From edick at idcomm.com Mon Oct 1 00:07:42 2001 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:19 2005 Subject: 8080 vs. 8080A References: <01ce01c14a18$b1bfc490$caef9a8d@ajp166> Message-ID: <003101c14a37$006106e0$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> I would never, Never, NEVER, in today's world, use an 8080 because of the multiple supplies. It wouldn't do much good to use an 8085 in an 8080 application, since the timing's different and the two are quite different. The 8085, at least, doesn't require three supplies. I don't know why they wasted all those pins on things like the pseudo-serial I/O and all those interrupts. Hardly anyone ever figured out how to use them well. It would have been more sensible to put the 8 address lines there and save the external latch and the strobe for it. see below, plz. Dick ----- Original Message ----- From: "ajp166" To: Sent: Sunday, September 30, 2001 7:15 PM Subject: Re: 8080 vs. 8080A > Track the clock through the logic... there is a divide by 2 in there. > You could be right about that. I'm just not motivated to trace it out. > > Also the 9080 250ns part was late in the game and hard to find. > Yeah, but it's what came on some of the boards I used. > > If you want an 8080 that was really fast use a 8085-5 (5mhz) > or the later 80c85-6(6mhz). the latter was a nice part as it > was CMOS. > I still have half a dozen or so of the iSBC 8024 boards. They used that puppy (8085-5). Like all Intel iSBC's, they do some things better than others, and they're not nearly as flexible as I'd like. > > I still have a potload of 8080s and 8085s and my design favorite > for small systems is the 8085 over the Z80. > Why? It's slower and requires more parts to support it. The only exception I can think of, and that's for really small applications, is the 8085+8755+8155/56+8185's for RAM. Nowadays, it makes more sense to sell those parts on eBay and hire a team to build your app with the proceeds. For what the small circuit with the 8085 will do, it's easier to use a 68HC705C9. That's the size of a quarter and has 16K ROM, + I/O +async I/O, timers, etc. and costs less than the stuff I mentioned before, in fact, less than any one of those IC's. An ATMEL flash version of the 875x supersets they offer is faster, cheaper, and easier to use as well. Almost any single chipper would be easier. The only reason to have any interest in those old CPU chips is for historical purposes. > > Allison > > -----Original Message----- > From: Richard Erlacher > To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org > Date: Sunday, September 30, 2001 8:23 PM > Subject: Re: 8080 vs. 8080A > > > >Well, Allison, it appears you're right. The AMD 9080 was the one with > the 250ns > >clock (4 MHz) period, now that I've looked a couple of references. > Thanks for > >clearing that up. > > > >However, that doesn't explain what's going on in my iSBC8020-4's. I'll > have to > >figure that one out. > > > >Dick > >----- Original Message ----- > >From: "ajp166" > >To: > >Sent: Sunday, September 30, 2001 5:12 PM > >Subject: Re: 8080 vs. 8080A > > > > > >> no, it was 2mhz. > >> > >> using 8224 the usual crystal was 18.435 (2.0483333*9). > >> there was a -1. -2 and -3 version of the part but the fastest was > 3mhz. > >> > >> I used to sell upD8080AF for NEC and I had to know my competition. > >> > >> Allison > >> > >> -----Original Message----- > >> From: Richard Erlacher > >> To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org > >> Date: Sunday, September 30, 2001 6:23 PM > >> Subject: Re: 8080 vs. 8080A > >> > >> > >> >BTW, the 8080 was a 2.5 MHz part, wasn't it? I've got a couple Intel > >> app-notes > >> >where they generate a baud-rate clock from 24.576 MHz and generate > the > >> CPU clock > >> >from that, at 2.4576 MHz for the CPU. That's on an i8080-2. > >> > > >> >Dick > >> > > >> >----- Original Message ----- > >> >From: "ajp166" > >> >To: > >> >Sent: Sunday, September 30, 2001 2:31 PM > >> >Subject: Re: 8080 vs. 8080A > >> > > >> > > >> >> Wrong! > >> >> > >> >> The I8080A is AS fast as the i8080. the i8080A-1 is faster but not > >> twice > >> >> as the fastest 8080[A] was only 3mhz and hte standard part was > 2mhz. > >> >> > >> >> Allison > >> >> > >> >> -----Original Message----- > >> >> From: John Galt > >> >> To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org > >> >> Date: Sunday, September 30, 2001 3:57 PM > >> >> Subject: Re: 8080 vs. 8080A > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> >"The i8080A is essentially twice as fast as the > >> >> > standard i8080 and COULD be used more easily with low-power logic > >> since > >> >> its > >> >> >demands aren't as stringent". > >> >> > > >> >> >Ok, that's a good start. > >> >> > > >> >> >But, I don't think "low power" TTL (transistor transistor logic) > had > >> >> >anything to do with the complexity of the code being executed on > the > >> >> chip. > >> >> >True? I had assumed > >> >> >that the references to the 8080 only being compatible > >> >> >with "low-power TTL" and the 8080A being compatible > >> >> >with "standard TTL" had something to do with the support chips > (Ram, > >> >> clock, > >> >> >etc) that could be used with the 8080 vs. the 8080A. > >> >> > > >> >> >Since I'm new to this mail list, let me explain why I would > >> >> >show up here and ask such a question to begin with. > >> >> > > >> >> >I'm a chip collector. I am trying to document the differences > >> between > >> >> the > >> >> >different early Intel microprocessors. Not worried about massive > >> >> detail, > >> >> >just the major differences (PMOS, vs. NMOS, vs. > >> >> >HMOS, clock speed, transistor count, etc). > >> >> > > >> >> >The only microprocessor that I don't have a good handle > >> >> >on is the 8080 and the difference between the 8080 and 8080A. > >> >> > > >> >> >I also know that the 8080 was introduced sometime > >> >> >around April 1974. I have not been able to find an > >> >> >introduction date for the 8080A. Was it introduced at > >> >> >the same time? Does anyone know? > >> >> > > >> >> >I also need an Intel C8080 or C8080-8 for my > >> >> >collection. If you have one, I want it. I have been looking > >> >> >for one for months and have not been able to find one. > >> >> >If you have either of these chips in good condition > >> >> >(no desoldered parts wanted), I'm offering 400.00 > >> >> >for the C8080-8 and 500.00 for a C8080. > >> >> > > >> >> >If you need a replacement for the C8080 or C8080-8 you sell me, > I'll > >> >> GIVE > >> >> >you a D8080A free as part of the > >> >> >deal. > >> >> > > >> >> >----- Original Message ----- > >> >> >From: "Richard Erlacher" > >> >> >To: > >> >> >Sent: Sunday, September 30, 2001 1:21 PM > >> >> >Subject: Re: 8080 vs. 8080A > >> >> > > >> >> > > >> >> >> This makes no sense at all, though it may be because I'm > >> >> misinterpreting > >> >> >the way > >> >> >> in which you've put it. > >> >> >> > >> >> >> I have Intel boards that come in versions with the i8080 and > also, > >> >> >> optionally,with the i8080A, and, aside from the clock frequency > and > >> >> memory > >> >> >> access times, they're identical. The i8080A is essentially > twice > >> as > >> >> fast > >> >> >as the > >> >> >> standard i8080 and COULD be used more easily with low-power > logic > >> >> since > >> >> >its > >> >> >> demands aren't as stringent. > >> >> >> > >> >> >> The i8080A will, AFAIK, replace the i8080 in all applications > >> without > >> >> ill > >> >> >> effects. > >> >> >> > >> >> >> BTW, please turn off "rich-text" mode in your email editor when > you > >> >> >compose > >> >> >> messages for this group, as some folks' mail readers can't > >> interpret > >> >> the > >> >> >> rich-text/HTML format. > >> >> >> > >> >> >> Dick > >> >> >> ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ > >> >> >> ----- Original Message ----- > >> >> >> From: John Galt > >> >> >> To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org > >> >> >> Sent: Sunday, September 30, 2001 10:17 AM > >> >> >> Subject: 8080 vs. 8080A > >> >> >> > >> >> >> > >> >> >> Can anyone here describe the technical differences between > >> >> >> an Intel 8080 and Intel 8080A CPU? > >> >> >> > >> >> >> The ONLY ref. I have been able to find seems to indicate that > there > >> >> was a > >> >> >bug in > >> >> >> the 8080 and as a result it would only work with low power TTL? > >> >> >> > >> >> >> The problem was fixed in the 8080A and it would work with > standard > >> >> TTL? > >> >> >> > >> >> >> Does this make sense to anyone? > >> >> >> > >> >> >> Could anyone put this into laymans terms for me? > >> >> >> > >> >> >> Thanks, > >> >> >> > >> >> >> George Phillips - gmphillips@earthlink.net > >> >> >> > >> >> > > >> >> > >> >> > >> > > >> > >> > > > > > > From jss at subatomix.com Mon Oct 1 01:39:42 2001 From: jss at subatomix.com (Jeffrey S. Sharp) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:21 2005 Subject: Squealing CRTs In-Reply-To: <440.674T1150T2495015optimus@canit.se> Message-ID: <20011001013750.G4044-100000@lepton.subatomix.com> On 1 Oct 2001, Iggy Drougge wrote: > What do you do about a squealing CRT? I've got this nice terminal > which is working, but it emits a high-pitched whine Don't all (most?) CRTs emit some form of whine? -- Jeffrey S. Sharp jss@subatomix.com From pete at dunnington.u-net.com Mon Oct 1 01:48:11 2001 From: pete at dunnington.u-net.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:21 2005 Subject: 8080 vs. 8080A In-Reply-To: "ajp166" "Re: 8080 vs. 8080A" (Sep 30, 22:42) References: <01e301c14a22$d617ec00$caef9a8d@ajp166> Message-ID: <10110010748.ZM1255@mindy.dunnington.u-net.com> On Sep 30, 22:42, ajp166 wrote: > From: Pete Turnbull > >Ah, then you'll know what the difference(s) was/were. While looking up > >8080A and 8080 (except all my 1976 and 1979 Intel Data Books say is that > >they're functionally and electrically compatible) I discovered that NEC > >made two versions, both called 8080A, but one with some enhancements. I > Ah no, not a V20 thing. The first version of the NEC 8080A was not fully > compatable at the hardware level. It was the interrupt/hold thing. Makes sense. Timing on the Intel part was a bit tricky, I seem to recall. Or maybe it just seemed that way to a beginner, at the time :-) But I just came across (while loooking for something completely different) a reference to a BCD subtract on the NEC part (or one of them). What was that about? -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager University of York From pete at dunnington.u-net.com Mon Oct 1 01:41:07 2001 From: pete at dunnington.u-net.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:21 2005 Subject: 8080 vs. 8080A In-Reply-To: ard@p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) "Re: 8080 vs. 8080A" (Oct 1, 2:01) References: Message-ID: <10110010741.ZM1249@mindy.dunnington.u-net.com> On Oct 1, 2:01, Tony Duell wrote: > > Sure you're not thinking of a Z80? The standard speed for the original Z80 > > parts was 2.5MHz (4MHz for Z80A and 6MHz for Z80H). > > Just a minor correction. I believe the Z80B is 6MHz and the Z80H 8MHz. SGS-Thomson list them as 6MHz and 8MHz now, but IIRC the Z80H was originally 6MHz. I could be mistaken, of course. -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager University of York From workstations at poczta.onet.pl Mon Oct 1 02:42:16 2001 From: workstations at poczta.onet.pl (Jacek Artymiak) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:21 2005 Subject: Still looking References: <200109291919.f8TJJse02445@narnia.int.dittman.net> Message-ID: <026c01c14a4c$97c40360$05ffa8c0@hx.com> > > 1x Digital Alpha 233 MHz 21064BB CPU > > 1x Digital Alpha 266 MHz 21164AA CPU > > Both of these are faster than the 21066A CPU. Perhaps you should look > for a motherboard for either of these processors instead of the 21066A > CPU. I did look for m/b for these, but they seem to be used only in AlphaStations/Server. If you know of an OEM board that takes them I'd be very interested to learn its part number/model name. Jacek Artymiak -- Zagraj z finalistkami Miss Polonia [ http://miss.onet.pl/start.html ] From hansp at aconit.org Mon Oct 1 03:17:37 2001 From: hansp at aconit.org (Hans B Pufal) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:21 2005 Subject: IBM ROM BASIC or lack thereof References: <20011001031140.PFCR5130.imf03bis.bellsouth.net@thegoodw> Message-ID: <3BB826A1.3040509@aconit.org> Glen Goodwin wrote: >>hard disk and floppy disk and then call INT 18h. Since there is no ROM >>basic, INT 18h points to a little bit of code that displays the No ROM >>BASIC message (as far as I can see this message is not in the IBM ROMs) >>and then halts the CPU. > This was the point to my original question: why would clone makers go to > the trouble of displaying the message and then halting the system, instead > of just *halting the system*? (Unless they were using stolen code.) Just > doesn't quite make sense . . . To tell the user what had happened? The code pointed to by Int 18H is responsible for printing that message and could be invoked from elsewhere than th BIOS boot sequence so it seems just user friendly to display some message if you are going to hang the system. Of course today you would get a BSOD - much more informative ;-) -- HBP From thompson at mail.athenet.net Mon Oct 1 03:29:15 2001 From: thompson at mail.athenet.net (Paul Thompson) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:21 2005 Subject: RS6000 7012-320H In-Reply-To: <857.674T900T1114385optimus@canit.se> Message-ID: On 1 Oct 2001, Iggy Drougge wrote: > Paul Thompson skrev: > > >There's probably an ethernet chip on the main board which just needs the > >AUI/BNC logic on the riser card added to work. You should be able to get > >a Microchannel enet card for cheap watching on ebay if you can't find the > >riser. > > OTOH, wouldn't there be some compatiblity issues WRT AIX if you just take any > MCA ethernet card? There'd have to be driver support. And there might be > compatibility issues WRT PS/2 cards, or so I've read on comp.sys.ibm.ps2. > There should be people with suitable cards in the abovementioned group. An RS/6000 compatible card was implied, if not actually stated. As long as you're not asking for 100MB it won't be atrociously expensive. -- From thompson at mail.athenet.net Mon Oct 1 03:29:15 2001 From: thompson at mail.athenet.net (Paul Thompson) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:21 2005 Subject: RS6000 7012-320H In-Reply-To: <857.674T900T1114385optimus@canit.se> Message-ID: On 1 Oct 2001, Iggy Drougge wrote: > Paul Thompson skrev: > > >There's probably an ethernet chip on the main board which just needs the > >AUI/BNC logic on the riser card added to work. You should be able to get > >a Microchannel enet card for cheap watching on ebay if you can't find the > >riser. > > OTOH, wouldn't there be some compatiblity issues WRT AIX if you just take any > MCA ethernet card? There'd have to be driver support. And there might be > compatibility issues WRT PS/2 cards, or so I've read on comp.sys.ibm.ps2. > There should be people with suitable cards in the abovementioned group. An RS/6000 compatible card was implied, if not actually stated. As long as you're not asking for 100MB it won't be atrociously expensive. -- From jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de Mon Oct 1 03:34:47 2001 From: jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de (jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:21 2005 Subject: Unsing other Tapedrive instead of TK50 In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <200110010834.KAA27698@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> On 1 Oct, lothar felten wrote: > i?ve got a VaxStation M38 with harddisk, but is has no drives. the > NetBSD-Install-HowTo says how to make boot-tapes (TK50). i could make a boot > tape with my (ix86) NetBSD computer, Use your x86 machine for diskless boot server. A net boot HowTo is at: http://www.de.netbsd.org/Documentation/network/netboot/ And for any problems regarding NetBSD on VAXen ask at the NetBSD port-vax mailinglist. There are more experts for this particular hard-/software combination. (Although many port-vax readers are also on classiccmp. ;-) ) > i also have an PDP-11/73, [...] > on a wbsite i found BSD 2.11 should run on this > pdp-11, but is it free? 2.11BSD will run on a 11/73. You need a free licence from SCO / Caldera / who ever owns the stuf now. Have a look at http://minnie.tuhs.org/PUPS/index.html If you got your licence you can request a copy of the PUPS / TUHS archive. Some PUPS volunteers are also able make TK50 boot tapes. (At least I will do for requests in Germany.) -- tsch??, Jochen Homepage: http://www.unixag-kl.fh-kl.de/~jkunz/ From kevin at xpuppy.freeserve.co.uk Mon Oct 1 03:55:12 2001 From: kevin at xpuppy.freeserve.co.uk (Kevin Murrell) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:21 2005 Subject: Plessey DEC QBUS and UNIBUS cards Message-ID: After much searching I have a configuration manual for many of the Q' and U' cards produced by Plessey for the PDP11. I haven't started scanning yet, but if anyone needs a particular page, let me know. The list of pages is on:- http://www.ps8computing.co.uk/PDP11/plessey.htm Kevin Murrell ------------- www.savience.com www.studenthealth.co.uk From jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de Mon Oct 1 04:44:25 2001 From: jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de (jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:21 2005 Subject: Still looking In-Reply-To: <026c01c14a4c$97c40360$05ffa8c0@hx.com> Message-ID: <200110010944.LAA27895@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> On 1 Oct, Jacek Artymiak wrote: > I did look for m/b for these, but they seem to be used only in > AlphaStations/Server. If you know of an OEM board that takes them I'd be > very interested to learn its part number/model name. Why do you restrict your search to OEM boards? If you really don't know what to do with your 233 MHz 21064BB CPU, give it to me. My AlphaStation 200 4/166 will be pleased to be upgraded to a 4/233. ;-) BTW: http://cgi.ebay.de/aw-cgi/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=1279989844 http://cgi.ebay.de/aw-cgi/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=1277302511 -- tsch??, Jochen Homepage: http://www.unixag-kl.fh-kl.de/~jkunz/ From foxvideo at wincom.net Mon Oct 1 05:18:58 2001 From: foxvideo at wincom.net (Charles E. Fox) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:21 2005 Subject: Squealing CRTs In-Reply-To: <440.674T1150T2495015optimus@canit.se> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20011001061355.00a75ad0@mail.wincom.net> At 04:09 AM 01/10/2001 +0100, you wrote: >Heller to everyone and Tony. ;-) >What do you do about a squealing CRT? I've got this nice terminal which is >working, but it emits a high-pitched whine which is not only unpleasant and >annoying, but quite scary, too. It feels as thoughit's going to blow in your >face any minute. >The terminal in question is a green-screen TECO VA120. > >-- >En ligne avec Thor 2.6a. > >Ky?suke: Jag heter Kurre, Kurre Carlsson! >Jag: Det heter du inte alls! Assuming the CRT doesn't have a crack in it, in which case it wont squeal long, it sounds like a horizontal output transformer that is vibrating at an audible frequency. You might try tightening any screws you find around the core of the H.O.T. (With the power off and the circuit discharged.) Regards Charlie Fox Chas E. Fox Video Productions 793 Argyle Rd. Windsor ON N8Y 3J8 foxvideo@wincom.net Check out: Camcorder Kindergarten at http://chasfoxvideo.com From dittman at dittman.net Mon Oct 1 06:21:57 2001 From: dittman at dittman.net (Eric Dittman) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:21 2005 Subject: Still looking In-Reply-To: from "Jacek Artymiak" at Oct 01, 2001 09:42:16 AM Message-ID: <200110011121.f91BLv616076@narnia.int.dittman.net> > > > 1x Digital Alpha 233 MHz 21064BB CPU > > > 1x Digital Alpha 266 MHz 21164AA CPU > > > > Both of these are faster than the 21066A CPU. Perhaps you should look > > for a motherboard for either of these processors instead of the 21066A > > CPU. > > I did look for m/b for these, but they seem to be used only in > AlphaStations/Server. If you know of an OEM board that takes them I'd be > very interested to learn its part number/model name. The 21064 should work in a PC64 and the 21164 should work in either an EB164 or PC164. I've got extra PC64, EB164, and PC164 motherboards but you're overseas so finding one nearer to you would probably be cheaper. -- Eric Dittman dittman@dittman.net Check out the DEC Enthusiasts Club at http://www.dittman.net/ From cmurillo at emtelsa.multi.net.co Mon Oct 1 06:15:02 2001 From: cmurillo at emtelsa.multi.net.co (Carlos Murillo) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:21 2005 Subject: 8080 vs. 8080A In-Reply-To: <003101c14a37$006106e0$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> References: <01ce01c14a18$b1bfc490$caef9a8d@ajp166> Message-ID: <3.0.2.32.20011001071502.01c3e0f4@obregon.multi.net.co> At 11:07 PM 9/30/01 -0600, you wrote: The >8085, at least, doesn't require three supplies. I don't know why they wasted >all those pins on things like the pseudo-serial I/O and all those interrupts. >Hardly anyone ever figured out how to use them well. It would have been more >sensible to put the 8 address lines there and save the external latch and the >strobe for it. Those irq's are exactly why I liked the 8085. Extremely simple to use. Appropriate for early embedded stuff. carlos. -------------------------------------------------------------- Carlos E. Murillo-Sanchez carlos_murillo@nospammers.ieee.org From rigdonj at intellistar.net Mon Oct 1 07:51:47 2001 From: rigdonj at intellistar.net (Joe) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:22 2005 Subject: Osborne/Kaypro disk help needed In-Reply-To: <20011001040045.PAGL3269.imf11bis.bellsouth.net@thegoodw> Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20011001085147.007aa650@mailhost.intellistar.net> Glen, 1. Are you sure that your Oz will only read single density? Most of the ones that I've found have been upgraded to read both SD and DD. 2. I have some Oz disks that I think are single density. I'll bring them over when I come. If you find something that will copy/create SD disks let me know! Joe At 11:59 PM 9/30/01 -0400, you wrote: >I snagged a very clean Osborne at the Junk Fest today but no disks. I >thought I could use 22disk on my Wintel box but then found out the Oz is >single density and this Wintel box won't write single-density. Okay, so I >can use MFDISK10 on my Kaypro 10 to generate a bootable Oz, disk right? >Well, MFDISK10 is missing in action. Hmm. So I found and downloaded >MFDISK10 from the 'net, put it on a Kaypro disk, ran the program, and got >as far as "use the arrow keys to move around," but the arrow keys do not >move the cursor, so I am unable to select a disk type from the menu. Hmm. >Broken arrow keys? So, I fired up WordStar and the arrow keys work fine in >WS. > >So, I need help in either: > >1 -- finding out why the arrow keys don't work in MFDISK10 >or >2 -- getting some other program to run on my Kaypro which will create Oz >disks >or >3 -- obtaining some Osborne disks (last choice) > >TIA, > >Glen >0/0 > > From edick at idcomm.com Mon Oct 1 08:35:31 2001 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:22 2005 Subject: 8080 vs. 8080A References: <10110010741.ZM1249@mindy.dunnington.u-net.com> Message-ID: <001201c14a7d$f0d8ec00$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> Zilog always listed the 'B' part as 6 MHz and the 'H' part as 8. Dick ----- Original Message ----- From: "Pete Turnbull" To: Sent: Monday, October 01, 2001 12:41 AM Subject: Re: 8080 vs. 8080A > On Oct 1, 2:01, Tony Duell wrote: > > > Sure you're not thinking of a Z80? The standard speed for the original > Z80 > > > parts was 2.5MHz (4MHz for Z80A and 6MHz for Z80H). > > > > Just a minor correction. I believe the Z80B is 6MHz and the Z80H 8MHz. > > SGS-Thomson list them as 6MHz and 8MHz now, but IIRC the Z80H was > originally 6MHz. I could be mistaken, of course. > > -- > Pete Peter Turnbull > Network Manager > University of York > > From DAW at yalepress3.unipress.yale.edu Mon Oct 1 10:48:14 2001 From: DAW at yalepress3.unipress.yale.edu (David Woyciesjes) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:22 2005 Subject: Unsing other Tapedrive instead of TK50 Message-ID: <9011A52E011ED311B4280004AC1BA6150146711A@yalepress3.unipress.yale.edu> Since you didn't mention it, I assume you don't have an external SCSI CD-ROM. DO you have an internal CD-ROM you could temporarily stick in the VS3100? I have NetBSD/VAX 1.5 on CD, and drop a copy in the mail to you possibly... --- David A Woyciesjes --- C & IS Support Specialist --- Yale University Press --- mailto:david.woyciesjes@yale.edu --- (203) 432-0953 --- ICQ # - 905818 ! -----Original Message----- ! From: Paul Thompson [mailto:thompson@mail.athenet.net] ! Sent: Sunday, September 30, 2001 10:36 PM ! To: Classiccmp ! Subject: Re: Unsing other Tapedrive instead of TK50 ! ! ! ! You can probably make a boot image on a SCSI hard drive for ! the Vaxstation ! from your intel box. I did this to make a system disk for a ! DECstation ! for which I had no tape drive. Just disklabel the disk and ! get the right ! files from the netbsd site and lay them on the drive with dd and you ! should be all set. You can install the rest of the distribution using ! FTP if you have a network. ! ! On Mon, 1 Oct 2001, lothar felten wrote: ! ! > hello, ! > i?ve got a VaxStation M38 with harddisk, but is has no drives. the ! > NetBSD-Install-HowTo says how to make boot-tapes (TK50). i ! > could make a boot ! > tape with my (ix86) NetBSD computer, but i have no ! > SCSI-TK50 tapedrive. From DAW at yalepress3.unipress.yale.edu Mon Oct 1 11:00:47 2001 From: DAW at yalepress3.unipress.yale.edu (David Woyciesjes) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:22 2005 Subject: DEC 21064 (was RE: Still looking) Message-ID: <9011A52E011ED311B4280004AC1BA6150146711B@yalepress3.unipress.yale.edu> ! The 21064 should work in a PC64 and the 21164 should work in either an ! EB164 or PC164. I've got extra PC64, EB164, and PC164 ! motherboards but ! you're overseas so finding one nearer to you would probably ! be cheaper. ! -- ! Eric Dittman Eric --- Here's a copy of a message I sent out a little while ago, didn't get any real info responses... If my procs would work in the PC64, could I get my hands on one (or two)? Would the PC64 fit in the AS200 case? If you have any other info too, that would be appreciated. THanks in advance... ... I have here a pair of EV4 21064 200MHz CPUs, p/n 21-35023-21. One was from an AlphaStation 200 4/100, (dead power supply, m/b seems to be dead), apparently an upgrade... I was wondering if there is a dual-processor motherboard I could use these on (and where to find one), or what other machines I could use them in... In my DEC3000 System Programmer's Reference, it says the DEC 3000/500X uses the 200MHz 21064. I assume this is the same (as I have above). If so, I could bump my 3000/400 from 133 MHz to 200MHz, right? Would any jumpers need to be changed? But a dual 200MHz motherboard would be a little more fun... --- David A Woyciesjes --- C & IS Support Specialist --- Yale University Press --- mailto:david.woyciesjes@yale.edu --- (203) 432-0953 --- ICQ # - 905818 From korpela at ssl.berkeley.edu Mon Oct 1 11:03:05 2001 From: korpela at ssl.berkeley.edu (Eric J. Korpela) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:22 2005 Subject: IBM ROM BASIC or lack thereof In-Reply-To: <15287.23999.641617.229416@phaduka.neurotica.com> from Dave McGuire at "Sep 30, 2001 02:00:31 pm" Message-ID: <200110011603.JAA00219@ellie.ssl.berkeley.edu> > On September 30, Fred Cisin (XenoSoft) wrote: > > OB_trivia: 1) what did GWBASIC stand for? > > Years ago, I heard somewhere that it stood for "Gee Whiz" BASIC, > though I've no idea why or even if this is accurate. That, IIRC, is the official line. There has been some speculation that GW stood for Gates, William. I've seen very little evidence to support that assertion. Eric From curt at atari-history.com Mon Oct 1 12:51:57 2001 From: curt at atari-history.com (Curt Vendel) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:22 2005 Subject: Leverage Host Software for VMS References: <9011A52E011ED311B4280004AC1BA6150146711A@yalepress3.unipress.yale.edu> Message-ID: <004901c14aa1$c4583630$9f35ff0a@cvendel> Hi All.... I'm in the process of cleaning and packing to move. I located a software package I used to use about 6 years ago called Leverage Host. It is a software package for VMS 5.5.2 and higher that allows a VMS server to look and act like a Novell 3.12 fileserver to clients connected to it over Ethernet. Its a really great package and comes in excpetionally handy if you need to migrate VMS files off of a server and save it to a PC and to pull files from the Internet to a PC, then copy them over to the VMS server if it doesn't have TCP/IP installed. This is a complete package, all original manuals, the license key and the media is only on CDROM, I don't know what ever happened to the TK tape. If anyone is interested, $25 plus shipping. Curt From foo at siconic.com Mon Oct 1 13:24:40 2001 From: foo at siconic.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:22 2005 Subject: IBM ROM BASIC or lack thereof In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Sun, 30 Sep 2001, Russ Blakeman wrote: > If memory serves the one real thing that cloners couldn't duplicate, maybe > due to copyright, was the ROM BASIC but that they'd duplicated everything > else including the BIOS or a very good part of it. That pretty much led to > IBM losing a lot in the PC market. It should be pointed out that MS owned the copyright to BASIC, which is probably why it wasn't included on clones. They would have had to obtain a license from MS. > Now why they kept the BASIC on ROM even into the PS/2 line is beyond > me. It served no real purpose that late in life when most people had > moved on to C++ and Pascal and it was rare to find someone that used > BASIC or BASICA - especially since the cassette port was gone as of > the XT 5160. Too bad it isn't still there. It was a simple way for people (especially kids) to be introduced to programming. Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org From foo at siconic.com Mon Oct 1 13:36:09 2001 From: foo at siconic.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:22 2005 Subject: Boot Disk Needed In-Reply-To: <000801c149e3$32daf9e0$ee0fe541@oemcomputer> Message-ID: On Sun, 30 Sep 2001, N Kent Loudon wrote: > I am in need of a 5 1/4" floppy boot disk for an AST Premium 386/25 > running DOS 6.22. Any help or advice would be appreciated. Drop to DOS on any machine with a 5.25" drive you have access to. Type: format /u /s a: (Assumes the drive in the AST has the same density specs as the one you are formatting the disk on; also, the DOS version will be whatever is loaded on the machine you make the disk with) Enjoy your new boot disk. Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org From foo at siconic.com Mon Oct 1 13:44:59 2001 From: foo at siconic.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:22 2005 Subject: IBM ROM BASIC or lack thereof In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Sun, 30 Sep 2001, Fred Cisin (XenoSoft) wrote: > OB_trivia: 1) what did GWBASIC stand for? Gee Whiz (This was a Nerd Trivia Challenge question :) > 2) why? and/or when and how was it named? ? Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org From rhblakeman at kih.net Mon Oct 1 15:02:52 2001 From: rhblakeman at kih.net (Russ Blakeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:22 2005 Subject: IBM ROM BASIC or lack thereof In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Yep, and they couldn't copy the BASIC without lawsuits or being licensed, which would have cost them more (in either repsect) making their machines cost more, hence they left that out and included an on-disk BASIC interpreter, known as GW-BASIC. I'm not even sure if MS was responsible for the GW version either. Been a long time since I muddled with most of the old BASICs, or for that fact Pascal, COBOL, etc. No time for programming with all the hardware work anymore. -> -----Original Message----- -> From: owner-classiccmp@classiccmp.org -> [mailto:owner-classiccmp@classiccmp.org]On Behalf Of Sellam Ismail -> Sent: Monday, October 01, 2001 1:25 PM -> To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org -> Subject: RE: IBM ROM BASIC or lack thereof -> -> -> On Sun, 30 Sep 2001, Russ Blakeman wrote: -> -> > If memory serves the one real thing that cloners couldn't -> duplicate, maybe -> > due to copyright, was the ROM BASIC but that they'd duplicated -> everything -> > else including the BIOS or a very good part of it. That pretty -> much led to -> > IBM losing a lot in the PC market. -> -> It should be pointed out that MS owned the copyright to BASIC, which is -> probably why it wasn't included on clones. They would have had to obtain -> a license from MS. -> -> > Now why they kept the BASIC on ROM even into the PS/2 line is beyond -> > me. It served no real purpose that late in life when most people had -> > moved on to C++ and Pascal and it was rare to find someone that used -> > BASIC or BASICA - especially since the cassette port was gone as of -> > the XT 5160. -> -> Too bad it isn't still there. It was a simple way for people (especially -> kids) to be introduced to programming. -> -> Sellam Ismail Vintage -> Computer Festival -> ----------------------------------------------------------------- -> ------------- -> International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org From dpeschel at eskimo.com Mon Oct 1 15:11:28 2001 From: dpeschel at eskimo.com (Derek Peschel) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:22 2005 Subject: IBM ROM BASIC or lack thereof In-Reply-To: ; from foo@siconic.com on Mon, Oct 01, 2001 at 11:24:40AM -0700 References: Message-ID: <20011001131128.A14699@eskimo.eskimo.com> On Mon, Oct 01, 2001 at 11:24:40AM -0700, Sellam Ismail wrote: > On Sun, 30 Sep 2001, Russ Blakeman wrote: > > If memory serves the one real thing that cloners couldn't duplicate, maybe > > due to copyright, was the ROM BASIC but that they'd duplicated everything > > else including the BIOS or a very good part of it. That pretty much led to > > IBM losing a lot in the PC market. > > It should be pointed out that MS owned the copyright to BASIC, which is > probably why it wasn't included on clones. They would have had to obtain > a license from MS. So does that mean that BASICA (ROM + disk additions) and GWBASIC (disk only) shared features or even code? -- Derek From pat at transarc.ibm.com Mon Oct 1 15:42:35 2001 From: pat at transarc.ibm.com (Pat Barron) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:22 2005 Subject: XDS Sigma 5 at CMU Message-ID: The Sigma 5 at CMU (which had at one time been used for NMR studies) will shortly be moved to the CMHC. There was a story in today's Pittsburgh Post-Gazette about it, which you can see here: http://www.post-gazette.com/healthscience/20011001sigma1001p5.asp --Pat. From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Oct 1 15:31:24 2001 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:22 2005 Subject: ZX Spectrum internals (Was: ZX81 kits) In-Reply-To: <1125.674T2500T1596033optimus@canit.se> from "Iggy Drougge" at Oct 1, 1 02:39:50 am Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1835 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20011001/bed05f57/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Oct 1 15:38:26 2001 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:22 2005 Subject: IBM ROM BASIC or lack thereof In-Reply-To: <1323.674T2850T1806151optimus@canit.se> from "Iggy Drougge" at Oct 1, 1 03:00:57 am Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1587 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20011001/16c6d74a/attachment.ksh From dogas at bellsouth.net Mon Oct 1 16:06:15 2001 From: dogas at bellsouth.net (Mike) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:22 2005 Subject: Central Florida Junk Fest report. References: <01ce01c14a18$b1bfc490$caef9a8d@ajp166> <3.0.2.32.20011001071502.01c3e0f4@obregon.multi.net.co> Message-ID: <011c01c14abc$e9436620$88881442@DOMAIN> It was small. Myself and 4 other people came with loads of classic computers and I had a fun morning with the similarly afflicted. Nice seeing y'all! I scored a tonne of stuff including: Dolphin BRD FDC-78 computer w/2 8" Drives & software Several EXORcisor boards including: 3 x Micromodule 2 cpus Moto Stand Alone Computer MEK6800D2 MEX6820 MEX68P12 a few Moto memory boards TRS-80 Model 4 128k and software LDOS Computer News 80 1- 17 TRS-80 Model 100 TRS-80 Model 102 with that funky little Holmes interface Joe talked about earlier Boxed Vic-20 Prolog M823 6800 System Analyzer Tektronics 1750a Emulator Card and VMS support software First Macintosh Portable with a nice Apple Case Old timey Televideo 950 Terminal Micro Design MDX-2 Expansion Interface for TRS-80 Model 1 Tektronics probe panel for my 8002a my Exidy Sorcerer II mb (loaner returned while there...) Books including: AMD 2900 Family products Microcomputer Systems Principles Featuring the 6502/Kim TAB's Computer Technician's Handbook z-80 and 8080 Assembly Language Programming Apple ][ Basic Programming Reference Manual Osborne's Apple ][ classic reference Dr. Dobbs z-80 Toolbook few Rainbow magazines. and a few SAMS 8080 bugbooks later rerouted to Joe Everything cost a total of $ - .05. Yes, I made five cents on the trip. Joe and I both wanted the Prolog analyzer so we flipped a coin for it. I won *and* kept his nickel! ;-P Apparently, edicts from spouses forbid heavy competition for the 'bulky stuff' and created a driven sales incentive. ;) While there, I was able to dump^h^h^h^htrade^h^h^h^h^hfind new homes for: SMS 1000 Model 50 pdp clone Commodore CBM 8032 Heathkit H-89 HP 150-II Intel 820a uScope Sun Dat Drive an Un-Rommed Exidy Rom Pac circut board. Sinclair 1500 & Carrier AC controller Grid OEM'd Norand Auto PC Timeworks tray for the Timex 1000 ...and stuff that I couldn't even give away and had to pack back up at the end of the half day: a few Olympia ETX-II computers Amiga 2000 Robbie Robot Burroghs Calculator Micromodule rackable cardcage Kaypro 2 Kaypro 4 Oscilliscope DecServer 200/mc a few Coco 2 computers There were several Grid, Apple, IBM, HP computers, a few AT&T 3B2s, and others, books, software, and test gear as well that I wasn't able to bring home. I took a few digital pics and will post them shortly. Thanks for hosting it Glen and let's do this again. Got new toys to play with. Later! ;) - Mike: dogas@bellsouth.net From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Oct 1 15:45:24 2001 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:22 2005 Subject: Squealing CRTs In-Reply-To: <440.674T1150T2495015optimus@canit.se> from "Iggy Drougge" at Oct 1, 1 04:09:23 am Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1243 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20011001/e53a4a30/attachment.ksh From rhblakeman at kih.net Mon Oct 1 16:16:53 2001 From: rhblakeman at kih.net (Russ Blakeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:22 2005 Subject: IBM ROM BASIC or lack thereof In-Reply-To: <20011001131128.A14699@eskimo.eskimo.com> Message-ID: Not sure but GW would usually run programs made for BASICA without any problems that I ever saw. Of course there's a certain amount of a standard to the BASIC language itself that leads to that for most things. -> -----Original Message----- -> From: owner-classiccmp@classiccmp.org -> [mailto:owner-classiccmp@classiccmp.org]On Behalf Of Derek Peschel -> Sent: Monday, October 01, 2001 3:11 PM -> To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org -> Subject: Re: IBM ROM BASIC or lack thereof -> -> -> On Mon, Oct 01, 2001 at 11:24:40AM -0700, Sellam Ismail wrote: -> > On Sun, 30 Sep 2001, Russ Blakeman wrote: -> -> > > If memory serves the one real thing that cloners couldn't -> duplicate, maybe -> > > due to copyright, was the ROM BASIC but that they'd -> duplicated everything -> > > else including the BIOS or a very good part of it. That -> pretty much led to -> > > IBM losing a lot in the PC market. -> > -> > It should be pointed out that MS owned the copyright to BASIC, which is -> > probably why it wasn't included on clones. They would have -> had to obtain -> > a license from MS. -> -> So does that mean that BASICA (ROM + disk additions) and GWBASIC -> (disk only) -> shared features or even code? -> -> -- Derek -> From optimus at canit.se Mon Oct 1 17:04:57 2001 From: optimus at canit.se (Iggy Drougge) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:22 2005 Subject: TRW finds, 8" floppies, 68k PC In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <720.674T2850T13846811optimus@canit.se> Mike Ford skrev: >>>2 boxes of Maxell FD1 single sided, boxes are marked CPM/UG vol 1-50 and >>>1 box of Maxell FD1 single sided, box is marked PICO-NET. >> >>I know this sounds far-fetched, but I've got two 8" floppy drives named >>Piccolo made by Regnecentralen of Denmark. They're intended for a CP/M >>computer which I never got, apparently bearing the same name. >>I don't think they're "piccolo" at all, but I suppose that's just me. =/ >>I wonder if there could be any connection... >Maybe they are for a Nambian system? Are they green? His floppies or my drives? The drives are mostly brown. -- En ligne avec Thor 2.6a. "I may have invented Ctrl-Alt-Del, but Microsoft made it popular." --David Bradley From optimus at canit.se Mon Oct 1 05:59:43 2001 From: optimus at canit.se (Iggy Drougge) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:22 2005 Subject: Bad bad DECstation In-Reply-To: <15287.61181.573015.459198@phaduka.neurotica.com> Message-ID: <1049.674T2150T7195379optimus@canit.se> Dave McGuire skrev: >On October 1, Iggy Drougge wrote: >> OTOH, the main strength of the DECstation is that it's a graphical >> workstation. Running it through a terminal would mean losing the graphics, >> and running it then wouldn't make much sense (it might at home, but we've >> got enough machines without any proper uses at the UG anyway =). > Uhh, what? > No way. > *A* strength of a DECstation is that it's a graphical workstation. >But it's certainly quite useful as a headless machine as well. I'm >not running any anymore, but as recently as a year ago I had a few >headless DECstations doing a great deal of real work. As I said, if it was mine, I'd run it (I'm running a 5000/200 headless right now), but in the environment at the UG, its purpose was that of a graphical client. We already have a lot of things to connect terminals to, and another one would just be a waste of electricity. -- En ligne avec Thor 2.6a. Vi m?ste vara r?dda om varandra - det ?r det enda reciproka pronomen vi har. From optimus at canit.se Mon Oct 1 17:17:55 2001 From: optimus at canit.se (Iggy Drougge) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:22 2005 Subject: Squealing CRTs In-Reply-To: <20011001013750.G4044-100000@lepton.subatomix.com> Message-ID: <441.674T2750T13976619optimus@canit.se> Jeffrey S. Sharp skrev: >On 1 Oct 2001, Iggy Drougge wrote: >> What do you do about a squealing CRT? I've got this nice terminal >> which is working, but it emits a high-pitched whine >Don't all (most?) CRTs emit some form of whine? Depends on your ears. =) While it's true that there is an audible squeal in most (all) CRTs, this is a really annoying one. -- En ligne avec Thor 2.6a. A conservative is a worshipper of dead radicals. From optimus at canit.se Mon Oct 1 17:19:25 2001 From: optimus at canit.se (Iggy Drougge) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:22 2005 Subject: 8080 vs. 8080A In-Reply-To: <10110010741.ZM1249@mindy.dunnington.u-net.com> Message-ID: <348.674T1250T13994747optimus@canit.se> Pete Turnbull skrev: >SGS-Thomson list them as 6MHz and 8MHz now, but IIRC the Z80H was >originally 6MHz. I could be mistaken, of course. Do ST make Z80s as well as 68000s? How unfaithful. -- En ligne avec Thor 2.6a. G? med i SUGA, Swedish Usergroup of Amiga! WWW: http://swedish.usergroup.amiga.tm/ BBS: 08-6582572, telnet://sua.ath.cx:42512 From cisin at xenosoft.com Mon Oct 1 17:15:46 2001 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin (XenoSoft)) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:22 2005 Subject: IBM ROM BASIC or lack thereof In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Mon, 1 Oct 2001, Russ Blakeman wrote: > cost more, hence they left that out and included an on-disk BASIC > interpreter, known as GW-BASIC. I'm not even sure if MS was responsible for > the GW version either. Yes. MICROS~1 provided GWBASIC to all of the clone NMS-DOS licensees. It is ALMOST identical to BASICA. -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin@xenosoft.com DogEars From optimus at canit.se Mon Oct 1 17:51:41 2001 From: optimus at canit.se (Iggy Drougge) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:22 2005 Subject: ZX Spectrum internals (Was: ZX81 kits) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <2303.674T2050T14316199optimus@canit.se> Tony Duell skrev: >> Tony Duell skrev: >> >> >As I've said a couple of times before, I can make a video circuit with >> >somewhat better capabilities than the ZX81's built-in video (40*25 text, >> >block grapghics, colour) in 2 or 3 chips. Add another chip or so to >> >encode the outputs to PAL (although I'd probably prefer to feed the RGB >> >signals into a TV's SCART socket these days...) >> >> What chips would you use? I assume that the Speccy uses one chip for its >> entire video generation, but where would you split the functions? >I should have said _standard_ chips. Once you start allowing ULAs (as the >ZX81, Spectrum, Oric, etc all used) then it's easy to do video in a >couple of chips. Of course I don't expect you to be making your own ULAs. =) I just wondered if you'd take some off-the-shelf VDU controller or something a bit more open-ended. >Didn't we go through this a couple of weeks back? The 2 chips I would >start with are an SAA5243 Teletext display chip (or an SAA5245 for the >States) and an 8K*8 static RAM (6264). You need to get a 6MHz clock from >somewhere (maybe another chip for that, if you can't also use it for the >CPU clock in some way) and maybe you want to buffer the video output lines. Teletext? That's a funny idea. >> (update a few minutes later, aren't off-line readers a wonderful thing?) >> I went and opened up my own seemingly-dead Spectrum... Wait, that's no ZX= >> 81. >> I've been thinking about SZ Spectrums all the time. >> Oh well, I might just ask anyway, since I've opened it up... >> What is that chip next to the Z80? It's labelled PCF1306P. >If it's another 40 pin chip, then that's the custom ULA chip that >includes most of the glue logic. Is that like a lot of 74138s or something? >> And why is there a switch glued on top of the Z80 with wires going to the >> character ROM? Since it's a localised character ROM piggybacked on top of= >> the >> one soldered to the motherboard, could it be for switching charsets? >Does the Spectrum really have a separate character generator ROM. Doesn't >sound right to me... I wouldn't know, but this is the chip which somehow enables Swedish characters. Is it a patched BASIC ROM? -- En ligne avec Thor 2.6a. The most useful program will be continually improved until it is useless. From optimus at canit.se Mon Oct 1 18:19:53 2001 From: optimus at canit.se (Iggy Drougge) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:22 2005 Subject: IBM ROM BASIC or lack thereof In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <542.675T2650T195899optimus@canit.se> Sellam Ismail skrev: >> me. It served no real purpose that late in life when most people had >> moved on to C++ and Pascal and it was rare to find someone that used >> BASIC or BASICA - especially since the cassette port was gone as of >> the XT 5160. >Too bad it isn't still there. It was a simple way for people (especially >kids) to be introduced to programming. Isn't QBASIC delivered even to this day with Windows systems? That's a much nicer basic, and it features online help, which is great for kids. -- En ligne avec Thor 2.6a. From optimus at canit.se Mon Oct 1 18:08:09 2001 From: optimus at canit.se (Iggy Drougge) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:22 2005 Subject: Found WANG boards Message-ID: <626.675T450T84035optimus@canit.se> While visiting my electronics shop, I found a collection of largish cards (circa 15?25 cm?) made by WANG. There were at least two video cards - one IBM mono emulator card and one low-res cards. There was another card with two BNCs and a switch, could be a grpaihcs card, too. There was a winchester controller as well, and some card which I couldn't identify. If anyone's really interested, I'll see how much he wants (probably very little, they're sold as scrap). -- En ligne avec Thor 2.6a. G? med i SUGA, Swedish Usergroup of Amiga! WWW: http://swedish.usergroup.amiga.tm/ BBS: 08-6582572, telnet sua.ath.cx, port 42512. From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Mon Oct 1 17:23:57 2001 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (ajp166) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:22 2005 Subject: 8080 vs. 8080A Message-ID: <005101c14ac9$89b113d0$73ef9a8d@ajp166> From: Carlos Murillo >At 11:07 PM 9/30/01 -0600, you wrote: >The >>8085, at least, doesn't require three supplies. I don't know why they wasted >>all those pins on things like the pseudo-serial I/O and all those interrupts. >>Hardly anyone ever figured out how to use them well. It would have been more >>sensible to put the 8 address lines there and save the external latch and the >>strobe for it. > >Those irq's are exactly why I liked the 8085. Extremely simple >to use. Appropriate for early embedded stuff. that is the exact reason why the 8085 was successful. As to the comment about the SIO/SID pins they were used by the TU58 for serial data and were very hand for when a few bits of IO were needed for simple things. Allison From cisin at xenosoft.com Mon Oct 1 17:35:33 2001 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin (XenoSoft)) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:22 2005 Subject: IBM ROM BASIC or lack thereof In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Mon, 1 Oct 2001, Russ Blakeman wrote: > Not sure but GW would usually run programs made for BASICA without any > problems that I ever saw. Of course there's a certain amount of a standard > to the BASIC language itself that leads to that for most things. MOST micros used MICROSOFT BASIC, thus leading to a perception of more of a standard than really existed. Even those that went with their own BASIC usually switched to MICROSOFT for the second version (TRS-80 Level I v Level II (MICROSOFT) BASIC, "INTEGER" v "APPLESOFT" (MICROSOFT), etc.) But when Kurtz and Kemeny first saw "street BASIC", they were aghast. They were so horrified, that they came out with "TRUE BASIC". "LET X = 3" DOES help a little bit over "X = 3" towards getting first time beginners to understand the non-commutative nature of assignement (why you can't say 3 = X). But after Kurtz and Kemeny created BASIC ("Beginners All purpose Symbolic Instruction Code") at Dartmouth in the mid 1960s, they NEVER EVEN LOOKED AT ANY OF THE COMMERCIAL BASICS until the 1980s! Talk about parental abandonment! They abdicated any rights that they might have had towards it. -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin@xenosoft.com DogEars From f.bonomi at agora.stm.it Mon Oct 1 17:40:38 2001 From: f.bonomi at agora.stm.it (Francesco Bonomi) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:22 2005 Subject: blank 11/16" paper tape rolls available. Message-ID: <5.0.0.25.0.20011002003142.00a400c0@pop.stm.it> Hi all If anyone is interested I have some rolls of paper tape available for shipping cost, if anyone has a good use for them (i.e. anyone has a punch in need of paper) Must be rather standard, where used in a Telex, but due to my ignorance in tape I will try to describe as precisely as possible. characteristics: Tape width 11/16" (ca 17.9 mm) tape length: unknown (should I unroll one of them ?) color (white-ish) Rolls diameter abt 7"" (18 cm) The "hole" of the rolls (about 2" or 5 cm in diameter) has a "square wave" profile to be better mounted. Anyone interested? Only drawback: I am in Italy, shipping will not be cheap... ciao Francesco From gmphillips at earthlink.net Mon Oct 1 17:40:02 2001 From: gmphillips at earthlink.net (John Galt) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:22 2005 Subject: Altair 8800a on EBAY Message-ID: <001201c14aca$0348dac0$0100a8c0@sys1> http://cgi.ebay.com/aw-cgi/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=1280822959 I have been considering buying one of these machines as an investment. While I am a computer programmer by trade, I have no clue how to operate or program one of these things which really does not matter since I would be buying it as an investment. Any comments concerning what would be considered a "fair price" on this machine would be appreciated. I seem to recall seeing one sell on EBAY a few months ago for around 1800.00 but I don't think it had a monitor and drives. My guess (given the current economic situation) is that 1800.00 - 2200.00 might be sufficient to win the bid on this box. Comments? -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20011001/bbc5176b/attachment.html From mikeford at socal.rr.com Mon Oct 1 18:07:28 2001 From: mikeford at socal.rr.com (Mike Ford) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:22 2005 Subject: TRW finds, 8" floppies, 68k PC In-Reply-To: <720.674T2850T13846811optimus@canit.se> References: Message-ID: >Mike Ford skrev: > >>>>2 boxes of Maxell FD1 single sided, boxes are marked CPM/UG vol 1-50 and >>>>1 box of Maxell FD1 single sided, box is marked PICO-NET. >>> >>>I know this sounds far-fetched, but I've got two 8" floppy drives named >>>Piccolo made by Regnecentralen of Denmark. They're intended for a CP/M >>>computer which I never got, apparently bearing the same name. >>>I don't think they're "piccolo" at all, but I suppose that's just me. =/ >>>I wonder if there could be any connection... > >>Maybe they are for a Nambian system? Are they green? > >His floppies or my drives? The drives are mostly brown. Nambians are always green so that rules that out. From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Oct 1 15:50:09 2001 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:22 2005 Subject: IBM ROM BASIC or lack thereof In-Reply-To: <20011001031140.PFCR5130.imf03bis.bellsouth.net@thegoodw> from "Glen Goodwin" at Sep 30, 1 11:09:56 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1480 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20011001/46d68d18/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Oct 1 15:52:18 2001 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:22 2005 Subject: 8080 vs. 8080A In-Reply-To: <10110010741.ZM1249@mindy.dunnington.u-net.com> from "Pete Turnbull" at Oct 1, 1 06:41:07 am Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 352 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20011001/36bfb028/attachment.ksh From louiss at gate.net Mon Oct 1 18:34:25 2001 From: louiss at gate.net (Louis Schulman) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:22 2005 Subject: Altair 8800a on EBAY In-Reply-To: <001201c14aca$0348dac0$0100a8c0@sys1> Message-ID: <200110012334.TAA18492@tisch.mail.mindspring.net> On Mon, 1 Oct 2001 18:40:02 -0400, John Galt wrote: #I have been considering buying one of these machines as an investment. #While I am a computer programmer by trade, I have no clue how to operate #or program one of these things which really does not matter since I would #be buying it as an investment. Well, if you are considering this as an investment, I would also consider rubies, pork belly futures, penny stocks, and going to Las Vegas. You could call this an investment, but it would really be nothing but a crap shoot. If we are seriously talking investments, this isn't it. There is no basis to assume anything about future value. Other forms of antique electronics have not become that valuable. You can still buy a working Atwater-Kent radio for a reasonable price. Anyone who follows eBay can tell you that prices go up and down. Most have gone down in the last year. You can barely give away a Kaypro. So, buy it to enjoy it. Otherwise, I'd look to real investments to make money. JMO Louis From gmphillips at earthlink.net Mon Oct 1 19:29:58 2001 From: gmphillips at earthlink.net (John Galt) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:22 2005 Subject: Altair 8800a on EBAY References: <200110012334.TAA18492@tisch.mail.mindspring.net> Message-ID: <000f01c14ad9$5f2651b0$0100a8c0@sys1> I see where you are coming from, but given the recent return of some of my "real" investments, it's hard to imagine this computer being any worse;) Thanks, George Phillips Well, my "real" investments have not been doing ----- Original Message ----- From: "Louis Schulman" To: Sent: Monday, October 01, 2001 7:34 PM Subject: Re: Altair 8800a on EBAY > On Mon, 1 Oct 2001 18:40:02 -0400, John Galt wrote: > > #I have been considering buying one of these machines as an investment. > #While I am a computer programmer by trade, I have no clue how to operate > #or program one of these things which really does not matter since I would > #be buying it as an investment. > > Well, if you are considering this as an investment, I would also consider rubies, pork belly futures, penny > stocks, and going to Las Vegas. You could call this an investment, but it would really be nothing but a crap > shoot. If we are seriously talking investments, this isn't it. > > There is no basis to assume anything about future value. Other forms of antique electronics have not > become that valuable. You can still buy a working Atwater-Kent radio for a reasonable price. > > Anyone who follows eBay can tell you that prices go up and down. Most have gone down in the last year. > You can barely give away a Kaypro. > > So, buy it to enjoy it. Otherwise, I'd look to real investments to make money. > > JMO > > Louis > From greg at cosc.canterbury.ac.nz Mon Oct 1 19:42:35 2001 From: greg at cosc.canterbury.ac.nz (Greg Ewing) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:22 2005 Subject: 8080 vs. 8080A In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <200110020042.MAA05585@s454.cosc.canterbury.ac.nz> ard@p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell): > I've never seen a Z80H specified as anything other than 8MHz. By the way, what happened to the letters C to G? Greg Ewing, Computer Science Dept, +--------------------------------------+ University of Canterbury, | A citizen of NewZealandCorp, a | Christchurch, New Zealand | wholly-owned subsidiary of USA Inc. | greg@cosc.canterbury.ac.nz +--------------------------------------+ From foo at siconic.com Mon Oct 1 19:55:26 2001 From: foo at siconic.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:22 2005 Subject: Altair 8800a on EBAY In-Reply-To: <001201c14aca$0348dac0$0100a8c0@sys1> Message-ID: On Mon, 1 Oct 2001, John Galt wrote: > I have been considering buying one of these machines as an investment. > While I am a computer programmer by trade, I have no clue how to > operate or program one of these things which really does not matter > since I would be buying it as an investment. A tip: don't buy it as an investment. Buy it for the historical value or the enjoyment you would get out of owning it. If you want an investment, look towards the stock market. Right now is a great time to buy stocks. > Any comments concerning what would be considered a "fair price" on > this machine would be appreciated. I seem to recall seeing one sell > on EBAY a few months ago for around 1800.00 but I don't think it had a > monitor and drives. What are YOU willing to pay? If the seller agrees (and no other bidders out-bid you) then that's a "fair price". > My guess (given the current economic situation) is that 1800.00 - > 2200.00 might be sufficient to win the bid on this box. And in my opinion, over-valued. Unlike stocks, which are probably currently under-valued, and will probably have a greater rate of return. I'm not an investment advisor, but I play one on ClassicCmp. Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org From at258 at osfn.org Mon Oct 1 20:13:26 2001 From: at258 at osfn.org (Merle K. Peirce) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:22 2005 Subject: Found WANG boards In-Reply-To: <626.675T450T84035optimus@canit.se> Message-ID: Sounds like a set of early Wang-Pc cards that converted an archiver to a PC On 2 Oct 2001, Iggy Drougge wrote: > While visiting my electronics shop, I found a collection of largish cards > (circa 15×25 cm?) made by WANG. There were at least two video cards - one IBM > mono emulator card and one low-res cards. There was another card with two BNCs > and a switch, could be a grpaihcs card, too. There was a winchester > controller as well, and some card which I couldn't identify. > If anyone's really interested, I'll see how much he wants (probably very > little, they're sold as scrap). > > -- > En ligne avec Thor 2.6a. > > Gå med i SUGA, Swedish Usergroup of Amiga! > WWW: http://swedish.usergroup.amiga.tm/ > BBS: 08-6582572, telnet sua.ath.cx, port 42512. > > M. K. Peirce Rhode Island Computer Museum, Inc. Shady Lea, Rhode Island "Casta est quam nemo rogavit." - Ovid From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Oct 1 18:46:36 2001 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:22 2005 Subject: ZX Spectrum internals (Was: ZX81 kits) In-Reply-To: <2303.674T2050T14316199optimus@canit.se> from "Iggy Drougge" at Oct 1, 1 11:51:41 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 2276 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20011002/9e981a59/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Oct 1 18:48:03 2001 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:22 2005 Subject: Found WANG boards In-Reply-To: <626.675T450T84035optimus@canit.se> from "Iggy Drougge" at Oct 2, 1 00:08:09 am Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 360 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20011002/bd8bf8a7/attachment.ksh From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Mon Oct 1 20:46:09 2001 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (ajp166) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:22 2005 Subject: Altair 8800a on EBAY Message-ID: <00a501c14ae4$d61761a0$73ef9a8d@ajp166> Hi, Please understand I dont collect for economic gain. I'd have to hit the big one to pay back for some of the machines I built new back when. I collect to have the machine I could not afford back when but wanted to experiment with. So happens along the way some of them became interesting as so called rare items. To me my Altair was a relly poor machine and the NorthStar I replaced it with was far superior, yet the first is collectable even though it was truly a peice of junk compared to even the IMSAI. Anywho I'll look when time permits. Allison -----Original Message----- From: John Galt To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org Date: Monday, October 01, 2001 9:15 PM Subject: Re: Altair 8800a on EBAY >I see where you are coming from, but given the recent return of some of my >"real" investments, it's hard to imagine >this computer being any worse;) > >Thanks, > >George Phillips > > > >Well, my "real" investments have not been doing >----- Original Message ----- >From: "Louis Schulman" >To: >Sent: Monday, October 01, 2001 7:34 PM >Subject: Re: Altair 8800a on EBAY > > >> On Mon, 1 Oct 2001 18:40:02 -0400, John Galt wrote: >> >> #I have been considering buying one of these machines as an investment. >> #While I am a computer programmer by trade, I have no clue how to operate >> #or program one of these things which really does not matter since I would >> #be buying it as an investment. >> >> Well, if you are considering this as an investment, I would also consider >rubies, pork belly futures, penny >> stocks, and going to Las Vegas. You could call this an investment, but it >would really be nothing but a crap >> shoot. If we are seriously talking investments, this isn't it. >> >> There is no basis to assume anything about future value. Other forms of >antique electronics have not >> become that valuable. You can still buy a working Atwater-Kent radio for >a reasonable price. >> >> Anyone who follows eBay can tell you that prices go up and down. Most >have gone down in the last year. >> You can barely give away a Kaypro. >> >> So, buy it to enjoy it. Otherwise, I'd look to real investments to make >money. >> >> JMO >> >> Louis >> > From greg at cosc.canterbury.ac.nz Mon Oct 1 20:50:47 2001 From: greg at cosc.canterbury.ac.nz (Greg Ewing) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:22 2005 Subject: Anyone ever heard of a Canon BX-1? Message-ID: <200110020150.NAA05608@s454.cosc.canterbury.ac.nz> I have recently acquired a Canon BX-1 Desktop Computer. It's a self-contained unit incorporating an alpha keyboard, a single-line alpha display, thermal printer and 5.25" disk drive. From the markings on the keyboard it seems to be programmed in some dialect of Basic. Does anyone know where I can find any information about this machine? A web search turned up exactly one page mentioning it, which didn't tell me much. It didn't work at all when I first switched it on. I found and repaired a fault in the power supply, but that doesn't seem to be the end of its problems. At switch-on, it beeps, and then starts flashing a row of up-arrows in the display. There is *almost* no response from the keyboard, except that after about 20 or so keystrokes it flashes something like KEYBOARD OV'FLO very briefly and then goes back to the up-arrows. Is there anyone out there with any experience with one of these things who can tell me whether it's trying to signal some sort of error condition with the up- arrows, or is it just totally insane? Thanks for any help, Greg Ewing, Computer Science Dept, +--------------------------------------+ University of Canterbury, | A citizen of NewZealandCorp, a | Christchurch, New Zealand | wholly-owned subsidiary of USA Inc. | greg@cosc.canterbury.ac.nz +--------------------------------------+ From KenzieM at sympatico.ca Mon Oct 1 20:51:07 2001 From: KenzieM at sympatico.ca (Mike Kenzie) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:22 2005 Subject: Alpha Architecture Docs References: <5.0.0.25.2.20010706134729.0246eeb0@209.185.79.193> Message-ID: <003d01c14ae4$c0edbf90$0101a8c0@sympatico.ca> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Chuck McManis" To: Cc: ; Sent: Friday, July 06, 2001 4:53 PM Subject: FT: Alpha Architecture Docs > The Alpha was started by DEC in 1988 as a replacement for the VAX, it > extends the address space to 64 bits and switches from a CISC architecture > to a RISC architecture. > > I've got a copy the Alpha Architecture Reference Manual (AARM) and the > Alpha Architecture Handbook (AAH) which combined give you everything you > need to know about the Alpha. > > They're extras. I Picked up a Multia the other day and the previous owner tossed in the Schematics ( for 2 revisions). I will attempt to make scans when I get access to a scanner. From mythtech at Mac.com Mon Oct 1 21:29:04 2001 From: mythtech at Mac.com (Chris) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:22 2005 Subject: Central Florida Junk Fest report. Message-ID: >...and stuff that I couldn't even give away and had to pack back up at the >end of the half day: > > Robbie Robot Which Robbie the Robot would this be? I am thinking of that thing used by grade school kids to learn about programming (forget the language name... Topal?). The idea was to write simple programs that got the robot to move around. Is it THAT Robbie? > Oscilliscope A working Oscilliscope? I have been wanting to lay my hands on one for some time... just for play/learning, so I haven't wanted to spend any real money on one (but have been hoping to find one at a garage sale or similar). What would you want for it? (And depending on the Robbie, what about it?) -chris From acme_ent at bellsouth.net Mon Oct 1 23:16:07 2001 From: acme_ent at bellsouth.net (Glen Goodwin) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:22 2005 Subject: IBM ROM BASIC or lack thereof Message-ID: <20011002041753.IHKX27853.imf01bis.bellsouth.net@thegoodw> I wrote: > > This was the point to my original question: why would clone makers go to > > the trouble of displaying the message and then halting the system, instead > > of just *halting the system*? (Unless they were using stolen code.) Just > > doesn't quite make sense . . . Hans replied: > To tell the user what had happened? > The code pointed to by Int 18H is responsible for printing that message > and could be invoked from elsewhere than th BIOS boot sequence so it > seems just user friendly to display some message if you are going to > hang the system. "No ROM BASIC" does not tell the user what happened. "No bootable device found" would be more helpful. > Of course today you would get a BSOD - much more informative ;-) Yes, thank God for Bill Gates ;>) Glen 0/0 From acme_ent at bellsouth.net Mon Oct 1 23:29:45 2001 From: acme_ent at bellsouth.net (Glen Goodwin) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:22 2005 Subject: Boot Disk Needed Message-ID: <20011002043131.FQPV2937.imf17bis.bellsouth.net@thegoodw> > Drop to DOS on any machine with a 5.25" drive you have access to. Type: > > format /u /s a: Okay Sellam, I'll bite -- what's the /u parameter? Glen 0/0 From acme_ent at bellsouth.net Mon Oct 1 23:42:31 2001 From: acme_ent at bellsouth.net (Glen Goodwin) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:23 2005 Subject: Central Florida Junk Fest report. Message-ID: <20011002044417.IRDG9996.imf07bis.bellsouth.net@thegoodw> > It was small. Myself and 4 other people came with loads of classic computers > and I had a fun morning with the similarly afflicted. Nice seeing y'all! > > I scored a tonne of stuff including: [snip] > While there, I was able to dump^h^h^h^htrade^h^h^h^h^hfind new homes for: [snip] > ...and stuff that I couldn't even give away and had to pack back up at the > end of the half day: > > a few Olympia ETX-II computers > Amiga 2000 > Robbie Robot > Burroghs Calculator [snip] &(&%$@#$#^%$!!! You had a Burroughs calculator and you didn't tell me about it? > There were several Grid, Apple, IBM, HP computers, a few AT&T 3B2s, and > others, books, software, and test gear as well that I wasn't able to bring > home. > > I took a few digital pics and will post them shortly. Cool! Keep us posted! > Thanks for hosting it Glen and let's do this again. Got new toys to play > with. Later! Thanks for being there! Glen 0/0 From acme_ent at bellsouth.net Mon Oct 1 23:50:49 2001 From: acme_ent at bellsouth.net (Glen Goodwin) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:23 2005 Subject: IBM ROM BASIC or lack thereof Message-ID: <20011002045234.JISG13606.imf03bis.bellsouth.net@thegoodw> > Isn't QBASIC delivered even to this day with Windows systems? That's a much > nicer basic, and it features online help, which is great for kids. No BASIC of any kind from Win95 on up. Glen 0/0 From acme_ent at bellsouth.net Tue Oct 2 00:00:45 2001 From: acme_ent at bellsouth.net (Glen Goodwin) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:23 2005 Subject: IBM ROM BASIC or lack thereof Message-ID: <20011002050231.IFII11373.imf11bis.bellsouth.net@thegoodw> Tony Duell wrote: > Since they never did provide BASIC they had to make INT 18 do something > (remember an application program could, in theory, call that interrupt). > Since that interrupt should have entered ROM BASIC, the most sensible > thing to do was to print that there was no ROM BASIC and then halt the > CPU. Since "they never did provide BASIC" then there was *always* "no ROM BASIC." That's like stopping the machine with a message stating "no printer." Why not display something understandable to a common user, such as "no bootable device?" Glen 0/0 From jrasite at eoni.com Tue Oct 2 00:21:54 2001 From: jrasite at eoni.com (Jim Arnott) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:23 2005 Subject: Central Florida Junk Fest report. References: Message-ID: <3BB94EEF.25916BC2@eoni.com> LOGO jim Chris wrote: > Which Robbie the Robot would this be? I am thinking of that thing used by > grade school kids to learn about programming (forget the language name... > Topal?). From vance at ikickass.org Tue Oct 2 00:34:19 2001 From: vance at ikickass.org (Absurdly Obtuse) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:23 2005 Subject: DECserver 700 Message-ID: Hey there. I was wondering if someone could help me break into the privileged mode on my DECserver 700 without the password. Do I have to remove the RAM, the battery, or something? Thanks. Peace... Sridhar From jss at subatomix.com Tue Oct 2 01:07:10 2001 From: jss at subatomix.com (Jeffrey S. Sharp) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:23 2005 Subject: Squealing CRTs In-Reply-To: <441.674T2750T13976619optimus@canit.se> Message-ID: <20011002010350.J6031-100000@lepton.subatomix.com> On 1 Oct 2001, Iggy Drougge wrote: > > Don't all (most?) CRTs emit some form of whine? > > Depends on your ears. =) I've gotten used to it over the years, but if I go from silence to having a monitor on, I can still notice it. -- Jeffrey S. Sharp jss@subatomix.com From dittman at dittman.net Tue Oct 2 01:16:08 2001 From: dittman at dittman.net (Eric Dittman) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:23 2005 Subject: DECserver 700 In-Reply-To: from "Absurdly Obtuse" at Oct 02, 2001 01:34:19 AM Message-ID: <200110020616.f926G9j18415@narnia.int.dittman.net> > Hey there. I was wondering if someone could help me break into the > privileged mode on my DECserver 700 without the password. Do I have to > remove the RAM, the battery, or something? Thanks. Look in the manual for the factory reset. It involves holding the reset button in while plugging in the power cord, then releasing the button when the display shows "E", if I remember correctly. -- Eric Dittman dittman@dittman.net Check out the DEC Enthusiasts Club at http://www.dittman.net/ From Antonio.Carlini at riverstonenet.com Tue Oct 2 01:21:34 2001 From: Antonio.Carlini at riverstonenet.com (Carlini, Antonio) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:23 2005 Subject: DECserver 700 Message-ID: <3820E2042B6ED5118DC200D0B78EDC47066168@exc-reo1> Just in case: The default password at the "#" prompt is access The default privileged password is system Otherwise, I'll see if I have the manual around somewhere to dig out the set-to-factory-defaults sequence. Antonio > -----Original Message----- > From: Absurdly Obtuse [mailto:vance@ikickass.org] > Sent: Tuesday, October 02, 2001 6:34 AM > To: Classic Computers Mailing List > Subject: DECserver 700 > > > > Hey there. I was wondering if someone could help me break into the > privileged mode on my DECserver 700 without the password. Do > I have to > remove the RAM, the battery, or something? Thanks. > > Peace... Sridhar > > > From dpeschel at eskimo.com Tue Oct 2 01:40:25 2001 From: dpeschel at eskimo.com (Derek Peschel) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:23 2005 Subject: IBM ROM BASIC or lack thereof In-Reply-To: <20011002050231.IFII11373.imf11bis.bellsouth.net@thegoodw>; from acme_ent@bellsouth.net on Tue, Oct 02, 2001 at 01:00:45AM -0400 References: <20011002050231.IFII11373.imf11bis.bellsouth.net@thegoodw> Message-ID: <20011001234024.A14357@eskimo.eskimo.com> On Tue, Oct 02, 2001 at 01:00:45AM -0400, Glen Goodwin wrote: > Tony Duell wrote: > > > Since they never did provide BASIC they had to make INT 18 do something > > (remember an application program could, in theory, call that interrupt). > > Since that interrupt should have entered ROM BASIC, the most sensible > > thing to do was to print that there was no ROM BASIC and then halt the > > CPU. > > Since "they never did provide BASIC" then there was *always* "no ROM > BASIC." That's like stopping the machine with a message stating "no > printer." Why not display something understandable to a common user, such > as "no bootable device?" Of course that makes much more sense. Someone (I think Iggy) pointed out that that's exactly what modern BIOSes do. I wonder if any code tries to call INT 18h after the system was running? (I hope that's not the way BASICA works.) If you did, a message saying "No ROM BASIC" would be much clearer than one saying "No bootable device". But I'm sure most of the time INT 18h got called at boot time, so I would still vote for a "No bootable device" message. -- Derek From pete at dunnington.u-net.com Mon Oct 1 18:16:57 2001 From: pete at dunnington.u-net.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:23 2005 Subject: ZX Spectrum internals (Was: ZX81 kits) In-Reply-To: ard@p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) "Re: ZX Spectrum internals (Was: ZX81 kits)" (Oct 1, 21:31) References: Message-ID: <10110020016.ZM1734@mindy.dunnington.u-net.com> On Oct 1, 21:31, Tony Duell wrote: > > I've been thinking about SZ Spectrums all the time. > > Oh well, I might just ask anyway, since I've opened it up... > > What is that chip next to the Z80? It's labelled PCF1306P. > > If it's another 40 pin chip, then that's the custom ULA chip that > includes most of the glue logic. If it's a 28-pin chip it's the ROM, a 23128, IC5. The ULA is the other 40-pin chip, IC1, near the modulator. It may have different numbers depending on the revision. There's more than one ROM version as well. > > And why is there a switch glued on top of the Z80 with wires going to the > > character ROM? Since it's a localised character ROM piggybacked on top of= > > the > > one soldered to the motherboard, could it be for switching charsets? > > Does the Spectrum really have a separate character generator ROM. Doesn't > sound right to me... It's not a character generator, it's just code. The screen memory is part of the main DRAM and accessed directly by the ULA to drive the video. I imagine the switch is to select different code versions. The thing I like most about the Spectrum service manual (apart from the inclusion of a proper schematic and other diagrams) is the fault-finding list. Most such lists begin with mundane things like checking the fuse. The Spectrum begins with: "TV appears dead. Smoke appears" and describes additional symptoms as "TR4 shorted. TR4 blows again". -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager University of York From geoffr at zipcon.net Tue Oct 2 02:07:20 2001 From: geoffr at zipcon.net (Geoff Reed) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:23 2005 Subject: Boot Disk Needed In-Reply-To: <20011002043131.FQPV2937.imf17bis.bellsouth.net@thegoodw> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20011002000652.00a3ecc0@mail.zipcon.net> /u = Unconditional, it will do a real format, as opposed to quick format At 12:29 AM 10/2/01 -0400, you wrote: > > Drop to DOS on any machine with a 5.25" drive you have access to. Type: > > > > format /u /s a: > >Okay Sellam, I'll bite -- what's the /u parameter? > >Glen >0/0 From marvin at rain.org Tue Oct 2 02:25:40 2001 From: marvin at rain.org (Marvin Johnston) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:23 2005 Subject: Boot Disk Needed References: <5.1.0.14.2.20011002000652.00a3ecc0@mail.zipcon.net> Message-ID: <3BB96BF4.21165391@rain.org> Geoff Reed wrote: > > /u = Unconditional, it will do a real format, as opposed to quick format IIRC, /u = Unconditional is correct, but what it does is to not "save" the disk contents, i.e. unformat will recover the contents of a floppy that has been accidentally formatted unless the /u is used. I usually use the /u because it gets the job done faster. > > At 12:29 AM 10/2/01 -0400, you wrote: > > > Drop to DOS on any machine with a 5.25" drive you have access to. Type: > > > > > > format /u /s a: > > > >Okay Sellam, I'll bite -- what's the /u parameter? > > > >Glen > >0/0 From Lee.Davison at merlincommunications.com Tue Oct 2 02:44:29 2001 From: Lee.Davison at merlincommunications.com (Davison, Lee) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:23 2005 Subject: Boot Disk Needed Message-ID: <707AA588EE28D311BCD50090276D7D0002146DCE@BUSH02> > /u = Unconditional, it will do a real format, as opposed to > quick format > /U - unconditional, prevents checking of sectors for read errors before formatting them. This is the only way to format unformatted or non MSDOS disks or to overwrite any blocks on MSDOS disks that are marked as bad. Lee. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- ---- This email is intended only for the above named addressee(s). The information contained in this email may contain information which is confidential. The views expressed in this email are personal to the sender and do not in any way reflect the views of the company. If you have received this email and you are not a named addressee please delete it from your system and contact Merlin Communications International IT Department on +44 20 7344 5888. _____________________________________________________________________ This message has been checked for all known viruses by Star Internet delivered through the MessageLabs Virus Scanning Service. For further information visit http://www.star.net.uk/stats.asp or alternatively call Star Internet for details on the Virus Scanning Service. From foo at siconic.com Tue Oct 2 03:32:49 2001 From: foo at siconic.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:23 2005 Subject: Boot Disk Needed In-Reply-To: <20011002043131.FQPV2937.imf17bis.bellsouth.net@thegoodw> Message-ID: On Tue, 2 Oct 2001, Glen Goodwin wrote: > > Drop to DOS on any machine with a 5.25" drive you have access to. Type: > > > > format /u /s a: > > Okay Sellam, I'll bite -- what's the /u parameter? Format "unconditionally". I.E. don't try to check the disk to see if it's already formatted and then do a quick format if it is (which simply erases the directory track and creates an unformat area in case you decided you made a mistake). This is a feature beginning with, I believe, DOS 6.0. I prefer to really format my disks when I issue a format statement, and not just assume all sectors on the disk are good. Another ill-conceived default feature instated by the worst company in the world. Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org From tniemann at msn.com Tue Oct 2 05:27:56 2001 From: tniemann at msn.com (Tony Niemann) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:23 2005 Subject: Power connectors Message-ID: Hans.... I may be wrong in my explanation to the following question you posed but I will give it a shot.....You said: I don't know any reason why the system has to be keyed, I always assumed the US development of keyed plugs was triggered by old DC systems (since in DC Eq. it is necersarry to know the orientation), but not a new addition. Strange, we dropped all orientationwhen switching to AC (with Protective Ground). Could anyone give give a reason why the system has to be keyed _IF_ a Protective Ground is included (other than define the Protective Ground pin) If you hook an scope up circuit such as a TV and hook the ground probe up to signal ground but you have the plug reversed the circuit will short out and you will blow the device you are testing. That is because you just provided a current path to frame ground for the signal which you thought was signal ground. TV repairman who have used scopes have done this more than once. Tony Niemann 2606 Merriwood Avenue Louisville Kentucky 40299 tniemann@msn.com 502-267-9233 -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: winmail.dat Type: application/ms-tnef Size: 4292 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20011002/cc50c077/winmail.bin From mythtech at Mac.com Tue Oct 2 08:14:57 2001 From: mythtech at Mac.com (Chris) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:23 2005 Subject: Central Florida Junk Fest report. Message-ID: >LOGO YEAH... that was the language (logo, topal... hey this goes back to the 4th grade, I am lucky I remembered playing with it at all) :-) -chris From cmurillo at emtelsa.multi.net.co Tue Oct 2 06:56:52 2001 From: cmurillo at emtelsa.multi.net.co (Carlos Murillo) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:23 2005 Subject: Boot Disk Needed In-Reply-To: <20011002043131.FQPV2937.imf17bis.bellsouth.net@thegoodw> Message-ID: <3.0.2.32.20011002075652.01c6f990@obregon.multi.net.co> Tell "format" _not_ to try to save any "unformat" info. carlos. At 12:29 AM 10/2/01 -0400, you wrote: >> Drop to DOS on any machine with a 5.25" drive you have access to. Type: >> >> format /u /s a: > >Okay Sellam, I'll bite -- what's the /u parameter? > >Glen >0/0 > > -------------------------------------------------------------- Carlos E. Murillo-Sanchez carlos_murillo@nospammers.ieee.org From DAW at yalepress3.unipress.yale.edu Tue Oct 2 09:25:49 2001 From: DAW at yalepress3.unipress.yale.edu (David Woyciesjes) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:23 2005 Subject: CT Junk Fest? (was RE: Central FL Computer Junk Fest) Message-ID: <9011A52E011ED311B4280004AC1BA61501467123@yalepress3.unipress.yale.edu> ! From: Joe [mailto:rigdonj@intellistar.net] ! ! At 10:33 AM 9/28/01 -0400, you wrote: ! >Hmmm, is there going to be one up here around Connecticut sometime? ! ! Sure, if you'll organize it. ! ! Joe ! Okay then, what's involved with one of these festivals? Can someone who organized one of the other fests e-mail me with the info? --- David A Woyciesjes --- C & IS Support Specialist --- Yale University Press --- mailto:david.woyciesjes@yale.edu --- (203) 432-0953 --- ICQ # - 905818 From jhfine at idirect.com Tue Oct 2 09:23:14 2001 From: jhfine at idirect.com (Jerome Fine) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:23 2005 Subject: Central Florida Junk Fest report. References: <01ce01c14a18$b1bfc490$caef9a8d@ajp166> <3.0.2.32.20011001071502.01c3e0f4@obregon.multi.net.co> <011c01c14abc$e9436620$88881442@DOMAIN> Message-ID: <3BB9CDD2.CF4A11B1@idirect.com> >Mike wrote: > It was small. Myself and 4 other people came with loads of classic computers > and I had a fun morning with the similarly afflicted. Nice seeing y'all! > [Snip] > While there, I was able to dump^h^h^h^htrade^h^h^h^h^hfind new homes for: > SMS 1000 Model 50 pdp clone > Mike: dogas@bellsouth.net Jerome Fine replies: Somewhere I seem to remember a manual for the SMS 1000. I have no idea which model it is for. I also have an SMS 1000 (which is the model I presume the manual is for - if I can find it - don't use it really any more since a BA23 is far more useful) with one 8" RX03 like floppy and built in hard drive (maybe about 20 MBytes). BOTH drives are MSCP devices. There are 5 quad slots, probably all ABAB. If there was not manual, eventually I could make a copy - it is very large - about 2" thick! Sincerely yours, Jerome Fine From jfoust at threedee.com Tue Oct 2 10:01:51 2001 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:23 2005 Subject: Odd VT100 question In-Reply-To: References: <200109281454.f8SEsss00553@bg-tc-ppp1657.monmouth.com> <3BB48040.E9BBA738@idirect.com> Message-ID: <4.3.2.7.0.20011002100104.00e71b20@pc> At 12:44 PM 9/28/01 -0700, Mike Ford wrote: >>Bad management, no vision. The VT103 supply barely was enough >>for the 11/23 and was designed to handle stuff like hasp >>printing at IBM shops via RSX11-S downloaded apps with network booting. > >What about the Terak? I think base Teraks were about $20,000 circa 1979. Not quite for the hobby market. - John From jimmiejimjim at hotmail.com Tue Oct 2 11:25:29 2001 From: jimmiejimjim at hotmail.com (JimmieJimJim James) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:23 2005 Subject: ASCII Terminal Giveaway - Ottawa Canada Message-ID: I've got a used ASCII Terminal, with detached keyboard for whoever is the first to contact me to take it away. (wife + messy basement = get rid of unused "junk"). I'm in the west end of Ottawa, Ontario, Canada. If interested, contact me directly via email: jimmiejimjim@hotmail.com _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp From cisin at xenosoft.com Tue Oct 2 12:04:59 2001 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin (XenoSoft)) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:23 2005 Subject: Boot Disk Needed In-Reply-To: <3BB96BF4.21165391@rain.org> Message-ID: On Tue, 2 Oct 2001, Marvin Johnston wrote: > > /u = Unconditional, it will do a real format, as opposed to quick format > IIRC, /u = Unconditional is correct, but what it does is to not "save" > the disk contents, i.e. unformat will recover the contents of a floppy > that has been accidentally formatted unless the /u is used. I usually > use the /u because it gets the job done faster. /U (do a REAL format) is faster for you than /Q (DON'T do a real format, just write an empty directory) ?? Would you care to post some measured times for how much faster it is? -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin@xenosoft.com From twentech at mercatel.nl Tue Oct 2 11:55:46 2001 From: twentech at mercatel.nl (Edward P. Woldendorp) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:23 2005 Subject: Philips machines (and AMT DAPs) Message-ID: <008c01c14b65$0140f960$af7debc2@y1q9w1> Mr. Fox, For information on the Philips minicomputers from the 1970's have a look at: http://home.debitel.net/user/groener1/comp_045.htm#Serien I am looking for a P857 computer myself. If you would find one, please let me know. Good luck. Edward P. Woldendorp 7602 ALMELO the Netherlands phone: +310546-873134 or 873135 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20011002/ba7162c6/attachment.html From mikeford at socal.rr.com Tue Oct 2 11:11:06 2001 From: mikeford at socal.rr.com (Mike Ford) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:23 2005 Subject: Altair 8800a on EBAY In-Reply-To: <001201c14aca$0348dac0$0100a8c0@sys1> Message-ID: > http://cgi.ebay.com/aw-cgi/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=1280822959 I >have been considering buying one of these machines as an investment. >While I am a computer programmer My guess is that prices will stay flat for a few more years, then rapidly drop to about 5% of current levels. From gkicomputers at yahoo.com Tue Oct 2 12:35:37 2001 From: gkicomputers at yahoo.com (steve) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:23 2005 Subject: Altair 8800a on EBAY In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20011002173537.82847.qmail@web12407.mail.yahoo.com> --- Sellam Ismail wrote: > Unlike stocks, which are probably currently > under-valued, and will > probably have a greater rate of return. > I doubt it, major blue chip companies like GE are still selling 2 to 3 times above their historical average value (relative to their earnings, or p/e ratio), so there still is a long way down just to reach an "average" historical value, and typically the cycle goes the other way for 5 to 10 years (where the selling price is way below the historic average value). So stocks don't look like a very good investment for the next 20 years or so. Its hard to predict with Altairs, I know someone who collects erector sets and some of these sell for thousands, and thats for sets that were made in the thousands every year for decades. An Altair is much rarer then this, but who the heck knows what the future value is going to be. Generally, people who make money on collections are people who never give it a thought as they are collecting, it just happens that one day they realize they can retire on the sale of their Barbie collection. steve __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Listen to your Yahoo! Mail messages from any phone. http://phone.yahoo.com From rmeenaks at olf.com Tue Oct 2 13:31:22 2001 From: rmeenaks at olf.com (Ram Meenakshisundaram) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:23 2005 Subject: Semi OT: Radio Shack Armatron & May '85 issue of Radio-Electronics Message-ID: <3BBA07FA.54674E9E@olf.com> Hi, I am planning on converting the Radio Shack Armatron to run off the parallel port of a PeeCee but need the plans to do it. I found the following site that contains the conversion needed for an Atari at: http://www.bitsofthepast.com/atari/arm.html The May '85 Radio-Electronics has the necessary instructions, sooo I was wondering if someone would be kind enought to either scan or mail me the article. Thanks, Ram -- ,,,, /'^'\ ( o o ) -oOOO--(_)--OOOo------------------------------------- | Ram Meenakshisundaram | | Senior Software Engineer | | OpenLink Financial Inc | | .oooO Phone: (516) 227-6600 x267 | | ( ) Oooo. Email: rmeenaks@olf.com | ---\ (----( )-------------------------------------- \_) ) / (_/ From mythtech at Mac.com Tue Oct 2 13:54:53 2001 From: mythtech at Mac.com (Chris) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:23 2005 Subject: Boot Disk Needed Message-ID: >/U (do a REAL format) is faster for you than >/Q (DON'T do a real format, just write an empty directory) ?? > >Would you care to post some measured times for how much faster it is? Speed will be HIGHLY dependant on what size disk it is. A 360k disk formats with /u fairly fast, and although it is STILL quicker to do /q, it isn't a huge difference... however, when doing a 1.4 disk, it cam be the difference between over a minute and under 10 seconds. /q is basically the same as doing "del *.*", it doesn't reformat the disk at all, it just rewrites the FAT so the disk thinks it is blank, the fastest way to clear a disk is "format a: /q /u"... UNLESS there are only a few items on it, then del *.* might edge it out Also, with all this /u business... be careful when doing that on 5.25" disks in a high density drive. If you put a DD disk in, and do format /u, it will NOT warn you that it is going to attempt to format a DD disk as HD. In MS DOS, when you format on a HD 5.25 drive, it automatically tries to format HD... you need to specify the format size (or use /4) to format 360k... leaving off the /u will warn you that the format is different then what you are about to try. Unfortuantly, leaving off the /u ALSO fails to remap bad sectors, AND saves the unformat info adding a few more seconds onto the disk format. None of this warning business applies to 3.5" drives, they will detect the HD vs DD disk, and format correctly... so with those it is safe to always use /u if you want to. -chris From marvin at rain.org Tue Oct 2 14:02:54 2001 From: marvin at rain.org (Marvin Johnston) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:23 2005 Subject: Boot Disk Needed References: Message-ID: <3BBA0F5E.580B740E@rain.org> No real times, just subjective. Also, I do not use the /q switch and the times I referred to were a comparison between "format a: /s" vs "format a: /s /u". "Fred Cisin (XenoSoft)" wrote: > > On Tue, 2 Oct 2001, Marvin Johnston wrote: > > > /u = Unconditional, it will do a real format, as opposed to quick format > > IIRC, /u = Unconditional is correct, but what it does is to not "save" > > the disk contents, i.e. unformat will recover the contents of a floppy > > that has been accidentally formatted unless the /u is used. I usually > > use the /u because it gets the job done faster. > > /U (do a REAL format) is faster for you than > /Q (DON'T do a real format, just write an empty directory) ?? > > Would you care to post some measured times for how much faster it is? > > -- > Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin@xenosoft.com From dogas at bellsouth.net Tue Oct 2 14:03:37 2001 From: dogas at bellsouth.net (Mike) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:23 2005 Subject: Central Florida Junk Fest report. References: <01ce01c14a18$b1bfc490$caef9a8d@ajp166> <3.0.2.32.20011001071502.01c3e0f4@obregon.multi.net.co> <011c01c14abc$e9436620$88881442@DOMAIN> Message-ID: <00b401c14b74$f3459e00$5162d6d1@DOMAIN> > I took a few digital pics and will post them shortly. Well, my cheezy digital cam strikes again though is still a few years away from qualifying as a topic for this list... The pics didn't come out very well with alot of cc gear hiding in the shade, but here they are: http://personal.lig.bellsouth.net/lig/d/o/dogas/Jf1.jpg http://personal.lig.bellsouth.net/lig/d/o/dogas/Jf2.jpg http://personal.lig.bellsouth.net/lig/d/o/dogas/Jf3.jpg > ;) > - Mike: dogas@bellsouth.net From pechter at bg-tc-ppp1328.monmouth.com Tue Oct 2 14:08:02 2001 From: pechter at bg-tc-ppp1328.monmouth.com (Bill Pechter) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:23 2005 Subject: IBM ROM BASIC or lack thereof In-Reply-To: <20011002050231.IFII11373.imf11bis.bellsouth.net@thegoodw> from Glen Goodwin at "Oct 2, 2001 01:00:45 am" Message-ID: <200110021908.f92J82q10031@bg-tc-ppp1328.monmouth.com> > Tony Duell wrote: > > > Since they never did provide BASIC they had to make INT 18 do something > > (remember an application program could, in theory, call that interrupt). > > Since that interrupt should have entered ROM BASIC, the most sensible > > thing to do was to print that there was no ROM BASIC and then halt the > > CPU. > > Since "they never did provide BASIC" then there was *always* "no ROM > BASIC." That's like stopping the machine with a message stating "no > printer." Why not display something understandable to a common user, such > as "no bootable device?" > > Glen > 0/0 Like the keyboard error hit F1 to continue if they've got no keyboard connected. Plug in the keyboard live any they could smoke the machine... Great move. It's ok if you just left a book on the keyboard... though Bill -- d|i|g|i|t|a|l had it THEN. Don't you wish you could still buy it now! bpechter@shell.monmouth.com|pechter@pechter.dyndns.org From donm at cts.com Tue Oct 2 14:27:39 2001 From: donm at cts.com (Don Maslin) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:23 2005 Subject: Boot Disk Needed In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20011002000652.00a3ecc0@mail.zipcon.net> Message-ID: On Tue, 2 Oct 2001, Geoff Reed wrote: > /u = Unconditional, it will do a real format, as opposed to quick format It also does not save UNFORMAT data. - don > At 12:29 AM 10/2/01 -0400, you wrote: > > > Drop to DOS on any machine with a 5.25" drive you have access to. Type: > > > > > > format /u /s a: > > > >Okay Sellam, I'll bite -- what's the /u parameter? > > > >Glen > >0/0 > > From mythtech at Mac.com Tue Oct 2 15:06:20 2001 From: mythtech at Mac.com (Chris) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:23 2005 Subject: Semi OT: Radio Shack Armatron & May '85 issue of Radio-Electronics Message-ID: >I am planning on converting the Radio Shack Armatron to run off the >parallel port >of a PeeCee but need the plans to do it. I found the following site >that contains the conversion >needed for an Atari at: > >http://www.bitsofthepast.com/atari/arm.html > >The May '85 Radio-Electronics has the necessary instructions, sooo I was > >wondering if someone would be kind enought to either scan or mail me the > >article. I hate to sound like an AOL'er, but ME TOO! (that is, email me the directions too)... I have never thought of doing this, but it certainly would make my old armatron WAY more fun. (Humm... now I am going to have to pull it out and see if I can hook it up to my Lego Mindstorm... toss a remote control car body to the bottom, and I can terrorize my cat for hours!) -chris From millerbj at umich.edu Tue Oct 2 15:18:17 2001 From: millerbj at umich.edu (Blair J. Miller) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:23 2005 Subject: Tandy 1800HD Message-ID: <001501c14b7f$5f74bb60$2ed0d58d@fluffy> So I dropped by the computer shop today and they had a Tandy 1800HD laptop for $10. I grabbed it. It's in excellent condition. Unfortunately, someone stole the power-supply... Any idea where I can get one? Also, were might I find a scanned manual for this thing? Blair From optimus at canit.se Tue Oct 2 05:06:07 2001 From: optimus at canit.se (Iggy Drougge) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:23 2005 Subject: IBM ROM BASIC or lack thereof In-Reply-To: <20011002045234.JISG13606.imf03bis.bellsouth.net@thegoodw> Message-ID: <570.675T350T6663711optimus@canit.se> Glen Goodwin skrev: >> Isn't QBASIC delivered even to this day with Windows systems? That's a >much >> nicer basic, and it features online help, which is great for kids. >No BASIC of any kind from Win95 on up. Since my only Windows machine is de-electrified right now, I can't test that, but I am certain that I've run QBASIC on it. Would anyone sitting at one try that from a prompt? -- En ligne avec Thor 2.6a. "Real life is full of idiots, and tons of ads. I don't see how IRC is any different, other than a lot more people want to have sex with you." -- m3000 From rmeenaks at olf.com Tue Oct 2 16:09:40 2001 From: rmeenaks at olf.com (Ram Meenakshisundaram) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:23 2005 Subject: Semi OT: Radio Shack Armatron & May '85 issue of Radio-Electronics References: Message-ID: <3BBA2D14.57E2B52E@olf.com> Chris wrote: > >I am planning on converting the Radio Shack Armatron to run off the > >parallel port > >of a PeeCee but need the plans to do it. I found the following site > >that contains the conversion > >needed for an Atari at: > > > >http://www.bitsofthepast.com/atari/arm.html > > > >The May '85 Radio-Electronics has the necessary instructions, sooo I was > > > >wondering if someone would be kind enought to either scan or mail me the > > > >article. > > I hate to sound like an AOL'er, but ME TOO! (that is, email me the > directions too)... I have never thought of doing this, but it certainly > would make my old armatron WAY more fun. (Humm... now I am going to have > to pull it out and see if I can hook it up to my Lego Mindstorm... toss a > remote control car body to the bottom, and I can terrorize my cat for > hours!) > > Funny you mention the mindstorms! I was planning on doing the same thing! Once I get it up and running, I wanted to hook it up to lego mindstorms as well. But first, we need the instructions. I eventually want to hook it up to my transputers to do some serious parallel robotics since I now have a parallel port tram.... Ram -- ,,,, /'^'\ ( o o ) -oOOO--(_)--OOOo------------------------------------- | Ram Meenakshisundaram | | Senior Software Engineer | | OpenLink Financial Inc | | .oooO Phone: (516) 227-6600 x267 | | ( ) Oooo. Email: rmeenaks@olf.com | ---\ (----( )-------------------------------------- \_) ) / (_/ From mrbill at mrbill.net Tue Oct 2 16:35:44 2001 From: mrbill at mrbill.net (Bill Bradford) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:23 2005 Subject: TECO manuals Message-ID: <20011002163544.T15092@mrbill.net> Anybody know of any online TECO manuals? I've got a set of DECsystem-10 TECO manuals that I'll scan if they dont already exist online.... Bill -- Bill Bradford mrbill@mrbill.net Austin, TX From sipke at wxs.nl Tue Oct 2 16:23:44 2001 From: sipke at wxs.nl (Sipke de Wal) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:23 2005 Subject: IBM ROM BASIC or lack thereof References: <570.675T350T6663711optimus@canit.se> Message-ID: <000701c14b88$8c8ef8a0$030101ac@boll.casema.net> QBASIC was at least delivered on the WIN98 first ed. CD in a separate directory D:\TOOLS\OLDMSDOS The other alternative obviously would be Visual Basic 6+ Sipke de Wal ----------------------------------------------------- http://xgistor.ath.cx ----------------------------------------------------- ----- Original Message ----- From: Iggy Drougge To: Glen Goodwin Sent: Tuesday, October 02, 2001 12:00 AM Subject: Re: IBM ROM BASIC or lack thereof > Glen Goodwin skrev: > > >> Isn't QBASIC delivered even to this day with Windows systems? That's a > >much > >> nicer basic, and it features online help, which is great for kids. > > >No BASIC of any kind from Win95 on up. > > Since my only Windows machine is de-electrified right now, I can't test that, > but I am certain that I've run QBASIC on it. Would anyone sitting at one try > that from a prompt? > > -- > En ligne avec Thor 2.6a. > > "Real life is full of idiots, and tons of ads. I don't see how IRC is any > different, other than a lot more people want to have sex with you." > -- m3000 > From rhblakeman at kih.net Tue Oct 2 17:04:36 2001 From: rhblakeman at kih.net (Russ Blakeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:23 2005 Subject: IBM ROM BASIC or lack thereof In-Reply-To: <570.675T350T6663711optimus@canit.se> Message-ID: Not on my 95, 98 second edition or ME machines, even searched using FIND...nope but it is on my Windows 3.11 machine, as it came with DOS 6.22... -> -----Original Message----- -> From: owner-classiccmp@classiccmp.org -> [mailto:owner-classiccmp@classiccmp.org]On Behalf Of Iggy Drougge -> Sent: Tuesday, October 02, 2001 12:00 AM -> To: Glen Goodwin -> Subject: Re: IBM ROM BASIC or lack thereof -> -> -> Glen Goodwin skrev: -> -> >> Isn't QBASIC delivered even to this day with Windows systems? That's a -> >much -> >> nicer basic, and it features online help, which is great for kids. -> -> >No BASIC of any kind from Win95 on up. -> -> Since my only Windows machine is de-electrified right now, I -> can't test that, -> but I am certain that I've run QBASIC on it. Would anyone -> sitting at one try -> that from a prompt? -> -> -- -> En ligne avec Thor 2.6a. -> -> "Real life is full of idiots, and tons of ads. I don't see how IRC is any -> different, other than a lot more people want to have sex with you." -> -- m3000 -> -> From healyzh at aracnet.com Tue Oct 2 17:07:49 2001 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:23 2005 Subject: TECO manuals In-Reply-To: <20011002163544.T15092@mrbill.net> from "Bill Bradford" at Oct 02, 2001 04:35:44 PM Message-ID: <200110022207.f92M7nn18480@shell1.aracnet.com> > Anybody know of any online TECO manuals? I've got a set of > DECsystem-10 TECO manuals that I'll scan if they dont already > exist online.... I'm not aware of any TECO manuals online, and I'm almost positive that there aren't any DECsystem-10 TECO manuals online. These would be a great addition. Zane From mythtech at Mac.com Tue Oct 2 17:11:37 2001 From: mythtech at Mac.com (Chris) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:23 2005 Subject: IBM ROM BASIC or lack thereof Message-ID: >>No BASIC of any kind from Win95 on up. > >Since my only Windows machine is de-electrified right now, I can't test that, >but I am certain that I've run QBASIC on it. Would anyone sitting at one try >that from a prompt? I just did a search in win95 for basic (this is a fresh install of win95, so no other software has been added)... and there are NO matches. Going to a command line and typing Qbasic give a "bad command or file name" as I would expect since find found nothing. WinME has the same results. I can't test 98 or NT 4 or 5 from home, so I can't say what is on them, but I would guess the same thing (nothing). -chris From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Oct 2 16:53:21 2001 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:23 2005 Subject: IBM ROM BASIC or lack thereof In-Reply-To: <20011002041753.IHKX27853.imf01bis.bellsouth.net@thegoodw> from "Glen Goodwin" at Oct 2, 1 00:16:07 am Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1008 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20011002/7df5c9a2/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Oct 2 16:57:00 2001 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:23 2005 Subject: IBM ROM BASIC or lack thereof In-Reply-To: <20011002050231.IFII11373.imf11bis.bellsouth.net@thegoodw> from "Glen Goodwin" at Oct 2, 1 01:00:45 am Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 740 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20011002/139ba288/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Oct 2 17:15:07 2001 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:23 2005 Subject: Philips machines (and AMT DAPs) In-Reply-To: <008c01c14b65$0140f960$af7debc2@y1q9w1> from "Edward P. Woldendorp" at Oct 2, 1 06:55:46 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 522 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20011002/813aac94/attachment.ksh From vance at ikickass.org Tue Oct 2 17:44:09 2001 From: vance at ikickass.org (Absurdly Obtuse) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:23 2005 Subject: IBM ROM BASIC or lack thereof In-Reply-To: Message-ID: It's on the CD on 95, 98, and (I believe) 98SE, but it doesn't install to HDD. You have to copy it manually. Peace... Sridhar On Tue, 2 Oct 2001, Russ Blakeman wrote: > Not on my 95, 98 second edition or ME machines, even searched using > FIND...nope but it is on my Windows 3.11 machine, as it came with DOS > 6.22... > > -> -----Original Message----- > -> From: owner-classiccmp@classiccmp.org > -> [mailto:owner-classiccmp@classiccmp.org]On Behalf Of Iggy Drougge > -> Sent: Tuesday, October 02, 2001 12:00 AM > -> To: Glen Goodwin > -> Subject: Re: IBM ROM BASIC or lack thereof > -> > -> > -> Glen Goodwin skrev: > -> > -> >> Isn't QBASIC delivered even to this day with Windows systems? That's a > -> >much > -> >> nicer basic, and it features online help, which is great for kids. > -> > -> >No BASIC of any kind from Win95 on up. > -> > -> Since my only Windows machine is de-electrified right now, I > -> can't test that, > -> but I am certain that I've run QBASIC on it. Would anyone > -> sitting at one try > -> that from a prompt? > -> > -> -- > -> En ligne avec Thor 2.6a. > -> > -> "Real life is full of idiots, and tons of ads. I don't see how IRC is any > -> different, other than a lot more people want to have sex with you." > -> -- m3000 > -> > -> > From IVIE at cc.usu.edu Tue Oct 2 17:45:11 2001 From: IVIE at cc.usu.edu (Roger Ivie) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:23 2005 Subject: TECO manuals Message-ID: <01K916DA2HYA96W3FQ@cc.usu.edu> >> Anybody know of any online TECO manuals? I've got a set of >> DECsystem-10 TECO manuals that I'll scan if they dont already >> exist online.... > >I'm not aware of any TECO manuals online, and I'm almost positive that there >aren't any DECsystem-10 TECO manuals online. These would be a great >addition. There's a bunch of TECO stuff over at http://www.ibiblio.org/pub/academic/computer-science/history/pdp-11/teco/ but I don't think there's a TECO-10 manual. There is, however, a TECO-6 manual at http://www.enteract.com/~enf/lore/teco/teco-64.html What I'm looking for is a piece of software called "Video TECO". It's a fairly nice (from my limited perspective) full-screen TECO in C that I used for some time under Ultrix. I still have a printout of the manual somewhere, but I seem to have lost my copy of the sources and haven't been able to find a site online containing it. Roger Ivie ivie@cc.usu.edu From g at kurico.com Tue Oct 2 17:52:48 2001 From: g at kurico.com (George Currie) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:23 2005 Subject: IBM ROM BASIC or lack thereof In-Reply-To: <570.675T350T6663711optimus@canit.se> Message-ID: <3BB130FA000E73DA@mail.san.yahoo.com> (added by postmaster@mail.san.yahoo.com) Yay on NT4 Server, nay on NT2K Server. George On 2 Oct 2001 11:6:7 +0100, Iggy Drougge wrote: >Glen Goodwin skrev: > >>> Isn't QBASIC delivered even to this day with Windows systems? That's a >>much >>> nicer basic, and it features online help, which is great for kids. > >>No BASIC of any kind from Win95 on up. > >Since my only Windows machine is de-electrified right now, I can't test that, >but I am certain that I've run QBASIC on it. Would anyone sitting at one try >that from a prompt? > >-- >En ligne avec Thor 2.6a. > >"Real life is full of idiots, and tons of ads. I don't see how IRC is any >different, other than a lot more people want to have sex with you." > -- m3000 > From jhellige at earthlink.net Tue Oct 2 17:55:58 2001 From: jhellige at earthlink.net (Jeff Hellige) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:23 2005 Subject: IBM ROM BASIC or lack thereof In-Reply-To: <570.675T350T6663711optimus@canit.se> References: <570.675T350T6663711optimus@canit.se> Message-ID: >Since my only Windows machine is de-electrified right now, I can't test that, >but I am certain that I've run QBASIC on it. Would anyone sitting at one try >that from a prompt? Just checked the Win98 install I have on Virtual PC and there's not a BASIC interpreter included that I can find. There's not one included with PC-DOS 7.0/PC-DOS 2000 either, though QBAISC is included with NT 4.0. I've found that the PowerBASIC compiler works great under all versions of DOS and Windows though. I've been using it for over 10 years now after switching to it from TurboBasic. Jeff -- Home of the TRS-80 Model 2000 FAQ File http://www.cchaven.com http://www.geocities.com/siliconvalley/lakes/6757 From zaft at azstarnet.com Tue Oct 2 18:11:04 2001 From: zaft at azstarnet.com (Gordon Zaft) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:23 2005 Subject: IBM ROM BASIC or lack thereof In-Reply-To: References: <570.675T350T6663711optimus@canit.se> Message-ID: <4.3.2.7.2.20011002160944.0202e030@mail.azstarnet.com> At 05:04 PM 10/2/2001 -0500, you wrote: >Not on my 95, 98 second edition or ME machines, even searched using >FIND...nope but it is on my Windows 3.11 machine, as it came with DOS >6.22... QBASIC is on my NT 4.0 box. It lives in \winnt\system32. It seems to be gone from Win2K though. From sipke at wxs.nl Tue Oct 2 18:14:25 2001 From: sipke at wxs.nl (Sipke de Wal) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:24 2005 Subject: IBM ROM BASIC or lack thereof References: Message-ID: <003d01c14b97$fa7374e0$030101ac@boll.casema.net> My CD-ROM is a special release for educational institutions and may have the PLUS CD incorporated ! Sipke de Wal --------------------------------------------- http://xgistor.ath.cx --------------------------------------------- ----- Original Message ----- From: Russ Blakeman To: Sent: Wednesday, October 03, 2001 12:04 AM Subject: RE: IBM ROM BASIC or lack thereof > Not on my 95, 98 second edition or ME machines, even searched using > FIND...nope but it is on my Windows 3.11 machine, as it came with DOS > 6.22... > > -> -----Original Message----- > -> From: owner-classiccmp@classiccmp.org > -> [mailto:owner-classiccmp@classiccmp.org]On Behalf Of Iggy Drougge > -> Sent: Tuesday, October 02, 2001 12:00 AM > -> To: Glen Goodwin > -> Subject: Re: IBM ROM BASIC or lack thereof > -> > -> > -> Glen Goodwin skrev: > -> > -> >> Isn't QBASIC delivered even to this day with Windows systems? That's a > -> >much > -> >> nicer basic, and it features online help, which is great for kids. > -> > -> >No BASIC of any kind from Win95 on up. > -> > -> Since my only Windows machine is de-electrified right now, I > -> can't test that, > -> but I am certain that I've run QBASIC on it. Would anyone > -> sitting at one try > -> that from a prompt? > -> > -> -- > -> En ligne avec Thor 2.6a. > -> > -> "Real life is full of idiots, and tons of ads. I don't see how IRC is any > -> different, other than a lot more people want to have sex with you." > -> -- m3000 > -> > -> > From spc at conman.org Tue Oct 2 18:19:31 2001 From: spc at conman.org (Sean 'Captain Napalm' Conner) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:24 2005 Subject: IBM ROM BASIC or lack thereof In-Reply-To: <20011002050231.IFII11373.imf11bis.bellsouth.net@thegoodw> from "Glen Goodwin" at Oct 02, 2001 01:00:45 AM Message-ID: <200110022319.TAA08988@conman.org> It was thus said that the Great Glen Goodwin once stated: > > Tony Duell wrote: > > > Since they never did provide BASIC they had to make INT 18 do something > > (remember an application program could, in theory, call that interrupt). > > Since that interrupt should have entered ROM BASIC, the most sensible > > thing to do was to print that there was no ROM BASIC and then halt the > > CPU. > > Since "they never did provide BASIC" then there was *always* "no ROM > BASIC." That's like stopping the machine with a message stating "no > printer." Why not display something understandable to a common user, such > as "no bootable device?" INT 18h on the Data General/1 (an 8088 based laptop computer, from 1984) would dump you into a built in application that included a terminal program (ADM-3A if I recall correctly, and which I used extensively when I traveled because the serial ports were based off the USART 82C51, and thus not compatible with the general 8250s in use on other PCs, so I couldn't use programs like Procomm or Qmodem), a word processor and maybe some other cheesey programs like that. -spc (And it's a common (programming) mistake to assume that INT 19H will reboot the machine ... ) From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Oct 2 17:56:43 2001 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:24 2005 Subject: Semi OT: Radio Shack Armatron & May '85 issue of Radio-Electronics In-Reply-To: from "Chris" at Oct 2, 1 04:06:20 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1832 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20011002/a3466968/attachment.ksh From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Tue Oct 2 19:14:55 2001 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (ajp166) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:24 2005 Subject: IBM ROM BASIC or lack thereof Message-ID: <005f01c14ba2$163f8010$dded9a8d@ajp166> I also have W95osr2 cdroms with Qbasic on them as old software. My dos 5.0 kit has Qbasic and the 6.22full kit has it as well. the 6.22 upgrade does nto as it already part of the system (upgrade from dos5.0). Allison -----Original Message----- From: Sipke de Wal To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org Date: Tuesday, October 02, 2001 7:55 PM Subject: Re: IBM ROM BASIC or lack thereof >My CD-ROM is a special release for educational institutions and >may have the PLUS CD incorporated ! > >Sipke de Wal >--------------------------------------------- >http://xgistor.ath.cx >--------------------------------------------- > >----- Original Message ----- >From: Russ Blakeman >To: >Sent: Wednesday, October 03, 2001 12:04 AM >Subject: RE: IBM ROM BASIC or lack thereof > > >> Not on my 95, 98 second edition or ME machines, even searched using >> FIND...nope but it is on my Windows 3.11 machine, as it came with DOS >> 6.22... >> >> -> -----Original Message----- >> -> From: owner-classiccmp@classiccmp.org >> -> [mailto:owner-classiccmp@classiccmp.org]On Behalf Of Iggy Drougge >> -> Sent: Tuesday, October 02, 2001 12:00 AM >> -> To: Glen Goodwin >> -> Subject: Re: IBM ROM BASIC or lack thereof >> -> >> -> >> -> Glen Goodwin skrev: >> -> >> -> >> Isn't QBASIC delivered even to this day with Windows systems? That's a >> -> >much >> -> >> nicer basic, and it features online help, which is great for kids. >> -> >> -> >No BASIC of any kind from Win95 on up. >> -> >> -> Since my only Windows machine is de-electrified right now, I >> -> can't test that, >> -> but I am certain that I've run QBASIC on it. Would anyone >> -> sitting at one try >> -> that from a prompt? >> -> >> -> -- >> -> En ligne avec Thor 2.6a. >> -> >> -> "Real life is full of idiots, and tons of ads. I don't see how IRC is any >> -> different, other than a lot more people want to have sex with you." >> -> -- m3000 >> -> >> -> >> > > From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Tue Oct 2 19:21:06 2001 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (ajp166) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:24 2005 Subject: IBM ROM BASIC or lack thereof Message-ID: <006001c14ba2$16dcd180$dded9a8d@ajp166> From: Chris >I just did a search in win95 for basic (this is a fresh install of win95, >so no other software has been added)... and there are NO matches. Going >to a command line and typing Qbasic give a "bad command or file name" as >I would expect since find found nothing. the standard install does not copy it to the disk. Check the CDrom as it's there in a seperate directory. >WinME has the same results. I can't test 98 or NT 4 or 5 from home, so I >can't say what is on them, but I would guess the same thing (nothing). It's also on my NT4/server, Nt4/workstation, 98 and 98se none of which install it automagically. it can be installed on W2000 from what I've been told but again it's a manual install. Allison From foo at siconic.com Tue Oct 2 19:48:52 2001 From: foo at siconic.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:24 2005 Subject: Altair 8800a on EBAY In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Tue, 2 Oct 2001, Mike Ford wrote: > > http://cgi.ebay.com/aw-cgi/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=1280822959 I > >have been considering buying one of these machines as an investment. > >While I am a computer programmer > > My guess is that prices will stay flat for a few more years, then rapidly > drop to about 5% of current levels. I don't think we'll see that. I think they'll always have some significant monetary value, and I do see culturally significant machines going up in value over time (like Apple 1's). I just looked at the Altair auction. In it they mention the original owner used the Altair up until they got a TRS-80. In one of the pictures we see two TRS-80 disk drives supposedly hooked up to the Altair. Duh. I'm guessing they were NOT used with the Altair. Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org From jhellige at earthlink.net Tue Oct 2 19:54:25 2001 From: jhellige at earthlink.net (Jeff Hellige) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:24 2005 Subject: IBM ROM BASIC or lack thereof In-Reply-To: <006001c14ba2$16dcd180$dded9a8d@ajp166> References: <006001c14ba2$16dcd180$dded9a8d@ajp166> Message-ID: >It's also on my NT4/server, Nt4/workstation, 98 and 98se none of which >install it automagically. it can be installed on W2000 from what I've >been >told but again it's a manual install. NT 4 Workstation has installed it automatically anytime I've done clean installs. Jeff -- Home of the TRS-80 Model 2000 FAQ File http://www.cchaven.com http://www.geocities.com/siliconvalley/lakes/6757 From rigdonj at intellistar.net Tue Oct 2 20:13:26 2001 From: rigdonj at intellistar.net (Joe) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:24 2005 Subject: Boot Disk Needed In-Reply-To: <20011002043131.FQPV2937.imf17bis.bellsouth.net@thegoodw> Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20011002211326.007aa100@mailhost.intellistar.net> At 12:29 AM 10/2/01 -0400, you wrote: >> Drop to DOS on any machine with a 5.25" drive you have access to. Type: >> >> format /u /s a: > >Okay Sellam, I'll bite -- what's the /u parameter? Unconditional format. It doesn't save the unformat information. Joe > >Glen >0/0 > > From gunther at aurora.regenstrief.org Tue Oct 2 20:08:48 2001 From: gunther at aurora.regenstrief.org (Gunther Schadow) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:24 2005 Subject: FDDI Cards References: Message-ID: <3BBA6520.7050108@aurora.regenstrief.org> Absurdly Obtuse wrote: > Anyone know where I might be able to find DEC DEFPA's, DEC DEFTA's, IBM > FDDI/MC's and thing of the like? on ebay :-) yes, I've seen them scroll through recently. Several of them. -Gunther -- Gunther Schadow, M.D., Ph.D. gschadow@regenstrief.org Medical Information Scientist Regenstrief Institute for Health Care Adjunct Assistant Professor Indiana University School of Medicine tel:1(317)630-7960 http://aurora.regenstrief.org From jhellige at earthlink.net Tue Oct 2 20:32:22 2001 From: jhellige at earthlink.net (Jeff Hellige) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:24 2005 Subject: Altair 8800a on EBAY In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: >I just looked at the Altair auction. In it they mention the original >owner used the Altair up until they got a TRS-80. In one of the pictures >we see two TRS-80 disk drives supposedly hooked up to the Altair. > >Duh. > >I'm guessing they were NOT used with the Altair. Actually, the disk drives sold by Tandy for the Model I had the air vents above the PSU going side to side on the case, not front to back as the units in his pictures show. I also have a second aftermarket noname drive for the Model I that is nearly identical to the TRS-80 badged drive but it has two sets of air vents, situated next to each other, with the slots still running side to side. Given that he states a NorthStar disk controller is installed, it's not inconceivable that they are aftermarket cases with user-supplied drives for use with that Altair. Jeff -- Home of the TRS-80 Model 2000 FAQ File http://www.cchaven.com http://www.geocities.com/siliconvalley/lakes/6757 From louiss at gate.net Tue Oct 2 20:35:33 2001 From: louiss at gate.net (Louis Schulman) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:24 2005 Subject: Altair 8800a on EBAY In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <200110030135.VAA08043@mclean.mail.mindspring.net> On Tue, 2 Oct 2001 17:48:52 -0700 (PDT), Sellam Ismail wrote: #I just looked at the Altair auction. In it they mention the original #owner used the Altair up until they got a TRS-80. In one of the pictures #we see two TRS-80 disk drives supposedly hooked up to the Altair. # #Duh. # #I'm guessing they were NOT used with the Altair. Yeah, I noticed that, too. Seems very odd. But, you will have to admit the Altair appears to be in beautiful condition. Louis From kc4fwz at bellsouth.net Tue Oct 2 20:56:54 2001 From: kc4fwz at bellsouth.net (Robert Matthews) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:24 2005 Subject: Model 12 <-> Okidata 600e Message-ID: <003201c14bae$ad41fc20$18d64ed8@matthews> I'm trying to help a friend of a friend interface an Okidata 600e printer with a Radio Shack Model 12 computer. Any idea if this is possible? He claims to have created an interface cable, but it doesn't work. Robert Matthews -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20011002/f05dc124/attachment.html From vance at ikickass.org Tue Oct 2 21:04:58 2001 From: vance at ikickass.org (Absurdly Obtuse) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:24 2005 Subject: FDDI Cards In-Reply-To: <3BBA6520.7050108@aurora.regenstrief.org> Message-ID: The problem with eBay though, is that many of the cards going through there are SAS and unlabeled. That. and I've never seen an IBM FDDI/MC on there. Peace... Sridhar On Tue, 2 Oct 2001, Gunther Schadow wrote: > on ebay :-) > > yes, I've seen them scroll through recently. Several of them. > > -Gunther From cmurillo at emtelsa.multi.net.co Tue Oct 2 20:23:59 2001 From: cmurillo at emtelsa.multi.net.co (Carlos Murillo) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:24 2005 Subject: IBM ROM BASIC or lack thereof In-Reply-To: <3BB130FA000E73DA@mail.san.yahoo.com> (added by postmaster@mail.san.yahoo.com) References: <570.675T350T6663711optimus@canit.se> Message-ID: <3.0.2.32.20011002212359.01c6f50c@obregon.multi.net.co> I believe that qbasic was included in some older nt and win9x installations only as support for "edit"; i.e., you typed "edit autoexec.bat" and the qbasic editor would be the actual invoked program. carlos. At 05:52 PM 10/2/01 -0500, you wrote: >Yay on NT4 Server, nay on NT2K Server. > >George > >On 2 Oct 2001 11:6:7 +0100, Iggy Drougge wrote: > >>Glen Goodwin skrev: >> >>>> Isn't QBASIC delivered even to this day with Windows systems? That's a >>>much >>>> nicer basic, and it features online help, which is great for kids. >> >>>No BASIC of any kind from Win95 on up. >> >>Since my only Windows machine is de-electrified right now, I can't test that, >>but I am certain that I've run QBASIC on it. Would anyone sitting at one try >>that from a prompt? >> >>-- >>En ligne avec Thor 2.6a. >> >>"Real life is full of idiots, and tons of ads. I don't see how IRC is any >>different, other than a lot more people want to have sex with you." >> -- m3000 >> > > > > -------------------------------------------------------------- Carlos E. Murillo-Sanchez carlos_murillo@nospammers.ieee.org From dogas at bellsouth.net Tue Oct 2 21:29:23 2001 From: dogas at bellsouth.net (Mike) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:24 2005 Subject: Semi OT: Radio Shack Armatron & May '85 issue of Radio-Electronics References: Message-ID: <000901c14bb3$377554b0$0362d6d1@DOMAIN> From: Chris > >The May '85 Radio-Electronics has the necessary instructions, sooo I was > > > >wondering if someone would be kind enought to either scan or mail me the > > > >article. > > I hate to sound like an AOL'er, but ME TOO! (that is, email me the I have found the 5/85 issue and scanned in the pages. They're each about 1.2 meg so fair warning. Also, I don't really have space to keep these online so someone please copy them and host them somewhere else. http://personal.lig.bellsouth.net/lig/d/o/dogas/arm1.tif http://personal.lig.bellsouth.net/lig/d/o/dogas/arm2.tif http://personal.lig.bellsouth.net/lig/d/o/dogas/arm3.tif http://personal.lig.bellsouth.net/lig/d/o/dogas/arm4.tif http://personal.lig.bellsouth.net/lig/d/o/dogas/arm5.tif http://personal.lig.bellsouth.net/lig/d/o/dogas/arm6.tif Enjoy ;) - Mike: dogas@bellsouth.net From gwynp at artware.qc.ca Tue Oct 2 21:33:16 2001 From: gwynp at artware.qc.ca (gwynp@artware.qc.ca) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:24 2005 Subject: IBM ROM BASIC or lack thereof In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On 30-Sep-2001 Tony Duell wrote: > There was one time I was glad I had a true IBM PC/XT and not a clone. I > needed ROM BASIC. The reason was, my floppy controller had suffered a > hardward failure. The machine managed to give up trying to boot from > floppies, and fell into ROM BASIC. Where I could use OUT commands to > send values to the floppy controller ports, and I could look at signals > on the floppy controller card with a logic probe. Took me about 5 minutes > to find the dead 74LS273 latch that was holding the 8272 in the reset > state. > > If I'd not had BASIC in ROM, I'd have had a long day ahead of me trying > to debug that machine... You, sir, are, and I mean this in the best possible way, INSANE. I am in awe. -Philip From mrbill at mrbill.net Tue Oct 2 21:31:04 2001 From: mrbill at mrbill.net (Bill Bradford) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:24 2005 Subject: TECO manuals In-Reply-To: <200110022207.f92M7nn18480@shell1.aracnet.com> References: <20011002163544.T15092@mrbill.net> <200110022207.f92M7nn18480@shell1.aracnet.com> Message-ID: <20011002213104.K23699@mrbill.net> On Tue, Oct 02, 2001 at 03:07:49PM -0700, Zane H. Healy wrote: > I'm not aware of any TECO manuals online, and I'm almost positive that there > aren't any DECsystem-10 TECO manuals online. These would be a great > addition. Great! I'll try to get them scanned this weekend. Bill -- Bill Bradford mrbill@mrbill.net Austin, TX From geoffr at zipcon.net Tue Oct 2 22:26:27 2001 From: geoffr at zipcon.net (Geoff Reed) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:24 2005 Subject: Model 12 <-> Okidata 600e In-Reply-To: <003201c14bae$ad41fc20$18d64ed8@matthews> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20011002202554.031b87a0@mail.zipcon.net> The model 12 should have a parallel port IIRC... it may be a card-edge style (it's been a while since i've looked at one) At 08:56 PM 10/2/01 -0500, you wrote: >I'm trying to help a friend of a friend interface an Okidata 600e printer >with a Radio Shack Model 12 computer. Any idea if this is possible? He >claims to have created an interface cable, but it doesn't work. > >Robert Matthews From geoffr at zipcon.net Tue Oct 2 22:30:30 2001 From: geoffr at zipcon.net (Geoff Reed) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:24 2005 Subject: Altair 8800a on EBAY In-Reply-To: <200110030135.VAA08043@mclean.mail.mindspring.net> References: Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20011002202844.00a3bec0@mail.zipcon.net> Those sort of 5 1/4 drive cases were pretty common (at least up in this neck of the woods) with the northstar floppy controller in it, i'd bet that it is using the 5 1/4 drives, and has been for quite some time. (i didn't see a tandy label on them and I don't remember tandy ever shipping drives with the doorlock switch on the front... At 09:35 PM 10/2/01 -0400, you wrote: >On Tue, 2 Oct 2001 17:48:52 -0700 (PDT), Sellam Ismail wrote: > >#I just looked at the Altair auction. In it they mention the original >#owner used the Altair up until they got a TRS-80. In one of the pictures >#we see two TRS-80 disk drives supposedly hooked up to the Altair. ># >#Duh. ># >#I'm guessing they were NOT used with the Altair. > >Yeah, I noticed that, too. Seems very odd. But, you will have to admit >the Altair appears to be in beautiful >condition. > >Louis From SUPRDAVE at aol.com Tue Oct 2 22:39:19 2001 From: SUPRDAVE at aol.com (SUPRDAVE@aol.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:24 2005 Subject: FDDI Cards Message-ID: <8a.d617016.28ebe267@aol.com> The only ones i've seen are SK-net brand, of which I have two in my IBM server 95s. In a message dated 10/2/2001 10:17:01 PM Eastern Daylight Time, vance@ikickass.org writes: << The problem with eBay though, is that many of the cards going through there are SAS and unlabeled. That. and I've never seen an IBM FDDI/MC on there. Peace... Sridhar On Tue, 2 Oct 2001, Gunther Schadow wrote: > on ebay :-) > > yes, I've seen them scroll through recently. Several of them. > > -Gunther >> From cisin at xenosoft.com Tue Oct 2 22:41:12 2001 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin (XenoSoft)) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:24 2005 Subject: Model 12 <-> Okidata 600e In-Reply-To: <003201c14bae$ad41fc20$18d64ed8@matthews> Message-ID: On Tue, 2 Oct 2001, Robert Matthews wrote: > I'm trying to help a friend of a friend interface an Okidata 600e printer > with a Radio Shack Model 12 computer. Any idea if this is possible? He > claims to have created an interface cable, but it doesn't work. Radio Shack computers (except Coco) work with "Centronics" style parallel printers. BUT, ... Radio Shack does NOT send LF; it expects the printer to do an auto LF after CR. The 12 can also work with a serial printer, IF you are willing to struggle a little with hardware and software. -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin@xenosoft.com From acme_ent at bellsouth.net Tue Oct 2 22:40:16 2001 From: acme_ent at bellsouth.net (Glen Goodwin) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:24 2005 Subject: Central Florida Junk Fest report. Message-ID: <20011003034202.IDFQ13640.imf17bis.bellsouth.net@thegoodw> Hey Mike, I'm getting a 404 on all of these :>( > The pics didn't come out very well with alot of cc gear hiding in the shade, > but here they are: > > http://personal.lig.bellsouth.net/lig/d/o/dogas/Jf1.jpg > http://personal.lig.bellsouth.net/lig/d/o/dogas/Jf2.jpg > http://personal.lig.bellsouth.net/lig/d/o/dogas/Jf3.jpg > > > > ;) > > - Mike: dogas@bellsouth.net From acme_ent at bellsouth.net Tue Oct 2 23:03:42 2001 From: acme_ent at bellsouth.net (Glen Goodwin) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:24 2005 Subject: IBM ROM BASIC or lack thereof Message-ID: <20011003040528.LNEO20284.imf11bis.bellsouth.net@thegoodw> > > "No ROM BASIC" does not tell the user what happened. "No bootable device > > found" would be more helpful. > > Yes it does tell the user what happened. The system attempted to enter > ROM BASIC, there is no ROM BASIC and thus the system was halted. As Hans > said, INT 18h can be called from anywere, not just the bootstrap. Would > 'No bootable device found' make sense if another program tried to call > ROM BASIC, not as part of booting the system? Tony, have you dealt with any typical personal computer users lately? I do every day, and I can tell you that none of the ones I deal with -- and I mean *none* -- know what a ROM is, or what BASIC is. "No ROM BASIC" tells you, Tony Duell, what happened, but for the vast majority of users, it doesn't mean a thing. Glen 0/0 From ysgdhio at yahoo.com Tue Oct 2 23:20:49 2001 From: ysgdhio at yahoo.com (ysgdhio) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:24 2005 Subject: TECO manuals In-Reply-To: <01K916DA2HYA96W3FQ@cc.usu.edu>; from Roger Ivie on Tue, Oct 02, 2001 at 04:45:11PM -0600 References: <01K916DA2HYA96W3FQ@cc.usu.edu> Message-ID: <20011003002049.B1910@spies.com> There seems to be a gob of TECO stuff, here: ftp://ftp.mindlink.net/pub/teco/ especially in the usc-archive directory. From acme_ent at bellsouth.net Tue Oct 2 23:23:00 2001 From: acme_ent at bellsouth.net (Glen Goodwin) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:24 2005 Subject: IBM ROM BASIC or lack thereof Message-ID: <20011003042445.IWBD18961.imf15bis.bellsouth.net@thegoodw> > > Since "they never did provide BASIC" then there was *always* "no ROM > > BASIC." That's like stopping the machine with a message stating "no > > printer." Why not display something understandable to a common user, such > > as "no bootable device?" > > Because INT 18h doesn't check for bootable devices. It is the entry to > ROM BASIC. It may well be that the most common time that it is called is > from the bootstrap after both floppy and hard disk boots have failed, but > that doesn't mean it's the only time it can be called. Tony, are you simply being obstinate here, or didn't you see the above reference to "common user?" Do you think "common users" -- not to be disrespectful to plain old computer users -- read BIOS listings??? What I mean to say is: Suzy Six-pack, who ekes out a living typing up MS Word documents, doesn't know shit about the internals of the machine she uses. > Actually, one thing that really annoys me are error messages that don't > describe the real problem, but only the most likely cause. I need to know > waht's really going on so that I can fix it. Odd, that.... Yes, and even more odd is that you fail to see that "no bootable device" at power-up actually does describe the problem, whereas "no ROM BASIC" does not, since the system in question would never call INT 18h if a bootable device were available (unless some insane programmer called it, and I seriously doubt that you can show me a commercially available program which does this). Glen 0/0 From mikeford at socal.rr.com Tue Oct 2 20:14:38 2001 From: mikeford at socal.rr.com (Mike Ford) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:24 2005 Subject: Semi OT: Radio Shack Armatron & May '85 issue of Radio-Electronics In-Reply-To: Message-ID: >>I am planning on converting the Radio Shack Armatron to run off the >>parallel port The armatron is just ONE motor, everything is done with clutches and gears, ie making one controlable is likely more work than just building an arm from scratch. From vze2mnvr at verizon.net Tue Oct 2 23:53:35 2001 From: vze2mnvr at verizon.net (Jan Koller) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:24 2005 Subject: IBM ROM BASIC or lack thereof References: <20011002050231.IFII11373.imf11bis.bellsouth.net@thegoodw> Message-ID: <3BBA99CF.38F3F23C@verizon.net> Glen, > Why not display something understandable to a common user, such > as "no bootable device?" The same common user that needs their ports both labeled and color coded? Glen Goodwin wrote: > Tony Duell wrote: > > > Since they never did provide BASIC they had to make INT 18 do something > > (remember an application program could, in theory, call that interrupt). > > Since that interrupt should have entered ROM BASIC, the most sensible > > thing to do was to print that there was no ROM BASIC and then halt the > > CPU. > > Since "they never did provide BASIC" then there was *always* "no ROM > BASIC." That's like stopping the machine with a message stating "no > printer." Why not display something understandable to a common user, such > as "no bootable device?" > > Glen > 0/0 From jarkko.teppo at er-grp.com Wed Oct 3 01:16:35 2001 From: jarkko.teppo at er-grp.com (jarkko.teppo@er-grp.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:24 2005 Subject: HP 9000/847S Message-ID: <20011003091635.A28609@mail.er-grp.com> Hello, I just picked up a 9K 847S, upgraded to H50 with two SCSI-buses, one mux panel, a few disks and 384MB of memory (hmmmmm...). I'm not sure on the ten year rule as I'm relatively clueless regarding this machine. This is my second PA-RISC machine and it seems refreshingly better than the 840. A few questions: a) Introduction date ? b) Where can I get HP-UX 10.x cheaply :)? (ie. for free) -- jht From mikeford at socal.rr.com Tue Oct 2 23:59:24 2001 From: mikeford at socal.rr.com (Mike Ford) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:24 2005 Subject: Altair 8800a on EBAY In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: >> > http://cgi.ebay.com/aw-cgi/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=1280822959 I >> >have been considering buying one of these machines as an investment. >> >While I am a computer programmer >> >> My guess is that prices will stay flat for a few more years, then rapidly >> drop to about 5% of current levels. > >I don't think we'll see that. I think they'll always have some >significant monetary value, and I do see culturally significant machines >going up in value over time (like Apple 1's). I agree, but my guess is that the signigicant monetary value will be about $100 in most cases, ie incomplete non working units with no docs, no software, and no history. Ask your self this question, at what price would I buy such a unit? $1000, $500, $250, $100, or a lot less than a $100? From jss at subatomix.com Wed Oct 3 01:37:12 2001 From: jss at subatomix.com (Jeffrey S. Sharp) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:24 2005 Subject: IBM ROM BASIC or lack thereof In-Reply-To: <20011003040528.LNEO20284.imf11bis.bellsouth.net@thegoodw> Message-ID: <20011003013218.M8152-100000@lepton.subatomix.com> On Wed, 3 Oct 2001, Glen Goodwin wrote: > "No ROM BASIC" tells you, Tony Duell, what happened, but for the vast > majority of users, it doesn't mean a thing. You forget: when this was state of the art, the vast majority of users were just like Tony. -- Jeffrey S. Sharp jss@subatomix.com From foo at siconic.com Wed Oct 3 02:19:18 2001 From: foo at siconic.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:24 2005 Subject: Altair 8800a on EBAY In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Tue, 2 Oct 2001, Mike Ford wrote: > >I don't think we'll see that. I think they'll always have some > >significant monetary value, and I do see culturally significant machines > >going up in value over time (like Apple 1's). > > I agree, but my guess is that the signigicant monetary value will be about > $100 in most cases, ie incomplete non working units with no docs, no > software, and no history. Ask your self this question, at what price would > I buy such a unit? $1000, $500, $250, $100, or a lot less than a $100? Me personally? A lot less than $100. But then, I've always been more interested in the historical value of things. That being said, I would pay a premium for certain computers, if I had the money and there was no other chance of getting one at a "reasonable" cost. Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org From spc at conman.org Wed Oct 3 03:11:45 2001 From: spc at conman.org (Sean 'Captain Napalm' Conner) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:24 2005 Subject: Semi OT: Radio Shack Armatron & May '85 issue of Radio-Electronics In-Reply-To: <000901c14bb3$377554b0$0362d6d1@DOMAIN> from "Mike" at Oct 02, 2001 10:29:23 PM Message-ID: <200110030811.EAA09655@conman.org> It was thus said that the Great Mike once stated: > > From: Chris > > >The May '85 Radio-Electronics has the necessary instructions, sooo I was > > > > > >wondering if someone would be kind enought to either scan or mail me the > > > > > >article. > > > > I hate to sound like an AOL'er, but ME TOO! (that is, email me the > > I have found the 5/85 issue and scanned in the pages. They're each about > 1.2 meg so fair warning. Also, I don't really have space to keep these > online so someone please copy them and host them somewhere else. I just now copied them and they are available at: http://www.flummux.org/radio/ I can hold them indefinitely (I control the server (486, so it's within the charter of this group 8-) and have plenty of disk space) but I would prefer they go someplace more appropriate than my digpile domain 8-) -spc (And said 486 has been up for 306 days! Woo hoo!) From alan.pearson at cramer.com Wed Oct 3 04:54:06 2001 From: alan.pearson at cramer.com (Alan Pearson) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:24 2005 Subject: IBM ROM BASIC or lack thereof Message-ID: QBASIC's sitting on my machine here at work (NT4), so I guess it's part of the default NT installation. There's no reason for us to use QBASIC here, it's too useful - we're mostly doing PL/SQL or MFC ;-) -al From gsc at zip.com.au Wed Oct 3 05:32:31 2001 From: gsc at zip.com.au (Sean Case) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:24 2005 Subject: TECO manuals In-Reply-To: <20011002163544.T15092@mrbill.net> References: <20011002163544.T15092@mrbill.net> Message-ID: In message <20011002163544.T15092@mrbill.net>, Bill Bradford writes: >Anybody know of any online TECO manuals? I've got a set of >DECsystem-10 TECO manuals that I'll scan if they dont already >exist online.... Have a look in: ftp://sunsite.unc.edu/pub/academic/computer-science/history/pdp-11/teco/doc/ Sean Case From mythtech at Mac.com Wed Oct 3 06:53:14 2001 From: mythtech at Mac.com (Chris) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:24 2005 Subject: Semi OT: Radio Shack Armatron & May '85 issue of Radio-Electronics Message-ID: > I just now copied them and they are available at: > > http://www.flummux.org/radio/ > > I can hold them indefinitely (I control the server (486, so it's within >the charter of this group 8-) and have plenty of disk space) but I would >prefer they go someplace more appropriate than my digpile domain 8-) Can you get pic 2,3 or 6 to open? I can't get them to work (your copy or the originals) on either my Mac, or my winME machine. If you can get them to open, can you either email them to me, or ftp them to ftp.mythtech.net (drop them in the incoming directory... I already have 1,4 and 5 there). I would also be happy to permanently host them (although I don't know how much more appropriate my domain is than yours... but either way). I can also convert them to a single PDF if people want. Thanks -chris From edick at idcomm.com Wed Oct 3 07:31:28 2001 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:24 2005 Subject: Altair 8800a on EBAY References: Message-ID: <003601c14c07$53268540$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> Though the "old computer" market has reflected little that resembles any sort of common sense. I can't imagine why you'd believe that an item, the supply of which is finite, and the demand for which seems to have grown steadily since its introduction, in spite of its qualitative aspects, (meaning I think it is, was, and always will be a bit of rubbish, but that's from where I sit) would decrease in the future. Its value hasn't increased, but its price has. That's the way of things collectable. After a certain point, its technical merits are completely irrelevant. Think of it as a big, clunky, indian-head penny. I'd say your guesstimate of a decrease in the future is based more on wishful thinking than on a realistic view of the collectors' probable behavior. Dick ----- Original Message ----- From: "Mike Ford" To: Sent: Tuesday, October 02, 2001 10:11 AM Subject: Re: Altair 8800a on EBAY > > http://cgi.ebay.com/aw-cgi/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=1280822959 I > >have been considering buying one of these machines as an investment. > >While I am a computer programmer > > My guess is that prices will stay flat for a few more years, then rapidly > drop to about 5% of current levels. > > > From edick at idcomm.com Wed Oct 3 07:36:17 2001 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:24 2005 Subject: Model 12 <-> Okidata 600e References: <5.1.0.14.2.20011002202554.031b87a0@mail.zipcon.net> Message-ID: <005a01c14c07$ffc70680$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> If he's done the obvious, i.e. hooking the Oki 600e to a serial port he's going to have troubles. If he has the parallel port spec, it MIGHT work, provided the RS model drives all the signals as the PC does, which I'd guess it doesn't. I've never even seen a model 12, so I don't know how accessible the driver is in the software. Dick ----- Original Message ----- From: "Geoff Reed" To: Sent: Tuesday, October 02, 2001 9:26 PM Subject: Re: Model 12 <-> Okidata 600e > The model 12 should have a parallel port IIRC... it may be a card-edge > style (it's been a while since i've looked at one) > > > At 08:56 PM 10/2/01 -0500, you wrote: > >I'm trying to help a friend of a friend interface an Okidata 600e printer > >with a Radio Shack Model 12 computer. Any idea if this is possible? He > >claims to have created an interface cable, but it doesn't work. > > > >Robert Matthews > > From rigdonj at intellistar.net Wed Oct 3 07:43:17 2001 From: rigdonj at intellistar.net (Joe) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:24 2005 Subject: Central Florida Junk Fest report. In-Reply-To: <00b401c14b74$f3459e00$5162d6d1@DOMAIN> References: <01ce01c14a18$b1bfc490$caef9a8d@ajp166> <3.0.2.32.20011001071502.01c3e0f4@obregon.multi.net.co> <011c01c14abc$e9436620$88881442@DOMAIN> Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20011003084317.007abe60@mailhost.intellistar.net> At 03:03 PM 10/2/01 -0400, you wrote: >> I took a few digital pics and will post them shortly. > >Well, my cheezy digital cam strikes again Something besides your camera struck, all threee of your links are bad! Joe though is still a few years away >from qualifying as a topic for this list... > >The pics didn't come out very well with alot of cc gear hiding in the shade, >but here they are: > >http://personal.lig.bellsouth.net/lig/d/o/dogas/Jf1.jpg >http://personal.lig.bellsouth.net/lig/d/o/dogas/Jf2.jpg >http://personal.lig.bellsouth.net/lig/d/o/dogas/Jf3.jpg > > >> ;) >> - Mike: dogas@bellsouth.net > > > > From edick at idcomm.com Wed Oct 3 07:42:28 2001 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:24 2005 Subject: Altair 8800a on EBAY References: Message-ID: <006c01c14c08$dcc2fc60$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> Don't forget that there are folks out there who buy things knowing that other will pay lots for them under the right circumstances. The Altair was never a computer that one interested in computing would have bought for what the kit cost. It was an electronics toy, from the design on, and the fact it was ultimately the "first" microcomputer for the masses is purely accidental. It was targeted at those same guys that built the noisemakers and light blinkers. That's why it was advertised where it was. Attempting to evaluate its value to collectors based on its merit as a computer is a serious mistake. It's like a rare coin. It still looks to me like a penny. Dick ----- Original Message ----- From: "Mike Ford" To: Sent: Tuesday, October 02, 2001 10:59 PM Subject: Re: Altair 8800a on EBAY > >> > http://cgi.ebay.com/aw-cgi/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=1280822959 I > >> >have been considering buying one of these machines as an investment. > >> >While I am a computer programmer > >> > >> My guess is that prices will stay flat for a few more years, then rapidly > >> drop to about 5% of current levels. > > > >I don't think we'll see that. I think they'll always have some > >significant monetary value, and I do see culturally significant machines > >going up in value over time (like Apple 1's). > > I agree, but my guess is that the signigicant monetary value will be about > $100 in most cases, ie incomplete non working units with no docs, no > software, and no history. Ask your self this question, at what price would > I buy such a unit? $1000, $500, $250, $100, or a lot less than a $100? > > > From steven_j_robertson at hotmail.com Wed Oct 3 08:06:19 2001 From: steven_j_robertson at hotmail.com (Steve Robertson) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:24 2005 Subject: HP 9000/847S Message-ID: I have HP/847S and found it to be a very effective space heater. Since I wasn't particularily impressed with it's performance, I have opted to run a smaller and more energy friendly HP/832. I use my HPUX box(s) primarily as a database server (running APACHE, PERL, and INFORMIX), application develpment using a Z80 cross assembler, and a backup system for all my other "stuff". I have more trust in 9-track tapes than other backup media. As part of their Y2K support program, HP offered HPUX-10.2 as a free upgrade. The upgrade package included everything you would need to get your box up and running. As far as I know, the upgrade program has been discontinued. You can find release notes and installation instructions at: http://docs.hp.com As I recall, the basic install will give you licenses for two concurrent users. Additional licenses can be activated by installing the license upgrade. This requires a key to activate. The keys were provided by HP with the upgrade based on the number of licenses the user had previously bought. As with the software, those "Free" license upgrades are probably no longer available. Some of the CDs included applications but, you need keys to install them. An alternative is to download and install apps from the HPUX freeware site (http://hpux.cs.utah.edu ). Send me your address off list and I'll get a copy of the OS to you. NOTE: You'll need a bootable CD player to install the software. ALSO --- If any your disks already have an OS installed, there is a simple way to circumvent the ROOT password. SteveRob >From: jarkko.teppo@er-grp.com >Reply-To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org >To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org >Subject: HP 9000/847S >Date: Wed, 3 Oct 2001 09:16:35 +0300 > >Hello, >I just picked up a 9K 847S, upgraded to H50 with two SCSI-buses, one mux >panel, a few disks and 384MB of memory (hmmmmm...). I'm not sure on the >ten year rule as I'm relatively clueless regarding this machine. This is >my second PA-RISC machine and it seems refreshingly better than the 840. > >A few questions: >a) Introduction date ? >b) Where can I get HP-UX 10.x cheaply :)? (ie. for free) > >-- >jht _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp From steven_j_robertson at hotmail.com Wed Oct 3 08:08:31 2001 From: steven_j_robertson at hotmail.com (Steve Robertson) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:24 2005 Subject: Central Florida Junk Fest report. Message-ID: I was able to see them yesterday but, now they are gone. SteveRob >From: "Glen Goodwin" >Reply-To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org >To: >Subject: Re: Central Florida Junk Fest report. >Date: Tue, 2 Oct 2001 23:40:16 -0400 > >Hey Mike, I'm getting a 404 on all of these :>( > > > The pics didn't come out very well with alot of cc gear hiding in the >shade, > > but here they are: > > > > http://personal.lig.bellsouth.net/lig/d/o/dogas/Jf1.jpg > > http://personal.lig.bellsouth.net/lig/d/o/dogas/Jf2.jpg > > http://personal.lig.bellsouth.net/lig/d/o/dogas/Jf3.jpg > > > > > > > ;) > > > - Mike: dogas@bellsouth.net > _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp From dogas at bellsouth.net Wed Oct 3 08:06:15 2001 From: dogas at bellsouth.net (Mike) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:24 2005 Subject: Semi OT: Radio Shack Armatron & May '85 issue of Radio-Electronics References: Message-ID: <001101c14c0c$2ff88820$4819d7d1@DOMAIN> From: Chris > Can you get pic 2,3 or 6 to open? I can't get them to work (your OK, I reuploaded 2,3, and 6 to the same spot. Try them again at: http://personal.lig.bellsouth.net/lig/d/o/dogas/arm2.tif http://personal.lig.bellsouth.net/lig/d/o/dogas/arm3.tif http://personal.lig.bellsouth.net/lig/d/o/dogas/arm6.tif ;) - Mike: dogas@bellsouth.net From dogas at bellsouth.net Wed Oct 3 08:08:25 2001 From: dogas at bellsouth.net (Mike) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:24 2005 Subject: Central Florida Junk Fest report. References: <01ce01c14a18$b1bfc490$caef9a8d@ajp166><3.0.2.32.20011001071502.01c3e0f4@obregon.multi.net.co><011c01c14abc$e9436620$88881442@DOMAIN> <3.0.6.32.20011003084317.007abe60@mailhost.intellistar.net> Message-ID: <001701c14c0c$7d747ff0$4819d7d1@DOMAIN> From: Joe > >> I took a few digital pics and will post them shortly. > > > >Well, my cheezy digital cam strikes again > > Something besides your camera struck, all threee of your links are bad! > I had to dump some space to copy the Armitron article pages, as soon as someone gets a clean copy set, I'll repost them. Please stand by... ;) - Mike: dogas@bellsouth.net From rmeenaks at olf.com Wed Oct 3 08:48:10 2001 From: rmeenaks at olf.com (Ram Meenakshisundaram) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:24 2005 Subject: Semi OT: Radio Shack Armatron & May '85 issue ofRadio-Electronics References: Message-ID: <3BBB171A.376412B0@olf.com> Mike Ford wrote: > >>I am planning on converting the Radio Shack Armatron to run off the > >>parallel port > > The armatron is just ONE motor, everything is done with clutches and gears, > ie making one controlable is likely more work than just building an arm > from scratch. That is correct, but is has been done. As the link I provided shows. They used solenoids to move the joysticks around. The May '85 issue shows how to remove the one motor and add multiple motors to the joints. The Mobile Armatron is A LOT easier as Tony pointed out, but it is not as cool looking as the SuperArmatron or the original Armatron.... Ram -- ,,,, /'^'\ ( o o ) -oOOO--(_)--OOOo------------------------------------- | Ram Meenakshisundaram | | Senior Software Engineer | | OpenLink Financial Inc | | .oooO Phone: (516) 227-6600 x267 | | ( ) Oooo. Email: rmeenaks@olf.com | ---\ (----( )-------------------------------------- \_) ) / (_/ From rmeenaks at olf.com Wed Oct 3 08:54:01 2001 From: rmeenaks at olf.com (Ram Meenakshisundaram) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:24 2005 Subject: Semi OT: Radio Shack Armatron & May '85 issue of Radio-Electronics References: <000901c14bb3$377554b0$0362d6d1@DOMAIN> Message-ID: <3BBB1879.15BC9EEE@olf.com> Mike wrote: > From: Chris > > >The May '85 Radio-Electronics has the necessary instructions, sooo I was > > > > > >wondering if someone would be kind enought to either scan or mail me the > > > > > >article. > > > > I hate to sound like an AOL'er, but ME TOO! (that is, email me the > > I have found the 5/85 issue and scanned in the pages. They're each about > 1.2 meg so fair warning. Also, I don't really have space to keep these > online so someone please copy them and host them somewhere else. > > http://personal.lig.bellsouth.net/lig/d/o/dogas/arm1.tif > http://personal.lig.bellsouth.net/lig/d/o/dogas/arm2.tif > http://personal.lig.bellsouth.net/lig/d/o/dogas/arm3.tif > http://personal.lig.bellsouth.net/lig/d/o/dogas/arm4.tif > http://personal.lig.bellsouth.net/lig/d/o/dogas/arm5.tif > http://personal.lig.bellsouth.net/lig/d/o/dogas/arm6.tif > > Enjoy > > ;) > - Mike: dogas@bellsouth.net Thanks a lot Mike! I really appreciate this. Ram -- ,,,, /'^'\ ( o o ) -oOOO--(_)--OOOo------------------------------------- | Ram Meenakshisundaram | | Senior Software Engineer | | OpenLink Financial Inc | | .oooO Phone: (516) 227-6600 x267 | | ( ) Oooo. Email: rmeenaks@olf.com | ---\ (----( )-------------------------------------- \_) ) / (_/ From rmeenaks at olf.com Wed Oct 3 09:14:43 2001 From: rmeenaks at olf.com (Ram Meenakshisundaram) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:24 2005 Subject: Semi OT: Radio Shack Armatron & May '85 issue of Radio-Electronics References: <001101c14c0c$2ff88820$4819d7d1@DOMAIN> Message-ID: <3BBB1D53.CFBFE25@olf.com> Mike wrote: > From: Chris > > Can you get pic 2,3 or 6 to open? I can't get them to work (your > > OK, I reuploaded 2,3, and 6 to the same spot. Try them again at: > > http://personal.lig.bellsouth.net/lig/d/o/dogas/arm2.tif > http://personal.lig.bellsouth.net/lig/d/o/dogas/arm3.tif > http://personal.lig.bellsouth.net/lig/d/o/dogas/arm6.tif > > ;) > - Mike: dogas@bellsouth.net Hmmm, is it me or is everyone else having problems with arm2.tif and arm3.tif? I was able to open arm6.tif though.... Ram -- ,,,, /'^'\ ( o o ) -oOOO--(_)--OOOo------------------------------------- | Ram Meenakshisundaram | | Senior Software Engineer | | OpenLink Financial Inc | | .oooO Phone: (516) 227-6600 x267 | | ( ) Oooo. Email: rmeenaks@olf.com | ---\ (----( )-------------------------------------- \_) ) / (_/ From dogas at bellsouth.net Wed Oct 3 10:08:34 2001 From: dogas at bellsouth.net (Mike) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:25 2005 Subject: Semi OT: Radio Shack Armatron & May '85 issue of Radio-Electronics References: <001101c14c0c$2ff88820$4819d7d1@DOMAIN> <3BBB1D53.CFBFE25@olf.com> Message-ID: <017f01c14c1d$46386c70$5b62d6d1@DOMAIN> From: Ram Meenakshisundaram > > Hmmm, is it me or is everyone else having problems with arm2.tif and > arm3.tif? > I was able to open arm6.tif though.... > Hmm, WANGIMG.EXE shows pages 2 and 3 here and both times AceFTP and bellsouth.net said the transfers went through... I just finished emailing Chris pages 2&3. Hopefully they'll work this way and he'll post them publicly, otherwise I'll privately email them to you but this is excruciating with a 33.6k modem... Hope it works this time... - Mike: dogas@bellsouth.net From mikeford at socal.rr.com Wed Oct 3 10:18:23 2001 From: mikeford at socal.rr.com (Mike Ford) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:25 2005 Subject: Altair 8800a on EBAY In-Reply-To: <003601c14c07$53268540$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> References: Message-ID: >Though the "old computer" market has reflected little that resembles any >sort of >common sense. I can't imagine why you'd believe that an item, the supply of >which is finite, and the demand for which seems to have grown steadily >since its >introduction, in spite of its qualitative aspects, (meaning I think it is, >was, >and always will be a bit of rubbish, but that's from where I sit) would >decrease >in the future. Its value hasn't increased, but its price has. That's the way >of things collectable. After a certain point, its technical merits are >completely irrelevant. Think of it as a big, clunky, indian-head penny. > >I'd say your guesstimate of a decrease in the future is based more on wishful >thinking than on a realistic view of the collectors' probable behavior. I have no interest in owning one for myself, and base my guess on what has happened in other collectible markets. I am guessing that a fair percentage of ownership is now with "investors" as opposed to collectors, and that for "most" collectors after a couple of years the excitement will wear off, and they will be ready to sell with the first dip in the market price. How well are the replicas selling? From mythtech at Mac.com Wed Oct 3 10:40:27 2001 From: mythtech at Mac.com (Chris) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:25 2005 Subject: Semi OT: Radio Shack Armatron & May '85 issue of Radio-Electronics Message-ID: >Hmmm, is it me or is everyone else having problems with arm2.tif and >arm3.tif? >I was able to open arm6.tif though.... > >Ram Yes, there was something wrong with the images 2,3 and 6... but thanks to Mike's infinite patience... I now have a complete set. The pages will be available on my web site in JPEG format (cuts them from about 1.2mb tiffs down to about 200k jpegs) and in a PDF "collection". They should be available by the time you read this (or within a few minutes after) at -chris From mythtech at Mac.com Wed Oct 3 10:54:19 2001 From: mythtech at Mac.com (Chris) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:25 2005 Subject: Radio Shack Armatron NEW page Message-ID: Ok.. the May 85 Radio-Electronics pages have been moved. The (or should I say A, since others are welcome to mirror them) page to download them is: There are 6 pages, you can DL them individually (approx 150k each JPEGs), or you can download the single PDF of the pages (approx 5mb). They can stay here until someone that owns the copyright to them yells at me to take them down... or until further notice (which means, by tomorrow, I will have forgotten they are on my site, and they will end up being there pretty much forever). If anyone wants the original TIFF files, let me know. There was no real difference between the TIFF and the JPEG, except that the JPEG is about 4 times smaller. I have no plans on posting the TIFFs, but I will be archiving them to CD if anyone decides they want them. Thanks go out to Mike for taking the time to scan these, and work with me to get a good copy of them. -chris From dittman at dittman.net Wed Oct 3 11:15:33 2001 From: dittman at dittman.net (Eric Dittman) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:25 2005 Subject: VAX 4000 Power Cord (BA440) In-Reply-To: <2346036.999647984@[172.18.201.102]> from "Brian Harrington" at Sep 04, 2001 11:59:45 PM Message-ID: <200110031615.f93GFYD22782@narnia.int.dittman.net> > > I remember a couple of months ago there was discussion on > > the proper cable for a BA440 power supply (normal North > > American three prong power cord but with a notch where it > > plugs in to the power supply). Was there a consensus on > > the designation (and any place in the US that sell them)? > > 1-800-DIGITAL, P/N BN20A-2E worked for me about a year ago. I think > they were about $10 each. The often overlooked "VAX 4000 Site Preparation > Guide" just happens to have a three page appendix devoted to power cable > part numbers. Now that's documentation. :-) I just received my new power cord for my BA440. The part number above has changed. The new part number is 17-00083-43. The currect price is $11. Now I've got a power cord that I know has the proper rating so I can quit using the one I made. -- Eric Dittman dittman@dittman.net Check out the DEC Enthusiasts Club at http://www.dittman.net/ From allain at panix.com Wed Oct 3 11:39:38 2001 From: allain at panix.com (John Allain) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:25 2005 Subject: Altair 8800a on EBAY References: <006c01c14c08$dcc2fc60$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> Message-ID: <021401c14c2a$1f151fa0$21fe54a6@ibm23xhr06> Richard Erlacher said: > The Altair was never a computer that one interested in computing > would have bought for what the kit cost.... So what Was the serious computer to buy for that era? It would probably be impossibly expensive, leaving many, including the serious, without anything. John A. From spc at conman.org Wed Oct 3 11:59:23 2001 From: spc at conman.org (Sean 'Captain Napalm' Conner) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:25 2005 Subject: Semi OT: Radio Shack Armatron & May '85 issue of Radio-Electronics In-Reply-To: <001101c14c0c$2ff88820$4819d7d1@DOMAIN> from "Mike" at Oct 03, 2001 09:06:15 AM Message-ID: <200110031659.MAA10017@conman.org> It was thus said that the Great Mike once stated: > > From: Chris > > Can you get pic 2,3 or 6 to open? I can't get them to work (your > > OK, I reuploaded 2,3, and 6 to the same spot. Try them again at: > > http://personal.lig.bellsouth.net/lig/d/o/dogas/arm2.tif > http://personal.lig.bellsouth.net/lig/d/o/dogas/arm3.tif > http://personal.lig.bellsouth.net/lig/d/o/dogas/arm6.tif I just resnagged them and you can view them at http://www.flummux.org/radio/ The original ones I snagged earlier are still there under the original name, while the new ones have a `.1' extention. If someone can test them and get back to me, I would appreciate it. -spc (They are different, even if they are the same file size ... ) From mhstein at usa.net Wed Oct 3 12:39:09 2001 From: mhstein at usa.net (M H Stein) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:25 2005 Subject: Cromemco S100 systems Message-ID: <01C14C10.E1934F80@mse-d03> Any Cromemco fans on this list? I've got piles of systems, cards & manuals looking for a home (Toronto area) mike mhstein@usa.net From mhstein at usa.net Wed Oct 3 12:36:26 2001 From: mhstein at usa.net (M H Stein) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:25 2005 Subject: Hyperion System disk needed Message-ID: <01C14C10.DE121800@mse-d03> Does anyone have a system disk for a Hyperion that they could image and e-mail to me? I'd be most grateful. Also, I have a second Hyperion for parts if anybody needs anything (Toronto area) Thanks, mike mhstein@usa.net From mldrew at drewtech.com Wed Oct 3 13:01:17 2001 From: mldrew at drewtech.com (Michael L. Drew) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:25 2005 Subject: IBM S/36 5363 Question Message-ID: <3BBB526D.B55AF3DF@drewtech.com> My $10.00 (not including packing and shipping... Ouch!!!) System 36-5363 arrived today!! It is much bigger than I thought! The case is built like a tank How do I get it open??? I got the back cover off, no problem... There is no obvious way in. Any hints would be greatly appreciated. Mike -- =============================================================================== Michael L. Drew Drew Technologies, Inc. 41 Enterprise Drive Ann Arbor, MI 48103 Phone: (734) 623-8080 Fax: (734) 623-8082 =============================================================================== From mikeford at socal.rr.com Wed Oct 3 13:16:37 2001 From: mikeford at socal.rr.com (Mike Ford) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:25 2005 Subject: Altair 8800a on EBAY In-Reply-To: <021401c14c2a$1f151fa0$21fe54a6@ibm23xhr06> References: <006c01c14c08$dcc2fc60$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> Message-ID: >Richard Erlacher said: >> The Altair was never a computer that one interested in computing >> would have bought for what the kit cost.... > >So what Was the serious computer to buy for that era? >It would probably be impossibly expensive, leaving many, >including the serious, without anything. > >John A. DEC something? Tandy 10? Basic4? Rotten core, I can't remember the one I really want to, Micron 100, maybe something with an A or T at the start, but it was a whole chassis with smoked glass doors etc., not some hobby machine. From edick at idcomm.com Wed Oct 3 13:33:25 2001 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:25 2005 Subject: Altair 8800a on EBAY References: <006c01c14c08$dcc2fc60$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> <021401c14c2a$1f151fa0$21fe54a6@ibm23xhr06> Message-ID: <002501c14c39$e3e0ec60$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> If I remember correctly, the Altair, by the time one had the kits to build a complete computer, and if one didn't mind tracking down the errata sheets for each kit, and fixing the design errors, of which there were enough, was almost impossibly expensive, too. My first home computer only cost me $90 or so for all the components and boards, not to mention a box and power supply, of which the latter two were the largest part of the cost. The next largest cost after the box and power supply parts, was the 5" TV, which I hacked into a monitor. The boards cost about $22 for the bunch and the Keyboard cost about $10. I had a couple of grocery sacks of 21L02's that served as memory, the bunch of which came on scrapped KIM-2 and KIM-3 boards, which I got for six-pack, and used some wirewrap sockets that I scrounged from a simulation project that used tons of them. Of course I had to desolder the IC's from their boards, and unwrap and desolder the wirewrap sockets. The components in the WW sockets were useless, as they had been stock-numbered and I didn't want to figure out what they were. Building up an Altair back in the '70's cost about what an eBay Altair costs nowadays, by the time you figure in the cost of the fixes and the cost of the new components. If you wanted to save dough, you bought scrap boards and became good at scrounging the parts without destroying them. By comparison with the Altair, the Imsai, which was more or less the same thing, but had a more ostentatious front panel, worked much better, and their stuff generally worked out of the box or assembled as issued, with a few notable exceptions, including the early front panel. AFAIK, the early Altair front panel generally requires extensive modification, or disconnection from the system if you want the computer to work. It was, methinks, intended more to teach the user about how a computer works, when it works, rather than to serve as a truly useable front panel, though, under the right conditions and with the right boards, it was useable, even when the CPU was supposed to run as well. Dick ----- Original Message ----- From: "John Allain" To: Sent: Wednesday, October 03, 2001 10:39 AM Subject: Re: Altair 8800a on EBAY > Richard Erlacher said: > > The Altair was never a computer that one interested in computing > > would have bought for what the kit cost.... > > So what Was the serious computer to buy for that era? > It would probably be impossibly expensive, leaving many, > including the serious, without anything. > > John A. > > > From cmcmanis at mcmanis.com Wed Oct 3 14:28:57 2001 From: cmcmanis at mcmanis.com (Chuck McManis) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:25 2005 Subject: Altair 8800a on EBAY In-Reply-To: References: <021401c14c2a$1f151fa0$21fe54a6@ibm23xhr06> <006c01c14c08$dcc2fc60$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20011003122751.00a89010@mcmanis.com> > >So what Was the serious computer to buy for that era? > >It would probably be impossibly expensive, leaving many, > >including the serious, without anything. > >John A. Obviously it was the H-11 from Heathkit. A "real" minicomputer rather than the Altair "toy." It could even run Fortan after you built it unlike the Altair that could only run BASIC until much, much later. --Chuck From foxvideo at wincom.net Wed Oct 3 14:40:33 2001 From: foxvideo at wincom.net (Charles E. Fox) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:25 2005 Subject: IBM S/36 5363 Question In-Reply-To: <3BBB526D.B55AF3DF@drewtech.com> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20011003153743.00a5c410@mail.wincom.net> At 02:01 PM 03/10/2001 -0400, you wrote: >My $10.00 (not including packing and shipping... Ouch!!!) >System 36-5363 arrived today!! > >It is much bigger than I thought! > >The case is built like a tank > >How do I get it open??? > >I got the back cover off, no problem... > >There is no obvious way in. > >Any hints would be greatly appreciated. > >Mike > > > > >-- > >=============================================================================== > >Michael L. Drew >Drew Technologies, Inc. >41 Enterprise Drive >Ann Arbor, MI 48103 >Phone: (734) 623-8080 >Fax: (734) 623-8082 >=============================================================================== Take the back off, look for 5/16 hex head screws in top back corners. If I remember right removing these will let cover come off forward. Mine has a couple of depressions on sides near front to pull it with. Cheers Charlie Fox Chas E. Fox Video Productions 793 Argyle Rd. Windsor ON N8Y 3J8 foxvideo@wincom.net Check out: Camcorder Kindergarten at http://chasfoxvideo.com From edick at idcomm.com Wed Oct 3 14:50:51 2001 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:25 2005 Subject: Altair 8800a on EBAY References: <021401c14c2a$1f151fa0$21fe54a6@ibm23xhr06> <006c01c14c08$dcc2fc60$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> <5.1.0.14.0.20011003122751.00a89010@mcmanis.com> Message-ID: <006001c14c44$b509f3e0$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> When did the H-11 become available, and what did it cost? Dick ----- Original Message ----- From: "Chuck McManis" To: Sent: Wednesday, October 03, 2001 1:28 PM Subject: Re: Altair 8800a on EBAY > > > >So what Was the serious computer to buy for that era? > > >It would probably be impossibly expensive, leaving many, > > >including the serious, without anything. > > >John A. > > Obviously it was the H-11 from Heathkit. A "real" minicomputer rather than > the Altair "toy." It could even run Fortan after you built it unlike the > Altair that could only run BASIC until much, much later. > > --Chuck > > From jos.mar at bluewin.ch Wed Oct 3 16:11:18 2001 From: jos.mar at bluewin.ch (jos.mar) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:25 2005 Subject: Philips machines (and AMT DAPs) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <01100323230700.00493@jos> On Wed, 03 Oct 2001, you wrote: > > Mr. Fox, > > From the machines mentioned in the subject: line, I would have guessed > this message was partially aimed at me, athough I have never been called > 'Fox' :-).... > > I do have a few P800 machines, and a fair amount of documentation for them. > > > I am looking for a P857 computer myself. > > Yes, I'd like an P856 or P857 as well if one ever turns up in the UK. > It's the one main subseries I've not managed to track down yet... > Around 6 to 7 P856's / P857's were scrapped at my workplace around 5 years ago. I saved one complete system and a few CPU and core boards . The machines were used in production testing of watch IC's. I did not have more room at the time, which is a shame because they where nice, real blinken-light machines. Separate rows of switches and lights for address and data, separate switches to select one of 16 cpu registers, etc. Jos Dreesen From edick at idcomm.com Wed Oct 3 14:54:43 2001 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:25 2005 Subject: Altair 8800a on EBAY References: <006c01c14c08$dcc2fc60$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> Message-ID: <006601c14c45$41178780$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> The Altair ad in Pop-Tronics or popular mechanics or whatever, came out in '75, didn't it? Once the Altair was "out there" a number of computer makers came out with their own versions of S-100-based machine, e.g. th Alpha-Micro, which was reputed to be every bit competitive with the '11's. I don't know how they compared in cost, however. The AM was "sort-of" S-100, in that it used S-100 memory, but I can't say whether it worked with other devices. The Alpha Micro was pretty sought-after among the lip-service, but I never saw one in someone's possession. Dick ----- Original Message ----- From: "Mike Ford" To: Sent: Wednesday, October 03, 2001 12:16 PM Subject: Re: Altair 8800a on EBAY > >Richard Erlacher said: > >> The Altair was never a computer that one interested in computing > >> would have bought for what the kit cost.... > > > >So what Was the serious computer to buy for that era? > >It would probably be impossibly expensive, leaving many, > >including the serious, without anything. > > > >John A. > > DEC something? > Tandy 10? > Basic4? > > Rotten core, I can't remember the one I really want to, Micron 100, maybe > something with an A or T at the start, but it was a whole chassis with > smoked glass doors etc., not some hobby machine. > > > From knightstalkerbob at netscape.net Wed Oct 3 15:34:08 2001 From: knightstalkerbob at netscape.net (Bob Mason) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:25 2005 Subject: Semi OT: Radio Shack Armatron & May '85 issue of Radio-Electronics Message-ID: <44E51E0E.753DC9E0.CF1A260E@netscape.net> Greets, arm6.tif.1 worked this time, but 2 & 3 still show "Not a valid TIFF" in Paint Shop Pro. Bob Mason "Sean 'Captain Napalm' Conner" wrote: >It was thus said that the Great Mike once stated: >> >> From: Chris >> > Can you get pic 2,3 or 6 to open? I can't get them to work (your >> >> OK, I reuploaded 2,3, and 6 to the same spot. Try them again at: >> >> http://personal.lig.bellsouth.net/lig/d/o/dogas/arm2.tif >> http://personal.lig.bellsouth.net/lig/d/o/dogas/arm3.tif >> http://personal.lig.bellsouth.net/lig/d/o/dogas/arm6.tif > > I just resnagged them and you can view them at > > http://www.flummux.org/radio/ > > The original ones I snagged earlier are still there under the original >name, while the new ones have a `.1' extention. If someone can test them >and get back to me, I would appreciate it. > > -spc (They are different, even if they are the same file size ... ) > > -- Bob Mason 2x Amiga 500's, GVP A530 (40mhz 68030/68882, 8meg Fast, SCSI), 1.3/3.1, 2meg Chip, full ECS chipset, EZ135, 1084S, big harddrives, 2.2xCD Gateway Performance 500 Piece 'o Crap, 'ME, 128meg, 20Gig, flatbed. Heathkit H-89A, 64K RAM, hard and soft-sectored floppies, SigmaSoft and Systems 256K RAM Drive/Print Spooler/Graphics board HDOS 2 & CP/M 2.2.03/2.2.04 __________________________________________________________________ Your favorite stores, helpful shopping tools and great gift ideas. Experience the convenience of buying online with Shop@Netscape! http://shopnow.netscape.com/ Get your own FREE, personal Netscape Mail account today at http://webmail.netscape.com/ From hansp at aconit.org Wed Oct 3 15:50:20 2001 From: hansp at aconit.org (Hans B Pufal) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:25 2005 Subject: Error messages, was IBM ROM BASIC or lack thereof References: Message-ID: <3BBB7A0C.6030301@aconit.org> Tony Duell wrote: > Actually, one thing that really annoys me are error messages that don't > describe the real problem, but only the most likely cause. I need to know > waht's really going on so that I can fix it. Odd, that.... It's not that they don't describe the real problem that annoys me most it's messages like "File not found" with no indication of what file was being looked for. An error message should dump all the (relevant) information available at the point when the error was detected. -- HBP From hansp at aconit.org Wed Oct 3 15:56:34 2001 From: hansp at aconit.org (Hans B Pufal) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:25 2005 Subject: IBM ROM BASIC or lack thereof References: Message-ID: <3BBB7B82.8040308@aconit.org> gwynp@artware.qc.ca wrote: > On 30-Sep-2001 Tony Duell wrote: > >>There was one time I was glad I had a true IBM PC/XT and not a clone. I >>needed ROM BASIC. The reason was, my floppy controller had suffered a >>hardward failure. The machine managed to give up trying to boot from >>floppies, and fell into ROM BASIC. Where I could use OUT commands to >>send values to the floppy controller ports, and I could look at signals >>on the floppy controller card with a logic probe. Took me about 5 minutes >>to find the dead 74LS273 latch that was holding the 8272 in the reset >>state. >> >>If I'd not had BASIC in ROM, I'd have had a long day ahead of me trying >>to debug that machine... >> > > You, sir, are, and I mean this in the best possible way, INSANE. I am in > awe. Not at all. Many years ago I developed a tiny basic for a machine for the very purpose of allowing an engineer to write small test programs and "scope loops", short sequences of operations used to make scoping of signals possible. Its a great tools for that. As a fun project at the moment I am reimplementing tiny BASIC on the pc (yes I'm sure I could find one on the web but...) Looks like it will need about 2kb (it's 1800 bytes right now but missing a couple of features) I have little hope but I will try and see if I can get it incorporated into the BIOS my employer develops. -- HBP From rigdonj at intellistar.net Wed Oct 3 16:20:29 2001 From: rigdonj at intellistar.net (Joe) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:25 2005 Subject: Altair 8800a on EBAY In-Reply-To: <006601c14c45$41178780$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> References: <006c01c14c08$dcc2fc60$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20011003172029.0079ea10@mailhost.intellistar.net> At 01:54 PM 10/3/01 -0600, you wrote: >The Altair ad in Pop-Tronics or popular mechanics or whatever, came out in '75, >didn't it? I'm pretty certain that it was the cover article in the Jan 1976 issue of Popular Electronics. Once the Altair was "out there" a number of computer makers came out >with their own versions of S-100-based machine, e.g. th Alpha-Micro, which was >reputed to be every bit competitive with the '11's. I don't know how they >compared in cost, however. The AM was "sort-of" S-100, in that it used S-100 >memory, but I can't say whether it worked with other devices. I used to have an AM-100. I don't know a lot about it but I do know that it used the S-100 bus but it was a 16 bit system. It had to fetch two 8 bit words just like the original IBM PC. > >The Alpha Micro was pretty sought-after among the lip-service, but I never saw >one in someone's possession. I had one but finally sold it since I coulden't find any docs, manuals, SW or anything else for. I couldn't even find the instruction set for the CPU! Joe > >Dick > >----- Original Message ----- >From: "Mike Ford" >To: >Sent: Wednesday, October 03, 2001 12:16 PM >Subject: Re: Altair 8800a on EBAY > > >> >Richard Erlacher said: >> >> The Altair was never a computer that one interested in computing >> >> would have bought for what the kit cost.... >> > >> >So what Was the serious computer to buy for that era? >> >It would probably be impossibly expensive, leaving many, >> >including the serious, without anything. >> > >> >John A. >> >> DEC something? >> Tandy 10? >> Basic4? >> >> Rotten core, I can't remember the one I really want to, Micron 100, maybe >> something with an A or T at the start, but it was a whole chassis with >> smoked glass doors etc., not some hobby machine. >> >> >> > > From rigdonj at intellistar.net Wed Oct 3 16:13:11 2001 From: rigdonj at intellistar.net (Joe) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:25 2005 Subject: Altair 8800a on EBAY In-Reply-To: References: <021401c14c2a$1f151fa0$21fe54a6@ibm23xhr06> <006c01c14c08$dcc2fc60$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20011003171311.007ae370@mailhost.intellistar.net> At 11:16 AM 10/3/01 -0700, you wrote: >>Richard Erlacher said: >>> The Altair was never a computer that one interested in computing >>> would have bought for what the kit cost.... >> >>So what Was the serious computer to buy for that era? I don't think there was one that as individual could afford. >>It would probably be impossibly expensive, leaving many, >>including the serious, without anything. Corrert. That was the appeal of the Altair. The average person could afford the basic kit ($500) and could afford to add on to it as they went. Yes, the Altair had some design flaws but it could be made to work and anything else was simple out of the question due to cost. I would guess that least expensive "real" computer at that time would have been something like the IBM 5100 but it was priced at about $7000! I have to agree with Richard, I think the Altair will always be the holy grail of computer collecting (and will be priced accordingly) simply because of it's position in history. Joe >> >>John A. > >DEC something? >Tandy 10? >Basic4? > >Rotten core, I can't remember the one I really want to, Micron 100, maybe >something with an A or T at the start, but it was a whole chassis with >smoked glass doors etc., not some hobby machine. > > > From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Oct 3 14:52:18 2001 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:25 2005 Subject: IBM ROM BASIC or lack thereof In-Reply-To: <20011003040528.LNEO20284.imf11bis.bellsouth.net@thegoodw> from "Glen Goodwin" at Oct 3, 1 00:03:42 am Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1165 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20011003/7e732741/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Oct 3 14:43:20 2001 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:25 2005 Subject: IBM ROM BASIC or lack thereof In-Reply-To: from "gwynp@artware.qc.ca" at Oct 2, 1 10:33:16 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 917 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20011003/923b1347/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Oct 3 14:48:37 2001 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:25 2005 Subject: Altair 8800a on EBAY In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20011002202844.00a3bec0@mail.zipcon.net> from "Geoff Reed" at Oct 2, 1 08:30:30 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 473 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20011003/30a25408/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Oct 3 14:45:36 2001 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:25 2005 Subject: Model 12 <-> Okidata 600e In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20011002202554.031b87a0@mail.zipcon.net> from "Geoff Reed" at Oct 2, 1 08:26:27 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 537 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20011003/8b3509e8/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Oct 3 14:57:16 2001 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:25 2005 Subject: IBM ROM BASIC or lack thereof In-Reply-To: <20011003042445.IWBD18961.imf15bis.bellsouth.net@thegoodw> from "Glen Goodwin" at Oct 3, 1 00:23:00 am Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 2331 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20011003/9a3ec34c/attachment.ksh From mhstein at usa.net Wed Oct 3 17:17:51 2001 From: mhstein at usa.net (M H Stein) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:25 2005 Subject: AIM65 stuff - Toronto area Message-ID: <01C14C38.A0F3DB20@mse-d03> Anybody want or need any AIM65 stuff? Boards, keyboards, manuals but not many working printers or displays. Also a new AIM65-40 40 column printer (not compatible with the 20col model) mike mhstein@usa.net From mhstein at usa.net Wed Oct 3 17:20:16 2001 From: mhstein at usa.net (M H Stein) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:25 2005 Subject: Vector MZ's (Toronto area) Message-ID: <01C14C38.A47CB3C0@mse-d03> Anybody need any cards or parts for a Vector MZ S100 system? mike mhstein@usa.net From mhstein at usa.net Wed Oct 3 17:22:53 2001 From: mhstein at usa.net (M H Stein) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:25 2005 Subject: Scrapping LA100 & Diablo printers Message-ID: <01C14C38.A7F4C380@mse-d03> Am scrapping several DEC LA100 DM and Diablo/Wang HyType DW printers; anybody need any parts before they go? Also have manuals including Service manual for the LA100. mike mhstein@usa.net From mhstein at usa.net Wed Oct 3 17:27:47 2001 From: mhstein at usa.net (M H Stein) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:25 2005 Subject: Toshiba T300 (Toronto area) Message-ID: <01C14C39.381A9E80@mse-d03> Anybody interested in a Toshiba T300 (Dual 600Kb floppy, semi-PC-compatible) w/disks & manuals? mike mhstein@usa.net From geoffr at zipcon.net Wed Oct 3 17:37:06 2001 From: geoffr at zipcon.net (Geoff Reed) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:25 2005 Subject: Model 12 <-> Okidata 600e In-Reply-To: <005a01c14c07$ffc70680$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> References: <5.1.0.14.2.20011002202554.031b87a0@mail.zipcon.net> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20011003153535.03879140@mail.zipcon.net> I've hooked a HPLJ3 up to an old mod 16 (same chassis at mod 12) IIRC the RS supplied printer cable was a 34-pin card edge on one end, ribbon cable, then the centronics style 36 pin at the other. I would bet though that he's hooked upo to the serial port. mod 12's and 16's used DB25F connections for their serial. At 06:36 AM 10/3/01 -0600, you wrote: >If he's done the obvious, i.e. hooking the Oki 600e to a serial port he's >going >to have troubles. > >If he has the parallel port spec, it MIGHT work, provided the RS model drives >all the signals as the PC does, which I'd guess it doesn't. > >I've never even seen a model 12, so I don't know how accessible the driver >is in >the software. > >Dick > >----- Original Message ----- >From: "Geoff Reed" >To: >Sent: Tuesday, October 02, 2001 9:26 PM >Subject: Re: Model 12 <-> Okidata 600e > > > > The model 12 should have a parallel port IIRC... it may be a card-edge > > style (it's been a while since i've looked at one) > > > > > > At 08:56 PM 10/2/01 -0500, you wrote: > > >I'm trying to help a friend of a friend interface an Okidata 600e printer > > >with a Radio Shack Model 12 computer. Any idea if this is possible? He > > >claims to have created an interface cable, but it doesn't work. > > > > > >Robert Matthews > > > > From edick at idcomm.com Wed Oct 3 17:43:21 2001 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:25 2005 Subject: Scrapping LA100 & Diablo printers References: <01C14C38.A7F4C380@mse-d03> Message-ID: <000d01c14c5c$ce157720$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> I noticed that I still have a tractor feed and a sheet feeder (model F10) for Diablo printers. The F10 fits the 630 and the 620, among others, (those are the ones on which I've used it) and the tractor feed is from a 630. I've also got an extra logic board for a 630, and a few printwheels. These are all avaiable for the cost of postage. Dick ----- Original Message ----- From: "M H Stein" To: "'ClassicComputers'" Sent: Wednesday, October 03, 2001 4:22 PM Subject: Scrapping LA100 & Diablo printers > Am scrapping several DEC LA100 DM and Diablo/Wang HyType DW printers; anybody need any parts before they go? > Also have manuals including Service manual for the LA100. > > mike > mhstein@usa.net > > From vance at ikickass.org Wed Oct 3 17:55:01 2001 From: vance at ikickass.org (Absurdly Obtuse) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:25 2005 Subject: IBM S/36 5363 Question In-Reply-To: <3BBB526D.B55AF3DF@drewtech.com> Message-ID: Nice find! Want technical docs? Peace... Sridhar On Wed, 3 Oct 2001, Michael L. Drew wrote: > My $10.00 (not including packing and shipping... Ouch!!!) > System 36-5363 arrived today!! > > It is much bigger than I thought! > > The case is built like a tank > > How do I get it open??? > > I got the back cover off, no problem... > > There is no obvious way in. > > Any hints would be greatly appreciated. > > Mike > > > > > -- > > =============================================================================== > > Michael L. Drew > Drew Technologies, Inc. > 41 Enterprise Drive > Ann Arbor, MI 48103 > Phone: (734) 623-8080 > Fax: (734) 623-8082 > =============================================================================== > > > From KenzieM at sympatico.ca Wed Oct 3 17:51:59 2001 From: KenzieM at sympatico.ca (Mike Kenzie) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:25 2005 Subject: Cromemco S100 systems References: <01C14C10.E1934F80@mse-d03> Message-ID: <00b801c14c5e$868933e0$0101a8c0@sympatico.ca> ----- Original Message ----- From: "M H Stein" To: Sent: Wednesday, October 03, 2001 1:39 PM Subject: Cromemco S100 systems > Any Cromemco fans on this list? I've got piles of systems, cards & manuals looking for a home (Toronto area) > > mike > mhstein@usa.net I'm in Ottawa, but should be able to make a trip down south towards November for the Winter Fair. I'm interested in obtaining a working S-100 machine. I'll have to check my Hyperion and see if it has the system disks with it. I thought it was just a standard DOS disk, but haven't run it in a long while. Mike Collector of Vintage Computers (www.ncf.ca/~ba600) From vance at ikickass.org Wed Oct 3 17:56:07 2001 From: vance at ikickass.org (Absurdly Obtuse) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:25 2005 Subject: Altair 8800a on EBAY In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Depending on the exact time frame, it could be the DEC VAX 11/730 that was the machine everyone was drooling over. Or the IBM S/38. Peace... Sridhar On Wed, 3 Oct 2001, Mike Ford wrote: > >Richard Erlacher said: > >> The Altair was never a computer that one interested in computing > >> would have bought for what the kit cost.... > > > >So what Was the serious computer to buy for that era? > >It would probably be impossibly expensive, leaving many, > >including the serious, without anything. > > > >John A. > > DEC something? > Tandy 10? > Basic4? > > Rotten core, I can't remember the one I really want to, Micron 100, maybe > something with an A or T at the start, but it was a whole chassis with > smoked glass doors etc., not some hobby machine. > > From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Oct 3 17:37:53 2001 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:25 2005 Subject: Model 12 <-> Okidata 600e In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20011003153535.03879140@mail.zipcon.net> from "Geoff Reed" at Oct 3, 1 03:37:06 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 437 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20011003/b158ea2b/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Oct 3 17:39:21 2001 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:25 2005 Subject: Error messages, was IBM ROM BASIC or lack thereof In-Reply-To: <3BBB7A0C.6030301@aconit.org> from "Hans B Pufal" at Oct 3, 1 10:50:20 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 721 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20011003/2a36b3d0/attachment.ksh From pete at dunnington.u-net.com Wed Oct 3 18:10:21 2001 From: pete at dunnington.u-net.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:25 2005 Subject: Altair 8800a on EBAY In-Reply-To: "Richard Erlacher" "Re: Altair 8800a on EBAY" (Oct 3, 13:54) References: <006c01c14c08$dcc2fc60$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> <006601c14c45$41178780$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> Message-ID: <10110040010.ZM3497@mindy.dunnington.u-net.com> On Oct 3, 13:54, Richard Erlacher wrote: > e.g. th Alpha-Micro, which was > reputed to be every bit competitive with the '11's. I don't know how they > compared in cost, however. The AM was "sort-of" S-100, in that it used S-100 > memory, but I can't say whether it worked with other devices. > > The Alpha Micro was pretty sought-after among the lip-service, but I never saw > one in someone's possession. I was offered one several years ago. I'm not sure of the configuration, but the storage was 2 x 8" floppies and I think it was a lot cheaper than a small PDP-11. Unfortunately, I didn't appreciate what I was looking at, turned down the (free) offer, and apparently it ended up in a skip (dumpster). Thank you for reminding me to kick myself :-) -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager University of York From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Oct 3 17:42:37 2001 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:25 2005 Subject: IBM ROM BASIC or lack thereof In-Reply-To: <3BBB7B82.8040308@aconit.org> from "Hans B Pufal" at Oct 3, 1 10:56:34 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1028 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20011003/b69c0885/attachment.ksh From donm at cts.com Wed Oct 3 18:13:50 2001 From: donm at cts.com (Don Maslin) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:25 2005 Subject: Model 12 <-> Okidata 600e In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20011003153535.03879140@mail.zipcon.net> Message-ID: On Wed, 3 Oct 2001, Geoff Reed wrote: > I've hooked a HPLJ3 up to an old mod 16 (same chassis at mod 12) IIRC the > RS supplied printer cable was a 34-pin card edge on one end, ribbon cable, > then the centronics style 36 pin at the other. I would bet though that > he's hooked upo to the serial port. mod 12's and 16's used DB25F > connections for their serial. As did most CP/M machines of the era. - don > At 06:36 AM 10/3/01 -0600, you wrote: > >If he's done the obvious, i.e. hooking the Oki 600e to a serial port he's > >going > >to have troubles. > > > >If he has the parallel port spec, it MIGHT work, provided the RS model drives > >all the signals as the PC does, which I'd guess it doesn't. > > > >I've never even seen a model 12, so I don't know how accessible the driver > >is in > >the software. > > > >Dick > > > >----- Original Message ----- > >From: "Geoff Reed" > >To: > >Sent: Tuesday, October 02, 2001 9:26 PM > >Subject: Re: Model 12 <-> Okidata 600e > > > > > > > The model 12 should have a parallel port IIRC... it may be a card-edge > > > style (it's been a while since i've looked at one) > > > > > > > > > At 08:56 PM 10/2/01 -0500, you wrote: > > > >I'm trying to help a friend of a friend interface an Okidata 600e printer > > > >with a Radio Shack Model 12 computer. Any idea if this is possible? He > > > >claims to have created an interface cable, but it doesn't work. > > > > > > > >Robert Matthews > > > > > > > > From pcw at mesanet.com Wed Oct 3 18:26:33 2001 From: pcw at mesanet.com (Peter C. Wallace) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:25 2005 Subject: Scrapping LA100 & Diablo printers In-Reply-To: <01C14C38.A7F4C380@mse-d03> Message-ID: On Wed, 3 Oct 2001, M H Stein wrote: > Am scrapping several DEC LA100 DM and Diablo/Wang HyType DW printers; anybody need any parts before they go? > Also have manuals including Service manual for the LA100. > > mike > mhstein@usa.net > > If any of the Diablo printers are DTC models they have interesting ancient Prolog cards in them (proto-STDbus?) using an Intel 4040! Peter Wallace From geoffr at zipcon.net Wed Oct 3 19:07:25 2001 From: geoffr at zipcon.net (Geoff Reed) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:25 2005 Subject: Model 12 <-> Okidata 600e In-Reply-To: References: <5.1.0.14.2.20011003153535.03879140@mail.zipcon.net> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20011003170638.0378fc20@mail.zipcon.net> At 04:13 PM 10/3/01 -0700, you wrote: >As did most CP/M machines of the era. > > - don yup. just looked at my md3... db25f serial connectors. same with my Suns i have here... Ibm was just bass ackwards i guess.... From spc at conman.org Wed Oct 3 19:04:39 2001 From: spc at conman.org (Sean 'Captain Napalm' Conner) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:25 2005 Subject: IBM ROM BASIC or lack thereof In-Reply-To: from "Tony Duell" at Oct 03, 2001 08:57:16 PM Message-ID: <200110040004.UAA10697@conman.org> It was thus said that the Great Tony Duell once stated: > > > > Because INT 18h doesn't check for bootable devices. It is the entry to > > > ROM BASIC. It may well be that the most common time that it is called is > > > from the bootstrap after both floppy and hard disk boots have failed, but > > > that doesn't mean it's the only time it can be called. > > > > Tony, are you simply being obstinate here, or didn't you see the above > > reference to "common user?" Do you think "common users" -- not to be > > disrespectful to plain old computer users -- read BIOS listings??? > > No, perhaps not (although it would probably be a good thing if they did > :-)). On the other hand, that is _no excuse_ for displaying misleading or > incorrect error messages. > > INT 18h has _nothing_ to do with bootable devices. It's the entry for ROM > BASIC. To make it display a message saying 'No bootable devices found' is > plain misleading. While the PC XT BIOS Listing (and the PC Jr BIOS Listing) both refer to INT 18h as the ROM BASIC entry, under the Data General/1 Laptop I have that entry (I don't have the BIOS listing, but I do have the BIOS programming guide and hardware reference manual) as being reserved (and in fact, if it's called, you'll be dumped into the mini office suite-esque program that allows terminal IO and word pressing at a minimum). At the time the PC was first introduced, the clone manufactorers pretty much had to follow *what* the PC BIOS did, but in their case, they *didn't* have a BASIC to install in the BIOS. At the time, it probably made sense to say ``no ROM BASIC'' but really, nowadays, do even IBM PCs come with BASIC ROM? I think that in the abscence of ROM BASIC or some other internal program that loads, saying ``no bootable device'' is acceptable. If a user later adds a ROM with BASIC, it can follow the established guidelines to intercepting INT 18h with its own code. > > Yes, and even more odd is that you fail to see that "no bootable device" at > > power-up actually does describe the problem, whereas "no ROM BASIC" does > > The only way you'll convince me that 'no bootable device' is the right > error message is that if it is displayed by the bootstrap when both > floppy and hard boots have failed _and that the bootstrap does not call > INT 18h_. Because as I keep on saying, INT 18h is nothing to do with the > bootstrap. And writing the PDP-10 instruction set in assembly language on a Pentium does *not* make it microcode! It's an emulator. Tony, if your PC doesn't *have* BASIC at the end of INT 18h, calling it the ROM BASIC loader doesn't make sense; at best it's a reserved call that shouldn't be used. > > not, since the system in question would never call INT 18h if a bootable > > device were available (unless some insane programmer called it, and I > > seriously doubt that you can show me a commercially available program which > > does this). > > And supposing it is called for some reason (either a bug in the code, > attempting to execute unitialised/data memory, or a deliberate attempt to > call ROM BASIC). Is then 'no bootable devices' a reasonable error to > give? When the machine wasn't attempting to boot anything. Tell me of a PCompatible (not made by IBM) that has BASIC hanging off INT 18h, then maybe I'll concede the point 8-) Also, while INT 19h is the bootstrap loader, you *cannot* simply reload the operating system by calling INT 19h. In fact, if any code does (other than the BIOS after the POST but before INT 18h) it is in fact, defective. -spc (Looked at it another way, INT 18h is the resident program loader) From spc at conman.org Wed Oct 3 19:08:14 2001 From: spc at conman.org (Sean 'Captain Napalm' Conner) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:25 2005 Subject: Error messages, was IBM ROM BASIC or lack thereof In-Reply-To: from "Tony Duell" at Oct 03, 2001 11:39:21 PM Message-ID: <200110040008.UAA10706@conman.org> It was thus said that the Great Tony Duell once stated: > > > It's not that they don't describe the real problem that annoys me most > > it's messages like "File not found" with no indication of what file was > > being looked for. An error message should dump all the (relevant) > > information available at the point when the error was detected. > > Ah, but all that relevant information is part of the 'real problem'. > 'File Not Found' doesn't describe the problem at all. 'Could not open > FOO.DAT' is a lot more helpful. Sorry, but it's still not helpful. Could it not be opened because the file doesn't exist? The volume it's on doesn't exist? Do I have permissions to open the file? Is it locked by another application? Was there a hardware fai~~~~~~~~~~~~[ NO CARRIER OK From spc at conman.org Wed Oct 3 19:15:41 2001 From: spc at conman.org (Sean 'Captain Napalm' Conner) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:25 2005 Subject: IBM ROM BASIC or lack thereof In-Reply-To: from "Tony Duell" at Oct 03, 2001 11:42:37 PM Message-ID: <200110040015.UAA10720@conman.org> It was thus said that the Great Tony Duell once stated: > > I wish more manufacturers would put a program in the boot ROM that allows > reading and writing to memory, running (machine code) programs and > preferably also reading/writing I/O ports (if they're not memory mapped). > It makes debugging the machine a lot easier if it can't boot a disk (or > if you don't have a bootable disk for the machine, at least you can do > something with it. > > Tiny (or otherwise) BASIC allows one to do this. So does Forth. Or just a > little machine code monitor. With ROM space being so cheap these days > you'd have thought they could find room for something like this... Not enough return on investment for that to be done by the BIOS writers or the PC manufacturers---why waste time on a feature that *may* get used by less than 1% of 1% of the users? On the other hand, why not make an ISA card with your own ROM monitor? Plug it into a PC, during POST, the BIOS will see the extention ROM and allow it to hook into the vector table, so you could hook INT 18h on any PC with this board. -spc (I think you have enough equipment to do that, right?) From foo at siconic.com Wed Oct 3 19:17:23 2001 From: foo at siconic.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:26 2005 Subject: Altair 8800a on EBAY In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.32.20011003171311.007ae370@mailhost.intellistar.net> Message-ID: On Wed, 3 Oct 2001, Joe wrote: > I have to agree with Richard, I think the Altair will always be the > holy grail of computer collecting (and will be priced accordingly) > simply because of it's position in history. Naw, too common to be a holy grail, let alone THE holy grail. The "holy grail" of computer collecting would be the mythical Altair prototype that was supposedly shipped to Popular Electronics but never made it. My guess is that there never was one, but that this was a story that Ed Robert's made up instead of admitting he wasn't done with the prototype :) Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org From foo at siconic.com Wed Oct 3 19:19:46 2001 From: foo at siconic.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:26 2005 Subject: Altair 8800a on EBAY In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.32.20011003172029.0079ea10@mailhost.intellistar.net> Message-ID: On Wed, 3 Oct 2001, Joe wrote: > At 01:54 PM 10/3/01 -0600, you wrote: > >The Altair ad in Pop-Tronics or popular mechanics or whatever, came out in > '75, > >didn't it? > > > I'm pretty certain that it was the cover article in the Jan 1976 issue > of Popular Electronics. It was the January 1975 issue, with part 2 in February 1975. Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Oct 3 17:47:09 2001 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:26 2005 Subject: Philips machines (and AMT DAPs) In-Reply-To: <01100323230700.00493@jos> from "jos.mar" at Oct 3, 1 11:11:18 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1021 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20011003/01ef6fd9/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Oct 3 19:23:59 2001 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:26 2005 Subject: Error messages, was IBM ROM BASIC or lack thereof In-Reply-To: <200110040008.UAA10706@conman.org> from "Sean 'Captain Napalm' Conner" at Oct 3, 1 08:08:14 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 2623 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20011004/b64d9f34/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Oct 3 19:38:28 2001 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:26 2005 Subject: IBM ROM BASIC or lack thereof In-Reply-To: <200110040015.UAA10720@conman.org> from "Sean 'Captain Napalm' Conner" at Oct 3, 1 08:15:41 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1778 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20011004/26cfbda1/attachment.ksh From cbajpai at mediaone.net Wed Oct 3 20:50:43 2001 From: cbajpai at mediaone.net (Chandra Bajpai) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:26 2005 Subject: Altair 8800a on EBAY In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Are the original articles available anywhere on the web? I'd love to read them. Thanks, Chandra -----Original Message----- From: owner-classiccmp@classiccmp.org [mailto:owner-classiccmp@classiccmp.org]On Behalf Of Sellam Ismail Sent: Wednesday, October 03, 2001 8:20 PM To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org Subject: Re: Altair 8800a on EBAY On Wed, 3 Oct 2001, Joe wrote: > At 01:54 PM 10/3/01 -0600, you wrote: > >The Altair ad in Pop-Tronics or popular mechanics or whatever, came out in > '75, > >didn't it? > > > I'm pretty certain that it was the cover article in the Jan 1976 issue > of Popular Electronics. It was the January 1975 issue, with part 2 in February 1975. Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- -- International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org From optimus at canit.se Wed Oct 3 06:40:57 2001 From: optimus at canit.se (Iggy Drougge) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:26 2005 Subject: IBM ROM BASIC or lack thereof In-Reply-To: <20011003042445.IWBD18961.imf15bis.bellsouth.net@thegoodw> Message-ID: <597.676T2850T7606319optimus@canit.se> Glen Goodwin skrev: >Tony, are you simply being obstinate here, or didn't you see the above >reference to "common user?" Do you think "common users" -- not to be >disrespectful to plain old computer users -- read BIOS listings??? >What I mean to say is: Suzy Six-pack, who ekes out a living typing up MS >Word documents, doesn't know shit about the internals of the machine she >uses. But Glen, that's why there are Macs. The very nature of the PC is that of strange "features" for backwards compatibility. If you do get a PC, those features are a selling point. -- En ligne avec Thor 2.6a. From optimus at canit.se Wed Oct 3 06:42:17 2001 From: optimus at canit.se (Iggy Drougge) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:26 2005 Subject: IBM ROM BASIC or lack thereof In-Reply-To: <3BBA99CF.38F3F23C@verizon.net> Message-ID: <528.676T850T7624043optimus@canit.se> Jan Koller skrev: >> Why not display something understandable to a common user, such >> as "no bootable device?" >The same common user that needs their ports both labeled and color coded? Really, who doesn't? While I've not seen many colour-coded computers, I've seldom seen any without properly labeled ports. Are you going to set up your computer by trial-or-error? -- En ligne avec Thor 2.6a. "I believe OS/2 is destined to be the most important operating system, and possibly program, of all time..." Bill Gates 1988 From optimus at canit.se Wed Oct 3 06:45:44 2001 From: optimus at canit.se (Iggy Drougge) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:26 2005 Subject: HP 9000/847S In-Reply-To: <20011003091635.A28609@mail.er-grp.com> Message-ID: <320.676T2200T7655585optimus@canit.se> jarkko.teppo skrev: >b) Where can I get HP-UX 10.x cheaply :)? (ie. for free) I might be able to copy some DATs of version 10, assuming they may be read (and copied) in my SCSI DDS2, since the one in our 832 is broken. At material costs, of course. -- En ligne avec Thor 2.6a. Hackers do it with fewer instructions. From optimus at canit.se Wed Oct 3 08:22:32 2001 From: optimus at canit.se (Iggy Drougge) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:26 2005 Subject: Bad bad DECstation In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <808.676T1600T8624889optimus@canit.se> Tony Duell skrev: >> What the hell is going on? Is it possible to save the LK201s? We're running >> short of DEC keyboards as it is, and we certainly don't need this. >I assume you've tried the dead keyboards on (say) a VT220 and that they >are certainly no longer operational. That was a good idea. It turned out that both keyboards seemed to work fine on a VT420. So at least the only thing which has been damaged (AFAIK) is the controller or something on the DECstation. Any ideas what to look for inside that one? I'll try to terminate the mouse and keyboard ports, and see if that would help to make it operable. Then I could run some more thorough tests in the PROM monitor. -- En ligne avec Thor 2.6a. Menyn ?r inte lika sexig som telnet, det ?r h?rt men sant. Petri Oksanen #38 p? SUGA BBS From optimus at canit.se Wed Oct 3 06:31:36 2001 From: optimus at canit.se (Iggy Drougge) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:26 2005 Subject: IBM ROM BASIC or lack thereof In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <610.676T1800T7515321optimus@canit.se> gwynp skrev: >On 30-Sep-2001 Tony Duell wrote: >> >> If I'd not had BASIC in ROM, I'd have had a long day ahead of me trying >> to debug that machine... >You, sir, are, and I mean this in the best possible way, INSANE. I am in >awe. I was just thinking that Tony treats his PC as if it had never gained market acceptance and thus has to be treated in the same careful way as some non-PC machine. A lot of us do the same kind of thing to our computers, I think, only not to PCs. -- En ligne avec Thor 2.6a. I use OpenBSD 'coz it has a cool blowfish logo. The other BSDs look satanic. - Anonymous Coward From vaxman at qwest.net Wed Oct 3 21:16:36 2001 From: vaxman at qwest.net (Clint Wolff (VAX collector)) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:26 2005 Subject: Scrapping LA100 & Diablo printers In-Reply-To: <01C14C38.A7F4C380@mse-d03> Message-ID: I have a working Diable 620 daisywheel printer in Denver, CO... No reasonable offer refused... clint On Wed, 3 Oct 2001, M H Stein wrote: > Am scrapping several DEC LA100 DM and Diablo/Wang HyType DW printers; anybody need any parts before they go? > Also have manuals including Service manual for the LA100. > > mike > mhstein@usa.net > > > From vance at ikickass.org Wed Oct 3 21:19:58 2001 From: vance at ikickass.org (Absurdly Obtuse) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:26 2005 Subject: IBM ROM BASIC or lack thereof In-Reply-To: <200110040004.UAA10697@conman.org> Message-ID: On Wed, 3 Oct 2001, Sean 'Captain Napalm' Conner wrote: > Tell me of a PCompatible (not made by IBM) that has BASIC hanging off INT > 18h, then maybe I'll concede the point 8-) I don't mean to take sides on this argument, but my Everex 286 XT has BASIC on INT18h. Peace... Sridhar From vance at ikickass.org Wed Oct 3 21:21:02 2001 From: vance at ikickass.org (Absurdly Obtuse) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:26 2005 Subject: Altair 8800a on EBAY In-Reply-To: Message-ID: I think The Holy Grail of computer collecting is something along the lines of the DEC PDP-1. Or maybe an EDSAC. Peace... Sridhar On Wed, 3 Oct 2001, Sellam Ismail wrote: > On Wed, 3 Oct 2001, Joe wrote: > > > I have to agree with Richard, I think the Altair will always be the > > holy grail of computer collecting (and will be priced accordingly) > > simply because of it's position in history. > > Naw, too common to be a holy grail, let alone THE holy grail. > > The "holy grail" of computer collecting would be the mythical Altair > prototype that was supposedly shipped to Popular Electronics but never > made it. My guess is that there never was one, but that this was a > story that Ed Robert's made up instead of admitting he wasn't done with > the prototype :) > > Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ > International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org > From sloboyko at yahoo.com Wed Oct 3 22:09:43 2001 From: sloboyko at yahoo.com (Loboyko Steve) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:26 2005 Subject: IBM ROM BASIC or lack thereof In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20011004030943.96245.qmail@web11801.mail.yahoo.com> --- Absurdly Obtuse wrote: > On Wed, 3 Oct 2001, Sean 'Captain Napalm' Conner > wrote: > > > Tell me of a PCompatible (not made by IBM) that > has BASIC hanging off INT > > 18h, then maybe I'll concede the point 8-) > > I don't mean to take sides on this argument, but my > Everex 286 XT has > BASIC on INT18h. Hmmm...are there EPROM's in it, or ROMs? I built a PC compatible with a bare board and stuffed the chips and soldered it when I was broke in college. The BIOS it came with wasn't very PC compatible. So (and I'm not making any excuses for this..) I wrote a program in disk based GW-BASIC (I actually BOUGHT it) that looked like it did something when in reality it was writing 2048K ROM images of the BIOS and BASIC ROMS of a real IBM PC to floppy. I took it to an IBM store (IBM had "stores" then) and told the salesman that I wanted to know if my program would really run on an IBM PC/XT. I ran it, it "worked", I said, "thank you very much", went to work, blew the EPROMS, stuffed 'em in my motherboard, and then, my PC, although it had a wooden case and a power supply shielded with Erector Set parts, was really, really, definitely IBM PC compatible!! __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? NEW from Yahoo! GeoCities - quick and easy web site hosting, just $8.95/month. http://geocities.yahoo.com/ps/info1 From erd_6502 at yahoo.com Wed Oct 3 22:16:29 2001 From: erd_6502 at yahoo.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:26 2005 Subject: Altair 8800a on EBAY In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20011004031629.14587.qmail@web20105.mail.yahoo.com> --- Absurdly Obtuse wrote: > > Depending on the exact time frame, it could be the DEC VAX 11/730 that > was the machine everyone was drooling over. Or the IBM S/38. For *home*? I first laid hands on an 11/730 when it was current, but we never drooled over it. Drooled while waiting for it to boot, perhaps... (That was fixed by a properly built boot cassette - the one from DEC took about 20 min to seek around and find its stuff). It's right up there with the MicroVAX-I for speed! OTOH, it's the second smallest Unibus VAX (the 11/725 is smaller - same backplane as the 11/730-Z, but in a roll-around box, not a 19" rack), and you could use one in an office/home setting. -ethan __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? NEW from Yahoo! GeoCities - quick and easy web site hosting, just $8.95/month. http://geocities.yahoo.com/ps/info1 From erd_6502 at yahoo.com Wed Oct 3 22:26:46 2001 From: erd_6502 at yahoo.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:26 2005 Subject: Scrapping Tektronix 4695 (was Re: Scrapping LA100 & Diablo printers) In-Reply-To: <01C14C38.A7F4C380@mse-d03> Message-ID: <20011004032646.58233.qmail@web20104.mail.yahoo.com> --- M H Stein wrote: > Am scrapping several DEC LA100 DM and Diablo/Wang HyType DW printers; > anybody need any parts before they go? > Also have manuals including Service manual for the LA100. In the vein of printer scrappage, I'm finally going to dump my first ever and most worthless inkjet printer in the world - the Tek 4695. I got it at the Hamvention a _long_ time ago for $200 when that was a scorching deal. I found out why - I was really looking for a 4696, since AmigaDOS came with drivers for it. The '95 clogs. Bad. At least I didn't go broke buying ink for it - a former client *gave* me dozens of ink cartridges because they dumped their printer a couple years earlier. Every couple of years, I seem to make a purchase that does _not_ work out. This is the one from about 1989. Later, it was a Syquest 44Mb drive. It was nice, but the carts cost so much that I never bought any more; I just used it as an expensive 44Mb semi-fixed SCSI drive. :-( To that end, I have decided to get rid of the 4695. If anyone is foolish enough to want it, it's yours. Otherwise, if you want parts, make a wish- list and I'll see if there's anything worth scrapping out of it (I'm curious what processor is inside). You can ask for the printhead, but I think the yellow jets are fried (or impacted). -ethan __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? NEW from Yahoo! GeoCities - quick and easy web site hosting, just $8.95/month. http://geocities.yahoo.com/ps/info1 From spectre at stockholm.ptloma.edu Wed Oct 3 22:37:09 2001 From: spectre at stockholm.ptloma.edu (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:26 2005 Subject: IBM ROM BASIC or lack thereof In-Reply-To: <597.676T2850T7606319optimus@canit.se> from Iggy Drougge at "Oct 3, 1 12:40:57 pm" Message-ID: <200110040337.UAA06862@stockholm.ptloma.edu> > >What I mean to say is: Suzy Six-pack, who ekes out a living typing up MS > >Word documents, doesn't know shit about the internals of the machine she > >uses. > > But Glen, that's why there are Macs. I very much hope you aren't implying that Mac users don't know what's going on with their machines. -- ----------------------------- personal page: http://www.armory.com/~spectre/ -- Cameron Kaiser, Point Loma Nazarene University * ckaiser@stockholm.ptloma.edu -- FORTUNE: You will be hit with a lot of money. Avoid armoured trucks. ------- From erd_6502 at yahoo.com Wed Oct 3 22:38:39 2001 From: erd_6502 at yahoo.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:26 2005 Subject: Recently excavated - Dicomed 800868-00 "Color Controller Assembly" - any info? In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.32.20011003172029.0079ea10@mailhost.intellistar.net> Message-ID: <20011004033839.4462.qmail@web20106.mail.yahoo.com> I picked up this box in a pile of Apple II stuff many years ago at the local Uni surplus. It caught my eye because it was styled like an Apple floppy drive and had a connector on the back like on my Sony 1310 monitor - an 8-pin olive-drab connector with large pins. There's also one on the back of my Sony LDP-1500 laserdisc player. Anyway, it's clear that this is some sort of display device, possibly a frame buffer. It has a paddle-card for the Apple bus with a single 74LS373 on it. Internally, it has 2 banks of 4164s (128KB), a wad of 74LS273s and 74LS299s, and an NEC D72200. I can find no evidence of any ROM. It's 100% socketed. Any info out there on it? Thanks, -ethan __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? NEW from Yahoo! GeoCities - quick and easy web site hosting, just $8.95/month. http://geocities.yahoo.com/ps/info1 From acme_ent at bellsouth.net Wed Oct 3 22:44:42 2001 From: acme_ent at bellsouth.net (Glen Goodwin) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:26 2005 Subject: IBM ROM BASIC or lack thereof Message-ID: <20011004034629.CDLG7142.imf04bis.bellsouth.net@thegoodw> Jan Koller wrote: > Glen, >> Why not display something understandable to a common user, such >> as "no bootable device?" > The same common user that needs their ports both labeled and color coded? Jan -- Yes, the same user. Most of them know what "boot" means, whereas ROM and BASIC are completely foreign to them. Glen 0/0 From acme_ent at bellsouth.net Wed Oct 3 22:44:42 2001 From: acme_ent at bellsouth.net (Glen Goodwin) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:26 2005 Subject: IBM ROM BASIC or lack thereof Message-ID: <20011004034741.BVQB27500.imf00bis.bellsouth.net@thegoodw> Jan Koller wrote: > Glen, >> Why not display something understandable to a common user, such >> as "no bootable device?" > The same common user that needs their ports both labeled and color coded? Jan -- Yes, the same user. Most of them know what "boot" means, whereas ROM and BASIC are completely foreign to them. Glen 0/0 From mikeford at socal.rr.com Wed Oct 3 22:39:00 2001 From: mikeford at socal.rr.com (Mike Ford) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:26 2005 Subject: Altair 8800a on EBAY In-Reply-To: <006601c14c45$41178780$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> References: <006c01c14c08$dcc2fc60$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> Message-ID: >The Altair ad in Pop-Tronics or popular mechanics or whatever, came out in >'75, >didn't it? Once the Altair was "out there" a number of computer makers >came out >with their own versions of S-100-based machine, e.g. th Alpha-Micro, which was Thats it, the Alpha Micro. Programma International had one, and they about danced in circles around it. Totally useless payroll only machine, but it sure looked nice. From pjschilling at gcstech.net Wed Oct 3 23:11:17 2001 From: pjschilling at gcstech.net (Phil Schilling) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:26 2005 Subject: IBM S/36 5363 Question In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Sridhar, I would be interested in those tech docs. Got a S/36 5363 sitting at my office. Phil -----Original Message----- From: owner-classiccmp@classiccmp.org [mailto:owner-classiccmp@classiccmp.org]On Behalf Of Absurdly Obtuse Sent: Wednesday, October 03, 2001 5:55 PM To: Michael L. Drew Cc: 'classiccmp@classiccmp.org' Subject: Re: IBM S/36 5363 Question Nice find! Want technical docs? Peace... Sridhar On Wed, 3 Oct 2001, Michael L. Drew wrote: > My $10.00 (not including packing and shipping... Ouch!!!) > System 36-5363 arrived today!! > > It is much bigger than I thought! > > The case is built like a tank > > How do I get it open??? > > I got the back cover off, no problem... > > There is no obvious way in. > > Any hints would be greatly appreciated. > > Mike > > > > > -- > > ============================================================================ === > > Michael L. Drew > Drew Technologies, Inc. > 41 Enterprise Drive > Ann Arbor, MI 48103 > Phone: (734) 623-8080 > Fax: (734) 623-8082 > ============================================================================ === > > > From cmcmanis at mcmanis.com Wed Oct 3 23:22:28 2001 From: cmcmanis at mcmanis.com (Chuck McManis) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:26 2005 Subject: Recently excavated - Dicomed 800868-00 "Color Controller Assembly" - any info? In-Reply-To: <20011004033839.4462.qmail@web20106.mail.yahoo.com> References: <3.0.6.32.20011003172029.0079ea10@mailhost.intellistar.net> Message-ID: <5.0.0.25.2.20011003212027.026f0c40@209.185.79.193> Dicomed made a line of film recorders. I used one at the image processing lab doing 16384 x 16384 renderings of high resolution image on to 220 film. "Draft Mode" was 4096 x 4096. It consisted of a precision CRT, some optics, and a mechanical assembly that would write film one line at a time. Then switch color filters and write it again. --Chuck At 08:38 PM 10/3/01 -0700, you wrote: >I picked up this box in a pile of Apple II stuff many years ago at the >local Uni surplus. It caught my eye because it was styled like an >Apple floppy drive and had a connector on the back like on my Sony 1310 >monitor - an 8-pin olive-drab connector with large pins. There's also >one on the back of my Sony LDP-1500 laserdisc player. Anyway, it's >clear that this is some sort of display device, possibly a frame buffer. > >It has a paddle-card for the Apple bus with a single 74LS373 on it. >Internally, it has 2 banks of 4164s (128KB), a wad of 74LS273s and >74LS299s, and an NEC D72200. I can find no evidence of any ROM. It's >100% socketed. > >Any info out there on it? > >Thanks, > >-ethan > > >__________________________________________________ >Do You Yahoo!? >NEW from Yahoo! GeoCities - quick and easy web site hosting, just $8.95/month. >http://geocities.yahoo.com/ps/info1 From vance at ikickass.org Wed Oct 3 23:26:06 2001 From: vance at ikickass.org (Absurdly Obtuse) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:26 2005 Subject: IBM ROM BASIC or lack thereof In-Reply-To: <20011004030943.96245.qmail@web11801.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: I don't know if they are EPROMs, but I don't think so. It came stock with BASIC on ROM. Peace... Sridhar On Wed, 3 Oct 2001, Loboyko Steve wrote: > > --- Absurdly Obtuse wrote: > > On Wed, 3 Oct 2001, Sean 'Captain Napalm' Conner > > wrote: > > > > > Tell me of a PCompatible (not made by IBM) that > > has BASIC hanging off INT > > > 18h, then maybe I'll concede the point 8-) > > > > I don't mean to take sides on this argument, but my > > Everex 286 XT has > > BASIC on INT18h. > > Hmmm...are there EPROM's in it, or ROMs? I built a PC > compatible with a bare board and stuffed the chips and > soldered it when I was broke in college. The BIOS it > came with wasn't very PC compatible. So (and I'm not > making any excuses for this..) I wrote a program in > disk based GW-BASIC (I actually BOUGHT it) that looked > like it did something when in reality it was writing > 2048K ROM images of the BIOS and BASIC ROMS of a real > IBM PC to floppy. I took it to an IBM store (IBM had > "stores" then) and told the salesman that I wanted to > know if my program would really run on an IBM PC/XT. I > ran it, it "worked", I said, "thank you very much", > went to work, blew the EPROMS, stuffed 'em in my > motherboard, and then, my PC, although it had a wooden > case and a power supply shielded with Erector Set > parts, was really, really, definitely IBM PC > compatible!! > > > __________________________________________________ > Do You Yahoo!? > NEW from Yahoo! GeoCities - quick and easy web site hosting, just $8.95/month. > http://geocities.yahoo.com/ps/info1 > From gunther at aurora.regenstrief.org Wed Oct 3 23:30:03 2001 From: gunther at aurora.regenstrief.org (Gunther Schadow) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:26 2005 Subject: need some advice on some VAX boards ... Message-ID: <3BBBE5CB.8050809@aurora.regenstrief.org> Hi, I might purchase some VAX boards for a good price, which I need to negotiate first and I need some help with finding out if I can use those in a VAX 6000-400 and/or -600 (XMI, VAXBI) machine. Here goes the list and following are specific questions T1010 DWBUA VAXBI-UNIBUS adapter (BI side) T1022/1023 DRB32, VAXBI-DRB adapter and DR11-W adapter T1031 KFBTA (AIE) BI RD Drive Controller T1060 VAX 9000 PEM Module T2020 XMI/NI controller T2022/2023 KDM70 XMI-SI adapter pair T2027 DEMFA XMI-FDDI controller T2028-AA XMI-LSB adapter T2029-AB XMI-SCSI adapter T2036-AA KFSMA, XMI-DSSI adapter T2080-YA CIXCD-AC XMI-CI adapter (for AXP and VAX 7k/10k) The intriguing thing about this pile is that it's relatively unusual hardware. I don't have this stuff yet and I don't get it for free. If you want any of it, chime in and tell me what you'd spend. I could make a bundle order that can give yet a better basis for negotiation. Detail: T1010 DWBUA VAXBI-UNIBUS adapter (BI side) - what cab-kit assembly is needed, is this something extremely hard to find? Can you give a model number for the cab-kit so I might find it somewhere? - I might want that because I plan to have a UNIBUS cabinet besides a VAX 11/780 in the near future. I could kind of swap the Unibus between the two machines. And I could use the UNIBUS frame buffer set that I might also get sometime. T1022/1023 DRB32, VAXBI-DRB adapter and DR11-W adapter T1031 KFBTA (AIE) BI RD Drive Controller - what the heck are DRB bus and what are the accessories needed to do anything useful with it? - and what are RD drives? Old junk? Are those available? How are they connected to the KFBTA? T1060 VAX 9000 PEM Module - there is actually a bunch of other 9000 modules. Anything useful to do with this in a VAX 6000's BI bus? T2020 XMI/NI controller - is this an XMI ethernet controller? Can it be used in an 6400 XMI bus? 6600? or only a 7000 and 10000? T2022/2023 KDM70 XMI-SI adapter pair - SI bus? Is this yet another disk/tape storage bus? Availability of disks? Old or new? This isn't the same as SBI (11/780) or SDI (KDB50) right? T2027 DEMFA XMI-FDDI controller - This should work on a 6400 XMI bus, right? T2028-AA XMI-LSB adapter - Laser bus? That's the 10000's bus, right? I assume that would require a whole LSB backplane, power, etc. etc., not feasible with a VAX 6000. T2029-AB XMI-SCSI adapter - Just checking: are these -AA, -AB, etc. suffixes anything that can make or break 6400 XMI compatibility? T2036-AA KFSMA, XMI-DSSI adapter - dito -AA -AB, etc. any issues there? T2080-YA CIXCD-AC XMI-CI adapter (for AXP and VAX 7k/10k) - dito. This sounds like a cool alternative for a faster CI link than through the BI bus. Your comments on any or all of the above are appreciated. And let me know if your heart is longing for anything of it and how much you would pay. (I don't make a profit from this, I'm trying to get a good price on a bulk order.) thanks, -Gunther -- Gunther Schadow, M.D., Ph.D. gschadow@regenstrief.org Medical Information Scientist Regenstrief Institute for Health Care Adjunct Assistant Professor Indiana University School of Medicine tel:1(317)630-7960 http://aurora.regenstrief.org From acme_ent at bellsouth.net Wed Oct 3 22:44:42 2001 From: acme_ent at bellsouth.net (Glen Goodwin) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:26 2005 Subject: IBM ROM BASIC or lack thereof Message-ID: <20011004044604.CDPJ24602.imf08bis.bellsouth.net@thegoodw> Jan Koller wrote: > Glen, >> Why not display something understandable to a common user, such >> as "no bootable device?" > The same common user that needs their ports both labeled and color coded? Jan -- Yes, the same user. Most of them know what "boot" means, whereas ROM and BASIC are completely foreign to them. Glen 0/0 From acme_ent at bellsouth.net Wed Oct 3 22:55:10 2001 From: acme_ent at bellsouth.net (Glen Goodwin) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:26 2005 Subject: IBM ROM BASIC or lack thereof Message-ID: <20011004044614.CDUV24602.imf08bis.bellsouth.net@thegoodw> Jeffrey S. Sharp wrote: > You forget: when this was state of the art, the vast majority of users > were just like Tony. Well, the thing is, the message was on mobos long after it was state of the art, which was my original point -- why was the message still there, when the BASIC wasn't. Also, *no one* is/was "just like Tony" :>) (Tony -- this is a compliment ;>) Glen 0/0 From acme_ent at bellsouth.net Wed Oct 3 23:16:06 2001 From: acme_ent at bellsouth.net (Glen Goodwin) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:26 2005 Subject: IBM ROM BASIC or lack thereof Message-ID: <20011004044705.CEOP24602.imf08bis.bellsouth.net@thegoodw> > Hmmm...are there EPROM's in it, or ROMs? I built a PC > compatible with a bare board and stuffed the chips and > soldered it when I was broke in college. The BIOS it > came with wasn't very PC compatible. So (and I'm not > making any excuses for this..) I wrote a program in > disk based GW-BASIC (I actually BOUGHT it) that looked > like it did something when in reality it was writing > 2048K ROM images of the BIOS and BASIC ROMS of a real > IBM PC to floppy. I took it to an IBM store (IBM had > "stores" then) and told the salesman that I wanted to > know if my program would really run on an IBM PC/XT. I > ran it, it "worked", I said, "thank you very much", > went to work, blew the EPROMS, stuffed 'em in my > motherboard, and then, my PC, although it had a wooden > case and a power supply shielded with Erector Set > parts, was really, really, definitely IBM PC > compatible!! Brilliant move! Glen 0/0 From acme_ent at bellsouth.net Wed Oct 3 23:16:06 2001 From: acme_ent at bellsouth.net (Glen Goodwin) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:26 2005 Subject: IBM ROM BASIC or lack thereof Message-ID: <20011004044833.WGPO3809.imf16bis.bellsouth.net@thegoodw> > Hmmm...are there EPROM's in it, or ROMs? I built a PC > compatible with a bare board and stuffed the chips and > soldered it when I was broke in college. The BIOS it > came with wasn't very PC compatible. So (and I'm not > making any excuses for this..) I wrote a program in > disk based GW-BASIC (I actually BOUGHT it) that looked > like it did something when in reality it was writing > 2048K ROM images of the BIOS and BASIC ROMS of a real > IBM PC to floppy. I took it to an IBM store (IBM had > "stores" then) and told the salesman that I wanted to > know if my program would really run on an IBM PC/XT. I > ran it, it "worked", I said, "thank you very much", > went to work, blew the EPROMS, stuffed 'em in my > motherboard, and then, my PC, although it had a wooden > case and a power supply shielded with Erector Set > parts, was really, really, definitely IBM PC > compatible!! Brilliant move! Glen 0/0 From acme_ent at bellsouth.net Wed Oct 3 22:44:42 2001 From: acme_ent at bellsouth.net (Glen Goodwin) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:26 2005 Subject: IBM ROM BASIC or lack thereof Message-ID: <20011004034741.BVQB27500.imf00bis.bellsouth.net@thegoodw> Jan Koller wrote: > Glen, >> Why not display something understandable to a common user, such >> as "no bootable device?" > The same common user that needs their ports both labeled and color coded? Jan -- Yes, the same user. Most of them know what "boot" means, whereas ROM and BASIC are completely foreign to them. Glen 0/0 From vance at ikickass.org Wed Oct 3 23:56:16 2001 From: vance at ikickass.org (Absurdly Obtuse) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:26 2005 Subject: FDDI Cards In-Reply-To: <8a.d617016.28ebe267@aol.com> Message-ID: How is driver support for that one? Is there documentation for it, if I want to write a NetBSD driver for it? Is there a Linux driver? Is it DAS? Where can I get about 10? Peace... Sridhar On Tue, 2 Oct 2001 SUPRDAVE@aol.com wrote: > The only ones i've seen are SK-net brand, of which I have two in my IBM > server 95s. > > In a message dated 10/2/2001 10:17:01 PM Eastern Daylight Time, > vance@ikickass.org writes: > > << The problem with eBay though, is that many of the cards going through > there are SAS and unlabeled. That. and I've never seen an IBM FDDI/MC on > there. > > Peace... Sridhar > > On Tue, 2 Oct 2001, Gunther Schadow wrote: > > > on ebay :-) > > > > yes, I've seen them scroll through recently. Several of them. > > > > -Gunther >> > From vance at ikickass.org Wed Oct 3 23:58:44 2001 From: vance at ikickass.org (Absurdly Obtuse) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:26 2005 Subject: Altair 8800a on EBAY In-Reply-To: <20011004031629.14587.qmail@web20105.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: On Wed, 3 Oct 2001, Ethan Dicks wrote: > For *home*? I first laid hands on an 11/730 when it was current, but > we never drooled over it. Drooled while waiting for it to boot, perhaps... > (That was fixed by a properly built boot cassette - the one from DEC > took about 20 min to seek around and find its stuff). Actually, I didn't have an 11/730 back then. What I did have, though, was a good deal faster, although slightly less capable. I grew up around a DEC PDP-11/70. It was an experience I appreciate today. > It's right up there with the MicroVAX-I for speed! Yeah, but it was a hell of a lot cheaper and used less power and space than an 11/750. > OTOH, it's the second smallest Unibus VAX (the 11/725 is smaller - same > backplane as the 11/730-Z, but in a roll-around box, not a 19" rack), > and you could use one in an office/home setting. I believe that was actually the machine to which I meant to refer. 8-) Peace... Sridhar From vance at ikickass.org Wed Oct 3 23:58:39 2001 From: vance at ikickass.org (Absurdly Obtuse) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:26 2005 Subject: IBM S/36 5363 Question In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No problem. I'll head over to the IBM Technical Library and dig you up a copy. Peace... Sridhar On Wed, 3 Oct 2001, Phil Schilling wrote: > Sridhar, > I would be interested in those tech docs. Got a S/36 5363 sitting at my > office. > > Phil > > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-classiccmp@classiccmp.org > [mailto:owner-classiccmp@classiccmp.org]On Behalf Of Absurdly Obtuse > Sent: Wednesday, October 03, 2001 5:55 PM > To: Michael L. Drew > Cc: 'classiccmp@classiccmp.org' > Subject: Re: IBM S/36 5363 Question > > > > Nice find! Want technical docs? > > Peace... Sridhar > > On Wed, 3 Oct 2001, Michael L. Drew wrote: > > > My $10.00 (not including packing and shipping... Ouch!!!) > > System 36-5363 arrived today!! > > > > It is much bigger than I thought! > > > > The case is built like a tank > > > > How do I get it open??? > > > > I got the back cover off, no problem... > > > > There is no obvious way in. > > > > Any hints would be greatly appreciated. > > > > Mike > > > > > > > > > > -- > > > > > ============================================================================ > === > > > > Michael L. Drew > > Drew Technologies, Inc. > > 41 Enterprise Drive > > Ann Arbor, MI 48103 > > Phone: (734) 623-8080 > > Fax: (734) 623-8082 > > > ============================================================================ > === > > > > > > > From acme_ent at bellsouth.net Wed Oct 3 22:44:42 2001 From: acme_ent at bellsouth.net (Glen Goodwin) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:26 2005 Subject: IBM ROM BASIC or lack thereof Message-ID: <20011004034629.CDLG7142.imf04bis.bellsouth.net@thegoodw> Jan Koller wrote: > Glen, >> Why not display something understandable to a common user, such >> as "no bootable device?" > The same common user that needs their ports both labeled and color coded? Jan -- Yes, the same user. Most of them know what "boot" means, whereas ROM and BASIC are completely foreign to them. Glen 0/0 From hansp at aconit.org Thu Oct 4 00:06:57 2001 From: hansp at aconit.org (Hans B Pufal) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:26 2005 Subject: IBM ROM BASIC or lack thereof References: Message-ID: <3BBBEE71.60904@aconit.org> Tony Duell wrote: > Tiny (or otherwise) BASIC allows one to do this. So does Forth. Or just a > little machine code monitor. With ROM space being so cheap these days > you'd have thought they could find room for something like this... I agree entirely, but I suspect the reason it is not done is that there are so few people capable of using such a tool. A sad commentary I think. My argument would be, put inthe tool and perhaps it will trigger a few curious folk into learing how to use it. Which could only be a good thing. -- HBP From hansp at aconit.org Thu Oct 4 00:15:10 2001 From: hansp at aconit.org (Hans B Pufal) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:26 2005 Subject: IBM ROM BASIC or lack thereof References: <200110040004.UAA10697@conman.org> Message-ID: <3BBBF05E.9060902@aconit.org> Sean 'Captain Napalm' Conner wrote: > At the time the PC was first introduced, the clone manufactorers pretty > much had to follow *what* the PC BIOS did, but in their case, they *didn't* > have a BASIC to install in the BIOS. At the time, it probably made sense to > say ``no ROM BASIC'' but really, nowadays, do even IBM PCs come with BASIC > ROM? I think that in the abscence of ROM BASIC or some other internal program > that loads, saying ``no bootable device'' is acceptable. No that particular message is not accpectable. It would lead any rational person to check that all disk devices are connected and fucntional. A more correct message would be "No bootable media found" Our BIOS can display a "Trying device xxx" message making the final message even more useful since it is preceded by a list of devices which were tried. > If a user later adds a ROM with BASIC, it can follow the established > guidelines to intercepting INT 18h with its own code. Yes and no. In today's BIOS, INT 18 has bee "hijacked" or respecified to be an integrated part of the boot sequence. It is actually called from some bootstrap sectors to signal the fact that the media has no bootable system. Installing an option ROM with BASIC which redirects int 18 will probably cause all modern systems to fail any boot attempt and always enter BASIC. Perhaps not such a bad thing ;-) -- HBP From dittman at dittman.net Thu Oct 4 00:11:34 2001 From: dittman at dittman.net (Eric Dittman) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:26 2005 Subject: need some advice on some VAX boards ... In-Reply-To: from "Gunther Schadow" at Oct 03, 2001 11:30:03 PM Message-ID: <200110040511.f945BYc25202@narnia.int.dittman.net> > T2029-AB XMI-SCSI adapter The XMI-SCSI adapter is only supported on Alpha systems. -- Eric Dittman dittman@dittman.net Check out the DEC Enthusiasts Club at http://www.dittman.net/ From erd_6502 at yahoo.com Thu Oct 4 00:53:05 2001 From: erd_6502 at yahoo.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:26 2005 Subject: need some advice on some VAX boards ... In-Reply-To: <3BBBE5CB.8050809@aurora.regenstrief.org> Message-ID: <20011004055305.93573.qmail@web20107.mail.yahoo.com> --- Gunther Schadow wrote: > Hi, > > I might purchase some VAX boards for a good price, which I need > to negotiate first and I need some help with finding out if I > can use those in a VAX 6000-400 and/or -600 (XMI, VAXBI) machine. > Here goes the list and following are specific questions > > T1010 DWBUA VAXBI-UNIBUS adapter (BI side) Ooh! I need one of those. I have this 8200 here and two fried T1010 cards. They worked before the machine was moved here. I suspect some sort of crimped cable or something. The same chip is damaged and the same trace is *burned*, so it looks like unhealthy voltages are present on the cables. That's easy to scope out, now that I know not to just keep swapping tires until I find the flat. The first was a fluke - the machine worked on the other side of town. The second told me I have a serious problem (yes, I know, the _first_ one should have told me that, but here we are). > T1010 DWBUA VAXBI-UNIBUS adapter (BI side) > - what cab-kit assembly is needed, is this something extremely > hard to find? Can you give a model number for the cab-kit so > I might find it somewhere? I don't know what the cab kit's DEC part number is, but it's four ribbon cables, a paddle card for the head of the Unibus and a Unibus Exerciser/Terminator (not just a simple terminator). I know it's not spec'ed for larger VAXen because of the latency between the CPU and the Unibus when you have things like an XMI in the way. It did work with NI machines and direct BI machines (like my 8200). I do not recall what the largest/newest machine was that could take it. I wouldn't pay more than $50 for just the card. > - I might want that because I plan to have a UNIBUS cabinet > besides a VAX 11/780 in the near future. I could kind of > swap the Unibus between the two machines. And I could use > the UNIBUS frame buffer set that I might also get sometime. > - and what are RD drives? Old junk? Are those available? RD50 - ST506 RD51 - ST412 RD52 - Quantum 540? RD53 - Micropolis 1335 RD54 - Maxtor XT2190 RD31 - ST225 RD32 - ST241-1 (there's a couple more I forget what they are). Common on MicroVAXen, Rainbows, DECmates, and DEC Professional boxes > How are they connected to the KFBTA? No idea. __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? NEW from Yahoo! GeoCities - quick and easy web site hosting, just $8.95/month. http://geocities.yahoo.com/ps/info1 From vance at ikickass.org Thu Oct 4 01:02:28 2001 From: vance at ikickass.org (Absurdly Obtuse) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:26 2005 Subject: need some advice on some VAX boards ... In-Reply-To: <200110040511.f945BYc25202@narnia.int.dittman.net> Message-ID: Does that apply to all revisions of the XMI SCSI? Peace... Sridhar On Thu, 4 Oct 2001, Eric Dittman wrote: > > T2029-AB XMI-SCSI adapter > > The XMI-SCSI adapter is only supported on Alpha systems. > -- > Eric Dittman > dittman@dittman.net > Check out the DEC Enthusiasts Club at http://www.dittman.net/ > From acme_ent at bellsouth.net Wed Oct 3 22:55:10 2001 From: acme_ent at bellsouth.net (Glen Goodwin) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:26 2005 Subject: IBM ROM BASIC or lack thereof Message-ID: <20011004044614.CDUV24602.imf08bis.bellsouth.net@thegoodw> Jeffrey S. Sharp wrote: > You forget: when this was state of the art, the vast majority of users > were just like Tony. Well, the thing is, the message was on mobos long after it was state of the art, which was my original point -- why was the message still there, when the BASIC wasn't. Also, *no one* is/was "just like Tony" :>) (Tony -- this is a compliment ;>) Glen 0/0 From jss at subatomix.com Thu Oct 4 01:14:21 2001 From: jss at subatomix.com (Jeffrey S. Sharp) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:26 2005 Subject: Altair 8800a on EBAY In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20011004011156.L10285-100000@lepton.subatomix.com> On Wed, 3 Oct 2001, Absurdly Obtuse wrote: > I think The Holy Grail of computer collecting is something along the > lines of the DEC PDP-1. Or maybe an EDSAC. Or maybe stumbling upon a 'real' computer (i.e., one which needs no fancy rhetoric to convince people it's a computer), intact and working, that predates everything we currently know of. -- Jeffrey S. Sharp jss@subatomix.com From acme_ent at bellsouth.net Wed Oct 3 23:16:06 2001 From: acme_ent at bellsouth.net (Glen Goodwin) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:26 2005 Subject: IBM ROM BASIC or lack thereof Message-ID: <20011004044705.CEOP24602.imf08bis.bellsouth.net@thegoodw> > Hmmm...are there EPROM's in it, or ROMs? I built a PC > compatible with a bare board and stuffed the chips and > soldered it when I was broke in college. The BIOS it > came with wasn't very PC compatible. So (and I'm not > making any excuses for this..) I wrote a program in > disk based GW-BASIC (I actually BOUGHT it) that looked > like it did something when in reality it was writing > 2048K ROM images of the BIOS and BASIC ROMS of a real > IBM PC to floppy. I took it to an IBM store (IBM had > "stores" then) and told the salesman that I wanted to > know if my program would really run on an IBM PC/XT. I > ran it, it "worked", I said, "thank you very much", > went to work, blew the EPROMS, stuffed 'em in my > motherboard, and then, my PC, although it had a wooden > case and a power supply shielded with Erector Set > parts, was really, really, definitely IBM PC > compatible!! Brilliant move! Glen 0/0 From foo at siconic.com Thu Oct 4 02:32:52 2001 From: foo at siconic.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:26 2005 Subject: Altair 8800a on EBAY In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Wed, 3 Oct 2001, Mike Ford wrote: > >The Altair ad in Pop-Tronics or popular mechanics or whatever, came out in > >'75, > >didn't it? Once the Altair was "out there" a number of computer makers > >came out > >with their own versions of S-100-based machine, e.g. th Alpha-Micro, which was > > Thats it, the Alpha Micro. Programma International had one, and they > about danced in circles around it. Totally useless payroll only > machine, but it sure looked nice. There's a name I haven't heard in a while. I remember when I got my first Apple ][+, I had a few disks with some Programma International software. One was an Applesoft program editor enhancement. Did you work for them? Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org From jarkko.teppo at er-grp.com Thu Oct 4 04:11:09 2001 From: jarkko.teppo at er-grp.com (jarkko.teppo@er-grp.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:26 2005 Subject: HP 9000/847S In-Reply-To: ; from steven_j_robertson@hotmail.com on Wed, Oct 03, 2001 at 09:06:19AM -0400 References: Message-ID: <20011004121109.A26565@mail.er-grp.com> On Wed, Oct 03, 2001 at 09:06:19AM -0400, Steve Robertson wrote: > > As I recall, the basic install will give you licenses for two concurrent > users. Additional licenses can be activated by installing the license > upgrade. This requires a key to activate. The keys were provided by HP with > the upgrade based on the number of licenses the user had previously bought. > As with the software, those "Free" license upgrades are probably no longer > available. > This just in! Free Unlimited User License for 10.20 (11.0, 11i)! Film at 11! http://www.software.hp.com/cgi-bin/swdepot_parser.cgi/cgi/displayProducts.p=l?group_type=3Dsearch&group_name=3Dunlimited+user+license http://www.hp.com/workstations/products/unix/operating/hpux11i/licensing/index.html That's a nice thing to do. Though probably off-topic as 10.20 isn't 10 years old. -- jht From mikeford at socal.rr.com Thu Oct 4 04:34:09 2001 From: mikeford at socal.rr.com (Mike Ford) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:26 2005 Subject: Altair 8800a on EBAY In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: >> Thats it, the Alpha Micro. Programma International had one, and they >> about danced in circles around it. Totally useless payroll only >> machine, but it sure looked nice. > >There's a name I haven't heard in a while. I remember when I got my first >Apple ][+, I had a few disks with some Programma International software. >One was an Applesoft program editor enhancement. > >Did you work for them? I went to school with Randy Hyde at UC Riverside, and we shared a couple early business ventures. He started working actively for Programma on the Apple II, and talked me into taking the Atari 400 Programma received from Atari along with the first developement cartridges that existed outside of Atari. I ported two or three generic games in basic to the Atari, which failed to get my name written into all the history books (guess which game). The wiz kid at PI was IIRC a 14 year old named William Robinson, who managed to buy a Porsche 928 a couple years before he had a license. The secret of success is that the games were based off the top sellers in toy stores, ie connect 4 etc., so I spent a few days at ToyRus, then cranked out about half a dozen pretty darn good games. The catch was that Atari, while they supplied assembler and basic developement cartridges, and had a "agreement" with PI, they would not release any details on the Antic or Pokey video and sound chips. No special graphics or sound, meant rotten sales and I ended up not getting a dime for close to a years work. Some months later a different software house, I am thinking Beagle Bros, but maybe Sierra, fully cracked the Atari specialty chips and wrote a reference manual. It was some serious bucks, and I decided to move on to embedded programming where the pay checks could be cashed and rent paid. One of the things I hope to find "intact" in all my junk are the source files for the various games, which I am pretty sure I printed to paper, put on cassette, and even saved to a floppy. Back to the topic Programma was in an annex of the Ambasidor Hotel, and we used to walk up the service enterance through the corridor Bobby Kenndy was killed in. The two guys running the place were real characters, Dave Gordon, who was the biggest collector I ever met (bootlegs, tapes etc.), and I can't remember the other guys name, but he was a serious computer guy from Rand I think, and he and Randy cooked up PIE, Programma Internation Editor. Basically Randy did a real slick assembly language port of the Rand concept, so even on a plain Apple II it was FAST. It supported the radical for its time features of scrolling (vertically) though a document, cutting and pasting, with its strength also its weakness. All the commands were keyboard codes, ctrl this or that, which gave it a bit of a learning curve, but once mastered it really cooked. From spectre at stockholm.ptloma.edu Thu Oct 4 07:55:08 2001 From: spectre at stockholm.ptloma.edu (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:26 2005 Subject: Altair 8800a on EBAY In-Reply-To: from Mike Ford at "Oct 3, 1 08:39:00 pm" Message-ID: <200110041255.FAA11014@stockholm.ptloma.edu> > Thats it, the Alpha Micro. Programma International had one, and they about > danced in circles around it. Totally useless payroll only machine, but it > sure looked nice. The Salvation Army, at least for a while (I'm sure they're all PC these days), used Alpha Micro systems as local church management servers. I rapidly found several holes in AMOS allowing me to get right down to a command line, leading the local administrator to tell me not to do that again :-) Until that time, though, I was able to use the system to dial-out and call my local Internet dialup shell. But, of course, I did this after hours. -- ----------------------------- personal page: http://www.armory.com/~spectre/ -- Cameron Kaiser, Point Loma Nazarene University * ckaiser@stockholm.ptloma.edu -- Mickey Mouse wears a Spiro Agnew watch. ------------------------------------ From jfoust at threedee.com Thu Oct 4 08:01:10 2001 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:27 2005 Subject: Scrapping Tektronix 4695 (was Re: Scrapping LA100 & Diablo printers) In-Reply-To: <20011004032646.58233.qmail@web20104.mail.yahoo.com> References: <01C14C38.A7F4C380@mse-d03> Message-ID: <4.3.2.7.0.20011004080005.022c4ed0@pc> At 08:26 PM 10/3/01 -0700, Ethan Dicks wrote: >Later, it was a Syquest 44Mb >drive. It was nice, but the carts cost so much that I never bought any >more; I just used it as an expensive 44Mb semi-fixed SCSI drive. :-( Hey, if you need a few Syquest drives or carts ... :-) - John From optimus at canit.se Thu Oct 4 08:57:55 2001 From: optimus at canit.se (Iggy Drougge) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:27 2005 Subject: Error messages, was IBM ROM BASIC or lack thereof In-Reply-To: <200110040008.UAA10706@conman.org> Message-ID: <364.677T2750T8976311optimus@canit.se> Sean 'Captain Napalm' Conner skrev: > Sorry, but it's still not helpful. Could it not be opened because the >file doesn't exist? The volume it's on doesn't exist? Do I have >permissions to open the file? Is it locked by another application? Was >there a hardware fai~~~~~~~~~~~~[ What, doesn't MS-DOS have a "Why" command? ;-) -- En ligne avec Thor 2.6a. From optimus at canit.se Thu Oct 4 09:07:48 2001 From: optimus at canit.se (Iggy Drougge) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:27 2005 Subject: IBM ROM BASIC or lack thereof In-Reply-To: <20011004030943.96245.qmail@web11801.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <1252.677T2400T9076441optimus@canit.se> Loboyko Steve skrev: >soldered it when I was broke in college. The BIOS it >came with wasn't very PC compatible. So (and I'm not >making any excuses for this..) I wrote a program in >disk based GW-BASIC (I actually BOUGHT it) that looked >like it did something when in reality it was writing >2048K ROM images of the BIOS and BASIC ROMS of a real >IBM PC to floppy. I took it to an IBM store (IBM had >"stores" then) and told the salesman that I wanted to >know if my program would really run on an IBM PC/XT. I >ran it, it "worked", I said, "thank you very much", >went to work, blew the EPROMS, stuffed 'em in my LOL! That's so absolutely twisted! And a great story! But how did you get 2048K onto a floppy? And are IBM BIOSes really that big? Not even Amiga ROMs are that big, and the Atari fits an entire WIMP OS into a 128 K ROM. -- En ligne avec Thor 2.6a. Amiga: (noun) The most technologically advanced computer that hardly anyone cares about. Use in sentence: "I wanted to buy an Amiga for its low price and great color graphics, but everyone else seems to be using IBMs or Macintoshes. So, to remain compatible with the rest of the world, I spent three times as much on a Macintosh and got only half the graphics capability of an Amiga." From optimus at canit.se Thu Oct 4 09:11:35 2001 From: optimus at canit.se (Iggy Drougge) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:27 2005 Subject: Model 12 <-> Okidata 600e In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20011003170638.0378fc20@mail.zipcon.net> Message-ID: <319.677T1750T9115131optimus@canit.se> Geoff Reed skrev: >>As did most CP/M machines of the era. >yup. just looked at my md3... db25f serial connectors. same with my Suns i >have here... Ibm was just bass ackwards i guess.... Doesn't it just stem from the philosophical problem which microcomputers posed WRT DTE and DCE (?)? -- En ligne avec Thor 2.6a. From CochraneS at sgstool.com Thu Oct 4 08:20:17 2001 From: CochraneS at sgstool.com (Steve Cochrane) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:27 2005 Subject: Osborne OCC1 Message-ID: I have come across an Osborne model OCC1 Serial # 134033. This unit has the 300 baud modem. It also has 5 1/4 disk with it. (SuperCalc, WordStar, Qbasic) The unit boots up and runs the software but after about 15 to 20 minutes it starts to overheat.(smoke) My question is - What is the selling price for a unit like this and where would be the best place to sell it? Thanks for your help, Steve Cochrane Director of Information Technology SGS Tool Company PO Box 187 Munroe Falls, OH 44262 (330)686.4194 ########################################### This message has been scanned by F-Secure Anti-Virus for Microsoft Exchange. For more information, connect to http://www.F-Secure.com/ From Robert_Feldman at jdedwards.com Thu Oct 4 08:21:37 2001 From: Robert_Feldman at jdedwards.com (Feldman, Robert) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:27 2005 Subject: IBM ROM BASIC or lack thereof Message-ID: Yes, providing a default ROM monitor program would be useful and simple to implement. The Otrona Attache would go into terminal mode if it couldn't boot the OS. It also provided a set of diagnostic routines that could be run from terminal mode. I agree with you that error messages should be more informative. One problem is that they often just tell you the last of a series of errors. "No ROM Basic" accurately describes the last "error," but it might be more useful to the user to also know that the system got to that point because it couldn't boot from disk. - Bob -----Original Message----- From: ard@p850ug1.demon.co.uk [mailto:ard@p850ug1.demon.co.uk] Sent: Wednesday, October 03, 2001 5:43 PM To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org Subject: Re: IBM ROM BASIC or lack thereof I wish more manufacturers would put a program in the boot ROM that allows reading and writing to memory, running (machine code) programs and preferably also reading/writing I/O ports (if they're not memory mapped). It makes debugging the machine a lot easier if it can't boot a disk (or if you don't have a bootable disk for the machine, at least you can do something with it. Tiny (or otherwise) BASIC allows one to do this. So does Forth. Or just a little machine code monitor. With ROM space being so cheap these days you'd have thought they could find room for something like this... -tony From dittman at dittman.net Thu Oct 4 08:41:37 2001 From: dittman at dittman.net (Eric Dittman) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:27 2005 Subject: need some advice on some VAX boards ... In-Reply-To: from "Absurdly Obtuse" at Oct 04, 2001 02:02:28 AM Message-ID: <200110041341.f94Dfbj26259@narnia.int.dittman.net> > Does that apply to all revisions of the XMI SCSI? > > > > T2029-AB XMI-SCSI adapter > > > > The XMI-SCSI adapter is only supported on Alpha systems. That applies to all revisions. There are no VAX drivers for the card in VMS. -- Eric Dittman dittman@dittman.net Check out the DEC Enthusiasts Club at http://www.dittman.net/ From foxvideo at wincom.net Thu Oct 4 08:41:34 2001 From: foxvideo at wincom.net (Charles E. Fox) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:27 2005 Subject: IBM S/36 5363 Question In-Reply-To: References: <3BBB526D.B55AF3DF@drewtech.com> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20011004093827.00a5bec0@mail.wincom.net> At 06:55 PM 03/10/2001 -0400, you wrote: >Nice find! Want technical docs? > >Peace... Sridhar I have not been able to get any documentation for my 5363, if you have any info to spare I would be interested in obtaining a copy. Regards Charlie Fox Chas E. Fox Video Productions 793 Argyle Rd. Windsor ON N8Y 3J8 foxvideo@wincom.net Check out: Camcorder Kindergarten at http://chasfoxvideo.com From kevan at heydon.org Thu Oct 4 08:50:38 2001 From: kevan at heydon.org (Kevan Heydon) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:27 2005 Subject: MAI Computer (uk) (fwd) Message-ID: Please contact Matt directly if you are interested in this system. Kevan ---------- Forwarded message ---------- From: Mail Subject: MAI Computer Our company has in storage a MAI Basic 4 Information System,which I believe to be complete and functioning. We have no use for this and would be grateful if you could let me know whether this has any value and/or any people or companies you know of who might be interested in making me an offer. Matt Maguire Supply Chain Manager (Rothenberger UK Ltd.) From r_beaudry at hotmail.com Thu Oct 4 09:06:35 2001 From: r_beaudry at hotmail.com (Rich Beaudry) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:27 2005 Subject: Cold/Hot storage of computers -- OK? Message-ID: Hello all, Since I am rapidly exhausting all space in my basement workshop, I need to move some of my computers to the loft above our garage. The problem is, the garage is completely UNinsulated, and has only a metal roof (i.e., thin, and NO resistance to temperature -- hot or cold). My concern is that the cold of winter or the heat of summer might get to them. I live in Massachusetts, so winter is not -40 degrees F, but we are talking below freezing, and possibly below zero for short stretches. In the summer, it must easily hit 100 degrees F in the loft, due to the hot metal roof, and the trapped air (no windows!). I'm not so worried about the circuit boards, but I am worried about floppy drives, hard drives, and CRTs. Does anyone know if such temperatures will kill these things? Obviously I would let the computer acclimate for about 24 hours after I move it back into my house, to avoid sudden temperature swings, or condensation. I'm more worried about the storage affecting them.... Thanks! Rich B. From geneb at deltasoft.com Thu Oct 4 09:17:11 2001 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (Gene Buckle) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:27 2005 Subject: IBM ROM BASIC or lack thereof In-Reply-To: <200110040337.UAA06862@stockholm.ptloma.edu> Message-ID: > > >What I mean to say is: Suzy Six-pack, who ekes out a living typing up MS > > >Word documents, doesn't know shit about the internals of the machine she > > >uses. > > > > But Glen, that's why there are Macs. > > I very much hope you aren't implying that Mac users don't know what's going > on with their machines. > Unfortunately Cameron, that's the case most of the time. In 15 years I think I've met less than 10 Mac users that knew what went on inside their machines. g. From optimus at canit.se Thu Oct 4 09:20:40 2001 From: optimus at canit.se (Iggy Drougge) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:27 2005 Subject: IBM ROM BASIC or lack thereof In-Reply-To: <200110040337.UAA06862@stockholm.ptloma.edu> Message-ID: <547.677T2000T9205269optimus@canit.se> Cameron Kaiser skrev: >> >What I mean to say is: Suzy Six-pack, who ekes out a living typing up MS >> >Word documents, doesn't know shit about the internals of the machine she >> >uses. >> >> But Glen, that's why there are Macs. >I very much hope you aren't implying that Mac users don't know what's going >on with their machines. They don't, and they're not supposed to. OTOH, they often have a much better grasp of what goes on with the OS than your average Windows user. -- En ligne avec Thor 2.6a. Hackers do it with fewer instructions. From optimus at canit.se Thu Oct 4 09:35:49 2001 From: optimus at canit.se (Iggy Drougge) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:27 2005 Subject: HP 9000/847S In-Reply-To: <20011004121109.A26565@mail.er-grp.com> Message-ID: <398.677T2450T9356147optimus@canit.se> jarkko.teppo skrev: >This just in! Free Unlimited User License for 10.20 (11.0, 11i)! Film at 11! You wouldn't know of any version available for 9000/300 and 400 series machines? -- En ligne avec Thor 2.6a. "Computer games don't affect kids, I mean if Pac Man affected us as kids, we'd all be running around in darkened rooms, munching pills and listening to repetitive music." David McMinn From optimus at canit.se Thu Oct 4 10:08:11 2001 From: optimus at canit.se (Iggy Drougge) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:27 2005 Subject: Squealing CRTs In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <1971.677T550T9684395optimus@canit.se> Tony Duell skrev: (I'm a bit late in replying since I've been waiting for the terminal to lose its charge before opening it up) >> Heller to everyone and Tony. ;-) >Yet again I'm a nobody. Well, if I'm not in the set of 'everyone' I must >be, right :-) It's comme-il-faut on this list by now, what is one to do? >> What do you do about a squealing CRT? I've got this nice terminal which i= >I've never heard a CRT squeal. I've heard one hiss, but that was when the >pinch-off tube got cracked and the vacuum was leaking out. That effect >only lasts for a few seconds, and then the owner starts squealling as he >has to look for a replacement CRT. >The squeal from most monitors/TVs comes from the flyback transformer >(horizontal output transformer, line output transformer, call it what you >will). THe core vibrates at the horizontal scan frequency. Is that the neck at the back of the tube? I see a key-like screw protruding at a 90? angle from the neck, which seems to be coupled to a metal band wrapped across the neck. >The cure is to make sure the core can't vibrate. If there are clamps on >the core, tighten them (not hard enough to crack the core of course. If >not, then often a squirt of hot-melt glue around the core and windings >will silence it, but don't blame me if it ruins the transformer. There is a big squirt of glue around the mountain of wire (what you call a coil, I think) where the neck begins. >> s >> working, but it emits a high-pitched whine which is not only unpleasant a= >> nd >> annoying, but quite scary, too. It feels as thoughit's going to blow in y= >> our >> face any minute. >Don't worry about that. THis effect has not other consequences (other >than annoying sound) That's a relief. -- En ligne avec Thor 2.6a. Georgie beundrade stor?gt sin pappa som med v?ldsamma slag gick l?s p? det stora tr?det. Han badade i svett, och den muskul?sa kroppen bl?nkte i solskenet. Hon ?lskade honom. Lady Georgie, TMS 1983 From Antonio.Carlini at riverstonenet.com Thu Oct 4 09:30:17 2001 From: Antonio.Carlini at riverstonenet.com (Carlini, Antonio) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:27 2005 Subject: need some advice on some VAX boards ... Message-ID: <3820E2042B6ED5118DC200D0B78EDC47066172@exc-reo1> > > Does that apply to all revisions of the XMI SCSI? > > > > > > T2029-AB XMI-SCSI adapter > > > > > > The XMI-SCSI adapter is only supported on Alpha systems. > > That applies to all revisions. There are no VAX drivers for the > card in VMS. AFAIK, there is no VAX-compatible *firmware*, so you cannot even hope to write your own drivers ... Antonio From menadeau at mediaone.net Thu Oct 4 09:59:21 2001 From: menadeau at mediaone.net (Michael Nadeau) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:27 2005 Subject: Cold/Hot storage of computers -- OK? References: Message-ID: <045601c14ce5$341b2320$0c01a8c0@michaelnadeau> Extreme cold will damage LCDs--I live in NH, and lost an IXO handheld terminal that way. At my previous home, my storage was similar to what you describe. Also, the heat of an attic will warp some plastics, and I suspect that it accelerates the yellowing process. I didn't have a problem with circuit boards, however. Hot and cold extremes will not be kind to software or to some types of paper. Temperatures aren't the only thing you have to worry about with the type of storage you describe. Vermin (insects, spiders, mice, bats) will also be a problem. I kept my stuff covered with old blankets and tarps to cut down on damage from dust and droppings. The coverings will also help with certain weather conditions common to New England. In springtime when the humidity is high and the temperature rises, moisture will form on metal and plastic surfaces. --Mike Michael Nadeau Editorial Services 603-893-2379 ----- Original Message ----- From: "Rich Beaudry" To: Sent: Thursday, October 04, 2001 10:06 AM Subject: Cold/Hot storage of computers -- OK? > Hello all, > > Since I am rapidly exhausting all space in my basement workshop, I need to > move some of my computers to the loft above our garage. The problem is, the > garage is completely UNinsulated, and has only a metal roof (i.e., thin, and > NO resistance to temperature -- hot or cold). > > My concern is that the cold of winter or the heat of summer might get to > them. I live in Massachusetts, so winter is not -40 degrees F, but we are > talking below freezing, and possibly below zero for short stretches. In the > summer, it must easily hit 100 degrees F in the loft, due to the hot metal > roof, and the trapped air (no windows!). > > I'm not so worried about the circuit boards, but I am worried about floppy > drives, hard drives, and CRTs. Does anyone know if such temperatures will > kill these things? Obviously I would let the computer acclimate for about > 24 hours after I move it back into my house, to avoid sudden temperature > swings, or condensation. I'm more worried about the storage affecting > them.... > > Thanks! > > Rich B. > > From SUPRDAVE at aol.com Thu Oct 4 10:48:33 2001 From: SUPRDAVE at aol.com (SUPRDAVE@aol.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:27 2005 Subject: Cold/Hot storage of computers -- OK? Message-ID: <14.1b8bc211.28edded1@aol.com> Most halfway modern things have environmental criteria for when it's running and when it's off. For humidity, I've seen the storage range be from 5%-95% noncondensing and temp range from 0F-110F when not running. I'm running out of space as well finally, but will not store things in the roof. In a message dated 10/4/2001 10:18:11 AM Central Daylight Time, menadeau@mediaone.net writes: << Extreme cold will damage LCDs--I live in NH, and lost an IXO handheld terminal that way. At my previous home, my storage was similar to what you describe. Also, the heat of an attic will warp some plastics, and I suspect that it accelerates the yellowing process. I didn't have a problem with circuit boards, however. Hot and cold extremes will not be kind to software or to some types of paper. Temperatures aren't the only thing you have to worry about with the type of storage you describe. Vermin (insects, spiders, mice, bats) will also be a problem. I kept my stuff covered with old blankets and tarps to cut down on damage from dust and droppings. The coverings will also help with certain weather conditions common to New England. In springtime when the humidity is high and the temperature rises, moisture will form on metal and plastic surfaces. --Mike Michael Nadeau Editorial Services 603-893-2379 ----- Original Message ----- From: "Rich Beaudry" To: Sent: Thursday, October 04, 2001 10:06 AM Subject: Cold/Hot storage of computers -- OK? > Hello all, > > Since I am rapidly exhausting all space in my basement workshop, I need to > move some of my computers to the loft above our garage. The problem is, the > garage is completely UNinsulated, and has only a metal roof (i.e., thin, and > NO resistance to temperature -- hot or cold). > > My concern is that the cold of winter or the heat of summer might get to > them. I live in Massachusetts, so winter is not -40 degrees F, but we are > talking below freezing, and possibly below zero for short stretches. In the > summer, it must easily hit 100 degrees F in the loft, due to the hot metal > roof, and the trapped air (no windows!). > > I'm not so worried about the circuit boards, but I am worried about floppy > drives, hard drives, and CRTs. Does anyone know if such temperatures will > kill these things? Obviously I would let the computer acclimate for about > 24 hours after I move it back into my house, to avoid sudden temperature > swings, or condensation. I'm more worried about the storage affecting > them.... > > Thanks! > > Rich B. >> From mikeford at socal.rr.com Thu Oct 4 11:26:40 2001 From: mikeford at socal.rr.com (Mike Ford) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:27 2005 Subject: Scrapping Tektronix 4695 (was Re: Scrapping LA100 & Diablo printers) In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.0.20011004080005.022c4ed0@pc> References: <20011004032646.58233.qmail@web20104.mail.yahoo.com> <01C14C38.A7F4C380@mse-d03> Message-ID: >At 08:26 PM 10/3/01 -0700, Ethan Dicks wrote: >>Later, it was a Syquest 44Mb >>drive. It was nice, but the carts cost so much that I never bought any >>more; I just used it as an expensive 44Mb semi-fixed SCSI drive. :-( > >Hey, if you need a few Syquest drives or carts ... :-) When I bought my 44 MB first Syquest I budgeted for 5 cartridges, and used it quite a bit, initially for backups, and later on as just a handy portable scsi boot device. Once I had a bootable CD that kind of fell off, but recently I bought a EZ230 and a 270 MB drive, and those I expect to put some usefull things on (small projects like a NETBsd firewall to copy to internal drives). Sometimes a network connection, even old slow LocalTalk is the most convient thing to use. SCSI has fussy issues it isn't worth sorting out. From dittman at dittman.net Thu Oct 4 11:46:08 2001 From: dittman at dittman.net (Eric Dittman) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:27 2005 Subject: need some advice on some VAX boards ... In-Reply-To: from "Carlini, Antonio" at Oct 04, 2001 07:30:17 AM Message-ID: <200110041646.f94Gk8u26726@narnia.int.dittman.net> > > > Does that apply to all revisions of the XMI SCSI? > > > > > > > > T2029-AB XMI-SCSI adapter > > > > > > > > The XMI-SCSI adapter is only supported on Alpha systems. > > > > That applies to all revisions. There are no VAX drivers for the > > card in VMS. > > > AFAIK, there is no VAX-compatible *firmware*, > so you cannot even hope to write your own > drivers ... Yes, I forgot to mention the lack of firmware as well. I suppose you *COULD* write a driver that lets you use the board for non-booting devices if you had enough information available. -- Eric Dittman dittman@dittman.net Check out the DEC Enthusiasts Club at http://www.dittman.net/ From andyh at netcomuk.co.uk Thu Oct 4 11:59:34 2001 From: andyh at netcomuk.co.uk (Andy Holt) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:27 2005 Subject: classiccmp-digest V1 #737 In-Reply-To: <200110041255.HAA13668@opal.tseinc.com> Message-ID: <000201c14cf5$f1c4f580$4d4d2c0a@atx> Tony stated: > FWIW, I have never treated _anything_ as a black box where I don't have > to care about what goes on inside. I find it's easier to do good work if > you do understand the internals of the tools and equipment that you are > using. And therefore I have little time for people who aren't prepared to > learn about the insides of their computer/car/whatever... >>>> start of OT rant Although I like to be able to know about the "inside" of things, I am not convinced that it is possible to have anything more than a simplistic view (or even that much) for some things. GSM phones are, at best, borderline. DAB ("Digital Radio") seems to have gone to the level where only a very small proportion of the population (possibly less than a few thousand people worldwide) can really and accurately claim to fully understand how it works*. It worries me somewhat that such a technology is being deployed (as also does the potential for control by government and big business that is lacking in AM and FM radio), but possibly such complexity is inevitable. * sure, I can waffle on about using a spread spectrum technique in Band III to transmit a multiplexed bit stream than demultiplexes to several compressed sequences of digital samples - I might even, with a little research, be more convincing about how this bit stream is handled - but as for really understanding the transmission mechanism, "pass"! <<<< end of OT rant Andy From mcguire at neurotica.com Thu Oct 4 12:02:28 2001 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:28 2005 Subject: need some advice on some VAX boards ... In-Reply-To: Re: need some advice on some VAX boards ... (Ethan Dicks) References: <3BBBE5CB.8050809@aurora.regenstrief.org> <20011004055305.93573.qmail@web20107.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <15292.38436.776681.17684@phaduka.neurotica.com> On October 3, Ethan Dicks wrote: > RD50 - ST506 > RD51 - ST412 > RD52 - Quantum 540? Yes, Q540. > RD53 - Micropolis 1335 > RD54 - Maxtor XT2190 > RD31 - ST225 > RD32 - ST241-1 Just a nit...the RD32 is an ST251...not a -1 model. The ST251 had an average access time of 40ms (if memory serves) and the ST251-1 was 28.5ms. An easy performance upgrade for RD32-based systems is to replace the DEC-badged Seagate ST251 with an ST251-1...the controller won't know the difference...but the user will! :-) -Dave -- Dave McGuire Laurel, MD From sieler at allegro.com Thu Oct 4 11:58:47 2001 From: sieler at allegro.com (Stan Sieler) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:28 2005 Subject: HP 9000/847S In-Reply-To: <20011004121109.A26565@mail.er-grp.com> References: Message-ID: <3BBC32D7.30219.3331ED7E@localhost> Re: > This just in! Free Unlimited User License for 10.20 (11.0, 11i)! Film at 11! > > http://www.software.hp.com/cgi-bin/swdepot_parser.cgi/cgi/displayProducts.p=l?group_type=3Dsearch&group_name=3Dunlimited+user+license If that URL doesn't work, try: http://www.software.hp.com/cgi-bin/swdepot_parser.cgi/cgi/displayProducts.pl?group_type=search&group_name=unlimited+and+user+and+license Note: although the cost is shown as $0.00, there's no "buy", just a "try" button. The "try" button takes you to a page where you can download the "software" that gives you unlimited users, but you have to check a box saying you read various agreements...one of which states that this is a 30 day demo. Oh yes, the software might not be 10 years old, but some of the hardware it runs on is :) Stan Sieler sieler@allegro.com www.allegro.com/sieler/wanted/index.html www.allegro.com/sieler From foo at siconic.com Thu Oct 4 12:19:35 2001 From: foo at siconic.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:28 2005 Subject: Osborne OCC1 In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Thu, 4 Oct 2001, Steve Cochrane wrote: > I have come across an Osborne model OCC1 Serial # 134033. This unit has the > 300 baud modem. It also has 5 1/4 disk with it. (SuperCalc, WordStar, > Qbasic) The unit boots up and runs the software but after about 15 to 20 > minutes it starts to overheat.(smoke) > My question is - What is the selling price for a unit like this and where > would be the best place to sell it? The usual selling price for anything that starts to smoke after being turned on is $free. Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org From foo at siconic.com Thu Oct 4 12:20:26 2001 From: foo at siconic.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:28 2005 Subject: IBM ROM BASIC or lack thereof In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Thu, 4 Oct 2001, Feldman, Robert wrote: > Yes, providing a default ROM monitor program would be useful and > simple to implement. > > The Otrona Attache would go into terminal mode if it couldn't > boot the OS. It also provided a set of diagnostic routines > that could be run from terminal mode. > > I agree with you that error messages should be more informative. > One problem is that they often just tell you the last of a series of > errors. "No ROM Basic" accurately describes the last "error," but it > might be more useful to the user to also know that the system got to > that point because it couldn't boot from disk. Hasn't anyone ever heard of "consultants"? :) Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org From mythtech at Mac.com Thu Oct 4 12:40:33 2001 From: mythtech at Mac.com (Chris) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:28 2005 Subject: Scrapping Tektronix 4695 (was Re: Scrapping LA100 & Diablo printers) Message-ID: >Sometimes a network connection, even old slow LocalTalk is the most >convient thing to use. Up until the power supply blew on my Powerbook... I always carried this little pair of Farallon adaptors for localtalk. They were single RJ-11 connectors that plugged into the printer port (basically a standard teletalk connector, but the 2nd port was permanently terminated). They took almost no space (about an inch square for the pair), and almost no weight (maybe an ounce for the pair), and used my already carried modem's phone cord to connect between. I think hardly a meeting went by that I didn't use them to transfer files to someone else's computer. Localtalk was always pleanty fast for moving a few word files or a powerpoint presentation... and used WAY less battery power than the IR port (and was easier to use, as I had a Powerbook 1400 which used apple's crappy slow IR protocol, most other people had nicer, newer ones that used IRda, and although could "dumb down" to apple's, it just sucked). -chris From vance at ikickass.org Thu Oct 4 12:56:43 2001 From: vance at ikickass.org (Absurdly Obtuse) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:28 2005 Subject: need some advice on some VAX boards ... In-Reply-To: <200110041341.f94Dfbj26259@narnia.int.dittman.net> Message-ID: On Thu, 4 Oct 2001, Eric Dittman wrote: > > Does that apply to all revisions of the XMI SCSI? > > > > T2029-AB XMI-SCSI adapter > That applies to all revisions. There are no VAX drivers for the > card in VMS. But, I didn't want it for VMS. How about on a DECsystem 5840 (an XMI DECstation, basically) under ULTRIX. Or the possibility of NetBSD drivers. Peace... Sridhar From vance at ikickass.org Thu Oct 4 12:59:28 2001 From: vance at ikickass.org (Absurdly Obtuse) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:28 2005 Subject: need some advice on some VAX boards ... In-Reply-To: <3820E2042B6ED5118DC200D0B78EDC47066172@exc-reo1> Message-ID: On Thu, 4 Oct 2001, Carlini, Antonio wrote: > > > Does that apply to all revisions of the XMI SCSI? > > > > > > > > T2029-AB XMI-SCSI adapter > > > > > > > > The XMI-SCSI adapter is only supported on Alpha systems. > > > > That applies to all revisions. There are no VAX drivers for the > > card in VMS. > > > AFAIK, there is no VAX-compatible *firmware*, > so you cannot even hope to write your own > drivers ... Ah. So I bet there are no MIPS-compatible firmware either. Peace... Sridhar From Antonio.Carlini at riverstonenet.com Thu Oct 4 13:27:50 2001 From: Antonio.Carlini at riverstonenet.com (Carlini, Antonio) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:28 2005 Subject: need some advice on some VAX boards ... Message-ID: <3820E2042B6ED5118DC200D0B78EDC47066174@exc-reo1> > Eric Dittman wrote: > >I suppose you *COULD* write a driver that lets you use the board >for non-booting devices if you had enough information available. That depends on exactly why the firmware will not play with VAX. My *guess* (based on exactly no information ...) is that it has intimate knowledge of some internal OpenVMS Alpha data structure (page tables or such like). For example, the DMB32 did exactly this - it could run in at least 4 different modes: given physical address (PA), given PA of a VAX page table, given SVA of buffer and given SVA of process page table. I assume the firmware engineers had time to kill :-) So it is quite possible that you would need to re-write the firmware to be able to do *anything* with the board at all. Antonio From cmcmanis at mcmanis.com Thu Oct 4 14:46:13 2001 From: cmcmanis at mcmanis.com (Chuck McManis) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:28 2005 Subject: OT Understanding Rant In-Reply-To: <000201c14cf5$f1c4f580$4d4d2c0a@atx> References: <200110041255.HAA13668@opal.tseinc.com> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20011004123718.00a36470@mcmanis.com> At 09:59 AM 10/4/01, Andy wrote: > >>>> start of OT rant >Although I like to be able to know about the "inside" of things, I am not >convinced that it is possible to have anything more than a simplistic view >(or even that much) for some things. GSM phones are, at best, borderline. >DAB ("Digital Radio") seems to have gone to the level where only a very >small proportion of the population (possibly less than a few thousand people >worldwide) can really and accurately claim to fully understand how it >works*. Andy, anyone with a brain, the ability to read, and sufficient time should be able to "fully understand how it works." This may take more time than it is worth but it should be do-able. If anyone asks you to buy, or offers to give you, technology for which it is impossible to get thorough descriptions of their operation. Then the prudent thing is to decline the technology. However, while good in theory, in practice people have to pick and choose the technology providers they trust. If the new US Anti-terrorist bill, otherwise known as the American KGB implementation act, passes I expect that all rental cars will be equipped with "satellite" capable radios that will transmit into a continuously recording mechanism all sounds that occur in the car.* However, for us, a good definition of "Classic" computers, is one for which the documentation can be obtained. So as newer, and more proprietary systems reach the '10 year rule' it suggests we need to revisit the definitions ;-) I'm in favor or starting "20thcenturycmp" as a nice easy to define, won't change list. --Chuck * but the recordings will only be used in court if they can get a warrant to use them as evidence, otherwise they will be used to get you to produce evidence that can be used in court. From dittman at dittman.net Thu Oct 4 15:03:18 2001 From: dittman at dittman.net (Eric Dittman) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:28 2005 Subject: need some advice on some VAX boards ... In-Reply-To: from "Carlini, Antonio" at Oct 04, 2001 11:27:50 AM Message-ID: <200110042003.f94K3I027361@narnia.int.dittman.net> > >I suppose you *COULD* write a driver that lets you use the board > >for non-booting devices if you had enough information available. > > That depends on exactly why the firmware > will not play with VAX. My *guess* (based > on exactly no information ...) is that it has > intimate knowledge of some internal > OpenVMS Alpha data structure (page > tables or such like). That's what I meant by enough information. You'd need the source for OpenVMS Alpha, OpenVMS VAX, and the driver as the bare minimum along with hardware specs. > So it is quite possible that you would need > to re-write the firmware to be able to do > *anything* with the board at all. Or you could possibly do the setup in the driver initialization. It would be much simpler to use a CIXCD to an HSJxx controller. When you factor in the development costs the CI solution would be much less expensive as well. We use CIXCD boards in our VAX 7730 systems (actually two for redundancy to dual Star Couplers). -- Eric Dittman dittman@dittman.net Check out the DEC Enthusiasts Club at http://www.dittman.net/ From pete at dunnington.u-net.com Thu Oct 4 12:36:24 2001 From: pete at dunnington.u-net.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:28 2005 Subject: Cold/Hot storage of computers -- OK? In-Reply-To: SUPRDAVE@aol.com "Re: Cold/Hot storage of computers -- OK?" (Oct 4, 11:48) References: <14.1b8bc211.28edded1@aol.com> Message-ID: <10110041836.ZM4146@mindy.dunnington.u-net.com> On Oct 4, 11:48, SUPRDAVE@aol.com wrote: > Most halfway modern things have environmental criteria for when it's running > and when it's off. For humidity, I've seen the storage range be from 5%-95% > noncondensing and temp range from 0F-110F when not running. I'm running out > of space as well finally, but will not store things in the roof. The key word in there is "noncondensing", which isn't likely to be the case part of the time, unless you do something about it. Corrosion could be a real problem. The easiest way to deal with it is to ensure that the loft is ventilated, but a better way would be to use a dehumidifier. They're not too expensive to run (at least, not compared to heating or air conditioning) and you could run a short drain hose out of the dehumidifier and out of the loft to dispose of the water. > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Rich Beaudry" > > Since I am rapidly exhausting all space in my basement workshop, I need to > > move some of my computers to the loft above our garage. The problem is, > the > > garage is completely UNinsulated, and has only a metal roof (i.e., thin, > and > > NO resistance to temperature -- hot or cold). -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager University of York From louiss at gate.net Thu Oct 4 15:24:06 2001 From: louiss at gate.net (Louis Schulman) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:28 2005 Subject: Osborne OCC1 In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <200110042023.QAA30126@smtp6.mindspring.com> On Thu, 4 Oct 2001 09:20:17 -0400, Steve Cochrane wrote: #I have come across an Osborne model OCC1 Serial # 134033. This unit has the #300 baud modem. It also has 5 1/4 disk with it. (SuperCalc, WordStar, #Qbasic) The unit boots up and runs the software but after about 15 to 20 #minutes it starts to overheat.(smoke) #My question is - What is the selling price for a unit like this and where #would be the best place to sell it? Well, I have a related question. I have an '86 Dodge that runs fine for 10 or 15 minutes, but then the passenger compartment fills with smoke and flames shoot out of the grill. What is the blue book on an "86 Dodge with flames and smoke? Louis From vance at ikickass.org Thu Oct 4 16:23:51 2001 From: vance at ikickass.org (Absurdly Obtuse) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:28 2005 Subject: need some advice on some VAX boards ... In-Reply-To: <200110042003.f94K3I027361@narnia.int.dittman.net> Message-ID: On Thu, 4 Oct 2001, Eric Dittman wrote: > It would be much simpler to use a CIXCD to an HSJxx controller. > When you factor in the development costs the CI solution would > be much less expensive as well. Yeah. I have an HSC95 with SCSI boards. It might end up half SCSI and half SDI when I am done with it. I was planning on using it for cluster disk. I am probably going to use SDI disk in my DECsystem 5840. > We use CIXCD boards in our VAX 7730 systems (actually two for > redundancy to dual Star Couplers). Cool. Do you use these 7730s at work or at home? Peace... Sridhar From ghldbrd at ccp.com Thu Oct 4 16:24:37 2001 From: ghldbrd at ccp.com (Gary Hildebrand) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:28 2005 Subject: Osborne OCC1 References: <200110042023.QAA30126@smtp6.mindspring.com> Message-ID: <3BBCD395.51BD4DE1@ccp.com> Louis Schulman wrote: > > On Thu, 4 Oct 2001 09:20:17 -0400, Steve Cochrane wrote: > > #I have come across an Osborne model OCC1 Serial # 134033. This unit has the > #300 baud modem. It also has 5 1/4 disk with it. (SuperCalc, WordStar, > #Qbasic) The unit boots up and runs the software but after about 15 to 20 > #minutes it starts to overheat.(smoke) > #My question is - What is the selling price for a unit like this and where > #would be the best place to sell it? > > Well, I have a related question. I have an '86 Dodge that runs fine for 10 or 15 minutes, but then the > passenger compartment fills with smoke and flames shoot out of the grill. > > What is the blue book on an "86 Dodge with flames and smoke? > > Louis I bought my ozzie at a hamfest about 10 years ago for $50, which was a bit high. I had to scrounge up the original system disks and book along the way. I think anything less than a Jackson ($20) would be about right. they used to be fairly common, unless their owners used them for landfill fodder Gary Hildebrand From ghldbrd at ccp.com Thu Oct 4 16:46:11 2001 From: ghldbrd at ccp.com (Gary Hildebrand) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:28 2005 Subject: back in the saddle again Message-ID: <3BBCD8A3.587D1E96@ccp.com> finally back online with a mailer here. Still getting used to Linux PC over my Amiga 3000. Just for some laughs out there, I want to pass this along . . . . I downloaded about 20k, yes 20,000 emails. Seems my former (and present) ISP maintaianed my email addy and there was an accumulation of emails from last February. took about 7 hrs to dowload, and another 6 to chip through them. Might this be a Guiness Book world's record?? gary Hildebrand From rigdonj at intellistar.net Thu Oct 4 17:08:54 2001 From: rigdonj at intellistar.net (Joe) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:28 2005 Subject: Osborne OCC1 In-Reply-To: <3BBCD395.51BD4DE1@ccp.com> References: <200110042023.QAA30126@smtp6.mindspring.com> Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20011004180854.007b8100@mailhost.intellistar.net> FWIW I bought two Ozzies, an OCC-1 and an Osborne 1, for $40 last Febuary. I also got a stack of docs and a binder full of disks with them. Both Ozzies work. Let's see, that's either 5 or 6 of them that I now have! The MODEM is sort of rare and it and the disks are worth a few bucks but the smoking Oz is $5 item IMO. Joe At 04:24 PM 10/4/01 -0500, you wrote: >Louis Schulman wrote: >> >> On Thu, 4 Oct 2001 09:20:17 -0400, Steve Cochrane wrote: >> >> #I have come across an Osborne model OCC1 Serial # 134033. This unit has the >> #300 baud modem. It also has 5 1/4 disk with it. (SuperCalc, WordStar, >> #Qbasic) The unit boots up and runs the software but after about 15 to 20 >> #minutes it starts to overheat.(smoke) >> #My question is - What is the selling price for a unit like this and where >> #would be the best place to sell it? >> >> Well, I have a related question. I have an '86 Dodge that runs fine for 10 or 15 minutes, but then the >> passenger compartment fills with smoke and flames shoot out of the grill. >> >> What is the blue book on an "86 Dodge with flames and smoke? >> >> Louis > >I bought my ozzie at a hamfest about 10 years ago for $50, which was a >bit high. I had to scrounge up the original system disks and book along >the way. > >I think anything less than a Jackson ($20) would be about right. they >used to be fairly common, unless their owners used them for landfill >fodder > >Gary Hildebrand > From jfoust at threedee.com Thu Oct 4 17:22:32 2001 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:28 2005 Subject: Cold/Hot storage of computers -- OK? In-Reply-To: <10110041836.ZM4146@mindy.dunnington.u-net.com> References: <14.1b8bc211.28edded1@aol.com> Message-ID: <4.3.2.7.0.20011004172008.022e8900@pc> At 05:36 PM 10/4/01 +0000, Pete Turnbull wrote: >The easiest way to deal with it is to ensure that the loft >is ventilated, but a better way would be to use a dehumidifier. They're >not too expensive to run (at least, not compared to heating or air >conditioning) They're like little refrigerators, and most of them aren't very smart about the set-point you've selected in consideration of the actual temperature and humidity, so they'll happily run when they can't do their job. They work by condensation on the cooled coils. - John From gwynp at artware.qc.ca Thu Oct 4 17:48:54 2001 From: gwynp at artware.qc.ca (gwynp@artware.qc.ca) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:28 2005 Subject: IBM ROM BASIC or lack thereof In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On 03-Oct-2001 Tony Duell wrote: > [How I diagnosed a fault in an IBM floppy controller by sending it > commands from ROM BASIC and seeing what the signals did] > >> You, sir, are, and I mean this in the best possible way, INSANE. I am >> in >> awe > > The first time I was called 'insane' (or 'mad') was about 20 years ago. > I can't remember what I was doing, but it would have been > computer-hardware related.... I've got used to it by now (and I am > still doing mad things with computers :-)). Like I said, I'm in awe. While technically, I have sufficient hardware training to pull a stunt like that off, I've worked on software most of my professional life. Call me jelous, I supose. -PHilip From gwynp at artware.qc.ca Thu Oct 4 17:50:59 2001 From: gwynp at artware.qc.ca (gwynp@artware.qc.ca) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:28 2005 Subject: IBM ROM BASIC or lack thereof In-Reply-To: <3BBB7B82.8040308@aconit.org> Message-ID: On 03-Oct-2001 Hans B Pufal wrote: > As a fun project at the moment I am reimplementing tiny BASIC on the pc > (yes I'm sure I could find one on the web but...) Looks like it will > need about 2kb (it's 1800 bytes right now but missing a couple of > features) > > I have little hope but I will try and see if I can get it incorporated > into the BIOS my employer develops. One word : forth. -Philip From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Oct 4 17:22:24 2001 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:28 2005 Subject: Recently excavated - Dicomed 800868-00 "Color Controller Assembly" - any info? In-Reply-To: <20011004033839.4462.qmail@web20106.mail.yahoo.com> from "Ethan Dicks" at Oct 3, 1 08:38:39 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1381 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20011004/052894a7/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Oct 4 17:09:09 2001 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:28 2005 Subject: IBM ROM BASIC or lack thereof In-Reply-To: <610.676T1800T7515321optimus@canit.se> from "Iggy Drougge" at Oct 3, 1 12:31:36 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 469 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20011004/3d8e579d/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Oct 4 17:13:02 2001 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:28 2005 Subject: IBM ROM BASIC or lack thereof In-Reply-To: <528.676T850T7624043optimus@canit.se> from "Iggy Drougge" at Oct 3, 1 12:42:17 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 807 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20011004/e1cefc56/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Oct 4 17:17:28 2001 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:28 2005 Subject: Altair 8800a on EBAY In-Reply-To: <20011004031629.14587.qmail@web20105.mail.yahoo.com> from "Ethan Dicks" at Oct 3, 1 08:16:29 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1210 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20011004/c88c7cfb/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Oct 4 17:41:06 2001 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:28 2005 Subject: IBM ROM BASIC or lack thereof In-Reply-To: from "Gene Buckle" at Oct 4, 1 07:17:11 am Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 290 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20011004/5d32c01e/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Oct 4 17:45:14 2001 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:28 2005 Subject: Squealing CRTs In-Reply-To: <1971.677T550T9684395optimus@canit.se> from "Iggy Drougge" at Oct 4, 1 04:08:11 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 786 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20011004/03003cd5/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Oct 4 17:24:38 2001 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:28 2005 Subject: IBM ROM BASIC or lack thereof In-Reply-To: <20011004044614.CDUV24602.imf08bis.bellsouth.net@thegoodw> from "Glen Goodwin" at Oct 3, 1 11:55:10 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 693 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20011004/c23fe3f7/attachment.ksh From oliv555 at arrl.net Thu Oct 4 19:09:36 2001 From: oliv555 at arrl.net (no) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:28 2005 Subject: houston (mostly DEC) garage sale/giveaway Message-ID: <3BBCFA40.C1AF18EB@arrl.net> My acquisition rate has exceeded my storage capacity so am making the following available to list members pre-eBay. Bigger items to Houston area only, (no shipping at this time). All items in working condition unless otherwise noted. IBM RS/6000 7012-370;aix3.x, kb, mouse, no key, FREE no pwd,1gb hd, fdd, xtra boards, vid cable DEC PDP 11/73; ba23, m8190ab, m8637dh, rx33, rqdx3 $100 rlv21,dhq11, rd52(doa), rt11 v5.4d kit RA81 logic bd; cond ? FREE ACT-10340 qniverter $10 mvII cpu+mem; m7606af, m7608bp $5 mvII cpu+2mem; m7606et, m7609ah, m7609ap $10 dssi m7769;s-handle $10 MAC 6100/66; w/DOS board, kbrd, mouse FREE MAC 6100/66, not working FREE MAC IIci FREE DEC ba23 cabinet, unpopulated FREE DEC ba213 cab, unpopulated FREE DEC sz-12 storage expansion; rz55 FREE DEC Ext Strage box, rz56 FREE Vaxstation 4000/model 60;no hd $25 Vaxstation 3100/m76 SPX; vms6.x $25 Vaxstation 3100/m76 SPX $20 Microvax 3100/20e; vms $20 Infoserver 100; rz23(2)rrd.. $10 VT420 / LK401 $10 -nick o 281-553-6507 From cmcmanis at mcmanis.com Thu Oct 4 19:33:42 2001 From: cmcmanis at mcmanis.com (Chuck McManis) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:28 2005 Subject: houston (mostly DEC) garage sale/giveaway In-Reply-To: <3BBCFA40.C1AF18EB@arrl.net> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20011004173313.00a7cba0@mcmanis.com> I'll take the DSSI board --Chuck At 05:09 PM 10/4/01, you wrote: >My acquisition rate has exceeded my storage capacity so am making the >following available to list members pre-eBay. Bigger items to Houston > area only, (no shipping at this time). > > All items in working condition unless otherwise noted. > >IBM RS/6000 7012-370;aix3.x, kb, mouse, no key, FREE > no pwd,1gb hd, fdd, xtra boards, vid cable > >DEC PDP 11/73; ba23, m8190ab, m8637dh, rx33, rqdx3 $100 > rlv21,dhq11, rd52(doa), rt11 v5.4d kit > >RA81 logic bd; cond ? FREE >ACT-10340 qniverter $10 >mvII cpu+mem; m7606af, m7608bp $5 >mvII cpu+2mem; m7606et, m7609ah, m7609ap $10 >dssi m7769;s-handle $10 > >MAC 6100/66; w/DOS board, kbrd, mouse FREE >MAC 6100/66, not working FREE >MAC IIci FREE > >DEC ba23 cabinet, unpopulated FREE >DEC ba213 cab, unpopulated FREE >DEC sz-12 storage expansion; rz55 FREE >DEC Ext Strage box, rz56 FREE > >Vaxstation 4000/model 60;no hd $25 >Vaxstation 3100/m76 SPX; vms6.x $25 >Vaxstation 3100/m76 SPX $20 >Microvax 3100/20e; vms $20 >Infoserver 100; rz23(2)rrd.. $10 >VT420 / LK401 $10 > >-nick o >281-553-6507 From spectre at stockholm.ptloma.edu Thu Oct 4 19:50:13 2001 From: spectre at stockholm.ptloma.edu (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:28 2005 Subject: IBM ROM BASIC or lack thereof In-Reply-To: <547.677T2000T9205269optimus@canit.se> from Iggy Drougge at "Oct 4, 1 03:20:40 pm" Message-ID: <200110050050.RAA09628@stockholm.ptloma.edu> > > > But Glen, that's why there are Macs. > >I very much hope you aren't implying that Mac users don't know what's going > >on with their machines. > They don't, and they're not supposed to. I find this remark ill-informed at best. I definitely know what's going on inside my 7300, my Mac Plus, my Apple Network Server and my farm of IIcis, and there are also plenty of DIY-Mac upgraders on the LowEndMac lists. Macs aren't 'mysterious beige boxes' even if they do have fewer upgrade options in some respects. -- ----------------------------- personal page: http://www.armory.com/~spectre/ -- Cameron Kaiser, Point Loma Nazarene University * ckaiser@stockholm.ptloma.edu -- When in doubt, take a pawn. -- Mission: Impossible ("Crack-Up") ------------ From jhellige at earthlink.net Thu Oct 4 19:55:59 2001 From: jhellige at earthlink.net (Jeff Hellige) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:28 2005 Subject: Osborne OCC1 In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.32.20011004180854.007b8100@mailhost.intellistar.net> References: <200110042023.QAA30126@smtp6.mindspring.com> <3.0.6.32.20011004180854.007b8100@mailhost.intellistar.net> Message-ID: >FWIW I bought two Ozzies, an OCC-1 and an Osborne 1, for $40 last Febuary. >I also got a stack of docs and a binder full of disks with them. Both >Ozzies work. Let's see, that's either 5 or 6 of them that I now have! > > The MODEM is sort of rare and it and the disks are worth a few bucks but >the smoking Oz is $5 item IMO. The modem's kinda cool though. I've actually used mine to call a BBS in the past, using Amcall from MicroCall. Jeff -- Home of the TRS-80 Model 2000 FAQ File http://www.cchaven.com http://www.geocities.com/siliconvalley/lakes/6757 From jhellige at earthlink.net Thu Oct 4 20:01:04 2001 From: jhellige at earthlink.net (Jeff Hellige) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:28 2005 Subject: IBM ROM BASIC or lack thereof In-Reply-To: <200110040337.UAA06862@stockholm.ptloma.edu> References: <200110040337.UAA06862@stockholm.ptloma.edu> Message-ID: > > >What I mean to say is: Suzy Six-pack, who ekes out a living typing up MS >> >Word documents, doesn't know shit about the internals of the machine she >> >uses. >> >> But Glen, that's why there are Macs. > >I very much hope you aren't implying that Mac users don't know what's going >on with their machines. I would imagine that most of the Mac users on this list probably know a bit more about the inner machine than the average user though, but that would also go for the PC users on this list as well. My experience is that the average user doesn't really care what makes the machine work...they just want to be able to turn it on and play Solitare or whatever..... Jeff -- Home of the TRS-80 Model 2000 FAQ File http://www.cchaven.com http://www.geocities.com/siliconvalley/lakes/6757 From vze2wsvr at verizon.net Thu Oct 4 20:44:32 2001 From: vze2wsvr at verizon.net (Eric Chomko) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:28 2005 Subject: Osborne OCC1 References: <200110042023.QAA30126@smtp6.mindspring.com> <3.0.6.32.20011004180854.007b8100@mailhost.intellistar.net> Message-ID: <3BBD107F.C89BA84B@mail.verizon.net> Hey Jeff, As I recall the next systems we were to work on was these same O-1s. Man, I can't wait. I have two and would like to get both working. Eric P.S. One boots, but only B drive. And that was after some serious work! Jeff Hellige wrote: > >FWIW I bought two Ozzies, an OCC-1 and an Osborne 1, for $40 last Febuary. > >I also got a stack of docs and a binder full of disks with them. Both > >Ozzies work. Let's see, that's either 5 or 6 of them that I now have! > > > > The MODEM is sort of rare and it and the disks are worth a few bucks but > >the smoking Oz is $5 item IMO. > > The modem's kinda cool though. I've actually used mine to > call a BBS in the past, using Amcall from MicroCall. > > Jeff > -- > Home of the TRS-80 Model 2000 FAQ File > http://www.cchaven.com > http://www.geocities.com/siliconvalley/lakes/6757 From louiss at gate.net Thu Oct 4 20:49:52 2001 From: louiss at gate.net (Louis Schulman) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:28 2005 Subject: Osborne OCC1 In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <200110050149.VAA16453@tisch.mail.mindspring.net> #> The MODEM is sort of rare and it and the disks are worth a few bucks but #>the smoking Oz is $5 item IMO. In fairness, the smoke is most likely coming from a burning resistor in the power supply (I have had this happen in several O1 computers in the past) and is a $.30 5-minute repair. Louis From vcf at vintage.org Thu Oct 4 20:49:50 2001 From: vcf at vintage.org (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:28 2005 Subject: Superfile for DOS? Message-ID: Might anyone have a copy of Superfile for DOS they can shoot over to me? Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org From jhellige at earthlink.net Thu Oct 4 20:55:10 2001 From: jhellige at earthlink.net (Jeff Hellige) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:28 2005 Subject: Scrapping Tektronix 4695 (was Re: Scrapping LA100 & Diablo printers) In-Reply-To: <20011004032646.58233.qmail@web20104.mail.yahoo.com> References: <20011004032646.58233.qmail@web20104.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: >Every couple of years, I seem to make a purchase that does _not_ work >out. This is the one from about 1989. Later, it was a Syquest 44Mb >drive. It was nice, but the carts cost so much that I never bought any >more; I just used it as an expensive 44Mb semi-fixed SCSI drive. :-( I still have one of the Iomega Beta 44A drives here, as well as a few cartridges. Not a bad drive. Like your Syquest, it's SCSI with 5-1/4" carts of 44MB capacity. Actually had it installed in the 5-1/4" bay of my Amiga 4000 for a bit. Jeff -- Home of the TRS-80 Model 2000 FAQ File http://www.cchaven.com http://www.geocities.com/siliconvalley/lakes/6757 From erd_6502 at yahoo.com Thu Oct 4 20:55:58 2001 From: erd_6502 at yahoo.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:28 2005 Subject: VAXen at home (was Re: Altair 8800a on EBAY) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20011005015558.79059.qmail@web20103.mail.yahoo.com> --- Tony Duell wrote: > > --- Absurdly Obtuse wrote: > > > > > > Depending on the exact time frame, it could be the DEC VAX 11/730 > > > that was the machine everyone was drooling over. Or the IBM S/38. > > > > For *home*? I first laid hands on an 11/730 when it was current, but > > Apart from the price, why not? I got an 11/725 from a former employer in 1986 or 1987 (whenever DEC temporarily embargoed VMS license transfers). It was $4000. I was living the life of a student while making decent wages as a programmer. I had lots of spare cash for expensive toys then (fortunately, in the case of this VAX, it didn't cost me the prevailing used price at the time, but I know I forked over more than $2K for it - still have the VMS license in my name!) In 1989, we (different employer) got that VAX 8200 I have now - $12,000, only because I had them strip out the parts we didn't need, and we pre-paid it - it was originally listed at $14,000. If you had multiple-thousands of dollars, you could get a VAX at home prior to 1988, but in practice, I doubt it happened very often. Mostly, hard-core DECies had PDP-11s and PDP-8s. > A VAX 11/730 'compact system' (one > half-height rack containing the CPU, R80 winchester and either an RL02 or > a TS05 tape) is easily small enough to use at home. Placing it in its historical context, size wasn't the issue I was objecting to - I got my first 19" racks at home in 1983 when I was still in high school (PDP-8/i in one rack, DF-32 in another). I know hams who had racks then. It was cost compared to other items. Home VAXen were extremely rare 15 years ago. I know; I had one. I still have various glossies with prices from those days. The stuff was not cheap, but it was great. -ethan __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? NEW from Yahoo! GeoCities - quick and easy web site hosting, just $8.95/month. http://geocities.yahoo.com/ps/info1 From rigdonj at intellistar.net Thu Oct 4 21:15:51 2001 From: rigdonj at intellistar.net (Joe) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:28 2005 Subject: Osborne OCC1 In-Reply-To: References: <3.0.6.32.20011004180854.007b8100@mailhost.intellistar.net> <200110042023.QAA30126@smtp6.mindspring.com> <3.0.6.32.20011004180854.007b8100@mailhost.intellistar.net> Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20011004221551.007bf1d0@mailhost.intellistar.net> At 08:55 PM 10/4/01 -0400, you wrote: >> >> The MODEM is sort of rare and it and the disks are worth a few bucks but >>the smoking Oz is $5 item IMO. > > The modem's kinda cool though. I've actually used mine to >call a BBS in the past, using Amcall from MicroCall. > > Jeff One of mine has a MODEM but I've never tried to use it. Does anyone still support 1200 baud? Joe From erd_6502 at yahoo.com Thu Oct 4 21:17:26 2001 From: erd_6502 at yahoo.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:28 2005 Subject: need some advice on some VAX boards ... In-Reply-To: <15292.38436.776681.17684@phaduka.neurotica.com> Message-ID: <20011005021726.40866.qmail@web20107.mail.yahoo.com> --- Dave McGuire wrote: > On October 3, Ethan Dicks wrote: > > RD31 - ST225 > > RD32 - ST241-1 > > Just a nit...the RD32 is an ST251... Oops... I knew that. > ...not a -1 model. I thought that it specifically _was_ the -1. I _think_ I have a DEC- badged RD-32 (ST-252-1) from a Pro380 VAX 8530 console, but I might be mistaken. Maybe they got what they could get in later years. > The ST251 had an average access time of 40ms (if memory serves) and > the ST251-1 was 28.5ms. That sounds right. Stepper motor vs. voice coil. (The ST-225 was something horrible like 65ms or more; I used to think seek-time didn't matter much on a micro, but when I went from 65ms to 28 on my Amiga, _wow_!) -ethan __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? NEW from Yahoo! GeoCities - quick and easy web site hosting, just $8.95/month. http://geocities.yahoo.com/ps/info1 From rigdonj at intellistar.net Thu Oct 4 21:28:27 2001 From: rigdonj at intellistar.net (Joe) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:28 2005 Subject: Osborne OCC1 In-Reply-To: <3BBD107F.C89BA84B@mail.verizon.net> References: <200110042023.QAA30126@smtp6.mindspring.com> <3.0.6.32.20011004180854.007b8100@mailhost.intellistar.net> Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20011004222827.007bb960@mailhost.intellistar.net> At 09:44 PM 10/4/01 -0400, Eric wrote: >Hey Jeff, > >As I recall the next systems we were to work on was these same O-1s. Man, I can't >wait. I have two and would like to get both working. > >Eric > >P.S. One boots, but only B drive. And that was after some serious work! Let me know what you find. I need to work on a couple of mine. My executive will ony boot about every 50 attempts (drive errors). I swapped the drives but it didn't help. I haven't had time to trouble shoot it beyond that. Joe From rigdonj at intellistar.net Thu Oct 4 21:30:45 2001 From: rigdonj at intellistar.net (Joe) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:28 2005 Subject: Osborne OCC1 In-Reply-To: <200110050149.VAA16453@tisch.mail.mindspring.net> References: Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20011004223045.007b5420@mailhost.intellistar.net> At 09:49 PM 10/4/01 -0400, you wrote: >#> The MODEM is sort of rare and it and the disks are worth a few bucks but >#>the smoking Oz is $5 item IMO. > >In fairness, the smoke is most likely coming from a burning resistor in the power supply (I have had this >happen in several O1 computers in the past) and is a $.30 5-minute repair. > >Louis I would check the capacitors in the power supply. There's a good chance that one of them is beginning to short out and is drawing excessive current from the power supply and that is causing the current limiting resistor to overheat. Joe > > From ncherry at home.com Thu Oct 4 21:29:49 2001 From: ncherry at home.com (Neil Cherry) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:28 2005 Subject: Z80 or 68K Xinu source? Message-ID: <3BBD1B1D.2A66A674@home.com> Does any one have the source code to Xinu for the Z80 (prefered) or the 68K? I'm working on Circuit Cellar's HCS II (10 in Jan a now Open Sorce :-) and I'd like to take advantage of Xinu and Zilog's newer Z80 derivatives. Thanks -- Linux Home Automation Neil Cherry ncherry@home.net http://members.home.net/ncherry (Text only) http://linuxha.sourceforge.net/ (SourceForge) http://hcs.sourceforge.net/ (HCS II) From erd_6502 at yahoo.com Thu Oct 4 21:25:25 2001 From: erd_6502 at yahoo.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:28 2005 Subject: Syquest 44Mb drives/discs (was Re: Scrapping Tektronix 4695) In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.0.20011004080005.022c4ed0@pc> Message-ID: <20011005022525.83107.qmail@web20103.mail.yahoo.com> --- John Foust wrote: > At 08:26 PM 10/3/01 -0700, Ethan Dicks wrote: > >Later, it was a Syquest 44Mb > >drive. It was nice, but the carts cost so much that I never bought any > >more; I just used it as an expensive 44Mb semi-fixed SCSI drive. :-( > > Hey, if you need a few Syquest drives or carts ... :-) I did in 1992, but not now, really. I got it for my girlfriend's Amiga to use with A-Max - ~50Mb used SCSI disks were >$100 at the time (shortly thereafter, I was buying DEC RZ22s (50Mb) for $100, then within a year, RZ23s (100Mb) for the same price - still got 'em; they never went bad). I think I have two working SQ555s and about 5 carts. Used to have it in a IBM-XT-style sidecar case. Now they sit on the shelf. :-P One plan I had for them was if I ever got that SCSI board for my PDP-8, 44Mb is much more than enough room for OS/8. Almost too large, in fact. Thanks for the offer, but no thanks. -ethan __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? NEW from Yahoo! GeoCities - quick and easy web site hosting, just $8.95/month. http://geocities.yahoo.com/ps/info1 From optimus at canit.se Thu Oct 4 22:24:28 2001 From: optimus at canit.se (Iggy Drougge) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:28 2005 Subject: Scrapping Tektronix 4695 (was Re: Scrapping LA100 & Diablo printers) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <1846.678T1400T2644745optimus@canit.se> Mike Ford skrev: >>At 08:26 PM 10/3/01 -0700, Ethan Dicks wrote: >>>Later, it was a Syquest 44Mb >>>drive. It was nice, but the carts cost so much that I never bought any >>>more; I just used it as an expensive 44Mb semi-fixed SCSI drive. :-( >> >>Hey, if you need a few Syquest drives or carts ... :-) >When I bought my 44 MB first Syquest I budgeted for 5 cartridges, and used >it quite a bit, initially for backups, and later on as just a handy >portable scsi boot device. Once I had a bootable CD that kind of fell off, >but recently I bought a EZ230 and a 270 MB drive, and those I expect to put >some usefull things on (small projects like a NETBsd firewall to copy to >internal drives). I'm playing an MP3 off a 44 MB disk right now, just because I'd taken it home on the SQ and was curious whether it could keep up with real-time MP3 playback. It does, though barely. I was happy when I got my first SyQuest (some time this year), but the first thing I noticed was how excruciatingly slow it was. Thanks to a stroke of luck at the salvation army, I recently got hold of just about every kind of SyQuest drive made. At only 20 kr (~2 USD) a piece, I got hold of a 44 MB (I've already got too many of those), an 88 MB, one 200 MB and one EZ135. The only ones I miss now would be the 250 MB 5? drive (there was such a thing, right?) and the EZ270. >Sometimes a network connection, even old slow LocalTalk is the most >convient thing to use. SCSI has fussy issues it isn't worth sorting out. Since we haven't got any kind of connection the outside world at the UG, save for sneakernet, I've come to rely on the SyQuest a lot. It's slow, but at least it beats diskettes (though not for speed) and hard drives (I used to carry a 600 MB full-height 5?" SCSI HD back and forth before, but that was painful!). -- En ligne avec Thor 2.6a. From optimus at canit.se Thu Oct 4 21:34:39 2001 From: optimus at canit.se (Iggy Drougge) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:28 2005 Subject: IBM ROM BASIC or lack thereof In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <1381.678T1950T2145483optimus@canit.se> Tony Duell skrev: >> Really, who doesn't? While I've not seen many colour-coded computers, I've >> seldom seen any without properly labeled ports. >Didn't we go through this a few weeks back? When some of us posted about >connectors found on ISA slot covers, and others guessed what they were? Yep. It seems as though a few "elite hackers" still aren't convinced, though. >However, I've seen too many computers with incorrect labelling. I've seen >PCs with a DE9 COM port with a mouse icon over it. OK, so the >pre-installed version of Windows presumably expected a serial mouse on >COM1: . That does not make that port a mouse port, though, at least not >to a hardware hacker like me. No, D9 mouse ports are for quadrature mice. Everyone knows that. Speaking of quadrature and improperly labelled ports, why do HP call their PS/2 mouse to HIL adapter "quadrature adapter"? The quadrature ends before it even goes out of the mouse and onto the cable. >> Are you going to set up your computer by trial-or-error? >Well, it ensures that people who can change buffer chips will always find >a job after some idiot plugs a printer cable into a DB25-S RS232 port.... IMO he wouldn't be an idiot if the port wasn't labeled as an RS-232 port. -- En ligne avec Thor 2.6a. Vi m?ste vara r?dda om varandra - det ?r det enda reciproka pronomen vi har. From optimus at canit.se Thu Oct 4 21:28:47 2001 From: optimus at canit.se (Iggy Drougge) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:28 2005 Subject: IBM ROM BASIC or lack thereof In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <2149.678T2350T2085883optimus@canit.se> Tony Duell skrev: >> I was just thinking that Tony treats his PC as if it had never gained >> market acceptance and thus has to be treated in the same careful way as >> some non-PC machine. A lot of us do the same kind of thing to our >> computers, I think, only not to PCs. >To me, a PC, particularly an true IBM PC (or PC/XT, or PC/AT) _is_ a >computer. A computer to be programmed, modified, repaired, etc, in the >same way as all other computers. >What is so strange about that? Well, you must be the only person on this list who has got a sufficient amount of TTL chips available to repair any trivial function in your PC but not the replacement cards. I'm drowning in serial port cards and disk controllers for PCs, but I haven't got a single loose 16450 UART chip. To me, PCs are computers, but they are also commodity items of little value. And they're awfully boring computers. The main use of a PC for me is either a cheap way to build some computer which I won't personally operate on my desk (so it makes an ideal router or firewall, something which would be too expensive to build with Amiga hardware), or as a source of components for other, more interesting computers. I've now got a sizeable supply of TTL chips of all kinds which I've removed from old PC motherboards. So nonw I won't need to go to the electronics shop when I've destroyed a 7402 or a 74ALS373, I just take one from a PC, and that is putting the PC to good use in my book. =) I agree that we're living in a strange world where replacing the entire card is much easier than just getting the damaged component. It's usually cheaper for me to cut up some pre-made "PC" cable and solder the right connectors onto it than to buy all the materials at the shop. It seems as though the average Taiwanese worker is so cheap, he/she's gives only a negative increase to the price of the final product. =/ -- En ligne avec Thor 2.6a. A Spanish MSX Group "Matra" visited to this Fair. I lent Spanish stand to them. They showed and did Promotion play of SEX BOMB BUNNY. And this Game has tema song of Majingar-Z! Why they know Japanese TV animation? K. Ikeda, MSX-Print From optimus at canit.se Thu Oct 4 22:40:33 2001 From: optimus at canit.se (Iggy Drougge) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:28 2005 Subject: LK401 mystery circuit Message-ID: <1369.678T1650T2805135optimus@canit.se> After Tony's suggestion that I test our faulty LK201s with a VT terminal, it turned out that both worked fine with a VT420. So I thought I'd give our LK401s a try as well. And it actually turned out that one worked! The other still didn't. I opened them up and connected them to the VT, and after a while, I noticed that a small (14 pins DIL?) Motrola IC called LC74750P was much hotter on the faulty board. I established that the fault was on the PCB by connecting the working one to the keyboard matrix of the faulty one. The 74750P was only pleasantly warm in the functioning keyboard, whereas it got as hot as a Pentium processor after a while on the faulty PCB. So I thought I just had to nip down to the shop and get some standard TTL (it does begin with a 74...) chip and solder back (in a socket =). No such luck. The clerk couldn't find the chip in store, in any catalogue or any databook. He suggested that it might have been made as a batch only for DEC. Does anyone know what kind of chip this might be, and if it's available anywhere? As for the LK401, the PCB contains three ICs: 1 ? 74750P (???) 1 ? i8051 (microcontroller, does this have some on-board ROM which prevents drop-in replacement?) 1 ? AMTEL something or other. Could it be a ROM? -- En ligne avec Thor 2.6a. Die Malerei ist stumme Poesie, die Poesie blinde Malerei. --- Leonardo da Vinci From erd_6502 at yahoo.com Thu Oct 4 21:49:17 2001 From: erd_6502 at yahoo.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:28 2005 Subject: TRS-80 Model II 68000 upgrade (anybody got one?) In-Reply-To: <3BB64E97.AB44832F@bedrocksys.com> Message-ID: <20011005024917.85642.qmail@web20105.mail.yahoo.com> --- "John W. Linville" wrote: > Greetings! > > I'm looking for the fabled card that goes into a TRS-80 Model II and > upgrades it to the equivalent of a TRS-80 Model 16. Eventually, I'd > like to be able to run XENIX on my TRS-80... I'm about to _get_ a Model 12 this weekend, if the planets align. I'm an avid fan of the 68000 from way back. If more than one person pipes up with one, please consider me. Thanks, -ethan __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? NEW from Yahoo! GeoCities - quick and easy web site hosting, just $8.95/month. http://geocities.yahoo.com/ps/info1 From mcguire at neurotica.com Thu Oct 4 22:01:30 2001 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:28 2005 Subject: need some advice on some VAX boards ... In-Reply-To: Re: need some advice on some VAX boards ... (Ethan Dicks) References: <15292.38436.776681.17684@phaduka.neurotica.com> <20011005021726.40866.qmail@web20107.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <15293.8842.491198.175645@phaduka.neurotica.com> On October 4, Ethan Dicks wrote: > I thought that it specifically _was_ the -1. I _think_ I have a DEC- > badged RD-32 (ST-252-1) from a Pro380 VAX 8530 console, but I might > be mistaken. Maybe they got what they could get in later years. Probably so. > > The ST251 had an average access time of 40ms (if memory serves) and > > the ST251-1 was 28.5ms. > > That sounds right. Stepper motor vs. voice coil. (The ST-225 was > something horrible like 65ms or more; I used to think seek-time didn't > matter much on a micro, but when I went from 65ms to 28 on my Amiga, > _wow_!) The ST251-1 is a stepper drive also, believe it or not. They actually built a stepper positioner that achieved 28.5ms. Back when it was new I heard something about them having patented it or something. The ST225 was indeed 65ms...scary slow. It made a great distinctive "peep-peep" sound, though...which I liked even more than the [still rather cool] "chirp-chirp" sound of the ST251 and ST251-1. :-) I believe the first voice-coil drvie in that family was the ST-4096, but I'm not positive of that. That was one nice drive. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Laurel, MD From erd_6502 at yahoo.com Thu Oct 4 22:04:08 2001 From: erd_6502 at yahoo.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:29 2005 Subject: Is there a source for veroboard in the U.S.? Message-ID: <20011005030408.43578.qmail@web20104.mail.yahoo.com> I wanted to bang out a quick thing involving bussed lines (an LED display for a Dragon's Lair game, if you're curious). I thought it might be quick to do with veroboard as opposed to point-to-point wiring. I want to make a prototype before considering burning a board (since that's a weakness I have at the moment anyway - lack of knowledge about layout tools). The problem is that I haven't seen veroboard for sale in the States, only the U.K. and perhaps Western Europe. Here, we have lots of modular prototyping board, but it's not easy to use when you have a lot of parallel connections (like a data bus). Are there any sources on this side of the pond? If not, how much does a sheet of about 6"x9" cost? If it's too expensive to buy and ship, I have several square feet of plain blue perfboard I got from the Micro Center when they put all their hobbyist stuff on remainder, and I'll build it from scratch. I went to school in England in 1985 - New College, specifically, down the street from Blackwell's Books. I spent many hours there absorbing everything I could about hardware hacking (not having the budget to _buy_ the books - the Turf Tavern was closer to the gate ;-) I remember a couple books with do-it-yourself projects using veroboard. Now I wish I'd gotten more books and less beer (but it was _great_ beer) :-) Any veroboard pointers? Thanks, -ethan __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? NEW from Yahoo! GeoCities - quick and easy web site hosting, just $8.95/month. http://geocities.yahoo.com/ps/info1 From erd_6502 at yahoo.com Thu Oct 4 22:17:22 2001 From: erd_6502 at yahoo.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:29 2005 Subject: Restoring classic kits we built way-back-when Message-ID: <20011005031722.68043.qmail@web20101.mail.yahoo.com> We've had the ongoing debate of "build a ZX-81 kit or leave it in the box", but one aspect of classic kit building I have a question for the group about is, what about stuff that we built ourselves 10+ years ago that still works, but might need some touch-up. Specifically, I have several things (a TVT-6, a Cosmac Elf, a homemade arcade button panel for playing Space Invaders on a PET, a 2-char LED display for the PET, etc.) that I made when I was a teenager. They still work, so it's not a question of repair. It's an aesthetic thing - my soldering skills were much poorer when I was 13. I'm debating re-soldering these items (and risking breaking them) or leaving them the way they are a) because if it works, don't screw with it, and b) it's a snapshot of my own context in the greater historical framework. I took history and archaeology in school; I have a strong aversion to modernizing artifacts. When restoring pots, statues, mosaics, etc., an archaeologist tries to never restore an antiquity in a way that can't be reversed (they use water-soluable glue made from fish scales to move mosaic fragments, for example). Also, when modern materials are used, no attempt to make it resemble the ancient material is made - quite the opposite - it's plainly and intentionally modern looking so ever a casual observer can't mistake it for the missing original. When my advisor restored the bed of a large monochrome mosaic near Isthmia, he threw several modern coins into the concrete bed so that future excavators would know that it wasn't ancient concrete. So re-soldering my TVT-6 makes it look nice, but dilutes the fact that it was originally built in the 1970s, just as much as using modern ICs does. Do people have an opinion about this? Am I just stuck on the horns of a false dilemma? -ethan __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? NEW from Yahoo! GeoCities - quick and easy web site hosting, just $8.95/month. http://geocities.yahoo.com/ps/info1 From gwynp at artware.qc.ca Thu Oct 4 22:37:24 2001 From: gwynp at artware.qc.ca (gwynp@artware.qc.ca) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:29 2005 Subject: IBM ROM BASIC or lack thereof In-Reply-To: <2149.678T2350T2085883optimus@canit.se> Message-ID: On 05-Oct-2001 Iggy Drougge wrote: > I agree that we're living in a strange world where replacing the entire > card is much easier than just getting the damaged component. Especially if you figure in the cost of labour need to find what is broken... but then you are talking about doing it yourself. > It's usually cheaper for me to cut up some pre-made "PC" cable and > solder the right connectors onto it than to buy all the materials at > the shop. It seems as though the average Taiwanese worker is so cheap, > he/she's gives only a negative increase to the price of the final > product. =/ Or supply and demand. How many people solder db9 connectors? Compare that to how many people want mouse "extenders". -Philip From healyzh at aracnet.com Thu Oct 4 22:43:54 2001 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:29 2005 Subject: Restoring classic kits we built way-back-when In-Reply-To: from "Ethan Dicks" at Oct 04, 2001 08:17:22 PM Message-ID: <200110050343.f953htD13465@shell1.aracnet.com> > them) or leaving them the way they are a) because if it works, don't > screw with it, and b) it's a snapshot of my own context in the greater > historical framework. Personally I think the real issue here is that if it works don't mess with it. So your soldering might be sloppy. Big deal. Yes, I'm a big fan of if it works don't mess with it. Zane From acme_ent at bellsouth.net Thu Oct 4 22:46:35 2001 From: acme_ent at bellsouth.net (Glen Goodwin) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:29 2005 Subject: Osborne OCC1 Message-ID: <20011005034821.GMTA16837.imf10bis.bellsouth.net@thegoodw> Louis Schulman wrote: > #I have come across an Osborne model OCC1 Serial # 134033. This unit has the > #300 baud modem. It also has 5 1/4 disk with it. (SuperCalc, WordStar, > #Qbasic) The unit boots up and runs the software but after about 15 to 20 > #minutes it starts to overheat.(smoke) > #My question is - What is the selling price for a unit like this and where > #would be the best place to sell it? > > Well, I have a related question. I have an '86 Dodge that runs fine for 10 or 15 minutes, but then the > passenger compartment fills with smoke and flames shoot out of the grill. > > What is the blue book on an "86 Dodge with flames and smoke? (Louis, that's *funny*!) Uh, the blue book value is -$10,000 -- you'd have to pay me to take possession of it. I hate to tell this guy but I think the last thing most of us wants is another insane computer . . . Glen 0/0 From KenzieM at sympatico.ca Thu Oct 4 22:46:45 2001 From: KenzieM at sympatico.ca (Mike Kenzie) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:29 2005 Subject: Osborne OCC1 References: <3.0.6.32.20011004180854.007b8100@mailhost.intellistar.net> <200110042023.QAA30126@smtp6.mindspring.com> <3.0.6.32.20011004180854.007b8100@mailhost.intellistar.net> <3.0.6.32.20011004221551.007bf1d0@mailhost.intellistar.net> Message-ID: <006201c14d52$53818a20$0101a8c0@sympatico.ca> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Joe" To: Sent: Thursday, October 04, 2001 10:15 PM Subject: Re: Osborne OCC1 > At 08:55 PM 10/4/01 -0400, you wrote: > > >> > >> The MODEM is sort of rare and it and the disks are worth a few bucks but > >>the smoking Oz is $5 item IMO. > > > > The modem's kinda cool though. I've actually used mine to > >call a BBS in the past, using Amcall from MicroCall. > > > > Jeff > > One of mine has a MODEM but I've never tried to use it. Does anyone > still support 1200 baud? > The National Capital Freenet in Ottawa still does. Can hang a modem off the back of a VT100 and get usenet and email just fine. (613) 520-1135 is the number to call, you can log in as guest. From KenzieM at sympatico.ca Thu Oct 4 23:00:48 2001 From: KenzieM at sympatico.ca (Mike Kenzie) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:29 2005 Subject: houston (mostly DEC) garage sale/giveaway References: <3BBCFA40.C1AF18EB@arrl.net> Message-ID: <006401c14d52$59ac0fb0$0101a8c0@sympatico.ca> ----- Original Message ----- From: "no" To: Sent: Thursday, October 04, 2001 8:09 PM Subject: houston (mostly DEC) garage sale/giveaway > My acquisition rate has exceeded my storage capacity so am making the > following available to list members pre-eBay. Bigger items to Houston > area only, (no shipping at this time). > > All items in working condition unless otherwise noted. > > > DEC ba23 cabinet, unpopulated FREE > DEC ba213 cab, unpopulated FREE > DEC sz-12 storage expansion; rz55 FREE > DEC Ext Strage box, rz56 FREE > > Vaxstation 4000/model 60;no hd $25 > Vaxstation 3100/m76 SPX; vms6.x $25 > Vaxstation 3100/m76 SPX $20 > Microvax 3100/20e; vms $20 I'm still looking for a BC18Z cable for a VAXstation II/GPX the first one turned out to be a BC23J, and the next one was a BC18P close but still no cigar. From oliv555 at arrl.net Thu Oct 4 23:01:43 2001 From: oliv555 at arrl.net (no) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:29 2005 Subject: houston (mostly DEC) garage sale/giveaway References: <5.1.0.14.0.20011004173313.00a7cba0@mcmanis.com> Message-ID: <3BBD30A7.A758F5E9@arrl.net> OK. I'll split the shipping which i est about $5. So you can either paypal or send $12.50. I have several of these bds if you are in need of more. They look to be unused, never did get my mvIII project finished so didn't get to use them. -nick Nick Oliviero PMB # 117 8524 Hwy 6 North Houston, TX 77095-2103 Chuck McManis wrote: > > I'll take the DSSI board > > --Chuck > From dittman at dittman.net Thu Oct 4 23:08:12 2001 From: dittman at dittman.net (Eric Dittman) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:29 2005 Subject: HSD05 Results Message-ID: <200110050408.f9548CJ28568@narnia.int.dittman.net> I found one DSSI cable to connect one of my two HSD05 controllers to my VAX 4000/500 (I'm still looking for another). I've read that the HSD05 controller is not very fast, so I used the disk speed benchmark mybenchmark and tested an RZ28B vs. an RF72 and find the HSD05-connected RZ28B is slightly faster than the RF72. I'm going to test my RF73 tomorrow. I'm curious as to whether the smaller RF3x drives are faster than the RF7x drives. Does anyone have any benchmarks? -- Eric Dittman dittman@dittman.net Check out the DEC Enthusiasts Club at http://www.dittman.net/ From acme_ent at bellsouth.net Thu Oct 4 23:08:37 2001 From: acme_ent at bellsouth.net (Glen Goodwin) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:29 2005 Subject: IBM ROM BASIC or lack thereof Message-ID: <20011005041026.UPDX17685.imf02bis.bellsouth.net@thegoodw> Tony Duell wrote: > However, I've seen too many computers with incorrect labelling. I've seen > PCs with a DE9 COM port with a mouse icon over it. OK, so the > pre-installed version of Windows presumably expected a serial mouse on > COM1: . That does not make that port a mouse port, though, at least not > to a hardware hacker like me. You are absolutely right that the port is not a "mouse" port, but if it has a picture of a mouse next to it then Suzy will know where to plug her mouse in. Glen 0/0 From acme_ent at bellsouth.net Thu Oct 4 23:22:45 2001 From: acme_ent at bellsouth.net (Glen Goodwin) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:29 2005 Subject: Osborne OCC1 Message-ID: <20011005042431.TKBY6797.imf06bis.bellsouth.net@thegoodw> Joe wrote: > One of mine has a MODEM but I've never tried to use it. Does anyone > still support 1200 baud? The ZX-TEAM Mailbox supports 300-14400 baud ;>) Glen 0/0 From oliv555 at arrl.net Thu Oct 4 23:24:42 2001 From: oliv555 at arrl.net (no) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:29 2005 Subject: houston (mostly DEC) garage sale/giveaway References: <5.1.0.14.0.20011004173313.00a7cba0@mcmanis.com> <3BBD30A7.A758F5E9@arrl.net> Message-ID: <3BBD360A.FC9D9865@arrl.net> Sorry, that was meant to go private mail no wrote: > > OK. I'll split the shipping which i est about $5. So you can > either paypal or send $12.50. I have several of these bds if you > are in need of more. They look to be unused, never did get my > mvIII project finished so didn't get to use them. > > -nick > > Nick Oliviero > PMB # 117 > 8524 Hwy 6 North > Houston, TX 77095-2103 > > Chuck McManis wrote: > > > > I'll take the DSSI board > > > > --Chuck > > From uban at ubanproductions.com Thu Oct 4 23:25:10 2001 From: uban at ubanproductions.com (Tom Uban) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:29 2005 Subject: Z80 or 68K Xinu source? In-Reply-To: <3BBD1B1D.2A66A674@home.com> Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.20011004232510.00b1ba50@ubanproductions.com> Neil, There are numerous versions of Xinu (v6-v8) and there are a number of target processors. The matrix of the two are not complete, but I have some of them. The earlier versions do not have full network support, but the later ones do. I have an early 68k version and some later x86 versions. There are also pdp11 versions. Let me know what you are looking for. --tom At 10:29 PM 10/4/01 -0400, you wrote: >Does any one have the source code to Xinu for the Z80 (prefered) or the 68K? > >I'm working on Circuit Cellar's HCS II (10 in Jan a now Open Sorce :-) >and I'd like to take advantage of Xinu and Zilog's newer Z80 derivatives. > >Thanks > >-- >Linux Home Automation Neil Cherry ncherry@home.net >http://members.home.net/ncherry (Text only) >http://linuxha.sourceforge.net/ (SourceForge) >http://hcs.sourceforge.net/ (HCS II) > > From vance at ikickass.org Thu Oct 4 23:57:47 2001 From: vance at ikickass.org (Absurdly Obtuse) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:29 2005 Subject: need some advice on some VAX boards ... In-Reply-To: <15293.8842.491198.175645@phaduka.neurotica.com> Message-ID: On Thu, 4 Oct 2001, Dave McGuire wrote: > The ST225 was indeed 65ms...scary slow. It made a great distinctive > "peep-peep" sound, though...which I liked even more than the [still > rather cool] "chirp-chirp" sound of the ST251 and ST251-1. :-) I *love* that sound. Another good one is the IBM WDA-105. That was a nice-sounding drive. Another melodic one. Only 5 megs though. Peace... Sridhar From holley at hyperlynx.com Fri Oct 5 00:18:32 2001 From: holley at hyperlynx.com (Michael Holley) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:29 2005 Subject: Restoring classic kits we built way-back-when References: <20011005031722.68043.qmail@web20101.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <002001c14d5d$2d023060$0300a8c0@bllvu1.wa.home.com> I build a replacement floppy disk controller card for SWTPC 6800 / 6809 computers. The original controllers were build from around 1977 to 1984. The first goal was to make it software compatible. A secondary goal was to duplicate the technology of the early 1980s. After working on it for a few months I decided to use a programmable logic device from 1991. This reduced the cost and made the design much more flexible. I would have liked to use all 1980s technology but the newer CPLD made the design much better. The Xilinx XC9572 CPLD is based on the Plus Logic 2020. I have an engineering sample of the 2020 with a 9118 date code. I did put the date (July 2001) on the board. You can see the design here. http://members.aol.com/swtpc6800/FDC2/FDC_Index.htm --------------------------- Michael Holley From dpeschel at eskimo.com Fri Oct 5 00:18:09 2001 From: dpeschel at eskimo.com (Derek Peschel) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:29 2005 Subject: Osborne OCC1 In-Reply-To: <20011005042431.TKBY6797.imf06bis.bellsouth.net@thegoodw>; from acme_ent@bellsouth.net on Fri, Oct 05, 2001 at 12:22:45AM -0400 References: <20011005042431.TKBY6797.imf06bis.bellsouth.net@thegoodw> Message-ID: <20011004221809.A23648@eskimo.eskimo.com> On Fri, Oct 05, 2001 at 12:22:45AM -0400, Glen Goodwin wrote: > Joe wrote: > > One of mine has a MODEM but I've never tried to use it. Does anyone > > still support 1200 baud? > > The ZX-TEAM Mailbox supports 300-14400 baud ;>) Humph. Even BBSs, terminal servers, etc. that support 300 baud don't seem to go that extra mile and handle 110 baud. How am I supposed to call using my Teletype? :) (Not that I have one, but it would be fun.) -- Derek From montkw at sbcglobal.net Fri Oct 5 00:30:52 2001 From: montkw at sbcglobal.net (montkw@sbcglobal.net) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:29 2005 Subject: Anyone looking for an MSM Terminal Server for their museum??? Message-ID: <000c01c14d5e$ebd8c0c0$6401a8c0@hal9000ii> This was just passed on to me: -----Original Message----- From: Francis Girard [mailto:fgirard@cisco.com] Sent: Thursday, October 04, 2001 11:23 AM To: canada@cisco.com; sales-eng@cisco.com Subject: Anyone looking for an MSM Terminal Server for their museum??? A customer just called me to inform me that they're about to throw away about 10 very special terminal servers. They bought these back in 1990, and have serial numbers 000001 through 0000010! Hydro-Quebec may have very well been the first customer to purchase our MSM Terminal Server. I have no idea what these look like, but their still functional. Is anyone interested in these??? Let me know ASAP as he's about to junk them. Note that, although he didn't suggest any form of compensation, I'm sure this customer would be very pleased of getting some sort of promo item (please, not a stress ball).... Let me know. Francis -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Francis Girard Ing?nieur de r?seau Les Syst?mes Cisco Canada Cie 1501, avenue McGill College, Bureau 600 Montr?al (Qu?bec) H3A 3M8 Tel : (514) 847-6853 Fax : (514) 847-6802 Pager : 1-800-68CISCO fgirard@cisco.com www.cisco.com -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20011004/9dca0ed5/attachment.html From dpeschel at eskimo.com Fri Oct 5 00:27:16 2001 From: dpeschel at eskimo.com (Derek Peschel) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:29 2005 Subject: TECO manuals In-Reply-To: <20011002163544.T15092@mrbill.net>; from mrbill@mrbill.net on Tue, Oct 02, 2001 at 04:35:44PM -0500 References: <20011002163544.T15092@mrbill.net> Message-ID: <20011004222714.A24045@eskimo.eskimo.com> On Tue, Oct 02, 2001 at 04:35:44PM -0500, Bill Bradford wrote: > Anybody know of any online TECO manuals? I've got a set of > DECsystem-10 TECO manuals that I'll scan if they dont already > exist online.... And (while the subject is current) if anyone has the LINK-10 manual or the WILD and SCAN specs, I'd be interested in seeing them. Also the manual for TV on TOPS-20 (which is a dialect of TECO but different enough from TOPS-10 TECO that the manual wouldn't be useful) or the manual for BBN TECO (which I think is an ancestor of TV) -- maybe Al Kossow has the latter? Thanks, -- Derek From mikeford at socal.rr.com Fri Oct 5 00:42:38 2001 From: mikeford at socal.rr.com (Mike Ford) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:29 2005 Subject: Dec ribbon, scsi cable In-Reply-To: <20011005041026.UPDX17685.imf02bis.bellsouth.net@thegoodw> Message-ID: Looks like a 50 pin ribbon, one end is a D shape female with 3 rows, other end is split with two two row female typical ribbon connections. Label says Digital p/n 17-01098-4 (second one is -5), Rev C ECO d01, mfg Phoenix Elec. I have two, need zero. Looks like a high density 68 pin scsi connector on each end, one is 45 degree, marked CBL 0300 or something like that. Have 1, could get maybe a couple more, need zero (but it is a cool cable maybe some day I might need). SoCal only, box of Digital Ultrix binders. From healyzh at aracnet.com Fri Oct 5 00:48:18 2001 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:29 2005 Subject: TECO manuals In-Reply-To: <20011004222714.A24045@eskimo.eskimo.com> from "Derek Peschel" at Oct 04, 2001 10:27:16 PM Message-ID: <200110050548.f955mIO17816@shell1.aracnet.com> > And (while the subject is current) if anyone has the LINK-10 manual > or the WILD and SCAN specs, I'd be interested in seeing them. What vintage LINK-10? IIRC, my manual dates back to around 1970. Have you checked on Al Kossow's site for a copy? Zane From erd_6502 at yahoo.com Fri Oct 5 00:50:55 2001 From: erd_6502 at yahoo.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:29 2005 Subject: Osborne OCC1 In-Reply-To: <20011004221809.A23648@eskimo.eskimo.com> Message-ID: <20011005055055.28461.qmail@web20108.mail.yahoo.com> --- Derek Peschel wrote: > Humph. Even BBSs, terminal servers, etc. that support 300 baud don't > seem to go that extra mile and handle 110 baud. How am I supposed to > call using my Teletype? :) (Not that I have one, but it would be fun.) When I got my first teletype, it had a 110 baud dataset in the pedestal. I didn't know how to test it, so I called CompuServe (back when they were strictly an ASCII service); I got a login prompt. I have not tried any connections that slow in over 10 years, and I seriously doubt there's anything out there listing at 110 baud anymore. -ethan __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? NEW from Yahoo! GeoCities - quick and easy web site hosting, just $8.95/month. http://geocities.yahoo.com/ps/info1 From dpeschel at eskimo.com Fri Oct 5 00:51:17 2001 From: dpeschel at eskimo.com (Derek Peschel) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:29 2005 Subject: TECO manuals In-Reply-To: <01K916DA2HYA96W3FQ@cc.usu.edu>; from IVIE@cc.usu.edu on Tue, Oct 02, 2001 at 04:45:11PM -0600 References: <01K916DA2HYA96W3FQ@cc.usu.edu> Message-ID: <20011004225117.B24045@eskimo.eskimo.com> On Tue, Oct 02, 2001 at 04:45:11PM -0600, Roger Ivie wrote: > >> Anybody know of any online TECO manuals? I've got a set of > >> DECsystem-10 TECO manuals that I'll scan if they dont already > >> exist online.... > > > >I'm not aware of any TECO manuals online, and I'm almost positive that there > >aren't any DECsystem-10 TECO manuals online. These would be a great > >addition. Actually http://www.ibiblio.org/pub/academic/computer-science/history/pdp-11/teco/doc/teco.doc is DEC's "Standard TECO" manual -- unlike their other application manuals (which cover the app. as part of the OS) this one is mostly OS-independent, with the OS-dependent stuff in the back. > What I'm looking for is a piece of software called "Video TECO". It's > a fairly nice (from my limited perspective) full-screen TECO in C that > I used for some time under Ultrix. I still have a printout of the manual > somewhere, but I seem to have lost my copy of the sources and haven't > been able to find a site online containing it. Try ftp://ftp.mindlink.net/pub/teco/cantrell-teco/ I got the link from http://vip.hex.net/~cbbrowne/teco.html (which I got by putting "video TECO" into AltaVista). -- Derek From technos at nerdland.org Fri Oct 5 01:04:39 2001 From: technos at nerdland.org (Jim Tuck) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:29 2005 Subject: need some advice on some VAX boards ... Message-ID: <01C14D42.1784E450.technos@nerdland.org> On Friday, October 05, 2001 12:58 AM, Absurdly Obtuse [SMTP:vance@ikickass.org] wrote: > On Thu, 4 Oct 2001, Dave McGuire wrote: > > > The ST225 was indeed 65ms...scary slow. It made a great distinctive > > "peep-peep" sound, though...which I liked even more than the [still > > rather cool] "chirp-chirp" sound of the ST251 and ST251-1. :-) > > I *love* that sound. Another good one is the IBM WDA-105. That was a > nice-sounding drive. Another melodic one. Only 5 megs though. > > Peace... Sridhar I used to have a pair of full height Micropolis that sounded just wonderful.. Jet-engine noises on startup, and a thick twang-beeeeep sound when it seeked. Dun remember what model, and I'm too lazy to dig em out and see, but I'm sure they were 170M units. Jim From Huw.Davies at kerberos.davies.net.au Fri Oct 5 02:18:35 2001 From: Huw.Davies at kerberos.davies.net.au (Huw Davies) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:29 2005 Subject: TECO manuals In-Reply-To: <20011004222714.A24045@eskimo.eskimo.com> References: <20011002163544.T15092@mrbill.net> <20011002163544.T15092@mrbill.net> Message-ID: <4.3.2.7.2.20011005171523.022479c0@kerberos.davies.net.au> At 10:27 PM 4/10/2001 -0700, Derek Peschel wrote: >And (while the subject is current) if anyone has the LINK-10 manual >or the WILD and SCAN specs, I'd be interested in seeing them. I do have a copy of the DECsystem-10 LINK-10 Programmer's Reference Manual dated July 1974. I just went to find it and inside on separate sheets were notes I was making regarding the format of .REL files (for reasons I no longer remember). OK, the issue is how do I scan this. I can probably borrow a flat bed scanner to attach to a "modern" PC. What format is considered the best? I need to know file format and scanning dpi. Scanning will take a while but I might try a chapter a day.... Huw Davies | e-mail: Huw.Davies@kerberos.davies.net.au | "If God had wanted soccer played in the | air, the sky would be painted green" From pete at dunnington.u-net.com Fri Oct 5 02:31:50 2001 From: pete at dunnington.u-net.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:29 2005 Subject: Cold/Hot storage of computers -- OK? In-Reply-To: John Foust "Re: Cold/Hot storage of computers -- OK?" (Oct 4, 17:22) References: <14.1b8bc211.28edded1@aol.com> <4.3.2.7.0.20011004172008.022e8900@pc> Message-ID: <10110050831.ZM4678@mindy.dunnington.u-net.com> On Oct 4, 17:22, John Foust wrote: > At 05:36 PM 10/4/01 +0000, Pete Turnbull wrote: > >The easiest way to deal with it is to ensure that the loft > >is ventilated, but a better way would be to use a dehumidifier. They're > >not too expensive to run (at least, not compared to heating or air > >conditioning) > > They're like little refrigerators, and most of them > aren't very smart about the set-point you've selected > in consideration of the actual temperature and humidity, > so they'll happily run when they can't do their job. > They work by condensation on the cooled coils. That's a good description, and it's true they're not very smart, but they do work. If the air gets too cold, just run a PDP-11 to warm it up :-) -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager University of York From foo at siconic.com Fri Oct 5 02:30:17 2001 From: foo at siconic.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:29 2005 Subject: Scrapping Tektronix 4695 (was Re: Scrapping LA100 & Diablo printers) In-Reply-To: <1846.678T1400T2644745optimus@canit.se> Message-ID: On 5 Oct 2001, Iggy Drougge wrote: > Thanks to a stroke of luck at the salvation army, I recently got hold of just There are Salvation Army stores in Sweden?? (Or where ever the hell it is you are from...) Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org From foo at siconic.com Fri Oct 5 02:34:25 2001 From: foo at siconic.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:29 2005 Subject: Restoring classic kits we built way-back-when In-Reply-To: <002001c14d5d$2d023060$0300a8c0@bllvu1.wa.home.com> Message-ID: On Thu, 4 Oct 2001, Michael Holley wrote: > I build a replacement floppy disk controller card for SWTPC 6800 / 6809 > computers. The original controllers were build from around 1977 to 1984. The > first goal was to make it software compatible. A secondary goal was to > duplicate the technology of the early 1980s. After working on it for a few > months I decided to use a programmable logic device from 1991. This reduced > the cost and made the design much more flexible. I would have liked to use > all 1980s technology but the newer CPLD made the design much better. > > The Xilinx XC9572 CPLD is based on the Plus Logic 2020. I have an > engineering sample of the 2020 with a 9118 date code. > > I did put the date (July 2001) on the board. > > You can see the design here. > http://members.aol.com/swtpc6800/FDC2/FDC_Index.htm I got one of these boards and I must say it is professionally designed and made. Fantastic work, Mike! Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org From geoffr at zipcon.net Fri Oct 5 03:07:16 2001 From: geoffr at zipcon.net (Geoff Reed) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:29 2005 Subject: TRS-80 Model II 68000 upgrade (anybody got one?) In-Reply-To: <20011005024917.85642.qmail@web20105.mail.yahoo.com> References: <3BB64E97.AB44832F@bedrocksys.com> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20011005010552.00a3cde0@mail.zipcon.net> By the way, it's not 1 card, it's 2 or 3 cards, a 68K processor board and up to 2 (IIRC) Ram boards, the default config of the boards was 4 banks of 64K dynamic rams, BUT :) with a pal upgrade and the addition of a connection or two you can put 256K drams into it for up to 2? megs of ram . At 07:49 PM 10/4/01 -0700, you wrote: >--- "John W. Linville" wrote: > > Greetings! > > > > I'm looking for the fabled card that goes into a TRS-80 Model II and > > upgrades it to the equivalent of a TRS-80 Model 16. Eventually, I'd > > like to be able to run XENIX on my TRS-80... > >I'm about to _get_ a Model 12 this weekend, if the planets align. I'm an >avid fan of the 68000 from way back. If more than one person pipes up >with one, please consider me. > >Thanks, > >-ethan > > > >__________________________________________________ >Do You Yahoo!? >NEW from Yahoo! GeoCities - quick and easy web site hosting, just $8.95/month. >http://geocities.yahoo.com/ps/info1 From jhellige at earthlink.net Fri Oct 5 04:18:09 2001 From: jhellige at earthlink.net (Jeff Hellige) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:29 2005 Subject: Osborne OCC1 In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.32.20011004221551.007bf1d0@mailhost.intellistar.net> References: <3.0.6.32.20011004180854.007b8100@mailhost.intellistar.net> <200110042023.QAA30126@smtp6.mindspring.com> <3.0.6.32.20011004180854.007b8100@mailhost.intellistar.net> <3.0.6.32.20011004221551.007bf1d0@mailhost.intellistar.net> Message-ID: > One of mine has a MODEM but I've never tried to use it. Does anyone >still support 1200 baud? The modem that slides into the cavity above the modem port is just 300 baud. Jeff -- Home of the TRS-80 Model 2000 FAQ File http://www.cchaven.com http://www.geocities.com/siliconvalley/lakes/6757 From jarkko.teppo at er-grp.com Fri Oct 5 05:48:54 2001 From: jarkko.teppo at er-grp.com (jarkko.teppo@er-grp.