From cmurillo at emtelsa.multi.net.co Fri Nov 30 23:12:59 2001 From: cmurillo at emtelsa.multi.net.co (Carlos Murillo) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:19:30 2005 Subject: Off Topic - stereo to PC question In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.2.20011130162018.00b04810@pop3.norton.antivirus> References: <9011A52E011ED311B4280004AC1BA6150146730B@yalepress3.unipre ss.yale.edu> Message-ID: <3.0.2.32.20011201001259.018ec10c@obregon.multi.net.co> At 04:22 PM 11/30/01 -0500, you wrote: >Can anybody tell me how to attach my stereo to my PC so that I can transfer >from Cassette to CD-R or hard-drive. Aha... I've been through that. I have 70's vintage cassette tapes that I thought I would one day own in vinyl or CD format. The rarest european works from that time have actually been reissued in CD. The american works were plainly forgotten, and I've had to go through the tape-to-soundcard (hiss)digitize process. Sigh... Get a good cassette deck; I hope that your tapes were recorded using Dolby C, or at least B. In either case, the high freq response is already lost, but during playback/recording, you might actually null out some high frq noise... now, what kind of audio outputs does your system have? line level or at least headphone level? Most sound cards accept line level audio; if your system can't output line level audio, you can build an easy T network for a headphone-to-line level conversion for each channel that will preserve as much S/N as possible.. -------------------------------------------------------------- Carlos E. Murillo-Sanchez carlos_murillo@nospammers.ieee.org From jhellige at earthlink.net Sat Nov 17 11:01:13 2001 From: jhellige at earthlink.net (Jeff Hellige) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:23:34 2005 Subject: OT: paging MAC expert(s) --- What's a Performa? In-Reply-To: <3BF6828B.3070106@chisp.net> References: <200111170039.QAA09132@stockholm.ptloma.edu> <005701c16f11$44e6fb40$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> <000701c16f18$a1924320$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> <3BF6828B.3070106@chisp.net> Message-ID: He'd have to make sure he got an older version that supported the 68k Mac's though, as the current versions are PPC-only and require at least OS 8.1. I believe I have a 68k version here on an old Earthlink software CD. That version will work on a 68k Mac with OS 7.0 or above. Jeff >http://www.aladdinsys.com/ > >Richard Erlacher wrote: > >>I've downloaded TattleTech, but where, now, do I find the Stuffit Expander? >> >>regards, >> >>Dick >> >>----- Original Message ----- >>From: "Jeff Hellige" >>To: >>Sent: Friday, November 16, 2001 8:17 PM >>Subject: Re: OT: paging MAC expert(s) --- What's a Performa? >> >> > > > -- Home of the TRS-80 Model 2000 FAQ File http://www.cchaven.com http://www.geocities.com/siliconvalley/lakes/6757 From spectre at stockholm.ptloma.edu Sat Nov 17 11:59:35 2001 From: spectre at stockholm.ptloma.edu (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:23:34 2005 Subject: OT: paging MAC expert(s) --- What's a Performa? In-Reply-To: from Jeff Hellige at "Nov 17, 1 12:01:13 pm" Message-ID: <200111171759.JAA11106@stockholm.ptloma.edu> > He'd have to make sure he got an older version that supported > the 68k Mac's though, as the current versions are PPC-only and > require at least OS 8.1. I believe I have a 68k version here on an > old Earthlink software CD. That version will work on a 68k Mac with > OS 7.0 or above. I've used 5.5 without difficulty on my 7.1 stable. -- ----------------------------- personal page: http://www.armory.com/~spectre/ -- Cameron Kaiser, Point Loma Nazarene University * ckaiser@stockholm.ptloma.edu -- In memory of Werner Klemperer ---------------------------------------------- From edick at idcomm.com Sat Nov 17 12:13:51 2001 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:23:34 2005 Subject: OT: paging MAC expert(s) --- What's a Performa? References: <200111171759.JAA11106@stockholm.ptloma.edu> Message-ID: <000d01c16f93$9db75d00$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> Right now, I'm pretty concerned about how to crack open the box without breaking it, so I can inspect the hard disk to see what it is, physically. Does anybody have a recipe for doing that? Moreover, I imagine I'll use one of the considerably larger IDE types I've set aside from PC use to replace the drives now in the machines. It's safe to assume, however, that NOT any IDE drive will work, since Apple Computers, Inc. didn't like folks buying hardware at a resonable price from someone else rather than allowing Apple to gouge them. (part of the MAC culture, I guess) I note, also, that the CDROM is SCSI. That being the case, I'd like to see whether there's room for a SCSI HDD in the box. There certainly is room in the system (logically). That would work even better, since I have lots of extra SCSI drives. Have any of you MAC gurus got experience with replacing MAC IDE drives? It looks as though the drives in the boxes are 250 MB or so, which might be adequate for some things, but I doubt it would be adequate for internet activity. Dick ----- Original Message ----- From: "Cameron Kaiser" To: Sent: Saturday, November 17, 2001 10:59 AM Subject: Re: OT: paging MAC expert(s) --- What's a Performa? > > He'd have to make sure he got an older version that supported > > the 68k Mac's though, as the current versions are PPC-only and > > require at least OS 8.1. I believe I have a 68k version here on an > > old Earthlink software CD. That version will work on a 68k Mac with > > OS 7.0 or above. > > I've used 5.5 without difficulty on my 7.1 stable. > > -- > ----------------------------- personal page: http://www.armory.com/~spectre/ -- > Cameron Kaiser, Point Loma Nazarene University * ckaiser@stockholm.ptloma.edu > -- In memory of Werner Klemperer ---------------------------------------------- > > From jrasite at eoni.com Sat Nov 17 12:42:12 2001 From: jrasite at eoni.com (Jim Arnott) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:23:34 2005 Subject: OT: paging MAC expert(s) --- What's a Performa? References: <200111171759.JAA11106@stockholm.ptloma.edu> <000d01c16f93$9db75d00$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> Message-ID: <3BF6AF3F.52850B0B@eoni.com> I can send you the service manual. Contact off list. Jim Richard Erlacher wrote: > > Right now, I'm pretty concerned about how to crack open the box without breaking > it, so I can inspect the hard disk to see what it is, physically. Does anybody > have a recipe for doing that? > From jhellige at earthlink.net Sat Nov 17 12:53:14 2001 From: jhellige at earthlink.net (Jeff Hellige) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:23:34 2005 Subject: OT: paging MAC expert(s) --- What's a Performa? In-Reply-To: <000d01c16f93$9db75d00$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> References: <200111171759.JAA11106@stockholm.ptloma.edu> <000d01c16f93$9db75d00$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> Message-ID: >Right now, I'm pretty concerned about how to crack open the box >without breaking >it, so I can inspect the hard disk to see what it is, physically. >Does anybody >have a recipe for doing that? Most Mac's, other than the earlier compact ones, are pretty easy to open. Some don't even have screws holding the case lid on, just pull tabs at the back of the lid. Others, such as the II series, have little tabs that must be pushed in while lifting on the lid. >Moreover, I imagine I'll use one of the considerably larger IDE types I've set >aside from PC use to replace the drives now in the machines. It's safe to >assume, however, that NOT any IDE drive will work, since Apple Computers, Inc. >didn't like folks buying hardware at a resonable price from someone >else rather >than allowing Apple to gouge them. (part of the MAC culture, I >guess) I note, >also, that the CDROM is SCSI. That being the case, I'd like to see whether >there's room for a SCSI HDD in the box. There certainly is room in the system >(logically). That would work even better, since I have lots of extra SCSI >drives. Have any of you MAC gurus got experience with replacing MAC >IDE drives? The problems with using hard disks other than those provided by Apple is pretty much limited to SCSI drives. I've never had a problem with popping a 3rd party IDE drive into one. Unfortunately, this also applies to SCSI CD-ROM's, though there are ways around that for using 3rd party CD's as well. If your 630 already has an internal CD-ROM it is likely to be an Apple drive anyway, so you wouldn't have to worry about this. I'd personally stick with the IDE hard disks so as to avoid the inability of formatting 3rd party SCSI drives. >It looks as though the drives in the boxes are 250 MB or so, which might be >adequate for some things, but I doubt it would be adequate for internet >activity. Depends on what you're going to use. Netscape 3 is pretty much as high as I'd go on that old of a machine, though versions up to about 4.08 are usable on non-PPC Mac's. For light use, using System 7.5.5 (which is available freely on the 'net), 250 MB isn't bad. System 7.5.5, as has already been pointed out, is less RAM hungry than 8.1 and it also takes up less disk space. That's what I'd stick with on a 68k Mac. Jeff -- Home of the TRS-80 Model 2000 FAQ File http://www.cchaven.com http://www.geocities.com/siliconvalley/lakes/6757 From edick at idcomm.com Sat Nov 17 14:05:53 2001 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:23:34 2005 Subject: OT: paging MAC expert(s) --- What's a Performa? References: <200111171759.JAA11106@stockholm.ptloma.edu> <000d01c16f93$9db75d00$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> Message-ID: <002901c16fa3$4342fae0$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> I'm acquainted with the tabs on the back of the "pizza-box" MAC's, but this isn't one of them. The tabs on the back allow removal of a small plastic cover that conceals the handle by means of which the PC board is extracted. It's apparently a pretty well-thought-out packaging job, unlike most PC's, but I haven't a clue how to get into the box itself to do things to the drives, etc. Now, maybe it's not necessary or even advisable to increase the hard disk size, but, since I have them available I'd do it if there's significant benefit involved. Dick ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jeff Hellige" To: Sent: Saturday, November 17, 2001 11:53 AM Subject: Re: OT: paging MAC expert(s) --- What's a Performa? > >Right now, I'm pretty concerned about how to crack open the box > >without breaking > >it, so I can inspect the hard disk to see what it is, physically. > >Does anybody > >have a recipe for doing that? > > Most Mac's, other than the earlier compact ones, are pretty > easy to open. Some don't even have screws holding the case lid on, > just pull tabs at the back of the lid. Others, such as the II > series, have little tabs that must be pushed in while lifting on the > lid. > > >Moreover, I imagine I'll use one of the considerably larger IDE types I've set > >aside from PC use to replace the drives now in the machines. It's safe to > >assume, however, that NOT any IDE drive will work, since Apple Computers, Inc. > >didn't like folks buying hardware at a resonable price from someone > >else rather > >than allowing Apple to gouge them. (part of the MAC culture, I > >guess) I note, > >also, that the CDROM is SCSI. That being the case, I'd like to see whether > >there's room for a SCSI HDD in the box. There certainly is room in the system > >(logically). That would work even better, since I have lots of extra SCSI > >drives. Have any of you MAC gurus got experience with replacing MAC > >IDE drives? > > The problems with using hard disks other than those provided > by Apple is pretty much limited to SCSI drives. I've never had a > problem with popping a 3rd party IDE drive into one. Unfortunately, > this also applies to SCSI CD-ROM's, though there are ways around that > for using 3rd party CD's as well. If your 630 already has an > internal CD-ROM it is likely to be an Apple drive anyway, so you > wouldn't have to worry about this. I'd personally stick with the IDE > hard disks so as to avoid the inability of formatting 3rd party SCSI > drives. > > >It looks as though the drives in the boxes are 250 MB or so, which might be > >adequate for some things, but I doubt it would be adequate for internet > >activity. > > Depends on what you're going to use. Netscape 3 is pretty > much as high as I'd go on that old of a machine, though versions up > to about 4.08 are usable on non-PPC Mac's. For light use, using > System 7.5.5 (which is available freely on the 'net), 250 MB isn't > bad. System 7.5.5, as has already been pointed out, is less RAM > hungry than 8.1 and it also takes up less disk space. That's what > I'd stick with on a 68k Mac. > > Jeff > -- > Home of the TRS-80 Model 2000 FAQ File > http://www.cchaven.com > http://www.geocities.com/siliconvalley/lakes/6757 > > From jhellige at earthlink.net Sat Nov 17 12:32:04 2001 From: jhellige at earthlink.net (Jeff Hellige) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:23:34 2005 Subject: OT: paging MAC expert(s) --- What's a Performa? In-Reply-To: <200111171759.JAA11106@stockholm.ptloma.edu> References: <200111171759.JAA11106@stockholm.ptloma.edu> Message-ID: > > He'd have to make sure he got an older version that supported >> the 68k Mac's though, as the current versions are PPC-only and >> require at least OS 8.1. I believe I have a 68k version here on an >> old Earthlink software CD. That version will work on a 68k Mac with >> OS 7.0 or above. > >I've used 5.5 without difficulty on my 7.1 stable. According to Aladin's download page, 5.5 is the last version that supports the 68k processor and System 7.1. I checked the Earthlink software CD (from 1999, which includes software for both PPC and 68k Mac's) and it included version 4.01. It's a good source for the older internet software for 68k Mac's though, with Netscape 3, OT 1.1.1 and everything else needed to get online. Jeff -- Home of the TRS-80 Model 2000 FAQ File http://www.cchaven.com http://www.geocities.com/siliconvalley/lakes/6757 From jrice at texoma.net Sat Nov 17 13:22:24 2001 From: jrice at texoma.net (James L. Rice) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:23:34 2005 Subject: OT: paging MAC expert(s) --- What's a Performa? References: <200111171759.JAA11106@stockholm.ptloma.edu> Message-ID: <3BF6B8F0.5070505@texoma.net> I'm using System 7.6.1 on my 631CD. I chose 7.6 because it seemed to work better within my NT newwork and with Microsoft Services for Macintosh on the NT servers. My Stuffit version is 5.5. James http://home.texoma.net/~jrice Cameron Kaiser wrote: >> He'd have to make sure he got an older version that supported >>the 68k Mac's though, as the current versions are PPC-only and >>require at least OS 8.1. I believe I have a 68k version here on an >>old Earthlink software CD. That version will work on a 68k Mac with >>OS 7.0 or above. >> > >I've used 5.5 without difficulty on my 7.1 stable. > From foo at siconic.com Sat Nov 17 11:46:31 2001 From: foo at siconic.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:23:34 2005 Subject: OT: paging MAC expert(s) --- What's a Performa? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Fri, 16 Nov 2001, Jeff Hellige wrote: > Actually the IIgs, unless my timeline is wrong, was released in > Sept. 1987 while both the Mac II and SE were released in March 1987. > I had forgotten that the II was released at the same time though and > also used ADB. Wasn't the IIgs released in 1986? I'm too lazy to search the web right about now, but I'm almost positive it was. Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org From lgwalker at mts.net Sat Nov 17 12:11:21 2001 From: lgwalker at mts.net (Lawrence Walker) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:23:34 2005 Subject: OT: paging MAC expert(s) --- What's a Performa? In-Reply-To: References: <001f01c16f0e$c931e480$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> Message-ID: <3BF653E9.16827.36E64552@localhost> System 7.55 at least has it. Can't remember whether I had it on earlier versions or not. Lawrence > >That's what I figured, too, but didn't turn out to be the case. > > Ahhhh...it still has System 7.X on it, which makes sense. I > don't believe 'System Profiler' showed up until System 8.0 or 8.1. I > know it's included in 8.1, as that is what I run on my PB 5300c, but > I don't recall if it is in 7.5.X or not. > > Jeff > -- > Home of the TRS-80 Model 2000 FAQ File > http://www.cchaven.com > http://www.geocities.com/siliconvalley/lakes/6757 > Reply to: lgwalker@mts.net From spectre at stockholm.ptloma.edu Sat Nov 17 12:22:50 2001 From: spectre at stockholm.ptloma.edu (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:23:34 2005 Subject: OT: paging MAC expert(s) --- What's a Performa? In-Reply-To: <20011116234246.M14340-100000@lepton.subatomix.com> from "Jeffrey S. Sharp" at "Nov 16, 1 11:44:15 pm" Message-ID: <200111171822.KAA09894@stockholm.ptloma.edu> > > When compared to Windows, the MacOS was AMAZINGLY fast, stable, and > > compact. > > And cooperatively multitasked. Ewww. This is truly its greatest fault, yes. Do note, though, that one advantage of having less software available means less shovelware. Despite being non- preemptive, classic MacOS crashes much less because the software Macs run is generally better quality. We don't have everybody and his brother writing crap that crashes the machine, though we don't have all the good stuff either. Of course, with OS X.1 now available, this critique too is no longer valid. -- ----------------------------- personal page: http://www.armory.com/~spectre/ -- Cameron Kaiser, Point Loma Nazarene University * ckaiser@stockholm.ptloma.edu -- Nothing recedes like success. -- Walter Winchell --------------------------- From edick at idcomm.com Sat Nov 17 13:58:23 2001 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:23:34 2005 Subject: OT: paging MAC expert(s) --- What's a Performa? References: <200111171822.KAA09894@stockholm.ptloma.edu> Message-ID: <001101c16fa2$370a6de0$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> I have some doubts about that multitasking ... the system seems to go away for 5 - 30 minutes, depending on what it's doing, and won't allow any mouse or keyboard activity to interrupt what it's doing, which is a mystery. It does come back eventually, though I've not checked it extensively. This sort of event happens on both boxes, so I doubt it's broken hardware. Not to create an issue, but under Windows, that doesn't often happen, though it's possible, I guess. What could be going on? Dick ----- Original Message ----- From: "Cameron Kaiser" To: Sent: Saturday, November 17, 2001 11:22 AM Subject: Re: OT: paging MAC expert(s) --- What's a Performa? > > > When compared to Windows, the MacOS was AMAZINGLY fast, stable, and > > > compact. > > > > And cooperatively multitasked. Ewww. > > This is truly its greatest fault, yes. Do note, though, that one advantage of > having less software available means less shovelware. Despite being non- > preemptive, classic MacOS crashes much less because the software Macs run > is generally better quality. We don't have everybody and his brother writing > crap that crashes the machine, though we don't have all the good stuff either. > > Of course, with OS X.1 now available, this critique too is no longer valid. > > -- > ----------------------------- personal page: http://www.armory.com/~spectre/ -- > Cameron Kaiser, Point Loma Nazarene University * ckaiser@stockholm.ptloma.edu > -- Nothing recedes like success. -- Walter Winchell --------------------------- > > From red at bears.org Sat Nov 17 23:14:21 2001 From: red at bears.org (r. 'bear' stricklin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:23:34 2005 Subject: OT: paging MAC expert(s) --- What's a Performa? In-Reply-To: <001101c16fa2$370a6de0$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> Message-ID: On Sat, 17 Nov 2001, Richard Erlacher wrote: > I have some doubts about that multitasking ... the system seems to go away for > 5 - 30 minutes, depending on what it's doing, and won't allow any mouse or > keyboard activity to interrupt what it's doing, which is a mystery. It does > come back eventually, though I've not checked it extensively. This sort of > event happens on both boxes, so I doubt it's broken hardware. Here's a thought. Disable file sharing, and set the default Appletalk connection to the built-in printer port. These can be set in the "File Sharing" and "Appletalk" control panels, respectively. ok r. From edick at idcomm.com Sat Nov 17 23:33:22 2001 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:23:34 2005 Subject: OT: paging MAC expert(s) --- What's a Performa? References: Message-ID: <002701c16ff2$89ffdc60$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> This box has been at it (rebuilding desktop file) since 2:30 this afternoon and hasn't yet finished booting. I suspect there's a problem, as it previously took only a minute or two. It won't let me do anything other than shut down. I've rebooted it once, and it simply went back to what is was doing, which doesn't seem to be leading anywhere. Dick ----- Original Message ----- From: "r. 'bear' stricklin" To: Sent: Saturday, November 17, 2001 10:14 PM Subject: Re: OT: paging MAC expert(s) --- What's a Performa? > On Sat, 17 Nov 2001, Richard Erlacher wrote: > > > I have some doubts about that multitasking ... the system seems to go away for > > 5 - 30 minutes, depending on what it's doing, and won't allow any mouse or > > keyboard activity to interrupt what it's doing, which is a mystery. It does > > come back eventually, though I've not checked it extensively. This sort of > > event happens on both boxes, so I doubt it's broken hardware. > > Here's a thought. > > Disable file sharing, and set the default Appletalk connection to the > built-in printer port. These can be set in the "File Sharing" and > "Appletalk" control panels, respectively. > > ok > r. > > From mythtech at Mac.com Sat Nov 17 16:30:24 2001 From: mythtech at Mac.com (Chris) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:23:34 2005 Subject: OT: paging MAC expert(s) --- What's a Performa? Message-ID: <200111172230.QAA74349@opal.tseinc.com> >Right now, I'm pretty concerned about how to crack open the box without >breaking >it, so I can inspect the hard disk to see what it is, physically. Does >anybody >have a recipe for doing that? This is going off memory of upgrading a 6360 (same case design)... if you want exact, I can email again on Monday when I am in front of a 630. To remove the logic board: On the back, there are two plastic tabs, push them lightly, remove the plastic face plate. Remove the two screws on either side under the face plate. Pull on the handle, the board will slide out. To remove drives: Flip the unit over, look at the front, you will see two push tabs holding the front face plate on. Push the tabs, remove the plate. The drives are on sleds, to remove a drive, push the locking tab on the sled, remove sled and drive. >Moreover, I imagine I'll use one of the considerably larger IDE types I've >set >aside from PC use to replace the drives now in the machines. It's safe to >assume, however, that NOT any IDE drive will work, since Apple Computers, >Inc. >didn't like folks buying hardware at a resonable price from someone else >rather >than allowing Apple to gouge them. (part of the MAC culture, I guess) I >note, >also, that the CDROM is SCSI. That being the case, I'd like to see whether >there's room for a SCSI HDD in the box. There certainly is room in the >system >(logically). That would work even better, since I have lots of extra SCSI >drives. Have any of you MAC gurus got experience with replacing MAC IDE >drives? There is no room in the case to add a 2nd internal drive, and running cables to replace the IDE with SCSI will be a bitch. Also, if you use SCSI, you are limited to using Apple approved drives, or you need 3rd party formating software (or a hacked version of apple's software). If you stick with IDE, you can use any drive you want, of any size you want (I am almost 100% positive apple has no problems using drives larger than 8gig on 68k machines... but you might want to double check before buying a 40 gig and hoping to use it... of course there are OS limitations on the size of a partition on older versions of the OS, don't remember details right now). Either way, you are safe to stick an older multi gig IDE drive into the 630 without a problem. Apple's software will recognize it just fine. Just remember that 68k machines can't use HFS+ formatting, so keep your drive partitions under 4 gig, or you will be wasting TONS of space on the drive. >It looks as though the drives in the boxes are 250 MB or so, which might be >adequate for some things, but I doubt it would be adequate for internet >activity. Actually, internet activity is probably what will be happiest on the 250mb drive. I think you are thinking Windows size applications. For Email you can use Eudora or Emailer (both about 3mb), Web can be iCab (about 3mb and actively under development). Fetch 3.0 has a 68k version that is about 2mb for FTP. And a plethora of other 68k friendly internet software (check www.macorchard.com). Throw in a copy of AppleWorks 5, and you have decent office apps. (or go all out with things like Nisus Writer, FileMaker Pro 3 or 4, not sure on spreadsheet but there are good options). If you make a mild attempt to lead a Microsoft free life, you will be AMAZED at the stability, small size, and speed of applications out there... all that are just as good (and in most cases BETTER). If you need to talk to MS documents, just grab a copy of MacLink Plus (although, the latest versions are PPC only, so getting access to the latest MS doc formats on a 68k machine can be a bit trickier... but still doable without too much effort). If you have 1 or 2 gig IDE drives sitting around anyway, why not use them. More important than upgrading the drive in my book would be to deck out the 630 with RAM by adding a 32mb chip. Once you have the ram, you can run OS 8.1 if you would like (in my opinion, it runs smoother and faster than 7.6.1, and is more stable than 7.5.5... but YMMV). OS 8.1 opens you up to even more good 68k software. -chris From edick at idcomm.com Sat Nov 17 18:03:49 2001 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:23:34 2005 Subject: OT: paging MAC expert(s) --- What's a Performa? References: <200111172230.QAA74349@opal.tseinc.com> Message-ID: <001c01c16fc4$8000e520$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> Yes, I'll probably upgrade the drives, since I have quite a few <2GB drives sitting about idle. I'm told that the 250MB drives that come with these boxes are adequate for what many people need, but a drive twice or 3x that size might be better. Right now, one of the two boxes is sitting, and has been for several hours, trying to reconstruct the work surface, or whatever it's called. It doesn't look as though it needs that service, but the machine won't go beyond that point. It's about 4:45 now and it's been at it since about 2:30. I'm inclined to try a backup on the other machine, if that's possible. Does the MAC OS recognize external SCSI tape drives and use them with its backup utility? Jim Arnott was kind enough to email me a PDF of the service manual for the 630, so I believe I have enough to work with. However, I'm curious about the software that's on these boxes, having yet to verify that I have the distribution media for some of the possibly useful software on them. I have documents for some software that's clearly absent, hence, my erroneous notion that these boxes had the Intel processor add-on. I'm also curious whether it's possible or even advisable to tweak the monitor so that it actually uses all the glass it has rather than leaving that stupid 1" margin around the display area that many MAC monitors seem to leave unused. That effectively reduces the "14-inch" (measures out to 13.0") display to a nominally 11-inch size. I figure I'll have this ironed out in a week or two. Dick ----- Original Message ----- From: "Chris" To: "Classic Computers" Sent: Saturday, November 17, 2001 3:30 PM Subject: Re: OT: paging MAC expert(s) --- What's a Performa? > >Right now, I'm pretty concerned about how to crack open the box without > >breaking > >it, so I can inspect the hard disk to see what it is, physically. Does > >anybody > >have a recipe for doing that? > > This is going off memory of upgrading a 6360 (same case design)... if you > want exact, I can email again on Monday when I am in front of a 630. > > To remove the logic board: On the back, there are two plastic tabs, push > them lightly, remove the plastic face plate. Remove the two screws on > either side under the face plate. Pull on the handle, the board will > slide out. > > To remove drives: Flip the unit over, look at the front, you will see two > push tabs holding the front face plate on. Push the tabs, remove the > plate. The drives are on sleds, to remove a drive, push the locking tab > on the sled, remove sled and drive. > > >Moreover, I imagine I'll use one of the considerably larger IDE types I've > >set > >aside from PC use to replace the drives now in the machines. It's safe to > >assume, however, that NOT any IDE drive will work, since Apple Computers, > >Inc. > >didn't like folks buying hardware at a resonable price from someone else > >rather > >than allowing Apple to gouge them. (part of the MAC culture, I guess) I > >note, > >also, that the CDROM is SCSI. That being the case, I'd like to see whether > >there's room for a SCSI HDD in the box. There certainly is room in the > >system > >(logically). That would work even better, since I have lots of extra SCSI > >drives. Have any of you MAC gurus got experience with replacing MAC IDE > >drives? > > There is no room in the case to add a 2nd internal drive, and running > cables to replace the IDE with SCSI will be a bitch. Also, if you use > SCSI, you are limited to using Apple approved drives, or you need 3rd > party formating software (or a hacked version of apple's software). If > you stick with IDE, you can use any drive you want, of any size you want > (I am almost 100% positive apple has no problems using drives larger than > 8gig on 68k machines... but you might want to double check before buying > a 40 gig and hoping to use it... of course there are OS limitations on > the size of a partition on older versions of the OS, don't remember > details right now). Either way, you are safe to stick an older multi gig > IDE drive into the 630 without a problem. Apple's software will recognize > it just fine. Just remember that 68k machines can't use HFS+ formatting, > so keep your drive partitions under 4 gig, or you will be wasting TONS of > space on the drive. > > >It looks as though the drives in the boxes are 250 MB or so, which might be > >adequate for some things, but I doubt it would be adequate for internet > >activity. > > Actually, internet activity is probably what will be happiest on the > 250mb drive. I think you are thinking Windows size applications. For > Email you can use Eudora or Emailer (both about 3mb), Web can be iCab > (about 3mb and actively under development). Fetch 3.0 has a 68k version > that is about 2mb for FTP. And a plethora of other 68k friendly internet > software (check www.macorchard.com). > > Throw in a copy of AppleWorks 5, and you have decent office apps. (or go > all out with things like Nisus Writer, FileMaker Pro 3 or 4, not sure on > spreadsheet but there are good options). If you make a mild attempt to > lead a Microsoft free life, you will be AMAZED at the stability, small > size, and speed of applications out there... all that are just as good > (and in most cases BETTER). If you need to talk to MS documents, just > grab a copy of MacLink Plus (although, the latest versions are PPC only, > so getting access to the latest MS doc formats on a 68k machine can be a > bit trickier... but still doable without too much effort). > > If you have 1 or 2 gig IDE drives sitting around anyway, why not use > them. More important than upgrading the drive in my book would be to deck > out the 630 with RAM by adding a 32mb chip. Once you have the ram, you > can run OS 8.1 if you would like (in my opinion, it runs smoother and > faster than 7.6.1, and is more stable than 7.5.5... but YMMV). OS 8.1 > opens you up to even more good 68k software. > > -chris > > > > From gwynp at artware.qc.ca Sat Nov 17 21:23:08 2001 From: gwynp at artware.qc.ca (gwynp@artware.qc.ca) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:23:34 2005 Subject: OT: paging MAC expert(s) --- What's a Performa? In-Reply-To: <000701c16f18$a1924320$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> Message-ID: On 17-Nov-2001 Richard Erlacher wrote: > I've downloaded TattleTech, but where, now, do I find the Stuffit > Expander? You're best bet is to buy a Mac Addict or other magazine that has a CD-ROM (you do have a CD drive?). Older Macs don't "boot-strap" very well. Yes, you can get a SEA (self-extracting archive) of Stuffit, but it won't do you much good. Mac OS has 2 forks per file. One for data, the other for code. When you download a file or when you copy a file from a PC formated disk everything goes into the data fork. Doing something equivalent to "chmod +x file.sea" is impossible on Mac OS without an external program, like say Stuffit. *sigh* If you are lucky, you'll have a recent version of Mac OS which includes Stuffit. I find this to be one of the most incredible "features" of Mac OS. Apart from that, as long as you have a real computer nearby, using a Mac isn't that bad. What's the use of a Mac of that vintage (ie, old and slow but not classic)? I have a Centris 660av that I use for testing web pages on older macintosh versions of Netscape and MSIE. Of course, finding a 68k version of MSIE is something of a challenge. -Philip From SUPRDAVE at aol.com Sat Nov 17 22:01:59 2001 From: SUPRDAVE at aol.com (SUPRDAVE@aol.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:23:34 2005 Subject: OT: paging MAC expert(s) --- What's a Performa? Message-ID: <168.41c2b56.29288cb7@aol.com> In a message dated 11/17/2001 10:36:49 PM Eastern Standard Time, gwynp@artware.qc.ca writes: << What's the use of a Mac of that vintage (ie, old and slow but not classic)? I have a Centris 660av that I use for testing web pages on older macintosh versions of Netscape and MSIE. Of course, finding a 68k version of MSIE is something of a challenge. -Philip >> What's the use of an old mac? I guess you haven't played crystal quest on a mac plus yet! heh. From edick at idcomm.com Sat Nov 17 22:41:18 2001 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:23:34 2005 Subject: OT: paging MAC expert(s) --- What's a Performa? References: <168.41c2b56.29288cb7@aol.com> Message-ID: <000b01c16feb$4414dc20$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> Whereas I guess providing entertainment is a legitimate use of your computer, there are some who won't consider game playing a justification for owning one. I do use the things, e.g. solitaire or the like to pass time while something time-consuming is going on, like a download I'm waiting for, or the like, but I surely don't admit that to my kids. Dick ----- Original Message ----- From: To: Sent: Saturday, November 17, 2001 9:01 PM Subject: Re: OT: paging MAC expert(s) --- What's a Performa? > In a message dated 11/17/2001 10:36:49 PM Eastern Standard Time, > gwynp@artware.qc.ca writes: > > << What's the use of a Mac of that vintage (ie, old and slow but not > classic)? I have a Centris 660av that I use for testing web pages on > older macintosh versions of Netscape and MSIE. Of course, finding a 68k > version of MSIE is something of a challenge. > > -Philip >> > > What's the use of an old mac? I guess you haven't played crystal quest on a > mac plus yet! heh. > > From mythtech at Mac.com Sat Nov 17 22:29:33 2001 From: mythtech at Mac.com (Chris) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:23:34 2005 Subject: OT: paging MAC expert(s) --- What's a Performa? Message-ID: <200111180429.WAA77239@opal.tseinc.com> > as long as you have a real computer nearby BWAAAA-HAAA-HAA-HAAA!!! >What's the use of a Mac of that vintage (ie, old and slow but not >classic)? The list goes on and on. Check www.lowendmac.com for some pointers... but basically, it can do pretty much everything a "regular" home user would want. Internet, basic office work, graphics, games (albeit, if you want REAL gaming, buy a console or a "toy" computer that uses Windows). >I have a Centris 660av that I use for testing web pages on >older macintosh versions of Netscape and MSIE. The 660AV will also allow you to do video in/out, and some video editing (with the right software). -chris From mythtech at Mac.com Sat Nov 17 22:35:57 2001 From: mythtech at Mac.com (Chris) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:23:34 2005 Subject: OT: paging MAC expert(s) --- What's a Performa? Message-ID: <200111180435.WAA77281@opal.tseinc.com> >Right now, one of the two boxes is sitting, and has been for several hours, >trying to reconstruct the work surface, or whatever it's called. It doesn't >look as though it needs that service, but the machine won't go beyond that >point. It's about 4:45 now and it's been at it since about 2:30. I'm >inclined >to try a backup on the other machine, if that's possible. Sounds like you may have a problem with the OS. Unless you know the direct history of these machines (ie: you know everything that has been run and installed on them), I would recommend you reformat and reinstall the OS from scratch. Sitting waiting for the Finder do come up is definatly NOT normal. You mentioned in a previous post that you had problems with the mouse cursor freezing for a while, and then coming back... that shouldn't happen, and the fact that it does really tells me you have something wrong. Could be an extension conflict, could be a virus, could be a corrupt file. But since you aren't a very mac literate person (yet... once you start using it, you will catch on fast), you are best off just wiping the drive and installing the OS from scratch. You can download System 7.5.5 from Apple's web site, or if you want it on a bootable CD, let me know, I will be happy to send you one. If you have the CD that came with the Mac, it should let you totally restore the drive to factory settings... unfortunatly, I don't recall if the Performa 630 came with a restore CD or not (I know earlier performa's did not, I am just not sure if apple started supplying it when they started shipping ones with internal CDs). If you DO have a restore CD for that machine, then I would recommend you just run it. That will put you back to a fresh, stable environment, with some basic applications that you can use. >From there, you can move to more advanced stuff. -chris From edick at idcomm.com Sat Nov 17 23:06:21 2001 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:23:34 2005 Subject: OT: paging MAC expert(s) --- What's a Performa? References: <200111180435.WAA77281@opal.tseinc.com> Message-ID: <001701c16fee$c3dc9f80$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> No offense, but I have no plan to become "MAC-Literate" beyond the point of ensuring the basic health of these two computers before I give them away to some poor, unsuspecting person who has access to MAC help and less such access to competent PC help. Since one of the people to whom I'm planning to give one of these is a single woman who volunteers at the women's shelter where I have been a volunteer for about a decade, I don't want her to be tying up my phone, or, worse, getting the wrong impression about my intentions, as she also works at the school where my boys went a few years back, which is the first place I met her. Though it's no secret I'm not married, I've already got all the women I need, plus about 10% (exactly one). I do want to be able to give these boxes to someone, with the confidence that they'll not be having unnecessary problems because I've not ferreted out some problems, though, so I'll consider your advice. If I put new drives in them, they'll be freshly formatted and the OS install will be new and fresh. While it's a generous offer, I'll try to get by with the CD's I've got on hand for now, as those are accompanied with the registrations, documentation that comes with these boxes, etc, and I'd like everything at least to appear to be on the up-and-up, copyright-law-wise. Whereas I may sometimes play things fast-and-loose with "borrowed" software, etc, I'd prefer not to promulgate those attitudes and practices into the new-user community where they might be seen differently than I see them. What I suspect is that there's a syncronization error between the installed OS and the OS on the CD. That would have come about by my own hand, so I'll consider the consequences. BTW, what does the "Backup" function do? It seems to want to copy things to floppies, but can it also copy things to an external SCSI drive? How about to a SCSI tape? Dick ----- Original Message ----- From: "Chris" To: "Classic Computers" Sent: Saturday, November 17, 2001 9:35 PM Subject: Re: OT: paging MAC expert(s) --- What's a Performa? > >Right now, one of the two boxes is sitting, and has been for several hours, > >trying to reconstruct the work surface, or whatever it's called. It doesn't > >look as though it needs that service, but the machine won't go beyond that > >point. It's about 4:45 now and it's been at it since about 2:30. I'm > >inclined > >to try a backup on the other machine, if that's possible. > > Sounds like you may have a problem with the OS. Unless you know the > direct history of these machines (ie: you know everything that has been > run and installed on them), I would recommend you reformat and reinstall > the OS from scratch. Sitting waiting for the Finder do come up is > definatly NOT normal. You mentioned in a previous post that you had > problems with the mouse cursor freezing for a while, and then coming > back... that shouldn't happen, and the fact that it does really tells me > you have something wrong. Could be an extension conflict, could be a > virus, could be a corrupt file. But since you aren't a very mac literate > person (yet... once you start using it, you will catch on fast), you are > best off just wiping the drive and installing the OS from scratch. > > You can download System 7.5.5 from Apple's web site, or if you want it on > a bootable CD, let me know, I will be happy to send you one. If you have > the CD that came with the Mac, it should let you totally restore the > drive to factory settings... unfortunatly, I don't recall if the Performa > 630 came with a restore CD or not (I know earlier performa's did not, I > am just not sure if apple started supplying it when they started shipping > ones with internal CDs). If you DO have a restore CD for that machine, > then I would recommend you just run it. That will put you back to a > fresh, stable environment, with some basic applications that you can use. > From there, you can move to more advanced stuff. > > -chris > > > > From mythtech at Mac.com Sun Nov 18 01:32:03 2001 From: mythtech at Mac.com (Chris) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:23:34 2005 Subject: OT: paging MAC expert(s) --- What's a Performa? Message-ID: <200111180732.BAA78653@opal.tseinc.com> >No