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:29 2005 Subject: HP 9000/847S In-Reply-To: <3BBC32D7.30219.3331ED7E@localhost>; from sieler@allegro.com on Thu, Oct 04, 2001 at 09:58:47AM -0700 References: <20011004121109.A26565@mail.er-grp.com> <3BBC32D7.30219.3331ED7E@localhost> Message-ID: <20011005134854.A13056@mail.er-grp.com> On Thu, Oct 04, 2001 at 09:58:47AM -0700, Stan Sieler wrote: > >Note: although the cost is shown as $0.00, there's no "buy", just a "try" button. > The "try" button takes you to a page where you can download the "software" that > gives you unlimited users, but you have to check a box saying you read various > agreements...one of which states that this is a 30 day demo. Yeah, I noticed. I'm sort of hoping for it to be a minor glitch. I haven't installed the depot yet. > > Oh yes, the software might not be 10 years old, but some of the hardware it > runs on is :) That's true :). I'm sort of doubting that about the H50 because it's just so fast (well, 96MHz) but the memory helps out a lot. The CPU is a pain in the back to carry though. Nearly broke my back when carrying it up the stairs. Nearly as bad as mounting a VAX 8350 on the rack slides by yourself. -- jht From optimus at canit.se Thu Oct 4 22:54:30 2001 From: optimus at canit.se (Iggy Drougge) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:29 2005 Subject: IBM ROM BASIC or lack thereof In-Reply-To: <200110050050.RAA09628@stockholm.ptloma.edu> Message-ID: <1046.678T1500T2944717optimus@canit.se> Cameron Kaiser skrev: >> > > But Glen, that's why there are Macs. >> >I very much hope you aren't implying that Mac users don't know what's >> >going on with their machines. >> They don't, and they're not supposed to. >I find this remark ill-informed at best. I definitely know what's going >on inside my 7300, my Mac Plus, my Apple Network Server and my farm of IIcis, >and there are also plenty of DIY-Mac upgraders on the LowEndMac lists. Macs >aren't 'mysterious beige boxes' even if they do have fewer upgrade options in >some respects. Of course you do, I've never doubted that. But the average Mac user is not at all interested in the inner workings of their computer. Besides, I never said anything about the knowledge of Mac users, I was referring to the intended audience for Macs, namely "the rest of us" (or the rest of the world, seen from this list's perspective). Sorry if I'm a bit incoherent, I'm 1 m from collapsing into bed. -- En ligne avec Thor 2.6a. MUSIK G?R MAN AV PLAST OCH KISEL! TR?D ANV?NDER MAN TILL M?BLER! From lance at costanzo.net Fri Oct 5 06:55:48 2001 From: lance at costanzo.net (Lance Costanzo) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:29 2005 Subject: HP 9000/847S Message-ID: <3.0.32.20011005045547.007f5830@costanzo.net> >That's true :). I'm sort of doubting that about the H50 because it's just so >fast (well, 96MHz) but the memory helps out a lot. The CPU is a pain in the >back to carry though. Nearly broke my back when carrying it up the stairs. Pull the power supplies and disk cages next time. From jarkko.teppo at er-grp.com Fri Oct 5 07:55:39 2001 From: jarkko.teppo at er-grp.com (Jarkko Teppo) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:29 2005 Subject: HP 9000/847S In-Reply-To: <3.0.32.20011005045547.007f5830@costanzo.net> References: <3.0.32.20011005045547.007f5830@costanzo.net> Message-ID: <63053.62.148.198.97.1002286539.squirrel@mail.er-grp.com> >>Nearly broke my back when carrying it >>up the stairs. > Pull the power supplies and disk cages next time. No thanks, I consider it "work-out". Could be a part of classiccmp-olympics: 1) H50 up-the-stairs-and-back (also possible as a relay event) 2) downhill racing inside full-size rack cabinets 3) Fix the PDP relay-event (again). Each team member gets two minutes, one (1) leaflet of the schematics and one (1) tool. Dropping the screwdriver on fully loaded UNIBUS power distribution tracks leads to disqualification. I'll shut up now. -- jht From jott at mastif.ee.nd.edu Fri Oct 5 08:10:52 2001 From: jott at mastif.ee.nd.edu (John Ott) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:29 2005 Subject: Semi OT: Radio Shack Armatron & May '85 issue of Radio-Electronics In-Reply-To: <44E51E0E.753DC9E0.CF1A260E@netscape.net>; from knightstalkerbob@netscape.net on Wed, Oct 03, 2001 at 04:34:08PM -0400 References: <44E51E0E.753DC9E0.CF1A260E@netscape.net> Message-ID: <20011005081052.G4056@mastif> Hello - Files 1, 4 and 5 worked using xv on a Sun Solaris machine. John On Wed, Oct 03, 2001 at 04:34:08PM -0400, Bob Mason wrote: > Greets, > > arm6.tif.1 worked this time, but 2 & 3 still show "Not a valid TIFF" in Paint Shop Pro. > > Bob Mason > > > "Sean 'Captain Napalm' Conner" wrote: > > >It was thus said that the Great Mike once stated: > >> > >> From: Chris > >> > Can you get pic 2,3 or 6 to open? I can't get them to work (your > >> > >> OK, I reuploaded 2,3, and 6 to the same spot. Try them again at: > >> > >> http://personal.lig.bellsouth.net/lig/d/o/dogas/arm2.tif > >> http://personal.lig.bellsouth.net/lig/d/o/dogas/arm3.tif > >> http://personal.lig.bellsouth.net/lig/d/o/dogas/arm6.tif > > > > I just resnagged them and you can view them at > > > > http://www.flummux.org/radio/ > > > > The original ones I snagged earlier are still there under the original > >name, while the new ones have a `.1' extention. If someone can test them > >and get back to me, I would appreciate it. > > > > -spc (They are different, even if they are the same file size ... ) > > > > > -- > Bob Mason > > 2x Amiga 500's, GVP A530 (40mhz 68030/68882, 8meg Fast, SCSI), 1.3/3.1, 2meg Chip, full ECS chipset, EZ135, 1084S, big harddrives, 2.2xCD > Gateway Performance 500 Piece 'o Crap, 'ME, 128meg, 20Gig, flatbed. > Heathkit H-89A, 64K RAM, hard and soft-sectored floppies, SigmaSoft and Systems 256K RAM Drive/Print Spooler/Graphics board HDOS 2 & CP/M 2.2.03/2.2.04 > > > > > > > > > > > > > > __________________________________________________________________ > Your favorite stores, helpful shopping tools and great gift ideas. Experience the convenience of buying online with Shop@Netscape! http://shopnow.netscape.com/ > > Get your own FREE, personal Netscape Mail account today at http://webmail.netscape.com/ > -- ************************************************************************ * * * * John Ott * Email: jott@hamming.ee.nd.edu * * Dept. Electrical Engineering * * * 275 Fitzpatrick Hall * * * University of Notre Dame * Phone: (219) 631-7752 * * Notre Dame, IN 46556 USA * Fax: (219) 631-9924 * * * * ************************************************************************ From Robert_Feldman at jdedwards.com Fri Oct 5 08:05:54 2001 From: Robert_Feldman at jdedwards.com (Feldman, Robert) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:29 2005 Subject: OT: Archaeological restorations (was RE: Restoring classic kits w e built way-back-when) Message-ID: On topic: Leave your old hardware the way it is, for historical reference. Off topic: Coins are so boring ;) (though they last and are dated; I admit I have used them myself, though). When I backfilled my excavations of a 3000 BC temple mound on the Peruvian coast, I put a basket-full of old shoes in first (the site was being used as the modern town's garbage dump). In another case, I dumped a load of washed and sorted shells in a pit at a village site, and put in a dated newspaper page. A few years later, another group re-excavated at the village, found the shells, but thought the newspaper was intrusive (there is a lot of site looting in Peru) until they happened to mention to me the "cache" of shells they found, whereupon I told them what had happened. -----Original Message----- From: Ethan Dicks [mailto:erd_6502@yahoo.com] Sent: Thursday, October 04, 2001 10:17 PM To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org Subject: Restoring classic kits we built way-back-when Specifically, I have several things that I made when I was a teenager. I'm debating re-soldering these items I took history and archaeology in school; When my advisor restored the bed of a large monochrome mosaic near Isthmia, he threw several modern coins into the concrete bed so that future excavators would know that it wasn't ancient concrete. -ethan From ncherry at home.com Fri Oct 5 08:25:15 2001 From: ncherry at home.com (Neil Cherry) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:29 2005 Subject: Z80 or 68K Xinu source? References: <3.0.5.32.20011004232510.00b1ba50@ubanproductions.com> Message-ID: <3BBDB4BB.A1610BC0@home.com> Tom Uban wrote: > > Neil, > > There are numerous versions of Xinu (v6-v8) and there are a number of > target processors. The matrix of the two are not complete, but I have > some of them. The earlier versions do not have full network support, > but the later ones do. I have an early 68k version and some later x86 > versions. There are also pdp11 versions. Let me know what you are > looking for. So far I've grabbed a PC version, a 8096 version, a TI-92 version and a Dec Station 3100. I'd love to see the 68K version (but not the Sun version) and really need the Z80 version. It doesn't matter if it has the networking. Thanks -- Linux Home Automation Neil Cherry ncherry@home.net http://members.home.net/ncherry (Text only) http://linuxha.sourceforge.net/ (SourceForge) http://hcs.sourceforge.net/ (HCS II) From lance at costanzo.net Fri Oct 5 09:01:43 2001 From: lance at costanzo.net (Lance Costanzo) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:29 2005 Subject: HP 9000/847S Message-ID: <3.0.32.20011005070142.0083bdc0@costanzo.net> don't forget the 286 pile event. a team gets 1 minute to throw 286's at least 10 feet and create the tallest pile. they took all the fun out of the mac toss. with those built in handles on the imac, its just too easy to score a "swish" into the dumpster at 50 paces. At 03:55 PM 10/5/01 +0300, you wrote: >>>Nearly broke my back when carrying it >>>up the stairs. >> Pull the power supplies and disk cages next time. > >No thanks, I consider it "work-out". Could be a part of classiccmp-olympics: >1) H50 up-the-stairs-and-back (also possible as a relay event) >2) downhill racing inside full-size rack cabinets >3) Fix the PDP relay-event (again). Each team member gets two minutes, > one (1) leaflet of the schematics and one (1) tool. Dropping the > screwdriver on fully loaded UNIBUS power distribution tracks leads > to disqualification. > >I'll shut up now. >-- >jht > > > From vance at ikickass.org Fri Oct 5 09:32:25 2001 From: vance at ikickass.org (Absurdly Obtuse) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:29 2005 Subject: AIX Message-ID: Hi. Anyone have AIX 1.x disks for PS/2 around anywhere? Peace... Sridhar From philpem at bigfoot.com Fri Oct 5 10:38:11 2001 From: philpem at bigfoot.com (Philip Pemberton) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:29 2005 Subject: 6502 BASIC or Assembler and Intel 8271/WDC 1770 info req'd Message-ID: <002001c14db3$bdfddbe0$577b7ad5@phoenix> Hi, I'm building myself a 6502-based single-board computer, with the aim of running it off a 4.8V NiMH or NiCad battery pack. But I've got a problem. I need a programming language for it. Aparrently there were many BASIC interpreters sold for the Synertek SYM-1 (aka SY-VIM-1), MOS KIM-1 and Rockwell AIM-65. Anyone know what happened to the companies that produced these? Ideally I'd like the source code for a 6502 BASIC interpreter, but binary code would be OK too. The SBC will communicate via a small LCD panel, RS232 (so I can hook it up to a "dumb terminal") and will have a hexadecimal keypad and an optional hard drive, too. Anyone care to make any suggestions (or submit some code)? BTW, I also need some info on the Intel 8271 disk controller - I've got two of these little devils and Intel's datasheet makes absolutely no sense at all. I've also got a Western Digital WD1770-PH 00-02 that I might be able to use instead. First of all, which is the better controller? The 8271 or the 1770? Also, is it possible to overclock a 1770 or an 8271 like you can a 1772? I'd love some schematics and/or some source code. I really don't fancy disassembling Acorn's 8271 DFS and Watford Electronics' 1770 DFS... Thanks. -- Phil. philpem@bigfoot.com http://www.philpem.f9.co.uk/ From vcf at vintage.org Fri Oct 5 11:17:03 2001 From: vcf at vintage.org (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:29 2005 Subject: Book on Silicon Valley Message-ID: A book that the VCF and many computer collectors prominently figure in is coming out on November 1. It's called _Artifacts: An Archaeologist's Year in Silicon Valley_ by Christine Finn. Those of you who have been to a VCF in the past year and a half will recognize her as a recurring speaker. A website has been established for the book at: http://www.artifactsthebook.com/ Tonight is Christine's first book reading at a bookstore in Menlo Park, California. If you are a local and would like to attend, the information is posted to the website above. Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org From korpela at ssl.berkeley.edu Fri Oct 5 11:19:42 2001 From: korpela at ssl.berkeley.edu (Eric J. Korpela) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:29 2005 Subject: Z80 or 68K Xinu source? In-Reply-To: <3BBDB4BB.A1610BC0@home.com> from Neil Cherry at "Oct 5, 2001 09:25:15 am" Message-ID: <200110051619.f95GJgJ13424@jill.ssl.berkeley.edu> If you're not wedded to Xinu, you might want to check out UZI, a Z80 port of Unix v7. As of a couple years ago there was active development of the Z280 version (UZI280) and the MSX version (USIX), both of which supported memory management hardware. Eric From healyzh at aracnet.com Fri Oct 5 11:32:23 2001 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:29 2005 Subject: TECO manuals In-Reply-To: <20011004225117.B24045@eskimo.eskimo.com> References: <01K916DA2HYA96W3FQ@cc.usu.edu>; from IVIE@cc.usu.edu on Tue, Oct 02, 2001 at 04:45:11PM -0600 <01K916DA2HYA96W3FQ@cc.usu.edu> Message-ID: >Actually > >http://www.ibiblio.org/pub/academic/computer-science/history/pdp-11/teco/doc/te >co.doc > >is DEC's "Standard TECO" manual -- unlike their other application manuals >(which cover the app. as part of the OS) this one is mostly OS-independent, >with the OS-dependent stuff in the back. Wow! So it is, that's what I get for assuming it was PDP-11 specific. I should have suspected as much given the pocket guide I've got is for the PDP-8, -10, and -11. I'm going to try and get the pocket guide scanned in the next time I have the scanner hooked up. Zane -- | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator | | healyzh@aracnet.com (primary) | OpenVMS Enthusiast | | | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | PDP-10 Emulation and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | From red at bears.org Fri Oct 5 11:36:54 2001 From: red at bears.org (r. 'bear' stricklin) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:29 2005 Subject: AIX In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Fri, 5 Oct 2001, Absurdly Obtuse wrote: > Hi. Anyone have AIX 1.x disks for PS/2 around anywhere? Yes. Why? ok r. From allain at panix.com Fri Oct 5 12:06:40 2001 From: allain at panix.com (John Allain) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:29 2005 Subject: Book on Silicon Valley References: Message-ID: <001401c14dc0$1a5ac360$8a0101ac@ibm23xhr06> > A website has been established for the book at: > http://www.artifactsthebook.com/ Do you have an IP? The name isn't registered out here yet. John A. From brian at quarterbyte.com Fri Oct 5 12:25:11 2001 From: brian at quarterbyte.com (Brian Knittel) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:29 2005 Subject: need some advice on some VAX boards ... In-Reply-To: <200110051316.IAA34359@opal.tseinc.com> Message-ID: <3BBD8A87.30533.77BFCC@localhost> > I believe the first voice-coil drvie in that family was the ST-4096, > but I'm not positive of that. That was one nice drive. A nice drive? You must have gotten the one that worked. I ran into 5 or 6 of them, and after a couple of months, every one of them failed, as did their warranty replacements. I only found one that ended up being useful for several years (as a door stop). They sounded like chain saws. brian =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- _| _| _| Brian Knittel / Quarterbyte Systems, Inc. _| _| _| Tel: 1-510-559-7930 Fax: 1-510-525-6889 _| _| _| Email: brian@quarterbyte.com _| _| _| http://www.quarterbyte.com From zaft at azstarnet.com Fri Oct 5 12:36:58 2001 From: zaft at azstarnet.com (Gordon Zaft) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:29 2005 Subject: 6502 BASIC or Assembler and Intel 8271/WDC 1770 info req'd In-Reply-To: <002001c14db3$bdfddbe0$577b7ad5@phoenix> Message-ID: <4.3.2.7.2.20011005103640.02025b08@mail.azstarnet.com> Check out www.6502.org ! At 04:38 PM 10/5/2001 +0100, you wrote: >Hi, > I'm building myself a 6502-based single-board computer, with the aim of >running it off a 4.8V NiMH or NiCad battery pack. But I've got a problem. I >need a programming language for it. Aparrently there were many BASIC >interpreters sold for the Synertek SYM-1 (aka SY-VIM-1), MOS KIM-1 and >Rockwell AIM-65. Anyone know what happened to the companies that produced >these? Ideally I'd like the source code for a 6502 BASIC interpreter, but >binary code would be OK too. The SBC will communicate via a small LCD panel, >RS232 (so I can hook it up to a "dumb terminal") and will have a hexadecimal >keypad and an optional hard drive, too. Anyone care to make any suggestions >(or submit some code)? > >BTW, I also need some info on the Intel 8271 disk controller - I've got two >of these little devils and Intel's datasheet makes absolutely no sense at >all. I've also got a Western Digital WD1770-PH 00-02 that I might be able to >use instead. First of all, which is the better controller? The 8271 or the >1770? Also, is it possible to overclock a 1770 or an 8271 like you can a >1772? >I'd love some schematics and/or some source code. I really don't fancy >disassembling Acorn's 8271 DFS and Watford Electronics' 1770 DFS... > >Thanks. >-- >Phil. >philpem@bigfoot.com >http://www.philpem.f9.co.uk/ From mcguire at neurotica.com Fri Oct 5 12:37:08 2001 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:29 2005 Subject: need some advice on some VAX boards ... In-Reply-To: Re: need some advice on some VAX boards ... (Brian Knittel) References: <200110051316.IAA34359@opal.tseinc.com> <3BBD8A87.30533.77BFCC@localhost> Message-ID: <15293.61380.631037.37284@phaduka.neurotica.com> On October 5, Brian Knittel wrote: > > I believe the first voice-coil drvie in that family was the ST-4096, > > but I'm not positive of that. That was one nice drive. > > A nice drive? You must have gotten the one that worked. I ran > into 5 or 6 of them, and after a couple of months, every one of > them failed, as did their warranty replacements. I only found > one that ended up being useful for several years (as a door stop). > > They sounded like chain saws. Hmm, interesting. I installed about two dozen of them in customer machines with no problems. They were all relatively close together time-wise; I suppose I got lucky and scored a batch from a good production run. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Laurel, MD From foo at siconic.com Fri Oct 5 13:41:31 2001 From: foo at siconic.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:29 2005 Subject: Book on Silicon Valley In-Reply-To: <001401c14dc0$1a5ac360$8a0101ac@ibm23xhr06> Message-ID: On Fri, 5 Oct 2001, John Allain wrote: > > A website has been established for the book at: > > http://www.artifactsthebook.com/ > > Do you have an IP? The name isn't registered out here yet. DNS problems. I'll have to talk to my DNS administrator :( Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org From foo at siconic.com Fri Oct 5 13:42:03 2001 From: foo at siconic.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:30 2005 Subject: Book on Silicon Valley In-Reply-To: <001401c14dc0$1a5ac360$8a0101ac@ibm23xhr06> Message-ID: On Fri, 5 Oct 2001, John Allain wrote: > > A website has been established for the book at: > > http://www.artifactsthebook.com/ > > Do you have an IP? The name isn't registered out here yet. P.S. to last message: an IP address won't help since the Artifacts website is an alias on my VCF web server. Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org From Lee.Davison at merlincommunications.com Fri Oct 5 12:11:53 2001 From: Lee.Davison at merlincommunications.com (Davison, Lee) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:30 2005 Subject: 6502 BASIC or Assembler and Intel 8271/WDC 1770 info req'd Message-ID: <707AA588EE28D311BCD50090276D7D0002146DD0@BUSH02> Ideally I'd like the source code for a 6502 BASIC interpreter, but binary code would be OK too. Phil, go see http://www.geocities.com/leeedavison/ . You'll find what you want there. Lee. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- ---- This email is intended only for the above named addressee(s). The information contained in this email may contain information which is confidential. The views expressed in this email are personal to the sender and do not in any way reflect the views of the company. If you have received this email and you are not a named addressee please delete it from your system and contact Merlin Communications International IT Department on +44 20 7344 5888. _____________________________________________________________________ This message has been checked for all known viruses by Star Internet delivered through the MessageLabs Virus Scanning Service. For further information visit http://www.star.net.uk/stats.asp or alternatively call Star Internet for details on the Virus Scanning Service. From mtapley at swri.edu Fri Oct 5 14:33:01 2001 From: mtapley at swri.edu (Mark Tapley) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:30 2005 Subject: Restoring classic kits we built way-back-when Message-ID: Ethan Dicks wrote: >one aspect of classic kit building I have a question for the group >about is, what about stuff that we built ourselves 10+ years ago that >still works, but might need some touch-up. If the solder joint in question meets the following criteria: a) bad enough that fail-open is a credible risk b) in a pathway such that fail-open could cause damage to other components (particularly hard-to-replace ones) I'd say it should be retouched. In any other case, I'd say that the risk of damage, plus the loss of historical value, are convincing arguments to leave it alone. Bottom line, though, is that they are your kits, and whatever you want to do with them is Ok. Good question, though. - Mark From optimus at canit.se Fri Oct 5 07:23:37 2001 From: optimus at canit.se (Iggy Drougge) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:30 2005 Subject: Scrapping Tektronix 4695 (was Re: Scrapping LA100 & Diablo printers) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <384.678T1850T8035491optimus@canit.se> Sellam Ismail skrev: >On 5 Oct 2001, Iggy Drougge wrote: >> Thanks to a stroke of luck at the salvation army, I recently got hold of >> just >There are Salvation Army stores in Sweden?? Yes, though they go by the name Myrorna (Ants). Why? >(Or where ever the hell it is you are from...) No, Hell's in Norway. -- En ligne avec Thor 2.6a. Hackers do it with fewer instructions. From optimus at canit.se Fri Oct 5 07:18:41 2001 From: optimus at canit.se (Iggy Drougge) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:30 2005 Subject: Osborne OCC1 In-Reply-To: <20011005042431.TKBY6797.imf06bis.bellsouth.net@thegoodw> Message-ID: <499.678T2050T7986151optimus@canit.se> Glen Goodwin skrev: >> One of mine has a MODEM but I've never tried to use it. Does anyone >> still support 1200 baud? >The ZX-TEAM Mailbox supports 300-14400 baud ;>) Won't just about every modem talk to slower ones? I only started with modeming at 2400 bps, and that was just because my USR Courier dual standard (V32" /and/ HST! =) was uncooperative. -- En ligne avec Thor 2.6a. Schont die Sockel, wenn ihr die Denkm?ler st?rzt. Sie k?nnten noch gebraucht werden. --- Stanislaw Jerzy Lec From optimus at canit.se Fri Oct 5 07:12:59 2001 From: optimus at canit.se (Iggy Drougge) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:30 2005 Subject: Restoring classic kits we built way-back-when In-Reply-To: <20011005031722.68043.qmail@web20101.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <2238.678T2950T7926839optimus@canit.se> Ethan Dicks skrev: >We've had the ongoing debate of "build a ZX-81 kit or leave it in the box", >but one aspect of classic kit building I have a question for the group >about is, what about stuff that we built ourselves 10+ years ago that >still works, but might need some touch-up. Specifically, I have several >things (a TVT-6, a Cosmac Elf, a homemade arcade button panel for playing >Space Invaders on a PET, a 2-char LED display for the PET, etc.) that >I made when I was a teenager. They still work, so it's not a question of >repair. It's an aesthetic thing - my soldering skills were much poorer >when I was 13. I'm debating re-soldering these items (and risking breaking >them) or leaving them the way they are a) because if it works, don't >screw with it, and b) it's a snapshot of my own context in the greater >historical framework. Depends on whether you need it or not. As long as people live in an ancient building, I'd never blame them for modifying it in any way to suit their needs. Tools are IMO tools and should be treated as such as long as they remain tools. If you regard it as but an artefact, let it remain as it is. I have a similar dilemma with my Amiga 1200. I've never opened it up once, the only time the lock's been of was when I got a hard drive, and then it was installed by a service technician with a new guarantee seal put in. Now, the 80 MB HD has been feeling awfully cramped for the last five years or so, and I've got bigger drives laying around, waiting to be installed somewhere, but I still feel bad about breaking the seal. Since I don't use the 1200 much, it'll probably remain in its 1994 state, but since there are nice PCI upgrade boards, it could serve a purpose yet again, though I think I'd rather get another machine for such purposes. A full slaughter of my old workhorse seems a bit cruel, even if it's all a continuous development. But if people actually use a piece of hardware, they have my blessing to do just about anything with it. -- En ligne avec Thor 2.6a. Die Zeit kommt aus der Zukunft, die nicht existiert, in die Gegenwart, die keine Dauer hat, und geht in die Vergangenheit, die aufgeh?rt hat, zu bestehen. --- Augustinus (R?m. Kirchenlehrer, 354-430 n. Chr.) From DAW at yalepress3.unipress.yale.edu Fri Oct 5 15:48:39 2001 From: DAW at yalepress3.unipress.yale.edu (David Woyciesjes) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:30 2005 Subject: Oddball memory (?) sticks.... Message-ID: <9011A52E011ED311B4280004AC1BA6150146713F@yalepress3.unipress.yale.edu> Another 'whats-it' question here. I have two kinds of, what look like 72-pin memory... The first is only 64 pin, has 8 chips (AAA1M300J-08 NMBS 9122), with an empty spot for a 9th chip. Printed on the back - "1X964P A (in a circle) 9115". Apparently made by Microtech. My guess is it's 1MB non-parity memory, but I don't know what uses 64 pin memory sticks. I have 4 of these sticks. The second is 68 pin, 2 chip memory. Printed on the back, they're made in 1994, in the USA, by Cubig Inc. Model number (I think) of VM512K. 512KB memory sticks? Have 3 of them... Anyone have an idea what these are, and what they're for? --- David A Woyciesjes --- C & IS Support Specialist --- Yale University Press --- mailto:david.woyciesjes@yale.edu --- (203) 432-0953 --- ICQ # - 905818 From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Fri Oct 5 18:04:16 2001 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (ajp166) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:30 2005 Subject: 6502 BASIC or Assembler and Intel 8271/WDC 1770 info req'd Message-ID: <006e01c14df2$44c83380$3df19a8d@ajp166> The 8271 is a poor choice as it does not do MFM (double density). Either use 8272 or the 1770 you have. The 1770 does not overclock reliably. Allison -----Original Message----- From: Philip Pemberton To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org Date: Friday, October 05, 2001 12:20 PM Subject: 6502 BASIC or Assembler and Intel 8271/WDC 1770 info req'd >Hi, > I'm building myself a 6502-based single-board computer, with the aim of >running it off a 4.8V NiMH or NiCad battery pack. But I've got a problem. I >need a programming language for it. Aparrently there were many BASIC >interpreters sold for the Synertek SYM-1 (aka SY-VIM-1), MOS KIM-1 and >Rockwell AIM-65. Anyone know what happened to the companies that produced >these? Ideally I'd like the source code for a 6502 BASIC interpreter, but >binary code would be OK too. The SBC will communicate via a small LCD panel, >RS232 (so I can hook it up to a "dumb terminal") and will have a hexadecimal >keypad and an optional hard drive, too. Anyone care to make any suggestions >(or submit some code)? > >BTW, I also need some info on the Intel 8271 disk controller - I've got two >of these little devils and Intel's datasheet makes absolutely no sense at >all. I've also got a Western Digital WD1770-PH 00-02 that I might be able to >use instead. First of all, which is the better controller? The 8271 or the >1770? Also, is it possible to overclock a 1770 or an 8271 like you can a >1772? >I'd love some schematics and/or some source code. I really don't fancy >disassembling Acorn's 8271 DFS and Watford Electronics' 1770 DFS... > >Thanks. >-- >Phil. >philpem@bigfoot.com >http://www.philpem.f9.co.uk/ > From optimus at canit.se Fri Oct 5 20:00:56 2001 From: optimus at canit.se (Iggy Drougge) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:30 2005 Subject: Oddball memory (?) sticks.... In-Reply-To: <9011A52E011ED311B4280004AC1BA6150146713F@yalepress3.unipress.yale.edu> Message-ID: <998.679T2800T1206849optimus@canit.se> David Woyciesjes skrev: >Another 'whats-it' question here. I have two kinds of, what look like 72-pin >memory... > The first is only 64 pin, has 8 chips (AAA1M300J-08 NMBS 9122), >with an empty spot for a 9th chip. Printed on the back - "1X964P A (in a >circle) 9115". Apparently made by Microtech. My guess is it's 1MB non-parity >memory, but I don't know what uses 64 pin memory sticks. I have 4 of these >sticks. I know of three machines which use 64-pin SIMMs: GVP Amiga accelerators, Mac IIfx and certain AST 486es. Possibly some Apple laser printers, too. > The second is 68 pin, 2 chip memory. Printed on the back, they're >made in 1994, in the USA, by Cubig Inc. Model number (I think) of VM512K. >512KB memory sticks? Have 3 of them... > Anyone have an idea what these are, and what they're for? Mac VRAM SIMMs. -- En ligne avec Thor 2.6a. Och har du en TV utan Scart, vilket nittionio procent faktiskt har, kommer de f?rmodligen att ringa fr?n Antikrundan. Martin Timell From cfandt at netsync.net Fri Oct 5 19:35:33 2001 From: cfandt at netsync.net (Christian Fandt) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:30 2005 Subject: Paging Will Jennings Message-ID: <4.1.20011005202517.00b60610@206.231.8.2> Will, I've tried a couple of times to contact you by email regarding whether you intend on obtaining the remaining DEC gear I still have. Didn't bounce back but I figure maybe Hotmail doesn't notify senders of non-delivery. Anyway, could you get back to me ASAP with your intentions on this stuff? I must move on this soon as I need the space very much. Apologies to the list for using the bandwidth. -Chris -- -- Christian Fandt, Electronic/Electrical Historian Jamestown, NY USA cfandt@netsync.net Member of Antique Wireless Association URL: http://www.antiquewireless.org/ From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Oct 5 18:46:32 2001 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:30 2005 Subject: Osborne OCC1 In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.32.20011004223045.007b5420@mailhost.intellistar.net> from "Joe" at Oct 4, 1 10:30:45 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1388 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20011006/d3d0f6fe/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Oct 5 18:52:44 2001 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:30 2005 Subject: IBM ROM BASIC or lack thereof In-Reply-To: <1381.678T1950T2145483optimus@canit.se> from "Iggy Drougge" at Oct 5, 1 03:34:39 am Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1903 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20011006/2a31d95f/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Oct 5 19:08:31 2001 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:30 2005 Subject: IBM ROM BASIC or lack thereof In-Reply-To: from "gwynp@artware.qc.ca" at Oct 4, 1 11:37:24 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1499 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20011006/bd255ad3/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Oct 5 18:58:09 2001 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:30 2005 Subject: Is there a source for veroboard in the U.S.? In-Reply-To: <20011005030408.43578.qmail@web20104.mail.yahoo.com> from "Ethan Dicks" at Oct 4, 1 08:04:08 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1475 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20011006/de66fccc/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Oct 5 18:41:49 2001 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:30 2005 Subject: IBM ROM BASIC or lack thereof In-Reply-To: <2149.678T2350T2085883optimus@canit.se> from "Iggy Drougge" at Oct 5, 1 03:28:47 am Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1177 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20011006/5d97aa18/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Oct 5 19:03:44 2001 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:30 2005 Subject: Restoring classic kits we built way-back-when In-Reply-To: <20011005031722.68043.qmail@web20101.mail.yahoo.com> from "Ethan Dicks" at Oct 4, 1 08:17:22 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1858 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20011006/518e2c70/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Oct 5 19:25:28 2001 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:30 2005 Subject: 6502 BASIC or Assembler and Intel 8271/WDC 1770 info req'd In-Reply-To: <002001c14db3$bdfddbe0$577b7ad5@phoenix> from "Philip Pemberton" at Oct 5, 1 04:38:11 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1073 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20011006/3e21010c/attachment.ksh From louiss at gate.net Fri Oct 5 20:48:29 2001 From: louiss at gate.net (Louis Schulman) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:30 2005 Subject: Is there a source for veroboard in the U.S.? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <200110060148.VAA28861@smtp10.atl.mindspring.net> On Sat, 6 Oct 2001 00:58:09 +0100 (BST), Tony Duell wrote: # #Veroboard is (used to be?) a trade name used by BICC-Vero. The generic #name for what you are looking for is 'Stripboard' # #It must be available in the States. I thought the common brand for #prototyping boards over there was 'Vector'. Surely they must do something #similar. Indeed, Vector still makes "Vectorbords". They also make boards with various bus edge connectors called "Plugbords". The problem with these things is that they are very expensive, imho. For example, a prototyping board for the XT bus with edge connectors and nothing more is about $25. This raises a question I have had for some time. What DO people use to make prototype boards with edge connectors as an alternative to Plugbords? I ran into this very problem recently in trying to create a prototype ROM Pac for the Exidy Sorcerer. Other than buying Plugbords or etching a PCB, the only solution I saw was cutting up an old card and gluing the edge connectors to a prototype board. Other suggestions? Louis From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Fri Oct 5 20:39:56 2001 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (ajp166) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:30 2005 Subject: IBM ROM BASIC or lack thereof Message-ID: <008101c14e09$5b2a8530$3df19a8d@ajp166> From: Tony Duell >> Well, you must be the only person on this list who has got a sufficient amount >> of TTL chips available to repair any trivial function in your PC but not the > >That's a very worryign statement about the people on this list (not that >I believe it). Am I the only person still to _make_ things :-) Well for certain I have gobs of TTL for said reapirs and I do make things. Those things range from full blown systems down to SSB and CW transceivers for HF and VHF radio. >It's not easier for me. I have to go to get the replacement card, which >would take me a lot longer than actually changing the faulty component... :) Not the only one. Allison From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Oct 5 20:42:15 2001 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:30 2005 Subject: Is there a source for veroboard in the U.S.? In-Reply-To: <200110060148.VAA28861@smtp10.atl.mindspring.net> from "Louis Schulman" at Oct 5, 1 09:48:29 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1414 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20011006/34a3cab1/attachment.ksh From Diff at Mac.com Fri Oct 5 21:31:12 2001 From: Diff at Mac.com (Zach Malone) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:30 2005 Subject: HP 9000/847S References: <3.0.32.20011005070142.0083bdc0@costanzo.net> Message-ID: <00cf01c14e0e$fa4c5620$6401a8c0@laboffice> > they took all the fun out of the mac toss. > with those built in handles on the imac, its > just too easy to score a "swish" into the dumpster at 50 paces. The classic Mac toss is even worse, with those tiny little machines, and the hefty handles, you can really get 'em flying. (Hmm... I'll have to try this eventually) Zach From rigdonj at intellistar.net Fri Oct 5 22:06:36 2001 From: rigdonj at intellistar.net (Joe) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:30 2005 Subject: HP 9826/9836 computer battery pack Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20011005230636.0079d990@mailhost.intellistar.net> A while back someone was asking about what the battery in the HP 9826/9836 was for. I replied that it was used for a RT clock and that if could also be used for shutting down the computer gracefully in the event of an AC power loss. Well, I finally found my manual for it. It's option # 050 and PN 98270 (cost $1515 in 1983). Now that I have the manual in hand I can give you exact answers to any questions about it. (FWIW I just picked up an 9826 that has this option in it this past weekend.) Joe From rigdonj at intellistar.net Fri Oct 5 22:09:44 2001 From: rigdonj at intellistar.net (Joe) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:30 2005 Subject: Mac Toss? Re: HP 9000/847S In-Reply-To: <00cf01c14e0e$fa4c5620$6401a8c0@laboffice> References: <3.0.32.20011005070142.0083bdc0@costanzo.net> Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20011005230944.007a69a0@mailhost.intellistar.net> At 10:31 PM 10/5/01 -0400, Zach wrote: > >> they took all the fun out of the mac toss. >> with those built in handles on the imac, its >> just too easy to score a "swish" into the dumpster at 50 paces. > >The classic Mac toss is even worse, with those tiny little machines, and the >hefty handles, you can really get 'em flying. (Hmm... I'll have to try this >eventually) > Zach Hmmm. Sounds like a good competion event for the next Central Florida Junk Fest. OK you guys, start saving up your old Macs! Joe From ndiablo at diablonet.net Fri Oct 5 22:19:37 2001 From: ndiablo at diablonet.net (ndiablo@diablonet.net) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:30 2005 Subject: IBM PowerStation 320H... Message-ID: <20011006031937.15746.qmail@diablonet.net> Hi! I just picked up an IBM PowerStation 320H from the property disposition warehouse of my friendly educational institution. It seems to be in relatively good shape with all components present, but all I could really afford was the system unit (which was only one dollar). Although the University seems to be pretty consistent with wiping the hard drives of all the machines that it disposes of, I'm still rather eager to try and power it up and see what the firmware's like, and whether or not it is ACTUALLY wiped. Since I don't have a monitor/keyboard/mouse for it, though, my only option is to try to use a serial console. Unfortunately, these machines use a really wierd 10-pin serial port. I've tried searching around on the Internet for a pinout, but to no avail. Does anyone here have any idea how I can break this out to something more standard? I think I remember reading somewhere it was rather similar to the PC-RT serial ports... Thanks for any help! --Sean Caron (root@diablonet.net) | http://www.diablonet.net From claudew at videotron.ca Fri Oct 5 23:37:21 2001 From: claudew at videotron.ca (Claude.W) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:30 2005 Subject: IBM PowerStation 320H... References: <20011006031937.15746.qmail@diablonet.net> Message-ID: <006c01c14e20$96c1fc60$0200a8c0@gamerclaude> > Hi! > > I just picked up an IBM PowerStation 320H from the property disposition Yours should be u-channel like mine. So no alternative OS besides AIX. I have had a 7012 type 320H sitting here for a few years now. 80Megs Ram, Scsi etc... The serial port is a "modu-10" connector if I am not mistaken. I had built an adapter MODU-10 to DB25 out of IDC connector and flat cable. Lookup pinout on the net. Was booting AIX 3.x or something when I got it. I was never able to re-install a new AIX on this machine. Only a few CDROM drives from Plextor and original IBM CDROM drives are supposed to boot this machine. Also maybe an IBm tape drive... Even tried with an original IBM Cdrom, never worked...perhaps my AIX media was wrong I could boot the machine with the diag floppy disks but that does not help to install a fresh AIX... Claude > warehouse of my friendly educational institution. It seems to be in relatively > good shape with all components present, but all I could really afford was the > system unit (which was only one dollar). > > Although the University seems to be pretty consistent with wiping the hard > drives of all the machines that it disposes of, I'm still rather eager to try > and power it up and see what the firmware's like, and whether or not it is > ACTUALLY wiped. Since I don't have a monitor/keyboard/mouse for it, though, > my only option is to try to use a serial console. > > Unfortunately, these machines use a really wierd 10-pin serial port. I've > tried searching around on the Internet for a pinout, but to no avail. Does > anyone here have any idea how I can break this out to something more > standard? I think I remember reading somewhere it was rather similar to the > PC-RT serial ports... > > Thanks for any help! > > --Sean Caron (root@diablonet.net) | http://www.diablonet.net From optimus at canit.se Fri Oct 5 23:49:22 2001 From: optimus at canit.se (Iggy Drougge) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:30 2005 Subject: IBM ROM BASIC or lack thereof In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <1848.679T1100T3494453optimus@canit.se> Tony Duell skrev: >> Well, you must be the only person on this list who has got a sufficient >> amount of TTL chips available to repair any trivial function in your PC but >> not the >That's a very worryign statement about the people on this list (not that >I believe it). Am I the only person still to _make_ things :-) Sooner or later, everyone in this business (and without a business account) will have to. I've taken up soldering recently. But only when I have to. Every wire I solder is a great victory to me. =) >Seriously, I do homebrew design and construction as well. So I have >components around for that. Yes, but no replacement cards? >> I agree that we're living in a strange world where replacing the entire >> card is much easier than just getting the damaged component. It's usually >> cheaper >It's not easier for me. I have to go to get the replacement card, which >would take me a lot longer than actually changing the faulty component... If it weren't for the strain it would put on my finances, I'd send you a box full of PC I/O cards. They're a lot more common than loose TTL chips in the average household. >> for me to cut up some pre-made "PC" cable and solder the right connectors >> onto it than to buy all the materials at the shop. It seems as though the >> average >I tried that a few times. Gave up when I realised the poor quality of the >connectors and cable, and the _terrible_ soldering in some of these >cables. I ended up having to resolder the already-fitted connector >anyway, so it was easier to just buy a new, good-quality connector in the >first place. But then my own soldering is terrible, so the less I'm involved, the better the result, I think. -- En ligne avec Thor 2.6a. Goto: A programming tool that exists to allow structured programmers to complain about unstructured programmers. From optimus at canit.se Fri Oct 5 21:54:15 2001 From: optimus at canit.se (Iggy Drougge) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:30 2005 Subject: IBM ROM BASIC or lack thereof In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <2000.679T750T2344711optimus@canit.se> Tony Duell skrev: >> >> seldom seen any without properly labeled ports. >> >> >Didn't we go through this a few weeks back? When some of us posted about >> >connectors found on ISA slot covers, and others guessed what they were? >> >> Yep. It seems as though a few "elite hackers" still aren't convinced, tho= >> ugh. >Are you suggesting I like unlabelled ports? Because I can assure >everybody that I much prefer proper labelling... No, I was rather referring to those who make fun of people with labelled ports. >> Speaking of quadrature and improperly labelled ports, why do HP call thei= >> r >> PS/2 mouse to HIL adapter "quadrature adapter"? The quadrature ends befor= >> e it >> even goes out of the mouse and onto the cable. >And the mouse signals on the HP-HIL cable are not quadrature ones either. Exactly. It's a serial bus. You can't get farther from quadrature. >It's not as if the adapter takes the PS2 protocol, undoes the damage, and >gives you the quadrature signals back again. No, that sounds overtly involved. >> >> Are you going to set up your computer by trial-or-error? >> >> >Well, it ensures that people who can change buffer chips will always fin= >> d >> >a job after some idiot plugs a printer cable into a DB25-S RS232 port.... >> >> IMO he wouldn't be an idiot if the port wasn't labeled as an RS-232 port. >You said 'trial and error', which I took to mean something like 'Oh look, >this cable fits that (RS232) port at one end and the back of the printer >at the other. Let's use it for that'. Exit magic smoke... Well, if ports aren't labelled, there is no real way to find out. It's all very simple if you've only every operated within the IBM PC context within the last three years or so, but we established in the last thread that there were a lot of devices which would let out magic smoke if connected to your PC just on the basis of form factors. -- En ligne avec Thor 2.6a. Amiga 4000/040 25MHz/64MB/20GB RetinaBLTZ3/VLab/FastlaneZ3/Ariadne/Toccata From optimus at canit.se Sat Oct 6 00:10:44 2001 From: optimus at canit.se (Iggy Drougge) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:30 2005 Subject: Is there a source for veroboard in the U.S.? In-Reply-To: <200110060148.VAA28861@smtp10.atl.mindspring.net> Message-ID: <1783.679T2200T3706317optimus@canit.se> Louis Schulman skrev: >On Sat, 6 Oct 2001 00:58:09 +0100 (BST), Tony Duell wrote: ># >#Veroboard is (used to be?) a trade name used by BICC-Vero. The generic >#name for what you are looking for is 'Stripboard' ># >#It must be available in the States. I thought the common brand for >#prototyping boards over there was 'Vector'. Surely they must do something >#similar. >Indeed, Vector still makes "Vectorbords". They also make boards with various >bus edge connectors called "Plugbords". The problem with these things is >that they are very expensive, imho. For example, a prototyping board for >the XT bus with edge connectors and nothing more is about $25. >This raises a question I have had for some time. What DO people use to make >prototype boards with edge connectors as an alternative to Plugbords? I ran >into this very problem recently in trying to create a prototype ROM Pac for >the Exidy Sorcerer. Other than buying Plugbords or etching a PCB, the only >solution I saw was cutting up an old card and gluing the edge connectors to >a prototype board. Other suggestions? If the traces are of the right pitch, you may just cut away any superfluous traces from a veroboard. The common pitch is 2,5 mm, I think, but in some cases, that won't work, like in the Atari ST cartridge port, which has a 2,0 mm pitch. In that case, etching seems to be the only alternative. In the case of home-brew cartridges for game consoles, going at an existing cartridge with an iron is the prevailing method. -- En ligne avec Thor 2.6a. A Spanish MSX Group "Matra" visited to this Fair. I lent Spanish stand to them. They showed and did Promotion play of SEX BOMB BUNNY. And this Game has tema song of Majingar-Z! Why they know Japanese TV animation? K. Ikeda, MSX-Print From jrasite at eoni.com Sat Oct 6 00:19:41 2001 From: jrasite at eoni.com (Jim Arnott) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:30 2005 Subject: Oddball memory (?) sticks.... References: <9011A52E011ED311B4280004AC1BA6150146713F@yalepress3.unipress.yale.edu> Message-ID: <3BBE9421.4869A18B@eoni.com> 64 pin = Mac IIfx and Personal Laserwriter 68 pin = Mac VRAM simm for example... Jim From cmurillo at emtelsa.multi.net.co Fri Oct 5 23:20:41 2001 From: cmurillo at emtelsa.multi.net.co (Carlos Murillo) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:30 2005 Subject: Restoring classic kits we built way-back-when In-Reply-To: References: <20011005031722.68043.qmail@web20101.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <3.0.2.32.20011006002041.01e06224@obregon.multi.net.co> At 01:03 AM 10/6/01 +0100, you wrote: >Hmm... I've spent so long tracing faults due to poor soldered connections >(even in commercial stuff -- heck, even in HP stuff!), that I generally >resolder any marginal connections before they start giving me trouble. >-tony I have never found any faulty soldering in HP equipment, but the most beautifully soldered stuff I have seen is in '60s vintage Tek scopes. Really. Perfectly shiny after all these years. There must be silver in there. And porcelain standoffs. And, going back to HP equipment, those gold-plated HP connectors usually keep positive contact even after several decades. carlos. -------------------------------------------------------------- Carlos E. Murillo-Sanchez carlos_murillo@nospammers.ieee.org From optimus at canit.se Sat Oct 6 02:13:24 2001 From: optimus at canit.se (Iggy Drougge) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:30 2005 Subject: Twoflower says Message-ID: <1744.679T1200T4935161optimus@canit.se> I found this brill note by Twoflower (a Triad member, I think) in a interview at http://www.c64.sk/ : CreamD: How do you feel about the party, what is your overall opinion? Twoflower: Overall it was a great party. Save for some small backlashes, like missing friends which said they would show up, it was hilariously funny to be there meeting everyone. Actually, it's kind of easy to forget how much such an event means for the social bonds of the scene, but when you're there, it really gets a good hold on you. Scene parties, no matter how small, are important for the scene, its structure, its competition and its friendship and should always be pushed for - but it's also important to remember what these meetings are about - and what they're not about. CreamD: I don't understand. What do you mean by that what they are and aren't about? Twoflower: Meetings are about the scene, the living, creative scene of which we consist. It's not about retro feelings, of nostalgia or something like that, but about creating the bonds and feelings for the scene I described above and pushing the efforts on what you can do with 8-bit computers further - not back to the 80'ies. The scene, and the parties, must first and foremost be focused on the scene, for the scene and by the scene - enough said! :-) I think that sums up my views on emulation and the "retro" trend in a very neat package. Retro is about what has been, not about what is. -- En ligne avec Thor 2.6a. VIRGO (Aug 23 - Sept 22) You are the logical type and hate disorder. This nitpicking is sickening to your friends. You are cold and unemotional and sometimes fall asleep while making love. Virgos make good bus drivers. From steven_j_robertson at hotmail.com Sat Oct 6 07:19:41 2001 From: steven_j_robertson at hotmail.com (Steve Robertson) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:30 2005 Subject: HP 9000/847S Message-ID: DOH! I was mistaken. My machine is not a 847S, it's a 840S. I'll pay good money to see someone toss one of those :-) SteveRob >The classic Mac toss is even worse, with those tiny little machines, and >the >hefty handles, you can really get 'em flying. (Hmm... I'll have to try >this >eventually) > Zach > _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp From KenzieM at sympatico.ca Sat Oct 6 08:16:49 2001 From: KenzieM at sympatico.ca (Mike Kenzie) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:30 2005 Subject: Rebuilding the PDP 11/34 (2volts?) References: Message-ID: <000501c14e69$3286c430$0101a8c0@sympatico.ca> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Tony Duell" To: Sent: Tuesday, September 18, 2001 1:39 PM Subject: Re: Hardware races > > A few questions remain. > > > > What would be the best way to test the Power supply it is currently > > off the chassis, does it need to be connected for testing? > In the 11/34 (I assume this is a 10/5" BA11-K cabinet), there's a power > distribution PCB running across the main part of the box on the bottom, > behind the backplanes. This needs to be connected to the PSU for testing, > otherwise the regulator blocks are not electrically connected to anything > (they connect via this PCB and its associated wiring). You can either > remove the PCB from the chassis or just unplug the backplane power > connectors from it (to isolate the rest of the machine from the PSU) and > refit the PSU to the back of the CPU box. > > Then, with all the plugs in the PSU, and the backplanes disconnected, > power up the machine (plug in, turn on the breaker on the back, turn on > the knob on the frontpanel). The PSU contactor should pull in and the > fans start. You can then check the PSU output voltages at the backplane > power sockets on the distribution board. Do check the voltages at every > power socket -- IIRC the +5V rail (at least) does not run across the > entire machine -- 3 of the sockets come from one regulator and the other > 2 from another regulator). Got it reassembled and turned the switch, the lights came on and the voltagages tested at +-15, +5 and one at +2v We were expecting the 15 and 5 but not the 2 is this just an artefact of testing with the unit partially disconnected? Found empty connectors on the M7891 and M8265 cards what would have attached to these? Also have a few BC11A cables for connecting the units but the main unit seems to have all the slots filled and a terminator at the end. There are several unidentified cards still remaining versatech 289 380211 with 2 teledyne philbrick 4023 10bit D/A convterers 8" morrow floppies without cables or controllers From cswiger at widomaker.com Sat Oct 6 08:36:12 2001 From: cswiger at widomaker.com (cswiger) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:30 2005 Subject: UNIVAC Core In-Reply-To: <200110061310.IAA51140@opal.tseinc.com> Message-ID: Hi Gang - long time no type. I'm just looking for any insight or experience with a Sperry + Univac core memory card 90536-7128081-00 D Looks to be a later generation core module, lots of 14 pin dips with numbers like 7427, 7438, MC7524, 7502, 7503. card itself is 10.5" tall, 15" wide with 3 connectors along the bottom, each connector has 2 rows of 28 contacts (48 * 3 contacts in all) on .1" centers. This instance is in clean condition - I'd love to build an interface to it just for a crazy fun project. Chuck cswiger@widomaker.com From KenzieM at sympatico.ca Sat Oct 6 08:42:21 2001 From: KenzieM at sympatico.ca (Mike Kenzie) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:30 2005 Subject: Oddball memory (?) sticks.... References: <998.679T2800T1206849optimus@canit.se> Message-ID: <008601c14e6d$14b1e850$0101a8c0@sympatico.ca> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Iggy Drougge" To: "David Woyciesjes" Sent: Saturday, October 06, 2001 12:00 AM Subject: Re: Oddball memory (?) sticks.... > David Woyciesjes skrev: > > >Another 'whats-it' question here. I have two kinds of, what look like 72-pin > >memory... > > The first is only 64 pin, has 8 chips (AAA1M300J-08 NMBS 9122), > >with an empty spot for a 9th chip. Printed on the back - "1X964P A (in a > >circle) 9115". Apparently made by Microtech. My guess is it's 1MB non-parity > >memory, but I don't know what uses 64 pin memory sticks. I have 4 of these > >sticks. > > I know of three machines which use 64-pin SIMMs: GVP Amiga accelerators, Mac > IIfx and certain AST 486es. Possibly some Apple laser printers, too. > > > The second is 68 pin, 2 chip memory. Printed on the back, they're > >made in 1994, in the USA, by Cubig Inc. Model number (I think) of VM512K. > >512KB memory sticks? Have 3 of them... > > > Anyone have an idea what these are, and what they're for? > > Mac VRAM SIMMs. How about 31 Pin SIMMs? From mcguire at neurotica.com Sat Oct 6 08:52:17 2001 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:30 2005 Subject: Rebuilding the PDP 11/34 (2volts?) In-Reply-To: Rebuilding the PDP 11/34 (2volts?) (Mike Kenzie) References: <000501c14e69$3286c430$0101a8c0@sympatico.ca> Message-ID: <15295.3217.153527.717777@phaduka.neurotica.com> On October 6, Mike Kenzie wrote: > Found empty connectors on the M7891 and M8265 cards what would have > attached to these? The M7891 is a memory board...I believe that connector is for factory testing but I'm not sure about that. The M8265 is one of the pdp11/34a CPU boards. The connectors on them are for the cache and FPU options. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Laurel, MD From edick at idcomm.com Sat Oct 6 09:10:12 2001 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:30 2005 Subject: 6502 BASIC or Assembler and Intel 8271/WDC 1770 info req'd References: Message-ID: <000f01c14e70$9d87a220$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> If you use the WD37C65, (available, yet today, via Rochester Electronics) though you do have to use two crystals to cover the range of needed clocks, it is designed to drive the cable directly. Dick ----- Original Message ----- From: "Tony Duell" To: Sent: Friday, October 05, 2001 6:25 PM Subject: Re: 6502 BASIC or Assembler and Intel 8271/WDC 1770 info req'd > > BTW, I also need some info on the Intel 8271 disk controller - I've got two > > I would not do a new design using the 8271. The chip is fairly hard to > find now, and there are machines that _need_ them (like the old Acorn > Systems). > > In fact, I'd probably use one of the all-in-one PC floppy controller > chips unless there was a very good reason not to. Add a crystal and > perhaps some cable driver chips. That's all... > > > of these little devils and Intel's datasheet makes absolutely no sense at > > all. I've also got a Western Digital WD1770-PH 00-02 that I might be able to > > use instead. First of all, which is the better controller? The 8271 or the > > 1770? Also, is it possible to overclock a 1770 or an 8271 like you can a > > 1772? > > Oh, use the 1770. It does double density (MFM) for one thing (the 8271 is > single-density only). It also require many fewer support circuits I > think. > > The 1770 and 1772 are closely related (the difference being the step > rates the chips can produce). I would guess that the 1770 can be > overclocked, but I've never tried it. > > -tony > > From edick at idcomm.com Sat Oct 6 09:19:28 2001 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:30 2005 Subject: Is there a source for veroboard in the U.S.? References: Message-ID: <001901c14e71$e91939a0$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> Back in the '80-'81 when I was making and selling prototyping boards, including some for the VME, BICC-VERO was a competitor while Vector, the US' main maker of hobbyist class protype boards really made no effort to compete at all. While Vector products were then, and are today, of the lowest conceivable quality and poorest design imaginable, their prices were right up with VERO and with me. Where VME was concerned, even the FAE's from MOT, Mostek, and Signetics, all of whom had their own boards to sell, were pushing my boards because of their combined low price and desirable features such as uniforom colander ground and power planes, full 0.100" matrix hole grid, and dry-film solder mask on both sides to facilitate point-to-point wiring for sensitive analog circuits. The VERO boards also offered a colander ground plane, but my boards were more available locally. AFAIK, BICC-VERO was not widely available but did have a presence in the market in the U.S. They were the only serious competitor I had, however. I don't believe they impacted my own sales much, however. I got into the wirewrap board business only because I couldn't use what others were offering, mainly because there were no useable provisions for the then-newly-popularized IDC connectors for cabling and for attachment to mezzanine boards, etc. Moreover, most of them required VERY COSTLY adapters for PGA and PLCC packaging, while my own design allowed both IDC connectors and PGA sockets to be placed nearly anywhere on the board. Dick ----- Original Message ----- From: "Tony Duell" To: Sent: Friday, October 05, 2001 5:58 PM Subject: Re: Is there a source for veroboard in the U.S.? > > > > I wanted to bang out a quick thing involving bussed lines (an LED display > > for a Dragon's Lair game, if you're curious). I thought it might be > > quick to do with veroboard as opposed to point-to-point wiring. I want > > to make a prototype before considering burning a board (since that's a > > weakness I have at the moment anyway - lack of knowledge about layout > > tools). The problem is that I haven't seen veroboard for sale in the > > States, only the U.K. and perhaps Western Europe. Here, we have > > Veroboard is (used to be?) a trade name used by BICC-Vero. The generic > name for what you are looking for is 'Stripboard' > > It must be available in the States. I thought the common brand for > prototyping boards over there was 'Vector'. Surely they must do something > similar. > > > lots of modular prototyping board, but it's not easy to use when you > > have a lot of parallel connections (like a data bus). > > > > Are there any sources on this side of the pond? If not, how much does > > a sheet of about 6"x9" cost? If it's too expensive to buy and ship, I > > Getting it that wide is going to be hard (at least over here). The > largest common sizes are designed to stand upright in a 3U card frame, so > about 4". I think 4" by 6" (approx) is a fairly common size. > > > I went to school in England in 1985 - New College, specifically, down the > > street from Blackwell's Books. I spent many hours there absorbing > > Ah,, the_other_place (sorry, couldn't resist...) :-) > > -tony > > From edick at idcomm.com Sat Oct 6 09:36:21 2001 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:30 2005 Subject: 6502 BASIC or Assembler and Intel 8271/WDC 1770 info req'd References: <002001c14db3$bdfddbe0$577b7ad5@phoenix> Message-ID: <003601c14e74$446dbd60$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> I've got 1770's and 1772s, as well as 1771's and 1793/5's yet I'd put the effort into using a WD37C65, since it requires so much less work in the hardware. It has the data/clock separator and write precomp circuitry built-in and is designed to drive the FD cables directly. It's internally a uPD765 and since there's lots of sample code for that, you should have no trouble using it. The only thing you have to do is handle the clock differences for 8", 5-/4", and 3-1/2" drives. IF you leave the 8" drives out of the equation, and I see no reason to include them, it should be dirt-simple. I may be confused about this, but wasn't the 8271 just a rebadged WD1771? If so, I do have some sample code for that in 6502 assembler. Email me off-list and I'll attach it for you. Dick ----- Original Message ----- From: "Philip Pemberton" To: Sent: Friday, October 05, 2001 9:38 AM Subject: 6502 BASIC or Assembler and Intel 8271/WDC 1770 info req'd > Hi, > I'm building myself a 6502-based single-board computer, with the aim of > running it off a 4.8V NiMH or NiCad battery pack. But I've got a problem. I > need a programming language for it. Aparrently there were many BASIC > interpreters sold for the Synertek SYM-1 (aka SY-VIM-1), MOS KIM-1 and > Rockwell AIM-65. Anyone know what happened to the companies that produced > these? Ideally I'd like the source code for a 6502 BASIC interpreter, but > binary code would be OK too. The SBC will communicate via a small LCD panel, > RS232 (so I can hook it up to a "dumb terminal") and will have a hexadecimal > keypad and an optional hard drive, too. Anyone care to make any suggestions > (or submit some code)? > > BTW, I also need some info on the Intel 8271 disk controller - I've got two > of these little devils and Intel's datasheet makes absolutely no sense at > all. I've also got a Western Digital WD1770-PH 00-02 that I might be able to > use instead. First of all, which is the better controller? The 8271 or the > 1770? Also, is it possible to overclock a 1770 or an 8271 like you can a > 1772? > I'd love some schematics and/or some source code. I really don't fancy > disassembling Acorn's 8271 DFS and Watford Electronics' 1770 DFS... > > Thanks. > -- > Phil. > philpem@bigfoot.com > http://www.philpem.f9.co.uk/ > > From KenzieM at sympatico.ca Sat Oct 6 11:41:56 2001 From: KenzieM at sympatico.ca (Mike Kenzie) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:30 2005 Subject: Oddball memory (?) sticks.... References: <998.679T2800T1206849optimus@canit.se> <008601c14e6d$14b1e850$0101a8c0@sympatico.ca> Message-ID: <000601c14e86$2a3f24d0$0101a8c0@sympatico.ca> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Mike Kenzie" To: Sent: Saturday, October 06, 2001 9:42 AM Subject: Re: Oddball memory (?) sticks.... > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Iggy Drougge" > To: "David Woyciesjes" > Sent: Saturday, October 06, 2001 12:00 AM > Subject: Re: Oddball memory (?) sticks.... > > > > David Woyciesjes skrev: > > > > >Another 'whats-it' question here. I have two kinds of, what look > like 72-pin > > >memory... > > > The first is only 64 pin, has 8 chips (AAA1M300J-08 NMBS 9122), > > >with an empty spot for a 9th chip. Printed on the back - "1X964P A > (in a > > >circle) 9115". Apparently made by Microtech. My guess is it's 1MB > non-parity > > >memory, but I don't know what uses 64 pin memory sticks. I have 4 > of these > > >sticks. > > > > I know of three machines which use 64-pin SIMMs: GVP Amiga > accelerators, Mac > > IIfx and certain AST 486es. Possibly some Apple laser printers, too. > > > > > The second is 68 pin, 2 chip memory. Printed on the back, > they're > > >made in 1994, in the USA, by Cubig Inc. Model number (I think) of > VM512K. > > >512KB memory sticks? Have 3 of them... > > > > > Anyone have an idea what these are, and what they're for? > > > > Mac VRAM SIMMs. > > How about 31 Pin SIMMs? That should be 32 pin there are 3 chips labelled 9224 W USA M14C00iJ/DJ -7 on the back is: KO-13 Pat. No. 4,m656,605 & 4,727,513 9208 From KenzieM at sympatico.ca Sat Oct 6 11:41:56 2001 From: KenzieM at sympatico.ca (Mike Kenzie) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:30 2005 Subject: Oddball memory (?) sticks.... References: <998.679T2800T1206849optimus@canit.se> <008601c14e6d$14b1e850$0101a8c0@sympatico.ca> Message-ID: <005b01c14e87$1c291350$0101a8c0@sympatico.ca> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Mike Kenzie" To: Sent: Saturday, October 06, 2001 9:42 AM Subject: Re: Oddball memory (?) sticks.... > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Iggy Drougge" > To: "David Woyciesjes" > Sent: Saturday, October 06, 2001 12:00 AM > Subject: Re: Oddball memory (?) sticks.... > > > > David Woyciesjes skrev: > > > > >Another 'whats-it' question here. I have two kinds of, what look > like 72-pin > > >memory... > > > The first is only 64 pin, has 8 chips (AAA1M300J-08 NMBS 9122), > > >with an empty spot for a 9th chip. Printed on the back - "1X964P A > (in a > > >circle) 9115". Apparently made by Microtech. My guess is it's 1MB > non-parity > > >memory, but I don't know what uses 64 pin memory sticks. I have 4 > of these > > >sticks. > > > > I know of three machines which use 64-pin SIMMs: GVP Amiga > accelerators, Mac > > IIfx and certain AST 486es. Possibly some Apple laser printers, too. > > > > > The second is 68 pin, 2 chip memory. Printed on the back, > they're > > >made in 1994, in the USA, by Cubig Inc. Model number (I think) of > VM512K. > > >512KB memory sticks? Have 3 of them... > > > > > Anyone have an idea what these are, and what they're for? > > > > Mac VRAM SIMMs. > > How about 31 Pin SIMMs? That should be 32 pin there are 3 chips labelled 9224 W USA M14C00iJ/DJ -7 on the back is: KO-13 Pat. No. 4,m656,605 & 4,727,513 9208 From lgwalker at mts.net Fri Oct 5 18:56:12 2001 From: lgwalker at mts.net (Lawrence Walker) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:30 2005 Subject: IBM ROM BASIC or lack thereof In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <3BBE024C.11463.41E518E@localhost> > Yes, providing a default ROM monitor program would be useful and > simple to implement. > > The Otrona Attache would go into terminal mode if it couldn't > boot the OS. It also provided a set of diagnostic routines > that could be run from terminal mode. > Zenith had a similar monitor program. Just hit ctrl,alt,inst IIRC. I like the PS/2s with thier MCA set-up disks for the same reason. > I agree with you that error messages should be more informative. > One problem is that they often just tell you the last of a series of > errors. "No ROM Basic" accurately describes the last "error," but it > might be more useful to the user to also know that the system got to > that point because it couldn't boot from disk. > > - Bob > > -----Original Message----- > From: ard@p850ug1.demon.co.uk [mailto:ard@p850ug1.demon.co.uk] > Sent: Wednesday, October 03, 2001 5:43 PM > To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org > Subject: Re: IBM ROM BASIC or lack thereof > > > > > I wish more manufacturers would put a program in the boot ROM that allows > reading and writing to memory, running (machine code) programs and > preferably also reading/writing I/O ports (if they're not memory mapped). > It makes debugging the machine a lot easier if it can't boot a disk (or > if you don't have a bootable disk for the machine, at least you can do > something with it. > > Tiny (or otherwise) BASIC allows one to do this. So does Forth. Or just a > little machine code monitor. With ROM space being so cheap these days > you'd have thought they could find room for something like this... > > -tony Reply to: lgwalker@mts.net From lgwalker at mts.net Fri Oct 5 18:56:12 2001 From: lgwalker at mts.net (Lawrence Walker) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:30 2005 Subject: IBM ROM BASIC or lack thereof In-Reply-To: <1252.677T2400T9076441optimus@canit.se> References: <20011004030943.96245.qmail@web11801.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <3BBE024C.11211.41E512F@localhost> >>> FLAMEBAIT WARNING<<< >>> FLAMEBAIT WARNING<<< I take it you're referring to TOS and GEM. I won't bite, there've been enough Amiga<->ST wars. And both platforms are dead ! But I can't resist one jab. I guess all those musicians who used it and loved STs were wrong. And I have an A1000, 2000, and 3000 but still have more fun on my ATARI !! I guess WIMPS can have fun. And to think you hardly got a rise out of the Apple people except for Cameron, but he's really a Commie man. Oh well you realize you're an anachronism don't you. Have you reached 30 yet ? BTW my grandparents name was Larsen. Are you sure your parentage wasn't swedish ?(So you want to start a flame-war, d'ya ? try that one) But we do have Sam Tramiel in common. Our glorius Hasbro leader. ciao (love those latins) Lorens Hmmm, Old habits are long-lasting. Could'na he'p m'sef. . > But how did you get 2048K onto a floppy? And are IBM BIOSes really that >big? Not even Amiga ROMs are that big, and the Atari fits an entire >WIMP OS into a 128 K ROM. > > -- > En ligne avec Thor 2.6a. > > Amiga: (noun) The most technologically advanced computer that hardly anyone > cares about. Use in sentence: "I wanted to buy an Amiga for its low price and > great color graphics, but everyone else seems to be using IBMs or Macintoshes. > So, to remain compatible with the rest of the world, I spent three times as much > on a Macintosh and got only half the graphics capability of an Amiga." > Reply to: lgwalker@mts.net From lgwalker at mts.net Fri Oct 5 18:56:12 2001 From: lgwalker at mts.net (Lawrence Walker) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:30 2005 Subject: IBM ROM BASIC or lack thereof In-Reply-To: References: <2149.678T2350T2085883optimus@canit.se> Message-ID: <3BBE024C.29454.41E5161@localhost> When I was taking a Digital Electronics course in the early 80s at a major Toronto tech-school, we were being taught about computers by showing the interaction of discrete components using an ET3400 and the Heathkit course. There was a big debate in the faculty regarding it's usefulness in the "modern" tech world and many were urging that students should simply be taught fault-finding and card-swapping, We know who won that debate. The IBM tech manuals are a good example. Just carry a bunch of FRU replacement modules. People like Tony are few and far between. Lawrence > > On 05-Oct-2001 Iggy Drougge wrote: > > I agree that we're living in a strange world where replacing the entire > > card is much easier than just getting the damaged component. > > Especially if you figure in the cost of labour need to find what is > broken... but then you are talking about doing it yourself. > > > > It's usually cheaper for me to cut up some pre-made "PC" cable and > > solder the right connectors onto it than to buy all the materials at > > the shop. It seems as though the average Taiwanese worker is so cheap, > > he/she's gives only a negative increase to the price of the final > > product. =/ > > Or supply and demand. How many people solder db9 connectors? Compare > that to how many people want mouse "extenders". > > -Philip Reply to: lgwalker@mts.net From edick at idcomm.com Sat Oct 6 12:33:25 2001 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:30 2005 Subject: Is there a source for veroboard in the U.S.? References: Message-ID: <001b01c14e8d$01120d00$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> The cyanide in the solutions is the least of one's worries here in the U.S. where the local authorities all seem to have the means to track down PCB-related chemistry, yet can't seem to find the methamphetimine lab's that make street drugs. It's illegal to flush them down the toilet, or otherwise introduce them in to the sanitary sewer or, for that matter, the storm sewer system. Here in Denver, the will absolutely find you if you are dumping those chemicals in the sewer system. Some fellows have taken to dumping their excess chemicals (1) directly into the river, or (2) into a public facility where they can't be found out. A really common site is the public restroom at the picnic area in the park. It allows one to carry the chemical waste into the toilet in a cooler, dump it, and then proceed without attracting attention. That's why I have my boards built overseas. One can get a manufacturer's quantity of boards from Taiwan for what a dozen prototypes cost here in the States and in 1 day plus the transit time via whatever mode of transport you're willing to pay for. In central Europe, one can apparently get boards up to 10x14", 16 layers, made for $26 in a week, plus the associated $100 or so for FedEx, with no limit on the number of via and hole sizes down under 10 mils. More boards, unfortunately, cost more per board, though I find that odd. I've considered getting a run of various prototype boards and various adapter sockets made in a single panel, and cutting them up myself once I've got the panel in hand. ... one of these days ... Dick ----- Original Message ----- From: "Tony Duell" To: Sent: Friday, October 05, 2001 7:42 PM Subject: Re: Is there a source for veroboard in the U.S.? > > Indeed, Vector still makes "Vectorbords". They also make boards with various bus edge connectors called > > "Plugbords". The problem with these things is that they are very expensive, imho. For example, a > > prototyping board for the XT bus with edge connectors and nothing more is about $25. > > Yes, the bare prototyping boards for PCs (etc) are expensive over here as > well.... A lot more expensive than ready-built (standard) cards, like > serial cards... > > > > > This raises a question I have had for some time. What DO people use to make prototype boards with edge > > connectors as an alternative to Plugbords? I ran into this very problem recently in trying to create a > > prototype ROM Pac for the Exidy Sorcerer. Other than buying Plugbords or etching a PCB, the only solution > > I saw was cutting up an old card and gluing the edge connectors to a prototype board. Other suggestions? > > You;'ve basically covereed it. If you're designing the complete machine > -- you want a cardcage of boards, but they don't have to be compatible > with anything else) then you can avoid the problem by using DIN41612 > connectors, of coruse. > > I'd not advise etching edge connector fingers yourself. You want them > gold plated, and I've never heard of that being done at home. I think the > gold plating solutions are cyanide based, which is a good reason not to > have them unless you _know_ what you are doing... > > -tony > > From avickers at solutionengineers.com Sat Oct 6 14:06:16 2001 From: avickers at solutionengineers.com (Adrian Vickers) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:31 2005 Subject: CBM8032 - wobbly screen (The saga continues) In-Reply-To: References: <5.1.0.14.0.20010928221144.00aaa2d0@192.168.1.2> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20011006195634.026c8330@192.168.1.2> Curiouser and curiouser... Today, I happened to have the machine opened up to effect some keyboard repairs (i.e. a jolly good clean up). Having successfuly removed all traces of key bounce, non-working keys, etc., and feeling justifiably please with myself, it occurred to me to try a couple of things WRT the wobbly screen. 1st attempt: "build" some shielding out of aluminium foil to go around the transformer. Which I did - all rough & ready stuff, with just a bit of insulating tape over the transformer connections to make sure they didn't short out. No effect - the screen wobbled its way along as ususal. 2nd attempt: Same as above, but this time I made absolutely sure the tin foil was earthed, by screwing it onto the chassis via one of the transformer screws. Same effect as 1st attempt: FA. 3rd attempt: Getting desparate now, I wrapped a load of tin foil around the signal cables (having removed it from the transformer). Decided to leave the lid up when I switched on and bingo! Steady as a rock (literally no movement whatsoever. Refusing to get too excited, I carefully brought the lid down (holding the signal cables so as not to let the tin foil touch the circuit board - bah! The wobble returned. 4th attempt: Removed all tinfoil, started up with the lid open, no wobble. The wobble appears progressively as the monitor approaches the transformer (the lid down position). 5th attempt: Put a sheet of tinfoil over the whole of the bottom of the monitor section. No effect - wobble remained. Clearly, therefore, the wobble is induced by the monitor. There must be a fairly monster field coming off the transformer interfering with the electron gun aiming circuit(s), or something like that. The question is: What *would* shield it? Do I need some thin steel or copper, for example? Presumably, the shielding needs to be earthed (not difficult, there's plenty of earth points around there. Or, would it be easier to simply replace the big transformer with a smaller modern one? TIA! -- Cheers, Ade. Be where it's at, B-Racing! http://b-racing.co.uk -------------- next part -------------- --- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.282 / Virus Database: 150 - Release Date: 25/09/2001 From mikeford at socal.rr.com Sat Oct 6 14:07:26 2001 From: mikeford at socal.rr.com (Mike Ford) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:31 2005 Subject: IBM ROM BASIC or lack thereof In-Reply-To: <008101c14e09$5b2a8530$3df19a8d@ajp166> Message-ID: >From: Tony Duell >>> Well, you must be the only person on this list who has got a >sufficient amount >>> of TTL chips available to repair any trivial function in your PC but >not the >> >>That's a very worryign statement about the people on this list (not that >>I believe it). Am I the only person still to _make_ things :-) There is some serious money in older chips these days. From mikeford at socal.rr.com Sat Oct 6 13:10:36 2001 From: mikeford at socal.rr.com (Mike Ford) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:31 2005 Subject: Oddball memory (?) sticks.... In-Reply-To: <9011A52E011ED311B4280004AC1BA6150146713F@yalepress3.unipress.yale.edu> Message-ID: >Another 'whats-it' question here. I have two kinds of, what look like 72-pin >memory... > The first is only 64 pin, has 8 chips (AAA1M300J-08 NMBS 9122), >with an empty spot for a 9th chip. Printed on the back - "1X964P A (in a >circle) 9115". Apparently made by Microtech. My guess is it's 1MB non-parity >memory, but I don't know what uses 64 pin memory sticks. I have 4 of these >sticks. > The second is 68 pin, 2 chip memory. Printed on the back, they're >made in 1994, in the USA, by Cubig Inc. Model number (I think) of VM512K. >512KB memory sticks? Have 3 of them... AST and Mac IIfx use different types of 64 pin simms, could be for either or neither. The 68 pin is early Macintosh Vram, around the Quadra era I think. From mcguire at neurotica.com Sat Oct 6 14:26:28 2001 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:31 2005 Subject: older SGI and Mac equipment available for free Message-ID: <15295.23268.927347.701308@phaduka.neurotica.com> Hey folks. I've got four or five SGI Personal Iris machines here...4D20, 4D25, and 4D35, in various configurations and in various states of operability. I also have three Macintosh Quadra 950s. I offer them for free to any interested party for pickup in Laurel, MD within the next two weeks or so. I am moving, and they need to go. In addition, there's a list of [non-free] stuff that I have available at http://www.neurotica.com/available.html. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Laurel, MD From vance at ikickass.org Sat Oct 6 15:07:55 2001 From: vance at ikickass.org (Absurdly Obtuse) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:31 2005 Subject: Oddball memory (?) sticks.... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Sat, 6 Oct 2001, Mike Ford wrote: > The 68 pin is early Macintosh Vram, around the Quadra era I think. Does it also work in NeXT color slabs? Peace... Sridhar From mvgslc at earthlink.net Sat Oct 6 15:14:10 2001 From: mvgslc at earthlink.net (Sue and Mark Grieshaber) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:31 2005 Subject: Free: Cabletron ST-500 thickwire:aui ethernet transceivers References: <200110061341.IAA51393@opal.tseinc.com> Message-ID: <3BBF6612.9080005@earthlink.net> I think I already know the answer, but perhaps someone can make use of these in a really authentic LAN at home :) - free (you pay shipping from St. Louis, MO): small box of Cabletron ST-500 thickwire to aui ethernet transceivers, working when removed from service. There are currently 4 or 5 units in the box (more may show up shortly). I'll hold on to these till 15 October, then they will be recycled. Please email offlist soonest if of interest. Thanks! Mark mvgslc@earthlink.net From menadeau at mediaone.net Sat Oct 6 15:19:18 2001 From: menadeau at mediaone.net (Michael Nadeau) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:31 2005 Subject: Copying a Scelbi -8H manual References: <15295.23268.927347.701308@phaduka.neurotica.com> Message-ID: <00a501c14ea4$3ca601c0$0c01a8c0@michaelnadeau> I'm copying a Scelbi-8H user's manual for another list member on Monday. I will do the same for anyone else willing to pay the copy fees and postage. The manual is 114 pages. Let me know by Sunday evening. --Mike Michael Nadeau Editorial Services 603-893-2379 From LFessen106 at aol.com Sat Oct 6 15:26:51 2001 From: LFessen106 at aol.com (LFessen106@aol.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:31 2005 Subject: older SGI and Mac equipment available for free Message-ID: In a message dated 10/06/2001 15:37:41, you wrote: > > Hey folks. I've got four or five SGI Personal Iris machines >here...4D20, 4D25, and 4D35, in various configurations and in various >states of operability. I also have three Macintosh Quadra 950s. I >offer them for free to any interested party for pickup in Laurel, MD >within the next two weeks or so. I am moving, and they need to go. Hey Dave, can you hold onto a Quadra for me? -Linc. From mcguire at neurotica.com Sat Oct 6 15:42:12 2001 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:31 2005 Subject: older SGI and Mac equipment available for free In-Reply-To: Re: older SGI and Mac equipment available for free (LFessen106@aol.com) References: Message-ID: <15295.27812.74099.487213@phaduka.neurotica.com> On October 6, LFessen106@aol.com wrote: > Hey Dave, can you hold onto a Quadra for me? Sure, if you can grab it before I move...end of October... -Dave -- Dave McGuire Laurel, MD From edick at idcomm.com Sat Oct 6 15:45:57 2001 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:31 2005 Subject: CBM8032 - wobbly screen (The saga continues) References: <5.1.0.14.0.20010928221144.00aaa2d0@192.168.1.2> <5.1.0.14.0.20011006195634.026c8330@192.168.1.2> Message-ID: <001a01c14ea7$f5be9f20$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> I doubt a new transformer will help this very much. If this box ever worked right, then something's changed, and the filter CAPs are a prime suspect after all these years. I'd look for a failed diode in a 4-diode bridge too, if that's what they used. However, what's more likely is a problem in the wiring, since the wiring path changes as you open/close the lid. Since increased shielding didn't do much, perhaps you should look at the power connections, as the cabling is perturbed whenever the box is opened. If you check underneath (on the solder side) the supply connections on the main board and, more likely, on the CRT board, perhaps you'll see a deteriorated connection or possible damaged trace that moves around when you wiggle the power wiring. It could even be a badly seated/latched contact in a MOLEX shell if that's what they used. I don't think Commodore made the CRT board, and they may have used a pretty shoddy monitor. You've apparently got to find something that's different between when the box is open versus when it's closed. Dick ----- Original Message ----- From: "Adrian Vickers" To: Sent: Saturday, October 06, 2001 1:06 PM Subject: Re: CBM8032 - wobbly screen (The saga continues) > Curiouser and curiouser... > > Today, I happened to have the machine opened up to effect some keyboard > repairs (i.e. a jolly good clean up). Having successfuly removed all traces > of key bounce, non-working keys, etc., and feeling justifiably please with > myself, it occurred to me to try a couple of things WRT the wobbly screen. > > 1st attempt: "build" some shielding out of aluminium foil to go around the > transformer. Which I did - all rough & ready stuff, with just a bit of > insulating tape over the transformer connections to make sure they didn't > short out. No effect - the screen wobbled its way along as ususal. > > 2nd attempt: Same as above, but this time I made absolutely sure the tin > foil was earthed, by screwing it onto the chassis via one of the > transformer screws. Same effect as 1st attempt: FA. > > 3rd attempt: Getting desparate now, I wrapped a load of tin foil around the > signal cables (having removed it from the transformer). Decided to leave > the lid up when I switched on and bingo! Steady as a rock (literally no > movement whatsoever. Refusing to get too excited, I carefully brought the > lid down (holding the signal cables so as not to let the tin foil touch the > circuit board - bah! The wobble returned. > > 4th attempt: Removed all tinfoil, started up with the lid open, no wobble. > The wobble appears progressively as the monitor approaches the transformer > (the lid down position). > > 5th attempt: Put a sheet of tinfoil over the whole of the bottom of the > monitor section. No effect - wobble remained. > > Clearly, therefore, the wobble is induced by the monitor. There must be a > fairly monster field coming off the transformer interfering with the > electron gun aiming circuit(s), or something like that. > > The question is: What *would* shield it? Do I need some thin steel or > copper, for example? Presumably, the shielding needs to be earthed (not > difficult, there's plenty of earth points around there. Or, would it be > easier to simply replace the big transformer with a smaller modern one? > > TIA! > -- > Cheers, Ade. > Be where it's at, B-Racing! > http://b-racing.co.uk > -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > --- > Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. > Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). > Version: 6.0.282 / Virus Database: 150 - Release Date: 25/09/2001 > From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Sat Oct 6 15:40:48 2001 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (ajp166) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:31 2005 Subject: CBM8032 - wobbly screen (The saga continues) Message-ID: <001701c14ea8$84775590$5df09a8d@ajp166> What you need is Mumetal which is a MAGNETIC alloy. Lacking that distance helps. Having built numrous O'scopes over the years the problem of transformers radiating magnetic fields are well known to me. Allison -----Original Message----- From: Adrian Vickers To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org Date: Saturday, October 06, 2001 3:39 PM Subject: Re: CBM8032 - wobbly screen (The saga continues) >Curiouser and curiouser... > >Today, I happened to have the machine opened up to effect some keyboard >repairs (i.e. a jolly good clean up). Having successfuly removed all traces >of key bounce, non-working keys, etc., and feeling justifiably please with >myself, it occurred to me to try a couple of things WRT the wobbly screen. > >1st attempt: "build" some shielding out of aluminium foil to go around the >transformer. Which I did - all rough & ready stuff, with just a bit of >insulating tape over the transformer connections to make sure they didn't >short out. No effect - the screen wobbled its way along as ususal. > >2nd attempt: Same as above, but this time I made absolutely sure the tin >foil was earthed, by screwing it onto the chassis via one of the >transformer screws. Same effect as 1st attempt: FA. > >3rd attempt: Getting desparate now, I wrapped a load of tin foil around the >signal cables (having removed it from the transformer). Decided to leave >the lid up when I switched on and bingo! Steady as a rock (literally no >movement whatsoever. Refusing to get too excited, I carefully brought the >lid down (holding the signal cables so as not to let the tin foil touch the >circuit board - bah! The wobble returned. > >4th attempt: Removed all tinfoil, started up with the lid open, no wobble. >The wobble appears progressively as the monitor approaches the transformer >(the lid down position). > >5th attempt: Put a sheet of tinfoil over the whole of the bottom of the >monitor section. No effect - wobble remained. > >Clearly, therefore, the wobble is induced by the monitor. There must be a >fairly monster field coming off the transformer interfering with the >electron gun aiming circuit(s), or something like that. > >The question is: What *would* shield it? Do I need some thin steel or >copper, for example? Presumably, the shielding needs to be earthed (not >difficult, there's plenty of earth points around there. Or, would it be >easier to simply replace the big transformer with a smaller modern one? > >TIA! >-- >Cheers, Ade. >Be where it's at, B-Racing! >http://b-racing.co.uk > From philpem at bigfoot.com Sat Oct 6 15:51:33 2001 From: philpem at bigfoot.com (Philip Pemberton) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:31 2005 Subject: 6502 BASIC or Assembler and Intel 8271/WDC 1770 info req'd Message-ID: <000f01c14ea8$afa6c8e0$b0007ad5@phoenix> On Sat, 6 Oct 2001 at 01:25:28 +0100 (BST), ard@p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) said: > > BTW, I also need some info on the Intel 8271 disk controller - I've got two > > I would not do a new design using the 8271. The chip is fairly hard to > find now, and there are machines that _need_ them (like the old Acorn > Systems). OK, then. One 8271, starting bid $100 - just kidding :-) > In fact, I'd probably use one of the all-in-one PC floppy controller > chips unless there was a very good reason not to. Add a crystal and > perhaps some cable driver chips. That's all... Is "I don't know any suppliers for PC FDCs" a good reason? Farnell Electronics don't seem to sell them, nor do Maplins, Electrovalue, ESR Electronics or any other supplier I know. Care to tell me where I can get them? > > of these little devils and Intel's datasheet makes absolutely no sense at > > all. I've also got a Western Digital WD1770-PH 00-02 that I might be able to > > use instead. First of all, which is the better controller? The 8271 or the > > 1770? Also, is it possible to overclock a 1770 or an 8271 like you can a > > 1772? > > Oh, use the 1770. It does double density (MFM) for one thing (the 8271 is > single-density only). It also require many fewer support circuits I > think. OK, then. The 1770 it is. > The 1770 and 1772 are closely related (the difference being the step > rates the chips can produce). I would guess that the 1770 can be > overclocked, but I've never tried it. I think I'll keep it running at the normal speed (8MHz). But the machine will have a 16MHz oscillator and a divider, with a few jumper blocks for clock speed selection (8 and 16MHz for the FDC, 1, 2 or 4MHz for the 6502 and support circuitry). I've got two Western Design Center W65SC02s (14MHz 6502s! Woohoo!) to play with, plus a Synertek SY6502A (the 2MHz one), two W65SC22s (10MHz WDC 6502s) and two Synertek 6522s (1MHz). So now I'm left with two questions: 1) Has anyone got any source code for the WD1770? 6502 ASM, C, anything. 2) Has anyone got a schematic for a fairly half-decent 16-colour (or better) video card that can be modified to work on a 6502? I've had a look at the NASCOM schematics but I've heard Bad Things(tm) about the NASCOM video system. Aparrently Gemini and a few others produced colour video cards for the NASCOM. Anyone got schematics for these? Graphics would also be nice (the NASCOM video system is text only). BTW, I'd like to avoid obsolete components if that's at all possible. I've got a Hitachi HD6845 but if the 40-odd page datasheet is anything to go by, it's a real dog to use... And it only works in monochrome. I have got a MOS Tech 6568(?) VIC-II, the same one used in the UK Commodore 64. The PSU for this C64 is fried, took out some of the support components with it. TIA. -- Phil. philpem@bigfoot.com http://www.philpem.f9.co.uk/ From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat Oct 6 15:36:28 2001 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:31 2005 Subject: CBM8032 - wobbly screen (The saga continues) In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20011006195634.026c8330@192.168.1.2> from "Adrian Vickers" at Oct 6, 1 08:06:16 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 2573 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20011006/6458c890/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat Oct 6 15:02:41 2001 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:31 2005 Subject: Is there a source for veroboard in the U.S.? In-Reply-To: <1783.679T2200T3706317optimus@canit.se> from "Iggy Drougge" at Oct 6, 1 06:10:44 am Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 724 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20011006/67c44d3c/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat Oct 6 13:23:25 2001 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:31 2005 Subject: IBM ROM BASIC or lack thereof In-Reply-To: <3BBE024C.29454.41E5161@localhost> from "Lawrence Walker" at Oct 5, 1 06:56:12 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 2951 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20011006/9f1cdc51/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat Oct 6 14:47:01 2001 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:31 2005 Subject: IBM ROM BASIC or lack thereof In-Reply-To: <2000.679T750T2344711optimus@canit.se> from "Iggy Drougge" at Oct 6, 1 03:54:15 am Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1302 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20011006/21aa20ac/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat Oct 6 14:59:37 2001 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:31 2005 Subject: IBM ROM BASIC or lack thereof In-Reply-To: <1848.679T1100T3494453optimus@canit.se> from "Iggy Drougge" at Oct 6, 1 05:49:22 am Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1193 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20011006/bc681ae4/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat Oct 6 15:18:17 2001 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:31 2005 Subject: 6502 BASIC or Assembler and Intel 8271/WDC 1770 info req'd In-Reply-To: <003601c14e74$446dbd60$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> from "Richard Erlacher" at Oct 6, 1 08:36:21 am Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 708 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20011006/62486e3d/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat Oct 6 15:07:05 2001 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:31 2005 Subject: Rebuilding the PDP 11/34 (2volts?) In-Reply-To: <000501c14e69$3286c430$0101a8c0@sympatico.ca> from "Mike Kenzie" at Oct 6, 1 09:16:49 am Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1639 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20011006/718c3119/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat Oct 6 14:51:56 2001 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:31 2005 Subject: Restoring classic kits we built way-back-when In-Reply-To: <3.0.2.32.20011006002041.01e06224@obregon.multi.net.co> from "Carlos Murillo" at Oct 6, 1 00:20:41 am Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1759 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20011006/18fd9bce/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat Oct 6 15:14:44 2001 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:31 2005 Subject: 6502 BASIC or Assembler and Intel 8271/WDC 1770 info req'd In-Reply-To: <000f01c14e70$9d87a220$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> from "Richard Erlacher" at Oct 6, 1 08:10:12 am Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 731 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20011006/4dc80abb/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat Oct 6 15:49:39 2001 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:31 2005 Subject: 6502 BASIC or Assembler and Intel 8271/WDC 1770 info req'd In-Reply-To: <000f01c14ea8$afa6c8e0$b0007ad5@phoenix> from "Philip Pemberton" at Oct 6, 1 09:51:33 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 4060 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20011006/650810fd/attachment.ksh From mythtech at Mac.com Sat Oct 6 16:24:01 2001 From: mythtech at Mac.com (Chris) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:31 2005 Subject: CBM8032 - wobbly screen (The saga continues) Message-ID: >4th attempt: Removed all tinfoil, started up with the lid open, no wobble. >The wobble appears progressively as the monitor approaches the transformer >(the lid down position). Knowing NOTHING about the unit you are working on... two things pop in my mind from my TV/VCR repair days. 1: Is it possible the controller on the back of the tube is loose? When you tilt the lid (and from what I gather, the tube with it) back into place, maybe the board is shifting from the change in weight position. 2: Is there a cable or wire that is getting pulled on when you close the lid? Maybe one of them has a bad solder joint, and the joint stays properly closed when the lid is open, but when closed, gets pulled (or pushed), and breaks the connection. Have you tried, while the unit is open, to jiggle any wires that might be effected (obviously, don't do them with your hands, use a non conductive spudger or similar tool... wouldn't want you to kill yourself by grabbing the wrong wire) Again, I know NOTHING about the unit you are working on, so these were just shots in the dark thinking maybe something will help. -chris From edick at idcomm.com Sat Oct 6 16:32:45 2001 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:31 2005 Subject: 6502 BASIC or Assembler and Intel 8271/WDC 1770 info req'd References: Message-ID: <001701c14eae$701847c0$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> The DIL parts are supposed to exist, but I've never seen them. Perhaps the lack of pins for crystal oscillators explains that. Dick ----- Original Message ----- From: "Tony Duell" To: Sent: Saturday, October 06, 2001 2:14 PM Subject: Re: 6502 BASIC or Assembler and Intel 8271/WDC 1770 info req'd > > > > If you use the WD37C65, (available, yet today, via Rochester Electronics) though > > you do have to use two crystals to cover the range of needed clocks, it is > > You only need 1 of the 2 crystals if you want the 300kbps data rate. > That's what you get if you read normal 5.25" disks in a HD disk drive > (which rotates at 360rpm, not 300 rpm like most other drives). > > The other crystal (which is always needed) gives you the 250kbps and > 500kbps data rates which may be all you need. > > IIRC the PLCC part has built-in oscillator circuits (just add the > crystals) and the DIL part needs TTL-level clocks (there arent' enough > pins to have 2 for each crystal on the DIL package), but I might be > thinking of some other chip. > > -tony > > From vze2mnvr at verizon.net Sat Oct 6 16:32:43 2001 From: vze2mnvr at verizon.net (Jan Koller) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:31 2005 Subject: Restoring classic kits we built way-back-when References: <20011005031722.68043.qmail@web20101.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <3BBF787B.2CFCCC97@verizon.net> So why not just build another from scratch. That way you don't take a chance on messing up the one that works, and you can have a before and after version showing the improvement in your skills. Ethan Dicks wrote: > > So re-soldering my TVT-6 makes it look nice, but dilutes the fact that > it was originally built in the 1970s, just as much as using modern > ICs does. Do people have an opinion about this? Am I just stuck on > the horns of a false dilemma? > > -ethan > > __________________________________________________ > Do You Yahoo!? > NEW from Yahoo! GeoCities - quick and easy web site hosting, just $8.95/month. > http://geocities.yahoo.com/ps/info1 From KenzieM at sympatico.ca Sat Oct 6 16:56:20 2001 From: KenzieM at sympatico.ca (Mike Kenzie) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:31 2005 Subject: Rebuilding the PDP 11/34 (2volts?) References: Message-ID: <001c01c14eb1$bd357660$0101a8c0@sympatico.ca> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Tony Duell" To: Sent: Saturday, October 06, 2001 4:07 PM Subject: Re: Rebuilding the PDP 11/34 (2volts?) > > Got it reassembled and turned the switch, the lights came on and the > > voltagages tested at +-15, +5 and one at +2v > > > > We were expecting the 15 and 5 but not the 2 is this just an artefact > > of testing with the unit partially disconnected? > > The 15 and the 5 sound right. The 2V could be one of the nominally > TTL-level signals to the backplane -- ACLO or DCLO (basically power OK > lines) or LTC (line time clock, a pulse at mains frequency for the > heartbeat interrupt), for example. What pin of what connector did you > find it on? I'll have to double check that but that is what we figured. > > Also have a few BC11A cables for connecting the units but the main > > unit seems to have all the slots filled and a terminator at the end. > > You pull out the terminator and connect a BC11A cable in place of it. > Then connect the other end of that cable to the Unibus In connector on > the first expansion box (or whatever). Carry on linking the units > together and put the terminator in the Unibus Out slot of the last device. I found another PDP 11/34a this afternoon from the same place as mine originally came from. This one had 1 RL01's a RK05 and a Tektronix 400? terminal on it. I was able to check out the cabling. The RK05's were connected by a wide flat ribbon as well coming out of the case from the same line as the first card of the controller set. I managed to get the face plate for my DataMedia terminal, and saw 2 PDP 11/44's and a Huge DG sitting in the rain. There was also a box with a Q-bus on one side and a unibus on the other. Unfortunately I'm out of space. Also a headstart advantage and a HP Envizex at another stop. Does anyone know about the headstart advantage? > > > > > There are several unidentified cards still remaining > > > > versatech 289 380211 with 2 teledyne philbrick 4023 10bit D/A > > convterers > > Is that 'Versatec'? I associate that name with fairly high resolution > printers (200 dpi electrostatic matrix units) and plotters. Maybe a > plotter interface acard or something. I'll post a better description when I get back into the garage with some light. From edick at idcomm.com Sat Oct 6 16:59:57 2001 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:31 2005 Subject: 6502 BASIC or Assembler and Intel 8271/WDC 1770 info req'd References: Message-ID: <001f01c14eb2$3e309100$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> I don't remember this clearly at all, but I seem to remember a part from Intel that did have the same pinout as the WD1771. Apparently that wasn't it. Dick ----- Original Message ----- From: "Tony Duell" To: Sent: Saturday, October 06, 2001 2:18 PM Subject: Re: 6502 BASIC or Assembler and Intel 8271/WDC 1770 info req'd > > only thing you have to do is handle the clock differences for 8", 5-/4", and > > 3-1/2" drives. IF you leave the 8" drives out of the equation, and I see no > > reason to include them, it should be dirt-simple. > > 8" drives are no problem. It's the same data rate (and thus clock Xtal) > as the HD modes for 5.25" and 3.5" drives. The only time you have to use > the second Xtal is if you use a HD 5.25" drive and want to be able to > read normal density disks in it. > > > > > I may be confused about this, but wasn't the 8271 just a rebadged WD1771? If > > They seem to be totally different devices. OK, they're both disk > controllers, and they're both single-density only, but there the > similarlity ends... > > -tony > > From KenzieM at sympatico.ca Sat Oct 6 16:56:20 2001 From: KenzieM at sympatico.ca (Mike Kenzie) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:31 2005 Subject: Rebuilding the PDP 11/34 (2volts?) References: Message-ID: <001d01c14eb2$9aada120$0101a8c0@sympatico.ca> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Tony Duell" To: Sent: Saturday, October 06, 2001 4:07 PM Subject: Re: Rebuilding the PDP 11/34 (2volts?) > > Got it reassembled and turned the switch, the lights came on and the > > voltagages tested at +-15, +5 and one at +2v > > > > We were expecting the 15 and 5 but not the 2 is this just an artefact > > of testing with the unit partially disconnected? > > The 15 and the 5 sound right. The 2V could be one of the nominally > TTL-level signals to the backplane -- ACLO or DCLO (basically power OK > lines) or LTC (line time clock, a pulse at mains frequency for the > heartbeat interrupt), for example. What pin of what connector did you > find it on? I'll have to double check that but that is what we figured. > > Also have a few BC11A cables for connecting the units but the main > > unit seems to have all the slots filled and a terminator at the end. > > You pull out the terminator and connect a BC11A cable in place of it. > Then connect the other end of that cable to the Unibus In connector on > the first expansion box (or whatever). Carry on linking the units > together and put the terminator in the Unibus Out slot of the last device. I found another PDP 11/34a this afternoon from the same place as mine originally came from. This one had 1 RL01's a RK05 and a Tektronix 400? terminal on it. I was able to check out the cabling. The RK05's were connected by a wide flat ribbon as well coming out of the case from the same line as the first card of the controller set. I managed to get the face plate for my DataMedia terminal, and saw 2 PDP 11/44's and a Huge DG sitting in the rain. There was also a box with a Q-bus on one side and a unibus on the other. Unfortunately I'm out of space. Also a headstart advantage and a HP Envizex at another stop. Does anyone know about the headstart advantage? > > > > > There are several unidentified cards still remaining > > > > versatech 289 380211 with 2 teledyne philbrick 4023 10bit D/A > > convterers > > Is that 'Versatec'? I associate that name with fairly high resolution > printers (200 dpi electrostatic matrix units) and plotters. Maybe a > plotter interface acard or something. I'll post a better description when I get back into the garage with some light. From red at bears.org Sat Oct 6 17:01:57 2001 From: red at bears.org (r. 'bear' stricklin) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:31 2005 Subject: Oddball memory (?) sticks.... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Sat, 6 Oct 2001, Absurdly Obtuse wrote: > > The 68 pin is early Macintosh Vram, around the Quadra era I think. > > Does it also work in NeXT color slabs? Do the best of my knowledge, no NeXT machine has expandable VRAM (save the NeXTdimension, which uses ordinary 72-pin SIMMs). ok r. From KenzieM at sympatico.ca Sat Oct 6 17:04:44 2001 From: KenzieM at sympatico.ca (Mike Kenzie) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:31 2005 Subject: Rebuilding the PDP 11/34 (2volts?) References: Message-ID: <002d01c14eb2$e95fcf00$0101a8c0@sympatico.ca> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Tony Duell" To: Sent: Saturday, October 06, 2001 4:07 PM Subject: Re: Rebuilding the PDP 11/34 (2volts?) > > Got it reassembled and turned the switch, the lights came on and the > > voltagages tested at +-15, +5 and one at +2v > > > > We were expecting the 15 and 5 but not the 2 is this just an artefact > > of testing with the unit partially disconnected? > > The 15 and the 5 sound right. The 2V could be one of the nominally > TTL-level signals to the backplane -- ACLO or DCLO (basically power OK > lines) or LTC (line time clock, a pulse at mains frequency for the > heartbeat interrupt), for example. What pin of what connector did you > find it on? I'll have to double check that but that is what we figured. > > Also have a few BC11A cables for connecting the units but the main > > unit seems to have all the slots filled and a terminator at the end. > > You pull out the terminator and connect a BC11A cable in place of it. > Then connect the other end of that cable to the Unibus In connector on > the first expansion box (or whatever). Carry on linking the units > together and put the terminator in the Unibus Out slot of the last device. I found another PDP 11/34a this afternoon from the same place as mine originally came from. This one had 1 RL01's a RK05 and a Tektronix 400? terminal on it. I was able to check out the cabling. The RK05's were connected by a wide flat ribbon as well coming out of the case from the same line as the first card of the controller set. I managed to get the face plate for my DataMedia terminal, and saw 2 PDP 11/44's and a Huge DG sitting in the rain. There was also a box with a Q-bus on one side and a unibus on the other. Unfortunately I'm out of space. Also a headstart advantage and a HP Envizex at another stop. Does anyone know about the headstart advantage? > > > > > There are several unidentified cards still remaining > > > > versatech 289 380211 with 2 teledyne philbrick 4023 10bit D/A > > convterers > > Is that 'Versatec'? I associate that name with fairly high resolution > printers (200 dpi electrostatic matrix units) and plotters. Maybe a > plotter interface acard or something. I'll post a better description when I get back into the garage with some light. From ms at silke.rt.schwaben.de Sat Oct 6 17:15:51 2001 From: ms at silke.rt.schwaben.de (Michael Schneider) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:31 2005 Subject: CBM8032 - wobbly screen (The saga continues) References: <5.1.0.14.0.20010928221144.00aaa2d0@192.168.1.2> <5.1.0.14.0.20011006195634.026c8330@192.168.1.2> <001a01c14ea7$f5be9f20$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> Message-ID: <3BBF8296.2948D7C7@silke.rt.schwaben.de> I have to disagree. What Adrian describes are the "classical" symptoms for electromagnetic inductions, resp. distortions caused by this physical effect. Grounding and shielding with tin foil does not help, since it's the transformers magnetic field (as opposed to an electrostatic field, that would be shielded by the grounded foil) that deflects the electrons of the CRT beam and causes the wobble. Tha most probable cause is indeed the transformer, more precisely: the aging core of the transformer. This core usually is made of a lot of thin sheets of steel. The purpose of the core is to a) couple the primary and secondary coils very closely and, more important b) to "contain" and keep the electromagnetic field closely within the transformer. Well, ok, that's a bit simplistic, but you'll get the idea. The core is not made out of a compact piece of steel since stray currents would be induced within the steel, heating up the core and wasting energy. This stray currents ("eddies" they're called in english, i think...) would be induced perpendicular to the orientation of the sheets the transformer core is made of. Thus, these sheets must be insulated by very thin layers of plastic or resin or something similar. Now, this is the point: With old transformers, this insulation starts to literally crumble away, which leads to a significantly larger stray magnetic field around the transformer. Later, you can usually **HEAR** this effect: the steel sheets start to humm with the line frequency. The transformer is close to dead now... To make this log story short: Yes, a new transformer should help. New, like in "factory fresh"... Even better would be one of these fancy and expensive torroid trasformers, since they have literally no measurable magnetic field outside the core. Shielding of the old transformer is no real option. You would need what we Germans call "mu-Metal", which is a special alloy of steel and other things i have long forgotten but that make it EXPENSIVE. It is magnetic, but not a good conductor, which make it ideal for shielding magnetic fields. You could try a shielding out of steel sheets, but they might get hot if the stray currents induced by the transformers magnetic field are too large. And the shielding effect is not too good... Oh, and by the way: I'm new to this list... 8-) Hi, i'm Michael and i am collecting old VAXen. I live somewhere in southern Germany, which is not that bad. No, really.... 8-) Cheers ms P.S.: sorry for the long post... Richard Erlacher wrote: > > I doubt a new transformer will help this very much. If this box ever worked > right, then something's changed, and the filter CAPs are a prime suspect after > all these years. I'd look for a failed diode in a 4-diode bridge too, if that's > what they used. However, what's more likely is a problem in the wiring, since > the wiring path changes as you open/close the lid. Since increased shielding > didn't do much, perhaps you should look at the power connections, as the cabling > is perturbed whenever the box is opened. If you check underneath (on the solder > side) the supply connections on the main board and, more likely, on the CRT > board, perhaps you'll see a deteriorated connection or possible damaged trace > that moves around when you wiggle the power wiring. It could even be a badly > seated/latched contact in a MOLEX shell if that's what they used. I don't think > Commodore made the CRT board, and they may have used a pretty shoddy monitor. > > You've apparently got to find something that's different between when the box is > open versus when it's closed. > > Dick > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Adrian Vickers" > To: > Sent: Saturday, October 06, 2001 1:06 PM > Subject: Re: CBM8032 - wobbly screen (The saga continues) > > > Curiouser and curiouser... > > > > Today, I happened to have the machine opened up to effect some keyboard > > repairs (i.e. a jolly good clean up). Having successfuly removed all traces > > of key bounce, non-working keys, etc., and feeling justifiably please with > > myself, it occurred to me to try a couple of things WRT the wobbly screen. > > > > 1st attempt: "build" some shielding out of aluminium foil to go around the > > transformer. Which I did - all rough & ready stuff, with just a bit of > > insulating tape over the transformer connections to make sure they didn't > > short out. No effect - the screen wobbled its way along as ususal. > > > > 2nd attempt: Same as above, but this time I made absolutely sure the tin > > foil was earthed, by screwing it onto the chassis via one of the > > transformer screws. Same effect as 1st attempt: FA. > > > > 3rd attempt: Getting desparate now, I wrapped a load of tin foil around the > > signal cables (having removed it from the transformer). Decided to leave > > the lid up when I switched on and bingo! Steady as a rock (literally no > > movement whatsoever. Refusing to get too excited, I carefully brought the > > lid down (holding the signal cables so as not to let the tin foil touch the > > circuit board - bah! The wobble returned. > > > > 4th attempt: Removed all tinfoil, started up with the lid open, no wobble. > > The wobble appears progressively as the monitor approaches the transformer > > (the lid down position). > > > > 5th attempt: Put a sheet of tinfoil over the whole of the bottom of the > > monitor section. No effect - wobble remained. > > > > Clearly, therefore, the wobble is induced by the monitor. There must be a > > fairly monster field coming off the transformer interfering with the > > electron gun aiming circuit(s), or something like that. > > > > The question is: What *would* shield it? Do I need some thin steel or > > copper, for example? Presumably, the shielding needs to be earthed (not > > difficult, there's plenty of earth points around there. Or, would it be > > easier to simply replace the big transformer with a smaller modern one? > > > > TIA! > > -- > > Cheers, Ade. > > Be where it's at, B-Racing! > > http://b-racing.co.uk > > > > -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > > > > --- > > Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. > > Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). > > Version: 6.0.282 / Virus Database: 150 - Release Date: 25/09/2001 > > -- Michael Schneider email (home): ms@silke.rt.schwaben.de Schleestr.8 http://www.vaxcluster.de 72766 Reutlingen Phone: +49 7121 492781 Germany FAX: +49 7121 479331 People disagree with me. I just ignore them. (Linus Torvalds) From dittman at dittman.net Sat Oct 6 17:16:33 2001 From: dittman at dittman.net (Eric Dittman) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:31 2005 Subject: 6502 BASIC or Assembler and Intel 8271/WDC 1770 info req'd In-Reply-To: from "Tony Duell" at Oct 06, 2001 09:49:39 PM Message-ID: <200110062216.f96MGX100949@narnia.int.dittman.net> > > So now I'm left with two questions: > > 1) Has anyone got any source code for the WD1770? 6502 ASM, C, anything. > > The 1770 is pretty much compatible with the other Western Digital FDCs. > The TRS-80 model 4 uses the 1793 (very similar in software), and the > sources of LS-DOS 6.3.1 are on the web somewhere (Tim Mann's page?). > That's Z80 assembly language. The later (gate array) TRS-80 Model 4 systems used a 1773 FDC, which was compatible with the 1793. The 1770 and 1773 were compatible, differing only in the logic states of some of the lines, but it's been so long since I've used either I can't remember which pins were different. The 1770/1772/1773 had both the data separator and write precompensation built-in. They are 28 pin devices (the 1793 is a 40 pin device). -- Eric Dittman dittman@dittman.net Check out the DEC Enthusiasts Club at http://www.dittman.net/ From Innfogra at aol.com Sat Oct 6 18:17:37 2001 From: Innfogra at aol.com (Innfogra@aol.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:31 2005 Subject: CBM8032 - wobbly screen (The saga continues) Message-ID: <14e.21cefac.28f0eb11@aol.com> In a message dated 10/6/01 3:35:56 PM Pacific Daylight Time, ms@silke.rt.schwaben.de writes: > call "mu-Metal", which is a special alloy of steel and other things i > have long > forgotten but that make it EXPENSIVE. > It is magnetic, but not a good conductor, which make it ideal for > shielding magnetic > fields Mu metal should be easily scroungable. It is the shielding on old large graphic monitors, Convergent "N"gens and many other pieces of electronic gear. Often found around CRTs and CPUs. Tektronix used a lot of it. It is soft and usually a dull gray although sometimes silvery. Occasionally it shows a crystal type surface. It is magnetic and not a good conductor. It is expensive new. We got up to $5 per pound for it, scrap, at one time. Paxton Astoria, OR -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20011006/1e893f26/attachment.html From edick at idcomm.com Sat Oct 6 18:15:14 2001 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:31 2005 Subject: CBM8032 - wobbly screen (The saga continues) References: <5.1.0.14.0.20010928221144.00aaa2d0@192.168.1.2> <5.1.0.14.0.20011006195634.026c8330@192.168.1.2> <001a01c14ea7$f5be9f20$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> <3BBF8296.2948D7C7@silke.rt.schwaben.de> Message-ID: <004001c14ebd$b8dc10e0$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> What Michael says here makes a great deal of sense. However, as I have a number of units which, like the Commodore box, have a transformer of considerable age in their power supply located near the yoke of the CRT, yet have none of the wobble described here, it seems to me that one could probably allow the transformer in the Commodore unit to remain at least long enough to check for some sort of disruption of the power supply to the sweep circuits. Transformers should last longer than this 20 years or so, while the capacitors have reached their shelf-life limits, I think. Partly, I guess, this bias is because I'm quite certain it will be a lot of trouble replacing the original transformer, though a kit with appropriate spec's might be solution. In any case, one can check the power supply connections to the CRT circuitry without leaving the house. This being Saturday, I'd say Monday will be soon enough to go searching for a replacement transformer. Let's keep our fingers crossed ... Dick ----- Original Message ----- From: "Michael Schneider" To: Sent: Saturday, October 06, 2001 4:15 PM Subject: Re: CBM8032 - wobbly screen (The saga continues) > I have to disagree. > > What Adrian describes are the "classical" symptoms for electromagnetic > inductions, > resp. distortions caused by this physical effect. Grounding and > shielding with tin > foil does not help, since it's the transformers magnetic field (as > opposed to an > electrostatic field, that would be shielded by the grounded foil) that > deflects the > electrons of the CRT beam and causes the wobble. > > Tha most probable cause is indeed the transformer, more precisely: the > aging core > of the transformer. This core usually is made of a lot of thin sheets of > steel. > The purpose of the core is to a) couple the primary and secondary coils > very > closely and, more important b) to "contain" and keep the electromagnetic > field > closely within the transformer. Well, ok, that's a bit simplistic, but > you'll get > the idea. The core is not made out of a compact piece of steel since > stray currents > would be induced within the steel, heating up the core and wasting > energy. This stray > currents ("eddies" they're called in english, i think...) would be > induced perpendicular > to the orientation of the sheets the transformer core is made of. > Thus, these sheets must be insulated by very thin layers of plastic or > resin or something > similar. > Now, this is the point: With old transformers, this insulation starts to > literally crumble > away, which leads to a significantly larger stray magnetic field around > the transformer. > Later, you can usually **HEAR** this effect: the steel sheets start to > humm with the > line frequency. The transformer is close to dead now... > > To make this log story short: Yes, a new transformer should help. New, > like in > "factory fresh"... > Even better would be one of these fancy and expensive torroid > trasformers, since > they have literally no measurable magnetic field outside the core. > > Shielding of the old transformer is no real option. You would need what > we Germans > call "mu-Metal", which is a special alloy of steel and other things i > have long > forgotten but that make it EXPENSIVE. > It is magnetic, but not a good conductor, which make it ideal for > shielding magnetic > fields. > > You could try a shielding out of steel sheets, but they might get hot if > the stray > currents induced by the transformers magnetic field are too large. And > the shielding > effect is not too good... > > > Oh, and by the way: I'm new to this list... 8-) > Hi, i'm Michael and i am collecting old VAXen. > I live somewhere in southern Germany, which is not that bad. No, > really.... 8-) > > Cheers > > ms > > > P.S.: sorry for the long post... > Richard Erlacher wrote: > > > > I doubt a new transformer will help this very much. If this box ever worked > > right, then something's changed, and the filter CAPs are a prime suspect after > > all these years. I'd look for a failed diode in a 4-diode bridge too, if that's > > what they used. However, what's more likely is a problem in the wiring, since > > the wiring path changes as you open/close the lid. Since increased shielding > > didn't do much, perhaps you should look at the power connections, as the cabling > > is perturbed whenever the box is opened. If you check underneath (on the solder > > side) the supply connections on the main board and, more likely, on the CRT > > board, perhaps you'll see a deteriorated connection or possible damaged trace > > that moves around when you wiggle the power wiring. It could even be a badly > > seated/latched contact in a MOLEX shell if that's what they used. I don't think > > Commodore made the CRT board, and they may have used a pretty shoddy monitor. > > > > You've apparently got to find something that's different between when the box is > > open versus when it's closed. > > > > Dick > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: "Adrian Vickers" > > To: > > Sent: Saturday, October 06, 2001 1:06 PM > > Subject: Re: CBM8032 - wobbly screen (The saga continues) > > > > > Curiouser and curiouser... > > > > > > Today, I happened to have the machine opened up to effect some keyboard > > > repairs (i.e. a jolly good clean up). Having successfuly removed all traces > > > of key bounce, non-working keys, etc., and feeling justifiably please with > > > myself, it occurred to me to try a couple of things WRT the wobbly screen. > > > > > > 1st attempt: "build" some shielding out of aluminium foil to go around the > > > transformer. Which I did - all rough & ready stuff, with just a bit of > > > insulating tape over the transformer connections to make sure they didn't > > > short out. No effect - the screen wobbled its way along as ususal. > > > > > > 2nd attempt: Same as above, but this time I made absolutely sure the tin > > > foil was earthed, by screwing it onto the chassis via one of the > > > transformer screws. Same effect as 1st attempt: FA. > > > > > > 3rd attempt: Getting desparate now, I wrapped a load of tin foil around the > > > signal cables (having removed it from the transformer). Decided to leave > > > the lid up when I switched on and bingo! Steady as a rock (literally no > > > movement whatsoever. Refusing to get too excited, I carefully brought the > > > lid down (holding the signal cables so as not to let the tin foil touch the > > > circuit board - bah! The wobble returned. > > > > > > 4th attempt: Removed all tinfoil, started up with the lid open, no wobble. > > > The wobble appears progressively as the monitor approaches the transformer > > > (the lid down position). > > > > > > 5th attempt: Put a sheet of tinfoil over the whole of the bottom of the > > > monitor section. No effect - wobble remained. > > > > > > Clearly, therefore, the wobble is induced by the monitor. There must be a > > > fairly monster field coming off the transformer interfering with the > > > electron gun aiming circuit(s), or something like that. > > > > > > The question is: What *would* shield it? Do I need some thin steel or > > > copper, for example? Presumably, the shielding needs to be earthed (not > > > difficult, there's plenty of earth points around there. Or, would it be > > > easier to simply replace the big transformer with a smaller modern one? > > > > > > TIA! > > > -- > > > Cheers, Ade. > > > Be where it's at, B-Racing! > > > http://b-racing.co.uk > > > > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ -- > > > > > > > > --- > > > Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. > > > Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). > > > Version: 6.0.282 / Virus Database: 150 - Release Date: 25/09/2001 > > > > > -- > Michael Schneider email (home): ms@silke.rt.schwaben.de > Schleestr.8 http://www.vaxcluster.de > 72766 Reutlingen Phone: +49 7121 492781 > Germany FAX: +49 7121 479331 > > People disagree with me. I just ignore them. > (Linus Torvalds) > > From edick at idcomm.com Sat Oct 6 18:22:01 2001 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:31 2005 Subject: 6502 BASIC or Assembler and Intel 8271/WDC 1770 info req'd References: <200110062216.f96MGX100949@narnia.int.dittman.net> Message-ID: <004101c14ebd$b92ffd40$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> The 1772 and 1770 were designed specifically for use with the 5-1/4" units, though that's not necessarily what their use today may be. I've never seen the 1773 in the flesh, though I've got a data sheet somewhere (though I've managed to hide it somewhere). The three chips are all similar, though not identical, in that they have the same data/clock separator circuitr and write precomp circuit. However, the 1773 lacks some signals that are on the 1770/72, thereby rendering it less "dedicated" to 5-1/4" drives. The datasheet did, IIRC, specifically indicate that they're all similar in commands, etc, though the timing parameters differ somewhat in that the 1770 is slower than the otherwise identical 1772 in terms of its step rate settings. If I could lay hands on the 1770/2/3 datasheet, I could tell you which pins differ and in what sense, but ... If somebody's got a 1773 and wants a 1770, I'll happily swap 'em, just so I have one in house. Dick ----- Original Message ----- From: "Eric Dittman" To: Sent: Saturday, October 06, 2001 4:16 PM Subject: Re: 6502 BASIC or Assembler and Intel 8271/WDC 1770 info req'd > > > So now I'm left with two questions: > > > 1) Has anyone got any source code for the WD1770? 6502 ASM, C, anything. > > > > The 1770 is pretty much compatible with the other Western Digital FDCs. > > The TRS-80 model 4 uses the 1793 (very similar in software), and the > > sources of LS-DOS 6.3.1 are on the web somewhere (Tim Mann's page?). > > That's Z80 assembly language. > > The later (gate array) TRS-80 Model 4 systems used a 1773 FDC, which was > compatible with the 1793. The 1770 and 1773 were compatible, differing > only in the logic states of some of the lines, but it's been so long > since I've used either I can't remember which pins were different. > > The 1770/1772/1773 had both the data separator and write precompensation > built-in. They are 28 pin devices (the 1793 is a 40 pin device). > -- > Eric Dittman > dittman@dittman.net > Check out the DEC Enthusiasts Club at http://www.dittman.net/ > > From vance at ikickass.org Sat Oct 6 18:43:30 2001 From: vance at ikickass.org (Absurdly Obtuse) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:31 2005 Subject: Oddball memory (?) sticks.... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Then what is that socket slightly smaller and apart from the memory sockets on the mainboard of my color turbo slab? Peace... Sridhar On Sat, 6 Oct 2001, r. 'bear' stricklin wrote: > On Sat, 6 Oct 2001, Absurdly Obtuse wrote: > > > > The 68 pin is early Macintosh Vram, around the Quadra era I think. > > > > Does it also work in NeXT color slabs? > > Do the best of my knowledge, no NeXT machine has expandable VRAM (save the > NeXTdimension, which uses ordinary 72-pin SIMMs). > > ok > r. > From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat Oct 6 18:15:22 2001 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:31 2005 Subject: Rebuilding the PDP 11/34 (2volts?) In-Reply-To: <001d01c14eb2$9aada120$0101a8c0@sympatico.ca> from "Mike Kenzie" at Oct 6, 1 05:56:20 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 808 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20011007/7e116646/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat Oct 6 18:17:46 2001 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:31 2005 Subject: 6502 BASIC or Assembler and Intel 8271/WDC 1770 info req'd In-Reply-To: <200110062216.f96MGX100949@narnia.int.dittman.net> from "Eric Dittman" at Oct 6, 1 05:16:33 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 498 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20011007/7a9ef31e/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat Oct 6 18:12:02 2001 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:31 2005 Subject: 6502 BASIC or Assembler and Intel 8271/WDC 1770 info req'd In-Reply-To: <001701c14eae$701847c0$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> from "Richard Erlacher" at Oct 6, 1 03:32:45 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 607 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20011007/a9aa2785/attachment.ksh From dittman at dittman.net Sat Oct 6 19:14:22 2001 From: dittman at dittman.net (Eric Dittman) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:32 2005 Subject: 6502 BASIC or Assembler and Intel 8271/WDC 1770 info req'd In-Reply-To: from "Richard Erlacher" at Oct 06, 2001 05:22:01 PM Message-ID: <200110070014.f970EML01795@narnia.int.dittman.net> > The 1772 and 1770 were designed specifically for use with the 5-1/4" units, > though that's not necessarily what their use today may be. > > I've never seen the 1773 in the flesh, though I've got a data sheet somewhere > (though I've managed to hide it somewhere). The three chips are all similar, > though not identical, in that they have the same data/clock separator circuitr > and write precomp circuit. However, the 1773 lacks some signals that are on the > 1770/72, thereby rendering it less "dedicated" to 5-1/4" drives. The datasheet > did, IIRC, specifically indicate that they're all similar in commands, etc, > though the timing parameters differ somewhat in that the 1770 is slower than the > otherwise identical 1772 in terms of its step rate settings. If I could lay > hands on the 1770/2/3 datasheet, I could tell you which pins differ and in what > sense, but ... The 1773 is also dedicated to 5.25" drives. Your email jogged my memory, and indeed the difference between the 1770 and 1773 was a couple of different signals. I've used the exact same code on both of them. From a programming point of view they are the same. I don't think there was a version of the 1773 with the faster step rates like in the 1772. > If somebody's got a 1773 and wants a 1770, I'll happily swap 'em, just so I have > one in house. If you find a gate array TRS-80 Model 4 then you'd have your 1773. -- Eric Dittman dittman@dittman.net Check out the DEC Enthusiasts Club at http://www.dittman.net/ From optimus at canit.se Sat Oct 6 19:36:56 2001 From: optimus at canit.se (Iggy Drougge) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:32 2005 Subject: 6502 BASIC or Assembler and Intel 8271/WDC 1770 info req'd In-Reply-To: <000f01c14ea8$afa6c8e0$b0007ad5@phoenix> Message-ID: <1391.680T2800T966373optimus@canit.se> Philip Pemberton skrev: >I've got two Western Design Center W65SC02s (14MHz >6502s! Woohoo!) to play >with, plus a Synertek SY6502A (the 2MHz one), two W65SC22s (10MHz WDC 6502s) >and two Synertek 6522s (1MHz). 14 MHz? You're kidding! That's criminally fast! > 2) Has anyone got a schematic for a fairly half-decent 16-colour (or >better) video card that can be modified to work on a 6502? I've had a look >at the NASCOM schematics but I've heard Bad Things(tm) about the NASCOM >video system. Aparrently Gemini and a few others produced colour video cards >for the NASCOM. Anyone got schematics for these? Graphics would also be nice >(the NASCOM video system is text only). Tony mentioned teletext chips a few days ago. Don't know if those perhaps are only 8-colour, though. Tony? > BTW, I'd like to avoid obsolete components if that's at all possible. >I've got a Hitachi HD6845 but if the 40-odd page datasheet is anything to go >by, it's a real dog to use... And it only works in monochrome. I have got a >MOS Tech 6568(?) VIC-II, the same one used in the UK Commodore 64. The PSU >for this C64 is fried, took out some of the support components with it. The VIC is quite well-documented, and it would certainly be interesting to see it in a non-C64, 14 MHz 6502 system. =) -- En ligne avec Thor 2.6a. Vi m?ste vara r?dda om varandra - det ?r v?rt enda reciproka pronomen. From optimus at canit.se Sat Oct 6 19:14:29 2001 From: optimus at canit.se (Iggy Drougge) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:32 2005 Subject: IBM ROM BASIC or lack thereof In-Reply-To: <3BBE024C.11211.41E512F@localhost> Message-ID: <478.680T1450T745467optimus@canit.se> Lawrence Walker skrev: > >>> FLAMEBAIT WARNING<<< >>> FLAMEBAIT WARNING<<< [snip] Lawrence, WIMP is an acronym for Windows, Icons, Menus and Pointers. It's not an insult. I think we thus can establish that your attack was totally uncessary. (I'm surprised that I didn't flame him. Must be because I've just eaten) -- En ligne avec Thor 2.6a. G? med i SUGA, Swedish Usergroup of Amiga! WWW: http://swedish.usergroup.amiga.tm/ BBS: 08-6582572, telnet://sua.ath.cx:42512 From optimus at canit.se Sat Oct 6 19:51:44 2001 From: optimus at canit.se (Iggy Drougge) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:32 2005 Subject: Is there a source for veroboard in the U.S.? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <2153.680T2200T1115749optimus@canit.se> Tony Duell skrev: >> If the traces are of the right pitch, you may just cut away any superfluous >> traces from a veroboard. The common pitch is 2,5 mm, I think, but in some >Certainlty in the UK, the common pitch for stripboard is 0.1". That's >sufficiently different from 2.5mm to be noticeable over a >reasonable-sized edge connector. We also have 0.15" pitch (which is very >hard to find now), which will not fit US 0.156" connectors... I'm not familiar with that other measuring system... >The problem is that most stripboard is single-sided and most edge >connectors are double sided. I have seen double-sided stripboard once, >I've even seen X-Y stripboard (tracks run horizontally on one side, >vertically on the other). But those types are not stocked by the local >electronics shop To think that I didn't think of that! Oh well, here's just something which happened to be in my browser at the moment, on a related topic. It's about making an adapter for running Japanese games on Western SEGA Master Systems, which involves a card-edge connector. ------8<-------- The Japanese connector is a 44-pin one of a very unusual pitch (0.125inch I think), which is very difficult to get hold of. I did find one company which manufactured them, but I'd have had to buy 1000 of them :-( I made my adapter by cutting (hacksawing) a standard 50-way 0.1inch connector into segments of six pins each, with four pins on each of the end segments, kind of like this... __ ___ ___ ___ ___ ___ ___ __ | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | |__| |___| |___| |___| |___| |___| |___| |__| || ||| ||| ||| ||| ||| ||| || Note the gaps in between each segment. One of the middle segments was discarded (50-6=44) and the remaining ones separated and glued in position on a standard SMS cartridge shell. Then the connector pins could simply be wired to the corresponding points of the cartridge board (the ROM having been removed). The whole process was very tedious, but the resulting adapter does work (thankfully!) -------8<-------- -- En ligne avec Thor 2.6a. Allt ?r under kontroll, och caps lock ?r bredvid. From optimus at canit.se Sat Oct 6 19:46:57 2001 From: optimus at canit.se (Iggy Drougge) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:32 2005 Subject: IBM ROM BASIC or lack thereof In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <2227.680T2850T1066695optimus@canit.se> Tony Duell skrev: >[HP's 'qaudrature' adapter] >> >It's not as if the adapter takes the PS2 protocol, undoes the damage, and >> >gives you the quadrature signals back again. >> >> No, that sounds overtly involved. >Although I belive that such adapters do exist (I think I came across them >for Amigas). Basically a microcontroller (probably a PIC) which you >connected a normal PS/2 mouse to one side, and a quadrature mouse port >to the other. THe microcontroller decoded the PS/2 mouse data and output >the right number of quadrature-style pulses. They certainly exist for Amigas and Ataris, but what I thought was going a bit over the top would be to decode PS/2 serial data into quadrature only to re-encode it into HIL data, when you could probably go right at the serial data instead. >> >You said 'trial and error', which I took to mean something like 'Oh look, >> >this cable fits that (RS232) port at one end and the back of the printer >> >at the other. Let's use it for that'. Exit magic smoke... >> >> Well, if ports aren't labelled, there is no real way to find out. >My first reaction is to 'Read The Fine Manual'. Alas most manuals these >days are anything but fine, and probably wouldn't contain the necessary info. I've heard that today's manuals (mind you, I haven't bought a computer fresh from a shop since 1993, and that was the only time ever =) are only supplied in computer-readable formats on a CD. Bloody lot of good that will do you when the CD drive is malfunctioning and the OS blown kingdom come. >In which case it's time to pull the cover and look at the connections to >the socket. How many pins are wired, where are the grounds, and what sort >of chips does it connect to (TTL? LSI I/O devices (which are likely to use >TTL levels), known RS232/RS422/etc buffers? That should give some info as >to what the port is for. I wonder if even I'd be able to do that, and then I consider myself a quite knowledgeable computer user. No, I think that you should be able to hook up things to the ports on your computer without taking the top off and resorting to a multimeter. =) -- En ligne avec Thor 2.6a. /"\ \ / ASCII Ribbon X Campaign Against / \ HTML Mail! From optimus at canit.se Sat Oct 6 20:18:20 2001 From: optimus at canit.se (Iggy Drougge) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:32 2005 Subject: Found WANG boards In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <457.680T1000T1384933optimus@canit.se> Tony Duell skrev: >> mono emulator card and one low-res cards. There was another card with two= >> BNCs >> and a switch, could be a grpaihcs card, too. There was a winchester >Could it be a BNC and a TNC connector (TNC looks like BNC, but with a >screw thread for locking the plug and socket together)? There's a Wang >serial interface that uses a TNC and BNC connector. I went to look, and yes, the other one's a screw-on. -- En ligne avec Thor 2.6a. From optimus at canit.se Sat Oct 6 20:17:40 2001 From: optimus at canit.se (Iggy Drougge) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:32 2005 Subject: ZX Spectrum internals (Was: ZX81 kits) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <2758.680T2000T1375921optimus@canit.se> Tony Duell skrev: >> >> What chips would you use? I assume that the Speccy uses one chip for its >> >> entire video generation, but where would you split the functions? >> >> >I should have said _standard_ chips. Once you start allowing ULAs (as the >> >ZX81, Spectrum, Oric, etc all used) then it's easy to do video in a >> >couple of chips. >> >> Of course I don't expect you to be making your own ULAs. =) >No, and you know that _I_ wouldn't suggest using an FPGA. Not for a 1-off >project, certainly.... How in the world does one make those, anyway? I haven't got the slightest how one could "burn" devices which are capable of even replacing a CPU. Does one "burn" at all? >> >Didn't we go through this a couple of weeks back? The 2 chips I would >> >start with are an SAA5243 Teletext display chip (or an SAA5245 for the >> >States) and an 8K*8 static RAM (6264). You need to get a 6MHz clock from >> >somewhere (maybe another chip for that, if you can't also use it for the >> >CPU clock in some way) and maybe you want to buffer the video output >> >lines. >> >> Teletext? That's a funny idea. >What's the problem? It gives be a simple 40*25 text display in a handful >of chips... No problem really, it's just so simple that it seems a bit unorthodox. When you think about it, Videotex (Prestel, Micronet et al for you in the UK) looked very much^H^H^H^H^H^H^H^H^H^H^H^H^H^Hwas identical to teletext. And the 6845-generated eight-colour ABC 800 screen looks very similar to that as well. >> >If it's another 40 pin chip, then that's the custom ULA chip that >> >includes most of the glue logic. >> >> Is that like a lot of 74138s or something? >It's rather more than that (I assume that's the address decoder part, >which is in the ULA). It also handles the DRAM timing, most of the video >display, and so on. I thought one of the selling points of the Z80 was its built-in ability to handle DRAM. But perhaps it's lacking the 6502's ability to easily share memory with other devices by only doing memory accessing every second or fourth cycle. But what does glue logic really mean? >> >Does the Spectrum really have a separate character generator ROM. Doesn't >> >sound right to me... >> >> I wouldn't know, but this is the chip which somehow enables Swedish >> characters. Is it a patched BASIC ROM? >I suspect it is. Certainly if the keyboard layout is different then the >BASIC ROM must have been modified. Couldn't Sinclair have socketed the BASIC? It must have been a lot of work to piggy-back it onto each imported Spectrum, unless the customers had to do it by themselves. -- En ligne avec Thor 2.6a. G? med i SUGA, Swedish Usergroup of Amiga! WWW: http://swedish.usergroup.amiga.tm/ BBS: 08-6582572, telnet://sua.ath.cx:42512 From optimus at canit.se Sat Oct 6 20:05:28 2001 From: optimus at canit.se (Iggy Drougge) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:32 2005 Subject: Squealing CRTs In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <1885.680T1400T1254901optimus@canit.se> Tony Duell skrev: >> >The squeal from most monitors/TVs comes from the flyback transformer >> >(horizontal output transformer, line output transformer, call it what yo= >> u >> >will). THe core vibrates at the horizontal scan frequency. >> >> Is that the neck at the back of the tube? I see a key-like screw protrudi= >> ng at >> a 90=B0 angle from the neck, which seems to be coupled to a metal band wr= >> apped >> across the neck. >No, that's the deflection yoke. The flyback transformer is on the PCB >normally. The easy way to find it most of the time is to follow the EHT >cable from the flare of the CRT back to a plastic-encased lump on the >PCB. That's normally the flyback transformer (it could be a voltage >multiplier in some older colour monitors, but I don't think that's an >issue here). All right, I stole some sticks of hot glue from the scale modellers and poured it onto the thing which looks like this: ,-----------. | _ | | | |WARNING| | | | HIGH | | | |VOLTAGE| | | | | |_| |_______| It sits on the main board in the monitor section, connected to that dangerous red wire fit with a suction cup onto the CRT itself. But it doesn't really look like something which will vibrate or rattle in any way. I've done some reading up on flybacks, though, and apparently there are some advanced wirings inside that package. Then I let it dry and turned it on. Still the same horrible sound. I walked around the thing for a bit, and it seemed as though the noise emanated from the black cage containg what is probably the mains transformer. A recent posting in the ongoing "wobbly PET" thread suggests that some sheet steel contraption inside the PSU is dissolving and vibrating at mains frequency. Could this be the case here? -- En ligne avec Thor 2.6a. The generation of random numbers is too important to be left to chance. From avickers at solutionengineers.com Sat Oct 6 20:07:40 2001 From: avickers at solutionengineers.com (Adrian Vickers) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:32 2005 Subject: CBM8032 - wobbly screen (The saga continues) In-Reply-To: References: <5.1.0.14.0.20011006195634.026c8330@192.168.1.2> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20011007020549.0244c940@192.168.1.2> At 21:36 06/10/2001, you wrote: > > 1st attempt: "build" some shielding out of aluminium foil to go around the > > transformer. Which I did - all rough & ready stuff, with just a bit of > >Aluminium won't do a darn thing about 50Hz magnetic fields. You want >something like mild steel, or better still mu-metal (if you can get it at >a sensible price, or indeed, at all). Okay, that makes sense. I *should* be able to get hold of some of this "mu-metal" stuff - I know people at an electicity/electronics R&D lab.... :) > > Clearly, therefore, the wobble is induced by the monitor. There must be a > ^^^^^^^ >transformer, surely... Ahem. Yes... Typing to quickly for my brain again, I'm afraid. >Now, if half of that goes open-circut (dead diode, bad connection, etc) >the machine will most likely still work, but the stray field from the >transformer will increase. It's worth checking this... I will have a poke around with my multimeter tomorrow... -- Cheers, Ade. Be where it's at, B-Racing! http://b-racing.co.uk -------------- next part -------------- --- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.282 / Virus Database: 150 - Release Date: 25/09/2001 From avickers at solutionengineers.com Sat Oct 6 20:14:30 2001 From: avickers at solutionengineers.com (Adrian Vickers) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:32 2005 Subject: CBM8032 - wobbly screen (The saga continues) In-Reply-To: <3BBF8296.2948D7C7@silke.rt.schwaben.de> References: <5.1.0.14.0.20010928221144.00aaa2d0@192.168.1.2> <5.1.0.14.0.20011006195634.026c8330@192.168.1.2> <001a01c14ea7$f5be9f20$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20011007020756.02451778@192.168.1.2> Hi Michael, welcome to the list! I hope it proves as useful to you as it has to me (so far) - I only hope I can be as useful myself someday... At 23:15 06/10/2001, you wrote: >Tha most probable cause is indeed the transformer, more precisely: the >aging core >of the transformer. This core usually is made of a lot of thin sheets of >steel. [snip excellent description - and yes, eddies is correct] >Now, this is the point: With old transformers, this insulation starts to >literally crumble >away, which leads to a significantly larger stray magnetic field around >the transformer. I can see how this could be the case. for instance, I can't believe that Commodore would have let the units out of the door 20 years ago with as much screen wobble as is present in mine. In fact - I know they didn't, as about 10 years ago I used an 8032-SK for quite some time, and that definitely didn't wobble. >Shielding of the old transformer is no real option. You would need what >we Germans >call "mu-Metal", which is a special alloy of steel and other things i >have long >forgotten but that make it EXPENSIVE. >It is magnetic, but not a good conductor, which make it ideal for >shielding magnetic >fields. Oh, I don't know. I can probably get hold of some for relatively little money (beer tokens, if that). >You could try a shielding out of steel sheets, but they might get hot if >the stray >currents induced by the transformers magnetic field are too large. And >the shielding >effect is not too good... I may give something like that a whirl, just to check it is the problem. I'll also be having a poke around to make sure it's not being unnecessarily amplified by a component failure. And the caps are still on the list... :) When I've finished this one, I've got two more to do.... AND there's another 8032 to breath life back into (that one is more seriously broken). I can see I'm not going to have much time left over to do my motor racing.... :) >I live somewhere in southern Germany, which is not that bad. No, >really.... 8-) Well, it's got to be warmer and drier than the UK.... -- Cheers, Ade. Be where it's at, B-Racing! http://b-racing.co.uk -------------- next part -------------- --- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.282 / Virus Database: 150 - Release Date: 25/09/2001 From avickers at solutionengineers.com Sat Oct 6 20:20:02 2001 From: avickers at solutionengineers.com (Adrian Vickers) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:32 2005 Subject: CBM8032 - wobbly screen (The saga continues) In-Reply-To: <004001c14ebd$b8dc10e0$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> References: <5.1.0.14.0.20010928221144.00aaa2d0@192.168.1.2> <5.1.0.14.0.20011006195634.026c8330@192.168.1.2> <001a01c14ea7$f5be9f20$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> <3BBF8296.2948D7C7@silke.rt.schwaben.de> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20011007021502.02442b88@192.168.1.2> At 00:15 07/10/2001, Dick wrote: >What Michael says here makes a great deal of sense. However, as I have a >number >of units which, like the Commodore box, have a transformer of considerable age >in their power supply located near the yoke of the CRT, yet have none of the >wobble described here, it seems to me that one could probably allow the >transformer in the Commodore unit to remain at least long enough to check for >some sort of disruption of the power supply to the sweep >circuits. Transformers >should last longer than this 20 years or so, while the capacitors have reached >their shelf-life limits, I think. Yes, I'm still concerned about the capacitors. However, caps shouldn't induce the wobble in one orientation, but not another.... So the transformer is my current prime suspect. >Partly, I guess, this bias is because I'm quite certain it will be a lot of >trouble replacing the original transformer, though a kit with appropriate >spec's >might be solution. In any case, one can check the power supply connections to >the CRT circuitry without leaving the house. This being Saturday, I'd say >Monday will be soon enough to go searching for a replacement transformer. Monday will be soon enough for everything.... I'm with the Irish on this one (when told of a Spanish word - Manyana (sp?) - meaning "as God wills it", the Irishman pondered for a while then retorted "We have no word or phrase which conveys such a sense of *urgency*...) Anyway, I shall probably try sticking a sheet of iron or steel in there; hopefully that will show an improvement. If so, I can try to get hold of some of this mu-metal stuff, and give that a whirl. Then there's... (well, see some of my other posts for the rapidly growing to-do list :) >Let's keep our fingers crossed ... Indeed so! Thanks again! -- Cheers, Ade. Be where it's at, B-Racing! http://b-racing.co.uk -------------- next part -------------- --- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.282 / Virus Database: 150 - Release Date: 25/09/2001 From dittman at dittman.net Sat Oct 6 20:25:57 2001 From: dittman at dittman.net (Eric Dittman) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:32 2005 Subject: 6502 BASIC or Assembler and Intel 8271/WDC 1770 info req'd In-Reply-To: from "Tony Duell" at Oct 07, 2001 12:17:46 AM Message-ID: <200110070125.f971PvR01989@narnia.int.dittman.net> > > The later (gate array) TRS-80 Model 4 systems used a 1773 FDC, which was > > Interesting. The older model 4s (like mine) have a 1793 -- the floppy > controller board is indentical to that in a model 3. I'd assumed they > used that board in the gate array versions as well. > > Maybe they did (in the early gate array machines), and then changed to > the 1773 for the last ones. I don't see any reason why that couldn't have > been done -- as you said the 1773 and 1793 are pretty much compatible. The early systems weren't gate array systems. The gate array Model 4 and 4P systems had the FDC and RS232 integrated on the mainboard. If you have a separate FDC and/or RS232 board then your mainboard is not a gate array model. -- Eric Dittman dittman@dittman.net Check out the DEC Enthusiasts Club at http://www.dittman.net/ From Diff at Mac.com Sat Oct 6 21:14:31 2001 From: Diff at Mac.com (Zach Malone) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:32 2005 Subject: Oddball memory (?) sticks.... References: Message-ID: <001e01c14ed5$cd92b8f0$6401a8c0@laboffice> > Then what is that socket slightly smaller and apart from the memory > sockets on the mainboard of my color turbo slab? According to http://www.obsolyte.com/next/, it is a DSP chip, allowing the DSP to be expanded. Zach From red at bears.org Sat Oct 6 22:04:18 2001 From: red at bears.org (r. 'bear' stricklin) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:32 2005 Subject: Oddball memory (?) sticks.... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Sat, 6 Oct 2001, Absurdly Obtuse wrote: > Then what is that socket slightly smaller and apart from the memory > sockets on the mainboard of my color turbo slab? As someone else already pointed it, it is indeed a socket for DSP RAM expansion. NeXT sold a 56 KB upgrade SIMM for that slot, and at least one third-party hardware manufacturer sold an upgrade SIMM in the >256KB range. Very few people bought them, though, so they're incredibly difficult to find. OTOH it does mean that very little software exists to take advantage of the additional DSP RAM. I'm not sure I could name any off the top of my head. ok r. From edick at idcomm.com Sat Oct 6 23:01:13 2001 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:32 2005 Subject: 6502 BASIC or Assembler and Intel 8271/WDC 1770 info req'd References: Message-ID: <000b01c14ee4$b4e374c0$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> Apparently, though I have no specific knowledge of it, the RS FDC left something to be desired, as there were several aftermarket products that plugged in to the main board to take its place. Since the stock board used the "official" Western Digital circuitry, I can't think of one good reason why they should have had trouble with the thing, but if there hadn't been problems, there wouldn't have been the third-party market either. The fact that there was a 1773 available for them to use was sufficient justifiation for switching circuits, though. The 1793+1691+2143 worked fine, but required alignment before it could be shipped, while the all-digital 1773 required no alignment procedure, and wouldn't get out of adjustment over time. This saved quite a bit of labor. Dick From: "Tony Duell" To: Sent: Saturday, October 06, 2001 5:17 PM Subject: Re: 6502 BASIC or Assembler and Intel 8271/WDC 1770 info req'd > > The later (gate array) TRS-80 Model 4 systems used a 1773 FDC, which was > > Interesting. The older model 4s (like mine) have a 1793 -- the floppy > controller board is indentical to that in a model 3. I'd assumed they > used that board in the gate array versions as well. > > Maybe they did (in the early gate array machines), and then changed to > the 1773 for the last ones. I don't see any reason why that couldn't have > been done -- as you said the 1773 and 1793 are pretty much compatible. > > -tony > > From fernande at internet1.net Sat Oct 6 23:39:22 2001 From: fernande at internet1.net (Full SCSI) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:32 2005 Subject: older SGI and Mac equipment available for free In-Reply-To: <15295.23268.927347.701308@phaduka.neurotica.com> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20011007003744.009e7080@mailhost.internet1.net> Why are you selling the Mog Dave? I'd love to have one of the SGI 4D35s but I'm in Michigan :-( Chad Fernandez Michigan, USA At 03:26 PM 10/6/01 -0400, you wrote: > Hey folks. I've got four or five SGI Personal Iris machines >here...4D20, 4D25, and 4D35, in various configurations and in various >states of operability. I also have three Macintosh Quadra 950s. I >offer them for free to any interested party for pickup in Laurel, MD >within the next two weeks or so. I am moving, and they need to go. > > In addition, there's a list of [non-free] stuff that I have available >at http://www.neurotica.com/available.html. > > -Dave > >-- >Dave McGuire >Laurel, MD From donm at cts.com Sun Oct 7 00:25:06 2001 From: donm at cts.com (Don Maslin) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:32 2005 Subject: 6502 BASIC or Assembler and Intel 8271/WDC 1770 info req'd In-Reply-To: <000b01c14ee4$b4e374c0$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> Message-ID: On Sat, 6 Oct 2001, Richard Erlacher wrote: > Apparently, though I have no specific knowledge of it, the RS FDC left something > to be desired, as there were several aftermarket products that plugged in to the > main board to take its place. Since the stock board used the "official" Western > Digital circuitry, I can't think of one good reason why they should have had > trouble with the thing, but if there hadn't been problems, there wouldn't have > been the third-party market either. Probably to provide the DS capability that the factory issue lacked. - don > The fact that there was a 1773 available for them to use was sufficient > justifiation for switching circuits, though. The 1793+1691+2143 worked fine, > but required alignment before it could be shipped, while the all-digital 1773 > required no alignment procedure, and wouldn't get out of adjustment over time. > This saved quite a bit of labor. > > Dick > > > From: "Tony Duell" > To: > Sent: Saturday, October 06, 2001 5:17 PM > Subject: Re: 6502 BASIC or Assembler and Intel 8271/WDC 1770 info req'd > > > > > The later (gate array) TRS-80 Model 4 systems used a 1773 FDC, which was > > > > Interesting. The older model 4s (like mine) have a 1793 -- the floppy > > controller board is indentical to that in a model 3. I'd assumed they > > used that board in the gate array versions as well. > > > > Maybe they did (in the early gate array machines), and then changed to > > the 1773 for the last ones. I don't see any reason why that couldn't have > > been done -- as you said the 1773 and 1793 are pretty much compatible. > > > > -tony > > > > > > From erd_6502 at yahoo.com Sun Oct 7 00:46:58 2001 From: erd_6502 at yahoo.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:32 2005 Subject: Is there a source for veroboard in the U.S.? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20011007054658.27838.qmail@web20106.mail.yahoo.com> --- Tony Duell wrote: > > > > I wanted to bang out a quick thing involving bussed lines (an LED > > display for a Dragon's Lair game, if you're curious)... > Veroboard is (used to be?) a trade name used by BICC-Vero. The generic > name for what you are looking for is 'Stripboard' That's _just_ the kind of info I was looking for; thanks. > Getting it that wide is going to be hard (at least over here). The > largest common sizes are designed to stand upright in a 3U card frame, so > about 4". I think 4" by 6" (approx) is a fairly common size. I found some strip board this weekend at an Akron-area electronics shop (www.philcap.com). It was scorchingly expensive; but these guys have, among other things, a Vector-brand continuous-wrap wire-wrapping tool on the wall for $75! They _do_ have some stuff that's cheap, but, as we've recently discussed about other shops, they don't seem to mark down prices to move slow inventory. > > I went to school in England in 1985 - New College, specifically... > > Ah,, the_other_place (sorry, couldn't resist...) :-) Yes, "the other place"... I almost planned a trip to Cambridge that summer to meet Stephen Hawking, but it turned out that he was suffering from pneumonia and I wouldn't have been able to meet him if I'd gone. I _did_ get to read his books at the Bodlean Library (I was taking Physics and Calc back home; he uses symbols I'd never even _heard_ of ;-) -ethan __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? NEW from Yahoo! GeoCities - quick and easy web site hosting, just $8.95/month. http://geocities.yahoo.com/ps/info1 From ms at silke.rt.schwaben.de Sun Oct 7 04:43:01 2001 From: ms at silke.rt.schwaben.de (Michael Schneider) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:32 2005 Subject: CBM8032 - wobbly screen (The saga continues) References: <5.1.0.14.0.20010928221144.00aaa2d0@192.168.1.2> <5.1.0.14.0.20011006195634.026c8330@192.168.1.2> <001a01c14ea7$f5be9f20$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> <3BBF8296.2948D7C7@silke.rt.schwaben.de> <004001c14ebd$b8dc10e0$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> Message-ID: <3BC023A5.290B1D2B@silke.rt.schwaben.de> Well, it's not that the transformer HAS to die.... Adrian should try to listen to the thing: If he clearly hears the transformer humming under load, throw it away. Or: place small magnetic objects very close to the transformers core. You need a considerably large magnetic field on the surface of the core to influence the electrons in the CRT's beam, which are, after all, still a few inches away. So, the "small objects" might move... Oh, another idea: Adrian, have you tried to place the transformer on the table, outside of the casing? I mean: leave as much as possible of the original cabling in place, just put the transformer out of the way? If this helps, you know what to do 8-) Richard Erlacher wrote: > > What Michael says here makes a great deal of sense. However, as I have a number > of units which, like the Commodore box, have a transformer of considerable age > in their power supply located near the yoke of the CRT, yet have none of the > wobble described here, it seems to me that one could probably allow the > transformer in the Commodore unit to remain at least long enough to check for > some sort of disruption of the power supply to the sweep circuits. Transformers > should last longer than this 20 years or so, while the capacitors have reached > their shelf-life limits, I think. > > Partly, I guess, this bias is because I'm quite certain it will be a lot of > trouble replacing the original transformer, though a kit with appropriate spec's > might be solution. In any case, one can check the power supply connections to > the CRT circuitry without leaving the house. This being Saturday, I'd say > Monday will be soon enough to go searching for a replacement transformer. > > Let's keep our fingers crossed ... > > Dick > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Michael Schneider" > To: > Sent: Saturday, October 06, 2001 4:15 PM > Subject: Re: CBM8032 - wobbly screen (The saga continues) > > > I have to disagree. > > > > What Adrian describes are the "classical" symptoms for electromagnetic > > inductions, > > resp. distortions caused by this physical effect. Grounding and > > shielding with tin > > foil does not help, since it's the transformers magnetic field (as > > opposed to an > > electrostatic field, that would be shielded by the grounded foil) that > > deflects the > > electrons of the CRT beam and causes the wobble. > > > > Tha most probable cause is indeed the transformer, more precisely: the > > aging core > > of the transformer. This core usually is made of a lot of thin sheets of > > steel. > > The purpose of the core is to a) couple the primary and secondary coils > > very > > closely and, more important b) to "contain" and keep the electromagnetic > > field > > closely within the transformer. Well, ok, that's a bit simplistic, but > > you'll get > > the idea. The core is not made out of a compact piece of steel since > > stray currents > > would be induced within the steel, heating up the core and wasting > > energy. This stray > > currents ("eddies" they're called in english, i think...) would be > > induced perpendicular > > to the orientation of the sheets the transformer core is made of. > > Thus, these sheets must be insulated by very thin layers of plastic or > > resin or something > > similar. > > Now, this is the point: With old transformers, this insulation starts to > > literally crumble > > away, which leads to a significantly larger stray magnetic field around > > the transformer. > > Later, you can usually **HEAR** this effect: the steel sheets start to > > humm with the > > line frequency. The transformer is close to dead now... > > > > To make this log story short: Yes, a new transformer should help. New, > > like in > > "factory fresh"... > > Even better would be one of these fancy and expensive torroid > > trasformers, since > > they have literally no measurable magnetic field outside the core. > > > > Shielding of the old transformer is no real option. You would need what > > we Germans > > call "mu-Metal", which is a special alloy of steel and other things i > > have long > > forgotten but that make it EXPENSIVE. > > It is magnetic, but not a good conductor, which make it ideal for > > shielding magnetic > > fields. > > > > You could try a shielding out of steel sheets, but they might get hot if > > the stray > > currents induced by the transformers magnetic field are too large. And > > the shielding > > effect is not too good... > > > > > > Oh, and by the way: I'm new to this list... 8-) > > Hi, i'm Michael and i am collecting old VAXen. > > I live somewhere in southern Germany, which is not that bad. No, > > really.... 8-) > > > > Cheers > > > > ms > > > > > > P.S.: sorry for the long post... > > Richard Erlacher wrote: > > > > > > I doubt a new transformer will help this very much. If this box ever worked > > > right, then something's changed, and the filter CAPs are a prime suspect > after > > > all these years. I'd look for a failed diode in a 4-diode bridge too, if > that's > > > what they used. However, what's more likely is a problem in the wiring, > since > > > the wiring path changes as you open/close the lid. Since increased > shielding > > > didn't do much, perhaps you should look at the power connections, as the > cabling > > > is perturbed whenever the box is opened. If you check underneath (on the > solder > > > side) the supply connections on the main board and, more likely, on the CRT > > > board, perhaps you'll see a deteriorated connection or possible damaged > trace > > > that moves around when you wiggle the power wiring. It could even be a > badly > > > seated/latched contact in a MOLEX shell if that's what they used. I don't > think > > > Commodore made the CRT board, and they may have used a pretty shoddy > monitor. > > > > > > You've apparently got to find something that's different between when the > box is > > > open versus when it's closed. > > > > > > Dick > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > > From: "Adrian Vickers" > > > To: > > > Sent: Saturday, October 06, 2001 1:06 PM > > > Subject: Re: CBM8032 - wobbly screen (The saga continues) > > > > > > > Curiouser and curiouser... > > > > > > > > Today, I happened to have the machine opened up to effect some keyboard > > > > repairs (i.e. a jolly good clean up). Having successfuly removed all > traces > > > > of key bounce, non-working keys, etc., and feeling justifiably please with > > > > myself, it occurred to me to try a couple of things WRT the wobbly screen. > > > > > > > > 1st attempt: "build" some shielding out of aluminium foil to go around the > > > > transformer. Which I did - all rough & ready stuff, with just a bit of > > > > insulating tape over the transformer connections to make sure they didn't > > > > short out. No effect - the screen wobbled its way along as ususal. > > > > > > > > 2nd attempt: Same as above, but this time I made absolutely sure the tin > > > > foil was earthed, by screwing it onto the chassis via one of the > > > > transformer screws. Same effect as 1st attempt: FA. > > > > > > > > 3rd attempt: Getting desparate now, I wrapped a load of tin foil around > the > > > > signal cables (having removed it from the transformer). Decided to leave > > > > the lid up when I switched on and bingo! Steady as a rock (literally no > > > > movement whatsoever. Refusing to get too excited, I carefully brought the > > > > lid down (holding the signal cables so as not to let the tin foil touch > the > > > > circuit board - bah! The wobble returned. > > > > > > > > 4th attempt: Removed all tinfoil, started up with the lid open, no wobble. > > > > The wobble appears progressively as the monitor approaches the transformer > > > > (the lid down position). > > > > > > > > 5th attempt: Put a sheet of tinfoil over the whole of the bottom of the > > > > monitor section. No effect - wobble remained. > > > > > > > > Clearly, therefore, the wobble is induced by the monitor. There must be a > > > > fairly monster field coming off the transformer interfering with the > > > > electron gun aiming circuit(s), or something like that. > > > > > > > > The question is: What *would* shield it? Do I need some thin steel or > > > > copper, for example? Presumably, the shielding needs to be earthed (not > > > > difficult, there's plenty of earth points around there. Or, would it be > > > > easier to simply replace the big transformer with a smaller modern one? > > > > > > > > TIA! > > > > -- > > > > Cheers, Ade. > > > > Be where it's at, B-Racing! > > > > http://b-racing.co.uk > > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ > -- > > > > > > > > > > > --- > > > > Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. > > > > Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). > > > > Version: 6.0.282 / Virus Database: 150 - Release Date: 25/09/2001 > > > > > > > > -- > > Michael Schneider email (home): ms@silke.rt.schwaben.de > > Schleestr.8 http://www.vaxcluster.de > > 72766 Reutlingen Phone: +49 7121 492781 > > Germany FAX: +49 7121 479331 > > > > People disagree with me. I just ignore them. > > (Linus Torvalds) > > > > -- Michael Schneider email (home): ms@silke.rt.schwaben.de Schleestr.8 http://www.vaxcluster.de 72766 Reutlingen Phone: +49 7121 492781 Germany FAX: +49 7121 479331 People disagree with me. I just ignore them. (Linus Torvalds) From ms at silke.rt.schwaben.de Sun Oct 7 04:53:58 2001 From: ms at silke.rt.schwaben.de (Michael Schneider) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:32 2005 Subject: Squealing CRTs References: <1885.680T1400T1254901optimus@canit.se> Message-ID: <3BC02636.6CF1B54C@silke.rt.schwaben.de> In a way, yes: if you have a switched power supply, it could be (rather small) mains transformer that is vibrating at high frequencies. But with an analog PSU, it humms at 50-60 Hz, this is not "squealing", no.... OTOH, flybacks are often sealed in plastic and vibrate **inside** the sealing. I never managed to stop a monitor from beeping and squealing (nice word 8-), except by replacing the flyback transformer or by treating it with a very small hammer (really!!), trying to "shake it into shape". Don't do this at home! ms Iggy Drougge wrote: > > Tony Duell skrev: > > >> >The squeal from most monitors/TVs comes from the flyback transformer > >> >(horizontal output transformer, line output transformer, call it what yo= > >> u > >> >will). THe core vibrates at the horizontal scan frequency. > >> > >> Is that the neck at the back of the tube? I see a key-like screw protrudi= > >> ng at > >> a 90=B0 angle from the neck, which seems to be coupled to a metal band wr= > >> apped > >> across the neck. > > >No, that's the deflection yoke. The flyback transformer is on the PCB > >normally. The easy way to find it most of the time is to follow the EHT > >cable from the flare of the CRT back to a plastic-encased lump on the > >PCB. That's normally the flyback transformer (it could be a voltage > >multiplier in some older colour monitors, but I don't think that's an > >issue here). > > All right, I stole some sticks of hot glue from the scale modellers and poured > it onto the thing which looks like this: > > ,-----------. > | _ | > | | |WARNING| > | | | HIGH | > | | |VOLTAGE| > | | | | > |_| |_______| > > It sits on the main board in the monitor section, connected to that dangerous > red wire fit with a suction cup onto the CRT itself. > > But it doesn't really look like something which will vibrate or rattle in any > way. I've done some reading up on flybacks, though, and apparently there are > some advanced wirings inside that package. > > Then I let it dry and turned it on. Still the same horrible sound. I walked > around the thing for a bit, and it seemed as though the noise emanated from > the black cage containg what is probably the mains transformer. > > A recent posting in the ongoing "wobbly PET" thread suggests that some sheet > steel contraption inside the PSU is dissolving and vibrating at mains > frequency. Could this be the case here? > > -- > En ligne avec Thor 2.6a. > > The generation of random numbers is too important to be left to chance. -- Michael Schneider email (home): ms@silke.rt.schwaben.de Schleestr.8 http://www.vaxcluster.de 72766 Reutlingen Phone: +49 7121 492781 Germany FAX: +49 7121 479331 People disagree with me. I just ignore them. (Linus Torvalds) From ms at silke.rt.schwaben.de Sun Oct 7 05:00:56 2001 From: ms at silke.rt.schwaben.de (Michael Schneider) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:32 2005 Subject: CBM8032 - wobbly screen (The saga continues) References: <5.1.0.14.0.20010928221144.00aaa2d0@192.168.1.2> <5.1.0.14.0.20011006195634.026c8330@192.168.1.2> <001a01c14ea7$f5be9f20$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> <5.1.0.14.0.20011007020756.02451778@192.168.1.2> Message-ID: <3BC027D8.F1DAFFA7@silke.rt.schwaben.de> Adrian Vickers wrote: > > Hi Michael, welcome to the list! I hope it proves as useful to you as it > has to me (so far) - I only hope I can be as useful myself someday... Thank you for the warm welcome! > > At 23:15 06/10/2001, you wrote: > > >Tha most probable cause is indeed the transformer, more precisely: the ... > > I can see how this could be the case. for instance, I can't believe that > Commodore would have let the units out of the door 20 years ago with as > much screen wobble as is present in mine. In fact - I know they didn't, as > about 10 years ago I used an 8032-SK for quite some time, and that > definitely didn't wobble. That's true. But they let out units with rather cheap transformers. It has always been a significant cost factor to use a good, high quality transformer core. I mean, the best ones come from Germay, right ? 8-) > > >Shielding of the old transformer is no real option. You would need what > >we Germans ... > >call "mu-Metal", which is a special alloy of steel and other things i ... > > >I live somewhere in southern Germany, which is not that bad. No, > >really.... 8-) > > Well, it's got to be warmer and drier than the UK.... Hmmm, the Romans did'nt want to settle here in Reutlingen, because it has been a swamp area, whith lot's of rain! But it is warm sometimes, that's true... ms > > -- > Cheers, Ade. > Be where it's at, B-Racing! > http://b-racing.co.uk > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > --- > Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. > Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). > Version: 6.0.282 / Virus Database: 150 - Release Date: 25/09/2001 -- Michael Schneider email (home): ms@silke.rt.schwaben.de Schleestr.8 http://www.vaxcluster.de 72766 Reutlingen Phone: +49 7121 492781 Germany FAX: +49 7121 479331 People disagree with me. I just ignore them. (Linus Torvalds) From optimus at canit.se Sun Oct 7 06:20:03 2001 From: optimus at canit.se (Iggy Drougge) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:32 2005 Subject: Squealing CRTs In-Reply-To: <3BC02636.6CF1B54C@silke.rt.schwaben.de> Message-ID: <920.680T150T7403887optimus@canit.se> Michael Schneider skrev: >In a way, yes: if you have a switched power supply, it could be (rather >small) >mains transformer that is vibrating at high frequencies. But with an >analog PSU, >it humms at 50-60 Hz, this is not "squealing", no.... It could almost come from an insect,only it is at a higher frequency. >OTOH, flybacks are often sealed in plastic and vibrate **inside** the >sealing. >I never managed to stop a monitor from beeping and squealing (nice word >8-), >except by replacing the flyback transformer or by treating it with a >very small >hammer (really!!), trying to "shake it into shape". Don't do this at >home! A hammer? Perhaps I'll try that today... OTOH, it should still hold a charge today, considering I had it plugged in as late as this Friday. -- En ligne avec Thor 2.6a. Es gibt zweierlei M?dchen: die einen, die Pullover stricken, und die anderen, die sie ausf?llen. --- Daliah Lavi From ms at silke.rt.schwaben.de Sun Oct 7 06:24:01 2001 From: ms at silke.rt.schwaben.de (Michael Schneider) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:32 2005 Subject: Squealing CRTs References: <920.680T150T7403887optimus@canit.se> Message-ID: <3BC03B51.F0BB497F@silke.rt.schwaben.de> Oh my dear, what have i done!!!!! Be careful..... ms Iggy Drougge wrote: > > Michael Schneider skrev: > > >In a way, yes: if you have a switched power supply, it could be (rather > >small) > >mains transformer that is vibrating at high frequencies. But with an > >analog PSU, > >it humms at 50-60 Hz, this is not "squealing", no.... > > It could almost come from an insect,only it is at a higher frequency. > > >OTOH, flybacks are often sealed in plastic and vibrate **inside** the > >sealing. > >I never managed to stop a monitor from beeping and squealing (nice word > >8-), > >except by replacing the flyback transformer or by treating it with a > >very small > >hammer (really!!), trying to "shake it into shape". Don't do this at > >home! > > A hammer? Perhaps I'll try that today... OTOH, it should still hold a charge > today, considering I had it plugged in as late as this Friday. > > -- > En ligne avec Thor 2.6a. > > Es gibt zweierlei M?dchen: die einen, die Pullover stricken, und die anderen, > die sie ausf?llen. > --- Daliah Lavi -- Michael Schneider email (home): ms@silke.rt.schwaben.de Schleestr.8 http://www.vaxcluster.de 72766 Reutlingen Phone: +49 7121 492781 Germany FAX: +49 7121 479331 People disagree with me. I just ignore them. (Linus Torvalds) From avickers at solutionengineers.com Sun Oct 7 06:30:30 2001 From: avickers at solutionengineers.com (Adrian Vickers) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:32 2005 Subject: CBM8032 - wobbly screen (The saga continues) In-Reply-To: <3BC023A5.290B1D2B@silke.rt.schwaben.de> References: <5.1.0.14.0.20010928221144.00aaa2d0@192.168.1.2> <5.1.0.14.0.20011006195634.026c8330@192.168.1.2> <001a01c14ea7$f5be9f20$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> <3BBF8296.2948D7C7@silke.rt.schwaben.de> <004001c14ebd$b8dc10e0$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20011007121042.02435d78@192.168.1.2> At 10:43 07/10/2001, Michael Schneider wrote: >Well, it's not that the transformer HAS to die.... >Adrian should try to listen to the thing: If he clearly hears the >transformer >humming under load, throw it away. No, there is no significant noise from it. There's quite a powerful hum just as it starts up, but that only lasts 1/2 a second or so before it goes as good as silent. >Or: place small magnetic objects very >close >to the transformers core. You need a considerably large magnetic field >on the >surface of the core to influence the electrons in the CRT's beam, which >are, >after all, still a few inches away. So, the "small objects" might >move... OK, I did two tests. Firstly with a telescopic magnet-on-a-stick thing (used for picking up screws & the like from dark corners where they inevitably fall) - the transformer induces a noticable vibration in that. Secondly, I put a small screwdriver bit on top of the transformer. When switching on, it tried to twist around (it actually did twist, but was thwarted by the plastic ridges on the transformer). Conclusion: This transformer IS putting out a very strong magnetic field... >Oh, another idea: Adrian, have you tried to place the transformer on the >table, >outside of the casing? I mean: leave as much as possible of the original >cabling >in place, just put the transformer out of the way? If this helps, you >know >what to do 8-) This is actually something I was thinking about last night. I could easily fabricate a connector in the back of the computer, then move the transformer out into its own box. OK, it wouldn't be "authentic PET" any more, but it would completely cure the wobble. This may end up being the only solution for my 8032-SK, since the transformer is so close to the monitor that there's nowhere to put any shielding. I can't put the transformer outside as it is, since the internal wiring is not long enough. The other possible problem I'll have with shielding is: It's going to be trying to move about in the magnetic field, isn't it? Meaning I'll have to bolt it down pretty firmly to prevent it making too much noise... Another possibility is to build a very simple step-down box (2-1) so I can use the American transformer (which originally came with the machine); I may pursue this option anyway since I now have two US-sourced CBM disk drives, both of which require 115vac. Yet another option - I could try re-orientating the transformer so the magnetic pollution is pointing towards the front & rear of the machine, instead of up & down like it is now. To do that, however, I'll need to fabricate some kind of mounting bracket, and I don't have the material or tools to do that right now. Also, I'm not sure how effective that'll be... -- Cheers, Ade. Be where it's at, B-Racing! http://b-racing.co.uk -------------- next part -------------- --- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.282 / Virus Database: 150 - Release Date: 25/09/2001 From pete at dunnington.u-net.com Sun Oct 7 06:40:28 2001 From: pete at dunnington.u-net.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:32 2005 Subject: ZX Spectrum internals (Was: ZX81 kits) In-Reply-To: "Iggy Drougge" "Re: ZX Spectrum internals (Was: ZX81 kits)" (Oct 7, 2:17) References: <2758.680T2000T1375921optimus@canit.se> Message-ID: <10110071240.ZM6271@mindy.dunnington.u-net.com> On Oct 7, 2:17, Iggy Drougge wrote: > >> >If it's another 40 pin chip, then that's the custom ULA chip that > >> >includes most of the glue logic. > >> > >> Is that like a lot of 74138s or something? > > >It's rather more than that (I assume that's the address decoder part, > >which is in the ULA). It also handles the DRAM timing, most of the video > >display, and so on. > > I thought one of the selling points of the Z80 was its built-in ability to > handle DRAM. But perhaps it's lacking the 6502's ability to easily share > memory with other devices by only doing memory accessing every second or > fourth cycle. The Z80's special ability in handling DRAM is merely the presence of an on-board counter which increments once in every instruction cycle, and which is output onto the address bus once per instruction. This is only part of the requirement, however (see below). The refresh counter means the chip is guaranteed to cycle through the addresses (with no omissions) in a given period. This is exactly what you need for DRAM refresh. Of course, if you have a video circuit accessing the same DRAM, it too will cycle through the address range (or part of it) and achieve the same end, so the Z80 refresh is only a useful bonus if you don't have video accessing your DRAM. Anyway, it's only a 7-bit counter, which is fine for 16Kbit DRAM but not for most 64Kb devices. The downside is that a Z80 uses the clock in a different way from a 6502. A 6502 does some things on one half of the clock cycle (like accessing memory to read instructions or read/write data) and other things (internal operations) on the other half cycle. During the half-cycle when it doesn't need memory access, it releases the bus, leaving it free for use by other devices (eg video). A Z80 uses successive cycles (of a faster clock) instead of alternate half-cycles for different purposes and there is no clock state when it's guaranteed not to be using the bus. However, there is one (whole) clock cycle when it doesn't need the bus, and that's the refresh period; it's just more complicated to decode that than to just use the phase of the clock (high or low) to enable your video access (or whatever). It's also less suitable than the 6502 since Z80 instruction cycles vary in length and therefore the interval between refresh cycles is not constant. The interval between successive half cycles of a 6502 clock is (usually!) constant. I said the refresh was only part of the requirement. That's because DRAM normally splits the address into two parts, row addresses and column addresses, to address a given cell in the memory matrix. Usually these two parts of the address are multiplexed onto the same pins of the IC. Therefore, on the first part of the memory access cycle, you put the row addresses on the pins and signal this to the DRAM with the /RAS (row address select) signal. The IC latches these address bits internally, and after some time period, you turn off /RAS, replace the row address bits with the column address, and apply the /CAS signal. Neither the Z80 nor the 6502 have any special feature to simplify this (unless you count the fact that you have two clock phases per memory address on a Z80). So in a Spectrum, ZX81, etc, the ULA takes care of the address multiplexing and RAS/CAS timing. > But what does glue logic really mean? Just slang for the assorted logic that does address decoding, signal buffering, RAS/CAS generation, etc. In a typical system with, let's say, ROM, RAM, processor, some I/O ports, perhaps a DMA device, each section that connects to the address/data bus (and perhaps the control bus too, if DMA is involved) would have its own set of buffer ICs, each being enabled only when the relevant section is accessing the bus. The glue logic includes all the decoding/multiplexing of the address and control signals. If you think of a system as CPU, RAM, ROM, I/O ports, then the glue logic is all the extra circuitry you need to "glue" them together into a working system. > Couldn't Sinclair have socketed the BASIC? It must have been a lot of work to > piggy-back it onto each imported Spectrum, unless the customers had to do it > by themselves. Sinclair never used sockets if they didn't have to, for reasons of both cost and reliability. If there was a special Sinclair-original ROM for Scandinavian countries, I would have expected that to be factory-fitted instead of the standard ROM. It's possible they retrofitted something like that -- it might be cheaper to piggyback a new ROM instead of removing the old one -- but I would guess that what you have is something done by the original owner, in order to have both systems. Sinclair would be most unlikely to fit something as extravegant as a switch. -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager University of York From foxvideo at wincom.net Sun Oct 7 07:08:49 2001 From: foxvideo at wincom.net (Charles E. Fox) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:32 2005 Subject: CBM8032 - wobbly screen (The saga continues) In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20011007020756.02451778@192.168.1.2> References: <3BBF8296.2948D7C7@silke.rt.schwaben.de> <5.1.0.14.0.20010928221144.00aaa2d0@192.168.1.2> <5.1.0.14.0.20011006195634.026c8330@192.168.1.2> <001a01c14ea7$f5be9f20$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20011007075705.00a6fbf0@mail.wincom.net> At 02:14 AM 07/10/2001 +0100, you wrote: Cheers, Ade. >Be where it's at, B-Racing! >http://b-racing.co.uk > > Just by chance, do you have space to rotate the transformer? Back in 1950, when I was getting into TV repair, Ontario power grid was on 25 Hz! We had people bringing in 60 Hz TV sets from the US and asking us to convert them to operate here. Also 25 Hz transformers were longer, which raised them closer to the crt neck. Solutions included making an external power supply, raising the chassis on stilts and putting the transformer below, or sometimes if we were lucky, we could rotate the transformer about 45 degrees and get away with it. Good luck Charlie Fox Chas E. Fox Video Productions 793 Argyle Rd. Windsor ON N8Y 3J8 foxvideo@wincom.net Check out: Camcorder Kindergarten at http://chasfoxvideo.com From mcguire at neurotica.com Sun Oct 7 09:45:16 2001 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:32 2005 Subject: older SGI and Mac equipment available for free In-Reply-To: Re: older SGI and Mac equipment available for free (Full SCSI) References: <15295.23268.927347.701308@phaduka.neurotica.com> <5.1.0.14.0.20011007003744.009e7080@mailhost.internet1.net> Message-ID: <15296.27260.41558.685835@phaduka.neurotica.com> On October 7, Full SCSI wrote: > Why are you selling the Mog Dave? While I'm quite attached to that truck, I don't drive it nearly enough...and frankly, I could really use the money. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Laurel, MD From awx at btinternet.com Sun Oct 7 11:14:50 2001 From: awx at btinternet.com (Alex White) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:32 2005 Subject: 6502 Source.... In-Reply-To: <15296.27260.41558.685835@phaduka.neurotica.com> Message-ID: Hey all UK people - do you know of a source for 6502s (and related support chips, such as the 6522) within the UK? Thanks for your time Alex --- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.282 / Virus Database: 150 - Release Date: 25/09/2001 From callwright at earthlink.net Sun Oct 7 11:22:01 2001 From: callwright at earthlink.net (EarthLink.Net) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:32 2005 Subject: DEC TK50-GA tape drive/ Windows 9x Message-ID: <001701c14f4c$3578c2e0$b6f3fea9@48666> Hello All, I own a pair of DEC TK50-GA external SCSI tape drives which I'd like to use as storage on my PC (Windows 98). Can anyone tell me: 1. if this is possible 2. if possible, what hardware/software is required 3. source(s) of required hardware/software Kevin Wright Email: callwright@earthlink.net -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20011007/20ec4e88/attachment.html From edick at idcomm.com Sun Oct 7 12:08:11 2001 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:32 2005 Subject: 6502 BASIC or Assembler and Intel 8271/WDC 1770 info req'd References: Message-ID: <001f01c14f52$a4e3f540$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> I was not a RS user at the time and it's quite possible that the rumors I heard regarding the M1 and those about the M3 were geting mixed together. I wasn't even aware that there wasn't a two-sided option on the stock model 3. There were several third-party gimmicks that did a number of things in one wham, though. There was one "fix" for the data separator that also provided a switch in the memory map that enabled one to run CP/M, all the while increasing the CPU speed, and another that incorportated the serial port and a hard disk interface into the main box, albeit with external drives (weren't those the stock thing?) and an external bridge controller to a HDC, apparenlty intended to coreside with the drives. The original pacakging concept for the model 1 was a complete bust, with loose hardware all over the place, and one could see the RS was determined to reign in that problem. Unfortunately, they still liked selling packaging far too much. I had a client here in Denver, part of whose business was selling an alternative OS for the TRS-80, called NewDos-80. It apparently sold quite well. I was unable to convince them, at the time, (1981) to allow me to whip up a memory map switch so the user could select a memory map that would support CP/M. I had already provided them with a PSU design for their after-market disk drive box, and sold them quite a load of transformers (acquired from MITS, when they went under), and it seemed reasonable to me to go after their business in a larger way. Since they, like Radio Shack, were heavily invested in their own OS, they didn't see any benefit in encouraging their customer base to use CP/M. I didn't agree, of course. Dick ----- Original Message ----- From: "Don Maslin" To: Sent: Saturday, October 06, 2001 11:25 PM Subject: Re: 6502 BASIC or Assembler and Intel 8271/WDC 1770 info req'd > > On Sat, 6 Oct 2001, Richard Erlacher wrote: > > > Apparently, though I have no specific knowledge of it, the RS FDC left something > > to be desired, as there were several aftermarket products that plugged in to the > > main board to take its place. Since the stock board used the "official" Western > > Digital circuitry, I can't think of one good reason why they should have had > > trouble with the thing, but if there hadn't been problems, there wouldn't have > > been the third-party market either. > > Probably to provide the DS capability that the factory issue lacked. > > - don > > > The fact that there was a 1773 available for them to use was sufficient > > justifiation for switching circuits, though. The 1793+1691+2143 worked fine, > > but required alignment before it could be shipped, while the all-digital 1773 > > required no alignment procedure, and wouldn't get out of adjustment over time. > > This saved quite a bit of labor. > > > > Dick > > > > > > From: "Tony Duell" > > To: > > Sent: Saturday, October 06, 2001 5:17 PM > > Subject: Re: 6502 BASIC or Assembler and Intel 8271/WDC 1770 info req'd > > > > > > > > The later (gate array) TRS-80 Model 4 systems used a 1773 FDC, which was > > > > > > Interesting. The older model 4s (like mine) have a 1793 -- the floppy > > > controller board is indentical to that in a model 3. I'd assumed they > > > used that board in the gate array versions as well. > > > > > > Maybe they did (in the early gate array machines), and then changed to > > > the 1773 for the last ones. I don't see any reason why that couldn't have > > > been done -- as you said the 1773 and 1793 are pretty much compatible. > > > > > > -tony > > > > > > > > > > > > From cmcmanis at mcmanis.com Sun Oct 7 12:35:23 2001 From: cmcmanis at mcmanis.com (Chuck McManis) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:32 2005 Subject: DEC TK50-GA tape drive/ Windows 9x In-Reply-To: <001701c14f4c$3578c2e0$b6f3fea9@48666> Message-ID: <5.0.0.25.2.20011007103011.01b076a0@209.185.79.193> At 10:22 AM 10/7/01 -0600, you wrote: >I own a pair of DEC TK50-GA external SCSI tape drives which I'd like to >use as storage on my PC (Windows 98). >Can anyone tell me: > 1. if this is possible > 2. if possible, what hardware/software is required > 3. source(s) of required hardware/software >Kevin Wright >Email: callwright@earthlink.net 1) Yes. 2) You need a SCSI-1 controller (like the Adaptec AHA-15xx series). No particular software is needed (The Adaptec EZSCSI software will make it show up as a tape drive to windows backup) 3) Ebay, the local surplus PC shop, ham fests, boot sales, asking around. However, why would you want to do this? The tape is only capable of recording 95MB/taps. It is notoriously prone to "eating" tapes, and the minimum disk size for Win98 is 2GB (which would take about 24 tapes to back up) Now, it occurred to me that you may have thought "ohhh, DLT drive, 10 to 20 GB per tape." and if that was the case I hate to disappoint you. You'd would need to find a TZ89 rather than a TZ85. --Chuck From pete at dunnington.u-net.com Sun Oct 7 12:55:48 2001 From: pete at dunnington.u-net.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:32 2005 Subject: 6502 Source.... In-Reply-To: "Alex White" "6502 Source...." (Oct 7, 17:14) References: Message-ID: <10110071855.ZM6586@mindy.dunnington.u-net.com> On Oct 7, 17:14, Alex White wrote: > Hey all UK people - do you know of a source for 6502s (and related support > chips, such as the 6522) within the UK? Farnell still list the CMD version, G65SC02, catalogue number 562-750, and the Rockwell R65C102, cat.no. 388-488, though the Rockwell parts is listed as "available until stocks are exhausted". They also list several varieties of 6520, 6521, and a 6545 (Rockwell version of 6845 CRT controller), but I know of no suppliers for new 6522s. -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager University of York From edick at idcomm.com Sun Oct 7 13:57:40 2001 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:32 2005 Subject: 6502 Source.... References: <10110071855.ZM6586@mindy.dunnington.u-net.com> Message-ID: <000701c14f61$f0d50980$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> Note that the Rockwell 65C102 is ALMOST like a 65C02, except that it uses an E and Q clock scheme similar to what the 6809 uses. Consequently, it's not a drop-in replacement for a 65C02. Like the Rockwell 65C02, it comes in versions up to E@4 MHz. I've had excellent results with the E@4 MHz parts at harmonics of the baud rates that operate the CPU at close to 5 MHz, e.g. 4.9152 or 5.0688 MHz. Note also, that dirrerent versions of the CMOS parts have different instruction sets, and that those all differ in a number of ways from the old NMOS 6502 instruction set. Dick ----- Original Message ----- From: "Pete Turnbull" To: Sent: Sunday, October 07, 2001 11:55 AM Subject: Re: 6502 Source.... > On Oct 7, 17:14, Alex White wrote: > > Hey all UK people - do you know of a source for 6502s (and related > support > > chips, such as the 6522) within the UK? > > Farnell still list the CMD version, G65SC02, catalogue number 562-750, and > the Rockwell R65C102, cat.no. 388-488, though the Rockwell parts is listed > as "available until stocks are exhausted". They also list several > varieties of 6520, 6521, and a 6545 (Rockwell version of 6845 CRT > controller), but I know of no suppliers for new 6522s. > > > -- > Pete Peter Turnbull > Network Manager > University of York > > From CByrd87043 at aol.com Sun Oct 7 14:15:48 2001 From: CByrd87043 at aol.com (CByrd87043@aol.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:32 2005 Subject: Hard Drives Message-ID: <8c.da2ac03.28f203e4@aol.com> I have a Hard Drive model P1200-2af. I need to know where can I send it to get it fix or replace. It just stop working. From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun Oct 7 13:25:47 2001 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:32 2005 Subject: Squealing CRTs In-Reply-To: <1885.680T1400T1254901optimus@canit.se> from "Iggy Drougge" at Oct 7, 1 02:05:28 am Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1864 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20011007/00f0d8ea/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun Oct 7 13:31:05 2001 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:32 2005 Subject: CBM8032 - wobbly screen (The saga continues) In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20011007020549.0244c940@192.168.1.2> from "Adrian Vickers" at Oct 7, 1 02:07:40 am Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1552 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20011007/24528419/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun Oct 7 13:09:47 2001 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:32 2005 Subject: 6502 BASIC or Assembler and Intel 8271/WDC 1770 info req'd In-Reply-To: <200110070014.f970EML01795@narnia.int.dittman.net> from "Eric Dittman" at Oct 6, 1 07:14:22 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 388 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20011007/990fefb2/attachment.ksh From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Sun Oct 7 15:50:21 2001 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (ajp166) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:33 2005 Subject: Hard Drives Message-ID: <000601c14f71$d447ab50$5df09a8d@ajp166> Beats me what that drive is. This is a group for hardware over 10 years old. If it is that old you likely going to be fixing it yourself. Allison -----Original Message----- From: CByrd87043@aol.com To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org Date: Sunday, October 07, 2001 3:48 PM Subject: Hard Drives >I have a Hard Drive model P1200-2af. I need to know where can I send it to >get it fix or replace. It just stop working. > From cmurillo at emtelsa.multi.net.co Sun Oct 7 15:01:15 2001 From: cmurillo at emtelsa.multi.net.co (Carlos Murillo) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:33 2005 Subject: CBM8032 - wobbly screen (The saga continues) In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20011007021502.02442b88@192.168.1.2> References: <004001c14ebd$b8dc10e0$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> <5.1.0.14.0.20010928221144.00aaa2d0@192.168.1.2> <5.1.0.14.0.20011006195634.026c8330@192.168.1.2> <001a01c14ea7$f5be9f20$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> <3BBF8296.2948D7C7@silke.rt.schwaben.de> Message-ID: <3.0.2.32.20011007160115.017a3644@obregon.multi.net.co> All this talk about magnetically induced wobble makes me remember the time that I lived in a third floor apartment; the 13.2KV distribution lines feeding a nearby refrigerator/stove factory were about 10ft away from my window (and my monitor). I could tell very easily when the porcellanization electric furnace at the factory was turned on or off. I was able to measure fields in excess of 300 milligauss at the window, though they practically dissapeared by the bedroom. Those 13.2KV lines were good earthquake detectors as well. I remember seeing them dancing around before I could feel the actual vibration, which eventually grew into a deadly 7.2 quake that killed a couple hundred in a nearby city. I prefer single-level houses now. -------------------------------------------------------------- Carlos E. Murillo-Sanchez carlos_murillo@nospammers.ieee.org From philip at flatland.com Sun Oct 7 16:18:04 2001 From: philip at flatland.com (Philip Stephens) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:33 2005 Subject: Grappler+ printer interface References: <200110061341.IAA51393@opal.tseinc.com> Message-ID: <000501c14f75$8ddb1e00$0201a8c0@astound.net> I realise this may not be the best forum to ask this question, but the emulator newsgroups seem to be pretty much dead. I'm updating an Apple ][+ emulator that I wrote back in 1994. I would very much like to emulate a printer interface card, such as the Grappler+, but I never owned a printer for the Apple ][+ I still have at home, so I don't have a printer interface card that I can study. So...I was wondering if anyone on this mailing list happens to own an Apple ][ with a printer interface card like the Grappler+, who would be willing to dump the ROM(s) and provide me with details of the I/O locations used. I realise some of you may be against distributing ROM code on the basis of copyright (I personally feel that discontinued products don't deserve copyright protection, though I realise the law says otherwise). If nobody is willing to provide me with ROM code for a printer interface card, I'll settle for a description of the I/O locations and any other information you can give me on the operation of the printer interface card, and I'll write my own "clean room" version of the ROM instead. Regards, Philip From dittman at dittman.net Sun Oct 7 16:21:23 2001 From: dittman at dittman.net (Eric Dittman) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:33 2005 Subject: DEC TK50-GA tape drive/ Windows 9x In-Reply-To: from "Chuck McManis" at Oct 07, 2001 10:35:23 AM Message-ID: <200110072121.f97LLNS13514@narnia.int.dittman.net> > Now, it occurred to me that you may have thought "ohhh, DLT drive, 10 to 20 > GB per tape." and if that was the case I hate to disappoint you. You'd > would need to find a TZ89 rather than a TZ85. The 20GB uncompressed drive is the TZ88/DLT4000. -- Eric Dittman dittman@dittman.net Check out the DEC Enthusiasts Club at http://www.dittman.net/ From dittman at dittman.net Sun Oct 7 16:26:32 2001 From: dittman at dittman.net (Eric Dittman) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:33 2005 Subject: 6502 BASIC or Assembler and Intel 8271/WDC 1770 info req'd In-Reply-To: from "Richard Erlacher" at Oct 07, 2001 11:08:11 AM Message-ID: <200110072126.f97LQWT13537@narnia.int.dittman.net> > I was not a RS user at the time and it's quite possible that the rumors I heard > regarding the M1 and those about the M3 were geting mixed together. I wasn't > even aware that there wasn't a two-sided option on the stock model 3. The third-party controllers were most popular on the Model 1, since the stock FDC was SD. There were a few third-party controllers for the Model III and the early Model 4, but they weren't as popular as the 1793 was more capable. The stock Model 1 FDC also had reliability problems that lead to third-party data separator plug-in circuits. The only Model 1/III/4 that came stock with DS drives was the 4D. Any other DS setup was third-party. The stock III/4 controllers (both the add-on in the III and early 4 and the built-in on the gate-array 4) had no problems with DS drives. -- Eric Dittman dittman@dittman.net Check out the DEC Enthusiasts Club at http://www.dittman.net/ From philpem at bigfoot.com Sun Oct 7 16:36:39 2001 From: philpem at bigfoot.com (Philip Pemberton) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:33 2005 Subject: 6502 BASIC or Assembler and Intel 8271/WDC 1770 info req'd Message-ID: <001e01c14f78$26ae1fe0$8b9a7ad5@phoenix> On 7 Oct 2001 1:36:56 +0100 "Iggy Drougge" said: > Philip Pemberton skrev: > >I've got two Western Design Center W65SC02s (14MHz >6502s! Woohoo!) to play > >with, plus a Synertek SY6502A (the 2MHz one), two W65SC22s (10MHz WDC 6502s) > >and two Synertek 6522s (1MHz). > 14 MHz? You're kidding! That's criminally fast! I kid you not! Go to www.6502.org, grab the datasheet for the W65SC02 and look at page 43. For $4, it's bloody good value. Anyone care to start another bulk-buy? Maybe Mike Nabarezny (sp?), webmaster of 6502.org and the guy who did the original 6502 Bulk Order would care to do another one? > > 2) Has anyone got a schematic for a fairly half-decent 16-colour (or > >better) video card that can be modified to work on a 6502? I've had a look > >at the NASCOM schematics but I've heard Bad Things(tm) about the NASCOM > >video system. Aparrently Gemini and a few others produced colour video cards > >for the NASCOM. Anyone got schematics for these? Graphics would also be nice > >(the NASCOM video system is text only). > Tony mentioned teletext chips a few days ago. Don't know if those perhaps are > only 8-colour, though. Tony? I've got an SAA5050. Anyone know how to use it without the SAA5020 timing generator? I've also got a Microvitec Cub 653 monitor. TTL input, composite sync. How can I get Csync from Vsync and Hsync? > > BTW, I'd like to avoid obsolete components if that's at all possible. > >I've got a Hitachi HD6845 but if the 40-odd page datasheet is anything to go > >by, it's a real dog to use... And it only works in monochrome. I have got a > >MOS Tech 6568(?) VIC-II, the same one used in the UK Commodore 64. The PSU > >for this C64 is fried, took out some of the support components with it. > The VIC is quite well-documented, and it would certainly be interesting to see > it in a non-C64, 14 MHz 6502 system. =) I doubt a VIC will run at 14MHz. Later. -- Phil. philpem@bigfoot.com http://www.philpem.f9.co.uk/ From allain at panix.com Sun Oct 7 16:48:19 2001 From: allain at panix.com (John Allain) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:33 2005 Subject: Hard Drives References: <000601c14f71$d447ab50$5df09a8d@ajp166> Message-ID: <008301c14f79$c7eb2c80$8a0101ac@ibm23xhr06> It would help your case to mention the Manufacturer. How many Mega/Giga Bytes does it contain? Is it SCSI or IDE? John A. -----Original Message----- From: CByrd87043@aol.com To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org Date: Sunday, October 07, 2001 3:48 PM Subject: Hard Drives >I have a Hard Drive model P1200-2af. I need to know where can I > send it toget it fix or replace. It just stop working. From pete at dunnington.u-net.com Sun Oct 7 17:04:33 2001 From: pete at dunnington.u-net.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:33 2005 Subject: Hard Drives In-Reply-To: "ajp166" "Re: Hard Drives" (Oct 7, 16:50) References: <000601c14f71$d447ab50$5df09a8d@ajp166> Message-ID: <10110072304.ZM6712@mindy.dunnington.u-net.com> On Oct 7, 16:50, ajp166 wrote: > Beats me what that drive is. This is a group for hardware over 10 years > old. > If it is that old you likely going to be fixing it yourself. > -----Original Message----- > From: CByrd87043@aol.com > To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org > Date: Sunday, October 07, 2001 3:48 PM > Subject: Hard Drives > > > >I have a Hard Drive model P1200-2af. I need to know where can I send it > to > >get it fix or replace. It just stop working. It's a nothing-special 1.2GB IDE drive with a bad reputation, made by JTS. JTS are no more, so the only likely option is to replace it with a Seagate, WD, or whatever. JTS were famous for, amongst other things, buying part of Atari from the Tramiel family, laying off a lot of staff, and then selling it to Hasbro shortly after being de-listed by the stock exchange and shortly before going bust in 1998. -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager University of York From lemay at cs.umn.edu Sun Oct 7 17:08:11 2001 From: lemay at cs.umn.edu (Lawrence LeMay) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:33 2005 Subject: Grappler+ printer interface In-Reply-To: <000501c14f75$8ddb1e00$0201a8c0@astound.net> Message-ID: <200110072208.RAA03246@caesar.cs.umn.edu> Sounds like a good project. Would you like me to mail you my Grappler + card, its still in the box with the instruction manual (which has the memory address documentation for using the card). It says it has the upgraded 1.1 roms. Send me your US mailing address, and i'll drop it in the mail. Unused, though I did open the package back when I bought it ;) -Lawrence LeMay lemay@cs.umn.edu > I realise this may not be the best forum to ask this question, but the > emulator newsgroups seem to be pretty much dead. > > I'm updating an Apple ][+ emulator that I wrote back in 1994. I would > very much like to emulate a printer interface card, such as the Grappler+, > but I never owned a printer for the Apple ][+ I still have at home, so I > don't have a printer interface card that I can study. > > So...I was wondering if anyone on this mailing list happens to own an > Apple ][ with a printer interface card like the Grappler+, who would be > willing to dump the ROM(s) and provide me with details of the I/O locations > used. > > I realise some of you may be against distributing ROM code on the basis of > copyright (I personally feel that discontinued products don't deserve > copyright protection, though I realise the law says otherwise). If nobody > is willing to provide me with ROM code for a printer interface card, I'll > settle for a description of the I/O locations and any other information you > can give me on the operation of the printer interface card, and I'll write > my own "clean room" version of the ROM instead. > > Regards, > Philip > From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Sun Oct 7 17:54:37 2001 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (ajp166) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:33 2005 Subject: 6502 BASIC or Assembler and Intel 8271/WDC 1770 info req'd Message-ID: <002701c14f84$bbb89c80$5df09a8d@ajp166> From: Eric Dittman >The third-party controllers were most popular on the Model 1, since the stock >FDC was SD. There were a few third-party controllers for the Model III and >the early Model 4, but they weren't as popular as the 1793 was more capable. >The stock Model 1 FDC also had reliability problems that lead to third-party >data separator plug-in circuits. Yep, the M1 data sep was the 1771 internal and that was at best terrible and WD would tell you that. That lead to the Piggyback card to at least add a decent data sep. The 1793 came later but was very desirable as the 35/40track Single sided FD100 or SA400 drives were tiny storage wise. Allison From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Sun Oct 7 17:58:04 2001 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (ajp166) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:33 2005 Subject: Hard Drives Message-ID: <002801c14f84$bc3a76b0$5df09a8d@ajp166> Well sice this is not a PC centric group we may not be the best place for advice. However... JTS was a short lived supplier is low cost IDE drives and were noted for high failure rates though there were the occasional decent one in the pack. They were also very slow compared to the better WD, Seagate, Quantum and Maxtor. Oh, JTS disappeared withing two years after they show up. Allison -----Original Message----- From: Pete Turnbull To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org Date: Sunday, October 07, 2001 6:43 PM Subject: Re: Hard Drives >On Oct 7, 16:50, ajp166 wrote: >> Beats me what that drive is. This is a group for hardware over 10 years >> old. >> If it is that old you likely going to be fixing it yourself. > >> -----Original Message----- >> From: CByrd87043@aol.com >> To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org >> Date: Sunday, October 07, 2001 3:48 PM >> Subject: Hard Drives >> >> >> >I have a Hard Drive model P1200-2af. I need to know where can I send it >> to >> >get it fix or replace. It just stop working. > >It's a nothing-special 1.2GB IDE drive with a bad reputation, made by JTS. > JTS are no more, so the only likely option is to replace it with a >Seagate, WD, or whatever. > >JTS were famous for, amongst other things, buying part of Atari from the >Tramiel family, laying off a lot of staff, and then selling it to Hasbro >shortly after being de-listed by the stock exchange and shortly before >going bust in 1998. > >-- >Pete Peter Turnbull > Network Manager > University of York From lgwalker at mts.net Sun Oct 7 18:21:22 2001 From: lgwalker at mts.net (Lawrence Walker) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:33 2005 Subject: IBM ROM BASIC or lack thereof In-Reply-To: <478.680T1450T745467optimus@canit.se> References: <3BBE024C.11211.41E512F@localhost> Message-ID: <3BC09D22.19723.9B5CBCE@localhost> My apologies. I must stop reading the Amiga newsgroups Lawrence > Lawrence Walker skrev: > > > >>> FLAMEBAIT WARNING<<< >>> FLAMEBAIT WARNING<<< > > [snip] > > Lawrence, WIMP is an acronym for Windows, Icons, Menus and Pointers. It's not an > insult. I think we thus can establish that your attack was totally uncessary. > > (I'm surprised that I didn't flame him. Must be because I've just eaten) > > -- > En ligne avec Thor 2.6a. > > G? med i SUGA, Swedish Usergroup of Amiga! > WWW: http://swedish.usergroup.amiga.tm/ > BBS: 08-6582572, telnet://sua.ath.cx:42512 > > Reply to: lgwalker@mts.net From donm at cts.com Sun Oct 7 19:38:39 2001 From: donm at cts.com (Don Maslin) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:33 2005 Subject: 6502 BASIC or Assembler and Intel 8271/WDC 1770 info req'd In-Reply-To: <200110072126.f97LQWT13537@narnia.int.dittman.net> Message-ID: On Sun, 7 Oct 2001, Eric Dittman wrote: > > I was not a RS user at the time and it's quite possible that the rumors I heard > > regarding the M1 and those about the M3 were geting mixed together. I wasn't > > even aware that there wasn't a two-sided option on the stock model 3. > > The third-party controllers were most popular on the Model 1, since the stock > FDC was SD. There were a few third-party controllers for the Model III and > the early Model 4, but they weren't as popular as the 1793 was more capable. > The stock Model 1 FDC also had reliability problems that lead to third-party > data separator plug-in circuits. > > The only Model 1/III/4 that came stock with DS drives was the 4D. Any other > DS setup was third-party. The stock III/4 controllers (both the add-on in > the III and early 4 and the built-in on the gate-array 4) had no problems > with DS drives. Does that imply that merely substituting DS drives would make a 4 DS capable, or were there some other modifications necessary? - don > -- > Eric Dittman > dittman@dittman.net > Check out the DEC Enthusiasts Club at http://www.dittman.net/ > From pete at dunnington.u-net.com Sun Oct 7 19:47:07 2001 From: pete at dunnington.u-net.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:33 2005 Subject: Hard Drives In-Reply-To: "ajp166" "Re: Hard Drives" (Oct 7, 18:58) References: <002801c14f84$bc3a76b0$5df09a8d@ajp166> Message-ID: <10110080147.ZM6913@mindy.dunnington.u-net.com> On Oct 7, 18:58, ajp166 wrote: > Well sice this is not a PC centric group we may not be the best place > for advice. > > However... JTS was a short lived supplier is low cost IDE drives and > were noted for high failure rates though there were the occasional > decent one in the pack. They were also very slow compared to > the better WD, Seagate, Quantum and Maxtor. They had some problems with master/slave selection as well. They made it to the list of "Worst Models Ever" at www.driveservice.com/bestwrst.htm with "JTS any model". > Oh, JTS disappeared withing two years after they show up. That's a bit of an exaggeration :-) They were around for a while before they did the Atari deal (1996?), making drives from 1994, and went bust in 1998. -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager University of York From donm at cts.com Sun Oct 7 19:45:11 2001 From: donm at cts.com (Don Maslin) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:33 2005 Subject: Hard Drives In-Reply-To: <002801c14f84$bc3a76b0$5df09a8d@ajp166> Message-ID: On Sun, 7 Oct 2001, ajp166 wrote: > Well since this is not a PC centric group we may not be the best place > for advice. > > However... JTS was a short lived supplier is low cost IDE drives and > were noted for high failure rates though there were the occasional > decent one in the pack. They were also very slow compared to > the better WD, Seagate, Quantum and Maxtor. > > Oh, JTS disappeared withing two years after they show up. > > Allison > Do I not remember that JTS was an acronym for "Jugi Tandon ???"? - don > > -----Original Message----- > From: Pete Turnbull > To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org > Date: Sunday, October 07, 2001 6:43 PM > Subject: Re: Hard Drives > > > >On Oct 7, 16:50, ajp166 wrote: > >> Beats me what that drive is. This is a group for hardware over 10 > years > >> old. > >> If it is that old you likely going to be fixing it yourself. > > > >> -----Original Message----- > >> From: CByrd87043@aol.com > >> To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org > >> Date: Sunday, October 07, 2001 3:48 PM > >> Subject: Hard Drives > >> > >> > >> >I have a Hard Drive model P1200-2af. I need to know where can I send > it > >> to > >> >get it fix or replace. It just stop working. > > > >It's a nothing-special 1.2GB IDE drive with a bad reputation, made by > JTS. > > JTS are no more, so the only likely option is to replace it with a > >Seagate, WD, or whatever. > > > >JTS were famous for, amongst other things, buying part of Atari from the > >Tramiel family, laying off a lot of staff, and then selling it to Hasbro > >shortly after being de-listed by the stock exchange and shortly before > >going bust in 1998. > > > >-- > >Pete Peter Turnbull > > Network Manager > > University of York > > From pete at dunnington.u-net.com Sun Oct 7 19:57:01 2001 From: pete at dunnington.u-net.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:33 2005 Subject: 6502 BASIC or Assembler and Intel 8271/WDC 1770 info req'd In-Reply-To: "Philip Pemberton" "Re: 6502 BASIC or Assembler and Intel 8271/WDC 1770 info req'd" (Oct 7, 22:36) References: <001e01c14f78$26ae1fe0$8b9a7ad5@phoenix> Message-ID: <10110080157.ZM6921@mindy.dunnington.u-net.com> On Oct 7, 22:36, Philip Pemberton wrote: > On 7 Oct 2001 1:36:56 +0100 "Iggy Drougge" said: > > Tony mentioned teletext chips a few days ago. Don't know if those perhaps > are > > only 8-colour, though. Tony? The SAA5050 is certainly only 8-colour (plus attributes like flashing) and as far as I know so are later teletext chips. > I've got an SAA5050. Anyone know how to use it without the SAA5020 timing > generator? Take a look at the circuit diagram for a BBC micro; it uses a 6845 for timing and an SAA5050 to generate the teletext screen mode. http://bbc.nvg.org/mirror/www.acorn.com/ftp/documents/circuits/ > I've also got a Microvitec Cub 653 monitor. TTL input, composite sync. How > can I get Csync from Vsync and Hsync? XOR them together; feed the unbuffered TTL outputs to a 74LS86 or similar, and buffer the output with a transistor. -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager University of York From LFessen106 at aol.com Sun Oct 7 19:58:31 2001 From: LFessen106 at aol.com (LFessen106@aol.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:33 2005 Subject: older SGI and Mac equipment available for free Message-ID: In a message dated Sat, 6 Oct 2001 4:56:44 PM Eastern Daylight Time, Dave McGuire writes: > On October 6, LFessen106@aol.com wrote: > > Hey Dave, can you hold onto a Quadra for me? > > Sure, if you can grab it before I move...end of October... > > -Dave Cool! Actually I talked w/ Brian today who said he was coming up there tomorrow probably (definately this week). Anyhow, would you send it along with him? He said he'd bring it back for me earlier than I could get there to get it. BTW, I do plan on coming up to help. Just let me know when. From mikeford at socal.rr.com Sun Oct 7 19:17:27 2001 From: mikeford at socal.rr.com (Mike Ford) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:33 2005 Subject: 6502 Source.... In-Reply-To: References: <15296.27260.41558.685835@phaduka.neurotica.com> Message-ID: >Hey all UK people - do you know of a source for 6502s (and related support >chips, such as the 6522) within the UK? I'm not in the UK, but I have started pulling those chips when I see them on scrap motherboards. From avickers at solutionengineers.com Sun Oct 7 20:19:22 2001 From: avickers at solutionengineers.com (Adrian Vickers) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:33 2005 Subject: CBM8032 - wobbly screen (The saga continues) In-Reply-To: References: <5.1.0.14.0.20011007020549.0244c940@192.168.1.2> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20011008015737.02468210@192.168.1.2> At 19:31 07/10/2001, you wrote: > > >Aluminium won't do a darn thing about 50Hz magnetic fields. You want > > >something like mild steel, or better still mu-metal (if you can get it at > > >a sensible price, or indeed, at all). > > > > Okay, that makes sense. I *should* be able to get hold of some of this > > "mu-metal" stuff - I know people at an electicity/electronics R&D > lab.... :) > >It's worth asking. Really you need to anneal it after bending it to >shape (bending it will affect the magnetic properties and will make it >less good as a sheild). But in practice if you don't bend it except at >the corners where you have to, it will be a lot better than nothing. Anneal - is that where you heat it up & hit it with a hammer? Or do you just heat it up and let it cool again? I forget now... It's been a long long time since I had any metalwork lessons. > > > > I will have a poke around with my multimeter tomorrow... > >In another post you mentioned you could easily detect the stray field >with a screwdriver (ouch!). Well, a screwdriver bit. It's one of those 1.5in long bits which go into a handle, or drill. >OK, take the loads off the transformer. Pull the power connector off the >mainboard, and unplug the cable to the monitor. Is there still the same >stray field (if so, suspect shorted turns or similar in the transformer). Yes, it's still there, albeit not quite so strongly. Still enough to induce a noticable vibration in my magnet-on-a-stick. >If not, then reconnect one of the loads (say the mainboard) and see what >the field is like now. Then try connecting the other load (monitor) on >its own and see what the field is like. > >If one of the loads causes a rediculous increase in the field, then check >the rectifiers and smoothing capacitors in that section... No, not ridiculous (at least, I don't think so), but there is a noticable increase when the monitor load is added. From this, can I deduce that: a) The transformer is kaput (or, at least, on its way out) b) There may be a borderline problem inside the monitor cabinet. I've not got around to the multimeter test yet - I need to take the mainboard out to access the underside, and that's not a task to be doing at 2:20am.... -- Cheers, Ade. Be where it's at, B-Racing! http://b-racing.co.uk -------------- next part -------------- --- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.282 / Virus Database: 150 - Release Date: 25/09/2001 From dittman at dittman.net Sun Oct 7 20:32:09 2001 From: dittman at dittman.net (Eric Dittman) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:33 2005 Subject: 6502 BASIC or Assembler and Intel 8271/WDC 1770 info req'd In-Reply-To: from "Don Maslin" at Oct 07, 2001 05:38:39 PM Message-ID: <200110080132.f981W9713966@narnia.int.dittman.net> > > The only Model 1/III/4 that came stock with DS drives was the 4D. Any other > > DS setup was third-party. The stock III/4 controllers (both the add-on in > > the III and early 4 and the built-in on the gate-array 4) had no problems > > with DS drives. > > Does that imply that merely substituting DS drives would make a 4 DS > capable, or were there some other modifications necessary? I had a gate-array Model 4 that I installed two DSQD drives in without any other modification (other than replacing the floppy cable that used missing connectors for drive select). -- Eric Dittman dittman@dittman.net Check out the DEC Enthusiasts Club at http://www.dittman.net/ From cisin at xenosoft.com Sun Oct 7 21:08:14 2001 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin (XenoSoft)) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:33 2005 Subject: 6502 BASIC or Assembler and Intel 8271/WDC 1770 info req'd In-Reply-To: <200110080132.f981W9713966@narnia.int.dittman.net> Message-ID: > > > The only Model 1/III/4 that came stock with DS drives was the 4D. Any other > > > DS setup was third-party. The stock III/4 controllers (both the add-on in > > > the III and early 4 and the built-in on the gate-array 4) had no problems > > > with DS drives. IIRC, RS used pin 32 as drive select 3 (the fourth drive), although most everyone else used it as side select for double sided drives. Since RS used "missing pins in the cable" for drive select, and shorted pins 10,12,14, and 32 together on each drive, ... If you used aftermarket stuff, it was no big deal. But if you used almost all RS stuff, then it would require a jumper wire on the controller to connect side select instead of DS3 to pin 32, a non RS cable, NOT using 4 drives on the cable, and cutting traces on all RS drives on that cable to do drive select at the drive instead of in the cable (at least for DS3) -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin@xenosoft.com From fmc at reanimators.org Sun Oct 7 21:01:05 2001 From: fmc at reanimators.org (Frank McConnell) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:33 2005 Subject: Hard Drives In-Reply-To: "ajp166"'s message of "Sun, 7 Oct 2001 18:58:04 -0400" References: <002801c14f84$bc3a76b0$5df09a8d@ajp166> Message-ID: <200110080201.f9821Xo05909@daemonweed.reanimators.org> "ajp166" wrote: > However... JTS was a short lived supplier is low cost IDE drives and > were noted for high failure rates though there were the occasional > decent one in the pack. They were also very slow compared to > the better WD, Seagate, Quantum and Maxtor. Don't I also remember that JTS was flogging the notion (later used by Quantum "Bigfoot" drives) of building 5.25" hard drives well after everyone else was making 3.5" units? The idea(s) being that all those PC cases were being made with 5.25" drive bays that were going unused; and 5.25" platters could have more surface area than 3.5" ones, so you could get the same capacity with fewer heads and hence lower cost (and almost certainly lower performance, but who pays attention to disk drive performance at the low end?). -Frank McConnell From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun Oct 7 14:55:00 2001 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:33 2005 Subject: 6502 BASIC or Assembler and Intel 8271/WDC 1770 info req'd In-Reply-To: <000b01c14ee4$b4e374c0$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> from "Richard Erlacher" at Oct 6, 1 10:01:13 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 3565 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20011007/3a0b743e/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun Oct 7 13:17:57 2001 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:33 2005 Subject: IBM ROM BASIC or lack thereof In-Reply-To: <2227.680T2850T1066695optimus@canit.se> from "Iggy Drougge" at Oct 7, 1 01:46:57 am Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 3037 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20011007/e4a31bb4/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun Oct 7 14:31:38 2001 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:33 2005 Subject: ZX Spectrum internals (Was: ZX81 kits) In-Reply-To: <2758.680T2000T1375921optimus@canit.se> from "Iggy Drougge" at Oct 7, 1 02:17:40 am Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 5325 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20011007/e3863e55/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun Oct 7 13:11:03 2001 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:33 2005 Subject: 6502 BASIC or Assembler and Intel 8271/WDC 1770 info req'd In-Reply-To: <1391.680T2800T966373optimus@canit.se> from "Iggy Drougge" at Oct 7, 1 01:36:56 am Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 200 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20011007/685094b0/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun Oct 7 15:08:15 2001 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:33 2005 Subject: 6502 BASIC or Assembler and Intel 8271/WDC 1770 info req'd In-Reply-To: from "Don Maslin" at Oct 6, 1 10:25:06 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1205 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20011007/ba9f183f/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun Oct 7 14:34:59 2001 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:33 2005 Subject: 6502 BASIC or Assembler and Intel 8271/WDC 1770 info req'd In-Reply-To: <200110070125.f971PvR01989@narnia.int.dittman.net> from "Eric Dittman" at Oct 6, 1 08:25:57 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1004 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20011007/375d6136/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun Oct 7 13:20:52 2001 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:33 2005 Subject: Is there a source for veroboard in the U.S.? In-Reply-To: <2153.680T2200T1115749optimus@canit.se> from "Iggy Drougge" at Oct 7, 1 01:51:44 am Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 752 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20011007/e11ac187/attachment.ksh From dittman at dittman.net Sun Oct 7 22:21:04 2001 From: dittman at dittman.net (Eric Dittman) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:33 2005 Subject: 6502 BASIC or Assembler and Intel 8271/WDC 1770 info req'd In-Reply-To: from "Fred Cisin (XenoSoft)" at Oct 07, 2001 07:08:14 PM Message-ID: <200110080321.f983L4G14190@narnia.int.dittman.net> > > > > The only Model 1/III/4 that came stock with DS drives was the 4D. Any other > > > > DS setup was third-party. The stock III/4 controllers (both the add-on in > > > > the III and early 4 and the built-in on the gate-array 4) had no problems > > > > with DS drives. > > IIRC, RS used pin 32 as drive select 3 (the fourth drive), although most > everyone else used it as side select for double sided drives. Since RS > used "missing pins in the cable" for drive select, and shorted pins > 10,12,14, and 32 together on each drive, ... > > If you used aftermarket stuff, it was no big deal. But if you used almost > all RS stuff, then it would require a jumper wire on the controller to > connect side select instead of DS3 to pin 32, a non RS cable, NOT using 4 > drives on the cable, and cutting traces on all RS drives on that cable to > do drive select at the drive instead of in the cable (at least for DS3) This was only on the Model I. The Model III and 4 didn't have this problem. -- Eric Dittman dittman@dittman.net Check out the DEC Enthusiasts Club at http://www.dittman.net/ From donm at cts.com Sun Oct 7 23:48:29 2001 From: donm at cts.com (Don Maslin) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:33 2005 Subject: 6502 BASIC or Assembler and Intel 8271/WDC 1770 info req'd In-Reply-To: <200110080132.f981W9713966@narnia.int.dittman.net> Message-ID: On Sun, 7 Oct 2001, Eric Dittman wrote: > > > The only Model 1/III/4 that came stock with DS drives was the 4D. Any other > > > DS setup was third-party. The stock III/4 controllers (both the add-on in > > > the III and early 4 and the built-in on the gate-array 4) had no problems > > > with DS drives. > > > > Does that imply that merely substituting DS drives would make a 4 DS > > capable, or were there some other modifications necessary? > > I had a gate-array Model 4 that I installed two DSQD drives in without > any other modification (other than replacing the floppy cable that used > missing connectors for drive select). Interesting! I was not aware of that. Rather like the Kaypro 2/84, though you needed the DS specific utilities. Was this same upgrade available for the non-gate-array machine? - don > -- > Eric Dittman > dittman@dittman.net > Check out the DEC Enthusiasts Club at http://www.dittman.net/ > From dan at ekoan.com Mon Oct 8 00:28:41 2001 From: dan at ekoan.com (Dan Veeneman) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:33 2005 Subject: Docs and software wanted for OPUS 300PM Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20011008012554.02ca4080@enigma> This weekend I picked up an OPUS 300PM, which from what I can gather is a Fairchild Clipper computer on an ISA card. All I have is the card -- no manuals, documentation or software, so any pointers to further information on this card would be most welcome. The card is silkscreened with a date of 1987, so it is on-topic. Cheers, Dan From wilby98 at yahoo.com Mon Oct 8 02:56:15 2001 From: wilby98 at yahoo.com (William S.) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:33 2005 Subject: In Search of RS/6000 POWERserver 930 Message-ID: <20011008075615.87256.qmail@web13303.mail.yahoo.com> I am looking for a RS/6000 POWERserver 930 or equivalent. So if there is anyone here in the Netherlands or a nearby country who is looking to give one away, please contact me at my email address. This would just be a hobby machine to add to my small collection of "old stuff" and learn a bit on the way. Bill S. Amsterdam, NL __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? NEW from Yahoo! GeoCities - quick and easy web site hosting, just $8.95/month. http://geocities.yahoo.com/ps/info1 From Antonio.Carlini at riverstonenet.com Mon Oct 8 04:57:29 2001 From: Antonio.Carlini at riverstonenet.com (Carlini, Antonio) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:33 2005 Subject: IBM ROM BASIC or lack thereof Message-ID: <3820E2042B6ED5118DC200D0B78EDC4706617B@exc-reo1> ard@p850ug1.demon.co.uk wrote: > If I was being totally honest, I would probably admit that there are > times where board-swapping makes sense. Not _all the time_, though... > There are certainly times when component level repair make financial > sense (even when you consider the time taken to replace the > component), > and is also the fastest way to get the machine working again. I cannot think of too many cases (at least in our current machine room - or indeed anywhere else I have been) where a repair is better for either the customer or the repairer. If I look at the routers and switches in our racks, the PSUs swap out, the fan tray swaps out and all of the cards swap out. The backplane and switching fabrics are a little harder - but not much. Replacing a card is the work of moments and will be much cheaper for the customer (in terms of down time) and the supplier (in terms of the amount of training needed by the FE). Even five to ten years ago (the times of the VAX 4000 and VAX 6000) I expect that the same economics would have applied. In fact, I believe that the machines were designed to keep MTTR low (and MTBF high !). You would have to go back to the early eighties, the days of the VAX-11/7xx and the VAX 86xx, to find FEs fixing components on site. In those days machines cost a great deal more and people (even highly trained people) cost a great deal less. Now once the card has been pulled and returned to base, then it is probably worthwhile having a repair line where someone with the appropriate skills can find the fault and fix it. Obviously if it costs more to do this than it does to simply use brand new boards as swap-ins, then even this repair won't be done. This is not to say that I won't fix the washing machine or the TV myself once they go out of waranty (but even there it was cheaper to get a new drain pump than try to repair the broken one!) > No, what worries me is that people are not being taught about > component-level design and repair any more (design and repair > are not the same thing, of course). I too am concerned about that sort of dumbing down. At least in those courses where it is appropriate. OTOH it seems perfectly reasonable to me that *most* people could care less about how their computer works - after all most people seem to be that way about their TV, car, DVD etc. I, for one, do not particularly enjoy plumbing, for example. > > replacement modules. People like Tony are few and far between. > > Probably because very few employers want people like me.... Economics again. Employers only need one of you for every N field service engineers. Your kind of skills cost money ... and if they don't you aren't doing the rest of us any favours - stop it :-) Antonio From Antonio.Carlini at riverstonenet.com Mon Oct 8 05:09:46 2001 From: Antonio.Carlini at riverstonenet.com (Carlini, Antonio) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:33 2005 Subject: IBM ROM BASIC or lack thereof Message-ID: <3820E2042B6ED5118DC200D0B78EDC4706617C@exc-reo1> ard@p850ug1.demon.co.uk wrote: > Yes, stupid isn't it. I've some across programs where the > help files for > installation are compressed on the CD-ROM, and thus can only be read > after installation. I wonder which genius came up with that idea. This is not terribly clever :-) > Ditto for putting hardware docs in machine-readable form > only. The time you _need_ those documents (as opposed > to just wanting a bit of light > reading) is when the machine won't boot.... Apart from the word "only" above, I humbly disagree. I have less than perhaps 300 paper manuals and printsets in all (and a fair proportion of those are non-technical Owner's Manuals and the like). Electronic manuals are a godsend for those of us who are severely restricted space-wise. Add to that all the scans of manuals and printsets that I can now find on the net, and I think that electronic manuals are terrific. I don't expect to read my manual on the Rainbow that I am repairing ... that's what the PC or laptop is for! > And a lot of modern manuals, even when you've figured out how to read > them do not contain the information that I would need. Not > even what I > would consider to be 'basic' information, like pinouts and > data formats. True but probably understandable these days. Things change so rapidly that there is no time to generate the manual. The schematics will exist somewhere (although getting hold of them will be difficult for an outsider for the usual reasons of commercial sensitivity) but documentation is usually sketchy at best. Things may be a little different in the consumer arena, but the most I've been able to find have been the TV manuals in the RTSG (or whatever it's called ... my current TV came with a five year guarantee and the previous one was a Decca series 80 chassis that was already old when I got it ... must be 10 years since I've needed to pop into a library to consult that book!). Antonio From dittman at dittman.net Mon Oct 8 06:36:32 2001 From: dittman at dittman.net (Eric Dittman) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:33 2005 Subject: 6502 BASIC or Assembler and Intel 8271/WDC 1770 info req'd In-Reply-To: from "Don Maslin" at Oct 07, 2001 09:48:29 PM Message-ID: <200110081136.f98BaW014931@narnia.int.dittman.net> > > > > The only Model 1/III/4 that came stock with DS drives was the 4D. Any other > > > > DS setup was third-party. The stock III/4 controllers (both the add-on in > > > > the III and early 4 and the built-in on the gate-array 4) had no problems > > > > with DS drives. > > > > > > Does that imply that merely substituting DS drives would make a 4 DS > > > capable, or were there some other modifications necessary? > > > > I had a gate-array Model 4 that I installed two DSQD drives in without > > any other modification (other than replacing the floppy cable that used > > missing connectors for drive select). > > Interesting! I was not aware of that. Rather like the Kaypro 2/84, > though you needed the DS specific utilities. Was this same upgrade > available for the non-gate-array machine? Yes. The Model III and 4 all had the capability to easily add DS drives. -- Eric Dittman dittman@dittman.net Check out the DEC Enthusiasts Club at http://www.dittman.net/ From jhfine at idirect.com Mon Oct 8 08:31:03 2001 From: jhfine at idirect.com (Jerome Fine) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:33 2005 Subject: DEC TK50-GA tape drive/ Windows 9x References: <5.0.0.25.2.20011007103011.01b076a0@209.185.79.193> Message-ID: <3BC1AA96.DBB1C874@idirect.com> >Chuck McManis wrote: > At 10:22 AM 10/7/01 -0600, you wrote: > >I own a pair of DEC TK50-GA external SCSI tape drives which I'd like to > >use as storage on my PC (Windows 98). > >Can anyone tell me: > > 1. if this is possible > > 2. if possible, what hardware/software is required > > 3. source(s) of required hardware/software > >Kevin Wright > >Email: callwright@earthlink.net > 1) Yes. > 2) You need a SCSI-1 controller (like the Adaptec AHA-15xx series). No > particular software is needed (The Adaptec EZSCSI software will make it > show up as a tape drive to windows backup) > 3) Ebay, the local surplus PC shop, ham fests, boot sales, asking around. > However, why would you want to do this? The tape is only capable of > recording 95MB/taps. It is notoriously prone to "eating" tapes, and the > minimum disk size for Win98 is 2GB (which would take about 24 tapes to back > up) > Now, it occurred to me that you may have thought "ohhh, DLT drive, 10 to 20 > GB per tape." and if that was the case I hate to disappoint you. You'd > would need to find a TZ89 rather than a TZ85. Jerome Fine replies: Of course, IF you want to use the TK50-GA as a backup/exchange device for use with a PDP-11 emulator on the PC system, that is another matter. However, I suggest that you consider reason: 4) The TK50 drive (used in both a TK50-GA and it is the TK50-AA) is probably the slowest tape drive around (unless you include the TU-58). As an exchange media for off-site use less than a few times a year and for very small volumes of data (less than 100 MBytes - even a single Zip cartridge can hold 100 MBytes and is MUCH faster) AND for older software systems like the PDP-11 and even a uVAX II, the TK50-GA might be considered reasonable. However, when used for backup purposes more than a few times a year, I doubt that many people would consider it a reasonable solution. While the tape WRITE speed might be just barely sufficient if the software can keep the drive streaming, if you ever attempt to do a VERIFY (generally useful to be sure that the tape can be read back - otherwise, depending on a backup is questionable), you may find that is takes too long. I did just once and quit before it was even half finished. I also gave up on using the TK50 as a backup drive even with a PDP-11 under RT-11. Sincerely yours, Jerome Fine From pechter at bg-tc-ppp1532.monmouth.com Mon Oct 8 09:35:10 2001 From: pechter at bg-tc-ppp1532.monmouth.com (Bill Pechter) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:33 2005 Subject: repair on site In-Reply-To: <3820E2042B6ED5118DC200D0B78EDC4706617B@exc-reo1> from "Carlini, Antonio" at "Oct 8, 2001 02:57:29 am" Message-ID: <200110081435.f98EZA904508@bg-tc-ppp1532.monmouth.com> > You would have to go back to the early eighties, > the days of the VAX-11/7xx and the VAX 86xx, to > find FEs fixing components on site. In those days > machines cost a great deal more and people (even > highly trained people) cost a great deal less. > > Antonio Actually, the last time I know of any DEC guy doing on site chip or compnent level repairs was the early 80's when my branch support guy went down to Mexico City around '84 after a major earthquake to chip level repair 11/70's. Most DEC US chip swapping was over by '82 when I hired on. In the states you really needed a reason to do mote than board level swap. One case I know of is where a specific Unibus board was fried taking out an address or data line on the entire Unibus. Replacing and desoldering transceiver chips became necessary when there were more burned boards than stock in house in the local office. I once told an engineer who called me up and demanded I replace a certain chip on the TE16 at Naval Air Propulsion at Trenton, NJ. The problem was that the drive wouldn't go on-line although the on-line led lit. I told them that I would be there in about three weeks, since the chip was a special order item from logistics. After the "Uh..." pause I told them I could be there in 15 minutes with the TE16 Logic and Write (LAW) board if they wouldn't bust my chops. They had full coverage on service contract and the board swap cost them nothing. What you had here is a case of an engineer-customer showing how good he could troubleshoot and trying to make the Field Service guy feel inadequate. Nice try. Sometimes board swapping is actually faster than chip replacement. Bill -- d|i|g|i|t|a|l had it THEN. Don't you wish you could still buy it now! bpechter@shell.monmouth.com|pechter@pechter.dyndns.org From jrasite at eoni.com Mon Oct 8 11:03:55 2001 From: jrasite at eoni.com (Jim Arnott) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:33 2005 Subject: [Fwd: [swap] CPM Books] Message-ID: <3BC1CE5A.6B8A30E4@eoni.com> >From the LEM Swap list... Jim -------------- next part -------------- An embedded message was scrubbed... From: Robert Poland Subject: [swap] CPM Books Date: Mon, 8 Oct 2001 07:29:59 -0400 Size: 2339 Url: http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20011008/a1f42ffd/attachment.mht From cisin at xenosoft.com Mon Oct 8 11:27:37 2001 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin (XenoSoft)) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:33 2005 Subject: 6502 BASIC or Assembler and Intel 8271/WDC 1770 info req'd In-Reply-To: <200110080321.f983L4G14190@narnia.int.dittman.net> Message-ID: > > IIRC, RS used pin 32 as drive select 3 (the fourth drive), although most > > everyone else used it as side select for double sided drives. Since RS > > used "missing pins in the cable" for drive select, and shorted pins > > 10,12,14, and 32 together on each drive, ... > > If you used aftermarket stuff, it was no big deal. But if you used almost > > all RS stuff, then it would require a jumper wire on the controller to > > connect side select instead of DS3 to pin 32, a non RS cable, NOT using 4 > > drives on the cable, and cutting traces on all RS drives on that cable to > > do drive select at the drive instead of in the cable (at least for DS3) On Sun, 7 Oct 2001, Eric Dittman wrote: > This was only on the Model I. The Model III and 4 didn't have this problem. Not for INTERNAL drives. But the drives sold by RS for EXTERNAL use for model 3, etc. were the same drives, with the same perverted jumpers. If you were to use RS cable, and/or include a RS drive along with a DS one on an external cable, then you DID have to deal with them shorting side select to DS in the RS drives. 'Course, if you stuck with aftermarket drives, and used NORMAL drive select, didn't put 4 drives external, and avoided RS's demented cables, then it wasn't a problem. -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin@xenosoft.com From sipke at wxs.nl Mon Oct 8 11:16:08 2001 From: sipke at wxs.nl (Sipke de Wal) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:33 2005 Subject: Docs and software wanted for OPUS 300PM References: <5.1.0.14.0.20011008012554.02ca4080@enigma> Message-ID: <008901c15014$8a260500$030101ac@boll.casema.net> Maybe you can get more help with this question on the [ingr-clippers] mailgroup....... There some renewed vigor on this group lately! Subscription info below............ Sipke de Wal ------------------------------------------- private website: http://xgistor.ath.cx ------------------------------------------- ingr-clippers@yahoogroups.com. There's also an archive. @Yahoo Additionally.......................... Today I've put up a website dedicated to Intergraph-Clipper systems http://xgistor.ath.cx:8600 It is still under construction but if the things on the mailgroup are anything to go by, a GNU C for CLIX may be a reality soon! And who knows some BSD-port in the future ----- Original Message ----- From: Dan Veeneman To: Sent: Monday, October 08, 2001 7:28 AM Subject: Docs and software wanted for OPUS 300PM > This weekend I picked up an OPUS 300PM, which from what I > can gather is a Fairchild Clipper computer on an ISA card. > > All I have is the card -- no manuals, documentation or software, > so any pointers to further information on this card would be most > welcome. > > The card is silkscreened with a date of 1987, so it is on-topic. > > > Cheers, > > Dan > From dittman at dittman.net Mon Oct 8 11:59:55 2001 From: dittman at dittman.net (Eric Dittman) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:33 2005 Subject: Pro350 Available. Message-ID: <200110081659.f98Gxtv15634@narnia.int.dittman.net> I know of someone that has a Pro350 available. If anyone is interested, please let me know and I'll forward you their email address. -- Eric Dittman dittman@dittman.net Check out the DEC Enthusiasts Club at http://www.dittman.net/ From workstations at poczta.onet.pl Mon Oct 8 12:06:47 2001 From: workstations at poczta.onet.pl (Jacek Artymiak) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:33 2005 Subject: Still looking References: <200110010944.LAA27895@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> Message-ID: <002601c1501b$9d4e0680$05ffa8c0@hx.com> Jochen, > On 1 Oct, Jacek Artymiak wrote: > > > I did look for m/b for these, but they seem to be used only in > > AlphaStations/Server. If you know of an OEM board that takes them I'd be > > very interested to learn its part number/model name. > Why do you restrict your search to OEM boards? > > If you really don't know what to do with your 233 MHz 21064BB CPU, give > it to me. My AlphaStation 200 4/166 will be pleased to be upgraded to a > 4/233. ;-) > > BTW: > http://cgi.ebay.de/aw-cgi/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=1279989844 > http://cgi.ebay.de/aw-cgi/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=1277302511 Thanks, but will they run with my 266 Alpha chip? I found some docs but they don't mention that 266 Alphas will work with these boards. Or am I looking on the wrong places? Jacek Artymiak -- Tego nie znajdziesz w zadnym sklepie! [ http://oferty.onet.pl ] From workstations at poczta.onet.pl Mon Oct 8 12:09:36 2001 From: workstations at poczta.onet.pl (Jacek Artymiak) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:33 2005 Subject: Still looking References: <200110011121.f91BLv616076@narnia.int.dittman.net> Message-ID: <002b01c1501c$023dde80$05ffa8c0@hx.com> Eric, > The 21064 should work in a PC64 and the 21164 should work in either an > EB164 or PC164. I've got extra PC64, EB164, and PC164 motherboards but > you're overseas so finding one nearer to you would probably be cheaper. Do you know where I could find some docs that I could check to see if my Alpha chips will work with these boards? I downloaded Digital/Compaq docs, but can't find any informoation that confirms that these chips will work with the boards you mention. Thanks, Jacek Artymiak -- Tego nie znajdziesz w zadnym sklepie! [ http://oferty.onet.pl ] From dittman at dittman.net Mon Oct 8 12:21:01 2001 From: dittman at dittman.net (Eric Dittman) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:34 2005 Subject: 6502 BASIC or Assembler and Intel 8271/WDC 1770 info req'd In-Reply-To: from "Fred Cisin (XenoSoft)" at Oct 08, 2001 09:27:37 AM Message-ID: <200110081721.f98HL1115687@narnia.int.dittman.net> > > > IIRC, RS used pin 32 as drive select 3 (the fourth drive), although most > > > everyone else used it as side select for double sided drives. Since RS > > > used "missing pins in the cable" for drive select, and shorted pins > > > 10,12,14, and 32 together on each drive, ... > > > If you used aftermarket stuff, it was no big deal. But if you used almost > > > all RS stuff, then it would require a jumper wire on the controller to > > > connect side select instead of DS3 to pin 32, a non RS cable, NOT using 4 > > > drives on the cable, and cutting traces on all RS drives on that cable to > > > do drive select at the drive instead of in the cable (at least for DS3) > > On Sun, 7 Oct 2001, Eric Dittman wrote: > > This was only on the Model I. The Model III and 4 didn't have this problem. > > Not for INTERNAL drives. But the drives sold by RS for EXTERNAL use for > model 3, etc. were the same drives, with the same perverted jumpers. If > you were to use RS cable, and/or include a RS drive along with a DS one on > an external cable, then you DID have to deal with them shorting side > select to DS in the RS drives. The external RS cable I had just had missing connectors for the drive select positions and the drives were jumpered for all the drive select lines. I used a normal external floppy cable along with a DSDD drive and a SSDD RS drive without any problems on my Model 4. All I had to do was open the jumpers for the wrong drive position. The RS external drives I had didn't have the side select shorted to drive select in my RS drive. There were a couple of revisions of the RS external drives. Maybe the ones you had were the original drives that were sold for the Model I? -- Eric Dittman dittman@dittman.net Check out the DEC Enthusiasts Club at http://www.dittman.net/ From vze2mnvr at verizon.net Mon Oct 8 12:36:18 2001 From: vze2mnvr at verizon.net (Jan Koller) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:34 2005 Subject: CBM8032 - wobbly screen (The saga continues) References: <5.1.0.14.0.20011007020549.0244c940@192.168.1.2> <5.1.0.14.0.20011008015737.02468210@192.168.1.2> Message-ID: <3BC1E412.EA79691C@verizon.net> > Anneal - is that where you heat it up & hit it with a hammer? Or do you > just heat it up and let it cool again? I forget now... It's been a long > long time since I had any metalwork lessons. Heat to cherry red, then cool very slowly, often covered in lime, IIRC, to hold the heat in. The very slow cooling keeps the metal soft, vs cooling quickly ( quenching ) to harden. Adrian Vickers wrote: > At 19:31 07/10/2001, you wrote: > > > > >Aluminium won't do a darn thing about 50Hz magnetic fields. You want > > > >something like mild steel, or better still mu-metal (if you can get it at > > > >a sensible price, or indeed, at all). > > > > > > Okay, that makes sense. I *should* be able to get hold of some of this > > > "mu-metal" stuff - I know people at an electicity/electronics R&D > > lab.... :) > > > >It's worth asking. Really you need to anneal it after bending it to > >shape (bending it will affect the magnetic properties and will make it > >less good as a sheild). But in practice if you don't bend it except at > >the corners where you have to, it will be a lot better than nothing. > > Anneal - is that where you heat it up & hit it with a hammer? Or do you > just heat it up and let it cool again? I forget now... It's been a long > long time since I had any metalwork lessons. > > > > > > > I will have a poke around with my multimeter tomorrow... > > > >In another post you mentioned you could easily detect the stray field > >with a screwdriver (ouch!). > > Well, a screwdriver bit. It's one of those 1.5in long bits which go into a > handle, or drill. > > >OK, take the loads off the transformer. Pull the power connector off the > >mainboard, and unplug the cable to the monitor. Is there still the same > >stray field (if so, suspect shorted turns or similar in the transformer). > > Yes, it's still there, albeit not quite so strongly. Still enough to induce > a noticable vibration in my magnet-on-a-stick. > > >If not, then reconnect one of the loads (say the mainboard) and see what > >the field is like now. Then try connecting the other load (monitor) on > >its own and see what the field is like. > > > >If one of the loads causes a rediculous increase in the field, then check > >the rectifiers and smoothing capacitors in that section... > > No, not ridiculous (at least, I don't think so), but there is a noticable > increase when the monitor load is added. > > From this, can I deduce that: > > a) The transformer is kaput (or, at least, on its way out) > b) There may be a borderline problem inside the monitor cabinet. > > I've not got around to the multimeter test yet - I need to take the > mainboard out to access the underside, and that's not a task to be doing at > 2:20am.... > > -- > Cheers, Ade. > Be where it's at, B-Racing! > http://b-racing.co.uk > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > --- > Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. > Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). > Version: 6.0.282 / Virus Database: 150 - Release Date: 25/09/2001 From dittman at dittman.net Mon Oct 8 13:01:20 2001 From: dittman at dittman.net (Eric Dittman) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:34 2005 Subject: Still looking In-Reply-To: from "Jacek Artymiak" at Oct 08, 2001 07:09:36 PM Message-ID: <200110081801.f98I1K015842@narnia.int.dittman.net> > > The 21064 should work in a PC64 and the 21164 should work in either an > > EB164 or PC164. I've got extra PC64, EB164, and PC164 motherboards but > > you're overseas so finding one nearer to you would probably be cheaper. > > Do you know where I could find some docs that I could check to see if my > Alpha chips will work with these boards? I downloaded Digital/Compaq docs, > but can't find any informoation that confirms that these chips will work > with the boards you mention. The motherboard manuals were on the Digital website. They have probably moved around since I looked at them last. I'll see if I have the PDF files stuck somewhere. -- Eric Dittman dittman@dittman.net Check out the DEC Enthusiasts Club at http://www.dittman.net/ From jfayre at sun.com Mon Oct 8 10:59:42 2001 From: jfayre at sun.com (jfayre@sun.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:34 2005 Subject: question about vaxservers Message-ID: <200110081559.f98Fxgn01362@jfayre.cobalt.com> Hello Everyone, I have a question: Someone on Ebay is selling a Vaxserver 3100 model 10. The question is: what is the difference betwen a vaxserver and a vaxstation 3100? This wil be my first vax system. Is this a good one to grab? I'm new to this, so any help would be apreciated. From cmcmanis at mcmanis.com Mon Oct 8 15:26:43 2001 From: cmcmanis at mcmanis.com (Chuck McManis) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:34 2005 Subject: question about vaxservers In-Reply-To: <200110081559.f98Fxgn01362@jfayre.cobalt.com> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20011008132022.00a2f1c0@mcmanis.com> The short answer is this: Same difference as a SPARCServer and a SPARCStation The VAXServers were licensed differently (time share users) vs the VAXStations (as a workstation). There are a few internal differences as well. As for a first VAX I'd say that no, its not really a good choice as a first VAX. My reasoning is as follows: - If your goal is to experience "VAXness" then just get a VAX 4000/VLC. Its small, reasonably quick, and can operate as either a workstation or a server. - If your goal is to write code that talks to unusual devices then get a Qbus based VAX like the MicroVAX II or a MicroVAX 3{4,5,6,8,9}00 - If your goal is to do code development, perhaps support a VMS effort then get a fast Desktop VAX 4000/90a - If you want to do both get a VAX 4000/10x and a Qbus cabinet to attach to it. If you are in the San Francisco Bay Area, I can help "VAXenate" you. :-) I've got a couple looking for new homes. --Chuck At 08:59 AM 10/8/01, you wrote: >Hello Everyone, >I have a question: >Someone on Ebay is selling a Vaxserver 3100 model 10. >The question is: what is the difference betwen a vaxserver and a vaxstation >3100? This wil be my first vax system. Is this a good one to grab? > >I'm new to this, so any help would be apreciated. From jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de Mon Oct 8 15:29:07 2001 From: jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de (jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:34 2005 Subject: Still looking In-Reply-To: <002601c1501b$9d4e0680$05ffa8c0@hx.com> Message-ID: <200110082029.WAA29212@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> On 8 Oct, Jacek Artymiak wrote: > Thanks, but will they run with my 266 Alpha chip? Don't know. look for a board for the 21064. The ...64 is much faster then the ...66 or ...68 due to better IO. > I found some docs but > they don't mention that 266 Alphas will work with these boards. Or am I > looking on the wrong places? Look at ftp://ftp.digital.com or ftp://ftp.netbsd.org/pub/NetBSD/misc/dec-docs/index.html -- tsch??, Jochen Homepage: http://www.unixag-kl.fh-kl.de/~jkunz/ From healyzh at aracnet.com Mon Oct 8 15:36:31 2001 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:34 2005 Subject: question about vaxservers In-Reply-To: from "jfayre@sun.com" at Oct 08, 2001 11:59:42 AM Message-ID: <200110082036.f98KaVF30574@shell1.aracnet.com> > Hello Everyone, > I have a question: > Someone on Ebay is selling a Vaxserver 3100 model 10. > The question is: what is the difference betwen a vaxserver and a vaxstation > 3100? This wil be my first vax system. Is this a good one to grab? > > I'm new to this, so any help would be apreciated. The only *physical* difference is the lack of graphics hardware on the VAXserver, however, the more important difference is that a VAXserver requires different licenses than a VAXstation. This isn't that important if you're using a Hobbyist license though. Where this becomes important is if you've got a VAXstation with Commercial licenses and try to run it headless and without a keyboard (at which point the OS thinks it's running on a VAXserver). As for if it's a good system to grab, it's not a bad system, but there are better, and the external SCSI port is probably non-standard (requireing a special DEC cable. I'd personally recommend a VAXstation 4000/VLC as a first VAX. OTOH, the 3100m10 should hopefully go for next to nothing, which does make it attractive. Plus you can temporarily hook a CD-ROM up to the internal SCSI cable to load VMS. Zane From jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de Mon Oct 8 15:39:11 2001 From: jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de (jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:34 2005 Subject: question about vaxservers In-Reply-To: <200110081559.f98Fxgn01362@jfayre.cobalt.com> Message-ID: <200110082039.WAA29222@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> On 8 Oct, jfayre@sun.com wrote: > Someone on Ebay is selling a Vaxserver 3100 model 10. > The question is: what is the difference betwen a vaxserver and a vaxstation > 3100? The VAXserver has no framebuffer. > This wil be my first vax system. Is this a good one to grab? Depends on what you want. It is not the fastest machine (2 to 4 VUPs / MIPS) but a very nice machine to play with. I entered the non-PeeCee / classic computing world with a VAXserver 3100. Now I am addicted to old Unix machines and in particular VAXen. :-) -- tsch??, Jochen Homepage: http://www.unixag-kl.fh-kl.de/~jkunz/ From DAW at yalepress3.unipress.yale.edu Mon Oct 8 15:49:55 2001 From: DAW at yalepress3.unipress.yale.edu (David Woyciesjes) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:34 2005 Subject: Looking for documentation/info Message-ID: <9011A52E011ED311B4280004AC1BA61501467144@yalepress3.unipress.yale.edu> I have a Unisys 486 computer. It's a SX-25, with a DX-50 in it also. It's mfg date is 10/92, and style number is SG-3102-425. It's "plateau" is labelled Evaluation Unit A. That would explain the XXXX in the FCC ID field... On the motherboard itself, it has a sticker with... 43611896-000 PW300 486SX/25 9240 AVEX ...while near the 30-pin memory, printed on the board is... UNISYS PW2 300/486 PWBA 43188028-000 Does anyone know where I can find out what the jumpers do on this board? Or other specs for it? I though I heard someone mention dual processor WRT this board, but I doubt it. There is also a smaller LIF socket next to the 2 LIF processor sockets. IIRC, that is for a 487 math co-processor... --- David A Woyciesjes --- C & IS Support Specialist --- Yale University Press --- mailto:david.woyciesjes@yale.edu --- (203) 432-0953 --- ICQ # - 905818 From pete at dunnington.u-net.com Mon Oct 8 15:56:02 2001 From: pete at dunnington.u-net.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:34 2005 Subject: CBM8032 - wobbly screen (The saga continues) In-Reply-To: Jan Koller "Re: CBM8032 - wobbly screen (The saga continues)" (Oct 8, 13:36) References: <5.1.0.14.0.20011007020549.0244c940@192.168.1.2> <5.1.0.14.0.20011008015737.02468210@192.168.1.2> <3BC1E412.EA79691C@verizon.net> Message-ID: <10110082156.ZM7489@mindy.dunnington.u-net.com> On Oct 8, 13:36, Jan Koller wrote: > > > Anneal - is that where you heat it up & hit it with a hammer? Or do you > > just heat it up and let it cool again? I forget now... It's been a long > > long time since I had any metalwork lessons. > > Heat to cherry red, then cool very slowly, often covered in lime, IIRC, > to hold the heat in. The very slow cooling keeps the metal soft, vs > cooling quickly ( quenching ) to harden. For mild steel, yes. You need to let it "soak" in the heat for about an hour per inch of thickness for it to be fully effective, too. For other metals, the temperatures vary and the slow cooling is usually unnecessary. In fact, for mumetal (as used for magnetic sheilding) the typical annealing temperature (to get the best magnetic properties in this case, rather than greatest malleability) is in the region of 1250 C to 1600 C (cherry red is about 800 C), and it's supposed to be quenched very rapidly to preserve the fine grain structure. For copper, the annealing temperature is between 400 C and 750 C depending on impurities and how it was hardened, and it doesn't make much difference whether it's quenched or not. -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager University of York From jruschme at Mac.com Mon Oct 8 17:46:03 2001 From: jruschme at Mac.com (John Ruschmeyer) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:34 2005 Subject: Looking for documentation/info In-Reply-To: <9011A52E011ED311B4280004AC1BA61501467144@yalepress3.unipress.yale.edu> Message-ID: > From: David Woyciesjes > Date: Mon, 8 Oct 2001 16:49:55 -0400 > > I have a Unisys 486 computer. It's a SX-25, with a DX-50 in it also. > It's mfg date is 10/92, and style number is SG-3102-425. It's "plateau" is > labelled Evaluation Unit A. That would explain the XXXX in the FCC ID > field... > On the motherboard itself, it has a sticker with... > 43611896-000 > PW300 486SX/25 > 9240 AVEX Sounds like a 486SX/25 system upgraded to a DX2/50 with an OverDrive chip. > ...while near the 30-pin memory, printed on the board is... > UNISYS > PW2 300/486 > PWBA 43188028-000 > > Does anyone know where I can find out what the jumpers do on this board? Or > other specs for it? I though I heard someone mention dual processor WRT this > board, but I doubt it. There is also a smaller LIF socket next to the 2 LIF > processor sockets. IIRC, that is for a 487 math co-processor... I doubt that its for a 487... I almost wonder if this was some kind of 386/486 board. <<>> From jhellige at earthlink.net Mon Oct 8 18:50:39 2001 From: jhellige at earthlink.net (Jeff Hellige) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:34 2005 Subject: Osborne OCC1 In-Reply-To: <499.678T2050T7986151optimus@canit.se> References: <499.678T2050T7986151optimus@canit.se> Message-ID: >Won't just about every modem talk to slower ones? If they still follow the older Bell 103 and 212A standards, which most, if not all, of the newer modems I've used still do. If the older equipment you're trying to connect to predates those, or just doesn't follow them, then that's a whole different story. >I only started with modeming at 2400 bps, and that was just because my USR >Courier dual standard (V32" /and/ HST! =) was uncooperative. I started out with an old Racal-Vadic modem that had been used on a serial terminal to dial into a mainframe. It was 1200bps so was fairly speedy still when I got it. Jeff -- Home of the TRS-80 Model 2000 FAQ File http://www.cchaven.com http://www.geocities.com/siliconvalley/lakes/6757 From manney at hmcltd.net Mon Oct 8 18:57:03 2001 From: manney at hmcltd.net (PG Manney) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:34 2005 Subject: Ribbons References: Message-ID: <002701c15054$ee6d4ce0$81e3cfd8@computer> 6 Diablo HypeType II ribbons (2 used) Shipping should be a couple of bucks. Anyone want it (them)? manney@hmcltd.net From jhellige at earthlink.net Mon Oct 8 19:01:05 2001 From: jhellige at earthlink.net (Jeff Hellige) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:34 2005 Subject: Oddball memory (?) sticks.... In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: > > The 68 pin is early Macintosh Vram, around the Quadra era I think. > >Does it also work in NeXT color slabs? I may be wrong about this, as I don't feel like lifting the NeXT 17" color monitor off of my slab at the moment to check, but I don't believe the slabs VRAM is upgradable at all. I believe only the system RAM and the DSP RAM are upgradable. Jeff -- Home of the TRS-80 Model 2000 FAQ File http://www.cchaven.com http://www.geocities.com/siliconvalley/lakes/6757 From DAW at yalepress3.unipress.yale.edu Mon Oct 8 19:12:37 2001 From: DAW at yalepress3.unipress.yale.edu (David Woyciesjes) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:34 2005 Subject: Looking for documentation/info Message-ID: <9011A52E011ED311B4280004AC1BA61501467146@yalepress3.unipress.yale.edu> !From: John Ruschmeyer [mailto:jruschme@Mac.com] ! !> From: David Woyciesjes !> Date: Mon, 8 Oct 2001 16:49:55 -0400 !> !> I have a Unisys 486 computer. It's a SX-25, with a DX-50 in it also. !> It's mfg date is 10/92, and style number is SG-3102-425. !>t's "plateau" is !> labelled Evaluation Unit A. That would explain the XXXX in the FCC ID !> field... !> On the motherboard itself, it has a sticker with... !> 43611896-000 !> PW300 486SX/25 !> 9240 AVEX ! !Sounds like a 486SX/25 system upgraded to a DX2/50 with an !OverDrive chip. Close. But they are both regular 486 processors. 486SX/25 & 486DX2/50 !> ...while near the 30-pin memory, printed on the board is... !> UNISYS !> PW2 300/486 !> PWBA 43188028-000 !> !> Does anyone know where I can find out what the jumpers do on !> this board? Or other specs for it? I though I heard someone !> mention dual processor WRT this board, but I doubt it. There !> is also a smaller LIF socket next to the 2 LIF !> processor sockets. IIRC, that is for a 487 math co-processor... ! !I doubt that its for a 487... I almost wonder if this was some kind of !386/486 board. Well, it's a 15x15 pin socket, similar to the 17x17 socket for the 486 processors... If only I had the docs... I'd like to find out how fast I can push this board... --- David A Woyciesjes --- C & IS Support Specialist --- Yale University Press --- mailto:david.woyciesjes@yale.edu --- (203) 432-0953 --- ICQ # - 905818 From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Oct 8 17:11:21 2001 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:34 2005 Subject: CBM8032 - wobbly screen (The saga continues) In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20011008015737.02468210@192.168.1.2> from "Adrian Vickers" at Oct 8, 1 02:19:22 am Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 2958 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20011008/4bb7427e/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Oct 8 17:15:10 2001 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:34 2005 Subject: 6502 BASIC or Assembler and Intel 8271/WDC 1770 info req'd In-Reply-To: from "Fred Cisin" at Oct 7, 1 07:08:14 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1259 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20011008/d63abb0f/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Oct 8 16:48:30 2001 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:34 2005 Subject: CBM8032 - wobbly screen (The saga continues) In-Reply-To: <3.0.2.32.20011007160115.017a3644@obregon.multi.net.co> from "Carlos Murillo" at Oct 7, 1 04:01:15 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 857 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20011008/5927fe17/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Oct 8 17:24:25 2001 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:34 2005 Subject: 6502 BASIC or Assembler and Intel 8271/WDC 1770 info req'd In-Reply-To: from "Don Maslin" at Oct 7, 1 09:48:29 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 592 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20011008/20a49ce4/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Oct 8 17:01:18 2001 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:34 2005 Subject: 6502 BASIC or Assembler and Intel 8271/WDC 1770 info req'd In-Reply-To: <001e01c14f78$26ae1fe0$8b9a7ad5@phoenix> from "Philip Pemberton" at Oct 7, 1 10:36:39 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1829 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20011008/dc459049/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Oct 8 17:06:06 2001 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:34 2005 Subject: 6502 BASIC or Assembler and Intel 8271/WDC 1770 info req'd In-Reply-To: from "Don Maslin" at Oct 7, 1 05:38:39 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1381 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20011008/3df3214c/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Oct 8 18:21:25 2001 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:34 2005 Subject: IBM ROM BASIC or lack thereof In-Reply-To: <3820E2042B6ED5118DC200D0B78EDC4706617B@exc-reo1> from "Carlini, Antonio" at Oct 8, 1 02:57:29 am Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 6821 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20011009/2396bb21/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Oct 8 18:29:24 2001 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:34 2005 Subject: IBM ROM BASIC or lack thereof In-Reply-To: <3820E2042B6ED5118DC200D0B78EDC4706617C@exc-reo1> from "Carlini, Antonio" at Oct 8, 1 03:09:46 am Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 3723 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20011009/4d4ab313/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Oct 8 18:37:43 2001 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:34 2005 Subject: 6502 BASIC or Assembler and Intel 8271/WDC 1770 info req'd In-Reply-To: from "Fred Cisin" at Oct 8, 1 09:27:37 am Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 817 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20011009/bbc90f8d/attachment.ksh From jfoust at threedee.com Mon Oct 8 19:26:06 2001 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:34 2005 Subject: old computer sounds In-Reply-To: References: <15293.8842.491198.175645@phaduka.neurotica.com> Message-ID: <4.3.2.7.0.20011008192152.0234a6c0@pc> At 12:57 AM 10/5/01 -0400, Absurdly Obtuse wrote: >I *love* that sound. Another good one is the IBM WDA-105. That was a >nice-sounding drive. Another melodic one. Only 5 megs though. This weekend in the cheesy Sunday paper magazine there was a story of an old guy who records the sounds of machines gone by: trains, trucks, saws, etc. Is someone out there making recordings of old computers? I certainly daydreamed about adding sound to an emulator, so you could hear the clunk-clunk of an eight-inch floppy drive... I would guess that the recording requirements might be quite high: some old sounds have some very high, very low or very quiet components. For that matter, video recordings of old computers booting or running a classic program record the elements of *time* and screen characteristics that may be lost in an emulator running at 1000x speed on a PC. - John From jhellige at earthlink.net Mon Oct 8 19:43:30 2001 From: jhellige at earthlink.net (Jeff Hellige) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:34 2005 Subject: Looking for documentation/info In-Reply-To: <9011A52E011ED311B4280004AC1BA61501467146@yalepress3.unipress.yale.edu> References: <9011A52E011ED311B4280004AC1BA61501467146@yalepress3.unipress.yale.edu> Message-ID: >Close. But they are both regular 486 processors. 486SX/25 & 486DX2/50 Makes sense since the DX2 was internally clock doubled but used the same external 25mhz clock as the DX and SX chips, the SX being the same with the exception of having the math-coprocessor section disabled. Jeff -- Home of the TRS-80 Model 2000 FAQ File http://www.cchaven.com http://www.geocities.com/siliconvalley/lakes/6757 From optimus at canit.se Mon Oct 8 19:14:02 2001 From: optimus at canit.se (Iggy Drougge) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:34 2005 Subject: Half-duplex VT420? Message-ID: <859.682T100T743593optimus@canit.se> Since I'll be running another headless computer (HP 9000/380), I brought home my VT420. Nice terminal, but unfortunately this specimen will only talk, not listen. At first, I suspected my HP had lost its settings (the stupid boot PROM must be set via the keyboard to use a serial console). I proceeded to bring my HIL keyboard home and set it (without any screen) to use a "remote" console again, and the machine seemed to acknowledge that, beeping happily. But no response from the terminal. So I tested it with my DECstation. No response there either. So I hooked it up to my Amiga. Typing at the keyboard, there was output in NComm, but doing the opposite didn't work at all. So we have only one-way communication. What could be the problem? The cable works fine, I'm getting -- En ligne avec Thor 2.6a. Allt ?r under kontroll, och caps lock ?r bredvid. From optimus at canit.se Mon Oct 8 20:47:13 2001 From: optimus at canit.se (Iggy Drougge) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:34 2005 Subject: Still looking In-Reply-To: <200110081801.f98I1K015842@narnia.int.dittman.net> Message-ID: <949.682T650T1674503optimus@canit.se> Eric Dittman skrev: >> > The 21064 should work in a PC64 and the 21164 should work in either an >> > EB164 or PC164. I've got extra PC64, EB164, and PC164 motherboards but >> > you're overseas so finding one nearer to you would probably be cheaper. >> >> Do you know where I could find some docs that I could check to see if my >> Alpha chips will work with these boards? I downloaded Digital/Compaq docs, >> but can't find any informoation that confirms that these chips will work >> with the boards you mention. >The motherboard manuals were on the Digital website. They have probably >moved around since I looked at them last. I'll see if I have the PDF >files stuck somewhere. Is this what you're looking for? ftp://ftp.europe.digital.com//pub/DEC/axppci/design_guide.ps.Z -- En ligne avec Thor 2.6a. Och har du en TV utan Scart, vilket nittionio procent faktiskt har, kommer de f?rmodligen att ringa fr?n Antikrundan. Martin Timell From mcguire at neurotica.com Mon Oct 8 20:29:14 2001 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:34 2005 Subject: Half-duplex VT420? In-Reply-To: Half-duplex VT420? (Iggy Drougge) References: <859.682T100T743593optimus@canit.se> Message-ID: <15298.21226.650841.982801@phaduka.neurotica.com> On October 9, Iggy Drougge wrote: > Since I'll be running another headless computer (HP 9000/380), I brought home > my VT420. Nice terminal, but unfortunately this specimen will only talk, not > listen. > At first, I suspected my HP had lost its settings (the stupid boot PROM must > be set via the keyboard to use a serial console). I proceeded to bring my HIL > keyboard home and set it (without any screen) to use a "remote" console again, > and the machine seemed to acknowledge that, beeping happily. But no response > from the terminal. So I tested it with my DECstation. No response there > either. So I hooked it up to my Amiga. Typing at the keyboard, there was > output in NComm, but doing the opposite didn't work at all. > So we have only one-way communication. What could be the problem? Is flow control enabled on the terminal? I assume you're using a DB25 adapter at the other end of an MMJ cable. Try turning off flow control in the communications setup menu and shorting pins 2-3 on the connector. At that point the terminal should echo what you type back to the display. If it doesn't, you might have a toasty RS232 line receiver in your terminal. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Laurel, MD From optimus at canit.se Mon Oct 8 21:44:56 2001 From: optimus at canit.se (Iggy Drougge) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:34 2005 Subject: Free terminal Message-ID: <1039.682T2800T2245989optimus@canit.se> I found this on USENET. Interesting? Mon, 08 Oct 2001 20:36:40 comp.sys.atari.st Thread 37 of 38 Lines 10 Free Terminal No responses DAVID L. ORMAND at Arizona State University Newsgroups: comp.sys.atari.st I know this isn't quite the forum for this, but maybe there are old computer types out there (mainframe hobbyists?) who would be interested. I've rescued a practically new-in-box Visual 50, which is an ASCII RS232 terminal with your classic green CRT look. It handles VT52 and ADM3A protocols. Includes operator's and maintenance manuals (with schematics!). I've tried it out and it works fine. I don't want anything but the shipping to a good home from Tucson, 85711. -- En ligne avec Thor 2.6a. About 15 years ago(in 1984), I played many time HYDLIDE like monkey's self- acting! HaHaHa!! Here in Nippon(Japan), many many MSX Freak played HYDLIDE 1/2/3 on MSX1/2. Perhaps, also you like HYDLIDE series!!! K. Ikeda, MSX-Print From optimus at canit.se Mon Oct 8 21:55:40 2001 From: optimus at canit.se (Iggy Drougge) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:34 2005 Subject: Squealing CRTs In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <2057.682T2000T2355165optimus@canit.se> Tony Duell skrev: >> >No, that's the deflection yoke. The flyback transformer is on the PCB >> >normally. The easy way to find it most of the time is to follow the EHT >> >cable from the flare of the CRT back to a plastic-encased lump on the >> >PCB. That's normally the flyback transformer (it could be a voltage >> >multiplier in some older colour monitors, but I don't think that's an >> >issue here). >> >> All right, I stole some sticks of hot glue from the scale modellers and >> poured it onto the thing which looks like this: >The place to put it is between the ferrite core and the block containing >the windings (with all the connecting pins on the bottom) IOW, between the big block and the little handle? That was hard to reach. >> ,-----------. >> | _ | >> | | |WARNING| >> | | | HIGH | >> | | |VOLTAGE| >> | | | | >> |_| |_______| >> >That looks just like a flyback transformer :-) It looks like a kettle to me. =) >> Then I let it dry and turned it on. Still the same horrible sound. I walked >> around the thing for a bit, and it seemed as though the noise emanated from >> the black cage containg what is probably the mains transformer. >Sounds like a switch mode PSU. Any transformer can vibrate, such as the >one in the SMPSU circuit. Now, it should oscillate at an ultrasonic >frequency so you won't hear it, but dried up capacitors in the SMPSU >circuit can make the thing drop in frequency, sometimes with no other >effects... The old dried up capacaitors problem... >If you can get an ESR meter (and IMHO if you repair monitors or SMPSUs >you _need_ some way of measuring the effective series resistance of >capacitors) then you could test all the electrolytics in the power supply >section. I don't intend to take up high-voltage repairs as another hobby of mine. I'm too intent on keeping on living with all my bodily functions intact. -- En ligne avec Thor 2.6a. G? med i SUGA, Swedish Usergroup of Amiga! WWW: http://swedish.usergroup.amiga.tm/ BBS: 08-6582572, telnet://sua.ath.cx:42512 From mikeford at socal.rr.com Mon Oct 8 20:45:42 2001 From: mikeford at socal.rr.com (Mike Ford) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:34 2005 Subject: Looking for documentation/info In-Reply-To: References: <9011A52E011ED311B4280004AC1BA61501467144@yalepress3.unipress.yale.edu> Message-ID: >> From: David Woyciesjes >> Date: Mon, 8 Oct 2001 16:49:55 -0400 >> >> I have a Unisys 486 computer. It's a SX-25, with a DX-50 in it also. >> It's mfg date is 10/92, and style number is SG-3102-425. It's "plateau" is >> labelled Evaluation Unit A. That would explain the XXXX in the FCC ID >> field... >> On the motherboard itself, it has a sticker with... >> 43611896-000 >> PW300 486SX/25 >> 9240 AVEX > >Sounds like a 486SX/25 system upgraded to a DX2/50 with an OverDrive chip. Or somebody stuck in a DX-50 and its just running at 25 MHz. From Diff at Mac.com Mon Oct 8 21:18:55 2001 From: Diff at Mac.com (Zach Malone) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:34 2005 Subject: Half-duplex VT420? References: <859.682T100T743593optimus@canit.se> <15298.21226.650841.982801@phaduka.neurotica.com> Message-ID: <000d01c15068$bfc3b6e0$6401a8c0@laboffice> The HP 9000/380 machines uses a 9 pin RS-232 cable for console access, make certain you are not connecting to parallel. I have one of them, it has to be one of the sturdiest desktop machines I own. Zach ----- Original Message ----- From: "Dave McGuire" To: Sent: Monday, October 08, 2001 9:29 PM Subject: Re: Half-duplex VT420? > On October 9, Iggy Drougge wrote: > > Since I'll be running another headless computer (HP 9000/380), I brought home > > my VT420. Nice terminal, but unfortunately this specimen will only talk, not > > listen. > > At first, I suspected my HP had lost its settings (the stupid boot PROM must > > be set via the keyboard to use a serial console). I proceeded to bring my HIL > > keyboard home and set it (without any screen) to use a "remote" console again, > > and the machine seemed to acknowledge that, beeping happily. But no response > > from the terminal. So I tested it with my DECstation. No response there > > either. So I hooked it up to my Amiga. Typing at the keyboard, there was > > output in NComm, but doing the opposite didn't work at all. > > So we have only one-way communication. What could be the problem? > > Is flow control enabled on the terminal? I assume you're using a > DB25 adapter at the other end of an MMJ cable. Try turning off flow > control in the communications setup menu and shorting pins 2-3 on the > connector. At that point the terminal should echo what you type back > to the display. If it doesn't, you might have a toasty RS232 line > receiver in your terminal. > > -Dave > > -- > Dave McGuire > Laurel, MD From acme_ent at bellsouth.net Sun Oct 7 23:36:03 2001 From: acme_ent at bellsouth.net (Glen Goodwin) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:34 2005 Subject: ZX Spectrum internals (Was: ZX81 kits) Message-ID: <20011009022050.NBNY9785.imf11bis.bellsouth.net@thegoodw> Tony Duell wrote: > Sinclair would never do anything that would cost a few pence more, even > if it made the machine more useable, or work better (or in a couple of > classic cases, even work at all). Which Sinclair machines are you referring to here -- which ones didn't "even work at all?" Glen 0/0 From optimus at canit.se Mon Oct 8 22:43:04 2001 From: optimus at canit.se (Iggy Drougge) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:34 2005 Subject: Half-duplex VT420? In-Reply-To: <15298.21226.650841.982801@phaduka.neurotica.com> Message-ID: <2518.682T200T2834185optimus@canit.se> Dave McGuire skrev: >On October 9, Iggy Drougge wrote: >> Since I'll be running another headless computer (HP 9000/380), I brought >> home my VT420. Nice terminal, but unfortunately this specimen will only >> talk, not listen. At first, I suspected my HP had lost its settings (the >> stupid boot PROM must be set via the keyboard to use a serial console). I >> proceeded to bring my HIL keyboard home and set it (without any screen) to >> use a "remote" console again, and the machine seemed to acknowledge that, >> beeping happily. But no response from the terminal. So I tested it with my >> DECstation. No response there either. So I hooked it up to my Amiga. Typing >> at the keyboard, there was output in NComm, but doing the opposite didn't >> work at all. So we have only one-way communication. What could be the >> problem? > Is flow control enabled on the terminal? I assume you're using a >DB25 adapter at the other end of an MMJ cable. Try turning off flow >control in the communications setup menu and shorting pins 2-3 on the >connector. At that point the terminal should echo what you type back >to the display. If it doesn't, you might have a toasty RS232 line >receiver in your terminal. Actually, my VT420 is equipped with a DB25 port. I haven't tried the MMJ port yet due to my currently frosty relations visavis that interface (I spent a lot of effort soldering a twisted cable a while ago for connecting to a MicroVAX, then it turned out that I had un- twisted the cable instead! =). There is no option in my setup (version 1.3) for turning off flow control, it's either XON/XOFF (two different intervals) or modem control (RTS/CTS?). Modem control doesn't work. Either the cable I'm using right now is a three- wire one or the VT has lost the ability to sense those signals, since it will just "wait" if that option is activated. I've used the HP box with another VT420, which worked fine. But this VT has disagreed with three systems now. I'll try the loopback trick, though. But if I have a toasted line driver, wouldn't that strike both inbound and outbound data? -- En ligne avec Thor 2.6a. When cherry tree blooms, people go and walk there, eat dumpling, bring sake and talk each other such things as "A superb view!" and "Full of spring here", and they become very happily and cheerful. But this is a lie. People gather below cherry trees and get drunk, vomit, fight, which are happening since the old days of Edo period. From long time ago. THE FULL OF CHERRY BOOLMS, CHAPTER 1 From jhellige at earthlink.net Mon Oct 8 22:07:02 2001 From: jhellige at earthlink.net (Jeff Hellige) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:34 2005 Subject: Looking for documentation/info In-Reply-To: References: <9011A52E011ED311B4280004AC1BA61501467144@yalepress3.unipress.yale.edu> Message-ID: > >> From: David Woyciesjes >>> Date: Mon, 8 Oct 2001 16:49:55 -0400 >>> >>> I have a Unisys 486 computer. It's a SX-25, with a DX-50 in it also. >>> It's mfg date is 10/92, and style number is SG-3102-425. It's "plateau" is >>> labelled Evaluation Unit A. That would explain the XXXX in the FCC ID >>> field... >>> On the motherboard itself, it has a sticker with... >>> 43611896-000 >>> PW300 486SX/25 >>> 9240 AVEX >> >>Sounds like a 486SX/25 system upgraded to a DX2/50 with an OverDrive chip. > >Or somebody stuck in a DX-50 and its just running at 25 MHz. If the chip inserted into the other socket is a plain DX-50 then it would be just running at 25mhz. The insertion of the DX-50 or a 487 'coprocessor' would've disabled the SX-25 as well, if it was left installed. Too bad the DX-50 got such a bad rap for heat problems early on. BTW, does anyone know how the mainboard tells the difference between the 486SX and a 486DX/487? Just looking at them, there aren't any pin differences externally, at least between the 486DX-33 and 486SX-25 I have sitting here. Jeff -- Home of the TRS-80 Model 2000 FAQ File http://www.cchaven.com http://www.geocities.com/siliconvalley/lakes/6757 From mcguire at neurotica.com Mon Oct 8 22:08:18 2001 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:34 2005 Subject: Half-duplex VT420? In-Reply-To: Re: Half-duplex VT420? (Iggy Drougge) References: <15298.21226.650841.982801@phaduka.neurotica.com> <2518.682T200T2834185optimus@canit.se> Message-ID: <15298.27170.803605.575625@phaduka.neurotica.com> On October 9, Iggy Drougge wrote: > But if I have a toasted line driver, wouldn't that strike both inbound and > outbound data? Nope...many RS232 interfaces are built with 1488 driver and 1489 receiver chips. Nowadays the Maxim MAX232 (and family) chips are popular for that sort of thing since they only require +5V...but I'll bet the VT420 uses 1488/1489 chips. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Laurel, MD From optimus at canit.se Mon Oct 8 23:15:29 2001 From: optimus at canit.se (Iggy Drougge) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:34 2005 Subject: Half-duplex VT420? In-Reply-To: <000d01c15068$bfc3b6e0$6401a8c0@laboffice> Message-ID: <533.682T1450T3154663optimus@canit.se> Zach Malone skrev: >The HP 9000/380 machines uses a 9 pin RS-232 cable for console access, make >certain you are not connecting to parallel. I have one of them, it has to >be one of the sturdiest desktop machines I own. Of course not. Thankfully, it's got a PC-style serial port, as opposed to the old HP 9-pin one. I really like the 380 too, but is it really supposed to run that hot? After an hour or so, the case is so hot, it burns! I suspect the Topcat (6-bitplane) card to be the prime suspect. -- En ligne avec Thor 2.6a. From geoffr at zipcon.net Mon Oct 8 22:54:58 2001 From: geoffr at zipcon.net (Geoff Reed) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:34 2005 Subject: Squealing CRTs In-Reply-To: <2057.682T2000T2355165optimus@canit.se> References: Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20011008205422.00a3b6a0@mail.zipcon.net> At 03:55 AM 10/9/01 +0100, you wrote: >I don't intend to take up high-voltage repairs as another hobby of mine. I'm >too intent on keeping on living with all my bodily functions intact. Aw, you haven't lived until you've been kicked across the room by a HV powersupply From erd_6502 at yahoo.com Mon Oct 8 23:14:28 2001 From: erd_6502 at yahoo.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:34 2005 Subject: Half-duplex VT420? In-Reply-To: <15298.27170.803605.575625@phaduka.neurotica.com> Message-ID: <20011009041428.40748.qmail@web20104.mail.yahoo.com> --- Dave McGuire wrote: > On October 9, Iggy Drougge wrote: > > But if I have a toasted line driver, wouldn't that strike both inbound > > and outbound data? Nope... there's line drivers and line receivers. > Nope...many RS232 interfaces are built with 1488 driver and 1489 > receiver chips. Nowadays the Maxim MAX232 (and family) chips are > popular for that sort of thing since they only require +5V... Depending on the nature of the circuit - Maxim chips are somewhat expensive. Older ones use external caps and those are comparitively expensive, too. If you _don't_ have a ready supply of +/-12V, though, a Maxim chip might be cheaper. > but I'll bet the VT420 uses 1488/1489 chips. Since it's a modern DEC terminal, I'll bet it uses 9636/9637 chips. Those came in with the VT220. -ethan __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? NEW from Yahoo! GeoCities - quick and easy web site hosting, just $8.95/month. http://geocities.yahoo.com/ps/info1 From pete at dunnington.u-net.com Tue Oct 9 02:33:20 2001 From: pete at dunnington.u-net.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:34 2005 Subject: CBM8032 - wobbly screen (The saga continues) In-Reply-To: ard@p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) "Re: CBM8032 - wobbly screen (The saga continues)" (Oct 8, 23:11) References: Message-ID: <10110090833.ZM7822@mindy.dunnington.u-net.com> On Oct 8, 23:11, Tony Duell wrote: > > Anneal - is that where you heat it up & hit it with a hammer? Or do you > > just heat it up and let it cool again? I forget now... It's been a long > > Heat it up and let it cool slowly (very slowly). Only for steel. Most other metals either don't care (unless the quenching is incredibly rapid) or actually require to be quenched. -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager University of York From avickers at solutionengineers.com Tue Oct 9 04:27:43 2001 From: avickers at solutionengineers.com (Adrian Vickers) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:34 2005 Subject: CBM8032 - wobbly screen (The saga continues) In-Reply-To: References: <5.1.0.14.0.20011008015737.02468210@192.168.1.2> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20011009102313.0956f7d8@192.168.1.2> At 23:11 08/10/2001, you wrote: > > > Well, a screwdriver bit. It's one of those 1.5in long bits which go into a > > handle, or drill. > >OK. Still a fair size piece of metal to move, and thus a fair size >external field. True.... > > >OK, take the loads off the transformer. Pull the power connector off the > > >mainboard, and unplug the cable to the monitor. Is there still the same > > >stray field (if so, suspect shorted turns or similar in the transformer). > > > > Yes, it's still there, albeit not quite so strongly. Still enough to > induce > > a noticable vibration in my magnet-on-a-stick. > >It does sound as though you have transformer problems. You're making me >curious enough to dig out one of my PETs and experiment with the >transformer sometime just to see what I can detect. I've got 4 PETs of various types here: The 2001 & 3016 have transformers with steel bands around them - the 2001 screen is stable, the 3016 wobbles, but almost imperceptably. The 8032 and 8032-SK have a different type of transformer (without the steel band), and wobble very noticably. It could have been a cost-cutting exercise by CBM, with the result that the 8032 transformers are breaking down more quickly. > > No, not ridiculous (at least, I don't think so), but there is a noticable > > increase when the monitor load is added. > >Interesting. So it might be PSU problems in the monitor. IIRC the monitor >has a bridge rectifier input circuit. Check all 4 diodes and the >soldering to them. If one is open you might have problems like this. I shall give it a try tonight. > > I've not got around to the multimeter test yet - I need to take the > > mainboard out to access the underside, and that's not a task to be > doing at > > 2:20am.... > >Odd, I normally do delicate work like that at night. It's the one time >you are not going to be disturbed while working on the system... Hmm, I get tired & clumsy after about 1am - I start losing bits, forgetting to make sure I'm earthed before touching chips & things. Far safer to switch the 'phone off and do it straight after work... -- Cheers, Ade. Be where it's at, B-Racing! http://b-racing.co.uk -------------- next part -------------- --- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.282 / Virus Database: 150 - Release Date: 25/09/2001 From menadeau at mediaone.net Tue Oct 9 06:40:33 2001 From: menadeau at mediaone.net (Michael Nadeau) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:34 2005 Subject: BBS documentary in the works References: <10110090833.ZM7822@mindy.dunnington.u-net.com> Message-ID: <002a01c150b7$380d0860$0c01a8c0@michaelnadeau> Someone on another list just sent me this link. This guy is doing a film documentary on the history of BBSes, and I thought that some folks here might have information to help out. http://www.bbsdocumentary.com/ --Mike Michael Nadeau Editorial Services 603-893-2379 From cmurillo at emtelsa.multi.net.co Tue Oct 9 06:53:10 2001 From: cmurillo at emtelsa.multi.net.co (Carlos Murillo) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:34 2005 Subject: Half-duplex VT420? In-Reply-To: <533.682T1450T3154663optimus@canit.se> References: <000d01c15068$bfc3b6e0$6401a8c0@laboffice> Message-ID: <3.0.2.32.20011009075310.0107a8e8@obregon.multi.net.co> At 05:15 AM 10/9/01 +0100, Iggy wrote: >I really like the 380 too, but is it really supposed to run that hot? After an >hour or so, the case is so hot, it burns! >I suspect the Topcat (6-bitplane) card to be the prime suspect. No, it shouldn't be that hot. I have a topcat too plus 64MB, and everything is crammed in a single-story enclosure (380's tend to be found in cases with the expansion box), and it runs just warm to the touch. Check the fans and look for dustbunnies clogging the circulation. carlos. -------------------------------------------------------------- Carlos E. Murillo-Sanchez carlos_murillo@nospammers.ieee.org From cmurillo at emtelsa.multi.net.co Tue Oct 9 06:46:21 2001 From: cmurillo at emtelsa.multi.net.co (Carlos Murillo) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:34 2005 Subject: Half-duplex VT420? In-Reply-To: <000d01c15068$bfc3b6e0$6401a8c0@laboffice> References: <859.682T100T743593optimus@canit.se> <15298.21226.650841.982801@phaduka.neurotica.com> Message-ID: <3.0.2.32.20011009074621.01077db8@obregon.multi.net.co> At 10:18 PM 10/8/01 -0400, Zach wrote: >The HP 9000/380 machines uses a 9 pin RS-232 cable for console access, make >certain you are not connecting to parallel. I have one of them, it has to >be one of the sturdiest desktop machines I own. > Zach I must second that. The 300 series in general were built to last. And the HD enclosures such as the 660S (SCSI) or 7963B (HPIB) were also built like tanks. Pictures here for those who haven't seen these machines (apache running on an hp380). Take a look at the 370 in its rack as well: http://nazas.autonoma.edu.co/hp660s_1.jpg http://nazas.autonoma.edu.co/hp660s_back.jpg http://nazas.autonoma.edu.co/hp660s_inside.jpg http://nazas.autonoma.edu.co/hp7963b.jpg http://nazas.autonoma.edu.co/hp370rack.jpg carlos. -------------------------------------------------------------- Carlos E. Murillo-Sanchez carlos_murillo@nospammers.ieee.org From edick at idcomm.com Tue Oct 9 08:25:04 2001 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:34 2005 Subject: OT: Has anybody used the "ABC" AVR Basic Controller? References: <859.682T100T743593optimus@canit.se> <15298.21226.650841.982801@phaduka.neurotica.com> <3.0.2.32.20011009074621.01077db8@obregon.multi.net.co> Message-ID: <003f01c150c5$ce621b80$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> I recently acquired an AVR Basic Microcontroller "Maxi Board" which is an applicaton of the AVR 90S8535 MCU with a number of potentially useful features. However, it's got the worst set of documents that I've ever seen published for what should be a substantial product of its type. It has errors, it lacks vital description elements, e.g. which CPU pin drives which connector pin, etc. They lon longer, however, make the board I have, and, as a result, I'm hoping that the "real" doc's have simply been replaced by the ones for their current model. I'm certainly not going to buy one of their current products if this one's doc is representative of what they produce. Any info directrly acquired from dealing with the board mfg's (Investment Technologies, in AU) that you can share would be appreciated. thanks, Dick From DAW at yalepress3.unipress.yale.edu Tue Oct 9 08:54:50 2001 From: DAW at yalepress3.unipress.yale.edu (David Woyciesjes) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:35 2005 Subject: Looking for documentation/info Message-ID: <9011A52E011ED311B4280004AC1BA61501467148@yalepress3.unipress.yale.edu> ! >>Sounds like a 486SX/25 system upgraded to a DX2/50 with an ! OverDrive chip. ! > ! >Or somebody stuck in a DX-50 and its just running at 25 MHz. I ran an Evergreen test program on it last night. It said it was running at 50MHz, internally? ! If the chip inserted into the other socket is a plain DX-50 ! then it would be just running at 25mhz. The insertion of the DX-50 ! or a 487 'coprocessor' would've disabled the SX-25 as well, if it was ! left installed. Too bad the DX-50 got such a bad rap for heat ! problems early on. ! ! BTW, does anyone know how the mainboard tells the difference ! between the 486SX and a 486DX/487? Just looking at them, there ! aren't any pin differences externally, at least between the 486DX-33 ! and 486SX-25 I have sitting here. IIRC, it's how you set the jumpers for the clock multiplier, for the speed; and it does some sort of detection test for the numeric processor. I think... These clock speed jumpers are what I'd like to identify first. I have a DX4/100 just sitting here. Then, I want to identify the purpose of the other 20+ jumpers on this board... --- David A Woyciesjes --- C & IS Support Specialist --- Yale University Press --- mailto:david.woyciesjes@yale.edu --- (203) 432-0953 --- ICQ # - 905818 From optimus at canit.se Tue Oct 9 09:56:43 2001 From: optimus at canit.se (Iggy Drougge) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:35 2005 Subject: Half-duplex VT420? In-Reply-To: <3.0.2.32.20011009075310.0107a8e8@obregon.multi.net.co> Message-ID: <1177.682T2150T9565891optimus@canit.se> Carlos Murillo skrev: >At 05:15 AM 10/9/01 +0100, Iggy wrote: >>I really like the 380 too, but is it really supposed to run that hot? >After an >>hour or so, the case is so hot, it burns! >>I suspect the Topcat (6-bitplane) card to be the prime suspect. >No, it shouldn't be that hot. I have a topcat too plus 64MB, and everything >is crammed in a single-story enclosure (380's tend to be found in cases with >the expansion box), and it runs just warm to the touch. Check the fans and >look for dustbunnies clogging the circulation. No, I haven't got any expansion box. It's all crammed into a 30?30?12 cm box. An extra ethernet card is fit in the top slot. Fans? What fans? Is it supposed to have fans? One thing I found particularly sympathetic about it was the fact that it was absolutely silent. The only thing which reveals that it's running is the smell of burning ICs. -- En ligne avec Thor 2.6a. "Auf Sparc-Maschinen ist Linux weit weniger gut. Auf Maschinen mit sun4 Architektur ist NetBSD etwa 30% schneller. Wer auf so einer Maschine Linux faehrt tut es aus ideologischen Gruenden oder kennt nichts anderes." Aus: de.comp.os.unix.misc, "Was ist schneller?" From optimus at canit.se Tue Oct 9 09:48:42 2001 From: optimus at canit.se (Iggy Drougge) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:35 2005 Subject: Squealing CRTs In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20011008205422.00a3b6a0@mail.zipcon.net> Message-ID: <577.682T2100T9485489optimus@canit.se> Geoff Reed skrev: >At 03:55 AM 10/9/01 +0100, you wrote: >>I don't intend to take up high-voltage repairs as another hobby of mine. I'm >>too intent on keeping on living with all my bodily functions intact. >Aw, you haven't lived until you've been kicked across the room by a HV >powersupply I think the taste I got from a SCSI box a few months ago was enough of an appetiser. I'd rather not try again to see whether that was really HV. -- En ligne avec Thor 2.6a. Vi m?ste vara r?dda om varandra - det ?r det enda reciproka pronomen vi har. From rigdonj at intellistar.net Tue Oct 9 09:17:58 2001 From: rigdonj at intellistar.net (Joe) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:35 2005 Subject: OT: Has anybody used the "ABC" AVR Basic Controller? In-Reply-To: <003f01c150c5$ce621b80$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> References: <859.682T100T743593optimus@canit.se> <15298.21226.650841.982801@phaduka.neurotica.com> <3.0.2.32.20011009074621.01077db8@obregon.multi.net.co> Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20011009101758.007bc100@mailhost.intellistar.net> Dick, I haven't worked with the AVR stuff but I have a book that goes into good detail on them. It's the "Handbook of Microcontrollers" by Myke Predko. I'll loan it to you if you need it. There are some resources on the net that you might try, to join the List server send a message to Atmel-request@pic.co.za with "JOIN" in the body. there are acouple of related web sites at www.ipc.o.ca/people/kalle/atmel.html and www.sistudio.com and www.dsontronics.com. Joe At 07:25 AM 10/9/01 -0600, you wrote: >I recently acquired an AVR Basic Microcontroller "Maxi Board" which is an >applicaton of the AVR 90S8535 MCU with a number of potentially useful features. >However, it's got the worst set of documents that I've ever seen published for >what should be a substantial product of its type. It has errors, it lacks vital >description elements, e.g. which CPU pin drives which connector pin, etc. > >They lon longer, however, make the board I have, and, as a result, I'm hoping >that the "real" doc's have simply been replaced by the ones for their current >model. I'm certainly not going to buy one of their current products if this >one's doc is representative of what they produce. > >Any info directrly acquired from dealing with the board mfg's (Investment >Technologies, in AU) that you can share would be appreciated. > >thanks, > >Dick > > > From edick at idcomm.com Tue Oct 9 09:26:15 2001 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:35 2005 Subject: Looking for documentation/info References: <9011A52E011ED311B4280004AC1BA61501467148@yalepress3.unipress.yale.edu> Message-ID: <005301c150ce$5ad3ce80$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> see below, plz. Dick ----- Original Message ----- From: "David Woyciesjes" To: Cc: "'Jeff Hellige'" Sent: Tuesday, October 09, 2001 7:54 AM Subject: RE: Looking for documentation/info > ! >>Sounds like a 486SX/25 system upgraded to a DX2/50 with an > ! OverDrive chip. > ! > > ! >Or somebody stuck in a DX-50 and its just running at 25 MHz. > You didn't need an "overdrive" chip to make a DX2/50 run at 50 MHz. Some motherboards required a jumper settings change, but the SX, DX, and DX/2 would all work in some applications. > > I ran an Evergreen test program on it last night. It said it was running at > 50MHz, internally? > > ! If the chip inserted into the other socket is a plain DX-50 > ! then it would be just running at 25mhz. The insertion of the DX-50 > ! or a 487 'coprocessor' would've disabled the SX-25 as well, if it was > ! left installed. Too bad the DX-50 got such a bad rap for heat > ! problems early on. > ! > ! BTW, does anyone know how the mainboard tells the difference > ! between the 486SX and a 486DX/487? Just looking at them, there > ! aren't any pin differences externally, at least between the 486DX-33 > ! and 486SX-25 I have sitting here. > > IIRC, it's how you set the jumpers for the clock multiplier, for the > speed; and it does some sort of detection test for the numeric processor. I > think... Why not believe what the POST messages tell you? They should proclaim the clock speed at which the CPU's running if the board/BIOS combination will support it. BTW, I've owned several Intel DX2/50's and every one would happily run at 80 MHz without a hiccup or complaint in most motherboards. They did like a heatsink and fan, however, but there was no need for low-voltage adapters or any other such thing. > These clock speed jumpers are what I'd like to identify first. I > have a DX4/100 just sitting here. Then, I want to identify the purpose of > the other 20+ jumpers on this board... > > --- David A Woyciesjes > --- C & IS Support Specialist > --- Yale University Press > --- mailto:david.woyciesjes@yale.edu > --- (203) 432-0953 > --- ICQ # - 905818 > > From mythtech at Mac.com Tue Oct 9 09:34:57 2001 From: mythtech at Mac.com (Chris) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:35 2005 Subject: Squealing CRTs Message-ID: >>I don't intend to take up high-voltage repairs as another hobby of mine. I'm >>too intent on keeping on living with all my bodily functions intact. > >Aw, you haven't lived until you've been kicked across the room by a HV >powersupply I wasn't that lucky... when I did it, I shorted a cap thru my finger (fortuantly, just thru ONE finger, tip to knuckle). I was working blind in a terminal, and I thought some animal was in there that just ripped my finger off... I was really expecting to pull out my hand and see a stump where my finger had been. Instead I had a really cool exit wound on the tip of my pointer (but not as cool as the one on my elbow when I shorted theater lighting thru my forearm) -chris From optimus at canit.se Tue Oct 9 10:56:07 2001 From: optimus at canit.se (Iggy Drougge) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:35 2005 Subject: VMS, UCX, DHCP? Message-ID: <425.682T350T10164155optimus@canit.se> Now that I've got "broadband", I'd like to see my VAXstation on the net. It's running VMS 5.1 and UCX, but does it have any DHCP capabilities? It's not a great problem, but if there is some option for getting config info via DHCP, it'd save me the trouble of setting up a NetBSD environment in order to run dhclient. =) -- En ligne avec Thor 2.6a. Amiga 4000/040 25MHz/64MB/20GB RetinaBLTZ3/VLab/FastlaneZ3/Ariadne/Toccata From cmurillo at multi.net.co Tue Oct 9 00:50:08 2001 From: cmurillo at multi.net.co (cmurillo@multi.net.co) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:35 2005 Subject: Half-duplex VT420? In-Reply-To: <1177.682T2150T9565891optimus@canit.se> Message-ID: <3BB85F7D00000742@obregon.multi.net.co> Iggy wrote: >Carlos Murillo skrev: >>No, it shouldn't be that hot. Check the fans >and >>look for dustbunnies clogging the circulation. > >No, I haven't got any expansion box. It's all crammed into a 30?30?12 cm >box. An extra ethernet card is fit in the top slot. Nice! I wish I had a couple extra e-net cards; then I'd make my hp380 my firewall. >Fans? What fans? Is it supposed to have fans? >One thing I found particularly sympathetic about it was the fact that it >was >absolutely silent. The only thing which reveals that it's running is the >smell >of burning ICs. Uh 0h. There are two fans, one for the power supply, another for the card cage and they are essential. They are located in the front, where they suck air. Get them fixed before powering your machine again. I am amazed that the PS did not die after an hour. But then again, we were just saying that these machines are built like tanks... carlos. From Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de Tue Oct 9 11:19:42 2001 From: Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de (Hans Franke) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:35 2005 Subject: Spectrummania In-Reply-To: <20011006031937.15746.qmail@diablonet.net> Message-ID: <3BC33FBE.30357.240A4F4D@localhost> Maybe a date for all classic geeks who are in central Europe during early November. On the weekend Nov 9-11 the Spectrummania 2001 will take place in a suburb of Stuttgart. Please check http://www.sintech-shop.de/spectrumania.htm (A text only web page) Gruss H. -- VCF Europa 3.0 am 27./28. April 2002 in Muenchen http://www.vcfe.org/ From thompson at mail.athenet.net Tue Oct 9 12:33:52 2001 From: thompson at mail.athenet.net (Paul Thompson) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:35 2005 Subject: VMS, UCX, DHCP? In-Reply-To: <425.682T350T10164155optimus@canit.se> Message-ID: I think multinet supports DHCP. I am not familiar enough with TCPIP services for VMS (UCX), however. Multinet has a hobby program. On 9 Oct 2001, Iggy Drougge wrote: > Now that I've got "broadband", I'd like to see my VAXstation on the net. It's > running VMS 5.1 and UCX, but does it have any DHCP capabilities? > It's not a great problem, but if there is some option for getting config info > via DHCP, it'd save me the trouble of setting up a NetBSD environment in order > to run dhclient. =) > > -- > En ligne avec Thor 2.6a. > > Amiga 4000/040 25MHz/64MB/20GB RetinaBLTZ3/VLab/FastlaneZ3/Ariadne/Toccata > > -- From healyzh at aracnet.com Tue Oct 9 12:35:03 2001 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:35 2005 Subject: VMS, UCX, DHCP? In-Reply-To: <425.682T350T10164155optimus@canit.se> Message-ID: >Now that I've got "broadband", I'd like to see my VAXstation on the net. It's >running VMS 5.1 and UCX, but does it have any DHCP capabilities? >It's not a great problem, but if there is some option for getting config info >via DHCP, it'd save me the trouble of setting up a NetBSD environment in order >to run dhclient. =) If you were running the latest version of Compaq TCPIP, then I think you'd have the capability, however, VMS V5.1 doesn't support any of the modern TCPIP stacks (even Process Software's two stacks only support back to 5.5-2). Zane -- | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator | | healyzh@aracnet.com (primary) | OpenVMS Enthusiast | | | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | PDP-10 Emulation and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | From Diff at Mac.com Tue Oct 9 12:44:19 2001 From: Diff at Mac.com (Zach Malone) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:35 2005 Subject: Half-duplex VT420? References: <1177.682T2150T9565891optimus@canit.se> Message-ID: <003601c150ea$06f20c20$6401a8c0@laboffice> I also have a 30x30x12 enclosed 380, it has two 80mm (maybe even three) fans mounted in the front which blow air onto the boards, and out the grating in the back. If you are missing those, it could explain why you've been having problems. Zach ----- Original Message ----- From: "Iggy Drougge" To: "Carlos Murillo" Sent: Tuesday, October 09, 2001 10:56 AM Subject: Re: Half-duplex VT420? Carlos Murillo skrev: >At 05:15 AM 10/9/01 +0100, Iggy wrote: >>I really like the 380 too, but is it really supposed to run that hot? >After an >>hour or so, the case is so hot, it burns! >>I suspect the Topcat (6-bitplane) card to be the prime suspect. >No, it shouldn't be that hot. I have a topcat too plus 64MB, and everything >is crammed in a single-story enclosure (380's tend to be found in cases with >the expansion box), and it runs just warm to the touch. Check the fans and >look for dustbunnies clogging the circulation. No, I haven't got any expansion box. It's all crammed into a 30?30?12 cm box. An extra ethernet card is fit in the top slot. Fans? What fans? Is it supposed to have fans? One thing I found particularly sympathetic about it was the fact that it was absolutely silent. The only thing which reveals that it's running is the smell of burning ICs. -- En ligne avec Thor 2.6a. "Auf Sparc-Maschinen ist Linux weit weniger gut. Auf Maschinen mit sun4 Architektur ist NetBSD etwa 30% schneller. Wer auf so einer Maschine Linux faehrt tut es aus ideologischen Gruenden oder kennt nichts anderes." Aus: de.comp.os.unix.misc, "Was ist schneller?" From tarsi at binhost.com Tue Oct 9 12:50:01 2001 From: tarsi at binhost.com (Tarsi) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:35 2005 Subject: ArcNet and the Pursuit of Multiple Topologies Message-ID: <0110091250010B.04845@simon> Dear all, I've decided that one of my goals is to run every networking topology possible in my house, regardless if I actually NEED to run them or not. :) My plan is to place 1 linux box running a card from each topology in it and use that to bridge all (or almost all) topologies. I currently have running 10bT ethernet, 10b2 ethernet, Localtalk over PhoneNET and the beginnings of Arcnet. In light of such, I have a series of questions: 1) Who knows some stuff about ArcNet? I've gotten 4 cards (8-bit ISA) and a 16-port active hub. I've read somewhere that cards are either hubbable or not. Any other info on that? 2) Anyone have any (I think it is) 93ohm coax arcnet patch cables that they want to get rid of? 3) Anyone got good resources on ThickNET? (10b5 I think it is?) I know it was run back in the day, and I know some precursory things about it (the funky vampire taps, etc.) Anyone have either resources or hardware on this topology that they'd like to share/sell/etc? :) 4) Any other interesting topologies I should try? I have plans to do: Arcnet, FDDI, Token ring, Localtalk, 10b2, 10b5, 10bT, 10bTX, 10bFiber, and (eventually) 802.11b wireless. Thanks folks! Tarsi 210 -- ---------------------------------------------- Homepage: http://tarsi.binhost.com binHOST.com: http://www.binhost.com Forever Beyond: http://www.foreverbeyond.org ---------------------------------------------- From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Oct 9 12:31:44 2001 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:35 2005 Subject: Half-duplex VT420? In-Reply-To: <2518.682T200T2834185optimus@canit.se> from "Iggy Drougge" at Oct 9, 1 04:43:04 am Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1453 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20011009/cdcda5a0/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Oct 9 12:26:47 2001 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:35 2005 Subject: Squealing CRTs In-Reply-To: <2057.682T2000T2355165optimus@canit.se> from "Iggy Drougge" at Oct 9, 1 03:55:40 am Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 608 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20011009/4b745526/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Oct 9 12:16:04 2001 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:35 2005 Subject: ZX Spectrum internals (Was: ZX81 kits) In-Reply-To: <20011009022050.NBNY9785.imf11bis.bellsouth.net@thegoodw> from "Glen Goodwin" at Oct 8, 1 00:36:03 am Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 566 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20011009/6f77a930/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Oct 9 12:19:39 2001 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:35 2005 Subject: Half-duplex VT420? In-Reply-To: <859.682T100T743593optimus@canit.se> from "Iggy Drougge" at Oct 9, 1 01:14:02 am Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 904 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20011009/996c4f56/attachment.ksh From vance at ikickass.org Tue Oct 9 13:30:28 2001 From: vance at ikickass.org (Absurdly Obtuse) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:35 2005 Subject: ArcNet and the Pursuit of Multiple Topologies In-Reply-To: <0110091250010B.04845@simon> Message-ID: FDDI would definitely be a good one to do. It uses dual counter-rotating rings. How about ATM? HIPPI? CI? CHANNEL-CHANNEL? Peace... Sridhar On Tue, 9 Oct 2001, Tarsi wrote: > Dear all, > > I've decided that one of my goals is to run every networking topology > possible in my house, regardless if I actually NEED to run them or not. :) > > My plan is to place 1 linux box running a card from each topology in it and > use that to bridge all (or almost all) topologies. > > I currently have running 10bT ethernet, 10b2 ethernet, Localtalk over > PhoneNET and the beginnings of Arcnet. > > In light of such, I have a series of questions: > > 1) Who knows some stuff about ArcNet? I've gotten 4 cards (8-bit ISA) and a > 16-port active hub. I've read somewhere that cards are either hubbable or > not. Any other info on that? > > 2) Anyone have any (I think it is) 93ohm coax arcnet patch cables that they > want to get rid of? > > 3) Anyone got good resources on ThickNET? (10b5 I think it is?) I know it > was run back in the day, and I know some precursory things about it (the > funky vampire taps, etc.) Anyone have either resources or hardware on this > topology that they'd like to share/sell/etc? :) > > 4) Any other interesting topologies I should try? I have plans to do: > Arcnet, FDDI, Token ring, Localtalk, 10b2, 10b5, 10bT, 10bTX, 10bFiber, and > (eventually) 802.11b wireless. > > Thanks folks! > > Tarsi > 210 > > > -- > ---------------------------------------------- > Homepage: http://tarsi.binhost.com > binHOST.com: http://www.binhost.com > Forever Beyond: http://www.foreverbeyond.org > ---------------------------------------------- > From foo at siconic.com Tue Oct 9 13:51:44 2001 From: foo at siconic.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:35 2005 Subject: ArcNet and the Pursuit of Multiple Topologies In-Reply-To: <0110091250010B.04845@simon> Message-ID: On Tue, 9 Oct 2001, Tarsi wrote: > 4) Any other interesting topologies I should try? I have plans to > do: Arcnet, FDDI, Token ring, Localtalk, 10b2, 10b5, 10bT, 10bTX, > 10bFiber, and (eventually) 802.11b wireless. String and tin cans? Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org From edick at idcomm.com Tue Oct 9 14:00:06 2001 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:35 2005 Subject: OT: Has anybody used the "ABC" AVR Basic Controller? References: <859.682T100T743593optimus@canit.se> <15298.21226.650841.982801@phaduka.neurotica.com> <3.0.2.32.20011009074621.01077db8@obregon.multi.net.co> <3.0.6.32.20011009101758.007bc100@mailhost.intellistar.net> Message-ID: <002601c150f4$9c9c0f00$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> I've got plenty of information about the AVR, but this particular board, and original ABC "Maxi" board from Investment Technologies, an Autralian company. The problem is that their documentation, which they freely distribute, is in a poor state, either due to poor preparation and premature release, or poor maintenance, particularly in light of the fact they've released a revised version of the board with the PLCC rather tha DIP version of the AVR. The layout drawing has components missing, though it's clearly the right board verison, and the board has erroneous signal routing to the dedicated LCD module connector, and components reflected in the schematic that aren't on the board, etc. This is either an early version of the documentation that was overwritten on the web site when they put the new board's doc's out there, or it's an all-too-common piece of crappy work. I'm hoping to come across someone who can either (1) provide me with the "real" documentation, sans omissions, or (2) verify what a piece of %$#@! this really is. What appeals to me is that it has 4 optoisolated inputs and 4 mosfet outputs not to mention the LCD support, though it's screwed up. If this stuff I have is the released version of the doc's for this product, and I got the one I have at Radio Shack.com's rummage sale last summer, not from the normal retail channels, then I'm adequately warned off the notion of buying a couple of dozen of these for use in my work, handy or not. OTOH, if there is a good doc package, then I'd risk buying one of the current devices, since it has features I like, for use in rapid prototyping. The AVR is a fairly capble architecture, though still 8-bit in nature. I'd happily use it for the quickies, since this board is only about the size of a playing card. In short, the AVR doc's are not what I'm after. I'm after the specific released documentation for this particular model of this product. Thanks for the offer, Joe. regards, Dick ----- Original Message ----- From: "Joe" To: Sent: Tuesday, October 09, 2001 8:17 AM Subject: Re: OT: Has anybody used the "ABC" AVR Basic Controller? > Dick, > > I haven't worked with the AVR stuff but I have a book that goes into > good detail on them. It's the "Handbook of Microcontrollers" by Myke > Predko. I'll loan it to you if you need it. There are some resources on > the net that you might try, to join the List server send a message to > Atmel-request@pic.co.za with "JOIN" in the body. there are acouple of > related web sites at www.ipc.o.ca/people/kalle/atmel.html and > www.sistudio.com and www.dontronics.com. > > Joe > > > At 07:25 AM 10/9/01 -0600, you wrote: > >I recently acquired an AVR Basic Microcontroller "Maxi Board" which is an > >applicaton of the AVR 90S8535 MCU with a number of potentially useful > features. > >However, it's got the worst set of documents that I've ever seen published > for > >what should be a substantial product of its type. It has errors, it lacks > vital > >description elements, e.g. which CPU pin drives which connector pin, etc. > > > >They lon longer, however, make the board I have, and, as a result, I'm hoping > >that the "real" doc's have simply been replaced by the ones for their current > >model. I'm certainly not going to buy one of their current products if this > >one's doc is representative of what they produce. > > > >Any info directrly acquired from dealing with the board mfg's (Investment > >Technologies, in AU) that you can share would be appreciated. > > > >thanks, > > > >Dick > > > > > > > > From edick at idcomm.com Tue Oct 9 14:15:34 2001 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:35 2005 Subject: ArcNet and the Pursuit of Multiple Topologies References: Message-ID: <003301c150f6$c586b080$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> 100BTX is certainly cheap enough these days. A card for the PC was selling for $8 in Denver last week. Switching hubs cost about $35. Dick ----- Original Message ----- From: "Sellam Ismail" To: Sent: Tuesday, October 09, 2001 12:51 PM Subject: Re: ArcNet and the Pursuit of Multiple Topologies > On Tue, 9 Oct 2001, Tarsi wrote: > > > 4) Any other interesting topologies I should try? I have plans to > > do: Arcnet, FDDI, Token ring, Localtalk, 10b2, 10b5, 10bT, 10bTX, > > 10bFiber, and (eventually) 802.11b wireless. > > String and tin cans? > > Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ > International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org > > From DAW at yalepress3.unipress.yale.edu Tue Oct 9 14:24:59 2001 From: DAW at yalepress3.unipress.yale.edu (David Woyciesjes) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:35 2005 Subject: ArcNet and the Pursuit of Multiple Topologies Message-ID: <9011A52E011ED311B4280004AC1BA6150146714C@yalepress3.unipress.yale.edu> (reply at end...) ! On Tue, 9 Oct 2001, Tarsi wrote: ! > Dear all, ! > ! > I've decided that one of my goals is to run every ! > networking topology possible in my house, regardless ! > if I actually NEED to run them or not. :)... ..... ! > I currently have running 10bT ethernet, 10b2 ethernet, ! > Localtalk over PhoneNET and the beginnings of Arcnet. ! > ! > In light of such,... ..... ! > 4) Any other interesting topologies I should try? I have ! > plans to do: ! > Arcnet, FDDI, Token ring, Localtalk, 10b2, 10b5, 10bT, ! > 10bTX, 10bFiber, and (eventually) 802.11b wireless. ! > ! > Thanks folks! ! -----Original Message----- ! From: Absurdly Obtuse [mailto:vance@ikickass.org] ! ! FDDI would definitely be a good one to do. It uses dual ! counter-rotating rings. How about ATM? HIPPI? CI? ! CHANNEL-CHANNEL? ...And someone asked if _I_ was masochistic when I only asked about upgrading a 486! --- David A Woyciesjes --- C & IS Support Specialist --- Yale University Press --- mailto:david.woyciesjes@yale.edu --- (203) 432-0953 --- ICQ # - 905818 From mcguire at neurotica.com Tue Oct 9 14:25:44 2001 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:35 2005 Subject: ArcNet and the Pursuit of Multiple Topologies In-Reply-To: Re: ArcNet and the Pursuit of Multiple Topologies (Sellam Ismail) References: <0110091250010B.04845@simon> Message-ID: <15299.20280.840402.155015@phaduka.neurotica.com> On October 9, Sellam Ismail wrote: > > 4) Any other interesting topologies I should try? I have plans to > > do: Arcnet, FDDI, Token ring, Localtalk, 10b2, 10b5, 10bT, 10bTX, > > 10bFiber, and (eventually) 802.11b wireless. > > String and tin cans? IP over carrier pigeon!! -Dave -- Dave McGuire Laurel, MD From vance at ikickass.org Tue Oct 9 14:54:01 2001 From: vance at ikickass.org (Absurdly Obtuse) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:35 2005 Subject: ArcNet and the Pursuit of Multiple Topologies In-Reply-To: <15299.20280.840402.155015@phaduka.neurotica.com> Message-ID: On Tue, 9 Oct 2001, Dave McGuire wrote: > IP over carrier pigeon!! UUCP over floppies ferried by cars! BLEEEAAAAAARGH!! Peace... Sridhar From gwynp at artware.qc.ca Tue Oct 9 15:24:11 2001 From: gwynp at artware.qc.ca (gwynp@artware.qc.ca) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:35 2005 Subject: ArcNet and the Pursuit of Multiple Topologies In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On 09-Oct-2001 Absurdly Obtuse wrote: > On Tue, 9 Oct 2001, Dave McGuire wrote: > >> IP over carrier pigeon!! > > UUCP over floppies ferried by cars! BLEEEAAAAAARGH!! Bundles of punched cards by camel back over the Sahel. You might laugh, but that's how the phones in some parts of Mali are run. -Philip PS: Yes, my SO is currently in one of those regions. Yes, this does colour my view point. From Antonio.Carlini at riverstonenet.com Tue Oct 9 15:27:46 2001 From: Antonio.Carlini at riverstonenet.com (Carlini, Antonio) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:35 2005 Subject: VMS, UCX, DHCP? Message-ID: <3820E2042B6ED5118DC200D0B78EDC47066181@exc-reo1> > Paul Thompson wrote: >I think multinet supports DHCP. I am not familiar enough with TCPIP >services for VMS (UCX), however. Multinet has a hobby program. >On 9 Oct 2001, Iggy Drougge wrote: >> Now that I've got "broadband", I'd like to see my VAXstation on the net. It's >> running VMS 5.1 and UCX, but does it have any DHCP capabilities? >> It's not a great problem, but if there is some option for getting config info >> via DHCP, it'd save me the trouble of setting up a NetBSD environment in order >> to run dhclient. =) I believe that the latest UCX (TCPIP as it is now called) does support DHCP. The manuals should be around somewhere under http://www.openvms.compaq.com Antonio From healyzh at aracnet.com Tue Oct 9 15:36:06 2001 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:35 2005 Subject: ArcNet and the Pursuit of Multiple Topologies In-Reply-To: from "Absurdly Obtuse" at Oct 09, 2001 03:54:01 PM Message-ID: <200110092036.f99Ka7819320@shell1.aracnet.com> > On Tue, 9 Oct 2001, Dave McGuire wrote: > > > IP over carrier pigeon!! > > UUCP over floppies ferried by cars! BLEEEAAAAAARGH!! > > Peace... Sridhar Unless I'm mistaken Dave is talking about a transmittion method that's actually been used. There is actually an RFC for it. Zane From dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com Tue Oct 9 15:49:23 2001 From: dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com (Douglas Quebbeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:35 2005 Subject: ArcNet and the Pursuit of Multiple Topologies Message-ID: <7A9BACCEF0171D4FB77019F5104CDD372257B4@jeffserver.tegjeff.com> > In light of such, I have a series of questions: > > 1) Who knows some stuff about ArcNet? I've gotten 4 cards (8-bit ISA) and a > 16-port active hub. I've read somewhere that cards are either hubbable or > not. Any other info on that? I've never used an active hub before... and was thus limited to 4 nodes using my home-made passive hub. > 2) Anyone have any (I think it is) 93ohm coax arcnet patch cables that they > want to get rid of? I think you'll have trouble if you use anything other than 63 ohm coax... ... Formerly, the support for ARCNET in Linux was pretty week. However, there was an ARCNET/LINUX mailing list for a long time, and the members were keeping the driver sources up-to-date. The name of the list owner (or the guy cranking out the code) was, first name, Avery, last name, Pennimum or something unusal. hth, -doug quebbeman From mtapley at swri.edu Tue Oct 9 15:49:11 2001 From: mtapley at swri.edu (Mark Tapley) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:35 2005 Subject: Repair philosophy (was Re: IBM ROM BASIC or lack thereof) In-Reply-To: <200110091738.MAA95165@opal.tseinc.com> Message-ID: Among quite a bit of other wisdom, Tony wrote: >Heck, all I want are things like pinouts.... Ah, the pot 'o gold at the end of the rainbow! A skilled repairman, who works for pinouts.... :-) More seriously, while I aspire to fix things like Tony, I find that ignorance and lack of time are powerful disincentives. (The little one needs his diapers (nappies?) changed, and the bigger little one is gonna be going to college in about 10 years, so I gotta earn tuition, and then there's paying for the classic computer shed that the wife insists on filling with "nice furniture" and "decorating" because she thinks of it as a "house"....) I can swap modules. When I click the switch and nothing at all happens, and I have a new power supply on hand .... it's within my limited time and knowledge horizons to swap 'em. Getting an o-scope, learning how to use it, taking apart the power supply (and trusting that the little one won't ingest some of the nuts and washers while the medium-size one is getting a talking-to about sliding down the bannister with the power cord in tow).... well, that may be without my horizons. All this ranting leads to my question, to the group as a whole and Tony in particular: Is there a way I tell that it'll be safe to board-swap? In other words, are there symptoms I can in general use to tell me that the fault that caused damage was on the damaged (e.g.) board, and that therefore, if I have another example of that board, I won't fry it too by putting it into the place of the damaged one? - Mark From dtwright at uiuc.edu Tue Oct 9 15:53:03 2001 From: dtwright at uiuc.edu (Dan Wright) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:35 2005 Subject: ArcNet and the Pursuit of Multiple Topologies In-Reply-To: <15299.20280.840402.155015@phaduka.neurotica.com>; from mcguire@neurotica.com on Tue, Oct 09, 2001 at 03:25:44PM -0400 References: <0110091250010B.04845@simon> <15299.20280.840402.155015@phaduka.neurotica.com> Message-ID: <20011009155303.A1103267@uiuc.edu> Dave McGuire said: > On October 9, Sellam Ismail wrote: > > > 4) Any other interesting topologies I should try? I have plans to > > > do: Arcnet, FDDI, Token ring, Localtalk, 10b2, 10b5, 10bT, 10bTX, > > > 10bFiber, and (eventually) 802.11b wireless. > > > > String and tin cans? > > IP over carrier pigeon!! There's even an RFC for this: http://www.ietf.org/rfc/rfc1149.txt?number=1149 :) - Dan Wright (dtwright@uiuc.edu) (http://www.uiuc.edu/~dtwright) -] ------------------------------ [-] -------------------------------- [- ``Weave a circle round him thrice, / And close your eyes with holy dread, For he on honeydew hath fed, / and drunk the milk of Paradise.'' Samuel Taylor Coleridge, Kubla Khan -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 229 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20011009/9b3ac74e/attachment.bin From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Oct 9 16:11:08 2001 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:35 2005 Subject: Repair philosophy (was Re: IBM ROM BASIC or lack thereof) In-Reply-To: from "Mark Tapley" at Oct 9, 1 03:49:11 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 3138 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20011009/784f0df9/attachment.ksh From Antonio.Carlini at riverstonenet.com Tue Oct 9 16:25:14 2001 From: Antonio.Carlini at riverstonenet.com (Carlini, Antonio) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:35 2005 Subject: Squealing CRTs Message-ID: <3820E2042B6ED5118DC200D0B78EDC47066184@exc-reo1> > Chris [SMTP:mythtech@Mac.com] wrote: > >I wasn't that lucky... when I did it, I shorted a cap thru my finger >(fortuantly, just thru ONE finger, tip to knuckle). I was working blind You don't need HV - large currents can be nasty too. The PSUs in some of the VAX 6000/7000 platforms are only +5V but can dump 100s of amps. You probably don't want to short one of those with your ring finger! Now for real HV - I was told by an ex-electrical engineer - that he watched while someone was measuring up for a new HV cabinet with a tape measure. The usual metal sort you or I might use for DIY. He dropped it and shorted out the busbars, instantly melted the tape and ended up in hospital with major burns across his arms and chest. Having been hit a few times by mains (240V) voltage, I've learned to be more careful and switch stuff off! Antonio From vance at ikickass.org Tue Oct 9 16:44:54 2001 From: vance at ikickass.org (Absurdly Obtuse) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:35 2005 Subject: ArcNet and the Pursuit of Multiple Topologies In-Reply-To: <200110092036.f99Ka7819320@shell1.aracnet.com> Message-ID: On Tue, 9 Oct 2001, Zane H. Healy wrote: > > On Tue, 9 Oct 2001, Dave McGuire wrote: > > > > > IP over carrier pigeon!! > > > > UUCP over floppies ferried by cars! BLEEEAAAAAARGH!! > > > > Peace... Sridhar > > Unless I'm mistaken Dave is talking about a transmittion method that's > actually been used. There is actually an RFC for it. I know someone who measured the bandwidth and latency of himself carrying a backpack full of floppies across the campus of Clarkson. Peace... Sridhar From mcguire at neurotica.com Tue Oct 9 16:55:25 2001 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:35 2005 Subject: ArcNet and the Pursuit of Multiple Topologies In-Reply-To: Re: ArcNet and the Pursuit of Multiple Topologies (Absurdly Obtuse) References: <200110092036.f99Ka7819320@shell1.aracnet.com> Message-ID: <15299.29261.15385.201356@phaduka.neurotica.com> On October 9, Absurdly Obtuse wrote: > > Unless I'm mistaken Dave is talking about a transmittion method that's > > actually been used. There is actually an RFC for it. > > I know someone who measured the bandwidth and latency of himself carrying > a backpack full of floppies across the campus of Clarkson. This sounds like the age-old "never underestimate the bandwidth of a station wagon full of magtapes" story. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Laurel, MD From mcguire at neurotica.com Tue Oct 9 16:57:15 2001 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:35 2005 Subject: Repair philosophy (was Re: IBM ROM BASIC or lack thereof) In-Reply-To: Repair philosophy (was Re: IBM ROM BASIC or lack thereof) (Mark Tapley) References: <200110091738.MAA95165@opal.tseinc.com> Message-ID: <15299.29371.67862.438913@phaduka.neurotica.com> On October 9, Mark Tapley wrote: > going to college in about 10 years, so I gotta earn tuition, and then > there's paying for the classic computer shed that the wife insists on > filling with "nice furniture" and "decorating" because she thinks of it as > a "house"....) I added a decoration a while back. It's a VAX4000-700a. Gorgeous. Functional, too. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Laurel, MD From Antonio.Carlini at riverstonenet.com Tue Oct 9 17:00:29 2001 From: Antonio.Carlini at riverstonenet.com (Carlini, Antonio) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:35 2005 Subject: IBM ROM BASIC or lack thereof Message-ID: <3820E2042B6ED5118DC200D0B78EDC47066185@exc-reo1> ard@p850ug1.demon.co.uk wrote: >But seriously, the advantage of paper manuals is that you can read them >anywhere (like in bed, on the train, etc) , you can have them open on >your workbench (where there certainly isn't room for a PC in my case), >you can write notes all over them, etc. And I find them a lot easier to >read... All very true and I completely agree. I too generally prefer paper manuals. I would also hate to read a manual on-screen cover to cover (i.e. for anything other than reference). However, my space is restricted. I could have maybe 300 manuals within easy reach here. I have a wall-mounted CD rack with space for 300 CDs just feet away. >> >> I don't expect to read my manual on the Rainbow that I >> am repairing ... that's what the PC or laptop >Need any hints? I've got a fair idea as to what goes on inside the 'bow >(pinouts, theory, etc). Some of it is not obvious (like the disk >controller test which feeds the output of the serial chip in sync mode to >the read data pin of the FDC to check that the latter can decode data >correctly). I have the tech manuals but this is the PSU (second one which I've had die on me!) The first one turned out to be the bridge rectifier ... I found a suitable replacement and bingo it came back to life. Only a few weeks later I found somewhere that sold security bits online, one of which fits the Rainbow PSU - so at least this time I won't be sawing a slow in the screw to get at the thing! This time whatever died has taken out more of the downstream stuff. I've not had too much time to look at it - you don't happen to have the PSU schematics do you? ... I've got everything else (I think) except that. >I've never quite understood this... 20-30 years ago, most computers used >standard chips. And thus they could be copied (I am not talking about >legality here). But the schematics existed. Manuals explaining the >schematics existed. In DEC, I was told that they stopped supplying them when they noticed that customers did not want them any more (and obviously these things - especially technical manuals) cost mucho denaro to produce ... schematics must already exist obviously! This was when the customer base moved from being propeller-heads to suits. >Now we have ASICs which are much harder to copy, and yet the docs don't >exist... > >Anyway, any half-decent hacker can reverse-engineer most devices in a >couple of days at most.... The board for which I am currently scribbling software has a few standard, identifiable chips on it but the interconnections are mostly mediated by a few large FPGAs. There are also some custom ASICs in there too. The memory map is entirely decided by the FPGA. Adding and removing caps resistors and other SMT components is not too bad but playing with one of the 750-plus pin BGA devices is probably beyond the realm of the hobbyist (although re-work houses do exist, so who knows?) >> my current TV came with a five year guarantee and the >> previous one was a Decca series 80 chassis that was already >I probably have that schematic somewhere... I've got a lot of volumes of >Poole+Molloy (and its successors) on the shelf. For the record, it's a Philips 21PT5322 and the other one is a Fergusson T14R. (The latter is now out of guarantee and is therfore "fair game" ... ). Antonio From mythtech at Mac.com Tue Oct 9 17:03:08 2001 From: mythtech at Mac.com (Chris) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:35 2005 Subject: ArcNet and the Pursuit of Multiple Topologies Message-ID: <200110092203.RAA00470@opal.tseinc.com> >4) Any other interesting topologies I should try? I have plans to do: >Arcnet, FDDI, Token ring, Localtalk, 10b2, 10b5, 10bT, 10bTX, 10bFiber, and >(eventually) 802.11b wireless. If you decide to do TokenRing, and need some cards... let me know... I have 3 box loads of them up for grabs (just pay shipping). I have ISA, Microchannel, and I think I might have had a PCI in there somewhere. I already got rid of the EISA ones. Oh, and I might have an HP Jetdirect card for TokenRing. Sorry, I have no hubs (they used hubs of a sort right?) or cables. And you forgot to list on your list of topologies SneakerNet, unless you never run anything around your house by foot. -chris From ks at coastalnet.com Tue Oct 9 17:10:21 2001 From: ks at coastalnet.com (Robert Kirk Scott) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:35 2005 Subject: ArcNet and the Pursuit of Multiple Topologies References: <0110091250010B.04845@simon> Message-ID: <3BC375CD.B23@coastalnet.com> Tarsi wrote: > 1) Who knows some stuff about ArcNet? I've gotten 4 cards (8-bit ISA) and a > 16-port active hub. I've read somewhere that cards are either hubbable or > not. Any other info on that? I played around with ARCnet and enjoyed it immensely. The compnents are cheap and available and although it is slow, it is very forgiving. At one time I had an ethernet segment and an ARCnet segment with a Linux slackware box doing the routing between them! The ARCnet machines could access the internet through the Linux box! It was a hoot! As far as the cards cabling go some are star topology and some are linear topology and some have a jumper that enables you to switch between the two. The only caveat with the linear topology is that the ends have to be terminated. > > 2) Anyone have any (I think it is) 93ohm coax arcnet patch cables that they > want to get rid of? I found that regular old coax cable tv lines worked fine with the screw on bayonet fittings applied to the ends. > > 4) Any other interesting topologies I should try? I have plans to do: > Arcnet, FDDI, Token ring, Localtalk, 10b2, 10b5, 10bT, 10bTX, 10bFiber, and > (eventually) 802.11b wireless. The IBM PCLan looks interesting and sets of the adapters and the access unit (brand new) were available on Ebay not too long ago. By the way the Linux-Arcnet list is still there, if a little inactive, but they have a lot of information. Do a search on "Avery Pennarum" the author of the Linux driver. Practically everything you need to know is in the standard Linux kernels -- compile one with the ARCnet option enabled and then look for arcnet.txt This document even has jumper settings and specs for many of the common cards as well as instructions for routing and IP configuration. If you need an active hub to play with I might have one or two to spare. Also have some parallel port ARCnet adapters (alas only Netware drivers exist for these) which I never could get working. Also some microchannel ARCnet adapters. Contact me offlist if you need any of these. Kirk Scott ks@coastalnet.com From red at bears.org Tue Oct 9 17:18:52 2001 From: red at bears.org (r. 'bear' stricklin) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:35 2005 Subject: ArcNet and the Pursuit of Multiple Topologies In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Tue, 9 Oct 2001, Absurdly Obtuse wrote: > I know someone who measured the bandwidth and latency of himself carrying > a backpack full of floppies across the campus of Clarkson. Don't laugh... I worked at Amazon.com when they bought Alexa Internet in mid-1999. In order to transfer the Alexa data to Amazon.com facilities, a 747 was packed with DLTs and flown from San Francisco to Seattle. Quite simply it represented the solution with the greatest bandwidth (by far) for the dollar, where latency was not an issue. We actually received more than one shipment of tapes, for updates, until the Alexa collections were running fully out of the Amazon.com data facility. Now that I think of it, my current employer flew one of my co-workers halfway across the country with an IBM 3490 and a suitcase full of tapes to do the initial data replication for the pilot effort of our "business continuity" initiative. "Never underestimate the bandwidth of a Volvo full of tape." ok r. From dittman at dittman.net Tue Oct 9 17:31:36 2001 From: dittman at dittman.net (Eric Dittman) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:35 2005 Subject: Squealing CRTs In-Reply-To: from "Carlini, Antonio" at Oct 09, 2001 02:25:14 PM Message-ID: <200110092231.f99MVa420268@narnia.int.dittman.net> > Now for real HV - I was told by an ex-electrical > engineer - that he watched while someone > was measuring up for a new HV cabinet with > a tape measure. The usual metal sort you or I > might use for DIY. He dropped it and shorted > out the busbars, instantly melted the tape > and ended up in hospital with major burns > across his arms and chest. At a place I used to work we were setting up a new raised floor. The (licensed!) electrician that was setting up the new UPS was leaning with his hand against one end of the bank of batteries. He leaned down to tighten the nut on the other end of the bank of batteries with a metal socket wrench. The UPS was about the size of four large refrigerators side-by-side, 90% of which was filled with batteries. He nearly died and spent quite a long time in the hospital. The investigation kept the area closed for almost a week. -- Eric Dittman dittman@dittman.net Check out the DEC Enthusiasts Club at http://www.dittman.net/ From dittman at dittman.net Tue Oct 9 17:33:20 2001 From: dittman at dittman.net (Eric Dittman) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:35 2005 Subject: ArcNet and the Pursuit of Multiple Topologies In-Reply-To: from "Zane H. Healy" at Oct 09, 2001 01:36:06 PM Message-ID: <200110092233.f99MXKq20287@narnia.int.dittman.net> > > > IP over carrier pigeon!! > > > > UUCP over floppies ferried by cars! BLEEEAAAAAARGH!! > > > > Peace... Sridhar > > Unless I'm mistaken Dave is talking about a transmittion method that's > actually been used. There is actually an RFC for it. Haven't carrier pigeons been extinct long before IP and UUCP were developed? -- Eric Dittman dittman@dittman.net Check out the DEC Enthusiasts Club at http://www.dittman.net/ From red at bears.org Tue Oct 9 17:46:25 2001 From: red at bears.org (r. 'bear' stricklin) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:35 2005 Subject: ArcNet and the Pursuit of Multiple Topologies In-Reply-To: <200110092233.f99MXKq20287@narnia.int.dittman.net> Message-ID: On Tue, 9 Oct 2001, Eric Dittman wrote: > Haven't carrier pigeons been extinct long before IP and UUCP were > developed? Nope, people still use carrier pigeons. You're thinking of the Passenger Pigeon. The last one died in 1914. ok r. From optimus at canit.se Tue Oct 9 17:36:08 2001 From: optimus at canit.se (Iggy Drougge) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:35 2005 Subject: Half-duplex VT420? In-Reply-To: <3BB85F7D00000742@obregon.multi.net.co> Message-ID: <1840.682T400T14163721optimus@canit.se> cmurillo skrev: >Iggy wrote: >>Carlos Murillo skrev: >>>No, it shouldn't be that hot. Check the fans >>and >>>look for dustbunnies clogging the circulation. >> >>No, I haven't got any expansion box. It's all crammed into a 30?30?12 cm >>box. An extra ethernet card is fit in the top slot. >Nice! I wish I had a couple extra e-net cards; then I'd >make my hp380 my firewall. That's what I intend to do with it. It's so silent, after all. BTW, this M$ Nimda thing or whatever it is is really running rampart. I'm just surprised that my 1994 vintage port of NCSA httpd seems more inpermeable than that server software for which all those queer requests are intended. Are they that difficult to get hold of, though? There seems to always be some 9000/300 series stuff on eBay. This particular card seems older than the "motherboard"; I suppose this case has been upgraded from an earlier 300 series without built-in ethernet. In any case, the card is of the type with a card-edge connector. It plugs into a board with two such connectors, which in turn connects into the bus with a DIN connector. If one is creative with a hacksaw, it should be possible to fit two ethernet cards into that adapter backplane. >Uh 0h. There are two fans, one for the power supply, another >for the card cage and they are essential. They are located in >the front, where they suck air. Get them fixed before >powering your machine again. I am amazed that the PS did not >die after an hour. But then again, we were just saying that >these machines are built like tanks... I thought it was supposed to cool itself through creating some kind of airflow based on different pressures or something. =) -- En ligne avec Thor 2.6a. G? med i SUGA, Swedish Usergroup of Amiga! WWW: http://swedish.usergroup.amiga.tm/ BBS: 08-6582572, telnet://sua.ath.cx:42512 From optimus at canit.se Tue Oct 9 17:55:58 2001 From: optimus at canit.se (Iggy Drougge) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:35 2005 Subject: ArcNet and the Pursuit of Multiple Topologies In-Reply-To: <0110091250010B.04845@simon> Message-ID: <3578.682T2900T14357029optimus@canit.se> Tarsi skrev: >I've decided that one of my goals is to run every networking topology >possible in my house, regardless if I actually NEED to run them or not. :) A very admirable decision. >My plan is to place 1 linux box running a card from each topology in it and >use that to bridge all (or almost all) topologies. >I currently have running 10bT ethernet, 10b2 ethernet, Localtalk over >PhoneNET and the beginnings of Arcnet. >In light of such, I have a series of questions: >1) Who knows some stuff about ArcNet? I've gotten 4 cards (8-bit ISA) and a >16-port active hub. I've read somewhere that cards are either hubbable or >not. Any other info on that? It depends on the "hybrid" chip on the card. I'll just cut this from the Amiga 4000 hardware guide: ----8<------ The A2060 has some bugs. First, the "hybrid" chip that forms the electronic interface to the Arcnet network comes in two different versions: HCY 9058 (for bus networks) and HCY 9068 (for star networks). As the A2060 manual describes it, the board is for a bus network, but many A2060s come with the 9068 (star) hybrid installed. A bus network needs 93-ohm terminators at each end, and this works fine with the 9058 (bus) version of the hybrid. With the 9068, however, the hybrid itself performs the termination. To connect two machines with 9068 hybrids, run coax from one machine to the other, without using terminators. Using T-connectors to attach more machines in the middle of the bus may or may not work, due to each one adding its termination to the bus. To connect a 9068-version A2060 to a bus network of 9058-version A2060s, place it at the end of the chain and connect the cable directly, without a terminator (this may limit the network to only being operational when the 9068-equipped machine is on). Both versions of the card should have no problems when attached directly to an active hub. It is also possible to replace the HCY 9068 hybrid with the 9058 version, provided you can locate one. ------8<------ There are both active hubs, of which you've apparently got one, and passive hubs, which are just little boxes with a few (four on mine) BNCs on. BTW, I've got a funny ISA ethernet card which may be jumpered between several different impedance levels, so tha tit may be run off ARCnet cabling as well as ethernet and even video cabling, IIRC. >2) Anyone have any (I think it is) 93ohm coax arcnet patch cables that they >want to get rid of? Unfortunately none that I'd like to get rid of. But it shouldn't be impossible to buy cable at an electronics shop and crimp/solder yourself. >4) Any other interesting topologies I should try? I have plans to do: >Arcnet, FDDI, Token ring, Localtalk, 10b2, 10b5, 10bT, 10bTX, 10bFiber, and >(eventually) 802.11b wireless. Well, one person in SUGA has a thing called Amigalink, which is some really queer token-passing ring network. It uses D9 connectors at the back on the card, with cables going between D9 and a multi-segmented socket much like 6,3 mm earphone sockets. Those sockets plug into a box which in turn is part of the ring. The official name of the network was the "Superlink unidirectional buffer insertion ring netwrk", and there were adapters for CP/M, MSDOS and Amstrads, too. But this thing is really, really obscure. But I think you should run a piece of ECONET. I think that there is some inital support in NetBSD now thanks to the arm26 portsmaster, Ben Harris(?). -- En ligne avec Thor 2.6a. Vi m?ste vara r?dda om varandra - det ?r det enda reciproka pronomen vi har. From optimus at canit.se Tue Oct 9 18:23:08 2001 From: optimus at canit.se (Iggy Drougge) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:35 2005 Subject: Half-duplex VT420? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <1804.683T400T233577optimus@canit.se> Tony Duell skrev: >> from the terminal. So I tested it with my DECstation. No response there >> either. So I hooked it up to my Amiga. Typing at the keyboard, there was >> output in NComm, but doing the opposite didn't work at all. >I reat this as you can send from the terminal to the amiga, but not the >reverse. I'm sorry, I sent that message off before I'd finished it. But your interpretation is correct. I've also tested the cables. With the nullmodem I'm using right now, I get a whole line of reverse question marks when the HP does its double-beep to signal that it's entered the self- test sequence. It works fine when the Amiga's acting as a terminal, both ways. The VT seems to sense that there is communication going on, though, since whenever I press return, and the HP generates a new prompt, additional question marks are printed. >> So we have only one-way communication. What could be the problem? >Well, most setup faults (like enabling handshake lines) stop the terminal >from sending, not receiving, so we can discount those. >Most likely it's a hardware problem in the terminal. My first suspect >would be the RS232 receiver chip, which may have been damaged due to a >spike on the comms line. Open up the terminal and trace the receiver input >from the RS232 connector (pin 3 if it's a DB25 connector) to the chip. It >may be a 1489, it may be something more exotic (I don't have the prints). >Change it and see how you get on. Will do, as soon as it discharges. BTW, the VT420 service manual has recently been uploaded to http://www.vt100.net/, though it's a bunch of multi-page TIFFs, so I'm unsure what programs will support those. -- En ligne avec Thor 2.6a. Schont die Sockel, wenn ihr die Denkm?ler st?rzt. Sie k?nnten noch gebraucht werden. --- Stanislaw Jerzy Lec From pcw at mesanet.com Tue Oct 9 18:15:45 2001 From: pcw at mesanet.com (Peter C. Wallace) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:35 2005 Subject: ArcNet and the Pursuit of Multiple Topologies In-Reply-To: <200110092233.f99MXKq20287@narnia.int.dittman.net> Message-ID: On Tue, 9 Oct 2001, Eric Dittman wrote: > > > > IP over carrier pigeon!! > > > > > > UUCP over floppies ferried by cars! BLEEEAAAAAARGH!! > > > > > > Peace... Sridhar > > > > Unless I'm mistaken Dave is talking about a transmittion method that's > > actually been used. There is actually an RFC for it. > > Haven't carrier pigeons been extinct long before IP and UUCP were > developed? Nah, Its passenger pigeons taht are extinct... > -- > Eric Dittman > dittman@dittman.net > Check out the DEC Enthusiasts Club at http://www.dittman.net/ > Peter Wallace From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Tue Oct 9 18:13:32 2001 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (ajp166) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:36 2005 Subject: VMS, UCX, DHCP? Message-ID: <005801c15119$ff424550$64ed9a8d@ajp166> Simple solution, use a PC for it's best other use {first one is doorstop} and load up linux as a NAT box and put that in between cable and VAX. Then you can run the vax with static IP. Or better yet use a Microvax2000 and run netbsd so you dont have to have a PC in that spot. Allison -----Original Message----- From: Iggy Drougge To: Classic computing Date: Tuesday, October 09, 2001 11:39 AM Subject: VMS, UCX, DHCP? >Now that I've got "broadband", I'd like to see my VAXstation on the net. It's >running VMS 5.1 and UCX, but does it have any DHCP capabilities? >It's not a great problem, but if there is some option for getting config info >via DHCP, it'd save me the trouble of setting up a NetBSD environment in order >to run dhclient. =) > >-- >En ligne avec Thor 2.6a. > >Amiga 4000/040 25MHz/64MB/20GB RetinaBLTZ3/VLab/FastlaneZ3/Ariadne/Toccata > > From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Oct 9 18:37:11 2001 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:36 2005 Subject: Half-duplex VT420? In-Reply-To: <1804.683T400T233577optimus@canit.se> from "Iggy Drougge" at Oct 10, 1 00:23:08 am Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 955 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20011010/699c17a9/attachment.ksh From allain at panix.com Tue Oct 9 18:40:31 2001 From: allain at panix.com (John Allain) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:36 2005 Subject: ArcNet and the Pursuit of Multiple Topologies References: Message-ID: <003401c1511b$c9977e00$8a0101ac@ibm23xhr06> > a 747 was packed with DLTs and flown from > San Francisco to Seattle. Such a transport could easily easily exceed 1,024 TeraBytes. (forgot the Prefixname) What'd they need all that data for? John A. From cpg at aladdin.de Tue Oct 9 18:45:32 2001 From: cpg at aladdin.de (Christian Groessler) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:36 2005 Subject: classiccmp@classiccmp.org Message-ID: <87itdoqswz.fsf@gibbon.cnet.aladdin.de> On 10/09/2001 03:53:03 PM EST Dan Wright wrote: > >Dave McGuire said: >> >> IP over carrier pigeon!! > >There's even an RFC for this: > >http://www.ietf.org/rfc/rfc1149.txt?number=1149 And a proof-of-concept implementation has been done: http://www.blug.linux.no/rfc1149/ :-) :-) regards, chris From mcguire at neurotica.com Tue Oct 9 18:55:07 2001 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:36 2005 Subject: ArcNet and the Pursuit of Multiple Topologies In-Reply-To: Re: ArcNet and the Pursuit of Multiple Topologies (John Allain) References: <003401c1511b$c9977e00$8a0101ac@ibm23xhr06> Message-ID: <15299.36443.378484.984479@phaduka.neurotica.com> On October 9, John Allain wrote: > > a 747 was packed with DLTs and flown from > > San Francisco to Seattle. > > Such a transport could easily easily exceed 1,024 TeraBytes. > (forgot the Prefixname) What'd they need all that data for? PORN!! Ahem, sorry, I just couldn't resist. :) -Dave -- Dave McGuire Laurel, MD From dittman at dittman.net Tue Oct 9 19:08:15 2001 From: dittman at dittman.net (Eric Dittman) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:36 2005 Subject: ArcNet and the Pursuit of Multiple Topologiesu In-Reply-To: from "r. 'bear' stricklin" at Oct 09, 2001 06:46:25 PM Message-ID: <200110100008.f9A08Fn20613@narnia.int.dittman.net> > > Haven't carrier pigeons been extinct long before IP and UUCP were > > developed? > > Nope, people still use carrier pigeons. > > You're thinking of the Passenger Pigeon. The last one died in 1914. I get those mixed up. Thanks. -- Eric Dittman dittman@dittman.net Check out the DEC Enthusiasts Club at http://www.dittman.net/ From als at thangorodrim.de Tue Oct 9 19:11:45 2001 From: als at thangorodrim.de (Alexander Schreiber) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:36 2005 Subject: ArcNet and the Pursuit of Multiple Topologies In-Reply-To: <20011009155303.A1103267@uiuc.edu>; from dtwright@uiuc.edu on Tue, Oct 09, 2001 at 03:53:03PM -0500 References: <0110091250010B.04845@simon> <15299.20280.840402.155015@phaduka.neurotica.com> <20011009155303.A1103267@uiuc.edu> Message-ID: <20011010021145.A23593@frodo> On Tue, Oct 09, 2001 at 03:53:03PM -0500, Dan Wright wrote: > Dave McGuire said: > > On October 9, Sellam Ismail wrote: > > > > 4) Any other interesting topologies I should try? I have plans to > > > > do: Arcnet, FDDI, Token ring, Localtalk, 10b2, 10b5, 10bT, 10bTX, > > > > 10bFiber, and (eventually) 802.11b wireless. > > > > > > String and tin cans? > > > > IP over carrier pigeon!! > > There's even an RFC for this: > > http://www.ietf.org/rfc/rfc1149.txt?number=1149 Even better: It was actually implemented: http://www.blug.linux.no/rfc1149/ But the implementation of RFC 2549 (IP over Avian Carriers with Quality of Service) still remains to be done ... http://www.ietf.org/rfc/rfc2549.txt Regards, Alex. -- "So wird denn die GEMA nicht m?de, die globalisierungss?chtigen Verfechter absoluter Kommunikationsfreiheit und damit Ver?chter von Kultur und geistigem Eigentum immer wieder in die Schranken zu verweisen." *** GEMA-Pressezitat From dittman at dittman.net Tue Oct 9 19:14:43 2001 From: dittman at dittman.net (Eric Dittman) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:36 2005 Subject: VMS, UCX, DHCP? In-Reply-To: from "ajp166" at Oct 09, 2001 07:13:32 PM Message-ID: <200110100014.f9A0Ehj20623@narnia.int.dittman.net> > Simple solution, use a PC for it's best other use {first one is doorstop} > and load up linux as a NAT box and put that in between cable and VAX. > Then you can run the vax with static IP. Or better yet use a > Microvax2000 > and run netbsd so you dont have to have a PC in that spot. I actually prefer to use a little BookPC-format boxes running Linux Linux for my Internet gateway. The system is cheap, little, quiet, and doesn't get very hot. I can stick it behind my other systems. It has a large capacity IDE drive in it and I also use it for a mail and http server. -- Eric Dittman dittman@dittman.net Check out the DEC Enthusiasts Club at http://www.dittman.net/ From cisin at xenosoft.com Tue Oct 9 19:16:35 2001 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin (XenoSoft)) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:36 2005 Subject: ArcNet and the Pursuit of Multiple Topologies In-Reply-To: Message-ID: > On Tue, 9 Oct 2001, Dave McGuire wrote: > > IP over carrier pigeon!! On Tue, 9 Oct 2001, Absurdly Obtuse wrote: > UUCP over floppies ferried by cars! BLEEEAAAAAARGH!! OB_trivia: Correct attribution of the quote: "Never underestimate the bandwidth of a station wagon full of tapes going down the highway." From donm at cts.com Tue Oct 9 19:22:58 2001 From: donm at cts.com (Don Maslin) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:36 2005 Subject: ArcNet and the Pursuit of Multiple Topologies In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Tue, 9 Oct 2001, r. 'bear' stricklin wrote: > On Tue, 9 Oct 2001, Eric Dittman wrote: > > > Haven't carrier pigeons been extinct long before IP and UUCP were > > developed? > > Nope, people still use carrier pigeons. > > You're thinking of the Passenger Pigeon. The last one died in 1914. > > ok > r. > They must have been big suckers to carry passengers :) - don From zmerch at 30below.com Tue Oct 9 19:29:19 2001 From: zmerch at 30below.com (Roger Merchberger) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:36 2005 Subject: Slightly OT: What to do with a DEC 3000/300? In-Reply-To: <1804.683T400T233577optimus@canit.se> References: Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20011009195319.023dc8d8@mail.30below.com> I *think* these are slightly newer than the 10-year rule, but they're a rather "odd" machine, so I'll post anyway... I just purchased a "new" computer for my wife (Compaq 300Mhz PentiumII dual-processor server -- $50 USD - can't complain -- she needs to run office software now, so it'll be staroffice & linux)...... Anywho, I now have a "spare" DEC Model 3000/300, 150Mhz Alpha 21064 (or 66, can't remember now), 64Meg RAM, (2) 2-Gig DEC (barracuda) drives, 19" monitor, 2Meg framebuffer, TurboChannel slots, etc. etc. This machine will not (easily) run anything but Tru64 Unix or OpenVMS/Alpha... primarily due to it's TurboChannel architecture. My wife was using Tru64 Unix V.5.0 - it was easiest to set up, had Nutscrape preinstalled, and with my extensive Linux/Solaris background, made it a relative cakewalk to set up & maintain... but Emacs & sc *aren't* office software... I had installed OpenVMS/Alpha V7.2 on the machine, but I had problems with the dual-booting, due to boot flags that there was no way I could get my wife to remember... (She's a "click here", "mouse there" kinda person. She's not a geek, that's why she married *me*... ;-) so I deep-sixed the VMS install (which never did work outside of single-user mode) on that box. I've *wanted* to learn VMS, but my current VAX makes it difficult, mainly because it's "Beefed" to the max -- VaxStation 3100/m38, 32Meg RAM, 1Gig HD, VMS 7.1 (full distro - like 11 CD's) 2Meg 8-plane framebuffer & 17" monitor. I have successfully installed & hobby licensed VMS 7.1 on the machine - that's as far as I got, mainly due to that blasted 8-plane framebuffer. None of the text editors that I can find work right - they can't figure out how to run the terminal "text-mode"... so I can't modify the config files to try to get DECWindows running, which makes it impossible to read my dox, because they're only on CD-ROM -- it's a vicious cycle... :-( I also have a distro of Ultrix/VMS for that box, and had gotten that running well, but 1) was dog-slow, and 2) I don't really need YAUB (Yet Another Unix Box) -- I wanted VMS! Anyway, I've heard that 64Meg RAM was awfully tight to run VMS on an Alpha, but is it still faster than Tru64 Unix? (The machine was no screamer, but it was still faster than my wife... ;-) Or should I just sell it to someone willing to give it a good home? (I have too many computers now - and I'm trying to purchase a [smaller] house so may be moving soon... I *need* to consolidate my collection & am downsizing machines which I will never have time to tinker with...) Advice?? Ideas?? Thanks!! Roger "Merch" Merchberger From zmerch at 30below.com Tue Oct 9 19:37:27 2001 From: zmerch at 30below.com (Roger Merchberger) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:36 2005 Subject: ArcNet and the Pursuit of Multiple Topologies In-Reply-To: <003401c1511b$c9977e00$8a0101ac@ibm23xhr06> References: Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20011009203428.02718298@mail.30below.com> Rumor has it that John Allain may have mentioned these words: > > a 747 was packed with DLTs and flown from > > San Francisco to Seattle. > >Such a transport could easily easily exceed 1,024 TeraBytes. >(forgot the Prefixname) What'd they need all that data for? MMM... that'd be a Petabyte, IIRC. After that, would be an Exabyte, then a Yottabyte and then an Zetabyte And why? Probably to install Windows XP & Office XP (2002) from... ;-) Time to upgrade your hard drives again... Roger "Merch" Merchberger From cisin at xenosoft.com Tue Oct 9 19:39:50 2001 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin (XenoSoft)) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:36 2005 Subject: ArcNet and the Pursuit of Multiple Topologies In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Tue, 9 Oct 2001, Don Maslin wrote: > > You're thinking of the Passenger Pigeon. > They must have been big suckers to carry passengers :) I would think that a pigeon big enough to carry passengers would be likely to become extinct! From healyzh at aracnet.com Tue Oct 9 19:54:14 2001 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:36 2005 Subject: Slightly OT: What to do with a DEC 3000/300? In-Reply-To: from "Roger Merchberger" at Oct 09, 2001 08:29:19 PM Message-ID: <200110100054.f9A0sEW31672@shell1.aracnet.com> > Anyway, I've heard that 64Meg RAM was awfully tight to run VMS on an Alpha, > but is it still faster than Tru64 Unix? (The machine was no screamer, but > it was still faster than my wife... ;-) Or should I just sell it to someone > willing to give it a good home? (I have too many computers now - and I'm > trying to purchase a [smaller] house so may be moving soon... I *need* to > consolidate my collection & am downsizing machines which I will never have > time to tinker with...) If the DEC 3000/300 is anything like a DEC 3000/300LX then you should be able to get some 72-pin true parity SIMMs and upgrade your RAM. If you can get it up to a minimum of 112MB it should work great. If you can get it up to 96MB it will work OK. Less than 96MB, and it will work, but will probably do a fair amount of swaping. OpenVMS V7.2 won't even load if you've got less than 64MB RAM. It's definitly a good VMS box, so I say keep it, get some more RAM for it, and play with VMS on it. I used my DEC 3000/300LX as my OpenVMS server for a while with a BA350 chassis attached to it for disks. Zane From cisin at xenosoft.com Tue Oct 9 19:56:55 2001 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin (XenoSoft)) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:36 2005 Subject: ArcNet and the Pursuit of Multiple Topologies In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20011009203428.02718298@mail.30below.com> Message-ID: > > > a 747 was packed with DLTs and flown from > > > San Francisco to Seattle. > And why? Probably to install Windows XP & Office XP (2002) from... ;-) > Time to upgrade your hard drives again... Not fast enough (latency). Besides, I have it on good authority, that the minimal base configuration of XP can be done in less than 8 gigabytes. From rcini at optonline.net Tue Oct 9 20:01:43 2001 From: rcini at optonline.net (Richard A. Cini, Jr.) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:36 2005 Subject: 8073-based SBC info Message-ID: Hello, all: I just received a National Semiconductor SBC kit that's based on its 8070-series 8-bit processor. It's got a version of TinyBASIC written by National as an instrumentation and control language. I have a family data sheet and a short industry article but no programming or user's manual. The board is manufactured by Sterling. There is almost no information on this board available through the usual search engines. Any info appreciated. Thanks. Rich Rich Cini Collector of classic computers Build Master for the Altair32 Emulation Project Web site: http://highgate.comm.sfu.ca/~rcini/classiccmp/ /************************************************************/ From vance at ikickass.org Tue Oct 9 20:12:02 2001 From: vance at ikickass.org (Absurdly Obtuse) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:36 2005 Subject: ArcNet and the Pursuit of Multiple Topologies In-Reply-To: <15299.29261.15385.201356@phaduka.neurotica.com> Message-ID: On Tue, 9 Oct 2001, Dave McGuire wrote: > > > Unless I'm mistaken Dave is talking about a transmittion method that's > > > actually been used. There is actually an RFC for it. > > I know someone who measured the bandwidth and latency of himself carrying > > a backpack full of floppies across the campus of Clarkson. > This sounds like the age-old "never underestimate the bandwidth of a > station wagon full of magtapes" story. Indeed. Except this guy did it as part of his doctoral work. 8-) Peace... Sridhar From optimus at canit.se Tue Oct 9 21:13:33 2001 From: optimus at canit.se (Iggy Drougge) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:36 2005 Subject: VMS, UCX, DHCP? In-Reply-To: <005801c15119$ff424550$64ed9a8d@ajp166> Message-ID: <1070.683T1650T1934963optimus@canit.se> ajp166 skrev: >Simple solution, use a PC for it's best other use {first one is doorstop} >and load up linux as a NAT box and put that in between cable and VAX. >Then you can run the vax with static IP. Or better yet use a >Microvax2000 >and run netbsd so you dont have to have a PC in that spot. I've got the HP 9000/380 for that purpose, but since it turns out that my ISP is rather generous with its IP allocation, I though I might just as well get a real InterNet IP address instead of messing around with NAT configuration files. So in all actuality, it turns out that the 9000 might be useful for something else, just don't ask me what. Besides, the IPs here seem static enough, as long as you use DHCP to get one. So it's just a matter of a one-time boot of NetBSD/vax and running dhclient, or perhaps just faking the VAX's hardware address on some other box (I'm certain there is an environment variable for that somewhere here...). There are a lot of possibilities, but doing it the VMS way would have been preferable, of course. -- En ligne avec Thor 2.6a. From optimus at canit.se Tue Oct 9 21:06:34 2001 From: optimus at canit.se (Iggy Drougge) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:36 2005 Subject: Slightly OT: What to do with a DEC 3000/300? In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20011009195319.023dc8d8@mail.30below.com> Message-ID: <226.683T1700T1865733optimus@canit.se> Roger Merchberger skrev: >This machine will not (easily) run anything but Tru64 Unix or >OpenVMS/Alpha... primarily due to it's TurboChannel architecture. NetBSD has got TC and 3000/300 support. -- En ligne avec Thor 2.6a. From vance at ikickass.org Tue Oct 9 20:27:38 2001 From: vance at ikickass.org (Absurdly Obtuse) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:36 2005 Subject: ArcNet and the Pursuit of Multiple Topologies In-Reply-To: <20011010021145.A23593@frodo> Message-ID: On Wed, 10 Oct 2001, Alexander Schreiber wrote: > http://www.blug.linux.no/rfc1149/ This is tres cool. 8-) You can even replicate the experiment using their software. > But the implementation of RFC 2549 (IP over Avian Carriers with Quality > of Service) still remains to be done ... > > http://www.ietf.org/rfc/rfc2549.txt I can't wait! Peace... Sridhar From technos at nerdland.org Tue Oct 9 20:35:35 2001 From: technos at nerdland.org (Jim Tuck) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:36 2005 Subject: ArcNet and the Pursuit of Multiple Topologies Message-ID: <01C1510A.54B9A560.technos@nerdland.org> What about StarLan?? I think I have some full length 8-bit ISA StarLan cards in a closet if you want em.. No other equip tho.. Jim On Tuesday, October 09, 2001 1:50 PM, Tarsi [SMTP:tarsi@binhost.com] wrote: > Dear all, > > I've decided that one of my goals is to run every networking topology > possible in my house, regardless if I actually NEED to run them or not. :) > > My plan is to place 1 linux box running a card from each topology in it and > use that to bridge all (or almost all) topologies. > > I currently have running 10bT ethernet, 10b2 ethernet, Localtalk over > PhoneNET and the beginnings of Arcnet. > > In light of such, I have a series of questions: > > 1) Who knows some stuff about ArcNet? I've gotten 4 cards (8-bit ISA) and a > > 16-port active hub. I've read somewhere that cards are either hubbable or > not. Any other info on that? > > 2) Anyone have any (I think it is) 93ohm coax arcnet patch cables that they > want to get rid of? > > 3) Anyone got good resources on ThickNET? (10b5 I think it is?) I know it > was run back in the day, and I know some precursory things about it (the > funky vampire taps, etc.) Anyone have either resources or hardware on this > topology that they'd like to share/sell/etc? :) > > 4) Any other interesting topologies I should try? I have plans to do: > Arcnet, FDDI, Token ring, Localtalk, 10b2, 10b5, 10bT, 10bTX, 10bFiber, and > (eventually) 802.11b wireless. > > Thanks folks! > > Tarsi > 210 > > > -- > ---------------------------------------------- > Homepage: http://tarsi.binhost.com > binHOST.com: http://www.binhost.com > Forever Beyond: http://www.foreverbeyond.org > ---------------------------------------------- From zofeiming at prodigy.net Tue Oct 9 20:46:45 2001 From: zofeiming at prodigy.net (Jonny the robot) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:36 2005 Subject: Slightly OT: What to do with a DEC 3000/300? References: <5.1.0.14.2.20011009195319.023dc8d8@mail.30below.com> Message-ID: <000901c1512d$6c2f4560$0c18c540@mark2001mmrreww> Why not give it away? and anyone who wants it could pick it up? Mark From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Tue Oct 9 21:22:44 2001 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (ajp166) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:36 2005 Subject: 8073-based SBC info Message-ID: <009b01c15132$890c64b0$64ed9a8d@ajp166> It's NIBBLE Tinybasic, there was an old BYTE or KB Article on the earlier 8a500 version of same. _If_ I ever get to the bottom of my pile I have the manual for the National version of the SBC with the 8073 on it. Allison -----Original Message----- From: Richard A. Cini, Jr. To: ClassCompList Date: Tuesday, October 09, 2001 9:26 PM Subject: 8073-based SBC info Hello, all: I just received a National Semiconductor SBC kit that's based on its 8070-series 8-bit processor. It's got a version of TinyBASIC written by National as an instrumentation and control language. I have a family data sheet and a short industry article but no programming or user's manual. The board is manufactured by Sterling. There is almost no information on this board available through the usual search engines. Any info appreciated. Thanks. Rich Rich Cini Collector of classic computers Build Master for the Altair32 Emulation Project Web site: http://highgate.comm.sfu.ca/~rcini/classiccmp/ /************************************************************/ From dlinder at uiuc.edu Tue Oct 9 21:36:57 2001 From: dlinder at uiuc.edu (Dan Linder) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:36 2005 Subject: ArcNet and the Pursuit of Multiple Topologies In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Tue, 9 Oct 2001, Peter C. Wallace wrote: > > Haven't carrier pigeons been extinct long before IP and UUCP were > > developed? > > Nah, Its passenger pigeons taht are extinct... okay, I'll bite... what's the difference between a "carrier pigeon" and a "passenger pigeon"? - Dan Dan Linder / dlinder @ uiuc.edu Graduate Student, College of Engineering, Dept. of Computer Science - Dept. of Computer Science Teaching Assistant - DRES Computer Accessibility Researcher From technos at nerdland.org Tue Oct 9 22:07:30 2001 From: technos at nerdland.org (Jim Tuck) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:36 2005 Subject: New toy, some questions.. Message-ID: <01C15117.2C727200.technos@nerdland.org> For a birthday present, my girlfriend tracked down and bought me a Radio Shack PC-1 with cassette adapter (Both in orig boxes!). It compliments nicely the PC-2 and plotter I already have. After addition of four 1.35V zinc-air hearing aid batteries, it's humming along on my desk counting up by eights.. Does anyone still have software for this beastie? My other Q is converter programs. wav2bin (Sharp calc converter) supports it fine (its just a rebadged PC-1211) but the companion program bin2wav does not. Do other conversion programs exist? Are there any that run under *nixen? Any with source? I have tried contacting the fine folks at www.pocketmuseum.com, as they seem to be the author of the software mentioned already, to no avail (broken email addy). Jim From technos at nerdland.org Tue Oct 9 22:18:24 2001 From: technos at nerdland.org (Jim Tuck) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:36 2005 Subject: ArcNet and the Pursuit of Multiple Topologies Message-ID: <01C15118.B23B72F0.technos@nerdland.org> One is extinct, the other isn't. Jim On Tuesday, October 09, 2001 10:37 PM, Dan Linder [SMTP:dlinder@uiuc.edu] wrote: > On Tue, 9 Oct 2001, Peter C. Wallace wrote: > > > > Haven't carrier pigeons been extinct long before IP and UUCP were > > > developed? > > > > Nah, Its passenger pigeons taht are extinct... > > okay, I'll bite... what's the difference between a "carrier pigeon" and a > "passenger pigeon"? > > - Dan > > Dan Linder / dlinder @ uiuc.edu > Graduate Student, College of Engineering, Dept. of Computer Science > - Dept. of Computer Science Teaching Assistant > - DRES Computer Accessibility Researcher From vance at ikickass.org Tue Oct 9 22:17:30 2001 From: vance at ikickass.org (Absurdly Obtuse) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:36 2005 Subject: ArcNet and the Pursuit of Multiple Topologies In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Tue, 9 Oct 2001, Dan Linder wrote: > On Tue, 9 Oct 2001, Peter C. Wallace wrote: > > > > Haven't carrier pigeons been extinct long before IP and UUCP were > > > developed? > > > > Nah, Its passenger pigeons taht are extinct... > > okay, I'll bite... what's the difference between a "carrier pigeon" and a > "passenger pigeon"? Different species. Peace... Sridhar From acme_ent at bellsouth.net Tue Oct 9 22:19:41 2001 From: acme_ent at bellsouth.net (Glen Goodwin) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:36 2005 Subject: ZX Spectrum internals (Was: ZX81 kits) Message-ID: <20011010032127.ION799.imf15bis.bellsouth.net@thegoodw> > My primary moan is those serial ports on the QL. There are 2 of them, and > only one receiving cirucit. The Rx data lines from the 2 ports are > logically ORed together and fed to the receiver. You have to make sure > you external device obeys the handshake lines (no matter how slowly it > sends characters), something that some devices plain can't do. An > 'unbuffered' modem (i.e. just about any 300 baud modem) is a device that > has problems working with the QL. > > -tony A truly bogus design. Any idea why they did it that way? Glen 0/0 From cisin at xenosoft.com Tue Oct 9 22:40:36 2001 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin (XenoSoft)) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:36 2005 Subject: ArcNet and the Pursuit of Multiple Topologies In-Reply-To: <01C15118.B23B72F0.technos@nerdland.org> Message-ID: > One is extinct, the other isn't. Due to trying to carry passengers? From jpl15 at panix.com Tue Oct 9 23:18:19 2001 From: jpl15 at panix.com (John Lawson) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:36 2005 Subject: Bird Electronics Message-ID: The passenger pigeon modulates the carrier pigeon. (Although this certainly makes for messy packets.) Cheerz John From vance at ikickass.org Tue Oct 9 23:27:14 2001 From: vance at ikickass.org (One Without Reason) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:36 2005 Subject: NeXT users... Message-ID: I just discovered Window Maker. Installed it on my SGI Indigo2 Maximum IMPACT. Oh my god. It's like a dream. Running IRIX with the interface of NeXTstep. I love it. Time to install it on all my headed workstations. Peace... Sridhar From cmcmanis at mcmanis.com Tue Oct 9 23:32:13 2001 From: cmcmanis at mcmanis.com (Chuck McManis) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:36 2005 Subject: ArcNet and the Pursuit of Multiple Topologies In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <5.0.0.25.2.20011009213143.0286a0a0@209.185.79.193> Passenger pigeons carry people but Carrier Pigeons carry war planes :-) --Chuck At 09:36 PM 10/9/01 -0500, you wrote: >On Tue, 9 Oct 2001, Peter C. Wallace wrote: > > > > Haven't carrier pigeons been extinct long before IP and UUCP were > > > developed? > > > > Nah, Its passenger pigeons taht are extinct... > >okay, I'll bite... what's the difference between a "carrier pigeon" and a >"passenger pigeon"? > > - Dan > >Dan Linder / dlinder @ uiuc.edu >Graduate Student, College of Engineering, Dept. of Computer Science > - Dept. of Computer Science Teaching Assistant > - DRES Computer Accessibility Researcher From healyzh at aracnet.com Tue Oct 9 23:46:36 2001 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:36 2005 Subject: NeXT users... In-Reply-To: from "One Without Reason" at Oct 10, 2001 12:27:14 AM Message-ID: <200110100446.f9A4kaB07218@shell1.aracnet.com> > I just discovered Window Maker. Installed it on my SGI Indigo2 Maximum > IMPACT. Oh my god. It's like a dream. Running IRIX with the interface > of NeXTstep. I love it. Time to install it on all my headed > workstations. > > Peace... Sridhar If you look you should also be able to find icons that match the NeXTstep icons rather than what ships with WindowMaker. Also, I'm not sure how well it'll work with Irix, but you might want to have a look at GNUstep (I've never actually played with it, just looked at the web site). ane From red at bears.org Tue Oct 9 23:56:24 2001 From: red at bears.org (r. 'bear' stricklin) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:36 2005 Subject: NeXT users... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Wed, 10 Oct 2001, One Without Reason wrote: > I just discovered Window Maker. Installed it on my SGI Indigo2 Maximum > IMPACT. Oh my god. It's like a dream. Running IRIX with the interface > of NeXTstep. I love it. Time to install it on all my headed > workstations. You need to learn more about the user interface on the NeXT. (; Window Maker only LOOKS like the NeXT UI. It misses out on, for example, the whole concept of Services (which unfortunately so did Apple for MacOS X). There's a whole heck of a lot more to a user interface than what it looks like. Did I sound bitter at all, just then? I'm sorry. I'm not, I promise. (: ok r. From at258 at osfn.org Wed Oct 10 00:07:15 2001 From: at258 at osfn.org (Merle K. Peirce) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:36 2005 Subject: ArcNet and the Pursuit of Multiple Topologies In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Carrier pigeons haul freight. Passenger pigeons seat 24, 12 standees. On Tue, 9 Oct 2001, Dan Linder wrote: > On Tue, 9 Oct 2001, Peter C. Wallace wrote: > > > > Haven't carrier pigeons been extinct long before IP and UUCP were > > > developed? > > > > Nah, Its passenger pigeons taht are extinct... > > okay, I'll bite... what's the difference between a "carrier pigeon" and a > "passenger pigeon"? > > - Dan > > Dan Linder / dlinder @ uiuc.edu > Graduate Student, College of Engineering, Dept. of Computer Science > - Dept. of Computer Science Teaching Assistant > - DRES Computer Accessibility Researcher > > M. K. Peirce Rhode Island Computer Museum, Inc. Shady Lea, Rhode Island "Casta est quam nemo rogavit." - Ovid From technos at nerdland.org Wed Oct 10 00:33:13 2001 From: technos at nerdland.org (Jim Tuck) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:36 2005 Subject: NeXT users... Message-ID: <01C1512B.87C40A60.technos@nerdland.org> Another good one is Enlightenment.. It has some crazy deps, but it supposedly compiles and looks mad snazzy.. I've used it on Sun and Alpha (as well as a myriad of wintel) but never on SGI. Jim On Wednesday, October 10, 2001 12:27 AM, One Without Reason [SMTP:vance@ikickass.org] wrote: > > I just discovered Window Maker. Installed it on my SGI Indigo2 Maximum > IMPACT. Oh my god. It's like a dream. Running IRIX with the interface > of NeXTstep. I love it. Time to install it on all my headed > workstations. > > Peace... Sridhar From healyzh at aracnet.com Wed Oct 10 00:42:54 2001 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:36 2005 Subject: NeXT users... In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: >You need to learn more about the user interface on the NeXT. (; > >Window Maker only LOOKS like the NeXT UI. It misses out on, for example, >the whole concept of Services (which unfortunately so did Apple for MacOS >X). > >There's a whole heck of a lot more to a user interface than what it looks >like. > >Did I sound bitter at all, just then? I'm sorry. I'm not, I promise. (: > >ok >r. As a Mac User, and I'm bitter! I like the NeXT interface, and I love the Mac interface, what the (*&^ were they thinking/smoking when they came up with the Aqua interface?!?!?! Zane -- | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator | | healyzh@aracnet.com (primary) | OpenVMS Enthusiast | | | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | PDP-10 Emulation and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | From technos at nerdland.org Wed Oct 10 00:47:23 2001 From: technos at nerdland.org (Jim Tuck) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:36 2005 Subject: ArcNet and the Pursuit of Multiple Topologies Message-ID: <01C1512D.827C0AB0.technos@nerdland.org> Naw.. Passenger pigeons were good eatin'.. They were hunted to death. Jim On Tuesday, October 09, 2001 11:41 PM, Fred Cisin (XenoSoft) [SMTP:cisin@xenosoft.com] wrote: > > One is extinct, the other isn't. > > Due to trying to carry passengers? From gwynp at artware.qc.ca Wed Oct 10 01:20:27 2001 From: gwynp at artware.qc.ca (gwynp@artware.qc.ca) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:36 2005 Subject: IBM ROM BASIC or lack thereof In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On 06-Oct-2001 Tony Duell wrote: > An explanation for those who didn't get to see this rant last time we > had it. The letter afer the 'D' is the shell size. 'B' is the size of > the common 25 pin connector, 'E' is the size of the common 9 pin > connector. Therefore the PC/AT serial ports are DE9 connectors. hehehe. I knew DB9 is "wrong". However, no one I interact with beyond this list would know what a DE9 is... so I guess I haven't tried to remember the proper term. -Philip From pete at dunnington.u-net.com Tue Oct 9 18:58:23 2001 From: pete at dunnington.u-net.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:36 2005 Subject: ArcNet and the Pursuit of Multiple Topologies In-Reply-To: Tarsi "ArcNet and the Pursuit of Multiple Topologies" (Oct 9, 12:50) References: <0110091250010B.04845@simon> Message-ID: <10110100058.ZM8323@mindy.dunnington.u-net.com> On Oct 9, 12:50, Tarsi wrote: > I've decided that one of my goals is to run every networking topology > possible in my house, regardless if I actually NEED to run them or not. :) > 4) Any other interesting topologies I should try? I have plans to do: > Arcnet, FDDI, Token ring, Localtalk, 10b2, 10b5, 10bT, 10bTX, 10bFiber, and > (eventually) 802.11b wireless. ATM would be good, and although there's a lot of it around, you should be able to pick up a couple of routers fairly cheaply. Acorn Econet? There's Linux support for that too. How about the original DIX Ethernet? Try a web search for Aloha. Sinclair (Timex) machines like the Spectrum and QL used a proprietary network, but I think the only other company to ever use it was ICL. Do you count ADSL, ISDN, X.21, or just LAN stuff? 10base2, 10base5, 10baseF (and FOIRL), 10baseT, 100baseTX, 100baseT4, 100baseFX, 1000baseTX, 1000baseSX, 100baseLX and 1000baseCX are all closely related and you will find some excellent references at http://www.techfest.com/networking/lan.htm 10base2 and 10base5 are bus topologies using 50-ohm coax; 10baseF (and its predecessor FOIRL), 100baseFX, and 1000baseSX/LX are fibre technologies often used as point-to-point but can be used in star networks too; 10baseT, 100baseTX, and 100baseT4 use UTP and are normally used in star topologies. Before you get too carried away, you might want to think about the permutations of protocols, technologies, and topologies or you'll need a much larger house :-) The same fibre that carries FOIRL can (if it's the right size, 50/125) carry 10baseF, 100baseFX, 1000baseSX, ATM, FDDI, ... I have a thin Ethernet (10base2) segment, a thick Ethernet (10base5) segment, a lot of Cat5e carrying 10baseT and some 100baseTX, a chunk of FDDI, some FOIRL, 10baseF, and potentially 100baseFX, at home; and there's lots of redundant ATM kit at work but (a) I have no room, and (b) I'd have to buy it (which is against my religion). I also have some Econet, ISDN, UUCP serial links, etc. -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager University of York From pete at dunnington.u-net.com Tue Oct 9 18:29:12 2001 From: pete at dunnington.u-net.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:36 2005 Subject: ArcNet and the Pursuit of Multiple Topologies In-Reply-To: Eric Dittman "Re: ArcNet and the Pursuit of Multiple Topologies" (Oct 9, 17:33) References: <200110092233.f99MXKq20287@narnia.int.dittman.net> Message-ID: <10110100029.ZM8314@mindy.dunnington.u-net.com> On Oct 9, 17:33, Eric Dittman wrote: > > > > IP over carrier pigeon!! > > > > > > UUCP over floppies ferried by cars! BLEEEAAAAAARGH!! > > > > > > Peace... Sridhar > > > > Unless I'm mistaken Dave is talking about a transmittion method that's > > actually been used. There is actually an RFC for it. > > Haven't carrier pigeons been extinct long before IP and UUCP were > developed? Nope. The RFC exists (RFC 1149) and there has been a practical implementation. See http://www.blug.linux.no/rfc1149/ vegard@gyversalen:~$ ping -i 900 10.0.3.1 PING 10.0.3.1 (10.0.3.1): 56 data bytes 64 bytes from 10.0.3.1: icmp_seq=0 ttl=255 time=6165731.1 ms 64 bytes from 10.0.3.1: icmp_seq=4 ttl=255 time=3211900.8 ms 64 bytes from 10.0.3.1: icmp_seq=2 ttl=255 time=5124922.8 ms 64 bytes from 10.0.3.1: icmp_seq=1 ttl=255 time=6388671.9 ms --- 10.0.3.1 ping statistics --- 9 packets transmitted, 4 packets received, 55% packet loss round-trip min/avg/max = 3211900.8/5222806.6/6388671.9 ms vegard@gyversalen:~$ -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager University of York From Huw.Davies at kerberos.davies.net.au Wed Oct 10 02:09:59 2001 From: Huw.Davies at kerberos.davies.net.au (Huw Davies) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:36 2005 Subject: IBM ROM BASIC or lack thereof In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4.3.2.7.2.20011010170843.00b9b9c8@kerberos.davies.net.au> At 02:20 AM 10/10/2001 -0400, gwynp@artware.qc.ca wrote: >hehehe. I knew DB9 is "wrong". However, no one I interact with beyond >this list would know what a DE9 is... so I guess I haven't tried to >remember the proper term. Well I've learnt something! I always refer to those connectors as DB9's. I guess I can practice one-upmanship and refer to them as DE9's in future! Huw Davies | e-mail: Huw.Davies@kerberos.davies.net.au | "If God had wanted soccer played in the | air, the sky would be painted green" From dpeschel at eskimo.com Wed Oct 10 02:19:56 2001 From: dpeschel at eskimo.com (Derek Peschel) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:36 2005 Subject: ArcNet and the Pursuit of Multiple Topologies In-Reply-To: <10110100029.ZM8314@mindy.dunnington.u-net.com>; from pete@dunnington.u-net.com on Tue, Oct 09, 2001 at 11:29:12PM +0000 References: <200110092233.f99MXKq20287@narnia.int.dittman.net> <10110100029.ZM8314@mindy.dunnington.u-net.com> Message-ID: <20011010001956.A29980@eskimo.eskimo.com> On Tue, Oct 09, 2001 at 11:29:12PM +0000, Pete Turnbull wrote: > On Oct 9, 17:33, Eric Dittman wrote: > > > > > IP over carrier pigeon!! > > > > > > > > UUCP over floppies ferried by cars! BLEEEAAAAAARGH!! > > > > > > > > Peace... Sridhar > > > > > > Unless I'm mistaken Dave is talking about a transmittion method that's > > > actually been used. There is actually an RFC for it. > > > > Haven't carrier pigeons been extinct long before IP and UUCP were > > developed? > > Nope. The RFC exists (RFC 1149) and there has been a practical > implementation. See http://www.blug.linux.no/rfc1149/ For a moment I wondered if the Web site was set up using the same protocol (as a proof of concept?) but luckily it's just a normal Web site. :) -- Derek From jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de Wed Oct 10 02:57:51 2001 From: jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de (jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:36 2005 Subject: Slightly OT: What to do with a DEC 3000/300? In-Reply-To: <226.683T1700T1865733optimus@canit.se> Message-ID: <200110100757.JAA14509@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> On 10 Oct, Iggy Drougge wrote: >>This machine will not (easily) run anything but Tru64 Unix or >>OpenVMS/Alpha... primarily due to it's TurboChannel architecture. > NetBSD has got TC and 3000/300 support. Yes. Even X11 on the PMAGB-B aka HX aka SFB framebuffer is supported. I will get a 3000/600 today. It will be used as NAT router / firewall. (I have an extra TC Ethernet card :-) ) So ask me in a vew days how it works. ;-) And you can run Netcrap - ahhh - Netscape for Tru64 on it. Somwhere on ftp.digital.com / ftp.dec.com is a "Tru64 Netscape for Linux" that comes with the needed shard libs to run. But get more RAM. At least 96MB or better 128MB. I have a Alphastation 200 (166MHz 21064) with 128MB runing NetBSD 1.5. I use it for Netscaping and I LaTeXed a big part of my diploma thesis on hat machine. -- tsch??, Jochen Homepage: http://www.unixag-kl.fh-kl.de/~jkunz/ From mikeford at socal.rr.com Wed Oct 10 03:46:14 2001 From: mikeford at socal.rr.com (Mike Ford) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:36 2005 Subject: 2.88 MB floppy drive, scsi? In-Reply-To: References: <0110091250010B.04845@simon> Message-ID: I've been looking for some 2.88 non-IBM PS/2 floppy drives, and I found some, but the guy says they are SCSI. Is that nuts or what? TEAC FD-235 J 5670-U W/SCSI Card TEAC FD-235 J 5670-U W/SCSI Card TEAC FD-235 J 610 W/SCSI Card Some of the HP/Apollo 725/50 computers I found recently had SCSI floppies, but it looked like the SCSI part might be detachable. I wonder if I should bother getting the above drives to work in a PC, which I would have to fuss around adding SCSI to? From telefonk at mail.bme.hu Wed Oct 10 04:19:03 2001 From: telefonk at mail.bme.hu (=?iso-8859-2?Q?Telefonsz=E1mla?=) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:36 2005 Subject: emulex uc13/14 Message-ID: <000701c1516c$9de605a0$487a4298@gmf.bme.hu> My name is Mihaly Fazekas. My english is not good. My question: where can i find info/manual/sheet from Emulex UC13/14 Unibus SCSI controller? From technos at nerdland.org Wed Oct 10 04:37:33 2001 From: technos at nerdland.org (Jim Tuck) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:36 2005 Subject: 2.88 MB floppy drive, scsi? Message-ID: <01C1514D.A9C55CA0.technos@nerdland.org> Non-IBM, PS/2 floppy drives?? Isn't that an oxymoron? What about the Mitsubishi drives made for IBM? Jim (Isn't misuse of grammar fun?) On Wednesday, October 10, 2001 4:46 AM, Mike Ford [SMTP:mikeford@socal.rr.com] wrote: > I've been looking for some 2.88 non-IBM PS/2 floppy drives, and I found > some, but the guy says they are SCSI. Is that nuts or what? > > TEAC FD-235 J 5670-U W/SCSI Card > TEAC FD-235 J 5670-U W/SCSI Card > TEAC FD-235 J 610 W/SCSI Card > > Some of the HP/Apollo 725/50 computers I found recently had SCSI floppies, > but it looked like the SCSI part might be detachable. I wonder if I should > bother getting the above drives to work in a PC, which I would have to fuss > around adding SCSI to? > From hellige at mediacen.navy.mil Tue Oct 9 02:22:44 2001 From: hellige at mediacen.navy.mil (Jeff Hellige) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:36 2005 Subject: 2.88 MB floppy drive, scsi? References: <0110091250010B.04845@simon> Message-ID: <01Oct10.083925edt.119198@gateway.mediacen.navy.mil> There were some external floppy drives for the NeXT machines that used the SCSI bus. Jeff From rhblakeman at kih.net Wed Oct 10 08:00:47 2001 From: rhblakeman at kih.net (Russ Blakeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:36 2005 Subject: 2.88 MB floppy drive, scsi? In-Reply-To: <01C1514D.A9C55CA0.technos@nerdland.org> Message-ID: It may be that they are hooked to a SCSI controller, many have floppy controllers on the SCSI board. Only ones I've ever heard of, including the PS/2 drives, are MFM like any other. LS-120 drives are IDE but they really don't qualify in the same sense. -> -----Original Message----- -> From: owner-classiccmp@classiccmp.org -> [mailto:owner-classiccmp@classiccmp.org]On Behalf Of Jim Tuck -> Sent: Wednesday, October 10, 2001 4:38 AM -> To: 'classiccmp@classiccmp.org' -> Subject: RE: 2.88 MB floppy drive, scsi? -> -> -> Non-IBM, PS/2 floppy drives?? Isn't that an oxymoron? -> -> What about the Mitsubishi drives made for IBM? -> -> Jim -> -> (Isn't misuse of grammar fun?) -> -> On Wednesday, October 10, 2001 4:46 AM, Mike Ford -> [SMTP:mikeford@socal.rr.com] -> wrote: -> > I've been looking for some 2.88 non-IBM PS/2 floppy drives, and I found -> > some, but the guy says they are SCSI. Is that nuts or what? -> > -> > TEAC FD-235 J 5670-U W/SCSI Card -> > TEAC FD-235 J 5670-U W/SCSI Card -> > TEAC FD-235 J 610 W/SCSI Card -> > -> > Some of the HP/Apollo 725/50 computers I found recently had -> SCSI floppies, -> > but it looked like the SCSI part might be detachable. I wonder -> if I should -> > bother getting the above drives to work in a PC, which I would -> have to fuss -> > around adding SCSI to? -> > -> -> From cmurillo at emtelsa.multi.net.co Wed Oct 10 07:10:08 2001 From: cmurillo at emtelsa.multi.net.co (Carlos Murillo) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:36 2005 Subject: Half-duplex VT420? In-Reply-To: <1840.682T400T14163721optimus@canit.se> References: <3BB85F7D00000742@obregon.multi.net.co> Message-ID: <3.0.2.32.20011010081008.01cc70e8@obregon.multi.net.co> At 11:36 PM 10/9/01 +0100, Iggy wrote: >cmurillo skrev: >>Nice! I wish I had a couple extra e-net cards; then I'd >>make my hp380 my firewall. > >That's what I intend to do with it. It's so silent, after all. >Are they that difficult to get hold of, though? There seems to always be some >9000/300 series stuff on eBay. This particular card seems older than the >"motherboard"; I suppose this case has been upgraded from an earlier 300 >series without built-in ethernet. In any case, the card is of the type with a >card-edge connector. It plugs into a board with two such connectors, which in >turn connects into the bus with a DIN connector. >If one is creative with a hacksaw, it should be possible to fit two ethernet >cards into that adapter backplane. I have never seen individual ethernet cards for the 300 series; the LAN interface was always part of the "human interface" module that has hpib, serial, audio, lan and HIL connectors (and SCSI in the 380). But I am sure that they exist. What is the model number on your lan card? carlos. -------------------------------------------------------------- Carlos E. Murillo-Sanchez carlos_murillo@nospammers.ieee.org From cmurillo at emtelsa.multi.net.co Wed Oct 10 07:03:09 2001 From: cmurillo at emtelsa.multi.net.co (Carlos Murillo) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:36 2005 Subject: Squealing CRTs In-Reply-To: <200110092231.f99MVa420268@narnia.int.dittman.net> References: Message-ID: <3.0.2.32.20011010080309.01cc6148@obregon.multi.net.co> Lead acid batteries can make spectacular short circuits. I used to advise a group of students working on an HEV. The battery voltage was 360V, I believe. A student managed to short the terminals of the output of the main alternator rectifier (connected directly to the battery) with some pliers. The pliers fused at the joint and part of them was missing entirely (vaporized?). The student had a couple of (minor) burns where molten iron^H^H^H^H metal fell on him. It could have been worse; fortunately, there were fuses that did blow. carlos. At 05:31 PM 10/9/01 -0500, you wrote: >At a place I used to work we were setting up a new raised floor. >The (licensed!) electrician that was setting up the new UPS was >leaning with his hand against one end of the bank of batteries. - >He nearly died and spent quite a long time in the hospital. The >investigation kept the area closed for almost a week. >-- >Eric Dittman -------------------------------------------------------------- Carlos E. Murillo-Sanchez carlos_murillo@nospammers.ieee.org From cmurillo at emtelsa.multi.net.co Wed Oct 10 06:44:35 2001 From: cmurillo at emtelsa.multi.net.co (Carlos Murillo) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:37 2005 Subject: Half-duplex VT420? In-Reply-To: References: <2518.682T200T2834185optimus@canit.se> Message-ID: <3.0.2.32.20011010074435.01cc4dd8@obregon.multi.net.co> One odd failure that I had in a pc-compatible mainboard originally manifested itself as a non-functioning mouse. The mouse worked elsewhere. I said "toasted serial driver or receiver" and then I swapped the serial card (no Tony, no individual 1488's or 1489's to replace here; it was one of those integrated functions card). Still not working. Eventually I traced the fault to a broken -12V trace feeding all of the slots; the NiCd battery had begun spilling (though that was hard to see until I desoldered the battery) and that trace was the first to go... a little precision soldering and v`oila, problem fixed. By the way, I normally use vinegar and a toothbrush for cleaning NiCd messes, followed by rinsing with lots of water (water is not too hard here), some gentle shaking to shed off excess water and finally placing the board on top of one of the older monitors (gentle heat). When I suspect that there are crevices where a lot of water is hiding I use some isopropyl alcohol before drying. The vinegar seems to do a good job of eating the NiCd spill and corrosion. What do other people on the list use? At 06:31 PM 10/9/01 +0100, you wrote: >Hmmm.. It is likely that the CTS signal uses another section of the same >line receive chip that is used for RxD. I wonder if that chip is zapped.... > >> But if I have a toasted line driver, wouldn't that strike both inbound and >> outbound data? > >Not normally. There are combined driver and receiver chips (driver == >output from terminal, receiver == input to terminal), some of which even >include voltage multiplication circuity to produce the +/-12V (or so) >voltages needed for an RS232 interface from the +5V line. But a lot of >devices, particularly mains-powered ones, use separater drivers (like the >1488) and receivers (like the 1489). > > >-tony > > -------------------------------------------------------------- Carlos E. Murillo-Sanchez carlos_murillo@nospammers.ieee.org From ghldbrd at ccp.com Wed Oct 10 08:26:44 2001 From: ghldbrd at ccp.com (Gary Hildebrand) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:37 2005 Subject: 2.88 MB floppy drive, scsi? References: <0110091250010B.04845@simon> Message-ID: <3BC44C94.3C5B9CF4@ccp.com> Mike Ford wrote: > > I've been looking for some 2.88 non-IBM PS/2 floppy drives, and I found > some, but the guy says they are SCSI. Is that nuts or what? > > TEAC FD-235 J 5670-U W/SCSI Card > TEAC FD-235 J 5670-U W/SCSI Card > TEAC FD-235 J 610 W/SCSI Card > > Some of the HP/Apollo 725/50 computers I found recently had SCSI floppies, > but it looked like the SCSI part might be detachable. I wonder if I should > bother getting the above drives to work in a PC, which I would have to fuss > around adding SCSI to? What's the fuss about adding SCSI . . . In my world I consider that a necessity Gary Hildebrand St. Joseph, MO From jhellige at earthlink.net Wed Oct 10 08:54:04 2001 From: jhellige at earthlink.net (Jeff Hellige) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:37 2005 Subject: 2.88 MB floppy drive, scsi? In-Reply-To: <3BC44C94.3C5B9CF4@ccp.com> References: <0110091250010B.04845@simon> <3BC44C94.3C5B9CF4@ccp.com> Message-ID: <01Oct10.100351edt.119046@gateway.mediacen.navy.mil> >What's the fuss about adding SCSI . . . In my world I consider that a >necessity I agree, as any machine I spend any kind of time with generally has it or has it added, whether Mac, PC, Amiga or whatever. Even my laptop and PS/2 portable have SCSI adapters installed. There are those that dislike fooling with the SCSI 'voodoo' though. It can be a pain at times. Jeff -- Home of the TRS-80 Model 2000 FAQ File http://www.cchaven.com http://www.geocities.com/siliconvalley/lakes/6757 From Simon.Hardy at hemel-hempstead.sema.slb.com Wed Oct 10 08:57:50 2001 From: Simon.Hardy at hemel-hempstead.sema.slb.com (HARDY, Simon) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:37 2005 Subject: Research Machines Information Message-ID: <579AC59C515DD211B38B00A0C9B22928B79DBD@HEMESC.sema.co.uk> Hi, I am looking for any information or resources relating to the UK based Research Machines 380Z and 480Z products. These were Z80 based micros, mainly used in UK schools during the mid-eighties. I have a 480Z in my collection, but it isn't 100% operational and I really need service information to enable me to track the faulty component.....Can anybody help with any information about these machines, so far all I have are a few collector/museum web sites.. Now I've asked my question, a little about myself. I am based in the UK and am interested in collecting 8 and 16 bit microcomputers from the late 1970s through to late 1980s. I have managed a reasonable collection of hardware and software and am in the process of cleaning/restoring the hardware and then preserving the software. Regards Simon Hardy ___________________________________________________________________________ This email is confidential and intended solely for the use of the individual to whom it is addressed. Any views or opinions presented are solely those of the author and do not necessarily represent those of SchlumbergerSema. If you are not the intended recipient, be advised that you have received this email in error and that any use, dissemination, forwarding, printing, or copying of this email is strictly prohibited. If you have received this email in error please notify the SchlumbergerSema Helpdesk by telephone on +44 (0) 121 627 5600. ___________________________________________________________________________ From zmerch at 30below.com Wed Oct 10 08:58:44 2001 From: zmerch at 30below.com (Roger Merchberger) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:37 2005 Subject: ArcNet and the Pursuit of Multiple Topologies In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20011010095813.02915ed8@mail.30below.com> Rumor has it that Fred Cisin (XenoSoft) may have mentioned these words: >On Tue, 9 Oct 2001, Don Maslin wrote: > > > You're thinking of the Passenger Pigeon. > > They must have been big suckers to carry passengers :) > >I would think that a pigeon big enough to carry passengers would be likely >to become extinct! Yea, but that'd be a *big* pigeon-roast!!! ;-) Roger "Merch" Merchberger From optimus at canit.se Wed Oct 10 09:40:24 2001 From: optimus at canit.se (Iggy Drougge) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:37 2005 Subject: NeXT users... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <429.683T1200T9405021optimus@canit.se> Zane H. Healy skrev: >As a Mac User, and I'm bitter! I like the NeXT interface, and I love the >Mac interface, what the (*&^ were they thinking/smoking when they came up >with the Aqua interface?!?!?! Jobs: "Since people like our tooth paste design on the hardware side, they must love it in software, too!" -- En ligne avec Thor 2.6a. Was ist ein Erwachsener? Ein Kind, das vom Alter aufgepumpt ist. --- Simone de Beauvoir From optimus at canit.se Wed Oct 10 09:41:49 2001 From: optimus at canit.se (Iggy Drougge) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:37 2005 Subject: IBM ROM BASIC or lack thereof In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.2.20011010170843.00b9b9c8@kerberos.davies.net.au> Message-ID: <553.683T2450T9415743optimus@canit.se> Huw Davies skrev: >At 02:20 AM 10/10/2001 -0400, gwynp@artware.qc.ca wrote: >>hehehe. I knew DB9 is "wrong". However, no one I interact with beyond >>this list would know what a DE9 is... so I guess I haven't tried to >>remember the proper term. >Well I've learnt something! I always refer to those connectors as DB9's. I >guess I can practice one-upmanship and refer to them as DE9's in future! I just call them D9s, that way I'm not referring to anything else or non- existant, though not being absolutely precise. -- En ligne avec Thor 2.6a. From optimus at canit.se Wed Oct 10 09:45:09 2001 From: optimus at canit.se (Iggy Drougge) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:37 2005 Subject: ArcNet and the Pursuit of Multiple Topologies In-Reply-To: <10110100058.ZM8323@mindy.dunnington.u-net.com> Message-ID: <1550.683T450T9453635optimus@canit.se> Pete Turnbull skrev: >On Oct 9, 12:50, Tarsi wrote: >> I've decided that one of my goals is to run every networking topology >> possible in my house, regardless if I actually NEED to run them or not. >:) >> 4) Any other interesting topologies I should try? I have plans to do: >> Arcnet, FDDI, Token ring, Localtalk, 10b2, 10b5, 10bT, 10bTX, 10bFiber, >and >> (eventually) 802.11b wireless. >ATM would be good, and although there's a lot of it around, you should be >able to pick up a couple of routers fairly cheaply. >Acorn Econet? There's Linux support for that too. >How about the original DIX Ethernet? Try a web search for Aloha. Was DIX really the original Ethernet? Wasn't that 10 Mbps and all? >Sinclair (Timex) machines like the Spectrum and QL used a proprietary >network, but I think the only other company to ever use it was ICL. LUXNET or ABCNET for Luxor machines? I mentioned Amigalink yesterday, but there is another Amigalink which uses 10b2 cabling on a bus with transceivers which connect to the Amiga diskdrive port. More info is available at http://www.amitrix.com/. -- En ligne avec Thor 2.6a. "LART is an acronym for Luser Attitude Readjustment Tool, and is generally a piece of heavy hard material such as a cricket or baseball bat, hunk of pipe, or 2x4 for the fine tuning of a luser's atitude. This is a noun that can be used as a verb. If I say I lart someone, I mean that I am performing delicate tuning procedures upon that persons head utilizing a LART. An ICBM would be considered an agressive LART." From optimus at canit.se Wed Oct 10 09:47:13 2001 From: optimus at canit.se (Iggy Drougge) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:37 2005 Subject: 2.88 MB floppy drive, scsi? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <1092.683T650T9474051optimus@canit.se> Mike Ford skrev: >I've been looking for some 2.88 non-IBM PS/2 floppy drives, and I found >some, but the guy says they are SCSI. Is that nuts or what? >TEAC FD-235 J 5670-U W/SCSI Card >TEAC FD-235 J 5670-U W/SCSI Card >TEAC FD-235 J 610 W/SCSI Card >Some of the HP/Apollo 725/50 computers I found recently had SCSI floppies, >but it looked like the SCSI part might be detachable. I wonder if I should >bother getting the above drives to work in a PC, which I would have to fuss >around adding SCSI to? It's quite possible to adapt PS/2 floppies to the common PC interface. A friend of mine converted them for Amiga use, and the difference between the Amiga and PC interfaces are negligible. Since PS/2 floppies are a lot more common than SCSI ones, I'd say you'd better slaughter some PS/2s. -- En ligne avec Thor 2.6a. "Auf Sparc-Maschinen ist Linux weit weniger gut. Auf Maschinen mit sun4 Architektur ist NetBSD etwa 30% schneller. Wer auf so einer Maschine Linux faehrt tut es aus ideologischen Gruenden oder kennt nichts anderes." Aus: de.comp.os.unix.misc, "Was ist schneller?" From optimus at canit.se Wed Oct 10 09:48:32 2001 From: optimus at canit.se (Iggy Drougge) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:37 2005 Subject: ArcNet and the Pursuit of Multiple Topologies In-Reply-To: <20011010001956.A29980@eskimo.eskimo.com> Message-ID: <587.683T1600T9485029optimus@canit.se> Derek Peschel skrev: >On Tue, Oct 09, 2001 at 11:29:12PM +0000, Pete Turnbull wrote: >> >> Nope. The RFC exists (RFC 1149) and there has been a practical >> implementation. See http://www.blug.linux.no/rfc1149/ >For a moment I wondered if the Web site was set up using the same protocol >(as a proof of concept?) but luckily it's just a normal Web site. :) Well, there should be high latency, but the packet sizes should be quite good. =) -- En ligne avec Thor 2.6a. Goto: A programming tool that exists to allow structured programmers to complain about unstructured programmers. From dtwright at uiuc.edu Wed Oct 10 09:15:20 2001 From: dtwright at uiuc.edu (Dan Wright) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:37 2005 Subject: NeXT users... In-Reply-To: <01C1512B.87C40A60.technos@nerdland.org>; from technos@nerdland.org on Wed, Oct 10, 2001 at 01:33:13AM -0400 References: <01C1512B.87C40A60.technos@nerdland.org> Message-ID: <20011010091520.C1198540@uiuc.edu> I have compiled (and successfully used!) enlightenment on the folloing machines: Sun sparc (solaris 2.6/7/8) IBM RS/6000 (AIX 4.3.2) HP9000/735 (HP-UX 10.20) PCs (linux & BSDs) SGI Origin200 (IRIX 6.5; compiled for n32 & o32 targets -- I can run it on O2, Indy, Indigo2, Octane...these are at work :) with many of these you have to start with compiling X11R6 in order to have non-broken libraries... I've decided that It's Not A Real Computer Until I Make It Run Enlightenment (TM) :) Jim Tuck said: > Another good one is Enlightenment.. It has some crazy deps, but it supposedly > compiles > and looks mad snazzy.. I've used it on Sun and Alpha (as well as a myriad of > wintel) but > never on SGI. > > Jim > > On Wednesday, October 10, 2001 12:27 AM, One Without Reason > [SMTP:vance@ikickass.org] wrote: > > > > I just discovered Window Maker. Installed it on my SGI Indigo2 Maximum > > IMPACT. Oh my god. It's like a dream. Running IRIX with the interface > > of NeXTstep. I love it. Time to install it on all my headed > > workstations. > > > > Peace... Sridhar - Dan Wright (dtwright@uiuc.edu) (http://www.uiuc.edu/~dtwright) -] ------------------------------ [-] -------------------------------- [- ``Weave a circle round him thrice, / And close your eyes with holy dread, For he on honeydew hath fed, / and drunk the milk of Paradise.'' Samuel Taylor Coleridge, Kubla Khan -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 229 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20011010/ad351a14/attachment.bin From jhellige at earthlink.net Wed Oct 10 09:19:03 2001 From: jhellige at earthlink.net (Jeff Hellige) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:37 2005 Subject: slightly OT but may of interest to OS/2 users... In-Reply-To: <3BC44C94.3C5B9CF4@ccp.com> References: <0110091250010B.04845@simon> <3BC44C94.3C5B9CF4@ccp.com> Message-ID: <01Oct10.102850edt.119114@gateway.mediacen.navy.mil> Here's a Connectix press release from yesterday stating that they are working on an OS/2 version of Virtual PC so that OS/2 users could run both OS/2 and Windows on the same machine concurrently: http://www.connectix.com/company/press_vpc4w_100901.html -- Home of the TRS-80 Model 2000 FAQ File http://www.cchaven.com http://www.geocities.com/siliconvalley/lakes/6757 From mcguire at neurotica.com Wed Oct 10 09:26:21 2001 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:37 2005 Subject: ArcNet and the Pursuit of Multiple Topologies In-Reply-To: Re: ArcNet and the Pursuit of Multiple Topologies (Iggy Drougge) References: <10110100058.ZM8323@mindy.dunnington.u-net.com> <1550.683T450T9453635optimus@canit.se> Message-ID: <15300.23181.335332.244122@phaduka.neurotica.com> On October 10, Iggy Drougge wrote: > >How about the original DIX Ethernet? Try a web search for Aloha. > > Was DIX really the original Ethernet? Wasn't that 10 Mbps and all? I believe the original Ethernet was 3Mbps. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Laurel, MD From mcguire at neurotica.com Wed Oct 10 09:27:04 2001 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:37 2005 Subject: ArcNet and the Pursuit of Multiple Topologies In-Reply-To: Re: ArcNet and the Pursuit of Multiple Topologies (Pete Turnbull) References: <0110091250010B.04845@simon> <10110100058.ZM8323@mindy.dunnington.u-net.com> Message-ID: <15300.23224.275936.322427@phaduka.neurotica.com> On October 9, Pete Turnbull wrote: > much larger house :-) The same fibre that carries FOIRL can (if it's the > right size, 50/125) carry 10baseF, 100baseFX, 1000baseSX, ATM, FDDI, ... FDDI generally uses 62.5/125 fiber. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Laurel, MD From optimus at canit.se Wed Oct 10 10:22:22 2001 From: optimus at canit.se (Iggy Drougge) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:37 2005 Subject: Half-duplex VT420? In-Reply-To: <3.0.2.32.20011010081008.01cc70e8@obregon.multi.net.co> Message-ID: <624.683T1100T9824677optimus@canit.se> Carlos Murillo skrev: >I have never seen individual ethernet cards for the 300 series; >the LAN interface was always part of the "human interface" module >that has hpib, serial, audio, lan and HIL connectors (and SCSI in the 380). >But I am sure that they exist. What is the model number on your >lan card? Blimey, why is it so dark in here? 98643 is the number. There are some pages scanned in from the installation guide on one of FatMac site, I think. Anyway, it doesn't have to be for the 300 series, I suppose. It uses the same kind of card-edge interface found on the 200 series cards. -- En ligne avec Thor 2.6a. From optimus at canit.se Wed Oct 10 10:23:43 2001 From: optimus at canit.se (Iggy Drougge) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:37 2005 Subject: 2.88 MB floppy drive, scsi? In-Reply-To: <3BC44C94.3C5B9CF4@ccp.com> Message-ID: <293.683T2150T9835427optimus@canit.se> Gary Hildebrand skrev: >What's the fuss about adding SCSI . . . In my world I consider that a >necessity Then you haven't added it to PCs. =) PS/2s which are built with SCSI in mind seem to behave well, but adding it to IDE motherboards seldom works out for me. -- En ligne avec Thor 2.6a. From mythtech at Mac.com Wed Oct 10 09:50:06 2001 From: mythtech at Mac.com (Chris) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:37 2005 Subject: 2.88 MB floppy drive, scsi? Message-ID: >There >are those that dislike fooling with the SCSI 'voodoo' though. Once you get the dance steps down, and realize that you have to sacrifice a lamb, not a chicken... the SCSI gods stop causing problems. :-) -chris From pechter at bg-tc-ppp1516.monmouth.com Wed Oct 10 09:51:15 2001 From: pechter at bg-tc-ppp1516.monmouth.com (Bill Pechter) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:37 2005 Subject: ArcNet and the Pursuit of Multiple Topologies In-Reply-To: from Dan Linder at "Oct 9, 2001 09:36:57 pm" Message-ID: <200110101451.f9AEpFh12690@bg-tc-ppp1516.monmouth.com> > On Tue, 9 Oct 2001, Peter C. Wallace wrote: > > > > Haven't carrier pigeons been extinct long before IP and UUCP were > > > developed? > > > > Nah, Its passenger pigeons taht are extinct... > > okay, I'll bite... what's the difference between a "carrier pigeon" and a > "passenger pigeon"? > > - Dan > > Dan Linder / dlinder @ uiuc.edu > Graduate Student, College of Engineering, Dept. of Computer Science > - Dept. of Computer Science Teaching Assistant > Baud rate and trellis encoding. Bill -- d|i|g|i|t|a|l had it THEN. Don't you wish you could still buy it now! bpechter@shell.monmouth.com|pechter@pechter.dyndns.org From zmerch at 30below.com Wed Oct 10 10:13:45 2001 From: zmerch at 30below.com (Roger Merchberger) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:37 2005 Subject: Slightly OT: What to do with a DEC 3000/300? In-Reply-To: <200110100054.f9A0sEW31672@shell1.aracnet.com> References: Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20011010100930.027c6080@mail.30below.com> Rumor has it that Zane H. Healy may have mentioned these words: >If the DEC 3000/300 is anything like a DEC 3000/300LX then you should be >able to get some 72-pin true parity SIMMs and upgrade your RAM. If you can >get it up to a minimum of 112MB it should work great. If you can get it up >to 96MB it will work OK. Less than 96MB, and it will work, but will >probably do a fair amount of swaping. OpenVMS V7.2 won't even load if >you've got less than 64MB RAM. The best price I found for that was around $29.00 per 32Meg stick - Thatsalotsacash for an "old" machine (but better than the $69 that most companies want)... and Jonny the robot may have mentioned these words: >Why not give it away? and anyone who wants it could pick it up? >Mark Why should I give away a computer I paid $225 for only one year ago (and was worth it then...) ?? Besides, where I live there's not that many "classic computer connoisseurs" around who could make use of this machine -- prolly 20% of the classic computers in a 20 mile radius of my house are *in* my house... My TI-99/4A computers I'll give away -- My Timex Sinclair 1000 w/16K ram upgrade I'll give away... If nothing else, I can use the 2Gig hard drives on my VAXen - I plan on keeping those (they stack well... ;-) And also, Iggy Drougge may have mentioned these words: >Roger Merchberger skrev: > > >This machine will not (easily) run anything but Tru64 Unix or > >OpenVMS/Alpha... primarily due to it's TurboChannel architecture. > >NetBSD has got TC and 3000/300 support. From the NetBSD page: =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-= Known Bugs for the DEC 3000/300 port Note that not all of the drivers have been thoroughly tested. Since no frame buffer or keyboard is supported on DEC 3000/300-family systems, you MUST use a serial console when running NetBSD/alpha on them. See your owner's manual for information on how to configure your system to use a serial console. =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-= That would make the 19" monitor pretty near useless, and if I really wanna text-mode login for a weird, proprietary box, I can just telnet into my TiVo, thanks... ;-) Would VMS/Alpha swap more or less than Tru64 on this box w/64Meg? (There was a *lot* of swap...) - I may keep the box for VMS to serve as a "document server" so I can view my VMS documentation on CD - I've heard DECWindows sets up very easily on the VMS/Alpha, but it's rather a pain on the VAX (without dox, anyway...) Hopefully, maybe then I'll be able to get past first base with VMS... Thanks, Roger "Merch" Merchberger From rigdonj at intellistar.net Wed Oct 10 10:33:01 2001 From: rigdonj at intellistar.net (Joe) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:37 2005 Subject: ADA 1600 for Pet? Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20011010113301.0079e1f0@mailhost.intellistar.net> I recently picked up a box called a "ADA 1600 Pet Printer Interface". It's a box slightly larger than a pack of cigarettes with two cables attached to it. One cable has a Centronics type connector on it and the other has a small circuit board with both a male and female 24 position card edge connectors on it. Is anyone familar with it or does anyone know which model PET it's for? Joe From uban at ubanproductions.com Wed Oct 10 10:24:02 2001 From: uban at ubanproductions.com (Tom Uban) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:37 2005 Subject: ArcNet and the Pursuit of Multiple Topologies In-Reply-To: <15300.23181.335332.244122@phaduka.neurotica.com> References: <10110100058.ZM8323@mindy.dunnington.u-net.com> <1550.683T450T9453635optimus@canit.se> Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.20011010102402.007bb100@ubanproductions.com> Hmm, looking at my copy of: "The Ethernet, A Local Area Network, Data Link Layer and Physical Layer Specifications", from Digital, Intel, and Xerox, September 30, 1980 -- the specification says: "Data rate: 10 Million bits/sec" --tom At 10:26 AM 10/10/01 -0400, you wrote: >On October 10, Iggy Drougge wrote: >> >How about the original DIX Ethernet? Try a web search for Aloha. >> >> Was DIX really the original Ethernet? Wasn't that 10 Mbps and all? > > I believe the original Ethernet was 3Mbps. > > -Dave > >-- >Dave McGuire >Laurel, MD > > From vance at ikickass.org Wed Oct 10 11:03:07 2001 From: vance at ikickass.org (One Without Reason) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:37 2005 Subject: ArcNet and the Pursuit of Multiple Topologies In-Reply-To: <3.0.5.32.20011010102402.007bb100@ubanproductions.com> Message-ID: I don't know if it went to standard, but there definitely was 3Mbps ether. I have a CHANNEL-3Mbps card for an S/370 here. Peace... Sridhar On Wed, 10 Oct 2001, Tom Uban wrote: > Hmm, looking at my copy of: "The Ethernet, A Local Area Network, > Data Link Layer and Physical Layer Specifications", from Digital, > Intel, and Xerox, September 30, 1980 -- the specification says: > "Data rate: 10 Million bits/sec" > > --tom > > At 10:26 AM 10/10/01 -0400, you wrote: > >On October 10, Iggy Drougge wrote: > >> >How about the original DIX Ethernet? Try a web search for Aloha. > >> > >> Was DIX really the original Ethernet? Wasn't that 10 Mbps and all? > > > > I believe the original Ethernet was 3Mbps. > > > > -Dave > > > >-- > >Dave McGuire > >Laurel, MD > > > > > From SUPRDAVE at aol.com Wed Oct 10 11:26:35 2001 From: SUPRDAVE at aol.com (SUPRDAVE@aol.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:37 2005 Subject: slightly OT but may of interest to OS/2 users... Message-ID: <69.1c32499d.28f5d0bb@aol.com> In a message dated 10/10/2001 9:31:42 AM Central Daylight Time, jhellige@earthlink.net writes: << Here's a Connectix press release from yesterday stating that they are working on an OS/2 version of Virtual PC so that OS/2 users could run both OS/2 and Windows on the same machine concurrently: >> Excellent! I'm glad to see that a real OS finally still gets recognition. Networking OS/2 to windows platforms at www.nothingtodo.org/easyos2.htm Time to send them a thankyou email... From dittman at dittman.net Wed Oct 10 12:01:32 2001 From: dittman at dittman.net (Eric Dittman) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:37 2005 Subject: 2.88 MB floppy drive, scsi? In-Reply-To: <293.683T2150T9835427optimus@canit.se> from "Iggy Drougge" at Oct 10, 2001 04:23:43 PM Message-ID: <200110101701.f9AH1WL22839@narnia.int.dittman.net> > >What's the fuss about adding SCSI . . . In my world I consider that a > >necessity > > Then you haven't added it to PCs. =) > PS/2s which are built with SCSI in mind seem to behave well, but adding it to > IDE motherboards seldom works out for me. I've never had much of a problem adding SCSI to my x86 systems. -- Eric Dittman dittman@dittman.net Check out the DEC Enthusiasts Club at http://www.dittman.net/ From dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com Wed Oct 10 12:26:17 2001 From: dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com (Douglas Quebbeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:37 2005 Subject: ArcNet and the Pursuit of Multiple Topologies Message-ID: <7A9BACCEF0171D4FB77019F5104CDD372257BD@jeffserver.tegjeff.com> > > At 10:26 AM 10/10/01 -0400, you wrote: > > >On October 10, Iggy Drougge wrote: > > >> >How about the original DIX Ethernet? Try a web search for Aloha. > > >> > > >> Was DIX really the original Ethernet? Wasn't that 10 Mbps and all? > > > > > > I believe the original Ethernet was 3Mbps. > > > > > > -Dave > On Wed, 10 Oct 2001, Tom Uban wrote: > > > Hmm, looking at my copy of: "The Ethernet, A Local Area Network, > > Data Link Layer and Physical Layer Specifications", from Digital, > > Intel, and Xerox, September 30, 1980 -- the specification says: > > "Data rate: 10 Million bits/sec" > > I don't know if it went to standard, but there definitely was 3Mbps > ether. I have a CHANNEL-3Mbps card for an S/370 here. You're right, Dave & Sridhar... from: http://www.baylor.edu/~Sharon_P_Johnson/etg/ethernethistory.htm 1972-The first experimental Ethernet system, Alto Aloha Network, was developed by Metcalfe and his Xerox PARC colleagues. It was designed to interconnect the Xerox Alto, a personal workstation with a graphical user interface, and linked Altos to one another, and to servers and laser printers. The data transmission rate was 2.94 Mbps [Spurgeon]. Regards, -doug q From pete at dunnington.u-net.com Wed Oct 10 12:40:13 2001 From: pete at dunnington.u-net.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:37 2005 Subject: 2.88 MB floppy drive, scsi? In-Reply-To: "Russ Blakeman" "RE: 2.88 MB floppy drive, scsi?" (Oct 10, 8:00) References: Message-ID: <10110101840.ZM8937@mindy.dunnington.u-net.com> On Oct 10, 8:00, Russ Blakeman wrote: > It may be that they are hooked to a SCSI controller, many have floppy > controllers on the SCSI board. Only ones I've ever heard of, including the > PS/2 drives, are MFM like any other. > -> On Wednesday, October 10, 2001 4:46 AM, Mike Ford > -> [SMTP:mikeford@socal.rr.com] > -> wrote: > -> > I've been looking for some 2.88 non-IBM PS/2 floppy drives, and I found > -> > some, but the guy says they are SCSI. Is that nuts or what? > -> > > -> > TEAC FD-235 J 5670-U W/SCSI Card > -> > TEAC FD-235 J 5670-U W/SCSI Card > -> > TEAC FD-235 J 610 W/SCSI Card Teac made SCSI floppies which were used by SGI and others; one of my Indigos has one, and a couple of friends have them too. The floppy is a more-or-less standard FD-235, except that most have a motorised eject. The SCSI card is an add-on, albeit a very compact one. If you don't want the SCSI cards, I can use them :-) -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager University of York From pete at dunnington.u-net.com Wed Oct 10 12:32:14 2001 From: pete at dunnington.u-net.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:37 2005 Subject: ArcNet and the Pursuit of Multiple Topologies In-Reply-To: Dave McGuire "Re: ArcNet and the Pursuit of Multiple Topologies" (Oct 10, 10:27) References: <0110091250010B.04845@simon> <10110100058.ZM8323@mindy.dunnington.u-net.com> <15300.23224.275936.322427@phaduka.neurotica.com> Message-ID: <10110101832.ZM8933@mindy.dunnington.u-net.com> On Oct 10, 10:27, Dave McGuire wrote: > On October 9, Pete Turnbull wrote: > > much larger house :-) The same fibre that carries FOIRL can (if it's the > > right size, 50/125) carry 10baseF, 100baseFX, 1000baseSX, ATM, FDDI, ... > > FDDI generally uses 62.5/125 fiber. All of ours used 50/125. It has better performance, and it was the standard when ours was installed. A lot of other UK installations were done later, and used 62.5/125 because that was more common in Europe at that time -- but they're now regretting it as 50/125 has become the standard for Gigabit. -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager University of York From pete at dunnington.u-net.com Wed Oct 10 12:26:57 2001 From: pete at dunnington.u-net.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:37 2005 Subject: Half-duplex VT420? In-Reply-To: Carlos Murillo "Re: Half-duplex VT420?" (Oct 10, 7:44) References: <2518.682T200T2834185optimus@canit.se> <3.0.2.32.20011010074435.01cc4dd8@obregon.multi.net.co> Message-ID: <10110101826.ZM8923@mindy.dunnington.u-net.com> On Oct 10, 7:44, Carlos Murillo wrote: > The vinegar seems to do a good job of eating the NiCd spill > and corrosion. What do other people on the list use? I usually use warm soapy water and a toothbrush, but I've used vinegar once or twice. -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager University of York From pete at dunnington.u-net.com Wed Oct 10 13:04:06 2001 From: pete at dunnington.u-net.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:37 2005 Subject: ArcNet and the Pursuit of Multiple Topologies In-Reply-To: "Iggy Drougge" "Re: ArcNet and the Pursuit of Multiple Topologies" (Oct 10, 15:45) References: <1550.683T450T9453635optimus@canit.se> Message-ID: <10110101904.ZM8953@mindy.dunnington.u-net.com> On Oct 10, 15:45, Iggy Drougge wrote: > Was DIX really the original Ethernet? Wasn't that 10 Mbps and all? Depends on your definition, I suppose. I was being a bit lazy (ie inaccurate :-)) when I wrote "original DIX Ethernet". The first system called Ethernet was developed at Xerox PARC, and that was 3Mb/s. It was originally called "Alto Aloha Network" but the name was changed becasue it would work for any suitably-equipped machine, not just an Alto. The first proposed cross-platform *standard* was the DIX standard, which was 10Mb/s. -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager University of York From cmurillo at multi.net.co Wed Oct 10 03:07:21 2001 From: cmurillo at multi.net.co (cmurillo@multi.net.co) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:37 2005 Subject: Half-duplex VT420? In-Reply-To: <624.683T1100T9824677optimus@canit.se> Message-ID: <3BB85F7D000008FC@obregon.multi.net.co> Ok, I found the 98643A in the '88 catalog. Under HP 9000 Technical Computers | Networking | HP SiteWire ; listed as "LAN/300 Link", it cost $1325 in '88. I did not know that this section actually referred to NICs. Thanks! now I know what to look for. I'll ask Mike Wolfson about this (he runs the fatmac site). Carlos. Iggy wrote: >Blimey, why is it so dark in here? 98643 is the number. There are some pages >scanned in from the installation guide on one of FatMac site, I think. Carlos E. Murillo-Sanchez email: carlos_murillo at ieee point org Universidad Autonoma de Manizales, Manizales, Colombia ---- "I'm not going to get involved in peer-review mumbo-jumbo." -- John Doolittle, House Republican, confronted by a reporter with the peer-review nature of the environmental studies he was dismissing. "Peer review is in fact the great mumbo-jumbo detector." -- Carl Sagan. From vcf at vintage.org Wed Oct 10 13:06:15 2001 From: vcf at vintage.org (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:37 2005 Subject: vintage schematic for academic use (fwd) Message-ID: Can anyone help Jeremy? Please respond to him directly. ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Wed, 10 Oct 2001 13:04:14 -0500 From: "Nolle, Jeremy" To: "'archive@vintage.org'" Subject: vintage schematic for academic use Hi! I am a student at Washington University in St Louis, and as a project in my EE class I would like to turn an old laptop into a standard VGA display. I have currently access to several Toshiba displays (4400c, 4700ct, etc) and can get Zenith displays also (433 vlps) from the mid 1990s. Do you have (know where to find) schematics for these displays? I also have the mainboards from these laptops, as well, although I dont think that will help. I will be building an A/D controller, and need to get the schematic before I start. Thanks! Jeremy Nolle jmn3@cec.wustl.edu jnolle@rgare.com -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org From zmerch at 30below.com Wed Oct 10 13:18:17 2001 From: zmerch at 30below.com (Roger Merchberger) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:37 2005 Subject: 2.88 MB floppy drive, scsi? In-Reply-To: <10110101840.ZM8937@mindy.dunnington.u-net.com> References: <"Russ Blakeman" Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20011010141302.024e3828@mail.30below.com> Rumor has it that Pete Turnbull may have mentioned these words: >Teac made SCSI floppies which were used by SGI and others; one of my >Indigos has one, and a couple of friends have them too. The floppy is a >more-or-less standard FD-235, except that most have a motorised eject. The >SCSI card is an add-on, albeit a very compact one. > >If you don't want the SCSI cards, I can use them :-) VAXStations use them, too -- it's basically a SCSI to MFM bridgeboard that is really quite compatible -- when my floppy drive died on my SCSI-enabled PeeCee, I snagged my spare VAX bridgeboard w/1.44 floppy, set the SCSI ID & slid it onto the chain... worked flawlessly. I doubt the bridgeboard would work for a 2.88Meg floppy, tho -- dunno if the "BIOS" (for lack of a better term) supports that density as it didn't exist until well after the board was built. I wouldn't mind having a spare, either -- they're tough to find... HTH, Roger "Merch" Merchberger From mythtech at Mac.com Wed Oct 10 13:36:37 2001 From: mythtech at Mac.com (Chris) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:37 2005 Subject: IDing WYSE terminal Message-ID: Is there a way to tell what type of WYSE terminal one is? I have a broken terminal that I need to figure out what kind it is, so I can connect a PC running emulation (or another terminal) to the system. The terminal itself carries only the name of my phone system (it is the operators terminal for it), but opening it shows a main board marked WYSE. But I can't find anything that says what KIND of wyse. Is there someplace is should be marked? It is possible to tell based on some of the chips? I also see some kind of a daughter card attached to the main board. Are these terminals custom programmable? Is it possible the phone system uses a stock terminal with some kind of custom additions (I sure hope not, but I have that fear, as the keyboard has some phone specific keys like Voice Mail on it... but I was really really hoping they were just regular keys and the system knows that things like "end" really mean enter the Voice Mail system). Anyone have any pointers for me about how to figure out what terminal type this is. Thanks (oh, and it should fit as on topic, since the only date I can find on the unit is a refurb'd sticker marked 1991, so it just had its 10 year B-day... at least since being refurbished, that and the phone system it belongs to was discontinued about 15 years ago) -chris From mikeford at socal.rr.com Wed Oct 10 13:37:45 2001 From: mikeford at socal.rr.com (Mike Ford) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:37 2005 Subject: ArcNet and the Pursuit of Multiple Topologies In-Reply-To: <1550.683T450T9453635optimus@canit.se> References: <10110100058.ZM8323@mindy.dunnington.u-net.com> Message-ID: What about the system that was used in large scale lab stuff, I am thinking by Kinetic Systems and it linked instrument racks together that they called Crates. They were all over the big physics labs. From mikeford at socal.rr.com Wed Oct 10 13:46:44 2001 From: mikeford at socal.rr.com (Mike Ford) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:37 2005 Subject: 2.88 MB floppy drive, scsi? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: >>There >>are those that dislike fooling with the SCSI 'voodoo' though. > >Once you get the dance steps down, and realize that you have to sacrifice >a lamb, not a chicken... the SCSI gods stop causing problems. :-) Solve your SCSI problems with one word, Granite. From mikeford at socal.rr.com Wed Oct 10 13:34:09 2001 From: mikeford at socal.rr.com (Mike Ford) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:37 2005 Subject: 2.88 MB floppy drive, scsi? In-Reply-To: <3BC44C94.3C5B9CF4@ccp.com> References: <0110091250010B.04845@simon> Message-ID: >What's the fuss about adding SCSI . . . In my world I consider that a >necessity I get dozens of cheap old PCs, mostly that I scrap, but I few that I like to play with. They are often quite functional in original configuration, and my investment in them is maybe $5. OTOH an Adaptec 2940 card is worth $35, and so far, since my bid of $13.29 didn't win, that makes the total cost of putting a 2.88 drive in an old PC kind of dumb. Oddly enough all the PS/2 I have include excellent SCSI controllers of all types, and use the 2.88 floppies I can get at no cost at all (brand new ones on ebay are $8). From rhblakeman at kih.net Wed Oct 10 13:47:14 2001 From: rhblakeman at kih.net (Russ Blakeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:37 2005 Subject: 2.88 MB floppy drive, scsi? In-Reply-To: <200110101701.f9AH1WL22839@narnia.int.dittman.net> Message-ID: Neither have I, including old XT systems. My first handheld color and color flatbed scanners came with their own Trantor based SCSI cards as well. -> -----Original Message----- -> From: owner-classiccmp@classiccmp.org -> [mailto:owner-classiccmp@classiccmp.org]On Behalf Of Eric Dittman -> Sent: Wednesday, October 10, 2001 12:02 PM -> To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org -> Subject: Re: 2.88 MB floppy drive, scsi? -> -> -> > >What's the fuss about adding SCSI . . . In my world I consider that a -> > >necessity -> > -> > Then you haven't added it to PCs. =) -> > PS/2s which are built with SCSI in mind seem to behave well, -> but adding it to -> > IDE motherboards seldom works out for me. -> -> I've never had much of a problem adding SCSI to my x86 systems. -> -- -> Eric Dittman -> dittman@dittman.net -> Check out the DEC Enthusiasts Club at http://www.dittman.net/ -> From mcguire at neurotica.com Wed Oct 10 13:56:24 2001 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:37 2005 Subject: ArcNet and the Pursuit of Multiple Topologies In-Reply-To: Re: ArcNet and the Pursuit of Multiple Topologies (Mike Ford) References: <10110100058.ZM8323@mindy.dunnington.u-net.com> Message-ID: <15300.39384.22513.753396@phaduka.neurotica.com> On October 10, Mike Ford wrote: > What about the system that was used in large scale lab stuff, I am thinking > by Kinetic Systems and it linked instrument racks together that they called > Crates. They were all over the big physics labs. Hmm...CAMAC comes to mind? Memory fading... -Dave -- Dave McGuire Laurel, MD From jruschme at Mac.com Wed Oct 10 13:58:51 2001 From: jruschme at Mac.com (John Ruschmeyer) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:37 2005 Subject: ArcNet and the Pursuit of Multiple Topologies In-Reply-To: <200110101807.NAA18140@opal.tseinc.com> Message-ID: Sounds a lot like a box I've been threatening to build for a while. On the Ethernet side, I'd not worry about specific 10bT and ThickNet segments. Instead, I'd run a single 10b2 (ThinNet) segment and get a 10bT hub with a BNC uplink. This also had the advantage of saving you a slot in the box. Don't worry about ThickNet, just pick up a couple of spare 10bT or 10b2 tranceivers for the odd box with an AUI port. Since you've got LocalTalk running to the box, then I'd also run MacGate which would let you run MacIP (IP over LocalTalk). As for other fun topologies, you already mentioned TokenRing. My personal choice would be to also add HomePNA (Ethernet over phonelines). The 1MB HomePNA 1.0 cards (the only ones supported by Linux)are very cheap these days. I picked up a pair from Computer Geeks (http://www.compgeeks.com) for something like $12. Now if I could just find a cheap Ethernet/HomePNA bridge for the Nubus Mac in the spare bedroom... <<>> -----Original Message----- Date: Tue, 9 Oct 2001 12:50:01 -0500 From: Tarsi Subject: ArcNet and the Pursuit of Multiple Topologies Dear all, I've decided that one of my goals is to run every networking topology possible in my house, regardless if I actually NEED to run them or not. :) My plan is to place 1 linux box running a card from each topology in it and use that to bridge all (or almost all) topologies. I currently have running 10bT ethernet, 10b2 ethernet, Localtalk over PhoneNET and the beginnings of Arcnet. In light of such, I have a series of questions: 1) Who knows some stuff about ArcNet? I've gotten 4 cards (8-bit ISA) and a 16-port active hub. I've read somewhere that cards are either hubbable or not. Any other info on that? 2) Anyone have any (I think it is) 93ohm coax arcnet patch cables that they want to get rid of? 3) Anyone got good resources on ThickNET? (10b5 I think it is?) I know it was run back in the day, and I know some precursory things about it (the funky vampire taps, etc.) Anyone have either resources or hardware on this topology that they'd like to share/sell/etc? :) 4) Any other interesting topologies I should try? I have plans to do: Arcnet, FDDI, Token ring, Localtalk, 10b2, 10b5, 10bT, 10bTX, 10bFiber, and (eventually) 802.11b wireless. From pete at dunnington.u-net.com Wed Oct 10 14:17:09 2001 From: pete at dunnington.u-net.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:37 2005 Subject: 2.88 MB floppy drive, scsi? In-Reply-To: Roger Merchberger "Re: 2.88 MB floppy drive, scsi?" (Oct 10, 14:18) References: <"Russ Blakeman" <5.1.0.14.2.20011010141302.024e3828@mail.30below.com> Message-ID: <10110102017.ZM9063@mindy.dunnington.u-net.com> On Oct 10, 14:18, Roger Merchberger wrote: > Rumor has it that Pete Turnbull may have mentioned these words: > > >Teac made SCSI floppies which were used by SGI and others; one of my > >Indigos has one, and a couple of friends have them too. The floppy is a > >more-or-less standard FD-235, except that most have a motorised eject. The > >SCSI card is an add-on, albeit a very compact one. > > > >If you don't want the SCSI cards, I can use them :-) > > VAXStations use them, too -- it's basically a SCSI to MFM bridgeboard that > is really quite compatible -- when my floppy drive died on my SCSI-enabled > PeeCee, I snagged my spare VAX bridgeboard w/1.44 floppy, set the SCSI ID & > slid it onto the chain... worked flawlessly. > > I doubt the bridgeboard would work for a 2.88Meg floppy, tho -- dunno if > the "BIOS" (for lack of a better term) supports that density as it didn't > exist until well after the board was built. Possibly not. I have a DEC one that certainly does, but it's much larger than the TEAC ones, which fit under the drive in a small frame the same form factor as the drive. They're so small and thin that at first glance you might not notice there's an "extra bit". -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager University of York From dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com Wed Oct 10 14:23:14 2001 From: dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com (Douglas Quebbeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:37 2005 Subject: IDing WYSE terminal Message-ID: <7A9BACCEF0171D4FB77019F5104CDD372257C2@jeffserver.tegjeff.com> > Is there a way to tell what type of WYSE terminal one is? Post a digital pic on your webpage so we can look 'n' see? -dq From ghldbrd at ccp.com Wed Oct 10 14:38:21 2001 From: ghldbrd at ccp.com (Gary Hildebrand) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:37 2005 Subject: ADA 1600 for Pet? References: <3.0.6.32.20011010113301.0079e1f0@mailhost.intellistar.net> Message-ID: <3BC4A3AD.FB66144A@ccp.com> Joe wrote: > > I recently picked up a box called a "ADA 1600 Pet Printer Interface". > It's a box slightly larger than a pack of cigarettes with two cables > attached to it. One cable has a Centronics type connector on it and the > other has a small circuit board with both a male and female 24 position > card edge connectors on it. Is anyone familar with it or does anyone know > which model PET it's for? > > Joe I think that's an IEEE (HP-IB) to centronics adapter box. I remember the PETS were famous for that IEEE interface for both disk drives and printers. The same philosophy continued into the VIC and C=64 lines, but in a modified serial format. Typical Commodore, just enough different to be a pain . . . . Gary Hildebrand From erd_6502 at yahoo.com Wed Oct 10 14:46:52 2001 From: erd_6502 at yahoo.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:37 2005 Subject: Amiga 3000 problem In-Reply-To: <696.669T1550T195415optimus@canit.se> Message-ID: <20011010194652.19481.qmail@web20105.mail.yahoo.com> --- Iggy Drougge wrote: > Ethan Dicks skrev: > > >I had problems with my PALs there, too. My symptoms were sparklies and > >wavy video lines. I tried to burn my own replacements, but I was never > >able to get any of mine to work there. Not sure if it was a speed or > >vendor problem or not. In the end, I bought a new set from a C= > reseller. > > A friend of mine tells me that the A3000 PALs were of a particularly fast > kind. He's been having a lot of troubles sourcing them. Yeah. They're something fast - 15ns or 7.5 ns or something horrendous like that. Not 25ns for sure. Don't know where you'd get a set now. Mine were purchased over 5 years ago. Might be easier to find an A3000 to pull that set from. -ethan __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Make a great connection at Yahoo! Personals. http://personals.yahoo.com From rhblakeman at kih.net Wed Oct 10 14:53:50 2001 From: rhblakeman at kih.net (Russ Blakeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:37 2005 Subject: 2.88 MB floppy drive, scsi? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: the 2940 line, especially the U and UW adapters, are very pricey but well worth it. I just bought a 2940UW in a buy-it-now for $40 since the regular bid items go for $60 and over and surplusers usually start at $50 or more. Of course for a 486 or slower Pentium with PCI that is overkill. I put a 2940U and 2940UW in my Server320 w/dual Pentium 200's as it can deal with the throughput unlike my old microchannel 9595-OPT. I prefer the 27xx line for older EISA machines - cheap enough but also fast. -> -----Original Message----- -> From: owner-classiccmp@classiccmp.org -> [mailto:owner-classiccmp@classiccmp.org]On Behalf Of Mike Ford -> Sent: Wednesday, October 10, 2001 1:34 PM -> To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org -> Subject: Re: 2.88 MB floppy drive, scsi? -> -> -> >What's the fuss about adding SCSI . . . In my world I consider that a -> >necessity -> -> I get dozens of cheap old PCs, mostly that I scrap, but I few that I like -> to play with. They are often quite functional in original configuration, -> and my investment in them is maybe $5. OTOH an Adaptec 2940 card is worth -> $35, and so far, since my bid of $13.29 didn't win, that makes the total -> cost of putting a 2.88 drive in an old PC kind of dumb. -> -> Oddly enough all the PS/2 I have include excellent SCSI -> controllers of all -> types, and use the 2.88 floppies I can get at no cost at all (brand new -> ones on ebay are $8). -> -> -> From mikeford at socal.rr.com Wed Oct 10 14:49:25 2001 From: mikeford at socal.rr.com (Mike Ford) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:37 2005 Subject: ArcNet and the Pursuit of Multiple Topologies In-Reply-To: References: <1550.683T450T9453635optimus@canit.se> <10110100058.ZM8323@mindy.dunnington.u-net.com> Message-ID: And what about a TOPS network? From mikeford at socal.rr.com Wed Oct 10 14:58:45 2001 From: mikeford at socal.rr.com (Mike Ford) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:37 2005 Subject: ArcNet and the Pursuit of Multiple Topologies In-Reply-To: References: <200110101807.NAA18140@opal.tseinc.com> Message-ID: >Since you've got LocalTalk running to the box, then I'd also run MacGate >which would let you run MacIP (IP over LocalTalk). Good page for MacGate looks like http://www.linux-sna.org/software2/Appletalk/index.html >As for other fun topologies, you already mentioned TokenRing. My personal >choice would be to also add HomePNA (Ethernet over phonelines). The 1MB >HomePNA 1.0 cards (the only ones supported by Linux)are very cheap these >days. I picked up a pair from Computer Geeks (http://www.compgeeks.com) for >something like $12. Now if I could just find a cheap Ethernet/HomePNA bridge >for the Nubus Mac in the spare bedroom... I was lucky and picked up a couple cards from MicroCenter including the network/modem gateway card. From mythtech at Mac.com Wed Oct 10 15:57:29 2001 From: mythtech at Mac.com (Chris) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:37 2005 Subject: IDing WYSE terminal Message-ID: >Post a digital pic on your webpage so we can look 'n' see? K.. but it will have to wait until tomorrow (I have to bring my camera in to work). Any particular shots you want? Front, Sides, Insides... posing in a nightie? I was able to find a "part number" on the main board. Claims to be a 980100-01 Rev D. I am about to hit WYSE's site to see if that gets me anywhere. While I am posting pics, I will post ones of my other terminal for another phone system, since ultimatly I want to get it replaced as well. The other one I am guessing to be a Qume of some kind (I have better docs for the 2nd phone system, and it hints at it being a Qume, but doesn't say a Qume what, or even if it IS one). The two terminals look TOTALLY different. (but the 2nd one isn't as big of a deal, since I am able to connect a laptop to it running a TVI-50(?) emulator). -chris From geoffr at zipcon.net Wed Oct 10 16:28:35 2001 From: geoffr at zipcon.net (Geoff Reed) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:37 2005 Subject: 2.88 MB floppy drive, scsi? In-Reply-To: <293.683T2150T9835427optimus@canit.se> References: <3BC44C94.3C5B9CF4@ccp.com> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20011010142806.02e406e0@mail.zipcon.net> >Then you haven't added it to PCs. =) >PS/2s which are built with SCSI in mind seem to behave well, but adding it to >IDE motherboards seldom works out for me. I've yet to have any real problems using adaptec cards in pc's that have ide on them. From vance at ikickass.org Wed Oct 10 17:05:56 2001 From: vance at ikickass.org (One Without Reason) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:37 2005 Subject: ArcNet and the Pursuit of Multiple Topologies In-Reply-To: Message-ID: There was another network that completely slipped my mind. Myrinet. MYRINET!!!! Peace... Sridhar On Wed, 10 Oct 2001, John Ruschmeyer wrote: > Sounds a lot like a box I've been threatening to build for a while. > > On the Ethernet side, I'd not worry about specific 10bT and ThickNet > segments. Instead, I'd run a single 10b2 (ThinNet) segment and get a 10bT > hub with a BNC uplink. This also had the advantage of saving you a slot in > the box. Don't worry about ThickNet, just pick up a couple of spare 10bT or > 10b2 tranceivers for the odd box with an AUI port. > > Since you've got LocalTalk running to the box, then I'd also run MacGate > which would let you run MacIP (IP over LocalTalk). > > As for other fun topologies, you already mentioned TokenRing. My personal > choice would be to also add HomePNA (Ethernet over phonelines). The 1MB > HomePNA 1.0 cards (the only ones supported by Linux)are very cheap these > days. I picked up a pair from Computer Geeks (http://www.compgeeks.com) for > something like $12. Now if I could just find a cheap Ethernet/HomePNA bridge > for the Nubus Mac in the spare bedroom... > > <<>> > > -----Original Message----- > Date: Tue, 9 Oct 2001 12:50:01 -0500 > From: Tarsi > Subject: ArcNet and the Pursuit of Multiple Topologies > > Dear all, > > I've decided that one of my goals is to run every networking topology > possible in my house, regardless if I actually NEED to run them or not. :) > > My plan is to place 1 linux box running a card from each topology in it and > use that to bridge all (or almost all) topologies. > > I currently have running 10bT ethernet, 10b2 ethernet, Localtalk over > PhoneNET and the beginnings of Arcnet. > > In light of such, I have a series of questions: > > 1) Who knows some stuff about ArcNet? I've gotten 4 cards (8-bit ISA) and > a > 16-port active hub. I've read somewhere that cards are either hubbable or > not. Any other info on that? > > 2) Anyone have any (I think it is) 93ohm coax arcnet patch cables that they > want to get rid of? > > 3) Anyone got good resources on ThickNET? (10b5 I think it is?) I know it > was run back in the day, and I know some precursory things about it (the > funky vampire taps, etc.) Anyone have either resources or hardware on this > topology that they'd like to share/sell/etc? :) > > 4) Any other interesting topologies I should try? I have plans to do: > Arcnet, FDDI, Token ring, Localtalk, 10b2, 10b5, 10bT, 10bTX, 10bFiber, and > (eventually) 802.11b wireless. > > From vance at ikickass.org Wed Oct 10 17:09:00 2001 From: vance at ikickass.org (One Without Reason) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:37 2005 Subject: 2.88 MB floppy drive, scsi? In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20011010142806.02e406e0@mail.zipcon.net> Message-ID: I've used Adaptec, Trantor, Mylex, IBM, Maxtor, DPT, and LSI Logic without trouble in PCs. Peace... Sridhar On Wed, 10 Oct 2001, Geoff Reed wrote: > > >Then you haven't added it to PCs. =) > >PS/2s which are built with SCSI in mind seem to behave well, but adding it to > >IDE motherboards seldom works out for me. > > I've yet to have any real problems using adaptec cards in pc's that have > ide on them. > From KenzieM at sympatico.ca Wed Oct 10 17:11:17 2001 From: KenzieM at sympatico.ca (Mike Kenzie) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:37 2005 Subject: OT: Mark-8 repro kits Message-ID: <003f01c151d9$5c029230$0101a8c0@sympatico.ca> Has anyone here obtained one of these kits currently listed on ebay for $120. Are the parts readily available or will they have to be purchased with the kit? Are there any other kits being made? Collector of Vintage Computers (www.ncf.ca/~ba600) From jhellige at earthlink.net Wed Oct 10 17:37:30 2001 From: jhellige at earthlink.net (Jeff Hellige) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:38 2005 Subject: 2.88 MB floppy drive, scsi? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: > >There >>are those that dislike fooling with the SCSI 'voodoo' though. > >Once you get the dance steps down, and realize that you have to sacrifice >a lamb, not a chicken... the SCSI gods stop causing problems. :-) I've had my share of oddly behaving SCSI chains but in the end, most could be traced to cable problems. Then there's always my PS/2 with the built-in ESDI and my attempt at using an IBM SCSI board. No matter what I did, the two conflicted until I pulled the BIOS off of the SCSI board. Other than losing the ability to boot from it, it works great with CD-ROMs and hard disks. Jeff -- Home of the TRS-80 Model 2000 FAQ File http://www.cchaven.com http://www.geocities.com/siliconvalley/lakes/6757 From jhellige at earthlink.net Wed Oct 10 17:40:44 2001 From: jhellige at earthlink.net (Jeff Hellige) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:38 2005 Subject: slightly OT but may of interest to OS/2 users... In-Reply-To: <69.1c32499d.28f5d0bb@aol.com> References: <69.1c32499d.28f5d0bb@aol.com> Message-ID: >In a message dated 10/10/2001 9:31:42 AM Central Daylight Time, >jhellige@earthlink.net writes: > ><< Here's a Connectix press release from yesterday stating that > they are working on an OS/2 version of Virtual PC so that OS/2 users > could run both OS/2 and Windows on the same machine concurrently: > >> > >Excellent! I'm glad to see that a real OS finally still gets recognition. Even on my PS/2 luggable, integrating OS/2 Warp Connect with it's Novell client into our LAN at work was much easier than any of the Windows set ups. It worked better too and the OS was 6+ years old running on 10 year old hardware. Jeff -- Home of the TRS-80 Model 2000 FAQ File http://www.cchaven.com http://www.geocities.com/siliconvalley/lakes/6757 From jhellige at earthlink.net Wed Oct 10 17:44:12 2001 From: jhellige at earthlink.net (Jeff Hellige) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:38 2005 Subject: 2.88 MB floppy drive, scsi? In-Reply-To: <200110101701.f9AH1WL22839@narnia.int.dittman.net> References: <200110101701.f9AH1WL22839@narnia.int.dittman.net> Message-ID: > > >What's the fuss about adding SCSI . . . In my world I consider that a >> >necessity >> >> Then you haven't added it to PCs. =) >> PS/2s which are built with SCSI in mind seem to behave well, but >>adding it to >> IDE motherboards seldom works out for me. > >I've never had much of a problem adding SCSI to my x86 systems. I've always used Adaptec boards on both PC's and Mac's, including on the junk Compaq laptop I had for a while, and never had a problem. Adaptec even sent me a free BIOS ROM upgrade in the mail a few years ago to break the 2GB barrier on a 1522A. My current G3/450 has both a 2940U2B and a 2930U installed. Jeff -- Home of the TRS-80 Model 2000 FAQ File http://www.cchaven.com http://www.geocities.com/siliconvalley/lakes/6757 From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Wed Oct 10 17:38:51 2001 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (ajp166) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:38 2005 Subject: ArcNet and the Pursuit of Multiple Topologies Message-ID: <009601c151de$535c9310$62ef9a8d@ajp166> Ah, you forgot the other transport, IP over morse code(cw). I believe RICM may have a copy of the document. Allison -----Original Message----- From: Iggy Drougge To: Derek Peschel Date: Wednesday, October 10, 2001 10:36 AM Subject: Re: ArcNet and the Pursuit of Multiple Topologies >Derek Peschel skrev: > >>On Tue, Oct 09, 2001 at 11:29:12PM +0000, Pete Turnbull wrote: >>> >>> Nope. The RFC exists (RFC 1149) and there has been a practical >>> implementation. See http://www.blug.linux.no/rfc1149/ > >>For a moment I wondered if the Web site was set up using the same protocol >>(as a proof of concept?) but luckily it's just a normal Web site. :) > >Well, there should be high latency, but the packet sizes should be quite good. >=) > >-- >En ligne avec Thor 2.6a. > >Goto: A programming tool that exists to allow structured programmers to >complain about unstructured programmers. > > From mythtech at Mac.com Wed Oct 10 18:08:27 2001 From: mythtech at Mac.com (Chris) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:38 2005 Subject: IDing WYSE terminal Message-ID: >Post a digital pic on your webpage so we can look 'n' see? Ok... pics are up (sorry, no risque terminal pics). Go to There are two terms there. One is a Wyse something (maybe a 60 based on pics I just saw on ebay). The other is a Qume, that I am fairly certain is a Qume QVT-108 (seeing as that is silk screened on the main board). Both have some kind of a daughter card. Are the cards normal or are they some custom programmable thing to give the terminal special abilities for its used application. The Wyse terminal is from an Isoetec EZ-1/66 phone system. The Qume is from an Isoetec EZ-1/96 system. If people can ID these, are there any recommendations as to where to get these terminals CHEAP (I saw some Wyse 60's on ebay for about $40, but I can't find any Qume QVT-108s). If terminals aren't available, does anyone have a recommendation of emulation software I can run. Thanks muchly -chris From rhblakeman at kih.net Wed Oct 10 18:22:24 2001 From: rhblakeman at kih.net (Russ Blakeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:38 2005 Subject: 2.88 MB floppy drive, scsi? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: My problems have always been traced to a tired tech (me) not paying attention to some drive's ID jumpers being different on different type cdroms, hard drives, etc. I no longer use the setting dials unless the drive came with the case that has the dial as they have screwed me up as well. Temrinators can be a pain too even for experinced people at times. -> -----Original Message----- -> From: owner-classiccmp@classiccmp.org -> [mailto:owner-classiccmp@classiccmp.org]On Behalf Of Jeff Hellige -> Sent: Wednesday, October 10, 2001 5:38 PM -> To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org -> Subject: Re: 2.88 MB floppy drive, scsi? -> -> -> > >There -> >>are those that dislike fooling with the SCSI 'voodoo' though. -> > -> >Once you get the dance steps down, and realize that you have to -> sacrifice -> >a lamb, not a chicken... the SCSI gods stop causing problems. :-) -> -> I've had my share of oddly behaving SCSI chains but in the -> end, most could be traced to cable problems. Then there's always my -> PS/2 with the built-in ESDI and my attempt at using an IBM SCSI -> board. No matter what I did, the two conflicted until I pulled the -> BIOS off of the SCSI board. Other than losing the ability to boot -> from it, it works great with CD-ROMs and hard disks. -> -> Jeff -> -- -> Home of the TRS-80 Model 2000 FAQ File -> http://www.cchaven.com -> http://www.geocities.com/siliconvalley/lakes/6757 -> -> From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Oct 10 17:50:01 2001 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:38 2005 Subject: ArcNet and the Pursuit of Multiple Topologies In-Reply-To: <10110100058.ZM8323@mindy.dunnington.u-net.com> from "Pete Turnbull" at Oct 9, 1 11:58:23 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 579 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20011010/892b5bea/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Oct 10 18:25:17 2001 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:38 2005 Subject: Research Machines Information In-Reply-To: <579AC59C515DD211B38B00A0C9B22928B79DBD@HEMESC.sema.co.uk> from "HARDY, Simon" at Oct 10, 1 02:57:50 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 839 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20011011/2b81a8ec/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Oct 10 18:26:47 2001 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:38 2005 Subject: IBM ROM BASIC or lack thereof In-Reply-To: <553.683T2450T9415743optimus@canit.se> from "Iggy Drougge" at Oct 10, 1 03:41:49 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 383 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20011011/a2a2f2e4/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Oct 10 18:29:52 2001 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:38 2005 Subject: 2.88 MB floppy drive, scsi? In-Reply-To: <1092.683T650T9474051optimus@canit.se> from "Iggy Drougge" at Oct 10, 1 03:47:13 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 701 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20011011/34881324/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Oct 10 18:06:11 2001 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:38 2005 Subject: ZX Spectrum internals (Was: ZX81 kits) In-Reply-To: <20011010032127.ION799.imf15bis.bellsouth.net@thegoodw> from "Glen Goodwin" at Oct 9, 1 11:19:41 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 972 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20011011/4f9494e1/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Oct 10 18:39:38 2001 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:38 2005 Subject: ADA 1600 for Pet? In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.32.20011010113301.0079e1f0@mailhost.intellistar.net> from "Joe" at Oct 10, 1 11:33:01 am Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 850 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20011011/b8d13b0e/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Oct 10 18:13:05 2001 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:38 2005 Subject: IBM ROM BASIC or lack thereof In-Reply-To: from "gwynp@artware.qc.ca" at Oct 10, 1 02:20:27 am Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 895 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20011011/4ba28ba8/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Oct 10 18:43:19 2001 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:38 2005 Subject: ArcNet and the Pursuit of Multiple Topologies In-Reply-To: <15300.39384.22513.753396@phaduka.neurotica.com> from "Dave McGuire" at Oct 10, 1 02:56:24 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 397 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20011011/9d7dbee3/attachment.ksh From mikeford at socal.rr.com Wed Oct 10 19:20:52 2001 From: mikeford at socal.rr.com (Mike Ford) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:38 2005 Subject: 2.88 MB floppy drive, scsi? In-Reply-To: References: <200110101701.f9AH1WL22839@narnia.int.dittman.net> <200110101701.f9AH1WL22839@narnia.int.dittman.net> Message-ID: >G3/450 has both a 2940U2B and a 2930U installed. 2930 or maybe 2906 is the trouble maker. From john_boffemmyer_iv at boff-net.dhs.org Wed Oct 10 19:45:42 2001 From: john_boffemmyer_iv at boff-net.dhs.org (John Boffemmyer IV) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:38 2005 Subject: ArcNet and the Pursuit of Multiple Topologies In-Reply-To: References: <200110101807.NAA18140@opal.tseinc.com> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20011010203544.009ded40@sokieserv.dhs.org> Grin, did someone mention Token Ring? One of my favorite toys to play with? I've often found Token Ring better than EtherNet and AppleTalk. While on the slew of topics, I must also say that I love SCSI. I used to be a die-hard IDE fan and then came along a head-to-platter crash. Away went three term papers. After that, I went to SCSi and haven't had an actual failure yet (over 4 years, a few of my drives were used and over 9 to 10 years old). Plus, the whole idea of LUNS, ID's and Termination with chains was more logical and reliable in the long run. -John Boffemmyer IV At 03:58 PM 10/10/01, you wrote: > >Since you've got LocalTalk running to the box, then I'd also run MacGate > >which would let you run MacIP (IP over LocalTalk). > >Good page for MacGate looks like >http://www.linux-sna.org/software2/Appletalk/index.html > > >As for other fun topologies, you already mentioned TokenRing. My personal > >choice would be to also add HomePNA (Ethernet over phonelines). The 1MB > >HomePNA 1.0 cards (the only ones supported by Linux)are very cheap these > >days. I picked up a pair from Computer Geeks (http://www.compgeeks.com) for > >something like $12. Now if I could just find a cheap Ethernet/HomePNA bridge > >for the Nubus Mac in the spare bedroom... > >I was lucky and picked up a couple cards from MicroCenter including the >network/modem gateway card. ---------------------------------------- Founder, Lead Writer, Tech Analyst and Web Designer Boff-Net Technologies http://boff-net.dhs.org/index.html --------------------------------------- From brian at quarterbyte.com Wed Oct 10 19:49:16 2001 From: brian at quarterbyte.com (Brian Knittel) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:38 2005 Subject: ArcNet and the Pursuit of Multiple Topologies Message-ID: <3BC48A1C.16385.AD94BE4@localhost> > I think you'll have trouble if you use anything other than 63 ohm coax... The cable is designated RG-62, but it's 93 ohm cable. Cards could be connected to an active hub or a passive hub. Passive hubs required 93-ohm terminators on the unused ports. But with an active hub you're all set. I have a couple of cables with BNC connectors, and I think a few left-over crimp-on connectors that you're welcome to have for the cost of shipping (or pick up in Berkeley, CA). Write to me offline. I got rid of a heap of arcnet stuff last year, alas. I think it's all at the Alameda County Computer Resource Center :) By the way -- how about DVD's via pneumatic tube? Now THAT is a high-bandwidth medium. I can sell you some pneumatic tube equipment too :) Brian From dtwright at uiuc.edu Wed Oct 10 19:53:48 2001 From: dtwright at uiuc.edu (Dan Wright) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:38 2005 Subject: IDing WYSE terminal In-Reply-To: ; from mythtech@Mac.com on Wed, Oct 10, 2001 at 07:08:27PM -0400 References: Message-ID: <20011010195348.B1284856@uiuc.edu> Chris said: > >Post a digital pic on your webpage so we can look 'n' see? > > Ok... pics are up (sorry, no risque terminal pics). > > Go to > > There are two terms there. One is a Wyse something (maybe a 60 based on > pics I just saw on ebay). The other is a Qume, that I am fairly certain > is a Qume QVT-108 (seeing as that is silk screened on the main board). > Both have some kind of a daughter card. Are the cards normal or are they > some custom programmable thing to give the terminal special abilities for > its used application. That definitly looks like a WY-60 to me; we used to have them at a public library I worked at in high school :) Don't know about the daughter card though... > > The Wyse terminal is from an Isoetec EZ-1/66 phone system. The Qume is > from an Isoetec EZ-1/96 system. > > If people can ID these, are there any recommendations as to where to get > these terminals CHEAP (I saw some Wyse 60's on ebay for about $40, but I > can't find any Qume QVT-108s). If terminals aren't available, does anyone > have a recommendation of emulation software I can run. > > Thanks muchly > > -chris > > - Dan Wright (dtwright@uiuc.edu) (http://www.uiuc.edu/~dtwright) -] ------------------------------ [-] -------------------------------- [- ``Weave a circle round him thrice, / And close your eyes with holy dread, For he on honeydew hath fed, / and drunk the milk of Paradise.'' Samuel Taylor Coleridge, Kubla Khan -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 229 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20011010/576d52c0/attachment.bin From jhellige at earthlink.net Wed Oct 10 19:55:23 2001 From: jhellige at earthlink.net (Jeff Hellige) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:38 2005 Subject: 2.88 MB floppy drive, scsi? In-Reply-To: References: <200110101701.f9AH1WL22839@narnia.int.dittman.net> <200110101701.f9AH1WL22839@narnia.int.dittman.net> Message-ID: > >G3/450 has both a 2940U2B and a 2930U installed. > >2930 or maybe 2906 is the trouble maker. The 2930 was moved over from a previous machine and I have never had any problems with it. The 2940 runs one of my two internal hard disks (the other is UltraATA) while the 2930 runs all of my older SCSI legacy stuff, such as my scanner, a CD-R, and whatever else I'm playing with at the time. I've also run Adaptec EISA boards in network servers without a problem. The only Adaptec board I've ever had trouble with was while trying to install a 1542 into a loaded clone. The 1542 conflicted with some of the other stuff I had on the ISA bus. Otherwise I've been quite happy with every Adaptec board I've ever used, from the lowend 1510/1522A to the 2940 UW I'm running now. Jeff -- Home of the TRS-80 Model 2000 FAQ File http://www.cchaven.com http://www.geocities.com/siliconvalley/lakes/6757 From cisin at xenosoft.com Wed Oct 10 20:00:53 2001 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin (XenoSoft)) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:38 2005 Subject: 2.88 MB floppy drive, scsi? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: > > It's quite possible to adapt PS/2 floppies to the common PC interface. A > > friend of mine converted them for Amiga use, and the difference between the > > Amiga and PC interfaces are negligible. On Thu, 11 Oct 2001, Tony Duell wrote: > A few weeks back somebody (not on the list) kindly gave me a PS/2 > hardware techref. It's nowhere near as good as the original techrefs (no > schematics, no ROM source code), but it does contain a lot of useful > information on things like the Microchannel bus. > Anyway, it also contains the pinout of the PS/2 floppy drive. I can look > it up if you need it, but it's approximately the standard floppy > interface on 34 of the pins (in the normal order) with power on the > remaining ones, I think. THAT part is trivial. What is a little harder is that a 2.8M drive (It is NOT 2.88 for anybody who knows how to multiply) uses a data transfer rate of about 1 Meg bits per second - twice that of the 1.4M. Although, in theory, it would be "possible" to build a drive that spun at 150RPM to be able to use the slower data transfer rate that 1.4M drives are accustomed to. (It was done with 1.2M 5.25" in order to add high density to XT controllers!) -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin@xenosoft.com From optimus at canit.se Wed Oct 10 21:15:43 2001 From: optimus at canit.se (Iggy Drougge) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:38 2005 Subject: IDing WYSE terminal In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <1133.684T2150T1955715optimus@canit.se> Chris skrev: >>Post a digital pic on your webpage so we can look 'n' see? >Ok... pics are up (sorry, no risque terminal pics). >Go to >If people can ID these, are there any recommendations as to where to get >these terminals CHEAP (I saw some Wyse 60's on ebay for about $40, but I >can't find any Qume QVT-108s). If terminals aren't available, does anyone >have a recommendation of emulation software I can run. It looks identical superficially to my WY60. Though yours is much whiter on the picture. Mine is grey, much the same kind of grey as Atari STs. It seems that WYSEs are notorious for being frail. There is WYSE emulation software available, but at a cost. Speaking of WY60s, mine refuses to use eight-bit characters. It's stuck in ISO-646-SE mode, which is a bit of a bother. The "propeller" when NetBSD is loading goes: ?/-??/-??/-??/-, or something like that. And so on. Is it intrinsically stuck in its 80s mode or what? -- En ligne avec Thor 2.6a. G? med i SUGA, Swedish Usergroup of Amiga! WWW: http://swedish.usergroup.amiga.tm/ BBS: 08-6582572, telnet://sua.ath.cx:42512 From terryf at intersurf.com Wed Oct 10 21:00:05 2001 From: terryf at intersurf.com (terryf@intersurf.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:38 2005 Subject: IDing WYSE terminal In-Reply-To: <20011010195348.B1284856@uiuc.edu> References: Message-ID: <4.1.20011010205637.01ee7c40@pop3.norton.antivirus> >> >> The Wyse terminal is from an Isoetec EZ-1/66 phone system. The Qume is >> from an Isoetec EZ-1/96 system. >> >> If people can ID these, are there any recommendations as to where to get >> these terminals CHEAP (I saw some Wyse 60's on ebay for about $40, but I >> can't find any Qume QVT-108s). If terminals aren't available, does anyone >> have a recommendation of emulation software I can run. >> > I believe the daughter cards are RS422 adapter cards. We have an Executone phone system at work and it uses what appear to be standard Wyse terminals (just like the pic), however they are modified for 422 in order to handle the distances from the terminal to the switch. Terry From optimus at canit.se Wed Oct 10 21:57:26 2001 From: optimus at canit.se (Iggy Drougge) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:38 2005 Subject: IBM ROM BASIC or lack thereof In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <622.684T1300T2374869optimus@canit.se> Tony Duell skrev: >> >Well I've learnt something! I always refer to those connectors as DB9's. I >> >guess I can practice one-upmanship and refer to them as DE9's in future! >> >> I just call them D9s, that way I'm not referring to anything else or non- >> existant, though not being absolutely precise. >Yes, but is your D15 a DA15 (PC joystick, ethernet AUI) or a (H)DE15 (PC >VGA monitor) ? Either it's a D15 or a D15HD/HD15. That way no-one will be confused. -- En ligne avec Thor 2.6a. G? med i SUGA, Swedish Usergroup of Amiga! WWW: http://swedish.usergroup.amiga.tm/ BBS: 08-6582572, telnet://sua.ath.cx:42512 From optimus at canit.se Wed Oct 10 21:56:36 2001 From: optimus at canit.se (Iggy Drougge) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:38 2005 Subject: 2.88 MB floppy drive, scsi? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <949.684T1800T2365653optimus@canit.se> XenoSoft skrev: [snip] >THAT part is trivial. >What is a little harder is that a 2.8M drive (It is NOT 2.88 for anybody >who knows how to multiply) uses a data transfer rate of about 1 Meg bits >per second - twice that of the 1.4M. Although, in theory, it would be >"possible" to build a drive that spun at 150RPM to be able to use the >slower data transfer rate that 1.4M drives are accustomed to. (It was >done with 1.2M 5.25" in order to add high density to XT controllers!) That was also done by good old cost-cutting Commodore in order to add HD capabilities to the Amiga 3000 and 4000. They ordered a batch of custom-made drives which would step down to half the rate when using HD floppies, so that the same old floppy controller could keep up. Which makes using Commodore's HD drives nearly unbearably slow, I might add. There are other solutions, though, such as Power Computing's drives or the Catweasel. -- En ligne avec Thor 2.6a. From optimus at canit.se Wed Oct 10 22:01:50 2001 From: optimus at canit.se (Iggy Drougge) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:38 2005 Subject: ArcNet and the Pursuit of Multiple Topologies In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20011010203544.009ded40@sokieserv.dhs.org> Message-ID: <842.684T2500T2415925optimus@canit.se> John Boffemmyer IV skrev: >While on the slew of topics, I must also say that I love SCSI. I used to be >a die-hard IDE fan and then came along a head-to-platter crash. Away went >three term papers. After that, I went to SCSi and haven't had an actual >failure yet (over 4 years, a few of my drives were used and over 9 to 10 >years old). Plus, the whole idea of LUNS, ID's and Termination with chains >was more logical and reliable in the long run. All right, how could one be a "die-hard IDE fan"? Does that interface have any redeeming qualities whatsoever? And don't mention price, we've all heard that before, but the difference wasn't quite as marked before Apple et al left the SCSI market. -- En ligne avec Thor 2.6a. Goto: A programming tool that exists to allow structured programmers to complain about unstructured programmers. From gwynp at artware.qc.ca Wed Oct 10 21:13:40 2001 From: gwynp at artware.qc.ca (gwynp@artware.qc.ca) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:38 2005 Subject: IBM ROM BASIC or lack thereof In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On 10-Oct-2001 Tony Duell wrote: > But these PC shops tended to use 'MFM' to mean a hard disk with an > interface similar to the de-facto standard set by the ST506 and ST412 > drives. The standard that's commonly called the 'ST506 interface'. On > several occasions I asked for 'An ST506 interface hard disk of about > 50Mbytes' and had to explain what I meant... There was once a computer "sales" person that tried to sell me an Intel 586. Needless to say, the person failed. -Philip From mcguire at neurotica.com Wed Oct 10 21:14:27 2001 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:38 2005 Subject: IDing WYSE terminal In-Reply-To: RE: IDing WYSE terminal (Iggy Drougge) References: <1133.684T2150T1955715optimus@canit.se> Message-ID: <15301.131.482725.203983@phaduka.neurotica.com> On October 11, Iggy Drougge wrote: > It seems that WYSEs are notorious for being frail. There is WYSE emulation > software available, but at a cost. Interesting...I've had a few over the years, and have found them to be nearly indestructible. Guess I got lucky! :-) -Dave -- Dave McGuire Laurel, MD From aw288 at osfn.org Wed Oct 10 21:30:28 2001 From: aw288 at osfn.org (William Donzelli) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:38 2005 Subject: ArcNet and the Pursuit of Multiple Topologies In-Reply-To: <009601c151de$535c9310$62ef9a8d@ajp166> Message-ID: > Ah, you forgot the other transport, IP over morse code(cw). > > I believe RICM may have a copy of the document. RCS/RI, actually. We sent it in a few years ago for the April 1st RFC fun, but did not make it (something about apes did, and frankly, it was hilarious, very deserving of the "prize". Our thing was not really funny, just rather silly). William Donzelli aw288@osfn.org From marvin at rain.org Wed Oct 10 21:50:13 2001 From: marvin at rain.org (Marvin Johnston) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:38 2005 Subject: Sigma Designs OneReel Tape References: Message-ID: <3BC508E5.A526A243@rain.org> Anyone know what this Sigma Designs OneReel Tape might be? I've had this for some time, but have never heard of the company nor seen what it is used in. From john_boffemmyer_iv at boff-net.dhs.org Wed Oct 10 22:17:36 2001 From: john_boffemmyer_iv at boff-net.dhs.org (John Boffemmyer IV) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:38 2005 Subject: ArcNet and the Pursuit of Multiple Topologies In-Reply-To: <842.684T2500T2415925optimus@canit.se> References: <5.1.0.14.2.20011010203544.009ded40@sokieserv.dhs.org> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20011010231357.00a18df0@sokieserv.dhs.org> Heh, I was die-hard in the terms of ease of use and compatibility at the time. Remember, this was many years ago when I was much younger and dumber obviously. Since then, I have become wiser and have tried to only use SCSI when I can. -John >All right, how could one be a "die-hard IDE fan"? Does that interface have any >redeeming qualities whatsoever? >And don't mention price, we've all heard that before, but the difference >wasn't quite as marked before Apple et al left the SCSI market. > >-- >En ligne avec Thor 2.6a. > >Goto: A programming tool that exists to allow structured programmers to >complain about unstructured programmers. ---------------------------------------- Founder, Lead Writer, Tech Analyst and Web Designer Boff-Net Technologies http://boff-net.dhs.org/index.html --------------------------------------- From acme_ent at bellsouth.net Wed Oct 10 23:07:33 2001 From: acme_ent at bellsouth.net (Glen Goodwin) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:38 2005 Subject: 2.88 MB floppy drive, scsi? Message-ID: <20011011040937.BDWO1484.imf14bis.bellsouth.net@thegoodw> > >What's the fuss about adding SCSI . . . In my world I consider that a > >necessity > > Then you haven't added it to PCs. =) > PS/2s which are built with SCSI in mind seem to behave well, but adding it to > IDE motherboards seldom works out for me. Hmm -- my personal experience is that, unless the machine is already junked-up with a random assortment of TV and radio tuner cards, video accelerators, SoundBlasters and DVD decoders, SCSI is easily added to a motherboard with onboard IDE ports. I've personally built a few dozen of them, using both IDE and PCI SCSI controllers. What sorts of problems are you encountering? Glen 0/0 From gwynp at artware.qc.ca Wed Oct 10 23:09:12 2001 From: gwynp at artware.qc.ca (gwynp@artware.qc.ca) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:38 2005 Subject: IDing WYSE terminal In-Reply-To: <1133.684T2150T1955715optimus@canit.se> Message-ID: On 11-Oct-2001 Iggy Drougge wrote: > It seems that WYSEs are notorious for being frail. My wyse 85 seems to be robust. I hope it doesn't die, because I *heart* the thing! > There is WYSE emulation software available, but at a cost. Linux has a wyse60 termcap entry, but that's not really what you want. -Philip From vze2mnvr at verizon.net Wed Oct 10 23:43:03 2001 From: vze2mnvr at verizon.net (Jan Koller) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:38 2005 Subject: 2.88 MB floppy drive, scsi? References: Message-ID: <3BC52357.1F4ABA09@verizon.net> We consider a PC incomplete, unless it has at least one or more SCSI controllers in it, often there for primarily external device usage. The original Plug and Play? Another good name in SCSI Controllers for use in modern PCI based systems is the BusLogic ones ( bought out by Mylex or related to them in some fashion ). They are at least as sweet as Adaptecs. One Without Reason wrote: > I've used Adaptec, Trantor, Mylex, IBM, Maxtor, DPT, and LSI Logic without > trouble in PCs. > > Peace... Sridhar > > On Wed, 10 Oct 2001, Geoff Reed wrote: > > > > > >Then you haven't added it to PCs. =) > > >PS/2s which are built with SCSI in mind seem to behave well, but adding it to > > >IDE motherboards seldom works out for me. > > > > I've yet to have any real problems using adaptec cards in pc's that have > > ide on them. > > From vze2mnvr at verizon.net Wed Oct 10 23:48:01 2001 From: vze2mnvr at verizon.net (Jan Koller) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:38 2005 Subject: 2.88 MB floppy drive, scsi? References: Message-ID: <3BC52481.A6956A1C@verizon.net> Mike, > Solve your SCSI problems with one word, Granite. What do you mean by this? Mike Ford wrote: > >>There > >>are those that dislike fooling with the SCSI 'voodoo' though. > > > >Once you get the dance steps down, and realize that you have to sacrifice > >a lamb, not a chicken... the SCSI gods stop causing problems. :-) > > Solve your SCSI problems with one word, Granite. From mythtech at Mac.com Thu Oct 11 00:05:20 2001 From: mythtech at Mac.com (Chris) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:38 2005 Subject: IDing WYSE terminal Message-ID: > I believe the daughter cards are RS422 adapter cards. We have an >Executone phone system at work and it uses what appear to be standard Wyse >terminals (just like the pic), however they are modified for 422 in order >to handle the distances from the terminal to the switch. Can I safely put the daughtercard into a stock Wyse 60 and get the same functionality? What is the max distance for RS232? Are there any other real differences? The Wyse was stationed only about 50 feet (cable wise, crow flies about 8 feet thru a wall) from the KSU. Is that close enough that a stock RS232 based Wyse can reach? My Qume system is a different story, that is about 300 feet cable wise from the KSU. (Although, it might be possible that the one in the Qume is fried, that terminal "works" it just doesn't pick up anything over the serial port... it stopped working when the phone pole in front of my building was struck by lighting, and due to poor grounding on the part of the phone company, half my phone system was fried, including the terminal... BUT... that gives me the idea of pulling the daughtercard from a 2nd one of the Qume's I have that has a bad powersupply... or was that a screen... humm, if it is a screen, maybe I can just mix and match and get one working) I would think the Executone terminal you have is fairly similar to the Isoetec I have. Executone bought Isoetec many moons ago, because Isoetec had better designs and systems. Most of the executone systems released after the buyout have been based off Isoetec designs/ideas. -chris From mythtech at Mac.com Thu Oct 11 00:12:21 2001 From: mythtech at Mac.com (Chris) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:38 2005 Subject: IDing WYSE terminal Message-ID: >It looks identical superficially to my WY60. Though yours is much whiter on >the picture. Mine is grey, much the same kind of grey as Atari STs. It is actually greyer than the picture makes it out to be. Not being familiar with the Atari you mention I can't say if it compares, but I would say it is a good shade darker than it looks. It is probably close to the "platinum" window background color of MacOS 8 and 9 (if that is something you are familiar with). It is also WELL used, and the receptionist is was in front of cleaned it daily with rubbing alcohol and lysol for about 10 years before I found out... I am sure that lightened the color quiet a bit (although, it could have been worse, it took me a while to track down why one booth's phone kept shorting out... till I caught one of the interviewers pouring water on top of it to clean it before they started their shift!). -chris From mythtech at Mac.com Thu Oct 11 00:14:58 2001 From: mythtech at Mac.com (Chris) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:38 2005 Subject: IDing WYSE terminal Message-ID: > There is WYSE emulation >software available, but at a cost. Do you know a product name? where can I get info? I can find a free wyse 50 emulator (well, sort of, there is one in an old version of ProComm+ that I have), but it doesn't seem to work with the system. Otherwise, is there someplace I can look up the spec for the protocol it uses... maybe write my own emulator. Is this public info, or would I have to buy the rights from Wyse? -chris From vze2mnvr at verizon.net Thu Oct 11 00:14:45 2001 From: vze2mnvr at verizon.net (Jan Koller) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:38 2005 Subject: 2.88 MB floppy drive, scsi? References: <"Russ Blakeman" <5.1.0.14.2.20011010141302.024e3828@mail.30below.com> Message-ID: <3BC52AC5.90EBFBA9@verizon.net> > SCSI-enabled PeeCee, I snagged my spare VAX bridgeboard w/1.44 > floppy, set the SCSI ID & slid it onto the chain... worked flawlessly. Hmmmm. I've got one of those I tried to test off an Adapted 1542CF I got the board to respond to the controller's device polling, but I didn't ever actually access the drive. I even tried loading the ASPI Manager device driver, still to no avail. Perhaps I should mount a different floppy drive to it and see if it was just a bad floppy? Had a dip switch on it but with only three switches, I figured that was probably just the ID select, and my ID was already set to be different from the controller, so I didn't bother messing with it. How did your's act. Like a floppy or a removable media hard drive? Were you able to boot from it? Roger Merchberger wrote: > Rumor has it that Pete Turnbull may have mentioned these words: > > >Teac made SCSI floppies which were used by SGI and others; one of my > >Indigos has one, and a couple of friends have them too. The floppy is a > >more-or-less standard FD-235, except that most have a motorised eject. The > >SCSI card is an add-on, albeit a very compact one. > > > >If you don't want the SCSI cards, I can use them :-) > > VAXStations use them, too -- it's basically a SCSI to MFM bridgeboard that > is really quite compatible -- when my floppy drive died on my SCSI-enabled > PeeCee, I snagged my spare VAX bridgeboard w/1.44 floppy, set the SCSI ID & > slid it onto the chain... worked flawlessly. > > I doubt the bridgeboard would work for a 2.88Meg floppy, tho -- dunno if > the "BIOS" (for lack of a better term) supports that density as it didn't > exist until well after the board was built. > > I wouldn't mind having a spare, either -- they're tough to find... > > HTH, > Roger "Merch" Merchberger From mythtech at Mac.com Thu Oct 11 00:16:41 2001 From: mythtech at Mac.com (Chris) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:38 2005 Subject: IDing WYSE terminal Message-ID: >Linux has a wyse60 termcap entry, but that's not really what you want. Ok... I am feeling SOOO rank amature here. What is a termcap, and why would I not want it? (I must admit, it is refreshing to be in a group of people where I am probably the LEAST knowledgable) -chris From acme_ent at bellsouth.net Wed Oct 10 23:07:33 2001 From: acme_ent at bellsouth.net (Glen Goodwin) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:38 2005 Subject: 2.88 MB floppy drive, scsi? Message-ID: <20011011040937.BDWO1484.imf14bis.bellsouth.net@thegoodw> > >What's the fuss about adding SCSI . . . In my world I consider that a > >necessity > > Then you haven't added it to PCs. =) > PS/2s which are built with SCSI in mind seem to behave well, but adding it to > IDE motherboards seldom works out for me. Hmm -- my personal experience is that, unless the machine is already junked-up with a random assortment of TV and radio tuner cards, video accelerators, SoundBlasters and DVD decoders, SCSI is easily added to a motherboard with onboard IDE ports. I've personally built a few dozen of them, using both IDE and PCI SCSI controllers. What sorts of problems are you encountering? Glen 0/0 From univac2 at earthlink.net Thu Oct 11 00:51:35 2001 From: univac2 at earthlink.net (Owen Robertson) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:38 2005 Subject: IDing WYSE terminal In-Reply-To: Message-ID: If you need a Wyse 60 emulator, I have one sitting in front of me right now. I bought it about a week ago, I think the thrift shop has another copy. If so, I can get it for you. If not I can probably let you have this one. on 10/11/01 12:14 AM, Chris at mythtech@Mac.com wrote: >> There is WYSE emulation >> software available, but at a cost. > > Do you know a product name? where can I get info? I can find a free wyse > 50 emulator (well, sort of, there is one in an old version of ProComm+ > that I have), but it doesn't seem to work with the system. > > Otherwise, is there someplace I can look up the spec for the protocol it > uses... maybe write my own emulator. Is this public info, or would I have > to buy the rights from Wyse? > > -chris > > > From andyh-rayleigh at nutshell.net Thu Oct 11 01:06:56 2001 From: andyh-rayleigh at nutshell.net (Andy Holt) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:38 2005 Subject: 2.88 MB floppy drive, scsi? In-Reply-To: <3BC52AC5.90EBFBA9@verizon.net> Message-ID: <000c01c1521a$ee8670e0$4d4d2c0a@atx> > Hmmmm. I've got one of those I tried to test off an Adapted 1542CF > That may explain some problems: The 1540, 1540A, and 1540B (and the correspondong 1542 models and the EISA version (174X) where they existed) were excellent devices - the CF had a well-deserved reputation of being oversensitive about termination; this was especially true of the version with the "SCSI-2" connector rather than the Centronics-type. Andy From dec.parts at verizon.net Thu Oct 11 01:13:20 2001 From: dec.parts at verizon.net (Info from LSI) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:38 2005 Subject: Avoiding SCSI Problems Message-ID: <3BC53880.5552@verizon.net> Jeff, I have a data file on SCSI that I'll try to access sometime soon that may help you avoid problems that can arise when integrating SCSI. I had a link to it, but so much time had passed, it didn't seem to be there anymore, but I had also downloaded and saved it, just not on this system and drive. Sincerely, Bennett > I agree, as any machine I spend any kind of time with > generally has it or has it added, whether Mac, PC, Amiga or whatever. > Even my laptop and PS/2 portable have SCSI adapters installed. There > are those that dislike fooling with the SCSI 'voodoo' though. It can > be a pain at times. > Jeff From dpeschel at eskimo.com Thu Oct 11 02:34:44 2001 From: dpeschel at eskimo.com (Derek Peschel) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:38 2005 Subject: IDing WYSE terminal In-Reply-To: ; from mythtech@Mac.com on Thu, Oct 11, 2001 at 01:16:41AM -0400 References: Message-ID: <20011011003444.A6838@eskimo.eskimo.com> On Thu, Oct 11, 2001 at 01:16:41AM -0400, Chris wrote: > >Linux has a wyse60 termcap entry, but that's not really what you want. > > Ok... I am feeling SOOO rank amature here. What is a termcap, and why > would I not want it? (I must admit, it is refreshing to be in a group of > people where I am probably the LEAST knowledgable) Hi Chris. I don't think I said hello yet (I help run the list). UNIX systems have a library of routines (collectively called "curses") for sending commands to an idealized terminal, and a database format (called "termcap", for "terminal capabilities") which contains entries for various terminal types. Each entry describes the characters to send to carry out the various commands on the actual terminal. And then there's terminfo (another database format, more flexible than termcap, but in- compatible). It would help you if you wanted to hook up your Wyse in place of another brand of terminal, but what you want (I guess) is for another terminal -- or computer -- to act like your Wyse. -- Derek From hansp at aconit.org Thu Oct 11 02:53:54 2001 From: hansp at aconit.org (Hans B Pufal) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:38 2005 Subject: Looking for : IBM 5110 Serial IO adapter software Message-ID: <3BC55012.6000407@aconit.org> We have an IBM 5110 with a serial adapter and have recently verified that the tape drive is operational. We are, however, missing the software cartridge for the serial adapter. Does anyone have a copy who would be willing to make a copy? We can supply a blank cartridge and pay shipping costs. -- HBP From mikeford at socal.rr.com Thu Oct 11 02:40:34 2001 From: mikeford at socal.rr.com (Mike Ford) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:38 2005 Subject: ArcNet and the Pursuit of Multiple Topologies In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20011010231357.00a18df0@sokieserv.dhs.org> References: <842.684T2500T2415925optimus@canit.se> <5.1.0.14.2.20011010203544.009ded40@sokieserv.dhs.org> Message-ID: >Heh, I was die-hard in the terms of ease of use and compatibility at the >time. Remember, this was many years ago when I was much younger and dumber >obviously. Since then, I have become wiser and have tried to only use SCSI >when I can. Funny I used to be die hard SCSI, but now with ATA 100 IDE raid controllers cheaper than the difference in cost between IDE and SCSI drives, I just don't even think about SCSI except for special applications like maybe a server. From Simon.Hardy at hemel-hempstead.sema.slb.com Thu Oct 11 03:30:08 2001 From: Simon.Hardy at hemel-hempstead.sema.slb.com (HARDY, Simon) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:38 2005 Subject: Research Machines Information Message-ID: <579AC59C515DD211B38B00A0C9B22928B79DC0@HEMESC.sema.co.uk> Tony, The machine powers up okay.....but the keyboard repeats (a bit like local echo). If I press a key, I get two of the same character on the screen. One appears when the key is pressed, and the other when it is released. Any ideas ? Rgds Simon -----Original Message----- From: ard@p850ug1.demon.co.uk [mailto:ard@p850ug1.demon.co.uk] Sent: 11 October 2001 00:25 To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org Subject: Re: Research Machines Information > > Hi, > > I am looking for any information or resources relating to the UK based > Research Machines 380Z and 480Z products. These were Z80 based micros, > mainly used in UK schools during the mid-eighties. I have both machines, and documentation on them. Including schematics for the 380Z (CPU, memory, text video, hi-res video, floppy controller) and the 480Z (machine only, but including the option board). > > I have a 480Z in my collection, but it isn't 100% operational and I really > need service information to enable me to track the faulty component.....Can I don't have the service manual, but I do have the hardware manual. It includes schematics. Alas my manual was mis-assembled by RML, so some pages are missing and others repeated, but the scheamtics _are_ all there and readable. What is the fault? -tony ___________________________________________________________________________ This email is confidential and intended solely for the use of the individual to whom it is addressed. Any views or opinions presented are solely those of the author and do not necessarily represent those of SchlumbergerSema. If you are not the intended recipient, be advised that you have received this email in error and that any use, dissemination, forwarding, printing, or copying of this email is strictly prohibited. If you have received this email in error please notify the SchlumbergerSema Helpdesk by telephone on +44 (0) 121 627 5600. ___________________________________________________________________________ From mikeford at socal.rr.com Thu Oct 11 03:58:09 2001 From: mikeford at socal.rr.com (Mike Ford) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:39 2005 Subject: 2.88 MB floppy drive, scsi? In-Reply-To: <3BC52481.A6956A1C@verizon.net> References: Message-ID: >Mike, > >> Solve your SCSI problems with one word, Granite. > > What do you mean by this? http://www.scsipro.com/ Granite Digital makes the best cables etc. If you use them most SCSI weirdness will never effect you. From jhellige at earthlink.net Thu Oct 11 04:03:48 2001 From: jhellige at earthlink.net (Jeff Hellige) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:39 2005 Subject: Avoiding SCSI Problems In-Reply-To: <3BC53880.5552@verizon.net> References: <3BC53880.5552@verizon.net> Message-ID: > I have a data file on SCSI that I'll try to access >sometime soon that may help you avoid problems that >can arise when integrating SCSI. I had a link to it, >but so much time had passed, it didn't seem to be there >anymore, but I had also downloaded and saved it, just >not on this system and drive. Actually, I don't have many problems myself, outside of the occasional questionable cable since I've gotten them from many different sources over the years and some are of better quality than others. I was just stating one of the reasons people state for avoiding using SCSI. Some implementations, such as that on the Amiga 3000, are quirkier than others though. Jeff -- Home of the TRS-80 Model 2000 FAQ File http://www.cchaven.com http://www.geocities.com/siliconvalley/lakes/6757 From dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com Thu Oct 11 06:19:57 2001 From: dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com (Douglas Quebbeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:39 2005 Subject: IDing WYSE terminal Message-ID: <7A9BACCEF0171D4FB77019F5104CDD372257C3@jeffserver.tegjeff.com> > >Post a digital pic on your webpage so we can look 'n' see? > > K.. but it will have to wait until tomorrow (I have to bring my camera in > to work). > > Any particular shots you want? Front, Sides, Insides... posing in a > nightie? The Wyse 50 looks good in a fedora; the Wyse 100 prefers a beret... -dq From dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com Thu Oct 11 06:25:52 2001 From: dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com (Douglas Quebbeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:39 2005 Subject: IDing WYSE terminal Message-ID: <7A9BACCEF0171D4FB77019F5104CDD372257C4@jeffserver.tegjeff.com> > Ok... pics are up (sorry, no risque terminal pics). That's ok, my tastes run to hats, anyway... > Go to > > There are two terms there. One is a Wyse something (maybe a > 60 based on pics I just saw on ebay). The Wyse does indeed look like a 60, but I think the 55 and 35 look similar. Had it been a 50 or a 100, it would have been a more obvious identification. Can you get it into Setup mode? There may be a clue there... it's something like Function-Setup, at least, it is on the 50... -dq From dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com Thu Oct 11 06:32:21 2001 From: dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com (Douglas Quebbeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:39 2005 Subject: IDing WYSE terminal Message-ID: <7A9BACCEF0171D4FB77019F5104CDD372257C5@jeffserver.tegjeff.com> > >Post a digital pic on your webpage so we can look 'n' see? > > Ok... pics are up (sorry, no risque terminal pics). > > Go to Ok... It's a Wyse 60, for sure... here's a link to some pics: http://www.quasaronlinestore.com/Merchant2/merchant.mv?Screen=CTGY&Store_Code= QSI&Category_Code=WT-R Watch out, that URL will probably get munged by Outlook... Regards, -dq From dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com Thu Oct 11 06:34:12 2001 From: dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com (Douglas Quebbeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:39 2005 Subject: ArcNet and the Pursuit of Multiple Topologies Message-ID: <7A9BACCEF0171D4FB77019F5104CDD372257C6@jeffserver.tegjeff.com> > By the way -- how about DVD's via pneumatic tube? > Now THAT is a high-bandwidth medium. I can sell you > some pneumatic tube equipment too :) The newer plastic stuff, or the cool-looking old brass stuff? Up until about '87, there was a local metal scrap firm that still used the tubes, all brass, *very* cool. -dq From dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com Thu Oct 11 06:38:50 2001 From: dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com (Douglas Quebbeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:39 2005 Subject: IDing WYSE terminal Message-ID: <7A9BACCEF0171D4FB77019F5104CDD372257C7@jeffserver.tegjeff.com> > On October 11, Iggy Drougge wrote: > > It seems that WYSEs are notorious for being frail. There is WYSE emulation > > software available, but at a cost. > > Interesting...I've had a few over the years, and have found them to > be nearly indestructible. Guess I got lucky! :-) Actually, my experience (with the steel-cabineted 100 and the plastic 50) has been like yours... they're rock-solid terminals, built to take a lot of punishment, which they tend to get in the places where they're used. Regards, -dq From chunpai at public.glptt.gx.cn Thu Oct 11 06:48:37 2001 From: chunpai at public.glptt.gx.cn (chunpai@public.glptt.gx.cn) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:39 2005 Subject: Stable Temperature Shoes Message-ID: <200110111148.ADU42637@md1.gx163.net> Dear sir/madm, We can supply stable temperature shoes. This is a sort of high-tech new products. This shoe was made used a sort of high-tech material not used any battery, it can intelligentize to keep stable temperature 30¡æ in the shoe. If you are interest in this sort of high-tech warm shoes, please contact us ASAP. 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Mr. Long Tan ( Satrap ) ============================================================== GUILIN LINGUI SHENGPING XIAOXUE BAMBOO & WOOD MANUFACTORY ( LINGUI OFFICE OF GUILIN TEXTILES IMPORTS/EXPORTS CORP. ) Address: No. 229 Rongshan Road, Lingui, Guilin, Guangxi, China Tel: +86-773-5592687 Fax: +86-773-5592687 E-mail: chunpai@public.glptt.gx.cn Web Site: www.chunpai.com/first-english.htm Postalcode: 541100 --------------------------------------------------------------- žÃÓÊŒþÓÉ¡¶œð·æÓÊŒþȺ·¢ 2.0¡··¢ËÍ£¬ÓÊŒþÄÚÈÝÓëÈíŒþ×÷ÕßÎÞ¹Ø --------------------------------------------------------------- œð·æÈíŒþ£¬ÖµµÃÐÅÀµµÄÈíŒþ http://www.jinfengnet.com From cmurillo at emtelsa.multi.net.co Thu Oct 11 06:29:54 2001 From: cmurillo at emtelsa.multi.net.co (Carlos Murillo) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:39 2005 Subject: IDing WYSE terminal In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <3.0.2.32.20011011072954.01d2a7e4@obregon.multi.net.co> In Unix systems, the file /etc/termcap is a text file containing a "database" of terminals, with the definitions of the escape sequences and so on. If you do setenv TERM tvi920 or set TERM=vt100 export TERM depending on your shell, and tvi920 (or vt100) is a valid entry in your /etc/termcap, then the programs that need to use escape sequences will work. Otherwise you're stuck with a 'dumb' mode terminal. It is a fun file to hack to produce special video/audio effects on the terminals of unsuspecting users :-) . At 01:16 AM 10/11/01 -0400, you wrote: >>Linux has a wyse60 termcap entry, but that's not really what you want. > >Ok... I am feeling SOOO rank amature here. What is a termcap, and why >would I not want it? (I must admit, it is refreshing to be in a group of >people where I am probably the LEAST knowledgable) > >-chris > > -------------------------------------------------------------- Carlos E. Murillo-Sanchez carlos_murillo@nospammers.ieee.org From DAW at yalepress3.unipress.yale.edu Thu Oct 11 08:59:24 2001 From: DAW at yalepress3.unipress.yale.edu (David Woyciesjes) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:39 2005 Subject: Avoiding SCSI Problems Message-ID: <9011A52E011ED311B4280004AC1BA61501467160@yalepress3.unipress.yale.edu> Bennett --- Well if you can find the file, I (and I'm sure others) would like to read it... --- David A Woyciesjes --- C & IS Support Specialist --- Yale University Press --- mailto:david.woyciesjes@yale.edu --- (203) 432-0953 --- ICQ # - 905818 ! -----Original Message----- ! From: Jeff Hellige [mailto:jhellige@earthlink.net] ! Sent: Thursday, October 11, 2001 5:04 AM ! To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org ! Subject: Re: Avoiding SCSI Problems ! ! ! > I have a data file on SCSI that I'll try to access ! >sometime soon that may help you avoid problems that ! >can arise when integrating SCSI. I had a link to it, ! >but so much time had passed, it didn't seem to be there ! >anymore, but I had also downloaded and saved it, just ! >not on this system and drive. ! ! Actually, I don't have many problems myself, outside of the ! occasional questionable cable since I've gotten them from many ! different sources over the years and some are of better quality than ! others. I was just stating one of the reasons people state for ! avoiding using SCSI. Some implementations, such as that on the Amiga ! 3000, are quirkier than others though. ! ! Jeff ! -- ! Home of the TRS-80 Model 2000 FAQ File ! http://www.cchaven.com ! http://www.geocities.com/siliconvalley/lakes/6757 ! From mythtech at Mac.com Thu Oct 11 09:32:46 2001 From: mythtech at Mac.com (Chris) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:39 2005 Subject: 2.88 MB floppy drive, scsi? Message-ID: >>> Solve your SCSI problems with one word, Granite. >> >> What do you mean by this? > >http://www.scsipro.com/ > >Granite Digital makes the best cables etc. If you use them most SCSI >weirdness will never effect you. ROFL... I was taking it to mean smash it with a big heavy rock. :-) -chris From mythtech at Mac.com Thu Oct 11 09:41:15 2001 From: mythtech at Mac.com (Chris) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:39 2005 Subject: IDing WYSE terminal Message-ID: >The Wyse does indeed look like a 60, but I think the 55 and 35 >look similar. Had it been a 50 or a 100, it would have been a >more obvious identification. I have a wyse 50 (I know it is, cause the case says so). I have tried it in place of this dead one, and it didn't work. I don't know how different each model is from one another, but maybe since the 50 didn't work, I can rule out a 55? >Can you get it into Setup mode? There may be a clue there... >it's something like Function-Setup, at least, it is on the 50... The unit powers up and beeps like it should, but the screen doesn't charge, so I can't see anything in the setup. -chris From optimus at canit.se Thu Oct 11 10:06:33 2001 From: optimus at canit.se (Iggy Drougge) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:39 2005 Subject: Sigma Designs OneReel Tape In-Reply-To: <3BC508E5.A526A243@rain.org> Message-ID: <544.684T1650T9664907optimus@canit.se> Marvin Johnston skrev: >Anyone know what this Sigma Designs OneReel Tape might be? I've had this >for some time, but have never heard of the company nor seen what it is >used in. I know the company for their monitors. I've got two Sigma Designs Pageview GS portrait greyscale monitors. They're great. They also made on of the most odd contraptions ever, a SCSI colour monitor. -- En ligne avec Thor 2.6a. There are two major products that come from Berkeley: LSD and UNIX. We don't believe this to be a coincidence. -- Jeremy S. Anderson From optimus at canit.se Thu Oct 11 10:15:47 2001 From: optimus at canit.se (Iggy Drougge) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:39 2005 Subject: IDing WYSE terminal In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <754.684T2350T9756447optimus@canit.se> Chris skrev: >> There is WYSE emulation >>software available, but at a cost. >Do you know a product name? where can I get info? I can find a free wyse >50 emulator (well, sort of, there is one in an old version of ProComm+ >that I have), but it doesn't seem to work with the system. Look at the WYSE info file at http://www.cs.utk.edu/~shuford/terminal_index.html. >Otherwise, is there someplace I can look up the spec for the protocol it >uses... maybe write my own emulator. Is this public info, or would I have >to buy the rights from Wyse? There are termcaps and terminfo files aplenty. What exactly would you need to emulate? -- En ligne avec Thor 2.6a. "Wer nichts zu sagen hat, sagt es auf Englisch." (-Walter Kr?mer, bez?gl. Anglizismen.) From optimus at canit.se Thu Oct 11 10:04:22 2001 From: optimus at canit.se (Iggy Drougge) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:39 2005 Subject: IDing WYSE terminal In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <837.684T1100T9644505optimus@canit.se> gwynp skrev: >On 11-Oct-2001 Iggy Drougge wrote: >> It seems that WYSEs are notorious for being frail. >My wyse 85 seems to be robust. I hope it doesn't die, because I *heart* >the thing! My WY60 works fine, too, but it seems that we've been lucky, compared to what you might find in the big chunk of WYSE messages at http://www.cs.utk.edu/~shuford/terminal_index.html. >> There is WYSE emulation software available, but at a cost. >Linux has a wyse60 termcap entry, but that's not really what you want. So has NetBSD. It doesn't bother about such things as charset mappings. -- En ligne avec Thor 2.6a. We have support for the PMAGC-B's on pmax right? That is a PixelVision based card right? I see Bt 463, that chip looks bigger than the 21164! Just looking at it makes me want to write an Xserver! Chris Tribo, NetBSD/pmax From optimus at canit.se Thu Oct 11 10:07:58 2001 From: optimus at canit.se (Iggy Drougge) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:39 2005 Subject: ArcNet and the Pursuit of Multiple Topologies In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20011010231357.00a18df0@sokieserv.dhs.org> Message-ID: <352.684T2900T9676413optimus@canit.se> John Boffemmyer IV skrev: >Heh, I was die-hard in the terms of ease of use and compatibility at the >time. Remember, this was many years ago when I was much younger and dumber >obviously. Since then, I have become wiser and have tried to only use SCSI >when I can. But in what way is SCSI less compatible or easy to use? -- En ligne avec Thor 2.6a. From mythtech at Mac.com Thu Oct 11 09:54:31 2001 From: mythtech at Mac.com (Chris) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:39 2005 Subject: IDing WYSE terminal Message-ID: Thank you everyone for your help. It looks like from pictures I am able to find (or was sent links to) that it is indeed a Wyse 60. I think the tell tale part is the contrast slider on the front bottom right of the screen (and the matching ID plate on the left side). So now I am on the hunt for a cheap replacement (looks like ebay has them around $40), where I will open it, and see if the daughter card is installed, if not, I will transfer mine. I also have a lead on a wyse 60 emulator to keep on the back burner for when my replacement terminal dies too. Alas, I am still stuck on the Qume one, but at least I know what Qume it is, and that one isn't half as important to me, as I can interface with that phone system thru a programmers back door running an old copy of ProComm Plus, so if the terminal never gets replaced, the receptionist just has nothing cool to look at during the day. And the #1 thing I learned from all this... when taking digital pictures, don't put your $2000 DV Camcorder down on something without verifying that it is stable and won't tip over (I caught the camera mid fall thankfully... now I am out looking for the cheapest, crappy digital camera I can find, so I can return my good camcorder to its bag and use it only when shooting movies like it was intended) -chris From optimus at canit.se Thu Oct 11 10:23:37 2001 From: optimus at canit.se (Iggy Drougge) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:39 2005 Subject: Avoiding SCSI Problems In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <1336.684T1850T9835203optimus@canit.se> Jeff Hellige skrev: > Actually, I don't have many problems myself, outside of the >occasional questionable cable since I've gotten them from many >different sources over the years and some are of better quality than >others. I was just stating one of the reasons people state for >avoiding using SCSI. Some implementations, such as that on the Amiga >3000, are quirkier than others though. The one problem I've encountered with the A3000 SCSI is that it doesn't autodetect and automount removable devices (more specifically, the SyQuest, CDs work fine) when they are inserted. Here are some programs for fiddling with the NVRAM settings for the A3000 SCSI. Haven't tried them yet: SCSIPrefsMUI.lha 13231 ---arwed 20-Apr-01 21:06:09 : http://ftp.sunet.se/pub/aminet/util/misc/SCSIPrefsMUI.lha SCSI-Prefs.lha 7561 ---arwed 20-Apr-01 21:14:39 : http://ftp.sunet.se/pub/aminet/disk/misc/SCSI-Prefs.lha And here's the program I use for manually mounting the SyQuest: SCSIMounter203.lha 32047 ---arwed 20-Apr-01 21:15:08 : http://ftp.sunet.se/pub/aminet/disk/misc/SCSIMounter203.lha That one's integrated in OS 3.5 and forth, though. -- En ligne avec Thor 2.6a. You can't prove anything about a program written in C or FORTRAN. It's really just Peek and Poke with some syntactic sugar. Bill Joy From optimus at canit.se Thu Oct 11 10:11:49 2001 From: optimus at canit.se (Iggy Drougge) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:39 2005 Subject: 2.88 MB floppy drive, scsi? In-Reply-To: <20011011040937.BDWO1484.imf14bis.bellsouth.net@thegoodw> Message-ID: <1025.684T2450T9715583optimus@canit.se> Glen Goodwin skrev: >Hmm -- my personal experience is that, unless the machine is already >junked-up with a random assortment of TV and radio tuner cards, video >accelerators, SoundBlasters and DVD decoders, SCSI is easily added to a >motherboard with onboard IDE ports. I've personally built a few dozen of >them, using both IDE and PCI SCSI controllers. >What sorts of problems are you encountering? You're welcome to try to sort out our pile of SCSI cards which so far haven't worked in our OpenBSD machine. We don't use PCI cards, though (we sold that one, since we wouldn't use the SCSI for anything else than tapestreamers and so forth). Besides, SCSI integration into PC systems is really clumsy. Some cards aren't bootable, and they don't behave like the IDE hard drives. They have their own little BIOSes and things which I'm not used to from other systems. In fact, non-PC systems tend to see IDE as a kind of bastard SCSI instead. -- En ligne avec Thor 2.6a. A conservative is a worshipper of dead radicals. From mythtech at Mac.com Thu Oct 11 09:59:40 2001 From: mythtech at Mac.com (Chris) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:39 2005 Subject: Looking for : IBM 5110 Serial IO adapter software Message-ID: >We have an IBM 5110 with a serial adapter and have recently verified >that the tape drive is operational. We are, however, missing the >software cartridge for the serial adapter. > >Does anyone have a copy who would be willing to make a copy? We can >supply a blank cartridge and pay shipping costs. I have a 5110 tucked away in a corner (I was actually just thinking about it yesterday). I don't know if I have the tape you are looking for, but if you tell me what I should look for, I can check. Are the 5110's of any collector value (not that I would ever part with mine, but I am curious if it is just me that wants to keep it, or if it is actually a valued machine). Mine has this big dual 8" floppy drive box. I *THINK* it might also have a 5mb hard drive built into the floppy box, but I don't remember (the thing has been shut down and in storage for about 12 or 13 years... so it may not work anymore) -chris From mythtech at Mac.com Thu Oct 11 10:03:11 2001 From: mythtech at Mac.com (Chris) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:39 2005 Subject: Research Machines Information Message-ID: >the keyboard repeats (a bit like local >echo). If I press a key, I get two of the same character on the screen. One >appears when the key is pressed, and the other when it is released. I have seen this happen MANY MANY times with PC keyboards, so maybe my findings apply. In every instance that I have found it, it is beacuse someone spilled either soda or coffee into the keyboard, and the pads were sticking. The key would register when pressed, and then when released, the pad wouldn't pop up right away, instead it would "peel" up, and cause a 2nd (or sometimes a 3rd if it was sticky enough) registration. Opening the keyboard and washing with alcohol or contact cleaner has always fixed it for me. -chris From mythtech at Mac.com Thu Oct 11 10:06:17 2001 From: mythtech at Mac.com (Chris) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:39 2005 Subject: IDing WYSE terminal Message-ID: >Hi Chris. I don't think I said hello yet (I help run the list). Hello. >UNIX systems have a library of routines (collectively called "curses") >for sending commands to an idealized terminal, and a database format >(called "termcap", for "terminal capabilities") which contains entries >for various terminal types. Each entry describes the characters to send >to carry out the various commands on the actual terminal. And then there's >terminfo (another database format, more flexible than termcap, but in- >compatible). Makes sense. Sorry, my *nix is limited. I used an old AT&T unix machine many many years ago (running System V), but that was limited to "user" knowledge. I knew how to turn it on, and start up the software I needed to use. I have recently begun to play with linux, but havent had much time to really sit down and learn it (althought that will probably change, since I need to upgrade my web server, and Linux with Apache seems like a good option) >It would help you if you wanted to hook up your Wyse in place of another >brand of terminal, but what you want (I guess) is for another terminal -- >or computer -- to act like your Wyse. Correct. I need to connect something that the system will think is a Wyse 60. -chris From Simon.Hardy at hemel-hempstead.sema.slb.com Thu Oct 11 11:04:24 2001 From: Simon.Hardy at hemel-hempstead.sema.slb.com (HARDY, Simon) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:39 2005 Subject: Research Machines Information Message-ID: <579AC59C515DD211B38B00A0C9B22928B79DDE@HEMESC.sema.co.uk> Chris, Thanks for the suggestion...But already looked at that, the keyboard is the old two metal contacts (2mm apart) on the board and a conductive surface under the key type.... No sign of spillage or delay in key returning to normal... I suspect a component fault, but have no idea where to look without a manual... Desperately seeking any 480z or 380z manuals or other information, online, original or photocopy. Rgds Simon -----Original Message----- From: Chris [mailto:mythtech@Mac.com] Sent: 11 October 2001 16:03 To: Classic Computer Subject: RE: Research Machines Information >the keyboard repeats (a bit like local >echo). If I press a key, I get two of the same character on the screen. One >appears when the key is pressed, and the other when it is released. I have seen this happen MANY MANY times with PC keyboards, so maybe my findings apply. In every instance that I have found it, it is beacuse someone spilled either soda or coffee into the keyboard, and the pads were sticking. The key would register when pressed, and then when released, the pad wouldn't pop up right away, instead it would "peel" up, and cause a 2nd (or sometimes a 3rd if it was sticky enough) registration. Opening the keyboard and washing with alcohol or contact cleaner has always fixed it for me. -chris ___________________________________________________________________________ This email is confidential and intended solely for the use of the individual to whom it is addressed. Any views or opinions presented are solely those of the author and do not necessarily represent those of SchlumbergerSema. If you are not the intended recipient, be advised that you have received this email in error and that any use, dissemination, forwarding, printing, or copying of this email is strictly prohibited. If you have received this email in error please notify the SchlumbergerSema Helpdesk by telephone on +44 (0) 121 627 5600. ___________________________________________________________________________ From jhellige at earthlink.net Thu Oct 11 10:36:36 2001 From: jhellige at earthlink.net (Jeff Hellige) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:39 2005 Subject: Avoiding SCSI Problems In-Reply-To: <1336.684T1850T9835203optimus@canit.se> References: <1336.684T1850T9835203optimus@canit.se> Message-ID: <01Oct11.134751edt.119138@gateway.mediacen.navy.mil> >The one problem I've encountered with the A3000 SCSI is that it doesn't >autodetect and automount removable devices (more specifically, the SyQuest, >CDs work fine) when they are inserted. My A3000 insists on a properly terminated device being present on the external connector at all times, whether the device is powered on or not. To me, this suggests that the mainboard isn't properly terminated. This isn't a big problem since I generally have a CD-ROM (Apple CD-600) plugged up to it. My previous A3000 was even pickier, which was why I installed a DKB Rapidfire SCSI-2 board. The A3000's SCSI quirks are fairly well documented on the web though. I've yet to try a removable drive other than a CD, so I'll have to plug one of my MO's up to it and see how it reacts. >Here are some programs for fiddling with the NVRAM settings for the A3000 >SCSI. Haven't tried them yet: Yes, I've been using SCSIprefs for a number of years. It's quite handy. Jeff -- Home of the TRS-80 Model 2000 FAQ File http://www.cchaven.com http://www.geocities.com/siliconvalley/lakes/6757 From Antonio.Carlini at riverstonenet.com Thu Oct 11 12:59:48 2001 From: Antonio.Carlini at riverstonenet.com (Carlini, Antonio) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:39 2005 Subject: Research Machines Information Message-ID: <3820E2042B6ED5118DC200D0B78EDC4706618E@exc-reo1> > HARDY, Simon wrote: > >Desperately seeking any 480z or 380z manuals or >other information, online, >original or photocopy. I have the 380Z manuals and I can (and will!) scan them at some stage - although I have a couple of weeks worth of stuff in the queue right now. Having said that, I'm not sure how much help the 380Z manuals will be if you have a 480Z. (I'm not saying they won't be useful ... just that the 380Z and 480Z look quite different to me!) Antonio From vze2mnvr at verizon.net Thu Oct 11 13:33:29 2001 From: vze2mnvr at verizon.net (Jan Koller) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:39 2005 Subject: 2.88 MB floppy drive, scsi? References: Message-ID: <3BC5E5F9.BED9B1C6@verizon.net> I'll have to check that out. As I understood it, the best cabling to use, at least around the SCSI-2 era, was twisted pair, alternate lay cabling, meeting the impedence recommendations for the SCSI-2 specification. You generally do pretty good with Belden, 3M, etc. If one uses no name produced in china products, one gets what one deserves. Mike Ford wrote: > >Mike, > > > >> Solve your SCSI problems with one word, Granite. > > > > What do you mean by this? > > http://www.scsipro.com/ > > Granite Digital makes the best cables etc. If you use them most SCSI > weirdness will never effect you. From vze2mnvr at verizon.net Thu Oct 11 13:38:28 2001 From: vze2mnvr at verizon.net (Jan Koller) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:39 2005 Subject: 2.88 MB floppy drive, scsi? References: <0110091250010B.04845@simon> Message-ID: <3BC5E724.4181B37D@verizon.net> Mike, If you're not going to use them, or they have more than you'll be using, I could use at least a couple ( if they're 1" form factor and 50 pin SCSI connector ). What's the contact info to where these are located? What did they want for them? And were you saying they came with controller cards? Mike Ford wrote: > I've been looking for some 2.88 non-IBM PS/2 floppy drives, and I found > some, but the guy says they are SCSI. Is that nuts or what? > > TEAC FD-235 J 5670-U W/SCSI Card > TEAC FD-235 J 5670-U W/SCSI Card > TEAC FD-235 J 610 W/SCSI Card > > Some of the HP/Apollo 725/50 computers I found recently had SCSI floppies, > but it looked like the SCSI part might be detachable. I wonder if I should > bother getting the above drives to work in a PC, which I would have to fuss > around adding SCSI to? From vze2mnvr at verizon.net Thu Oct 11 13:46:06 2001 From: vze2mnvr at verizon.net (Jan Koller) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:39 2005 Subject: 2.88 MB floppy drive, scsi? References: <000c01c1521a$ee8670e0$4d4d2c0a@atx> Message-ID: <3BC5E8EE.1A740FE4@verizon.net> Hi Andy, The 1542CF I was using to test with was the Centronics connector version, but I was coming off the 50 pin header anyway. Do you think I should try again with one of the BusLogics, or wait till I reconfigure one of my test boxes to an Adaptec 2940AU ? Andy Holt wrote: > > Hmmmm. I've got one of those I tried to test off an Adapted 1542CF > > > That may explain some problems: The 1540, 1540A, and 1540B (and the > correspondong 1542 models and the EISA version (174X) where they existed) > were excellent devices - the CF had a well-deserved reputation of being > oversensitive about termination; this was especially true of the version > with the "SCSI-2" connector rather than the Centronics-type. > > Andy From mikeford at socal.rr.com Thu Oct 11 14:06:13 2001 From: mikeford at socal.rr.com (Mike Ford) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:39 2005 Subject: Sigma Designs OneReel Tape In-Reply-To: <544.684T1650T9664907optimus@canit.se> References: <3BC508E5.A526A243@rain.org> Message-ID: >Marvin Johnston skrev: > >>Anyone know what this Sigma Designs OneReel Tape might be? I've had this >>for some time, but have never heard of the company nor seen what it is >>used in. > >I know the company for their monitors. I've got two Sigma Designs Pageview GS >portrait greyscale monitors. They're great. They also made on of the most odd >contraptions ever, a SCSI colour monitor. The company is still around, with two parts, perhaps no longer connected. Sigma Designs that makes high end video stuff in Hollywood, and a monitor support company in Garden Grove, CA. I have a pair of "new" Labview 1600x1200 monitors. From mikeford at socal.rr.com Thu Oct 11 14:09:35 2001 From: mikeford at socal.rr.com (Mike Ford) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:39 2005 Subject: ArcNet and the Pursuit of Multiple Topologies In-Reply-To: <352.684T2900T9676413optimus@canit.se> References: <5.1.0.14.2.20011010231357.00a18df0@sokieserv.dhs.org> Message-ID: >John Boffemmyer IV skrev: > >>Heh, I was die-hard in the terms of ease of use and compatibility at the >>time. Remember, this was many years ago when I was much younger and dumber >>obviously. Since then, I have become wiser and have tried to only use SCSI >>when I can. > >But in what way is SCSI less compatible or easy to use? It is not compatible with my Master Card, fast IDE 40 GB IBM drive = $110, same thing in SCSI is $250, same thing in 1394 is $200. From mikeford at socal.rr.com Thu Oct 11 14:07:21 2001 From: mikeford at socal.rr.com (Mike Ford) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:39 2005 Subject: IDing WYSE terminal In-Reply-To: <837.684T1100T9644505optimus@canit.se> References: Message-ID: >My WY60 works fine, too, but it seems that we've been lucky, compared to what >you might find in the big chunk of WYSE messages at >http://www.cs.utk.edu/~shuford/terminal_index.html. I was sure I had a pair of WYSE 60 terminals, but I dug one out last night and its a 160, about 5 years newer. From foo at siconic.com Thu Oct 11 14:08:42 2001 From: foo at siconic.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:39 2005 Subject: Looking for : IBM 5110 Serial IO adapter software In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Thu, 11 Oct 2001, Chris wrote: > Are the 5110's of any collector value (not that I would ever part with > mine, but I am curious if it is just me that wants to keep it, or if > it is actually a valued machine). Mine has this big dual 8" floppy > drive box. I *THINK* it might also have a 5mb hard drive built into > the floppy box, but I don't remember (the thing has been shut down and > in storage for about 12 or 13 years... so it may not work anymore) First of all, EVERY thing has collector value to someone. To answer your question specifically, the IBM 5100 series of machine is highly collectable due to it being a contender for the first portable computer, and it was produced in 1975. Also note that IBM PC used the same model number series. The 5110 and 5120 were both portables like the 5100, with added features. We researched it before but I forgot what the 5130 is. The 5140 is the IBM PC Convertible. And of course the 5150 is the PC, the 5160 is the XT, the 5170 is the AT. Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org From vaxman at qwest.net Thu Oct 11 15:04:20 2001 From: vaxman at qwest.net (Clint Wolff (VAX collector)) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:39 2005 Subject: ArcNet and the Pursuit of Multiple Topologiesu In-Reply-To: <200110100008.f9A08Fn20613@narnia.int.dittman.net> Message-ID: Yes, the Passenger Pigeon died out because people kept sitting on them. On Tue, 9 Oct 2001, Eric Dittman wrote: > > > Haven't carrier pigeons been extinct long before IP and UUCP were > > > developed? > > > > Nope, people still use carrier pigeons. > > > > You're thinking of the Passenger Pigeon. The last one died in 1914. > > I get those mixed up. Thanks. > -- > Eric Dittman > dittman@dittman.net > Check out the DEC Enthusiasts Club at http://www.dittman.net/ > > From g at kurico.com Thu Oct 11 15:18:57 2001 From: g at kurico.com (George Currie) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:39 2005 Subject: ArcNet and the Pursuit of Multiple Topologies In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <3BC49DA00001E5F3@mail.san.yahoo.com> (added by postmaster@mail.san.yahoo.com) Any one ever use a network called KanNet (I think that's how it was spelled). It was around in the mid 80's. The early ones I used actually utilized both a host adapter and an external box (the network cabling attached via the boxes). The boxes were large (say 12"x12"x3") and the topology was a ring running on coax. George On Wed, 10 Oct 2001 18:05:56 -0400 (EDT), One Without Reason wrote: > >There was another network that completely slipped my >mind. Myrinet. MYRINET!!!! > >Peace... Sridhar > >On Wed, 10 Oct 2001, John Ruschmeyer wrote: > >> Sounds a lot like a box I've been threatening to build for a while. >> >> On the Ethernet side, I'd not worry about specific 10bT and ThickNet >> segments. Instead, I'd run a single 10b2 (ThinNet) segment and get a 10bT >> hub with a BNC uplink. This also had the advantage of saving you a slot in >> the box. Don't worry about ThickNet, just pick up a couple of spare 10bT or >> 10b2 tranceivers for the odd box with an AUI port. >> >> Since you've got LocalTalk running to the box, then I'd also run MacGate >> which would let you run MacIP (IP over LocalTalk). >> >> As for other fun topologies, you already mentioned TokenRing. My personal >> choice would be to also add HomePNA (Ethernet over phonelines). The 1MB >> HomePNA 1.0 cards (the only ones supported by Linux)are very cheap these >> days. I picked up a pair from Computer Geeks (http://www.compgeeks.com) for >> something like $12. Now if I could just find a cheap Ethernet/HomePNA bridge >> for the Nubus Mac in the spare bedroom... >> >> <<>> >> >> -----Original Message----- >> Date: Tue, 9 Oct 2001 12:50:01 -0500 >> From: Tarsi >> Subject: ArcNet and the Pursuit of Multiple Topologies >> >> Dear all, >> >> I've decided that one of my goals is to run every networking topology >> possible in my house, regardless if I actually NEED to run them or not. :) >> >> My plan is to place 1 linux box running a card from each topology in it and >> use that to bridge all (or almost all) topologies. >> >> I currently have running 10bT ethernet, 10b2 ethernet, Localtalk over >> PhoneNET and the beginnings of Arcnet. >> >> In light of such, I have a series of questions: >> >> 1) Who knows some stuff about ArcNet? I've gotten 4 cards (8-bit ISA) and >> a >> 16-port active hub. I've read somewhere that cards are either hubbable or >> not. Any other info on that? >> >> 2) Anyone have any (I think it is) 93ohm coax arcnet patch cables that they >> want to get rid of? >> >> 3) Anyone got good resources on ThickNET? (10b5 I think it is?) I know it >> was run back in the day, and I know some precursory things about it (the >> funky vampire taps, etc.) Anyone have either resources or hardware on this >> topology that they'd like to share/sell/etc? :) >> >> 4) Any other interesting topologies I should try? I have plans to do: >> Arcnet, FDDI, Token ring, Localtalk, 10b2, 10b5, 10bT, 10bTX, 10bFiber, and >> (eventually) 802.11b wireless. >> >> > From gwynp at artware.qc.ca Thu Oct 11 15:27:43 2001 From: gwynp at artware.qc.ca (gwynp@artware.qc.ca) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:39 2005 Subject: IDing WYSE terminal In-Reply-To: <837.684T1100T9644505optimus@canit.se> Message-ID: On 11-Oct-2001 Iggy Drougge wrote: > gwynp skrev: > >>On 11-Oct-2001 Iggy Drougge wrote: >>> It seems that WYSEs are notorious for being frail. > >>My wyse 85 seems to be robust. I hope it doesn't die, because I *heart* >>the thing! > > My WY60 works fine, too, but it seems that we've been lucky, compared to > what you might find in the big chunk of WYSE messages at > http://www.cs.utk.edu/~shuford/terminal_index.html. 403 forbidden I figure that while maybe most wyse terminals died easily, those that were going to die already have. And all these years later, only the hardy ones have survived. -Philip From erd_6502 at yahoo.com Thu Oct 11 15:39:22 2001 From: erd_6502 at yahoo.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:39 2005 Subject: Dark Tower - any internals info out there? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20011011203922.71099.qmail@web20104.mail.yahoo.com> Does anyone know if there is any info to be had about how the innards of games like Dark Tower function. I've never seen inside one but I presume there's a custom chip that's a microprocessor, RAM and ROM all rolled into one, for cost reasons. I scoured the web, but only found a couple of fan pages and plenty of places offering to _sell_ me one. I was wondering how hard it would be to make a satisfactory replica of the Tower on a webpage (Javascript or the like) or within some kind of MAME-like emulator. -ethan __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Make a great connection at Yahoo! Personals. http://personals.yahoo.com From mythtech at Mac.com Thu Oct 11 15:52:44 2001 From: mythtech at Mac.com (Chris) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:39 2005 Subject: Looking for : IBM 5110 Serial IO adapter software Message-ID: >Also note that IBM PC used the same model number series. > >The 5110 and 5120 were both portables like the 5100, with added features. >We researched it before but I forgot what the 5130 is. The 5140 is the >IBM PC Convertible. And of course the 5150 is the PC, the 5160 is the XT, >the 5170 is the AT. Humm... I think I might have a 5150, 5160, and a 5170 around as well (actually, I KNOW I have a few 5170's left... but only two or three, the rest were dumpstered, or stripped for parts). I don't think my 5150 works, but it is an original "IBM PC" (I know the matching monochrome monitor for it is broken, just displays a bright white line down the middle). I would have to search and see if I have a 5160, or just XT clones (again, they might have all been dumpstered). Yup... sitting on the other side of my desk is a 5170, the case is open, and it is on its side, currently supporting the Wyse 60 terminal I was questioning (and making the 5170's video card bow pretty bad under the weight of the terminal). I know, some people might be cringing at my abuse of it... but the ATs are worthless to me (outside of the fact that you can stick a pentium baby AT logic board in it, and reuse the case and power supply... I think that is where most of my 5170's went) -chris From bdwheele at indiana.edu Thu Oct 11 16:22:26 2001 From: bdwheele at indiana.edu (Brian Wheeler) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:39 2005 Subject: AlphaServer 1000A & EISA Config Message-ID: <1002835346.19306.20.camel@wombat.educ.indiana.edu> It is slightly off topic, though I hadn't seen an eisa card for what seems like a decade :) In any case, I recently got a 2nd hand AlphaServer 1000A with no disks. I put an EISA SCSI card I dug up in the machine, but its wanting me to run the eisa configuration utility. After scouring the net, I found one that would come up, but only if I burned it onto a CD. Now its complaining that It can't find a configuration file for my system board. Grrr. I suppose I'm glad EISA is dead, but...it would be nice if I could get this silly SCSI card to work. Any thoughts/hints/suggestions? Brian Wheeler bdwheele@indiana.edu From philpem at bigfoot.com Thu Oct 11 16:38:07 2001 From: philpem at bigfoot.com (Philip Pemberton) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:39 2005 Subject: [possibly OT]: Citizen 120D+ interface connector and Acorn System questions Message-ID: <01f801c1529d$08e8c460$bd797ad5@phoenix> Hi, I've just dug out my old Citizen 120D+ 80-column dot-matrix printer, reseated the connectors, etc. and I've managed to break a few of the pins off the interface connector on the printer. I've bodged in a few bits of wire to get it running, but it's a bit temperamental. Anyone know what sort of connector Citizen used on this thing? I'm not talking about the Centronics connector, I'm talking about the one that connects up to the interface board. It looks like a two-row DIN41612 and has 15 pins per row (30 total pins). There is some text on it in black ink, but I don't know if it's relevant. It (the connector) has a 0.1" (2.54mm) pitch both vertically and horizontally. Anyone got a service manual for this almost-ten-year-old monster of a printer? I'd hate to throw it away for the sake of a knackered connector... BTW, anyone got a schematic for the Acorn Teletext Video card for the Acorn System-series machines? Thanks. -- Phil. philpem@bigfoot.com http://www.philpem.f9.co.uk/ From optimus at canit.se Thu Oct 11 17:35:42 2001 From: optimus at canit.se (Iggy Drougge) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:39 2005 Subject: ArcNet and the Pursuit of Multiple Topologies In-Reply-To: <3BC49DA00001E5F3@mail.san.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <655.684T2100T14155801optimus@canit.se> George Currie skrev: >Any one ever use a network called KanNet (I think that's how it was spelled). > It was around in the mid 80's. The early ones I used actually utilized both >a host adapter and an external box (the network cabling attached via the >boxes). The boxes were large (say 12"x12"x3") and the topology was a ring >running on coax. How come noone (not even I) has mentioned Apollo Tokenring? [snipsnipsnipsnipsnipsnip] -- En ligne avec Thor 2.6a. "Computer games don't affect kids, I mean if Pac Man affected us as kids, we'd all be running around in darkened rooms, munching pills and listening to repetitive music." David McMinn From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Oct 11 16:14:13 2001 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:39 2005 Subject: IBM ROM BASIC or lack thereof In-Reply-To: from "gwynp@artware.qc.ca" at Oct 10, 1 10:13:40 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 204 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20011011/d025d6d6/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Oct 11 16:53:07 2001 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:39 2005 Subject: IDing WYSE terminal In-Reply-To: from "Chris" at Oct 11, 1 10:41:15 am Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1855 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20011011/7beec691/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Oct 11 16:30:29 2001 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:39 2005 Subject: Research Machines Information In-Reply-To: <579AC59C515DD211B38B00A0C9B22928B79DC0@HEMESC.sema.co.uk> from "HARDY, Simon" at Oct 11, 1 09:30:08 am Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 2490 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20011011/0cd8fd02/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Oct 11 17:06:34 2001 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:39 2005 Subject: [possibly OT]: Citizen 120D+ interface connector and Acorn System questions In-Reply-To: <01f801c1529d$08e8c460$bd797ad5@phoenix> from "Philip Pemberton" at Oct 11, 1 10:38:07 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1265 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20011011/b8bfec6e/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Oct 11 17:12:37 2001 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:39 2005 Subject: Looking for : IBM 5110 Serial IO adapter software` In-Reply-To: from "Chris" at Oct 11, 1 04:52:44 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1424 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20011011/1633dadf/attachment.ksh From george at racsys.rt.rain.com Thu Oct 11 17:09:21 2001 From: george at racsys.rt.rain.com (George Leo Rachor Jr.) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:39 2005 Subject: IBM ROM BASIC or lack thereof In-Reply-To: Message-ID: I saw a component at a shop in Malaysia marked Intel 586 once. Many times I've regretted not buying it just as a conversation piece. I always wondered if that would have given me problems coming back into the US at customs.... Imagine what that might bring on Ebay to the un-informed. George Rachor ========================================================= George L. Rachor Jr. george@rachors.com Hillsboro, Oregon http://rachors.com United States of America Amateur Radio : KD7DCX On Thu, 11 Oct 2001, Tony Duell wrote: > > There was once a computer "sales" person that tried to sell me an Intel > > 586. Needless to say, the person failed. > > Why? Do you have an objection to the 82586? (An ethernet chip I believe...) > > -tony > > From pete at dunnington.u-net.com Thu Oct 11 15:22:13 2001 From: pete at dunnington.u-net.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:39 2005 Subject: IDing WYSE terminal In-Reply-To: Chris "RE: IDing WYSE terminal" (Oct 11, 10:41) References: Message-ID: <10110112122.ZM9882@mindy.dunnington.u-net.com> On Oct 11, 10:41, Chris wrote: > >The Wyse does indeed look like a 60, but I think the 55 and 35 > >look similar. Had it been a 50 or a 100, it would have been a > >more obvious identification. > > I have a wyse 50 (I know it is, cause the case says so). I have tried it > in place of this dead one, and it didn't work. I don't know how different > each model is from one another, but maybe since the 50 didn't work, I can > rule out a 55? Probably not. If the daughtercard is indeed an RS422 interface, as someone suggested, an ordinary RS232 or RS423 terminal will probably not work. RS232 and 423 are single-ended interfaces, which means that each signal consists of one wire plus a common ground connection. RS422 is a differential system, where each signal has a positive and negative connection. If your system is intended to connect to an RS422 terminal, you'd need to do some hardware hacking to make it work. Do you have any information on the pinout of the interface? -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager University of York From pjschilling at gcstech.net Thu Oct 11 17:49:33 2001 From: pjschilling at gcstech.net (Phil Schilling) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:39 2005 Subject: [possibly OT]: Citizen 120D+ interface connector and Acorn System questions In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Philip, I have one shelved here it you want it for parts? Shipping only. Phil -----Original Message----- From: owner-classiccmp@classiccmp.org [mailto:owner-classiccmp@classiccmp.org]On Behalf Of Philip Pemberton Sent: Thursday, October 11, 2001 4:38 PM To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org Subject: [possibly OT]: Citizen 120D+ interface connector and Acorn System questions Hi, I've just dug out my old Citizen 120D+ 80-column dot-matrix printer, reseated the connectors, etc. and I've managed to break a few of the pins off the interface connector on the printer. I've bodged in a few bits of wire to get it running, but it's a bit temperamental. Anyone know what sort of connector Citizen used on this thing? I'm not talking about the Centronics connector, I'm talking about the one that connects up to the interface board. It looks like a two-row DIN41612 and has 15 pins per row (30 total pins). There is some text on it in black ink, but I don't know if it's relevant. It (the connector) has a 0.1" (2.54mm) pitch both vertically and horizontally. Anyone got a service manual for this almost-ten-year-old monster of a printer? I'd hate to throw it away for the sake of a knackered connector... BTW, anyone got a schematic for the Acorn Teletext Video card for the Acorn System-series machines? Thanks. -- Phil. philpem@bigfoot.com http://www.philpem.f9.co.uk/ From mcguire at neurotica.com Thu Oct 11 17:47:35 2001 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:39 2005 Subject: truck space potentially available Message-ID: <15302.8583.983067.306934@phaduka.neurotica.com> Hey folks. It is likely that I will be driving an empty 24' truck to the DC area from the Tampa, Florida area within the next week. It has a lift gate. I would like to defray the cost of the truck somewhat...If anyone needs anything hauled along the 75N->10E->95N route, please contact me off-list. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Laurel, MD From mythtech at Mac.com Thu Oct 11 18:32:24 2001 From: mythtech at Mac.com (Chris) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:40 2005 Subject: Dark Tower - any internals info out there? Message-ID: >Does anyone know if there is any info to be had about how the innards >of games like Dark Tower function. I've never seen inside one but I >presume there's a custom chip that's a microprocessor, RAM and ROM >all rolled into one, for cost reasons. I think I still have mine, and in working condition. Although I would not be willing to part with it (thus why I think I still have it), I CAN open it and send some digital pics of the chips. Maybe even draw out some schematics. I would guess that based on its age, there is nothing fancy in there. Probably a simple eeprom or something for storing your stats, and everything else was probably random gates (fighting, spinning, whathaveyou). As far as "emulation" goes, I would think you could just write it from the ground up following the rules of the game. Although, it wouldn't be a true emulation, it would make it playable (and you could do it networked EASY... now THAT would be a cool internet based game!) -chris From mythtech at Mac.com Thu Oct 11 18:40:36 2001 From: mythtech at Mac.com (Chris) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:40 2005 Subject: IDing WYSE terminal Message-ID: >If the daughtercard is indeed an RS422 interface, as someone >suggested, an ordinary RS232 or RS423 terminal will probably not work. Thanks to a link I found pointing to a reference page on wyse's web site, I have found out MUCH more info on this. Yes, the card is a RS422 card. Wyse even specifies that the ONLY company that it was made for was Isoetec, and they give the part number on it (and specify that replacements have to be bought thru isoetec). They do imply that it can be fitted on a standard wyse 60, but don't come right out and say that. > RS232 and 423 are single-ended interfaces, which means that each signal >consists of one wire plus a common ground connection. RS422 is a >differential system, where each signal has a positive and negative >connection. If your system is intended to connect to an RS422 terminal, >you'd need to do some hardware hacking to make it work. This suddenly makes all the sense in the world as to why my laptop can't connect to it. My laptop just has a standard RS232. I will probably have to try my Mac as it has an RS422 port on it. Otherwise, I am fairly sure I have a 422 serial card for a PC, I can always lug a whole PC to the site (it is at a different office, so hands on tests are hard to do... I make a list of things to try, and do them all in one visit) >Do you have any >information on the pinout of the interface? the Wyse link I came across has some info on it. IF I can track down the tech manual for the phone system, and IF it is like the manual I have to my 96 phone system, then it will have lots of tech info on pinouts... but so far I have been unsuccessful in finding a 66 techmanual :-( -chris From mythtech at Mac.com Thu Oct 11 18:43:24 2001 From: mythtech at Mac.com (Chris) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:40 2005 Subject: IDing WYSE terminal Message-ID: >If it is a Wyse 60, then I have the schematic in front of me.... > >First question : [snip] ROFL... halfway reading thru all that, I suddenly had flashbacks of the briefing from "Hardware Wars" (attack the flip flop over ride...huh?... ya pull the plug!) I will take a look at it tomorrow and see what some tests turn up. -chris From allain at panix.com Thu Oct 11 18:43:48 2001 From: allain at panix.com (John Allain) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:40 2005 Subject: ArcNet and the Pursuit of Multiple Topologies References: <655.684T2100T14155801optimus@canit.se> Message-ID: <002601c152ae$9342cbe0$21fe54a6@ibm23xhr06> > How come noone (not even I) has mentioned Apollo Tokenring? Maybe some of us have decided to get a life in the last month. Banyan VINES? John A. From mythtech at Mac.com Thu Oct 11 18:49:27 2001 From: mythtech at Mac.com (Chris) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:40 2005 Subject: Looking for : IBM 5110 Serial IO adapter software` Message-ID: >_White_ line? All IBM5151 monitors that I've seen are green-screen (in >fact that's specified somewhere in the techref). Is this a genuine IBM >monitor? You know, it might be a bright green line. I haven't powered it up in years. The only reason I didn't pitch it is because it IS a genuine IBM monitor (the 5151), and I didn't want to seperate it from its PC... which I wanted to keep because it was the first "IBM PC". >Is the line vertical or horizontal. You imply the former, which is rare >(most horizontal deflection faults kill the EHT as well, leaving a dark >screen). If that is the case, there's only about 4 components that can be >at fault.... I am fairly sure it is vertical. I remember when it started to die, I did the Mac Plus analog board fix for it (whack it on the side), and that would bring it back for a bit. Finally it just stopped coming back, and stayed as a bright line. Humm... maybe in November I will pull it out and see if I can get it running. (I have too much work to do this month to get to the fun stuff). -chris From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Oct 11 19:05:04 2001 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:40 2005 Subject: Looking for : IBM 5110 Serial IO adapter software` In-Reply-To: from "Chris" at Oct 11, 1 07:49:27 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1741 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20011012/35f9d0d8/attachment.ksh From mcguire at neurotica.com Thu Oct 11 19:20:29 2001 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:40 2005 Subject: ArcNet and the Pursuit of Multiple Topologies In-Reply-To: Re: ArcNet and the Pursuit of Multiple Topologies (John Allain) References: <655.684T2100T14155801optimus@canit.se> <002601c152ae$9342cbe0$21fe54a6@ibm23xhr06> Message-ID: <15302.14157.489010.464191@phaduka.neurotica.com> On October 11, John Allain wrote: > > How come noone (not even I) has mentioned Apollo Tokenring? > > Maybe some of us have decided to get a life in the last month. > > > Banyan VINES? Isn't Vines a protocol, rather than a medium? What I mean is...can't you run Vines over ethernet/fddi/whatever? -Dave -- Dave McGuire Laurel, MD From dogas at bellsouth.net Thu Oct 11 20:00:22 2001 From: dogas at bellsouth.net (Mike) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:40 2005 Subject: truck space potentially available References: <15302.8583.983067.306934@phaduka.neurotica.com> Message-ID: <000b01c152b9$46d2c4d0$4662d6d1@DOMAIN> Hyya Dave, That'll be a close flyby to a few of my spots along I-95 (Jacksonville, FL and Brunswick, GA) I have a Sequent Symmetry 2500 and its disk subsystem that would love to hitch a ride to a new home. Anyone along the remainder of Dave's route want it? Stop by if you can anyway... ;) - Mike: dogas@bellsouth.net > > Hey folks. It is likely that I will be driving an empty 24' truck to > the DC area from the Tampa, Florida area within the next week. It has > a lift gate. I would like to defray the cost of the truck > somewhat...If anyone needs anything hauled along the 75N->10E->95N > route, please contact me off-list. > > -Dave > > -- > Dave McGuire > Laurel, MD > From dtwright at uiuc.edu Thu Oct 11 20:46:30 2001 From: dtwright at uiuc.edu (Dan Wright) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:40 2005 Subject: 2.88 MB floppy drive, scsi? In-Reply-To: ; from jhellige@earthlink.net on Wed, Oct 10, 2001 at 08:55:23PM -0400 References: <200110101701.f9AH1WL22839@narnia.int.dittman.net> <200110101701.f9AH1WL22839@narnia.int.dittman.net> Message-ID: <20011011204630.B1405609@uiuc.edu> Jeff Hellige said: > loaded clone. The 1542 conflicted with some of the other stuff I had > on the ISA bus. Otherwise I've been quite happy with every Adaptec > board I've ever used, from the lowend 1510/1522A to the 2940 UW I'm > running now. I have both a 29160U2W and a 2940UW in my machine at work and they make me very happy. - Dan Wright (dtwright@uiuc.edu) (http://www.uiuc.edu/~dtwright) -] ------------------------------ [-] -------------------------------- [- ``Weave a circle round him thrice, / And close your eyes with holy dread, For he on honeydew hath fed, / and drunk the milk of Paradise.'' Samuel Taylor Coleridge, Kubla Khan -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 229 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20011011/a4945221/attachment.bin From dtwright at uiuc.edu Thu Oct 11 20:49:45 2001 From: dtwright at uiuc.edu (Dan Wright) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:40 2005 Subject: 2.88 MB floppy drive, scsi? In-Reply-To: ; from mikeford@socal.rr.com on Thu, Oct 11, 2001 at 01:58:09AM -0700 References: <3BC52481.A6956A1C@verizon.net> Message-ID: <20011011204945.C1405609@uiuc.edu> UltraSpec Cables also makes excellent SCSI stuff -- http://www.ultraspec.com Mike Ford said: > >Mike, > > > >> Solve your SCSI problems with one word, Granite. > > > > What do you mean by this? > > http://www.scsipro.com/ > > Granite Digital makes the best cables etc. If you use them most SCSI > weirdness will never effect you. > - Dan Wright (dtwright@uiuc.edu) (http://www.uiuc.edu/~dtwright) -] ------------------------------ [-] -------------------------------- [- ``Weave a circle round him thrice, / And close your eyes with holy dread, For he on honeydew hath fed, / and drunk the milk of Paradise.'' Samuel Taylor Coleridge, Kubla Khan -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 229 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20011011/9e8bc752/attachment.bin From dlinder at uiuc.edu Thu Oct 11 21:21:06 2001 From: dlinder at uiuc.edu (Dan Linder) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:40 2005 Subject: Sigma Designs OneReel Tape In-Reply-To: <544.684T1650T9664907optimus@canit.se> Message-ID: On 11 Oct 2001, Iggy Drougge wrote: > portrait greyscale monitors. They're great. They also made on of the most odd > contraptions ever, a SCSI colour monitor. I'd like to hear more about this SCSI monitor - was it data over SCSI, or some kind of control thing, or what? Dan Linder / dlinder @ uiuc.edu Graduate Student, College of Engineering, Dept. of Computer Science - Dept. of Computer Science Teaching Assistant - DRES Computer Accessibility Researcher From mythtech at Mac.com Thu Oct 11 21:35:52 2001 From: mythtech at Mac.com (Chris) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:40 2005 Subject: Looking for : IBM 5110 Serial IO adapter software` Message-ID: >> I am fairly sure it is vertical. I remember when it started to die, I did >> the Mac Plus analog board fix for it (whack it on the side), and that > >Err, the Mac+ fix I use here involves a TX15 torx driver and a soldering >iron. My Mac+ has a stable screen :-)... Yes, yes, that is the correct way to fix it (I have done many myself)... the "whack it" comment was a tongue in cheek remark, since at one point, that was actually an apple authorized temporary fix (until you got tired of it enough to bring it into a service shop and have the joint resoldered... since back in that day, you were supposed to open your own mac... although I ignored that starting with my 128k). At one point, I even found a tech note about doing it, although, they refered to it as "tapping forcefully". -chris From jdonogh1 at prodigy.net Thu Oct 11 21:00:16 2001 From: jdonogh1 at prodigy.net (Jim Donoghue) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:40 2005 Subject: Wang VS Message-ID: <01101122001602.02112@ws1> Does anyone know where I might find a Stand Alone Utility (SAU) disk for a Wang VS5E? Or maybe some OS install disks, or a old hard disk from one? VS15 or VS25 would work also-same processor (CP5) From acme_ent at bellsouth.net Thu Oct 11 22:51:37 2001 From: acme_ent at bellsouth.net (Glen Goodwin) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:40 2005 Subject: SCSI pros & cons Message-ID: <20011012035324.BIQV14171.imf05bis.bellsouth.net@thegoodw> > Glen Goodwin skrev: > > >Hmm -- my personal experience is that, unless the machine is already > >junked-up with a random assortment of TV and radio tuner cards, video > >accelerators, SoundBlasters and DVD decoders, SCSI is easily added to a > >motherboard with onboard IDE ports. I've personally built a few dozen of > >them, using both IDE and PCI SCSI controllers. > > >What sorts of problems are you encountering? Iggy Drougge replied: > You're welcome to try to sort out our pile of SCSI cards which so far haven't > worked in our OpenBSD machine. One machine, or many? If you have a pile of cards, one machine, and none of the cards work in that specific box, I'd suggest that there may be a fault in the box, or another device in there which conflicts with your SCSI cards. > We don't use PCI cards, though (we sold that > one, since we wouldn't use the SCSI for anything else than tapestreamers and > so forth). Besides, SCSI integration into PC systems is really clumsy. Wow - these days the BIOS setup utility on the cards allows a lot of flexibility and also provides information about the installed SCSI devices, making it easy to verify IDs, etc. A few years ago I was building 80MHz 486 systems using Rancho Technologies RT1000 8-bit SCSI cards which I got for about $8 each. The cards were shipped labeled "not Win95 compatible," but, not only did they work with Win95, I never saw a faulty card, or a system in which the RT1000 wouldn't work. (Okay, so they were *slow*) So, my SCSI experiences have been good. > and they don't behave like the IDE hard drives. Well, that's the point, right? ;>) > They > have their own little BIOSes and things which I'm not used to from other > systems. Those little BIOSes (the ones with a setup program) are a *big* advantage. Just today I was cursing the fact that the BIOS on the ATA-66 controller I was installing didn't have a setup program. It took me two hours to get all six IDE drives working properly. With a decent SCSI card it would have been 15 minutes, tops (barring any bad drives or cables). > In fact, non-PC systems tend to see IDE as a kind of bastard SCSI > instead. They may be onto something there . . . Glen 0/0 From fernande at internet1.net Thu Oct 11 23:11:06 2001 From: fernande at internet1.net (Chad Fernandez) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:40 2005 Subject: AlphaServer 1000A & EISA Config References: <1002835346.19306.20.camel@wombat.educ.indiana.edu> Message-ID: <3BC66D5A.7414B7CB@internet1.net> I think I can help a bit. When you make your EISA config floppy disk, you need to lable it correctly. My Unisys 486 EISA based server needs the disk labled "systemcfg". Your motherboard probably needs a config file, just like a card does. I'm not sure it is a *.cfg file, However. It might be an "ovl" file. I have no idea what the ovl files do, they aren't asci text. I'd try a google search. Chad Fernandez Michigan, USA Brian Wheeler wrote: > > It is slightly off topic, though I hadn't seen an eisa card for what > seems like a decade :) > > In any case, I recently got a 2nd hand AlphaServer 1000A with no disks. > I put an EISA SCSI card I dug up in the machine, but its wanting me to > run the eisa configuration utility. After scouring the net, I found one > that would come up, but only if I burned it onto a CD. Now its > complaining that It can't find a configuration file for my system board. > > Grrr. I suppose I'm glad EISA is dead, but...it would be nice if I > could get this silly SCSI card to work. > > Any thoughts/hints/suggestions? > > Brian Wheeler > bdwheele@indiana.edu From allain at panix.com Thu Oct 11 23:28:26 2001 From: allain at panix.com (John Allain) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:40 2005 Subject: Philbrick? References: <754.684T2350T9756447optimus@canit.se> Message-ID: <001b01c152d6$56f59aa0$21fe54a6@ibm23xhr06> While cleaning up some garage space (yes, so a Car could go in there) I came across a cache of some things I knew I had and one thing I forgot. A 2 tube module.from George A. Philbrick Researches Inc. It's a GAP/R K2-W with "computor" tubes in it. Before anybody vomits (as regards computor) could somebody remind me who Philbrick was? The name seems familliar. TIA John A. From spc at conman.org Thu Oct 11 23:32:38 2001 From: spc at conman.org (Sean 'Captain Napalm' Conner) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:40 2005 Subject: OT: Dark Tower In-Reply-To: from "Chris" at Oct 11, 2001 07:32:24 PM Message-ID: <200110120432.AAA25358@conman.org> It was thus said that the Great Chris once stated: > > I would guess that based on its age, there is nothing fancy in there. > Probably a simple eeprom or something for storing your stats, and > everything else was probably random gates (fighting, spinning, > whathaveyou). As far as "emulation" goes, I would think you could just > write it from the ground up following the rules of the game. Although, it > wouldn't be a true emulation, it would make it playable (and you could do > it networked EASY... now THAT would be a cool internet based game!) What exactly IS Dark Tower? I've heard of Dork Tower (a comic book) but not Dark Tower. If you prefer to answer off list, that would be fine too 8-) -spc (And my colocated server is called tower ... even though it's not in a tower case ... ) From donm at cts.com Thu Oct 11 23:53:03 2001 From: donm at cts.com (Don Maslin) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:40 2005 Subject: Philbrick? In-Reply-To: <001b01c152d6$56f59aa0$21fe54a6@ibm23xhr06> Message-ID: On Fri, 12 Oct 2001, John Allain wrote: > While cleaning up some garage space (yes, so a Car could > go in there) I came across a cache of some things I knew I > had and one thing I forgot. > A 2 tube module.from George A. Philbrick Researches Inc. > It's a GAP/R K2-W with "computor" tubes in it. > > Before anybody vomits (as regards computor) could > somebody remind me who Philbrick was? > The name seems familliar. TIA > > John A. Crystal radios? - don From celigne at tinyworld.co.uk Fri Oct 12 01:05:05 2001 From: celigne at tinyworld.co.uk (Paul Williams) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:40 2005 Subject: Research Machines Information References: <579AC59C515DD211B38B00A0C9B22928B79DDE@HEMESC.sema.co.uk> Message-ID: <3BC68811.D142B5D6@tinyworld.co.uk> "HARDY, Simon" wrote: > > Desperately seeking any 480z or 380z manuals or other information, > online, original or photocopy. I will scan the 11-page information file tonight and put it online. If you like, I can also send you photocopies (of photocopies!) of the file. Just send me your address. Careful: replies go to list by default. From mhstein at usa.net Fri Oct 12 02:23:08 2001 From: mhstein at usa.net (M H Stein) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:40 2005 Subject: ADA 1600 for Pet? Message-ID: <01C152CD.38FA8500@mse-d03> >Date: Wed, 10 Oct 2001 14:38:21 -0500 >From: Gary Hildebrand >Subject: Re: ADA 1600 for Pet? > >Joe wrote: >> >> I recently picked up a box called a "ADA 1600 Pet Printer Interface".ki >> It's a box slightly larger than a pack of cigarettes with two cables >> attached to it. One cable has a Centronics type connector on it and the >> other has a small circuit board with both a male and female 24 position >> card edge connectors on it. Is anyone familar with it or does anyone know >> which model PET it's for? >> >> Joe > >I think that's an IEEE (HP-IB) to centronics adapter box. I remember >the PETS were famous for that IEEE interface for both disk drives and >printers. The same philosophy continued into the VIC and C=64 lines, >but in a modified serial format. Typical Commodore, just enough >different to be a pain . . . . > >Gary Hildebrand > Tsk, tsk; I would have thought that the SCSI fans would have more appreciation for Commodore's IEEE488 GPIB implementation back in the 70's: less pain than some people on this list have had with SCSI, addressable daisy-chained peripherals, more expensive and less selection just like SCSI, and no problems with termination etc. :-). And they could (and indeed did) talk more or less directly to a lot of high-end lab equipment, especially HP's, although admittedly not quite at the 10Mbps rate of today... That is indeed what it is, Joe; if you actually want to use it, the DIP switch selects the unit address (usually 4 for a printer) and (if I remember correctly) the CR/LF and all-caps options. Still have a couple in fact, as well as a 1450 serial version; used one for many years to let my 8032 talk to my Centronics 101. mike From dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com Fri Oct 12 06:22:51 2001 From: dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com (Douglas Quebbeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:40 2005 Subject: ArcNet and the Pursuit of Multiple Topologies Message-ID: <7A9BACCEF0171D4FB77019F5104CDD372257CA@jeffserver.tegjeff.com> > How come noone (not even I) has mentioned Apollo Tokenring? Or Prime's Ringnet ( a Cambridge ring )...? -dq From optimus at canit.se Fri Oct 12 08:12:52 2001 From: optimus at canit.se (Iggy Drougge) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:40 2005 Subject: SCSI pros & cons In-Reply-To: <20011012035324.BIQV14171.imf05bis.bellsouth.net@thegoodw> Message-ID: <3459.685T2600T8526253optimus@canit.se> Glen Goodwin skrev: >> Glen Goodwin skrev: >> >> >Hmm -- my personal experience is that, unless the machine is already >> >junked-up with a random assortment of TV and radio tuner cards, video >> >accelerators, SoundBlasters and DVD decoders, SCSI is easily added to a >> >motherboard with onboard IDE ports. I've personally built a few dozen >of >> >them, using both IDE and PCI SCSI controllers. >> >> >What sorts of problems are you encountering? >Iggy Drougge replied: > >> You're welcome to try to sort out our pile of SCSI cards which so far >haven't >> worked in our OpenBSD machine. >One machine, or many? If you have a pile of cards, one machine, and none >of the cards work in that specific box, I'd suggest that there may be a >fault in the box, or another device in there which conflicts with your SCSI >cards. Who cares what the cause is? The point is that it won't work. >> We don't use PCI cards, though (we sold that >> one, since we wouldn't use the SCSI for anything else than tapestreamers >and >> so forth). Besides, SCSI integration into PC systems is really clumsy. >Wow - these days the BIOS setup utility on the cards allows a lot of >flexibility and also provides information about the installed SCSI devices, >making it easy to verify IDs, etc. I see that BIOS setup utility on the cards as a sympthom of the low level of integration. The cards behave as an alien entity in the computer. >A few years ago I was building 80MHz 486 systems using Rancho Technologies >RT1000 8-bit SCSI cards which I got for about $8 each. The cards were >shipped labeled "not Win95 compatible," but, not only did they work with >Win95, I never saw a faulty card, or a system in which the RT1000 wouldn't >work. (Okay, so they were *slow*) >So, my SCSI experiences have been good. So have mine, only not with PCs. >> and they don't behave like the IDE hard drives. >Well, that's the point, right? ;>) Not really. IMO a drive is a drive is a drive is a drive. >> They >> have their own little BIOSes and things which I'm not used to from other >> systems. >Those little BIOSes (the ones with a setup program) are a *big* advantage. >Just today I was cursing the fact that the BIOS on the ATA-66 controller I >was installing didn't have a setup program. It took me two hours to get >all six IDE drives working properly. With a decent SCSI card it would have >been 15 minutes, tops (barring any bad drives or cables). Why? I've never had any need for a SCSI BIOS on my SCSI computers. >> In fact, non-PC systems tend to see IDE as a kind of bastard SCSI >> instead. >They may be onto something there . . . For example, the onboard IDE controller in the Amiga 4000 and 1200 appear to the system as scsi.device. And NetBSD/amiga only recently switched from "IDE on SCSI" to the machine-independent WDC device. =) -- En ligne avec Thor 2.6a. Every Horse has an Infinite Number of Legs (proof by intimidation): Horses have an even number of legs. Behind they have two legs, and in front they have fore-legs. This makes six legs, which is certainly an odd number of legs for a horse. But the only number that is both even and odd is infinity. Therefore, horses have an infinite number of legs. Now to show this for the general case, suppose that somewhere, there is a horse that has a finite number of legs. But that is a horse of another color, and by the [above] lemma ["All horses are the same color"], that does not exist. From optimus at canit.se Fri Oct 12 08:13:52 2001 From: optimus at canit.se (Iggy Drougge) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:40 2005 Subject: OT: Dark Tower In-Reply-To: <200110120432.AAA25358@conman.org> Message-ID: <281.685T2600T8535829optimus@canit.se> Sean 'Captain Napalm' Conner skrev: > -spc (And my colocated server is called tower ... even though it's > not in a tower case ... ) Then it must be an NCR, right? -- En ligne avec Thor 2.6a. A liberal is someone too poor to be conservative, and too rich to be a communist. From optimus at canit.se Fri Oct 12 08:06:58 2001 From: optimus at canit.se (Iggy Drougge) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:40 2005 Subject: Sigma Designs OneReel Tape In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <999.685T2900T8466953optimus@canit.se> Dan Linder skrev: >On 11 Oct 2001, Iggy Drougge wrote: >> portrait greyscale monitors. They're great. They also made on of the most >> odd contraptions ever, a SCSI colour monitor. >I'd like to hear more about this SCSI monitor - was it data over SCSI, or >some kind of control thing, or what? It actually got all its data over SCSI. I suppose its main application was the very oldest compact Macs which didn't even have any PDS slot. There is a web page out there devoted to that monitor. Shouldn't be too hard to find. Ah, here it is: http://www.netspeed.com.au/keo/sigma.htm -- En ligne avec Thor 2.6a. But a graphical client/server model that slices the interface down some arbitrary middle is like Solomon following through with his child-sharing strategy. The legs, heart, and left eye end up on the server, the arms and lungs go to the client, the head is left rolling around on the floor, and blood spurts everywhere. Don Hopkins - The Unix hater's handbook; The X-Windows disaster From optimus at canit.se Thu Oct 11 21:59:56 2001 From: optimus at canit.se (Iggy Drougge) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:40 2005 Subject: ArcNet and the Pursuit of Multiple Topologies In-Reply-To: <002601c152ae$9342cbe0$21fe54a6@ibm23xhr06> Message-ID: <319.685T2800T2396181optimus@canit.se> John Allain skrev: >> How come noone (not even I) has mentioned Apollo Tokenring? >Maybe some of us have decided to get a life in the last month. Are you being mean? >Banyan VINES? Isn't that just a protocol? -- En ligne avec Thor 2.6a. The most useful program will be continually improved until it is useless. From cmurillo at emtelsa.multi.net.co Fri Oct 12 07:18:11 2001 From: cmurillo at emtelsa.multi.net.co (Carlos Murillo) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:40 2005 Subject: SCSI pros & cons In-Reply-To: <3459.685T2600T8526253optimus@canit.se> References: <20011012035324.BIQV14171.imf05bis.bellsouth.net@thegoodw> Message-ID: <3.0.2.32.20011012081811.01dc7620@obregon.multi.net.co> At 02:12 PM 10/12/01 +0100, you wrote: >I see that BIOS setup utility on the cards as a sympthom of the low level of >integration. The cards behave as an alien entity in the computer. Which is exactly the point :-) . SCSI cards, unlike IDE subsystems, are supposed to work by themselves and ease the burden on the processor. This is considered a "good thing". Like many others, I've not had problems with the Adaptec 2940 series. I also like a CMD card that I have somewhere; it has a 72 pin SIMM slot to increase the cache; at one point I had a 64MB SIMM there and it helped the web server a lot. But the nicest one I've seen is the ibm ultra-160 raid controller in our smp netfinity Linux server. It absolutely rocks. Do note that I tend to use HP, Sun, DEC or IBM scsi cables. Mac cables have given me trouble before. carlos. -------------------------------------------------------------- Carlos E. Murillo-Sanchez carlos_murillo@nospammers.ieee.org From Robert_Feldman at jdedwards.com Fri Oct 12 08:25:24 2001 From: Robert_Feldman at jdedwards.com (Feldman, Robert) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:40 2005 Subject: Philbrick? Message-ID: "In 1937-1938 George A. Philbrick developed what he called an "Automatic Control Analyzer." The analyzer was an electronic analog computer..." http://www.computer.org/annals/an1982/a2143abs.htm "Model K2-W computing opamp George A. Philbrick Researches This is a general purpose computing opamp. First introduced in 1952. " http://www.best.com/~dcoward/analog/ -----Original Message----- From: John Allain [mailto:allain@panix.com] Sent: Thursday, October 11, 2001 11:28 PM To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org Subject: Philbrick? While cleaning up some garage space (yes, so a Car could go in there) I came across a cache of some things I knew I had and one thing I forgot. A 2 tube module.from George A. Philbrick Researches Inc. It's a GAP/R K2-W with "computor" tubes in it. Before anybody vomits (as regards computor) could somebody remind me who Philbrick was? The name seems familliar. TIA John A. From zmerch at 30below.com Fri Oct 12 08:58:01 2001 From: zmerch at 30below.com (Roger Merchberger) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:40 2005 Subject: SCSI pros & cons In-Reply-To: <3459.685T2600T8526253optimus@canit.se> References: <20011012035324.BIQV14171.imf05bis.bellsouth.net@thegoodw> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20011012094514.0241e780@mail.30below.com> Rumor has it that Iggy Drougge may have mentioned these words: >Glen Goodwin skrev: > > >One machine, or many? If you have a pile of cards, one machine, and none > >of the cards work in that specific box, I'd suggest that there may be a > >fault in the box, or another device in there which conflicts with your SCSI > >cards. > >Who cares what the cause is? The point is that it won't work. If the cause is the motherboard, you can't (justly) accuse the SCSI card of being the problem... >I see that BIOS setup utility on the cards as a sympthom of the low level of >integration. The cards behave as an alien entity in the computer. With my job, one realizes that *every* card is an alien entity -- I've had *much* less heartburn getting add-on SCSI cards to work compared to PCI-based add-on IDE cards (which, BTW, have their own BIOS too - and a much more useless one at that...) and you apparently have never gotten a Sound Blaster Live MP3/5.1 card working under Windows 2000... It took me over 4 hours to research that one, whereas my 4-year-old --ahem -- no longer supported -- PCI Diamond MultiMedia Fireport 40 Ultra SCSI card installed without a hitch... > >> and they don't behave like the IDE hard drives. > > >Well, that's the point, right? ;>) > >Not really. IMO a drive is a drive is a drive is a drive. You're certainly entitled to your opinion, but I cannot subscribe to that point of view -- especially when I want my drive to do something a normal drive isn't supposed to do. And don't get me started on IDE 2.1 Orb Drives... Love the storage, *Hate* the setup... (and XP doesn't support it yet...) SCSI "just plain works..." > >> They > >> have their own little BIOSes and things which I'm not used to from other > >> systems. > > >Those little BIOSes (the ones with a setup program) are a *big* advantage. > >Just today I was cursing the fact that the BIOS on the ATA-66 controller I > >was installing didn't have a setup program. It took me two hours to get > >all six IDE drives working properly. With a decent SCSI card it would have > >been 15 minutes, tops (barring any bad drives or cables). > >Why? I've never had any need for a SCSI BIOS on my SCSI computers. And you won't until you need to boot from any drive that's not ID 0 on the board (like booting from CD, etc...) > >> In fact, non-PC systems tend to see IDE as a kind of bastard SCSI > >> instead. > > >They may be onto something there . . . ;-) >For example, the onboard IDE controller in the Amiga 4000 and 1200 appear to >the system as scsi.device. And NetBSD/amiga only recently switched from "IDE >on SCSI" to the machine-independent WDC device. =) And the only way I can get my IDE 16X Plextor CD-RW to work under Linux is with SCSI emulation - without it I end up with digital frizbees... Thankfully, SCSI works for me! ;-) Just my $0.000002 (Canadian - I'm going to Canada today...) Roger "Merch" Merchberger From rmeenaks at olf.com Fri Oct 12 09:48:18 2001 From: rmeenaks at olf.com (Ram Meenakshisundaram) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:40 2005 Subject: Levco Macintosh Transputer on Ebay Message-ID: <3BC702B2.6FCB6D84@olf.com> Hi, Here is a link to a Levco Macintosh Transputer board on ebay. http://cgi.ebay.com/aw-cgi/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=1284357549 I am not connected to this listing, just passing on the information. I have some information on this board if anyone is interested, but I do not have any drivers for it. If anyone has them, I'll be happy to host them on my website.... Cheers, Ram -- ,,,, /'^'\ ( o o ) -oOOO--(_)--OOOo------------------------------------- | Ram Meenakshisundaram | | Senior Software Engineer | | OpenLink Financial Inc | | .oooO Phone: (516) 227-6600 x267 | | ( ) Oooo. Email: rmeenaks@olf.com | ---\ (----( )-------------------------------------- \_) ) / (_/ From dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com Fri Oct 12 09:54:11 2001 From: dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com (Douglas Quebbeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:40 2005 Subject: Sigma Designs OneReel Tape Message-ID: <7A9BACCEF0171D4FB77019F5104CDD372257CC@jeffserver.tegjeff.com> > It actually got all its data over SCSI. I suppose its main application was the > very oldest compact Macs which didn't even have any PDS slot. The very oldest Macs didn't have SCSI ports... However, a company called Dove had a board that plugged into the ROM slots, and into which you then placed the ROMs, that provided a SCSI interface for the Mac 512k/512ke. They also had a memory board that had the way of interfacing to the main board... it had funny-looking sockets that "clamped" down on top of the existing DRAMs and which provided enough to bring a 128k Mac up to 512k or a 512k Mac up to 1MB. I still have both boards... -dq From dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com Fri Oct 12 09:55:53 2001 From: dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com (Douglas Quebbeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:40 2005 Subject: Sigma Designs OneReel Tape Message-ID: <7A9BACCEF0171D4FB77019F5104CDD372257CD@jeffserver.tegjeff.com> > >I'd like to hear more about this SCSI monitor - was it data over SCSI, or > >some kind of control thing, or what? > > It actually got all its data over SCSI. I suppose its main application was the > very oldest compact Macs which didn't even have any PDS slot. Forgot to mention... There were SCSI-interfaced Ethernet adapters for SCSI-equipped Macs... got one of those, too... -dq From spc at conman.org Fri Oct 12 11:00:14 2001 From: spc at conman.org (Sean 'Captain Napalm' Conner) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:40 2005 Subject: OT: Dark Tower In-Reply-To: <281.685T2600T8535829optimus@canit.se> from "Iggy Drougge" at Oct 12, 2001 02:13:52 PM Message-ID: <200110121600.MAA26093@conman.org> It was thus said that the Great Iggy Drougge once stated: > > Sean 'Captain Napalm' Conner skrev: > > > -spc (And my colocated server is called tower ... even though it's > > not in a tower case ... ) > > Then it must be an NCR, right? Yes, you are correct. Not many people get the joke though. -spc (Up for 315 days and counting ... ) From dpeschel at eskimo.com Fri Oct 12 11:51:38 2001 From: dpeschel at eskimo.com (Derek Peschel) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:40 2005 Subject: OT: Dark Tower In-Reply-To: <200110121600.MAA26093@conman.org>; from spc@conman.org on Fri, Oct 12, 2001 at 12:00:14PM -0400 References: <281.685T2600T8535829optimus@canit.se> <200110121600.MAA26093@conman.org> Message-ID: <20011012095138.B3092@eskimo.eskimo.com> On Fri, Oct 12, 2001 at 12:00:14PM -0400, Sean 'Captain Napalm' Conner wrote: > It was thus said that the Great Iggy Drougge once stated: > > > > Sean 'Captain Napalm' Conner skrev: > > > > > -spc (And my colocated server is called tower ... even though it's > > > not in a tower case ... ) > > > > Then it must be an NCR, right? > > Yes, you are correct. > > Not many people get the joke though. Including me. Can you explain it? -- Derek From mythtech at Mac.com Fri Oct 12 13:02:38 2001 From: mythtech at Mac.com (Chris) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:40 2005 Subject: OT: Dark Tower Message-ID: > What exactly IS Dark Tower? I've heard of Dork Tower (a comic book) but >not Dark Tower. If you prefer to answer off list, that would be fine too >8-) Well, if the original poster was refering to what I had, then Dark Tower is a board game (circa late 70's early 80's). The board was this roundish board that you moved all over, and there was a dark brown plastic castle thing that sat in the middle. The object was, you were an adventurer, and you had to move about getting things (treasures?) from each land (4 lands, 4 players IIRC). When it was your turn, you would press a button on the tower (I think there was "pass" for do nothing, "move" to go somewhere). It would then spin (well, the inside would spin, the tower stayed still), and eventually stop, telling you if you ran into enemy's, or treasures, or whatever. If it was an enemy, you had to fight them, and it would track your possestions and army strength, and would tell you how you did (how many people died, how many of the enemy joined your ranks, if you got new possestions) Basically, it was a 4 player, board game version along the lines of D&D (and was out when D&D was in its hayday, something else I am afraid to admit I was in to.). I would be happy to pull mine out (I am sure it is in my parents basement still, I have to go over there today anyway to fix my mother's computer), and I can take some pics of it, and scan the directions if people want. Of course, maybe the original poster was refering to some other Dark Tower game, and I now look like a total ass (but the one I know of was really cool, so even if I just get to tell others about it, it was worth the typing). -chris From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Oct 12 13:20:24 2001 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:40 2005 Subject: Research Machines Information In-Reply-To: <3BC68811.D142B5D6@tinyworld.co.uk> from "Paul Williams" at Oct 12, 1 07:05:05 am Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 426 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20011012/ea27bf01/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Oct 12 13:16:02 2001 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:40 2005 Subject: Looking for : IBM 5110 Serial IO adapter software` In-Reply-To: from "Chris" at Oct 11, 1 10:35:52 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1321 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20011012/d7f14ebd/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Oct 12 13:18:54 2001 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:40 2005 Subject: Philbrick? In-Reply-To: <001b01c152d6$56f59aa0$21fe54a6@ibm23xhr06> from "John Allain" at Oct 12, 1 00:28:26 am Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 280 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20011012/1cdcf419/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Oct 12 13:39:53 2001 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:40 2005 Subject: SCSI pros & cons In-Reply-To: <3459.685T2600T8526253optimus@canit.se> from "Iggy Drougge" at Oct 12, 1 02:12:52 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 437 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20011012/35ee3613/attachment.ksh From optimus at canit.se Fri Oct 12 14:38:20 2001 From: optimus at canit.se (Iggy Drougge) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:40 2005 Subject: Sigma Designs OneReel Tape In-Reply-To: <7A9BACCEF0171D4FB77019F5104CDD372257CD@jeffserver.tegjeff.com> Message-ID: <480.685T1000T12385025optimus@canit.se> Douglas Quebbeman skrev: >Forgot to mention... >There were SCSI-interfaced Ethernet adapters for SCSI-equipped Macs... got >one of those, too... Those were common back then. Just about every Mac network business had its own SCSI ethernet adapters. It's a shame that there are no programming docs for those, since they would be quite useful for connecting old Ataris and Amigas, amongst others, to ethernets. -- En ligne avec Thor 2.6a. Hackers do it with fewer instructions. From optimus at canit.se Fri Oct 12 14:34:34 2001 From: optimus at canit.se (Iggy Drougge) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:40 2005 Subject: SCSI pros & cons In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20011012094514.0241e780@mail.30below.com> Message-ID: <4467.685T1700T12345289optimus@canit.se> Roger Merchberger skrev: >Rumor has it that Iggy Drougge may have mentioned these words: >>Glen Goodwin skrev: >> >> >One machine, or many? If you have a pile of cards, one machine, and none >> >of the cards work in that specific box, I'd suggest that there may be a >> >fault in the box, or another device in there which conflicts with your >> >SCSI cards. >> >>Who cares what the cause is? The point is that it won't work. >If the cause is the motherboard, you can't (justly) accuse the SCSI card of >being the problem... That's most probably not the case. >>I see that BIOS setup utility on the cards as a sympthom of the low level of >>integration. The cards behave as an alien entity in the computer. >With my job, one realizes that *every* card is an alien entity -- I've had >*much* less heartburn getting add-on SCSI cards to work compared to >PCI-based add-on IDE cards (which, BTW, have their own BIOS too - and a >much more useless one at that...) and you apparently have never gotten a >Sound Blaster Live MP3/5.1 card working under Windows 2000... It took me >over 4 hours to research that one, whereas my 4-year-old --ahem -- no >longer supported -- PCI Diamond MultiMedia Fireport 40 Ultra SCSI card >installed without a hitch... Should I envy you??;-) >> >> and they don't behave like the IDE hard drives. >> >> >Well, that's the point, right? ;>) >> >>Not really. IMO a drive is a drive is a drive is a drive. >You're certainly entitled to your opinion, but I cannot subscribe to that >point of view -- especially when I want my drive to do something a normal >drive isn't supposed to do. >And don't get me started on IDE 2.1 Orb Drives... Love the storage, *Hate* >the setup... (and XP doesn't support it yet...) SCSI "just plain works..." I'd never stand up for IDE. I only use it out of necessity, like everyone else. But I'm not so sure that my next drive will be an IDE. Not if I'm not getting a new IDE controller at the same time. >> >> They >> >> have their own little BIOSes and things which I'm not used to from other >> >> systems. >> >> >Those little BIOSes (the ones with a setup program) are a *big* advantage. >> >Just today I was cursing the fact that the BIOS on the ATA-66 controller I >> >was installing didn't have a setup program. It took me two hours to get >> >all six IDE drives working properly. With a decent SCSI card it would >> >have been 15 minutes, tops (barring any bad drives or cables). >> >>Why? I've never had any need for a SCSI BIOS on my SCSI computers. >And you won't until you need to boot from any drive that's not ID 0 on the >board (like booting from CD, etc...) That's just stupid. On my DECstation, I issue a boot command like: boot 6/rz2/netbsd to boot NetBSD from SCSI ID 2. If I'd like to boot Ultrix from ID 4 instead, I'd type boot 6/rz4/vmunix or something like that. On the Amiga, what matters is the boot priority of any particular drive or partition. That is independent of the SCSI or IDE ID. If I don't want to boot the device with the highest priority, I select another boot device in the Early Startup menu. And then we have PS/2s, which start booting at device 6 and work their way down. AFAIK, none of my SCSI machines have any SCSI device at unit 0, except for the PS/2s, where the controller is ID 0. Finding your boot device based on SCSI ID just sounds stupid. >>For example, the onboard IDE controller in the Amiga 4000 and 1200 appear to >>the system as scsi.device. And NetBSD/amiga only recently switched from "IDE >>on SCSI" to the machine-independent WDC device. =) >And the only way I can get my IDE 16X Plextor CD-RW to work under Linux is >with SCSI emulation - without it I end up with digital frizbees... >Thankfully, SCSI works for me! ;-) It should work for everyone except the wallet. =( And it just seems absolutely stupid that IDE has survived to this day. By now, IDE has evolved from the set of buffers on an ISA bus that it originally was into a beats which is almost as complex as SCSI, while still not nearly as flexible. At the same time, even though drives for both interfaces share more and more parts, SCSI has only become more and more expensive, and now it's not even an alternative for a lot of semi-professional applications. It's really absurd, and a testament to how the mass-market mechanisms are a very dangerous factor to development. -- En ligne avec Thor 2.6a. Life begins at '030. Fun begins at '040. Impotence begins at '86. From optimus at canit.se Fri Oct 12 14:42:21 2001 From: optimus at canit.se (Iggy Drougge) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:40 2005 Subject: OT: Dark Tower In-Reply-To: <200110121600.MAA26093@conman.org> Message-ID: <661.685T1050T12424775optimus@canit.se> Sean 'Captain Napalm' Conner skrev: >It was thus said that the Great Iggy Drougge once stated: >> >> Sean 'Captain Napalm' Conner skrev: >> >> > -spc (And my colocated server is called tower ... even though it's >> > not in a tower case ... ) >> >> Then it must be an NCR, right? > Yes, you are correct. Really? Tell us more. > Not many people get the joke though. I wasn't sure you'd get it, either. =) > -spc (Up for 315 days and counting ... ) Running what, where? (I like m68k things =) -- En ligne avec Thor 2.6a. G? med i SUGA, Swedish Usergroup of Amiga! WWW: http://swedish.usergroup.amiga.tm/ BBS: 08-6582572, telnet://sua.ath.cx:42512 From optimus at canit.se Fri Oct 12 14:22:52 2001 From: optimus at canit.se (Iggy Drougge) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:40 2005 Subject: SCSI pros & cons In-Reply-To: <3.0.2.32.20011012081811.01dc7620@obregon.multi.net.co> Message-ID: <1741.685T2600T12226549optimus@canit.se> Carlos Murillo skrev: >At 02:12 PM 10/12/01 +0100, you wrote: >>I see that BIOS setup utility on the cards as a sympthom of the low level of >>integration. The cards behave as an alien entity in the computer. >Which is exactly the point :-) . SCSI cards, unlike IDE subsystems, >are supposed to work by themselves and ease the burden >on the processor. This is considered a "good thing". Something which doesn't necessarily have to shine through in the user/OS interface. In this case, it's not due to the inner workings of SCSI, but rather the PC philosophy. >Like many others, I've not had problems with the Adaptec 2940 series. We sold ours. It worked, but was wasted on our SCSI setup after our last SCSI drive died. >I also like a CMD card that I have somewhere; it has a 72 pin SIMM >slot to increase the cache; at one point I had a 64MB SIMM there and >it helped the web server a lot. IBM had two 30-pin slots on their MCA SCSI cards. I like my Fastlane Z3 card. It's about the fastest Zorro3 SCSI card one might get, and it's got sixteen 30-pin SIMM slots for system memory expansion as well. =) >Do note that I tend to use HP, Sun, DEC or IBM scsi cables. >Mac cables have given me trouble before. I've not had much problem with cables. If a cable doesn't work, it's quite obvious, and I replace it. My DECstation runs with an HP cable now, and it works fine. A good testament to the marriage between the two companies. =) -- En ligne avec Thor 2.6a. Programming today is a race between software engineers striving to build bigger and better idiot-proof programs, and the universe trying to produce bigger and better idiots. So far, the universe is winning. -- Rick Cook, Mission Manager, NASA Mars Pathfinder Project From mythtech at Mac.com Fri Oct 12 13:51:28 2001 From: mythtech at Mac.com (Chris) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:40 2005 Subject: Free unknown keyboard Message-ID: Since I know people on this group like odd computer parts, I figured I would offer these here: I have 4 unknown keyboards available. They are tan and look like they might have come from some terminal system. They have a DB9 (DE9, ahh... D9) Male connector on it, and carry a part number 6246-A. No mention of who makes it, or what system they came from. I don't know if they work, I don't know anything about them at all. All 4 are rather dirty, and one of them is missing the key cap for what looks like two tildes and a backwards comma key. I recieved them as part of a ship test. (I work for a market research company, and one of the major shippers was doing a test with us, to see how the package made it thru shipping... so we recieved two shipments of 2 keyboards each... the shipper doesn't want them back) You can see a picture of one at . I will hang onto them until monday, but after that, they are being dumpstered. If anyone wants them, they are up for grabs, they would be mailed out of 07450. A single keyboard weighs 6 lbs, figure add another pound for the box and bubble wrap to be safe. I can take PayPal to cover shipping costs, or they can be picked up in Ridgewood, NJ. -chris From mikeford at socal.rr.com Fri Oct 12 13:28:30 2001 From: mikeford at socal.rr.com (Mike Ford) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:40 2005 Subject: IBM ROM BASIC or lack thereof In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: >I saw a component at a shop in Malaysia marked Intel 586 once. Many times >I've regretted not buying it just as a conversation piece. I always >wondered if that would have given me problems coming back into the US at >customs.... Cyrix sold their pentium clone as a 586, maybe others too. From mikeford at socal.rr.com Fri Oct 12 13:56:14 2001 From: mikeford at socal.rr.com (Mike Ford) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:40 2005 Subject: Levco Macintosh Transputer on Ebay In-Reply-To: <3BC702B2.6FCB6D84@olf.com> Message-ID: >Here is a link to a Levco Macintosh Transputer board on ebay. > >http://cgi.ebay.com/aw-cgi/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=1284357549 I have a pair of Mac SE with Levco accelerators in them, nothing fancy just 68030 I think. Lots of history on Levco, they were THE hot machine for about a year, but I can't find diddly on drivers. Neither SE I have will boot, but I am thinking maybe I should pull the drives and make backups as a next step. If anybody on this list is going to bid on that board, drop me an email and Iwon't snipe it. From jhellige at earthlink.net Fri Oct 12 14:59:38 2001 From: jhellige at earthlink.net (Jeff Hellige) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:40 2005 Subject: Sigma Designs OneReel Tape In-Reply-To: <480.685T1000T12385025optimus@canit.se> References: <480.685T1000T12385025optimus@canit.se> Message-ID: >Those were common back then. Just about every Mac network business had its own >SCSI ethernet adapters. >It's a shame that there are no programming docs for those, since they would be >quite useful for connecting old Ataris and Amigas, amongst others, to >ethernets. On a fast Amiga, it'd be interesting to see how such an adapter worked up Shapeshifter to hook up to an Appletalk network. I used to keep an Emplant Deluxe installed just for that purpose since it had two localtalk ports on it. I haven't bothered getting Shapeshifter working again on my new A3000. Maybe once I do I'll find one of those adapters and test it out. Jeff -- Home of the TRS-80 Model 2000 FAQ File http://www.cchaven.com http://www.geocities.com/siliconvalley/lakes/6757 From Innfogra at aol.com Fri Oct 12 15:09:59 2001 From: Innfogra at aol.com (Innfogra@aol.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:41 2005 Subject: Free unknown keyboard Message-ID: The keyboard is for Data General Terminals, I recognize it. I could possibly help IDing the terminal if anyone is interested. I have no interest but maybe some of the DG people on the list do. Paxton Astoria, OR -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20011012/da5f5176/attachment.html From korpela at ssl.berkeley.edu Fri Oct 12 15:46:19 2001 From: korpela at ssl.berkeley.edu (Eric J. Korpela) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:41 2005 Subject: ArcNet and the Pursuit of Multiple Topologies In-Reply-To: from John Ruschmeyer at "Oct 10, 2001 02:58:51 pm" Message-ID: <200110122046.NAA01163@ellie.ssl.berkeley.edu> > On the Ethernet side, I'd not worry about specific 10bT and ThickNet > segments. Instead, I'd run a single 10b2 (ThinNet) segment and get a 10bT > hub with a BNC uplink. This also had the advantage of saving you a slot in > the box. Don't worry about ThickNet, just pick up a couple of spare 10bT or > 10b2 tranceivers for the odd box with an AUI port. That's definitely the way to go. Just wired the house with Cat-5 this week. 10bT has the advantage that it's also 100bT with a change of equipment. (ISTR that you can use the unused pair in the cable for LocalTalk, but I haven't yet tried it). One of the ports off the switch goes to 10 Mbps equipment via a hub with a BNC uplink, the other three ports go to 100 Mbps segments. > Since you've got LocalTalk running to the box, then I'd also run MacGate > which would let you run MacIP (IP over LocalTalk). For those in the bay area with an Mac IIlc or a Nubus Mac II, last time I checked, Mike Quinn Electronics had a pile of ethernet cards for them. For those with older Macs, I saw two SCSI/ethernet boxes at WeirdStuff, didn't check the price, though. Eric From vze2mnvr at verizon.net Fri Oct 12 16:56:46 2001 From: vze2mnvr at verizon.net (Jan Koller) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:41 2005 Subject: SCSI pros & cons References: <4467.685T1700T12345289optimus@canit.se> Message-ID: <3BC7671E.EA21C8AF@verizon.net> Iggy Drougge wrote: > Why? I've never had any need for a SCSI BIOS on my SCSI computers. The onboard bios' diagnostics, low level formatting, and media verification, termination control, among other features, can be rather convenient. And you don't have to worry about overwriting the engineering track(s?) that some(all?) IDE has. You don't have the master/slave issues or incompatibilities that some IDE drives had with SCSI, you can do more devices per controller port in case, if for no other reason than, you want to. > I'd never stand up for IDE. I only use it out of necessity, like > everyone else. But I'm not so sure that my next drive will be an > IDE. Not if I'm not getting a new IDE controller at the same time. > At the same time, even though drives for both interfaces share more > and more parts, SCSI has only become more and more expensive, and > now it's not even an alternative for a lot of semi-professional > applications. If you don't like SCSI? And you don't like IDE? And you don't like expensive components? What are you going to use? only MFM and RLL? If you must have the latest SCSI interface technology, yes, you must "pay the man", but if you're willing to sacrifice a bit on performance, and go one or two steps back on SCSI hardware technology, there is nothing expensive about the parts. Plus, as it's been up till now, the best, newest, most expensive IDE performance level was only about par with that of whatever SCSI level was one generation back. From celigne at tinyworld.co.uk Fri Oct 12 17:09:08 2001 From: celigne at tinyworld.co.uk (Paul Williams) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:41 2005 Subject: Research Machines Information References: Message-ID: <3BC76A04.38CE52F1@tinyworld.co.uk> Tony Duell wrote: > > The 'information file' for either machine is a lot thicker than 11 > pages. On the other hand, there are 11 pages of schematics in the > 480Z information file (I have just checked). Is that what you have? Yes, because that's what you sent me. From optimus at canit.se Fri Oct 12 16:26:31 2001 From: optimus at canit.se (Iggy Drougge) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:41 2005 Subject: SCSI pros & cons In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <1298.685T1550T13464751optimus@canit.se> Tony Duell skrev: >> Who cares what the cause is? The point is that it won't work. >This comment worries me a lot (mind you, it's typical of the mentality of >PC-goons, but I thought this list was mostly hackers)... >Whenever something doesn't work, my first reaction is to fix it. And the >first stage in fixing a problem is to identify what that problem is (at >whatever level of detail is necessary to be able to decide on the right >repair). I have limited patience with some kind of hardware. Mending PCs is not a hobby of mine, and if it is the most common platform at the moment, I'll just assume that that's because it's such a nice and easy to use platform. There is so much to blame everything on in the PC world, but that's not my problem. It should at least work as fluently as any other platform. In short, I don't think some systems are deserving of my undivided attention. I'll rather go soldering on my Atari ethernet adapter or my C64 AV cable than fool around with so-called modern hardware which misbehaves. -- En ligne avec Thor 2.6a. - Lupin! Vart ska du? - Tar v?gen ?ver berget f?ljer gr?nsen s? kommer vi till havet. - Det ?r ju mer ?n 100 km. - Det ?r v?l ingenting. Jag tillh?r v?rldseliten jag. Lupin III den otrolige (Lupin III vs. fukusei ningen), TMS 1978 From optimus at canit.se Fri Oct 12 18:10:32 2001 From: optimus at canit.se (Iggy Drougge) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:41 2005 Subject: Sigma Designs OneReel Tape In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <1073.686T1600T104925optimus@canit.se> Jeff Hellige skrev: >>Those were common back then. Just about every Mac network business had its >>own SCSI ethernet adapters. It's a shame that there are no programming docs >>for those, since they would be quite useful for connecting old Ataris and >>Amigas, amongst others, to ethernets. > On a fast Amiga, it'd be interesting to see how such an >adapter worked up Shapeshifter to hook up to an Appletalk network. I >used to keep an Emplant Deluxe installed just for that purpose since >it had two localtalk ports on it. I haven't bothered getting >Shapeshifter working again on my new A3000. Maybe once I do I'll >find one of those adapters and test it out. That would be very interesting indeed. Emplant is also available for free nowadays, or at least it was a giveaway on some Amiga Format CD, so you could try that as well. I'd have done it myself, but my adapter refuses to work on any of my real Macs. -- En ligne avec Thor 2.6a. Sagt, ist noch ein Land, au?er Deutschland, wo man die Nase eher r?mpfen lernt als putzen? --- Georg Christoph Lichtenberg From optimus at canit.se Fri Oct 12 18:16:36 2001 From: optimus at canit.se (Iggy Drougge) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:41 2005 Subject: SCSI pros & cons In-Reply-To: <3BC7671E.EA21C8AF@verizon.net> Message-ID: <1947.686T1800T165549optimus@canit.se> Jan Koller skrev: >Iggy Drougge wrote: >> Why? I've never had any need for a SCSI BIOS on my SCSI computers. >The onboard bios' diagnostics, low level formatting, and media >verification, termination control, among other features, can be >rather convenient. And you don't have to worry about overwriting >the engineering track(s?) that some(all?) IDE has. Well, low-level formatting IDE drives is a stupid idea, I concur. =) >You don't have the master/slave issues or incompatibilities that >some IDE drives had ... >with SCSI, you can do more devices per controller port in >case, if for no other reason than, you want to. Why are you telling me this? >> I'd never stand up for IDE. I only use it out of necessity, like >> everyone else. But I'm not so sure that my next drive will be an >> IDE. Not if I'm not getting a new IDE controller at the same time. >> At the same time, even though drives for both interfaces share more >> and more parts, SCSI has only become more and more expensive, and >> now it's not even an alternative for a lot of semi-professional >> applications. >If you don't like SCSI? And you don't like IDE? And you don't like >expensive components? What are you going to use? only MFM and RLL? What the hell are you talking about? Please point out where I have expressed my dislike for SCSI. >If you must have the latest SCSI interface technology, yes, you >must "pay the man", but if you're willing to sacrifice a bit on >performance, and go one or two steps back on SCSI hardware technology, >there is nothing expensive about the parts. Plus, as it's >been up till now, the best, newest, most expensive IDE performance >level was only about par with that of whatever SCSI level was one >generation back. You're preaching to the already converted. =? -- En ligne avec Thor 2.6a. G? med i SUGA, Swedish Usergroup of Amiga! WWW: http://swedish.usergroup.amiga.tm/ BBS: 08-6582572, telnet://sua.ath.cx:42512 From jfoust at threedee.com Fri Oct 12 18:25:02 2001 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:41 2005 Subject: Fwd: [GreenKeys] Need help in the Denver area Message-ID: <4.3.2.7.0.20011012182347.02220e90@pc> Eric Smith is in trouble in the Denver area, if anyone can help... - John >Date: Fri, 12 Oct 2001 14:16:28 -0700 >To: greenkeys@qth.net >From: Don Robert House >Subject: [GreenKeys] Need help in the Denver area >Sender: owner-greenkeys@qth.net >Reply-To: Don Robert House > >Eric Smith is driving coast to coast to deliver some rare computer and teletype equipment. The U-Haul truck broke both rear springs. He needs to off load the truck in the Denver area and make arrangements to come back later with a different truck. Is there anyone out there that can help us out? >Eric's cell phone is: (408) 838 3733 > >Thanks for any leads, > >Don >-------------------------------------------------------- >Don Robert House, N.S.E. >Curator, NADCOMM >North American Data Communications Museum >3841 Reche Road >Fallbrook, CA 92028-3810 >760-723-9943 Office >760-723-9984 FAX >URL: http://www.nadcomm.org >e-mail: drhouse@nadcomm.org > > >---- >Submissions: greenkeys@qth.net From louiss at gate.net Fri Oct 12 21:33:17 2001 From: louiss at gate.net (Louis Schulman) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:41 2005 Subject: Micro Solutions Matchpoint-PC Card - Out there somewhere? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <200110130232.WAA02228@blount.mail.mindspring.net> I am looking for a Micro Solutions Matchpoint-PC Card with manual, etc. Buy or trade. Anyone have one they would care to part with? Thanks, Louis From curt at atari-history.com Fri Oct 12 21:37:39 2001 From: curt at atari-history.com (Curt Vendel) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:41 2005 Subject: Moving in 12 days.... References: <7A9BACCEF0171D4FB77019F5104CDD372256ED@jeffserver.tegjeff.com> <3B96A8E9.46A48881@agames.com> Message-ID: <00f001c15390$06e40f50$c2609040@syzygy2> Hi Sean, Wanted to update my information with you, I'm moving in my new house in 12 days, here's my new info: Curt Vendel 117 Duke Drive Carmel, NY 10512 (845)-225-9793 (voice) (845)-225-9794 (Fax) Curt From curt at atari-history.com Fri Oct 12 21:39:35 2001 From: curt at atari-history.com (Curt Vendel) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:41 2005 Subject: Ooops, sorry.... References: <7A9BACCEF0171D4FB77019F5104CDD372256ED@jeffserver.tegjeff.com> <3B96A8E9.46A48881@agames.com> Message-ID: <00f401c15390$4c002b00$c2609040@syzygy2> Ooopps... sorry about that I thought I was responding to someone I knew then realized just moments after I hit send, that the To: was the classic computing mailing list, well now I know who all those people will be crank calling me now. Curt From donm at cts.com Fri Oct 12 21:52:19 2001 From: donm at cts.com (Don Maslin) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:41 2005 Subject: SCSI pros & cons In-Reply-To: <3BC7671E.EA21C8AF@verizon.net> Message-ID: On Fri, 12 Oct 2001, Jan Koller wrote: > > > Iggy Drougge wrote: > > Why? I've never had any need for a SCSI BIOS on my SCSI computers. > > The onboard bios' diagnostics, low level formatting, and media > verification, termination control, among other features, can be > rather convenient. And you don't have to worry about overwriting > the engineering track(s?) that some(all?) IDE has. > > You don't have the master/slave issues or incompatibilities that > some IDE drives had > > with SCSI, you can do more devices per controller port in > case, if for no other reason than, you want to. > > > I'd never stand up for IDE. I only use it out of necessity, like > > everyone else. But I'm not so sure that my next drive will be an > > IDE. Not if I'm not getting a new IDE controller at the same time. > > > At the same time, even though drives for both interfaces share more > > and more parts, SCSI has only become more and more expensive, and > > now it's not even an alternative for a lot of semi-professional > > applications. > > If you don't like SCSI? And you don't like IDE? And you don't like > expensive components? What are you going to use? only MFM and RLL? I think a better comparison would substitute ST-506 and ESDI for MFM and RLL. - don > If you must have the latest SCSI interface technology, yes, you > must "pay the man", but if you're willing to sacrifice a bit on > performance, and go one or two steps back on SCSI hardware technology, > there is nothing expensive about the parts. Plus, as it's > been up till now, the best, newest, most expensive IDE performance > level was only about par with that of whatever SCSI level was one > generation back. > From acme_ent at bellsouth.net Fri Oct 12 23:19:33 2001 From: acme_ent at bellsouth.net (Glen Goodwin) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:41 2005 Subject: SCSI pros & cons Message-ID: <20011013042119.PHZY17433.imf06bis.bellsouth.net@thegoodw> I wrote: > > If you have a pile of cards, one machine, and none > >of the cards work in that specific box, I'd suggest that there may be a > >fault in the box, or another device in there which conflicts with your SCSI > >cards. Iggy replied: > Who cares what the cause is? The point is that it won't work. ??? Well, *I* care what the cause is. If you put a piece of hardware in a system and it doesn't work, don't you want to know why??? I don't understand this. > I see that BIOS setup utility on the cards as a sympthom of the low level of > integration. The cards behave as an alien entity in the computer. ??? Okay, so you have to integrate the card into the system yourself, and that setup utility gives you the information and control you need to do it. Alien entity? What do you mean??? Glen 0/0 From acme_ent at bellsouth.net Fri Oct 12 23:37:46 2001 From: acme_ent at bellsouth.net (Glen Goodwin) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:41 2005 Subject: SCSI pros & cons Message-ID: <20011012062803.MLGU29662.imf18bis.bellsouth.net@thegoodw> > > Who cares what the cause is? The point is that it won't work. > > This comment worries me a lot (mind you, it's typical of the mentality of > PC-goons, but I thought this list was mostly hackers)... > > Whenever something doesn't work, my first reaction is to fix it. And the > first stage in fixing a problem is to identify what that problem is (at > whatever level of detail is necessary to be able to decide on the right > repair). > > -tony I'm with you, Tony. From what Iggy wrote it appeared that he stuck a bunch of boards in a system, didn't get the results he expected, and just gave up. I simply do not understand this sort of thinking. Aren't we supposed to be the ones in control of the machines??? Glen 0/0 From cmurillo at emtelsa.multi.net.co Fri Oct 12 23:06:21 2001 From: cmurillo at emtelsa.multi.net.co (Carlos Murillo) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:41 2005 Subject: RS6000 7012-320H In-Reply-To: <3.0.2.32.20010928232334.01ce8928@obregon.multi.net.co> Message-ID: <3.0.2.32.20011013000621.01e023ec@obregon.multi.net.co> Today I finally had time to play with the Powerserver 320H that I found a few days ago. I disassembled the thing and circumvented the keylock switch issue (I was able to pull the keylock pistons away without destroying anything) and plugged a terminal to it in serial port #1. 1) It boots. The numeric diagnostic LEDs on front go through lots of messages, the HD spins up and does quite some work, I assume it checks the filesystems and so on. Finally, some initialization messages appear on the terminal; they seem to report on the very last stage of the rc script sequence (like bringing up tcp/ip and the like). I think that the serial console is recognized only after it switches to some multi-user run level. 2) It runs AIX version 3. 3) The SIMMs that I had talked about worked in this machine, so now it has 32MB instead of the original 16MB. 4) the login msg reads something like IBM AIX version 3 RS6000 (C) 1989, 1990 Console Login: How do I get inside? Carlos. At 11:23 PM 9/28/01 -0400,I wrote: >Today I came by an RS6000 7012-320H (Powerserver 320). >On topic, since it was introduced in '91. >It seems to have 16MB RAM, a SCSI card, an 800MB HD, >25MHZ cpu and a 8-port serial card. No framebuffer. >There was an 8mm tape unit that came with it. Oh, and, >from what I can gather from the IBM web site, it is >missing some sort of "ethernet riser card" which seems >to provide the means to drive enet starting from a >network header on the mainboard. I should be getting >some of the terminals that were hooked to this >beast. However, I have neither keys nor AIX install >media. So I have several questions: > >1) Which OS' (besides some old version of AIX) run on this > box? Or, if I am stuck with AIX, in addition to > praying that the HD is still alive, how could I > break in and change the root password? > >2) What exactly is this "ethernet riser card"? Do I have > a network-less system? > >3) Late last year, I posted a message to this list about > some SIMMs that I grabbed off an AS400 system; they > look like 72pin SIMMs but have a slightly different > form factor and won't fit in a standard 72 pin socket. > The thing is, they seem to fit the sockets in this > system. And, that AS400 was equipped with exactly the > same model of HD that this RS6000 has. So I am > wondering if those 4MB SIMMS will fit this system, > which is filled with 2MB SIMMS... > >carlos. > > >-------------------------------------------------------------- >Carlos E. Murillo-Sanchez carlos_murillo@nospammers.ieee.org -------------------------------------------------------------- Carlos E. Murillo-Sanchez carlos_murillo@nospammers.ieee.org From technos at nerdland.org Sat Oct 13 00:28:12 2001 From: technos at nerdland.org (Jim Tuck) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:41 2005 Subject: Moving in 12 days.... Message-ID: <01C15386.536733C0.technos@nerdland.org> Unless you've got a stockpile of DEC and/or Atari you haven't shared, your number is safe with us. Jim On Friday, October 12, 2001 10:38 PM, Curt Vendel [SMTP:curt@atari-history.com] wrote: > Hi Sean, > > Wanted to update my information with you, I'm moving in my new house in 12 > days, here's my new info: > > Curt Vendel > 117 Duke Drive > Carmel, NY 10512 > (845)-225-9793 (voice) > (845)-225-9794 (Fax) > > > Curt From technos at nerdland.org Sat Oct 13 00:32:28 2001 From: technos at nerdland.org (Jim Tuck) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:41 2005 Subject: Radio shack TRS-80 PC-1 and PC-2 Message-ID: <01C15386.EBDA4D40.technos@nerdland.org> Welp, have managed to reach the fellow who wrote the conversion utilities for these fine calculators.. And got a very nice pointer to pretty much all I would ever want to know about them. Now I get to start on a Linux kernel driver to make them appear as serial devices.. A couple hundred baud fake serial connect over /dev/dsp is looking mighty feasable.. I *WILL* IRC from one of these, goddamnit.. Jim From hans at Huebner.ORG Sat Oct 13 01:14:31 2001 From: hans at Huebner.ORG (=?ISO-8859-1?Q?Hans_H=FCbner?=) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:41 2005 Subject: RS6000 7012-320H In-Reply-To: <3.0.2.32.20011013000621.01e023ec@obregon.multi.net.co> Message-ID: On Sat, 13 Oct 2001, Carlos Murillo wrote: > 4) the login msg reads something like > IBM AIX version 3 RS6000 (C) 1989, 1990 > Console Login: > > How do I get inside? You'll have to resort to trial and error. There is no way to boot the machine into a single user shell without an external boot device (and this will be hard to find, as detailed in earlier messages). You can also try to get into the machine through the network. I once managed to do this by faking a NIS server and serving a root account through NIS, but I was lucky because NIS was enabled on the machine (a RS6k/340H running AIX 3.2.1). Connect the box to a network and use tcpdump to see whether it has any network services running which you might exploit. Regards, Hans -- finger hans@huebner.org for details From claudew at videotron.ca Sat Oct 13 02:19:08 2001 From: claudew at videotron.ca (Claude.W) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:41 2005 Subject: RS6000 7012-320H References: Message-ID: <004a01c153b7$593439c0$0200a8c0@gamerclaude> Hi Wait, I think booting with the floppy diag disks will get you in there.... If I remember correctly, thats how I did it with mine, but I dont remember all... I still have the images somewhere around here... Claude ----- Original Message ----- From: "Hans H?bner" To: Sent: Saturday, October 13, 2001 2:14 AM Subject: Re: RS6000 7012-320H > On Sat, 13 Oct 2001, Carlos Murillo wrote: > > > 4) the login msg reads something like > > IBM AIX version 3 RS6000 (C) 1989, 1990 > > Console Login: > > > > How do I get inside? > > You'll have to resort to trial and error. There is no way to boot the machine > into a single user shell without an external boot device (and this will be > hard to find, as detailed in earlier messages). > > You can also try to get into the machine through the network. I once managed > to do this by faking a NIS server and serving a root account through NIS, but > I was lucky because NIS was enabled on the machine (a RS6k/340H running AIX > 3.2.1). Connect the box to a network and use tcpdump to see whether it has > any network services running which you might exploit. > > Regards, > Hans > > -- > finger hans@huebner.org for details > From mranalog at home.com Sat Oct 13 02:27:45 2001 From: mranalog at home.com (Doug Coward) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:41 2005 Subject: Philbrick? Message-ID: <3BC7ECF1.4908C174@home.com> John Allain wrote: > While cleaning up some garage space (yes, so a Car could > go in there) I came across a cache of some things I knew I > had and one thing I forgot. > A 2 tube module.from George A. Philbrick Researches Inc. > It's a GAP/R K2-W with "computor" tubes in it. > > Before anybody vomits (as regards computor) could > somebody remind me who Philbrick was? > The name seems familliar. TIA 1946 George A. Philbrick Researches Inc. (GAP/R) founded by George Arthur Philbrick, electronic analog computer pioneer. The company produced many innovating electronic analog computer designs. During the 50's and early 60's they had the opamp market pretty much all sewn up. 1966 Merged into Teledyne Philbrick Nexus, Which became Teledyne Philbrick, Which became Teledyne Components, 1993 Became TelCom Semiconductor. The K2-W was the first commercially available opamp. Open loop gain of 15,000. Power requirements are 4.5 ma at +300VDC and -300 VDC, and .6 amp at 6.3 volts AC or DC (tube heaters). Input and output voltage range -50VDC to +50VDC. Input current is less than .1ua. Early ones had a case of brown bakelite, later ones had a grey plastic case. I can send you a data sheet. Regards, --Doug ========================================= Doug Coward @ home in Poulsbo, WA Analog Computer Online Museum and History Center http://www.best.com/~dcoward/analog ========================================= From philpem at bigfoot.com Sat Oct 13 03:33:31 2001 From: philpem at bigfoot.com (Philip Pemberton) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:41 2005 Subject: Phonemark/Entrepo Quick Data Drive Message-ID: <001001c153c1$be332160$bfb07ad5@phoenix> Hi, My old Citizen 120D+ is back from the dead (thanks to some 0.71mm tinned copper wire and a bit of fiddling with my soldering iron) and I've got another query. A while ago I got a Phonemark "Quick Data Drive", aparrently made by Entrepo. It uses small endless-loop tape cartridges called "Wafers" (any relation to the Rotronics Wafadrive? hmm...). Without the Master QOS Wafer or the blank wafer that were supposed to come with it. Anyone care to tell me where I can get these tapes? Also, without the QOS wafer, I can't get my VIC-20 to work with it. Anyone want to hook a QDD up to a PC and transfer QOS to a T64 (tape) file for me? I've had the cover off, and it appears to use a small-ish black plastic mechanism with "BSR" printed on it. This mechanism looks (from the front) exactly like the ones on the Rotronics Wafadrive. Anyone know if Wafadrive cartridges will work with it? Anyone know where to get Wafadrive cartridges? I _know_ this thing will work on a VIC-20, but without the QOS wafer or a blank wafer I'm stuck. Is the tape inside these carts normal C-30 "Computer Tape"? Anyone care to sacrifice one and take pictures and measurements? A 2D CAD drawing of the tape would be nice (I can get good-quality C60s relatively easily, I just need to know how the wafers are assembled). Thanks again. -- Phil. philpem@bigfoot.com http://www.philpem.f9.co.uk/ From philpem at bigfoot.com Sat Oct 13 03:35:28 2001 From: philpem at bigfoot.com (Philip Pemberton) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:41 2005 Subject: [possibly OT]: Citizen 120D+ interface connector and Acorn System questions Message-ID: <001e01c153c2$0420bde0$bfb07ad5@phoenix> On Thu, 11 Oct 2001 23:06:34 +0100 (BST) ard@p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) wrote: > > BTW, anyone got a schematic for the Acorn Teletext Video card for the Acorn > > System-series machines? > > Is this some kind of trick question? Yes, I have it, open in front of me. > Got most of the other System schematics as well... Would you mind scanning and uploading the Teletext Video Card schematics for me? Preferably in PNG or some other lossless format at +/-300DPI. Thanks. -- Phil. philpem@bigfoot.com http://www.philpem.f9.co.uk/ From pete at dunnington.u-net.com Sat Oct 13 05:34:34 2001 From: pete at dunnington.u-net.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:41 2005 Subject: ArcNet and the Pursuit of Multiple Topologies In-Reply-To: "Eric J. Korpela" "Re: ArcNet and the Pursuit of Multiple Topologies" (Oct 12, 13:46) References: <200110122046.NAA01163@ellie.ssl.berkeley.edu> Message-ID: <10110131134.ZM11125@mindy.dunnington.u-net.com> On Oct 12, 13:46, Eric J. Korpela wrote: > Just wired the house with Cat-5 this week. 10bT has the advantage that it's > also 100bT with a change of equipment. (ISTR that you can use the > unused pair in the cable for LocalTalk, but I haven't yet tried it). That's true, you can run all sorts of things over Cat5 "structured wiring", in fact that's the point of structured wiring. 10baseT uses two pairs (pins 1+2, 3+6), the phone uses the centre pair (pins 4+5). ISDN uses all four pairs. Serial lines use either the middle pairs (for Tx/Rx) or all four (DTR/DSR, Tx, Rx, RTS/CTS) if they follow the DEC (and other) system. Some use the same pairs as Ethernet (which means a crossover cable for Ethernet also works as a null-modem for Tx/Rx on serial lines). 100baseTX uses the same pairs as 10baseT. You're not supposed to run a phone line (pins 4+5) on the same cable as an Ethernet (pins 1+2, 3+6); it breaks the spec. However, you'll normally get away with it with 10baseT, and it *may* work for 100baseTX over short distances. It certainly won't work for 100baseT4 (does anybody still have any of that?) or 1000baseTX (Gigabit) because they use all four pairs. Nevertheless, you can buy little boxes which are essentially a Y-piece for phone+10baseT -- you need one at each end of the cable. They consist of a small box with two RJ45 sockets and a short Cat 5 lead ending in an RJ45 plug. You can also get similar boxes to combine/separate two 10baseT signals (they move the second signal from pins 1+2 and 3+6 onto 4+5 and 7+8) and ones to simply double up the sockets (pin 1 to pin 1 to pin 1; ... ; pin 8 to pin 8 to pin 8) which are sometimes used for ISDN. For some reason they tend to be different prices, and all overpriced (over here they cost ?8 - ?15, though you can make one for about ?3 including the cost of the box to put the PCB in). I'd be wary of running Localtalk over a cable carying a phone or Ethernet signal. Again, it might work, but it will probably generate interference which might be hard to track down -- I write from experience[1]. Better to use one cable for one service at a time. The real reason for using different pairs for different services is partly serendipity, and partly to avoid damage if you plug the wrong device into a cable which is already connected to something incompatible at the other end. In my workshop and study I have quite a lot of Cat5 (actually Cat5e, the Cat5 standard is officially obsolete) which I use for 10baseT, 100baseTX, serial lines, ISDN, a phone line, and even the audio to the speakers. I'm about to add a couple of Econet adapters, and I'll probably use it for some LocalTalk (PhoneTalk) when I get round to sorting out the non-Ethernet Macs. [1] More than one bad experience, but exemplified by the occasion when I had to make a trip to Northern Ireland with a couple of technical staff from Acorn to visit some schools who had networking problems. The school staff insisted everything was done to the standard, but it turned out that their erratic network problems were due to putting LocalTalk down the existing network cables. It had worked for a while, but when they extended the networks, both suffered. -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager University of York From jhellige at earthlink.net Sat Oct 13 07:35:08 2001 From: jhellige at earthlink.net (Jeff Hellige) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:41 2005 Subject: Radio shack TRS-80 PC-1 and PC-2 In-Reply-To: <01C15386.EBDA4D40.technos@nerdland.org> References: <01C15386.EBDA4D40.technos@nerdland.org> Message-ID: >Welp, have managed to reach the fellow who wrote the conversion utilities for >these fine calculators.. And got a very nice pointer to pretty much >all I would >ever want to know about them. Now I get to start on a Linux kernel driver to >make them appear as serial devices.. A couple hundred baud fake serial >connect over /dev/dsp is looking mighty feasable.. > >I *WILL* IRC from one of these, goddamnit.. Jim, I think I still have one of the printer expansions for the PC-2. If you could use it, I'll look for it? Jeff -- Home of the TRS-80 Model 2000 FAQ File http://www.cchaven.com http://www.geocities.com/siliconvalley/lakes/6757 From spectre at stockholm.ptloma.edu Sat Oct 13 09:12:38 2001 From: spectre at stockholm.ptloma.edu (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:41 2005 Subject: Radio shack TRS-80 PC-1 and PC-2 In-Reply-To: <01C15386.EBDA4D40.technos@nerdland.org> from Jim Tuck at "Oct 13, 1 01:32:28 am" Message-ID: <200110131412.HAA08328@stockholm.ptloma.edu> > Welp, have managed to reach the fellow who wrote the conversion utilities for > these fine calculators.. And got a very nice pointer to pretty much all I > would > ever want to know about them. Now I get to start on a Linux kernel driver to > make them appear as serial devices.. A couple hundred baud fake serial > connect over /dev/dsp is looking mighty feasable.. I'd love to hear how this worked. I've got a PC-3 and PC-4 in my stable. Care to explain in greater detail how you're connecting/communicating with them? -- ----------------------------- personal page: http://www.armory.com/~spectre/ -- Cameron Kaiser, Point Loma Nazarene University * ckaiser@stockholm.ptloma.edu -- UBAX vs lbh ybir EBG-13 ---------------------------------------------------- From cmcmanis at mcmanis.com Sat Oct 13 11:20:50 2001 From: cmcmanis at mcmanis.com (Chuck McManis) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:41 2005 Subject: Philbrick? In-Reply-To: <3BC7ECF1.4908C174@home.com> Message-ID: <5.0.0.25.2.20011013092023.026eeeb0@209.185.79.193> At 12:27 AM 10/13/01 -0700, you wrote: >1946 George A. Philbrick Researches Inc. (GAP/R) founded > by George Arthur Philbrick, electronic analog computer > pioneer. The company produced many innovating electronic > analog computer designs. During the 50's and early 60's > they had the opamp market pretty much all sewn up. >1966 Merged into Teledyne Philbrick Nexus, > Which became Teledyne Philbrick, > Which became Teledyne Components, >1993 Became TelCom Semiconductor. 2000 was acquired by MicroChip --Chuck From nicko at hal-pc.org Sat Oct 13 12:00:27 2001 From: nicko at hal-pc.org (no) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:41 2005 Subject: RS6000 7012-320H References: <3.0.2.32.20011013000621.01e023ec@obregon.multi.net.co> Message-ID: <3BC8732B.8E72311B@hal-pc.org> Carlos Murillo wrote: > > Today I finally had time to play with the Powerserver 320H > that I found a few days ago. I disassembled the thing and > circumvented the keylock switch issue (I was able to pull the > keylock pistons away without destroying anything) and plugged > a terminal to it in serial port #1. > I have the powerserver 370 and wound up cutting the wires to the keyswitch. Jumpering the red (5v) to the white enabled me to boot up in maintenance mode and play around with boot selects. Unfortunately, i've had no luck in booting anything from my (IBM) dds2 tape drive or from my AIX cd on a (non-IBM) cd drive. > >2) What exactly is this "ethernet riser card"? Do I have > > a network-less system? > > My ethernet card sits adj to the power supply, is about 4" by 4" with a card-edge connector about 1" long. If this is what you need I have a spare from my 7012-370 which you can have. I tried to give this box away in my recent 'garagesale' but no takers. -nick oliviero From allain at panix.com Sat Oct 13 12:43:42 2001 From: allain at panix.com (John Allain) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:41 2005 Subject: Philbrick? References: <754.684T2350T9756447optimus@canit.se> <001b01c152d6$56f59aa0$21fe54a6@ibm23xhr06> Message-ID: <003401c1540e$9a03cc20$8a0101ac@ibm23xhr06> I appreciate all the responses. So why computor tubes and not computer? I guess it's possible that the tubes were replacements and weren't spec with what GAP meant to use. John A. From donm at cts.com Sat Oct 13 12:49:38 2001 From: donm at cts.com (Don Maslin) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:41 2005 Subject: H88 kit available In-Reply-To: <20011012062803.MLGU29662.imf18bis.bellsouth.net@thegoodw> Message-ID: I have a Heath Digital Computer kit Model H88 that is available for shipping costs only. Approximately 6# from 92037. Kit is perhaps a misnomer as the cards appear to have been factory wave soldered. The box contains the following: 85-2208-1 Z80 motherboard 8255C Dual port serial card 85-2218-1 Cassette I/O card Assembly manual Operation manual Misc schematics Misc cables Old invoices and brochures Anyone interested, respond OFF LIST. First come first served. - don From sieler at allegro.com Sat Oct 13 13:15:57 2001 From: sieler at allegro.com (Stan Sieler) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:41 2005 Subject: Looking for : IBM 5110 Serial IO adapter software In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <3BC8226D.32013.94A7C92@localhost> Re: > Are the 5110's of any collector value (not that I would ever part with > mine, but I am curious if it is just me that wants to keep it, or if it The ones with APL seem to be harder to find than the ones with BASIC :( (I'm looking for a working APL model of 5100, 5110, or 5120 ... can trade BASIC model of 5110 or 5120) Stan Stan Sieler sieler@allegro.com www.allegro.com/sieler/wanted/index.html www.allegro.com/sieler From chobbs at socal.rr.com Sat Oct 13 13:13:59 2001 From: chobbs at socal.rr.com (charles hobbs) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:41 2005 Subject: RetroX computer shop in London... References: <200110122046.NAA01163@ellie.ssl.berkeley.edu> <10110131134.ZM11125@mindy.dunnington.u-net.com> Message-ID: <3BC88467.22A858A1@socal.rr.com> Anyone ever go there? I did last week, on a visit...lots of real old 8-bit software (Atari, Commodore, Dragon, etc) and some hardware, although they seem to be a bit expensive as far as hardware is concerned (50 UKP--about US$75 for a BBC micro disk drive, for example) Interesting store, though...there is a rickety spiral staircase to the dunge...oops, basement, and it feels as if more than one person at a time shouldn't be on it. I bought a moldy copy of Synther-7 for the Dragon there for about 1 UKP... don't know if it'll even work (they wouldn't guarantee it...and even if they did, why bother?) From chobbs at socal.rr.com Sat Oct 13 13:15:44 2001 From: chobbs at socal.rr.com (charles hobbs) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:41 2005 Subject: Batteries expensive in England? References: <200110122046.NAA01163@ellie.ssl.berkeley.edu> <10110131134.ZM11125@mindy.dunnington.u-net.com> Message-ID: <3BC884D0.87CEDB9@socal.rr.com> I needed about 4 D-cells for my radio (didn't want to mess around with adapters and such), so I looked around the various shops, supermarkets, etc. All seemed to be high...4-D cells, which would cost about $5 or so in the US, was UKP 8, or about $12 in London. Did I miss anything here? From edick at idcomm.com Sat Oct 13 13:48:41 2001 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:41 2005 Subject: Batteries expensive in England? References: <200110122046.NAA01163@ellie.ssl.berkeley.edu> <10110131134.ZM11125@mindy.dunnington.u-net.com> <3BC884D0.87CEDB9@socal.rr.com> Message-ID: <001c01c15417$add234e0$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> Panasonic (?) batteries, D-cells, sell for $1.00 a pair at the "dollar store" next door to my local post office. These are about as low-priced as I've seen, but $5 for 4 of them seems a bit high. Dick ----- Original Message ----- From: "charles hobbs" To: Sent: Saturday, October 13, 2001 12:15 PM Subject: Batteries expensive in England? > > I needed about 4 D-cells for my radio (didn't want to mess around with > adapters and such), so I looked around the various shops, supermarkets, etc. > > All seemed to be high...4-D cells, which would cost about $5 or so in the US, > was UKP 8, or about $12 in London. > > Did I miss anything here? > > > From cmurillo at emtelsa.multi.net.co Sat Oct 13 08:39:58 2001 From: cmurillo at emtelsa.multi.net.co (Carlos Murillo) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:41 2005 Subject: RS6000 7012-320H In-Reply-To: References: <3.0.2.32.20011013000621.01e023ec@obregon.multi.net.co> Message-ID: <3.0.2.32.20011013093958.01df9b7c@obregon.multi.net.co> At 08:14 AM 10/13/01 +0200, Hans wrote: >> IBM AIX version 3 RS6000 (C) 1989, 1990 >> Console Login: >> How do I get inside? > >You'll have to resort to trial and error. There is no way to boot the machine >into a single user shell without an external boot device (and this will be >hard to find, as detailed in earlier messages). Oh. Someone had said something about floppies before... >You can also try to get into the machine through the network. I once managed >to do this by faking a NIS server and serving a root account through NIS, but >I was lucky because NIS was enabled on the machine (a RS6k/340H running AIX >3.2.1). Connect the box to a network and use tcpdump to see whether it has >any network services running which you might exploit. Unfortunately, I don't have the "ethernet riser card" for this, so I'm network-less. carlos. -------------------------------------------------------------- Carlos E. Murillo-Sanchez carlos_murillo@nospammers.ieee.org From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat Oct 13 14:06:12 2001 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:41 2005 Subject: Radio shack TRS-80 PC-1 and PC-2 In-Reply-To: <01C15386.EBDA4D40.technos@nerdland.org> from "Jim Tuck" at Oct 13, 1 01:32:28 am Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1453 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20011013/7cdc84fd/attachment.ksh From vance at ikickass.org Sat Oct 13 14:09:14 2001 From: vance at ikickass.org (One Without Reason) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:41 2005 Subject: Batteries expensive in England? In-Reply-To: <3BC884D0.87CEDB9@socal.rr.com> Message-ID: Batteries are indeed expensive in England. I had the same problem with several different sizes when I was there. Peace... Sridhar On Sat, 13 Oct 2001, charles hobbs wrote: > > I needed about 4 D-cells for my radio (didn't want to mess around with > adapters and such), so I looked around the various shops, supermarkets, etc. > > All seemed to be high...4-D cells, which would cost about $5 or so in the US, > was UKP 8, or about $12 in London. > > Did I miss anything here? > > From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat Oct 13 14:11:05 2001 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:41 2005 Subject: RetroX computer shop in London... In-Reply-To: <3BC88467.22A858A1@socal.rr.com> from "charles hobbs" at Oct 13, 1 11:13:59 am Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 373 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20011013/a3bd1ffc/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat Oct 13 14:14:18 2001 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:41 2005 Subject: Batteries expensive in England? In-Reply-To: <3BC884D0.87CEDB9@socal.rr.com> from "charles hobbs" at Oct 13, 1 11:15:44 am Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 813 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20011013/87b6bd66/attachment.ksh From celigne at tinyworld.co.uk Sat Oct 13 14:31:25 2001 From: celigne at tinyworld.co.uk (Paul Williams) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:41 2005 Subject: Research Machines Information References: <579AC59C515DD211B38B00A0C9B22928B79DDE@HEMESC.sema.co.uk> Message-ID: <3BC8968D.3C73848A@tinyworld.co.uk> "HARDY, Simon" wrote: > > Desperately seeking any 480z or 380z manuals or other information, > online, original or photocopy. I've scanned the schematics from the 480Z Information File and put them online. However, they are hand-drawn, so I've had to scan them in grayscale at 300dpi in order to be readable. http://vt100.net/rm/480z/schematics/ From hansp at aconit.org Sat Oct 13 14:54:53 2001 From: hansp at aconit.org (Hans B Pufal) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:41 2005 Subject: Looking for : IBM 5110 Serial IO adapter software References: <3BC8226D.32013.94A7C92@localhost> Message-ID: <3BC89C0D.90507@aconit.org> Stan Sieler wrote: > Re: > >>Are the 5110's of any collector value (not that I would ever part with >>mine, but I am curious if it is just me that wants to keep it, or if it >> > > The ones with APL seem to be harder to find than the ones with > BASIC :( > > (I'm looking for a working APL model of 5100, 5110, or 5120 ... > can trade BASIC model of 5110 or 5120) Ours is an APL model - sorry not available. Surely the dual APL/Basic are even rarer? -- HBP From korpela at ssl.berkeley.edu Sat Oct 13 15:10:23 2001 From: korpela at ssl.berkeley.edu (Eric J. Korpela) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:41 2005 Subject: ArcNet and the Pursuit of Multiple Topologies In-Reply-To: <10110131134.ZM11125@mindy.dunnington.u-net.com> from Pete Turnbull at "Oct 13, 2001 10:34:34 am" Message-ID: <200110132010.f9DKAO324118@jill.ssl.berkeley.edu> > 100baseTX uses the same pairs as 10baseT. > I thought that 100bTX uses 3 pairs for full duplex (at least my wiring instructions say it uses 1+2 3+6 and 4+5.) Have I gotten some misinformation? Eric From mac at Wireless.Com Sat Oct 13 15:40:22 2001 From: mac at Wireless.Com (Mike Cheponis) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:41 2005 Subject: Eric Smith asked me to post this Message-ID: Hi, Eric Smith, currently stuck in Colorado with a large truck full of classic stuff has asked me to post this. (He doesn't have net access.) He appreciates the outpourings of concern, and wishes to communicate that all appears to be under control now. The springs are being repaired on the truck and he should be able to finish the journey. Thanks everybody for your concern. -Mike (for Eric) From pete at dunnington.u-net.com Sat Oct 13 16:37:54 2001 From: pete at dunnington.u-net.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:41 2005 Subject: ArcNet and the Pursuit of Multiple Topologies In-Reply-To: "Eric J. Korpela" "Re: ArcNet and the Pursuit of Multiple Topologies" (Oct 13, 13:10) References: <200110132010.f9DKAO324118@jill.ssl.berkeley.edu> Message-ID: <10110132237.ZM11408@mindy.dunnington.u-net.com> On Oct 13, 13:10, Eric J. Korpela wrote: > > 100baseTX uses the same pairs as 10baseT. > > > I thought that 100bTX uses 3 pairs for full duplex (at least my > wiring instructions say it uses 1+2 3+6 and 4+5.) Have I gotten some > misinformation? Yes, I'm afraid you have! 100baseTX uses the same pairs as 10baseT, no more, no less. 4+5 are definitely not used. However, they are used (along with 7+8) for 100baseT4, which uses a different encoding and modulation scheme to permit 100Mb/s operation over lower-grade cable, using all 4 pairs, and similarly 1000baseTX uses all four pairs. Nothing I know of (certainly no standard Ethernet technique) uses three pairs. In 100baseTX full-duplex (and 10baseT full-duplex which is an extension of the older standard, not always supported) the same pairs are used for transmit and receive as in half-duplex. The only difference is that both pairs are allowed to be active at the same time (which would be counted as a collision otherwise). -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager University of York From mythtech at Mac.com Sat Oct 13 16:54:07 2001 From: mythtech at Mac.com (Chris) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:41 2005 Subject: Looking for : IBM 5110 Serial IO adapter software Message-ID: >>>Are the 5110's of any collector value (not that I would ever part with >>>mine, but I am curious if it is just me that wants to keep it, or if it >>> >> >> The ones with APL seem to be harder to find than the ones with >> BASIC :( >> >> (I'm looking for a working APL model of 5100, 5110, or 5120 ... >> can trade BASIC model of 5110 or 5120) > > >Ours is an APL model - sorry not available. > >Surely the dual APL/Basic are even rarer? Know what... mine might be a dual! I remember using Basic on it, and there is a front switch to go between basic and something else. I would have said mine was basic only, but just friday, while cleaning out some old stuff, I came across the APL manuals for the 5110... so that would sure tell me mine is a dual (I only have the one, so the APL stuff didn't go it a different machine). And nope, mine isn't available either.... except maybe in trade for a new pickup truck... I am in desperate need for one of those. -chris From jfmiller at nc.rr.com Sat Oct 13 18:38:42 2001 From: jfmiller at nc.rr.com (John Miller) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:41 2005 Subject: classiccmp-digest v1 #690 Message-ID: <01C1541E.AB11D830.jfmiller@nc.rr.com> >> CESIL (Computer Education in Schools Instructional Language), >Ha ha, I'd forgotten about that one... I remember typing in a CESIL >interpreter into the Speccy from some magazine or other. It >was even slower than ZX BASIC though so I gave up on it after a couple of weeks.. I wrote that "interpreter". It was published in ZX Computing I think. I still have the magazine upstairs. The original program was written for my 'O'-level in Computer Studies. The magazine had already published Moon Rescue (a rip-off of Lunar Lander) that I wrote one weekend after Swap Shop had been cut short for some sporting event. Smelling the lure of money (15 quid was a lot for a 15-year old in 1981!), I thought I'd send of the ZX-CESIL after converting it from my ZX-81 to my Spectrum. I remember using the real ICL-CES CESIL at school - writing out the code on sheets of paper, sending them off to the local poly. We had a TTY link with an old-fashioned modem and a paper tape reader to boot. We were very jealous of one of the other schools that had a VDU monitor! Ah, yes. Those were the days. My friends and I used to talk about how great it would be to have a VDU with such hi-res graphics that you could do 1024 x 1024 in full 24-bit RGB. We calculated the cost of the RAM to hold one frame and it came to hundreds of thousands of pounds. Not in our life time, we thought. Hee-hee. BTW, I've seen my ZX-CESIL2 on a Russian Spectrum software repository site that you can download and run via a Z80 emulator. Pointless but fascinating! John. From chobbs at socal.rr.com Sat Oct 13 19:29:35 2001 From: chobbs at socal.rr.com (charles hobbs) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:41 2005 Subject: RetroX computer shop in London... References: Message-ID: <3BC8DC6F.36423001@socal.rr.com> Tony Duell wrote: > > > > > > Anyone ever go there? I did last week, on a visit...lots of real old > > 8-bit software (Atari, Commodore, Dragon, etc) and some hardware, > > Assuming this is London, England, can you give a more specific address, 90 Shepherds Bush Road (an easy walk or short bus ride from the Shepherds Bush tube stations...) > > or a landmark that it's near, or... > > I live in London, and have never come across this place..... I was looking for a particular piece of software, and did a Google search on the name of the software. This place came up in the search.... > It sounds as > though I should investigate it... It's mostly lower end 8-bit software, but it might be worth a peek...they're (nominally) open Tues-Sun during regular business hours, but don't be too suprised if you knock on the door and no-one is there for an hour or so... From lists at aussie.nu Sat Oct 13 20:00:18 2001 From: lists at aussie.nu (Bob Purdon - Lists) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:41 2005 Subject: RS6000 7012-320H In-Reply-To: Message-ID: > > How do I get inside? > > You'll have to resort to trial and error. There is no way to boot the machine > into a single user shell without an external boot device (and this will be > hard to find, as detailed in earlier messages). I vaguely remember that the RS6000 machines could be booted into a maintenance mode through use of the keyswitch on the front. It's been a long while though, and I'm not sure whether all the models had the keyswitch (the 500 & 900 series certainly did). From thompson at mail.athenet.net Sat Oct 13 20:37:47 2001 From: thompson at mail.athenet.net (Paul Thompson) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:41 2005 Subject: RS6000 7012-320H In-Reply-To: Message-ID: I believe that that maintenance mode still asks for the root password. The tape/cd/diskette maintenance doesn't. If you had another RS6k you can probably import the disk from the other and remove or change the root password on the lost root box. You would need to expend some effort to get the lvol names back to what AIX expects for a system disk since the import will change the names of the logical volumes on the lost disk to not conflict with the host machine. On Sun, 14 Oct 2001, Bob Purdon - Lists wrote: > I vaguely remember that the RS6000 machines could be booted into a > maintenance mode through use of the keyswitch on the front. It's been a > long while though, and I'm not sure whether all the models had the > keyswitch (the 500 & 900 series certainly did). > -- From vaxman at qwest.net Sat Oct 13 21:19:06 2001 From: vaxman at qwest.net (Clint Wolff (VAX collector)) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:41 2005 Subject: RS6000 7012-320H In-Reply-To: Message-ID: If the internal disk is SCSI, you could attach it to any other system (for example Linux), and write a utility that goes through the raw disk looking for 'root:\([^:]*\):0:0:' and replace it with 'root::0:0:\1' (excuse the RE fun, replace the encrypted password with an empty string, and pad it out the the same length). If you search the entire disk, the will take care of shadow passwords also... I recently did this to a Sun system, with only minor pain... Clint On Sat, 13 Oct 2001, Paul Thompson wrote: > > I believe that that maintenance mode still asks for the root password. > The tape/cd/diskette maintenance doesn't. > > If you had another RS6k you can probably import the disk from the other > and remove or change the root password on the lost root box. You would > need to expend some effort to get the lvol names back to what AIX expects > for a system disk since the import will change the names of the logical > volumes on the lost disk to not conflict with the host machine. > > On Sun, 14 Oct 2001, Bob Purdon - Lists wrote: > > > I vaguely remember that the RS6000 machines could be booted into a > > maintenance mode through use of the keyswitch on the front. It's been a > > long while though, and I'm not sure whether all the models had the > > keyswitch (the 500 & 900 series certainly did). > > > > -- > > > From optimus at canit.se Sat Oct 13 17:50:46 2001 From: optimus at canit.se (Iggy Drougge) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:42 2005 Subject: SCSI pros & cons In-Reply-To: <20011013042119.PHZY17433.imf06bis.bellsouth.net@thegoodw> Message-ID: <1303.686T2300T14305521optimus@canit.se> Glen Goodwin skrev: >I wrote: >> > If you have a pile of cards, one machine, and none >> >of the cards work in that specific box, I'd suggest that there may be a >> >fault in the box, or another device in there which conflicts with your >SCSI >> >cards. >Iggy replied: >> Who cares what the cause is? The point is that it won't work. >??? Well, *I* care what the cause is. If you put a piece of hardware in a >system and it doesn't work, don't you want to know why??? I don't >understand this. Depends on the system and whether I'm doing it for fun or just to get a task done with. Generally, I like to know, but not in this case. The difference between reasons and excuses is little, and I'm not at all interested in excuses. >> I see that BIOS setup utility on the cards as a sympthom of the low level >of >> integration. The cards behave as an alien entity in the computer. >??? Okay, so you have to integrate the card into the system yourself, and >that setup utility gives you the information and control you need to do it. > Alien entity? What do you mean??? If it's got its own BIOS, it could just as well exist outside of the computer, as long as it's supplied with +5 and 12V. -- En ligne avec Thor 2.6a. The generation of random numbers is too important to be left to chance. From acme_ent at bellsouth.net Sat Oct 13 21:51:32 2001 From: acme_ent at bellsouth.net (Glen Goodwin) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:42 2005 Subject: Phonemark/Entrepo Quick Data Drive Message-ID: <20011014025318.DLXK15529.imf00bis.bellsouth.net@thegoodw> Philip Pemberton wrote: > A while ago I got a Phonemark "Quick Data Drive", aparrently made by > Entrepo. It uses small endless-loop tape cartridges called "Wafers" (any > relation to the Rotronics Wafadrive? hmm...). Sounds like this device uses the same "stringy floppy" tape as the A&J Microdrive and the Wafadrive. > I've had the cover off, and it appears to use a small-ish black plastic > mechanism with "BSR" printed on it. This mechanism looks (from the front) > exactly like the ones on the Rotronics Wafadrive. Anyone know if Wafadrive > cartridges will work with it? Anyone know where to get Wafadrive cartridges? Try comp.sys.sinclair. Be advised that Entrepo made two types -- A and B. Same tape, different housing. I have A&J drives (one each A and B type) hung off my TS2068. The drives are slow, and the tapes are extremely fragile, to the point that I rarely use the drives any more, in order not to destroy my few remaining tapes. Glen 0/0 From donm at cts.com Sat Oct 13 22:04:24 2001 From: donm at cts.com (Don Maslin) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:42 2005 Subject: H88 kit available In-Reply-To: <3BC8915C.A1C746DC@ecubics.com> Message-ID: Sorry folks, it's gone, Emanuel Stiebler was first on the mark. - don From hans at Huebner.ORG Sat Oct 13 22:12:57 2001 From: hans at Huebner.ORG (=?ISO-8859-1?Q?Hans_H=FCbner?=) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:42 2005 Subject: RS6000 7012-320H In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Sat, 13 Oct 2001, Clint Wolff (VAX collector) wrote: > If the internal disk is SCSI, you could attach it to any other system > (for example Linux), and write a utility that goes through the raw > disk looking for 'root:\([^:]*\):0:0:' and replace it with 'root::0:0:\1' Good suggestion. Note that AIX (at least it's current versions) places the encrypted password in /etc/security/passwd. The general file format is " = ". What you want to do is replace all "password =" entries which have a password defined with your own encrypted password. -Hans -- finger hans@huebner.org for details From wmsmith at earthlink.net Sat Oct 13 22:38:10 2001 From: wmsmith at earthlink.net (Wayne M. Smith) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:42 2005 Subject: Looking for : IBM 5110 Serial IO adapter software References: <3BC8226D.32013.94A7C92@localhost> <3BC89C0D.90507@aconit.org> Message-ID: <00c701c15461$a64b5400$4928b3d1@Smith.earthlink.net> > Stan Sieler wrote: > > > Re: > > > >>Are the 5110's of any collector value (not that I would ever part with > >>mine, but I am curious if it is just me that wants to keep it, or if it > >> > > > > The ones with APL seem to be harder to find than the ones with > > BASIC :( > > > > (I'm looking for a working APL model of 5100, 5110, or 5120 ... > > can trade BASIC model of 5110 or 5120) > > > Ours is an APL model - sorry not available. > > Surely the dual APL/Basic are even rarer? > > -- HBP > I don't think so. There are lots of BASIC-only units, and a number of daul BASIC/APL, but this is the only APL-only model I've heard of in a 5100 or 5110. I've got a BASIC-only 5100 and 5110, and like Stan, have been on the lookout for an APL model. From vze2mnvr at verizon.net Sat Oct 13 22:44:21 2001 From: vze2mnvr at verizon.net (Jan Koller) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:42 2005 Subject: ArcNet and the Pursuit of Multiple Topologies References: <0110091250010B.04845@simon> Message-ID: <3BC90A15.5E9BDA6@verizon.net> > 4) Any other interesting topologies I should try? I have plans to do: > Arcnet, FDDI, Token ring, Localtalk, 10b2, 10b5, 10bT, 10bTX, 10bFiber, > and (eventually) 802.11b wireless. CDDI ? Tarsi wrote: > > Dear all, > > I've decided that one of my goals is to run every networking topology > possible in my house, regardless if I actually NEED to run them or not. :) > > My plan is to place 1 linux box running a card from each topology in it and > use that to bridge all (or almost all) topologies. > > I currently have running 10bT ethernet, 10b2 ethernet, Localtalk over > PhoneNET and the beginnings of Arcnet. > > In light of such, I have a series of questions: > > 1) Who knows some stuff about ArcNet? I've gotten 4 cards (8-bit ISA) and a > 16-port active hub. I've read somewhere that cards are either hubbable or > not. Any other info on that? > > 2) Anyone have any (I think it is) 93ohm coax arcnet patch cables that they > want to get rid of? > > 3) Anyone got good resources on ThickNET? (10b5 I think it is?) I know it > was run back in the day, and I know some precursory things about it (the > funky vampire taps, etc.) Anyone have either resources or hardware on this > topology that they'd like to share/sell/etc? :) > > 4) Any other interesting topologies I should try? I have plans to do: > Arcnet, FDDI, Token ring, Localtalk, 10b2, 10b5, 10bT, 10bTX, 10bFiber, and > (eventually) 802.11b wireless. > > Thanks folks! > > Tarsi > 210 > > -- > ---------------------------------------------- > Homepage: http://tarsi.binhost.com > binHOST.com: http://www.binhost.com > Forever Beyond: http://www.foreverbeyond.org > ---------------------------------------------- From vze2mnvr at verizon.net Sat Oct 13 22:50:25 2001 From: vze2mnvr at verizon.net (Jan Koller) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:42 2005 Subject: ArcNet and the Pursuit of Multiple Topologies References: Message-ID: <3BC90B81.5BCFD8E9@verizon.net> > String and tin cans? Message in a bottle ??? Sellam Ismail wrote: > > On Tue, 9 Oct 2001, Tarsi wrote: > > > 4) Any other interesting topologies I should try? I have plans to > > do: Arcnet, FDDI, Token ring, Localtalk, 10b2, 10b5, 10bT, 10bTX, > > 10bFiber, and (eventually) 802.11b wireless. > > String and tin cans? > > Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ > International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org From vze2mnvr at verizon.net Sat Oct 13 23:13:32 2001 From: vze2mnvr at verizon.net (Jan Koller) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:42 2005 Subject: ArcNet and the Pursuit of Multiple Topologies References: Message-ID: <3BC910EC.F40BB1A2@verizon.net> > They must have been big suckers to carry passengers :) No, the passengers are just very small. Parasites, bacteria, and viruses, west nile among them. Don Maslin wrote: > > On Tue, 9 Oct 2001, r. 'bear' stricklin wrote: > > > On Tue, 9 Oct 2001, Eric Dittman wrote: > > > > > Haven't carrier pigeons been extinct long before IP and UUCP were > > > developed? > > > > Nope, people still use carrier pigeons. > > > > You're thinking of the Passenger Pigeon. The last one died in 1914. > > > > ok > > r. > > > > They must have been big suckers to carry passengers :) > > - don From jtinker at coin.org Sat Oct 13 21:05:59 2001 From: jtinker at coin.org (jtinker@coin.org) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:42 2005 Subject: Looking for Turtle Tot information Message-ID: <200110140352.f9E3qsN21822@mail.mcmsys.com> The Turtle Tot is a two-wheeled robot, that is about a foot in diameter. It communicates with a computer via RS-232. The supporting software was made by Harvard Associates. I think the actual robot was made by Flexible Solutions, a Tasmanian company. The one I have is missing several chips, and I am trying to find out what they are. If anyone has documentation on this device that includes the board layouts, I could use some help. Thanks, -- John Tinker From vze2mnvr at verizon.net Sat Oct 13 23:16:06 2001 From: vze2mnvr at verizon.net (Jan Koller) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:42 2005 Subject: ArcNet and the Pursuit of Multiple Topologies References: <5.1.0.14.2.20011009203428.02718298@mail.30below.com> Message-ID: <3BC91186.686BCEE6@verizon.net> > MMM... that'd be a Petabyte, IIRC. After that, would be an Exabyte, I have an Exabyte tape drive. Big huh? > then a Yottabyte and then an Zetabyte Actually, wasn't that Yoda Roger Merchberger wrote: > > Rumor has it that John Allain may have mentioned these words: > > > a 747 was packed with DLTs and flown from > > > San Francisco to Seattle. > > > >Such a transport could easily easily exceed 1,024 TeraBytes. > >(forgot the Prefixname) What'd they need all that data for? > > MMM... that'd be a Petabyte, IIRC. After that, would be an Exabyte, then a > Yottabyte and then an Zetabyte > > And why? Probably to install Windows XP & Office XP (2002) from... ;-) > > Time to upgrade your hard drives again... > > Roger "Merch" Merchberger From vze2mnvr at verizon.net Sat Oct 13 23:20:26 2001 From: vze2mnvr at verizon.net (Jan Koller) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:42 2005 Subject: ArcNet and the Pursuit of Multiple Topologies References: <0110091250010B.04845@simon> <15299.20280.840402.155015@phaduka.neurotica.com> Message-ID: <3BC9128A.9C8E690@verizon.net> > > > 4) Any other interesting topologies I should try? How about MicroWave transmission ? Or data encoded onto laser beams? Or satellite bounced? Dave McGuire wrote: > > On October 9, Sellam Ismail wrote: > > > 4) Any other interesting topologies I should try? I have plans to > > > do: Arcnet, FDDI, Token ring, Localtalk, 10b2, 10b5, 10bT, 10bTX, > > > 10bFiber, and (eventually) 802.11b wireless. > > > > String and tin cans? > > IP over carrier pigeon!! > > -Dave > > -- > Dave McGuire > Laurel, MD From vze2mnvr at verizon.net Sat Oct 13 23:22:22 2001 From: vze2mnvr at verizon.net (Jan Koller) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:42 2005 Subject: ArcNet and the Pursuit of Multiple Topologies References: Message-ID: <3BC912FE.8293D819@verizon.net> The passenger pigeon prefers to be on top ? Dan Linder wrote: > > On Tue, 9 Oct 2001, Peter C. Wallace wrote: > > > > Haven't carrier pigeons been extinct long before IP and UUCP were > > > developed? > > > > Nah, Its passenger pigeons taht are extinct... > > okay, I'll bite... what's the difference between a "carrier pigeon" and a > "passenger pigeon"? > > - Dan > > Dan Linder / dlinder @ uiuc.edu > Graduate Student, College of Engineering, Dept. of Computer Science > - Dept. of Computer Science Teaching Assistant > - DRES Computer Accessibility Researcher From vze2mnvr at verizon.net Sat Oct 13 23:34:35 2001 From: vze2mnvr at verizon.net (Jan Koller) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:42 2005 Subject: ArcNet and the Pursuit of Multiple Topologies References: <0110091250010B.04845@simon> <10110100058.ZM8323@mindy.dunnington.u-net.com> Message-ID: <3BC915DB.8EF703C5@verizon.net> (b) I'd have to buy it (which is against my religion) Shame on you, that almost sounds communist. Pete Turnbull wrote: > > On Oct 9, 12:50, Tarsi wrote: > > > I've decided that one of my goals is to run every networking topology > > possible in my house, regardless if I actually NEED to run them or not. > :) > > > 4) Any other interesting topologies I should try? I have plans to do: > > Arcnet, FDDI, Token ring, Localtalk, 10b2, 10b5, 10bT, 10bTX, 10bFiber, > and > > (eventually) 802.11b wireless. > > ATM would be good, and although there's a lot of it around, you should be > able to pick up a couple of routers fairly cheaply. > > Acorn Econet? There's Linux support for that too. > > How about the original DIX Ethernet? Try a web search for Aloha. > > Sinclair (Timex) machines like the Spectrum and QL used a proprietary > network, but I think the only other company to ever use it was ICL. > > Do you count ADSL, ISDN, X.21, or just LAN stuff? > > 10base2, 10base5, 10baseF (and FOIRL), 10baseT, 100baseTX, 100baseT4, > 100baseFX, 1000baseTX, 1000baseSX, 100baseLX and 1000baseCX are all closely > related and you will find some excellent references at > http://www.techfest.com/networking/lan.htm > > 10base2 and 10base5 are bus topologies using 50-ohm coax; 10baseF (and its > predecessor FOIRL), 100baseFX, and 1000baseSX/LX are fibre technologies > often used as point-to-point but can be used in star networks too; 10baseT, > 100baseTX, and 100baseT4 use UTP and are normally used in star topologies. > > Before you get too carried away, you might want to think about the > permutations of protocols, technologies, and topologies or you'll need a > much larger house :-) The same fibre that carries FOIRL can (if it's the > right size, 50/125) carry 10baseF, 100baseFX, 1000baseSX, ATM, FDDI, ... > > I have a thin Ethernet (10base2) segment, a thick Ethernet (10base5) > segment, a lot of Cat5e carrying 10baseT and some 100baseTX, a chunk of > FDDI, some FOIRL, 10baseF, and potentially 100baseFX, at home; and there's > lots of redundant ATM kit at work but (a) I have no room, and (b) I'd have > to buy it (which is against my religion). I also have some Econet, ISDN, > UUCP serial links, etc. > > -- > Pete Peter Turnbull > Network Manager > University of York From vze2mnvr at verizon.net Sun Oct 14 00:10:16 2001 From: vze2mnvr at verizon.net (Jan Koller) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:42 2005 Subject: Fwd: [GreenKeys] Need help in the Denver area References: <4.3.2.7.0.20011012182347.02220e90@pc> Message-ID: <3BC91E38.7217CA41@verizon.net> How do you break both rear springs? Massive overloading? If that's the case, watch out, the fines are stiff. If it's not overloaded, why won't U-Haul give you a replacement truck? Back it up to the other, transfer the load, get on your way, and let U-Haul deal with their broken equipment? But if you did overload it, I can understand your reluctance to call them. John Foust wrote: > > Eric Smith is in trouble > in the Denver area, if anyone can help... > > - John > > >Date: Fri, 12 Oct 2001 14:16:28 -0700 > >To: greenkeys@qth.net > >From: Don Robert House > >Subject: [GreenKeys] Need help in the Denver area > >Sender: owner-greenkeys@qth.net > >Reply-To: Don Robert House > > > >Eric Smith is driving coast to coast to deliver some rare computer and teletype equipment. The U-Haul truck broke both rear springs. He needs to off load the truck in the Denver area and make arrangements to come back later with a different truck. Is there anyone out there that can help us out? > >Eric's cell phone is: (408) 838 3733 > > > >Thanks for any leads, > > > >Don > >-------------------------------------------------------- > >Don Robert House, N.S.E. > >Curator, NADCOMM > >North American Data Communications Museum > >3841 Reche Road > >Fallbrook, CA 92028-3810 > >760-723-9943 Office > >760-723-9984 FAX > >URL: http://www.nadcomm.org > >e-mail: drhouse@nadcomm.org > > > > > >---- > >Submissions: greenkeys@qth.net From vze2mnvr at verizon.net Sun Oct 14 00:41:23 2001 From: vze2mnvr at verizon.net (Jan Koller) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:42 2005 Subject: Slightly OT: What to do with a DEC 3000/300? References: <5.1.0.14.2.20011009195319.023dc8d8@mail.30below.com> Message-ID: <3BC92583.6F75157F@verizon.net> > machine - that's as far as I got, mainly due to that blasted 8-plane > framebuffer. None of the text editors that I can find work right - they > can't figure out how to run the terminal "text-mode"... so I can't modify > the config files to try to get DECWindows running, which makes it > impossible to read my dox, because they're only on CD-ROM -- it's a vicious > cycle... :-( So I hate to ask the obvious, but why didn't you just change the frame buffer to one that would work with your applications? Roger Merchberger wrote: > > I *think* these are slightly newer than the 10-year rule, but they're a > rather "odd" machine, so I'll post anyway... > > I just purchased a "new" computer for my wife (Compaq 300Mhz PentiumII > dual-processor server -- $50 USD - can't complain -- she needs to run > office software now, so it'll be staroffice & linux)...... > > Anywho, I now have a "spare" DEC Model 3000/300, 150Mhz Alpha 21064 (or 66, > can't remember now), 64Meg RAM, (2) 2-Gig DEC (barracuda) drives, 19" > monitor, 2Meg framebuffer, TurboChannel slots, etc. etc. > > This machine will not (easily) run anything but Tru64 Unix or > OpenVMS/Alpha... primarily due to it's TurboChannel architecture. > > My wife was using Tru64 Unix V.5.0 - it was easiest to set up, had > Nutscrape preinstalled, and with my extensive Linux/Solaris background, > made it a relative cakewalk to set up & maintain... but Emacs & sc *aren't* > office software... I had installed OpenVMS/Alpha V7.2 on the machine, but I > had problems with the dual-booting, due to boot flags that there was no way > I could get my wife to remember... (She's a "click here", "mouse there" > kinda person. She's not a geek, that's why she married *me*... ;-) so I > deep-sixed the VMS install (which never did work outside of single-user > mode) on that box. > > I've *wanted* to learn VMS, but my current VAX makes it difficult, mainly > because it's "Beefed" to the max -- VaxStation 3100/m38, 32Meg RAM, 1Gig > HD, VMS 7.1 (full distro - like 11 CD's) 2Meg 8-plane framebuffer & 17" > monitor. I have successfully installed & hobby licensed VMS 7.1 on the > machine - that's as far as I got, mainly due to that blasted 8-plane > framebuffer. None of the text editors that I can find work right - they > can't figure out how to run the terminal "text-mode"... so I can't modify > the config files to try to get DECWindows running, which makes it > impossible to read my dox, because they're only on CD-ROM -- it's a vicious > cycle... :-( > > I also have a distro of Ultrix/VMS for that box, and had gotten that > running well, but 1) was dog-slow, and 2) I don't really need YAUB (Yet > Another Unix Box) -- I wanted VMS! > > Anyway, I've heard that 64Meg RAM was awfully tight to run VMS on an Alpha, > but is it still faster than Tru64 Unix? (The machine was no screamer, but > it was still faster than my wife... ;-) Or should I just sell it to someone > willing to give it a good home? (I have too many computers now - and I'm > trying to purchase a [smaller] house so may be moving soon... I *need* to > consolidate my collection & am downsizing machines which I will never have > time to tinker with...) > > Advice?? Ideas?? Thanks!! > > Roger "Merch" Merchberger From vze2mnvr at verizon.net Sun Oct 14 00:52:52 2001 From: vze2mnvr at verizon.net (Jan Koller) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:42 2005 Subject: Squealing CRTs References: Message-ID: <3BC92834.E87FBD98@verizon.net> Instead I had a really cool exit wound on the > tip of my pointer (but not as cool as the one on my elbow when I shorted > theater lighting thru my forearm) Did you take a picture? Chris wrote: > > >>I don't intend to take up high-voltage repairs as another hobby of mine. I'm > >>too intent on keeping on living with all my bodily functions intact. > > > >Aw, you haven't lived until you've been kicked across the room by a HV > >powersupply > > I wasn't that lucky... when I did it, I shorted a cap thru my finger > (fortuantly, just thru ONE finger, tip to knuckle). I was working blind > in a terminal, and I thought some animal was in there that just ripped my > finger off... I was really expecting to pull out my hand and see a stump > where my finger had been. Instead I had a really cool exit wound on the > tip of my pointer (but not as cool as the one on my elbow when I shorted > theater lighting thru my forearm) > > -chris > > From technos at nerdland.org Sun Oct 14 02:10:02 2001 From: technos at nerdland.org (Jim Tuck) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:42 2005 Subject: Radio shack TRS-80 PC-1 and PC-2 Message-ID: <01C1545D.B71AE790.technos@nerdland.org> On Saturday, October 13, 2001 3:06 PM, Tony Duell [SMTP:ard@p850ug1.demon.co.uk] wrote: > I have the Sharp PC1500 (very similar to the TRS-80 PC2) technical > manual.... (well, I would, right :-)). > > It doesn't say that much about the cassette format, but it does say > something. If there are any details you're not sure about, feel free to > ask me in case I can find them... > > > > > I *WILL* IRC from one of these, goddamnit.. > The PC-1500 is the same calc. The only differences are in the badge and the keyboard. You can plug Sharp modules, printer, etc into the RS (and vice versa) I have the RS equivalent technical manual. It gives specifications on the frequency encoding and rate. I also managed to scrounge a break down of the raw hex to Basic operand (two digit hex code to each operator/char, a small amount of padding) > Err, add a CE158 RS232 interface (to the PC2/Sharp PC1500)? It contains a > 1-line terminal emulator in the ROM :-) Yes this device does exist... > > Radio Shack sold a similar unit for a time. The ROM and RS232 interface > was indentical, but the Centronics port (present on the CE158) was not > fitted. The commands to talk to it were still in the ROM, but undocumented... > > I have one of each type. With the latter one, I could have added the > Centronics port (it's only a couple of buffer chips, and I have all the > schematics), but instead I packed an ADC chip in there, using the 'spare' > port lines on the I/O chip to talk to it (I/O lines that would have been > used for the centronics port, etc). Made a nice pocket data logger :-) > > -tony The problem is finding one. I've had *no* luck, and even if I could find one, it wouldn't help me with the PC-1 (Sharp PC-1211) anyway. Jim From technos at nerdland.org Sun Oct 14 02:16:54 2001 From: technos at nerdland.org (Jim Tuck) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:42 2005 Subject: Radio shack TRS-80 PC-1 and PC-2 Message-ID: <01C1545E.ACF23CE0.technos@nerdland.org> Well, the idea is this; Simple three line basic prog running on the calc, doing 'input#' for data from a sound card. The encoding format is kind of documented as is the text->bin conversion. There are already a pair of programs that will handle conversion from wav->bin->text or bin->wav, just not text->bin->wav. They're also DOS utils with no source availibility, and their support for the PC-1 (Sharp PC-1211) isn't 100%.. Jim On Saturday, October 13, 2001 10:13 AM, Cameron Kaiser [SMTP:spectre@stockholm.ptloma.edu] wrote: > > Welp, have managed to reach the fellow who wrote the conversion utilities > > for > > these fine calculators.. And got a very nice pointer to pretty much all I > > would > > ever want to know about them. Now I get to start on a Linux kernel driver to > > > > make them appear as serial devices.. A couple hundred baud fake serial > > connect over /dev/dsp is looking mighty feasable.. > > I'd love to hear how this worked. I've got a PC-3 and PC-4 in my stable. > Care to explain in greater detail how you're connecting/communicating with > them? > > -- > ----------------------------- personal page: http://www.armory.com/~spectre/ > -- > Cameron Kaiser, Point Loma Nazarene University * > ckaiser@stockholm.ptloma.edu > -- UBAX vs lbh ybir EBG-13 > ---------------------------------------------------- From Simon.Hardy at hemel-hempstead.sema.slb.com Sun Oct 14 07:06:02 2001 From: Simon.Hardy at hemel-hempstead.sema.slb.com (HARDY, Simon) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:42 2005 Subject: Research Machines Information Message-ID: <579AC59C515DD211B38B00A0C9B22928AE0B63@HEMESC.sema.co.uk> Paul, Many thanks.... heres hoping I can get the info I need from them to get this machine back up and running. Regards Simon -----Original Message----- From: Paul Williams [mailto:celigne@tinyworld.co.uk] Sent: 13 October 2001 20:31 To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org Subject: Re: Research Machines Information "HARDY, Simon" wrote: > > Desperately seeking any 480z or 380z manuals or other information, > online, original or photocopy. I've scanned the schematics from the 480Z Information File and put them online. However, they are hand-drawn, so I've had to scan them in grayscale at 300dpi in order to be readable. http://vt100.net/rm/480z/schematics/ ___________________________________________________________________________ This email is confidential and intended solely for the use of the individual to whom it is addressed. Any views or opinions presented are solely those of the author and do not necessarily represent those of SchlumbergerSema. If you are not the intended recipient, be advised that you have received this email in error and that any use, dissemination, forwarding, printing, or copying of this email is strictly prohibited. If you have received this email in error please notify the SchlumbergerSema Helpdesk by telephone on +44 (0) 121 627 5600. ___________________________________________________________________________ From thompson at mail.athenet.net Sun Oct 14 09:07:02 2001 From: thompson at mail.athenet.net (Paul Thompson) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:42 2005 Subject: RS6000 7012-320H In-Reply-To: Message-ID: That would work -- you'd have to change at least two entries since you would hit a password in /etc/security/passwd and /etc/security/opasswd and probably would not know for sure which one you hit... On Sat, 13 Oct 2001, Clint Wolff (VAX collector) wrote: > > If the internal disk is SCSI, you could attach it to any other system > (for example Linux), and write a utility that goes through the raw > disk looking for 'root:\([^:]*\):0:0:' and replace it with 'root::0:0:\1' > (excuse the RE fun, replace the encrypted password with an empty > string, and pad it out the the same length). If you search the > entire disk, the will take care of shadow passwords also... I recently > did this to a Sun system, with only minor pain... > > Clint > > On Sat, 13 Oct 2001, Paul Thompson wrote: > > > > > I believe that that maintenance mode still asks for the root password. > > The tape/cd/diskette maintenance doesn't. > > > > If you had another RS6k you can probably import the disk from the other > > and remove or change the root password on the lost root box. You would > > need to expend some effort to get the lvol names back to what AIX expects > > for a system disk since the import will change the names of the logical > > volumes on the lost disk to not conflict with the host machine. > > > > On Sun, 14 Oct 2001, Bob Purdon - Lists wrote: > > > > > I vaguely remember that the RS6000 machines could be booted into a > > > maintenance mode through use of the keyswitch on the front. It's been a > > > long while though, and I'm not sure whether all the models had the > > > keyswitch (the 500 & 900 series certainly did). > > > > > > > -- > > > > > > > -- From vze2mnvr at verizon.net Sun Oct 14 09:14:30 2001 From: vze2mnvr at verizon.net (Jan Koller) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:42 2005 Subject: IBM ROM BASIC or lack thereof References: Message-ID: <3BC99DC6.9ECC6192@verizon.net> Wasn't AMD's chip an Am5x86-133 in reference to it's being a 5th generation 486 chip. I believe the Cyrix 586 was 486 series too. Their first Pentium level offering was the 686, wasn't it? Mike Ford wrote: > > >I saw a component at a shop in Malaysia marked Intel 586 once. Many times > >I've regretted not buying it just as a conversation piece. I always > >wondered if that would have given me problems coming back into the US at > >customs.... > > Cyrix sold their pentium clone as a 586, maybe others too. From dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com Sun Oct 14 09:47:07 2001 From: dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com (Douglas Quebbeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:42 2005 Subject: ArcNet and the Pursuit of Multiple Topologies Message-ID: <7A9BACCEF0171D4FB77019F5104CDD372257D4@jeffserver.tegjeff.com> > Sellam Ismail wrote: > > > > On Tue, 9 Oct 2001, Tarsi wrote: > > > > > 4) Any other interesting topologies I should try? I have plans to > > > do: Arcnet, FDDI, Token ring, Localtalk, 10b2, 10b5, 10bT, 10bTX, > > > 10bFiber, and (eventually) 802.11b wireless. > > > > String and tin cans? > > > Message in a bottle ??? Smoke signals? Talking drums? ...Boom-ba-ba-Boom-ba-ba-Boom-ba-ba-Boom-ba-ba-Boom-ba-ba-Boom... -dq From john_boffemmyer_iv at boff-net.dhs.org Sun Oct 14 10:45:56 2001 From: john_boffemmyer_iv at boff-net.dhs.org (John Boffemmyer IV) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:42 2005 Subject: ArcNet and the Pursuit of Multiple Topologies In-Reply-To: <7A9BACCEF0171D4FB77019F5104CDD372257D4@jeffserver.tegjeff. com> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20011014114327.009e18f0@sokieserv.dhs.org> hmmm, what about usb net linq? i know it's new and i'm probly gonna get flamed for saying it, but it's just as new as 802.11b wireless. and what about phonenet/phonelink 10mbit over the phone lines in the house? or even powerlink, 8mbit over the power outlets in your house? - John Boffemmyer IV At 10:47 AM 10/14/01, you wrote: > > Sellam Ismail wrote: > > > > > > On Tue, 9 Oct 2001, Tarsi wrote: > > > > > > > 4) Any other interesting topologies I should try? I have plans to > > > > do: Arcnet, FDDI, Token ring, Localtalk, 10b2, 10b5, 10bT, 10bTX, > > > > 10bFiber, and (eventually) 802.11b wireless. > > > > > > String and tin cans? > > > > > Message in a bottle ??? > >Smoke signals? Talking drums? > >...Boom-ba-ba-Boom-ba-ba-Boom-ba-ba-Boom-ba-ba-Boom-ba-ba-Boom... > >-dq ---------------------------------------- Founder, Lead Writer, Tech Analyst and Web Designer Boff-Net Technologies http://boff-net.dhs.org/index.html --------------------------------------- From dec.parts at verizon.net Sun Oct 14 12:16:55 2001 From: dec.parts at verizon.net (Info from LSI) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:42 2005 Subject: big physics labs Message-ID: <3BC9C887.1AA5@verizon.net> Mike (and any others), If you frequent "big physics" or other labs, you might know of the whereabouts of a part that is currently needed. If you do, it could be payday for you. Need from 1 to 8 Eltec Eurocom-7 VMEbus CPU's order number ( Rev. ) B130 or equivalent. Sincerely, Bennett > What about the system that was used in large scale lab stuff, > I am thinking by Kinetic Systems and it linked instrument racks > together that they called Crates. They were all over the big > physics labs. From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun Oct 14 13:07:41 2001 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:42 2005 Subject: SCSI pros & cons In-Reply-To: <1303.686T2300T14305521optimus@canit.se> from "Iggy Drougge" at Oct 13, 1 11:50:46 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1367 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20011014/84b303e8/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun Oct 14 13:09:56 2001 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:42 2005 Subject: RetroX computer shop in London... In-Reply-To: <3BC8DC6F.36423001@socal.rr.com> from "charles hobbs" at Oct 13, 1 05:29:35 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 535 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20011014/a0f5ea75/attachment.ksh From jos.mar at bluewin.ch Mon Oct 15 00:36:00 2001 From: jos.mar at bluewin.ch (Jos Dreesen) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:42 2005 Subject: problems generating OS8 system tape. Message-ID: <3BCA75C0.F23D5EBF@bluewin.ch> After finally getting my TU56/TD8E setup operational, I now run into problems generating an OS/8 system tape. The system keeps insisting that "TAPE #2 is not an original dec tape", although i know for a fact that it is. I have 3 sets of system tapes and all generate the same error. Tape #1 is never asked for, the resulting tape is of course not usable. Any clues what I'm doing wrong ? Jos Dreesen From chobbs at socal.rr.com Sun Oct 14 13:36:01 2001 From: chobbs at socal.rr.com (charles hobbs) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:42 2005 Subject: RetroX computer shop in London... References: Message-ID: <3BC9DB11.26B797E8@socal.rr.com> Tony Duell wrote: > [...] RetroX in Shepherds Bush > > > It's mostly lower end 8-bit software, but it might be worth a peek...they're > > Sure, it's not 100% my main interest, but they might have something that > I need. Anyway, it can't hurt to look :-) Let me know what you think... From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun Oct 14 13:35:20 2001 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:42 2005 Subject: Semi-OT : 4063 pinout Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 660 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20011014/d051bc6d/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun Oct 14 13:21:33 2001 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:42 2005 Subject: Radio shack TRS-80 PC-1 and PC-2 In-Reply-To: <01C1545D.B71AE790.technos@nerdland.org> from "Jim Tuck" at Oct 14, 1 03:10:02 am Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 3300 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20011014/db66cc0b/attachment.ksh From mcguire at neurotica.com Sun Oct 14 14:33:18 2001 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:42 2005 Subject: Semi-OT : 4063 pinout In-Reply-To: Semi-OT : 4063 pinout (Tony Duell) References: Message-ID: <15305.59518.86249.718146@phaduka.neurotica.com> On October 14, Tony Duell wrote: > This is semi-off-topic (but only 'semi' as I repairing a computer > peripheral that's over 10 years old...) > > I have come across a chip that I don't have the pinout of. It's a 4063, > presumably 4000-series CMOS. The one in the device is made by RCA. > > >From the function in the circuit, I would guess it's some kind of 4 bit > comparator. > > Does anybody have the pinouts (16 pin DIL). It's not in any of my CMOS > databooks that I can find. If you do, could you please type them as a > simple text file (as in It is indeed a 4-bit comparator. Here is the pinout: 1 B3 2 IAB 5 OA>B 6 OA=B 7 OA >> It's mostly lower end 8-bit software, but it might be worth a peek...they're > >Sure, it's not 100% my main interest, but they might have something that >I need. Anyway, it can't hurt to look :-) Is this the shop that has the owner's Altair in some basement or other? Or am I misremembering some other snippet? Antonio From Antonio.Carlini at riverstonenet.com Sun Oct 14 15:01:38 2001 From: Antonio.Carlini at riverstonenet.com (Carlini, Antonio) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:42 2005 Subject: Research Machines Information Message-ID: <3820E2042B6ED5118DC200D0B78EDC47066197@exc-reo1> >I've scanned the schematics from the 480Z Information File and put them >online. However, they are hand-drawn, so I've had to scan them in >grayscale at 300dpi in order to be readable. > > http://vt100.net/rm/480z/schematics/ Be warned that the page does not load if you have Javascript on (at least in Netscape 4.7). It appears to be missing at least http://vt100.net/rm/480z/rml.css. Netscape 6 OTOH is fine. Antonio From celigne at tinyworld.co.uk Sun Oct 14 15:05:28 2001 From: celigne at tinyworld.co.uk (Paul Williams) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:42 2005 Subject: Semi-OT : 4063 pinout References: Message-ID: <3BC9F008.5EA8B880@tinyworld.co.uk> Tony Duell wrote: > > I have come across a chip that I don't have the pinout of. It's a 4063, > presumably 4000-series CMOS. The one in the device is made by RCA. Dave has already typed in the pinout, so I won't repeat it, but the pinout for this is present in the Chip Directory, which I often find helpful. http://www.xs4all.nl/~ganswijk/chipdir/ From Antonio.Carlini at riverstonenet.com Sun Oct 14 15:14:02 2001 From: Antonio.Carlini at riverstonenet.com (Carlini, Antonio) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:42 2005 Subject: Semi-OT : 4063 pinout Message-ID: <3820E2042B6ED5118DC200D0B78EDC47066198@exc-reo1> >Does anybody have the pinouts (16 pin DIL). It's not in any of my CMOS >databooks that I can find. If you do, could you please type them as a >simple text file (as in From www.freetradezone.com: 1. B3 2. (AB) IN 5. (A>B) OUT 6. (A=B) OUT 7. (A <15305.59518.86249.718146@phaduka.neurotica.com> Message-ID: <004501c154f7$4dd4c6d0$c2609040@syzygy2> Hi, Anyone in the New York City area (specifically Staten Island) I have about 40-50 duplicate Compute!'s and Creative Computing's magazines from 1982-1985 available to anyone who wants to come and pick them up, I'm in the middle of packing and moving and I really don't have time to pack these up and run them down to UPS or the PO and ship them off, plus they'll cost a fortune even at book rate... So if anyone wants them, please contact me and we can make arrangements for a pick up, if you not in the area and know a friend close to me, have them pick them up for you and ship them out to you. Curt From philpem at bigfoot.com Sun Oct 14 17:04:02 2001 From: philpem at bigfoot.com (Philip Pemberton) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:42 2005 Subject: classiccmp-digest V1 #747 References: <200110141921.OAA89913@opal.tseinc.com> Message-ID: <000d01c154fc$23869980$f07c7ad5@phoenix> On Sat, 13 Oct 2001 at 22:51:32 -0400 "Glen Goodwin" said: > Philip Pemberton wrote: > > > A while ago I got a Phonemark "Quick Data Drive", aparrently made by > > Entrepo. It uses small endless-loop tape cartridges called "Wafers" (any > > relation to the Rotronics Wafadrive? hmm...). > > Sounds like this device uses the same "stringy floppy" tape as the A&J > Microdrive and the Wafadrive. Looks like it - I found a post on GoogleGroups from someone who said the Wafadrive used the same carts. > > I've had the cover off, and it appears to use a small-ish black plastic > > mechanism with "BSR" printed on it. This mechanism looks (from the front) > > exactly like the ones on the Rotronics Wafadrive. Anyone know if > Wafadrive > > cartridges will work with it? Anyone know where to get Wafadrive > cartridges? > > Try comp.sys.sinclair. Be advised that Entrepo made two types -- A and B. > Same tape, different housing. I have A&J drives (one each A and B type) > hung off my TS2068. Hmm... Live and learn. By TS2068 I assume you mean the Timex/Sinclair 2068. > The drives are slow, and the tapes are extremely fragile, to the point that > I rarely use the drives any more, in order not to destroy my few remaining > tapes. Urk! Time to get a few tapes in while they're still available :-) If the tape is that fragile, I might pull one apart and replace the tape with better quality tape. Or I might design my own "stringy floppy" drive - even more fun! Anyone got a spare QOS wafer? -- Phil. philpem@bigfoot.com http://www.philpem.f9.co.uk/ From jdonogh1 at prodigy.net Sun Oct 14 16:24:24 2001 From: jdonogh1 at prodigy.net (Jim Donoghue) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:42 2005 Subject: Unknown IC Message-ID: <01101417242400.07848@ws1> Anybody know what a 74F582 is? 24-pin DIP, it's on a processor board along with several 74LS181's and various others. Thanks. From mcguire at neurotica.com Sun Oct 14 17:32:19 2001 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:42 2005 Subject: Unknown IC In-Reply-To: Unknown IC (Jim Donoghue) References: <01101417242400.07848@ws1> Message-ID: <15306.4723.620464.664283@phaduka.neurotica.com> On October 14, Jim Donoghue wrote: > Anybody know what a 74F582 is? 24-pin DIP, it's on a processor board along > with several 74LS181's and various others. Thanks. Ahh, the 74LS181s are ALUs, as is the 'F582. Interesting that they used both. I'm curious...what kind of processor is this? -Dave -- Dave McGuire Laurel, MD From plboland at home.com Sat Oct 13 17:29:07 2001 From: plboland at home.com (Patrick L. Boland) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:42 2005 Subject: Burroughs E6000 Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20011013170805.00a3b640@localhost> As late as 1977 ! was using two Burroughs E6000 computers to perform the function of loan payment application. The loans were for health club membership in the Chicago area and a great deal of the rest of the upper midwest area. We had over 50,000 loans outstanding at any time and processed from 1,000 to 3,000 loan payments a day. The machines we had were magnetic stripe ledger card readers and they would punch an output card with the results of the processing of the transaction. The latest information about the loan kept on a master deck of cards was replaced with the card that was punched as a result of the transaction on the E6000. The update was performed on a daily basis using the 085 sorter and a reproducer/collater. During the last 8 to 12 months of the use of the E6000, while a conversion was being worked on, we used only one E6000 and kept the other one for spare parts. Burroughs had run out of spare parts. The system worked, but it was manually work intensive, fraught with errors and created a great deal of work at the end of the month to balance the ledgers. From vance at ikickass.org Sun Oct 14 17:34:55 2001 From: vance at ikickass.org (One Without Reason) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:42 2005 Subject: Compute!'s and Creative Computing's for free! In-Reply-To: <004501c154f7$4dd4c6d0$c2609040@syzygy2> Message-ID: If anyone wants any of these, I can do pickups. Peace... Sridhar On Sun, 14 Oct 2001, Curt Vendel wrote: > Hi, > > Anyone in the New York City area (specifically Staten Island) I have > about 40-50 duplicate Compute!'s and Creative Computing's magazines from > 1982-1985 available to anyone who wants to come and pick them up, I'm in the > middle of packing and moving and I really don't have time to pack these up > and run them down to UPS or the PO and ship them off, plus they'll cost a > fortune even at book rate... > > So if anyone wants them, please contact me and we can make arrangements > for a pick up, if you not in the area and know a friend close to me, have > them pick them up for you and ship them out to you. > > > Curt > > > From at258 at osfn.org Sun Oct 14 17:35:01 2001 From: at258 at osfn.org (Merle K. Peirce) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:42 2005 Subject: tape drive In-Reply-To: <01101417242400.07848@ws1> Message-ID: Does anyone know anything about a Newport tape drive? It looks like our Keronix originally had one, but it is gone. Any thoughts where we might find one? M. K. Peirce Rhode Island Computer Museum, Inc. Shady Lea, Rhode Island "Casta est quam nemo rogavit." - Ovid From Mzthompson at aol.com Sun Oct 14 18:19:49 2001 From: Mzthompson at aol.com (Mzthompson@aol.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:42 2005 Subject: Semi-OT : 4063 pinout Message-ID: <120.58779d8.28fb7795@aol.com> On Sun, 14 Oct 2001, ard@p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) wrote: > I have come across a chip that I don't have the pinout of. It's a 4063, > presumably 4000-series CMOS. The one in the device is made by RCA. > From the function in the circuit, I would guess it's some kind of 4 bit > comparator. Correct, RCA data book lists as CD4063B CMOS 4-Bit Magitude Comparator > Does anybody have the pinouts (16 pin DIL). It's not in any of my CMOS > databooks that I can find. If you do, could you please type them as a > simple text file (as in Here's the pinout: 1 : B3 2 : (AB)in 5 : (A>B)out 6 : (A=B)out 7 : (A The '582 is carry lookahead generator if memory serves. Used to speed up addition of long words. Allison -----Original Message----- From: Dave McGuire To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org Date: Sunday, October 14, 2001 7:05 PM Subject: Re: Unknown IC >On October 14, Jim Donoghue wrote: >> Anybody know what a 74F582 is? 24-pin DIP, it's on a processor board along >> with several 74LS181's and various others. Thanks. > > Ahh, the 74LS181s are ALUs, as is the 'F582. Interesting that they >used both. I'm curious...what kind of processor is this? > > -Dave > >-- >Dave McGuire >Laurel, MD From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun Oct 14 17:52:20 2001 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:42 2005 Subject: Semi-OT : 4063 pinout In-Reply-To: <15305.59518.86249.718146@phaduka.neurotica.com> from "Dave McGuire" at Oct 14, 1 03:33:18 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 635 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20011014/8fba47aa/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun Oct 14 18:14:56 2001 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:42 2005 Subject: Unknown IC In-Reply-To: <01101417242400.07848@ws1> from "Jim Donoghue" at Oct 14, 1 05:24:24 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 780 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20011015/b19dad42/attachment.ksh From jrkeys at concentric.net Sun Oct 14 18:54:05 2001 From: jrkeys at concentric.net (John R. Keys Jr.) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:42 2005 Subject: Cromemco Pick-up on 10-13-01 Message-ID: <005001c1550b$83788740$2f721fd1@default> This pass Saturday was a long drive MN to IL (12 hours total drive time) to pick up 2- Cromemco System Three's, a Systemv CS-300, one new in the box KB for these systems, lots of manuals and software for them, a Cipher 1600BPI tape unit, a model BRZ-III fan for the units, and some parts. All will have to be cleaned up as they are pretty dirty and need some loving care. The guy had over 1600sq feet of computer stuff he is selling most on eBay.:-( At a local thrift I got some Sega master stuff, like the 3D glasses that have been selling on eBay for $50, I got mine for a couple dollars. Got a Virtual Boy system for $11.99. Got some Atari 2600 stuff also they were selling cartridges for 80 cents and they had two big boxes full. Now I will start the clean-up and entering all the info into the database (my paper notebooks). Keep computing John From greg at cosc.canterbury.ac.nz Sun Oct 14 19:16:53 2001 From: greg at cosc.canterbury.ac.nz (Greg Ewing) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:42 2005 Subject: ArcNet and the Pursuit of Multiple Topologies In-Reply-To: <3BC90B81.5BCFD8E9@verizon.net> Message-ID: <200110150016.NAA07256@s454.cosc.canterbury.ac.nz> Jan Koller : > Message in a bottle ??? Chinese whispers? Greg Ewing, Computer Science Dept, +--------------------------------------+ University of Canterbury, | A citizen of NewZealandCorp, a | Christchurch, New Zealand | wholly-owned subsidiary of USA Inc. | greg@cosc.canterbury.ac.nz +--------------------------------------+ From jimoaks at fuse.net Sun Oct 14 19:25:16 2001 From: jimoaks at fuse.net (Jim Oaks) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:43 2005 Subject: Compute!'s and Creative Computing's for free! In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <000001c1550f$dfcb5640$7a1c8f0a@e5g7a0> Id love to get them, im in Cincinnati Let me know what we need to do. Jim -----Original Message----- From: owner-classiccmp@classiccmp.org [mailto:owner-classiccmp@classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of One Without Reason Sent: Sunday, October 14, 2001 6:35 PM To: Curt Vendel Cc: classiccmp@classiccmp.org Subject: Re: Compute!'s and Creative Computing's for free! If anyone wants any of these, I can do pickups. Peace... Sridhar On Sun, 14 Oct 2001, Curt Vendel wrote: > Hi, > > Anyone in the New York City area (specifically Staten Island) I have > about 40-50 duplicate Compute!'s and Creative Computing's magazines from > 1982-1985 available to anyone who wants to come and pick them up, I'm in the > middle of packing and moving and I really don't have time to pack these up > and run them down to UPS or the PO and ship them off, plus they'll cost a > fortune even at book rate... > > So if anyone wants them, please contact me and we can make arrangements > for a pick up, if you not in the area and know a friend close to me, have > them pick them up for you and ship them out to you. > > > Curt > > > From jdonogh1 at prodigy.net Sun Oct 14 20:32:05 2001 From: jdonogh1 at prodigy.net (Jim Donoghue) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:43 2005 Subject: Unknown IC In-Reply-To: <15306.4723.620464.664283@phaduka.neurotica.com> References: <01101417242400.07848@ws1> <15306.4723.620464.664283@phaduka.neurotica.com> Message-ID: <01101421320500.08374@ws1> On Sunday 14 October 2001 06:32 pm, you wrote: > On October 14, Jim Donoghue wrote: > > Anybody know what a 74F582 is? 24-pin DIP, it's on a processor board > > along with several 74LS181's and various others. Thanks. > > Ahh, the 74LS181s are ALUs, as is the 'F582. Interesting that they > used both. I'm curious...what kind of processor is this? > > -Dave Wang CP-5 CPU board from a VS5E. 32-bit, loads cpu microcode from the system disk into static RAM chips on the CPU board. Strange, but interesting, stuff. From acme_ent at bellsouth.net Sun Oct 14 22:12:31 2001 From: acme_ent at bellsouth.net (Glen Goodwin) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:43 2005 Subject: Data storage and transmission (was Re: ArcNet) Message-ID: <20011015031419.NUAO1424.imf17bis.bellsouth.net@thegoodw> > > > > 4) Any other interesting topologies I should try? > > How about MicroWave transmission ? > > Or data encoded onto laser beams? > > Or satellite bounced? How about Earth-Moon-Earth? Or data-encoded chromosomal strings? Hmm, or fragrances (data stored in the molecules of a volatile chemical)? Or -- Data encoded in the hand gestures of a person depicted in a video tape made available to the world. Networking, indeed. Glen 0/0 From vze2mnvr at verizon.net Sun Oct 14 22:17:06 2001 From: vze2mnvr at verizon.net (Jan Koller) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:43 2005 Subject: ArcNet and the Pursuit of Multiple Topologies References: <200110150016.NAA07256@s454.cosc.canterbury.ac.nz> Message-ID: <3BCA5532.8A1C44A1@verizon.net> Hi Greg, Ahhhh, What are Chinese whispers? Also, > A citizen of NewZealandCorp, a wholly-owned subsidiary of USA Inc. I hope you don't mind my asking, but is the US in disfavor with the citizens of New Zealand? And if so, why? Greg Ewing wrote: > > Jan Koller : > > > Message in a bottle ??? > > Chinese whispers? > > Greg Ewing, Computer Science Dept, +--------------------------------------+ > University of Canterbury, | A citizen of NewZealandCorp, a | > Christchurch, New Zealand | wholly-owned subsidiary of USA Inc. | > greg@cosc.canterbury.ac.nz +--------------------------------------+ From curt at atari-history.com Sun Oct 14 22:16:48 2001 From: curt at atari-history.com (Curt Vendel) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:43 2005 Subject: Compute!'s and Creative Computing's for free! References: <000001c1550f$dfcb5640$7a1c8f0a@e5g7a0> Message-ID: <001901c15527$d3bdee90$c2609040@syzygy2> Jim, Someone may be picking up the Creative Computing, if you want the Compute!'s too, then perhaps the same person (Sidhar) would be willing to work things out with you as well. Curt ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jim Oaks" To: Sent: Sunday, October 14, 2001 8:25 PM Subject: RE: Compute!'s and Creative Computing's for free! > Id love to get them, im in Cincinnati Let me know what we need to do. > > > Jim > > > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-classiccmp@classiccmp.org > [mailto:owner-classiccmp@classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of One Without Reason > Sent: Sunday, October 14, 2001 6:35 PM > To: Curt Vendel > Cc: classiccmp@classiccmp.org > Subject: Re: Compute!'s and Creative Computing's for free! > > > If anyone wants any of these, I can do pickups. > > Peace... Sridhar > > On Sun, 14 Oct 2001, Curt Vendel wrote: > > > Hi, > > > > Anyone in the New York City area (specifically Staten Island) I > have > > about 40-50 duplicate Compute!'s and Creative Computing's magazines > from > > 1982-1985 available to anyone who wants to come and pick them up, I'm > in the > > middle of packing and moving and I really don't have time to pack > these up > > and run them down to UPS or the PO and ship them off, plus they'll > cost a > > fortune even at book rate... > > > > So if anyone wants them, please contact me and we can make > arrangements > > for a pick up, if you not in the area and know a friend close to me, > have > > them pick them up for you and ship them out to you. > > > > > > Curt > > > > > > > > > From mcguire at neurotica.com Sun Oct 14 22:31:10 2001 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:43 2005 Subject: Unknown IC In-Reply-To: Re: Unknown IC (Jim Donoghue) References: <01101417242400.07848@ws1> <15306.4723.620464.664283@phaduka.neurotica.com> <01101421320500.08374@ws1> Message-ID: <15306.22654.42337.798368@phaduka.neurotica.com> On October 14, Jim Donoghue wrote: > > Ahh, the 74LS181s are ALUs, as is the 'F582. Interesting that they > > used both. I'm curious...what kind of processor is this? > > Wang CP-5 CPU board from a VS5E. 32-bit, loads cpu microcode from the system > disk into static RAM chips on the CPU board. Strange, but interesting, stuff. Ahh, neat! I've heard a bit about Wang VS systems, but I had no idea they were TTL CPUs. Very cool. How wide is the processor? The 74LS181 is 4 bits wide...how many does it use? Have you had a chance to take pics of this system? I'd be highly interested in seeing them if so. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Laurel, MD From acme_ent at bellsouth.net Sun Oct 14 22:41:49 2001 From: acme_ent at bellsouth.net (Glen Goodwin) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:43 2005 Subject: classiccmp-digest V1 #747 Message-ID: <20011015034335.MULS658.imf11bis.bellsouth.net@thegoodw> > > Philip Pemberton wrote: > > > > > A while ago I got a Phonemark "Quick Data Drive", aparrently made by > > > Entrepo. It uses small endless-loop tape cartridges called "Wafers" (any > > > relation to the Rotronics Wafadrive? hmm...). > > Try comp.sys.sinclair. Be advised that Entrepo made two types -- A and B. > > Same tape, different housing. I have A&J drives (one each A and B type) > > hung off my TS2068. > Hmm... Live and learn. > By TS2068 I assume you mean the Timex/Sinclair 2068. Correct. > > The drives are slow, and the tapes are extremely fragile, to the point > that > > I rarely use the drives any more, in order not to destroy my few remaining > > tapes. > Urk! Time to get a few tapes in while they're still available :-) > If the tape is that fragile, I might pull one apart and replace the tape > with better quality tape. I hope your eyes are better than mine -- these friggin things are *tiny.