offense, but I have no plan to become "MAC-Literate" beyond the point of >ensuring the basic health of these two computers before I give them away >to some >poor, unsuspecting person who has access to MAC help and less such access to >competent PC help. hehe, yeah, but that mac is so damn easy to learn, you may become "mac-literate" by accident just in your quick use. >Since one of the people to whom I'm planning to give one of >these is a single woman who volunteers at the women's shelter where I have >been >a volunteer for about a decade, I don't want her to be tying up my phone, or, >worse, getting the wrong impression about my intentions, as she also works at >the school where my boys went a few years back, which is the first place I >met >her. Though it's no secret I'm not married, I've already got all the women I >need, plus about 10% (exactly one). Definitly just reformat and start from scratch then. If you are giving them away, no sense even messing around trying to get the software working as it. Reformat, reinstall, and hand them off knowing they will work fine when YOU give them away. >While it's a generous offer, I'll try to get by with the CD's I've got on >hand >for now, as those are accompanied with the registrations, documentation that >comes with these boxes, etc, and I'd like everything at least to appear to >be on >the up-and-up, copyright-law-wise. Whereas I may sometimes play things >fast-and-loose with "borrowed" software, etc, I'd prefer not to promulgate >those >attitudes and practices into the new-user community where they might be seen >differently than I see them. Actually, System 7.5.5 is freely available from Apple's web site. So if you have the tools, you can make a bootable OS install disk yourself, and distribute it with the Mac, safely, and legally. I assume you DON'T have the tools (like another Mac with a CD burner and a copy of Toast), so if you want one, I will make one for you and mail it over to you (free of charge, since it will really only cost me less than a buck a disk with postage). >BTW, what does the "Backup" function do? It seems to want to copy things to >floppies, but can it also copy things to an external SCSI drive? How >about to a >SCSI tape? UGH... no, that means the machines probably didn't come with a restore CD. To cut costs with the performa line, apple stopped shipping them with install disks. Instead, they made a little "Backup" program, and you were supposed to purchase a box (a big box, since it needs like 25 or 50) of disks, and run the backup program. It would then create the install disks for you, to hang on to until the day you needed to reinstall. Annoying to say the least. Unfortuantly, the backup program will ONLY write to floppies, so you can't hook up a scsi tape drive and go to that (besides, the Mac has no built in drivers for a tape drive, so you would need software like Retrospect to access it anyway). I can probably hunt down a set of install disks for the Performa 630 (I might actually have such already, I have to see if I got the original software with one of them that I recovered) if you need them. Sounds like you might already have the original software CDs. If one is called Software Restore, then you are good to go, but that backup program makes me think you don't have it (I think I have one for a Performa 638CD, which is basically the same machine, slightly different bundle). If I have it, I can always make you two copies of it (again, since you have the machine they go to, there should be nothing legally wrong with getting copies from me). -chris From mythtech at Mac.com Sun Nov 18 01:43:33 2001 From: mythtech at Mac.com (Chris) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:23:34 2005 Subject: OT: paging MAC expert(s) --- What's a Performa? Message-ID: <200111180743.BAA78741@opal.tseinc.com> >This box has been at it (rebuilding desktop file) since 2:30 this >afternoon and >hasn't yet finished booting. I suspect there's a problem, as it >previously took >only a minute or two. It won't let me do anything other than shut down. >I've >rebooted it once, and it simply went back to what is was doing, which doesn't >seem to be leading anywhere. Are you actually seeing a message "Rebuilding desktop on drive ---"? You shouldn't get that just at boot time unless the desktop database is corrupt (or unless you instructed it to rebuild by holding command and option before the desktop was shown). If it is hung while trying to rebuild (you should hear the hard drive clicking, and the progress bar should be moving... may be slowly, but it should move... a 250mb drive, even fully loaded on a 68k machine shouldn't take more than 10 minutes to rebuild). So... if it is hung, and you rebooted the machine, and it hung AGAIN... then chances are REALLY REALLY good your drive format is damaged. The best bet here, reformat the drive (and run the test on it to verify the drive itself is not bad). Or, since you want to upgrade the drive... just do that and don't worry about the 250 at all. If on the other hand, you are just hung during boot (little icons going across the bottom of the screen, Welcome to Macintosh splash screen is still showing)... then you probably have a bad extension. Reboot the computer, and right after you hear the BONG, hold down the shift key until you see "Welcome To Macintosh Extensions Disabled" on the screen (the extensions disabled will be written below the welcome to mac). Then it should finish booting normally. You can try doing a restart after that (special menu, choose Restart), but it might hang again. Better choice, go to the Apple menu, go to Control Panels, go to Extension Manager, choose "Base" from the popup. Again, this problem will go away if you reformat and reinstall the OS. (I really really think you should just do that before you mess with the machines anymore... it will save you a bundle of heartache... at the VERY least, run Disk First Aid, and let it repair the disk if needed... and then do a clean install of the OS) -chris From spectre at stockholm.ptloma.edu Sat Nov 17 12:15:35 2001 From: spectre at stockholm.ptloma.edu (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:23:34 2005 Subject: Votrax In-Reply-To: <3BF64831.AF571FE9@xs4all.nl> from The Wanderer at "Nov 17, 1 12:21:21 pm" Message-ID: <200111171815.KAA11120@stockholm.ptloma.edu> > I recently aquired a Votrax speech system, but there was no manual with it. IIRC, you just open up a 300 bps connection to it, and send data as ASCII for it to speak. There was an ad for the Votrax which had a Commodore 64 program on the 'screen' driving it, and I think that's all there was to it. -- ----------------------------- personal page: http://www.armory.com/~spectre/ -- Cameron Kaiser, Point Loma Nazarene University * ckaiser@stockholm.ptloma.edu -- Got Mole problems? Call Avogadro at 6.02 x 10^23. -------------------------- From chris at mainecoon.com Sat Nov 17 12:29:36 2001 From: chris at mainecoon.com (Chris Kennedy) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:23:34 2005 Subject: Votrax In-Reply-To: <200111171815.KAA11120@stockholm.ptloma.edu> Message-ID: Cameron Kaiser wrote: > IIRC, you just open up a 300 bps connection to it, and send data as ASCII for > it to speak. There was an ad for the Votrax which had a Commodore 64 program > on the 'screen' driving it, and I think that's all there was to it. That certainly wasn't the case with the first Votrax I came across; you sent it a byte stream that represented the phonemes to be voiced... -- Chris Kennedy chris@mainecoon.com http://www.mainecoon.com PGP fingerprint: 4E99 10B6 7253 B048 6685 6CBC 55E1 20A3 108D AB97 From cmcmanis at mcmanis.com Sat Nov 17 12:53:30 2001 From: cmcmanis at mcmanis.com (Chuck McManis) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:23:34 2005 Subject: Votrax In-Reply-To: <200111171815.KAA11120@stockholm.ptloma.edu> References: <3BF64831.AF571FE9@xs4all.nl> Message-ID: <5.0.0.25.2.20011117105251.024b68a0@209.185.79.193> At 10:15 AM 11/17/01 -0800, you wrote: >IIRC, you just open up a 300 bps connection to it, and send data as ASCII for >it to speak. There was an ad for the Votrax which had a Commodore 64 program >on the 'screen' driving it, and I think that's all there was to it. Depends on if it is just the allophone generator or both the allophone/text to speech processor. --Chuck From cisin at xenosoft.com Sat Nov 17 16:33:54 2001 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin (XenoSoft)) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:23:34 2005 Subject: Votrax In-Reply-To: <5.0.0.25.2.20011117105251.024b68a0@209.185.79.193> Message-ID: > >IIRC, you just open up a 300 bps connection to it, JUST open a 300bps connection??!?! Did you know that there is at least one documented fatality from the frustrations of RS232 interfacing? ALthough SOME models of the Votraxen might not have been totally demented, ... Once the Radio Shack Computer Center called me, and paid me to come to them and connect a Votrax to a model 2, for a blind customer. That model Votrax required a handshake on an unexpected pin (11? 12?). Without the manual for the Votrax, I don't think that anyone here other than Tony could have succeeded! I don't remember what I charged them (a few hours, travel, and a little extra for field soldering), but I do remember that they gave me as a tip a copy of the Model 2 Technical Reference Manual. > > and send data as ASCII for > >it to speak. There was an ad for the Votrax which had a Commodore 64 program > >on the 'screen' driving it, and I think that's all there was to it. On Sat, 17 Nov 2001, Chuck McManis wrote: > Depends on if it is just the allophone generator or both the allophone/text > to speech processor. Any idea what model it is? Most of the phoneme based ones chose characters for the phonemes based on mnemonic similarities to English. Thus, if you send ASCII text to it, you WILL get speech, just really LOUSY, since most English words are not close enough to phonetic for decent quality. But sending plain ASCII text will produce something that is recognizable as being speech, and you'll be able to pick out occasional words (and you'll get a chance to feel what it's like to be hard of hearing!) "HELLO" will be marginally recognizable, but try something like "H38L8^U" Most of them, at their best, were pretty bad. Debbee Norling described the Vortrax as sounding "like a Martian in a tin can". But blind folk who used them regularly would get used to the weird sound, and it would be "like a friend with a heavy accent." BTW, since speech is so agonizingly slow to get through long program listings, etc, most blind folk would run the text through at MUCH faster rates than normal speech. -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin@xenosoft.com NOTE: My ISP is having some problems. If you have difficulty reaching me at this e-mail address, you can leave a message at: fcisin@merritt.edu cisin@info.sims.berkeley.edu From spectre at stockholm.ptloma.edu Sat Nov 17 23:46:43 2001 From: spectre at stockholm.ptloma.edu (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:23:34 2005 Subject: Votrax In-Reply-To: from Fred Cisin at "Nov 17, 1 02:33:54 pm" Message-ID: <200111180546.VAA08046@stockholm.ptloma.edu> > >IIRC, you just open up a 300 bps connection to it, > JUST open a 300bps connection??!?! Yep, the program just had 10 open2,2,2,chr$(6) : : 40 close2 Works great on a C64 :-) -- ----------------------------- personal page: http://www.armory.com/~spectre/ -- Cameron Kaiser, Point Loma Nazarene University * ckaiser@stockholm.ptloma.edu -- Eeny, Meeny, Jelly Beanie, the spirits are about to speak! -- Bullwinkle --- From MTPro at aol.com Sat Nov 17 12:47:55 2001 From: MTPro at aol.com (MTPro@aol.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:23:34 2005 Subject: History of Computing CD Message-ID: <36.1eda9e9a.29280adb@aol.com> Hello, I have one copy of this CD left, it's new and the most current version. Anyone like to buy it? The "History of Computing: An Encyclopedia of the People and Machines that Made Computer History," a CD ROM based reference containing over 1,000 PHOTOS of early machines and technologies. (Win 95/98/NT & Win 2000, and above, compatible) Sells for $19.95 at amazon.com, see: http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0944601782/qid=1002987031/sr=8-2/ref=sr _8_7_2/002-0016231-5469635 Only $10 plus shipping! Best, David David Greelish Classic Computing www.classiccomputing.com "classiccomputing" on eBay From kyrrin at bluefeathertech.com Sat Nov 17 14:31:54 2001 From: kyrrin at bluefeathertech.com (Bruce Lane) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:23:34 2005 Subject: AVAILABLE: 9-track SCSI-SE tri-density tape drives Message-ID: <200111171231540717.07F9BD9B@192.168.42.129> (Cross-posted to: classiccmp, and the port-sparc and port-vax lists at NetBSD.org) NOTE: LOCAL PICKUP ONLY EXCEPT BY SPECIAL ARRANGEMENT: I'm sorry, but these are too big and bulky for me to easily ship unless you want to pay $150 for a special box plus the freight charges. Pickup location is Kent, Washington (southeast of Seattle). -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- Hi, folks, Due to shifting interests, and a massive cleanup, I'm getting rid of two 9-track SCSI interface tape drives. Both are multi-density, both are standard single-ended SCSI interface, no oddball connectors, and I'd like to ask for $100 OR BEST OFFER on each one. Here's the specific details. HP 88780: Handles 800, 1600, and 6250 density tapes. Front-loading/autoloading, rackmount, and in pretty darn good shape. Originally badged as a Sun drive, and I seem to recall that it ID's as a Sun device. However, it worked just fine with standard SCSI hardware. Includes rack slides, functional when last turned on a few months back. M4 Data Model 9914R (rackmount). Handles all four known densities: 800, 1600, 3200, and 6250. Also front-load/autoload, also in great shape. I can probably come up with a set of rack slides for it as well. Somewhat lighter than the HP in physical terms, and it can be easily converted to a Pertec interface by removing the SCSI interface board and changing one parameter in the NVRAM setup. Thanks much for putting up with my blatant ad. ;-) -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- Bruce Lane, Owner & Head Hardware Heavy, Blue Feather Technologies -- http://www.bluefeathertech.com ARS KC7GR (Formerly WD6EOS) since 12-77 -- kyrrin@bluefeathertech.com "I'll get a life when someone demonstrates that it would be superior to what I have now..." (Taki Kogoma, aka Gym Z. Quirk) From sieler at allegro.com Sat Nov 17 14:47:30 2001 From: sieler at allegro.com (Stan Sieler) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:23:34 2005 Subject: HP 3000 No More In-Reply-To: <001501c16d8b$aeb3df70$0101a8c0@sympatico.ca> Message-ID: <3BF65C62.29765.942B49C@localhost> Re: Mike Kenzie writes: > Especially since we were supposed to be migrating our system from a > IBM 390 to the HP3000. > I guess a year of planning and vendor selection is out the window. So? What was the projected lifespan of the 3000 you were going to migrate to? 5 years? 7? Then *go ahead*...any 3000 you get today will run that long, no problem ... and it will do it better and cheaper and more reliably than many other choices. OTOH, if you were choosing a platform that would be around for 10+ years, well ... I don't think any vendor has made that kind of promise! (Indeed, how many have promised *as of today* that their platform *will* be here in 5 years? HP has with the 3000 :) However, with that kind of initial condition, I think there are only two choices: Linux and Windows. I wouldn't want to bet on the various other Unix-like vendors to survive 10+ years. (Oh, I think most will, although probably not HP-UX or SGI's OS, but...do I want to bet on it?) Stan Sieler sieler@allegro.com www.allegro.com/sieler/wanted/index.html www.allegro.com/sieler From sieler at allegro.com Sat Nov 17 14:50:26 2001 From: sieler at allegro.com (Stan Sieler) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:23:34 2005 Subject: HP 3000 No More (legacy) In-Reply-To: <200111150439.UAA04848@stockholm.ptloma.edu> References: <001501c16d8b$aeb3df70$0101a8c0@sympatico.ca> Message-ID: <3BF65D12.12708.94562BD@localhost> Re: > > You're forgetting that PA-RISC is also in the same position. It's > > called "legacy", isn't it? > > Feh. We have two PA-RISC boxen in the server room. I'm sure the IT > director would be very upset if that happened, considering they're barely > three years old at the most. PA-RISC is dead/dying ... HP has said so. IA-64 killed it. Yes, we know that some new systems (for HP 9000 *and* HP 3000) are coming out in the next couple of years. Some will be based on their high-end PA-RISC 8800 "chip" (two 8700 CPUs on a single die, with a big cache), but...that's it, there's nothing in the pipeline after a few years from now. (Indeed, PA-RISC was originally scheduled to be dead by now, but it had to be extended due to the lateness of IA-64.) Do I like this? Nope. But, it's as much "legacy" as Z80, 68000, and (probably) all x86 chips. Stan Sieler sieler@allegro.com www.allegro.com/sieler/wanted/index.html www.allegro.com/sieler From mcguire at neurotica.com Sat Nov 17 15:51:09 2001 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:23:34 2005 Subject: HP 3000 No More (legacy) In-Reply-To: Re: HP 3000 No More (legacy) (Stan Sieler) References: <001501c16d8b$aeb3df70$0101a8c0@sympatico.ca> <3BF65D12.12708.94562BD@localhost> Message-ID: <15350.56269.182486.271813@phaduka.neurotica.com> On November 17, Stan Sieler wrote: > PA-RISC is dead/dying ... HP has said so. IA-64 killed it. [knee-jerk reaction to a pet peeve follows] Well, as long as "dead" can be defined as "salespeople don't want to sell you a new one". For me, it can't. I can pick up the phone and buy PDP8 equipment from a commercial vendor. How long ago was THAT architecture discontinued? For me, something is "dead" (or "obsolete" or whatever you want to call it) when it can no longer do its job adequately and cost-effectively. When Ford or Chevrolet discontinue a model of a car, does every owner of that model of car go throw them away and buy brand new cars? This industry is absurd, and its practices and philosophies are repulsive at best. I wish I didn't like computers so much. *grumble* > (Indeed, PA-RISC was originally scheduled to be dead by now, but it had to > be extended due to the lateness of IA-64.) > > Do I like this? Nope. But, it's as much "legacy" as Z80, 68000, and > (probably) all x86 chips. ...all of which can be bought new today, and are being built into systems (though not mainstream suits-doing-powerpoint-presentations type of systems, but is that really what this crowd cares about?) every day. "something new came out" != "this is now useless". Now, Stan...I apologize if it seems as if I'm jumping down your throat with this, and believe me I do get the impression that I'm precahing to the choir. But I also believe that the vast majority of the folks here understand that computers don't stop processing data when the manufacturer no longer wants to sell new ones of the same type. This group is likely the most enlightened of any on this subject. So why go along with it? Respectfully, -Dave McGuire -- Dave McGuire St. Petersburg, FL From sieler at allegro.com Sat Nov 17 16:32:20 2001 From: sieler at allegro.com (Stan Sieler) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:23:34 2005 Subject: HP 3000 No More (legacy) In-Reply-To: <15350.56269.182486.271813@phaduka.neurotica.com> Message-ID: <3BF674F4.31361.9A2B27B@localhost> Re: > Well, as long as "dead" can be defined as "salespeople don't want to > sell you a new one". For me, it can't. I can pick up the phone and ... I agree with you. > Now, Stan...I apologize if it seems as if I'm jumping down your throat no problem! > to the choir. But I also believe that the vast majority of the folks > here understand that computers don't stop processing data when the Me too...particularly since most of my work is on the HP 3000 :) (And the part that isn't is on PA-RISC based HP 9000s!) Stan Sieler sieler@allegro.com www.allegro.com/sieler/wanted/index.html www.allegro.com/sieler From pete at dunnington.u-net.com Sat Nov 17 17:21:44 2001 From: pete at dunnington.u-net.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:23:34 2005 Subject: HP 3000 No More (legacy) In-Reply-To: Dave McGuire "Re: HP 3000 No More (legacy)" (Nov 17, 16:51) References: <001501c16d8b$aeb3df70$0101a8c0@sympatico.ca> <3BF65D12.12708.94562BD@localhost> <15350.56269.182486.271813@phaduka.neurotica.com> Message-ID: <10111172321.ZM13913@mindy.dunnington.u-net.com> On Nov 17, 16:51, Dave McGuire wrote: > Well, as long as "dead" can be defined as "salespeople don't want to > sell you a new one". For me, it can't. I can pick up the phone and > buy PDP8 equipment from a commercial vendor. How long ago was THAT > architecture discontinued? Real Soon Now, according to people who still have them on support. Or about 1995, (yes, that's two '9's there) according to the copyright on the PCB etch of the memory board in the PDP-8/E I recently acquired :-) -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager University of York From sieler at allegro.com Sat Nov 17 15:04:55 2001 From: sieler at allegro.com (Stan Sieler) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:23:34 2005 Subject: HP 3000 No More In-Reply-To: <3BB85F7D00002DE0@obregon.multi.net.co> References: <3BF3D6EF.F3A8BB28@ecubics.com> Message-ID: <3BF66077.12344.952A76E@localhost> Re: > See my earlier post about how they started back in '73; 1972, but the actual "start" date is hard to pin down. Was it first introduction, or the re-introduction (after it was pulled off the market)? I have an "Alpha External Reference Specification" on my desk at the moment ... it's not mine :( ... and it's dated 1971-09-22. (It's the "instruction set" manual for the HP 3000.) > 16 bit, virtual mem, multi-cpu capable, hardware stack for fast The 16-bit HP 3000 was never multi-CPU. The HP 3000 Series III, introduced in 1978, *did* have one instruction that was intended to support having a second CPU, but nothing was ever done with it. The multiple-CPU support came with the PA-RISC system, with release MPE XL 3.0 > context switching; very oriented towards time sharing. Now MPE > runs on PA-RISC; I don't know what the architecture of > HP3000 was in the 80's and until they started to use > PA-RISC. Does anybody know when it became 32bit? November, 1986, was the first customer shipment of any PA-RISC based computer, the HP 9000/840. It was followed very quickly (a month?) by the HP 3000/930 (same hardware), and shortly by the HP 3000/950 and then the same-hardware HP 9000/850. The 9000/840 & 3000/930 had a clock speed of 8 MHz. The 9000/850 & 3000/950 had a clock speed of about 13.7 MHz. Stan Sieler sieler@allegro.com www.allegro.com/sieler/wanted/index.html www.allegro.com/sieler From fmc at reanimators.org Sat Nov 17 16:09:02 2001 From: fmc at reanimators.org (Frank McConnell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:23:34 2005 Subject: HP 3000 No More In-Reply-To: "Stan Sieler"'s message of "Sat, 17 Nov 2001 13:04:55 -0800" References: <3BF3D6EF.F3A8BB28@ecubics.com> <3BF66077.12344.952A76E@localhost> Message-ID: <200111172209.fAHM9T323715@daemonweed.reanimators.org> "Stan Sieler" wrote: > Re: > > See my earlier post about how they started back in '73; > > 1972, but the actual "start" date is hard to pin down. Was it first > introduction, or the re-introduction (after it was pulled off the market)? Development of Alpha started in 1968 and ran concurrently (if somewhat on a back burner, because everybody thought the 32-bit Omega was a more exciting project) w/r/t Omega until Omega's cancellation in 1970. November 1972 is when the first systems (called HP 3000) were shipped to customers. The re-release (which was somewhat improved hardware and software and also called HP 3000 initially, but later came to be called the Series I) was in October 1973. (Reference for the above: Christopher Edler's "The Strongest Castle" paper) > The 16-bit HP 3000 was never multi-CPU. The HP 3000 Series III, introduced > in 1978, *did* have one instruction that was intended to support > having a second CPU, but nothing was ever done with it. The multiple-CPU > support came with the PA-RISC system, with release MPE XL 3.0 Somebody had ideas about it being a dual-CPU shared-memory system early on. Looking at the HP3000 Computer System Reference Manual from September 1973, I see that locations %10-%13 were reserved for the second processor's current PCB pointer, QI, ZI, and interrupt count. The Series II added two instructions: LOCK and UNLK, which were used to provide a sort of in-memory semaphore. I'm not sure they were present in the Series III. The Machine Instruction Set manuals I have handy have them footnoted with "Series II computer systems only". What I don't know is whether MPE ever had dual-CPU support. If it didn't, I wonder how they worked out that having an in-memory semaphore would be a good idea. -Frank McConnell From sieler at allegro.com Sat Nov 17 16:35:49 2001 From: sieler at allegro.com (Stan Sieler) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:23:34 2005 Subject: HP 3000 No More In-Reply-To: <200111172209.fAHM9T323715@daemonweed.reanimators.org> Message-ID: <3BF675C5.26020.9A5E44C@localhost> Re: > > The 16-bit HP 3000 was never multi-CPU. The HP 3000 Series III, introduced ... > Somebody had ideas about it being a dual-CPU shared-memory system > early on. Looking at the HP3000 Computer System Reference Manual from > September 1973, I see that locations %10-%13 were reserved for the > second processor's current PCB pointer, QI, ZI, and interrupt count. > > The Series II added two instructions: LOCK and UNLK, which were used Thanks...I'd forgotten those were Series II and not Series III. > What I don't know is whether MPE ever had dual-CPU support. If it > didn't, I wonder how they worked out that having an in-memory > semaphore would be a good idea. My recollection, and it is a hazy one, is that in the mid 1980s I heard a rumor inside HP that someone had actually tried a dual CPU Series II in the lab in the last 1970s, but the project was dropped for some reason. I'll ask some of the older 3000 people about it. Stan Sieler sieler@allegro.com www.allegro.com/sieler/wanted/index.html www.allegro.com/sieler From vze2mnvr at verizon.net Sat Nov 17 15:04:28 2001 From: vze2mnvr at verizon.net (Ian Koller) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:23:34 2005 Subject: Cable and connector source References: Message-ID: <3BF6D0DC.173CA6B3@verizon.net> Tony Duell wrote: > Unfortunately, HP calculators take considerably more power than this > little Texet, so I've not managed to run one of those of an apple :-( Create an array with more of them in parallel? Tony Duell wrote: > > > > > At 12:23 AM 11/16/2001 +0000, Tony wrote: > > >If you want to know why I did this, think about : > > >1) Who do you associate with apples (the fruit, not the computer) > > >2) When was he born > > >3) Some of us celebrate his birthday rather than another event (possibly > > >birthday-related) on the same date :-). > > > > My first guess was Alan Mathison Turing, born 23 June 1912, > > who died due to cyanide contamination on an apple he was eating. > > Interesting guess. No, not this time, though... > > > > > Newton's Day is December 25, the date of his birth in 1642. > > Exactly... :-) > > The reason for the calculator run off the apple is that HPCC (UK HP > calculator club, and a general meeting place of eccentrics :-)) has > decided to do things associated with Newton (anything even remotely > associated with Newton) this year. Running a calculator off an apple > seemed somewhat appropriate. > > Unfortunately, HP calculators take considerably more power than this > little Texet, so I've not managed to run one of those of an apple :-( > > -tony From rhblakeman at kih.net Sat Nov 17 15:04:44 2001 From: rhblakeman at kih.net (Russ Blakeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:23:34 2005 Subject: In search of...5.25" faceplate & mount for WangDAT 3100 or 3200 Message-ID: I figure with the "stuff" people in this group latch onto someone might have one of these. I presently have a WangDAT 3200 (2/4gb DDS1 tape) drive with the narrow faceplate and I want to put it into the external SCSI case I have now with my other 3200. Problem being that it's the 3.5" mount and that it won't really go into a 5.25 to 3.5" adapter as it's as tall as a 5.25" half height drive desoite it being only 3.5" wide. That basically makes it 1.5x as tall as a normal 3.5" floppy drive - no go for a regular adapter. Both Mountain and WangDAT made an adapter for 5.25" for these 2 drives specifically consisting of a 5.25" faceplate and two 3.5" to 5.25" side brackets (about the same as a standard adapter has). If anyone has a JUNK 3100 or 3200 drive around they want to get rid of, parts or left overs from one or even a spare good drive (3100 or 3200) they want to sell cjeap then drop me a direct note or on the list. I will contact you direct. If you have a drive with the 5.25" face and want to swap to the smaller 3.5" then that works too as I have an extra 3.5" faceplate I can mail out in advance. Thanks in advance. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20011117/61f81660/attachment.html From donm at cts.com Sat Nov 17 18:50:03 2001 From: donm at cts.com (Don Maslin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:23:34 2005 Subject: In search of...5.25" faceplate & mount for WangDAT 3100 or 3200 In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Sat, 17 Nov 2001, Russ Blakeman wrote: > I figure with the "stuff" people in this group latch onto someone might have > one of these. I presently have a WangDAT 3200 (2/4gb DDS1 tape) drive with > the narrow faceplate and I want to put it into the external SCSI case I have > now with my other 3200. Problem being that it's the 3.5" mount and that it > won't really go into a 5.25 to 3.5" adapter as it's as tall as a 5.25" half > height drive desoite it being only 3.5" wide. That basically makes it 1.5x > as tall as a normal 3.5" floppy drive - no go for a regular adapter. Several years ago, I needed to mount a 3" (think Amstrad) floppy drive in a 5.25" slot. It too is the height of a 5.25" half high. To do it, I obtained a 5.25 to 3.5" harddisk adapter. Drilling some new holes, shimming out the brackets with washers, and cutting the center out of the faceplate created a rather presentable installation. You might consider such an approach. - don > Both Mountain and WangDAT made an adapter for 5.25" for these 2 drives > specifically consisting of a 5.25" faceplate and two 3.5" to 5.25" side > brackets (about the same as a standard adapter has). If anyone has a JUNK > 3100 or 3200 drive around they want to get rid of, parts or left overs from > one or even a spare good drive (3100 or 3200) they want to sell cjeap then > drop me a direct note or on the list. I will contact you direct. If you have > a drive with the 5.25" face and want to swap to the smaller 3.5" then that > works too as I have an extra 3.5" faceplate I can mail out in advance. > > Thanks in advance. > From rhblakeman at kih.net Sat Nov 17 19:58:49 2001 From: rhblakeman at kih.net (Russ Blakeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:23:35 2005 Subject: In search of...5.25" faceplate & mount for WangDAT 3100 or 3200 In-Reply-To: Message-ID: I've been attempting many different ways, maybe I'll try this and see what comes of it. -> -----Original Message----- -> From: owner-classiccmp@classiccmp.org -> Behalf Of Don Maslin -> Sent: Saturday, November 17, 2001 6:50 PM -> To: Classic computers message group -> Subject: Re: In search of...5.25" faceplate & mount for WangDAT 3100 or -> 3200 -> -> -> -> -> On Sat, 17 Nov 2001, Russ Blakeman wrote: -> -> > I figure with the "stuff" people in this group latch onto -> someone might have -> > one of these. I presently have a WangDAT 3200 (2/4gb DDS1 -> tape) drive with -> > the narrow faceplate and I want to put it into the external -> SCSI case I have -> > now with my other 3200. Problem being that it's the 3.5" mount -> and that it -> > won't really go into a 5.25 to 3.5" adapter as it's as tall as -> a 5.25" half -> > height drive desoite it being only 3.5" wide. That basically -> makes it 1.5x -> > as tall as a normal 3.5" floppy drive - no go for a regular adapter. -> -> Several years ago, I needed to mount a 3" (think Amstrad) floppy drive -> in a 5.25" slot. It too is the height of a 5.25" half high. To do it, -> I obtained a 5.25 to 3.5" harddisk adapter. Drilling some new holes, -> shimming out the brackets with washers, and cutting the center out of -> the faceplate created a rather presentable installation. You might -> consider such an approach. -> - don -> -> > Both Mountain and WangDAT made an adapter for 5.25" for these 2 drives -> > specifically consisting of a 5.25" faceplate and two 3.5" to 5.25" side -> > brackets (about the same as a standard adapter has). If anyone -> has a JUNK -> > 3100 or 3200 drive around they want to get rid of, parts or -> left overs from -> > one or even a spare good drive (3100 or 3200) they want to -> sell cjeap then -> > drop me a direct note or on the list. I will contact you -> direct. If you have -> > a drive with the 5.25" face and want to swap to the smaller -> 3.5" then that -> > works too as I have an extra 3.5" faceplate I can mail out in advance. -> > -> > Thanks in advance. -> > -> -> From sieler at allegro.com Sat Nov 17 15:05:17 2001 From: sieler at allegro.com (Stan Sieler) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:23:35 2005 Subject: HP 3000 No More (now HP2000 thread) In-Reply-To: <004301c16cf8$9e2ca620$0101a8c0@jay> Message-ID: <3BF6608D.31766.952FE2F@localhost> Re: > 2) Someone mentioned to me privately about an emulator for the 3000, > thinking it might be hard. It's probably not that hard for the 3000. I am It's not hard to emulate the PA-RISC instruction set. However, to run *MPE*, you'd have to: - worry about the PDC (Processor Dependent Code, aka firmware) ... can you get a license for it, or are you going to invite the litigious lawyers (ok, redundant) of HP to visit you? - worry about an MPE license (which has never been sold/licensed separate from the CPU), or ...? That's why a lot of people (including users and vendors) are asking HP to open source MPE. However, as long as HP thinks they can move HP 3000 users to HP-UX, you can bet that the open source movement won't get anywhere. > 3) The story I'm getting from HP on the 3000 migration path, is Unix Unix > Unix. However, since I seem to be one of the few on the list who really Then you misheard. It's really HP-UX, HP-UX, and then HP-UX :) Stan Sieler sieler@allegro.com www.allegro.com/sieler/wanted/index.html www.allegro.com/sieler From kyrrin at bluefeathertech.com Sat Nov 17 16:54:42 2001 From: kyrrin at bluefeathertech.com (Bruce Lane) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:23:35 2005 Subject: Additional drive and supplemental info. Message-ID: <200111171454420865.087C791A@192.168.42.129> This one is light and small enough to be shipped. It's a 'Gigastore' drive from Digi-Data Corp. Best of all, it includes the operation/maintenance manual(!). The 'Gigastore' is a weird device. What Digi-Data did is take a regular VHS VCR, make some modifications to the transport assembly, and added their own electronics to provide a Pertec interface. The result was a tape backup system that used regular VHS tapes, could store up to 2.5 gigabytes of data, and could interface to any Pertec controller. This one's cheap: $25.00 or best offer, plus shipping. Also, FYI: The HP 9-track drive I mentioned earlier would include the manual. Thanks much. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- Bruce Lane, Owner & Head Hardware Heavy, Blue Feather Technologies -- http://www.bluefeathertech.com ARS KC7GR (Formerly WD6EOS) since 12-77 -- kyrrin@bluefeathertech.com "I'll get a life when someone demonstrates that it would be superior to what I have now..." (Taki Kogoma, aka Gym Z. Quirk) From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Sat Nov 17 17:18:31 2001 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (ajp166) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:23:35 2005 Subject: HP 3000 No More (legacy) Message-ID: <00af01c16fbf$8e5b4f70$23ec9a8d@ajp166> From: Dave McGuire >On November 17, Stan Sieler wrote: >> PA-RISC is dead/dying ... HP has said so. IA-64 killed it. > > [knee-jerk reaction to a pet peeve follows] > > Well, as long as "dead" can be defined as "salespeople don't want to >sell you a new one". For me, it can't. I can pick up the phone and >buy PDP8 equipment from a commercial vendor. How long ago was THAT >architecture discontinued? > > For me, something is "dead" (or "obsolete" or whatever you want to >call it) when it can no longer do its job adequately and Dead to me is broken. Obsolete is when it cant forfill the intesded task or when it has reached a level of repair difficulty where replacement is an option. For those CNC tools with PDP-8 or PDP11s running them that number is still over $50,000 to upgrade and 100s of thousands of dollars to replace. In the face of that the PDP-8 that still makes good flanges is cheap at $2000 for a working cold spare. For example I was given three working 386(mono) and 486(color) laptops as too weak to be useful. Fully working machines with Xircom network adaptors and all! Allison From gunther at aurora.regenstrief.org Sat Nov 17 17:22:27 2001 From: gunther at aurora.regenstrief.org (Gunther Schadow) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:23:35 2005 Subject: BC16D-25 cable, what's that? Message-ID: <3BF6F133.2090707@aurora.regenstrief.org> Hi, I have a big pile of DEC BC16D-25 cable. It has one Centronics like connector on each end. The connectors have 36 pins. I have absolutely no clue what these cables are for. They came with my recent VAX treck that included a VAX6000 cluster and a DEC Server 90. If you know what this cable is used for or if you want it, please let me know. I have at least one or 2 dozen of those. If nobody wants it I'll probably have to throw it out. regards -Gunther -- Gunther Schadow, M.D., Ph.D. gschadow@regenstrief.org Medical Information Scientist Regenstrief Institute for Health Care Adjunct Assistant Professor Indiana University School of Medicine tel:1(317)630-7960 http://aurora.regenstrief.org From edick at idcomm.com Sat Nov 17 18:06:32 2001 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:23:35 2005 Subject: BC16D-25 cable, what's that? References: <3BF6F133.2090707@aurora.regenstrief.org> Message-ID: <002601c16fc4$e154f8c0$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> Believe it or not, the 36-pin "Centronics"-like connector is probably a Centronics connector. They probably hook to a non-DEC printer, since little else used that connector. Of course, with DEC, you never know. Dick ----- Original Message ----- From: "Gunther Schadow" To: ; Sent: Saturday, November 17, 2001 4:22 PM Subject: BC16D-25 cable, what's that? > Hi, > > I have a big pile of DEC BC16D-25 cable. It has one Centronics > like connector on each end. The connectors have 36 pins. I have > absolutely no clue what these cables are for. They came with > my recent VAX treck that included a VAX6000 cluster and a > DEC Server 90. > > If you know what this cable is used for or if you want it, > please let me know. I have at least one or 2 dozen of those. > If nobody wants it I'll probably have to throw it out. > > regards > -Gunther > > > -- > Gunther Schadow, M.D., Ph.D. gschadow@regenstrief.org > Medical Information Scientist Regenstrief Institute for Health Care > Adjunct Assistant Professor Indiana University School of Medicine > tel:1(317)630-7960 http://aurora.regenstrief.org > > > From allain at panix.com Sat Nov 17 20:02:49 2001 From: allain at panix.com (John Allain) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:23:35 2005 Subject: BC16D-25 cable, what's that? References: <3BF6F133.2090707@aurora.regenstrief.org> Message-ID: <002701c16fd5$2001f180$21fe54a6@ibm23xhr06> > I have a big pile of DEC BC16D-25 cable... > If you know what this cable is used for... I have a BC16C-25. It goes to a H3104 8 serial port connection block for MMJ (RS232). > I have at least one or 2 dozen of those. -25 means feet, doesn't it? That sure is a lot of copper. John A. From Innfogra at aol.com Sun Nov 18 00:58:59 2001 From: Innfogra at aol.com (Innfogra@aol.