* > Or I might design my own "stringy floppy" drive - even more fun! The stringy floppy is flawed the same way an 8-track audio tape is -- it only moves in one direction. As a result, A&J didn't write any OS for their drives, just a couple of simple commands. You search for the file you want, and you either find it (after several minutes) or you don't (after several minutes). > Anyone got a spare QOS wafer? Nope. Glen 0/0 From zaft at azstarnet.com Sun Oct 14 22:51:11 2001 From: zaft at azstarnet.com (Gordon C. Zaft) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:43 2005 Subject: Semi-OT : 4063 pinout In-Reply-To: <3BC9F008.5EA8B880@tinyworld.co.uk> References: Message-ID: <4.3.2.7.2.20011014205041.0285ff80@pop.azstarnet.com> Another useful resource is: http://www.falstaff.demon.co.uk/GIICM.html At 09:05 PM 10/14/2001 +0100, you wrote: >Tony Duell wrote: > > > > I have come across a chip that I don't have the pinout of. It's a 4063, > > presumably 4000-series CMOS. The one in the device is made by RCA. > >Dave has already typed in the pinout, so I won't repeat it, but the >pinout for this is present in the Chip Directory, which I often find >helpful. > >http://www.xs4all.nl/~ganswijk/chipdir/ Gordon Zaft zaft@azstarnet.com From greg at cosc.canterbury.ac.nz Sun Oct 14 23:00:06 2001 From: greg at cosc.canterbury.ac.nz (Greg Ewing) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:43 2005 Subject: ArcNet and the Pursuit of Multiple Topologies In-Reply-To: <3BCA5532.8A1C44A1@verizon.net> Message-ID: <200110150400.RAA07281@s454.cosc.canterbury.ac.nz> Jan Koller : > Ahhhh, What are Chinese whispers? It's a game where you set up a chain of people, and whisper some message in the ear of the first one, who whispers it to the next one, etc. When it gets to the far end you compare it with the original message, usually with amusing results due to accumulation of errors along the way. > > A citizen of NewZealandCorp, a wholly-owned subsidiary of USA Inc. > > I hope you don't mind my asking, but is the US in disfavor with > the citizens of New Zealand? Not really. That comment isn't directed at the US, but at the last few NZ governments, who seem to have been bent on privatising all our public assets and selling them to big US companies. If it goes on like that, you're going to own the whole country! Greg Ewing, Computer Science Dept, +--------------------------------------+ University of Canterbury, | A citizen of NewZealandCorp, a | Christchurch, New Zealand | wholly-owned subsidiary of USA Inc. | greg@cosc.canterbury.ac.nz +--------------------------------------+ From vze2mnvr at verizon.net Sun Oct 14 23:01:33 2001 From: vze2mnvr at verizon.net (Jan Koller) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:43 2005 Subject: Data storage and transmission (was Re: ArcNet) References: <20011015031419.NUAO1424.imf17bis.bellsouth.net@thegoodw> Message-ID: <3BCA5F9D.1E6C1DB8@verizon.net> > Or -- > Data encoded in the hand gestures of a person depicted in a video > tape made available to the world. Now were getting scary. Brings to mind the concerns about how the terrorists may be transmitting messages. Glen Goodwin wrote: > > > > > > 4) Any other interesting topologies I should try? > > > > How about MicroWave transmission ? > > > > Or data encoded onto laser beams? > > > > Or satellite bounced? > > How about Earth-Moon-Earth? Or data-encoded chromosomal strings? Hmm, or > fragrances (data stored in the molecules of a volatile chemical)? > > Or -- > > Data encoded in the hand gestures of a person depicted in a video tape made > available to the world. > > Networking, indeed. > > Glen > 0/0 From greg at cosc.canterbury.ac.nz Sun Oct 14 23:02:28 2001 From: greg at cosc.canterbury.ac.nz (Greg Ewing) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:43 2005 Subject: Data storage and transmission (was Re: ArcNet) In-Reply-To: <20011015031419.NUAO1424.imf17bis.bellsouth.net@thegoodw> Message-ID: <200110150402.RAA07284@s454.cosc.canterbury.ac.nz> Glen Goodwin : > Or data-encoded chromosomal strings? Rather than packet loss, you may have a problem with rampant packet duplication! Greg Ewing, Computer Science Dept, +--------------------------------------+ University of Canterbury, | A citizen of NewZealandCorp, a | Christchurch, New Zealand | wholly-owned subsidiary of USA Inc. | greg@cosc.canterbury.ac.nz +--------------------------------------+ From mcguire at neurotica.com Sun Oct 14 23:07:46 2001 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:43 2005 Subject: ArcNet and the Pursuit of Multiple Topologies In-Reply-To: Re: ArcNet and the Pursuit of Multiple Topologies (Jan Koller) References: <200110150016.NAA07256@s454.cosc.canterbury.ac.nz> <3BCA5532.8A1C44A1@verizon.net> Message-ID: <15306.24850.340733.940233@phaduka.neurotica.com> On October 14, Jan Koller wrote: > > A citizen of NewZealandCorp, a wholly-owned subsidiary of USA Inc. > > I hope you don't mind my asking, but is the US in disfavor with > the citizens of New Zealand? And if so, why? I was going to ask about that, but I didn't want to "make any waves". :) -Dave -- Dave McGuire Laurel, MD From ken at seefried.com Sun Oct 14 23:09:24 2001 From: ken at seefried.com (Ken Seefried) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:43 2005 Subject: RS6000 7012-320H In-Reply-To: <200110141921.OAA89913@opal.tseinc.com> References: <200110141921.OAA89913@opal.tseinc.com> Message-ID: <20011015040924.450.qmail@mail.seefried.com> >If the internal disk is SCSI, you could attach it to any other system >(for example Linux), and write a utility that goes through the raw >disk looking for 'root:\([^:]*\):0:0:' and replace it with 'root::0:0:\1' Good thought, but it's not quite that easy. As I recall, AIX defaults to the JFS file system. This is an IBM proprietary, journalized filesystem, and would not be trivial to "write a utility" to safely modify it. Standard Linux (or any other Unix, for that matter) will not recognize it. Luckily, there is a Linux port of JFS (http://oss.software.ibm.com/jfs/). I dunno if it will mount a native JFS filesystem from a legacy AIX box, but it should show you what you need to do to get started. Oh, yeah...AIX stores passwords in /etc/security, or somesuch odd directory. Wants to be a TCB, but isn't really a TCB. I liked and respected AIX...but then I didn't pretend it was really Unix. Ken From vze2mnvr at verizon.net Sun Oct 14 23:13:36 2001 From: vze2mnvr at verizon.net (Jan Koller) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:43 2005 Subject: Data storage and transmission (was Re: ArcNet) References: <20011015031419.NUAO1424.imf17bis.bellsouth.net@thegoodw> Message-ID: <3BCA6270.D8C9DA30@verizon.net> > > How about MicroWave transmission ? > > Or data encoded onto laser beams? > > Or satellite bounced? Actually these three are probably something Dave McGuire could actually do. While the rest of us have watches and clocks, I heard through the grapevine he has his own fully functional Atomic Clock. Wouldn't it be wild to transmit messages to one's distant offspring by encoding them onto DNA. But I'm sure we shouldn't try it, because it would probably have unforseen disastrous effects. Glen Goodwin wrote: > > > > > > 4) Any other interesting topologies I should try? > > > > How about MicroWave transmission ? > > > > Or data encoded onto laser beams? > > > > Or satellite bounced? > > How about Earth-Moon-Earth? Or data-encoded chromosomal strings? Hmm, or > fragrances (data stored in the molecules of a volatile chemical)? > > Or -- > > Data encoded in the hand gestures of a person depicted in a video tape made > available to the world. > > Networking, indeed. > > Glen > 0/0 From ken at seefried.com Sun Oct 14 23:47:08 2001 From: ken at seefried.com (Ken Seefried) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:43 2005 Subject: Slightly OT: What to do with a DEC 3000/300? In-Reply-To: <200110141921.OAA89913@opal.tseinc.com> References: <200110141921.OAA89913@opal.tseinc.com> Message-ID: <20011015044708.506.qmail@mail.seefried.com> Sorry to be late to this topic. As it happens, I've got a DEC 3000/300X (175MHz 21064, 64MB RAM, 2x2GB Disk, NetBSD 1.5.1 + fixes) in production. I'm fond of it, but probably more for the fact that it comes in a rackmount sled, which appears to be quite rare. It fits nice at the co-hosting facility (it's www.thistle.com, but it doesn't talk to anyone but me right now). What I know: Memory: No...you can't put just anything into it. It's got 8 72-pin SIMM slots, but it will only accept 8MB, true parity, generic SIMMs (giving 64MB). And it's damn finicky about those. My 3000s spits on SIMMs that everything else in the basement has no trouble with. It will also accept Digital custom 32MB true parity SIMMs (giving 256MB). Nothing else that I've found will work, but that could just be me. If anyone has any of these SIMMs they don't want, do let me know... Video: AFAIK, none of the free *nix systems support the built in TC frame buffers. VMS and OSF/1, nee Tru64 do. The 3000 will run X clients and display to another machine. Real men do serial consoles anyway. Speed: Slow. Really slow. Not PC532 slow, but not something I'd trade one of my PPro 200s for (other than the swanky rack-mount sled). Definately useful for low volume web, mail, etc., but "make build" isn't pleasant. My PC64-275 is way, way faster, but still not that fast. There's lot's of good info out there, and I know there are people working to support all that isn't currently supported. Drop me a note if anyone wants to know anything else. Ken From tarsi at binhost.com Sun Oct 14 23:41:06 2001 From: tarsi at binhost.com (Tarsi) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:43 2005 Subject: ArcNet and the Pursuit of Multiple Topologies In-Reply-To: <200110122046.NAA01163@ellie.ssl.berkeley.edu> References: <200110122046.NAA01163@ellie.ssl.berkeley.edu> Message-ID: <01101423410601.10520@simon> Don't worry about ThickNet, just pick up a couple of spare > > 10bT or 10b2 tranceivers for the odd box with an AUI port. > > That's definitely the way to go. Of course, I have 800 feet of cat5 run through my house and even out to the garage to network. My curiosities extend beyond practicalities, though. :) I want to run those other nets _because_ I can, not because it's efficient. :) Tarsi 210 From mythtech at Mac.com Sun Oct 14 23:56:45 2001 From: mythtech at Mac.com (Chris) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:43 2005 Subject: Data storage and transmission (was Re: ArcNet) Message-ID: >Data encoded in the hand gestures of a person depicted in a video tape made >available to the world. This has been done. US military hostages and POWs have done this in the past when being forced to give statements on behalf of their captors. And I am sure US solders are not the only ones trained to do something like this. -chris From dec.parts at verizon.net Sun Oct 14 23:56:29 2001 From: dec.parts at verizon.net (Info from LSI) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:43 2005 Subject: SCSI Info requested by David Woyciesjes Message-ID: <3BCA6C7D.383A@verizon.net> Hello David, I finally got at that info you requested. It turned out that there was some other related info that I thought you might like also. Probably more than you've ever wanted to know about SCSI, up to SCSI-3 info? Of course it was being stored on a SCSI drive that, at the time, wasn't hooked to this system, which is why I asked for your patience. Anyone who is interested must DL and save it within the next couple of days, as I have very limited web space and can't leave it there long. This is the only time I can post it. So, perhaps someone else with more space can host it for a longer period of time. http://members.bellatlantic.net/~vze2mj6m/scsi_info/scsi-info-15kb.htm http://members.bellatlantic.net/~vze2mj6m/scsi_info/scsi_faq-145kb.txt http://members.bellatlantic.net/~vze2mj6m/scsi_info/scsi2-spec-1632kb.txt Sincerely, Bennett From chobbs at socal.rr.com Mon Oct 15 01:34:48 2001 From: chobbs at socal.rr.com (charles hobbs) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:43 2005 Subject: RetroX computer shop in London... References: <3820E2042B6ED5118DC200D0B78EDC47066196@exc-reo1> Message-ID: <3BCA8388.4B4D9682@socal.rr.com> "Carlini, Antonio" wrote: > >> It's mostly lower end 8-bit software, but it might be worth a > peek...they're > > > >Sure, it's not 100% my main interest, but they might have something > that > >I need. Anyway, it can't hurt to look :-) > > Is this the shop that has the owner's Altair in some > basement or other? Or am I misremembering > some other snippet? If there was an Altair there, I didn't see it... From mranalog at home.com Mon Oct 15 03:47:28 2001 From: mranalog at home.com (Doug Coward) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:43 2005 Subject: CompuPro and 86-DOS Message-ID: <3BCAA2A0.FC27F332@home.com> This last weekend I pulled my old rack mount CompuPro system out of storage and cleaned it up. The last time I used this system was about 15 years ago and I only used it to edit my resume in Wordstar. The system consists of: a "CPU 8085/88" a "DISK 1" controller a "SYSTEM SUPPORT 1" for the console two "RAM 16" boards for a total of 128K and two Qume 842 8" floppy drives After one small capacitor fire I had the system up and running. I went through all of the 8" diskettes I could find to determine what would boot. So far, I have bootable disks for CP/M 2.2, CP/M 86, and CP/M 8-16. But the disks that I really want to read are in 86-DOS format according to the label. I have disks that claim to be 86-DOS boot disks but they wouldn't boot. Some of these disks I'm having problems with appear to be SSSD 26 sectors/ 128 bytes if that helps. Can anyone point me in the direction I need to go in order to be able to boot 86-DOS? Regards, --Doug ========================================= Doug Coward @ home in Poulsbo, WA Analog Computer Online Museum and History Center http://www.best.com/~dcoward/analog ========================================= From als at thangorodrim.de Mon Oct 15 04:21:38 2001 From: als at thangorodrim.de (Alexander Schreiber) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:43 2005 Subject: RS6000 7012-320H In-Reply-To: <20011015040924.450.qmail@mail.seefried.com>; from ken@seefried.com on Mon, Oct 15, 2001 at 04:09:24AM +0000 References: <200110141921.OAA89913@opal.tseinc.com> <20011015040924.450.qmail@mail.seefried.com> Message-ID: <20011015112138.A11707@mordor.angband.thangorodrim.de> Hi! On Mon, Oct 15, 2001 at 04:09:24AM +0000, Ken Seefried wrote: > >If the internal disk is SCSI, you could attach it to any other system > >(for example Linux), and write a utility that goes through the raw > >disk looking for 'root:\([^:]*\):0:0:' and replace it with 'root::0:0:\1' > > Good thought, but it's not quite that easy. As I recall, AIX defaults to > the JFS file system. This is an IBM proprietary, journalized filesystem, > and would not be trivial to "write a utility" to safely modify it. Standard > Linux (or any other Unix, for that matter) will not recognize it. This is not a problem - the idea is going through the _raw_ device and replacing any occurrences of the password hash (with some padding). So you don't need to know anything about the filesystem layout, as long as the files in question are stored by the filesystem in plain (which almost all filesystems do). > Luckily, there is a Linux port of JFS (http://oss.software.ibm.com/jfs/). I > dunno if it will mount a native JFS filesystem from a legacy AIX box, but it > should show you what you need to do to get started. Of course, if this works it would be a much easier approach than hacking raw blocks on disk. Regards, Alex. -- If UNIX is dead, the necromancer who is animating the corpse is doing a damn fine job. -- Par Leijonhufvud (parlei@algonet.se) in a.s.r. From dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com Mon Oct 15 06:26:45 2001 From: dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com (Douglas Quebbeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:43 2005 Subject: ArcNet and the Pursuit of Multiple Topologies Message-ID: <7A9BACCEF0171D4FB77019F5104CDD372257D9@jeffserver.tegjeff.com> > Jan Koller : > > > Ahhhh, What are Chinese whispers? > > It's a game where you set up a chain of people, and > whisper some message in the ear of the first one, who > whispers it to the next one, etc. When it gets to the > far end you compare it with the original message, > usually with amusing results due to accumulation of > errors along the way. In Cub Scouts, we called this "The Telephone Game". -dq From spectre at stockholm.ptloma.edu Mon Oct 15 07:47:04 2001 From: spectre at stockholm.ptloma.edu (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:43 2005 Subject: RS6000 7012-320H In-Reply-To: <20011015040924.450.qmail@mail.seefried.com> from Ken Seefried at "Oct 15, 1 04:09:24 am" Message-ID: <200110151247.FAA10068@stockholm.ptloma.edu> > Luckily, there is a Linux port of JFS (http://oss.software.ibm.com/jfs/). I > dunno if it will mount a native JFS filesystem from a legacy AIX box, but it > should show you what you need to do to get started. This looks quite promising for if I decide to slap LinuxPPC on this Apple Network Server. I don't want to lose my jfs volumes (AIX 4.1.x). -- ----------------------------- personal page: http://www.armory.com/~spectre/ -- Cameron Kaiser, Point Loma Nazarene University * ckaiser@stockholm.ptloma.edu -- They make a desert and call it peace. -- Tacitus --------------------------- From r_beaudry at hotmail.com Mon Oct 15 07:42:55 2001 From: r_beaudry at hotmail.com (Rich Beaudry) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:43 2005 Subject: Semi-OT : 4063 pinout Message-ID: Tony, According to a datasheet downloaded from www.freetradezone.com (free registration, and supposedly 12 million component datasheets -- I believe it, as there's yet to be a part I haven't found).... It's a CMOS 4-bit magnitude comparator... 1: B3 2: (A < B) IN 3: (A = B) IN 4: (A > B) IN 5: (A > B) OUT 6: (A = B) OUT 7: (A < B) OUT 8: VSS 9: B0 10: A0 11: B1 12: A1 13: A2 14: B2 15: A3 16: VDD I can email the datasheet if you'd like.... It's a 220KB .PDF file... Rich B. "They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety." -- Ben Franklin From optimus at canit.se Sun Oct 14 22:11:14 2001 From: optimus at canit.se (Iggy Drougge) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:43 2005 Subject: Unknown IC In-Reply-To: <15306.4723.620464.664283@phaduka.neurotica.com> Message-ID: <836.688T700T2514101optimus@canit.se> Dave McGuire skrev: >On October 14, Jim Donoghue wrote: >> Anybody know what a 74F582 is? 24-pin DIP, it's on a processor board along >> with several 74LS181's and various others. Thanks. > Ahh, the 74LS181s are ALUs, as is the 'F582. Interesting that they >used both. I'm curious...what kind of processor is this? Am I the only one who finds it a bit perverse that there are 74xxx standard TTL circuits for such complex functions as ALUs? I thought that the way to go would be to construct it out of simpler TTL circuits, such as all the 740x gates, not buying it as a package. I suppose I'm not used to the concept of single 74xxx circuits carrying out such complex tasks. -- En ligne avec Thor 2.6a. Iggy tipsar: Koppla aldrig en C128-transformator till en A500. ?ven om kontakterna ser likadana ut, ligger sp?nningarna fel. From mcguire at neurotica.com Mon Oct 15 10:46:41 2001 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:43 2005 Subject: Unknown IC In-Reply-To: Re: Unknown IC (Iggy Drougge) References: <15306.4723.620464.664283@phaduka.neurotica.com> <836.688T700T2514101optimus@canit.se> Message-ID: <15307.1249.13390.739270@phaduka.neurotica.com> On October 15, Iggy Drougge wrote: > Am I the only one who finds it a bit perverse that there are 74xxx standard > TTL circuits for such complex functions as ALUs? I thought that the way to go > would be to construct it out of simpler TTL circuits, such as all the 740x > gates, not buying it as a package. I suppose I'm not used to the concept of > single 74xxx circuits carrying out such complex tasks. An ALU isn't that complex, really. Find a TTL databook and look at the logic diagram of a '181. There's not that much to it. More complex and less "generic" than a 7400 quad NAND gate, sure... -Dave -- Dave McGuire Laurel, MD From sipke at wxs.nl Mon Oct 15 12:00:49 2001 From: sipke at wxs.nl (Sipke de Wal) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:43 2005 Subject: Unknown IC References: <836.688T700T2514101optimus@canit.se> Message-ID: <002401c1559a$f85c2f00$030101ac@boll.casema.net> There is SSI and there is MSI In the latter days of MSI it got a bit LSI-ish TRUE-LSI was reserved for P-Mos N-Mos and upward....... Sipke de Wal ---------------------------------------------- http://xgistor.ath.cx ---------------------------------------------- ----- Original Message ----- From: Iggy Drougge To: Dave McGuire Sent: Monday, October 15, 2001 5:11 AM Subject: Re: Unknown IC Dave McGuire skrev: >On October 14, Jim Donoghue wrote: >> Anybody know what a 74F582 is? 24-pin DIP, it's on a processor board along >> with several 74LS181's and various others. Thanks. > Ahh, the 74LS181s are ALUs, as is the 'F582. Interesting that they >used both. I'm curious...what kind of processor is this? Am I the only one who finds it a bit perverse that there are 74xxx standard TTL circuits for such complex functions as ALUs? I thought that the way to go would be to construct it out of simpler TTL circuits, such as all the 740x gates, not buying it as a package. I suppose I'm not used to the concept of single 74xxx circuits carrying out such complex tasks. -- En ligne avec Thor 2.6a. Iggy tipsar: Koppla aldrig en C128-transformator till en A500. ?ven om kontakterna ser likadana ut, ligger sp?nningarna fel. From jtinker at coin.org Mon Oct 15 12:13:44 2001 From: jtinker at coin.org (jtinker@coin.org) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:43 2005 Subject: looking for documentation for 1963 minuteman missile computer Message-ID: <200110151649.f9FGntN26300@mail.mcmsys.com> I'm looking for documentation for a 1963 minuteman missile navigation computer. Any leads would be appreciated. Thanks, John Tinker From DAW at yalepress3.unipress.yale.edu Mon Oct 15 12:22:40 2001 From: DAW at yalepress3.unipress.yale.edu (David Woyciesjes) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:43 2005 Subject: Sigma Designs OneReel Tape Message-ID: <9011A52E011ED311B4280004AC1BA6150146716D@yalepress3.unipress.yale.edu> ! Forgot to mention... ! ! There were SCSI-interfaced Ethernet adapters for ! SCSI-equipped Macs... got one of those, too... I would like to get my hands on one, maybe 2 or 3 of these. Anyone got spares? --- David A Woyciesjes --- C & IS Support Specialist --- Yale University Press --- mailto:david.woyciesjes@yale.edu --- (203) 432-0953 --- ICQ # - 905818 From geneb at deltasoft.com Mon Oct 15 12:58:52 2001 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (Gene Buckle) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:43 2005 Subject: looking for documentation for 1963 minuteman missile computer In-Reply-To: <200110151649.f9FGntN26300@mail.mcmsys.com> Message-ID: > I'm looking for documentation for a 1963 minuteman missile navigation > computer. Any leads would be appreciated. > *spits coffee on monitor* You're kidding, right? g. From paul at orchard.wccnet.org Mon Oct 15 12:58:03 2001 From: paul at orchard.wccnet.org (Paul R. Santa-Maria) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:43 2005 Subject: HP-UX items Message-ID: I have acquired some HP-UX 9000 series 700/800 items that I have no clue about and no use for. 1. Two identical manuals: "Installing HP-UX 10.10 and Updating from HP-UX 10.0x to 10.10." 2. Manual: "Support Media User's Manual PA-RISC Computer Systems." 3. CD-ROMs: "HP Instant Information CD HP-UX Release 10." June 1998 and April 1998. 4. CD-ROM: "HP-UX Diagnostic/Independent Product Release Media." June 1998 5. CD-ROMs: "10.20 Hardware Extensions 2.0 HP-UX 10.20 Servers" April 1998 "HP-UX Extensions Software" April 1998 6. CD-ROM: "HP-UX Recovery Release 10.20" 7. Four CD-ROMs: HP-UX Applications Release 10.20" Disks 1 through 4. June 1998. Can anyone use these? Paul R. Santa-Maria Monroe, Michigan USA From fernande at internet1.net Mon Oct 15 12:57:21 2001 From: fernande at internet1.net (Chad Fernandez) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:43 2005 Subject: looking for documentation for 1963 minuteman missile computer References: <200110151649.f9FGntN26300@mail.mcmsys.com> Message-ID: <3BCB2381.C4DC462F@internet1.net> Why, you trying to get an old missle working? :-) Chad Fernandez Michigan, USA jtinker@coin.org wrote: > > I'm looking for documentation for a 1963 minuteman missile navigation > computer. Any leads would be appreciated. > > Thanks, > John Tinker From erd_6502 at yahoo.com Mon Oct 15 13:04:53 2001 From: erd_6502 at yahoo.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:43 2005 Subject: Compute!'s and Creative Computing's for free! In-Reply-To: <004501c154f7$4dd4c6d0$c2609040@syzygy2> Message-ID: <20011015180453.53372.qmail@web20108.mail.yahoo.com> --- Curt Vendel wrote: > Hi, > > Anyone in the New York City area... I'm going to be visiting NYC this weekend (planning on catching "The Fantasticks" before it ends its run in January. I'd love to be able to get the Creative Computing's, but I see they are already claimed. I would be interested in the Compute!'s unless they, too, have been claimed. -ethan __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Make a great connection at Yahoo! Personals. http://personals.yahoo.com From mikeford at socal.rr.com Mon Oct 15 13:16:57 2001 From: mikeford at socal.rr.com (Mike Ford) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:43 2005 Subject: Sigma Designs OneReel Tape In-Reply-To: <9011A52E011ED311B4280004AC1BA6150146716D@yalepress3.unipress.yale.edu> Message-ID: >! Forgot to mention... >! >! There were SCSI-interfaced Ethernet adapters for >! SCSI-equipped Macs... got one of those, too... > >I would like to get my hands on one, maybe 2 or 3 of these. Anyone got >spares? I've just had a bit of a run on my stock and all that I have right now are claimed. I should have a few more in the next month or so. Email me and I can put you on a list. From erd_6502 at yahoo.com Mon Oct 15 13:18:10 2001 From: erd_6502 at yahoo.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:43 2005 Subject: ArcNet and the Pursuit of Multiple Topologies In-Reply-To: <200110122046.NAA01163@ellie.ssl.berkeley.edu> Message-ID: <20011015181810.67395.qmail@web20101.mail.yahoo.com> --- "Eric J. Korpela" wrote: > > On the Ethernet side, I'd not worry about specific 10bT and ThickNet > > segments. > > Just wired the house with Cat-5 this week. 10bT has the advantage that > it's also 100bT with a change of equipment. I know you probably know what you meant, but to me, that statement is misleading, or rather, to someone who knows little about networking, taking the second sentence out of context could lead trouble. phone wire - 2 pair or more, good for analog telephones CAT-3 - will pass 10mbps traffic (or analog telephone traffic) CAT-4 - good for token ring CAT-5 - good for most inexpensive networking technologies CAT-5e - needed for transmission technologies that put > 100mbps on a single pair. 10BaseT can use CAT-3 or better. 16mbps Token Ring needs CAT-5 or better. 100Base-TX needs CAT-5 (including CAT-5 jacks!) Don't recall what 100Base-T4 needs (uses more than 2 pairs in the cable to lower the required per-pair-bandwidth). I mention jacks because I have a pile of punchdown blocks, etc., that came from a sheet of plywood at a former employer's access point when we ripped out the Token Thing hardware and installed CAT-5 (and new wires). I would not expect to be able to use these blocks in a 100mbps environment. I did get a nifty Nevada Western 19" rack-mountable RJ-11- to-RJ-21 (Telco 50) patch panel that the baluns hung off of, if I ever decided to do IBMish things at home. Yes, you can untwist things past 1cm and still ring out as CAT-5 from end to end, but the further you deviate from the published spec, the shorter haul you can expect true CAT-5 performance out of your network. Same with using video coax cable (RJ-62) for Ethernet (RG-58) - 75 ohms impedance vs. 50 ohms. In small enough doses, it appears to work; but as the network grows, the little analog effect do have an impact. Lotsa little fiddly details about the physical layer are covered up by robust layer 2 and layer 3 protocols. Without expensive sniffer hardware (Time Domain Reflectometer, anyone?), a lot of this stuff gets swept under the rug until you are having fits when it doesn't work. -ethan > (ISTR that you can use the > unused pair in the cable for LocalTalk, but I haven't yet tried it). Should be able to. __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Make a great connection at Yahoo! Personals. http://personals.yahoo.com From erd_6502 at yahoo.com Mon Oct 15 13:29:38 2001 From: erd_6502 at yahoo.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:43 2005 Subject: Dark Tower - any internals info out there? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20011015182938.56431.qmail@web20108.mail.yahoo.com> --- Chris wrote: > >Does anyone know if there is any info to be had about how the innards > >of games like Dark Tower function. I've never seen inside one but I > >presume there's a custom chip that's a microprocessor, RAM and ROM > >all rolled into one, for cost reasons. > > I think I still have mine, and in working condition. Although I would not > be willing to part with it (thus why I think I still have it), I CAN open > it and send some digital pics of the chips. Maybe even draw out some > schematics. That would be helpful. > I would guess that based on its age, there is nothing fancy in there. > Probably a simple eeprom or something for storing your stats, and > everything else was probably random gates (fighting, spinning, > whathaveyou). Eeprom? In 1982? What I expect is in there is a single custom chip (random gates are too expensive for a mass-market toy). What would be perfect would be the recorded ramblings of one of the designers more than anything else. As far as "emulation" goes, I would think you could just > write it from the ground up following the rules of the game. Although, it > wouldn't be a true emulation, it would make it playable But that's the whole point. I can write something, perhaps even in a toy language like Javascript, that would imitate the functions of the game and more or less play like the real thing, due to things like how the random number generator works, activities like searching tombs for treasure or haggling in the bazaar might or might not be close to the original. Imitation is easy. Emulation is harder. > (and you could do > it networked EASY... now THAT would be a cool internet based game!) That _would_ be fun. -ethan __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Make a great connection at Yahoo! Personals. http://personals.yahoo.com From erd_6502 at yahoo.com Mon Oct 15 13:32:27 2001 From: erd_6502 at yahoo.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:43 2005 Subject: OT: Dark Tower In-Reply-To: <20011012095138.B3092@eskimo.eskimo.com> Message-ID: <20011015183227.84855.qmail@web20103.mail.yahoo.com> --- Derek Peschel wrote: > On Fri, Oct 12, 2001 at 12:00:14PM -0400, Sean 'Captain Napalm' Conner > wrote: > > It was thus said that the Great Iggy Drougge once stated: > > > > > > Sean 'Captain Napalm' Conner skrev: > > > > > > > -spc (And my colocated server is called tower ... even though it's > > > > not in a tower case ... ) > > > > > > Then it must be an NCR, right? > > > > Yes, you are correct. > > > > Not many people get the joke though. > > Including me. Can you explain it? NCR had a line of multibus-based 68K-family UNIX machines called "NCR Towers" that were deeper and taller than today's full-sized towers and weighed about 3x as much (got a pair of 'em myself). I haven't opened mine in years, but ISTR there's a Multibus 68010 board, a couple of RAM boards and an ESDI controller with two full-sized 5.25" ESDI drives in the base. -ethan __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Make a great connection at Yahoo! Personals. http://personals.yahoo.com From Innfogra at aol.com Mon Oct 15 13:34:25 2001 From: Innfogra at aol.com (Innfogra@aol.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:43 2005 Subject: looking for documentation for 1963 minuteman missile computer Message-ID: <146.311bd68.28fc8631@aol.com> I have seen the boards out of one of the minutemen missile computers. IIRC they are very interesting Boards composed of discrete components. Anyone who has a full computer is very lucky. I would consider it to be an extremely rare collectable. The Boards that I saw were about 4"X6" and heavily plated in gold then lacquered. They are very pretty. I would love to see a whole computer. Paxton Astoria, OR -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20011015/385f6daa/attachment.html From rhblakeman at kih.net Mon Oct 15 13:41:11 2001 From: rhblakeman at kih.net (Russ Blakeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:43 2005 Subject: looking for documentation for 1963 minuteman missile computer In-Reply-To: Message-ID: That would be the Minuteman I if memory serves me. I know a few people that were operators and repair techs on that system but I'm not sure if I can still contact them. I will email you direct if I do contact them. I don't think it's too weird to have a nav-puter for the old gear, just as long as you don't have the reentry vehicle to go with it. -> -----Original Message----- -> From: owner-classiccmp@classiccmp.org -> [mailto:owner-classiccmp@classiccmp.org]On Behalf Of Gene Buckle -> Sent: Monday, October 15, 2001 12:59 PM -> To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org -> Subject: Re: looking for documentation for 1963 minuteman missile -> computer -> -> -> > I'm looking for documentation for a 1963 minuteman missile navigation -> > computer. Any leads would be appreciated. -> > -> *spits coffee on monitor* -> -> You're kidding, right? -> -> g. -> -> -> From erd_6502 at yahoo.com Mon Oct 15 13:42:11 2001 From: erd_6502 at yahoo.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:43 2005 Subject: OT: Dark Tower In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20011015184211.86343.qmail@web20103.mail.yahoo.com> --- Chris wrote: > > What exactly IS Dark Tower? > > Well, if the original poster was refering to what I had, then Dark Tower > is a board game (circa late 70's early 80's). The board was this roundish > board that you moved all over, and there was a dark brown plastic castle > thing that sat in the middle. Right. The focus of the game was this 15cm-long castle tower that you turned on its base so that only you could see the longish window on one side as you pressed buttons telling the microprocessor inside what you were doing for your move. As you did various things (while moving your plastic token around the board), there was a cylinder inside the tower that spun with three tiers of icons that lit up, one at a time, depending on what the output state was. Other players could get an idea of what you were up to by the bleeps and chirps, but not see the actual lit-up icon that told you how your turn was progressing. > The object was, you were an adventurer, and you had to move about getting > things (treasures?) from each land Keys, actually, one key from each territory that was _not_ the one you started in (your "own" country). With all three keys, you could assult the tower and try the keys in different orders until you got the right sequence (silver-gold-bronze, vs bronze-silver-gold, etc.). If you beat the brigands and punched in the right combination of keys first, you won. > (4 lands, 4 players IIRC). 2-4 players, always 4 lands ('cause you need three keys). > (and was out when D&D was in its hayday, something else I am afraid to > admit I was in to.). I think a large percentage of the list members who are between 25 and 50 were probably into D&D at one point (including me, starting at age 13). > Of course, maybe the original poster was refering to some other Dark > Tower game, and I now look like a total ass (but the one I know of was > really cool, so even if I just get to tell others about it, it was worth > the typing). You do not, in fact, look like a total ass. If anyone is the total ass, it's me for not providing enough info in my original request. I fell into the trap that "of course _everybody_ knows what I'm talking about because it's so obvious." I'd love to see pictures of the innards. There are sites with pictures of the game all set up for shots of the outside (and the board and the tokens, etc.) The best one is at... http://www.frenzy.com/~jaebear/games/darktower/ Thanks, -ethan __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Make a great connection at Yahoo! Personals. http://personals.yahoo.com From emu at ecubics.com Mon Oct 15 14:03:39 2001 From: emu at ecubics.com (emanuel stiebler) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:43 2005 Subject: looking for documentation for 1963 minuteman missile computer References: <146.311bd68.28fc8631@aol.com> Message-ID: <3BCB330B.201B57F5@ecubics.com> Innfogra@aol.com wrote: A Sh***ty html message ! > > Part 1.1 Type: Plain Text (text/plain) > Encoding: 7bit > I have seen the boards out of one of the minutemen missile computers. IIRC > they are very interesting Boards composed of discrete components. Anyone who > has a full computer is very lucky. I would consider it to be an extremely > rare collectable. Usually when they're coming your way, you're not thinking about collecting them ;-) From bbrown at harper.cc.il.us Mon Oct 15 14:10:32 2001 From: bbrown at harper.cc.il.us (Bob Brown) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:43 2005 Subject: HP-UX items In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Looks like enough for someone wanting to run hpux 10.20 on a server (not w/s) box to get started! -Bob >I have acquired some HP-UX 9000 series 700/800 >items that I have no clue about and no use for. > >1. Two identical manuals: "Installing HP-UX 10.10 and > Updating from HP-UX 10.0x to 10.10." > >2. Manual: "Support Media User's Manual > PA-RISC Computer Systems." > >3. CD-ROMs: "HP Instant Information CD > HP-UX Release 10." > June 1998 and April 1998. > >4. CD-ROM: "HP-UX Diagnostic/Independent Product > Release Media." > June 1998 > >5. CD-ROMs: "10.20 Hardware Extensions 2.0 > HP-UX 10.20 Servers" April 1998 > "HP-UX Extensions Software" April 1998 > >6. CD-ROM: "HP-UX Recovery Release 10.20" > >7. Four CD-ROMs: HP-UX Applications Release 10.20" > Disks 1 through 4. June 1998. > >Can anyone use these? > >Paul R. Santa-Maria >Monroe, Michigan USA bbrown@harper.cc.il.us #### #### Bob Brown - KB9LFR Harper Community College ## ## ## Systems Administrator Palatine IL USA #### #### Saved by grace From dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com Mon Oct 15 14:12:15 2001 From: dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com (Douglas Quebbeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:43 2005 Subject: looking for documentation for 1963 minuteman missile computer Message-ID: <7A9BACCEF0171D4FB77019F5104CDD372257DC@jeffserver.tegjeff.com> > > I'm looking for documentation for a 1963 minuteman missile navigation > > computer. Any leads would be appreciated. > > > *spits coffee on monitor* > > You're kidding, right? I saw one sold on E-Bay a year or so ago, there must be gobs of them in the surplus/salvage channels... Let's hope they're all bought up by domestic hobbyists... ;-) -dq From rhblakeman at kih.net Mon Oct 15 14:22:23 2001 From: rhblakeman at kih.net (Russ Blakeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:43 2005 Subject: Need info/manuals/software - Microtest 14 CD Dicport Tower Message-ID: Anyone have one of these in use and could possibly be a source for a copy of the manual, disks, etc? Just bought one on auction but of course no docs or software and this is NOT SCSI to the server, it works on the LAN and has SCSI drives in it. Even if someone can send me the manual so I can scan or copy it and send it back that would be great too and maybe I might have something excess here (besdies actual cash to pay the shipping and materials back) to express my thanks. Russ Blakeman Clarkson, KY USA -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20011015/4f0dc76b/attachment.html From mcguire at neurotica.com Mon Oct 15 14:31:38 2001 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:43 2005 Subject: Data storage and transmission (was Re: ArcNet) In-Reply-To: Re: Data storage and transmission (was Re: ArcNet) (Jan Koller) References: <20011015031419.NUAO1424.imf17bis.bellsouth.net@thegoodw> <3BCA6270.D8C9DA30@verizon.net> Message-ID: <15307.14746.591666.667702@phaduka.neurotica.com> On October 15, Jan Koller wrote: > > > How about MicroWave transmission ? > > > Or data encoded onto laser beams? > > > Or satellite bounced? > > Actually these three are probably something Dave McGuire > could actually do. While the rest of us have watches and > clocks, I heard through the grapevine he has his own fully > functional Atomic Clock. Uhh, yeah, I've done all three, but only the first two by myself. ;) -Dave -- Dave McGuire Laurel, MD From steven_j_robertson at hotmail.com Mon Oct 15 14:35:59 2001 From: steven_j_robertson at hotmail.com (Steve Robertson) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:43 2005 Subject: HP-UX items Message-ID: Everything except the CORE INSTALL. SteveRob >From: Bob Brown >Reply-To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org >To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org >Subject: Re: HP-UX items >Date: Mon, 15 Oct 2001 14:10:32 -0500 > >Looks like enough for someone wanting to run hpux 10.20 on a server (not >w/s) >box to get started! > >-Bob > _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp From rhblakeman at kih.net Mon Oct 15 14:43:04 2001 From: rhblakeman at kih.net (Russ Blakeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:43 2005 Subject: looking for documentation for 1963 minuteman missile computer In-Reply-To: <146.311bd68.28fc8631@aol.com> Message-ID: Most of the 60's to mid 70's era were lacquered, later ones were coated in a thin "sliastic" which is an elastic silicone coating in leiu of potting compound or laquering. Worked lots of AF equipment but I can't say that I've done more than just hold and look at any Minuteman equipment while I was a cruise missile instructor (next to the Minuteman and MX courses) at the now-closed Chanute AFB in Rantoul IL. -----Original Message----- From: owner-classiccmp@classiccmp.org [mailto:owner-classiccmp@classiccmp.org]On Behalf Of Innfogra@aol.com Sent: Monday, October 15, 2001 1:34 PM To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org Subject: Re: looking for documentation for 1963 minuteman missile computer I have seen the boards out of one of the minutemen missile computers. IIRC they are very interesting Boards composed of discrete components. Anyone who has a full computer is very lucky. I would consider it to be an extremely rare collectable. The Boards that I saw were about 4"X6" and heavily plated in gold then lacquered. They are very pretty. I would love to see a whole computer. Paxton Astoria, OR -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20011015/7761b603/attachment.html From erd_6502 at yahoo.com Mon Oct 15 14:45:41 2001 From: erd_6502 at yahoo.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:44 2005 Subject: ArcNet and the Pursuit of Multiple Topologies In-Reply-To: <20011015181810.67395.qmail@web20101.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20011015194541.67273.qmail@web20108.mail.yahoo.com> --- Ethan Dicks wrote: > 10BaseT can use CAT-3 or better. 16mbps Token Ring needs CAT-5 or > better. Errp... Token Thing wants CAT-4. Sorry for the typo. -ethan __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Make a great connection at Yahoo! Personals. http://personals.yahoo.com From mythtech at Mac.com Mon Oct 15 14:55:04 2001 From: mythtech at Mac.com (Chris) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:44 2005 Subject: Dark Tower - any internals info out there? Message-ID: >> I think I still have mine, and in working condition. Although I would not >> be willing to part with it (thus why I think I still have it), I CAN open >> it and send some digital pics of the chips. Maybe even draw out some >> schematics. > >That would be helpful. Ok, I will stop by my parents house tonight and pick mine up. Then tomorrow when I am supposed to be working (who wants to work when you can goof off), I will take it apart and take some pics. I will do what I can for schematics (I'm not an EE, just a hobbiest, so they might not be pretty, but I will try to make them correct). Although I am sure they will laugh hysterically, have you thought of contacting the game manufacturer? (Don't recall who it was, but I will know tonight when I pick mine up) -chris From pcw at mesanet.com Mon Oct 15 15:02:34 2001 From: pcw at mesanet.com (Peter C. Wallace) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:44 2005 Subject: looking for documentation for 1963 minuteman missile computer In-Reply-To: <200110151649.f9FGntN26300@mail.mcmsys.com> Message-ID: On Mon, 15 Oct 2001 jtinker@coin.org wrote: > I'm looking for documentation for a 1963 minuteman missile navigation > computer. Any leads would be appreciated. > > Thanks, > John Tinker > > > I have a little info if it's the D17B (1962) (from "Proceedings of the minuteman computer users group" Tulane Univ 1973) Type: Serial synchronous Number system: Fractional binary fixed point 2's complemant Logic levels: 0V = false, -10V = true Data word length: 11 or 24 (double precision) Instruction length: 24 bits Intructions: 39 Maximum I/O words/Second: 25600 Execution times: add ~78 uSec, multiply ~546 uSec, Double prec multiply ~1015 uSec Memory: 24 bits + 3 timing bits Type: Oxide coated disk cycle time ~78 uSec Capacity 5454 words 2727 double prec (24 bit). I/O: 43 digital lines, 31 pulse type, 12 analog (from 3 8 bit A-D) program I/O 800 5 bit c/s Size: 20" high x 29" diameter Power 28VDC +- 1V @ 17 A Circuits: DTL+DRL double copperclad gold plated glass fiber laminate with polyurethane conformal coat The newer D37C (1964) is mostly the same except has a larger disk and more instructions Peter Wallace Mesa Electronics From dpeschel at eskimo.com Mon Oct 15 15:20:45 2001 From: dpeschel at eskimo.com (Derek Peschel) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:44 2005 Subject: ArcNet and the Pursuit of Multiple Topologies In-Reply-To: <20011015181810.67395.qmail@web20101.mail.yahoo.com>; from erd_6502@yahoo.com on Mon, Oct 15, 2001 at 11:18:10AM -0700 References: <200110122046.NAA01163@ellie.ssl.berkeley.edu> <20011015181810.67395.qmail@web20101.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20011015132045.A24811@eskimo.eskimo.com> On Mon, Oct 15, 2001 at 11:18:10AM -0700, Ethan Dicks wrote: > 10BaseT can use CAT-3 or better. 16mbps Token Ring needs CAT-5 or > better. 100Base-TX needs CAT-5 (including CAT-5 jacks!) Don't recall > what 100Base-T4 needs (uses more than 2 pairs in the cable to lower the > required per-pair-bandwidth). Now I'm thinking that the "T" in "10BaseT", "100BaseT4", etc. and the T in the line capacities "T-1", "T-2", etc. are the same thing. Is that true? (No, you didn't mention the line capacities, but something clicked in my mind anyway.) And is there a "10BroadT"? :) -- Derek From rhblakeman at kih.net Mon Oct 15 15:24:07 2001 From: rhblakeman at kih.net (Russ Blakeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:44 2005 Subject: looking for documentation for 1963 minuteman missile computer In-Reply-To: <7A9BACCEF0171D4FB77019F5104CDD372257DC@jeffserver.tegjeff.com> Message-ID: It takes a little more than a nav computer to create a problem. All of the arming equipment that is reposnible for the "nuclear consent" is destroyed on-site, even trainer equipment. -> -----Original Message----- -> From: owner-classiccmp@classiccmp.org -> [mailto:owner-classiccmp@classiccmp.org]On Behalf Of Douglas Quebbeman -> Sent: Monday, October 15, 2001 2:12 PM -> To: 'classiccmp@classiccmp.org' -> Subject: RE: looking for documentation for 1963 minuteman missile -> computer -> -> -> > > I'm looking for documentation for a 1963 minuteman missile -> navigation -> > > computer. Any leads would be appreciated. -> > > -> > *spits coffee on monitor* -> > -> > You're kidding, right? -> -> I saw one sold on E-Bay a year or so ago, there must -> be gobs of them in the surplus/salvage channels... -> -> Let's hope they're all bought up by domestic hobbyists... -> -> ;-) -> -> -dq -> From mythtech at Mac.com Mon Oct 15 15:39:02 2001 From: mythtech at Mac.com (Chris) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:44 2005 Subject: IIgs using hard disk 20 Message-ID: Does anyone know if an Apple IIgs can use an old Macintosh Hard Disk 20. The Mac HD is NOT scsi, but rather uses the disk drive port on a Mac. It was designed to work with older non scsi macs (128k 512k), and could be daisy chained thru the disk drive ports (at one point, I think I had 3 HD 20s and a 400k drive connected to my 128k Mac). The IIgs has a disk drive port, and visually, the 3.5" drive I have for it looks just like the 3.5" drive I have off an old Mac Classic (I have to go off visual, as the one from the Classic has no labels or other markers beyond the apple logo... don't know why, that is the way it was when it was given to me). I was hoping maybe they used the same ports, and I might be able to use the HD 20 with my IIgs so I can add a hard drive to it. Anyone info would be great. -chris From pjschilling at gcstech.net Mon Oct 15 15:51:10 2001 From: pjschilling at gcstech.net (Phil Schilling) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:44 2005 Subject: HP-UX items In-Reply-To: Message-ID: I would be interested. Phil -----Original Message----- From: owner-classiccmp@classiccmp.org [mailto:owner-classiccmp@classiccmp.org]On Behalf Of Paul R. Santa-Maria Sent: Monday, October 15, 2001 12:58 PM To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org Subject: HP-UX items I have acquired some HP-UX 9000 series 700/800 items that I have no clue about and no use for. 1. Two identical manuals: "Installing HP-UX 10.10 and Updating from HP-UX 10.0x to 10.10." 2. Manual: "Support Media User's Manual PA-RISC Computer Systems." 3. CD-ROMs: "HP Instant Information CD HP-UX Release 10." June 1998 and April 1998. 4. CD-ROM: "HP-UX Diagnostic/Independent Product Release Media." June 1998 5. CD-ROMs: "10.20 Hardware Extensions 2.0 HP-UX 10.20 Servers" April 1998 "HP-UX Extensions Software" April 1998 6. CD-ROM: "HP-UX Recovery Release 10.20" 7. Four CD-ROMs: HP-UX Applications Release 10.20" Disks 1 through 4. June 1998. Can anyone use these? Paul R. Santa-Maria Monroe, Michigan USA From red at bears.org Mon Oct 15 15:48:37 2001 From: red at bears.org (r. 'bear' stricklin) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:44 2005 Subject: IIgs using hard disk 20 In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Mon, 15 Oct 2001, Chris wrote: > was designed to work with older non scsi macs (128k 512k), and could be > daisy chained thru the disk drive ports (at one point, I think I had 3 HD > 20s and a 400k drive connected to my 128k Mac). Are you SURE? I have an HD20 which works just fine on a Plus, but which I have NEVER been able to make work on a 128k. My 512k has video problems and I haven't had a chance to sort those out so I can test the HD20 on it. ok r. From lgwalker at mts.net Mon Oct 15 16:51:02 2001 From: lgwalker at mts.net (Lawrence Walker) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:44 2005 Subject: ArcNet and the Pursuit of Multiple Topologies In-Reply-To: <200110150400.RAA07281@s454.cosc.canterbury.ac.nz> References: <3BCA5532.8A1C44A1@verizon.net> Message-ID: <3BCB13F6.23252.2E6F33F@localhost> As a Canadian, I can only second that and offer my sympathy. The majority of U.S. citizens seem woefully ignorant of the affects around the world of U.S corporate and foreign policy. And no, I'm not anti the US people. My wife of many years was an US-American, as well as both my parents. I also lived in the US several years and have many old friends and relatives there. I've found them a warm and open people. Since I have a claim to dual-citizenship I could have lived there had I wished. I prefer my country and it's social policies, like you, I'm sure. I don't envy the US in the least. I just want to keep the things I love about Canada and not have it become even more a subsiduary of the US. N.Z. is more fortunate in that it isn't right next door to the beast and you don't have a "free" trade agreement. A measure of US regard is that most in the US don't consider the many peoples and countries in the Americas as "American". Sorry for the OT and I don't wish to offend my neighbors, but the US bafflement at foreign resentment gets to me at times. Now back to 'puters. Lawrence > > > > A citizen of NewZealandCorp, a wholly-owned subsidiary of USA Inc. > > > > I hope you don't mind my asking, but is the US in disfavor with > > the citizens of New Zealand? > > Not really. That comment isn't directed at the US, but at the > last few NZ governments, who seem to have been bent on privatising > all our public assets and selling them to big US companies. If > it goes on like that, you're going to own the whole country! > > Greg Ewing, Computer Science Dept, +--------------------------------------+ > University of Canterbury, | A citizen of NewZealandCorp, a | Christchurch, > New Zealand | wholly-owned subsidiary of USA Inc. | > greg@cosc.canterbury.ac.nz +--------------------------------------+ Reply to: lgwalker@mts.net From geneb at deltasoft.com Mon Oct 15 16:05:09 2001 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (Gene Buckle) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:44 2005 Subject: looking for documentation for 1963 minuteman missile computer In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Mon, 15 Oct 2001, Russ Blakeman wrote: > It takes a little more than a nav computer to create a problem. All of the > arming equipment that is reposnible for the "nuclear consent" is destroyed > on-site, even trainer equipment. > If you've got access to the warhead, all you need is a power supply, a capacitor bank and the desire to become component atoms. :) g. From rhblakeman at kih.net Mon Oct 15 16:08:23 2001 From: rhblakeman at kih.net (Russ Blakeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:44 2005 Subject: looking for documentation for 1963 minuteman missile computer In-Reply-To: Message-ID: That word should be "silastic" which stands for silicone, elastic. My fingers are from the Atlas missile days and they don't work too well either. -----Original Message----- From: owner-classiccmp@classiccmp.org [mailto:owner-classiccmp@classiccmp.org]On Behalf Of Russ Blakeman Sent: Monday, October 15, 2001 2:43 PM To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org Subject: RE: looking for documentation for 1963 minuteman missile computer Most of the 60's to mid 70's era were lacquered, later ones were coated in a thin "sliastic" -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20011015/d5b3352a/attachment.html From pete at dunnington.u-net.com Mon Oct 15 16:16:52 2001 From: pete at dunnington.u-net.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:44 2005 Subject: ArcNet and the Pursuit of Multiple Topologies In-Reply-To: Derek Peschel "Re: ArcNet and the Pursuit of Multiple Topologies" (Oct 15, 13:20) References: <200110122046.NAA01163@ellie.ssl.berkeley.edu> <20011015181810.67395.qmail@web20101.mail.yahoo.com> <20011015132045.A24811@eskimo.eskimo.com> Message-ID: <10110152216.ZM12725@mindy.dunnington.u-net.com> On Oct 15, 13:20, Derek Peschel wrote: > On Mon, Oct 15, 2001 at 11:18:10AM -0700, Ethan Dicks wrote: > > > 10BaseT can use CAT-3 or better. 16mbps Token Ring needs [...] > > Now I'm thinking that the "T" in "10BaseT", "100BaseT4", etc. and the T in > the line capacities "T-1", "T-2", etc. are the same thing. Is that true? Maybe. The 'T' in "10baseT" etc is the same 'T' as in "UTP" -- unshielded twisted pairs. I don't know what the 'T' in "T1" stands for. It might be the same as one in "AT&T" since they coined the term, or it might mean "twisted pair" because that's how T1 lines were originally made. T1, BTW, is 1.544Mb/s, and T3 is 44.736Mb/s; AFAIK there's no such thing as T2. A bit like ISDN; there's ISDN2, ISDN6, ISDN30, but no others. > And is there a "10BroadT"? :) Nope. -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager University of York From pete at dunnington.u-net.com Mon Oct 15 16:07:49 2001 From: pete at dunnington.u-net.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:44 2005 Subject: ArcNet and the Pursuit of Multiple Topologies In-Reply-To: Ethan Dicks "Re: ArcNet and the Pursuit of Multiple Topologies" (Oct 15, 11:18) References: <20011015181810.67395.qmail@web20101.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <10110152207.ZM12706@mindy.dunnington.u-net.com> On Oct 15, 11:18, Ethan Dicks wrote: > --- "Eric J. Korpela" wrote: > > Just wired the house with Cat-5 this week. 10bT has the advantage that > > it's also 100bT with a change of equipment. > > I know you probably know what you meant, but to me, that statement is > misleading, or rather, to someone who knows little about networking, > taking the second sentence out of context could lead trouble. > > phone wire - 2 pair or more, good for analog telephones > CAT-3 - will pass 10mbps traffic (or analog telephone traffic) > CAT-4 - good for token ring > CAT-5 - good for most inexpensive networking technologies > CAT-5e - needed for transmission technologies that put > 100mbps on > a single pair. > > 10BaseT can use CAT-3 or better. 16mbps Token Ring needs CAT-5 or > better. 100Base-TX needs CAT-5 (including CAT-5 jacks!) Don't recall > what 100Base-T4 needs Cat3 > Lotsa little fiddly details about the physical layer are covered up by > robust layer 2 and layer 3 protocols. Without expensive sniffer hardware > (Time Domain Reflectometer, anyone?), a lot of this stuff gets swept under > the rug until you are having fits when it doesn't work. I couldn't agree more. Don't try to build a whole network (or long runs) with stranded patch cord, for example. > > (ISTR that you can use the > > unused pair in the cable for LocalTalk, but I haven't yet tried it). > > Should be able to. Just not at the same time as you're running 100baseTX up the same cable :-) -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager University of York From optimus at canit.se Mon Oct 15 17:26:16 2001 From: optimus at canit.se (Iggy Drougge) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:44 2005 Subject: Data storage and transmission (was Re: ArcNet) In-Reply-To: <15307.14746.591666.667702@phaduka.neurotica.com> Message-ID: <769.688T800T14063933optimus@canit.se> Dave McGuire skrev: >On October 15, Jan Koller wrote: >> > > How about MicroWave transmission ? >> > > Or data encoded onto laser beams? >> > > Or satellite bounced? >> >> Actually these three are probably something Dave McGuire >> could actually do. While the rest of us have watches and >> clocks, I heard through the grapevine he has his own fully >> functional Atomic Clock. > Uhh, yeah, I've done all three, but only the first two by myself. ;) In an old Computer Club programme on German TV from the 80s, they actually built a laser. I think an Apple II was involved in the process as well. I wish they'd run more reruns of that programme. -- En ligne avec Thor 2.6a. "I may have invented Ctrl-Alt-Del, but Microsoft made it popular." --David Bradley From optimus at canit.se Mon Oct 15 17:19:51 2001 From: optimus at canit.se (Iggy Drougge) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:44 2005 Subject: OT: Dark Tower In-Reply-To: <20011015183227.84855.qmail@web20103.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <685.688T2550T13996371optimus@canit.se> Ethan Dicks skrev: >NCR had a line of multibus-based 68K-family UNIX machines called "NCR >Towers" that were deeper and taller than today's full-sized towers >and weighed about 3x as much (got a pair of 'em myself). I haven't >opened mine in years, but ISTR there's a Multibus 68010 board, >a couple of RAM boards and an ESDI controller with two full-sized >5.25" ESDI drives in the base. ISTR reading that very early SUNs used Multibus, too. What kind of bus was that? What did it look like, and what other platforms used it? It seems to have been quite popular at some time. -- En ligne avec Thor 2.6a. Amiga 4000/040 25MHz/64MB/20GB RetinaBLTZ3/VLab/FastlaneZ3/Ariadne/Toccata From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Oct 15 16:03:12 2001 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:44 2005 Subject: Unknown IC In-Reply-To: <836.688T700T2514101optimus@canit.se> from "Iggy Drougge" at Oct 15, 1 04:11:14 am Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 580 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20011015/2539c238/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Oct 15 16:18:40 2001 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:44 2005 Subject: Dark Tower - any internals info out there? In-Reply-To: <20011015182938.56431.qmail@web20108.mail.yahoo.com> from "Ethan Dicks" at Oct 15, 1 11:29:38 am Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 678 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20011015/6e963005/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Oct 15 16:34:37 2001 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:44 2005 Subject: looking for documentation for 1963 minuteman missile computer In-Reply-To: <3BCB330B.201B57F5@ecubics.com> from "emanuel stiebler" at Oct 15, 1 01:03:39 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 476 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20011015/6f40f127/attachment.ksh From mcguire at neurotica.com Mon Oct 15 16:50:24 2001 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:44 2005 Subject: Unknown IC In-Reply-To: Re: Unknown IC (Tony Duell) References: <836.688T700T2514101optimus@canit.se> Message-ID: <15307.23072.365967.464842@phaduka.neurotica.com> On October 15, Tony Duell wrote: > > > Ahh, the 74LS181s are ALUs, as is the 'F582. Interesting that they > > >used both. I'm curious...what kind of processor is this? > > > > Am I the only one who finds it a bit perverse that there are 74xxx standa= > > rd > > TTL circuits for such complex functions as ALUs? I thought that the way t= > > Actually, what suprises me is how _simple_ the 74181 gate schematic is > (it's published in most TTL databooks). It doesn't take that long to > understand how it works. > > In terms of the transistor count, I suspect there are TTL chips which are > more complex than the '181. The '181 is even used in the pdp11/04 and /34 if memory serves. Anyone know of any others? -Dave -- Dave McGuire Laurel, MD From donm at cts.com Mon Oct 15 17:00:53 2001 From: donm at cts.com (Don Maslin) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:44 2005 Subject: OT - was Re: ArcNet and the Pursuit of Multiple Topologies In-Reply-To: <3BCB13F6.23252.2E6F33F@localhost> Message-ID: It is not my wish to extend an OT thread, but I would like to point that it is a multi-way street. At the same time that US companies are purchasing companies in NZ, CA, and others, AU, UK, DE, and others are purchasing companies in the US in such industries as Newspapers and TV, petroleum products, automobile manufacturing, etc. I do not know how it balances out in $$$, but there are big bucks going every way. - don On Mon, 15 Oct 2001, Lawrence Walker wrote: > As a Canadian, I can only second that and offer my sympathy. The majority > of U.S. citizens seem woefully ignorant of the affects around the world of > U.S corporate and foreign policy. And no, I'm not anti the US people. My > wife of many years was an US-American, as well as both my parents. I also > lived in the US several years and have many old friends and relatives there. > I've found them a warm and open people. > Since I have a claim to dual-citizenship I could have lived there had I wished. > I prefer my country and it's social policies, like you, I'm sure. I don't envy the > US in the least. I just want to keep the things I love about Canada and not > have it become even more a subsiduary of the US. > N.Z. is more fortunate in that it isn't right next door to the beast and you > don't have a "free" trade agreement. A measure of US regard is that most in > the US don't consider the many peoples and countries in the Americas as > "American". > Sorry for the OT and I don't wish to offend my neighbors, but the US > bafflement at foreign resentment gets to me at times. > Now back to 'puters. > > Lawrence > > > > > > > A citizen of NewZealandCorp, a wholly-owned subsidiary of USA Inc. > > > > > > I hope you don't mind my asking, but is the US in disfavor with > > > the citizens of New Zealand? > > > > Not really. That comment isn't directed at the US, but at the > > last few NZ governments, who seem to have been bent on privatising > > all our public assets and selling them to big US companies. If > > it goes on like that, you're going to own the whole country! > > > > Greg Ewing, Computer Science Dept, +--------------------------------------+ > > University of Canterbury, | A citizen of NewZealandCorp, a | Christchurch, > > New Zealand | wholly-owned subsidiary of USA Inc. | > > greg@cosc.canterbury.ac.nz +--------------------------------------+ > > > > Reply to: > lgwalker@mts.net > From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Oct 15 17:03:07 2001 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:44 2005 Subject: Unknown IC In-Reply-To: <15307.23072.365967.464842@phaduka.neurotica.com> from "Dave McGuire" at Oct 15, 1 05:50:24 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 462 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20011015/37deea55/attachment.ksh From louiss at gate.net Mon Oct 15 17:17:56 2001 From: louiss at gate.net (Louis Schulman) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:44 2005 Subject: IIgs using hard disk 20 In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <200110152217.SAA17081@hall.mail.mindspring.net> Won't work, simply because the floppy port on the GS doesn't have the firmware to support the HD20, while the early Macs did. But there are many better hard drive options for a GS, anyway. Louis On Mon, 15 Oct 2001 16:39:02 -0400, Chris wrote: #Does anyone know if an Apple IIgs can use an old Macintosh Hard Disk 20. #The Mac HD is NOT scsi, but rather uses the disk drive port on a Mac. It #was designed to work with older non scsi macs (128k 512k), and could be #daisy chained thru the disk drive ports (at one point, I think I had 3 HD #20s and a 400k drive connected to my 128k Mac). # #The IIgs has a disk drive port, and visually, the 3.5" drive I have for #it looks just like the 3.5" drive I have off an old Mac Classic (I have #to go off visual, as the one from the Classic has no labels or other #markers beyond the apple logo... don't know why, that is the way it was #when it was given to me). # #I was hoping maybe they used the same ports, and I might be able to use #the HD 20 with my IIgs so I can add a hard drive to it. # #Anyone info would be great. # # # #-chris # # # From rhblakeman at kih.net Mon Oct 15 17:22:58 2001 From: rhblakeman at kih.net (Russ Blakeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:44 2005 Subject: looking for documentation for 1963 minuteman missile computer In-Reply-To: Message-ID: And that's the key words - access to the warhead (by yourself) which is why the "no lone zone/two man policy" (well now it's two person policy) has been around since back around the advent of the Hiroshima/Nagasaki detonations. There are other ways to do it as well but I think I'll keep that to myself. -> -----Original Message----- -> From: owner-classiccmp@classiccmp.org -> [mailto:owner-classiccmp@classiccmp.org]On Behalf Of Gene Buckle -> Sent: Monday, October 15, 2001 4:05 PM -> To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org -> Subject: RE: looking for documentation for 1963 minuteman missile -> computer -> -> -> -> -> On Mon, 15 Oct 2001, Russ Blakeman wrote: -> -> > It takes a little more than a nav computer to create a -> problem. All of the -> > arming equipment that is reposnible for the "nuclear consent" -> is destroyed -> > on-site, even trainer equipment. -> > -> If you've got access to the warhead, all you need is a power supply, a -> capacitor bank and the desire to become component atoms. :) -> -> g. -> -> -> -> From vze2mnvr at verizon.net Mon Oct 15 17:29:23 2001 From: vze2mnvr at verizon.net (Ian Koller) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:44 2005 Subject: ArcNet and the Pursuit of Multiple Topologies References: <200110150400.RAA07281@s454.cosc.canterbury.ac.nz> Message-ID: <3BCB6343.559AC5FB@verizon.net> Hello Greg, We, the people of the US, are at the mercy of these same companies. And they are not all US companies. There are some that are European and Japanese based? I might be wrong, because I'm not going to look it up at this time, but Phillips, Gillette, Shell, Daimler Benz, etc? I submit that these companies are not even the companies of one single nation anymore, but multi-nationals that owe their allegiance not to one nation, but primarily to themselves, whose power and influence extends globally. Have you any idea how much of Waikiki property is owned by the Japanese? Greg Ewing wrote: > > Jan Koller : > > > Ahhhh, What are Chinese whispers? > > It's a game where you set up a chain of people, and > whisper some message in the ear of the first one, who > whispers it to the next one, etc. When it gets to the > far end you compare it with the original message, > usually with amusing results due to accumulation of > errors along the way. > > > > A citizen of NewZealandCorp, a wholly-owned subsidiary of USA Inc. > > > > I hope you don't mind my asking, but is the US in disfavor with > > the citizens of New Zealand? > > Not really. That comment isn't directed at the US, but at the > last few NZ governments, who seem to have been bent on privatising > all our public assets and selling them to big US companies. If > it goes on like that, you're going to own the whole country! > > Greg Ewing, Computer Science Dept, +--------------------------------------+ > University of Canterbury, | A citizen of NewZealandCorp, a | > Christchurch, New Zealand | wholly-owned subsidiary of USA Inc. | > greg@cosc.canterbury.ac.nz +--------------------------------------+ From vze2mnvr at verizon.net Mon Oct 15 17:45:26 2001 From: vze2mnvr at verizon.net (Ian Koller) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:44 2005 Subject: ArcNet and the Pursuit of Multiple Topologies References: <3BCA5532.8A1C44A1@verizon.net> <3BCB13F6.23252.2E6F33F@localhost> Message-ID: <3BCB6706.9B850825@verizon.net> Hello Lawrence, It had seemed to me that the Canadian government did more to look after the welfare of it's citizens than does the US government for theirs, though to fund doing so, results in higher tax percentages for you. The free trade agreement really doesn't help the common man. It helps the big corporations primarily exploit the cheap labor of Mexico. I'm pretty sure NAFTA put more than one American out of work too. We common people can be baffled at foreign resentment, because, in regards to these policies that the citizens of other countries resent, we common people were never consulted, and usually probably never even informed of. Again, it's the multi-national corporations and their big money that have done much of this, and without ever asking our permission or approval. Lawrence Walker wrote: > > As a Canadian, I can only second that and offer my sympathy. The majority > of U.S. citizens seem woefully ignorant of the affects around the world of > U.S corporate and foreign policy. And no, I'm not anti the US people. My > wife of many years was an US-American, as well as both my parents. I also > lived in the US several years and have many old friends and relatives there. > I've found them a warm and open people. > Since I have a claim to dual-citizenship I could have lived there had I wished. > I prefer my country and it's social policies, like you, I'm sure. I don't envy the > US in the least. I just want to keep the things I love about Canada and not > have it become even more a subsiduary of the US. > N.Z. is more fortunate in that it isn't right next door to the beast and you > don't have a "free" trade agreement. A measure of US regard is that most in > the US don't consider the many peoples and countries in the Americas as > "American". > Sorry for the OT and I don't wish to offend my neighbors, but the US > bafflement at foreign resentment gets to me at times. > Now back to 'puters. > > Lawrence > > > > > > > A citizen of NewZealandCorp, a wholly-owned subsidiary of USA Inc. > > > > > > I hope you don't mind my asking, but is the US in disfavor with > > > the citizens of New Zealand? > > > > Not really. That comment isn't directed at the US, but at the > > last few NZ governments, who seem to have been bent on privatising > > all our public assets and selling them to big US companies. If > > it goes on like that, you're going to own the whole country! > > > > Greg Ewing, Computer Science Dept, +--------------------------------------+ > > University of Canterbury, | A citizen of NewZealandCorp, a | Christchurch, > > New Zealand | wholly-owned subsidiary of USA Inc. | > > greg@cosc.canterbury.ac.nz +--------------------------------------+ > > Reply to: > lgwalker@mts.net From mhstein at usa.net Mon Oct 15 17:48:56 2001 From: mhstein at usa.net (M H Stein) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:44 2005 Subject: Burroughs E6000 Message-ID: <01C155AA.898FF9C0@mse-d03> Ah, yes, remember them well, and the mechanical B series they replaced; might even still have some parts and ledger cards... Those were the days, programming with metal punches and tweaking and debugging with a file... made great desks when they were scrapped... But while on this topic, anybody out there doing anything with Burroughs L series or B80/90 systems? Have tossed most of it out, but still have some cards, manuals and a cassette drive with controller if anyone's at all interested. And of course some paper and mylar tape stuff... And some Burroughs calculator manuals, mechanical and electronic.. mike ---------------------------- Date: Sat, 13 Oct 2001 17:29:07 -0500 From: "Patrick L. Boland" Subject: Re: Burroughs E6000 As late as 1977 ! was using two Burroughs E6000 computers to perform the function of loan payment application. The loans were for health club membership in the Chicago area and a great deal of the rest of the upper midwest area. We had over 50,000 loans outstanding at any time and processed from 1,000 to 3,000 loan payments a day. The machines we had were magnetic stripe ledger card readers and they would punch an output card with the results of the processing of the transaction. The latest information about the loan kept on a master deck of cards was replaced with the card that was punched as a result of the transaction on the E6000. The update was performed on a daily basis using the 085 sorter and a reproducer/collater. During the last 8 to 12 months of the use of the E6000, while a conversion was being worked on, we used only one E6000 and kept the other one for spare parts. Burroughs had run out of spare parts. From mhstein at usa.net Mon Oct 15 17:39:38 2001 From: mhstein at usa.net (M H Stein) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:44 2005 Subject: Cromemco Pick-up on 10-13-01 Message-ID: <01C155AA.85B334C0@mse-d03> John, Gee, just dumpstered 3 System 3's and 2 CS100's; since we're now shipping all our Toronto garbage to Michigan, ya coulda stopped at the dump on your way back & picked them up as well :-) However, although the rest of the chassis (2xCS420, 2xCS300, 1xCS2H, 3xCS1H, 1xSystem3, 1xZ2, BRZII, C5 etc., and nice and clean at that), will probably have to go as well 'cause nobody wants to come up here to the frozen north, the cards, manuals & software may be around a little longer, so let me know if ya need anything. mike ---------------------- Date: Sun, 14 Oct 2001 18:54:05 -0500 From: "John R. Keys Jr." Subject: Cromemco Pick-up on 10-13-01 This pass Saturday was a long drive MN to IL (12 hours total drive time) to pick up 2- Cromemco System Three's, a Systemv CS-300, one new in the box KB for these systems, lots of manuals and software for them, a Cipher 1600BPI tape unit, a model BRZ-III fan for the units, and some parts. All will have to be cleaned up as they are pretty dirty and need some loving care. The guy had over 1600sq feet of computer stuff he is selling most on eBay.:-( At a local thrift I got some Sega master stuff, like the 3D glasses that have been selling on eBay for $50, I got mine for a couple dollars. Got a Virtual Boy system for $11.99. Got some Atari 2600 stuff also they were selling cartridges for 80 cents and they had two big boxes full. Now I will start the clean-up and entering all the info into the database (my paper notebooks). Keep computing John From bigfish at bluefrognet.net Mon Oct 15 17:47:11 2001 From: bigfish at bluefrognet.net (bigfish@bluefrognet.net) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:44 2005 Subject: Rescue / Sale in AZ: PET, Tandy, Apple, PC Message-ID: <3BCB676F.4A47E645@bluefrognet.net> I am interested in the 3m thermofaxes. are they still avail? I will contribute$$$$$$$. please advise, Gordon Link From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Mon Oct 15 17:39:14 2001 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (ajp166) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:44 2005 Subject: Unknown IC Message-ID: <00ac01c155cc$9a9e4ec0$04ed9a8d@ajp166> It also appears in the LQ02 printer logic and the RX01 disk ucontroller. It was a popular TTL 4bit ALU slice. Allison -----Original Message----- From: Dave McGuire To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org Date: Monday, October 15, 2001 6:16 PM Subject: Re: Unknown IC >On October 15, Tony Duell wrote: >> > > Ahh, the 74LS181s are ALUs, as is the 'F582. Interesting that they >> > >used both. I'm curious...what kind of processor is this? >> > >> > Am I the only one who finds it a bit perverse that there are 74xxx standa= >> > rd >> > TTL circuits for such complex functions as ALUs? I thought that the way t= >> >> Actually, what suprises me is how _simple_ the 74181 gate schematic is >> (it's published in most TTL databooks). It doesn't take that long to >> understand how it works. >> >> In terms of the transistor count, I suspect there are TTL chips which are >> more complex than the '181. > > The '181 is even used in the pdp11/04 and /34 if memory serves. >Anyone know of any others? > > -Dave > >-- >Dave McGuire >Laurel, MD From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Mon Oct 15 17:44:40 2001 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (ajp166) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:44 2005 Subject: looking for documentation for 1963 minuteman missile computer Message-ID: <00ad01c155cc$bc026f10$04ed9a8d@ajp166> Why not. they were demil'ed and made available to colleges and any one else that could deal with the 30someodd inches diameter by 20 inches tall "slice". It wanted three voltages and one whole whopping amount of power. PITA to cool as well. I'ts been 30 years since i've seen/played with one. Allison -----Original Message----- From: Gene Buckle To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org Date: Monday, October 15, 2001 2:26 PM Subject: Re: looking for documentation for 1963 minuteman missile computer >> I'm looking for documentation for a 1963 minuteman missile navigation >> computer. Any leads would be appreciated. >> >*spits coffee on monitor* > >You're kidding, right? > >g. > > > From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Mon Oct 15 17:47:42 2001 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (ajp166) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:44 2005 Subject: Unknown IC Message-ID: <00ae01c155cc$dd64e1b0$04ed9a8d@ajp166> From: Iggy Drougge >> Ahh, the 74LS181s are ALUs, as is the 'F582. Interesting that they >>used both. I'm curious...what kind of processor is this? > >Am I the only one who finds it a bit perverse that there are 74xxx standard >TTL circuits for such complex functions as ALUs? I thought that the way to go >would be to construct it out of simpler TTL circuits, such as all the 740x >gates, not buying it as a package. I suppose I'm not used to the concept of >single 74xxx circuits carrying out such complex tasks. It was the second generation before really complex LSI actually the '181 was likely the highest gate count part in the class before the TI bit slices (74881-884). It's also very old but still a handy part as it does all the standard arithmetic ops and logical ones too. The ALU core of the 2901 is basically the 74181. Allison From geneb at deltasoft.com Mon Oct 15 18:10:36 2001 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (Gene Buckle) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:44 2005 Subject: looking for documentation for 1963 minuteman missile computer In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Mon, 15 Oct 2001, Russ Blakeman wrote: > And that's the key words - access to the warhead (by yourself) which is why > the "no lone zone/two man policy" (well now it's two person policy) has been > around since back around the advent of the Hiroshima/Nagasaki detonations. > There are other ways to do it as well but I think I'll keep that to myself. > What's scary to me is that if you can get a core (presumably from some former soviet source), it's basically trivial to get even a partial yield. g. From mythtech at Mac.com Mon Oct 15 18:07:35 2001 From: mythtech at Mac.com (Chris) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:44 2005 Subject: IIgs using hard disk 20 Message-ID: >> was designed to work with older non scsi macs (128k 512k), and could be >> daisy chained thru the disk drive ports > >Are you SURE? I have an HD20 which works just fine on a Plus, but which I >have NEVER been able to make work on a 128k. My 512k has video problems >and I haven't had a chance to sort those out so I can test the HD20 on it. I was almost 100% positive that I once had it working on a 128k, but a search of apple's TIL shows that the HD20 works with the 512ke, Plus, SE, Classic, IIci, and Portable... so I guess I never took it lower than my Plus (I never owned either of the 512's). This is going to be a head scratcher for me for some time... I distinctly remember hooking it up to my 128. (I can picture sitting in front of the table working on it... I guess I must have failed in my attempts, but I could have sworn I was successful) -chris From mythtech at Mac.com Mon Oct 15 18:12:43 2001 From: mythtech at Mac.com (Chris) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:44 2005 Subject: IIgs using hard disk 20 Message-ID: >Won't work, simply because the floppy port on the GS doesn't have the >firmware to support the HD20, while >the early Macs did. But there are many better hard drive options for a >GS, anyway. I guess I will have to keep an eye out for a SCSI board for the IIgs. Maybe I can also track down an original Apple HD SC... just to keep everything matching. So much for using parts on hand -chris From mythtech at Mac.com Mon Oct 15 18:23:01 2001 From: mythtech at Mac.com (Chris) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:44 2005 Subject: IIgs using hard disk 20 Message-ID: >Are you SURE? I have an HD20 which works just fine on a Plus, but which I >have NEVER been able to make work on a 128k. My 512k has video problems >and I haven't had a chance to sort those out so I can test the HD20 on it. Not to double reply... but now I am going to start beating my head into a wall. Apple's technote article # 8169 (in the archives section), claims that the only way to add a hard drive to the 128 and 512 is by using the HD20 non-scsi drive (the one in question here). This seems to contridict a previous technote that lists the first supporting mac as the 512ke. So now I am REALLY going to have to pull out my 128 and see what happens... it seems Apple doesn't even know which way it goes. -chris From bpope at wordstock.com Mon Oct 15 18:28:34 2001 From: bpope at wordstock.com (Bryan Pope) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:44 2005 Subject: Rescue / Sale in AZ: PET, Tandy, Apple, PC In-Reply-To: <3BCB676F.4A47E645@bluefrognet.net> from "bigfish@bluefrognet.net" at Oct 15, 01 06:47:11 pm Message-ID: <200110152328.TAA32178@wordstock.com> > > I am interested in the 3m thermofaxes. are they still avail? > I will contribute$$$$$$$. > > please advise, > Gordon Link > Hey! What happened to the original post of this message?! Bryan From cpg at aladdin.de Mon Oct 15 18:30:21 2001 From: cpg at aladdin.de (Christian Groessler) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:44 2005 Subject: CP/M-8000 Message-ID: <878zec8os2.fsf@gibbon.cnet.aladdin.de> Hi, I've got a Olivetti M20 Z8001 PC, and it appears that once there was a CP/M-8000 version available for it. Has anyone got such thing? I'd be interested in this, I could swap with some PCOS programs. (Assuming the copyright holder (Olivetti) doesn't mind.) regards, chris From edick at idcomm.com Mon Oct 15 18:45:21 2001 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:44 2005 Subject: IIgs using hard disk 20 References: Message-ID: <001101c155d3$74431ba0$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> I think I've got an old Hard Disk 20 and it's a SCSI device. I'll have to find the lid to see what it says on it, though. It seems to me that it's an old MFM drive with a customed up SCSI bridge adapter on it. Dick ----- Original Message ----- From: "Chris" To: "Classic Computer" Sent: Monday, October 15, 2001 2:39 PM Subject: IIgs using hard disk 20 > Does anyone know if an Apple IIgs can use an old Macintosh Hard Disk 20. > The Mac HD is NOT scsi, but rather uses the disk drive port on a Mac. It > was designed to work with older non scsi macs (128k 512k), and could be > daisy chained thru the disk drive ports (at one point, I think I had 3 HD > 20s and a 400k drive connected to my 128k Mac). > > The IIgs has a disk drive port, and visually, the 3.5" drive I have for > it looks just like the 3.5" drive I have off an old Mac Classic (I have > to go off visual, as the one from the Classic has no labels or other > markers beyond the apple logo... don't know why, that is the way it was > when it was given to me). > > I was hoping maybe they used the same ports, and I might be able to use > the HD 20 with my IIgs so I can add a hard drive to it. > > Anyone info would be great. > > > > -chris > > > > From mikeford at socal.rr.com Mon Oct 15 18:23:54 2001 From: mikeford at socal.rr.com (Mike Ford) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:44 2005 Subject: Need info/manuals/software - Microtest 14 CD Dicport Tower In-Reply-To: Message-ID: > Anyone have one of these in use and could possibly be a source for a >copy of the manual, disks, etc? Just bought one on auction but of course >no docs or software and this is NOT SCSI to the server, it works on the >LAN and has SCSI drives in it. Even if someone can send me the manual so >I can scan or copy it and send it back that would be great too and maybe >I might have something excess here (besdies actual cash to pay the >shipping and materials back) to express my thanks. Russ Blakeman >Clarkson, KY USA I bought a MicroTest Discport at the last TRW, mine is just the put a CD ROM on the net box, but when I hunted I thought I found MicroTest was still around. OTOH I don't seem to have any software, so maybe they don't support it anymore ? If you find something let me know too. From mikeford at socal.rr.com Mon Oct 15 18:32:43 2001 From: mikeford at socal.rr.com (Mike Ford) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:44 2005 Subject: Dark Tower - any internals info out there? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Here is a good starting point. http://www.jeffrey.henning.com/lnk/drktwr.htm snip from the site.... (something of a start on a emulator) Dark Tower Links One of my favorite games of all time is Dark Tower, by Milton Bradley. This was the first electronic board game and was released in 1981, when I was but a lad of 13. I played it constantly and thought it was even better than Dungeons & Dragons. It is a well-designed multiplayer game with an innovative interface. You can get a complete description here, or you can get a short overview of the rules. From optimus at canit.se Mon Oct 15 19:39:49 2001 From: optimus at canit.se (Iggy Drougge) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:44 2005 Subject: TO8 soundchip Message-ID: <73.689T2450T995871optimus@canit.se> What was the sound chip in the Thomson TO8? -- En ligne avec Thor 2.6a. From at258 at osfn.org Mon Oct 15 18:57:44 2001 From: at258 at osfn.org (Merle K. Peirce) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:44 2005 Subject: Burroughs E6000 In-Reply-To: <01C155AA.898FF9C0@mse-d03> Message-ID: We have a B80 and would appreciate anything you might want todonate. On Mon, 15 Oct 2001, M H Stein wrote: > Ah, yes, remember them well, and the mechanical B series they replaced; might even still have some parts and ledger cards... Those were the days, programming with metal punches and tweaking and debugging with a file... made great desks when they were scrapped... > > But while on this topic, anybody out there doing anything with Burroughs L series or B80/90 systems? Have tossed most of it out, but still have some cards, manuals and a cassette drive with controller if anyone's at all interested. > > And of course some paper and mylar tape stuff... > > And some Burroughs calculator manuals, mechanical and electronic.. > > mike > > ---------------------------- > > Date: Sat, 13 Oct 2001 17:29:07 -0500 > From: "Patrick L. Boland" > Subject: Re: Burroughs E6000 > > As late as 1977 ! was using two Burroughs E6000 computers to perform the > function of loan payment application. The loans were for health club > membership in the Chicago area and a great deal of the rest of the upper > midwest area. We had over 50,000 loans outstanding at any time and > processed from 1,000 to 3,000 loan payments a day. The machines we had were > magnetic stripe ledger card readers and they would punch an output card > with the results of the processing of the transaction. The latest > information about the loan kept on a master deck of cards was replaced with > the card that was punched as a result of the transaction on the E6000. The > update was performed on a daily basis using the 085 sorter and a > reproducer/collater. During the last 8 to 12 months of the use of the > E6000, while a conversion was being worked on, we used only one E6000 and > kept the other one for spare parts. Burroughs had run out of spare parts. > > > M. K. Peirce Rhode Island Computer Museum, Inc. Shady Lea, Rhode Island "Casta est quam nemo rogavit." - Ovid From jismay at agamemnon.unixboxen.net Mon Oct 15 19:00:11 2001 From: jismay at agamemnon.unixboxen.net (J Brian Ismay) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:44 2005 Subject: SCSI Info requested by David Woyciesjes Message-ID: <20011015170011.A260@unixboxen.net> I have mirrored the three scsi documents to my own site. I will keep them up and available for the forseeable future. http://agamemnon.unixboxen.net/scsi -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 232 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20011015/7bafc5ae/attachment.bin From healyzh at aracnet.com Mon Oct 15 19:16:34 2001 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:44 2005 Subject: IIgs using hard disk 20 In-Reply-To: from "Richard Erlacher" at Oct 15, 2001 05:45:21 PM Message-ID: <200110160016.f9G0GYV07719@shell1.aracnet.com> I don't think the one that he's talking about is SCSI, it plugs directly into the floppy port on a Mac 128k or Mac 512K. ISTR, using one on a newer Mac Plus instead of a SCSI drive as I needed something of that formfactor and that was all I could get my hands on at the time. Based on how it's used, I'm guessing you're right about it being a MFM drive, but I suspect it's some wierd sort of bridge in it. Zane > I think I've got an old Hard Disk 20 and it's a SCSI device. I'll have to find > the lid to see what it says on it, though. It seems to me that it's an old MFM > drive with a customed up SCSI bridge adapter on it. > > Dick > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Chris" > To: "Classic Computer" > Sent: Monday, October 15, 2001 2:39 PM > Subject: IIgs using hard disk 20 > > > > Does anyone know if an Apple IIgs can use an old Macintosh Hard Disk 20. > > The Mac HD is NOT scsi, but rather uses the disk drive port on a Mac. It > > was designed to work with older non scsi macs (128k 512k), and could be > > daisy chained thru the disk drive ports (at one point, I think I had 3 HD > > 20s and a 400k drive connected to my 128k Mac). > > > > The IIgs has a disk drive port, and visually, the 3.5" drive I have for > > it looks just like the 3.5" drive I have off an old Mac Classic (I have > > to go off visual, as the one from the Classic has no labels or other > > markers beyond the apple logo... don't know why, that is the way it was > > when it was given to me). > > > > I was hoping maybe they used the same ports, and I might be able to use > > the HD 20 with my IIgs so I can add a hard drive to it. > > > > Anyone info would be great. > > > > > > > > -chris > > > > > > > > > From sieler at allegro.com Mon Oct 15 19:17:48 2001 From: sieler at allegro.com (Stan Sieler) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:44 2005 Subject: Burroughs E6000 In-Reply-To: <01C155AA.898FF9C0@mse-d03> Message-ID: <3BCB1A3C.9896.14E2F09D@localhost> Re: > But while on this topic, anybody out there doing anything with Burroughs L series or B80/90 systems? > Have tossed most of it out, but still have some cards, manuals and a cassette > drive with controller if anyone's at all interested. (manually edited due to longgggggggggggg line :) I was part of a group that helped obtain and move a working Burroughs L9000 from the office it was used in to the Computer Museum History Center last year. Photos at: http://www.sieler.com/l9000/ Stan Sieler sieler@allegro.com www.allegro.com/sieler/wanted/index.html www.allegro.com/sieler From edick at idcomm.com Mon Oct 15 18:51:33 2001 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:44 2005 Subject: Unknown IC References: <01101417242400.07848@ws1> Message-ID: <000001c155d8$f72cf4a0$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> Those later types of adders/ALU's came with several different adder types, e.g. fast-carry, carry-save, etc. The '181 was the normal ALU and the '182 was the lookahead carry generator. That relationship is clouded in the later versions, since they're really both adders. You need to examine the specifics of the version you're using and how it's applied to determine its role in a digital signal processing application. Dick ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jim Donoghue" To: Sent: Sunday, October 14, 2001 3:24 PM Subject: Unknown IC > Anybody know what a 74F582 is? 24-pin DIP, it's on a processor board along > with several 74LS181's and various others. Thanks. > > From jrkeys at concentric.net Mon Oct 15 20:03:53 2001 From: jrkeys at concentric.net (John R. Keys Jr.) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:45 2005 Subject: Cromemco Pick-up on 10-13-01 References: <01C155AA.85B334C0@mse-d03> Message-ID: <010601c155de$6e4c9d60$89731fd1@default> Thanks for the offer and if I get this other truck I looked at today I will come up and get anything you want to toss. Otherwise my van has just about had it when it comes to long trips. I if you have any internal parts left let me know as I just looked at these units today and they have been picked clean inside. ----- Original Message ----- From: "M H Stein" To: "'ClassicComputers'" Sent: Monday, October 15, 2001 5:39 PM Subject: Cromemco Pick-up on 10-13-01 > John, > > Gee, just dumpstered 3 System 3's and 2 CS100's; since we're now shipping all our Toronto garbage to Michigan, ya coulda stopped at the dump on your way back & picked them up as well :-) > > However, although the rest of the chassis (2xCS420, 2xCS300, 1xCS2H, 3xCS1H, 1xSystem3, 1xZ2, BRZII, C5 etc., and nice and clean at that), will probably have to go as well 'cause nobody wants to come up here to the frozen north, the cards, manuals & software may be around a little longer, so let me know if ya need anything. > > mike > > ---------------------- > > Date: Sun, 14 Oct 2001 18:54:05 -0500 > From: "John R. Keys Jr." > Subject: Cromemco Pick-up on 10-13-01 > > This pass Saturday was a long drive MN to IL (12 hours total drive time) > to pick up 2- Cromemco System Three's, a Systemv CS-300, one new in the > box KB for these systems, lots of manuals and software for them, a > Cipher 1600BPI tape unit, a model BRZ-III fan for the units, and some > parts. All will have to be cleaned up as they are pretty dirty and need > some loving care. The guy had over 1600sq feet of computer stuff he is > selling most on eBay.:-( At a local thrift I got some Sega master > stuff, like the 3D glasses that have been selling on eBay for $50, I got > mine for a couple dollars. Got a Virtual Boy system for $11.99. Got > some Atari 2600 stuff also they were selling cartridges for 80 cents and > they had two big boxes full. Now I will start the clean-up and entering > all the info into the database (my paper notebooks). Keep computing John > From rhblakeman at kih.net Mon Oct 15 20:13:21 2001 From: rhblakeman at kih.net (Russ Blakeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:45 2005 Subject: Need info/manuals/software - Microtest 14 CD Dicport Tower In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Found this at Procom's website - not the exact same box but the same DiscView software http://www.procom.com/support/optical/workgroup/cdtower/manuals/7-14e1.asp -> -----Original Message----- -> From: owner-classiccmp@classiccmp.org -> [mailto:owner-classiccmp@classiccmp.org]On Behalf Of Mike Ford -> Sent: Monday, October 15, 2001 6:24 PM -> To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org -> Subject: Re: Need info/manuals/software - Microtest 14 CD Dicport Tower -> -> -> > Anyone have one of these in use and could possibly be a -> source for a -> >copy of the manual, disks, etc? Just bought one on auction -> but of course -> >no docs or software and this is NOT SCSI to the server, it works on the -> >LAN and has SCSI drives in it. Even if someone can send me the -> manual so -> >I can scan or copy it and send it back that would be great too -> and maybe -> >I might have something excess here (besdies actual cash to pay the -> >shipping and materials back) to express my thanks. Russ Blakeman -> >Clarkson, KY USA -> -> I bought a MicroTest Discport at the last TRW, mine is just the put a CD -> ROM on the net box, but when I hunted I thought I found -> MicroTest was still -> around. OTOH I don't seem to have any software, so maybe they -> don't support -> it anymore ? If you find something let me know too. -> -> -> From jimdavis at gorge.net Mon Oct 15 20:32:08 2001 From: jimdavis at gorge.net (Jim Davis) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:45 2005 Subject: Unknown IC References: <836.688T700T2514101optimus@canit.se> <15307.23072.365967.464842@phaduka.neurotica.com> Message-ID: <3BCB8E18.3C54F44A@gorge.net> A 181 was also used in the Wang 2200-T processor. A SINGLE 181. Jim Davis. > The '181 is even used in the pdp11/04 and /34 if memory serves. > Anyone know of any others? > > -Dave > > -- > Dave McGuire > Laurel, MD From ghldbrd at ccp.com Mon Oct 15 20:40:33 2001 From: ghldbrd at ccp.com (Gary Hildebrand) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:45 2005 Subject: SCSI problems Message-ID: <3BCB9011.58870C38@ccp.com> A friend has a 9 gig Seagate drive and an Adaptec 1542C card and is having a helluva time getting it to work with a late model motherboard. boots okay from an IDE drive, but the aforementioned setup hangs almost every time. Do you know of an incompatibility with the drive and card; i.e. too much drive for the scsi bios to understand??? Gary Hildebrand From technos at nerdland.org Sun Oct 14 21:00:03 2001 From: technos at nerdland.org (Jim Tuck) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:45 2005 Subject: Need info/manuals/software - Microtest 14 CD Dicport Tower Message-ID: <01C154FB.94321840.technos@nerdland.org> MicroTest is still around.. They sold off their NAS stuff, but a quick search for for 'NAS Microtest GPL violation' tells me the new company is xStore at http://www.xstoreonline.com Jim On Monday, October 15, 2001 7:24 PM, Mike Ford [SMTP:mikeford@socal.rr.com] wrote: > > Anyone have one of these in use and could possibly be a source for a > >copy of the manual, disks, etc? Just bought one on auction but of course > >no docs or software and this is NOT SCSI to the server, it works on the > >LAN and has SCSI drives in it. Even if someone can send me the manual so > >I can scan or copy it and send it back that would be great too and maybe > >I might have something excess here (besdies actual cash to pay the > >shipping and materials back) to express my thanks. Russ Blakeman > >Clarkson, KY USA > > I bought a MicroTest Discport at the last TRW, mine is just the put a CD > ROM on the net box, but when I hunted I thought I found MicroTest was still > around. OTOH I don't seem to have any software, so maybe they don't support > it anymore ? If you find something let me know too. > From geoffr at zipcon.net Mon Oct 15 21:16:16 2001 From: geoffr at zipcon.net (Geoff Reed) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:45 2005 Subject: IIgs using hard disk 20 In-Reply-To: <200110160016.f9G0GYV07719@shell1.aracnet.com> References: Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20011015191532.00a3ba60@mail.zipcon.net> There are 2 models of that. there's the Hard Disk 20 which had a Mac floppy interface on it, and the Apple Hard Disk 20 SC which had a SCSI interface. At 05:16 PM 10/15/01 -0700, you wrote: >I don't think the one that he's talking about is SCSI, it plugs directly >into the floppy port on a Mac 128k or Mac 512K. ISTR, using one on a newer >Mac Plus instead of a SCSI drive as I needed something of that formfactor >and that was all I could get my hands on at the time. > >Based on how it's used, I'm guessing you're right about it being a MFM >drive, but I suspect it's some wierd sort of bridge in it. > > Zane > > > > I think I've got an old Hard Disk 20 and it's a SCSI device. I'll have > to find > > the lid to see what it says on it, though. It seems to me that it's an > old MFM > > drive with a customed up SCSI bridge adapter on it. > > > > Dick > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: "Chris" > > To: "Classic Computer" > > Sent: Monday, October 15, 2001 2:39 PM > > Subject: IIgs using hard disk 20 > > > > > > > Does anyone know if an Apple IIgs can use an old Macintosh Hard Disk 20. > > > The Mac HD is NOT scsi, but rather uses the disk drive port on a Mac. It > > > was designed to work with older non scsi macs (128k 512k), and could be > > > daisy chained thru the disk drive ports (at one point, I think I had 3 HD > > > 20s and a 400k drive connected to my 128k Mac). > > > > > > The IIgs has a disk drive port, and visually, the 3.5" drive I have for > > > it looks just like the 3.5" drive I have off an old Mac Classic (I have > > > to go off visual, as the one from the Classic has no labels or other > > > markers beyond the apple logo... don't know why, that is the way it was > > > when it was given to me). > > > > > > I was hoping maybe they used the same ports, and I might be able to use > > > the HD 20 with my IIgs so I can add a hard drive to it. > > > > > > Anyone info would be great. > > > > > > > > > > > > -chris > > > > > > > > > > > > > > From geoffr at zipcon.net Mon Oct 15 21:20:26 2001 From: geoffr at zipcon.net (Geoff Reed) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:45 2005 Subject: SCSI problems In-Reply-To: <3BCB9011.58870C38@ccp.com> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20011015191939.02ce0510@mail.zipcon.net> What BIOS revision on the 1542C? what motherboard? what BIOS rev on that motherboard. and which 9 gig seagate? At 08:40 PM 10/15/01 -0500, you wrote: >A friend has a 9 gig Seagate drive and an Adaptec 1542C card and is >having a helluva time getting it to work with a late model motherboard. >boots okay from an IDE drive, but the aforementioned setup hangs almost >every time. > >Do you know of an incompatibility with the drive and card; i.e. too much >drive for the scsi bios to understand??? > >Gary Hildebrand From thompson at mail.athenet.net Mon Oct 15 21:18:48 2001 From: thompson at mail.athenet.net (Paul Thompson) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:45 2005 Subject: RS6000 7012-320H In-Reply-To: <20011015112138.A11707@mordor.angband.thangorodrim.de> Message-ID: On Mon, 15 Oct 2001, Alexander Schreiber wrote: > Hi! > > On Mon, Oct 15, 2001 at 04:09:24AM +0000, Ken Seefried wrote: > > > Luckily, there is a Linux port of JFS (http://oss.software.ibm.com/jfs/). I > > dunno if it will mount a native JFS filesystem from a legacy AIX box, but it > > should show you what you need to do to get started. > > Of course, if this works it would be a much easier approach than hacking > raw blocks on disk. I thought I had read somewhere that this was the OS/2 JFS rather than the AIX JFS. Sorry I am not anywhere where I can double check it, however. Incidentally, AIX JFS supports data compression, but not on system disks. That could represent a challenge for data recovery on non-rootvg drives. From cbajpai at mediaone.net Mon Oct 15 21:27:56 2001 From: cbajpai at mediaone.net (Chandra Bajpai) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:45 2005 Subject: Rescue / Sale in AZ: PET, Tandy, Apple, PC In-Reply-To: <3BCB676F.4A47E645@bluefrognet.net> Message-ID: <000701c155ea$2c2c6620$b97ba8c0@ne.mediaone.net> If I remember this was a while ago...late Spring??? Anyways forget about it....the prices they were asking were higher than Ebay!!! -Chandra -----Original Message----- From: owner-classiccmp@classiccmp.org [mailto:owner-classiccmp@classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of bigfish@bluefrognet.net Sent: Monday, October 15, 2001 6:47 PM To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org Subject: Re: Rescue / Sale in AZ: PET, Tandy, Apple, PC I am interested in the 3m thermofaxes. are they still avail? I will contribute$$$$$$$. please advise, Gordon Link From jtinker at coin.org Mon Oct 15 21:28:03 2001 From: jtinker at coin.org (jtinker@coin.org) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:45 2005 Subject: looking for documentation for 1963 minuteman missile computer Message-ID: <200110160204.f9G24Ex23643@mail.mcmsys.com> Wow, even a users group! This is great. The boards are beautifully done, discrete logic, and dipped in a conformal coating. Each transistor or diode has its own serial number, which I assume provides traceability to quality control. The card cage is cylindrical, and surrounds where the "stabile platform" would go, except they were removed before the computers were surplused, for reasons of secrecy. I heard once that the whole thing cost about $1/2 million, half for the computer and half for the stabile platform. There is a port in the card cage where a telescope on the stabile platform gets to look out at something, presumably the sun or stars. Thanks for the info, John Tinker 10/15/01 3:02:34 PM, "Peter C. Wallace" wrote: >On Mon, 15 Oct 2001 jtinker@coin.org wrote: > >> I'm looking for documentation for a 1963 minuteman missile navigation >> computer. Any leads would be appreciated. >> >> Thanks, >> John Tinker >> >> >> > > >I have a little info if it's the D17B (1962) > >(from "Proceedings of the minuteman computer users group" Tulane Univ >1973) > >Type: Serial synchronous > >Number system: Fractional binary fixed point 2's complemant > >Logic levels: 0V = false, -10V = true > >Data word length: 11 or 24 (double precision) > >Instruction length: 24 bits > >Intructions: 39 > >Maximum I/O words/Second: 25600 > >Execution times: add ~78 uSec, multiply ~546 uSec, Double prec multiply >~1015 uSec > > >Memory: 24 bits + 3 timing bits >Type: Oxide coated disk >cycle time ~78 uSec >Capacity 5454 words 2727 double prec (24 bit). > >I/O: 43 digital lines, 31 pulse type, 12 analog (from 3 8 bit A-D) > program I/O 800 5 bit c/s > > >Size: 20" high x 29" diameter > >Power 28VDC +- 1V @ 17 A > >Circuits: DTL+DRL double copperclad gold plated glass fiber laminate >with polyurethane conformal coat > > > >The newer D37C (1964) is mostly the same except has a larger disk and more >instructions > >Peter Wallace >Mesa Electronics > > From edick at idcomm.com Mon Oct 15 21:29:19 2001 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:45 2005 Subject: SCSI problems References: <3BCB9011.58870C38@ccp.com> Message-ID: <000d01c155ea$5c727e00$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> If it's in a PnP motherboard, it's really important that the interrupt assignments don't clash. I don't know about the 'C' verson, but I've got several 'B' and 'A' version boards, and a plain 1540. All of them require Irq11 and port address 0x330 and DMA5 in order to work from the BIOS. If you can get the motherboard to allow it to use those assignments, the firmware works. Windows will find the board after a little massaging if you don't use the default addresses, but the firmware won't find it. These aboards are also pretty fussy about having the termination right. SCSI will often limp along with incorrect termination, but it eventually will bite you. I'd recommend a check to ensure the board isn't providing redundant termination. I know of no reason why a motherboard with ISA slots shouldn't work just fine with thsi board. It's unlikely even a current generation Seagate drive shouldn't work with this board, so long as it's SE SCSI. There are probably transfer rate settings that can be handled through the BIOS, depending on the version. A check with ADAPTEC should settle this thing pdq if you find the faq's. Dick ----- Original Message ----- From: "Gary Hildebrand" To: "Classic computing mailing list" Sent: Monday, October 15, 2001 7:40 PM Subject: SCSI problems > A friend has a 9 gig Seagate drive and an Adaptec 1542C card and is > having a helluva time getting it to work with a late model motherboard. > boots okay from an IDE drive, but the aforementioned setup hangs almost > every time. > > Do you know of an incompatibility with the drive and card; i.e. too much > drive for the scsi bios to understand??? > > Gary Hildebrand > > From lgwalker at mts.net Mon Oct 15 22:29:42 2001 From: lgwalker at mts.net (Lawrence Walker) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:45 2005 Subject: IIgs using hard disk 20 In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <3BCB6356.19163.41D0F6F@localhost> > >> was designed to work with older non scsi macs (128k 512k), and could be > >> daisy chained thru the disk drive ports > > > >Are you SURE? I have an HD20 which works just fine on a Plus, but which I > >have NEVER been able to make work on a 128k. My 512k has video problems > >and I haven't had a chance to sort those out so I can test the HD20 on it. > > I was almost 100% positive that I once had it working on a 128k, but a > search of apple's TIL shows that the HD20 works with the 512ke, Plus, SE, > Classic, IIci, and Portable... so I guess I never took it lower than my > Plus (I never owned either of the 512's). This is going to be a head > scratcher for me for some time... I distinctly remember hooking it up to > my 128. (I can picture sitting in front of the table working on it... I > guess I must have failed in my attempts, but I could have sworn I was > successful) > > -chris > > > I have a card in my 512 which increases memory and gives a SCSI port. It's called a MacSnap by Dove computer, dated 1985. It actually consists of 2 cards. One contains the memory chips aand circuitry and the other has the SCSI socket and also 2 large chips labelled upper and lower ROMs. I'm even able to boot off the external HDD. Lawrence. Reply to: lgwalker@mts.net From mythtech at Mac.com Mon Oct 15 21:32:10 2001 From: mythtech at Mac.com (Chris) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:45 2005 Subject: IIgs using hard disk 20 Message-ID: >I think I've got an old Hard Disk 20 and it's a SCSI device. I'll have to >find >the lid to see what it says on it, though. It seems to me that it's an >old MFM >drive with a customed up SCSI bridge adapter on it. There are two different products with the name Hard Disk 20. One is the Apple Hard Disk 20 SC and it is a SCSI device. There were also 40, 80 and I think 160 mb versions (and maybe others in larger sizes). BUT... predating that was a "Macintosh Hard Disk 20" that was not scsi. Rather is was some drive (don't know what kind, but MFM seems sensible enough) that used a special adaptor board that enabled it to plug into the disk drive port on a bunch of the older macs. It was all enclosed (drive, power supply, adaptor board) in one nice zero footprint beige case (back when beige meant brown, and not grey like "beige" computers of today). They are two totally different drives, sold at two different time periods (although, I do believe they overlapped for a while, until the SCSI version completely replaced the disk drive version). -chris From cmurillo at emtelsa.multi.net.co Mon Oct 15 20:24:39 2001 From: cmurillo at emtelsa.multi.net.co (Carlos Murillo) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:45 2005 Subject: looking for documentation for 1963 minuteman missile computer In-Reply-To: <7A9BACCEF0171D4FB77019F5104CDD372257DC@jeffserver.tegjeff. com> Message-ID: <3.0.2.32.20011015212439.01c950d8@obregon.multi.net.co> Rocket science is in the rocket engine. Navigation is not that hard, comparatively... At 03:12 PM 10/15/01 -0400, you wrote: >Let's hope they're all bought up by domestic hobbyists... > >;-) > >-dq -------------------------------------------------------------- Carlos E. Murillo-Sanchez carlos_murillo@nospammers.ieee.org From rhblakeman at kih.net Mon Oct 15 22:04:26 2001 From: rhblakeman at kih.net (Russ Blakeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:45 2005 Subject: SCSI problems In-Reply-To: <3BCB9011.58870C38@ccp.com> Message-ID: If there is an IDE drive it will not boot from SCSI - he has to take out the IDE and eneable the bios on the Adaptec, also make sure that the drive's ID is 0 to 6 and that the adaptec card is ID 7 and that termination is set on the drive if it's the only SCSI device. I have 9 of the same type (full hieght seagate 5.25" 9gb SCSI 2 with 50 pin connection) in my old Server 320 and it works fine. Of course I'm using an Adaptec PCI ultra wide 2940UW and 2940W Wide adapter as well as a 2740 EISA controller as I have tape and cdrom drives on the server as well. I have my boot device as ID 0. Adaptec has the docs in PDF on their support site for all the old adapters. -> -----Original Message----- -> From: owner-classiccmp@classiccmp.org -> [mailto:owner-classiccmp@classiccmp.org]On Behalf Of Gary Hildebrand -> Sent: Monday, October 15, 2001 8:41 PM -> To: Classic computing mailing list -> Subject: SCSI problems -> -> -> A friend has a 9 gig Seagate drive and an Adaptec 1542C card and is -> having a helluva time getting it to work with a late model motherboard. -> boots okay from an IDE drive, but the aforementioned setup hangs almost -> every time. -> -> Do you know of an incompatibility with the drive and card; i.e. too much -> drive for the scsi bios to understand??? -> -> Gary Hildebrand -> From cmurillo at emtelsa.multi.net.co Mon Oct 15 21:14:26 2001 From: cmurillo at emtelsa.multi.net.co (Carlos Murillo) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:45 2005 Subject: looking for documentation for 1963 minuteman missile computer In-Reply-To: References: <200110151649.f9FGntN26300@mail.mcmsys.com> Message-ID: <3.0.2.32.20011015221426.01c9952c@obregon.multi.net.co> At 01:02 PM 10/15/01 -0700, you wrote: >I have a little info if it's the D17B (1962) > >(from "Proceedings of the minuteman computer users group" Tulane Univ >1973) >Number system: Fractional binary fixed point 2's complemant Makes absolute sense in order to maximize the throuput. >Logic levels: 0V = false, -10V = true > >Data word length: 11 or 24 (double precision) >Execution times: add ~78 uSec, multiply ~546 uSec, Double prec multiply >~1015 uSec It probably used 24 bit accumulation... I'm impressed. However, that's way too slow to implement any modern scheme (several orders of magnitude too slow). It probably used a mixture of analog/digital control; analog for the single-variable, high bandwidth servoing; digital for the higher hierarchy control. Carlos. -------------------------------------------------------------- Carlos E. Murillo-Sanchez carlos_murillo@nospammers.ieee.org From cmurillo at emtelsa.multi.net.co Mon Oct 15 21:19:25 2001 From: cmurillo at emtelsa.multi.net.co (Carlos Murillo) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:45 2005 Subject: looking for documentation for 1963 minuteman missile computer In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <3.0.2.32.20011015221925.01c950d8@obregon.multi.net.co> At 02:05 PM 10/15/01 -0700, Gene wrote: >On Mon, 15 Oct 2001, Russ Blakeman wrote: >> It takes a little more than a nav computer to create a problem. All of the >> arming equipment that is reposnible for the "nuclear consent" is destroyed >> on-site, even trainer equipment. >> >If you've got access to the warhead, all you need is a power supply, a >capacitor bank and the desire to become component atoms. :) A capacitor bank? Is this to ensure homogeneity in a compression w. standard explosives triggering scheme? Carlos. -------------------------------------------------------------- Carlos E. Murillo-Sanchez carlos_murillo@nospammers.ieee.org From cmurillo at emtelsa.multi.net.co Mon Oct 15 21:20:57 2001 From: cmurillo at emtelsa.multi.net.co (Carlos Murillo) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:45 2005 Subject: looking for documentation for 1963 minuteman missile computer In-Reply-To: References: <3BCB330B.201B57F5@ecubics.com> Message-ID: <3.0.2.32.20011015222057.01c9d120@obregon.multi.net.co> At 10:34 PM 10/15/01 +0100, you wrote: >> > I have seen the boards out of one of the minutemen missile computers. IIRC >> > they are very interesting Boards composed of discrete components. Anyone who >> > has a full computer is very lucky. I would consider it to be an extremely >> > rare collectable. >> >> Usually when they're coming your way, you're not thinking about >> collecting them ;-) >> > >And after the computers have arrived, they (and possibly you) are not >in a state to be worth collecting :-) > >-tony You become, in fact, uncollectable :-). -------------------------------------------------------------- Carlos E. Murillo-Sanchez carlos_murillo@nospammers.ieee.org From SUPRDAVE at aol.com Mon Oct 15 22:28:27 2001 From: SUPRDAVE at aol.com (SUPRDAVE@aol.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:45 2005 Subject: IIgs using hard disk 20 Message-ID: <149.31d2309.28fd035b@aol.com> In a message dated 10/15/01 10:41:05 PM Eastern Daylight Time, mythtech@Mac.com writes: << There are two different products with the name Hard Disk 20. One is the Apple Hard Disk 20 SC and it is a SCSI device. There were also 40, 80 and I think 160 mb versions (and maybe others in larger sizes). BUT... predating that was a "Macintosh Hard Disk 20" that was not scsi. Rather is was some drive (don't know what kind, but MFM seems sensible enough) that used a special adaptor board that enabled it to plug into the disk drive port on a bunch of the older macs. It was all enclosed (drive, power supply, adaptor board) in one nice zero footprint beige case (back when beige meant brown, and not grey like "beige" computers of today). They are two totally different drives, sold at two different time periods (although, I do believe they overlapped for a while, until the SCSI version completely replaced the disk drive version). -chris >> I have a couple of those hard disk 20s that still work, one was recovered from a trash bin with a professor's work still intact! I have a mac128, but has an aftermarket board in it that upgrades it to a plus class machine, but I do know it works just fine with the 512k models I have. even though it's 20 meg, disk access is only about as fast as the floppy drive. -- DB Young Team OS/2 old computers, hot rod pinto, barbie's rocket motorhome and more at: www.nothingtodo.org From technos at nerdland.org Sun Oct 14 22:43:59 2001 From: technos at nerdland.org (Jim Tuck) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:45 2005 Subject: looking for documentation for 1963 minuteman missile computer Message-ID: <01C1550A.19594800.technos@nerdland.org> On Monday, October 15, 2001 9:25 PM, Carlos Murillo [SMTP:cmurillo@emtelsa.multi.net.co] wrote: > Rocket science is in the rocket engine. Navigation is > not that hard, comparatively... > When all you have to navigate with is a computer that takes a full second to multiply and a telescope that could probably only sense the horizon it gets a bit harder.. Jim > At 03:12 PM 10/15/01 -0400, you wrote: > >Let's hope they're all bought up by domestic hobbyists... > > > >;-) > > > >-dq > > -------------------------------------------------------------- > Carlos E. Murillo-Sanchez carlos_murillo@nospammers.ieee.org From red at bears.org Mon Oct 15 22:40:45 2001 From: red at bears.org (r. 'bear' stricklin) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:45 2005 Subject: IIgs using hard disk 20 In-Reply-To: <149.31d2309.28fd035b@aol.com> Message-ID: On Mon, 15 Oct 2001 SUPRDAVE@aol.com wrote: > BUT... predating that was a "Macintosh Hard Disk 20" that was not scsi. > Rather is was some drive (don't know what kind, but MFM seems sensible > enough) that used a special adaptor board that enabled it to plug into > the disk drive port on a bunch of the older macs. I looked in mine. It uses a Rodime 552 mechanism with a custom logic board. I'm currently backing up the data on it to try one more time to make it work on a thin mac. I recalled being hesitant to try much since, at the time, I didn't know what irreplacable relics of ancient software I'd be losing. Once I found out it worked on a Plus, I discovered it had System 6 installed on it, which I realise now may be why it doesn't work with the 128k. ok r. From rhblakeman at kih.net Mon Oct 15 22:55:16 2001 From: rhblakeman at kih.net (Russ Blakeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:45 2005 Subject: looking for documentation for 1963 minuteman missile computer In-Reply-To: <3.0.2.32.20011015221426.01c9952c@obregon.multi.net.co> Message-ID: Most of the older AF missile equipment had an A/D and D/A convertor, usually sent "discretes" out to the servos, servopositioners, accelerometers, etc. -> -----Original Message----- -> From: owner-classiccmp@classiccmp.org -> [mailto:owner-classiccmp@classiccmp.org]On Behalf Of Carlos Murillo -> Sent: Monday, October 15, 2001 9:14 PM -> To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org -> Subject: Re: looking for documentation for 1963 minuteman missile -> computer -> -> -> At 01:02 PM 10/15/01 -0700, you wrote: -> >I have a little info if it's the D17B (1962) -> > -> >(from "Proceedings of the minuteman computer users group" Tulane Univ -> >1973) -> >Number system: Fractional binary fixed point 2's complemant -> -> Makes absolute sense in order to maximize the throuput. -> -> >Logic levels: 0V = false, -10V = true -> > -> >Data word length: 11 or 24 (double precision) -> >Execution times: add ~78 uSec, multiply ~546 uSec, Double prec multiply -> >~1015 uSec -> -> It probably used 24 bit accumulation... I'm impressed. However, -> that's way too slow to implement any modern scheme (several orders -> of magnitude too slow). -> -> It probably used a mixture of analog/digital control; analog -> for the single-variable, high bandwidth servoing; digital for -> the higher hierarchy control. -> -> Carlos. -> -> -------------------------------------------------------------- -> Carlos E. Murillo-Sanchez carlos_murillo@nospammers.ieee.org -> -> From lgwalker at mts.net Tue Oct 16 00:44:25 2001 From: lgwalker at mts.net (Lawrence Walker) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:45 2005 Subject: OT - was Re: ArcNet and the Pursuit of Multiple Topologies In-Reply-To: References: <3BCB13F6.23252.2E6F33F@localhost> Message-ID: <3BCB82E9.1800.4986C18@localhost> This is my last OT comment, since we ARE a classic computer mailing list and just went thru that rash of OT msgs. Again, my apologies. Don the point that I was trying to make was not that you obviously have foreign investment in the global economy, but that the US government exerts it's considerable economic and media clout to further it's corporate presence and ideology in countries around the world to the detriment of most of those country's people. For example years ago an attempt was made to restrict the virtual monopoly Hollywood has on the distribution of films in the Canadian market, thus encouraging the production of Canadian films, which would be on the no longer h-wood monopolized theatre booking lists. Jack Valenti, h-wood's main lobbyist campaigned very vigorously against it in Washington and the Can government was forced to bow to US pressure. We now have little or no Can films being produced independantly. A similiar thing happened to advertising tax exemptions in the Can editions of US magazines. Time, etc. just throws in a few extra pages, calls it Canadian and gets all the benefits meant to encourage canadian press.The Canadian government passed a act to disallow it amidst screams of outrage from Time, Newsweek, etc., and then bowed to major US government pressures less than about a month later. During the oil crisis, oil destined for Can was diverted to US ports which ultimately caused PM Trudeau to set up a Can company to prevent this happening again. As happened in the US when the big agribusiness corps like Cargill forced the small farmers off the farm, the same thing is going on here. But since Cargill and others are US businesses supported by thier government there is much less accountability to the plight of the poor farmers. Our medicare, beloved by all Canadians, is under threat now due to the avericious propaganda by US assembly-line medical mega-corps greedily eyeing the Canadian market and US government efforts to undermine it through International trade agreements. At present if hit by a major medical expense our homes are not at risk. Our lumber exports to the US were just hit with a prohibitive tax due to US lobbying by timber interests, throwing thousands out of work (and incidentally, increasing the cost to US consumers). Not to mention the decimation of our manufacturing industry and more by the implimentation and manipulation of NAFTA. These are but a few examples, the tip of the iceberg. Of course,since, but for a few exceptions like CBC and local media, the US media overwhelmingly controls what most Canadians see and listen to, we are very much influenced by it to our own detriment in many cases. And this is to the US's closest "friend" and largest trading "partner". Imagine what it's like for more distant countries. 'Nuff said. Lawrence > > It is not my wish to extend an OT thread, but I would like to point that > it is a multi-way street. At the same time that US companies are > purchasing companies in NZ, CA, and others, AU, UK, DE, and others are > purchasing companies in the US in such industries as Newspapers and TV, > petroleum products, automobile manufacturing, etc. I do not know how it > balances out in $$$, but there are big bucks going every way. > > - don > > > On Mon, 15 Oct 2001, Lawrence Walker wrote: > > > As a Canadian, I can only second that and offer my sympathy. The majority > > of U.S. citizens seem woefully ignorant of the affects around the world of > > U.S corporate and foreign policy. And no, I'm not anti the US people. My wife > > of many years was an US-American, as well as both my parents. I also lived in > > the US several years and have many old friends and relatives there. > > I've found them a warm and open people. > > Since I have a claim to dual-citizenship I could have lived there had I > > wished. > > I prefer my country and it's social policies, like you, I'm sure. I don't envy > > the US in the least. I just want to keep the things I love about Canada and > > not have it become even more a subsiduary of the US. > > N.Z. is more fortunate in that it isn't right next door to the beast and you > > don't have a "free" trade agreement. A measure of US regard is that most in > > the US don't consider the many peoples and countries in the Americas as > > "American". > > Sorry for the OT and I don't wish to offend my neighbors, but the US > > bafflement at foreign resentment gets to me at times. > > Now back to 'puters. > > > > Lawrence > > > > > > > > > > A citizen of NewZealandCorp, a wholly-owned subsidiary of USA Inc. > > > > > > > > I hope you don't mind my asking, but is the US in disfavor with > > > > the citizens of New Zealand? > > > > > > Not really. That comment isn't directed at the US, but at the > > > last few NZ governments, who seem to have been bent on privatising > > > all our public assets and selling them to big US companies. If > > > it goes on like that, you're going to own the whole country! > > > > > > Greg Ewing, Computer Science Dept, +--------------------------------------+ > > > University of Canterbury, | A citizen of NewZealandCorp, a | > > > Christchurch, New Zealand | wholly-owned subsidiary of USA Inc. | > > > greg@cosc.canterbury.ac.nz +--------------------------------------+ > > > > > > > > Reply to: > > lgwalker@mts.net > > > Reply to: lgwalker@mts.net From cmurillo at emtelsa.multi.net.co Mon Oct 15 23:34:15 2001 From: cmurillo at emtelsa.multi.net.co (Carlos Murillo) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:45 2005 Subject: looking for documentation for 1963 minuteman missile computer In-Reply-To: <01C1550A.19594800.technos@nerdland.org> Message-ID: <3.0.2.32.20011016003415.01ca0a88@obregon.multi.net.co> At 11:43 PM 10/14/01 -0400, you wrote: >On Monday, October 15, 2001 9:25 PM, Carlos Murillo wrote: >> Rocket science is in the rocket engine. Navigation is >> not that hard, comparatively... > >When all you have to navigate with is a computer that takes >a full (milli)second to multiply and a telescope that could probably >only sense the horizon it gets a bit harder.. > > >Jim Agreed. But at this point in time, navigation algorithms that are sufficiently precise can be developed/recreated by (almost) anyone with a phd in control theory. Rocket engine science is lots harder, because it is still a (largely) experimental affair. carlos. -------------------------------------------------------------- Carlos E. Murillo-Sanchez carlos_murillo@nospammers.ieee.org From jpdavis at gorge.net Tue Oct 16 00:29:33 2001 From: jpdavis at gorge.net (Jim Davis) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:45 2005 Subject: OT - was Re: ArcNet and the Pursuit of Multiple Topologies References: <3BCB13F6.23252.2E6F33F@localhost> <3BCB82E9.1800.4986C18@localhost> Message-ID: <3BCBC5BD.D0CA67C8@gorge.net> Lawrence Walker wrote: > > This is my last OT comment, since we ARE a classic computer mailing list > and just went thru that rash of OT msgs. Again, my apologies. > Don the point that I was trying to make was not that you obviously have > foreign investment in the global economy, but that the US government exerts > it's considerable economic and media clout to further it's corporate presence > and ideology in countries around the world to the detriment of most of those > country's people. How is this a BAD THING for US citizens? And why would we care about anybody else. If Canada, New Zealand, Australia or Europe could pull it off, they would. And in most cases, They are, with tariffs and trade restrictions. < hwood and media control of canuk pols snipped> Again, thats your problem, you voted for those morons. > During the oil crisis, oil destined for Can was diverted to US ports which > ultimately caused PM Trudeau to set up a Can company to prevent this > happening again. As happened in the US when the big agribusiness corps > like Cargill forced the small farmers off the farm, the same thing is going on > here. But since Cargill and others are US businesses supported by thier > government there is much less accountability to the plight of the poor > farmers. Likewise, free enterprise. > Our medicare, beloved by all Canadians, is under threat now due to the > avericious propaganda by US assembly-line medical mega-corps greedily > eyeing the Canadian market and US government efforts to undermine it > through International trade agreements. At present if hit by a major medical > expense our homes are not at risk. Maybe you should get off of your little socialist ass and fight for real freedom. The suck from your social systems breeds a bunch of useless slacker losers and an ecomony that rivals Mexaco. That's YOUR problem. Not OURS. < nafta and timber dumping yammering snipped as a courtesy detail > > Of course,since, but for a few exceptions like CBC and local media, the US > media overwhelmingly controls what most Canadians see and listen to, we > are very much influenced by it to our own detriment in many cases. > And this is to the US's closest "friend" and largest trading "partner". Imagine > what it's like for more distant countries. What about LEXX, Tasteless, sexy bordering on porn. > 'Nuff said. Not really, but, like you said, "This is my last OT comment, since we ARE a classic computer mailing list and just went thru that rash of OT msgs. Again, my apologies." Whats your excuse? > ACK, Life sucks everywhere, unless you have a bankrupt government like Canada that uses irreplacable resources to get the citizens fat and happy, FOR NOW. WAKE UP, the party is over! From mhstein at usa.net Tue Oct 16 00:15:47 2001 From: mhstein at usa.net (M H Stein) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:45 2005 Subject: IBM unit record (punched card, tabulating machine) docs Message-ID: <01C155E5.EB30CC00@mse-d03> Some real vintage (although "computer" would be stretching it) docs looking for a GOOD home: IBM 402/403 & associated peripherals manuals & some schematics. mike From mhstein at usa.net Tue Oct 16 00:22:28 2001 From: mhstein at usa.net (M H Stein) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:45 2005 Subject: Punch cards, punch & mag tapes (Toronto) Message-ID: <01C155E5.EEDB3660@mse-d03> Anybody interested in 1 or 2 boxes of 80 col cards and a manual punch to punch them with (Made by/for Wright Line, sort of like a big Dymo writer: dial your character and punch the holes)? Also have 4 or 5 reels of mag tape, new and used. mike From wilby98 at yahoo.com Tue Oct 16 02:13:48 2001 From: wilby98 at yahoo.com (William S.) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:45 2005 Subject: looking for documentation for 1963 minuteman missile computer In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20011016071348.6430.qmail@web13302.mail.yahoo.com> I came up with this link to more info about the users group. It has documentation as well for programming, etc. http://www.insinga.com/antique/d17b2/ Bill Amsterdam, NL --- Gene Buckle wrote: > > > On Mon, 15 Oct 2001, Russ Blakeman wrote: > > > And that's the key words - access to the warhead > (by yourself) which is why __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Make a great connection at Yahoo! Personals. http://personals.yahoo.com From dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com Tue Oct 16 08:33:42 2001 From: dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com (Douglas Quebbeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:45 2005 Subject: ArcNet and the Pursuit of Multiple Topologies Message-ID: <7A9BACCEF0171D4FB77019F5104CDD372257DE@jeffserver.tegjeff.com> > Now I'm thinking that the "T" in "10BaseT", "100BaseT4", etc. and the T in > the line capacities "T-1", "T-2", etc. are the same thing. > Is that true? I thought the 'T' in 'T1' stood for "trunk", as in trunk line... -dq From dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com Tue Oct 16 08:38:50 2001 From: dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com (Douglas Quebbeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:45 2005 Subject: SCSI problems Message-ID: <7A9BACCEF0171D4FB77019F5104CDD372257DF@jeffserver.tegjeff.com> > A friend has a 9 gig Seagate drive and an Adaptec 1542C card and is > having a helluva time getting it to work with a late model > motherboard. > boots okay from an IDE drive, but the aforementioned setup > hangs almost > every time. > > Do you know of an incompatibility with the drive and card; > i.e. too much > drive for the scsi bios to understand??? The card has trouble with high transfer rates. The on-board BIOS allows you to limit that to 5MB/s; when I slowed it down to that, it worked fine for me. YMMV (rather, HMMV), etc... -dq From dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com Tue Oct 16 08:40:49 2001 From: dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com (Douglas Quebbeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:45 2005 Subject: IIgs using hard disk 20 Message-ID: <7A9BACCEF0171D4FB77019F5104CDD372257E0@jeffserver.tegjeff.com> > BUT... predating that was a "Macintosh Hard Disk 20" that was not scsi. > Rather is was some drive (don't know what kind, but MFM seems sensible > enough) that used a special adaptor board that enabled it to plug into > the disk drive port on a bunch of the older macs. It was all enclosed > (drive, power supply, adaptor board) in one nice zero footprint beige > case (back when beige meant brown, and not grey like "beige" computers of > today). In spite of the now long-extant senility, I seem to recall that these interfaces through the serial port, not the floppy port. Regards, -dq From dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com Tue Oct 16 08:42:17 2001 From: dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com (Douglas Quebbeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:45 2005 Subject: IIgs using hard disk 20 Message-ID: <7A9BACCEF0171D4FB77019F5104CDD372257E1@jeffserver.tegjeff.com> > I have a card in my 512 which increases memory and gives a SCSI port. > It's called a MacSnap by Dove computer, dated 1985. It actually consists of > 2 cards. One contains the memory chips aand circuitry and the other has > the SCSI socket and also 2 large chips labelled upper and lower ROMs. I'm > even able to boot off the external HDD. Great product, I used mine with a Cutting Edge 30MB external drive until the drive's piggyback OMTI SCSI <=> MFM adapter went south. Anyone know where I can get one of these tiny adapters? -dq From dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com Tue Oct 16 08:45:46 2001 From: dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com (Douglas Quebbeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:45 2005 Subject: looking for documentation for 1963 minuteman missile computer Message-ID: <7A9BACCEF0171D4FB77019F5104CDD372257E2@jeffserver.tegjeff.com> > At 11:43 PM 10/14/01 -0400, you wrote: > >On Monday, October 15, 2001 9:25 PM, Carlos Murillo wrote: > >> Rocket science is in the rocket engine. Navigation is > >> not that hard, comparatively... > > > >When all you have to navigate with is a computer that takes > >a full (milli)second to multiply and a telescope that could probably > >only sense the horizon it gets a bit harder.. > > Agreed. But at this point in time, navigation algorithms that > are sufficiently precise can be developed/recreated by (almost) > anyone with a phd in control theory. Rocket engine science is > lots harder, because it is still a (largely) experimental affair. True. Despite development over 40 years, witness the recent death of the Linear Aerospike. Although in fairness, the engine is working fine, it's the fuel tanks that we still don't know how to build... -dq From geneb at deltasoft.com Tue Oct 16 09:10:11 2001 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (Gene Buckle) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:45 2005 Subject: looking for documentation for 1963 minuteman missile computer In-Reply-To: <3.0.2.32.20011015221925.01c950d8@obregon.multi.net.co> Message-ID: > At 02:05 PM 10/15/01 -0700, Gene wrote: > >On Mon, 15 Oct 2001, Russ Blakeman wrote: > >> It takes a little more than a nav computer to create a problem. All of the > >> arming equipment that is reposnible for the "nuclear consent" is destroyed > >> on-site, even trainer equipment. > >> > >If you've got access to the warhead, all you need is a power supply, a > >capacitor bank and the desire to become component atoms. :) > > A capacitor bank? Is this to ensure homogeneity in a > compression w. standard explosives triggering scheme? > Actually, I was thinking the caps would be required to fire the ignitors from a portable power source. However, since I'm not a nuclear weapons designer or an explosives expert, I'm making a guess on function based upon what I've read and seen on shows that documented the original construction of Fat Man. :) g. From RCini at congressfinancial.com Tue Oct 16 09:34:50 2001 From: RCini at congressfinancial.com (Cini, Richard) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:45 2005 Subject: IIgs using hard disk 20 Message-ID: <497A9E0467D2D2119B760090271EB8E5879EAB@MAIL10> Doug: It was through the floppy port. It used a special boot disk with a "HD20" init to make it work. I haven't opened mine recently, but the drive only had one I/F connector on it but I can't remember the pin count. I could look tonight. Rich ========================== Richard A. Cini, Jr. Congress Financial Corporation 1133 Avenue of the Americas 30th Floor New York, NY 10036 (212) 545-4402 (212) 840-6259 (facsimile) -----Original Message----- From: Douglas Quebbeman [mailto:dhquebbeman@theestopinalgroup.com] Sent: Tuesday, October 16, 2001 9:41 AM To: 'classiccmp@classiccmp.org' Subject: RE: IIgs using hard disk 20 > BUT... predating that was a "Macintosh Hard Disk 20" that was not scsi. > Rather is was some drive (don't know what kind, but MFM seems sensible > enough) that used a special adaptor board that enabled it to plug into > the disk drive port on a bunch of the older macs. It was all enclosed > (drive, power supply, adaptor board) in one nice zero footprint beige > case (back when beige meant brown, and not grey like "beige" computers of > today). In spite of the now long-extant senility, I seem to recall that these interfaces through the serial port, not the floppy port. Regards, -dq From Joseph.Salamido at tobyhanna.army.mil Tue Oct 16 09:53:07 2001 From: Joseph.Salamido at tobyhanna.army.mil (Salamido, Joseph) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:45 2005 Subject: Information Please -- HP 13037D Storage Control Unit Message-ID: <57D1FBA2906ED211ABF200805FA7913A05FEA86F@ntd2-exg2-bn592.tobyhanna.army.mil> Skipped content of type multipart/alternative-------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: TechTool.gif Type: image/gif Size: 2135 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20011016/1a58b7ce/TechTool.gif From Joseph.Salamido at tobyhanna.army.mil Tue Oct 16 09:56:19 2001 From: Joseph.Salamido at tobyhanna.army.mil (Salamido, Joseph) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:45 2005 Subject: HP1000F/2117F Message-ID: <57D1FBA2906ED211ABF200805FA7913A05FEA870@ntd2-exg2-bn592.tobyhanna.army.mil> Skipped content of type multipart/alternative-------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: TechTool.gif Type: image/gif Size: 2135 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20011016/ca8ddd37/TechTool.gif From erd_6502 at yahoo.com Tue Oct 16 10:11:23 2001 From: erd_6502 at yahoo.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:45 2005 Subject: Punch cards, punch & mag tapes (Toronto) In-Reply-To: <01C155E5.EEDB3660@mse-d03> Message-ID: <20011016151123.32735.qmail@web20101.mail.yahoo.com> --- M H Stein wrote: > Anybody interested in 1 or 2 boxes of 80 col cards and a manual punch to > punch them with (Made by/for Wright Line, sort of like a big Dymo writer: > dial your character and punch the holes)? Yes! I have a Model 26 cardpunch and less than 200 cards. -ethan __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Make a great connection at Yahoo! Personals. http://personals.yahoo.com From erd_6502 at yahoo.com Tue Oct 16 10:15:51 2001 From: erd_6502 at yahoo.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:45 2005 Subject: SCSI problems In-Reply-To: <000d01c155ea$5c727e00$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> Message-ID: <20011016151551.38536.qmail@web20105.mail.yahoo.com> --- Richard Erlacher wrote: > If it's in a PnP motherboard, it's really important that the interrupt > assignments don't clash. I don't know about the 'C' verson, but I've got > several 'B' and 'A' version boards, and a plain 1540. All of them > require Irq11 and port address 0x330 and DMA5 in order to work from the > BIOS. The C is a *nice* card - it's incredibly flexible with its own BIOS setup program that runs if you have one of the dip switches set to allow it (you can also run it without its own SCSI BIOS if DOS memory is at a premium). You can run surface scans and even do a low-level format (very useful for a batch of 4Gb drives I got that were formatted to 524 bytes/block). I have been using one since I got it new @ $200. Great card. They should be <$25 now. I see them all the time at the Dayton ComputerFest. If you need an ISA SCSI controller, I can recommend it. There are two flavors, though - 1542C and 1542CF - F for Fast. The original rev wasn't in spec for SCSI-2 Fast. There's an ECO (a wire and a capacitor) and new ROMs. -ethan __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Make a great connection at Yahoo! Personals. http://personals.yahoo.com From DAW at yalepress3.unipress.yale.edu Tue Oct 16 10:21:00 2001 From: DAW at yalepress3.unipress.yale.edu (David Woyciesjes) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:45 2005 Subject: IIgs using hard disk 20 Message-ID: <9011A52E011ED311B4280004AC1BA61501467177@yalepress3.unipress.yale.edu> ! From: Louis Schulman [mailto:louiss@gate.net] ! ! Won't work, simply because the floppy port on the GS doesn't ! have the firmware to support the HD20, while ! the early Macs did. But there are many better hard drive ! options for a GS, anyway. ! ! Louis ! ! On Mon, 15 Oct 2001 16:39:02 -0400, Chris wrote: ! ! #Does anyone know if an Apple IIgs can use an old Macintosh ! #Hard Disk 20. The Mac HD is NOT scsi, but rather uses the ! #disk drive port on a Mac. It ... Louis --- Umm, okay, what are those other HDD options? I'm curious... :-) --- David A Woyciesjes --- C & IS Support Specialist --- Yale University Press --- mailto:david.woyciesjes@yale.edu --- (203) 432-0953 --- ICQ # - 905818 From mmcfadden at cmh.edu Tue Oct 16 10:16:50 2001 From: mmcfadden at cmh.edu (McFadden, Mike) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:45 2005 Subject: Unidentified device: trans lux teleprinter Message-ID: > I came across a terminal that was labeled Trans Lux Teleprinter, The case > is blue and there is a multicolored keyboard, some red, blue and white > keys. I have tried google and altavista web searches with out any luck. > I haven't taken the pile of computers apart to look at the name plate. > Any knowledge about this device? > > Mike > mmcfadden@cmh.edu > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20011016/f3ab8bf1/attachment.html From korpela at ssl.berkeley.edu Tue Oct 16 10:41:33 2001 From: korpela at ssl.berkeley.edu (Eric J. Korpela) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:45 2005 Subject: looking for documentation for 1963 minuteman missile computer In-Reply-To: <01C1550A.19594800.technos@nerdland.org> from Jim Tuck at "Oct 14, 2001 11:43:59 pm" Message-ID: <200110161541.IAA13094@ellie.ssl.berkeley.edu> > > > On Monday, October 15, 2001 9:25 PM, Carlos Murillo > [SMTP:cmurillo@emtelsa.multi.net.co] wrote: > > Rocket science is in the rocket engine. Navigation is > > not that hard, comparatively... > > > > When all you have to navigate with is a computer that takes > a full second to multiply and a telescope that could probably > only sense the horizon it gets a bit harder.. I agree. The principle behind a rocket engine is obvious. The rest is just minor improvements. Attitude and trajectory control is much less obvious. Doesn't take long for a gyro alone to drift enough that your V2 misses london entirely. A Minuteman is a lot more accurate than a V2 and has a longer boost phase. Anyone know what its attitude instument package was? Eric From fernande at internet1.net Tue Oct 16 10:39:13 2001 From: fernande at internet1.net (Chad Fernandez) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:45 2005 Subject: IIgs using hard disk 20 References: <7A9BACCEF0171D4FB77019F5104CDD372257E0@jeffserver.tegjeff.com> Message-ID: <3BCC54A1.E953054B@internet1.net> Definitely the floppy port. I have one sitting unused at my folks house complete with a 4meg Mac Plus. Sometimes I have to power cycle the whole thing to get it to boot, do I'm thinking that the drive might be going bad. Chad Fernandez Michigan, USA Douglas Quebbeman wrote: > In spite of the now long-extant senility, I seem to recall that these > interfaces through the serial port, not the floppy port. > > Regards, > -dq From kcalvin at chartertn.net Sun Oct 14 16:51:03 2001 From: kcalvin at chartertn.net (Kent Calvin) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:46 2005 Subject: Epson Equity 1 Message-ID: <000a01c154fa$51d8bb80$84219f18@chartertn.net> I'm looking for a keyboard for an Epson Equity 1. I have many vintage computers and parts for trading. Thanks, Kent -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20011014/970ccf78/attachment.html From erd_6502 at yahoo.com Tue Oct 16 11:19:58 2001 From: erd_6502 at yahoo.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:46 2005 Subject: Multibus (was Re: OT: Dark Tower) In-Reply-To: <685.688T2550T13996371optimus@canit.se> Message-ID: <20011016161958.98401.qmail@web20106.mail.yahoo.com> --- Iggy Drougge wrote: > Ethan Dicks skrev: > > >NCR had a line of multibus-based 68K-family UNIX machines called "NCR > >Towers"... > > ISTR reading that very early SUNs used Multibus, too. What kind of bus > was that? What did it look like, and what other platforms used it? > It seems to have been quite popular at some time. Older Cisco routers (AGS+, etc.) also used Multibus. There were two connectors, one at 0.154" pitch, the other at a smaller pitch (0.125"?) The cards were approx 12" wide and 6" tall (might be a little larger). I think the data path was limited to 16 bits, but I could be wrong on that. It was common to see on Motorola processors before VME. > It seems to have been quite popular at some time. AFAIK, it was either free to use or cheap to license, and didn't require proprietary connectors like DEC busses. -ethan __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Make a great connection at Yahoo! Personals. http://personals.yahoo.com From quapla at xs4all.nl Tue Oct 16 13:19:47 2001 From: quapla at xs4all.nl (The Wanderer) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:46 2005 Subject: Punch cards, punch & mag tapes (Toronto) References: <01C155E5.EEDB3660@mse-d03> Message-ID: <3BCC7A43.2AD3D1BC@xs4all.nl> Hello, If the punch is still available, them I'm very intrested. I can also use some cards as well. Thanks, Ed M H Stein wrote: > > Anybody interested in 1 or 2 boxes of 80 col cards and a manual punch to punch them with (Made by/for Wright Line, sort of like a big Dymo writer: dial your character and punch the holes)? > > Also have 4 or 5 reels of mag tape, new and used. > > mike -- The Wanderer | Politici zijn gore oplichters. quapla@xs4all.nl | Europarlementariers: zakkenvullers http://www.xs4all.nl/~quapla | en neuspeuteraars. Unix Lives! M$ Windows is rommel! | Kilometerheffing : De overheid '97 TL1000S | weet waar je bent geweest! From foo at siconic.com Tue Oct 16 11:18:18 2001 From: foo at siconic.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:46 2005 Subject: OT - was Re: ArcNet and the Pursuit of Multiple Topologies In-Reply-To: <3BCBC5BD.D0CA67C8@gorge.net> Message-ID: On Mon, 15 Oct 2001, Jim Davis wrote: > freedom. The suck from your social systems breeds a bunch of useless > slacker losers and an ecomony that rivals Mexaco. That's YOUR problem. > Not OURS. ^^^^^^ America's exemplary educational system rears its ugly head. > WAKE UP, the party is over! Wake up, indeed. Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org From erd_6502 at yahoo.com Tue Oct 16 11:23:46 2001 From: erd_6502 at yahoo.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:46 2005 Subject: Dark Tower - any internals info out there? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20011016162346.43849.qmail@web20103.mail.yahoo.com> --- Tony Duell wrote: > > > >of games like Dark Tower function. I've never seen inside one but I > > > >presume there's a custom chip that's a microprocessor, RAM and ROM > > > >all rolled into one, for cost reasons. > > In my (limited) experience, most electronic toy/games from that time > frame contain a mask-programmed microcontroller. Normally a > TMS1000-series device. That's a good lead right there. How did they do development for a mask-programmed chip? Desk check it, burn a run and hope for the best? Simulators? Prototype with identical architecture but external program storage? Any good pages on the TMS1000? With an understanding of the capbabilities of the chip, it's easier to guess how a designer might have implemented certain functions. -ethan __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Make a great connection at Yahoo! Personals. http://personals.yahoo.com From fernande at internet1.net Tue Oct 16 11:23:11 2001 From: fernande at internet1.net (Chad Fernandez) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:46 2005 Subject: Almost Free, for pick up only in Michigan MicroPDP11/73 Message-ID: <3BCC5EEF.4CE5AF8B@internet1.net> Hello All, Please respond privately.... this is going to two lists. I have a Micro PDP11 that I would like move to a new home. It is an 11/73 that uses the CPU board from the 11/83. It is the 18mhz J11 CPU with FPU (M8190-AE). It currently has 2megs of ECC memory, although I have about 3megs worth of parity that could be swapped in instead. Various other boards are included (no scsi boards :-) It is in the tower mounted BA23. The case is clean, but has a few flaws.... scratches and the base is cracked, and one of the little horns? where the back cover fits it cracked. Overall the case looks very nice. The steel chassis itself could use a vacuum, However. I could get into he ROM with a terminal, but never got it to boot from the RD54 HD. It complained of a bad controller (m7555). I have spares, but never tried them. It could be the drive as this particular PDP11 has a bad history with drives according to the documentation that came with it. The main reason I would like to move this on, is because I don't have the time to learn about it. I know nothing of the PDP11 OS's. Plus I have a Vax that I would like to get working, and lots of other little projects. In the subject line, I state "almost free". I do have some money in it, and would like to recoup at least some of it, so I'd like to get $40 for it. That's certainly much lower than what it would fetch on Ebay. I live in Battle Creek, MI. It's right off of I94 about 1/2 way in between Detroit and Chicago. Here is the info on the cpu board from the field guide: M8190-AE KDJ11-BF Q/U 11/83-84 CPU J11 CPU 18MHz with 2 boot & M8190-AE diagnostic ROMs, FPJ11-AA. M8190-AE Refs: EK-KDJ1B-UG, uNOTE N#025, N#030, N#035, N#039 Thanks, Chad Fernandez Michigan, USA From dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com Tue Oct 16 11:36:30 2001 From: dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com (Douglas Quebbeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:46 2005 Subject: IIgs using hard disk 20 Message-ID: <7A9BACCEF0171D4FB77019F5104CDD372257E3@jeffserver.tegjeff.com> > Doug: > > It was through the floppy port. It used a special boot > disk with a "HD20" init to make it work. > > I haven't opened mine recently, but the drive only had one I/F > connector on it but I can't remember the pin count. I could > look tonight. Aging is a terrible price to pay for maturity... :-( -dq From dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com Tue Oct 16 11:38:55 2001 From: dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com (Douglas Quebbeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:46 2005 Subject: SCSI problems Message-ID: <7A9BACCEF0171D4FB77019F5104CDD372257E4@jeffserver.tegjeff.com> > I have been using one since I got it new @ $200. Great card. They > should be <$25 now. I see them all the time at the Dayton > ComputerFest. Picked up a 1542CF almost two years ago at a MarketPro show for $19.95. -dq From dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com Tue Oct 16 11:39:41 2001 From: dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com (Douglas Quebbeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:46 2005 Subject: Unidentified device: trans lux teleprinter Message-ID: <7A9BACCEF0171D4FB77019F5104CDD372257E5@jeffserver.tegjeff.com> Strange.... Trans-Lux was the name of a chain of long-gone movie theaters... -dq -----Original Message----- From: McFadden, Mike [mailto:mmcfadden@cmh.edu] Sent: Tuesday, October 16, 2001 11:17 AM To: 'classiccmp@classiccmp.org' Subject: Unidentified device: trans lux teleprinter I came across a terminal that was labeled Trans Lux Teleprinter, The case is blue and there is a multicolored keyboard, some red, blue and white keys. I have tried google and altavista web searches with out any luck. I haven't taken the pile of computers apart to look at the name plate. Any knowledge about this device? Mike mmcfadden@cmh.edu From erd_6502 at yahoo.com Tue Oct 16 11:41:17 2001 From: erd_6502 at yahoo.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:46 2005 Subject: 74170F - 4x4 "register file" - what's it good for? In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.2.20011014205041.0285ff80@pop.azstarnet.com> Message-ID: <20011016164117.51750.qmail@web20105.mail.yahoo.com> I recently "helped" a friend by accepting a largeish box of discarded engineering samples, etc., when his employer cleaned house. In the box of assorted (and unsorted ;-) ICs were a quantity of 74170Fs (and 54170Fs. I have quite a few 54-series parts from places that spent big bucks for protyping supplies then threw them out later), maybe 20-30. Not recognizing the part number, I turned to the 'net to look them up. So they are a "4x4 O.C. register file"... The only thing I could think to use them for would be SSI/MSI microprocessor implementations. Did they have a typical use? One cool side effect of going through all these chips - most of them have date codes from 1969 - 1978. Nice for repairing vintage machines with. -ethan __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Make a great connection at Yahoo! Personals. http://personals.yahoo.com From at258 at osfn.org Tue Oct 16 11:41:59 2001 From: at258 at osfn.org (Merle K. Peirce) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:46 2005 Subject: OT - was Re: ArcNet and the Pursuit of Multiple Topologies In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Tue, 16 Oct 2001, Sellam Ismail wrote: > On Mon, 15 Oct 2001, Jim Davis wrote: > > > freedom. The suck from your social systems breeds a bunch of useless > > slacker losers and an ecomony that rivals Mexaco. That's YOUR problem. > > Not OURS. ^^^^^^ > > America's exemplary educational system rears its ugly head. To say nothing of its innate charm and good taste. M. K. Peirce Rhode Island Computer Museum, Inc. Shady Lea, Rhode Island "Casta est quam nemo rogavit." - Ovid From mldrew at drewtech.com Tue Oct 16 12:06:34 2001 From: mldrew at drewtech.com (Michael L. Drew) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:46 2005 Subject: Almost Free, for pick up only in Michigan MicroPDP11/73 References: <3BCC5EEF.4CE5AF8B@internet1.net> Message-ID: <3BCC691A.F31B9A00@drewtech.com> Chad , I am interested and in Ann Arbor... Not a bad drive at all... Mike Chad Fernandez wrote: > Hello All, > > Please respond privately.... this is going to two lists. > > I have a Micro PDP11 that I would like move to a new home. It is an > 11/73 that uses the CPU board from the 11/83. It is the 18mhz J11 CPU > with FPU (M8190-AE). It currently has 2megs of ECC memory, although I > have about 3megs worth of parity that could be swapped in instead. > Various other boards are included (no scsi boards :-) It is in the > tower mounted BA23. The case is clean, but has a few flaws.... > scratches and the base is cracked, and one of the little horns? where > the back cover fits it cracked. Overall the case looks very nice. The > steel chassis itself could use a vacuum, However. > > I could get into he ROM with a terminal, but never got it to boot from > the RD54 HD. It complained of a bad controller (m7555). I have spares, > but never tried them. It could be the drive as this particular PDP11 > has a bad history with drives according to the documentation that came > with it. > > The main reason I would like to move this on, is because I don't have > the time to learn about it. I know nothing of the PDP11 OS's. Plus I > have a Vax that I would like to get working, and lots of other little > projects. > > In the subject line, I state "almost free". I do have some money in it, > and would like to recoup at least some of it, so I'd like to get $40 for > it. That's certainly much lower than what it would fetch on Ebay. > > I live in Battle Creek, MI. It's right off of I94 about 1/2 way in > between Detroit and Chicago. > > Here is the info on the cpu board from the field guide: > > M8190-AE KDJ11-BF Q/U 11/83-84 CPU J11 CPU 18MHz with 2 boot & > M8190-AE diagnostic ROMs, FPJ11-AA. > M8190-AE Refs: EK-KDJ1B-UG, uNOTE N#025, N#030, N#035, N#039 > > Thanks, > > Chad Fernandez > Michigan, USA -- =============================================================================== Michael L. Drew Drew Technologies, Inc. 41 Enterprise Drive Ann Arbor, MI 48103 Phone: (734) 623-8080 Fax: (734) 623-8082 =============================================================================== From red at bears.org Tue Oct 16 12:08:38 2001 From: red at bears.org (r. 'bear' stricklin) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:46 2005 Subject: IIgs using hard disk 20 In-Reply-To: <7A9BACCEF0171D4FB77019F5104CDD372257E0@jeffserver.tegjeff.com> Message-ID: On Tue, 16 Oct 2001, Douglas Quebbeman wrote: > > BUT... predating that was a "Macintosh Hard Disk 20" that was not scsi. > > In spite of the now long-extant senility, I seem to recall that these > interfaces through the serial port, not the floppy port. Nope, the Apple Macintosh Hard Disk 20 most certainly plugs into the floppy port. The trick is, the floppy port is essentially a 500 kbit/sec serial interface. Supposedly the HD20 INIT contains code to patch the 512k ROMs to allow the use of an 800k floppy disk drive, as well as the code to use the HD20 itself. I need to fix some cold solder joints in my 512k before I can do any real testing of this, though. ok r. From erd_6502 at yahoo.com Tue Oct 16 12:18:45 2001 From: erd_6502 at yahoo.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:46 2005 Subject: New aquisitions: PCjr (minus power supply) and Amstrad PC 6400 In-Reply-To: <003a01c15507$df95e800$9cee9a8d@ajp166> Message-ID: <20011016171845.52249.qmail@web20103.mail.yahoo.com> Went to a new thrift store this week. Ended up with way more stuff than I expected to. The big items were a complete Amstrad PC 6400 (8-bit PC clone, dual half-height floppies, 3 ISA slots, proprietary monitor that powers the base through a monster DIN connector, proprietary keyboard with 9-pin joystick connector) and a nearly complete PCjr w/128K and parallel port sidecars (got non-chicklet keyboard w/cable and CPU, but no PSU). How much should a PCjr PSU run me? What cartridges were there for it? The company I used to write kids games for (Software Productions - makers of "Alphabet Beasts and Company, Micro Mother Goose, Micro Habitats, etc.) did support it, but I was the C-64 dude, not the PeeCee dude. (ob digression: when the company closed, we _did_ hold the door open with the PCjr - it really was a doorstop ;-) The scary part is that the Amstrad was about triple the cost of the Peanut (~$6 (after markdown from $11) vs ~$2). I guess size does matter. So far in my digging, I've found that the Amstrad PC 6400 is the American name for the Amstrad PC 1640, and I found a good Amstrad resource at http://web.ukonline.co.uk/cliff.lawson/index.htm Any other good tips? -ethan __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Make a great connection at Yahoo! Personals. http://personals.yahoo.com From fernande at internet1.net Tue Oct 16 12:22:12 2001 From: fernande at internet1.net (Chad Fernandez) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:46 2005 Subject: SCSI problems References: <7A9BACCEF0171D4FB77019F5104CDD372257E4@jeffserver.tegjeff.com> Message-ID: <3BCC6CC4.4D4983B4@internet1.net> We had a Market Pro show here once or twice. They had nothing that I wanted. It was almost all new stuff and the prices were kind of high. The show I go to here in Michigan is called A1 Supercomputer sales, I think. It is a locally run ( I think) chain of shows. They usually have a good mix of new and used. The more used, the better for me :-) Chad Fernandez Michigan, USA Douglas Quebbeman wrote: > Picked up a 1542CF almost two years ago at a MarketPro show for $19.95. > > -dq From mythtech at Mac.com Tue Oct 16 12:32:49 2001 From: mythtech at Mac.com (Chris) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:46 2005 Subject: IIgs using hard disk 20 Message-ID: >Sometimes I have to power cycle the whole thing to get it to boot, do >I'm thinking that the drive might be going bad. If it doesn't boot when you first turn it on, you might not have let it come up to speed fully. It takes a good 20-30 seconds to come up to speed before you can turn the mac on. The drive light will turn on, then start blinking steady, after about 20 seconds, you will hear the drive click a whole lot, and the light will blink rapidly for about 2 seconds... after that, it is up to speed and safe to turn on the Mac and try booting. -chris From fernande at internet1.net Tue Oct 16 12:48:01 2001 From: fernande at internet1.net (Chad Fernandez) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:46 2005 Subject: Almost Free, for pick up only in Michigan MicroPDP11/73 References: <3BCC5EEF.4CE5AF8B@internet1.net> <3BCC691A.F31B9A00@drewtech.com> Message-ID: <3BCC72D1.28687BEA@internet1.net> I didn't think I get response this fast. Your about 3rd in line. I'll keep you posted if things change. Thanks, Chad "Michael L. Drew" wrote: > > Chad , > > I am interested and in Ann Arbor... > > Not a bad drive at all... > > Mike > > Chad Fernandez wrote: > > > Hello All, > > > > Please respond privately.... this is going to two lists. > > > > I have a Micro PDP11 that I would like move to a new home. It is an > > 11/73 that uses the CPU board from the 11/83. It is the 18mhz J11 CPU > > with FPU (M8190-AE). It currently has 2megs of ECC memory, although I > > have about 3megs worth of parity that could be swapped in instead. > > Various other boards are included (no scsi boards :-) It is in the > > tower mounted BA23. The case is clean, but has a few flaws.... > > scratches and the base is cracked, and one of the little horns? where > > the back cover fits it cracked. Overall the case looks very nice. The > > steel chassis itself could use a vacuum, However. > > > > I could get into he ROM with a terminal, but never got it to boot from > > the RD54 HD. It complained of a bad controller (m7555). I have spares, > > but never tried them. It could be the drive as this particular PDP11 > > has a bad history with drives according to the documentation that came > > with it. > > > > The main reason I would like to move this on, is because I don't have > > the time to learn about it. I know nothing of the PDP11 OS's. Plus I > > have a Vax that I would like to get working, and lots of other little > > projects. > > > > In the subject line, I state "almost free". I do have some money in it, > > and would like to recoup at least some of it, so I'd like to get $40 for > > it. That's certainly much lower than what it would fetch on Ebay. > > > > I live in Battle Creek, MI. It's right off of I94 about 1/2 way in > > between Detroit and Chicago. > > > > Here is the info on the cpu board from the field guide: > > > > M8190-AE KDJ11-BF Q/U 11/83-84 CPU J11 CPU 18MHz with 2 boot & > > M8190-AE diagnostic ROMs, FPJ11-AA. > > M8190-AE Refs: EK-KDJ1B-UG, uNOTE N#025, N#030, N#035, N#039 > > > > Thanks, > > > > Chad Fernandez > > Michigan, USA > > -- > > =============================================================================== > > Michael L. Drew > Drew Technologies, Inc. > 41 Enterprise Drive > Ann Arbor, MI 48103 > Phone: (734) 623-8080 > Fax: (734) 623-8082 > =============================================================================== From vance at ikickass.org Tue Oct 16 12:52:06 2001 From: vance at ikickass.org (One Without Reason) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:46 2005 Subject: RS6000 7012-320H In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Mon, 15 Oct 2001, Paul Thompson wrote: > > Of course, if this works it would be a much easier approach than hacking > > raw blocks on disk. > > I thought I had read somewhere that this was the OS/2 JFS rather than the > AIX JFS. Sorry I am not anywhere where I can double check it, however. OS/2 JFS is AIX JFS. They are the same. > Incidentally, AIX JFS supports data compression, but not on system disks. > That could represent a challenge for data recovery on non-rootvg drives. Indeed. Peace... Sridhar From erd_6502 at yahoo.com Tue Oct 16 13:00:27 2001 From: erd_6502 at yahoo.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:46 2005 Subject: Almost Free, for pick up only in Michigan MicroPDP11/73 In-Reply-To: <3BCC691A.F31B9A00@drewtech.com> Message-ID: <20011016180027.24120.qmail@web20106.mail.yahoo.com> --- "Michael L. Drew" wrote: > Chad , > > I am interested and in Ann Arbor... > > Not a bad drive at all... For a $40 J-11 system, I'd drive from Ohio. > Chad Fernandez wrote: > > > ...18mhz J11 CPU with FPU (M8190-AE). -ethan __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Make a great connection at Yahoo! Personals. http://personals.yahoo.com From pcw at mesanet.com Tue Oct 16 13:08:18 2001 From: pcw at mesanet.com (Peter C. Wallace) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:46 2005 Subject: looking for documentation for 1963 minuteman missile computer In-Reply-To: <200110160204.f9G24Ex23643@mail.mcmsys.com> Message-ID: On Mon, 15 Oct 2001 jtinker@coin.org wrote: > Wow, even a users group! This is great. > > The boards are beautifully done, discrete logic, and dipped in a conformal > coating. Each transistor or diode has its own serial number, which I assume > provides traceability to quality control. The card cage is cylindrical, and > surrounds where the "stabile platform" would go, except they were removed > before the computers were surplused, for reasons of secrecy. I heard once that > the whole thing cost about $1/2 million, half for the computer and half for the > stabile platform. There is a port in the card cage where a telescope on the > stabile platform gets to look out at something, presumably the sun or stars. > > Thanks for the info, > > John Tinker Actually I had some of the stabile platform stuff (star tracker) (bought at UC Berkeley's surplus around 1975) Still have a few pieces left. I remember disasembling the gimble stuff (with its built-in direct drive torque motors) so I could give the titanium hardware to a bicycle nut friend of mine. No expense spared on that stuff, Titanium shafts and hardware, Tungsten balance weights etc etc > > 10/15/01 3:02:34 PM, "Peter C. Wallace" wrote: > > >On Mon, 15 Oct 2001 jtinker@coin.org wrote: > > > >> I'm looking for documentation for a 1963 minuteman missile navigation > >> computer. Any leads would be appreciated. > >> > >> Thanks, > >> John Tinker > >> > >> > >> > > > > > >I have a little info if it's the D17B (1962) > > > >(from "Proceedings of the minuteman computer users group" Tulane Univ > >1973) > > > >Type: Serial synchronous > > > >Number system: Fractional binary fixed point 2's complemant > > > >Logic levels: 0V = false, -10V = true > > > >Data word length: 11 or 24 (double precision) > > > >Instruction length: 24 bits > > > >Intructions: 39 > > > >Maximum I/O words/Second: 25600 > > > >Execution times: add ~78 uSec, multiply ~546 uSec, Double prec multiply > >~1015 uSec > > > > > >Memory: 24 bits + 3 timing bits > >Type: Oxide coated disk > >cycle time ~78 uSec > >Capacity 5454 words 2727 double prec (24 bit). > > > >I/O: 43 digital lines, 31 pulse type, 12 analog (from 3 8 bit A-D) > > program I/O 800 5 bit c/s > > > > > >Size: 20" high x 29" diameter > > > >Power 28VDC +- 1V @ 17 A > > > >Circuits: DTL+DRL double copperclad gold plated glass fiber laminate > >with polyurethane conformal coat > > > > > > > >The newer D37C (1964) is mostly the same except has a larger disk and more > >instructions > > > >Peter Wallace > >Mesa Electronics > > > > > > > > Peter Wallace Mesa Electronics From mythtech at Mac.com Tue Oct 16 13:14:43 2001 From: mythtech at Mac.com (Chris) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:46 2005 Subject: Dark Tower Pics Message-ID: A few pics of the controller to Dark Tower have been posted. You can find them at . (Pic #28 is missing, it is the same as 29, just out of focus). The board is about 7" x 3" (17.5cm x 7.5cm) There isn't a whole lot on it. 3 lights down the middle that are socketed, an LED digit display, a pair of LEDs (IR send and recieve, it is used with the picture disc to determine what pictures are facing out), there are a handful of resistors, a few Capacitors, 3 transitors (9112 D 07; 9113 D 05; NP2 3704) a choke coil, 2 diodes, and 3 ICs. The 3 ICs are all Texas Instuments, photos of them are on the web site (I made sure you could read the numbers, but they are upside down right now) The two connector looking things on the very end of the board opposite the LED digit display... are in fact connectors. The white one tied to the motor, speaker, and batteries, and the black one tied to the push button panel for user interaction (the push buttons are a flat 3 x 4 pressure panel connected to the board by a ribbon cable.) That is about it. I will try to draw up some basic schematics later (I'm a little busy at work right now, hopefully I will get to it later this week, or maybe next week). I don't know if I will be able to do any testing of my unit. When I opened it I found batteries had been left it in, and leaked. There is some pretty bad corrosion of the largest IC where the battery acid dripped on it. I am hoping it will still work when I clean it and put it all back together, but there is a chance it has been damaged. Also, the LED digits have suffered some damage (the laminate cover is peeling back from corrosion) I will post again when I have the schematics done. -chris From mranalog at home.com Tue Oct 16 13:30:29 2001 From: mranalog at home.com (Doug Coward) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:46 2005 Subject: Philbrick? Message-ID: <3BCC7CC5.2F353F71@home.com> Sat, Oct 13th John Allain wrote: > I appreciate all the responses. > So why computor tubes and not computer? > I guess it's possible that the tubes were replacements > and weren't spec with what GAP meant to use. Since I didn't know the answer I asked someone who was a Philbrick employee from 1949 to 1966. "Hi, Doug: The standard rationale was that the purpose of the spelling was to differentiate between machines that did computing and people who were employed to do so. For example, my wife's roommate, in the early days of her post-college life, had a math degree and was employed at MIT's Whirlwind lab as a "computer", doing computing tasks that were too complex for the digital machines then existing. However, I think that George really invented the term (a) because it was attention-getting, (b) to differentiate his product from the competition, and (c) because he always liked to do things a little differently and more creatively than the next guy." ========================================= Doug Coward @ home in Poulsbo, WA Analog Computer Online Museum and History Center http://www.best.com/~dcoward/analog ========================================= From pcw at mesanet.com Tue Oct 16 13:34:07 2001 From: pcw at mesanet.com (Peter C. Wallace) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:46 2005 Subject: 74170F - 4x4 "register file" - what's it good for? In-Reply-To: <20011016164117.51750.qmail@web20105.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: On Tue, 16 Oct 2001, Ethan Dicks wrote: > > I recently "helped" a friend by accepting a largeish box of discarded > engineering samples, etc., when his employer cleaned house. In the > box of assorted (and unsorted ;-) ICs were a quantity of 74170Fs (and > 54170Fs. I have quite a few 54-series parts from places that spent > big bucks for protyping supplies then threw them out later), maybe 20-30. > Not recognizing the part number, I turned to the 'net to look them up. So > they are a "4x4 O.C. register file"... The only thing I could think to use > them for would be SSI/MSI microprocessor implementations. Did they have a > typical use? We used the ls version of the 170 in 1983 for Z80 memory mapper - part of a CPM era disk emulator that plugged into a Z80 socket The mapper divided 64K into 16 4K blocks which could be original (passthrough) memory or mapped memory on our card. The 170 is sort of the little brother of the ls612 that is used as the DMA memory mapper to extend the 8237s address range on the IBM AT I've also seen the 170 (or 670 the 170's tri-state version) used in 70's vintage processors - the Diablo Hytype II uses a bits-and-pieces processor that uses '170s... > > One cool side effect of going through all these chips - most of them have > date codes from 1969 - 1978. Nice for repairing vintage machines with. > > -ethan > > > __________________________________________________ > Do You Yahoo!? > Make a great connection at Yahoo! Personals. > http://personals.yahoo.com > Peter Wallace Mesa Electronics From mythtech at Mac.com Tue Oct 16 13:48:04 2001 From: mythtech at Mac.com (Chris) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:46 2005 Subject: New aquisitions: PCjr (minus power supply) and Amstrad PC 6400 Message-ID: >How much should a PCjr PSU run me? I will do some digging, I *might* still have a power supply or two kicking around. I had shelves full of PCjrs not to long ago, and I threw out all but one complete unit (PCjr, side car expansion thingy, wireless keyboard and the wire for it, power supply, monitor). I tossed all the PwrS's back then too, but I *think* I have seen one or two still floating around (if you don't mind that it will have a number written on it in white paint). Unfortuantly, the room they would most likely be burried in, the lights are broken right now, so until I get around to changing the ballast, I can't see very well (I just took a quick look with a flashlight, but when I say they would be burried in there, I really mean burried, it is about waist deep in one giant pile of old stuff). If I still have one, I would be willing to give it to you/trade it to you. (you can't have my last one, but worst case, I can tell you what the pinouts are, and the voltages on them, so you can always try to build one yourself... although they do have an odd right angle connector IIRC and that might prove hard to find/replicate) -chris From edick at idcomm.com Tue Oct 16 13:48:51 2001 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:46 2005 Subject: 74170F - 4x4 "register file" - what's it good for? References: <20011016164117.51750.qmail@web20105.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <001c01c15673$32b16980$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> This is essentially a RAM. It's 4 4-bit words, and is commonly used as a translation buffer for extending addresses, etc. I have several old S-100 memory cards of relatively large capacity and these use '170's, or '670's (the tristate version) in order to map a given block of memory into another. Consider, for example, a simple-minded implementation of an EMS scheme. You can map a 16k byte region of memory into an upper block simply by using the upper two address lines to select a 4bit address which you've loaded into the RAM location that corresponds to the location in the '170/'670 that corresponds to the two upper addresses. In order to write to these, it was common to map them into I/O space for read/write, and, when they weren't accessed that way, their output drives the addresses 16..19. One board uses two '670's to generate the upper 8-bits of address. Dick ----- Original Message ----- From: "Ethan Dicks" To: Sent: Tuesday, October 16, 2001 10:41 AM Subject: 74170F - 4x4 "register file" - what's it good for? > > I recently "helped" a friend by accepting a largeish box of discarded > engineering samples, etc., when his employer cleaned house. In the > box of assorted (and unsorted ;-) ICs were a quantity of 74170Fs (and > 54170Fs. I have quite a few 54-series parts from places that spent > big bucks for protyping supplies then threw them out later), maybe 20-30. > Not recognizing the part number, I turned to the 'net to look them up. So > they are a "4x4 O.C. register file"... The only thing I could think to use > them for would be SSI/MSI microprocessor implementations. Did they have a > typical use? > > One cool side effect of going through all these chips - most of them have > date codes from 1969 - 1978. Nice for repairing vintage machines with. > > -ethan > > > __________________________________________________ > Do You Yahoo!? > Make a great connection at Yahoo! Personals. > http://personals.yahoo.com > > From rhblakeman at kih.net Tue Oct 16 13:48:04 2001 From: rhblakeman at kih.net (Russ Blakeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:46 2005 Subject: looking for documentation for 1963 minuteman missile computer In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Modern ignitors go easily with the initiators so they don't really need the cps but they insure a hot spark and no misfires. Old technology was to use the cap bank to create enough spark to fire the equivelant of a bullet/cartridge, now the initiators do that, which are easier to start, like the primer in a bullet/cartridge. Static from a finger on a dry day can set them off. -> -----Original Message----- -> From: owner-classiccmp@classiccmp.org -> [mailto:owner-classiccmp@classiccmp.org]On Behalf Of Gene Buckle -> Sent: Tuesday, October 16, 2001 9:10 AM -> To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org -> Subject: RE: looking for documentation for 1963 minuteman missile -> computer -> -> -> > At 02:05 PM 10/15/01 -0700, Gene wrote: -> > >On Mon, 15 Oct 2001, Russ Blakeman wrote: -> > >> It takes a little more than a nav computer to create a -> problem. All of the -> > >> arming equipment that is reposnible for the "nuclear -> consent" is destroyed -> > >> on-site, even trainer equipment. -> > >> -> > >If you've got access to the warhead, all you need is a power supply, a -> > >capacitor bank and the desire to become component atoms. :) -> > -> > A capacitor bank? Is this to ensure homogeneity in a -> > compression w. standard explosives triggering scheme? -> > -> Actually, I was thinking the caps would be required to fire the ignitors -> from a portable power source. However, since I'm not a nuclear weapons -> designer or an explosives expert, I'm making a guess on function based -> upon what I've read and seen on shows that documented the original -> construction of Fat Man. :) -> -> g. -> -> -> From dpeschel at eskimo.com Tue Oct 16 13:52:36 2001 From: dpeschel at eskimo.com (Derek Peschel) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:46 2005 Subject: IIgs using hard disk 20 In-Reply-To: <7A9BACCEF0171D4FB77019F5104CDD372257E0@jeffserver.tegjeff.com>; from dhquebbeman@theestopinalgroup.com on Tue, Oct 16, 2001 at 09:40:49AM -0400 References: <7A9BACCEF0171D4FB77019F5104CDD372257E0@jeffserver.tegjeff.com> Message-ID: <20011016115236.A15888@eskimo.eskimo.com> On Tue, Oct 16, 2001 at 09:40:49AM -0400, Douglas Quebbeman wrote: > > BUT... predating that was a "Macintosh Hard Disk 20" that was not scsi. > > Rather is was some drive (don't know what kind, but MFM seems sensible > > enough) that used a special adaptor board that enabled it to plug into > > the disk drive port on a bunch of the older macs. It was all enclosed > > (drive, power supply, adaptor board) in one nice zero footprint beige > > case (back when beige meant brown, and not grey like "beige" computers of > > today). > > In spite of the now long-extant senility, I seem to recall that these > interfaces through the serial port, not the floppy port. Hmm, I was sure it was the floppy port (which I believe is a 25-pin connector -- the same size as some serial connectors -- perhaps why you are thinking of the serial port?). -- Derek From rhblakeman at kih.net Tue Oct 16 13:56:40 2001 From: rhblakeman at kih.net (Russ Blakeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:46 2005 Subject: looking for documentation for 1963 minuteman missile computer In-Reply-To: <200110161541.IAA13094@ellie.ssl.berkeley.edu> Message-ID: You don't have to be THAT accurate when you're into kiloton or megaton yields. -> -----Original Message----- -> From: owner-classiccmp@classiccmp.org -> [mailto:owner-classiccmp@classiccmp.org]On Behalf Of Eric J. Korpela -> Sent: Tuesday, October 16, 2001 10:42 AM -> To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org -> Subject: Re: looking for documentation for 1963 minuteman missile -> computer -> -> -> > -> > -> > On Monday, October 15, 2001 9:25 PM, Carlos Murillo -> > [SMTP:cmurillo@emtelsa.multi.net.co] wrote: -> > > Rocket science is in the rocket engine. Navigation is -> > > not that hard, comparatively... -> > > -> > -> > When all you have to navigate with is a computer that takes -> > a full second to multiply and a telescope that could probably -> > only sense the horizon it gets a bit harder.. -> -> I agree. The principle behind a rocket engine is obvious. The rest -> is just minor improvements. Attitude and trajectory control is -> much less -> obvious. Doesn't take long for a gyro alone to drift enough that your -> V2 misses london entirely. A Minuteman is a lot more accurate than a -> V2 and has a longer boost phase. Anyone know what its attitude instument -> package was? -> -> Eric -> From Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de Tue Oct 16 14:09:42 2001 From: Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de (Hans Franke) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:46 2005 Subject: Collections vs. accumulations, was Re: How many collectors? In-Reply-To: References: <3B6C16E8.9D6BD636@tiac.net> Message-ID: <3BCCA216.22742.48B2772C@localhost> > >Vintage computer collecting is really no different from many other forms of > >collecting, its simply less common. > >Vintage car buffs clearly are more advanced in their restoration and repair > >Firearms collecting (in the USA) is probably the most similar form of > >In all these forms of collecting, as well as stamps, coins, and any antiques, > Two basic types of collector, those who assemble sets of items of value, > whose value is enhanced by completeness of the set, and those who collect > examples of fine craftsmanship and items of special merit compared to there > contemporaries. Most of my favorite systems I would be collecting > regardless if they are rare or common. Things I hunt down mostly because > they are rare, often prove much less satisfying to own than to look for. Well, I still go for a variation of Murphey's law, which I found to fit at least my experiance: As soon as you aquired someting you belive to be truly rate and unique, A second incarnation will popup close thereafter. And as a bylaw it's stated: The price asked for the second item is as lower as more you did spend on the first. I got again the proof right after I returned last week: This summer I found a original tool box for a BF 109 figher (basicly a big wooden chest), and I payed a premium to haul it home ... now a good friend of mine, which I was teasing with my find literaly stumbeled across exact the same chest in an old basement - and got it for free! Well. Gruss H. -- VCF Europa 3.0 am 27./28. April 2002 in Muenchen http://www.vcfe.org/ From dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com Tue Oct 16 14:10:18 2001 From: dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com (Douglas Quebbeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:46 2005 Subject: SCSI problems Message-ID: <7A9BACCEF0171D4FB77019F5104CDD372257E7@jeffserver.tegjeff.com> Chad etched into stone for all eternity: > Douglas Quebbeman wrote: > > Picked up a 1542CF almost two years ago at a MarketPro show for $19.95. > > > > We had a Market Pro show here once or twice. They had nothing that I > wanted. It was almost all new stuff and the prices were kind of high. > > The show I go to here in Michigan is called A1 Supercomputer sales, I > think. It is a locally run ( I think) chain of shows. They usually > have a good mix of new and used. The more used, the better for me :-) They do tend to be high, new Americans seeking their fortunes... but a few people carry surplus stuff, and it tends to be priced better if it isn't so decript as to be not worth buying (but perhaps worth picking up off the trash pile). I picked up VB 5 Pro a few years back for $50, and VC++ 5 for the same. But one vendor screwed me out of a academic VB package that came with NT; he had it priced for $50, I made the mistake of asking if it was for real, and immediately it became not so. -dq From red at bears.org Tue Oct 16 14:11:15 2001 From: red at bears.org (r. 'bear' stricklin) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:46 2005 Subject: IIgs using hard disk 20 In-Reply-To: <20011016115236.A15888@eskimo.eskimo.com> Message-ID: On Tue, 16 Oct 2001, Derek Peschel wrote: > Hmm, I was sure it was the floppy port (which I believe is a 25-pin > connector -- the same size as some serial connectors -- perhaps why you are > thinking of the serial port?). Nope, it's a 19 pin D-sub, which makes it physically compatible with the NeXT monochrome display connector. Don't plug a Macintosh floppy drive into the NeXT though, unless you want to start a fire. (; Tony, this is your cue to step in and tell us what it's actual designation is, since it's clearly not a DA, a DB, DC, DD, or a DE. ok r. From rhblakeman at kih.net Tue Oct 16 14:25:06 2001 From: rhblakeman at kih.net (Russ Blakeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:46 2005 Subject: SCSI problems In-Reply-To: <3BCC6CC4.4D4983B4@internet1.net> Message-ID: Not to mention that you can't get a refund, you pay $5 or $6 to get in whether you buy or not, and you may never see the same vendore ever again. Most "new" stuff are factory seconds/refurbs and they don't tell you that the warranty doesn't apply (saw one guy pulling the "refurb" stickers off boxes at one iI went to in Louisville last year) Not all of the vendors are crooks but there sure is a high percentage. -> -----Original Message----- -> From: owner-classiccmp@classiccmp.org -> [mailto:owner-classiccmp@classiccmp.org]On Behalf Of Chad Fernandez -> Sent: Tuesday, October 16, 2001 12:22 PM -> To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org -> Subject: Re: SCSI problems -> -> -> We had a Market Pro show here once or twice. They had nothing that I -> wanted. It was almost all new stuff and the prices were kind of high. -> -> The show I go to here in Michigan is called A1 Supercomputer sales, I -> think. It is a locally run ( I think) chain of shows. They usually -> have a good mix of new and used. The more used, the better for me :-) -> -> Chad Fernandez -> Michigan, USA -> -> Douglas Quebbeman wrote: -> > Picked up a 1542CF almost two years ago at a MarketPro show for $19.95. -> > -> > -dq -> From rhblakeman at kih.net Tue Oct 16 14:29:58 2001 From: rhblakeman at kih.net (Russ Blakeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:46 2005 Subject: SCSI problems In-Reply-To: <20011016151551.38536.qmail@web20105.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: If his Seagtes are ST410800N like mine they are SCSI 2 fast and I have had them on a non-fast controller but I did get sector errors until I did a low level format. They still didn't work right until I put them on the 2740 which does the fast comm scheme. -> -----Original Message----- -> From: owner-classiccmp@classiccmp.org -> [mailto:owner-classiccmp@classiccmp.org]On Behalf Of Ethan Dicks -> Sent: Tuesday, October 16, 2001 10:16 AM -> To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org -> Subject: Re: SCSI problems -> -> -> -> --- Richard Erlacher wrote: -> > If it's in a PnP motherboard, it's really important that the interrupt -> > assignments don't clash. I don't know about the 'C' verson, -> but I've got -> > several 'B' and 'A' version boards, and a plain 1540. All of them -> > require Irq11 and port address 0x330 and DMA5 in order to work from the -> > BIOS. -> -> The C is a *nice* card - it's incredibly flexible with its own BIOS -> setup program that runs if you have one of the dip switches set to -> allow it (you can also run it without its own SCSI BIOS if DOS memory -> is at a premium). You can run surface scans and even do a low-level -> format (very useful for a batch of 4Gb drives I got that were formatted -> to 524 bytes/block). -> -> I have been using one since I got it new @ $200. Great card. They -> should be <$25 now. I see them all the time at the Dayton ComputerFest. -> -> If you need an ISA SCSI controller, I can recommend it. There are two -> flavors, though - 1542C and 1542CF - F for Fast. The original rev wasn't -> in spec for SCSI-2 Fast. There's an ECO (a wire and a capacitor) and -> new ROMs. -> -> -ethan -> -> -> -> __________________________________________________ -> Do You Yahoo!? -> Make a great connection at Yahoo! Personals. -> http://personals.yahoo.com -> From erd_6502 at yahoo.com Tue Oct 16 14:33:44 2001 From: erd_6502 at yahoo.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:46 2005 Subject: New aquisitions: PCjr (minus power supply) and Amstrad PC 6400 In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20011016193344.53911.qmail@web20110.mail.yahoo.com> --- Chris wrote: > >How much should a PCjr PSU run me? To make this perfectly clear, I need the external 110VAC to 16.7VAC part, not the internal AC->DC part. Thanks for looking, -ethan __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Make a great connection at Yahoo! Personals. http://personals.yahoo.com From mikeford at socal.rr.com Tue Oct 16 14:24:36 2001 From: mikeford at socal.rr.com (Mike Ford) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:46 2005 Subject: looking for documentation for 1963 minuteman missile computer In-Reply-To: References: <3.0.2.32.20011015221925.01c950d8@obregon.multi.net.co> Message-ID: >> A capacitor bank? Is this to ensure homogeneity in a >> compression w. standard explosives triggering scheme? >> >Actually, I was thinking the caps would be required to fire the ignitors >from a portable power source. However, since I'm not a nuclear weapons >designer or an explosives expert, I'm making a guess on function based >upon what I've read and seen on shows that documented the original >construction of Fat Man. :) According to at least one movie I watched the part that is critical are some special triacs so that each charge can be detonated within a fairly tight time window. From mikeford at socal.rr.com Tue Oct 16 14:36:53 2001 From: mikeford at socal.rr.com (Mike Ford) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:46 2005 Subject: OT - was Re: ArcNet and the Pursuit of Multiple Topologies In-Reply-To: References: <3BCBC5BD.D0CA67C8@gorge.net> Message-ID: >America's exemplary educational system rears its ugly head. > >> WAKE UP, the party is over! > >Wake up, indeed. I like the diversity of the world, with the opportunity to look at various cultures and political systems with the results easy to compare. Its, its like running all the different kinds of networks. ;) From vcf at vintage.org Tue Oct 16 14:38:19 2001 From: vcf at vintage.org (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:46 2005 Subject: Looking for 1990s manuals/software Message-ID: I need the following software packages for a project I'm working on: Aldus Freehand 2.0 Aldus Freehand 3.0 Adobe After Effects 3.0 Macromedia Sound Edit 16 1.0 I would prefer the whole software package but at a minimum I need the manuals. Please contact me directly at if you've got them. Thanks! Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org From red at bears.org Tue Oct 16 14:54:38 2001 From: red at bears.org (r. 'bear' stricklin) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:46 2005 Subject: RS6000 7012-320H In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Tue, 16 Oct 2001, One Without Reason wrote: > OS/2 JFS is AIX JFS. They are the same. When did OS/2 start supporting JFS? It was still all HPFS as of Warp 3.0 ok r. From geneb at deltasoft.com Tue Oct 16 15:39:32 2001 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (Gene Buckle) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:46 2005 Subject: looking for documentation for 1963 minuteman missile computer In-Reply-To: Message-ID: > >> A capacitor bank? Is this to ensure homogeneity in a > >> compression w. standard explosives triggering scheme? > >> > >Actually, I was thinking the caps would be required to fire the ignitors > >from a portable power source. However, since I'm not a nuclear weapons > >designer or an explosives expert, I'm making a guess on function based > >upon what I've read and seen on shows that documented the original > >construction of Fat Man. :) > > According to at least one movie I watched the part that is critical are > some special triacs so that each charge can be detonated within a fairly > tight time window. > Klystron(?) I might be wrong though. I keep thinking it begins with a "K". For the gun type, all bets are off - it's a _much_ simpler design. I wonder what kind of yeild you'd get using a .50 diameter bullet against a 1.00 diameter target. (inches) Damn. I'm in the wrong business. :) g. From rhblakeman at kih.net Tue Oct 16 15:33:08 2001 From: rhblakeman at kih.net (Russ Blakeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:46 2005 Subject: New aquisitions: PCjr (minus power supply) and Amstrad PC 6400 In-Reply-To: <20011016193344.53911.qmail@web20110.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Ethan, what kind of connector does the external have? I have some Eltron 120VAC to 14VAC (they put out a little more on a meter) that have the tubular "coaxial" connector on the end. You're welcome to one for shipping (about 4 or 5 lbs). -> -----Original Message----- -> From: owner-classiccmp@classiccmp.org -> [mailto:owner-classiccmp@classiccmp.org]On Behalf Of Ethan Dicks -> Sent: Tuesday, October 16, 2001 2:34 PM -> To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org -> Subject: Re: New aquisitions: PCjr (minus power supply) and Amstrad PC -> 6400 -> -> -> -> --- Chris wrote: -> > >How much should a PCjr PSU run me? -> -> To make this perfectly clear, I need the external 110VAC to 16.7VAC -> part, not the internal AC->DC part. -> -> Thanks for looking, -> -> -ethan -> -> -> -> __________________________________________________ -> Do You Yahoo!? -> Make a great connection at Yahoo! Personals. -> http://personals.yahoo.com -> From mcguire at neurotica.com Tue Oct 16 15:44:34 2001 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:46 2005 Subject: looking for documentation for 1963 minuteman missile computer In-Reply-To: RE: looking for documentation for 1963 minuteman missile computer (Gene Buckle) References: Message-ID: <15308.39986.842431.81465@phaduka.neurotica.com> On October 16, Gene Buckle wrote: > > According to at least one movie I watched the part that is critical are > > some special triacs so that each charge can be detonated within a fairly > > tight time window. > > Klystron(?) I might be wrong though. I keep thinking it begins with a > "K". For the gun type, all bets are off - it's a _much_ simpler design. That would be "krytron". A Klystron is a microwave oscillator tube. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Laurel, MD From vance at ikickass.org Tue Oct 16 15:48:15 2001 From: vance at ikickass.org (One Without Reason) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:46 2005 Subject: RS6000 7012-320H In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Tue, 16 Oct 2001, r. 'bear' stricklin wrote: > On Tue, 16 Oct 2001, One Without Reason wrote: > > > OS/2 JFS is AIX JFS. They are the same. > > When did OS/2 start supporting JFS? It was still all HPFS as of Warp 3.0 OS/2 can't boot from JFS. It can only boot from FAT or HPFS. However, there was an add-on released by IBM that allows OS/2 to use JFS partitions. Also, IBM Warp Server for eBusiness (basically Warp Server 5, based on OS/2 Warp 4. Warp Server 4 was based on Warp Connect 3.) supports JFS out of the box. Needless to say, eComStation supports JFS. Peace... Sridhar From DAW at yalepress3.unipress.yale.edu Tue Oct 16 15:57:34 2001 From: DAW at yalepress3.unipress.yale.edu (David Woyciesjes) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:46 2005 Subject: Collections vs. accumulations, was Re: How many collectors? Message-ID: <9011A52E011ED311B4280004AC1BA61501467185@yalepress3.unipress.yale.edu> For me, There is only one criteria for collecting - does it pique my interest in some way? If it does, I'll add it to my classic computer collection, and proceed to use it, for something... :-) --- David A Woyciesjes --- C & IS Support Specialist --- Yale University Press --- mailto:david.woyciesjes@yale.edu --- (203) 432-0953 --- ICQ # - 905818 ! -----Original Message----- ! From: Hans Franke [mailto:Hans.Franke@mch20.sbs.de] ! Sent: Tuesday, October 16, 2001 3:10 PM ! To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org ! Subject: Re: Collections vs. accumulations, was Re: How many ! collectors? ! ! ! > >Vintage computer collecting is really no different from ! many other forms of ! > >collecting, its simply less common. ! ! > >Vintage car buffs clearly are more advanced in their ! restoration and repair ! ! > >Firearms collecting (in the USA) is probably the most ! similar form of ! ! > >In all these forms of collecting, as well as stamps, ! coins, and any antiques, ! ! > Two basic types of collector, those who assemble sets of ! items of value, ! > whose value is enhanced by completeness of the set, and ! those who collect ! > examples of fine craftsmanship and items of special merit ! compared to there ! > contemporaries. Most of my favorite systems I would be collecting ! > regardless if they are rare or common. Things I hunt down ! mostly because ! > they are rare, often prove much less satisfying to own than ! to look for. ! ! Well, I still go for a variation of Murphey's law, which I found ! to fit at least my experiance: ! ! As soon as you aquired someting you belive to be truly rate and ! unique, A second incarnation will popup close thereafter. ! ! And as a bylaw it's stated: ! ! The price asked for the second item is as lower as more you did ! spend on the first. ! ! I got again the proof right after I returned last week: ! ! This summer I found a original tool box for a BF 109 figher ! (basicly a big wooden chest), and I payed a premium to haul ! it home ... now a good friend of mine, which I was teasing ! with my find literaly stumbeled across exact the same chest ! in an old basement - and got it for free! ! ! Well. ! ! Gruss ! H. ! ! -- ! VCF Europa 3.0 am 27./28. April 2002 in Muenchen ! http://www.vcfe.org/ ! From mythtech at Mac.com Tue Oct 16 15:56:50 2001 From: mythtech at Mac.com (Chris) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:46 2005 Subject: New aquisitions: PCjr (minus power supply) and Amstrad PC 6400 Message-ID: >To make this perfectly clear, I need the external 110VAC to 16.7VAC >part, not the internal AC->DC part. well, it has been a while since I looked at one, but if I understand you, you want the big black external brick that goes between house current and a small round power plug on the PCjr... right? That is what I think I have one or two of still kicking around. The one I was picturing in my mind (and why I was thinking of an odd right angle plug), was a power brick to an old HP Deskwriter... I realized that about an hour ago, when I kicked the HP brick that was sitting on my floor. Now, the problem is, I might have been thinking of the HP brick when I was thinking I might have a PCjr power brick... but I will still look, just to make sure. (If I have a PCjr one, I know where it would be, it is just a matter of getting to it) -chris From dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com Tue Oct 16 15:56:25 2001 From: dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com (Douglas Quebbeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:46 2005 Subject: SCSI problems Message-ID: <7A9BACCEF0171D4FB77019F5104CDD372257E9@jeffserver.tegjeff.com> > Not to mention that you can't get a refund, you pay $5 or $6 to get in > whether you buy or not, and you may never see the same vendore ever again. > Most "new" stuff are factory seconds/refurbs and they don't tell you that > the warranty doesn't apply (saw one guy pulling the "refurb" stickers off > boxes at one iI went to in Louisville last year) Not all of the vendors are > crooks but there sure is a high percentage. Well, I bought a membership and expensed it out to $CURRENT_EMPLOYER, and they pay for the parking too... but generally you'd be right. There is one motherboard seller selling refurbs, clearly marked, and ditto as maybe or maybe not functional. But a few things do carry a warranty, and I see the same faces and company names almost every time (especially the non-hardware guys like Hacker Hut). At least 50% of the vendors are local and have storefront operations. Russ, are you in Fort Knox? I see you mention the area from time to time, we should get together sometime for a pizza at Impellizeri's... -dq From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Oct 16 15:43:28 2001 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:46 2005 Subject: 74170F - 4x4 "register file" - what's it good for? In-Reply-To: <20011016164117.51750.qmail@web20105.mail.yahoo.com> from "Ethan Dicks" at Oct 16, 1 09:41:17 am Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1616 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20011016/7765679f/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Oct 16 15:49:46 2001 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:46 2005 Subject: New aquisitions: PCjr (minus power supply) and Amstrad PC 6400 In-Reply-To: <20011016171845.52249.qmail@web20103.mail.yahoo.com> from "Ethan Dicks" at Oct 16, 1 10:18:45 am Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1234 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20011016/38e679dc/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Oct 16 13:44:39 2001 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:47 2005 Subject: Dark Tower - any internals info out there? In-Reply-To: <20011016162346.43849.qmail@web20103.mail.yahoo.com> from "Ethan Dicks" at Oct 16, 1 09:23:46 am Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 2310 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20011016/2e8e2051/attachment.ksh From ghldbrd at ccp.com Tue Oct 16 16:17:14 2001 From: ghldbrd at ccp.com (Gary Hildebrand) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:47 2005 Subject: SCSI problems References: Message-ID: <3BCCA3DA.98870F28@ccp.com> Russ Blakeman wrote: > > If his Seagtes are ST410800N like mine they are SCSI 2 fast and I have had > them on a non-fast controller but I did get sector errors until I did a low > level format. They still didn't work right until I put them on the 2740 > which does the fast comm scheme. > Well that is the drive he is using, and that may be the answer. I have the same drive on my Linux box with a 2940UW card and it works just fine. Gary Hildebrand From geneb at deltasoft.com Tue Oct 16 16:43:28 2001 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (Gene Buckle) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:47 2005 Subject: looking for documentation for 1963 minuteman missile computer In-Reply-To: <15308.39986.842431.81465@phaduka.neurotica.com> Message-ID: > On October 16, Gene Buckle wrote: > > > According to at least one movie I watched the part that is critical are > > > some special triacs so that each charge can be detonated within a fairly > > > tight time window. > > > > Klystron(?) I might be wrong though. I keep thinking it begins with a > > "K". For the gun type, all bets are off - it's a _much_ simpler design. > > That would be "krytron". A Klystron is a microwave oscillator tube. > You're right. I was thinking "Kryton", but that's a neurotic robot on Red Dwarf. :) g. From erd_6502 at yahoo.com Tue Oct 16 16:47:00 2001 From: erd_6502 at yahoo.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:47 2005 Subject: New aquisitions: PCjr (minus power supply) and Amstrad PC 6400 In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20011016214700.60114.qmail@web20109.mail.yahoo.com> --- Tony Duell wrote: > [...] > > > a nearly complete PCjr ...no PSU). > > To buy or to build? My PCjr was also missing the power supply when I got > it, so I had to make one. I did think of that. It's obviously not complicated. > If you also want to build one, I can tell you that it's about 17V AC, at > about 50VA-100VA (so say about 3A-5A maximum). The outside 2 pins on the > power connector are the AC inputs, the middle one is earth ground (and is > _not_ connected to a centre tap on the transformer winding, no matter > what some ancient posts here said). Perfect. Just what I would need to know to make one. > You can make a PSU...connector... by cutting down a disk drive power > socket) I wasn't sure the pins on the back of the PCjr were the right size for that (there are a couple diameters of Molex pins), but I could try it. It wouldn't be as nice as a molded connector, but it would work. > I assume you have the PSU board that fits inside the PCjr (it has the > power connector and switch on the back edge). I have that part. The innards are intact. The only thing missing was a plastic divider between one of the sets of pins on the back (it was broken off and hanging by a sliver when I picked up the unit). Hardly catastrophic. I am now debating upgrading the sidecar from 128K to 512K (it involves removing 16 x 4164 chips, adding low-profile sockets and 16 x 41256 DRAMs and moving a jumper). If I ever intend to use this, I'll probably do it. If I don't, I can spend the time elsewhere. I have plenty of chips. The part I thought was funny was that it's essentially the same core circuit as the COMBOARD-II - a 74S409, a fist-full of DRAM and some 33Ohm resistors on the CAS and RAS lines (it took our engineers a bit of work to realize they needed the in-line resistors to dampen the lines from ringing and undershoot) I still have multiple kilograms of 74S409 chips if anyone wants to attempt a classic DRAM design. It would even work with 256K 30-pin SIMMs, so you don't need to layout a board with DIPs... Even our final design for the VAXBI used it, but with 44256 chips instead of 41256 chips to save space. -ethan __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Make a great connection at Yahoo! Personals. http://personals.yahoo.com From erd_6502 at yahoo.com Tue Oct 16 16:53:20 2001 From: erd_6502 at yahoo.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:47 2005 Subject: IIgs using hard disk 20 In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20011016215320.43307.qmail@web20104.mail.yahoo.com> --- "r. 'bear' stricklin" wrote: > On Tue, 16 Oct 2001, Derek Peschel wrote: > > > Hmm, I was sure it was the floppy port (which I believe is a 25-pin > > connector > > Nope, it's a 19 pin D-sub, which makes it physically compatible with the > NeXT monochrome display connector. Don't plug a Macintosh floppy drive > into the NeXT though, unless you want to start a fire. (; Is this the voice of experience? Which lights up, the NeXT or the floppy drive? -ethan __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Make a great connection at Yahoo! Personals. http://personals.yahoo.com From erd_6502 at yahoo.com Tue Oct 16 16:59:41 2001 From: erd_6502 at yahoo.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:47 2005 Subject: Dark Tower - any internals info out there? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20011016215941.88421.qmail@web20102.mail.yahoo.com> --- Tony Duell wrote: > > > In my (limited) experience, most electronic toy/games from that time > > > frame contain a mask-programmed microcontroller. Normally a > > > TMS1000-series device. > > > Well, as I said 'limited experience'. I didn't play electronic games (I > still don't) -- I prefered hacking electronics. On the other hand, most > of the games owned by other children at school ended up on my bench to > have battery leads resoldered, LEDs replaced, and so on. Kids never gave me stuff to fix and return... I got broken stuff and fixed it if I could. Learned more than I fixed. :-) > Another possibilty is an in-circuit emulator, a box with a cable > that plugs in place of the mask-programmed IC, and which contains enough > logic (either as TTL or as custom chips, possibly modified versions of > the chip you are emulating) to simulate the chip at full speed, and with > RAM as the program store. Normally there's a serial port to connect to a > host computer to download code, set breakpoints, examine internal > registers and so on. ICE boxes are not cheap, but they are rather fun to > play with if you ever come across one. I have an ICE for the 68000 - my former employers paid about $20K for it. It's a big hoot to play with - stores 4096 bus acesses and traces a few lines if you connect extra probes. Mine was made by Northwest Instruments. We got it with an original 5-slot PC (5150) to talk to the box with the RAM, etc., in it. Still have the whole shootin' match, 10Mb add-in drive and all (we put that in later when we got tired of running off of floppies and it was <$500). I've found some interesting hardware bugs with it, like a 68K prototype with UDS and LDS swapped by mistake - makes byte operations all squirrelly. -ethan __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Make a great connection at Yahoo! Personals. http://personals.yahoo.com From erd_6502 at yahoo.com Tue Oct 16 17:07:08 2001 From: erd_6502 at yahoo.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:47 2005 Subject: ArcNet and the Pursuit of Multiple Topologies In-Reply-To: <10110131134.ZM11125@mindy.dunnington.u-net.com> Message-ID: <20011016220708.75757.qmail@web20110.mail.yahoo.com> --- Pete Turnbull wrote: > I'd be wary of running Localtalk over a cable carying a phone or Ethernet > signal. Again, it might work, but it will probably generate interference > which might be hard to track down -- I write from experience[1]. When I installed PhoneNet stuff into my mother's all-Mac shop, it specifically uses the yellow-black pair of standard (US) phone wiring and the documentation explicitly shows it as such. They even had a sort-of passive hub for your wiring closet to collate all the black-yellow pairs for a larger (floor-sized as opposed to room-sized) network. We had six Macs and one LaserWriter on the same floor of a smallish retail establishment, so it wasn't a problem. I can see networks near the edge of their physical spec falling off a cliff, though. -ethan __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Make a great connection at Yahoo! Personals. http://personals.yahoo.com From technos at nerdland.org Mon Oct 15 17:48:29 2001 From: technos at nerdland.org (Jim Tuck) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:47 2005 Subject: Collections vs. accumulations, was Re: How many collectors? Message-ID: <01C155A9.FB30FC10.technos@nerdland.org> > Well, I still go for a variation of Murphey's law, which I found > to fit at least my experiance: > > As soon as you aquired someting you belive to be truly rate and > unique, A second incarnation will popup close thereafter. > > And as a bylaw it's stated: > > The price asked for the second item is as lower as more you did > spend on the first. > I always refer to it as the Law of Affinity; I saw it printed in a WWII collectors catalogue in the 80's and it stuck Objects have an affinity for each other equivalent to (5/number you have seen)^(price) The corrolary runs; After the first object, all subsequent objects have a maximum price of (price you last paid/(number you own +1)) From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Oct 16 16:27:22 2001 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:47 2005 Subject: Dark Tower Pics In-Reply-To: from "Chris" at Oct 16, 1 02:14:43 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 279 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20011016/e3f4c8d9/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Oct 16 16:30:29 2001 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:47 2005 Subject: New aquisitions: PCjr (minus power supply) and Amstrad PC 6400 In-Reply-To: from "Chris" at Oct 16, 1 02:48:04 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 467 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20011016/7cdb906e/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Oct 16 16:32:26 2001 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:47 2005 Subject: IIgs using hard disk 20 In-Reply-To: from "r. 'bear' stricklin" at Oct 16, 1 03:11:15 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 504 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20011016/5944eaf7/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Oct 16 16:33:54 2001 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:47 2005 Subject: looking for documentation for 1963 minuteman missile computer In-Reply-To: from "Mike Ford" at Oct 16, 1 12:24:36 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 281 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20011016/8ca08901/attachment.ksh From red at bears.org Tue Oct 16 17:51:38 2001 From: red at bears.org (r. 'bear' stricklin) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:47 2005 Subject: IIgs using hard disk 20 In-Reply-To: <20011016215320.43307.qmail@web20104.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: On Tue, 16 Oct 2001, Ethan Dicks wrote: > > Nope, it's a 19 pin D-sub, which makes it physically compatible with the > > NeXT monochrome display connector. Don't plug a Macintosh floppy drive > > into the NeXT though, unless you want to start a fire. (; > > Is this the voice of experience? Oh, good heavens, no. I can't imagine what anybody might think to accomplish by doing so... > Which lights up, the NeXT or the floppy drive? It'd be the NeXT, since the drive would short out (via signal ground) the +12V rail, the -12V rail, the pixel clock, and one of the lower speed digital output ports. I don't think it would be a very happy situation for the NeXT, though the floppy drive could conceivably escape with minimal damage. Since I'm at it... NeXT Monitor Macintosh External Disk Drive ------------ ----------------------------- 1. +12 V Signal Ground 2. -12 V Signal Ground 3. Clock Signal Ground 4. Data Out Signal Ground 5. Data In -12 V 6. Power Switch + 5 V 7. NC +12 V 8. Vertical Sync +12 V 9. Horizontal Sync NC 10. Analogue Video PWM (motor speed control) 11. +12 V PH0 (command control line) 12. -12 V PH1 (command control line) 13. Signal Ground PH2 (command control line) 14. Signal Ground PH3 (command control line) 15. Signal Ground WRREQ/ (write request) 16. Signal Ground HDSEL (head select) 17. Signal Ground ENBL2/ (read line enable) 18. Signal Ground RD (read data) 19. Signal Ground WR (write data) So obviously PWM has no meaning for systems which use the 1.4 MB SuperDrive. On the Classic, this line was rerouted to the so-called "analogue board", where it was used to implement the software brightness control. ok r. From rhblakeman at kih.net Tue Oct 16 17:56:54 2001 From: rhblakeman at kih.net (Russ Blakeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:47 2005 Subject: SCSI problems In-Reply-To: <3BCCA3DA.98870F28@ccp.com> Message-ID: Oh yeah on the 2940UW they fly! I had mine originally in my IBM PS/2 9595-OPT pentium server with the fast/wide adapter and they worked great too but on the 16/32 non-wide controller they acted stupid. -> -----Original Message----- -> From: owner-classiccmp@classiccmp.org -> [mailto:owner-classiccmp@classiccmp.org]On Behalf Of Gary Hildebrand -> Sent: Tuesday, October 16, 2001 4:17 PM -> To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org -> Subject: Re: SCSI problems -> -> -> Russ Blakeman wrote: -> > -> > If his Seagtes are ST410800N like mine they are SCSI 2 fast -> and I have had -> > them on a non-fast controller but I did get sector errors -> until I did a low -> > level format. They still didn't work right until I put them on the 2740 -> > which does the fast comm scheme. -> > -> Well that is the drive he is using, and that may be the answer. I have -> the same drive on my Linux box with a 2940UW card and it works just -> fine. -> -> Gary Hildebrand -> From rhblakeman at kih.net Tue Oct 16 18:02:05 2001 From: rhblakeman at kih.net (Russ Blakeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:47 2005 Subject: looking for documentation for 1963 minuteman missile computer In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Yep, the Klystron is used in radar units. -> -----Original Message----- -> From: owner-classiccmp@classiccmp.org -> [mailto:owner-classiccmp@classiccmp.org]On Behalf Of Gene Buckle -> Sent: Tuesday, October 16, 2001 4:43 PM -> To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org -> Subject: RE: looking for documentation for 1963 minuteman missile -> computer -> -> -> > On October 16, Gene Buckle wrote: -> > > > According to at least one movie I watched the part that is -> critical are -> > > > some special triacs so that each charge can be detonated -> within a fairly -> > > > tight time window. -> > > -> > > Klystron(?) I might be wrong though. I keep thinking it -> begins with a -> > > "K". For the gun type, all bets are off - it's a _much_ -> simpler design. -> > -> > That would be "krytron". A Klystron is a microwave oscillator tube. -> > -> You're right. I was thinking "Kryton", but that's a neurotic -> robot on Red -> Dwarf. :) -> -> g. -> -> -> From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Oct 16 17:45:26 2001 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:47 2005 Subject: New aquisitions: PCjr (minus power supply) and Amstrad PC 6400 In-Reply-To: <20011016214700.60114.qmail@web20109.mail.yahoo.com> from "Ethan Dicks" at Oct 16, 1 02:47:00 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1325 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20011016/46867210/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Oct 16 17:48:23 2001 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:47 2005 Subject: Dark Tower - any internals info out there? In-Reply-To: <20011016215941.88421.qmail@web20102.mail.yahoo.com> from "Ethan Dicks" at Oct 16, 1 02:59:41 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 649 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20011016/e5fc58e2/attachment.ksh From cfandt at netsync.net Tue Oct 16 18:24:21 2001 From: cfandt at netsync.net (Christian Fandt) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:47 2005 Subject: Fwd: [GreenKeys] Need help in the Denver area In-Reply-To: <3BC91E38.7217CA41@verizon.net> References: <4.3.2.7.0.20011012182347.02220e90@pc> Message-ID: <4.1.20011016190945.00b40cc0@206.231.8.2> Upon the date 01:10 AM 10/14/01 -0400, Jan Koller said something like: > > >How do you break both rear springs? Massive overloading? >If that's the case, watch out, the fines are stiff. > > >If it's not overloaded, why won't U-Haul give you a replacement >truck? Back it up to the other, transfer the load, get on your >way, and let U-Haul deal with their broken equipment? > > >But if you did overload it, I can understand your reluctance >to call them. Umm, yeah, I could say there may be reluctance at first to call based on my take of the load. Eric stopped and stayed at our house in order to pick up a hard-to-find Teletype Magnetic Tape Terminal destined for the NADCOMM museum down near San Diego. I must say that there was a little room left on the floor of the truck after we loaded the boxed-up MTT just as he was about to leave. I'm glad it was early in the AM so I was still sleepy and had to hop in the car for work else I'd be drooling over some nice DEC items. More hefty early TTY gear was picked up near Chicago on its way to the Left Coast for the museum and others. That's what we think told the springs to let go out in Denver. Truck got fixed. He's likely at home now. Don hasn't emailed me with any negative news again since the 7th. Not known yet if Eric got hollered at by UHaul. Regards, Chris -- -- Christian Fandt, Electronic/Electrical Historian Jamestown, NY USA cfandt@netsync.net Member of Antique Wireless Association URL: http://www.antiquewireless.org/ From mikeford at socal.rr.com Tue Oct 16 18:28:44 2001 From: mikeford at socal.rr.com (Mike Ford) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:47 2005 Subject: Advice/book on installing TOPS network? In-Reply-To: <7A9BACCEF0171D4FB77019F5104CDD372257E1@jeffserver.tegjeff.com> Message-ID: I just recieved the happy news that after 10 days in the postal system my 2 to 3 day delivery package of TOPS cards arrived at its destination. The buyer really wants to setup a TOPS network, and the info I have is pretty scanty, anybody know of some good books to look at, or interested in doing the install near Bronxville, NY? (I did send along a fair selection of software from early TOPS to CopsTalk). From pete at dunnington.u-net.com Tue Oct 16 18:40:36 2001 From: pete at dunnington.u-net.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:47 2005 Subject: ArcNet and the Pursuit of Multiple Topologies In-Reply-To: Douglas Quebbeman "RE: ArcNet and the Pursuit of Multiple Topologies" (Oct 16, 9:33) References: <7A9BACCEF0171D4FB77019F5104CDD372257DE@jeffserver.tegjeff.com> Message-ID: <10110170040.ZM13705@mindy.dunnington.u-net.com> On Oct 16, 9:33, Douglas Quebbeman wrote: > > Now I'm thinking that the "T" in "10BaseT", "100BaseT4", etc. and the T in > > the line capacities "T-1", "T-2", etc. are the same thing. > > Is that true? > > I thought the 'T' in 'T1' stood for "trunk", as in trunk line... That seems very likely, given that it was invented by AT&T in the late 50's/early 60's. I'm fairly sure that's what they used the technology for originally. -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager University of York From geoffr at zipcon.net Tue Oct 16 18:41:38 2001 From: geoffr at zipcon.net (Geoff Reed) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:47 2005 Subject: IIgs using hard disk 20 In-Reply-To: <9011A52E011ED311B4280004AC1BA61501467177@yalepress3.unipre ss.yale.edu> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20011016164126.023b6ec0@mail.zipcon.net> Apple II SCSI card :) At 11:21 AM 10/16/01 -0400, you wrote: >! From: Louis Schulman [mailto:louiss@gate.net] >! >! Won't work, simply because the floppy port on the GS doesn't >! have the firmware to support the HD20, while >! the early Macs did. But there are many better hard drive >! options for a GS, anyway. >! >! Louis >! >! On Mon, 15 Oct 2001 16:39:02 -0400, Chris wrote: >! >! #Does anyone know if an Apple IIgs can use an old Macintosh >! #Hard Disk 20. The Mac HD is NOT scsi, but rather uses the >! #disk drive port on a Mac. It ... > >Louis --- > Umm, okay, what are those other HDD options? I'm curious... :-) > >--- David A Woyciesjes >--- C & IS Support Specialist >--- Yale University Press >--- mailto:david.woyciesjes@yale.edu >--- (203) 432-0953 >--- ICQ # - 905818 From rhblakeman at kih.net Tue Oct 16 18:46:32 2001 From: rhblakeman at kih.net (Russ Blakeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:47 2005 Subject: New aquisitions: PCjr (minus power supply) and Amstrad PC 6400 In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Sounds like a 3 pin Molex like appliances use, which is a 3 pin version of the 4 pin Molex used on hard drive power in PCs. -> -----Original Message----- -> From: owner-classiccmp@classiccmp.org -> [mailto:owner-classiccmp@classiccmp.org]On Behalf Of Tony Duell -> Sent: Tuesday, October 16, 2001 4:30 PM -> To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org -> Subject: Re: New aquisitions: PCjr (minus power supply) and Amstrad PC -> 6400 -> -> -> [PCjr power brick] -> > yourself... although they do have an odd right angle connector -> IIRC and -> > that might prove hard to find/replicate) -> -> The PCjr power connector is actually a standard 3 pin Mate-n-Lock one. I -> think the exact part is still available. If not (or you can't be -> bothered -> to order it :-)), then it's possible to cut down a disk drive power -> connector (the 4 pin 0.2" type used on 5.25" floppies, most 3.5" and -> 5.25" winchesters, etc) to fit. -> -> -tony -> From geoffr at zipcon.net Tue Oct 16 19:04:32 2001 From: geoffr at zipcon.net (Geoff Reed) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:47 2005 Subject: SCSI problems In-Reply-To: References: <3BCCA3DA.98870F28@ccp.com> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20011016170409.02ff9800@mail.zipcon.net> Hang 'em off a 154xCF and they'd fly also... At 05:56 PM 10/16/01 -0500, you wrote: >Oh yeah on the 2940UW they fly! I had mine originally in my IBM PS/2 >9595-OPT pentium server with the fast/wide adapter and they worked great too >but on the 16/32 non-wide controller they acted stupid. From jhellige at earthlink.net Tue Oct 16 19:14:28 2001 From: jhellige at earthlink.net (Jeff Hellige) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:47 2005 Subject: IIgs using hard disk 20 In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20011016164126.023b6ec0@mail.zipcon.net> References: <5.1.0.14.2.20011016164126.023b6ec0@mail.zipcon.net> Message-ID: >Apple II SCSI card :) I forget the name and manufacturer at the moment, but there was also a 'hardcard' that put both the drive and controller inside the IIgs in, I believe, the slot closest to the PSU. It's been a while since I saw one of these though. Jeff -- Home of the TRS-80 Model 2000 FAQ File http://www.cchaven.com http://www.geocities.com/siliconvalley/lakes/6757 From optimus at canit.se Tue Oct 16 20:38:23 2001 From: optimus at canit.se (Iggy Drougge) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:47 2005 Subject: looking for documentation for 1963 minuteman missile computer In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <674.690T1150T1584927optimus@canit.se> Gene Buckle skrev: >> On October 16, Gene Buckle wrote: >> > >> > Klystron(?) I might be wrong though. I keep thinking it begins with a >> > "K". For the gun type, all bets are off - it's a _much_ simpler design. >> >> That would be "krytron". A Klystron is a microwave oscillator tube. >> >You're right. I was thinking "Kryton", but that's a neurotic robot on Red >Dwarf. :) Isn't that Kryten? ^_- -- En ligne avec Thor 2.6a. - Lupin! Vart ska du? - Tar v?gen ?ver berget f?ljer gr?nsen s? kommer vi till havet. - Det ?r ju mer ?n 100 km. - Det ?r v?l ingenting. Jag tillh?r v?rldseliten jag. Lupin III den otrolige (Lupin III vs. fukusei ningen), TMS 1978 From paul at orchard.wccnet.org Tue Oct 16 19:58:54 2001 From: paul at orchard.wccnet.org (Paul R. Santa-Maria) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:47 2005 Subject: AIM65 items in Toronto Message-ID: M H Stein: I asked about possible 6502 and 68000 items you mentioned on this list, but I never heard a reply from you. Is the AIM65 stuff still available? Paul R. Santa-Maria Monroe, Michigan USA From jhellige at earthlink.net Tue Oct 16 20:25:45 2001 From: jhellige at earthlink.net (Jeff Hellige) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:47 2005 Subject: looking for documentation for 1963 minuteman missile computer In-Reply-To: <674.690T1150T1584927optimus@canit.se> References: <674.690T1150T1584927optimus@canit.se> Message-ID: >Gene Buckle skrev: > >>> On October 16, Gene Buckle wrote: >>> > >>> > Klystron(?) I might be wrong though. I keep thinking it begins with a >>> > "K". For the gun type, all bets are off - it's a _much_ simpler design. >>> >>> That would be "krytron". A Klystron is a microwave oscillator tube. >>> >>You're right. I was thinking "Kryton", but that's a neurotic robot on Red >>Dwarf. :) > >Isn't that Kryten? ^_- Kryten is correct and it was a cleaning robot. I happen to have two of the 'Red Dwarf' series books here. 'Red Dwarf: Better Than Life' is one of my favorite sci-fi books, alongside '2001' and Heinlein's 'Friday' and 'Have Spacesuit, Will Travel'. Jeff -- Home of the TRS-80 Model 2000 FAQ File http://www.cchaven.com http://www.geocities.com/siliconvalley/lakes/6757 From vance at ikickass.org Tue Oct 16 20:28:53 2001 From: vance at ikickass.org (One Without Reason) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:47 2005 Subject: Advice/book on installing TOPS network? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: I don't know anything about TOPS, but when you do it, I would like to come down and watch. Lend a hand maybe. Peace... Sridhar On Tue, 16 Oct 2001, Mike Ford wrote: > I just recieved the happy news that after 10 days in the postal system my 2 > to 3 day delivery package of TOPS cards arrived at its destination. The > buyer really wants to setup a TOPS network, and the info I have is pretty > scanty, anybody know of some good books to look at, or interested in doing > the install near Bronxville, NY? (I did send along a fair selection of > software from early TOPS to CopsTalk). > > From swtpc6800 at home.com Tue Oct 16 20:41:43 2001 From: swtpc6800 at home.com (Michael Holley) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:47 2005 Subject: New aquisitions: PCjr (minus power supply) and Amstrad PC 6400 References: <20011016171845.52249.qmail@web20103.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <005201c156ac$e08c76b0$9865fea9@downstairs> I have a copy of the PCjr Technical Reference Manual. I bought a PC-Jr for my brother years ago and got the Reference but never used it. "L@@K RARE computer book". On page 2-135 "The system power supply is a 33 watt, three voltage-level, two stage supply" Appendix D-1 Transformer Input: 110 Vac 60Hz Output: Pin 1 - 17Vac, Pin 2 - GND, Pin 3 -17 Vac I put scans of the internal Power Supply schematic and PCB here: http://members.home.net/swtpc6800/PC_JR/ Download them now before AtHome goes out of businness. ----------------------------------------------- Michael Holley holley@hyperlynx.com ----------------------------------------------- From korpela at ssl.berkeley.edu Tue Oct 16 20:50:55 2001 From: korpela at ssl.berkeley.edu (Eric J. Korpela) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:47 2005 Subject: looking for documentation for 1963 minuteman missile computer In-Reply-To: from Gene Buckle at "Oct 16, 2001 01:39:32 pm" Message-ID: <200110170150.SAA26112@ellie.ssl.berkeley.edu> > For the gun type, all bets are off - it's a _much_ simpler design. > > I wonder what kind of yeild you'd get using a .50 diameter bullet against > a 1.00 diameter target. (inches) The answer is 0. The ISTR that the critical radius for U235 is about 9 cm. For plutonium, the critical radius is about 5 cm. Plutonium doesn't work too well in the gun types, so you would tend to get a small but extremely messy explosion even with a critical assembly. There are tricks to getting the critical radius down to lower values... Eric From optimus at canit.se Tue Oct 16 21:28:44 2001 From: optimus at canit.se (Iggy Drougge) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:47 2005 Subject: IIgs using hard disk 20 In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <1183.690T2200T2085965optimus@canit.se> r. 'bear' stricklin skrev: >On Tue, 16 Oct 2001, Derek Peschel wrote: >> Hmm, I was sure it was the floppy port (which I believe is a 25-pin >> connector -- the same size as some serial connectors -- perhaps why you are >> thinking of the serial port?). >Nope, it's a 19 pin D-sub, which makes it physically compatible with the >NeXT monochrome display connector. Don't plug a Macintosh floppy drive >into the NeXT though, unless you want to start a fire. (; The Atari ST ACSI DMA connector is a D19 as well. BTW, D19s are terribly expensive! I had to shell out eighty crowns just for the connectors and the shells for my ACSI cable last week. Oh, the Atari Falcon video connector is a D19, too. >Tony, this is your cue to step in and tell us what it's actual designation >is, since it's clearly not a DA, a DB, DC, DD, or a DE. Last time we discussed it, I think someone dismissed the D19 (and the D23) as a pure bastard. -- En ligne avec Thor 2.6a. We have support for the PMAGC-B's on pmax right? That is a PixelVision based card right? I see Bt 463, that chip looks bigger than the 21164! Just looking at it makes me want to write an Xserver! Chris Tribo, NetBSD/pmax From mythtech at Mac.com Tue Oct 16 21:39:41 2001 From: mythtech at Mac.com (Chris) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:47 2005 Subject: ArcNet and the Pursuit of Multiple Topologies Message-ID: >When I installed PhoneNet stuff into my mother's all-Mac shop, it >specifically uses the yellow-black pair of standard (US) phone >wiring and the documentation explicitly shows it as such. They >even had a sort-of passive hub for your wiring closet to collate >all the black-yellow pairs for a larger (floor-sized as opposed to >room-sized) network. We had six Macs and one LaserWriter on the same >floor of a smallish retail establishment, so it wasn't a problem. >I can see networks near the edge of their physical spec falling off >a cliff, though. Yeah, phone net was designed with the idea that you would piggy back it over your existing phone wiring... the theory being that a standard house/business would be wired either all serial (one jack to the next) or in a star (all jacks coming back to a central punch block). Following this assumption, it was specifically designed to work over the unused pair (being yellow/black in standard station wiring). All PhoneNet REALLY cares about is having two wires from one box to either the next box, or to a central hub. It need not be twisted pair, and it need not be the yellow/black pair. Although, if you choose to use a different pair, either you need to make sure you wire it to the correct pins on the jack (and thus fake a y/b) or you will have to cut a custom wired flat cord as the boxes all expect the wires to be the outer two wires in an RJ-11. But there is nothing stopping you from using unused pairs in Ethernet and just use a custom flat cord (or break them out into their own jack). The single biggest problem with Phone net that I ran into was it was VERY picky over the wiring being correct. Unlike phones, you could not safely reverse pairs in a serial setup. Also, the fact that it expects there to be either serial wiring, or star wiring falls thru in most phone lines. And even depending on the unused pairs wasn't a surefire idea. In every Phone net system I installed, I was forced to do some degree of rewiring, or correcting the wiring. POTS phones are very forgiving to poor wiring, and many telco installers use that as an excuse to be lazy. In almost all POTS phone setups you will find some degree of "non spec", things like unused pairs not being connected, reversing pairs, mixing star and serial wiring, tapping mid line into a drop to extend for a new jack. Tapping was DEATH to phone net, it was the single worst thing you could do, as it caused things like ghosting (items showing up after they have been removed, or showing up more than once on the network), and random dropouts of networked devices. It also proved hard to track, as you almost had to physically trace every wire, looking for a tap. But all things considered, phone net was a much more econimical way of wiring a localtalk network. True localtalk cables were very expensive compared to cheap 2 pair phone cable, so even with rewiring, it still worked out to be the less expensive way to go. Even today, phone net works as a nice quick and dirty network when all you want is printer sharing. I keep a 25ft retractable cord and phonenet connectors connected to a Localtalk to Ethernet bridge. It lets me connect old Macs to the network (or my Newton) on the fly, and I can set it up anywhere in my office. When I am done, I just unhook the phonenet box, and let go, the retractable cord rewinds and pulls the box back to my hub shelf, where it hangs waiting for my next use. -chris From jrkeys at concentric.net Tue Oct 16 22:04:13 2001 From: jrkeys at concentric.net (John R. Keys Jr.) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:47 2005 Subject: Twiggy Find Message-ID: <022201c156b8$676aaca0$e5711fd1@default> I purchased a plastic bag mixed with new and used 5 1/4 floppy diskettes and inside the middle was one of the famous "Fileware" or Twiggy diskettes with it's sleeve used with the Lisa I. I could not believe my luck as I had just watched one of these go for almost $50 dollars on eBay for just one diskette awhile back. Now I just need to find a twiggy drive or better yet a Lisa I. :-) Yes I went back to the thrift store looking for more disk but no luck. The cost of the package was $1.40 for about 20 diskettes. From mythtech at Mac.com Tue Oct 16 21:51:45 2001 From: mythtech at Mac.com (Chris) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:47 2005 Subject: Dark Tower Pics Message-ID: >For the benefit of people like me with a text-only display, could you >post the markings on the ICs here, please... Sure thing... Largest (28 pin): MP7332-N1LL D 8131 4149 PHILIPPINES Medium (16 pin): TAIWAN 8114XM SN79910N SN75494N Small (8 pin): AC TL496CP MALAYSIA (and has 140 verticle down the pin 1 edge) I wrote everything on them, including country of origin, because I have NO idea what is important and what isn't (for all I know, different country origin chips have different designs). -chris From mythtech at Mac.com Tue Oct 16 21:58:08 2001 From: mythtech at Mac.com (Chris) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:47 2005 Subject: IIgs using hard disk 20 Message-ID: > I forget the name and manufacturer at the moment, but there >was also a 'hardcard' that put both the drive and controller inside >the IIgs in, I believe, the slot closest to the PSU. It's been a >while since I saw one of these though. Maybe the name escapes you, because it might have been "HardCard". I have two hard drives on a card. I know one is called "HardCard", I am not sure what the other is called. I have never been able to get them to work (but I didn't throw them out cause they were too cool). Interesting thought... I always tried to get them to work in PCs (ISA slot)... humm... I wonder if they went to my old Apple II+'s (is the slot the same? Although, I don't think they would have, as IIRC, they would be too tall, and they have the dust cover plate for a PC on the back, which just would have made no sense in an Apple II) -chris From mythtech at Mac.com Tue Oct 16 22:12:42 2001 From: mythtech at Mac.com (Chris) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:47 2005 Subject: New aquisitions: PCjr (minus power supply) and Amstrad PC 6400 Message-ID: >I have a copy of the PCjr Technical Reference Manual. Does that book give the pinout for the serial port? The dang PCjr uses screwy IBM square connectors. I had a need at one point to connect my PCjr to a serial terminal server, but I didn't have the pinouts to make an adaptor. Any other goodies in that book? (It was probably the book used when a guy built a few PCjr monitor adaptors to hook them up to CGA cards... I still have a few of the adaptors... someday I should right down their config in case I have to make a new one) -chris From donm at cts.com Tue Oct 16 22:55:56 2001 From: donm at cts.com (Don Maslin) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:47 2005 Subject: IIgs using hard disk 20 In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Tue, 16 Oct 2001, Chris wrote: > > I forget the name and manufacturer at the moment, but there > >was also a 'hardcard' that put both the drive and controller inside > >the IIgs in, I believe, the slot closest to the PSU. It's been a > >while since I saw one of these though. > > Maybe the name escapes you, because it might have been "HardCard". I have > two hard drives on a card. I know one is called "HardCard", I am not sure > what the other is called. I have never been able to get them to work (but > I didn't throw them out cause they were too cool). Interesting thought... It is difficult to imagine an Apple "Hardcard" since the PC version was a full slot piece. They were a product of Quantum, IIRC. Just seems too large for an Apple II configuration. - don > I always tried to get them to work in PCs (ISA slot)... humm... I wonder > if they went to my old Apple II+'s (is the slot the same? Although, I > don't think they would have, as IIRC, they would be too tall, and they > have the dust cover plate for a PC on the back, which just would have > made no sense in an Apple II) > > -chris > > > > From fernande at internet1.net Tue Oct 16 23:08:12 2001 From: fernande at internet1.net (Chad Fernandez) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:47 2005 Subject: SCSI problems References: Message-ID: <3BCD042C.2AB6D136@internet1.net> One thing I like about the A1 SuperComputer shows here in Michigan is that I do see the same vendors time and time again. Chad Fernandez Michigan, USA Russ Blakeman wrote: > > Not to mention that you can't get a refund, you pay $5 or $6 to get in > whether you buy or not, and you may never see the same vendore ever again. > Most "new" stuff are factory seconds/refurbs and they don't tell you that > the warranty doesn't apply (saw one guy pulling the "refurb" stickers off > boxes at one iI went to in Louisville last year) Not all of the vendors are > crooks but there sure is a high percentage. From swtpc6800 at home.com Tue Oct 16 23:35:10 2001 From: swtpc6800 at home.com (Michael Holley) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:47 2005 Subject: New aquisitions: PCjr (minus power supply) and Amstrad PC 6400 References: Message-ID: <00af01c156c5$1b368b30$9865fea9@downstairs> Download the serial pinouts at. http://members.home.net/swtpc6800/PC_JR/ The manual has the technical descriptions of base system and options, schematics and the BIOS listing. It is over 500 pages long. ----------------------------------------------- Michael Holley holley@hyperlynx.com ----------------------------------------------- ----- Original Message ----- From: "Chris" To: Sent: Tuesday, October 16, 2001 8:12 PM Subject: Re: New aquisitions: PCjr (minus power supply) and Amstrad PC 6400 > >I have a copy of the PCjr Technical Reference Manual. > > Does that book give the pinout for the serial port? The dang PCjr uses > screwy IBM square connectors. I had a need at one point to connect my > PCjr to a serial terminal server, but I didn't have the pinouts to make > an adaptor. > > Any other goodies in that book? (It was probably the book used when a guy > built a few PCjr monitor adaptors to hook them up to CGA cards... I still > have a few of the adaptors... someday I should right down their config in > case I have to make a new one) > > -chris > > > > From fernande at internet1.net Wed Oct 17 00:12:18 2001 From: fernande at internet1.net (Chad Fernandez) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:47 2005 Subject: IIgs using hard disk 20 References: Message-ID: <3BCD1332.6A6CDE4@internet1.net> They exist. Last I knew a company on the web was still selling them, full of software. Started with an A, but I don't remember the rest of the name :-( They have a laptop size IDE drive in them I think. Chad Fernandez Michigan, USA Don Maslin wrote: > It is difficult to imagine an Apple "Hardcard" since the PC version was > a full slot piece. They were a product of Quantum, IIRC. Just seems > too large for an Apple II configuration. > > - don From donm at cts.com Wed Oct 17 00:43:05 2001 From: donm at cts.com (Don Maslin) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:47 2005 Subject: IIgs using hard disk 20 In-Reply-To: <7A9BACCEF0171D4FB77019F5104CDD372257E1@jeffserver.tegjeff.com> Message-ID: On Tue, 16 Oct 2001, Douglas Quebbeman wrote: > > I have a card in my 512 which increases memory and gives a SCSI port. > > It's called a MacSnap by Dove computer, dated 1985. It actually consists of > > 2 cards. One contains the memory chips aand circuitry and the other has > > the SCSI socket and also 2 large chips labelled upper and lower ROMs. I'm > > even able to boot off the external HDD. > > Great product, I used mine with a Cutting Edge 30MB external drive > until the drive's piggyback OMTI SCSI <=> MFM adapter went south. > > Anyone know where I can get one of these tiny adapters? Doug, what size was the OMTI bridge controller? I have several of the 3.5" form factor. If that size, do you have the model number? - don > -dq > From mhstein at usa.net Wed Oct 17 01:40:12 2001 From: mhstein at usa.net (M H Stein) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:47 2005 Subject: Toshiba T300 - last call, Toronto area Message-ID: <01C156B5.6FD6C520@mse-d03> One gone, one awaiting its fate: T300 dual floppy PC semi-compatible, no monitor (but std RGB OK), spare KB, 2 sets of 3 manuals, 123 & dBII, diskettes & some tech info; also service info & schematics for T100. Good for converting 360 to/from 600 Kb diskettes. Headed for landfill if no interest. mike From mhstein at usa.net Wed Oct 17 01:42:40 2001 From: mhstein at usa.net (M H Stein) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:47 2005 Subject: Redactron WP Message-ID: <01C156B5.737066A0@mse-d03> Redactron dual mag card WP (with one card), schematic, no printer. Can I assume there's no interest and I can finally toss something without feeling guilty? mike From Antonio.Carlini at riverstonenet.com Wed Oct 17 02:04:52 2001 From: Antonio.Carlini at riverstonenet.com (Carlini, Antonio) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:47 2005 Subject: Dark Tower - any internals info out there? Message-ID: <3820E2042B6ED5118DC200D0B78EDC470661A3@exc-reo1> > I am pretty sure TI published a datasheet on the chip. It > gave at least > the pinout and the pin functions, it may have included the > instruction > set. I may hae some data on the chip in old TI databooks, I can check. The only reference within TI's own site (that I can find) is that the chip debuted in 1974. freetradezone has a two page sheet which has little technical information. It does say that software simulators were available for customer use as were hardware simulators. Antonio From kevin at xpuppy.freeserve.co.uk Wed Oct 17 02:26:25 2001 From: kevin at xpuppy.freeserve.co.uk (Kevin Murrell) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:47 2005 Subject: Looking for TC01 drawings/manual Message-ID: Can anyone point me to a scan of the DEC TC01 tape controller? This is the early dectape controller used with very early PDP8 machines at least. Kevin Murrell ------------- From Antonio.Carlini at riverstonenet.com Wed Oct 17 03:11:41 2001 From: Antonio.Carlini at riverstonenet.com (Carlini, Antonio) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:47 2005 Subject: Redactron WP Message-ID: <3820E2042B6ED5118DC200D0B78EDC470661A4@exc-reo1> > Redactron dual mag card WP (with one card), schematic, no > printer. Can I assume there's no interest and I can finally > toss something without feeling guilty? and >One gone, one awaiting its fate: T300 dual floppy PC semi-compatible, no monitor (but std >RGB OK), spare KB, 2 sets of 3 manuals, 123 & dBII, diskettes & some tech info; also >service info & schematics for T100. Good for converting 360 to/from 600 Kb diskettes. Hi, If there are no other (or nearer) takers for these items, could I have the tech manuals and schematics (and maybe diskettes?). I'll scan them if there is sufficient interest. Obviously I'll pay for shipping (surface mail). I'm in the UK otherwise I'd be interested in the hw too! Thanks Antonio carlini arcarlini@iee.org From Antonio.Carlini at riverstonenet.com Wed Oct 17 03:40:08 2001 From: Antonio.Carlini at riverstonenet.com (Carlini, Antonio) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:47 2005 Subject: Looking for TC01 drawings/manual Message-ID: <3820E2042B6ED5118DC200D0B78EDC470661A5@exc-reo1> > Can anyone point me to a scan of the DEC TC01 tape > controller? This is the > early dectape controller used with very early PDP8 machines at least. There is a maintenance manual here: http://www.spies.com/~aek/pdf/dec/pdp8/ And docs for a TC01 exerciser are here: http://www.pdp8.net/pdp8docs/maindec-08-ditca-a-d.tif Antonio From geoffr at zipcon.net Wed Oct 17 03:59:53 2001 From: geoffr at zipcon.net (Geoff Reed) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:47 2005 Subject: IIgs using hard disk 20 In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20011017015904.023d8380@mail.zipcon.net> Could it have Been a Plus Systems HardCard? I know that they did a PC hardcard, I don't know about an apple II version... they were acquired? by quantum many years ago From geoffr at zipcon.net Wed Oct 17 04:06:08 2001 From: geoffr at zipcon.net (Geoff Reed) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:48 2005 Subject: IIgs using hard disk 20 In-Reply-To: <3BCD1332.6A6CDE4@internet1.net> References: Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20011017020341.023d8240@mail.zipcon.net> http://www.allelec.com/ http://www.allelec.com/indexa2.html look for the Focus products at the bottom of the page :) At 01:12 AM 10/17/01 -0400, you wrote: >They exist. Last I knew a company on the web was still selling them, >full of software. Started with an A, but I don't remember the rest of >the name :-( > >They have a laptop size IDE drive in them I think. > >Chad Fernandez >Michigan, USA > >Don Maslin wrote: > > It is difficult to imagine an Apple "Hardcard" since the PC version was > > a full slot piece. They were a product of Quantum, IIRC. Just seems > > too large for an Apple II configuration. > > > > - don -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20011017/70b8d563/attachment.html From geoffr at zipcon.net Wed Oct 17 04:09:16 2001 From: geoffr at zipcon.net (Geoff Reed) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:48 2005 Subject: IIgs using hard disk 20 In-Reply-To: <3BCD1332.6A6CDE4@internet1.net> References: Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20011017020844.023db9e0@mail.zipcon.net> also check out http://bendele1-enterprises.freeyellow.com/page1.html This seller has Apple HiSpeed SCSI and CMS SCSI cards available for the AppleII series At 01:12 AM 10/17/01 -0400, you wrote: >They exist. Last I knew a company on the web was still selling them, >full of software. Started with an A, but I don't remember the rest of >the name :-( > >They have a laptop size IDE drive in them I think. > >Chad Fernandez >Michigan, USA > >Don Maslin wrote: > > It is difficult to imagine an Apple "Hardcard" since the PC version was > > a full slot piece. They were a product of Quantum, IIRC. Just seems > > too large for an Apple II configuration. > > > > - don From CAA007216 at mail.ono.es Wed Oct 17 04:06:24 2001 From: CAA007216 at mail.ono.es (Sergio Pedraja Cabo) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:48 2005 Subject: Toshiba T300 - last call, Toronto area Message-ID: <8e4270eb.70eb8e42@ono.com> Hello, Mike. I'm interested about the software, mainly. If the CPU is not heavy it could be send by mail, I think. Thanks ! Sergio Pedraja Santander Spain ----- Mensaje Original ----- Remitente: M H Stein Fecha: Mi?rcoles, Octubre 17, 2001 8:40 am Asunto: Toshiba T300 - last call, Toronto area > One gone, one awaiting its fate: T300 dual floppy PC semi- > compatible, no monitor (but std RGB OK), spare KB, 2 sets of 3 > manuals, 123 & dBII, diskettes & some tech info; also service info > & schematics for T100. Good for converting 360 to/from 600 Kb > diskettes. > Headed for landfill if no interest. > > mike > From CAA007216 at mail.ono.es Wed Oct 17 04:07:13 2001 From: CAA007216 at mail.ono.es (Sergio Pedraja Cabo) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:48 2005 Subject: Redactron WP Message-ID: <431d396b.396b431d@ono.com> Ahem... What is this thing ? :-) Sergio ----- Mensaje Original ----- Remitente: M H Stein Fecha: Mi?rcoles, Octubre 17, 2001 8:42 am Asunto: Redactron WP > Redactron dual mag card WP (with one card), schematic, no printer. > Can I assume there's no interest and I can finally toss something > without feeling guilty? > > mike > From mouch at imv.au.dk Wed Oct 17 08:42:22 2001 From: mouch at imv.au.dk (Jonas Mikkelsen) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:48 2005 Subject: epson Q150A , i need a hard disk :) Message-ID: <01101715422201.08351@pc161038> Hi I am Danish Ive got a epson portable Q150A just like you. the former owner had delted the BIOS, so I whanted to know if the floppies you got is the BIOS or diagnostic software ? - and if it is meybe i could get a copy The Harddisk in my coomputer is a: JVC HARD DISK DRIVE MODEL JD3824R00-1 20MB my regards Jonas MIkkelsen From dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com Wed Oct 17 07:12:35 2001 From: dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com (Douglas Quebbeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:48 2005 Subject: looking for documentation for 1963 minuteman missile compute r Message-ID: <7A9BACCEF0171D4FB77019F5104CDD372257EB@jeffserver.tegjeff.com> > Kryten is correct and it was a cleaning robot. I happen to > have two of the 'Red Dwarf' series books here. 'Red Dwarf: Better > Than Life' is one of my favorite sci-fi books, alongside '2001' and > Heinlein's 'Friday' and 'Have Spacesuit, Will Travel'. ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ Awesome book; the ever-present terminals in this future provide functions much like the Web does today. Quite visionary. I also think his vision of a fragmented United States will come to pass (many are ready for The Republic of California, but I dread the Midwest Kingdom). -dq From mythtech at Mac.com Wed Oct 17 07:14:34 2001 From: mythtech at Mac.com (Chris) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:48 2005 Subject: New aquisitions: PCjr (minus power supply) and Amstrad PC 6400 Message-ID: >Download the serial pinouts at. >http://members.home.net/swtpc6800/PC_JR/ Hey, thanks! >The manual has the technical descriptions of base system and options, >schematics and the BIOS listing. It is over 500 pages long. I'll have to keep an eye out for this book. -chris From dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com Wed Oct 17 07:15:54 2001 From: dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com (Douglas Quebbeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:48 2005 Subject: IIgs using hard disk 20 Message-ID: <7A9BACCEF0171D4FB77019F5104CDD372257EC@jeffserver.tegjeff.com> > > > Anyone know where I can get one of these tiny adapters? > > Doug, what size was the OMTI bridge controller? I have several of the > 3.5" form factor. If that size, do you have the model number? Yeah, they're 3.5 inch format, ISTR it had a Z-80 controller... 50-pin ribbon cable header at one end, one 34-pin control header and two 20-pin data headers at the other... I'll check the model number tonight, and get back to you tomorrow. -dq From SUPRDAVE at aol.com Wed Oct 17 07:30:21 2001 From: SUPRDAVE at aol.com (SUPRDAVE@aol.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:48 2005 Subject: IIgs using hard disk 20 Message-ID: <133.32b1e28.28fed3dd@aol.com> In a message dated 10/17/2001 5:10:07 AM Eastern Daylight Time, geoffr@zipcon.net writes: << Could it have Been a Plus Systems HardCard? I know that they did a PC hardcard, I don't know about an apple II version... they were acquired? by quantum many years ago >> Applied Engineering had an internal hard drive for the GS. I forgot what it was called though. From rhblakeman at kih.net Wed Oct 17 08:07:23 2001 From: rhblakeman at kih.net (Russ Blakeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:48 2005 Subject: SCSI problems In-Reply-To: <3BCD042C.2AB6D136@internet1.net> Message-ID: There have been a few regulars as well as a few local Louisville retialers selling off excess stock at the Marketpro one but most people don't know anyone there but still buy. I guess it's no worse than a blind bid on ebay but at least ebay insures most sales. -> -----Original Message----- -> From: owner-classiccmp@classiccmp.org -> [mailto:owner-classiccmp@classiccmp.org]On Behalf Of Chad Fernandez -> Sent: Tuesday, October 16, 2001 11:08 PM -> To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org -> Subject: Re: SCSI problems -> -> -> One thing I like about the A1 SuperComputer shows here in Michigan is -> that I do see the same vendors time and time again. -> -> Chad Fernandez -> Michigan, USA -> -> Russ Blakeman wrote: -> > -> > Not to mention that you can't get a refund, you pay $5 or $6 to get in -> > whether you buy or not, and you may never see the same vendore -> ever again. -> > Most "new" stuff are factory seconds/refurbs and they don't -> tell you that -> > the warranty doesn't apply (saw one guy pulling the "refurb" -> stickers off -> > boxes at one iI went to in Louisville last year) Not all of -> the vendors are -> > crooks but there sure is a high percentage. -> From bbrown at harper.cc.il.us Wed Oct 17 08:18:36 2001 From: bbrown at harper.cc.il.us (Bob Brown) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:48 2005 Subject: HP-UX items In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Actually, the h/w extensions CD is the replacement for the CORE INSTALL. With the set that is mentioned, someone should have all they need to do a server install of hpux 10.20. -Bob >Everything except the CORE INSTALL. > >SteveRob > > >>From: Bob Brown >>Reply-To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org >>To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org >>Subject: Re: HP-UX items >>Date: Mon, 15 Oct 2001 14:10:32 -0500 >> >>Looks like enough for someone wanting to run hpux 10.20 on a server (not w/s) >>box to get started! >> >>-Bob >> > > >_________________________________________________________________ >Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp bbrown@harper.cc.il.us #### #### Bob Brown - KB9LFR Harper Community College ## ## ## Systems Administrator Palatine IL USA #### #### Saved by grace From geneb at deltasoft.com Wed Oct 17 08:55:15 2001 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (Gene Buckle) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:48 2005 Subject: looking for documentation for 1963 minuteman missile computer In-Reply-To: <200110170150.SAA26112@ellie.ssl.berkeley.edu> Message-ID: > > For the gun type, all bets are off - it's a _much_ simpler design. > > > > I wonder what kind of yeild you'd get using a .50 diameter bullet against > > a 1.00 diameter target. (inches) > > The answer is 0. The ISTR that the critical radius for U235 is about 9 cm. > For plutonium, the critical radius is about 5 cm. Plutonium doesn't work > too well in the gun types, so you would tend to get a small but extremely > messy explosion even with a critical assembly. > > There are tricks to getting the critical radius down to lower values... > Hmmm. Well, like I said, I'm not a weapon designer. I don't even play one on TV. :) (does the trick involve Tritium, or is that just a yield enhancer for implosion types?) g. From mythtech at Mac.com Wed Oct 17 09:04:00 2001 From: mythtech at Mac.com (Chris) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:48 2005 Subject: Hard Card (was Re: IIgs using hard disk 20) Message-ID: > Could it have Been a Plus Systems HardCard? I know that they did a PC > hardcard, I don't know about an apple II version... they were acquired? by > quantum many years ago I just dug out my 2 "hard drive on a card" units (not to be confused with a "hot dog on a stick"). One is a Plus Hardcard (says so right on it), I have NO idea what kind of a drive is connected to it (4 small ribbon cables marked R/W, Encoder, Motor, Rotor... don't know what kind of drive connects that way), nor do I know anything about the size (40mb?, see below) or setup of the drive. But the specs may be available on Quantum's (well, now Maxtor's) web site... I do know I have seen Hardcard info there before. The other one doesn't have a name per se on in. The physical drive is marked Kalok, Octagon Disk Drive by the Kalok Corporation. Model# KL330. However, I think that might just be the OEM drive the unit manufacturer used. It looks like maybe an MFM drive (2 card edge connectors that look like 5.25 drive connectors). On the back of the unit is a sticker marked Part#: (blank), Model#: CARD30R, Serial# 9790, Date: 1/90. If the date is right, then this thing is WAY newer than I thought it was. At one point I must have had some specs on it, as I have penned onto the drive the setup of it (616c, 4h, 26s, 32mb). I flipped thru my binders of tech notes, and I didn't find anything on the Kalok drive, but I found a page of notes on the Plus hardcard... tells me how to change the IO and IRQ settings, as well as how to repartition it as one drive. Seems it comes as 2-20mb drives, but needs a device driver to work, repartitioning it as one 40mb allows it to work under DOS 6.22 without drivers. I don't think I have the drivers, and I don't think this is originally my page (it is dot matrix printed and that doesn't jive with the rest of my notes), so my guess is, I found it in a closet somewhere and clipped in into my binder. Well... hopefully some of you cared about all that... if so, there is a picture of the two drives at . If not... sorry to waste the bandwidth. -chris From mouch at imv.au.dk Wed Oct 17 11:59:46 2001 From: mouch at imv.au.dk (Jonas Mikkelsen) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:48 2005 Subject: Epson Equity LT-286 setup Message-ID: <01101718594609.08351@pc161038> Hi I just got a Epson Equity LT - 286 but I need the setup disk and cant find on Epson site - can you help me ? please From korpela at ssl.berkeley.edu Wed Oct 17 10:31:18 2001 From: korpela at ssl.berkeley.edu (Eric J. Korpela) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:48 2005 Subject: looking for documentation for 1963 minuteman missile computer In-Reply-To: from Gene Buckle at "Oct 17, 2001 06:55:15 am" Message-ID: <200110171531.IAA11394@ellie.ssl.berkeley.edu> > > There are tricks to getting the critical radius down to lower values... > > > Hmmm. Well, like I said, I'm not a weapon designer. I don't even play > one on TV. :) > > (does the trick involve Tritium, or is that just a yield enhancer for > implosion types?) The tricks usually involve things like surrounding the implosion core with a neutron reflector which can reduce the critical mass by a factor of two (from 11 kg to 5 kg or so for Pu). For some reason I don't understand and haven't looked into, it's possible to get a critical mass as low as 1 kg using plutonium nitrate solution in a stainless steel implosion sphere. Yield would probably be a few kilotons. Tritium is a yeild enhancer. Turns your A bomb into an H bomb. Eric (also not a weapons designer) From dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com Wed Oct 17 11:27:40 2001 From: dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com (Douglas Quebbeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:48 2005 Subject: looking for documentation for 1963 minuteman missile compute r Message-ID: <7A9BACCEF0171D4FB77019F5104CDD372257F3@jeffserver.tegjeff.com> > > (does the trick involve Tritium, or is that just a yield enhancer for > > implosion types?) > > The tricks usually involve things like surrounding the implosion core > with a neutron reflector which can reduce the critical mass by a factor > of two (from 11 kg to 5 kg or so for Pu). > > For some reason I don't understand and haven't looked into, it's possible > to get a critical mass as low as 1 kg using plutonium nitrate solution > in a stainless steel implosion sphere. Yield would probably be a few kilotons. > > Tritium is a yeild enhancer. Turns your A bomb into an H bomb. I assume the tritium component is a modular part of the device, as it has a rather short half-life (and IIRC, the last production facility was closed down). -dq From lgwalker at mts.net Wed Oct 17 11:33:05 2001 From: lgwalker at mts.net (Lawrence Walker) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:48 2005 Subject: New aquisitions: PCjr (minus power supply) and Amstrad PC 6400 In-Reply-To: <20011016171845.52249.qmail@web20103.mail.yahoo.com> References: <003a01c15507$df95e800$9cee9a8d@ajp166> Message-ID: <3BCD6C71.2843.C47C184@localhost> The 1640 reminds me of the IBM 2011 with the power supply in the monitor unit. There was an informative thread a while back on the mail list in the spring of 1999 regarding the 1640. I have one but alas no K-B. I did win one on e-bay but was never able to get a reply from the seller. I also have a PCjr and like you don't have the PSU. They come up on e-pay occasionally but either I haven't had the money at that time or else the seller wouldn't ship to Canada. I have managed to acquire some manuals for it, including the IBM one, however, as well as some cartridges but they are buried somewhere among my stuff which is still in disarray due to my move this summer. When I run across them I'll let you know. Lawrence > Went to a new thrift store this week. Ended up with way more stuff > than I expected to. The big items were a complete Amstrad PC 6400 > (8-bit PC clone, dual half-height floppies, 3 ISA slots, proprietary > monitor that powers the base through a monster DIN connector, > proprietary keyboard with 9-pin joystick connector) and a nearly complete > PCjr w/128K and parallel port sidecars (got non-chicklet keyboard w/cable > and CPU, but no PSU). How much should a PCjr PSU run me? What cartridges > were there for it? The company I used to write kids games for (Software > Productions - makers of "Alphabet Beasts and Company, Micro Mother Goose, > Micro Habitats, etc.) did support it, but I was the C-64 dude, not the > PeeCee dude. (ob digression: when the company closed, we _did_ hold the > door open with the PCjr - it really was a doorstop ;-) > > The scary part is that the Amstrad was about triple the cost of the Peanut > (~$6 (after markdown from $11) vs ~$2). I guess size does matter. > > So far in my digging, I've found that the Amstrad PC 6400 is the > American name for the Amstrad PC 1640, and I found a good Amstrad > resource at http://web.ukonline.co.uk/cliff.lawson/index.htm > Any other good tips? > > -ethan > > > > > > __________________________________________________ > Do You Yahoo!? > Make a great connection at Yahoo! Personals. > http://personals.yahoo.com Reply to: lgwalker@mts.net From geneb at deltasoft.com Wed Oct 17 11:51:32 2001 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (Gene Buckle) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:48 2005 Subject: looking for documentation for 1963 minuteman missile computer In-Reply-To: <200110171531.IAA11394@ellie.ssl.berkeley.edu> Message-ID: > > > There are tricks to getting the critical radius down to lower values... > > > > > Hmmm. Well, like I said, I'm not a weapon designer. I don't even play > > one on TV. :) > > > > (does the trick involve Tritium, or is that just a yield enhancer for > > implosion types?) > > The tricks usually involve things like surrounding the implosion core > with a neutron reflector which can reduce the critical mass by a factor > of two (from 11 kg to 5 kg or so for Pu). > Ahhh, ok. > For some reason I don't understand and haven't looked into, it's possible > to get a critical mass as low as 1 kg using plutonium nitrate solution > in a stainless steel implosion sphere. Yield would probably be a few kilotons. > You mean a _liquid_ in an implosion sphere? Wild. > Tritium is a yeild enhancer. Turns your A bomb into an H bomb. That's what I figured. I've heard that the Tritium needs to be replaced on a regular basis due to decay... g. From cisin at xenosoft.com Wed Oct 17 11:52:56 2001 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin (XenoSoft)) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:48 2005 Subject: Blame Microsoft! (in bad taste) In-Reply-To: <3BCD6C71.2843.C47C184@localhost> Message-ID: Where did the idea come from? One way or another, we always knew that there would be a way to blame Microsoft. At Foothill, along with some other stuff, I got a 1988 copy of Microsoft Flight Simulator. The picture on the box is very stylized view of a [small] jet flying in front of WTC! The text on the back of the box goes on to suggest trying to fly your plane between the towers (they missed?) -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin@xenosoft.com From jos.mar at bluewin.ch Tue Oct 16 23:38:18 2001 From: jos.mar at bluewin.ch (Jos Dreesen) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:48 2005 Subject: Unknown IC References: <836.688T700T2514101optimus@canit.se> <15307.23072.365967.464842@phaduka.neurotica.com> Message-ID: <3BCD0B3A.92911659@bluewin.ch> > The '181 is even used in the pdp11/04 and /34 if memory serves. > Anyone know of any others? > > -Dave > The Philips P856 and P857 have 4 74181's in their ALU. Jos Dreesen From technos at nerdland.org Tue Oct 16 12:24:26 2001 From: technos at nerdland.org (Jim Tuck) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:48 2005 Subject: looking for documentation for 1963 minuteman missile computer Message-ID: <01C15645.E1515320.technos@nerdland.org> On Wednesday, October 17, 2001 9:55 AM, Gene Buckle [SMTP:geneb@deltasoft.com] wrote: > > > For the gun type, all bets are off - it's a _much_ simpler design. > > > > > > I wonder what kind of yeild you'd get using a .50 diameter bullet against > > > a 1.00 diameter target. (inches) > > > > The answer is 0. The ISTR that the critical radius for U235 is about 9 cm. > > For plutonium, the critical radius is about 5 cm. Plutonium doesn't work > > too well in the gun types, so you would tend to get a small but extremely > > messy explosion even with a critical assembly. > > > > There are tricks to getting the critical radius down to lower values... > > > Hmmm. Well, like I said, I'm not a weapon designer. I don't even play > one on TV. :) > > (does the trick involve Tritium, or is that just a yield enhancer for > implosion types?) > > g. > Naw.. Neutron generators.. Basically a golfball sized device that spits off tons of neutrons. From chris at mainecoon.com Wed Oct 17 12:45:56 2001 From: chris at mainecoon.com (Chris Kennedy) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:48 2005 Subject: looking for documentation for 1963 minuteman missile computer In-Reply-To: <7A9BACCEF0171D4FB77019F5104CDD372257F3@jeffserver.tegjeff.com> Message-ID: Douglas Quebbeman wrote: > I assume the tritium component is a modular part of the device, as > it has a rather short half-life (and IIRC, the last production facility > was closed down). Sorta. Most "current" devices use something like lithium deutride which gets converted to tritium by the primary. Two stage weapons physics is really weird. The first time I read the phrase "photon gas" my head spun. -ck -- Chris Kennedy chris@mainecoon.com http://www.mainecoon.com PGP fingerprint: 4E99 10B6 7253 B048 6685 6CBC 55E1 20A3 108D AB97 From allain at panix.com Wed Oct 17 12:48:45 2001 From: allain at panix.com (John Allain) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:48 2005 Subject: Blame Microsoft! (in bad taste) References: Message-ID: <001e01c15733$fe23eb40$8a0101ac@ibm23xhr06> Speaking of bad taste, Did anyone notice that there was a picture of the WTC expolsions published in 'Wired' before the 11th? (apologies in advance) Fact. The October issue has no Written reference to the event because it was obv. made before 11-Sep. However, on p.170 there is a very realic picture from an ultrabad taste (now) CD called Party Music of The Coup. where the artwork depicts two tower explosions. So... blame Wired? John A. I think the A-bomb folks are getting Me 'wired' From donm at cts.com Wed Oct 17 12:52:11 2001 From: donm at cts.com (Don Maslin) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:48 2005 Subject: Redactron WP In-Reply-To: <431d396b.396b431d@ono.com> Message-ID: On Wed, 17 Oct 2001, Sergio Pedraja Cabo wrote: > > Ahem... What is this thing ? :-) > > Sergio IIRC, it is a clone of the IBM MagCard word processor. - don > ----- Mensaje Original ----- > Remitente: M H Stein > Fecha: Mi?rcoles, Octubre 17, 2001 8:42 am > Asunto: Redactron WP > > > Redactron dual mag card WP (with one card), schematic, no printer. > > Can I assume there's no interest and I can finally toss something > > without feeling guilty? > > > > mike > > > > From dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com Wed Oct 17 12:53:47 2001 From: dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com (Douglas Quebbeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:48 2005 Subject: Blame Microsoft! (in bad taste) Message-ID: <7A9BACCEF0171D4FB77019F5104CDD372257F5@jeffserver.tegjeff.com> > Where did the idea come from? One way or another, we always knew that > there would be a way to blame Microsoft. > > > At Foothill, along with some other stuff, I got a 1988 copy of Microsoft > Flight Simulator. The picture on the box is very stylized view of a > [small] jet flying in front of WTC! The text on the back of the box goes > on to suggest trying to fly your plane between the towers (they missed?) Until just recently, either in the sim docs, or on the web page associated with the sim, there is a table of famous landmarks by GPS coordinates, in case you want to fly into one of them. WTC is at the top of the list. -dq From mgoodman at hms.harvard.edu Wed Oct 17 13:00:47 2001 From: mgoodman at hms.harvard.edu (Michael Goodman) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:48 2005 Subject: Rescue Needed: SGI PowerSeries III 4d/48VGX FREE!! Message-ID: Please help find a home for this system: This is one unique system giveaway...last of the dinosaurs wants a good home; and we want the space it occupies. The SGI PowerSeries III 4d/48VGX is a beast of an IRIX system (or was in it's day). This system was a graphics workhorse that ruled the world of high-end Structural Biology Molecular Modeling; chewing up other systems in its wake. Today it is a fossil that could have high appeal to a computer archeologist. This system is about the size of a LARGE refrigerator, runs on 220V power (and knows how to USE IT!!). The system is currently not in operation; but for those that know how, or want a unique project, it can be a serviceable working unit. Expensive to purchase originally; reputedly around $250K, This is a classic system that is destined as a museum piece...it would be a real shame if this ends up in the being discarded. Here's a couple of links on this unit and its family, for those with interest: http://www.reputable.com/~skywriter/pstech/index.html http://www.geocities.com/SiliconValley/Pines/2258/4dfaq.html You must be able to remove the system via your own transportation. The system is located on the Harvard Medical School campus in Boston, Massachusetts. Please: Serious Inquires only...remember you must truck this system out on your own; and removal in a timely fashion would be appreciated. Michael -- - Michael Goodman Unix Systems Administrator Harvard Medical School West Quad Computing Group Seely G. Mudd Building/Room 204D 250 Longwood Avenue Boston, MA 02115-5731 Tel: 617-432-4588 Fax: 617-738-0516 Email: mgoodman@hms.harvard.edu Web: http://sbweb.med.harvard.edu/mjg/ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20011017/1391d5ad/attachment.html From SUPRDAVE at aol.com Wed Oct 17 13:05:00 2001 From: SUPRDAVE at aol.com (SUPRDAVE@aol.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:48 2005 Subject: New aquisitions: PCjr (minus power supply) and Amstrad PC 6400 Message-ID: <78.1c49f36c.28ff224c@aol.com> The IBM PS/1 models 2011 and 2121 both use the same monitor with power supply inside. I get several emails from people that buy the CPU but didnt get the display with it. PCjr power supplies show up every once in a while around here, especially at hamfests. In fact, I bought a jr a few months back with a second story floppy drive that connects to the main unit. I'd like to hook up my PCjr hard drive to it also. In a message dated 10/17/2001 11:43:23 AM Central Daylight Time, lgwalker@mts.net writes: << The 1640 reminds me of the IBM 2011 with the power supply in the monitor unit. There was an informative thread a while back on the mail list in the spring of 1999 regarding the 1640. I have one but alas no K-B. I did win one on e-bay but was never able to get a reply from the seller. I also have a PCjr and like you don't have the PSU. They come up on e-pay occasionally but either I haven't had the money at that time or else the seller wouldn't ship to Canada. I have managed to acquire some manuals for it, including the IBM one, however, as well as some cartridges but they are buried somewhere among my stuff which is still in disarray due to my move this summer. When I run across them I'll let you know. Lawrence > Went to a new thrift store this week. Ended up with way more stuff > than I expected to. The big items were a complete Amstrad PC 6400 > (8-bit PC clone, dual half-height floppies, 3 ISA slots, proprietary > monitor that powers the base through a monster DIN connector, > proprietary keyboard with 9-pin joystick connector) and a nearly complete > PCjr w/128K and parallel port sidecars (got non-chicklet keyboard w/cable > and CPU, but no PSU). How much should a PCjr PSU run me? What cartridges > were there for it? The company I used to write kids games for (Software > Productions - makers of "Alphabet Beasts and Company, Micro Mother Goose, > Micro Habitats, etc.) did support it, but I was the C-64 dude, not the > PeeCee dude. (ob digression: when the company closed, we _did_ hold the > door open with the PCjr - it really was a doorstop ;-) > > The scary part is that the Amstrad was about triple the cost of the Peanut > (~$6 (after markdown from $11) vs ~$2). I guess size does matter. > > So far in my digging, I've found that the Amstrad PC 6400 is the > American name for the Amstrad PC 1640, and I found a good Amstrad > resource at http://web.ukonline.co.uk/cliff.lawson/index.htm > Any other good tips? > > -ethan > >> From donm at cts.com Wed Oct 17 13:07:54 2001 From: donm at cts.com (Don Maslin) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:48 2005 Subject: Hard Card (was Re: IIgs using hard disk 20) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Wed, 17 Oct 2001, Chris wrote: > > Could it have Been a Plus Systems HardCard? I know that they did a PC > > hardcard, I don't know about an apple II version... they were acquired? by > > quantum many years ago > > I just dug out my 2 "hard drive on a card" units (not to be confused with > a "hot dog on a stick"). > > One is a Plus Hardcard (says so right on it), I have NO idea what kind of > a drive is connected to it (4 small ribbon cables marked R/W, Encoder, > Motor, Rotor... don't know what kind of drive connects that way), nor do > I know anything about the size (40mb?, see below) or setup of the drive. > But the specs may be available on Quantum's (well, now Maxtor's) web > site... I do know I have seen Hardcard info there before. > > The other one doesn't have a name per se on in. The physical drive is > marked Kalok, Octagon Disk Drive by the Kalok Corporation. Model# KL330. Kalok KL330 Fmt Cap 33 Hds 4 Cyl 615 SPT 26 RWC/WPC 617/617 Spd 40 Intf ST412/506 Encd 2,7 RLL FF 3.5HH MTBF 43.5 RPM 3600 - don > However, I think that might just be the OEM drive the unit manufacturer > used. It looks like maybe an MFM drive (2 card edge connectors that look > like 5.25 drive connectors). On the back of the unit is a sticker marked > Part#: (blank), Model#: CARD30R, Serial# 9790, Date: 1/90. If the date is > right, then this thing is WAY newer than I thought it was. At one point I > must have had some specs on it, as I have penned onto the drive the setup > of it (616c, 4h, 26s, 32mb). > > I flipped thru my binders of tech notes, and I didn't find anything on > the Kalok drive, but I found a page of notes on the Plus hardcard... > tells me how to change the IO and IRQ settings, as well as how to > repartition it as one drive. Seems it comes as 2-20mb drives, but needs a > device driver to work, repartitioning it as one 40mb allows it to work > under DOS 6.22 without drivers. I don't think I have the drivers, and I > don't think this is originally my page (it is dot matrix printed and that > doesn't jive with the rest of my notes), so my guess is, I found it in a > closet somewhere and clipped in into my binder. > > Well... hopefully some of you cared about all that... if so, there is a > picture of the two drives at . If > not... sorry to waste the bandwidth. > > -chris > > > > From foo at siconic.com Wed Oct 17 13:05:49 2001 From: foo at siconic.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:48 2005 Subject: Blame Microsoft! (in bad taste) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Wed, 17 Oct 2001, Fred Cisin (XenoSoft) wrote: > Where did the idea come from? One way or another, we always knew that > there would be a way to blame Microsoft. > > > At Foothill, along with some other stuff, I got a 1988 copy of Microsoft > Flight Simulator. The picture on the box is very stylized view of a > [small] jet flying in front of WTC! The text on the back of the box goes > on to suggest trying to fly your plane between the towers (they missed?) Try to sell it on eBay, and if they attempt to remove your auction, sue them! :) Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org From donm at cts.com Wed Oct 17 13:11:07 2001 From: donm at cts.com (Don Maslin) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:48 2005 Subject: Epson Equity LT-286 setup In-Reply-To: <01101718594609.08351@pc161038> Message-ID: On Wed, 17 Oct 2001, Jonas Mikkelsen wrote: > Hi > I just got a Epson Equity LT - 286 > but I need the setup disk and cant find on Epson site - can you help me ? > please > You might check on ftp.epson.com - they have an hx/px/qx directory and might have one for Equity stuff as well. - don From geneb at deltasoft.com Wed Oct 17 13:48:56 2001 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (Gene Buckle) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:48 2005 Subject: looking for documentation for 1963 minuteman missile computer In-Reply-To: Message-ID: > > Two stage weapons physics is really weird. The first time I read > the phrase "photon gas" my head spun. > Photon gas. Say WHAT? :) g. From dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com Wed Oct 17 13:40:06 2001 From: dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com (Douglas Quebbeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:48 2005 Subject: Blame Microsoft! (in bad taste) Message-ID: <7A9BACCEF0171D4FB77019F5104CDD372257F6@jeffserver.tegjeff.com> > Speaking of bad taste, > Did anyone notice that there was a picture of the WTC > expolsions published in 'Wired' before the 11th? > (apologies in advance) Fact. The October issue has > no Written reference to the event because it was obv. > made before 11-Sep. However, on p.170 there is a > very realic picture from an ultrabad taste (now) > CD called Party Music of The Coup. where the artwork > depicts two tower explosions. > > So... blame Wired? Blame 'Wired' for the cover design of The Coup's album? -dq From mikeford at socal.rr.com Wed Oct 17 13:28:53 2001 From: mikeford at socal.rr.com (Mike Ford) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:48 2005 Subject: IIgs using hard disk 20 In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20011016164126.023b6ec0@mail.zipcon.net> References: <9011A52E011ED311B4280004AC1BA61501467177@yalepress3.unipre ss.yale.edu> Message-ID: >> Umm, okay, what are those other HDD options? I'm curious... :-) Things I have include; Apple SCSI card Apple high speed SCSI card (supports zip drives etc.) Focus IDE card with notebook drive (about $70 from www.allelec.com) Apple IIe with hard drive in power supply (not a Vulcan). Sider sort of SCSI external wenchester in 5, 10, and maybe 20 MB sizes. Axlon 400k solid state floppy emulator. Things I don't have; Vulcan hard drive in power supply. maybe something else. From mcguire at neurotica.com Wed Oct 17 13:49:29 2001 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:48 2005 Subject: looking for documentation for 1963 minuteman missile computer In-Reply-To: RE: looking for documentation for 1963 minuteman missile computer (Gene Buckle) References: Message-ID: <15309.53945.795619.428583@phaduka.neurotica.com> On October 17, Gene Buckle wrote: > > Two stage weapons physics is really weird. The first time I read > > the phrase "photon gas" my head spun. > > Photon gas. Say WHAT? :) I get that when I eat too much Mexican food. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Laurel, MD From allain at panix.com Wed Oct 17 13:48:41 2001 From: allain at panix.com (John Allain) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:48 2005 Subject: Rescue Needed: SGI PowerSeries III 4d/48VGX FREE!! References: Message-ID: <001501c1573c$5da2f720$8a0101ac@ibm23xhr06> Rescue Needed: SGI PowerSeries III 4d/48VGX FREE!!FWIW I can make myself available to assist in the transportation 'be a Hand' This weekend, preferrably Sun Noon. John A. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20011017/98d67607/attachment.html From ysgdhio at yahoo.com Wed Oct 17 14:13:03 2001 From: ysgdhio at yahoo.com (ysgdhio) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:48 2005 Subject: Available in NJ: BYTE magazines, 1982 and 1983 complete Message-ID: <20011017151303.A5909@spies.com> In the process of reclaiming basement space for other hobbies, I have unearthed a box containing two complete years of BYTE magazines, specifically 1982 and 1983. They are in very nice condition. If you want them, please reply to me directly to arrange pickup in central New Jersey, just off the Garden State Parkway. At a later date, I might also be uncovering at least one complete Sony SMC-70 (CP/M) system, perhaps up to two more system units and a number of add-on cards. These probably won't be free, but certainly not eBay prices. (I'd work a trade, but I really really need the space) Again, reply directly if you'd be interested. Thanks. From lgwalker at mts.net Wed Oct 17 15:05:00 2001 From: lgwalker at mts.net (Lawrence Walker) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:48 2005 Subject: Toshiba T300 - last call, Toronto area In-Reply-To: <01C156B5.6FD6C520@mse-d03> Message-ID: <3BCD9E1C.24896.D09CA72@localhost> Damn ! Where were you when I was living in TO before this summer. I also started the Toronto Classic Computer Collecters, which had a brief life a couple of years ago. I would have loved to get the Cromenco's but shipping costs are just to prohibitive to the boonies of Manitoba. I seem to remember someone who contacted us that was considering selling his collection of Cromencos. Was that you ? Lawrence > One gone, one awaiting its fate: T300 dual floppy PC semi-compatible, no monitor > (but std RGB OK), spare KB, 2 sets of 3 manuals, 123 & dBII, diskettes & some > tech info; also service info & schematics for T100. Good for converting 360 > to/from 600 Kb diskettes. > > Headed for landfill if no interest. > > mike Reply to: lgwalker@mts.net From lgwalker at mts.net Wed Oct 17 15:05:00 2001 From: lgwalker at mts.net (Lawrence Walker) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:48 2005 Subject: IIgs using hard disk 20 In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <3BCD9E1C.572.D09CA36@localhost> Here's some gleanings from my database of a2gs inf. Ibelieve it was supplied by Supertimer on the csa2 newsgroup. There are two things you need to do to get the IIGS usable. First, get a hard drive for it. http://www.allelec.com/ Alltech Electronics sells an internal hard drive for the IIGS that is a hard drive on a card. No extra controller needed. It is an IDE controller plus notebook mechanism. It costs $59. For that price, you also get the most modern Apple IIGS System Software, GS/OS (System 6.0.1), which is normally on six separate floppy disks (a hard drive is needed to get the most out of it). You also get tons of freewares and sharewares. The hard drive is called the Focus hard drive card. Look for it on the Alltech site. The other thing is memory. Alltech (see above for web site) also sells the Sirius RAM card. They are revising their web site, so this product may not yet be on there, but just call them and ask. It is a 0-8MB memory card that can be expanded in 1MB increments using 1MB 30 pin SIMMs. I'm sure you have an old 386 lying around that you can gut. Only the IIGS can run a graphical OS somewhat similar to MacOS. The IIGS' OS can, with the proper software, generate printed pages on high resolution ink-jet printers and laser printers with TrueType fonts, an Apple (same as Mac) style GUI, and the use of the same keyboards and mice as the Mac (in fact, ADB was first used in the IIGS before being used on Macs...pre-GS Macs used "telephone" style keyboard cables). The IIGS has built in support for 15Khz analog RGB color. The IIGS itself has a 4096 color palette and is capable of theoretically throwing up to 3200 of those on screen at once. The monitor the IIGS uses will also work on the Amiga and Atari ST and their monitors will work on the IIGS. ------------------------------------------------------- some URLS http://www.allelec.com/ http://www.sequential.com/ Sequential Systems. http://ground.ecn.uiowa.edu/ I believe the A2 FAQ by Rubywand and a bunch of other stuff is still on this site or you can find it regularly on the csa2 n-g. There used to be older FAQ by one Nathan Mates a notorious csa2 flamer who, in a snit, removed it from circulation. If you contact me off-list I MIGHT be able to tell you what was in it. Since I've had an A-gs monitor for years and by the Law of Affinity knew that a GS would eventually find it's way to me (thanks Rich) I've kept this info and even the GS manual. Lawrence SNIP > I was hoping maybe they used the same ports, and I might be able to use > the HD 20 with my IIgs so I can add a hard drive to it. > > Anyone info would be great. > > > > -chris > > > Reply to: lgwalker@mts.net From lgwalker at mts.net Wed Oct 17 15:25:23 2001 From: lgwalker at mts.net (Lawrence Walker) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:48 2005 Subject: New aquisitions: PCjr (minus power supply) and Amstrad PC 6400 In-Reply-To: <78.1c49f36c.28ff224c@aol.com> Message-ID: <3BCDA2E3.20405.D1C74C9@localhost> Ooooo !! There was a PCjr HDD ? From IBM ? I WANT one !!! Lawrence > The IBM PS/1 models 2011 and 2121 both use the same monitor with power supply > inside. I get several emails from people that buy the CPU but didnt get the > display with it. PCjr power supplies show up every once in a while around here, > especially at hamfests. In fact, I bought a jr a few months back with a second > story floppy drive that connects to the main unit. I'd like to hook up my PCjr > hard drive to it also. > > In a message dated 10/17/2001 11:43:23 AM Central Daylight Time, > lgwalker@mts.net writes: > > << The 1640 reminds me of the IBM 2011 with the power supply in the monitor > unit. There was an informative thread a while back on the mail list in the > spring of 1999 regarding the 1640. I have one but alas no K-B. I did win one on > e-bay but was never able to get a reply from the seller. > I also have a PCjr and like you don't have the PSU. They come up on e-pay > occasionally but either I haven't had the money at that time or else the > seller > wouldn't ship to Canada. I have managed to acquire some manuals for it, > including the IBM one, however, as well as some cartridges but they are > buried somewhere among my stuff which is still in disarray due to my move this > summer. When I run across them I'll let you know. > > Lawrence > > Went to a new thrift store this week. Ended up with way more stuff > > than I expected to. The big items were a complete Amstrad PC 6400 > > (8-bit PC clone, dual half-height floppies, 3 ISA slots, proprietary > > monitor that powers the base through a monster DIN connector, > > proprietary keyboard with 9-pin joystick connector) and a nearly complete > > PCjr w/128K and parallel port sidecars (got non-chicklet keyboard w/cable > and > CPU, but no PSU). How much should a PCjr PSU run me? What cartridges > were > there for it? The company I used to write kids games for (Software > > Productions - makers of "Alphabet Beasts and Company, Micro Mother Goose, > > Micro Habitats, etc.) did support it, but I was the C-64 dude, not the > PeeCee > dude. (ob digression: when the company closed, we _did_ hold the > door open > with the PCjr - it really was a doorstop ;-) > > The scary part is that the > Amstrad was about triple the cost of the Peanut > (~$6 (after markdown from > $11) vs ~$2). I guess size does matter. > > So far in my digging, I've found > that the Amstrad PC 6400 is the > American name for the Amstrad PC 1640, and I > found a good Amstrad > resource at > http://web.ukonline.co.uk/cliff.lawson/index.htm > Any other good tips? > > > -ethan > >> Reply to: lgwalker@mts.net From lgwalker at mts.net Wed Oct 17 15:25:23 2001 From: lgwalker at mts.net (Lawrence Walker) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:48 2005 Subject: New aquisitions: PCjr (minus power supply) and Amstrad PC 6400 In-Reply-To: <005201c156ac$e08c76b0$9865fea9@downstairs> Message-ID: <3BCDA2E3.25068.D1C7497@localhost> I tried to get these scans but they wouldn't come up on my browser alas. Lawrence > I have a copy of the PCjr Technical Reference Manual. I bought a PC-Jr for > my brother years ago and got the Reference but never used it. "L@@K RARE > computer book". > > On page 2-135 > "The system power supply is a 33 watt, three voltage-level, two stage > supply" > > Appendix D-1 > Transformer > Input: 110 Vac 60Hz > Output: Pin 1 - 17Vac, Pin 2 - GND, Pin 3 -17 Vac > > I put scans of the internal Power Supply schematic and PCB here: > http://members.home.net/swtpc6800/PC_JR/ > > Download them now before AtHome goes out of businness. > > ----------------------------------------------- > Michael Holley > holley@hyperlynx.com > ----------------------------------------------- > > Reply to: lgwalker@mts.net From lgwalker at mts.net Wed Oct 17 15:45:53 2001 From: lgwalker at mts.net (Lawrence Walker) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:48 2005 Subject: IIgs using hard disk 20 Message-ID: <3BCDA7B1.31843.D2F39B0@localhost> This didn't seem to get thru last time. Sorry if it's a duplicate post. L. Here's some gleanings from my database of a2gs inf. I believe it was supplied by Supertimer on the csa2 newsgroup. --------------------------------------------------------------------- There are two things you need to do to get the IIGS usable. First, get a hard drive for it. http://www.allelec.com/ Alltech Electronics sells an internal hard drive for the IIGS that is a hard drive on a card. No extra controller needed. It is an IDE controller plus notebook mechanism. It costs $59. For that price, you also get the most modern Apple IIGS System Software, GS/OS (System 6.0.1), which is normally on six separate floppy disks (a hard drive is needed to get the most out of it). You also get tons of freewares and sharewares. The hard drive is called the Focus hard drive card. Look for it on the Alltech site. The other thing is memory. Alltech (see above for web site) also sells the Sirius RAM card. They are revising their web site, so this product may not yet be on there, but just call them and ask. It is a 0-8MB memory card that can be expanded in 1MB increments using 1MB 30 pin SIMMs. I'm sure you have an old 386 lying around that you can gut. Only the IIGS can run a graphical OS somewhat similar to MacOS. The IIGS' OS can, with the proper software, generate printed pages on high resolution ink-jet printers and laser printers with TrueType fonts, an Apple (same as Mac) style GUI, and the use of the same keyboards and mice as the Mac (in fact, ADB was first used in the IIGS before being used on Macs...pre-GS Macs used "telephone" style keyboard cables). The IIGS has built in support for 15Khz analog RGB color. The IIGS itself has a 4096 color palette and is capable of theoretically throwing up to 3200 of those on screen at once. The monitor the IIGS uses will also work on the Amiga and Atari ST and their monitors will work on the IIGS. some URLS http://www.allelec.com/ http://www.sequential.com/ Sequential Systems. http://ground.ecn.uiowa.edu/ I believe the A2 FAQ by Rubywand and a bunch of other stuff is still on this site or you can find it regularly on the csa2 n-g. There used to be older FAQ by one Nathan Mates a notorious csa2 flamer who, in a snit, removed it from circulation. If you contact me off-list I MIGHT be able to tell you what was in it. Since I've had an A-gs monitor for years and by the Law of Affinity knew that a GS would eventually find it's way to me (thanks Rich) I've kept this info and even the GS manual. Lawrence SNIP > I was hoping maybe they used the same ports, and I might be able to use > the HD 20 with my IIgs so I can add a hard drive to it. > > Anyone info would be great. > > > > -chris > > > ------- End of forwarded message ------- Reply to: lgwalker@mts.net From mikeford at socal.rr.com Wed Oct 17 15:28:41 2001 From: mikeford at socal.rr.com (Mike Ford) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:48 2005 Subject: IIgs using hard disk 20 In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20011017020844.023db9e0@mail.zipcon.net> References: <3BCD1332.6A6CDE4@internet1.net> Message-ID: >also check out > >http://bendele1-enterprises.freeyellow.com/page1.html > >This seller has Apple HiSpeed SCSI and CMS SCSI cards available for the >AppleII series Just FYI most of this stuff I also sell, except cheaper. The exception is that he lists new high speed Apple IIe scsi cards for $90, and I think the market price is a bit more than that, so I wonder if its "in stock". From geoffr at zipcon.net Wed Oct 17 15:57:56 2001 From: geoffr at zipcon.net (Geoff Reed) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:48 2005 Subject: Hard Card (was Re: IIgs using hard disk 20) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20011017135641.023a8870@mail.zipcon.net> the second one was pretty common also. they were marketted as "hard disk on a card" and usually used WD or SMS ST-506 controllers, either MFM or RLL encoding. From erd_6502 at yahoo.com Wed Oct 17 15:55:06 2001 From: erd_6502 at yahoo.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:48 2005 Subject: New aquisitions: PCjr (minus power supply) and Amstrad PC 6400 In-Reply-To: <3BCD6C71.2843.C47C184@localhost> Message-ID: <20011017205506.10112.qmail@web20108.mail.yahoo.com> --- Lawrence Walker wrote: > The 1640 reminds me of the IBM 2011 with the power supply in the monitor > unit. PS/1? > There was an informative thread a while back on the mail list in > the spring of 1999 regarding the 1640. I have one but alas no K-B. I was smart enough to recognize that the keyboard was special when I saw it on the shelf 20 feet from the CPU. The big tip-off that it was a strange system was the humongous DIN connector on the end of one of the monitor cables. > ...some cartridges... buried somewhere... When I run across them I'll > let you know. Thanks, -ethan __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Make a great connection at Yahoo! Personals. http://personals.yahoo.com From erd_6502 at yahoo.com Wed Oct 17 16:01:23 2001 From: erd_6502 at yahoo.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:48 2005 Subject: Hard Card (was Re: IIgs using hard disk 20) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20011017210123.68494.qmail@web20102.mail.yahoo.com> --- Chris wrote: > I just dug out my 2 "hard drive on a card" units... One is a Plus > Hardcard (says so right on it), I have NO idea what kind of > a drive is connected to it (4 small ribbon cables marked R/W, Encoder, > Motor, Rotor... don't know what kind of drive connects that way) I've seen those hardcards - they made them fit the available space by folding the drive's analog hardware and the ISA controller into one board. Remember; early drive controllers were longer than a short card. By combining the functions, there was now room for a tallish 3.5" drive and all the support circutry. My initial reaction to them was that they were a doomed design because you had to replace the entire unit; it wasn't feasible to upgrade just the drive. Eventually, they went to XT-IDE - I have one in my Commodore Colt (because I was having problems with the internal XT-IDE interface). I pulled the card and drive from the frame and mounted them semi-normally. It's been a while since I've been inside the Colt, but ISTR there isn't room for full-length cards in there (since by then, most of the options were 2/3 length and the Colt has just about everything you'd ever want in an XT, already on the mainboard. I use mine for driving an EPROM burner that is speed sensitive and won't work in a 486). Hardcards are very nice for putting stuff into a PC or XT when you have already filled the drive bays with floppy drives. I was thinking about moving one from my Compaq luggable to the Amstrad. I wasn't sure the PSU could take it, though. -ethan __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Make a great connection at Yahoo! Personals. http://personals.yahoo.com From gehrich at tampabay.rr.com Wed Oct 17 16:18:30 2001 From: gehrich at tampabay.rr.com (Gene Ehrich) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:48 2005 Subject: New aquisitions: PCjr (minus power supply) and Amstrad PC 6400 In-Reply-To: <3BCDA2E3.20405.D1C74C9@localhost> References: <78.1c49f36c.28ff224c@aol.com> Message-ID: <4.3.2.7.2.20011017171810.00aed680@pop3.norton.antivirus> At 03:25 PM 10/17/01 -0500, you wrote: >Ooooo !! There was a PCjr HDD ? yes > From IBM ? no --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- gene@ehrich.com gehrich@tampabay.rr.com P.O. Box 3365 Spring Hill Florida 34611-3365 http://www.voicenet.com/~generic Computer & Video Game Garage Sale From dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com Wed Oct 17 16:42:30 2001 From: dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com (Douglas Quebbeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:48 2005 Subject: looking for documentation for 1963 minuteman missile compute r Message-ID: <7A9BACCEF0171D4FB77019F5104CDD372257F7@jeffserver.tegjeff.com> > On October 17, Gene Buckle wrote: > > > Two stage weapons physics is really weird. The first time I read > > > the phrase "photon gas" my head spun. > > > > Photon gas. Say WHAT? :) > > I get that when I eat too much Mexican food. Photon gas also correlates with the comsumption of beer with less than 5% alcohol ("lite beer")... From mcguire at neurotica.com Wed Oct 17 16:51:43 2001 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:49 2005 Subject: looking for documentation for 1963 minuteman missile compute r In-Reply-To: RE: looking for documentation for 1963 minuteman missile compute r (Douglas Quebbeman) Message-ID: <15309.64879.841738.477838@phaduka.neurotica.com> References: <7A9BACCEF0171D4FB77019F5104CDD372257F7@jeffserver.tegjeff.com> X-Mailer: VM 6.96 under 21.1 (patch 8) "Bryce Canyon" XEmacs Lucid FCC: ~/Mail/sent-mail On October 17, Douglas Quebbeman wrote: > > > > Two stage weapons physics is really weird. The first time I read > > > > the phrase "photon gas" my head spun. > > > > > > Photon gas. Say WHAT? :) > > > > I get that when I eat too much Mexican food. > > Photon gas also correlates with the comsumption of beer > with less than 5% alcohol ("lite beer")... Ahh, pseudo-beer. :) -- Dave McGuire Laurel, MD From vze2mnvr at verizon.net Wed Oct 17 16:52:32 2001 From: vze2mnvr at verizon.net (Ian Koller) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:49 2005 Subject: AHA-1542's Message-ID: <3BCDFDA0.4CCEEF5D@verizon.net> > There are two flavors, though - 1542C and 1542CF - F for Fast. There was also a 1542-CP ISA Plug and Play version. From mhstein at usa.net Wed Oct 17 17:00:36 2001 From: mhstein at usa.net (M H Stein) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:49 2005 Subject: Redactron WP Message-ID: <01C15735.A9DB76A0@mse-d03> Right you are, Don; later became Burroughs. Picture at: http://communities.msn.com/TeachingComputerUseandProgramming/teaching.msnw?action=ShowPhoto&PhotoID=9 And another buenas dias, Sergio, but even without the printer I don't think you'd want to ship this baby to Spain... I'll keep the mag card & schematic though, JIC mike --------------- Date: Wed, 17 Oct 2001 10:52:11 -0700 (PDT) From: Don Maslin Subject: RE: Redactron WP On Wed, 17 Oct 2001, Sergio Pedraja Cabo wrote: > > Ahem... What is this thing ? :-) > > Sergio IIRC, it is a clone of the IBM MagCard word processor. From mhstein at usa.net Wed Oct 17 17:16:18 2001 From: mhstein at usa.net (M H Stein) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:49 2005 Subject: AIM65 items in Toronto Message-ID: <01C15738.2DA72B80@mse-d03> Sorry Paul, got a little overwhelmed by replies to my various posts and did indeed miss you somehow. Yup, except for some manuals (but there are lots more), everything's still here; just haven't found it all or sorted through it yet after my recent move. No 68000 stuff though, just AIM and S100 stuff (except for the oddball items and of course CBM and PC stuff, but I don't dare mention that here - but just in case anyone wants an original cassette PC MB or some of the interesting add-on cards from that era.... :-) Will be in touch. (And the same to everyone else waiting to hear from me) Are there really NO collectors here in the Toronto area (other than the three I've heard from)? mike ------------------------------------------------------------ Date: Tue, 16 Oct 2001 20:58:54 -0400 (EDT) From: "Paul R. Santa-Maria" Subject: AIM65 items in Toronto M H Stein: I asked about possible 6502 and 68000 items you mentioned on this list, but I never heard a reply from you. Is the AIM65 stuff still available? Paul R. Santa-Maria Monroe, Michigan USA From mhstein at usa.net Wed Oct 17 17:18:42 2001 From: mhstein at usa.net (M H Stein) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:49 2005 Subject: Data Books - Toronto area Message-ID: <01C15738.3140CD00@mse-d03> Several boxes of miscellaneous data books headed for landfill if nobody around here wants to pick them up; I definitely ain't shipping these anywhere :-) mike From geneb at deltasoft.com Wed Oct 17 17:26:33 2001 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (Gene Buckle) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:49 2005 Subject: looking for documentation for 1963 minuteman missile compute r In-Reply-To: <7A9BACCEF0171D4FB77019F5104CDD372257F7@jeffserver.tegjeff.com> Message-ID: > > > On October 17, Gene Buckle wrote: > > > > Two stage weapons physics is really weird. The first time I read > > > > the phrase "photon gas" my head spun. > > > > > > Photon gas. Say WHAT? :) > > > > I get that when I eat too much Mexican food. > > Photon gas also correlates with the comsumption of beer > with less than 5% alcohol ("lite beer")... > > *groan* g. From geoffr at zipcon.net Wed Oct 17 17:23:14 2001 From: geoffr at zipcon.net (Geoff Reed) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:49 2005 Subject: IIgs using hard disk 20 In-Reply-To: References: <5.1.0.14.2.20011017020844.023db9e0@mail.zipcon.net> <3BCD1332.6A6CDE4@internet1.net> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20011017152300.021852b0@mail.zipcon.net> no problem mike, Didn't know you sold it too :) At 01:28 PM 10/17/01 -0700, you wrote: > >also check out > > > >http://bendele1-enterprises.freeyellow.com/page1.html > > > >This seller has Apple HiSpeed SCSI and CMS SCSI cards available for the > >AppleII series > >Just FYI most of this stuff I also sell, except cheaper. The exception is >that he lists new high speed Apple IIe scsi cards for $90, and I think the >market price is a bit more than that, so I wonder if its "in stock". From chris at mainecoon.com Wed Oct 17 17:22:58 2001 From: chris at mainecoon.com (Chris Kennedy) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:49 2005 Subject: Way OT: Photon gas (was RE: looking for documentation for 1963 minuteman missile computer) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Gene Buckle wrote: > Photon gas. Say WHAT? :) Yeah, photon gas. Makes one's head hurt. Lithium deutride is a stable solid. The problem is that the reaction rate is slower that with tritium, so to build a device that works it's necessary to compress the fuel dramatically. At any given temperature the reaction rate goes up with the square of the density, but since the work needed to compress a gas is proportional to its temperature, it's necessary to find a way to keep the second-stage (fusion) fuel from getting hot before the needed density is reached. Thus the Teller-Ulam/Sakharov bomb, wherein the energy of an atomic bomb is used to compress the deuterium mass, followed by the heating of the mass to ignition temperature, hence the term "staged radiation implosion". This gig works by exploiting the fact that most of the energy of a fission bomb -- on the order of 80% -- is emitted as soft X-rays. Since the transport of energy by radiation vastly exceeds the core's expansion rate it's possible to use this energy to compress and then ignite the secondary fuel mass before the expanding core disrupts it. When the trigger detonates the soft X-rays are trapped by the radiation liner, forming a photon gas which ionize the polystyrene filler of the device case, transporting energy around the thermal shield that separates the fuel capsule from the trigger, leading eventually to the ablation of the tamper, which in turn leads to a very uniform compression of the fuel capsule (thanks to the thermal equilibrium of the photon gas with a little help from the hydrogen/carbon plasma formed from the filler). Kinetic energy from the trigger then arrives at the shield, timed to further compress the fuel. The thing finally torches off when a "spark plug" -- a hollow plutonium rod -- gets compressed by the implosion shock waves to make it supercritical (although the compression isn't much -- maybe a factor of four). Thermal neutrons left over from the fission flux initiate a chain reaction when the rod goes critical. As the fuel continues to implode accelerating rate of fission of the rod raises the temperature of the fuel around the rod the heating affects of the shock wave combine to raise the temperature to the point of ignition, at which point self-supporting fusion burning spreads outwards. Total time from initiation to the point where expansion lowers the density to the point where fusion is no longer possible is on the order of 20-40ns. -- Chris Kennedy chris@mainecoon.com http://www.mainecoon.com PGP fingerprint: 4E99 10B6 7253 B048 6685 6CBC 55E1 20A3 108D AB97 From spedraja at ono.com Wed Oct 17 08:47:40 2001 From: spedraja at ono.com (SP) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:49 2005 Subject: Redactron WP Message-ID: <001201c15712$4a982f80$0301a8c0@marga> >Right you are, Don; later became Burroughs. Picture at: >http://communities.msn.com/TeachingComputerUseandProgramming/teaching.msnw? action=ShowPhoto&PhotoID=9 > >And another buenas dias, Sergio, but even without the printer I don't think you'd want to ship this baby to Spain... I see it. Oh, my God !! Regards Sergio From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Oct 17 15:48:29 2001 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:49 2005 Subject: New aquisitions: PCjr (minus power supply) and Amstrad PC 6400 In-Reply-To: from "Russ Blakeman" at Oct 16, 1 06:46:32 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 929 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20011017/8fc4900f/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Oct 17 17:15:58 2001 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:49 2005 Subject: Dark Tower Pics In-Reply-To: from "Chris" at Oct 16, 1 10:51:45 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 4447 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20011017/e303d589/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Oct 17 17:54:36 2001 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:49 2005 Subject: New aquisitions: PCjr (minus power supply) and Amstrad PC 6400 In-Reply-To: from "Chris" at Oct 17, 1 08:14:34 am Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 382 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20011017/68d65b56/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Oct 17 17:35:05 2001 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:49 2005 Subject: New aquisitions: PCjr (minus power supply) and Amstrad PC 6400 In-Reply-To: from "Chris" at Oct 16, 1 11:12:42 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 2666 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20011017/bddb82eb/attachment.ksh From jrkeys at concentric.net Wed Oct 17 18:52:09 2001 From: jrkeys at concentric.net (John R. Keys Jr.) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:49 2005 Subject: Punch cards, punch & mag tapes (Toronto) References: <01C155E5.EEDB3660@mse-d03> Message-ID: <010601c15766$c4cc7960$3e701fd1@default> Has anyone claimed these yet ? If not I will take them. ----- Original Message ----- From: "M H Stein" To: "'ClassicComputers'" Sent: Tuesday, October 16, 2001 12:22 AM Subject: Punch cards, punch & mag tapes (Toronto) > Anybody interested in 1 or 2 boxes of 80 col cards and a manual punch to punch them with (Made by/for Wright Line, sort of like a big Dymo writer: dial your character and punch the holes)? > > Also have 4 or 5 reels of mag tape, new and used. > > mike > From edick at idcomm.com Wed Oct 17 19:10:24 2001 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:49 2005 Subject: allain@panix.com References: <001e01c15733$fe23eb40$8a0101ac@ibm23xhr06> Message-ID: <001c01c15769$48d6bde0$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> I know this is a long shot, but ... some time back I received a check from someone, possibly you, possibly someone else, ( I don't keep emails that far back) for a classic computer item that was returned not too long ago by the P.O for want of an address, as the address label was scuffed off the box. If you can tell me what the item was, how much money you sent, and the number of the account into which your check was deposited, I'll send the package again, at my own expense. If that's not you, then please forgive me for disturbing you. If it was you then please send me the address again, and I'll paste it onto a label, print it, and ship it off forthwith. regards, Dick ----- Original Message ----- From: "John Allain" To: Sent: Wednesday, October 17, 2001 11:48 AM Subject: Re: Blame Microsoft! (in bad taste) > Speaking of bad taste, > Did anyone notice that there was a picture of the WTC > expolsions published in 'Wired' before the 11th? > (apologies in advance) Fact. The October issue has > no Written reference to the event because it was obv. > made before 11-Sep. However, on p.170 there is a > very realic picture from an ultrabad taste (now) > CD called Party Music of The Coup. where the artwork > depicts two tower explosions. > > So... blame Wired? > > John A. > I think the A-bomb folks are getting Me 'wired' > > From zmerch at 30below.com Wed Oct 17 19:51:29 2001 From: zmerch at 30below.com (Roger Merchberger) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:49 2005 Subject: Collectors in Toronto (was: AIM65 items in Toronto In-Reply-To: <01C15738.2DA72B80@mse-d03> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20011017204134.027fc2a8@mail.30below.com> Rumor has it that M H Stein may have mentioned these words: >Are there really NO collectors here in the Toronto area (other than the >three I've heard from)? Well, the last time I looked at an Ontario map (which was just last weekend ;-) Toronto was quite a ways away from me -- I live in Sault Ste. Marie, MI (Obviously, at least to most Canadians, right across the border from Sault Ste. Marie, Ontario... ) AAMAF, my VAXen came from Sault, Canada as there was a much larger Digital customer base there, as the Ontario Lottery Corp. has a regional office here. (he's left canada now, tho... last I heard he was in Atlanta, GA... :-( ) I spent a weekend w/the wifey - sans kids - over in Sault, Ontario... That was nice. First weekend away from all the kids in mmmm... 5 years or so. The next closest Michigan-based collector I've seen on the list is still over 250 miles away... Anyway, just asst. ramblings... Roger "Merch" Merchberger From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Wed Oct 17 20:13:39 2001 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (ajp166) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:49 2005 Subject: Way OT: Photon gas (was RE: looking for documentation for 1963 minuteman missile computer) Message-ID: <008501c15772$6b7088f0$42ee9a8d@ajp166> -----Original Message----- From: Chris Kennedy To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org Date: Wednesday, October 17, 2001 6:55 PM Subject: Way OT: Photon gas (was RE: looking for documentation for 1963 minuteman missile computer) >much snippage... So what you said was reaction A is used to trigger chain reaction B that finally trips C with a whopping big bang. That about it? Allison From mhstein at usa.net Wed Oct 17 20:23:51 2001 From: mhstein at usa.net (M H Stein) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:49 2005 Subject: IBM Punched Card equipment docs Message-ID: <01C15752.09139E60@mse-d03> IBM PC system meant something different back then :) Here's the list, for Norm, Erik, Dave and anyone else who inquired or may be interested; a little musty but generally in good shape. REFERENCE/OPERATION MANUALS 24/26 Card Punch/Printing 46/47 Tape-to-Card Punch 56 Card Verifier 65/66 Data Transceiver/Printing 77 Collator 2, 1 no cover 82/83/84 Sorters 101 Electronic Statistical Machine 2, 1 no cover 402/403/419 Accounting Machine 3, 1 no cover 519 Electric Document-Originating Machine 2 519 ditto, Principles of Operation 528 Accumulating Reproducer 548/552 Interpreters 549 Ticket Converter 550/551/552 Card Interpreters - Principles of Operation 557 Alphabetic Interpreter - Preliminary 601 Electric Multiplier - Principles of Operation 602-A Calculating Punch 604 Electronic Calculating Punch 2 650 Magnetic Drum Data-Processing Machine 654 Auxiliary Alphabetic Unit CUSTOMER ENGINEERING REFERENCE MANUALS 602-A Calculating Punch - w/wiring diagram 77/85/87/89 Collators 402/403/419 Accounting Machine w/wiring diagram 24 Base 24/26/27/28/46/47/56/65/66/526/534/536/824/826/834/836, Wiring diagrams for 024 and 056 only Also, some interesting pamphlets about system design, procedures & control with these machines and I'll even throw in ref manuals for a Honeywell 400 and the Burroughs B200 Series (not the famous B205, but 250-280). The stack is abt 7" high, wt. abt. 10 lbs. Don't know about any others, but FWIW, I see there's a 604 manual at: http://www.spies.com/~aek/pdf/ibm/604_OperMan.pdf What I'd like to do to save time & trouble is ship it all to Norm since he generously offered to scan it, and then you can sort out who needs and gets what. mike/ccs From mhstein at usa.net Wed Oct 17 20:44:58 2001 From: mhstein at usa.net (M H Stein) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:49 2005 Subject: IBM Punched Card equipment docs Message-ID: <01C15754.FD41C5A0@mse-d03> ...What I'd like to do to save time & trouble ... Meant to add, "and make everyone happy"... (well, within my rather limited power to do so...) mike From mythtech at Mac.com Wed Oct 17 20:49:49 2001 From: mythtech at Mac.com (Chris) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:49 2005 Subject: Dark Tower Pics Message-ID: >This is the one I am not sure about. 'Philippines' suggests Texas >Instruments to me. And many TMS1000s did have 28 pins... I am going to go >with that guess for the moment Oh, I'm sorry, I might have forgotten to mention, ALL 3 chips are Texas Instuments (unless someone else used the TI logo back in the early eightys :-) ) >75494 'Hex MOS to LED digit drivers' >Basically 6 inverting open-collector drivers with a common enable input. >This chip is another one that turns up in electronic games as an LED >driver, etc. Makes sense, since there is an LED 2 digit counter/display in it. It is also the chip closest to the LED display >Another standard part >TL496C '9V Power Supply Controller' (the TMS1000 runs at 9V, BTW). >Basically a switching regulator normally used to get 9V from a couple of >primary cells. I guess it can step up the power. The game uses 2 D cell batteries connected in series, so it gets 3 volts input power. Humm... thinking about that, the choke coil could actually be a light weight transformer then (maybe? I'm not an EE, so I am guessing since a trans and a choke both have lots of wire wrapped around a magnetic core) I will have to see if I can get a chance to draw up those schematics, that will help tell more about it I am sure. Heck, I have to take it back apart anyway, I need to either oil the motor, or replace it. The game seems to still be working (thank god no perm damage from the battery leak), but the motor starts to slow and stress at certain points. -chris From brian at quarterbyte.com Wed Oct 17 21:10:14 2001 From: brian at quarterbyte.com (Brian Knittel) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:49 2005 Subject: IBM Keypunches Message-ID: <3BCDD796.29399.2F2FF31F@localhost> Hi all, Is anyone interested (seriously interested) in obtaining an IBM 029 keypunch machine? There may be four or five becoming available soon, and I'd like get together with other interested folks to share the wealth (and costs!). Please write to me directly and we'll if we can work together to make this happen. Thanks! Brian =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- _| _| _| Brian Knittel / Quarterbyte Systems, Inc. _| _| _| Tel: 1-510-559-7930 Fax: 1-510-525-6889 _| _| _| Email: brian@quarterbyte.com _| _| _| http://www.quarterbyte.com From lgwalker at mts.net Wed Oct 17 21:18:34 2001 From: lgwalker at mts.net (Lawrence Walker) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:49 2005 Subject: IBM Punched Card equipment docs In-Reply-To: <01C15752.09139E60@mse-d03> Message-ID: <3BCDF5AA.912.E5FDB1B@localhost> > IBM PC system meant something different back then :) > > Here's the list, for Norm, Erik, Dave and anyone else who inquired or may be > interested; a little musty but generally in good shape. > > REFERENCE/OPERATION MANUALS --------------- > 77 Collator 2, 1 no cover > 101 Electronic Statistical Machine 2, 1 no cover > > What I'd like to do to save time & trouble is ship it all to Norm since he > generously offered to scan it, and then you can sort out who needs and gets > what. > > mike/ccs After Norm scans them I'd like to put my dibs on one each of these 2 manuals if these are the IBM ones. I regularly used a collator and spent about a month on the Stat machine in the mid 50s doing the yearly report for Ontario Workmens Compensation Board. Lawrence Reply to: lgwalker@mts.net From ken at seefried.com Wed Oct 17 21:40:56 2001 From: ken at seefried.com (Ken Seefried) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:49 2005 Subject: looking for documentation for 1963 minuteman missile computer In-Reply-To: <200110172006.PAA56454@opal.tseinc.com> References: <200110172006.PAA56454@opal.tseinc.com> Message-ID: <20011018024056.7669.qmail@mail.seefried.com> From: Gene Buckle >You're right. I was thinking "Kryton", but that's a neurotic robot on Red >Dwarf. :) Or a character from the SciFi channel series Farscape, depending on your generation. Coincidence? I don't think so... Ken From swtpc6800 at home.com Wed Oct 17 22:06:39 2001 From: swtpc6800 at home.com (Michael Holley) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:49 2005 Subject: New aquisitions: PCjr (minus power supply) and Amstrad PC 6400 References: <3BCDA2E3.25068.D1C7497@localhost> Message-ID: <001301c15781$e84888f0$9865fea9@downstairs> These are jpeg files created with Adobe Photoshop 5.0 LE. Did anyone else have problems? ----------------------------------------------- Michael Holley holley@hyperlynx.com ----------------------------------------------- ----- Original Message ----- From: "Lawrence Walker" To: "Michael Holley" ; Sent: Wednesday, October 17, 2001 1:25 PM Subject: Re: New aquisitions: PCjr (minus power supply) and Amstrad PC 6400 > I tried to get these scans but they wouldn't come up on my browser alas. > > Lawrence > From oliv555 at arrl.net Wed Oct 17 22:12:06 2001 From: oliv555 at arrl.net (no) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:49 2005 Subject: IBM Keypunches References: <3BCDD796.29399.2F2FF31F@localhost> Message-ID: <3BCE4886.9FD639BC@arrl.net> Brian Knittel wrote: > > Hi all, > > Is anyone interested (seriously interested) in obtaining > an IBM 029 keypunch machine? There may be four or five > becoming available soon, and I'd like get together with > other interested folks to share the wealth (and costs!). > Please write to me directly and we'll if we can work > together to make this happen. > > Thanks! > Brian > =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- > _| _| _| Brian Knittel / Quarterbyte Systems, Inc. > _| _| _| Tel: 1-510-559-7930 Fax: 1-510-525-6889 > _| _| _| Email: brian@quarterbyte.com > _| _| _| http://www.quarterbyte.com I've still got the original IBM 29 manual and IBM 29 schem/IPC from a class I took way back when. Let me know if you need these...or if someone else needs to scan them, if they are not already online. Yours for the postage. -nick oliviero From NEWFLOVER at aol.com Wed Oct 17 22:30:33 2001 From: NEWFLOVER at aol.com (NEWFLOVER@aol.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:49 2005 Subject: ASR 33 Emulation - help! Message-ID: <4e.4c01a5.28ffa6d9@aol.com> Our sawmill uses an HP-1000 for process control; it has an infrared paper tape reader and an ASR 33 Teletype. And they all work. But I'd like to replace the teletype with a PC. Does anyone know how to make a PC emulate an ASR 33?? Thanks From jeff.kaneko at juno.com Wed Oct 17 22:36:32 2001 From: jeff.kaneko at juno.com (jeff.kaneko@juno.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:49 2005 Subject: Redactron WP Message-ID: <20011017.230303.-321433.1.jeff.kaneko@juno.com> Having had some actual hands-on experience with these beasts (I used to be a service droid for a Redactron Dealer), I say deep-six the mutha'. They're pigs to work on, and utterly useless without the 'printer' (actually, it's an IBM Selectric I typewriter mechanism, with a belly plate *packed* with solenoids). Electrically, not very interesting; most of the space in the cabinet is taken up by the powersupply (ya gotta source enuf current to actuate all them solenoids). The 'brain' (if ya wanna call it that) of the thing is just a 12" square board, packed with custom ceramic SSI or MSI chips. There was another board with all of the SCR's (I think, geez, that was like, twenty years ago). ANyways, one of my fondest memories was the day I had to service on one of these puppies at the Aberdeen Proving Grounds in Maryland. Those GI's schlocked so much wax on the floor in that office, the damned umbilical from the cabinet to the selectric was *stuck* to the floor! I gave it a good yank, and the wax flaked off the umbilical like so much dandruff. Yeek. The later Burroughs Redactor II's and III's were 8085 based, and are of more interest . . . On Wed, 17 Oct 2001 02:42:40 -0400 M H Stein writes: > Redactron dual mag card WP (with one card), schematic, no printer. > Can I assume there's no interest and I can finally toss something > without feeling guilty? > > mike ________________________________________________________________ GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO! Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less! Join Juno today! For your FREE software, visit: http://dl.www.juno.com/get/web/. From dpeschel at eskimo.com Thu Oct 18 00:14:37 2001 From: dpeschel at eskimo.com (Derek Peschel) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:49 2005 Subject: ASR 33 Emulation - help! In-Reply-To: <4e.4c01a5.28ffa6d9@aol.com>; from NEWFLOVER@aol.com on Wed, Oct 17, 2001 at 11:30:33PM -0400 References: <4e.4c01a5.28ffa6d9@aol.com> Message-ID: <20011017221437.A5784@eskimo.eskimo.com> On Wed, Oct 17, 2001 at 11:30:33PM -0400, NEWFLOVER@aol.com wrote: > Our sawmill uses an HP-1000 for process control; it has an infrared paper > tape reader and an ASR 33 Teletype. And they all work. But I'd like to > replace the teletype with a PC. Does anyone know how to make a PC emulate an > ASR 33?? > Thanks The last time I volunteered information, I got the connector size (of the Mac floppy port) wrong. Oh well... The ASR-33 uses ASCII over a serial line, so you don't have to deal with strange character sets. (Older Teletypes use the 5-bit Murray code.) However, you do have to deal with the speed (generally 110 baud -- can be changed depending on gearing inside the ASR-33) and the circuit configuration of the serial connection (it's a current loop; I couldn't tell you what that means, but it's not RS-232 compatible). Your HP may expect the eighth bit to be a parity bit, also. There are adapters you can buy that convert between RS-232 and current loop. I'm sure someone else on the list has them. (Allison? Chuck?) If you want sound effects, yellow paper, faint blue printing, or the smell of hot oily parts, you'll have to pay extra. :) -- Derek From dpeschel at eskimo.com Thu Oct 18 00:17:00 2001 From: dpeschel at eskimo.com (Derek Peschel) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:49 2005 Subject: IBM Keypunches In-Reply-To: <3BCDD796.29399.2F2FF31F@localhost>; from brian@quarterbyte.com on Wed, Oct 17, 2001 at 07:10:14PM -0700 References: <3BCDD796.29399.2F2FF31F@localhost> Message-ID: <20011017221700.B5784@eskimo.eskimo.com> On Wed, Oct 17, 2001 at 07:10:14PM -0700, Brian Knittel wrote: > Hi all, > > Is anyone interested (seriously interested) in obtaining > an IBM 029 keypunch machine? There may be four or five > becoming available soon, and I'd like get together with > other interested folks to share the wealth (and costs!). > Please write to me directly and we'll if we can work > together to make this happen. Where's the iron located? -- Derek From lgwalker at mts.net Thu Oct 18 01:09:34 2001 From: lgwalker at mts.net (Lawrence Walker) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:49 2005 Subject: Armatron Message-ID: <3BCE2BCE.5618.F33610C@localhost> There was a thread on the Armatron recently. I just found an Atari site with the mechanical drawings scanned in to build one as well as some old articles from Compute! and other 8-bit Atari stuff. Its at http://cerebro.cs.xu.edu/~ryanr/atari/armatron/ Lawrence Reply to: lgwalker@mts.net From mhstein at usa.net Thu Oct 18 02:00:48 2001 From: mhstein at usa.net (M H Stein) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:49 2005 Subject: punch cards, PPT Message-ID: <01C15781.179198A0@mse-d03> Hi Lawrence, Don't know yet what'll happen to the punch & cards; still trying to sort it out, along with the old IBM docs. Will keep you advised if it doesn't go to Erik in Holland or one of the other enquirers. Can't interest you in some 8 ch. punched tape equipment instead? Nice Burroughs optical reader & punch, and a box + of mylar & paper tape, assorted lovely pastel colours and black :) Hope u don't mind if I put this reply on the list, in case someone else can benefit from your tip about the cards. And you haven't told me yet what Cromemco cards you need. mike ---------- From: Lawrence LeMay[SMTP:lemay@cs.umn.edu] Sent: Wednesday, October 17, 2001 6:13 AM To: M H Stein Subject: Re: punch cards I want to eventually connect a card reader to one of my PDP 8's, and thus I would want a method of punching some cards ;) I dont have the room nor the ability to move a large IBM card punch unit, so a small unit would be desirable. I'm still looking for a omnibus card reader interface card. So no, I dont have a specific application, but i'm not looking for something to hang on a shelf and point at occasionally either. I do plan to use it eventually. By the way, it is still possible to buy blank punch cards you know. That guy on ebay who is selling the selection of different types of punch cards does sell them. I think his ebay name was key29 or key26, something like that. From mhstein at usa.net Thu Oct 18 03:56:54 2001 From: mhstein at usa.net (M H Stein) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:49 2005 Subject: Falco Terminals, ADM11 Message-ID: <01C15791.550D6460@mse-d03> Anybody need parts or info for a Falco TS-1 intelligent terminal? Also a few of the 2624 HP emulator model and the MAI 4309 Basic Four version, but no docs on these. And last but not least, a Lear Siegler ADM-11 And of course some Cromemco 3101(?)'s (unknown condition), and a C5, although if I ever do get rid of a Cromemco system, the C5 might have to go with it. Did I mention that I have some Cromemco stuff ? :) Toronto area as always From mhstein at usa.net Thu Oct 18 03:44:47 2001 From: mhstein at usa.net (M H Stein) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:49 2005 Subject: Network protocols - RS232 Serial Message-ID: <01C15791.50B1F980@mse-d03> Now that the OT ramblings are dying down, a serious one (sort of): Anybody have a use for one or more Data Products Inc. NC16/250 NetCommanders (Not to be confused with Diamond's NetCommander ISDN adapter)? Need to talk to your 15 vintage RS232 systems in the garage from one terminal? Need to have your single-port computer talk to the 15 terminals throughout your house? Need to have your 16 computers talk to each other about you while you're away? And all at the blinding speed of 19200 baud? Or do you maybe just need another obscure piece of hardware sitting on your mantelpiece? Then THIS IS THE DEVICE FOR YOU! Original cost SEVERAL 1000 $$'s each! A 16 port cascadable RS-232 switch/hub/256K buffer, DCE/DTE programmable, allowing each device to talk to any other, either pre-routed or addressable in the datastream header; simultaneous multiple paths possible, even at different baud rates. Software setup (although they'd need 2 new AA NiCads to remember), unfortunately an austere front panel with no pretty blinkenlights. BUT WAIT! THERE'S MORE! If you order right now, I'll throw in your choice of P/S or S/P converter, parallel or serial buffer, auto printer switch or serial or parallel range extender! Any serious interest? As usual, in the Toronto area, but if ya really can use one of these, unlike the Cromemcos it's almost practical to ship; not very heavy. Might need a few $$'s though, to cover my time in checking one out and copying the docs, since there's only one copy. mike From quapla at xs4all.nl Thu Oct 18 04:48:19 2001 From: quapla at xs4all.nl (quapla@xs4all.nl) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:49 2005 Subject: ASR 33 Emulation - help! In-Reply-To: <4e.4c01a5.28ffa6d9@aol.com> References: <4e.4c01a5.28ffa6d9@aol.com> Message-ID: <14813.212.153.190.3.1003398499.squirrel@webmail.xs4all.nl> Teletypes use 20mA current loop circuitry, a simple 20mA/RS232 converter is all you need ($10 - $20). Data is 7 bit ASCII, upper case only. I have my ASR33 hooked up to my workstation using an adapter and it works well. Ed > Our sawmill uses an HP-1000 for process control; it has an infrared > paper tape reader and an ASR 33 Teletype. And they all work. But I'd > like to replace the teletype with a PC. Does anyone know how to make > a PC emulate an ASR 33?? > Thanks From jhellige at earthlink.net Wed Oct 17 14:20:41 2001 From: jhellige at earthlink.net (Jeff Hellige) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:49 2005 Subject: IIgs using hard disk 20 In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <01Oct18.064121edt.119294@gateway.mediacen.navy.mil> >Things I don't have; >Vulcan hard drive in power supply. That's what I was thinking of with my original post concerning the internal IIgs hard disk! I had forgotten about the FOCUS drives but they're newer. I myself have an Apple High Speed SCSI card. Jeff -- Home of the TRS-80 Model 2000 FAQ File http://www.cchaven.com http://www.geocities.com/siliconvalley/lakes/6757 From dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com Thu Oct 18 06:34:16 2001 From: dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com (Douglas Quebbeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:49 2005 Subject: ASR 33 Emulation - help! Message-ID: <7A9BACCEF0171D4FB77019F5104CDD372257FA@jeffserver.tegjeff.com> > Our sawmill uses an HP-1000 for process control; it has an infrared paper > tape reader and an ASR 33 Teletype. And they all work. But I'd like to > replace the teletype with a PC. Does anyone know how to make a PC emulate an > ASR 33?? Most PCs running Windows either have installed or can have installed on them a terminal emulator named Hyperterm which can do what you want. However, the serial ports on PCs are RS-232C ports, while many ASR33s had 20ma current-loop serial interfaces. You'll need to either get a converter, or a separate 20ma current-loop serial card for the PC. BlackBox used to have both of these, but they got acquired, IIRC, and I can't recall the new firm's name... For the paper tapes, once read in, you can just use Hyperterm's file transfer... oops, NIX that, I see ASCII mode is not among Hyperterm's file transfer options... Hmmm, you may need to use something like PROCOMM PLUS or ProcommPlus/Win... they still have the ASCII transfer mode. Or just run DOS and use COPY, I did that with a PC and a friend's CNC machine a few years back, worked quite well. hth, -doug q From dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com Thu Oct 18 06:43:29 2001 From: dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com (Douglas Quebbeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:49 2005 Subject: IIgs using hard disk 20 Message-ID: <7A9BACCEF0171D4FB77019F5104CDD372257FB@jeffserver.tegjeff.com> > > Great product, I used mine with a Cutting Edge 30MB external drive > > until the drive's piggyback OMTI SCSI <=> MFM adapter went south. > > > > Anyone know where I can get one of these tiny adapters? > > Doug, what size was the OMTI bridge controller? I have several of the > 3.5" form factor. If that size, do you have the model number? Ok, On the board: SMS MODEL OMTI 3 FAB 005298 REV A.3 ASSY 0005447 REV A Chipset is NCR 0380xxx family with SMS & OMTI labeling. Paper label on one chip says OMTI 3127 and repeats the assembly number given above. ROM is labeled 1002550-A, 3127(C). If a working one of these doesn't get the drive going, then the pro0blem was with the drive. But I was hoping I'd killed the controller with improper termination. It sometimes seems to work at first, but then craps out as it warms up. The drive activity light comes on and stays on at that point. I'd sure love to get the damned drive backed up... I think I have copies of everything on there, but perhaps not. Regards, -dq From rachael_ at gmx.net Sun Oct 14 21:11:22 2001 From: rachael_ at gmx.net (Jacob Dahl Pind) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:49 2005 Subject: IBM ROM BASIC or lack thereof Message-ID: <505.688T1130T1913374rachael_@gmx.net> on 14-Oct-01 15:14:30, Jan Koller wrote: >Wasn't AMD's chip an Am5x86-133 in reference to it's being >a 5th generation 486 chip. >I believe the Cyrix 586 was 486 series too. Their first >Pentium level offering was the 686, wasn't it? Cyrix made a 586 m1sc which was their 586 pentium clone modified for use in a 486 motherboard, its the fast cpu for 486 motherboards. Regards Jacob Dahl Pind -- CBM, Amiga,Vintage hardware collector Email: Rachael_@gmx.net url: http://rachael.dyndns.org From Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de Thu Oct 18 08:30:42 2001 From: Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de (Hans Franke) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:49 2005 Subject: Are office people really that, umm shall we say...slow? In-Reply-To: <3B8883CF.AD4F545E@internet1.net> Message-ID: <3BCEF5A2.20918.51C8D43F@localhost> > I just went to a local computer show today. I was happy to find that a > few vendors had components available from disassembled computers or > whatever. I picked up a 3com 3C905-TX PCI ethernet card, an ATI Mach64 > video card, and a very nice Sound Blaster 16, all used of course. The > Mach64 had "Monitor" written in marker on the slot cover. Do office > people really need to remind themselves where to plug the monitor in? I > have also seen a 3.5" floppy drives marked "hard drive a:" and the 5.25" > floppy, marked, "floppy drive b:". What's the deal? Well, sometimes it's just convineant (like the colour coding for actual PC plugs) - If you mark everything unique, you just don't have to spend time in figuring out what's what. For example, at one time they where moving my office while I was on vacation ... so a friend of mine did just mark all plugs with corosponding numbers ... When I did come back, I first thought what a jerk, but then I realised that he just didn't wanted to bother at all. Again a lesson to learn: Don't always rely on your knowledge. (and implement a simple low knowledge solution) Gruss H. (still reading all the stuff from the last two month) -- VCF Europa 3.0 am 27./28. April 2002 in Muenchen http://www.vcfe.org/ From knightstalkerbob at netscape.net Thu Oct 18 09:24:59 2001 From: knightstalkerbob at netscape.net (Bob Mason) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:49 2005 Subject: ASR 33 Emulation - help! Message-ID: <770835FD.177A27DA.CF1A260E@netscape.net> Doug, >From Black Box's website; * 10/3/01???Black Box Corporation Announces Merger with Di.el. Distribuzioni Elettroniche S.r.l. * 9/25/01???Black Box Corporation Announces Merger with GCS Network Services Ltd. * 8/27/2001???Black Box Corporation Announces Merger With Optech Fibres Ltd. So what are we supposed to cal them now? Bob Mason Douglas Quebbeman wrote: > >BlackBox used to have both of these, but they got acquired, IIRC, and >I can't recall the new firm's name... > > >hth, >-doug q > -- Bob Mason 2x Amiga 500's, GVP A530 (40mhz 68030/68882, 8meg Fast, SCSI), 1.3/3.1, 2meg Chip, full ECS chipset, EZ135, 1084S, big harddrives, 2.2xCD Gateway Performance 500 Piece 'o Crap, 'ME, 128meg, 20Gig, flatbed. Heathkit H-89A, 64K RAM, hard and soft-sectored floppies, SigmaSoft and Systems 256K RAM Drive/Print Spooler/Graphics board HDOS 2 & CP/M 2.2.03/2.2.04 __________________________________________________________________ Your favorite stores, helpful shopping tools and great gift ideas. Experience the convenience of buying online with Shop@Netscape! http://shopnow.netscape.com/ Get your own FREE, personal Netscape Mail account today at http://webmail.netscape.com/ From mythtech at Mac.com Thu Oct 18 10:00:25 2001 From: mythtech at Mac.com (Chris) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:49 2005 Subject: Are office people really that, umm shall we say...slow? Message-ID: > I just went to a local computer show today. I was happy to find that a > few vendors had components available from disassembled computers or > whatever. I picked up a 3com 3C905-TX PCI ethernet card, an ATI Mach64 > video card, and a very nice Sound Blaster 16, all used of course. The > Mach64 had "Monitor" written in marker on the slot cover. Do office > people really need to remind themselves where to plug the monitor in? I > have also seen a 3.5" floppy drives marked "hard drive a:" and the 5.25" > floppy, marked, "floppy drive b:". What's the deal? Yes... they really are that dumb... at least the ones that I have to support here are. I regularly have to mark cables and drives, or they screw things up. It seems to most staff here, if it doesn't fit, force it... so the fact that most cables only fit in one place doesn't stop them (I have found VGA monitors plugged into MALE 9 pin serial ports... yes, it can be done... lots and lots of force, but it can be done!). Of course, sometimes labeling everything can backfire... thanks to my efforts to make my offices idiot proof (make something idiot proof, and they'll build a bigger idiot)... my boss now thinks EVERYTHING can be made that way... he routinely complains that he needs written directions on how to fix problems with the WIndows NT network... so in case something unexpected goes wrong while I am out of the office, they can fix it. He doesn't grasp the difference between looking for a port marked "Mouse" and diagnosing Win NT problems. So yes, office people CAN be that dumb. -chris From mythtech at Mac.com Thu Oct 18 10:03:33 2001 From: mythtech at Mac.com (Chris) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:49 2005 Subject: 5.25 floppies available Message-ID: More stuff being made available by me. I have 5.25" half height floppy drives, both HD and DD's. All working, all free (+ shipping, or you can pickup in NJ). I have about 10 of each. Any takers? -chris From emu at ecubics.com Thu Oct 18 10:08:07 2001 From: emu at ecubics.com (emanuel stiebler) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:49 2005 Subject: ASR 33 Emulation - help! References: <7A9BACCEF0171D4FB77019F5104CDD372257FA@jeffserver.tegjeff.com> Message-ID: <3BCEF057.9159B95E@ecubics.com> Douglas Quebbeman wrote: > > For the paper tapes, once read in, you can just use Hyperterm's > file transfer... oops, NIX that, I see ASCII mode is not among > Hyperterm's file transfer options... Hmmm, you may need to use > something like PROCOMM PLUS or ProcommPlus/Win... they still > have the ASCII transfer mode. Or just run DOS and use COPY, I did > that with a PC and a friend's CNC machine a few years back, worked > quite well. Nobody on this list likes KERMIT anymore ? Just wondering. From dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com Thu Oct 18 10:15:09 2001 From: dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com (Douglas Quebbeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:49 2005 Subject: ASR 33 Emulation - help! Message-ID: <7A9BACCEF0171D4FB77019F5104CDD372257FD@jeffserver.tegjeff.com> > Doug, > > From Black Box's website; > > * 10/3/01?EUR"Black Box Corporation Announces Merger with > Di.el. Distribuzioni Elettroniche S.r.l. > * 9/25/01?EUR"Black Box Corporation Announces Merger with GCS > Network Services Ltd. > * 8/27/2001?EUR"Black Box Corporation Announces Merger With > Optech Fibres Ltd. > > So what are we supposed to cal them now? Bigger Black Box? ;) -dq From mgoodman at hms.harvard.edu Thu Oct 18 10:16:12 2001 From: mgoodman at hms.harvard.edu (Michael Goodman) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:49 2005 Subject: Rescue Needed: SGI PowerSeries III 4d/48VGX FREE!! In-Reply-To: <001501c1573c$5da2f720$8a0101ac@ibm23xhr06> References: <001501c1573c$5da2f720$8a0101ac@ibm23xhr06> Message-ID: John, Thanks for your response. I am still waiting to hear from some folks who may want the system. Would you telephone me at some point to discuss logistics. Michael >FWIW I can make myself available to assist in the >transportation 'be a Hand' This weekend, preferrably Sun Noon. > >John A. -- Michael Goodman Unix Systems Administrator Harvard Medical School West Quad Computing Group Seely G. Mudd Building/Room 204D 250 Longwood Avenue Boston, MA 02115-5731 Tel: 617-432-4588 Fax: 617-738-0516 Email: mgoodman@hms.harvard.edu Web: http://sbweb.med.harvard.edu/mjg/ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20011018/8b90924b/attachment.html From mythtech at Mac.com Thu Oct 18 11:13:11 2001 From: mythtech at Mac.com (Chris) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:49 2005 Subject: ASR 33 Emulation - help! Message-ID: >Nobody on this list likes KERMIT anymore ? well... ever since Jim Henson died and his voice changed... he hasn't been as cool. I guess it really isn't easy being green. ;-) -chris From erd_6502 at yahoo.com Thu Oct 18 11:28:33 2001 From: erd_6502 at yahoo.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:49 2005 Subject: New aquisitions: PCjr (minus power supply) and Amstrad PC 6400 In-Reply-To: <001301c15781$e84888f0$9865fea9@downstairs> Message-ID: <20011018162833.39305.qmail@web20108.mail.yahoo.com> --- Michael Holley wrote: > These are jpeg files created with Adobe Photoshop 5.0 LE. Did anyone else > have problems? I did not have a problem viewing the files. Thanks for making them available. -ethan __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Make a great connection at Yahoo! Personals. http://personals.yahoo.com From erd_6502 at yahoo.com Thu Oct 18 11:31:23 2001 From: erd_6502 at yahoo.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:49 2005 Subject: IBM Punched Card equipment docs In-Reply-To: <01C15752.09139E60@mse-d03> Message-ID: <20011018163123.19276.qmail@web20106.mail.yahoo.com> --- M H Stein wrote: > IBM PC system meant something different back then :) > > Here's the list, for Norm, Erik, Dave and anyone else who inquired or may > be interested; a little musty but generally in good shape. > > REFERENCE/OPERATION MANUALS > 24/26 Card Punch/Printing I have an 026 punch. I would be happy with a scan if that's what Norm is doing. If I can get the original, I'd be happy with that, too. :-) -ethan __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Make a great connection at Yahoo! Personals. http://personals.yahoo.com From erd_6502 at yahoo.com Thu Oct 18 11:32:40 2001 From: erd_6502 at yahoo.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:49 2005 Subject: Punch cards, punch & mag tapes (Toronto) In-Reply-To: <010601c15766$c4cc7960$3e701fd1@default> Message-ID: <20011018163240.65056.qmail@web20105.mail.yahoo.com> --- "John R. Keys Jr." wrote: > Has anyone claimed these yet ? If not I will take them. I tried to. Haven't heard back. Don't know who the lucky winner is, but I suspect several people expressed interest. -ethan > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "M H Stein" > To: "'ClassicComputers'" > Sent: Tuesday, October 16, 2001 12:22 AM > Subject: Punch cards, punch & mag tapes (Toronto) > > > > Anybody interested in 1 or 2 boxes of 80 col cards and a manual punch > to punch them with (Made by/for Wright Line, sort of like a big Dymo > writer: dial your character and punch the holes)? __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Make a great connection at Yahoo! Personals. http://personals.yahoo.com From erd_6502 at yahoo.com Thu Oct 18 11:39:35 2001 From: erd_6502 at yahoo.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:50 2005 Subject: New aquisitions: PCjr (minus power supply) and Amstrad PC 6400 In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20011018163935.54181.qmail@web20104.mail.yahoo.com> --- Tony Duell wrote: > [PCjr PSU connector] > > > > > Sounds like a 3 pin Molex like appliances use, which is a 3 pin version > > of the 4 pin Molex used on hard drive power in PCs. > > Possibly... > > I think it's the same type of connector as the ones DEC used for the 3 > wire power control bus on their power controllers (relay boxes :-)). That was what I was thinking, but I haven't had the two side-by-side for a comparison yet. > I thought that was a mate-n-lock, but I am not sure. Not sure, either. I think of ASR-33 20mA connectors as Mate-n-Lock, but perhaps is a generic term for any of the Molex connectors with that size of pin and the white plastic housing. > IIRC, the polarisation on the disk drive power connector is by having 2 > sloping corners. On the PCjr power connector, it's 2 square notches in > the corners > > ___ ___ > | \ | |_ > | | | | > | | | | > | | | | > | | | _| > |___/ |___| > > PC disk drive connecotr PCjr power connector. Right. Nothing an X-acto knife can't fix. ;-) -ethan __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Make a great connection at Yahoo! Personals. http://personals.yahoo.com From lemay at cs.umn.edu Thu Oct 18 11:39:44 2001 From: lemay at cs.umn.edu (Lawrence LeMay) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:50 2005 Subject: punch cards, PPT In-Reply-To: <01C15781.179198A0@mse-d03> Message-ID: <200110181639.LAA22158@caesar.cs.umn.edu> > Can't interest you in some 8 ch. punched tape equipment instead? Nice Burroughs optical reader & punch, and a box + of mylar & paper tape, assorted lovely pastel colours and black :) Yes, I could use a good tape punch. I keep obtaining broken units... > Hope u don't mind if I put this reply on the list, in case someone else can benefit from your tip about the cards. > > And you haven't told me yet what Cromemco cards you need. No problem forwardin that to the list. I dont know the names of the cards, I havent ripped my Cromemco Z2 open. I know I need the floppy disk controller, I know the name of the card ends with 16 (theres 3 versions, ending in 4, 16, and 64). A memory card and a CPU card would also be useful spares. -Lawrence LeMay lemay@cs.umn.edu From dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com Thu Oct 18 12:28:44 2001 From: dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com (Douglas Quebbeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:50 2005 Subject: ASR 33 Emulation - help! Message-ID: <7A9BACCEF0171D4FB77019F5104CDD37225802@jeffserver.tegjeff.com> > Douglas Quebbeman wrote: > > > > For the paper tapes, once read in, you can just use Hyperterm's > > file transfer... oops, NIX that, I see ASCII mode is not among > > Hyperterm's file transfer options... Hmmm, you may need to use > > something like PROCOMM PLUS or ProcommPlus/Win... they still > > have the ASCII transfer mode. Or just run DOS and use COPY, I did > > that with a PC and a friend's CNC machine a few years back, worked > > quite well. > > Nobody on this list likes KERMIT anymore ? > Just wondering. I was never a big Kermit fan. It came at the very end of the days when it would have been of most use to me (76-81). As a nearly charter member of Ward & Randy's BBS, I adopted Ward Christiansen's XMODEM protocol, and used MODEM/MODEM86 during those years. First time I saw it was a copy that came with an 8051 protoboard in '87 and it gave me fits, being generally much less capable than a clone of Andrew Flugelman's terminal emulator/transfer program (forgot the name). PROCOMM most closely resembled Andrew's program, so that became my standard terminal emulator under DOS, and later Windows. Regards, -dq From jdonogh1 at prodigy.net Thu Oct 18 13:51:54 2001 From: jdonogh1 at prodigy.net (jdonogh1@prodigy.net) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:50 2005 Subject: Floppy Disks Message-ID: Where is a good source for 5.25" 360k disks? Also, I need to find some 8" hard-sectored single-sided disks. Thanks. From bpope at wordstock.com Thu Oct 18 13:23:01 2001 From: bpope at wordstock.com (Bryan Pope) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:50 2005 Subject: Floppy Disks In-Reply-To: from "jdonogh1@prodigy.net" at Oct 18, 01 01:51:54 pm Message-ID: <200110181823.OAA15285@wordstock.com> > > Where is a good source for 5.25" 360k disks? Also, I > need to find some 8" hard-sectored single-sided disks. > Thanks. > > eBay has some good deals every so often... Cheers, Bryan From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Oct 18 13:18:07 2001 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:50 2005 Subject: Dark Tower Pics In-Reply-To: from "Chris" at Oct 17, 1 09:49:49 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1922 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20011018/3f187855/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Oct 18 13:41:00 2001 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:50 2005 Subject: Network protocols - RS232 Serial In-Reply-To: <01C15791.50B1F980@mse-d03> from "M H Stein" at Oct 18, 1 04:44:47 am Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1118 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20011018/69ae5d97/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Oct 18 13:35:04 2001 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:50 2005 Subject: ASR 33 Emulation - help! In-Reply-To: <20011017221437.A5784@eskimo.eskimo.com> from "Derek Peschel" at Oct 17, 1 10:14:37 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 3503 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20011018/f4af1f54/attachment.ksh From donm at cts.com Thu Oct 18 14:15:04 2001 From: donm at cts.com (Don Maslin) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:50 2005 Subject: IIgs using hard disk 20 In-Reply-To: <7A9BACCEF0171D4FB77019F5104CDD372257FB@jeffserver.tegjeff.com> Message-ID: On Thu, 18 Oct 2001, Douglas Quebbeman wrote: > > > Great product, I used mine with a Cutting Edge 30MB external drive > > > until the drive's piggyback OMTI SCSI <=> MFM adapter went south. > > > > > > Anyone know where I can get one of these tiny adapters? > > > > Doug, what size was the OMTI bridge controller? I have several of the > > 3.5" form factor. If that size, do you have the model number? > > Ok, > > On the board: > > SMS MODEL OMTI 3 > FAB 005298 REV A.3 > ASSY 0005447 REV A > > Chipset is NCR 0380xxx family with SMS & OMTI labeling. > Paper label on one chip says OMTI 3127 and repeats the > assembly number given above. ROM is labeled 1002550-A, > 3127(C). > > If a working one of these doesn't get the drive going, > then the pro0blem was with the drive. But I was hoping > I'd killed the controller with improper termination. > It sometimes seems to work at first, but then craps > out as it warms up. The drive activity light comes on > and stays on at that point. > > I'd sure love to get the damned drive backed up... I > think I have copies of everything on there, but perhaps > not. > > Regards, > -dq > Doug, the nearest one that I have carries the NCR 0380XXX chip set and a label on one of the major chips that says 3127A-2D and 1002734-1D. The EPROM is identified as 1002735-C. FAB 0005564 Rev B. On the solder side is A/W 0005563 Rev B. There is a Z8 Romless chip on the board also. Any interest? - don From njc at CC47532-A.ewndsr1.nj.home.com Thu Oct 18 15:21:56 2001 From: njc at CC47532-A.ewndsr1.nj.home.com (njc@CC47532-A.ewndsr1.nj.home.