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:23:35 2005 Subject: Data General One Portable Printer Message-ID: <66.1782eda3.2928b633@aol.com> Here is a nice DG1 Portable printer, 3 hours to go, currently $9.95. http://cgi.ebay.com/aw-cgi/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=1297127236&r=0&t=0& showTutorial=0&ed=1006078740&indexURL=0&rd=1 Paxton From gwynp at artware.qc.ca Sun Nov 18 08:37:16 2001 From: gwynp at artware.qc.ca (gwynp@artware.qc.ca) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:23:35 2005 Subject: OT: paging MAC expert(s) --- What's a Performa? In-Reply-To: <200111180429.WAA77239@opal.tseinc.com> Message-ID: On 18-Nov-2001 Chris wrote: > The list goes on and on. Check www.lowendmac.com for some pointers... > but basically, it can do pretty much everything a "regular" home user > would want. Internet, basic office work, graphics, games Well, if you can find an office suite that works on a 68k processor and don't mind frequent waiting, sure. At one point these computers were top of the line. However, they no longer are. And they aren't old enough nor rare enough to be collectables. Except for the one that sparked this discussion : a 486 in a Mac! YOW! > The 660AV will also allow you to do video in/out, and some video editing > (with the right software). I haven't had the time to get this working. I also don't have a source for video signals to test it. I don't own a TV (I'll fight getting a TV tooth and nail), nor a VCR nor DVD player. I'd rather spend my time hacking or reading. However my SO misses not being able to rent movies, so we're probably going to get a VCR soon. At that point I'll set the Centris up as a display for it. -Philip From celt at chisp.net Sun Nov 18 10:25:12 2001 From: celt at chisp.net (Michael Maginnis) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:23:35 2005 Subject: OT: paging MAC expert(s) --- What's a Performa? References: <200111170039.QAA09132@stockholm.ptloma.edu> <005701c16f11$44e6fb40$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> <000701c16f18$a1924320$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> <3BF6828B.3070106@chisp.net> Message-ID: <3BF7E0E8.8030708@chisp.net> True. It appears that all (?) of the older versions are available on their ftp site... ftp://ftp.aladdinsys.com/pub/_old/mac/StuffIt_Expander/ This directory seems to have versions 4.0 through 6.0.1. Mike Jeff Hellige wrote: > He'd have to make sure he got an older version that supported the > 68k Mac's though, as the current versions are PPC-only and require at > least OS 8.1. I believe I have a 68k version here on an old Earthlink > software CD. That version will work on a 68k Mac with OS 7.0 or above. > > Jeff > >> http://www.aladdinsys.com/ >> >> Richard Erlacher wrote: >> >>> I've downloaded TattleTech, but where, now, do I find the Stuffit >>> Expander? >>> >>> regards, >>> >>> Dick >>> >>> ----- Original Message ----- >>> From: "Jeff Hellige" >>> To: >>> Sent: Friday, November 16, 2001 8:17 PM >>> Subject: Re: OT: paging MAC expert(s) --- What's a Performa? >>> >>> >> >> >> > > From celt at chisp.net Sun Nov 18 10:35:09 2001 From: celt at chisp.net (Michael Maginnis) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:23:35 2005 Subject: OT: paging MAC expert(s) --- What's a Performa? References: <200111171759.JAA11106@stockholm.ptloma.edu> <000d01c16f93$9db75d00$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> <002901c16fa3$4342fae0$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> Message-ID: <3BF7E33D.5070801@chisp.net> By that point in the Mac development cycle, Apple had pretty much decided that users easily gaining access to the internals of their machines was a Bad Thing; the so-called 'hacker' mentality of the Apple II days had fallen out of favor. Couldn't let the magic smoke out, you see. The Performa 637CD sitting on the table in the next room was a pain to open, and getting the case off only gave me access to the metal enclosures surrounding the guts of the machine (more screws, sliding, etc). Mike Richard Erlacher wrote: > I'm acquainted with the tabs on the back of the "pizza-box" MAC's, but this > isn't one of them. The tabs on the back allow removal of a small plastic cover > that conceals the handle by means of which the PC board is extracted. It's > apparently a pretty well-thought-out packaging job, unlike most PC's, but I > haven't a clue how to get into the box itself to do things to the drives, etc. > Now, maybe it's not necessary or even advisable to increase the hard disk size, > but, since I have them available I'd do it if there's significant benefit > involved. > > Dick > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Jeff Hellige" > To: > Sent: Saturday, November 17, 2001 11:53 AM > Subject: Re: OT: paging MAC expert(s) --- What's a Performa? > > > From edick at idcomm.com Sun Nov 18 11:06:29 2001 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:23:35 2005 Subject: OT: paging MAC expert(s) --- What's a Performa? References: <200111171759.JAA11106@stockholm.ptloma.edu> <000d01c16f93$9db75d00$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> <002901c16fa3$4342fae0$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> <3BF7E33D.5070801@chisp.net> Message-ID: <001901c17053$5d748b80$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> Well, I've got the technical reference, thanks to Jim Arnott, and it has PICTURES! I should have no trouble doing this if it turns out to be necessary. Dick ----- Original Message ----- From: "Michael Maginnis" To: Sent: Sunday, November 18, 2001 9:35 AM Subject: Re: OT: paging MAC expert(s) --- What's a Performa? > By that point in the Mac development cycle, Apple had pretty much > decided that users easily gaining access to the internals of their > machines was a Bad Thing; the so-called 'hacker' mentality of the Apple > II days had fallen out of favor. Couldn't let the magic smoke out, you > see. > > The Performa 637CD sitting on the table in the next room was a pain to > open, and getting the case off only gave me access to the metal > enclosures surrounding the guts of the machine (more screws, sliding, etc). > > Mike > > Richard Erlacher wrote: > > > I'm acquainted with the tabs on the back of the "pizza-box" MAC's, but this > > isn't one of them. The tabs on the back allow removal of a small plastic cover > > that conceals the handle by means of which the PC board is extracted. It's > > apparently a pretty well-thought-out packaging job, unlike most PC's, but I > > haven't a clue how to get into the box itself to do things to the drives, etc. > > Now, maybe it's not necessary or even advisable to increase the hard disk size, > > but, since I have them available I'd do it if there's significant benefit > > involved. > > > > Dick > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: "Jeff Hellige" > > To: > > Sent: Saturday, November 17, 2001 11:53 AM > > Subject: Re: OT: paging MAC expert(s) --- What's a Performa? > > > > > > > > > > > > From jhellige at earthlink.net Sun Nov 18 12:25:41 2001 From: jhellige at earthlink.net (Jeff Hellige) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:23:35 2005 Subject: OT: paging MAC expert(s) --- What's a Performa? In-Reply-To: <3BF7E33D.5070801@chisp.net> References: <200111171759.JAA11106@stockholm.ptloma.edu> <000d01c16f93$9db75d00$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> <002901c16fa3$4342fae0$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> <3BF7E33D.5070801@chisp.net> Message-ID: >The Performa 637CD sitting on the table in the next room was a pain >to open, and getting the case off only gave me access to the metal >enclosures surrounding the guts of the machine (more screws, >sliding, etc). Actually, other than some of the low-end models from the mid-90's, and of course the early compact Mac's, most of the cases have been pretty easy to get into. Examples are the 6100, all of the G3/G4 minitowers, and even the Color Classic with it's slide-out mainboard. The current tower cases are a dream to work in with the way the mainboard drops down with the side panel. Of course, some of the most horrid case designs were those like the 8500/9500 series where you had to remove the whole mainboard from the machine to do something as simple as a cache or RAM upgrade. Jeff -- Home of the TRS-80 Model 2000 FAQ File http://www.cchaven.com http://www.geocities.com/siliconvalley/lakes/6757 From edick at idcomm.com Sun Nov 18 13:06:06 2001 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:23:35 2005 Subject: OT: paging MAC expert(s) --- What's a Performa? References: <200111171759.JAA11106@stockholm.ptloma.edu> <000d01c16f93$9db75d00$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> <002901c16fa3$4342fae0$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> <3BF7E33D.5070801@chisp.net> Message-ID: <000d01c17064$133893c0$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> That box looks to be quite straightforward to crack open, judging by the exploded view in the tech ref. You can easily walk on the water if you know where the rocks are. Dick ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jeff Hellige" To: Sent: Sunday, November 18, 2001 11:25 AM Subject: Re: OT: paging MAC expert(s) --- What's a Performa? > >The Performa 637CD sitting on the table in the next room was a pain > >to open, and getting the case off only gave me access to the metal > >enclosures surrounding the guts of the machine (more screws, > >sliding, etc). > > Actually, other than some of the low-end models from the > mid-90's, and of course the early compact Mac's, most of the cases > have been pretty easy to get into. Examples are the 6100, all of > the G3/G4 minitowers, and even the Color Classic with it's slide-out > mainboard. The current tower cases are a dream to work in with the > way the mainboard drops down with the side panel. Of course, some of > the most horrid case designs were those like the 8500/9500 series > where you had to remove the whole mainboard from the machine to do > something as simple as a cache or RAM upgrade. > > Jeff > -- > Home of the TRS-80 Model 2000 FAQ File > http://www.cchaven.com > http://www.geocities.com/siliconvalley/lakes/6757 > > From celt at chisp.net Sun Nov 18 10:52:04 2001 From: celt at chisp.net (Michael Maginnis) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:23:35 2005 Subject: OT: paging MAC expert(s) --- What's a Performa? References: <200111152220.fAFMKes32507@narnia.int.dittman.net> <001201c16e2d$7b747d20$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> Message-ID: <3BF7E734.2080305@chisp.net> Here's a pretty good description of what you've got: http://support.info.apple.com/info.apple.com/applespec/applespec.taf?RID=80 Mike Richard Erlacher wrote: > I had a mental lapse today and, as I was unloading the stuff in my car, noticed > that I had, among the rest of the stuff, a pretty complete Mac Performa 630CD. > This found its way into my car because it was fairly complete, i.e. included > keyboard/mouse, monitor, modem, color printer, cables, etc. including some > documentation including CD's, registration doc's, instructions, etc. I'm > curious what interesting hardware I should find in the box? Is the hard disk > worth salvaging? What sort of memory is likely to be found inside? > > Any suggestions as to how best to exploit this thing? I noticed among the > documentation that it apparently has the ability to process PC diskettes and run > some PC software. What does that include? > > Dick > > > From edick at idcomm.com Sun Nov 18 11:43:40 2001 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:23:35 2005 Subject: OT: paging MAC expert(s) --- What's a Performa? References: <200111152220.fAFMKes32507@narnia.int.dittman.net> <001201c16e2d$7b747d20$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> <3BF7E734.2080305@chisp.net> Message-ID: <000701c17058$8f7188e0$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> Yes, I saw that. What's still a little murky is how best to exploit the thing in the context of "normal" (if there is such a thing) home computing. I certainly don't know what's normal. There's software installed that's undocumented (unsupported by registration doc's), so it will have to go, but I'm not interested in going out and buying software to load the thing up so that it can do some basic correspondence. They both have Claris Works loaded, but since there's no CD and no doc, I have to say it's got to be flushed. Too bad since that purports to have all the stuff that's needed. There's even a (single) copy of the manual suggesting that the software stayed wherever these boxes came from. (makes my skin crawl to end a sentence with a preposition, but it would sound too "stilted" to construct the sentence correctly ... ) You've gathered by now, I'm sure, that there were actually two complete systems rather than just one. One has a Stylewriter II and the other has a Color Stylewriter 2400, not that I know what the differences are. Unlike what I originally read the drive size to be, these are, indeed, the minimally equipped Performa 630CD, with a CD, 8 MB of RAM and a 250 MB hard disk. They have essentially useless (2400 Baud) GV Teleport Bronze modems, which I guess I'll upgrade in order to make the system useful for internet browsing, and I suppose it won't hurt to upgrade the things to 36 MB of RAM. I'm still in the throes of figuring out how, exactly to equip these things with "legal" software, or at least useable software that I can install myself, so that I can get back to where I started if I have to, without having to make a major investment. I've had some useful suggestions, and I'll get back to doing this stuff after Turkey Day, since I have to put away my toys in the meantime. My SO knows where I sleep, so I have to do this ... ... the sacrifices one makes ... Dick ----- Original Message ----- From: "Michael Maginnis" To: Sent: Sunday, November 18, 2001 9:52 AM Subject: Re: OT: paging MAC expert(s) --- What's a Performa? > Here's a pretty good description of what you've got: > > http://support.info.apple.com/info.apple.com/applespec/applespec.taf?RID=80 > > Mike > > Richard Erlacher wrote: > > > I had a mental lapse today and, as I was unloading the stuff in my car, noticed > > that I had, among the rest of the stuff, a pretty complete Mac Performa 630CD. > > This found its way into my car because it was fairly complete, i.e. included > > keyboard/mouse, monitor, modem, color printer, cables, etc. including some > > documentation including CD's, registration doc's, instructions, etc. I'm > > curious what interesting hardware I should find in the box? Is the hard disk > > worth salvaging? What sort of memory is likely to be found inside? > > > > Any suggestions as to how best to exploit this thing? I noticed among the > > documentation that it apparently has the ability to process PC diskettes and run > > some PC software. What does that include? > > > > Dick > > From dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com Sun Nov 18 09:18:37 2001 From: dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com (Douglas Quebbeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:23:35 2005 Subject: Control Data Cyber 960 rescue interest? Message-ID: <7A9BACCEF0171D4FB77019F5104CDD3722592C@jeffserver.tegjeff.com> Would you be willing to post a digital pic or two? I know someone who may be able to use these as spares for his system, if they're from the right equipment. -dq > Speaking of CDC, among the junk I'm cleaning out of my basement there's a > partial backplane out > of an old CDC something-or-other, connected to a panel with 2 > AC outlets > (Monitor & Data Set), a fuse and a DB25 for the Data Set. > There's also an > acoustic delay line and a large resistor/diode > matrix board which I think came from the same piece. Maybe a 60's era > terminal??? > > 3 rows of cards; the two top rows A & B have 25 slots for 4 > 1/2x6", double > sided 31 edge > connectors cards, some with 10 test points along the edge and each > populated with one or two > dozen gold 10 pin TO5 cans marked M (as in Motorola) 115, > 116, 117, 118 > with what I assume are > date codes like 6624, 6644, and 6636. > > The bottom row, C, 32 slots, contains a few smaller cards with pin > connectors that appear to be > some kind of programming cards, just containing jumper wires. > > Anybody recognize these and maybe even have a use for a card > or two, or can > I throw them out > without feeling guilty? > > mike > > > From r.stek at snet.net Sun Nov 18 10:20:58 2001 From: r.stek at snet.net (Bob Stek) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:23:35 2005 Subject: Votrax Message-ID: <000601c1704d$024f51f0$0201a8c0@bob> Ed - I think I may be able to help. I have several units - a Type 'N Talk and a Personal Speech System. Which model do you have? If it's the TNT, here is an online manual: http://members.tripod.com/werdav/txtospm1.html If it's the PSS, I'll need a few days to dig it out. Bob Stek Saver of Lost Sols From cmcmanis at mcmanis.com Sun Nov 18 13:09:14 2001 From: cmcmanis at mcmanis.com (Chuck McManis) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:23:35 2005 Subject: BC16D-25 cable, what's that? In-Reply-To: <3BF6F133.2090707@aurora.regenstrief.org> Message-ID: <5.0.0.25.2.20011118110414.023dec20@209.185.79.193> At 06:22 PM 11/17/01 -0500, Gunther Schadow wrote: >I have a big pile of DEC BC16D-25 cable. ... >If you know what this cable is used for or if you want it, >please let me know. Hi Gunthar, These cables are used to connect a CXA16 and some other 8 port DEC cards (the time share card for the VAXServer come to mind) to something called a "harmonica block" this is a box that has one of those centronics connectors on it on one side and 8 MMJ ports on the other. Currently NetBSD does not support the CXA16 but VMS does and I've got one as my multiuser demo system. The cables come in a couple of flavors, in one, one of the centronics has a right angle configuration to allow it to be used with a BA213 with the door on. In another both ends are right angles. I've not seen one that was straight on both ends but DEC made a _lot_ of different cables. Did you get a pile of harmonica blocks with the cables? --Chuck From mythtech at Mac.com Sun Nov 18 13:19:19 2001 From: mythtech at Mac.com (Chris) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:23:35 2005 Subject: OT: paging MAC expert(s) --- What's a Performa? Message-ID: <200111181919.NAA82668@opal.tseinc.com> >They both have Claris Works loaded, but since >there's no CD and no doc, I have to say it's got to be flushed. NO NO NO NO... Claris Works shipped with EVERY performa... but since it was an Apple product, it was tied into that damn Backup program, and no install disks were supplied. (There should be a simple manual, but the previous owners may have lost it). Don't flush it, it is legal (and again, I can supply you with a replacement copy if need be, it came with Claris Works version 2.1) >One has a Stylewriter II and the other has a Color >Stylewriter 2400, not that I know what the differences are. The 2400 is the better of the two. Check Apple's web site for specs. The goofy catch with the 2400 is, it has no direct printer driver, you need to use the driver for the 2500 (go figure) > They have >essentially useless (2400 Baud) GV Teleport Bronze modems, which I guess I'll >upgrade in order to make the system useful for internet browsing If you are dumping the GV Bronze modems, I would be interested in aquiring them from you. They are FANTASTIC fax modems, so I use them on old Mac SE's as fax stations. >I'm still in the throes of figuring out how, exactly to equip these things >with >"legal" software Accordng to Apple, the 630CD comes with a Restore CD. Run that, and you will get all the shipped "legal" software the machine came with. The 630CD shipped with the following software: Performa 630CD - M3424LL/A ? ? ? ? ? Includes ClarisWorks 2.1, American ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ?Heritage Dictionary 3rd Edition, Quicken ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ?4, MacLink Translators, Mac Gallery Clip ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ?Art, Click Art Performa Collection, ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ?KidWorks 2, Thinkin' Things, The Writing ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ?Center, Spectre Challenger, Spin Doctor ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ?Lite, TelePort Fax Send, At Ease 2.0, PC ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ?Exchange, and eWorld. It also orginally shipped with System 7.1, but 7.5.5 is now free off Apple's web site, so you can upgrade to it without legal fear. If you don't have the restore CD, let me know, I can look and see if I have one. -chris From classiccmp at knm.yi.org Sun Nov 18 08:27:45 2001 From: classiccmp at knm.yi.org (Matt London) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:23:37 2005 Subject: Cypher F880 docs anywhere? (and anyone .uk with spare tapes?) Message-ID: Hi guys, I've got a Cypher F880 tape drive here, and I was wondering if the docs made it onto the net anywhere :&) As an aside - I don't have any tapes - so if there's anyone in the UK with some tapes I could have, I'd be most grateful :&) Thanks, -- Matt --- Web Page: http://knm.yi.org/ http://pkl.net/~matt/ PGP Key fingerprint = 00BF 19FE D5F5 8EAD 2FD5 D102 260E 8BA7 EEE4 8D7F PGP Key http://knm.yi.org/matt-pgp.html From gmphillips at earthlink.net Sun Nov 18 15:27:37 2001 From: gmphillips at earthlink.net (John Galt) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:23:37 2005 Subject: Intel C8080A chip brings $565 on EBAY Message-ID: <000c01c17077$dbd0adf0$0100a8c0@sys1> Well, it was one of only two known rare purple Intel C8080A's I am always in the market to buy rare old Intel microprocessors and support chips. If you have any old Intel 4004, 8008, 4040, or 8080 microprocessors laying around, I want them. Also buying old EPROMS (C1702's, etc), RAM (C3101, C1101, C1103, etc), clock chips, etc). Contact me at gmphillips@earthlink.net -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20011118/250cb7a7/attachment.html From gmphillips at earthlink.net Sun Nov 18 16:02:48 2001 From: gmphillips at earthlink.net (John Galt) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:23:37 2005 Subject: Intel C8080A chip brings $565 on EBAY References: <000c01c17077$dbd0adf0$0100a8c0@sys1> Message-ID: <000b01c1707c$c362eb20$0100a8c0@sys1> Link: http://cgi.ebay.com/aw-cgi/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=1296402506 ----- Original Message ----- From: John Galt To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org Sent: Sunday, November 18, 2001 4:27 PM Subject: Intel C8080A chip brings $565 on EBAY Well, it was one of only two known rare purple Intel C8080A's I am always in the market to buy rare old Intel microprocessors and support chips. If you have any old Intel 4004, 8008, 4040, or 8080 microprocessors laying around, I want them. Also buying old EPROMS (C1702's, etc), RAM (C3101, C1101, C1103, etc), clock chips, etc). Contact me at gmphillips@earthlink.net -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20011118/0c86af96/attachment.html From rhblakeman at kih.net Sun Nov 18 18:51:18 2001 From: rhblakeman at kih.net (Russ Blakeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:23:37 2005 Subject: Intel C8080A chip brings $565 on EBAY In-Reply-To: <000b01c1707c$c362eb20$0100a8c0@sys1> Message-ID: Excuse my ignorance but even at the fact that it's a purple ceramic - is this like a prototype or one of Intel's first runs or something that makes it worth more than most new processors? -----Original Message----- From: owner-classiccmp@classiccmp.org [mailto:owner-classiccmp@classiccmp.org]On Behalf Of John Galt Sent: Sunday, November 18, 2001 4:03 PM To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org Subject: Re: Intel C8080A chip brings $565 on EBAY Link: http://cgi.ebay.com/aw-cgi/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=1296402506 ----- Original Message ----- From: John Galt To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org Sent: Sunday, November 18, 2001 4:27 PM Subject: Intel C8080A chip brings $565 on EBAY Well, it was one of only two known rare purple Intel C8080A's I am always in the market to buy rare old Intel microprocessors and support chips. If you have any old Intel 4004, 8008, 4040, or 8080 microprocessors laying around, I want them. Also buying old EPROMS (C1702's, etc), RAM (C3101, C1101, C1103, etc), clock chips, etc). Contact me at gmphillips@earthlink.net -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20011118/454cbc42/attachment.html From gmphillips at earthlink.net Sun Nov 18 19:56:51 2001 From: gmphillips at earthlink.net (John Galt) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:23:37 2005 Subject: Intel C8080A chip brings $565 on EBAY References: Message-ID: <001101c1709d$7564c800$0100a8c0@sys1> Actually, it's an very late date C8080A. Probably one of the last batches produced. As for "why" is it more valuable than a normal white ceramic C8080A, that's like asking "why" is a "rare" purple Beanie Baby doll worth $500 when the "common" white one is only worth $1. It would be the same thing as if a factory made "Red" IMSAI 8080 showed up for sale on EBAY and there were only two known to exist. There would be collectors willing to pay more for it than the "common" blue IMSAI 8080. It's all supply and demand. As more and more people get into chip collecting it is starting to drive up the prices on the harder to find chips. For example, these are the prices being asked (and paid) for some of the harder to find old Intel and Intel second source chips in NOS condition: Some of the valuable early Intel chips include: Intel C4004 - $200-$300 Intel C4004 with gray traces - $250-$500 Intel C4004 prototype with gray traces and wood laminate cap - $3000+ (beware of fakes) Intel P4004 gray DIP - $150 Intel C4040 - $300-$500 Intel P4040 gray dip - $150 Intel G8008 - $300+ ('G' prefix is not a typo) Intel 8008 - $300+ (No prefix is not a typo) Intel C8080 - $1000+ Intel C8080-8 - $600+ Intel D8080 - $600+ Intel P8080 - $400+ Intel C3101, C1101, C1103 - $150-$300 Intel C8085 - $350 (No 'A' suffix) Intel C8085A or C8086 - $250 Intel C1702 - $250 (No 'A' suffix) Some of the valuable Intel 2nd source chips include: Microsystems International MF8008 - $300 Siemens SAB8008-1C - $300 SAB8008-1D - $300 SAB8008-2-P - $300 National Semiconductor INS4004D - $250 If you have any of these chips and you want to get rid of them, send me an email. ----- Original Message ----- From: Russ Blakeman To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org Sent: Sunday, November 18, 2001 7:51 PM Subject: RE: Intel C8080A chip brings $565 on EBAY Excuse my ignorance but even at the fact that it's a purple ceramic - is this like a prototype or one of Intel's first runs or something that makes it worth more than most new processors? -----Original Message----- From: owner-classiccmp@classiccmp.org [mailto:owner-classiccmp@classiccmp.org]On Behalf Of John Galt Sent: Sunday, November 18, 2001 4:03 PM To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org Subject: Re: Intel C8080A chip brings $565 on EBAY Link: http://cgi.ebay.com/aw-cgi/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=1296402506 ----- Original Message ----- From: John Galt To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org Sent: Sunday, November 18, 2001 4:27 PM Subject: Intel C8080A chip brings $565 on EBAY Well, it was one of only two known rare purple Intel C8080A's I am always in the market to buy rare old Intel microprocessors and support chips. If you have any old Intel 4004, 8008, 4040, or 8080 microprocessors laying around, I want them. Also buying old EPROMS (C1702's, etc), RAM (C3101, C1101, C1103, etc), clock chips, etc). Contact me at gmphillips@earthlink.net -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20011118/efe7cb00/attachment.html From foo at siconic.com Sun Nov 18 19:39:28 2001 From: foo at siconic.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:23:37 2005 Subject: Intel C8080A chip brings $565 on EBAY In-Reply-To: <000b01c1707c$c362eb20$0100a8c0@sys1> Message-ID: On Sun, 18 Nov 2001, John Galt wrote: > Link: > > http://cgi.ebay.com/aw-cgi/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=1296402506 We've found the new reigning All-time Undisputed World Champion Idiot. Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org From gmphillips at earthlink.net Sun Nov 18 20:17:40 2001 From: gmphillips at earthlink.net (John Galt) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:23:37 2005 Subject: Intel C8080A chip brings $565 on EBAY References: Message-ID: <001301c170a0$5e49fcf0$0100a8c0@sys1> Why are chip collectors so frowned upon on this mailing list? Do you guys think us chip collectors are out here busting up Intelec's, Altairs, and IMSAI's to get the chips out of them or something? We are legitimate collectors just like you guys are. Most "normal" people would say you guys are idiots for preserving and collecting old computers and paying 2K+ for an old IMSAI 8080. Give me a break. Better yet, give me all those old "worthless" purple C8080A's you have laying around. I'll give you $1 ea. for them so you won't feel like you're taking advantage of an "idiot". ----- Original Message ----- From: "Sellam Ismail" To: Sent: Sunday, November 18, 2001 8:39 PM Subject: Re: Intel C8080A chip brings $565 on EBAY > On Sun, 18 Nov 2001, John Galt wrote: > > > Link: > > > > http://cgi.ebay.com/aw-cgi/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=1296402506 > > We've found the new reigning All-time Undisputed World Champion Idiot. > > Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival > -------------------------------------------------------------------------- ---- > International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org > From jpero at sympatico.ca Sun Nov 18 15:55:05 2001 From: jpero at sympatico.ca (jpero@sympatico.ca) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:23:37 2005 Subject: Intel C8080A chip brings $565 on EBAY In-Reply-To: <001301c170a0$5e49fcf0$0100a8c0@sys1> Message-ID: <20011119025154.HEKA10804.tomts19-srv.bellnexxia.net@duron> > From: "John Galt" > To: > Subject: Re: Intel C8080A chip brings $565 on EBAY > Date: Sun, 18 Nov 2001 21:17:40 -0500 > Reply-to: classiccmp@classiccmp.org > Why are chip collectors so frowned upon on this mailing list? Do you guys > think us chip collectors are out here busting up Intelec's, Altairs, and > IMSAI's to get the chips out of them or something? > > We are legitimate collectors just like you guys are. What is your intentions?! Collectors is catch-all word, some good some bad! > > Most "normal" people would say you guys are idiots > for preserving and collecting old computers and paying > 2K+ for an old IMSAI 8080. That $2K for Imsai is the supply and demand fostered by clueless but greedy people who wanted to make this a collection stuff as a cash cow than simply using it and fixing it and play with it, that latter is amirable, former is frowned upon. Also Imsai is buggy and botched up box. There's better built and properly designed S-100 boxens to play with. Your original message didn't introduce yourself clearly first. The way the message was written, sounded like business, intentions of making $ and this message also doesn't reflect of these people on this CC list. This is exactly what speared thru that wasp nest and angry wasps flying out. > > Give me a break. Not a chance!...you have lot to explain to that CC list then that uproar will settle down. Cheers, Wizard From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Sun Nov 18 07:02:29 2001 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (Ben Franchuk) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:23:37 2005 Subject: Intel C8080A chip brings $565 on EBAY References: <20011119025154.HEKA10804.tomts19-srv.bellnexxia.net@duron> Message-ID: <3BF7B165.8D0DB730@jetnet.ab.ca> jpero@sympatico.ca wrote: > That $2K for Imsai is the supply and demand fostered by clueless but > greedy people who wanted to make this a collection stuff as a cash > cow than simply using it and fixing it and play with it, that > latter is amirable, former is frowned upon. Also Imsai is buggy and > botched up box. There's better built and properly designed S-100 > boxens to play with. > Well the whole S-100 bus was a mess for the longest time. As reminder IMSAI is back in business at http://www.imsai.net/ Here you can get parts for your classic 8080 computer or a new 20MHZ Z80 S-100 bus computer for around $1K. Why pay $2k for a 2 MHZ 8080 when you can get a 20 MHZ version for half the price. :) Ben Franchuk. -- Live "Pre-historic Cpu's" -- and you thought they were extinct. www.jetnet.ab.ca/users/bfranchuk/index.html From gmphillips at earthlink.net Sun Nov 18 21:43:15 2001 From: gmphillips at earthlink.net (John Galt) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:23:37 2005 Subject: Intel C8080A chip brings $565 on EBAY References: <20011119025154.HEKA10804.tomts19-srv.bellnexxia.net@duron> Message-ID: <001501c170ac$5276fca0$0100a8c0@sys1> Let's see... My "Intentions"... Well, I am a chip collector. I want chips. I want you to sell them to me. I will offer you more than you might think they are worth. If you do not need some old chips you have laying around, then here's a chance for you to get rid of them and make a few bucks in the process. Will I turn around and try and sell the chips I bought from you at a profit? I might. If you sell me a chip for 5$ that I already have and collectors are paying $500 for it, then yes, I will sell it or better yet, trade it for a chip I do not have that I would have had to have paid $500 for otherwise. "Clueless and greedy" people? Hmmm. I might be "clueless" (some here have proclaimed me an idiot) but I do not consider myself "greedy". The C8080A bid went that high because two collectors wanted it and there was only one available. There was no "greed" involved. "The way the message was written, sounded like business, intentions of making $". My intent was to demonstrate that you guys should come off that stash of old chips you have squireled away. They are not doing you any good and there is a community of chip collectors who would love to get their hands on them. But then, they are not here at the moment and I am, so I am more than willing to "distribute" them to legitimate collectors for you. In otherwords, I am willing to be the "middleman". I buy the chips from you (for more than you think they are worth) and I then put them in the hands of legitmate chip collectors. You get some cash and get to know that your old chips will be preserved and enjoyed by others instead of sitting in some box in your garage. Will I make money on the deal? I might, but if I do, I'll just use it to buy other chips I do not have from other collectors. Most collectors obtain most of there chips thru trading. But that only works if you have chips to trade. I don't have any old computers to trade so I offer you cash instead. However, if you do need a chip, there's a good chance I can find it for you. In fact, I've got a special this week. Purple C8080A's for only $600 ea. - Just kidding! I can get you the white and gold ones for less than that. Besides, why do you need a C8080A when a P8080A will work just as well? I can get those for $5. In reality, most of the chips you might need can be obtained at very reasonable prices or by simply trading one of us a chip we do not already have. ----- Original Message ----- From: To: Sent: Sunday, November 18, 2001 4:55 PM Subject: Re: Intel C8080A chip brings $565 on EBAY > > From: "John Galt" > > To: > > Subject: Re: Intel C8080A chip brings $565 on EBAY > > Date: Sun, 18 Nov 2001 21:17:40 -0500 > > Reply-to: classiccmp@classiccmp.org > > > Why are chip collectors so frowned upon on this mailing list? Do you guys > > think us chip collectors are out here busting up Intelec's, Altairs, and > > IMSAI's to get the chips out of them or something? > > > > We are legitimate collectors just like you guys are. > > What is your intentions?! Collectors is catch-all word, some good > some bad! > > > > > Most "normal" people would say you guys are idiots > > for preserving and collecting old computers and paying > > 2K+ for an old IMSAI 8080. > > That $2K for Imsai is the supply and demand fostered by clueless but > greedy people who wanted to make this a collection stuff as a cash > cow than simply using it and fixing it and play with it, that > latter is amirable, former is frowned upon. Also Imsai is buggy and > botched up box. There's better built and properly designed S-100 > boxens to play with. > > Your original message didn't introduce yourself clearly first. > The way the message was written, sounded like business, intentions of > making $ and this message also doesn't reflect of these people on > this CC list. This is exactly what speared thru that wasp nest and > angry wasps flying out. > > > > > Give me a break. > > Not a chance!...you have lot to explain to that CC list then > that uproar will settle down. > > Cheers, > > Wizard From rhblakeman at kih.net Sun Nov 18 22:24:01 2001 From: rhblakeman at kih.net (Russ Blakeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:23:37 2005 Subject: Intel C8080A chip brings $565 on EBAY In-Reply-To: <001501c170ac$5276fca0$0100a8c0@sys1> Message-ID: Hopefully this is in response to another comment about "idiots" and not mine. I see your point as a collector and why this is an out of the ordinary one for your collection. I personally don't place that much value on the chip but then I don't see a million plus bucks for a wooden humidor that an ex-president had either, regardless of of historical (sometimes deemed "hysterical" )value. I do see what the resale value is on occasion for things I get and don't personally want as I am a cash collector myself - not as a person that is a numismatic, just a money lover/hoarder. besides cash stores easier than computers and I don't have to plug cash in or troubleshoot it, but I do love to tinker so I have the computers as well. -> -----Original Message----- -> From: owner-classiccmp@classiccmp.org -> [mailto:owner-classiccmp@classiccmp.org]On Behalf Of John Galt -> Sent: Sunday, November 18, 2001 9:43 PM -> To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org -> Subject: Re: Intel C8080A chip brings $565 on EBAY -> -> -> Let's see... -> -> My "Intentions"... Well, I am a chip collector. I want chips. -> I want you -> to sell them to me. I will offer you -> more than you might think they are worth. If you do -> not need some old chips you have laying around, then -> here's a chance for you to get rid of them and make a few -> bucks in the process. Will I turn around and try and sell -> the chips I bought from you at a profit? I might. If you -> sell me a chip for 5$ that I already have and collectors -> are paying $500 for it, then yes, I will sell it or better -> yet, trade it for a chip I do not have that I would have had to have paid -> $500 for otherwise. -> -> "Clueless and greedy" people? Hmmm. I might be "clueless" -> (some here have -> proclaimed me an idiot) but -> I do not consider myself "greedy". The C8080A bid went -> that high because two collectors wanted it and there was only -> one available. -> There was no "greed" involved. -> -> "The way the message was written, sounded like business, intentions of -> making $". -> -> My intent was to demonstrate that you guys should come off that -> stash of old -> chips you have squireled away. -> They are not doing you any good and there is a community of chip -> collectors -> who would love to get -> their hands on them. But then, they are not here at the moment -> and I am, so -> I am more than willing to "distribute" -> them to legitimate collectors for you. In otherwords, -> I am willing to be the "middleman". I buy the chips from -> you (for more than you think they are worth) and I then -> put them in the hands of legitmate chip collectors. -> You get some cash and get to know that your old chips -> will be preserved and enjoyed by others instead of -> sitting in some box in your garage. Will I make money -> on the deal? I might, but if I do, I'll just use it to buy -> other chips I do not have from other collectors. Most -> collectors obtain most of there chips thru trading. But -> that only works if you have chips to trade. I don't have -> any old computers to trade so I offer you cash instead. -> -> However, if you do need a chip, there's a good chance -> I can find it for you. In fact, I've got a special this week. -> Purple C8080A's for only $600 ea. - Just kidding! I can get you -> the white -> and gold ones for less than that. -> Besides, why do you need a C8080A when a P8080A will work just as well? I -> can get those for $5. -> -> In reality, most of the chips you might need can be obtained at very -> reasonable prices or by simply trading -> one of us a chip we do not already have. -> -> ----- Original Message ----- -> From: -> To: -> Sent: Sunday, November 18, 2001 4:55 PM -> Subject: Re: Intel C8080A chip brings $565 on EBAY -> -> -> > > From: "John Galt" -> > > To: -> > > Subject: Re: Intel C8080A chip brings $565 on EBAY -> > > Date: Sun, 18 Nov 2001 21:17:40 -0500 -> > > Reply-to: classiccmp@classiccmp.org -> > -> > > Why are chip collectors so frowned upon on this mailing list? Do you -> guys -> > > think us chip collectors are out here busting up Intelec's, -> Altairs, and -> > > IMSAI's to get the chips out of them or something? -> > > -> > > We are legitimate collectors just like you guys are. -> > -> > What is your intentions?! Collectors is catch-all word, some good -> > some bad! -> > -> > > -> > > Most "normal" people would say you guys are idiots -> > > for preserving and collecting old computers and paying -> > > 2K+ for an old IMSAI 8080. -> > -> > That $2K for Imsai is the supply and demand fostered by clueless but -> > greedy people who wanted to make this a collection stuff as a cash -> > cow than simply using it and fixing it and play with it, that -> > latter is amirable, former is frowned upon. Also Imsai is buggy and -> > botched up box. There's better built and properly designed S-100 -> > boxens to play with. -> > -> > Your original message didn't introduce yourself clearly first. -> > The way the message was written, sounded like business, intentions of -> > making $ and this message also doesn't reflect of these people on -> > this CC list. This is exactly what speared thru that wasp nest and -> > angry wasps flying out. -> > -> > > -> > > Give me a break. -> > -> > Not a chance!...you have lot to explain to that CC list then -> > that uproar will settle down. -> > -> > Cheers, -> > -> > Wizard -> -> From marvin at rain.org Sun Nov 18 23:07:26 2001 From: marvin at rain.org (Marvin Johnston) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:23:37 2005 Subject: Intel C8080A chip brings $565 on EBAY References: <001301c170a0$5e49fcf0$0100a8c0@sys1> Message-ID: <3BF8938E.E9272FE3@rain.org> John Galt wrote: > > Why are chip collectors so frowned upon on this mailing list? Do you guys > think us chip collectors are out here busting up Intelec's, Altairs, and > IMSAI's to get the chips out of them or something? > > We are legitimate collectors just like you guys are. Don't worry about the flack from the peanut gallery :). I, for one, found the information you posted earlier about the collectibility of chips rather fascinating. This is an area I didn't really know existed, and I am curious about it. From Diff at Mac.com Sun Nov 18 20:24:16 2001 From: Diff at Mac.com (Zach Malone) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:23:37 2005 Subject: Intel C8080A chip brings $565 on EBAY References: Message-ID: <001101c170a1$57278d60$6501a8c0@laboffice> Either a lot of people canceled their bids, or that guy bid himself up to 505$, when no one else had bid. (http://cgi6.ebay.com/aw-cgi/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewBids&item=1296402506). Zach ----- Original Message ----- From: "Sellam Ismail" To: Sent: Sunday, November 18, 2001 8:39 PM Subject: Re: Intel C8080A chip brings $565 on EBAY > On Sun, 18 Nov 2001, John Galt wrote: > > > Link: > > > > http://cgi.ebay.com/aw-cgi/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=1296402506 > > We've found the new reigning All-time Undisputed World Champion Idiot. > > Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival > -------------------------------------------------------------------------- ---- > International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org > From gmphillips at earthlink.net Sun Nov 18 21:15:54 2001 From: gmphillips at earthlink.net (John Galt) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:23:37 2005 Subject: Intel C8080A chip brings $565 on EBAY References: <001101c170a1$57278d60$6501a8c0@laboffice> Message-ID: <000d01c170a8$807bfaf0$0100a8c0@sys1> Actually, the chip was offered by a well known German collector. He found two of these chips. He kept one and put the other on EBAY. I was bidding against another american collector who probably has the largest collection of old microprocessors in the USA. We were the only two bidders. Other collectors were interested in the chip (several emailed me) and did not bid because they knew who was going to be bidding on the chip. I know the guy I was bidding against. We have traded chips in the past. I raised my bid once before he ever bid because I was expecting that he would try and take the chip in the final seconds of the auction. Instead he bid once, outbid my high bid, I came back and started bidding (multiple times) until I finally took the high bid, and that was that, Before you dismiss us chip collectors as a bunch of "idiots", you might take a few minutes and check out some of the sites springing up on the net dedicated to chip collecting. A good example is www.cpu-museum.com ----- Original Message ----- From: "Zach Malone" To: Sent: Sunday, November 18, 2001 9:24 PM Subject: Re: Intel C8080A chip brings $565 on EBAY > Either a lot of people canceled their bids, or that guy bid himself up > to 505$, when no one else had bid. > (http://cgi6.ebay.com/aw-cgi/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewBids&item=1296402506). > Zach > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Sellam Ismail" > To: > Sent: Sunday, November 18, 2001 8:39 PM > Subject: Re: Intel C8080A chip brings $565 on EBAY > > > > On Sun, 18 Nov 2001, John Galt wrote: > > > > > Link: > > > > > > http://cgi.ebay.com/aw-cgi/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=1296402506 > > > > We've found the new reigning All-time Undisputed World Champion Idiot. > > > > Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer > Festival > > -------------------------------------------------------------------------- > ---- > > International Man of Intrigue and Danger > http://www.vintage.org > > > From jhellige at earthlink.net Sun Nov 18 21:20:11 2001 From: jhellige at earthlink.net (Jeff Hellige) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:23:37 2005 Subject: Intel C8080A chip brings $565 on EBAY In-Reply-To: <001101c170a1$57278d60$6501a8c0@laboffice> References: <001101c170a1$57278d60$6501a8c0@laboffice> Message-ID: > Either a lot of people canceled their bids, or that guy bid himself up >to 505$, when no one else had bid. >(http://cgi6.ebay.com/aw-cgi/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewBids&item=1296402506). Actually, he likely placed a high proxy bid and then the 2nd bidder came along at 5:31 and placed a fairly large bid, which took the original guy a bit of bidding to finally get over. Jeff -- Home of the TRS-80 Model 2000 FAQ File http://www.cchaven.com http://www.geocities.com/siliconvalley/lakes/6757 From jruschme at Mac.com Sun Nov 18 17:22:41 2001 From: jruschme at Mac.com (John Ruschmeyer) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:23:37 2005 Subject: OT: paging MAC expert(s) --- What's a Performa? In-Reply-To: <200111180435.WAA77279@opal.tseinc.com> Message-ID: > Date: Sat, 17 Nov 2001 11:13:51 -0700 > From: "Richard Erlacher" > Subject: Re: OT: paging MAC expert(s) --- What's a Performa? > > Right now, I'm pretty concerned about how to crack open the box without > breaking > it, so I can inspect the hard disk to see what it is, physically. Does > anybody > have a recipe for doing that? I think I saw someone offer you the service manual. If not, contact me off-line for a copy (pdf). In short, on the underside of the front bezel are two tabs. You need to use a large flat screwdriver, in a twistint motion, to release them. At that point, the whole front should come off. The hard drive is behind a shield under the floppy drive. IIRC, you need to remove one screw to remove the shield. The drive is on a sled with a release tab. > Moreover, I imagine I'll use one of the considerably larger IDE types I've set > aside from PC use to replace the drives now in the machines. It's safe to > assume, however, that NOT any IDE drive will work, since Apple Computers, Inc. > didn't like folks buying hardware at a resonable price from someone else > rather > than allowing Apple to gouge them. (part of the MAC culture, I guess) True for SCSI drives. Oddly enough, Apple's Drive Setup will deal with pretty much any IDE drive. I > note, > also, that the CDROM is SCSI. That being the case, I'd like to see whether > there's room for a SCSI HDD in the box. There certainly is room in the system > (logically). That would work even better, since I have lots of extra SCSI > drives. The problem is, that in the 630 series, the only internal connectors to the SCSI chain are in the CD-ROM bay. Better to stay with IDE drives internally (nothing to stop you from an external SCSI drive). > Have any of you MAC gurus got experience with replacing MAC IDE > drives? You're limited to PIO mode 3 (max). Also, Western Digital drives over about 1.2GB don't seem to work correctly. Mine has a 3GB Seagate drive, though it came to me with a 600mb WD drive and I briefly installed a 500mb Quantum. The big thing you need is a copy of Drive Setup. > It looks as though the drives in the boxes are 250 MB or so, which might be > adequate for some things, but I doubt it would be adequate for internet > activity. Hmm... I think that's a matter of perspective. MacOS and a browser will fit well enough. Just not a lot of room left for downloads, etc. <<>> From JLYoda at aol.com Sun Nov 18 19:50:07 2001 From: JLYoda at aol.com (JLYoda@aol.