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:50 2005 Subject: 5.25 floppies available In-Reply-To: from "Chris" at Oct 18, 2001 11:03:33 AM Message-ID: <200110182021.QAA25194@CC47532-A.ewndsr1.nj.home.com> Chris > >More stuff being made available by me. > >I have 5.25" half height floppy drives, both HD and DD's. All working, >all free (+ shipping, or you can pickup in NJ). I'm NJ and I could really use them for a few systems. -- Linux Home Automation Neil Cherry ncherry@home.net http://members.home.net/ncherry (Text only) http://linuxha.sourceforge.net/ (SourceForge) http://hcs.sourceforge.net/ (HCS II) From spc at conman.org Thu Oct 18 16:25:16 2001 From: spc at conman.org (Sean 'Captain Napalm' Conner) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:50 2005 Subject: ASR 33 Emulation - help! In-Reply-To: <7A9BACCEF0171D4FB77019F5104CDD37225802@jeffserver.tegjeff.com> from "Douglas Quebbeman" at Oct 18, 2001 01:28:44 PM Message-ID: <200110182125.RAA03601@conman.org> It was thus said that the Great Douglas Quebbeman once stated: > > > Douglas Quebbeman wrote: > > > > > > For the paper tapes, once read in, you can just use Hyperterm's > > > file transfer... oops, NIX that, I see ASCII mode is not among > > > Hyperterm's file transfer options... Hmmm, you may need to use > > > something like PROCOMM PLUS or ProcommPlus/Win... they still > > > have the ASCII transfer mode. Or just run DOS and use COPY, I did > > > that with a PC and a friend's CNC machine a few years back, worked > > > quite well. > > > > Nobody on this list likes KERMIT anymore ? > > Just wondering. > > I was never a big Kermit fan. It came at the very end of the days > when it would have been of most use to me (76-81). As a nearly > charter member of Ward & Randy's BBS, I adopted Ward Christiansen's > XMODEM protocol, and used MODEM/MODEM86 during those years. Kermit was a life saver when I was at college; it could always get stuff through when X/Y/ZModem wouldn't work at all. The dialups where DEC Terminal servers, connected via LAT to the VAX network, and to get to the unix servers you had to go through some other system. Once logged on, you then sent a break, dropping you back to the terminal server. Then a ``set session passall'' and ``resume'' and even then you still didn't have a clean 8-bit path (or X/Y/Zmodem wouldn't work or would hang or something). Kermit would always work no matter what though (all of this was in the '87-'93 time frame ... ) > PROCOMM most closely resembled Andrew's program, so that became my > standard terminal emulator under DOS, and later Windows. I preferred Qmodem but later switched to Procomm because of the better terminal emulation. -spc (I'm horribly upset at the university library---they replaced all the terminals with PCs and a Web interface. Aaaaaaaaaaaaaaah!) From KenzieM at sympatico.ca Wed Oct 17 18:03:49 2001 From: KenzieM at sympatico.ca (Mike Kenzie) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:50 2005 Subject: AIM65 items in Toronto References: <01C15738.2DA72B80@mse-d03> Message-ID: <00d801c1581e$785a94f0$0101a8c0@sympatico.ca> ----- Original Message ----- From: "M H Stein" To: "'ClassicComputers'" Sent: Wednesday, October 17, 2001 6:16 PM Subject: AIM65 items in Toronto > Sorry Paul, got a little overwhelmed by replies to my various posts and did indeed miss you somehow. > > Yup, except for some manuals (but there are lots more), everything's still here; just haven't found it all or sorted through it yet after my recent move. No 68000 stuff though, just AIM and S100 stuff (except for the oddball items and of course CBM and PC stuff, but I don't dare mention that here - but just in case anyone wants an original cassette PC MB or some of the interesting add-on cards from that era.... :-) Will you please stop posting these teasers :) I only have a small Toyota Corolla and I will have to bring my wife with me if I'm making a trip to Toronto. What sort of odd ball items are we talking about here? The cat is acting much better now, but he's been off the antibiotics since he started vomiting. The Vet wants him to have them for 6 weeks, we started with the liquid following surgery then he developed a reaction to it, we then switched to the pill and he developed another reaction, we switched meds and he started vomiting. Mike From mhstein at usa.net Thu Oct 18 17:06:49 2001 From: mhstein at usa.net (M H Stein) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:50 2005 Subject: Punch cards, punch & mag tapes (Toronto) Message-ID: <01C157FF.AEA96AA0@mse-d03> Sorry, a little overwhelmed by all this at the moment; will get back to ya. Ethan, AIM65 stuff is ready to go. John, still waiting to hear what you need for the Cromemcos. Will be off 'Net till Monday. mike ---------------Original Message----------------- Date: Thu, 18 Oct 2001 09:32:40 -0700 (PDT) From: Ethan Dicks Subject: Re: Punch cards, punch & mag tapes (Toronto) - --- "John R. Keys Jr." wrote: > Has anyone claimed these yet ? If not I will take them. I tried to. Haven't heard back. Don't know who the lucky winner is, but I suspect several people expressed interest. - -ethan From mhstein at usa.net Thu Oct 18 16:59:14 2001 From: mhstein at usa.net (M H Stein) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:50 2005 Subject: Network protocols - RS232 Serial Message-ID: <01C157FF.AAD5CD60@mse-d03> That's the baby, all right, but both the units and the manuals say "Products"; guess when they made yours that was the only product they had :) And these are the NC16 serial-only model, HW or XON/XOFF selectable, no parallel ports (but I do have some S/P converters... :) And I was mistaken, now that I think back; the RJ45 model (which these are) can not select DCE/DTE, it's fixed (although I don't recall which). $2995 (no, no decimals in there) when new!!!! Just found the price list. And these later models handled binary data a little better. Did I mention modem/printer sharing, many-to-many? Or computer-less local e-mail & messaging (within 250 K of course)? mike ------------Original Message------------- Date: Thu, 18 Oct 2001 19:41:00 +0100 (BST) From: ard@p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Subject: Re: Network protocols - RS232 Serial > > Now that the OT ramblings are dying down, a serious one (sort of): > > Anybody have a use for one or more Data Products Inc. NC16/250 > NetCommanders (Not to be confused with Diamond's NetCommander ISDN > adapter)? Are you sure that's not 'Digital Product Inc'? I have a couple of NetCommanders here. Quite nice multi-port RS232 and parallel 'switchboxes'. From spectre at stockholm.ptloma.edu Thu Oct 18 17:13:13 2001 From: spectre at stockholm.ptloma.edu (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:50 2005 Subject: ASR 33 Emulation - help! In-Reply-To: <3BCEF057.9159B95E@ecubics.com> from emanuel stiebler at "Oct 18, 1 09:08:07 am" Message-ID: <200110182213.PAA09724@stockholm.ptloma.edu> > Nobody on this list likes KERMIT anymore ? > Just wondering. Not only *do* I like Kermit, I have official permission from the Kermit-C64 maintainers to make updates. I'm going to be releasing some fixes for SL-Kermit to enhance its 2MHz support on the C128 very soon now (tm). -- ----------------------------- personal page: http://www.armory.com/~spectre/ -- Cameron Kaiser, Point Loma Nazarene University * ckaiser@stockholm.ptloma.edu -- Every new beginning comes from some other beginning's end. -- "Closing Time" From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Oct 18 17:17:52 2001 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:50 2005 Subject: Network protocols - RS232 Serial In-Reply-To: <01C157FF.AAD5CD60@mse-d03> from "M H Stein" at Oct 18, 1 05:59:14 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1192 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20011018/b0fc00f2/attachment.ksh From mbbrutman at magnaspeed.net Thu Oct 18 17:21:05 2001 From: mbbrutman at magnaspeed.net (Brutman.Michael) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:50 2005 Subject: PCjr Stuff Message-ID: There were a few 3rd parties that made hard drives for the PCjr, both MFM and SCSI versions. The SCSI ones are really interesting to me - there was a Future Domain TMC850Jr controller that PC Enterprises sold that attached on the side, and a card sold as part of an upgrade package by RIM that went in the internal modem slot. Unfortunately, I have neither - and I'd love to have one. I imagine that the SCSI solutions can be faked into using a SCSI Zip drive, which would be awesome .. Jr heads ... here is my contribution to the web: http://mail.magnaspeed.net/~mbbrutman/PCjr/pcjr.html I have the tech ref, the service book, and other goodies. I also wrote a cartridge & system ROM dumping program - might be handy if anybody ever decides to start copying the old cartridges. (Email me for source & .EXE) Mike From norm at docnorm.com Thu Oct 18 18:17:01 2001 From: norm at docnorm.com (Norm Aleks) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:50 2005 Subject: IBM Punched Card equipment docs References: <20011018163123.19276.qmail@web20106.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <007b01c1582a$fe0e3820$0200a8c0@peachoid> To everyone interested in chunks of these docs: Once I get the originals from Mike (musty, he keeps warning me), I'll be scanning everything and putting the scans up onto www.ibm1130.org. If there's something you want badly, let me know and I'll try to scan that first. After they're scanned, they go either to the Computer Museum History Center or to people who have the hardware but not the manual. Norm "Ethan Dicks" wrote on Thursday, October 18, 2001 9:31 AM: > I have an 026 punch. I would be happy with a scan if that's what Norm > is doing. If I can get the original, I'd be happy with that, too. :-) > > -ethan From optimus at canit.se Thu Oct 18 20:46:24 2001 From: optimus at canit.se (Iggy Drougge) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:50 2005 Subject: Are office people really that, umm shall we say...slow? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <646.692T1200T1664865optimus@canit.se> Chris skrev: >Yes... they really are that dumb... at least the ones that I have to >support here are. I regularly have to mark cables and drives, or they >screw things up. It seems to most staff here, if it doesn't fit, force >it... so the fact that most cables only fit in one place doesn't stop >them (I have found VGA monitors plugged into MALE 9 pin serial ports... >yes, it can be done... lots and lots of force, but it can be done!). There is quite a lot of VGA monitors with D9 female connectors. =) -- En ligne avec Thor 2.6a. Vi m?ste vara r?dda om varandra - det ?r det enda reciproka pronomen vi har. From rhblakeman at kih.net Thu Oct 18 22:00:57 2001 From: rhblakeman at kih.net (Russ Blakeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:50 2005 Subject: Are office people really that, umm shall we say...slow? In-Reply-To: <646.692T1200T1664865optimus@canit.se> Message-ID: You can do it, the 9 thicker serial port pins nicely bend the piss out of the 15 vga pins. Had to charge a user for the repairs on a 3 wk old 19" monitor for the cost of sending it back to KDS for a new cable, one pin was bent so bad it broke off. Not the usual thing though - I see a lot of RJ11 telephone plugs stuck into the RJ45 network card jacks. Boy that does a number on the NIC and the phone system. -> -----Original Message----- -> From: owner-classiccmp@classiccmp.org -> [mailto:owner-classiccmp@classiccmp.org]On Behalf Of Iggy Drougge -> Sent: Thursday, October 18, 2001 8:46 PM -> To: Chris -> Subject: Re: Are office people really that, umm shall we say...slow? -> -> -> Chris skrev: -> -> >Yes... they really are that dumb... at least the ones that I have to -> >support here are. I regularly have to mark cables and drives, or they -> >screw things up. It seems to most staff here, if it doesn't fit, force -> >it... so the fact that most cables only fit in one place doesn't stop -> >them (I have found VGA monitors plugged into MALE 9 pin serial ports... -> >yes, it can be done... lots and lots of force, but it can be done!). -> -> There is quite a lot of VGA monitors with D9 female connectors. =) -> -> -- -> En ligne avec Thor 2.6a. -> -> Vi m?ste vara r?dda om varandra -> - det ?r det enda reciproka -> pronomen vi har. -> -> -> From lgwalker at mts.net Thu Oct 18 22:38:28 2001 From: lgwalker at mts.net (Lawrence Walker) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:50 2005 Subject: New aquisitions: PCjr (minus power supply) and Amstrad PC 6400 Message-ID: <3BCF59E4.7010.13CF9350@localhost> Just tried them again, and they downloaded with no problem. Must have been some problem on my end. Thanks for the data. Lawrence > I tried to get these scans but they wouldn't come up on my browser alas. > > Lawrence > > > I have a copy of the PCjr Technical Reference Manual. I bought a PC-Jr for my > > brother years ago and got the Reference but never used it. "L@@K RARE > > computer book". > > > > On page 2-135 > > "The system power supply is a 33 watt, three voltage-level, two stage > > supply" > > > > Appendix D-1 > > Transformer > > Input: 110 Vac 60Hz > > Output: Pin 1 - 17Vac, Pin 2 - GND, Pin 3 -17 Vac > > > > I put scans of the internal Power Supply schematic and PCB here: > > http://members.home.net/swtpc6800/PC_JR/ > > > > Download them now before AtHome goes out of businness. > > > > ----------------------------------------------- > > Michael Holley > > holley@hyperlynx.com > > ----------------------------------------------- > > > > > > Reply to: lgwalker@mts.net From mrbill at mrbill.net Thu Oct 18 23:17:48 2001 From: mrbill at mrbill.net (Bill Bradford) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:50 2005 Subject: FREE: IBM PC Convertible (austin, tx) Message-ID: <20011018231748.H7647@mrbill.net> Got an IBM PC Convertible free for pickup in Austin, TX. Works fine the last time I plugged it in 2-3 years ago, has battery, AC adapter, and "port expansion" (serial, parallel, etc) "pack" on the back. In IBM canvas carrying case. Will not ship - pickup only. Bill -- Bill Bradford mrbill@mrbill.net Austin, TX From dpeschel at eskimo.com Fri Oct 19 00:05:46 2001 From: dpeschel at eskimo.com (Derek Peschel) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:50 2005 Subject: ASR 33 Emulation - help! In-Reply-To: ; from ard@p850ug1.demon.co.uk on Thu, Oct 18, 2001 at 07:35:04PM +0100 References: <20011017221437.A5784@eskimo.eskimo.com> Message-ID: <20011018220546.A9431@eskimo.eskimo.com> On Thu, Oct 18, 2001 at 07:35:04PM +0100, Tony Duell wrote: > > The ASR-33 uses ASCII over a serial line, so you don't have to deal with > > strange character sets. (Older Teletypes use the 5-bit Murray code.) > > True. The exact chracters printed depends on the type cylinder fitted, of > course (Sometimes the square brackets are replaced by back-arrow, and so > on). I doubt this will be a big problem for you. Unless you have one of No, the square brackets always look like square brackets. It's the underscore that may be a left-pointing arrow. The circumflex may be an upward-pointing arrow. In a _really_ old version of ASCII, escape (a.k.a ALT MODE) was in a different place too (125 or 126 instead of 27). I think that version was defined without lowercase, but Stanford University used lowercase and never bothered to move escape, so they had to shuffle the right brace and vertical bar. For good measure they even defined printed characters "on top of" the control characters. Aren't character sets fun? At least ASCII doesn't generally use shift characters, like the Murray code or the FIODEC code I'm currently playing with. Thanks for the explanation of current loops. Could you call RS-232 a current loop too, or is there something else that remains constant, or not? Now that I think about it, I believe the US and UK phone systems are incompatible for a similar reason. -- Derek From gwynp at artware.qc.ca Fri Oct 19 01:26:27 2001 From: gwynp at artware.qc.ca (gwynp@artware.qc.ca) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:50 2005 Subject: PCjr Stuff In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On 18-Oct-2001 Brutman.Michael wrote: > http://mail.magnaspeed.net/~mbbrutman/PCjr/pcjr.html Nice! Read the FAQ.... little quibble : > You know, come to think of it, some twinkie has probably ported Linux to > the PCjr ... ;-) It would be impossible to port Linux. However, Minix and maybe picobsd (or was it some other mini BSD?) might run if you have enough RAM. -Philip From mikeford at socal.rr.com Fri Oct 19 02:43:01 2001 From: mikeford at socal.rr.com (Mike Ford) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:50 2005 Subject: IIgs using hard disk 20 In-Reply-To: <01Oct18.064121edt.119294@gateway.mediacen.navy.mil> References: Message-ID: >>Things I don't have; >>Vulcan hard drive in power supply. > > That's what I was thinking of with my original post >concerning the internal IIgs hard disk! I had forgotten about the >FOCUS drives but they're newer. I myself have an Apple High Speed >SCSI card. I just got my Focus drive, and it seems like the best option, at least for me since the owner of Alltech Electronics, Elias, goes to several of the local swapmeets that I also go to. I managed to make a trade with him, and let me tell you he is one saavy trader (so good when its over you don't mind that he got a great deal, because you got a great lesson in trading). The high speed SCSI is very flexible, but not a direction I need to go in personally, so when I have them I sell them (about to list one with my next batch of ebay stuff). The Vulcan I want, because I want one. ;) From dpeschel at eskimo.com Fri Oct 19 04:51:40 2001 From: dpeschel at eskimo.com (Derek Peschel) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:50 2005 Subject: Looking for PDP-1 listings Message-ID: <20011019025140.B11270@eskimo.eskimo.com> No, not PDP-10, PDP-1. Thanks to Al Kossow, I already have the manual for MACRO, but he didn't scan the source listings (which are supposed to come with the manual) and I haven't found anyone else who has a copy. Any other listings (DDT, TECO, MIDAS, the LOGO programming language, TVEDIT or any of the timesharing systems) would be interesting too. I'm trying to spiff up the cross assembler that comes with Bob Supnik's simulator, so that's why MACRO and MIDAS are important. I'm also trying to understand Peter Deutsch's LISP, so that's why DDT is important. The others would be just for fun. I already have Spacewar from http://lcs.www.media.mit.edu/groups/el/projects/spacewar/sources/ but maybe someone has a newer version. Thanks, -- Derek From dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com Fri Oct 19 06:37:42 2001 From: dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com (Douglas Quebbeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:50 2005 Subject: IIgs using hard disk 20 Message-ID: <7A9BACCEF0171D4FB77019F5104CDD37225808@jeffserver.tegjeff.com> > Doug, the nearest one that I have carries the NCR 0380XXX > chip set and a label on one of the major chips that says > 3127A-2D and 1002734-1D. The EPROM is identified as > 1002735-C. FAB 0005564 Rev B. On the solder side is > A/W 0005563 Rev B. There is a Z8 Romless chip on the board > also. > > Any interest? Yeah, I remembered wrong, Z8 is correct... sounds like a later version of the same thing. How about this: can I try before I buy? Or are you willing to let go of it for chickenfeed (like say five bucks)? tia, -dq From dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com Fri Oct 19 06:40:37 2001 From: dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com (Douglas Quebbeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:50 2005 Subject: ASR 33 Emulation - help! Message-ID: <7A9BACCEF0171D4FB77019F5104CDD37225809@jeffserver.tegjeff.com> > It was thus said that the Great Douglas Quebbeman once stated: Dang! How can I live this down? > > I was never a big Kermit fan. It came at the very end of the days > > when it would have been of most use to me (76-81). As a nearly > > charter member of Ward & Randy's BBS, I adopted Ward Christiansen's > > XMODEM protocol, and used MODEM/MODEM86 during those years. > > Kermit was a life saver when I was at college; it could always get stuff > through when X/Y/ZModem wouldn't work at all. Admittedly, the fits I had with it weren't due to the protocol, and you're right, it did seem more robust... there were apparantly some variations in how the X/Y/Zmodem protocols got implemented... > > PROCOMM most closely resembled Andrew's program, so that became my > > standard terminal emulator under DOS, and later Windows. > > I preferred Qmodem but later switched to Procomm because of the better > terminal emulation. QModem may have been it, I was using a version under OS/2 1.0... -dq From cmurillo at emtelsa.multi.net.co Fri Oct 19 06:47:30 2001 From: cmurillo at emtelsa.multi.net.co (Carlos Murillo) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:50 2005 Subject: ASR 33 Emulation - help! In-Reply-To: <3BCEF057.9159B95E@ecubics.com> References: <7A9BACCEF0171D4FB77019F5104CDD372257FA@jeffserver.tegjeff.com> Message-ID: <3.0.2.32.20011019074730.01095024@obregon.multi.net.co> At 09:08 AM 10/18/01 -0600, emanuel stiebler wrote: >Douglas Quebbeman wrote: >> Hmmm, you may need to use >> something like PROCOMM PLUS or ProcommPlus/Win >Nobody on this list likes KERMIT anymore ? >Just wondering. I do. I have it in my vms, unix and winblows boxes. Though I have to admit that procomm has been one of the easiest, most reliable solutions around. Just like NCSA telnet in its time (for telnetting). But I agree, kermit is unsurpassed in number/variety of ports and functionality, though it is harder to use. It is one of those programs that if you don't use very often, you forget the commands. Not so with procomm. carlos. -------------------------------------------------------------- Carlos E. Murillo-Sanchez carlos_murillo@nospammers.ieee.org From optimus at canit.se Fri Oct 19 09:40:48 2001 From: optimus at canit.se (Iggy Drougge) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:50 2005 Subject: Are office people really that, umm shall we say...slow? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <806.692T2400T9405681optimus@canit.se> Russ Blakeman skrev: >You can do it, the 9 thicker serial port pins nicely bend the piss out of >the 15 vga pins. Had to charge a user for the repairs on a 3 wk old 19" >monitor for the cost of sending it back to KDS for a new cable, one pin was >bent so bad it broke off. Not the usual thing though - I see a lot of RJ11 >telephone plugs stuck into the RJ45 network card jacks. Boy that does a >number on the NIC and the phone system. I'm doing a Tony here, but... Is replacing the connector/cable on a modern monitor so difficult that it can't be accomplished without sending it away? -- En ligne avec Thor 2.6a. "Computer games don't affect kids, I mean if Pac Man affected us as kids, we'd all be running around in darkened rooms, munching pills and listening to repetitive music." David McMinn From mythtech at Mac.com Fri Oct 19 12:47:40 2001 From: mythtech at Mac.com (Chris) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:50 2005 Subject: Are office people really that, umm shall we say...slow? Message-ID: >I'm doing a Tony here, but... >Is replacing the connector/cable on a modern monitor so difficult that it >can't be accomplished without sending it away? I have replaced many monitor connectors (all VGA HD15s). They aren't usually TOO hard to do. The hardest part I have run into is usually getting the old one open. If I am doing a total replacement, it isn't an issue, as I can just cut it off... but usually, for broken pins, I try to extract the bad ones, and insert new ones... in which case I will dremmel open the old casing, and replace the pin. Molded pins can be tough, but a hot needle will usually melt away enough of the plastic to slip them out. Then a dab of hot glue on the back side holds the new pin in place. Certainly in my book, easier, cheaper and faster then sending the monitor out to be repaired... but I know what I am working on... I would never expect a regular office person (and in some cases, even a regular IT person) to be able to do it. -chris From dankolb at ox.compsoc.net Fri Oct 19 13:29:31 2001 From: dankolb at ox.compsoc.net (Dan Kolb) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:50 2005 Subject: Are office people really that, umm shall we say...slow? In-Reply-To: <806.692T2400T9405681optimus@canit.se> References: <806.692T2400T9405681optimus@canit.se> Message-ID: -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 On Friday 19 Oct 2001 15:40 pm, Iggy Drougge wrote: > I'm doing a Tony here, but... > Is replacing the connector/cable on a modern monitor so difficult that it > can't be accomplished without sending it away? It depends :-) Some monitors (Iiyama springs to mind) just have a connector at the back of the monitor, so you need to use a cable with a male 15-pin D-sub connector (is that right? apologies if it isn't) on both ends. If the cable breaks, you throw it out and replace it with another one. I have a Sony monitor whose cable broke (not by pushing it into a serial port ;-). The only way of replacing this cable would have been to open up the back of the monitor, probably unsolder the cable, and resolder a new one. I'll probably do that when I get back from University. My flat-panel monitor is the same - the cable is connected inside the display - it can't just be pulled out and replaced if it breaks. If I remember correctly, most monitors I've got are like this. It can be accomplished without sending it away, but for most cases, it's far safer/easier to send it back for repair (and it doesn't void the warranty for anyone who cares about such things). Regards, Dan (goes back to lurking again) - -- dankolb@ox.compsoc.net - --I reserve the right to be completely wrong about any comments or opinions expressed; don't trust everything you read above-- -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: PGP 6.5.8 iQA/AwUBO9BxDZdDUnce+EgsEQJwqQCfWVzKgOjEcFccpv6ImPc2IznHjqYAni4i 6QGpe6eaZORzd86o5JuWEbLZ =hjtB -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From donm at cts.com Fri Oct 19 13:32:58 2001 From: donm at cts.com (Don Maslin) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:50 2005 Subject: IIgs using hard disk 20 In-Reply-To: <7A9BACCEF0171D4FB77019F5104CDD37225808@jeffserver.tegjeff.com> Message-ID: On Fri, 19 Oct 2001, Douglas Quebbeman wrote: > > > Doug, the nearest one that I have carries the NCR 0380XXX > > chip set and a label on one of the major chips that says > > 3127A-2D and 1002734-1D. The EPROM is identified as > > 1002735-C. FAB 0005564 Rev B. On the solder side is > > A/W 0005563 Rev B. There is a Z8 Romless chip on the board > > also. > > > > Any interest? > > Yeah, I remembered wrong, Z8 is correct... sounds like a later > version of the same thing. > > How about this: can I try before I buy? Or are you willing > to let go of it for chickenfeed (like say five bucks)? > > tia, > -dq Send me an address. - don From mmcfadden at cmh.edu Fri Oct 19 14:34:47 2001 From: mmcfadden at cmh.edu (McFadden, Mike) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:50 2005 Subject: DEC memory L0115 in Kansas City Message-ID: I just came across two dec memory boards L0115-AH and L0115-00, also labeled 16MB. Does anyone know which model VAX they came from? Some web searches seem to point to VAX 8800. They might be available for $5-$10 each. Mike mmcfadden@cmh.edu -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20011019/d674f52a/attachment.html From pete at dunnington.u-net.com Fri Oct 19 14:50:24 2001 From: pete at dunnington.u-net.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:50 2005 Subject: Are office people really that, umm shall we say...slow? In-Reply-To: "Iggy Drougge" "RE: Are office people really that, umm shall we say...slow?" (Oct 19, 15:40) References: <806.692T2400T9405681optimus@canit.se> Message-ID: <10110192050.ZM15630@mindy.dunnington.u-net.com> On Oct 19, 15:40, Iggy Drougge wrote: > Russ Blakeman skrev: > I'm doing a Tony here, but... > Is replacing the connector/cable on a modern monitor so difficult that it > can't be accomplished without sending it away? Those HDD15 connectors are a bit fiddly, and in a commercial environment it makes sense to have an "approved" repair done if the equipment is very new, as it has implicatons for the warranty. Also, some cheaper monitor cables use twisted pairs instead of coax (yuk!) and if you cut off the moulded plug, it can be a pain to sort out which wire is which. -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager University of York From spc at conman.org Fri Oct 19 15:07:18 2001 From: spc at conman.org (Sean 'Captain Napalm' Conner) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:50 2005 Subject: ASR 33 Emulation - help! In-Reply-To: <7A9BACCEF0171D4FB77019F5104CDD37225809@jeffserver.tegjeff.com> from "Douglas Quebbeman" at Oct 19, 2001 07:40:37 AM Message-ID: <200110192007.QAA04874@conman.org> It was thus said that the Great Douglas Quebbeman once stated: > > > It was thus said that the Great Douglas Quebbeman once stated: > Dang! How can I live this down? > > > > I was never a big Kermit fan. It came at the very end of the days > > > when it would have been of most use to me (76-81). As a nearly > > > charter member of Ward & Randy's BBS, I adopted Ward Christiansen's > > > XMODEM protocol, and used MODEM/MODEM86 during those years. > > > > Kermit was a life saver when I was at college; it could always get stuff > > through when X/Y/ZModem wouldn't work at all. > > Admittedly, the fits I had with it weren't due to the protocol, and > you're right, it did seem more robust... there were apparantly some > variations in how the X/Y/Zmodem protocols got implemented... I don't see how. I have some documents (I think written by Ward Christiansen) about how XModem and YModem work and it seemed fairly straightforward to implement the protocol. XModem isn't exactly that difficult of a protocol to support 8-) > > > PROCOMM most closely resembled Andrew's program, so that became my > > > standard terminal emulator under DOS, and later Windows. > > > > I preferred Qmodem but later switched to Procomm because of the better > > terminal emulation. > > QModem may have been it, I was using a version under OS/2 1.0... The QModem program I used ran under MS-DOS. I've found that I really dislike the Windows versions of such programs because Windows makes working with modems a real pain (about as painful as using a modem under Unix and that's quite a task!). -spc (``No! I want to talk directly to the serial port you piece of #$%@$#@#$!#$! Let me talk to it, #$%#@$%@#$%#@!'') From dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com Fri Oct 19 16:01:47 2001 From: dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com (Douglas Quebbeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:50 2005 Subject: ASR 33 Emulation - help! Message-ID: <7A9BACCEF0171D4FB77019F5104CDD37225816@jeffserver.tegjeff.com> > > Admittedly, the fits I had with it weren't due to the protocol, and > > you're right, it did seem more robust... there were apparantly some > > variations in how the X/Y/Zmodem protocols got implemented... > > I don't see how. I have some documents (I think written by Ward > Christiansen) about how XModem and YModem work and it seemed fairly > straightforward to implement the protocol. XModem isn't exactly that > difficult of a protocol to support 8-) Ah, you assume that every programmer who has the cajones to release their code publicly has the competence level that Ward & Randy (or you & I) have... > > QModem may have been it, I was using a version under OS/2 1.0... > > The QModem program I used ran under MS-DOS. I've found that I really > dislike the Windows versions of such programs because Windows makes working > with modems a real pain (about as painful as using a modem under Unix and > that's quite a task!). As I recall it, QMODEM was the clone of Flugelman's program, and what I was using was a clone of the clone. Remember, this was in the 80s, and while programming, I was living the Hotel California lifestyle... Only in the 80s... -dq From mythtech at Mac.com Fri Oct 19 16:17:24 2001 From: mythtech at Mac.com (Chris) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:50 2005 Subject: ASR 33 Emulation - help! Message-ID: > I don't see how. I have some documents (I think written by Ward >Christiansen) about how XModem and YModem work and it seemed fairly >straightforward to implement the protocol. XModem isn't exactly that >difficult of a protocol to support 8-) Hey, since there is a discussion of protocol's going on... does anyone have the specs needed to write an implimentation of the I-modem protocol? (that's I as in "Eye" or "Myself"). I know it was created by John Friel (at least, that is what I learned when researching the protocol). But I can't find any real specs on it. The only other thing I know about it is Procomm Plus version 1.1B supports it. I need it to download data files off one of my systems here, and I want to write a nicer download front end for it. Right now I have to do it manually thru Procomm... not that it is a big deal for me, but I want to be able to let some of the other office staff here take care of the job, and for them, using Procomm and sending ASCII commands isn't a good idea (they will screw something up... they have in the past, and they will again in the future). If I can get the specs on the protocol, I can write a program with a nice GUI to handle the logging in, and selecting data, and downloading it... not to mention, then I can do it on the Mac, which means some of these people can do it right from their desk. I'm hoping some of you wizards out there might have the info I need. (I have exhausted Google among other search engines looking for it) Thanks -chris From thompson at mail.athenet.net Fri Oct 19 17:44:32 2001 From: thompson at mail.athenet.net (Paul Thompson) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:50 2005 Subject: DEC memory L0115 in Kansas City In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Most or all of the L01* part numbers are for HSC SDI/CI disk controllers rather than actual vaxen. I would guess this is a memory expansion for a HSC 40/70/90 On Fri, 19 Oct 2001, McFadden, Mike wrote: > I just came across two dec memory boards L0115-AH and L0115-00, also labeled > 16MB. Does anyone know which model VAX they came from? Some web searches > seem to point to VAX 8800. They might be available for $5-$10 each. > > Mike > mmcfadden@cmh.edu > > -- From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Oct 19 18:06:57 2001 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:50 2005 Subject: ASR 33 Emulation - help! In-Reply-To: <20011018220546.A9431@eskimo.eskimo.com> from "Derek Peschel" at Oct 18, 1 10:05:46 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1976 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20011020/2af29e44/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Oct 19 18:08:17 2001 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:50 2005 Subject: PCjr Stuff In-Reply-To: from "gwynp@artware.qc.ca" at Oct 19, 1 02:26:27 am Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 388 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20011020/a9bb2c1c/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Oct 19 18:11:37 2001 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:50 2005 Subject: Are office people really that, umm shall we say...slow? In-Reply-To: from "Chris" at Oct 19, 1 01:47:40 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1278 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20011020/942c0afb/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Oct 19 17:53:12 2001 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:50 2005 Subject: Are office people really that, umm shall we say...slow? In-Reply-To: from "Russ Blakeman" at Oct 18, 1 10:00:57 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 451 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20011019/51241aeb/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Oct 19 18:21:04 2001 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:50 2005 Subject: Are office people really that, umm shall we say...slow? In-Reply-To: from "Dan Kolb" at Oct 19, 1 07:29:31 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 2555 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20011020/4caeea0c/attachment.ksh From gwynp at artware.qc.ca Fri Oct 19 19:30:21 2001 From: gwynp at artware.qc.ca (gwynp@artware.qc.ca) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:50 2005 Subject: PCjr Stuff In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On 19-Oct-2001 Tony Duell wrote: >> > You know, come to think of it, some twinkie has probably ported Linux >> > to >> > the PCjr ... ;-) >> It would be impossible to port Linux. However, Minix and maybe picobsd >> (or was it some other mini BSD?) might run if you have enough RAM. > > Given enough RAM (640K?), is there any good reason why ELKS couldn't be > ported to the PCjr? Wow. I was not aware of ELKS http://www.elks.ecs.soton.ac.uk I should start playing with this.... -Philip From mythtech at Mac.com Fri Oct 19 21:00:16 2001 From: mythtech at Mac.com (Chris) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:50 2005 Subject: Are office people really that, umm shall we say...slow? Message-ID: >> expect a regular office person (and in some cases, even a regular IT >> person) to be able to do it. > >Office person, sure. But an IT person who couldn't solder a connector >gets no respect from me at all.... I don't disagree, but unfortuantly, Windows Crap OS and sleep thru "certifications" have bread countless morons that are now employed as IT managers. My company did a survey a number of years ago... college students, Computer majors and professors only... The LACK of knowledge, or simply WRONG knowledge coming out of these people was frightening, frightening to the core that these people were going to graduate and get jobs running the IT infrastructure of the US corportations. The only good thing that came of it, it finally convinced my boss that a college education didn't mean jack... which got me a raise (being a college drop out myself) -chris From jpero at sympatico.ca Fri Oct 19 17:45:00 2001 From: jpero at sympatico.ca (jpero@sympatico.ca) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:50 2005 Subject: Are office people really that, umm shall we say...slow? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20011020023605.PBRR3504.tomts19-srv.bellnexxia.net@duron> > Subject: Re: Are office people really that, umm shall we say...slow? > Date: Fri, 19 Oct 2001 22:00:16 -0400 > From: Chris > To: > Reply-to: classiccmp@classiccmp.org > >Office person, sure. But an IT person who couldn't solder a connector > >gets no respect from me at all.... > > I don't disagree, but unfortuantly, Windows Crap OS and sleep thru > "certifications" have bread countless morons that are now employed as IT > managers. > > My company did a survey a number of years ago... college students, > Computer majors and professors only... The LACK of knowledge, or simply > WRONG knowledge coming out of these people was frightening, frightening > to the core that these people were going to graduate and get jobs running > the IT infrastructure of the US corportations. > > The only good thing that came of it, it finally convinced my boss that a > college education didn't mean jack... which got me a raise (being a > college drop out myself) > > -chris This is correct, the primary problem lies w/ teachers spewing GIGO, good teachers is percious few. These teachers has to have good background knowledge and make sure their info+their learned knowledge is correct before teaching those to idiots and make clear on few key items. (I give nod to few students who possess that working brain). And I also expect students to recheck their learned facts. Cheers, Wizard PS: Tony, that's exactly what I did to replace mangled VGA connectors (sorry forgot the type of connector). Chop chewed up thingie off and ohm them, color code them to what pins, and solder that to new connector. Actually, cheaper for me to buy $5 M-M VGA extensions from startech and surgically extract connectors and slit open that vinyl, yank 6ft long of wires from them for other uses. Rat shock has them for a cut arm (ouch!) and restocking is iffy. After that, cut apart the old connector to extract the RF shielding shells (if it has one, most does) transfer them to newly soldered connector and solder the shielding wire to it and bind it up w/ zip ties. From acme_ent at bellsouth.net Fri Oct 19 23:06:28 2001 From: acme_ent at bellsouth.net (Glen Goodwin) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:51 2005 Subject: Network protocols - RS232 Serial Message-ID: <20011020040815.TLHS10482.imf15bis.bellsouth.net@thegoodw> Hey Mike: > Anybody have a use for one or more Data Products Inc. NC16/250 NetCommanders (Not to be confused with Diamond's NetCommander ISDN adapter)? Yes. > Need to talk to your 15 vintage RS232 systems in the garage from one terminal? Yes! How much??? Glen 0/0 From dankolb at ox.compsoc.net Sat Oct 20 08:46:36 2001 From: dankolb at ox.compsoc.net (Dan Kolb) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:51 2005 Subject: Are office people really that, umm shall we say...slow? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 On Saturday 20 Oct 2001 00:21 am, Tony Duell wrote: > But why would you need to pull the case anyway? Just replace the plug on > the end of the existing cable. Well, I was talking about replacing the whole cable. Anyway, being at University, rather than at home at the moment, means I don't have any of the right tools to replace even the connector. As I needed a monitor, I thought it far easier just to buy a new one, and try and repair the old one when I got back from Uni (plus it was an excuse to get a flat-panel display ;-). Anyway, before I'd put a new connector on, I'd want to check to make sure there's no break in the cable between where I'd put the new connector and the monitor itself - I'd need to open up the case to be able to access the other end of the cable. (If any of that makes sense). > > It can be accomplished without sending it away, but for most cases, it's > > far safer/easier to send it back for repair (and it doesn't void the > > warranty for > Easier??? Let me see. I either grab an HDE 15 plug off my bench, solder > it to the end of the cable, and am up and running again in about 10 > minutes, or I dig out the original box for the monitor, spend at least 5 > minutes puzzling out how the polystyrene bits fit round the monitor, and > then stagger down to the post office with it. Get it back about 3 weeks > later, and find it's been mishandled by said postal service, so I have to > do a full alignment on it. No thanks.... The subject was about 'office people'. Most(?) IT people wouldn't know how to solder a monitor connector, or possibly wouldn't be allowed to by either their company or Health and Safety (no, I don't know much about Health&Safety Laws). So, yes, for you, and probably most, if not all, people on this list would be easier to grab an HDE 15 plug and resolder it. For most other people, it's not. Dan - -- dankolb@ox.compsoc.net - --I reserve the right to be completely wrong about any comments or opinions expressed; don't trust everything you read above-- -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: PGP 6.5.8 iQA/AwUBO9GAP5dDUnce+EgsEQIaFQCeOhUEDj7fCKf3InJA/uPaApAZG8IAoPWI 0lSM03XHKxk02n9RKI1SRig6 =XRlI -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From bshannon at tiac.net Sat Oct 20 09:21:53 2001 From: bshannon at tiac.net (Bob Shannon) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:52 2005 Subject: ASR 33 Emulation - help! References: <4e.4c01a5.28ffa6d9@aol.com> <20011017221437.A5784@eskimo.eskimo.com> Message-ID: <3BD18881.F24DA1BA@tiac.net> Derek Peschel wrote: > On Wed, Oct 17, 2001 at 11:30:33PM -0400, NEWFLOVER@aol.com wrote: > > Our sawmill uses an HP-1000 for process control; it has an infrared paper > > tape reader and an ASR 33 Teletype. And they all work. But I'd like to > > replace the teletype with a PC. Does anyone know how to make a PC emulate an > > ASR 33?? > > Thanks > Ok, practical, how-to info here... Assuming your using a 12531-series interface in your HP... No current loop to RS-232 adapter is needed, the 12531 is able to generate and accept RS-232 signals with minor cable modifications as follows: Jumper pins 16 and T to pin V. This brings the current loop transmit data into the RS-232 converter. RS-232 transmit data is not available at pin W. Jumper pin Y to pins 4 and D. This brings receive data from the RS-232 converter into the current loop data input. RS-232 data is now applied to pin X. (These modifications are made inside the hood that attaches to the TTY board) Now then, data format issues...this gets just a little screwy here.... Older HP software will want to get seven data bits with 'space' parity when a program is running, but when reading a paper tape the data format switches over to eight data bits and no parity bit. This is due to HP software, and not the interface hardware. Contrary to some advice on the list, Hyperterminal will work just fine, and it does support ASCII file transfers. The problem is that HP software treats reading a paper tape differently than when reading keyboard input. When reading a paper tape, the 12531 interface sends a READ signal by grounding pins 13 and P through a NPN transistor (Q5). There is no 'easy' way to turn this signal into an RS-232 compatible signal for automatic format switching without adding extra hardware. Lastly, the 12531 A/B interfaces can run up to 2400 baud if given an external clock signal as a TTL signal on pin L on the interface connector. Jumper W1A must be moved to the W1B position for this to work. The 12531 C interface can run up to 9600 baud using this trick. I'm glad this question came up, I need to ship a tested RS-232 cable and 12531 board to a friend on the list... From west at tseinc.com Sat Oct 20 21:22:48 2001 From: west at tseinc.com (Jay West) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:52 2005 Subject: List Maintenance References: Message-ID: <000901c159d7$47b3f020$0101a8c0@jay> Greetings; 1) Reverse DNS has suddenly stopped working for our netblocks. It appears this happened a bit ago but really started manifesting itself recently because the old cached up queries have started to expire. In general terms this usually isn't THAT big of a deal, but some mail servers these days won't handle mail from a system that fails a reverse lookup. The problem isn't with us, it is two hops above us that they have their in-addr.arpa delegation down to us broken. I'm trying to get them to fix this as soon as possible. 2) We are in the process of reloading our entire set of servers from scratch that comprise our internet service. This means upgrading EVERYTHING including all layered software products. This will take some time as it will mean fresh installs of 30 some odd FreeBSD machines. Most all the servers have failover systems, but this list runs on a single machine. While we will do our very best to prevent any interruptions to classiccmp list traffic, it is probable that during the upgrade classiccmp service may be intermittent. We expect to do the machine handling this list around the middle or end of this coming week. This will certainly get us up to the latest version of majordomo, which I believe has some speed enhancements for delivery of large lists of outbound messages. We will also be updating the software that pulls all the classiccmp posts into the archive at www.classiccmp.org and I think the new version has a search function built in. Thanks for your patience & understanding as we improve our infrastructure. Regards, Jay West From jhellige at earthlink.net Sat Oct 20 11:06:27 2001 From: jhellige at earthlink.net (Jeff Hellige) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:52 2005 Subject: OT: Tulip 21041 ethernet driver needed In-Reply-To: <000901c159d7$47b3f020$0101a8c0@jay> References: <000901c159d7$47b3f020$0101a8c0@jay> Message-ID: Since we have so many knowledgable DEC people here, I figured I'd post this here. I'm in need of driver for Novell Netware 3.12 server for a generic DEC 21041-based ethernet board. The actual board manufacturer doesn't matter as long as it's for the 21041 chipset or will work with a board based on that chipset. Hey Netware 3.12 is almost on topic! Jeff -- Home of the TRS-80 Model 2000 FAQ File http://www.cchaven.com http://www.geocities.com/siliconvalley/lakes/6757 From zmerch at 30below.com Sat Oct 20 12:41:59 2001 From: zmerch at 30below.com (Roger Merchberger) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:52 2005 Subject: Are office people really that, umm shall we say...slow? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20011020132954.025c65e8@mail.30below.com> Rumor has it that Tony Duell may have mentioned these words: >Of course the other thing that bothers me is that people here (who in >general are hackers) don't pull the case of their monitors the day they >get them and measure important voltages inside (at least the CRT >electrode voltages, PSU outputs (if you can find them), flyback-produced >supplies, etc. These will come in _very_ handy when the monitor stops >working. You can quickly see what area(s) the problem must be in. Well [for me anyway] TV repair was never my strong point -- and that includes monitors. I just don't like being inside the buggers. And I've tried to resolder the HDE15 -- once -- and it was a pain, without the right tools (which, of course, I didn't have...) It took me over 2 hours to solder the thing together *correctly* and have it stress-relieved enough to last more than a week... But that's just me. YMMV (and it seems it does! ;-) >Hmmm... At least in the UK, a device has to be 'of merchantable quality'. >If you do a repair on something, and it subsequently fails in some other >way (say, in this case, the flyback transformer failed a couple of weeks >after you resoldered the connector), then I am pretty sure that if you >can prove your repair had nothing to do with the second failure, then the >company has to give you a refund. Period. Makes me wanna move to the UK... In the US, cable failures are not covered under the warranty, but if you put a new end on the cable to make it functional again, that will void the warranty with most monitor manufacturers that I've dealt with. This is why I refuse to purchase a monitor without an HDE15 on *both* ends from now on... unless it's a "$5 special" purchased at a "car boot sale" I believe they're called in the UK - garage/yard sale here in the US. >On several occasions I've repaired minor faults on new equipment only to >have other things fail later (things that require expensive parts to >replace). I've never had much trouble convincing the manufacturers that >(a) I am clueful (turning up with the service manual and pointing out the >bits on the schematic is often a good trick :-)) (b) I know what parts I >need to replace and (c) they darn well ought to give be said parts if >they don't want to end up in a small claims court.... Here (sadly), it's the other way around... Anywho, If I ever get the cash (doubtful) or you find yourself *and me* a damn-fine paying job (also doubtful) I'll move to the UK and enjoy laws that protect the clueful... but until then, if it's under warranty, we send it back. Roger "Merch" Merchberger From dittman at dittman.net Sat Oct 20 13:09:22 2001 From: dittman at dittman.net (Eric Dittman) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:52 2005 Subject: Searching one TK50 In-Reply-To: from "SP" at Jan 06, 1980 02:44:49 AM Message-ID: <200110201809.f9KI9NG10238@narnia.int.dittman.net> > Hello. I have a lot of TK50 tapes just received. They appear to contain VMS > 5.0, 5.1, 5.2, 5.3 and 5.4 > basic distribution, plus the mandatory updates. There is some copies of VMS > Fortran, VMS C 3.0, > and Oracle for VMS. And the backups contains references to Word Perfect > documents, then I suppose > the Disk Backup Images (there is some of them) could contains a complete > system installed. > > The question is that I don't have actually one TK5o to read them. I have one > Microvax 3100 and one > MIcrovax 2000, and I'd like to purchase or obtain one tape unit for every of > this machines. If I understand > it ok, the VS2000 needs one model, and the other DEC (or Scsi) machines the > other TK50 model. > > Well.... What's about this ? There is somebody that knows about some tape > device (or both) for trade ? I have a TZ30 drive (internal). The TZ30 is a 5.25" half-height drive and can read TK50 tapes. -- Eric Dittman dittman@dittman.net Check out the DEC Enthusiasts Club at http://www.dittman.net/ From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat Oct 20 13:20:33 2001 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:52 2005 Subject: Are office people really that, umm shall we say...slow? In-Reply-To: <20011020023605.PBRR3504.tomts19-srv.bellnexxia.net@duron> from "jpero@sympatico.ca" at Oct 19, 1 10:45:00 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 782 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20011020/9ae5a679/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat Oct 20 13:52:31 2001 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:52 2005 Subject: Are office people really that, umm shall we say...slow? In-Reply-To: from "Chris" at Oct 19, 1 10:00:16 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1800 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20011020/8c73e390/attachment.ksh From kees.stravers at iae.nl Sat Oct 20 13:57:30 2001 From: kees.stravers at iae.nl (kees.stravers@iae.nl) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:52 2005 Subject: Computer collectors meeting in The Netherlands 27 oct. Message-ID: <20011020185730.E13B220FBB@mail.iae.nl> Hi, I don't know if it has been mentioned here already, sorry for the dupe if it has been. The members of the Dutch computer collectors mailing list CVML are having a computer swap meeting for the third time this year. The focus will be on trading, where the members will bring machines they don't want anymore (and of course a few to show off with :) ). The list members mostly collect 8 bit micros from the 80's. Last time the meeting was a great success for me, I arrived there with a van filled with computers, and I left with only one :) The meeting will be held on october the 27th in the TwinType building at the Valkenierslaan 47 in Breda from 10.00 to 20.00 hours. There is a (Dutch language) web site at http://www.xs4all.nl/~rimmer/cvml/ For more information you can mail ton.brands@xs4all.nl Grtz, Kees. -- kees.stravers@iae.nl http://home.iae.nl/users/pb0aia/ http://www.vaxarchive.org Net-Tamer V 1.08.1 - Registered From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat Oct 20 13:59:04 2001 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:52 2005 Subject: Are office people really that, umm shall we say...slow? In-Reply-To: from "Dan Kolb" at Oct 20, 1 02:46:36 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 2283 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20011020/0f5d8995/attachment.ksh From john_boffemmyer_iv at boff-net.dhs.org Sat Oct 20 14:08:23 2001 From: john_boffemmyer_iv at boff-net.dhs.org (John Boffemmyer IV) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:52 2005 Subject: OT: Tulip 21041 ethernet driver needed In-Reply-To: References: <000901c159d7$47b3f020$0101a8c0@jay> <000901c159d7$47b3f020$0101a8c0@jay> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20011020145743.00a553f0@sokieserv.dhs.org> Hey Jeff, if the card is PCI, try Kingston.com they make a card, the EtherRx KNE40BT that has the Tulip chip and the drivers work fine. Also, the SMC.com SMC PCI EtherPower card is based on the Tulip chip and those drivers should work. If you need direct links to the drivers for Novell support, email me at john_boffemmyer_iv@boff-net.dhs.org and I'll send ya the direct links. BTW: like a sneaky bastard, I found these drivers searching around when I was looking for my KNE30BT drivers at DEC's WEB SITE! http://gatekeeper.dec.com/pub/digital/info/semiconductor/networks-and-communications/software/dsc-software-nc.html This INCLUDED specific Novell Client AND Server drivers for Tulips and various versions, including Novell 3.12!!! - John Boffemmyer IV At 12:06 PM 10/20/01, you wrote: > Since we have so many knowledgable DEC people here, I figured I'd > post this here. I'm in need of driver for Novell Netware 3.12 server for > a generic DEC 21041-based ethernet board. The actual board manufacturer > doesn't matter as long as it's for the 21041 chipset or will work with a > board based on that chipset. > > Hey Netware 3.12 is almost on topic! > > Jeff >-- > Home of the TRS-80 Model 2000 FAQ File > http://www.cchaven.com > http://www.geocities.com/siliconvalley/lakes/6757 > ---------------------------------------- Founder, Lead Writer, Tech Analyst and Web Designer Boff-Net Technologies http://boff-net.dhs.org/index.html --------------------------------------- From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat Oct 20 15:43:51 2001 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:52 2005 Subject: Are office people really that, umm shall we say...slow? In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20011020132954.025c65e8@mail.30below.com> from "Roger Merchberger" at Oct 20, 1 01:41:59 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 2693 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20011020/bf240e68/attachment.ksh From dankolb at ox.compsoc.net Sat Oct 20 15:50:15 2001 From: dankolb at ox.compsoc.net (Dan Kolb) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:52 2005 Subject: Are office people really that, umm shall we say...slow? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 On Saturday 20 Oct 2001 19:59 pm, Tony Duell wrote: > Connector are cheaper than cables. And they're easier to get. Often the > monitor end of the cable terminates in some strange PCB connectors, of > which there are dozens of varients, many of them almost impossible to > find... Thanks :-) I didn't know that. To be quite honest, I can't recall ever having the need to open up monitors before - so far all the one's I've got have worked fine - it's only the newest one that the cable broke in. Is it just me, or does new technology seem much less reliable than old(er) stuff? > When I was an undergraduate (admittedly at the other university), I found > a toolkit to be essential. It's amazing how often you need to fix things. > I had most common hand tools, a soldering station, solder sucker, > multimeter, etc in my room. Even a small 'scope. And I needed them... To be quite honest, for the very few times I'd need one (possibly once or twice a year) it's not worth for me to take all the equipment up from home - it's far easier just to take the faulty item back home and fix it there. I'm sure you can forgive me not having equipment here (actually, I do have a soldering iron now, but that's it) :-) > The vidoe lines have 75 )hm termination resistors, so you can measure the > reisstance between the video cable and its screen. If it tests open > there's a break in the cable. You can normally detect the protection > diodes on digital lines too with an ohmmeter. So you can, in fact, check > for broken wires from the plug end of the cable only. Thank you. I'll give that a try. > > The subject was about 'office people'. Most(?) IT people wouldn't know > > how to solder a monitor connector, or possibly wouldn't be allowed to by > > either > As I said in another message, such IT people get no respect from me... I agree. A competent IT guy should be able to fix items like broken connectors with little effort. And, of course, should be able to build a computer out of parts (that is, graphics card, CD-ROM, rather than the individual chips :-) - I'm sure there are people who don't know how to do that. > > their company or Health and Safety (no, I don't know much about > > Health&Safety > Then you smuggle in one of those gas-powered soldering irons and fix it > when the powers-that-be are not watching :-) Yup :) Although most people who know me know that I have a very low regard (none, really) for Health and Safety laws - I watch out where I put stuff, other people should too (okay, probably not the best thing to admit on a public forum :-) Dan - -- dankolb@ox.compsoc.net - --I reserve the right to be completely wrong about any comments or opinions expressed; don't trust everything you read above-- -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: PGP 6.5.8 iQA/AwUBO9Hjh5dDUnce+EgsEQLImgCg35dE4t1fI0oZYldRcZpZGpPFUrUAn0PU q8JZ05LgDE+TVaNwqh6deHYh =EzNu -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat Oct 20 16:18:39 2001 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:52 2005 Subject: Are office people really that, umm shall we say...slow? In-Reply-To: from "Dan Kolb" at Oct 20, 1 09:50:15 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 3896 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20011020/055a550b/attachment.ksh From dankolb at ox.compsoc.net Sat Oct 20 17:07:14 2001 From: dankolb at ox.compsoc.net (Dan Kolb) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:52 2005 Subject: Are office people really that, umm shall we say...slow? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 On Saturday 20 Oct 2001 22:18 pm, Tony Duell wrote: > The latter is not important to me, though. I'd much rather spend n > _thousand_ pounds on a monitor or TV and have a properly built device, > with proper service documetnation, and spares parts that I can go out and > get 10 years later. But apparently I am in the minority here. Possibly. I can't afford spending thousands of pounds on really good equipment while being a student, though. Maybe when I get a proper job.... > What, no screwdrivers or pliers??? Well, screwdrivers, of course. But they're far more essential than a soldering iron, so I generally don't count them when listing tools I've got. It's a given that any self-respecting computer person has a screwdriver set, isn't it? I don't have any pliers here - again, I haven't had a need for them, and I've got quite a few at home. > I've never built a PC from cards. Built enough computers from chips, > though. So I guess I don't know how to make a PC from cards, etc. Or at > least I don't know if I know how to do it :-) It's the trivial 'plug it in where it fits' system, and some people still can't manage it :) > [1] Suicide leads, for example. I hate to mention this on a public list, > but they're a cable with a mains plug at one end and croc clips on the > other. Used for powering up transformers for testing, etc. Totally > lethal, and I don't recomend that anyone here makes a set, OK.... I had something similar where I worked two summers ago - we were looking at the mains supply on a 'scope, and we just used a plug with a couple stripped wires coming out of it. After running it for a bit, we decided to put a piece of plastic over the wires so they wouldn't be touched by accident, and put a warning on a piece of paper. Actually, the company I worked at *recommended* that we go ahead with this method (after we suggested we could try and look at the mains supply with a 'scope). We did have to turn it off and unplug it when the fire safety people came for an inspection, though. Dan - -- dankolb@ox.compsoc.net - --I reserve the right to be completely wrong about any comments or opinions expressed; don't trust everything you read above-- -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: PGP 6.5.8 iQA/AwUBO9H1kpdDUnce+EgsEQK6EQCgpjUTBDoF/vF8/W7H+Dwa4nOBa2QAniQR rdcGTbfD53PnCJUn5xuyMWQ3 =oqoo -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From donm at cts.com Sat Oct 20 18:11:30 2001 From: donm at cts.com (Don Maslin) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:52 2005 Subject: NCR X-Station? Message-ID: At swap today I picked up a neat little package made by AT&T/NCR in the early '90s. The package is 9.75W x 9D x 1.25H and looks rather like a book. The front carries only a push switch and an LED, while the rear has DB25F Parallel, RJ? and DB25F EIA, RJ? AUX, HDE15 VIDEO, and RJ? and OS/2 KEYBOARD connectors plus a concentric power input connector. There is an Intel 80C32 microcontroller, various static RAM chips, and a specialized NCR/ADDS SMD chip that pointed to X-Station information via Google. Anyone ever run across one of these critters and have any information on it? Also picked up a dual port SGX full length network card using DA15M connectors. I was intrigued by it carrying an NEC V50 PLCC chip. First I had seen. - don From wmsmith at earthlink.net Sat Oct 20 18:22:10 2001 From: wmsmith at earthlink.net (Wayne M. Smith) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:52 2005 Subject: Are office people really that, umm shall we say...slow? References: Message-ID: <004d01c159be$0b78a9c0$cab0b2d1@Smith.earthlink.net> > Hmmm... There are some dangerous voltages inside monitors, but equally > there are dangerous voltages in SMPSUs. And in all sorts of other things... > Speaking of which, I'm planning to replace a CRT this weekend and naturally don't want to get a big shock. I've read that one way to discharge a CRT is to use a well insultated screw driver with an alligator clip/wire on the shaft of the driver comnnected to ground, and then insert the end of the driver under the suction cup where the anode meets the tube. Any thoughts on this approach? Also, if neither CRT has been on for a week, how much charge likely remains? From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat Oct 20 18:39:18 2001 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:52 2005 Subject: Are office people really that, umm shall we say...slow? In-Reply-To: from "Dan Kolb" at Oct 20, 1 11:07:14 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 2142 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20011021/cb882725/attachment.ksh From Lee.Davison at merlincommunications.com Sat Oct 20 18:42:08 2001 From: Lee.Davison at merlincommunications.com (Davison, Lee) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:52 2005 Subject: Are office people really that, umm shall we say...slow? Message-ID: <707AA588EE28D311BCD50090276D7D0002146DDA@BUSH02> Speaking of which, I'm planning to replace a CRT this weekend and naturally don't want to get a big shock. I've read that one way to discharge a CRT is to use a well insultated screw driver with an alligator clip/wire on the shaft of the driver comnnected to ground, and then insert the end of the driver under the suction cup where the anode meets the tube. Any thoughts on this approach? Don't connect to ground, connect directly to the wires that rest on the coating on the back of the tube. This will ensure that you discharge the tube. Also, if neither CRT has been on for a week, how much charge likely remains? Up to all of it. Also be aware that a tube that has been disconnected for any length of time may self charge due to electrolyte stresses. Not enough to harm you but enough to make you drop the tube in surprise. Lee. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- ---- This email is intended only for the above named addressee(s). The information contained in this email may contain information which is confidential. The views expressed in this email are personal to the sender and do not in any way reflect the views of the company. If you have received this email and you are not a named addressee please delete it from your system and contact Merlin Communications International IT Department on +44 20 7344 5888. _____________________________________________________________________ This message has been checked for all known viruses by Star Internet delivered through the MessageLabs Virus Scanning Service. For further information visit http://www.star.net.uk/stats.asp or alternatively call Star Internet for details on the Virus Scanning Service. From rhblakeman at kih.net Sat Oct 20 18:50:21 2001 From: rhblakeman at kih.net (Russ Blakeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:52 2005 Subject: Are office people really that, umm shall we say...slow? In-Reply-To: <004d01c159be$0b78a9c0$cab0b2d1@Smith.earthlink.net> Message-ID: Itcan hold a full charge aftre a couple of years, dependant on the circuit it's attached to and it's outside environment. The lead on the long screwdriver is fine, but be sure that you wear well insulated shoes and use only one hand to hold the screwdriver, the other away from the equipment, preferably in your pocket or to your side. If you lean on the chassis with one hand while holding the discharge tool with the other you have a direct path through your arms to your heart, could prove deadly, or at least thrilling for a split second. -> -----Original Message----- -> From: owner-classiccmp@classiccmp.org -> [mailto:owner-classiccmp@classiccmp.org]On Behalf Of Wayne M. Smith -> Sent: Saturday, October 20, 2001 6:22 PM -> To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org -> Subject: Re: Are office people really that, umm shall we say...slow? -> -> -> > Hmmm... There are some dangerous voltages inside monitors, -> but equally -> > there are dangerous voltages in SMPSUs. And in all sorts -> of other things... -> > -> Speaking of which, I'm planning to replace a CRT this -> weekend and naturally don't want to get a big shock. I've -> read that one way to discharge a CRT is to use a well -> insultated screw driver with an alligator clip/wire on the -> shaft of the driver comnnected to ground, and then insert -> the end of the driver under the suction cup where the anode -> meets the tube. Any thoughts on this approach? -> -> Also, if neither CRT has been on for a week, how much charge -> likely remains? -> -> From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat Oct 20 18:51:03 2001 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:52 2005 Subject: Are office people really that, umm shall we say...slow? In-Reply-To: <004d01c159be$0b78a9c0$cab0b2d1@Smith.earthlink.net> from "Wayne M. Smith" at Oct 20, 1 04:22:10 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 2502 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20011021/f419f930/attachment.ksh From ghldbrd at ccp.com Sat Oct 20 20:46:59 2001 From: ghldbrd at ccp.com (Gary Hildebrand) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:52 2005 Subject: anyone in the greater KC area interested in classic computers Message-ID: <3BD22913.1E7A9028@ccp.com> Just wondering you any of you guys know other in the KC Missouri/Kansas area interested in starting an informal classic computer group/club? Within a convenient radius is Omaha, NE, Des Moines, IA, and Topeka KS as well. As the usual sources of older equipment seems to be drying up, maybe those of us with an educated eye can network a bit more efficiently around here. Spread the word and have those parties e-mail me. Gary Hildebrand WA7KKP St. Joseph, MO From jhellige at earthlink.net Sat Oct 20 21:28:01 2001 From: jhellige at earthlink.net (Jeff Hellige) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:52 2005 Subject: Are office people really that, umm shall we say...slow? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: >bent so bad it broke off. Not the usual thing though - I see a lot of RJ11 >telephone plugs stuck into the RJ45 network card jacks. Boy that does a >number on the NIC and the phone system. What gets me going are the people who plug CAT5 cable into IPX phone system jacks. It tends to create a nice little spark/flash due to the the voltages from the phone system and the short caused by the cable. Generally does a number on modems that some unlucky person plugs into the same jack. Jeff -- Home of the TRS-80 Model 2000 FAQ File http://www.cchaven.com http://www.geocities.com/siliconvalley/lakes/6757 From edick at idcomm.com Sat Oct 20 22:26:27 2001 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:52 2005 Subject: OT: Tulip 21041 ethernet driver needed References: <000901c159d7$47b3f020$0101a8c0@jay> <000901c159d7$47b3f020$0101a8c0@jay> <5.1.0.14.2.20011020145743.00a553f0@sokieserv.dhs.org> Message-ID: <001b01c159e0$2b9adbc0$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> I do believe that the early version of the Netgear FA310TX used that chip as well. Dick ----- Original Message ----- From: "John Boffemmyer IV" To: Sent: Saturday, October 20, 2001 1:08 PM Subject: Re: OT: Tulip 21041 ethernet driver needed > Hey Jeff, if the card is PCI, try Kingston.com they make a card, the > EtherRx KNE40BT that has the Tulip chip and the drivers work fine. Also, > the SMC.com SMC PCI EtherPower card is based on the Tulip chip and those > drivers should work. If you need direct links to the drivers for Novell > support, email me at john_boffemmyer_iv@boff-net.dhs.org and I'll send ya > the direct links. > > > BTW: like a sneaky bastard, I found these drivers searching around when I > was looking for my KNE30BT drivers at DEC's WEB SITE! > > http://gatekeeper.dec.com/pub/digital/info/semiconductor/networks-and-communicat ions/software/dsc-software-nc.html > > This INCLUDED specific Novell Client AND Server drivers for Tulips and > various versions, including Novell 3.12!!! > > - John Boffemmyer IV > > At 12:06 PM 10/20/01, you wrote: > > Since we have so many knowledgable DEC people here, I figured I'd > > post this here. I'm in need of driver for Novell Netware 3.12 server for > > a generic DEC 21041-based ethernet board. The actual board manufacturer > > doesn't matter as long as it's for the 21041 chipset or will work with a > > board based on that chipset. > > > > Hey Netware 3.12 is almost on topic! > > > > Jeff > >-- > > Home of the TRS-80 Model 2000 FAQ File > > http://www.cchaven.com > > http://www.geocities.com/siliconvalley/lakes/6757 > > > > ---------------------------------------- > Founder, Lead Writer, Tech Analyst > and Web Designer Boff-Net Technologies > http://boff-net.dhs.org/index.html > --------------------------------------- > > From rdd at smart.net Sat Oct 20 22:57:38 2001 From: rdd at smart.net (R. D. Davis) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:52 2005 Subject: Are office people really that, umm shall we say...slow? In-Reply-To: <200110210152.UAA00629@opal.tseinc.com> Message-ID: "Wayne M. Smith" wrote: > Also, if neither CRT has been on for a week, how much charge > likely remains? Quite possibly a substantial charge... to verify this, perform a case study: convince a clueless office PeeCee "expert", or some random Micro$oft-brained IT manager, to wet their fingers and touch the right places. Figuring out a suitable explanation to make this agreeable to them shouldn't be too difficult - after all, the unit is safely unplugged from the mains socket, right? ;-) This will also demonstrate the correlation between failures of evolution and modern hiring practices. RDD -- Copyright (C) 2001 R. D. Davis The difference between humans & other animals: All Rights Reserved an unnatural belief that we're above Nature & rdd@rddavis.net 410-744-4900 her other creatures, using dogma to justify such http://www.rddavis.net beliefs and to justify much human cruelty. From vze2mnvr at verizon.net Sat Oct 20 23:54:01 2001 From: vze2mnvr at verizon.net (Ian Koller) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:52 2005 Subject: Are office people really that, umm shall we say...slow? References: Message-ID: <3BD254E9.BBC0A038@verizon.net> Hello Dan, > it's only the newest one that the cable broke in. Is it just me, > or does new technology seem much less reliable than old(er) stuff? Look at the price of "new" technology v.s "old(er)" stuff. Cost cutting throws quality right out the window. We've done it to ourselves when we tried to find the lowest price for things, and now that we've made our bed, we must lie in it. Dan Kolb wrote: > > -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- > Hash: SHA1 > > On Saturday 20 Oct 2001 19:59 pm, Tony Duell wrote: > > Connector are cheaper than cables. And they're easier to get. Often the > > monitor end of the cable terminates in some strange PCB connectors, of > > which there are dozens of varients, many of them almost impossible to > > find... > > Thanks :-) I didn't know that. To be quite honest, I can't recall ever having > the need to open up monitors before - so far all the one's I've got have > worked fine - it's only the newest one that the cable broke in. Is it just > me, or does new technology seem much less reliable than old(er) stuff? > > > When I was an undergraduate (admittedly at the other university), I found > > a toolkit to be essential. It's amazing how often you need to fix things. > > I had most common hand tools, a soldering station, solder sucker, > > multimeter, etc in my room. Even a small 'scope. And I needed them... > > To be quite honest, for the very few times I'd need one (possibly once or > twice a year) it's not worth for me to take all the equipment up from home - > it's far easier just to take the faulty item back home and fix it there. I'm > sure you can forgive me not having equipment here (actually, I do have a > soldering iron now, but that's it) :-) > > > The vidoe lines have 75 )hm termination resistors, so you can measure the > > reisstance between the video cable and its screen. If it tests open > > there's a break in the cable. You can normally detect the protection > > diodes on digital lines too with an ohmmeter. So you can, in fact, check > > for broken wires from the plug end of the cable only. > > Thank you. I'll give that a try. > > > > The subject was about 'office people'. Most(?) IT people wouldn't know > > > how to solder a monitor connector, or possibly wouldn't be allowed to by > > > either > > As I said in another message, such IT people get no respect from me... > > I agree. A competent IT guy should be able to fix items like broken > connectors with little effort. And, of course, should be able to build a > computer out of parts (that is, graphics card, CD-ROM, rather than the > individual chips :-) - I'm sure there are people who don't know how to do > that. > > > > their company or Health and Safety (no, I don't know much about > > > Health&Safety > > Then you smuggle in one of those gas-powered soldering irons and fix it > > when the powers-that-be are not watching :-) > > Yup :) Although most people who know me know that I have a very low regard > (none, really) for Health and Safety laws - I watch out where I put stuff, > other people should too (okay, probably not the best thing to admit on a > public forum :-) > > Dan > - -- > dankolb@ox.compsoc.net > > - --I reserve the right to be completely wrong about any comments or > opinions expressed; don't trust everything you read above-- > > -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- > Version: PGP 6.5.8 > > iQA/AwUBO9Hjh5dDUnce+EgsEQLImgCg35dE4t1fI0oZYldRcZpZGpPFUrUAn0PU > q8JZ05LgDE+TVaNwqh6deHYh > =EzNu > -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From acme_ent at bellsouth.net Sun Oct 21 00:25:00 2001 From: acme_ent at bellsouth.net (Glen Goodwin) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:52 2005 Subject: Are office people really that, umm shall we say...slow? Message-ID: <20011021052646.FFMF4673.imf13bis.bellsouth.net@thegoodw> Iggy wrote: > I'm doing a Tony here, but... > Is replacing the connector/cable on a modern monitor so difficult that it > can't be accomplished without sending it away? In many cases, including the situation Russ is referring to, it's a matter of a manufacturers warranty. If I do *anything* to the monitor, and two weeks later the tube dies, the customer has no warranty rights. It's in the customer's best interest for us to send the monitor back to the maker for repair. Glen 0/0 From mikeford at socal.rr.com Sat Oct 20 16:48:46 2001 From: mikeford at socal.rr.com (Mike Ford) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:53 2005 Subject: CoCo 3 hot or hmmm In-Reply-To: References: <000901c159d7$47b3f020$0101a8c0@jay> <000901c159d7$47b3f020$0101a8c0@jay> Message-ID: One of my swapmeet friends showed up today with Radio Shack Color Computer 3 in the original box, is it worth anything? (no clue on condition or completeness etc., but I could look next time). From mikeford at socal.rr.com Sun Oct 21 02:40:24 2001 From: mikeford at socal.rr.com (Mike Ford) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:53 2005 Subject: Are office people really that, umm shall we say...slow? In-Reply-To: References: <5.1.0.14.2.20011020132954.025c65e8@mail.30below.com> from "Roger Merchberger" at Oct 20, 1 01:41:59 pm Message-ID: >Well, IMHO the only way to learn is by doing :-) The lesson I have learned a couple times is don't try that again. ;) Also for me, cables are cheaper than connectors. From foxvideo at wincom.net Sun Oct 21 05:55:10 2001 From: foxvideo at wincom.net (Charles E. Fox) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:53 2005 Subject: Are office people really that, umm shall we say...slow? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20011021065247.00a64900@mail.wincom.net> At 10:18 PM 20/10/2001 +0100, you wrote: >Another thing I agree with you on. I've had several run-ins with safety >officers (one of whom claimed that 5V on exposed wires in a research lab >was dangerous...) We soon learnt how to keep out of their way, and what >to hide [1] when they came round. > >[1] Suicide leads, for example. I hate to mention this on a public list, >but they're a cable with a mains plug at one end and croc clips on the >other. Used for powering up transformers for testing, etc. Totally >lethal, and I don't recomend that anyone here makes a set, OK.... > >-tony Very handy, Tony. Probably not as lethal on our 110 as on your 220, but careless operation can result in a short course in arc welding. Cheers Charlie Fox Chas E. Fox Video Productions 793 Argyle Rd. Windsor ON N8Y 3J8 foxvideo@wincom.net Check out: Camcorder Kindergarten at http://chasfoxvideo.com From pete at dunnington.u-net.com Sun Oct 21 06:28:55 2001 From: pete at dunnington.u-net.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:53 2005 Subject: DEC Lab 11/40 Message-ID: <10110211228.ZM16666@mindy.dunnington.u-net.com> On Thursday I took possession of a DEC Lab 11/40 system. I've not had time to clean it up and check it out yet, but it was reputedly working when last used (well, I suppose it would have been, wouldn't it?). Actually, that's not quite true, as I'm told someone plugged a terminal in the wrong way, apparently blew something up, and got no output -- I hope they mean something simple like the RS232 line drivers have gone. The system consists of two racks about 4' high. One contains the 11/40 in a 12U box, with a power controller below and an LPS11 above. The other contains a pair of RK05 drives and power controller. There's a GT11 display on the top of the 11/40 rack, and a TS03 magtape unit on the other. The system came with stacks of documentation but only one RK05 pack. I've not had time to make a thorough inventory of the docs yet, but they seem to include most of the processor/memory/interface engineering drawings and maintenance manuals, and something like four complete or almost complete sets of RT-11 manuals, for various vintages from 2.0 to 4.0. Also a pile of printed MAINDEC listings (no microfiche, sadly. Anybody got any microfiche they want to pass on?) I've not had time to do anything yet, apart from check the boards in the 11/40 (pretty standard, with EIS but not FIS, no stack limit register or MMU, no KM11, but it does have the KW11-L programmable LTC). It has a DL11-A (20mA interface for console) and a DL11-something (RS232), 2 x 16KW core sets in one backplane, a DUP11-A synchronous interface (what can I use this for?), a TMB11 tape controller, and an RK11-D controller for the drives. The last backplane in the box contains cards not listed in the Field Guide (neither are the memory cards in this machine, so I'll send Megan an update) but I think they're for the GT11: M7014-YA, A320, and M7013, all hex-height. I've had a very cursory look over the machine, and the only things I notice that want some attention before I think about powering it up are a section of frayed insulation on the power loom to the BA-11 box, a lot of dust everywhere (how surprising!), and some kinks in the unibus cable that connects to the RK05s. I plan to vacuum out the dust, ix the insulation, and check the PSUs before I do anything else. I'm no Unibus or RK05 expert; most of my -11s are Q-bus. What else should I look for before I go too far? I mentioned I only got one disk pack -- it's an original RT-11 distribution and I don't want to risk that in an unknown drive. Anyway, I know for a fact it's been dropped (the owner told me). I have since acquired 4 more packs, three of which came from the same machine originally. Anything I should look out for before trying them? I thought it might be wise to check the RK05 heads and perhaps clena them with IPA before I do anything else. -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager University of York From pete at dunnington.u-net.com Sun Oct 21 06:28:57 2001 From: pete at dunnington.u-net.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:53 2005 Subject: PowerWare 6000 UPS Message-ID: <10110211228.ZM16670@mindy.dunnington.u-net.com> Probably off-topic due to (lack of) age, but... I have inherited a PowerWare Prestige 6000 UPS. Anyone have any experience of these? It doesn't seem to like my mains supply. It trips the 16A (240V supply) breaker as soon as I turn it on, whether I have two, one, or no battery packs connected, and with or without any load. I've followed the procedures in the manual. It's rated for 19A at 240V, so I'm going to try a larger breaker; I'm told it always did have a large switch-on surge. Any other clues? -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager University of York From pete at dunnington.u-net.com Sun Oct 21 07:03:33 2001 From: pete at dunnington.u-net.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:53 2005 Subject: List Maintenance In-Reply-To: "Jay West" "List Maintenance" (Oct 20, 21:22) References: <000901c159d7$47b3f020$0101a8c0@jay> Message-ID: <10110211303.ZM16710@mindy.dunnington.u-net.com> On Oct 20, 21:22, Jay West wrote: > Thanks for your patience & understanding as we improve our infrastructure. This is perhaps an opportune moment to thank you for all the time, effort and resources you have put into hosting the list and the archive. Some time ago, there was a discussion about address munging. I've noticed recently (ie the last few months) a large increase in spam arriving here, possibly correlated to my postings to the list. It not a really big deal, but I wondered if it's possible to anti-spamify my email address in list postings? > We will also be updating the software that > pulls all the classiccmp posts into the archive at www.classiccmp.org > and I think the new version has a search function built in. That would be nice! -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager University of York From tlindner at ix.netcom.com Sun Oct 21 07:42:42 2001 From: tlindner at ix.netcom.com (tim lindner) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:53 2005 Subject: CoCo 3 hot or hmmm Message-ID: <1208454331-5227995@watermarkpress.com> > One of my swapmeet friends showed up today with Radio Shack Color Computer > 3 in the original box, is it worth anything? (no clue on condition or > completeness etc., but I could look next time). I think they are cool. But then I have been acquiring CoCo stuff for the last twenty-one years! A 128K CoCo 3 with box and manuals is probably worth $25.00. -- tim lindner tlindner@ix.netcom.com "Life. Don't talk to me about life." - Marvin, the android From bshannon at tiac.net Sun Oct 21 08:41:07 2001 From: bshannon at tiac.net (Bob Shannon) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:53 2005 Subject: DEC Lab 11/40 References: <10110211228.ZM16666@mindy.dunnington.u-net.com> Message-ID: <3BD2D073.2E191A48@tiac.net> Ah, you have a VT-11! Very collectable! Pete Turnbull wrote: > On Thursday I took possession of a DEC Lab 11/40 system. I've not had time > to clean it up and check it out yet, but it was reputedly working when last > used (well, I suppose it would have been, wouldn't it?). > > Actually, that's not quite true, as I'm told someone plugged a terminal in > the wrong way, apparently blew something up, and got no output -- I hope > they mean something simple like the RS232 line drivers have gone. > > The system consists of two racks about 4' high. One contains the 11/40 in > a 12U box, with a power controller below and an LPS11 above. The other > contains a pair of RK05 drives and power controller. There's a GT11 > display on the top of the 11/40 rack, and a TS03 magtape unit on the other. > The system came with stacks of documentation but only one RK05 pack. I've > not had time to make a thorough inventory of the docs yet, but they seem to > include most of the processor/memory/interface engineering drawings and > maintenance manuals, and something like four complete or almost complete > sets of RT-11 manuals, for various vintages from 2.0 to 4.0. Also a pile > of printed MAINDEC listings (no microfiche, sadly. Anybody got any > microfiche they want to pass on?) > > I've not had time to do anything yet, apart from check the boards in the > 11/40 (pretty standard, with EIS but not FIS, no stack limit register or > MMU, no KM11, but it does have the KW11-L programmable LTC). It has a > DL11-A (20mA interface for console) and a DL11-something (RS232), 2 x 16KW > core sets in one backplane, a DUP11-A synchronous interface (what can I use > this for?), a TMB11 tape controller, and an RK11-D controller for the > drives. The last backplane in the box contains cards not listed in the > Field Guide (neither are the memory cards in this machine, so I'll send > Megan an update) but I think they're for the GT11: M7014-YA, A320, and > M7013, all hex-height. > > I've had a very cursory look over the machine, and the only things I notice > that want some attention before I think about powering it up are a section > of frayed insulation on the power loom to the BA-11 box, a lot of dust > everywhere (how surprising!), and some kinks in the unibus cable that > connects to the RK05s. I plan to vacuum out the dust, ix the insulation, > and check the PSUs before I do anything else. I'm no Unibus or RK05 > expert; most of my -11s are Q-bus. What else should I look for before I go > too far? > > I mentioned I only got one disk pack -- it's an original RT-11 distribution > and I don't want to risk that in an unknown drive. Anyway, I know for a > fact it's been dropped (the owner told me). I have since acquired 4 more > packs, three of which came from the same machine originally. Anything I > should look out for before trying them? I thought it might be wise to > check the RK05 heads and perhaps clena them with IPA before I do anything > else. > > -- > Pete Peter Turnbull > Network Manager > University of York From spectre at stockholm.ptloma.edu Sun Oct 21 09:42:04 2001 From: spectre at stockholm.ptloma.edu (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:53 2005 Subject: List Maintenance In-Reply-To: <10110211303.ZM16710@mindy.dunnington.u-net.com> from Pete Turnbull at "Oct 21, 1 12:03:33 pm" Message-ID: <200110211442.HAA11328@stockholm.ptloma.edu> > Some time ago, there was a discussion about address munging. I've noticed > recently (ie the last few months) a large increase in spam arriving here, > possibly correlated to my postings to the list. It not a really big deal, > but I wondered if it's possible to anti-spamify my email address in list > postings? I would also appreciate some sort of address obscuring. -- ----------------------------- personal page: http://www.armory.com/~spectre/ -- Cameron Kaiser, Point Loma Nazarene University * ckaiser@stockholm.ptloma.edu -- Maturity is only a short break in adolescence. -- Jules Feiffer ------------ From kevin at xpuppy.freeserve.co.uk Sun Oct 21 09:40:31 2001 From: kevin at xpuppy.freeserve.co.uk (Kevin Murrell) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:53 2005 Subject: DEC Lab 11/40 In-Reply-To: <10110211228.ZM16666@mindy.dunnington.u-net.com> Message-ID: Good news about another 11 rescued in the UK! Quick point about the cables to the RK05s - they look the same as the unibus cables, but DO NOT plug into the bus! If we can help with some more RK05 packs and a copy of RT-11 let me know. Kevin Murrell > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-classiccmp@classiccmp.org > [mailto:owner-classiccmp@classiccmp.org]On Behalf Of Pete Turnbull > Sent: 21 October 2001 12:29 > To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers > Subject: DEC Lab 11/40 > > > On Thursday I took possession of a DEC Lab 11/40 system. I've > not had time > to clean it up and check it out yet, but it was reputedly working > when last > used (well, I suppose it would have been, wouldn't it?). > > Actually, that's not quite true, as I'm told someone plugged a terminal in > the wrong way, apparently blew something up, and got no output -- I hope > they mean something simple like the RS232 line drivers have gone. > > The system consists of two racks about 4' high. One contains the 11/40 in > a 12U box, with a power controller below and an LPS11 above. The other > contains a pair of RK05 drives and power controller. There's a GT11 > display on the top of the 11/40 rack, and a TS03 magtape unit on > the other. > The system came with stacks of documentation but only one RK05 > pack. I've > not had time to make a thorough inventory of the docs yet, but > they seem to > include most of the processor/memory/interface engineering drawings and > maintenance manuals, and something like four complete or almost complete > sets of RT-11 manuals, for various vintages from 2.0 to 4.0. Also a pile > of printed MAINDEC listings (no microfiche, sadly. Anybody got any > microfiche they want to pass on?) > > I've not had time to do anything yet, apart from check the boards in the > 11/40 (pretty standard, with EIS but not FIS, no stack limit register or > MMU, no KM11, but it does have the KW11-L programmable LTC). It has a > DL11-A (20mA interface for console) and a DL11-something (RS232), 2 x 16KW > core sets in one backplane, a DUP11-A synchronous interface (what > can I use > this for?), a TMB11 tape controller, and an RK11-D controller for the > drives. The last backplane in the box contains cards not listed in the > Field Guide (neither are the memory cards in this machine, so I'll send > Megan an update) but I think they're for the GT11: M7014-YA, A320, and > M7013, all hex-height. > > I've had a very cursory look over the machine, and the only > things I notice > that want some attention before I think about powering it up are a section > of frayed insulation on the power loom to the BA-11 box, a lot of dust > everywhere (how surprising!), and some kinks in the unibus cable that > connects to the RK05s. I plan to vacuum out the dust, ix the insulation, > and check the PSUs before I do anything else. I'm no Unibus or RK05 > expert; most of my -11s are Q-bus. What else should I look for > before I go > too far? > > I mentioned I only got one disk pack -- it's an original RT-11 > distribution > and I don't want to risk that in an unknown drive. Anyway, I know for a > fact it's been dropped (the owner told me). I have since acquired 4 more > packs, three of which came from the same machine originally. Anything I > should look out for before trying them? I thought it might be wise to > check the RK05 heads and perhaps clena them with IPA before I do anything > else. > > -- > Pete Peter Turnbull > Network Manager > University of York > From vze2wsvr at verizon.net Sun Oct 21 10:20:58 2001 From: vze2wsvr at verizon.net (Eric Chomko) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:53 2005 Subject: CoCo 3 hot or hmmm References: <1208454331-5227995@watermarkpress.com> Message-ID: <3BD2E7DA.C9AC50@mail.verizon.net> I'd pay $25 for it, maybe a little more but not a lot more. It seems that when I find a CoCo it is either a CoCo 1 or a CoCo 2. Eric tim lindner wrote: > > One of my swapmeet friends showed up today with Radio Shack Color Computer > > 3 in the original box, is it worth anything? (no clue on condition or > > completeness etc., but I could look next time). > > I think they are cool. But then I have been acquiring CoCo stuff for the > last twenty-one years! > > A 128K CoCo 3 with box and manuals is probably worth $25.00. > > -- > tim lindner tlindner@ix.netcom.com > > "Life. Don't talk to me about life." - Marvin, the android From mythtech at Mac.com Sun Oct 21 10:22:09 2001 From: mythtech at Mac.com (Chris) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:53 2005 Subject: List Maintenance Message-ID: >Some time ago, there was a discussion about address munging. I've noticed >recently (ie the last few months) a large increase in spam arriving here, >possibly correlated to my postings to the list. It not a really big deal, >but I wondered if it's possible to anti-spamify my email address in list >postings? This (mine) email address is ONLY used for list subscriptions. I recieve NO outside spam to this address. That tells me that no one has harvested addresses from the list (or any list I am on). HOWEVER... I do recieve from time to time spam addressed TO the list (and thus it ends up at this address). No amount of address obscuring to solve that, as it isn't addressed to "you" but to the list, and thus proxied to you. Not that I am against address obscuring (since this list replies to the list, and not to the person, so it doesn't become an annoyance). Just thought I would mention my findings on the topic. Unsubscribing the spammer might slow them down a bit (at least then, their messages would be bounced first) -chris From vze2wsvr at verizon.net Sun Oct 21 10:54:27 2001 From: vze2wsvr at verizon.net (Eric Chomko) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:53 2005 Subject: CoCo I (gilded, maybe?) was Re: CoCo 3 hot or hmmm References: <1208454331-5227995@watermarkpress.com> <3BD2E7DA.C9AC50@mail.verizon.net> Message-ID: <3BD2EFB3.361A6C29@mail.verizon.net> This guy on eBay seems to think CoCos are worth a lot more. His feedback count speaks volumes. Enjoy! http://cgi.ebay.com/aw-cgi/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=1287368755 Eric Chomko wrote: > I'd pay $25 for it, maybe a little more but not a lot more. It seems that when I > find > a CoCo it is either a CoCo 1 or a CoCo 2. > > Eric > > tim lindner wrote: > > > > One of my swapmeet friends showed up today with Radio Shack Color Computer > > > 3 in the original box, is it worth anything? (no clue on condition or > > > completeness etc., but I could look next time). > > > > I think they are cool. But then I have been acquiring CoCo stuff for the > > last twenty-one years! > > > > A 128K CoCo 3 with box and manuals is probably worth $25.00. > > > > -- > > tim lindner tlindner@ix.netcom.com > > > > "Life. Don't talk to me about life." - Marvin, the android From jhellige at earthlink.net Sun Oct 21 11:20:12 2001 From: jhellige at earthlink.net (Jeff Hellige) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:53 2005 Subject: OT: Tulip 21041 ethernet driver needed In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20011020145743.00a553f0@sokieserv.dhs.org> References: <000901c159d7$47b3f020$0101a8c0@jay> <000901c159d7$47b3f020$0101a8c0@jay> <5.1.0.14.2.20011020145743.00a553f0@sokieserv.dhs.org> Message-ID: >BTW: like a sneaky bastard, I found these drivers searching around >when I was looking for my KNE30BT drivers at DEC's WEB SITE! > >http://gatekeeper.dec.com/pub/digital/info/semiconductor/networks-and-communications/software/dsc-software-nc.html > >This INCLUDED specific Novell Client AND Server drivers for Tulips >and various versions, including Novell 3.12!!! Thanks John, that did the trick. I spent part of yesterday installing 3.12 (10 user) off of floppy disks onto VPC here on my G3. It has a 100MB SYS partition and a 1.9GB DATA partition, both partitions as disk files that expand as needed up to their max size but which otherwise don't take up any more space on the disk than the total for the data on them. Using the driver you pointed to above, I got my NeXT to connect to the 3.12 server using the Netware client included with NeXTstep 3.3. Now all I have to do is figure out what I've set wrong on the Appletalk setup and to figure out why the SYS partition keeps trashing one of it's FAT tables. Take care Jeff -- Home of the TRS-80 Model 2000 FAQ File http://www.cchaven.com http://www.geocities.com/siliconvalley/lakes/6757 From dittman at directlink.net Sun Oct 21 11:32:41 2001 From: dittman at directlink.net (Eric Dittman) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:53 2005 Subject: email problems Message-ID: <200110211632.f9LGWfQ12209@narnia.int.dittman.net> Those of you I've been communicating with, my email is having problems due to my new ISP (GTE/Verizon) having messed up my DNS entries and not having any weekend DNS support (that sure surprised me!). If you need to contact me and mail to my usual email fails, try dittman@directlink.net. Thanks. -- Eric Dittman dittman@dittman.net Check out the DEC Enthusiasts Club at http://www.dittman.net/ From jhellige at earthlink.net Sun Oct 21 11:57:04 2001 From: jhellige at earthlink.net (Jeff Hellige) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:53 2005 Subject: email problems In-Reply-To: <200110211632.f9LGWfQ12209@narnia.int.dittman.net> References: <200110211632.f9LGWfQ12209@narnia.int.dittman.net> Message-ID: >Those of you I've been communicating with, my email is having >problems due to my new ISP (GTE/Verizon) having messed up my >DNS entries and not having any weekend DNS support (that sure >surprised me!). If you need to contact me and mail to my >usual email fails, try dittman@directlink.net. Gotta love Verizon. A couple of weeks ago they accidentally knocked my phone offline on Friday and didn't get it turned back on until Monday evening. Dealing with their customer service was less than pleasent. Jeff -- Home of the TRS-80 Model 2000 FAQ File http://www.cchaven.com http://www.geocities.com/siliconvalley/lakes/6757 From spedraja at ono.com Sun Oct 21 12:04:34 2001 From: spedraja at ono.com (SP) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:53 2005 Subject: DEC Lab 11/40 Message-ID: <001d01c15a52$75cbe780$0301a8c0@marga> The day I could get one complete from the UK I'll can't believe it. Good luck and Greetings Sergio Pedraja Santander Spain -----Mensaje original----- De: Kevin Murrell Para: classiccmp@classiccmp.org Fecha: domingo, 21 de octubre de 2001 17:05 Asunto: RE: DEC Lab 11/40 >Good news about another 11 rescued in the UK! > >Quick point about the cables to the RK05s - they look the same as the unibus >cables, but DO NOT plug into the bus! > >If we can help with some more RK05 packs and a copy of RT-11 let me know. > >Kevin Murrell > >> -----Original Message----- >> From: owner-classiccmp@classiccmp.org >> [mailto:owner-classiccmp@classiccmp.org]On Behalf Of Pete Turnbull >> Sent: 21 October 2001 12:29 >> To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers >> Subject: DEC Lab 11/40 >> >> >> On Thursday I took possession of a DEC Lab 11/40 system. I've >> not had time >> to clean it up and check it out yet, but it was reputedly working >> when last >> used (well, I suppose it would have been, wouldn't it?). >> >> Actually, that's not quite true, as I'm told someone plugged a terminal in >> the wrong way, apparently blew something up, and got no output -- I hope >> they mean something simple like the RS232 line drivers have gone. >> >> The system consists of two racks about 4' high. One contains the 11/40 in >> a 12U box, with a power controller below and an LPS11 above. The other >> contains a pair of RK05 drives and power controller. There's a GT11 >> display on the top of the 11/40 rack, and a TS03 magtape unit on >> the other. >> The system came with stacks of documentation but only one RK05 >> pack. I've >> not had time to make a thorough inventory of the docs yet, but >> they seem to >> include most of the processor/memory/interface engineering drawings and >> maintenance manuals, and something like four complete or almost complete >> sets of RT-11 manuals, for various vintages from 2.0 to 4.0. Also a pile >> of printed MAINDEC listings (no microfiche, sadly. Anybody got any >> microfiche they want to pass on?) >> >> I've not had time to do anything yet, apart from check the boards in the >> 11/40 (pretty standard, with EIS but not FIS, no stack limit register or >> MMU, no KM11, but it does have the KW11-L programmable LTC). It has a >> DL11-A (20mA interface for console) and a DL11-something (RS232), 2 x 16KW >> core sets in one backplane, a DUP11-A synchronous interface (what >> can I use >> this for?), a TMB11 tape controller, and an RK11-D controller for the >> drives. The last backplane in the box contains cards not listed in the >> Field Guide (neither are the memory cards in this machine, so I'll send >> Megan an update) but I think they're for the GT11: M7014-YA, A320, and >> M7013, all hex-height. >> >> I've had a very cursory look over the machine, and the only >> things I notice >> that want some attention before I think about powering it up are a section >> of frayed insulation on the power loom to the BA-11 box, a lot of dust >> everywhere (how surprising!), and some kinks in the unibus cable that >> connects to the RK05s. I plan to vacuum out the dust, ix the insulation, >> and check the PSUs before I do anything else. I'm no Unibus or RK05 >> expert; most of my -11s are Q-bus. What else should I look for >> before I go >> too far? >> >> I mentioned I only got one disk pack -- it's an original RT-11 >> distribution >> and I don't want to risk that in an unknown drive. Anyway, I know for a >> fact it's been dropped (the owner told me). I have since acquired 4 more >> packs, three of which came from the same machine originally. Anything I >> should look out for before trying them? I thought it might be wise to >> check the RK05 heads and perhaps clena them with IPA before I do anything >> else. >> >> -- >> Pete Peter Turnbull >> Network Manager >> University of York >> > > From jhfine at idirect.com Sun Oct 21 13:04:42 2001 From: jhfine at idirect.com (Jerome Fine) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:54 2005 Subject: DEC Lab 11/40 References: <10110211228.ZM16666@mindy.dunnington.u-net.com> Message-ID: <3BD30E3A.356619C6@idirect.com> >Pete Turnbull wrote: > On Thursday I took possession of a DEC Lab 11/40 system. I've not had time > to clean it up and check it out yet, but it was reputedly working when last > used (well, I suppose it would have been, wouldn't it?). > [Snip] > I've had a very cursory look over the machine, and the only things I notice > that want some attention before I think about powering it up are a section > of frayed insulation on the power loom to the BA-11 box, a lot of dust > everywhere (how surprising!), and some kinks in the unibus cable that > connects to the RK05s. I plan to vacuum out the dust, ix the insulation, > and check the PSUs before I do anything else. I'm no Unibus or RK05 > expert; most of my -11s are Q-bus. What else should I look for before I go > too far? Jerome Fine replies: Sounds like quite a find - after all this time. I also had not thought that there were many Unibus 11s left in working condition (or close). But last month, I had the opportunity to pick up some Unibus hardware. Unfortunately, I don't have the physical strength or the help to manage them. I stick to only the Qbus versions. > I mentioned I only got one disk pack -- it's an original RT-11 distribution > and I don't want to risk that in an unknown drive. Anyway, I know for a > fact it's been dropped (the owner told me). I have since acquired 4 more > packs, three of which came from the same machine originally. Anything I > should look out for before trying them? I thought it might be wise to > check the RK05 heads and perhaps clena them with IPA before I do anything > else. I did accept an RK05 drive and hopefully a working (or will be working in the future) Qbus controller. Cleaning the heads was not too difficult - just remove the top cover with a wide slot screwdriver. The heads are very large and easy to see and wipe clean. I also accepted a number of RK05 packs. I would like to read them, but the Qbus controller is not connected as yet. Can anyone provide some helpful hints as to what I need to look for in respect of the Qbus stuff. It is non-DEC, of course. Right now I have a system with an RL02 drive that I also plan to use with the RK05 and hopefully a SCSI host adapter. That will allow me to connect a magneto optical drive and slip in a cartridge. So eventually, all the files on the RK05 packs can be transferred to a magneto optical cartridge which is only ten years old. At that point, I go off topic as the next step would be a CDR for longer archival storage. But first I need to get the RK05 working! HELP!! Please!!! Sincerely yours, Jerome Fine From jhfine at idirect.com Sun Oct 21 13:06:29 2001 From: jhfine at idirect.com (Jerome Fine) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:54 2005 Subject: List Maintenance References: <000901c159d7$47b3f020$0101a8c0@jay> Message-ID: <3BD30EA4.DFF3A450@idirect.com> >Jay West wrote: > Greetings; > 1) Reverse DNS has suddenly stopped working for our netblocks. It appears > this happened a bit ago but really started manifesting itself recently > because the old cached up queries have started to expire. In general terms > this usually isn't THAT big of a deal, but some mail servers these days > won't handle mail from a system that fails a reverse lookup. The problem > isn't with us, it is two hops above us that they have their in-addr.arpa > delegation down to us broken. I'm trying to get them to fix this as soon as > possible. > 2) We are in the process of reloading our entire set of servers from scratch > that comprise our internet service. This means upgrading EVERYTHING > including all layered software products. This will take some time as it will > mean fresh installs of 30 some odd FreeBSD machines. Most all the servers > have failover systems, but this list runs on a single machine. While we will > do our very best to prevent any interruptions to classiccmp list traffic, it > is probable that during the upgrade classiccmp service may be intermittent. > We expect to do the machine handling this list around the middle or end of > this coming week. This will certainly get us up to the latest version of > majordomo, which I believe has some speed enhancements for delivery of large > lists of outbound messages. We will also be updating the software that > pulls all the classiccmp posts into the archive at www.classiccmp.org and I > think the new version has a search function built in. > Thanks for your patience & understanding as we improve our infrastructure. > Regards, > Jay West Jerome Fine replies: Thank you Jay for the continued service!! From ebay at gowebway.com Sun Oct 21 13:35:45 2001 From: ebay at gowebway.com (EBAY) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:54 2005 Subject: Looking for Videobrain system Message-ID: <01c601c15a5f$3341d570$6301a8c0@the8088> Picked one of these up today, didn't know what it was so figured it had to be good. Looks like that was a good bet. If anyone has carts, power supply, or joysticks for this that they'd like to sell, please contact me. If anyone want to place an offer for it, please send them to ebay@gowebway.com. I will be placing this item on ebay once I am certain it works. I will let you know when I list it if you send me an email. Thanks for any info. From spc at conman.org Sun Oct 21 14:06:47 2001 From: spc at conman.org (Sean 'Captain Napalm' Conner) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:54 2005 Subject: email problems In-Reply-To: from "Jeff Hellige" at Oct 21, 2001 12:57:04 PM Message-ID: <200110211906.PAA06983@conman.org> It was thus said that the Great Jeff Hellige once stated: > > Gotta love Verizon. A couple of weeks ago they accidentally > knocked my phone offline on Friday and didn't get it turned back on > until Monday evening. Dealing with their customer service was less > than pleasent. You might want to talk with the utilities board (or whatever body regulates the phone companies); cutting you off from 911 is a potential liability they have (911 processing is handled differently in phone switches and has high or critical priority over anything else in a phone switch). And anytime you start having problems, take names, and threaten to call said utilities board. -spc (I haven't met anyone that actually likes Verizon ... ) From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun Oct 21 14:37:07 2001 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:54 2005 Subject: Are office people really that, umm shall we say...slow? In-Reply-To: from "Mike Ford" at Oct 21, 1 00:40:24 am Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 666 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20011021/6a1aad50/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun Oct 21 14:57:31 2001 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:54 2005 Subject: DEC Lab 11/40 In-Reply-To: <3BD30E3A.356619C6@idirect.com> from "Jerome Fine" at Oct 21, 1 02:04:42 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 902 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20011021/5036fd60/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun Oct 21 14:52:48 2001 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:54 2005 Subject: DEC Lab 11/40 In-Reply-To: <10110211228.ZM16666@mindy.dunnington.u-net.com> from "Pete Turnbull" at Oct 21, 1 11:28:55 am Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 5163 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20011021/402c1b29/attachment.ksh From mikeford at socal.rr.com Sun Oct 21 14:10:35 2001 From: mikeford at socal.rr.com (Mike Ford) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:54 2005 Subject: List Maintenance In-Reply-To: <10110211303.ZM16710@mindy.dunnington.u-net.com> References: "Jay West" "List Maintenance" (Oct 20, 21:22) <000901c159d7$47b3f020$0101a8c0@jay> Message-ID: >Some time ago, there was a discussion about address munging. I've noticed >recently (ie the last few months) a large increase in spam arriving here, >possibly correlated to my postings to the list. It not a really big deal, >but I wondered if it's possible to anti-spamify my email address in list >postings? This fear of spam always amazes me. I sign up at every idiot contest site I find on the web (I won $3 of gas from Havoline), and I never get more than half a dozen spam emails a day out of a hundred or so real emails on important topics like replaceing the cord vs connector. Just hit delete, or in the case of "real" spam drop the email into one of the antispam sites and let the software go after the sender. From mikeford at socal.rr.com Sun Oct 21 14:25:50 2001 From: mikeford at socal.rr.com (Mike Ford) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:54 2005 Subject: CoCo 3 hot or hmmm In-Reply-To: <1208454331-5227995@watermarkpress.com> Message-ID: >> One of my swapmeet friends showed up today with Radio Shack Color Computer >> 3 in the original box, is it worth anything? (no clue on condition or >> completeness etc., but I could look next time). > >I think they are cool. But then I have been acquiring CoCo stuff for the >last twenty-one years! > >A 128K CoCo 3 with box and manuals is probably worth $25.00. I should mention my friend will be at TRW on the east end of the second row in a white old UCI van this and most likely every last Saturday of the month. From mikeford at socal.rr.com Sun Oct 21 14:54:37 2001 From: mikeford at socal.rr.com (Mike Ford) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:54 2005 Subject: CoCo I (gilded, maybe?) was Re: CoCo 3 hot or hmmm In-Reply-To: <3BD2EFB3.361A6C29@mail.verizon.net> References: <1208454331-5227995@watermarkpress.com> <3BD2E7DA.C9AC50@mail.verizon.net> Message-ID: >This guy on eBay seems to think CoCos are worth a lot more. >His feedback count speaks volumes. Enjoy! > >http://cgi.ebay.com/aw-cgi/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=1287368755 His includes two games, and my friend doesn't have the monitor. From gwynp at artware.qc.ca Sun Oct 21 15:27:05 2001 From: gwynp at artware.qc.ca (gwynp@artware.qc.ca) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:54 2005 Subject: OT: Tulip 21041 ethernet driver needed In-Reply-To: <001b01c159e0$2b9adbc0$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> Message-ID: On 21-Oct-2001 Richard Erlacher wrote: > I do believe that the early version of the Netgear FA310TX used that > chip as well. Yep. I should have the discs that came with a FA310TX around here somewhere if needed. -Philip From pricomu at compuserve.de Sun Oct 21 15:47:05 2001 From: pricomu at compuserve.de (PRICOMU) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:54 2005 Subject: Archiving floppies? / rawread - rawrite References: <4.3.2.7.2.20010922144945.01e3b4c8@mail.azstarnet.com> <20010923011729.A5866@Xtrmntr.org> Message-ID: <002a01c15a71$bfb50380$030aa8c0@computer2> Always on the search for tools which are essential and written in English language today I tested rawread / rawrite which was suggested by "salo". Unfortunately I had to find out that these tools DON?T WORK with 5,25" which have a capacity of 360 KB! Any suggestions? I would prefer a tool / utility which runs under MS-DOS, supports all standard formats and creates an EXE-file so that noone needs to have the tool to restore the saved disk. Thanks in advance Thomas ----- Original Message ----- From: "salo" To: Sent: Sunday, September 23, 2001 1:17 AM Subject: Re: Archiving floppies? > On Sat, Sep 22, 2001 at 02:51:38PM -0700, Gordon Zaft wrote: > > > > Does anyone have any recommendations on software (preferably free) for > > archiving old DOS floppies? What I'd like to do is to be able to make disk > > images of all (okay, maybe just 'many') of the old DOS floppies I have so > > that if they disks get trashed or the bits fall off I can remake 'em. I'm > > assuming I'd probably be making these archives from a Windoze box although > > DOS or even FreeBSD or Linux is a possibility. > > rawrite / rawread > > e.g. downloadable from: > > http://hubble.physik.uni-konstanz.de/jkrueger/windows/rawrite.exe > http://hubble.physik.uni-konstanz.de/jkrueger/windows/rawread.exe > > or dd in any generic *nix. > > regards, > > -- > -- salo ASCII Ribbon campaign against /"\ -- > -- e-mail in gratuitous HTML and \ -- > -- Microsoft proprietary formats X -- > -- http://Xtrmntr.org/salo.pgp / -- From ms at silke.rt.schwaben.de Sun Oct 21 15:49:55 2001 From: ms at silke.rt.schwaben.de (Michael Schneider) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:54 2005 Subject: VAX 11/730 Problem Message-ID: <3BD334F3.BCAE157D@silke.rt.schwaben.de> Hello to all VAXenfolks, i do have a problem with a VAX-11/730 that i have reconstructed (cleaned, resoldered, replaced cable, everything. Pictures on www.vaxcluster.de. Yes, i am a bit proud of it... But sorry for the bad web-page design!) over the last few months. It is now willing to boot and tries to load it's microcode tape from the TU-58 drives. I even have a microcode tape which looks like it could be still readable. But the TU-58's are so battered that i have not been able to read the tape. I have repaced the rubber rollers, but the read/write-heads look, ummm, bad! I have found somewhere some TU-58 simulator software for DOS which looks like a promising alternative; i would place a mini-DOS-computer inside a VT-102 and route some additional cables to the VAX and bee fine. BUT: How do i get the contents of the microcode tape of the tape, into a DOS file without access to a working TU-58? Is someone on this list able to read the tape? Has someone already made a tape image i could just use? I mean, i have a original DEC tape, with serial number and all. I might even come up with a license document, if i search long enough... Any help would be greatly welcomed. This old lady is just to beautifull to use it as an electric heater only... Thank you ms -- Michael Schneider email: ms@silke.rt.schwaben.de Germany http://www.vaxcluster.de People disagree with me. I just ignore them. (Linus Torvalds) From zaft at azstarnet.com Sun Oct 21 16:34:01 2001 From: zaft at azstarnet.com (Gordon Zaft) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:54 2005 Subject: OT: power & ground for wirewrap boards Message-ID: <4.3.2.7.2.20011021143052.020ead60@mail.azstarnet.com> Gang, Sorry for the offtopic post, but I need y'alls expertise... I've got a wirewrap SBC that I'm working on (6502-based system). I've got my wirewrapping skills down pretty well and that part is not a problem. For the power and ground connections for each chip, a friend suggested I should solder 16-gauge wire from a tie point or the power connector straight to each chip and/or its bypass cap. The only 16-gauge wire I have is stranded, and it's a mess to work with -- too large to work with easily and the strands mean it won't really bend and stay on the tie point or pin. Can someone who's done this successfully tell me how I should do this? Thanks! Gordon From clandrum at monumental.com Sun Oct 21 17:10:16 2001 From: clandrum at monumental.com (Craig Landrum) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:54 2005 Subject: GenRad Futuredata Message-ID: <3BD347C2.99FD82B1@monumental.com> I have two Genrad Futuredata 2300 systems and accompanying software and am hunting for other owners. Specifically, I am looking for a 2716 or 2732 EPROM burner that these units supported. This was a small box with a ZIF socket that conected to a Microkit board on the Futuredata S100 bus. I have software for these machines and can exchange for leads on an EPROM box. - Craig Landrum CTO Mindwrap, Inc. home: clandrum@monumental.com work: craigl@mindwrap.com 540-675-3015 x 229 From ysgdhio at yahoo.com Sun Oct 21 17:20:21 2001 From: ysgdhio at yahoo.com (ysgdhio) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:54 2005 Subject: what RAM for this printer memory board? Message-ID: <20011021182020.A16575@spies.com> I just got a memory board for my HP IIIp. The board only has 2MB on it, but there are 2 rows of empty 20-pin sockets that lead me to believe I can add another 2MB for a total of 4MB. I'd like to do that in the most cost-efficient way possible. The board is marked "(C) 1991 Pacific Data Products" and "P/N 012186". The soldered-in RAM is mostly marked "HY534256S-70", although three chips are "HY534256S-80"(?) Thanks in advance. From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Sun Oct 21 17:24:14 2001 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (ajp166) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:54 2005 Subject: List Maintenance Message-ID: <006b01c15a81$2d5d6120$88ef9a8d@ajp166> Mike, I had to abandon the former world.std.com account as I was getting between 55-60 UCE/SPAM a day. After a while even wholesale deletes take too long. Whats this address your babbleling about as this address is getting on average 3-5 UCE/SPAM a day. This bugs me as I've taken pains to keep it out of circulation. Allison -----Original Message----- From: Mike Ford To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org Date: Sunday, October 21, 2001 4:20 PM Subject: Re: List Maintenance >>Some time ago, there was a discussion about address munging. I've noticed >>recently (ie the last few months) a large increase in spam arriving here, >>possibly correlated to my postings to the list. It not a really big deal, >>but I wondered if it's possible to anti-spamify my email address in list >>postings? > >This fear of spam always amazes me. I sign up at every idiot contest site I >find on the web (I won $3 of gas from Havoline), and I never get more than >half a dozen spam emails a day out of a hundred or so real emails on >important topics like replaceing the cord vs connector. Just hit delete, or >in the case of "real" spam drop the email into one of the antispam sites >and let the software go after the sender. > > From geoffr at zipcon.net Sun Oct 21 18:10:56 2001 From: geoffr at zipcon.net (Geoff Reed) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:54 2005 Subject: CoCo I (gilded, maybe?) was Re: CoCo 3 hot or hmmm In-Reply-To: References: <3BD2EFB3.361A6C29@mail.verizon.net> <1208454331-5227995@watermarkpress.com> <3BD2E7DA.C9AC50@mail.verizon.net> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20011021161028.00a40860@mail.zipcon.net> At 12:54 PM 10/21/01 -0700, you wrote: > >This guy on eBay seems to think CoCos are worth a lot more. > >His feedback count speaks volumes. Enjoy! > > > >http://cgi.ebay.com/aw-cgi/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=1287368755 > >His includes two games, and my friend doesn't have the monitor. Someone has been hitting the crackpipe again :) From Diff at Mac.com Sun Oct 21 18:38:16 2001 From: Diff at Mac.com (Zach Malone) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:54 2005 Subject: CoCo I (gilded, maybe?) was Re: CoCo 3 hot or hmmm References: <1208454331-5227995@watermarkpress.com> <3BD2E7DA.C9AC50@mail.verizon.net> Message-ID: <000d01c15a89$75c4b690$6401a8c0@laboffice> > His includes two games, and my friend doesn't have the monitor. That one doesn't either, and in true eBay style, it is now a "True Antique". From optimus at canit.se Sun Oct 21 19:29:58 2001 From: optimus at canit.se (Iggy Drougge) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:54 2005 Subject: That awful Spectrum keyboard Message-ID: <1173.695T2900T896625optimus@canit.se> I found a keyboard-less Spectrum at the salvation army, and I got it at only 15 SEK. Great price, that's about one GBP. So I proceeded to mix and match a working Spectrum out of one and the one I already own. The keyboard ribbons on my old one were really beat up, so I took the matrix (and ribbons) off the one without a keyboard and transplanted it into the old one, which turned out to work this time. It was probably just a disagreement with an AC-DC adaptor or the tuner in the TV. So now I've got a working Speccy, with a luxurious on/off switch and all. The keyboard is... interesting. So far I've worked out how to generate all characters on the keytops (letters, keywords and symbols) using CAPS SHIFT or SYMBOL SHIFT. I've also discovered how to print the keywords listed above each key, by pressing both SHIFT keys in order to enter the "E" input mode. But I'm lost as to how to print the keywords and characters listed below the keys. No combinations of SHIFT keys seem to work out. -- En ligne avec Thor 2.6a. Iggy tipsar: Vill du l?sa en PDF-fil, men saknar l?sare, skicka den till pdf2txt@adobe.com, du f?r den tillbaka som ren ASCII till din epostadress. From optimus at canit.se Sun Oct 21 20:06:25 2001 From: optimus at canit.se (Iggy Drougge) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:54 2005 Subject: Self-combusting Speccy Message-ID: <636.695T1250T1264875optimus@canit.se> So I find this nice little program called "Toot", which "toots" Spectrum snapshots into the earphone socket of said machine. What happens when I plug the machine in? A hideous smell, that's what. Now I'm back at square one. No working Speccy. All I get is a black screen. When fine- tuning the receiver, the border is sometimes visible. Is there something irreplacable, like the ULA, which has broken, or is it the CPU (I've got plenty of those) or just some discrete component? -- En ligne avec Thor 2.6a. "I believe OS/2 is destined to be the most important operating system, and possibly program, of all time..." Bill Gates 1988 From pete at dunnington.u-net.com Sun Oct 21 19:17:06 2001 From: pete at dunnington.u-net.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:54 2005 Subject: DEC Lab 11/40 In-Reply-To: Bob Shannon "Re: DEC Lab 11/40" (Oct 21, 9:41) References: <10110211228.ZM16666@mindy.dunnington.u-net.com> <3BD2D073.2E191A48@tiac.net> Message-ID: <10110220117.ZM17490@mindy.dunnington.u-net.com> On Oct 21, 9:41, Bob Shannon wrote: > Ah, you have a VT-11! > > Very collectable! Not to say "spacewar-capable" :-) Providing I can find some PDP-11 code -- I don't fancy recoding it, given only the PDP-1 assembly listing. -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager University of York From pete at dunnington.u-net.com Sun Oct 21 19:05:13 2001 From: pete at dunnington.u-net.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:54 2005 Subject: DEC Lab 11/40 In-Reply-To: ard@p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) "Re: DEC Lab 11/40" (Oct 21, 20:52) References: Message-ID: <10110220105.ZM17469@mindy.dunnington.u-net.com> On Oct 21, 20:52, Tony Duell wrote: > > On Thursday I took possession of a DEC Lab 11/40 system. > Nice!. I've seen one once. AFAIK, it is (almost?) all standard DEC parts > -- an 11/40 CPU, VT11 graphics display, LPS11 lab I/O, RK05 + RK11-D > drives, etc. Yes, I can't see anything in it that's not original DEC -- except a couple of RK05 packs that turned up later, which are Scotch-branded rather than DEC. > Well, DL11 cards are simple enough to repair. If it is the RS232 chips, > they're just 1488s and 1489s, so no real problem to get replacements. Agreed -- I have umpteen sets of them. And I've previously upgraded -YAs to RS232, so no problem there either. The machine usedf to be used with an LA120, but I had to leave that behind as I simply have no room :-( > Yes, VT11 board set. [...] I have prints if you are missing them. I've found the manuals but not the print sets. > It's the same ribbon cable (BC11) as is used for Unibus, but it certainly > doesn't carry unibus singals here. It's a raw data interface to the drives. Yeah, I knew that, though I wan't clear in what I wrote. I just meant it's the same type of cable -- so if it *is* damaged, it can be replaced relatively easily. > > and check the PSUs before I do anything else. I'm no Unibus or RK05 > > expert; most of my -11s are Q-bus. What else should I look for before I go > > too far? > > Read the printsets. Read them again. Then, as ever, check the power > [...] Thanks! That's exactly the detailed practical advice I was hoping for :-) A quick look at the RK05s shows the foam ring on the blower is disintegrating. I imagine this needs replaced with some similar high-density foam before I put any packs in there. Any other places I need to look? I seem to have all the relevant maintenance manuals and engineering drawings print sets, plus several extra photocopies and some updates. I also have several copies of The Software Despatch for RT-11, and the original Site Maintenance Manual for the machine, with the original shipping notes, Field Service logs, etc. -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager University of York From edick at idcomm.com Sun Oct 21 18:48:56 2001 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:54 2005 Subject: what RAM for this printer memory board? References: <20011021182020.A16575@spies.com> Message-ID: <000001c15a8f$722d9e60$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> I've got a similarly set-up board, and it uses the typical 1MB DRAM DIP's configured as 256Kx4 bits. If you plug up the reamining sockets with 80ns 25Kx4's, you'll have a 4 MB expansion board. It won't help much unless you've got lots of people using the printer over a LAN, however, since it transfers data at a relatively low rate and it has a fixed maximum print rate. I've got an HP LJIId with 2 MB in an expansion memory, an LJIIId with 4MB of expansion memory, and an OKILASER 1200 with 10 MB of add on. These operate at 8ppm, 8ppm, and 12 ppm, regardless of whether they have the minimum of memory or the maximum. IMHO, your 2 MB is plenty. Dick ----- Original Message ----- From: "ysgdhio" To: Sent: Sunday, October 21, 2001 4:20 PM Subject: what RAM for this printer memory board? > I just got a memory board for my HP IIIp. The board only has 2MB on it, > but there are 2 rows of empty 20-pin sockets that lead me to believe > I can add another 2MB for a total of 4MB. > I'd like to do that in the most cost-efficient way possible. > > The board is marked "(C) 1991 Pacific Data Products" and "P/N 012186". > The soldered-in RAM is mostly marked "HY534256S-70", although three chips > are "HY534256S-80"(?) > > Thanks in advance. > > From brian at quarterbyte.com Sun Oct 21 19:32:15 2001 From: brian at quarterbyte.com (Brian Knittel) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:54 2005 Subject: electronics/computer surplus in Virginia? Message-ID: <3BD3069F.25785.1153F10@localhost> Does anyone know of any electronics / computer surplus and/or computer / electronics recycling companies in the greater Portsmouth - Norfolk - Virginia Beach - Suffolk - Chesapeake, Virginia area? Thanks, Brian =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- _| _| _| Brian Knittel / Quarterbyte Systems, Inc. _| _| _| Tel: 1-510-559-7930 Fax: 1-510-525-6889 _| _| _| Email: brian@quarterbyte.com _| _| _| http://www.quarterbyte.com From mythtech at Mac.com Sun Oct 21 19:46:32 2001 From: mythtech at Mac.com (Chris) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:54 2005 Subject: OT: power & ground for wirewrap boards Message-ID: > For the power and ground connections for each chip, a friend suggested I >should solder 16-gauge wire from a tie point or the power connector >straight to each chip and/or its bypass cap. The only 16-gauge wire I have >is stranded, and it's a mess to work with -- too large to work with easily >and the strands mean it won't really bend and stay on the tie point or pin. What kind of juice do those chips need? 16 gauge seems awfully heavy for any ICs I have worked with. I assume you know guages, but 16-18 guage is standard lamp cord and will let you draw 5-10 amps on 110 volt. This sounds good for a main power input to a transformer, but all ICs I have worked with only pull at max a few amps at much lower voltages, so you should be able to use much thinner wire. I would check your amp requirements, and move to an 18 or 20 guage solid or even higher if you can... phone station cord is usually 24 guage, but don't mix it up with the 26 guage multipair cord... the usual obvious difference is, station cord is 4 colors red/green/yellow/black.... multipair cord is 2 (or more) pairs of striped wire (blue, orange, green, brown, slate all striped with white for the first 6 pairs) But that aside, if you strip the standed cord, tiwst the strands in your finger, and then tin the end with your solder iron (heat the end, and let it draw solder into it, until it has a nice coat), it will be MUCH more managable (although it still in general won't stay where you bend it, other than the tinned end, lightweight alligator clips work wonders for holding things in place). -chris From geoffr at zipcon.net Sun Oct 21 20:03:01 2001 From: geoffr at zipcon.net (Geoff Reed) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:54 2005 Subject: what RAM for this printer memory board? In-Reply-To: <000001c15a8f$722d9e60$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> References: <20011021182020.A16575@spies.com> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20011021180230.034c8af0@mail.zipcon.net> unless you're printing from windows, or have a postscript cart in the printer. At 05:48 PM 10/21/01 -0600, you wrote: >IMHO, your 2 MB is plenty. > >Dick From ysgdhio at yahoo.com Sun Oct 21 20:10:08 2001 From: ysgdhio at yahoo.com (ysgdhio) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:54 2005 Subject: what RAM for this printer memory board? In-Reply-To: <000001c15a8f$722d9e60$9cc762d8@idcomm.com>; from Richard Erlacher on Sun, Oct 21, 2001 at 05:48:56PM -0600 References: <20011021182020.A16575@spies.com> <000001c15a8f$722d9e60$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> Message-ID: <20011021211008.A6335@spies.com> Richard Erlacher writes: > IMHO, your 2 MB is plenty. I've also got a PostScript cartridge installed. It was what originally insisted I get more memory. I imagine "more" here means "MORE". :) From SUPRDAVE at aol.com Sun Oct 21 20:13:19 2001 From: SUPRDAVE at aol.com (SUPRDAVE@aol.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:54 2005 Subject: weekend additions Message-ID: <51.12fdec1a.2904ccaf@aol.com> After a long dry spell of not finding anything, finally found some stuff. Got an RS digital computer kit off ebay for only $3 and at the local thrift store got a PS/2 model 30 286 with the original keys still in the lock. got a laser 128 complete in box that looks hardly used and a laser 128ex with a broken key, but thankfully didnt get lost. -- DB Young Team OS/2 old computers, hot rod pinto and more at: www.nothingtodo.org From spectre at stockholm.ptloma.edu Sun Oct 21 21:16:02 2001 From: spectre at stockholm.ptloma.edu (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:54 2005 Subject: Self-combusting Speccy In-Reply-To: <636.695T1250T1264875optimus@canit.se> from Iggy Drougge at "Oct 22, 1 02:06:25 am" Message-ID: <200110220216.TAA11184@stockholm.ptloma.edu> > So I find this nice little program called "Toot", which "toots" Spectrum > snapshots into the earphone socket of said machine. > What happens when I plug the machine in? A hideous smell, that's what. Now I'm > back at square one. No working Speccy. All I get is a black screen. When fine- > tuning the receiver, the border is sometimes visible. > Is there something irreplacable, like the ULA, which has broken, or is it the > CPU (I've got plenty of those) or just some discrete component? I don't know which Spectrum this is, but when one of my TS1000's (ZX-81) blew its ULA the symptoms were near-identical. -- ----------------------------- personal page: http://www.armory.com/~spectre/ -- Cameron Kaiser, Point Loma Nazarene University * ckaiser@stockholm.ptloma.edu -- He whose face gives no light, shall never become a star. -- William Blake -- From optimus at canit.se Sun Oct 21 23:12:38 2001 From: optimus at canit.se (Iggy Drougge) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:54 2005 Subject: Self-combusting Speccy In-Reply-To: <200110220216.TAA11184@stockholm.ptloma.edu> Message-ID: <934.695T1900T3125693optimus@canit.se> Cameron Kaiser skrev: >> So I find this nice little program called "Toot", which "toots" Spectrum >> snapshots into the earphone socket of said machine. >> What happens when I plug the machine in? A hideous smell, that's what. Now >> I'm back at square one. No working Speccy. All I get is a black screen. >> When fine- tuning the receiver, the border is sometimes visible. Is there >> something irreplacable, like the ULA, which has broken, or is it the CPU >> (I've got plenty of those) or just some discrete component? >I don't know which Spectrum this is, but when one of my TS1000's (ZX-81) >blew its ULA the symptoms were near-identical. How silly of me. Well, it's the original Speccy, 48k version. If this is really the case, I think I'm running out of ULAs... -- En ligne avec Thor 2.6a. Haben Sie schon mal einen Wegweiser gesehen, der selbst den Weg geht, den er weist? --- Ludwig XV (K?nig von Frankreich, 1710-1774) From acme_ent at bellsouth.net Sun Oct 21 22:57:50 2001 From: acme_ent at bellsouth.net (Glen Goodwin) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:54 2005 Subject: That awful Spectrum keyboard Message-ID: <20011022035937.HRWU7029.imf11bis.bellsouth.net@thegoodw> Iggy wrote: > So now I've got a working Speccy, with a luxurious on/off switch and all. > The keyboard is... interesting. > So far I've worked out how to generate all characters on the keytops (letters, > keywords and symbols) using CAPS SHIFT or SYMBOL SHIFT. I've also discovered > how to print the keywords listed above each key, by pressing both SHIFT keys > in order to enter the "E" input mode. But I'm lost as to how to print the > keywords and characters listed below the keys. No combinations of SHIFT keys > seem to work out. Hold down the Caps Shift key. Tap the Symbl Shift key. Release the Caps Shift key. (Now you're in "E" mode) Hold down the Symbl Shift key. Press the key with the character or keyword you want to obtain. It's a lot easier than it sounds ;>) Glen 0/0 From sloboyko at yahoo.com Mon Oct 22 00:35:26 2001 From: sloboyko at yahoo.com (Loboyko Steve) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:54 2005 Subject: OT: power & ground for wirewrap boards In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20011022053526.26426.qmail@web11805.mail.yahoo.com> This sounded like overkill to me. Best thing to do, is to have a WW board with pads and busses. I've had no problems using ordinary 30 ga WW wire for power and ground following these rules: 0. ALWAYS use "modified wrap" with one turn of insulation as a strain relief. 1. No "christmas treeing" power from one chip to the next. 2. 0.1-0.01 uF bypass caps on EVERY chip. Especially if you use HTTL or TTL instead of LSTTL. Straight TTL draws frightening amounts of current at the instant of a switch. 3. No more than 1" from bus to chip on the +5 and GND. 4. Use ONLY machine tooled sockets. I like Jameco's, they aren't the best but they are good, inexpensive for what they are, and not surplus, and therefore work (and look) consistently. Gold on the "cup" is important-I don't think gold plated pins is as important if you are wrapping correctly. Yeah, I know side-wipe sockets are cheaper - but how much is your time worth. If you are reading this, quite a bit, I'll bet. 5. _Never_, _never_ reuse a wire wrap wire if you make a mistake and unwrap it - even if you "just started". It will definitely break, if not now (and gum up your tool), maybe later, when you'll have to find it in a jumble of hundreds of wires. Or worse, a bare piece will float around on your board. 6. It's nice to do the +5/GND in another color, and do it all first. If you don't have a plated board, I would run 16 ga _solid_ wire up and down parallel to the chips, power them, and work from that. You can tie them to the board with WW wire from the top if you can't solder them. I've seen WW style guides that say, "no wiring under chips". I don't understand this. wiring across chips brings noise from crosstalk down and shortens the wiring considerably, also desirable. It looks visually messy, but it looks good electrically on my scope. Keep the wiring "short", but NEVER, NEVER "tight". There should never be mechanical tension on any wire. If you have a plated board (and have no intention of reusing it), I have no problems soldering discretes to the board, wrapping resistors, and then tack-soldering to them to permanently connect them. Using headers (expensive for some reason unless you know where to find them), and sockets is extreme. Don't make mistakes - be methodical. care in the beginning will pay off with few or no nightmares in the end. Check for mistakes _often_ and use a VOM with a continuity tester to buzz out connections. You have to get used to working backwards (the chips are "backwards" looking from the bottom up compared to the pinouts in a book). I don't find this kind of work the kind where you can spend a 1/2 hour here, and 1/2 hour there. Unless you are a wizard, no TV or radio for distractions. Instead of the smoke test, use the VOM to power the board (with expensive chips pulled), red lead to +5, blk to ground. On a medium complexity board, resistance should be 100-500 ohms. I have yet to hurt any TTL chip doing this, because the current is so low on a modern meter. Using these techniques, I've gotten 4004, 8008, and 8008 boards of 15-30 MOS and TTL chip complexity in about 5 x 8" boards, running at decent speeds, to work (first crack in some cases!!) and have good clean signals (see 8080geek.freeservers.com). I don't do this professionally, I have an English degree, but these statements come from experience. Comments? __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Make a great connection at Yahoo! Personals. http://personals.yahoo.com From mranalog at home.com Mon Oct 22 01:43:13 2001 From: mranalog at home.com (Doug Coward) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:54 2005 Subject: electronics/computer surplus in Virginia? Message-ID: <3BD3BFFF.E35A2858@home.com> "Brian Knittel" wrote: > Does anyone know of any electronics / computer surplus > and/or computer / electronics recycling companies > in the greater Portsmouth - Norfolk - Virginia Beach - > Suffolk - Chesapeake, Virginia area? Try the US Navy. http://www.drms.com/ DRMO Norfolk http://www.drms.dla.mil/drmo/site/national/norfolk.pdf --Doug ========================================= Doug Coward @ home in Poulsbo, WA Analog Computer Online Museum and History Center http://www.best.com/~dcoward/analog ========================================= From pete at dunnington.u-net.com Sun Oct 21 19:39:16 2001 From: pete at dunnington.u-net.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:54 2005 Subject: List Maintenance In-Reply-To: Mike Ford "Re: List Maintenance" (Oct 21, 12:10) References: "Jay West" "List Maintenance" (Oct 20 21:22) <000901c159d7$47b3f020$0101a8c0@jay> Message-ID: <10110220139.ZM17535@mindy.dunnington.u-net.com> On Oct 21, 12:10, Mike Ford wrote: > This fear of spam always amazes me. [...] > Just hit delete, or > in the case of "real" spam drop the email into one of the antispam sites > and let the software go after the sender. It's not "fear" of spam, just simple irritation. I'm perfectly capable of hitting a delete key and using antispam sites, but I don't see why I should have to. -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager University of York From mikem at open.com.au Mon Oct 22 02:47:28 2001 From: mikem at open.com.au (Mike McCauley) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:54 2005 Subject: Tektronix 4041 GPIB controller Message-ID: <200110220747.f9M7lR708004@oscar.open.com.au> There were a number of posts on this list over the last year on the topic of the Tek 4041 GPIB controller. Ive got one of these suckers now, plus a number of Tek plugins with GPIB interfaces, and Im interested in making them all play together. I havent got a keyboard, and I recall some posts from Joe Rigdon? saying keyboards are very hard to find. In the meantime, Ive figured out the keyboard electrical interface characteristics and made a rs232-keyboard converter. So I can talk to it now, and give it little BASIC commands, and see the results on the LED display Ive figured out much of the BASIC dialect it speaks, but I cant yet figure out how to open the printer, serial port or tape for IO, nor have I got the docs yet. Can anyone shed some light on the exact syntax for the BASIC open call used by the 4041 and the get() function for reading GPIB devices? Cheers. From alan.pearson at cramer.com Mon Oct 22 03:46:21 2001 From: alan.pearson at cramer.com (Alan Pearson) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:54 2005 Subject: Are office people really that, umm shall we say...slow? Message-ID: > This is correct, the primary problem lies w/ teachers spewing GIGO, > good teachers is percious few. Too true... my brother-in-law was doing a C++ course earlier this year and sent me one of his assignments to have a look at. Imagine my horror when I looked at the bit of code his teacher had given him to work from and the first 5 lines were "#include " ... There have been an alarming number of interviews where I've asked a graddie (who's supposedly been studying Java for a year) what the significance of java.lang.Object was, only to be greeted by incomprehension. What do they teach these people? At least they've moved towards Java now, 5 years ago I used to ask graddies who "knew C++" what a pointer was and get answers like "it's that arrow thing on the screen that you move around with the mouse". And Tony Blair wants to make us a nation of IT excellence :-) Hmmm. -al From alan.pearson at cramer.com Mon Oct 22 04:05:47 2001 From: alan.pearson at cramer.com (Alan Pearson) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:54 2005 Subject: That awful Spectrum keyboard Message-ID: > So far I've worked out how to generate all characters on the keytops (letters, > keywords and symbols) using CAPS SHIFT or SYMBOL SHIFT. I've also discovered > how to print the keywords listed above each key, by pressing both SHIFT keys > in order to enter the "E" input mode. But I'm lost as to how to print the > keywords and characters listed below the keys. No combinations of SHIFT keys > seem to work out. Go into Extended Mode (both shifts down at once to get the "E" cursor), then press the command key you want while keeping Symbol Shift held down. Good old Sinclair keyboards... the keyword entry thing worked ok on the ZX80/ZX81 IMHO because they were such horrible "key"boards. Not so sure about the Spectrum, there were just too many keywords to find, even if you knew where to look it was still a pain to type in a listing from a magazine :-) I recently got hold of one of the 128K Spectrum+ machines - the ones with the QL-style keyboard. Firing up the 128K BASIC allows you to type in a program character by character - I would have thought that would be an improvement, but I find it to be just as nasty as the 48K BASIC's keyword mechanism because the keyboard layout is non-standard. I ask you, putting the " on it's own key :-) -al From mhstein at usa.net Mon Oct 22 04:05:38 2001 From: mhstein at usa.net (M H Stein) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:54 2005 Subject: Network protocols - RS232 Serial Message-ID: <01C15AB7.79F07000@mse-d03> -------------Original Message----------------- Date: Thu, 18 Oct 2001 23:17:52 +0100 (BST) From: ard@p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Subject: Re: Network protocols - RS232 Serial > Sorry, typon on my part. Mine also says 'Digital Products Inc' on it. > I've got a couple of different models here. ----------------------------------------------------- Well, I guess Product*S* is appropriate after all... They did indeed make quite a few different combinations, as well as the PrintDirector and DeviceDirector Printer/Terminal port sharing units, but I don't see yours listed in any of my literature; musta been older or newer than mine. I do see an NC7 (4S/3P) and some of the MultiSpool Print Directors were S/P combos. These are serial-only single-board babies, 16 RJ-45's along the back of the board, using standard DIP 256x1 RAMs. When you look at it, it sure doesn't look like $3000 worth... Now if they'd put some LED's on the front panel, say 4 per port, all blinking away merrily... We used them in two applications: One was collecting data from a bunch of AIM65's (later replaced by PC's) monitoring stock thickness in a brass rolling mill and sending it to a central Cromemco (also later replaced by a PC), and the other was a bond trader who used them to broadcast news of a new issue to his clients over dedicated lines, so some of them have been modified to simultaneously broadcast 1 port to the other 15 ('cause ya couldn't have one client getting the news before another, even at 9600 baud; that's how hectic the bond business is). mike From mhstein at usa.net Mon Oct 22 04:06:03 2001 From: mhstein at usa.net (M H Stein) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:54 2005 Subject: NetCommander - was Network protocols - RS232 Serial Message-ID: <01C15AB7.7D9ADA60@mse-d03> -------------Original Message-------------- Date: Sat, 20 Oct 2001 00:06:28 -0400 From: "Glen Goodwin" Subject: Re: Network protocols - RS232 Serial Hey Mike: > Anybody have a use for one or more Data Products Inc. NC16/250 NetCommanders (Not to be confused with Diamond's NetCommander ISDN adapter)? Yes. > Need to talk to your 15 vintage RS232 systems in the garage from one terminal? Yes! How much??? Glen 0/0 ---------------- Hey Glen: Will let ya know as soon as I've had a chance to look at them. Sorry to all for delays, kinda hectic here at the moment. mike From tonyfz at lycos.com Mon Oct 22 05:52:06 2001 From: tonyfz at lycos.com (Tony Fernandez) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:54 2005 Subject: ASSORTED COMPUTER PARTS!! L@@K HERE!! Message-ID: If you are interested in any items let me know and I'll forward you an image of the part. Here's the list: IBM PS/2 LX 40 Laptop (complete, including powersupply, battery and modem - Needs CMOS battery replaced) Compaq LTE 286 Laptop parts: -Battery pack -Floppy drive -Harddrive -Motherboard -Memory expansion card Compaq LTE 386 s/20 Laptop parts: -Battery pack -Floppy drive -Harddrive -Modem -Power supply board (?) Apple Computers: * Power Macintosh 6100/66 DOS Compatible 6100 DOS compatible. Card includes a 66 MHz 486DX2 CPU, SVGA output, and a single SIMM slot supporting up to 32 MB RAM * Apple Desktob Bus Mouse II * Assorted apple cables One monitor/printer cable One 8-pin keyboard (?) cable * Apple OneScanner w/ 2 SCSI Ports + cable * Apple Multiple Scan 15 Display 15" monitor w/15-pin plug * Two Apple Keyboard II units * Apple ImageWriter II Color Printer with Paper Tray Feeder MONITORS/Serial Terminals: * Wyse technologies Monitor/terminal w/parallell/phone line ports (15") * NCD Monitor/Terminal w/parallell/thin/serial ports(15"-color) * Seiko Instruments 15" Monitor (color) I also have the following motherboards available: * Compaq Motherboard for 486 processor w/4 Slot ISA Riser board and 4 72-pin memory bays (Copyright 1992, 93,94) Built in Mouse, keyboard, graphics card, and paralell ports Board # 03433-001 * Dual processor motherboard for 486 and 386 processors w/8 ISA Slots Unknown board brand, copyright 1992 8 30-pin SIMM memory bays AMI BIOS // American Megatrends/Symphony chips S/N 58000 * Dual processor motherboard for 386 and 286 (?) processors w/8 ISA Slots Unknown board brand, copyright 1986-1990 8 30-pin SIMM memory bays AMI BIOS // American Megatrends/Symphony/Twinhead chips FM-SC386 * DELL Computer Corp. motherboard for 486 processor w/3 Slot ISA Riser board and 4 72-pin memory bays,copyright 1991 Built in Mouse, keyboard, graphics card, and paralell ports 16577 A7 0141 WS(?) * Micronics Computers Inc. Dual processor motherboard for 486 and 386 (?) processors w/8 ISA slots and 8 30-pin SIMM memory bays Phoenix BIOS // Intel Copyright 1977 /CHIPS on-board chips * Micronics Computers Inc. (??) Dual processor motherboard for two 486 processors w/8 ISA slots and 4 72-pin memory bays and cache slot Copyright 1993 Phoenix BIOS // FLASH/CHIPS/Micronics on-board chips * Dtk Dual processor motherboard for 386 and 286 (?) processors w/8 assorted length ISA slots Copyright 1987 Dallas/Texas Instruments/Mitsubish/Citizen/VLSI on- board chips (All boards are working as far as I know, they were pulled out of working computers) I also have several 5.25" floppy drives (TEAC, EPSON, Others) I have older Miniscribe and Epson harddrives I have one tower and two boxes w/power supply ready for assembly Also, several older graphics cards, IDE expansion cards, SCSI cards, serial port cards, and many other older components of the like. Power supply. Numerous sizes and options Additionally, I have several sets of 30-PIN SIMM Memory cards and one Cache (256K) card Please let me know if you or anyone else you know is interested in acquiring any of this hardware. Feel free to email me for further info. Sincerely, H. Sven Fernandez Hattiesburg, Mississippi Make a difference, help support the relief efforts in the U.S. http://clubs.lycos.com/live/events/september11.asp From djg at drs-esg.com Mon Oct 22 07:37:33 2001 From: djg at drs-esg.com (David Gesswein) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:54 2005 Subject: DEC Lab 11/40 Message-ID: <200110221237.IAA32468@drs-esg.com> You had already gotten a bunch of good responses, you noticed all the foam was falling apart like in mine, I cleaned it all out so bits of stuff wouldn't be floating around. I used some furniture foam where I needed thick and soft weather stripping foam for areas like the air feed to the disk pack. If you pull the fan to replace the foam check to see that the duck bill which cools power supplies doesn't have dust blocking the end. I also had to replace the nicad battery pack which retracts the heads when power fails. If it isn't leaking you can see if it took a charge after the drive has been running a while or try charging if you got a power supply and then load test. You can also test by carefully pulling the head forward with the drive powered off. It will suddenly yank it back when you hit the switch (watch the fingers). Don't pull it far enough that it starts to get to the head load ramp, it should pull back before that. If you think you might have some dropped packs what I do is with cover off watch the reflection of something at the edge of the disk where the head loads. Blip the run switch to start the pack spinning and as it slows down watch for the reflection to move. If so the edge is bent. I don't know how much is safe, I have a couple I declared unsafe and a couple with just a slight change which worked fine. For packs that weren't stored in bags I clean them before using. I use alchohol wipes then "air" can and a lens brush to remove all I can. Look at various angles, the proper lighting angle makes the dust visible. I then let sit in the drive for a while, spin it up then run a program which quickly steps through all tracks. Frequently I get a little ping on a track on the first pass or two but the moving head seems to knock the dust bits off. If the head isn't moving it can sit pinging at a track which doesn't seem like a good thing. If after two passes the disk isn't quiet I try cleaning again or put it in the trouble stack. Check/clean heads after this. Also keep the finger on the load button and hit it if things sound too loud. I also have some PM procedures on my site which a company wrote for maintaining their drives. Search for RK05 http://www.pdp8.net/pdp8cgi/query_docs/query.pl David Gesswein http://www.pdp8.net/ -- Run an old computer with blinkenlights. From RCini at congressfinancial.com Mon Oct 22 08:28:29 2001 From: RCini at congressfinancial.com (Cini, Richard) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:54 2005 Subject: Altair32 2.10b released Message-ID: <497A9E0467D2D2119B760090271EB8E5879EC9@MAIL10> Hello, all: This weekend I posted the latest code release for the Altair32 Emulator. Right now, it's feature-complete except for the Altair Integrated Debugger, a fully-integrated debugger based on the one used by Jim Battle in his Sol emulator. There are a few known issues with this release: * Programatic access to the paper tape doesn't work properly for some unknown reason. So, for example, using the toggle-in bootstrap loader to load and run Altair BASIC 3.2 from tape doesn't work. Execution is never transferred to BASIC. Loading BASIC in the form of a memory image still works fine. Tape access has been sped-up by fully buffering the tape in a buffer and reading from the buffer. * Other BASIC versions, such as 8k (4.0) and Disk Extended BASIC, don't work properly. They seem to crash the emulator after the "MEMORY SIZE?" prompt. A quick trace of 8k BASIC shows some possibly strange IO port usage. * Emulated floppy access with the included disk images doesn't work properly. I can boot the emulator to CP/M and are able to see the console output but the CP/M BIOS doesn't seem to register console input. I've asked for a copy of the CBIOS source that relates to the CP/M image (borrowed with permission from the Sysun on-line computer museum) so that I can track this one down. I suspect that it's a problem with the emulated status register for the console serial port. Enjoy! Rich ========================== Richard A. Cini, Jr. Congress Financial Corporation 1133 Avenue of the Americas 30th Floor New York, NY 10036 (212) 545-4402 (212) 840-6259 (facsimile) From edick at idcomm.com Mon Oct 22 10:11:47 2001 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:54 2005 Subject: SC5889P - info about this part? References: <497A9E0467D2D2119B760090271EB8E5879EC9@MAIL10> Message-ID: <000501c15b0b$de771ac0$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> What's an SC5889P? It lives in an 8-pin pdip package and has a 120 microhenry choke attached to it. Does anybody know the details? thanks Dick From dittman at dittman.net Sat Oct 20 23:06:59 2001 From: dittman at dittman.net (Eric Dittman) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:54 2005 Subject: email problems Message-ID: <200110210406.f9L46xQ01124@narnia.int.dittman.net> Those of you I've been communicating with, my email is having problems due to my new ISP (GTE/Verizon) having messed up my DNS entries and not having any weekend DNS support (that sure surprised me!). If you need to contact me and mail to my usual email fails, try dittman@directlink.net. Thanks. -- Eric Dittman dittman@dittman.net Check out the DEC Enthusiasts Club at http://www.dittman.net/ From jkaye at isd.net Mon Oct 22 11:25:56 2001 From: jkaye at isd.net (jkaye) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:54 2005 Subject: PCjr Stuff References: Message-ID: <3BD44894.3B3F4FC5@isd.net> Tony Duell wrote: > > > > You know, come to think of it, some twinkie has probably ported Linux to > > > the PCjr ... ;-) > > It would be impossible to port Linux. However, Minix and maybe picobsd > > (or was it some other mini BSD?) might run if you have enough RAM. > > Given enough RAM (640K?), is there any good reason why ELKS couldn't be > ported to the PCjr? > > No, I am not volunteering to try it.... > > -tony I believe that all versions of Linux require a 32+ bit processor to run. -- Joseph Kaye From dittman at directlink.net Mon Oct 22 11:31:41 2001 From: dittman at directlink.net (Eric Dittman) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:54 2005 Subject: Searching one TK50 In-Reply-To: from "SP" at Jan 06, 1980 07:27:52 PM Message-ID: <200110221631.f9MGVfY15096@narnia.int.dittman.net> > Hi, Eric. Mmm... Where this could be applicable ? > One DEC PDP ? One Microvax ? One PC with Scsi > board ? It is a SCSI drive, so anything with a SCSI interface and drivers. -- Eric Dittman dittman@dittman.net Check out the DEC Enthusiasts Club at http://www.dittman.net/ From claudew at videotron.ca Mon Oct 22 12:28:07 2001 From: claudew at videotron.ca (Claude.W) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:54 2005 Subject: 65816/65802 cpu programming books offer Message-ID: <002801c15b1e$ea5574a0$0200a8c0@gamerclaude> Hi I found these sorting out stuff today. Programming the 65816 (W.Libiak, Sybex) 65816/65802 Ass. Lang. Programming (M.Fischer, McGraw/Hill) Both very clean. Trades and offers welcome or dumpster for these... Thanks Claude http://computer_collector.tripod.com From vance at ikickass.org Mon Oct 22 12:36:32 2001 From: vance at ikickass.org (One Without Reason) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:54 2005 Subject: PCjr Stuff In-Reply-To: <3BD44894.3B3F4FC5@isd.net> Message-ID: On Mon, 22 Oct 2001, jkaye wrote: > I believe that all versions of Linux require a 32+ bit processor to run. Nope. ELKS runs on 8088. Peace... Sridhar From lgwalker at mts.net Mon Oct 22 13:51:37 2001 From: lgwalker at mts.net (Lawrence Walker) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:54 2005 Subject: Are office people really that, umm shall we say...slow? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <3BD42469.5480.8C4D336@localhost> Well unfortunately. this has been going on for years. I remember back in 1983 in a prestigious Toronto Technical college, having read a spate of remaindered issues of "Electronics" and "Byte", I asked about UNIX, only to be greeted with looks of incomprehension by all my teachers. Needless to say, I was a little less awed by their acuteness after that. Lawrence > > This is correct, the primary problem lies w/ teachers spewing GIGO, > > good teachers is percious few. > > Too true... my brother-in-law was doing a C++ course earlier this year and > sent me one of his assignments to have a look at. Imagine my horror when I > looked at the bit of code his teacher had given him to work from and the > first 5 lines were "#include " ... > > There have been an alarming number of interviews where I've asked a graddie > (who's supposedly been studying Java for a year) what the significance of > java.lang.Object was, only to be greeted by incomprehension. What do they teach > these people? At least they've moved towards Java now, 5 years ago I used to ask > graddies who "knew C++" what a pointer was and get answers like "it's that arrow > thing on the screen that you move around with the mouse". > > And Tony Blair wants to make us a nation of IT excellence :-) Hmmm. > > -al Reply to: lgwalker@mts.net From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Oct 22 13:48:14 2001 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:55 2005 Subject: DEC Lab 11/40 In-Reply-To: <10110220105.ZM17469@mindy.dunnington.u-net.com> from "Pete Turnbull" at Oct 22, 1 00:05:13 am Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1440 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20011022/1c02fdb4/attachment.ksh From foo at siconic.com Mon Oct 22 14:39:09 2001 From: foo at siconic.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:55 2005 Subject: List Maintenance In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Sun, 21 Oct 2001, Chris wrote: > This (mine) email address is ONLY used for list subscriptions. I > recieve NO outside spam to this address. That tells me that no one has > harvested addresses from the list (or any list I am on). HOWEVER... I > do recieve from time to time spam addressed TO the list (and thus it > ends up at this address). No amount of address obscuring to solve > that, as it isn't addressed to "you" but to the list, and thus proxied > to you. Just for the record, ditto. This address is only used for list traffic and aside from the spam posted directly to the list, it is remarkably spam free. > Not that I am against address obscuring (since this list replies to > the list, and not to the person, so it doesn't become an annoyance). > Just thought I would mention my findings on the topic. But for people using the archives for research it would be nice to be able to e-mail the original poster (unless the address obscuring we're talking about will not completely remove the e-mail address from the message). Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org From foo at siconic.com Mon Oct 22 14:42:40 2001 From: foo at siconic.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:55 2005 Subject: CoCo I (gilded, maybe?) was Re: CoCo 3 hot or hmmm In-Reply-To: <3BD2EFB3.361A6C29@mail.verizon.net> Message-ID: On Sun, 21 Oct 2001, Eric Chomko wrote: > This guy on eBay seems to think CoCos are worth a lot more. > His feedback count speaks volumes. Enjoy! > > http://cgi.ebay.com/aw-cgi/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=1287368755 There's a $2,500 minimum bid on this guy's CoCo 1. Granted, I think the original CoCo is a fine computer to collect, but I have two words for this guy: "jack" and "ass". Put them together and it spells "idiot". Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Oct 22 13:56:54 2001 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:55 2005 Subject: Self-combusting Speccy In-Reply-To: <636.695T1250T1264875optimus@canit.se> from "Iggy Drougge" at Oct 22, 1 02:06:25 am Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1057 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20011022/3e0d560b/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Oct 22 13:54:17 2001 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:55 2005 Subject: OT: power & ground for wirewrap boards In-Reply-To: from "Chris" at Oct 21, 1 08:46:32 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1279 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20011022/513fd958/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Oct 22 14:07:57 2001 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:55 2005 Subject: OT: power & ground for wirewrap boards In-Reply-To: <20011022053526.26426.qmail@web11805.mail.yahoo.com> from "Loboyko Steve" at Oct 21, 1 10:35:26 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 3697 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20011022/2e2b98f7/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Oct 22 14:13:03 2001 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:55 2005 Subject: PCjr Stuff In-Reply-To: <3BD44894.3B3F4FC5@isd.net> from "jkaye" at Oct 22, 1 11:25:56 am Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 817 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20011022/98f6f376/attachment.ksh From hansp at aconit.org Mon Oct 22 15:18:18 2001 From: hansp at aconit.org (Hans B Pufal) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:55 2005 Subject: Tektronix 4041 GPIB controller References: <200110220747.f9M7lR708004@oscar.open.com.au> Message-ID: <3BD47F0A.9090100@aconit.org> Mike McCauley wrote: > Ive figured out much of the BASIC dialect it speaks, but I cant yet figure > out how to open the printer, serial port or tape for IO, nor have I got the > docs yet. Can anyone shed some light on the exact syntax for the BASIC open > call used by the 4041 and the > get() function for reading GPIB devices? Since no-one has answered yet and I fetched tre 4051 manulas form our library I think I can provide some information. Please shut me up if this information is not for your system! For tapes, use TLIST to list the files on the tape. WBYTE [ @ address [, address] ... : ] [ data ] [, data] ... Is used to send 8 bit bytes tot a GPIB device. RBYTE targe_variable [, target variable] ... to read from GPIB If ithis is all appropriate and you find no other docs I can scan ours and put them on the web. Regards, -- HBP From msell at ontimesupport.com Mon Oct 22 15:28:58 2001 From: msell at ontimesupport.com (Matthew Sell) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:55 2005 Subject: CoCo I (gilded, maybe?) was Re: CoCo 3 hot or hmmm In-Reply-To: References: <3BD2EFB3.361A6C29@mail.verizon.net> Message-ID: <5.0.2.1.0.20011022152834.03180360@127.0.0.1> Maybe it's packed full of the drugs this guy is doing...... - Matt At 12:42 PM 10/22/01 -0700, you wrote: >On Sun, 21 Oct 2001, Eric Chomko wrote: > > > This guy on eBay seems to think CoCos are worth a lot more. > > His feedback count speaks volumes. Enjoy! > > > > http://cgi.ebay.com/aw-cgi/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=1287368755 > >There's a $2,500 minimum bid on this guy's CoCo 1. Granted, I think the >original CoCo is a fine computer to collect, but I have two words for this >guy: "jack" and "ass". > >Put them together and it spells "idiot". > >Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival >------------------------------------------------------------------------------ >International Man of Intrigue and >Danger http://www.vintage.org Matthew Sell Programmer On Time Support, Inc. www.ontimesupport.com (281) 296-6066 Join the Metrology Software discussion group METLIST! http://www.ontimesupport.com/cgi-bin/mojo/mojo.cgi "One World, One Web, One Program" - Microsoft Promotional Ad "Ein Volk, Ein Reich, Ein Fuhrer" - Adolf Hitler Many thanks for this tagline to a fellow RGVAC'er... From jkaye at isd.net Mon Oct 22 16:01:36 2001 From: jkaye at isd.net (jkaye) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:55 2005 Subject: PCjr Stuff References: Message-ID: <3BD48930.9C6BCC11@isd.net> Tony Duell wrote: > > > > Given enough RAM (640K?), is there any good reason why ELKS couldn't be > > > ported to the PCjr? > > > > > > No, I am not volunteering to try it.... > > > > > > -tony > > > > > > I believe that all versions of Linux require a 32+ bit processor to run. > > I thought the whole point of ELKS was that it didn't need the MMU of the > 386+ (it's that, rather than the 32 bit operations, that is the real > reason that full linux won't run on a 286 or below, I think). > > -tony I was mistaken, I hadn't seen a version that could run on anything less than a 386 before. If I known that it would work, I would have kept that old 286-20 with 2mb RAM that I used to have... :) -- Joseph Kaye From jhellige at earthlink.net Mon Oct 22 16:04:08 2001 From: jhellige at earthlink.net (Jeff Hellige) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:55 2005 Subject: List Maintenance In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: >But for people using the archives for research it would be nice to be able >to e-mail the original poster (unless the address obscuring we're talking >about will not completely remove the e-mail address from the message). I agree, as I search the list quite often looking for past references to various items. Certainly the email address could be posted to look more like a long word than an email address, that way maybe the SPAM worms wouldn't pick up on it? My spam always increases once I've posted articles to USENET. Jeff -- Home of the TRS-80 Model 2000 FAQ File http://www.cchaven.com http://www.geocities.com/siliconvalley/lakes/6757 From pechter at ureach.com Mon Oct 22 16:16:18 2001 From: pechter at ureach.com (Bill Pechter) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:55 2005 Subject: RS6000 7012-320H Message-ID: <200110222116.RAA12712@stage21.ureach.com> ---- On Tue, 16 Oct 2001, r. 'bear' stricklin (red@bears.org) wrote: > On Tue, 16 Oct 2001, One Without Reason wrote: > > > OS/2 JFS is AIX JFS. They are the same. > > When did OS/2 start supporting JFS? It was still all HPFS as of Warp > 3.0 > > ok > r. > > > > The OS/2 Warp Server 4.x (IIRC) had HPFS support and JFS support. -- Bill Pechter Systems Administrator uReach Technologies 732-335-5432 (Work) 877-661-2126 (Fax) From zaft at azstarnet.com Mon Oct 22 16:21:44 2001 From: zaft at azstarnet.com (Gordon Zaft) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:55 2005 Subject: OT: power & ground for wirewrap boards In-Reply-To: <20011022053526.26426.qmail@web11805.mail.yahoo.com> References: Message-ID: <4.3.2.7.2.20011022142118.0210d7a8@mail.azstarnet.com> Thanks for all the feedback! I'll let y'all know how it turns out.. Gordon From mikeford at socal.rr.com Mon Oct 22 16:39:49 2001 From: mikeford at socal.rr.com (Mike Ford) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:55 2005 Subject: 65816/65802 cpu programming books offer In-Reply-To: <002801c15b1e$ea5574a0$0200a8c0@gamerclaude> Message-ID: >Hi > >I found these sorting out stuff today. > >Programming the 65816 (W.Libiak, Sybex) >65816/65802 Ass. Lang. Programming (M.Fischer, McGraw/Hill) >Both very clean. >Trades and offers welcome or dumpster for these... >Thanks > >Claude >http://computer_collector.tripod.com My wife is flying up to Montreal on Sunday I think, maybe I can talk her into bringing something up for a trade? (I am guessing if she is going to be very busy, perhaps the hotel registration desk will exchange packages?) What sort of things are you looking for (BTW I tried to convince to take a Q950 power supply a couple times, but she says it is too big and heavy, and won't take it). I have all sorts of old mac/apple/pc/network things. Cheers, Mike Ford From mikeford at socal.rr.com Mon Oct 22 17:10:48 2001 From: mikeford at socal.rr.com (Mike Ford) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:55 2005 Subject: Are office people really that, umm shall we say...slow? In-Reply-To: <3BD42469.5480.8C4D336@localhost> References: Message-ID: > Well unfortunately. this has been going on for years. I remember back in >1983 in a prestigious Toronto Technical college, having read a spate of >remaindered issues of "Electronics" and "Byte", I asked about UNIX, only to >be greeted with looks of incomprehension by all my teachers. Needless to >say, I was a little less awed by their acuteness after that. OTOH one of my professors from UC Riverside Cal. spent a year a Bell Labs, and was incomprehensible for a good year or more afterwards. Just too leading edge for just about ANYBODY to grasp outside of the immersed environment of Bell Labs. From edick at idcomm.com Mon Oct 22 17:21:50 2001 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:55 2005 Subject: zaft@azstarnet.com References: <4.3.2.7.2.20011022142118.0210d7a8@mail.azstarnet.com> Message-ID: <002801c15b47$f252c1c0$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> Since I've been in the business of proof-of-concept prototyping for the past 25 years, I thought I'd wait until everyone else weighs in on this matter. I have found very few wirewrap cards capable of distributing power properly, so I have made my own wherever practical. The boards I make have a continuous ground plane on the wiring side of the board and a continuous Vcc plane on the component side, with a ground strip around the exposed edges of the board, away from the backplane connector. In cases where no backplane is involved, the ground strip on both sides is available at each edge. This facilitates ground reference attachment for 'scope and logic analyzer. The holes are plated through and the board is coated with a dry-film solder mask, thereby facilitating the use of bare-wire analog circuit construction where it's needed. I've run fairly large synchronous circuits on a board of this type, with as many as 250 bipolar flipflops toggling at more or less the same time, i.e. from the same, albeit separately buffered, clock edge, without harmful effects, all the while monitoring the power<=>ground noise to be <100mv. The trick, of course, is that the attachment to the ground and power plane is normally accomplished by means of a soldered-on capacitor of relatively small value, typically 0.01 microfarad. Since one lead of a bypass capacitor is attached to the power pin of each IC, the other can be attached very near the capacitor by soldering it directly to the ground plane. So long as one keeps the leads shorter than about 1mm, the maximal benefit from bypass will be obtained. I still use boards of this type, albeit seldom with the solder mask, since I buy the big "colander" panels at RadioShack.com and cut them to fit. I still isolate the outer edges of the continuous power plane on the top of the board by relieving it from the main plane by means of a dremel too with a saw blade, and then connect the edges to ground with a solder bridge wherever it's convenient. That way I can still attach probe grounds wherever I need. There are few ways, short of having them made up, which is what I did, to get decent wire-wrap boards that will accomodate the connectors and IC packages you'll need. The RS.com store located here in Denver has large panels of this ground and power plane equipped perf board with plated-through holes, for about $100, which is plenty, but the boards are big enough to warrant it. regards, Dick ----- Original Message ----- From: "Gordon Zaft" To: Sent: Monday, October 22, 2001 3:21 PM Subject: Re: OT: power & ground for wirewrap boards > > Thanks for all the feedback! I'll let y'all know how it turns out.. > > Gordon > > From jss at subatomix.com Mon Oct 22 17:39:01 2001 From: jss at subatomix.com (Jeffrey S. Sharp) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:55 2005 Subject: List Maintenance In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20011022173127.M54797-100000@lepton.subatomix.com> On Mon, 22 Oct 2001, Jeff Hellige wrote: > > But for people using the archives for research it would be nice to be > > able to e-mail the original poster > > I agree, as I search the list quite often looking for past references > to various items. I also agree. I acquired my PDP-11/20 that way. I found a note about its free-to-a-good-home availability in the archives (from over a year back I believe), and contacted the sender. It turned out that he had not received any serious responses (!!!). -- Jeffrey S. Sharp jss@subatomix.com From netsurfer_x1 at hotmail.com Mon Oct 22 17:56:22 2001 From: netsurfer_x1 at hotmail.com (David Vohs) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:55 2005 Subject: electronics/computer surplus in Virginia? Message-ID: I don't know of any dedicated electronics/cpmputer surpluse tores in that area. However, I suggest to you that if you ever run across any CHKD (Children's Hospital of the King's Daughters) Thrift stores to go there. Why, you ask? Very simple, I've been there on many occasions and see lots of computers (most are PC) but I had to pass on an Atari 520ST and (just yesterday!) had to pass on an Amiga 2000 (the whole setup cost less than $30!) just bacuse I live on ship, and have no room for this stuff. ____________________________________________________________ David Vohs, Digital Archaeologist & Computer Historian. Home page: http://www.geocities.com/netsurfer_x1/ Computer Collection: "Triumph": Commodore 64C, 1802, 1541, FSD-1, GeoRAM 512, MPS-801. "Leela": Macintosh 128 (Plus upgrade), Nova SCSI HDD, Imagewriter II. "Delorean": TI-99/4A, TI Speech Synthesizer. "Monolith": Apple Macintosh Portable. "Spectrum": Tandy Color Computer 3, Disto 512K RAM board. "Boombox": Sharp PC-7000. "Butterfly": Tandy Model 200, PDD, CCR-82. "Shapeshifter": Epson QX-10, Titan graphics & MS-DOS board, Comrex HDD. "Scout": Otrona Attache. ____________________________________________________________ >From: "Brian Knittel" >Reply-To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org >To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org >Subject: electronics/computer surplus in Virginia? >Date: Sun, 21 Oct 2001 17:32:15 -0700 > >Does anyone know of any electronics / computer surplus >and/or computer / electronics recycling companies >in the greater Portsmouth - Norfolk - Virginia Beach - >Suffolk - Chesapeake, Virginia area? > >Thanks, >Brian > >=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- >_| _| _| Brian Knittel / Quarterbyte Systems, Inc. >_| _| _| Tel: 1-510-559-7930 Fax: 1-510-525-6889 >_| _| _| Email: brian@quarterbyte.com >_| _| _| http://www.quarterbyte.com _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp From netsurfer_x1 at hotmail.com Mon Oct 22 17:58:39 2001 From: netsurfer_x1 at hotmail.com (David Vohs) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:55 2005 Subject: Portables wanted. Message-ID: Does anyone here have a GRiDCASE 3 (or similar) or a Lexmark Lexbook MB10 that they want to get rid of. If so, hit me up off the list, and let's make a deal! ____________________________________________________________ David Vohs, Digital Archaeologist & Computer Historian. Home page: http://www.geocities.com/netsurfer_x1/ Computer Collection: "Triumph": Commodore 64C, 1802, 1541, FSD-1, GeoRAM 512, MPS-801. "Leela": Macintosh 128 (Plus upgrade), Nova SCSI HDD, Imagewriter II. "Delorean": TI-99/4A, TI Speech Synthesizer. "Monolith": Apple Macintosh Portable. "Spectrum": Tandy Color Computer 3, Disto 512K RAM board. "Boombox": Sharp PC-7000. "Butterfly": Tandy Model 200, PDD, CCR-82. "Shapeshifter": Epson QX-10, Titan graphics & MS-DOS board, Comrex HDD. "Scout": Otrona Attache. ____________________________________________________________ _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp From technos at nerdland.org Sun Oct 21 18:13:06 2001 From: technos at nerdland.org (Jim Tuck) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:55 2005 Subject: PCjr Stuff Message-ID: <01C15A64.6AAAC350.technos@nerdland.org> Yep. The only restriction on Linus's final blessed tarball is a MMU. ELKS (and several other embedded/handheld ports) don't. ELKS will run on MMU less 'Intel' systems. I had it going on an overclocked V20 for a while. Jim On Monday, October 22, 2001 3:13 PM, Tony Duell [SMTP:ard@p850ug1.demon.co.uk] wrote: > > > Given enough RAM (640K?), is there any good reason why ELKS couldn't be > > > ported to the PCjr? > > > > > > No, I am not volunteering to try it.... > > > > > > -tony > > > > > > I believe that all versions of Linux require a 32+ bit processor to run. > > I thought the whole point of ELKS was that it didn't need the MMU of the > 386+ (it's that, rather than the 32 bit operations, that is the real > reason that full linux won't run on a 286 or below, I think). > > One problem with running ELKS (or Minix) on the PCjr is the keyboard. > It's very software-intensive -- the IR datastream goes to the NMI pin on > the CPU (and maybe to an input port, I would have to check the techref). > It's up to the CPU to work out the timing of the pulses and decode it. > This could be 'interesting' if running a multitasking OS :-)... > > -tony From mikem at open.com.au Mon Oct 22 18:16:58 2001 From: mikem at open.com.au (Mike McCauley) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:55 2005 Subject: Tektronix 4041 GPIB controller In-Reply-To: <3BD47F0A.9090100@aconit.org> References: <200110220747.f9M7lR708004@oscar.open.com.au> <3BD47F0A.9090100@aconit.org> Message-ID: <200110222316.f9MNGv715137@oscar.open.com.au> Hello Hans, Thank you very much for this information. I hope it will tide me over until I can get a manual. Cheers. On Tue, 23 Oct 2001 06:18, you wrote: > Mike McCauley wrote: > > Ive figured out much of the BASIC dialect it speaks, but I cant yet > > figure out how to open the printer, serial port or tape for IO, nor have > > I got the docs yet. Can anyone shed some light on the exact syntax for > > the BASIC open call used by the 4041 and the > > get() function for reading GPIB devices? > > Since no-one has answered yet and I fetched tre 4051 manulas form our > library I think I can provide some information. Please shut me up if > this information is not for your system! > > For tapes, use TLIST to list the files on the tape. > > WBYTE [ @ address [, address] ... : ] [ data ] [, data] ... > Is used to send 8 bit bytes tot a GPIB device. > > RBYTE targe_variable [, target variable] ... > to read from GPIB > > If ithis is all appropriate and you find no other docs I can scan ours > and put them on the web. > > Regards, > > -- HBP From marino13 at btinternet.com Mon Oct 22 18:27:44 2001 From: marino13 at btinternet.com (Shaun Stephenson) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:55 2005 Subject: SGI Indigo keyboard and mouse wanted! Message-ID: <3BD4AB70.36ACF8C4@btinternet.com> Hi all... Have been trying to find these for ages now but may be worth a re-ask! I have an old SGI Indigo Personal Iris minus keyboard and mouse. Does anyone have one of these spare they would be willing to sell? Its a specific Personal Iris set of hardware that was changed for the later machines - the mouse is plugged into the side of the keyboard, then the keyboard to the back of the machine, pass thru fashion. I have tried keyboards from later machines but they arent recognised on boot up. If anyone can help me out I would be extremely grateful. Cheers! Shaun From jhellige at earthlink.net Mon Oct 22 18:38:44 2001 From: jhellige at earthlink.net (Jeff Hellige) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:55 2005 Subject: electronics/computer surplus in Virginia? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: >I don't know of any dedicated electronics/cpmputer surpluse tores in >that area. However, I suggest to you that if you ever run across any >CHKD (Children's Hospital of the King's Daughters) Thrift stores to >go there. Why, you ask? Very simple, I've been there on many >occasions and see lots of computers (most are PC) but I had to pass >on an Atari 520ST and (just yesterday!) had to pass on an Amiga 2000 >(the whole setup cost less than $30!) just bacuse I live on ship, >and have no room for this stuff. There's a Thrift Store City, or something close to that name, just off where Military Highway meets Little Creek Road in Norfolk. I've gotten MANY cool items from there, though I also liked stopping at the CHKD stores as well. It was from one of their stores in Chesapeake that I got an Amiga 4000 for $20! It turned out to have a bad chip, which I replaced and continued using it for over a year. I've yet to find their equals up in the D.C. area. Jeff -- Home of the TRS-80 Model 2000 FAQ File http://www.cchaven.com http://www.geocities.com/siliconvalley/lakes/6757 From jdonogh1 at prodigy.net Mon Oct 22 17:54:09 2001 From: jdonogh1 at prodigy.net (Jim Donoghue) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:55 2005 Subject: Reading non-PC format floppies Message-ID: <01102218540901.01803@ws1> Any tools for reading non-PC 5 1/4" HD floppies out there? Tried reading them with DOS DEBUG, get 'Data Error'. From optimus at canit.se Mon Oct 22 18:41:19 2001 From: optimus at canit.se (Iggy Drougge) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:55 2005 Subject: Self-combusting Speccy In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <1763.696T950T414987optimus@canit.se> Tony Duell skrev: >> So I find this nice little program called "Toot", which "toots" Spectrum >> snapshots into the earphone socket of said machine. >I assume this involve a direct connection from a PC soundcard to the >Speccy. Do you know if your PC is properly grounded? Do you know if >either side of the Speccy PSU is grounded? Could you have shorted >something out (or worse, applied half mains voltage across the Spectrum) >via the ground connections Actually, it would involve an Amiga, no PC. =) The Amiga is routed through a "sound enhancer" (some filters to make the sound crisper) into an amplifier, and the tape output of the amplifier would go into the Speccy earsocket. Only I never got that far. The Speccy started smelling before I ever got as far as tuning into its RF signal or plugging it into the stereo. >> What happens when I plug the machine in? A hideous smell, that's what. Now >> I'm back at square one. No working Speccy. All I get is a black screen. >> When fine- tuning the receiver, the border is sometimes visible. Is there >> something irreplacable, like the ULA, which has broken, or is it the CPU >> (I've got plenty of those) or just some discrete component? >The most common problem (or so I am told) on early Spectrums is the >transistor in the PSU converter circuit. It generates at least one of the >supply lines for the DRAM. I would start by checking the power supply >voltages at the DRAM pins. Thank you, I'll do that as soon as I get to a multimeter. It's rather nice that the system is so simple that there isn't a whole lot of modules with various dependencies which may fail resulting in different behaviours. -- En ligne avec Thor 2.6a. You can have SEX with a Dragon but not with an Apple. -- Tony Duell From cisin at xenosoft.com Mon Oct 22 19:01:28 2001 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin (XenoSoft)) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:55 2005 Subject: Reading non-PC format floppies In-Reply-To: <01102218540901.01803@ws1> Message-ID: On Mon, 22 Oct 2001, Jim Donoghue wrote: > Any tools for reading non-PC 5 1/4" HD floppies out there? Tried reading them > with DOS DEBUG, get 'Data Error'. DEBUG can only read legitimate MS-DOS disks. For low-density ("360k"), Trakcess on the TRS-80 model III. Central point option board, TE program. Morgan Computing's Disk Toolkit (only for 512 byte per sector) XenoCopy-PC INT 13h programming the FDC directly. -- Fred Cisin cisin@xenosoft.com XenoSoft http://www.xenosoft.com PO Box 1236 (510) 558-9366 Berkeley, CA 94701-1236 From optimus at canit.se Mon Oct 22 20:15:27 2001 From: optimus at canit.se (Iggy Drougge) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:55 2005 Subject: electronics/computer surplus in Virginia? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <393.696T1350T1355027optimus@canit.se> Jeff Hellige skrev: >I've gotten MANY cool items from there, though I also liked stopping >at the CHKD stores as well. It was from one of their stores in >Chesapeake that I got an Amiga 4000 for $20! NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO! You bastard! -- En ligne avec Thor 2.6a. "If Linux were a beer, it would be shipped in open barrels so that anybody could piss in it before delivery." -- Unknown From spectre at stockholm.ptloma.edu Mon Oct 22 19:53:26 2001 From: spectre at stockholm.ptloma.edu (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:55 2005 Subject: 65816/65802 cpu programming books offer In-Reply-To: from Mike Ford at "Oct 22, 1 02:39:49 pm" Message-ID: <200110230053.RAA10352@stockholm.ptloma.edu> > I have all sorts of old mac/apple/pc/network things. This is quite an understatement :-) -- ----------------------------- personal page: http://www.armory.com/~spectre/ -- Cameron Kaiser, Point Loma Nazarene University * ckaiser@stockholm.ptloma.edu -- Wouldn't your life be simpler if you were reading this on a Commodore 64? -- From pete at dunnington.u-net.com Mon Oct 22 19:53:38 2001 From: pete at dunnington.u-net.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:55 2005 Subject: List Maintenance In-Reply-To: Sellam Ismail "Re: List Maintenance" (Oct 22, 12:39) References: Message-ID: <10110230153.ZM18449@mindy.dunnington.u-net.com> On Oct 22, 12:39, Sellam Ismail wrote: > But for people using the archives for research it would be nice to be able > to e-mail the original poster (unless the address obscuring we're talking > about will not completely remove the e-mail address from the message). I agree; it's been useful to me on a number of occasions, both when I've searched for something and when someone else has found me through the list. I wouldn't want my address removed, just altered enough so automatic spambots won't get my address too often. OTOH, it's possible that my additional spam collection has come from Usenet trawling rather than list archives, I suppose. -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager University of York From pete at dunnington.u-net.com Mon Oct 22 19:57:19 2001 From: pete at dunnington.u-net.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:55 2005 Subject: DEC Lab 11/40 In-Reply-To: ard@p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) "Re: DEC Lab 11/40" (Oct 22, 19:48) References: Message-ID: <10110230157.ZM18486@mindy.dunnington.u-net.com> On Oct 22, 19:48, Tony Duell wrote: > On the output duct from the prefilter (the trapezium-shaped thing on the > left of the spindle) there's another foam ring. This one is critical -- > it's in the clean air path from the filter to the cartridge. I am told > that draught excluder tape works here. I wondered about that. OK, it has to go, too. > Also, on top of the RK05 PSU there's a NiCd battery pack. It's there to > retract (and lift) the heads if the mains fails. It's nearly always dead > in old drives. Replace it. Fortunately it's the same as a common cordless > phone battery pack, so it's not hard to get a new one. I knew about that one; I didn't mention it before because I just took it as read that I'd need to replace it :-) Thanks again for the advice. Now all I need is time to get at it -- maybe this coming weekend. -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager University of York From cisin at xenosoft.com Mon Oct 22 20:09:53 2001 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin (XenoSoft)) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:55 2005 Subject: List Maintenance In-Reply-To: <10110230153.ZM18449@mindy.dunnington.u-net.com> Message-ID: On Tue, 23 Oct 2001, Pete Turnbull wrote: > OTOH, it's possible that my additional spam collection has come from Usenet > trawling rather than list archives, I suppose. You blame the list for additional spam, when you've been using the same e-mail address on usenet ?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!? From jhellige at earthlink.net Mon Oct 22 20:28:51 2001 From: jhellige at earthlink.net (Jeff Hellige) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:55 2005 Subject: electronics/computer surplus in Virginia? In-Reply-To: <393.696T1350T1355027optimus@canit.se> References: <393.696T1350T1355027optimus@canit.se> Message-ID: > >I've gotten MANY cool items from there, though I also liked stopping >>at the CHKD stores as well. It was from one of their stores in >>Chesapeake that I got an Amiga 4000 for $20! > >NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO! You bastard! That was about 4 years ago and I used it about a year then sold it when I moved to Mac's as my main machine. I never did like it anywhere near as much as the A3000 though and I'm really happy to have another A3000 now. That deal for the A4000 though was one of the two best I've ever come across..the other being picking up a complete and functional NeXTstation Color for $60 and it wasn't more than about 3 or 4 years old at the time. Jeff -- Home of the TRS-80 Model 2000 FAQ File http://www.cchaven.com http://www.geocities.com/siliconvalley/lakes/6757 From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Mon Oct 22 20:45:58 2001 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (ajp166) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:55 2005 Subject: Reading non-PC format floppies Message-ID: <008801c15b64$a8bc6260$ddef9a8d@ajp166> What about PUTR and about a slew of other programs that know alternate formats? Allison -----Original Message----- From: Fred Cisin (XenoSoft) To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org Date: Monday, October 22, 2001 9:25 PM Subject: Re: Reading non-PC format floppies >On Mon, 22 Oct 2001, Jim Donoghue wrote: >> Any tools for reading non-PC 5 1/4" HD floppies out there? Tried reading them >> with DOS DEBUG, get 'Data Error'. > >DEBUG can only read legitimate MS-DOS disks. > > >For low-density ("360k"), Trakcess on the TRS-80 model III. > >Central point option board, TE program. > >Morgan Computing's Disk Toolkit (only for 512 byte per sector) > >XenoCopy-PC > >INT 13h > >programming the FDC directly. > >-- >Fred Cisin cisin@xenosoft.com >XenoSoft http://www.xenosoft.com >PO Box 1236 (510) 558-9366 >Berkeley, CA 94701-1236 > From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Mon Oct 22 20:44:19 2001 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (ajp166) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:55 2005 Subject: List Maintenance Message-ID: <008701c15b64$a7042b10$ddef9a8d@ajp166> Thats how my old address was destroyed. Likely this one too in time. Does little good to have a valid address if the address has to be dumped due to being a spam trap. Allison -----Original Message----- From: Pete Turnbull To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org Date: Monday, October 22, 2001 9:12 PM Subject: Re: List Maintenance >On Oct 22, 12:39, Sellam Ismail wrote: > >> But for people using the archives for research it would be nice to be >able >> to e-mail the original poster (unless the address obscuring we're talking >> about will not completely remove the e-mail address from the message). > >I agree; it's been useful to me on a number of occasions, both when I've >searched for something and when someone else has found me through the list. > I wouldn't want my address removed, just altered enough so automatic >spambots won't get my address too often. > >OTOH, it's possible that my additional spam collection has come from Usenet >trawling rather than list archives, I suppose. > >-- >Pete Peter Turnbull > Network Manager > University of York From dittman at dittman.net Mon Oct 22 20:49:04 2001 From: dittman at dittman.net (Eric Dittman) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:55 2005 Subject: Did someone FedEx me something? Message-ID: <200110230149.f9N1n4C17594@narnia.int.dittman.net> First of all, I got my DNS straightened out, which is good. Second, FedEx tried to deliver a COD package to me today but I wasn't home. Did someone from the list send me something? -- Eric Dittman dittman@dittman.net Check out the DEC Enthusiasts Club at http://www.dittman.net/ From rcini at optonline.net Mon Oct 22 21:00:51 2001 From: rcini at optonline.net (Richard A. Cini, Jr.) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:55 2005 Subject: Sterling Cypher IV 8073 board info Message-ID: Hello, all: I mentioned a while ago that I got these boards, and I actually received them last week. To do a refresh, this board is an INS8073-based SBC with lots of I/O in a compact 4x5 size. Someone mentioned that they may have access to the manual but I can't find that message. I need some info on these more than I thought. The kit comes with the board and parts and nothing more. The silk screen on the board only has parts designations (i.e., R1, C1, U1) but not the values. Some I can guess at but not enough to make it work. The only info that I have is on the 8073 specifically and not the board itself. A search doesn't turn up much. Any help appreciated. Rich Rich Cini Collector of classic computers Build Master for the Altair32 Emulation Project Web site: http://highgate.comm.sfu.ca/~rcini/classiccmp/ /************************************************************/ From vance at ikickass.org Mon Oct 22 21:19:54 2001 From: vance at ikickass.org (One Without Reason) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:55 2005 Subject: RS6000 7012-320H In-Reply-To: <200110222116.RAA12712@stage21.ureach.com> Message-ID: On Mon, 22 Oct 2001, Bill Pechter wrote: > > When did OS/2 start supporting JFS? It was still all HPFS as of Warp > > 3.0 > > The OS/2 Warp Server 4.x (IIRC) had HPFS support and JFS support. I'm pretty sure it was Warp Server 5. Peace... Sridhar From oliv555 at arrl.net Mon Oct 22 21:52:39 2001 From: oliv555 at arrl.net (no) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:55 2005 Subject: klesi / rc25 question Message-ID: <3BD4DB77.B0C74409@arrl.net> I'm trying to get this combo running on a mvIII+ (ba23) I just put together. /sho dev/ picks it up as UQSSP Tape Controller 0 (774500). I know this can also be used as a tape controller but is there any jumpering required for use with the rc25? (no other mscp devs present) Also, the person who wanted the mvII boards from my recent "garagesale" changed his mind. So 2-M7606 1-M7608 and 2-M7609s are still avail (free - U pay postage). All bds just tested good. -nick From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Mon Oct 22 22:20:09 2001 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (ajp166) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:55 2005 Subject: Sterling Cypher IV 8073 board info Message-ID: <00a101c15b71$f1611cb0$ddef9a8d@ajp166> Rich, I have data on the NS version of the 8073 board and the chip itself. However I have to dig for it. the sterling Cypher is different than the NS board though the chip (8073) is fairly standard in what it expects in that regard. Allison -----Original Message----- From: Richard A. Cini, Jr. To: ClassCompList Date: Monday, October 22, 2001 11:11 PM Subject: Sterling Cypher IV 8073 board info Hello, all: I mentioned a while ago that I got these boards, and I actually received them last week. To do a refresh, this board is an INS8073-based SBC with lots of I/O in a compact 4x5 size. Someone mentioned that they may have access to the manual but I can't find that message. I need some info on these more than I thought. The kit comes with the board and parts and nothing more. The silk screen on the board only has parts designations (i.e., R1, C1, U1) but not the values. Some I can guess at but not enough to make it work. The only info that I have is on the 8073 specifically and not the board itself. A search doesn't turn up much. Any help appreciated. Rich Rich Cini Collector of classic computers Build Master for the Altair32 Emulation Project Web site: http://highgate.comm.sfu.ca/~rcini/classiccmp/ /************************************************************/ From mikeford at socal.rr.com Mon Oct 22 22:13:32 2001 From: mikeford at socal.rr.com (Mike Ford) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:55 2005 Subject: 65816/65802 cpu programming books offer In-Reply-To: <200110230053.RAA10352@stockholm.ptloma.edu> References: from Mike Ford at "Oct 22, 1 02:39:49 pm" Message-ID: >> I have all sorts of old mac/apple/pc/network things. > >This is quite an understatement :-) You sir, are just jealous. Actually the four or five hundred cards I have for various mac, apple, and PCs is fairly sane. I have a equally large selection of stuff I NEVER will even think of using, but at some time or another it seemed reasonable to stick in the back of my car. A 24"x24"x24" box of commercial air filters in a size I can't use top the list, but I also have 3 new in the box 3Com ISDN modems for a mac, and a box full of Rumba licenses and software (hey you AS400 types these may be old, but Wallstreet told me that since they are new and unopened they should still qualify for tech support etc.). From mikeford at socal.rr.com Mon Oct 22 22:33:18 2001 From: mikeford at socal.rr.com (Mike Ford) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:55 2005 Subject: Anti Spam sites In-Reply-To: <002801c15b47$f252c1c0$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> References: <4.3.2.7.2.20011022142118.0210d7a8@mail.azstarnet.com> Message-ID: Here are some links to anti spam sites http://www.abuse.net/ http://members.hostedscripts.com/antispam.html link your webpage to this site and spammers will get 100 new random character bad email addresses to add to their database. http://spamcop.net/ From vaxman at qwest.net Mon Oct 22 23:12:48 2001 From: vaxman at qwest.net (Clint Wolff (VAX collector)) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:55 2005 Subject: VAX 11/730 Problem In-Reply-To: <3BD334F3.BCAE157D@silke.rt.schwaben.de> Message-ID: Hi Michael, I have a TU58 drive and could read the tape for you, but I am in the USA so shipping could be an issue. You might try cleaning the head with a cotton swab (Q-Tip) and rubbing alcohol (isopropyl alcohol). I had a tape in the drive when a rubber roller went that wouldn't read. I cleaned the head, read the tape, cleaned the head, read the tape, cleaned the head, read the tape, until it read without errors! Then I cleaned the head and threw the tape away... Good luck! clint PS If you do get a dump, I'd appreciate a copy. I'm archiving all the TU58s I can find to CD-Rs... On Sun, 21 Oct 2001, Michael Schneider wrote: > Hello to all VAXenfolks, > > i do have a problem with a VAX-11/730 that i have reconstructed > (cleaned, > resoldered, replaced cable, everything. Pictures on www.vaxcluster.de. > Yes, > i am a bit proud of it... But sorry for the bad web-page design!) over > the > last few months. > It is now willing to boot and tries to load it's microcode tape from the > TU-58 drives. I even have a microcode tape which looks like it could be > still readable. > But the TU-58's are so battered that i have not been able to read the > tape. > I have repaced the rubber rollers, but the read/write-heads look, ummm, > bad! > > I have found somewhere some TU-58 simulator software for DOS which looks > like a promising alternative; i would place a mini-DOS-computer inside a > VT-102 and route some additional cables to the VAX and bee fine. > > BUT: How do i get the contents of the microcode tape of the tape, into a > DOS file without access to a working TU-58? > > Is someone on this list able to read the tape? > Has someone already made a tape image i could just use? I mean, i have > a original DEC tape, with serial number and all. I might even come up > with a license document, if i search long enough... > > Any help would be greatly welcomed. This old lady is just to beautifull > to use it as an electric heater only... > > Thank you > > ms > > -- > Michael Schneider email: ms@silke.rt.schwaben.de > Germany http://www.vaxcluster.de > > People disagree with me. I just ignore them. > (Linus Torvalds) > > From hansp at aconit.org Tue Oct 23 01:08:28 2001 From: hansp at aconit.org (Hans B Pufal) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:55 2005 Subject: Tektronix 4041 GPIB controller References: <200110220747.f9M7lR708004@oscar.open.com.au> <3BD47F0A.9090100@aconit.org> <200110222316.f9MNGv715137@oscar.open.com.au> Message-ID: <3BD5095C.6050201@aconit.org> Mike McCauley wrote: > Thank you very much for this information. I hope it will tide me over until I > can get a manual. Yo're welcome. I wiill keep the manuals at home for a little while. If you need any specific details let me know. -- HBP From ms at silke.rt.schwaben.de Tue Oct 23 01:20:15 2001 From: ms at silke.rt.schwaben.de (Michael Schneider) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:55 2005 Subject: VAX 11/730 Problem References: Message-ID: <3BD50C1F.C7810554@silke.rt.schwaben.de> Clint, thank you for your offer. I'm into the "cleaning, reading, cleaning..." cylce now (since Sunday, actually), but unfortunately it does not look good; the tape drives report errors for every tape i have, but still i don't know whether the tapes are bad or the drives. I'm kinda stuck with that: without a booting '730, i can't test the tape drives. Without tape or drive, the '730 does not boot. So, could you send me (privately) your shipping address, just in case? (Which means: i practically gave up....) But, of course, if i get a dump, i'll send you a copy. No problem. I'm even think about placing it on my Website for download. My local Compaq "authorities" said they would not give a damn... Haven't asked HP yet, though 8-) ms "Clint Wolff (VAX collector)" wrote: > > Hi Michael, > > I have a TU58 drive and could read the tape for you, but I am in > the USA so shipping could be an issue. You might try cleaning the > head with a cotton swab (Q-Tip) and rubbing alcohol (isopropyl > alcohol). I had a tape in the drive when a rubber roller went that > wouldn't read. I cleaned the head, read the tape, cleaned the head, > read the tape, cleaned the head, read the tape, until it read > without errors! Then I cleaned the head and threw the tape away... > > Good luck! > clint > > PS If you do get a dump, I'd appreciate a copy. I'm archiving all the > TU58s I can find to CD-Rs... > > On Sun, 21 Oct 2001, Michael Schneider wrote: > > > Hello to all VAXenfolks, > > > > i do have a problem with a VAX-11/730 that i have reconstructed [snip] -- Michael Schneider email: ms@silke.rt.schwaben.de Germany http://www.vaxcluster.de People disagree with me. I just ignore them. (Linus Torvalds) From pete at dunnington.u-net.com Tue Oct 23 01:44:55 2001 From: pete at dunnington.u-net.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:55 2005 Subject: List Maintenance In-Reply-To: Sellam Ismail "Re: List Maintenance" (Oct 22, 12:39) References: Message-ID: <10110230744.ZM18712@mindy.dunnington.u-net.com> On Oct 22, 18:09, Fred Cisin (XenoSoft) wrote: > On Tue, 23 Oct 2001, Pete Turnbull wrote: > > OTOH, it's possible that my additional spam collection has come from Usenet > > trawling rather than list archives, I suppose. > > You blame the list for additional spam, when you've been using the same > e-mail address on usenet ?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!? Don't be ridiculous! I hardly ever use Usenet from this domain now that my ISP's news server seems to be unmanaged and uncared for. I usually post from work (different address, and munged). And I *always* mung the address on Usenet. -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager University of York From jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de Tue Oct 23 02:51:55 2001 From: jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de (jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:55 2005 Subject: VAX 11/730 Problem In-Reply-To: <3BD334F3.BCAE157D@silke.rt.schwaben.de> Message-ID: <200110230751.JAA28395@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> On 21 Oct, Michael Schneider wrote: > But the TU-58's are so battered that i have not been able to read the > tape. > I have repaced the rubber rollers, but the read/write-heads look, ummm, > bad! Perhaps a friend is willing to sell his TU58 he rescued from a ded VAX. I'll forward your mail to him... -- tsch??, Jochen Homepage: http://www.unixag-kl.fh-kl.de/~jkunz/ From mikeford at socal.rr.com Tue Oct 23 04:15:31 2001 From: mikeford at socal.rr.com (Mike Ford) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:55 2005 Subject: List Maintenance In-Reply-To: <10110230744.ZM18712@mindy.dunnington.u-net.com> References: Sellam Ismail "Re: List Maintenance" (Oct 22, 12:39) Message-ID: >Don't be ridiculous! I hardly ever use Usenet from this domain now that my >ISP's news server seems to be unmanaged and uncared for. I usually post Just for laughs I made a search just now of my email address mikeford@socal.rr.com, and I got 233 hits via the Google usenet group search. I really honestly only get maybe 5 bits of spam a day, and 80% of those I know I foolishly signed up for at some time recently. Have you spamphobs ever considered that maybe you get a lot of spam because you mung your email address, or that you don't have a profile in any spam databanks? From dec.parts at verizon.net Tue Oct 23 04:40:50 2001 From: dec.parts at verizon.net (Info from LSI) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:55 2005 Subject: TU-58 Tape Drive Problems Message-ID: <3BD53B22.314B@verizon.net> Hello Michael, Don't know if this would help you out or not, but Bob Armstrong developed a TU58 emulator at ... http://www.SpareTimeGizmos.com/Hardware/TU58_Emulator.htm Sincerely, Bennett > Hello to all VAXenfolks, > > i do have a problem with a VAX-11/730 that i have reconstructed > (cleaned, > resoldered, replaced cable, everything. Pictures on www.vaxcluster.de. > Yes, > i am a bit proud of it... But sorry for the bad web-page design!) over > the > last few months. > It is now willing to boot and tries to load it's microcode tape from the > TU-58 drives. I even have a microcode tape which looks like it could be > still readable. > But the TU-58's are so battered that i have not been able to read the > tape. > I have repaced the rubber rollers, but the read/write-heads look, ummm, > bad! > > I have found somewhere some TU-58 simulator software for DOS which looks > like a promising alternative; i would place a mini-DOS-computer inside a > VT-102 and route some additional cables to the VAX and bee fine. > > BUT: How do i get the contents of the microcode tape of the tape, into a > DOS file without access to a working TU-58? > > Is someone on this list able to read the tape? > Has someone already made a tape image i could just use? I mean, i have > a original DEC tape, with serial number and all. I might even come up > with a license document, if i search long enough... > > Any help would be greatly welcomed. This old lady is just to beautifull > to use it as an electric heater only... > > Thank you > > ms > > -- > Michael Schneider email: ms@silke.rt.schwaben.de > Germany http://www.vaxcluster.de > > People disagree with me. I just ignore them. > (Linus Torvalds) From GOOI at oce.nl Tue Oct 23 06:42:53 2001 From: GOOI at oce.nl (Gooijen H) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:56 2005 Subject: Adventure in Ersatz-11 Message-ID: Hi all. I have a problem when I try to run Advent in Ersatz-11. I guess it is trivial, but I am in the learning phase... Running RT-11, when entering "run advent", I get the response: ?KMON-F-Insufficient memory. For information here are some screen "dumps" of entered commands. .SH MEM ------- Extended Memory ------- Address Module Words Type ------- ------ ----- ---- 17760000 IOPAGE 4096. HDW 00760000 MEMTOP 00166200 ...... 96704. 00160000 SL 1600. PVT ------ Low Memory ------- Address Module Words ------- ------ ----- 155434 DL 626. 122216 RMON 6983. 111154 USR 2321. 001000 ..BG.. 18486. .SHOW CONF RT-11XM (S) V05.03 Booted from DL0:RT11XM USR is set NOSWAP EXIT is set SWAP KMON is set NOIND TT is set NOQUIET ERROR is set ERROR SL is set OFF EDIT is set KEX KMON nesting depth is 3 Global .SCCA flag is disabled PDP 11/35,40 Processor 248KB of memory Extended Instruction Set (EIS) Memory Management Unit 50 Cycle System Clock Device I/O time-out support FPU support From jfoust at threedee.com Tue Oct 23 08:06:32 2001 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:56 2005 Subject: List Maintenance In-Reply-To: References: <10110211303.ZM16710@mindy.dunnington.u-net.com> <000901c159d7$47b3f020$0101a8c0@jay> Message-ID: <4.3.2.7.0.20011023080553.023ae7b0@pc> At 12:10 PM 10/21/01 -0700, Mike Ford wrote: >>Some time ago, there was a discussion about address munging. I've noticed >>recently (ie the last few months) a large increase in spam arriving here, >This fear of spam always amazes me. I sign up at every idiot contest site I >find on the web (I won $3 of gas from Havoline), and I never get more than >half a dozen spam emails a day out of a hundred or so real emails on >important topics like replaceing the cord vs connector. Perhaps posting to Usenet generates higher levels of spam. - John From jfoust at threedee.com Tue Oct 23 08:11:32 2001 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:56 2005 Subject: List Maintenance In-Reply-To: <20011022173127.M54797-100000@lepton.subatomix.com> References: Message-ID: <4.3.2.7.0.20011023081029.023587c0@pc> At 05:39 PM 10/22/01 -0500, Jeffrey S. Sharp wrote: >I also agree. I acquired my PDP-11/20 that way. I found a note about its >free-to-a-good-home availability in the archives (from over a year back I >believe), and contacted the sender. It turned out that he had not >received any serious responses (!!!). It's a useful trick - along with waiting two or three weeks to see if the first responder fell through. Or better yet, send your first message that says "Keep me in mind if everyone else falls through." - John From jfoust at threedee.com Tue Oct 23 08:15:22 2001 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:56 2005 Subject: DEC Lab 11/40 In-Reply-To: <3BD30E3A.356619C6@idirect.com> References: <10110211228.ZM16666@mindy.dunnington.u-net.com> Message-ID: <4.3.2.7.0.20011023080432.0240bef0@pc> At 02:04 PM 10/21/01 -0400, Jerome Fine wrote: >>Pete Turnbull wrote: >> On Thursday I took possession of a DEC Lab 11/40 system. I've not had time >> to clean it up and check it out yet, but it was reputedly working when last >> used >Sounds like quite a find - after all this time. I also had not thought that >there were many Unibus 11s left in working condition (or close). So Pete, are you going to tell us the story behind this find? - John From john_boffemmyer_iv at boff-net.dhs.org Tue Oct 23 08:18:07 2001 From: john_boffemmyer_iv at boff-net.dhs.org (John Boffemmyer IV) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:56 2005 Subject: Um, SOL50 fell in my lap Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20011023091646.00a46420@sokieserv.dhs.org> some old guy handed me a SOL50 with teletype, working and a huge box of documentation, boards, etc. also, 2 thinkertoys 750mb external drives for it. no monitor though. nice toy =) -John ---------------------------------------- Founder, Lead Writer, Tech Analyst and Web Designer Boff-Net Technologies http://boff-net.dhs.org/index.html --------------------------------------- From r_beaudry at hotmail.com Tue Oct 23 08:21:46 2001 From: r_beaudry at hotmail.com (Rich Beaudry) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:56 2005 Subject: ISA cards for free... Message-ID: Hello all, Cleanout time again... I have the following ISA cards available for cost of postage only. These cards were part of a lot I picked up just for the two Compaticard II cards that were in the pile :-). Let me know what you want. In fairness to international and digest readers, if I get more offers than I have of a certain card, then I will throw names into a hat and pick. These should be fairly cheap to ship, as they all are light... Also, they are UNTESTED, and given to you AS-IS... Here we go: Boards from Zenith Z-150 - CPU Board 85-2889-1 -- 8088, keyboard port, ROMs, etc - Disk Controller Board 85-2890-1 -- 2 WD 8250, i8272, external ports - Memory Board 85-2891-1 -- 5 banks of 9 4164 chips - Video Board 85-2945-1 -- 6845, 2732 ROM, D9 and RCA outputs - 8-slot backplane board 85-2964-1 -- 8 8-bit ISA slots, power connector Qty. 3 8-bit ISA VGA cards -- Paradise chipset, 8 MB81464-12 memory chips Qty. 1 8-bit ISA VGA card, renaissance chipset, 8 D41464C-10 memory chips Qty. 3 8-bit Seagate ISA cards, SCSI??, EPROM marked Seagate ST01/02 BIOS, TI CF61891FN, 50-pin header Qty. 1 8-bit ISA card, marked "UPS Monitoring Board, Copyright 89 APCC" Switch settings silkscreened on board Qty. 2 8-bit ISA cards, marked "ASYNC CARD 1501485APS" -- INS 8250, 25-pin male connector Qty. 1 8-bit Everex ISA card, I believe SCSI controller -- PWA-00081-0002 EV-833, 50-pin header, 62-pin high-density connector out the back, 8085AP-2, 8257C, 6116, 27C64, TI CF60128N, Everex custom chip Qty. 1 16-bit ISA SCSI card, Adaptec AHA-1542B, w/ 50-pin ribbon cable Qty. 1 16-bit full-length ISA SCSI card, board marked AHA-1542A, custom chip marked AHA-1540A -- No floppy connector, 50-pin SCSI connector, no connector out the back. -- 50-pin header has some bent pins. Qty. 4 8-bit 3/4 length ISA floppy controller -- 37-pin D connector out the back, 34-pin edge connector along the front edge of the card. No obvious manufacturer's markings. Three have the i8272 chip, one has an NEC 765. Qty. 6 8-bit 1/2 length ISA floppy controller card. One uses the NEC 765, Two use the Zilog Z0765A08PSC, and three use the i8272. All have no connector out the back, and a 34-pin edge connector along the front edge of the card. One is marked "Kouwell KF-503C" "They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety." -- Ben Franklin From jhfine at idirect.com Tue Oct 23 08:18:37 2001 From: jhfine at idirect.com (Jerome Fine) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:56 2005 Subject: Adventure in Ersatz-11 References: Message-ID: <3BD56E2D.3BD43857@idirect.com> >Gooijen H wrote: > I have a problem when I try to run Advent in Ersatz-11. > I guess it is trivial, but I am in the learning phase... > Running RT-11, when entering "run advent", I get the response: > ?KMON-F-Insufficient memory. > For information here are some screen "dumps" of entered commands. > .SH MEM > ------- Extended Memory ------- > Address Module Words Type > ------- ------ ----- ---- > 17760000 IOPAGE 4096. HDW > 00760000 MEMTOP > 00166200 ...... 96704. > 00160000 SL 1600. PVT > ------ Low Memory ------- > Address Module Words > ------- ------ ----- > 155434 DL 626. > 122216 RMON 6983. > 111154 USR 2321. > 001000 ..BG.. 18486. > .SHOW CONF > RT-11XM (S) V05.03 > Booted from DL0:RT11XM Jerome Fine replies: If ADVENT is all you are using, try booting: BOOT RT11FB which will provide more memory for the background job. An alternate possibility under RT11XM is to use: VBGEXE ADVENT Please let us know which works - or both? Sincerely yours, Jerome Fine From jhellige at earthlink.net Tue Oct 23 09:03:34 2001 From: jhellige at earthlink.net (Jeff Hellige) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:56 2005 Subject: List Maintenance In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.0.20011023080553.023ae7b0@pc> References: <10110211303.ZM16710@mindy.dunnington.u-net.com> <000901c159d7$47b3f020$0101a8c0@jay> <4.3.2.7.0.20011023080553.023ae7b0@pc> Message-ID: <01Oct23.101626edt.119049@gateway.mediacen.navy.mil> >Perhaps posting to Usenet generates higher levels of spam. It's always been my understanding that Usenet is one of the favorite trolling places for those fishing for email addresses. The received amount of SPAM for me generally goes up once I've posted something to Usenet, but it's never been outrageous levels. I post to Usenet infrequently and in spurts though. I know of some people that post there regularly that even rotate the email addresses they use for Usenet postings, disabling an address after a given amount of time. Of course, all of this is of little good if your main address appears on one of the many CD compilations of email addresses that are sold to spammers. They appear on eBay all the time. Jeff -- Home of the TRS-80 Model 2000 FAQ File http://www.cchaven.com http://www.geocities.com/siliconvalley/lakes/6757 From GOOI at oce.nl Tue Oct 23 09:09:11 2001 From: GOOI at oce.nl (Gooijen H) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:56 2005 Subject: Adventure in Ersatz-11 Message-ID: Yes !! Thanks very much, Jerome. Booting RT-11FB and then running ADVENT still produces the "Insufficient memory" fatal error. However, VBGEXE works fine ! After the "Welcome to Adventure!! Would you like instructions?" and entering 'YES", it goes: Somewhere nearby is Colossal Cave, etc. This means that I am now going to play Adventure. This has a serious drawback on the expansion of my website ... I am playing it on my "homebrew-PDP" with the BLINKENLIGHTS on!! On my website this project (early phase) has a separate link. BTW. What is VBGEXE, what do the letters stand for? Thanks again, Henk. > -----Original Message----- (snipped to save bandwidth) From jhellige at earthlink.net Tue Oct 23 09:30:19 2001 From: jhellige at earthlink.net (Jeff Hellige) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:56 2005 Subject: ISA cards for free... In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <01Oct23.104116edt.119046@gateway.mediacen.navy.mil> Hi Rich, i'd be interested in one each of the following. Are the Paradise chipset VGA cards the half-slot cards? Thanks Jeff >Qty. 3 8-bit ISA VGA cards -- Paradise chipset, 8 MB81464-12 memory chips >Qty. 3 8-bit Seagate ISA cards, SCSI??, EPROM marked Seagate ST01/02 BIOS, >TI CF61891FN, 50-pin header >Qty. 1 16-bit ISA SCSI card, Adaptec AHA-1542B, w/ 50-pin ribbon cable -- Home of the TRS-80 Model 2000 FAQ File http://www.cchaven.com http://www.geocities.com/siliconvalley/lakes/6757 From DAW at yalepress3.unipress.yale.edu Tue Oct 23 09:51:06 2001 From: DAW at yalepress3.unipress.yale.edu (David Woyciesjes) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:56 2005 Subject: List Maintenance Message-ID: <9011A52E011ED311B4280004AC1BA615014671AA@yalepress3.unipress.yale.edu> !-----Original Message----- !From: pete@dunnington.u-net.com [mailto:pete@dunnington.u-net.com] !Sent: Monday, October 22, 2001 8:54 PM !To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org !Subject: Re: List Maintenance ! ! !On Oct 22, 12:39, Sellam Ismail wrote: ! !> But for people using the archives for research it would be nice to be !> able !> to e-mail the original poster (unless the address obscuring !> we're talking !> about will not completely remove the e-mail address from the !> message). ! !I agree; it's been useful to me on a number of occasions, both !when I've !searched for something and when someone else has found me !through the list. ! I wouldn't want my address removed, just altered enough so automatic !spambots won't get my address too often. ! !....... !-- !Pete One good way I've seen to munch the address is... change "computer.geek@computer.com" to "computerDOTgeekATcomputerDOTcom" --- David A Woyciesjes --- C & IS Support Specialist --- Yale University Press --- mailto:david.woyciesjes@yale.edu --- (203) 432-0953 --- ICQ # - 905818 From optimus at canit.se Tue Oct 23 10:35:04 2001 From: optimus at canit.se (Iggy Drougge) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:56 2005 Subject: List Maintenance In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <1453.696T200T9954021optimus@canit.se> Mike Ford skrev: >>Don't be ridiculous! I hardly ever use Usenet from this domain now that my >>ISP's news server seems to be unmanaged and uncared for. I usually post >Just for laughs I made a search just now of my email address >mikeford@socal.rr.com, and I got 233 hits via the Google usenet group >search. I really honestly only get maybe 5 bits of spam a day, and 80% of >those I know I foolishly signed up for at some time recently. Have you >spamphobs ever considered that maybe you get a lot of spam because you mung >your email address, or that you don't have a profile in any spam databanks? I did a Google Groups search as well, and got over 10 000 hits on my address. Perhaps is one subjected to spam because one is an active netizen? I've only munged my address on web boards one those rare occasion when I use those. I got my address before spam was any problem on the net, and I think munging is dishonest. I shouldn't have to hide from those spamming bastards. IMO NATO shouldn't go after Bin Laden, and Bin Laden shouldn't be riding airplanes or sending anthrax. They should all form a coalition towards fighting spam! -- En ligne avec Thor 2.6a. I can't understand ANY current MICROS~1 product names! Are they now created with a random word generator? What is the intent behind the name "Visual Studio" for their compiler suite? What is "Interdev"? Why is the Virus Transfer Protocol product named "Outlook"? Grumpy Ol' Fred From vaxman at qwest.net Tue Oct 23 10:50:47 2001 From: vaxman at qwest.net (Clint Wolff (VAX collector)) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:56 2005 Subject: VAX 11/730 Problem In-Reply-To: <3BD50C1F.C7810554@silke.rt.schwaben.de> Message-ID: Hi Michael, My shipping address is: Clint Wolff 11000 Chase Way Westminster, CO 80020-3285 USA Regards, clint On Tue, 23 Oct 2001, Michael Schneider wrote: > Clint, > > thank you for your offer. I'm into the "cleaning, reading, cleaning..." > cylce now (since Sunday, actually), but unfortunately it does not look > good; the tape drives report errors for every tape i have, but still i > don't know whether the tapes are bad or the drives. I'm kinda stuck with > that: without a booting '730, i can't test the tape drives. Without tape > or drive, the '730 does not boot. > > So, could you send me (privately) your shipping address, just in case? > (Which means: i practically gave up....) > > But, of course, if i get a dump, i'll send you a copy. No problem. > I'm even think about placing it on my Website for download. My > local Compaq "authorities" said they would not give a damn... > Haven't asked HP yet, though 8-) > > ms > > "Clint Wolff (VAX collector)" wrote: > > > > Hi Michael, > > > > I have a TU58 drive and could read the tape for you, but I am in > > the USA so shipping could be an issue. You might try cleaning the > > head with a cotton swab (Q-Tip) and rubbing alcohol (isopropyl > > alcohol). I had a tape in the drive when a rubber roller went that > > wouldn't read. I cleaned the head, read the tape, cleaned the head, > > read the tape, cleaned the head, read the tape, until it read > > without errors! Then I cleaned the head and threw the tape away... > > > > Good luck! > > clint > > > > PS If you do get a dump, I'd appreciate a copy. I'm archiving all the > > TU58s I can find to CD-Rs... > > > > On Sun, 21 Oct 2001, Michael Schneider wrote: > > > > > Hello to all VAXenfolks, > > > > > > i do have a problem with a VAX-11/730 that i have reconstructed > [snip] > > -- > Michael Schneider email: ms@silke.rt.schwaben.de > Germany http://www.vaxcluster.de > > People disagree with me. I just ignore them. > (Linus Torvalds) > > From geoffr at zipcon.net Tue Oct 23 11:13:58 2001 From: geoffr at zipcon.net (Geoff Reed) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:56 2005 Subject: ISA cards for free... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20011023091346.03d88b00@mail.zipcon.net> At 09:21 AM 10/23/01 -0400, you wrote: >Hello all, > >Cleanout time again... I have the following ISA cards available for cost of >postage only. These cards were part of a lot I picked up just for the two >Compaticard II cards that were in the pile :-). You lucky bastige :) From foo at siconic.com Tue Oct 23 11:44:51 2001 From: foo at siconic.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:56 2005 Subject: List Maintenance In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Tue, 23 Oct 2001, Mike Ford wrote: > Just for laughs I made a search just now of my email address > mikeford@socal.rr.com, and I got 233 hits via the Google usenet group > search. I really honestly only get maybe 5 bits of spam a day, and 80% > of those I know I foolishly signed up for at some time recently. Have > you spamphobs ever considered that maybe you get a lot of spam because > you mung your email address, or that you don't have a profile in any > spam databanks? Mike, just consider yourself extraordinarily and miraculously lucky and leave the rest of us poor slobs who get upwards of 50 spams a day alone. Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org From foo at siconic.com Tue Oct 23 11:45:48 2001 From: foo at siconic.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:56 2005 Subject: Um, SOL50 fell in my lap In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20011023091646.00a46420@sokieserv.dhs.org> Message-ID: On Tue, 23 Oct 2001, John Boffemmyer IV wrote: > some old guy handed me a SOL50 with teletype, working and a huge box of > documentation, boards, etc. also, 2 thinkertoys 750mb external drives for > it. no monitor though. nice toy =) Who makes this SOL50? Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org From jhfine at idirect.com Tue Oct 23 12:17:00 2001 From: jhfine at idirect.com (Jerome Fine) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:56 2005 Subject: ISA cards for free... References: Message-ID: <3BD5A60C.1E2117A2@idirect.com> >Rich Beaudry wrote: > Hello all, > Cleanout time again... I have the following ISA cards available for cost of > postage only. These cards were part of a lot I picked up just for the two > Compaticard II cards that were in the pile :-). Jerome Fine replies: Much appreciated - thank you! > Qty. 1 16-bit ISA SCSI card, Adaptec AHA-1542B, w/ 50-pin ribbon cable > > Qty. 1 16-bit full-length ISA SCSI card, board marked AHA-1542A, custom chip > marked AHA-1540A -- No floppy connector, 50-pin SCSI connector, no connector > out the back. -- 50-pin header has some bent pins. I can definitely use an older host adapter. I run old magneto optical drives. Either would be OK as I use floppy drives off the motherboard. Please let me know at your convenience. I am in Toronto. Sincerely yours, Jerome Fine From jott at mastif.ee.nd.edu Tue Oct 23 12:48:06 2001 From: jott at mastif.ee.nd.edu (John Ott) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:56 2005 Subject: OT: power & ground for wirewrap boards In-Reply-To: ; from ard@p850ug1.demon.co.uk on Mon, Oct 22, 2001 at 08:07:57PM +0100 References: <20011022053526.26426.qmail@web11805.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20011023124806.F6556@mastif> On Mon, Oct 22, 2001 at 08:07:57PM +0100, Tony Duell wrote: > > > > Best thing to do, is to have a WW board with pads and > > busses. I've had no problems using ordinary 30 ga WW > > wire for power and ground following these rules: > > > > 0. ALWAYS use "modified wrap" with one turn of > > insulation as a strain relief. > > And ignore those darn slit-n-wrap tools (unless you can afford one of the > professional motorised ones). The hand ones seem to give about 50% bad > connections. No thanks! Interesting, I've never had a problem using manual slit-n-wrap. I also think that it's easier to trace than straight wire wrap unless you cut each wire to the proper length. john -- ************************************************************************ * * * * John Ott * Email: jott@hamming.ee.nd.edu * * Dept. Electrical Engineering * * * 275 Fitzpatrick Hall * * * University of Notre Dame * Phone: (219) 631-7752 * * Notre Dame, IN 46556 USA * Fax: (219) 631-9924 * * * * ************************************************************************ From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Oct 23 12:45:10 2001 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:56 2005 Subject: Reading non-PC format floppies In-Reply-To: from "Fred Cisin" at Oct 22, 1 05:01:28 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1020 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20011023/4e668c2d/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Oct 23 12:46:53 2001 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:56 2005 Subject: DEC Lab 11/40 In-Reply-To: <10110230157.ZM18486@mindy.dunnington.u-net.com> from "Pete Turnbull" at Oct 23, 1 00:57:19 am Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 344 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20011023/15c942b6/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Oct 23 12:55:23 2001 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:56 2005 Subject: Sterling Cypher IV 8073 board info In-Reply-To: from "Richard A. Cini, Jr." at Oct 22, 1 10:00:51 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1996 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20011023/a170bb4a/attachment.ksh From gunther at aurora.regenstrief.org Tue Oct 23 13:01:34 2001 From: gunther at aurora.regenstrief.org (Gunther Schadow) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:56 2005 Subject: first step getting VAX 6000-400 booted ... Message-ID: <3BD5B07D.5702C1BA@aurora.regenstrief.org> Hi, after my pretty good VAX treck last weekend (more details coming up on my project web site at a later time) I finally have SDI disks. I hooked one up last night and did all the checking as per the RA9x manual (yes I have one plus many more, will scan those at some time...) and it seems to be O.K. (even though it was pretty messed up stored in a barn among lots of birds for many years). Here is one para about where I am at and then I have some specific questions for Geoff Roberts or Ragge or anyone who has had experienced any luck with getting a 6000 up to operation. I have bootable tape for Ultrix 4.1 and VMS 5.3 both TK50. None of them work. I seem to have no luck with the TK70 and I have no way finding out what's wrong. I tried to boot from that RA90 disk, even though I don't know what's on it. It has unit #0, so I thought it might be a system disk. But that too failed with some I/O error very early in the process. I also have a TU81+ and VMS bootable tape on 9-track, maybe that's more reliable? Tonight's project is to move the TU81+ into the basement and hook it up. I'm afraid I'll get stuck there too and what then? Network booting? Here's some more detail and questions: The TK50 boot proceeds for quite a while, although it never shows any message on the console about where it is at before it halts due to some unspecified error. However, about one or two minutes into the tape running the system-panel's FAULT light comes on and at the same time both yellow and green LEDs on the TKB70 board extinguish. That's for about a second or two. Then the lights go back to normal and the fault light turned off. Another 30 seconds to a minute tape streaming and the same light-spiel happens again: fault on, TKB70 LEDs off, and back to normal. Now a shorter time (like 10 seconds) of tape streaming and again. From now on that repeats for about 4 or 5 more cycles and finally the system is halted and console says: system halted due to previous error. However, no error message is being printed. I have no idea where I am in the process. I have tried cleaning the TK70 read/write head of course. I have tried a different copy of that Ultrix tape. It's always the same. Is this bliking of fault and shutting off of both TBK70 LEDs normal for media read errors or does it indicate something more serious? How can I tell where in the process I am? Is there an error flag somewhere in memory that I could EXAMINE to find out what is wrong? BTW: at first I had my CIBCA cards in and the boot process would halt earlier: system would say "insufficient memory for CI" and "10% or more of the memory is bad". Who is checking memory there? I could not find anything in Ultrix 4.2 sources that would generate such a message. And why would it anyway, because my system check tells me that I have 512 MB of memory OK. Or does it speak of 10% of the CIBCA's internal memory? Is there a boot flag that I could turn on that would cause the loader etc. to be more verbose? Has anyone tried booting Ultrix over the network? I am going to try that but all I have is Ultrix on TK50 (that doesn't work) and sources without any VAX running to compile them on. Is there a cross compiler suite? I'd like to compile with the DEBUG flag set. Thanks for your suggestions, -Gunther -- Gunther_Schadow-------------------------------http://aurora.rg.iupui.edu Regenstrief Institute for Health Care 1050 Wishard Blvd., Indianapolis IN 46202, Phone: (317) 630 7960 schadow@aurora.rg.iupui.edu------------------#include From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Oct 23 13:04:13 2001 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:56 2005 Subject: ISA cards for free... In-Reply-To: from "Rich Beaudry" at Oct 23, 1 09:21:46 am Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1772 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20011023/ea3b50b9/attachment.ksh From mikeford at socal.rr.com Tue Oct 23 13:28:59 2001 From: mikeford at socal.rr.com (Mike Ford) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:56 2005 Subject: TOPS, OS or network? In-Reply-To: <3BD53B22.314B@verizon.net> Message-ID: TOPS the OS vs TOPS the network, are they related? From foo at siconic.com Tue Oct 23 13:41:14 2001 From: foo at siconic.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:56 2005 Subject: Reading non-PC format floppies In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Tue, 23 Oct 2001, Tony Duell wrote: > Using FDRAWCMD requires a bit of knowledge of the 8272 disk controller, > and since the documentation is non-existant (:-(), you have to read the > kernel sources as well. But I managed it, and I am not a programmer. ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ Tony, please cut the bullshit already. Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org From pete at dunnington.u-net.com Tue Oct 23 12:41:08 2001 From: pete at dunnington.u-net.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:56 2005 Subject: DEC Lab 11/40 In-Reply-To: John Foust "Re: DEC Lab 11/40" (Oct 23, 8:15) References: <10110211228.ZM16666@mindy.dunnington.u-net.com> <4.3.2.7.0.20011023080432.0240bef0@pc> Message-ID: <10110231841.ZM19035@mindy.dunnington.u-net.com> On Oct 23, 8:15, John Foust wrote: > So Pete, are you going to tell us the story behind > this find? There's not much to tell, really. It originally belonged to the University's Psychology Department, which has moved between buildings a few times, and it was left in a small storeroom at the back of a building they left some time ago. I bought something from a postgrad in the building, and whilst chatting he mentioned that the AV technician was also into oold computers, so I paid him a visit. In the course of *that* conversation, he mentioned there was a disused PDP-11 that would need moved in time for a forthcoming building refurbishment, and the rest, is, as they say, history. I try to make sure that people around the campus know I'm interested in old machines, and from time to time something interesting turns up :-) I probably won't have much time to do anything other than gaze at it every time I walk past, until the weekend, but I'll let you know how I get on. I'm also trying to sort out the 6000VA UPS (unrelated acquisition) I got last week, and mentioned on the list. I've got as far as getting it powered up without tripping the 32A circuit breaker, getting the diagnostics and status out of the serial port, and have figured out why it doesn't like the batteries: the two sets of ten 12V lead-acid batteries are all flat. None reads more than 0.2V :-( I presently have a pulse generator/charger on some of them, to see if I can get any life out of a few. It looks moderately hopeful. -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager University of York From pete at dunnington.u-net.com Tue Oct 23 12:29:14 2001 From: pete at dunnington.u-net.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:56 2005 Subject: List Maintenance In-Reply-To: "Iggy Drougge" "Re: List Maintenance" (Oct 23, 16:35) References: <1453.696T200T9954021optimus@canit.se> Message-ID: <10110231829.ZM19029@mindy.dunnington.u-net.com> On Oct 23, 16:35, Iggy Drougge wrote: > Mike Ford skrev: > >Just for laughs I made a search just now of my email address > >mikeford@socal.rr.com, and I got 233 hits via the Google usenet group > >search. I really honestly only get maybe 5 bits of spam a day, and 80% of > >those I know I foolishly signed up for at some time recently. Have you > >spamphobs ever considered that maybe you get a lot of spam because you mung > >your email address, or that you don't have a profile in any spam databanks? > I did a Google Groups search as well, and got over 10 000 hits on my address. > Perhaps is one subjected to spam because one is an active netizen? Well, I just tried a Google Groups search, for comparison, and got 14 hits. I got 1020 from a straight Google (web) search, the majority from ClassicCmp (at least amongst the first few screenfuls). I don't especially like munged addresses either, but providing it's obvious (and obvious how to undo the obfuscation) I think it may be a necessary evil at times. -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager University of York From pete at dunnington.u-net.com Tue Oct 23 13:53:34 2001 From: pete at dunnington.u-net.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:56 2005 Subject: DEC Lab 11/40 In-Reply-To: ard@p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) "Re: DEC Lab 11/40" (Oct 23, 18:46) References: Message-ID: <10110231953.ZM19082@mindy.dunnington.u-net.com> On Oct 23, 18:46, Tony Duell wrote: > > On Oct 22, 19:48, Tony Duell wrote: > > > > > On the output duct from the prefilter > Did I really say 'prefilter' there? I must be going senile. I meant > 'absolute filter' of course. The prefilter is the foam pad at the back of > the logic cage, and is not essentialy to the operation of the drive. I realised out what you meant :-) -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager University of York From cisin at xenosoft.com Tue Oct 23 14:22:17 2001 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin (XenoSoft)) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:56 2005 Subject: List Maintenance In-Reply-To: <10110231829.ZM19029@mindy.dunnington.u-net.com> Message-ID: > I don't especially like munged addresses either, but providing it's obvious > (and obvious how to undo the obfuscation) I think it may be a necessary > evil at times. Is there an assumption that spam address harvesters would be incapable of replacing all occurences of 'DOT' with '.' and 'AT' with '@' ? From jfoust at threedee.com Tue Oct 23 14:35:17 2001 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:56 2005 Subject: List Maintenance In-Reply-To: References: <10110231829.ZM19029@mindy.dunnington.u-net.com> Message-ID: <4.3.2.7.0.20011023143347.023b32e0@pc> At 12:22 PM 10/23/01 -0700, you wrote: >Is there an assumption that spam address harvesters would be incapable of >replacing all occurences of 'DOT' with '.' and 'AT' with '@' ? If I were writing an e-mail harvester, I'm sure I'd have quite an extensive subroutine that looked for known patterns of spam-avoidance, and how to undo them. I can't fathom why otherwise smart people assume that other smart but nasty people won't think of the same things they did, and be able to undo them. - John From cisin at xenosoft.com Tue Oct 23 14:47:31 2001 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin (XenoSoft)) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:56 2005 Subject: Reading non-PC format floppies In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Tue, 23 Oct 2001, Tony Duell wrote: > INT 13h > Roughlky at a level between those 2 : > Linux : FDRAWCMD ioctl() > This lets you send an arbitrary set of command bytes to the FDC (allowing > you to do anything that the FDC is capable of), but it handles the DMA > controller (and aligning the buffer not across a 64K boundary) for you. It's nice that it would do that for you. FORMAT didn't even include code to do that right! If its buffer straddled an absolute address divisable by 64K, it would fail, and blame the diskette! -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin@xenosoft.com DogEars From ms at silke.rt.schwaben.de Tue Oct 23 15:11:36 2001 From: ms at silke.rt.schwaben.de (Michael Schneider) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:56 2005 Subject: VAX 11/730 Problem References: <200110230751.JAA28395@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> Message-ID: <3BD5CEF8.92EB2A51@silke.rt.schwaben.de> Thank You!!! I mean: DANKE! ms jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de wrote: > > On 21 Oct, Michael Schneider wrote: > > > But the TU-58's are so battered that i have not been able to read the > > tape. > > I have repaced the rubber rollers, but the read/write-heads look, ummm, > > bad! > Perhaps a friend is willing to sell his TU58 he rescued from a ded VAX. > I'll forward your mail to him... > -- > > tsch??, > Jochen > > Homepage: http://www.unixag-kl.fh-kl.de/~jkunz/ -- Michael Schneider email: ms@silke.rt.schwaben.de Germany http://www.vaxcluster.de People disagree with me. I just ignore them. (Linus Torvalds) From optimus at canit.se Tue Oct 23 15:55:07 2001 From: optimus at canit.se (Iggy Drougge) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:56 2005 Subject: Reading non-PC format floppies In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <299.696T350T13153651optimus@canit.se> Sellam Ismail skrev: >Tony, please cut the bullshit already. Go to hell, Ismail. There is a name for your disease, and it?s called rudeness. Why do you feel such an urge to insult everyone and everything on this list? -- En ligne avec Thor 2.6a. A conservative is a worshipper of dead radicals. From mrbill at mrbill.net Tue Oct 23 15:20:09 2001 From: mrbill at mrbill.net (Bill Bradford) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:56 2005 Subject: PDP-11 stuff in California Message-ID: <20011023152009.P12337@mrbill.net> Guy has some PDP-11 stuff he needs to clear out. Contact: Ken Slusser > On Tue, Oct 23, 2001 at 01:00:26PM -0700, Termtech wrote: > > Dear Sir > > I have a 1000 sq. ft warehouse full of used DEC pdp and pre IBM p.c. > > equipment / manuals / spares etc. > > I need someone to help me get rid of all of it. I realize it has some > > value on Ebay but my lease has run out and I need to recover some of my > > costs ASAP. > > I am in California on the central coast. > > Any suggestions. > > Thank You > > Ken Slusser > > TTi > > Termtech@digitalputty.com Bill -- Bill Bradford mrbill@mrbill.net Austin, TX From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Oct 23 15:24:05 2001 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:56 2005 Subject: Reading non-PC format floppies In-Reply-To: from "Sellam Ismail" at Oct 23, 1 11:41:14 am Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 2341 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20011023/c7e8313d/attachment.ksh From fdebros at verizon.net Tue Oct 23 15:38:13 2001 From: fdebros at verizon.net (Fred deBros) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:56 2005 Subject: touch screens and linux? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <000f01c15c02$a83af290$6501a8c0@fred> I found two touchscreens 12x9.5in, evidently for a 15 in monitor, with a serial 9pin doodad connector attached. Anybody know any linux pgms avail for this? Fred From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Oct 23 15:46:37 2001 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:56 2005 Subject: Reading non-PC format floppies Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 658 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20011023/20badf37/attachment.ksh From pete at dunnington.u-net.com Tue Oct 23 15:59:31 2001 From: pete at dunnington.u-net.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:56 2005 Subject: List Maintenance In-Reply-To: John Foust "Re: List Maintenance" (Oct 23, 14:35) References: <10110231829.ZM19029@mindy.dunnington.u-net.com> <4.3.2.7.0.20011023143347.023b32e0@pc> Message-ID: <10110232159.ZM19167@mindy.dunnington.u-net.com> On Oct 23, 14:35, John Foust wrote: > At 12:22 PM 10/23/01 -0700, you wrote: > >Is there an assumption that spam address harvesters would be incapable of > >replacing all occurences of 'DOT' with '.' and 'AT' with '@' ? > > If I were writing an e-mail harvester, I'm sure > I'd have quite an extensive subroutine that looked > for known patterns of spam-avoidance, and how to > undo them. I can't fathom why otherwise smart people > assume that other smart but nasty people won't think > of the same things they did, and be able to undo them. I'm sure you could/would -- but I'm also sure a lot don't. So trivial obfuscations probbly work to some extent, more especially in the context of trawling web pages, where there is no mandatory header labelled "From:" or whatever. -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager University of York From spc at conman.org Tue Oct 23 16:01:11 2001 From: spc at conman.org (Sean 'Captain Napalm' Conner) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:56 2005 Subject: List Maintenance In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.0.20011023143347.023b32e0@pc> from "John Foust" at Oct 23, 2001 02:35:17 PM Message-ID: <200110232101.RAA11079@conman.org> It was thus said that the Great John Foust once stated: > > At 12:22 PM 10/23/01 -0700, you wrote: > >Is there an assumption that spam address harvesters would be incapable of > >replacing all occurences of 'DOT' with '.' and 'AT' with '@' ? > > If I were writing an e-mail harvester, I'm sure > I'd have quite an extensive subroutine that looked > for known patterns of spam-avoidance, and how to > undo them. I can't fathom why otherwise smart people > assume that other smart but nasty people won't think > of the same things they did, and be able to undo them. It's a question of return on investment. Is the added complexity of looking for DOT and AT (possibly with spaces, returns, dashes, etc) worth the money for what you get in return? It's hard enough slugging through typical HTML and making sense of it. I could write: spc​@​conman​.​.org [1] The spammers (or the programmers they hire) will have to understand entities and Unicode (which browsers do) in order to clean this up, and until enough people do this, it's not cost effective. -spc (Or should I have written it as spc&#8203 ... ?) [1] 8203 is the Unicode character for a zero-width space. From hofmanwb at worldonline.nl Tue Oct 23 15:44:56 2001 From: hofmanwb at worldonline.nl (W.B.(Wim) Hofman) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:56 2005 Subject: Reading non-PC format floppies References: <008801c15b64$a8bc6260$ddef9a8d@ajp166> Message-ID: <00c001c15c03$bc4ceda0$4cc8f0c3@cx> fdcdemo Wim ----- Original Message ----- From: ajp166 To: Sent: Tuesday, October 23, 2001 3:45 AM Subject: Re: Reading non-PC format floppies > What about PUTR and about a slew of other programs that > know alternate formats? > > Allison > -----Original Message----- > From: Fred Cisin (XenoSoft) > To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org > Date: Monday, October 22, 2001 9:25 PM > Subject: Re: Reading non-PC format floppies > > > >On Mon, 22 Oct 2001, Jim Donoghue wrote: > >> Any tools for reading non-PC 5 1/4" HD floppies out there? Tried > reading them > >> with DOS DEBUG, get 'Data Error'. > > > >DEBUG can only read legitimate MS-DOS disks. > > > > > >For low-density ("360k"), Trakcess on the TRS-80 model III. > > > >Central point option board, TE program. > > > >Morgan Computing's Disk Toolkit (only for 512 byte per sector) > > > >XenoCopy-PC > > > >INT 13h > > > >programming the FDC directly. > > > >-- > >Fred Cisin cisin@xenosoft.com > >XenoSoft http://www.xenosoft.com > >PO Box 1236 (510) 558-9366 > >Berkeley, CA 94701-1236 > > > > From healyzh at aracnet.com Tue Oct 23 17:13:56 2001 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:56 2005 Subject: TOPS, OS or network? In-Reply-To: from "Mike Ford" at Oct 23, 2001 11:28:59 AM Message-ID: <200110232213.f9NMDxY15084@shell1.aracnet.com> > TOPS the OS vs TOPS the network, are they related? If you're wanting to know about TOPS-10 or TOPS-20 then I recommend my PDP-10 emulation web page as a starting point: http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/pdp10emu.html If you're wanting to know about the network, isn't that some sort of ancient Macintosh thing? Zane From jhfine at idirect.com Tue Oct 23 17:40:39 2001 From: jhfine at idirect.com (Jerome Fine) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:56 2005 Subject: Adventure in Ersatz-11 References: Message-ID: <3BD5F1E7.B2D34CEC@idirect.com> >Gooijen H wrote: > Yes !! Jerome Fine replies: Thank you for the feed back. I was not sure how much memory ADVENT requires. You might also try: BOOT RT11SJ if you wish. > Thanks very much, Jerome. > Booting RT-11FB and then running ADVENT still produces > the "Insufficient memory" fatal error. > However, VBGEXE works fine ! > After the "Welcome to Adventure!! Would you like instructions?" > and entering 'YES", it goes: Somewhere nearby is Colossal Cave, > etc. > This means that I am now going to play Adventure. This has a > serious drawback on the expansion of my website ... > I am playing it on my "homebrew-PDP" with the BLINKENLIGHTS on!! > On my website this project (early phase) has a separate link. > BTW. What is VBGEXE, what do the letters stand for? > Thanks again, > Henk. "EXEcute Virtual BackGround program" is how I think of the letters with the understanding that the word EXEcute is then switched to the end. A few points worth noting. (a) If FOO.SAV requires any arguments as in: "RUN DEV:FOO.SAV arguments" or replace RUN with VBGEXE, then they must be on the same line. The alternative is the put all three parts of the command on separate lines. Otherwise, with just "VBGEXE DEV:FOO.SAV" on the first line, somehow the request for information expects the arguments to already be there and if not, just exits. Entering: VBGEXE DEV:FOO.SAV arguments on three separate lines works as well. (b) The command: SRUN VBGEXE.SAV/TERMINAL:n/LEVEL:m/NAME:utility also works very well when you want to run a system job at a higher priority. TERMINAL is only useful with a system that has multi-terminal support LEVEL specifies the system job number ( 1=>6 ) NAME can be used to automatically select an executable file called SY:utility.SAV One minor problem is that if name is omitted, then only ONE instance of VBGEXE can be invoked as a system job since the high memory GRCBs (Global Region Control Blocks) must all have different names. I have a small patch with allows the user to do the command: SRUN VBGEXE.SAV/TERMINAL:n/LEVEL:m/NAME:VBGEXm If that is done, each GRCB is given the name VBGEXm making them all different. This means that no program can have the name VBGEX(1=>6), a restriction that I assume can be lived with. I also remember that modifying TECO to be named VMUNG so that "VBGEXE VMUNG arguments" would work the same as "MUNG arguments" but use the full 64 KBytes allowed by VBGEXE. By the way, I assume that you are using E11 on a PC. Which hardware and how fast do you find that the code runs compared to any real PDP-11 hardware. Plus, I can't remember about the "BLINKENLIGHTS" - what did you do to have those available? Sincerely yours, Jerome Fine From zmerch at 30below.com Tue Oct 23 18:16:52 2001 From: zmerch at 30below.com (Roger Merchberger) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:56 2005 Subject: ISA cards for free... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20011023191329.02cc7dd0@mail.30below.com> Rumor has it that Rich Beaudry may have mentioned these words: >Hello all, [snippety] -- wishing I'd have checked my mail earlier today... :-( >Qty. 3 8-bit ISA VGA cards -- Paradise chipset, 8 MB81464-12 memory chips > >Qty. 1 8-bit ISA VGA card, renaissance chipset, 8 D41464C-10 memory chips Are the 8-bit VGA cards spoken for? If you have any left, I'll take what you have! I've wanted to tinker with one - hooking it to a CoCo3 for years... They're tough to find! >Qty. 1 16-bit full-length ISA SCSI card, board marked AHA-1542A, custom chip >marked AHA-1540A -- No floppy connector, 50-pin SCSI connector, no connector >out the back. -- 50-pin header has some bent pins. Are you sure the silk screen said AHA-1542? The "2" on the end of the model number means "floppy capable" -- if it's sans floppy connector, it should just say "1540" like the chip... (I don't actually want the card... but I thought that might be helpful.) Thanks! Roger "Merch" Merchberger From cbajpai at mediaone.net Tue Oct 23 18:46:08 2001 From: cbajpai at mediaone.net (Chandra Bajpai) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:56 2005 Subject: Um, SOL50 fell in my lap In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20011023091646.00a46420@sokieserv.dhs.org> Message-ID: <000201c15c1c$e43988a0$b97ba8c0@ne.mediaone.net> Some guys have all the luck! :-) Congrats! -Chandra -----Original Message----- From: owner-classiccmp@classiccmp.org [mailto:owner-classiccmp@classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of John Boffemmyer IV Sent: Tuesday, October 23, 2001 9:18 AM To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org Subject: Um, SOL50 fell in my lap some old guy handed me a SOL50 with teletype, working and a huge box of documentation, boards, etc. also, 2 thinkertoys 750mb external drives for it. no monitor though. nice toy =) -John ---------------------------------------- Founder, Lead Writer, Tech Analyst and Web Designer Boff-Net Technologies http://boff-net.dhs.org/index.html --------------------------------------- From vze2wsvr at verizon.net Tue Oct 23 18:51:22 2001 From: vze2wsvr at verizon.net (Eric Chomko) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:56 2005 Subject: CoCo I (gilded, maybe?) was Re: CoCo 3 hot or hmmm References: <3BD2EFB3.361A6C29@mail.verizon.net> <1208454331-5227995@watermarkpress.com> <3BD2E7DA.C9AC50@mail.verizon.net> <5.1.0.14.2.20011021161028.00a40860@mail.zipcon.net> Message-ID: <3BD6027A.592A3239@mail.verizon.net> Geoff Reed wrote: > At 12:54 PM 10/21/01 -0700, you wrote: > > >This guy on eBay seems to think CoCos are worth a lot more. > > >His feedback count speaks volumes. Enjoy! > > > > > >http://cgi.ebay.com/aw-cgi/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=1287368755 > > > >His includes two games, and my friend doesn't have the monitor. > > Someone has been hitting the crackpipe again :) And evidently has aquired quite a habit! ;) Eric -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20011023/cb8edc56/attachment.html From vze2wsvr at verizon.net Tue Oct 23 18:52:48 2001 From: vze2wsvr at verizon.net (Eric Chomko) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:56 2005 Subject: CoCo I (gilded, maybe?) was Re: CoCo 3 hot or hmmm References: <1208454331-5227995@watermarkpress.com> <3BD2E7DA.C9AC50@mail.verizon.net> <000d01c15a89$75c4b690$6401a8c0@laboffice> Message-ID: <3BD602CF.AFFC239C@mail.verizon.net> Zach Malone wrote: > > His includes two games, and my friend doesn't have the monitor. > > That one doesn't either, and in true eBay style, it is now a "True Antique". Folks like the gilded fool give eBay a bad name. Does any on know what eBay gets for his folly? Eric From vze2wsvr at verizon.net Tue Oct 23 18:54:45 2001 From: vze2wsvr at verizon.net (Eric Chomko) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:56 2005 Subject: electronics/computer surplus in Virginia? References: <3BD3069F.25785.1153F10@localhost> Message-ID: <3BD60345.D4A173F2@mail.verizon.net> Brian Knittel wrote: > Does anyone know of any electronics / computer surplus > and/or computer / electronics recycling companies > in the greater Portsmouth - Norfolk - Virginia Beach - > Suffolk - Chesapeake, Virginia area? > Check out Langley Research Center (LaRC). It's a NASA facility. Do share anything you find, please. Eric > > Thanks, > Brian > > =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- > _| _| _| Brian Knittel / Quarterbyte Systems, Inc. > _| _| _| Tel: 1-510-559-7930 Fax: 1-510-525-6889 > _| _| _| Email: brian@quarterbyte.com > _| _| _| http://www.quarterbyte.com From vze2wsvr at verizon.net Tue Oct 23 19:01:33 2001 From: vze2wsvr at verizon.net (Eric Chomko) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:57 2005 Subject: CoCo I (gilded, maybe?) was Re: CoCo 3 hot or hmmm References: <3BD2EFB3.361A6C29@mail.verizon.net> <5.0.2.1.0.20011022152834.03180360@127.0.0.1> Message-ID: <3BD604DD.79A9B5D3@mail.verizon.net> I sent him a message and stated that I thought that his price was 50 to 100 times too high. May be is he that is 50 to 100 times too high? mrmrmrmrmrmrmrmrmrmhahahahahahhahahahahha... ....sorry I couldn't help it. Eric Matthew Sell wrote: > Maybe it's packed full of the drugs this guy is doing...... > > - Matt > > At 12:42 PM 10/22/01 -0700, you wrote: > >On Sun, 21 Oct 2001, Eric Chomko wrote: > > > > > This guy on eBay seems to think CoCos are worth a lot more. > > > His feedback count speaks volumes. Enjoy! > > > > > > http://cgi.ebay.com/aw-cgi/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=1287368755 > > > >There's a $2,500 minimum bid on this guy's CoCo 1. Granted, I think the > >original CoCo is a fine computer to collect, but I have two words for this > >guy: "jack" and "ass". > > > >Put them together and it spells "idiot". > > > >Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival > >------------------------------------------------------------------------------ > >International Man of Intrigue and > >Danger http://www.vintage.org > > Matthew Sell > Programmer > On Time Support, Inc. > www.ontimesupport.com > (281) 296-6066 > > Join the Metrology Software discussion group METLIST! > http://www.ontimesupport.com/cgi-bin/mojo/mojo.cgi > > "One World, One Web, One Program" - Microsoft Promotional Ad > "Ein Volk, Ein Reich, Ein Fuhrer" - Adolf Hitler > > Many thanks for this tagline to a fellow RGVAC'er... -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20011023/071bd60a/attachment.html From spectre at stockholm.ptloma.edu Tue Oct 23 19:46:44 2001 From: spectre at stockholm.ptloma.edu (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:57 2005 Subject: CoCo I (gilded, maybe?) was Re: CoCo 3 hot or hmmm In-Reply-To: <3BD604DD.79A9B5D3@mail.verizon.net> from Eric Chomko at "Oct 23, 1 08:01:33 pm" Message-ID: <200110240046.RAA03460@stockholm.ptloma.edu> > May be is he that is 50 to 100 times too high? I tried to sell this CoCo, but I was high ... I wanted to sell it cheap, but I was high -- Now it's overpriced, and I know why -- 'Cause I was high, 'cause I was high, 'cause I was hi-igh! (La la la la la ...) With no apologies whatsoever to Afroman, -- ----------------------------- personal page: http://www.armory.com/~spectre/ -- Cameron Kaiser, Point Loma Nazarene University * ckaiser@stockholm.ptloma.edu -- The fastest way to fold a map is differently. ------------------------------ From rcini at optonline.net Tue Oct 23 19:51:00 2001 From: rcini at optonline.net (Richard A. Cini, Jr.) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:57 2005 Subject: PDP11 tapes Message-ID: Hello, all: Someone from the Netherlands contacted me about obtaining images of the LPS11 test tapes. Before I go through the trouble of sending the tapes overseas, does anyone on the list have images of the tapes already prepared? Rich Rich Cini Collector of classic computers Build Master for the Altair32 Emulation Project Web site: http://highgate.comm.sfu.ca/~rcini/classiccmp/ /************************************************************/ From aek at spies.com Tue Oct 23 19:49:58 2001 From: aek at spies.com (Al Kossow) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:57 2005 Subject: Ken Slusser Message-ID: <200110240049.RAA03408@spies.com> > > Dear Sir > > I have a 1000 sq. ft warehouse full of used DEC pdp and pre IBM p.c. > > equipment / manuals / spares etc. > > I need someone to help me get rid of all of it. I realize it has some > > value on Ebay but my lease has run out and I need to recover some of my > > costs ASAP. > > I am in California on the central coast. > > Any suggestions. -- I talked to Ken this afternoon. He needs 3-4K to cover the back rent on the storage and is looking for someone to take all this stuff and sell it on eBay for him. He thinks it's worth $100000 I may go down there on Friday to see what's there assuming he can find the item that he says he has that I'm looking for. From allain at panix.com Tue Oct 23 20:11:32 2001 From: allain at panix.com (John Allain) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:57 2005 Subject: Reading non-PC format floppies References: <299.696T350T13153651optimus@canit.se> Message-ID: <008701c15c28$d1947820$21fe54a6@ibm23xhr06> I generally don't like certain rudenesses used indescriminantly, maybe more than most. Here I understood Sellam to be making humor, or at least that's how I saw it this time. Recalibrate the unversal translator, Mr. Drougge. John A. From geoffrob at stmarks.pp.catholic.edu.au Tue Oct 23 20:49:48 2001 From: geoffrob at stmarks.pp.catholic.edu.au (Geoff Roberts) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:57 2005 Subject: first step getting VAX 6000-400 booted ... References: <3BD5B07D.5702C1BA@aurora.regenstrief.org> Message-ID: <002501c15c2e$2a1b2e80$de2c67cb@helpdesk> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Gunther Schadow" To: ; Sent: Wednesday, October 24, 2001 3:31 AM Subject: first step getting VAX 6000-400 booted ... Hi Gunther, > after my pretty good VAX treck last weekend (more details coming > up on my project web site at a later time) I finally have SDI disks. Yay! > I hooked one up last night and did all the checking as per the > RA9x manual (yes I have one plus many more, will scan those at > some time...) Ooh. Yes please. I have RA90/91 drives and no manual. > and it seems to be O.K. (even though it was pretty > messed up stored in a barn among lots of birds for many years). This is going to be an interesting story I'm sure. > Here is one para about where I am at and then I have some > specific questions for Geoff Roberts or Ragge or anyone who > has had experienced any luck with getting a 6000 up to operation. > > I have bootable tape for Ultrix 4.1 and VMS 5.3 both TK50. None > of them work. I seem to have no luck with the TK70 and I have > no way finding out what's wrong. I tried to boot from that RA90 > disk, even though I don't know what's on it. It has unit #0, so > I thought it might be a system disk. But that too failed with > some I/O error very early in the process. Hmm, Unit 0 has an excellent chance of being a system disk, but possible it was initialised prior to being retired. What's the exact error msg (console dump is good) Tapes are probably sus. TK70's are the least reliable component of a 6000, but are still pretty reliable compared to the TK50. > I also have a TU81+ and VMS bootable tape on 9-track, maybe that's more reliable? Very likely, do you have the companion card for the TU81+ (KLESI-B) to go in the Vax? They TU81+ is not SDI, so it won't even plug in to the KDB50. If all else fails I can probably whip up a tape for you on ours. > Tonight's project is to move the TU81+ into the basement and hook it up. > I'm afraid I'll get stuck there too and what then? Network > booting? If you had a VMS box (almost anything will do) with ethernet you can MOP boot from that, but you would need to know exactly how to configure the host as a boot host. It's not real hard, but it's not trivial either, you would need the owners manual for the 6000 which ISTR you have, and know how to configure the boot process to boot from ethernet, and VMS books or a walkthru on setting up remote booting. Short answer it's possible but painful. Not very familiar with Ultrix though I gather it's also possible to mop boot an ultrix box from a vms one, though I don't think it will do vice versa. > Here's some more detail and questions: > The TK50 boot proceeds for quite a while, although it never shows > any message on the console about where it is at before it halts > due to some unspecified error. However, about one or two minutes > into the tape running the system-panel's FAULT light comes on and > at the same time both yellow and green LEDs on the TKB70 board > extinguish. That's for about a second or two. Then the lights > go back to normal and the fault light turned off. Another 30 > seconds to a minute tape streaming and the same light-spiel happens > again: fault on, TKB70 LEDs off, and back to normal. Now a shorter > time (like 10 seconds) of tape streaming and again. From now on that > repeats for about 4 or 5 more cycles and finally the system is > halted and console says: system halted due to previous error. > However, no error message is being printed. I have no idea where > I am in the process. sounds like media read failing. > I have tried cleaning the TK70 read/write head of course. I have > tried a different copy of that Ultrix tape. It's always the same. Only sure way to prove it is to get it to boot a different system, you would need a microvax or something with a TK50, if it boots that the TK70 is probably faulty, but it sounds more like crook media. I'm assuming you have the boot configured correctly of course. > Is this bliking of fault and shutting off of both TBK70 LEDs > normal for media read errors or does it indicate something more > serious? How can I tell where in the process I am? Is there an > error flag somewhere in memory that I could EXAMINE to find out > what is wrong? I think the 6000 owners manual gives you some detail, otherwise you need a TK70 manual or possibly even a TK50 one to tell you in more detail. I'll dig out my manual on the 6000 and see what it says. > BTW: at first I had my CIBCA cards in and the boot process would > halt earlier: system would say "insufficient memory for CI" and > "10% or more of the memory is bad". Who is checking memory there? Different. Depends where in the boot process you are. Sounds a bit like you may have faulty, or more likely, incompatible memory. Do you have a HSC? If not the CIBCA's are a waste of address space. > I could not find anything in Ultrix 4.2 sources that would generate > such a message. And why would it anyway, because my system check > tells me that I have 512 MB of memory OK. Or does it speak of > 10% of the CIBCA's internal memory? Does the POST correctly count and interleave the whole 512K? No errors on the console? Complaints about interleaving etc? Different versions of firmware, cpu serial no's etc etc? A capture of the console output would be useful, from powerup to the failure point. As a suggestion, perhaps pull out additional cpus and ram and just leave say, 64mb in there and see if that changes anything. It would also be worth pulling and reseating all the cards a couple of times, I have seen the odd hard error from mis-seated cards. > Is there a boot flag that I could turn on that would cause the > loader etc. to be more verbose? I'll check the manual, I don't think so, perhaps a conversational boot would be a help. > Has anyone tried booting Ultrix over the network? I am going to > try that but all I have is Ultrix on TK50 (that doesn't work) > and sources without any VAX running to compile them on. Is there > a cross compiler suite? I'd like to compile with the DEBUG > flag set. It can be done from a VMS box, I have something on that somewhere. I believe I have an Ultrix grey wall somewhere, I'll dig it out. Cheers Geoff Roberts Computer Systems Manager Saint Mark's College Port Pirie, South Australia geoffrob@stmarks.pp.catholic.edu.au ICQ 1970476 From KenzieM at sympatico.ca Tue Oct 23 21:05:56 2001 From: KenzieM at sympatico.ca (Mike Kenzie) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:57 2005 Subject: Mentor Graphics Storage unit 6000 Message-ID: <000701c15c30$973e1b60$0101a8c0@sympatico.ca> What is it? It says Mentor Graphics Storage Unit 6000 on the front panel HP C2213d.... class 1 laser... on the back I was told it was an external SCSI drive. Collector of Vintage Computers (www.ncf.ca/~ba600) From mythtech at Mac.com Tue Oct 23 22:09:00 2001 From: mythtech at Mac.com (Chris) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:57 2005 Subject: CoCo I (gilded, maybe?) was Re: CoCo 3 hot or hmmm Message-ID: >Does any on know what eBay gets for his folly? When it doesn't sell, he will be able to reprice it and relist for free, if it doesn't sell the 2nd time, he will owe ebay $3.30 Not a bad loss to test the waters for a sucker -chris From jfoust at threedee.com Tue Oct 23 22:05:17 2001 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:57 2005 Subject: Mentor Graphics Storage unit 6000 In-Reply-To: <000701c15c30$973e1b60$0101a8c0@sympatico.ca> Message-ID: <4.3.2.7.0.20011023220238.0238fb40@pc> At 10:05 PM 10/23/01 -0400, Mike Kenzie wrote: >What is it? >It says Mentor Graphics Storage Unit 6000 on the front panel >HP C2213d.... >class 1 laser... > on the back >I was told it was an external SCSI drive. The HP C2213 was a 664 MB hard drive. Mentor Graphics has mutated several times over the years. It looks like they have a user group at http://www.mentorug.org/sigs/ . Perhaps someone there can tell you more about it. - John From john_boffemmyer_iv at boff-net.dhs.org Tue Oct 23 22:30:13 2001 From: john_boffemmyer_iv at boff-net.dhs.org (John Boffemmyer IV) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:57 2005 Subject: ASSORTED COMPUTER PARTS!! L@@K HERE!! In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20011023232916.00a52b80@sokieserv.dhs.org> Did someone say SCSI cards? I'd love to grab some SCSI -John At 06:52 AM 10/22/01, you wrote: >If you are interested in any items let me know and I'll forward you an >image of the part. > >Here's the list: > >IBM PS/2 LX 40 Laptop (complete, including powersupply, battery and modem >- Needs CMOS battery replaced) > >Compaq LTE 286 Laptop parts: > >-Battery pack > >-Floppy drive > >-Harddrive > >-Motherboard > >-Memory expansion card > > >Compaq LTE 386 s/20 Laptop parts: > >-Battery pack > >-Floppy drive > >-Harddrive > >-Modem > >-Power supply board (?) > >Apple Computers: > >* Power Macintosh 6100/66 > DOS Compatible > 6100 DOS compatible. Card includes a 66 MHz 486DX2 CPU, SVGA output, > and a single SIMM slot supporting up to 32 MB RAM > >* Apple Desktob Bus Mouse II > >* Assorted apple cables > One monitor/printer cable > One 8-pin keyboard (?) cable > >* Apple OneScanner > w/ 2 SCSI Ports + cable > >* Apple Multiple Scan 15 Display > 15" monitor w/15-pin plug > >* Two Apple Keyboard II units > >* Apple ImageWriter II > Color Printer with Paper Tray Feeder > >MONITORS/Serial Terminals: > >* Wyse technologies Monitor/terminal w/parallell/phone line ports (15") >* NCD Monitor/Terminal w/parallell/thin/serial ports(15"-color) >* Seiko Instruments 15" Monitor (color) > >I also have the following motherboards available: > >* Compaq Motherboard for 486 processor w/4 Slot ISA Riser board and >4 72-pin memory bays >(Copyright 1992, 93,94) > Built in Mouse, keyboard, graphics card, and paralell ports > Board # 03433-001 > >* Dual processor motherboard for 486 and 386 processors w/8 ISA Slots >Unknown board brand, copyright 1992 > 8 30-pin SIMM memory bays > AMI BIOS // American Megatrends/Symphony chips > S/N 58000 > >* Dual processor motherboard for 386 and 286 (?) processors w/8 ISA Slots >Unknown board brand, copyright 1986-1990 > 8 30-pin SIMM memory bays > AMI BIOS // American Megatrends/Symphony/Twinhead chips > FM-SC386 > >* DELL Computer Corp. motherboard for 486 processor w/3 Slot ISA Riser >board and 4 72-pin memory bays,copyright 1991 > Built in Mouse, keyboard, graphics card, and paralell ports > 16577 A7 0141 WS(?) > >* Micronics Computers Inc. Dual processor motherboard for 486 and 386 (?) >processors w/8 ISA slots and 8 30-pin SIMM memory bays > Phoenix BIOS // Intel Copyright 1977 /CHIPS on-board chips > >* Micronics Computers Inc. (??) Dual processor motherboard for two 486 >processors w/8 ISA slots and 4 72-pin memory bays and cache slot > Copyright 1993 > Phoenix BIOS // FLASH/CHIPS/Micronics on-board chips > >* Dtk Dual processor motherboard for 386 and 286 (?) processors w/8 >assorted length ISA slots > Copyright 1987 Dallas/Texas Instruments/Mitsubish/Citizen/VLSI > on- board chips > >(All boards are working as far as I know, they were pulled out of working >computers) > >I also have several 5.25" floppy drives (TEAC, EPSON, Others) > >I have older Miniscribe and Epson harddrives > >I have one tower and two boxes w/power supply ready for assembly > >Also, several older graphics cards, IDE expansion cards, SCSI cards, >serial port cards, and many other older components of the like. > >Power supply. Numerous sizes and options > >Additionally, I have several sets of 30-PIN SIMM Memory cards and one >Cache (256K) card > >Please let me know if you or anyone else you know is interested in >acquiring any of this hardware. > >Feel free to email me for further info. > >Sincerely, > >H. Sven Fernandez >Hattiesburg, Mississippi > > >Make a difference, help support the relief efforts in the U.S. >http://clubs.lycos.com/live/events/september11.asp ---------------------------------------- Founder, Lead Writer, Tech Analyst and Web Designer Boff-Net Technologies http://boff-net.dhs.org/index.html --------------------------------------- From john_boffemmyer_iv at boff-net.dhs.org Tue Oct 23 22:31:18 2001 From: john_boffemmyer_iv at boff-net.dhs.org (John Boffemmyer IV) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:57 2005 Subject: ISA cards for free... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20011023233056.00a568f0@sokieserv.dhs.org> Cool, old ISA SCSI, from Seagate no less. I'm game =) -John At 09:21 AM 10/23/01, you wrote: >Hello all, > >Cleanout time again... I have the following ISA cards available for cost of >postage only. These cards were part of a lot I picked up just for the two >Compaticard II cards that were in the pile :-). > >Let me know what you want. In fairness to international and digest readers, >if I get more offers than I have of a certain card, then I will throw names >into a hat and pick. > >These should be fairly cheap to ship, as they all are light... > >Also, they are UNTESTED, and given to you AS-IS... > >Here we go: > >Boards from Zenith Z-150 >- CPU Board 85-2889-1 -- 8088, keyboard port, ROMs, etc >- Disk Controller Board 85-2890-1 -- 2 WD 8250, i8272, external ports >- Memory Board 85-2891-1 -- 5 banks of 9 4164 chips >- Video Board 85-2945-1 -- 6845, 2732 ROM, D9 and RCA outputs >- 8-slot backplane board 85-2964-1 -- 8 8-bit ISA slots, power connector > >Qty. 3 8-bit ISA VGA cards -- Paradise chipset, 8 MB81464-12 memory chips > >Qty. 1 8-bit ISA VGA card, renaissance chipset, 8 D41464C-10 memory chips > >Qty. 3 8-bit Seagate ISA cards, SCSI??, EPROM marked Seagate ST01/02 BIOS, >TI CF61891FN, 50-pin header > >Qty. 1 8-bit ISA card, marked "UPS Monitoring Board, Copyright 89 APCC" >Switch settings silkscreened on board > >Qty. 2 8-bit ISA cards, marked "ASYNC CARD 1501485APS" -- INS 8250, 25-pin >male connector > >Qty. 1 8-bit Everex ISA card, I believe SCSI controller -- PWA-00081-0002 >EV-833, 50-pin header, 62-pin high-density connector out the back, 8085AP-2, >8257C, 6116, 27C64, TI CF60128N, Everex custom chip > >Qty. 1 16-bit ISA SCSI card, Adaptec AHA-1542B, w/ 50-pin ribbon cable > >Qty. 1 16-bit full-length ISA SCSI card, board marked AHA-1542A, custom chip >marked AHA-1540A -- No floppy connector, 50-pin SCSI connector, no connector >out the back. -- 50-pin header has some bent pins. > >Qty. 4 8-bit 3/4 length ISA floppy controller -- 37-pin D connector out the >back, 34-pin edge connector along the front edge of the card. No obvious >manufacturer's markings. Three have the i8272 chip, one has an NEC 765. > >Qty. 6 8-bit 1/2 length ISA floppy controller card. One uses the NEC 765, >Two use the Zilog Z0765A08PSC, and three use the i8272. All have no >connector out the back, and a 34-pin edge connector along the front edge of >the card. One is marked "Kouwell KF-503C" > >"They that can give up essential liberty >to obtain a little temporary safety deserve >neither liberty nor safety." -- Ben Franklin ---------------------------------------- Founder, Lead Writer, Tech Analyst and Web Designer Boff-Net Technologies http://boff-net.dhs.org/index.html --------------------------------------- From cmcmanis at mcmanis.com Tue Oct 23 22:41:10 2001 From: cmcmanis at mcmanis.com (Chuck McManis) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:57 2005 Subject: SPAM Avoidance Re: List Maintenance In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.0.20011023143347.023b32e0@pc> References: <10110231829.ZM19029@mindy.dunnington.u-net.com> Message-ID: <5.0.0.25.2.20011023203855.01b1ae50@209.185.79.193> >If I were writing an e-mail harvester, I'm sure >I'd have quite an extensive subroutine that looked >for known patterns of spam-avoidance, and how to >undo them. Actually the best spam avoidance technique I've found is as follows: if you can create email addresses for a domain then set your email address to be 'abuse@domain.name' and make sure you're domain name isn't used as a spam harbor (open relay mailer, etc) All the spam harvesters apparently prune the name 'abuse' from their lists as they don't want to send mail to the abuse addresses and get themselves nailed. --Chuck From john_boffemmyer_iv at boff-net.dhs.org Tue Oct 23 22:36:05 2001 From: john_boffemmyer_iv at boff-net.dhs.org (John Boffemmyer IV) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:57 2005 Subject: Um, SOL50 fell in my lap In-Reply-To: <000201c15c1c$e43988a0$b97ba8c0@ne.mediaone.net> References: <5.1.0.14.2.20011023091646.00a46420@sokieserv.dhs.org> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20011023233434.009de500@sokieserv.dhs.org> Sorry Chandra =( Where from? Maybe I can meet up with ya and and you can loan it for a while? It is a nifty item to tinker with. -John At 07:46 PM 10/23/01, you wrote: >Some guys have all the luck! :-) >Congrats! >-Chandra > > >-----Original Message----- >From: owner-classiccmp@classiccmp.org >[mailto:owner-classiccmp@classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of John Boffemmyer IV >Sent: Tuesday, October 23, 2001 9:18 AM >To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org >Subject: Um, SOL50 fell in my lap > >some old guy handed me a SOL50 with teletype, working and a huge box of >documentation, boards, etc. also, 2 thinkertoys 750mb external drives >for >it. no monitor though. nice toy =) >-John > >---------------------------------------- >Founder, Lead Writer, Tech Analyst >and Web Designer Boff-Net Technologies >http://boff-net.dhs.org/index.html >--------------------------------------- ---------------------------------------- Founder, Lead Writer, Tech Analyst and Web Designer Boff-Net Technologies http://boff-net.dhs.org/index.html --------------------------------------- From acme_ent at bellsouth.net Tue Oct 23 22:40:29 2001 From: acme_ent at bellsouth.net (Glen Goodwin) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:57 2005 Subject: Ken Slusser Message-ID: <20011024034540.TUZD8423.imf06bis.bellsouth.net@thegoodw> > I talked to Ken this afternoon. > He needs 3-4K to cover the back rent on the storage > and is looking for someone to take all this stuff and > sell it on eBay for him. He thinks it's worth $100000 Well, hey, if a CoCo is worth $2500 . . . Glen 0/0 From foo at siconic.com Tue Oct 23 23:13:07 2001 From: foo at siconic.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:57 2005 Subject: Reading non-PC format floppies In-Reply-To: <299.696T350T13153651optimus@canit.se> Message-ID: On 23 Oct 2001, Iggy Drougge wrote: > Go to hell, Ismail. There is a name for your disease, and itäs called > rudeness. Why do you feel such an urge to insult everyone and > everything on this list? Hahahaha. That's funny. You're being facetious right? I mean, you're the one that is always telling people to go to hell and all. Time for your medication. Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org From foo at siconic.com Tue Oct 23 23:15:51 2001 From: foo at siconic.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:57 2005 Subject: Reading non-PC format floppies In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Tue, 23 Oct 2001, Tony Duell wrote: > Does the above make me clueless. IMHO not (although it may mean I am > not a programemr). There are probably people here who don't understand > some of the hardware-related things that are second-nature to me. I > don't regard such people as clueless, just that they have different > knowledge. I probably wouldn't consider some of those people to be > hardware hackers though. And in much the same way I don't consider > myself to be a programmer. Maybe I've over-estimated you, but I still think you're being modest ;) Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org From foo at siconic.com Tue Oct 23 23:20:55 2001 From: foo at siconic.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:57 2005 Subject: Reading non-PC format floppies In-Reply-To: <008701c15c28$d1947820$21fe54a6@ibm23xhr06> Message-ID: On Tue, 23 Oct 2001, John Allain wrote: > I generally don't like certain rudenesses used indescriminantly, > maybe more than most. Here I understood Sellam to be making > humor, or at least that's how I saw it this time. Yes, thank you. Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org From h.wolter at sympatico.ca Wed Oct 24 00:25:46 2001 From: h.wolter at sympatico.ca (Heinz Wolter) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:57 2005 Subject: value of classic DEC machines? References: <20011024034540.TUZD8423.imf06bis.bellsouth.net@thegoodw> Message-ID: <01a501c15c4c$55f9f900$3a92a8c0@MAGGIE> We'll if there's a complete working PDP-10 (KL10), with disks, it might have a collector value of 20-30K$US, but you'd have to search carefully to find a rich buyer... Now a PDP-1 would certainly be worth 100KUS$, as might a KA10 or KI10. If all that was needed to cover back-rent was 3-4KUS$, then a couple of PDP-8s or early PDP-11s should do the trick. There are collectors out there like Mr. Allen paying big dollars for not so rare machines...I've even heard of unscrupulous "museum" collectors selling off machines that were donated to so called ~not-for-profit~ organizations. I don't think paying the rent is a bad idea, but selling off donated valuable items for huge personal profit is wrong, unless of course, you paid for or removed the machines, made no misrepresentations, and it's a legitimate business. Still no matter what the source, it would bet better for these machines to find good homes (even in eccentric millionaire's collections) than to end up in the scrap heap or raped for their gold plating. I wonder what item Al K. is looking for that could be worth any good part of 100KUS$, or 3KUS$ ;) Regards, Heinz Wolter Glen Goodwin wrote : > > I talked to Ken this afternoon. > > He needs 3-4K to cover the back rent on the storage > > and is looking for someone to take all this stuff and > > sell it on eBay for him. He thinks it's worth $100000 > > Well, hey, if a CoCo is worth $2500 . . . > From pjschilling at gcstech.net Wed Oct 24 03:20:39 2001 From: pjschilling at gcstech.net (Phil Schilling) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:57 2005 Subject: first step getting VAX 6000-400 booted ... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Gunther, Slightly off your topic, but did you convert the power to 220 single phase on your 6000? If so exactly which reference did you follow. I need to set up both my 6000 and the drive array for single phase so I can get them fired up. Thanks Phil Schilling GCS Tech -----Original Message----- From: owner-classiccmp@classiccmp.org [mailto:owner-classiccmp@classiccmp.org]On Behalf Of Gunther Schadow Sent: Tuesday, October 23, 2001 1:02 PM To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org; port-vax@netbsd.org Subject: first step getting VAX 6000-400 booted ... Hi, after my pretty good VAX treck last weekend (more details coming up on my project web site at a later time) I finally have SDI disks. I hooked one up last night and did all the checking as per the RA9x manual (yes I have one plus many more, will scan those at some time...) and it seems to be O.K. (even though it was pretty messed up stored in a barn among lots of birds for many years). Here is one para about where I am at and then I have some specific questions for Geoff Roberts or Ragge or anyone who has had experienced any luck with getting a 6000 up to operation. I have bootable tape for Ultrix 4.1 and VMS 5.3 both TK50. None of them work. I seem to have no luck with the TK70 and I have no way finding out what's wrong. I tried to boot from that RA90 disk, even though I don't know what's on it. It has unit #0, so I thought it might be a system disk. But that too failed with some I/O error very early in the process. I also have a TU81+ and VMS bootable tape on 9-track, maybe that's more reliable? Tonight's project is to move the TU81+ into the basement and hook it up. I'm afraid I'll get stuck there too and what then? Network booting? Here's some more detail and questions: The TK50 boot proceeds for quite a while, although it never shows any message on the console about where it is at before it halts due to some unspecified error. However, about one or two minutes into the tape running the system-panel's FAULT light comes on and at the same time both yellow and green LEDs on the TKB70 board extinguish. That's for about a second or two. Then the lights go back to normal and the fault light turned off. Another 30 seconds to a minute tape streaming and the same light-spiel happens again: fault on, TKB70 LEDs off, and back to normal. Now a shorter time (like 10 seconds) of tape streaming and again. From now on that repeats for about 4 or 5 more cycles and finally the system is halted and console says: system halted due to previous error. However, no error message is being printed. I have no idea where I am in the process. I have tried cleaning the TK70 read/write head of course. I have tried a different copy of that Ultrix tape. It's always the same. Is this bliking of fault and shutting off of both TBK70 LEDs normal for media read errors or does it indicate something more serious? How can I tell where in the process I am? Is there an error flag somewhere in memory that I could EXAMINE to find out what is wrong? BTW: at first I had my CIBCA cards in and the boot process would halt earlier: system would say "insufficient memory for CI" and "10% or more of the memory is bad". Who is checking memory there? I could not find anything in Ultrix 4.2 sources that would generate such a message. And why would it anyway, because my system check tells me that I have 512 MB of memory OK. Or does it speak of 10% of the CIBCA's internal memory? Is there a boot flag that I could turn on that would cause the loader etc. to be more verbose? Has anyone tried booting Ultrix over the network? I am going to try that but all I have is Ultrix on TK50 (that doesn't work) and sources without any VAX running to compile them on. Is there a cross compiler suite? I'd like to compile with the DEBUG flag set. Thanks for your suggestions, -Gunther -- Gunther_Schadow-------------------------------http://aurora.rg.iupui.edu Regenstrief Institute for Health Care 1050 Wishard Blvd., Indianapolis IN 46202, Phone: (317) 630 7960 schadow@aurora.rg.iupui.edu------------------#include From als at thangorodrim.de Wed Oct 24 03:38:14 2001 From: als at thangorodrim.de (Alexander Schreiber) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:57 2005 Subject: SPAM Avoidance Re: List Maintenance In-Reply-To: <5.0.0.25.2.20011023203855.01b1ae50@209.185.79.193> References: <10110231829.ZM19029@mindy.dunnington.u-net.com> <5.0.0.25.2.20011023203855.01b1ae50@209.185.79.193> Message-ID: <20011024103814.A6668@mordor.angband.thangorodrim.de> On Tue, Oct 23, 2001 at 08:41:10PM -0700, Chuck McManis wrote: > > >If I were writing an e-mail harvester, I'm sure > >I'd have quite an extensive subroutine that looked > >for known patterns of spam-avoidance, and how to > >undo them. > > Actually the best spam avoidance technique I've found is as follows: > if you can create email addresses for > a domain then > set your email address to be 'abuse@domain.name' > and make sure you're domain name isn't used > as a spam harbor (open relay mailer, etc) Please don't do that - trying to escape SPAM is not an excuse to violate well established standards. Please have a look at RFC 2142. Regards, Alex. -- q: If you were young again, would you start writing TeX again or would you use Microsoft Word, or another word processor? a: I hope to die before I *have* to use Microsoft Word. -- asking Donald E. Knuth From CAA007216 at mail.ono.es Wed Oct 24 04:45:50 2001 From: CAA007216 at mail.ono.es (Sergio Pedraja Cabo) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:57 2005 Subject: Univac I Graphic Simulator Aid Message-ID: <512774bc29.4bc2951277@ono.com> Hello. I just begin the development of the Univac I simulator. By the moment I am doing one simple prototype of the CPU with all the Instruction Set and the Registers, plus ten simulated Uniservos in form of ten plain ascii files. I don't try to reproduce by the moment the timings or the exact cycle of the data and/or instructions along the system. In a later issue I have the intention to convert the simulator in one Bob Supnik's Simh compatible. And, finally, I shall try to develop one GUI for the Sim, and here is where I need some kind of help. All the photographs I have are in black and white, and I need some help about the real color of the Univac I components. I am working actually with the Supervisory Control (the Huge Console of the Univac I) and I need to know if somebody knows its exact colors: that is, of the Metallic components, and the light and blinking colors too. All help should be agreed. Thanks and Best Regards Sergio Pedraja From CAA007216 at mail.ono.es Wed Oct 24 05:04:00 2001 From: CAA007216 at mail.ono.es (Sergio Pedraja Cabo) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:57 2005 Subject: Caddy for one DEC-RDD40 external cdrom unit Message-ID: <4f2da49b4a.49b4a4f2da@ono.com> Hello. Do anyone has one Caddy for one DEC-RDD40 external cdrom unit ? Mine starts and is detected but need this item to work. Thanks Sergio Pedraja From alan.pearson at cramer.com Wed Oct 24 05:19:39 2001 From: alan.pearson at cramer.com (Alan Pearson) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:57 2005 Subject: What people "should" know Message-ID: > YEsterday, somebody here (sorry, I can't remember who -- Alan Pearson?) yup, that was me :-) > admit that I don't have a clue about whatever bit of Java he claims people > should understand. Hang on, I'm only moaning about CS graddies who have been taught Java for a year at college :-) java.lang.Object is the base class of everything in Java, if they don't know that after being taught it for a whole year then they know nothing much about Java, IMHO. Probably don't know a great deal about inheritance either. It only annoys me when I end up interviewing them and their CV says "studied Java programming for 1 year, in-depth understanding of language & APIs", when they plainly know jack (in a box). Doesn't mean anyone else should know it, only people who claim to "know Java". > Nor could I make any obvious comments about #include . > It doesn't look particularly bad to me. As you say, you're not a programmer. I wouldn't expect you to make any comments. But people who have been taught C++ would recognise that this is not the "done thing". To quote Gordon The Big Engine (sorry, too many kids videos!), "it isn't wrong, but we just don't do it" :-) > Does the above make me clueless. Not at all, if I had 1/10th your hardware knowledge I'd be a very happy chappy :) -al From foo at siconic.com Wed Oct 24 05:17:31 2001 From: foo at siconic.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:57 2005 Subject: value of classic DEC machines? In-Reply-To: <01a501c15c4c$55f9f900$3a92a8c0@MAGGIE> Message-ID: On Wed, 24 Oct 2001, Heinz Wolter wrote: > We'll if there's a complete working PDP-10 (KL10), with disks, it > might have a collector value of 20-30K$US, but you'd have to search > carefully to find a rich buyer... "Might" being the operative word. > Now a PDP-1 would certainly be worth 100KUS$, ...to a collector who had US$100K to throw away and absolutely HAS to have the first PDP-1 he comes across or else he'll die, no exceptions. I can't think of any such collector that exists. > There are collectors out there like Mr. Allen paying big dollars for > not so rare machines... The particular frenzy you are referring to bombed out with the stock market. I think you misread the message, but I just wanted to dispel the myths you forwarded :) Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org From dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com Wed Oct 24 06:33:52 2001 From: dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com (Douglas Quebbeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:57 2005 Subject: value of classic DEC machines? Message-ID: <7A9BACCEF0171D4FB77019F5104CDD37225827@jeffserver.tegjeff.com> Heinz Wolter wrote: > Glen Goodwin wrote : > > > I talked to Ken this afternoon. > > > He needs 3-4K to cover the back rent on the storage > > > and is looking for someone to take all this stuff and > > > sell it on eBay for him. He thinks it's worth $100000 > > > > Well, hey, if a CoCo is worth $2500 . . . > > We'll if there's a complete working PDP-10 (KL10), with > disks, it might have a collector value of 20-30K$US, > but you'd have to search carefully to find a rich buyer... I know of three in private hands, and I think they were each acquired at not cost. > Now a PDP-1 would certainly be worth 100KUS$, > as might a KA10 or KI10. If all that was needed to > cover back-rent was 3-4KUS$, then a couple of PDP-8s > or early PDP-11s should do the trick. The PDP-1, working, complete, might well be worth US$10K, but it's unlikely he's got one. Probably a boatload of Vaxen & -11 stuff. Or maybe even Alpha. > There are collectors out there like Mr. Allen paying > big dollars for not so rare machines...I've even heard > of unscrupulous "museum" collectors selling off machines > that were donated to so called ~not-for-profit~ organizations. > I don't think paying the rent is a bad idea, but selling off > donated valuable items for huge personal profit is wrong, > unless of course, you paid for or removed the machines, > made no misrepresentations, and it's a legitimate business. The Bostom Computer Museum was trying to support itself by selling modules from systems that weren't complete. > Still no matter what the source, it would bet better for these > machines to find good homes (even in eccentric millionaire's > collections) than to end up in the scrap heap or raped for their > gold plating. On this, we agree... > I wonder what item Al K. is looking for that could be worth > any good part of 100KUS$, or 3KUS$ ;) I don't think anything that expensive is in Al's budget... Though wouldn't we all love to have a sugardaddy like that! -dq From r.stek at snet.net Wed Oct 24 06:53:19 2001 From: r.stek at snet.net (Bob Stek) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:57 2005 Subject: Um, SOL50 fell in my lap Message-ID: <000001c15c82$7c50f9b0$0201a8c0@bob> Do you mean a SOL-20 by Processor Technology? Also, Morrow Designs (Thinkertoys) made 8" SS DD and DS DD floppy drives - 512k to 1024k. Or are you referring to something completely different? From r_beaudry at hotmail.com Wed Oct 24 07:00:27 2001 From: r_beaudry at hotmail.com (Rich Beaudry) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:57 2005 Subject: ISA cards for free... Message-ID: >Date: Tue, 23 Oct 2001 09:13:58 -0700 >From: Geoff Reed >Subject: Re: ISA cards for free... >At 09:21 AM 10/23/01 -0400, you wrote: >>Hello all, >> >>Cleanout time again... I have the following ISA cards available for cost of >>postage only. These cards were part of a lot I picked up just for the two >>Compaticard II cards that were in the pile :-). > >You lucky bastige :) Yup, but it's the law of affinity. I bought a nice Compaticard IV (thanks Don!), but have yet to get it working with my 8" drives (no tech problems, just too busy). Then I found a Compaticard II on eBay for a decent price, then I found these two in another lot from eBay. One of them is odd in the sense that it has a D-connector out the back (37 pin, I think), but no internal 34-pin header for a floppy cable. It doesn't look modified, so I think it came from the factory that way.... Weird. Also, EVERYONE wants the SCSI cards, so I'll be putting names in a hat... I'll wait a day and then draw straws :-) Rich B. From cbajpai at mediaone.net Wed Oct 24 07:14:46 2001 From: cbajpai at mediaone.net (Chandra Bajpai) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:57 2005 Subject: Um, SOL50 fell in my lap In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20011023233434.009de500@sokieserv.dhs.org> Message-ID: <000201c15c85$790d3900$b97ba8c0@ne.mediaone.net> I'm in Boston...are you any where near here? -----Original Message----- From: owner-classiccmp@classiccmp.org [mailto:owner-classiccmp@classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of John Boffemmyer IV Sent: Tuesday, October 23, 2001 11:36 PM To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org Subject: RE: Um, SOL50 fell in my lap Sorry Chandra =( Where from? Maybe I can meet up with ya and and you can loan it for a while? It is a nifty item to tinker with. -John At 07:46 PM 10/23/01, you wrote: >Some guys have all the luck! :-) >Congrats! >-Chandra > > >-----Original Message----- >From: owner-classiccmp@classiccmp.org >[mailto:owner-classiccmp@classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of John Boffemmyer IV >Sent: Tuesday, October 23, 2001 9:18 AM >To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org >Subject: Um, SOL50 fell in my lap > >some old guy handed me a SOL50 with teletype, working and a huge box of >documentation, boards, etc. also, 2 thinkertoys 750mb external drives >for >it. no monitor though. nice toy =) >-John > >---------------------------------------- >Founder, Lead Writer, Tech Analyst >and Web Designer Boff-Net Technologies >http://boff-net.dhs.org/index.html >--------------------------------------- ---------------------------------------- Founder, Lead Writer, Tech Analyst and Web Designer Boff-Net Technologies http://boff-net.dhs.org/index.html --------------------------------------- From geneb at deltasoft.com Wed Oct 24 09:02:02 2001 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (Gene Buckle) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:57 2005 Subject: CoCo I (gilded, maybe?) was Re: CoCo 3 hot or hmmm In-Reply-To: <3BD6027A.592A3239@mail.verizon.net> Message-ID: > > > At 12:54 PM 10/21/01 -0700, you wrote: > > > >This guy on eBay seems to think CoCos are worth a lot more. > > > >His feedback count speaks volumes. Enjoy! > > > > > > > >http://cgi.ebay.com/aw-cgi/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=1287368755 > > > Let me see if I get this right. $2,500.00 for a 4K CoCo I. No pedigree. Bwhahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha! *gasp* Bwahahahahahahahaha! *ahem* I'm ok now. Really. (hysterical laughter begins anew as Gene wanders off) g. From allain at panix.com Wed Oct 24 09:02:12 2001 From: allain at panix.com (John Allain) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:57 2005 Subject: value of classic DEC machines? References: Message-ID: <002101c15c94$7af0c840$8a0101ac@ibm23xhr06> >> Now a PDP-1 would certainly be worth 100KUS$, >..to a collector who had US$100K to throw away and > absolutely HAS to have the first PDP-1... Worth, Costs, Is Valued at... all highly relativistic concepts don't you think? What about history? My book says that only 50 PDP-1's were produced. Almost certainly 50%++ were scrapped. Anybody know where all the PDP-1's are? I'd like to see one (or more). John A. BTW, on thread. A good clean runnung PDP-11 with SW and docs can fetch over $4K, to the original question. John A. From rhblakeman at kih.net Wed Oct 24 09:04:59 2001 From: rhblakeman at kih.net (Russ Blakeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:57 2005 Subject: Caddy for one DEC-RDD40 external cdrom unit In-Reply-To: <4f2da49b4a.49b4a4f2da@ono.com> Message-ID: Is it the standard cdrom caddy? If so many retailers still sell them new at about $7 USD and they can be found through surplusers and on ebay. I have a bunch of them but until I replace the 2x and 4x ones with the newly acquired 12x tray types I can't let go of any. Are you in Spain? -> -----Original Message----- -> From: owner-classiccmp@classiccmp.org -> [mailto:owner-classiccmp@classiccmp.org]On Behalf Of Sergio Pedraja Cabo -> Sent: Wednesday, October 24, 2001 5:04 AM -> To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org -> Subject: Caddy for one DEC-RDD40 external cdrom unit -> -> -> Hello. -> -> Do anyone has one Caddy for one DEC-RDD40 external cdrom unit ? -> Mine starts and is detected but need this item to work. -> -> Thanks -> -> Sergio Pedraja -> -> -> -> From allain at panix.com Wed Oct 24 09:07:00 2001 From: allain at panix.com (John Allain) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:57 2005 Subject: Caddy for one DEC-RDD40 external cdrom unit References: <4f2da49b4a.49b4a4f2da@ono.com> Message-ID: <002d01c15c95$2684bb80$8a0101ac@ibm23xhr06> > Do anyone has one Caddy for one DEC-RDD40 external > cdrom unit ? I have spares for the '42. if they're the same as the '40 you can have one. I think they're Very common. I don't think I've seen a caddied CDROM drive that Doesn't use this type of caddy. John A. From mrbill at mrbill.net Wed Oct 24 09:32:14 2001 From: mrbill at mrbill.net (Bill Bradford) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:57 2005 Subject: Ken Slusser In-Reply-To: <200110240049.RAA03408@spies.com> References: <200110240049.RAA03408@spies.com> Message-ID: <20011024093214.O29706@mrbill.net> On Tue, Oct 23, 2001 at 05:49:58PM -0700, Al Kossow wrote: > I talked to Ken this afternoon. > He needs 3-4K to cover the back rent on the storage > and is looking for someone to take all this stuff and > sell it on eBay for him. He thinks it's worth $100000 If I'd known that, I wouldnt have even forwarded the message. sigh. This is NOT 1984, its not worth 100K. Bill -- Bill Bradford mrbill@mrbill.net Austin, TX From Antonio.Carlini at riverstonenet.com Wed Oct 24 09:39:43 2001 From: Antonio.Carlini at riverstonenet.com (Carlini, Antonio) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:57 2005 Subject: Caddy for one DEC-RDD40 external cdrom unit Message-ID: <3820E2042B6ED5118DC200D0B78EDC470661BF@exc-reo1> John Allain [mailto:allain@panix.com] > I have spares for the '42. if they're the same as the '40 you > can have one. I think they're Very common. I don't think > I've seen a caddied CDROM drive that Doesn't use this > type of caddy. The RRD42 is (IIRC) a Sony unit (possibly with modified firmware). It takes a "standard" caddy. The RRD40 is a much older Philips(?) CD-ROM (1x) and it takes a caompletely different form of CD holder (often referred to as "antlers"). FWIW: the RRD43 is a tray-loader and the RRD44 is back to a caddy. The first DEC CDROM drive was the RRD50, which was essentially a tabletop, caddyless (flip open the top and load CD) RRD40 (except, I believe, *slower*!!). I have at least one RRD40 CD holder, which I can supply if noone nearer can dig one up (I'm in the UK). Antonio From vance at ikickass.org Wed Oct 24 09:55:24 2001 From: vance at ikickass.org (One Without Reason) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:57 2005 Subject: value of classic DEC machines? In-Reply-To: <002101c15c94$7af0c840$8a0101ac@ibm23xhr06> Message-ID: On Wed, 24 Oct 2001, John Allain wrote: > BTW, on thread. A good clean runnung PDP-11 with SW > and docs can fetch over $4K, to the original question. Really? I wonder how much my 11/70 with all original fuses, bulbs, switches, etc. is worth. Peace... Sridhar From spedraja at ono.com Wed Oct 24 10:06:46 2001 From: spedraja at ono.com (SP) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:57 2005 Subject: Caddy for one DEC-RDD40 external cdrom unit Message-ID: <000c01c15c9d$7fb3df80$0301a8c0@marga> >> Do anyone has one Caddy for one DEC-RDD40 external >> cdrom unit ? > >I have spares for the '42. if they're the same as the '40 you >can have one. I think they're Very common. I don't think >I've seen a caddied CDROM drive that Doesn't use this >type of caddy. This caddy don't appears to be the usual caddy that most common CDROM's used. I have one of these and don't go well. The entry ranure of the CD device is more THIN than the others, and this don't work. It can be too a problem of my caddies: I have two NEC caddies to probe, and any of it works. Greetings Sergio From GOOI at oce.nl Wed Oct 24 10:05:18 2001 From: GOOI at oce.nl (Gooijen H) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:57 2005 Subject: Adventure in Ersatz-11 Message-ID: Stupid that I did not think of trying SJ. With SJ entering .R ADVENT starts Adventure also! I assumed that VBG was for Virtual BackGround, so nice to be comfirmed on that. Indeed, I have E11 running on an 486DX2/66, but I cannot give an idea of how fast it runs, compared to a PDP-11. Although E11 can be set to an 11/70, I have set it to /35-40 because that is also the *real* hardware I have. Never set it to /34(A) or to /44. Both those systems I also have running. Next time that I start the 11/35 I will run ADVENT on both of them and measure the time until the welcome message appears on the screen. For the "blinkenlights" check out my webpage. http://home.hetnet.nl/~tshaj/pdpsite/pdpstartpage.html then click in the left pane on the link Homebrew 'PDP-11'. At this moment only the LEDs of the data bus blink. I hope to add a piece of hardware that 'talks' to Ersatz-11 so that the address bus LEDs are also active *and* that the switches function as on the real thing. The goal is that the hardware design can facilitate *any* real PDP-11 console that has switches and lights, from an 11/10 to an 11/70. Of course, this project needs the cooperation of John Wilson, and I had already some preliminary contacts with him. He also likes the option to connect a real console to the demo(!) version of Ersatz-11. -Henk. > -----Original Message----- > From: Jerome Fine [mailto:jhfine@idirect.com] > Sent: woensdag 24 oktober 2001 0:41 > To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org > Subject: Re: Adventure in Ersatz-11 > > > >Gooijen H wrote: > > > Yes !! > > Jerome Fine replies: > > Thank you for the feed back. I was not sure how much memory > ADVENT requires. You might also try: > BOOT RT11SJ > if you wish. > > > Thanks very much, Jerome. > > Booting RT-11FB and then running ADVENT still produces > > the "Insufficient memory" fatal error. > > However, VBGEXE works fine ! > > After the "Welcome to Adventure!! Would you like instructions?" > > and entering 'YES", it goes: Somewhere nearby is Colossal Cave, > > etc. > > This means that I am now going to play Adventure. This has a > > serious drawback on the expansion of my website ... > > I am playing it on my "homebrew-PDP" with the BLINKENLIGHTS on!! > > On my website this project (early phase) has a separate link. > > BTW. What is VBGEXE, what do the letters stand for? > > Thanks again, > > Henk. > > "EXEcute Virtual BackGround program" is how I think of the letters > with the understanding that the word EXEcute is then switched > to the end. > > A few points worth noting. > > (a) If FOO.SAV requires any arguments as in: > "RUN DEV:FOO.SAV arguments" or replace RUN with VBGEXE, > then they must be on the same line. The alternative is the > put all three > parts of the command on separate lines. Otherwise, with just > "VBGEXE DEV:FOO.SAV" on the first line, somehow the request > for information expects the arguments to already be there and if not, > just exits. Entering: > VBGEXE > DEV:FOO.SAV > arguments > on three separate lines works as well. > > (b) The command: > SRUN VBGEXE.SAV/TERMINAL:n/LEVEL:m/NAME:utility > also works very well when you want to run a system job at a > higher priority. > TERMINAL is only useful with a system that has multi-terminal support > LEVEL specifies the system job number ( 1=>6 ) > NAME can be used to automatically select an executable file > called SY:utility.SAV > One minor problem is that if name is omitted, then only ONE > instance of > VBGEXE can be invoked as a system job since the high memory > GRCBs (Global > Region Control Blocks) must all have different names. I have > a small patch > with allows the user to do the command: > SRUN VBGEXE.SAV/TERMINAL:n/LEVEL:m/NAME:VBGEXm > If that is done, each GRCB is given the name VBGEXm making them all > different. This means that no program can have the name VBGEX(1=>6), > a restriction that I assume can be lived with. > > I also remember that modifying TECO to be named VMUNG so that > "VBGEXE VMUNG arguments" > would work the same as > "MUNG arguments" > but use the full 64 KBytes allowed by VBGEXE. > > By the way, I assume that you are using E11 on a PC. Which hardware > and how fast do you find that the code runs compared to any > real PDP-11 > hardware. Plus, I can't remember about the "BLINKENLIGHTS" - what > did you do to have those available? > > Sincerely yours, > > Jerome Fine > > From spedraja at ono.com Wed Oct 24 10:08:59 2001 From: spedraja at ono.com (SP) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:57 2005 Subject: Caddy for one DEC-RDD40 external cdrom unit Message-ID: <001101c15c9d$cf27d6c0$0301a8c0@marga> I'm in Spain, Antonio, in the North (Santander). Thanks. Your option appears to be the better and less expensive, if you permit to me the comment :-) Greetings Sergio -----Mensaje original----- De: Carlini, Antonio Para: 'classiccmp@classiccmp.org' Fecha: mi?rcoles, 24 de octubre de 2001 16:57 Asunto: RE: Caddy for one DEC-RDD40 external cdrom unit >John Allain [mailto:allain@panix.com] >> I have spares for the '42. if they're the same as the '40 you >> can have one. I think they're Very common. I don't think >> I've seen a caddied CDROM drive that Doesn't use this >> type of caddy. > >The RRD42 is (IIRC) a Sony unit (possibly >with modified firmware). It takes >a "standard" caddy. > >The RRD40 is a much older Philips(?) >CD-ROM (1x) and it takes a caompletely >different form of CD holder (often >referred to as "antlers"). > >FWIW: the RRD43 is a tray-loader and >the RRD44 is back to a caddy. The >first DEC CDROM drive was the RRD50, which >was essentially a tabletop, caddyless >(flip open the top and load CD) >RRD40 (except, I believe, *slower*!!). > >I have at least one RRD40 CD holder, >which I can supply if noone nearer >can dig one up (I'm in the UK). > > >Antonio From edick at idcomm.com Wed Oct 24 10:20:57 2001 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:57 2005 Subject: Um, SOL50 fell in my lap References: <000201c15c85$790d3900$b97ba8c0@ne.mediaone.net> Message-ID: <002d01c15c9f$7b5359a0$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> so ... what IS a SOL50??? Bob Stek was thinking maybe a SOL20. What puzzles me is the 750MB disk drives. Thinker Toys certainly never produced a 750 MB drive that I ever heard of, since the biggest hard disks of the era were on the order of 30 MB, and those were the size of a washing machine. This might be quite interesting! Please provide more details. Dick ----- Original Message ----- From: "Chandra Bajpai" To: Sent: Wednesday, October 24, 2001 6:14 AM Subject: RE: Um, SOL50 fell in my lap > I'm in Boston...are you any where near here? > > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-classiccmp@classiccmp.org > [mailto:owner-classiccmp@classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of John Boffemmyer IV > Sent: Tuesday, October 23, 2001 11:36 PM > To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org > Subject: RE: Um, SOL50 fell in my lap > > Sorry Chandra =( Where from? Maybe I can meet up with ya and and you can > > loan it for a while? It is a nifty item to tinker with. > -John > > At 07:46 PM 10/23/01, you wrote: > >Some guys have all the luck! :-) > >Congrats! > >-Chandra > > > > > >-----Original Message----- > >From: owner-classiccmp@classiccmp.org > >[mailto:owner-classiccmp@classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of John Boffemmyer > IV > >Sent: Tuesday, October 23, 2001 9:18 AM > >To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org > >Subject: Um, SOL50 fell in my lap > > > >some old guy handed me a SOL50 with teletype, working and a huge box of > >documentation, boards, etc. also, 2 thinkertoys 750mb external drives > >for > >it. no monitor though. nice toy =) > >-John > > > >---------------------------------------- > >Founder, Lead Writer, Tech Analyst > >and Web Designer Boff-Net Technologies > >http://boff-net.dhs.org/index.html > >--------------------------------------- > > ---------------------------------------- > Founder, Lead Writer, Tech Analyst > and Web Designer Boff-Net Technologies > http://boff-net.dhs.org/index.html > --------------------------------------- > > From GOOI at oce.nl Wed Oct 24 10:14:25 2001 From: GOOI at oce.nl (Gooijen H) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:57 2005 Subject: Caddy for one DEC-RDD40 external cdrom unit Message-ID: Indeed, caddies for the RRD40 are not easy to find. At least over here in The Netherlands. I have a DECstation 3100 with Storage Expansion and RRD40, but I am also still looking for at least one caddy as I do not have any (yet). - Henk. From edick at idcomm.com Wed Oct 24 10:24:33 2001 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:57 2005 Subject: ISA cards for free... References: Message-ID: <003901c15c9f$fbd3c600$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> regarding the SCSI cards ... You know why they're still in demand, doncha? They just don't go out of fashion! MFM, RLL, ESDI, SMD ... they've all gone the way of the passenger pigeon, but SCSI has hung on. I have an old 1986 NCR 8-bit ISA card that still serves just fine. They just keep on going, and going, and going ... Dick ----- Original Message ----- From: "Rich Beaudry" To: Sent: Wednesday, October 24, 2001 6:00 AM Subject: Re: ISA cards for free... > >Date: Tue, 23 Oct 2001 09:13:58 -0700 > >From: Geoff Reed > >Subject: Re: ISA cards for free... > > >At 09:21 AM 10/23/01 -0400, you wrote: > >>Hello all, > >> > >>Cleanout time again... I have the following ISA cards available for cost > of > >>postage only. These cards were part of a lot I picked up just for the two > >>Compaticard II cards that were in the pile :-). > > > >You lucky bastige :) > > Yup, but it's the law of affinity. I bought a nice Compaticard IV (thanks > Don!), but have yet to get it working with my 8" drives (no tech problems, > just too busy). Then I found a Compaticard II on eBay for a decent price, > then I found these two in another lot from eBay. One of them is odd in the > sense that it has a D-connector out the back (37 pin, I think), but no > internal 34-pin header for a floppy cable. It doesn't look modified, so I > think it came from the factory that way.... Weird. > > Also, EVERYONE wants the SCSI cards, so I'll be putting names in a hat... > I'll wait a day and then draw straws :-) > > Rich B. > > From Antonio.Carlini at riverstonenet.com Wed Oct 24 10:46:10 2001 From: Antonio.Carlini at riverstonenet.com (Carlini, Antonio) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:57 2005 Subject: Caddy for one DEC-RDD40 external cdrom unit Message-ID: <3820E2042B6ED5118DC200D0B78EDC470661C3@exc-reo1> > SP [mailto:spedraja@ono.com] > I'm in Spain, Antonio, in the North (Santander). > > Thanks. Your option appears to be the better and less > expensive, if you permit to me the comment :-) > I'll pack one up and try and work out postage on Monday (I'm away from the office after today). I'll let you know how much it is then, if you're still keen and noone else finds one nearer to you. If you can supply a working email address (the one above just bounced ...) then I can talk to you without bothering the rest of the list :-) Antonio arcarlini@iee.org From spedraja at ono.com Wed Oct 24 10:48:53 2001 From: spedraja at ono.com (SP) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:57 2005 Subject: value of classic DEC machines? Message-ID: <002801c15ca3$62143280$0301a8c0@marga> >> BTW, on thread. A good clean runnung PDP-11 with SW >> and docs can fetch over $4K, to the original question. I ever wanted to get one VAX/11 730 like one that we had in my old Computing Courses school and, related with it, a couple of PDP systems, compounding all of them a little network. My hope was that these machines some day could be only trash stuff and this could be the way to get one. In the actual day I only have one PDP-11/23 PLUS that works but only has 256 Kb. of memory, and a diverse stuff that can be connected to it but needs some more additional stuff like a rack support, some boards and cables. Almost everything I need mustbe purchased. A few months ago this appears to be cheap and quick, but not now. And some items destinated to enhance the machine appears very far and expensive, like one expansion memory of 4 megabytes, or one good SCSI board. Of course, I try to don't think anymore in obtain one VAX/11 in any way, or one PDP/11 70 or 44. Even one that I could obtain in UK was cancelled because any transport agency wanted to transport it to my country. And my city even have one regular ferry line with the UK every week !! (this was bad luck, I recognize). In this context, one cause or another can do that one machine like one PDP-11/70 grows in its value until incredible limits. In fact, I check the eBay bidders many times and I see a lot of auctions are bidded and even winned by people with very few (or 0) feedback. Computer collectors matures ? I don't think so. Greetings Sergio From gunther at aurora.regenstrief.org Wed Oct 24 10:56:40 2001 From: gunther at aurora.regenstrief.org (Gunther Schadow) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:58 2005 Subject: first step getting VAX 6000-400 booted ... References: <3BD5B07D.5702C1BA@aurora.regenstrief.org> <002501c15c2e$2a1b2e80$de2c67cb@helpdesk> Message-ID: <3BD6E4B8.8683EDFA@aurora.regenstrief.org> Geoff Roberts wrote: > Hmm, Unit 0 has an excellent chance of being a system disk, but possible it > was > initialised prior to being retired. What's the exact error msg (console dump > is good) I don't have the console dump on that, but the only error message I recollect was: ?3 Device I/O Error (or something very similar.) Would that be the appropriate response on an RA90 drive with wiped-out media? My drive completed all tests, including the spun-down and the spun-up tests (the latter includes disk access tests.) > Tapes are probably sus. TK70's are the least reliable component of a 6000, > but are still pretty reliable compared to the TK50. yack! > > I also have a TU81+ and VMS bootable tape on 9-track, maybe that's more > reliable? > > Very likely, do you have the companion card for the TU81+ (KLESI-B) to go in > the Vax? > They TU81+ is not SDI, so it won't even plug in to the KDB50. If all else > fails I can probably whip > up a tape for you on ours. Instructions on how to write an Ultrix tape from VMS would be cool. I'm sure I can get VMS up. What is the least amount of knowledge that I need to get a VMS system up in single user mode and try a couple of SDI accesses, try reading a TK and writing to a TU? > Not very familiar with Ultrix though I gather it's also possible to mop boot > an ultrix box from a vms one, though I don't think it will do vice versa. It definitely is as the source code says. I'll use my FreeBSD laptop as the boot host. Monitoring with tcpdump is a good way of debugging network booting. Attached below you'll find annotated console dumps from my yesterday's attempts (thanks to xterm :-) My comments are lines starting with "GS>" GS> I have swapped in another TK70 drive (one that may be less worn) GS> and now I turn on the machine: #123456789 0123456789 0123456789 01234567# F E D C B A 9 8 7 6 5 4 3 2 1 0 NODE # A A . A M M M M P P P P P P TYP o o . + + + + + + + + + + + STF . . . . . . . . E E E E E B BPD . . . . . . . . + + + + + + ETF . . . . . . . . E E E E E B BPD . . . . . . . . . + . . + + + . XBI D + . . . . . . . . . + + . + . + . XBI E + . . . . A4 A3 A2 A1 . . . . . . ILV . . . . 128 128 128 128 . . . . . . 512 Mb ROM0 = V4.00 ROM1 = V4.00 EEPROM = 2.03/4.02 SN = AG94408887 >>> SHOW ALL Type Rev 1+ KA64A (8082) 000D 2+ KA64A (8082) 000D 3+ KA64A (8082) 000D 4+ KA64A (8082) 000D 5+ KA64A (8082) 000D 6+ KA64A (8082) 000D 7+ MS65A (4001) 0084 8+ MS65A (4001) 0084 9+ MS65A (4001) 0084 A+ MS65A (4001) 0084 B+ KDM70 (0C22) 2811 D+ DWMBA/A (2001) 0002 E+ DWMBA/A (2001) 0002 XBI D 1+ DWMBA/B (2107) 000A 2+ KLESI-B (0103) 0006 3+ KDB50 (010E) 142C 6+ DEBNI (0118) 0400 XBI E 1+ DWMBA/B (2107) 000A 3+ DMB32 (0109) 0004 5+ CIBCA-B (0108) 41C2 6+ TBK70 (410B) 0307 Current Primary: 1 /NOENABLED- /NOVECTOR_ENABLED- /NOPRIMARY- F E D C B A 9 8 7 6 5 4 3 2 1 0 NODE # . . . . A4 A3 A2 A1 . . . . . . ILV . . . . 128 128 128 128 . . . . . . 512 Mb /INTERLEAVE:DEFAULT /SCOPE /SPEED: 9600 /BREAK English XMI:D BI:6 08-00-2B-34-A5-CA DEFAULT /XMI:E /BI:6 CSA1 TAPE /XMI:E /BI:6 CSA1 ETH0 /XMI:D /BI:6 ET0 SHOW DSSI is not yet implemented GS> Now I have loaded the VMS 6.1 stand alone backup TK70 and go: >>> BOOT /XMI:E /BI:6 CSA1 Initializing system. #123456789 0123456789 0123456789 01234567# F E D C B A 9 8 7 6 5 4 3 2 1 0 NODE # A A . A M M M M P P P P P P TYP o o . + + + + + + + + + + + STF . . . . . . . . E E E E E B BPD . . . . . . . . + + + + + + ETF . . . . . . . . E E E E E B BPD . . . . . . . . . + . . + + + . XBI D + . . . . . . . . . + + . + . + . XBI E + . . . . A4 A3 A2 A1 . . . . . . ILV . . . . 128 128 128 128 . . . . . . 512 Mb ROM0 = V4.00 ROM1 = V4.00 EEPROM = 2.03/4.02 SN = AG94408887 Loading system software. OpenVMS VAX Version V6.1 Major version id = 1 Minor version id = 0c PLEASE ENTER DATE AND TIME (DD-MMM-YYYY HH:MM) 23-OCT-2001 Configuring devices . . . %PAA0, Port Error Bit(s) Set - CNF/PMC/PSR 00000000/00000020/00008280 %PAA0, Port is Reinitializing ( 49 Retries Left). Check the Error Log. GS> oops, what is %PAA0? Something is bad, but what? GS> as you might expect, it gives above error message for each GS> retry 48, 47, 46, ... will not show those here. But there GS> is also other stuff, as if I'm already running multi-tasked. Now configuring HSC, RF, and MSCP-served devices . . . GS> and on with the %PAA0 reinitializations down to 24 %PAA0, Port is Reinitializing ( 24 Retries Left). Check the Error Log. %PAA0, Port Error Bit(s) Set - CNF/PMC/PSR 00000000/00000020/00008280 Please check the names of the devices which have been configured, to make sure that ALL remote devices which you intend to use have been configured. If any device does not show up, please take action now to make it available. GS> in a hurry I power up the RA90 hooked to the KDB50 and spin it up Available device MUC6: device type TK70 %PAA0, Port is Reinitializing ( 23 Retries Left). Check the Error Log. %PAA0, Port Error Bit(s) Set - CNF/PMC/PSR 00000000/00000020/00008280 GS> ... %PAA0, Port is Reinitializing ( 9 Retries Left). Check the Error Log. %PAA0, Port Error Bit(s) Set - CNF/PMC/PSR 00000000/00000020/00008280 Enter "YES" when all needed devices are available: %PAA0, Port is Reinitializing ( 8 Retries Left). Check the Error Log. %PAA0, Port Error Bit(s) Set - CNF/PMC/PSR 00000000/00000020/00008280 Enter "YES" when all needed devices are available: %PAA0, Port is Reinitializing ( 7 Retries Left). Check the Error Log. %PAA0, Port Error Bit(s) Set - CNF/PMC/PSR 00000000/00000020/00008280 Enter "YES" when all needed devices are available: %PAA0, Port is Reinitializing ( 6 Retries Left). Check the Error Log. %PAA0, Port Error Bit(s) Set - CNF/PMC/PSR 00000000/00000020/00008280 Enter "YES" when all needed devices are available: %PAA0, Port is Reinitializing ( 5 Retries Left). Check the Error Log. %PAA0, Port Error Bit(s) Set - CNF/PMC/PSR 00000000/00000020/00008280 Enter "YES" when all needed devices are available: %PAA0, Port is Reinitializing ( 4 Retries Left). Check the Error Log. %PAA0, Port Error Bit(s) Set - CNF/PMC/PSR 00000000/00000020/00008280 Enter "YES" when all needed devices are available: %PAA0, Port is Reinitializing ( 3 Retries Left). Check the Error Log. %PAA0, Port Error Bit(s) Set - CNF/PMC/PSR 00000000/00000020/00008280 Enter "YES" when all needed devices are available: %PAA0, Port is Reinitializing ( 2 Retries Left). Check the Error Log. %PAA0, Port Error Bit(s) Set - CNF/PMC/PSR 00000000/00000020/00008280 Enter "YES" when all needed devices are available: %PAA0, Port is Reinitializing ( 1 Retries Left). Check the Error Log. %PAA0, Port Error Bit(s) Set - CNF/PMC/PSR 00000000/00000020/00008280 Enter "YES" when all needed devices are available: %PAA0, Port is Reinitializing ( 0 Retries Left). Check the Error Log. %PAA0, Port Error Bit(s) Set - CNF/PMC/PSR 00000000/00000020/00008280 Enter "YES" when all needed devices are available: %PAA0, Port is going Offline. Enter "YES" when all needed devices are available: yes %BACKUP-I-IDENT, Stand-alone BACKUP V6.1; the date is 23-OCT-2001 00:03:52.13 $ GS> yea! a prompt! we made it. But what's next? $ help %CLI-W-IVVERB, unrecognized command verb - check validity and spelling \HELP\ GS> ah I give up, I want to see Ultrix up, may be that new GS> drive did it? Hit the reset button, system initializes GS> same as above, swap in the Ultrix TK and go: >>> BOOT /XMI:E /BI:6 CSA1 Initializing system. #123456789 0123456789 0123456789 01234567# F E D C B A 9 8 7 6 5 4 3 2 1 0 NODE # A A . A M M M M P P P P P P TYP o o . + + + + + + + + + + + STF . . . . . . . . E E E E E B BPD . . . . . . . . + + + + + + ETF . . . . . . . . E E E E E B BPD . . . . . . . . . + . . + + + . XBI D + . . . . . . . . . + + . + . + . XBI E + . . . . A4 A3 A2 A1 . . . . . . ILV . . . . 128 128 128 128 . . . . . . 512 Mb ROM0 = V4.00 ROM1 = V4.00 EEPROM = 2.03/4.02 SN = AG94408887 Loading system software. %BOOT-F-Insufficient memory for CI ?06 Halt instruction executed in kernel mode. PC = 0000040Fc SAVPSL = 041F0600 ISP = 00000200 Bootstrap failed due to previous error. >>> GS> this is that CI problem. Now I turn off machine again and GS> remove CI cards. I do have HSC90s to go with it and I definitely GS> want to run CI, but for now I'll start easy. So, power up GS> again. Wait for one initialization again, then: >>> BOOT /XMI:E /BI:6 CSA1 Initializing system. #123456789 0123456789 0123456789 01234567# F E D C B A 9 8 7 6 5 4 3 2 1 0 NODE # A A . A M M M M P P P P P P TYP o o . + + + + + + + + + + + STF . . . . . . . . E E E E E B BPD . . . . . . . . + + + + + + ETF . . . . . . . . E E E E E B BPD . . . . . . . . . + . . + . + . XBI D + . . . . . . . . . + . . + + + . XBI E + . . . . A4 A3 A2 A1 . . . . . . ILV . . . . 128 128 128 128 . . . . . . 512 Mb ROM0 = V4.00 ROM1 = V4.00 EEPROM = 2.03/4.02 SN = AG94408887 Loading system software. ?06 Halt instruction executed in kernel mode. PC = 00280200c SAVPSL = 041F0600 ISP = 00280000 Bootstrap failed due to previous error. >>> GS> here ends my console dump. If it weren't for the many heavy items I still have to shuffle, disassemble, lift and reassemble, I could go mad about the Ultrix folks who have neglected to put some explanatory printf into the boot code before the halt call. It could be so much easier if we knew what the problem is. thanks, -Gunther -- Gunther_Schadow-------------------------------http://aurora.rg.iupui.edu Regenstrief Institute for Health Care 1050 Wishard Blvd., Indianapolis IN 46202, Phone: (317) 630 7960 schadow@aurora.rg.iupui.edu------------------#include From freds at monarch-info.com Wed Oct 24 11:34:10 2001 From: freds at monarch-info.com (Frederick Scholl) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:58 2005 Subject: kalpana Message-ID: <00c801c15ca9$b7ed5fa0$8201a8c0@onsiteaccess.net> I am looking for a Kalpana etherswitch, model EPS-700. Anyone know where to get this? Fred Scholl -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20011024/92e6b2da/attachment.html From mtapley at swri.edu Wed Oct 24 10:59:27 2001 From: mtapley at swri.edu (Mark Tapley) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:58 2005 Subject: Reading non-PC format floppies In-Reply-To: <200110240818.DAA82035@opal.tseinc.com> Message-ID: Tony, with characteristic modesty, said: >I've written programs, sure, but I don't think they're particularly >well-written or elegant programs. They just do the job I need to do. Tony: MICROS~ has what they call "programmers" and they don't get that far. Do I have to win the Indy 500 before I get to be called a "driver", or is it enough if I just make it to the grocery store and back? I'd go ahead and claim credit, were I you. You might say "...not a professional programmer" or "...don't have a formal degree in programming" or even "...not a serious programmer". But if you're able to read kernel sources in order to learn how to successfully use FDRAWCMD, I'd call you a programmer. Sellam: I humbly suggest that more exact forms of expression, at least in international public forums, might avert misunderstandings. - Mark From gunther at aurora.regenstrief.org Wed Oct 24 11:37:22 2001 From: gunther at aurora.regenstrief.org (Gunther Schadow) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:58 2005 Subject: first step getting VAX 6000-400 booted ... References: Message-ID: <3BD6EE42.9A69B20@aurora.regenstrief.org> Phil, I did convert to 220 single. I made my own reference along the way. Here goes: http://aurora.rg.iupui.edu/~schadow/VAX/power.txt regards, -Gunther Phil Schilling wrote: > > Gunther, > Slightly off your topic, but did you convert the power to 220 single phase > on your 6000? If so exactly which reference did you follow. I need to set > up both my 6000 and the drive array for single phase so I can get them fired > up. Thanks > > Phil Schilling > GCS Tech > > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-classiccmp@classiccmp.org > [mailto:owner-classiccmp@classiccmp.org]On Behalf Of Gunther Schadow > Sent: Tuesday, October 23, 2001 1:02 PM > To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org; port-vax@netbsd.org > Subject: first step getting VAX 6000-400 booted ... > > Hi, > > after my pretty good VAX treck last weekend (more details coming > up on my project web site at a later time) I finally have SDI disks. > I hooked one up last night and did all the checking as per the > RA9x manual (yes I have one plus many more, will scan those at > some time...) and it seems to be O.K. (even though it was pretty > messed up stored in a barn among lots of birds for many years). > > Here is one para about where I am at and then I have some > specific questions for Geoff Roberts or Ragge or anyone who > has had experienced any luck with getting a 6000 up to operation. > > I have bootable tape for Ultrix 4.1 and VMS 5.3 both TK50. None > of them work. I seem to have no luck with the TK70 and I have > no way finding out what's wrong. I tried to boot from that RA90 > disk, even though I don't know what's on it. It has unit #0, so > I thought it might be a system disk. But that too failed with > some I/O error very early in the process. I also have a TU81+ and > VMS bootable tape on 9-track, maybe that's more reliable? Tonight's > project is to move the TU81+ into the basement and hook it up. > I'm afraid I'll get stuck there too and what then? Network > booting? > > Here's some more detail and questions: > > The TK50 boot proceeds for quite a while, although it never shows > any message on the console about where it is at before it halts > due to some unspecified error. However, about one or two minutes > into the tape running the system-panel's FAULT light comes on and > at the same time both yellow and green LEDs on the TKB70 board > extinguish. That's for about a second or two. Then the lights > go back to normal and the fault light turned off. Another 30 > seconds to a minute tape streaming and the same light-spiel happens > again: fault on, TKB70 LEDs off, and back to normal. Now a shorter > time (like 10 seconds) of tape streaming and again. From now on that > repeats for about 4 or 5 more cycles and finally the system is > halted and console says: system halted due to previous error. > However, no error message is being printed. I have no idea where > I am in the process. > > I have tried cleaning the TK70 read/write head of course. I have > tried a different copy of that Ultrix tape. It's always the same. > > Is this bliking of fault and shutting off of both TBK70 LEDs > normal for media read errors or does it indicate something more > serious? How can I tell where in the process I am? Is there an > error flag somewhere in memory that I could EXAMINE to find out > what is wrong? > > BTW: at first I had my CIBCA cards in and the boot process would > halt earlier: system would say "insufficient memory for CI" and > "10% or more of the memory is bad". Who is checking memory there? > I could not find anything in Ultrix 4.2 sources that would generate > such a message. And why would it anyway, because my system check > tells me that I have 512 MB of memory OK. Or does it speak of > 10% of the CIBCA's internal memory? > > Is there a boot flag that I could turn on that would cause the > loader etc. to be more verbose? > > Has anyone tried booting Ultrix over the network? I am going to > try that but all I have is Ultrix on TK50 (that doesn't work) > and sources without any VAX running to compile them on. Is there > a cross compiler suite? I'd like to compile with the DEBUG > flag set. > > Thanks for your suggestions, > -Gunther > > -- > Gunther_Schadow-------------------------------http://aurora.rg.iupui.edu > Regenstrief Institute for Health Care > 1050 Wishard Blvd., Indianapolis IN 46202, Phone: (317) 630 7960 > schadow@aurora.rg.iupui.edu------------------#include -- Gunther_Schadow-------------------------------http://aurora.rg.iupui.edu Regenstrief Institute for Health Care 1050 Wishard Blvd., Indianapolis IN 46202, Phone: (317) 630 7960 schadow@aurora.rg.iupui.edu------------------#include From DAW at yalepress3.unipress.yale.edu Wed Oct 24 12:41:04 2001 From: DAW at yalepress3.unipress.yale.edu (David Woyciesjes) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:58 2005 Subject: MacOS DHCP Server? Message-ID: <9011A52E011ED311B4280004AC1BA615014671B5@yalepress3.unipress.yale.edu> Does anyone know if there is a free/share/money-ware program that can turn a Mac into a DHCP server? For use on an older 68k Mac... --- David A Woyciesjes --- C & IS Support Specialist --- Yale University Press --- mailto:david.woyciesjes@yale.edu --- (203) 432-0953 --- ICQ # - 905818 From foo at siconic.com Wed Oct 24 13:00:18 2001 From: foo at siconic.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:58 2005 Subject: Um, SOL50 fell in my lap In-Reply-To: <000001c15c82$7c50f9b0$0201a8c0@bob> Message-ID: On Wed, 24 Oct 2001, Bob Stek wrote: > Do you mean a SOL-20 by Processor Technology? Also, Morrow Designs > (Thinkertoys) made 8" SS DD and DS DD floppy drives - 512k to 1024k. > > Or are you referring to something completely different? I'm still awaiting the reply on the message I sent asking what a SOL50 is myself. Maybe he meant SOL-20, as I am pretty certain there was never a SOL-50, and I know of no other computer that used that designation. Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org From foo at siconic.com Wed Oct 24 13:04:55 2001 From: foo at siconic.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:58 2005 Subject: value of classic DEC machines? In-Reply-To: <002101c15c94$7af0c840$8a0101ac@ibm23xhr06> Message-ID: On Wed, 24 Oct 2001, John Allain wrote: > >> Now a PDP-1 would certainly be worth 100KUS$, > > >..to a collector who had US$100K to throw away and > > absolutely HAS to have the first PDP-1... > > Worth, Costs, Is Valued at... all highly relativistic concepts > don't you think? I take exception to Heinz' proclamation that it is "certainly" worth that much. I disagree with his value. Yes, this pricing is all relative and subjective. > What about history? My book says that only 50 PDP-1's were produced. > Almost certainly 50%++ were scrapped. Anybody know where all the > PDP-1's are? I'd like to see one (or more). Maybe Heinz wants to pay US$100K for a PDP-1, but I don't think the rarity and demand for this system justifies such a value. > BTW, on thread. A good clean runnung PDP-11 with SW and docs can > fetch over $4K, to the original question. Sounds reasonable to me, but it also depends highly on the particular model. Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org From foo at siconic.com Wed Oct 24 13:08:58 2001 From: foo at siconic.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:58 2005 Subject: Reading non-PC format floppies In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Wed, 24 Oct 2001, Mark Tapley wrote: > Sellam: > I humbly suggest that more exact forms of expression, at least in > international public forums, might avert misunderstandings. I would hope that everyone here knows and understands that I have the utmost respect for Tony's skills. It's just his self-deprecation that sometimes irks me :) Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org From cmcmanis at mcmanis.com Wed Oct 24 13:35:37 2001 From: cmcmanis at mcmanis.com (Chuck McManis) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:58 2005 Subject: SPAM Avoidance Re: List Maintenance In-Reply-To: <20011024103814.A6668@mordor.angband.thangorodrim.de> References: <5.0.0.25.2.20011023203855.01b1ae50@209.185.79.193> <10110231829.ZM19029@mindy.dunnington.u-net.com> <5.0.0.25.2.20011023203855.01b1ae50@209.185.79.193> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20011024113459.027fd540@mcmanis.com> At 01:38 AM 10/24/01, Alex wrote: >Please don't do that - trying to escape SPAM is not an excuse to >violate well established standards. Please have a look at RFC 2142. I don't think it violates that RFC, I am after all the contact person if someone has a problem with my domain... --Chuck From emu at ecubics.com Wed Oct 24 13:50:52 2001 From: emu at ecubics.com (emanuel stiebler) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:58 2005 Subject: MacOS DHCP Server? References: <9011A52E011ED311B4280004AC1BA615014671B5@yalepress3.unipress.yale.edu> Message-ID: <3BD70D8C.87D4B9D7@ecubics.com> David Woyciesjes wrote: > > Does anyone know if there is a free/share/money-ware program that > can turn a Mac into a DHCP server? For use on an older 68k Mac... > netbsd ? From cmcmanis at mcmanis.com Wed Oct 24 13:49:40 2001 From: cmcmanis at mcmanis.com (Chuck McManis) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:58 2005 Subject: Ken Slusser In-Reply-To: <20011024093214.O29706@mrbill.net> References: <200110240049.RAA03408@spies.com> <200110240049.RAA03408@spies.com> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20011024113852.028069c0@mcmanis.com> At 07:32 AM 10/24/01, Bill responded: >On Tue, Oct 23, 2001 at 05:49:58PM -0700, Al Kossow wrote: > > I talked to Ken this afternoon. > > He needs 3-4K to cover the back rent on the storage > > and is looking for someone to take all this stuff and > > sell it on eBay for him. He thinks it's worth $100000 > >If I'd known that, I wouldnt have even forwarded the message. >sigh. This is NOT 1984, its not worth 100K. When I hear this sentence, "... old computer stuff worth $x, help me sell it on ebay." All sorts of bells go off. If it really is "worth" $100K US, and he only owe 3-4K in back rent, then selling it $10K/week on Ebay would not only pay off his rent but be a good living for the next two or three months. However, as most people who haunt Ebay are aware, it has done its job of finding both the sellers and buyers and the market forces have significantly dropped the price of things you can buy. It used to be a MicroVAX 3100 could get you $50 - $100, now they regularly go unbid at $9.99. A VAX 4000/400 that would have brought $500 - $1000 a year ago sat unbid at $300. The only thing to have held its value are Qbus/Unibus SCSI controllers. So when I read messages like the one Bill originally forwarded, the natural cynic in me suspects a person who wants someone else to invest all the sweat and pain for selling a bunch of stuff on Ebay and getting a cut of the profits. My practical side, wonders why he just wouldn't sell them to another dealer that had space/time/willingness to stock them or whatever. --Chuck From cmcmanis at mcmanis.com Wed Oct 24 13:52:59 2001 From: cmcmanis at mcmanis.com (Chuck McManis) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:58 2005 Subject: first step getting VAX 6000-400 booted ... In-Reply-To: <3BD6E4B8.8683EDFA@aurora.regenstrief.org> References: <3BD5B07D.5702C1BA@aurora.regenstrief.org> <002501c15c2e$2a1b2e80$de2c67cb@helpdesk> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20011024115200.02807c00@mcmanis.com> At 08:56 AM 10/24/01, Gunther Schadow wrote: >I don't have the console dump on that, but the only error message >I recollect was: > >?3 Device I/O Error (or something very similar.) > >Would that be the appropriate response on an RA90 drive with >wiped-out media? My drive completed all tests, including the >spun-down and the spun-up tests (the latter includes disk >access tests.) Generally on MicroVAXen there is an error about NO SUCH FILE. Did you hear the disk seek when you tried it? --Chuck From dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com Wed Oct 24 14:00:58 2001 From: dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com (Douglas Quebbeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:58 2005 Subject: MacOS DHCP Server? Message-ID: <7A9BACCEF0171D4FB77019F5104CDD3722582C@jeffserver.tegjeff.com> David A Woyciesjes was found to ask thusly: > > Does anyone know if there is a free/share/money-ware program that > can turn a Mac into a DHCP server? For use on an older 68k Mac... Yeah, sort-of, if you can find it. Vicom Technologies (www.vicomtech.com) has a product that's undergone a few name changes and feature orgies. Originally named "Vicom Internet Gateway", then "Vicom Soft Router", and maybe back to the original name... it's a software-based NAT router. It includes a built-in DHCP server. It wasn't expensive... it came bundled with Applshare IP 5.0, and when we finally purchased a cross-platform upgrade, that was either US$29 or US$79. At one time, you could download trial versions of the package. Additionally, if you hunt around, you'll find the magix needed to make the evaluation period last a very, very long time. ;-) hth, -doug q From zmerch at 30below.com Wed Oct 24 14:08:27 2001 From: zmerch at 30below.com (Roger Merchberger) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:58 2005 Subject: Ken Slusser In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20011024113852.028069c0@mcmanis.com> References: <20011024093214.O29706@mrbill.net> <200110240049.RAA03408@spies.com> <200110240049.RAA03408@spies.com> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20011024150646.027c0b08@mail.30below.com> Rumor has it that Chuck McManis may have mentioned these words: >At 07:32 AM 10/24/01, Bill responded: >>On Tue, Oct 23, 2001 at 05:49:58PM -0700, Al Kossow wrote: >> > I talked to Ken this afternoon. >> > He needs 3-4K to cover the back rent on the storage >> > and is looking for someone to take all this stuff and >> > sell it on eBay for him. He thinks it's worth $100000 >> >>If I'd known that, I wouldnt have even forwarded the message. >>sigh. This is NOT 1984, its not worth 100K. > >When I hear this sentence, "... old computer stuff >worth $x, help me sell it on ebay." All sorts of bells >go off. If it really is "worth" $100K US, and he only >owe 3-4K in back rent, then selling it $10K/week on Ebay >would not only pay off his rent but be a good living >for the next two or three months. Where do you live, Chuck? those rates would get me good living for the next couple of *years*! "Merch" From korpela at ssl.berkeley.edu Wed Oct 24 14:10:42 2001 From: korpela at ssl.berkeley.edu (Eric J. Korpela) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:58 2005 Subject: MacOS DHCP Server? In-Reply-To: <9011A52E011ED311B4280004AC1BA615014671B5@yalepress3.unipress.yale.edu> from David Woyciesjes at "Oct 24, 2001 01:41:04 pm" Message-ID: <200110241910.MAA29988@ellie.ssl.berkeley.edu> IPNetRouter may have that capability. Can't guarantee it, though. Eric [Charset iso-8859-1 unsupported, filtering to ASCII...] > Does anyone know if there is a free/share/money-ware program that > can turn a Mac into a DHCP server? For use on an older 68k Mac... > > --- David A Woyciesjes > --- C & IS Support Specialist > --- Yale University Press > --- mailto:david.woyciesjes@yale.edu > --- (203) 432-0953 > --- ICQ # - 905818 From vze2wsvr at verizon.net Wed Oct 24 14:19:15 2001 From: vze2wsvr at verizon.net (Eric Chomko) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:58 2005 Subject: new finds References: <00c801c15ca9$b7ed5fa0$8201a8c0@onsiteaccess.net> Message-ID: <3BD71432.FF389DE3@verizon.net> I got a MKE6802DS single board computer off eBay awhile back. It belonged to THE Don Lancaster. Anyone have any info on the SBC? And today I got a Silent 700 suitcase terminal that is in excellent condition. Can't wait to test it out. Eric From cmcmanis at mcmanis.com Wed Oct 24 14:43:38 2001 From: cmcmanis at mcmanis.com (Chuck McManis) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:58 2005 Subject: Value (was Re: Ken Slusser In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20011024150646.027c0b08@mail.30below.com> References: <5.1.0.14.0.20011024113852.028069c0@mcmanis.com> <20011024093214.O29706@mrbill.net> <200110240049.RAA03408@spies.com> <200110240049.RAA03408@spies.com> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20011024122915.0282e2b0@mcmanis.com> At 12:08 PM 10/24/01, "Merch" wrote: > Where do you live, Chuck? those rates would get me good living > for the next couple of *years*! Sunnyvale California, the heart of Silicon Valley, where a 3 bedroom house that's about 72" from the neighbors house, has 1500 square feet, no yard, and "needs work", was sold in 2000 for $650,000. (yes, it got that bad, yes there is much, much pain around here these days) And in case it wasn't obvious, in my message I was being a bit facetious in that $10K/week would be a great wage (even after taking $1K - $2K out for expenses). So why doesn't this guy want to live that life? Or perhaps the inventory really can't be sold for $100K, perhaps it can only be sold quickly for $10K (making your wages about $150/week after expenses) Its the thing that bothers me about the discussions of "worth" on this list and elsewhere, the time component. Sure if you have the one part someone needs to survive when they need it, it is "worth" a ton of money to them. If on the other hand nobody needs or wants the part you have then its "worth" is $0.03/lb as scrap. Note: I don't know Ken and in no way am I impugning his reputation so while this came up in the context of what he has to offer, it isn't directed at him! I have experience that it is not uncommon for someone to use the "time critical" value of something's worth vs its actual current worth, in order to inflate the value of a transaction. Stock brokers do this when suggesting that a stock "will be worth $X" and so "$Y is a reasonable investment." As I try to keep my hobby "income impact neutral" for some reasonable window, the value proposition of this stuff is an area that I am quite interested in. --Chuck From mythtech at Mac.com Wed Oct 24 14:44:36 2001 From: mythtech at Mac.com (Chris) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:58 2005 Subject: MacOS DHCP Server? Message-ID: >Yeah, sort-of, if you can find it. > >Vicom Technologies (www.vicomtech.com) has a product that's >undergone a few name changes and feature orgies. Originally >named "Vicom Internet Gateway", then "Vicom Soft Router", and >maybe back to the original name... it's a software-based NAT >router. It includes a built-in DHCP server. > >It wasn't expensive... it came bundled with Applshare IP 5.0, >and when we finally purchased a cross-platform upgrade, that >was either US$29 or US$79. > >At one time, you could download trial versions of the package. >Additionally, if you hunt around, you'll find the magix needed >to make the evaluation period last a very, very long time. ;-) Although, lots of people use and love Vicom's SoftRouter (I think that is the name it is going by now)... I would like to point out that last I knew, it uses its own TCP/IP stack, and not Apple's OpenTransport. The Vicom stack has been known to provide incompatibility with some software that wants to use OpenTransport. I have also heard that Vicom's is more unstable in general (but I guess that might be dependant on what version of OpenTransport you compare it to, as early versions of OT were very unstable in their own right). This might have changed by now, but I would confirm it before buying. And then just to give a plug to Sustainable Softworks... their IPNetRouter product does everything Vicom's does (and more I believe), and is priced pretty much the same ($49 for 68k only, $79 for PPC and 68k). I don't have any connection with Sustainable Softworks, I am just a VERY VERY satisfied customer (I put them as the #1 best company I have ever had to deal with). -chris From gunther at aurora.regenstrief.org Wed Oct 24 15:11:12 2001 From: gunther at aurora.regenstrief.org (Gunther Schadow) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:58 2005 Subject: first step getting VAX 6000-400 booted ... References: <3BD5B07D.5702C1BA@aurora.regenstrief.org> <002501c15c2e$2a1b2e80$de2c67cb@helpdesk> <5.1.0.14.0.20011024115200.02807c00@mcmanis.com> Message-ID: <3BD72060.C35FC4DA@aurora.regenstrief.org> Chuck McManis wrote: > > At 08:56 AM 10/24/01, Gunther Schadow wrote: > >I don't have the console dump on that, but the only error message > >I recollect was: > > > >?3 Device I/O Error (or something very similar.) > > > >Would that be the appropriate response on an RA90 drive with > >wiped-out media? My drive completed all tests, including the > >spun-down and the spun-up tests (the latter includes disk > >access tests.) > > Generally on MicroVAXen there is an error about NO SUCH FILE. Did you hear > the disk seek when you tried it? Among all the fanning and blowing and spinning, the disk seek can be pretty faint. No, I did not hear the disk seeking and it all went suspiciously quick. I may not have proper connection between KDB50 and disk. The disk shows both ports A and B enabled, and I'm connected only to A. Is there any ordering of the 4 ports on the KDB50 bulkhead that I need to know to get it right? -Gunther -- Gunther_Schadow-------------------------------http://aurora.rg.iupui.edu Regenstrief Institute for Health Care 1050 Wishard Blvd., Indianapolis IN 46202, Phone: (317) 630 7960 schadow@aurora.rg.iupui.edu------------------#include From pjschilling at gcstech.net Wed Oct 24 15:20:55 2001 From: pjschilling at gcstech.net (Phil Schilling) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:58 2005 Subject: first step getting VAX 6000-400 booted ... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Gunther, Appreciate the info, get my end done and hope the electricians aren't too far off for moving the 220's to where I need them. Thanks again. Phil -----Original Message----- From: owner-classiccmp@classiccmp.org [mailto:owner-classiccmp@classiccmp.org]On Behalf Of Gunther Schadow Sent: Wednesday, October 24, 2001 11:37 AM To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org Subject: Re: first step getting VAX 6000-400 booted ... Phil, I did convert to 220 single. I made my own reference along the way. Here goes: http://aurora.rg.iupui.edu/~schadow/VAX/power.txt regards, -Gunther Phil Schilling wrote: > > Gunther, > Slightly off your topic, but did you convert the power to 220 single phase > on your 6000? If so exactly which reference did you follow. I need to set > up both my 6000 and the drive array for single phase so I can get them fired > up. Thanks > > Phil Schilling > GCS Tech > > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-classiccmp@classiccmp.org > [mailto:owner-classiccmp@classiccmp.org]On Behalf Of Gunther Schadow > Sent: Tuesday, October 23, 2001 1:02 PM > To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org; port-vax@netbsd.org > Subject: first step getting VAX 6000-400 booted ... > > Hi, > > after my pretty good VAX treck last weekend (more details coming > up on my project web site at a later time) I finally have SDI disks. > I hooked one up last night and did all the checking as per the > RA9x manual (yes I have one plus many more, will scan those at > some time...) and it seems to be O.K. (even though it was pretty > messed up stored in a barn among lots of birds for many years). > > Here is one para about where I am at and then I have some > specific questions for Geoff Roberts or Ragge or anyone who > has had experienced any luck with getting a 6000 up to operation. > > I have bootable tape for Ultrix 4.1 and VMS 5.3 both TK50. None > of them work. I seem to have no luck with the TK70 and I have > no way finding out what's wrong. I tried to boot from that RA90 > disk, even though I don't know what's on it. It has unit #0, so > I thought it might be a system disk. But that too failed with > some I/O error very early in the process. I also have a TU81+ and > VMS bootable tape on 9-track, maybe that's more reliable? Tonight's > project is to move the TU81+ into the basement and hook it up. > I'm afraid I'll get stuck there too and what then? Network > booting? > > Here's some more detail and questions: > > The TK50 boot proceeds for quite a while, although it never shows > any message on the console about where it is at before it halts > due to some unspecified error. However, about one or two minutes > into the tape running the system-panel's FAULT light comes on and > at the same time both yellow and green LEDs on the TKB70 board > extinguish. That's for about a second or two. Then the lights > go back to normal and the fault light turned off. Another 30 > seconds to a minute tape streaming and the same light-spiel happens > again: fault on, TKB70 LEDs off, and back to normal. Now a shorter > time (like 10 seconds) of tape streaming and again. From now on that > repeats for about 4 or 5 more cycles and finally the system is > halted and console says: system halted due to previous error. > However, no error message is being printed. I have no idea where > I am in the process. > > I have tried cleaning the TK70 read/write head of course. I have > tried a different copy of that Ultrix tape. It's always the same. > > Is this bliking of fault and shutting off of both TBK70 LEDs > normal for media read errors or does it indicate something more > serious? How can I tell where in the process I am? Is there an > error flag somewhere in memory that I could EXAMINE to find out > what is wrong? > > BTW: at first I had my CIBCA cards in and the boot process would > halt earlier: system would say "insufficient memory for CI" and > "10% or more of the memory is bad". Who is checking memory there? > I could not find anything in Ultrix 4.2 sources that would generate > such a message. And why would it anyway, because my system check > tells me that I have 512 MB of memory OK. Or does it speak of > 10% of the CIBCA's internal memory? > > Is there a boot flag that I could turn on that would cause the > loader etc. to be more verbose? > > Has anyone tried booting Ultrix over the network? I am going to > try that but all I have is Ultrix on TK50 (that doesn't work) > and sources without any VAX running to compile them on. Is there > a cross compiler suite? I'd like to compile with the DEBUG > flag set. > > Thanks for your suggestions, > -Gunther > > -- > Gunther_Schadow-------------------------------http://aurora.rg.iupui.edu > Regenstrief Institute for Health Care > 1050 Wishard Blvd., Indianapolis IN 46202, Phone: (317) 630 7960 > schadow@aurora.rg.iupui.edu------------------#include -- Gunther_Schadow-------------------------------http://aurora.rg.iupui.edu Regenstrief Institute for Health Care 1050 Wishard Blvd., Indianapolis IN 46202, Phone: (317) 630 7960 schadow@aurora.rg.iupui.edu------------------#include From mikeford at socal.rr.com Wed Oct 24 14:00:40 2001 From: mikeford at socal.rr.com (Mike Ford) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:58 2005 Subject: MacOS DHCP Server? In-Reply-To: <9011A52E011ED311B4280004AC1BA615014671B5@yalepress3.unipress.yale.edu> Message-ID: > Does anyone know if there is a free/share/money-ware program that >can turn a Mac into a DHCP server? For use on an older 68k Mac... I use a Mac IIci, up and running 24/7 14 months. What you need is called a router, but any old PC or Mac running a unix variant with a couple network cards should work fine too. I use a Mac IIci running NetBSD. Check out this web site for details, and email me if you need some network cards etc. cheap. http://users.erols.com/ewinkler/ From optimus at canit.se Wed Oct 24 10:54:33 2001 From: optimus at canit.se (Iggy Drougge) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:58 2005 Subject: Reading non-PC format floppies In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <925.697T1650T10145407optimus@canit.se> Sellam Ismail skrev: >On 23 Oct 2001, Iggy Drougge wrote: >> Go to hell, Ismail. There is a name for your disease, and it?s called >> rudeness. Why do you feel such an urge to insult everyone and >> everything on this list? >Hahahaha. That's funny. You're being facetious right? I mean, you're >the one that is always telling people to go to hell and all. Unlike you, that's not unprovokedly. You seem to insult people whenever it fancies you, whether it's needed or not. If this were a classroom, you'd be the one in the special class, after having been removed from the back row. You're just being disruptive. Even your arch-nemesis, that one with the germanesque name, is more contributive than you. >Time for your medication. Go to hell, Ismail. -- En ligne avec Thor 2.6a. / __ __ /\ __ __ __ __ _ / /_/ /_/ /_/ . /_/ / /_/ /_/ /_/ /_/ /-' __/ __/ __/ __/ __/ ?? From jhellige at earthlink.net Wed Oct 24 15:33:56 2001 From: jhellige at earthlink.net (Jeff Hellige) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:58 2005 Subject: MacOS DHCP Server? In-Reply-To: <7A9BACCEF0171D4FB77019F5104CDD3722582C@jeffserver.tegjeff.com> References: <7A9BACCEF0171D4FB77019F5104CDD3722582C@jeffserver.tegjeff.com> Message-ID: >Vicom Technologies (www.vicomtech.com) has a product that's >undergone a few name changes and feature orgies. Originally >named "Vicom Internet Gateway", then "Vicom Soft Router", and >maybe back to the original name... it's a software-based NAT >router. It includes a built-in DHCP server. Vicomsoft made a package called 'Surfdoubler' which included DHCP and which requires at least a 68040 Mac and System 7.5.3. Sustainable Softworks makes a product called 'IPNetRouter' and which will work on on any Mac with System 7.5.3 and OT 1.1.1. It doesn't list a PPC processor as a requirement. It also includes DHCP and other stuff. I should have the trail versions of both here. Jeff -- Home of the TRS-80 Model 2000 FAQ File http://www.cchaven.com http://www.geocities.com/siliconvalley/lakes/6757 From h.wolter at sympatico.ca Wed Oct 24 15:38:32 2001 From: h.wolter at sympatico.ca (Heinz Wolter) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:58 2005 Subject: value of classic DEC machines? References: Message-ID: <02f201c15ccb$d9053c40$3a92a8c0@MAGGIE> > ...to a collector who had US$100K to throw away and absolutely HAS to have > the first PDP-1 he comes across or else he'll die, no exceptions. > > I can't think of any such collector that exists. Think again! The fellow that sold me my KL sold one to Paul Allen's organization for 30k$. Certainly he has more pocketchange in one of his pockets, than we make in a year... Perhaps you haven't heard of his computer museum - he's playing Noah - but trying to get at least one of every DEC machine made.. (he has two KLs, to my knowledge, one was free) > > > There are collectors out there like Mr. Allen paying big dollars for > > not so rare machines... > > The particular frenzy you are referring to bombed out with the stock > market. Actually not. I know some suppliers that regularly supply 3K$+ PDP8 machines to dotcom windfall recipients - 3k$ is not that much for a pristine machine with a panel and lights and can actually do something. Perhaps the market hurt Allen a bit, but certainly not to worry about dropping a mere 100k$, especially through an NPO where is would be taxless. I doubt a typical home collector would spend that amount. > I think you misread the message, but I just wanted to dispel the myths you > forwarded :) No, I just wanted to add to the sillyness of a 2500$ Coco- want to buy mine ;) One mans facts are another man's myths... Regards, heinz From dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com Wed Oct 24 15:52:17 2001 From: dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com (Douglas Quebbeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:58 2005 Subject: MacOS DHCP Server? Message-ID: <7A9BACCEF0171D4FB77019F5104CDD3722582D@jeffserver.tegjeff.com> > >At one time, you could download trial versions of the package. > >Additionally, if you hunt around, you'll find the magix needed > >to make the evaluation period last a very, very long time. ;-) > > Although, lots of people use and love Vicom's SoftRouter (I think that is > the name it is going by now)... I would like to point out that last I > knew, it uses its own TCP/IP stack, and not Apple's OpenTransport. The > Vicom stack has been known to provide incompatibility with some software > that wants to use OpenTransport. I have also heard that Vicom's is more > unstable in general (but I guess that might be dependant on what version > of OpenTransport you compare it to, as early versions of OT were very > unstable in their own right). This might have changed by now, but I would > confirm it before buying. Yes, it does use it's own TCP/IP stack, but one which co-exists peacefully with Open Transport... it's not like you've got to drop back down to Classic Networking... We never had any stability problems. However, it does not pass GRE(47) packets, so you can't form a VPN connection through one. > And then just to give a plug to Sustainable Softworks... their > IPNetRouter product does everything Vicom's does (and more I believe), > and is priced pretty much the same ($49 for 68k only, $79 for PPC and > 68k). I don't have any connection with Sustainable Softworks, I am just a > VERY VERY satisfied customer (I put them as the #1 best company I have > ever had to deal with). Nice price, Chris; I'd say, David, go with it! -dq From Antonio.Carlini at riverstonenet.com Wed Oct 24 16:16:00 2001 From: Antonio.Carlini at riverstonenet.com (Carlini, Antonio) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:58 2005 Subject: first step getting VAX 6000-400 booted ... Message-ID: <3820E2042B6ED5118DC200D0B78EDC470661C7@exc-reo1> >Among all the fanning and blowing and spinning, the disk >seek can be pretty faint. No, I did not hear the disk >seeking and it all went suspiciously quick. I may My recollection of RA9x drives is that when you transition them to RUN (either by hitting the button or as a result of host action) they is a clear "thunk". >not have proper connection between KDB50 and disk. The >disk shows both ports A and B enabled, and I'm connected >only to A. Is there any ordering of the 4 ports on the >KDB50 bulkhead that I need to know to get it right? The order of the 4 KDB50 connections is essentially meaningless. It certainly does not determine device naming or whatever. The A/B port stuff also matters very little. If your KDB50 is connected to port A, then port A needs to be enabled and B is irrelevant. Or vice versa. Antonio From h.wolter at sympatico.ca Wed Oct 24 16:16:31 2001 From: h.wolter at sympatico.ca (Heinz Wolter) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:58 2005 Subject: value of classic DEC machines? References: Message-ID: <030e01c15cd1$276475e0$3a92a8c0@MAGGIE> Sellam Ismail wrote: > I take exception to Heinz' proclamation that it is "certainly" worth that > much. I disagree with his value. Yes, this pricing is all relative and > subjective. It wasn't exactly a proclamation; just an opinion based on 20 years of collecting DEC, and seeing and knowing what the prices are. I agree it's truly relative. Check out Ebay for some steals and rip-offs. It is, and always has been a matter of whatever the market will bear. > Maybe Heinz wants to pay US$100K for a PDP-1, but I don't think the rarity > and demand for this system justifies such a value. I never said I'd pay that. But someone would... If I was so rich as not to notice 100k$, I'd have people scouting machines for me, as Mr. Allen does. If I was planning to open a computer museum and had every (close to) other machine DEC ever made - wouldn't I make that extra effort for the PDP-1? We're talking obsessed here - most collectors aren't exactly ~normal~ ;) If you have such a machine to sell, the trick is to find someone crazier than you... > > BTW, on thread. A good clean runnung PDP-11 with SW and docs can > > fetch over $4K, to the original question. > > Sounds reasonable to me, but it also depends highly on the particular > model. I'd pay 4k$ for a pristine 11/45 with tape & disks running Unix v6, but you couldn't probably give away an 11/70 ? Why? Some machines are just more lovable than others ;) The '45 was the first non IBM machine I used, so it holds some sentimental value. Many people spending thousands on 30+ year old metal probably do it because it brings back fond memories- for them - and maybe for no one else. It's a very personal thing. For many, it's the idea of having a real machine with lights and switches and noisy fans that couldn't possibly ever run anything made by Microsoft ;) Would it surpise you to know of customers' standing orders for PDP10 KA/KI machines in the $US140 range? Is that too much for unobtanium? I wouldn't be keen n such a machine, unless I already had a KS, a KL etc. Offhand, what do people think a working KS10 would go for? 10K$? Putting a value on old machines is of course a pointless task. Most of us would never sell our beloved machines, and most of them have negative value to pretty well any normal individual. It's sad that some rich collectors buy up anything classic, and drive the prices up. But that's life. If I just paid 4k$ for a machine that will make me happy, should I be upset to hear that someone else picked one up for free? It doesn't make the free machine worth 4k$ (maybe to someone), but it also doesn't make the 4k$ machine worthless. We should not be upset to see people put prices on these machines; though it might make some reluctant to give them away for free... Heinz From vance at ikickass.org Wed Oct 24 17:03:19 2001 From: vance at ikickass.org (One Without Reason) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:58 2005 Subject: Ken Slusser In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20011024150646.027c0b08@mail.30below.com> Message-ID: On Wed, 24 Oct 2001, Roger Merchberger wrote: > Where do you live, Chuck? those rates would get me good living for the next > couple of *years*! I guess it depends on what you consider a good living. Peace... Sridhar From vance at ikickass.org Wed Oct 24 17:04:10 2001 From: vance at ikickass.org (One Without Reason) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:58 2005 Subject: John Boffemmyer's SOL Message-ID: It's a SOL-20. I just checked. (His SOL is in my storage locker.) Peace... Sridhar From vance at ikickass.org Wed Oct 24 17:07:33 2001 From: vance at ikickass.org (One Without Reason) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:58 2005 Subject: MacOS DHCP Server? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: A router isn't necessarily a DHCP server. Peace... Sridhar On Wed, 24 Oct 2001, Mike Ford wrote: > > Does anyone know if there is a free/share/money-ware program that > >can turn a Mac into a DHCP server? For use on an older 68k Mac... > > I use a Mac IIci, up and running 24/7 14 months. > > What you need is called a router, but any old PC or Mac running a unix > variant with a couple network cards should work fine too. I use a Mac IIci > running NetBSD. Check out this web site for details, and email me if you > need some network cards etc. cheap. > > http://users.erols.com/ewinkler/ > > From jrasite at eoni.com Wed Oct 24 17:23:25 2001 From: jrasite at eoni.com (Jim Arnott) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:58 2005 Subject: MacOS DHCP Server? References: <7A9BACCEF0171D4FB77019F5104CDD3722582D@jeffserver.tegjeff.com> Message-ID: <3BD73F5C.436AEFBC@eoni.com> I have to agree. IPNetRouter is *the* software router for a Mac. I tried both SurfDoubler and IPNR. Final answer? IPNR. Much more robust product that SD. Jim From korpela at ssl.berkeley.edu Wed Oct 24 17:31:12 2001 From: korpela at ssl.berkeley.edu (Eric J. Korpela) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:58 2005 Subject: MacOS DHCP Server? In-Reply-To: from Mike Ford at "Oct 24, 2001 12:00:40 pm" Message-ID: <200110242231.PAA03797@ellie.ssl.berkeley.edu> > > Does anyone know if there is a free/share/money-ware program that > >can turn a Mac into a DHCP server? For use on an older 68k Mac... > > I use a Mac IIci, up and running 24/7 14 months. > > What you need is called a router, but any old PC or Mac running a unix > variant with a couple network cards should work fine too. The main reason to use a Mac as a router is to provide an IP over localtalk to IP over ethernet gateway. It's easier to find an ethernet card for a Mac II than a localtalk card for a PC. > I use a Mac IIci > running NetBSD. Check out this web site for details, and email me if you > need some network cards etc. cheap. Does NetBSD support IP over localtalk? If so, I may switch over. Eric From vze2wsvr at verizon.net Wed Oct 24 17:34:25 2001 From: vze2wsvr at verizon.net (Eric Chomko) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:59 2005 Subject: electronics/computer surplus in Virginia? References: <3BD3069F.25785.1153F10@localhost> <3BD60345.D4A173F2@mail.verizon.net> Message-ID: <3BD741F1.8F178EC7@mail.verizon.net> Share info... Thanks, Eric Eric Chomko wrote: > Brian Knittel wrote: > > > Does anyone know of any electronics / computer surplus > > and/or computer / electronics recycling companies > > in the greater Portsmouth - Norfolk - Virginia Beach - > > Suffolk - Chesapeake, Virginia area? > > > > Check out Langley Research Center (LaRC). It's a NASA facility. Do share > anything you find, please. > > Eric > > > > > Thanks, > > Brian > > > > =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- > > _| _| _| Brian Knittel / Quarterbyte Systems, Inc. > > _| _| _| Tel: 1-510-559-7930 Fax: 1-510-525-6889 > > _| _| _| Email: brian@quarterbyte.com > > _| _| _| http://www.quarterbyte.com From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Wed Oct 24 17:57:30 2001 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (ajp166) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:59 2005 Subject: first step getting VAX 6000-400 booted ... Message-ID: <00b001c15ce0$326ba670$a1ef9a8d@ajp166> OK, the default boot device (a SET option) is either dead or not found. Allison -----Original Message----- From: Gunther Schadow To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org Date: Wednesday, October 24, 2001 12:19 PM Subject: Re: first step getting VAX 6000-400 booted ... >Geoff Roberts wrote: > >> Hmm, Unit 0 has an excellent chance of being a system disk, but possible it >> was >> initialised prior to being retired. What's the exact error msg (console dump >> is good) > >I don't have the console dump on that, but the only error message >I recollect was: > >?3 Device I/O Error (or something very similar.) > >Would that be the appropriate response on an RA90 drive with >wiped-out media? My drive completed all tests, including the >spun-down and the spun-up tests (the latter includes disk >access tests.) > >> Tapes are probably sus. TK70's are the least reliable component of a 6000, >> but are still pretty reliable compared to the TK50. > >yack! > >> > I also have a TU81+ and VMS bootable tape on 9-track, maybe that's more >> reliable? >> >> Very likely, do you have the companion card for the TU81+ (KLESI-B) to go in >> the Vax? >> They TU81+ is not SDI, so it won't even plug in to the KDB50. If all else >> fails I can probably whip >> up a tape for you on ours. > >Instructions on how to write an Ultrix tape from VMS would >be cool. I'm sure I can get VMS up. What is the least >amount of knowledge that I need to get a VMS system up >in single user mode and try a couple of SDI accesses, >try reading a TK and writing to a TU? > > >> Not very familiar with Ultrix though I gather it's also possible to mop boot >> an ultrix box from a vms one, though I don't think it will do vice versa. > >It definitely is as the source code says. I'll use my FreeBSD >laptop as the boot host. Monitoring with tcpdump is a good way >of debugging network booting. > >Attached below you'll find annotated console dumps from my >yesterday's attempts (thanks to xterm :-) > >My comments are lines starting with "GS>" > >GS> I have swapped in another TK70 drive (one that may be less worn) >GS> and now I turn on the machine: > >#123456789 0123456789 0123456789 01234567# > >F E D C B A 9 8 7 6 5 4 3 2 1 0 NODE # > A A . A M M M M P P P P P P >TYP > o o . + + + + + + + + + + + >STF > . . . . . . . . E E E E E B >BPD > . . . . . . . . + + + + + + >ETF > . . . . . . . . E E E E E B >BPD > > >. . . . . . . . . + . . + + + . XBI D >+ >. . . . . . . . . + + . + . + . XBI E >+ > > . . . . A4 A3 A2 A1 . . . . . . >ILV > . . . . 128 128 128 128 . . . . . . 512 >Mb > >ROM0 = V4.00 ROM1 = V4.00 EEPROM = 2.03/4.02 SN = AG94408887 > > >>>> SHOW ALL > Type Rev > 1+ KA64A (8082) 000D > 2+ KA64A (8082) 000D > 3+ KA64A (8082) 000D > 4+ KA64A (8082) 000D > 5+ KA64A (8082) 000D > 6+ KA64A (8082) 000D > 7+ MS65A (4001) 0084 > 8+ MS65A (4001) 0084 > 9+ MS65A (4001) 0084 > A+ MS65A (4001) 0084 > B+ KDM70 (0C22) 2811 > D+ DWMBA/A (2001) 0002 > E+ DWMBA/A (2001) 0002 > > XBI D > 1+ DWMBA/B (2107) 000A > 2+ KLESI-B (0103) 0006 > 3+ KDB50 (010E) 142C > 6+ DEBNI (0118) 0400 > > XBI E > 1+ DWMBA/B (2107) 000A > 3+ DMB32 (0109) 0004 > 5+ CIBCA-B (0108) 41C2 > 6+ TBK70 (410B) 0307 > Current Primary: 1 > /NOENABLED- > /NOVECTOR_ENABLED- > /NOPRIMARY- >F E D C B A 9 8 7 6 5 4 3 2 1 0 NODE # > . . . . A4 A3 A2 A1 . . . . . . >ILV > . . . . 128 128 128 128 . . . . . . 512 >Mb > /INTERLEAVE:DEFAULT > /SCOPE /SPEED: 9600 /BREAK > English > XMI:D BI:6 08-00-2B-34-A5-CA > DEFAULT /XMI:E /BI:6 CSA1 > TAPE /XMI:E /BI:6 CSA1 > ETH0 /XMI:D /BI:6 ET0 >SHOW DSSI is not yet implemented > >GS> Now I have loaded the VMS 6.1 stand alone backup TK70 and go: > >>>> BOOT /XMI:E /BI:6 CSA1 >Initializing system. > >#123456789 0123456789 0123456789 01234567# > >F E D C B A 9 8 7 6 5 4 3 2 1 0 NODE # > A A . A M M M M P P P P P P >TYP > o o . + + + + + + + + + + + >STF > . . . . . . . . E E E E E B >BPD > . . . . . . . . + + + + + + >ETF > . . . . . . . . E E E E E B >BPD > > >. . . . . . . . . + . . + + + . XBI D >+ >. . . . . . . . . + + . + . + . XBI E >+ > > . . . . A4 A3 A2 A1 . . . . . . >ILV > . . . . 128 128 128 128 . . . . . . 512 >Mb > >ROM0 = V4.00 ROM1 = V4.00 EEPROM = 2.03/4.02 SN = AG94408887 > > >Loading system software. > > OpenVMS VAX Version V6.1 Major version id = 1 Minor version id = >0c >PLEASE ENTER DATE AND TIME (DD-MMM-YYYY HH:MM) 23-OCT-2001 > >Configuring devices . . . > >%PAA0, Port Error Bit(s) Set - CNF/PMC/PSR 00000000/00000020/00008280 > >%PAA0, Port is Reinitializing ( 49 Retries Left). Check the Error Log. > >GS> oops, what is %PAA0? Something is bad, but what? >GS> as you might expect, it gives above error message for each >GS> retry 48, 47, 46, ... will not show those here. But there >GS> is also other stuff, as if I'm already running multi-tasked. > >Now configuring HSC, RF, and MSCP-served devices . . . > >GS> and on with the %PAA0 reinitializations down to 24 > >%PAA0, Port is Reinitializing ( 24 Retries Left). Check the Error Log. > >%PAA0, Port Error Bit(s) Set - CNF/PMC/PSR 00000000/00000020/00008280 > >Please check the names of the devices which have been configured, >to make sure that ALL remote devices which you intend to use have >been configured. > >If any device does not show up, please take action now to make it >available. > >GS> in a hurry I power up the RA90 hooked to the KDB50 and >spin it up > >Available device MUC6: device type TK70 >%PAA0, Port is Reinitializing ( 23 Retries Left). Check the Error Log. > >%PAA0, Port Error Bit(s) Set - CNF/PMC/PSR 00000000/00000020/00008280 > >GS> ... > >%PAA0, Port is Reinitializing ( 9 Retries Left). Check the Error Log. > >%PAA0, Port Error Bit(s) Set - CNF/PMC/PSR 00000000/00000020/00008280 > > >Enter "YES" when all needed devices are available: >%PAA0, Port is Reinitializing ( 8 Retries Left). Check the Error Log. > >%PAA0, Port Error Bit(s) Set - CNF/PMC/PSR 00000000/00000020/00008280 > > >Enter "YES" when all needed devices are available: >%PAA0, Port is Reinitializing ( 7 Retries Left). Check the Error Log. > >%PAA0, Port Error Bit(s) Set - CNF/PMC/PSR 00000000/00000020/00008280 > > >Enter "YES" when all needed devices are available: >%PAA0, Port is Reinitializing ( 6 Retries Left). Check the Error Log. > >%PAA0, Port Error Bit(s) Set - CNF/PMC/PSR 00000000/00000020/00008280 > > >Enter "YES" when all needed devices are available: >%PAA0, Port is Reinitializing ( 5 Retries Left). Check the Error Log. > >%PAA0, Port Error Bit(s) Set - CNF/PMC/PSR 00000000/00000020/00008280 > > >Enter "YES" when all needed devices are available: >%PAA0, Port is Reinitializing ( 4 Retries Left). Check the Error Log. > >%PAA0, Port Error Bit(s) Set - CNF/PMC/PSR 00000000/00000020/00008280 > > >Enter "YES" when all needed devices are available: >%PAA0, Port is Reinitializing ( 3 Retries Left). Check the Error Log. > >%PAA0, Port Error Bit(s) Set - CNF/PMC/PSR 00000000/00000020/00008280 > > >Enter "YES" when all needed devices are available: >%PAA0, Port is Reinitializing ( 2 Retries Left). Check the Error Log. > >%PAA0, Port Error Bit(s) Set - CNF/PMC/PSR 00000000/00000020/00008280 > > >Enter "YES" when all needed devices are available: >%PAA0, Port is Reinitializing ( 1 Retries Left). Check the Error Log. > >%PAA0, Port Error Bit(s) Set - CNF/PMC/PSR 00000000/00000020/00008280 > > >Enter "YES" when all needed devices are available: >%PAA0, Port is Reinitializing ( 0 Retries Left). Check the Error Log. > >%PAA0, Port Error Bit(s) Set - CNF/PMC/PSR 00000000/00000020/00008280 > > >Enter "YES" when all needed devices are available: >%PAA0, Port is going Offline. > > >Enter "YES" when all needed devices are available: yes >%BACKUP-I-IDENT, Stand-alone BACKUP V6.1; the date is 23-OCT-2001 >00:03:52.13 >$ > >GS> yea! a prompt! we made it. But what's next? > >$ help >%CLI-W-IVVERB, unrecognized command verb - check validity and spelling > \HELP\ > >GS> ah I give up, I want to see Ultrix up, may be that new >GS> drive did it? Hit the reset button, system initializes >GS> same as above, swap in the Ultrix TK and go: > >>>> BOOT /XMI:E /BI:6 CSA1 >Initializing system. > >#123456789 0123456789 0123456789 01234567# > >F E D C B A 9 8 7 6 5 4 3 2 1 0 NODE # > A A . A M M M M P P P P P P >TYP > o o . + + + + + + + + + + + >STF > . . . . . . . . E E E E E B >BPD > . . . . . . . . + + + + + + >ETF > . . . . . . . . E E E E E B >BPD > > >. . . . . . . . . + . . + + + . XBI D >+ >. . . . . . . . . + + . + . + . XBI E >+ > > > . . . . A4 A3 A2 A1 . . . . . . >ILV > . . . . 128 128 128 128 . . . . . . 512 >Mb > >ROM0 = V4.00 ROM1 = V4.00 EEPROM = 2.03/4.02 SN = AG94408887 > > >Loading system software. >%BOOT-F-Insufficient memory for CI >?06 Halt instruction executed in kernel mode. > PC = 0000040Fc > SAVPSL = 041F0600 > ISP = 00000200 > >Bootstrap failed due to previous error. >>>> > > >GS> this is that CI problem. Now I turn off machine again and >GS> remove CI cards. I do have HSC90s to go with it and I definitely >GS> want to run CI, but for now I'll start easy. So, power up >GS> again. Wait for one initialization again, then: > >>>> BOOT /XMI:E /BI:6 CSA1 >Initializing system. > >#123456789 0123456789 0123456789 01234567# > >F E D C B A 9 8 7 6 5 4 3 2 1 0 NODE # > A A . A M M M M P P P P P P >TYP > o o . + + + + + + + + + + + >STF > . . . . . . . . E E E E E B >BPD > . . . . . . . . + + + + + + >ETF > . . . . . . . . E E E E E B >BPD > > >. . . . . . . . . + . . + . + . XBI D >+ >. . . . . . . . . + . . + + + . XBI E >+ > > . . . . A4 A3 A2 A1 . . . . . . >ILV > . . . . 128 128 128 128 . . . . . . 512 >Mb > >ROM0 = V4.00 ROM1 = V4.00 EEPROM = 2.03/4.02 SN = AG94408887 > > >Loading system software. > >?06 Halt instruction executed in kernel mode. > PC = 00280200c > SAVPSL = 041F0600 > ISP = 00280000 > >Bootstrap failed due to previous error. >>>> > >GS> here ends my console dump. > >If it weren't for the many heavy items I still have to >shuffle, disassemble, lift and reassemble, I could go mad >about the Ultrix folks who have neglected to put >some explanatory printf into the boot code before >the halt call. It could be so much easier if we knew what >the problem is. > >thanks, >-Gunther > >-- >Gunther_Schadow-------------------------------http://aurora.rg.iupui.edu >Regenstrief Institute for Health Care >1050 Wishard Blvd., Indianapolis IN 46202, Phone: (317) 630 7960 >schadow@aurora.rg.iupui.edu------------------#include From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Wed Oct 24 17:54:24 2001 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (ajp166) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:59 2005 Subject: Adventure in Ersatz-11 Message-ID: <00af01c15ce0$31cca750$a1ef9a8d@ajp166> If I'd seem the message I'd have told you most of the PDP-11 games that eat memory run under the RT-11 SJ monitor. Advent is definately one. Allison -----Original Message----- From: Gooijen H To: 'classiccmp@classiccmp.org' Date: Wednesday, October 24, 2001 11:32 AM Subject: RE: Adventure in Ersatz-11 >Stupid that I did not think of trying SJ. >With SJ entering .R ADVENT starts Adventure also! >I assumed that VBG was for Virtual BackGround, so >nice to be comfirmed on that. >Indeed, I have E11 running on an 486DX2/66, but I >cannot give an idea of how fast it runs, compared >to a PDP-11. Although E11 can be set to an 11/70, >I have set it to /35-40 because that is also the >*real* hardware I have. Never set it to /34(A) or >to /44. Both those systems I also have running. >Next time that I start the 11/35 I will run ADVENT >on both of them and measure the time until the >welcome message appears on the screen. > >For the "blinkenlights" check out my webpage. >http://home.hetnet.nl/~tshaj/pdpsite/pdpstartpage.html > >then click in the left pane on the link Homebrew 'PDP-11'. >At this moment only the LEDs of the data bus blink. >I hope to add a piece of hardware that 'talks' to Ersatz-11 >so that the address bus LEDs are also active *and* that the >switches function as on the real thing. The goal is that >the hardware design can facilitate *any* real PDP-11 console >that has switches and lights, from an 11/10 to an 11/70. >Of course, this project needs the cooperation of John Wilson, >and I had already some preliminary contacts with him. >He also likes the option to connect a real console to the >demo(!) version of Ersatz-11. > >-Henk. > >> -----Original Message----- >> From: Jerome Fine [mailto:jhfine@idirect.com] >> Sent: woensdag 24 oktober 2001 0:41 >> To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org >> Subject: Re: Adventure in Ersatz-11 >> >> >> >Gooijen H wrote: >> >> > Yes !! >> >> Jerome Fine replies: >> >> Thank you for the feed back. I was not sure how much memory >> ADVENT requires. You might also try: >> BOOT RT11SJ >> if you wish. >> >> > Thanks very much, Jerome. >> > Booting RT-11FB and then running ADVENT still produces >> > the "Insufficient memory" fatal error. >> > However, VBGEXE works fine ! >> > After the "Welcome to Adventure!! Would you like instructions?" >> > and entering 'YES", it goes: Somewhere nearby is Colossal Cave, >> > etc. >> > This means that I am now going to play Adventure. This has a >> > serious drawback on the expansion of my website ... >> > I am playing it on my "homebrew-PDP" with the BLINKENLIGHTS on!! >> > On my website this project (early phase) has a separate link. >> > BTW. What is VBGEXE, what do the letters stand for? >> > Thanks again, >> > Henk. >> >> "EXEcute Virtual BackGround program" is how I think of the letters >> with the understanding that the word EXEcute is then switched >> to the end. >> >> A few points worth noting. >> >> (a) If FOO.SAV requires any arguments as in: >> "RUN DEV:FOO.SAV arguments" or replace RUN with VBGEXE, >> then they must be on the same line. The alternative is the >> put all three >> parts of the command on separate lines. Otherwise, with just >> "VBGEXE DEV:FOO.SAV" on the first line, somehow the request >> for information expects the arguments to already be there and if not, >> just exits. Entering: >> VBGEXE >> DEV:FOO.SAV >> arguments >> on three separate lines works as well. >> >> (b) The command: >> SRUN VBGEXE.SAV/TERMINAL:n/LEVEL:m/NAME:utility >> also works very well when you want to run a system job at a >> higher priority. >> TERMINAL is only useful with a system that has multi-terminal support >> LEVEL specifies the system job number ( 1=>6 ) >> NAME can be used to automatically select an executable file >> called SY:utility.SAV >> One minor problem is that if name is omitted, then only ONE >> instance of >> VBGEXE can be invoked as a system job since the high memory >> GRCBs (Global >> Region Control Blocks) must all have different names. I have >> a small patch >> with allows the user to do the command: >> SRUN VBGEXE.SAV/TERMINAL:n/LEVEL:m/NAME:VBGEXm >> If that is done, each GRCB is given the name VBGEXm making them all >> different. This means that no program can have the name VBGEX(1=>6), >> a restriction that I assume can be lived with. >> >> I also remember that modifying TECO to be named VMUNG so that >> "VBGEXE VMUNG arguments" >> would work the same as >> "MUNG arguments" >> but use the full 64 KBytes allowed by VBGEXE. >> >> By the way, I assume that you are using E11 on a PC. Which hardware >> and how fast do you find that the code runs compared to any >> real PDP-11 >> hardware. Plus, I can't remember about the "BLINKENLIGHTS" - what >> did you do to have those available? >> >> Sincerely yours, >> >> Jerome Fine >> >> > > From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Wed Oct 24 17:53:06 2001 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (ajp166) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:59 2005 Subject: value of classic DEC machines? Message-ID: <00ae01c15ce0$31526e40$a1ef9a8d@ajp166> My understand of PDP-1s is that if there are 10 left it's a lot. the only two I know of was the BCM Machine and one up in Whitehorse {or was it Yellowknife} running Log/wood mill accounting system. Allison -----Original Message----- From: John Allain To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org Date: Wednesday, October 24, 2001 10:16 AM Subject: Re: value of classic DEC machines? >>> Now a PDP-1 would certainly be worth 100KUS$, > >>..to a collector who had US$100K to throw away and >> absolutely HAS to have the first PDP-1... > >Worth, Costs, Is Valued at... all highly relativistic concepts >don't you think? > >What about history? My book says that only 50 PDP-1's >were produced. Almost certainly 50%++ were scrapped. >Anybody know where all the PDP-1's are? I'd like to see >one (or more). > >John A. > > >BTW, on thread. A good clean runnung PDP-11 with SW >and docs can fetch over $4K, to the original question. > >John A. > > From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Oct 24 17:41:22 2001 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:59 2005 Subject: Reading non-PC format floppies In-Reply-To: from "Mark Tapley" at Oct 24, 1 10:59:27 am Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 2497 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20011024/ae9115ba/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Oct 24 17:21:34 2001 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:59 2005 Subject: What people "should" know In-Reply-To: from "Alan Pearson" at Oct 24, 1 11:19:39 am Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1505 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20011024/da0f1152/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Oct 24 17:28:46 2001 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:59 2005 Subject: Caddy for one DEC-RDD40 external cdrom unit In-Reply-To: <002d01c15c95$2684bb80$8a0101ac@ibm23xhr06> from "John Allain" at Oct 24, 1 10:07:00 am Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1334 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20011024/6bf7c757/attachment.ksh From mikem at open.com.au Wed Oct 24 18:09:14 2001 From: mikem at open.com.au (Mike McCauley) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:59 2005 Subject: ICL PERQ Message-ID: <200110242309.f9ON9C707353@oscar.open.com.au> Anyone out there own an ICL Perq? Ive got one in storage, working last time I looked. Seem to be interesting beasts, a small mini with a very early Unix (Release 3), bitmapped display, 'puck' pointing device and a primitive graphical interface. Possibly one of the first bitmapped display Unixes? Anyone have more info or history? Cheers. -- Mike McCauley mikem@open.com.au Open System Consultants Pty. Ltd Unix, Perl, Motif, C++, WWW 24 Bateman St Hampton, VIC 3188 Australia http://www.open.com.au Phone +61 3 9598-0985 Fax +61 3 9598-0955 Radiator: the most portable, flexible and configurable RADIUS server anywhere. SQL, proxy, DBM, files, LDAP, NIS+, password, NT, Emerald, Platypus, Freeside, TACACS+, PAM, external, Active Directory etc etc on Unix, Win95/8, 2000, NT, MacOS 9, MacOS X From mythtech at Mac.com Wed Oct 24 18:17:19 2001 From: mythtech at Mac.com (Chris) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:59 2005 Subject: MacOS DHCP Server? Message-ID: >It's easier to find an ethernet card for a >Mac II than a localtalk card for a PC hehehe... I have two of them! (localtalk cards for PCs that is) :-) -chris From pcw at mesanet.com Wed Oct 24 18:22:48 2001 From: pcw at mesanet.com (Peter C. Wallace) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:59 2005 Subject: first step getting VAX 6000-400 booted ... In-Reply-To: <3820E2042B6ED5118DC200D0B78EDC470661C7@exc-reo1> Message-ID: On Wed, 24 Oct 2001, Carlini, Antonio wrote: > > >Among all the fanning and blowing and spinning, the disk > >seek can be pretty faint. No, I did not hear the disk > >seeking and it all went suspiciously quick. I may > > My recollection of RA9x drives is that when > you transition them to RUN (either by hitting > the button or as a result of host action) they > is a clear "thunk". > > >not have proper connection between KDB50 and disk. The > >disk shows both ports A and B enabled, and I'm connected > >only to A. Is there any ordering of the 4 ports on the > >KDB50 bulkhead that I need to know to get it right? > > The order of the 4 KDB50 connections is > essentially meaningless. It certainly does not > determine device naming or whatever. > > The A/B port stuff also matters very little. > If your KDB50 is connected to port A, then > port A needs to be enabled and B is > irrelevant. Or vice versa. > > Antonio > > Something I remember on RA81s is that you have to go from controller --> cable --> bulkhead connector --> cable --> disk if you go directly from controller to disk, you end up with pins swapped and things dont work (but nothing hurt) Peter Wallace From vance at ikickass.org Wed Oct 24 18:23:54 2001 From: vance at ikickass.org (One Without Reason) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:59 2005 Subject: MacOS DHCP Server? In-Reply-To: <3BD73F5C.436AEFBC@eoni.com> Message-ID: I would have to disagree. I would use NetBSD and packet forwarding. Peace... Sridhar On Wed, 24 Oct 2001, Jim Arnott wrote: > I have to agree. IPNetRouter is *the* software router for a Mac. I > tried both SurfDoubler and IPNR. Final answer? IPNR. Much more robust > product that SD. > > Jim > From mikeford at socal.rr.com Wed Oct 24 18:37:44 2001 From: mikeford at socal.rr.com (Mike Ford) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:59 2005 Subject: MacOS DHCP Server? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I plead guilty to one count of cut and paste. ;) This package though includes both a DHCP client and a server as part of the NAT and firewall. >A router isn't necessarily a DHCP server. > >Peace... Sridhar > >On Wed, 24 Oct 2001, Mike Ford wrote: > >> > Does anyone know if there is a free/share/money-ware program that >> >can turn a Mac into a DHCP server? For use on an older 68k Mac... >> >> I use a Mac IIci, up and running 24/7 14 months. >> >> What you need is called a router, but any old PC or Mac running a unix >> variant with a couple network cards should work fine too. I use a Mac IIci >> running NetBSD. Check out this web site for details, and email me if you >> need some network cards etc. cheap. >> >> http://users.erols.com/ewinkler/ >> >> From pcw at mesanet.com Wed Oct 24 18:50:27 2001 From: pcw at mesanet.com (Peter C. Wallace) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:59 2005 Subject: MacOS DHCP Server? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Wed, 24 Oct 2001, Chris wrote: > >It's easier to find an ethernet card for a > >Mac II than a localtalk card for a PC > > hehehe... I have two of them! (localtalk cards for PCs that is) :-) > > -chris > > > > I've got one I saved for curiosity's sake -- it has a Z80 (64180) and 32K of RAM on it! Peter Wallace From jhellige at earthlink.net Wed Oct 24 18:53:26 2001 From: jhellige at earthlink.net (Jeff Hellige) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:59 2005 Subject: MacOS DHCP Server? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: >I would have to disagree. I would use NetBSD and packet forwarding. It's possible to use the built-in networking capabilities of OS X to do the same thing as well, without having to install additional software. It was being discussed in the forums on MacNN starting a couple of weeks ago. The power of Unix comes to the Mac Jeff -- Home of the TRS-80 Model 2000 FAQ File http://www.cchaven.com http://www.geocities.com/siliconvalley/lakes/6757 From Antonio.Carlini at riverstonenet.com Wed Oct 24 18:56:00 2001 From: Antonio.Carlini at riverstonenet.com (Carlini, Antonio) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:59 2005 Subject: first step getting VAX 6000-400 booted ... Message-ID: <3820E2042B6ED5118DC200D0B78EDC470661CB@exc-reo1> Peter Wallace wrote: >Something I remember on RA81s is that you have to go from >controller --> cable --> bulkhead connector --> cable --> disk > >if you go directly from controller to disk, you end up with pins swapped >and things dont work (but nothing hurt) I think the rule is you have an *odd* number of connecting cables - since each cable swaps. So in a MicroVAX 3600 you can go directly from KDA50 controller to RA7x internal drive. Or you can go from KDA50 to bulkhead, bulkhead to bulkhead on next cab (e.g. storage array) and from there a third cable goes internally from bulkhead to final drive. In the case of a 6000 typically you go from KDB50 (or KDM70) to bulkhead on 6000 chassis. Then 6000 chassis to Storage Array chassis. Then internally there is a cable from the Storage Array bulkhead to the drive itself. I don't know how the wiring was done for those later kits that allowed RA9x and/or RA7x drives to live in the bottom of the VAX 6000 chassis. Antonio From mikeford at socal.rr.com Wed Oct 24 19:10:10 2001 From: mikeford at socal.rr.com (Mike Ford) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:59 2005 Subject: MacOS DHCP Server? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: >>It's easier to find an ethernet card for a >>Mac II than a localtalk card for a PC > >hehehe... I have two of them! (localtalk cards for PCs that is) :-) I have a selection of three or four brands, including some for PS/2 MCA machines. I dug into a really neat corner of my garage the other night and found all sorts of cool things, including some old Farallon software called Liason or localpath something like that, but it runs on old macs and routes between ethernet, localtalk, and tokenring. From mikeford at socal.rr.com Wed Oct 24 18:56:42 2001 From: mikeford at socal.rr.com (Mike Ford) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:59 2005 Subject: MacOS DHCP Server? In-Reply-To: <200110242231.PAA03797@ellie.ssl.berkeley.edu> References: from Mike Ford at "Oct 24, 2001 12:00:40 pm" Message-ID: >The main reason to use a Mac as a router is to provide an IP over localtalk >to IP over ethernet gateway. It's easier to find an ethernet card for a >Mac II than a localtalk card for a PC. > >> I use a Mac IIci >> running NetBSD. Check out this web site for details, and email me if you >> need some network cards etc. cheap. > >Does NetBSD support IP over localtalk? If so, I may switch over. I don't know about NetBSD, but I kind of doubt it. Its a Maybe via Apples free LocalTalk Bridge software. The Shiva/Kinetics FastPath and some of the Farallon boxes yes. My NetBSD router IIci is pure ethernet, and one of my other normal macs does the LocalTalk Bridge, but I only use it for printers right now. IP over localtalk is on my future agenda though. From vance at ikickass.org Wed Oct 24 19:17:18 2001 From: vance at ikickass.org (One Without Reason) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:59 2005 Subject: MacOS DHCP Server? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: But, AFAIK, Mac Os X doesn't run on 68K Macs. Peace... Sridhar On Wed, 24 Oct 2001, Jeff Hellige wrote: > >I would have to disagree. I would use NetBSD and packet forwarding. > > It's possible to use the built-in networking capabilities of > OS X to do the same thing as well, without having to install > additional software. It was being discussed in the forums on MacNN > starting a couple of weeks ago. The power of Unix comes to the Mac > > > Jeff > -- > Home of the TRS-80 Model 2000 FAQ File > http://www.cchaven.com > http://www.geocities.com/siliconvalley/lakes/6757 > From pcw at mesanet.com Wed Oct 24 19:22:25 2001 From: pcw at mesanet.com (Peter C. Wallace) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:59 2005 Subject: More free ISA/VME cards Message-ID: Maybe someone would like these for shipping charges. Hate to just toss em. ISA Q DESC 2 D-A cards 2X 12 bit analog out ? 1 D-A ADC card 2x12 bit D-A + maybe 8 chan 12 bit A-D ? 1 localtalk card ? 1 SCSI adapter Adaptec 1522A 2 SCSI adapter Adaptec 1540C 1 SCSI adapter Adaptec 1540B 1 SCSI adapter Adaptec 1542CF VME Q DESC 2 AB Creonics MCC 2 axis servo motor controller 1 Data translation DA -- ADC 12 bit DT1408 1 Teckint opto-isolated I/O card TVM 744 Misc Q DESC 6 OMTI SCSI/MFM disk controller model 310x 1 Columbia Data Products looks like MFM HDC has Z80 + 64K RAM + MFM disk interface PN 10805-D Peter Wallace From pcw at mesanet.com Wed Oct 24 19:31:30 2001 From: pcw at mesanet.com (Peter C. Wallace) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:59 2005 Subject: first step getting VAX 6000-400 booted ... In-Reply-To: <3820E2042B6ED5118DC200D0B78EDC470661CB@exc-reo1> Message-ID: On Wed, 24 Oct 2001, Carlini, Antonio wrote: > Peter Wallace wrote: > > >Something I remember on RA81s is that you have to go from > >controller --> cable --> bulkhead connector --> cable --> disk > > > >if you go directly from controller to disk, you end up with pins > swapped > >and things dont work (but nothing hurt) > > I think the rule is you have an *odd* number of > connecting cables - since each cable swaps. > > So in a MicroVAX 3600 you can go directly from > KDA50 controller to RA7x internal drive. Or you > can go from KDA50 to bulkhead, bulkhead to > bulkhead on next cab (e.g. storage array) and > from there a third cable goes internally from > bulkhead to final drive. > > In the case of a 6000 typically you go from > KDB50 (or KDM70) to bulkhead on 6000 chassis. > Then 6000 chassis to Storage Array chassis. > Then internally there is a cable from the > Storage Array bulkhead to the drive itself. > > I don't know how the wiring was done for > those later kits that allowed RA9x and/or > RA7x drives to live in the bottom of > the VAX 6000 chassis. > > Antonio > > > > Oh, OK its been a looooong time... I just remembered that if it was wrong nothing worked and there was no indication of what was wrong... Peter Wallace From spectre at stockholm.ptloma.edu Wed Oct 24 19:51:14 2001 From: spectre at stockholm.ptloma.edu (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:59 2005 Subject: MacOS DHCP Server? In-Reply-To: <200110242231.PAA03797@ellie.ssl.berkeley.edu> from "Eric J. Korpela" at "Oct 24, 1 03:31:12 pm" Message-ID: <200110250051.RAA12240@stockholm.ptloma.edu> > > I use a Mac IIci > > running NetBSD. Check out this web site for details, and email me if you > > need some network cards etc. cheap. > > Does NetBSD support IP over localtalk? If so, I may switch over. Alas, LocalTalk is still not yet supported. Someone is 'working on it'. -- ----------------------------- personal page: http://www.armory.com/~spectre/ -- Cameron Kaiser, Point Loma Nazarene University * ckaiser@stockholm.ptloma.edu -- There are few problems that the liberal usage of high explosives can't cure. From edick at idcomm.com Wed Oct 24 19:50:47 2001 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:59 2005 Subject: What people "should" know References: Message-ID: <001c01c15cef$163389a0$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> That's why it's been common practice to fire anyone who uses one-shots (monostables) for anything. I personally believe it should go beyond that, in that the perpetartor of such a heinous crim should be barred from asserting his credentials as a circuit designer for a short period, of, say, 10 decades. There is, I'm sure, a place for one-shots, but they've been abused so often it's hard to remember what that might have been. Dick ----- Original Message ----- From: "Tony Duell" To: Sent: Wednesday, October 24, 2001 4:21 PM Subject: Re: What people "should" know > > comments. But people who have been taught C++ would recognise that this > > is not the "done thing". To quote Gordon The Big Engine (sorry, too many > > Oh right... I guess it's similar to the feeling I get when I see a board > of monostables to produce various pulses rather than 'doing it properly' > and using a state machine. It'll work [1], but it's not the 'right way to > do it' > > [1] Well, OK, unlike bad style in software (which should either work all > the time or never), bad hardware style can work most of the time. > Monostables are notorious for drifting with time, temperature, etc, and > then your carefully-timed pulses go all over the place. > > -tony > > From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Oct 24 19:41:09 2001 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:59 2005 Subject: ICL PERQ In-Reply-To: <200110242309.f9ON9C707353@oscar.open.com.au> from "Mike McCauley" at Oct 25, 1 09:09:14 am Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 7521 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20011025/e4da6330/attachment.ksh From mikeford at socal.rr.com Wed Oct 24 19:53:53 2001 From: mikeford at socal.rr.com (Mike Ford) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:59 2005 Subject: MacOS DHCP Server? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: >>I would have to disagree. I would use NetBSD and packet forwarding. > > It's possible to use the built-in networking capabilities of >OS X to do the same thing as well, without having to install OS X only runs well on a G3 native machine (not a G3 upgrade) and newer, while NetBSD runs fine on a IIci. The right tool for the job. From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Oct 24 20:09:46 2001 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:59 2005 Subject: What people "should" know In-Reply-To: <001c01c15cef$163389a0$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> from "Richard Erlacher" at Oct 24, 1 06:50:47 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1453 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20011025/5abc4a36/attachment.ksh From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Wed Oct 24 20:34:33 2001 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (ajp166) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:59 2005 Subject: What people "should" know Message-ID: <010501c15cf5$3aa37ba0$a1ef9a8d@ajp166> Here here! One-shots are fine for pule shortening or stretching so long as it's non-critical. Worst abuse, Altair 8800 front pannel. One of the best designs that use a oneshot was the PERCOM Cassette board, it was a digitial oneshot and predictable. Allison -----Original Message----- From: Richard Erlacher To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org Date: Wednesday, October 24, 2001 9:12 PM Subject: Re: What people "should" know >That's why it's been common practice to fire anyone who uses one-shots >(monostables) for anything. I personally believe it should go beyond that, in >that the perpetartor of such a heinous crim should be barred from asserting his >credentials as a circuit designer for a short period, of, say, 10 decades. From geoffrob at stmarks.pp.catholic.edu.au Wed Oct 24 20:33:02 2001 From: geoffrob at stmarks.pp.catholic.edu.au (Geoff Roberts) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:59 2005 Subject: first step getting VAX 6000-400 booted ... References: <00b001c15ce0$326ba670$a1ef9a8d@ajp166> Message-ID: <004601c15cf4$fdf8c840$de2c67cb@helpdesk> ----- Original Message ----- From: "ajp166" To: Sent: Thursday, October 25, 2001 8:27 AM Subject: Re: first step getting VAX 6000-400 booted ... > OK, the default boot device (a SET option) is either dead > or not found. > > Allison Yup. I missed the original of his response to my questions so I'll go thru it now. > -----Original Message----- > From: Gunther Schadow > To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org > Date: Wednesday, October 24, 2001 12:19 PM > Subject: Re: first step getting VAX 6000-400 booted ... > >I don't have the console dump on that, but the only error message > >I recollect was: > > > >?3 Device I/O Error (or something very similar.) Ok, it's not talking to whatever the boot device is supposed to be. > >Would that be the appropriate response on an RA90 drive with > >wiped-out media? My drive completed all tests, including the > >spun-down and the spun-up tests (the latter includes disk > >access tests.) Seems to be at a physical level. Something is not working. I don't think I've used a TK70 to do anything since I got the machines. About the only thing it's useful for is for CPU EEPROM settings. > >> Very likely, do you have the companion card for the TU81+ (KLESI-B) to Ok saw that in the list. Tick in the box, so your TU81 should work. > >Instructions on how to write an Ultrix tape from VMS would > >be cool. I'm sure I can get VMS up. What is the least > >amount of knowledge that I need to get a VMS system up > >in single user mode We'll cross that one when we get there, we need to sort this IO problem out first. You will need to do a conversational boot from disk if you don't have the system password, (assuming it's got an OS on the drive.) One other possibility, the RA9x displays all 0's if the drive number is unconfigured. Set it to 1 (the how to is in the manual Antonio sent me, and I think I saw you in the CC) and boot from DU1 and see if that works. The boot command should look like this >>> SET BOOT CONV /R5:1 /XMI:D /BI:3 DU1 (You need the key in the UPDATE position for this) Then you can try and boot the machine from the disk. >>> BOOT CONV http://eisner.decus.org/vms/faq.htm is the VMS FAQ, strongly recommend getting this. MGMT5 details conversational boot and the procedure for lost passwords. Quote as follows. 1.. Halt the system. Exactly how this is done depends on the specific system model: Depending on the model, this can involve pressing the HALT button, entering CTRL/P on the console, or pressing the BREAK key on the console. 2.. At the >>> console prompt, use a console command to boot into the SYSBOOT> utility. (SYSBOOT allows conversational changes to system parameters.) The syntax for the conversational bootstrap varies by system model - this typically involves specifying a flag of 1, for example: VAX: B/1 B/R5:1 @GENBOO Alpha: b -flags 0,1 If your system has a non-zero system root (such as root SYSE, shown here), you will have to use a console command such as the following: VAX: B/E0000001 B/R5:E0000001 @ Alpha: b -flags e,1 If your system has a hardware password (various systems support a password that prevents unauthorized access to the console), you will need to know theis password and will need to enter it using the LOGIN command at the console. If you get an Inv Cmd error trying to perform a conversational bootstrap, and you do not have the hardware console password for the console LOGIN command, you are stuck - you will need to call for hardware service in order to reset the hardware console password. The syntax used for the console password mechanism varies. 3.. Once at the SYSBOOT> prompt, request that OpenVMS read the system startup commands directly from the system console, that the window system (if any) not be started, and that OpenVMS not record these parameter changes for subsequent system reboots: SET/STARTUP OPA0: SET WINDOW_SYSTEM 0 SET WRITESYSPARAMS 0 CONTINUE 4.. At the $ prompt, the system will now be accepting startup commands directly from the console. Type the following two DCL commands: SPAWN @SYS$SYSTEM:STARTUP The result of these two commands will be the normal system startup, but you will be left logged in on the console, running under a privileged username. Without the use of the SPAWN command, you would be logged out when the startup completes. If necessary, you can skip the invocation of the system startup temporarily, and perform tasks such as registering license PAKs or various other "single-user" maintenance operations. 5.. Use the following commands to reset the SYSTEM password: SET DEFAULT SYS$SYSTEM: ! or wherever SYSUAF.DAT resides RUN SYS$SYSTEM:AUTHORIZE MODIFY SYSTEM /PASSWORD=newpassword EXIT 6.. These steps will change the SYSTEM password to the specified new newpassword password value. Reboot the system normally - the SYSTEM password should now be set to the value you specified in Step 5. Some people will suggest a method using the UAFALTERNATE SYSGEN parameter. This approach is not always reliable and is not recommended, as there can easily be an alternate user authorization file configured on the system. For further information on emergency startup and shutdown, as well as for the official OpenVMS documentation on how to change the SYSTEM password from the console in an emergency, please see the OpenVMS System Manager's Manual in the OpenVMS documentation set. You can also use the conversational bootstrap technique shown above (the steps through Step 3) to alter various system parameters. At the SYSBOOT> prompt, you can enter new parameters values: SHOW MAXPROCESSCNT SET . 64 CONTINUE The "." is a shorthand notation used for the last parameter examined. > >It definitely is as the source code says. I'll use my FreeBSD > >laptop as the boot host. Monitoring with tcpdump is a good way > >of debugging network booting. Yup. That'll work if we have to. > >Attached below you'll find annotated console dumps from my > >yesterday's attempts (thanks to xterm :-) > > > >My comments are lines starting with "GS>" > > > >GS> I have swapped in another TK70 drive (one that may be less worn) > >GS> and now I turn on the machine: > > > >#123456789 0123456789 0123456789 01234567# > > > >F E D C B A 9 8 7 6 5 4 3 2 1 0 NODE # > > A A . A M M M M P P P P P P > >TYP > > o o . + + + + + + + + + + + > >STF > > . . . . . . . . E E E E E B > >BPD > > . . . . . . . . + + + + + + > >ETF > > . . . . . . . . E E E E E B > >BPD > > > > > >. . . . . . . . . + . . + + + . XBI D > >+ > >. . . . . . . . . + + . + . + . XBI E > >+ > > > > . . . . A4 A3 A2 A1 . . . . . . > >ILV > > . . . . 128 128 128 128 . . . . . . 512 > >Mb > > > >ROM0 = V4.00 ROM1 = V4.00 EEPROM = 2.03/4.02 SN = AG94408887 > > > > > >>>> SHOW ALL > > Type Rev > > 1+ KA64A (8082) 000D > > 2+ KA64A (8082) 000D > > 3+ KA64A (8082) 000D > > 4+ KA64A (8082) 000D > > 5+ KA64A (8082) 000D > > 6+ KA64A (8082) 000D > > 7+ MS65A (4001) 0084 > > 8+ MS65A (4001) 0084 > > 9+ MS65A (4001) 0084 > > A+ MS65A (4001) 0084 > > B+ KDM70 (0C22) 2811 > > D+ DWMBA/A (2001) 0002 > > E+ DWMBA/A (2001) 0002 Ok, so it's a 6 CPU system and 4 x 128Mb MS65A's. Nice. > > XBI D > > 1+ DWMBA/B (2107) 000A > > 2+ KLESI-B (0103) 0006 > > 3+ KDB50 (010E) 142C > > 6+ DEBNI (0118) 0400 KLESI for the TU81+, KDB50 for the SDI drives, Ethernet > > XBI E > > 1+ DWMBA/B (2107) 000A > > 3+ DMB32 (0109) 0004 > > 5+ CIBCA-B (0108) 41C2 > > 6+ TBK70 (410B) 0307 DMB32 8 x Serial for terms. Plus a couple of strange parallel ports on a single 50(?) pin d connector that I have never found anything compatible with. Someone suggested it was a "Data Products" Parallel port x 2, whatever that is. Antonio or Allison, either of you know what you can use with it? CIBCA-B for speaking to HSC's or other CI equipped Vaxen. If you don't have a HSC, pull the cards, as some of your error msgs that are confusing the issue are coming from there. LEave the cab kit in in case you want to put them back later if you get something that speaks CI. (Caveat: If you do you MUST have a Star Coupler as well) Controller for the TK70 > > Current Primary: 1 > > /NOENABLED- > > /NOVECTOR_ENABLED- > > /NOPRIMARY- > >F E D C B A 9 8 7 6 5 4 3 2 1 0 NODE # > > . . . . A4 A3 A2 A1 . . . . . . > >ILV > > . . . . 128 128 128 128 . . . . . . 512 > >Mb > > /INTERLEAVE:DEFAULT > > /SCOPE /SPEED: 9600 /BREAK > > English > > XMI:D BI:6 08-00-2B-34-A5-CA > > DEFAULT /XMI:E /BI:6 CSA1 Default boot is from the TK70 > > TAPE /XMI:E /BI:6 CSA1 Tape boot is from the TK70 > > ETH0 /XMI:D /BI:6 ET0 ETH boot is from the Ethernet. None of these will attempt a boot from the KLESI or the KDB50 > >SHOW DSSI is not yet implemented > > > >GS> Now I have loaded the VMS 6.1 stand alone backup TK70 and go: > > > >>>> BOOT /XMI:E /BI:6 CSA1 > >Initializing system. > > > >#123456789 0123456789 0123456789 01234567# > > > >F E D C B A 9 8 7 6 5 4 3 2 1 0 NODE # > > A A . A M M M M P P P P P P > >TYP > > o o . + + + + + + + + + + + > >STF > > . . . . . . . . E E E E E B > >BPD > > . . . . . . . . + + + + + + > >ETF > > . . . . . . . . E E E E E B > >BPD > > > > > >. . . . . . . . . + . . + + + . XBI D > >+ > >. . . . . . . . . + + . + . + . XBI E > >+ > > > > . . . . A4 A3 A2 A1 . . . . . . > >ILV > > . . . . 128 128 128 128 . . . . . . 512 > >Mb > > > >ROM0 = V4.00 ROM1 = V4.00 EEPROM = 2.03/4.02 SN = AG94408887 > > > > > >Loading system software. > > > > OpenVMS VAX Version V6.1 Major version id = 1 Minor version id = > >0c > >PLEASE ENTER DATE AND TIME (DD-MMM-YYYY HH:MM) 23-OCT-2001 > > > >Configuring devices . . . > > > >%PAA0, Port Error Bit(s) Set - CNF/PMC/PSR 00000000/00000020/00008280 > > > >%PAA0, Port is Reinitializing ( 49 Retries Left). Check the Error Log. > > > >GS> oops, what is %PAA0? Something is bad, but what? > >GS> as you might expect, it gives above error message for each > >GS> retry 48, 47, 46, ... will not show those here. But there > >GS> is also other stuff, as if I'm already running multi-tasked. This is coming from the CIBCA because it's not terminated. Pull the CIBCA cards out or it will annoy you to death. > >Now configuring HSC, RF, and MSCP-served devices . . . > > > >GS> and on with the %PAA0 reinitializations down to 24 > > > >%PAA0, Port is Reinitializing ( 24 Retries Left). Check the Error Log. > > > >%PAA0, Port Error Bit(s) Set - CNF/PMC/PSR 00000000/00000020/00008280 > > > >Please check the names of the devices which have been configured, > >to make sure that ALL remote devices which you intend to use have > >been configured. > > > >If any device does not show up, please take action now to make it > >available. > > > >GS> in a hurry I power up the RA90 hooked to the KDB50 and > >spin it up > > > >Available device MUC6: device type TK70 > >%PAA0, Port is Reinitializing ( 23 Retries Left). Check the Error Log. > > > >%PAA0, Port Error Bit(s) Set - CNF/PMC/PSR 00000000/00000020/00008280 > > > >GS> ... > > > >%PAA0, Port is Reinitializing ( 9 Retries Left). Check the Error Log. > > > >%PAA0, Port Error Bit(s) Set - CNF/PMC/PSR 00000000/00000020/00008280 > > > > > >Enter "YES" when all needed devices are available: > >%PAA0, Port is Reinitializing ( 8 Retries Left). Check the Error Log. > > > >%PAA0, Port Error Bit(s) Set - CNF/PMC/PSR 00000000/00000020/00008280 > > > > > >Enter "YES" when all needed devices are available: > >%PAA0, Port is Reinitializing ( 7 Retries Left). Check the Error Log. > > > >%PAA0, Port Error Bit(s) Set - CNF/PMC/PSR 00000000/00000020/00008280 > > > > > >Enter "YES" when all needed devices are available: > >%PAA0, Port is Reinitializing ( 6 Retries Left). Check the Error Log. > > > >%PAA0, Port Error Bit(s) Set - CNF/PMC/PSR 00000000/00000020/00008280 > > > > > >Enter "YES" when all needed devices are available: > >%PAA0, Port is Reinitializing ( 5 Retries Left). Check the Error Log. > > > >%PAA0, Port Error Bit(s) Set - CNF/PMC/PSR 00000000/00000020/00008280 > > > > > >Enter "YES" when all needed devices are available: > >%PAA0, Port is Reinitializing ( 4 Retries Left). Check the Error Log. > > > >%PAA0, Port Error Bit(s) Set - CNF/PMC/PSR 00000000/00000020/00008280 > > > > > >Enter "YES" when all needed devices are available: > >%PAA0, Port is Reinitializing ( 3 Retries Left). Check the Error Log. > > > >%PAA0, Port Error Bit(s) Set - CNF/PMC/PSR 00000000/00000020/00008280 > > > > > >Enter "YES" when all needed devices are available: > >%PAA0, Port is Reinitializing ( 2 Retries Left). Check the Error Log. > > > >%PAA0, Port Error Bit(s) Set - CNF/PMC/PSR 00000000/00000020/00008280 > > > > > >Enter "YES" when all needed devices are available: > >%PAA0, Port is Reinitializing ( 1 Retries Left). Check the Error Log. > > > >%PAA0, Port Error Bit(s) Set - CNF/PMC/PSR 00000000/00000020/00008280 > > > > > >Enter "YES" when all needed devices are available: > >%PAA0, Port is Reinitializing ( 0 Retries Left). Check the Error Log. > > > >%PAA0, Port Error Bit(s) Set - CNF/PMC/PSR 00000000/00000020/00008280 > > > > > >Enter "YES" when all needed devices are available: > >%PAA0, Port is going Offline. > > > > > >Enter "YES" when all needed devices are available: yes > >%BACKUP-I-IDENT, Stand-alone BACKUP V6.1; the date is 23-OCT-2001 > >00:03:52.13 > >$ > > > >GS> yea! a prompt! we made it. But what's next? This would be where you enter backup commands, SA backup is purely that, it's a self booting backup. Ok, couple of things are clear. 1) Lose the CI stuff for now. 2) It's not seeing any other devices (it should give you a list of things it sees apart from the boot device) ie TU81 or (importantly) the RA9x drive(s) so you need to check connectivity, device function etc. I think you may have a bad cable or something. > >$ help > >%CLI-W-IVVERB, unrecognized command verb - check validity and spelling > > \HELP\ > > > >GS> ah I give up, I want to see Ultrix up, may be that new > >GS> drive did it? Hit the reset button, system initializes > >GS> same as above, swap in the Ultrix TK and go: > > > >>>> BOOT /XMI:E /BI:6 CSA1 > >Initializing system. > > > >#123456789 0123456789 0123456789 01234567# > > > >F E D C B A 9 8 7 6 5 4 3 2 1 0 NODE # > > A A . A M M M M P P P P P P > >TYP > > o o . + + + + + + + + + + + > >STF > > . . . . . . . . E E E E E B > >BPD > > . . . . . . . . + + + + + + > >ETF > > . . . . . . . . E E E E E B > >BPD > > > > > >. . . . . . . . . + . . + + + . XBI D > >+ > >. . . . . . . . . + + . + . + . XBI E > >+ > > > > > > . . . . A4 A3 A2 A1 . . . . . . > >ILV > > . . . . 128 128 128 128 . . . . . . 512 > >Mb > > > >ROM0 = V4.00 ROM1 = V4.00 EEPROM = 2.03/4.02 SN = AG94408887 > > > > > >Loading system software. > >%BOOT-F-Insufficient memory for CI > >?06 Halt instruction executed in kernel mode. > > PC = 0000040Fc > > SAVPSL = 041F0600 > > ISP = 00000200 > > > >Bootstrap failed due to previous error. > >>>> > > > > > >GS> this is that CI problem. Now I turn off machine again and > >GS> remove CI cards. I do have HSC90s to go with it and I definitely > >GS> want to run CI, but for now I'll start easy. So, power up > >GS> again. Wait for one initialization again, then: > > > >>>> BOOT /XMI:E /BI:6 CSA1 > >Initializing system. > > > >#123456789 0123456789 0123456789 01234567# > > > >F E D C B A 9 8 7 6 5 4 3 2 1 0 NODE # > > A A . A M M M M P P P P P P > >TYP > > o o . + + + + + + + + + + + > >STF > > . . . . . . . . E E E E E B > >BPD > > . . . . . . . . + + + + + + > >ETF > > . . . . . . . . E E E E E B > >BPD > > > > > >. . . . . . . . . + . . + . + . XBI D > >+ > >. . . . . . . . . + . . + + + . XBI E > >+ > > > > . . . . A4 A3 A2 A1 . . . . . . > >ILV > > . . . . 128 128 128 128 . . . . . . 512 > >Mb > > > >ROM0 = V4.00 ROM1 = V4.00 EEPROM = 2.03/4.02 SN = AG94408887 > > > > > >Loading system software. > > > >?06 Halt instruction executed in kernel mode. > > PC = 00280200c > > SAVPSL = 041F0600 > > ISP = 00280000 > > > >Bootstrap failed due to previous error. > >>>> > > > >GS> here ends my console dump. I have a suspicion that Ultrix doesn't support more than 4 CPU's (nor do VMS versions prior to 6.??1??2 - I forget) Either that or the ultrix tape is iffy. > >If it weren't for the many heavy items I still have to > >shuffle, disassemble, lift and reassemble, I could go mad > >about the Ultrix folks who have neglected to put > >some explanatory printf into the boot code before > >the halt call. It could be so much easier if we knew what > >the problem is. Indeed. I've located what appears to be a full set of Ultrix books in one of the sheds at home, I'll see if I can find the appropriate stuff tonight. In the meantime you need to find out why the SA Backup can't see your RA9x drives. Once you solve that, you can try booting from DUA0: on the KDB50 and see what if anything is on there, but at the moment it doesn't seem to see the device. Leave the CI stuff (make sure you pull BOTH cards) out for now, or connect it to a star coupler so it stops bitching at you. Hope this helps Geoff Roberts Computer Systems Manager Saint Mark's College Port Pirie, South Australia geoffrob@stmarks.pp.catholic.edu.au ICQ 1970476 From geoffrob at stmarks.pp.catholic.edu.au Wed Oct 24 20:46:42 2001 From: geoffrob at stmarks.pp.catholic.edu.au (Geoff Roberts) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:59 2005 Subject: first step getting VAX 6000-400 booted ... References: Message-ID: <004c01c15cf6$e59ce720$de2c67cb@helpdesk> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Peter C. Wallace" To: Sent: Thursday, October 25, 2001 10:01 AM Subject: RE: first step getting VAX 6000-400 booted ... > > Peter Wallace wrote: > > I don't know how the wiring was done for > > those later kits that allowed RA9x and/or > > RA7x drives to live in the bottom of > > the VAX 6000 chassis. My 6000-440 at home has 2 x RA90's that I pulled out of a cabinet and stuck in the bottom of it. There is a single black SDI cable running from each of them to the KDB50 bulkhead on the back panel of the Vax. They work just fine. Cheers Geoff Roberts Computer Systems Manager Saint Mark's College Port Pirie, South Australia geoffrob@stmarks.pp.catholic.edu.au ICQ 1970476 From dittman at dittman.net Wed Oct 24 21:09:33 2001 From: dittman at dittman.net (Eric Dittman) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:59 2005 Subject: first step getting VAX 6000-400 booted ... In-Reply-To: from "Geoff Roberts" at Oct 25, 2001 11:03:02 AM Message-ID: <200110250209.f9P29Xg01925@narnia.int.dittman.net> > > > XBI E > > > 1+ DWMBA/B (2107) 000A > > > 3+ DMB32 (0109) 0004 > > > 5+ CIBCA-B (0108) 41C2 > > > 6+ TBK70 (410B) 0307 > > DMB32 8 x Serial for terms. Plus a couple of strange parallel ports on a > single 50(?) pin d connector that I have never > found anything compatible with. Someone suggested it was a "Data Products" > Parallel port x 2, whatever that is. > Antonio or Allison, either of you know what you can use with it? I'm not Antonio or Allison, but I can answer this question. The "Data Products" parallel port works with printers with a "Data Products" parallel interface. I've used a couple of different printers with this interface. It's been a while so I can't remember the official name of the interface. The printers I used were made by Data Products and OEMed to other manufacturers (including DEC). > CIBCA-B for speaking to HSC's or other CI equipped Vaxen. If you don't have > a HSC, pull the cards, as some of your error msgs that are confusing the > issue are coming from there. LEave the cab kit in in case you want to put > them back later if you get something that speaks CI. (Caveat: If you do you > MUST have a Star Coupler as well) The CI will work with HSJ controllers as well. I agree that if you don't have a StarCoupler then you'll want to remove the cards. Also, if you do ever get CI storage, be careful with the CI cables. They can't be bent beyond a certain radius or they'll break. Also, if you do get any CI storage (or another node with CI), you may be tempted to directly connect without a StarCoupler. Some people have gotten this to work, but it is not recommended and can cause damage. -- Eric Dittman dittman@dittman.net Check out the DEC Enthusiasts Club at http://www.dittman.net/ From mikem at open.com.au Wed Oct 24 21:14:17 2001 From: mikem at open.com.au (Mike McCauley) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:59 2005 Subject: ICL PERQ In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <200110250214.f9P2EG708880@oscar.open.com.au> Hi Tony, thanks for the thorough description. Youve multiplied my knowledge by a factor of at least 10. Sounds like I have a 2T2 with PNX. This soft microcoding thing is amazing. Do I understand that you have been writing new microcode? The Raster Op machine sounds a lot like the blitter in Amiga. I think the early PARC machines had something similar? But this must predate them both? Cheers. On Thu, 25 Oct 2001 10:41, Tony Duell wrote: > > Anyone out there own an ICL Perq? > > No, I don't have 'an' ICL PERQ. I've got 4 of them :-) > > > Ive got one in storage, working last time I looked. Seem to be > > interesting beasts, a small mini with a very early Unix (Release 3), > > bitmapped display, 'puck' pointing device and a primitive graphical > > interface. Possibly one of the first bitmapped display Unixes? > > I belive that PNX (PERQ Unix) was the first Unix to have graphics > operations in the kernel. > > > Anyone have more info or history? > > The first thing to do is to determine exactly what you have. There are 3 > different cabinet designs, and various internal variations : > > PERQ 1 : The easiest way to recognise this series is that it has an 8" > floppy drive mounted horizonatally on the front. On the bottom of the > keyboard there's the 3 digit DDS display which shows error codes, etc. > > Inside the box there's a Shugart SA4000-series 14" hard disk, either 12M > or (more commonly) 24M. 3 main circuit boards -- CPU, Memory (often > 1Mbytes, although 2Mbytes is possible) (and video display), CIO (Just > about all the input/output circuitry, including a Z80 for low speed I/O). > 2 option slots for the CPU option board (never produced AFAIK), and the > Optional I/O card (Ethernet, PERQlink, Laser printer controller). The > monitor is a VMI portrait unit > > There are 2 versions of this machine : PERQ 1, with 4K of writeable > control store on the CPU board and PERQ 1a with 16K WCS and some extra > microinstructions. > > PERQ 2 : This machine has an 8" floppy drive mounted vertically on the > front, and has the DDS on the main box, next to the power switch. It uses > the same CPU as the PERQ 1a. The memory boards are similar, but some are > modified to drive a landscape monitor. The I/O board was redesigned, and > now includes an ethernet interface and more memory on the Z80 I/O > processor (which can now run user-downloaded programs). Same 2 option > slots, and the same Optional I/O cards work in the PERQ 2s (yes, you can > have 2 ethernet interfaces on the same machine). > > There are 3 known versions : > > PERQ 2 T1 : KME Portrait monitor (normally), 8" Micropolis hard disk > mounted vertically at the back of the machine. Normally 1M RAM > > PERQ 2T2. Normally Moniterm Landscape monitor (although a PERQ systems > Portrait monitor is claimed to ezist). 5.25" ST506-interfaced hard disk. > 2Mbyte machines are common. > > PERQ 2T4. VERY rare. It's similar to a PERQ 2T2 (5.25" drive), but the > CPU is redeisgned to be a 24 bit unit. This allowed more memory to be > fitted (up to 16M words == 32Mbytes), although only 4Mbyte machines are > known. Changes to all 3 boards (CPU to make it 24 bit, memory to make it > 4M, EIO to make the DMA controller 24 bit). Same option cards, etc. > > PERQ 3a (AKA PERQ AGW330). This is an ICL design (nothing really to do > with PERQ systems), and uses a 68020 CPU rather than the wonderful > soft-microcoded board in the older PERQs. IMHO it's a PERQ in name only > (which is why the 1's and 2's are called 'classic PERQs') although the > graphics processor does allow user microcode (it's a pair of AMD29116s). > Looks like a deep tower PC, with a vertically mounted 5.25" floppy drive > on the front, and a 4 digit hexadecimal DDS display next to it. > > The CPU in the classic PERQ is interesting. Most of them are 20 bit CPUs > (!) using 5 74S181 ALUs. The full 20 bits are used for calculating > addresses, but as the memory is only 16 bits wide, for much of the time > only 16 bits are used. There are 256 20-bit wide general purpose > registers. The microcode is loaded from disk[1] when the machine is > powered up, so the machine can run any reasonable instruction set. > There's 4K or 16K of control store controlled by an 2910 sequencer, > possibly extended by 2 bits (for the 16K models) -- the '2 bit kludge' :-) > > [1] Yes, OK, it can also load from the PERQlink 16 bit parallel interface. > > 16K models also have a few extra featurs, including an 'index' register > to select one of the 256 general-purpose registers (this is the only CPU > I've programmed where you can do a trick like that at the microcode > level), MULSTEP and DIVSTEP logic (to speed up multiplication and > division), and so on. > > There is also a graphics processor, used to update screen bitmaps. This is > part of the main CPU, and uses the latter to address words of said > bitmaps in main memory. The actually graphics processor hardware combines > 2 words (one from the source bitmap, one from the destination), taking > account of the fact that the boundary of the region to be updated may not > be a word boundary, and that the 2 bitmaps need not be bit-aligned. > > Oh, what the heck... > > Title : Raster Operations > Original : Clementine > Group : Traditional (?) > Introduction: One of the best kept mysteries of the PERQ workstation CPU > board is the operation of the 'Raster Op' machine - a circuit designed to > combine two bitmaps and produce a result - obviously a useful function on a > window-driven machine. Anyway, the following compuer filksong should at > least partly remedy that. It's a virtually 100% accurate description of the > graphics pipeline circuits and how the 2 bitmaps flow through them > > > Song: > > In the wierd PERQ CPU board > Released in seventy-nine > Live some digital logic circuits > Graphics bitmaps to combine > > Chorus: > Raster Ops Now! Raster Ops Now! > Through the shift and to combine > Watch the screen image updating > Through the raster op pipeline > > The fifo is loaded straight from memory. > That's the first stage of our line. > Clocked in by the controlling logic > Quadwords loaded all the time. > > Source data flows out of the fifo > To the shifter which shall align > The edges of updated regions > To make them easy to combine. > > But each word of the destination > With 2 source words may combine > So the last word out of the fifo > is latched in the semi-pipeline > > Take thirty-one bits of the source words > From the last stage of the line > The shifter shall select just sixteen > To feed on and thus combine > > The destination words from memory > Through a single stage pipeline > That's all that's needed before they enter > Proms and thus with source combine > > The Proms take source and destination > A new bitmap to combine > Edges of the updated region > The mask word shall now define > > There is one more D-type register > The last stage of our pipeline > To send the data back to memory > Two clocks later - just in time (oooops Tine :-)) > > The source and destination bit fields > The shift value shall define > Subtracted by a control PROM > Thus the 2 bitmaps align > > The width of the updated region > With the dest we now combine > This determines the edge positions > And the mask we can devine > > A pair of small finite state machines > Shall ensure this runs to time > Control signals thus generating > For the raster op pipeline > > > As regards software, there are 3 common OSes : > > POS, which was the first (PERQ or Pascal OS). It's single-user, and uses > a much modified Pascal as the system language. The POS microcode > implements a modified P-code instruction set (with graphics operations, > etc). > > PNX is PERQ Unix. Loosely System 3 IIRC. It has some kind of windowing > system. > > Accent is a predecessor of Mach (and comes from CMU IIRC). Multitasking, > and supposed to be quite reasonable to use. > > BUT, I use POS most of the time. Reason : It doesn't get in the way if I > want to modify the microcode (something which can only be done at the > 'bare metal' level). Since that's one of the main reasons for using a > PERQ (if I want a unix box I've got plenty of others), I stick to POS. > > -tony -- Mike McCauley mikem@open.com.au Open System Consultants Pty. Ltd Unix, Perl, Motif, C++, WWW 24 Bateman St Hampton, VIC 3188 Australia http://www.open.com.au Phone +61 3 9598-0985 Fax +61 3 9598-0955 Radiator: the most portable, flexible and configurable RADIUS server anywhere. SQL, proxy, DBM, files, LDAP, NIS+, password, NT, Emerald, Platypus, Freeside, TACACS+, PAM, external, Active Directory etc etc on Unix, Win95/8, 2000, NT, MacOS 9, MacOS X From red at bears.org Wed Oct 24 21:15:58 2001 From: red at bears.org (r. 'bear' stricklin) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:59 2005 Subject: macintosh analogue board reconditioning Message-ID: Howdy to the list (and especially to Tony)... I have a Macintosh 512K I would like to use to demonstrate certain UI principles (okay, and also to play Dark Castle). The display hasn't worked properly since I got it though. In an attempt to stabilize the image, I pulled off the insulating fibreboard covering the sweep board, and looked for bad solder joints to fix. The problem is I don't know what a bad solder joint looks like aside from 'dull', and none of the joints look particularly 'dull' to me. I reflowed a few joints randomly, with no clear sense of what I was doing or where particularly to focus my attentions. Predictably it did not change the behaviour of the image on the display noticeably. I just in the last few minutes switched the machine on to photograph the display for your expert appraisals, and found that its behaviour has changed since it has sat. Now when I switch it on the internal speaker makes a repeated popping. I'm guessing the power supply is resetting itself continuously for whatever unknown reason. I could use some guidance repairing this fault. What's my first step? Tony, I'm a module swapper because that's what I know, and usually the problems I have are in software anyway. I'm handy with a soldering iron, though, and I'm showing a willingness to learn something new. Help! ok r. From foo at siconic.com Wed Oct 24 21:36:27 2001 From: foo at siconic.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:59 2005 Subject: Reading non-PC format floppies In-Reply-To: <925.697T1650T10145407optimus@canit.se> Message-ID: On 24 Oct 2001, Iggy Drougge wrote: > Go to hell, Ismail. Thanks! :) Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org From foo at siconic.com Wed Oct 24 21:40:39 2001 From: foo at siconic.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:59 2005 Subject: value of classic DEC machines? In-Reply-To: <030e01c15cd1$276475e0$3a92a8c0@MAGGIE> Message-ID: On Wed, 24 Oct 2001, Heinz Wolter wrote: > But that's life. If I just paid 4k$ for a machine that will make me > happy, should I be upset to hear that someone else picked one up for > free? It doesn't make the free machine worth 4k$ (maybe to someone), > but it also doesn't make the 4k$ machine worthless. We should not be > upset to see people put prices on these machines; though it might make > some reluctant to give them away for free... Everything has some value to some person. What has bugged me, and this community as a whole, for the past several years is the inflation in pricing caused by eBay. I'm sure everyone here at least once heard the words, "...but I can get $X for it on eBay". Luckily, some manner of salvation is on its way in the form of a price guide. No, I'm not writing it, but the person who is will make it known very soon. Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org From edick at idcomm.com Wed Oct 24 22:12:56 2001 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:59 2005 Subject: What people "should" know References: Message-ID: <001101c15d02$f1955ce0$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> The practice of generating a sequence of pulses with one-shots is the principal sin against which those in power began to rail in the '80's, demanding that all events be driven from a single primary oscillator. I'm quite comfortable that one might want to use an analog delay for a single, isolated, and both infrequently and irregularly occurring event. I personally prefer to use a self-inhibiting counter chain that's cleared by the "trigger" event to do that sort of thing, but I don't do it often. In the same time period that one-shots became anathema to respectable circuit design, it became a common mandate that all circuitry in a subsystem had to be synchronous. In some cases that meant the one-shot was replaced by a self-inhibiting counter gated with a two-input gate that was buffered with four flipflops (dual rank registered inputs to each input of the gate) and its output synchronized with another flipflop clocked by the global clock, and the output of the counter clocked out via yet another likewise globally clocked flipflop. At the time it was a lot of expensive (because it had to be fast) logic, just to ensure the precise synchronization of a pulse that really didn't matter if it varied over 20% of its period and jittered by 10-20 clocks either way. Nowadays nobody gives it a second thought, since a hundred registers more or less in an FPGA cost essentially nothing and they're all nearly infinitely fast. We're heading for a time when registers are packaged by the billion and the only real issue in synchronous logic design is the clock skew. Things change ... Dick ----- Original Message ----- From: "Tony Duell" To: Sent: Wednesday, October 24, 2001 7:09 PM Subject: Re: What people "should" know > > > > That's why it's been common practice to fire anyone who uses one-shots > > (monostables) for anything. I personally believe it should go beyond that, in > > When I was a postgrad at Bristol University, I worked in the first year > physics lab. I actually refused to teach the electronics practical about > monostables, and replaced it by one of my own on state machines (I don't > know if the powers-that-be ever found out I was doing this :-)). > > My view is that monostables have their place. I've used them. For example > I wanted to flash an LED briefly when a certain I/O port was accessed (as > part of a hard disk activity light on this PC). Stretching the decoded > I/O strobe with a monostable was a sensible thing to do. Nobody cares how > long the LED is actually on for, only that it's a visible flash. > > BUT, I strongly disaprove of teaching monostables. By the time you know > enought about electronics to design with them correctly you also know > enough electronics to design monostables from scratch without me telling > you how to do it. > > Bad designers use them everywhere to generate sequences of pulses, etc. A > job which should be done with a state machine. > > > that the perpetartor of such a heinous crim should be barred from asserting his > > credentials as a circuit designer for a short period, of, say, 10 decades. > > Ah, so that's why I can't claim to be a circuit designer. I've > used a monostable more recently than 100 years ago. > > -tony > > From edick at idcomm.com Wed Oct 24 22:19:56 2001 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:59 2005 Subject: What people "should" know References: <010501c15cf5$3aa37ba0$a1ef9a8d@ajp166> Message-ID: <001701c15d03$ebcc3bc0$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> I've never been happy with the digital one-shots. The analog ones start more or less right away, but end when they time out, and that depends on component variation and system power supply noise. The digital ones start when they're good and ready and end a precise amount of time later. Until we get everything to run from femtosecond clocks, presuming that a femtosecond will be insignificant, and don't mind that the desired delay requires 100 bit-long ripple counters, there'll always be the debate. Now that passives cost more than registers, it will probably favor the digital types, though. Dick ----- Original Message ----- From: "ajp166" To: Sent: Wednesday, October 24, 2001 7:34 PM Subject: Re: What people "should" know > Here here! One-shots are fine for pule shortening or stretching > so long as it's non-critical. > > Worst abuse, Altair 8800 front pannel. > and maybe the second-worst is the ALTAIR CPU. > > One of the best designs that use a oneshot was the PERCOM > Cassette board, it was a digitial oneshot and predictable. > If its period was predictable, how did one predict when it started? > > Allison > > -----Original Message----- > From: Richard Erlacher > To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org > Date: Wednesday, October 24, 2001 9:12 PM > Subject: Re: What people "should" know > > > >That's why it's been common practice to fire anyone who uses one-shots > >(monostables) for anything. I personally believe it should go beyond > that, in > >that the perpetartor of such a heinous crim should be barred from > asserting his > >credentials as a circuit designer for a short period, of, say, 10 > decades. > > > From acme_ent at bellsouth.net Wed Oct 24 22:39:18 2001 From: acme_ent at bellsouth.net (Glen Goodwin) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:59 2005 Subject: HH8899 eecchhoo Message-ID: <20011025034105.SSSC8667.imf00bis.bellsouth.net@thegoodw> I was recently given a Heathkit H89 with all three distribution disks. The system boots CP/M 2.2, looks for a configuration file, doesn't find it on the write-protected boot disk, and initiates a setup program. The setup utility offers a "standard" configuration, or I can display settings for all of the physical and logical devices, and change those settings. Upon exiting the setup program, the result is always the same: all keyboard input produces double characters on the screen. I don't see anything in the setup utility pertaining to local echo. What am I missing here? Glen Goodwin 0/0 From cisin at xenosoft.com Wed Oct 24 22:41:55 2001 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin (XenoSoft)) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:59 2005 Subject: Reading non-PC format floppies In-Reply-To: Message-ID: I think that it is up to Tony, and nobody else, to decide how offended he should be by flames that say that he is competent as a programmer. From mythtech at Mac.com Wed Oct 24 22:42:48 2001 From: mythtech at Mac.com (Chris) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:00 2005 Subject: macintosh analogue board reconditioning Message-ID: >I just in the last few minutes switched the machine on to photograph the >display for your expert appraisals, and found that its behaviour has >changed since it has sat. Now when I switch it on the internal speaker >makes a repeated popping. I'm guessing the power supply is resetting >itself continuously for whatever unknown reason. In the pre SE analog boards (128, 512, 512ke, Plus... they all used essentially the same board), there were a few common problems. One was a cracked solder joint on the main power feed (?). I think its location was "J1", if I remember correctly. The joint looked broken, in that the pin sticking thru the back side would have a blob of solder around it that would have a crack in it, and possibly be seperated from the board. If I remember right, it was a red cable in a group of cables, located kind of in the center of the board. Another common problem was a bad high freq capacitor. It was a large capacitor located near the top of the analog board. I think it might have been the only large cap up there. Unfortuantly, it didn't tend to show any damage to a visual inspection. I can get specs on the cap and location when I am at work tomorrow. The final common problem was a bad diode near the bottom of the board. When it was bad, the machine would make a "flup flup flup" kind of noise when you try to turn it on (Ah HAH... sounds like what you might have). Again, it showed no signs of damage toa visual inspection, but would test bad. And again, I can get specs on it when I get to work tomorrow. An ever so handy book for fixing these problems is "The Dead Mac Scrolls", but good luck finding a copy, I think it has been out of print for some time (although, there may be an updated version, I just tend to doubt it will cover the old units). I happen to have a copy, and would be more than happy to skim thru it and work with you to find the problems and repair them. I will email again tomorrow with better details of where to check and what to test. -chris From foo at siconic.com Wed Oct 24 22:59:02 2001 From: foo at siconic.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:00 2005 Subject: HH8899 eecchhoo In-Reply-To: <20011025034105.SSSC8667.imf00bis.bellsouth.net@thegoodw> Message-ID: On Wed, 24 Oct 2001, Glen Goodwin wrote: > I was recently given a Heathkit H89 with all three distribution disks. The > system boots CP/M 2.2, looks for a configuration file, doesn't find it on > the write-protected boot disk, and initiates a setup program. > > The setup utility offers a "standard" configuration, or I can display > settings for all of the physical and logical devices, and change those > settings. > > Upon exiting the setup program, the result is always the same: all keyboard > input produces double characters on the screen. I don't see anything in > the setup utility pertaining to local echo. > > What am I missing here? Glen, try changing the appropriate setting to half-duplex (you're most likely in full-duplex mode). Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org From geoffrob at stmarks.pp.catholic.edu.au Thu Oct 25 00:00:23 2001 From: geoffrob at stmarks.pp.catholic.edu.au (Geoff Roberts) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:00 2005 Subject: first step getting VAX 6000-400 booted ... References: <200110250209.f9P29Xg01925@narnia.int.dittman.net> Message-ID: <01a401c15d11$f4b16c20$de2c67cb@helpdesk> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Eric Dittman" To: Sent: Thursday, October 25, 2001 11:39 AM Subject: Re: first step getting VAX 6000-400 booted ... > I'm not Antonio or Allison, but I can answer this question. The "Data Products" > parallel port works with printers with a "Data Products" parallel interface. I've > used a couple of different printers with this interface. It's been a while so I > can't remember the official name of the interface. The printers I used were made > by Data Products and OEMed to other manufacturers (including DEC). Yeah, well if you can ever ID something that will work on here, I'd appreciate it. I have yet to find anything that will. > > CIBCA-B for speaking to HSC's or other CI equipped Vaxen. If you don't have > > a HSC, pull the cards, as some of your error msgs that are confusing the > > issue are coming from there. LEave the cab kit in in case you want to put > > them back later if you get something that speaks CI. (Caveat: If you do you > > MUST have a Star Coupler as well) > > The CI will work with HSJ controllers as well. Yup. (I'm looking for some if anyone knows where to find - cheap.) > I agree that if you don't have > a StarCoupler then you'll want to remove the cards. Also, if you do ever get > CI storage, be careful with the CI cables. They can't be bent beyond a certain > radius or they'll break. The bend radius is illustrated inside the back of my Star Coupler. > Also, if you do get any CI storage (or another node with CI), you may be tempted > to directly connect without a StarCoupler. Some people have gotten this to work, > but it is not recommended and can cause damage. You'll fry something sooner or later. Probably sooner. Cheers Geoff Roberts Computer Systems Manager Saint Mark's College Port Pirie, South Australia geoffrob@stmarks.pp.catholic.edu.au ICQ 1970476 From donm at cts.com Thu Oct 25 00:22:40 2001 From: donm at cts.com (Don Maslin) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:00 2005 Subject: MacOS DHCP Server? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Wed, 24 Oct 2001, Peter C. Wallace wrote: > On Wed, 24 Oct 2001, Chris wrote: > > > >It's easier to find an ethernet card for a > > >Mac II than a localtalk card for a PC > > > > hehehe... I have two of them! (localtalk cards for PCs that is) :-) > > > > -chris > > > > > > > > > > > I've got one I saved for curiosity's sake -- it has a Z80 (64180) and 32K > of RAM on it! > > > Peter Wallace Is a Tangent Technologies "MacBridge" a localtalk card? - don From mark at cs.ualberta.ca Thu Oct 25 00:26:24 2001 From: mark at cs.ualberta.ca (Mark Green) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:00 2005 Subject: ICL PERQ In-Reply-To: from Tony Duell at "Oct 25, 2001 01:41:09 am" Message-ID: <20011025052628Z565113-20435+2802@sunkay.cs.ualberta.ca> > > > > Anyone out there own an ICL Perq? > > No, I don't have 'an' ICL PERQ. I've got 4 of them :-) > > > Ive got one in storage, working last time I looked. Seem to be interesting > > beasts, a small mini with a very early Unix (Release 3), bitmapped display, > > 'puck' pointing device and a primitive graphical interface. Possibly one of > > the first bitmapped display Unixes? > > I belive that PNX (PERQ Unix) was the first Unix to have graphics > operations in the kernel. > It definitely wasn't the first Unix to have graphics in the kernel, but it may have been the first commercial one. A number of research groups modified the V6 kernel to support graphics. This would be around 1975/76, before the PERQ was produced (early 1980s). The University of Toronto V6 version had a considerable amount of graphics code in the kernel, both for vector and raster graphics as well as high level tablet support. The displays supported were produced by Three Rivers, so this may be where the motivation for hte PNX implementation came from. The University of Toronto modifications to V6 were distributed through USENIX, and I believe the PUPS archive may have a copy of it. From geoffrob at stmarks.pp.catholic.edu.au Thu Oct 25 01:32:24 2001 From: geoffrob at stmarks.pp.catholic.edu.au (Geoff Roberts) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:00 2005 Subject: MacOS DHCP Server? References: Message-ID: <02bf01c15d1e$cf5ee7b0$de2c67cb@helpdesk> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Don Maslin" To: "Classic Computer" Sent: Thursday, October 25, 2001 2:52 PM Subject: Re: MacOS DHCP Server? > > > On Wed, 24 Oct 2001, Peter C. Wallace wrote: > > > On Wed, 24 Oct 2001, Chris wrote: > > > > > >It's easier to find an ethernet card for a > > > >Mac II than a localtalk card for a PC > > > > > > hehehe... I have two of them! (localtalk cards for PCs that is) :-) I have something better than either or both. A Webster Multiport/LT. It's an ethernet/Appletalk gateway. Additionally, it does DHCP for Macs on Appletalk or ethernet. Speaks IPX, (My Appletalk Macs have access to my Netware box, and the Netware box queue serves my Laserwriter IIF to the Macs and PC's) IP of course and even appears as a DECNET Node!!! etc etc etc. Came out of a $2 bag of cables someone nabbed at auction, didn't know what the heck it was, and gave it to me. I didn't know either, but I soon did. Ever surf the net on a Mac Classic 2 in glorious B&W with Netscape 1.1? According to their website, US$1900+ (and all the management software is free to download :^) I'm happy...... Cheers Geoff Roberts Computer Systems Manager Saint Mark's College Port Pirie, South Australia geoffrob@stmarks.pp.catholic.edu.au ICQ 1970476 From enrico.badella at softstar.it Thu Oct 25 01:50:04 2001 From: enrico.badella at softstar.it (Enrico Badella) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:00 2005 Subject: ICL PERQ References: Message-ID: <3BD7B61B.F4D40BDF@softstar.it> Tony Duell wrote: > > > > > Anyone out there own an ICL Perq? > > No, I don't have 'an' ICL PERQ. I've got 4 of them :-) I hate you 8-)))) e. ======================================================================== Enrico Badella email: enrico.badella@softstar.it Soft*Star srl eb@vax.cnuce.cnr.it InterNetworking Specialists tel: +39-011-746092 Via Camburzano 9 fax: +39-011-746487 10143 Torino, Italy Wanted, for hobbyist use, any type of PDP and microVAX hardware,software, manuals,schematics,etc. and DEC-10 docs or manuals ========================================================================== From mikeford at socal.rr.com Thu Oct 25 03:14:43 2001 From: mikeford at socal.rr.com (Mike Ford) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:00 2005 Subject: value of classic DEC machines? In-Reply-To: References: <030e01c15cd1$276475e0$3a92a8c0@MAGGIE> Message-ID: >Luckily, some manner of salvation is on its way in the form of a price >guide. No, I'm not writing it, but the person who is will make it known >very soon. Maybe it will make some money for the author, but prices are just too variable and too fast changing for a printed guide to be of much practical use. What I would rather see is a hunters handbook, say 125 pages with the top 500 things to look for, each item getting an average of a 1/4 page for a photo, or maybe a shared photo, with a description and price range. Sell one to every scrapper in the world, and those 500 things become a LOT more available. working title, "How much money did you throw away today?" From r_beaudry at hotmail.com Thu Oct 25 07:19:08 2001 From: r_beaudry at hotmail.com (Rich Beaudry) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:00 2005 Subject: ISA cards for free.. Message-ID: Hello all, There was more demand for some of these than I would have guessed.... Thanks, however, to Sellam's Apple II Random Number Generator (heh -- couldn't resist), the "winners" have been chosen. Unfortunately, I left the list at home, so I'll notify people later today, when I go home for lunch. Still no takers on the Async cards (Tony is correct about the two jumper blocks), and still plenty of floppy controllers. Also, Tony was spot on about the Everex card. The 6116 is in a socket that can also accommodate a larger chip. I'd go with his guess that this is some sort of QIC controller/formatter... It's still up for grabs.... Rich B. "They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety." -- Ben Franklin From jfoust at threedee.com Thu Oct 25 07:51:06 2001 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:00 2005 Subject: value of classic DEC machines? In-Reply-To: References: <030e01c15cd1$276475e0$3a92a8c0@MAGGIE> Message-ID: <4.3.2.7.0.20011025072520.02464680@pc> At 07:40 PM 10/24/01 -0700, Sellam Ismail wrote: >Everything has some value to some person. What has bugged me, and this >community as a whole, for the past several years is the inflation in >pricing caused by eBay. Wow, now you're speaking for the "community as a whole". A quick review of the archives would reveal a number of people who aren't "bugged" by eBay. This is like blaming the Internet for societal woes. The market spoke, and it said, "We need a sanfordandson.com, for there isn't a nation-wide market for the salt-and-pepper shaker collections we were unable to unload at the rummage sale last Saturday." And the market saw that it was good, and that it was one of the few Internet plays where a single site made the most sense. And never mind the Beanie Baby collectors or the baseball card traders, as it turns out there was pent-up unmet demand for national and worldwide trading of old computer bits. And prices crested, and more old crap came out of the closet, and nerds were fulfilled, and prices dropped. All Econ 101 and nothing to lose sleep about. You might as well blame this mailing list or VCF 1.0 for inflated prices due to increased awareness - which leads to demand, which leads to higher prices, which leads to more people searching, which leads to a glut, which leads to lower prices than before. Don't fret about Altair prices - tell me why it's nearly impossible to sell an old 486, but hoo-boy, you can probably rip the old 2x CD-ROM out of it and get $10 on eBay. To me, that's *interesting.* >I'm sure everyone here at least once heard the words, "...but I can get $X >for it on eBay". >Luckily, some manner of salvation is on its way in the form of a price >guide. No, I'm not writing it, but the person who is will make it known >very soon. A price guide to eBay prices? Neat! As an aside, I'm now writing a book about pottery. After writing for and editing computer magazines for years, and contributing to a number of computer books, I'm pleasantly surprised that my first self-published book will be about clay. One of my e-commerce clients, a pottery, has a large following of collectors who've never had a guidebook, so I'm going to write it. Yet even in this backwater collector's realm of one particular company's line of reproduction salt glaze pottery, you can go to eBay and there will be 100 to 200 of their pieces online at any given time. At first, prices changed dramatically. One little ten-year-old 5-inch Santa figurine went for $485. Go figure. But now prices have fallen, and for many pieces, they tend not to be much more than the price you'd find in a dealer's shop. - John From edick at idcomm.com Thu Oct 25 09:17:35 2001 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:00 2005 Subject: value of classic DEC machines? References: Message-ID: <001801c15d5f$cb57f4e0$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> Aside from an occasional spike here and there, I'm not seeing this price inflation. I find that people wanting to sell their goods list them and people willing to bid do so. The prices compare favorably (from the buyer's standpoint) with what's found in the misc.forsale.xxxxxx newsgroups. I've sold very little on eBay, but have bought quite a number of items, all at prices well below "market," whatever that means. I've been frustrated a number of times, but that was because someone else wanted something more than I did. On occasion, I've lost a bidding contest by only a dollar or two, but, often enough, I've ended up in the situation wherein I have bid more than I wanted, just to win, and still paid less than I'd have had to pay locally, including taxes, etc. You can complain, I guess, but it won't do any good. A nationally advertised internet auction puts an item in front of about as broad a market as one could want, and that will bring the highest prices, for sure, but it will not force anyone to pay more than they want to. That's why I advise folks wanting to sell something they don't know how to price to go to eBay and check the "completed items" prices. The occasional spike will stand out, and the ridiculous "asking" prices will stand out in the form of no-bid auctions. I have to say, I've not been treated badly, overall, on the internet auctions. Of course, I don't generally bid before I know what something I can buy elsewhere costs. I also don't bid until I know what similar items have auctioned for in the past. I think the latter is the way to find out what something is "worth" rather than trusting one's "gut" feeling. Dick ----- Original Message ----- From: "Sellam Ismail" To: Sent: Wednesday, October 24, 2001 8:40 PM Subject: Re: value of classic DEC machines? > On Wed, 24 Oct 2001, Heinz Wolter wrote: > > > But that's life. If I just paid 4k$ for a machine that will make me > > happy, should I be upset to hear that someone else picked one up for > > free? It doesn't make the free machine worth 4k$ (maybe to someone), > > but it also doesn't make the 4k$ machine worthless. We should not be > > upset to see people put prices on these machines; though it might make > > some reluctant to give them away for free... > > Everything has some value to some person. What has bugged me, and this > community as a whole, for the past several years is the inflation in > pricing caused by eBay. > > I'm sure everyone here at least once heard the words, "...but I can get $X > for it on eBay". > > Luckily, some manner of salvation is on its way in the form of a price > guide. No, I'm not writing it, but the person who is will make it known > very soon. > > Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ > International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org > > From rdd at smart.net Thu Oct 25 09:59:37 2001 From: rdd at smart.net (R. D. Davis) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:00 2005 Subject: 3RCC PERQs (was: ICL PERQ) In-Reply-To: <200110251224.HAA05213@opal.tseinc.com> Message-ID: On Thu, 25 Oct 2001, Mike McCauley Anyone have more info or history? http://www.rddavis.org/rdd/PERQ.html -- Copyright (C) 2001 R. D. Davis The difference between humans & other animals: All Rights Reserved an unnatural belief that we're above Nature & rdd@rddavis.net 410-744-4900 her other creatures, using dogma to justify such http://www.rddavis.net beliefs and to justify much human cruelty. From msell at ontimesupport.com Thu Oct 25 09:49:35 2001 From: msell at ontimesupport.com (Matthew Sell) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:00 2005 Subject: value of classic DEC machines? In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.0.20011025072520.02464680@pc> References: <030e01c15cd1$276475e0$3a92a8c0@MAGGIE> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20011025092926.0295c8c8@127.0.0.1> As an enthusiast of various hobbies, classic computing included, I've found that the advent of E-Bay has actually created a few benefits: 1) The word gets out that "such-and-such" is a collectable item, thus making it worth more than garbage, and somebody who otherwise might have thrown that TRS-80 Model 4 in the dumpster is actually selling to somebody who will preserve and use it. 2) Prices tend to stabilize somewhat, as everyone gets a feel for supply and demand of a certain item. There are always exceptions, but generally everyone involved gets more of a feeling for what something is worth. 3) Single listing source of obscure items. Sometimes it's worth paying a little extra to just get that hard-to-find item from an E-Bay seller quickly, rather than dig through a bunch of warehouses looking for that elusive item. That takes the fun and excitement out of digging and discovering, but maybe you need that last piece for your collection, or a part to fix your prized piece. In my other hobby of restoring coin-operated arcade games, I've found E-Bay to be an invaluable resource. It helps me find out what people are willing to pay for a game, thus setting a pricing range (usually at the upper limit). It also makes the old game operators think twice before carting another load of dead games to the landfill. Some games are worth something, some are not, but most operators will now think twice before junking them. As more people get involved in a hobby, the demand for items relating to that hobby increases. It's a fact of life. Anyone see any old Lionel trains at a garage sale recently? I doubt it. The "I found an N&W J-class for $25 at a garage sale" days are long gone. Those days were long gone before the home computer user even heard of the Internet. The value of that particular engine was $1000 in the late eighties. As more people are exposed to this hobby, from your individual web pages, newsgroups, mailing lists, and yes, E-Bay, prices for this hobby will rise. Get used to it, and take a small measure in comfort in the fact that fewer classic computers will be junked as more people see value in them. - Matt At 07:51 AM 10/25/2001 -0500, you wrote: >At 07:40 PM 10/24/01 -0700, Sellam Ismail wrote: > >Everything has some value to some person. What has bugged me, and this > >community as a whole, for the past several years is the inflation in > >pricing caused by eBay. > >Wow, now you're speaking for the "community as a whole". > >A quick review of the archives would reveal a number of >people who aren't "bugged" by eBay. > >This is like blaming the Internet for societal woes. >The market spoke, and it said, "We need a sanfordandson.com, >for there isn't a nation-wide market for the salt-and-pepper >shaker collections we were unable to unload at the >rummage sale last Saturday." And the market saw that it >was good, and that it was one of the few Internet plays >where a single site made the most sense. > >And never mind the Beanie Baby collectors or the baseball >card traders, as it turns out there was pent-up unmet >demand for national and worldwide trading of old computer bits. > >And prices crested, and more old crap came out of the closet, >and nerds were fulfilled, and prices dropped. All Econ 101 >and nothing to lose sleep about. You might as well blame >this mailing list or VCF 1.0 for inflated prices due to increased >awareness - which leads to demand, which leads to higher prices, >which leads to more people searching, which leads to a glut, >which leads to lower prices than before. > >Don't fret about Altair prices - tell me why it's nearly >impossible to sell an old 486, but hoo-boy, you can probably >rip the old 2x CD-ROM out of it and get $10 on eBay. >To me, that's *interesting.* > > >I'm sure everyone here at least once heard the words, "...but I can get $X > >for it on eBay". > >Luckily, some manner of salvation is on its way in the form of a price > >guide. No, I'm not writing it, but the person who is will make it known > >very soon. > >A price guide to eBay prices? Neat! > >As an aside, I'm now writing a book about pottery. After >writing for and editing computer magazines for years, and >contributing to a number of computer books, I'm pleasantly >surprised that my first self-published book will be about >clay. One of my e-commerce clients, a pottery, has a large >following of collectors who've never had a guidebook, so >I'm going to write it. > >Yet even in this backwater collector's realm of one particular >company's line of reproduction salt glaze pottery, you can >go to eBay and there will be 100 to 200 of their pieces online at >any given time. At first, prices changed dramatically. >One little ten-year-old 5-inch Santa figurine went for $485. >Go figure. But now prices have fallen, and for many pieces, >they tend not to be much more than the price you'd find in >a dealer's shop. > >- John Matthew Sell Programmer On Time Support, Inc. www.ontimesupport.com (281) 296-6066 Join the Metrology Software discussion group METLIST! http://www.ontimesupport.com/cgi-bin/mojo/mojo.cgi "One World, One Web, One Program" - Microsoft Promotional Ad "Ein Volk, Ein Reich, Ein Fuhrer" - Adolf Hitler Many thanks for this tagline to a fellow RGVAC'er... From dittman at dittman.net Thu Oct 25 10:02:16 2001 From: dittman at dittman.net (Eric Dittman) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:00 2005 Subject: VLB SCSI? Message-ID: <200110251502.f9PF2Gj03229@narnia.int.dittman.net> Does anyone have a VLB system that needs a VLB SCSI controllers? I have an Ultrastor 34F and an Adaptec 2842 free, just pay shipping. Otherwise, I'll just toss them. -- Eric Dittman dittman@dittman.net Check out the DEC Enthusiasts Club at http://www.dittman.net/ From DAW at yalepress3.unipress.yale.edu Thu Oct 25 10:22:09 2001 From: DAW at yalepress3.unipress.yale.edu (David Woyciesjes) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:00 2005 Subject: MacOS DHCP Server? Message-ID: <9011A52E011ED311B4280004AC1BA615014671BC@yalepress3.unipress.yale.edu> !> > Chris wrote: !> > > >It's easier to find an ethernet card for a !> > > >Mac II than a localtalk card for a PC !> > > !> !> Peter C. Wallace wrote: !> > > hehehe... I have two of them! (localtalk cards for PCs !> > > that is) :-) ! !I have something better than either or both. A Webster Multiport/LT. !It's an ethernet/Appletalk gateway. !Additionally, it does DHCP for Macs on Appletalk or ethernet. !Speaks IPX, (My Appletalk Macs have access to my Netware box, and the !Netware box !queue serves my Laserwriter IIF to the Macs and PC's) ! IP of course and even appears as a DECNET Node!!! etc etc etc. ! !Came out of a $2 bag of cables someone nabbed at auction, !didn't know what the heck it was, and gave it to me. I didn't !know either, but I soon did. Ever surf the net on a Mac Classic !2 in glorious B&W with Netscape 1.1? ! !According to their website, US$1900+ (and all the management !software is free to download :^) !I'm happy...... ! !Cheers ! !Geoff Roberts That's basically all I'm looking to do... I knew I could've used NetBSD, but I figured I'd keep the routing Mac in pretty much the shape it was (could've been?) sold in. That is, MacOS 7.6.1 or some such. Historical purposes, I guess you could call it. Also hoping to keep this as cheap as possible. My budget for this isn't all that big.. :-/ --- David A Woyciesjes --- C & IS Support Specialist --- Yale University Press --- mailto:david.woyciesjes@yale.edu --- (203) 432-0953 --- ICQ # - 905818 From dittman at dittman.net Thu Oct 25 10:29:14 2001 From: dittman at dittman.net (Eric Dittman) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:00 2005 Subject: VLB SCSI? Message-ID: <200110251529.f9PFTE003375@narnia.int.dittman.net> > Does anyone have a VLB system that needs a VLB SCSI controllers? > I have an Ultrastor 34F and an Adaptec 2842 free, just pay shipping. > Otherwise, I'll just toss them. That was fast. They've been claimed. Thanks. -- Eric Dittman dittman@dittman.net Check out the DEC Enthusiasts Club at http://www.dittman.net/ From mrbill at mrbill.net Thu Oct 25 11:19:07 2001 From: mrbill at mrbill.net (Bill Bradford) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:00 2005 Subject: MacOS DHCP Server? In-Reply-To: <9011A52E011ED311B4280004AC1BA615014671B5@yalepress3.unipress.yale.edu> References: <9011A52E011ED311B4280004AC1BA615014671B5@yalepress3.unipress.yale.edu> Message-ID: <20011025111907.R2371@mrbill.net> On Wed, Oct 24, 2001 at 01:41:04PM -0400, David Woyciesjes wrote: > Does anyone know if there is a free/share/money-ware program that > can turn a Mac into a DHCP server? For use on an older 68k Mac... NetBSD. Bill -- Bill Bradford mrbill@mrbill.net Austin, TX From Lee.Davison at merlincommunications.com Thu Oct 25 11:37:46 2001 From: Lee.Davison at merlincommunications.com (Davison, Lee) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:00 2005 Subject: What people "should" know Message-ID: <707AA588EE28D311BCD50090276D7D0002146DE0@BUSH02> > There is, I'm sure, a place for one-shots, but they've been abused so > often it's > hard to remember what that might have been. > Power on reset - before the clocks have safely started. PONG, an inspired use of monostables. Watchdog timers, sync fail detectors, three shot lockouts .... Lee. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- ---- This email is intended only for the above named addressee(s). The information contained in this email may contain information which is confidential. The views expressed in this email are personal to the sender and do not in any way reflect the views of the company. If you have received this email and you are not a named addressee please delete it from your system and contact Merlin Communications International IT Department on +44 20 7344 5888. _____________________________________________________________________ This message has been checked for all known viruses by Star Internet delivered through the MessageLabs Virus Scanning Service. For further information visit http://www.star.net.uk/stats.asp or alternatively call Star Internet for details on the Virus Scanning Service. From gunther at aurora.regenstrief.org Thu Oct 25 11:51:55 2001 From: gunther at aurora.regenstrief.org (Gunther Schadow) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:00 2005 Subject: first step getting VAX 6000-400 booted ... References: <004c01c15cf6$e59ce720$de2c67cb@helpdesk> Message-ID: <3BD8432B.575D11E5@aurora.regenstrief.org> Thanks everyone! your posts were all very informative. I took home the following points: - my RA90 drive is not responding to the host, this is probably because the drive number isn't set properly. I get "0000" in the display but I should set it to "1" because "0000" means "unspecified". Is that right? The cabling swap issue is probably not the cause, unless there are two kinds of cables. Geoff has backplane->bulkhead->drive woking fine. Seems like backplane->bulkhead->SA800-bulkhead->drive will also work. May be the bulkheads are doing the swapping,not the cables? So there is hope. - I got my TU81+ powered up and load tapes etc. The tape excerciser comes back with E06 though, I guess that means I need to do a bit more scrubbing and cleaning? Anyway, I get to put a tape online. Still, no MU other than MUC6 (TK) is detected by the VMS backup. It also comes back with an I/O error if I try to boot from TU directly. Do I have to set a unit number on the TU81 as well? - My CIBCA problems are all explained simply because it's not terminated to the star coupler. I have a star coupler and HSC and everything for a serious cluster, just not all in the basement yet. Will do that in time. For now CIBCA card set is out. (BTW: do I have to screw those caps over all unused connections on the star coupler?) - For ULTRIX and perhaps even VMS 6.1 I may need to remove two of my processors. - The DMB32 parallel printer is not a Centronics interface. But I may actually have a printer to go with it. A BIG thing, not heavy but taking up precious space if I put it into my basement. - MOP booting Ultrix may not be as easy as I think. Perhaps the VMS path is the best for now. Once I have control over all devices, I can try copying the TK boot tape to TU if that has a chance of better success. regards -Gunther -- Gunther_Schadow-------------------------------http://aurora.rg.iupui.edu Regenstrief Institute for Health Care 1050 Wishard Blvd., Indianapolis IN 46202, Phone: (317) 630 7960 schadow@aurora.rg.iupui.edu------------------#include From mikeford at socal.rr.com Thu Oct 25 12:08:52 2001 From: mikeford at socal.rr.com (Mike Ford) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:00 2005 Subject: Periodic rants on eBay In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20011025092926.0295c8c8@127.0.0.1> References: <4.3.2.7.0.20011025072520.02464680@pc> <030e01c15cd1$276475e0$3a92a8c0@MAGGIE> Message-ID: Love it or hate it, eBay is the most credible source of pricing or value that I know of. Last night, really the past week, I have been digging deeply into the purchases I have made in the last few months, and I found a really cool looking box, HP SureStore 12000e. 10 minutes on the HP site, and I knew all about the buttons on the front, but not what the damn thing WAS. 2 minutes on eBay and I knew I had a nice 48 GB DDS tape array storage thing worth $175 or so, that had drivers for windows etc. that I could download for free (and had the links to do so in the eBay ad). From erd_6502 at yahoo.com Thu Oct 25 12:14:47 2001 From: erd_6502 at yahoo.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:00 2005 Subject: first step getting VAX 6000-400 booted ... In-Reply-To: <3BD8432B.575D11E5@aurora.regenstrief.org> Message-ID: <20011025171447.57432.qmail@web20104.mail.yahoo.com> --- Gunther Schadow wrote: > - The DMB32 parallel printer is not a Centronics interface. But > I may actually have a printer to go with it. A BIG thing, not > heavy but taking up precious space if I put it into my > basement. We used to use an LP25 on our DMF32 (Unibus ancestor of the DMB32). It was a Dataproduct printer with a DEC badge. I do recall seeing a simple circuit somewhere involving an inverter or two to attach a Centronics printer to an LPV11. It shouldn't be a complicated matter to examine which signals on the DP port are low-true and which ones are low-true on a "Centronics" port and deduce which handshaking lines need inverted. -ethan __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Make a great connection at Yahoo! Personals. http://personals.yahoo.com From george at racsys.rt.rain.com Thu Oct 25 12:11:25 2001 From: george at racsys.rt.rain.com (George Leo Rachor Jr.) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:00 2005 Subject: HH8899 eecchhoo In-Reply-To: <20011025034105.SSSC8667.imf00bis.bellsouth.net@thegoodw> Message-ID: Let us know the resolution on this... I would have thought the proper setting would be Full-duplex... not Half-Duplex... George Rachor ========================================================= George L. Rachor Jr. george@rachors.com Hillsboro, Oregon http://rachors.com United States of America Amateur Radio : KD7DCX On Wed, 24 Oct 2001, Glen Goodwin wrote: > I was recently given a Heathkit H89 with all three distribution disks. The > system boots CP/M 2.2, looks for a configuration file, doesn't find it on > the write-protected boot disk, and initiates a setup program. > > The setup utility offers a "standard" configuration, or I can display > settings for all of the physical and logical devices, and change those > settings. > > Upon exiting the setup program, the result is always the same: all keyboard > input produces double characters on the screen. I don't see anything in > the setup utility pertaining to local echo. > > What am I missing here? > > Glen Goodwin > 0/0 > > From erd_6502 at yahoo.com Thu Oct 25 12:25:58 2001 From: erd_6502 at yahoo.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:00 2005 Subject: 2.88 MB floppy drive, scsi? In-Reply-To: <949.684T1800T2365653optimus@canit.se> Message-ID: <20011025172558.67110.qmail@web20102.mail.yahoo.com> --- Iggy Drougge wrote: > That was also done by good old cost-cutting Commodore in order to add HD > capabilities to the Amiga 3000 and 4000. They ordered a batch of > custom-made drives which would step down to half the rate when using HD > floppies, so that the same old floppy controller could keep up. But the big benefit was that it worked with _all_ Amigas, not just the A3000 and A4000. I doubt many people used an external 1.44Mb floppy drive with an A1000, but it works. > Which makes using Commodore's HD drives nearly unbearably slow, I might > add. That _is_ too true. :-( Still, I bought one for each A3000 I had, and my A4000 came with one. They were *expensive* too - about $100 USD, IIRC. -ethan __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Make a great connection at Yahoo! Personals. http://personals.yahoo.com From erd_6502 at yahoo.com Thu Oct 25 12:30:08 2001 From: erd_6502 at yahoo.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:00 2005 Subject: IBM ROM BASIC or lack thereof In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20011025173008.48289.qmail@web20107.mail.yahoo.com> --- Tony Duell wrote: > On several occasions I asked for 'An ST506 interface hard disk of about > 50Mbytes' and had to explain what I meant... Yes, but how many heads did it have? Was it an ST506-interface drive or an ST412-interface drive? It's being pedantic, but there is a single-line difference. One could imagine a controller that could handle a real ST-506 but not a real ST-412 drive. AFAIK, by the time PCs supported the ST-225, it was a moot point, but pre-PeeCee controllers might not be happy. -ethan __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Make a great connection at Yahoo! Personals. http://personals.yahoo.com From DAW at yalepress3.unipress.yale.edu Thu Oct 25 12:46:10 2001 From: DAW at yalepress3.unipress.yale.edu (David Woyciesjes) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:00 2005 Subject: Classic cmp Message-ID: <9011A52E011ED311B4280004AC1BA615014671BD@yalepress3.unipress.yale.edu> -----Original Message----- From: Frederick Scholl [mailto:freds@monarch-info.com] HI, I just subscribed to classiccmp.org, but I'm not sure how to use this. I get mail messages now, but how do I respond on the same thread of conversation? Someone in your thread mentioned LocalTalk cards and I am interested in buying TOPS for the PC if anyone has that. It's quite simple... Just hit the "Reply" button in your e-mail reader, and type away. Make sure the address "classiccmp@classiccmp.org" is in the "To:" field. Should be automatic... Someone here once said, "The only stupid question is the one not asked" or something like that... --- David A Woyciesjes --- C & IS Support Specialist --- Yale University Press --- mailto:david.woyciesjes@yale.edu --- (203) 432-0953 --- ICQ # - 905818 From korpela at ssl.berkeley.edu Thu Oct 25 12:43:58 2001 From: korpela at ssl.berkeley.edu (Eric J. Korpela) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:00 2005 Subject: What people "should" know In-Reply-To: <707AA588EE28D311BCD50090276D7D0002146DE0@BUSH02> from "Davison, Lee" at "Oct 25, 2001 05:37:46 pm" Message-ID: <200110251743.KAA26613@ellie.ssl.berkeley.edu> > > > There is, I'm sure, a place for one-shots, but they've been abused so > > often it's > > hard to remember what that might have been. > > > Power on reset - before the clocks have safely started. PONG, an inspired > use > of monostables. Watchdog timers, sync fail detectors, three shot lockouts > .... They are also quite useful anywhere that noise from a clock would cause problems. Eric From freds at monarch-info.com Thu Oct 25 13:21:44 2001 From: freds at monarch-info.com (Frederick Scholl) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:00 2005 Subject: MacOS DHCP Server? References: <9011A52E011ED311B4280004AC1BA615014671BC@yalepress3.unipress.yale.edu> Message-ID: <023501c15d81$e6f27be0$8201a8c0@onsiteaccess.net> Speaking of LocalTalk, does anyone have TOPS software for PCs? Fred Scholl ----- Original Message ----- From: David Woyciesjes To: Sent: Thursday, October 25, 2001 11:22 AM Subject: RE: MacOS DHCP Server? > !> > Chris wrote: > !> > > >It's easier to find an ethernet card for a > !> > > >Mac II than a localtalk card for a PC > !> > > > !> > !> Peter C. Wallace wrote: > !> > > hehehe... I have two of them! (localtalk cards for PCs > !> > > that is) :-) > ! > !I have something better than either or both. A Webster Multiport/LT. > !It's an ethernet/Appletalk gateway. > !Additionally, it does DHCP for Macs on Appletalk or ethernet. > !Speaks IPX, (My Appletalk Macs have access to my Netware box, and the > !Netware box > !queue serves my Laserwriter IIF to the Macs and PC's) > ! IP of course and even appears as a DECNET Node!!! etc etc etc. > ! > !Came out of a $2 bag of cables someone nabbed at auction, > !didn't know what the heck it was, and gave it to me. I didn't > !know either, but I soon did. Ever surf the net on a Mac Classic > !2 in glorious B&W with Netscape 1.1? > ! > !According to their website, US$1900+ (and all the management > !software is free to download :^) > !I'm happy...... > ! > !Cheers > ! > !Geoff Roberts > > That's basically all I'm looking to do... I knew I could've used > NetBSD, but I figured I'd keep the routing Mac in pretty much the shape it > was (could've been?) sold in. That is, MacOS 7.6.1 or some such. Historical > purposes, I guess you could call it. > Also hoping to keep this as cheap as possible. My budget for this > isn't all that big.. :-/ > > --- David A Woyciesjes > --- C & IS Support Specialist > --- Yale University Press > --- mailto:david.woyciesjes@yale.edu > --- (203) 432-0953 > --- ICQ # - 905818 > From dittman at dittman.net Thu Oct 25 13:16:58 2001 From: dittman at dittman.net (Eric Dittman) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:00 2005 Subject: first step getting VAX 6000-400 booted ... In-Reply-To: from "Ethan Dicks" at Oct 25, 2001 10:14:47 AM Message-ID: <200110251816.f9PIGwL03893@narnia.int.dittman.net> > --- Gunther Schadow wrote: > > - The DMB32 parallel printer is not a Centronics interface. But > > I may actually have a printer to go with it. A BIG thing, not > > heavy but taking up precious space if I put it into my > > basement. > > We used to use an LP25 on our DMF32 (Unibus ancestor of the DMB32). It > was a Dataproduct printer with a DEC badge. I do recall seeing a simple > circuit somewhere involving an inverter or two to attach a Centronics > printer to an LPV11. It shouldn't be a complicated matter to examine > which signals on the DP port are low-true and which ones are low-true > on a "Centronics" port and deduce which handshaking lines need inverted. I seem to remember there was a converter (sold by Black Box, IIRC), but the chances of finding one is pretty slim. You'd be more likely to find a printer. Building your own converter would be the easiest as Ethan suggests. If you can find the manual on the DMB32 it should have the pinouts for the cable, which will make building a converter even easier. -- Eric Dittman dittman@dittman.net Check out the DEC Enthusiasts Club at http://www.dittman.net/ From dittman at dittman.net Thu Oct 25 13:22:52 2001 From: dittman at dittman.net (Eric Dittman) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:00 2005 Subject: Periodic rants on eBay In-Reply-To: from "Mike Ford" at Oct 25, 2001 10:08:52 AM Message-ID: <200110251822.f9PIMqF03915@narnia.int.dittman.net> > Love it or hate it, eBay is the most credible source of pricing or value > that I know of. Last night, really the past week, I have been digging > deeply into the purchases I have made in the last few months, and I found a > really cool looking box, HP SureStore 12000e. 10 minutes on the HP site, > and I knew all about the buttons on the front, but not what the damn thing > WAS. 2 minutes on eBay and I knew I had a nice 48 GB DDS tape array storage > thing worth $175 or so, that had drivers for windows etc. that I could > download for free (and had the links to do so in the eBay ad). Love it or hate it? I think love-hate is what most people experience. I've found some great deals on eBay, esp. since they added the BuyItNow option. I got an Intraserver dual channel U2W SCSI controller that had the VMS-enabled ROMs for $75 that way. I also got a TZ867 that I upgraded to a DLT4700 for $250 when the product wouldn't sell due to the seller's shipping costs (the seller is local and I picked the item up; original opening bid was $500). The drive included the library cartridge (usually sell for ~$50.00 alone on eBay and four OpenVMS distributions tapes I added to my library). I also find good deals due to typos or odd categories (such as a TKZ60 drive for $5.00; now all I need is a SCSI 9-track drive to cover the media I need to access). -- Eric Dittman dittman@dittman.net Check out the DEC Enthusiasts Club at http://www.dittman.net/ From foo at siconic.com Thu Oct 25 13:27:44 2001 From: foo at siconic.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:00 2005 Subject: value of classic DEC machines? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Thu, 25 Oct 2001, Mike Ford wrote: > Maybe it will make some money for the author, but prices are just too > variable and too fast changing for a printed guide to be of much > practical use. What I would rather see is a hunters handbook, say 125 > pages with the top 500 things to look for, each item getting an > average of a 1/4 page for a photo, or maybe a shared photo, with a > description and price range. Sell one to every scrapper in the world, > and those 500 things become a LOT more available. The guide I speak of is in the manner of what you describe. Prices are in ranges. The underlying caveat, as with anything, is that actual value can range from "free" to "umpteen gazillion dollars". Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org From d_l_mcd at hotmail.com Thu Oct 25 13:34:01 2001 From: d_l_mcd at hotmail.com (Dan McDonald) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:01 2005 Subject: What Computer is This and Who is This Guy? Message-ID: Here's a picture from 1966 of an IBM computer at the IBM computing center on Manhattan (New York City, New York USA). The text for the photo says that the computer is being used to make a payroll calculation. Visible are 4 big-fridge-sized reel-reel tape devices, the console with operator seated at it, and some other things in the background. What's the computer model? Does anybody know who this guy (operator) is/was? Just a neat photo. It's about a 150k jpg file at this url: http://www.sover.net/~danm/computer_room.jpg _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp From foo at siconic.com Thu Oct 25 13:39:10 2001 From: foo at siconic.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:01 2005 Subject: OT: Re: Periodic rants on eBay In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Thu, 25 Oct 2001, Mike Ford wrote: > Love it or hate it, eBay is the most credible source of pricing or value > that I know of. I find this comment to be INcredible. Are you saying that an ad for a $2,500 TRS-80 Color Computer is "credible"? "But it didn't sell!", you scream. Fine. How about the original Macintosh that went for close to $1,000 because it was "signed on the inside of the case by all the original design team members"? "...credible source of pricing..." I'm sorry that any small comment made about eBay has to erupt into a worthless pro/con debate about it. I don't use eBay and wouldn't care if a big black hole suddenly formed where their servers are co-located. On the other hand, it is the only bright spot in a stock market filled with downward spiraling stock valuations (if you don't count Bayer and other companies that are set to benefit from the current state of chaos). We'll be able to happily consume other people's used crap at inflated prices while we pop Cipro and don gas masks that we were able to buy once we were cleared for entry into the stores with our new National ID cards. Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org From foo at siconic.com Thu Oct 25 13:40:13 2001 From: foo at siconic.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:01 2005 Subject: HH8899 eecchhoo In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Thu, 25 Oct 2001, George Leo Rachor Jr. wrote: > Let us know the resolution on this... > > I would have thought the proper setting would be Full-duplex... > not Half-Duplex... Hmmm, maybe I'm getting my terms crossed. If it's half-duplex, does the terminal compensate by sending out a local echo? Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org From jkaye at isd.net Thu Oct 25 13:50:14 2001 From: jkaye at isd.net (jkaye) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:01 2005 Subject: Altos 586 Message-ID: <3BD85EE6.66D8497B@isd.net> I got an Altos 586 from a friend a while ago, with an external 2400 baud modem and a Wyse (50?) terminal. There were no Unix install disks included. I am looking to reinstall the OS, does anyone know where I could get a copy of the Xenix that it uses? -- Joseph Kaye 1989 Lincoln Mark VII LSC 1995 Ford Aerostar XLT -80HP NOS System -Contemplating Nitrous Install... -B&M AOD Shift Kit -4.0 V6 / Electronic 4wd -Addco Swaybars and Koni Struts -ALL YOUR BASE ARE BELONG TO US From ernestls at home.com Thu Oct 25 14:02:15 2001 From: ernestls at home.com (Ernest) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:01 2005 Subject: Periodic rants on eBay In-Reply-To: Message-ID: -----Original Message----- From: owner-classiccmp@classiccmp.org [mailto:owner-classiccmp@classiccmp.org]On Behalf Of Mike Ford Sent: Thursday, October 25, 2001 10:09 AM To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org Subject: Periodic rants on eBay Love it or hate it, eBay is the most credible source of pricing or value that I know of. Last night, really the past week, I have been digging deeply into the purchases I have made in the last few months, and I found a really cool looking box, HP SureStore 12000e. 10 minutes on the HP site, and I knew all about the buttons on the front, but not what the damn thing WAS. 2 minutes on eBay and I knew I had a nice 48 GB DDS tape array storage thing worth $175 or so, that had drivers for windows etc. that I could download for free (and had the links to do so in the eBay ad). Yes, I agree about ebay being a knowledge base as well as a place to sell. I've learned a lot from browsing through the ads, and it's also a good place to see pictures of items that I'm curious about. Sure, most of the photos are terrible but if all you want to do is see what something looks like, then it's helpful. About pricing though, it gives you a general idea of what something is worth on the open market but it's also very much a hit and miss kind of thing. For example, a while back I saw an Apple 3.5 unidisk drive sell for about $100.00. Suddenly, five more drives appear from various sellers who see that they have a hot item, and in essence the market is then flooded. That causes the price to fall on drives offered after that. So what is the value of one of those drives? Also, the more an items is listed (like an Apple IIe) the better the statistical data becomes. Some will say that the value of an item is exactly what someone will pay for it at a particular time, and that's true but you can also say that generally speaking, an item's approximate value is what people will likely pay for it. An Altair will likely sell for more than $1000 but how much more? If I try to sell an Apple II clone on ebay, one day it will go for $30 and the next it might go for $70.00 depending on who sees it. What is it's approximate value? If I start the auction a $1.00, the bidding might end at $100.00 but if I start it at $30.00, the auction might end at $32.00. I know, I'm rambling again but I've been thinking about ebay strategies lately because I'm about to post a bunch of stuff there. Does anyone have any useful selling tips based on their own experiences -aside from the obvious (photos.) From thompson at mail.athenet.net Thu Oct 25 14:03:26 2001 From: thompson at mail.athenet.net (Paul Thompson) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:01 2005 Subject: first step getting VAX 6000-400 booted ... In-Reply-To: <3BD8432B.575D11E5@aurora.regenstrief.org> Message-ID: On Thu, 25 Oct 2001, Gunther Schadow wrote: > Thanks everyone! > > is out. (BTW: do I have to screw those caps over all unused > connections on the star coupler?) no, if you have them, use them though. -- From edick at idcomm.com Thu Oct 25 14:13:34 2001 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:01 2005 Subject: Altos 586 References: <3BD85EE6.66D8497B@isd.net> Message-ID: <003401c15d89$24684340$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> Are you sure it uses XENIX? I gave one of these to Will Jennings, along with the companion tape drive, a couple of years back. Perhaps he can help you. Dick ----- Original Message ----- From: "jkaye" To: Sent: Thursday, October 25, 2001 12:50 PM Subject: Altos 586 > I got an Altos 586 from a friend a while ago, with an external 2400 baud > modem and a Wyse (50?) terminal. There were no Unix install disks > included. I am looking to reinstall the OS, does anyone know where I > could get a copy of the Xenix that it uses? > > > > -- > Joseph Kaye > > 1989 Lincoln Mark VII LSC 1995 Ford Aerostar XLT > -80HP NOS System -Contemplating Nitrous Install... > -B&M AOD Shift Kit -4.0 V6 / Electronic 4wd > -Addco Swaybars and Koni Struts -ALL YOUR BASE ARE BELONG TO US > > From thompson at mail.athenet.net Thu Oct 25 14:18:55 2001 From: thompson at mail.athenet.net (Paul Thompson) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:01 2005 Subject: OT: Re: Periodic rants on eBay In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Thu, 25 Oct 2001, Sellam Ismail wrote: > I'm sorry that any small comment made about eBay has to erupt into a > worthless pro/con debate about it. Then why not let it pass. -- From jhellige at earthlink.net Thu Oct 25 14:19:45 2001 From: jhellige at earthlink.net (Jeff Hellige) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:01 2005 Subject: Altos 586 In-Reply-To: <3BD85EE6.66D8497B@isd.net> References: <3BD85EE6.66D8497B@isd.net> Message-ID: <01Oct25.153054edt.119054@gateway.mediacen.navy.mil> >I got an Altos 586 from a friend a while ago, with an external 2400 baud >modem and a Wyse (50?) terminal. There were no Unix install disks >included. I am looking to reinstall the OS, does anyone know where I >could get a copy of the Xenix that it uses? I have two tapes that came from an Altos 586T that are supposed to contain a backup of the Xenix for the machine. I believe I still have one of the tape drives for the machine as well, though I did get rid of my 586T a while back. Jeff -- Home of the TRS-80 Model 2000 FAQ File http://www.cchaven.com http://www.geocities.com/siliconvalley/lakes/6757 From vance at ikickass.org Thu Oct 25 14:20:19 2001 From: vance at ikickass.org (One Without Reason) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:01 2005 Subject: What Computer is This and Who is This Guy? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: The CPU cabinets in the back look like the ones for a 7090. The 7090 came out around 1960. Peace... Sridhar On Thu, 25 Oct 2001, Dan McDonald wrote: > Here's a picture from 1966 of an IBM computer at the IBM computing center on > Manhattan (New York City, New York USA). The text for the photo says that > the computer is being used to make a payroll calculation. > > Visible are 4 big-fridge-sized reel-reel tape devices, the console with > operator seated at it, and some other things in the background. > > What's the computer model? Does anybody know who this guy (operator) > is/was? > > Just a neat photo. > > It's about a 150k jpg file at this url: > > http://www.sover.net/~danm/computer_room.jpg > > _________________________________________________________________ > Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp > From ernestls at home.com Thu Oct 25 14:25:31 2001 From: ernestls at home.com (Ernest) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:01 2005 Subject: Periodic rants on eBay In-Reply-To: Message-ID: > >I don't use eBay and wouldn't care if a big black hole suddenly formed >where their servers are co-located. > >On the other hand, it is the only bright spot in a stock market filled >with downward spiraling stock valuations (if you don't count Bayer and >other companies that are set to benefit from the current state of chaos). > >We'll be able to happily consume other people's used crap at inflated >prices while we pop Cipro and don gas masks that we were able to buy once >we were cleared for entry into the stores with our new National ID cards. > >Sellam Ismail Sellam, you're a "hard and cynical man." :) I think that ebay is great for many reasons but the two that matter the most to me are that it matches sellers with buyers, and I can find nearly anything that I'm looking for (within reason) at a fair price. I collect music, books, and old computers. For those items, ebay is hard to beat. It's like the world's biggest garage sale, and the bottom line is that whenever something sells there, it means that items is saved from filling our land fills for at least a little while longer. Besides, how many old computers have been saved from the scrap heap because they were sold on ebay? How many TONS of junk were sold rather than thrown away? People make a little money (rather than none,) UPS makes a bundle of money, and buyers find what they want. What's the problem with that? E. From vance at ikickass.org Thu Oct 25 14:26:09 2001 From: vance at ikickass.org (One Without Reason) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:01 2005 Subject: Altos 586 In-Reply-To: <3BD85EE6.66D8497B@isd.net> Message-ID: I've seen it at abandonware websites. Peace... Sridhar On Thu, 25 Oct 2001, jkaye wrote: > I got an Altos 586 from a friend a while ago, with an external 2400 baud > modem and a Wyse (50?) terminal. There were no Unix install disks > included. I am looking to reinstall the OS, does anyone know where I > could get a copy of the Xenix that it uses? > > > > -- > Joseph Kaye > > 1989 Lincoln Mark VII LSC 1995 Ford Aerostar XLT > -80HP NOS System -Contemplating Nitrous Install... > -B&M AOD Shift Kit -4.0 V6 / Electronic 4wd > -Addco Swaybars and Koni Struts -ALL YOUR BASE ARE BELONG TO US > From SUPRDAVE at aol.com Thu Oct 25 14:25:47 2001 From: SUPRDAVE at aol.com (SUPRDAVE@aol.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:01 2005 Subject: Periodic rants on eBay Message-ID: <139.39a8c13.2909c13b@aol.com> In a message dated 10/25/2001 2:12:40 PM Central Daylight Time, ernestls@home.com writes: << -----Original Message----- From: owner-classiccmp@classiccmp.org [mailto:owner-classiccmp@classiccmp.org]On Behalf Of Mike Ford Sent: Thursday, October 25, 2001 10:09 AM To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org Subject: Periodic rants on eBay Love it or hate it, eBay is the most credible source of pricing or value that I know of. Last night, really the past week, I have been digging deeply into the purchases I have made in the last few months, and I found a really cool looking box, HP SureStore 12000e. 10 minutes on the HP site, and I knew all about the buttons on the front, but not what the damn thing WAS. 2 minutes on eBay and I knew I had a nice 48 GB DDS tape array storage thing worth $175 or so, that had drivers for windows etc. that I could download for free (and had the links to do so in the eBay ad). Yes, I agree about ebay being a knowledge base as well as a place to sell. I've learned a lot from browsing through the ads, and it's also a good place to see pictures of items that I'm curious about. Sure, most of the photos are terrible but if all you want to do is see what something looks like, then it's helpful. About pricing though, it gives you a general idea of what something is worth on the open market but it's also very much a hit and miss kind of thing. For example, a while back I saw an Apple 3.5 unidisk drive sell for about $100.00. Suddenly, five more drives appear from various sellers who see that they have a hot item, and in essence the market is then flooded. That causes the price to fall on drives offered after that. So what is the value of one of those drives? Also, the more an items is listed (like an Apple IIe) the better the statistical data becomes. Some will say that the value of an item is exactly what someone will pay for it at a particular time, and that's true but you can also say that generally speaking, an item's approximate value is what people will likely pay for it. An Altair will likely sell for more than $1000 but how much more? If I try to sell an Apple II clone on ebay, one day it will go for $30 and the next it might go for $70.00 depending on who sees it. What is it's approximate value? If I start the auction a $1.00, the bidding might end at $100.00 but if I start it at $30.00, the auction might end at $32.00. >> blech, can we not go into ebay arguments again? If anyone wants to rehash it, go back and reread the archives. All I can say is prices vary widely. I've sold similar junk only have something sell for a high price and then something else go for much lower. People get ebay stupid and will overbid on many things. From dcastle3 at mindspring.com Thu Oct 25 14:35:38 2001 From: dcastle3 at mindspring.com (david castlewitz) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:01 2005 Subject: What Computer is This and Who is This Guy? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: That looks like an IBM 360. -----Original Message----- From: owner-classiccmp@classiccmp.org [mailto:owner-classiccmp@classiccmp.org]On Behalf Of Dan McDonald Sent: Thursday, October 25, 2001 1:34 PM To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org Subject: What Computer is This and Who is This Guy? Here's a picture from 1966 of an IBM computer at the IBM computing center on Manhattan (New York City, New York USA). The text for the photo says that the computer is being used to make a payroll calculation. Visible are 4 big-fridge-sized reel-reel tape devices, the console with operator seated at it, and some other things in the background. What's the computer model? Does anybody know who this guy (operator) is/was? Just a neat photo. It's about a 150k jpg file at this url: http://www.sover.net/~danm/computer_room.jpg _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp From Fritz_Chwolka at t-online.de Thu Oct 25 15:37:04 2001 From: Fritz_Chwolka at t-online.de (Fritz Chwolka) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:01 2005 Subject: Altos 586 In-Reply-To: <3BD85EE6.66D8497B@isd.net> Message-ID: <15wqDO-0E8MroC@fwd02.sul.t-online.com> On Thu, 25 Oct 2001 13:50:14 -0500, jkaye wrote: >I got an Altos 586 from a friend a while ago, with an external 2400 baud >modem and a Wyse (50?) terminal. There were no Unix install disks >included. I am looking to reinstall the OS, does anyone know where I >could get a copy of the Xenix that it uses? I think ist was CP/M2.2 or MPM which was used on the altos. Greetings from Fritz Chwolka - Duisburg / collecting old computers just for fun at www.alterechner.de \ From mythtech at Mac.com Thu Oct 25 14:57:58 2001 From: mythtech at Mac.com (Chris) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:01 2005 Subject: MacOS DHCP Server? Message-ID: >Speaking of LocalTalk, does anyone have TOPS software for PCs? I have two copies of it (TOPS for DOS v2.1). Unfortuantly, both are in use (they go with my two LocalTalk cards), so I am not willing to get rid of them. However, I don't know your (or the general list) stance on abandonware, and if TOPS qualifies. If it does, and I won't get chastised on this list for doing so, I would have no problems duplicating the install disks, and running off a copy of the manual for you. Of course, I can't sell it to you (outside of postage and material costs) because that would be piracy no matter HOW you slice it (selling for profit a copy of software while retaining the original, even if abandonware, is just not right in my book). I do know that TOPS is serialized, and checks itself on the network. You need a different code for each copy. I don't think the software itself is serialized, so you can install from the same disks, you just need to register it with different codes or duplicates will disable each other. -chris From dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com Thu Oct 25 15:07:01 2001 From: dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com (Douglas Quebbeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:01 2005 Subject: Altos 586 Message-ID: <7A9BACCEF0171D4FB77019F5104CDD37225831@jeffserver.tegjeff.com> Richard Erlacher stated as follows: > Joseph Kaye sprach thusly: > > I got an Altos 586 from a friend a while ago, with an external 2400 baud > > modem and a Wyse (50?) terminal. There were no Unix install disks > > included. I am looking to reinstall the OS, does anyone know where I > > could get a copy of the Xenix that it uses? > > Are you sure it uses XENIX? I gave one of these to Will Jennings, along with > the companion tape drive, a couple of years back. Perhaps he can help you. There were Altos' that ran MP/M-II, and others than ran XENIX... ISTR that the 586 was the squarish-box that ran MP/M-II, while the other model that had a hi-techish, Datageneralish look to it ran XENIX. We had both... Regards, -dq From dittman at dittman.net Thu Oct 25 15:11:43 2001 From: dittman at dittman.net (Eric Dittman) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:01 2005 Subject: Looking for DECNA Message-ID: <200110252011.f9PKBhP04312@narnia.int.dittman.net> I'm still looking for a DECNA for a Pro350/Pro380. I thought I'd ask again to see if anyone has an extra. -- Eric Dittman dittman@dittman.net Check out the DEC Enthusiasts Club at http://www.dittman.net/ From mikeford at socal.rr.com Thu Oct 25 15:12:25 2001 From: mikeford at socal.rr.com (Mike Ford) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:01 2005 Subject: OT: Re: Periodic rants on eBay In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: >> Love it or hate it, eBay is the most credible source of pricing or value >> that I know of. > >I find this comment to be INcredible. > >Are you saying that an ad for a $2,500 TRS-80 Color Computer is >"credible"? "But it didn't sell!", you scream. > >Fine. How about the original Macintosh that went for close to $1,000 >because it was "signed on the inside of the case by all the original >design team members"? > >"...credible source of pricing..." > >I'm sorry that any small comment made about eBay has to erupt into a >worthless pro/con debate about it. Don't act the fool, by credible I mean looking at several completed auctions including reading the descriptions and shipping terms and applying a little common sense. If I am really curious I go so far as to check on the bidders and seller feedback rating and prior transactions. Lots of good information is available for those who really look. BTW I said most credible, so whats your alternative to ebay as a price reference? From george at racsys.rt.rain.com Thu Oct 25 15:13:10 2001 From: george at racsys.rt.rain.com (George Leo Rachor Jr.) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:01 2005 Subject: HH8899 eecchhoo In-Reply-To: Message-ID: That is how I remember it but maybe I'm the one that is backwards.... George ========================================================= George L. Rachor Jr. george@rachors.com Hillsboro, Oregon http://rachors.com United States of America Amateur Radio : KD7DCX On Thu, 25 Oct 2001, Sellam Ismail wrote: > On Thu, 25 Oct 2001, George Leo Rachor Jr. wrote: > > > Let us know the resolution on this... > > > > I would have thought the proper setting would be Full-duplex... > > not Half-Duplex... > > Hmmm, maybe I'm getting my terms crossed. If it's half-duplex, does the > terminal compensate by sending out a local echo? > > Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ > International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org > > From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Oct 25 13:31:28 2001 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:01 2005 Subject: first step getting VAX 6000-400 booted ... In-Reply-To: <200110250209.f9P29Xg01925@narnia.int.dittman.net> from "Eric Dittman" at Oct 24, 1 09:09:33 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 804 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20011025/61c0cbc4/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Oct 25 13:46:30 2001 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:01 2005 Subject: ICL PERQ In-Reply-To: <200110250214.f9P2EG708880@oscar.open.com.au> from "Mike McCauley" at Oct 25, 1 12:14:17 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 4887 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20011025/e6ef743f/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Oct 25 14:54:23 2001 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:01 2005 Subject: HH8899 eecchhoo In-Reply-To: <20011025034105.SSSC8667.imf00bis.bellsouth.net@thegoodw> from "Glen Goodwin" at Oct 24, 1 11:39:18 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 431 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20011025/1852abaf/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Oct 25 15:01:27 2001 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:01 2005 Subject: macintosh analogue board reconditioning In-Reply-To: from "Chris" at Oct 24, 1 11:42:48 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 2472 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20011025/16204e67/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Oct 25 15:03:50 2001 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:01 2005 Subject: ICL PERQ In-Reply-To: <20011025052628Z565113-20435+2802@sunkay.cs.ualberta.ca> from "Mark Green" at Oct 24, 1 11:26:24 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 898 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20011025/eab20e23/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Oct 25 14:38:34 2001 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:01 2005 Subject: macintosh analogue board reconditioning In-Reply-To: from "r. 'bear' stricklin" at Oct 24, 1 10:15:58 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 3723 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20011025/5444c190/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Oct 25 14:47:42 2001 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:01 2005 Subject: What people "should" know In-Reply-To: <001101c15d02$f1955ce0$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> from "Richard Erlacher" at Oct 24, 1 09:12:56 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 3330 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20011025/2904f9e6/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Oct 25 15:18:48 2001 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:01 2005 Subject: ISA cards for free.. In-Reply-To: from "Rich Beaudry" at Oct 25, 1 08:19:08 am Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 768 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20011025/cd4fbbf1/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Oct 25 15:35:42 2001 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:01 2005 Subject: IBM ROM BASIC or lack thereof In-Reply-To: <20011025173008.48289.qmail@web20107.mail.yahoo.com> from "Ethan Dicks" at Oct 25, 1 10:30:08 am Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1171 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20011025/a8687cc4/attachment.ksh From jkaye at isd.net Thu Oct 25 15:47:42 2001 From: jkaye at isd.net (jkaye) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:01 2005 Subject: Altos 586 References: <3BD85EE6.66D8497B@isd.net> <003401c15d89$24684340$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> Message-ID: <3BD87A6E.85BC28BF@isd.net> Richard Erlacher wrote: > > Are you sure it uses XENIX? I gave one of these to Will Jennings, along with > the companion tape drive, a couple of years back. Perhaps he can help you. > > Dick > and Fritz Chwolka wrote: > > I think ist was CP/M2.2 or MPM which was used on the altos. > > Greetings from > > Fritz Chwolka - Duisburg I am pretty sure that it used Xenix, but I shall fire it up again this weekend just to make sure. I can see why there is some confusion (myself included) because it shows here: http://www.old-computers.com/museum/computer.asp?c=515 Which describes mine to a "T", 40mb drive and all (but the local console, I only have a term), and uses Xenix. and http://www.old-computers.com/museum/computer.asp?c=516 Which is similar, but uses the Z80 (hence the 580, rather than the 586 with uses the 8086), has a TV out, and no ethernet option. It uses CP/M 2.2, M/MP-80, or OASIS. I'll know more this weekend. -- Joseph Kaye From Innfogra at aol.com Thu Oct 25 16:03:46 2001 From: Innfogra at aol.com (Innfogra@aol.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:01 2005 Subject: Altos 586 Message-ID: <16b.2e8f696.2909d832@aol.com> I have had several Altos 586s Some ran MPM and some ran a very early version of Xenix. Does your machine boot? Have a hard drive? It has been a long time but I really liked the Altos machines. Paxton Astoria, OR -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20011025/45ae5eb2/attachment.html From cmcmanis at mcmanis.com Thu Oct 25 16:14:38 2001 From: cmcmanis at mcmanis.com (Chuck McManis) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:01 2005 Subject: OT: Re: Periodic rants on eBay In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20011025141030.00a6b230@mcmanis.com> At 11:39 AM 10/25/01, Sellam Ismail wrote: >On Thu, 25 Oct 2001, Mike Ford wrote: > > > Love it or hate it, eBay is the most credible source of pricing or value > > that I know of. > >I find this comment to be INcredible. > >Are you saying that an ad for a $2,500 TRS-80 Color Computer is >"credible"? "But it didn't sell!", you scream. Hi Sellam, I think its agreed that only "completed" auctions would count towards the valuation. Just like in the home appraisal market where only "closing" prices count, not listing prices. >Fine. How about the original Macintosh that went for close to $1,000 >because it was "signed on the inside of the case by all the original >design team members"? Which why Ebay is so great. If that were the only sale of a Macintosh then one would foolishly get the impression that a Macintosh was worth $1000. However, when you plot the moving average of many sales, you get a much more credible number. (Haven't done that for Macs) >"...credible source of pricing..." > >I'm sorry that any small comment made about eBay has to erupt into a >worthless pro/con debate about it. We have seen the enemy and he is us :-) --Chuck From korpela at ssl.berkeley.edu Thu Oct 25 16:34:36 2001 From: korpela at ssl.berkeley.edu (Eric J. Korpela) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:01 2005 Subject: ISA cards for free.. In-Reply-To: from Tony Duell at "Oct 25, 2001 09:18:48 pm" Message-ID: <200110252134.OAA01026@ellie.ssl.berkeley.edu> > You mean that nobody wants a current-loop capable card? Zog!. The other > feature of these cards (if it's the IBM card I think it is) is that it's > one of the few cards that will work in slot 8 of a real IBM PC/XT. It can > assert the right signal to enable the bus buffers on the motherboard. Actually after some point just about everything started being designed to be slot-8 compatible. I've got slot-8 compatible VGA cards.... Eric From edick at idcomm.com Thu Oct 25 16:45:55 2001 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:01 2005 Subject: Altos 586 References: <15wqDO-0E8MroC@fwd02.sul.t-online.com> Message-ID: <001901c15d9e$6ea668a0$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> Well, it was an 8086 box, so it wouldn't be CP/M 2.2 for the server. The workstations might have used 2.2, however. Dick ----- Original Message ----- From: "Fritz Chwolka" To: Sent: Thursday, October 25, 2001 2:37 PM Subject: Re: Altos 586 > On Thu, 25 Oct 2001 13:50:14 -0500, jkaye wrote: > > >I got an Altos 586 from a friend a while ago, with an external 2400 baud > >modem and a Wyse (50?) terminal. There were no Unix install disks > >included. I am looking to reinstall the OS, does anyone know where I > >could get a copy of the Xenix that it uses? > > I think ist was CP/M2.2 or MPM which was used on the altos. > > > Greetings from > > Fritz Chwolka - Duisburg > / collecting old computers just for fun at www.alterechner.de \ > > From ms at silke.rt.schwaben.de Thu Oct 25 16:49:40 2001 From: ms at silke.rt.schwaben.de (Michael Schneider) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:01 2005 Subject: What Computer is This and Who is This Guy? References: Message-ID: <3BD888F4.52D014EA@silke.rt.schwaben.de> No, the console does not seem to be tall enough. I'd say it's a 7090. david castlewitz wrote: > > That looks like an IBM 360. > > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-classiccmp@classiccmp.org > [mailto:owner-classiccmp@classiccmp.org]On Behalf Of Dan McDonald > Sent: Thursday, October 25, 2001 1:34 PM > To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org > Subject: What Computer is This and Who is This Guy? > > Here's a picture from 1966 of an IBM computer at the IBM computing center on > Manhattan (New York City, New York USA). The text for the photo says that > the computer is being used to make a payroll calculation. > > Visible are 4 big-fridge-sized reel-reel tape devices, the console with > operator seated at it, and some other things in the background. > > What's the computer model? Does anybody know who this guy (operator) > is/was? > > Just a neat photo. > > It's about a 150k jpg file at this url: > > http://www.sover.net/~danm/computer_room.jpg > > _________________________________________________________________ > Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp -- Michael Schneider email: ms@silke.rt.schwaben.de Germany http://www.vaxcluster.de People disagree with me. I just ignore them. (Linus Torvalds) From edick at idcomm.com Thu Oct 25 16:56:22 2001 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:01 2005 Subject: OT: Re: Periodic rants on eBay References: Message-ID: <002d01c15d9f$e2d9eac0$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> I've got to agree with this caution. I've seen some CRAZY fliers on some items. I've still got two of my Cromemco TV DAZZLERs, though the dollar signs lit up in my head when I saw that one about two years back that was auctioned at $14k. Another was sold for $450 or so, but the week I went to list mine, one failed even to get a second bid at $10. You've got to look at a number of auctions of a given item before you can reasonably expect to draw useful information from the eBay. Going by one auction is like judging the climate based on what you observe on a 1-day visit. Dick ----- Original Message ----- From: "Mike Ford" To: Sent: Thursday, October 25, 2001 2:12 PM Subject: Re: OT: Re: Periodic rants on eBay > >> Love it or hate it, eBay is the most credible source of pricing or value > >> that I know of. > > > >I find this comment to be INcredible. > > > >Are you saying that an ad for a $2,500 TRS-80 Color Computer is > >"credible"? "But it didn't sell!", you scream. > > > >Fine. How about the original Macintosh that went for close to $1,000 > >because it was "signed on the inside of the case by all the original > >design team members"? > > > >"...credible source of pricing..." > > > >I'm sorry that any small comment made about eBay has to erupt into a > >worthless pro/con debate about it. > > Don't act the fool! By credible I mean looking at several completed > auctions including reading the descriptions and shipping terms and applying > a little common sense. If I am really curious I go so far as to check on > the bidders and seller feedback rating and prior transactions. Lots of good > information is available for those who really look. > > BTW I said most credible, so whats your alternative to ebay as a price > reference? > > > From edick at idcomm.com Thu Oct 25 16:57:25 2001 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:01 2005 Subject: ISA cards for free.. References: <200110252134.OAA01026@ellie.ssl.berkeley.edu> Message-ID: <003301c15da0$083499a0$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> ...stands to reason, since to PC had no 16-bit slots. Dick ----- Original Message ----- From: "Eric J. Korpela" To: Sent: Thursday, October 25, 2001 3:34 PM Subject: Re: ISA cards for free.. > > You mean that nobody wants a current-loop capable card? Zog!. The other > > feature of these cards (if it's the IBM card I think it is) is that it's > > one of the few cards that will work in slot 8 of a real IBM PC/XT. It can > > assert the right signal to enable the bus buffers on the motherboard. > > Actually after some point just about everything started being designed > to be slot-8 compatible. I've got slot-8 compatible VGA cards.... > > Eric > > From mythtech at Mac.com Thu Oct 25 16:58:42 2001 From: mythtech at Mac.com (Chris) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:01 2005 Subject: macintosh analogue board reconditioning Message-ID: >> that the pin sticking thru the back side would have a blob of solder >> around it that would have a crack in it, and possibly be seperated from >> the board. If I remember right, it was a red cable in a group of cables, >> located kind of in the center of the board. > >In the middle of the board there's J4, which is the cable to the logic >board. I've never had dry joints there. Yes, J4 is what I was thinking of here. This is the one that commonly cracked, and carried the smack the case repair tip from Apple. I am amazed you haven't seen it go, I think every Mac Plus I repaired had signs of that joint having been overheating and arcing (one was so bad, the PCB was eaten out around the connector, and the insulating cover had a hole burned thru it). Most were cracked and needed to be resolded. Of course, mine all would have looked worse, as for quite some time, they were all treated with the case smacking... and many of the staff didn't understand to hit it gently, to jar the connection, not punch it to knock the mac off the desk (I started doing repairs when I came in one day to hear a chorus of *SMACK* &#@&$(@#&*# *SMACK* going up and down the halls... but back then I was part time, so things had to get pretty bad before anyone called me to come in) >> The final common problem was a bad diode near the bottom of the board. > >The component reference for that would be interesting. Maybe one of CR21, >CR20, CR26 (recitifer diodes for the 3 main supply lines)? The one I was thinking of is CR20. (I am almost positive that is the one, I have to base it off my notes unless I am going to actually open one of the repaired macs and have a look) -chris From mythtech at Mac.com Thu Oct 25 17:14:51 2001 From: mythtech at Mac.com (Chris) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:01 2005 Subject: OT: Re: Periodic rants on eBay Message-ID: >Fine. How about the original Macintosh that went for close to $1,000 >because it was "signed on the inside of the case by all the original >design team members"? You know, if someone is going to be an excited collector, they should be an EDUCATED collector. ALL macs up thru the Plus and part way thru the SE were signed on the inside by the original design team. Now a 128k that was NOT signed (but that the back case was original)... THAT would be an oddity and possibly of value (but since TTBOMK, there is no such beast, I would have to seriously doubt the authenticity). Things like that make me laugh. (I WISH I could sell one of my 128s for $1000, I would make a point of fixing the two that don't work!... but of course, if it is the signatures they want, I can sell them a platinum Mac Plus that reboots spontaneously) -chris From univac2 at earthlink.net Thu Oct 25 17:18:44 2001 From: univac2 at earthlink.net (Owen Robertson) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:01 2005 Subject: IBM 8 Inch Drive Message-ID: A dual IBM 8" diskette drive is for sale on eBay: http://cgi.ebay.com/aw-cgi/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=1287758038 It looks like the Display Writer drives to me. Will it work with a System/36 5362? The connector on the drive looks like it matches the connector on my 5362. From Innfogra at aol.com Thu Oct 25 17:45:02 2001 From: Innfogra at aol.com (Innfogra@aol.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:01 2005 Subject: Altos 586 Message-ID: <113.6a5842c.2909efee@aol.com> In a message dated 10/25/01 2:15:45 PM Pacific Daylight Time, dhquebbeman@theestopinalgroup.com writes: > There were Altos' that ran MP/M-II, and others than ran XENIX... ISTR > that the 586 was the squarish-box that ran MP/M-II, while the other > model that had a hi-techish, Datageneralish look to it ran XENIX. > We had both... > > The Z-80 Altos was the 580. This was the same squashed hexagon design used in the 586, 786 etc. Since it was a multiterminal machine each terminal had it's own Z-80 IIRC. These ran CPM and MPM. The 586s were an 8086 16 bit designs. Most of the ones I saw ran Xenix. however I had a couple that ran MPM-II based on a version of Digital Research DOS-86, I can't remember what it was called. Most 586s were of the squashed Hex design that I think Doug is calling DGish. I do seem to remember the first 586s were shipped in a square box, a la the 8XXX series. Of course my memory could be off, it has been a long time and I never saw one of those. Paxton Astoria, OR -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20011025/f5bd41ee/attachment.html From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Thu Oct 25 17:53:07 2001 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (ajp166) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:01 2005 Subject: first step getting VAX 6000-400 booted ... Message-ID: <00d101c15da9$5036f640$29ef9a8d@ajp166> This is easy... LAV-11 with DMF32 cab kit. The latter is needed for the correct connector. I did this the first time in 1984 after being told you cant connect a LP25 (Dataproducts I/F) to an 11/23... The bet was $1, I won. I still have that LAV-11 and the 11/23. Allison -----Original Message----- From: Tony Duell To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org Date: Thursday, October 25, 2001 5:22 PM Subject: Re: first step getting VAX 6000-400 booted ... >> I'm not Antonio or Allison, but I can answer this question. The "Data Products" >> parallel port works with printers with a "Data Products" parallel interface. I've >> used a couple of different printers with this interface. It's been a while so I >> can't remember the official name of the interface. The printers I used were made >> by Data Products and OEMed to other manufacturers (including DEC). > >IIRC, the Data Products interface is pretty similar to Centronics. I am >working from a dim memory here, but it's something like either the strobe >or busy/ready, or both need to be inverted to link a Centronics printer >to a Data Products host interface. You'll have to get the pinouts and >match up signals, of course, but generally it can be got to work with >only a couple of inverters. > >-tony From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Thu Oct 25 17:56:57 2001 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (ajp166) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:01 2005 Subject: first step getting VAX 6000-400 booted ... Message-ID: <00d201c15da9$51285b20$29ef9a8d@ajp166> The problem is not the need for an inverter but the right cab kit so it all come out to the right connector. Allison -----Original Message----- From: Ethan Dicks To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org Date: Thursday, October 25, 2001 1:46 PM Subject: Re: first step getting VAX 6000-400 booted ... > >--- Gunther Schadow wrote: >> - The DMB32 parallel printer is not a Centronics interface. But >> I may actually have a printer to go with it. A BIG thing, not >> heavy but taking up precious space if I put it into my >> basement. > >We used to use an LP25 on our DMF32 (Unibus ancestor of the DMB32). It >was a Dataproduct printer with a DEC badge. I do recall seeing a simple >circuit somewhere involving an inverter or two to attach a Centronics >printer to an LPV11. It shouldn't be a complicated matter to examine >which signals on the DP port are low-true and which ones are low-true >on a "Centronics" port and deduce which handshaking lines need inverted. > >-ethan > > > >__________________________________________________ >Do You Yahoo!? >Make a great connection at Yahoo! Personals. >http://personals.yahoo.com From cisin at xenosoft.com Thu Oct 25 18:11:37 2001 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin (XenoSoft)) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:01 2005 Subject: SLOT 8 (was: ISA cards for free.. In-Reply-To: <003301c15da0$083499a0$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> Message-ID: "SLOT 8" compatible IS NOT ABOUT 8 bit v 16 bit! "SLOT 8" compatible is whether it will work in an IBM XT (not compatibles) in slot #8 (the slot closest to the power supply). In the REAL IBM XT (not necessarily compatibles), that slot is different from the other 7. -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin@xenosoft.com DogEars On Thu, 25 Oct 2001, Richard Erlacher wrote: > ...stands to reason, since to PC had no 16-bit slots. > > Dick > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Eric J. Korpela" > To: > Sent: Thursday, October 25, 2001 3:34 PM > Subject: Re: ISA cards for free.. > > > > > You mean that nobody wants a current-loop capable card? Zog!. The other > > > feature of these cards (if it's the IBM card I think it is) is that it's > > > one of the few cards that will work in slot 8 of a real IBM PC/XT. It can > > > assert the right signal to enable the bus buffers on the motherboard. > > > > Actually after some point just about everything started being designed > > to be slot-8 compatible. I've got slot-8 compatible VGA cards.... > > > > Eric From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Oct 25 18:07:13 2001 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:01 2005 Subject: macintosh analogue board reconditioning In-Reply-To: from "Chris" at Oct 25, 1 05:58:42 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1624 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20011026/76ce229a/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Oct 25 18:03:13 2001 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:01 2005 Subject: ISA cards for free.. In-Reply-To: <003301c15da0$083499a0$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> from "Richard Erlacher" at Oct 25, 1 03:57:25 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 687 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20011026/bda31268/attachment.ksh From jkaye at isd.net Thu Oct 25 18:13:33 2001 From: jkaye at isd.net (jkaye) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:02 2005 Subject: Altos 586 References: <16b.2e8f696.2909d832@aol.com> Message-ID: <3BD89C9D.41D1E5B1@isd.net> Innfogra@aol.com wrote: > > I have had several Altos 586s Some ran MPM and some ran a very early > version of Xenix. > > Does your machine boot? Have a hard drive? It has been a long time but > I really liked the Altos machines. > > Paxton > Astoria, OR Yep, she still works I believe (it's been a few years ~7), but I didn't really use it that much as I didn't really know much unix. I would love to get it up and running with a fresh install, and get the ethernet board for it. Anyone seen one of those laying around? -- Joseph Kaye From pete at dunnington.u-net.com Thu Oct 25 18:14:29 2001 From: pete at dunnington.u-net.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:02 2005 Subject: IBM ROM BASIC or lack thereof In-Reply-To: Ethan Dicks "Re: IBM ROM BASIC or lack thereof" (Oct 25, 10:30) References: <20011025173008.48289.qmail@web20107.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <10110260014.ZM21154@mindy.dunnington.u-net.com> On Oct 25, 10:30, Ethan Dicks wrote: > > --- Tony Duell wrote: > > On several occasions I asked for 'An ST506 interface hard disk of about > > 50Mbytes' and had to explain what I meant... > > Yes, but how many heads did it have? Was it an ST506-interface drive > or an ST412-interface drive? It's being pedantic, but there is a > single-line difference. One could imagine a controller that could > handle a real ST-506 but not a real ST-412 drive. AFAIK, by the time > PCs supported the ST-225, it was a moot point, but pre-PeeCee controllers > might not be happy. Or the other way around; IIRC most ST-412 style drives would accept slow step pulses. I have an ST-506 style drive that won't work on almost any controller I have because it can't keep up with fast step pulses that an ST-412 would buffer. -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager University of York From donm at cts.com Thu Oct 25 18:24:07 2001 From: donm at cts.com (Don Maslin) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:02 2005 Subject: Altos 586 In-Reply-To: <113.6a5842c.2909efee@aol.com> Message-ID: On Thu, 25 Oct 2001 Innfogra@aol.com wrote: > In a message dated 10/25/01 2:15:45 PM Pacific Daylight Time, > dhquebbeman@theestopinalgroup.com writes: > > > > There were Altos' that ran MP/M-II, and others than ran XENIX... ISTR > > that the 586 was the squarish-box that ran MP/M-II, while the other > > model that had a hi-techish, Datageneralish look to it ran XENIX. > > We had both... > > > > > > The Z-80 Altos was the 580. This was the same squashed hexagon design used in > the 586, 786 etc. Since it was a multiterminal machine each terminal had it's > own Z-80 IIRC. These ran CPM and MPM. > > The 586s were an 8086 16 bit designs. Most of the ones I saw ran Xenix. > however I had a couple that ran MPM-II based on a version of Digital Research > DOS-86, I can't remember what it was called. > > Most 586s were of the squashed Hex design that I think Doug is calling DGish. > I do seem to remember the first 586s were shipped in a square box, a la the > 8XXX series. Of course my memory could be off, it has been a long time and I > never saw one of those. > > Paxton > Astoria, OR > Well, I can bracket the 586's O/S as the 486 ran CCP/M-86 and the 686 ran CCDOS. - don From greg at cosc.canterbury.ac.nz Thu Oct 25 18:38:49 2001 From: greg at cosc.canterbury.ac.nz (Greg Ewing) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:02 2005 Subject: macintosh analogue board reconditioning In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <200110252338.MAA08696@s454.cosc.canterbury.ac.nz> Chris : > One was a cracked solder joint on the main power feed (?). I think its > location was "J1", if I remember correctly. > ... If I remember right, it was a red cable in a group of cables, > located kind of in the center of the board. That sounds like it might be the connector I had trouble with in my Mac Plus... except in my case, one pin on the end had never had any solder on it at all! It must have got missed by the soldering droid at the factory... Greg Ewing, Computer Science Dept, +--------------------------------------+ University of Canterbury, | A citizen of NewZealandCorp, a | Christchurch, New Zealand | wholly-owned subsidiary of USA Inc. | greg@cosc.canterbury.ac.nz +--------------------------------------+ From zaft at azstarnet.com Thu Oct 25 18:47:47 2001 From: zaft at azstarnet.com (Gordon Zaft) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:02 2005 Subject: SLOT 8 (was: ISA cards for free.. In-Reply-To: References: <003301c15da0$083499a0$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> Message-ID: <4.3.2.7.2.20011025164723.00b16390@mail.azstarnet.com> At 04:11 PM 10/25/2001 -0700, you wrote: >"SLOT 8" compatible IS NOT ABOUT 8 bit v 16 bit! >"SLOT 8" compatible is whether it will work in an IBM XT (not >compatibles) in slot #8 (the slot closest to the power supply). >In the REAL IBM XT (not necessarily compatibles), that slot is different >from the other 7. Was this an issue in the PC, or just the PC/XT? Gordon From edick at idcomm.com Thu Oct 25 18:50:22 2001 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:02 2005 Subject: SLOT 8 (was: ISA cards for free.. References: Message-ID: <001101c15daf$cf781d20$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> REALLY! I had no idea that they'd so something so silly as dedicate a slot on an otherwise modern (unlike the APPLE-][) backplane. What's different about that slot? I've never owned a "real" XT, so I've never had to wrestle with that. My first PC was a '186-based clone, and I've never looked back. Was that "slot-8" compatibility creature a bug in the PC as well? Dick ----- Original Message ----- From: "Fred Cisin (XenoSoft)" To: Sent: Thursday, October 25, 2001 5:11 PM Subject: SLOT 8 (was: ISA cards for free.. > "SLOT 8" compatible IS NOT ABOUT 8 bit v 16 bit! > "SLOT 8" compatible is whether it will work in an IBM XT (not > compatibles) in slot #8 (the slot closest to the power supply). > In the REAL IBM XT (not necessarily compatibles), that slot is different > from the other 7. > > -- > Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin@xenosoft.com > DogEars > > > On Thu, 25 Oct 2001, Richard Erlacher wrote: > > > ...stands to reason, since to PC had no 16-bit slots. > > > > Dick > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: "Eric J. Korpela" > > To: > > Sent: Thursday, October 25, 2001 3:34 PM > > Subject: Re: ISA cards for free.. > > > > > > > > You mean that nobody wants a current-loop capable card? Zog!. The other > > > > feature of these cards (if it's the IBM card I think it is) is that it's > > > > one of the few cards that will work in slot 8 of a real IBM PC/XT. It can > > > > assert the right signal to enable the bus buffers on the motherboard. > > > > > > Actually after some point just about everything started being designed > > > to be slot-8 compatible. I've got slot-8 compatible VGA cards.... > > > > > > Eric > > From korpela at ssl.berkeley.edu Thu Oct 25 18:56:26 2001 From: korpela at ssl.berkeley.edu (Eric J. Korpela) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:02 2005 Subject: ISA cards for free.. In-Reply-To: from Tony Duell at "Oct 26, 2001 00:03:13 am" Message-ID: <200110252356.QAA03778@ellie.ssl.berkeley.edu> > The IBM Async card has logic to do this (you have to jumper the 2 pin > header in the middle of the card). Some M$ bus mouse cards have a similar > feature. Those are all I've seen, but Eric has reported seeing 8 bit VGA > cards that can do this. Maybe others as well. I've got an Everex 1200 bps modem, a Video Seven VEGA VGA, and a no-name NE1000 compatibile ethernet card that claim slot 8 compatibility in their docs. Most other 8 bit cards I have have no docs. Eric From jkaye at isd.net Thu Oct 25 18:58:37 2001 From: jkaye at isd.net (jkaye) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:02 2005 Subject: Altos 586 References: <3BD85EE6.66D8497B@isd.net> <01Oct25.153054edt.119054@gateway.mediacen.navy.mil> Message-ID: <3BD8A72D.8AA990F3@isd.net> Jeff Hellige wrote: > > I have two tapes that came from an Altos 586T that are > supposed to contain a backup of the Xenix for the machine. I believe > I still have one of the tape drives for the machine as well, though I > did get rid of my 586T a while back. > > Jeff What was the interface for the tape drive? Did it use a card? -- Joseph Kaye 1989 Lincoln Mark VII LSC 1995 Ford Aerostar XLT -80HP NOS System -Contemplating Nitrous Install... -B&M AOD Shift Kit -4.0 V6 / Electronic 4wd -Addco Swaybars and Koni Struts -ALL YOUR BASE ARE BELONG TO US From cisin at xenosoft.com Thu Oct 25 19:24:12 2001 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin (XenoSoft)) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:02 2005 Subject: SLOT 8 (was: ISA cards for free.. In-Reply-To: <001101c15daf$cf781d20$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> Message-ID: On Thu, 25 Oct 2001, Richard Erlacher wrote: > REALLY! I had no idea that they'd so something so silly as dedicate a slot on > an otherwise modern (unlike the APPLE-][) backplane. A company as big as IBM "doesn't HAVE TO learn from the mistakes of others". Remember the PCJr original keyboard? > What's different about that slot? "Wrong" side of a buffer. > I've never owned a "real" XT, so I've never > had to wrestle with that. My first PC was a '186-based clone, and I've never > looked back. Was that "slot-8" compatibility creature a bug in the PC as well? IBM had a LOT of serial cards that nobody wanted (on a 5 slot PC, the market wanted multifunction!) Every XT from IBM came with a "FREE" serial card. It blocked slot 8 from being used by anything else that MIGHT have a problem with it, and gave the public image impression of a generous (they were more expensive then!) freebie. > Was that "slot-8" compatibility creature a bug in the PC as well? Yes and no. :-) Since the PC had 5 slots, there was HARDLY EVER a problem with slot number 8! -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin@xenosoft.com DogEars From cisin at xenosoft.com Thu Oct 25 19:25:09 2001 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin (XenoSoft)) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:02 2005 Subject: SLOT 8 (was: ISA cards for free.. In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.2.20011025164723.00b16390@mail.azstarnet.com> Message-ID: > At 04:11 PM 10/25/2001 -0700, you wrote: > >"SLOT 8" compatible IS NOT ABOUT 8 bit v 16 bit! > >"SLOT 8" compatible is whether it will work in an IBM XT (not > >compatibles) in slot #8 (the slot closest to the power supply). > >In the REAL IBM XT (not necessarily compatibles), that slot is different > >from the other 7. On Thu, 25 Oct 2001, Gordon Zaft wrote: > Was this an issue in the PC, or just the PC/XT? On the PC (5150) the problem with slot 8 was solved by having 5 slots. -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin@xenosoft.com From geoffr at zipcon.net Thu Oct 25 19:51:26 2001 From: geoffr at zipcon.net (Geoff Reed) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:02 2005 Subject: Altos 586 In-Reply-To: <3BD89C9D.41D1E5B1@isd.net> References: <16b.2e8f696.2909d832@aol.com> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20011025175101.03368880@mail.zipcon.net> If you need to format a HD and don't know tha password to the format utility, it's sotla At 06:13 PM 10/25/01 -0500, you wrote: >Innfogra@aol.com wrote: > > > > I have had several Altos 586s Some ran MPM and some ran a very early > > version of Xenix. > > > > Does your machine boot? Have a hard drive? It has been a long time but > > I really liked the Altos machines. > > > > Paxton > > Astoria, OR > >Yep, she still works I believe (it's been a few years ~7), but I didn't >really use it that much as I didn't really know much unix. I would love >to get it up and running with a fresh install, and get the ethernet >board for it. Anyone seen one of those laying around? > > >-- >Joseph Kaye From spectre at stockholm.ptloma.edu Thu Oct 25 20:19:39 2001 From: spectre at stockholm.ptloma.edu (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:02 2005 Subject: OT: Re: Periodic rants on eBay In-Reply-To: from Chris at "Oct 25, 1 06:14:51 pm" Message-ID: <200110260119.SAA07800@stockholm.ptloma.edu> > >Fine. How about the original Macintosh that went for close to $1,000 > >because it was "signed on the inside of the case by all the original > >design team members"? > > You know, if someone is going to be an excited collector, they should be > an EDUCATED collector. ALL macs up thru the Plus and part way thru the SE > were signed on the inside by the original design team. For that matter, my IIcis both have the signatures in the bottom of the case. -- ----------------------------- personal page: http://www.armory.com/~spectre/ -- Cameron Kaiser, Point Loma Nazarene University * ckaiser@stockholm.ptloma.edu -- Well done is better than well said. -- Benjamin Franklin ------------------- From jhellige at earthlink.net Thu Oct 25 20:45:13 2001 From: jhellige at earthlink.net (Jeff Hellige) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:02 2005 Subject: Altos 586 In-Reply-To: <3BD8A72D.8AA990F3@isd.net> References: <3BD85EE6.66D8497B@isd.net> <01Oct25.153054edt.119054@gateway.mediacen.navy.mil> <3BD8A72D.8AA990F3@isd.net> Message-ID: >Jeff Hellige wrote: >> >> I have two tapes that came from an Altos 586T that are >> supposed to contain a backup of the Xenix for the machine. I believe >> I still have one of the tape drives for the machine as well, though I > > did get rid of my 586T a while back. > >What was the interface for the tape drive? Did it use a card? The drive was plugged up to the hard disk/floppy controller if I remember correctly...the 2nd large board, in the upper section of the 586T's clamshell case. I'm not sure of the interface though. I do know that it's not SCSI. It's a Wangtek 5099EN24 and holds 60MB. I've never tried the tapes or the drive. The 586T I had ended up being a total loss. VERY extensive corrosion throughout. Jeff -- Home of the TRS-80 Model 2000 FAQ File http://www.cchaven.com http://www.geocities.com/siliconvalley/lakes/6757 From edick at idcomm.com Thu Oct 25 20:56:32 2001 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:02 2005 Subject: Altos 586 References: <3BD85EE6.66D8497B@isd.net> <01Oct25.153054edt.119054@gateway.mediacen.navy.mil> <3BD8A72D.8AA990F3@isd.net> Message-ID: <000d01c15dc1$7010b920$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> Get in touch with Will Jennings ... He'd be likely to let you use his if you don't mind shipping it back and forth. Dick ----- Original Message ----- From: "jkaye" To: Sent: Thursday, October 25, 2001 5:58 PM Subject: Re: Altos 586 > Jeff Hellige wrote: > > > > I have two tapes that came from an Altos 586T that are > > supposed to contain a backup of the Xenix for the machine. I believe > > I still have one of the tape drives for the machine as well, though I > > did get rid of my 586T a while back. > > > > Jeff > > What was the interface for the tape drive? Did it use a card? > > > > -- > Joseph Kaye > > 1989 Lincoln Mark VII LSC 1995 Ford Aerostar XLT > -80HP NOS System -Contemplating Nitrous Install... > -B&M AOD Shift Kit -4.0 V6 / Electronic 4wd > -Addco Swaybars and Koni Struts -ALL YOUR BASE ARE BELONG TO US > > From edick at idcomm.com Thu Oct 25 20:58:48 2001 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:02 2005 Subject: SLOT 8 (was: ISA cards for free.. References: Message-ID: <001901c15dc1$c0f5f3a0$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> Yes, but were there any unbuffered slots on the orignal PC? Dick ----- Original Message ----- From: "Fred Cisin (XenoSoft)" To: Sent: Thursday, October 25, 2001 6:24 PM Subject: Re: SLOT 8 (was: ISA cards for free.. > On Thu, 25 Oct 2001, Richard Erlacher wrote: > > REALLY! I had no idea that they'd so something so silly as dedicate a slot on > > an otherwise modern (unlike the APPLE-][) backplane. > > A company as big as IBM "doesn't HAVE TO learn from the mistakes of > others". Remember the PCJr original keyboard? > > > > What's different about that slot? > > "Wrong" side of a buffer. > > > I've never owned a "real" XT, so I've never > > had to wrestle with that. My first PC was a '186-based clone, and I've never > > looked back. Was that "slot-8" compatibility creature a bug in the PC as well? > > IBM had a LOT of serial cards that nobody wanted (on a 5 slot PC, the > market wanted multifunction!) > Every XT from IBM came with a "FREE" serial card. It blocked slot 8 from > being used by anything else that MIGHT have a problem with it, and gave > the public image impression of a generous (they were more expensive then!) > freebie. > > > Was that "slot-8" compatibility creature a bug in the PC as well? > Yes and no. :-) > Since the PC had 5 slots, there was HARDLY EVER a problem with slot number > 8! > > -- > Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin@xenosoft.com > DogEars > > From edick at idcomm.com Thu Oct 25 21:00:37 2001 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:02 2005 Subject: SLOT 8 (was: ISA cards for free.. References: Message-ID: <002101c15dc2$019587e0$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> Not necessarily, right? After all, if the 8-slot motherboard was just the 5-slot with the last 3 slots step-and-repeat-ed ... Dick ----- Original Message ----- From: "Fred Cisin (XenoSoft)" To: Sent: Thursday, October 25, 2001 6:25 PM Subject: Re: SLOT 8 (was: ISA cards for free.. > > > At 04:11 PM 10/25/2001 -0700, you wrote: > > >"SLOT 8" compatible IS NOT ABOUT 8 bit v 16 bit! > > >"SLOT 8" compatible is whether it will work in an IBM XT (not > > >compatibles) in slot #8 (the slot closest to the power supply). > > >In the REAL IBM XT (not necessarily compatibles), that slot is different > > >from the other 7. > > On Thu, 25 Oct 2001, Gordon Zaft wrote: > > Was this an issue in the PC, or just the PC/XT? > > On the PC (5150) the problem with slot 8 was solved by having 5 slots. > > -- > Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin@xenosoft.com > > From foo at siconic.com Thu Oct 25 21:16:30 2001 From: foo at siconic.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:02 2005 Subject: HH8899 eecchhoo In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Thu, 25 Oct 2001, Tony Duell wrote: > > Upon exiting the setup program, the result is always the same: all keyboard > > input produces double characters on the screen. I don't see anything in > > the setup utility pertaining to local echo. > > Check the DIP switches on the terminal logic PCB (rearmost PCB in the > case). SW402 (nearest the top of the board) should be all up (0). SW401 > (lower down) should be, from the left, up, up, down, down, up, up, up, > down. I don't think it's a hardware setting as he mentions that the double echo of characters starts after he exits the setup program (see quoted original message above). Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org From foo at siconic.com Thu Oct 25 21:20:50 2001 From: foo at siconic.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:02 2005 Subject: OT: Re: OT: Re: Periodic rants on eBay In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20011025141030.00a6b230@mcmanis.com> Message-ID: On Thu, 25 Oct 2001, Chuck McManis wrote: > >Fine. How about the original Macintosh that went for close to $1,000 > >because it was "signed on the inside of the case by all the original > >design team members"? > > Which why Ebay is so great. If that were the only sale of a Macintosh then > one would foolishly get the impression that a Macintosh was worth $1000. > However, when you plot the moving average of many sales, you get a much > more credible number. (Haven't done that for Macs) This would be true if it weren't for the fact that eBay doesn't keep their auction data around for people to make these sorts of analyses. Another reason why I hate them. They obviously aren't doing anything with the data...why don't they let someone else do something with it? It's not their data to begin with, in the same respect that they are not content providers, therefore they don't own the content of each auction. That's another thing that pisses me off about eBay, how they re-define rules to suit their own greedy purposes. > >I'm sorry that any small comment made about eBay has to erupt into a > >worthless pro/con debate about it. > > We have seen the enemy and he is us :-) Boy howdy! Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org From foo at siconic.com Thu Oct 25 21:22:36 2001 From: foo at siconic.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:02 2005 Subject: OT: Re: OT: Re: Periodic rants on eBay In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Thu, 25 Oct 2001, Mike Ford wrote: > BTW I said most credible, so whats your alternative to ebay as a price > reference? Meditation while under the effects of Mescaline. Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org From vaxman at qwest.net Thu Oct 25 22:14:30 2001 From: vaxman at qwest.net (Clint Wolff (VAX collector)) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:02 2005 Subject: What people "should" know In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Thu, 25 Oct 2001, Tony Duell wrote: > [For the software people here, the best analogy I can think of is the > GOTO statement (or equivalent). It exists. It's often bad practice to use > it. But there are times when it's the right thing to use. Just as (IMHO) > there are times when a monostable is the right thing to use.] > A better analogy for the software people is to assume a variable is initialized when the program starts. I spent weeks tracking down a bug which only showed up the second time a program was run. The debris in memory from the compiler made it happy the first run, but the leftovers from the first run made the second crash... One-shots generate a pulse whos timing is based on discrete components, general a resistor and capacitor, though the resistor may be internal to the component. With standard components, the resistor is +/- 5% and the capacitor is +/- 20%. They also change value with age and use, so one-shots usually are paired with a variable resistor to keep them tweaked in. When you are running a board at a few kilohertz, the component tolerance doesn't hurt you too bad, at a megahertz it's painful, and at tens of megahertz it just doesn't work. In the good old days, dedicating 10 flip-flops to generate a pulse was an expensive answer, now days, (as someone else pointed out) flip-flops are basically free, but an analog one-shot (with capacitor) is really huge! clint From DSEAGRAV at toad.xkl.com Thu Oct 25 22:19:41 2001 From: DSEAGRAV at toad.xkl.com (Daniel A. Seagraves) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:02 2005 Subject: [OT] New toy... Message-ID: <13686050303.16.DSEAGRAV@toad.xkl.com> I got a new toy today... The FCC granted me the callsign KC9ALV. Now not only can I annoy my mom by leaving large computer parts around the house, I can annoy her by coming over the phone lines and TV and such. ^_^ (I'm just kidding... All I have that I can use is an HT, I didn't pass the Morse so the HF rig is a paperweight until December, which is the next time the test runs around here. But once I get HF access, I may have to worry! ^_^ And I do know enough about RFI to know how to stop it, I'm just making a joke about it.) ------- From acme_ent at bellsouth.net Thu Oct 25 23:09:43 2001 From: acme_ent at bellsouth.net (Glen Goodwin) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:02 2005 Subject: CP/M Heaven (was HH8899 eecchhoo) Message-ID: <20011026041130.NKPI8667.imf00bis.bellsouth.net@thegoodw> Tony and Sellam, thanks to both of you for the suggestions. I'm going to give Sellam's idea a try first since it's easier to poke a few keys than to open the box ;>) I'll let you know what I find out. The H89 was just one of several computers I've been given recently. Among them were several TS1000s, a ZX80, a TS1500, an Apple ][e with monitor, dual drives, and printer, and more. The CP/M boxes alone include the H89, two Z100s (one with hard drive!), and a Xerox 820 with hard drive and dual 8" drives. As I bring these boxes into action I'm sure I'll have plenty of questions for the CP/M folks out there, and some for the Z80 and S-100 hardware people too ;>) For starters: The Z100 with the hard drive looks good, but I can't format the ZDOS partition. PREP initializes the drive, tests the media (this takes 1.5 hours on a 20 MB drive), and creates the partitions. I can then monkey around with the size of the partitions and their names, etc. However, FORMAT E: /S produces "Invalid media type reading drive E: Abort, retry or fail?" I've swapped three different hard drives into the system, and replaced the hd controller (I don't think I have a spare data separator board). I can successfully initialize and copy files to the CP/M-85 partition (can't make it bootable yet as I don't have complete CP/M-85 system disks for it). And, what are the four adjacent jumpers on the hd controller (not the Format Enable)? Is there any documentation available for this board? I have docs for all the Z100 hardware except the hd controller . . . Any ideas are welcome! Glen 0/0 From fernande at internet1.net Wed Oct 24 23:25:26 2001 From: fernande at internet1.net (Chad Fernandez) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:02 2005 Subject: VLB SCSI? References: <200110251529.f9PFTE003375@narnia.int.dittman.net> Message-ID: <3BD79436.8327AB4E@internet1.net> Shoot..... I've wanted a VLB SCSI card! The Adaptec would have been perfect. Tell me, is the 2842 wide or narrow? Chad Fernandez Michigan, USA Eric Dittman wrote: > > > Does anyone have a VLB system that needs a VLB SCSI controllers? > > I have an Ultrastor 34F and an Adaptec 2842 free, just pay shipping. > > Otherwise, I'll just toss them. > > That was fast. They've been claimed. > > Thanks. > -- > Eric Dittman > dittman@dittman.net > Check out the DEC Enthusiasts Club at http://www.dittman.net/ From acme_ent at bellsouth.net Thu Oct 25 23:36:12 2001 From: acme_ent at bellsouth.net (Glen Goodwin) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:02 2005 Subject: Price guide for vintage computers Message-ID: <20011026043759.KCXT14515.imf04bis.bellsouth.net@thegoodw> > >Luckily, some manner of salvation is on its way in the form of a price > >guide. No, I'm not writing it, but the person who is will make it known > >very soon. > > Maybe it will make some money for the author, but prices are just too > variable and too fast changing for a printed guide to be of much practical > use. What I would rather see is a hunters handbook, say 125 pages with the > top 500 things to look for, each item getting an average of a 1/4 page for > a photo, or maybe a shared photo, with a description and price range. Sell > one to every scrapper in the world, and those 500 things become a LOT more > available. > > working title, "How much money did you throw away today?" In any hobby, a price guide is both a blessing and a curse. When I owned a sports card shop I became aware of the potential effects of price fixing and other forms of market manipulation. Specifically, if the publisher of a price guide had a bunch of Don Drysdale and Sandy Koufax cards to dump, those players would book high until he dumped his cards. Additionally, advertiser pressure influenced prices listed in these books. For vintage computers, a price guide published 2-4 times yearly, listing maybe 500 computers, might work. It could be advantageous to only include photos for 50 of these computers in each issue, rotating through all 500. This would encourage people to buy the next issue, with photos of 50 *different* machines. We have Ebay now, and other auction sites, from which to draw data. The publication might also consider any documentable, verifiable report from private buyers and sellers when compiling the price guide. And since when can your average scrapper read, anyway? Just my two cents . . . Glen 0/0 From fernande at internet1.net Wed Oct 24 23:44:19 2001 From: fernande at internet1.net (Chad Fernandez) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:02 2005 Subject: OT: Re: OT: Re: Periodic rants on eBay References: Message-ID: <3BD798A3.591F0D05@internet1.net> Sellam Ismail wrote: > > This would be true if it weren't for the fact that eBay doesn't keep their > auction data around for people to make these sorts of analyses. Auctions are around for something like 30 days. Any longer and the prices would be irrelavant. > > Another reason why I hate them. They obviously aren't doing anything with > the data...why don't they let someone else do something with it? It's not > their data to begin with, in the same respect that they are not content > providers, therefore they don't own the content of each auction. Who cares? What is there even TO DO with the data? Track people buying habbits? > That's another thing that pisses me off about eBay, how they re-define > rules to suit their own greedy purposes. They are a company. Chad Fernandez Michigan, USA From dittman at dittman.net Thu Oct 25 23:52:33 2001 From: dittman at dittman.net (Eric Dittman) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:02 2005 Subject: VLB SCSI? In-Reply-To: from "Chad Fernandez" at Oct 25, 2001 12:25:26 AM Message-ID: <200110260452.f9Q4qXT05534@narnia.int.dittman.net> > Shoot..... I've wanted a VLB SCSI card! The Adaptec would have been > perfect. Tell me, is the 2842 wide or narrow? Both of them were narrow. There wasn't a wide 2842. -- Eric Dittman dittman@dittman.net Check out the DEC Enthusiasts Club at http://www.dittman.net/ From fernande at internet1.net Thu Oct 25 00:28:19 2001 From: fernande at internet1.net (Chad Fernandez) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:02 2005 Subject: IBM 8 Inch Drive References: Message-ID: <3BD7A2F3.DCEA61B5@internet1.net> It looks like a toaster, without the bread slots!! :-) What type of controller board does this use? Anybody know? Chad Fernandez Michigan, USA Owen Robertson wrote: > > A dual IBM 8" diskette drive is for sale on eBay: > > http://cgi.ebay.com/aw-cgi/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=1287758038 > > It looks like the Display Writer drives to me. Will it work with a System/36 > 5362? The connector on the drive looks like it matches the connector on my > 5362. From zaft at azstarnet.com Fri Oct 26 00:26:27 2001 From: zaft at azstarnet.com (Gordon C. Zaft) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:02 2005 Subject: SLOT 8 (was: ISA cards for free.. In-Reply-To: References: <4.3.2.7.2.20011025164723.00b16390@mail.azstarnet.com> Message-ID: <4.3.2.7.2.20011025222532.0288ffa8@pop.azstarnet.com> At 05:25 PM 10/25/2001 -0700, you wrote: > > At 04:11 PM 10/25/2001 -0700, you wrote: > > >"SLOT 8" compatible IS NOT ABOUT 8 bit v 16 bit! > > >"SLOT 8" compatible is whether it will work in an IBM XT (not > > >compatibles) in slot #8 (the slot closest to the power supply). > > >In the REAL IBM XT (not necessarily compatibles), that slot is different > > >from the other 7. > >On Thu, 25 Oct 2001, Gordon Zaft wrote: > > Was this an issue in the PC, or just the PC/XT? > >On the PC (5150) the problem with slot 8 was solved by having 5 slots. I'm aware that the PC has only 5 slots, I have one sitting in my office. What I meant was, is there a corresponding problem with the slot closest to the power supply in the PC? Gordon Gordon Zaft zaft@azstarnet.com From fernande at internet1.net Thu Oct 25 00:55:43 2001 From: fernande at internet1.net (Chad Fernandez) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:02 2005 Subject: VLB SCSI? References: <200110260452.f9Q4qXT05534@narnia.int.dittman.net> Message-ID: <3BD7A95F.3F61A3B4@internet1.net> Do you know of any wide scsi vlb card? Chad Fernandez Michigan, USA Eric Dittman wrote: > > > Shoot..... I've wanted a VLB SCSI card! The Adaptec would have been > > perfect. Tell me, is the 2842 wide or narrow? > > Both of them were narrow. There wasn't a wide 2842. > -- > Eric Dittman > dittman@dittman.net > Check out the DEC Enthusiasts Club at http://www.dittman.net/ From GOOI at oce.nl Fri Oct 26 01:03:08 2001 From: GOOI at oce.nl (Gooijen H) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:02 2005 Subject: [OT] New toy... Message-ID: Congrats, Daniel. I am a HAM amateur since 1974, my call is PE1CKF. Just like you I never passed the morse code tests. It is difficult to find the time *each* evening for, let's say 20-30 minutes, listening to morse. But with the latest developments like morse code exam at 5 words per minute or even less (!) perhaps I will one day be able to talk to you on 40 or 20 meters without the morse code study. During the study at the Technical Highschool, in the 3rd year, you work for some companies as part of the education. One semester I had to stay as a guest with some people. In the evening I was alone in my room so I took my rig, an ICOM-211 144-146 MHz all mode, with an HB9CV antenna with me the next week. Could enjoy the local HAMs, but after some 10 minutes participation, the woman came up the stairs. I had to stop immediately whatever I was doing because her electrical organ made very strange sounds as if an old drunk sailor had hidden inside the organ and was mumbling something .... I am pretty sure that many people on this list are HAM. - Henk. > -----Original Message----- > From: Daniel A. Seagraves [mailto:DSEAGRAV@toad.xkl.com] > Sent: vrijdag 26 oktober 2001 5:20 > To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org > Subject: [OT] New toy... > > > I got a new toy today... The FCC granted me the callsign KC9ALV. > Now not only can I annoy my mom by leaving large computer parts around > the house, I can annoy her by coming over the phone lines and > TV and such. ^_^ > (I'm just kidding... All I have that I can use is an HT, I > didn't pass the Morse > so the HF rig is a paperweight until December, which is the > next time the test > runs around here. But once I get HF access, I may have to > worry! ^_^ And I do > know enough about RFI to know how to stop it, I'm just making > a joke about it.) > > ------- > > From CAA007216 at mail.ono.es Fri Oct 26 01:49:55 2001 From: CAA007216 at mail.ono.es (Sergio Pedraja Cabo) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:02 2005 Subject: IBM 8 Inch Drive Message-ID: We had one of these in our installation connected to one Displaywrite system, if I remember well, and another in the S/390 room. I asked about it sometime ago. It appears to have one 37 pin standard interface, but it's not clear what is (or do) the other connector. Regards Sergio ----- Mensaje Original ----- Remitente: Chad Fernandez Fecha: Jueves, Octubre 25, 2001 7:28 am Asunto: Re: IBM 8 Inch Drive > It looks like a toaster, without the bread slots!! :-) > > What type of controller board does this use? Anybody know? > > Chad Fernandez > Michigan, USA > > Owen Robertson wrote: > > > > A dual IBM 8" diskette drive is for sale on eBay: > > > > http://cgi.ebay.co > > > > It looks like the Display Writer drives to me. Will it work with > a System/36 > > 5362? The connector on the drive looks like it matches the > connector on my > > 5362. > From mikeford at socal.rr.com Fri Oct 26 01:50:59 2001 From: mikeford at socal.rr.com (Mike Ford) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:02 2005 Subject: Periodic rants on eBay In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: >I know, I'm rambling again but I've been thinking about ebay strategies >lately because I'm about to post a bunch of stuff there. Does anyone have >any useful selling tips based on their own experiences -aside from the >obvious (photos.) Know your product, what it is, what it does, and who needs it. Look at other peoples ads, do what the ones that sell for the most do, pictures, information, and time of auction. Don't sell anything of real value until you have about 20 or 30 positive feedback. Keep your feedback positive, act like even ONE negative is a stake through the heart, support your buyer and ASSUME nothing. Ship promptly, and stay on top of email. Keep your buyer informed. Forget reserve auctions. If an item is thinly traded, make the minimum bid your minimum acceptable price. USE BUY IT NOW, and fill in the stuff for instant purchase (shipping costs). Make your terms clear, especially things like shipping internationally. Place items in batches, unless you LIKE spending time in a post office. BTW selling collectible items is an ENTIRELY different thing from selling commodity items. From jpl15 at panix.com Fri Oct 26 01:55:24 2001 From: jpl15 at panix.com (John Lawson) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:02 2005 Subject: [OT] New toy... In-Reply-To: <13686050303.16.DSEAGRAV@toad.xkl.com> Message-ID: FB OM YR SIGS 599 RPT 599 QSL VIA BURO TNX ES 73 DE KB6SCO From jhellige at earthlink.net Thu Oct 25 13:17:36 2001 From: jhellige at earthlink.net (Jeff Hellige) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:02 2005 Subject: 2.88 MB floppy drive, scsi? In-Reply-To: <20011025172558.67110.qmail@web20102.mail.yahoo.com> References: <20011025172558.67110.qmail@web20102.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <01Oct26.035441edt.119291@gateway.mediacen.navy.mil> >--- Iggy Drougge wrote: >> That was also done by good old cost-cutting Commodore in order to add HD >> capabilities to the Amiga 3000 and 4000. They ordered a batch of >> custom-made drives which would step down to half the rate when using HD >> floppies, so that the same old floppy controller could keep up. > >But the big benefit was that it worked with _all_ Amigas, not just the >A3000 and A4000. I doubt many people used an external 1.44Mb floppy >drive with an A1000, but it works. I'd like to find one of the external Dell HD floppies for the Amiga. Nice drives and I wish I had kept mine. I missed out on the one that was up on eBay a couple of weeks ago. I've never tried any of the Amtrade HD drives. Jeff -- Home of the TRS-80 Model 2000 FAQ File http://www.cchaven.com http://www.geocities.com/siliconvalley/lakes/6757 From mikeford at socal.rr.com Fri Oct 26 02:14:00 2001 From: mikeford at socal.rr.com (Mike Ford) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:02 2005 Subject: MacOS DHCP Server? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: >I do know that TOPS is serialized, and checks itself on the network. You >need a different code for each copy. I don't think the software itself is >serialized, so you can install from the same disks, you just need to >register it with different codes or duplicates will disable each other. Chris, when you are making these illegal bootlegs do you mind sending me a copy of disc image files? Anything up to about 20 MB is fine as just a email attachment. Sounds like you actually have the software running, whats it like, what are you doing with it? Abandoneware is one thing, but this is "throw your customers off a cliffware". Ultimately Sun owns the rights to the TOPS network protocol, at least I think, but Symantec and Farallon pretend this era of product which came with LIFETIME support etc. never existed. I chased after them a few months ago after I bought a batch of NEW full retail box product that had never been registered, and only email response I could get was that they didn't support that product anymore. Wants some fun, buy an EXPENSIVE sealed retail box new old stock product, then without opening the envelope with the discs, send a letter to the company informing them that you are NOT willing to comply with the terms of their license agreement and want a refund of the retail price of the package. From mikeford at socal.rr.com Fri Oct 26 02:28:22 2001 From: mikeford at socal.rr.com (Mike Ford) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:02 2005 Subject: macintosh analogue board reconditioning In-Reply-To: References: from "r. 'bear' stricklin" at Oct 24, 1 10:15:58 pm Message-ID: >> Tony, I'm a module swapper because that's what I know, and usually the > >Well, if you want to swap modules, then replace the analogue board, which >is where the fault almost certainly is :-) This is a case where I think the board level repair is really called for. In fact I recommend that people replace ALL of the known failure mode parts with better quality modern units, clean up all the known poor solder joints etc., and service the floppy drive. Do the job once, do it right, and never have to worry about it again. From jss at subatomix.com Fri Oct 26 02:51:11 2001 From: jss at subatomix.com (Jeffrey S. Sharp) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:02 2005 Subject: value of classic DEC machines? In-Reply-To: <030e01c15cd1$276475e0$3a92a8c0@MAGGIE> Message-ID: <20011026024214.B61447-100000@lepton.subatomix.com> On Wed, 24 Oct 2001, Heinz Wolter wrote: > but you couldn't probably give away an 11/70 Well, I for one would be glad to take an 11/70 away from someone. :-) -- Jeffrey S. Sharp jss@subatomix.com From Innfogra at aol.com Fri Oct 26 03:28:56 2001 From: Innfogra at aol.com (Innfogra@aol.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:02 2005 Subject: IBM 8 Inch Drive Message-ID: <2d.13136800.290a78c8@aol.com> In a message dated 10/26/01 12:00:34 AM Pacific Daylight Time, CAA007216@mail.ono.es writes: > > I asked about it sometime ago. It appears to have > one 37 pin standard interface, but it's not clear what > is (or do) the other connector. > I think this is for the System 32 Datamaster. I don't know what the extra plug is for other than you need both to plug into the system. Paxton Astoria, OR -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20011026/a0488092/attachment.html From wrm at ccii.co.za Fri Oct 26 03:36:13 2001 From: wrm at ccii.co.za (Wouter de Waal) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:02 2005 Subject: Reading non-PC format floppies (+ OT questions :-) Message-ID: <200110260836.KAA24357@ccii.co.za> Iggy sez: >Sellam Ismail skrev: >>Tony, please cut the bullshit already. *snip* >rudeness. Why do you feel such an urge to insult everyone and everything on >this list? Oi, I thought it was funny. Hillarious, even. Sheesh, I would pay real money for a few "programmers" on Tony's level of competence... OBclassiccmp: I'm playing with various bits of hardware as time permits. If anyone has info, please forward, it will help me re-reverse-engineer the wheel... (1) Osborne 1. - Keyboard is shorted internally. Screen reads "insert disk and press Enter" or whatever, then refreshes / redraws all the time. This stops when I unplug the keyboard. I think I know which two pins connect to the Enter key, when I short those two pins same thing happens. I'm suspecting the 8877 FDC chip. Does anyone have: -- Memory (I/O) map -- Schematic (ja sure :-) -- BIOS disassembly -- tips on fixing the keyboard? (2) Apollo DN3000 and DN3500 -- Looks like the monitor/BIOS rom for the 3000 was written in C. Anybody know anything more than this? -- Memory map? -- Schematics? (I kill myself, I know :-) (3) WPC (checks, youch, well, the system is 10 years old, even though my Addams Family will only get there in 2002...) Bank switched 6809. Figured out the memory map and most of what I need to know of the ASIC from the MAME source. How *they* figured it out is anyone's guess, but there's a bunch of hackers worth admiring. -- Generic question... anyone else messing around with WPC? Or Sys80 for that matter? (Haunted House, for those who are still reading :-) Seeya all Wouter www.retro.co.za From wmsmith at earthlink.net Fri Oct 26 03:51:04 2001 From: wmsmith at earthlink.net (Wayne M. Smith) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:02 2005 Subject: IBM 8 Inch Drive References: <2d.13136800.290a78c8@aol.com> Message-ID: <018a01c15dfb$5948c400$3db1b2d1@Smith.earthlink.net> > In a message dated 10/26/01 12:00:34 AM Pacific Daylight Time, > CAA007216@mail.ono.es writes: > > > > > > I asked about it sometime ago. It appears to have > > one 37 pin standard interface, but it's not clear what > > is (or do) the other connector. > > > > I think this is for the System 32 Datamaster. I don't know what the extra > plug is for other than you need both to plug into the system. > > Paxton > Astoria, OR > Perhaps you mean System 23, in which case the relevant dual 8 incher would be a model 5246. From hansp at aconit.org Fri Oct 26 04:43:43 2001 From: hansp at aconit.org (Hans B Pufal) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:02 2005 Subject: Sources for punched cards Message-ID: <3BD9304F.5010203@aconit.org> OK, I remember readding here some time ago that there were still sources of new punched cards in the states. My searches have come up empty. Can anyone point me at a company that still supplies punched cards. I would prefer one in europe but that would probably be asking too much Regards, -- HBP From GOOI at oce.nl Fri Oct 26 06:34:09 2001 From: GOOI at oce.nl (Gooijen H) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:02 2005 Subject: blinkenlights for everybody (?) Message-ID: Hi all. Some weeks ago there was a thread about blinkenlights and consoles. It was mentioned that a simple piece of hardware (just a few resistors two transistors and 16 LEDs) connected to the printer port of a PC can be brought to life when you run Ersatz-11. Well, it took some time for me to decide whether I should go 'public' with a project I intend to embark on. In short: a *_full_* console on a PC that runs Ersatz-11. The reason to announce the project is to get feedback. Am I on the right track. Have a look, on this page (part of my website) you can find a small ZIP file that contains the draft document that descibes it. http://home.hetnet.nl/~tshaj/pdpsite/homebrew/startframe.html Any comment is appreciated. - Henk. From john_boffemmyer_iv at boff-net.dhs.org Fri Oct 26 07:35:36 2001 From: john_boffemmyer_iv at boff-net.dhs.org (John Boffemmyer IV) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:02 2005 Subject: Um, SOL50 fell in my lap In-Reply-To: <000201c15c85$790d3900$b97ba8c0@ne.mediaone.net> References: <5.1.0.14.2.20011023233434.009de500@sokieserv.dhs.org> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20011026083447.009dde90@sokieserv.dhs.org> Yes, I'm in lower NY state, right off Interstate 84, it's a little rathole called Newburgh =) -John At 08:14 AM 10/24/01, you wrote: >I'm in Boston...are you any where near here? > >-----Original Message----- >From: owner-classiccmp@classiccmp.org >[mailto:owner-classiccmp@classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of John Boffemmyer IV >Sent: Tuesday, October 23, 2001 11:36 PM >To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org >Subject: RE: Um, SOL50 fell in my lap > >Sorry Chandra =( Where from? Maybe I can meet up with ya and and you can > >loan it for a while? It is a nifty item to tinker with. >-John > >At 07:46 PM 10/23/01, you wrote: > >Some guys have all the luck! :-) > >Congrats! > >-Chandra > > > > > >-----Original Message----- > >From: owner-classiccmp@classiccmp.org > >[mailto:owner-classiccmp@classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of John Boffemmyer >IV > >Sent: Tuesday, October 23, 2001 9:18 AM > >To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org > >Subject: Um, SOL50 fell in my lap > > > >some old guy handed me a SOL50 with teletype, working and a huge box of > >documentation, boards, etc. also, 2 thinkertoys 750mb external drives > >for > >it. no monitor though. nice toy =) > >-John > > > >---------------------------------------- > >Founder, Lead Writer, Tech Analyst > >and Web Designer Boff-Net Technologies > >http://boff-net.dhs.org/index.html > >--------------------------------------- > >---------------------------------------- >Founder, Lead Writer, Tech Analyst >and Web Designer Boff-Net Technologies >http://boff-net.dhs.org/index.html >--------------------------------------- ---------------------------------------- Founder, Lead Writer, Tech Analyst and Web Designer Boff-Net Technologies http://boff-net.dhs.org/index.html --------------------------------------- From john_boffemmyer_iv at boff-net.dhs.org Fri Oct 26 07:39:01 2001 From: john_boffemmyer_iv at boff-net.dhs.org (John Boffemmyer IV) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:02 2005 Subject: Um, SOL50 fell in my lap In-Reply-To: References: <000001c15c82$7c50f9b0$0201a8c0@bob> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20011026083739.00a5d1b0@sokieserv.dhs.org> Verified with a source, Sol50 from Processor Technologies. Correction on drives: 7.50MB, not 750, but yes, 10" wide and not floppies. -John At 02:00 PM 10/24/01, you wrote: >On Wed, 24 Oct 2001, Bob Stek wrote: > > > Do you mean a SOL-20 by Processor Technology? Also, Morrow Designs > > (Thinkertoys) made 8" SS DD and DS DD floppy drives - 512k to 1024k. > > > > Or are you referring to something completely different? > >I'm still awaiting the reply on the message I sent asking what a SOL50 is >myself. Maybe he meant SOL-20, as I am pretty certain there was never a >SOL-50, and I know of no other computer that used that designation. > >Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival >------------------------------------------------------------------------------ >International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org ---------------------------------------- Founder, Lead Writer, Tech Analyst and Web Designer Boff-Net Technologies http://boff-net.dhs.org/index.html --------------------------------------- From foxvideo at wincom.net Fri Oct 26 07:48:58 2001 From: foxvideo at wincom.net (Charles E. Fox) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:02 2005 Subject: IBM 8 Inch Drive In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20011026084420.00a864d0@mail.wincom.net> At 05:18 PM 25/10/2001 -0500, you wrote: >A dual IBM 8" diskette drive is for sale on eBay: > >http://cgi.ebay.com/aw-cgi/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=1287758038 > >It looks like the Display Writer drives to me. Will it work with a System/36 >5362? The connector on the drive looks like it matches the connector on my >5362. Yes, it is a #6360 from a display writer. It has a 25 pin male connector and a 37 pin female plus power. I have had one here for several years trying to figure out something useful for it. The only thing else I can tell you is that it uses soft sector disks. If anyone can come up with a circuit diagram for it, it would be much appreciated. Regards Charlie Fox Chas E. Fox Video Productions 793 Argyle Rd. Windsor ON N8Y 3J8 foxvideo@wincom.net Check out: Camcorder Kindergarten at http://chasfoxvideo.com From kentborg at borg.org Fri Oct 26 08:05:53 2001 From: kentborg at borg.org (Kent Borg) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:02 2005 Subject: MacOS DHCP Server? In-Reply-To: ; from mikeford@socal.rr.com on Fri, Oct 26, 2001 at 12:14:00AM -0700 References: Message-ID: <20011026090553.A15964@borg.org> On Fri, Oct 26, 2001 at 12:14:00AM -0700, Mike Ford wrote: > Abandoneware is one thing [...] > Wants some fun, buy an EXPENSIVE sealed retail box new old stock product, > then without opening the envelope with the discs, send a letter to the > company informing them that you are NOT willing to comply with the terms of > their license agreement and want a refund of the retail price of the > package. Interesting idea. If I buy a book I own that copy, not the right to copy it, not a "license" forming an agreement between me and some other party, but I own the book itself. Familiar stuff. Proprietary software, which always seems to be "licensed" and never sold, might put an extra burden on the copyright holder: to actually exist at the other end of the license. If they aren't there to accept, say, a purchaser's inability to abide by their license, does that constitute their breaking the license and thereby release the buyer from the license terms too? Might that be a way to forfeit copyrights? A book owner might also have a hard time tracking down the current holder of a copyright, but as there isn't a "license" relationship between them, what need is there? -kb From uban at ubanproductions.com Fri Oct 26 08:07:48 2001 From: uban at ubanproductions.com (Tom Uban) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:02 2005 Subject: blinkenlights for everybody (?) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.20011026080748.00943500@ubanproductions.com> Nice job Henk! It looks like you have a fine idea... --tom At 01:34 PM 10/26/01 +0200, you wrote: > Hi all. > >Some weeks ago there was a thread about blinkenlights and consoles. >It was mentioned that a simple piece of hardware (just a few >resistors two transistors and 16 LEDs) connected to the printer port >of a PC can be brought to life when you run Ersatz-11. >Well, it took some time for me to decide whether I should go 'public' >with a project I intend to embark on. >In short: a *_full_* console on a PC that runs Ersatz-11. >The reason to announce the project is to get feedback. Am I on the >right track. Have a look, on this page (part of my website) you can >find a small ZIP file that contains the draft document that descibes >it. > >http://home.hetnet.nl/~tshaj/pdpsite/homebrew/startframe.html > >Any comment is appreciated. > >- Henk. > > > > From edick at idcomm.com Fri Oct 26 08:20:48 2001 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:02 2005 Subject: VLB SCSI? References: <200110251529.f9PFTE003375@narnia.int.dittman.net> <3BD79436.8327AB4E@internet1.net> Message-ID: <001101c15e21$072ce900$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> The AHA2842 is a narrow-SCSI card, though it's possibly the best ADAPTEC ever produced. I've been using them for years without a hitch, while their newer cards, (2940, 3940, 3985, etc) seem to bring with them both a short life and lots of compatibility issues. Unfortunately, the VLB is alread a "classic" feature, having been "dead" now for over a decade. Dick ----- Original Message ----- From: "Chad Fernandez" To: Sent: Wednesday, October 24, 2001 10:25 PM Subject: Re: VLB SCSI? > Shoot..... I've wanted a VLB SCSI card! The Adaptec would have been > perfect. Tell me, is the 2842 wide or narrow? > > Chad Fernandez > Michigan, USA > > Eric Dittman wrote: > > > > > Does anyone have a VLB system that needs a VLB SCSI controllers? > > > I have an Ultrastor 34F and an Adaptec 2842 free, just pay shipping. > > > Otherwise, I'll just toss them. > > > > That was fast. They've been claimed. > > > > Thanks. > > -- > > Eric Dittman > > dittman@dittman.net > > Check out the DEC Enthusiasts Club at http://www.dittman.net/ > > From jfoust at threedee.com Fri Oct 26 08:45:56 2001 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:03 2005 Subject: Price guide for vintage computers In-Reply-To: <20011026043759.KCXT14515.imf04bis.bellsouth.net@thegoodw> Message-ID: <4.3.2.7.0.20011026083238.02238a90@pc> At 12:36 AM 10/26/01 -0400, Glen Goodwin wrote: >For vintage computers, a price guide published 2-4 times yearly, listing >maybe 500 computers, might work. It could be advantageous to only include >photos for 50 of these computers in each issue, rotating through all 500. >This would encourage people to buy the next issue, with photos of 50 >*different* machines. I'd be very surprised if the "classic computer collector" market is large enough to support anyone publishing such a guide. What you describe would be a lot of work, even if you published on CD-R or web site instead of paper or enacted other capital-saving measures. To give a little praise where it's due, I'm sure Sellam could tell stories about the tremendous amount of work involved in putting on a convention like VCF. But consider there's still at least one annual Amiga-oriented show, and it appears to draw at least as many if not more attendees and paying exhibitors as a VCF. Talk about dead markets... My software company's Amiga versions hung on far longer than made any sense, yet the Amiga versions were discontinued at least six years ago, and they're still sending me flyers describing their conventions. And although eBay appears to be doing nothing with all that pricing information of all their past auctions, you never know. Maybe they have a splinter company under another name that's already selling the data. Maybe they're saving it all onto endless piles of DLTs and they'll massage it someday. Or maybe it's all falling into the bit bucket - who knows. If they're saving it, I wonder if they were smart enough to cache the externally hosted images. On the other hand, I bet that if you published a price guide in any market and directly noted that you derived your price info from eBay auctions, they'd smack you with legal paper urging you to cease and desist from mining their property without permission. - John From DAW at yalepress3.unipress.yale.edu Fri Oct 26 08:56:11 2001 From: DAW at yalepress3.unipress.yale.edu (David Woyciesjes) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:03 2005 Subject: OT: Re: Periodic rants on eBay Message-ID: <9011A52E011ED311B4280004AC1BA615014671C5@yalepress3.unipress.yale.edu> ! > You know, if someone is going to be an excited collector, ! > they should be ! > an EDUCATED collector. ALL macs up thru the Plus and part ! > way thru the SE ! > were signed on the inside by the original design team. ! ! For that matter, my IIcis both have the signatures in the ! bottom of the case. Where exactly in the bottom? I'll have to check mine... --- David A Woyciesjes --- C & IS Support Specialist --- Yale University Press --- mailto:david.woyciesjes@yale.edu --- (203) 432-0953 --- ICQ # - 905818 From fernande at internet1.net Thu Oct 25 09:05:33 2001 From: fernande at internet1.net (Chad Fernandez) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:03 2005 Subject: VLB SCSI? References: <200110251529.f9PFTE003375@narnia.int.dittman.net> <3BD79436.8327AB4E@internet1.net> <001101c15e21$072ce900$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> Message-ID: <3BD81C2D.D7FBFDE8@internet1.net> I've got a pair of 2940u2w's that work well for me. The only time I have ever had a problem, an updated driver fixed it for me. Amazingly enough it was the Adaptec software that cam with my cd-rw drive that would crash the computer until I updated the SCSI adapter driver. Chad Fernandez Michigan, USA Richard Erlacher wrote: > > The AHA2842 is a narrow-SCSI card, though it's possibly the best ADAPTEC ever > produced. I've been using them for years without a hitch, while their newer > cards, (2940, 3940, 3985, etc) seem to bring with them both a short life and > lots of compatibility issues. > > Unfortunately, the VLB is alread a "classic" feature, having been "dead" now for > over a decade. > > Dick From pechter at ureach.com Fri Oct 26 09:18:33 2001 From: pechter at ureach.com (Bill Pechter) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:03 2005 Subject: blinkenlights for everybody (?) Message-ID: <200110261418.KAA06016@stage21.ureach.com> ---- On Fri, 26 Oct 2001, Gooijen H (GOOI@oce.nl) wrote: > Hi all. > > Some weeks ago there was a thread about blinkenlights and consoles. > It was mentioned that a simple piece of hardware (just a few > resistors two transistors and 16 LEDs) connected to the printer port > of a PC can be brought to life when you run Ersatz-11. > Well, it took some time for me to decide whether I should go 'public' > with a project I intend to embark on. > In short: a *_full_* console on a PC that runs Ersatz-11. > The reason to announce the project is to get feedback. Am I on the > right track. Have a look, on this page (part of my website) you can > find a small ZIP file that contains the draft document that descibes > it. > > http://home.hetnet.nl/~tshaj/pdpsite/homebrew/startframe.html > > Any comment is appreciated. > > - Henk. > > > > > Great piece of work... I'm going to have to see if I can build one as well. Bill -- Bill Pechter Systems Administrator uReach Technologies 732-335-5432 (Work) 877-661-2126 (Fax) From lemay at cs.umn.edu Fri Oct 26 10:05:18 2001 From: lemay at cs.umn.edu (Lawrence LeMay) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:03 2005 Subject: Sources for punched cards In-Reply-To: <3BD9304F.5010203@aconit.org> Message-ID: <200110261505.KAA29156@caesar.cs.umn.edu> I'm pretty sure this guy still has cards to sell: http://web.wt.net/~key129/ -Lawrence LeMay > OK, I remember readding here some time ago that there were still sources > of new punched cards in the states. My searches have come up empty. > > Can anyone point me at a company that still supplies punched cards. I > would prefer one in europe but that would probably be asking too much > > Regards, > > -- HBP > From edick at idcomm.com Fri Oct 26 10:07:41 2001 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:03 2005 Subject: VLB SCSI? References: <200110251529.f9PFTE003375@narnia.int.dittman.net> <3BD79436.8327AB4E@internet1.net> <001101c15e21$072ce900$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> <3BD81C2D.D7FBFDE8@internet1.net> Message-ID: <000901c15e2f$f56b2c40$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> I've got a box full of various models of AHA2940 and 3940 that don't work in all systems, and most of them don't work in any system at all. Most of them exhibit one of two symptoms. (1) they don't work in systems with a bus clock >25 MHz, or (2) they don't find any SCSI devices, irrespective of the fact that other 2940's, among others, find them just fine. The longest I've ever had a 2940AU (the only type that seems to work in all applications) last is 6 months. Fortunately, the old 152x types and 151x types seem to keep on going ... None of these problems appear when the 29XX and 39XX boards are used under Netware, but once they've been used under Windows, their days are numbered. None of these problems appear with the VLB boards. Dick ----- Original Message ----- From: "Chad Fernandez" To: Sent: Thursday, October 25, 2001 8:05 AM Subject: Re: VLB SCSI? > I've got a pair of 2940u2w's that work well for me. The only time I > have ever had a problem, an updated driver fixed it for me. Amazingly > enough it was the Adaptec software that cam with my cd-rw drive that > would crash the computer until I updated the SCSI adapter driver. > > Chad Fernandez > Michigan, USA > > Richard Erlacher wrote: > > > > The AHA2842 is a narrow-SCSI card, though it's possibly the best ADAPTEC ever > > produced. I've been using them for years without a hitch, while their newer > > cards, (2940, 3940, 3985, etc) seem to bring with them both a short life and > > lots of compatibility issues. > > > > Unfortunately, the VLB is alread a "classic" feature, having been "dead" now for > > over a decade. > > > > Dick > > From dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com Fri Oct 26 10:12:57 2001 From: dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com (Douglas Quebbeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:03 2005 Subject: VLB SCSI? Message-ID: <7A9BACCEF0171D4FB77019F5104CDD37225834@jeffserver.tegjeff.com> > The AHA2842 is a narrow-SCSI card, though it's possibly the best ADAPTEC ever > produced. I've been using them for years without a hitch, while their newer > cards, (2940, 3940, 3985, etc) seem to bring with them both a short life and > lots of compatibility issues. > > Unfortunately, the VLB is alread a "classic" feature, having been "dead" now for > over a decade. While I'm sure they exist (i.e. EISA ones), I don't have any 486 motherboards that aren't VLB boards, the most recent of which was bought new in 1994. Still, while not-quite-classic, VLB sure isn't leading the industry... -dq From vaxman at qwest.net Fri Oct 26 10:16:38 2001 From: vaxman at qwest.net (Clint Wolff (VAX collector)) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:03 2005 Subject: Falling off the internet Message-ID: I just received notification from Qwest that I am being moved to MSN, so I will be falling off the internet for a while until I get a new DSL provider hooked up. If there is desire to reach me, my work email is: clintw@colorado.cirrus.com Y'all be good, and play nice together :) Clint From dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com Fri Oct 26 10:27:43 2001 From: dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com (Douglas Quebbeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:03 2005 Subject: Um, SOL50 fell in my lap Message-ID: <7A9BACCEF0171D4FB77019F5104CDD37225835@jeffserver.tegjeff.com> > Verified with a source, Sol50 from Processor Technologies. Company was named Processor Technology, not Processor Technologies. I join with others in failing to recall a SOL-50 in the line. Possibly, a third-party reselling re-labeled it to distinguish his value-added package from the standard SOL-PC, SOL-10, and SOL-20 which were what the firms actually sold. A Z-80 upgrade for the SOL that I recently sold came with a new nameplate to rename the machine 'ZOL' instead of 'SOL'; maybe we're looking at a similar phenomenon. Regards, -doug q From Innfogra at aol.com Fri Oct 26 10:39:32 2001 From: Innfogra at aol.com (Innfogra@aol.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:03 2005 Subject: IBM 8 Inch Drive Message-ID: In a message dated 10/26/01 2:03:09 AM Pacific Daylight Time, wmsmith@earthlink.net writes: > > Perhaps you mean System 23, in which case the relevant dual > 8 incher would be a model 5246. > You are right I was thinking of the System 23. Hmm, if that drive number is 5246 then this one must be for the Displaywriter. Paxton -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20011026/89044f91/attachment.html From deckergear at hotmail.com Fri Oct 26 11:00:44 2001 From: deckergear at hotmail.com (Richard Decker) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:03 2005 Subject: Still seeking Televideo TS-803 Message-ID: <3BD988AC.2D664746@hotmail.com> I HAVE WHAT U ARE LOOKING FOR. I NEED TO GET DATA FROM 5 1/4 TO WINDOWS MACHINE. ANY SUGGESTIONS? AFTER THAT I WANT TO GET RID OF THE 803. RESPOND ASAP TO SAVE MY BUTT!! THANKS From cisin at xenosoft.com Fri Oct 26 11:09:18 2001 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin (XenoSoft)) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:03 2005 Subject: Um, SOL50 fell in my lap In-Reply-To: <7A9BACCEF0171D4FB77019F5104CDD37225835@jeffserver.tegjeff.com> Message-ID: On Fri, 26 Oct 2001, Douglas Quebbeman wrote: > Company was named Processor Technology, not Processor Technologies. And sometimes referred to by its own people as "Proctology" From r.stek at snet.net Fri Oct 26 11:19:58 2001 From: r.stek at snet.net (Bob Stek) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:03 2005 Subject: Um, SOL50 fell in my lap Message-ID: <000001c15e3a$0eace310$0201a8c0@bob> I'm still a little confused. Processor Technology Corp. (not Processor Technologies - couldn't find a reference for them on the web) best known machine was the Sol-20 - 8080 based in a blue metal cabinet, keyboard built in, with walnut wood sides. They supposedly made a small number of Sol-10's, and were planning on both an S-100 color board and a revised Sol - a Sol-II? Not sure of the name. Could what you have be a prototype? Their Helios drives were also packaged in a blue case and the drives were mounted vertically. I have owned Morrow assembled Discus 8" floppies, their first 5.25" hard drives (5, 10, 15 and 20 MB IIRC), and have worked on a 14" Morrow hard drive. I don't recall a 10" wide 7.50 MB drive. I do recall and had owned a 15 MB 5.25" drive from Morrow - I suppose if it had a bad platter it could have been sold as a 7.5 MB drive. IIRC, their drives just had the standard Shugart or Seagate black face plate and activity LED sticking out of a non-descript chassis with power supply, and had ribbon cables to attach to the S-100 controller card. Are we any closer to identifying this machine? Bob Stek Saver of Lost Sols From cisin at xenosoft.com Fri Oct 26 11:29:56 2001 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin (XenoSoft)) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:03 2005 Subject: SLOT 8 (was: ISA cards for free.. In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.2.20011025222532.0288ffa8@pop.azstarnet.com> Message-ID: Sorry for the flippancy. No, the PC doesn't have that problem, and it's not related to the position relative to the power supply, other than that being a convenient way to identify it. I have no idea why IBM did that. Perhaps intending it for some "special" card that would need it, such as a coprocessor? Maybe Tony could explain why somebody would design it that way. -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin@xenosoft.com From ghldbrd at ccp.com Fri Oct 26 11:33:52 2001 From: ghldbrd at ccp.com (Gary Hildebrand) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:03 2005 Subject: Price guide for vintage computers References: <20011026043759.KCXT14515.imf04bis.bellsouth.net@thegoodw> Message-ID: <3BD99070.D99CB73C@ccp.com> Would be nice, but since we do live in a throwaway soceity, I don't think there would be that much interest, considering most people look down their noses at Amiga's, cp/m machines, and any of the old 8 bit classics. Maybe on the order of the Catalog of American Cars published by Old Cars/Kruse. I'd like one just as a cruise down memory lane, when computers were expensive, and the OS's were a challenge, not a mass of newly invented bugs. Sorry, Billy . . . Gary Hildebrand Glen Goodwin wrote: > > > >Luckily, some manner of salvation is on its way in the form of a price > > >guide. No, I'm not writing it, but the person who is will make it known > > >very soon. > > > > Maybe it will make some money for the author, but prices are just too > > variable and too fast changing for a printed guide to be of much > practical > > use. What I would rather see is a hunters handbook, say 125 pages with > the > > top 500 things to look for, each item getting an average of a 1/4 page > for > > a photo, or maybe a shared photo, with a description and price range. > Sell > > one to every scrapper in the world, and those 500 things become a LOT > more > > available. > > > > working title, "How much money did you throw away today?" > > In any hobby, a price guide is both a blessing and a curse. When I owned a > sports card shop I became aware of the potential effects of price fixing > and other forms of market manipulation. Specifically, if the publisher of > a price guide had a bunch of Don Drysdale and Sandy Koufax cards to dump, > those players would book high until he dumped his cards. Additionally, > advertiser pressure influenced prices listed in these books. > > For vintage computers, a price guide published 2-4 times yearly, listing > maybe 500 computers, might work. It could be advantageous to only include > photos for 50 of these computers in each issue, rotating through all 500. > This would encourage people to buy the next issue, with photos of 50 > *different* machines. > > We have Ebay now, and other auction sites, from which to draw data. The > publication might also consider any documentable, verifiable report from > private buyers and sellers when compiling the price guide. > > And since when can your average scrapper read, anyway? > > Just my two cents . . . > > Glen > 0/0 From Robert_Feldman at jdedwards.com Fri Oct 26 11:36:17 2001 From: Robert_Feldman at jdedwards.com (Feldman, Robert) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:03 2005 Subject: Osborne 1 Keyboard (was RE: Reading non-PC format floppies (+ OT questions :-)) Message-ID: I have an Osborne 1 Technical manual which has info on the keyboard and some schematics, as well as a printout of the BIOS source. I'm out of town now, so I'll try to get it (at least keyboard info, as the BIOS source is many pages) to you on Monday. Bob Feldman -----Original Message----- From: wrm@ccii.co.za To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org Sent: 10/26/01 2:36 AM Subject: Re: Reading non-PC format floppies (+ OT questions :-) (1) Osborne 1. - Keyboard is shorted internally. Screen reads "insert disk and press Enter" or whatever, then refreshes / redraws all the time. This stops when I unplug the keyboard. I think I know which two pins connect to the Enter key, when I short those two pins same thing happens. I'm suspecting the 8877 FDC chip. Does anyone have: -- Memory (I/O) map -- Schematic (ja sure :-) -- BIOS disassembly -- tips on fixing the keyboard? Wouter www.retro.co.za From hansp at aconit.org Fri Oct 26 11:51:56 2001 From: hansp at aconit.org (Hans B Pufal) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:03 2005 Subject: Sources for punched cards References: <200110261505.KAA29156@caesar.cs.umn.edu> Message-ID: <3BD994AC.2060203@aconit.org> Lawrence LeMay wrote: > I'm pretty sure this guy still has cards to sell: > > http://web.wt.net/~key129/ > > -Lawrence LeMay Thanks, now that I see this site I remember looking at it before but did not bookmark it. Is there any search facility for the CCCMP archives? The links on the web page are stale. -- HBP - From allain at panix.com Fri Oct 26 12:33:55 2001 From: allain at panix.com (John Allain) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:03 2005 Subject: Price guide for vintage computers References: <20011026043759.KCXT14515.imf04bis.bellsouth.net@thegoodw> <3BD99070.D99CB73C@ccp.com> Message-ID: <03d301c15e44$638a9c60$8a0101ac@ibm23xhr06> > ...when computers were expensive, and the OS's were a > challenge, not a mass of newly _invented_ bugs. I believe we're supposed to say 'newly Innovated' bugs... as in "InnoVeeeshin". John A. Now... Windows(tm) "UXB" From fernande at internet1.net Thu Oct 25 12:51:11 2001 From: fernande at internet1.net (Chad Fernandez) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:03 2005 Subject: VLB SCSI? References: <7A9BACCEF0171D4FB77019F5104CDD37225834@jeffserver.tegjeff.com> Message-ID: <3BD8510F.738341B1@internet1.net> I only have 1 VLB motherboard, and one card. It is lowest number of cards for a given card type that I own :-) Oh wait, I only have one AGP card, so I guess AGP and VLB are tied in my collection. I have had lots of EISA, Microchannel, and ISA cards. Only 5 or 6 PCI cards, and most of those are recent acquisitions. I would consider VLB to be classic, or at least "legacy". I guess it depends on the definition. I don't think any VLB cards have been shipped for quite some time. They were mainly a 486 class bus. Did any Pentium or 386 class motherboards come with VLB slots? Chad Fernandez Michigan, USA Douglas Quebbeman wrote: > While I'm sure they exist (i.e. EISA ones), I don't have any 486 motherboards > that aren't VLB boards, the most recent of which was bought new in 1994. > > Still, while not-quite-classic, VLB sure isn't leading the industry... > > -dq From fernande at internet1.net Thu Oct 25 12:57:12 2001 From: fernande at internet1.net (Chad Fernandez) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:03 2005 Subject: Falling off the internet References: Message-ID: <3BD85278.CAECE909@internet1.net> Did that JUST get announced? I knew about that about a month ago, or more. I assumed it was already happening when I heard about it. I have a relative that does tech support for Quest :-) Chad Fernandez Michigan, USA "Clint Wolff (VAX collector)" wrote: > > I just received notification from Qwest that I am being moved to > MSN, so I will be falling off the internet for a while until I > get a new DSL provider hooked up. > > If there is desire to reach me, my work email is: > > clintw@colorado.cirrus.com > > Y'all be good, and play nice together :) > > Clint From menadeau at mediaone.net Fri Oct 26 13:05:05 2001 From: menadeau at mediaone.net (Michael Nadeau) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:03 2005 Subject: Vintage NASA software available References: <20011026043759.KCXT14515.imf04bis.bellsouth.net@thegoodw> <3BD99070.D99CB73C@ccp.com> Message-ID: <018e01c15e48$c194df60$0b01a8c0@ValuedCustomer> Open Channel Software is making old NASA applications available for download. There is a fee involved for what's called the NASA Classics collection, and the goal is to encourage commercial development of the applications. The list is at http://www.openchannelsoftware.com/NASA_1.html. I have no connection with OCS or NASA, but just happened to come across a press release about the offer. --Mike Michael Nadeau Editorial Services 603-893-2379 From mpasser at CSTP.UMKC.EDU Fri Oct 26 13:42:02 2001 From: mpasser at CSTP.UMKC.EDU (Michael Passer) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:03 2005 Subject: Vintage NASA software available References: <20011026043759.KCXT14515.imf04bis.bellsouth.net@thegoodw> <3BD99070.D99CB73C@ccp.com> <018e01c15e48$c194df60$0b01a8c0@ValuedCustomer> Message-ID: <000601c15e4d$e720be20$8e8fc186@umkcpi> I'm a little confused. If this software was developed by NASA to begin with and is unclassified, shouldn't it be in the public domain anyway, having been developed with taxpayer dollars? > Open Channel Software is making old NASA applications available for > download. There is a fee involved . . . From UberTechnoid at home.com Fri Oct 26 13:47:47 2001 From: UberTechnoid at home.com (UberTechnoid@home.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:03 2005 Subject: The new VAX is alive! In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20011026184208.VAIS4145.femail42.sdc1.sfba.home.com@BENCHBOX> Now all you need do is go to http://www.montagar.com, join the DECUS user's group and get your OpenVMS cdrom. It contains things like TCP/IP and quite a few 'layered' products such as Basic, Fortran, Cobol, etcetera. Regards, Jeff In , on 07/24/01 at 10:45 PM, "R. D. Davis" said: >This afternoon, I ordered, and then picked up, a cable with MMJ >connectors on it from Control Cable (they're in Woodlawn, MD) - a nice >place to deal with; they specialize in cabling and related products, and >what they sell appears to be of very good quality. The cost of the >assembled cable was only a few cents different from their cost for a >cable and two MMJ connectors, and was under US$5; of course, I had to pay >US$5 extra since the order was under US$50, but that was no worse than >shipping would have been if I'd ordered them from elsewhere. >After connecting the VT320 to the VAX, I reset the system password. >Fortunately, this VAX has the "real VMS" (TM) for VAXen on it: VAX/VMS, >and it's a reasonably recent version: 5.5, which was close to the lastest >version of VMS back when I last worked with a VAX for an employer, back >around 1992. :-) >This far, I haven't noticed anything truly remarkable with regards to >software, although at first glance, it looks like nothing is missing. >Fortunately, someone installed kermit, so that will make things, such as >installing TCP/IP, easier. :-) >There appears to be a fair amount of audio software, which I think may >all be for use with that DECVoice system; text to voice software, for >example. Since I don't have a T1 telephone connection, alas, it appears >that I'm not going to be able to use this DECVoice hardware, and the >audio software on this machine. >Also, there's a mention of SQL in one of the text files that I looked >through, although I didn't notice any database software installed; of >course, I don't know the names of databases using SQL for VAXen. >DECnet is installed and apparently configured, so I guess this means that >I can use my DEC terminal server with this machine... do I need to do >anything other than connect the terminal server to the VAX and then use >it? I know nothing about DECnet. >Of course, there's still the little matter of no tape drive being >installed in this system, which is not a good thing. I have a TK70 and a >TK50, along with a TKQ70 board. >-- >Copyright (C) 2001 R. D. Davis The difference between humans & other >animals: All Rights Reserved an unnatural belief that we're >above Nature & rdd@rddavis.net 410-744-4900 her other creatures, using >dogma to justify such http://www.rddavis.net beliefs and to >justify much human cruelty. -- ----------------------------------------------------------- Jeffrey S. Worley Asheville, NC USA 828-6984887 UberTechnoid@Home.com ----------------------------------------------------------- From UberTechnoid at home.com Fri Oct 26 13:56:39 2001 From: UberTechnoid at home.com (UberTechnoid@home.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:03 2005 Subject: Reading data from a CDC Hawk Drive In-Reply-To: <200107231246.f6NCkJJ10499@bg-tc-ppp57.monmouth.com> Message-ID: <20011026184925.XNBC12089.femail27.sdc1.sfba.home.com@BENCHBOX> Computer Parts Barn might well have documentation and a controller or two. Those drives are MONSTERS. Data General machines used them too. Regards, Jeff In <200107231246.f6NCkJJ10499@bg-tc-ppp57.monmouth.com>, on 07/23/01 at 08:46 AM, Bill Pechter said: >> Thanks for looking. The references point to Seagate's later Hawk drives. >> The drive I am talking about is a tad bigger! An internal fixed disk, and >> a top loading pack on the same spindle. The disk packs are of a similar >> size to RK05 packs, albeit top loading rather the front. >> >> I have a vague idea they were also used on early Diablo machines. >> >> Kevin >There were similar drives from Ampex -- >Interdata/Perkin-Elmer/Concurrent had them... >Perhaps this will jar someone's memory. >Bill -- ----------------------------------------------------------- Jeffrey S. Worley Asheville, NC USA 828-6984887 UberTechnoid@Home.com ----------------------------------------------------------- From foo at siconic.com Fri Oct 26 14:04:09 2001 From: foo at siconic.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:03 2005 Subject: Um, SOL50 fell in my lap In-Reply-To: <7A9BACCEF0171D4FB77019F5104CDD37225835@jeffserver.tegjeff.com> Message-ID: On Fri, 26 Oct 2001, Douglas Quebbeman wrote: > Possibly, a third-party reselling re-labeled it to distinguish his > value-added package from the standard SOL-PC, SOL-10, and SOL-20 which > were what the firms actually sold. A Z-80 upgrade for the SOL that I > recently sold came with a new nameplate to rename the machine 'ZOL' > instead of 'SOL'; maybe we're looking at a similar phenomenon. Quite possibly. I think the nameplate was intended to be rebadged by anyone who wanted to resell it. Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org From gunther at aurora.regenstrief.org Fri Oct 26 14:20:57 2001 From: gunther at aurora.regenstrief.org (Gunther Schadow) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:03 2005 Subject: first step getting VAX 6000-400 booted ... References: <004c01c15cf6$e59ce720$de2c67cb@helpdesk> <3BD8432B.575D11E5@aurora.regenstrief.org> Message-ID: <3BD9B799.6C351149@aurora.regenstrief.org> Well, it still doesn't work. I booted again VMS from TK (takes hours) trying various combinations of hardware and no success. I have given the RA90 a device address of 1. I have tried it on both the KDB50 and the KDM70 without success. Now I am wondering whether the SDI cable crossover issue is the problem? But why can Geoff run his RA90 in the basement of his 6000? The specifications clearly say that you can do this: KDB50---->VAXbulkhead---->SA800bulkhead---->RA90 and Geoff does this KDB50---->VAXbulkhead---->RA90. So, the swapping issue seems more complicated than just an uneven number of SDI cables! But I did exactly what Geoff did! Or did he do it differently? How? May be there are two sorts of SDI cables with or without cross-over? Whether or not I have the disk drive connected, the KDB90 shows the red LEDs as B - blink o - off X - on o - off which according to the manual is what it should be. The KDB50 shows this pattern as soon as it's being initialized by VMS. However, VMS never detects any actual drive. So how could I possibly test this link between KDB50 and drive. It could be any of this: - KDB50 SDI interface damaged but in a way that is not detected by the self-test - KDB50 backplane cabling not screwed on tightly enough - SDI cabling broken - SDI cabling mismatched (crossover issue) - RA90 SDI interface damaged but in a way that is not detected by the self-test Is there any resident test that will check the drive/host interaction without requiring me to wait for another VMS boot cycle. Each attempt at rewiring and rebooting costs me about one hour for the VMS to boot from TK again so I need to keep this minimal. Is there any remote chance someone has a diagnostic tape where these things could be tested more thorroughly? I'd very keenly interested in such diagnosis tapes for KDB50/ RA90, and KLESI/TU81 (because that's not being detected by VMS either). Do we know the pinouts and signal patterns of the SDI (and BTW the KLESI) so that I oculd use my scope to detect if the wiring is O.K.? I didn't find pinouts and signals in the KDB50, RA9x user manual (or the KLESI user manual respectively). I should be moving one of my HSC90s and SA800 into the basement and connect the CI cabling star coupler and everything. Last time the HSC's run they were fine ('bout a year ago). However, my back still hurts from moving the TU81 downstairs and I wanted to give it a rest ... no such luck though :-/ thanks, -Gunther -- Gunther_Schadow-------------------------------http://aurora.rg.iupui.edu Regenstrief Institute for Health Care 1050 Wishard Blvd., Indianapolis IN 46202, Phone: (317) 630 7960 schadow@aurora.rg.iupui.edu------------------#include From korpela at ssl.berkeley.edu Fri Oct 26 14:31:56 2001 From: korpela at ssl.berkeley.edu (Eric J. Korpela) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:03 2005 Subject: Vintage NASA software available In-Reply-To: <000601c15e4d$e720be20$8e8fc186@umkcpi> from Michael Passer at "Oct 26, 2001 01:42:02 pm" Message-ID: <200110261931.MAA26100@ellie.ssl.berkeley.edu> > I'm a little confused. If this software was developed by NASA to begin with > and is unclassified, shouldn't it be in the public domain anyway, having > been developed with taxpayer dollars? Not necessarily. Making software public costs time and money. Much of the software developed by NASA really doesn't have widespread application. Some of it is too sensitive for release, such as the onboard software for HST. Some of it is subject to export restrictions. Some of it is classified. Eric From rdd at smart.net Fri Oct 26 14:51:18 2001 From: rdd at smart.net (R. D. Davis) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:03 2005 Subject: The new VAX is alive! In-Reply-To: <20011026184208.VAIS4145.femail42.sdc1.sfba.home.com@BENCHBOX> Message-ID: On Fri, 26 Oct 2001 UberTechnoid@Home.com wrote: > Now all you need do is go to http://www.montagar.com, join the DECUS > user's group and get your OpenVMS cdrom. It contains things like TCP/IP > and quite a few 'layered' products such as Basic, Fortran, Cobol, > etcetera. That, I want! :-) Of course, I don't have a huge amount of memory in the VAX, so perhaps I'd be better off just staying with what I have. While I've joined DECUS, I've not ordered the OpenVMS CD-ROM yet since I have no way of reading the CD-ROM since I don't have a SCSI card in my VAX; I'm going to have to find a VAXstation to use for reading a CD-ROM and then figure out how to get the files from the VAXstation to the VAX (can I do this over DECnet?). Also, I should get a tape drive installed as well for backups, as this VAX is missing both a tape drive and the mounting hardware for the tape drive... the drive itself is no problem, as I have one of those; just need to find the TKQ50 and the mounting hardware. -- Copyright (C) 2001 R. D. Davis The difference between humans & other animals: All Rights Reserved an unnatural belief that we're above Nature & rdd@rddavis.net 410-744-4900 her other creatures, using dogma to justify such http://www.rddavis.net beliefs and to justify much human cruelty. From mythtech at Mac.com Fri Oct 26 14:44:56 2001 From: mythtech at Mac.com (Chris) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:03 2005 Subject: MacOS DHCP Server? Message-ID: >Sounds like you actually have the software running, whats it like, what are >you doing with it? >From the PC side of things, it is just being used to access a networked printer over our old AppleTalk network. I have just been too lazy to upgrade that wing of the building to Ethernet to match the rest of the place. So they use the old TeleNet network, and that now terminates in my office, where it routes thru a Localtalk to Ethernet converter, and continues on to the Ethernet network, where they access our HP 4000 (or any other printer they want). It works great for this, but honestly, I would have to play a bit with it to tell you much about it. I am not the one that originally installed the software on the PCs, so I know little about it. I could tell you more about the Mac end of things, as we used to actually use the file sharing abilites of that (up until System 7 added easier to use personal file server). It has been a while since I had a mac with it installed (we stopped buying it for new macs when I explained one day, that if all we were doing was printing, we didn't need tops on the mac, appletalk printing was built in... so my boss stopped paying $400 a pop for it... it wasn't until later that I started using it for file sharing, figuring we had it, might as well use it) >Abandoneware is one thing, but this is "throw your customers off a >cliffware". Ultimately Sun owns the rights to the TOPS network protocol, at >least I think, but Symantec and Farallon pretend this era of product which >came with LIFETIME support etc. never existed. All the versions I have are marked as being from Sun, who is the only company I remember dealing with for TOPS (not saying others didn't own it, I just never dealt with them... my boxes are all marked "TOPS Division of Sun Microsystems... implying that they TOPS on a whole). The customer support manual does very specifically state that as a registered user, I get free support, no matter how long I own TOPS, as long as I own the current, or the previous release. They also say I get free notification of enhancements, updates, and new products... I have 2.1 for DOS, I wonder if that still qualifies... Why aren't they spamming me with new product announcements damnit! >Wants some fun, buy an EXPENSIVE sealed retail box new old stock product, >then without opening the envelope with the discs, send a letter to the >company informing them that you are NOT willing to comply with the terms of >their license agreement and want a refund of the retail price of the >package. I think I have an unopened copy of Windows For Workgroups.... That must have been pricey in its day... I wonder if MS will give me my money back... oh wait, no they won't, at least not if their refusal to the Linux community is any indication. Humm... does that then relieve me of the agreement, if I refused to accept it, and notified them, and they refuse to take it back and refund me... shouldn't I be legally allowed to do with it as I please, including use the disks as drink coasters? (You thought I would say duplicate it and give it away, but I can't in good concious subject others to Windows anything!) -chris From h.wolter at sympatico.ca Fri Oct 26 14:55:29 2001 From: h.wolter at sympatico.ca (Heinz Wolter) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:03 2005 Subject: Vintage NASA software available References: <20011026043759.KCXT14515.imf04bis.bellsouth.net@thegoodw> <3BD99070.D99CB73C@ccp.com> <018e01c15e48$c194df60$0b01a8c0@ValuedCustomer> Message-ID: <001d01c15e58$2c8f3400$3a92a8c0@MAGGIE> I looked under Spacecraft Navigation... just a lousy sun-tracker... I was kinda hoping for a source listing for the Apollo navigation computer... Anyone find more than the 1 page scan I found ? There is a sourceforge project for it, to recreate and simulate the cpu and dsky, but it's pretty green... regards Heinz From: "Michael Nadeau" > Open Channel Software is making old NASA applications available for > download. There is a fee involved for what's called the NASA Classics > collection, and the goal is to encourage commercial development of the > applications. The list is at http://www.openchannelsoftware.com/NASA_1.html. > I have no connection with OCS or NASA, but just happened to come across a > press release about the offer. From bjones at azvets.com Fri Oct 26 15:26:06 2001 From: bjones at azvets.com (Jones, Bill) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:03 2005 Subject: TO: Rca systemlink 5 remote codes and how to program this on e? Message-ID: <4BB59BCE272BD311AE2D00508B3038DC3AE8F1@EXCHANGE1> http://download.rca.com/english/RCA/ACCESSORIES/IB/CRCU100.pdf -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20011026/bb8d720e/attachment.html From edick at idcomm.com Fri Oct 26 15:38:05 2001 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:03 2005 Subject: VLB SCSI? References: <7A9BACCEF0171D4FB77019F5104CDD37225834@jeffserver.tegjeff.com> Message-ID: <001901c15e5e$1edfba40$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> I guess I have my definitions wrong. I thought that if a device was commercially available a decade ago, it's considered "classic" for purposes of this list. What is the spec? My first VLB motherboard was alive and well in '91. Dick ----- Original Message ----- From: "Douglas Quebbeman" To: Sent: Friday, October 26, 2001 9:12 AM Subject: RE: VLB SCSI? > > > The AHA2842 is a narrow-SCSI card, though it's possibly the best ADAPTEC > ever > > produced. I've been using them for years without a hitch, while their newer > > cards, (2940, 3940, 3985, etc) seem to bring with them both a short life and > > lots of compatibility issues. > > > > Unfortunately, the VLB is alread a "classic" feature, having been "dead" now > for > > over a decade. > > While I'm sure they exist (i.e. EISA ones), I don't have any 486 motherboards > that aren't VLB boards, the most recent of which was bought new in 1994. > > Still, while not-quite-classic, VLB sure isn't leading the industry... > > -dq > > From edick at idcomm.com Fri Oct 26 15:44:22 2001 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:03 2005 Subject: Falling off the internet References: Message-ID: <001f01c15e5e$ff39cf40$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> Don't you have any choice about this? Does it mean that your DSL connection is no longer supported by Qwest? Since they are the only phone company, aren't they obliged to provide you with that service? In shameless self-interest, I'd recommend you consider id communications www.idcomm.com (303 790-4343) as an ISP rather than going with MSN. My sources tell me that MSN offers the worst service available in our geographic area, second only to AOL, and that Qwest is only a teensy bit better. Moreover, id offers full service, while AOL, MSN, and Qwest leave some services out or charge extra. It's about provisioning, doncha know! Tell 'e I sent you. They'll charge you extra, of course, but tell 'em anyway. Dick ----- Original Message ----- From: "Clint Wolff (VAX collector)" To: Sent: Friday, October 26, 2001 9:16 AM Subject: Falling off the internet > > I just received notification from Qwest that I am being moved to > MSN, so I will be falling off the internet for a while until I > get a new DSL provider hooked up. > > If there is desire to reach me, my work email is: > > clintw@colorado.cirrus.com > > Y'all be good, and play nice together :) > > Clint > > > From edick at idcomm.com Fri Oct 26 15:46:04 2001 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:03 2005 Subject: Still seeking Televideo TS-803 References: <3BD988AC.2D664746@hotmail.com> Message-ID: <002d01c15e5f$3b1aca00$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> How about 22disk? Have you tried that? Dick ----- Original Message ----- From: "Richard Decker" To: Sent: Friday, October 26, 2001 10:00 AM Subject: Re: Still seeking Televideo TS-803 > I HAVE WHAT U ARE LOOKING FOR. I NEED TO GET DATA FROM 5 1/4 TO WINDOWS > MACHINE. ANY SUGGESTIONS? AFTER THAT I WANT TO GET RID OF THE 803. > RESPOND ASAP TO SAVE MY BUTT!! THANKS > > From kees.stravers at iae.nl Fri Oct 26 16:01:52 2001 From: kees.stravers at iae.nl (Kees Stravers) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:03 2005 Subject: SLOT 8 (was: ISA cards for free.. Message-ID: <20011026210152.65E2620F1B@mail.iae.nl> At 09:29 26-10-01 -0700, you wrote: >I have no idea why IBM did that. Perhaps intending it for some >"special" card that would need it, such as a coprocessor? AFAIK slot 8 in the XT was meant for a bus extender card. There was available a box which looked just like a XT but only had a psu and a passive motherboard inside. You put a bus ext card in that box and in the XT, and you could add seven more cards to the system. Kees. -- kees.stravers@iae.nl - Geldrop, The Netherlands http://home.iae.nl/users/pb0aia/ From spc at conman.org Fri Oct 26 16:10:50 2001 From: spc at conman.org (Sean 'Captain Napalm' Conner) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:03 2005 Subject: Falling off the internet In-Reply-To: <001f01c15e5e$ff39cf40$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> from "Richard Erlacher" at Oct 26, 2001 02:44:22 PM Message-ID: <200110262110.RAA18094@conman.org> It was thus said that the Great Richard Erlacher once stated: > > Don't you have any choice about this? Does it mean that your DSL connection is > no longer supported by Qwest? Since they are the only phone company, aren't > they obliged to provide you with that service? I think it may have more to do with forcing customers that use Windows to use Lookout, Lookout Express or Internet Exploder to check their email (can't use any other email client---it won't work) and blocking off outbound port 25 connections (so you can probably check outside email accounts with anything, but you can't *send* email since that port is blocked). -spc (Isn't that sweet?) From optimus at canit.se Fri Oct 26 16:30:58 2001 From: optimus at canit.se (Iggy Drougge) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:03 2005 Subject: VLB SCSI? In-Reply-To: <7A9BACCEF0171D4FB77019F5104CDD37225834@jeffserver.tegjeff.com> Message-ID: <652.699T2900T13506589optimus@canit.se> Douglas Quebbeman skrev: >> Unfortunately, the VLB is alread a "classic" feature, having been "dead" >> now for over a decade. >While I'm sure they exist (i.e. EISA ones), I don't have any 486 motherboards >that aren't VLB boards, the most recent of which was bought new in 1994. I've got some nice motherboards with both ISA, PCI and VLB. =) >Still, while not-quite-classic, VLB sure isn't leading the industry... But it's hardly a decade old, and only dead since about five years... -- En ligne avec Thor 2.6a. Haben Sie schon mal einen Wegweiser gesehen, der selbst den Weg geht, den er weist? --- Ludwig XV (K?nig von Frankreich, 1710-1774) From optimus at canit.se Fri Oct 26 16:36:06 2001 From: optimus at canit.se (Iggy Drougge) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:03 2005 Subject: VLB SCSI? In-Reply-To: <3BD8510F.738341B1@internet1.net> Message-ID: <1108.699T300T13563765optimus@canit.se> Chad Fernandez skrev: >I would consider VLB to be classic, or at least "legacy". I guess it >depends on the definition. I don't think any VLB cards have been >shipped for quite some time. They were mainly a 486 class bus. Did any >Pentium or 386 class motherboards come with VLB slots? I think I've got a Pentium VLB mobo laying about in the public spaces here... While I haven't seen any 386 VLB boards, I've got an AST 386 where the CPU (AMD surface-mount clone) is fit on a daughter card which plugs into a VLB slot, though it's far away from the ISA slots. After all, if there is a lot of VLB capacity, why not use a readily-available electrical interface instead of inventing one of your own? Another odd PC mobo I've got is a 486 board with ISA, possible VLB as well, and a DX-50 Overdrive processor. Well, that's not so strange, but in the middle of the board, there is a DIN connector, like a VME or Nubus connector. What could that be? -- En ligne avec Thor 2.6a. G? med i SUGA, Swedish Usergroup of Amiga! WWW: http://swedish.usergroup.amiga.tm/ BBS: 08-6582572, telnet://sua.ath.cx:42512 From UberTechnoid at home.com Fri Oct 26 16:38:52 2001 From: UberTechnoid at home.com (UberTechnoid@home.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:03 2005 Subject: The new VAX is alive! In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20011026213641.FRGJ15013.femail34.sdc1.sfba.home.com@BENCHBOX> MY vaxstation 4000/60 has 40mb ram, but I've heard that VMS will run on a paper plate as far as ram goes. It will just swap like hell. Another option you might consider is NetBSD. I've installed it on my vax alongside vms072b and it works very well. The only downside is that it doesn't support my framebuffer and may never support it due to a lack of programming information. Maybe someone in the list has docs for the 4000/60's color framebuffer? One really cool thing about NetBSD is it is easy to install via FTP using a teensy little boot image. You can make a tape of this image and then boot that to install if you don't have a floppy and have no way of mounting your vax's hard disk on a PC to transfer the image. Regards, Jeff BTW, I had to make a cable to connect a serial console to the vax. A standard modular telephone connector works well if you break off the locking tab and shave the end a bit. It won't lock into the jack, but friction seems to keep it in and if there was a real problem, a peice of tape would secure it. In , on 10/26/01 at 03:51 PM, "R. D. Davis" said: >On Fri, 26 Oct 2001 UberTechnoid@Home.com wrote: >> Now all you need do is go to http://www.montagar.com, join the DECUS >> user's group and get your OpenVMS cdrom. It contains things like TCP/IP >> and quite a few 'layered' products such as Basic, Fortran, Cobol, >> etcetera. >That, I want! :-) Of course, I don't have a huge amount of memory in the >VAX, so perhaps I'd be better off just staying with what I have. >While I've joined DECUS, I've not ordered the OpenVMS CD-ROM yet since I >have no way of reading the CD-ROM since I don't have a SCSI card in my >VAX; I'm going to have to find a VAXstation to use for reading a CD-ROM >and then figure out how to get the files from the VAXstation to the VAX >(can I do this over DECnet?). Also, I should get a tape drive installed >as well for backups, as this VAX is missing both a tape drive and the >mounting hardware for the tape drive... the drive itself is no problem, >as I have one of those; just need to find the TKQ50 and the mounting >hardware. >-- >Copyright (C) 2001 R. D. Davis The difference between humans & other >animals: All Rights Reserved an unnatural belief that we're >above Nature & rdd@rddavis.net 410-744-4900 her other creatures, using >dogma to justify such http://www.rddavis.net beliefs and to >justify much human cruelty. -- ----------------------------------------------------------- Jeffrey S. Worley Asheville, NC USA 828-6984887 UberTechnoid@Home.com ----------------------------------------------------------- From edick at idcomm.com Fri Oct 26 16:39:17 2001 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:03 2005 Subject: VLB SCSI? References: <7A9BACCEF0171D4FB77019F5104CDD37225834@jeffserver.tegjeff.com> <3BD8510F.738341B1@internet1.net> Message-ID: <000f01c15e66$a9fa1aa0$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> I've seen '386 boards, in fact just recently, with VLB slots on the mobo. I have a couple of Pentium mobo's with both PCI and VLB slots, though, like you, I mostly see VLB on '486 boards. My favorite of all these mobo's was a 5x86/133 model with 3 PCI, 3 ISA, of which one shared a backpanel with a PCI, and 3 VLB. It also had all the motherboard resources we've since come to expect, e.g. dual EIDE, 2S&1P, FDC, etc. I'd happily buy another of those, but the one I had failed incoming inspection, having a dead FDC. ... too bad ... Dick ----- Original Message ----- From: "Chad Fernandez" To: Sent: Thursday, October 25, 2001 11:51 AM Subject: Re: VLB SCSI? > I only have 1 VLB motherboard, and one card. It is lowest number of > cards for a given card type that I own :-) Oh wait, I only have one AGP > card, so I guess AGP and VLB are tied in my collection. I have had lots > of EISA, Microchannel, and ISA cards. Only 5 or 6 PCI cards, and most > of those are recent acquisitions. > > I would consider VLB to be classic, or at least "legacy". I guess it > depends on the definition. I don't think any VLB cards have been > shipped for quite some time. They were mainly a 486 class bus. Did any > Pentium or 386 class motherboards come with VLB slots? > > Chad Fernandez > Michigan, USA > > Douglas Quebbeman wrote: > > While I'm sure they exist (i.e. EISA ones), I don't have any 486 motherboards > > that aren't VLB boards, the most recent of which was bought new in 1994. > > > > Still, while not-quite-classic, VLB sure isn't leading the industry... > > > > -dq > > From UberTechnoid at home.com Fri Oct 26 16:46:32 2001 From: UberTechnoid at home.com (UberTechnoid@home.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:03 2005 Subject: first step getting VAX 6000-400 booted ... In-Reply-To: <3BD9B799.6C351149@aurora.regenstrief.org> Message-ID: <20011026213957.HYYB25699.femail40.sdc1.sfba.home.com@BENCHBOX> You might try making a tape with a NetBSD/vax miniroot image on it. That is a little 2mb file that won't take NEARLY as long to boot as VMS for testing purposes. HTTP://www.netbsd.org. Regards, Jeff In <3BD9B799.6C351149@aurora.regenstrief.org>, on 10/26/01 at 02:20 PM, Gunther Schadow said: >Well, >it still doesn't work. I booted again VMS from TK (takes hours) trying >various combinations of hardware and no success. I have given the RA90 a >device address of 1. I have tried it on both the KDB50 and the KDM70 >without success. Now I am wondering whether the SDI cable crossover >issue is the problem? But why can Geoff run his RA90 in the basement of >his 6000? >The specifications clearly say that you can do this: >KDB50---->VAXbulkhead---->SA800bulkhead---->RA90 >and Geoff does this >KDB50---->VAXbulkhead---->RA90. >So, the swapping issue seems more complicated than just >an uneven number of SDI cables! But I did exactly what >Geoff did! Or did he do it differently? How? May be there >are two sorts of SDI cables with or without cross-over? >Whether or not I have the disk drive connected, the KDB90 >shows the red LEDs as > B - blink > o - off > X - on > o - off >which according to the manual is what it should be. The KDB50 shows this >pattern as soon as it's being initialized by VMS. However, VMS never >detects any actual drive. So how could I possibly test this link between >KDB50 and drive. It could be any of this: >- KDB50 SDI interface damaged but in a way that is not > detected by the self-test >- KDB50 backplane cabling not screwed on tightly enough >- SDI cabling broken >- SDI cabling mismatched (crossover issue) >- RA90 SDI interface damaged but in a way that is not > detected by the self-test >Is there any resident test that will check the drive/host >interaction without requiring me to wait for another VMS >boot cycle. Each attempt at rewiring and rebooting costs me >about one hour for the VMS to boot from TK again so I need >to keep this minimal. >Is there any remote chance someone has a diagnostic tape >where these things could be tested more thorroughly? I'd >very keenly interested in such diagnosis tapes for KDB50/ >RA90, and KLESI/TU81 (because that's not being detected >by VMS either). >Do we know the pinouts and signal patterns of the SDI (and >BTW the KLESI) so that I oculd use my scope to detect if >the wiring is O.K.? I didn't find pinouts and signals in >the KDB50, RA9x user manual (or the KLESI user manual >respectively). >I should be moving one of my HSC90s and SA800 into the >basement and connect the CI cabling star coupler and >everything. Last time the HSC's run they were fine ('bout >a year ago). However, my back still hurts from moving >the TU81 downstairs and I wanted to give it a rest ... >no such luck though :-/ >thanks, >-Gunther -- ----------------------------------------------------------- Jeffrey S. Worley Asheville, NC USA 828-6984887 UberTechnoid@Home.com ----------------------------------------------------------- From edick at idcomm.com Fri Oct 26 16:48:08 2001 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:03 2005 Subject: VLB SCSI? References: <652.699T2900T13506589optimus@canit.se> Message-ID: <002301c15e67$e6d8e0e0$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> I used to use those 5x86 "VIP" (VLB/ISA/PCI) mothers all the time, having bought dozens of them in the fall-'93-spring '94 semester. However, I've not seen them for sale anywhere since then. I'd been using VLB for a couple of years by then and found the video faster and the SCSI (ADAPTEC AHA2842) and IDE (PROMISE Technology had serveral nice controllers) considerably improved by the wider bus. The "normal" multi-i/o situated on a VLB card wasn't particularly faster, however. With a VLB video card, a VLB SCSI port, and a VLB IDE card, one had a pretty hot Win3.1 box. I still occasionally have contact with one or more of those 5x86/133's, but they generally had only one VLB slot. I always needed two or more. Whenever I run into a Pentium mobo that uses SIMMs or DIMMs and has both PCI and VLB slots (that's plural, BTW) I attempt to buy it, if it's not too pricey, provided there's still support for it available in the form of BIOS updates and updated drivers. A few are still supported. Dick ----- Original Message ----- From: "Iggy Drougge" To: "Douglas Quebbeman" Sent: Friday, October 26, 2001 3:30 PM Subject: RE: VLB SCSI? > Douglas Quebbeman skrev: > > >> Unfortunately, the VLB is alread a "classic" feature, having been "dead" > >> now for over a decade. > > >While I'm sure they exist (i.e. EISA ones), I don't have any 486 motherboards > >that aren't VLB boards, the most recent of which was bought new in 1994. > > I've got some nice motherboards with both ISA, PCI and VLB. =) > > >Still, while not-quite-classic, VLB sure isn't leading the industry... > > But it's hardly a decade old, and only dead since about five years... > > -- > En ligne avec Thor 2.6a. > > Haben Sie schon mal einen Wegweiser gesehen, der selbst den Weg geht, den er > weist? > --- Ludwig XV (K?nig von Frankreich, 1710-1774) > > > From cmcmanis at mcmanis.com Fri Oct 26 16:51:20 2001 From: cmcmanis at mcmanis.com (Chuck McManis) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:03 2005 Subject: FS: Emulex P800, Gatorstar GXR, LanBridge Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20011026132009.00aa9c80@mcmanis.com> Anyone need a GatorStar GXR? From the web: GatorStar GXR -- an active device that combines an AppleTalk router attached to an Ethernet and a LocalTalk network with an AppleTalk to TCP/IP gateway (LocalTalk does not support direct transmission of IP packets) so that IP packets on the Ethernet are passed as special IP packets on the LocalTalk. A GatorStar GXR is a specific example, there are other products that do similar things Best/Any offer by 5:00PM monday PST takes it. Minimum off is "I'll cover the cost of mailing it to me." I've also got an Emulex P800 which looks like a MAU but it could be a terminal server. Its pretty cool is says "Performance 8000", has dual Ethernet connections on the back (AUI), dual power supplies, and what looks like 12 DB25 ports (I can't imagine a fault tolerant terminal server, but there you go. Free to a home somewhere. Finally I've got a couple DEC LanBridges (100 and a 150), they look like straight bridges but they just have two AUI connectors. Perhaps they do filtering or something? --Chuck From cmcmanis at mcmanis.com Fri Oct 26 17:11:44 2001 From: cmcmanis at mcmanis.com (Chuck McManis) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:03 2005 Subject: NCD collectors/users? Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20011026150853.00a70890@mcmanis.com> I've got a set of three NCD X-terminals, an HMX, an HMXpro, and an HMXpro24 that are available in the SF Bay area, I've got no idea if they work or not, no reason to believe that they don't. If someone can indicate how to test them I'll do that. Ideally to trade for some sort of DEC VAX stuff. --Chuck From gunther at aurora.regenstrief.org Fri Oct 26 17:33:04 2001 From: gunther at aurora.regenstrief.org (Gunther Schadow) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:03 2005 Subject: first step getting VAX 6000-400 booted ... References: <20011026213957.HYYB25699.femail40.sdc1.sfba.home.com@BENCHBOX> Message-ID: <3BD9E4A0.12EE8035@aurora.regenstrief.org> Jeff wrote: > You might try making a tape with a NetBSD/vax miniroot image on it. That > is a little 2mb file that won't take NEARLY as long to boot as VMS for > testing purposes. HTTP://www.netbsd.org. Yes, but NetBSD doesn't support any XMI or VAXBI devices to begin with. Part of the deal here is to get these machines up with Ultrix and then slowly migrate them to NetBSD (or any XMI/BI enabled BSD for that matter). Ultrix is in various ways the best start. But right now it seems like VMS is the first step to getting anything done at all :-( regards -Gunther -- Gunther_Schadow-------------------------------http://aurora.rg.iupui.edu Regenstrief Institute for Health Care 1050 Wishard Blvd., Indianapolis IN 46202, Phone: (317) 630 7960 schadow@aurora.rg.iupui.edu------------------#include From mikeford at socal.rr.com Fri Oct 26 17:37:59 2001 From: mikeford at socal.rr.com (Mike Ford) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:03 2005 Subject: OT: Re: OT: Re: Periodic rants on eBay In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: >> BTW I said most credible, so whats your alternative to ebay as a price >> reference? > >Meditation while under the effects of Mescaline. WHAT! Does that mean you have given up cough syrup and tantric sex, or just as a primary pricing reference? From mikeford at socal.rr.com Fri Oct 26 17:12:28 2001 From: mikeford at socal.rr.com (Mike Ford) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:03 2005 Subject: MacOS DHCP Server? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: >I think I have an unopened copy of Windows For Workgroups.... That must >have been pricey in its day... I wonder if MS will give me my money >back... oh wait, no they won't, at least not if their refusal to the >Linux community is any indication. Humm... does that then relieve me of >the agreement, if I refused to accept it, and notified them, and they >refuse to take it back and refund me... shouldn't I be legally allowed to >do with it as I please, including use the disks as drink coasters? (You >thought I would say duplicate it and give it away, but I can't in good >concious subject others to Windows anything!) Duplication of Microsoft software, Piracy or an act of Terrorism? From mcguire at neurotica.com Fri Oct 26 18:01:40 2001 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:03 2005 Subject: FS: Emulex P800, Gatorstar GXR, LanBridge In-Reply-To: FS: Emulex P800, Gatorstar GXR, LanBridge (Chuck McManis) References: <5.1.0.14.0.20011026132009.00aa9c80@mcmanis.com> Message-ID: <15321.60244.494710.766786@phaduka.neurotica.com> On October 26, Chuck McManis wrote: > I've also got an Emulex P800 which looks like a MAU but it could be a > terminal server. Its pretty cool is says "Performance 8000", has dual > Ethernet connections on the back (AUI), dual power supplies, and what looks > like 12 DB25 ports (I can't imagine a fault tolerant terminal server, but > there you go. Free to a home somewhere. The Emulex "Performance 4000", at least, is indeed a terminal server. > Finally I've got a couple DEC LanBridges (100 and a 150), they look like > straight bridges but they just have two AUI connectors. Perhaps they do > filtering or something? The LANbridge 100 and 150 do MAC-level bridging. I'm told they support spanning tree. I've used many of them to segregate networks; they've always served me well. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Laurel, MD From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Oct 26 17:39:50 2001 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:04 2005 Subject: SLOT 8 (was: ISA cards for free.. In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.2.20011025164723.00b16390@mail.azstarnet.com> from "Gordon Zaft" at Oct 25, 1 04:47:47 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 945 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20011026/65ff39c7/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Oct 26 17:45:54 2001 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:04 2005 Subject: SLOT 8 (was: ISA cards for free.. In-Reply-To: from "Fred Cisin" at Oct 25, 1 05:24:12 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1730 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20011026/897fc2e8/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Oct 26 17:55:13 2001 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:04 2005 Subject: HH8899 eecchhoo In-Reply-To: from "Sellam Ismail" at Oct 25, 1 07:16:30 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 370 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20011026/98fa5f85/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Oct 26 18:04:27 2001 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:04 2005 Subject: Reading non-PC format floppies (+ OT questions :-) In-Reply-To: <200110260836.KAA24357@ccii.co.za> from "Wouter de Waal" at Oct 26, 1 10:36:13 am Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1522 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20011027/1ae79864/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Oct 26 18:20:42 2001 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:04 2005 Subject: SLOT 8 (was: ISA cards for free.. In-Reply-To: <20011026210152.65E2620F1B@mail.iae.nl> from "Kees Stravers" at Oct 26, 1 11:01:52 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1471 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20011027/07ae1003/attachment.ksh From mikeford at socal.rr.com Fri Oct 26 18:00:07 2001 From: mikeford at socal.rr.com (Mike Ford) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:04 2005 Subject: Price guide for vintage computers In-Reply-To: <20011026043759.KCXT14515.imf04bis.bellsouth.net@thegoodw> Message-ID: >And since when can your average scrapper read, anyway? I have yet to meet even the scrougiest scrapper that didn't have some kind of a shelf of reference books. One place local to me changed hands, and in a very lucky moment I bought a batch of the old owners reference books, that the new owner didn't realize the value of. When I met the former owner and told him about it I thought he was going to pop a rivet. From vance at ikickass.org Fri Oct 26 19:30:02 2001 From: vance at ikickass.org (One Without Reason) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:04 2005 Subject: value of classic DEC machines? In-Reply-To: <20011026024214.B61447-100000@lepton.subatomix.com> Message-ID: I have an 11/70 and it's a beautiful machine. I'd love to have another to play with. Peace... Sridhar On Fri, 26 Oct 2001, Jeffrey S. Sharp wrote: > On Wed, 24 Oct 2001, Heinz Wolter wrote: > > > but you couldn't probably give away an 11/70 > > Well, I for one would be glad to take an 11/70 away from someone. :-) > -- > Jeffrey S. Sharp > jss@subatomix.com > > From vance at ikickass.org Fri Oct 26 19:31:28 2001 From: vance at ikickass.org (One Without Reason) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:04 2005 Subject: Um, SOL50 fell in my lap In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20011026083739.00a5d1b0@sokieserv.dhs.org> Message-ID: Dude, that's wrong. I looked at your box, and it's a SOL-20. Peace... Sridhar On Fri, 26 Oct 2001, John Boffemmyer IV wrote: > Verified with a source, Sol50 from Processor Technologies. Correction on > drives: 7.50MB, not 750, but yes, 10" wide and not floppies. > -John > > At 02:00 PM 10/24/01, you wrote: > >On Wed, 24 Oct 2001, Bob Stek wrote: > > > > > Do you mean a SOL-20 by Processor Technology? Also, Morrow Designs > > > (Thinkertoys) made 8" SS DD and DS DD floppy drives - 512k to 1024k. > > > > > > Or are you referring to something completely different? > > > >I'm still awaiting the reply on the message I sent asking what a SOL50 is > >myself. Maybe he meant SOL-20, as I am pretty certain there was never a > >SOL-50, and I know of no other computer that used that designation. > > > >Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival > >------------------------------------------------------------------------------ > >International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org > > ---------------------------------------- > Founder, Lead Writer, Tech Analyst > and Web Designer Boff-Net Technologies > http://boff-net.dhs.org/index.html > --------------------------------------- > From vance at ikickass.org Fri Oct 26 19:33:03 2001 From: vance at ikickass.org (One Without Reason) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:04 2005 Subject: MacOS DHCP Server? In-Reply-To: <20011026090553.A15964@borg.org> Message-ID: On Fri, 26 Oct 2001, Kent Borg wrote: > On Fri, Oct 26, 2001 at 12:14:00AM -0700, Mike Ford wrote: > > Abandoneware is one thing [...] > > > Wants some fun, buy an EXPENSIVE sealed retail box new old stock product, > > then without opening the envelope with the discs, send a letter to the > > company informing them that you are NOT willing to comply with the terms of > > their license agreement and want a refund of the retail price of the > > package. > > Interesting idea. > > If I buy a book I own that copy, not the right to copy it, not a > "license" forming an agreement between me and some other party, but I > own the book itself. Familiar stuff. This leads to an interesting situation. Can you make, say, 50,000,000 copies of a book, and send it to its rightful owner? Peace... Sridhar From vance at ikickass.org Fri Oct 26 19:34:46 2001 From: vance at ikickass.org (One Without Reason) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:04 2005 Subject: Um, SOL50 fell in my lap In-Reply-To: <7A9BACCEF0171D4FB77019F5104CDD37225835@jeffserver.tegjeff.com> Message-ID: This machine is a SOL-20 (his machine). I verified it visually. It's sitting in my storage locker. Peace... Sridhar On Fri, 26 Oct 2001, Douglas Quebbeman wrote: > > Verified with a source, Sol50 from Processor Technologies. > > Company was named Processor Technology, not Processor Technologies. > > I join with others in failing to recall a SOL-50 in the line. > > Possibly, a third-party reselling re-labeled it to distinguish > his value-added package from the standard SOL-PC, SOL-10, and SOL-20 > which were what the firms actually sold. A Z-80 upgrade for the > SOL that I recently sold came with a new nameplate to rename the > machine 'ZOL' instead of 'SOL'; maybe we're looking at a similar > phenomenon. > > Regards, > -doug q > From vance at ikickass.org Fri Oct 26 19:38:56 2001 From: vance at ikickass.org (One Without Reason) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:04 2005 Subject: Um, SOL50 fell in my lap In-Reply-To: <000001c15e3a$0eace310$0201a8c0@bob> Message-ID: Actually, what he has is a SOL-20. He won't believe me until I show him, though. 8-) Peace... Sridhar On Fri, 26 Oct 2001, Bob Stek wrote: > I'm still a little confused. Processor Technology Corp. (not Processor > Technologies - couldn't find a reference for them on the web) best known > machine was the Sol-20 - 8080 based in a blue metal cabinet, keyboard > built in, with walnut wood sides. They supposedly made a small number > of Sol-10's, and were planning on both an S-100 color board and a > revised Sol - a Sol-II? Not sure of the name. Could what you have be a > prototype? Their Helios drives were also packaged in a blue case and > the drives were mounted vertically. I have owned Morrow assembled > Discus 8" floppies, their first 5.25" hard drives (5, 10, 15 and 20 MB > IIRC), and have worked on a 14" Morrow hard drive. I don't recall a 10" > wide 7.50 MB drive. I do recall and had owned a 15 MB 5.25" drive from > Morrow - I suppose if it had a bad platter it could have been sold as a > 7.5 MB drive. IIRC, their drives just had the standard Shugart or > Seagate black face plate and activity LED sticking out of a non-descript > chassis with power supply, and had ribbon cables to attach to the S-100 > controller card. > > Are we any closer to identifying this machine? > > Bob Stek > Saver of Lost Sols > > > From mhstein at usa.net Fri Oct 26 18:58:43 2001 From: mhstein at usa.net (M H Stein) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:04 2005 Subject: SLOT 8 (was: ISA cards for free.. Message-ID: <01C15E5E.959CC2E0@mse-d03> > Was that "slot-8" compatibility creature a bug in the PC as well? Yes and no. :-) Since the PC had 5 slots, there was HARDLY EVER a problem with slot number 8! - -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin@xenosoft.com ------------------------------- ROFL! Been kinda missing the humour on here; thanks for the chuckle, Fred! From mhstein at usa.net Fri Oct 26 19:41:23 2001 From: mhstein at usa.net (M H Stein) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:04 2005 Subject: blinkenlights for everybody (?) Message-ID: <01C15E5E.9D4EABC0@mse-d03> Looks great; good luck & congratulations. Just don't let Tony & the boys see that part about using 556's for baud rate & interrupt timers or THAT thread'll go on for another month... *Almost* makes me want to put a PC behind the Burroughs B2000 console I've got gathering dust in my basement... mike ----------------Original Message---------------- Date: Fri, 26 Oct 2001 13:34:09 +0200 From: Gooijen H Subject: blinkenlights for everybody (?) Hi all. Some weeks ago there was a thread about blinkenlights and consoles. It was mentioned that a simple piece of hardware (just a few resistors two transistors and 16 LEDs) connected to the printer port of a PC can be brought to life when you run Ersatz-11. Well, it took some time for me to decide whether I should go 'public' with a project I intend to embark on. In short: a *_full_* console on a PC that runs Ersatz-11. The reason to announce the project is to get feedback. Am I on the right track. Have a look, on this page (part of my website) you can find a small ZIP file that contains the draft document that descibes it. http://home.hetnet.nl/~tshaj/pdpsite/homebrew/startframe.html Any comment is appreciated. - - Henk. From vze2wsvr at verizon.net Fri Oct 26 19:50:37 2001 From: vze2wsvr at verizon.net (Eric Chomko) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:04 2005 Subject: Vintage NASA software available References: <20011026043759.KCXT14515.imf04bis.bellsouth.net@thegoodw> <3BD99070.D99CB73C@ccp.com> <018e01c15e48$c194df60$0b01a8c0@ValuedCustomer> <000601c15e4d$e720be20$8e8fc186@umkcpi> Message-ID: <3BDA04DD.D3CC421A@mail.verizon.net> Michael Passer wrote: > I'm a little confused. If this software was developed by NASA to begin with > and is unclassified, shouldn't it be in the public domain anyway, having > been developed with taxpayer dollars? Not necessarily. NASA-developed software does mean it belongs to taxpayers per se, but that doesn't mean that it necessrily is public domain. Some NASA software doesn't even belong in the public domain as it wouldn't be applicable there, due to the prototypical nature of the code. Other code, like utilities and such, do have application to the public domain but there is no contract or task associated with turning the code, developed for and on a NASA project, over to the public. The impetus to make NASA code reusable was so other NASA projects could use existing code. It is THAT work that has made NASA code more easily available to the public domain. Also, NASA satellite data, though much of it is free on web sites and such, actually costs to order it and have it sent to you, etc. I have always found that interesting. > > > > Open Channel Software is making old NASA applications available for > > download. There is a fee involved . . . I'll have to check out the fee. I suspect that that is part of the task to turn the code over as well as possible distribution cost. Eric From clandrum at monumental.com Fri Oct 26 19:59:00 2001 From: clandrum at monumental.com (Craig Landrum) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:04 2005 Subject: Genrad Futuredata info Message-ID: <3BDA06C9.FB873699@monumental.com> For those few of you that may own a Futuredata development system (Tony?) I managed to track down the last engineer employed by Genrad/Kontron/Futuredata in the US. His name is Tom de Lellis and he can be reached at tdel@windriver.com Tom has a LOT of software and *some* hardware that I placed first dibs on... Also, having just joined this list, it would appear to be dominated by primarily big iron types instead of us IMSAI and S100 junkies. Assuming there are a few out there and you wish to correspond, here's what I have: Two loaded IMSAI 8080's with both 8 inch and 5.25 drives. An Odell CP/M 8085 multibus-based word processor Morrow systems portable CP/M machine Two Futuredata 2300 Z80 development machines Trash 80 Model 1 Altair (front panel and bus, looking for boz and front cover) Spare 8 inch Shugart drives 20 or 30 S100 boards of various types (mem, disk, cpu,IO) Masccomp 5500, 68010 Unix box I can burn 2708,2716,2732 EPROMs on a one-up basis if given an intel HEX file and some word of encouragement. Everything boots and I have extensive doc on everything. Would like to obtain a working ASR33 teletype with a paper tape punch. They guy who had the SOL + teletype drop in his lap made me drool. (and I bet he meant 750KB drives). FYI, I'm in Virginia about an hour west of DC, dodging the Anthrax clouds.... Craig Landrum CTO Mindwrap, Inc. home: clandrum@monumental.com work: craigl@mindwrap.com From geoffrob at stmarks.pp.catholic.edu.au Fri Oct 26 21:04:16 2001 From: geoffrob at stmarks.pp.catholic.edu.au (Geoff Roberts) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:04 2005 Subject: Vintage NASA software available References: <20011026043759.KCXT14515.imf04bis.bellsouth.net@thegoodw> <3BD99070.D99CB73C@ccp.com> <018e01c15e48$c194df60$0b01a8c0@ValuedCustomer> <000601c15e4d$e720be20$8e8fc186@umkcpi> <3BDA04DD.D3CC421A@mail.verizon.net> Message-ID: <025101c15e8b$b1ba3480$0300a8c0@geoff> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Eric Chomko" To: Sent: Saturday, October 27, 2001 10:20 AM Subject: Re: Vintage NASA software available > I'll have to check out the fee. I suspect that that is part of the task to turn > the code over as well as possible distribution cost. The satellite link rain attenuation analysis software is $15US. What's annoying to me is that it is ONLY available to US citizens fo some unstated reason. Heck it's a 30k basic/vb app for a mac or pc, are they afraid Afghanistan are gonna get their hands on it and use it to, ahem, well, uh, heck I can't think of anything a hostile COULD do with it. Hardly rocket science, well, ok, maybe it is, but it's not exactly sensitive IMHO. I did note on the opening page that there are moves now afoot to make at least some of it freeware, at least for non commercial use. Geoff Roberts Computer Systems Manager Saint Mark's College Port Pirie, South Australia geoffrob@stmarks.pp.catholic.edu.au From gunther at aurora.regenstrief.org Fri Oct 26 22:11:16 2001 From: gunther at aurora.regenstrief.org (Gunther Schadow) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:04 2005 Subject: How to disassemble an HSC90? Message-ID: <3BDA25D4.90804@aurora.regenstrief.org> Hi, has anyone of you ever disassembled an HSC cabinet? I am looking pretty stupid right now. It's not the first piece of DEC iron equipment that I have moved in pieces, I did two VAX6000 and one TU81+. But this one is different. While being half-height like the TU81, it's quite a bit deeper. The side-walls appear to be just locked at the bottom and then hooked such that one can lift it up and off, like the TU81's side walls. However, they do not move no matter how hard I try. I don't find any screws holding them, though. And with the sidewalls on, I cannot remove the top-cover either. So, I was hoping I could at least take it into two pieces by moving the whole core out in one piece. Apparently that central unit is just screwed on the front, like a rack-mount device. Indeed I can move it out quite far. But then it stops at a protruding piece of the backplane circuit board! There seems to be no way to move that core all the way out other than by removing the backplane circuite board. And I'm not going to do that. Other DEC equipment was quite straight forward to disassemble, but this one beats the auto-assembies in difficulty level. I appreciate every advice. My suspicion is that the sidewalls are indeed removable, but mine are just stuck. Someone seen it? regards -Gunther -- Gunther Schadow, M.D., Ph.D. gschadow@regenstrief.org Medical Information Scientist Regenstrief Institute for Health Care Adjunct Assistant Professor Indiana University School of Medicine tel:1(317)630-7960 http://aurora.regenstrief.org From gunther at aurora.regenstrief.org Fri Oct 26 22:23:11 2001 From: gunther at aurora.regenstrief.org (Gunther Schadow) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:04 2005 Subject: blinkenlights for everybody (?) References: <01C15E5E.9D4EABC0@mse-d03> Message-ID: <3BDA289F.2080104@aurora.regenstrief.org> Yup, this is cool. It struck me that this is just an ol' i486/66MHz. I'm just tinkering with little SBCs that are 486/133MHz. They are very small. With those you could build a miniature PDP-11. That way you could have all the fun (and blinkenlights of course) in much less space, portable, PDP-11 to go :-) regards, -Gunther M H Stein wrote: > Looks great; good luck & congratulations. Just don't let Tony & the boys see that part about using 556's for baud rate & interrupt timers or THAT thread'll go on for another month... > > *Almost* makes me want to put a PC behind the Burroughs B2000 console I've got gathering dust in my basement... > > mike > ----------------Original Message---------------- > Date: Fri, 26 Oct 2001 13:34:09 +0200 > From: Gooijen H > Subject: blinkenlights for everybody (?) > > Hi all. > > Some weeks ago there was a thread about blinkenlights and consoles. > It was mentioned that a simple piece of hardware (just a few > resistors two transistors and 16 LEDs) connected to the printer port > of a PC can be brought to life when you run Ersatz-11. > Well, it took some time for me to decide whether I should go 'public' > with a project I intend to embark on. > In short: a *_full_* console on a PC that runs Ersatz-11. > The reason to announce the project is to get feedback. Am I on the > right track. Have a look, on this page (part of my website) you can > find a small ZIP file that contains the draft document that descibes > it. > > http://home.hetnet.nl/~tshaj/pdpsite/homebrew/startframe.html > > Any comment is appreciated. > > - - Henk. > -- Gunther Schadow, M.D., Ph.D. gschadow@regenstrief.org Medical Information Scientist Regenstrief Institute for Health Care Adjunct Assistant Professor Indiana University School of Medicine tel:1(317)630-7960 http://aurora.regenstrief.org From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Fri Oct 26 22:28:14 2001 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (ajp166) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:04 2005 Subject: VLB SCSI? Message-ID: <009001c15e97$b7368240$39f09a8d@ajp166> -----Original Message----- From: Richard Erlacher >I still occasionally have contact with one or more of those 5x86/133's, but they >generally had only one VLB slot. I always needed two or more. Whenever I run I have several of them with two VLB slots and video and IDE/floppy combo cards. They are fairly nice with 16mb ram running most anything, they make good linux boxen. Allison From vcf at vintage.org Fri Oct 26 22:31:33 2001 From: vcf at vintage.org (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:04 2005 Subject: Sharp PC-5000 for sale Message-ID: I have a new-in-box Sharp PC-5000 for sale at $350 or best offer by 6:00PM PST October 31st. That is, $350 takes it now (going by first received e-mail response); otherwise, it goes to the best offer under $350 that I receive by 6PM-10/31. Buyer pays shipping from zip code 94588. I am willing to ship internationally The Sharp PC-5000 is one of the very first clamshell style portables (later known as laptops) circa 1983. According to our own Uncle Roger, it even beat out the Gavilan. http://sinasohn.com/cgi-bin/clascomp/bldhtm.pl?computer=shp5000 This unit comes in the original box, with the original packing foam, is basically new, has the manuals and battery and power supply (everything that originally came with it), as well as a bubble memory carthridge. Photos: The Computer http://www.siconic.com/crap/sharp5000.jpg The Box http://www.siconic.com/crap/sharp_box.jpg The Manual http://www.siconic.com/crap/Sharp_us_g.jpg The Bubble Memory Module http://www.siconic.com/crap/Sharp_Bm_box.jpg Please reply directly to me at . If you have any questions, ask away! Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org From thompson at mail.athenet.net Fri Oct 26 23:06:43 2001 From: thompson at mail.athenet.net (Paul Thompson) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:04 2005 Subject: How to disassemble an HSC90? In-Reply-To: <3BDA25D4.90804@aurora.regenstrief.org> Message-ID: On Fri, 26 Oct 2001, Gunther Schadow wrote: > TU81, it's quite a bit deeper. The side-walls appear to be just > locked at the bottom and then hooked such that one can lift it > up and off, like the TU81's side walls. However, they do not move > no matter how hard I try. I don't find any screws holding them, > though. And with the sidewalls on, I cannot remove the top-cover > either. > > So, I was hoping I could at least take it into two pieces by > moving the whole core out in one piece. Apparently that central > unit is just screwed on the front, like a rack-mount device. > Indeed I can move it out quite far. But then it stops at a > protruding piece of the backplane circuit board! There seems > to be no way to move that core all the way out other than by > removing the backplane circuite board. And I'm not going to do > that. I tried to disassemble a HSC70 and ran into much the same problem. I did take the backplane out thinking that would assist in removing the sides and regretted it. It was definitely assembled in a manner that made all the cabinet components basically inaccessible. I still have that backplane somewhere. -- From h.wolter at sympatico.ca Fri Oct 26 23:15:45 2001 From: h.wolter at sympatico.ca (Heinz Wolter) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:04 2005 Subject: value of classic DEC machines? References: Message-ID: <005901c15e9e$0d0bb7c0$3a92a8c0@MAGGIE> > I have an 11/70 and it's a beautiful machine. I'd love to have another to > play with. > > Peace... Sridhar For every dog, there is a flea... I'll send the scrap truck over to your huge warehouse next time;) I've already turned down 2 complete 11/70s due to size- you'll find most 11/70 configs too physically large for most home or basement collections (3 racks?). They're also hungry on the power side, so I don't run my Datasystem 570- a repackaged 11/70 in a vax780-like "wide bay" - even if it lives in a warehouse... At least two commercial DEC restorers I know basically scrap the 70's (since "no one wants them" - which I read "no one wants to pay for them" ) or are forced to remove them along with more interesting stuff as part of the deal (and scrap them later;) Should someone start an 11/70 orphanage for all those unwanted machines? Cheers, Heinz From mythtech at Mac.com Fri Oct 26 23:22:36 2001 From: mythtech at Mac.com (Chris) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:04 2005 Subject: ATEX? Message-ID: <200110270422.XAA44974@opal.tseinc.com> Does anyone know anything about an ATEX system? A friend works for a local newspaper, and they use a system called ATEX (that is the only name anyone seems to know it by) to submit stories to press. It has a remote dial-in ability and I just wasted 3 hours tonight trying to teach my friend's friend how to use a terminal program to access the system (it would have been less time if my friend would have shut up and stopped trying to help... he just couldn't grasp that Zterm on the mac that he uses shares no common abilities with HyperTerm on windows that his friend is using). My point to this is, I realized after spending 3 hours on this, that in the SAME 3 hours, I could have written a simple GUI application to speak to the system and made life a million times easier. When I mentioned this to him and his friend, they started to drool. It seems most of the writers there use the remote ATEX dialup, and they ALL hate the command line terminals. He said people there would love to get access to a nice friendly program. That of course sang songs of Shareware into my head. So my question is... what are the possible commands that ATEX can use? My friend knows a handful of the basic common ones, which is a good starting ground, but he doesn't use all the features. He also knows there are features he uses from the terminals at work, that he can't use from home, because there are custom keys for them (I am sure they are just F keys that are mapped to certain commands, but that is above his head). He said he will try to get info on the system, but having dealt with the paper's IT staff before, I am sure he will hit a road block. I am looking for any info that anyone might have on one of these systems. I am SURE it is classic, as I know the same terminals are in use now as were in use when I toured the paper's offices in the 3rd grade. -chris From jpero at sympatico.ca Fri Oct 26 19:34:03 2001 From: jpero at sympatico.ca (jpero@sympatico.ca) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:04 2005 Subject: VLB SCSI? In-Reply-To: <1108.699T300T13563765optimus@canit.se> References: <3BD8510F.738341B1@internet1.net> Message-ID: <20011027042446.BCLP19401.tomts15-srv.bellnexxia.net@duron> > Date: 26 Oct 2001 22:36:6 +0100 > From: "Iggy Drougge" > Subject: Re: VLB SCSI? > To: "Chad Fernandez" > Reply-to: classiccmp@classiccmp.org > Chad Fernandez skrev: > > >I would consider VLB to be classic, or at least "legacy". I guess it > >depends on the definition. I don't think any VLB cards have been > >shipped for quite some time. They were mainly a 486 class bus. Did any > >Pentium or 386 class motherboards come with VLB slots? > > I think I've got a Pentium VLB mobo laying about in the public spaces here... Based on OPTI chipset and very poor quality, works w/ 1 72pin simm but severely penalizes performance. Pair up of memory simms and performance improves but not as fast as true pentium chipsets. Some of them can be set up either 486 or pentium. > While I haven't seen any 386 VLB boards, I've got an AST 386 where the CPU > (AMD surface-mount clone) is fit on a daughter card which plugs into a VLB > slot, though it's far away from the ISA slots. AST uses still-born CUPID slot. Usually grouped of 3 slots. I have seen 386dx, 486 CPUID cards but they don't exhange easily on different AST CUPID motherboard. I know because I have done that before. AST did make pentium CPUID cards also. > Another odd PC mobo I've got is a 486 board with ISA, possible VLB as well, > and a DX-50 Overdrive processor. Well, that's not so strange, but in the > middle of the board, there is a DIN connector, like a VME or Nubus connector. > What could that be? Sounds like AMI board for 486 or cache card upgrade for that DIN connector. I had this one before (386dx 25 version (baby AT w/ bit of left edge bit wider than rear half. That also has this DIN style connector for 486 upgrade). Very nice! I think that model I had was type 19 or 39 (386-486). Would like to find one again. The bizarre motherboard I can think of using 386sx style CPU based on IBM 486SLC2 50 w/ 2 VLB slots and 64K cache room for extra 64K for 128K total. It does work but performance stank due to 32 bits vlb crimped down to 16 then back up 32 and vice vesa. A vendor made them for IBM and IBM used them in their "early clones" machine. Took me long time to find the jumper info. Ugh. VLB was originally designed for 486 but also works w/ 386dx cpus based on OPTI. I had one but dumped it because the designer of it wasn't doing good job of it w/ certain cards espcially ATI Ultra in 16bit bios mode is dead. In 8 bit mode works but very slow. > -- > En ligne avec Thor 2.6a. Cheers, Wizard From dittman at dittman.net Fri Oct 26 23:30:47 2001 From: dittman at dittman.net (Eric Dittman) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:04 2005 Subject: RD54 and RT-11 5.4D Message-ID: <200110270430.f9R4Ulc02094@narnia.int.dittman.net> I recently swapped the MV II CPU and memory in my BA23 with a PDP-11/73 CPU and memory. I booted RT-11 V5.4D and attempted to init the RD54, which failed: .init /segment:5 du0: DU0:/Initialize; Are you sure? Y ?DUP-F-Directory output error DU0: . The drive was working just fine as a ODS-2 volume. I don't have to low-level format, do I? -- Eric Dittman dittman@dittman.net Check out the DEC Enthusiasts Club at http://www.dittman.net/ From gwynp at artware.qc.ca Fri Oct 26 23:50:20 2001 From: gwynp at artware.qc.ca (gwynp@artware.qc.ca) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:04 2005 Subject: VLB SCSI? In-Reply-To: <3BD8510F.738341B1@internet1.net> Message-ID: On 25-Oct-2001 Chad Fernandez wrote: > I would consider VLB to be classic, or at least "legacy". I guess it > depends on the definition. I don't think any VLB cards have been > shipped for quite some time. They were mainly a 486 class bus. Did any > Pentium or 386 class motherboards come with VLB slots? IIRC, my first Pentium motherboard that had VLB, ISA and PCI. I don't think I still have it though. At one point, I gave it to my SO (at the time) who brought it into to a PC shop to have it installed in her computer (which was a 486). The tech muttered something about "I'd hoped never to meet a motherboard that had both VLB and PCI". -Philip From mythtech at Mac.com Sat Oct 27 01:08:45 2001 From: mythtech at Mac.com (Chris) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:04 2005 Subject: ATEX? Message-ID: <200110270608.BAA45943@opal.tseinc.com> >Does anyone know anything about an ATEX system? Ok... ignore me. I over zealously posted this question to the list because you people are just so damn smart. If I had bothered to even LOOK for myself, I would have found ATEX.com, which even has a press release mentioning how The Record (the paper my friend works at) has been a user of theirs for over 25 years. So I think I found at least a strong pointer in the right direction. (Although, if anyone has a list of commands an ATEX system accepts, that would also be helpful... however, it seems they have a number of different systems available) Sorry for wasting the bandwidth. -chris From spedraja at ono.com Sat Oct 27 01:26:49 2001 From: spedraja at ono.com (SP) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:04 2005 Subject: value of classic DEC machines? Message-ID: <005601c15eb0$5c6d3340$0301a8c0@marga> Yes if this is in Europe :-) Regards Sergio -----Mensaje original----- De: Heinz Wolter Para: classiccmp@classiccmp.org Fecha: s?bado, 27 de octubre de 2001 6:47 Asunto: Re: value of classic DEC machines? >> I have an 11/70 and it's a beautiful machine. I'd love to have another to >> play with. >> >> Peace... Sridhar > >For every dog, there is a flea... >I'll send the scrap truck over to your huge warehouse next time;) >I've already turned down 2 complete 11/70s due to size- >you'll find most 11/70 configs too physically large for >most home or basement collections (3 racks?). They're also >hungry on the power side, so I don't run my Datasystem 570- >a repackaged 11/70 in a vax780-like "wide bay" - even if it >lives in a warehouse... > >At least two commercial DEC restorers I know basically scrap >the 70's (since "no one wants them" - which I read "no one wants >to pay for them" ) or are forced to remove them along with more >interesting stuff as part of the deal (and scrap them later;) >Should someone start an 11/70 orphanage for all those >unwanted machines? > >Cheers, >Heinz > From ernestls at home.com Sat Oct 27 01:43:38 2001 From: ernestls at home.com (Ernest) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:04 2005 Subject: blinkenlights for everybody (?) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-classiccmp@classiccmp.org > [mailto:owner-classiccmp@classiccmp.org]On Behalf Of Gooijen H > Sent: Friday, October 26, 2001 4:34 AM > To: 'classiccmp@classiccmp.org' > Cc: Gooijen H > Subject: blinkenlights for everybody (?) > > > Hi all. > > Some weeks ago there was a thread about blinkenlights and consoles. > It was mentioned that a simple piece of hardware (just a few > resistors two transistors and 16 LEDs) connected to the printer port > of a PC can be brought to life when you run Ersatz-11. > Well, it took some time for me to decide whether I should go 'public' > with a project I intend to embark on. > In short: a *_full_* console on a PC that runs Ersatz-11. > The reason to announce the project is to get feedback. Am I on the > right track. Have a look, on this page (part of my website) you can > find a small ZIP file that contains the draft document that descibes > it. > > http://home.hetnet.nl/~tshaj/pdpsite/homebrew/startframe.html > > Any comment is appreciated. > > - Henk. Holy smokes! That is COOL. I would love to have a blinking lights display for my computer under RH linux, especially if the lights are actually telling me something -like the HD led flashing when I open a program, or bandwidth lights on my hub. I love that stuff. E. From spedraja at ono.com Sat Oct 27 02:12:14 2001 From: spedraja at ono.com (SP) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:04 2005 Subject: H9672 or H984 por one PDP/11 23 PLUS needed Message-ID: <009e01c15eb6$b4905060$0301a8c0@marga> Hi there. Can somebody tell me a good place to obtain one H9672 or one H984 enclosures to put my PDP-11 23 PLUS enclosure plus another BA11 for expansion purposes I have ? I should like to know it because it's possible that I could obtain one Shugart 8" disk and one or two SMD. I have too one TS05 that I want to begin to hack, and I'd like to get all of them together and working. I have too three Shugart SA-800 8" floppy units that I must clean and probe. I need one enclosure for two of these units, that comes with power supply. Thanks and Greetings Sergio From vance at ikickass.org Sat Oct 27 02:15:29 2001 From: vance at ikickass.org (One Without Reason) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:04 2005 Subject: value of classic DEC machines? In-Reply-To: <005901c15e9e$0d0bb7c0$3a92a8c0@MAGGIE> Message-ID: On Sat, 27 Oct 2001, Heinz Wolter wrote: > For every dog, there is a flea... > I'll send the scrap truck over to your huge warehouse next time;) > I've already turned down 2 complete 11/70s due to size- > you'll find most 11/70 configs too physically large for > most home or basement collections (3 racks?). They're also > hungry on the power side, so I don't run my Datasystem 570- > a repackaged 11/70 in a vax780-like "wide bay" - even if it > lives in a warehouse... When I was born (indeed, before I was born, when the machine was new), up to a point in the late 80's, my father had an 11/70 in the house. He was a FORTRAN programmer, being a chemist by training. It's on what I learned to program. I can find homes for 11/70s, even if I can't keep them. And if I *really* want to keep one, I will take out a storage locker for one. I also have machines that use more power than an 11/70. > At least two commercial DEC restorers I know basically scrap > the 70's (since "no one wants them" - which I read "no one wants > to pay for them" ) or are forced to remove them along with more > interesting stuff as part of the deal (and scrap them later;) > Should someone start an 11/70 orphanage for all those > unwanted machines? This breaks my heart. I love these machines. They're fast. It sucks that these people would rather scrap out a machine than let a collector have it for free. Peace... Sridhar > Cheers, > Heinz > From edick at idcomm.com Sat Oct 27 02:16:30 2001 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:04 2005 Subject: VLB SCSI? References: <009001c15e97$b7368240$39f09a8d@ajp166> Message-ID: <000a01c15eb7$4cc9bc40$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> My Mom still uses one that's hot-rodded up to 160MHz and has 64MB of RAM. It behaves pretty well, hence, she's not dumb enough to want a new one. I've got a Pentium board with 3 VLB and 3 PCI. That's about right, I think, but I'd surely like to get the ~1994 BIOS updated. Dick ----- Original Message ----- From: "ajp166" To: Sent: Friday, October 26, 2001 9:28 PM Subject: Re: VLB SCSI? > -----Original Message----- > From: Richard Erlacher > > > >I still occasionally have contact with one or more of those 5x86/133's, > but they > >generally had only one VLB slot. I always needed two or more. Whenever > I run > > > I have several of them with two VLB slots and video and IDE/floppy combo > cards. > They are fairly nice with 16mb ram running most anything, they make good > linux boxen. > > Allison > > From edick at idcomm.com Sat Oct 27 02:20:52 2001 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:04 2005 Subject: VLB SCSI? References: Message-ID: <001001c15eb7$e9030580$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> The combination of VLB and PCI apparently is the only way you can use fast ethernet together with solid, reliable, proven SCSI. ISA doesn't support fast ethernet, and from what I've seen, neither does VLB, though those 2842's are hard to beat. The 2940's surely don't do the job. I've still got about 75 of them out there that I visit from time to time, and their owners are, in nearly all cases loath to part with them. They give little or no trouble, all but half a dozen or so are running Win95 or 98 with few complaints. That one particular board seems to have had the formula. Dick ----- Original Message ----- From: To: Sent: Friday, October 26, 2001 10:50 PM Subject: Re: VLB SCSI? > > On 25-Oct-2001 Chad Fernandez wrote: > > I would consider VLB to be classic, or at least "legacy". I guess it > > depends on the definition. I don't think any VLB cards have been > > shipped for quite some time. They were mainly a 486 class bus. Did any > > Pentium or 386 class motherboards come with VLB slots? > > IIRC, my first Pentium motherboard that had VLB, ISA and PCI. I don't > think I still have it though. At one point, I gave it to my SO (at the > time) who brought it into to a PC shop to have it installed in her > computer (which was a 486). The tech muttered something about "I'd hoped > never to meet a motherboard that had both VLB and PCI". > > -Philip > > From edick at idcomm.com Sat Oct 27 02:27:42 2001 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:04 2005 Subject: VLB SCSI? References: <3BD8510F.738341B1@internet1.net> <20011027042446.BCLP19401.tomts15-srv.bellnexxia.net@duron> Message-ID: <001601c15eb8$dd997660$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> I saw a '386 motherboard with VLB slots on Tuesday, but didn't bite. It took me WAY too long to give away all my old '386's, and the only one I kept was one that uses a '287 coprocessor, just for interest. more below ... Dick ----- Original Message ----- From: To: Sent: Friday, October 26, 2001 6:34 PM Subject: Re: VLB SCSI? > > Date: 26 Oct 2001 22:36:6 +0100 > > From: "Iggy Drougge" > > Subject: Re: VLB SCSI? > > To: "Chad Fernandez" > > Reply-to: classiccmp@classiccmp.org > > > Chad Fernandez skrev: > > > > >I would consider VLB to be classic, or at least "legacy". I guess it > > >depends on the definition. I don't think any VLB cards have been > > >shipped for quite some time. They were mainly a 486 class bus. Did any > > >Pentium or 386 class motherboards come with VLB slots? > > > > I think I've got a Pentium VLB mobo laying about in the public spaces here... > > Based on OPTI chipset and very poor quality, works w/ 1 72pin simm > but severely penalizes performance. Pair up of memory simms and > performance improves but not as fast as true pentium chipsets. > Some of them can be set up either 486 or pentium. > If you're going to use it as a server, e.g. under Netware, you don't need a hot processor. The disk I/O proceeds via DMA at the rate at which the drives can go, and the network I/O does too. The CPU is idle much of the time, since it really only manages the transfers and handles directories. With one or two people, 4 at the most, even a '386SX-16 would be plenty. > > > While I haven't seen any 386 VLB boards, I've got an AST 386 where the CPU > > (AMD surface-mount clone) is fit on a daughter card which plugs into a VLB > > slot, though it's far away from the ISA slots. > > AST uses still-born CUPID slot. Usually grouped of 3 slots. I have > seen 386dx, 486 CPUID cards but they don't exhange easily on > different AST CUPID motherboard. I know because I have done that > before. AST did make pentium CPUID cards also. > > > Another odd PC mobo I've got is a 486 board with ISA, possible VLB as well, > > and a DX-50 Overdrive processor. Well, that's not so strange, but in the > > middle of the board, there is a DIN connector, like a VME or Nubus connector. > > What could that be? > > Sounds like AMI board for 486 or cache card upgrade for that DIN > connector. I had this one before (386dx 25 version (baby AT w/ > bit of left edge bit wider than rear half. That also has this DIN > style connector for 486 upgrade). Very nice! I think that model I > had was type 19 or 39 (386-486). Would like to find one again. > > The bizarre motherboard I can think of using 386sx style CPU based on > IBM 486SLC2 50 w/ 2 VLB slots and 64K cache room for extra 64K for > 128K total. It does work but performance stank due to 32 bits vlb > crimped down to 16 then back up 32 and vice vesa. A vendor made them > for IBM and IBM used them in their "early clones" machine. Took me > long time to find the jumper info. Ugh. > > VLB was originally designed for 486 but also works w/ 386dx cpus > based on OPTI. I had one but dumped it because the designer of it > wasn't doing good job of it w/ certain cards espcially ATI Ultra in > 16bit bios mode is dead. In 8 bit mode works but very slow. > > > -- > > En ligne avec Thor 2.6a. > > Cheers, > > Wizard > > From edick at idcomm.com Sat Oct 27 02:30:55 2001 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:04 2005 Subject: SLOT 8 (was: ISA cards for free.. References: Message-ID: <002601c15eb9$50b53c60$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> >From the description I got the other day, it's slots 1, 2, and 3 that don't exist in the PC. Isn't slot 8 the one nearest the power connector? So ... slot 8 was a layout error, then? ... or was it just stupidity? Dick ----- Original Message ----- From: "Tony Duell" To: Sent: Friday, October 26, 2001 4:39 PM Subject: Re: SLOT 8 (was: ISA cards for free.. > > > > At 04:11 PM 10/25/2001 -0700, you wrote: > > >"SLOT 8" compatible IS NOT ABOUT 8 bit v 16 bit! > > >"SLOT 8" compatible is whether it will work in an IBM XT (not > > >compatibles) in slot #8 (the slot closest to the power supply). > > >In the REAL IBM XT (not necessarily compatibles), that slot is different > > >from the other 7. > > Was this an issue in the PC, or just the PC/XT? > > The problem with slot 8 in the PC is that it doesn't exist :-). The PC > only has 5 slots. > > More seriously, the IBM PC/XT is the only true-blue IBM PC family machine > to have this 'problem'. All the slots are electrically identical on the > PC. And on the expansion unit. And on the AT and PC/286 (well, there are > some 8-bit only slots and some with the 16 bit extension on both of those > machines, but all the 16 bit slots are the same, and the 8 bit part of > all 8 slots is the same). No problems with one slot being the 'wrong > side' of a buffer. > > -tony > > From edick at idcomm.com Sat Oct 27 02:36:37 2001 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:04 2005 Subject: SLOT 8 (was: ISA cards for free.. References: Message-ID: <002c01c15eba$1c5efe00$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> Actually, if one counts up the loads ... it does require an extra buffer to handle 8 slots, so it seems they've split the bus between two buffers. Of course they're in series, which makes them skewed somewhat, but at 5 MHz ... who cares? Apparently they're counting to a pretty conservative standard, however. Dick ----- Original Message ----- From: "Tony Duell" To: Sent: Friday, October 26, 2001 4:45 PM Subject: Re: SLOT 8 (was: ISA cards for free.. > > > What's different about that slot? > > > > "Wrong" side of a buffer. > > From a quick glance at the schematics, there's the CPU data bus which is > buffered by a '245. The far side of that goes to the first 7 slots, and > to memory on the motherboard, etc. And to one side of another '245. The > other side of that goes to the data lines on the motherboard I/O chips, > the BIOS ROMs, and to the data lines on slot 8. The card in slot 8 has to > pull a line low during reads to enable this last buffer. > > No idea why they did this, if indeed there is a good reason. > > > > > I've never owned a "real" XT, so I've never > > > had to wrestle with that. My first PC was a '186-based clone, and I've never > > > looked back. Was that "slot-8" compatibility creature a bug in the PC as well? > > > > IBM had a LOT of serial cards that nobody wanted (on a 5 slot PC, the > > Although the IBM Async card does have the current loop feature which most > clones missed off. Of course I'm about the only person to want something > like that :-) > > > market wanted multifunction!) > > Every XT from IBM came with a "FREE" serial card. It blocked slot 8 from > > being used by anything else that MIGHT have a problem with it, and gave > > the public image impression of a generous (they were more expensive then!) > > freebie. > > IBM screwed up a bit on the design of the portablePC. This uses a normal > XT motherboard (with the slot 8 problem). But the positioning of the disk > drives means that an Async card will just not fit in slot 8 (it's > litterally about 1/4" too small a space). So slot 8 is essentially > wasted. IMHO that machine should have been a little deeper from front to > back (nobody would have noticed) so that the async card would fit in slot 8. > > -tony > > From jss at subatomix.com Sat Oct 27 03:04:43 2001 From: jss at subatomix.com (Jeffrey S. Sharp) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:04 2005 Subject: value of classic DEC machines? In-Reply-To: <005901c15e9e$0d0bb7c0$3a92a8c0@MAGGIE> Message-ID: <20011027025607.Y63446-100000@lepton.subatomix.com> On Sat, 27 Oct 2001, Heinz Wolter wrote: > I've already turned down 2 complete 11/70s due to size Wha?!?! <8-O > At least two commercial DEC restorers I know basically scrap the 70's > (since "no one wants them" - which I read "no one wants to pay for > them" ) or are forced to remove them along with more interesting stuff > as part of the deal (and scrap them later;) WHAAA?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?! > Should someone start an 11/70 orphanage for all those unwanted > machines? Well, I could provide a home to *several*! We need to divert some of those machines to me. How easily could that be arranged? -- Jeffrey S. Sharp jss@subatomix.com From mikeford at socal.rr.com Sat Oct 27 02:21:22 2001 From: mikeford at socal.rr.com (Mike Ford) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:04 2005 Subject: VLB SCSI? In-Reply-To: <000901c15e2f$f56b2c40$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> References: <200110251529.f9PFTE003375@narnia.int.dittman.net> <3BD79436.8327AB4E@internet1.net> <001101c15e21$072ce900$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> <3BD81C2D.D7FBFDE8@internet1.net> Message-ID: >I've got a box full of various models of AHA2940 and 3940 that don't work >in all >systems, and most of them don't work in any system at all. Most of them >exhibit >one of two symptoms. (1) they don't work in systems with a bus clock >25 MHz, >or (2) they don't find any SCSI devices, irrespective of the fact that other >2940's, among others, find them just fine. The longest I've ever had a 2940AU >(the only type that seems to work in all applications) last is 6 months. >Fortunately, the old 152x types and 151x types seem to keep on going ... Adaptec has a 5 year warranty on the 2940 cards, just RMA them. From spectre at stockholm.ptloma.edu Sat Oct 27 04:23:28 2001 From: spectre at stockholm.ptloma.edu (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:04 2005 Subject: OT: Re: Periodic rants on eBay In-Reply-To: <9011A52E011ED311B4280004AC1BA615014671C5@yalepress3.unipress.yale.edu> from David Woyciesjes at "Oct 26, 1 09:56:11 am" Message-ID: <200110270923.CAA13410@stockholm.ptloma.edu> > > > You know, if someone is going to be an excited collector, > > > they should be > > > an EDUCATED collector. ALL macs up thru the Plus and part > > > way thru the SE > > > were signed on the inside by the original design team. > > > > For that matter, my IIcis both have the signatures in the > > bottom of the case. > > Where exactly in the bottom? I'll have to check mine... Pull out the motherboard. -- ----------------------------- personal page: http://www.armory.com/~spectre/ -- Cameron Kaiser, Point Loma Nazarene University * ckaiser@stockholm.ptloma.edu -- Born free. Taxed to death. ------------------------------------------------- From ms at silke.rt.schwaben.de Sat Oct 27 06:58:12 2001 From: ms at silke.rt.schwaben.de (Michael Schneider) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:04 2005 Subject: MacOS DHCP Server? References: Message-ID: <3BDAA154.43249A85@silke.rt.schwaben.de> Here in Germany: Yes! ms One Without Reason wrote: > > On Fri, 26 Oct 2001, Kent Borg wrote: > > > On Fri, Oct 26, 2001 at 12:14:00AM -0700, Mike Ford wrote: > > > Abandoneware is one thing [...] > > > > > Wants some fun, buy an EXPENSIVE sealed retail box new old stock product, > > > then without opening the envelope with the discs, send a letter to the > > > company informing them that you are NOT willing to comply with the terms of > > > their license agreement and want a refund of the retail price of the > > > package. > > > > Interesting idea. > > > > If I buy a book I own that copy, not the right to copy it, not a > > "license" forming an agreement between me and some other party, but I > > own the book itself. Familiar stuff. > > This leads to an interesting situation. Can you make, say, 50,000,000 > copies of a book, and send it to its rightful owner? > > Peace... Sridhar -- Michael Schneider email: ms@silke.rt.schwaben.de Germany http://www.vaxcluster.de People disagree with me. I just ignore them. (Linus Torvalds) From quapla at xs4all.nl Sat Oct 27 10:29:27 2001 From: quapla at xs4all.nl (The Wanderer) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:04 2005 Subject: blinkenlights for everybody (?) References: Message-ID: <3BDAD2D7.B640BEC7@xs4all.nl> Hello Henk, A great idea! Now, if the I/O sandwich board could also be configured for use with an original PDP panel, then that will be even better. I'm quite sure there are several list members who have a panel but do not necessarely have the attached hardware. Using a separate SBC to control the panel (new or original) can also mean that it can be linked with Bob Supniks PDP emulator, although some additional interface routines may need to be written. In any case, this makes a new model in the PDP series, the PDP-11/486. Ed Gooijen H wrote: > > Hi all. > > Some weeks ago there was a thread about blinkenlights and consoles. > It was mentioned that a simple piece of hardware (just a few > resistors two transistors and 16 LEDs) connected to the printer port > of a PC can be brought to life when you run Ersatz-11. > Well, it took some time for me to decide whether I should go 'public' > with a project I intend to embark on. > In short: a *_full_* console on a PC that runs Ersatz-11. > The reason to announce the project is to get feedback. Am I on the > right track. Have a look, on this page (part of my website) you can > find a small ZIP file that contains the draft document that descibes > it. > > http://home.hetnet.nl/~tshaj/pdpsite/homebrew/startframe.html > > Any comment is appreciated. > > - Henk. -- The Wanderer | Politici zijn gore oplichters. quapla@xs4all.nl | Europarlementariers: zakkenvullers http://www.xs4all.nl/~quapla | en neuspeuteraars. Unix Lives! M$ Windows is rommel! | Kilometerheffing : De overheid '97 TL1000S | weet waar je bent geweest! From vaxman at qwest.net Sat Oct 27 08:37:00 2001 From: vaxman at qwest.net (Clint Wolff (VAX collector)) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:04 2005 Subject: Falling off the internet In-Reply-To: <3BD85278.CAECE909@internet1.net> Message-ID: No, the announcement has been floating about for a while, but they hadn't decided what to do about the non-windows users. It is my understanding you cannot send or receive EMail through MSN without using Outlook Express (also know as the biggest virus propagator known to man). So, when they notified me my account was being moved, I called up and canceled. I'll be here until 31-Oct-01, but after that???? Clint On Thu, 25 Oct 2001, Chad Fernandez wrote: > Did that JUST get announced? I knew about that about a month ago, or > more. I assumed it was already happening when I heard about it. I have > a relative that does tech support for Quest :-) > > Chad Fernandez > Michigan, USA > > "Clint Wolff (VAX collector)" wrote: > > > > I just received notification from Qwest that I am being moved to > > MSN, so I will be falling off the internet for a while until I > > get a new DSL provider hooked up. > > > > If there is desire to reach me, my work email is: > > > > clintw@colorado.cirrus.com > > > > Y'all be good, and play nice together :) > > > > Clint > > From vaxman at qwest.net Sat Oct 27 08:44:07 2001 From: vaxman at qwest.net (Clint Wolff (VAX collector)) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:04 2005 Subject: Falling off the internet In-Reply-To: <001f01c15e5e$ff39cf40$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> Message-ID: Qwest will still provide the DSL connection to another ISP, but it costs more for the same service I am getting now... The main reason for cancelling my Qwest DSL is to say 'screw you and microsoft too'... The secondary reason is to get a static IP without paying excessive fees for a block of 8... Earthlink & Covad offer a static IP DSL service using PPPoet that I should be able to make work under FreeBSD. 1.5MB down, 256? up, full time connection, static IP, $64.95 a month. Seems like a smoking deal to me... And QWest doesn't get a dime... And everyone I've talked to about earthlink is reasonablly happy... Clint On Fri, 26 Oct 2001, Richard Erlacher wrote: > Don't you have any choice about this? Does it mean that your DSL connection is > no longer supported by Qwest? Since they are the only phone company, aren't > they obliged to provide you with that service? In shameless self-interest, I'd > recommend you consider id communications www.idcomm.com (303 790-4343) as an ISP > rather than going with MSN. My sources tell me that MSN offers the worst > service available in our geographic area, second only to AOL, and that Qwest is > only a teensy bit better. Moreover, id offers full service, while AOL, MSN, and > Qwest leave some services out or charge extra. > > It's about provisioning, doncha know! > > Tell 'e I sent you. They'll charge you extra, of course, but tell 'em anyway. > > Dick > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Clint Wolff (VAX collector)" > To: > Sent: Friday, October 26, 2001 9:16 AM > Subject: Falling off the internet > > > > > > I just received notification from Qwest that I am being moved to > > MSN, so I will be falling off the internet for a while until I > > get a new DSL provider hooked up. > > > > If there is desire to reach me, my work email is: > > > > clintw@colorado.cirrus.com > > > > Y'all be good, and play nice together :) > > > > Clint > > > > > > > > > From jfoust at threedee.com Sat Oct 27 08:44:46 2001 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:04 2005 Subject: ATEX? In-Reply-To: <200110270422.XAA44974@opal.tseinc.com> Message-ID: <4.3.2.7.0.20011027084225.02253490@pc> At 12:22 AM 10/27/01 -0400, Chris wrote: >Does anyone know anything about an ATEX system? >A friend works for a local newspaper, and they use a system called ATEX >(that is the only name anyone seems to know it by) They've been mentioned on the list before - at least the older ATEX systems were PDP-based. Below is one from a few months ago. - John X-Authentication-Warning: opal.tseinc.com: majordom set sender to owner-classiccmp@classiccmp.org using -f Received: from iris.services.ou.edu (iris.services.ou.edu [129.15.2.125]) by opal.tseinc.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id VAA90879 for ; Thu, 7 Jun 2001 21:32:35 -0500 (CDT) (envelope-from jss@iris.services.ou.edu) Received: from iris.services.ou.edu by iris.services.ou.edu (Sun Internet Mail Server sims.4.0.2000.10.12.16.25.p8) id <0GEL00K01B29JI@iris.services.ou.edu> for classiccmp@classiccmp.org; Thu, 7 Jun 2001 21:32:33 -0500 (CDT) Date: Thu, 07 Jun 2001 21:32:33 -0500 (CDT) From: "Jeffrey S. Sharp" Subject: Huge PDP-11 rescue opportunity X-Originating-IP: 65.26.237.206 To: ClassicCmp Mailing List Message-id: <991967553.3b20394186926@email.ou.edu> Organization: The University of Oklahoma MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; CHARSET=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT User-Agent: IMP/PHP IMAP webmail program 2.2.0 Sender: owner-classiccmp@classiccmp.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org Status: Well, I guess it's time to let the cat out of the bag with this one... I've been planning a very nice equipment rescue in Seattle for some time now, but as circumstances are, I will not be able to afford the trip. I'd rather not see anything scrapped, so I am hoping someone on the list will be able to pick up where I'm leaving off. What we have is a *bunch* of OEM and third-party PDP-11 equipment. Here's an overview. There are two types of systems: old and new. Both were made by ATEX using a combination of DEC and custom hardware. The old systems consisted of, originally, PDP-11/34s and 04s. These were upgraded later on by replacing the CPU cards with with a single card with a J11 processor and a SIMM on board. The old systems are in black 6ft racks which have a blue ATEX legend at the top instead of the traditional DEC legend. Each rack contains one PDP-11/34 or /04 box up top and an additional backplane down below with gobs of custom ATEX cards. Each of the new systems looks a bit like two PDP-11/44s in a white 4ft cabinet, but as I understand it, they use the same boards as the updated old systems. The systems are "networked" using some special hardware that connects all of the Unibuses. They share a system of disks and a tape drive. Some of the systems have a built-in small SCSI drive and JAZ drive; these particular machines may not be available at the moment. Here's an inventory. Old systems (13 total): 9 currently in operation, 5 available next month 4 out of operation, 2 available now They're going to keep 4 of these for another year. New systems (8 total): 4 currently in operation, 4 available next month (?) 4 out of operation, 4 available now Approximately 20 hard drive systems. These were some sort of CDC 8" drive, but were converted to 300MB-1GB SCSI drives. The cases were reused. At least one Kennedy 9100 tape drive. Boxes of old boards and spare boards. As you might have guessed, they are still in the process of decommisioning the systems. As far as I can tell, each cabinet is being removed from the computer room as it decommisioned and prepared for shipping. The prepped cabinets are brought to a warehouse where they await pickup. The owners want $100 for the entire lot. If you are interested in rescuing this lot, please reply to me. The owners wish not to be barraged with e-mail, so I will manage the selection and briefing of the new picker-upper. I have a contact in Seattle that went to the location, took pictures, and wrote most of what you just read. I can send those pictures to anyone who's interested. >From what I can see, the equipment looks to be in pristine condition, having been well cared for in their computer room. I hope that it makes a nice find for someone. -- Jeffrey S. Sharp jss@ou.edu From jfoust at threedee.com Sat Oct 27 08:39:09 2001 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:04 2005 Subject: value of classic DEC machines? In-Reply-To: <20011027025607.Y63446-100000@lepton.subatomix.com> References: <005901c15e9e$0d0bb7c0$3a92a8c0@MAGGIE> Message-ID: <4.3.2.7.0.20011027083631.02257e40@pc> At 03:04 AM 10/27/01 -0500, you wrote: >On Sat, 27 Oct 2001, Heinz Wolter wrote: >> I've already turned down 2 complete 11/70s due to size >Wha?!?! <8-O I got a call from a guy in Milwaukee who left an 11/34 on the curb a few months ago, before he discovered there were collectors online. He still has a few old DEC tape drives he needs to unload. Hes going to send a list and I'll forward it here. - John P.S. - Al Kossow - it was Mike Hanus. From john_boffemmyer_iv at boff-net.dhs.org Sat Oct 27 08:51:23 2001 From: john_boffemmyer_iv at boff-net.dhs.org (John Boffemmyer IV) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:05 2005 Subject: VLB SCSI? In-Reply-To: <001601c15eb8$dd997660$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> References: <3BD8510F.738341B1@internet1.net> <20011027042446.BCLP19401.tomts15-srv.bellnexxia.net@duron> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20011027093029.00a6d830@sokieserv.dhs.org> Ok, i know i see flames coming on this one but i have to ask, hell, it's for my mother. Does anyone have a spare AT pentium board with docs? Hers was for a 386/486/P90 when the P90's were new and it died the horrible death of blown circuits. She really loved the machine and i'm looking for a way to give it back to her working once again. No Sridhar, put the hammer down, hehe. Anyone have any ideas, it had 2 VESA Local Bus slots, 3 ISA and 2 PCI? I'm willing to pay reasonably for it, even more if it actually has a chip on it. I have an original Zoom 14.4 VFX14.4V Serial modem with working power block and DB25M/F Serial cable (components dated 1991 and 1993 - probably cuz this is the voice/fax model). Was the like the one used in that stupid movie "Hackers" and is only missing the black semi-see-through faceplate. I'd toss that up for grabs with money for anyone who can help me out. And yes, still working on figuring out all of the damned SOL stuff. Chandra, if Newburgh (45 mins from Danbury) isn't too far from Boston, let me know, the SOL's still here. -John At 03:27 AM 10/27/01, you wrote: >I saw a '386 motherboard with VLB slots on Tuesday, but didn't bite. It >took me >WAY too long to give away all my old '386's, and the only one I kept was one >that uses a '287 coprocessor, just for interest. > >more below ... > >Dick > >----- Original Message ----- >From: >To: >Sent: Friday, October 26, 2001 6:34 PM >Subject: Re: VLB SCSI? > > > > > Date: 26 Oct 2001 22:36:6 +0100 > > > From: "Iggy Drougge" > > > Subject: Re: VLB SCSI? > > > To: "Chad Fernandez" > > > Reply-to: classiccmp@classiccmp.org > > > > > Chad Fernandez skrev: > > > > > > >I would consider VLB to be classic, or at least "legacy". I guess it > > > >depends on the definition. I don't think any VLB cards have been > > > >shipped for quite some time. They were mainly a 486 class bus. Did any > > > >Pentium or 386 class motherboards come with VLB slots? > > > > > > I think I've got a Pentium VLB mobo laying about in the public spaces >here... > > > > Based on OPTI chipset and very poor quality, works w/ 1 72pin simm > > but severely penalizes performance. Pair up of memory simms and > > performance improves but not as fast as true pentium chipsets. > > Some of them can be set up either 486 or pentium. > > >If you're going to use it as a server, e.g. under Netware, you don't need >a hot >processor. The disk I/O proceeds via DMA at the rate at which the drives can >go, and the network I/O does too. The CPU is idle much of the time, since it >really only manages the transfers and handles directories. With one or two >people, 4 at the most, even a '386SX-16 would be plenty. > > > > > While I haven't seen any 386 VLB boards, I've got an AST 386 where > the CPU > > > (AMD surface-mount clone) is fit on a daughter card which plugs into > a VLB > > > slot, though it's far away from the ISA slots. > > > > AST uses still-born CUPID slot. Usually grouped of 3 slots. I have > > seen 386dx, 486 CPUID cards but they don't exhange easily on > > different AST CUPID motherboard. I know because I have done that > > before. AST did make pentium CPUID cards also. > > > > > Another odd PC mobo I've got is a 486 board with ISA, possible VLB as > well, > > > and a DX-50 Overdrive processor. Well, that's not so strange, but in the > > > middle of the board, there is a DIN connector, like a VME or Nubus >connector. > > > What could that be? > > > > Sounds like AMI board for 486 or cache card upgrade for that DIN > > connector. I had this one before (386dx 25 version (baby AT w/ > > bit of left edge bit wider than rear half. That also has this DIN > > style connector for 486 upgrade). Very nice! I think that model I > > had was type 19 or 39 (386-486). Would like to find one again. > > > > The bizarre motherboard I can think of using 386sx style CPU based on > > IBM 486SLC2 50 w/ 2 VLB slots and 64K cache room for extra 64K for > > 128K total. It does work but performance stank due to 32 bits vlb > > crimped down to 16 then back up 32 and vice vesa. A vendor made them > > for IBM and IBM used them in their "early clones" machine. Took me > > long time to find the jumper info. Ugh. > > > > VLB was originally designed for 486 but also works w/ 386dx cpus > > based on OPTI. I had one but dumped it because the designer of it > > wasn't doing good job of it w/ certain cards espcially ATI Ultra in > > 16bit bios mode is dead. In 8 bit mode works but very slow. > > > > > -- > > > En ligne avec Thor 2.6a. > > > > Cheers, > > > > Wizard > > > > ---------------------------------------- Founder, Lead Writer, Tech Analyst and Web Designer Boff-Net Technologies http://boff-net.dhs.org/index.html --------------------------------------- From fernande at internet1.net Fri Oct 26 09:08:39 2001 From: fernande at internet1.net (Chad Fernandez) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:05 2005 Subject: VLB SCSI? References: <009001c15e97$b7368240$39f09a8d@ajp166> <000a01c15eb7$4cc9bc40$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> Message-ID: <3BD96E67.4278FDE7@internet1.net> Dick, If I recall correctly, waaaayy back in the mid 90s :-), I heard that the VLB/PCI boards were slower than a board with one or the other combined with ISA. Have you, or anyone else experienced that? This thread reminded me of a friend in collage, who at the time was trying to decide if he wanted to get PCI or VLB. I said, why not get a MB with both, and he said that they weren't as fast as a motherboard with only one or the other. Chad Fernandez Michigan, USA Richard Erlacher wrote: > > My Mom still uses one that's hot-rodded up to 160MHz and has 64MB of RAM. It > behaves pretty well, hence, she's not dumb enough to want a new one. > > I've got a Pentium board with 3 VLB and 3 PCI. That's about right, I think, but > I'd surely like to get the ~1994 BIOS updated. > > Dick From allain at panix.com Sat Oct 27 10:10:03 2001 From: allain at panix.com (John Allain) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:05 2005 Subject: value of classic DEC machines? References: Message-ID: <000b01c15ef9$754972e0$8a0101ac@ibm23xhr06> > My father had an 11/70 in the house. > ...It's on what I learned to program I have to know... When did you compile your first program? Care to list a few milestones? > I can find homes for 11/70s, even if I can't keep them. List me as one home-to-be for a working '11 system. Anybody know if an 11/70 can be fit into a single rack? > It sucks that these people would rather scrap out a machine > than let a collector have it for free. I think I could pay scrap (.gt. free ) value. John A. From MTPro at aol.com Sat Oct 27 10:32:52 2001 From: MTPro at aol.com (MTPro@aol.