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:23:37 2005 Subject: (no subject) Message-ID: Where can I purchase Mattell football 2 1978? -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20011118/049ee6a8/attachment.html From gehrich at tampabay.rr.com Sun Nov 18 20:26:54 2001 From: gehrich at tampabay.rr.com (Gene Ehrich) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:23:37 2005 Subject: Mattell football 2 1978 In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <4.3.2.7.2.20011118212611.00adeae0@pop3.norton.antivirus> At 08:50 PM 11/18/01 -0500, you wrote: >Where can I purchase Mattell football 2 1978? for what platform? --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- gene@ehrich.com gehrich@tampabay.rr.com P.O. Box 3365 Spring Hill Florida 34611-3365 http://www.voicenet.com/~generic Computer & Video Game Garage Sale From jhellige at earthlink.net Sun Nov 18 21:15:58 2001 From: jhellige at earthlink.net (Jeff Hellige) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:23:37 2005 Subject: Mattell football 2 1978 In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.2.20011118212611.00adeae0@pop3.norton.antivirus> References: <4.3.2.7.2.20011118212611.00adeae0@pop3.norton.antivirus> Message-ID: >At 08:50 PM 11/18/01 -0500, you wrote: >>Where can I purchase Mattell football 2 1978? > >for what platform? It's a handheld videogame. Mattel, Entex, and Coleco did quite well with that market with a number of different games at about that time. Jeff -- Home of the TRS-80 Model 2000 FAQ File http://www.cchaven.com http://www.geocities.com/siliconvalley/lakes/6757 From spectre at stockholm.ptloma.edu Sun Nov 18 21:29:06 2001 From: spectre at stockholm.ptloma.edu (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:23:37 2005 Subject: Mattell football 2 1978 In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.2.20011118212611.00adeae0@pop3.norton.antivirus> from Gene Ehrich at "Nov 18, 1 09:26:54 pm" Message-ID: <200111190329.TAA08652@stockholm.ptloma.edu> > >Where can I purchase Mattell football 2 1978? > > for what platform? It's not a cartridge, it's one of the original Mattel Electronics handhelds that predated the Intellivision. -- ----------------------------- personal page: http://www.armory.com/~spectre/ -- Cameron Kaiser, Point Loma Nazarene University * ckaiser@stockholm.ptloma.edu -- The faster we go, the rounder we get. -- The Grateful Dead, on relativity -- From SUPRDAVE at aol.com Sun Nov 18 21:07:19 2001 From: SUPRDAVE at aol.com (SUPRDAVE@aol.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:23:37 2005 Subject: Mattell football 2 1978 Message-ID: <88.f75fddd.2929d167@aol.com> In a message dated 11/18/2001 9:37:31 PM Eastern Standard Time, gehrich@tampabay.rr.com writes: << At 08:50 PM 11/18/01 -0500, you wrote: >Where can I purchase Mattell football 2 1978? for what platform? >> I'm sure he's talking a handheld game. From fmc at reanimators.org Sun Nov 18 21:55:33 2001 From: fmc at reanimators.org (Frank McConnell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:23:37 2005 Subject: Corvus Floppy Drive? In-Reply-To: "Curt Vendel"'s message of "Wed, 14 Nov 2001 10:51:15 -0500" References: <001f01c16ca0$2af63430$0a00a8c0@cvendel> <200111140047.fAE0l1O57491@daemonweed.reanimators.org> <000d01c16cb6$24381f30$0a00a8c0@cvendel> <200111140358.fAE3wSv62823@daemonweed.reanimators.org> <001801c16d24$31e954f0$3135ff0a@cvendel> Message-ID: <200111190355.fAJ3tXE34985@daemonweed.reanimators.org> "Curt Vendel" wrote: (Re: Corvus floppy disk controllers) > If you run across the schematic I would be willing to pay for any copying > and postage, thanks again Frank. Take a look at: http://www.reanimators.org/tmp/corvus-fdc.d300.tiff http://www.reanimators.org/tmp/corvus-fdc.d600.tiff Both are TIFF class F group 4 scans, one is at 300 DPI, one is at 600 DPI. The "original" that I have is a crappy photocopy so, well, good luck reading them. I'll talk to Al and see if he wants to adopt these or point me to a better scan. The 8" floppy controller also has a space on the board for a 34-pin connector, but it's not stuffed. I got this controller and schematic from an advertisement in Computer Shopper in the mid-to-late 1980s, offering an 8" floppy controller for the Apple ][. Sadly, at the time I didn't have a WDC 1793 data sheet so my efforts at programming the thing were frustrated and I got distracted by other things. Then there's the 5.25" floppy drive. I got that out too and had a look at it. The drive is a Corvus model FLP-5, Rev C, s/n 404-G1018-. It's a metal upright case screwed together and to a half-height 5.25" floppy drive, in this case a TEC FB504 (which is a double-sided "quad density" 720KB drive, so I'm guessing 96 tracks per inch) strapped for DS0 and with terminating resistor pack installed. The 5.25" drive is connected to a different controller. The silkscreen on the board calls it a "BUFFERED FLOPPY CONTROLLER", and there's a handwritten part number, "8010-10149 REV A". It's laid out differently and is clearly a different design: it's got a NEC D765AC FDC, and also has a power connector through which the controller card supplies power to the drive; the power cable and a 34-pin flat cable are bundled together in a sort of plastic zip-lock wrapper. I've no idea what this 5.25" drive was used with. Along about 1996 there were some cleanouts of cupboards and storage rooms at The Wollongong Group (where I worked at the time), and there was this drive and controller (which I got) and a Corvus hard disk (which I didn't get). I didn't see a Concept there. I do know that several folks came from Corvus to Wollongong in the mid-1980s (before I got there) and guess that they brought this stuff with them. -Frank McConnell From auction888 at sohu.com Sun Nov 18 22:56:10 2001 From: auction888 at sohu.com (China panyu Auction LTD) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:23:37 2005 Subject: Auction Message-ID: <1006145770.23@pacific.net.hk> Guangzhou Panyu Hengli Resort of Agriculture is going to be wholly auctioned at the company lobby on 28th November 2001 because of reformation of town-owned enterprises. Occupying 4000 mu, standing aside the mouth of Pearl River and with convenient transportation, Panyu Hengli Resort of Agriculture is ranked as an Essential Well-plan Spot and Important Sign Seeing Resort in Guangzhou's Ninth Five-year plan. Besides having wonderful tour environment of living, holiday, tourism and entertainment it also has potential development of real easte. The resort is evaluated over RMB 170 million and will be auctioned starting at 50% of evaluation price,I,e,RMB85,000,000.The auction method will be Holland style (from high to low). Please contact our company for auction registration with valid certificate. Contact telephone£º(86-20)84816037 (86-20)84811117 E-mail:auction@ciaa.com.cn Address£º602 No.45 Fanhua Road, Shiqiao Town, Panyu,Guangzhou,China URL: www.ciaa.com.cn GUANGZHOU PANYU AUCTION LTD. From kyrrin at bluefeathertech.com Sun Nov 18 23:08:21 2001 From: kyrrin at bluefeathertech.com (Bruce Lane) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:23:37 2005 Subject: Tape drives claimed, thanks much. Message-ID: <200111182108210630.0209305A@192.168.42.129> All three tape drives (both 9-trackers and the Giagstore) have been spoken for. My thanks to all those who mailed in about them, and to the list participants for bearing with my ad(s). -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- Bruce Lane, Owner & Head Hardware Heavy, Blue Feather Technologies -- http://www.bluefeathertech.com ARS KC7GR (Formerly WD6EOS) since 12-77 -- kyrrin@bluefeathertech.com "I'll get a life when someone demonstrates that it would be superior to what I have now..." (Taki Kogoma, aka Gym Z. Quirk) From stanb at dial.pipex.com Sun Nov 18 13:27:14 2001 From: stanb at dial.pipex.com (Stan Barr) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:23:37 2005 Subject: OT: paging MAC expert(s) --- What's a Performa? In-Reply-To: Your message of "Sun, 18 Nov 2001 10:43:40 MST." <000701c17058$8f7188e0$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> Message-ID: <200111181927.TAA15747@citadel.metropolis.local> > Yes, I saw that. What's still a little murky is how best to exploit the thing > in the context of "normal" (if there is such a thing) home computing. I > certainly don't know what's normal. There's software installed that's > undocumented (unsupported by registration doc's), so it will have to go, but I'm > not interested in going out and buying software to load the thing up so that it > can do some basic correspondence. They both have Claris Works loaded, but since > there's no CD and no doc, I have to say it's got to be flushed. Too bad since > that purports to have all the stuff that's needed. There's even a (single) copy > of the manual suggesting that the software stayed wherever these boxes came > from. (makes my skin crawl to end a sentence with a preposition, but it would > sound too "stilted" to construct the sentence correctly ... ) These machines shipped with Claris Works pre-installed and on the system CD - at least they did here in the UK. Claris Works is real easy to use and comes with comprehensive on-line help - click on the question mark icon, top right, when in Claris Works. I still use it for my normal word processing, you don't need much horsepower for that! Video equipped models also came with Avid Videoshop. -- Cheers, Stan Barr stanb@dial.pipex.com The future was never like this! From jss at subatomix.com Sun Nov 18 23:30:02 2001 From: jss at subatomix.com (Jeffrey S. Sharp) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:23:37 2005 Subject: Auction In-Reply-To: <1006145770.23@pacific.net.hk> Message-ID: <20011118232701.F20390-100000@lepton.subatomix.com> On Mon, 19 Nov 2001, China panyu Auction LTD wrote: > Guangzhou Panyu Hengli Resort of Agriculture is [blah blah ...] Can non-subscribers post to this list? If not, it looks like the spammers are getting smarter. Now, where did I put my thermonuclear weaponry? -- Jeffrey S. Sharp jss@subatomix.com From foo at siconic.com Mon Nov 19 00:23:15 2001 From: foo at siconic.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:23:37 2005 Subject: Intel C8080A chip brings $565 on EBAY In-Reply-To: <000c01c17077$dbd0adf0$0100a8c0@sys1> Message-ID: On Sun, 18 Nov 2001, John Galt wrote: > Well, it was one of only two known rare purple Intel C8080A's Do you care to explain this? It certainly doesn't look purple in the photo. How do you know it is only one of two? Known by whom? Where do they come from? If it is purple, why? What's the significance? > If you have any old Intel 4004, 8008, 4040, or 8080 microprocessors > laying around, I want them. Sorry, I'm keeping mine. If I wanted them to end up on eBay I'd put them there myself. Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org From foo at siconic.com Mon Nov 19 00:30:12 2001 From: foo at siconic.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:23:37 2005 Subject: Intel C8080A chip brings $565 on EBAY In-Reply-To: <001301c170a0$5e49fcf0$0100a8c0@sys1> Message-ID: On Sun, 18 Nov 2001, John Galt wrote: > Why are chip collectors so frowned upon on this mailing list? Do you > guys think us chip collectors are out here busting up Intelec's, > Altairs, and IMSAI's to get the chips out of them or something? Speaking personally, the whole thing seems rather silly. It seems to be collecting for the sake of collecting (Collect all 5 Spastastically Juicy colors!) with no regards towards significance. It looks to be Yet Another Silly Fad. Everyone will get their fill, the market will collapse, and people will move on to something else to turn a buck on. It happened with comic books, beanie babies, and old computers. > We are legitimate collectors just like you guys are. There's no such thing as a legitimate collector ;) > Give me a break. No. > Better yet, give me all those old "worthless" purple C8080A's you have > laying around. I'll give you $1 ea. for them so you won't feel like > you're taking advantage of an "idiot". What if I paint one of mine Day-Glo Green? Does it automatically shoot up in value to $5000? Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org From gmphillips at earthlink.net Mon Nov 19 06:34:44 2001 From: gmphillips at earthlink.net (John Galt) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:23:37 2005 Subject: Intel C8080A chip brings $565 on EBAY References: Message-ID: <002d01c170f6$92a86620$0100a8c0@sys1> There's a rather small community of chip collectors. However, there are a few collectors who have been collecting for over 10 years now who have put togather pretty vast collections of literally thousands of chips. These collectors have pretty much seen everything. Its pretty rare now that something shows up that these collectors have never seen before and the fact that they have never seen it, by definiton makes it rare. It would be the same as if suddenly someone found two Intelec bit slice 3002 computers dated 1975 in a closet or something. Sure, there might could be more, but if they were common, you guys would have already seen one. As far as the color, chip collectors refer to that color chip as "purple". If you look at it next to a normal "gray" CerDIP, you can see the difference. Besides, it would not have mattered had it been black. The fact is, it's not the white/gold color of a normal Intel C8080A. The printing on the chip is also somewhat different. My guess is it's a late run C8080A that was put in the same package they used for some of the later C8085AH's. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Sellam Ismail" To: Sent: Monday, November 19, 2001 1:23 AM Subject: Re: Intel C8080A chip brings $565 on EBAY > On Sun, 18 Nov 2001, John Galt wrote: > > > Well, it was one of only two known rare purple Intel C8080A's > > Do you care to explain this? > > It certainly doesn't look purple in the photo. > > How do you know it is only one of two? Known by whom? Where do they come > from? If it is purple, why? What's the significance? > > > If you have any old Intel 4004, 8008, 4040, or 8080 microprocessors > > laying around, I want them. > > Sorry, I'm keeping mine. If I wanted them to end up on eBay I'd put them > there myself. > > Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival > -------------------------------------------------------------------------- ---- > International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org > > From news at kostecke.net Mon Nov 19 07:05:56 2001 From: news at kostecke.net (news) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:23:37 2005 Subject: No subject Message-ID: Newsgroups: mailinglist.classiccmp Path: gateway From: gmphillips@earthlink.net (John Galt) Subject: Re: Intel C8080A chip brings $565 on EBAY Date: 19 Nov 01 12:34:44 GMT Sender: Steve Kostecke MIME-Version: 1.0 Message-ID: <002d01c170f6$92a86620$0100a8c0@sys1> X-Priority: 3 Distribution: local X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4522.1200 Reply-To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org X-Mailing-List: classiccmp X-Mimeole: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4522.1200 X-Fetchmail-Warning: recipient address classiccmp@classiccmp.org didn't match any local name Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" X-Msmail-Priority: Normal Lines: 61 References: Organization: kostecke.net mail2news gateway X-Authentication-Warning: opal.tseinc.com: majordom set sender to owner-classiccmp@classiccmp.org using -f Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit There's a rather small community of chip collectors. However, there are a few collectors who have been collecting for over 10 years now who have put togather pretty vast collections of literally thousands of chips. These collectors have pretty much seen everything. Its pretty rare now that something shows up that these collectors have never seen before and the fact that they have never seen it, by definiton makes it rare. It would be the same as if suddenly someone found two Intelec bit slice 3002 computers dated 1975 in a closet or something. Sure, there might could be more, but if they were common, you guys would have already seen one. As far as the color, chip collectors refer to that color chip as "purple". If you look at it next to a normal "gray" CerDIP, you can see the difference. Besides, it would not have mattered had it been black. The fact is, it's not the white/gold color of a normal Intel C8080A. The printing on the chip is also somewhat different. My guess is it's a late run C8080A that was put in the same package they used for some of the later C8085AH's. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Sellam Ismail" To: Sent: Monday, November 19, 2001 1:23 AM Subject: Re: Intel C8080A chip brings $565 on EBAY > On Sun, 18 Nov 2001, John Galt wrote: > > > Well, it was one of only two known rare purple Intel C8080A's > > Do you care to explain this? > > It certainly doesn't look purple in the photo. > > How do you know it is only one of two? Known by whom? Where do they come > from? If it is purple, why? What's the significance? > > > If you have any old Intel 4004, 8008, 4040, or 8080 microprocessors > > laying around, I want them. > > Sorry, I'm keeping mine. If I wanted them to end up on eBay I'd put them > there myself. > > Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival > -------------------------------------------------------------------------- ---- > International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org > > From foo at siconic.com Mon Nov 19 00:48:16 2001 From: foo at siconic.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:23:37 2005 Subject: Intel C8080A chip brings $565 on EBAY In-Reply-To: <000d01c170a8$807bfaf0$0100a8c0@sys1> Message-ID: On Sun, 18 Nov 2001, John Galt wrote: > I was bidding against another american collector who probably has the > largest collection of old microprocessors in the USA. Does this include microprocessors that are actually inside a machine? If so, then I claim that title :) Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org From foo at siconic.com Mon Nov 19 00:55:35 2001 From: foo at siconic.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:23:37 2005 Subject: Intel C8080A chip brings $565 on EBAY In-Reply-To: <001501c170ac$5276fca0$0100a8c0@sys1> Message-ID: On Sun, 18 Nov 2001, John Galt wrote: > "Clueless and greedy" people? Hmmm. I might be "clueless" (some here > have proclaimed me an idiot) but I do not consider myself "greedy". > The C8080A bid went that high because two collectors wanted it and > there was only one available. There was no "greed" involved. Dude, chill. Why are you so defensive about this? If you think collecting CPUs is a thrilling and worthwhile hobby then more power to you. Why do you seem to need external validation? Everyone has an opinion about everything. If you're happy with what you're doing then go with it. > My intent was to demonstrate that you guys should come off that stash > of old chips you have squireled away. They are not doing you any good > and there is a community of chip collectors who would love to get > their hands on them. What good will they do collectors? Sit there and look pretty? I think that most collectors here would rather hang on to their chips in case they are needed some day. > But then, they are not here at the moment and I am, so I am more than > willing to "distribute" them to legitimate collectors for you. In > otherwords, I am willing to be the "middleman". I buy the chips from > you (for more than you think they are worth) and I then put them in > the hands of legitmate chip collectors. Most of us here know how to use eBay too. > Besides, why do you need a C8080A when a P8080A will work just as > well? I can get those for $5. Why do you need a C8080A? To complete your Beanie set? > In reality, most of the chips you might need can be obtained at very > reasonable prices or by simply trading one of us a chip we do not > already have. Or by visiting one of the numerous electronics surplus shops throughout the country. Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org From optimus at canit.se Mon Nov 19 05:36:18 2001 From: optimus at canit.se (Iggy Drougge) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:23:38 2005 Subject: Intel C8080A chip brings $565 on EBAY In-Reply-To: <001301c170a0$5e49fcf0$0100a8c0@sys1> Message-ID: <1378.723T900T7564421optimus@canit.se> John Galt skrev: Well, on the topic of idiots, top-quoting is not the smartest thing to do... >Why are chip collectors so frowned upon on this mailing list? Do you guys >think us chip collectors are out here busting up Intelec's, Altairs, and >IMSAI's to get the chips out of them or something? You aren't? >We are legitimate collectors just like you guys are. Only you collect rubbish. >Most "normal" people would say you guys are idiots >for preserving and collecting old computers and paying >2K+ for an old IMSAI 8080. I suppose they are. 2000 dollars is a lot of money. >Give me a break. >Better yet, give me all those old "worthless" purple C8080A's you have >laying around. I'll give you >$1 ea. for them so you won't feel like you're taking advantage of an >"idiot". If I had one, I think I'd rather be looking for an idiot than giving themaway, I'm afraid. Now, looking at old computer chips can be fun for a while, but they are essentially worthless, unless you are of an inclination similar to Tony's and have got an electron microscope. They are meant to run computers, not to sit there and do nothing. I have the same stance on people who collect computers and game just for keeping them, instead of using them. -- En ligne avec Thor 2.6a. Schont die Sockel, wenn ihr die Denkm?ler st?rzt. Sie k?nnten noch gebraucht werden. --- Stanislaw Jerzy Lec From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Sun Nov 18 10:13:51 2001 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (Ben Franchuk) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:23:38 2005 Subject: Intel C8080A chip brings $565 on EBAY References: Message-ID: <3BF7DE3F.7297792F@jetnet.ab.ca> Sellam Ismail wrote: > > We are legitimate collectors just like you guys are. > There's no such thing as a legitimate collector ;) I collect junk, does that count? I find that objects sold on ebay seems be over priced with starting bids. Most items that sell are priced way out of my budget. Case in point - a uncommon computer game sold for over $60. The same game sells for $35 new. Go figure. Ben Franchuk. -- Save the whales -- collect the whole set! From jhellige at earthlink.net Mon Nov 19 06:25:45 2001 From: jhellige at earthlink.net (Jeff Hellige) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:23:38 2005 Subject: Intel C8080A chip brings $565 on EBAY In-Reply-To: <1378.723T900T7564421optimus@canit.se> References: <1378.723T900T7564421optimus@canit.se> Message-ID: <01Nov19.110754est.119248@gateway.mediacen.navy.mil> >Now, looking at old computer chips can be fun for a while, but they are >essentially worthless, unless you are of an inclination similar to Tony's and >have got an electron microscope. They are meant to run computers, not to sit >there and do nothing. I have the same stance on people who collect computers >and game just for keeping them, instead of using them. I really don't see the need for the name calling though as, regardless of motivation, all collectors are helping to preserve items that would otherwise likely get tossed as trash. We all have different interests, motivations and goals but the end result is very much the same. In the future, one of us may need the assistance of one of these chip collectors in order to aquire some obscure chip we can't find anywhere else. Jeff -- Home of the TRS-80 Model 2000 FAQ File http://www.cchaven.com http://www.geocities.com/siliconvalley/lakes/6757 From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Mon Nov 19 07:38:45 2001 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (Allison) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:23:38 2005 Subject: Intel C8080A chip brings $565 on EBAY Message-ID: <003401c170ff$841dc740$6b7b7b7b@ajp> From: John Galt >There's a rather small community of chip collectors. > >However, there are a few collectors who have been >collecting for over 10 years now who have put togather >pretty vast collections of literally thousands of chips. My only concern is they may be collecting junk, IE: chips that look good, may be rare but are DEAD/useless electronically. >It would be the same as if suddenly someone found >two Intelec bit slice 3002 computers dated 1975 in a closet or something. >Sure, there might could be more, but if they were common, you guys would >have already seen one. These were quite common and the basic chipset on an experimentors board was around $495 in 1977. Most were used then relagated to the engineering junk box. So I'd presume when you say rare, your referring to actively traded survivors as SBC colltors like me may already have one (not yet!). >As far as the color, chip collectors refer to that color >chip as "purple". If you look at it next to a normal >"gray" CerDIP, you can see the difference. Besides, >it would not have mattered had it been black. The fact >is, it's not the white/gold color of a normal Intel >C8080A. The printing on the chip is also somewhat different. My guess is >it's a late run C8080A that was It's very late run ceramic. Ceramic for chip substrates only comes from a few vendors one being a beer maker in the rockies a few in the far east and Europe. It was part of the reason why ceramic parts were more expensive and also a near must if the part was required to pass tests for hermetic sealing (military, space or other high stress apps). Ceramic aging/dating: Starting with the 1960s ceramic was white. early White examples were early military Flatpacks(RTL/DTL/TTL) 1101, 1103 ram 1702 eprom first brown parts I'd seen were 2708s brown (light) later dark brown Gray Gray with brownish cast Gray with purplish cast Those were the most common. Eproms were generaltionally in the common ceramic of the time. Allison From edick at idcomm.com Mon Nov 19 09:30:27 2001 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:23:38 2005 Subject: Intel C8080A chip brings $565 on EBAY References: <003401c170ff$841dc740$6b7b7b7b@ajp> Message-ID: <005201c1710f$1f02a640$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> I've got one pretty old MOTOROLA device, in a 40-pin DIP, the identity of which is a complete mystery to me. In fact, I may have tossed it not long ago, but all it said on it aside from a MOT date code was "Sample." Maybe it was a mechanincal ... Dick ----- Original Message ----- From: "Allison" To: Sent: Monday, November 19, 2001 6:38 AM Subject: Re: Intel C8080A chip brings $565 on EBAY > From: John Galt > > >There's a rather small community of chip collectors. > > > >However, there are a few collectors who have been > >collecting for over 10 years now who have put togather > >pretty vast collections of literally thousands of chips. > > > My only concern is they may be collecting junk, IE: chips that > look good, may be rare but are DEAD/useless electronically. > > >It would be the same as if suddenly someone found > >two Intelec bit slice 3002 computers dated 1975 in a closet or something. > >Sure, there might could be more, but if they were common, you guys would > >have already seen one. > > > These were quite common and the basic chipset on an experimentors board > was around $495 in 1977. Most were used then relagated to the engineering > junk box. So I'd presume when you say rare, your referring to actively > traded > survivors as SBC colltors like me may already have one (not yet!). > > >As far as the color, chip collectors refer to that color > >chip as "purple". If you look at it next to a normal > >"gray" CerDIP, you can see the difference. Besides, > >it would not have mattered had it been black. The fact > >is, it's not the white/gold color of a normal Intel > >C8080A. The printing on the chip is also somewhat different. My guess is > >it's a late run C8080A that was > > > It's very late run ceramic. Ceramic for chip substrates only comes from a > few > vendors one being a beer maker in the rockies a few in the far east and > Europe. > It was part of the reason why ceramic parts were more expensive and also > a near must if the part was required to pass tests for hermetic sealing > (military, > space or other high stress apps). > > Ceramic aging/dating: > > Starting with the 1960s ceramic was white. > > early White > > examples were > early military Flatpacks(RTL/DTL/TTL) > 1101, 1103 ram > 1702 eprom > > first brown parts I'd seen were 2708s > > brown (light) > later dark brown > Gray > Gray with brownish cast > Gray with purplish cast > > Those were the most common. Eproms were generaltionally in the common > ceramic of the time. > > Allison > > > > > > From allain at panix.com Mon Nov 19 08:05:09 2001 From: allain at panix.com (John Allain) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:23:38 2005 Subject: Intel C8080A chip brings $565 on EBAY References: <1378.723T900T7564421optimus@canit.se> Message-ID: <004801c17103$330b3e60$8a0101ac@ibm23xhr06> >Why are chip collectors so frowned upon on this mailing list? One respondant doesn't represent the whole list, as you are now learning. If you are new here then welcome. John A. If you aren't, then my apologies. From jfoust at threedee.com Mon Nov 19 08:32:46 2001 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:23:38 2005 Subject: Intel C8080A chip brings $565 on EBAY In-Reply-To: <001301c170a0$5e49fcf0$0100a8c0@sys1> References: Message-ID: <5.0.0.25.0.20011119083154.0240e1a8@pc> At 09:17 PM 11/18/2001 -0500, you wrote: >Better yet, give me all those old "worthless" purple C8080A's you have >laying around. I'll give you >$1 ea. for them so you won't feel like you're taking advantage of an >"idiot". No, these complainers about the free market's prices are just sad that their warehouse is full of junk that doesn't fetch high prices. I can't believe that any nerd on this mailing list would denigrate a chip collector. It's like the original Swiftian little-endian versus big-endian argument. But then again, maybe I think this way only because if I'm going to junk a piece of unusable computer equipment, or if I discover an unrecoverable wreck, I'll always yank the interesting chips. On the other hand, wearing a name tag that says "John Galt" in a room full of techies is an unpardonably cheesy offense. - John From dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com Mon Nov 19 08:37:03 2001 From: dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com (Douglas Quebbeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:23:38 2005 Subject: Intel C8080A chip brings $565 on EBAY Message-ID: <7A9BACCEF0171D4FB77019F5104CDD37225930@jeffserver.tegjeff.com> > It's very late run ceramic. Ceramic for chip substrates only comes from a > few vendors one being a beer maker in the rockies a few in the far east and > Europe. heh... actually, Adolph Coors spun-off its non-brewery assets in 1992 into ACX Technologies, and most recently, CoorsTek (formerly Coors Ceramics) was spun-off into a wholly separate company on Jan 1, 2000. -dq From edick at idcomm.com Mon Nov 19 09:34:59 2001 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:23:38 2005 Subject: Intel C8080A chip brings $565 on EBAY References: <7A9BACCEF0171D4FB77019F5104CDD37225930@jeffserver.tegjeff.com> Message-ID: <006401c1710f$bfd2dcc0$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> Back in the early days of 64k DRAMs, the COORS ceramics were described as having too much radioactivity for use in high-density memories. I'm not sure that was, in fact, the case, but somebody seems to have thought so. Do you suppose they fixed that? Coors was a leader, in the '60's in porcelain tooling and other such oddities, not to mention having "perfected" the draw-and-iron process for making thin-walled aluminum beverage cans. Dick ----- Original Message ----- From: "Douglas Quebbeman" To: Sent: Monday, November 19, 2001 7:37 AM Subject: RE: Intel C8080A chip brings $565 on EBAY > > It's very late run ceramic. Ceramic for chip substrates only comes from a > > few vendors one being a beer maker in the rockies a few in the far east and > > Europe. > > heh... actually, Adolph Coors spun-off its non-brewery assets in 1992 > into ACX Technologies, and most recently, CoorsTek (formerly Coors > Ceramics) was spun-off into a wholly separate company on Jan 1, 2000. > > -dq > > From edick at idcomm.com Mon Nov 19 09:13:23 2001 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:23:38 2005 Subject: Intel C8080A chip brings $565 on EBAY References: <20011119025154.HEKA10804.tomts19-srv.bellnexxia.net@duron> Message-ID: <001e01c1710c$bb777940$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> It's always a possiblility, John. I scrapped an NBI word processor, saving the 8008 CPU in order to make a tie tack out of it. That was in 1982, however. Not everybody has the same prejudices/viewpoints, hence, some pretty ugly arguments. There are some guys who won't dismember a seemingly irreprarble system just for parts, while, I, for example, see most things as a potential source of parts unless it is readily restorable to working condition. I recently learned that a late model CoCo has a WD1772 in it. I'd quickly remove the FDC and scarp the rest if I had one of those available. That would make some guys' skin crawl. Almost every point in between the extremes has some adherents to that position. Dick ----- Original Message ----- From: To: Sent: Sunday, November 18, 2001 2:55 PM Subject: Re: Intel C8080A chip brings $565 on EBAY > > From: "John Galt" > > To: > > Subject: Re: Intel C8080A chip brings $565 on EBAY > > Date: Sun, 18 Nov 2001 21:17:40 -0500 > > Reply-to: classiccmp@classiccmp.org > > > Why are chip collectors so frowned upon on this mailing list? Do you guys > > think us chip collectors are out here busting up Intelec's, Altairs, and > > IMSAI's to get the chips out of them or something? > > > > We are legitimate collectors just like you guys are. > > What is your intentions?! Collectors is catch-all word, some good > some bad! > > > > > Most "normal" people would say you guys are idiots > > for preserving and collecting old computers and paying > > 2K+ for an old IMSAI 8080. > > That $2K for Imsai is the supply and demand fostered by clueless but > greedy people who wanted to make this a collection stuff as a cash > cow than simply using it and fixing it and play with it, that > latter is amirable, former is frowned upon. Also Imsai is buggy and > botched up box. There's better built and properly designed S-100 > boxens to play with. > > Your original message didn't introduce yourself clearly first. > The way the message was written, sounded like business, intentions of > making $ and this message also doesn't reflect of these people on > this CC list. This is exactly what speared thru that wasp nest and > angry wasps flying out. > > > > > Give me a break. > > Not a chance!...you have lot to explain to that CC list then > that uproar will settle down. > > Cheers, > > Wizard > > From edick at idcomm.com Mon Nov 19 09:28:52 2001 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:23:38 2005 Subject: Intel C8080A chip brings $565 on EBAY References: <1378.723T900T7564421optimus@canit.se> Message-ID: <004a01c1710e$e614fae0$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> Careful, now ... there are lots of guys around who collect old machines with little hope of ever getting them to run, even if they did have the right sort of AC power available. I know at least one such guy who's got several bits of "BigIron" from back when "real men" used mainframes. To me, even the 500 THz Pentium XXV with 64TB of 2 ps RAM and 100 Exabytes of HD space is junk if the PSU is down. I've still got rails and rails of old memory, logic, CPU's etc, and those are "just parts" as far as I'm concerned. I give 'em away when there's a need, and, well, they don't take up as much space as old computers do. Dick ----- Original Message ----- From: "Iggy Drougge" To: "John Galt" Sent: Monday, November 19, 2001 4:36 AM Subject: Re: Intel C8080A chip brings $565 on EBAY > John Galt skrev: > > Well, on the topic of idiots, top-quoting is not the smartest thing to do... > > >Why are chip collectors so frowned upon on this mailing list? Do you guys > >think us chip collectors are out here busting up Intelec's, Altairs, and > >IMSAI's to get the chips out of them or something? > > You aren't? > > >We are legitimate collectors just like you guys are. > > Only you collect rubbish. > > >Most "normal" people would say you guys are idiots > >for preserving and collecting old computers and paying > >2K+ for an old IMSAI 8080. > > I suppose they are. 2000 dollars is a lot of money. > > >Give me a break. > > >Better yet, give me all those old "worthless" purple C8080A's you have > >laying around. I'll give you > >$1 ea. for them so you won't feel like you're taking advantage of an > >"idiot". > > If I had one, I think I'd rather be looking for an idiot than giving themaway, > I'm afraid. > > Now, looking at old computer chips can be fun for a while, but they are > essentially worthless, unless you are of an inclination similar to Tony's and > have got an electron microscope. They are meant to run computers, not to sit > there and do nothing. I have the same stance on people who collect computers > and game just for keeping them, instead of using them. > > -- > En ligne avec Thor 2.6a. > > Schont die Sockel, wenn ihr die Denkm?ler st?rzt. Sie k?nnten noch gebraucht > werden. > --- Stanislaw Jerzy Lec > > > From dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com Mon Nov 19 09:56:26 2001 From: dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com (Douglas Quebbeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:23:38 2005 Subject: Intel C8080A chip brings $565 on EBAY Message-ID: <7A9BACCEF0171D4FB77019F5104CDD37225935@jeffserver.tegjeff.com> > On the other hand, wearing a name tag that says "John Galt" > in a room full of techies is an unpardonably cheesy offense. What would Bob the Lizard say? "...more gin..." -- No Tourbots From dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com Mon Nov 19 10:23:02 2001 From: dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com (Douglas Quebbeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:23:38 2005 Subject: Intel C8080A chip brings $565 on EBAY Message-ID: <7A9BACCEF0171D4FB77019F5104CDD37225936@jeffserver.tegjeff.com> > Back in the early days of 64k DRAMs, the COORS ceramics were described as having > too much radioactivity for use in high-density memories. I'm not sure that was, > in fact, the case, but somebody seems to have thought so. Do you suppose they > fixed that? Coors was a leader, in the '60's in porcelain tooling and other > such oddities, not to mention having "perfected" the draw-and-iron process for > making thin-walled aluminum beverage cans. My 8k EconoRAM IV, one of the first S-100 boards to use DRAM, used the very chips that supposedly had that problem. I've been told mine are OK, but it used to be a bit flaky; however, I always blamed that on the state of the early S-100 systems and my soldering work on the SOL to which it was attached... I solder *much* better now... -dq From edick at idcomm.com Mon Nov 19 10:58:37 2001 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:23:38 2005 Subject: Intel C8080A chip brings $565 on EBAY References: <7A9BACCEF0171D4FB77019F5104CDD37225936@jeffserver.tegjeff.com> Message-ID: <004601c1711b$705a3420$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> I'm not sure that the Econoram IV was one of the boards that used those 64k-bit DRAMs. Did it? This alpha-particle issue didn't come up with the 4K and 16K dram devices. It only surfaced when the density went up to 64K-bits and the supply went to a single 5-volt Vcc. The first context in which I recall the incidence of packaging-induced alpha-particle-hits causing a problem was with 64K-bit DRAMs. There was a component of this problem that was characteristic of the device family, and was later mitigated by adding an XOR buffer (XOR-ing data with one of the address lines) to the data to equalize otherwise random charge distribution throughout the device. Needless to say, I was never convinced, myself, that all the information about the then-new 5-volt-only DRAMs was on the level, as much of it sounded like folklore. The fact that the industry went to a logic fix suggests it wasn't without merit, however. There were plenty of other reasons why various DRAM circuits didn't work terribly well, most dealing with timing and buffering. Once the S-100 became dominated by Z80's, the use of various features of the Z80, not present in the 8080 round which the bus was designed, began to cause interoperability problems on the S-100, as a consequence of which it became advisable to have DRAM boards that were either made or certified by the CPU maker. Several vendors made DRAM boards that worked and played quite well with others, but Godbout/CompuPro was not one of them. One couldn't even rely on those working with older Godbout products in the system. Dick ----- Original Message ----- From: "Douglas Quebbeman" To: Sent: Monday, November 19, 2001 9:23 AM Subject: RE: Intel C8080A chip brings $565 on EBAY > > Back in the early days of 64k DRAMs, the COORS ceramics were described as > having > > too much radioactivity for use in high-density memories. I'm not sure that > was, > > in fact, the case, but somebody seems to have thought so. Do you suppose > they > > fixed that? Coors was a leader, in the '60's in porcelain tooling and other > > such oddities, not to mention having "perfected" the draw-and-iron process > for > > making thin-walled aluminum beverage cans. > > My 8k EconoRAM IV, one of the first S-100 boards to use DRAM, used the > very chips that supposedly had that problem. I've been told mine are > OK, but it used to be a bit flaky; however, I always blamed that on > the state of the early S-100 systems and my soldering work on the SOL > to which it was attached... I solder *much* better now... -dq > > > From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Mon Nov 19 11:12:38 2001 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (Allison) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:23:38 2005 Subject: Intel C8080A chip brings $565 on EBAY Message-ID: <000f01c1711d$6d897600$6b7b7b7b@ajp> >heh... actually, Adolph Coors spun-off its non-brewery assets in 1992 >into ACX Technologies, and most recently, CoorsTek (formerly Coors >Ceramics) was spun-off into a wholly separate company on Jan 1, 2000. > >-dq I know but, in reference to collectable chips it was true to the most part. I just didn't want to wear out the list with minute details. Allison From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Mon Nov 19 11:18:37 2001 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (Allison) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:23:38 2005 Subject: Intel C8080A chip brings $565 on EBAY Message-ID: <002001c1711e$3b1257e0$6b7b7b7b@ajp> Indeed, it may have been a mech sample. I have DEC DCT-310s with ES written on them, they were actual engineering samples for the VT240 team (near same time as Falcon card develpoment). Mine came from when the Engineering junkbox. Allison -----Original Message----- From: Richard Erlacher To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org Date: Monday, November 19, 2001 10:57 AM Subject: Re: Intel C8080A chip brings $565 on EBAY >I've got one pretty old MOTOROLA device, in a 40-pin DIP, the identity of which >is a complete mystery to me. In fact, I may have tossed it not long ago, but >all it said on it aside from a MOT date code was "Sample." Maybe it was a >mechanincal ... > >Dick > >----- Original Message ----- >From: "Allison" >To: >Sent: Monday, November 19, 2001 6:38 AM >Subject: Re: Intel C8080A chip brings $565 on EBAY > > >> From: John Galt >> >> >There's a rather small community of chip collectors. >> > >> >However, there are a few collectors who have been >> >collecting for over 10 years now who have put togather >> >pretty vast collections of literally thousands of chips. >> >> >> My only concern is they may be collecting junk, IE: chips that >> look good, may be rare but are DEAD/useless electronically. >> >> >It would be the same as if suddenly someone found >> >two Intelec bit slice 3002 computers dated 1975 in a closet or something. >> >Sure, there might could be more, but if they were common, you guys would >> >have already seen one. >> >> >> These were quite common and the basic chipset on an experimentors board >> was around $495 in 1977. Most were used then relagated to the engineering >> junk box. So I'd presume when you say rare, your referring to actively >> traded >> survivors as SBC colltors like me may already have one (not yet!). >> >> >As far as the color, chip collectors refer to that color >> >chip as "purple". If you look at it next to a normal >> >"gray" CerDIP, you can see the difference. Besides, >> >it would not have mattered had it been black. The fact >> >is, it's not the white/gold color of a normal Intel >> >C8080A. The printing on the chip is also somewhat different. My guess is >> >it's a late run C8080A that was >> >> >> It's very late run ceramic. Ceramic for chip substrates only comes from a >> few >> vendors one being a beer maker in the rockies a few in the far east and >> Europe. >> It was part of the reason why ceramic parts were more expensive and also >> a near must if the part was required to pass tests for hermetic sealing >> (military, >> space or other high stress apps). >> >> Ceramic aging/dating: >> >> Starting with the 1960s ceramic was white. >> >> early White >> >> examples were >> early military Flatpacks(RTL/DTL/TTL) >> 1101, 1103 ram >> 1702 eprom >> >> first brown parts I'd seen were 2708s >> >> brown (light) >> later dark brown >> Gray >> Gray with brownish cast >> Gray with purplish cast >> >> Those were the most common. Eproms were generaltionally in the common >> ceramic of the time. >> >> Allison >> >> >> >> >> >> > From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Mon Nov 19 11:24:53 2001 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (Allison) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:23:38 2005 Subject: Intel C8080A chip brings $565 on EBAY Message-ID: <004301c17120$22c4cea0$6b7b7b7b@ajp> Not quite true. The Dram problem was one of those "we knew it was comming" due to shrinking geometry items. The source of the radiation was the Gold eutectic braze. The specific radiation was alpha particles. FYI the solution was organic based die overcoat. Testing for the phenomina was undertaken to verify and analyze the phenomina by NEC,IBM and MOTO (to name a few) using initally small geometry 16k single voltage (i2118 style) parts. FYI: the coors ceramic parts were morecostly due to the gold! They however were better for hermetic performance than slab with glass frit sealed packages. Allison -----Original Message----- From: Richard Erlacher To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org Date: Monday, November 19, 2001 11:00 AM Subject: Re: Intel C8080A chip brings $565 on EBAY >Back in the early days of 64k DRAMs, the COORS ceramics were described as having >too much radioactivity for use in high-density memories. I'm not sure that was, >in fact, the case, but somebody seems to have thought so. Do you suppose they >fixed that? Coors was a leader, in the '60's in porcelain tooling and other >such oddities, not to mention having "perfected" the draw-and-iron process for >making thin-walled aluminum beverage cans. > >Dick > >----- Original Message ----- >From: "Douglas Quebbeman" >To: >Sent: Monday, November 19, 2001 7:37 AM >Subject: RE: Intel C8080A chip brings $565 on EBAY > > >> > It's very late run ceramic. Ceramic for chip substrates only comes from a >> > few vendors one being a beer maker in the rockies a few in the far east and >> > Europe. >> >> heh... actually, Adolph Coors spun-off its non-brewery assets in 1992 >> into ACX Technologies, and most recently, CoorsTek (formerly Coors >> Ceramics) was spun-off into a wholly separate company on Jan 1, 2000. >> >> -dq >> >> > > From edick at idcomm.com Mon Nov 19 12:23:47 2001 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:23:38 2005 Subject: Intel C8080A chip brings $565 on EBAY References: <004301c17120$22c4cea0$6b7b7b7b@ajp> Message-ID: <001901c17127$5692a980$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> I don't remember that explanation, though I guess it could be plausible. What I remember reading was that, since western Colorado and eastern Utah, where they were getting some of their materials was also an area of relatively high concentration of radioactive minerals, which certainly lines up with the 1950's activity in uranium prospecting/mining in that area. It was easy for me to buy into during that period. The problem was found in almost all ceramic packages made from materials acquired in that part of the country, so it seemed reasonable enough. It doesn't matter now, of course. Dick ----- Original Message ----- From: "Allison" To: Sent: Monday, November 19, 2001 10:24 AM Subject: Re: Intel C8080A chip brings $565 on EBAY > Not quite true. > > The Dram problem was one of those "we knew it was comming" due > to shrinking geometry items. The source of the radiation was the Gold > eutectic braze. The specific radiation was alpha particles. FYI the > solution was organic based die overcoat. Testing for the phenomina was > undertaken to verify and analyze the phenomina by NEC,IBM and MOTO > (to name a few) using initally small geometry 16k single voltage (i2118 > style) parts. > > FYI: the coors ceramic parts were morecostly due to the gold! They > however were better for hermetic performance than slab with glass frit > sealed packages. > > Allison > > -----Original Message----- > From: Richard Erlacher > To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org > Date: Monday, November 19, 2001 11:00 AM > Subject: Re: Intel C8080A chip brings $565 on EBAY > > > >Back in the early days of 64k DRAMs, the COORS ceramics were described as > having > >too much radioactivity for use in high-density memories. I'm not sure that > was, > >in fact, the case, but somebody seems to have thought so. Do you suppose > they > >fixed that? Coors was a leader, in the '60's in porcelain tooling and > other > >such oddities, not to mention having "perfected" the draw-and-iron process > for > >making thin-walled aluminum beverage cans. > > > >Dick > > > >----- Original Message ----- > >From: "Douglas Quebbeman" > >To: > >Sent: Monday, November 19, 2001 7:37 AM > >Subject: RE: Intel C8080A chip brings $565 on EBAY > > > > > >> > It's very late run ceramic. Ceramic for chip substrates only comes > from a > >> > few vendors one being a beer maker in the rockies a few in the far east > and > >> > Europe. > >> > >> heh... actually, Adolph Coors spun-off its non-brewery assets in 1992 > >> into ACX Technologies, and most recently, CoorsTek (formerly Coors > >> Ceramics) was spun-off into a wholly separate company on Jan 1, 2000. > >> > >> -dq > >> > >> > > > > > > From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Mon Nov 19 11:31:09 2001 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (Allison) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:23:38 2005 Subject: Intel C8080A chip brings $565 on EBAY Message-ID: <004401c17120$28dc4160$6b7b7b7b@ajp> back then I was involved in that stuff and 99% of the Dram problems were design related and not alpha particle. To see the alpha particle in real apps you'd need a box that had thouands of them running 7x24 for weeks! S100 systems that ran that well were prone to the power company failing to deliver before ram failure was a problem! Back in that time frame I used static ram due to the general flakyness I preceived of most S100 cards. The best S100 ram I'd used for that time frame (1980) had an 8202( Netronics DRAM using 16Ks). Allison From: Douglas Quebbeman >> Back in the early days of 64k DRAMs, the COORS ceramics were described as >having >> too much radioactivity for use in high-density memories. I'm not sure that >was, >> in fact, the case, but somebody seems to have thought so. Do you suppose >they >> fixed that? Coors was a leader, in the '60's in porcelain tooling and other >> such oddities, not to mention having "perfected" the draw-and-iron process >for >> making thin-walled aluminum beverage cans. > >My 8k EconoRAM IV, one of the first S-100 boards to use DRAM, used the >very chips that supposedly had that problem. I've been told mine are >OK, but it used to be a bit flaky; however, I always blamed that on >the state of the early S-100 systems and my soldering work on the SOL >to which it was attached... I solder *much* better now... -dq > From edick at idcomm.com Mon Nov 19 12:43:47 2001 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:23:38 2005 Subject: Intel C8080A chip brings $565 on EBAY References: <004401c17120$28dc4160$6b7b7b7b@ajp> Message-ID: <001d01c1712a$1fcd5500$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> Gee, Allison, that's not how I remember that stuff at all. We had a dozen or more machines running a really thorough memory tests in the early '80's and the purpose was to quantify the difference in error rates between ceramic and plastic parts. In order to do that, all you needed was a big enough DRAM array, and you'd see them at a rate of about one or two per minute from among those machines. Of course we'd be using about 8 boards measuring about 16" x 22" with 288 devices per board, then tracking the locations of the corrected errors. If you used plastic parts, the error rate dropped, comparatively, by about 90%. That's the reason the problem was so widely discussed. It's odd that it doesn't exist anymore, with the typcial home computer having about as much RAM nowadays as all the computers in the world had when I was in college. BTW, that entire problem went almost completely away once the DRAMs were redesigned with that checkerboarding mod I mentioned. Dick ----- Original Message ----- From: "Allison" To: Sent: Monday, November 19, 2001 10:31 AM Subject: Re: Intel C8080A chip brings $565 on EBAY > back then I was involved in that stuff and 99% of the Dram problems were > design > related and not alpha particle. To see the alpha particle in real apps > you'd need > a box that had thouands of them running 7x24 for weeks! S100 systems that > ran > that well were prone to the power company failing to deliver before ram > failure was > a problem! > > Back in that time frame I used static ram due to the general flakyness I > preceived > of most S100 cards. The best S100 ram I'd used for that time frame (1980) > had an 8202( Netronics DRAM using 16Ks). > That board (I've still got a couple, 1 still unbuilt) was very, Very, VERY slow, and used somebody's rather lame DRAM controller IC. The boards from CCS had timing adquate for use with 64K parts if you didn't mind making the mod's, AND they worked. The stock and unmodified version of those boards ran in a set of 8 boards for one of my clients running something like Mmmost or whatever it was called, for several years and, since they had a UPS, never experienced a failure in the time I worked with them. The Systems Group stuff worked really well, and I still like 'em, though the boards are 512K boards rather than the 128K ones they were then, having been designed with the eventual emergence of 256K parts in mind. The main problem with S-100 DRAM boards was that designers seldom understood both the S-100 timing and the proper use of DRAMs. Frankly, since there wasn't a standard, it is understandable that nobody could get complete interoperability from DRAMs with reasonable timing, since the S-100 had been designed around one CPU and then the most popular CPU was promptly replaced by another one with completely different timing. > > Allison > > > From: Douglas Quebbeman > > >> Back in the early days of 64k DRAMs, the COORS ceramics were described as > >having > >> too much radioactivity for use in high-density memories. I'm not sure > that > >was, > >> in fact, the case, but somebody seems to have thought so. Do you suppose > >they > >> fixed that? Coors was a leader, in the '60's in porcelain tooling and > other > >> such oddities, not to mention having "perfected" the draw-and-iron > process > >for > >> making thin-walled aluminum beverage cans. > > > >My 8k EconoRAM IV, one of the first S-100 boards to use DRAM, used the > >very chips that supposedly had that problem. I've been told mine are > >OK, but it used to be a bit flaky; however, I always blamed that on > >the state of the early S-100 systems and my soldering work on the SOL > >to which it was attached... I solder *much* better now... -dq > > > > From foo at siconic.com Mon Nov 19 12:54:18 2001 From: foo at siconic.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:23:38 2005 Subject: Intel C8080A chip brings $565 on EBAY In-Reply-To: <002d01c170f6$92a86620$0100a8c0@sys1> Message-ID: On Mon, 19 Nov 2001, John Galt wrote: > As far as the color, chip collectors refer to that color chip as > "purple". If you look at it next to a normal "gray" CerDIP, you can > see the difference. Besides, it would not have mattered had it been > black. The fact is, it's not the white/gold color of a normal Intel > C8080A. The printing on the chip is also somewhat different. My > guess is it's a late run C8080A that was put in the same package they > used for some of the later C8085AH's. My questions is: why does this matter? Will researchers 50 years from now find the Purple one useful for any sort of study? What makes the Purple one special beyond just being a pretty if not questionable shade of purple? Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Mon Nov 19 13:30:14 2001 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (Allison) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:23:38 2005 Subject: Intel C8080A chip brings $565 on EBAY Message-ID: <000a01c17130$a2f94aa0$6b7b7b7b@ajp> It was easy to buy into but, it wasn't supported by research. I was with NEC at that time and Dram was one of the hot products and they were pretty good at it. Tyrns out the gold braze for the lid and the gold based eutectic for the die bond were the real source and it was Alpha particles (most easily stopped) as a primary source of "soft" errors. Since then tricks like memory scrubbing in ECC systems and better controls on charge refresh have burried the problem even though the features are several orders smaller. That very smaller means less charge and there for more problems but it also means a smaller target meaning a more likely miss. In 1981 it translated to you had to have a lot of chips, running for a long time to get a radiation induced soft error and even then parity or better yet ECC was the way out. In the end, not a problem for most systems. Really interesting if your into statistics and probability. Allison -----Original Message----- From: Richard Erlacher To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org Date: Monday, November 19, 2001 1:57 PM Subject: Re: Intel C8080A chip brings $565 on EBAY >I don't remember that explanation, though I guess it could be plausible. What I >remember reading was that, since western Colorado and eastern Utah, where they >were getting some of their materials was also an area of relatively high >concentration of radioactive minerals, which certainly lines up with the 1950's >activity in uranium prospecting/mining in that area. It was easy for me to buy >into during that period. The problem was found in almost all ceramic packages >made from materials acquired in that part of the country, so it seemed >reasonable enough. It doesn't matter now, of course. > >Dick >----- Original Message ----- >From: "Allison" >To: >Sent: Monday, November 19, 2001 10:24 AM >Subject: Re: Intel C8080A chip brings $565 on EBAY > > >> Not quite true. >> >> The Dram problem was one of those "we knew it was comming" due >> to shrinking geometry items. The source of the radiation was the Gold >> eutectic braze. The specific radiation was alpha particles. FYI the >> solution was organic based die overcoat. Testing for the phenomina was >> undertaken to verify and analyze the phenomina by NEC,IBM and MOTO >> (to name a few) using initally small geometry 16k single voltage (i2118 >> style) parts. >> >> FYI: the coors ceramic parts were morecostly due to the gold! They >> however were better for hermetic performance than slab with glass frit >> sealed packages. >> >> Allison >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: Richard Erlacher >> To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org >> Date: Monday, November 19, 2001 11:00 AM >> Subject: Re: Intel C8080A chip brings $565 on EBAY >> >> >> >Back in the early days of 64k DRAMs, the COORS ceramics were described as >> having >> >too much radioactivity for use in high-density memories. I'm not sure that >> was, >> >in fact, the case, but somebody seems to have thought so. Do you suppose >> they >> >fixed that? Coors was a leader, in the '60's in porcelain tooling and >> other >> >such oddities, not to mention having "perfected" the draw-and-iron process >> for >> >making thin-walled aluminum beverage cans. >> > >> >Dick >> > >> >----- Original Message ----- >> >From: "Douglas Quebbeman" >> >To: >> >Sent: Monday, November 19, 2001 7:37 AM >> >Subject: RE: Intel C8080A chip brings $565 on EBAY >> > >> > >> >> > It's very late run ceramic. Ceramic for chip substrates only comes >> from a >> >> > few vendors one being a beer maker in the rockies a few in the far east >> and >> >> > Europe. >> >> >> >> heh... actually, Adolph Coors spun-off its non-brewery assets in 1992 >> >> into ACX Technologies, and most recently, CoorsTek (formerly Coors >> >> Ceramics) was spun-off into a wholly separate company on Jan 1, 2000. >> >> >> >> -dq >> >> >> >> >> > >> > >> >> > From news at kostecke.net Mon Nov 19 08:17:18 2001 From: news at kostecke.net (news) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:23:38 2005 Subject: No subject Message-ID: Newsgroups: mailinglist.classiccmp Path: gateway From: ajp166@bellatlantic.net (Allison) Subject: Re: Intel C8080A chip brings $565 on EBAY Date: 19 Nov 01 13:38:45 GMT Sender: Steve Kostecke MIME-Version: 1.0 Message-ID: <003401c170ff$841dc740$6b7b7b7b@ajp> X-Priority: 3 Distribution: local X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3155.0 Reply-To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org X-Mailing-List: classiccmp X-Mimeole: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3155.0 X-Fetchmail-Warning: recipient address classiccmp@classiccmp.org didn't match any local name Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" X-Msmail-Priority: Normal Lines: 72 Organization: kostecke.net mail2news gateway X-Authentication-Warning: opal.tseinc.com: majordom set sender to owner-classiccmp@classiccmp.org using -f Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: John Galt >There's a rather small community of chip collectors. > >However, there are a few collectors who have been >collecting for over 10 years now who have put togather >pretty vast collections of literally thousands of chips. My only concern is they may be collecting junk, IE: chips that look good, may be rare but are DEAD/useless electronically. >It would be the same as if suddenly someone found >two Intelec bit slice 3002 computers dated 1975 in a closet or something. >Sure, there might could be more, but if they were common, you guys would >have already seen one. These were quite common and the basic chipset on an experimentors board was around $495 in 1977. Most were used then relagated to the engineering junk box. So I'd presume when you say rare, your referring to actively traded survivors as SBC colltors like me may already have one (not yet!). >As far as the color, chip collectors refer to that color >chip as "purple". If you look at it next to a normal >"gray" CerDIP, you can see the difference. Besides, >it would not have mattered had it been black. The fact >is, it's not the white/gold color of a normal Intel >C8080A. The printing on the chip is also somewhat different. My guess is >it's a late run C8080A that was It's very late run ceramic. Ceramic for chip substrates only comes from a few vendors one being a beer maker in the rockies a few in the far east and Europe. It was part of the reason why ceramic parts were more expensive and also a near must if the part was required to pass tests for hermetic sealing (military, space or other high stress apps). Ceramic aging/dating: Starting with the 1960s ceramic was white. early White examples were early military Flatpacks(RTL/DTL/TTL) 1101, 1103 ram 1702 eprom first brown parts I'd seen were 2708s brown (light) later dark brown Gray Gray with brownish cast Gray with purplish cast Those were the most common. Eproms were generaltionally in the common ceramic of the time. Allison From donm at cts.com Mon Nov 19 13:01:48 2001 From: donm at cts.com (Don Maslin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:23:38 2005 Subject: your mail In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Mon, 19 Nov 2001, news wrote: > Newsgroups: mailinglist.classiccmp > Path: gateway > From: ajp166@bellatlantic.net (Allison) > Subject: Re: Intel C8080A chip brings $565 on EBAY > Date: 19 Nov 01 13:38:45 GMT > Sender: Steve Kostecke > MIME-Version: 1.0 > Message-ID: <003401c170ff$841dc740$6b7b7b7b@ajp> > X-Priority: 3 > Distribution: local > X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3155.0 > Reply-To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org > X-Mailing-List: classiccmp > X-Mimeole: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3155.0 > X-Fetchmail-Warning: recipient address classiccmp@classiccmp.org didn't match any local name > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" > X-Msmail-Priority: Normal > Lines: 72 > Organization: kostecke.net mail2news gateway > X-Authentication-Warning: opal.tseinc.com: majordom set sender to owner-classiccmp@classiccmp.org using -f > Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Steve, why are you redundantly transmitting this stuff? We have all already seen it at least once! Please knock it off. - don From news at kostecke.net Mon Nov 19 08:32:21 2001 From: news at kostecke.net (news) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:23:38 2005 Subject: No subject Message-ID: Newsgroups: mailinglist.classiccmp Path: gateway From: allain@panix.com (John Allain) Subject: Re: Intel C8080A chip brings $565 on EBAY Date: 19 Nov 01 14:05:09 GMT Sender: Steve Kostecke MIME-Version: 1.0 Message-ID: <004801c17103$330b3e60$8a0101ac@ibm23xhr06> X-Priority: 3 Distribution: local X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2615.200 Reply-To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org X-Mailing-List: classiccmp X-Mimeole: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2615.200 X-Fetchmail-Warning: recipient address classiccmp@classiccmp.org didn't match any local name Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" X-Msmail-Priority: Normal Lines: 11 References: <1378.723T900T7564421optimus@canit.se> Organization: kostecke.net mail2news gateway X-Authentication-Warning: opal.tseinc.com: majordom set sender to owner-classiccmp@classiccmp.org using -f Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit >Why are chip collectors so frowned upon on this mailing list? One respondant doesn't represent the whole list, as you are now learning. If you are new here then welcome. John A. If you aren't, then my apologies. From celt at chisp.net Mon Nov 19 08:55:18 2001 From: celt at chisp.net (Michael Maginnis) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:23:38 2005 Subject: Mattell football 2 1978 References: <88.f75fddd.2929d167@aol.com> Message-ID: <3BF91D56.802@chisp.net> SUPRDAVE@aol.com wrote: > In a message dated 11/18/2001 9:37:31 PM Eastern Standard Time, > gehrich@tampabay.rr.com writes: > > << At 08:50 PM 11/18/01 -0500, you wrote: > >Where can I purchase Mattell football 2 1978? > > for what platform? >> > > I'm sure he's talking a handheld game. > > Didn't Mattel make a cart version of this game for their Intellivision & Intellivision2 game consoles? Mike From edick at idcomm.com Mon Nov 19 09:15:24 2001 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:23:38 2005 Subject: Auction References: <20011118232701.F20390-100000@lepton.subatomix.com> Message-ID: <003201c1710d$03537840$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> Careful how you use those terms, Bro ... BigBrother's listening/watching ... Dick ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jeffrey S. Sharp" To: Sent: Sunday, November 18, 2001 10:30 PM Subject: Re: Auction > On Mon, 19 Nov 2001, China panyu Auction LTD wrote: > > > Guangzhou Panyu Hengli Resort of Agriculture is [blah blah ...] > > Can non-subscribers post to this list? If not, it looks like the spammers > are getting smarter. Now, where did I put my thermonuclear weaponry? > > > -- > Jeffrey S. Sharp > jss@subatomix.com > > From edick at idcomm.com Mon Nov 19 09:18:38 2001 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:23:38 2005 Subject: OT: paging MAC expert(s) --- What's a Performa? References: <200111181927.TAA15747@citadel.metropolis.local> Message-ID: <003a01c1710d$76e4bc60$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> I've drawn the conclusion that the only real memory-hog is the Netscape browser. A couple of folks have advised me to install a 32MB simm for that purpose alone. It would certainly be a shame to make the system buckle when browsing just because it lacks RAM. Does anyone know otherwise? It would be a waste to invest in expanding the RAM if it's unwarranted, though I've never heard complaints about too much RAM. Dick ----- Original Message ----- From: "Stan Barr" To: Sent: Sunday, November 18, 2001 12:27 PM Subject: Re: OT: paging MAC expert(s) --- What's a Performa? > > Yes, I saw that. What's still a little murky is how best to exploit the thing > > in the context of "normal" (if there is such a thing) home computing. I > > certainly don't know what's normal. There's software installed that's > > undocumented (unsupported by registration doc's), so it will have to go, but I'm > > not interested in going out and buying software to load the thing up so that it > > can do some basic correspondence. They both have Claris Works loaded, but since > > there's no CD and no doc, I have to say it's got to be flushed. Too bad since > > that purports to have all the stuff that's needed. There's even a (single) copy > > of the manual suggesting that the software stayed wherever these boxes came > > from. (makes my skin crawl to end a sentence with a preposition, but it would > > sound too "stilted" to construct the sentence correctly ... ) > > These machines shipped with Claris Works pre-installed and on the system > CD - at least they did here in the UK. Claris Works is real easy to use > and comes with comprehensive on-line help - click on the question mark > icon, top right, when in Claris Works. I still use it for my normal word > processing, you don't need much horsepower for that! > > Video equipped models also came with Avid Videoshop. > > > -- > Cheers, > Stan Barr stanb@dial.pipex.com > > The future was never like this! > > > From allain at panix.com Mon Nov 19 10:04:47 2001 From: allain at panix.com (John Allain) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:23:38 2005 Subject: OT: paging MAC expert(s) --- What's a Performa? References: <200111181927.TAA15747@citadel.metropolis.local> <003a01c1710d$76e4bc60$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> Message-ID: <012801c17113$e9f43ea0$8a0101ac@ibm23xhr06> > I've drawn the conclusion that the only real memory-hog is the > Netscape browser. Mildly disagree. I especially like Netscape because they offered (and apparently still offer*) 4.08 Netscape which is fairly modern and works in memory as small as 8MB (with 16MB being "hog heaven"). That level of classic support has to be praised on this list. * http://home.netscape.com/download/archive.html?cp=dowarc John A. From edick at idcomm.com Mon Nov 19 10:46:21 2001 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:23:38 2005 Subject: OT: paging MAC expert(s) --- What's a Performa? References: <200111181927.TAA15747@citadel.metropolis.local> <003a01c1710d$76e4bc60$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> <012801c17113$e9f43ea0$8a0101ac@ibm23xhr06> Message-ID: <004001c17119$b83840e0$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> Have you got hands-on experience with Netscrape on the MAC with <20 MB? That makes a difference, since I can then configure both boxes the same way, having the required parts in house. It seems that of the two 32MB simms I've got left, only one is a "for-sure" functional one. The other, ... well ..., lets just say I'm not so sure. Dick ----- Original Message ----- From: "John Allain" To: Sent: Monday, November 19, 2001 9:04 AM Subject: Re: OT: paging MAC expert(s) --- What's a Performa? > > I've drawn the conclusion that the only real memory-hog is the > > Netscape browser. > > Mildly disagree. I especially like Netscape because they offered (and > apparently still offer*) 4.08 Netscape which is fairly modern and works in > memory as small as 8MB (with 16MB being "hog heaven"). That level > of classic support has to be praised on this list. > * http://home.netscape.com/download/archive.html?cp=dowarc > > John A. > > From csmith at amdocs.com Mon Nov 19 09:24:43 2001 From: csmith at amdocs.com (Christopher Smith) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:23:38 2005 Subject: OT: paging MAC expert(s) --- What's a Performa? Message-ID: <3B55D7F383B0D31197D9009027541CBF1170DE89@cmiexch1.cmi.itds.com> > -----Original Message----- > From: Richard Erlacher [mailto:edick@idcomm.com] > There's a program (somewhere) called "FINDER," though I'm not > convinced it's for > the purpose of finding something. What I need to find out is > how to find the > FINDER. Then, of course, I have to figure out how to drive > it ... will > it ever end ... Ahh yes. :) Having been employed as a Mac-only programmer for a while, let me assure you that there is a program called "Finder," which, in fact, is not for finding things at all. Finder is the Macintosh shell. Best not to confuse the users with terms like "file manager," "shell," "interface," "front-end," "button two" or the like. ;) Regards, Chris Christopher Smith, Perl Developer Amdocs - Champaign, IL /usr/bin/perl -e ' print((~"\x95\xc4\xe3"^"Just Another Perl Hacker.")."\x08!\n"); ' From csmith at amdocs.com Mon Nov 19 09:32:40 2001 From: csmith at amdocs.com (Christopher Smith) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:23:38 2005 Subject: OT: paging MAC expert(s) --- What's a Performa? Message-ID: <3B55D7F383B0D31197D9009027541CBF1170DE8B@cmiexch1.cmi.itds.com> > -----Original Message----- > From: Richard Erlacher [mailto:edick@idcomm.com] > version of the OS. surely there's some way to determine what > hardware the > machine thinks it "sees," though. No. It's one of the things that Apple decided to leave out in the name of simplicity. You'll need to find a program to do it. "Apple System Profiler" as suggested, will likely work. You may have to go find yourself a copy. Have you checked Apple's web-page? Regards, Chris Christopher Smith, Perl Developer Amdocs - Champaign, IL /usr/bin/perl -e ' print((~"\x95\xc4\xe3"^"Just Another Perl Hacker.")."\x08!\n"); ' From edick at idcomm.com Mon Nov 19 10:03:49 2001 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:23:38 2005 Subject: OT: paging MAC expert(s) --- What's a Performa? References: <3B55D7F383B0D31197D9009027541CBF1170DE8B@cmiexch1.cmi.itds.com> Message-ID: <000c01c17113$c6f13b60$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> There does appear to be a problem with transporting files/data from a computer to a MAC. Apparently, if I move things to a PC diskette, I can only read the content as data on the MAC, so there's got to be another way to get stuff from the web to these MAC's. I'm not patient enough to wait for a transfer at 2400 baud on those GV Teleport Bronze modems. Dick ----- Original Message ----- From: "Christopher Smith" To: Sent: Monday, November 19, 2001 8:32 AM Subject: RE: OT: paging MAC expert(s) --- What's a Performa? > > -----Original Message----- > > From: Richard Erlacher [mailto:edick@idcomm.com] > > > version of the OS. surely there's some way to determine what > > hardware the > > machine thinks it "sees," though. > > No. It's one of the things that Apple decided to leave out in the name of > simplicity. You'll need to find a program to do it. "Apple System > Profiler" as suggested, will likely work. You may have to go find yourself > a copy. Have you checked Apple's web-page? > > Regards, > > Chris > > > Christopher Smith, Perl Developer > Amdocs - Champaign, IL > > /usr/bin/perl -e ' > print((~"\x95\xc4\xe3"^"Just Another Perl Hacker.")."\x08!\n"); > ' > > > From csmith at amdocs.com Mon Nov 19 09:42:36 2001 From: csmith at amdocs.com (Christopher Smith) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:23:38 2005 Subject: OT: paging MAC expert(s) --- What's a Performa? Message-ID: <3B55D7F383B0D31197D9009027541CBF1170DE8C@cmiexch1.cmi.itds.com> > -----Original Message----- > From: Richard Erlacher [mailto:edick@idcomm.com] > however. I tried to > initialize a diskette, and had to wait about 5 minutes after > the process ended > before it would let me do anything else, though it did > eventually let me back at > it. That's pretty normal. It will take it a while to flush buffers and wake back up -- rather, that's what I assume it's doing... :) > Funny thing, though, is that I remember people claiming that > MAC OS was > multitasking. Windows allows me to play a game or whatever > when I start off on > a time-consuming task. This guy doesn't seem to want to do > that. I had to try > it on the second machine just to verify that the thing was > not just bum > hardware. It worked the same on the second box as well. This gets really tangled right about now. What's your deffinition of multitasking? Is the hardware capable of it? Yes. The software? Well, It's co-operative. If you'd asked microsoft about their definition before Abomination '95, they'd have told you that co-operative multitasking is still multitasking too... I have yet to figure out why they couldn't have done the disk reads/writes in the background while you do some other things. I believe it's likely to be a "left-over" from early days. Funny thing is that if you can find a file-manager or the like that will format disks/copy files, it's pretty likely that you can work around this particular problem. Regards, Chris Christopher Smith, Perl Developer Amdocs - Champaign, IL /usr/bin/perl -e ' print((~"\x95\xc4\xe3"^"Just Another Perl Hacker.")."\x08!\n"); ' From edick at idcomm.com Mon Nov 19 10:08:00 2001 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:23:38 2005 Subject: OT: paging MAC expert(s) --- What's a Performa? References: <3B55D7F383B0D31197D9009027541CBF1170DE8C@cmiexch1.cmi.itds.com> Message-ID: <001401c17114$5c75e780$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> So far it's not a problem, as the system has degenerated somewhat more, and I'm probably going to hose off the hard disk and start over, if that's possible. That way I'll know what's there, as well as knowing that what's there is supposed to be there. I'm quite sure I'll be unable to do much more with these until after the upcoming holiday. However, I appreciate the continued advice, as I have to digest it and figure out exactly what it means in terms of what I have to do in order to make these boxes known and stabile. Dick ----- Original Message ----- From: "Christopher Smith" To: Sent: Monday, November 19, 2001 8:42 AM Subject: RE: OT: paging MAC expert(s) --- What's a Performa? > > -----Original Message----- > > From: Richard Erlacher [mailto:edick@idcomm.com] > > > however. I tried to > > initialize a diskette, and had to wait about 5 minutes after > > the process ended > > before it would let me do anything else, though it did > > eventually let me back at > > it. > > That's pretty normal. It will take it a while to flush buffers and wake > back up -- rather, that's what I assume it's doing... :) > > > Funny thing, though, is that I remember people claiming that > > MAC OS was > > multitasking. Windows allows me to play a game or whatever > > when I start off on > > a time-consuming task. This guy doesn't seem to want to do > > that. I had to try > > it on the second machine just to verify that the thing was > > not just bum > > hardware. It worked the same on the second box as well. > > This gets really tangled right about now. What's your deffinition of > multitasking? Is the hardware capable of it? Yes. The software? Well, > It's co-operative. If you'd asked microsoft about their definition before > Abomination '95, they'd have told you that co-operative multitasking is > still multitasking too... > > I have yet to figure out why they couldn't have done the disk reads/writes > in the background while you do some other things. I believe it's likely to > be a "left-over" from early days. > > Funny thing is that if you can find a file-manager or the like that will > format disks/copy files, it's pretty likely that you can work around this > particular problem. > > Regards, > > Chris > > > Christopher Smith, Perl Developer > Amdocs - Champaign, IL > > /usr/bin/perl -e ' > print((~"\x95\xc4\xe3"^"Just Another Perl Hacker.")."\x08!\n"); > ' > > > From csmith at amdocs.com Mon Nov 19 09:50:38 2001 From: csmith at amdocs.com (Christopher Smith) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:23:38 2005 Subject: OT: paging MAC expert(s) --- What's a Performa? Message-ID: <3B55D7F383B0D31197D9009027541CBF1170DE8D@cmiexch1.cmi.itds.com> > -----Original Message----- > From: Richard Erlacher [mailto:edick@idcomm.com] > Not to create an issue, but under Windows, that doesn't often > happen, though > it's possible, I guess. What could > be going on? You do realize that you ought to be comparing Mac system 7.x with Windows 3.1? Granted, the OS was frozen in that state for a very long time, but originally, that was its primary alternative. Windows 3.1 is not famous for being a real-time system, either ;) Regards, Chris Christopher Smith, Perl Developer Amdocs - Champaign, IL /usr/bin/perl -e ' print((~"\x95\xc4\xe3"^"Just Another Perl Hacker.")."\x08!