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:05 2005 Subject: Stan Veit's History of the PC Books - Blow Out - $4 Shipped! Message-ID: I have a number of brand new copies I'd like to move out. This is a super deal just for classiccmp subscribers. Please e-mail me! For more info on the book, see: http://cgi.ebay.com/aw-cgi/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=1289515294 Best, David David Greelish Classic Computing www.classiccomputing.com "classiccomputing" on eBay From zmerch at 30below.com Sat Oct 27 11:40:24 2001 From: zmerch at 30below.com (Roger Merchberger) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:05 2005 Subject: Was OT, now on... Re: [OT] New toy... In-Reply-To: <13686050303.16.DSEAGRAV@toad.xkl.com> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20011027123337.01baa6d8@mail.30below.com> Rumor has it that Daniel A. Seagraves may have mentioned these words: >I got a new toy today... The FCC granted me the callsign KC9ALV. >Now not only can I annoy my mom by leaving large computer parts around >the house, I can annoy her by coming over the phone lines and TV and such. ^_^ [snippety] Congrats -- I'd urge you to get the 5wpm & start studying for the General & Extra - there's weird talk about what's going to happen, and there are some proponents out there in HAMland who might move the wpm limitation for Extra back up a notch... nobody knows for sure. To go back ontopic, I run a mailing list for Tandy Models 1001/102/200 or any other Kyocera OEM'd compatible laptop - and there's a person who keeps a list of HAM radio operators who use (or at least own) those laptops. You do not need to be subbed to my listserve to be on the ham listing. The person's hame is Ron Wiesen, and he can be reached on my list at m100@list.30below.com. I don't want to give out his real email address, as I do not have permission to do so. There are currently 98 HAMs on that list! Dunno if you own one, but if you do, you might wanna give a shout! HTH, Roger "Merch" Merchberger From jss at subatomix.com Sat Oct 27 11:53:57 2001 From: jss at subatomix.com (Jeffrey S. Sharp) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:05 2005 Subject: ATEX? In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.0.20011027084225.02253490@pc> Message-ID: <20011027110919.L66916-100000@lepton.subatomix.com> On Sat, 27 Oct 2001, John Foust wrote: > They've been mentioned on the list before - at least the older > ATEX systems were PDP-based. Below is one from a few months ago. > > Date: Thu, 07 Jun 2001 21:32:33 -0500 (CDT) > From: "Jeffrey S. Sharp" > Subject: Huge PDP-11 rescue opportunity > > Well, I guess it's time to let the cat out of the bag with this one... > > I've been planning a very nice equipment rescue in Seattle for some > time now, but as circumstances are, I will not be able to afford the > trip. I'd rather not see anything scrapped, so I am hoping someone on > the list will be able to pick up where I'm leaving off. Yeah, no one was really interested. I don't know what became of those systems. -- Jeffrey S. Sharp jss@subatomix.com From mark_k at totalise.co.uk Sat Oct 27 12:46:55 2001 From: mark_k at totalise.co.uk (Mark) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:05 2005 Subject: Vintage NASA software available Message-ID: Hi, On Fri, 26 Oct 2001 Michael Nadeau wrote: > Open Channel Software is making old NASA applications available for > download. There is a fee involved for what's called the NASA Classics > collection, and the goal is to encourage commercial development of the > applications. The list is at http://www.openchannelsoftware.com/NASA_1.html. > I have no connection with OCS or NASA, but just happened to come across a > press release about the offer. I'm not sure how their current license will encourage any develpment, commercial or otherwise. I looked at the page for one program, for counting lines of source code: http://www.openchannelsoftware.com/projects/SLOCC/ Clicking the "Get SLOCC" link reveals cost of obtaining the source code to this written-in-Microsoft-Access-BASIC program is $100. According to the license, you can use, copy & modify the program only for non- commercial, private, internal purposes. You can't distribute it to anyone else. Very open source. How is that different from any other commercial prodcut for which source code is/was available for a fee? (VMS?) -- Mark From aw288 at osfn.org Sat Oct 27 11:58:05 2001 From: aw288 at osfn.org (William Donzelli) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:05 2005 Subject: value of classic DEC machines? In-Reply-To: <002101c15c94$7af0c840$8a0101ac@ibm23xhr06> Message-ID: > What about history? My book says that only 50 PDP-1's > were produced. Almost certainly 50%++ were scrapped. A good rule of thumb is that one or two precent of anything survives. While it does not sound good for PDP-1s (the reached the "limit"), this rule offers hope for others. William Donzelli aw288@osfn.org From cmcmanis at mcmanis.com Sat Oct 27 12:05:16 2001 From: cmcmanis at mcmanis.com (Chuck McManis) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:05 2005 Subject: value of classic DEC machines? In-Reply-To: <000b01c15ef9$754972e0$8a0101ac@ibm23xhr06> References: Message-ID: <5.0.0.25.2.20011027100328.01b4dc50@209.185.79.193> > List me as one home-to-be for a working '11 system. > Anybody know if an 11/70 can be fit into a single rack? When Eric Smith picked up a bunch of 11/70's we had this discussion. With some third party stuff (like eliminating a memory box) you could probably get it into 1 rack but with original DEC parts the smallest was two racks and you probably didn't have a tape drive. --Chuck From edick at idcomm.com Sat Oct 27 11:56:51 2001 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:05 2005 Subject: VLB SCSI? References: <200110251529.f9PFTE003375@narnia.int.dittman.net> <3BD79436.8327AB4E@internet1.net> <001101c15e21$072ce900$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> <3BD81C2D.D7FBFDE8@internet1.net> Message-ID: <001f01c15f09$09aa88c0$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> I've gone through this process, but it doesn't always produce the results one wishes. Unfortunately, I've not bought a 2940 from Adaptec in over 5 years, since they've been in that box quite a long time. My point was, however, that the several 2842's (the VLB version) I've had have kept on working for nearly a decade, yet Adaptec's most popular board, the 2940 doesn't seem even to outlive its warranty. Adaptec's history (with me) of failing to live up to their promises is another issue. I'm still waiting for them to reimburse me for a defective product I ordered directly from them back in '93, not to mention the $33 freight charges incurred because they arranged for but didn't pay for a FedEx pickup. I've also got a history of uncompleted transactions with them, wherein they've started but failed to complete a transaction of enforcment of their warranty. This seems to be the right hand not knowing what the left hand is doing, as their warranty service guys (at least then) were located in Boulder, and were only too happy to recognize, and verify via email, that I had a valid warranty claim, yet the folks in Iowa, or wherever it is, who actually do the warranty enforcement, don't seem to communicate with them. As a result, I've been left high and dry. It's easier to buy second-hand prodcuts for $5-$20 and tolerate the problems that eventually occur, rather than pay the $150 to buy a new one, knowing that the problems won't be dealt with. Ater all, if a 2940 costs $150, then that's $30/year, and I can get a better deal buying several experienced ones that can, at least, be verified working before I buy them and then keep a couple around as spares. My next level of disk interface for my server will undoubtedly be fiberchannel rather than SCSI, so this whole thing won't be an issue once I've finally convinced myself that the 8-bit SCSI channel is obsolete. Fortunately, ADAPTEC hasn't bought up all their competitors in the FibreChannel market. Dick ----- Original Message ----- From: "Mike Ford" To: Sent: Saturday, October 27, 2001 1:21 AM Subject: Re: VLB SCSI? > >I've got a box full of various models of AHA2940 and 3940 that don't work > >in all > >systems, and most of them don't work in any system at all. Most of them > >exhibit > >one of two symptoms. (1) they don't work in systems with a bus clock >25 MHz, > >or (2) they don't find any SCSI devices, irrespective of the fact that other > >2940's, among others, find them just fine. The longest I've ever had a 2940AU > >(the only type that seems to work in all applications) last is 6 months. > >Fortunately, the old 152x types and 151x types seem to keep on going ... > > Adaptec has a 5 year warranty on the 2940 cards, just RMA them. > > > From mythtech at Mac.com Sat Oct 27 12:04:06 2001 From: mythtech at Mac.com (Chris) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:05 2005 Subject: Falling off the internet Message-ID: <200110271704.MAA53561@opal.tseinc.com> >Earthlink & Covad offer a static IP DSL service using PPPoet that I >should be able to make work under FreeBSD. 1.5MB down, 256? up, full >time connection, static IP, $64.95 a month. Seems like a smoking >deal to me... And QWest doesn't get a dime... And everyone I've >talked to about earthlink is reasonablly happy... I have been using SpeakEasy (www.speakeasy.net) for some time, and have been very happy with them. I have a static IP and no PPPoe! (Of course, I am also on iDSL). They offer a range of services, and a range of prices. You can check them out if you want (I get nothing for refering you, so I don't care either way, just figured I would give you another "good" DSL provider to widen your options) -chris From edick at idcomm.com Sat Oct 27 12:15:38 2001 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:05 2005 Subject: VLB SCSI? References: <009001c15e97$b7368240$39f09a8d@ajp166> <000a01c15eb7$4cc9bc40$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> <3BD96E67.4278FDE7@internet1.net> Message-ID: <002001c15f0a$ffe69de0$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> I'm not sure what you mean by slower. I found that no matter how fast the mfg claims the CPU is running, it does DOS tasks about as fast as a 133 MHz Pentium, and I also found that the difference in performance between these VIP boards at 133 MHz (not for comparison, but just for reference) and the 150 MHz 6x86's that I was using back in '92..'94, was not perceptible. The 6x86 boards were equipped with ISA and PCI, but no VLB, BTW. I suppose someone will eventually build a motherboard that runs fast enough so that when the PCI peripheral interface fails it still saves time to power down the system, swap the offending device, and restart, but that time isn't here yet. It's true that it's possible to build a faster interface on PCI than on VLB. That doesn't mean that the makers of a given circuit did that, however. I doubt that a motherboard designed with both VLB and PCI is necessarily slower than one with PCI only. The VLB is more tightly coupled to the CPU than is the PCI, which is capable of running both faster and slower than the CPU without ill effects, while the VLB did force the CPU to match its rate when it was doing buisness with it. If you stop and think about it, the CPU has to synchronize with the process that's running on the I/O bus anyway, so it's the process rate that effects the CPU speed, not the bus on which it's happening. Of course the clock effects the timing increment ... however minute that might be. Dick ----- Original Message ----- From: "Chad Fernandez" To: Sent: Friday, October 26, 2001 8:08 AM Subject: Re: VLB SCSI? > Dick, > > If I recall correctly, waaaayy back in the mid 90s :-), I heard that the > VLB/PCI boards were slower than a board with one or the other combined > with ISA. Have you, or anyone else experienced that? This thread > reminded me of a friend in collage, who at the time was trying to decide > if he wanted to get PCI or VLB. I said, why not get a MB with both, and > he said that they weren't as fast as a motherboard with only one or the > other. > > Chad Fernandez > Michigan, USA > > Richard Erlacher wrote: > > > > My Mom still uses one that's hot-rodded up to 160MHz and has 64MB of RAM. It > > behaves pretty well, hence, she's not dumb enough to want a new one. > > > > I've got a Pentium board with 3 VLB and 3 PCI. That's about right, I think, but > > I'd surely like to get the ~1994 BIOS updated. > > > > Dick > > From edick at idcomm.com Sat Oct 27 12:20:12 2001 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:05 2005 Subject: VLB SCSI? References: <3BD8510F.738341B1@internet1.net> <20011027042446.BCLP19401.tomts15-srv.bellnexxia.net@duron> <5.1.0.14.2.20011027093029.00a6d830@sokieserv.dhs.org> Message-ID: <002601c15f0b$a31ab500$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> I've got one similar to that, though I'm not anxious to part with it. I'd recommend you post a WTB: in misc.forsale.computers.pc-specific.motherboards and see what you get in the way of offers. I've had to do this from time to time in order to capitalize on my very reliable VLB adapters, not just for SCSI, but for video and EIDE as well. Dick ----- Original Message ----- From: "John Boffemmyer IV" To: Sent: Saturday, October 27, 2001 7:51 AM Subject: Re: VLB SCSI? > Ok, i know i see flames coming on this one but i have to ask, hell, it's > for my mother. > Does anyone have a spare AT pentium board with docs? Hers was for a > 386/486/P90 when the P90's were new and it died the horrible death of blown > circuits. She really loved the machine and i'm looking for a way to give it > back to her working once again. No Sridhar, put the hammer down, hehe. > Anyone have any ideas, it had 2 VESA Local Bus slots, 3 ISA and 2 PCI? I'm > willing to pay reasonably for it, even more if it actually has a chip on > it. I have an original Zoom 14.4 VFX14.4V Serial modem with working power > block and DB25M/F Serial cable (components dated 1991 and 1993 - probably > cuz this is the voice/fax model). Was the like the one used in that stupid > movie "Hackers" and is only missing the black semi-see-through faceplate. > I'd toss that up for grabs with money for anyone who can help me out. And > yes, still working on figuring out all of the damned SOL stuff. Chandra, if > Newburgh (45 mins from Danbury) isn't too far from Boston, let me know, the > SOL's still here. > -John > > > At 03:27 AM 10/27/01, you wrote: > >I saw a '386 motherboard with VLB slots on Tuesday, but didn't bite. It > >took me > >WAY too long to give away all my old '386's, and the only one I kept was one > >that uses a '287 coprocessor, just for interest. > > > >more below ... > > > >Dick > > > >----- Original Message ----- > >From: > >To: > >Sent: Friday, October 26, 2001 6:34 PM > >Subject: Re: VLB SCSI? > > > > > > > > Date: 26 Oct 2001 22:36:6 +0100 > > > > From: "Iggy Drougge" > > > > Subject: Re: VLB SCSI? > > > > To: "Chad Fernandez" > > > > Reply-to: classiccmp@classiccmp.org > > > > > > > Chad Fernandez skrev: > > > > > > > > >I would consider VLB to be classic, or at least "legacy". I guess it > > > > >depends on the definition. I don't think any VLB cards have been > > > > >shipped for quite some time. They were mainly a 486 class bus. Did any > > > > >Pentium or 386 class motherboards come with VLB slots? > > > > > > > > I think I've got a Pentium VLB mobo laying about in the public spaces > >here... > > > > > > Based on OPTI chipset and very poor quality, works w/ 1 72pin simm > > > but severely penalizes performance. Pair up of memory simms and > > > performance improves but not as fast as true pentium chipsets. > > > Some of them can be set up either 486 or pentium. > > > > >If you're going to use it as a server, e.g. under Netware, you don't need > >a hot > >processor. The disk I/O proceeds via DMA at the rate at which the drives can > >go, and the network I/O does too. The CPU is idle much of the time, since it > >really only manages the transfers and handles directories. With one or two > >people, 4 at the most, even a '386SX-16 would be plenty. > > > > > > > While I haven't seen any 386 VLB boards, I've got an AST 386 where > > the CPU > > > > (AMD surface-mount clone) is fit on a daughter card which plugs into > > a VLB > > > > slot, though it's far away from the ISA slots. > > > > > > AST uses still-born CUPID slot. Usually grouped of 3 slots. I have > > > seen 386dx, 486 CPUID cards but they don't exhange easily on > > > different AST CUPID motherboard. I know because I have done that > > > before. AST did make pentium CPUID cards also. > > > > > > > Another odd PC mobo I've got is a 486 board with ISA, possible VLB as > > well, > > > > and a DX-50 Overdrive processor. Well, that's not so strange, but in the > > > > middle of the board, there is a DIN connector, like a VME or Nubus > >connector. > > > > What could that be? > > > > > > Sounds like AMI board for 486 or cache card upgrade for that DIN > > > connector. I had this one before (386dx 25 version (baby AT w/ > > > bit of left edge bit wider than rear half. That also has this DIN > > > style connector for 486 upgrade). Very nice! I think that model I > > > had was type 19 or 39 (386-486). Would like to find one again. > > > > > > The bizarre motherboard I can think of using 386sx style CPU based on > > > IBM 486SLC2 50 w/ 2 VLB slots and 64K cache room for extra 64K for > > > 128K total. It does work but performance stank due to 32 bits vlb > > > crimped down to 16 then back up 32 and vice vesa. A vendor made them > > > for IBM and IBM used them in their "early clones" machine. Took me > > > long time to find the jumper info. Ugh. > > > > > > VLB was originally designed for 486 but also works w/ 386dx cpus > > > based on OPTI. I had one but dumped it because the designer of it > > > wasn't doing good job of it w/ certain cards espcially ATI Ultra in > > > 16bit bios mode is dead. In 8 bit mode works but very slow. > > > > > > > -- > > > > En ligne avec Thor 2.6a. > > > > > > Cheers, > > > > > > Wizard > > > > > > > > ---------------------------------------- > Founder, Lead Writer, Tech Analyst > and Web Designer Boff-Net Technologies > http://boff-net.dhs.org/index.html > --------------------------------------- > > From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Sat Oct 27 12:28:18 2001 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (ajp166) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:05 2005 Subject: value of classic DEC machines? Message-ID: <00c901c15f0d$327c6030$39f09a8d@ajp166> -----Original Message----- From: John Allain To: One Without Reason > List me as one home-to-be for a working '11 system. > Anybody know if an 11/70 can be fit into a single rack? Yes but... You will be limited in options and cooling will likely require no side pannels or rear door. Allison From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Sat Oct 27 12:35:50 2001 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (ajp166) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:05 2005 Subject: RD54 and RT-11 5.4D Message-ID: <012701c15f0f$521635e0$39f09a8d@ajp166> From: Eric Dittman >I recently swapped the MV II CPU and memory in my BA23 with a >PDP-11/73 CPU and memory. I booted RT-11 V5.4D and attempted >to init the RD54, which failed: > >.init /segment:5 du0: >DU0:/Initialize; Are you sure? Y >?DUP-F-Directory output error DU0: >The drive was working just fine as a ODS-2 volume. I don't have >to low-level format, do I? It it was working before all you need to do is INIT the disk to establish an RT file system. The problem is RT11 doesnt like 160mb as it wants not more than 32mb per logical or physical drive. Me I keep a bunch of quantum D540s (31mb) for that use. Allison From jhfine at idirect.com Sat Oct 27 13:03:42 2001 From: jhfine at idirect.com (Jerome Fine) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:05 2005 Subject: RD54 and RT-11 5.4D References: <200110270430.f9R4Ulc02094@narnia.int.dittman.net> Message-ID: <3BDAF6FE.BB2310CF@idirect.com> >Eric Dittman wrote: > I recently swapped the MV II CPU and memory in my BA23 with a > PDP-11/73 CPU and memory. I booted RT-11 V5.4D and attempted > to init the RD54, which failed: > .init /segment:5 du0: > DU0:/Initialize; Are you sure? Y > ?DUP-F-Directory output error DU0: > The drive was working just fine as a ODS-2 volume. I don't have > to low-level format, do I? > Eric Dittman > dittman@dittman.net > Check out the DEC Enthusiasts Club at http://www.dittman.net/ Jerome Fine replies: Do you use RT-11 very much? Which monitor and what programs do you run? Also, how did you boot RT-11? Is it possible that the WRITE PROTECT button on the front panel is pressed? You can determine that by sending the command: DUMP/TERM DU0: If the DUMP works, then you are at least able to read the drive. In addition, also try the command: SHOW DEV:DU which will also show the map between the logical MSCP units and the physical hardware. Perhaps the ODS-2 mapping was different. I presume you are using an RQDX3 (M7555) and DS3 is used on the drive. Also, which monitor are you using? A DEC distributed monitor will not have any strange aspects, but a SYSGEN might. RT11SJ and RT11FB use DU.SYS while RT11XM uses DUX.SYS as the device driver. And check the cables on the drive a second time. Finally, does the RX50 work? If not, begin to suspect hardware problems? Sincerely yours, Jerome Fine From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat Oct 27 13:22:20 2001 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:05 2005 Subject: Genrad Futuredata info In-Reply-To: <3BDA06C9.FB873699@monumental.com> from "Craig Landrum" at Oct 26, 1 08:59:00 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 2998 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20011027/95c20a96/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat Oct 27 13:29:41 2001 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:05 2005 Subject: value of classic DEC machines? In-Reply-To: <000b01c15ef9$754972e0$8a0101ac@ibm23xhr06> from "John Allain" at Oct 27, 1 11:10:03 am Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1004 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20011027/7c3fac09/attachment.ksh From fultoncmf at starband.net Sat Oct 27 13:37:46 2001 From: fultoncmf at starband.net (Carl M Fulton) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:05 2005 Subject: Fw: BA350 Message-ID: <001201c15f16$7be66320$0700a8c0@bbs> I have a BA350 that has quit. According to the doc's I have a dead power supply. It would be a BA350-KF 150 watt power supply. Does anyone have any tips or tricks to these? If not any idea for finding a replacement? TIA Carl -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20011027/1d316c72/attachment.html From rhudson at cnonline.net Sat Oct 27 13:50:07 2001 From: rhudson at cnonline.net (Ron Hudson) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:05 2005 Subject: [OT] New toy... References: Message-ID: <3BDB01DF.90601@cnonline.net> For the rest of us, what kind of greek is that? : ^ ) John Lawson wrote: > > FB OM YR SIGS 599 RPT 599 QSL VIA BURO TNX ES 73 DE KB6SCO From cmcmanis at mcmanis.com Sat Oct 27 14:07:52 2001 From: cmcmanis at mcmanis.com (Chuck McManis) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:05 2005 Subject: Fw: BA350 In-Reply-To: <001201c15f16$7be66320$0700a8c0@bbs> Message-ID: <5.0.0.25.2.20011027115837.02377eb0@209.185.79.193> At 11:37 AM 10/27/01 -0700, Carl M Fulton wrote: >I have a BA350 that has quit. I have to assume you are talking about the DEC Storage Works shelf. Correct? >According to the doc's I have a dead power supply. The power supply lights are off, then you've got a dead supply :-) What in the documentation clued you in? >It would be a BA350-KF 150 watt power supply. That sounds about right for the SWorks shelf. Mine is marked BA35X-HA. >Does anyone have any tips or tricks to these? They are pretty standard switching supplies. If you understand the electronics behind switching power supplies (basically transistors and comparators :-) then start with the input side, then follow through to the primary switch, the feedback loop, and then the over voltage/current sensing circuits. >If not any idea for finding a replacement? Well there was a guy on Ebay selling a couple and got no bids as I recall, and I saw one listed on the Internet at Computer Clearing House for $28 so they are available. I'd be happy to trade you one for a 4.3G SBB drive. (disclosure: that's a trade in my favor if the list prices of PSUs and SBB drives on various sites are accurate, since the drives seem to go for about $100.) --Chuck From dittman at dittman.net Sat Oct 27 14:09:45 2001 From: dittman at dittman.net (Eric Dittman) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:05 2005 Subject: RD54 and RT-11 5.4D In-Reply-To: <012701c15f0f$521635e0$39f09a8d@ajp166> from "ajp166" at Oct 27, 2001 01:35:50 PM Message-ID: <200110271909.f9RJ9j313854@narnia.int.dittman.net> > >I recently swapped the MV II CPU and memory in my BA23 with a > >PDP-11/73 CPU and memory. I booted RT-11 V5.4D and attempted > >to init the RD54, which failed: > > > >.init /segment:5 du0: > >DU0:/Initialize; Are you sure? Y > >?DUP-F-Directory output error DU0: > >The drive was working just fine as a ODS-2 volume. I don't have > >to low-level format, do I? > > > It it was working before all you need to do is INIT the disk to establish > an RT file system. The problem is RT11 doesnt like 160mb as it wants > not more than 32mb per logical or physical drive. Doesn't the "/segment:5" split the disk up? -- Eric Dittman dittman@dittman.net Check out the DEC Enthusiasts Club at http://www.dittman.net/ From edick at idcomm.com Sat Oct 27 14:57:05 2001 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:05 2005 Subject: Falling off the internet References: Message-ID: <001001c15f21$8d99a220$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> Another thing you might consider, particularly as money is apparently no object, something my neighbor has in place, is a microwave link to (whatever ISP this is). He pays about $100 monthly but has, if I understand him correctly, essentially 250 Mbps (YES, thats Mbps) in either direction. I've no idea how one is supposed to exploit this much bandwidth, but I assume that's for bursts, and the aggregate rate is lower than that. I keep wanting to ask him more about this, but haven't. This includes all the basic services, i.e. mail, news, web access, and a block of static IP addresses. I've been waiting for him to get his system rework done, and he's been working on his automobile rework first ... since he's thinking the coming weather will make commuting to work on his motorcycle unpleasant. (I wonder why he believes that.) The thing to keep in mind is that the DSL via Qwest costs $20 monthly and certainly doesn't benefit MSN at all. If you combine that with the fact most ISP's charge on the order of $20 or so for DSL-connected ISP service, you get a case of Fat Tire every month instead of buying it for someone else. How do you connect to Earthlink & Covad? If you use the phone wiring then it's likely Qwest gets the lion's share of the cost anyway. I don't like 'em either, but it doesn't make sense to pay a monthly fee just to spite Qwest/MSN. Dick ----- Original Message ----- From: "Clint Wolff (VAX collector)" To: Sent: Saturday, October 27, 2001 7:44 AM Subject: Re: Falling off the internet > > Qwest will still provide the DSL connection to another ISP, but it costs > more for the same service I am getting now... The main reason for > cancelling my Qwest DSL is to say 'screw you and microsoft too'... The > secondary reason is to get a static IP without paying excessive fees > for a block of 8... > > Earthlink & Covad offer a static IP DSL service using PPPoet that I > should be able to make work under FreeBSD. 1.5MB down, 256? up, full > time connection, static IP, $64.95 a month. Seems like a smoking > deal to me... And QWest doesn't get a dime... And everyone I've > talked to about earthlink is reasonably happy... > > Clint > > On Fri, 26 Oct 2001, Richard Erlacher wrote: > > > Don't you have any choice about this? Does it mean that your DSL connection is > > no longer supported by Qwest? Since they are the only phone company, aren't > > they obliged to provide you with that service? In shameless self-interest, I'd > > recommend you consider id communications www.idcomm.com (303 790-4343) as an ISP > > rather than going with MSN. My sources tell me that MSN offers the worst > > service available in our geographic area, second only to AOL, and that Qwest is > > only a teensy bit better. Moreover, id offers full service, while AOL, MSN, and > > Qwest leave some services out or charge extra. > > > > It's about provisioning, doncha know! > > > > Tell 'e I sent you. They'll charge you extra, of course, but tell 'em anyway. > > > > Dick > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: "Clint Wolff (VAX collector)" > > To: > > Sent: Friday, October 26, 2001 9:16 AM > > Subject: Falling off the internet > > > > > > > > > > I just received notification from Qwest that I am being moved to > > > MSN, so I will be falling off the internet for a while until I > > > get a new DSL provider hooked up. > > > > > > If there is desire to reach me, my work email is: > > > > > > clintw@colorado.cirrus.com > > > > > > Y'all be good, and play nice together :) > > > > > > Clint > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > From mhstein at usa.net Sat Oct 27 15:00:21 2001 From: mhstein at usa.net (M H Stein) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:05 2005 Subject: SLOT 8 (was: ISA cards for free.. Message-ID: <01C15F00.81B44BC0@mse-d03> You're quite right, the 5161 Personal Computer Expansion Unit; just threw one out last week, as a matter of fact... mike ---------------Original Message-------------- Date: Fri, 26 Oct 2001 23:01:52 +0200 (CEST) From: Kees Stravers Subject: Re: SLOT 8 (was: ISA cards for free.. At 09:29 26-10-01 -0700, you wrote: >I have no idea why IBM did that. Perhaps intending it for some >"special" card that would need it, such as a coprocessor? AFAIK slot 8 in the XT was meant for a bus extender card. There was available a box which looked just like a XT but only had a psu and a passive motherboard inside. You put a bus ext card in that box and in the XT, and you could add seven more cards to the system. Kees. - -- kees.stravers@iae.nl - Geldrop, The Netherlands http://home.iae.nl/users/pb0aia/ From vance at ikickass.org Sat Oct 27 15:17:37 2001 From: vance at ikickass.org (One Without Reason) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:05 2005 Subject: Falling off the internet In-Reply-To: Message-ID: My internet provider doesn't charge for IP blocks. It might behoove you to see whether you can get their service in your area. http://www.cloud9.net/ Peace... Sridhar On Sat, 27 Oct 2001, Clint Wolff (VAX collector) wrote: > > Qwest will still provide the DSL connection to another ISP, but it costs > more for the same service I am getting now... The main reason for > cancelling my Qwest DSL is to say 'screw you and microsoft too'... The > secondary reason is to get a static IP without paying excessive fees > for a block of 8... > > Earthlink & Covad offer a static IP DSL service using PPPoet that I > should be able to make work under FreeBSD. 1.5MB down, 256? up, full > time connection, static IP, $64.95 a month. Seems like a smoking > deal to me... And QWest doesn't get a dime... And everyone I've > talked to about earthlink is reasonablly happy... > > Clint > > On Fri, 26 Oct 2001, Richard Erlacher wrote: > > > Don't you have any choice about this? Does it mean that your DSL connection is > > no longer supported by Qwest? Since they are the only phone company, aren't > > they obliged to provide you with that service? In shameless self-interest, I'd > > recommend you consider id communications www.idcomm.com (303 790-4343) as an ISP > > rather than going with MSN. My sources tell me that MSN offers the worst > > service available in our geographic area, second only to AOL, and that Qwest is > > only a teensy bit better. Moreover, id offers full service, while AOL, MSN, and > > Qwest leave some services out or charge extra. > > > > It's about provisioning, doncha know! > > > > Tell 'e I sent you. They'll charge you extra, of course, but tell 'em anyway. > > > > Dick > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: "Clint Wolff (VAX collector)" > > To: > > Sent: Friday, October 26, 2001 9:16 AM > > Subject: Falling off the internet > > > > > > > > > > I just received notification from Qwest that I am being moved to > > > MSN, so I will be falling off the internet for a while until I > > > get a new DSL provider hooked up. > > > > > > If there is desire to reach me, my work email is: > > > > > > clintw@colorado.cirrus.com > > > > > > Y'all be good, and play nice together :) > > > > > > Clint > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > From gwynp at artware.qc.ca Sat Oct 27 15:19:32 2001 From: gwynp at artware.qc.ca (gwynp@artware.qc.ca) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:05 2005 Subject: VLB SCSI? In-Reply-To: <001001c15eb7$e9030580$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> Message-ID: On 27-Oct-2001 Richard Erlacher wrote: > The combination of VLB and PCI apparently is the only way you can use > fast ethernet together with solid, reliable, proven SCSI. ISA doesn't > support fast ethernet, and from what I've seen, neither does VLB, > though those 2842's are hard to beat. The 2940's surely don't do the > job. I've still got about 75 of them out there that I visit from time > to time, and their owners are, in nearly all cases loath to part with > them. They give little or no trouble, all but half a dozen or so are > running Win95 or 98 with few complaints. That one particular board > seems to have had the formula. I've been using Adaptec PCI SCSI boards for several years now w/o a hitch... # lspci | grep SCSI 00:0d.0 SCSI storage controller: Adaptec AHA-2940U2/W Anyway, I was digging around for a VGA card that this Micron motherboard won't reject and found the old ISA/VLB/PCI motherboard. It was a PCI54PV. Finding it brings back all kinds of memories, mostly of the pain of using it. It taught me to never allow a computer store choose your motherboard. -Philip From gwynp at artware.qc.ca Sat Oct 27 15:26:41 2001 From: gwynp at artware.qc.ca (gwynp@artware.qc.ca) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:05 2005 Subject: VLB SCSI? In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20011027093029.00a6d830@sokieserv.dhs.org> Message-ID: On 27-Oct-2001 John Boffemmyer IV wrote: > Ok, i know i see flames coming on this one but i have to ask, hell, it's > for my mother. > Does anyone have a spare AT pentium board with docs? Hers was for a > 386/486/P90 when the P90's were new and it died the horrible death of > blown circuits. She really loved the machine and i'm looking for a way > to give it back to her working once again. Well, I have a PCI54PV Baby AT motherboard here, free for shipping from southern Qu?bec. 5 ISA, 2 VLB, 4 PCI. 4 x 72pin SIMMs Still have the manual after 6 years. Will only take 100Mhz pentium max. Does it work? Dunno. It did working when removed from service a few years back. I don't have a compatible CPU to test it with though :(. -Philip From emu at ecubics.com Sat Oct 27 16:12:51 2001 From: emu at ecubics.com (emanuel stiebler) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:05 2005 Subject: value of classic DEC machines? References: <005901c15e9e$0d0bb7c0$3a92a8c0@MAGGIE> Message-ID: <3BDB2353.672DAF77@ecubics.com> Heinz Wolter wrote: > > At least two commercial DEC restorers I know basically scrap > the 70's (since "no one wants them" - which I read "no one wants > to pay for them" ) or are forced to remove them along with more > interesting stuff as part of the deal (and scrap them later;) > Should someone start an 11/70 orphanage for all those > unwanted machines? If any 11/70 shows up in colorado, I'll be more than happy to pick it up ... cheers From DSEAGRAV at toad.xkl.com Sat Oct 27 16:24:57 2001 From: DSEAGRAV at toad.xkl.com (Daniel A. Seagraves) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:05 2005 Subject: [OT] New toy... In-Reply-To: <3BDB01DF.90601@cnonline.net> Message-ID: <13686510013.13.DSEAGRAV@toad.xkl.com> Translation: FB (I dunno) Old Man YouR SIGnal'S 5-9-9 (Readability 5, strength 9 on the S meter, good tone), RePeaT 5-9-9 QSL (Send a confirmation of contact) VIA BURO (I dunno again) ThaNX ES (I dunno again) 73 (Good day!) DE (From) KB6SCO. It's not greek, it's sorta the morse code equivalent to el33tsp33k, except that it's done to save time, not just to be lazy. ------- From edick at idcomm.com Sat Oct 27 16:13:21 2001 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:05 2005 Subject: VLB SCSI? References: Message-ID: <002b01c15f2e$4571ba20$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> I'm sure that ADAPTEC must currently produce SOME products that work. I gave up on them and their putative warranty some 5-6 years ago, before the current popularity of WIDE SCSI hardware came about, hence have WIDE hardware from SIIG, MYLEX, IBM, but not from ADAPTEC. I don't know what's making these 2940/3940 boards break, but I think there's some oddity in the way in which they handle the plug-n-play operation. Several of them aren't found by the system at all, i.e the ROM isn't even seen by the motherboard, and, in those cases, the hardware doesn't appear under the OS, either. Others find the ROM, but don't seem to operate the SCSI channel. Still another (several) work in the old slow motherboards but not in the ones that operate at a clock of 66 MHz or faster. By contrast, the very first ADAPTEC cards I got, e.g. AHA1542, AHA1520, AHA1522, AHA2842, etc, all seem to work just fine. Dick ----- Original Message ----- From: To: Sent: Saturday, October 27, 2001 2:19 PM Subject: Re: VLB SCSI? > > On 27-Oct-2001 Richard Erlacher wrote: > > The combination of VLB and PCI apparently is the only way you can use > > fast ethernet together with solid, reliable, proven SCSI. ISA doesn't > > support fast ethernet, and from what I've seen, neither does VLB, > > though those 2842's are hard to beat. The 2940's surely don't do the > > job. I've still got about 75 of them out there that I visit from time > > to time, and their owners are, in nearly all cases loath to part with > > them. They give little or no trouble, all but half a dozen or so are > > running Win95 or 98 with few complaints. That one particular board > > seems to have had the formula. > > I've been using Adaptec PCI SCSI boards for several years now w/o a > hitch... > > # lspci | grep SCSI > 00:0d.0 SCSI storage controller: Adaptec AHA-2940U2/W > > Anyway, I was digging around for a VGA card that this Micron motherboard > won't reject and found the old ISA/VLB/PCI motherboard. It was a PCI54PV. > Finding it brings back all kinds of memories, mostly of the pain of using > it. It taught me to never allow a computer store choose your motherboard. > > -Philip > > From rhblakeman at kih.net Sat Oct 27 16:31:55 2001 From: rhblakeman at kih.net (Russ Blakeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:05 2005 Subject: email/browser for DOS or C64/128? Message-ID: I know I've seen many things on this in th epast but wasn't paying attention. I have some free time now and want to do some tinkering. Are there browsers and email agents for the Commodore 64/128 series and DOS (2.11 through 6.22). I prefer a free or shareware one to be able to test it to see if it's a POS or not. I want to use the DOS version on a few platforms from an 8086/8088 to a 386. I have a 286 portable NEC that I'd like to try it out on first. Thanks in advance. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20011027/76a66301/attachment.html From optimus at canit.se Sat Oct 27 17:19:16 2001 From: optimus at canit.se (Iggy Drougge) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:05 2005 Subject: Genrad Futuredata info In-Reply-To: <3BDA06C9.FB873699@monumental.com> Message-ID: <708.700T800T13994713optimus@canit.se> Craig Landrum skrev: >Also, having just joined this list, it would appear to be >dominated by primarily big iron types instead of us IMSAI >and S100 junkies. Assuming there are a few out there and >you wish to correspond, here's what I have: While I agree that there are a lot of rack-mount random TTL junkies here, to some of us, S-100 and things like that are "big iron" as well. =) -- En ligne avec Thor 2.6a. If the designers of X-Windows built cars, there would be no fewer than five steering wheels hidden about the cockpit, none of which followed the same principles -- but you'd be able to shift gears with your car stereo. Useful feature, that. - Marus J. Ranum, Digital Equipment Corporation From mcguire at neurotica.com Sat Oct 27 16:50:07 2001 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:05 2005 Subject: [OT] New toy... In-Reply-To: Re: [OT] New toy... (Daniel A. Seagraves) References: <3BDB01DF.90601@cnonline.net> <13686510013.13.DSEAGRAV@toad.xkl.com> Message-ID: <15323.11279.790369.742170@phaduka.neurotica.com> On October 27, Daniel A. Seagraves wrote: > FB (I dunno) FB means "Fine Business". > VIA BURO (I dunno again) Send a QSL card via a QSL bureau...a sort of clearinghouse and routing organization for QSL cards. -Dvae -- Dave McGuire Laurel, MD From hsappleton at sprintmail.com Sat Oct 27 17:30:04 2001 From: hsappleton at sprintmail.com (Headley Sappleton) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:05 2005 Subject: please Id cards (2) Message-ID: <004301c15f36$ee0ebae0$9e7efea9@headleys> the first card has two mmj ports one coax port and one 15-pin AUI port. Has the inscription DIGITAL 25793 50-21879-01. This is obviously a network card module or something. I am more concerned with what DEC/DIGITAL computer this is used for. It has a vme/nubus kind of connector that plugs it into the motherboard of the DEC The second is a strange little card , that is obviously SUN Microsystems made. It has a SCSI port and a port that looks like a phone or 10BASET port with the inscription "TP" and a left/right arrow. This also has the following ID marks (5012981063784 -01 REV 50 LSI) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20011027/2ef683ac/attachment.html From pete at dunnington.u-net.com Sat Oct 27 17:38:23 2001 From: pete at dunnington.u-net.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:05 2005 Subject: [OT] New toy... In-Reply-To: Ron Hudson "Re: [OT] New toy..." (Oct 27, 11:50) References: <3BDB01DF.90601@cnonline.net> Message-ID: <10110272338.ZM23940@mindy.dunnington.u-net.com> On Oct 27, 11:50, Ron Hudson wrote: > For the rest of us, what kind of greek is that? : ^ ) > > > John Lawson wrote: > > > > > FB OM YR SIGS 599 RPT 599 QSL VIA BURO TNX ES 73 DE KB6SCO FB "fine business" OM old man YR your SIGS signal is 599 5 (readability) 9 (strength) 5 (tone, IIRC) RPT I repeat 599 5 x 5 x 9 QSL "can you acknowledge receipt" VIA via BURO QSL Bureaus are clearing houses for QSL cards, used to save postage costs when contacting people overseas etc (and useful for places with unreliable mail) TNX thanks ES and 73 best regards DE from KB6SCO (callsign) It's (mostly standard) radio ham CW (continuous wave) abbreviations, used to save keying too much morse. I'm sure several people on the list read that straight off without much thought, but I confess I had to think about some of them, it's been so long since I listened :-) -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager University of York From optimus at canit.se Sat Oct 27 18:07:30 2001 From: optimus at canit.se (Iggy Drougge) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:05 2005 Subject: VLB SCSI? In-Reply-To: <001001c15eb7$e9030580$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> Message-ID: <1193.701T1500T75305optimus@canit.se> Richard Erlacher skrev: >The combination of VLB and PCI apparently is the only way you can use fast >ethernet together with solid, reliable, proven SCSI. ISA doesn't support >fast ethernet, and from what I've seen, neither does VLB, though those 2842's >are hard to beat. The 2940's surely don't do the job. I've still got about >75 of them out there that I visit from time to time, and their owners are, in >nearly all cases loath to part with them. They give little or no trouble, >all but half a dozen or so are running Win95 or 98 with few complaints. That >one particular board seems to have had the formula. A friend of mine has got an ISA 100Mb ethernet card made by HP. I'm quite jealous. OTOH, I've got an Olicom 100Mb MCA ethernet card. ^___^ BTW, what about EISA? When the Pentium was really new, and PCI really wasn't on the market, or at least not a force to be reckoned with due to lack of hardware, all high-end Pentium machines had EISA, often in addition to PCI. And there certainly is a big amount of high-end SCSI cards for EISA, and they still fetch quite a good price. The number of 100Mb ethernet EISA cards is not negligible either. -- En ligne avec Thor 2.6a. From optimus at canit.se Sat Oct 27 18:17:17 2001 From: optimus at canit.se (Iggy Drougge) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:05 2005 Subject: VLB SCSI? In-Reply-To: <20011027042446.BCLP19401.tomts15-srv.bellnexxia.net@duron> Message-ID: <1219.701T850T174759optimus@canit.se> jpero skrev: >The bizarre motherboard I can think of using 386sx style CPU based on >IBM 486SLC2 50 w/ 2 VLB slots and 64K cache room for extra 64K for >128K total. It does work but performance stank due to 32 bits vlb >crimped down to 16 then back up 32 and vice vesa. A vendor made them >for IBM and IBM used them in their "early clones" machine. Took me >long time to find the jumper info. Ugh. I've got an IBM-made OEM machine (mine is branded by Lap Power) with a big daughter-board with seven or so ISA slots and three VLB slots. The mobo features a Blue Lightning processor and parity RAM. That's really the only reason I still keep it around (space constraints...). I used to have two, since I had rescued the chassis from one off the street without knowing that it was, then failing to find the processor =). It only served as a stool for a while, though, and was recently rationalised into the garbage. I wonder if I should set it up this evening just to see how it performs as a NetBSD machine. Oh, it had an all-plastic DLC-33 FPU from IIT, too. -- En ligne avec Thor 2.6a. Sagt, ist noch ein Land, au?er Deutschland, wo man die Nase eher r?mpfen lernt als putzen? --- Georg Christoph Lichtenberg From optimus at canit.se Sat Oct 27 18:29:11 2001 From: optimus at canit.se (Iggy Drougge) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:05 2005 Subject: VLB SCSI? In-Reply-To: <001601c15eb8$dd997660$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> Message-ID: <2106.701T550T293911optimus@canit.se> Richard Erlacher skrev: >I saw a '386 motherboard with VLB slots on Tuesday, but didn't bite. It took >me WAY too long to give away all my old '386's, and the only one I kept was >one that uses a '287 coprocessor, just for interest. 287? I didn't think that would be possible. Don't they use different length arithmetic, just to name one difference? A propos lower-end PCs, I've got a 286 laying around in the hallway. I was planning to recycle its case (Save for the bulky PSUs, old PC cases are generally much nicer than modern ones IMO. However, I thought I'd have some fun with it for a while, and make a contraption like Tony's PC, using the CPU socket upgrades I've scrounged. But if I put a 386 upgrade (I've got two, one Intel AboveBoard and another one from Nokia) into the 286 socket, how will the clock frequency be derived? Will it just take the motherboard frequency and run at 8-10-12-16 MHz, or will it multiply it? Or would it run asynchronously from the rest of the board (it's obvious that I have no idea what I'm talking about =) using its own frequency? BTW, in German, that's Taktfrequenz, IIRC, Erlacher. ;-) Then how would one solve the memory issue? Most 286 mobos will use DIPs for RAM, and I'm uncertain about their expansion abilities. I also have some awfully slow ISA RAM upgrades, but would the new CPU even support that? It would make a nice novelty item, at least. =) >If you're going to use it as a server, e.g. under Netware, you don't need a >hot processor. The disk I/O proceeds via DMA at the rate at which the drives >can go, and the network I/O does too. The CPU is idle much of the time, >since it really only manages the transfers and handles directories. With one >or two people, 4 at the most, even a '386SX-16 would be plenty. Not if you're going to put an NE2000 into it. =) Here's an interesting page which surveys how different ethernet apaptors will push different processors: http://john.ccac.rwth-aachen.de:8000/misc/mca_lanperform/ [snip] -- En ligne avec Thor 2.6a. The gates in my computer are AND, OR, and NOT, not Bill. --Tony Duell From vcf at vintage.org Sat Oct 27 17:58:28 2001 From: vcf at vintage.org (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:05 2005 Subject: Sharp PC-5000 for sale (early 1983 "laptop") update In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Someone's going to get a hell of a deal. Top offer so far is $77. I'm also throwing in the printer module with this: http://www.siconic.com/crap/sharp_t_printer.jpg This fits into the compartment on the top of the computer. > I have a new-in-box Sharp PC-5000 for sale at $350 or best offer by 6:00PM > PST October 31st. That is, $350 takes it now (going by first received > e-mail response); otherwise, it goes to the best offer under $350 that I > receive by 6PM-10/31. Buyer pays shipping from zip code 94588. I am > willing to ship internationally > > The Sharp PC-5000 is one of the very first clamshell style portables > (later known as laptops) circa 1983. According to our own Uncle Roger, it > even beat out the Gavilan. > > http://sinasohn.com/cgi-bin/clascomp/bldhtm.pl?computer=shp5000 > > This unit comes in the original box, with the original packing foam, is > basically new, has the manuals and battery and power supply (everything > that originally came with it), as well as a bubble memory carthridge. > > Photos: > > The Computer > http://www.siconic.com/crap/sharp5000.jpg > > The Box > http://www.siconic.com/crap/sharp_box.jpg > > The Manual > http://www.siconic.com/crap/Sharp_us_g.jpg > > The Bubble Memory Module > http://www.siconic.com/crap/Sharp_Bm_box.jpg > > Please reply directly to me at . If you have any > questions, ask away! Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org From edick at idcomm.com Sat Oct 27 18:19:50 2001 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:05 2005 Subject: VLB SCSI? References: <2106.701T550T293911optimus@canit.se> Message-ID: <000901c15f3d$e0e78e80$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> Once the PC came out, I stopped worrying about what would work with what unless I was hired to worry those matters. Nevertheless, I've got a '386 motherboard sitting downstairs somewhere that uses a '287 rather than the usual '387. I didn't buy it for that reason, but I did keep it for that reason. If I'd gotten enough documentation to explain what was going on, I'd have more info for you, but with the PC-"standard" falling apart with the release of the '386, because IBM no longer provided a firm ISA-equipped standard that everyone else could clone, there was nothing but chaos, and that's the way it's been ever since. The whole concept of "standard" was corrupted in the course of this evolutionary step, and it was a step into the quagmire we're all swimming in today. BTW, if that "bulky old PSU" still works, I'd happily relieve you of the fan and PSU board, and pay you for the freight, except for where you're located. I find them harder and harder to get, now that ATX PSU's are taking over, and grab them whenever I can get them for <$10. The fans don't last forever, and I remember once commenting that the fan costs $40, the whole PSU $30, the case wth PSU, $20, and, by rights, the entire PC should therefore cost $10. That's no longer the case, and, while the whole PC should probably still cost $10, the AT PSU is a rare bird except in surplus and therefore probably non-functional condition. The ISA Ram will run at the ISA rate, which is not terribly fast, but it's normally as fast as the CPU requires. Unfortunately, the ISA clock is a STANDARD, at 8 MHz, so, even in cases where the CPU runs at 10 or 12 MHz, (I've got one that runs at 24), the ISA is still limited by that 8 MHz clock. Dick ----- Original Message ----- From: "Iggy Drougge" To: "Richard Erlacher" Sent: Saturday, October 27, 2001 5:29 PM Subject: Re: VLB SCSI? > Richard Erlacher skrev: > > >I saw a '386 motherboard with VLB slots on Tuesday, but didn't bite. It took > >me WAY too long to give away all my old '386's, and the only one I kept was > >one that uses a '287 coprocessor, just for interest. > > 287? I didn't think that would be possible. Don't they use different length > arithmetic, just to name one difference? > > Apropos lower-end PCs, I've got a 286 laying around in the hallway. I was > planning to recycle its case (Save for the bulky PSUs, old PC cases are > generally much nicer than modern ones IMO. > However, I thought I'd have some fun with it for a while, and make a > contraption like Tony's PC, using the CPU socket upgrades I've scrounged. > But if I put a 386 upgrade (I've got two, one Intel AboveBoard and another one > from Nokia) into the 286 socket, how will the clock frequency be derived? Will > it just take the motherboard frequency and run at 8-10-12-16 MHz, or will it > multiply it? Or would it run asynchronously from the rest of the board (it's > obvious that I have no idea what I'm talking about =) using its own frequency? > BTW, in German, that's Taktfrequenz, IIRC, Erlacher. ;-) > > Then how would one solve the memory issue? Most 286 mobos will use DIPs for > RAM, and I'm uncertain about their expansion abilities. I also have some > awfully slow ISA RAM upgrades, but would the new CPU even support that? > > It would make a nice novelty item, at least. =) > > >If you're going to use it as a server, e.g. under Netware, you don't need a > >hot processor. The disk I/O proceeds via DMA at the rate at which the drives > >can go, and the network I/O does too. The CPU is idle much of the time, > >since it really only manages the transfers and handles directories. With one > >or two people, 4 at the most, even a '386SX-16 would be plenty. > > Not if you're going to put an NE2000 into it. =) > Here's an interesting page which surveys how different ethernet apaptors will > push different processors: > http://john.ccac.rwth-aachen.de:8000/misc/mca_lanperform/ > > [snip] > > -- > En ligne avec Thor 2.6a. > > The gates in my computer are AND, OR, and NOT, not Bill. > --Tony Duell > > > From edick at idcomm.com Sat Oct 27 18:28:13 2001 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:05 2005 Subject: VLB SCSI? References: <1193.701T1500T75305optimus@canit.se> Message-ID: <001101c15f3f$0c295be0$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> The fact the EISA motherboards were so expensive limited its market penetration. The VLB was cheaper and I think the connectors had a lot to do with that, since they were already in volume use on MicroChannel. VLB was also quite a bit better-designed and better suited to the then popular '486 market. One would have anticipated much better acceptance of the EISA, due to its inherent ability to capitalize on existing ISA products, but between cost of the motherboards hardware and the fancy connectors, they simply didn't hit the price range. EISA was, by the time the Pentiums came out, pretty much a dead duck. It hadn't caught on with the '386's and it didn't do better in the '486 market. PCI was clearly better by the time Pentiums became common. The only reason VLB lived as long as it did was that there were considerable numbers of boards out there that were still purported to be supported by the same folks that made the motherboards. They solved the marketing problem by putting the essential peripherals on the motherboard, which signalled the end of the VLB. Dick ----- Original Message ----- From: "Iggy Drougge" To: "Richard Erlacher" Sent: Sunday, October 28, 2001 12:00 AM Subject: Re: VLB SCSI? > Richard Erlacher skrev: > > >The combination of VLB and PCI apparently is the only way you can use fast > >ethernet together with solid, reliable, proven SCSI. ISA doesn't support > >fast ethernet, and from what I've seen, neither does VLB, though those 2842's > >are hard to beat. The 2940's surely don't do the job. I've still got about > >75 of them out there that I visit from time to time, and their owners are, in > >nearly all cases loath to part with them. They give little or no trouble, > >all but half a dozen or so are running Win95 or 98 with few complaints. That > >one particular board seems to have had the formula. > > A friend of mine has got an ISA 100Mb ethernet card made by HP. I'm quite > jealous. OTOH, I've got an Olicom 100Mb MCA ethernet card. ^___^ > > BTW, what about EISA? When the Pentium was really new, and PCI really wasn't > on the market, or at least not a force to be reckoned with due to lack of > hardware, all high-end Pentium machines had EISA, often in addition to PCI. > And there certainly is a big amount of high-end SCSI cards for EISA, and they > still fetch quite a good price. The number of 100Mb ethernet EISA cards is not > negligible either. > > -- > En ligne avec Thor 2.6a. > > > From mcguire at neurotica.com Sat Oct 27 19:18:46 2001 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:05 2005 Subject: please Id cards (2) In-Reply-To: please Id cards (2) (Headley Sappleton) References: <004301c15f36$ee0ebae0$9e7efea9@headleys> Message-ID: <15323.20198.721216.602336@phaduka.neurotica.com> On October 27, Headley Sappleton wrote: > the first card has two mmj ports one coax port and one 15-pin AUI port. Has the inscription DIGITAL 25793 50-21879-01. This is obviously a network card module or something. I am more concerned with what DEC/DIGITAL computer this is used for. It has a vme/nubus kind of connector that plugs it into the motherboard of the DEC No clue. > The second is a strange little card , that is obviously SUN Microsystems made. It has a SCSI port and a port that looks like a phone or 10BASET port with the inscription "TP" and a left/right arrow. This also has the following ID marks (5012981063784 -01 REV 50 LSI) This is a FSBE/S...fast SCSI with buffered 10Mbps ethernet. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Laurel, MD From dittman at dittman.net Sat Oct 27 19:22:18 2001 From: dittman at dittman.net (Eric Dittman) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:05 2005 Subject: RD54 and RT-11 5.4D In-Reply-To: <3BDAF6FE.BB2310CF@idirect.com> from "Jerome Fine" at Oct 27, 2001 02:03:42 PM Message-ID: <200110280022.f9S0MIe14271@narnia.int.dittman.net> > Do you use RT-11 very much? Which monitor and what programs > do you run? Also, how did you boot RT-11? I haven't used RT-11 for several years. I booted from an RX50 (and now I've tried an RX33) drive. > Is it possible that the WRITE PROTECT button on the front panel > is pressed? You can determine that by sending the command: > DUMP/TERM DU0: > If the DUMP works, then you are at least able to read the drive. The WRITE PROTECT is off, and I can read the drive with DUMP. I can even see the ODS-2 boot blocks. > In addition, also try the command: > SHOW DEV:DU > which will also show the map between the logical MSCP units and the > physical hardware. Perhaps the ODS-2 mapping was different. Here's the output: .show dev:du Device Status CSR Vector(s) ------ ------ --- --------- DU Resident 172150 154 DU0: is set UNIT=0, PART=0, PORT= 0 DU1: is set UNIT=1, PART=0, PORT= 0 DU2: is set UNIT=2, PART=0, PORT= 0 DU3: is set UNIT=3, PART=0, PORT= 0 DU4: is set UNIT=4, PART=0, PORT= 0 DU5: is set UNIT=5, PART=0, PORT= 0 DU6: is set UNIT=6, PART=0, PORT= 0 DU7: is set UNIT=7, PART=0, PORT= 0 > I presume you are using an RQDX3 (M7555) and DS3 is used on > the drive. Also, which monitor are you using? A DEC distributed > monitor will not have any strange aspects, but a SYSGEN might. > RT11SJ and RT11FB use DU.SYS while RT11XM uses DUX.SYS > as the device driver. And check the cables on the drive a second time. > Finally, does the RX50 work? If not, begin to suspect hardware > problems? The RX50 (and RX33, if I swap it for the RX50) works. I'm using the DEC distribution. There's been no SYSGEN at this point. -- Eric Dittman dittman@dittman.net Check out the DEC Enthusiasts Club at http://www.dittman.net/ From optimus at canit.se Sat Oct 27 20:18:42 2001 From: optimus at canit.se (Iggy Drougge) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:05 2005 Subject: email/browser for DOS or C64/128? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <1405.701T2100T1385729optimus@canit.se> Russ Blakeman skrev: >I know I've seen many things on this in th epast but wasn't paying >attention. I have some free time now and want to do some tinkering. Are >there browsers and email agents for the Commodore 64/128 series and DOS >(2.11 through 6.22). I prefer a free or shareware one to be able to test it >to see if it's a POS or not. I want to use the DOS version on a few >platforms from an 8086/8088 to a 386. I have a 286 portable NEC that I'd >like to try it out on first. > > [snip] Hopefully some programms which won't let you send HTML. As for MS-DOS and derivatives (I suppose that's the DOS you'd run), do a search for WATTCP. That's the stack I use on my DOS box (PS/2 model 70, to be replaced by a mod. 70 486). There's supposed to be a big WATTCP page in Norway. I seem to forget what the name of that OLR (off-line reader =) for C64/128 is called, but it seemed awfully capable. I also seem to forget whether it is developed by Cameron Kaiser. There are at least two browsers, too. Or three. I think Cameron is developing one, then there's one for SuperCPU users, and one developed by Fairlight. At least one goes by the name Wave. -- En ligne avec Thor 2.6a. You can't prove anything about a program written in C or FORTRAN. It's really just Peek and Poke with some syntactic sugar. Bill Joy From ghldbrd at ccp.com Sat Oct 27 19:43:07 2001 From: ghldbrd at ccp.com (Gary Hildebrand) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:06 2005 Subject: email/browser for DOS or C64/128? References: <1405.701T2100T1385729optimus@canit.se> Message-ID: <3BDB549B.B617BC59@ccp.com> I've heard of a c-128 on the net, but with what I have no idea. I know there is a demand out there for mailers for the 64, there is probably some sort of TSP/IP stack and associated software to go with it. I think everything is text based, no whizz bang graphics. Gary Hildebrand Iggy Drougge wrote: > > Russ Blakeman skrev: > > >I know I've seen many things on this in th epast but wasn't paying > >attention. I have some free time now and want to do some tinkering. Are > >there browsers and email agents for the Commodore 64/128 series and DOS > >(2.11 through 6.22). I prefer a free or shareware one to be able to test it > >to see if it's a POS or not. I want to use the DOS version on a few > >platforms from an 8086/8088 to a 386. I have a 286 portable NEC that I'd > >like to try it out on first. > > > > > > [snip] > > Hopefully some programms which won't let you send HTML. > > As for MS-DOS and derivatives (I suppose that's the DOS you'd run), do a > search for WATTCP. That's the stack I use on my DOS box (PS/2 model 70, to be > replaced by a mod. 70 486). There's supposed to be a big WATTCP page in > Norway. > I seem to forget what the name of that OLR (off-line reader =) for C64/128 is > called, but it seemed awfully capable. I also seem to forget whether it is > developed by Cameron Kaiser. There are at least two browsers, too. Or three. I > think Cameron is developing one, then there's one for SuperCPU users, and one > developed by Fairlight. At least one goes by the name Wave. > > -- > En ligne avec Thor 2.6a. > > You can't prove anything about a program written in C or FORTRAN. It's really > just Peek and Poke with some syntactic sugar. > Bill Joy From tony.eros at machm.org Sat Oct 27 20:01:02 2001 From: tony.eros at machm.org (Tony Eros) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:06 2005 Subject: System pickup help in Santa Fe, NM? In-Reply-To: <1405.701T2100T1385729optimus@canit.se> References: Message-ID: <5.0.2.1.0.20011027205538.0229c3f0@mail.njd.concentric.com> Is there anyone on the list in the Santa Fe, New Mexico area? I think I just bought my birthday and Christmas present for the next couple of years and could use some help with picking up and shipping the system. If you can help, please contact me off list. Thanks! -- Tony From optimus at canit.se Sat Oct 27 21:00:43 2001 From: optimus at canit.se (Iggy Drougge) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:06 2005 Subject: email/browser for DOS or C64/128? In-Reply-To: <3BDB549B.B617BC59@ccp.com> Message-ID: <753.701T2150T1806243optimus@canit.se> Gary Hildebrand skrev h?gst upp som en riktig datahacker: >I've heard of a c-128 on the net, but with what I have no idea. I know >there is a demand out there for mailers for the 64, there is probably >some sort of TSP/IP stack and associated software to go with it. There's been a TCP/IP stack for quite a while by Andr? Fachat, or if it was Dallman: http://www.heilbronn.netsurf.de/~dallmann/c64.html OTOH, that stack didn't have much application support. Telnet, possibly FTP or IRC as well. >I think everything is text based, no whizz bang graphics. At least one browser is graphical. With VIC graphics, though, it's not always that easy to recognise pictures. =) -- En ligne avec Thor 2.6a. Allt ?r under kontroll, och caps lock ?r bredvid. From SUPRDAVE at aol.com Sat Oct 27 20:42:04 2001 From: SUPRDAVE at aol.com (SUPRDAVE@aol.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:06 2005 Subject: email/browser for DOS or C64/128? Message-ID: <51.13501d13.290cbc6c@aol.com> In a message dated 10/27/01 8:37:10 PM Eastern Daylight Time, optimus@canit.se writes: << Russ Blakeman skrev: >I know I've seen many things on this in th epast but wasn't paying >attention. I have some free time now and want to do some tinkering. Are >there browsers and email agents for the Commodore 64/128 series and DOS >(2.11 through 6.22). I prefer a free or shareware one to be able to test it >to see if it's a POS or not. I want to use the DOS version on a few >platforms from an 8086/8088 to a 386. I have a 286 portable NEC that I'd >like to try it out on first. >> look for a program called nettamer. there were versions for xt and 386 class PCs. -- DB Young Team OS/2 old computers, hot rod pinto and more at: www.nothingtodo.org From gunther at aurora.regenstrief.org Sat Oct 27 20:43:25 2001 From: gunther at aurora.regenstrief.org (Gunther Schadow) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:06 2005 Subject: System pickup help in Santa Fe, NM? References: <5.0.2.1.0.20011027205538.0229c3f0@mail.njd.concentric.com> Message-ID: <3BDB62BD.7010300@aurora.regenstrief.org> Sorry, I can't help but I'm curious: what did you buy and what did you pay for it to pay it off over the next couple of years? -Gunther Tony Eros wrote: > Is there anyone on the list in the Santa Fe, New Mexico area? I think I > just bought my birthday and Christmas present for the next couple of > years and could use some help with picking up and shipping the system. > If you can help, please contact me off list. > > Thanks! > > -- Tony -- Gunther Schadow, M.D., Ph.D. gschadow@regenstrief.org Medical Information Scientist Regenstrief Institute for Health Care Adjunct Assistant Professor Indiana University School of Medicine tel:1(317)630-7960 http://aurora.regenstrief.org From gunther at aurora.regenstrief.org Sat Oct 27 20:53:24 2001 From: gunther at aurora.regenstrief.org (Gunther Schadow) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:06 2005 Subject: How to disassemble an HSC90? References: Message-ID: <3BDB6514.9020109@aurora.regenstrief.org> Paul Thompson wrote: > I tried to disassemble a HSC70 and ran into much the same problem. I did > take the backplane out thinking that would assist in removing the sides > and regretted it. It was definitely assembled in a manner that made all > the cabinet components basically inaccessible. > > I still have that backplane somewhere. Ugh, that sounds frightening indeed! Thank you for giving me that warning. I will put everything back together and will have to find some neighbors to help me lift the whole thing downstairs in one piece. Ugh. The thing I always wonder about in these cases is: what the heck was the rationale of building something that is impossible to disassemble without final destruction? I'm just glad that most of DEC's heavy metal is *not* that bad. regards -Gunther PS: is the top level of the HSC rack big enough to take some sort of PDP-11 or PDP-8? I didn't really want a PDP-11 until I figured I might actually have some room for it in that rack. -- Gunther Schadow, M.D., Ph.D. gschadow@regenstrief.org Medical Information Scientist Regenstrief Institute for Health Care Adjunct Assistant Professor Indiana University School of Medicine tel:1(317)630-7960 http://aurora.regenstrief.org From tony.eros at machm.org Sat Oct 27 21:34:14 2001 From: tony.eros at machm.org (Tony Eros) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:06 2005 Subject: System pickup help in Santa Fe, NM? In-Reply-To: <3BDB62BD.7010300@aurora.regenstrief.org> References: <5.0.2.1.0.20011027205538.0229c3f0@mail.njd.concentric.com> Message-ID: <5.0.2.1.0.20011027222559.02233c60@mail.njd.concentric.com> I was high bidder for a Xerox 8010 workstation (frequently referred to as the Xerox Star) on eBay. I hate eBay -- I'm a real fan of yard sales and this is the world's biggest. It's just too darned easy to spend _way_ too much money there, but then again, I got nobody to blame but myself, don't I :-) -- Tony At 08:43 PM 10/27/2001 -0500, you wrote: >Sorry, I can't help but I'm curious: what did you buy and what >did you pay for it to pay it off over the next couple of years? > >-Gunther > >Tony Eros wrote: > >>Is there anyone on the list in the Santa Fe, New Mexico area? I think I >>just bought my birthday and Christmas present for the next couple of >>years and could use some help with picking up and shipping the system. >>If you can help, please contact me off list. >>Thanks! >>-- Tony > > >-- >Gunther Schadow, M.D., Ph.D. gschadow@regenstrief.org >Medical Information Scientist Regenstrief Institute for Health Care >Adjunct Assistant Professor Indiana University School of Medicine >tel:1(317)630-7960 http://aurora.regenstrief.org > > > From geoffrob at stmarks.pp.catholic.edu.au Sat Oct 27 21:43:34 2001 From: geoffrob at stmarks.pp.catholic.edu.au (Geoff Roberts) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:06 2005 Subject: How to disassemble an HSC90? References: <3BDB6514.9020109@aurora.regenstrief.org> Message-ID: <016d01c15f5a$5fe6ef70$0300a8c0@geoff> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Gunther Schadow" To: ; "Paul Thompson" Sent: Sunday, October 28, 2001 12:23 PM Subject: Re: How to disassemble an HSC90? > Paul Thompson wrote: > > > > I tried to disassemble a HSC70 and ran into much the same problem. I did > > take the backplane out thinking that would assist in removing the sides > > and regretted it. It was definitely assembled in a manner that made all > > the cabinet components basically inaccessible. > > > > I still have that backplane somewhere. > > > Ugh, that sounds frightening indeed! Thank you for giving me that > warning. I will put everything back together and will have to > find some neighbors to help me lift the whole thing downstairs in > one piece. Ugh. The thing I always wonder about in these cases is: > what the heck was the rationale of building something that is > impossible to disassemble without final destruction? I'm just glad > that most of DEC's heavy metal is *not* that bad. ISTR having to get the side covers off a HSC50 some years back, which I think is the same cabinet as the 90 (certainly the same as the 70) and it wasn't real easy. I don't recall offhand how I did it now, I've never had any problems moving them so the necessity has not arisen. I'll have a look at one of the 50's I've got here and see if I can remember. Geoff Roberts Computer Systems Manager Saint Mark's College Port Pirie, South Australia geoffrob@stmarks.pp.catholic.edu.au > regards > -Gunther > > PS: is the top level of the HSC rack big enough to take some sort > of PDP-11 or PDP-8? I didn't really want a PDP-11 until I figured > I might actually have some room for it in that rack. > > -- > Gunther Schadow, M.D., Ph.D. gschadow@regenstrief.org > Medical Information Scientist Regenstrief Institute for Health Care > Adjunct Assistant Professor Indiana University School of Medicine > tel:1(317)630-7960 http://aurora.regenstrief.org > > > From bob at copenhagen.cuug.ab.ca Sat Oct 27 21:58:21 2001 From: bob at copenhagen.cuug.ab.ca (Bob Bramwell) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:06 2005 Subject: Tadpole Sparcbook 2: need bootable software Message-ID: <15323.29773.174927.543022@babbage> Greetings all, I wonder if anyone can help me out here. I have a Sparcbook 2 I am trying to resurrect. One of the disks crashed several years ago. I have finally got around to finding a replacement, but now my backup tapes are unreadable, and the CD-ROM I have (NCE 2.0 for Solaris 1.1.1 Version A.2.3) turns out not to be a bootable OS installation CD at all :-( So, I am in search of a CD-ROM of the appropriate kind, or downloadable images of the relevant "stuff" so that I can boot this sucker across a network. I would appreciate a direct reply to my e-mail address so I don't overlook such a reply in the mass of stuff on this mailing list :-) Thanks, Bob. -- Bob Bramwell Snail: 60 Baker Cr. NW | ProntoLogical Calgary, AB | NO LOGO +1 403/861-8827 T2L 1R4, Canada | From cmurillo at emtelsa.multi.net.co Sat Oct 27 21:16:37 2001 From: cmurillo at emtelsa.multi.net.co (Carlos Murillo) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:06 2005 Subject: VLB SCSI? Message-ID: <3.0.2.32.20011027221637.017b24dc@obregon.multi.net.co> At 12:17 AM 10/28/01 +0100, Iggy wrote: >I've got an IBM-made OEM machine (mine is branded by Lap Power) with a big >daughter-board with seven or so ISA slots and three VLB slots. The mobo >features a Blue Lightning processor and parity RAM. -snip- >Oh, it had an all-plastic DLC-33 FPU from IIT, too. I liked IIT FPU's. Long before MMX, they had things like 4x4 matrix multiply instructions (for implementation of 3D homogeneous transforms, rotation/scaling & such). And they were better at raw computations than the corresponding ix87 part. I remember hand-coding some robot control laws using those instructions. Even though the scaling row is usually left unused in robot apps (but it still is used for computations in the IIT FPU), thus producing some inefficiency, the built-in 4x4 was still much faster than a 3x4 matrix multiply algorithm. carlos. -------------------------------------------------------------- Carlos E. Murillo-Sanchez carlos_murillo@nospammers.ieee.org From cmurillo at emtelsa.multi.net.co Sat Oct 27 20:42:47 2001 From: cmurillo at emtelsa.multi.net.co (Carlos Murillo) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:06 2005 Subject: VLB SCSI? In-Reply-To: <2106.701T550T293911optimus@canit.se> References: <001601c15eb8$dd997660$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> Message-ID: <3.0.2.32.20011027214247.017b24dc@obregon.multi.net.co> At 12:29 AM 10/28/01 +0100, Iggy wrote: >Richard Erlacher skrev: > >>I saw a '386 motherboard with VLB slots on Tuesday, but didn't bite. It took >>me WAY too long to give away all my old '386's, and the only one I kept was >>one that uses a '287 coprocessor, just for interest. > >287? I didn't think that would be possible. Don't they use different length >arithmetic, just to name one difference? No; they both have IEEE operands. I believe that you could use 287 parts with 386-SX cpus, but not with normal 386's. carlos. -------------------------------------------------------------- Carlos E. Murillo-Sanchez carlos_murillo@nospammers.ieee.org From fernande at internet1.net Fri Oct 26 22:39:36 2001 From: fernande at internet1.net (Chad Fernandez) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:06 2005 Subject: VLB SCSI? References: <1193.701T1500T75305optimus@canit.se> <001101c15f3f$0c295be0$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> Message-ID: <3BDA2C78.24BA3851@internet1.net> Compaq made plenty of EISA based Pentium servers. Chad Fernandez Michigan, USA Richard Erlacher wrote: > EISA > was, by the time the Pentiums came out, pretty much a dead duck. From rhblakeman at kih.net Sat Oct 27 22:56:17 2001 From: rhblakeman at kih.net (Russ Blakeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:06 2005 Subject: email/browser for DOS or C64/128? In-Reply-To: <1405.701T2100T1385729optimus@canit.se> Message-ID: No HTML sent out here, may be inserted somewhere down the road after it leaves my machine as I have always had the Classic Comp list in plain text mode. Thanks for the hints by the way, to all of you that answered. -> -----Original Message----- -> From: owner-classiccmp@classiccmp.org -> [mailto:owner-classiccmp@classiccmp.org]On Behalf Of Iggy Drougge -> Sent: Saturday, October 27, 2001 8:19 PM -> To: Russ Blakeman -> Subject: Re: email/browser for DOS or C64/128? -> -> -> Russ Blakeman skrev: -> -> >I know I've seen many things on this in th epast but wasn't paying -> >attention. I have some free time now and want to do some tinkering. Are -> >there browsers and email agents for the Commodore 64/128 series and DOS -> >(2.11 through 6.22). I prefer a free or shareware one to be -> able to test it -> >to see if it's a POS or not. I want to use the DOS version on a few -> >platforms from an 8086/8088 to a 386. I have a 286 portable NEC that I'd -> >like to try it out on first. -> -> > -> > -> [snip] -> -> Hopefully some programms which won't let you send HTML. -> -> As for MS-DOS and derivatives (I suppose that's the DOS you'd run), do a -> search for WATTCP. That's the stack I use on my DOS box (PS/2 -> model 70, to be -> replaced by a mod. 70 486). There's supposed to be a big WATTCP page in -> Norway. -> I seem to forget what the name of that OLR (off-line reader =) -> for C64/128 is -> called, but it seemed awfully capable. I also seem to forget -> whether it is -> developed by Cameron Kaiser. There are at least two browsers, -> too. Or three. I -> think Cameron is developing one, then there's one for SuperCPU -> users, and one -> developed by Fairlight. At least one goes by the name Wave. -> -> -- -> En ligne avec Thor 2.6a. -> -> You can't prove anything about a program written in C or -> FORTRAN. It's really -> just Peek and Poke with some syntactic sugar. -> Bill Joy -> -> -> From jpero at sympatico.ca Sat Oct 27 19:08:45 2001 From: jpero at sympatico.ca (jpero@sympatico.ca) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:06 2005 Subject: VLB SCSI? In-Reply-To: <002001c15f0a$ffe69de0$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> Message-ID: <20011028035931.MJCH4752.tomts8-srv.bellnexxia.net@duron> > I'm not sure what you mean by slower. I found that no matter how fast the mfg > claims the CPU is running, it does DOS tasks about as fast as a 133 MHz Pentium, > and I also found that the difference in performance between these VIP boards at > 133 MHz (not for comparison, but just for reference) and the 150 MHz 6x86's that > I was using back in '92..'94, was not perceptible. The 6x86 boards were > equipped with ISA and PCI, but no VLB, BTW. Hello? Knock knock... There was pentium VLB w/ ISA, other pentium has ISA ONLY, and from what others have seen had or have all three (PCI, ISA and VLB) but keep in mind, VLB is strictly 486 signal and to some degree 386dx, pentium pinout isn't compatiable w/ it therefore has to go through chipsets to work properly. Many of these early rubbish pentium boards has these features and works w/ one 72 pins to keep cost down. Remember, at that time cost was expensive for a 1~8MB 72pin simm (93-96 era). (Feb 96, paid 700 CDN for pair of EDO 8MB simms) But these sane quality designers don't use these mish-mash that chinese cloners (5V pentium era) tend to do in that early times. Pentium w/ ISA and PCI, while 486 got VLB and ISA later on 486 late ones got PCI (better). Important thing, OPTI is ok but that's unknown chipset and most of cloners didn't have resources to optimize the performance and reliablity, compatiblity so that OPTI got black eyes, ditto to good chipsets by SiS (460, 461, 471, 496/497), even intel so on! > I suppose someone will eventually build a motherboard that runs fast enough so > that when the PCI peripheral interface fails it still saves time to power down > the system, swap the offending device, and restart, but that time isn't here > yet. Yes, already here now. Look to Serverworks stuff, PCI is already hot swappable and available w/ 66MHz and 64bit. Also microPCI is hot swappable as well, primarily used in racks and true server machines. > It's true that it's possible to build a faster interface on PCI than on VLB. > That doesn't mean that the makers of a given circuit did that, however. I doubt > that a motherboard designed with both VLB and PCI is necessarily slower than one > with PCI only. Good board makers can make without performance losses on both PCI and VLB on board and still give top performance w/ 486 type processors. We had Asus boards of those. > Dick Cheers, Wizard From optimus at canit.se Sat Oct 27 21:00:43 2001 From: optimus at canit.se (Iggy Drougge) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:06 2005 Subject: email/browser for DOS or C64/128? In-Reply-To: <3BDB549B.B617BC59@ccp.com> Message-ID: <753.701T2150T1806243optimus@canit.se> Gary Hildebrand skrev h?gst upp som en riktig datahacker: >I've heard of a c-128 on the net, but with what I have no idea. I know >there is a demand out there for mailers for the 64, there is probably >some sort of TSP/IP stack and associated software to go with it. There's been a TCP/IP stack for quite a while by Andr? Fachat, or if it was Dallman: http://www.heilbronn.netsurf.de/~dallmann/c64.html OTOH, that stack didn't have much application support. Telnet, possibly FTP or IRC as well. >I think everything is text based, no whizz bang graphics. At least one browser is graphical. With VIC graphics, though, it's not always that easy to recognise pictures. =) -- En ligne avec Thor 2.6a. Allt ?r under kontroll, och caps lock ?r bredvid. From edick at idcomm.com Sat Oct 27 23:42:23 2001 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:06 2005 Subject: VLB SCSI? References: <001601c15eb8$dd997660$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> <3.0.2.32.20011027214247.017b24dc@obregon.multi.net.co> Message-ID: <000b01c15f6a$f0064780$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> Well, these guys figured out how to do it with a standard '386. I've never used a '386sx for anything beyond just a look, and this was definitely not an SX. I used it for about a year, simply because it would run a "cracked" copy of a 3D Cad program before the AUTOCAD versions that supporte 3D became conveniently available. The early AutoCAD didn't require a math coprocessor, but CADKEY did. A friend had written a program to circumvent the security module that came with the program, and I was testing his work. AFAIK, the program he wrote worked perfectly and every time. It took about two minutes to find all the modules that had to be "fixed" from a completely new batch of diskettes on which this software was distributed, and made it entirely unnecessary to have the "simm" that plugged in to the parallel/serial port. Unfortunately, he never did that with protected WINDOWS software, so I don't use that stuff. It didn't matter much, but we liked cracking that stuff just to show how transparent the security really was. Once we'd verified that the crack was complete, we set the software aside. No point stealing someone else's work. but fun fiddling a way around the "protection." I used to take hours doing this stuff manually so I could keep my computer on the desktop. There were so many security modules in series that, if they worked at all, I had to have a keyboard drawer, since 7 or 8 modules amounted to a foot or more at the rear of the computer. Dick ----- Original Message ----- From: "Carlos Murillo" To: Sent: Saturday, October 27, 2001 7:42 PM Subject: Re: VLB SCSI? > At 12:29 AM 10/28/01 +0100, Iggy wrote: > >Richard Erlacher skrev: > > > >>I saw a '386 motherboard with VLB slots on Tuesday, but didn't bite. It > took > >>me WAY too long to give away all my old '386's, and the only one I kept was > >>one that uses a '287 coprocessor, just for interest. > > > >287? I didn't think that would be possible. Don't they use different length > >arithmetic, just to name one difference? > > No; they both have IEEE operands. I believe that you could use > 287 parts with 386-SX cpus, but not with normal 386's. > > carlos. > > -------------------------------------------------------------- > Carlos E. Murillo-Sanchez carlos_murillo@nospammers.ieee.org > > From edick at idcomm.com Sat Oct 27 23:43:34 2001 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:06 2005 Subject: VLB SCSI? References: <3.0.2.32.20011027221637.017b24dc@obregon.multi.net.co> Message-ID: <001101c15f6b$1a104da0$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> I have the IIT FPU on my 24 MHz '286 board. It really does a good job, obsolete though it is. It runs at full speed in that application. Dick ----- Original Message ----- From: "Carlos Murillo" To: Sent: Saturday, October 27, 2001 8:16 PM Subject: Re: VLB SCSI? > At 12:17 AM 10/28/01 +0100, Iggy wrote: > >I've got an IBM-made OEM machine (mine is branded by Lap Power) with a big > >daughter-board with seven or so ISA slots and three VLB slots. The mobo > >features a Blue Lightning processor and parity RAM. > -snip- > >Oh, it had an all-plastic DLC-33 FPU from IIT, too. > > I liked IIT FPU's. Long before MMX, they had things like 4x4 > matrix multiply instructions (for implementation of 3D homogeneous > transforms, rotation/scaling & such). And they were better at > raw computations than the corresponding ix87 part. I remember > hand-coding some robot control laws using those instructions. > Even though the scaling row is usually left unused in robot apps > (but it still is used for computations in the IIT FPU), thus > producing some inefficiency, the built-in 4x4 was still much faster than > a 3x4 matrix multiply algorithm. > > carlos. > > -------------------------------------------------------------- > Carlos E. Murillo-Sanchez carlos_murillo@nospammers.ieee.org > > From jpero at sympatico.ca Sat Oct 27 19:52:03 2001 From: jpero at sympatico.ca (jpero@sympatico.ca) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:06 2005 Subject: VLB SCSI? In-Reply-To: <000901c15f3d$e0e78e80$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> Message-ID: <20011028044243.BZBD12483.tomts13-srv.bellnexxia.net@duron> > I was hired to worry those matters. Nevertheless, I've got a '386 motherboard > sitting downstairs somewhere that uses a '287 rather than the usual '387. I Confirmed, I had one and soon became flaky. Was 386DX 25 baby AT w/ socket for 387 or 287, based on 386dx C&T (yeech!) chipset, no support for cache, black and white AMI screen. Yes it existed. > didn't buy it for that reason, but I did keep it for that reason. If I'd gotten > enough documentation to explain what was going on, I'd have more info for you, > but with the PC-"standard" falling apart with the release of the '386, because > IBM no longer provided a firm ISA-equipped standard that everyone else could > clone, there was nothing but chaos, and that's the way it's been ever since. > The whole concept of "standard" was corrupted in the course of this evolutionary > step, and it was a step into the quagmire we're all swimming in today. Bit better now for last few years. 91-95 was the worst years. > BTW, if that "bulky old PSU" still works, I'd happily relieve you of the fan and > PSU board, and pay you for the freight, except for where you're located. I find Exactly, I did this to extract decent fans from them. Few days ago swapped ATX windy noises has that noise killer sticker yeah right! For quieter fan. > The ISA Ram will run at the ISA rate, which is not terribly fast, but it's > normally as fast as the CPU requires. Unfortunately, the ISA clock is a > STANDARD, at 8 MHz, so, even in cases where the CPU runs at 10 or 12 MHz, (I've > got one that runs at 24), the ISA is still limited by that 8 MHz clock. Not usually, junky clones had odd ISA clocks and some were too high. > Dick Wizard From edick at idcomm.com Sat Oct 27 23:48:38 2001 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:06 2005 Subject: VLB SCSI? References: <1193.701T1500T75305optimus@canit.se> <001101c15f3f$0c295be0$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> <3BDA2C78.24BA3851@internet1.net> Message-ID: <001701c15f6b$cfa019c0$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> Yes, they were among the first to use the Pentium. Of course, they're gone now, just like their predecessor in trying to make expensive PC hardware, namely DEC. It's a common problem competing with your own cheaper products. Apple learned that lesson with the Apple ///. It wasn't hard to make the ][+ do what the /// did, for much less money, so folks did that. Likewise with the big EISA servers. Folks figured out that one didn't need a fast server for a small LAN, and only maybe with a big one, so they built their servers on $300 boxes instead of $3000 ones and put the fast machines in front of the folks who really needed the speed. Dick ----- Original Message ----- From: "Chad Fernandez" To: Sent: Friday, October 26, 2001 9:39 PM Subject: Re: VLB SCSI? > Compaq made plenty of EISA based Pentium servers. > > Chad Fernandez > Michigan, USA > > Richard Erlacher wrote: > > EISA > > was, by the time the Pentiums came out, pretty much a dead duck. > > From edick at idcomm.com Sun Oct 28 00:08:00 2001 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:06 2005 Subject: VLB SCSI? References: <20011028035931.MJCH4752.tomts8-srv.bellnexxia.net@duron> Message-ID: <002101c15f6e$84552b60$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> OPTI was the mfg of choice for the 5x86 and 6x86, and they made decent enough chipsets for both the Socket3 and Socket5 markets. UMC made decent enough chipsets supporting the 5x86 as well. You're right, of course, in that you say the VLB is a '486-era concept, though it was applied to late '386's. I've found that the boards, be they socket3, or socket5, that have VLB on them whether they have PCI as well or not, have all been MUCH more dependable than the PCI-bearing socket7 and later boards with which I've had experience. Now, just because you didn't like the 10 or 20 boards that you had doesn't mean that they were all rubbish. There were so many one couldn't possibly try them all, even with Bill Gates' money. I don't see the point in your comment regarding the 6x86 boards. I clearly stated that the 6x86's had no VLB, and that was the point of my remark, since the 5x86's had both PCI and VLB and yet didn't suffer much from the presence of both interfaces. They were always quite impressive for their cost. I recall that the last time I bought a dozen or so, I paid under $100 for VIP boards with all the common peripherals on the motherboard plus one VLB slot, 3 ISA's and 3 PCI. These had a 5x86/133 with 256KB cache and 16MB of EDO RAM. Of that last batch, all are still in daily service. I subsequently bought other 5x86 mobo's without the VLB slots but with 4 PCI, and found them not one bit faster than the boards with VLB on them, though of the 6 or 8 that I bought back then, only one is still functional. Though my own sample isn't sufficiently large to verify a trend, but with the evolution of the PCI, the failure rate I observe among motherboards is about 10-20x what it was back in the VLB and earlier ISA-only days. I've got dozens of dead PCI mothers, yet almost all the VLB and earlier mothers I've owned or used are still functional, though many have had the cache srams scavenged for embedded applications. Sooner or later they'll build motherboards with the entire virtual address space filled with nonvolatile RAM, with built in fiber or 10GB ethernet, and with all the other stuff we need built on as well, and then the circuit can be designed optimally for the, by then 10^100 Hz CPU's. In the meantime, we're at the mercy of the geniuses who design the bus interfaces, particularly the software. Dick ----- Original Message ----- From: To: Sent: Saturday, October 27, 2001 6:08 PM Subject: Re: VLB SCSI? > > > I'm not sure what you mean by slower. I found that no matter how fast the mfg > > claims the CPU is running, it does DOS tasks about as fast as a 133 MHz Pentium, > > and I also found that the difference in performance between these VIP boards at > > 133 MHz (not for comparison, but just for reference) and the 150 MHz 6x86's that > > I was using back in '92..'94, was not perceptible. The 6x86 boards were > > equipped with ISA and PCI, but no VLB, BTW. > > Hello? Knock knock... > > There was pentium VLB w/ ISA, other pentium has ISA ONLY, and from > what others have seen had or have all three (PCI, ISA and VLB) but > keep in mind, VLB is strictly 486 signal and to some degree 386dx, > pentium pinout isn't compatiable w/ it therefore has to go through > chipsets to work properly. Many of these early rubbish pentium > boards has these features and works w/ one 72 pins to keep cost down. > Remember, at that time cost was expensive for a 1~8MB 72pin > simm (93-96 era). > > (Feb 96, paid 700 CDN for pair of EDO 8MB simms) > > But these sane quality designers don't use these mish-mash that > chinese cloners (5V pentium era) tend to do in that early times. > Pentium w/ ISA and PCI, while 486 got VLB and ISA later on 486 late > ones got PCI (better). > > Important thing, OPTI is ok but that's unknown chipset and most of > cloners didn't have resources to optimize the performance and > reliablity, compatiblity so that OPTI got black eyes, ditto to good > chipsets by SiS (460, 461, 471, 496/497), even intel so on! > > > I suppose someone will eventually build a motherboard that runs fast enough so > > that when the PCI peripheral interface fails it still saves time to power down > > the system, swap the offending device, and restart, but that time isn't here > > yet. > > Yes, already here now. Look to Serverworks stuff, PCI is already hot > swappable and available w/ 66MHz and 64bit. Also microPCI is hot > swappable as well, primarily used in racks and true server machines. > > > It's true that it's possible to build a faster interface on PCI than on VLB. > > That doesn't mean that the makers of a given circuit did that, however. I doubt > > that a motherboard designed with both VLB and PCI is necessarily slower than one > > with PCI only. > > Good board makers can make without performance losses on both PCI and > VLB on board and still give top performance w/ 486 type processors. > We had Asus boards of those. > > > Dick > > Cheers, > > Wizard > > From edick at idcomm.com Sun Oct 28 00:11:03 2001 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:06 2005 Subject: VLB SCSI? References: <20011028044243.BZBD12483.tomts13-srv.bellnexxia.net@duron> Message-ID: <002701c15f6e$f0dc5f60$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> ----- Original Message ----- From: To: Sent: Saturday, October 27, 2001 6:52 PM Subject: Re: VLB SCSI? > > The ISA Ram will run at the ISA rate, which is not terribly fast, but it's > > normally as fast as the CPU requires. Unfortunately, the ISA clock is a > > STANDARD, at 8 MHz, so, even in cases where the CPU runs at 10 or 12 MHz, (I've > > got one that runs at 24), the ISA is still limited by that 8 MHz clock. > > Not usually, junky clones had odd ISA clocks and some were too high. > Well, there is an IEEE standard that applies to ISA, and guess what it uses as the "standard" clock ... use something else, and you're on your own. > > > Dick > > Wizard > > From edick at idcomm.com Sun Oct 28 00:13:00 2001 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:06 2005 Subject: email/browser for DOS or C64/128? References: <753.701T2150T1806243optimus@canit.se> Message-ID: <002f01c15f6f$36900020$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> Which CPU does this use? The COMMODOREs of that era had both the Z80 and the 65xx, didn't they? Dick ----- Original Message ----- From: "Iggy Drougge" To: "Gary Hildebrand" Sent: Sunday, October 28, 2001 12:00 AM Subject: Re: email/browser for DOS or C64/128? > Gary Hildebrand skrev h?gst upp som en riktig datahacker: > > >I've heard of a c-128 on the net, but with what I have no idea. I know > >there is a demand out there for mailers for the 64, there is probably > >some sort of TSP/IP stack and associated software to go with it. > > There's been a TCP/IP stack for quite a while by Andr? Fachat, or if it was > Dallman: http://www.heilbronn.netsurf.de/~dallmann/c64.html > OTOH, that stack didn't have much application support. Telnet, possibly FTP or > IRC as well. > > >I think everything is text based, no whizz bang graphics. > > At least one browser is graphical. With VIC graphics, though, it's not always > that easy to recognise pictures. =) > > -- > En ligne avec Thor 2.6a. > > Allt ?r under kontroll, och caps lock ?r bredvid. > > > From spectre at stockholm.ptloma.edu Sun Oct 28 00:24:30 2001 From: spectre at stockholm.ptloma.edu (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:06 2005 Subject: email/browser for DOS or C64/128? In-Reply-To: <1405.701T2100T1385729optimus@canit.se> from Iggy Drougge at "Oct 28, 1 02:18:42 am" Message-ID: <200110280524.WAA10096@stockholm.ptloma.edu> > I seem to forget what the name of that OLR (off-line reader =) for C64/128 is > called, but it seemed awfully capable. I also seem to forget whether it is > developed by Cameron Kaiser. There are at least two browsers, too. Or three. I > think Cameron is developing one, then there's one for SuperCPU users, and one > developed by Fairlight. At least one goes by the name Wave. The Fairlight one is actually just an offline HTML reader. It does a good job, though. HyperLink 2.5 is the one I wrote. It requires a shell dialup with Perl, and strongly prefers an ACIA cartridge. It speaks a custom protocol to the server, which acts as a proxy for the C64. The proxy can also translate gopherspace sites as a general purpose Internet proxy; has support for images, so you can view .gif, .tif and .jpg files with appropriate server support; and there is rudimentary support for forms as well. The advantage of this is that a naked C64 with no upgrades can still run this (albeit slowly), but the dialup requirement may be too onerous. You can use a null modem connection to your Unix server, though, if you like. See http://www.armory.com/%7Espectre/cwi/hl/ The Wave is a true PPP implementation. Its web browser is simple but does a nice job on text rendering (it does not yet support images or forms). It also has Telnet support, and since it is a true TCP/IP implementation other protocols are possible. The downside is that it has sizeable software and hardware requirements (a SuperCPU-equipped C64/128 with at least 1MB SuperRAM and an ACIA cartridge, plus Wheels, a GEOS upgrade). See http://www.ia4u.net/%7Emaurice/ -- ----------------------------- personal page: http://www.armory.com/~spectre/ -- Cameron Kaiser, Point Loma Nazarene University * ckaiser@stockholm.ptloma.edu -- What use is magic if it can't save a unicorn? -- Beagle, "The Last Unicorn" From spectre at stockholm.ptloma.edu Sun Oct 28 00:39:17 2001 From: spectre at stockholm.ptloma.edu (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:06 2005 Subject: email/browser for DOS or C64/128? In-Reply-To: <002f01c15f6f$36900020$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> from Richard Erlacher at "Oct 27, 1 11:13:00 pm" Message-ID: <200110280539.WAA10314@stockholm.ptloma.edu> > Which CPU does this use? The COMMODOREs of that era had both the Z80 and the > 65xx, didn't they? The C128 has a Z80 and 8502 (6502 derivative) but they do not operate simultaneously. The Z80 in the C128 is virtually only used for CP/M; very little native mode software uses it. (Interestingly, it is the master processor on bootup -- see http://www.retrobits.com/ckb/secret/d128.html ). All other Commodore 8-bits are 6502-based only, although there is a Z80 cartridge for the C64 to allow it to run CP/M 2.2. -- ----------------------------- personal page: http://www.armory.com/~spectre/ -- Cameron Kaiser, Point Loma Nazarene University * ckaiser@stockholm.ptloma.edu -- Honk if you're illiterate! ------------------------------------------------- From acme_ent at bellsouth.net Sat Oct 27 23:18:43 2001 From: acme_ent at bellsouth.net (Glen Goodwin) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:06 2005 Subject: UTC Transformer type H-89 Message-ID: <20011028054507.IZHH1653.imf04bis.bellsouth.net@thegoodw> Ran across this on Ebay tonight: http://cgi.ebay.com/aw-cgi/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=1649083427 This transformer has a 115V primary, and several taps on the secondary ranging from 5 to 850 volts. What kind of device might require such a wide range of voltages? BTW (for those without 'net access) the device sold for USD103.50 and there were no details as to what this thing was used in. This leads me to believe that it's a high failure-rate component in a relatively expensive (and not uncommon) piece of gear. Any clues? Glen 0/0 From acme_ent at bellsouth.net Sat Oct 27 23:48:01 2001 From: acme_ent at bellsouth.net (Glen Goodwin) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:06 2005 Subject: Price guide for vintage computers Message-ID: <20011028054517.IZHY1653.imf04bis.bellsouth.net@thegoodw> > From: John Foust > And although eBay appears to be doing nothing with all that > pricing information of all their past auctions, you never know. > On the other hand, I bet that if you published a price guide > in any market and directly noted that you derived your price > info from eBay auctions, they'd smack you with legal paper > urging you to cease and desist from mining their property > without permission. Ebay says they are not the content provider, so they cannot claim that the item description and closing price are their property. Glen 0/0 From optimus at canit.se Sun Oct 28 01:19:54 2001 From: optimus at canit.se (Iggy Drougge) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:06 2005 Subject: email/browser for DOS or C64/128? In-Reply-To: <002f01c15f6f$36900020$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> Message-ID: <586.701T2700T4396125optimus@canit.se> Richard Erlacher skrev: Erlacher, are you replying on top just to spite me? How will we sort this out now? Will I have to snip the passage which would contain information supplying the context? Yes, I'll have to do that. When will you learn? >Which CPU does this use? The COMMODOREs of that era had both the Z80 and the >65xx, didn't they? This? The SuperCPU? That's a 65816. The VIC-20 used a 6502, the C64 a 6510 and the C128 used an 8510, IIRC, as well as a Z80 for CP/M. -- En ligne avec Thor 2.6a. Ky?suke: Jag heter Kurre, Kurre Carlsson! Jag: Det heter du inte alls! From edick at idcomm.com Sun Oct 28 01:12:05 2001 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:06 2005 Subject: email/browser for DOS or C64/128? References: <586.701T2700T4396125optimus@canit.se> Message-ID: <000d01c15f7f$d9569520$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> It's hard to know what to do in this environment. I've been crabbed at so many times for leaving the context in place, which I definitely prefer, since I process lots (hundreds) of emails every day and am getting forgetful as I get older, hence tend to lose my place. Several people have slow terminals via shell access, however, and can't take the time to download all the prior context, however. Some places, as you may know, charge for email by the bit, which means chopping off the prior message saves them money as well as time. Having a fairly high bandwidth connection myself, it doesn't matter so much at this end. HOWEVER ... what I was asking about, actually was WHICH CPU in the COM64/128 runs the browser/etc software. Maybe this thread has drifted off, but I was just curious whether somebody had built a stack for the 6502 core. I've been curious because I'm looking at whipping up a middle layer IP stack processor in programmable logic, implementing just the TCP/UDP at the top and IP/ICMP at the bottom, leaving ARP and all the lower-level (local networi) stuff for someone else, and likewise, leaving the upper layers for someone else as well, e.g. by shoving the data out parallel ports. I have to be able to stream at a rate that keeps up with 10Gb ethernet, parallel interfaced at the lower interface, however. Seeing how this works on a simple CPU like the 6502 core might shed some light and provide some inspiration. Dick ----- Original Message ----- From: "Iggy Drougge" To: "Richard Erlacher" Sent: Sunday, October 28, 2001 12:19 AM Subject: Re: email/browser for DOS or C64/128? > Richard Erlacher skrev: > > Erlacher, are you replying on top just to spite me? How will we sort this out > now? Will I have to snip the passage which would contain information supplying > the context? Yes, I'll have to do that. > When will you learn? > > >Which CPU does this use? The COMMODOREs of that era had both the Z80 and the > >65xx, didn't they? > > This? The SuperCPU? That's a 65816. > The VIC-20 used a 6502, the C64 a 6510 and the C128 used an 8510, IIRC, as > well as a Z80 for CP/M. > > -- > En ligne avec Thor 2.6a. > > Ky?suke: Jag heter Kurre, Kurre Carlsson! > Jag: Det heter du inte alls! > > > From edick at idcomm.com Sun Oct 28 01:13:33 2001 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:06 2005 Subject: email/browser for DOS or C64/128? References: <200110280539.WAA10314@stockholm.ptloma.edu> Message-ID: <001901c15f80$0dea5c40$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> What I wondered was which CPU runs the IP stack. Do you know? Is the source code where one can look it over? Dick ----- Original Message ----- From: "Cameron Kaiser" To: Sent: Saturday, October 27, 2001 11:39 PM Subject: Re: email/browser for DOS or C64/128? > > Which CPU does this use? The COMMODOREs of that era had both the Z80 and the > > 65xx, didn't they? > > The C128 has a Z80 and 8502 (6502 derivative) but they do not operate > simultaneously. The Z80 in the C128 is virtually only used for CP/M; very > little native mode software uses it. (Interestingly, it is the master > processor on bootup -- see > > http://www.retrobits.com/ckb/secret/d128.html > > ). All other Commodore 8-bits are 6502-based only, although there is a > Z80 cartridge for the C64 to allow it to run CP/M 2.2. > > -- > ----------------------------- personal page: http://www.armory.com/~spectre/ -- > Cameron Kaiser, Point Loma Nazarene University * ckaiser@stockholm.ptloma.edu > -- Honk if you're illiterate! ------------------------------------------------- > > From jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de Sun Oct 28 04:14:08 2001 From: jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de (jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:06 2005 Subject: Tadpole Sparcbook 2: need bootable software In-Reply-To: <15323.29773.174927.543022@babbage> Message-ID: <200110281014.f9SAE8e00522@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> On 27 Oct, Bob Bramwell wrote: > bootable OS installation CD [...] > downloadable images of the relevant "stuff" so that I can boot this > sucker across a network. http://www.netbsd.org/ or http://www.openbsd.org/ is a good alternative to Solaris / SunOS for older SPARCs. On the NetBSD web site is a quite good netbot-HOWTO... -- tschuess, Jochen Homepage: http://www.unixag-kl.fh-kl.de/~jkunz From foxvideo at wincom.net Sun Oct 28 05:51:25 2001 From: foxvideo at wincom.net (Charles E. Fox) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:06 2005 Subject: UTC Transformer type H-89 In-Reply-To: <20011028054507.IZHH1653.imf04bis.bellsouth.net@thegoodw> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20011028064926.00a5a780@mail.wincom.net> At 12:18 AM 28/10/2001 -0400, you wrote: >Ran across this on Ebay tonight: > >http://cgi.ebay.com/aw-cgi/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=1649083427 > >This transformer has a 115V primary, and several taps on the secondary >ranging from 5 to 850 volts. What kind of device might require such a wide >range of voltages? > >BTW (for those without 'net access) the device sold for USD103.50 and there >were no details as to what this thing was used in. This leads me to >believe that it's a high failure-rate component in a relatively expensive >(and not uncommon) piece of gear. > >Any clues? > >Glen >0/0 Oscillograph, maybe. Tube testers used a wide range of voltages,but I don't think 850! Charlie Fox Chas E. Fox Video Productions 793 Argyle Rd. Windsor ON N8Y 3J8 foxvideo@wincom.net Check out: Camcorder Kindergarten at http://chasfoxvideo.com From thompson at mail.athenet.net Sun Oct 28 06:41:00 2001 From: thompson at mail.athenet.net (Paul Thompson) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:06 2005 Subject: first step getting VAX 6000-400 booted ... In-Reply-To: <3BD9B799.6C351149@aurora.regenstrief.org> Message-ID: On Fri, 26 Oct 2001, Gunther Schadow wrote: > Well, > > it still doesn't work. I booted again VMS from TK (takes hours) > trying various combinations of hardware and no success. I have > Is there any resident test that will check the drive/host > interaction without requiring me to wait for another VMS > boot cycle. Each attempt at rewiring and rebooting costs me > about one hour for the VMS to boot from TK again so I need > to keep this minimal. You can attempt to redetect devices after making changes to cabling and like w/o a reboot by $MC SYSGEN AUTOCONFIGURE ALL -- From thompson at mail.athenet.net Sun Oct 28 06:42:39 2001 From: thompson at mail.athenet.net (Paul Thompson) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:06 2005 Subject: first step getting VAX 6000-400 booted ... In-Reply-To: <3BD9B799.6C351149@aurora.regenstrief.org> Message-ID: On Fri, 26 Oct 2001, Gunther Schadow wrote: > Is there any resident test that will check the drive/host > interaction without requiring me to wait for another VMS > boot cycle. Each attempt at rewiring and rebooting costs me > about one hour for the VMS to boot from TK again so I need > to keep this minimal. Another thought: have you tried looking at the output of ANALYSE/ERROR/SINCE=TODAY or SHOW ERROR. I forget if you mentioned this or not. -- From Antonio.Carlini at riverstonenet.com Sun Oct 28 07:14:08 2001 From: Antonio.Carlini at riverstonenet.com (Carlini, Antonio) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:06 2005 Subject: first step getting VAX 6000-400 booted ... Message-ID: <3820E2042B6ED5118DC200D0B78EDC470661CC@exc-reo1> > Eric Dittman wrote: > >If you can find the manual on the DMB32 it should have the pinouts for >the cable, which will make building a converter even easier. The user guide states that the DMB32 supports the LP32 generic printer specification. The pinout is on p1-13: 1 - DAT 3 5 - DAT 6 6 - DAT 7 8 - STROBE 12 - ONLINE 14 - CONN 17 - DAVFU 18 - DEMAND 20 - DAT 1 22 - DAT 2 23 - DAT 5 24 - DAT 4 26 - DAT 0 27-25 - MODULE GROUND It is a TTL-level interface. Antonio arcarlini@iee.org From Antonio.Carlini at riverstonenet.com Sun Oct 28 07:52:51 2001 From: Antonio.Carlini at riverstonenet.com (Carlini, Antonio) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:06 2005 Subject: first step getting VAX 6000-400 booted ... Message-ID: <3820E2042B6ED5118DC200D0B78EDC470661CD@exc-reo1> > Gunther Schadow wrote: > > it still doesn't work. I booted again VMS from TK (takes hours) Why not load up VMS at least for now - it should boot somewhat more quickly! (Althoug, quite worryingly, so should a TK50-based standalone backup!) >trying various combinations of hardware and no success. I have >given the RA90 a device address of 1. I have tried it on both >the KDB50 and the KDM70 without success. Now I am wondering >whether the SDI cable crossover issue is the problem? But >why can Geoff run his RA90 in the basement of his 6000? > >The specifications clearly say that you can do this: > >KDB50---->VAXbulkhead---->SA800bulkhead---->RA90 > >and Geoff does this > >KDB50---->VAXbulkhead---->RA90. Does he? I recall him saying that he has an RA9x in the bottom of his 6000 but I do not recall him stating that he used an even number of cables to do this. >So, the swapping issue seems more complicated than just >an uneven number of SDI cables! But I did exactly what >Geoff did! Or did he do it differently? How? May be there >are two sorts of SDI cables with or without cross-over? AFAIK, *all* SDI cables are the same. Even never works, odd works if everything else is right. > However, VMS never detects any actual drive. So how could I > possibly test this link between KDB50 and drive. It could be > any of this: > > - KDB50 SDI interface damaged but in a way that is not > detected by the self-test > - KDB50 backplane cabling not screwed on tightly enough > - SDI cabling broken > - SDI cabling mismatched (crossover issue) > - RA90 SDI interface damaged but in a way that is not > detected by the self-test > >Is there any resident test that will check the drive/host >interaction without requiring me to wait for another VMS >boot cycle. Each attempt at rewiring and rebooting costs me >about one hour for the VMS to boot from TK again so I need >to keep this minimal. OK. If standalone backup does not see the drive before you get to the $ prompt then something is clearly wrong (it should report a set of available drives, one of which should be DUAn: where n is the unit number). Check the drive first. Press the TEST switch - the TEST light should come on. Press the FAULT switch and *all* lights should come on. Now you know the lights work - press the TEST switch to leave test mode. You can run a set of drive tests as follows: - Power up: you'll setle with a display of R AB - Deselect A & B - press TEST - press Write Protect Now the display is T 00 with the rightmost 0 flashing - Use A & B to select a test number - Start the test by pressing Write Protect The display changes to S NN Once the test has finished the display changes to C NN - Stop the test by pressing A or B - Press TEST to leave test mode. One suggested set of diags is: - Spin *down* the drive - Select T 60 - Press Write Protect to start the test - The display does something like: S 60 LOT C 60 T 00 - T 60 has not done anything - it will simply loop the next test. - Select T 00 - Press Write Protect This will run a set of diags repeatedly. Leave to simmer for 5 minutes. Repeat the above with the drive spun up. (It performs a different set of diags). If all that uncovers no fault, there is a good chance that your drive is OK. You have tried a KDB50 and a KDM70 - assuming those are installed according to the manual, and the processor can see them, then that leaves just the cabling. If you have a KDM70, I would try to use that rather than the KDB50 since that way you do not depend on a working VAXBI bus. >Do we know the pinouts and signal patterns of the SDI (and >BTW the KLESI) so that I oculd use my scope to detect if >the wiring is O.K.? I didn't find pinouts and signals in >the KDB50, RA9x user manual (or the KLESI user manual >respectively). I've never come across a broken SDI cable, but it may be worthwhile doing a simple continuity check - each should be eight cables (four differential signals IIRC). Antonio From jpl15 at panix.com Sun Oct 28 07:57:50 2001 From: jpl15 at panix.com (John Lawson) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:06 2005 Subject: UTC Transformer type H-89 In-Reply-To: <20011028054507.IZHH1653.imf04bis.bellsouth.net@thegoodw> Message-ID: OT a little, but UTC has been making transformers since Tesla was a pup, and made a very large line of generic replacement items for basic repair work back when electronics glowed in the dark and 'computers' were folks who did low-level math grunt-work for insurance companies and big engineering firms. Having a 5v tap means 5 volt filament recitifier tubes.. 5U4, 5Y3s maybe... 850 V tap is undoubtedly center-tapped [is there a picture of the label? Most UTC replacement devices had schematics on the side...] Sounds maybe it's a replacement unit for one of the bigger tube TV sets from a few years (decades) back... the bigger B/W and early color sets needed a pretty high initial DC level (B+) to drive the Horizontal amps and HV section. Could also be a replacement for a Ham Transmitter from the same era. $103??? Well, if you needed it, and nothing else would fit... I guess so. That was a lot of money back then. I'm too lazy to look up UTC and the part number on the web to see if any reference data has been archived. Cheerz John From jhfine at idirect.com Sun Oct 28 07:47:16 2001 From: jhfine at idirect.com (Jerome Fine) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:06 2005 Subject: RD54 and RT-11 5.4D References: <200110280022.f9S0MIe14271@narnia.int.dittman.net> Message-ID: <3BDC0C64.D041D805@idirect.com> >Eric Dittman wrote: > > Do you use RT-11 very much? Which monitor and what programs > > do you run? Also, how did you boot RT-11? > I haven't used RT-11 for several years. I booted from an RX50 > (and now I've tried an RX33) drive. Jerome Fine replies: Interesting!!!!!!!!!! Now how did you acquire a bootable RX33 floppy? I presume from the same source as the RX50. Do you have the complete V5.04D distribution? And now that I am thinking of it, do you have both the RX50 and RX33 drives connected at the same time? By the way, RT-11 is able to do an actual FORMAT (real Low Level Format) on the RX33 drive with the RQDX3 controller. I think this was the first (and probably last) time that DEC supported an LLF for a floppy. Of course, it was not really of much help since the LLF for the RX33 media results in the same LLF as is used for the HD 5 1/4" PC floppy and of course the same capacity in terms of blocks. So at that point, with pre-formatted 5 1/4" media available for the PC world, DEC could not even pretend that media there were already sold with the LLF done were unique. And since the drive was one of the standard PC options which already have the ability to do a LLF on the PC, there was no excuse for not being able to do an LLF under RT-11 as well. > > Is it possible that the WRITE PROTECT button on the front panel > > is pressed? You can determine that by sending the command: > > DUMP/TERM DU0: > > If the DUMP works, then you are at least able to read the drive. > The WRITE PROTECT is off, and I can read the drive with DUMP. I > can even see the ODS-2 boot blocks. Very confusing!!!!!!!!!!! While you did not show the output from the DUMP/TERM DU0:/ONLY:8. command, I will assume that it was reasonable and that you stopped it with a double CTRL/C command. I also showed the optional switch (/START:789. is allowed as well with a decimal point) which will DUMP only a single block. If you can READ the logical partition DU0:, then I am at a complete loss as to why you can't WRITE it. Does anyone know if the RD54 has a WRITE PROTECT jumper that can be placed on the drive? Of course, it might also be the cables or the drive that have a hardware problem, but that seems so unlikely. On the other hand maybe the WRITE PROTECT button on the front panel for the BA23 box is not lit and still pressed IN. I can't ever remember seeing that happen. And if I am ever able to READ a drive on RT-11, then baring my doing something explicit to prevent my attempting to WRITE on the drive that I know about since it would be something very explicit that would be required, I have never been unable to WRITE to a hard drive under RT-11 when a DUMP was already successful. Does anyone else here have a suggestion? Also, try just the command: INIT DU0: Maybe there is something funny with V5.04D of RT-11????? > > In addition, also try the command: > > SHOW DEV:DU > > which will also show the map between the logical MSCP units and the > > physical hardware. Perhaps the ODS-2 mapping was different. > Here's the output: > .show dev:du > Device Status CSR Vector(s) > ------ ------ --- --------- > DU Resident 172150 154 > DU0: is set UNIT=0, PART=0, PORT= 0 > DU1: is set UNIT=1, PART=0, PORT= 0 > DU2: is set UNIT=2, PART=0, PORT= 0 > DU3: is set UNIT=3, PART=0, PORT= 0 > DU4: is set UNIT=4, PART=0, PORT= 0 > DU5: is set UNIT=5, PART=0, PORT= 0 > DU6: is set UNIT=6, PART=0, PORT= 0 > DU7: is set UNIT=7, PART=0, PORT= 0 This looks completely correct and expected. It also says that you booted from the RX50 which I presume is DU1: At this point, don't try anything fancy until you can get DU0: to work. Then you can try some tricks on RT-11. > > I presume you are using an RQDX3 (M7555) and DS3 is used on > > the drive. Also, which monitor are you using? A DEC distributed > > monitor will not have any strange aspects, but a SYSGEN might. > > RT11SJ and RT11FB use DU.SYS while RT11XM uses DUX.SYS > > as the device driver. And check the cables on the drive a second time. > > Finally, does the RX50 work? If not, begin to suspect hardware > > problems? > The RX50 (and RX33, if I swap it for the RX50) works. I'm using the > DEC distribution. There's been no SYSGEN at this point. > Eric Dittman > dittman@dittman.net > Check out the DEC Enthusiasts Club at http://www.dittman.net/ I am at a complete loss as to why the DU0: is not able to have an INIT performed. One other test that might shed some light is: RUN SIPP and answer DU0:/A press twice to get to the data entry part of the program. Then type in any value that is different followed by and on the next line type followed by If at this point you get an error message, then the drive is not accepting a WRITE operation. I still will not be able to explain, but it would be consistent. Another test will be the command (assuming the RX50 is DU1:): COPY/DEVICE DU1: DU0: If this also does not work, then again it is consistent. The result will be an exact copy of the 800 blocks from the RX50 onto DU0: of the RD54, but that can VERY easily be fixed up by the command: SQUEEZE DU0: either before or after you send the command: BOOT DU0: If any of these commands allow you to WRITE on the RD54, you may have found a bug in V5.04D of RT-11. >>Allison wrote: >> It it was working before all you need to do is INIT the disk to establish >> an RT file system. The problem is RT11 doesnt like 160mb as it wants >> not more than 32mb per logical or physical drive. >Doesn't the "/segment:5" split the disk up? NO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! This post is not the place for a seminar on splitting up the RD54 disk into five logical partitions. Actually, that is already done by the RQDX3, you just need to set up the MAP correctly. Once you can BOOT DU0: that will be the time. The SET commands are trivial, but you have to decide which logical partitions are which. In V5.04D of RT-11, DEC omitted one instruction in the code for the secondary boot program and as a result, RT-11 can not use a non-zero physical partition as the system device. The extra instruction was added in a later version, but DU.MAC can easily be fixed as well. The command: INIT DU0:/SEGMENT:5 sets up the file structure for DU0: so that there are only 5 segments in the file directory instead of the maximum of 31. Each file directory segment is only two blocks (in RT-11 they always start at physical block 6) and each of the logical (or physical depending on how you view the mapping of the RD54) holds 65536 blocks with block 65535 (blocks are numbered from 0 to 65535 decimal) normally being inaccessible by convention. This means that you devote only 68 blocks at most for the initially empty file structure set-up out of 65535 blocks when there are 31 file directory segments. Since each file directory segment can hold a maximum if 72 file entries even after a SQUEEZE command is performed, having only 5 file directory segments (from block 6 to 15) would normally limit you to a maximum of 358 files (the last segment can hold only 70 files due to a software limitation). In practice, the actual total for a novice would be only about half that number or even less. THEREFORE, NOT RECOMMENDED for a partition with 65536 blocks. If you are able to get the RD54 to work, please let us know. If not, answers to what happens when you try the commands: DUMP/TERM DU0:/START:8./END:9. RUN SIPP COPY/DEVICE DU1: DU0: would be very helpful. If you can get the RD54 to work, then comes the lesson on setting up the MAP tables via SET commands so that you can access the other physical (logical?) partitions. Good luck! Sincerely yours, Jerome Fine From millerbj at umich.edu Sun Oct 28 08:56:56 2001 From: millerbj at umich.edu (Blair J. Miller) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:06 2005 Subject: IBM PowerStation 530 - Who wants it? Message-ID: <004101c15fc0$c9aa8640$2ed0d58d@fluffy> Hey all, Well, after dealing with my postings of rather mundane questions about the PowerStation 530 about a month ago, I disappeared. Now I'm back, and I've got only one question - who wants it? The thing is, as much fun as it would be to screw around with the thing, I simply don't have the time to do so, and what's the point of depriving the world of a classic computer just so that someday, I'll look at it, forget about this email list, and toss it in the trash. To hell with that. So, here goes: I know someone from this list already wanted the computer from me, but I lost his/her email. If you still want it, you get first crack. Otherwise, anyone who's willing to drive over to Ann Arbor and pick it up from my dorm is more than welcome. Or, if the case need be, and you're close enough (say... 50 miles or so) and you want to pay me gas money, I'll drop it off (it gets really boring here, I drive around aimlessly to keep myself entertained, so going somewhere would be perhaps even more interesting). Oh, the computer is a working IBM Powerstation 530 without a monitor, keyboard, etc... I have an adaptor cable to convert the three D-sub mini BNC to regular BNC, and also perhaps 3 30 or so foot RGB BNC cables (probably not useful at all, but if someone wants them, again, just let me know). I don't know how much RAM, etc. I do have the key for it. Thanks, sorry for the length. Blair From KenzieM at sympatico.ca Sun Oct 28 09:07:39 2001 From: KenzieM at sympatico.ca (Mike Kenzie) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:06 2005 Subject: Price guide for vintage computers References: <20011026043759.KCXT14515.imf04bis.bellsouth.net@thegoodw> Message-ID: <00ba01c15fc2$4abba470$0101a8c0@sympatico.ca> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Glen Goodwin" To: Sent: Thursday, October 25, 2001 11:36 PM Subject: Price guide for vintage computers > > >Luckily, some manner of salvation is on its way in the form of a price > > >guide. No, I'm not writing it, but the person who is will make it known > > >very soon. I suggested a checklist list (like birders use) to one author of a computer collecting book. List the machine, manufacturer, standard components, upgrades, numbers produced. On a similar note I'm looking formalise the notes relating to my collection and am looking for database schema or XML forms to sort the information. I also have a bunch of machines to trade away to interested parties. From spectre at stockholm.ptloma.edu Sun Oct 28 09:17:15 2001 From: spectre at stockholm.ptloma.edu (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:06 2005 Subject: email/browser for DOS or C64/128? In-Reply-To: <586.701T2700T4396125optimus@canit.se> from Iggy Drougge at "Oct 28, 1 07:19:54 am" Message-ID: <200110281517.IAA10612@stockholm.ptloma.edu> > The VIC-20 used a 6502, the C64 a 6510 and the C128 used an 8510, IIRC, as > well as a Z80 for CP/M. 8502, actually. There is also a 7501/8501 used in the Plus/4 and 16, and a 4510 used in the mythical C65. HMOS-2 C64s and 64Cs use the 8500. -- ----------------------------- personal page: http://www.armory.com/~spectre/ -- Cameron Kaiser, Point Loma Nazarene University * ckaiser@stockholm.ptloma.edu -- What you don't know won't help you much either. -- D. Bennett -------------- From mhstein at usa.net Sun Oct 28 09:42:11 2001 From: mhstein at usa.net (M H Stein) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:06 2005 Subject: Big Iron - was Genrad Futuredata info Message-ID: <01C15FA4.13C16040@mse-d03> Having just dropped a rackmount Cromemco System 3 in the process of moving it, I can assure you that it's (relatively) big and there's lots of iron in that PS transformer... and IIRC, it can support around 32 terminals or so running UNIX with the right cards. --------------Original Message-------------- Craig Landrum skrev: >Also, having just joined this list, it would appear to be >dominated by primarily big iron types instead of us IMSAI >and S100 junkies. Assuming there are a few out there and >you wish to correspond, here's what I have: While I agree that there are a lot of rack-mount random TTL junkies here, to some of us, S-100 and things like that are "big iron" as well. =) From mhstein at usa.net Sun Oct 28 10:13:49 2001 From: mhstein at usa.net (M H Stein) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:06 2005 Subject: VLB SCSI? Message-ID: <01C15FA4.1B0E93E0@mse-d03> Well, I'm not sure that the S-100 "standard" was all that rigidly adhered to either, not to mention that everything else was proprietary at that time (not to mention IBM's infamous Slot 8, PS/1's and MCA, non-standard memory modules, etc.)... New PSU fans are still abundantly available up here in Toronto; if ya really need one, or a complete PSU (especially an odd-sized one) or anything else for an old PC, drop me a line. mike -----------------Original Message--------------- Date: Sat, 27 Oct 2001 17:19:50 -0600 From: "Richard Erlacher" Subject: Re: VLB SCSI? because IBM no longer provided a firm ISA-equipped standard that everyone else could clone, there was nothing but chaos, and that's the way it's been ever since. The whole concept of "standard" was corrupted in the course of this evolutionary step, and it was a step into the quagmire we're all swimming in today. BTW, if that "bulky old PSU" still works, I'd happily relieve you of the fan and PSU board, and pay you for the freight, except for where you're located. I find them harder and harder to get, From mhstein at usa.net Sun Oct 28 09:56:36 2001 From: mhstein at usa.net (M H Stein) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:06 2005 Subject: Sharp PC-5000 for sale (early 1983 "laptop") update Message-ID: <01C15FA4.1785BB40@mse-d03> You know, Sellam, from a marketing perspective that may not be the most effective title for that web page... I didn't know that the printer was an option; thought they all had one; live & learn. IIRC, the bubble memory cartridges alone were abt, $250, at least up here in the rapidly freezing north. -----------------Original message---------------- Date: Sat, 27 Oct 2001 15:58:28 -0700 (PDT) From: Vintage Computer Festival Subject: Re: Sharp PC-5000 for sale (early 1983 "laptop") update Someone's going to get a hell of a deal. Top offer so far is $77. I'm also throwing in the printer module with this: http://www.siconic.com/crap/sharp_t_printer.jpg From mbbrutman at magnaspeed.net Sun Oct 28 11:35:59 2001 From: mbbrutman at magnaspeed.net (Michael B. Brutman) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:06 2005 Subject: VLB SCSI Message-ID: <3BDC41FF.B892D6E1@magnaspeed.net> I've never had a problem with two Adaptec 2940AU cards, an Adaptec 1542, or 2 Adaptec 1520s. The drivers leave something to be desired once in a while. My 486 VLB system runs a Buslogic BT445S SCSI card (Fast SCSI II) and an ATI Graphics Ultra Pro. The Buslogic has been a wonderful card; it's been in service 7 years now under OS/2, DOS, Winblows, and now Linux. Too bad they were bought out by Mylex, and eventually disappeared into oblivion. Any other Buslogic owners out there? The ATI card was marvellous at the time - 1280x1024 in 256 colors with a 70+ Hz refresh rate. It's a little flakey now - the system requires me to hit the reset switch before it will boot. Replacement ATI VLB cards have been DOA ... apparently they don't age too well. From cfandt at netsync.net Sun Oct 28 11:50:09 2001 From: cfandt at netsync.net (Christian Fandt) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:06 2005 Subject: OT: Playstation 2 opinion? Message-ID: <4.1.20011027132940.00baa100@206.231.8.2> Please reply OFF list since this is decidedly off topic. I figure there are at least several gamers on the list who could offer their feelings on the questions we have, hence my approaching the list. Anyway, Beverly and I are thinking of getting our 8-yr-old a Playstation 2 for Christmas or his early February birthday. I'm not really into video games at all so we could use some feedback. I just understand some of the technology :-) We've had a Nintendo 64 for the past year and its likeable. I do admit having fun with a Donkey Kong and a couple different Super Mario games. They are indeed challenging from a hand-eye coordination, memory and limited intellectual standpoint, so I begrudgingly admit there is some value for Matt to play them. However, Bev has found that most of Matt's friends have Playstation I's and II's and that the game selection is somewhat better than N64. Matt also expresses a slight preference for the PS games. So, we're shopping. Bev understands DVD's can be played on the PS 2 unit. Are these movie DVD's they're talking about? Audio DVD's? How is the playback quality? Comparable to an average DVD player? Any advice on prices? Usual price at Wal-Mart, Ames and other dept. stores is $299 so we figure that's that unless a sale pops up. Thanks in advance. -Chris -- -- Christian Fandt, Electronic/Electrical Historian Jamestown, NY USA cfandt@netsync.net Member of Antique Wireless Association URL: http://www.antiquewireless.org/ From foo at siconic.com Sun Oct 28 11:55:54 2001 From: foo at siconic.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:06 2005 Subject: Sharp PC-5000 for sale (early 1983 "laptop") update In-Reply-To: <01C15FA4.1785BB40@mse-d03> Message-ID: On Sun, 28 Oct 2001, M H Stein wrote: > You know, Sellam, from a marketing perspective that may not be the > most effective title for that web page... One man's crap is another man's fertilizer. > I didn't know that the printer was an option; thought they all had As far as I know, the printer was an add-on option. > one; live & learn. IIRC, the bubble memory cartridges alone were abt, > $250, at least up here in the rapidly freezing north. Which only furthers my belief that whoever gets this will surely get a deal (still only at $77). Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org From gunther at aurora.regenstrief.org Sun Oct 28 12:08:44 2001 From: gunther at aurora.regenstrief.org (Gunther Schadow) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:07 2005 Subject: first step getting VAX 6000-400 booted ... References: <3820E2042B6ED5118DC200D0B78EDC470661CD@exc-reo1> Message-ID: <3BDC49AC.9030508@aurora.regenstrief.org> Carlini, Antonio wrote: > >The specifications clearly say that you can do this: > > > >KDB50---->VAXbulkhead---->SA800bulkhead---->RA90 > > > >and Geoff does this > > > >KDB50---->VAXbulkhead---->RA90. > > Does he? I recall him saying that he has > an RA9x in the bottom of his 6000 but I > do not recall him stating that he used > an even number of cables to do this. > AFAIK, *all* SDI cables are the same. Even never > works, odd works if everything else is right. O.K. thanks Antonio. I appreciate strong advice. I am sure now that it is the cabling, i.e. my fault. Today I'm going to sort out my tons of cables and am going to find a cable with connector or something to put inbetween. BTW, my one drive I tried has passed all internal tests. The second one I tried to put into operation caused a fuse to blow out after it sucked some dust into its air inlet. Need to get those drives cleaned more thorroughly that were stored in the barn with those birds :-). thanks much, I should get it to work now. At least that makes the VMS boot quicker. Still don't know why the TU81 isn't detected, but that's for later. -Gunther -- Gunther Schadow, M.D., Ph.D. gschadow@regenstrief.org Medical Information Scientist Regenstrief Institute for Health Care Adjunct Assistant Professor Indiana University School of Medicine tel:1(317)630-7960 http://aurora.regenstrief.org From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Sun Oct 28 12:40:25 2001 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (Ben Franchuk) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:07 2005 Subject: OT: Playstation 2 opinion? References: <4.1.20011027132940.00baa100@206.231.8.2> Message-ID: <3BDC5119.5B61F477@jetnet.ab.ca> Christian Fandt wrote: > Bev understands DVD's can be played on the PS 2 unit. Are these movie DVD's > they're talking about? Audio DVD's? How is the playback quality? Comparable > to an average DVD player? One word of warning with DVD's. Most DVD's are wide screen so you may want to consider that if you are viewing on a small TV. Ben. -- Standard Disclaimer : 97% speculation 2% bad grammar 1% facts. "Pre-historic Cpu's" http://www.jetnet.ab.ca/users/bfranchuk Now with schematics. From gunther at aurora.regenstrief.org Sun Oct 28 12:46:38 2001 From: gunther at aurora.regenstrief.org (Gunther Schadow) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:07 2005 Subject: Do we have a VAX organization? Message-ID: <3BDC528E.7040401@aurora.regenstrief.org> Hi, I usually hate organizational issues, but I think us VAX collectors need at least a semi-formal organizaton. Why? - Most importantly this could help convince those that either decomission or scrap VAX hardware to give it away instead. (Yes, the last wave of decommissioned VAX 6000-600 and 7000/10000 is coming up, plus the tail of older models that might occasionally still be in use.) Also think of all the overpriced DEC hardware suppliers who soon have to get rid of their stocks that no business customer needs anymore. - Second this would give one point where we could organize trades and consolidate shipment issues ("VAX trecks") - It could help us negotiate good truck rental rates. Penske has perhaps the best rate you can get, but not everyone gets the best rate (i.e. 10 cents per mile) because that's for business customers only, normally. But usually with an organization (and a little ad on the web-site) you can get good deals on vehicle rentals. And it goes on. - We could promote semi-public collections like little private museums that some of us are building. - Finally it could help in right out fundraising for covering such expenses as electricity and internet connectivity for cyber- museums and public use VAXen. We don't have to start all over but can take something that already exists. (I'm also not looking to become a chairman of anything, one of the typical incentives for people suggesting new organizations :-) For example, I think this can start with a web site. Some of us already have vax related domain names which we can use, like Isildur's vaxpower.org. So, a www.vaxpower.org could be it. There's also the VAX rescue squad, put in my several futile attempts to sign up I realized that this project seems rather dead. I don't know if this should be anything tightly connected with DECUS, because DECUS is (a) too COMPAQ or whatever.com oriented, (b) too VMS oriented, and (c) seems to have too much overhead (organizational structure, membership fees, unrelated agenda items). But I could be wrong about that. Another question is if this should not be a DEC/VAX only group but rather a vintage computer stuff group, like Sellam Ismail's site. May be this could be it. What's important is that this site would help accomplish above-mentioned goals, and that it would be a showcase of our VAX collections and simply an address book of the kind that the VAX rescue squad wanted to be. Something you can point to when negotiating with a source. A network of friends you can call up and ask for help in rescuing someting in an otherwise remote area. Also a set of rules of conduct dealing with shared hauls, (like what if: you agree to help with a haul from a friend accross the country and agree on keeping certain things, but suddenly a PDP-8 shows up in that lot? These are things that could help maintain friendship and integrity and reduce grief.) So, what do you think? regards -Gunther -- Gunther Schadow, M.D., Ph.D. gschadow@regenstrief.org Medical Information Scientist Regenstrief Institute for Health Care Adjunct Assistant Professor Indiana University School of Medicine tel:1(317)630-7960 http://aurora.regenstrief.org From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Sun Oct 28 12:58:38 2001 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (Ben Franchuk) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:07 2005 Subject: Almost on topic - Cassette I/O Message-ID: <3BDC555E.5A13101E@jetnet.ab.ca> I am building a FPGA ( Field programmable gate array ) computer in the style of the early computers that had a front panel and TTY for I/O. While I don't have have a front panel working the Hardware serial bootstrap does work on my prototype. Since I have a few LOGIC cells left in my FPGA to play with I was thinking adding a cassette interface. Does anybody know of schematics on the web that I can get ideas from. Ben Franchuk. -- Standard Disclaimer : 97% speculation 2% bad grammar 1% facts. "Pre-historic Cpu's" http://www.jetnet.ab.ca/users/bfranchuk Now with schematics. From mrfusion at umbar.vaxpower.org Sun Oct 28 13:02:46 2001 From: mrfusion at umbar.vaxpower.org (Lord Isildur) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:07 2005 Subject: Do we have a VAX organization? In-Reply-To: <3BDC528E.7040401@aurora.regenstrief.org> Message-ID: hello, I think itas a pretty cool idea. Probably the most 'organization' like thing this really would need that it doesnt have just from this list, the classiccmp list, comp.sys.dec, comp.os.vms, and a few other newsgroups, is a non-profit to allow companies who might have reluctance giving away old hardware to feel a little better about it. Now, forming a nonprofit corporation actually costs money, as does maintaining it. DE incorporations afaik run about $500, and then one would probably need an accountant every year for tax time to make sure everything is in order, which could probably cost about $100 a year. Thats more than i think any individual here is willing to shoulder... I will be soon putting up on a faster network www.vaxpower.org, which is for now still on a slow home network, and will put up some vax-ish page at that point, with links (or mirrors) of most of the other vax related pages i know of. I'd be glad to host a vax-dedicated or just retro iron oriented page there as well. (for folks who have heard me say for a while that im moving the main vaxpower machine to the faster network, ive had some trouble along the way.. its actually a pmax box, but originally i tried to get an ultrix install that had AFS 3.2 support to work in the newer AFS environment that the machine will find itself. no dice. NetBSD 1.4something was not as stable as i'd like it to be on the machine (its a ds5000/260), and im going back to ultrix, forget afs for now, and ill try hacking on arla when time permits. im making the boot disk right now. sorry for the delay!) To be more politically correct, i could host it on a vax, too.. Back to the point, i think as long as people keep their eyes open, coordinate our own finds and vax treks with anyone else on the list who might be rescuing an old machine (for example i'm giving a home to a lisp machine next weekend) (it's much smaller than a vax 6000, gunther- once i find my next house ill come looking for a 6k though! :) , and perhaps if we post to a few groups that if they have old hardware that needs a home, to tell us about it or go to www.vaxpower.org or something.. basically get a name and a simple url to get around as the place to look when youre ready to toss some old iron. Somebody (if enough people keep bugging me, i'd help, but i'm likely to procrastinate on it) also should send letters, perhaps on paper, to the various computer museums, resellers, etc, around the country, just to let them know that when they have something they want taken off their hands, that we're probably willing to take it.. also , for the museums, etc, which often have public funding, we might even (if wehad a nonprofit) solicit some funding ourselves for preservation. There is a ton of money being wasted on this sort of thing, so with enough diligance and some luck i think there could even be some support for such a venture. happy hacking, isildur On Sun, 28 Oct 2001, Gunther Schadow wrote: > Hi, > > I usually hate organizational issues, but I think us VAX collectors > need at least a semi-formal organizaton. Why? > > - Most importantly this could help convince those that either > decomission or scrap VAX hardware to give it away instead. > (Yes, the last wave of decommissioned VAX 6000-600 and > 7000/10000 is coming up, plus the tail of older models that > might occasionally still be in use.) Also think of all the > overpriced DEC hardware suppliers who soon have to get rid > of their stocks that no business customer needs anymore. > > - Second this would give one point where we could organize trades > and consolidate shipment issues ("VAX trecks") > > - It could help us negotiate good truck rental rates. Penske has > perhaps the best rate you can get, but not everyone gets the best > rate (i.e. 10 cents per mile) because that's for business customers > only, normally. But usually with an organization (and a little ad > on the web-site) you can get good deals on vehicle rentals. > > And it goes on. > > - We could promote semi-public collections like little private museums > that some of us are building. > > - Finally it could help in right out fundraising for covering such > expenses as electricity and internet connectivity for cyber- > museums and public use VAXen. > > We don't have to start all over but can take something that already > exists. (I'm also not looking to become a chairman of anything, > one of the typical incentives for people suggesting new organizations :-) > For example, I think this can start with a web site. Some of us already > have vax related domain names which we can use, like Isildur's > vaxpower.org. So, a www.vaxpower.org could be it. There's also the > VAX rescue squad, put in my several futile attempts to sign up > I realized that this project seems rather dead. I don't know if this > should be anything tightly connected with DECUS, because DECUS is > (a) too COMPAQ or whatever.com oriented, (b) too VMS oriented, and > (c) seems to have too much overhead (organizational structure, > membership fees, unrelated agenda items). But I could be wrong > about that. > > Another question is if this should not be a DEC/VAX only group > but rather a vintage computer stuff group, like Sellam Ismail's > site. May be this could be it. What's important is that this site > would help accomplish above-mentioned goals, and that it would > be a showcase of our VAX collections and simply an address book > of the kind that the VAX rescue squad wanted to be. Something you > can point to when negotiating with a source. A network of friends > you can call up and ask for help in rescuing someting in an > otherwise remote area. Also a set of rules of conduct dealing with > shared hauls, (like what if: you agree to help with a haul from > a friend accross the country and agree on keeping certain things, > but suddenly a PDP-8 shows up in that lot? These are things that > could help maintain friendship and integrity and reduce grief.) > > So, what do you think? > > regards > -Gunther > > -- > Gunther Schadow, M.D., Ph.D. gschadow@regenstrief.org > Medical Information Scientist Regenstrief Institute for Health Care > Adjunct Assistant Professor Indiana University School of Medicine > tel:1(317)630-7960 http://aurora.regenstrief.org > > > From fernande at internet1.net Sat Oct 27 14:07:59 2001 From: fernande at internet1.net (Chad Fernandez) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:07 2005 Subject: IBM PowerStation 530 - Who wants it? References: <004101c15fc0$c9aa8640$2ed0d58d@fluffy> Message-ID: <3BDB060F.FB4B4C5C@internet1.net> Blair, I'm in Battle Creek, so a drive to Ann Arbor wouldn't be too far for me to do. This is in the deskside server case correct? If so, I would love to have it. I see these on Ebay from time to time, and they are so heavy that shipping just isn't practical for me. Thanks, Chad Fernandez Michigan, USA From edick at idcomm.com Sun Oct 28 13:16:34 2001 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:07 2005 Subject: VLB SCSI? References: <01C15FA4.1B0E93E0@mse-d03> Message-ID: <000901c15fe5$0f6dfb20$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> No, the evolution of the S-100 market was really quite different from that of the IBM-PC market. The longer the S-100 was allowed to progress on its own, board vendors, with the notable exception of Godbout/CompuPro, who really never even guaranteed his boards to work with others of his own manufacture, tended to make their products more and more interoperable, as the market demanded it. It was a terrible overhead for them to buy back boards that wouldn't work with a customer's other equipment, so they made every effort to get around that. The proposal of a "standard" with the "optional" features they managed to put into it, put a quick stop to that. Most of the board makers had worked out most of the interoperability issues by that time, and the development of a standard offered them an opportunity to reverse the process, forcing their customers, foolish enough to believe their marketing line suggesting some sort of superiority or other, to buy new boards, all from the same manufacturer. This meant that whereas one previously used a CCS CPU and FDC, SD Systems' RAM, and TEI's I/O board, now one had to have boards with the same maker's trademark. In the case of CompuPro, the trademark wasn't enough. One had to have boards with the same series number, and, in some cases, the same manufacturing date, or they couldn't be relied upon to work together. One had to cope with the fact that some boards required a bus signal be grounded while others required it be tied high, while others yet required it be left floating or have a specific signal on it. The technical discussions in the standards committee meetings quickly deteriorated into discussions over which features should be mandatory and which should be optional. When the standard was adopted, it really wasn't a standard at all, since so many features, labeled optional, when implemented in accordance with one alternative, could cause another maker's product, equally compliant with the standard, to malfunction to such extent that it or the entire system didn't function. Once the standard was adopted, and by that I mean within weeks, the S-100 bus was a dead duck. From that point forward, the only way to ensure a set of boards complied with the same standard was to buy the set at the same time, from the same retailer, with a warranty to assure the buyer that the boards would work together. Of course one quickly learned he was high and dry as far as other products were concerned. The PC market started with a firm standard, however goofy (e.g. positive-going interrupt and reset signals on the bus, etc.) that, when faithfully adhered to, worked pretty much all the time so long as one didn't tamper with it. Once IBM, with its massive influence on the market (at least back then) set a standard, 3rd party manufacturers knew they had a large enough market for products that worked on that standard, and, frankly, they could live without IBM's competitors. Now that IBM is really of no further interest in the market, like every other large corporation that's attempted to assume the role of Mr. BIG on the market, nobody sets the standards, hence there's no penalty for failint to adhere to the standard/convention/whatever, that drives the design of new products. A typical example is the 64-bit PCI. I've seen several desirable cards offered for the 64-bit PCI, yet I've not seen even ONE advertised motherboard that actually supports 64-bit PCI. From what I've read, 32-bit PCI boards work in a 64-bit slot, yet nobody seems to be offering that feature in their advertisement. I'd guess that's because it's cheaper/easier to diverge slightly from the published standard in making these products, hence they don't make claims about compatibility. It's all about money, after all. Dick ----- Original Message ----- From: "M H Stein" To: "'ClassicComputers'" Sent: Sunday, October 28, 2001 9:13 AM Subject: Re: VLB SCSI? > Well, I'm not sure that the S-100 "standard" was all that rigidly adhered to either, not to mention that everything else was proprietary at that time (not to mention IBM's infamous Slot 8, PS/1's and MCA, non-standard memory modules, etc.)... > > New PSU fans are still abundantly available up here in Toronto; if ya really need one, or a complete PSU (especially an odd-sized one) or anything else for an old PC, drop me a line. > > mike > -----------------Original Message--------------- > > Date: Sat, 27 Oct 2001 17:19:50 -0600 > From: "Richard Erlacher" > Subject: Re: VLB SCSI? > > > because IBM no longer provided a firm ISA-equipped standard that everyone else could > clone, there was nothing but chaos, and that's the way it's been ever since. > The whole concept of "standard" was corrupted in the course of this evolutionary > step, and it was a step into the quagmire we're all swimming in today. > > From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun Oct 28 13:03:35 2001 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:07 2005 Subject: UTC Transformer type H-89 In-Reply-To: <20011028054507.IZHH1653.imf04bis.bellsouth.net@thegoodw> from "Glen Goodwin" at Oct 28, 1 00:18:43 am Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 994 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20011028/93c2df2f/attachment.ksh From allain at panix.com Sun Oct 28 13:24:46 2001 From: allain at panix.com (John Allain) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:07 2005 Subject: Do we have a VAX organization? References: <3BDC528E.7040401@aurora.regenstrief.org> Message-ID: <005201c15fe6$34b553a0$8a0101ac@ibm23xhr06> > So, a www.vaxpower.org could be it. Maybe so, but the www site right now seems to be run by a crazyman. All it says is "The city of Umbar was built in the Second Age by Numenorean voyagers." Absurdly Obtuse! John A. From jdonogh1 at prodigy.net Sun Oct 28 12:32:54 2001 From: jdonogh1 at prodigy.net (Jim Donoghue) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:07 2005 Subject: unknown SRAM chips Message-ID: <01102813325400.08169@ws1> Anybody have pinouts for these ICs - I think they are some kind of SRAM. Thanks. TMM2068AP-45 HM6147HP-35 From edick at idcomm.com Sun Oct 28 13:28:14 2001 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:07 2005 Subject: Almost on topic - Cassette I/O References: <3BDC555E.5A13101E@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <001701c15fe6$b061c9c0$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> I don't know what data rate you're after, but with a couple of parallel I/O bits, you can build a very seriously reliable audio cassette interface, requiring only that you ditially time the transitions on the serial link. If you use Manchester encoding which has timing information embedded in every bit, you can operate the cassette interface at the highest rate at which the head/media combination is capable, without any particular hardship. You just need to low-pass filter the output and AC-couple the input with a couple or three passives for each, you're done. If your cassette is capable of 10 kHz then you need simply approximate the I/O rate to match, since a string of either 1's or 0's will have that frequency, and the transitions between them will never have less than a +180-degree phase shift. Dick ----- Original Message ----- From: "Ben Franchuk" To: Sent: Sunday, October 28, 2001 11:58 AM Subject: Almost on topic - Cassette I/O > I am building a FPGA ( Field programmable gate array ) computer > in the style of the early computers that had a front panel and > TTY for I/O. While I don't have have a front panel working the > Hardware serial bootstrap does work on my prototype. Since I > have a few LOGIC cells left in my FPGA to play with I was > thinking adding a cassette interface. Does anybody know of > schematics on the web that I can get ideas from. > Ben Franchuk. > -- > Standard Disclaimer : 97% speculation 2% bad grammar 1% facts. > "Pre-historic Cpu's" http://www.jetnet.ab.ca/users/bfranchuk > Now with schematics. > > From dittman at dittman.net Sun Oct 28 13:45:42 2001 From: dittman at dittman.net (Eric Dittman) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:07 2005 Subject: Do we have a VAX organization? In-Reply-To: <3BDC528E.7040401@aurora.regenstrief.org> from "Gunther Schadow" at Oct 28, 2001 01:46:38 PM Message-ID: <200110281945.f9SJjgG16812@narnia.int.dittman.net> > I usually hate organizational issues, but I think us VAX collectors > need at least a semi-formal organizaton. Why? >... > - Second this would give one point where we could organize trades > and consolidate shipment issues ("VAX trecks") >... Well, I already have the DEC Enthusiasts Club board set up. We could use that for discussions. It isn't really that active right now, but that can change if we start to use it more. I have discussion and for sale/trade boards already set up and working. -- Eric Dittman dittman@dittman.net Check out the DEC Enthusiasts Club at http://www.dittman.net/ From dittman at dittman.net Sun Oct 28 13:52:24 2001 From: dittman at dittman.net (Eric Dittman) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:07 2005 Subject: VLB SCSI? In-Reply-To: <000901c15fe5$0f6dfb20$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> from "Richard Erlacher" at Oct 28, 2001 12:16:34 PM Message-ID: <200110281952.f9SJqOP16836@narnia.int.dittman.net> > A typical example is the 64-bit PCI. I've seen several desirable cards offered > for the 64-bit PCI, yet I've not seen even ONE advertised motherboard that > actually supports 64-bit PCI. From what I've read, 32-bit PCI boards work in a > 64-bit slot, yet nobody seems to be offering that feature in their > advertisement. I'd guess that's because it's cheaper/easier to diverge slightly > from the published standard in making these products, hence they don't make > claims about compatibility. 64-bit PCI cards will work in a 32-bit PCI slot. I've got a four-port 64-bit Ethernet card in a 32-bit PCI slot in one of my systems. As for motherboards with 64-bit PCI slots, there are several. First off, there are several Alpha motherboards with 64-bit PCI slots. Then there are the boards for the Pentium III processors with the Serverworks chipsets. There are also motherboards for Athlon-MP processors with 64-bit PCI slots (some of which are also 66MHz slots). I know there were earlier motherboards for Pentium II and Xeon processors with 64-bit PCI slots, but they weren't advertised in the usual places as they were more of a specialized board, but they were advertised in some areas. -- Eric Dittman dittman@dittman.net Check out the DEC Enthusiasts Club at http://www.dittman.net/ From Innfogra at aol.com Sun Oct 28 14:28:48 2001 From: Innfogra at aol.com (Innfogra@aol.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:07 2005 Subject: Do we have a VAX organization? Message-ID: <3e.138e4094.290dc480@aol.com> One of the big problems that I see is Storage. Paul Pierce had to buy a building to store his collection of big iron, it will become the museum in the future. Big Iron takes space, dry space, with a concrete floor and a loading dock to handle comfortably. Does anyone have extra space. I know of good cheap space in Portland, OR but, as we know rented space is very expensive in the long run. I think it is a good idea to plan ahead for machine deinstalls. They often do come out of service in large batches. Not only are they much less common later but parts and manuals often become very scarce. How about a concrete slab/steel building in the dry part of the South West. Anyone have property or a building for long term storage. I am willing to help with my shipping skills anywhere in the Northwest. Paxton Astoria, OR -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20011028/b834cfb4/attachment.html From pete at dunnington.u-net.com Sun Oct 28 14:45:45 2001 From: pete at dunnington.u-net.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:07 2005 Subject: Do we have a VAX organization? In-Reply-To: "John Allain" "Re: Do we have a VAX organization?" (Oct 28, 14:24) References: <3BDC528E.7040401@aurora.regenstrief.org> <005201c15fe6$34b553a0$8a0101ac@ibm23xhr06> Message-ID: <10110282045.ZM24747@mindy.dunnington.u-net.com> On Oct 28, 14:24, John Allain wrote: > > So, a www.vaxpower.org could be it. > > Maybe so, but the www site right now seems to be run by a > crazyman. All it says is "The city of Umbar was built in the > Second Age by Numenorean voyagers." Absurdly Obtuse! Well, it's accurate even if uninformative :-) It's from Lord of the Rings, as is the name Isildur. Quite what that has to do with anything vaxish, I don't know, though :-) -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager University of York From pete at dunnington.u-net.com Sun Oct 28 14:59:37 2001 From: pete at dunnington.u-net.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:07 2005 Subject: unknown SRAM chips In-Reply-To: Jim Donoghue "unknown SRAM chips" (Oct 28, 13:32) References: <01102813325400.08169@ws1> Message-ID: <10110282059.ZM24757@mindy.dunnington.u-net.com> On Oct 28, 13:32, Jim Donoghue wrote: > Anybody have pinouts for these ICs - I think they are some kind of SRAM. > Thanks. > > TMM2068AP-45 TMM is Toshiba. I don't have the data sheet for that one, but I think it's 4K x 4. > HM6147HP-35 Equivalent to an Intel 2147 "high spped" static RAM, 4K x 1bit, 35ns access. 1 A0 18 Vcc 2 A1 17 A6 3 A2 16 A7 4 A3 15 A8 5 A4 14 A9 6 A5 13 A10 7 Dout 12 A11 8 /WE 11 Din 9 GND 10 /CS -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager University of York From dlw at trailingedge.com Sun Oct 28 15:59:21 2001 From: dlw at trailingedge.com (David Williams) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:07 2005 Subject: Collection Database - was Re: Price guide for vintage computers In-Reply-To: <00ba01c15fc2$4abba470$0101a8c0@sympatico.ca> References: <20011026043759.KCXT14515.imf04bis.bellsouth.net@thegoodw> <00ba01c15fc2$4abba470$0101a8c0@sympatico.ca> Message-ID: <1004306367.2427.3.camel@minerva> On Sun, 2001-10-28 at 09:07, Mike Kenzie wrote: > On a similar note I'm looking formalise the notes relating to my > collection and am looking for database schema or XML forms to sort the > information. I too would be interested in hearing what others have/use for this. I've recently had to move my whole collection and I'm taking the chance to inventory everthing and would like to set up a nice DB for it all. Software, hardware or whatever. From dpeschel at eskimo.com Sun Oct 28 16:49:16 2001 From: dpeschel at eskimo.com (Derek Peschel) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:07 2005 Subject: TOPS, OS or network? In-Reply-To: <200110232213.f9NMDxY15084@shell1.aracnet.com>; from healyzh@aracnet.com on Tue, Oct 23, 2001 at 03:13:56PM -0700 References: <200110232213.f9NMDxY15084@shell1.aracnet.com> Message-ID: <20011028144916.B23607@eskimo.eskimo.com> On Tue, Oct 23, 2001 at 03:13:56PM -0700, Zane H. Healy wrote: > > TOPS the OS vs TOPS the network, are they related? > > If you're wanting to know about TOPS-10 or TOPS-20 then I recommend my > PDP-10 emulation web page as a starting point: > > http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/pdp10emu.html > > If you're wanting to know about the network, isn't that some sort of ancient > Macintosh thing? Yes, and it seemed to me Mike's question was _why_ the network has the same name as the OS. Coincidence or something more sinister? :) I know that TOPS (the OS) stands for "Total Operating System". I don't know what the name of the network stands for. -- Derek From fdebros at verizon.net Sun Oct 28 16:53:13 2001 From: fdebros at verizon.net (Fred deBros) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:07 2005 Subject: Do we have a VAX organization? In-Reply-To: <200110281945.f9SJjgG16812@narnia.int.dittman.net> Message-ID: <000101c16003$5464b8e0$6501a8c0@fred> Well, I already have the DEC Enthusiasts Club board set up. We could use that for discussions. It isn't really that active right now, but that can change if we start to use it more. I have discussion and for sale/trade boards already set up and working. -- Eric Dittman dittman@dittman.net Check out the DEC Enthusiasts Club at http://www.dittman.net/ This is a very well done site and I only regret that it is not linked to netbsd-vax and linux-vax.And vice versa. It should also link to chuck's excellent site. The disappointing sites are Compaq, decus and freevms. A little brush-up and we have a very fine Dachorganisation for vax collectors. fred From edick at idcomm.com Sun Oct 28 16:57:38 2001 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:07 2005 Subject: VLB SCSI? References: <200110281952.f9SJqOP16836@narnia.int.dittman.net> Message-ID: <002b01c16003$f0d761a0$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> Here we go ... see below, plz. Dick ----- Original Message ----- From: "Eric Dittman" To: Sent: Sunday, October 28, 2001 12:52 PM Subject: Re: VLB SCSI? > > A typical example is the 64-bit PCI. I've seen several desirable cards offered > > for the 64-bit PCI, yet I've not seen even ONE advertised motherboard that > > actually supports 64-bit PCI. From what I've read, 32-bit PCI boards work in a > > 64-bit slot, yet nobody seems to be offering that feature in their > > advertisement. I'd guess that's because it's cheaper/easier to diverge slightly > > from the published standard in making these products, hence they don't make > > claims about compatibility. > > 64-bit PCI cards will work in a 32-bit PCI slot. I've got a four-port 64-bit > Ethernet card in a 32-bit PCI slot in one of my systems. > I really don't see how they could work, since the connector is not likely to fit. I recently had a peek at the standard for PCI, and I didn't seen any way in which this could work. > > As for motherboards with 64-bit PCI slots, there are several. First off, there > are several Alpha motherboards with 64-bit PCI slots. Then there are the boards > for the Pentium III processors with the Serverworks chipsets. There are also > motherboards for Athlon-MP processors with 64-bit PCI slots (some of which are > also 66MHz slots). I know there were earlier motherboards for Pentium II and > Xeon processors with 64-bit PCI slots, but they weren't advertised in the usual > places as they were more of a specialized board, but they were advertised in > some areas. > Since there apparently aren't any serious SCSI boards being made for 32-bit PCI any longer, and since most fibrechanel and firewire boards are 64-bit, I'd think it desirable to have most PCI mothers support the 64-bit PCI, which, according to what I've read so far, does support the 32-bit cards. If you want the 250+ MBPs transfer rates, no short PCI slot is going to handle that. The 10Gb ethernet will demand that the system process sustained, meaning for years and years, not just for bursts of a few hundred picoseconds, transfer rates of 10Gb/sec, and who knows what will come along after that. What's more, it's got to work faster than all that at the system level, since the traffic has to go somewhere and the responses have to come from somewhere as well. > ALPHA boards aren't relevant any longer, are they? > -- > Eric Dittman > dittman@dittman.net > Check out the DEC Enthusiasts Club at http://www.dittman.net/ > > From jhellige at earthlink.net Sun Oct 28 17:26:34 2001 From: jhellige at earthlink.net (Jeff Hellige) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:07 2005 Subject: Price guide for vintage computers In-Reply-To: <3BD99070.D99CB73C@ccp.com> References: <20011026043759.KCXT14515.imf04bis.bellsouth.net@thegoodw> <3BD99070.D99CB73C@ccp.com> Message-ID: >Maybe on the order of the Catalog of American Cars published by Old >Cars/Kruse. I'd like one just as a cruise down memory lane, when >computers were expensive, and the OS's were a challenge, not a mass of >newly invented bugs. Sorry, Billy . . . VERY informative book. Very nice breakdown of the various manufacturers broken further down by year and models. The prices listed didn't stay relevant long, but it's a great source of information. The classic computer hobby would benefit greatly from something similar. Jeff -- Home of the TRS-80 Model 2000 FAQ File http://www.cchaven.com http://www.geocities.com/siliconvalley/lakes/6757 From matt at knm.yi.org Wed Oct 24 17:01:52 2001 From: matt at knm.yi.org (Matt London) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:07 2005 Subject: QD21 ESDI Message-ID: Hi, I just got an Emulex QD21 (thanks iseldure! I've got $10 here for you for postage) and I've been playing with it, with some Maxtor XT-4380E drives. I'm managing alright to a point. I downloaded docs for the QD21, set dip switches and I can get into the controller's firmware. The problem arises when it comes to do things with the disks. If I tell the controller the disk is type 2, then it picks up settings from the drive fine (and they even co-relate with the drive), but any operations I perform on the drive after that (even "Show known devices") times out. I tried selecting the format option. If I set the drive as type 2 and let it pick up setting from the drive, it times out the operation before reading the media defect list. If I set the drive as type 1, and punch in the settings from the QD21 docs for the Maxtor XT-4380E, then it starts formatting, then after a couple of minutes of activity, the drive makes some noises (which I don't think sound healthy) then times out again. I only have one data cable, and if I just use the one drive (which appears to be terminated) then nothing appears to work - things just time out. If I hook up another drive and change drive IDs, then I can perform the format operation as defined above. Needless to say, I'm a little stumped. The controller is in an MV3300, but I've not got VMS working on there ATM, so I'm not sure about configuring an interupt vector for it. If it's any help to people, I can get listings from the console, it's just not particularly easy as I don't have a serial cable to hook the vax to my PC with me, only the vt420. I don't really know ESDI, and I'm not that familiar with QBus - only some details, ordering of cards, etc. Any thoughts welcome :&) --Matt From vance at ikickass.org Sun Oct 28 18:02:52 2001 From: vance at ikickass.org (One Without Reason) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:07 2005 Subject: Do we have a VAX organization? In-Reply-To: <3BDC528E.7040401@aurora.regenstrief.org> Message-ID: On Sun, 28 Oct 2001, Gunther Schadow wrote: > Hi, > > I usually hate organizational issues, but I think us VAX collectors > need at least a semi-formal organizaton. Why? > > - Most importantly this could help convince those that either > decomission or scrap VAX hardware to give it away instead. > (Yes, the last wave of decommissioned VAX 6000-600 and > 7000/10000 is coming up, plus the tail of older models that > might occasionally still be in use.) Also think of all the > overpriced DEC hardware suppliers who soon have to get rid > of their stocks that no business customer needs anymore. We would have to gain a lot of credibility as an organization, before we could do this. > - Second this would give one point where we could organize trades > and consolidate shipment issues ("VAX trecks") Well, I think this list does a lot of that. > - It could help us negotiate good truck rental rates. Penske has > perhaps the best rate you can get, but not everyone gets the best > rate (i.e. 10 cents per mile) because that's for business customers > only, normally. But usually with an organization (and a little ad > on the web-site) you can get good deals on vehicle rentals. We have to get free mileage. 8-) > And it goes on. > > - We could promote semi-public collections like little private museums > that some of us are building. This could be neat. Even those of us that use our collections for shits and grins could arrange for tours of our datacenters. > - Finally it could help in right out fundraising for covering such > expenses as electricity and internet connectivity for cyber- > museums and public use VAXen. Dues could be used for this purpose too. > We don't have to start all over but can take something that already > exists. (I'm also not looking to become a chairman of anything, > one of the typical incentives for people suggesting new organizations :-) > For example, I think this can start with a web site. Some of us already > have vax related domain names which we can use, like Isildur's > vaxpower.org. So, a www.vaxpower.org could be it. There's also the > VAX rescue squad, put in my several futile attempts to sign up > I realized that this project seems rather dead. I don't know if this > should be anything tightly connected with DECUS, because DECUS is > (a) too COMPAQ or whatever.com oriented, (b) too VMS oriented, and > (c) seems to have too much overhead (organizational structure, > membership fees, unrelated agenda items). But I could be wrong > about that. I don't think it should be too tightly paired with DECUS, but for a different reason. A lot of DECUS isn't hobbyists. > Another question is if this should not be a DEC/VAX only group > but rather a vintage computer stuff group, like Sellam Ismail's > site. May be this could be it. What's important is that this site > would help accomplish above-mentioned goals, and that it would > be a showcase of our VAX collections and simply an address book > of the kind that the VAX rescue squad wanted to be. Something you > can point to when negotiating with a source. A network of friends > you can call up and ask for help in rescuing someting in an > otherwise remote area. Also a set of rules of conduct dealing with > shared hauls, (like what if: you agree to help with a haul from > a friend accross the country and agree on keeping certain things, > but suddenly a PDP-8 shows up in that lot? These are things that > could help maintain friendship and integrity and reduce grief.) This sounds good. I might even be able to scrape some warehouse space together in case a situation like the following came up: Suppose you got a big load of stuff, and the guy offers to throw in a whole load more stuff in for free, but you don't have the room. He wants the answer right away, so this warehouse sits there as temporary storage for you, so you can feel free to say yes. Then anyone who belongs to the organization who wants the hardware can take it. 8-) Peace... Sridhar > So, what do you think? From jhellige at earthlink.net Sun Oct 28 18:03:04 2001 From: jhellige at earthlink.net (Jeff Hellige) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:07 2005 Subject: email/browser for DOS or C64/128? In-Reply-To: <002f01c15f6f$36900020$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> References: <753.701T2150T1806243optimus@canit.se> <002f01c15f6f$36900020$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> Message-ID: >Which CPU does this use? The COMMODOREs of that era had both the Z80 and the >65xx, didn't they? Only the C-128 had both CPU's. Jeff -- Home of the TRS-80 Model 2000 FAQ File http://www.cchaven.com http://www.geocities.com/siliconvalley/lakes/6757 From jrkeys at concentric.net Sun Oct 28 18:20:35 2001 From: jrkeys at concentric.net (John R. Keys Jr.) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:07 2005 Subject: OT: Playstation 2 opinion? References: <4.1.20011027132940.00baa100@206.231.8.2> <3BDC5119.5B61F477@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <004801c1600f$88a3d9e0$41721fd1@default> I watch rental DVD movies with mine all the time, just watched 2 movies tonight. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Ben Franchuk" To: Sent: Sunday, October 28, 2001 12:40 PM Subject: Re: OT: Playstation 2 opinion? > Christian Fandt wrote: > > Bev understands DVD's can be played on the PS 2 unit. Are these movie DVD's > > they're talking about? Audio DVD's? How is the playback quality? Comparable > > to an average DVD player? > > One word of warning with DVD's. Most DVD's are wide screen so > you may want to consider that > if you are viewing on a small TV. Ben. > -- > Standard Disclaimer : 97% speculation 2% bad grammar 1% facts. > "Pre-historic Cpu's" http://www.jetnet.ab.ca/users/bfranchuk > Now with schematics. > From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Sun Oct 28 15:58:45 2001 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (Ben Franchuk) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:07 2005 Subject: Price guide for vintage computers References: <20011026043759.KCXT14515.imf04bis.bellsouth.net@thegoodw> <3BD99070.D99CB73C@ccp.com> Message-ID: <3BDC7F95.A99883A4@jetnet.ab.ca> > VERY informative book. Very nice breakdown of the various > manufacturers broken further down by year and models. The prices > listed didn't stay relevant long, but it's a great source of > information. The classic computer hobby would benefit greatly from > something similar. Another problem is where to get software. A $5 Apple II found at local thrift shop or newer computer often are found missing the critical software need to boot. Printed DOC's and schematics for repair are gone. With out this that sadly most good old computers just end in the dumpster. -- Standard Disclaimer : 97% speculation 2% bad grammar 1% facts. "Pre-historic Cpu's" http://www.jetnet.ab.ca/users/bfranchuk Now with schematics. From jhellige at earthlink.net Sun Oct 28 18:13:06 2001 From: jhellige at earthlink.net (Jeff Hellige) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:07 2005 Subject: VLB SCSI? In-Reply-To: <200110281952.f9SJqOP16836@narnia.int.dittman.net> References: <200110281952.f9SJqOP16836@narnia.int.dittman.net> Message-ID: >As for motherboards with 64-bit PCI slots, there are several. First >off, there >are several Alpha motherboards with 64-bit PCI slots. Then there >are the boards >for the Pentium III processors with the Serverworks chipsets. There are also >motherboards for Athlon-MP processors with 64-bit PCI slots (some of which are >also 66MHz slots). I know there were earlier motherboards for Pentium II and >Xeon processors with 64-bit PCI slots, but they weren't advertised >in the usual >places as they were more of a specialized board, but they were advertised in >some areas. The newer non-AGP PowerMac's have a 64bit PCI slot as well. It's generally the slot in which the video card resides. Jeff -- Home of the TRS-80 Model 2000 FAQ File http://www.cchaven.com http://www.geocities.com/siliconvalley/lakes/6757 From jpero at sympatico.ca Sun Oct 28 13:17:31 2001 From: jpero at sympatico.ca (jpero@sympatico.ca) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:07 2005 Subject: VLB SCSI? In-Reply-To: <200110281952.f9SJqOP16836@narnia.int.dittman.net> References: <000901c15fe5$0f6dfb20$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> from "Richard Erlacher" at Oct 28, 2001 12:16:34 PM Message-ID: <20011029001520.XBHZ10438.tomts12-srv.bellnexxia.net@duron> > As for motherboards with 64-bit PCI slots, there are several. First off, there > are several Alpha motherboards with 64-bit PCI slots. Then there are the boards > for the Pentium III processors with the Serverworks chipsets. There are also > motherboards for Athlon-MP processors with 64-bit PCI slots (some of which are > also 66MHz slots). I know there were earlier motherboards for Pentium II and > Xeon processors with 64-bit PCI slots, but they weren't advertised in the usual > places as they were more of a specialized board, but they were advertised in > some areas. > -- > Eric Dittman > dittman@dittman.net > Check out the DEC Enthusiasts Club at http://www.dittman.net/ Forgot to add Apple is selling some of Macs series w/ 66MHz PCI and some of them do have 64bit PCI. Cheers, Wizard From jhellige at earthlink.net Sun Oct 28 18:25:54 2001 From: jhellige at earthlink.net (Jeff Hellige) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:07 2005 Subject: Price guide for vintage computers In-Reply-To: <3BDC7F95.A99883A4@jetnet.ab.ca> References: <20011026043759.KCXT14515.imf04bis.bellsouth.net@thegoodw> <3BD99070.D99CB73C@ccp.com> <3BDC7F95.A99883A4@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: >Another problem is where to get software. A $5 Apple II found at >local thrift shop >or newer computer often are found missing the critical software >need to boot. Printed DOC's and schematics for repair are gone. >With out this that sadly most good old computers just end in the >dumpster. Thrift stores tend to do worse than that. The ones I've frequented tend to seperate things as much as possible so you're likely to find a CPU and then have a bear of a time getting the sometimes proprietary keyboard and such that went with it. That was my problem with both an Altos III terminal and IBM 8573-121. Jeff -- Home of the TRS-80 Model 2000 FAQ File http://www.cchaven.com http://www.geocities.com/siliconvalley/lakes/6757 From jhellige at earthlink.net Sun Oct 28 18:31:46 2001 From: jhellige at earthlink.net (Jeff Hellige) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:07 2005 Subject: VLB SCSI? In-Reply-To: References: <200110281952.f9SJqOP16836@narnia.int.dittman.net> Message-ID: >>As for motherboards with 64-bit PCI slots, there are several. >>First off, there >>are several Alpha motherboards with 64-bit PCI slots. Then there >>are the boards >>for the Pentium III processors with the Serverworks chipsets. There are also >>motherboards for Athlon-MP processors with 64-bit PCI slots (some >>of which are >>also 66MHz slots). I know there were earlier motherboards for Pentium II and >>Xeon processors with 64-bit PCI slots, but they weren't advertised >>in the usual >>places as they were more of a specialized board, but they were advertised in >>some areas. > > The newer non-AGP PowerMac's have a 64bit PCI slot as well. >It's generally the slot in which the video card resides. Geez...disregard the above as I was a bit quick on the send button! Too many hours driving today. Anyway, 3 of the 4 PCI slots in the non-AGP PowerMac's made since the Bllue&White are 64bit. The first slot, which the video card normally resides in and in which it is required to reside in for DVD playback, is a 32bit slot which operates at 66mhz while the other 3 are 64bit and operate at 33mhz though they also support 32bit cards at 33mhz. Jeff -- Home of the TRS-80 Model 2000 FAQ File http://www.cchaven.com http://www.geocities.com/siliconvalley/lakes/6757 From dittman at dittman.net Sun Oct 28 18:34:59 2001 From: dittman at dittman.net (Eric Dittman) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:07 2005 Subject: VLB SCSI? In-Reply-To: <002b01c16003$f0d761a0$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> from "Richard Erlacher" at Oct 28, 2001 03:57:38 PM Message-ID: <200110290034.f9T0Yxi17543@narnia.int.dittman.net> > > 64-bit PCI cards will work in a 32-bit PCI slot. I've got a four-port 64-bit > > Ethernet card in a 32-bit PCI slot in one of my systems. > > > I really don't see how they could work, since the connector is not likely to > fit. I recently had a peek at the standard for PCI, and I didn't seen any way > in which this could work. They have been designed from the start to be forward- and backward- compatible. The 64-bit has a slot where the end of the 32-bit connector is located, and the correct connector does not have a wide end. All the 32-bit connectors I've seen have been the correct size (and I've seen a lot of them). A 64-bit PCI card in a 32-bit slot steps down to 32-bit transfers. A 66MHz card in a 33MHz slot steps down to 33MHz. > Since there apparently aren't any serious SCSI boards being made for 32-bit PCI > any longer, and since most fibrechanel and firewire boards are 64-bit, I'd think > it desirable to have most PCI mothers support the 64-bit PCI, which, according > to what I've read so far, does support the 32-bit cards. If you want the 250+ > MBPs transfer rates, no short PCI slot is going to handle that. The 10Gb > ethernet will demand that the system process sustained, meaning for years and > years, not just for bursts of a few hundred picoseconds, transfer rates of > 10Gb/sec, and who knows what will come along after that. What's more, it's got > to work faster than all that at the system level, since the traffic has to go > somewhere and the responses have to come from somewhere as well. I've seen 32-bit FC and firewire cards. I've seen FC cards that come in both 32- and 64-bit configurations, although the 32-bit cards I've seen look like they are the 64-bit version with only a 32-bit edge connector. I've never seen a 64-bit firewire card. > ALPHA boards aren't relevant any longer, are they? I think so. The Alpha will be around for a while, with EV7 on the way, despite what some people think. Compaq announced the Alpha would be winding down, not stopping dead in its tracks. -- Eric Dittman dittman@dittman.net Check out the DEC Enthusiasts Club at http://www.dittman.net/ From dittman at dittman.net Sun Oct 28 18:36:14 2001 From: dittman at dittman.net (Eric Dittman) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:07 2005 Subject: Do we have a VAX organization? In-Reply-To: <000101c16003$5464b8e0$6501a8c0@fred> from "Fred deBros" at Oct 28, 2001 05:53:13 PM Message-ID: <200110290036.f9T0aEV17551@narnia.int.dittman.net> > Well, I already have the DEC Enthusiasts Club board set up. We > could use that for discussions. It isn't really that active > right now, but that can change if we start to use it more. I > have discussion and for sale/trade boards already set up and > working. > -- > Eric Dittman > dittman@dittman.net > Check out the DEC Enthusiasts Club at http://www.dittman.net/ > > This is a very well done site and I only regret that it is not linked to > netbsd-vax and linux-vax.And vice versa. It should also link to chuck's > excellent site. > The disappointing sites are Compaq, decus and freevms. > A little brush-up and we have a very fine Dachorganisation for vax > collectors. I will add the links to any sites that people feel are appropriate to my site. I'm also going to register a domain name that will be pointed directly to the site. -- Eric Dittman dittman@dittman.net Check out the DEC Enthusiasts Club at http://www.dittman.net/ From edick at idcomm.com Sun Oct 28 18:41:15 2001 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:07 2005 Subject: VLB SCSI? References: <200110281952.f9SJqOP16836@narnia.int.dittman.net> Message-ID: <001301c16012$6acbbf20$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> Gee! I hadn't considered that Apple might be using that. Dick ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jeff Hellige" To: Sent: Sunday, October 28, 2001 5:13 PM Subject: Re: VLB SCSI? > >As for motherboards with 64-bit PCI slots, there are several. First > >off, there > >are several Alpha motherboards with 64-bit PCI slots. Then there > >are the boards > >for the Pentium III processors with the Serverworks chipsets. There are also > >motherboards for Athlon-MP processors with 64-bit PCI slots (some of which are > >also 66MHz slots). I know there were earlier motherboards for Pentium II and > >Xeon processors with 64-bit PCI slots, but they weren't advertised > >in the usual > >places as they were more of a specialized board, but they were advertised in > >some areas. > > The newer non-AGP PowerMac's have a 64bit PCI slot as well. > It's generally the slot in which the video card resides. > > Jeff > -- > Home of the TRS-80 Model 2000 FAQ File > http://www.cchaven.com > http://www.geocities.com/siliconvalley/lakes/6757 > > From edick at idcomm.com Sun Oct 28 18:41:43 2001 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:07 2005 Subject: email/browser for DOS or C64/128? References: <753.701T2150T1806243optimus@canit.se> <002f01c15f6f$36900020$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> Message-ID: <001901c16012$7b7f4260$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> Yes, but WHICH CPU runs the IP stack? Dick ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jeff Hellige" To: Sent: Sunday, October 28, 2001 5:03 PM Subject: Re: email/browser for DOS or C64/128? > >Which CPU does this use? The COMMODOREs of that era had both the Z80 and the > >65xx, didn't they? > > Only the C-128 had both CPU's. > > Jeff > -- > Home of the TRS-80 Model 2000 FAQ File > http://www.cchaven.com > http://www.geocities.com/siliconvalley/lakes/6757 > > From edick at idcomm.com Sun Oct 28 18:49:12 2001 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:07 2005 Subject: Price guide for vintage computers References: <20011026043759.KCXT14515.imf04bis.bellsouth.net@thegoodw> <3BD99070.D99CB73C@ccp.com> <3BDC7F95.A99883A4@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <002c01c16013$873ab020$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> I've frequently found different parts, obviously of the same computer, at different stores of the same thrift chain. That's why I always look askance at computers with a price tag above $10, even when they appear to be complete. The peripherals are often a much better buy at prices above $5. As for Apple][ software, I doubt there's any that you can't get for free. The most expensive Apple software I've bought in the past decade has been a box of diskettes with the OS and a couple of programs, costing $3. Dick ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jeff Hellige" To: Sent: Sunday, October 28, 2001 5:25 PM Subject: Re: Price guide for vintage computers > >Another problem is where to get software. A $5 Apple II found at > >local thrift shop or newer computer often are found missing the > >critical software need to boot. Printed DOC's and schematics for . > >repair are gone. Without that, sadly, most good old computers > >just end in the dumpster. > > Thrift stores tend to do worse than that. The ones I've > frequented tend to seperate things as much as possible so you're > likely to find a CPU and then have a bear of a time getting the > sometimes proprietary keyboard and such that went with it. That was > my problem with both an Altos III terminal and IBM 8573-121. > > > Jeff > -- > Home of the TRS-80 Model 2000 FAQ File > http://www.cchaven.com > http://www.geocities.com/siliconvalley/lakes/6757 > > From optimus at canit.se Sun Oct 28 18:35:35 2001 From: optimus at canit.se (Iggy Drougge) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:07 2005 Subject: Collection Database - was Re: Price guide for vintage computers In-Reply-To: <1004306367.2427.3.camel@minerva> Message-ID: <493.702T1750T955827optimus@canit.se> David Williams skrev: >I too would be interested in hearing what others have/use for this. >I've recently had to move my whole collection and I'm taking the chance >to inventory everthing and would like to set up a nice DB for it all. Tabulated ascii files. Not very advanced, no fancy sorting or cataloguing features, but very portable and very managable with a simple text editor. =) -- En ligne avec Thor 2.6a. Amiga 4000/040 25MHz/64MB/20GB RetinaBLTZ3/VLab/FastlaneZ3/Ariadne/Toccata From vance at ikickass.org Sun Oct 28 18:52:03 2001 From: vance at ikickass.org (One Without Reason) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:07 2005 Subject: OT: Playstation 2 opinion? In-Reply-To: <004801c1600f$88a3d9e0$41721fd1@default> Message-ID: But you get it letterboxed. Peace... Sridhar On Sun, 28 Oct 2001, John R. Keys Jr. wrote: > I watch rental DVD movies with mine all the time, just watched 2 movies > tonight. > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Ben Franchuk" > To: > Sent: Sunday, October 28, 2001 12:40 PM > Subject: Re: OT: Playstation 2 opinion? > > > > Christian Fandt wrote: > > > Bev understands DVD's can be played on the PS 2 unit. Are these > movie DVD's > > > they're talking about? Audio DVD's? How is the playback quality? > Comparable > > > to an average DVD player? > > > > One word of warning with DVD's. Most DVD's are wide screen so > > you may want to consider that > > if you are viewing on a small TV. Ben. > > -- > > Standard Disclaimer : 97% speculation 2% bad grammar 1% facts. > > "Pre-historic Cpu's" http://www.jetnet.ab.ca/users/bfranchuk > > Now with schematics. > > > From edick at idcomm.com Sun Oct 28 19:01:33 2001 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:07 2005 Subject: VLB SCSI? References: <200110290034.f9T0Yxi17543@narnia.int.dittman.net> Message-ID: <003401c16015$40edf1c0$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> Plz see comments inline below. Dick ----- Original Message ----- From: "Eric Dittman" To: Sent: Sunday, October 28, 2001 5:34 PM Subject: Re: VLB SCSI? > > > 64-bit PCI cards will work in a 32-bit PCI slot. I've got a four-port 64-bit > > > Ethernet card in a 32-bit PCI slot in one of my systems. > > > > > I really don't see how they could work, since the connector is not likely to > > fit. I recently had a peek at the standard for PCI, and I didn't seen any way > > in which this could work. > > They have been designed from the start to be forward- and backward- compatible. > The 64-bit has a slot where the end of the 32-bit connector is located, and the > correct connector does not have a wide end. All the 32-bit connectors I've seen > have been the correct size (and I've seen a lot of them). A 64-bit PCI card in > a 32-bit slot steps down to 32-bit transfers. A 66MHz card in a 33MHz slot steps > down to 33MHz. > That wouldn't work too well when you need 99% of the bandwidth. The few 64-bit cards I've seen up close don't seem to have a wide enough slit to allow them to be plugged into a short PCI slot. The standard references to features such as this one seemed quite iffy. I wish I could justify a current copy of the standard. I just returned one to the local library, which had to get it on ILL. > > > Since there apparently aren't any serious SCSI boards being made for 32-bit PCI > > any longer, and since most fibrechanel and firewire boards are 64-bit, I'd think > > it desirable to have most PCI mothers support the 64-bit PCI, which, according > > to what I've read so far, does support the 32-bit cards. If you want the 250+ > > MBPs transfer rates, no short PCI slot is going to handle that. The 10Gb > > ethernet will demand that the system process sustained, meaning for years and > > years, not just for bursts of a few hundred picoseconds, transfer rates of > > 10Gb/sec, and who knows what will come along after that. What's more, it's got > > to work faster than all that at the system level, since the traffic has to go > > somewhere and the responses have to come from somewhere as well. > > I've seen 32-bit FC and firewire cards. I've seen FC cards that come in both > 32- and 64-bit configurations, although the 32-bit cards I've seen look like > they are the 64-bit version with only a 32-bit edge connector. > > I've never seen a 64-bit firewire card. > Perhaps that one wasn't firewire, but it was ADAPTEC. The FC is what has me buzzed up right now and I've seen no 64-bit slots in motherboards offered recently. I hadn't even considered an Apple product, and it may take a while for me to accept that notion. I've certainly never seen a high-bandwidth card of any sort for sale that wasn't a 64-bit card. The abundance of 64-bit cards against the dearth of motherboards with 64-bit PCI slots is what I've been focusing on. Surely ADAPTEC and others are selling their products into something with full 64-bit capacity. > > > ALPHA boards aren't relevant any longer, are they? > > I think so. The Alpha will be around for a while, with EV7 on the way, despite > what some people think. Compaq announced the Alpha would be winding down, not > stopping dead in its tracks. > Yes, but they're controlled by someone else, now, and they're a fickle master. I'd put no faith in that statement at all. > -- > Eric Dittman > dittman@dittman.net > Check out the DEC Enthusiasts Club at http://www.dittman.net/ > > From jhellige at earthlink.net Sun Oct 28 19:02:03 2001 From: jhellige at earthlink.net (Jeff Hellige) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:07 2005 Subject: email/browser for DOS or C64/128? In-Reply-To: <001901c16012$7b7f4260$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> References: <753.701T2150T1806243optimus@canit.se> <002f01c15f6f$36900020$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> <001901c16012$7b7f4260$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> Message-ID: Since in the C-128 the CPU's don't operate concurrently, I'd say it would be the 65XX/85XX series chip since otherwise you'd have to boot into C-128 CP/M+ in order to use the Z80. Also if the IP stack was usable on the C-64 it'd have to be using the 65xx/85xx series chiop since the C-64 doesn't have a Z80, not counting the one installed in the C64's CP/M cartridge. Jeff >Yes, but WHICH CPU runs the IP stack? > >Dick > >----- Original Message ----- >From: "Jeff Hellige" >To: >Sent: Sunday, October 28, 2001 5:03 PM >Subject: Re: email/browser for DOS or C64/128? > > >> >Which CPU does this use? The COMMODOREs of that era had both the >>Z80 and the >> >65xx, didn't they? >> > > Only the C-128 had both CPU's. -- Home of the TRS-80 Model 2000 FAQ File http://www.cchaven.com http://www.geocities.com/siliconvalley/lakes/6757 From edick at idcomm.com Sun Oct 28 19:09:35 2001 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:07 2005 Subject: OT: high bandwidth internet References: <200110281952.f9SJqOP16836@narnia.int.dittman.net> Message-ID: <004501c16016$600b8800$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> I finally caught up with my neighbor and he tells me that his microwave-based internet service is with Sprint Broadband. He also tells me they're shaky and not accepting any new subscribers. He's had some rough luck with his choice of CPU's, etc. He's got several ALPHA boxes that apparently don't work with teh OS he wanted to use, and this wasn't the first time he was left high and dry by a CPU maker after making a significant investment. Anyway, such as it is ... there you have it. Dick From greg at cosc.canterbury.ac.nz Sun Oct 28 19:24:12 2001 From: greg at cosc.canterbury.ac.nz (Greg Ewing) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:07 2005 Subject: [OT] New toy... In-Reply-To: <10110272338.ZM23940@mindy.dunnington.u-net.com> Message-ID: <200110290124.OAA09126@s454.cosc.canterbury.ac.nz> John Lawson: > FB OM YR SIGS 599 RPT 599 QSL VIA BURO TNX ES 73 DE KB6SCO pete@dunnington.u-net.com (Pete Turnbull): > It's (mostly standard) radio ham CW (continuous wave) abbreviations, used > to save keying too much morse. To those dismayed at the mangulations of language being used by some people in email these days, this just goes to show that there's nothing new under the sun. :-) Greg Ewing, Computer Science Dept, +--------------------------------------+ University of Canterbury, | A citizen of NewZealandCorp, a | Christchurch, New Zealand | wholly-owned subsidiary of USA Inc. | greg@cosc.canterbury.ac.nz +--------------------------------------+ From edick at idcomm.com Sun Oct 28 19:33:01 2001 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:07 2005 Subject: email/browser for DOS or C64/128? References: <753.701T2150T1806243optimus@canit.se> <002f01c15f6f$36900020$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> <001901c16012$7b7f4260$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> Message-ID: <000701c16019$a5e9dae0$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> Interesting ... Is the source for this IP implementation available anywhere? I'd be interested in having a peek. Dick ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jeff Hellige" To: Sent: Sunday, October 28, 2001 6:02 PM Subject: Re: email/browser for DOS or C64/128? > Since in the C-128 the CPU's don't operate concurrently, I'd > say it would be the 65XX/85XX series chip since otherwise you'd have > to boot into C-128 CP/M+ in order to use the Z80. Also if the IP > stack was usable on the C-64 it'd have to be using the 65xx/85xx > series chiop since the C-64 doesn't have a Z80, not counting the one > installed in the C64's CP/M cartridge. > > Jeff > > >Yes, but WHICH CPU runs the IP stack? > > > >Dick > > > >----- Original Message ----- > >From: "Jeff Hellige" > >To: > >Sent: Sunday, October 28, 2001 5:03 PM > >Subject: Re: email/browser for DOS or C64/128? > > > > > >> >Which CPU does this use? The COMMODOREs of that era had both the > >>Z80 and the > >> >65xx, didn't they? > >> > > > Only the C-128 had both CPU's. > -- > Home of the TRS-80 Model 2000 FAQ File > http://www.cchaven.com > http://www.geocities.com/siliconvalley/lakes/6757 > > From rhblakeman at kih.net Sun Oct 28 19:33:09 2001 From: rhblakeman at kih.net (Russ Blakeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:07 2005 Subject: email/browser for DOS or C64/128? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: 128 and 128D to be exact. I love the 128D, too bad Commodore waited so long to finally get it right. -> -----Original Message----- -> From: owner-classiccmp@classiccmp.org -> [mailto:owner-classiccmp@classiccmp.org]On Behalf Of Jeff Hellige -> Sent: Sunday, October 28, 2001 6:03 PM -> To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org -> Subject: Re: email/browser for DOS or C64/128? -> -> -> >Which CPU does this use? The COMMODOREs of that era had both -> the Z80 and the -> >65xx, didn't they? -> -> Only the C-128 had both CPU's. -> -> Jeff -> -- -> Home of the TRS-80 Model 2000 FAQ File -> http://www.cchaven.com -> http://www.geocities.com/siliconvalley/lakes/6757 -> -> From jhellige at earthlink.net Sun Oct 28 19:51:04 2001 From: jhellige at earthlink.net (Jeff Hellige) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:07 2005 Subject: email/browser for DOS or C64/128? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: >128 and 128D to be exact. I love the 128D, too bad Commodore waited so long >to finally get it right. I tend to use 'C-128' to refer to either of them, though the 128D is different in some respects. I don't believe there's much, if anything, that requires one over the other. I also like the 128D but have often wondered why they used such a hefty connector for the keyboard. Jeff -- Home of the TRS-80 Model 2000 FAQ File http://www.cchaven.com http://www.geocities.com/siliconvalley/lakes/6757 From dpeschel at eskimo.com Sun Oct 28 19:56:57 2001 From: dpeschel at eskimo.com (Derek Peschel) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:07 2005 Subject: [OT] New toy... In-Reply-To: <200110290124.OAA09126@s454.cosc.canterbury.ac.nz>; from greg@cosc.canterbury.ac.nz on Mon, Oct 29, 2001 at 02:24:12PM +1300 References: <10110272338.ZM23940@mindy.dunnington.u-net.com> <200110290124.OAA09126@s454.cosc.canterbury.ac.nz> Message-ID: <20011028175657.B2464@eskimo.eskimo.com> On Mon, Oct 29, 2001 at 02:24:12PM +1300, Greg Ewing wrote: > John Lawson: > > > FB OM YR SIGS 599 RPT 599 QSL VIA BURO TNX ES 73 DE KB6SCO > > pete@dunnington.u-net.com (Pete Turnbull): > > > It's (mostly standard) radio ham CW (continuous wave) abbreviations, used > > to save keying too much morse. > > To those dismayed at the mangulations of language being > used by some people in email these days, this just goes > to show that there's nothing new under the sun. :-) What I didn't know (until a Canadian guy at my ex-workplace explained it to me) was that many of these abbreviations are French in origin. ("DE") That especially applies to the combined letter groups ("AR" with no space in between = "end of message" = "arret", for example). This is not true of all abbreviations, of course. "FB" = "fine business" (I know that only because I was looking for info on printing telegraphs and stock tickers and found an old ARRL Handbook). -- Derek From gunther at aurora.regenstrief.org Sun Oct 28 20:23:00 2001 From: gunther at aurora.regenstrief.org (Gunther Schadow) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:07 2005 Subject: first step getting VAX 6000-400 booted ... References: <3820E2042B6ED5118DC200D0B78EDC470661CD@exc-reo1> <3BDC49AC.9030508@aurora.regenstrief.org> Message-ID: <3BDCBD84.90205@aurora.regenstrief.org> Gunther Schadow wrote: > Carlini, Antonio wrote: > > AFAIK, *all* SDI cables are the same. Even never > > works, odd works if everything else is right. Yipeee! It works! And the even number of SDI cables was the problem. Watch for yourself: >>> BOOT /XMI:B DU1 Initializing system. #123456789 0123456789 0123456789 01234567# F E D C B A 9 8 7 6 5 4 3 2 1 0 NODE # A A . A M M M M P P P P P P TYP o o . + + + + + + + + + + + STF . . . . . . . . E E E E E B BPD . . . . . . . . + + + + + + ETF . . . . . . . . E E E E E B BPD . . . . . . . . . + . . + + + . XBI D + . . . . . . . . . + . . + . + . XBI E + . . . . A4 A3 A2 A1 . . . . . . ILV . . . . 128 128 128 128 . . . . . . 512 Mb ROM0 = V4.00 ROM1 = V4.00 EEPROM = 2.03/4.02 SN = AG94408887 Loading system software. VAX/VMS Version V5.4 Major version id = 1 Minor version id = 0 %%%%%%%%%%% SYSLOA 1-JAN-1990 00:00:00.01 %%%%%%%%%%% EEPROM VMS data area written by XRP @ 21880000 PLEASE ENTER DATE AND TIME (DD-MMM-YYYY HH:MM) 28-OCT-2001 18:35 $! Copyright (c) 1990 Digital Equipment Corporation. All rights reserved. %%%%%%%%%%% SYSLOA 28-OCT-2001 18:35:50.23 %%%%%%%%%%% EEPROM VMS data area written by XRP @ 21B00000 %%%%%%%%%%% SYSLOA 28-OCT-2001 18:35:50.35 %%%%%%%%%%% EEPROM VMS data area written by XRP @ 21A80000 %SMP-I-CPUBOOTED, CPU #06 has joined the PRIMARY CPU in multiprocessor operation %SMP-I-CPUBOOTED, CPU #05 has joined the PRIMARY CPU in multiprocessor operation %SMP-I-CPUBOOTED, CPU #04 has joined the PRIMARY CPU in multiprocessor operation %SMP-I-CPUBOOTED, CPU #03 has joined the PRIMARY CPU in multiprocessor operation %SMP-I-CPUBOOTED, CPU #02 has joined the PRIMARY CPU in multiprocessor operation %%%%%%%%%%% SYSLOA 28-OCT-2001 18:35:50.47 %%%%%%%%%%% EEPROM VMS data area written by XRP @ 21A00000 %%%%%%%%%%% SYSLOA 28-OCT-2001 18:35:51.06 %%%%%%%%%%% EEPROM VMS data area written by XRP @ 21980000 %%%%%%%%%%% SYSLOA 28-OCT-2001 18:35:51.18 %%%%%%%%%%% EEPROM VMS data area written by XRP @ 21900000 %SET-I-NEWAUDSRV, identification of new audit server process is 00000089 %LICENSE-W-NOLOAD, license was not loaded for BASIC -LICENSE-F-EXCEEDED, attempted usage exceeds active license limits %LICENSE-E-TERM, CDD-PLUS ATS-ZK-89335-156 License has terminated %LICENSE-W-NOLOAD, license was not loaded for CDD-PLUS -LICENSE-F-EXCEEDED, attempted usage exceeds active license limits %LICENSE-W-NOLOAD, license was not loaded for COBOL -LICENSE-F-EXCEEDED, attempted usage exceeds active license limits %LICENSE-W-NOLOAD, license was not loaded for DTR -LICENSE-F-EXCEEDED, attempted usage exceeds active license limits %LICENSE-W-NOLOAD, license was not loaded for DVNETEND -LICENSE-F-EXCEEDED, attempted usage exceeds active license limits %LICENSE-E-TERM, FMS ATS-ZK-89335-326 License has terminated %LICENSE-W-NOLOAD, license was not loaded for FMS -LICENSE-F-EXCEEDED, attempted usage exceeds active license limits %LICENSE-W-NOLOAD, license was not loaded for VAX-VMS -LICENSE-F-EXCEEDED, attempted usage exceeds active license limits %%%%%%%%%%% OPCOM 28-OCT-2001 18:36:17.27 %%%%%%%%%%% Operator _OPA0: has been enabled, username SYSTEM %%%%%%%%%%% OPCOM 28-OCT-2001 18:36:17.50 %%%%%%%%%%% Operator status for operator _OPA0: CENTRAL, PRINTER, TAPES, DISKS, DEVICES, CARDS, NETWORK, CLUSTER, SECURITY, LICENSE, OPER1, OPER2, OPER3, OPER4, OPER5, OPER6, OPER7, OPER8, OPER9, OPER10, OPER11, OPER12 %%%%%%%%%%% OPCOM 28-OCT-2001 18:36:18.33 %%%%%%%%%%% Logfile has been initialized by operator _OPA0: Logfile is SYS$SYSROOT:[SYSMGR]OPERATOR.LOG;176 %%%%%%%%%%% OPCOM 28-OCT-2001 18:36:18.34 %%%%%%%%%%% Operator status for operator SYS$SYSROOT:[SYSMGR]OPERATOR.LOG;176 CENTRAL, PRINTER, TAPES, DISKS, DEVICES, CARDS, NETWORK, CLUSTER, SECURITY, LICENSE, OPER1, OPER2, OPER3, OPER4, OPER5, OPER6, OPER7, OPER8, OPER9, OPER10, OPER11, OPER12 %LICENSE-E-NOAUTH, DEC VAX-VMS use is not authorized on this node %%%%%%%%%%% OPCOM 28-OCT-2001 18:36:18.80 %%%%%%%%%%% Message from user SYSTEM %LICENSE-E-NOAUTH, DEC VAX-VMS use is not authorized on this node -LICENSE-F-NOLICENSE, no license is active for this software product -LICENSE-I-SYSMGR, please see your system manager -LICENSE-F-NOLICENSE, no license is active for this software product -LICENSE-I-SYSMGR, please see your system manager Startup processing continuing... Site specific startup commands Enabling Accounting Purging logfiles Mounting disks %MOUNT-F-DEVMOUNT, device is already mounted %SET-I-INTSET, login interactive limit = 96, current interactive value = 0 28-OCT-2001 18:36:22 %DECW-I-WAITNET, DECwindows waiting for DECnet to start %DECW-F-NODECNET, DECwindows cannot start without DECnet SYSTEM job terminated at 28-OCT-2001 18:38:25.89 Accounting information: Buffered I/O count: 1021 Peak working set size: 732 Direct I/O count: 528 Peak page file size: 3543 Page faults: 4224 Mounted volumes: 0 Charged CPU time: 0 00:00:13.71 Elapsed time: 0 00:02:46.64 Username: Username: Username: Username: Username: Username: Username: MYSELF Password: User authorization failure %%%%%%%%%%% OPCOM 28-OCT-2001 18:43:52.51 %%%%%%%%%%% Message from user AUDIT$SERVER Security alarm (SECURITY) and security audit (SECURITY) on , system id: 65534 Auditable event: Local interactive login failure Event time: 28-OCT-2001 18:43:52.48 PID: 0000008F Username: Terminal name: _OPA0: Status: %LOGIN-F-NOSUCHUSER, no such user more later ... -Gunther -- Gunther Schadow, M.D., Ph.D. gschadow@regenstrief.org Medical Information Scientist Regenstrief Institute for Health Care Adjunct Assistant Professor Indiana University School of Medicine tel:1(317)630-7960 http://aurora.regenstrief.org From ernestls at home.com Sun Oct 28 20:28:51 2001 From: ernestls at home.com (Ernest) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:08 2005 Subject: Price guide for vintage computers In-Reply-To: <002c01c16013$873ab020$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> Message-ID: Has anyone considered that creating a price guide might do more harm than good. What do you think that thrift shops (for example) would do if they had a price guide? Jack their prices up to match most likely, on items that they might have sold for less if they didn't know better. I guess my point is that having a price guide available online might lead to higher prices. I was able to buy a valiant turtle robot for a fraction of what it was worth because the seller had no idea of it's value. Every collector has similar stories, and while those things would still happen from time to time, a price guide would certainly reduce the chances -especially with software. If the price guide lists certain things as rare and more valueable, then the seller will likely jack up his asking price. On the other hand, what if the seller had no idea? The chances are better for collectors to get a "good" deal. It's just something to consider. E. From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Sun Oct 28 20:32:12 2001 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (ajp166) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:08 2005 Subject: [OT] New toy... Message-ID: <004e01c16022$5819e090$63f09a8d@ajp166> An aside and definatly OTis a lot of that found its way into RTTY and a lot of those old M15s and ASR33s printed it. Allison -----Original Message----- From: Greg Ewing To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org Date: Sunday, October 28, 2001 8:43 PM Subject: Re: [OT] New toy... >John Lawson: > >> FB OM YR SIGS 599 RPT 599 QSL VIA BURO TNX ES 73 DE KB6SCO > >pete@dunnington.u-net.com (Pete Turnbull): > >> It's (mostly standard) radio ham CW (continuous wave) abbreviations, used >> to save keying too much morse. > >To those dismayed at the mangulations of language being >used by some people in email these days, this just goes >to show that there's nothing new under the sun. :-) > >Greg Ewing, Computer Science Dept, +--------------------------------------+ >University of Canterbury, | A citizen of NewZealandCorp, a | >Christchurch, New Zealand | wholly-owned subsidiary of USA Inc. | >greg@cosc.canterbury.ac.nz +--------------------------------------+ From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Sun Oct 28 21:03:49 2001 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (ajp166) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:08 2005 Subject: [OT] New toy... Message-ID: <005a01c16026$5959b6c0$63f09a8d@ajp166> From: Derek Peschel >What I didn't know (until a Canadian guy at my ex-workplace explained >it to me) was that many of these abbreviations are French in origin. >("DE") That especially applies to the combined letter groups ("AR" with >no space in between = "end of message" = "arret", for example). > >This is not true of all abbreviations, of course. "FB" = "fine business" >(I know that only because I was looking for info on printing telegraphs >and stock tickers and found an old ARRL Handbook). There are plenty of others like... BT or break AR end of message SK end of work KN invitation to named station CL Closing station All of those are sent as one character. If you want to see a lot of abbreveated text read a sequence report as given for the aviation community. FCST CLDY TO BKN CLNG TO 10K.... Of course this would have been sent using ASR33 with 45 or 75 speed gears. Allison KB1GMX 6m-2m&70cm From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Sun Oct 28 18:52:31 2001 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (Ben Franchuk) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:08 2005 Subject: Price guide for vintage computers References: Message-ID: <3BDCA84F.7EED8C7C@jetnet.ab.ca> Ernest wrote: > > Has anyone considered that creating a price guide might do more harm than > good. What do you think that thrift shops (for example) would do if they had > a price guide? Jack their prices up to match most likely, on items that they > might have sold for less if they didn't know better. I guess my point is > that having a price guide available online might lead to higher prices. I > was able to buy a valiant turtle robot for a fraction of what it was worth > because the seller had no idea of it's value. Every collector has similar > stories, and while those things would still happen from time to time, a > price guide would certainly reduce the chances -especially with software. If > the price guide lists certain things as rare and more valueable, then the > seller will likely jack up his asking price. On the other hand, what if the > seller had no idea? The chances are better for collectors to get a "good" > deal. It's just something to consider. > > E. Hey this is thrift shop NOT EBAY! Ben. -- Standard Disclaimer : 97% speculation 2% bad grammar 1% facts. "Pre-historic Cpu's" http://www.jetnet.ab.ca/users/bfranchuk Now with schematics. From dittman at dittman.net Sun Oct 28 21:10:55 2001 From: dittman at dittman.net (Eric Dittman) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:08 2005 Subject: first step getting VAX 6000-400 booted ... In-Reply-To: <3BDCBD84.90205@aurora.regenstrief.org> from "Gunther Schadow" at Oct 28, 2001 09:23:00 PM Message-ID: <200110290310.f9T3AtY17792@narnia.int.dittman.net> > Yipeee! It works! And the even number of SDI cables was the > problem. Watch for yourself: Great news! > Loading system software. > > VAX/VMS Version V5.4 Major version id = 1 Minor version id = 0 You'll probably want a newer version. > %SET-I-NEWAUDSRV, identification of new audit server process is 00000089 > %LICENSE-W-NOLOAD, license was not loaded for BASIC > -LICENSE-F-EXCEEDED, attempted usage exceeds active license limits > %LICENSE-E-TERM, CDD-PLUS ATS-ZK-89335-156 License has terminated > %LICENSE-W-NOLOAD, license was not loaded for CDD-PLUS > -LICENSE-F-EXCEEDED, attempted usage exceeds active license limits > %LICENSE-W-NOLOAD, license was not loaded for COBOL > -LICENSE-F-EXCEEDED, attempted usage exceeds active license limits > %LICENSE-W-NOLOAD, license was not loaded for DTR > -LICENSE-F-EXCEEDED, attempted usage exceeds active license limits > %LICENSE-W-NOLOAD, license was not loaded for DVNETEND > -LICENSE-F-EXCEEDED, attempted usage exceeds active license limits > %LICENSE-E-TERM, FMS ATS-ZK-89335-326 License has terminated > %LICENSE-W-NOLOAD, license was not loaded for FMS > -LICENSE-F-EXCEEDED, attempted usage exceeds active license limits > %LICENSE-W-NOLOAD, license was not loaded for VAX-VMS > -LICENSE-F-EXCEEDED, attempted usage exceeds active license limits And the hobbyist licenses will help this. -- Eric Dittman dittman@dittman.net Check out the DEC Enthusiasts Club at http://www.dittman.net/ From dittman at dittman.net Sun Oct 28 21:16:38 2001 From: dittman at dittman.net (Eric Dittman) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:08 2005 Subject: VLB SCSI? In-Reply-To: <003401c16015$40edf1c0$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> from "Richard Erlacher" at Oct 28, 2001 06:01:33 PM Message-ID: <200110290316.f9T3Gcd17808@narnia.int.dittman.net> > > They have been designed from the start to be forward- and backward- > compatible. > > The 64-bit has a slot where the end of the 32-bit connector is located, and > the > > correct connector does not have a wide end. All the 32-bit connectors I've > seen > > have been the correct size (and I've seen a lot of them). A 64-bit PCI card > in > > a 32-bit slot steps down to 32-bit transfers. A 66MHz card in a 33MHz slot > steps > > down to 33MHz. > > > That wouldn't work too well when you need 99% of the bandwidth. The few 64-bit > cards I've seen up close don't seem to have a wide enough slit to allow them to > be plugged into a short PCI slot. The standard references to features such as > this one seemed quite iffy. I wish I could justify a current copy of the > standard. I just returned one to the local library, which had to get it on ILL. If the 64-bit cards won't plug into a 32-bit slot then they aren't PCI. They may look like PCI, and act like PCI, but if they don't follow the standard they aren't PCI. > Perhaps that one wasn't firewire, but it was ADAPTEC. The FC is what has me > buzzed up right now and I've seen no 64-bit slots in motherboards offered > recently. I hadn't even considered an Apple product, and it may take a while > for me to accept that notion. I've certainly never seen a high-bandwidth card > of any sort for sale that wasn't a 64-bit card. The abundance of 64-bit cards > against the dearth of motherboards with 64-bit PCI slots is what I've been > focusing on. Surely ADAPTEC and others are selling their products into > something with full 64-bit capacity. Look for boards with Serverworks or 760MP chipsets. I know Tyan, Asus, and MSI have these boards. Get a Serverworks chipset if you want to use a PIII, and a 760MP if you want an Athlon. These are dual processor boards, but you don't have to populate both sockets if you don't need two processors. There are quite a few motherboards with 64-bit slots, and they've existed for a while. I don't know why you haven't seen them. > > > ALPHA boards aren't relevant any longer, are they? > > > > I think so. The Alpha will be around for a while, with EV7 on the way, > despite > > what some people think. Compaq announced the Alpha would be winding down, not > > stopping dead in its tracks. > > > Yes, but they're controlled by someone else, now, and they're a fickle master. > I'd put no faith in that statement at all. >From my experience HP has a much better understanding of both the enterprise computing market and the value of solid operating systems. For example, HP is still supporting MPE, both with upgrades and new hardware. -- Eric Dittman dittman@dittman.net Check out the DEC Enthusiasts Club at http://www.dittman.net/ From dittman at dittman.net Sun Oct 28 21:26:00 2001 From: dittman at dittman.net (Eric Dittman) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:08 2005 Subject: OT: high bandwidth internet In-Reply-To: <004501c16016$600b8800$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> from "Richard Erlacher" at Oct 28, 2001 06:09:35 PM Message-ID: <200110290326.f9T3Q0B17882@narnia.int.dittman.net> > I finally caught up with my neighbor and he tells me that his microwave-based > internet service is with Sprint Broadband. He also tells me they're shaky and > not accepting any new subscribers. It's worse than that. I guess he hasn't heard that Sprint Broadband is closing operations soon. There was an announcement recently that both Sprint and AT&T are dumping their wireless internet services. > He's had some rough luck with his choice of > CPU's, etc. He's got several ALPHA boxes that apparently don't work with teh OS > he wanted to use, and this wasn't the first time he was left high and dry by a > CPU maker after making a significant investment. Did he buy the systems without checking what OS was supported on them? DEC and Compaq have always had a list of supported operating systems for each of their systems. If he didn't check first then DEC and Compaq can't be blamed if the operating system he wanted to run couldn't. -- Eric Dittman dittman@dittman.net Check out the DEC Enthusiasts Club at http://www.dittman.net/ From dittman at dittman.net Sun Oct 28 21:26:40 2001 From: dittman at dittman.net (Eric Dittman) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:08 2005 Subject: OT: Playstation 2 opinion? In-Reply-To: from "One Without Reason" at Oct 28, 2001 07:52:03 PM Message-ID: <200110290326.f9T3QeW17891@narnia.int.dittman.net> > But you get it letterboxed. Which is a bonus. Pan-and-scan sucks. -- Eric Dittman dittman@dittman.net Check out the DEC Enthusiasts Club at http://www.dittman.net/ From vze2wsvr at verizon.net Sun Oct 28 21:42:23 2001 From: vze2wsvr at verizon.net (Eric Chomko) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:08 2005 Subject: Price guide for vintage computers References: Message-ID: <3BDCD01F.E6C35D70@mail.verizon.net> Ernest wrote: > Has anyone considered that creating a price guide might do more harm than > good. What do you think that thrift shops (for example) would do if they had > a price guide? Jack their prices up to match most likely, on items that they Price guides don't buy or see things, people do. If the thift shop or anyone else for that matter marks something and nobody buys it, then the guide is wrong. The guide is just a guide, it's goal is to be accurate not allow you to buy things cheaply or have someone else sell too high. > > might have sold for less if they didn't know better. I guess my point is > that having a price guide available online might lead to higher prices. I > Is that so bad? Don't you want your collection to go up in value? > was able to buy a valiant turtle robot for a fraction of what it was worth > because the seller had no idea of it's value. Every collector has similar > stories, and while those things would still happen from time to time, a > price guide would certainly reduce the chances -especially with software. If So you would rather keep people naive so you can get better deals? Any true market has a buy/sell spread. Why would you want to prevent classic computers from being a real market? > > the price guide lists certain things as rare and more valueable, then the > seller will likely jack up his asking price. On the other hand, what if the > seller had no idea? The chances are better for collectors to get a "good" > deal. It's just something to consider. > One day your collectionwill be sold off, as you can't take it with you. Don't you want to get the most from your collection/investment? Eric > > E. From dec.parts at verizon.net Sun Oct 28 21:43:38 2001 From: dec.parts at verizon.net (Info from LSI) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:08 2005 Subject: value of scrap Message-ID: <3BDCD06A.13FF@verizon.net> Hello John and others, > I think I could pay scrap (.gt. free ) value. The scrap from commercial systems is actually valuable. Scrappers can get up to $2.00 per pound for it. I had 8 racks of cards ( non-DEC very proprietary stuff ) that didn't seem to want to sell individually, so I sold to a scrapper. That batch totaled 880 pounds, and I got $660.00 ( $.75 per pound ) and that scrapper wouldn't have been buying it unless he was making good money on it too. It just about paid for the 16' beavertail flatbed trailer I bought from the same fellow. So when Heinz says ... > It sucks that these people would rather scrap out a machine > than let a collector have it for free. It translates to ... "it sucks that people won't give away free money" Bennett From vance at ikickass.org Sun Oct 28 21:53:04 2001 From: vance at ikickass.org (One Without Reason) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:08 2005 Subject: OT: Playstation 2 opinion? In-Reply-To: <200110290326.f9T3QeW17891@narnia.int.dittman.net> Message-ID: Letterboxed sucks. Anamorphic is where it's at. Peace... Sridhar On Sun, 28 Oct 2001, Eric Dittman wrote: > > But you get it letterboxed. > > Which is a bonus. Pan-and-scan sucks. > -- > Eric Dittman > dittman@dittman.net > Check out the DEC Enthusiasts Club at http://www.dittman.net/ > From SUPRDAVE at aol.com Sun Oct 28 22:09:27 2001 From: SUPRDAVE at aol.com (SUPRDAVE@aol.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:08 2005 Subject: Price guide for vintage computers Message-ID: <54.1d0fc1d0.290e3077@aol.com> In a message dated 10/28/01 10:50:27 PM Eastern Standard Time, vze2wsvr@verizon.net writes: << One day your collectionwill be sold off, as you can't take it with you. Don't you want to get the most from your collection/investment? Eric >> I would think that most of us collect for reasons OTHER than specifically for monetary value... Collecting anything almost always is a piss-poor investment. There are better ways to invest money. -- DB Young Team OS/2 old computers, hot rod pinto and more at: www.nothingtodo.org From rhblakeman at kih.net Sun Oct 28 22:17:34 2001 From: rhblakeman at kih.net (Russ Blakeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:08 2005 Subject: email/browser for DOS or C64/128? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: I belive that the mainboard inthe 128D is probably the same with the addition of maybe a few things but basically the same with exception of the case and builtin floppy. I though it was a pretty humungous connector too but hey it works. -> -----Original Message----- -> From: owner-classiccmp@classiccmp.org -> [mailto:owner-classiccmp@classiccmp.org]On Behalf Of Jeff Hellige -> Sent: Sunday, October 28, 2001 7:51 PM -> To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org -> Subject: RE: email/browser for DOS or C64/128? -> -> -> >128 and 128D to be exact. I love the 128D, too bad Commodore -> waited so long -> >to finally get it right. -> -> I tend to use 'C-128' to refer to either of them, though the -> 128D is different in some respects. I don't believe there's much, if -> anything, that requires one over the other. I also like the 128D but -> have often wondered why they used such a hefty connector for the -> keyboard. -> -> Jeff -> -- -> Home of the TRS-80 Model 2000 FAQ File -> http://www.cchaven.com -> http://www.geocities.com/siliconvalley/lakes/6757 -> -> From rhblakeman at kih.net Sun Oct 28 22:20:49 2001 From: rhblakeman at kih.net (Russ Blakeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:08 2005 Subject: email/browser for DOS or C64/128? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: I belive that the mainboard inthe 128D is probably the same with the addition of maybe a few things but basically the same with exception of the case and builtin floppy. I though it was a pretty humungous connector too but hey it works. -> -----Original Message----- -> From: owner-classiccmp@classiccmp.org -> [mailto:owner-classiccmp@classiccmp.org]On Behalf Of Jeff Hellige -> Sent: Sunday, October 28, 2001 7:51 PM -> To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org -> Subject: RE: email/browser for DOS or C64/128? -> -> -> >128 and 128D to be exact. I love the 128D, too bad Commodore -> waited so long -> >to finally get it right. -> -> I tend to use 'C-128' to refer to either of them, though the -> 128D is different in some respects. I don't believe there's much, if -> anything, that requires one over the other. I also like the 128D but -> have often wondered why they used such a hefty connector for the -> keyboard. -> -> Jeff -> -- -> Home of the TRS-80 Model 2000 FAQ File -> http://www.cchaven.com -> http://www.geocities.com/siliconvalley/lakes/6757 -> -> From gunther at aurora.regenstrief.org Sun Oct 28 22:22:04 2001 From: gunther at aurora.regenstrief.org (Gunther Schadow) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:08 2005 Subject: VAX6460: VMS 5.4 how to move on? Message-ID: <3BDCD96C.5000604@aurora.regenstrief.org> Hi, O.K. I am delighted! I did boot VMS 5.4 from that RA90 labeled as unit 0. I changed the system password and am now copying ULTRIX filed off the TK50 tape onto disk in order to write them on 9-track trying to boot from there. Of course I will have all sorts of grief because of the weird VMS blocked file formats. For instance, what I read from the tape should look like this on UNIX: -rw-r--r-- 1 operator 17408 May 12 03:44 file0 -rw-r--r-- 1 operator 2091208 May 12 03:45 file1 -rw-r--r-- 1 operator 6594560 May 12 03:47 file2 -rw-r--r-- 1 operator 727040 May 12 03:47 file3 -rw-r--r-- 1 operator 8826880 May 12 03:48 file4 -rw-r--r-- 1 operator 3143680 May 12 03:48 file5 -rw-r--r-- 1 operator 2007040 May 12 03:48 file6 -rw-r--r-- 1 operator 522240 May 12 03:48 file7 -rw-r--r-- 1 operator 665600 May 12 03:48 file8 -rw-r--r-- 1 operator 286720 May 12 03:48 file9 -rw-r--r-- 1 operator 2949120 May 12 03:45 file10 -rw-r--r-- 1 operator 2160640 May 12 03:45 file11 -rw-r--r-- 1 operator 1249280 May 12 03:45 file12 -rw-r--r-- 1 operator 1024000 May 12 03:45 file13 -rw-r--r-- 1 operator 1495040 May 12 03:45 file14 ... -rw-r--r-- 1 operator 276480 May 12 03:47 file38 and what I have copied from TK50 so far looks like this: $ dir /size Directory SYS$SYSROOT:[GUNTHER] FILE.000;1 0 FILE.001;1 0 FILE.002;1 12880 FILE.003;1 1420 FILE.004;1 17240 FILE.005;1 6140 FILE.006;1 3920 FILE.007;1 1020 Total of 8 files, 42620 blocks. O.K. seems like we have file sizes reported in 512 byte blocks. But file 1 didn't come up right. May be that was because of this read error that keeps the tape from booting? Anyway, before I go to bed I will have copied the first set of filed to disk and back to a tape. Either a TK70 or a 9-track and will try to boot. It looks like I'm making progress, finally. However, I ask myself what to do with that VMS 5.4 system disk. Should I keep it and get another drive downstairs for my Ultrix attempts? Should I rather keep this running 5.4 VMS or should I make a fresh install of a VMS 6.1 of which I have tapes? I am a curious person, so I could first dig in the disks for interesting stuff, but then, I rather want to get away from VMS and onto Ultrix and finally NetBSD. So how much are old filesystems worth keeping? I don't have enough tape to back it all up, and even if I had, how would I do this? How can I find UCX on this VMS 5.4 filesystem? It appears as absent. Is there something like find(1) on VMS? Did UCX not exist for VMS 5.4? Could I install it from a VMS 6.1 bin tape? Do I have any chance of using my ethernet for anything like file transfer or NFS without having UCX? thanks much for helping me accross the VMS river :-) regards -Gunther -- Gunther Schadow, M.D., Ph.D. gschadow@regenstrief.org Medical Information Scientist Regenstrief Institute for Health Care Adjunct Assistant Professor Indiana University School of Medicine tel:1(317)630-7960 http://aurora.regenstrief.org From spectre at stockholm.ptloma.edu Sun Oct 28 22:29:18 2001 From: spectre at stockholm.ptloma.edu (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:08 2005 Subject: email/browser for DOS or C64/128? In-Reply-To: from Jeff Hellige at "Oct 28, 1 08:51:04 pm" Message-ID: <200110290429.VAA09288@stockholm.ptloma.edu> > >128 and 128D to be exact. I love the 128D, too bad Commodore waited so long > >to finally get it right. > > I tend to use 'C-128' to refer to either of them, though the > 128D is different in some respects. I don't believe there's much, if > anything, that requires one over the other. I also like the 128D but > have often wondered why they used such a hefty connector for the > keyboard. The 128D has 64K VDC VRAM, which some applications do need. -- ----------------------------- personal page: http://www.armory.com/~spectre/ -- Cameron Kaiser, Point Loma Nazarene University * ckaiser@stockholm.ptloma.edu -- The whippings shall continue until morale improves. ------------------------ From geoffrob at stmarks.pp.catholic.edu.au Sun Oct 28 22:29:15 2001 From: geoffrob at stmarks.pp.catholic.edu.au (Geoff Roberts) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:08 2005 Subject: value of scrap References: <3BDCD06A.13FF@verizon.net> Message-ID: <026b01c16032$455defe0$de2c67cb@helpdesk> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Info from LSI" To: Cc: "John Allain" ; "Heinz Wolter" Sent: Monday, October 29, 2001 2:13 PM Subject: value of scrap > The scrap from commercial systems is actually valuable. > Scrappers can get up to $2.00 per pound for it. Hmm, AU$300 - AU$350 a metric tonne here. Maybe it's more on specific items, but the scrap dealers in Adelaide are not fussed one way or the other. > So when Heinz says ... > > > It sucks that these people would rather scrap out a machine > > than let a collector have it for free. > > It translates to ... > > "it sucks that people won't give away free money" Sad but true Cheers Geoff Roberts Computer Systems Manager Saint Mark's College Port Pirie, South Australia geoffrob@stmarks.pp.catholic.edu.au ICQ 1970476 From geoffrob at stmarks.pp.catholic.edu.au Sun Oct 28 22:56:53 2001 From: geoffrob at stmarks.pp.catholic.edu.au (Geoff Roberts) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:08 2005 Subject: VAX6460: VMS 5.4 how to move on? References: <3BDCD96C.5000604@aurora.regenstrief.org> Message-ID: <028101c16036$213cd5a0$de2c67cb@helpdesk> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Gunther Schadow" To: Sent: Monday, October 29, 2001 2:52 PM Subject: VAX6460: VMS 5.4 how to move on? > Hi, > > O.K. I am delighted! I did boot VMS 5.4 from that RA90 labeled > as unit 0. Ok! What was the problem that prevented it working earlier? > I changed the system password and am now copying > ULTRIX filed off the TK50 tape onto disk in order to write them > on 9-track trying to boot from there. Of course I will have > all sorts of grief because of the weird VMS blocked file > formats. Yeah it's different. For instance, what I read from the tape should look > like this on UNIX: > $ dir /size > > Directory SYS$SYSROOT:[GUNTHER] > > FILE.000;1 0 > FILE.001;1 0 > FILE.002;1 12880 > FILE.003;1 1420 > FILE.004;1 17240 > FILE.005;1 6140 > FILE.006;1 3920 > FILE.007;1 1020 > > Total of 8 files, 42620 blocks. > > O.K. seems like we have file sizes reported in 512 byte blocks. Correct. > But file 1 didn't come up right. May be that was because of > this read error that keeps the tape from booting? Could be, certainly doesn't look right to have a zero length file, it has to occupy at least one block. > Anyway, before I go to bed I will have copied the first set > of filed to disk and back to a tape. Either a TK70 or a > 9-track and will try to boot. It looks like I'm making > progress, finally. Indeed. > However, I ask myself what to do with that VMS 5.4 system > disk. Should I keep it and get another drive downstairs > Should I rather keep this running 5.4 > VMS or should I make a fresh install of a VMS 6.1 of which > I have tapes? 6.1 would be better on that hardware. Make sure you get all the license stuff from the 5.4 sysdisk before you init or otherwise clean it, you might have all sorts of goodies on there. The distributions are easy to get (relatively) but the licenses are expensive unless you get the freeware one from DECUS, which I think covers all the apps and layered products too now. If you do have several drives, it wouldn't hurt to keep the working version salted away somewhere. > I am a curious person, so I could first dig in > the disks for interesting stuff, but then, I rather want to > get away from VMS and onto Ultrix and finally NetBSD. So > how much are old filesystems worth keeping? I don't have > enough tape to back it all up, and even if I had, how would > I do this? You have to boot Standalone backup either off tape or a disk. It's a bootable version of Backup, essentially a minimal VMS shell with embedded backup. Only proper way to backup a VMS system disk. How many RA9x drives do you have? You could do a BACKUP/PHYSICAL onto another RA9x drive. Instant system disk. You could also install SA Backup onto another drive, or even to an alternate system root on the same drive, you then boot SA Backup instead of VMS and can do full backups of anything. > How can I find UCX on this VMS 5.4 filesystem? It appears as > absent. Is there something like find(1) on VMS? Did UCX not > exist for VMS 5.4? It did, but as an option, and an ugly one at that. Probably not on there, DECNET was standard and shipped with/as part of VMS usually. UCX was another extra cost item. Could I install it from a VMS 6.1 bin tape? Unlikely to be on the 6.1 tape, you'd need a consolidated software distribution. Someone closer to you will have the necessary bits. Or you can get a 3rd party stack like Multinet (essentially 3.2 BSD Tahoe TCP/IP ported for VMS) If you get stuck, get back to me, can help with an old version (3.2 Rev B that will work with 6.1 ok) (with a little nudging) > Do I have any chance of using my ethernet for anything like > file transfer or NFS without having UCX? Only for things that speak DECNET, or thru a terminal with Zmodem or Kermit or something. (Both are avbl for VMS - again can help if you are desperate) > thanks much for helping me accross the VMS river :-) No prob. I'm a bit the way you are with VMS about Unix. (VMS was the first 'real' OS I played with) It was on my 6000 when I got it so I had to learn how to drive it. Cheers Geoff Roberts Computer Systems Manager Saint Mark's College Port Pirie, South Australia geoffrob@stmarks.pp.catholic.edu.au ICQ 1970476 From pdp11 at bellsouth.net Sun Oct 28 22:57:59 2001 From: pdp11 at bellsouth.net (Doug Carman) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:08 2005 Subject: How to disassemble an HSC90? References: <3BDA25D4.90804@aurora.regenstrief.org> Message-ID: <3BDCE1D7.5494DBA2@bellsouth.net> Gunther Schadow wrote: > > Hi, > > has anyone of you ever disassembled an HSC cabinet? I am looking > pretty stupid right now. It's not the first piece of DEC iron > equipment that I have moved in pieces, I did two VAX6000 and one > TU81+. But this one is different. While being half-height like the > TU81, it's quite a bit deeper. The side-walls appear to be just > locked at the bottom and then hooked such that one can lift it > up and off, like the TU81's side walls. However, they do not move > no matter how hard I try. I don't find any screws holding them, > though. And with the sidewalls on, I cannot remove the top-cover > either. Despite the fact that they appear glued in place, I believe they remove in the same manner as the TU81 and other cabinets. I have had some that were very difficult to get off. I find that a flat pry bar (nail puller) placed under the side and prying against the horizontal lip on the under frame near the wheels will break the side panel loose from the brackets it hangs on. I have had to use quite a bit of force on some of the cabinets to get the sides off. After removing them for the first time, they seem to go on and off easily. --- Doug Carman pdp11@bellsouth.net From Diff at Mac.com Sun Oct 28 23:01:52 2001 From: Diff at Mac.com (Zach Malone) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:08 2005 Subject: OT: Playstation 2 opinion? References: Message-ID: <000d01c16036$e121e540$6501a8c0@laboffice> I have a widescreen format computer display, whats really interesting is letter-box within a wide format screen, which is what most stuff does on it. Ugh. Zach ----- Original Message ----- From: "One Without Reason" To: "Eric Dittman" Cc: Sent: Sunday, October 28, 2001 10:53 PM Subject: Re: OT: Playstation 2 opinion? > > Letterboxed sucks. Anamorphic is where it's at. > > Peace... Sridhar > > On Sun, 28 Oct 2001, Eric Dittman wrote: > > > > But you get it letterboxed. > > > > Which is a bonus. Pan-and-scan sucks. > > -- > > Eric Dittman > > dittman@dittman.net > > Check out the DEC Enthusiasts Club at http://www.dittman.net/ > > > From pdp11 at bellsouth.net Sun Oct 28 23:27:15 2001 From: pdp11 at bellsouth.net (Doug Carman) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:08 2005 Subject: value of classic DEC machines? References: Message-ID: <3BDCE8B3.21D1768@bellsouth.net> Tony Duell wrote: > > > Anybody know if an 11/70 can be fit into a single rack? > > > > The CPU is 1 BA11-F box IIRC, which along with PSUs and cooling space is > going to take up half the rack. You could probably fit one or two of the > memory boxes above it without impeding the airflow through the top CPU > fans too much. > > So you could get the CPU and (some) memory into a single rack. If you can > make do with one memory box then you can get a disk drive in there as well. > > But I would think 2 racks (one for CPU + memory, the other for > peripherals) are more practical. 2 racks would give you enough space for > a reasonable system. Trying to put large things above the CPU will reduce the airflow to the CPU. After having someone kindly give me two H960 racks, I was able to put my own 11/70 system into a three rack configuration. This eliminates everything from the CPU cabinet except the CPU and two large fans in the top of the same cabinet. My MK11 memory, RX02, and SA72 storage are in a second cabinet. My BA11 expansion shelf, with all the I/O panels that go with it, are in a third cabinet. This is closer to what DEC would have configured, is much nicer to work on, and has much better air circulation through the cabinets. Even at that, I don't have the back doors on the cabinets, mostly because of all the cables. The CPU needs lots of unrestricted airflow, especially if you are not running it in a very well air conditioned equipment room. I believe that DEC would only allow certain types of equipment to be placed above the CPU. Basically, things that are not very deep, and would not restrict airflow. The only way I could see reducing it to a single cabinet would be to use a third party memory solution (one that fits in the CPU), and not extend the UNIBUS outside the CPU cabinet. This reduces you to using only the 4 SPC slots in the CPU. From edick at idcomm.com Sun Oct 28 23:34:42 2001 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:08 2005 Subject: VLB SCSI? References: <200110290316.f9T3Gcd17808@narnia.int.dittman.net> Message-ID: <003301c1603b$69781960$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> Not having tried it I can't say, but there's clearly a difference in performance between a 32-bit slot and 64-bit slot. I'd guess the fast I/O devices need all the transfer bandwidth the 64-bit slot can offer. That would make a 64-bit board plugged into a 32-bit slot inappropriate if not useless. Surely somebody is making and selling these things. Dick ----- Original Message ----- From: "Eric Dittman" To: Sent: Sunday, October 28, 2001 8:16 PM Subject: Re: VLB SCSI? > > > They have been designed from the start to be forward- and backward- > > > > > That wouldn't work too well when you need 99% of the bandwidth. The few 64-bit > > cards I've seen up close don't seem to have a wide enough slit to allow them to > > be plugged into a short PCI slot. The standard references to features such as > > this one seemed quite iffy. I wish I could justify a current copy of the > > standard. I just returned one to the local library, which had to get it on ILL. > > If the 64-bit cards won't plug into a 32-bit slot then they aren't PCI. They > may look like PCI, and act like PCI, but if they don't follow the standard > they aren't PCI. > From dittman at dittman.net Sun Oct 28 23:43:31 2001 From: dittman at dittman.net (Eric Dittman) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:08 2005 Subject: VAX6460: VMS 5.4 how to move on? In-Reply-To: <028101c16036$213cd5a0$de2c67cb@helpdesk> from "Geoff Roberts" at Oct 29, 2001 03:26:53 PM Message-ID: <200110290543.f9T5hVP18243@narnia.int.dittman.net> > You have to boot Standalone backup either off tape or a disk. > It's a bootable version of Backup, essentially a minimal VMS shell with > embedded backup. > Only proper way to backup a VMS system disk. How many RA9x drives do you > have? Standalone backup can be built on and run from the system disk without any problems. > You could do a BACKUP/PHYSICAL onto another RA9x drive. Instant system > disk. I'd recommend against /PHYSICAL. Instead, BACKUP/IMAGE. -- Eric Dittman dittman@dittman.net Check out the DEC Enthusiasts Club at http://www.dittman.net/ From pechter at ureach.com Mon Oct 29 00:06:46 2001 From: pechter at ureach.com (Bill Pechter) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:08 2005 Subject: ATEX? Message-ID: <200110290606.BAA24020@stage21.ureach.com> ---- On Sat, 27 Oct 2001, Chris (mythtech@Mac.com) wrote: > >Does anyone know anything about an ATEX system? > > Ok... ignore me. I over zealously posted this question to the list > because you people are just so damn smart. > > If I had bothered to even LOOK for myself, I would have found ATEX.com, > > which even has a press release mentioning how The Record (the paper my > friend works at) has been a user of theirs for over 25 years. > > So I think I found at least a strong pointer in the right direction. > (Although, if anyone has a list of commands an ATEX system accepts, that > > would also be helpful... however, it seems they have a number of > different systems available) > > Sorry for wasting the bandwidth. > > -chris > > > > > > This wouldn't happen to have been the Bergen Record... Used to work for one of their papers as a reporter back before I got into PDP11's at DEC. -- Bill Pechter Systems Administrator uReach Technologies 732-335-5432 (Work) 877-661-2126 (Fax) From dittman at dittman.net Mon Oct 29 00:10:41 2001 From: dittman at dittman.net (Eric Dittman) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:08 2005 Subject: VLB SCSI? In-Reply-To: <003301c1603b$69781960$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> from "Richard Erlacher" at Oct 28, 2001 10:34:42 PM Message-ID: <200110290610.f9T6AfE18356@narnia.int.dittman.net> > Not having tried it I can't say, but there's clearly a difference in performance > between a 32-bit slot and 64-bit slot. I'd guess the fast I/O devices need all > the transfer bandwidth the 64-bit slot can offer. That would make a 64-bit > board plugged into a 32-bit slot inappropriate if not useless. I have two 64-bit PCI cards. One is a four-port 100M Ethernet card and the other is a dual-port U2W SCSI card. The Ethernet card is plugged into my Internet gateway as I had to have three Ethernet ports and I only had one free PCI slot (one for each of my DSL chnnections, one to the local LAN). The card works fine in a 32-bit slot, but I'm not maxing out the connections in any case. The 64-bit SCSI card is in a 64-bit PCI slot and works fine there, but I've also used it in a 32-bit slot without any problems. > Surely somebody is making and selling these things. The cards? Yes. The motherboards? Yes. I don't think a lot of people need 64-bit PCI cards at home or on their office desktops. In servers, yes. -- Eric Dittman dittman@dittman.net Check out the DEC Enthusiasts Club at http://www.dittman.net/ From ernestls at home.com Mon Oct 29 00:12:47 2001 From: ernestls at home.com (Ernest) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:08 2005 Subject: Price guide for vintage computers In-Reply-To: <3BDCD01F.E6C35D70@mail.verizon.net> Message-ID: > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-classiccmp@classiccmp.org > [mailto:owner-classiccmp@classiccmp.org]On Behalf Of Eric Chomko > Sent: Sunday, October 28, 2001 7:42 PM > To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org > Subject: Re: Price guide for vintage computers > > might have sold for less if they didn't know better. I guess my point is > > that having a price guide available online might lead to higher > prices. I > > > > Is that so bad? Don't you want your collection to go up in value? Frankly, I don't really care at this point. I don't do it to make money. I have never bought a piece because I thought it might be a good long term financial investment. > > was able to buy a valiant turtle robot for a fraction of what > it was worth > > because the seller had no idea of it's value. Every collector > has similar > > stories, and while those things would still happen from time to time, a > > price guide would certainly reduce the chances -especially with > software. If > > So you would rather keep people naive so you can get better > deals? Any true > market has a buy/sell spread. Why would you want to prevent > classic computers > from being a real market? ??? Of course I want better deals. Go figure, eh? I don't want classic computers to be a "market" at all. I would rather think of them as something that is traded, not bought and sold like a commodity. I get the feeling though, that the money IS the important part for you, and maybe that's why this guide is so important to you. I think that an informational guide is a great idea but including prices/values is the part that I question. > > the price guide lists certain things as rare and more > valuable, then the > > seller will likely jack up his asking price. On the other hand, > what if the > > seller had no idea? The chances are better for collectors to > get a "good" > > deal. It's just something to consider. > > > > One day your collectionwill be sold off, as you can't take it > with you. Don't > you want to get the most from your collection/investment? If I can't take it with me, why would I care? OK, that isn't fair. Yes, I would like my collection to at least retain it's value, in real money but I believe that would happen anyway, with or without a price guide. > > E. > > From gunther at aurora.regenstrief.org Mon Oct 29 00:18:12 2001 From: gunther at aurora.regenstrief.org (Gunther Schadow) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:08 2005 Subject: TU81+ spooks (was: Re: first step getting VAX 6000-400 booted ...) References: <3BD5B07D.5702C1BA@aurora.regenstrief.org> Message-ID: <3BDCF4A4.6070404@aurora.regenstrief.org> O.K. it would have been too good to be true. I got quite far with my Ultrix, but then I got stuck with being unable to boot from the TU81+ drive. My VMS 5.4 does detect the TU81 just fine, calls it MUB0 and allows me to mount it and write files to it. I think I have now a bootable 9-track reel with at least the first 10 files of the Ultrix 4.1 bootable tape ready to go with all blocksizes as required. It was fun writing! But trying to boot this still brings up the old error: >>> SHOW ALL ... XBI D 1+ DWMBA/B (2107) 000A 2+ KLESI-B (0103) 0006 ... >>> BOOT /XMI:D /BI:2 /R5:1008 MU0 Initializing system. ... Loading system software. ?06 Halt instruction executed in kernel mode. PC = 200D7264 SAVPSL = 041F0600 ISP = 0003FBB8 ?3D Error initializing I/O device Bootstrap failed due to previous error. >>> ans this goes all too fast certainly the tape never starts moving before the error. So I tried checking for the TU81's unit number (may be it's MU1 or MU4 or MU213, who knows? First thing is when I power up the TU81 it shows 000 on the front panel, but as soon as it is initialized the display remains blank. So, perhaps it has no unit number set at all? The manual says in order to set the unit number you have to go into TEST program 04. Which I did, TEST - STEP - STEP - STEP - EXECUTE. But then it only says E77 and that's it. This means, something is wrong, but what? The manual only says to call DEC field service. I know the drive works fine, the diagnostic test 01 has passed just fine and VMS works happily with it. So, who knows about the TU81 and how to set a unit number or make it bootable otherwise??? (PS: yes, I had the drive loaded and online when I tried booting, did that offline mistake once before, but not here.) thanks again for your excellent advice, -Gunther From h.wolter at sympatico.ca Mon Oct 29 00:20:29 2001 From: h.wolter at sympatico.ca (Heinz Wolter) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:08 2005 Subject: Price guide for vintage computers- matchmaker ? References: <3BDCA84F.7EED8C7C@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <00eb01c16041$cef9c260$3a92a8c0@MAGGIE> Instead of a price guide - how about a "got'em need'em" list, done up all electronically on a web site ? Companies or individuals having equipment to go could be contacted by email and led to the web site... Individuals, collectors, museums, Sridhar etc could create accounts - profiles of things they had to move- possibly sell, but better yet trade, and list their "need" list. This could be done also for parts, such a DEC modules, hardware, tapes, software distributions etc... Matches could be listed by size, weight, transports availability desirability. When a match hit occured, your would be notified. Ultimately, a "seller" (regardless of wether payment exchanged hands or not" would decide which of the potential takers would get it based on distance, need, trade offer, cash, arrogance, greediness etc... In order words much like a cross between one of those internet dating sites and ebay (ugh!)...except that any money exchanged would be strictly up to the parties involved. "Ben Franchuk" wrote: >>Subject: Re: Price guide for vintage computers > Ernest wrote: > > > > Has anyone considered that creating a price guide might do more harm than > > good. What do you think that thrift shops (for example) would do if they had > > a price guide? Jack their prices up to match most likely, on items that they > > might have sold for less if they didn't know better. I guess my point is actually, many of them already do.. > > that having a price guide available online might lead to higher prices. I > > was able to buy a valiant turtle robot for a fraction of what it was worth > > because the seller had no idea of it's value. Every collector has similar I think that a price guide would make everyone more honest, but it would not preclude someone knowingly giving you a good deal - which is alot better than getting cheated. We're all big boys and girls - if we spend too much or sell for too little - we have no one to blame but ourselves - for not doing the homework. Of course if the guide prices were based solely on those gleaned from ebay or other online auctions, many would say they would be artificially high - ebay prices without the ebay insurance :( > > stories, and while those things would still happen from time to time, a > > price guide would certainly reduce the chances -especially with software. If > > the price guide lists certain things as rare and more valueable, then the > > seller will likely jack up his asking price. On the other hand, what if the > > seller had no idea? The chances are better for collectors to get a "good" > > deal. It's just something to consider. > > Well, alternately we could just post to this NG with "for sale" or "wanted" messages like people already do, despite "noncommercial" interest guidelines... regards, Heinz From vze2mnvr at verizon.net Mon Oct 29 00:36:11 2001 From: vze2mnvr at verizon.net (Ian Koller) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:08 2005 Subject: [OT] New toy... References: <200110290124.OAA09126@s454.cosc.canterbury.ac.nz> Message-ID: <3BDCF8DB.9B3B993B@verizon.net> speaking of ... > To those dismayed at the mangulations of language being > used by some people in email these days, this just goes > to show that there's nothing new under the sun. :-) can anyone fill in the blanks here ... IMHO - in my humble opinion IMO - in my opinion IIRC - if I recall correctly ? OTOH - on the other hand FYI - for your information IOW - FWIW - for what it's worth AFAIK - WRT - with respect/regards to ISTR - TMK - ISTR - SAS - FAE - FA - DIY - Do it yourself YMMV - HMMV - ECO - Engineering Change Order ? AAMAF - PITA - IPA - TIA - Thanks In Advance NG - NAOA - Not An Official Acronym TTBOMK - to the best of my knowledge I hate to admit it, but I haven't figured some of these out. And just maybe someone else hasn't either? but wouldn't want to be associated with asking any stupid questions? Feel free to add any that you feel to be significant. Greg Ewing wrote: > > John Lawson: > > > FB OM YR SIGS 599 RPT 599 QSL VIA BURO TNX ES 73 DE KB6SCO > > pete@dunnington.u-net.com (Pete Turnbull): > > > It's (mostly standard) radio ham CW (continuous wave) abbreviations, used > > to save keying too much morse. > > To those dismayed at the mangulations of language being > used by some people in email these days, this just goes > to show that there's nothing new under the sun. :-) > > Greg Ewing, Computer Science Dept, +--------------------------------------+ > University of Canterbury, | A citizen of NewZealandCorp, a | > Christchurch, New Zealand | wholly-owned subsidiary of USA Inc. | > greg@cosc.canterbury.ac.nz +--------------------------------------+ From jrasite at eoni.com Sun Oct 28 23:50:00 2001 From: jrasite at eoni.com (Jim Arnott) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:08 2005 Subject: unknown SRAM chips References: <01102813325400.08169@ws1> Message-ID: <3BDCEE05.50C8E80C@eoni.com> A good place to start is with Chipmunk. Didn't dig too deep, but a cursory exam doesn't turn up TMM or HM6. Good luck. Jim From mikeford at socal.rr.com Mon Oct 29 01:00:02 2001 From: mikeford at socal.rr.com (Mike Ford) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:08 2005 Subject: Price guide for vintage computers In-Reply-To: References: <002c01c16013$873ab020$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> Message-ID: >Has anyone considered that creating a price guide might do more harm than >good. What do you think that thrift shops (for example) would do if they had I would say the risk of some higher prices isn't what I would worry about. A book of prices will save a huge number of each of the 500 items it might cover, my worry is that it dooms everything else that isn't listed. From jrasite at eoni.com Mon Oct 29 00:16:10 2001 From: jrasite at eoni.com (Jim Arnott) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:08 2005 Subject: [OT] New toy... References: <200110290124.OAA09126@s454.cosc.canterbury.ac.nz> <3BDCF8DB.9B3B993B@verizon.net> Message-ID: <3BDD0220.E67BCB7B@eoni.com> Ian Koller wrote: > > IMHO - in my humble opinion > IMO - in my opinion > IIRC - if I recall correctly ? > OTOH - on the other hand > FYI - for your information > IOW - In Other Words > FWIW - for what it's worth > AFAIK - as far as I know > WRT - with respect/regards to > ISTR - > TMK - > ISTR - > SAS - > FAE - > FA - > DIY - Do it yourself > YMMV - Your mileage may vary > HMMV - > ECO - Engineering Change Order ? > AAMAF - > PITA - pain in the ass > IPA - > TIA - Thanks In Advance > NG - no good (or NFG) > NAOA - Not An Official Acronym > TTBOMK - to the best of my knowledge My favorite? TANSTAAFL - there ain't no such thing as a free lunch From mikeford at socal.rr.com Mon Oct 29 01:18:47 2001 From: mikeford at socal.rr.com (Mike Ford) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:08 2005 Subject: A couple old books, 6502 and Mostek In-Reply-To: <3BDCD96C.5000604@aurora.regenstrief.org> Message-ID: I found a couple books while digging in boxes at TRW. Beyond Games: Systems Software for your 6502 Personal Computer. Ken Skier This is a very early book, copyright 1981, covering a series of articles from BYTE magazine. Lots of low level nuts and bolts software, a monitor, assembler, text, printing etc., but with a very basic approach, and over half the book are reference listings etc. Has a few specifics for each of Pet, Apple, Atari, and other 6502 computers. Mostek, MOS Integrated Circuit Guide. Magazine sized, 138 page, blue and silver book, copyright is 1975, but the only microprocess it mentions is the F8, and I was expecting 6502. Covers several early memory chips and some consumer calculator chips, very nice condition. I am thinking about $5 for either book, but best offer and postage gets it. From kevin at xpuppy.freeserve.co.uk Mon Oct 29 01:24:39 2001 From: kevin at xpuppy.freeserve.co.uk (Kevin Murrell) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:08 2005 Subject: Almost on topic - Cassette I/O In-Reply-To: <001701c15fe6$b061c9c0$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> Message-ID: The Nascom II single board Z80 machine included a simple but reliable cassette interface. The circuit diagrams are online at http://www.nascomhomepage.com/pdf/Nascom2.pdf Kevin -----Original Message----- From: owner-classiccmp@classiccmp.org [mailto:owner-classiccmp@classiccmp.org]On Behalf Of Richard Erlacher Sent: 28 October 2001 19:28 To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org Subject: Re: Almost on topic - Cassette I/O I don't know what data rate you're after, but with a couple of parallel I/O bits, you can build a very seriously reliable audio cassette interface, requiring only that you ditially time the transitions on the serial link. If you use Manchester encoding which has timing information embedded in every bit, you can operate the cassette interface at the highest rate at which the head/media combination is capable, without any particular hardship. You just need to low-pass filter the output and AC-couple the input with a couple or three passives for each, you're done. If your cassette is capable of 10 kHz then you need simply approximate the I/O rate to match, since a string of either 1's or 0's will have that frequency, and the transitions between them will never have less than a +180-degree phase shift. Dick ----- Original Message ----- From: "Ben Franchuk" To: Sent: Sunday, October 28, 2001 11:58 AM Subject: Almost on topic - Cassette I/O > I am building a FPGA ( Field programmable gate array ) computer > in the style of the early computers that had a front panel and > TTY for I/O. While I don't have have a front panel working the > Hardware serial bootstrap does work on my prototype. Since I > have a few LOGIC cells left in my FPGA to play with I was > thinking adding a cassette interface. Does anybody know of > schematics on the web that I can get ideas from. > Ben Franchuk. > -- > Standard Disclaimer : 97% speculation 2% bad grammar 1% facts. > "Pre-historic Cpu's" http://www.jetnet.ab.ca/users/bfranchuk > Now with schematics. > > From cmcmanis at mcmanis.com Mon Oct 29 01:44:43 2001 From: cmcmanis at mcmanis.com (Chuck McManis) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:08 2005 Subject: [OT] New toy... In-Reply-To: <3BDCF8DB.9B3B993B@verizon.net> References: <200110290124.OAA09126@s454.cosc.canterbury.ac.nz> Message-ID: <5.0.0.25.2.20011028234324.024ca090@209.185.79.193> >IOW - In Other Words >AFAIK - As Far As I know YMMV - Your mileage may vary >PITA - Pain in the Arse From dittman at dittman.net Mon Oct 29 01:50:38 2001 From: dittman at dittman.net (Eric Dittman) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:08 2005 Subject: [OT] New toy... In-Reply-To: <3BDCF8DB.9B3B993B@verizon.net> from "Ian Koller" at Oct 29, 2001 01:36:11 AM Message-ID: <200110290750.f9T7ocW18553@narnia.int.dittman.net> > IIRC - if I recall correctly ? Or If I Remember Correctly. > IOW - In Other Words > AFAIK - As Far As I Know > ISTR - I Seem To Recall/Remember > FA - For Auction > YMMV - Your Mileage May Vary > HMMV - High Mobility Multipurpose Vehicle (the actual acronym for the Hummer) > ECO - Engineering Change Order ? Yes. > PITA - Pain In The Ass > NG - No Good > Feel free to add any that you feel to be significant. RTFM - Read The F*cking Manual NB - Nota Bene ROFL - Rolling On Floor, Laughing ROFLMAO - Rolling On Floor, Laughing My Ass Off IANAL - I Am Not A Lawyer -- Eric Dittman dittman@dittman.net Check out the DEC Enthusiasts Club at http://www.dittman.net/ From spc at conman.org Mon Oct 29 01:51:57 2001 From: spc at conman.org (Sean 'Captain Napalm' Conner) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:08 2005 Subject: [OT] New toy... In-Reply-To: <3BDCF8DB.9B3B993B@verizon.net> from "Ian Koller" at Oct 29, 2001 01:36:11 AM Message-ID: <200110290751.CAA21941@conman.org> It was thus said that the Great Ian Koller once stated: > > can anyone fill in the blanks here ... Only filling in the ones that are blank and that I know. Other's deleted for space reasons: > IOW - in other words > AFAIK - as far as I know > ISTR - it stands to reason (I'm guessing here) > TMK - to my knowledge > YMMV - your milage may vary (used in the US on car commercials when distance per unit of gasoline) > PITA - pain in the ass (or a type of very flat breat from the Middle East) > NG - no good? No go? -spc (TLAs, ETLAs, it's all alphabet soup ... ) From dittman at dittman.net Mon Oct 29 01:53:13 2001 From: dittman at dittman.net (Eric Dittman) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:08 2005 Subject: TU81+ spooks (was: Re: first step getting VAX 6000-400 booted ...) In-Reply-To: <3BDCF4A4.6070404@aurora.regenstrief.org> from "Gunther Schadow" at Oct 29, 2001 01:18:12 AM Message-ID: <200110290753.f9T7rD118572@narnia.int.dittman.net> > My VMS 5.4 does detect the TU81 just fine, calls it MUB0 and > allows me to mount it and write files to it. I think I have > now a bootable 9-track reel with at least the first 10 > files of the Ultrix 4.1 bootable tape ready to go with all > blocksizes as required. It was fun writing! If you could write to the TU81 from VMS then the drive should be working fine. > So I tried checking for the TU81's unit number (may be it's > MU1 or MU4 or MU213, who knows? First thing is when I power > up the TU81 it shows 000 on the front panel, but as soon > as it is initialized the display remains blank. So, perhaps > it has no unit number set at all? The drive is unit 0, since VMS sees it as MUB0. -- Eric Dittman dittman@dittman.net Check out the DEC Enthusiasts Club at http://www.dittman.net/ From vance at ikickass.org Mon Oct 29 01:56:04 2001 From: vance at ikickass.org (One Without Reason) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:08 2005 Subject: [OT] New toy... In-Reply-To: <3BDD0220.E67BCB7B@eoni.com> Message-ID: > > IMHO - in my humble opinion > > IMO - in my opinion > > IIRC - if I recall correctly ? > > OTOH - on the other hand > > FYI - for your information > > IOW - In Other Words > > FWIW - for what it's worth > > AFAIK - as far as I know > > WRT - with respect/regards to > > ISTR - I seem to recall > > TMK - > > ISTR - I seem to recall > > SAS - > > FAE - > > FA - > > DIY - Do it yourself > > YMMV - Your mileage may vary > > HMMV - His mileage may vary > > ECO - Engineering Change Order ? > > AAMAF - > > PITA - pain in the ass > > IPA - > > TIA - Thanks In Advance > > NG - no good (or NFG) > > NAOA - Not An Official Acronym > > TTBOMK - to the best of my knowledge > My favorite? TANSTAAFL - there ain't no such thing as a free lunch There's always ROFLMAOWMCOMN. Rolling On the Floor Laughing My Ass Off With Milk Coming Out My Nose. Peace... Sridhar From howlee at dingoblue.net.au Mon Oct 29 01:56:13 2001 From: howlee at dingoblue.net.au (Howie) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:08 2005 Subject: [OT] New toy... References: <200110290124.OAA09126@s454.cosc.canterbury.ac.nz> <3BDCF8DB.9B3B993B@verizon.net> Message-ID: <004601c1604f$310d1b70$405b8ec6@howard> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Ian Koller" To: ; "Greg Ewing" Sent: Monday, October 29, 2001 2:36 PM Subject: Re: [OT] New toy... > > speaking of ... > > > To those dismayed at the mangulations of language being > > used by some people in email these days, this just goes > > to show that there's nothing new under the sun. :-) > > can anyone fill in the blanks here ... > > IMHO - in my humble opinion > IMO - in my opinion > IIRC - if I recall correctly ? > OTOH - on the other hand > FYI - for your information > IOW - IN OTHER WORDS > FWIW - for what it's worth > AFAIK - AS FAR AS I KNOW > WRT - with respect/regards to > ISTR - > TMK - > ISTR - > SAS - > FAE - > FA - FUCK ALL (IN AUSTRALIA ANYWAY :-)) > DIY - Do it yourself > YMMV - YOUR MILAGE MAY VARY > HMMV - > ECO - Engineering Change Order ? > AAMAF - > PITA - > IPA - > TIA - Thanks In Advance > NG - NO GOOD > NAOA - Not An Official Acronym > TTBOMK - to the best of my knowledge > > I hate to admit it, but I haven't figured some of these out. > And just maybe someone else hasn't either? but wouldn't want > to be associated with asking any stupid questions? > > Feel free to add any that you feel to be significant. > > > > > > Greg Ewing wrote: > > > > John Lawson: > > > > > FB OM YR SIGS 599 RPT 599 QSL VIA BURO TNX ES 73 DE KB6SCO > > > > pete@dunnington.u-net.com (Pete Turnbull): > > > > > It's (mostly standard) radio ham CW (continuous wave) abbreviations, used > > > to save keying too much morse. > > > > To those dismayed at the mangulations of language being > > used by some people in email these days, this just goes > > to show that there's nothing new under the sun. :-) > > > > Greg Ewing, Computer Science Dept, +--------------------------------------+ > > University of Canterbury, | A citizen of NewZealandCorp, a | > > Christchurch, New Zealand | wholly-owned subsidiary of USA Inc. | > > greg@cosc.canterbury.ac.nz +--------------------------------------+ > From geoffrob at stmarks.pp.catholic.edu.au Mon Oct 29 01:58:35 2001 From: geoffrob at stmarks.pp.catholic.edu.au (Geoff Roberts) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:08 2005 Subject: TU81+ spooks (was: Re: first step getting VAX 6000-400 booted ...) References: <3BD5B07D.5702C1BA@aurora.regenstrief.org> <3BDCF4A4.6070404@aurora.regenstrief.org> Message-ID: <02ca01c1604f$82f85440$de2c67cb@helpdesk> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Gunther Schadow" Cc: ; Sent: Monday, October 29, 2001 4:48 PM Subject: TU81+ spooks (was: Re: first step getting VAX 6000-400 booted ...) > >>> SHOW ALL > ... > XBI D > 1+ DWMBA/B (2107) 000A > 2+ KLESI-B (0103) 0006 > ... > >>> BOOT /XMI:D /BI:2 Okay, that looks correct. /R5:1008 This is sus. According to my 6000-400 manual Table C-2 R5 Bit functions for Ultrix. 0 Forces ULTRIXBOOT to prompt the user for an image name (Default is VMUNIX) 1 Boots the ULTRIX kernel imag in single-user mode. 3 Must be set and R4 must be 0 16 Must be set. > Initializing system. > ... > Loading system software. > > ?06 Halt instruction executed in kernel mode. > PC = 200D7264 > SAVPSL = 041F0600 > ISP = 0003FBB8 > > ?3D Error initializing I/O device > > Bootstrap failed due to previous error. > >>> > > ans this goes all too fast certainly the tape never starts > moving before the error. This is an Ultrix tape? You have threaded and LOADED the tape right? And the machine is online? The BOT, ONLINE and LOGIC ON leds are lit? The error basically means the device you are trying to access doesn't respond or isn't there. I think you have the device name wrong, just looking in book to try and see what it should be. It doesn't actually SAY you can boot from a TU81, but it doesn't say you can't either. > So I tried checking for the TU81's unit number (may be it's > MU1 or MU4 or MU213, who knows? First thing is when I power > up the TU81 it shows 000 on the front panel, but as soon > as it is initialized the display remains blank. So, perhaps > it has no unit number set at all? I don't think it has one, mine shows under VMS as ENIGMA$MUA0 That certainly how mine behaves. Have you tried to boot from MUA0 instead of MU0? The TK70 is CSA1 so that could be it. Not sure what else it could be off hand, will have a closer look at the boot flags, might be something special needed for tape. Never actually done a tape boot, boot flags look sus for ultrix though. Cheers Geoff Roberts Computer Systems Manager Saint Mark's College Port Pirie, South Australia geoffrob@stmarks.pp.catholic.edu.au ICQ 1970476 From mikeford at socal.rr.com Mon Oct 29 01:44:13 2001 From: mikeford at socal.rr.com (Mike Ford) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:08 2005 Subject: OT: Playstation 2 opinion? In-Reply-To: <4.1.20011027132940.00baa100@206.231.8.2> Message-ID: >Please reply OFF list since this is decidedly off topic. I figure there are PS2 is last year, by Xmas all his friends will be talking about Xbox and GameCube. We have N64, and I resisted forever getting one, and relented only as the price dropped to about $150 with a game (he just HAD to have Zelda). Keep in mind this is a razor blade industry, regardless of the high price of the console, the real money and costs will be in games etc. My recommendation is to forget the console, and put together a gaming PC. Better intelligence to the games, and immensely greater selection and usefullness. From mikeford at socal.rr.com Mon Oct 29 01:25:58 2001 From: mikeford at socal.rr.com (Mike Ford) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:08 2005 Subject: [OT] New toy... In-Reply-To: <3BDCF8DB.9B3B993B@verizon.net> References: <200110290124.OAA09126@s454.cosc.canterbury.ac.nz> Message-ID: >speaking of ... > >> To those dismayed at the mangulations of language being >> used by some people in email these days, this just goes >> to show that there's nothing new under the sun. :-) > >can anyone fill in the blanks here ... > >IMHO - in my humble opinion >IMO - in my opinion >IIRC - if I recall correctly ? >OTOH - on the other hand >FYI - for your information >IOW - In Other Words >FWIW - for what it's worth >AFAIK - As Far as I know >WRT - with respect/regards to >ISTR - I seem to remember >TMK - >ISTR - still I seem to remember >SAS - >FAE - >FA - >DIY - Do it yourself >YMMV - Your Mileage May Vary >HMMV - >ECO - Engineering Change Order ? >AAMAF - >PITA - Pain In The Ass >IPA - >TIA - Thanks In Advance >NG - >NAOA - Not An Official Acronym >TTBOMK - to the best of my knowledge In no time somebody is bound to post the URL to some master list. From abrahama at netvision.net.il Mon Oct 29 03:42:34 2001 From: abrahama at netvision.net.il (arie abraham) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:08 2005 Subject: HP 85 stuff Message-ID: <000601c1605e$0adc8120$c18efea9@arie> we are looking to buy 30-50 pcs 3m dc-100a magnetic tape cartridge. please advise if you can recomaned us from where to buy. best rgds a. abraham ab-ad tech&eng ltd israel tel: 972-9-7660932 fax: 972-9-7660933 e-mail: abrahama@netvision.net.il -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20011029/f659d085/attachment.html From bpope at wordstock.com Mon Oct 29 07:43:49 2001 From: bpope at wordstock.com (Bryan Pope) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:08 2005 Subject: email/browser for DOS or C64/128? In-Reply-To: <000d01c15f7f$d9569520$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> from "Richard Erlacher" at Oct 28, 01 01:12:05 am Message-ID: <200110291343.IAA06196@wordstock.com> Check out http://www.cc65.org And for a free TCP/IP implementation, check out: http://dunkels.com/adam/uip/ This is compiled under cc65. Cheers, Bryan Pope From LFessen106 at aol.com Mon Oct 29 07:49:06 2001 From: LFessen106 at aol.com (LFessen106@aol.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:09 2005 Subject: Do we have a VAX organization? Message-ID: <5f.1cec2ffb.290eb852@aol.com> I think this sort of thing would be great! -Linc Fessenden In The Beginning there was nothing, which exploded - Yeah right... Calculating in binary code is as easy as 01,10,11. From edick at idcomm.com Mon Oct 29 08:41:28 2001 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:09 2005 Subject: [OT] New toy... References: <200110290124.OAA09126@s454.cosc.canterbury.ac.nz> <3BDCF8DB.9B3B993B@verizon.net> Message-ID: <001d01c16087$cb460660$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> see below, plz. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Ian Koller" To: ; "Greg Ewing" Sent: Sunday, October 28, 2001 11:36 PM Subject: Re: [OT] New toy... > > speaking of ... > > > To those dismayed at the mangulations of language being > > used by some people in email these days, this just goes > > to show that there's nothing new under the sun. :-) > > can anyone fill in the blanks here ... > > IMHO - in my humble opinion > IMO - in my opinion > IIRC - if I recall correctly ? > OTOH - on the other hand > FYI - for your information > IOW - In other words > FWIW - for what it's worth > AFAIK - as far as I know > WRT - with respect/regards to > ISTR - I seem to recall > TMK - to my knowledge > SAS - > FAE - > FA - > DIY - Do it yourself > YMMV - your mileage may vary > HMMV - his mileage may vary (?) > ECO - Engineering Change Order ? > AAMAF - > PITA - pain in the *ss > IPA - > TIA - Thanks In Advance > NG - news group > NAOA - Not An Official Acronym > TTBOMK - to the best of my knowledge > > I hate to admit it, but I haven't figured some of these out. > And just maybe someone else hasn't either? but wouldn't want > to be associated with asking any stupid questions? > Yes, better to ask frame the question as a smart one. Of course the only really stupid question is the one that one's afraid to ask. > > Feel free to add any that you feel to be significant. > > > Greg Ewing wrote: > > > > John Lawson: > > > > > FB OM YR SIGS 599 RPT 599 QSL VIA BURO TNX ES 73 DE KB6SCO > > > > pete@dunnington.u-net.com (Pete Turnbull): > > > > > It's (mostly standard) radio ham CW (continuous wave) abbreviations, used > > > to save keying too much morse. > > > > To those dismayed at the mangulations of language being > > used by some people in email these days, this just goes > > to show that there's nothing new under the sun. :-) > I heard some pretty good ones on the radio a day or two ago, in the context of text messaging via cellphone. I'd say things will become more cryptic if that's any indication. > > > Greg Ewing, Computer Science Dept, +--------------------------------------+ > > University of Canterbury, | A citizen of NewZealandCorp, a | > > Christchurch, New Zealand | wholly-owned subsidiary of USA Inc. | > > greg@cosc.canterbury.ac.nz +--------------------------------------+ > > From dpeschel at eskimo.com Mon Oct 29 08:56:16 2001 From: dpeschel at eskimo.com (Derek Peschel) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:09 2005 Subject: [OT] New toy... In-Reply-To: <005a01c16026$5959b6c0$63f09a8d@ajp166>; from ajp166@bellatlantic.net on Sun, Oct 28, 2001 at 10:03:49PM -0500 References: <005a01c16026$5959b6c0$63f09a8d@ajp166> Message-ID: <20011029065616.A29024@eskimo.eskimo.com> On Sun, Oct 28, 2001 at 10:03:49PM -0500, ajp166 wrote: > All of those are sent as one character. > > If you want to see a lot of abbreveated text read a sequence report > as given for the aviation community. > > FCST CLDY TO BKN CLNG TO 10K.... Of course this would have been > sent using ASR33 with 45 or 75 speed gears. Surely the weather reports are more abbreviated on the Murray-code machines? After all, they had an entire character set devoted to weather reports (and another for stock quotes). -- Derek From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Mon Oct 29 07:20:36 2001 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (Ben Franchuk) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:09 2005 Subject: Almost on topic - Cassette I/O References: Message-ID: <3BDD57A4.65C27060@jetnet.ab.ca> Kevin Murrell wrote: > > The Nascom II single board Z80 machine included a simple but reliable > cassette interface. The circuit diagrams are online at > http://www.nascomhomepage.com/pdf/Nascom2.pdf > That is ( or was ) a very nice computer. The cassette interface is almost exactly what I am looking for. Now I just have to figure out exactly what they are doing.:) Thanks. Ben Franchuk. -- Standard Disclaimer : 97% speculation 2% bad grammar 1% facts. "Pre-historic Cpu's" http://www.jetnet.ab.ca/users/bfranchuk Now with schematics. From wrm at ccii.co.za Mon Oct 29 09:46:24 2001 From: wrm at ccii.co.za (Wouter de Waal) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:09 2005 Subject: Osborne 1 (was: OT :-) Message-ID: <200110291546.RAA27640@ccii.co.za> Hi again all Tony asks: >Why suspect the FDC? This soulds like nothing more than a shorted or >leaky keyswitch. Have yoy taken the keyboard apart to check for this yet. When I unplug the keyboard and short out what I think is Enter (OK, maybe it's something else) the screen still refreshes, no lights on the floppy drives. >leaky (about 100k between the pins when the key is not pressed). This >will confuse some keyboard controller circuits. At least 3 of the switches seem to be dead shorts. And it's an assemble-once keyboard, the keys have little plastic pins that are melted to keep the whole affair together. Wouter ZS1KE for anyone interested www.retro.co.za From mythtech at Mac.com Mon Oct 29 09:49:57 2001 From: mythtech at Mac.com (Chris) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:09 2005 Subject: ATEX? Message-ID: >This wouldn't happen to have been the Bergen Record... >Used to work for one of their papers as a reporter back before I got into >PDP11's at DEC. Why yes, yes it is the Bergen Record. Right now my project has been put on hold. My friend asked the IT staff about a manual this morning, and they swore up and down that it doesn't matter, the newer version of ATEX will be going online in January. He doubts it, as it seems EVERYTHING they promise is about a year late before it actually gets in place. But until he can find a better person to talk to, there isn't much more I can do. However, I will keep my ears open, if I understand the Atex systems from their web site, the new system will no longer use the PDP-11 that the current one is based off. So one (or more? Atex implies that there may be multiples chained together) may be available soon. I don't have any pull down there to get them, but maybe I can get my friend to find someone I can talk to that does have some say in their disposal. -chris From r_beaudry at hotmail.com Mon Oct 29 09:52:07 2001 From: r_beaudry at hotmail.com (Rich Beaudry) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:09 2005 Subject: [OT] New toy... Message-ID: >can anyone fill in the blanks here ... >FA - I've seen (and used) "FA" and "FS" in USENET posting subjects to warn the reader that an item is about to be advertised "For Auction" or "For Sale".... Rich B. "They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety." -- Ben Franklin From DAW at yalepress3.unipress.yale.edu Mon Oct 29 10:17:09 2001 From: DAW at yalepress3.unipress.yale.edu (David Woyciesjes) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:09 2005 Subject: How to disassemble an HSC90? Message-ID: <9011A52E011ED311B4280004AC1BA615014671CC@yalepress3.unipress.yale.edu> Are the sdies getting stuck on wheel brackets that stick out too far? A DEC rack I have for a tape drive had that problem. The brackets by the two back wheels stick out about 1/8". Enough to stop the side panel from lifting neatly up... --- David A Woyciesjes --- C & IS Support Specialist --- Yale University Press --- mailto:david.woyciesjes@yale.edu --- (203) 432-0953 --- ICQ # - 905818 ! -----Original Message----- ! From: Gunther Schadow [mailto:gunther@aurora.regenstrief.org] ! Sent: Friday, October 26, 2001 11:11 PM ! To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org ! Subject: How to disassemble an HSC90? ! ! ! Hi, ! ! has anyone of you ever disassembled an HSC cabinet? I am looking ! pretty stupid right now. It's not the first piece of DEC iron ! equipment that I have moved in pieces, I did two VAX6000 and one ! TU81+. But this one is different. While being half-height like the ! TU81, it's quite a bit deeper. The side-walls appear to be just ! locked at the bottom and then hooked such that one can lift it ! up and off, like the TU81's side walls. However, they do not move ! no matter how hard I try. I don't find any screws holding them, ! though. And with the sidewalls on, I cannot remove the top-cover ! either. ! ! So, I was hoping I could at least take it into two pieces by ! moving the whole core out in one piece. Apparently that central ! unit is just screwed on the front, like a rack-mount device. ! Indeed I can move it out quite far. But then it stops at a ! protruding piece of the backplane circuit board! There seems ! to be no way to move that core all the way out other than by ! removing the backplane circuite board. And I'm not going to do ! that. ! ! Other DEC equipment was quite straight forward to disassemble, ! but this one beats the auto-assembies in difficulty level. ! I appreciate every advice. My suspicion is that the sidewalls ! are indeed removable, but mine are just stuck. Someone seen ! it? ! ! regards ! -Gunther ! ! -- ! Gunther Schadow, M.D., Ph.D. ! gschadow@regenstrief.org ! Medical Information Scientist Regenstrief Institute for ! Health Care ! Adjunct Assistant Professor Indiana University School ! of Medicine ! tel:1(317)630-7960 http://aurora.regenstrief.org From optimus at canit.se Mon Oct 29 10:15:43 2001 From: optimus at canit.se (Iggy Drougge) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:09 2005 Subject: email/browser for DOS or C64/128? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <565.702T2150T10355491optimus@canit.se> Jeff Hellige skrev: >>128 and 128D to be exact. I love the 128D, too bad Commodore waited so long >>to finally get it right. > I tend to use 'C-128' to refer to either of them, though the >128D is different in some respects. I don't believe there's much, if >anything, that requires one over the other. I also like the 128D but >have often wondered why they used such a hefty connector for the >keyboard. Because they didn't have the sense to serialise the keyboard data, I suppose. OTOH, they keyboard is very light for its age. -- En ligne avec Thor 2.6a. From optimus at canit.se Mon Oct 29 10:28:15 2001 From: optimus at canit.se (Iggy Drougge) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:09 2005 Subject: Price guide for vintage computers In-Reply-To: <3BDCD01F.E6C35D70@mail.verizon.net> Message-ID: <3180.702T750T10484311optimus@canit.se> Eric Chomko skrev: >Ernest wrote: >> Has anyone considered that creating a price guide might do more harm than >> good. What do you think that thrift shops (for example) would do if they >> had a price guide? Jack their prices up to match most likely, on items that >> they >Price guides don't buy or see things, people do. If the thift shop or anyone >else for that matter marks something and nobody buys it, then the guide is >wrong. >The guide is just a guide, it's goal is to be accurate not allow you to buy >things >cheaply or have someone else sell too high. I've seen what price guides have done to other markets. They've establisheda branch of dealers who are in it for the money. I don't like that. >> might have sold for less if they didn't know better. I guess my point is >> that having a price guide available online might lead to higher prices. I >Is that so bad? Don't you want your collection to go up in value? Why would I want that? It's a collection of old computers, not an investment. >> was able to buy a valiant turtle robot for a fraction of what it was worth >> because the seller had no idea of it's value. Every collector has similar >> stories, and while those things would still happen from time to time, a >> price guide would certainly reduce the chances -especially with software. >> If >So you would rather keep people naive so you can get better deals? Any true >market has a buy/sell spread. Why would you want to prevent classic computers >from being a real market? Why would I want a market? My market is the fleamarket. Classic computers are junk to most people, and since there is no real financial value in the market even now, why would anyone desire to artifically induce higher prices? >> the price guide lists certain things as rare and more valueable, then the >> seller will likely jack up his asking price. On the other hand, what if the >> seller had no idea? The chances are better for collectors to get a "good" >> deal. It's just something to consider. >One day your collectionwill be sold off, as you can't take it with you. Don't >you want to get the most from your collection/investment? I'm not as greedy as some people. If I got my VAX cheaply, so should others. So I don't try to get as much as possible, only what's a nice price. Since there is a computer collecting community, what is there to worry about? If you've paid a nice price, there's no reason why you shouldn't get your "investment" back when someone else on this list buys it off you, is there? Price guides and market thinking will just make people greedy, thinking that they didn't get the best possible deal (is that so bloody important?) and establish a market for dealers who will get to the surplus shops, fleamarkets, giveaways and junkyards before us. I have no financial stake in my collection, it's for fun, not investment. There are a lot of options in case you're looking for investments, and they require neither floor space nor electricity. -- En ligne avec Thor 2.6a. SCSI is *NOT* magic. There are *fundamental technical reasons* why it is necessary to sacrifice a young goat to your SCSI chain now and then. -- John Woods From cmcmanis at mcmanis.com Mon Oct 29 10:48:29 2001 From: cmcmanis at mcmanis.com (Chuck McManis) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:09 2005 Subject: Classic Gaming OT and OT / Re: OT: Playstation 2 opinion? In-Reply-To: References: <4.1.20011027132940.00baa100@206.231.8.2> Message-ID: <5.0.0.25.2.20011029083438.02a4b250@209.185.79.193> On Topic and Off Topic :-) At 11:44 PM 10/28/01 -0800, it was written: >PS2 is last year, by Xmas all his friends will be talking about Xbox and >GameCube. We have N64, and I resisted forever getting one, and relented >only as the price dropped to about $150 with a game (he just HAD to have >Zelda). Keep in mind this is a razor blade industry, regardless of the high >price of the console, the real money and costs will be in games etc. Off topic part: I was originally quite excited by the Xbox, I still think the _hardware_ is cool, but the fact that Microsoft will be in charge of the software makes me cringe. The first dedicated console that crashes not because of the games :-( If I had to buy one this year I'd go with the PSTwo. Best of the current lot, if I could get full docs and write my own software, I'd get the Xbox. >My recommendation is to forget the console, and put together a gaming PC. >Better intelligence to the games, and immensely greater selection and >usefullness. On topic part: This will basically cost 10x as much in real terms and be harder to maintain. Unless you use it only for games and even then games from different years won't work on it. So how many people collect gaming environments? It seems that classic computers go back to the early days of the C-64 vs Atari console wars. Remember the advertisements where the young guy is sitting in a job interview and the interviewer says, "So you can score 200,000 in space donuts and get to the 15th level in maze wars, but what else can you do?" and then they offer that if your kid said, "I can hack a C64" they would hire him. (they don't really say that, they imply programming ability :-) But I've been a gamer as long as I've been a programmer (which is waaay too long ;-) and witnessing the folks who got the original 4.2BSD image of the game Haunt running under NetBSD/VAX was an example of the extremes folks would like to get to, to recreate gaming experiences. All the gaming magazines (especially the ones that are left) wax rhapsodic about the "good old days" when polygon count and particle physics weren't as important as game play. There are some classic computer games out there (SpaceWar being perhaps the most famous) that need preserving. --Chuck From ken at seefried.com Mon Oct 29 11:01:30 2001 From: ken at seefried.com (Ken Seefried) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:09 2005 Subject: VLB SCSI? (really 64-bit PCI & 100Mb ISA) In-Reply-To: <200110291445.IAA86899@opal.tseinc.com> References: <200110291445.IAA86899@opal.tseinc.com> Message-ID: <20011029170130.16598.qmail@mail.seefried.com> Wrapping up a few things here... > 3Com 3C515. Of course, you don't get full bandwidth out of it, but if you really, really have to get an ISA-only box on a 100Mb network, it does work quite well. And there's a Linux driver :-). FWIW...the HP ISA 100Mb card is probably a 100baseVG card, which requires a special hub. > A typical example is the 64-bit PCI. I've seen several desirable > cards offered for the 64-bit PCI, yet I've not seen even ONE advertised > motherboard that actually supports 64-bit PCI. Hmm...there are a bunch, actually. As far as motherboards (as in, not systems) that you can run out to web sites and buy: - Intel boards based on ServerWorks and i860 have them, and they showed up occasionally on earlier Xeon boards - Sun ATX form factor UltraSPARC boards have them - Later Alpha ATX form factor boards have them - At least one version of the Motorola MTX PowerPC ATX motherboard has them (well...okay...this one is pretty obscure) - Finally...my odd/rare Galileo MIPS-based system has them...:-) > From what I've read, 32-bit PCI boards work in a > 64-bit slot, yet nobody seems to be offering that feature in their > advertisement. I'd guess that's because it's cheaper/easier to > diverge slightly from the published standard in making these products, > hence they don't make claims about compatibility. Umm...not sure what you are trying to say. As far as I know 32-bit & 64-bit interoperability *is* part of the the PCI standard, and works vice versa. In fact, I'm pretty sure per the standard, there is interoperability between 33MHz and 66MHz cards. You really only get locked out with 5v v. 3.3v issues. In other works, a card that claims PCI 2.1 compliance will interoperate. Ken From techno at dsuper.net Mon Oct 29 12:06:46 2001 From: techno at dsuper.net (Doug Taylor) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:09 2005 Subject: Is Joe Around Here(info MDS225) Message-ID: <007401c160a4$7fe67fc0$244794d1@dsuper.net> Hi there ... After reading Joes Intel MDS page I was intrigued. I have a MDS 225 Series III , but I have no OS or software. I need help in getting it going. It starts up O.K. into the diag ROM but thats it. Is there a way for me to get ISIS III for it? Also, what exactly CPM (GENERIC) will work on it? Yours truly.. Doug Taylor (Techno) Sysop of the "Dead On Arrival BBS" Telnet://doabbs.dynip.com http://www-mtl.look.ca/~techno techno@dsuper.net From DAW at yalepress3.unipress.yale.edu Mon Oct 29 11:13:14 2001 From: DAW at yalepress3.unipress.yale.edu (David Woyciesjes) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:09 2005 Subject: [OT] New toy... Message-ID: <9011A52E011ED311B4280004AC1BA615014671CD@yalepress3.unipress.yale.edu> ! > ISTR - it stands to reason (I'm guessing here) I thought this was " I Seem To Recall(Remember)" --- David A Woyciesjes --- C & IS Support Specialist --- Yale University Press --- mailto:david.woyciesjes@yale.edu --- (203) 432-0953 --- ICQ # - 905818 From DAW at yalepress3.unipress.yale.edu Mon Oct 29 11:16:11 2001 From: DAW at yalepress3.unipress.yale.edu (David Woyciesjes) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:09 2005 Subject: [OT] New toy... Message-ID: <9011A52E011ED311B4280004AC1BA615014671CE@yalepress3.unipress.yale.edu> ..... ! >NAOA - Not An Official Acronym ! >TTBOMK - to the best of my knowledge ! ! In no time somebody is bound to post the URL to some master list. ! ! You mean like this? :-) http://www.acronymfinder.com/ --- David A Woyciesjes --- C & IS Support Specialist --- Yale University Press --- mailto:david.woyciesjes@yale.edu --- (203) 432-0953 --- ICQ # - 905818 From bbrown at harper.cc.il.us Mon Oct 29 11:11:52 2001 From: bbrown at harper.cc.il.us (Bob Brown) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:09 2005 Subject: Price guide for vintage computers In-Reply-To: <3180.702T750T10484311optimus@canit.se> References: <3180.702T750T10484311optimus@canit.se> Message-ID: Instead of a price guide, how bout a spotting/indentification guide with info on identifying computers and components and options without any pricing info? -Bob bbrown@harper.cc.il.us #### #### Bob Brown - KB9LFR Harper Community College ## ## ## Systems Administrator Palatine IL USA #### #### Saved by grace From jhellige at earthlink.net Mon Oct 29 10:16:06 2001 From: jhellige at earthlink.net (Jeff Hellige) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:09 2005 Subject: Classic Gaming OT and OT / Re: OT: Playstation 2 opinion? In-Reply-To: <5.0.0.25.2.20011029083438.02a4b250@209.185.79.193> References: <4.1.20011027132940.00baa100@206.231.8.2> <5.0.0.25.2.20011029083438.02a4b250@209.185.79.193> Message-ID: <01Oct29.122747est.119043@gateway.mediacen.navy.mil> >So how many people collect gaming environments? It seems that >classic computers go back to the early days of the C-64 vs Atari >console wars. The early consoles are cool. It doesn't require ultra hi-res 3D graphics and a new machine to be a fun game. I still occasionally enjoy a good game of 'Chuck Yeagers AFT' or Pong. In fact, the first time I saw AFT it was being played on a C-64 and then I went out and got the CGA/TGA version. I just wish I had the room for some of my favorite classic arcade games, such as Zaxxon. Until then I'll be happy with my various home consoles and playing the arcade games on MAME. Jeff -- Home of the TRS-80 Model 2000 FAQ File http://www.cchaven.com http://www.geocities.com/siliconvalley/lakes/6757 From mhstein at usa.net Mon Oct 29 11:18:30 2001 From: mhstein at usa.net (M H Stein) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:09 2005 Subject: Almost on topic - Cassette I/O Message-ID: <01C16073.EDE1FA80@mse-d03> Howdy to a fellow Canuck no doubt digging the long underwear out of the closet in preparation for winter... Might have something for ya; was just having one last look through some old Byte mags pulling out Cromemco ads before tossing 'em, and in July '76 there is a construction article for a fast cassette interface. Can scan it for ya if you're interested. Might also be able to find some others, was a popular project in those days. Can also ship you a Burroughs L series digital cassette drive (with some docs) if you're up to the challenge of interfacing it :) Also have tech info on some old computers (e.g. RS M100, AIM65) using cassette I/O. See on your web site you're also looking for PPT stuff; might even have something for ya in that department (Toronto area, though). While on the subject, anybody interested in an SwTPc AC-30 cassette interface? Just happen to have one; in fact, the reason I remembered that issue of Byte is 'cause the AC-30 is advertised on the inside front cover. mike ---------------Original Message------------------ Date: Sun, 28 Oct 2001 11:58:38 -0700 From: Ben Franchuk Subject: Almost on topic - Cassette I/O I am building a FPGA ( Field programmable gate array ) computer in the style of the early computers that had a front panel and TTY for I/O. While I don't have have a front panel working the Hardware serial bootstrap does work on my prototype. Since I have a few LOGIC cells left in my FPGA to play with I was thinking adding a cassette interface. Does anybody know of schematics on the web that I can get ideas from. Ben Franchuk. - -- Standard Disclaimer : 97% speculation 2% bad grammar 1% facts. "Pre-historic Cpu's" http://www.jetnet.ab.ca/users/bfranchuk Now with schematics. From msell at ontimesupport.com Mon Oct 29 11:19:57 2001 From: msell at ontimesupport.com (Matthew Sell) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:09 2005 Subject: Classic Gaming OT and OT / Re: OT: Playstation 2 opinion? In-Reply-To: <5.0.0.25.2.20011029083438.02a4b250@209.185.79.193> References: <4.1.20011027132940.00baa100@206.231.8.2> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20011029111713.027d7150@127.0.0.1> I have three versions of the Atari 2600 (six-switch, four-switch, and the Sears Tele-Games), and a 7800 that I play regularly. I also collect the full-size arcade machines. It's very interesting for games like Ms Pac Man, where I own the 2600, 7800, Atari 8-bit, and C-64 versions, and the real thing...... - Matt >So how many people collect gaming environments? It seems that classic >computers go back to the early days of the C-64 vs Atari console wars. >Remember the advertisements where the young guy is sitting in a job >interview and the interviewer says, "So you can score 200,000 in space >donuts and get to the 15th level in maze wars, but what else can you do?" >and then they offer that if your kid said, "I can hack a C64" they would >hire him. (they don't really say that, they imply programming ability :-) > >But I've been a gamer as long as I've been a programmer (which is waaay >too long ;-) and witnessing the folks who got the original 4.2BSD image of >the game Haunt running under NetBSD/VAX was an example of the extremes >folks would like to get to, to recreate gaming experiences. > >All the gaming magazines (especially the ones that are left) wax rhapsodic >about the "good old days" when polygon count and particle physics weren't >as important as game play. There are some classic computer games out there >(SpaceWar being perhaps the most famous) that need preserving. > >--Chuck Matthew Sell Programmer On Time Support, Inc. www.ontimesupport.com (281) 296-6066 Join the Metrology Software discussion group METLIST! http://www.ontimesupport.com/cgi-bin/mojo/mojo.cgi "One World, One Web, One Program" - Microsoft Promotional Ad "Ein Volk, Ein Reich, Ein Fuhrer" - Adolf Hitler Many thanks for this tagline to a fellow RGVAC'er... From mythtech at Mac.com Mon Oct 29 11:38:55 2001 From: mythtech at Mac.com (Chris) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:09 2005 Subject: Classic Gaming OT and OT / Re: OT: Playstation 2 opinion? Message-ID: >So how many people collect gaming environments? I can't say I "collect" them, but more I have a collection of them (and more units gravitate to me from time to time). I have things like an Odessey (the original one with the littel card edge cartridges, and the screen overlays), Atari 2600 (one market one, one prerelease prototype), Intellivision, Stunt Cycle, Odessey 500(? the newer one), NES, Playstation (1001 model with mod chip, and a 9000 without), and an assortment of stand-alone non TV interface things (like a Donkey Kong, Tron, Crazy Climber, and a heap of space war or driving things). I HAD a colecovision (prerelease prototype unit) and an ADAM add-on (also prerelease), but a friend "borrowed" it many years ago, and it never came back (along with half my atari 2600 carts, the prick!). I was supposed to get a Turbo-Graphix 16 and a Turbo Express, but both fell thru (the 16, the owner forgot and threw it out, and the Express, I turned down because it was a Japanese prototype so I couldn't play it, hind sight I have kicked myself ever since, it HAD been one of 3 in the US at the time, and one of 10 in existance! ARGHH!!) I have not yet begun to aquire Arcade Machines, as I just don't have the room, but I did go half on a Tron with my sister (she stores it at her house). -chris From bpope at wordstock.com Mon Oct 29 11:45:44 2001 From: bpope at wordstock.com (Bryan Pope) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:09 2005 Subject: Price guide for vintage computers In-Reply-To: from "Bob Brown" at Oct 29, 01 11:11:52 am Message-ID: <200110291745.MAA21366@wordstock.com> > > Instead of a price guide, how bout a spotting/indentification guide with info > on identifying computers and components and options without any pricing info? his is a already in the works by a list member, Michael Nadeau. How is the book going, Mike? Cheers, Bryan Pope From healyzh at aracnet.com Mon Oct 29 11:48:30 2001 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:09 2005 Subject: OT: Playstation 2 opinion? In-Reply-To: References: <4.1.20011027132940.00baa100@206.231.8.2> Message-ID: >My recommendation is to forget the console, and put together a gaming PC. >Better intelligence to the games, and immensely greater selection and >usefullness. With the PS2 he'll be able to play new games for how many years without upgrading the hardware? OTOH, how often do you need to upgrade a gaming PC to play the latest stuff? I decided consoles were the way to go a few years ago. Zane -- | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator | | healyzh@aracnet.com (primary) | OpenVMS Enthusiast | | | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | PDP-10 Emulation and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | From healyzh at aracnet.com Mon Oct 29 11:57:12 2001 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:09 2005 Subject: Classic Gaming OT and OT / Re: OT: Playstation 2 opinion? In-Reply-To: <5.0.0.25.2.20011029083438.02a4b250@209.185.79.193> References: <4.1.20011027132940.00baa100@206.231.8.2> Message-ID: >So how many people collect gaming environments? It seems that classic >computers go back to the early days of the C-64 vs Atari console wars. Anything classic these days that I get is either DEC, or game console related. For me collecting game consoles and games for them has the advantage of being a hobby I can share with my wife. Come to think of it except for the Apple ][, anything that's 8-bit seems to have only game software in my collection, and I've not collected 8-bit systems for several years. Zane -- | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator | | healyzh@aracnet.com (primary) | OpenVMS Enthusiast | | | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | PDP-10 Emulation and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | From gunther at aurora.regenstrief.org Mon Oct 29 12:00:02 2001 From: gunther at aurora.regenstrief.org (Gunther Schadow) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:09 2005 Subject: VAX6460: VMS 5.4 how to move on? References: <200110290543.f9T5hVP18243@narnia.int.dittman.net> Message-ID: <3BDD9922.5080209@aurora.regenstrief.org> Eric Dittman wrote: >>You have to boot Standalone backup either off tape or a disk. >>It's a bootable version of Backup, essentially a minimal VMS shell with >>embedded backup. >>Only proper way to backup a VMS system disk. How many RA9x drives do you >>have? >> > > Standalone backup can be built on and run from the system disk without > any problems. > > >>You could do a BACKUP/PHYSICAL onto another RA9x drive. Instant system >>disk. >> > > I'd recommend against /PHYSICAL. Instead, BACKUP/IMAGE. > O.K., may be I should keep the disk for now. Soon I will backup to a tape. Seems like this disk isn't full, so may be one or two reels would do for now. What is the correct backup command for VMS to give to back up the whole system disk to (possibly multiple volumes of) tape such that I can wipe out the disk afterwards? Thanks, -Gunther -- Gunther Schadow, M.D., Ph.D. gschadow@regenstrief.org Medical Information Scientist Regenstrief Institute for Health Care Adjunct Assistant Professor Indiana University School of Medicine tel:1(317)630-7960 http://aurora.regenstrief.org From dogas at bellsouth.net Mon Oct 29 11:58:18 2001 From: dogas at bellsouth.net (Mike) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:09 2005 Subject: Is Joe Around Here(info MDS225) References: <007401c160a4$7fe67fc0$244794d1@dsuper.net> Message-ID: <002a01c160a3$4b13d050$0e19d7d1@DOMAIN> From: Doug Taylor > Hi there ... > After reading Joes Intel MDS page I was intrigued. > I have a MDS 225 Series III , but I have no OS or software. I need help in > getting it going. > It starts up O.K. into the diag ROM but thats it. > Is there a way for me to get ISIS III for it? > Also, what exactly CPM (GENERIC) will work on it? Hi Doug, I have that machine among others recently from Joe including his docs and (lotsa but I'll have to check on the Isis iii) software for the MDS, I'll see if I can boot her up and try to help get what you need for yours (or get some help getting mine going ;)) I also picked up peices and parts that I knew or were informed that some of you were interested in and I'll follow up as I catch up. Cheers - Mike: dogas@bellsouth.net From DAW at yalepress3.unipress.yale.edu Mon Oct 29 12:08:46 2001 From: DAW at yalepress3.unipress.yale.edu (David Woyciesjes) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:09 2005 Subject: Price guide for vintage computers Message-ID: <9011A52E011ED311B4280004AC1BA615014671D0@yalepress3.unipress.yale.edu> ! Instead of a price guide, how bout a spotting/indentification ! guide with info ! on identifying computers and components and options without ! any pricing info? ! ! -Bob This would be most helpful. Similar to these hardware references on NetBSD's site... http://www.netbsd.org/Documentation/Hardware/Machines/DEC/vax/ http://www.netbsd.org/Ports/vax/models.html --- David A Woyciesjes --- C & IS Support Specialist --- Yale University Press --- mailto:david.woyciesjes@yale.edu --- (203) 432-0953 --- ICQ # - 905818 From gunther at aurora.regenstrief.org Mon Oct 29 12:11:02 2001 From: gunther at aurora.regenstrief.org (Gunther Schadow) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:09 2005 Subject: TU81+ spooks (was: Re: first step getting VAX 6000-400 booted ...) References: <3BD5B07D.5702C1BA@aurora.regenstrief.org> <3BDCF4A4.6070404@aurora.regenstrief.org> <02ca01c1604f$82f85440$de2c67cb@helpdesk> Message-ID: <3BDD9BB6.1040004@aurora.regenstrief.org> > This is an Ultrix tape? You have threaded and LOADED the tape right? And > the machine is online? > The BOT, ONLINE and LOGIC ON leds are lit? yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, and yes :-) > The error basically means the device you are trying to access doesn't > respond or isn't there. yes, but why? > I think you have the device name wrong, just looking in book to try and see > what it should be. ... >>So I tried checking for the TU81's unit number (may be it's >>MU1 or MU4 or MU213, who knows? First thing is when I power >>up the TU81 it shows 000 on the front panel, but as soon >>as it is initialized the display remains blank. So, perhaps >>it has no unit number set at all? >> > > I don't think it has one, mine shows under VMS as ENIGMA$MUA0 > That certainly how mine behaves. Have you tried to boot from MUA0 instead > of MU0? > The TK70 is CSA1 so that could be it. I did try MUB0 (because that's how VMS calls it for me), but that doesn't work. I just like VMS calls my disk DUA0 but to boot from it I have to call it just DU0. So MU0 it should be. The CSA1 is weird, because it's really MUC6 for VMS, and it should be another MU. [[[[BTW: In fact the CSA1 is more like a named boot specification because >>> BOOT CSA1 works just fine, so does >>> BOOT /XMI:D /BI:6 CSA1 but when I dod >>> SET BOOT TAPE /XMI:D /BI:6 CSA1 >>> BOOT TAPE it barks to me with illegal boot specification after initializing. But that's just an aside.]]]] > It doesn't actually SAY you can boot from a TU81, but it doesn't say you > can't either. > Not sure what else it could be off hand, will have a closer look at the boot > flags, might be something special needed for tape. > Never actually done a tape boot, boot flags look sus for ultrix though. Yes, that would be the crucial question? Can you even boot from TU81+. Given the rest of the orthogonal DEC design, I would be highly surprized if one could not. Also, I'm pretty sure that BSD used to be distributed on 9-track, bootable, presumably. But I would appreciate a confirmation of this. If someone could test copying a bootable TK to TU and then try TU booting? Meanwhile I have a lead on the E77 that I get when I want to set the TU unit number. So, this may be the cause of the unresponsiveness at boot time. Thanks, -Gunther -- Gunther Schadow, M.D., Ph.D. gschadow@regenstrief.org Medical Information Scientist Regenstrief Institute for Health Care Adjunct Assistant Professor Indiana University School of Medicine tel:1(317)630-7960 http://aurora.regenstrief.org From cisin at xenosoft.com Mon Oct 29 12:14:07 2001 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin (XenoSoft)) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:09 2005 Subject: Acronyms (was: [OT] New toy... In-Reply-To: <3BDCF8DB.9B3B993B@verizon.net> Message-ID: Almost all of them ARE more than a decade old, therefore, not necessarily OFF-TOPIC. > can anyone fill in the blanks here ... > IOW - IN OTHER WORDS > AFAIK - AS FAR AS I KNOW > ISTR - I SEEM TO RECALL > TMK - > ISTR - I SEEM TO REMEMBER (as differentiated from the one 2 above) > SAS - SASE - SELF ADDRESSED STAMPED ENVELOPE > FAE - > FA - FSOT - FOR SALE OR TRADE > YMMV - YOUR MILEAGE MAY VARY > HMMV - > AAMAF - > PITA - PAIN IN THE ASS (PC INDUSTRY TRADE ASSOCIATINS?) > IPA - > NG - NO GOOD NFG - NO FUCKING GOOD > NAOA - Not An Official Acronym TLA - THREE LETTER ACRONYM TLA - THREE LETTER AGENCY (CIA, FBI, NSA, ...) From cisin at xenosoft.com Mon Oct 29 12:15:01 2001 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin (XenoSoft)) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:09 2005 Subject: [OT] New toy... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: > In no time somebody is bound to post the URL to some master list. INTSIBTPTUTSML From vze2wsvr at verizon.net Mon Oct 29 12:18:29 2001 From: vze2wsvr at verizon.net (Eric Chomko) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:09 2005 Subject: Price guide for vintage computers References: <3180.702T750T10484311optimus@canit.se> Message-ID: <3BDD9D74.BED611D0@verizon.net> Iggy Drougge wrote: > Eric Chomko skrev: > > >Ernest wrote: > > >> Has anyone considered that creating a price guide might do more harm than > >> good. What do you think that thrift shops (for example) would do if they > >> had a price guide? Jack their prices up to match most likely, on items that > >> they > > >Price guides don't buy or see things, people do. If the thift shop or anyone > >else for that matter marks something and nobody buys it, then the guide is > >wrong. > >The guide is just a guide, it's goal is to be accurate not allow you to buy > >things > >cheaply or have someone else sell too high. > > I've seen what price guides have done to other markets. They've establisheda > branch of dealers who are in it for the money. I don't like that. Is that because this is your hobby or are you adverse to markets all together? I wish my house didn't cost me as much as it did either. But on the same token when I go to sell, I'll be happy that an actual market exists all the same. And hopefully I'll be able to sell it for more than I paid for it. > > > >> might have sold for less if they didn't know better. I guess my point is > >> that having a price guide available online might lead to higher prices. I > > >Is that so bad? Don't you want your collection to go up in value? > > Why would I want that? It's a collection of old computers, not an investment. > Why can't it be both? And what makes you think that collecting INHERENTLY isn't an investment? I mean given the nature of collecting things and others having the same interest, whether you like it or not, it will BECOME a competitive market. > > >> was able to buy a valiant turtle robot for a fraction of what it was worth > >> because the seller had no idea of it's value. Every collector has similar > >> stories, and while those things would still happen from time to time, a > >> price guide would certainly reduce the chances -especially with software. > >> If > > >So you would rather keep people naive so you can get better deals? Any true > >market has a buy/sell spread. Why would you want to prevent classic computers > >from being a real market? > > Why would I want a market? My market is the fleamarket. Classic computers are > At one level its a flea market, but go out and try to buy an Apple I. You will see that it becomes a big-time auction or the like. > junk to most people, and since there is no real financial value in the market > even now, why would anyone desire to artifically induce higher prices? > I am not talking about artificial prices. That's bunk. I am speaking of real values. Check the value of the IMSAIs, Altairs and other systems of that era on eBay over the last year. Several complete, clean and otherwise nice systems have fetched several thousands of dollars. I'd hardly call that a flea market. Now a Commodore 64 is a flea market item, especially if you have to get a power supply from a separate deal. > > >> the price guide lists certain things as rare and more valueable, then the > >> seller will likely jack up his asking price. On the other hand, what if the > >> seller had no idea? The chances are better for collectors to get a "good" > >> deal. It's just something to consider. > > >One day your collectionwill be sold off, as you can't take it with you. Don't > >you want to get the most from your collection/investment? > > I'm not as greedy as some people. If I got my VAX cheaply, so should others. > I won't argue that one way or the other. I have seen Vaxes end up in the hands of scrap dealers too. Certainly you would hope that the value of a Vax is more than scrap if for no other reason for it NOT to end up recycled. I sure as heck would! The source from where you got your system appreciated old systems and wanted it to go to a good home. Most businesses/agencies/schools aren't so appreciative. > So I don't try to get as much as possible, only what's a nice price. That makes perfect sense. Heck, part of collecting is getting something at really good price just to see it go up in value, and the story in many ways is more interesting than the piece or system itself. When people become dealers of antiques and the like, they claim that they are able to part with items because the memories of ownership and the stories associated with buying and selling them. Most are NOT strictly in it for the money as the money is really not that good. > > Since there is a computer collecting community, what is there to worry about? Who is worried? > > If you've paid a nice price, there's no reason why you shouldn't get your > "investment" back when someone else on this list buys it off you, is there? > I never claimed otherwise. > Price guides and market thinking will just make people greedy, thinking that > they didn't get the best possible deal (is that so bloody important?) and > The true aim of a price guide is not to allow someone to dictate prices. A price guide should literally reflect actually paid prices for items based upon averages and some agree-upon conditional standard. Speaking of "condition'; based upon my experience with collecting coins, sports cards and dabbling with stamps and books, 'condition' cannot be overemphasized. > establish a market for dealers who will get to the surplus shops, fleamarkets, > giveaways and junkyards before us. > I have no financial stake in my collection, it's for fun, not investment. > Someone that inherits it one day will be very pleased that you kept it in nice condition. There is an old saying about collectibles, "you can't take it with you." > There are a lot of options in case you're looking for investments, and they > require neither floor space nor electricity. > But you act like you can stop it! The turnover rate of computer systems and the number of old ones lying around coupled with demand for them, will INHERENTLY create this market. What I am saying is, "ready or not here its is!' Don't shoot the messenger! As stated I am a collector of other things. I have a pretty nice baeball card and football (American) card and even basketball card collections. Been at it for years. I do a ltlle selling on the side to assist with bigger buys. I also have been collecting US and world coins for most of my adult life. I have attend shows and assisted on many a bourse floors over the past 18 years. What I am saying is that the conversation we are having (have a price guide not have a price guide), has been done may times before. When the Romans collected the Greeks' coins 2000 years ago, I am certain the thought of a price guide upset some and pleased others. Same with baseball cards in the 1970s. You could buy them in yard sales and flea markets then, but not anymnore. Was that good or bad? Really doesn't matter in that price guiides came out and there was nothing anyone could do about it. Stop collecting because of it? Maybe, I'm sure some actually did. You're better off trying to get Ebay and Yahoo to remove the 'vintage' tag on their computer hardware category as that has legitimized the market more than anything else at this point. But good luck succeeding with that! Eric > > -- > En ligne avec Thor 2.6a. > > SCSI is *NOT* magic. There are *fundamental technical > reasons* why it is necessary to sacrifice a young goat > to your SCSI chain now and then. -- John Woods From technos at nerdland.org Mon Oct 29 12:32:30 2001 From: technos at nerdland.org (Jim) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:09 2005 Subject: OT: Playstation 2 opinion? Message-ID: <01C1607E.28F49D30.technos@nerdland.org> I dunno. I'm doing just fine as far as games go on a K6-450 and VooDoo 2 SLI. Jim On Monday, October 29, 2001 12:49 PM, Zane H. Healy [SMTP:healyzh@aracnet.com] wrote: > >My recommendation is to forget the console, and put together a gaming PC. > >Better intelligence to the games, and immensely greater selection and > >usefullness. > > With the PS2 he'll be able to play new games for how many years without > upgrading the hardware? OTOH, how often do you need to upgrade a gaming PC > to play the latest stuff? I decided consoles were the way to go a few > years ago. > > Zane > -- > | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator | > | healyzh@aracnet.com (primary) | OpenVMS Enthusiast | > | | Classic Computer Collector | > +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ > | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | > | PDP-10 Emulation and Zane's Computer Museum. | > | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | From vze2wsvr at verizon.net Mon Oct 29 12:32:52 2001 From: vze2wsvr at verizon.net (Eric Chomko) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:09 2005 Subject: Dr. Tom Haddock's book ( was Re: Price guide for vintage computers) References: <200110291745.MAA21366@wordstock.com> Message-ID: <3BDDA0D3.36FA7599@verizon.net> I remember purchasing a book by Dr. Tom Haddock that was a price guide for Personal Computers. The book came out about 10 years ago. Has there been any discussion about this book on this list? Eric Bryan Pope wrote: > > > > Instead of a price guide, how bout a spotting/indentification guide with info > > on identifying computers and components and options without any pricing info? > > his is a already in the works by a list member, Michael Nadeau. How is the > book going, Mike? > > Cheers, > > Bryan Pope From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Mon Oct 29 08:46:14 2001 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (Ben Franchuk) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:09 2005 Subject: Almost on topic - Cassette I/O References: <01C16073.EDE1FA80@mse-d03> Message-ID: <3BDD6BB6.CEA4B594@jetnet.ab.ca> M H Stein wrote: > > Howdy to a fellow Canuck no doubt digging the long underwear out of the closet in preparation for winter... > > Might have something for ya; was just having one last look through some old Byte mags pulling out Cromemco ads before tossing 'em, and in July '76 there is a construction article for a fast cassette interface. Can scan it for ya if you're interested. Might also be able to find some others, was a popular project in those days. Can also ship you a Burroughs L series digital cassette drive (with some docs) if you're up to the challenge of interfacing it :) Also have tech info on some old computers (e.g. RS M100, AIM65) using cassette I/O. > > See on your web site you're also looking for PPT stuff; might even have something for ya in that department (Toronto area, though). > > While on the subject, anybody interested in an SwTPc AC-30 cassette interface? Just happen to have one; in fact, the reason I remembered that issue of Byte is 'cause the AC-30 is advertised on the inside front cover. > All look interesting providing shipping does not kill me as I live far from large urban centers. If nothing else I will take the bytes off you if you wish to part with them. If the digital cassette does not need a power supply I may be interested. Shipping may be best by greyhound. Right now I have the computer stuff on a breadboard. I would like to a get a PCB board made but I have not yet found a place to buy and program the prom I need. ( EDC1441 20pin PLCC from Altera ) Until I get the computer finished and stand alone I will use a old PC as smart terminal and not need real I/O until spring. By chance you would not have a terminal too? Ben. -- Standard Disclaimer : 97% speculation 2% bad grammar 1% facts. "Pre-historic Cpu's" http://www.jetnet.ab.ca/users/bfranchuk Now with schematics. From gunther at aurora.regenstrief.org Mon Oct 29 13:01:10 2001 From: gunther at aurora.regenstrief.org (Gunther Schadow) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:09 2005 Subject: How to disassemble an HSC90? References: <9011A52E011ED311B4280004AC1BA615014671CC@yalepress3.unipress.yale.edu> Message-ID: <3BDDA776.653D3085@aurora.regenstrief.org> David Woyciesjes wrote: > > Are the sdies getting stuck on wheel brackets that stick out too far? A DEC > rack I have for a tape drive had that problem. The brackets by the two back > wheels stick out about 1/8". Enough to stop the side panel from lifting > neatly up... Yup, that's how it works with the TU81. Those brackets can be easily removed by loosening up the screws and lifing the metal pieces up and away. Then the side walls can be yanked off by a good pull straight up. That's how it appears to be with the HSC initially: in fact, there are two similar metal pieces in the front that can be unfastened and pushed inward. Yet, after this is done the sidewalls don't move any easier. They are stuck as if glued or welded on! This is like a magic chinese woodbox. May be there is a magic thing you have to know so everything resolves in ease, but so far this transcendental knowledge has not been revealed to earthly beings by the gods who dwelleth on the Mt. Manynard or their prophets who service the fields. :-) regards -Gunther -- Gunther_Schadow-------------------------------http://aurora.rg.iupui.edu Regenstrief Institute for Health Care 1050 Wishard Blvd., Indianapolis IN 46202, Phone: (317) 630 7960 schadow@aurora.rg.iupui.edu------------------#include From r_beaudry at hotmail.com Mon Oct 29 13:05:35 2001 From: r_beaudry at hotmail.com (Rich Beaudry) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:09 2005 Subject: Apple II SCSI Card Questions Message-ID: Hello all, I just today received an Apple II SCSI card (NO docs), and I have some questions... First, a description of the card: Typical sized Apple II card, has a ribbon cable with one connector soldered to the card, and the other terminating in a female 25-pin "D" shape connector. There is a 40-pin chip labeled "NCR/5380" on one line, followed by "C476217", "6-1082073", and "8810S" on separate lines. There is also a 27128 EPROM, labeled "341-0437-A, (c) Apple '87". Aside from some glue logic, there are also two PALs, an 8-position jumper block, and a 6264 SRAM chip. The card is silk-screened "607-0291-B (c) 1986 Apple II SCSI Card", and carries the FCC ID "BC66DSA2B2087". Questions: 1) Is this the High-Speed SCSI card I hear about every so often? 2) Will this card work in a IIgs? 3) Are there any limitations to what SCSI devices I can attach? Ideally, I'd like to add an external hard drive and CD-ROM (Or maybe a Zip drive). Could I do this from this card? 4) Does anyone have docs they could copy and send to me? I'd gladly pay postage. 5) Are there updates to the EPROMs available somewhere? Not that I suspect problems, but if Apple released updates, I'd like to make sure I have the latest code... 6) Does anyone have drivers (if needed) that they could copy and send to me? Again, I'll pay postage. Thanks! Rich B. P.S. I get the digest, so if you could CC: me privately in your replies, I'd appreciate it. I'm a bit anxious to know what I've got here... "They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety." -- Ben Franklin From dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com Mon Oct 29 13:43:30 2001 From: dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com (Douglas Quebbeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:09 2005 Subject: [OT] New toy... Message-ID: <7A9BACCEF0171D4FB77019F5104CDD37225840@jeffserver.tegjeff.com> > > In no time somebody is bound to post the URL to some master list. > > INTSIBTPTUTSML SETMBRWHAA (someday, even the most banal remarks will have an abbreviation)! -dq From Antonio.Carlini at riverstonenet.com Mon Oct 29 13:58:32 2001 From: Antonio.Carlini at riverstonenet.com (Carlini, Antonio) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:09 2005 Subject: TU81+ spooks (was: Re: first step getting VAX 6000-400 booted ...) Message-ID: <3820E2042B6ED5118DC200D0B78EDC470661D2@exc-reo1> > Gunther Schadow wrote: >I did try MUB0 (because that's how VMS calls it for me), but >that doesn't work. I just like VMS calls my disk DUA0 but to >boot from it I have to call it just DU0. So MU0 it should be. >The CSA1 is weird, because it's really MUC6 for VMS, and it >should be another MU. The console's idea of a device name and VMS's idea of a device name will not always agree. For MSCP SDI disks (like your RA90) the device name will usually be DUAn:, where n: is the unit number you have given it. OpenVMS will sort out how to get from that unit number to a specific path to the device (possibly hanging off a CI rather than on your local machine!) The console usually does not bother with such shenanigans. It wants you to tell it how to find the device. For example, on a VAX 82x0/83x0 box you would boot as: B DUsn: where s is something like the VAXBI slot number in hex, and n is the unit number (also in hex IIRC). Of course if you put your KDB50 in slot ten then you can do: B DUAn: but that just hides the difference :-) Once VMS boots you can do: $ MC SYSGEN A A /L (that's AUTOCONFIGURE ALL /LOG) and it will go off and find most things. Then SHOW DEVICE D will list the disks (really any device that starts with D) and SHOW DEV M will show the Magtapes. The Console Storage device (CS) is generally not visible without being explicitly made so via SYSGEN, so it will generally not show up. >Yes, that would be the crucial question? Can you even boot from >TU81+. Given the rest of the orthogonal DEC design, I would be >highly surprized if one could not. Also, I'm pretty sure that >BSD used to be distributed on 9-track, bootable, presumably. But >I would appreciate a confirmation of this. If someone could test >copying a bootable TK to TU and then try TU booting? I don't know whether the VAX 6000 can cope with booting from TU81+, nor do I know what, if any, controller support it expects for a device to be bootable. (I don't know how much of a boot driver is implemented in the console and how much needs to be provided by the controller). If you do want to backup your system disk, the steps are as follows: 1. Install standalone backup on the system disk. $ @SYS$UPDATE:STABACKIT SYS$SYSDEVICE: This *should* (if I've remembered it correctly) create a standalone backup in root SYSE (i.e. $ DIR SYS$SYSDEVICE:[SYSE] should now have something in it ... don't mess or delete any of this though, most of it is effectively symlinks to stuff that matters!) 2. Boot as normal but with R5's top byte set to E, typically /R5:E0000000 should do this for you. 3. Standalone Backup should come up in a few minutes rather than a few hours! 4. $ BACKUP/IMAGE/VERIFY/IGNORE=LABEL SYS$SYSDEVICE: mua0:SYSTEM.BCK /SAVE mua0: is whatever the tape device wants to be called (MUB0:, MUB1: CSA1:, whatever). SYSTEM.BCK is just the saveset filename /IGNORE=LABEL means "I don't care how valuable that tape is, I know what I'm doing so wipe it!!" /VERIFY means it will take twice as long but there is a possibility that you may be able to restore the data one day :-) It's been a while, so this probably won't work first time. Antonio From mhstein at usa.net Mon Oct 29 12:43:38 2001 From: mhstein at usa.net (M H Stein) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:09 2005 Subject: unknown SRAM chips Message-ID: <01C1608C.22C1D1E0@mse-d03> This IS your lucky day! Since nobody at all replied to my post offering several boxes of data books, I tossed 'em all out; HOWEVER, it turns out that I'd overlooked one box under a chair and guess what, it contained a 1986 Toshiba MOS memory book. The TMM2068 is a TTL compatible 4x4 NMOS SRAM: 1-A7 20-Vcc 2-A6 19-A8 3-A5 18-A9 4-A4 17-A10 5-A3 16-A11 6-A2 15-I/O1 7-A1 14-I/O2 8-A0 13-I/O3 9-/CS 12-I/O4 10-GND 11-/WE I think someone else already gave you the info on the HM6147 -------------Original Message-------------- Date: Sun, 28 Oct 2001 13:32:54 -0500 From: Jim Donoghue Subject: unknown SRAM chips Anybody have pinouts for these ICs - I think they are some kind of SRAM. Thanks. TMM2068AP-45 HM6147HP-35 From mhstein at usa.net Mon Oct 29 13:15:54 2001 From: mhstein at usa.net (M H Stein) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:09 2005 Subject: Do we have a VAX organization? Message-ID: <01C1608C.2696F5C0@mse-d03> Maybe not just for VAXes? >From another perspective: A friend and I were both selling & supporting Cromemcos in the 80's and early 90's and, although neither of us is a "collector," as time went on and they became obsolete, we took them all back & hung on to them, first for parts and then because we didn't have the heart to throw them out. A few years ago we decided it was time to clear out the space and get rid of them, but could not find anyone seriously interested locally or on the 'Net at that time (mind you, being in Canada does make shipping a little expensive), so we hung on to them a little longer. Recently we both needed space again; he decided that it wasn't worth the time and trouble to find a good home for them and tossed most of his into the dumpster, while I thought that surely there'd be lots of people who'd give their eye teeth (and maybe even a couple of bucks) for this stuff. I did get a few inquiries for a card or two, and several people wished that I were in California or Minnesota (or that they were in Toronto, although, at least for the Californians, that's less attractive as winter approaches :). And yes, I was contacted by a couple of local collectors who will probably take a few of the systems. But on the whole, so far it has indeed not been worth the time and trouble, especially since (unlike HP & DEC) there's not much of a user community (knowledge base) out there and people prefer them to be assembled & working instead of a pile of chassis and boxes of manuals & untested cards. All this to say that it sure would have been nice if there'd been a central place with the organization & resources to arrange and/or pay for shipping the whole lot and a few bucks on top, and then dole them out to interested individuals. As it is, unless someone local actually wants it all, most of it will have to be scrapped. Thanks for the tip about the value of scrap, BTW; believe these boards & connectors were still goldplated... mike From mhstein at usa.net Mon Oct 29 14:12:24 2001 From: mhstein at usa.net (M H Stein) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:09 2005 Subject: A couple old books, 6502 and Mostek Message-ID: <01C1608C.2A490140@mse-d03> Gee, I've been doing this all wrong; I offered several boxes of data & related books for free, but had no replies at all - just found a box that I overlooked when I tossed 'em out, so let me try adding a handling charge & offer them for $4.95 ea. & shipping :) Zilog Microcomputer Components Data Book Feb 1980 Intel Microcomputer Systems Data Book 1976 (SBC's &c) Intel Component Data Catalog 1980 Intel 8048 Family Applications Handbook Jan 1980 (Apps & Assembler listings) Intel 8080 Microcomputer Systems User's Manual Sep 1975 (Apps & data sheets) Rockwell Electronics Devices data catalog 1981 (AIM65, RM65, System65, R68000, PPS-4/1, modems &c AIM65 4 Manual sets: User, Programming, Chipset & Monitor Listing The Elementary Apple 1983, Wm. B. Sanders (Datamost) (Beginners's User/Programming) And some Mostek & Synertek sheets as well; they were mostly into F8's and Z80's; you're probably thinking of MOS Technology for the 6502, and I just happen to have the MOS Microcomputers Programming Manual so after you get your $5.00, just send me 4.95 m -------------------Original Message------------------ Date: Sun, 28 Oct 2001 23:18:47 -0800 From: Mike Ford Subject: A couple old books, 6502 and Mostek I found a couple books while digging in boxes at TRW. Beyond Games: Systems Software for your 6502 Personal Computer. Ken Skier This is a very early book, copyright 1981, covering a series of articles from BYTE magazine. Lots of low level nuts and bolts software, a monitor, assembler, text, printing etc., but with a very basic approach, and over half the book are reference listings etc. Has a few specifics for each of Pet, Apple, Atari, and other 6502 computers. Mostek, MOS Integrated Circuit Guide. Magazine sized, 138 page, blue and silver book, copyright is 1975, but the only microprocess it mentions is the F8, and I was expecting 6502. Covers several early memory chips and some consumer calculator chips, very nice condition. I am thinking about $5 for either book, but best offer and postage gets it. From matt at knm.yi.org Thu Oct 25 13:45:53 2001 From: matt at knm.yi.org (Matt London) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:09 2005 Subject: SCSI Tape + MV3100 + VMS Message-ID: Hi guys, Dunno if anyone can help here, but I was recently given a Tandberg TDC 3325 and some tapes. The guy who gave this to me had it working in a PC with a SCSI controller running linux. I've not got any documentation for this drive at all, so I'd like to know what the SW1 dipswitch sets (I've worked out 1-3 are SCSI ID) Now I'd like to use this drive in my MV3100 to backup the VMS 5.4 install before I ditch it and start over with VMS 7.x. I put the drive in, and turned on the VAX - so far so good... >>> show dev VMS/VMB ULTRIX ADDR DEVTYP NUMBYTES RM/FX WP DEVNAM REV ------- ------ -------- ------ -------- ----- -- ------ --- ESA0 SE0 08-00-2B-23-3D-21 DKA300 RZ3 A/3/0/00 DISK 121 MB FX RZ23L 252B ...HostID.... A/6 INTR MKB400 TZ12 B/4/0/00 TAPE ........ RM ........... ...HostID.... B/6 INTR >>> It's picking up the drive then (I tried it as MKA400 too - same result) So I start VAX/VMS 5.4 abd login as SYSTEM... $ initialise mkb400: foo %INIT-F-DRVERR, fatal drive error $ It doesn't run the tape at all when I do this, only when you first put the tape in. The activity LED comes on when you put a tape in, and doesn't flicker. I'm at a loss - could it be it's not 512 byte blocks? If so, can anyone tell me how to change it. I tried it on both SCSI channels, so it shouldn't be a termination issue. Any ideas people? --Matt From Antonio.Carlini at riverstonenet.com Mon Oct 29 14:19:59 2001 From: Antonio.Carlini at riverstonenet.com (Carlini, Antonio) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:09 2005 Subject: How to disassemble an HSC90? Message-ID: <3820E2042B6ED5118DC200D0B78EDC470661D3@exc-reo1> > Gunther Schadow wrote: >Yup, that's how it works with the TU81. Those brackets can be easily >removed by loosening up the screws and lifing the metal pieces up and >away. Then the side walls can be yanked off by a good pull straight up. >That's how it appears to be with the HSC initially: in fact, there are >two similar metal pieces in the front that can be unfastened and pushed >inward. Yet, after this is done the sidewalls don't move any easier. >They are stuck as if glued or welded on! This is like a magic chinese >woodbox. May be there is a magic thing you have to know so everything >resolves in ease, but so far this transcendental knowledge has not >been revealed to earthly beings by the gods who dwelleth on the Mt. >Manynard or their prophets who service the fields. :-) I've not followed this from the start so I don't know how deep into the HSC90 you want to go, but the steps for upgrading an HSC90 to an HSC95 may help. 1. Power off. 2. Turn the nylon catches on the card cage cover 1/4 turn each and pull cover up and out. 3. Swap modules to taste. For removing the rear door: 1. Open door. 2. Release hinge pin by pulling down on release lever. 3. Slide door out and lift up: do not bend bottom pin. I've never (knowingly) seen an HSC6x or HSC9x so all I can say is that it sounds pretty easy so I assume you are doing something other than swapping modules? The IPB suggests that the side panels "hang" on the sides and, once the top is off, will slide upwards until they are clear of their "hooks". There may be some obvious screws involved too (it's not immediately clear whether this is a different cab variant/rev or not). Antonio From marino13 at btinternet.com Mon Oct 29 14:28:20 2001 From: marino13 at btinternet.com (Shaun Stephenson) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:09 2005 Subject: Stan Veit's History of the PC Books - Blow Out - $4 Shipped! References: Message-ID: <3BDDBBE4.6EBB0E8F@btinternet.com> What sort of machines does it cover, and how much for shipping to the UK? MTPro@aol.com wrote: > I have a number of brand new copies I'd like to move out. This is a super > deal just for classiccmp subscribers. Please e-mail me! > For more info on the book, see: > http://cgi.ebay.com/aw-cgi/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=1289515294 > Best, David > > David Greelish > Classic Computing > www.classiccomputing.com > "classiccomputing" on eBay -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20011029/f3871f4a/attachment.html From thompson at mail.athenet.net Mon Oct 29 14:36:20 2001 From: thompson at mail.athenet.net (Paul Thompson) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:09 2005 Subject: SCSI Tape + MV3100 + VMS In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Thu, 25 Oct 2001, Matt London wrote: > Hi guys, > Dunno if anyone can help here, but I was recently given a Tandberg TDC > 3325 and some tapes. The guy who gave this to me had it working in a PC > with a SCSI controller running linux. I've not got any documentation for > this drive at all, so I'd like to know what the SW1 dipswitch sets (I've > worked out 1-3 are SCSI ID) > Now I'd like to use this drive in my MV3100 to backup the VMS 5.4 > install before I ditch it and start over with VMS 7.x. > I put the drive in, and turned on the VAX - so far so good... If this is the 150MB tandberg found commonly on IBM equipment, it uses a buggy implementation of SCSI-1 and I doubt you will ever get it to work on your VAX. ( I was never able to on mine) If it is a tandberg 1.2GB or higher drive you probably would have better luck since these are newer drives and implement a more common SCSI command set. You might also try RZDISK if it is available for your version of VMS and see what it says since it will print all kinds of handy information about SCSI devices. -- From vcf at vintage.org Mon Oct 29 14:32:08 2001 From: vcf at vintage.org (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:09 2005 Subject: Epson QX-10 to good home Message-ID: Walter has an Epson QX-10 that he wants to find a good home for. Please contact him directly. Reply-to: ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Sun, 28 Oct 2001 20:51:19 -0500 From: Walter David Thompson Jr To: vcf@vintage.org Subject: Query Hi, I have an Epson QX-10 in excellent condition, including the 300 baud modem and the 8088 sisterboard upgrade, monitor, keyboard, software, technical manuals, etc., along with a second cpu box for parts. Any thoughts on the best way to find a collector who might be interested? Thanks for your help. Walter Who is Walter From Virginia, Anyway? http://www.greatestnetworker.com/comunity/myface.tcl?is=6121 --- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org From matt at knm.yi.org Thu Oct 25 15:10:21 2001 From: matt at knm.yi.org (Matt London) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:09 2005 Subject: SCSI Tape + MV3100 + VMS In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Hi, On Mon, 29 Oct 2001, Paul Thompson wrote: > On Thu, 25 Oct 2001, Matt London wrote: > > Dunno if anyone can help here, but I was recently given a Tandberg TDC > > 3325 and some tapes. The guy who gave this to me had it working in a PC > > with a SCSI controller running linux. I've not got any documentation for > > this drive at all, so I'd like to know what the SW1 dipswitch sets (I've > > worked out 1-3 are SCSI ID) > > Now I'd like to use this drive in my MV3100 to backup the VMS 5.4 > > install before I ditch it and start over with VMS 7.x. > > I put the drive in, and turned on the VAX - so far so good... > > If this is the 150MB tandberg found commonly on IBM equipment, it uses > a buggy implementation of SCSI-1 and I doubt you will ever get it to work > on your VAX. ( I was never able to on mine) It's the 150M :&( Oh well - looks like I'm gonna have to go hunting for another method of backing up the 3100 :&/ Ho hum. Maybe I'll go backup the MV3300 onto TK70 instead - it'll pass the time :&) --Matt From menadeau at mediaone.net Mon Oct 29 15:39:49 2001 From: menadeau at mediaone.net (Michael Nadeau) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:09 2005 Subject: Price guide for vintage computers (long) References: <3BDCA84F.7EED8C7C@jetnet.ab.ca> <00eb01c16041$cef9c260$3a92a8c0@MAGGIE> Message-ID: <110f01c160c2$406a1320$0b01a8c0@ValuedCustomer> Since the cat's out of the bag, I should respond to the comments about the vintage computer book I recently completed. First, it is not just a price guide. I call it a field guide that primarily helps you identify a computer and tells you what its key components and options were when new. It does give a value range. This was at the insistence of the publisher. My original proposal was for a 500-600-page vintage microcomputer encyclopedia, like the Catalog of American Cars (actually, I modeled the original proposal on The Complete Encyclopedia of Motorcars by G.N, Georgano and first published in 1968). The publisher thought that it would be a hard sell to the bookstores and distributors. The book would be too expensive for them to take a chance on what would be considered a new genre. For the record, I wrote this book out of an appreciation of computing history and because of the misinformation being distributed about old computers on eBay and elsewhere. I don't buy and sell vintage computers and have no intention of doing so for a living in the future. The book speaks to the enthusiast, not the dealer or speculator. Someone doubted whether a such guide could be successful. I don't expect to sell a lot of copies for now, but this is the type of project that could be sold for years with periodic updates. In the long run, the considerable amount of work that went into it will be rewarded. The book covers microcomputers and portable computers only. It's what I know best. It include more than 700 systems and 350 photos (numbers subject to change). The latest word from my publisher is that is will be available in June next year. I expected publication for late this year, but I was a bit late and their production is backed up. I haven't even had an initial reaction from the editor, so I'm uncomfortable saying any more about the book for now. However, I will reply to a few comments made on the value and wisdom of price guides. --eBay: Using eBay as a price guide works only for common items where you can look at selling prices for, say, 15 Osborne 1's in similar condition and figure an average. It is not good for rare systems where you can't factor out buyer over-exuberance, inaccurate descriptions, deceptive sellers, etc. In fact, there is no good pricing benchmark for most collectible computers where no public record of sales exists. This makes creating a price guide a dicey proposition, and I'm careful to spell out all the dangers of relying too heavily on any guide. And there is no copyright issue with using selling prices from eBay for a pricing guide (I didn't--just one of several data points I used) as long as you don't copy the format in which eBay presents them. The prices are facts, and you can't copyright a fact. --Price guides as evil: If people try to make a living from buying and selling old computers, or purchasing them as an investment, it won't be because of a price guide. From a dealer perspective, price guides work best for frequently bought-and-sold items. In this hobby, that means the C64s, Atari 800s, TRS-80 CoCos, etc.--the perennial low-buck items that dealers can't make any money on. As I said above, there is no data for what people are paying for most vintage computer models, and I expect this to stay the case for the foreseeable future. Dealers and speculators will have to rely on their own observations and gut feelings, as the successful ones tend to do. As for thrift shops, I expect that they will choose to remain ignorant about old computers and I don't see them spending money on price guides. --On dealers and speculators ruining the hobby: You could probably count using the fingers on one hand the number of dealers making a living buying and selling vintage computers exclusively. Old computers are high-overhead in terms of storage, testing, handling, and prepping for sale. It requires a great deal of knowledge and a network of buyers/collectors willing to spend high prices on rare systems. The hobby is too small for more than a few dealers to remain viable. I expect the hobby to grow slowly (price guide or no price guide) for similar reasons. Not everyone has the knowledge or storage capability to fully appreciate vintage computers. I could be wrong, but I don't see the old computer hobby turning into what the old car hobby is today. To me, it's more like the old radio hobby--large but still accessible to the person of average financial means. --On the true value of price guides: Someone mentioned that it was to the collector's advantage if the seller didn't know what a given system was worth. True, but how do you know what that computer is worth? If it's something you're familiar with, then you probably know its value as well as any price guide author, but what if you run across an unfamiliar but interesting system? How do you know then if you're the one taking advantage of someone's ignorance or vice-versa? The buyer is always the final arbiter of value, but a price guide can help keep you from getting burned or clue you in on a great deal. I'll keep everyone on this list posted on the book's progress. --Mike Michael Nadeau Editorial Services 603-893-2379 From geoffrob at stmarks.pp.catholic.edu.au Mon Oct 29 16:57:08 2001 From: geoffrob at stmarks.pp.catholic.edu.au (Geoff Roberts) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:10 2005 Subject: TU81+ spooks (was: Re: first step getting VAX 6000-400 booted ...) References: <3BD5B07D.5702C1BA@aurora.regenstrief.org> <3BDCF4A4.6070404@aurora.regenstrief.org> <02ca01c1604f$82f85440$de2c67cb@helpdesk> <3BDD9BB6.1040004@aurora.regenstrief.org> Message-ID: <001901c160cd$0994e680$de2c67cb@helpdesk> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Gunther Schadow" To: ; "Geoff Roberts" Sent: Tuesday, October 30, 2001 4:41 AM Subject: Re: TU81+ spooks (was: Re: first step getting VAX 6000-400 booted ...) > > The BOT, ONLINE and LOGIC ON leds are lit? > > yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, and yes :-) Ok. > I did try MUB0 (because that's how VMS calls it for me), but > that doesn't work. I just like VMS calls my disk DUA0 but to > boot from it I have to call it just DU0. So MU0 it should be. > The CSA1 is weird, because it's really MUC6 for VMS, and it > should be another MU. I think it's something that is defined specifically as part of the console. > [[[[BTW: In fact the CSA1 is more like a named boot specification > because yes. > >>> BOOT CSA1 > > works just fine, so does > > >>> BOOT /XMI:D /BI:6 CSA1 > > but when I do > > >>> SET BOOT TAPE /XMI:D /BI:6 CSA1 > >>> BOOT TAPE > > it barks to me with illegal boot specification after initializing. > But that's just an aside.]]]] Another Vaxism I guess. :^) > > It doesn't actually SAY you can boot from a TU81, but it doesn't say you > > can't either. > > Yes, that would be the crucial question? Can you even boot from > TU81+. Given the rest of the orthogonal DEC design, I would be > highly surprized if one could not. Ditto. > Also, I'm pretty sure that > BSD used to be distributed on 9-track, bootable, presumably. But > I would appreciate a confirmation of this. If someone could test > copying a bootable TK to TU and then try TU booting? > Meanwhile I have a lead on the E77 that I get when I want to > set the TU unit number. Exactly HOW are you trying to set the unit number? >So, this may be the cause of the > unresponsiveness at boot time. Hmm, possibly, I still suspect we are using the wrong device name to boot. Some possibilities (off the top of my head) MUA0 MUA1 MUB0 MUB1 MUC0 MUC1 Some of which you have already tried. I can't find anything else useful in the manual for the 6000 at the moment. Will look at some other sources. Any of our resident DECsperts care to confirm that a 6000 can be booted from TU81+/KLESI-B devices? Geoff Roberts Computer Systems Manager Saint Mark's College Port Pirie, South Australia geoffrob@stmarks.pp.catholic.edu.au ICQ 1970476 From pbboy at mindspring.com Mon Oct 29 17:53:27 2001 From: pbboy at mindspring.com (pbboy@mindspring.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:10 2005 Subject: email/browser for DOS or C64/128? Message-ID: <200110292355.SAA24836@tisch.mail.mindspring.net> Arachne DOS browser www.arachne.cz From vaxman at qwest.net Mon Oct 29 17:58:12 2001 From: vaxman at qwest.net (Clint Wolff (VAX collector)) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:10 2005 Subject: Abbr. (was Re: [OT] New toy...) In-Reply-To: <3BDCF8DB.9B3B993B@verizon.net> Message-ID: On Mon, 29 Oct 2001, Ian Koller wrote: > > speaking of ... > > > To those dismayed at the mangulations of language being > > used by some people in email these days, this just goes > > to show that there's nothing new under the sun. :-) > > can anyone fill in the blanks here ... > > IMHO - in my humble opinion > IMO - in my opinion > IIRC - if I recall correctly ? yes > OTOH - on the other hand > FYI - for your information > IOW - > FWIW - for what it's worth > AFAIK - as far as I know > WRT - with respect/regards to > ISTR - > TMK - to my knowledge > ISTR - > SAS - > FAE - > FA - > DIY - Do it yourself > YMMV - your mileage may vary > HMMV - > ECO - Engineering Change Order ? > AAMAF - > PITA - pain in the ass > IPA - > TIA - Thanks In Advance > NG - no good > NAOA - Not An Official Acronym > TTBOMK - to the best of my knowledge > > I hate to admit it, but I haven't figured some of these out. > And just maybe someone else hasn't either? but wouldn't want > to be associated with asking any stupid questions? > > Feel free to add any that you feel to be significant. > > > > > > Greg Ewing wrote: > > > > John Lawson: > > > > > FB OM YR SIGS 599 RPT 599 QSL VIA BURO TNX ES 73 DE KB6SCO > > > > pete@dunnington.u-net.com (Pete Turnbull): > > > > > It's (mostly standard) radio ham CW (continuous wave) abbreviations, used > > > to save keying too much morse. > > > > To those dismayed at the mangulations of language being > > used by some people in email these days, this just goes > > to show that there's nothing new under the sun. :-) > > > > Greg Ewing, Computer Science Dept, +--------------------------------------+ > > University of Canterbury, | A citizen of NewZealandCorp, a | > > Christchurch, New Zealand | wholly-owned subsidiary of USA Inc. | > > greg@cosc.canterbury.ac.nz +--------------------------------------+ > > From zaft at azstarnet.com Mon Oct 29 18:02:07 2001 From: zaft at azstarnet.com (Gordon Zaft) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:10 2005 Subject: TU81+ spooks (was: Re: first step getting VAX 6000-400 booted ...) In-Reply-To: <001901c160cd$0994e680$de2c67cb@helpdesk> References: <3BD5B07D.5702C1BA@aurora.regenstrief.org> <3BDCF4A4.6070404@aurora.regenstrief.org> <02ca01c1604f$82f85440$de2c67cb@helpdesk> <3BDD9BB6.1040004@aurora.regenstrief.org> Message-ID: <4.3.2.7.2.20011029170127.02153a28@mail.azstarnet.com> At 09:27 AM 10/30/2001 +1030, you wrote: >Hmm, possibly, I still suspect we are using the wrong device name to boot. > >Some possibilities (off the top of my head) >MUA0 MUA1 >MUB0 MUB1 >MUC0 MUC1 > >Some of which you have already tried. > >I can't find anything else useful in the manual for the 6000 at the moment. >Will look at some other sources. > >Any of our resident DECsperts care to confirm that a 6000 can be booted from >TU81+/KLESI-B devices? Is it possible it's getting identified as an MT device (i.e. MTA0:)? From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Oct 29 17:33:43 2001 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:10 2005 Subject: value of classic DEC machines? In-Reply-To: <3BDCE8B3.21D1768@bellsouth.net> from "Doug Carman" at Oct 29, 1 00:27:15 am Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 2974 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20011029/9fd48775/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Oct 29 17:25:32 2001 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:10 2005 Subject: Price guide for vintage computers In-Reply-To: <3BDCD01F.E6C35D70@mail.verizon.net> from "Eric Chomko" at Oct 28, 1 10:42:23 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 2377 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20011029/d9d812bc/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Oct 29 17:37:37 2001 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:10 2005 Subject: [OT] New toy... In-Reply-To: <3BDCF8DB.9B3B993B@verizon.net> from "Ian Koller" at Oct 29, 1 01:36:11 am Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1163 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20011029/3552bc74/attachment.ksh From UberTechnoid at home.com Mon Oct 29 17:26:51 2001 From: UberTechnoid at home.com (UberTechnoid@home.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:10 2005 Subject: TU81+ spooks (was: Re: first step getting VAX 6000-400 booted ...) In-Reply-To: <3BDCF4A4.6070404@aurora.regenstrief.org> Message-ID: <20011030001948.VUFP6181.femail35.sdc1.sfba.home.com@BENCHBOX> Have you tried : BOOT /XMI:D ?BI:2 /R5:1008 MUB0 ? Regards, Jeff In <3BDCF4A4.6070404@aurora.regenstrief.org>, on 10/29/01 at 01:18 AM, Gunther Schadow said: >O.K. it would have been too good to be true. I got quite far with my >Ultrix, but then I got stuck with being unable to boot from the TU81+ >drive. >My VMS 5.4 does detect the TU81 just fine, calls it MUB0 and allows me to >mount it and write files to it. I think I have >now a bootable 9-track reel with at least the first 10 >files of the Ultrix 4.1 bootable tape ready to go with all >blocksizes as required. It was fun writing! >But trying to boot this still brings up the old error: > >>> SHOW ALL >... > XBI D > 1+ DWMBA/B (2107) 000A > 2+ KLESI-B (0103) 0006 >... > >>> BOOT /XMI:D /BI:2 /R5:1008 MU0 >Initializing system. >... >Loading system software. >?06 Halt instruction executed in kernel mode. > PC = 200D7264 > SAVPSL = 041F0600 > ISP = 0003FBB8 >?3D Error initializing I/O device >Bootstrap failed due to previous error. > >>> >ans this goes all too fast certainly the tape never starts >moving before the error. >So I tried checking for the TU81's unit number (may be it's >MU1 or MU4 or MU213, who knows? First thing is when I power >up the TU81 it shows 000 on the front panel, but as soon >as it is initialized the display remains blank. So, perhaps >it has no unit number set at all? >The manual says in order to set the unit number you have to >go into TEST program 04. Which I did, TEST - STEP - STEP - >STEP - EXECUTE. But then it only says E77 and that's it. >This means, something is wrong, but what? The manual only >says to call DEC field service. I know the drive works >fine, the diagnostic test 01 has passed just fine and VMS >works happily with it. So, who knows about the TU81 and >how to set a unit number or make it bootable otherwise??? >(PS: yes, I had the drive loaded and online when I tried >booting, did that offline mistake once before, but not here.) >thanks again for your excellent advice, >-Gunther -- ----------------------------------------------------------- Jeffrey S. Worley Asheville, NC USA 828-6984887 UberTechnoid@Home.com ----------------------------------------------------------- From UberTechnoid at home.com Mon Oct 29 17:41:55 2001 From: UberTechnoid at home.com (UberTechnoid@home.