\n"); ' From edick at idcomm.com Mon Nov 19 10:19:38 2001 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:23:38 2005 Subject: OT: paging MAC expert(s) --- What's a Performa? References: <3B55D7F383B0D31197D9009027541CBF1170DE8D@cmiexch1.cmi.itds.com> Message-ID: <001a01c17115$fcd2a640$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> That is true, isn't it? The WIN/DOS that went with the Performa 640, which had the Intel CPU as well as the 'LC040, was 3.11/6.22. I was working more from the experience with Windows that I'd had more recently. My latest Windows, BTW, is '98SE, and, until they fix some of the very fundamental problems, like non-working OS utilities, e.g. Backup, I'm not getting any more M$ OS products. I'm told it may be a long wait, BTW. This practice of theirs, of buying a non-functional cast-off from some financially-troubled software company and then integrating it into their OS is, in fact, an example of their "monopolistic practices" since they've no intention of supporting the product as an intrinsic function of their OS, though that's what they claim, as in the case of Internet Explorer, it is. Since you can't go to anyone else for a competing OS product, I guess they figure you're screwed, which is how I see it. Dick ----- Original Message ----- From: "Christopher Smith" To: Sent: Monday, November 19, 2001 8:50 AM Subject: RE: OT: paging MAC expert(s) --- What's a Performa? > > -----Original Message----- > > From: Richard Erlacher [mailto:edick@idcomm.com] > > > Not to create an issue, but under Windows, that doesn't often > > happen, though > > it's possible, I guess. What could > > be going on? > > You do realize that you ought to be comparing Mac system 7.x with Windows > 3.1? Granted, the OS was frozen in that state for a very long time, but > originally, that was its primary alternative. > > Windows 3.1 is not famous for being a real-time system, either ;) > > Regards, > > Chris > > > Christopher Smith, Perl Developer > Amdocs - Champaign, IL > > /usr/bin/perl -e ' > print((~"\x95\xc4\xe3"^"Just Another Perl Hacker.")."\x08!\n"); > ' > > > From csmith at amdocs.com Mon Nov 19 10:03:27 2001 From: csmith at amdocs.com (Christopher Smith) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:23:38 2005 Subject: OT: paging MAC expert(s) --- What's a Performa? Message-ID: <3B55D7F383B0D31197D9009027541CBF1170DE8E@cmiexch1.cmi.itds.com> > -----Original Message----- > From: gwynp@artware.qc.ca [mailto:gwynp@artware.qc.ca] > You're best bet is to buy a Mac Addict or other magazine that > has a CD-ROM > (you do have a CD drive?). Older Macs don't "boot-strap" > very well. Yes, > you can get a SEA (self-extracting archive) of Stuffit, but > it won't do > you much good. Mac OS has 2 forks per file. One for data, the other > for code. When you download a file or when you copy a file from a PC > formated disk everything goes into the data fork. Doing something > equivalent to "chmod +x file.sea" is impossible on Mac OS without an > external program, like say Stuffit. *sigh* If you are > lucky, you'll have > a recent version of Mac OS which includes Stuffit. Well, if you'd like a home-baked solution (possibly home half-baked. :), you can write Macintosh 1.4 meg disks on a peesee type machine (or unix box). I can possibly provide code for an hfs loadable module for linux, and a rather generic set of c programs that will read/write mac filesystems. With that software, and an archive that you can extract the stuffit binary from, you'd be able to write the proper resource fork to the disk as well, and have the macintosh know what to do with your program. > I find this to be one of the most incredible "features" of > Mac OS. Apart > from that, as long as you have a real computer nearby, using > a Mac isn't > that bad. I feel the need to defend this "feature." In so much as this allows you to separate data from code, this is a wonderful idea. The problem, really, is that apple left their o/s unfinished, and didn't include the proper utilities to manipulate these things that the system depends so heavily upon. Regards, Chris Christopher Smith, Perl Developer Amdocs - Champaign, IL /usr/bin/perl -e ' print((~"\x95\xc4\xe3"^"Just Another Perl Hacker.")."\x08!\n"); ' From csmith at amdocs.com Mon Nov 19 11:22:03 2001 From: csmith at amdocs.com (Christopher Smith) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:23:38 2005 Subject: OT: paging MAC expert(s) --- What's a Performa? Message-ID: <3B55D7F383B0D31197D9009027541CBF1170DE98@cmiexch1.cmi.itds.com> > -----Original Message----- > From: Richard Erlacher [mailto:edick@idcomm.com] > the Intel CPU as well as the 'LC040, was 3.11/6.22. I was > working more from the > experience with Windows that I'd had more recently. My > latest Windows, BTW, is > '98SE, and, until they fix some of the very fundamental problems, like > non-working OS utilities, e.g. Backup, I'm not getting any > more M$ OS products. > I'm told it may be a long wait, BTW. Has microsoft _ever_ had a working backup utility? OK, maybe xenix had a working version of tar or cpio (I doubt it had both), but that's it. However, since I'm supposed to "leave my anti-ms baggage at the door," according to the faq, don't get me started ;) > This practice of theirs, of buying a non-functional cast-off from some > financially-troubled software company and then integrating it > into their OS is, > in fact, an example of their "monopolistic practices" since Just ask yourself why most of these companies are troubled in the first place... > they've no intention > of supporting the product as an intrinsic function of their > OS, though that's > what they claim, as in the case of Internet Explorer, it is. > Since you can't go > to anyone else for a competing OS product, I guess they > figure you're screwed, > which is how I see it. Well, my most recent exposure is to windows 2000, which, admittedly, is nearly as stable as NT 3.x was (4 was a joke). I only use it at work, and only because they give me no choice. At home, I have plenty of other options that do whatever I tell them to... ;) Regards, Chris Christopher Smith, Perl Developer Amdocs - Champaign, IL /usr/bin/perl -e ' print((~"\x95\xc4\xe3"^"Just Another Perl Hacker.")."\x08!\n"); ' From edick at idcomm.com Mon Nov 19 12:19:36 2001 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:23:38 2005 Subject: OT: paging MAC expert(s) --- What's a Performa? References: <3B55D7F383B0D31197D9009027541CBF1170DE98@cmiexch1.cmi.itds.com> Message-ID: <000f01c17126$bed4d640$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> I'm concerned mainly about Win9x. There were numerous backup packages that worked VERY well under [DOS6.22/Win3.11]. Since the release of Win9x, I've bought several backup packages, and a couple of releases of each, yet not seen one that even barely worked on any sort of consistent basis. The early backup program from ADAPTEC, part of their EasySCSI 4.xx package, didn't even support SCSI devices, and freely admitted it. Microsoft's backup utility for Windows95 didn't support SCSI devices either. Seagate Backup Exec supported SCSI-1 and SCSI-2 devices, though it didn't work terribly well because it opened files that subsequently required human intervention in order to complete the backup. Moreover, if permission was given to back up those files, it would fall down during verify, since it, itself, had modified those files. Novaback for Windows95 failed on 148 of the 151 units one of my clients has, failing in all those cases, to complete the backup. I've never managed to get Novaback to finish a restore either. Cheyenne backup was a miserable flop, failing to read its own writing from time to time. I could go on ... There's something about the OS that interferes with a backup. The Microsoft Backup for Win98 seems to work ...sorta... but it only works ...sorta... and falls down many times, misinterpreting a drive that the OS recognizes correctly to be a 2GB partition to be 300+ Terabytes. Naturally it falls down later because of that problem. An OS without a real backup utility is of little use because you have to have backup ... not just copies of things, but a real backup, context and all, that enables you to get back to where you were. DOS didn't have that, UNIX doesn't have it (though it does have TAR, which makes copies to tape), OS/2 doesn't have it, LINUX doesn't have it ... I don't know what a guy's to do. I guess image-copying the disk to tape, empty space and all, is the only solution. Of course that means the files are replaceable only on an all or nothing basis. ^%$#@! ... what a bunch of crap! Dick ----- Original Message ----- From: "Christopher Smith" To: Sent: Monday, November 19, 2001 10:22 AM Subject: RE: OT: paging MAC expert(s) --- What's a Performa? > > -----Original Message----- > > From: Richard Erlacher [mailto:edick@idcomm.com] > > > the Intel CPU as well as the 'LC040, was 3.11/6.22. I was > > working more from the > > experience with Windows that I'd had more recently. My > > latest Windows, BTW, is > > '98SE, and, until they fix some of the very fundamental problems, like > > non-working OS utilities, e.g. Backup, I'm not getting any > > more M$ OS products. > > I'm told it may be a long wait, BTW. > > Has microsoft _ever_ had a working backup utility? OK, maybe xenix had a > working version of tar or cpio (I doubt it had both), but that's it. > However, since I'm supposed to "leave my anti-ms baggage at the door," > according to the faq, don't get me started ;) > > > This practice of theirs, of buying a non-functional cast-off from some > > financially-troubled software company and then integrating it > > into their OS is, > > in fact, an example of their "monopolistic practices" since > > Just ask yourself why most of these companies are troubled in the first > place... > > > they've no intention > > of supporting the product as an intrinsic function of their > > OS, though that's > > what they claim, as in the case of Internet Explorer, it is. > > Since you can't go > > to anyone else for a competing OS product, I guess they > > figure you're screwed, > > which is how I see it. > > Well, my most recent exposure is to windows 2000, which, admittedly, is > nearly as stable as NT 3.x was (4 was a joke). I only use it at work, and > only because they give me no choice. At home, I have plenty of other > options that do whatever I tell them to... ;) > > Regards, > > Chris > > Christopher Smith, Perl Developer > Amdocs - Champaign, IL > > /usr/bin/perl -e ' > print((~"\x95\xc4\xe3"^"Just Another Perl Hacker.")."\x08!\n"); > ' > > From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Mon Nov 19 11:45:24 2001 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (Ben Franchuk) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:23:38 2005 Subject: OT: paging MAC expert(s) --- What's a Performa? References: <3B55D7F383B0D31197D9009027541CBF1170DE98@cmiexch1.cmi.itds.com> <000f01c17126$bed4d640$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> Message-ID: <3BF94534.64957004@jetnet.ab.ca> Richard Erlacher wrote: > There's something about the OS that interferes with a backup. The Microsoft > Backup for Win98 seems to work ...sorta... but it only works ...sorta... and > falls down many times, misinterpreting a drive that the OS recognizes correctly > to be a 2GB partition to be 300+ Terabytes. Naturally it falls down later > because of that problem. I suspect this was you were never meant to backup the complete system. Why that might mean somebody could make a illegal copy of windows. The few backup programs I have looked at but never could afford still run under DOS and will back up your windows system with out the OS. There is just too much crap in windows that makes it nearly impossible to backup. And of course you have to load windows to run a windows backup. (Stupid)! > An OS without a real backup utility is of little use because you have to have > backup ... not just copies of things, but a real backup, context and all, that > enables you to get back to where you were. DOS didn't have that, UNIX doesn't > have it (though it does have TAR, which makes copies to tape), OS/2 doesn't have > it, LINUX doesn't have it ... I don't know what a guy's to do. I guess > image-copying the disk to tape, empty space and all, is the only solution. Of > course that means the files are replaceable only on an all or nothing basis. > ^%$#@! ... what a bunch of crap! Since I have a small HD I do a tar from my boot disk for linux, for the entire HD to a bunch of Zip disks. A bit messy but I know I recover the entire OS should my HD fail with tar. Ben Franchuk. From cmurillo at emtelsa.multi.net.co Mon Nov 19 13:12:06 2001 From: cmurillo at emtelsa.multi.net.co (Carlos Murillo) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:23:38 2005 Subject: OT: paging MAC expert(s) --- What's a Performa? In-Reply-To: <000f01c17126$bed4d640$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> References: <3B55D7F383B0D31197D9009027541CBF1170DE98@cmiexch1.cmi.itds.com> Message-ID: <3.0.2.32.20011119141206.00fdfa2c@obregon.multi.net.co> At 11:19 AM 11/19/01 -0700, Dick wrote: >I'm concerned mainly about Win9x. There were numerous backup packages that >worked VERY well under [DOS6.22/Win3.11]. Since the release of Win9x, I've >bought several backup packages, and a couple of releases of each, yet not seen >one that even barely worked on any sort of consistent basis. Retrospect works nicely. And, it is very easy to set remote backups in a mixed wintel/mac installation, as long as each machine has its own static IP. It doesn't work as well using Winblows sharing. Even transitorially connected devices such as laptops can be remote backed-up using Retrospect. >An OS without a real backup utility is of little use because you have to have >backup ... not just copies of things, but a real backup, context and all, that >enables you to get back to where you were. DOS didn't have that, UNIX doesn't >have it (though it does have TAR, which makes copies to tape), OS/2 doesn't have >it, LINUX doesn't have it ... I don't know what a guy's to do. I guess >image-copying the disk to tape, empty space and all, is the only solution. Of >course that means the files are replaceable only on an all or nothing basis. >^%$#@! ... what a bunch of crap! Well, HPUX has Ignite-UX, which has lots of possibilities. It is free. But I doubt most people need such heavy artillery. carlos. -------------------------------------------------------------- Carlos E. Murillo-Sanchez carlos_murillo@nospammers.ieee.org From mythtech at Mac.com Mon Nov 19 13:06:21 2001 From: mythtech at Mac.com (Chris) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:23:39 2005 Subject: OT: paging MAC expert(s) --- What's a Performa? Message-ID: >I've drawn the conclusion that the only real memory-hog is the Netscape >browser. >A couple of folks have advised me to install a 32MB simm for that purpose >alone. >It would certainly be a shame to make the system buckle when browsing just >because it lacks RAM. I would give iCab a try (www.icab.de), it is free, and works extremely well. It uses way less RAM than Netscape, so it should work with just 8mb installed (4mb might be tight). I am running the latest version right now and it is taking up just 2.9mb of RAM. It is also faster and more stable than Netscape in my experience... and it is actively under development even for the 68k version, something you won't get with Netscape (the 68k version is dead in the water for Netscape). -chris From mythtech at Mac.com Mon Nov 19 13:10:59 2001 From: mythtech at Mac.com (Chris) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:23:39 2005 Subject: OT: paging MAC expert(s) --- What's a Performa? Message-ID: >I have yet to figure out why they couldn't have done the disk reads/writes >in the background while you do some other things. I believe it's likely to >be a "left-over" from early days. Certain hardware could do background read/write starting with 7.5.3 (? maybe .5). I used to do it with my Quarda 610. Also, as of OS 8.0, read/write can be done in the background on all hardware that supports OS 8.0 (32 bit clean, 040's or better). I regularly put long file copies in the background and continue doing other things. -chris From csmith at amdocs.com Mon Nov 19 13:24:29 2001 From: csmith at amdocs.com (Christopher Smith) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:23:39 2005 Subject: OT: paging MAC expert(s) --- What's a Performa? Message-ID: <3B55D7F383B0D31197D9009027541CBF1170DE9F@cmiexch1.cmi.itds.com> > -----Original Message----- > From: Richard Erlacher [mailto:edick@idcomm.com] > I'm concerned mainly about Win9x. There were numerous backup > packages that > worked VERY well under [DOS6.22/Win3.11]. Since the release > of Win9x, I've > bought several backup packages, and a couple of releases of > each, yet not seen > one that even barely worked on any sort of consistent basis. Ahh, well if you allow third-parties into the picture, it changes somewhat. [Backup utility problems snipped] > There's something about the OS that interferes with a backup. > The Microsoft > Backup for Win98 seems to work ...sorta... but it only works > ...sorta... and > falls down many times, misinterpreting a drive that the OS > recognizes correctly > to be a 2GB partition to be 300+ Terabytes. Naturally it > falls down later > because of that problem. Since it's a microsoft utility, you can bet that the moment you upgrade windows, the backups will be unusable, since the new, improved version will be completely incompatible. > An OS without a real backup utility is of little use because > you have to have > backup ... not just copies of things, but a real backup, > context and all, that Bingo. Windows is not an enterprise class system, nor, IMNSHO, is it even worthy of being used in a production context. ... but back to the topic at hand. :) > enables you to get back to where you were. DOS didn't have In a single utility? Perhaps not, but how much "context" do you expect from DOS? :) The built-in backup program would copy files onto some other medium, and a recovery disk could at least be made relatively simply. Maybe I'm misunderstanding your complaint, though. My problem with the DOS backup utility was that every time somebody at m$ re-compiled something, your old backups were useless. I assume a third-party add-on would fix that. > that, UNIX doesn't > have it (though it does have TAR, which makes copies to I find that TAR gives me useable backups in general. Again, there's no such thing as a "standalone tar," so you'll need a recovery disk/tape/something. It also has CPIO if you're into that sort of thing, and several third-party things. > tape), OS/2 doesn't have > it, LINUX doesn't have it ... I don't know what a guy's to See unix above... also note that TAR may be available for OS/2. It is slightly harder to build an OS/2 recovery disk. > do. I guess > image-copying the disk to tape, empty space and all, is the > only solution. Of > course that means the files are replaceable only on an all or > nothing basis. Well, do you consider that space part of your "context?" Where is the line drawn? Also note that the empty space isn't exactly empty in most cases. As for "all-or-nothing" replacement, that's not exactly the case. You certainly could mount an image right from the backup device (very slowly for tape ;) and read files out. It would be a larger problem if your backups don't fit filesystem-for-cartrige. I'm relatively convinced that as long as you can backup files and attributes (including ACL, etc), treating special files as if they were (special, that is...), you ought to be ok. The only place you'd get bitten is in systems that need to know an exact location of a bootable image, or other such special file. That can probably be handled in the restore procedure, though. So I think DOS and Unix can be backed up pretty well. Windows is a different story, I guess. It would help, for windows, of course, if they'd provide a decent, uniform, block-device access method. Don't hold your breath, though. > ^%$#@! ... what a bunch of crap! What really makes it inexcusable is the fact that a backup utility shouldn't be too difficult to cook up. Regards, Chris Christopher Smith, Perl Developer Amdocs - Champaign, IL /usr/bin/perl -e ' print((~"\x95\xc4\xe3"^"Just Another Perl Hacker.")."\x08!\n"); ' From curt at atari-history.com Mon Nov 19 10:44:42 2001 From: curt at atari-history.com (Curt Vendel) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:23:39 2005 Subject: Corvus Floppy Drive? References: <001f01c16ca0$2af63430$0a00a8c0@cvendel> <200111140047.fAE0l1O57491@daemonweed.reanimators.org> <000d01c16cb6$24381f30$0a00a8c0@cvendel> <200111140358.fAE3wSv62823@daemonweed.reanimators.org> <001801c16d24$31e954f0$3135ff0a@cvendel> <200111190355.fAJ3tXE34985@daemonweed.reanimators.org> Message-ID: <004d01c17119$7eaf8e00$0a00a8c0@cvendel> Frank, Great info, I'll work with the TIFF's and see if I can clean them up a little and mess around with making one and try it out. Curt ----- Original Message ----- From: "Frank McConnell" To: Sent: Sunday, November 18, 2001 10:55 PM Subject: Re: Corvus Floppy Drive? > "Curt Vendel" wrote: > (Re: Corvus floppy disk controllers) > > If you run across the schematic I would be willing to pay for any copying > > and postage, thanks again Frank. > > Take a look at: > > http://www.reanimators.org/tmp/corvus-fdc.d300.tiff > http://www.reanimators.org/tmp/corvus-fdc.d600.tiff > > Both are TIFF class F group 4 scans, one is at 300 DPI, one is at 600 > DPI. The "original" that I have is a crappy photocopy so, well, good > luck reading them. I'll talk to Al and see if he wants to adopt these > or point me to a better scan. > > The 8" floppy controller also has a space on the board for a > 34-pin connector, but it's not stuffed. > > I got this controller and schematic from an advertisement in Computer > Shopper in the mid-to-late 1980s, offering an 8" floppy controller for > the Apple ][. Sadly, at the time I didn't have a WDC 1793 data sheet > so my efforts at programming the thing were frustrated and I got > distracted by other things. > > Then there's the 5.25" floppy drive. I got that out too and had > a look at it. > > The drive is a Corvus model FLP-5, Rev C, s/n 404-G1018-. It's a > metal upright case screwed together and to a half-height 5.25" floppy > drive, in this case a TEC FB504 (which is a double-sided "quad > density" 720KB drive, so I'm guessing 96 tracks per inch) strapped for > DS0 and with terminating resistor pack installed. > > The 5.25" drive is connected to a different controller. The > silkscreen on the board calls it a "BUFFERED FLOPPY CONTROLLER", and > there's a handwritten part number, "8010-10149 REV A". It's laid out > differently and is clearly a different design: it's got a NEC D765AC > FDC, and also has a power connector through which the controller card > supplies power to the drive; the power cable and a 34-pin flat cable are > bundled together in a sort of plastic zip-lock wrapper. > > I've no idea what this 5.25" drive was used with. Along about 1996 > there were some cleanouts of cupboards and storage rooms at The > Wollongong Group (where I worked at the time), and there was this > drive and controller (which I got) and a Corvus hard disk (which I > didn't get). I didn't see a Concept there. I do know that several > folks came from Corvus to Wollongong in the mid-1980s (before I got > there) and guess that they brought this stuff with them. > > -Frank McConnell > From mtapley at swri.edu Mon Nov 19 10:57:40 2001 From: mtapley at swri.edu (Mark Tapley) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:23:39 2005 Subject: Analog recorder rack to give away quickly In-Reply-To: <200111170339.VAA60577@opal.tseinc.com> Message-ID: All, SwRI is scrapping a big analog recorder rack. Top end contains a reel-to-reel recorder with big (ie around 24" diameter) tape reels. Model number looks like EB-3030 or EP-3030. Bottom end of the rack contains a row of Ampex "Monitor Oscilloscope" devices, what looks like an amplifier/signal conditioning box, labelled "Datum tape search and control unit", and a "Datum Time code Generator" with day/hour/min/sec readout. To go with this is a big *heavy* stack of the tapes it uses. Yours for shipping or pickup from San Antonio, Texas. I have digital pictures, 4 jpegs at about 500k each, if you want to see better or want to web-host, and I can go check specifics if you have specific questions. I need a commitment this week if you want it, though, as we need the space, else we have to trash/recycle. Please contact me off-list, I'm way behind on reading my digests. I'm at mtapley@swri.edu, or phone (210)-522-6025. - Mark From kurok002 at tc.umn.edu Mon Nov 19 11:08:19 2001 From: kurok002 at tc.umn.edu (David Kuroki) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:23:39 2005 Subject: What is a RL02K-DC? Message-ID: <3BF93C81.546C8923@tc.umn.edu> I recently found a RL02K-DC cartridge in storage here at work. I was just curious to know if they are worth anything today? Are they still being used?? -- University of Minnesota Cancer Center 590 CCRB MMC 494 420 Delaware Street S.E. Minneapolis,MN 55455 E-mail:kurok002@tc.umn.edu Phone: (612)626-4323 Fax:(612)624-3913 From mtapley at swri.edu Mon Nov 19 11:22:19 2001 From: mtapley at swri.edu (Mark Tapley) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:23:39 2005 Subject: Convex 9-track tapes, incl. very early perl. Message-ID: All, I have a stack of Convex 9-track tapes for somebody to make disappear by paying for boxing/shipping or by picking up, from San Antonio, Texas. Included in the stack are: 7 inch diameter reels: Convex Veclib USA V4.0 Dec 13 1988 Convex Veclib V5.0 Jan 31 1990 Convex COVUEdt V1.2 Aug 7 1990 Convex COVUEdt V1.1 Aug 22 1989 Convex CXbatch V1.1 Jun 12 1990 Convex C Compiler V4.0 Jul 19 1990 Convex C Compiler V3.0 Dec 28 1989 Convex OS PatchV8.0.1 Mar 6 1990 Convex OS V8.1 (C1) Jul 19 1990 Convex OS V8.0 (C1) Jan 31 1990 Convex CXBatch V2.0 Dec 22 1990 Convex Fortran V6.0 Jun 12 1990 Convex Fortran V5.1.1.0 Aug 22 1989 Convex 1990 User Group May 10 1990 Utilities v1.0 Jul 19 1990 user grp 1991 Jul 10 1991 tape hand-labelled "bind stuff" tape hand-labelled "SNMP source" tape hand-labelled "8.0 patches 3-15-90" ****** tape hand-labelled "Convex user group tape mh (v6.4) perl v1.29 from lwall@devvax:jpl.nasa.gov." ****** 11 inch diameter reel: ConvexOS V8.0 Jan 31, 1990 Tapes are generally Memorex, all have the gold Convex label on them. None have been tested probably for decades, and I'm pretty sure they were stored in warehouses in San Antonio. They look to be in good physical shape. ATTENTION Convex computer representatives! If there is any reason I should not make these tapes available, please notify me at the below addres and I will comply with your wishes. Any interested parties should contact me at mtapley@swri.edu, or by phone at (210)-522-6025. Questions welcome, offers to ship more welcome. I can't keep them for very long. - Mark From mtapley at swri.edu Mon Nov 19 11:26:09 2001 From: mtapley at swri.edu (Mark Tapley) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:23:39 2005 Subject: 4 Dec RA-60P Disk packs to get rid of. Message-ID: All, More interesting media to get rid of from San Antonio, Texas. This is a stack of 4 DEC RA-60P disk packs, in their carrying cases, and one extra carrying case (that pack is probably still in the drive, wherever it is). Media look to be in OK shape physically, but may be dirty inside. Contact me at mtapley@swri.edu or phone (210)-522-6025 to arrange pack/ship. - Mark From mtapley at swri.edu Mon Nov 19 12:00:01 2001 From: mtapley at swri.edu (Mark Tapley) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:23:39 2005 Subject: 9-track tape to dispose of Message-ID: All, ....and then there's the rest of the tape. Miles and miles of 9-track tapes are stacked in my office and I want my office back. I rescued about 1/3 of the to-dispose pile, the rest went to the dumpster. If I'm industrious, I may try ebaying this if you guys don't want it, but I'd rather it go to a classic-comp-er. If I'm not industrious, I'll dumpster it when I need my office bad enough. Mostly Scotch Black Watch 700 or 777 tape, mostly 12-inch reels, but lots of Memorex and smaller reels available too. Practically all is 6250 or 1600 cpi certified. A variety of closures, mostly the plastic rings and hangers. Write-enable rings mostly in place. The first 2 orders will get a bonus black 3-tape carrying case with nice webbing straps to hold it closed and serve as a handle. I have around 400 of these tapes, so please do not be shy about how many you request, at least within the constraints of your shipping budget. - Mark From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Mon Nov 19 13:43:19 2001 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (Allison) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:23:39 2005 Subject: Intel C8080A chip brings $565 on EBAY Message-ID: <000d01c17132$71c194e0$6b7b7b7b@ajp> It was nowhere near that frequent. We used number like 1/10^6 device hours for occurance rates. Often they found minor burps in the system were at fault. As to the ceramic VS plastic you have to looks carefully at the system as the two have different leadframes, operating temps, likely timing and bus capacitance. All of those things for a given system interact. The worst example was early intel ceramic parts (8755, 8748, 8749 and 8751) where the lid was floating (not attached to any pin), they were quite sensitive to small static charges accumulating on the lid! People thought it was radiation doing it! Simple ESD problem. The reason it's less a problem is ECC is common as is error scrubbing and fewer interconnects, packages and die. Then again do we know that the last Blue Screen Of Death (BSOD) was really a MS OS burp or some system data error? :-) Try and buy memories larger than say 1Mbit in ceramic now. In all the systems I've encountered denser memories went hand in hand with better reliablity of that part of the system. Allison -----Original Message----- From: Richard Erlacher To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org Date: Monday, November 19, 2001 2:13 PM Subject: Re: Intel C8080A chip brings $565 on EBAY >Gee, Allison, that's not how I remember that stuff at all. We had a dozen or >more machines running a really thorough memory tests in the early '80's and the >purpose was to quantify the difference in error rates between ceramic and >plastic parts. In order to do that, all you needed was a big enough DRAM array, >and you'd see them at a rate of about one or two per minute from among those >machines. Of course we'd be using about 8 boards measuring about 16" x 22" with >288 devices per board, then tracking the locations of the corrected errors. If >you used plastic parts, the error rate dropped, comparatively, by about 90%. >That's the reason the problem was so widely discussed. It's odd that it doesn't >exist anymore, with the typcial home computer having about as much RAM nowadays >as all the computers in the world had when I was in college. BTW, that entire >problem went almost completely away once the DRAMs were redesigned with that >checkerboarding mod I mentioned. > >Dick > >----- Original Message ----- >From: "Allison" >To: >Sent: Monday, November 19, 2001 10:31 AM >Subject: Re: Intel C8080A chip brings $565 on EBAY > > >> back then I was involved in that stuff and 99% of the Dram problems were >> design >> related and not alpha particle. To see the alpha particle in real apps >> you'd need >> a box that had thouands of them running 7x24 for weeks! S100 systems that >> ran >> that well were prone to the power company failing to deliver before ram >> failure was >> a problem! >> >> Back in that time frame I used static ram due to the general flakyness I >> preceived >> of most S100 cards. The best S100 ram I'd used for that time frame (1980) >> had an 8202( Netronics DRAM using 16Ks). >> >That board (I've still got a couple, 1 still unbuilt) was very, Very, VERY slow, >and used somebody's rather lame DRAM controller IC. The boards from CCS had >timing adquate for use with 64K parts if you didn't mind making the mod's, AND >they worked. The stock and unmodified version of those boards ran in a set of 8 >boards for one of my clients running something like Mmmost or whatever it was >called, for several years and, since they had a UPS, never experienced a failure >in the time I worked with them. The Systems Group stuff worked really well, and >I still like 'em, though the boards are 512K boards rather than the 128K ones >they were then, having been designed with the eventual emergence of 256K parts >in mind. > >The main problem with S-100 DRAM boards was that designers seldom understood >both the S-100 timing and the proper use of DRAMs. Frankly, since there wasn't >a standard, it is understandable that nobody could get complete interoperability >from DRAMs with reasonable timing, since the S-100 had been designed around one >CPU and then the most popular CPU was promptly replaced by another one with >completely different timing. >> >> Allison >> >> >> From: Douglas Quebbeman >> >> >> Back in the early days of 64k DRAMs, the COORS ceramics were described as >> >having >> >> too much radioactivity for use in high-density memories. I'm not sure >> that >> >was, >> >> in fact, the case, but somebody seems to have thought so. Do you suppose >> >they >> >> fixed that? Coors was a leader, in the '60's in porcelain tooling and >> other >> >> such oddities, not to mention having "perfected" the draw-and-iron >> process >> >for >> >> making thin-walled aluminum beverage cans. >> > >> >My 8k EconoRAM IV, one of the first S-100 boards to use DRAM, used the >> >very chips that supposedly had that problem. I've been told mine are >> >OK, but it used to be a bit flaky; however, I always blamed that on >> >the state of the early S-100 systems and my soldering work on the SOL >> >to which it was attached... I solder *much* better now... -dq >> > >> >> > From Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de Mon Nov 19 14:02:34 2001 From: Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de (Hans Franke) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:23:39 2005 Subject: Chip Collectors (was: Intel C8080A chip brings $565 on EBAY) In-Reply-To: <001501c170ac$5276fca0$0100a8c0@sys1> Message-ID: <3BF9736A.21391.F7FB1714@localhost> Nice new topic ... > If you do > not need some old chips you have laying around, then > here's a chance for you to get rid of them and make a few > bucks in the process. Valid to some degree, > My intent was to demonstrate that you guys should come off that stash of old > chips you have squireled away. > They are not doing you any good and there is a community of chip collectors > who would love to get > their hands on them. Now exactly here comes a dramatic missunderstanding (please excuse if Tony already answered hereon :)): At least for my part, I don't collect and hort old chips witout purpose. I collect old machines, and these chips are vital spare parts. Maybe we can stress again the old Car vs Computer collector picture. Collectin chips is to me like collecting crankshafts or pistons to a car collector. They may be realy nice, and there is an awful lot of various details and variations to collect, but the best place is still inside an engine to keep a car running - no part can be so beautifull that I would prefere it above the whole machine. > But then, they are not here at the moment and I am, so > I am more than willing to "distribute" > them to legitimate collectors for you. In otherwords, > I am willing to be the "middleman". I buy the chips from > you (for more than you think they are worth) and I then > put them in the hands of legitmate chip collectors. So machine collectors are not legitimate ? (SCNR) > You get some cash and get to know that your old chips > will be preserved and enjoyed by others instead of > sitting in some box in your garage. Will I make money > on the deal? I might, but if I do, I'll just use it to buy > other chips I do not have from other collectors. Most > collectors obtain most of there chips thru trading. But > that only works if you have chips to trade. I don't have > any old computers to trade so I offer you cash instead. Now if this implies to get old computers to just rip of some chips, you may realy offend some members. (*) > However, if you do need a chip, there's a good chance > I can find it for you. In fact, I've got a special this week. > Purple C8080A's for only $600 ea. - Just kidding! I can get you the white > and gold ones for less than that. > Besides, why do you need a C8080A when a P8080A will work just as well? I > can get those for $5. Like with car collectors, there a two species - one that realy want to keep it in an totaly as original delivered configuration, who would put in a similar chip only as long as they can't find the 'real' one, and the ones who want to keep it in a good or better as good to use condition, who don't care about non infuencal parts (like using a P instead of a C) Well, let's see. BTW: I have some 8080s and similar stuff - Got to look, but most are white ceramic (and some grey) ... (And Sallam, don't piss him off - let me first sell some spare :) Gruss H. (*) Serious, if wou scrap machines to get chips, I'd like to get a note from you before you do so - maybe you can have the same chips you would loot (or a few more) in exchange for the untouched machine. -- VCF Europa 3.0 am 27./28. April 2002 in Muenchen http://www.vcfe.org/ From tothwolf at concentric.net Mon Nov 19 14:11:24 2001 From: tothwolf at concentric.net (Tothwolf) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:23:39 2005 Subject: 1771 floppy controller questions Message-ID: I have a complete TRS-80 Model I that has a dead Western Digital FD1771-01 chip in its expansion interface. Does anyone know if a National 1771-B01 is a suitable replacement? What would be a fair/reasonable price for a new 1771 these days? -Toth From stanb at dial.pipex.com Mon Nov 19 12:49:04 2001 From: stanb at dial.pipex.com (Stan Barr) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:23:39 2005 Subject: OT: paging MAC expert(s) --- What's a Performa? In-Reply-To: Your message of "Mon, 19 Nov 2001 08:18:38 MST." <003a01c1710d$76e4bc60$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> Message-ID: <200111191849.SAA27109@citadel.metropolis.local> > I've drawn the conclusion that the only real memory-hog is the Netscape browser. > A couple of folks have advised me to install a 32MB simm for that purpose alone. > It would certainly be a shame to make the system buckle when browsing just > because it lacks RAM. > > Does anyone know otherwise? It would be a waste to invest in expanding the RAM > if it's unwarranted, though I've never heard complaints about too much RAM. > > Dick > Netscape is a memory hog, but will run in as little as 8MB. V4.08 uses about 12-14MB in my system, but more RAM never hurts...except the wallet! Go look at iCab: http://www.icab.de/ faster and smaller. I think the preview version is still free for the moment. -- Cheers, Stan Barr stanb@dial.pipex.com The future was never like this! From stanb at dial.pipex.com Mon Nov 19 13:07:22 2001 From: stanb at dial.pipex.com (Stan Barr) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:23:39 2005 Subject: OT: paging MAC expert(s) --- What's a Performa? In-Reply-To: Your message of "Mon, 19 Nov 2001 09:03:49 MST." <000c01c17113$c6f13b60$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> Message-ID: <200111191907.TAA27161@citadel.metropolis.local> > There does appear to be a problem with transporting files/data from a computer > to a MAC. Apparently, if I move things to a PC diskette, I can only read the > content as data on the MAC, so there's got to be another way to get stuff from > the web to these MAC's. I'm not patient enough to wait for a transfer at 2400 > baud on those GV Teleport Bronze modems. Try do download them as .sit (Stuffit), .hqx or .gz (gzip) files and copy them over to the Mac. Unstuff them with Stuffit Expander and you'll have no problems. I regularly get Mac stuff using this Linux box (faster modem!). Avoid .sea (Self Extracting Archive?) files as they're Mac applications and will have problems. -- Cheers, Stan Barr stanb@dial.pipex.com The future was never like this! From edick at idcomm.com Mon Nov 19 16:11:38 2001 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:23:39 2005 Subject: 1771 floppy controller questions References: Message-ID: <003a01c17147$28d5c700$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> You can get one for cheap if you go down to the thrift store and buy an old TRS-80. That will cost less than a new WD1771, I'd bet. Dick ----- Original Message ----- From: "Tothwolf" To: Sent: Monday, November 19, 2001 1:11 PM Subject: 1771 floppy controller questions > I have a complete TRS-80 Model I that has a dead Western Digital FD1771-01 > chip in its expansion interface. Does anyone know if a National 1771-B01 > is a suitable replacement? What would be a fair/reasonable price for a new > 1771 these days? > > -Toth > > From swtpc6800 at home.com Mon Nov 19 21:22:00 2001 From: swtpc6800 at home.com (Michael Holley) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:23:39 2005 Subject: 1771 floppy controller questions References: Message-ID: <001701c17172$84b88460$9865fea9@downstairs> B. G. Micro, www.bgmicro.com, has FD1771s for $4.95. Michael Holley http://www.swtpc.com/mholley/index.html ----- Original Message ----- From: "Tothwolf" To: Sent: Monday, November 19, 2001 12:11 PM Subject: 1771 floppy controller questions > I have a complete TRS-80 Model I that has a dead Western Digital FD1771-01 > chip in its expansion interface. Does anyone know if a National 1771-B01 > is a suitable replacement? What would be a fair/reasonable price for a new > 1771 these days? > > -Toth > > From edick at idcomm.com Mon Nov 19 15:33:42 2001 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:23:39 2005 Subject: OT: paging MAC expert(s) --- What's a Performa? References: Message-ID: <001801c17141$dca07240$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> Well, I hope it's documented. At least there's a NETSCRAPE for DUMMIES book I can give someone for Christmas. How difficult is it to learn this iCab? I don't want to have to learn it in order to teach someone else. Is it pretty intuitive? (that way I can answer questions on the phone and have some chance of guessing right.) Dick ----- Original Message ----- From: "Chris" To: "Classic Computer" Sent: Monday, November 19, 2001 12:06 PM Subject: Re: OT: paging MAC expert(s) --- What's a Performa? > >I've drawn the conclusion that the only real memory-hog is the Netscape > >browser. > >A couple of folks have advised me to install a 32MB simm for that purpose > >alone. > >It would certainly be a shame to make the system buckle when browsing just > >because it lacks RAM. > > I would give iCab a try (www.icab.de), it is free, and works extremely > well. It uses way less RAM than Netscape, so it should work with just 8mb > installed (4mb might be tight). I am running the latest version right now > and it is taking up just 2.9mb of RAM. > > It is also faster and more stable than Netscape in my experience... and > it is actively under development even for the 68k version, something you > won't get with Netscape (the 68k version is dead in the water for > Netscape). > > -chris > > > > From edick at idcomm.com Mon Nov 19 15:34:42 2001 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:23:39 2005 Subject: OT: paging MAC expert(s) --- What's a Performa? References: Message-ID: <002001c17142$01aed5e0$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> Well, I'm not complaining, except that it wasn't what I was expecting the thing to do. It's not a problem if one can know in advance and make a pot of coffee. Dick ----- Original Message ----- From: "Chris" To: "Classic Computer" Sent: Monday, November 19, 2001 12:10 PM Subject: RE: OT: paging MAC expert(s) --- What's a Performa? > >I have yet to figure out why they couldn't have done the disk reads/writes > >in the background while you do some other things. I believe it's likely to > >be a "left-over" from early days. > > Certain hardware could do background read/write starting with 7.5.3 (? > maybe .5). I used to do it with my Quarda 610. Also, as of OS 8.0, > read/write can be done in the background on all hardware that supports OS > 8.0 (32 bit clean, 040's or better). I regularly put long file copies in > the background and continue doing other things. > > -chris > > > > From spectre at stockholm.ptloma.edu Mon Nov 19 15:35:31 2001 From: spectre at stockholm.ptloma.edu (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:23:39 2005 Subject: OT: paging MAC expert(s) --- What's a Performa? In-Reply-To: <004001c17119$b83840e0$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> from Richard Erlacher at "Nov 19, 1 09:46:21 am" Message-ID: <200111192135.NAA08508@stockholm.ptloma.edu> > Have you got hands-on experience with Netscrape on the MAC with <20 MB? That > makes a difference, since I can then configure both boxes the same way, having > the required parts in house. Yes. I run it fine on a IIsi with only 16MB. The key is to use a nice old version like 2.02 that has most of the functionality of the current version and just lacks the gee-whiz crap you didn't need anyhow. -- ----------------------------- personal page: http://www.armory.com/~spectre/ -- Cameron Kaiser, Point Loma Nazarene University * ckaiser@stockholm.ptloma.edu -- I'm a dyslexic amateur orthinologist. I just love word-botching. ----------- From edick at idcomm.com Mon Nov 19 16:05:47 2001 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:23:39 2005 Subject: OT: paging MAC expert(s) --- What's a Performa? References: <3B55D7F383B0D31197D9009027541CBF1170DE98@cmiexch1.cmi.itds.com> <000f01c17126$bed4d640$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> <3BF94534.64957004@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <002401c17146$57c59320$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> Well, I've said this before, but not this week ... My experience has been that folks who have a backup device, capable of doing a full scheduled (automatic, without human intervention) system backup of everything accessible to the system on a single element of the medium the device uses, always seem to have good backup. That's not true of the guys who have to swap disks or tapes. It doesn't have to be that way, but history seems to support the notion that it's a really good thing to keep in mind. For some guys that means they have to have a library of very large capacity, and, therefore, cost, but that's the price of having your data secured. The procedure I use is automatic enough, but terribly time-consuming. It requires that I deal with the WIndows long file names with a program called DOSLFNBK, which substitutes DOS-compatible 8.3 names for the longer WINDOWS filenames, and maintains a lookup table of them. It then backs up to tape, and then reverses the DOSLFNBK process before the system is once again useable except under DOS. more below ... Dick ----- Original Message ----- From: "Ben Franchuk" To: Sent: Monday, November 19, 2001 10:45 AM Subject: Re: OT: paging MAC expert(s) --- What's a Performa? > Richard Erlacher wrote: > > There's something about the OS that interferes with a backup. The Microsoft > > Backup for Win98 seems to work ...sorta... but it only works ...sorta... and > > falls down many times, misinterpreting a drive that the OS recognizes correctly > > to be a 2GB partition to be 300+ Terabytes. Naturally it falls down later > > because of that problem. > > I suspect this was you were never meant to backup the complete system. > Why that might mean somebody could make a illegal copy of windows. > The few backup programs I have looked at but never could afford still > run under DOS and will back up your windows system with out the OS. > There is just too much crap in windows that makes it nearly impossible > to backup. And of course you have to load windows to run a windows > backup. > (Stupid)! > That's not entirely true, since some 3rd party products have "emergency recovery" or crash recovery procedures that will restore from a backup set without first reinstalling the OS. Now, moving 875 GB from tape to disk takes a while and installing Windows, which takes 30-45 minutes, will trim as much as 2 hours off that time, but it's quite a bit safer to restore the last known-good backup and go from there. Some 3rd party software also specifically includes backup of the registry, which is key to restoring the system as-is. I really don't see how they can restore a file without the corresponding registry entries. > > > An OS without a real backup utility is of little use because you have to have > > backup ... not just copies of things, but a real backup, context and all, that > > enables you to get back to where you were. DOS didn't have that, UNIX doesn't > > have it (though it does have TAR, which makes copies to tape), OS/2 doesn't have > > it, LINUX doesn't have it ... I don't know what a guy's to do. I guess > > image-copying the disk to tape, empty space and all, is the only solution. Of > > course that means the files are replaceable only on an all or nothing basis. > > ^%$#@! ... what a bunch of crap! > > Since I have a small HD I do a tar from my boot disk for linux, for the > entire HD to a bunch of Zip disks. A bit messy but I know I recover > the entire OS should my HD fail with tar. > I keep waiting for a current set of doc's for LINUX. However, while the OS may be on version 12-something (which it's not) the doc is still on version 0.0-something, (not really the case either) but it's not far into the basic doc's that one runs into missing key words, like "NOT." I use Windows, so I can't get by with a small hard disk. By today's standards, however, a 100GB hard disk is a small one, so maybe one can get by with a small drive. (Have you tried to buy a new <10GB drive lately?) On that scale, I guess what I use is considered tiny. > > Ben Franchuk. > > From edick at idcomm.com Mon Nov 19 16:09:43 2001 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:23:39 2005 Subject: OT: paging MAC expert(s) --- What's a Performa? References: <3B55D7F383B0D31197D9009027541CBF1170DE9F@cmiexch1.cmi.itds.com> Message-ID: <002a01c17146$e4c5c420$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> If your recorded "backup" is a bit-for-bit image of the disk contents, transferred to and from tape, there's no interpretation of the contents into files that can take place, is there? The Microsoft Backup that came with DOS, (a) never really was a backup, but, rather, was just a copy, and (b) never worked together with its "restore" function. Under DOS, copies were adequate, since the context didn't matter. Dick ----- Original Message ----- From: "Christopher Smith" To: Sent: Monday, November 19, 2001 12:24 PM Subject: RE: OT: paging MAC expert(s) --- What's a Performa? > > -----Original Message----- > > From: Richard Erlacher [mailto:edick@idcomm.com] > > > I'm concerned mainly about Win9x. There were numerous backup > > packages that > > worked VERY well under [DOS6.22/Win3.11]. Since the release > > of Win9x, I've > > bought several backup packages, and a couple of releases of > > each, yet not seen > > one that even barely worked on any sort of consistent basis. > > Ahh, well if you allow third-parties into the picture, it changes somewhat. > > > [Backup utility problems snipped] > > > There's something about the OS that interferes with a backup. > > The Microsoft > > Backup for Win98 seems to work ...sorta... but it only works > > ...sorta... and > > falls down many times, misinterpreting a drive that the OS > > recognizes correctly > > to be a 2GB partition to be 300+ Terabytes. Naturally it > > falls down later > > because of that problem. > > Since it's a microsoft utility, you can bet that the moment you upgrade > windows, the backups will be unusable, since the new, improved version will > be completely incompatible. > > > An OS without a real backup utility is of little use because > > you have to have > > backup ... not just copies of things, but a real backup, > > context and all, that > > Bingo. Windows is not an enterprise class system, nor, IMNSHO, is it even > worthy of being used in a production context. ... but back to the topic at > hand. :) > > > enables you to get back to where you were. DOS didn't have > > In a single utility? Perhaps not, but how much "context" do you expect from > DOS? :) The built-in backup program would copy files onto some other > medium, and a recovery disk could at least be made relatively simply. Maybe > I'm misunderstanding your complaint, though. > > My problem with the DOS backup utility was that every time somebody at m$ > re-compiled something, your old backups were useless. > > I assume a third-party add-on would fix that. > > > that, UNIX doesn't > > have it (though it does have TAR, which makes copies to > > I find that TAR gives me useable backups in general. Again, there's no such > thing as a "standalone tar," so you'll need a recovery disk/tape/something. > > It also has CPIO if you're into that sort of thing, and several third-party > things. > > > tape), OS/2 doesn't have > > it, LINUX doesn't have it ... I don't know what a guy's to > > See unix above... also note that TAR may be available for OS/2. > > It is slightly harder to build an OS/2 recovery disk. > > > do. I guess > > image-copying the disk to tape, empty space and all, is the > > only solution. Of > > course that means the files are replaceable only on an all or > > nothing basis. > > Well, do you consider that space part of your "context?" Where is the line > drawn? Also note that the empty space isn't exactly empty in most cases. > > As for "all-or-nothing" replacement, that's not exactly the case. You > certainly could mount an image right from the backup device (very slowly for > tape ;) and read files out. It would be a larger problem if your backups > don't fit filesystem-for-cartrige. > > I'm relatively convinced that as long as you can backup files and attributes > (including ACL, etc), treating special files as if they were (special, that > is...), you ought to be ok. > > The only place you'd get bitten is in systems that need to know an exact > location of a bootable image, or other such special file. That can probably > be handled in the restore procedure, though. > > So I think DOS and Unix can be backed up pretty well. Windows is a > different story, I guess. It would help, for windows, of course, if they'd > provide a decent, uniform, block-device access method. Don't hold your > breath, though. > > > ^%$#@! ... what a bunch of crap! > > What really makes it inexcusable is the fact that a backup utility shouldn't > be too difficult to cook up. > > Regards, > > Chris > > > Christopher Smith, Perl Developer > Amdocs - Champaign, IL > > /usr/bin/perl -e ' > print((~"\x95\xc4\xe3"^"Just Another Perl Hacker.")."\x08!\n"); > ' > > > From jfoust at threedee.com Mon Nov 19 16:57:10 2001 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:23:39 2005 Subject: OT: paging MAC expert(s) --- What's a Performa? In-Reply-To: <002401c17146$57c59320$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> References: <3B55D7F383B0D31197D9009027541CBF1170DE98@cmiexch1.cmi.itds.com> <000f01c17126$bed4d640$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> <3BF94534.64957004@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <5.0.0.25.0.20011119165437.022272e8@pc> At 03:05 PM 11/19/2001 -0700, you wrote: >My experience has been that folks who have a backup device, capable of doing a >full scheduled (automatic, without human intervention) system backup of >everything accessible to the system on a single element of the medium the device >uses, always seem to have good backup. These days on today's PCs, it's easier to buy a spare hard disk, and copy (using 'at', the scheduler, TaskZip, whatever) your vital files to it. Take a tape backup off-site as frequently as you like, or just carry the spare hard disk. - John From edick at idcomm.com Mon Nov 19 19:15:46 2001 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:23:39 2005 Subject: OT: paging MAC expert(s) --- What's a Performa? References: <3B55D7F383B0D31197D9009027541CBF1170DE98@cmiexch1.cmi.itds.com> <000f01c17126$bed4d640$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> <3BF94534.64957004@jetnet.ab.ca> <5.0.0.25.0.20011119165437.022272e8@pc> Message-ID: <002d01c17160$e3077380$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> Well, there's one of the differences between backup and file copy. If you introduce a spare disk to a system then, at least in the case of the various post-'9x Windows, the OS "sees" it, registers it, and any viruses on the system are, immediately on that drive as well. With a TAPE utility, however, virus or not, if the program runs, it copies the data to tape under control of a backup utility that either doesn't work because it has been corrupted, or, if you were clever and run the program form a write-locked removable, then it (the backup utility) runs on the removable platter and transfer the data, corrupted or not, from the hard disk to the tape. Viruses can't deal directly with the tape, just as the OS can't deal directly with the tape. A virus that gets onto a tape won't be an executable, hence probably won't go there except in the form of already-corrupted files. As a result, I've concluded DISK is unsuitable for backup on Windows PC's. Now, I recently saw a DVD writer for under $500. ($375) If there's any sort of support software for backup, that might present a useable solution, since a DVD writer would not appear to Windows as a disk drive. Of course, MAC OS may not be so virus friendly, but I don't know about that. The "spare" HD would have to be a SCSI drive, right? How does the MAC go about recognizing a valid SCSI device? What has to be done to a JAZ platter to make it (the MAC) recognize it. Dick ----- Original Message ----- From: "John Foust" To: Sent: Monday, November 19, 2001 3:57 PM Subject: Re: OT: paging MAC expert(s) --- What's a Performa? > At 03:05 PM 11/19/2001 -0700, you wrote: > >My experience has been that folks who have a backup device, capable of doing a > >full scheduled (automatic, without human intervention) system backup of > >everything accessible to the system on a single element of the medium the device > >uses, always seem to have good backup. > > These days on today's PCs, it's easier to buy a spare > hard disk, and copy (using 'at', the scheduler, TaskZip, > whatever) your vital files to it. Take a tape backup > off-site as frequently as you like, or just carry the > spare hard disk. > > - John > > From greg at cosc.canterbury.ac.nz Mon Nov 19 20:22:05 2001 From: greg at cosc.canterbury.ac.nz (Greg Ewing) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:23:39 2005 Subject: OT: paging MAC expert(s) --- What's a Performa? In-Reply-To: <002d01c17160$e3077380$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> Message-ID: <200111200222.PAA14062@s454.cosc.canterbury.ac.nz> Richard Erlacher : > Of course, MAC OS may not be so virus friendly, but I don't know > about that. I can't think of a way for a virus to jump onto a disk on a Mac simply by the disk being there, without any virus-infected program running. Unless a virus has attacked the Finder or the OS itself, which is a possibility, I suppose. But even then, the virus can't jump *off* the disk onto a previously clean system without running something from the disk, and that won't happen unless you explicitly tell it to. If there's some way for that to happen on Windows, then Windows is definitely more virus-friendly! Greg Ewing, Computer Science Dept, +--------------------------------------+ University of Canterbury, | A citizen of NewZealandCorp, a | Christchurch, New Zealand | wholly-owned subsidiary of USA Inc. | greg@cosc.canterbury.ac.nz +--------------------------------------+ From csmith at amdocs.com Mon Nov 19 17:00:39 2001 From: csmith at amdocs.com (Christopher Smith) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:23:39 2005 Subject: OT: paging MAC expert(s) --- What's a Performa? Message-ID: <3B55D7F383B0D31197D9009027541CBF1170DEA5@cmiexch1.cmi.itds.com> > -----Original Message----- > From: Richard Erlacher [mailto:edick@idcomm.com] > If your recorded "backup" is a bit-for-bit image of the disk contents, > transferred to and from tape, there's no interpretation of > the contents into > files that can take place, is there? That's an interesting way to phrase this particular question, since the contents are already in the form of "files" -- that is, if you ask the set of drivers that got them to the disk in the first place. :) I believe it's possible (though it would be slow) to interpret a bit-for-bit image directly on a tape and extract any given file, along with attributes, etc. In fact, any operation that would be possible on a disk, in this case, could be handled on a tape. The clincher is that it would involve a lot of seek/rewind/seek/etc/etc.. The underlying O/S need not even know the difference between the disk and tape, except to know that the tape is removable (...that's not absolutely required), and perhaps that it's incredibly slow. The worst that would be required is a device abstraction layer or the like. You could write one yourself which would make the tape device "look" like a disk device, for systems which don't have such a thing, and that would be enough. How would you like to be able to mount your backup tape, and use a file-manager on it? ;) > The Microsoft Backup that came with DOS, (a) never really was > a backup, but, > rather, was just a copy, and (b) never worked together with > its "restore" > function. Under DOS, copies were adequate, since the context > didn't matter. If you mean that it didn't store attributes, or that sort of thing, you may be right (never paid attention.) On the other hand, you're also right to say that it wouldn't particularly matter under MS-DOS. Regards, Chris Christopher Smith, Perl Developer Amdocs - Champaign, IL /usr/bin/perl -e ' print((~"\x95\xc4\xe3"^"Just Another Perl Hacker.")."\x08!\n"); ' From edick at idcomm.com Mon Nov 19 19:07:43 2001 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:23:39 2005 Subject: OT: paging MAC expert(s) --- What's a Performa? References: <3B55D7F383B0D31197D9009027541CBF1170DEA5@cmiexch1.cmi.itds.com> Message-ID: <002701c1715f$c204a280$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> If you're meaning operating on the tape contents, you're talking about weeks to months. The bits of a file are scattered around the disk, since it's random access, albeit in "clusters" or whatever you choose to call them, and in blocks, as the data buffer stores them, but unless you KNOW where the directory is in the bitwise image of the disk, and unless you know where all the pieces of the drive are to be found in the tape image, I'd submit it would be a mite tedious. The problem, of course, with image backup, is that the bits have to be extracted from the drive at the raw data level, i.e. with controller commands you normally don't deal with, and they can't be faithfully restored to a drive that's not physically identical to the one you started with, i.e. same number of heads, cylinders, sectors, etc, PHYSICALLY, else things fall apart, since we don't know how the drive firmware deals with translating from the block-level commands the OS may choose to send it, though it doesn't have to, to the buffers-full of data that the drive coughs up. Remember, when you restart the system, it has no OS other than what you can load from a floppy. IF that's the same, which certainly isn't the case under WIndows, as what you used to do the backup, then you're able, potentially, to deal with the data to be transferred to the newly cleaned drive in the same way that this particular OS deals with it. Of course, the OS doesn't know what you're doing, and doesn't know how to read the data on the disk, except as raw data, dealt with in buffer-fulls, and than only using the code you've written. Dick ----- Original Message ----- From: "Christopher Smith" To: Sent: Monday, November 19, 2001 4:00 PM Subject: RE: OT: paging MAC expert(s) --- What's a Performa? > > -----Original Message----- > > From: Richard Erlacher [mailto:edick@idcomm.com] > > > If your recorded "backup" is a bit-for-bit image of the disk contents, > > transferred to and from tape, there's no interpretation of > > the contents into > > files that can take place, is there? > > That's an interesting way to phrase this particular question, since the > contents are already in the form of "files" -- that is, if you ask the set > of drivers that got them to the disk in the first place. :) > > I believe it's possible (though it would be slow) to interpret a bit-for-bit > image directly on a tape and extract any given file, along with attributes, > etc. In fact, any operation that would be possible on a disk, in this case, > could be handled on a tape. The clincher is that it would involve a lot of > seek/rewind/seek/etc/etc.. > > The underlying O/S need not even know the difference between the disk and > tape, except to know that the tape is removable (...that's not absolutely > required), and perhaps that it's incredibly slow. > > The worst that would be required is a device abstraction layer or the like. > You could write one yourself which would make the tape device "look" like a > disk device, for systems which don't have such a thing, and that would be > enough. > > How would you like to be able to mount your backup tape, and use a > file-manager on it? ;) > > > The Microsoft Backup that came with DOS, (a) never really was > > a backup, but, > > rather, was just a copy, and (b) never worked together with > > its "restore" > > function. Under DOS, copies were adequate, since the context > > didn't matter. > > If you mean that it didn't store attributes, or that sort of thing, you may > be right (never paid attention.) On the other hand, you're also right to > say that it wouldn't particularly matter under MS-DOS. > > Regards, > > Chris > > > Christopher Smith, Perl Developer > Amdocs - Champaign, IL > > /usr/bin/perl -e ' > print((~"\x95\xc4\xe3"^"Just Another Perl Hacker.")."\x08!\n"); > ' > > > From mythtech at Mac.com Mon Nov 19 17:19:05 2001 From: mythtech at Mac.com (Chris) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:23:39 2005 Subject: OT: paging MAC expert(s) --- What's a Performa? Message-ID: >Well, I hope it's documented. At least there's a NETSCRAPE for DUMMIES >book I >can give someone for Christmas. How difficult is it to learn this iCab? I >don't want to have to learn it in order to teach someone else. Is it pretty >intuitive? (that way I can answer questions on the phone and have some >chance >of guessing right.) If you can browse the web, you can operate iCab. You probably will never find a book on iCab, because it doesn't need one... it works, and it works in the most obvious of ways (type in a url, or choose one from the hotlist menu). It doesn't suffer from bloatware, so there is nothing to get lost or confused with. If you can read, you can work iCab (and you need not have to read a specific language, as it is available in a bunch of them). -chris From edick at idcomm.com Mon Nov 19 19:19:47 2001 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:23:39 2005 Subject: OT: paging MAC expert(s) --- What's a Performa? References: Message-ID: <003501c17161$720ff7a0$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> Well, that's a "Which came first the chicken or the egg?" question, since the person to whom this box is going hasn't done any web browsing. My own first experiences were with NetCruiser (Netcom) and with MOSAIC (NCSA), aside from a couple of cripling experiences with LYNX. After using LYNX, by the way, I switched to a shell-based interface via Win3.1x called ICOMM. That worked OK, considering. Dick ----- Original Message ----- From: "Chris" To: "Classic Computer" Sent: Monday, November 19, 2001 4:19 PM Subject: Re: OT: paging MAC expert(s) --- What's a Performa? > >Well, I hope it's documented. At least there's a NETSCRAPE for DUMMIES > >book I > >can give someone for Christmas. How difficult is it to learn this iCab? I > >don't want to have to learn it in order to teach someone else. Is it pretty > >intuitive? (that way I can answer questions on the phone and have some > >chance > >of guessing right.) > > If you can browse the web, you can operate iCab. You probably will never > find a book on iCab, because it doesn't need one... it works, and it > works in the most obvious of ways (type in a url, or choose one from the > hotlist menu). It doesn't suffer from bloatware, so there is nothing to > get lost or confused with. If you can read, you can work iCab (and you > need not have to read a specific language, as it is available in a bunch > of them). > > -chris > > > > From greg at cosc.canterbury.ac.nz Mon Nov 19 18:26:50 2001 From: greg at cosc.canterbury.ac.nz (Greg Ewing) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:23:39 2005 Subject: OT: paging MAC expert(s) --- What's a Performa? In-Reply-To: <3B55D7F383B0D31197D9009027541CBF1170DE89@cmiexch1.cmi.itds.com> Message-ID: <200111200026.NAA14000@s454.cosc.canterbury.ac.nz> Christopher Smith : > Finder is the Macintosh shell. Best not to confuse the users with terms > like "file manager," "shell," "interface," "front-end," Those are such dry, boring, Microsoft-sounding names. Finder is so much cooler! And it's not so much of a misnomer if you think of it the right way. It lets *you* find things -- i.e. browse the file system. Also, it finds an appropriate application to launch for you when you open a document. By the way, System 7 and later Finders do have a "Find..." command that will let you search for files by name. Greg Ewing, Computer Science Dept, +--------------------------------------+ University of Canterbury, | A citizen of NewZealandCorp, a | Christchurch, New Zealand | wholly-owned subsidiary of USA Inc. | greg@cosc.canterbury.ac.nz +--------------------------------------+ From edick at idcomm.com Mon Nov 19 19:22:34 2001 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:23:39 2005 Subject: OT: paging MAC expert(s) --- What's a Performa? References: <200111200026.NAA14000@s454.cosc.canterbury.ac.nz> Message-ID: <004701c17161$d5293ae0$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> Well, that's quite true, isn't it? The one observation I'd make is that, to those of us who can't remember computers much before Microsoft, the microsoft terms are quite a bit more familiar, while the Apple terms are like Greek. I suppose it's much the same looking the other direction. Dick ----- Original Message ----- From: "Greg Ewing" To: Sent: Monday, November 19, 2001 5:26 PM Subject: RE: OT: paging MAC expert(s) --- What's a Performa? > Christopher Smith : > > > Finder is the Macintosh shell. Best not to confuse the users with terms > > like "file manager," "shell," "interface," "front-end," > > Those are such dry, boring, Microsoft-sounding names. > Finder is so much cooler! > > And it's not so much of a misnomer if you think of it > the right way. It lets *you* find things -- i.e. browse > the file system. Also, it finds an appropriate application > to launch for you when you open a document. > > By the way, System 7 and later Finders do have a > "Find..." command that will let you search for files > by name. > > Greg Ewing, Computer Science Dept, +--------------------------------------+ > University of Canterbury, | A citizen of NewZealandCorp, a | > Christchurch, New Zealand | wholly-owned subsidiary of USA Inc. | > greg@cosc.canterbury.ac.nz +--------------------------------------+ > > From mythtech at Mac.com Mon Nov 19 20:45:54 2001 From: mythtech at Mac.com (Chris) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:23:39 2005 Subject: OT: paging MAC expert(s) --- What's a Performa? Message-ID: <200111200245.UAA13701@opal.tseinc.com> >Of course, MAC OS may not be so virus friendly, but I don't know about that. >The "spare" HD would have to be a SCSI drive, right? How does the MAC go >about >recognizing a valid SCSI device? What has to be done to a JAZ platter to >make >it (the MAC) recognize it. The MacOS is technically no more or less virus friendly than Windows. You just don't have some of the obvious security flaws (like VBScript). But the main reason viri aren't as rampant on the mac as they are on the PC is simply, if you are going to write a virus you are probably trying to hit as many computers as possible... so why write for a 5% market share when you can write for a 90% market share. As for recognizing SCSI devices. The Mac will recognize that a device is connected (if you have some kind of a scsi probe, you can see that the mac knows it is there), but depending on the device, it may or may not be usable without additional software. In the case of tape drives, you need software that will talk to them (like retrospect), Zip and Jaz drives have a small extension that will let the OS see them and treat them like high capacity floppy drives (and I think that extension may have been rolled into OS 9.x but I'm not positive). CDs are similar, they have a driver with the OS, (although that driver tends to only want to support Apple approved CDs, so there are 3rd party drivers like FWB's CD Toolkit, and Toast's CD Reader). Hard Drive support is built into the OS (low level formating and partitioning may need 3rd party software if it isn't an "Apple" drive). Most everything else needs 3rd party software (like scanners, SCSI->Ethernet adaptors, etc.), but usually, the software/drivers are free, and will come with the device (like my Umax scanner software is available free from Umax's web site... but it only works with their scanners) -chris From mythtech at Mac.com Mon Nov 19 21:22:47 2001 From: mythtech at Mac.com (Chris) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:23:39 2005 Subject: OT: paging MAC expert(s) --- What's a Performa? Message-ID: <200111200322.VAA14346@opal.tseinc.com> >I can't think of a way for a virus to jump onto a disk on a Mac simply >by the disk being there, without any virus-infected program >running. Unless a virus has attacked the Finder or the OS itself, >which is a possibility, I suppose. WDEF could do this, but it was rendered dead by System 7 (it infected the System 6 and earlier desktop database, so when a disk was inserted, it could spread to any uninfected desktop databases) >But even then, the virus can't jump *off* the disk onto a previously >clean system without running something from the disk, and that won't >happen unless you explicitly tell it to. If there's some way for that >to happen on Windows, then Windows is definitely more virus-friendly! Auto-Start worms, but then, you are really sort of running something off the disk (the worm), and these can be stopped by turning off the auto run on insert in the QuickTime control panel. -chris From zaft at azstarnet.com Mon Nov 19 16:13:58 2001 From: zaft at azstarnet.com (Gordon Zaft) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:23:39 2005 Subject: SCB68430 DMA controller data sheets etc. Message-ID: <4.3.2.7.2.20011119151244.00b1d0c8@mail.azstarnet.com> Anyone know of a source for data sheets and app notes for the SCB68430 DMA controller? I couldn't find anything via Google. GZ From Lee.Davison at merlincommunications.com Mon Nov 19 16:44:16 2001 From: Lee.Davison at merlincommunications.com (Davison, Lee) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:23:39 2005 Subject: SCB68430 DMA controller data sheets etc. Message-ID: <707AA588EE28D311BCD50090276D7D0002146DE3@BUSH02> Anyone know of a source for data sheets and app notes for the SCB68430 DMA controller? I couldn't find anything via Google. It's available on http:\\www.freetradezone.com . There are two versions of the sheet, D0194930.pdf is the 1988 version, D0191623.pdf is the earlier 1996 version. Lee. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- ---- This email is intended only for the above named addressee(s). The information contained in this email may contain information which is confidential. The views expressed in this email are personal to the sender and do not in any way reflect the views of the company. If you have received this email and you are not a named addressee please delete it from your system and contact Merlin Communications International IT Department on +44 20 7344 5888. _____________________________________________________________________ This message has been checked for all known viruses by Star Internet delivered through the MessageLabs Virus Scanning Service. For further information visit http://www.star.net.uk/stats.asp or alternatively call Star Internet for details on the Virus Scanning Service. From zaft at azstarnet.com Mon Nov 19 18:47:08 2001 From: zaft at azstarnet.com (Gordon Zaft) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:23:39 2005 Subject: SCB68430 DMA controller data sheets etc. In-Reply-To: <707AA588EE28D311BCD50090276D7D0002146DE3@BUSH02> Message-ID: <4.3.2.7.2.20011119174644.01ddb3f0@mail.azstarnet.com> At 10:44 PM 11/19/2001 +0000, you wrote: > Anyone know of a source for data sheets and app notes for >the SCB68430 DMA > controller? I couldn't find anything via Google. > > >It's available on http:\\www.freetradezone.com . There are two versions >of the sheet, D0194930.pdf is the 1988 version, D0191623.pdf is the >earlier 1996 version. Thanks! I was able to find it and a lot of other stuff too. GZ From CLeyson at aol.com Mon Nov 19 17:01:38 2001 From: CLeyson at aol.com (CLeyson@aol.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:23:39 2005 Subject: SCB68430 DMA controller data sheets etc. Message-ID: <9e.1d971788.292ae952@aol.com> In a message dated 11/19/01 10:25:21 PM GMT Standard Time, zaft@azstarnet.com writes: > SCB68430 Try www.partminer.com Chris Leyson -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20011119/18beb7a2/attachment.html From edick at idcomm.com Mon Nov 19 18:59:31 2001 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:23:39 2005 Subject: SCB68430 DMA controller data sheets etc. References: <4.3.2.7.2.20011119151244.00b1d0c8@mail.azstarnet.com> Message-ID: <001701c1715e$9cf2b1e0$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> That's a SIGNETICS part number and PHILIPS bought them in '89-'90 timeframe. Have you tried the Philips web site? Dick ----- Original Message ----- From: "Gordon Zaft" To: Sent: Monday, November 19, 2001 3:13 PM Subject: SCB68430 DMA controller data sheets etc. > > Anyone know of a source for data sheets and app notes for the SCB68430 DMA > controller? I couldn't find anything via Google. > > GZ > > From KenzieM at sympatico.ca Mon Nov 19 16:32:14 2001 From: KenzieM at sympatico.ca (Mike Kenzie) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:23:39 2005 Subject: Nortel yard sale References: <200111190323.WAA04615@freenet10.carleton.ca> Message-ID: <000601c1714a$11d7abb0$0101a8c0@sympatico.ca> I don't know how much classic stuff there may be but it anyone is interested: > > Anyone know about this: > > > > Item in Canadian Business magazine, November 26, 2001, p. 11. > > > > "If you like poking around garage sales, you won't wanna miss this. On Nov. > > 28 and 29 in Ottawa, Nortel will hold the first of a series of sales to try > > to raise $100 million to offset some of the billions lost in the past year. > > Globally, it hopes to unload more than 20,000 pieces of used equipment, some > > for less than 20% of original cost." From claudew at videotron.ca Mon Nov 19 20:04:41 2001 From: claudew at videotron.ca (Claude.W) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:23:39 2005 Subject: Nortel yard sale -- MORE DETAILS PLEASE!? References: <200111190323.WAA04615@freenet10.carleton.ca> <000601c1714a$11d7abb0$0101a8c0@sympatico.ca> Message-ID: <004f01c17167$b7d14540$0200a8c0@gamerclaude> Finally! Something interesting in Canada... Only a big hour drive from here and very interesting... I want more details Mike...!!! Claude ----- Original Message ----- From: "Mike Kenzie" To: Sent: Monday, November 19, 2001 5:32 PM Subject: Nortel yard sale > I don't know how much classic stuff there may be but it anyone is > interested: > > > > Anyone know about this: > > > > > > Item in Canadian Business magazine, November 26, 2001, p. 11. > > > > > > "If you like poking around garage sales, you won't wanna miss > this. On Nov. > > > 28 and 29 in Ottawa, Nortel will hold the first of a series of > sales to try > > > to raise $100 million to offset some of the billions lost in the > past year. > > > Globally, it hopes to unload more than 20,000 pieces of used > equipment, some > > > for less than 20% of original cost." > > From gmphillips at earthlink.net Mon Nov 19 16:53:48 2001 From: gmphillips at earthlink.net (John Galt) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:23:39 2005 Subject: Intel C8080A chip brings $565 on EBAY References: <7A9BACCEF0171D4FB77019F5104CDD37225935@jeffserver.tegjeff.com> Message-ID: <002901c1714d$0db5e710$0100a8c0@sys1> I have come to the conclusion that I have become "The Man" trying to "exploit the people" here, that I have become part of "The establishment". I think it is time to have the mothership beam me back up. Peace, Love, and all that good stuff. Later... John Galt P.S. Someone please explain to me how to unsubscribe from this mailing list. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Douglas Quebbeman" To: Sent: Monday, November 19, 2001 10:56 AM Subject: RE: Intel C8080A chip brings $565 on EBAY > > On the other hand, wearing a name tag that says "John Galt" > > in a room full of techies is an unpardonably cheesy offense. > > What would Bob the Lizard say? "...more gin..." > > -- > No Tourbots From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Nov 19 17:23:36 2001 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:23:39 2005 Subject: Intel C8080A chip brings $565 on EBAY In-Reply-To: <001301c170a0$5e49fcf0$0100a8c0@sys1> from "John Galt" at Nov 18, 1 09:17:40 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 2067 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20011119/72587d38/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Nov 19 17:30:24 2001 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:23:39 2005 Subject: Intel C8080A chip brings $565 on EBAY In-Reply-To: <001501c170ac$5276fca0$0100a8c0@sys1> from "John Galt" at Nov 18, 1 10:43:15 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1859 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20011119/7bd0e021/attachment.ksh From bshannon at tiac.net Mon Nov 19 21:00:08 2001 From: bshannon at tiac.net (Bob Shannon) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:23:39 2005 Subject: Intel C8080A chip brings $565 on EBAY References: <20011119025154.HEKA10804.tomts19-srv.bellnexxia.net@duron> <3BF7B165.8D0DB730@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <3BF9C738.3C969739@tiac.net> Becauce the 'new' Imsai is not an S-100 machine? Ben Franchuk wrote: > jpero@sympatico.ca wrote: > > That $2K for Imsai is the supply and demand fostered by clueless but > > greedy people who wanted to make this a collection stuff as a cash > > cow than simply using it and fixing it and play with it, that > > latter is amirable, former is frowned upon. Also Imsai is buggy and > > botched up box. There's better built and properly designed S-100 > > boxens to play with. > > > > Well the whole S-100 bus was a mess for the longest time. > > As reminder IMSAI is back in business at http://www.imsai.net/ > Here you can get parts for your classic 8080 computer or > a new 20MHZ Z80 S-100 bus computer for around $1K. Why pay $2k > for a 2 MHZ 8080 when you can get a 20 MHZ version for half the > price. :) > Ben Franchuk. > -- > Live "Pre-historic Cpu's" -- and you thought they were extinct. > www.jetnet.ab.ca/users/bfranchuk/index.html From bshannon at tiac.net Mon Nov 19 21:00:30 2001 From: bshannon at tiac.net (Bob Shannon) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:23:39 2005 Subject: Intel C8080A chip brings $565 on EBAY References: <20011119025154.HEKA10804.tomts19-srv.bellnexxia.net@duron> <3BF7B165.8D0DB730@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <3BF9C74E.DE6A9142@tiac.net> Because the 'new' Imsai is not an S-100 machine? Ben Franchuk wrote: > jpero@sympatico.ca wrote: > > That $2K for Imsai is the supply and demand fostered by clueless but > > greedy people who wanted to make this a collection stuff as a cash > > cow than simply using it and fixing it and play with it, that > > latter is amirable, former is frowned upon. Also Imsai is buggy and > > botched up box. There's better built and properly designed S-100 > > boxens to play with. > > > > Well the whole S-100 bus was a mess for the longest time. > > As reminder IMSAI is back in business at http://www.imsai.net/ > Here you can get parts for your classic 8080 computer or > a new 20MHZ Z80 S-100 bus computer for around $1K. Why pay $2k > for a 2 MHZ 8080 when you can get a 20 MHZ version for half the > price. :) > Ben Franchuk. > -- > Live "Pre-historic Cpu's" -- and you thought they were extinct. > www.jetnet.ab.ca/users/bfranchuk/index.html From bshannon at tiac.net Mon Nov 19 21:16:21 2001 From: bshannon at tiac.net (Bob Shannon) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:23:39 2005 Subject: Intel C8080A chip brings $565 on EBAY References: Message-ID: <3BF9CB05.ADC740D6@tiac.net> In my experiance, very early chips used a purple ceramic with a high thorium content causing the distinctive color. Unfortunatley, this thorium emits low level particles that cause soft errors, which became apparent in the early days of DRAM. This drove a change in ceramic processing and costs, pointing the way towards todays plastic packages. Sellam Ismail wrote: > On Mon, 19 Nov 2001, John Galt wrote: > > > As far as the color, chip collectors refer to that color chip as > > "purple". If you look at it next to a normal "gray" CerDIP, you can > > see the difference. Besides, it would not have mattered had it been > > black. The fact is, it's not the white/gold color of a normal Intel > > C8080A. The printing on the chip is also somewhat different. My > > guess is it's a late run C8080A that was put in the same package they > > used for some of the later C8085AH's. > > My questions is: why does this matter? Will researchers 50 years from now > find the Purple one useful for any sort of study? What makes the Purple > one special beyond just being a pretty if not questionable shade of > purple? > > Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ > International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org From foo at siconic.com Mon Nov 19 21:52:11 2001 From: foo at siconic.