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:10 2005 Subject: TU81+ spooks (was: Re: first step getting VAX 6000-400 booted ...) In-Reply-To: <20011030001948.VUFP6181.femail35.sdc1.sfba.home.com@BENCHBOX> Message-ID: <20011030003628.IHFP21044.femail29.sdc1.sfba.home.com@BENCHBOX> I may be just totally off here, but my Data General machine wants to boot from an octal device code. Maybe instead of an alphanum identifier there is a numerical device code you could use? For example, to boot my DG from it's 9track I would enter "B 62" from the CCLI or "62L" from the 16bit cli - 62 being the octal code I jumped the controller board to recognize. Regards, Jeff -- ----------------------------------------------------------- Jeffrey S. Worley Asheville, NC USA 828-6984887 UberTechnoid@Home.com ----------------------------------------------------------- From korpela at ssl.berkeley.edu Mon Oct 29 18:41:52 2001 From: korpela at ssl.berkeley.edu (Eric J. Korpela) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:10 2005 Subject: Price guide for vintage computers In-Reply-To: from Tony Duell at "Oct 29, 2001 11:25:32 pm" Message-ID: <200110300041.QAA23189@ellie.ssl.berkeley.edu> > Has anyone considered that creating a price guide might do more harm than > good. What do you think that thrift shops (for example) would do if they had > a price guide? Jack their prices up to match most likely My experience have been that thrift shop prices are typically too high by factors of 2 to 10 on common items and only marginally low on rarer items. It's as likely that thrift shop owners might decide to lower their prices on many items to match the guide. If thrift shops want to raise prices on underpriced items to match the market, that's fine by me. They are certainly entitled to receive what the item is worth. Eric From spectre at stockholm.ptloma.edu Mon Oct 29 18:55:23 2001 From: spectre at stockholm.ptloma.edu (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:10 2005 Subject: Price guide for vintage computers In-Reply-To: from Tony Duell at "Oct 29, 1 11:25:32 pm" Message-ID: <200110300055.RAA09796@stockholm.ptloma.edu> > In fact I'd be very happy if all classic computers had no financial value > at all. So would I, because it would be a lot cheaper :-) -- ----------------------------- personal page: http://www.armory.com/~spectre/ -- Cameron Kaiser, Point Loma Nazarene University * ckaiser@stockholm.ptloma.edu -- LDA #TXT:JMP $AB1E:TXT .asc "just another c64 hacker":.byt 0d00 - From pdp11 at bellsouth.net Mon Oct 29 19:02:22 2001 From: pdp11 at bellsouth.net (Doug Carman) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:10 2005 Subject: value of classic DEC machines? References: Message-ID: <3BDDFC1E.5A1EAA61@bellsouth.net> Tony Duell wrote: > > My guess is that if you take an 11/70 CPU, leave one 10.5" bay empty > above the CPU, then put 2 memory boxes in the top 2 rack bays, the > machine will be fine. If you are worried, rig up some air deflectors and > a fan in the bay immediately above the CPU box. > Actually, I found removing the 861C power controller from under the CPU, and getting rid of all the cables that were stuffed under it made the biggest difference for exhausting heat from the CPU itself. > > If you've got the space for 3 racks then, sure it's nice to have the > stuff spread out. But my experience is that empty rack bays attract > BA11-K expansion boxes, RK05/RL drives, and so on... You keep on finding > other things to add to the machine > Isn't that the point? Actually, my two RL02 drives are in the bottom of the two TU81 tape drive cabinets that sit on either side of the 11/70. That way I have more room to put future goodies in the H960 racks. :) > > Yes, some rules have to be followed. Don't put an RK05 or a BA11-K > immediately above an BA11-F (11/45 or 11/70 CPU). It will overheat. But > other rules cna most certainly be broken with no problems. > I can also say that some of this depends on where you are. Since I am in Florida, heat removal from any interior space can be a problem. Making it easier to get airflow through the PDP-11 cabinets makes it much easier to get heat out of the room. Even at that, A/C can find it hard to keep up in the warmer months. This time of year is when I can actually think of running the system for a period of time without it getting too hot, or costing a fortune to cool. It already costs a fortune just to run. --- Doug Carman pdp11@bellsouth.net From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Oct 29 19:30:30 2001 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:10 2005 Subject: value of classic DEC machines? In-Reply-To: <3BDDFC1E.5A1EAA61@bellsouth.net> from "Doug Carman" at Oct 29, 1 08:02:22 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 2442 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20011030/01e2f945/attachment.ksh From geoffrob at stmarks.pp.catholic.edu.au Mon Oct 29 19:43:59 2001 From: geoffrob at stmarks.pp.catholic.edu.au (Geoff Roberts) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:10 2005 Subject: TU81+ spooks (was: Re: first step getting VAX 6000-400 booted ...) References: <3BD5B07D.5702C1BA@aurora.regenstrief.org> <3BDCF4A4.6070404@aurora.regenstrief.org> <02ca01c1604f$82f85440$de2c67cb@helpdesk> <3BDD9BB6.1040004@aurora.regenstrief.org> <4.3.2.7.2.20011029170127.02153a28@mail.azstarnet.com> Message-ID: <010801c160e4$58b017f0$de2c67cb@helpdesk> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Gordon Zaft" To: Sent: Tuesday, October 30, 2001 10:32 AM Subject: Re: TU81+ spooks (was: Re: first step getting VAX 6000-400 booted ...) > At 09:27 AM 10/30/2001 +1030, you wrote: > > > Is it possible it's getting identified as an MT device (i.e. MTA0:)? Worth a go, rings a vague bell somewhere. If I get a chance I'll try a test boot on the one at work. Cheers Geoff Roberts Computer Systems Manager Saint Mark's College Port Pirie, South Australia geoffrob@stmarks.pp.catholic.edu.au ICQ 1970476 From vze2mnvr at verizon.net Mon Oct 29 19:46:01 2001 From: vze2mnvr at verizon.net (Ian Koller) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:10 2005 Subject: [OT] New toy... References: Message-ID: <3BDE0659.1623C605@verizon.net> Ahhh, it does seem that more than one of may have benefitted from this. David's provided URL ... http://www.acronymfinder.com/ And the compilation of all contributions ... Only two still missing AAMAF - ??????????????????????????? AFAIK - As Far As I Know DIY - Do It Yourself ECO - Engineering Change Order ETLA - Extended Three Letter Acronym FA - For Auction / F*ck All FAE - Field Applications Engineer FCO - Field Change Order FS - For Sale FWIW - For What It's Worth FYI - For Your Information HMMV - High Mobility Multipurpose Vehicle ( acronym for the Hummer ) His Milage May Vary HTH - Hope This/That Helps IANAL - I Am Not A Lawyer IIRC - If I Recall/Remember Correctly IMHO - In My Humble Opinion IMO - In My Opinion IOW - In Other Words IPA - Internet Protocol Address or Iso Propyl Alcohol ISTR - I Seem To Recall/Remember or It Stands To Reason NAOA - Not An Official Acronym NB - Nota Bene NBG - No Bloody Good NG - No Good / No Go / News Group OTOH - On The Other Hand PITA - Pain In The Ass/Arse ROFL - Rolling On Floor, Laughing ROFLMAO - Rolling On Floor, Laughing My Ass Off ROFLMAOWMCOMN - Rolling On the Floor Laughing My Ass Off With Milk Coming Out My Nose RTFM - Read The F*cking Manual SAS - ????????????????????????????????? TANSTAAFL - There Ain't No Such Thing As A Free Lunch TIA - Thanks In Advance TLA - Three Letter Acronym/Abbreviation TMK - To My Knowledge TTBOMK - To The Best Of My Knowledge WRT - With Respect/Regards To YMMV - Your Mileage May Vary Thanks To All From optimus at canit.se Mon Oct 29 19:42:19 2001 From: optimus at canit.se (Iggy Drougge) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:10 2005 Subject: Classic Gaming OT and OT / Re: OT: Playstation 2 opinion? In-Reply-To: <5.0.0.25.2.20011029083438.02a4b250@209.185.79.193> Message-ID: <2437.703T950T1624611optimus@canit.se> Chuck McManis skrev: >On Topic and Off Topic :-) >At 11:44 PM 10/28/01 -0800, it was written: >>PS2 is last year, by Xmas all his friends will be talking about Xbox and >>GameCube. We have N64, and I resisted forever getting one, and relented >>only as the price dropped to about $150 with a game (he just HAD to have >>Zelda). Keep in mind this is a razor blade industry, regardless of the high >>price of the console, the real money and costs will be in games etc. >Off topic part: >I was originally quite excited by the Xbox, I still think the _hardware_ is >cool, but the fact that Microsoft will be in charge of the software makes >me cringe. The first dedicated console that crashes not because of the >games :-( If I had to buy one this year I'd go with the PSTwo. Best of the >current lot, if I could get full docs and write my own software, I'd get >the Xbox. I think that getting your son a PC for gaming will get him involved with the "bad boys", the kind who like to slaughter each other across networks whoile shouting bad words at each other. Console games are nicer. >>My recommendation is to forget the console, and put together a gaming PC. >>Better intelligence to the games, and immensely greater selection and >>usefullness. >On topic part: >This will basically cost 10x as much in real terms and be harder to >maintain. Unless you use it only for games and even then games from >different years won't work on it. Getting a computer (particularly a PC, seeing how expensive they are, both to obtain and maintain) just for games is not a financially sound idea, I agree. >So how many people collect gaming environments? It seems that classic >computers go back to the early days of the C-64 vs Atari console wars. >Remember the advertisements where the young guy is sitting in a job >interview and the interviewer says, "So you can score 200,000 in space >donuts and get to the 15th level in maze wars, but what else can you do?" >and then they offer that if your kid said, "I can hack a C64" they would >hire him. (they don't really say that, they imply programming ability :-) I certainly get games and consoles whenever I can. My main interest in old computers revolves around games, sound and graphics. A computer with just an RS-232 connection to the outside world just isn't as interesting, IMO. -- En ligne avec Thor 2.6a. Amiga 4000/040 25MHz/64MB/20GB RetinaBLTZ3/VLab/FastlaneZ3/Ariadne/Toccata From vze2wsvr at verizon.net Mon Oct 29 19:49:29 2001 From: vze2wsvr at verizon.net (Eric Chomko) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:10 2005 Subject: Price guide for vintage computers References: Message-ID: <3BDE0729.45B05762@mail.verizon.net> Tony Duell wrote: > > > > > > > > Ernest wrote: > > > > > Has anyone considered that creating a price guide might do more harm than > > > good. What do you think that thrift shops (for example) would do if they had > > > a price guide? Jack their prices up to match most likely, on items that they > > > > Price guides don't buy or see things, people do. If the thift shop or anyone > > else for that matter marks something and nobody buys it, then the guide is > > wrong. > > Yes, but unless the price is _rediculous_ then somebody is likely to pay > it... > > I know a person who paid _thirty times_ what I paid for an indentical > machine (but mine was in somewhat better condition). And we bought the > machines within 2 months of each other. Now admittedly I think I got a > good deal, but equally, I think the other chap paid rather too much. > I often think about what my $1 expenses would look like to Bill Gates based upon our collective individual worths. 30 times? With the Gates analogy, YOU overpaid! > > If the prices are low, then everybody (however little spare money they > have) has a chance to get some interesting machine, if they happen to be > in the thrift store (or wherever) when it comes in. If the prices are > high, then it becomes a rich man's hobby only. I, for one, would not be > happy if that happened. > But its not a rich man's hobby as there is plenty to go around. In the context of Apple I computers it IS a rich man's (or woman's) hobby. > > > The guide is just a guide, it's goal is to be accurate not allow you to buy > > things > > cheaply or have someone else sell too high. > > > > > > > > might have sold for less if they didn't know better. I guess my point is > > > that having a price guide available online might lead to higher prices. I > > > > > > > Is that so bad? Don't you want your collection to go up in value? > > WHy would I? > Why would you want anything to go up in value? Answer me that and I'll answer your question. > > I've never sold a classic computer in my life, and don't intend to (OK, > there have been instances when somebody has sold 2 identical machines > together, and a fried and I bought the pair, one each. Of course we paid > half the cost each as well). I collect these machines because they're > interesting to repair, to program, to use, to interface, and so on. Not > because I intend to sell them in 10 years time and retire on the money. > I'd like to see the chap that retires on his classic computer collection. > > In fact I'd be very happy if all classic computers had no financial value > at all. I'd still collect them for the reasons given above. > I believe you. But it's an unrealistic belief. I want world peace and world without terrorists and death. "But if wishes were fishes, then we would all have some to fry." Reality states that when one thing is in demand, then an orderly market is the best solution. And that is a good thing! > > > One day your collectionwill be sold off, as you can't take it with you. Don't > > you want to get the most from your collection/investment? > > Mine won't be. Another collector in the UK gets the lot if I die. And he > also wants the machines for their computing interest, not to make money from. > Well good for you. Make sure you get that in writing and make sure it sticks. Notarized and the like. Maybe donation to a museum so all can enjoy is really the best approach? Eric > > -tony From vze2wsvr at verizon.net Mon Oct 29 19:59:47 2001 From: vze2wsvr at verizon.net (Eric Chomko) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:10 2005 Subject: Price guide for vintage computers References: <200110300041.QAA23189@ellie.ssl.berkeley.edu> Message-ID: <3BDE0993.C3FC0569@mail.verizon.net> "Eric J. Korpela" wrote: > > Has anyone considered that creating a price guide might do more harm than > > good. What do you think that thrift shops (for example) would do if they had > > a price guide? Jack their prices up to match most likely > > My experience have been that thrift shop prices are typically too high > by factors of 2 to 10 on common items and only marginally low on rarer > items. It's as likely that thrift shop owners might decide to lower > their prices on many items to match the guide. Here in DC it's like that too; thrift stores overcharging for computer items. Lately, I have been leaving them on the shelves. A big reason is that I'm much more picky due to space restriction reasons, but some items are priced ridiculously high. > > > If thrift shops want to raise prices on underpriced items to match the > market, that's fine by me. They are certainly entitled to receive what > the item is worth. > Any new price guide isn't going to radically change anything right away. The value of the price guide is the manner in which it will change with the change in the market. In the coin business, the Grey Sheet (TM) is the BiBle. The thing is the gospel truth of the US coin business. The reason that that is true is that the Greysheet values change with the market. It's goal is to accurately price coins. Nothing more. IMO, its the best price guide of any kind in any collectible area of its kind. Eric C. > > Eric From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Oct 29 20:18:15 2001 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:10 2005 Subject: Price guide for vintage computers In-Reply-To: <3BDE0729.45B05762@mail.verizon.net> from "Eric Chomko" at Oct 29, 1 08:49:29 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 2443 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20011030/57a87060/attachment.ksh From greg at cosc.canterbury.ac.nz Mon Oct 29 20:29:53 2001 From: greg at cosc.canterbury.ac.nz (Greg Ewing) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:10 2005 Subject: [OT] New toy... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <200110300229.PAA09278@s454.cosc.canterbury.ac.nz> One Without Reason : > There's always ROFLMAOWMCOMN. Rolling On the Floor Laughing My Ass Off > With Milk Coming Out My Nose. That'll teach you to snort dairy products. Greg Ewing, Computer Science Dept, +--------------------------------------+ University of Canterbury, | A citizen of NewZealandCorp, a | Christchurch, New Zealand | wholly-owned subsidiary of USA Inc. | greg@cosc.canterbury.ac.nz +--------------------------------------+ From vze2mnvr at verizon.net Mon Oct 29 20:33:30 2001 From: vze2mnvr at verizon.net (Ian Koller) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:10 2005 Subject: Classic Gaming OT and OT / Re: OT: Playstation 2 opinion? References: <2437.703T950T1624611optimus@canit.se> Message-ID: <3BDE117A.F0B68BA7@verizon.net> Iggy Drougge wrote: > A computer with just an RS-232 connection to the outside world > just isn't as interesting, IMO. Ahh, but put a fast modem on that RS232, and with the internet, it's a whole ( brave ) new world. From jdonogh1 at prodigy.net Mon Oct 29 20:41:54 2001 From: jdonogh1 at prodigy.net (Jim Donoghue) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:10 2005 Subject: hard-sector 5 1/4 disk Message-ID: <01102921415400.02413@ws1> Anybody ever see anything that uses hard sector 5 1/4 disks? I've only ever seen one in my lifetime - just curious if they were ever used anywhere else (the one I saw was used to load microcode into a mainframe CPU) From healyzh at aracnet.com Mon Oct 29 20:42:41 2001 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:10 2005 Subject: Classic Gaming OT and OT / Re: OT: Playstation 2 opinion? In-Reply-To: <2437.703T950T1624611optimus@canit.se> from "Iggy Drougge" at Oct 30, 2001 02:42:19 AM Message-ID: <200110300242.f9U2gfV01364@shell1.aracnet.com> > I think that getting your son a PC for gaming will get him involved with the > "bad boys", the kind who like to slaughter each other across networks whoile > shouting bad words at each other. Console games are nicer. Console games are starting to go online as well though. The Dreamcaste started it, the PS2 will soon have a adapter, and I think the Xbox might come with it (or at least you'll be able to add it). I'm not sure about the Game Cube. Zane From pdp11 at bellsouth.net Mon Oct 29 21:26:20 2001 From: pdp11 at bellsouth.net (Doug Carman) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:10 2005 Subject: value of classic DEC machines? References: Message-ID: <3BDE1DDC.67E56C37@bellsouth.net> Tony Duell wrote: > > > Making it easier to get airflow through the PDP-11 cabinets makes it > > much easier to get heat out of the room. Even at that, A/C can find it > > Air Conditioners are not common in private houses in the UK. They do > exist, but I only know one person to have one. > As I know all too well from my trip to Hampshire last July. Your summer is nothing like our weather in July. Everyone in the UK could use a nice old warm computer to take the chill off. :) > > hard to keep up in the warmer months. This time of year is when I can > > actually think of running the system for a period of time without it > > getting too hot, or costing a fortune to cool. It already costs a > > fortune just to run. > > If you have electric heating anyway, then it shouldn't make much > difference to the overall electricity bill, surely... > Well, a heat pump (an air conditioner that runs in reverse) does work a little more efficiently than TTL logic for heating the house. My biggest problem is coming up with a way to duct the heat from the 11/70 to the rest of the house. It still seems that I end up with the heat on in the house, and the windows open in the room with the 11/70. --- Doug Carman pdp11@bellsouth.net From cbajpai at mediaone.net Mon Oct 29 21:27:59 2001 From: cbajpai at mediaone.net (Chandra Bajpai) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:10 2005 Subject: hard-sector 5 1/4 disk In-Reply-To: <01102921415400.02413@ws1> Message-ID: <002601c160f2$e0473640$b97ba8c0@ne.mediaone.net> I've got a Northstar Advantage that uses them...anyone know where to get hard sector disks these days? -Chandra -----Original Message----- From: owner-classiccmp@classiccmp.org [mailto:owner-classiccmp@classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Jim Donoghue Sent: Monday, October 29, 2001 9:42 PM To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org Subject: hard-sector 5 1/4 disk Anybody ever see anything that uses hard sector 5 1/4 disks? I've only ever seen one in my lifetime - just curious if they were ever used anywhere else (the one I saw was used to load microcode into a mainframe CPU) From UberTechnoid at home.com Mon Oct 29 21:20:56 2001 From: UberTechnoid at home.com (UberTechnoid@home.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:10 2005 Subject: hard-sector 5 1/4 disk In-Reply-To: <01102921415400.02413@ws1> Message-ID: <20011030033021.OFJP21044.femail29.sdc1.sfba.home.com@BENCHBOX> I can't name a machine that did, but I know some CP/M boxes used them. So that excludes Kaypro, ATR8000, ATR8500, SuperBrain, Morrow MDx, Osborne, Xerox 820-II, Commodore 128, and IBM PC. All run CP/M and none use hard sectored disks. I do know that lots of drive controllers use the index hole of soft-sectored disks to time the disk's rotation in order to determine which type drive is running on it. 92/180/320/720k disks rotate at 300rpm and 'high-density' drives like 77track 8' hd and your standard 1.44mb floppy drives rotate at 360rpm. Some drives by other makers run at odd speeds. Atari 8-bit drives generally run at 288rpm and this makes a difference esp when reading copy-protected disks. Regards, Jeff In <01102921415400.02413@ws1>, on 10/29/01 at 09:41 PM, Jim Donoghue said: >Anybody ever see anything that uses hard sector 5 1/4 disks? I've only >ever seen one in my lifetime - just curious if they were ever used >anywhere else (the one I saw was used to load microcode into a mainframe >CPU) -- ----------------------------------------------------------- Jeffrey S. Worley Asheville, NC USA 828-6984887 UberTechnoid@Home.com ----------------------------------------------------------- From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Mon Oct 29 21:29:43 2001 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (ajp166) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:10 2005 Subject: hard-sector 5 1/4 disk Message-ID: <013401c160f4$20ec5350$1eed9a8d@ajp166> The shot list is... Northstar Horizon Heath H89 Northstart Advantage Likely a dozen others as awell. Allison -----Original Message----- From: Jim Donoghue To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org Date: Monday, October 29, 2001 10:17 PM Subject: hard-sector 5 1/4 disk >Anybody ever see anything that uses hard sector 5 1/4 disks? I've only ever >seen one in my lifetime - just curious if they were ever used anywhere else >(the one I saw was used to load microcode into a mainframe CPU) > From optimus at canit.se Mon Oct 29 21:32:14 2001 From: optimus at canit.se (Iggy Drougge) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:10 2005 Subject: Price guide for vintage computers In-Reply-To: <3BDD9D74.BED611D0@verizon.net> Message-ID: <10109.703T700T2724329optimus@canit.se> Eric Chomko skrev: >Iggy Drougge wrote: >> Eric Chomko skrev: >> >> >Price guides don't buy or see things, people do. If the thift shop or >> >anyone else for that matter marks something and nobody buys it, then the >> >guide is wrong. The guide is just a guide, it's goal is to be accurate not >> >allow you to buy things cheaply or have someone else sell too high. >> >> I've seen what price guides have done to other markets. They've >> establisheda branch of dealers who are in it for the money. I don't like >> that. >Is that because this is your hobby or are you adverse to markets all >together? I wish my house didn't cost me as much as it did either. But on the >same token when I go to sell, I'll be happy that an actual market exists all >the same. And hopefully I'll be able to sell it for more than I paid for it. Markets? No, I'm probably not fond of them, is there any reason to like them? They're ultimately driven by egoism. And I particularly don't wish my hobby to become market-oriented. I've done fine without any classic computer market so far. I don't really see why you should get more for your house than you paid for it when you bought it. Besides, I hope you don't collect houses for a hobby. >> >Is that so bad? Don't you want your collection to go up in value? >> >> Why would I want that? It's a collection of old computers, not an >> investment. >Why can't it be both? And what makes you think that collecting INHERENTLY >isn't an investment? I mean given the nature of collecting things and others >having the same interest, whether you like it or not, it will BECOME a >competitive market. Some of us would like our hobbies not to be driven by greed. I want to be able to play with my old Sinclair without ever thinking of how much food, rent or current computer equipment I might get if I sold it. I'd prefer if it remained neutral in its value, or valued only be me and my fellow collector. Besides, I don't like collectors or collecting markets. I think filatelists, toy collectors, comic book nerds, guitar collectors and the rest are rather sad. They collect for the sake of collecting, and there are mags and price guides and newsgroups, all relating to what is essentially old junk collected by a small community of nerds, some of which happen to have deeper pockets than others and little appreciation of the actual value of the pieces of paper or dolls which they're collecting. It's a superficial form of collecting which thankfully doesn't seem to have penetrated the classiccmp community yet. >> >So you would rather keep people naive so you can get better deals? Any >> >true market has a buy/sell spread. Why would you want to prevent classic >> >computers from being a real market? >> >> Why would I want a market? My market is the fleamarket. Classic computers >> are >At one level its a flea market, but go out and try to buy an Apple I. You >will see that it becomes a big-time auction or the like. Well, that's sad. And I feel sorry for people who are so interested in the exclusivity of getting an Apple I and won't settle for a replica. But all right, how many Apple ones are there? Two? Three? Zero? They're of no consequence whatsoever to the absolute majority of collectors. Would the price guide just contain Apple Is, PDP-1s and ENIACs? In that case, let Paul Allen and Steve Jobs have it. And send some to the scrappers, too. But if it's going to be of real-world use, it will contain lists of the computers which some of us who are lucky enough get cheaply. And if they contain those prices, what use will the price guide be? To tell people that old computers are worth little money? >> junk to most people, and since there is no real financial value in the >> market even now, why would anyone desire to artifically induce higher >> prices? >I am not talking about artificial prices. That's bunk. I am speaking of real >values. Check the value of the IMSAIs, Altairs and other systems of that >era on eBay over the last year. Several complete, clean and otherwise nice >systems have fetched several thousands of dollars. I'd hardly call that a >flea market. And what purpose would a price guide serve in this case? >Now a Commodore 64 is a flea market item, especially if you have to get >a power supply from a separate deal. Been there, done that. =) >> >> the price guide lists certain things as rare and more valueable, then >> >> the seller will likely jack up his asking price. On the other hand, what >> >> if the seller had no idea? The chances are better for collectors to get >> >> a "good" deal. It's just something to consider. >> >> >One day your collectionwill be sold off, as you can't take it with you. >> >Don't you want to get the most from your collection/investment? >> >> I'm not as greedy as some people. If I got my VAX cheaply, so should >> others. >I won't argue that one way or the other. I have seen Vaxes end up in the >hands of scrap dealers too. Certainly you would hope that the value of a Vax >is more than scrap if for no other reason for it NOT to end up recycled. I >sure as heck would! Guess where I got mine - the scrap yard. =) >The source from where you got your system appreciated old systems and wanted >it to go to a good home. Most businesses/agencies/schools aren't so >appreciative. Nor will they be when they learn that people won't pay more than scrap value. We should concentrate on getting people to understand that there may be better homes for their old computers than the scrap yards instead of telling epople how much to ask for things they no longer want. >> Since there is a computer collecting community, what is there to worry >> about? >Who is worried? You're worried about the lack of a market, I'm worried about you. >> If you've paid a nice price, there's no reason why you shouldn't get your >> "investment" back when someone else on this list buys it off you, is there? >I never claimed otherwise. But I say any profit is superfluous. >> Price guides and market thinking will just make people greedy, thinking >> that they didn't get the best possible deal (is that so bloody important?) >> and >The true aim of a price guide is not to allow someone to dictate prices. A >price guide should literally reflect actually paid prices for items based >upon averages and some agree-upon conditional standard. Speaking of >"condition'; based upon my experience with collecting coins, sports cards and >dabbling with stamps and books, >'condition' >cannot be overemphasized. But price guides have to be updated, and then they will reflect higher prices, giving people yet higher expectations. Price guides are a driving force in a collecting business. With price guides come dealers who will ask what's in the price guide, or more, and they will get to the nice things before we do, and we'll be at their mercy. >> establish a market for dealers who will get to the surplus shops, >> fleamarkets, giveaways and junkyards before us. I have no financial stake >> in my collection, it's for fun, not investment. >Someone that inherits it one day will be very pleased that you kept it in >nice condition. There is an old saying about collectibles, "you can't take it >with you." Since I have no financial stake in my collection, I'd rather it be inherited by someone of the same spirit. They'll certainly appreciate the condition, but not because of its financial value. >> There are a lot of options in case you're looking for investments, and they >> require neither floor space nor electricity. >But you act like you can stop it! The turnover rate of computer systems and >the number of old ones lying around coupled with demand for them, will >INHERENTLY create this market. What I am saying is, "ready or not here its >is!' Don't shoot the messenger! You're not the messenger, you're the agitator. >As stated I am a collector of other things. I have a pretty nice baeball card >and football >(American) card and even basketball card collections. Been at it for years. I >do a ltlle selling on the side to assist with bigger buys. I also have been >collecting US and world coins for most of my adult life. I have attend shows >and assisted on many a bourse floors over the past 18 years. And I've been collecting toys in a previous life, and have a big collection of comics. I witnessed the commercialisation of the toy business, and I've seen comic book "collectors", the kind who keep their books in anti-acid plastic bags. Sad gits are what they are, they should read them, not lock them up in plastic. It's a philosophical difference between us. I don't like the collecting business, since it gets in the way of the hobby itself. It's a bit like the collectable card games. Suddenly, the rich kid is always the winner. Not because of craftiness at putting together a deck, but because he can go to a card shop and buy individual cards with the right characteristics. >What I am saying is that the conversation we are having (have a price guide >not have a price guide), has been done may times before. When the Romans >collected the Greeks' coins 2000 years ago, I am certain the thought of a >price guide upset some and pleased others. Same with baseball cards in the >1970s. You could buy them in yard sales and flea markets then, but not >anymnore. Was that good or bad? Really doesn't matter in that price guiides >came out and there was nothing anyone could do about it. Stop collecting >because of it? Maybe, I'm sure some actually did. I bailed out of the toys... >You're better off trying to get Ebay and Yahoo to remove the 'vintage' tag on >their computer hardware category as that has legitimized the market more than >anything else at this point. But good luck succeeding with that! At least that is a really "free" market. Price guides will just cement whatever is deemed as appropriate by the author. -- En ligne avec Thor 2.6a. Georgie beundrade stor?gt sin pappa som med v?ldsamma slag gick l?s p? det stora tr?det. Han badade i svett, och den muskul?sa kroppen bl?nkte i solskenet. Hon ?lskade honom. Lady Georgie, TMS 1983 From acme_ent at bellsouth.net Mon Oct 29 22:01:40 2001 From: acme_ent at bellsouth.net (Glen Goodwin) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:10 2005 Subject: OT: Playstation 2 opinion? Message-ID: <20011030040330.HUAM19849.imf14bis.bellsouth.net@thegoodw> > From: Mike Ford > PS2 is last year, by Xmas all his friends will be talking about Xbox and > GameCube. We have N64, and I resisted forever getting one, and relented > only as the price dropped to about $150 with a game (he just HAD to have > Zelda). Keep in mind this is a razor blade industry, regardless of the high > price of the console, the real money and costs will be in games etc. > > My recommendation is to forget the console, and put together a gaming PC. > Better intelligence to the games, and immensely greater selection and > usefullness. Are you talking about a MS Windows box here??? As a PC builder I must say that if I were into serious gaming I would absolutely buy a game console. Say you buy 3 pricey, high-quality games for your PC. Chances are one of them won't like your video card. Or the version of DirectX you're running. Or the gamepad you're using. Or the motherboard's chipset. Or it'll step on another game by replacing DLLs. Or it'll change the sound settings so the other games have problems. Not my idea of *fun*. On the other hand I suppose you could consider the "real" game to be getting more than 3 high-quality games to run on the same Wintel box ;>) Glen 0/0 From dittman at dittman.net Mon Oct 29 22:04:43 2001 From: dittman at dittman.net (Eric Dittman) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:10 2005 Subject: value of classic DEC machines? In-Reply-To: <3BDE1DDC.67E56C37@bellsouth.net> from "Doug Carman" at Oct 29, 2001 10:26:20 PM Message-ID: <200110300404.f9U44h321803@narnia.int.dittman.net> > Well, a heat pump (an air conditioner that runs in reverse) does work a > little more efficiently than TTL logic for heating the house. My > biggest problem is coming up with a way to duct the heat from the 11/70 > to the rest of the house. It still seems that I end up with the heat on > in the house, and the windows open in the room with the 11/70. I installed a window AC unit in my computer room. My wife was against it, but after I installed it she said she wished she'd let me get it sooner. No more turning the AC down to 66 degrees F in the summer and turning the heat down in the winter. -- Eric Dittman dittman@dittman.net Check out the DEC Enthusiasts Club at http://www.dittman.net/ From dlw at trailingedge.com Mon Oct 29 22:14:39 2001 From: dlw at trailingedge.com (David Williams) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:10 2005 Subject: Dec & Sun stuff available in Houston TX Message-ID: <3BDDD4CF.29765.17ECE04@localhost> I have just spent the last few weeks living a computer collector's nightmare.... moving. The entire collection had to be packed up, loaded, moved and unloaded. The good part is I now have a larger place and I'm taking the time to organize and get a better, newer inventory. During which I've decided to pass along some things I have extras of or will never get around to working with. There is more to come but I'll start off with some of the larger items. Item 1 - DEC PDP-8 stuff. Two card cages with various boards (not sure what all is in there at the moment), power distribution strip, and two RK05 drives. I think I have a PDP-8A front panel that went with all of it here too. All is in unknown condition. I thought I'd have time to try and do something with all this once but I know now I won't. Item 2 - Sun 3/50. System plus two 19" monitors, 2 keyboards and a mouse. Unknown condition. Item 3 - Box of various Sun OS tapes. If you have something you'd like to trade me I'll be happy to consider it but otherwise they're free for pick up in Houston TX. I often drive up to Austin (doing so this weekend in fact) and might be convinced to tote them along but can't promise. If nobody wants them then it's off to the local scrapper I guess. Other stuff available soon as I sort through all these systems and boxes. ----- "What is, is what?" "When the mind is free of any thought or judgement, then and only then can we know things as they are." David Williams - Computer Packrat dlw@trailingedge.com http://www.trailingedge.com From mythtech at Mac.com Mon Oct 29 22:33:18 2001 From: mythtech at Mac.com (Chris) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:10 2005 Subject: hard-sector 5 1/4 disk Message-ID: <200110300435.WAA06422@opal.tseinc.com> >>Anybody ever see anything that uses hard sector 5 1/4 disks? I've only >>ever >>seen one in my lifetime - just curious if they were ever used anywhere >>else >>(the one I saw was used to load microcode into a mainframe CPU) >I've got a Northstar Advantage that uses them...anyone know where to get >hard sector disks these days? I was just about to say, I seem to recall that my old Northstar used them (although I can't remember if it was an Advantage or a Horizon, it was a black boxie CPM machine with screen, keyboard and floppy drive all in one unit). I also think the Apple II had a hard sector option (had to load a special disk to activate it... or was that 13 sector... or are they the same thing?) -chris From gunther at aurora.regenstrief.org Mon Oct 29 22:47:55 2001 From: gunther at aurora.regenstrief.org (Gunther Schadow) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:10 2005 Subject: Dec & Sun stuff available in Houston TX References: <3BDDD4CF.29765.17ECE04@localhost> Message-ID: <3BDE30FB.3040309@aurora.regenstrief.org> David, top, here is someone who wants the PDP-8 stuff and RK05 (all DEC) and I can organize pick-up through a friend in Houston. thanks, -Gunther David Williams wrote: > I have just spent the last few weeks living a computer collector's > nightmare.... moving. The entire collection had to be packed up, > loaded, moved and unloaded. The good part is I now have a larger > place and I'm taking the time to organize and get a better, newer > inventory. During which I've decided to pass along some things I > have extras of or will never get around to working with. There is > more to come but I'll start off with some of the larger items. > > Item 1 - DEC PDP-8 stuff. Two card cages with various boards (not > sure what all is in there at the moment), power distribution strip, > and two RK05 drives. I think I have a PDP-8A front panel that went > with all of it here too. All is in unknown condition. I thought I'd > have time to try and do something with all this once but I know now > I won't. > > Item 2 - Sun 3/50. System plus two 19" monitors, 2 keyboards > and a mouse. Unknown condition. > > Item 3 - Box of various Sun OS tapes. > > If you have something you'd like to trade me I'll be happy to > consider it but otherwise they're free for pick up in Houston TX. I > often drive up to Austin (doing so this weekend in fact) and might > be convinced to tote them along but can't promise. If nobody > wants them then it's off to the local scrapper I guess. > > Other stuff available soon as I sort through all these systems and > boxes. > > ----- > "What is, is what?" > > "When the mind is free of any thought or judgement, > then and only then can we know things as they are." > > David Williams - Computer Packrat > dlw@trailingedge.com > http://www.trailingedge.com > -- Gunther Schadow, M.D., Ph.D. gschadow@regenstrief.org Medical Information Scientist Regenstrief Institute for Health Care Adjunct Assistant Professor Indiana University School of Medicine tel:1(317)630-7960 http://aurora.regenstrief.org From donm at cts.com Mon Oct 29 22:52:51 2001 From: donm at cts.com (Don Maslin) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:10 2005 Subject: hard-sector 5 1/4 disk In-Reply-To: <013401c160f4$20ec5350$1eed9a8d@ajp166> Message-ID: On Mon, 29 Oct 2001, ajp166 wrote: > The shot list is... > > Northstar Horizon > Heath H89 > Northstart Advantage > > Likely a dozen others as awell. > > Allison Don't overlook Vector Graphics. - don > -----Original Message----- > From: Jim Donoghue > To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org > Date: Monday, October 29, 2001 10:17 PM > Subject: hard-sector 5 1/4 disk > > > >Anybody ever see anything that uses hard sector 5 1/4 disks? I've only > ever > >seen one in my lifetime - just curious if they were ever used anywhere > else > >(the one I saw was used to load microcode into a mainframe CPU) > > > > From vance at ikickass.org Mon Oct 29 23:09:19 2001 From: vance at ikickass.org (One Without Reason) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:10 2005 Subject: Dec & Sun stuff available in Houston TX In-Reply-To: <3BDE30FB.3040309@aurora.regenstrief.org> Message-ID: Awww. I wanted it. Peace... Sridhar On Mon, 29 Oct 2001, Gunther Schadow wrote: > David, top, here is someone who wants the PDP-8 stuff and > RK05 (all DEC) and I can organize pick-up through a friend > in Houston. > > thanks, > -Gunther > > David Williams wrote: > > > I have just spent the last few weeks living a computer collector's > > nightmare.... moving. The entire collection had to be packed up, > > loaded, moved and unloaded. The good part is I now have a larger > > place and I'm taking the time to organize and get a better, newer > > inventory. During which I've decided to pass along some things I > > have extras of or will never get around to working with. There is > > more to come but I'll start off with some of the larger items. > > > > Item 1 - DEC PDP-8 stuff. Two card cages with various boards (not > > sure what all is in there at the moment), power distribution strip, > > and two RK05 drives. I think I have a PDP-8A front panel that went > > with all of it here too. All is in unknown condition. I thought I'd > > have time to try and do something with all this once but I know now > > I won't. > > > > Item 2 - Sun 3/50. System plus two 19" monitors, 2 keyboards > > and a mouse. Unknown condition. > > > > Item 3 - Box of various Sun OS tapes. > > > > If you have something you'd like to trade me I'll be happy to > > consider it but otherwise they're free for pick up in Houston TX. I > > often drive up to Austin (doing so this weekend in fact) and might > > be convinced to tote them along but can't promise. If nobody > > wants them then it's off to the local scrapper I guess. > > > > Other stuff available soon as I sort through all these systems and > > boxes. > > > > ----- > > "What is, is what?" > > > > "When the mind is free of any thought or judgement, > > then and only then can we know things as they are." > > > > David Williams - Computer Packrat > > dlw@trailingedge.com > > http://www.trailingedge.com > > > > > -- > Gunther Schadow, M.D., Ph.D. gschadow@regenstrief.org > Medical Information Scientist Regenstrief Institute for Health Care > Adjunct Assistant Professor Indiana University School of Medicine > tel:1(317)630-7960 http://aurora.regenstrief.org > > From edick at idcomm.com Mon Oct 29 23:10:12 2001 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:10 2005 Subject: hard-sector 5 1/4 disk References: <01102921415400.02413@ws1> Message-ID: <001a01c16101$2794a880$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> Northstars, Vectors and others used them. They had a little better capacity per diskette than did the soft-sectored variety. Dick ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jim Donoghue" To: Sent: Monday, October 29, 2001 7:41 PM Subject: hard-sector 5 1/4 disk > Anybody ever see anything that uses hard sector 5 1/4 disks? I've only ever > seen one in my lifetime - just curious if they were ever used anywhere else > (the one I saw was used to load microcode into a mainframe CPU) > > From edick at idcomm.com Mon Oct 29 23:11:40 2001 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:10 2005 Subject: hard-sector 5 1/4 disk References: <013401c160f4$20ec5350$1eed9a8d@ajp166> Message-ID: <002401c16101$5bba92a0$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> Don't forget Vector, which certainly belongs on the "shot list" as well. Dick ----- Original Message ----- From: "ajp166" To: Sent: Monday, October 29, 2001 8:29 PM Subject: Re: hard-sector 5 1/4 disk > The shot list is... > > Northstar Horizon > Heath H89 > Northstart Advantage > > Likely a dozen others as awell. > > Allison > > -----Original Message----- > From: Jim Donoghue > To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org > Date: Monday, October 29, 2001 10:17 PM > Subject: hard-sector 5 1/4 disk > > > >Anybody ever see anything that uses hard sector 5 1/4 disks? I've only > ever > >seen one in my lifetime - just curious if they were ever used anywhere > else > >(the one I saw was used to load microcode into a mainframe CPU) > > > > From gunther at aurora.regenstrief.org Mon Oct 29 23:12:48 2001 From: gunther at aurora.regenstrief.org (Gunther Schadow) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:10 2005 Subject: Dec & Sun stuff available in Houston TX References: Message-ID: <3BDE36D0.3090507@aurora.regenstrief.org> Sridhar, there is a whole bunch of stuff sometime soon that I will give away, especially in preparation of other things I'm hoping to get from Houston. And there may be other things in Houston that you could have right from there. Stay tuned. Big iron is coming up :-) -Gunther One Without Reason wrote: > Awww. I wanted it. > > Peace... Sridhar > > On Mon, 29 Oct 2001, Gunther Schadow wrote: > > >>David, top, here is someone who wants the PDP-8 stuff and >>RK05 (all DEC) and I can organize pick-up through a friend >>in Houston. >> >>thanks, >>-Gunther >> >>David Williams wrote: >> >> >>>I have just spent the last few weeks living a computer collector's >>>nightmare.... moving. The entire collection had to be packed up, >>>loaded, moved and unloaded. The good part is I now have a larger >>>place and I'm taking the time to organize and get a better, newer >>>inventory. During which I've decided to pass along some things I >>>have extras of or will never get around to working with. There is >>>more to come but I'll start off with some of the larger items. >>> >>>Item 1 - DEC PDP-8 stuff. Two card cages with various boards (not >>>sure what all is in there at the moment), power distribution strip, >>>and two RK05 drives. I think I have a PDP-8A front panel that went >>>with all of it here too. All is in unknown condition. I thought I'd >>>have time to try and do something with all this once but I know now >>>I won't. >>> >>>Item 2 - Sun 3/50. System plus two 19" monitors, 2 keyboards >>>and a mouse. Unknown condition. >>> >>>Item 3 - Box of various Sun OS tapes. >>> >>>If you have something you'd like to trade me I'll be happy to >>>consider it but otherwise they're free for pick up in Houston TX. I >>>often drive up to Austin (doing so this weekend in fact) and might >>>be convinced to tote them along but can't promise. If nobody >>>wants them then it's off to the local scrapper I guess. >>> >>>Other stuff available soon as I sort through all these systems and >>>boxes. >>> >>>----- >>> "What is, is what?" >>> >>> "When the mind is free of any thought or judgement, >>> then and only then can we know things as they are." >>> >>>David Williams - Computer Packrat >>>dlw@trailingedge.com >>>http://www.trailingedge.com >>> >>> >> >>-- >>Gunther Schadow, M.D., Ph.D. gschadow@regenstrief.org >>Medical Information Scientist Regenstrief Institute for Health Care >>Adjunct Assistant Professor Indiana University School of Medicine >>tel:1(317)630-7960 http://aurora.regenstrief.org >> >> >> -- Gunther Schadow, M.D., Ph.D. gschadow@regenstrief.org Medical Information Scientist Regenstrief Institute for Health Care Adjunct Assistant Professor Indiana University School of Medicine tel:1(317)630-7960 http://aurora.regenstrief.org From vze2wsvr at verizon.net Mon Oct 29 23:26:55 2001 From: vze2wsvr at verizon.net (Eric Chomko) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:10 2005 Subject: Price guide for vintage computers References: Message-ID: <3BDE3A1F.E1DE6DC@mail.verizon.net> Tony Duell wrote: > > > If the prices are low, then everybody (however little spare money they > > > have) has a chance to get some interesting machine, if they happen to be > > > in the thrift store (or wherever) when it comes in. If the prices are > > > high, then it becomes a rich man's hobby only. I, for one, would not be > > > happy if that happened. > > > > > > > But its not a rich man's hobby as there is plenty to go around. In the > > If there is a price guide that says 'Commodore 64s are worth $200 each', > and people actually manage to sell them at that price, then there won't > be any available at prices that most of us can afford. But Commodore 64s AREN'T worth $200 and no one is going to get that price buy or sell for anything that would establish a market. Your "what if" scenario ignores actual market information. > > > > context of Apple I computers it IS a rich man's (or woman's) hobby. > > Yes, but at the moment it's still possible to find things a lot rarer and > a lot more technically interesting than Apple 1s. Even if you don't have > much money. > Great, that is what makes collecting computers fun. > > [...] > > > > > Is that so bad? Don't you want your collection to go up in value? > > > > > > WHy would I? > > > > > > > Why would you want anything to go up in value? Answer me that and I'll > > answer your question. > > Oh come on. If I bought something as an investment only (say I bought > shares in some company), then I would obviously want the value to > increase. The only 'use' for that item is to get me more money in the > future. That's why I bought it. > Fine, a computer can be both and interesting item to collect and an investment. > > But I don't treat classic computers as an investment. Their use is not to > make me money in the future. Their use is to be programmed, modified, > repaired, hacked, and so on. So the financial value doesn't matter. > That is your take, don't expect the same treatment from everyone else just because that is what you want. > > > > > One day your collectionwill be sold off, as you can't take it with you. Don't > > > > you want to get the most from your collection/investment? > > > > > > Mine won't be. Another collector in the UK gets the lot if I die. And he > > > also wants the machines for their computing interest, not to make money from. > > > > > > > Well good for you. Make sure you get that in writing and make sure it sticks. > > Yes, that is something I _must_ get round to doing, and soon. Before I > connected myself accidentally across an HV PSU, for example.... > > > Notarized and the like. Maybe donation to a museum so all can enjoy is really > > the best approach? > > > > Due to the total cluelessness of every computer museum I have ever come > across in the UK, I specifically state that no part of my collection is to > go to any museum. I'd rather my machines went to an enthusiast who will > at least look after them and use them. Rather than lose them. > Good luck, Eric > > -tony From vze2wsvr at verizon.net Mon Oct 29 23:28:27 2001 From: vze2wsvr at verizon.net (Eric Chomko) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:10 2005 Subject: hard-sector 5 1/4 disk References: <01102921415400.02413@ws1> Message-ID: <3BDE3A7B.840B5D28@mail.verizon.net> Northstar Computers used to use them for their disk systems. They were CP/M based systems, and the one I saw was hooked to a Sol-20. Eric Jim Donoghue wrote: > Anybody ever see anything that uses hard sector 5 1/4 disks? I've only ever > seen one in my lifetime - just curious if they were ever used anywhere else > (the one I saw was used to load microcode into a mainframe CPU) From dittman at dittman.net Mon Oct 29 23:33:23 2001 From: dittman at dittman.net (Eric Dittman) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:10 2005 Subject: Dec & Sun stuff available in Houston TX In-Reply-To: from "One Without Reason" at Oct 30, 2001 12:09:19 AM Message-ID: <200110300533.f9U5XNa22204@narnia.int.dittman.net> > Awww. I wanted it. Come on, Sridhar, let other people get lucky! :-) -- Eric Dittman dittman@dittman.net Check out the DEC Enthusiasts Club at http://www.dittman.net/ From vze2wsvr at verizon.net Mon Oct 29 23:49:52 2001 From: vze2wsvr at verizon.net (Eric Chomko) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:11 2005 Subject: Price guide for vintage computers References: <10109.703T700T2724329optimus@canit.se> Message-ID: <3BDE3F80.DB8A0D20@mail.verizon.net> Iggy Drougge wrote: > Eric Chomko skrev: > > >Iggy Drougge wrote: > > >> Eric Chomko skrev: > >> > >> >Price guides don't buy or see things, people do. If the thift shop or > >> >anyone else for that matter marks something and nobody buys it, then the > >> >guide is wrong. The guide is just a guide, it's goal is to be accurate not > >> >allow you to buy things cheaply or have someone else sell too high. > >> > >> I've seen what price guides have done to other markets. They've > >> establisheda branch of dealers who are in it for the money. I don't like > >> that. > > >Is that because this is your hobby or are you adverse to markets all > >together? I wish my house didn't cost me as much as it did either. But on the > >same token when I go to sell, I'll be happy that an actual market exists all > >the same. And hopefully I'll be able to sell it for more than I paid for it. > > Markets? No, I'm probably not fond of them, is there any reason to like them? No, other that they are real, and dealing in reality is better than not dealing in reality. :) > > They're ultimately driven by egoism. And I particularly don't wish my hobby to > become market-oriented. I've done fine without any classic computer market so > far. You act like you have a choice. Sorry, yes you do. You can boycott it, but not much else. > > I don't really see why you should get more for your house than you paid for it > when you bought it. Besides, I hope you don't collect houses for a hobby. > You really DON'T get the time/value of money, do you? If a bank loans someone money for a period of time, why do it if not for a larger return over time? If you think that you can get and should get an interest-free loan, then you don't have any idea about basic economics. Money MUST increase over time or else no one would ever invest, ever. > > >> >Is that so bad? Don't you want your collection to go up in value? > >> > >> Why would I want that? It's a collection of old computers, not an > >> investment. > > >Why can't it be both? And what makes you think that collecting INHERENTLY > >isn't an investment? I mean given the nature of collecting things and others > >having the same interest, whether you like it or not, it will BECOME a > >competitive market. > > Some of us would like our hobbies not to be driven by greed. I want to be able > Greed or competition? > to play with my old Sinclair without ever thinking of how much food, rent or > current computer equipment I might get if I sold it. I'd prefer if it remained > neutral in its value, or valued only be me and my fellow collector. > Fine, then do it. > Besides, I don't like collectors or collecting markets. I think filatelists, > toy collectors, comic book nerds, guitar collectors and the rest are rather > sad. They collect for the sake of collecting, and there are mags and price > guides and newsgroups, all relating to what is essentially old junk collected > by a small community of nerds, some of which happen to have deeper pockets > than others and little appreciation of the actual value of the pieces of paper > or dolls which they're collecting. It's a superficial form of collecting which > thankfully doesn't seem to have penetrated the classiccmp community yet. > But what makes you think it won't? You may not like it but really can't do much, other than boycott it (or deal with it) about it. > > >> >So you would rather keep people naive so you can get better deals? Any > >> >true market has a buy/sell spread. Why would you want to prevent classic > >> >computers from being a real market? > >> > >> Why would I want a market? My market is the fleamarket. Classic computers > >> are > > >At one level its a flea market, but go out and try to buy an Apple I. You > >will see that it becomes a big-time auction or the like. > > Well, that's sad. And I feel sorry for people who are so interested in the > exclusivity of getting an Apple I and won't settle for a replica. > But all right, how many Apple ones are there? Two? Three? Zero? They're of no > consequence whatsoever to the absolute majority of collectors. > Would the price guide just contain Apple Is, PDP-1s and ENIACs? In that case, > let Paul Allen and Steve Jobs have it. And send some to the scrappers, too. > But if it's going to be of real-world use, it will contain lists of the > computers which some of us who are lucky enough get cheaply. And if they > contain those prices, what use will the price guide be? To tell people that > old computers are worth little money? > The guide should be the average prices paid for actual machines. > > >> junk to most people, and since there is no real financial value in the > >> market even now, why would anyone desire to artifically induce higher > >> prices? > > >I am not talking about artificial prices. That's bunk. I am speaking of real > >values. Check the value of the IMSAIs, Altairs and other systems of that > >era on eBay over the last year. Several complete, clean and otherwise nice > >systems have fetched several thousands of dollars. I'd hardly call that a > >flea market. > > And what purpose would a price guide serve in this case? > It reflects actual prices paid. > > >Now a Commodore 64 is a flea market item, especially if you have to get > >a power supply from a separate deal. > > Been there, done that. =) > > >> >> the price guide lists certain things as rare and more valueable, then > >> >> the seller will likely jack up his asking price. On the other hand, what > >> >> if the seller had no idea? The chances are better for collectors to get > >> >> a "good" deal. It's just something to consider. > >> > >> >One day your collectionwill be sold off, as you can't take it with you. > >> >Don't you want to get the most from your collection/investment? > >> > >> I'm not as greedy as some people. If I got my VAX cheaply, so should > >> others. > > >I won't argue that one way or the other. I have seen Vaxes end up in the > >hands of scrap dealers too. Certainly you would hope that the value of a Vax > >is more than scrap if for no other reason for it NOT to end up recycled. I > >sure as heck would! > > Guess where I got mine - the scrap yard. =) > Good, I'm glad it didn't get recycled. > > >The source from where you got your system appreciated old systems and wanted > >it to go to a good home. Most businesses/agencies/schools aren't so > >appreciative. > > Nor will they be when they learn that people won't pay more than scrap value. > We should concentrate on getting people to understand that there may be better > homes for their old computers than the scrap yards instead of telling epople > how much to ask for things they no longer want. > Education is important, I agree. > > >> Since there is a computer collecting community, what is there to worry > >> about? > > >Who is worried? > > You're worried about the lack of a market, I'm worried about you. > But there IS a market. Go to eBay.com and look under 'vintage computers" if you don't believe me. > > >> If you've paid a nice price, there's no reason why you shouldn't get your > >> "investment" back when someone else on this list buys it off you, is there? > > >I never claimed otherwise. > > But I say any profit is superfluous. > You can say anything you want about your systems and your plans for them. > > >> Price guides and market thinking will just make people greedy, thinking > >> that they didn't get the best possible deal (is that so bloody important?) > >> and > > >The true aim of a price guide is not to allow someone to dictate prices. A > >price guide should literally reflect actually paid prices for items based > >upon averages and some agree-upon conditional standard. Speaking of > >"condition'; based upon my experience with collecting coins, sports cards and > >dabbling with stamps and books, > >'condition' > >cannot be overemphasized. > > But price guides have to be updated, and then they will reflect higher prices, Not necessarily. A true price guide shows dips too. > > giving people yet higher expectations. Price guides are a driving force in a > collecting business. With price guides come dealers who will ask what's in the > price guide, or more, and they will get to the nice things before we do, and > we'll be at their mercy. > What proof of that do you have? > > >> establish a market for dealers who will get to the surplus shops, > >> fleamarkets, giveaways and junkyards before us. I have no financial stake > >> in my collection, it's for fun, not investment. > > >Someone that inherits it one day will be very pleased that you kept it in > >nice condition. There is an old saying about collectibles, "you can't take it > >with you." > > Since I have no financial stake in my collection, I'd rather it be inherited > by someone of the same spirit. They'll certainly appreciate the condition, but > not because of its financial value. > Put it in writing when you sell or get rid of your systems. > > >> There are a lot of options in case you're looking for investments, and they > >> require neither floor space nor electricity. > > >But you act like you can stop it! The turnover rate of computer systems and > >the number of old ones lying around coupled with demand for them, will > >INHERENTLY create this market. What I am saying is, "ready or not here its > >is!' Don't shoot the messenger! > > You're not the messenger, you're the agitator. > I'm telling you what I believe will happen based upon experience in dealing with other collectibles markets. Whether you like it or not doesn't change my prediction. I could be wrong, but I doubt if I am. > > >As stated I am a collector of other things. I have a pretty nice baeball card > >and football > >(American) card and even basketball card collections. Been at it for years. I > >do a ltlle selling on the side to assist with bigger buys. I also have been > >collecting US and world coins for most of my adult life. I have attend shows > >and assisted on many a bourse floors over the past 18 years. > > And I've been collecting toys in a previous life, and have a big collection of > comics. I witnessed the commercialisation of the toy business, and I've seen > comic book "collectors", the kind who keep their books in anti-acid plastic > bags. Sad gits are what they are, they should read them, not lock them up in > plastic. > Won't argue with you about collectors, but I'm sure at least one person you know finds your computer collection "strange." > It's a philosophical difference between us. I don't like the collecting > business, since it gets in the way of the hobby itself. > Fine, I neither like it nor dislike it, I simply see it for what it is. I'll meet the market where it is and for what it is. The 'reality' thing, remember? > It's a bit like the collectable card games. Suddenly, the rich kid is always > the winner. Not because of craftiness at putting together a deck, but because > he can go to a card shop and buy individual cards with the right > characteristics. But not all the time. I still happen to have quite a nice collection of things that I managed t get before a rich kid got them. :) > > > >What I am saying is that the conversation we are having (have a price guide > >not have a price guide), has been done may times before. When the Romans > >collected the Greeks' coins 2000 years ago, I am certain the thought of a > >price guide upset some and pleased others. Same with baseball cards in the > >1970s. You could buy them in yard sales and flea markets then, but not > >anymnore. Was that good or bad? Really doesn't matter in that price guiides > >came out and there was nothing anyone could do about it. Stop collecting > >because of it? Maybe, I'm sure some actually did. > > I bailed out of the toys... > The nice thing about "things" is that even if classic computers goes the way of US stamps and gets over commeciralized and makes us all sick, there will be something else. > > >You're better off trying to get Ebay and Yahoo to remove the 'vintage' tag on > >their computer hardware category as that has legitimized the market more than > >anything else at this point. But good luck succeeding with that! > > At least that is a really "free" market. Price guides will just cement > whatever is deemed as appropriate by the author. > Then the author should be challenged and be forced to change to reflect accurate prices. Eric > > -- > En ligne avec Thor 2.6a. > > Georgie beundrade stor?gt sin pappa som med v?ldsamma slag gick l?s p? det > stora tr?det. Han badade i svett, och den muskul?sa kroppen bl?nkte i > solskenet. Hon ?lskade honom. > Lady Georgie, TMS 1983 From dlw at trailingedge.com Tue Oct 30 00:02:42 2001 From: dlw at trailingedge.com (David Williams) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:11 2005 Subject: Dec & Sun stuff available in Houston TX In-Reply-To: <200110300533.f9U5XNa22204@narnia.int.dittman.net> References: from "One Without Reason" at Oct 30, 2001 12:09:19 AM Message-ID: <3BDDEE22.17991.1E1BDAD@localhost> Gunther has laid claim to the PDP-8 stuff. If he can't pick it up I'll let people know and someone else can have a shot at it. The Sun stuff is still available if someone wants. ----- "What is, is what?" "When the mind is free of any thought or judgement, then and only then can we know things as they are." David Williams - Computer Packrat dlw@trailingedge.com http://www.trailingedge.com From rhblakeman at kih.net Tue Oct 30 00:40:37 2001 From: rhblakeman at kih.net (Russ Blakeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:11 2005 Subject: email/browser for DOS or C64/128? In-Reply-To: <200110292355.SAA24836@tisch.mail.mindspring.net> Message-ID: That's the one I couldn't remember! -> -----Original Message----- -> From: owner-classiccmp@classiccmp.org -> [mailto:owner-classiccmp@classiccmp.org]On Behalf Of -> pbboy@mindspring.com -> Sent: Monday, October 29, 2001 5:53 PM -> To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org -> Subject: Re: email/browser for DOS or C64/128? -> -> -> Arachne DOS browser -> -> www.arachne.cz -> -> -> -> From geoffr at zipcon.net Tue Oct 30 00:42:48 2001 From: geoffr at zipcon.net (Geoff Reed) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:11 2005 Subject: hard-sector 5 1/4 disk In-Reply-To: <01102921415400.02413@ws1> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20011029224208.027a38f0@mail.zipcon.net> My Northstar Horizon does, 10 sector IIRC.. also the Apple II used Hard-Sector disks (or certain disk controllers did for hte apple II) At 09:41 PM 10/29/01 -0500, you wrote: >Anybody ever see anything that uses hard sector 5 1/4 disks? I've only ever >seen one in my lifetime - just curious if they were ever used anywhere else >(the one I saw was used to load microcode into a mainframe CPU) From jss at subatomix.com Tue Oct 30 01:01:21 2001 From: jss at subatomix.com (Jeffrey S. Sharp) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:11 2005 Subject: An Organization (was: Do we have a VAX organization?) In-Reply-To: <3BDC528E.7040401@aurora.regenstrief.org> Message-ID: <20011030001344.O71146-100000@lepton.subatomix.com> On Sun, 28 Oct 2001, Gunther Schadow wrote: > I think this can start with a web site. [...] > > Another question is if this should not be a DEC/VAX only group but > rather a vintage computer stuff group, like Sellam Ismail's site. I think that what is needed most is an international organization that covers *all* vintage computers, software, and docs. We need something that's implemented well enough that most of us would be convinced to join. The best starting point I can think of is Sellam's VCF organization: * He already has one of the largest inventories of us all. That's a good start towards a "Noah's ark" collection, which I think should be one function of the organization. * He's got www.vintage.org, which would be a primo domain name for the organization. * He's got www.vintagetech.com, which would be the fundraising part of the organization. Dues could be another. * He's got experience running VCFs. Of course, Sellam would have to be interested in being the organization's fearless leader! Other things the organiztion could do: * A central, Yahoo-like web site that would become the world's foremost resource for vintage computer information. It would try to replicate all available information for preservation. Individual members would also be given a mechanism to have their collection hosted on the site under a uniform interface. Those who resist assimilation could still have their sites linked to. You could get to info either by collector name or a category/manufacturer/series/model tree. It would be wonderful... * SIGs would, of course, solidify according to demand. I imagine the VAX SIG (VSIG?) would be quite well represented. Each SIG could have its own mailing list. The whole thing would be not unlike the FreeBSD mailing list system. * Rename itself from VCF to IVCA. "International Vintage Computing Association" to outsiders, "International Vintage Computing Asylum" for insiders. :-) * I don't know... other stuff. As you can see, I'm all about grandiose ideas. Now won't someone rise up and implement them? :-) -- Jeffrey S. Sharp jss@subatomix.com From jss at subatomix.com Tue Oct 30 01:06:58 2001 From: jss at subatomix.com (Jeffrey S. Sharp) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:11 2005 Subject: Price guide for vintage computers In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20011030010326.Q71146-100000@lepton.subatomix.com> On Mon, 29 Oct 2001, Bob Brown wrote: > Instead of a price guide, how bout a spotting/indentification guide > with info on identifying computers and components and options without > any pricing info? Yes. I've been meaning to do something like that for a particularly obsessed-with-garage-sales family member of mine. You'd be surprised what that person has found already. -- Jeffrey S. Sharp jss@subatomix.com From jss at subatomix.com Tue Oct 30 01:50:50 2001 From: jss at subatomix.com (Jeffrey S. Sharp) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:11 2005 Subject: Acronyms In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20011030010857.G71146-100000@lepton.subatomix.com> Here's my stab at a few of yours: > FA - For Auction > FAE - For All Ears > TMK - To My Knowledge And my own (obvious) additions: > AFK - Away From Keyboard > BSOD - Blue Screen Of Death > FPS - First-Person Shooter > FYIFV - F*** You I'm Fully Vested > FUBAR - F***ed Up Beyond All Reason > FUD - Fear, Uncertainty, and Doubt > LOL - Laughing Out Loud > N1 - Nice one (from FPSes) > NS - Nice Shot (from FPSes) > MOTD - Message Of The Day > POD - Priest Of Discord (from Everquest) > STFU - Shut The F*** Up > TMTOWTDI - There's More Than One Way To Do It > WYSIAYG - What You See Is All You Get And stimulating my passive vocabulary with Jargon File 4.3.1: > 1TBS - one True Brace Style > BOFH - Bastard Operator From Hell > DED - Dark-Emitting Diode > FOAF - Friend Of A Friend > GIGO - Garbage In, Garbage Out > HTH - Hope This Helps > IWBNI - It Would Be Nice IF > IYFEG - Insert Your Favorite Ethnic Group > LER - Light-Emitting Resistor > MOTxS - Member Of The Sex > OTOH - On The Other Hand > PHB - Pointy-Haired Boss > RSN - Real Soon Now > SIG - Special Interest Group > SO - Significant Other > UCE - Unsolicited Commercial E-Mail > WIMP - Window, Icon, Menu, Pointing device > WIBNI - Wouldn't It Be Nice If > YHBT - You Have Been Trolled > YKYBHTLW - You Know You've Been Hacking Too Long When -- Jeffrey S. Sharp jss@subatomix.com From vcf at vintage.org Tue Oct 30 01:52:05 2001 From: vcf at vintage.org (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:11 2005 Subject: An Organization (was: Do we have a VAX organization?) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Mon, 29 Oct 2001, Jeffrey Sharp wrote: > I think that what is needed most is an international organization that > covers *all* vintage computers, software, and docs. We need something > that's implemented well enough that most of us would be convinced to join. > The best starting point I can think of is Sellam's VCF organization: > > * He already has one of the largest inventories of us all. That's a good > start towards a "Noah's ark" collection, which I think should be one > function of the organization. This is in fact one of my missions. I know I won't be able to get every single model of every single computer, but I can get close. And this has applications of both practicality and posterity. > * He's got www.vintage.org, which would be a primo domain name for the > organization. > > * He's got www.vintagetech.com, which would be the fundraising part of the > organization. Dues could be another. Um, for now, the funds that VintageTech generates are intended for the Sellam Ismail organization of getting by ;) > * He's got experience running VCFs. True dat. > Of course, Sellam would have to be interested in being the organization's > fearless leader! I appreciate being nominated for this lofty organization. In fact, what you've described is what I've been working towards for the past 4-5 years. It's just gone much slower and taken much longer than anticipated due to distractions and detours in my life. And this is hard work, especially for one guy. > Other things the organiztion could do: > > * A central, Yahoo-like web site that would become the world's foremost > resource for vintage computer information. It would try to replicate > all available information for preservation. Individual members would > also be given a mechanism to have their collection hosted on the site > under a uniform interface. Those who resist assimilation could still > have their sites linked to. You could get to info either by > collector name or a category/manufacturer/series/model tree. It would > be wonderful... One day the VCF website will be this portal. > * SIGs would, of course, solidify according to demand. I imagine the VAX > SIG (VSIG?) would be quite well represented. Each SIG could have its > own mailing list. The whole thing would be not unlike the FreeBSD > mailing list system. One of the next things on the agenda (after finishing the VCF Marketplace) is a messaging system. Of course, I don't know how useful this will be in the face of this list and other very active and strong lists. I'll put the tools out there, it'll be up to folks to put them to good use. > * Rename itself from VCF to IVCA. "International Vintage Computing > Association" to outsiders, "International Vintage Computing Asylum" > for insiders. :-) The VCF will eventually become an international "society" dedicated to the preservation of old computers and computer history. The VCF events are to be yearly gatherings that cap off activities that occur throughout the year. My desire for the past couple years has been to sponsor local computer collector clubs throughout the world, to create local interest that then grows into a connected network of clubs. > > * I don't know... other stuff. > > As you can see, I'm all about grandiose ideas. Now won't someone rise up > and implement them? :-) Me too. If I could get organized enough to create an actual organization then things would move faster. Of course it would require the sacrifices of other people interested in seeing this vision implemented. Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org From jss at subatomix.com Tue Oct 30 02:03:56 2001 From: jss at subatomix.com (Jeffrey S. Sharp) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:11 2005 Subject: Dec & Sun stuff available in Houston TX In-Reply-To: <3BDE30FB.3040309@aurora.regenstrief.org> Message-ID: <20011030020100.G71146-100000@lepton.subatomix.com> On Mon, 29 Oct 2001, Gunther Schadow wrote: > David, top, here is someone who wants the PDP-8 stuff and > RK05 (all DEC) and I can organize pick-up through a friend > in Houston. Grrr. I thought I didn't have any competition in my part of the country. Very grrr. :-) -- Jeffrey S. Sharp jss@subatomix.com From jss at subatomix.com Tue Oct 30 02:16:38 2001 From: jss at subatomix.com (Jeffrey S. Sharp) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:11 2005 Subject: Dec & Sun stuff available in Houston TX In-Reply-To: <3BDDEE22.17991.1E1BDAD@localhost> Message-ID: <20011030020458.W71146-100000@lepton.subatomix.com> On Tue, 30 Oct 2001, David Williams wrote: > Gunther has laid claim to the PDP-8 stuff. If he can't pick it up I'll > let people know and someone else can have a shot at it. The Sun > stuff is still available if someone wants. I'd possibly like to pick up the Sun stuff in Austin if that can be arranged. I will hopefully be making a small trek to Austin this (or some near) Sunday to see Bill Bradford. I'm still waiting for a reply from Bill though. -- Jeffrey S. Sharp jss@subatomix.com From technos at nerdland.org Tue Oct 30 06:10:42 2001 From: technos at nerdland.org (Jim) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:11 2005 Subject: Acronyms Message-ID: <01C16111.FDB6D2C0.technos@nerdland.org> Try this one. Just saw it scroll by a bit ago. 12 pal lfp 4 CB/BB (Emp!) or pt to WC from PoD, will donate or 2s BW On Tuesday, October 30, 2001 2:51 AM, Jeffrey S. Sharp [SMTP:jss@subatomix.com] wrote: > > POD - Priest Of Discord (from Everquest) From dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com Tue Oct 30 06:18:22 2001 From: dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com (Douglas Quebbeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:11 2005 Subject: hard-sector 5 1/4 disk Message-ID: <7A9BACCEF0171D4FB77019F5104CDD37225847@jeffserver.tegjeff.com> > Anybody ever see anything that uses hard sector 5 1/4 disks? I've only ever > seen one in my lifetime - just curious if they were ever used anywhere else > (the one I saw was used to load microcode into a mainframe CPU) Some models (maybe all?) of the Heath-Zenith H-89 or H-90? used them... -dq From dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com Tue Oct 30 06:23:19 2001 From: dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com (Douglas Quebbeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:11 2005 Subject: Acronyms Message-ID: <7A9BACCEF0171D4FB77019F5104CDD37225848@jeffserver.tegjeff.com> > Here's my stab at a few of yours: > > > FA - For Auction > > FAE - For All Ears > > TMK - To My Knowledge > > And my own (obvious) additions: Good additions... another that should be on the list is SWMBO... She Who Must Be Obeyed. -dq From vze2wsvr at verizon.net Tue Oct 30 09:19:39 2001 From: vze2wsvr at verizon.net (Eric Chomko) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:11 2005 Subject: Acronyms References: <7A9BACCEF0171D4FB77019F5104CDD37225848@jeffserver.tegjeff.com> Message-ID: <3BDEC50B.334298B7@verizon.net> > I'm not sure if the following have been added: IIRC - if I recall correctly ROFL - rolling on floor laughing ROFLMAO - rolling on floor laughing my ass off ROFLMAOGSFTH - rolling on floor laughing my ass off getting spliters from the hardwood > > Here's my stab at a few of yours: > > > > > FA - For Auction > > > FAE - For All Ears > > > TMK - To My Knowledge > > > > And my own (obvious) additions: > > Good additions... another that should be on the list > is SWMBO... She Who Must Be Obeyed. > > -dq From jss at subatomix.com Tue Oct 30 09:58:31 2001 From: jss at subatomix.com (Jeffrey S. Sharp) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:11 2005 Subject: Acronyms In-Reply-To: <01C16111.FDB6D2C0.technos@nerdland.org> Message-ID: <20011030093251.B72532-100000@lepton.subatomix.com> On Tue, 30 Oct 2001, Jim wrote: > Try this one. Just saw it scroll by a bit ago. > > 12 pal lfp 4 CB/BB (Emp!) or pt to WC from PoD, will donate or 2s BW "I am a level 12 paladin, and I'm looking for partners. I want to hunt in Crushbone (and take on Emperor Crushbone!) or Butcherblock Mountains. Or rather, if you could just teleport me to Western Commonlands from where the Priest of Discord is, I'd be happy to pay you a small amount or give you 2 stacks (40) of bat wings." Also, the text implies that the speaker is located in Greater Faydark. All in all, that's a darn good compression ratio! -- Jeffrey S. Sharp jss@subatomix.com From DAW at yalepress3.unipress.yale.edu Tue Oct 30 10:04:39 2001 From: DAW at yalepress3.unipress.yale.edu (David Woyciesjes) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:11 2005 Subject: value of classic DEC machines? Message-ID: <9011A52E011ED311B4280004AC1BA615014671D6@yalepress3.unipress.yale.edu> ! > If you have electric heating anyway, then it shouldn't make much ! > difference to the overall electricity bill, surely... ! > ! Well, a heat pump (an air conditioner that runs in reverse) ! does work a little more efficiently than TTL logic for heating ! the house. My biggest problem is coming up with a way to duct ! the heat from the 11/70 to the rest of the house. It still seems ! that I end up with the heat on in the house, and the windows ! open in the room with the 11/70. What about something like an exhaust hood over the 11/70, and a fan? --- David A Woyciesjes --- C & IS Support Specialist --- Yale University Press --- mailto:david.woyciesjes@yale.edu --- (203) 432-0953 --- ICQ # - 905818 From DAW at yalepress3.unipress.yale.edu Tue Oct 30 10:11:45 2001 From: DAW at yalepress3.unipress.yale.edu (David Woyciesjes) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:11 2005 Subject: Dec & Sun stuff available in Houston TX Message-ID: <9011A52E011ED311B4280004AC1BA615014671D7@yalepress3.unipress.yale.edu> Too bad I'm way up here in CT. I'd grab the Sun stuff, just so it wouldn't hit the scrapper... --- David A Woyciesjes --- C & IS Support Specialist --- Yale University Press --- mailto:david.woyciesjes@yale.edu --- (203) 432-0953 --- ICQ # - 905818 ! -----Original Message----- ! From: David Williams [mailto:dlw@trailingedge.com] ! Sent: Tuesday, October 30, 2001 1:03 AM ! To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org ! Subject: Re: Dec & Sun stuff available in Houston TX ! ! ! Gunther has laid claim to the PDP-8 stuff. If he can't pick ! it up I'll ! let people know and someone else can have a shot at it. The Sun ! stuff is still available if someone wants. ! ! ----- ! "What is, is what?" ! ! "When the mind is free of any thought or judgement, ! then and only then can we know things as they are." ! ! David Williams - Computer Packrat ! dlw@trailingedge.com ! http://www.trailingedge.com ! From LFessen106 at aol.com Tue Oct 30 10:47:38 2001 From: LFessen106 at aol.com (LFessen106@aol.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:11 2005 Subject: Dec & Sun stuff available in Houston TX Message-ID: <111.7971746.291033aa@aol.com> In a message dated 10/30/01 11:26:10 AM Eastern Standard Time, DAW@yalepress3.unipress.yale.edu writes: > Too bad I'm way up here in CT. I'd grab the Sun stuff, just so it > wouldn't hit the scrapper... > > --- David A Woyciesjes You'd have a fight on yer hands Dave! -Linc Fessenden In The Beginning there was nothing, which exploded - Yeah right... Calculating in binary code is as easy as 01,10,11. From optimus at canit.se Mon Oct 29 22:09:23 2001 From: optimus at canit.se (Iggy Drougge) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:11 2005 Subject: Classic Gaming OT and OT / Re: OT: Playstation 2 opinion? In-Reply-To: <3BDE117A.F0B68BA7@verizon.net> Message-ID: <421.703T1150T3094939optimus@canit.se> Ian Koller skrev: >Iggy Drougge wrote: >> A computer with just an RS-232 connection to the outside world >> just isn't as interesting, IMO. >Ahh, but put a fast modem on that RS232, and with the internet, >it's a whole ( brave ) new world. But then how would I reach the box? Through the modem? ;-) -- En ligne avec Thor 2.6a. Was ist ein Erwachsener? Ein Kind, das vom Alter aufgepumpt ist. --- Simone de Beauvoir From optimus at canit.se Tue Oct 30 10:01:43 2001 From: optimus at canit.se (Iggy Drougge) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:11 2005 Subject: Price guide for vintage computers In-Reply-To: <3BDE3F80.DB8A0D20@mail.verizon.net> Message-ID: <11790.703T2150T10215335optimus@canit.se> Eric Chomko skrev: >Iggy Drougge wrote: >> Eric Chomko skrev: >> >> >Iggy Drougge wrote: >> >> >> I've seen what price guides have done to other markets. They've >> >> establisheda branch of dealers who are in it for the money. I don't like >> >> that. >> >> >Is that because this is your hobby or are you adverse to markets all >> >together? I wish my house didn't cost me as much as it did either. But on >> >the same token when I go to sell, I'll be happy that an actual market >> >exists all the same. And hopefully I'll be able to sell it for more than I >> >paid for it. >> >> Markets? No, I'm probably not fond of them, is there any reason to like >> them? >No, other that they are real, and dealing in reality is better than not >dealing in reality. :) Is that any reason to like them? >> They're ultimately driven by egoism. And I particularly don't wish my hobby >> to become market-oriented. I've done fine without any classic computer >> market so far. >You act like you have a choice. Sorry, yes you do. You can boycott it, but >not much else. What do you call a self-fulfilling prophecy in English? >> I don't really see why you should get more for your house than you paid for >> it when you bought it. Besides, I hope you don't collect houses for a >> hobby. >You really DON'T get the time/value of money, do you? If a bank loans someone >money for a period of time, why do it if not for a larger return over time? Well, that's the raison d'?tre of a bank. But not of computer collecting. >If you >think that you can get and should get an interest-free loan, then you don't >have any idea about basic economics. Money MUST increase over time or else no >one would ever invest, ever. Why not? Investing in a house gives you roof over the head. That's a fine investment IMO. >> >> Why would I want that? It's a collection of old computers, not an >> >> investment. >> >> >Why can't it be both? And what makes you think that collecting INHERENTLY >> >isn't an investment? I mean given the nature of collecting things and >> >others having the same interest, whether you like it or not, it will >> >BECOME a competitive market. >> >> Some of us would like our hobbies not to be driven by greed. I want to be >> able >Greed or competition? Hopefully neither. =) >> to play with my old Sinclair without ever thinking of how much food, rent >> or current computer equipment I might get if I sold it. I'd prefer if it >> remained neutral in its value, or valued only be me and my fellow >> collector. >Fine, then do it. But in a market-driven collecting craze, I might not be able to do so. At least not if I'm going to play with anything but the C64 or the Spectrum. >> Besides, I don't like collectors or collecting markets. I think >> filatelists, toy collectors, comic book nerds, guitar collectors and the >> rest are rather sad. They collect for the sake of collecting, and there are >> mags and price guides and newsgroups, all relating to what is essentially >> old junk collected by a small community of nerds, some of which happen to >> have deeper pockets than others and little appreciation of the actual value >> of the pieces of paper or dolls which they're collecting. It's a >> superficial form of collecting which thankfully doesn't seem to have >> penetrated the classiccmp community yet. >But what makes you think it won't? You may not like it but really can't do >much, other than boycott it (or deal with it) about it. Your point being? Can't we discuss whether we like it or not instead of whether it will happen? If it is inevitable, it certainly doesn't need any evangelists (i e you). >> >> junk to most people, and since there is no real financial value in the >> >> market even now, why would anyone desire to artifically induce higher >> >> prices? >> >> >I am not talking about artificial prices. That's bunk. I am speaking of >> >real values. Check the value of the IMSAIs, Altairs and other systems of >> >that era on eBay over the last year. Several complete, clean and otherwise >> >nice systems have fetched several thousands of dollars. I'd hardly call >> >that a flea market. >> >> And what purpose would a price guide serve in this case? >It reflects actual prices paid. I repeat my question. >> >> I'm not as greedy as some people. If I got my VAX cheaply, so should >> >> others. >> >> >I won't argue that one way or the other. I have seen Vaxes end up in the >> >hands of scrap dealers too. Certainly you would hope that the value of a >> >Vax is more than scrap if for no other reason for it NOT to end up >> >recycled. I sure as heck would! >> >> Guess where I got mine - the scrap yard. =) >Good, I'm glad it didn't get recycled. So am I. But no price guide in the world would change that. People (or rather companies, institutions and governing bodies) are throwing out machines running at several hundred MHz right now. They end up at the junkyard, or are bought from the scrappers by greedy dealers. They have a very obvious market value. So if they throw out things only a few years old, with actual aftermarket value, what is going to persuade them not to throw away equipment which is over ten years old? No price guide in the world will do that, and probably not information campaign either. >> >> Since there is a computer collecting community, what is there to worry >> >> about? >> >> >Who is worried? >> >> You're worried about the lack of a market, I'm worried about you. >But there IS a market. Go to eBay.com and look under 'vintage computers" >if you don't believe me. I know, I've been there, I've even shopped on eBay on occasion. And it's a market which seems quite healthy without any price guides. >> >> If you've paid a nice price, there's no reason why you shouldn't get >> >> your "investment" back when someone else on this list buys it off you, >> >> is there? >> >> >I never claimed otherwise. >> >> But I say any profit is superfluous. >You can say anything you want about your systems and your plans for them. ?? I don't disagree that you should be able to get your "investment" back when you sell off your old computers, if they were bought old, and you didn't pay an exaggerated price, but why should you get anything above the price you paid? Because you're worth it? >> >> Price guides and market thinking will just make people greedy, thinking >> >> that they didn't get the best possible deal (is that so bloody >> >> important?) and >> >> >The true aim of a price guide is not to allow someone to dictate prices. A >> >price guide should literally reflect actually paid prices for items based >> >upon averages and some agree-upon conditional standard. Speaking of >> >"condition'; based upon my experience with collecting coins, sports cards >> >and dabbling with stamps and books, >> >'condition' >> >cannot be overemphasized. >> >> But price guides have to be updated, and then they will reflect higher >> prices, >Not necessarily. A true price guide shows dips too. That certainly doesn't seem like an interesting price guide. After all people, want to get a profit on their investments. >> giving people yet higher expectations. Price guides are a driving force in >> a collecting business. With price guides come dealers who will ask what's >> in the price guide, or more, and they will get to the nice things before we >> do, and we'll be at their mercy. >What proof of that do you have? Only experience. >> >> establish a market for dealers who will get to the surplus shops, >> >> fleamarkets, giveaways and junkyards before us. I have no financial >> >> stake in my collection, it's for fun, not investment. >> >> >Someone that inherits it one day will be very pleased that you kept it in >> >nice condition. There is an old saying about collectibles, "you can't take >> >it with you." >> >> Since I have no financial stake in my collection, I'd rather it be >> inherited by someone of the same spirit. They'll certainly appreciate the >> condition, but not because of its financial value. >Put it in writing when you sell or get rid of your systems. ?? >> >> There are a lot of options in case you're looking for investments, and >> >> they require neither floor space nor electricity. >> >> >But you act like you can stop it! The turnover rate of computer systems >> >and the number of old ones lying around coupled with demand for them, will >> >INHERENTLY create this market. What I am saying is, "ready or not here its >> >is!' Don't shoot the messenger! >> >> You're not the messenger, you're the agitator. >I'm telling you what I believe will happen based upon experience in dealing >with other collectibles markets. Whether you like it or not doesn't change my >prediction. I could be wrong, but I doubt if I am. I'm telling you it will happen, too, especially when there is a price guide. And I don't like it one bit. For some reason, you seem to like it. Why? Are you a masochist? >> >As stated I am a collector of other things. I have a pretty nice baeball >> >card and football >> >(American) card and even basketball card collections. Been at it for >> >years. I do a ltlle selling on the side to assist with bigger buys. I also >> >have been collecting US and world coins for most of my adult life. I have >> >attend shows and assisted on many a bourse floors over the past 18 years. >> >> And I've been collecting toys in a previous life, and have a big collection >> of comics. I witnessed the commercialisation of the toy business, and I've >> seen comic book "collectors", the kind who keep their books in anti-acid >> plastic bags. Sad gits are what they are, they should read them, not lock >> them up in plastic. >Won't argue with you about collectors, but I'm sure at least one person you >know finds your computer collection "strange." So let them. Sad gits are what they are. =) >> It's a philosophical difference between us. I don't like the collecting >> business, since it gets in the way of the hobby itself. >Fine, I neither like it nor dislike it, I simply see it for what it is. I'll >meet the market where it is and for what it is. The 'reality' thing, >remember? Oh, but you seem hell-bent on meeting the market whether it exists or not, and you seem quite enthusiastic about it. >> It's a bit like the collectable card games. Suddenly, the rich kid is >> always the winner. Not because of craftiness at putting together a deck, >> but because he can go to a card shop and buy individual cards with the >> right characteristics. >But not all the time. I still happen to have quite a nice collection of >things that I managed t get before a rich kid got them. :) IOW before the collecting/investment craze. >The nice thing about "things" is that even if classic computers goes the way >of US >stamps and gets over commeciralized and makes us all sick, there will be >something >else. Now you're sounding like someone who's just lost his girlfriend. >> >You're better off trying to get Ebay and Yahoo to remove the 'vintage' tag >> >on their computer hardware category as that has legitimized the market >> >more than anything else at this point. But good luck succeeding with that! >> >> At least that is a really "free" market. Price guides will just cement >> whatever is deemed as appropriate by the author. >Then the author should be challenged and be forced to change to reflect >accurate prices. No, he should be castrated and hung upside down outside Microsoft headquarters. -- En ligne avec Thor 2.6a. Php/fi: The syntax does a very good job on combining the drawbacks of C with the disadvantages of Perl, in general resulting in a completely unreadable sequence of seemingly random characters. Therefor it became quite popular among Unix-fossils. -- README for the HTML preprocessor "hsc" From gwynp at artware.qc.ca Tue Oct 30 10:10:24 2001 From: gwynp at artware.qc.ca (gwynp@artware.qc.ca) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:11 2005 Subject: Acronyms In-Reply-To: <20011030010857.G71146-100000@lepton.subatomix.com> Message-ID: On 30-Oct-2001 Jeffrey S. Sharp wrote: >> STFU - Shut The F*** Up On IRC we often intone "STFW Search The F***ing Web" when folks ask questions whos answers are a simple Google search away. -Philip From cisin at xenosoft.com Tue Oct 30 12:23:10 2001 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin (XenoSoft)) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:11 2005 Subject: hard-sector 5 1/4 disk In-Reply-To: <01102921415400.02413@ws1> Message-ID: LOTS (hundreds) of machines used hard-sectored diskettes, such as Northstar, SOME models of Heath/Zenith (NOT ALL), Vector, Lanier, etc. 1) NO, APPLE ][ IS NOT HARD SECTORED! Apple is COMPLETELY soft-sectored. While MOST machines that were soft-sectored started the track with the index pulse, Apple and Commodore ignored even the index pulse. Therefore, they would work with soft-sectored diskettes, hard-sectored diskettes, upside down diskettes with a write enable notch punched, etc. 2) NO, it has nothing to do with using a 6502. From cisin at xenosoft.com Tue Oct 30 12:32:24 2001 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin (XenoSoft)) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:11 2005 Subject: hard-sector 5 1/4 disk In-Reply-To: <20011030033021.OFJP21044.femail29.sdc1.sfba.home.com@BENCHBOX> Message-ID: > I do know that lots of drive controllers use the index hole of > soft-sectored disks to time the disk's rotation in order to determine > which type drive is running on it. doubtful although some use it for a "drive not ready" signal. > 92/180/320/720k disks rotate at 300rpm > and 'high-density' drives like 77track 8' hd and your standard 1.44mb > floppy drives rotate at 360rpm. NOPE! 8" is 360RPM "normal" 5.25" is 300 RPM "high density" ("1.2M") 5.25" thinks that it is an 8" and is at 360RPM (SOME switch speeds when doing 360K in a 1.2M, SOME (such as IBM!) rely on a change in the data transfer rate) 3.5" 1.4M (I have NEVER seen a 1.44M format!) are also at 300RPM > Some drives by other makers run at odd > speeds. Atari 8-bit drives generally run at 288rpm and this makes a > difference esp when reading copy-protected disks. And some, such as Weltec, operate at half of "normal" speed (180 RPM) in order to handle "high density" with "normal density" data transfer rates. From cisin at xenosoft.com Tue Oct 30 12:34:40 2001 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin (XenoSoft)) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:11 2005 Subject: hard-sector 5 1/4 disk In-Reply-To: <013401c160f4$20ec5350$1eed9a8d@ajp166> Message-ID: On Mon, 29 Oct 2001, ajp166 wrote: > The shot list is... While I much prefer soft-sectored, "Western Digital style" formats, such as those produced with WD179x and NEC765, I'm not sure that the hard-sectored folk necessarily deserve to be shot. ... From jhellige at earthlink.net Tue Oct 30 10:21:00 2001 From: jhellige at earthlink.net (Jeff Hellige) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:11 2005 Subject: Acronyms In-Reply-To: <20011030093251.B72532-100000@lepton.subatomix.com> References: <20011030093251.B72532-100000@lepton.subatomix.com> Message-ID: <01Oct30.142044est.119085@gateway.mediacen.navy.mil> >On Tue, 30 Oct 2001, Jim wrote: > > Try this one. Just saw it scroll by a bit ago. >> >> 12 pal lfp 4 CB/BB (Emp!) or pt to WC from PoD, will donate or 2s BW > >"I am a level 12 paladin, and I'm looking for partners. I want to hunt in >Crushbone (and take on Emperor Crushbone!) or Butcherblock Mountains. Or >rather, if you could just teleport me to Western Commonlands from where >the Priest of Discord is, I'd be happy to pay you a small amount or give >you 2 stacks (40) of bat wings." > >Also, the text implies that the speaker is located in Greater Faydark. >All in all, that's a darn good compression ratio! That's impressive.....what'd you use as a guide for deciphering that? Jeff -- Home of the TRS-80 Model 2000 FAQ File http://www.cchaven.com http://www.geocities.com/siliconvalley/lakes/6757 From paul at orchard.wccnet.org Tue Oct 30 13:27:49 2001 From: paul at orchard.wccnet.org (Paul R. Santa-Maria) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:11 2005 Subject: Apple II SCSI card Message-ID: Rich Beaudry: You have an Apple II Rev C SCSI card, not the High Speed card. Below is a comp.sys.apple2 post with more details about the card, including some limitations. I have one in my IIgs. I also have the original manual and software, but the Chinook SCSI Utilities (CSU) software is better (see below). I can provide you with copies of this stuff. I can point you to online sources of disk images if you can handle them. For others with Rev A or Rev B versions, I can make Rev C EPROMs. Paul R. Santa-Maria Monroe, Michigan USA From: David Empson (dempson@actrix.gen.nz) Subject: Re: Apple II SCSI Card rev C - Latest Revision? Newsgroups: comp.sys.apple2 Date: 1998/09/11 Brian wrote: > I just acquired an 1996 Apple II SCSI Card revision C, for my ROM 1 > IIgs. I think you'll find that date was 1986, not 96. :-) > Is "C" the last revision of this card? There is only one version of the physical card. "Revision C" refers to the firmware version. The ROM should be labelled "341-0437-A" if it is revision C. Revision C is the last release of the firwmare for this card. > Are there any problems I should be aware of? Many. Where should I start? 1. The card is not terminated. If you are connecting more than one device, you must place a pass-through terminator between the card and the first device (or internal termination in the first device), as well as after the last device on the chain. If you are connecting a single device, it should have internal termination or a piggy-back terminator. 2. The card does not supply termination power. There is a single diode modification that can rectify this. Another option (my preference) is to make sure that at least one of the connected devices is able to supply termination power. 3. The firmware is limited to seven logical partitions. These partitions may be spread over as many as 7 SCSI devices connected to the card. Under ProDOS-8, this gives a practical limit of 224 MB accessible over all volumes. Note that you need to be running ProDOS-8 2.0.1 or later to be able to access more than 4 partitions, and this requires at least an enhanced IIe. Under earlier ProDOS versions, you can only access 3 or 4 partitions if the card is in slot 5. The seven partition limit does not apply under GS/OS, which uses its own drivers. 4. The firmware doesn't fully support removable hard drives, including devices like ZIP drives. The problem is that if you switch disks, the firwmare does not update its saved copy of the partition table. This can easily result in corruption of the new disk if it is not partitioned EXACTLY the same as the previous one (right down to the starting block number and number of blocks in each partition). This problem doesn't affect GS/OS, and you can work around it under ProDOS-8 by rebooting if you need to change disks. Note that if you boot via GS/OS and then get into ProDOS-8, quitting to GS/OS and relaunching ProDOS-8 might not be sufficient to reinitialize the firmware (I haven't investigated this). 5. The firwmare only supports SCSI hard disks and CD-ROM drives. CD Audio operations are only supported with Apple's original CDSC, CDSC+ and CD-150. This isn't likely to be a major issue. 6. The card is slow. The Apple High-Speed (DMA) SCSI card is a lot faster (as long as DMA can be used), and the RamFast is even better. 7. The partitioning software that comes with it is pretty limited. If you didn't get the disk, this isn't an issue. A much nicer 8-bit alternative is Chinook SCSI Utilities, which is now freeware. (I don't know of a source for it off-hand.) You can also use Advanced Disk Utility under GS/OS. -- David Empson dempson@actrix.gen.nz Snail mail: P.O. Box 27-103, Wellington, New Zealand From jss at subatomix.com Tue Oct 30 13:44:25 2001 From: jss at subatomix.com (Jeffrey S. Sharp) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:11 2005 Subject: Acronyms In-Reply-To: <01Oct30.142044est.119085@gateway.mediacen.navy.mil> Message-ID: <20011030134153.Y72532-100000@lepton.subatomix.com> > > > Try this one. Just saw it scroll by a bit ago. > > > > > > 12 pal lfp 4 CB/BB (Emp!) or pt to WC from PoD, > > > will donate or 2s BW > > > > "I am a level 12 paladin, and I'm looking for partners. I want to > > hunt in Crushbone (and take on Emperor Crushbone!) or Butcherblock > > Mountains. Or rather, if you could just teleport me to Western > > Commonlands from where the Priest of Discord is, I'd be happy to pay > > you a small amount or give you 2 stacks (40) of bat wings." > > > > Also, the text implies that the speaker is located in Greater Faydark. > > That's impressive.....what'd you use as a guide for deciphering that? One year of playing EQ. -- Jeffrey S. Sharp jss@subatomix.com From DAW at yalepress3.unipress.yale.edu Tue Oct 30 13:52:16 2001 From: DAW at yalepress3.unipress.yale.edu (David Woyciesjes) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:11 2005 Subject: OT: Question for American Subscribers... Message-ID: <9011A52E011ED311B4280004AC1BA615014671DF@yalepress3.unipress.yale.edu> Why would a large computer retailer (CompUSA) stop selling gift certificates at this time of year? Might CompUSA be going titsup.com? --- David A Woyciesjes --- C & IS Support Specialist --- Yale University Press --- mailto:david.woyciesjes@yale.edu --- (203) 432-0953 --- ICQ # - 905818 From Dan at snip.net Tue Oct 30 13:59:13 2001 From: Dan at snip.net (Dan Schwartz) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:11 2005 Subject: CompUSA going titsup.com? [WAS: Question for American Subscribers...] In-Reply-To: <9011A52E011ED311B4280004AC1BA615014671DF@yalepress3.unipress.yale.edu> Message-ID: Why did CompUSA stop selling gift certificates? Perhaps instead of putting the sales proceeds from the gift certificates in escrow, they invested the funds in a Risky Scheme. They then become "unfunded liabilities" (which is what accountants call them) if the money behind the gift certificates is lost. Keep an eye on the Security & Exchange Commission's EDGAR for any CompUSA filings, indicating any material change. http://www.sec.gov/edgar/searchedgar/webusers.htm Cheers! Dan -> Visit the Clinton Presidential Library at: >-----Original Message----- >From: David Woyciesjes [mailto:DAW@yalepress3.unipress.yale.edu] >Sent: Tuesday, October 30, 2001 2:52 PM >Subject: OT: Question for American Subscribers... > > > Why would a large computer retailer (CompUSA) stop selling gift >certificates at this time of year? Might CompUSA be going titsup.com? > >--- David A Woyciesjes >--- C & IS Support Specialist >--- Yale University Press >--- mailto:david.woyciesjes@yale.edu >--- (203) 432-0953 >--- ICQ # - 905818 > From lists at joules.org Mon Oct 29 07:56:29 2001 From: lists at joules.org (Peter Joules) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:11 2005 Subject: value of scrap In-Reply-To: <026b01c16032$455defe0$de2c67cb@helpdesk> References: <3BDCD06A.13FF@verizon.net> <026b01c16032$455defe0$de2c67cb@helpdesk> Message-ID: <01102908562901.26118@pluto.joules.org> On Sunday 28 October 2001 11:29 pm, you wrote: > ----- Original Message ----- > > > It sucks that these people would rather scrap out a machine > > > than let a collector have it for free. > > > > It translates to ... > > > > "it sucks that people won't give away free money" > > Sad but true > Here in the UK that might change soon. It is about to become illegal to send electronic waste to landfill so it _must_ be recycled. As soon as one has no choice but to send stuff to scrap merchants, they then tend to start charging for taking it away instead of paying for it. I have already seen the same happen with lead-acid batteries and old fridges, to name but two examples, when the legislation came in stopping them being disposed of by other means than sending them for scrap. -- Regards Pete From Lowndesz at aol.com Tue Oct 30 14:30:45 2001 From: Lowndesz at aol.com (Lowndesz@aol.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:11 2005 Subject: Re. Hunt for DRV11-WA / DRV11-SA Field Maintenance Print Sets Message-ID: <167.314e3ea.291067f5@aol.com> To whom it may concern, I am trying to find Field Maintenance Print Sets for the following cards: - DRV11-WA - DRV11-SA I would be most grateful if you have any suggestions as to where I might find these. Many thanks, Kathryn Stewart l P.S. We are posting a reward of a bottle of French champagne for originals or good copies of the above two sets of schematics - thanks. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20011030/07ebdb34/attachment.html From pete at dunnington.u-net.com Tue Oct 30 14:19:35 2001 From: pete at dunnington.u-net.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:11 2005 Subject: hard-sector 5 1/4 disk In-Reply-To: "Fred Cisin (XenoSoft)" "Re: hard-sector 5 1/4 disk" (Oct 30, 10:32) References: Message-ID: <10110302019.ZM26540@mindy.dunnington.u-net.com> On Oct 30, 10:32, Fred Cisin (XenoSoft) wrote: > 3.5" 1.4M (I have NEVER seen a 1.44M format!) are also at 300RPM However, many original 3.5" (SSDD not HD) ran at 600rpm, but with 2x the normal data rate (so the disks could also be used in 300rpm drives at normal data rates). -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager University of York From dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com Tue Oct 30 14:43:07 2001 From: dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com (Douglas Quebbeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:11 2005 Subject: [OT] New toy... Message-ID: <7A9BACCEF0171D4FB77019F5104CDD37225850@jeffserver.tegjeff.com> > Ian Koller wrote: > > > > > IMHO - in my humble opinion Oh, yeah, David W. reminded me of another one to add to the list: TU - tits up, or Tango Ultra in (I think) pilot talk... -dq From chris at mainecoon.com Tue Oct 30 14:59:17 2001 From: chris at mainecoon.com (Chris Kennedy) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:11 2005 Subject: [OT] New toy... In-Reply-To: <7A9BACCEF0171D4FB77019F5104CDD37225850@jeffserver.tegjeff.com> Message-ID: Douglas Quebbeman wrote: [snip] > TU - tits up, or Tango Ultra in (I think) pilot talk... Tango Uniform :-) Also, FIGMO -- F*ck it, I've got my orders. -- Chris Kennedy chris@mainecoon.com http://www.mainecoon.com PGP fingerprint: 4E99 10B6 7253 B048 6685 6CBC 55E1 20A3 108D AB97 From gwynp at artware.qc.ca Tue Oct 30 14:03:40 2001 From: gwynp at artware.qc.ca (gwynp@artware.qc.ca) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:11 2005 Subject: Acronyms In-Reply-To: <3BDEC50B.334298B7@verizon.net> Message-ID: On 30-Oct-2001 Eric Chomko wrote: > ROFLMAOGSFTH - rolling on floor laughing my ass off getting spliters > from the hardwood 2 letters : K-Y -Philip From gwynp at artware.qc.ca Tue Oct 30 14:06:28 2001 From: gwynp at artware.qc.ca (gwynp@artware.qc.ca) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:11 2005 Subject: Classic Gaming OT and OT / Re: OT: Playstation 2 opinion? In-Reply-To: <2437.703T950T1624611optimus@canit.se> Message-ID: On 30-Oct-2001 Iggy Drougge wrote: > I certainly get games and consoles whenever I can. My main interest in > old computers revolves around games, sound and graphics. A computer with > just an RS-232 connection to the outside world just isn't as > interesting, IMO. Hunt the Wumpus? Rogue? Zork? -Philip From geneb at deltasoft.com Tue Oct 30 15:16:41 2001 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (Gene Buckle) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:11 2005 Subject: OT: Question for American Subscribers... In-Reply-To: <9011A52E011ED311B4280004AC1BA615014671DF@yalepress3.unipress.yale.edu> Message-ID: On Tue, 30 Oct 2001, David Woyciesjes wrote: > Why would a large computer retailer (CompUSA) stop selling gift > certificates at this time of year? Might CompUSA be going titsup.com? > one.can.only.hope.net g. From donm at cts.com Tue Oct 30 15:14:41 2001 From: donm at cts.com (Don Maslin) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:11 2005 Subject: OT: Question for American Subscribers... In-Reply-To: <9011A52E011ED311B4280004AC1BA615014671DF@yalepress3.unipress.yale.edu> Message-ID: On Tue, 30 Oct 2001, David Woyciesjes wrote: > Why would a large computer retailer (CompUSA) stop selling gift > certificates at this time of year? Might CompUSA be going titsup.com? Perhaps it was the recent court decision that found that gift certificates are good until used and may be redeemed for cash. - don > --- David A Woyciesjes > --- C & IS Support Specialist > --- Yale University Press > --- mailto:david.woyciesjes@yale.edu > --- (203) 432-0953 > --- ICQ # - 905818 > From donm at cts.com Tue Oct 30 15:18:50 2001 From: donm at cts.com (Don Maslin) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:11 2005 Subject: hard-sector 5 1/4 disk In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Mon, 29 Oct 2001, Don Maslin wrote: > > > On Mon, 29 Oct 2001, ajp166 wrote: > > > The shot list is... > > > > Northstar Horizon > > Heath H89 > > Northstart Advantage > > > > Likely a dozen others as awell. > > > > Allison > > Don't overlook Vector Graphics. Just recalled that I also have some Exidy Sorcerer hard-sector disks. > - don > > -----Original Message----- > > From: Jim Donoghue > > To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org > > Date: Monday, October 29, 2001 10:17 PM > > Subject: hard-sector 5 1/4 disk > > > > > > >Anybody ever see anything that uses hard sector 5 1/4 disks? I've only > > ever > > >seen one in my lifetime - just curious if they were ever used anywhere > > else > > >(the one I saw was used to load microcode into a mainframe CPU) > > > > > > > > > From mhstein at usa.net Tue Oct 30 15:27:23 2001 From: mhstein at usa.net (M H Stein) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:11 2005 Subject: Long lines Message-ID: <01C1615F.C24D0760@mse-d03> It's just been pointed out to me (thank you for your diplomacy, whoever you are) that my posts are a little hard to read for some people since I haven't been inserting CRs. Mea culpa, sorry, my forehead's getting quite a flat spot these days from all the slapping. I should have thought about and noticed that myself, especially on this list; I can just imagine all those ASR33s pounding away in the last column... (But at least I haven't been sending HTML ) mike From vze2wsvr at verizon.net Tue Oct 30 15:53:30 2001 From: vze2wsvr at verizon.net (Eric Chomko) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:11 2005 Subject: Price guide for vintage computers References: <11790.703T2150T10215335optimus@canit.se> Message-ID: <3BDF2159.84683298@verizon.net> Iggy Drougge wrote: > Eric Chomko skrev: > > >Iggy Drougge wrote: > > [...] > > >> > >> Markets? No, I'm probably not fond of them, is there any reason to like > >> them? > > >No, other that they are real, and dealing in reality is better than not > >dealing in reality. :) > > Is that any reason to like them? > Liking or disliking reality changes little. > > >> They're ultimately driven by egoism. And I particularly don't wish my hobby > >> to become market-oriented. I've done fine without any classic computer > >> market so far. > > >You act like you have a choice. Sorry, yes you do. You can boycott it, but > >not much else. > > What do you call a self-fulfilling prophecy in English? > I give up? What do you call a self-fulfilling prophecy in English? > > >> I don't really see why you should get more for your house than you paid for > >> it when you bought it. Besides, I hope you don't collect houses for a > >> hobby. > > >You really DON'T get the time/value of money, do you? If a bank loans someone > >money for a period of time, why do it if not for a larger return over time? > > Well, that's the raison d'?tre of a bank. But not of computer collecting. I agree, but why can't collecting be for both investment and fun (learning and such)? You seem to think I'm 'wrong' to visualize my collection in terms of an investment. > > > >If you > > >think that you can get and should get an interest-free loan, then you don't > >have any idea about basic economics. Money MUST increase over time or else no > >one would ever invest, ever. > > Why not? Investing in a house gives you roof over the head. That's a fine > investment IMO. > Agreed, but I like a little thing called equity as well, especially "sweat equity." Certianly you appreciate hard work, and believe that one deserves rewards for that hard work? > > >> >> Why would I want that? It's a collection of old computers, not an > >> >> investment. > >> > >> >Why can't it be both? And what makes you think that collecting INHERENTLY > >> >isn't an investment? I mean given the nature of collecting things and > >> >others having the same interest, whether you like it or not, it will > >> >BECOME a competitive market. > >> > >> Some of us would like our hobbies not to be driven by greed. I want to be > >> able > > >Greed or competition? > > Hopefully neither. =) > Again, you assume that you are the only collector of classic or old computers. Unrealistic. > > >> to play with my old Sinclair without ever thinking of how much food, rent > >> or current computer equipment I might get if I sold it. I'd prefer if it > >> remained neutral in its value, or valued only be me and my fellow > >> collector. > > >Fine, then do it. > > But in a market-driven collecting craze, I might not be able to do so. At > least not if I'm going to play with anything but the C64 or the Spectrum. This reminds me of a story about baseball cards. Rookie cards (players' first year) tend to be worth more than other cards from the same player. Anyway, a guy was ticked off that his favorite player's rookie card cost so much. The card was $1200 and all the players other cards were just a few dollars or less. The problem was that this player shared his rookie card with none other than Nolan Ryan, who happens to probably be the best pitcher of his era. The reality of the shared card made a Jerry Koosman (other player) rookie card astronomical in price. Is that fair to someone wanting to collect a Jerry Koosman rookie card? Probably not, but what can be done about it? Really? > > > >> Besides, I don't like collectors or collecting markets. I think > >> filatelists, toy collectors, comic book nerds, guitar collectors and the > >> rest are rather sad. They collect for the sake of collecting, and there are > >> mags and price guides and newsgroups, all relating to what is essentially > >> old junk collected by a small community of nerds, some of which happen to > >> have deeper pockets than others and little appreciation of the actual value > >> of the pieces of paper or dolls which they're collecting. It's a > >> superficial form of collecting which thankfully doesn't seem to have > >> penetrated the classiccmp community yet. > > >But what makes you think it won't? You may not like it but really can't do > >much, other than boycott it (or deal with it) about it. > > Your point being? Can't we discuss whether we like it or not instead of > whether it will happen? If it is inevitable, it certainly doesn't need any > evangelists (i e you). > Sure we can discuss whether we like it or not, but it makes about as much sense as picking what color pants you want to wear tommorrow. > > >> >> junk to most people, and since there is no real financial value in the > >> >> market even now, why would anyone desire to artifically induce higher > >> >> prices? > >> > >> >I am not talking about artificial prices. That's bunk. I am speaking of > >> >real values. Check the value of the IMSAIs, Altairs and other systems of > >> >that era on eBay over the last year. Several complete, clean and otherwise > >> >nice systems have fetched several thousands of dollars. I'd hardly call > >> >that a flea market. > >> > >> And what purpose would a price guide serve in this case? > > >It reflects actual prices paid. > > I repeat my question. It informs people that want to know what other people paid for certain items on average over a certain time frame. Quite statisical and coldly logical. No hype nor any emotion from the guide in and of itself. > > > >> >> I'm not as greedy as some people. If I got my VAX cheaply, so should > >> >> others. > >> > >> >I won't argue that one way or the other. I have seen Vaxes end up in the > >> >hands of scrap dealers too. Certainly you would hope that the value of a > >> >Vax is more than scrap if for no other reason for it NOT to end up > >> >recycled. I sure as heck would! > >> > >> Guess where I got mine - the scrap yard. =) > > >Good, I'm glad it didn't get recycled. > > So am I. But no price guide in the world would change that. How would a price guide have made it the same or changed it. Its a damn book and incapable of actually buying and selling. There is nothing in a price guide that makes someone buy or sell. I remember seeing a case where a customer in a coin shop insisted that a coin be sold to him at the value that was in the price guide because that is what the guide said that it was worth. The dealer basically told the guy to go to hell and told him what he could to do with his guide. Eventually, the guy was thrown out of the shop and asked not to return. I thought it was harsh but understand the dealer's point of view and that the guide doesn't make any sale or potential sale a legal binding contract. Somehow you seem to see the price guide as some sinister work of evil. > > People (or rather companies, institutions and governing bodies) are throwing > out machines running at several hundred MHz right now. They end up at the > junkyard, or are bought from the scrappers by greedy dealers. They have a very > obvious market value. > Oh, what's that obvious market value? I need one as a project for Linix, nothing more. I have sold used systems over the years and I can tell you with confidence that Pentium systems that are less than 166MHz are unsellable as are 68K-based Macs. > So if they throw out things only a few years old, with actual aftermarket > value, what is going to persuade them not to throw away equipment which is > over ten years old? No price guide in the world will do that, and probably not > information campaign either. > Actually a price guide could and most probably would prevent older systems from ending up in the scrap heap. Also, do you really care if half the 286 systems end up in a scrap heap or not? > > >> >> Since there is a computer collecting community, what is there to worry > >> >> about? > >> > >> >Who is worried? > >> > >> You're worried about the lack of a market, I'm worried about you. > > >But there IS a market. Go to eBay.com and look under 'vintage computers" > >if you don't believe me. > > I know, I've been there, I've even shopped on eBay on occasion. And it's a > market which seems quite healthy without any price guides. The price guide is simply a compilation of what has sold on eBay and the like, for how much, and regarding what system. Is THAT so sinister? > > > >> >> If you've paid a nice price, there's no reason why you shouldn't get > >> >> your "investment" back when someone else on this list buys it off you, > >> >> is there? > >> > >> >I never claimed otherwise. > >> > >> But I say any profit is superfluous. > > >You can say anything you want about your systems and your plans for them. > > ?? > I don't disagree that you should be able to get your "investment" back when > you sell off your old computers, if they were bought old, and you didn't pay > an exaggerated price, but why should you get anything above the price you > paid? Because you're worth it? Because that is where supply and demand meet. On the same token you may actually get less. What then? Tell the buyer that since you paid X for the system you expect X when you sell? Doesn't always work out that way. > > > >> >> Price guides and market thinking will just make people greedy, thinking > >> >> that they didn't get the best possible deal (is that so bloody > >> >> important?) and > >> > >> >The true aim of a price guide is not to allow someone to dictate prices. A > >> >price guide should literally reflect actually paid prices for items based > >> >upon averages and some agree-upon conditional standard. Speaking of > >> >"condition'; based upon my experience with collecting coins, sports cards > >> >and dabbling with stamps and books, > >> >'condition' > >> >cannot be overemphasized. > >> > >> But price guides have to be updated, and then they will reflect higher > >> prices, > > >Not necessarily. A true price guide shows dips too. > > That certainly doesn't seem like an interesting price guide. After all people, > want to get a profit on their investments. But the aim of the price guide is not to delude by reflecting what people want, necessarily. The aim of the guide should show what people have paid for items recently on average. They should reflect the ups with the downs, just like the stock market. > > > >> giving people yet higher expectations. Price guides are a driving force in > >> a collecting business. With price guides come dealers who will ask what's > >> in the price guide, or more, and they will get to the nice things before we > >> do, and we'll be at their mercy. > > >What proof of that do you have? > > Only experience. > > >> >> establish a market for dealers who will get to the surplus shops, > >> >> fleamarkets, giveaways and junkyards before us. I have no financial > >> >> stake in my collection, it's for fun, not investment. > >> > >> >Someone that inherits it one day will be very pleased that you kept it in > >> >nice condition. There is an old saying about collectibles, "you can't take > >> >it with you." > >> > >> Since I have no financial stake in my collection, I'd rather it be > >> inherited by someone of the same spirit. They'll certainly appreciate the > >> condition, but not because of its financial value. > > >Put it in writing when you sell or get rid of your systems. > > ?? > \ Stipulate that any benficiary of your systems are to not sell them to just anyone, etc. > >> >> There are a lot of options in case you're looking for investments, and > >> >> they require neither floor space nor electricity. > >> > >> >But you act like you can stop it! The turnover rate of computer systems > >> >and the number of old ones lying around coupled with demand for them, will > >> >INHERENTLY create this market. What I am saying is, "ready or not here its > >> >is!' Don't shoot the messenger! > >> > >> You're not the messenger, you're the agitator. > > >I'm telling you what I believe will happen based upon experience in dealing > >with other collectibles markets. Whether you like it or not doesn't change my > >prediction. I could be wrong, but I doubt if I am. > > I'm telling you it will happen, too, especially when there is a price guide. > And I don't like it one bit. For some reason, you seem to like it. Why? Are > you a masochist? > It is not about like or dislike per se as that really doesn't change things. But since you have this need to share your feelings on the matter, I'll add mine as well. In some repsects I like a price guide and in others I don't. Some people will feel that they the price guide is the gospel truth others will claim it's all bunk. But I would rather have information rather than void. If the information is no better than nothing, then surely a commitment to improvement and regular updates are in order. In short, as much as you hate the idea, I neither like it nor hate it anywhere near where you stand in the dislike category. > > >> >As stated I am a collector of other things. I have a pretty nice baeball > >> >card and football > >> >(American) card and even basketball card collections. Been at it for > >> >years. I do a ltlle selling on the side to assist with bigger buys. I also > >> >have been collecting US and world coins for most of my adult life. I have > >> >attend shows and assisted on many a bourse floors over the past 18 years. > >> > >> And I've been collecting toys in a previous life, and have a big collection > >> of comics. I witnessed the commercialisation of the toy business, and I've > >> seen comic book "collectors", the kind who keep their books in anti-acid > >> plastic bags. Sad gits are what they are, they should read them, not lock > >> them up in plastic. > > >Won't argue with you about collectors, but I'm sure at least one person you > >know finds your computer collection "strange." > > So let them. Sad gits are what they are. =) > > >> It's a philosophical difference between us. I don't like the collecting > >> business, since it gets in the way of the hobby itself. > > >Fine, I neither like it nor dislike it, I simply see it for what it is. I'll > >meet the market where it is and for what it is. The 'reality' thing, > >remember? > > Oh, but you seem hell-bent on meeting the market whether it exists or not, and > you seem quite enthusiastic about it. I am less enthusiastic about it than you are about being negaitve about it, that is for sure. In purely absolute emotional terms, you have be beat by far. > > > >> It's a bit like the collectable card games. Suddenly, the rich kid is > >> always the winner. Not because of craftiness at putting together a deck, > >> but because he can go to a card shop and buy individual cards with the > >> right characteristics. > > >But not all the time. I still happen to have quite a nice collection of > >things that I managed t get before a rich kid got them. :) > > IOW before the collecting/investment craze. Yes and no. Yes is obvious. But the 'no' part is that when the investors bailed, I bought things I wanted cheaply. When gold and silver went way up in the late 70s and early 80s coins were obscenely high. But after the crash in the early to mid-80s I got back in and got quite a few good deals. > > > >The nice thing about "things" is that even if classic computers goes the way > >of US > >stamps and gets over commeciralized and makes us all sick, there will be > >something > >else. > > Now you're sounding like someone who's just lost his girlfriend. > Don't fret mate, another will come along. Didn't the Rolling Stones have a lyric about that? > > >> >You're better off trying to get Ebay and Yahoo to remove the 'vintage' tag > >> >on their computer hardware category as that has legitimized the market > >> >more than anything else at this point. But good luck succeeding with that! > >> > >> At least that is a really "free" market. Price guides will just cement > >> whatever is deemed as appropriate by the author. > > >Then the author should be challenged and be forced to change to reflect > >accurate prices. > > No, he should be castrated and hung upside down outside Microsoft > headquarters. > You don't have to look at or use the giude. It's a choice. Eric > > -- > En ligne avec Thor 2.6a. > > Php/fi: The syntax does a very good job on combining the drawbacks of C with > the disadvantages of Perl, in general resulting in a completely unreadable > sequence of seemingly random characters. Therefor it became quite popular > among Unix-fossils. > -- README for the HTML preprocessor "hsc" From optimus at canit.se Tue Oct 30 15:55:28 2001 From: optimus at canit.se (Iggy Drougge) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:11 2005 Subject: value of scrap In-Reply-To: <01102908562901.26118@pluto.joules.org> Message-ID: <749.703T1400T13755477optimus@canit.se> Peter Joules skrev: >Here in the UK that might change soon. It is about to become illegal to send > electronic waste to landfill so it _must_ be recycled. As soon as one has >no choice but to send stuff to scrap merchants, they then tend to start >charging for taking it away instead of paying for it. That kind of law was already passed here this year. The responsibility for recycling electronics is put on the manufacturers. That's when it became easier to find old computers at the junkyard. -- En ligne avec Thor 2.6a. IRAQ, 10984 GHz, V Getting TV from Iraq at all is kinda cool - you can get propaganda in English at 1900 BST, and see the guy with the moustache almost any time. When they show anime it's even cooler... Geoff Cowie From UberTechnoid at home.com Tue Oct 30 16:17:27 2001 From: UberTechnoid at home.com (UberTechnoid@home.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:11 2005 Subject: hard-sector 5 1/4 disk In-Reply-To: <10110302019.ZM26540@mindy.dunnington.u-net.com> Message-ID: <20011030222403.RZGN24867.femail9.sdc1.sfba.home.com@BENCHBOX> I recall the Amiga having a high-density external disk addon that ran at 1/2 speed so Commodore wouldn't have to include a faster fdd controller chip. The bad news. The good news is that it worked on all Amiga machines right out of the box. The ATR8000 and ATR8500 CP/M boxes DO for Certain use the index hole to time the drive's rotation to determine if it is an 8" or a 5.25" mech running. I've used a couple of 3.5" high-density drives on them and gotten up to 1.35mb in CP/M and 1mb in Spartados. The trick is getting a 3.5" mech that has a big ol' block of jumpers on it. You can fiddle with the jumpers and make the drive emulate a 77track 8" mech. As for the index hole, this wasn't such a bad thing unless you wanted to use 'flippy' disks in an ATR. Atari drives don't use the hole at all so flipping the disk works fine. With the ATR as a controller though you have to punch another index hole in the disk or use a standard mech with dual sets of index hole sensor such as those 'flippy' drives made by Pertec and Aerocomp -never seen em', I just know they made them. And then there are these freaky 3" disks I have for an Amstrad I once owned..... Regards, Jeff In <10110302019.ZM26540@mindy.dunnington.u-net.com>, on 10/30/01 at 08:19 PM, pete@dunnington.u-net.com (Pete Turnbull) said: >On Oct 30, 10:32, Fred Cisin (XenoSoft) wrote: >> 3.5" 1.4M (I have NEVER seen a 1.44M format!) are also at 300RPM >However, many original 3.5" (SSDD not HD) ran at 600rpm, but with 2x the >normal data rate (so the disks could also be used in 300rpm drives at >normal data rates). -- ----------------------------------------------------------- Jeffrey S. Worley Asheville, NC USA 828-6984887 UberTechnoid@Home.com ----------------------------------------------------------- From optimus at canit.se Tue Oct 30 16:21:09 2001 From: optimus at canit.se (Iggy Drougge) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:11 2005 Subject: Classic Gaming OT and OT / Re: OT: Playstation 2 opinion? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <501.703T450T14014559optimus@canit.se> gwynp skrev: >On 30-Oct-2001 Iggy Drougge wrote: >> I certainly get games and consoles whenever I can. My main interest in >> old computers revolves around games, sound and graphics. A computer with >> just an RS-232 connection to the outside world just isn't as >> interesting, IMO. >Hunt the Wumpus? Rogue? Zork? OLMasken! Fire! Bilspel! -- En ligne avec Thor 2.6a. G? med i SUGA, Swedish Usergroup of Amiga! WWW: http://swedish.usergroup.amiga.tm/ BBS: 08-6582572, telnet://sua.ath.cx:42512 From vance at ikickass.org Tue Oct 30 16:45:40 2001 From: vance at ikickass.org (One Without Reason) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:12 2005 Subject: MIPS/VMS Message-ID: I was told at one time that work had begun on MIPS/VMS just before DEC's abandonment of the DECstation line in favor of Alpha. Does anyone (maybe a current Compaq employee) know where in some dark corner the sources might be found? Peace... Sridhar From cisin at xenosoft.com Tue Oct 30 16:53:14 2001 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin (XenoSoft)) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:12 2005 Subject: hard-sector 5 1/4 disk In-Reply-To: <20011030222403.RZGN24867.femail9.sdc1.sfba.home.com@BENCHBOX> Message-ID: On Tue, 30 Oct 2001 UberTechnoid@home.com wrote: > I recall the Amiga having a high-density external disk addon that ran at > 1/2 speed so Commodore wouldn't have to include a faster fdd controller > chip. The bad news. The good news is that it worked on all Amiga > machines right out of the box. How was reliability for it? The Weltec half speed 1.2M 5.25" did NOT work well. > The ATR8000 and ATR8500 CP/M boxes DO for Certain use the index hole to > time the drive's rotation to determine if it is an 8" or a 5.25" mech > running. I've used a couple of 3.5" high-density drives on them and > gotten up to 1.35mb in CP/M and 1mb in Spartados. The trick is getting a > 3.5" mech that has a big ol' block of jumpers on it. You can fiddle with > the jumpers and make the drive emulate a 77track 8" mech. The REAL easy (just a weird cable) is to put a 5.25" 1.2M in place of an 8". Same speed, same data transfer rates, etc. > As for the index hole, this wasn't such a bad thing unless you wanted to > use 'flippy' disks in an ATR. Atari drives don't use the hole at all so > flipping the disk works fine. With the ATR as a controller though you > have to punch another index hole in the disk or use a standard mech with > dual sets of index hole sensor such as those 'flippy' drives made by > Pertec and Aerocomp -never seen em', I just know they made them. Ah, yes. I manufactured and sold a jig for marking and punching. The first product that I had that ever got any free ink (in Dr. Dobbs) > And then there are these freaky 3" disks I have for an Amstrad I once > owned..... Nice, aren't they? But, if you have a DS drive, then it won't let you flip the disks (as you could with a SS drive; thus resulting in an inability to read second sides using a DS drive. 3.25" was another fun one. Pushed by Dysan, it was made like a "normal" floppy. -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin@xenosoft.com From edick at idcomm.com Tue Oct 30 17:00:00 2001 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:12 2005 Subject: Apple II SCSI card References: Message-ID: <000701c16196$9ad93780$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> Does anyone know, from actual experience, whether this card can support the XEBEC "Sider" drive? I'm persuaded that the XEBEC Sider, which has an integrated controller right on the drive, not a bridge in the box with an MFM or RLL drive, as many such drives have, is a SASI device, rather than a SCSI. If that's the case, the operating mode must be differently tailored than for standard SCSI. I'm persuaded, however, that the NCR5380 that's on this card is capable of such things, since that same chip was used in the AMPRO Little Boards that supported SCSI as well as SASI devices. So, does anyone know, from burning his fingers, or the like? thanx, Dick ----- Original Message ----- From: "Paul R. Santa-Maria" To: Cc: Sent: Tuesday, October 30, 2001 12:27 PM Subject: Apple II SCSI card > Rich Beaudry: > > You have an Apple II Rev C SCSI card, not the High Speed card. > > Below is a comp.sys.apple2 post with more details about the card, > including some limitations. > > I have one in my IIgs. I also have the original manual and software, but > the Chinook SCSI Utilities (CSU) software is better (see below). I can > provide you with copies of this stuff. I can point you to online sources > of disk images if you can handle them. > > For others with Rev A or Rev B versions, I can make Rev C EPROMs. > > Paul R. Santa-Maria > Monroe, Michigan USA > > > > From: David Empson (dempson@actrix.gen.nz) > Subject: Re: Apple II SCSI Card rev C - Latest Revision? > Newsgroups: comp.sys.apple2 > Date: 1998/09/11 > > Brian wrote: > > > I just acquired an 1996 Apple II SCSI Card revision C, for my ROM 1 > > IIgs. > > I think you'll find that date was 1986, not 96. :-) > > > Is "C" the last revision of this card? > > There is only one version of the physical card. "Revision C" refers to > the firmware version. The ROM should be labelled "341-0437-A" if it is > revision C. > > Revision C is the last release of the firwmare for this card. > > > Are there any problems I should be aware of? > > Many. Where should I start? > > 1. The card is not terminated. > > If you are connecting more than one device, you must place a > pass-through terminator between the card and the first device (or > internal termination in the first device), as well as after the last > device on the chain. > > If you are connecting a single device, it should have internal > termination or a piggy-back terminator. > > 2. The card does not supply termination power. > > There is a single diode modification that can rectify this. Another > option (my preference) is to make sure that at least one of the > connected devices is able to supply termination power. > > 3. The firmware is limited to seven logical partitions. > > These partitions may be spread over as many as 7 SCSI devices connected > to the card. Under ProDOS-8, this gives a practical limit of 224 MB > accessible over all volumes. Note that you need to be running ProDOS-8 > 2.0.1 or later to be able to access more than 4 partitions, and this > requires at least an enhanced IIe. Under earlier ProDOS versions, you > can only access 3 or 4 partitions if the card is in slot 5. > > The seven partition limit does not apply under GS/OS, which uses its own > drivers. > > 4. The firmware doesn't fully support removable hard drives, including > devices like ZIP drives. > > The problem is that if you switch disks, the firwmare does not update > its saved copy of the partition table. This can easily result in > corruption of the new disk if it is not partitioned EXACTLY the same as > the previous one (right down to the starting block number and number of > blocks in each partition). > > This problem doesn't affect GS/OS, and you can work around it under > ProDOS-8 by rebooting if you need to change disks. > > Note that if you boot via GS/OS and then get into ProDOS-8, quitting to > GS/OS and relaunching ProDOS-8 might not be sufficient to reinitialize > the firmware (I haven't investigated this). > > 5. The firwmare only supports SCSI hard disks and CD-ROM drives. CD > Audio operations are only supported with Apple's original CDSC, CDSC+ > and CD-150. > > This isn't likely to be a major issue. > > 6. The card is slow. > > The Apple High-Speed (DMA) SCSI card is a lot faster (as long as DMA can > be used), and the RamFast is even better. > > 7. The partitioning software that comes with it is pretty limited. > > If you didn't get the disk, this isn't an issue. A much nicer 8-bit > alternative is Chinook SCSI Utilities, which is now freeware. (I don't > know of a source for it off-hand.) > > You can also use Advanced Disk Utility under GS/OS. > > -- > David Empson > dempson@actrix.gen.nz > Snail mail: P.O. Box 27-103, Wellington, New Zealand > > > From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Oct 30 16:44:08 2001 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:12 2005 Subject: Price guide for vintage computers In-Reply-To: <3BDE3A1F.E1DE6DC@mail.verizon.net> from "Eric Chomko" at Oct 30, 1 00:26:55 am Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 2910 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20011030/7cda521d/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Oct 30 16:19:58 2001 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:12 2005 Subject: Classic Gaming OT and OT / Re: OT: Playstation 2 opinion? In-Reply-To: <3BDE117A.F0B68BA7@verizon.net> from "Ian Koller" at Oct 29, 1 09:33:30 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 449 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20011030/7b54be2e/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Oct 30 16:20:56 2001 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:12 2005 Subject: hard-sector 5 1/4 disk In-Reply-To: <01102921415400.02413@ws1> from "Jim Donoghue" at Oct 29, 1 09:41:54 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 393 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20011030/bb2fc83b/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Oct 30 16:26:12 2001 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:12 2005 Subject: value of classic DEC machines? In-Reply-To: <3BDE1DDC.67E56C37@bellsouth.net> from "Doug Carman" at Oct 29, 1 10:26:20 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 967 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20011030/64fe168d/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Oct 30 17:06:56 2001 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:12 2005 Subject: hard-sector 5 1/4 disk In-Reply-To: <10110302019.ZM26540@mindy.dunnington.u-net.com> from "Pete Turnbull" at Oct 30, 1 08:19:35 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 750 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20011030/6bda527b/attachment.ksh From jhellige at earthlink.net Tue Oct 30 17:27:09 2001 From: jhellige at earthlink.net (Jeff Hellige) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:12 2005 Subject: hard-sector 5 1/4 disk In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: >On Tue, 30 Oct 2001 UberTechnoid@home.com wrote: >> I recall the Amiga having a high-density external disk addon that ran at >> 1/2 speed so Commodore wouldn't have to include a faster fdd controller >> chip. The bad news. The good news is that it worked on all Amiga >> machines right out of the box. > >How was reliability for it? The Weltec half speed 1.2M 5.25" did NOT work >well. Actually all Amiga HD drives, internal or external, work in this fashion. They tend to be somewhat slow but I've never had any more reliability problems with thier HD drives than with the DD drives. Not too many of the HD drives around though. Jeff -- Home of the TRS-80 Model 2000 FAQ File http://www.cchaven.com http://www.geocities.com/siliconvalley/lakes/6757 From jhellige at earthlink.net Tue Oct 30 17:31:53 2001 From: jhellige at earthlink.net (Jeff Hellige) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:12 2005 Subject: Classic Gaming OT and OT / Re: OT: Playstation 2 opinion? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: > > Iggy Drougge wrote: >> >> > A computer with just an RS-232 connection to the outside world >> > just isn't as interesting, IMO. >> >> Ahh, but put a fast modem on that RS232, and with the internet, >> it's a whole ( brave ) new world. > >I think Iggy was talking about a computer without its own keyboard and >video display, just a serial port which you connect a (dumb) terminal to. >Like many of the minicomputers I have around here. Plenty of interesting games could still be run from such a configuration though, whether it be one of the many versions of 'Star Trek' or 'Lunar Lander'. Of course, one generally does more with a DPS-6 or other mini than play 'Adventure'! Jeff -- Home of the TRS-80 Model 2000 FAQ File http://www.cchaven.com http://www.geocities.com/siliconvalley/lakes/6757 From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Tue Oct 30 16:11:35 2001 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (Ben Franchuk) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:12 2005 Subject: Classic Gaming OT and OT / Re: OT: Playstation 2 opinion? References: Message-ID: <3BDF2597.1E86BA16@jetnet.ab.ca> Tony Duell wrote: > I think Iggy was talking about a computer without its own keyboard and > video display, just a serial port which you connect a (dumb) terminal to. > Like many of the minicomputers I have around here. Hey I could use a dumb terminal too, I am building a new computer that uses good old serial I/O. 2400 baud at the moment. Some how using a PC as a terminal does not have the micro-computer feel. Ben. -- Standard Disclaimer : 97% speculation 2% bad grammar 1% facts. "Pre-historic Cpu's" http://www.jetnet.ab.ca/users/bfranchuk Now with schematics. From cmcmanis at mcmanis.com Tue Oct 30 18:08:24 2001 From: cmcmanis at mcmanis.com (Chuck McManis) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:12 2005 Subject: Price guide for vintage computers In-Reply-To: References: <3BDE3A1F.E1DE6DC@mail.verizon.net> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20011030160251.027b6110@mcmanis.com> At 02:44 PM 10/30/01, Tony responded to: > > But Commodore 64s AREN'T worth $200 and no one is going to get that price with: >I seriously suspect (based on what I've seen in other areas) that if a >price guide was pnblished saying 'C64s are worth $200' then you'd see an >awful lot priced close to that figure. You'd find the odd one priced at a >more reasonable amount (it belongs to somebody who's not read the price >guide), I guess. But not too many. It doesn't work that way. Its like saying some political body could repeal the law of averages. If the market is fair (meaning that anyone can enter and anyone can buy or sell at whatever price they choose) then the price of Commodore 64s (or any commodity for that matter) will be dictated entirely by supply and demand. Economists call it the "invisible hand" but basically it means that when you don't sell your C64 for $200 you will knock a few bucks off the price and continue doing that until it sells or it is worth more to you than your willing to sell it for (note that this is identical to selling it to yourself so effectively you have sold it) Having a price guide does not affect market prices. If it brings in more buyers (thus increasing demand) then it can raise prices, if it brings in more sellers (thus increasing supply) then it can lower prices. But the effect on prices is only tangential to the overall market. --Chuck From dpeschel at eskimo.com Tue Oct 30 18:24:48 2001 From: dpeschel at eskimo.com (Derek Peschel) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:12 2005 Subject: Classic Gaming OT and OT / Re: OT: Playstation 2 opinion? In-Reply-To: <501.703T450T14014559optimus@canit.se>; from optimus@canit.se on Tue, Oct 30, 2001 at 11:21:09PM +0100 References: <501.703T450T14014559optimus@canit.se> Message-ID: <20011030162448.B6326@eskimo.eskimo.com> On Tue, Oct 30, 2001 at 11:21:09PM +0100, Iggy Drougge wrote: > gwynp skrev: > > >On 30-Oct-2001 Iggy Drougge wrote: > >> I certainly get games and consoles whenever I can. My main interest in > >> old computers revolves around games, sound and graphics. A computer with > >> just an RS-232 connection to the outside world just isn't as > >> interesting, IMO. > > >Hunt the Wumpus? Rogue? Zork? > > OLMasken! Fire! Bilspel! I need some more explanation here... From dittman at dittman.net Tue Oct 30 18:47:18 2001 From: dittman at dittman.net (Eric Dittman) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:12 2005 Subject: MIPS/VMS In-Reply-To: from "One Without Reason" at Oct 30, 2001 05:45:40 PM Message-ID: <200110310047.f9V0lIY24925@narnia.int.dittman.net> > I was told at one time that work had begun on MIPS/VMS just before DEC's > abandonment of the DECstation line in favor of Alpha. Does anyone (maybe > a current Compaq employee) know where in some dark corner the sources > might be found? The port didn't get very far from what I've heard, just a couple of system services over the Mach kernel as a proof-of-concept. I've also heard there isn't anything left of the source. -- Eric Dittman dittman@dittman.net Check out the DEC Enthusiasts Club at http://www.dittman.net/ From geoffr at zipcon.net Tue Oct 30 18:59:28 2001 From: geoffr at zipcon.net (Geoff Reed) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:12 2005 Subject: hard-sector 5 1/4 disk In-Reply-To: References: <01102921415400.02413@ws1> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20011030165838.0317d450@mail.zipcon.net> At 10:23 AM 10/30/01 -0800, you wrote: >1) NO, APPLE ][ IS NOT HARD SECTORED! >Apple is COMPLETELY soft-sectored. While MOST machines that were >soft-sectored started the track with the index pulse, Apple and Commodore >ignored even the index pulse. Therefore, they would work with >soft-sectored diskettes, hard-sectored diskettes, upside down diskettes >with a write enable notch punched, etc. >2) NO, it has nothing to do with using a 6502. It's been a LONG time since i've used an apple II, I was just going by a friend that always used hard-sector disks on his II. From edick at idcomm.com Tue Oct 30 19:59:53 2001 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:12 2005 Subject: hard-sector 5 1/4 disk References: <01102921415400.02413@ws1> <5.1.0.14.2.20011030165838.0317d450@mail.zipcon.net> Message-ID: <003401c161af$bbcc8b40$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> It's conceivable that the software that the Apple][ used didn't look for an index pulse until, nominally, the "right" time, at whic point it waited for it, then proceeded, in which case the extra holes in the index track (not a magnetic track) would have no impact. The format was, nevertheless, soft-sectored, thereby allowing a smooth transition from 13 sectors to 16 sectors, without a major redesign. Dick ----- Original Message ----- From: "Geoff Reed" To: Sent: Tuesday, October 30, 2001 5:59 PM Subject: Re: hard-sector 5 1/4 disk > At 10:23 AM 10/30/01 -0800, you wrote: > >1) NO, APPLE ][ IS NOT HARD SECTORED! > >Apple is COMPLETELY soft-sectored. While MOST machines that were > >soft-sectored started the track with the index pulse, Apple and Commodore > >ignored even the index pulse. Therefore, they would work with > >soft-sectored diskettes, hard-sectored diskettes, upside down diskettes > >with a write enable notch punched, etc. > >2) NO, it has nothing to do with using a 6502. > > It's been a LONG time since i've used an apple II, I was just going by a > friend that always used hard-sector disks on his II. > > From cisin at xenosoft.com Tue Oct 30 20:16:25 2001 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin (XenoSoft)) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:12 2005 Subject: hard-sector 5 1/4 disk In-Reply-To: <003401c161af$bbcc8b40$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> Message-ID: On Tue, 30 Oct 2001, Richard Erlacher wrote: > It's conceivable that the software that the Apple][ used didn't look for an > index pulse until, nominally, the "right" time, at whic point it waited for it, > then proceeded, in which case the extra holes in the index track (not a magnetic > track) would have no impact. No, it is not conceivable, since there is no light and photocell to EVER EVER see the index pulse. > The format was, nevertheless, soft-sectored, thereby allowing a smooth > transition from 13 sectors to 16 sectors, without a major redesign. Except that they did too much in firmware, . . . From mhstein at usa.net Tue Oct 30 19:33:25 2001 From: mhstein at usa.net (M H Stein) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:12 2005 Subject: Almost on topic - Cassette I/O Message-ID: <01C16188.41E110C0@mse-d03> -------Original Message------------ Date: Mon, 29 Oct 2001 07:46:14 -0700 From: Ben Franchuk Subject: Re: Almost on topic - Cassette I/O By chance you would not have a terminal too? Ben. *-------------------------------------------------------------------------* By chance, it just happens that I do... Wyse, Lear Siegler, Falco or Cromemco, what's your pleasure? Also a TransTerm & some other oddball stuff. The L-S ADM11 would be my recommendation. As to the cassette drive, I wasn't entirely serious in suggesting it; it's a very non-standard Burroughs interface and I think it would be more work interfacing that than your whole computer project including the cassette interface. But if you're looking for a *real* challenge.. The PPT stuff also uses proprietary parallel interfaces, Burroughs and SCM (CDC?), but that would probably be a lot easier to do. Looks like the AC-30 may be spoken for. Did you get enough info on interfacing the cassette, or want me to scan something for ya? If you could really use any of this, contact me off list. mike -------Original Message------------ Date: Mon, 29 Oct 2001 07:46:14 -0700 From: Ben Franchuk Subject: Re: Almost on topic - Cassette I/O By chance you would not have a terminal too? Ben. From mhstein at usa.net Tue Oct 30 19:56:59 2001 From: mhstein at usa.net (M H Stein) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:12 2005 Subject: hard-sector 5 1/4 disk Message-ID: <01C16188.4594A2E0@mse-d03> -------------Original Message-------------------- Date: Mon, 29 Oct 2001 21:41:54 -0500 From: Jim Donoghue Subject: hard-sector 5 1/4 disk Anybody ever see anything that uses hard sector 5 1/4 disks? I've only ever seen one in my lifetime - just curious if they were ever used anywhere else (the one I saw was used to load microcode into a mainframe CPU) *--- Commodore, for one, on their older low density drives. m -------------Original Message #2-------------------- Date: Mon, 29 Oct 2001 22:27:59 -0500 From: "Chandra Bajpai" Subject: RE: hard-sector 5 1/4 disk I've got a Northstar Advantage that uses them...anyone know where to get hard sector disks these days? - -Chandra *--- Might still have some; I'll look m From mhstein at usa.net Tue Oct 30 20:16:59 2001 From: mhstein at usa.net (M H Stein) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:12 2005 Subject: Price guide for vintage computers Message-ID: <01C16188.49376C20@mse-d03> Since I haven't seen it mentioned here and in order to continue this fascinating thread with erudite arguments over their validity, I notice that UC Davis has suggested values for the items in their collection: http://wwwcsif.cs.ucdavis.edu/~csclub/museum/contents.html From cisin at xenosoft.com Tue Oct 30 20:37:45 2001 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin (XenoSoft)) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:12 2005 Subject: hard-sector 5 1/4 disk In-Reply-To: <01C16188.4594A2E0@mse-d03> Message-ID: > Commodore, for one, on their older low density drives. Commodore, like Apple, was COMPLETELY soft-sector - it ignored the index pulse COMPLETELY, and therefore would work with hard-sector, soft-sector, upside down (with write enable notch), ... From edick at idcomm.com Tue Oct 30 21:18:14 2001 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:12 2005 Subject: hard-sector 5 1/4 disk References: Message-ID: <000f01c161ba$ad656800$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> you said " ... > > No, it is not conceivable, since there is no light and photocell to EVER > EVER see the index pulse. > ..." I have to disagree, actually, because the Apple diskettes all seem to have the holes, not that it matters. While the drive may not have the means to "see" them, since it's about ignoring them, the inability to see them makes them easier to ignore, which, in turn, explains why someone might happily use hard sectored diskettes in an Apple][. That was the point about which there seems to have been some confusion. and " ... Except that they did too much in firmware, . . . ..." Which, admittedly, I don't understand, since the PROM they used was rather small. (...that's where the firmware lives, doncha know...) Most of the work was in the software, actually, since it had to do what the disk format required, and figure out along the way which one it was. I've never liked Apple-disk-related problems, since the Apple system was incredibly fragile and highly unreliable. The first Apple client I had who had been using an Apple][+ in his business summarily took his ][+, drives, and monitor, the whole shebang, out to his dumpster the day I moved his database to a CP/M system with a conventional FDC and a conventional pair of 8" DSDD drives. I'd say he was in hog heaven. His business picked up (though I don't know that the switch had anything to do with that) and his monthly expenditure for MAALOX, Whiskey, and prune juice was substantially reduced. Moreover, he got to see a lot more of his wife and kids. Until a few weeks back when I got into retrieving old 6502 source files, I had forgotten what a piece of crap that disk subsystem was. No wondern so many folks switched to 8" drives. I surely wish I could find an old SVA controller ... It's a real wonder microcomputers caught on as well as they did, given the standard set by the Apple ][. The work WOZ did to create the disk subsystem was really ingenious, but still orders of magnitude less reliable than what was offered on more conventional systems. Dick ----- Original Message ----- From: "Fred Cisin (XenoSoft)" To: Sent: Tuesday, October 30, 2001 7:16 PM Subject: Re: hard-sector 5 1/4 disk > On Tue, 30 Oct 2001, Richard Erlacher wrote: > > It's conceivable that the software that the Apple][ used didn't look for an > > index pulse until, nominally, the "right" time, at which point it waited for it, > > then proceeded, in which case the extra holes in the index track (not a magnetic > > track) would have no impact. > > No, it is not conceivable, since there is no light and photocell to EVER > EVER see the index pulse. > > > The format was, nevertheless, soft-sectored, thereby allowing a smooth > > transition from 13 sectors to 16 sectors, without a major redesign. > > Except that they did too much in firmware, . . . > > From dlw at trailingedge.com Tue Oct 30 21:36:53 2001 From: dlw at trailingedge.com (David Williams) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:12 2005 Subject: Apple II accelerator and Micromodem II questions Message-ID: <3BDF1D75.20662.15AE2B9@localhost> I have what looks like an accelerator board for an Apple II. Looks like a Saturn Systems Inc. Accelerator II. Has a 65c02c and 64 K of ram on board. Anyone have any info on this? Doc? What the jumper settings are (there is an 8 switch jumper block on it) or any software needed to use it? This system also has a Micromodem II in it but no doc or the interface from the board to the phone plug. Anyone have a spare plug or the pin outs to make one? Thanks. ----- "What is, is what?" "When the mind is free of any thought or judgement, then and only then can we know things as they are." David Williams - Computer Packrat dlw@trailingedge.com http://www.trailingedge.com From acme_ent at bellsouth.net Tue Oct 30 22:21:29 2001 From: acme_ent at bellsouth.net (Glen Goodwin) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:12 2005 Subject: [OT] New toy... Message-ID: <20011031042320.GEQD22557.imf16bis.bellsouth.net@thegoodw> > From: Ian Koller > And the compilation of all contributions ... Only two still missing > > AAMAF - ??????????????????????????? As a matter of fact. > SAS - ????????????????????????????????? Sh*t and Shinola??? Glen 0/0 From foo at siconic.com Tue Oct 30 22:23:57 2001 From: foo at siconic.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:12 2005 Subject: hard-sector 5 1/4 disk In-Reply-To: <003401c161af$bbcc8b40$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> Message-ID: On Tue, 30 Oct 2001, Richard Erlacher wrote: > It's conceivable that the software that the Apple][ used didn't look > for an index pulse until, nominally, the "right" time, at whic point > it waited for it, then proceeded, in which case the extra holes in the > index track (not a magnetic track) would have no impact. The Apple Disk ][ simply has no mechanism for even detecting the index hole, so this is not even moot. I'm having trouble parsing your paragraph so you may well be saying the same thing. > The format was, nevertheless, soft-sectored, thereby allowing a smooth > transition from 13 sectors to 16 sectors, without a major redesign. Yes. Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org From john_boffemmyer_iv at boff-net.dhs.org Tue Oct 30 22:29:06 2001 From: john_boffemmyer_iv at boff-net.dhs.org (John Boffemmyer IV) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:12 2005 Subject: VLB SCSI? In-Reply-To: <3BDA2C78.24BA3851@internet1.net> References: <1193.701T1500T75305optimus@canit.se> <001101c15f3f$0c295be0$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20011030232611.00a77040@sokieserv.dhs.org> YES! I own an annoying Compaq Proliant 2000 server, pure EISA with a P90 and a backplane for all the other baords (CPU, RAM expansion, etc.) It has a nice 2 channel Fast-20 Narrow SCSI controller and a nifty Ethernet card that has all the connectors (AUI, TP and 9pin D-sub) so, with a daughtercard, it turns into 16/4 TokenRing. At 10:39 PM 10/26/01, you wrote: >Compaq made plenty of EISA based Pentium servers. > >Chad Fernandez >Michigan, USA > >Richard Erlacher wrote: > > EISA > > was, by the time the Pentiums came out, pretty much a dead duck. ---------------------------------------- Founder, Lead Writer, Tech Analyst and Web Designer Boff-Net Technologies http://boff-net.dhs.org/index.html --------------------------------------- From foo at siconic.com Tue Oct 30 22:35:03 2001 From: foo at siconic.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:12 2005 Subject: hard-sector 5 1/4 disk In-Reply-To: <000f01c161ba$ad656800$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> Message-ID: On Tue, 30 Oct 2001, Richard Erlacher wrote: > I have to disagree, actually, because the Apple diskettes all seem to > have the holes, not that it matters. While the drive may not have the Only because that's how they were manufactured. It would be silly to order disks without the index holes at what most likely would have been a much higher price just because you didn't need it. > Which, admittedly, I don't understand, since the PROM they used was > rather small. (...that's where the firmware lives, doncha know...) > Most of the work was in the software, actually, since it had to do > what the disk format required, and figure out along the way which one > it was. The PROM only had the boot code in it (less than 256 bytes...some of the tightest code EVER!) It was responsible for loading the first sector of the first track into memory and then executing that code. It could be actually be used to read any numbre of sectors from the track the head was currently positioned over. With the addition of maybe 32 more bytes of 6502 code, you could write a head positioner routine that could move the head around and read any sector from the disk. > I've never liked Apple-disk-related problems, since the Apple system > was incredibly fragile and highly unreliable. The first Apple client Huh? > I had who had been using an Apple][+ in his business summarily took > his ][+, drives, and monitor, the whole shebang, out to his dumpster > the day I moved his database to a CP/M system with a conventional FDC > and a conventional pair of 8" DSDD drives. I'd say he was in hog > heaven. His business picked up (though I don't know that the switch > had anything to do with that) and his monthly expenditure for MAALOX, > Whiskey, and prune juice was substantially reduced. Moreover, he got > to see a lot more of his wife and kids. Sounds like user error to me. RTFM. > Until a few weeks back when I got into retrieving old 6502 source > files, I had forgotten what a piece of crap that disk subsystem was. Huh? > No wondern so many folks switched to 8" drives. I surely wish I could > find an old SVA controller ... It's a real wonder > microcomputers caught on as well as they did, given the standard set > by the Apple ][. The work WOZ did to create the disk subsystem was > really ingenious, but still orders of magnitude less reliable than > what was offered on more conventional systems. I have hundreds (>~500) Apple ][ disks that are still readable to this day. Of my 17 or so years of hacking Apple ][s, I've only lost a handful of disks, and that was usually due to physical errors. Once or twice I lost a disk because random sectors were overwritten whilst hacking and the system jumped into the middle of a DOS call, but that was rare. Anyway, I'll just take your statement for what it is. Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org From gunther at aurora.regenstrief.org Tue Oct 30 22:40:01 2001 From: gunther at aurora.regenstrief.org (Gunther Schadow) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:12 2005 Subject: An Organization (was: Do we have a VAX organization?) References: Message-ID: <3BDF80A1.4070900@aurora.regenstrief.org> O.K. as I said in the beginning I really don't like organizational issues. That's why I'm getting nervous about the goals here. I do agree that Sellam's thing is perhaps the best point to start. However, ... We certainly don't need another mailing list. With port-vax and classiccmp (and occasionally comp.os.vms) we have what we need. Certainly we don't need a new style online forum ... those are notoriously non-populated. I also don't have a sophisticated portal web site in mind. Something simple that states the mission of the organization, a few articles about why preserving classic computing equipment is good. Something that plays down the collectible asset value (that's important in many respects!). And most important a list of people and their collections and activities all over the country and the world. Linking to their project web sites. The web site must be simple so it's maintainable. vintage.org is fairly simple, but even so some links and features on the front page don't work, and that shouldn't be. Rather have less stuff that does the job. About local chapters and national meetings etc. I'm sceptical too. It couldn't hurt for some of us weirdos to come out and have some face to face interaction with real humans, OTOH, this takes even more time away for those who are already struggling having a family life and their collection (aside from making a living.) We don't want to steal people from their spouses and kids. I guess that Isildur is right, the non-profit incorporation would be most critical. This would actually provide incentives for folks who have stuff to decommission. Instead of competing against scrap dealers we would have an advantage of a tax deduction for old stuff. That's also why I think we must downplay the collectible asset value. This should be for the fun and curiosity and public service of preservation, and, if possible, public use of the old stuff. It should not be to promote a new fad of collectible items in order to boost a market, issue price guides, promote pocket book driven collections. The PDP-8 market is already going that way. BTW: that's also why I appreciate a clear cut between the vintage.org and the vintagetech.com things. I wouldn't ask Sellam to move any money from his business to the association but the appearence of a for-profit business next to VCF should not be confounding the non-profit nature of the association either. In terms of the need for funds, I'm mostly interested in a "dachorganization" that would make it possible to put old computers into public use. Help those that do. If you run a cluster of VAX 11/780, 8600, and couple of 6000s with full gear, this makes no sense for the privatier to do 24/7 in terms of electricity. Add the costs of a decent Internet connection too. If you want to show blinkenlights (like the cyber PDP-8) you need an even better Internet connection. The whole point of mainframes is multi-user applications, so it's only natural that the 11/780 wants to serve users through the network. One way of doing this would be a "vintage-pass" available to the public for a fee and for members at a discount. The vintage-pass would give people accounts on the systems of all members. This could have multiple levels, like dec-pass, vax-pass, pdp-pass, ibm-pass, etc. It would include various levels of service, such as guest-account, individual-user account, up to sysadmin-account. Optional operator services (Joe Jones mails his old PDP-11 tapes to bring his old work back to life, etc.) You (or your wife or kids) put the tape in and go. There would be some ethics and legal issues involved. On the one hand rules of conduct by the users, monitoring malicious activity (e.g., cool things like the killer- poke on the PET 2001) to a revival of the worm of 1988. Certainly special scrutiny applies for operator or sysadmin accounts. On the other hand the privacy of the user and his data. This is kind of the space I was thinking about. Organizing cyber events, video-conferences, a worm of 1988 revival fest, could be periodic highlights that warrant press releases and may draw attention. Perhaps more than an annual meeting that people won't usually attend anyway. regards -Gunther Vintage Computer Festival wrote: > On Mon, 29 Oct 2001, Jeffrey Sharp wrote: > > >>I think that what is needed most is an international organization that >>covers *all* vintage computers, software, and docs. We need something >>that's implemented well enough that most of us would be convinced to join. >>The best starting point I can think of is Sellam's VCF organization: >> >>* He already has one of the largest inventories of us all. That's a good >> start towards a "Noah's ark" collection, which I think should be one >> function of the organization. >> > > This is in fact one of my missions. I know I won't be able to get every > single model of every single computer, but I can get close. And this has > applications of both practicality and posterity. > > >>* He's got www.vintage.org, which would be a primo domain name for the >> organization. >> >>* He's got www.vintagetech.com, which would be the fundraising part of the >> organization. Dues could be another. >> > > Um, for now, the funds that VintageTech generates are intended for the > Sellam Ismail organization of getting by ;) > > >>* He's got experience running VCFs. >> > > True dat. > > >>Of course, Sellam would have to be interested in being the organization's >>fearless leader! >> > > I appreciate being nominated for this lofty organization. In fact, what > you've described is what I've been working towards for the past 4-5 years. > It's just gone much slower and taken much longer than anticipated due to > distractions and detours in my life. And this is hard work, especially > for one guy. > > >>Other things the organiztion could do: >> >>* A central, Yahoo-like web site that would become the world's foremost >> resource for vintage computer information. It would try to replicate >> all available information for preservation. Individual members would >> also be given a mechanism to have their collection hosted on the site >> under a uniform interface. Those who resist assimilation could still >> have their sites linked to. You could get to info either by >> collector name or a category/manufacturer/series/model tree. It would >> be wonderful... >> > > One day the VCF website will be this portal. > > >>* SIGs would, of course, solidify according to demand. I imagine the VAX >> SIG (VSIG?) would be quite well represented. Each SIG could have its >> own mailing list. The whole thing would be not unlike the FreeBSD >> mailing list system. >> > > One of the next things on the agenda (after finishing the VCF Marketplace) > is a messaging system. Of course, I don't know how useful this will be in > the face of this list and other very active and strong lists. I'll put > the tools out there, it'll be up to folks to put them to good use. > > >>* Rename itself from VCF to IVCA. "International Vintage Computing >> Association" to outsiders, "International Vintage Computing Asylum" >> for insiders. :-) >> > > The VCF will eventually become an international "society" dedicated to the > preservation of old computers and computer history. The VCF events are to > be yearly gatherings that cap off activities that occur throughout the > year. My desire for the past couple years has been to sponsor local > computer collector clubs throughout the world, to create local interest > that then grows into a connected network of clubs. > > >>* I don't know... other stuff. >> >>As you can see, I'm all about grandiose ideas. Now won't someone rise up >>and implement them? :-) >> > > Me too. If I could get organized enough to create an actual organization > then things would move faster. Of course it would require the sacrifices > of other people interested in seeing this vision implemented. > > Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ > International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org > -- Gunther Schadow, M.D., Ph.D. gschadow@regenstrief.org Medical Information Scientist Regenstrief Institute for Health Care Adjunct Assistant Professor Indiana University School of Medicine tel:1(317)630-7960 http://aurora.regenstrief.org From edick at idcomm.com Tue Oct 30 22:49:43 2001 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:12 2005 Subject: hard-sector 5 1/4 disk References: Message-ID: <002901c161c7$75832640$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> Yeah ... what I intended the reader to take from this is that since it's entirely up to the software to determine what, if anything, is done with information gained, or not, from the index/sector holes in a diskette, a system that can ignore them as the Apple does, or one that looks only when they're nominally supposed to occur, doesn't care whether the media is intended to be used soft or hard sectored. 8" drives with the "hard-sector-option" installed have jumpers to open a window in time, typically with one-shots, to allow the detection or suppression of sector holes into 8, 16, or 32 sectors per revolution, even though the media has 32 sector holes and a single index hole, all on one track. That's the same strategy applied in hardware. If you don't really care about where the information is located on the medium, it doesn't matter whether you open a window at all, since you're not going to look for it. Instead, you can paint your own window wherever you like, and use that. Dick ----- Original Message ----- From: "Sellam Ismail" To: Sent: Tuesday, October 30, 2001 9:23 PM Subject: Re: hard-sector 5 1/4 disk > On Tue, 30 Oct 2001, Richard Erlacher wrote: > > > It's conceivable that the software that the Apple][ used didn't look > > for an index pulse until, nominally, the "right" time, at which point > > it waited for it, then proceeded, in which case the extra holes in the > > index track (not a magnetic track) would have no impact. > > The Apple Disk ][ simply has no mechanism for even detecting the index > hole, so this is not even moot. > > I'm having trouble parsing your paragraph so you may well be saying the > same thing. > > > The format was, nevertheless, soft-sectored, thereby allowing a smooth > > transition from 13 sectors to 16 sectors, without a major redesign. > > Yes. > > Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ > International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org > > From edick at idcomm.com Tue Oct 30 22:53:08 2001 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:12 2005 Subject: VLB SCSI? References: <1193.701T1500T75305optimus@canit.se> <001101c15f3f$0c295be0$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> <5.1.0.14.2.20011030232611.00a77040@sokieserv.dhs.org> Message-ID: <002f01c161c7$ef85e400$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> Compaq made other, later, and possibly better servers. They were, methinks, the major player in the EISA camp. If prices for EISA had been lower, volume probably would have been higher, which would have made the connectors less costly, hence making the EISA more numerous. That didn't happen, however. Even so, I never personally saw an EISA system that wasn't for sale. Dick ----- Original Message ----- From: "John Boffemmyer IV" To: Sent: Tuesday, October 30, 2001 9:29 PM Subject: Re: VLB SCSI? > YES! I own an annoying Compaq Proliant 2000 server, pure EISA with a P90 > and a backplane for all the other baords (CPU, RAM expansion, etc.) It has > a nice 2 channel Fast-20 Narrow SCSI controller and a nifty Ethernet card > that has all the connectors (AUI, TP and 9pin D-sub) so, with a > daughtercard, it turns into 16/4 TokenRing. > > At 10:39 PM 10/26/01, you wrote: > >Compaq made plenty of EISA based Pentium servers. > > > >Chad Fernandez > >Michigan, USA > > > >Richard Erlacher wrote: > > > EISA > > > was, by the time the Pentiums came out, pretty much a dead duck. > > ---------------------------------------- > Founder, Lead Writer, Tech Analyst > and Web Designer Boff-Net Technologies > http://boff-net.dhs.org/index.html > --------------------------------------- > > From fernande at internet1.net Tue Oct 30 23:24:01 2001 From: fernande at internet1.net (Chad Fernandez) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:12 2005 Subject: VLB SCSI? References: <1193.701T1500T75305optimus@canit.se> <001101c15f3f$0c295be0$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> <5.1.0.14.2.20011030232611.00a77040@sokieserv.dhs.org> Message-ID: <3BDF8AF0.AA8F1DAF@internet1.net> Why is it annoying? I like EISA. The SCSI card selection is lots better than Microchannel, another one of my favorite PC buses. Chad Fernandez Michigan, USA John Boffemmyer IV wrote: > > YES! I own an annoying Compaq Proliant 2000 server, pure EISA with a P90 > and a backplane for all the other baords (CPU, RAM expansion, etc.) It has > a nice 2 channel Fast-20 Narrow SCSI controller and a nifty Ethernet card > that has all the connectors (AUI, TP and 9pin D-sub) so, with a > daughtercard, it turns into 16/4 TokenRing. > > At 10:39 PM 10/26/01, you wrote: > >Compaq made plenty of EISA based Pentium servers. > > > >Chad Fernandez > >Michigan, USA > > > >Richard Erlacher wrote: > > > EISA > > > was, by the time the Pentiums came out, pretty much a dead duck. > > ---------------------------------------- > Founder, Lead Writer, Tech Analyst > and Web Designer Boff-Net Technologies > http://boff-net.dhs.org/index.html > --------------------------------------- From gunther at aurora.regenstrief.org Tue Oct 30 23:35:56 2001 From: gunther at aurora.regenstrief.org (Gunther Schadow) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:12 2005 Subject: VAX 6400's futile attempts to booting Ultrix 4.1, still some progress ... Message-ID: <3BDF8DBC.4080204@aurora.regenstrief.org> Hi, O.K. the good news is that I managed to boot VMS, read all 40 files from the Ultrix 4.1 boot tape without error (and with the right block size :-) and write those files back to a TK70 tape without major problems. I know that the tape is good and the drive is good. (At least good enough.) And still we won't boot. But that means that something is wrong with that Ultrix version 4.1. It doesn't work on the VAX 6400. Fortunately I am in the position of access to sources that would allow me to build an Ultrix 4.2 based loader. However, I'm even convinced that it isn't the loader's fault. The 4.2 sources of the loader show that it always prints an error before halting. And I never see an error. In fact the only way for the loader to exit without a message appears to be its non-returning call to the vmb.exe gizmo. And -- oh bummer -- I don't seem to have source code for that one. The interesting light pattern at the TBK70 board and the console fault light seems not to indicate a read error from tape, but more likely a futile attempt of some boot stage of getting to talk to the TBK70 and carrying on the next boot stage. Too bad I can't find out when and where this happens. Anyway, quite likely its in the vmb.exe gizmo which is a black box. So, I might need some boot tape of a newer version (one that properly supports the VAX 6400 series) or I have to find an alternative booting strategy. I guess the MOP booting of ultrix might becoming a more feasible option. So, here is a call upon all of you who know something about MOP booting Ultrix. Please give me any info you might have. I have mopd and am on FreeBSD as the boot host. ... ... ... Another alternative is to set up an "InfoServer" VAX station with a CD ROM and an Ultrix CD of a post 4.1 version. Is this something someone has available? May be in the area or something one could set up accessible through the Internet (a 36 kbps modem line, ahem...) Once I have Ultrix up on one machine I can help others to do the same. If not by writing a boot tape by ... ... here is another option how a good soul could help me get going: If you have an Ultrix 4.2 or higher running on an RA disk, I would appreciate a disk image. That I should be able to raw write to another RA90 (or RA82) using VMS and then boot from that disk. Just make sure there is a GENERIC kernel on the disk image. I still don't have a KFMSA, so RF disk images would not help me. Except, perhaps, if someone has Ultrix 4.2 or higher running and some spare disks to tinker with, I might be able to fiddle a generic disk image that could be installed on any disk. BTW: after having fixed my TU81 unit number problem, I still can't boot from TU81. Seems like the VAX 6400 with my EEPROM revision doesn't know how to boot from TU81. If someone (Geoff?) knows he can boot that way, may be I could use an EEPROM update. Would appreciate your EEPROM dump then. Thanks much, -Gunther -- Gunther Schadow, M.D., Ph.D. gschadow@regenstrief.org Medical Information Scientist Regenstrief Institute for Health Care Adjunct Assistant Professor Indiana University School of Medicine tel:1(317)630-7960 http://aurora.regenstrief.org From ctribo at del.net Wed Oct 31 00:14:25 2001 From: ctribo at del.net (Chris Tribo) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:12 2005 Subject: MIPS/VMS In-Reply-To: Message-ID: on 10/30/01 5:45 PM, One Without Reason at vance@ikickass.org wrote: > > I was told at one time that work had begun on MIPS/VMS just before DEC's > abandonment of the DECstation line in favor of Alpha. Does anyone (maybe > a current Compaq employee) know where in some dark corner the sources > might be found? This is most likely not correct. Someone probably has VMS mixed up with OSF/1. DEC began developing OSF/1 on the MIPS DECstations before it's transference to Alpha. I have been told that MIPS support remained in the source tree for OSF/1 up until version 4.0a(then renamed to Digial Unix?). Though I have never bothered to look into it. If you search port-pmax you might find a thread from a year or two ago on this subject. It is entirely possible that DEC was working on MIPS VMS, but that would mean that they were writing/maintaining three different operating systems for the same hardware platform, (MIPS) at the same time. Chris From UberTechnoid at home.com Wed Oct 31 00:08:59 2001 From: UberTechnoid at home.com (UberTechnoid@home.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:12 2005 Subject: Jeez... was (Re: hard-sector 5 1/4 disk) In-Reply-To: <000f01c161ba$ad656800$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> Message-ID: <20011031061936.JPGT24971.femail26.sdc1.sfba.home.com@BENCHBOX> I've seen some unreliable disk drive interfaces in my time. Most notably the ATR8000 and the Percom drives for Atari computers. They supported everything but the data was only readable for about 15min.... Seriously though, we ran the Tardis BBS in Miami, FL on an ATR8000 for more than a year. Frequent backups were required.... I've tried using one off and on as a main drive, and no matter how cool the ATR is, it can't store it's own data in CP/M or as an Atari controller to save it's life. As for the apple and atari drives, I have an experience I'll relate that makes me GOGGLE at what I just read from RIchard. A student while I was a student teacher in Jr high claimed that floppy disks were so very fragile that he would throw away a good floppy after dropping it on his desk just once. I opened two floppy disks, drew out the platters, rubbed them vigorously with a pencil erasor, dusted them off, inserted the platters 'naked' and read them. One into an Atari 810 and the other into an Apple Disk II drive. Both worked of course. Talk about abuse! I wouldn't reccomend this for data you want to read twenty years from the day you wrote it, but the systems are that strong. I too have hundreds and hundreds of Atari disks (90k to 720k) disks that are perfectly readable ten or fifteen years later. What would I do without the "BIG demo"? Regards, Jeff In <000f01c161ba$ad656800$9cc762d8@idcomm.com>, on 10/30/01 at 08:18 PM, "Richard Erlacher" said: >you said " ... >> >> No, it is not conceivable, since there is no light and photocell to EVER >> EVER see the index pulse. >> >..." >I have to disagree, actually, because the Apple diskettes all seem to >have the holes, not that it matters. While the drive may not have the >means to "see" them, since it's about ignoring them, the inability to see >them makes them easier to ignore, which, in turn, explains why someone >might happily use hard sectored diskettes in an Apple][. That was the >point about which there seems to have been some confusion. >and " ... >Except that they did too much in firmware, . . . >..." >Which, admittedly, I don't understand, since the PROM they used was >rather small. (...that's where the firmware lives, doncha know...) Most >of the work was in the software, actually, since it had to do what the >disk format required, and figure out along the way which one it was. >I've never liked Apple-disk-related problems, since the Apple system was >incredibly fragile and highly unreliable. The first Apple client I had >who had been using an Apple][+ in his business summarily took his ][+, >drives, and monitor, the whole shebang, out to his dumpster the day I >moved his database to a CP/M system with a conventional FDC and a >conventional pair of 8" DSDD drives. I'd say he was in hog heaven. His >business picked up (though I don't know that the switch had anything to >do with that) and his monthly expenditure for MAALOX, Whiskey, and prune >juice was substantially reduced. Moreover, he got to see a lot more of >his wife and kids. >Until a few weeks back when I got into retrieving old 6502 source files, >I had forgotten what a piece of crap that disk subsystem was. No wondern >so many folks switched to 8" drives. I surely wish I could find an old >SVA controller ... It's a real wonder microcomputers caught on as >well as they did, given the standard set by the Apple ][. The work WOZ >did to create the disk subsystem was really ingenious, but still orders >of magnitude less reliable than what was offered on more conventional >systems. >Dick >----- Original Message ----- >From: "Fred Cisin (XenoSoft)" >To: >Sent: Tuesday, October 30, 2001 7:16 PM >Subject: Re: hard-sector 5 1/4 disk >> On Tue, 30 Oct 2001, Richard Erlacher wrote: >> > It's conceivable that the software that the Apple][ used didn't look for an >> > index pulse until, nominally, the "right" time, at which point it waited for >it, >> > then proceeded, in which case the extra holes in the index track (not a >magnetic >> > track) would have no impact. >> >> No, it is not conceivable, since there is no light and photocell to EVER >> EVER see the index pulse. >> >> > The format was, nevertheless, soft-sectored, thereby allowing a smooth >> > transition from 13 sectors to 16 sectors, without a major redesign. >> >> Except that they did too much in firmware, . . . >> >> -- ----------------------------------------------------------- Jeffrey S. Worley Asheville, NC USA 828-6984887 UberTechnoid@Home.com ----------------------------------------------------------- From UberTechnoid at home.com Wed Oct 31 00:27:11 2001 From: UberTechnoid at home.com (UberTechnoid@home.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:12 2005 Subject: Ecomstation.org (was Re: An Organization (was: Do we have a VAX organization?)) In-Reply-To: <3BDF80A1.4070900@aurora.regenstrief.org> Message-ID: <20011031062930.NRFS25512.femail21.sdc1.sfba.home.com@BENCHBOX> Check out http://www.ecomstation.org as an example of a website supporting an operating system on an architecture. I was pretty impressed (but then I'm an OS/2 user) :-) Regards, Jeff In <3BDF80A1.4070900@aurora.regenstrief.org>, on 10/30/01 at 11:40 PM, Gunther Schadow said: >O.K. as I said in the beginning I really don't like organizational >issues. That's why I'm getting nervous about the goals here. >I do agree that Sellam's thing is perhaps the best point to >start. However, ... >We certainly don't need another mailing list. With port-vax >and classiccmp (and occasionally comp.os.vms) we have what we need. >Certainly we don't need a new style online forum ... those are >notoriously non-populated. >I also don't have a sophisticated portal web site in mind. >Something simple that states the mission of the organization, a few >articles about why preserving classic computing >equipment is good. Something that plays down the collectible asset value >(that's important in many respects!). And most >important a list of people and their collections and activities all over >the country and the world. Linking to their project web sites. >The web site must be simple so it's maintainable. vintage.org is fairly >simple, but even so some links and features on the front page don't work, >and that shouldn't be. Rather have >less stuff that does the job. >About local chapters and national meetings etc. I'm sceptical too. It >couldn't hurt for some of us weirdos to come out and have some face to >face interaction with real humans, OTOH, this takes even more time away >for those who are already struggling having a family life and their >collection (aside from making a living.) We don't want to steal people >from their spouses and kids. >I guess that Isildur is right, the non-profit incorporation would be most >critical. This would actually provide incentives for folks who have stuff >to decommission. Instead of competing against scrap dealers we would have >an advantage of a tax deduction for old stuff. That's also why I think we >must downplay the >collectible asset value. This should be for the fun and curiosity and >public service of preservation, and, if possible, public use of the old >stuff. It should not be to promote a new fad of collectible items in >order to boost a market, issue price guides, promote pocket book driven >collections. The PDP-8 market is already going that way. >BTW: that's also why I appreciate a clear cut between the >vintage.org and the vintagetech.com things. I wouldn't ask >Sellam to move any money from his business to the association but the >appearence of a for-profit business next to VCF >should not be confounding the non-profit nature of the >association either. >In terms of the need for funds, I'm mostly interested in >a "dachorganization" that would make it possible to put >old computers into public use. Help those that do. If you >run a cluster of VAX 11/780, 8600, and couple of 6000s with >full gear, this makes no sense for the privatier to do >24/7 in terms of electricity. Add the costs of a decent >Internet connection too. If you want to show blinkenlights >(like the cyber PDP-8) you need an even better Internet >connection. >The whole point of mainframes is multi-user applications, so it's only >natural that the 11/780 wants to serve users >through the network. One way of doing this would be a >"vintage-pass" available to the public for a >fee and for members at a discount. The vintage-pass would >give people accounts on the systems of all members. This >could have multiple levels, like dec-pass, vax-pass, pdp-pass, ibm-pass, >etc. It would include various levels of service, >such as guest-account, individual-user account, up to >sysadmin-account. Optional operator services (Joe Jones >mails his old PDP-11 tapes to bring his old work back >to life, etc.) You (or your wife or kids) put the tape in >and go. >There would be some ethics and legal issues involved. On >the one hand rules of conduct by the users, monitoring >malicious activity (e.g., cool things like the killer- >poke on the PET 2001) to a revival of the worm of 1988. >Certainly special scrutiny applies for operator or sysadmin >accounts. On the other hand the privacy of the user and >his data. >This is kind of the space I was thinking about. >Organizing cyber events, video-conferences, a worm of 1988 >revival fest, could be periodic highlights that warrant >press releases and may draw attention. Perhaps more than >an annual meeting that people won't usually attend anyway. >regards >-Gunther >Vintage Computer Festival wrote: > > On Mon, 29 Oct 2001, Jeffrey Sharp wrote: > > > > > >>I think that what is needed most is an international organization that > >>covers *all* vintage computers, software, and docs. We need something > >>that's implemented well enough that most of us would be convinced to >join. > >>The best starting point I can think of is Sellam's VCF organization: > >> > >>* He already has one of the largest inventories of us all. That's a >good > >> start towards a "Noah's ark" collection, which I think should be one > >> function of the organization. > >> > > > > This is in fact one of my missions. I know I won't be able to get >every > > single model of every single computer, but I can get close. And this >has > > applications of both practicality and posterity. > > > > > >>* He's got www.vintage.org, which would be a primo domain name for the > >> organization. > >> > >>* He's got www.vintagetech.com, which would be the fundraising part of >the > >> organization. Dues could be another. > >> > > > > Um, for now, the funds that VintageTech generates are intended for the > > Sellam Ismail organization of getting by ;) > > > > > >>* He's got experience running VCFs. > >> > > > > True dat. > > > > > >>Of course, Sellam would have to be interested in being the >organization's > >>fearless leader! > >> > > > > I appreciate being nominated for this lofty organization. In fact, >what > > you've described is what I've been working towards for the past 4-5 >years. > > It's just gone much slower and taken much longer than anticipated due >to > > distractions and detours in my life. And this is hard work, >especially > > for one guy. > > > > > >>Other things the organiztion could do: > >> > >>* A central, Yahoo-like web site that would become the world's >foremost > >> resource for vintage computer information. It would try to >replicate > >> all available information for preservation. Individual members >would > >> also be given a mechanism to have their collection hosted on the >site > >> under a uniform interface. Those who resist assimilation could >still > >> have their sites linked to. You could get to info either by > >> collector name or a category/manufacturer/series/model tree. It >would > >> be wonderful... > >> > > > > One day the VCF website will be this portal. > > > > > >>* SIGs would, of course, solidify according to demand. I imagine the >VAX > >> SIG (VSIG?) would be quite well represented. Each SIG could have >its > >> own mailing list. The whole thing would be not unlike the FreeBSD > >> mailing list system. > >> > > > > One of the next things on the agenda (after finishing the VCF >Marketplace) > > is a messaging system. Of course, I don't know how useful this will >be in > > the face of this list and other very active and strong lists. I'll >put > > the tools out there, it'll be up to folks to put them to good use. > > > > > >>* Rename itself from VCF to IVCA. "International Vintage Computing > >> Association" to outsiders, "International Vintage Computing Asylum" > >> for insiders. :-) > >> > > > > The VCF will eventually become an international "society" dedicated to >the > > preservation of old computers and computer history. The VCF events >are to > > be yearly gatherings that cap off activities that occur throughout the > > year. My desire for the past couple years has been to sponsor local > > computer collector clubs throughout the world, to create local >interest > > that then grows into a connected network of clubs. > > > > > >>* I don't know... other stuff. > >> > >>As you can see, I'm all about grandiose ideas. Now won't someone rise >up > >>and implement them? :-) > >> > > > > Me too. If I could get organized enough to create an actual >organization > > then things would move faster. Of course it would require the >sacrifices > > of other people interested in seeing this vision implemented. > > > > Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer >Festival > > >------------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > International Man of Intrigue and Danger >http://www.vintage.org > > -- ----------------------------------------------------------- Jeffrey S. Worley Asheville, NC USA 828-6984887 UberTechnoid@Home.com ----------------------------------------------------------- From wmsmith at earthlink.net Wed Oct 31 00:52:35 2001 From: wmsmith at earthlink.net (Wayne M. Smith) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:12 2005 Subject: Price guide for vintage computers References: <01C16188.49376C20@mse-d03> Message-ID: <00a101c161d8$a1ed53c0$eeb1b2d1@Smith.earthlink.net> > Since I haven't seen it mentioned here and in order to continue this > fascinating thread with erudite arguments over their validity, I notice > that UC Davis has suggested values for the items in their collection: > > http://wwwcsif.cs.ucdavis.edu/~csclub/museum/contents.html > Odd values. $500 for a DG-1, but only $250 for an IMSAI 8080? Don't think so. From wmsmith at earthlink.net Wed Oct 31 01:01:02 2001 From: wmsmith at earthlink.net (Wayne M. Smith) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:12 2005 Subject: Intel 8085 References: <01C16188.49376C20@mse-d03> Message-ID: <00a701c161d9$ce21be80$eeb1b2d1@Smith.earthlink.net> I have in front of me the mainboard from an IBM S/23 which according to all reports, runs off an 8085 chip. There are 7 40-pin Intel chips on the board, but none of the package markings display the nos. "8085". Any ideas? From matt at 3am-software.com Wed Oct 31 01:05:12 2001 From: matt at 3am-software.com (Matt Thomas) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:12 2005 Subject: MIPS/VMS In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20011030225759.0c726d00@3am-software.com> At 01:14 AM 10/31/2001 -0500, Chris Tribo wrote: >on 10/30/01 5:45 PM, One Without Reason at vance@ikickass.org wrote: > > > > > I was told at one time that work had begun on MIPS/VMS just before DEC's > > abandonment of the DECstation line in favor of Alpha. Does anyone (maybe > > a current Compaq employee) know where in some dark corner the sources > > might be found? > > This is most likely not correct. Someone probably has VMS mixed up with >OSF/1. DEC began developing OSF/1 on the MIPS DECstations before it's >transference to Alpha. I have been told that MIPS support remained in the >source tree for OSF/1 up until version 4.0a(then renamed to Digial Unix?). >Though I have never bothered to look into it. If you search port-pmax you >might find a thread from a year or two ago on this subject. DEC OSF/1 1.0 was MIPS based (called Tin) while DEC OSF/1 1.2 was both Alpha and MIPS based (called Silver). In my past life, I actually ported software to DEC OSF/1 1.0 from ULTRIX. > It is entirely possible that DEC was working on MIPS VMS, but that would >mean that they were writing/maintaining three different operating systems >for the same hardware platform, (MIPS) at the same time. Well, MIPS/VMS was never even attempted. The folks at DECwest were working on an O/S known as OSIX which was supposed to run PRISM and MicroPRISM (the actual ancestor of Alpha). Eventually OSIX was cancelled when PRISM was cancelled in favor of MIPS (and ULTRIX on MIPS). OSIX can be considered a more direct ancestor of NT than even VMS. -- Matt Thomas Internet: matt@3am-software.com 3am Software Foundry WWW URL: http://www.3am-software.com/bio/matt/ Cupertino, CA Disclaimer: I avow all knowledge of this message From ernestls at home.com Wed Oct 31 01:11:58 2001 From: ernestls at home.com (Ernest) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:12 2005 Subject: Apple II accelerator and Micromodem II questions In-Reply-To: <3BDF1D75.20662.15AE2B9@localhost> Message-ID: > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-classiccmp@classiccmp.org > [mailto:owner-classiccmp@classiccmp.org]On Behalf Of David Williams > Sent: Tuesday, October 30, 2001 7:37 PM > To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org > Subject: Apple II accelerator and Micromodem II questions > > > I have what looks like an accelerator board for an Apple II. Looks > like a Saturn Systems Inc. Accelerator II. Has a 65c02c and 64 K > of ram on board. Anyone have any info on this? Doc? What the > jumper settings are (there is an 8 switch jumper block on it) or any > software needed to use it? I have a manual for it around here somewhere, I'll see what I can dig up. > > This system also has a Micromodem II in it but no doc or the > interface from the board to the phone plug. Anyone have a spare > plug or the pin outs to make one? You need the coupler box for this, which isn't easy to find. It's a black plastic box that plugs into the card, and has a phone jack on the front. E. > > Thanks. > > ----- > "What is, is what?" > > "When the mind is free of any thought or judgement, > then and only then can we know things as they are." > > David Williams - Computer Packrat > dlw@trailingedge.com > http://www.trailingedge.com From vze2mnvr at verizon.net Wed Oct 31 01:14:45 2001 From: vze2mnvr at verizon.net (Ian Koller) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:12 2005 Subject: value of scrap References: <3BDCD06A.13FF@verizon.net> <026b01c16032$455defe0$de2c67cb@helpdesk> <01102908562901.26118@pluto.joules.org> Message-ID: <3BDFA4E5.69E5DF16@verizon.net> > I have already seen the same happen with lead-acid batteries and old > fridges, to name but two examples, And tires. I was under the impression as far as computer equipment in landfills, that it's the monitors with their phosphorous coating that are the biggest problem. And there's little money in those anyway. But I guess that the lead in solder is a problem too? Pretty soon it will become illegal to use a lead sinker to fish with, huh? Peter Joules wrote: > > On Sunday 28 October 2001 11:29 pm, you wrote: > > ----- Original Message ----- > > > > > It sucks that these people would rather scrap out a machine > > > > than let a collector have it for free. > > > > > > It translates to ... > > > > > > "it sucks that people won't give away free money" > > > > Sad but true > > > > Here in the UK that might change soon. It is about to become illegal to send > electronic waste to landfill so it _must_ be recycled. As soon as one has no > choice but to send stuff to scrap merchants, they then tend to start charging > for taking it away instead of paying for it. > > I have already seen the same happen with lead-acid batteries and old fridges, > to name but two examples, when the legislation came in stopping them being > disposed of by other means than sending them for scrap. > > -- > Regards > Pete From ernestls at home.com Wed Oct 31 01:22:01 2001 From: ernestls at home.com (Ernest) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:12 2005 Subject: Price guide for vintage computers In-Reply-To: <01C16188.49376C20@mse-d03> Message-ID: > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-classiccmp@classiccmp.org > [mailto:owner-classiccmp@classiccmp.org]On Behalf Of M H Stein > Sent: Tuesday, October 30, 2001 6:17 PM > To: 'ClassicComputers' > Subject: Price guide for vintage computers > > > Since I haven't seen it mentioned here and in order to continue this > fascinating thread with erudite arguments over their validity, I notice > that UC Davis has suggested values for the items in their collection: > > http://wwwcsif.cs.ucdavis.edu/~csclub/museum/contents.html Well there you go. No need for further discussion. The definitive price guide has already been written. E. From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Tue Oct 30 23:13:06 2001 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (Ben Franchuk) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:12 2005 Subject: CPU design at the gate level Message-ID: <3BDF8862.CEE9887D@jetnet.ab.ca> >What's unfortunate, at least from where I sit, is that though some sources give >you a schematic or an HDL of a CPU, yet they don't tell you WHY the choices made >in its design were made. Normally such decisions are normally driven by >requirements, be it for performance, or for specific addressing modes, chip >size, or whatever. It seems we never see light shed on such matters. Sometimes you can find this information on the web. Now that many of the older computers are of historical value people are writing things down. >One caution is certainly warranted, however. Fully synchronous design became >the default method of designing circuits of anysubstance in the mid-late '80's. >One result, of course, was that signal races were easily avoided, and, with the >use of pipelining, it allowed for the acceleration of some processes at the cost >of increased latency. The use of fully sunchronous design drove up CPU cost, >however, and was not an automatically assumed strategy in the early '70's, so >you've got to consider WHEN a design was specified before making any assumptions >about why things were done in a given way. I thought that that was due more to the fact (core) memory was asynchronous with a wide range of cycle times as well as I/O transfers. Only with memory being in the same box as the cpu does a more synchronous system make sense. >Classic CPU's were mostly NOT fully synchronous, as fully synchronous design >required the use of costlier faster logic families throughout a design when that >wasn't necessarily warranted. Today's FPGA and CPLD devices, when used to host >a classic CPU design, eliminate the justifications for asynchronous design >strategies that were popular in the early '70's - late '80's. Their use >essentially requires the design be synchronous, not only because signal >distribution/routing resources are limited, but because propagation delays are >so different from wht they were in the original discrete version. What is so different a F/F is still a F/F, a gate is still a gate. It is only that routing delays are a unknown so you can't use logic that requires timing delays or or oneshots. It is only that the programs can't discover when logic can or cannot change like a designer can but must use worse case assumptions .It is only in the case when you have a single clock that timing calculations are the most accurate. How ever I suspect most CPU design starts with a clean sheet of paper lays out goals and basic design parameters. A good block diagram often can tell you how complex your system is. While gates are important the quantify and packaging of the gates define just how your system can be laid out. Only after the instruction set is defined do you look at the logic need to produce the Computer System, and once you lay things out you have good idea of what instructions are needed. Of course everything gets revised again and again. http://www.ulib.org/webRoot/Books/Saving_Bell_Books for some interesting reading. Also "CMOS circuit design,layout and simulation" ISBN 0-7803-3416-7 is very good reading for CPU design at the real gate level. Ben Franchuk. -- Standard Disclaimer : 97% speculation 2% bad grammar 1% facts. "Pre-historic Cpu's" http://www.jetnet.ab.ca/users/bfranchuk Now with schematics. From vze2mnvr at verizon.net Wed Oct 31 01:27:06 2001 From: vze2mnvr at verizon.net (Ian Koller) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:13 2005 Subject: Jeez... was (Re: hard-sector 5 1/4 disk) References: <20011031061936.JPGT24971.femail26.sdc1.sfba.home.com@BENCHBOX> Message-ID: <3BDFA7CA.FF7F8546@verizon.net> I tried an interesting experiment once. I put a floppy disk on the magnetic chuck of a surface grinder, a magnetic field strong enough to hold a workpiece in place while grinding it, and after cycling the power a few times, went to try to read the disk. I expected it to be well erased, like using a bulk tape eraser, but to my surprise, the disk read o.k. Perhaps the disk needed to be moved around in the field more before it would have been erased? But with the instructions on disks saying to keep them away from magnetic fields, it sure surprised the heck out of me because that was one pretty strong magnetic field. UberTechnoid@home.com wrote: > > I've seen some unreliable disk drive interfaces in my time. Most notably > the ATR8000 and the Percom drives for Atari computers. They supported > everything but the data was only readable for about 15min.... Seriously > though, we ran the Tardis BBS in Miami, FL on an ATR8000 for more than a > year. Frequent backups were required.... I've tried using one off and on > as a main drive, and no matter how cool the ATR is, it can't store it's > own data in CP/M or as an Atari controller to save it's life. > > As for the apple and atari drives, I have an experience I'll relate that > makes me GOGGLE at what I just read from RIchard. > > A student while I was a student teacher in Jr high claimed that floppy > disks were so very fragile that he would throw away a good floppy after > dropping it on his desk just once. I opened two floppy disks, drew out > the platters, rubbed them vigorously with a pencil erasor, dusted them > off, inserted the platters 'naked' and read them. One into an Atari 810 > and the other into an Apple Disk II drive. Both worked of course. Talk > about abuse! > > I wouldn't reccomend this for data you want to read twenty years from the > day you wrote it, but the systems are that strong. I too have hundreds and > hundreds of Atari disks (90k to 720k) disks that are perfectly readable > ten or fifteen years later. What would I do without the "BIG demo"? > > Regards, > > Jeff > > In <000f01c161ba$ad656800$9cc762d8@idcomm.com>, on 10/30/01 > at 08:18 PM, "Richard Erlacher" said: > > >you said " ... > >> > >> No, it is not conceivable, since there is no light and photocell to EVER > >> EVER see the index pulse. > >> > >..." > >I have to disagree, actually, because the Apple diskettes all seem to > >have the holes, not that it matters. While the drive may not have the > >means to "see" them, since it's about ignoring them, the inability to see > >them makes them easier to ignore, which, in turn, explains why someone > >might happily use hard sectored diskettes in an Apple][. That was the > >point about which there seems to have been some confusion. > > >and " ... > >Except that they did too much in firmware, . . . > >..." > >Which, admittedly, I don't understand, since the PROM they used was > >rather small. (...that's where the firmware lives, doncha know...) Most > >of the work was in the software, actually, since it had to do what the > >disk format required, and figure out along the way which one it was. > > >I've never liked Apple-disk-related problems, since the Apple system was > >incredibly fragile and highly unreliable. The first Apple client I had > >who had been using an Apple][+ in his business summarily took his ][+, > >drives, and monitor, the whole shebang, out to his dumpster the day I > >moved his database to a CP/M system with a conventional FDC and a > >conventional pair of 8" DSDD drives. I'd say he was in hog heaven. His > >business picked up (though I don't know that the switch had anything to > >do with that) and his monthly expenditure for MAALOX, Whiskey, and prune > >juice was substantially reduced. Moreover, he got to see a lot more of > >his wife and kids. > > >Until a few weeks back when I got into retrieving old 6502 source files, > >I had forgotten what a piece of crap that disk subsystem was. No wondern > >so many folks switched to 8" drives. I surely wish I could find an old > >SVA controller ... It's a real wonder microcomputers caught on as > >well as they did, given the standard set by the Apple ][. The work WOZ > >did to create the disk subsystem was really ingenious, but still orders > >of magnitude less reliable than what was offered on more conventional > >systems. > > >Dick > > >----- Original Message ----- > >From: "Fred Cisin (XenoSoft)" > >To: > >Sent: Tuesday, October 30, 2001 7:16 PM > >Subject: Re: hard-sector 5 1/4 disk > > >> On Tue, 30 Oct 2001, Richard Erlacher wrote: > >> > It's conceivable that the software that the Apple][ used didn't look for an > >> > index pulse until, nominally, the "right" time, at which point it waited for > >it, > >> > then proceeded, in which case the extra holes in the index track (not a > >magnetic > >> > track) would have no impact. > >> > >> No, it is not conceivable, since there is no light and photocell to EVER > >> EVER see the index pulse. > >> > >> > The format was, nevertheless, soft-sectored, thereby allowing a smooth > >> > transition from 13 sectors to 16 sectors, without a major redesign. > >> > >> Except that they did too much in firmware, . . . > >> > >> > > -- > ----------------------------------------------------------- > Jeffrey S. Worley > Asheville, NC USA > 828-6984887 > UberTechnoid@Home.com > ----------------------------------------------------------- From foo at siconic.com Wed Oct 31 01:26:44 2001 From: foo at siconic.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:13 2005 Subject: An Organization (was: Do we have a VAX organization?) In-Reply-To: <3BDF80A1.4070900@aurora.regenstrief.org> Message-ID: On Tue, 30 Oct 2001, Gunther Schadow wrote: > We certainly don't need another mailing list. With port-vax and > classiccmp (and occasionally comp.os.vms) we have what we need. > Certainly we don't need a new style online forum ... those are > notoriously non-populated. I would agree. However, the online forums would become repositories for information, in much the same way that the CC archives are repositories. > I also don't have a sophisticated portal web site in mind. Something > simple that states the mission of the organization, a few articles > about why preserving classic computing equipment is good. Something > that plays down the collectible asset value (that's important in many > respects!). And most important a list of people and their collections > and activities all over the country and the world. Linking to their > project web sites. The VCF website is already like this to some extent. > The web site must be simple so it's maintainable. vintage.org is > fairly simple, but even so some links and features on the front page > don't work, and that shouldn't be. Rather have less stuff that does > the job. Aside from the language options, which features do you refer to? (I found the problem with the "NEW" link ;) > About local chapters and national meetings etc. I'm sceptical too. It > couldn't hurt for some of us weirdos to come out and have some face to > face interaction with real humans, OTOH, this takes even more time > away for those who are already struggling having a family life and > their collection (aside from making a living.) We don't want to steal > people from their spouses and kids. I envision meetings being held monthly. It would depend on the organizer of the local club. I can't imagine the club keeping dads or moms from feeding their kids and giving them the nurturing love that they need to grow up to be productive and non-threatening members of society. Hell, bring the kids to the meetings...start them off early with an appreciation for old tech. > I guess that Isildur is right, the non-profit incorporation would be > most critical. This would actually provide incentives for folks who > have stuff to decommission. Instead of competing against scrap dealers > we would have an advantage of a tax deduction for old stuff. That's > also why I think we must downplay the collectible asset value. This I don't like non-profits. Too much overhead and formality required. It has its benefits, but I prefer the philanthropic approach. > BTW: that's also why I appreciate a clear cut between the vintage.org > and the vintagetech.com things. I wouldn't ask Sellam to move any > money from his business to the association but the appearence of a > for-profit business next to VCF should not be confounding the > non-profit nature of the association either. I agree. VintageTech utilizes the VCF Archive for profit gaining motives. That profit goes towards, among other things, funding the VCF enterprise. > In terms of the need for funds, I'm mostly interested in a > "dachorganization" that would make it possible to put old computers > into public use. Help those that do. If you run a cluster of VAX > 11/780, 8600, and couple of 6000s with full gear, this makes no sense > for the privatier to do 24/7 in terms of electricity. Add the costs of > a decent Internet connection too. If you want to show blinkenlights > (like the cyber PDP-8) you need an even better Internet connection. Yes, but where do you set up such a playhouse? If everyone is to enjoy this experience, multiple old computer funhouses would have to be setup throughout the world. > The whole point of mainframes is multi-user applications, so it's only > natural that the 11/780 wants to serve users through the network. One > way of doing this would be a "vintage-pass" available to the public > for a fee and for members at a discount. The vintage-pass would give > people accounts on the systems of all members. This could have > multiple levels, like dec-pass, vax-pass, pdp-pass, ibm-pass, etc. It > would include various levels of service, such as guest-account, > individual-user account, up to sysadmin-account. Optional operator > services (Joe Jones mails his old PDP-11 tapes to bring his old work > back to life, etc.) You (or your wife or kids) put the tape in and go. Aside from the practicality issues and the management of such a network, I like the idea. > Organizing cyber events, video-conferences, a worm of 1988 revival > fest, could be periodic highlights that warrant press releases and may > draw attention. Perhaps more than an annual meeting that people won't > usually attend anyway. Any sort of mainstream interest in such an organization is years away. I was expecting VCF to be big by 5.0. Guess what? I was disappointed. I'm figuring it MIGHT be a large event by 10.0. But will I even still be interested in this crap five years from now? Ask me again in five years... ;) Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org From geoffrob at stmarks.pp.catholic.edu.au Wed Oct 31 01:37:55 2001 From: geoffrob at stmarks.pp.catholic.edu.au (Geoff Roberts) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:13 2005 Subject: VAX 6400's futile attempts to booting Ultrix 4.1, still some progress ... References: <3BDF8DBC.4080204@aurora.regenstrief.org> Message-ID: <031301c161de$f4d617b0$de2c67cb@helpdesk> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Gunther Schadow" To: ; Sent: Wednesday, October 31, 2001 4:05 PM Subject: VAX 6400's futile attempts to booting Ultrix 4.1, still some progress ... > BTW: after having fixed my TU81 unit number problem, I > still can't boot from TU81. Seems like the VAX 6400 > with my EEPROM revision doesn't know how to boot from > TU81. If someone (Geoff?) knows he can boot that way, > may be I could use an EEPROM update. Would appreciate > your EEPROM dump then. I'm going to try booting the 6440 here from a TU81+ tomorrow if I can find the time. I'll let you know what happens. Cheers Geoff Roberts Computer Systems Manager Saint Mark's College Port Pirie, South Australia geoffrob@stmarks.pp.catholic.edu.au ICQ 1970476 From edick at idcomm.com Wed Oct 31 01:47:39 2001 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:13 2005 Subject: hard-sector 5 1/4 disk References: Message-ID: <000f01c161e0$50907ea0$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> I'm referring to the registered prom in the disk controller when I made that remark, since I'm not sure that the boot code had to be modified at all between the two sector sizes, though it's possible. It's not pilot error that causes the Apple disk subsystem to fall apart whenever there's the slightest error, it's the "we've got your money now, so we've got you by the short and curly" attitude that Apple has always had with respet to their customers' data. That design of WOZ's was clever and cheap, ... REALLY cheap ... , but not terribly reliable. Back in the early '80's I didn't know a single user of the genuine Apple disk subsystem that didn't have a data loss per hour in steady use. The guy I mentioned initially had phone-order business, and, because his environment was not perfectly clean, he was constantly having to reboot his Apple, since it couldn't recover from a disk read error, and this was before he had a toll-free number. His customers didn't like the extra 10 minutes it took to get the job done. Remember, that was back when long distance cost something and a dollar was a DOLLAR, not just the price of a candy bar. After he was switched to the CP/M system, he went over a year without a data loss, even though he had power outages now and again, and the risk of contamination was just as bad for the CP/M system as for the Apple. I can't explain it all, but as I said, he happily chucked the Apple after all the grief he'd had. That, by the way is exactly what I plan to do with my remaining Apple hardware once I get this current APEX software thing outta here. My recent contact with the Apple][+, IIe, //c, etc, has convinced me that there's no point in perpetuating the myth. I remember how people whined about the PC's error message for disk errors, yet Apple didn't even have one. It just went TILT. Even back in those days we'd all come to expect better than that, and, by the way, the whole problem was exxentially gone if one used 8" FDD's with the SVA controller. Dick ----- Original Message ----- From: "Sellam Ismail" To: Sent: Tuesday, October 30, 2001 9:35 PM Subject: Re: hard-sector 5 1/4 disk > On Tue, 30 Oct 2001, Richard Erlacher wrote: > > > I have to disagree, actually, because the Apple diskettes all seem to > > have the holes, not that it matters. While the drive may not have the > > Only because that's how they were manufactured. It would be silly to > order disks without the index holes at what most likely would have been a > much higher price just because you didn't need it. > > > Which, admittedly, I don't understand, since the PROM they used was > > rather small. (...that's where the firmware lives, doncha know...) > > Most of the work was in the software, actually, since it had to do > > what the disk format required, and figure out along the way which one > > it was. > > The PROM only had the boot code in it (less than 256 bytes...some of the > tightest code EVER!) It was responsible for loading the first sector of > the first track into memory and then executing that code. It could be > actually be used to read any numbre of sectors from the track the head was > currently positioned over. With the addition of maybe 32 more bytes of > 6502 code, you could write a head positioner routine that could move the > head around and read any sector from the disk. > > > I've never liked Apple-disk-related problems, since the Apple system > > was incredibly fragile and highly unreliable. The first Apple client > > Huh? > > > I had who had been using an Apple][+ in his business summarily took > > his ][+, drives, and monitor, the whole shebang, out to his dumpster > > the day I moved his database to a CP/M system with a conventional FDC > > and a conventional pair of 8" DSDD drives. I'd say he was in hog > > heaven. His business picked up (though I don't know that the switch > > had anything to do with that) and his monthly expenditure for MAALOX, > > Whiskey, and prune juice was substantially reduced. Moreover, he got > > to see a lot more of his wife and kids. > > Sounds like user error to me. RTFM. > > > Until a few weeks back when I got into retrieving old 6502 source > > files, I had forgotten what a piece of crap that disk subsystem was. > > Huh? > > > No wondern so many folks switched to 8" drives. I surely wish I could > > find an old SVA controller ... It's a real wonder > > microcomputers caught on as well as they did, given the standard set > > by the Apple ][. The work WOZ did to create the disk subsystem was > > really ingenious, but still orders of magnitude less reliable than > > what was offered on more conventional systems. > > I have hundreds (>~500) Apple ][ disks that are still readable to this > day. Of my 17 or so years of hacking Apple ][s, I've only lost a handful > of disks, and that was usually due to physical errors. Once or twice I > lost a disk because random sectors were overwritten whilst hacking and the > system jumped into the middle of a DOS call, but that was rare. > > Anyway, I'll just take your statement for what it is. > > Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ > International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org > > From dpeschel at eskimo.com Wed Oct 31 01:49:23 2001 From: dpeschel at eskimo.com (Derek Peschel) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:13 2005 Subject: A twist on blinkenlights Message-ID: <20011030234923.A27202@eskimo.eskimo.com> While visiting the San Francisco area for the Computer Museum History Center's awards dinner, I swung by Stanford to see their exhibit of old (largely Stanford custom) computer hardware. Various groups at Stanford had computer systems (mostly PDP-6 and -10 I believe), but the exhibit highlights the Stanford Artificial Intelligence Lab, a.k.a. SAIL. SAIL had a multiprocessor system containing a KA10, a KL10, and a PDP-6, as well as two smaller computers dedicated to video control, two megawords of memory (eight times the address space of the -10), and disk storage, so they obviously had enough blinkenlights for anyone. But one of the programmers added a box (looking more or less like a tiny traffic light) to his office. Green meant "normal operation". Yellow meant "parity error". (Failures tended to happen in clumps, so after finding one error, the software would kill the affected job and then search for all other errors and kill all other affected jobs.) Red meant "The OS has halted an Exec-mode DDT is running". (Think "kernel debugger".) No lights meant "Things are really messed up". Not exactly high bandwidth, but still an elegant metaphor! -- Derek From edick at idcomm.com Wed Oct 31 02:31:53 2001 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:13 2005 Subject: CPU design at the gate level References: <3BDF8862.CEE9887D@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <002301c161e6$9cb89780$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> Well, there's a wide gap between core memory, and the designs of the era (pre '72) when it was common, and the '80's when fully synchronous design became the order of the day. Another thing to keep in mind is that most CPU's of yesteryear are not integrated circuits, but, rather, board(s) full of the them. I remember looking at a 16-bit CPU from some Florida company that was being customed up by my then local circuit house and it occupied a 22x32" panel (very large for the time) of 5-layer circuit board, all in STTL. The outer layers were intended not so much for containing the RFI as for dissipating the heat, to wit, the entire long outer edges of the board was mounted to a 3-1/2" square heatsink that drew heat from the board and had fans attached specially provided to manage this board's dissipation requirement. It was quite a thing to behold! see additional remarks below, plz. Dick ----- Original Message ----- From: "Ben Franchuk" To: Sent: Tuesday, October 30, 2001 10:13 PM Subject: Re: CPU design at the gate level > >What's unfortunate, at least from where I sit, is that though some sources give > >you a schematic or an HDL of a CPU, yet they don't tell you WHY the choices made > >in its design were made. Normally such decisions are normally driven by > >requirements, be it for performance, or for specific addressing modes, chip > >size, or whatever. It seems we never see light shed on such matters. > > Sometimes you can find this information on the web. Now that many of the > older computers are of historical value people are writing things down. > > >One caution is certainly warranted, however. Fully synchronous design became > >the default method of designing circuits of anysubstance in the mid-late '80's. > >One result, of course, was that signal races were easily avoided, and, with the > >use of pipelining, it allowed for the acceleration of some processes at the cost > >of increased latency. The use of fully sunchronous design drove up CPU cost, > >however, and was not an automatically assumed strategy in the early '70's, so > >you've got to consider WHEN a design was specified before making any assumptions > >about why things were done in a given way. > > I thought that that was due more to the fact (core) memory was > asynchronous with a wide > range of cycle times as well as I/O transfers. Only with memory being in > the same box as > the cpu does a more synchronous system make sense. > > >Classic CPU's were mostly NOT fully synchronous, as fully synchronous design > >required the use of costlier faster logic families throughout a design when that > >wasn't necessarily warranted. Today's FPGA and CPLD devices, when used to host > >a classic CPU design, eliminate the justifications for asynchronous design > >strategies that were popular in the early '70's - late '80's. Their use > >essentially requires the design be synchronous, not only because signal > >distribution/routing resources are limited, but because propagation delays are > >so different from what they were in the original discrete version. > > What is so different a F/F is still a F/F, a gate is still a gate. It is > only that > routing delays are a unknown so you can't use logic that requires timing > delays or > or oneshots. It is only that the programs can't discover when logic can > or cannot change > like a designer can but must use worse case assumptions .It is only in > the case when you > have a single clock that timing calculations are the most accurate. > Not all CPU chips of yesteryear were even built with clocked logic. If you look at the ones with a single clock cycle for a single bus cycle, e.g. 6800, et. al, you'll find that the clock was a useable as a steering member and a timing reference, but not necessarily a clock to a set of registers. I'd say FlipFlops of the R/S and transparent latch sort were much more common than those used for counting. In fact, I recently revisited the 650x core recently and found that it could and probably should be built with no clocked flipflops at all, using the ALU to increment the PC and stack pointer as well as operating on the data registers. That's what reduced the poundage of silicon in the 650x series chips, which, aside from their very elegant instruction set, is what bought them their market share. > What's different is that the style of design that was used back when the classics were being worked out was so different from what's done today. Back then, fully synchronous design meant that all the devices used were of the same technology and that meant cost impacts whenever fully sunchronous rather than locally asynchronous, globally syncrhonized structure was used, since that meant that a nand gate had to have two dual-rank registered inputs and a registered ouput. Which immediately raised the cost of that 30-cent gate to $4.80. Back then arrays were a sea of gates, and things changed depending on which gate of the 4000-6000 identical nands in the array you were using. Today, a small array consists of a putative 100K gates, of which one's lucky to be able to get the equivalent of 10K gates in actual practice. Of course they count a 3-input gate as two gates and a 4-input gate as three, and a D-flop as over a dozen, rather than the 6 it should really use. Then there's that LUT, which , to the marketing department represents a lot of logic, even though you have to use the whole thing just to make a single 5-input AND. Consider how much of the marketing departments resources you consume with what would have been a 74S133. > > How ever I suspect most CPU design starts with a clean sheet of paper > lays out goals and basic > design parameters. A good block diagram often can tell you how complex > your system is. > While gates are important the quantify and packaging of the gates define > just how your system > can be laid out. Only after the instruction set is defined do you look > at the logic need > to produce the Computer System, and once you lay things out you have > good idea of > what instructions are needed. Of course everything gets revised again > and again. > Well, if you put pencil to paper before the instruction set is defined, and before the requirements are firmly defined, you're wasting time, and, sadly, I doubt that many CPU designs start on a clean sheet of paper these days. They certainly didn't back in the "old days." There's always the political baggage. > > http://www.ulib.org/webRoot/Books/Saving_Bell_Books for some > interesting reading. > Also "CMOS circuit design,layout and simulation" ISBN 0-7803-3416-7 is > very good reading for CPU design at the real gate level. > Ben Franchuk. > -- > Standard Disclaimer : 97% speculation 2% bad grammar 1% facts. > "Pre-historic Cpu's" http://www.jetnet.ab.ca/users/bfranchuk > Now with schematics. > > From dec.parts at verizon.net Wed Oct 31 02:34:48 2001 From: dec.parts at verizon.net (Info from LSI) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:13 2005 Subject: [Fwd: value of scrap] References: <3BDFA4FC.58CF8F4E@verizon.net> Message-ID: <3BDFB7A8.1AEC@verizon.net> > As soon as one has no choice but to send stuff to scrap > merchants, they then tend to start charging for taking it > away instead of paying for it. That might not happen with circuit boards though. What's being recovered is Gold, Palladium, Tantalum, maybe some silver, among other materials. And the competition amongst recyclers to be the one to be able to service this ought to keep them willing to pay for the raw materials. But break your equipment down, so you're just turning in the circuit boards. And if you separate the low yield PC grade ones from the high yield commercial grade ones, you still might do all right with them. > > Here in the UK that might change soon. It is about to become illegal to send > electronic waste to landfill so it _must_ be recycled. As soon as one has no > choice but to send stuff to scrap merchants, they then tend to start charging > for taking it away instead of paying for it. > > I have already seen the same happen with lead-acid batteries and old fridges, > to name but two examples, when the legislation came in stopping them being > disposed of by other means than sending them for scrap. > > -- > Regards > Pete From Antonio.Carlini at riverstonenet.com Wed Oct 31 03:10:19 2001 From: Antonio.Carlini at riverstonenet.com (Carlini, Antonio) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:13 2005 Subject: Re. Hunt for DRV11-WA / DRV11-SA Field Maintenance Print Sets Message-ID: <3820E2042B6ED5118DC200D0B78EDC470661DE@exc-reo1> From: Lowndesz@aol.com >I am trying to find Field Maintenance Print Sets for the following cards: > >- DRV11-WA >- DRV11-SA This may help: http://www.mainecoon.com/classiccmp/DRV11/ and another is here: http://208.190.133.201/decimages/moremanuals.htm The DRV11-WA user guide can be found here: http://www.mcmanis.com/chuck/computers/vaxen/boards.htm Antonio arcarlini@iee.org From sipke at wxs.nl Wed Oct 31 03:44:49 2001 From: sipke at wxs.nl (Sipke de Wal) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:13 2005 Subject: Jeez... was (Re: hard-sector 5 1/4 disk) References: <20011031061936.JPGT24971.femail26.sdc1.sfba.home.com@BENCHBOX> <3BDFA7CA.FF7F8546@verizon.net> Message-ID: <008601c161f0$af94e2a0$030101ac@boll.casema.net> On the other hand .............. I have a very large permanent magnet from the voicecoil assembly of a scrapped laundrymachine-sized diskdrive (which I took apart 12 years ago!). Whenever I have a tape that I need to reformat but that refuses to do so, I'll leave it on the magnet for a few hours and presto.... I will reformat afterwards! Strong magnetic fields are never a good environment for preserving data on magnetic media! Sipke de Wal -------------------------------------------------- http://xgistor.ath.cx -------------------------------------------------- ----- Original Message ----- From: Ian Koller To: ; Sent: Wednesday, October 31, 2001 8:27 AM Subject: Re: Jeez... was (Re: hard-sector 5 1/4 disk) > > > I tried an interesting experiment once. I put a floppy disk > on the magnetic chuck of a surface grinder, a magnetic field > strong enough to hold a workpiece in place while grinding it, > and after cycling the power a few times, went to try to read > the disk. I expected it to be well erased, like using a bulk > tape eraser, but to my surprise, the disk read o.k. Perhaps > the disk needed to be moved around in the field more before > it would have been erased? But with the instructions on disks > saying to keep them away from magnetic fields, it sure surprised > the heck out of me because that was one pretty strong magnetic > field. > > > > > UberTechnoid@home.com wrote: > > > > I've seen some unreliable disk drive interfaces in my time. Most notably > > the ATR8000 and the Percom drives for Atari computers. They supported > > everything but the data was only readable for about 15min.... Seriously > > though, we ran the Tardis BBS in Miami, FL on an ATR8000 for more than a > > year. Frequent backups were required.... I've tried using one off and on > > as a main drive, and no matter how cool the ATR is, it can't store it's > > own data in CP/M or as an Atari controller to save it's life. > > > > As for the apple and atari drives, I have an experience I'll relate that > > makes me GOGGLE at what I just read from RIchard. > > > > A student while I was a student teacher in Jr high claimed that floppy > > disks were so very fragile that he would throw away a good floppy after > > dropping it on his desk just once. I opened two floppy disks, drew out > > the platters, rubbed them vigorously with a pencil erasor, dusted them > > off, inserted the platters 'naked' and read them. One into an Atari 810 > > and the other into an Apple Disk II drive. Both worked of course. Talk > > about abuse! > > > > I wouldn't reccomend this for data you want to read twenty years from the > > day you wrote it, but the systems are that strong. I too have hundreds and > > hundreds of Atari disks (90k to 720k) disks that are perfectly readable > > ten or fifteen years later. What would I do without the "BIG demo"? > > > > Regards, > > > > Jeff > > > > In <000f01c161ba$ad656800$9cc762d8@idcomm.com>, on 10/30/01 > > at 08:18 PM, "Richard Erlacher" said: > > > > >you said " ... > > >> > > >> No, it is not conceivable, since there is no light and photocell to EVER > > >> EVER see the index pulse. > > >> > > >..." > > >I have to disagree, actually, because the Apple diskettes all seem to > > >have the holes, not that it matters. While the drive may not have the > > >means to "see" them, since it's about ignoring them, the inability to see > > >them makes them easier to ignore, which, in turn, explains why someone > > >might happily use hard sectored diskettes in an Apple][. That was the > > >point about which there seems to have been some confusion. > > > > >and " ... > > >Except that they did too much in firmware, . . . > > >..." > > >Which, admittedly, I don't understand, since the PROM they used was > > >rather small. (...that's where the firmware lives, doncha know...) Most > > >of the work was in the software, actually, since it had to do what the > > >disk format required, and figure out along the way which one it was. > > > > >I've never liked Apple-disk-related problems, since the Apple system was > > >incredibly fragile and highly unreliable. The first Apple client I had > > >who had been using an Apple][+ in his business summarily took his ][+, > > >drives, and monitor, the whole shebang, out to his dumpster the day I > > >moved his database to a CP/M system with a conventional FDC and a > > >conventional pair of 8" DSDD drives. I'd say he was in hog heaven. His > > >business picked up (though I don't know that the switch had anything to > > >do with that) and his monthly expenditure for MAALOX, Whiskey, and prune > > >juice was substantially reduced. Moreover, he got to see a lot more of > > >his wife and kids. > > > > >Until a few weeks back when I got into retrieving old 6502 source files, > > >I had forgotten what a piece of crap that disk subsystem was. No wondern > > >so many folks switched to 8" drives. I surely wish I could find an old > > >SVA controller ... It's a real wonder microcomputers caught on as > > >well as they did, given the standard set by the Apple ][. The work WOZ > > >did to create the disk subsystem was really ingenious, but still orders > > >of magnitude less reliable than what was offered on more conventional > > >systems. > > > > >Dick > > > > >----- Original Message ----- > > >From: "Fred Cisin (XenoSoft)" > > >To: > > >Sent: Tuesday, October 30, 2001 7:16 PM > > >Subject: Re: hard-sector 5 1/4 disk > > > > >> On Tue, 30 Oct 2001, Richard Erlacher wrote: > > >> > It's conceivable that the software that the Apple][ used didn't look for an > > >> > index pulse until, nominally, the "right" time, at which point it waited for > > >it, > > >> > then proceeded, in which case the extra holes in the index track (not a > > >magnetic > > >> > track) would have no impact. > > >> > > >> No, it is not conceivable, since there is no light and photocell to EVER > > >> EVER see the index pulse. > > >> > > >> > The format was, nevertheless, soft-sectored, thereby allowing a smooth > > >> > transition from 13 sectors to 16 sectors, without a major redesign. > > >> > > >> Except that they did too much in firmware, . . . > > >> > > >> > > > > -- > > ----------------------------------------------------------- > > Jeffrey S. Worley > > Asheville, NC USA > > 828-6984887 > > UberTechnoid@Home.com > > ----------------------------------------------------------- From dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com Wed Oct 31 07:33:56 2001 From: dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com (Douglas Quebbeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:13 2005 Subject: Acronyms Message-ID: <7A9BACCEF0171D4FB77019F5104CDD37225852@jeffserver.tegjeff.com> > On 30-Oct-2001 Eric Chomko wrote: > > ROFLMAOGSFTH - rolling on floor laughing my ass off getting spliters > > from the hardwood > > 2 letters : K-Y Hey, watch it! This is a family list.... Unless that was a remark about a certain state, in which case I'd say, "Hey watch it! This is a family list..." ;-) From thompson at mail.athenet.net Wed Oct 31 08:16:14 2001 From: thompson at mail.athenet.net (Paul Thompson) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:13 2005 Subject: VAX 6400's futile attempts to booting Ultrix 4.1, still some progress ... In-Reply-To: <3BDF8DBC.4080204@aurora.regenstrief.org> Message-ID: On Wed, 31 Oct 2001, Gunther Schadow wrote: > Hi, > > Another alternative is to set up an "InfoServer" > VAX station with a CD ROM and an Ultrix CD of a > post 4.1 version. Is this something someone has available? > May be in the area or something one could set up > accessible through the Internet (a 36 kbps modem line, > ahem...) Once I have Ultrix up on one machine I can > help others to do the same. If not by writing a boot > tape by ... I have an infoserver 100. Unfortunately, the infoserver uses a local area protocol which would require bridging rather than routing to get to you. I don't have vax ultrix. > > ... here is another option how a good soul could help > me get going: If you have an Ultrix 4.2 or higher > running on an RA disk, I would appreciate a disk image. > That I should be able to raw write to another RA90 > (or RA82) using VMS and then boot from that disk. > Just make sure there is a GENERIC kernel on the disk > image. I still don't have a KFMSA, so RF disk images > would not help me. Except, perhaps, if someone has > Ultrix 4.2 or higher running and some spare disks > to tinker with, I might be able to fiddle a generic > disk image that could be installed on any disk. A vax ultrix image from any disk smaller than your RA82 should work with your machine provided there is a generic kernel. I have taken dd image of (mips) ultrix from a RZ55 and RF71 and placed it on a IBM 0661 400mb disk drive and had it work. (All through a DSSI/SCSI interface, at that) Incidentally, what utility did you use for raw writing with VMS? -- From edick at idcomm.com Wed Oct 31 08:40:52 2001 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:13 2005 Subject: Jeez... was (Re: hard-sector 5 1/4 disk) References: <20011031061936.JPGT24971.femail26.sdc1.sfba.home.com@BENCHBOX> <3BDFA7CA.FF7F8546@verizon.net> <008601c161f0$af94e2a0$030101ac@boll.casema.net> Message-ID: <001701c1621a$0aca8200$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> Actually, you might find that an electromagnet works faster. Years ago, a friend tossed his only copy of some sort of data that he'd produced onto an Apple "graphics tablet." That bulk-erased it very nicely. I don't remember the details, but it apparently had a moving magnetic field that it sensed in some way with the "pen" it used. ... Unfortunate way to learn about this, I guess, but there's a message there for those wishing to "clean" their otherwise unformattable diskettes. Dick ----- Original Message ----- From: "Sipke de Wal" To: Sent: Wednesday, October 31, 2001 2:44 AM Subject: Re: Jeez... was (Re: hard-sector 5 1/4 disk) > On the other hand .............. > > I have a very large permanent magnet from the > voicecoil assembly of a scrapped laundrymachine-sized > diskdrive (which I took apart 12 years ago!). > > Whenever I have a tape that I need to reformat but > that refuses to do so, I'll leave it on the magnet for a few > hours and presto.... I will reformat afterwards! > > Strong magnetic fields are never a good environment > for preserving data on magnetic media! > > Sipke de Wal > -------------------------------------------------- > http://xgistor.ath.cx > -------------------------------------------------- > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Ian Koller > To: ; > Sent: Wednesday, October 31, 2001 8:27 AM > Subject: Re: Jeez... was (Re: hard-sector 5 1/4 disk) > > > > > > > > I tried an interesting experiment once. I put a floppy disk > > on the magnetic chuck of a surface grinder, a magnetic field > > strong enough to hold a workpiece in place while grinding it, > > and after cycling the power a few times, went to try to read > > the disk. I expected it to be well erased, like using a bulk > > tape eraser, but to my surprise, the disk read o.k. Perhaps > > the disk needed to be moved around in the field more before > > it would have been erased? But with the instructions on disks > > saying to keep them away from magnetic fields, it sure surprised > > the heck out of me because that was one pretty strong magnetic > > field. > > > > > > > > > > UberTechnoid@home.com wrote: > > > > > > I've seen some unreliable disk drive interfaces in my time. Most notably > > > the ATR8000 and the Percom drives for Atari computers. They supported > > > everything but the data was only readable for about 15min.... Seriously > > > though, we ran the Tardis BBS in Miami, FL on an ATR8000 for more than a > > > year. Frequent backups were required.... I've tried using one off and on > > > as a main drive, and no matter how cool the ATR is, it can't store it's > > > own data in CP/M or as an Atari controller to save it's life. > > > > > > As for the apple and atari drives, I have an experience I'll relate that > > > makes me GOGGLE at what I just read from RIchard. > > > > > > A student while I was a student teacher in Jr high claimed that floppy > > > disks were so very fragile that he would throw away a good floppy after > > > dropping it on his desk just once. I opened two floppy disks, drew out > > > the platters, rubbed them vigorously with a pencil erasor, dusted them > > > off, inserted the platters 'naked' and read them. One into an Atari 810 > > > and the other into an Apple Disk II drive. Both worked of course. Talk > > > about abuse! > > > > > > I wouldn't reccomend this for data you want to read twenty years from the > > > day you wrote it, but the systems are that strong. I too have hundreds and > > > hundreds of Atari disks (90k to 720k) disks that are perfectly readable > > > ten or fifteen years later. What would I do without the "BIG demo"? > > > > > > Regards, > > > > > > Jeff > > > > > > In <000f01c161ba$ad656800$9cc762d8@idcomm.com>, on 10/30/01 > > > at 08:18 PM, "Richard Erlacher" said: > > > > > > >you said " ... > > > >> > > > >> No, it is not conceivable, since there is no light and photocell to EVER > > > >> EVER see the index pulse. > > > >> > > > >..." > > > >I have to disagree, actually, because the Apple diskettes all seem to > > > >have the holes, not that it matters. While the drive may not have the > > > >means to "see" them, since it's about ignoring them, the inability to see > > > >them makes them easier to ignore, which, in turn, explains why someone > > > >might happily use hard sectored diskettes in an Apple][. That was the > > > >point about which there seems to have been some confusion. > > > > > > >and " ... > > > >Except that they did too much in firmware, . . . > > > >..." > > > >Which, admittedly, I don't understand, since the PROM they used was > > > >rather small. (...that's where the firmware lives, doncha know...) Most > > > >of the work was in the software, actually, since it had to do what the > > > >disk format required, and figure out along the way which one it was. > > > > > > >I've never liked Apple-disk-related problems, since the Apple system was > > > >incredibly fragile and highly unreliable. The first Apple client I had > > > >who had been using an Apple][+ in his business summarily took his ][+, > > > >drives, and monitor, the whole shebang, out to his dumpster the day I > > > >moved his database to a CP/M system with a conventional FDC and a > > > >conventional pair of 8" DSDD drives. I'd say he was in hog heaven. His > > > >business picked up (though I don't know that the switch had anything to > > > >do with that) and his monthly expenditure for MAALOX, Whiskey, and prune > > > >juice was substantially reduced. Moreover, he got to see a lot more of > > > >his wife and kids. > > > > > > >Until a few weeks back when I got into retrieving old 6502 source files, > > > >I had forgotten what a piece of crap that disk subsystem was. No wondern > > > >so many folks switched to 8" drives. I surely wish I could find an old > > > >SVA controller ... It's a real wonder microcomputers caught on as > > > >well as they did, given the standard set by the Apple ][. The work WOZ > > > >did to create the disk subsystem was really ingenious, but still orders > > > >of magnitude less reliable than what was offered on more conventional > > > >systems. > > > > > > >Dick > > > > > > >----- Original Message ----- > > > >From: "Fred Cisin (XenoSoft)" > > > >To: > > > >Sent: Tuesday, October 30, 2001 7:16 PM > > > >Subject: Re: hard-sector 5 1/4 disk > > > > > > >> On Tue, 30 Oct 2001, Richard Erlacher wrote: > > > >> > It's conceivable that the software that the Apple][ used didn't look > for an > > > >> > index pulse until, nominally, the "right" time, at which point it > waited for > > > >it, > > > >> > then proceeded, in which case the extra holes in the index track (not a > > > >magnetic > > > >> > track) would have no impact. > > > >> > > > >> No, it is not conceivable, since there is no light and photocell to EVER > > > >> EVER see the index pulse. > > > >> > > > >> > The format was, nevertheless, soft-sectored, thereby allowing a smooth > > > >> > transition from 13 sectors to 16 sectors, without a major redesign. > > > >> > > > >> Except that they did too much in firmware, . . . > > > >> > > > >> > > > > > > -- > > > ----------------------------------------------------------- > > > Jeffrey S. Worley > > > Asheville, NC USA > > > 828-6984887 > > > UberTechnoid@Home.com > > > ----------------------------------------------------------- > > From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Wed Oct 31 09:37:23 2001 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (Ben Franchuk) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:13 2005 Subject: CPU design at the gate level References: <3BDF8862.CEE9887D@jetnet.ab.ca> <002301c161e6$9cb89780$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> Message-ID: <3BE01AB3.C4CD0541@jetnet.ab.ca> Richard Erlacher wrote: > Another thing to keep in mind is that most CPU's of yesteryear are not > integrated circuits, but, rather, board(s) full of the them. I remember looking > at a 16-bit CPU from some Florida company that was being customed up by my then > local circuit house and it occupied a 22x32" panel (very large for the time) of > 5-layer circuit board, all in STTL. The outer layers were intended not so much > for containing the RFI as for dissipating the heat, to wit, the entire long > outer edges of the board was mounted to a 3-1/2" square heatsink that drew heat > from the board and had fans attached specially provided to manage this board's > dissipation requirement. It was quite a thing to behold! > > see additional remarks below, plz. > > Dick > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Ben Franchuk" > To: > Sent: Tuesday, October 30, 2001 10:13 PM > Subject: Re: CPU design at the gate level > > > >What's unfortunate, at least from where I sit, is that though some sources > give > > >you a schematic or an HDL of a CPU, yet they don't tell you WHY the choices > made > > >in its design were made. Normally such decisions are normally driven by > > >requirements, be it for performance, or for specific addressing modes, chip > > >size, or whatever. It seems we never see light shed on such matters. > > > > Sometimes you can find this information on the web. Now that many of the > > older computers are of historical value people are writing things down. > > > > >One caution is certainly warranted, however. Fully synchronous design became > > >the default method of designing circuits of anysubstance in the mid-late > '80's. > > >One result, of course, was that signal races were easily avoided, and, with > the > > >use of pipelining, it allowed for the acceleration of some processes at the > cost > > >of increased latency. The use of fully sunchronous design drove up CPU cost, > > >however, and was not an automatically assumed strategy in the early '70's, so > > >you've got to consider WHEN a design was specified before making any > assumptions > > >about why things were done in a given way. > > > > I thought that that was due more to the fact (core) memory was > > asynchronous with a wide > > range of cycle times as well as I/O transfers. Only with memory being in > > the same box as > > the cpu does a more synchronous system make sense. > > > > >Classic CPU's were mostly NOT fully synchronous, as fully synchronous design > > >required the use of costlier faster logic families throughout a design when > that > > >wasn't necessarily warranted. Today's FPGA and CPLD devices, when used to > host > > >a classic CPU design, eliminate the justifications for asynchronous design > > >strategies that were popular in the early '70's - late '80's. Their use > > >essentially requires the design be synchronous, not only because signal > > >distribution/routing resources are limited, but because propagation delays > are > > >so different from what they were in the original discrete version. > > > > What is so different a F/F is still a F/F, a gate is still a gate. It is > > only that > > routing delays are a unknown so you can't use logic that requires timing > > delays or > > or oneshots. It is only that the programs can't discover when logic can > > or cannot change > > like a designer can but must use worse case assumptions .It is only in > > the case when you > > have a single clock that timing calculations are the most accurate. > > > Not all CPU chips of yesteryear were even built with clocked logic. If you look > at the ones with a single clock cycle for a single bus cycle, e.g. 6800, et. al, > you'll find that the clock was a useable as a steering member and a timing > reference, but not necessarily a clock to a set of registers. I'd say FlipFlops > of the R/S and transparent latch sort were much more common than those used for > counting. In fact, I recently revisited the 650x core recently and found that > it could and probably should be built with no clocked flipflops at all, using > the ALU to increment the PC and stack pointer as well as operating on the data > registers. That's what reduced the poundage of silicon in the 650x series > chips, which, aside from their very elegant instruction set, is what bought them > their market share. > > > What's different is that the style of design that was used back when the > classics were being worked out was so different from what's done today. Back > then, fully synchronous design meant that all the devices used were of the same > technology and that meant cost impacts whenever fully sunchronous rather than > locally asynchronous, globally syncrhonized structure was used, since that meant > that a nand gate had to have two dual-rank registered inputs and a registered > ouput. Which immediately raised the cost of that 30-cent gate to $4.80. Back > then arrays were a sea of gates, and things changed depending on which gate of > the 4000-6000 identical nands in the array you were using. Today, a small array > consists of a putative 100K gates, of which one's lucky to be able to get the > equivalent of 10K gates in actual practice. Of course they count a 3-input gate > as two gates and a 4-input gate as three, and a D-flop as over a dozen, rather > than the 6 it should really use. Then there's that LUT, which , to the > marketing department represents a lot of logic, even though you have to use the > whole thing just to make a single 5-input AND. Consider how much of the > marketing departments resources you consume with what would have been a 74S133. > > > > How ever I suspect most CPU design starts with a clean sheet of paper > > lays out goals and basic > > design parameters. A good block diagram often can tell you how complex > > your system is. > > While gates are important the quantify and packaging of the gates define > > just how your system > > can be laid out. Only after the instruction set is defined do you look > > at the logic need > > to produce the Computer System, and once you lay things out you have > > good idea of > > what instructions are needed. Of course everything gets revised again > > and again. > > > Well, if you put pencil to paper before the instruction set is defined, and > before the requirements are firmly defined, you're wasting time, and, sadly, I > doubt that many CPU designs start on a clean sheet of paper these days. They > certainly didn't back in the "old days." There's always the political baggage. > > > > http://www.ulib.org/webRoot/Books/Saving_Bell_Books for some > > interesting reading. > > Also "CMOS circuit design,layout and simulation" ISBN 0-7803-3416-7 is > > very good reading for CPU design at the real gate level. > > > Ben Franchuk. > > -- > > Standard Disclaimer : 97% speculation 2% bad grammar 1% facts. > > "Pre-historic Cpu's" http://www.jetnet.ab.ca/users/bfranchuk > > Now with schematics. > > > > -- Standard Disclaimer : 97% speculation 2% bad grammar 1% facts. "Pre-historic Cpu's" http://www.jetnet.ab.ca/users/bfranchuk Now with schematics. From allain at panix.com Wed Oct 31 09:34:41 2001 From: allain at panix.com (John Allain) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:13 2005 Subject: Jeez... was (Re: hard-sector 5 1/4 disk) References: <20011031061936.JPGT24971.femail26.sdc1.sfba.home.com@BENCHBOX> <3BDFA7CA.FF7F8546@verizon.net> <008601c161f0$af94e2a0$030101ac@boll.casema.net> <001701c1621a$0aca8200$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> Message-ID: <000701c16221$8fa3bd00$8a0101ac@ibm23xhr06> A "real" degausser is just an AC open core transformer IIJC*. John A If I Judge Correctly From dlw at trailingedge.com Wed Oct 31 10:07:17 2001 From: dlw at trailingedge.com (David Williams) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:13 2005 Subject: Apple II accelerator and Micromodem II questions In-Reply-To: References: <3BDF1D75.20662.15AE2B9@localhost> Message-ID: <3BDFCD55.6487.19152C@localhost> On 30 Oct 2001, at 23:11, Ernest wrote: > I have a manual for it around here somewhere, I'll see what I can dig > up. Thanks, anything at all would be helpful. > You need the coupler box for this, which isn't easy to find. It's a > black plastic box that plugs into the card, and has a phone jack on > the front. I hoped to maybe make a new one, assuming it was just a pass through connection of some sort. ----- "What is, is what?" "When the mind is free of any thought or judgement, then and only then can we know things as they are." David Williams - Computer Packrat dlw@trailingedge.com http://www.trailingedge.com From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Wed Oct 31 10:15:19 2001 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (Ben Franchuk) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:13 2005 Subject: CPU design at the gate level References: <3BDF8862.CEE9887D@jetnet.ab.ca> <002301c161e6$9cb89780$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> Message-ID: <3BE02397.FF7C5E55@jetnet.ab.ca> Richard Erlacher wrote: > > Well, there's a wide gap between core memory, and the designs of the era (pre > '72) when it was common, and the '80's when fully synchronous design became the > order of the day. > > Another thing to keep in mind is that most CPU's of yesteryear are not > integrated circuits, but, rather, board(s) full of the them. I remember looking > at a 16-bit CPU from some Florida company that was being customed up by my then > local circuit house and it occupied a 22x32" panel (very large for the time) of > 5-layer circuit board, all in STTL. The outer layers were intended not so much > for containing the RFI as for dissipating the heat, to wit, the entire long > outer edges of the board was mounted to a 3-1/2" square heatsink that drew heat > from the board and had fans attached specially provided to manage this board's > dissipation requirement. It was quite a thing to behold! And POWER was cheap. > Not all CPU chips of yesteryear were even built with clocked logic. If you look > at the ones with a single clock cycle for a single bus cycle, e.g. 6800, et. al, > you'll find that the clock was a useable as a steering member and a timing > reference, but not necessarily a clock to a set of registers. I'd say FlipFlops > of the R/S and transparent latch sort were much more common than those used for > counting. In fact, I recently revisited the 650x core recently and found that > it could and probably should be built with no clocked flipflops at all, using > the ALU to increment the PC and stack pointer as well as operating on the data > registers. That's what reduced the poundage of silicon in the 650x series > chips, which, aside from their very elegant instruction set, is what bought them > their market share. Playing around with a TTL style cpu design in a FPGA I found I needed lots of clock enables but had I used real TTL I would of just generated the 4 or 5 clocks needed. Like you said using latches saves about 1/2 the gates needed of a Flip/Flop and that saves a good bit. The 6800/6502 memory interface is nice. That is the style I am using on my FPGA. > > > What's different is that the style of design that was used back when the > classics were being worked out was so different from what's done today. Back > then, fully synchronous design meant that all the devices used were of the same > technology and that meant cost impacts whenever fully sunchronous rather than > locally asynchronous, globally syncrhonized structure was used, since that meant > that a nand gate had to have two dual-rank registered inputs and a registered > ouput. Which immediately raised the cost of that 30-cent gate to $4.80. Back > then arrays were a sea of gates, and things changed depending on which gate of > the 4000-6000 identical nands in the array you were using. Never used the stuff. Since they don't make TTL any more I kind was forced into using FPGA's. :). Also a FPGA prototype board is cheaper than 150 new TTL. Mind you now that I got the FPGA working TTL looks better since I don't have to burn PROMS. Of course the problem that 74LS382's and 16x4 non-inverting ram don't exist today does make life difficult. > Today, a small array > consists of a putative 100K gates, of which one's lucky to be able to get the > equivalent of 10K gates in actual practice. Of course they count a 3-input gate > as two gates and a 4-input gate as three, and a D-flop as over a dozen, rather > than the 6 it should really use. Then there's that LUT, which , to the > marketing department represents a lot of logic, even though you have to use the > whole thing just to make a single 5-input AND. Consider how much of the > marketing departments resources you consume with what would have been a 74S133. 100K gates Ha! LUT's tend to be really wasteful of multiplexes. A 4-1 multiplexer is 3 logic cells. Mind with the stupid marketing works you can't get the small and easy to work with FPGA's cheap but you are expected to buy the large and painful chips for $$$. All of my FPGA work is a hobby so I have to stick to 84 PLCC packages that nobody wants to sell. I like anti-fuse FPGA's idea of you power up and go. Reminds me of TTL :). > Well, if you put pencil to paper before the instruction set is defined, and > before the requirements are firmly defined, you're wasting time, and, sadly, I > doubt that many CPU designs start on a clean sheet of paper these days. They > certainly didn't back in the "old days." There's always the political baggage. That is true there is baggage.My two gripes today are 1) No bootstrapping a minimal system in hardware & software - you need everything to run. 2) Non serviceable equipment and docs. Ben Franchuk. -- Standard Disclaimer : 97% speculation 2% bad grammar 1% facts. "Pre-historic Cpu's" http://www.jetnet.ab.ca/users/bfranchuk Now with schematics. From foo at siconic.com Wed Oct 31 10:34:11 2001 From: foo at siconic.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:13 2005 Subject: hard-sector 5 1/4 disk In-Reply-To: <000f01c161e0$50907ea0$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> Message-ID: On Wed, 31 Oct 2001, Richard Erlacher wrote: > It's not pilot error that causes the Apple disk subsystem to fall > apart whenever there's the slightest error, it's the "we've got your > money now, so we've got you by the short and curly" attitude that > Apple has always had with respet to their customers' data. That > design of WOZ's was clever and cheap, ... REALLY cheap ... , but not > terribly reliable. Back in the early '80's I didn't know a single > user of the genuine Apple disk subsystem that didn't have a data loss > per hour in steady use. The guy I mentioned initially had phone-order You must have had some very unlucky friends. If everyone had this same experience then there probably would not have been millions of Apple disk systems sold. > business, and, because his environment was not perfectly clean, he was > constantly having to reboot his Apple, since it couldn't recover from > a disk read error, and this was before he had a toll-free number. Sounds like shitty software to me. > I remember how people whined about the PC's error > message for disk errors, yet Apple didn't even have one. It just went > TILT. No it didn't. > Even back in those days we'd all come to expect better than that, and, > by the way, the whole problem was exxentially gone if one used 8" > FDD's with the SVA controller. How did that fix bad software with poorly designed error recovery? Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org From foo at siconic.com Wed Oct 31 10:39:53 2001 From: foo at siconic.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:13 2005 Subject: Apple II accelerator and Micromodem II questions In-Reply-To: <3BDFCD55.6487.19152C@localhost> Message-ID: On Wed, 31 Oct 2001, David Williams wrote: > > You need the coupler box for this, which isn't easy to find. It's a > > black plastic box that plugs into the card, and has a phone jack on > > the front. > > I hoped to maybe make a new one, assuming it was just a pass > through connection of some sort. It isn't. This modem was made in the days when you weren't allowed to hook anything to the phone system unless it was Bell approved. This particular box (called the "coupler") is an approved device for attaching the modem to the phone network. If I'm not mistaken, it contains the relays necessary for going on and off "hook", among other circuitry that provides filtering and isolation. The modem by itself cannot do this, and needs the coupler to fully function. The Micromodem IIe (my first modem) had all this circuitry on-board. The end of the modem had an RJ-14 jack that you mounted onto the back of the computer. I run across the couplers occasionally. The next time I see one I'll grab it for you. Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org From cmcmanis at mcmanis.com Wed Oct 31 10:55:59 2001 From: cmcmanis at mcmanis.com (Chuck McManis) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:13 2005 Subject: CPU design at the gate level In-Reply-To: <3BE02397.FF7C5E55@jetnet.ab.ca> References: <3BDF8862.CEE9887D@jetnet.ab.ca> <002301c161e6$9cb89780$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20011031085310.00ac3b10@mcmanis.com> At 08:15 AM 10/31/01, Ben wrote: >That is true there is baggage.My two gripes today are > >1) No bootstrapping a minimal system in hardware & software - you need >everything to run. Take a page from Classic computers as I did and put a dedicated "console processor" on the front of your FPGA. I've got a board for doing a "soft" robot CPU that I hope to get to after BattleBots that has a PIC chip (small single chip MCU) as the console processor. It loads the main CPU from either serial EEPROM or from a serial line into the FPGA on power up, sequences the power, and provides the diagnostic interface when things go strangely. >2) Non serviceable equipment and docs. This is truly a pain. --Chuck From george at racsys.rt.rain.com Wed Oct 31 11:06:03 2001 From: george at racsys.rt.rain.com (George Leo Rachor Jr.) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:13 2005 Subject: Apple II accelerator and Micromodem II questions In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Sellam, I too have a Micromodem without that coupler... If you run across an extra.... George Rachor ========================================================= George L. Rachor Jr. george@rachors.com Hillsboro, Oregon http://rachors.com United States of America Amateur Radio : KD7DCX On Wed, 31 Oct 2001, Sellam Ismail wrote: > On Wed, 31 Oct 2001, David Williams wrote: > > > > You need the coupler box for this, which isn't easy to find. It's a > > > black plastic box that plugs into the card, and has a phone jack on > > > the front. > > > > I hoped to maybe make a new one, assuming it was just a pass > > through connection of some sort. > > It isn't. This modem was made in the days when you weren't allowed to > hook anything to the phone system unless it was Bell approved. This > particular box (called the "coupler") is an approved device for attaching > the modem to the phone network. > > If I'm not mistaken, it contains the relays necessary for going on and off > "hook", among other circuitry that provides filtering and isolation. The > modem by itself cannot do this, and needs the coupler to fully function. > > The Micromodem IIe (my first modem) had all this circuitry on-board. The > end of the modem had an RJ-14 jack that you mounted onto the back of the > computer. > > I run across the couplers occasionally. The next time I see one I'll grab > it for you. > > Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ > International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org > > From dlw at trailingedge.com Wed Oct 31 11:13:29 2001 From: dlw at trailingedge.com (David Williams) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:13 2005 Subject: Apple II accelerator and Micromodem II questions In-Reply-To: References: <3BDFCD55.6487.19152C@localhost> Message-ID: <3BDFDCD9.15314.55B54D@localhost> On 31 Oct 2001, at 8:39, Sellam Ismail wrote: > It isn't. This modem was made in the days when you weren't allowed to Damn, figures. > I run across the couplers occasionally. The next time I see one I'll > grab it for you. That would be great! Thanks. ----- "What is, is what?" "When the mind is free of any thought or judgement, then and only then can we know things as they are." David Williams - Computer Packrat dlw@trailingedge.com http://www.trailingedge.com From mrfusion at umbar.vaxpower.org Wed Oct 31 11:18:38 2001 From: mrfusion at umbar.vaxpower.org (Lord Isildur) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:13 2005 Subject: VAX 6400's futile attempts to booting Ultrix 4.1, still some progress ... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: I can put up a vax/ultrix disk image somewhere ftp'able. It'll be on cmuccvax in /usr3/open at some point, maybe today if i get some time after work. Isildur On Wed, 31 Oct 2001, Paul Thompson wrote: > On Wed, 31 Oct 2001, Gunther Schadow wrote: > > > Hi, > > > > Another alternative is to set up an "InfoServer" > > VAX station with a CD ROM and an Ultrix CD of a > > post 4.1 version. Is this something someone has available? > > May be in the area or something one could set up > > accessible through the Internet (a 36 kbps modem line, > > ahem...) Once I have Ultrix up on one machine I can > > help others to do the same. If not by writing a boot > > tape by ... > > I have an infoserver 100. Unfortunately, the infoserver uses a local area > protocol which would require bridging rather than routing to get to you. > I don't have vax ultrix. > > > > > ... here is another option how a good soul could help > > me get going: If you have an Ultrix 4.2 or higher > > running on an RA disk, I would appreciate a disk image. > > That I should be able to raw write to another RA90 > > (or RA82) using VMS and then boot from that disk. > > Just make sure there is a GENERIC kernel on the disk > > image. I still don't have a KFMSA, so RF disk images > > would not help me. Except, perhaps, if someone has > > Ultrix 4.2 or higher running and some spare disks > > to tinker with, I might be able to fiddle a generic > > disk image that could be installed on any disk. > > A vax ultrix image from any disk smaller than your RA82 should work with > your machine provided there is a generic kernel. I have taken dd image of > (mips) ultrix from a RZ55 and RF71 and placed it on a IBM 0661 400mb disk > drive and had it work. (All through a DSSI/SCSI interface, at that) > > Incidentally, what utility did you use for raw writing with VMS? > > -- > > From paul at orchard.wccnet.org Wed Oct 31 11:21:54 2001 From: paul at orchard.wccnet.org (Paul R. Santa-Maria) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:13 2005 Subject: HP-UX items In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Five people asked about the HP-UX manuals and CD-ROMs I offered to the list on October 15. I was going to give them to a local person so I could visit and see the computer out of curiosity, but that person did not have the computer yet. So, I have fired up my random number generator and chosen a winner from the five interested folks. I will contact that person off-list for shipping information. Paul R. Santa-Maria Monroe, Michigan USA From ernestls at home.com Wed Oct 31 11:37:17 2001 From: ernestls at home.com (Ernest) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:13 2005 Subject: Apple II accelerator and Micromodem II questions In-Reply-To: <3BDF1D75.20662.15AE2B9@localhost> Message-ID: > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-classiccmp@classiccmp.org > [mailto:owner-classiccmp@classiccmp.org]On Behalf Of David Williams > Sent: Tuesday, October 30, 2001 7:37 PM > To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org > Subject: Apple II accelerator and Micromodem II questions > > > I have what looks like an accelerator board for an Apple II. Looks > like a Saturn Systems Inc. Accelerator II. Has a 65c02c and 64 K > of ram on board. Anyone have any info on this? The Accelerator II makes your Apple II run 3.6 times faster. Based on a fast 6502 processor with 64k of high-speed memory. Includes built-in fast language card. Special pre-boot diskette included to run Applesoft, Pascal, and Integer basic from on board RAM. Just plug in the Accelerator II and make your Apple one of the most powerful microcomputers available. Suggested retail price: $599.00 I took this info from an add in Byte (May, 1983) I'll dig around today and see what I can find for it. I wonder if I have the preboot disk? E. From cisin at xenosoft.com Wed Oct 31 11:37:24 2001 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin (XenoSoft)) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:13 2005 Subject: Erasing diskettes (was: Jeez... was (Re: hard-sector 5 1/4 disk) In-Reply-To: <001701c1621a$0aca8200$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> Message-ID: If you don't want to lose the content of a diskette, then it takes very little (proximity to the ignition system of a car, graphics tablet, flourescent ballast, clock motor, Earth's magnetic field, etc.) If you are TRYING to erase a diskette, then almost nothing will do it (surface grinder, speaker coil, the magnet that they lift cars with for the crusher, etc.) -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin@xenosoft.com From sieler at allegro.com Wed Oct 31 11:58:50 2001 From: sieler at allegro.com (Stan Sieler) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:13 2005 Subject: Long lines In-Reply-To: <01C1615F.C24D0760@mse-d03> Message-ID: <3BDFCB5A.15661.9487C20@localhost> Hi, Re: > just imagine all those ASR33s pounding away in the last column... Ah yes, I remember that well! thanks for the chuckle! Stan Sieler sieler@allegro.com www.allegro.com/sieler/wanted/index.html www.allegro.com/sieler From sieler at allegro.com Wed Oct 31 11:59:38 2001 From: sieler at allegro.com (Stan Sieler) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:13 2005 Subject: Long lines In-Reply-To: <01C1615F.C24D0760@mse-d03> Message-ID: <3BDFCB8A.24505.9493624@localhost> Hi, Re: > just imagine all those ASR33s pounding away in the last column... Ah yes, I remember that well! thanks for the chuckle! Stan Sieler sieler@allegro.com www.allegro.com/sieler/wanted/index.html www.allegro.com/sieler From sieler at allegro.com Wed Oct 31 12:20:48 2001 From: sieler at allegro.com (Stan Sieler) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:13 2005 Subject: HP 2000 notes Message-ID: <3BDFD080.15077.95C9963@localhost> Hi, Seen on another newsgroup, I thought this might be of interest to HP 2000 collectors ... particularly the note about "dozens of paper tapes" :) ------- Forwarded message follows ------- Date sent: Wed, 31 Oct 2001 11:11:28 -0500 Subject: Re: [HP3000-L] OT: HP2000? From: John Korb To: HP3000-L@RAVEN.UTC.EDU Send reply to: John Korb The HP 2000 is a very old machine, the last of which rolled off the assembly line in 1978. George Mason University (the State University in Northern Virginia) had (it is long gone) the next-to-last HP 2000 produced. It ran a version of the operating system with date code 1812. The operating system on this system was "HP 2000 ACCESS BASIC". The system GMU had (which was fairly typical of the HP 2000's of the day) consisted of the following hardware: -- one 21MX-E processor with 64K bytes RAM, used as the "System Processor" -- one 21MX-E processor with 64K bytes RAM, used as the "I/O Processor" -- one 7970E nine track 1600 CPI tape drive -- one 7920 disc drive with 50 MB capacity, of which the Access operating system could only address the first approximately 33 MB -- one 2617 line printer -- one 2392A card reader -- one 2640b terminal as the system console The operating system supported 32 users. As the "HP 2000 ACCESS BASIC" name implies, the system supported a single language, BASIC, but it was a good one, and the old BASIC/V on the HP 3000 appears to be an expansion of the HP 2000 ACCESS BASIC. There were interfaces RJE, and many HP 2000's supported users who created/edited batch jobs on the HP 2000 which were then submitted through the RJE interface to an IBM, CDC, Univac, or other mainframe (as GMU did). There was no print spooler or spooler for the card reader, so people wrote their own, in BASIC, some supporting GE Terminets or DECwriters as remote spooled printers. The accounting structure was based upon account names consisting of four characters - a letter followed by a three digit number. The "A000" account was the equivalent of the HP 3000's "PUB.SYS". It was the system library account, and had special privileges. It was here that you placed the "HELLO" program that every user ran when they logged in, whether they knew it or not. Group library accounts on the HP 2000 were those accounts where the three digits in the account name were "000". For example, all users in the accounts D301 through D399 would be allowed special access to programs/files in the D300 account. The Z999 account was used by HP for special purposes. It has been so long now that I don't remember what the unique capabilities of Z999 were. The HP 2000 also had the capability of running other operating systems in stand-alone, single-user mode. One of these was Fortran, but I never used it so I can't comment on it. In my basement I still have dozens of paper tapes of HP 2000 BASIC programs. In 1999 and 2000 I converted some of those to run on the Classic (16 bit) HP 3000 in BASIC/V. The most difficult part of converting HP 2000 BASIC programs to run on the HP 3000 is that the disc files on the HP 2000 were based on 512 byte "blocks", which means that any HP 2000 application "smart" enough to know the algorithm used to calculate how many free bytes there are remaining in a block (there are overhead bytes for each string, etc.) has to be painfully rewritten to run on the HP 3000. That's about all I have time for. I hope that gives you some feel for the HP 2000. There were many of us who loved that little system. As to whether there are any still running, I don't know, but I doubt it. John At 2001-10-31 10:21, David T Darnell wrote: >Dear List, > >I've seen references to the HP2000 a few times on this list. [...] >What's an HP2000? Where can I get more info on it. How about online docs? ------- End of forwarded message ------- Stan Sieler sieler@allegro.com www.allegro.com/sieler/wanted/index.html www.allegro.com/sieler From sieler at allegro.com Wed Oct 31 12:22:49 2001 From: sieler at allegro.com (Stan Sieler) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:13 2005 Subject: HP2000 notes Message-ID: <3BDFD0F9.6073.95E71B8@localhost> One more: Scans of an HP 2000 brochure are at: http://www.editcorp.com/Links/Gallery/index.html Stan Sieler sieler@allegro.com www.allegro.com/sieler/wanted/index.html www.allegro.com/sieler From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Wed Oct 31 12:39:28 2001 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (Ben Franchuk) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:13 2005 Subject: CPU design at the gate level References: <3BDF8862.CEE9887D@jetnet.ab.ca> <002301c161e6$9cb89780$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> <5.1.0.14.0.20011031085310.00ac3b10@mcmanis.com> Message-ID: <3BE04560.2A6CA2B@jetnet.ab.ca> Chuck McManis wrote: > > At 08:15 AM 10/31/01, Ben wrote: > >That is true there is baggage.My two gripes today are > > > >1) No bootstrapping a minimal system in hardware & software - you need > >everything to run. > > Take a page from Classic computers as I did and put a dedicated "console > processor" on the front of your FPGA. Classic Computers??? From where? I am still grumbling that I could not get front panel interface on my fpga. I refuse to have a CPU to boot my CPU. (Note hidden cpu's in HD's count too.) I want to hit reset and have the CPU load from bootstrap device regardless of main memory. This is the way I have the FPGA set up, boot strap from the serial port.In fact if I had a PROM bootstrap I would have not worked with my system as wire was broke in the middle between the FPGA and memory, and took forever to debug as a data bit would float. >I've got a board for doing a "soft" > robot CPU that I hope to get to after BattleBots that has a PIC chip (small > single chip MCU) as the console processor. It loads the main CPU from > either serial EEPROM or from a serial line into the FPGA on power up, > sequences the power, and provides the diagnostic interface when things go > strangely. Why use a eprom and counter when you can use 50 million transistors.:) Only after the fpga works 100% will I burn a prom, as the PC --> FPGA is good way to test the system. Ben Franchuk. BTW the prom for the FPGA is 512k bits or 64KB. I have a whopping 32K of memory and will use 8k for a OS leaving 24k for programs. Some how a FPGA config prom bigger than my basic system hints how big is normal for everything. -- Standard Disclaimer : 97% speculation 2% bad grammar 1% facts. "Pre-historic Cpu's" http://www.jetnet.ab.ca/users/bfranchuk Now with schematics. From dlw at trailingedge.com Wed Oct 31 12:57:17 2001 From: dlw at trailingedge.com (David Williams) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:13 2005 Subject: Apple II accelerator and Micromodem II questions In-Reply-To: References: <3BDF1D75.20662.15AE2B9@localhost> Message-ID: <3BDFF52D.30429.B4BF8C@localhost> Thanks. Now I have to find the software for this thing. On 31 Oct 2001, at 9:37, Ernest wrote: > The Accelerator II makes your Apple II run 3.6 times faster. Based on > a fast 6502 processor with 64k of high-speed memory. Includes built-in > fast language card. Special pre-boot diskette included to run > Applesoft, Pascal, and Integer basic from on board RAM. Just plug in > the Accelerator II and make your Apple one of the most powerful > microcomputers available. > > Suggested retail price: $599.00 > > I took this info from an add in Byte (May, 1983) > > I'll dig around today and see what I can find for it. I wonder if I > have the preboot disk? ----- "What is, is what?" "When the mind is free of any thought or judgement, then and only then can we know things as they are." David Williams - Computer Packrat dlw@trailingedge.com http://www.trailingedge.com From cmcmanis at mcmanis.com Wed Oct 31 13:12:24 2001 From: cmcmanis at mcmanis.com (Chuck McManis) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:13 2005 Subject: CPU design at the gate level In-Reply-To: <3BE04560.2A6CA2B@jetnet.ab.ca> References: <3BDF8862.CEE9887D@jetnet.ab.ca> <002301c161e6$9cb89780$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> <5.1.0.14.0.20011031085310.00ac3b10@mcmanis.com> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20011031110107.02467890@mcmanis.com> At 10:39 AM 10/31/01, Ben wrote: > > Take a page from Classic computers as I did and put a dedicated "console > > processor" on the front of your FPGA. > >Classic Computers??? From where? The VAX series has had PDP-11 front ends that load microcode, run diagnostics, power cycle the system and boot the operating system. The D-series of machines from Xerox had microcode that was loaded from floppy, the IBM 360 machines did an initial microprogram load from floppy, the DEC 10 series had a PDP-11/40 as its console server, there are others. Its a tried and true technology. > I am still grumbling that I could not get >front panel interface on my fpga. This question doesn't make sense, if you want a front panel design it in, if you're talking about actually manipulating the bits in the FPGA then use another FPGA to make a JTAG front panel. >I refuse to have a CPU to boot my CPU. >(Note hidden cpu's in HD's count too.) I want to hit reset and have the >CPU load from bootstrap device regardless of main memory. This is the >way I >have the FPGA set up, boot strap from the serial port. Perhaps we're quibbling semantics. The role of the PIC in my design is as a serial port, and it has the ability to program serial EEPROMs so I don't need a special cable to reload the FPGA data, I just power cycle with a jumper set. >In fact if I had a >PROM bootstrap I would have not worked with my system as wire was broke >in the >middle between the FPGA and memory, and took forever to debug as a data >bit would float. I guess you lost me here. You're saying that the FPGA configuration PROM was disconnected from the FPGA and that was hard to debug and so having an 8 pin PIC chip on board to run diagnostics for you in this sort of case is worthless and antithetical to your design goals? > >I've got a board for doing a "soft" > > robot CPU that I hope to get to after BattleBots that has a PIC chip (small > > single chip MCU) as the console processor. It loads the main CPU from > > either serial EEPROM or from a serial line into the FPGA on power up, > > sequences the power, and provides the diagnostic interface when things go > > strangely. > >Why use a eprom and counter when you can use 50 million transistors.:) >Only after the fpga works 100% will I burn a prom, as the PC --> FPGA is >good way to test the system. In my case I actually needed the ability to add op-codes and peripherals on the fly so I don't use PROM. In the mean time I down load new EEPROM configs on the fly and reset and go, easy to debug and can be shipped as final hardware as well. >BTW the prom for the FPGA is 512k bits or 64KB. I have a whopping 32K of >memory and will use 8k for a OS leaving 24k for programs. Some how a >FPGA config prom bigger than my basic system hints how big is normal >for everything. How is this any different than a PDP-11 where the microcode store might have more bits than main memory? Its one 8 pin part to hold the configuration information and one 8 pin part to control it. --Chuck From donm at cts.com Wed Oct 31 13:28:34 2001 From: donm at cts.com (Don Maslin) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:13 2005 Subject: Jeez... was (Re: hard-sector 5 1/4 disk) In-Reply-To: <000701c16221$8fa3bd00$8a0101ac@ibm23xhr06> Message-ID: On Wed, 31 Oct 2001, John Allain wrote: > A "real" degausser is just an AC open > core transformer IIJC*. > > John A > If I Judge Correctly > But with only a single winding. - don From CordaAJ at nswc.navy.mil Wed Oct 31 13:32:19 2001 From: CordaAJ at nswc.navy.mil (Corda Albert J DLVA) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:13 2005 Subject: Emulex Qbus Disk controller? (Need help identifying this one) Message-ID: <7B4C28C84831D211BFA200805F9F34561A8F14@nswcdlvaex04.nswc.navy.mil> I'm trying to bring up NetBSD on a Vax 4000/300, and so I'm looking for a MSCP SCSI disk controller. After going through my stack of Qbus boards (collected from hamfests, etc.) I came across one that looks like it might be a SCSI controller... unfortunately, I haven't been able to confirm it, since a google search turns up very little on it (a bad sign...sigh) The board is labeled: "Emulex Corp QD2410401-02 rev F" It has 3 connectors and a DIP switch on the front plate. The connectors appear to be of the SCSI-2 form factor. Has anyone run across this critter before, or tried it with NetBSD? Come to think of it, Is this even SCSI, or something else entirely? Also, does anyone know where their might be some on-line docs for it, or at least a description of the DIP switch settings... -thanks- -al- -acorda@1bigred.com From donm at cts.com Wed Oct 31 13:38:45 2001 From: donm at cts.com (Don Maslin) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:13 2005 Subject: Erasing diskettes (was: Jeez... was (Re: hard-sector 5 1/4 disk) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Wed, 31 Oct 2001, Fred Cisin (XenoSoft) wrote: > If you don't want to lose the content of a diskette, then it takes very > little (proximity to the ignition system of a car, graphics tablet, > flourescent ballast, clock motor, Earth's magnetic field, etc.) > > If you are TRYING to erase a diskette, then almost nothing will do it > (surface grinder, speaker coil, the magnet that they lift cars with for > the crusher, etc.) > > -- > Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin@xenosoft.com > A truly classic case of the innate perversity of inanimate objects! - don From vcf at vintage.org Wed Oct 31 13:51:02 2001 From: vcf at vintage.org (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:13 2005 Subject: Sharp PC-5000 for sale (early 1983 "laptop") update Message-ID: This is your last chance to submit an offer, otherwise this thing goes for $77. I'm surprised there's not more interest in this. Oh well. ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Sat, 27 Oct 2001 15:58:28 -0700 (PDT) From: Vintage Computer Festival To: Classic Computers Mailing List Subject: Re: Sharp PC-5000 for sale (early 1983 "laptop") update Someone's going to get a hell of a deal. Top offer so far is $77. I'm also throwing in the printer module with this: http://www.siconic.com/crap/sharp_t_printer.jpg This fits into the compartment on the top of the computer. > I have a new-in-box Sharp PC-5000 for sale at $350 or best offer by 6:00PM > PST October 31st. That is, $350 takes it now (going by first received > e-mail response); otherwise, it goes to the best offer under $350 that I > receive by 6PM-10/31. Buyer pays shipping from zip code 94588. I am > willing to ship internationally > > The Sharp PC-5000 is one of the very first clamshell style portables > (later known as laptops) circa 1983. According to our own Uncle Roger, it > even beat out the Gavilan. > > http://sinasohn.com/cgi-bin/clascomp/bldhtm.pl?computer=shp5000 > > This unit comes in the original box, with the original packing foam, is > basically new, has the manuals and battery and power supply (everything > that originally came with it), as well as a bubble memory carthridge. > > Photos: > > The Computer > http://www.siconic.com/crap/sharp5000.jpg > > The Box > http://www.siconic.com/crap/sharp_box.jpg > > The Manual > http://www.siconic.com/crap/Sharp_us_g.jpg > > The Bubble Memory Module > http://www.siconic.com/crap/Sharp_Bm_box.jpg > > Please reply directly to me at . If you have any > questions, ask away! Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org From lemay at cs.umn.edu Wed Oct 31 13:56:45 2001 From: lemay at cs.umn.edu (Lawrence LeMay) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:13 2005 Subject: SGI challenge L Message-ID: <200110311956.NAA04652@caesar.cs.umn.edu> Does anyone here have a SGI Challenge L? They're tossing a few that dont work, so I might be able to get a small part or so if it is needed. There are some hard drives, i'm told they are differential, but they probably wont last long once the students start grabbing them (students dont know what differential is anyways). -Lawrence LeMay lemay@cs.umn.edu From mhstein at usa.net Wed Oct 31 14:15:38 2001 From: mhstein at usa.net (M H Stein) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:13 2005 Subject: Price guide for vintage computers Message-ID: <01C1621F.04AF7380@mse-d03> ----------------Original Message--------------- Date: Tue, 30 Oct 2001 22:52:35 -0800 From: "Wayne M. Smith" Subject: Re: Price guide for vintage computers Odd values. $500 for a DG-1, but only $250 for an IMSAI 8080? Don't think so. ------------- Didn't think so either, but thought it'd be interesting to show just how useful(-less?) a price guide might be. ----------------Original Message2--------------- Date: Tue, 30 Oct 2001 23:22:01 -0800 From: "Ernest" Subject: RE: Price guide for vintage computers Well there you go. No need for further discussion. The definitive price guide has already been written. E. ------------- LOL From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Wed Oct 31 14:30:02 2001 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (Ben Franchuk) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:13 2005 Subject: CPU design at the gate level References: <3BDF8862.CEE9887D@jetnet.ab.ca> <002301c161e6$9cb89780$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> <5.1.0.14.0.20011031085310.00ac3b10@mcmanis.com> <5.1.0.14.0.20011031110107.02467890@mcmanis.com> Message-ID: <3BE05F4A.5421ECF@jetnet.ab.ca> Chuck McManis wrote: > The VAX series has had PDP-11 front ends that load microcode, run > diagnostics, power cycle the system and boot the operating system. The > D-series of machines from Xerox had microcode that was loaded from floppy, > the IBM 360 machines did an initial microprogram load from floppy, the DEC > 10 series had a PDP-11/40 as its console server, there are others. Its a > tried and true technology. I knew most of that, I thought you had a specific web page you got your material from > This question doesn't make sense, if you want a front panel design it in, > if you're talking about actually manipulating the bits in the FPGA then use > another FPGA to make a JTAG front panel. I was referring to the CPU design and Instruction Set. A hard reset causes a bootstrap program to read in off the serial port. I configure the FPGA from a host PC. The cpu is a 12/24 bit design. Bootstrap format: oooo, octal data oooooooo] octal address load oooooooo\ octal program start leader/white space > Perhaps we're quibbling semantics. The role of the PIC in my design is as a > serial port, and it has the ability to program serial EEPROMs so I don't > need a special cable to reload the FPGA data, I just power cycle with a > jumper set. A handy feature. > I guess you lost me here. You're saying that the FPGA configuration PROM > was disconnected from the FPGA and that was hard to debug and so having an > 8 pin PIC chip on board to run diagnostics for you in this sort of case is > worthless and antithetical to your design goals? You still have to program the PIC. The fault was with the general memory bus, not the FPGA configuration. In my case I actually needed the ability to add op-codes and peripherals on > the fly so I don't use PROM. In the mean time I down load new EEPROM > configs on the fly and reset and go, easy to debug and can be shipped as > final hardware as well. Fancy stuff there. > How is this any different than a PDP-11 where the microcode store might > have more bits than main memory? Its one 8 pin part to hold the > configuration information and one 8 pin part to control it. I used a PDP-8/e and a PDP-S all in one BOX computers. :) It is hard to get use to several meg of bits in a 8 bit package when you still remember using core memory. Ben Franchuk. -- Standard Disclaimer : 97% speculation 2% bad grammar 1% facts. "Pre-historic Cpu's" http://www.jetnet.ab.ca/users/bfranchuk Now with schematics. From uban at ubanproductions.com Wed Oct 31 14:29:11 2001 From: uban at ubanproductions.com (Tom Uban) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:13 2005 Subject: Emulex Qbus Disk controller? (Need help identifying this one) Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.20011031142911.008aca90@ubanproductions.com> >From the Field Guide to Qbus and Unibus Modules: http://world.std.com/~mbg/pdp11-field-guide.txt It would appear that you have the following: QD24 Q Emulex ESDI disk controller. Emulates MSCP. For VAX 3500/3600 I'm not sure which one you really want, but it is probably in the Field Guide, possibly one of the UC controllers. --tom At 02:32 PM 10/31/01 -0500, you wrote: > >I'm trying to bring up NetBSD on a Vax 4000/300, and so I'm >looking for a MSCP SCSI disk controller. After going through >my stack of Qbus boards (collected from hamfests, etc.) I came across >one that looks like it might be a SCSI controller... unfortunately, >I haven't been able to confirm it, since a google search turns up >very little on it (a bad sign...sigh) The board is labeled: > >"Emulex Corp QD2410401-02 rev F" > >It has 3 connectors and a DIP switch on the front plate. The >connectors appear to be of the SCSI-2 form factor. Has anyone >run across this critter before, or tried it with NetBSD? Come >to think of it, Is this even SCSI, or something else >entirely? Also, does anyone know where their might be some >on-line docs for it, or at least a description of the DIP switch settings... > >-thanks- >-al- >-acorda@1bigred.com > > > > From vance at ikickass.org Wed Oct 31 14:51:36 2001 From: vance at ikickass.org (One Without Reason) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:14 2005 Subject: SGI challenge L In-Reply-To: <200110311956.NAA04652@caesar.cs.umn.edu> Message-ID: I could definitely use some differential disk. But if they disappear, they disappear. I could probably use memory boards and modules too. Peace... Sridhar On Wed, 31 Oct 2001, Lawrence LeMay wrote: > Does anyone here have a SGI Challenge L? They're tossing a few that dont > work, so I might be able to get a small part or so if it is needed. There > are some hard drives, i'm told they are differential, but they probably > wont last long once the students start grabbing them (students dont > know what differential is anyways). > > -Lawrence LeMay > lemay@cs.umn.edu > From spedraja at ono.com Wed Oct 31 14:56:40 2001 From: spedraja at ono.com (SP) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:14 2005 Subject: Sharp PC-5000 for sale (early 1983 "laptop") update Message-ID: <019201c1624e$8a447d40$0301a8c0@margarita.spedraja.net> I'm actually centered in other adquisitions. If this wouldn't be so you can have no doubt about I should make a bid for it for some more money. Is a really pretty system. Greetings Sergio -----Mensaje original----- De: Vintage Computer Festival Para: Classic Computers Mailing List Fecha: mi?rcoles, 31 de octubre de 2001 21:21 Asunto: Re: Sharp PC-5000 for sale (early 1983 "laptop") update > >This is your last chance to submit an offer, otherwise this thing goes for >$77. > >I'm surprised there's not more interest in this. > >Oh well. > >---------- Forwarded message ---------- >Date: Sat, 27 Oct 2001 15:58:28 -0700 (PDT) >From: Vintage Computer Festival >To: Classic Computers Mailing List >Subject: Re: Sharp PC-5000 for sale (early 1983 "laptop") update > > >Someone's going to get a hell of a deal. Top offer so far is $77. > >I'm also throwing in the printer module with this: > >http://www.siconic.com/crap/sharp_t_printer.jpg > >This fits into the compartment on the top of the computer. > >> I have a new-in-box Sharp PC-5000 for sale at $350 or best offer by 6:00PM >> PST October 31st. That is, $350 takes it now (going by first received >> e-mail response); otherwise, it goes to the best offer under $350 that I >> receive by 6PM-10/31. Buyer pays shipping from zip code 94588. I am >> willing to ship internationally >> >> The Sharp PC-5000 is one of the very first clamshell style portables >> (later known as laptops) circa 1983. According to our own Uncle Roger, it >> even beat out the Gavilan. >> >> http://sinasohn.com/cgi-bin/clascomp/bldhtm.pl?computer=shp5000 >> >> This unit comes in the original box, with the original packing foam, is >> basically new, has the manuals and battery and power supply (everything >> that originally came with it), as well as a bubble memory carthridge. >> >> Photos: >> >> The Computer >> http://www.siconic.com/crap/sharp5000.jpg >> >> The Box >> http://www.siconic.com/crap/sharp_box.jpg >> >> The Manual >> http://www.siconic.com/crap/Sharp_us_g.jpg >> >> The Bubble Memory Module >> http://www.siconic.com/crap/Sharp_Bm_box.jpg >> >> Please reply directly to me at . If you have any >> questions, ask away! > >Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival >--------------------------------------------------------------------------- --- >International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org > > From cmcmanis at mcmanis.com Wed Oct 31 14:59:52 2001 From: cmcmanis at mcmanis.com (Chuck McManis) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:14 2005 Subject: Emulex Qbus Disk controller? (Need help identifying this one) In-Reply-To: <7B4C28C84831D211BFA200805F9F34561A8F14@nswcdlvaex04.nswc.n avy.mil> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20011031125600.02493d90@mcmanis.com> Search on Emulex QD24 and you'll be rewarded with the information that it is an Emulex MSCP ESDI disk controller. Which can be just as useful as a SCSI card since finding a couple of 300MB ESDI drives shouldn't be too hard. I think I've got a 170MB one laying about somewhere. Kirk Davis (kdb@ndx.net) mentioned he had some SCSI controllers he was thinking about trading for PDP-11 gear. Also I just missed a lot that had about 10 Dilog SCSI controllers on it at a local scrap/bid place (had I known I would have bid more than the $75 it went for :-() my interest was in the more mundane things like a couple of DSSI ID plugs and an external DSSI disk expansion box. --Chuck At 11:32 AM 10/31/01, you wrote: >I'm trying to bring up NetBSD on a Vax 4000/300, and so I'm >looking for a MSCP SCSI disk controller. After going through >my stack of Qbus boards (collected from hamfests, etc.) I came across >one that looks like it might be a SCSI controller... unfortunately, >I haven't been able to confirm it, since a google search turns up >very little on it (a bad sign...sigh) The board is labeled: > >"Emulex Corp QD2410401-02 rev F" > >It has 3 connectors and a DIP switch on the front plate. The >connectors appear to be of the SCSI-2 form factor. Has anyone >run across this critter before, or tried it with NetBSD? Come >to think of it, Is this even SCSI, or something else >entirely? Also, does anyone know where their might be some >on-line docs for it, or at least a description of the DIP switch settings... > >-thanks- >-al- >-acorda@1bigred.com From uban at ubanproductions.com Wed Oct 31 14:29:11 2001 From: uban at ubanproductions.com (Tom Uban) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:14 2005 Subject: Emulex Qbus Disk controller? (Need help identifying this one) Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.20011031142911.008aca90@ubanproductions.com> >From the Field Guide to Qbus and Unibus Modules: http://world.std.com/~mbg/pdp11-field-guide.txt It would appear that you have the following: QD24 Q Emulex ESDI disk controller. Emulates MSCP. For VAX 3500/3600 I'm not sure which one you really want, but it is probably in the Field Guide, possibly one of the UC controllers. --tom At 02:32 PM 10/31/01 -0500, you wrote: > >I'm trying to bring up NetBSD on a Vax 4000/300, and so I'm >looking for a MSCP SCSI disk controller. After going through >my stack of Qbus boards (collected from hamfests, etc.) I came across >one that looks like it might be a SCSI controller... unfortunately, >I haven't been able to confirm it, since a google search turns up >very little on it (a bad sign...sigh) The board is labeled: > >"Emulex Corp QD2410401-02 rev F" > >It has 3 connectors and a DIP switch on the front plate. The >connectors appear to be of the SCSI-2 form factor. Has anyone >run across this critter before, or tried it with NetBSD? Come >to think of it, Is this even SCSI, or something else >entirely? Also, does anyone know where their might be some >on-line docs for it, or at least a description of the DIP switch settings... > >-thanks- >-al- >-acorda@1bigred.com > > > > From gunther at aurora.regenstrief.org Wed Oct 31 15:12:21 2001 From: gunther at aurora.regenstrief.org (Gunther Schadow) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:14 2005 Subject: VAX 6400's futile attempts to booting Ultrix 4.1, still some progress ... References: Message-ID: <3BE06935.4FAC5EC4@aurora.regenstrief.org> Lord Isildur wrote: > > I can put up a vax/ultrix disk image somewhere ftp'able. > It'll be on cmuccvax in /usr3/open at some point, maybe today if i get some > time after work. Thanks Isildur. Could you also put all the 4.2 sources over on cmuccvax? I have copied the kernel sources last night, but not all of it. I'm assuming that there is a way to rebuild a complete file set for a tape from sources. Do you know? If so, I can make myself a 4.2 boot tape. thanks, -Gunther -- Gunther_Schadow-------------------------------http://aurora.rg.iupui.edu Regenstrief Institute for Health Care 1050 Wishard Blvd., Indianapolis IN 46202, Phone: (317) 630 7960 schadow@aurora.rg.iupui.edu------------------#include From CordaAJ at nswc.navy.mil Wed Oct 31 15:14:04 2001 From: CordaAJ at nswc.navy.mil (Corda Albert J DLVA) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:14 2005 Subject: SGI challenge L Message-ID: <7B4C28C84831D211BFA200805F9F34561A8F15@nswcdlvaex04.nswc.navy.mil> I could definitely use the following: 1. CPU board. 2. IO board. 3. Power Bricks. 4. Memory. -thanks- -al- -acorda@1bigred.com > -----Original Message----- > From: Lawrence LeMay [mailto:lemay@cs.umn.edu] > Sent: Wednesday, October 31, 2001 2:57 PM > To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org > Subject: SGI challenge L > > > Does anyone here have a SGI Challenge L? They're tossing a > few that dont > work, so I might be able to get a small part or so if it is > needed. There > are some hard drives, i'm told they are differential, but > they probably > wont last long once the students start grabbing them (students dont > know what differential is anyways). > > -Lawrence LeMay > lemay@cs.umn.edu > From mrfusion at umbar.vaxpower.org Wed Oct 31 15:19:20 2001 From: mrfusion at umbar.vaxpower.org (Lord Isildur) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:14 2005 Subject: VAX 6400's futile attempts to booting Ultrix 4.1, still some progress ... In-Reply-To: <3BE06935.4FAC5EC4@aurora.regenstrief.org> Message-ID: hello, the 4.2 sources are on cmuccvax, in /usr2/dec-source/ultrix4.2 i dont know the details involved in making an ultrix boot tape.. The filesystem ill put up an image of will be a 4.4/vax install... i suppose if one had the special kernel (well, to get / from tape) and the tape boot blocks, and knew what had to go into that / filesystem image, etc, one could make the boto tape from an ultrix environment, or certainly from the sources, or maybe even from a boot cd (i have a 4.4/vax cd).. isildur On Wed, 31 Oct 2001, Gunther Schadow wrote: > Thanks Isildur. Could you also put all the 4.2 sources over on > cmuccvax? I have copied the kernel sources last night, but > not all of it. I'm assuming that there is a way to rebuild a > complete file set for a tape from sources. Do you know? If so, > I can make myself a 4.2 boot tape. From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Oct 31 15:07:56 2001 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:14 2005 Subject: Intel 8085 In-Reply-To: <00a701c161d9$ce21be80$eeb1b2d1@Smith.earthlink.net> from "Wayne M. Smith" at Oct 30, 1 11:01:02 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 653 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20011031/b42f184f/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Oct 31 14:54:10 2001 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:14 2005 Subject: hard-sector 5 1/4 disk In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20011030165838.0317d450@mail.zipcon.net> from "Geoff Reed" at Oct 30, 1 04:59:28 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 444 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20011031/04bf1cda/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Oct 31 15:01:45 2001 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:14 2005 Subject: hard-sector 5 1/4 disk In-Reply-To: <003401c161af$bbcc8b40$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> from "Richard Erlacher" at Oct 30, 1 06:59:53 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1012 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20011031/a964f2db/attachment.ksh From cmcmanis at mcmanis.com Wed Oct 31 15:49:08 2001 From: cmcmanis at mcmanis.com (Chuck McManis) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:14 2005 Subject: CPU design at the gate level In-Reply-To: <3BE05F4A.5421ECF@jetnet.ab.ca> References: <3BDF8862.CEE9887D@jetnet.ab.ca> <002301c161e6$9cb89780$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> <5.1.0.14.0.20011031085310.00ac3b10@mcmanis.com> <5.1.0.14.0.20011031110107.02467890@mcmanis.com> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20011031134250.024a1a40@mcmanis.com> At 12:30 PM 10/31/01, Ben wrote: >I used a PDP-8/e and a PDP-S all in one BOX computers. :) >It is hard to get use to several meg of bits in a 8 bit package when you >still remember using core memory. However the bits in the FPGA simply represent wires in the PDP-8 and where you had a couple million millimeters of wire in a PDP-8 system you have less than 100 mm of wire in an FPGA system. Don't confuse the configuration bits with actual memory, they are routing resources, and there were just as many in the PDP-8, only the ones on the PDP-8 are etched into circuit boards. That doesn't mean they didn't exist however in the form of drawings on Gordon Bell's and others tables. DTL -> TTL -> LSI -> FPGA, the gates are the same, just the wires got smaller and the way one manipulates them changed. (wire wrap -> copper traces -> silicon traces -> data bits) --Chuck From CordaAJ at nswc.navy.mil Wed Oct 31 16:18:23 2001 From: CordaAJ at nswc.navy.mil (Corda Albert J DLVA) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:14 2005 Subject: Emulex Qbus Disk controller? (Wiring diagram for connectors?) Message-ID: <7B4C28C84831D211BFA200805F9F34561A8F17@nswcdlvaex04.nswc.navy.mil> Thanks! I believe I have a couple of ESDI drives hanging around from one of my SGI 4D/70 behemoths.... I've done another quick deja search and, while it's confirmed the ESDIness of the controller, There doesn't seem to be any info out there as far as the DIP switch, and pinouts for the connectors. (I also checked a few other sites I know of that have scanned DEC manuals, but no luck... anyone know of a site with a scanned manual for this critter?) If I remember correctly, ESDI has a MFM-like interconnect with separate control and data cables. The control cable daisy-chains across the drives, while the data cables star out from the controller to each drive. Since my controller has 3 connectors, I would guess that it probably supports 2 drives (one connector driving the control cable, and one data connector for each of two drives) What I don't know is the pinouts for the connectors on the controller (since all 3 connectors appear to be identical in size and SCSI-2 form factor) does anyone have a clue as to the connector assignments and wiring pattern? I can possibly hack a couple of SCSI2 cables to make a viable adaptor... -thanks- -al- -acorda@1bigred.com > -----Original Message----- > From: Chuck McManis [mailto:cmcmanis@mcmanis.com] > Sent: Wednesday, October 31, 2001 4:00 PM > To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org > Subject: Re: Emulex Qbus Disk controller? (Need help identifying this > one) > > > Search on Emulex QD24 and you'll be rewarded with the > information that it > is an Emulex MSCP ESDI disk controller. Which can be just as > useful as a > SCSI card since finding a couple of 300MB ESDI drives > shouldn't be too > hard. I think I've got a 170MB one laying about somewhere. > Kirk Davis (kdb@ndx.net) mentioned he had some SCSI > controllers he was > thinking about trading for PDP-11 gear. Also I just missed a > lot that had > about 10 Dilog SCSI controllers on it at a local scrap/bid > place (had I > known I would have bid more than the $75 it went for :-() my > interest was > in the more mundane things like a couple of DSSI ID plugs and > an external > DSSI disk expansion box. > > --Chuck > > At 11:32 AM 10/31/01, you wrote: > > >I'm trying to bring up NetBSD on a Vax 4000/300, and so I'm > >looking for a MSCP SCSI disk controller. After going through > >my stack of Qbus boards (collected from hamfests, etc.) I came across > >one that looks like it might be a SCSI controller... unfortunately, > >I haven't been able to confirm it, since a google search turns up > >very little on it (a bad sign...sigh) The board is labeled: > > > >"Emulex Corp QD2410401-02 rev F" > > > >It has 3 connectors and a DIP switch on the front plate. The > >connectors appear to be of the SCSI-2 form factor. Has anyone > >run across this critter before, or tried it with NetBSD? Come > >to think of it, Is this even SCSI, or something else > >entirely? Also, does anyone know where their might be some > >on-line docs for it, or at least a description of the DIP > switch settings... > > > >-thanks- > >-al- > >-acorda@1bigred.com > From foo at siconic.com Wed Oct 31 16:16:53 2001 From: foo at siconic.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:14 2005 Subject: hard-sector 5 1/4 disk In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Wed, 31 Oct 2001, Tony Duell wrote: > The disk II has no track 0 sensor either, hence the clatter against > the end stop when the machine is turned on. This, in my experience, > doesn't help keep the heads in alignment.... I don't think I've ever had any Apple disk drive of mine go out of alignment. > The Apple ][ disk system has always struck me as being a cheap kludge. Exactly. It was cheap, it was fast (if the DOS was designed properly), it worked, and it worked well. Very well. > We've had this flame before, but my views have not changed. Sure, it > was minimal hardware. Sure it got more data on a disk than an FM > controller (but less IIRC than an MFM one). But I like to be able to > read that data back again, and I had nothing but trouble with the > Apple ][. You and Richard should start a support group for each other. Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org From vcf at vintage.org Wed Oct 31 16:20:51 2001 From: vcf at vintage.org (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:14 2005 Subject: TRS-80 Model 4P needs new home Message-ID: Sue Beck of Concord, Massachusetts, has a TRS-80 Model 4P that needs to find a new home. Please contact her directly. Reply-to: Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org From edick at idcomm.com Wed Oct 31 16:29:50 2001 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:14 2005 Subject: hard-sector 5 1/4 disk References: Message-ID: <002f01c1625b$8e603420$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> The way I seem to remember it is that, back then, we were amazed when things worked, rather than being irked when they didn't. Apple's attitude was clearl, though, and that was that if your data really mattered, you'd certainly use a computer and not an Apple. The Apple wasn't designed from the ground up as a computing machine, but rather as a video toy (not in the disparaging sense) on the order of the several other video games of the time, which, coincidentally could also do some computing. Apple's approach was that if people were willing to buy an Apple and then use it for useful work, they'd try to charge as much as they possibly could, since the overall cost ostensibly would be low initially, and then they'd make their money on the disk drives, (where they had some real margin) and other add-ons that it took to convert the Apple into a computer capable of doing useful work. What makes all this crystal clear is that if I fire up an Apple today, it still does all the stupid disk-subsystem-related crap it did back then, only, by now, nobody would even think of putting up with that. Back then, it was about par for the course, but it wouldn't last a week in today's environment. Dick ----- Original Message ----- From: "Sellam Ismail" To: Sent: Wednesday, October 31, 2001 9:34 AM Subject: Re: hard-sector 5 1/4 disk > On Wed, 31 Oct 2001, Richard Erlacher wrote: > > > It's not pilot error that causes the Apple disk subsystem to fall > > apart whenever there's the slightest error, it's the "we've got your > > money now, so we've got you by the short and curly" attitude that > > Apple has always had with respet to their customers' data. That > > design of WOZ's was clever and cheap, ... REALLY cheap ... , but not > > terribly reliable. Back in the early '80's I didn't know a single > > user of the genuine Apple disk subsystem that didn't have a data loss > > per hour in steady use. The guy I mentioned initially had phone-order > > You must have had some very unlucky friends. If everyone had this same > experience then there probably would not have been millions of Apple disk > systems sold. > > > business, and, because his environment was not perfectly clean, he was > > constantly having to reboot his Apple, since it couldn't recover from > > a disk read error, and this was before he had a toll-free number. > > Sounds like shitty software to me. > > > I remember how people whined about the PC's error > > message for disk errors, yet Apple didn't even have one. It just went > > TILT. > > No it didn't. > > > Even back in those days we'd all come to expect better than that, and, > > by the way, the whole problem was exxentially gone if one used 8" > > FDD's with the SVA controller. > > How did that fix bad software with poorly designed error recovery? > > Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ > International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org > > From edick at idcomm.com Wed Oct 31 16:34:13 2001 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:14 2005 Subject: CPU design at the gate level References: <3BDF8862.CEE9887D@jetnet.ab.ca> <002301c161e6$9cb89780$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> <5.1.0.14.0.20011031085310.00ac3b10@mcmanis.com> Message-ID: <003d01c1625c$2ca1d080$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> see below, plz. Dick ----- Original Message ----- From: "Chuck McManis" To: Sent: Wednesday, October 31, 2001 9:55 AM Subject: Re: CPU design at the gate level > At 08:15 AM 10/31/01, Ben wrote: > >That is true there is baggage.My two gripes today are > > > >1) No bootstrapping a minimal system in hardware & software - you need > >everything to run. > > Take a page from Classic computers as I did and put a dedicated "console > processor" on the front of your FPGA. I've got a board for doing a "soft" > robot CPU that I hope to get to after BattleBots that has a PIC chip (small > single chip MCU) as the console processor. It loads the main CPU from > either serial EEPROM or from a serial line into the FPGA on power up, > sequences the power, and provides the diagnostic interface when things go > strangely. > This is too technical an approach, even for today's engineers. People want the "thing" to run when they put in the batteries. > > >2) Non serviceable equipment and docs. > That's because there's nothing to service and nobody to do it. Forget the doc's. Today's engineering grad's know just which buttons to push, but can't read and write. It's a skill set that died over the past generation. When was the last time you got a manual that told you anything with a piece of hardware? > > This is truly a pain. > > --Chuck > > From allain at panix.com Wed Oct 31 16:37:54 2001 From: allain at panix.com (John Allain) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:14 2005 Subject: CPU design at the gate level References: <3BDF8862.CEE9887D@jetnet.ab.ca><002301c161e6$9cb89780$9cc762d8@idcomm.com><5.1.0.14.0.20011031085310.00ac3b10@mcmanis.com><5.1.0.14.0.20011031110107.02467890@mcmanis.com> <5.1.0.14.0.20011031134250.024a1a40@mcmanis.com> Message-ID: <001101c1625c$aec76160$8a0101ac@ibm23xhr06> Chuck said: > DTL -> TTL -> LSI -> FPGA Sure I'm familliar with the concept, but only from an overview standpoint. Just what is it with DTL vs TTL anyway? Why didn't they use TTL from the start? Was it a eureka genius thing or did it take advanced transistors to make it possible? A quick answer would suffice, we got too much bandwith as it is. John A (software guy) This question for me dates back to the early 80's From edick at idcomm.com Wed Oct 31 16:47:52 2001 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:14 2005 Subject: hard-sector 5 1/4 disk References: Message-ID: <006501c1625e$12e48aa0$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> While I always liked the 6502, and while I admired the Apple people's inclination to use software to do what others did with hardware, I never liked the fact that they (Apple) were always happy to compromise on both performance and reliability, even on much more recent hardware, e.g. the early MAC's, in order to make money. They routinely left out lostf of hardware, using firmware or software to replace it, resulting in lower CPU throughput, yet charged more than their competitors who put the hardware "in there" and delivered the performance. What's really odd is that their customers were so devoted, if not sensible, that they bought the stuff anyway. My position was vindicated when, at a BIG company where I once worked, I put a PC/AT-clone, a NIC (they were expensive then), an HP LaserJet printer, and a graphics card with a companion high-res monitor together for considerably le$$ than just a MAC-comaptible printer would have cost. By having the IT guys work out a route from the MACs to the PC/AT, we were all able to share that printer, though the Apple networking hardware/software made it non-trivial. They liked to use the latest greatest hardware at Apple, but they quickly turned the silk purse into a sow's ear with their practice of giving away 90% of performance and convenience in order to save 1% in cost. When they were done, they charged for the silk purse, you can be sure, but still delivered the sow's ear. Dick ----- Original Message ----- From: "Sellam Ismail" To: Sent: Wednesday, October 31, 2001 3:16 PM Subject: Re: hard-sector 5 1/4 disk > On Wed, 31 Oct 2001, Tony Duell wrote: > > > The disk II has no track 0 sensor either, hence the clatter against > > the end stop when the machine is turned on. This, in my experience, > > doesn't help keep the heads in alignment.... > > I don't think I've ever had any Apple disk drive of mine go out of > alignment. > > > The Apple ][ disk system has always struck me as being a cheap kludge. > > Exactly. It was cheap, it was fast (if the DOS was designed properly), it > worked, and it worked well. Very well. > > > We've had this flame before, but my views have not changed. Sure, it > > was minimal hardware. Sure it got more data on a disk than an FM > > controller (but less IIRC than an MFM one). But I like to be able to > > read that data back again, and I had nothing but trouble with the > > Apple ][. > > You and Richard should start a support group for each other. > > Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ > International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org > > From UberTechnoid at home.com Wed Oct 31 16:51:56 2001 From: UberTechnoid at home.com (UberTechnoid@home.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:14 2005 Subject: hard-sector 5 1/4 disk In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20011031225503.QFBP28108.femail14.sdc1.sfba.home.com@BENCHBOX> The Rana1000 disk drive made for Apple and Atari 8bits also had no track zero sensor. It used a simple timeing scheme to ensure the head HAS to be at track zero by now..... The knocked themselves out of alignment constantly. I think Commodore 8-bit drives like the 1541 also had no zero sensor right? The Atari 8-bit drives all had them that I can recall, Percom, Indus, Trak, etc. Regards, Jeff In , on 10/31/01 at 02:16 PM, Sellam Ismail said: >> The disk II has no track 0 sensor either, hence the clatter against >> the end stop when the machine is turned on. This, in my experience, >> doesn't help keep the heads in alignment.... -- ----------------------------------------------------------- Jeffrey S. Worley Asheville, NC USA 828-6984887 UberTechnoid@Home.com ----------------------------------------------------------- From edick at idcomm.com Wed Oct 31 16:59:55 2001 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:14 2005 Subject: CPU design at the gate level References: <3BDF8862.CEE9887D@jetnet.ab.ca><002301c161e6$9cb89780$9cc762d8@idcomm.com><5.1.0.14.0.20011031085310.00ac3b10@mcmanis.com><5.1.0.14.0.20011031110107.02467890@mcmanis.com> <5.1.0.14.0.20011031134250.024a1a40@mcmanis.com> <001101c1625c$aec76160$8a0101ac@ibm23xhr06> Message-ID: <007101c1625f$c1cae7c0$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> Simple circuits in DTL were cheap and easy to manufacture. As the speed and density went up, the cost went up, but not so much with TTL as with DTL. Apparently there were lots of reasons for this, but I never had much interest in DTL, so I have to plead ignorance. My early TTL databooks are dated in the early '70's, and DTL came before then. Dick ----- Original Message ----- From: "John Allain" To: Sent: Wednesday, October 31, 2001 3:37 PM Subject: Re: CPU design at the gate level > Chuck said: > > DTL -> TTL -> LSI -> FPGA > > Sure I'm familliar with the concept, but only from > an overview standpoint. Just what is it with DTL vs > TTL anyway? Why didn't they use TTL from the > start? Was it a eureka genius thing or did it take > advanced transistors to make it possible? > A quick answer would suffice, we got too much > bandwith as it is. > > John A (software guy) > This question for me dates back to the early 80's > > > > > From pcw at mesanet.com Wed Oct 31 17:13:10 2001 From: pcw at mesanet.com (Peter C. Wallace) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:14 2005 Subject: CPU design at the gate level In-Reply-To: <001101c1625c$aec76160$8a0101ac@ibm23xhr06> Message-ID: On Wed, 31 Oct 2001, John Allain wrote: > Chuck said: > > DTL -> TTL -> LSI -> FPGA Hey where's RTL? 914's, 923's etc etc > > Sure I'm familliar with the concept, but only from > an overview standpoint. Just what is it with DTL vs > TTL anyway? Why didn't they use TTL from the > start? Was it a eureka genius thing or did it take > advanced transistors to make it possible? > A quick answer would suffice, we got too much > bandwith as it is. I suspect TTL was harder to fabricate There was non-integrated RTL and DTL logic before ICs not sure about non integrated TTL... > > John A (software guy) > This question for me dates back to the early 80's > > > > > Peter Wallace From jhellige at earthlink.net Wed Oct 31 17:21:49 2001 From: jhellige at earthlink.net (Jeff Hellige) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:14 2005 Subject: hard-sector 5 1/4 disk In-Reply-To: <20011031225503.QFBP28108.femail14.sdc1.sfba.home.com@BENCHBOX> References: <20011031225503.QFBP28108.femail14.sdc1.sfba.home.com@BENCHBOX> Message-ID: >The Atari 8-bit drives all had them that I can recall, Percom, Indus, >Trak, etc. The Indus GT was one nice drive and they made it for other machines than just the Atari line. It was interesting to sit there and listen to it while watching the track readout change. I've never torn one apart to check but I'm told that they used a Z80 in the drive to control everything which would be interesting since that'd make the chip in the drive as powerful as the main CPU of the machine it was attached to. Jeff -- Home of the TRS-80 Model 2000 FAQ File http://www.cchaven.com http://www.geocities.com/siliconvalley/lakes/6757 From jhellige at earthlink.net Wed Oct 31 17:38:29 2001 From: jhellige at earthlink.net (Jeff Hellige) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:14 2005 Subject: hard-sector 5 1/4 disk In-Reply-To: <006501c1625e$12e48aa0$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> References: <006501c1625e$12e48aa0$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> Message-ID: >While I always liked the 6502, and while I admired the Apple people's >inclination to use software to do what others did with hardware, I never liked >the fact that they (Apple) were always happy to compromise on both performance >and reliability, even on much more recent hardware, e.g. the early MAC's, in >order to make money. They routinely left out lostf of hardware, >using firmware >or software to replace it, resulting in lower CPU throughput, yet charged more >than their competitors who put the hardware "in there" and delivered the >performance. I can appreciate a good minimalistic approach to something and I used to look at the compact Macs as little more than expensive toys, but Apple has shown on numerous occasions that it isn't afraid to go out on a limb in order to push the technology further. They've had, and continue to have, some revolutionary ideas but at the same time they've also had their share of huge flops. Macs in the mid-90's were horrendous in a lot of respects, which is why the company nearly went under. It was being run for the sake of the almighty $$$ return, as you already mentioned. Now it's to the point where everyone expects Jobs to introduce something huge at each Mac Expo. Few companies have managed the turn around Apple did, much less tech. companies. They go by a totally different set of rules and ideas than the machine assemblers such as Dell and Gateway. As for performance, there's more to it than just the clock speed numbers. There's not been a thing yet I've tossed at this G3/450 that it couldn't do, including all the emulation of various machines I like to try. BTW, on a different note, I've finally finished rebuilding my Amiga 3000! It's even on our LAN and working great! Jeff -- Home of the TRS-80 Model 2000 FAQ File http://www.cchaven.com http://www.geocities.com/siliconvalley/lakes/6757 From emu at ecubics.com Wed Oct 31 17:51:12 2001 From: emu at ecubics.com (emanuel stiebler) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:14 2005 Subject: Emulex Qbus Disk controller? (Wiring diagram for connectors?) References: <7B4C28C84831D211BFA200805F9F34561A8F17@nswcdlvaex04.nswc.navy.mil> Message-ID: <3BE08E70.B62EDD48@ecubics.com> Corda Albert J DLVA wrote: > I've done another quick deja search and, while it's confirmed > the ESDIness of the controller, There doesn't seem to be > any info out there as far as the DIP switch, and pinouts > for the connectors. (I also checked a few other sites I > know of that have scanned DEC manuals, but no luck... anyone > know of a site with a scanned manual for this critter?) check again, and look this time for qd21. I hope they are close to each other, and it would help you set up this thing & get to the internal diag software cheers From geoffr at zipcon.net Wed Oct 31 17:54:32 2001 From: geoffr at zipcon.net (Geoff Reed) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:14 2005 Subject: Apple II accelerator and Micromodem II questions In-Reply-To: <3BDFDCD9.15314.55B54D@localhost> References: <3BDFCD55.6487.19152C@localhost> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20011031155356.02750040@mail.zipcon.net> when someone gets a coupler, why not open it up and make a schematic for the beastie so those with the cards and no couplers acan construct one for themselves? At 11:13 AM 10/31/01 -0600, you wrote: >On 31 Oct 2001, at 8:39, Sellam Ismail wrote: > > It isn't. This modem was made in the days when you weren't allowed to > >Damn, figures. > > > I run across the couplers occasionally. The next time I see one I'll > > grab it for you. > >That would be great! Thanks. > >----- > "What is, is what?" > > "When the mind is free of any thought or judgement, > then and only then can we know things as they are." > >David Williams - Computer Packrat >dlw@trailingedge.com >http://www.trailingedge.com From oliv555 at arrl.net Wed Oct 31 18:17:40 2001 From: oliv555 at arrl.net (no) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:14 2005 Subject: DELUA/DELQA needed, trade.... Message-ID: <3BE094A4.336D9A2B@arrl.net> I am in need of the aforementioned ethernet cards; possible trade items I have are KFQSA (skunk), KLESI-(Q), M9312's, RXV21, RA70, RA73 or .... -nick oliviero From greg at cosc.canterbury.ac.nz Wed Oct 31 18:40:11 2001 From: greg at cosc.canterbury.ac.nz (Greg Ewing) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:14 2005 Subject: CPU design at the gate level In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <200111010040.NAA09521@s454.cosc.canterbury.ac.nz> "Peter C. Wallace" : > There was non-integrated RTL and DTL logic before ICs not sure about non > integrated TTL... I don't think non-integrated TTL is even possible using standard parts. It relies on multiple-emitter transistors, and I've never heard of anyone making those available discretely. Greg Ewing, Computer Science Dept, +--------------------------------------+ University of Canterbury, | A citizen of NewZealandCorp, a | Christchurch, New Zealand | wholly-owned subsidiary of USA Inc. | greg@cosc.canterbury.ac.nz +--------------------------------------+ From foo at siconic.com Wed Oct 31 18:41:58 2001 From: foo at siconic.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:14 2005 Subject: hard-sector 5 1/4 disk In-Reply-To: <002f01c1625b$8e603420$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> Message-ID: On Wed, 31 Oct 2001, Richard Erlacher wrote: > What makes all this crystal clear is that if I fire up an Apple today, > it still does all the stupid disk-subsystem-related crap it did back > then, only, by now, nobody would even think of putting up with that. > Back then, it was about par for the course, but it wouldn't last a > week in today's environment. Dick, I have my old Apple //e sitting behind me set up on a desk. I will fire it up from time to time for various reasons both nostalgic and practical. If I go to access files on my diskettes, they are still there, and they read fine. Old video games I play from time to time load fine. If there was ever a major problem as you describe with the disk system on the Apple ][, I along with several thousand other Apple ][ enthusiasts, would not have large collections of old Apple ][ disks that we still use to this day. If all PCs up and died today (say Bill Gates planted some super nasty secret bug that made all PCs explode because we refused to give him our first borns) I could go back to my Apple //e, where I would write and save and load documents, work on spreadsheets stored on disk, download and upload files to and from disk over a modem, play games from disk, etc. Everything I could do on my PC, only a little slower and without nearly as many crashes, but the fact is, it would work. I'm not going to argue with the experience you had. It sounds like you had the worst luck of anyone I've ever known. You may want to consider investing in a rabbit's foot. But your experience is certainly not typical. I'd describe it as ultra-super-rare. And I think from this point you should describe any opinion you have of the Apple Disk ][ system as just that--YOUR OPINION. Then I won't have to respond to your messages ;) Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org From foo at siconic.com Wed Oct 31 18:44:49 2001 From: foo at siconic.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:14 2005 Subject: hard-sector 5 1/4 disk In-Reply-To: <006501c1625e$12e48aa0$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> Message-ID: On Wed, 31 Oct 2001, Richard Erlacher wrote: > They liked to use the latest greatest hardware at Apple, but they > quickly turned the silk purse into a sow's ear with their practice of > giving away 90% of performance and convenience in order to save 1% in > cost. When they were done, they charged for the silk purse, you can > be sure, but still delivered the sow's ear. Apparently there was some value in what they sold because people bought it, and Apple is still around (they're hanging on, thanks to Jobs...love him or hate him, he saved the company). Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org From foo at siconic.com Wed Oct 31 18:47:18 2001 From: foo at siconic.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:14 2005 Subject: Apple II accelerator and Micromodem II questions In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20011031155356.02750040@mail.zipcon.net> Message-ID: On Wed, 31 Oct 2001, Geoff Reed wrote: > when someone gets a coupler, why not open it up and make a schematic > for the beastie so those with the cards and no couplers acan construct > one for themselves? I'll send one of mine to someone who is far more competent in this area to do just that. Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org From optimus at canit.se Tue Oct 30 22:09:16 2001 From: optimus at canit.se (Iggy Drougge) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:14 2005 Subject: hard-sector 5 1/4 disk In-Reply-To: <20011030222403.RZGN24867.femail9.sdc1.sfba.home.com@BENCHBOX> Message-ID: <551.704T800T3094085optimus@canit.se> UberTechnoid skrev: >I recall the Amiga having a high-density external disk addon that ran at >1/2 speed so Commodore wouldn't have to include a faster fdd controller >chip. The bad news. The good news is that it worked on all Amiga >machines right out of the box. As I and Ethan Dicks stated last week. ;-) To be nit-picky, the Commodore drive was internal, mounted in late A3000s and all A4000s. Any external mechanisms were third-party. -- En ligne avec Thor 2.6a. Ky?suke: Jag heter Kurre, Kurre Carlsson! Jag: Det heter du inte alls! From optimus at canit.se Tue Oct 30 22:13:39 2001 From: optimus at canit.se (Iggy Drougge) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:14 2005 Subject: hard-sector 5 1/4 disk In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <959.704T1950T3135843optimus@canit.se> XenoSoft skrev: >On Tue, 30 Oct 2001 UberTechnoid@home.com wrote: >> I recall the Amiga having a high-density external disk addon that ran at >> 1/2 speed so Commodore wouldn't have to include a faster fdd controller >> chip. The bad news. The good news is that it worked on all Amiga >> machines right out of the box. >How was reliability for it? The Weltec half speed 1.2M 5.25" did NOT work >well. First of all, they're /slow/. There is also a problem arising due to their slow rotation speeds. They get clogged up quite easily, so running a cleaning disk once or twice a year is really necessary to prolong the lifespan of your expensive HD mechanism. >> And then there are these freaky 3" disks I have for an Amstrad I once >> owned..... >Nice, aren't they? But why al that extra space? The disc can't be oval, so why the rectangular case? -- En ligne avec Thor 2.6a. Amiga 4000/040 25MHz/64MB/20GB RetinaBLTZ3/VLab/FastlaneZ3/Ariadne/Toccata From optimus at canit.se Tue Oct 30 22:38:06 2001 From: optimus at canit.se (Iggy Drougge) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:14 2005 Subject: Classic Gaming OT and OT / Re: OT: Playstation 2 opinion? In-Reply-To: <20011030162448.B6326@eskimo.eskimo.com> Message-ID: <1165.704T300T3383993optimus@canit.se> Derek Peschel skrev: >On Tue, Oct 30, 2001 at 11:21:09PM +0100, Iggy Drougge wrote: >> gwynp skrev: >> >> >On 30-Oct-2001 Iggy Drougge wrote: >> >> I certainly get games and consoles whenever I can. My main interest in >> >> old computers revolves around games, sound and graphics. A computer with >> >> just an RS-232 connection to the outside world just isn't as >> >> interesting, IMO. >> >> >Hunt the Wumpus? Rogue? Zork? >> >> OLMasken! Fire! Bilspel! >I need some more explanation here... BBS games from the nineties. OLMasken is a "worm" game, Fire is like the Game and Watch game where you have to save people from a burning house. Bilspel is a marvelous little racing game. All run in a terminal emulator. =) I suppose some people here have run Hack'n'Slash or Global War, too. But such novelties aside, I'd rather have bitmapped (or vector =) graphics and some channels of sound. -- En ligne avec Thor 2.6a. Gillar man porr..v?ld kvinno f?rnedring...och en massa onda handlingar s? ?r det filmen f?r dig....sj?lv vet jag inte..har sett 1-3......samtidigt som jag avskyr dem s? ?r det ?nd? s? n?tt magiskt bakom dem... Eric B om Urotsukid?ji From optimus at canit.se Tue Oct 30 22:42:12 2001 From: optimus at canit.se (Iggy Drougge) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:14 2005 Subject: hard-sector 5 1/4 disk In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <376.704T600T3424209optimus@canit.se> XenoSoft skrev: >> Commodore, for one, on their older low density drives. >Commodore, like Apple, was COMPLETELY soft-sector - it ignored the index >pulse COMPLETELY, and therefore would work with hard-sector, soft-sector, >upside down (with write enable notch), ... It seems as though anything which isn't MFM is assumed to be hard-sector. =/ -- En ligne avec Thor 2.6a. From optimus at canit.se Wed Oct 31 18:11:30 2001 From: optimus at canit.se (Iggy Drougge) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:14 2005 Subject: VLB SCSI? In-Reply-To: <3BDF8AF0.AA8F1DAF@internet1.net> Message-ID: <740.705T1500T715541optimus@canit.se> Chad Fernandez skrev: Oh great, another top-quoter... >Why is it annoying? I like EISA. The SCSI card selection is lots >better than Microchannel, another one of my favorite PC buses. What I dislike about either system is that it's so awfully software-based. IMO you can't really can't call MCA or EISA plug'n'play. That entire business with reference partitions (my own Prosignia is dormant since I overwrote its "BIOS" while installing OpenBSD), ADFs and config files is not much more elegant than jumpers. Yes, EISA had a good selection of SCSI. And the PC has a good selection of software. That's no reason to like either, though. ;-) -- En ligne avec Thor 2.6a. Life begins at '030. Fun begins at '040. Impotence begins at '86. From optimus at canit.se Wed Oct 31 18:37:17 2001 From: optimus at canit.se (Iggy Drougge) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:14 2005 Subject: Ecomstation.org (was Re: An Organization (was: Do we have a VAX organization?)) In-Reply-To: <20011031062930.NRFS25512.femail21.sdc1.sfba.home.com@BENCHBOX> Message-ID: <411.705T850T974599optimus@canit.se> UberTechnoid skrev: >Check out http://www.ecomstation.org as an example of a website supporting >an operating system on an architecture. I was pretty impressed (but then >I'm an OS/2 user) :-) [BIG snip!] Jeff, and the other participants in the list, is it really necessary to quote 250 lines to add three of your own? And on the top, at that. BTW, a similar site is amiga.tm. -- En ligne avec Thor 2.6a. From millerbj at umich.edu Wed Oct 31 19:21:19 2001 From: millerbj at umich.edu (Blair J. Miller) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:14 2005 Subject: And the winner is... Message-ID: <00ef01c16273$8300bfb0$2ed0d58d@fluffy> Chad Fernandez As promised, I waited until Wednesday. Chad was among the first to email me, and he happens to live right on my way home to good ol' Nashville (or Vermontville, take your pick) - thank all things holy I grew up in Chicago. Thanks for playing everyone. Blair From spectre at stockholm.ptloma.edu Wed Oct 31 19:44:00 2001 From: spectre at stockholm.ptloma.edu (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:14 2005 Subject: hard-sector 5 1/4 disk In-Reply-To: from Jeff Hellige at "Oct 31, 1 06:21:49 pm" Message-ID: <200111010144.RAA05008@stockholm.ptloma.edu> > >The Atari 8-bit drives all had them that I can recall, Percom, Indus, > >Trak, etc. > > The Indus GT was one nice drive and they made it for other > machines than just the Atari line. I have one for my C64 and it's a nice, quiet and slick-looking disk drive. It can really heat up, though. :-/ -- ----------------------------- personal page: http://www.armory.com/~spectre/ -- Cameron Kaiser, Point Loma Nazarene University * ckaiser@stockholm.ptloma.edu -- For every credibility gap, there is a gullibility fill. -- R. Clopton ------ From UberTechnoid at home.com Wed Oct 31 19:33:36 2001 From: UberTechnoid at home.com (UberTechnoid@home.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:14 2005 Subject: FloppyPUter was re:Hard-sector 51/4 disk In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20011101020609.PNYH2463.femail42.sdc1.sfba.home.com@BENCHBOX> In , on 10/31/01 at 06:21 PM, Jeff Hellige said: > The Indus GT was one nice drive and they made it for other machines >than just the Atari line. It was interesting to sit there and listen to >it while watching the track readout change. I've never torn one apart >to check but I'm told that they used a Z80 in the drive to control >everything which would be interesting since that'd make the chip in the >drive as powerful as the main CPU of the machine it was attached to. Either you knew something about this allready and forgot or are just darn smart. The Indus GT disk drive was made for; of course the Atari8bit, and I think the Apple II and C64 machines. The same company that made the Indus is the company that made the Rana1000. I know this because the drives are allmost identical including the shells. Rana Systems became Indus which later became Future Systems. The Indus GT had a non-standard, belt-driven 1/2 height mechanism. Allmost all the electronics driving the mech were located on the Indus controller board mounted beneath. The controller had it's OWN Z-80 processor and some ram. I think something like 2k. You could add a 64k CP/M adapter card to a pinedge connector on the controller. I never saw this board in person, but that it existed at least in proto form is certain. Later Indus and Future systems GT's omitted the cp/m board connector but the pads were still there. There was quite a bit of talk about it back in the day. An Indus owner could get CP/M without having to buy an ATR8000 to do it. I think the Indus CP/M module was going to cost something like $149.00 - $199.00 vs a 64k ATR8000 at $400.00 plus. A couple of things about this drive that would have made it a pretty poor performer as a CP/M machine: The mech was non-standard, single-sided, MFM/FM meaning that disk interchangability would be interesting ( it allways was anyway right guys ). Unless the CP/M card also extended the drive's ability to use standard mechs as slaves then it wouldn't really be able to compete with the ATR or that other similar CP/M interface for the Atari. I've owned several Indus and Rana drives. The Rana wasn't too reliable due to alignment problems (no trk0 sensor) and because it just had trouble reading it's own data even on a good day. The Indus GT had a track 0 sensor but had similar trouble reading it's own data. Frankly, I think the Atari 810, and 1050 were the only bulletproof drives made for the Atari 8 bits. I've owned four or five ATR8000's, two Percom double-density drives, three Rana 1000's, three Indus GT's, several 810's, several 1050's, and a couple of XF551's. After years of dinking with hopes of reliable storage from the third-party drives, I archived all my disks using my USDoubler 1050. I never filed a disk in it's box that was formatted or written with any other drive because I couldn't trust them. I ran my bbs on the ATR and/or the Percom with four 80trk DS/DD mechs because I didn't have any other mass storage solution to do it on. Most Atari software is on SS/SD disks anyway so the 1050 could do the job without a problem. BTW, the XF551 wasn't much better than the Percom or the ATR for reliable data retreival. Come to think, why is this? Why is it so hard to make a reliable disk drive? My Percom with a new rom/daugtercard from the company and new Newtronics mechs just sucked. The 1050 with the USDoubler, the SuperArchiver, and the Happy enhancements was allways bulletproof and the competition couldn't do that. I haven't been able to test the 815, that other ATR8000-like cp/m controller, or the Trak. The only third-party Controller worth it's salt I've owned (and still do) is Bob Puff's FloppyBoard for the Black Box. It is the end-all-be-all enhancement for the Atari 8-bit and is just as reliable as a 1050 while being able to use 3.5" high-density mechs. Course anything Bob made or sold was awesome. Ironicly, I use the same mechs on the Floppy Board I used to use on my ATR and Percom so it sure wasn't the mechs. Regards, Jeff P.S. If you are wondering why I've had so many drives. It isn't because they died or anything, I often traded Atari gear back then and aquired systems retired by other folks as well. > Jeff -- ----------------------------------------------------------- Jeffrey S. Worley Asheville, NC USA 828-6984887 UberTechnoid@Home.com ----------------------------------------------------------- From UberTechnoid at home.com Wed Oct 31 20:12:58 2001 From: UberTechnoid at home.com (UberTechnoid@home.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:14 2005 Subject: hard-sector 5 1/4 disk In-Reply-To: <959.704T1950T3135843optimus@canit.se> Message-ID: <20011101021704.RHEK17369.femail27.sdc1.sfba.home.com@BENCHBOX> In <959.704T1950T3135843optimus@canit.se>, on 10/31/01 at 05:13 AM, "Iggy Drougge" said: >>> And then there are these freaky 3" disks I have for an Amstrad I once >>> owned..... >>Nice, aren't they? >But why al that extra space? The disc can't be oval, so why the >rectangular case? I kinda wondered myself. Maybe the disks originally weren't intended to FULLY insert into the drive but to hang out a ways for easier grasping? They are 'flippy' disks so the designers probably anticipated a fair amount of swapping. The plastic band that pulls the metal shield back does need the full travel to reveal the disk. All in all, these seem much more rugged than the standard that won. Regards, Jeff -- ----------------------------------------------------------- Jeffrey S. Worley Asheville, NC USA 828-6984887 UberTechnoid@Home.com ----------------------------------------------------------- From jhellige at earthlink.net Wed Oct 31 20:17:17 2001 From: jhellige at earthlink.net (Jeff Hellige) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:14 2005 Subject: hard-sector 5 1/4 disk In-Reply-To: <200111010144.RAA05008@stockholm.ptloma.edu> References: <200111010144.RAA05008@stockholm.ptloma.edu> Message-ID: > > The Indus GT was one nice drive and they made it for other >> machines than just the Atari line. > >I have one for my C64 and it's a nice, quiet and slick-looking disk drive. >It can really heat up, though. :-/ I've had two of them here for a while that I've used with my Atari 800 and really like them. I don't use the 810 or 1050 unless I have to, and the 810 is a Happy drive. The plastic cases that the Indus GT's came in make pretty handy disk boxes too. I've never noticed any heat problems with mine. BTW, since we're on the topic of Atari 8bit items...does anyone know what the RJ45-type connector on the rear of the Atari XDM121 printer is used for? The power and SIO connectors are pretty obvious, but I've never known what the other connector is for. Jeff -- Home of the TRS-80 Model 2000 FAQ File http://www.cchaven.com http://www.geocities.com/siliconvalley/lakes/6757 From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Wed Oct 31 20:31:55 2001 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (ajp166) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:14 2005 Subject: CPU design at the gate level Message-ID: <005a01c1627e$20859030$bbec9a8d@ajp166> The fake for that using discretes is one transistor per emitter used with the bases and collectors as common. The other is diodes. The real problem is level shifting and the use of excess redundant transistors. Allison -----Original Message----- From: Greg Ewing To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org Date: Wednesday, October 31, 2001 8:04 PM Subject: Re: CPU design at the gate level >"Peter C. Wallace" : > >> There was non-integrated RTL and DTL logic before ICs not sure about non >> integrated TTL... > >I don't think non-integrated TTL is even possible using >standard parts. It relies on multiple-emitter transistors, >and I've never heard of anyone making those available >discretely. > >Greg Ewing, Computer Science Dept, +--------------------------------------+ >University of Canterbury, | A citizen of NewZealandCorp, a | >Christchurch, New Zealand | wholly-owned subsidiary of USA Inc. | >greg@cosc.canterbury.ac.nz +--------------------------------------+ From UberTechnoid at home.com Wed Oct 31 20:40:53 2001 From: UberTechnoid at home.com (UberTechnoid@home.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:14 2005 Subject: hard-sector 5 1/4 disk In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20011101024136.SCHJ28415.femail46.sdc1.sfba.home.com@BENCHBOX> I don't know for sure, but I'd bet a dollar it is for an unreleased sheet feeder. Regards, Jeff > BTW, since we're on the topic of Atari 8bit items...does >anyone know what the RJ45-type connector on the rear of the Atari XDM121 >printer is used for? The power and SIO connectors are pretty obvious, >but I've never known what the other connector is for. > Jeff -- ----------------------------------------------------------- Jeffrey S. Worley Asheville, NC USA 828-6984887 UberTechnoid@Home.com ----------------------------------------------------------- From UberTechnoid at home.com Wed Oct 31 20:44:57 2001 From: UberTechnoid at home.com (UberTechnoid@home.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:14 2005 Subject: FloppyPUter was re:Hard-sector 51/4 disk In-Reply-To: <20011101020609.PNYH2463.femail42.sdc1.sfba.home.com@BENCHBOX> Message-ID: <20011101024601.SFUI17369.femail27.sdc1.sfba.home.com@BENCHBOX> The Percom AT-series drives used a 6809 CPU if anyone was interested. I allways wondered about an OS/9 card for it.... Regards, Jeff -- ----------------------------------------------------------- Jeffrey S. Worley Asheville, NC USA 828-6984887 UberTechnoid@Home.com ----------------------------------------------------------- From jhellige at earthlink.net Wed Oct 31 21:01:24 2001 From: jhellige at earthlink.net (Jeff Hellige) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:14 2005 Subject: FloppyPUter was re:Hard-sector 51/4 disk In-Reply-To: <20011101020609.PNYH2463.femail42.sdc1.sfba.home.com@BENCHBOX> References: <20011101020609.PNYH2463.femail42.sdc1.sfba.home.com@BENCHBOX> Message-ID: >Either you knew something about this allready and forgot or are just darn >smart. Years ago I had heard rumors of their being a way of running CP/M on the drive itself with the onboard Z80 but I was never able to get any concrete infomation on it and I never bothered to open one of them up, since both of mine do work, to verify that they had a Z80 as part of the controller. >The Indus GT disk drive was made for; of course the Atari8bit, and I think >the Apple II and C64 machines. Yes, those are the platforms that I recall seeing them for. From the outside, they appeared identical to me other than the I/O connectors. > Rana Systems became Indus which later became Future Systems. I didn't know that Rana and Indus were one and the same. >The Indus GT had a non-standard, belt-driven 1/2 height mechanism. >Allmost all the electronics driving the mech were located on the Indus >controller board mounted beneath. The controller had it's OWN Z-80 >processor and some ram. I think something like 2k. You could add a 64k >CP/M adapter card to a pinedge connector on the controller. I never saw >this board in person, but that it existed at least in proto form is >certain. Later Indus and Future systems GT's omitted the cp/m board >connector but the pads were still there. There was quite a bit of talk >about it back in the day. An Indus owner could get CP/M without having to >buy an ATR8000 to do it. I think the Indus CP/M module was going to cost >something like $149.00 - $199.00 vs a 64k ATR8000 at $400.00 plus. That's pretty cool. Regardless of just how well it worked, it'd be interesting to see it done at least once. I wonder if the console I/O was directed to the screen I/O of the Atari 8bit? >Frankly, I think the Atari 810, and 1050 were the only bulletproof drives >made for the Atari 8 bits. The 810 I like, especially with the additional speed of the Happy upgrade. Without it, the 810 certainly is a slow and noisy beast! The 1050 I've never been a big fan of, though none of mine ever got upgraded to true DD. >The only third-party Controller worth it's salt I've owned (and still do) >is Bob Puff's FloppyBoard for the Black Box. It is the end-all-be-all >enhancement for the Atari 8-bit and is just as reliable as a 1050 while >being able to use 3.5" high-density mechs. Course anything Bob made or >sold was awesome. Does Bob still do anything? Other than in conversations about his older stuff, I've not heard his name mentioned in a while. Jeff -- Home of the TRS-80 Model 2000 FAQ File http://www.cchaven.com http://www.geocities.com/siliconvalley/lakes/6757 From edick at idcomm.com Wed Oct 31 22:30:24 2001 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:14 2005 Subject: hard-sector 5 1/4 disk References: Message-ID: <002501c1628d$ed370000$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> You can't take anything away from their imagination, but they always applied more effort to selling (getting your money) than to producing (providing you value). That may not be the case any longer, but since I don't know anyone who's using Apple products any more, I probably won't hear what's up. Things may be different in a year or two. Dick ----- Original Message ----- From: "Sellam Ismail" To: Sent: Wednesday, October 31, 2001 5:44 PM Subject: Re: hard-sector 5 1/4 disk > On Wed, 31 Oct 2001, Richard Erlacher wrote: > > > They liked to use the latest greatest hardware at Apple, but they > > quickly turned the silk purse into a sow's ear with their practice of > > giving away 90% of performance and convenience in order to save 1% in > > cost. When they were done, they charged for the silk purse, you can > > be sure, but still delivered the sow's ear. > > Apparently there was some value in what they sold because people bought > it, and Apple is still around (they're hanging on, thanks to Jobs...love > him or hate him, he saved the company). > > Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ > International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org > > From fernande at internet1.net Wed Oct 31 22:59:52 2001 From: fernande at internet1.net (Chad Fernandez) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:14 2005 Subject: VLB SCSI? References: <740.705T1500T715541optimus@canit.se> Message-ID: <3BE0D6C8.8F88ADA4@internet1.net> They are better than Plug an Play. PnP doesn't let you choose any settings. Not having jumpers is a nice way to have it too. Plus not all PS/2s use the referance partition (IML). Maybe you would like Microchannel in the RS6000 line..... they don't use adf files I have heard! Chad Fernandez Michigan, USA Iggy Drougge wrote: > What I dislike about either system is that it's so awfully software-based. > IMO you can't really can't call MCA or EISA plug'n'play. > That entire business with reference partitions (my own Prosignia is dormant > since I overwrote its "BIOS" while installing OpenBSD), ADFs and config files > is not much more elegant than jumpers. > Yes, EISA had a good selection of SCSI. And the PC has a good selection of > software. That's no reason to like either, though. ;-) > > -- > En ligne avec Thor 2.6a. > > Life begins at '030. Fun begins at '040. Impotence begins at '86. From jhellige at earthlink.net Wed Oct 31 10:49:21 2001 From: jhellige at earthlink.net (Jeff Hellige) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:19 2005 Subject: Apple II accelerator and Micromodem II questions In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <01Nov1.235353est.119219@gateway.mediacen.navy.mil> >It isn't. This modem was made in the days when you weren't allowed to >hook anything to the phone system unless it was Bell approved. This >particular box (called the "coupler") is an approved device for attaching >the modem to the phone network. My PMMI MM-103 modem is the same way. It has an external coupler box that connects to the S-100 bus modem card by way of a ribbon cable and connects to the phone line with a standard RJ11 phone jack. Thankfully I have the coupler box. Jeff -- Home of the TRS-80 Model 2000 FAQ File http://www.cchaven.com http://www.geocities.com/siliconvalley/lakes/6757