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:23:40 2005 Subject: Intel C8080A chip brings $565 on EBAY In-Reply-To: <3BF9CB05.ADC740D6@tiac.net> Message-ID: On Mon, 19 Nov 2001, Bob Shannon wrote: > In my experiance, very early chips used a purple ceramic with a high > thorium content causing the distinctive color. Unfortunatley, this > thorium emits low level particles that cause soft errors, which became > apparent in the early days of DRAM. > > This drove a change in ceramic processing and costs, pointing the way > towards todays plastic packages. Cool. This knowledge is worth a whole lot more to me than $565. :) Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Mon Nov 19 21:58:38 2001 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (ajp166) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:23:40 2005 Subject: Intel C8080A chip brings $565 on EBAY Message-ID: <00d201c17178$05623160$71ee9a8d@ajp166> That only applied to some of the darker ceramics and early parts were the white. They still had to remove or reduce the gold used in the bond wire and lead frames even for plastic. What drove the price of ceramic way up is ram and cpu prodution rates really jumped up from 1978 to 1984 and the production of ceramic packages could not keep pace. Plastic was always used for ram, and lower in cost. The problem was the early gray silicone plastics were far from hermetic. There would be several generations of the black stuff in an attempt to make the plastic less absorptive of moisture while trying better methods of passivating the die. Then there was the matter of disapating the heat. Even as late as 1984 the failure rates for the D416/4116 dynamic and 2114 and 2167 static parts was noteably higher for plastic than ceramic. I use those cases as they were mature parts by then and still plastic was viewed as less reliable though far lower in cost. Allison -----Original Message----- From: Bob Shannon To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org Date: Monday, November 19, 2001 10:22 PM Subject: Re: Intel C8080A chip brings $565 on EBAY >In my experiance, very early chips used a purple ceramic with a high thorium >content causing the distinctive color. Unfortunatley, this thorium emits low >level >particles that cause soft errors, which became apparent in the early days of DRAM. > >This drove a change in ceramic processing and costs, pointing the way towards >todays plastic packages. > >Sellam Ismail wrote: > >> On Mon, 19 Nov 2001, John Galt wrote: >> >> > As far as the color, chip collectors refer to that color chip as >> > "purple". If you look at it next to a normal "gray" CerDIP, you can >> > see the difference. Besides, it would not have mattered had it been >> > black. The fact is, it's not the white/gold color of a normal Intel >> > C8080A. The printing on the chip is also somewhat different. My >> > guess is it's a late run C8080A that was put in the same package they >> > used for some of the later C8085AH's. >> >> My questions is: why does this matter? Will researchers 50 years from now >> find the Purple one useful for any sort of study? What makes the Purple >> one special beyond just being a pretty if not questionable shade of >> purple? >> >> Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival >> ---------------------------------------------------------------------- -------- >> International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org > From mtapley at swri.edu Mon Nov 19 17:14:35 2001 From: mtapley at swri.edu (Mark Tapley) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:23:40 2005 Subject: Another Old-computer dealer. Message-ID: All, Located another dealer (Mike Hancock) of old computer parts in S. Central Texas, this one in San Antonio. This is of interest to me, because this is where SwRI's cast-offs go, so there is likely to be some *unique* equipment there. http://www.ctbicompany.com I think he has the same general M.O. as the previous place I found; that is to say, he gets a *lot* of stuff, filters out and saves what he thinks he can sell, then scraps the rest. I have not seen his warehouse. Have we developed a clear, easy-to-use "wanted" list or website for this group? It'd be neat to be able to hand this guy (Mike Hancock) or other dealers the list or URL, and tell them if they see something on the list, save it, it's worth $xxx. Could we set up a database/bid deal, where anyone can add to the list of "want" items, and what they'd pay for it? - Mark From dmabry at mich.com Mon Nov 19 17:25:24 2001 From: dmabry at mich.com (Dave Mabry) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:23:40 2005 Subject: Dead Intel MDS controller board Message-ID: <3BF994E4.F819727A@mich.com> Well, much to my dismay, but not too surprising, my last set of floppy diskette controller boards has failed and my Intel MDS is severely crippled. In my days of designing systems with Intel Microcomputer Development Systems I saw many of the floppy controller boards fail. That system had a two-board set of multibus cards in order to control up to four floppy diskettes. Seems kind of funny to call those huge 8" floppys "diskettes", but that's what they are. Anyway, of that two board set, I always have seen the same one fail. One card called the Channel Card which was based on Intel's 3000 series bipolar microprocessor never failed. It was always the other card, the Double Density Interface Board. When I "retired" all the MDSs where I worked, I kept three sets of those boards to keep my MDS going, fully expecting to have one or maybe even two go "bits up". Alas, last week, my third and last board set failed. And, yes, it was the interface card. The purpose of this post is to see if there might be someone on this list who would be able to advise me on a strategy for troubleshooting it (Tony Duell?) Better yet, but I'm not going to hold my breath on this one, would be someone who has an SBC-202 board-set he might be willing to part with, sell, trade, etc. Any ideas or leads would be appreciated. And, Tony, I might have a space ICE-80 manual for you. Will know next week. Thanks. Dave -- Dave Mabry dmabry@mich.com Dossin Museum Underwater Research Team NACD #2093 From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Nov 19 18:18:40 2001 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:23:40 2005 Subject: Dead Intel MDS controller board In-Reply-To: <3BF994E4.F819727A@mich.com> from "Dave Mabry" at Nov 19, 1 06:25:24 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1589 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20011120/3413e50b/attachment.ksh From dmabry at mich.com Mon Nov 19 19:52:41 2001 From: dmabry at mich.com (Dave Mabry) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:23:40 2005 Subject: Dead Intel MDS controller board References: Message-ID: <3BF9B769.7A7B0C21@mich.com> I have that manual (98-422A) and that is the correct one for the SBC-202. I think Intel just gave the 202 name to that board set when it was bought for integration into an application. I am anxious to try to troubleshoot this, but I'm not sure how to go about it. So far all I have tried to boot the MDS. It does select the correct drive and load the head. After a pause of about one second the Interrupt 2 light (on the cpu board, so it is coming from the multibus) lights solid and the boot code in the MDS system rom returns a nondescriptive error message "disk error". When it works correctly (two weeks ago) the interrupt 2 light would pulse (very lightly illuminate) during read. Now it comes on solid. I believe that Int2 is the signal from the controller boards signifying end of operation. FWIW, this seems to be the exact failure mode I've seen in every one I've had fail. And I have three of them to experiment on, if that helps. They work ok one minute, then the next they are bad. Nothing in between. And when I had one good set of boards, the other two sets definately had the interface board bad. I could make any of the three channel boards work with my one good interface board. That is until the last interface board failed. I just read through the manual tonight, but I still need help with a direction for shooting it. I was thinking that I should code a simple routine (in hex since that is all I can think of to load memory in this machine) to try to read somewhere on the disk and see what error code is returned. I would guess it will be CRC error. Note to list: Should we take this private or do you all want to see it? Tony Duell wrote: > > [Intellec FDC Channel board] > > > The purpose of this post is to see if there might be someone on this > > list who would be able to advise me on a strategy for troubleshooting it > > (Tony Duell?) Better yet, but I'm not going to hold my breath on this > > Oh, what the heck, I've got the manuals to hand. Or at least I've got > some manauls to hand. The most appropriate one is 'Intellec Double > Density Diskette Operating System Hardware Reference Manual', order > number 98-422A. I can't find the name 'SBC-202' anywhere on any of the > manuals, so this might not be 100% applicable. > > The interface board described in that manual seems to have 5 separate > sections on it : > > Read Data clcock recovery/sync > > CRC generator/checker > > Write data encoder > > Disk drive control/status signals (basically ports from the microcoded > machine on the other board) > > Bus control (for DMA transfers, mostly, I think). > > My first idea would be to find out which block was malfunctioning. Does > the FDC card appear on the bus at all? Can you select a floppy drive and > move the head around? What goes wrong if you try to read something? > > Since this board contains a fair amount of analogue circuitry (the read > data separator phase-locked loop), it's possible that the only thing > wrong with it is that that the oscillator in said loop has drifted way > off frequency and the loop can no longer lock. But don't start tweaking > things without doing some tests. > > Do you have the hardware manuals? My manual contains a reasonably good > theory-of-operation chapter which explains what's going on on that board. > > -tony -- Dave Mabry dmabry@mich.com Dossin Museum Underwater Research Team NACD #2093 From Innfogra at aol.com Mon Nov 19 20:18:01 2001 From: Innfogra at aol.com (Innfogra@aol.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:23:40 2005 Subject: Dead Intel MDS controller board Message-ID: In a message dated 11/19/01 6:01:22 PM Pacific Standard Time, dmabry@mich.com writes: > Note to list: Should we take this private or do you all want to see it? > Please keep it on the list. I find it very interesting. Now if I could find my Multibus 1 cards I could follow along. I think I have a 202 somewhere in there. Paxton Astoria, OR -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20011119/2155b1ed/attachment.html From pete at dunnington.u-net.com Mon Nov 19 18:35:02 2001 From: pete at dunnington.u-net.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:23:40 2005 Subject: PDP-8 case Message-ID: <10111200035.ZM15509@mindy.dunnington.u-net.com> I've been cleaning up my recently-acquired PDP-8/E, and I've had to remove the plastic foam from the inside of the lid, which was fairly horrible. I'm not sure what best to replace it with, as the foam was in two parts. The square(ish) area above the rear Omnibus section was ordinary brown high-density plastic foam, about 3/8" thick, but most of the area above the front section was black conductive foam. Is this original? Was it supposed to protect the boards that have H851 over-the-top connectors from static that might have been carried by ordinary foam? I'd have thought the leakage through the conductive foam might upset some circuits. So, should I use ordinary high-density foam, or conductive? -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager University of York From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Nov 19 18:53:42 2001 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:23:40 2005 Subject: PDP-8 case In-Reply-To: <10111200035.ZM15509@mindy.dunnington.u-net.com> from "Pete Turnbull" at Nov 20, 1 00:35:02 am Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1486 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20011120/15d8e762/attachment.ksh From greg at cosc.canterbury.ac.nz Mon Nov 19 19:09:59 2001 From: greg at cosc.canterbury.ac.nz (Greg Ewing) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:23:40 2005 Subject: PDP-8 case In-Reply-To: <10111200035.ZM15509@mindy.dunnington.u-net.com> Message-ID: <200111200109.OAA14026@s454.cosc.canterbury.ac.nz> pete@dunnington.u-net.com (Pete Turnbull): > I'd have thought the > leakage through the conductive foam might upset some circuits. I think so-called "conductive" foam actually has quite a high resistance. If that's so, it would be unlikely to upset any ordinary logic circuit. Greg Ewing, Computer Science Dept, +--------------------------------------+ University of Canterbury, | A citizen of NewZealandCorp, a | Christchurch, New Zealand | wholly-owned subsidiary of USA Inc. | greg@cosc.canterbury.ac.nz +--------------------------------------+ From edick at idcomm.com Mon Nov 19 19:35:49 2001 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:23:40 2005 Subject: PDP-8 case References: <200111200109.OAA14026@s454.cosc.canterbury.ac.nz> Message-ID: <000701c17163$af3e9620$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> ISTR something about megohms per linear inch... I doubt that will bother PDP-8 circuits much. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Greg Ewing" To: Sent: Monday, November 19, 2001 6:09 PM Subject: Re: PDP-8 case > pete@dunnington.u-net.com (Pete Turnbull): > > > I'd have thought the > > leakage through the conductive foam might upset some circuits. > > I think so-called "conductive" foam actually has quite > a high resistance. If that's so, it would be unlikely > to upset any ordinary logic circuit. > > Greg Ewing, Computer Science Dept, +--------------------------------------+ > University of Canterbury, | A citizen of NewZealandCorp, a | > Christchurch, New Zealand | wholly-owned subsidiary of USA Inc. | > greg@cosc.canterbury.ac.nz +--------------------------------------+ > > From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Mon Nov 19 20:04:33 2001 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (ajp166) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:23:40 2005 Subject: PDP-8 case Message-ID: <009d01c17169$39ca5270$71ee9a8d@ajp166> I don't remember that foam as being conductive. Most conductive foams tend to shred, those bits are not kind to the electronics. Allison -----Original Message----- From: Pete Turnbull To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers Date: Monday, November 19, 2001 7:49 PM Subject: PDP-8 case >I've been cleaning up my recently-acquired PDP-8/E, and I've had to remove >the plastic foam from the inside of the lid, which was fairly horrible. > I'm not sure what best to replace it with, as the foam was in two parts. > >The square(ish) area above the rear Omnibus section was ordinary brown >high-density plastic foam, about 3/8" thick, but most of the area above the >front section was black conductive foam. Is this original? Was it >supposed to protect the boards that have H851 over-the-top connectors from >static that might have been carried by ordinary foam? I'd have thought the >leakage through the conductive foam might upset some circuits. > >So, should I use ordinary high-density foam, or conductive? > >-- >Pete Peter Turnbull > Network Manager > University of York From gunther at aurora.regenstrief.org Mon Nov 19 20:02:26 2001 From: gunther at aurora.regenstrief.org (Gunther Schadow) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:23:40 2005 Subject: RA60 drives anywhere? And stuff... References: <000001c16e91$6f2cba00$7901100a@mdl> Message-ID: <3BF9B9B2.2020603@aurora.regenstrief.org> Hi, I'm wondering if I should get an RA60 drive some time. The idea of removeable hard drives is kind of cool, but I don't want to put up yet another machine, so this one might just fit due to its easy rack-mountable "drawer" style. What is it like, is it as heavy as the RA8x? Also, I have a huge DataProducts printer to go with the DMB32 card, this one actually has DataProducts, Centronics, and RS232 interface. Anyone have a dataproducts cable? On the VAX it looks like a big D-shaped connector with two rows of pins (actually it's female at the side of the VAX). On the printer it looks like a 3-row female D connector, like the KLESI. Which is weird. If someone has urgent need for this printer I might be convinceable to give it away sooner rather than later. Even though my wife likes it (!) and I think it's a cute fast type-machine, I think we won't have room for it. Do you know if that huge tracktor paper is still available for sale somewhere? Anyway, I'll make my announcement sometime at the end of this winter for a bunch of good big iron stuff available in Indianapolis. regards -Gunther -- Gunther Schadow, M.D., Ph.D. gschadow@regenstrief.org Medical Information Scientist Regenstrief Institute for Health Care Adjunct Assistant Professor Indiana University School of Medicine tel:1(317)630-7960 http://aurora.regenstrief.org From oliv555 at arrl.net Mon Nov 19 21:29:41 2001 From: oliv555 at arrl.net (no) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:23:40 2005 Subject: RA60 drives anywhere? And stuff... References: <000001c16e91$6f2cba00$7901100a@mdl> <3BF9B9B2.2020603@aurora.regenstrief.org> Message-ID: <3BF9CE25.1010102@arrl.net> Gunther Schadow wrote: > Hi, > > I'm wondering if I should get an RA60 drive some time. The idea > of removeable hard drives is kind of cool, but I don't want to > put up yet another machine, so this one might just fit due to its > easy rack-mountable "drawer" style. What is it like, is it as > heavy as the RA8x? > > > regards > -Gunther > > Probably heavier, though I've not used/owned an RA8x. My main gripe against the RA60 is the reliability issue. I finally replaced the ones on our 11/785 last year with a SABB array (4 x RA72s). And you can fit 2 SABB's in the space of one RA60. The RA-60 packs are cooler looking, though. Even dead ones. :>) -nick From jss at subatomix.com Tue Nov 20 00:14:22 2001 From: jss at subatomix.com (Jeffrey S. Sharp) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:23:40 2005 Subject: RA60 drives anywhere? And stuff... In-Reply-To: <3BF9B9B2.2020603@aurora.regenstrief.org> Message-ID: <20011120001351.J22748-100000@lepton.subatomix.com> On Mon, 19 Nov 2001, Gunther Schadow wrote: > Do you know if that huge tracktor paper is still available for sale > somewhere? Yes, at your local office supply. -- Jeffrey S. Sharp jss@subatomix.com From claudew at videotron.ca Mon Nov 19 20:09:46 2001 From: claudew at videotron.ca (Claude.W) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:23:40 2005 Subject: Slightly OT: Atari 2600s game collecting on "Antiques Road Show" on PBS TV Message-ID: <00b801c17168$6d936c00$0200a8c0@gamerclaude> Its not computer collecting on TV but very close... I tune in to PBS antiques road show (that TV show that goes around US and Canada towns and people bring their antiques to get them evaluated and info on them...) tonight and there was a short (2 mins?) segment on Atari 2600 cart collecting and they showed some examples of sought after carts...and some "values"...explaining this was very "hot collectibles" Do they know about computer collecting also? Claude http://www.members.tripod.com/computer_collector From mythtech at Mac.com Mon Nov 19 20:52:15 2001 From: mythtech at Mac.com (Chris) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:23:40 2005 Subject: Slightly OT: Atari 2600s game collecting on "Antiques Road Show" on PBS TV Message-ID: <200111200252.UAA13788@opal.tseinc.com> >I tune in to PBS antiques road show (that TV show that goes around US and >Canada towns and people bring their antiques to get them evaluated and info >on them...) tonight and there was a short (2 mins?) segment on Atari 2600 >cart collecting and they showed some examples of sought after carts...and >some "values"...explaining this was very "hot collectibles" And what were some of the wanted carts? Not that I will ever part with any of mine, but it is always nice to know if you have something of monitary value (although, in my case, most of it will be "I had that!", since a "friend" walked off with most of my good ones years ago... kind of like all the first series star wars action figures I blew up with firecrackers in my youth) -chris From bpope at wordstock.com Mon Nov 19 21:31:44 2001 From: bpope at wordstock.com (Bryan Pope) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:23:40 2005 Subject: Slightly OT: Atari 2600s game collecting on "Antiques Road Show" on PBS TV In-Reply-To: <200111200252.UAA13788@opal.tseinc.com> from "Chris" at Nov 19, 01 09:52:15 pm Message-ID: <200111200331.WAA04769@wordstock.com> > > And what were some of the wanted carts? Not that I will ever part with > any of mine, but it is always nice to know if you have something of > monitary value (although, in my case, most of it will be "I had that!", > since a "friend" walked off with most of my good ones years ago... kind > of like all the first series star wars action figures I blew up with > firecrackers in my youth) > Chase the Chuckwagon would be near the top of the list... If not the top. Cheers, Bryan From gehrich at tampabay.rr.com Mon Nov 19 21:35:00 2001 From: gehrich at tampabay.rr.com (Gene Ehrich) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:23:40 2005 Subject: Slightly OT: Atari 2600s game collecting on "Antiques Road Show" on PBS TV In-Reply-To: <200111200252.UAA13788@opal.tseinc.com> Message-ID: <4.3.2.7.2.20011119223417.00acd430@pop3.norton.antivirus> At 09:52 PM 11/19/01 -0500, you wrote: > >I tune in to PBS antiques road show (that TV show that goes around US and > >Canada towns and people bring their antiques to get them evaluated and info > >on them...) tonight and there was a short (2 mins?) segment on Atari 2600 > >cart collecting and they showed some examples of sought after carts...and > >some "values"...explaining this was very "hot collectibles" > >And what were some of the wanted carts? Not that I will ever part with >any of mine, but it is always nice to know if you have something of >monitary value (although, in my case, most of it will be "I had that!", >since a "friend" walked off with most of my good ones years ago... kind >of like all the first series star wars action figures I blew up with >firecrackers in my youth) I have a bunch of 2600 and 5200 cartridges for sale on my web site. --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- gene@ehrich.com gehrich@tampabay.rr.com P.O. Box 3365 Spring Hill Florida 34611-3365 http://www.voicenet.com/~generic Computer & Video Game Garage Sale From Innfogra at aol.com Mon Nov 19 21:20:08 2001 From: Innfogra at aol.com (Innfogra@aol.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:23:40 2005 Subject: Slightly OT: Atari 2600s game collecting on "Antiques Road Show" on PBS TV Message-ID: In Oregon it is on in 40 minutes, at 8:00 PM PBS. I look forward to it. Paxton Astoria, OR From rhblakeman at kih.net Mon Nov 19 23:01:27 2001 From: rhblakeman at kih.net (Russ Blakeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:23:40 2005 Subject: Slightly OT: Atari 2600s game collecting on "Antiques Road Show" on PBS TV In-Reply-To: <00b801c17168$6d936c00$0200a8c0@gamerclaude> Message-ID: They may not know but I'm sure it's soon to be a subject as the Atari is close to the advent of the home peecee and all they have to do is get a few people bringing the stuff in. Most of you already know that the machines that many of you have aren't just classics over 10 yrs old but bonafide antiques per the 20 yr rule too. -> -----Original Message----- -> From: owner-classiccmp@classiccmp.org -> [mailto:owner-classiccmp@classiccmp.org]On Behalf Of Claude.W -> Sent: Monday, November 19, 2001 8:10 PM -> To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org -> Subject: Slightly OT: Atari 2600s game collecting on "Antiques Road -> Show" on PBS TV -> -> -> Its not computer collecting on TV but very close... -> -> I tune in to PBS antiques road show (that TV show that goes around US and -> Canada towns and people bring their antiques to get them -> evaluated and info -> on them...) tonight and there was a short (2 mins?) segment on Atari 2600 -> cart collecting and they showed some examples of sought after carts...and -> some "values"...explaining this was very "hot collectibles" -> -> Do they know about computer collecting also? -> -> Claude -> http://www.members.tripod.com/computer_collector -> -> -> From Innfogra at aol.com Mon Nov 19 23:29:20 2001 From: Innfogra at aol.com (Innfogra@aol.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:23:40 2005 Subject: Qbus & Unibus cards avalable Message-ID: <147.4dfca13.292b4430@aol.com> I have the following Qbus & Unibus card that I want to offer to the list first before offering them on ebay. Please contact me off list at: whoagiii@aol.com Dilog MQ696 - This is a current 22 bit Disk Controller Qbus card. It is a 20 MHz ESDI controller for two drives. It also supports two SA450 floppy drives. It supports RX33/50s and MSCP. It is a nice looking design. M5903 Drive Transceiver M7607AP/AH MS630A 1 Meg MicroVAX II Memory - Have 2 M7946 RXV11 LSI11 RX01 Controller M7940 Serial Line Unit M7941 DRV11 16 bit Parallel Line Unit M8029 RXV21 LSI11 RX02 Controller M8186 Rev 202 D0 11/23 CPU M8958 TM78 Translator Unibus - Tape? M9202 Unibus Connector Inverted have 2 M9400 YE LSI11 Ref Boot Cable Conn Netcom NDLV-11 700 0055 MDB DRV11C Program I/O module Plessey 705113-100B Looks like a three serial port card Sandwich board set which occupies 2 sets of slots Andromeda Systems MSI11-2 2 serial port card handwritten serial numbers Have 2 Andromeda Systems MSI11 4 serial port card Rubber stamp SN 304 Codar Tech Has three batteries so I think it has clock functions. There is a 34 pin connector and a 10 pin jumper block? Digital Pathways TCU - 50 Real Time Clock card settable to normal or leap year Address-76077X Don't know its 2000 compatibility. Feel free to ask questions, preferably off list. I have pictures if needed. Paxton Astoria, OR From tothwolf at concentric.net Tue Nov 20 00:39:50 2001 From: tothwolf at concentric.net (Tothwolf) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:23:40 2005 Subject: 1771 floppy controller questions In-Reply-To: <003a01c17147$28d5c700$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> Message-ID: On Mon, 19 Nov 2001, Richard Erlacher wrote: > From: "Tothwolf" > > > I have a complete TRS-80 Model I that has a dead Western Digital FD1771-01 > > chip in its expansion interface. Does anyone know if a National 1771-B01 > > is a suitable replacement? What would be a fair/reasonable price for a new > > 1771 these days? > > You can get one for cheap if you go down to the thrift store and buy an old > TRS-80. That will cost less than a new WD1771, I'd bet. That conflicts with my ideals and goals on collecting/repairing these machines. The expansion interface for the model I also seems to be somewhat hard to find, as I haven't seen one in a thrift store in quite some time. The model 3 and 4 have a different 1771, which I seem to remember is not an exact replacement. This particular TRS-80 was given to me by its original owner some years back before he passed away. We had made plans for me to to pick up even more old stuff to go with it, but he died before that happened. -Toth From tothwolf at concentric.net Tue Nov 20 00:51:09 2001 From: tothwolf at concentric.net (Tothwolf) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:23:40 2005 Subject: 1771 floppy controller questions In-Reply-To: <001701c17172$84b88460$9865fea9@downstairs> Message-ID: On Mon, 19 Nov 2001, Michael Holley wrote: > From: "Tothwolf" > > > I have a complete TRS-80 Model I that has a dead Western Digital FD1771-01 > > chip in its expansion interface. Does anyone know if a National 1771-B01 > > is a suitable replacement? What would be a fair/reasonable price for a new > > 1771 these days? > > B. G. Micro, www.bgmicro.com, has FD1771s for $4.95. Thanks for the info. I should be able to get my local vendor to match that price since B.G. Micro is a fairly well known vendor. -Toth From jss at subatomix.com Tue Nov 20 00:40:27 2001 From: jss at subatomix.com (Jeffrey S. Sharp) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:23:40 2005 Subject: H7140 PDP 11/24 Power Supply Advice In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20011120002556.B22748-100000@lepton.subatomix.com> On Sat, 17 Nov 2001, Tony Duell wrote: > Some places have special-purpose equipment for some experiments which > is not what it claims to be. It's got all sorts of hidden extras to > make the experiments come out right. Of course if you try to apply the > knowledge gained from that experiment to some other problem you start > running into difficulties. That's how it probably starts out here, but I think it gets better with time. Most of my upper-level CS classes have been in the same building in which the ECE classes are held. Judging from the menagerie of interesting contraptions that I've seen there over the years, the ECE people do get to do stuff that's not 'set up to succeed'. Two people I know in the ECE program are currently working on some (from-scratch) robotics project. Another interesting thing: I think I might qualify for a new intensive *one-year* CS master's degree program that my university is offering. I just might go for that too. -- Jeffrey S. Sharp jss@subatomix.com From jss at subatomix.com Tue Nov 20 00:41:09 2001 From: jss at subatomix.com (Jeffrey S. Sharp) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:23:40 2005 Subject: What is a RL02K-DC? In-Reply-To: <3BF93C81.546C8923@tc.umn.edu> Message-ID: <20011120004040.G22748-100000@lepton.subatomix.com> On Mon, 19 Nov 2001, David Kuroki wrote: > I was just curious to know if they are worth anything today? Not much. > Are they still being used?? Yes, but not by many. -- Jeffrey S. Sharp jss@subatomix.com From jss at subatomix.com Tue Nov 20 01:01:31 2001 From: jss at subatomix.com (Jeffrey S. Sharp) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:23:40 2005 Subject: Interesting find Message-ID: <20011120005251.F22748-100000@lepton.subatomix.com> I'm not much of a calculator collector, but the following seems to be much more than a mere calculator. I've located an HP 9825 for $5 at a local surplus store. I think I'll go purchase it tomorrow. -- Jeffrey S. Sharp jss@subatomix.com From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Mon Nov 19 18:48:14 2001 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (Ben Franchuk) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:23:40 2005 Subject: Intel C8080A chip brings $565 on EBAY References: <20011119025154.HEKA10804.tomts19-srv.bellnexxia.net@duron> <3BF7B165.8D0DB730@jetnet.ab.ca> <3BF9C74E.DE6A9142@tiac.net> Message-ID: <3BF9A84E.550BBEF9@jetnet.ab.ca> Bob Shannon wrote: > > Because the 'new' Imsai is not an S-100 machine? I suspect it is 100% S-100 bus. Heath Kit? or Zenith? has a nice 8086 system on a S-100 bus back when people first started cloning dos. Ben Franchuk. -- Live "Pre-historic Cpu's" -- and you thought they were extinct. www.jetnet.ab.ca/users/bfranchuk/index.html From red at bears.org Tue Nov 20 01:04:00 2001 From: red at bears.org (r. 'bear' stricklin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:23:40 2005 Subject: sought: SunPC 3.1b software Message-ID: I just found a SunPC Accelerator DX in a box of junk at a recycler's. Does anybody have a copy of SunPC 3.1b so I can try to use this on my Solaris 1.1.2 box? Supposedly it was distributed on CD; a disc image or a copy of its contents would be more than sufficient. TIA ok r. From jss at subatomix.com Tue Nov 20 01:44:27 2001 From: jss at subatomix.com (Jeffrey S. Sharp) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:23:40 2005 Subject: sought: SunPC 3.1b software In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20011120014406.I22901-100000@lepton.subatomix.com> On Tue, 20 Nov 2001, r. 'bear' stricklin wrote: > I just found a SunPC Accelerator DX in a box of junk at a recycler's. Does > anybody have a copy of SunPC 3.1b so I can try to use this on my Solaris > 1.1.2 box? Supposedly it was distributed on CD; a disc image or a copy of > its contents would be more than sufficient. I may, but I need sleep now. More later. -- Jeffrey S. Sharp jss@subatomix.com From pete at dunnington.u-net.com Tue Nov 20 02:05:09 2001 From: pete at dunnington.u-net.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:23:40 2005 Subject: PDP-8 case In-Reply-To: ard@p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) "Re: PDP-8 case" (Nov 20, 0:53) References: Message-ID: <10111200805.ZM15836@mindy.dunnington.u-net.com> On Nov 20, 0:53, Tony Duell wrote: > > I've been cleaning up my recently-acquired PDP-8/E, and I've had to remove > > the plastic foam from the inside of the lid, which was fairly horrible. > > Yes, that's a very common problem... Makes a right mess on a the backplane... This hadn't reached the completely crumbly stage, but it did smell of cat :-( > I have never seen conductive foam used on PDP8/e machines. There's > nothing particularly static-sensitive in there anyway (the CPU is all > fairly large-junction bipolar chips (TTL, etc). Mine just had the normal > brown foam throughout. > > Since you can put options with top connectors anywhere in the backplane, > there would seem to be little point in having special foam over the front > slots only. > > But the leakage on conducive foam is not that high, and I doubt that > using it would cause many problems (TTL inputs are fairly low impedance). > It might have an effect if used over core memory units, but actually I > doubt it. I didn't really think it would make much difference, but I can clearly see the impression made by the connectors for the core stack, which is reputedly not working. The machine had modern semiconductor memory in it when I got it -- the 1995 board I mentioned in another post -- and I've not tried the core for myself yet. -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager University of York From pete at dunnington.u-net.com Tue Nov 20 02:09:40 2001 From: pete at dunnington.u-net.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:23:40 2005 Subject: PDP-8 case In-Reply-To: "Richard Erlacher" "Re: PDP-8 case" (Nov 19, 18:35) References: <200111200109.OAA14026@s454.cosc.canterbury.ac.nz> <000701c17163$af3e9620$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> Message-ID: <10111200809.ZM15845@mindy.dunnington.u-net.com> On Nov 19, 18:35, Richard Erlacher wrote: > From: "Greg Ewing" > > I think so-called "conductive" foam actually has quite > > a high resistance. If that's so, it would be unlikely > > to upset any ordinary logic circuit. > ISTR something about megohms per linear inch... > I doubt that will bother PDP-8 circuits much. Resistivity is normally measured "per square" (if it's linear, how wide should the strip be?) And this stuff is about 25 megohms per square, according to my measurements. So, no, I don't see how it could bother 7400 TTL. -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager University of York From pete at dunnington.u-net.com Tue Nov 20 02:19:07 2001 From: pete at dunnington.u-net.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:23:40 2005 Subject: PDP-8 case In-Reply-To: "ajp166" "Re: PDP-8 case" (Nov 19, 21:04) References: <009d01c17169$39ca5270$71ee9a8d@ajp166> Message-ID: <10111200819.ZM15851@mindy.dunnington.u-net.com> On Nov 19, 21:04, ajp166 wrote: > I don't remember that foam as being conductive. Most conductive foams > tend to shred, those bits are not kind to the electronics. Agreed :-) The brown stuff isn't much nicer after 15-30 years. I suspect someone before me had replaced foam that lost its resilience, and thought conductive foam would be better in some way. > From: Pete Turnbull > >I've been cleaning up my recently-acquired PDP-8/E, and I've had to remove > >the plastic foam from the inside of the lid, which was fairly horrible. > > I'm not sure what best to replace it with Thanmks to everyone who replied. I'll just use ordinary high-density foam. It's much cheaper than a couple of square feet of good quality conductive foam, which would be a bit thin anyway. -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager University of York From pete at dunnington.u-net.com Tue Nov 20 02:31:18 2001 From: pete at dunnington.u-net.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:23:40 2005 Subject: PDP-8 backplane -- was Re: PDP-8 case In-Reply-To: ard@p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) "Re: PDP-8 case" (Nov 20, 0:53) References: Message-ID: <10111200831.ZM15862@mindy.dunnington.u-net.com> On Nov 20, 0:53, Tony Duell wrote: > Since you can put options with top connectors anywhere in the backplane, > there would seem to be little point in having special foam over the front > slots only. That reminds me... supplementary question: The machine had gaps between some of the cards. It's over 20 years since I used a PDP-8 for real, and in those days I wasn't usually allowed at the innards. The gaps don't matter, do they? There's no grant chain like in a Unibus, AFAIR. The -8/E is an Omnibus machine, of course. -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager University of York From kevin at xpuppy.freeserve.co.uk Tue Nov 20 03:25:16 2001 From: kevin at xpuppy.freeserve.co.uk (Kevin Murrell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:23:40 2005 Subject: PDP-8 backplane -- was Re: PDP-8 case In-Reply-To: <10111200831.ZM15862@mindy.dunnington.u-net.com> Message-ID: Quite right, the gaps do not matter. The Omnibus is more of a typical computer bus than the Unibus which is more of an i/o bus. Kevin -----Original Message----- From: owner-classiccmp@classiccmp.org [mailto:owner-classiccmp@classiccmp.org]On Behalf Of Pete Turnbull Sent: 20 November 2001 08:31 To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org Subject: PDP-8 backplane -- was Re: PDP-8 case On Nov 20, 0:53, Tony Duell wrote: > Since you can put options with top connectors anywhere in the backplane, > there would seem to be little point in having special foam over the front > slots only. That reminds me... supplementary question: The machine had gaps between some of the cards. It's over 20 years since I used a PDP-8 for real, and in those days I wasn't usually allowed at the innards. The gaps don't matter, do they? There's no grant chain like in a Unibus, AFAIR. The -8/E is an Omnibus machine, of course. -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager University of York From pete at dunnington.u-net.com Tue Nov 20 02:34:49 2001 From: pete at dunnington.u-net.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:23:40 2005 Subject: Dead Intel MDS controller board In-Reply-To: Dave Mabry "Re: Dead Intel MDS controller board" (Nov 19, 20:52) References: <3BF9B769.7A7B0C21@mich.com> Message-ID: <10111200834.ZM15866@mindy.dunnington.u-net.com> On Nov 19, 20:52, Dave Mabry wrote: > I have that manual (98-422A) and that is the correct one for the > SBC-202. I think Intel just gave the 202 name to that board set when it > was bought for integration into an application. > > I am anxious to try to troubleshoot this, but I'm not sure how to go > about it. [...] > FWIW, this seems to be the exact failure mode I've seen in every one > I've had fail. > Note to list: Should we take this private or do you all want to see it? I'd say "let's see it". You might get more than onme opinion, and in any case if the fault is relatively common, there's a good chance someone else can make use of the information later. -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager University of York From edick at idcomm.com Tue Nov 20 02:41:17 2001 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:23:40 2005 Subject: 1771 floppy controller questions References: Message-ID: <002b01c1719f$1f0d7940$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> The model 3 has a 1793, which is very similar, but not identical. The 1771 has an inverting data bus, and the MFM-capable version with an inverting bus is the 1791. I do believe I saw a message that indicated that BG Micro has the WD1771 for $4.95. I doubt there's a version that wouldn't work in the Model 1. You're right, in that the model 1 expansion box is not a really common item. I've not seen one in quite a while. They've probably gone to the great beyond by now. The 1771 was quite popular, and had several second-sources, so perhaps the NS part is worth a try. In the Model 1's single-density application, almost any 1771 should work fine, though working fine doesn't really mean working reliably. What I'd suggest is that you synchronize the data from the drive with the 1771 by interposing a pair of 74HCT74's between the FD data in (after the schmidt trigger) and the 1771, clocked with the fastest harmonic of the FD clock that you can find on board. That forms a dual-rank register and synchronizes the data in a way that has a good chance of improving the system performance. You might confer with Tony Duell, as he's apparently persuaded the M1 FDC to work fairly well. An upgraded data separator was quite a popular enhancement. Dick ----- Original Message ----- From: "Tothwolf" To: Sent: Monday, November 19, 2001 11:39 PM Subject: Re: 1771 floppy controller questions > On Mon, 19 Nov 2001, Richard Erlacher wrote: > > From: "Tothwolf" > > > > > I have a complete TRS-80 Model I that has a dead Western Digital FD1771-01 > > > chip in its expansion interface. Does anyone know if a National 1771-B01 > > > is a suitable replacement? What would be a fair/reasonable price for a new > > > 1771 these days? > > > > You can get one for cheap if you go down to the thrift store and buy an old > > TRS-80. That will cost less than a new WD1771, I'd bet. > > That conflicts with my ideals and goals on collecting/repairing these > machines. The expansion interface for the model I also seems to be > somewhat hard to find, as I haven't seen one in a thrift store in quite > some time. The model 3 and 4 have a different 1771, which I seem to > remember is not an exact replacement. > > This particular TRS-80 was given to me by its original owner some years > back before he passed away. We had made plans for me to to pick up even > more old stuff to go with it, but he died before that happened. > > -Toth > > From edick at idcomm.com Tue Nov 20 02:42:12 2001 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:23:40 2005 Subject: 1771 floppy controller questions References: Message-ID: <003101c1719f$4035f020$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> What is it that makes you believe that the 1771 s the problem? Dick ----- Original Message ----- From: "Tothwolf" To: Sent: Monday, November 19, 2001 11:51 PM Subject: Re: 1771 floppy controller questions > On Mon, 19 Nov 2001, Michael Holley wrote: > > From: "Tothwolf" > > > > > I have a complete TRS-80 Model I that has a dead Western Digital FD1771-01 > > > chip in its expansion interface. Does anyone know if a National 1771-B01 > > > is a suitable replacement? What would be a fair/reasonable price for a new > > > 1771 these days? > > > > B. G. Micro, www.bgmicro.com, has FD1771s for $4.95. > > Thanks for the info. I should be able to get my local vendor to match that > price since B.G. Micro is a fairly well known vendor. > > -Toth > > From tothwolf at concentric.net Tue Nov 20 03:25:55 2001 From: tothwolf at concentric.net (Tothwolf) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:23:40 2005 Subject: 1771 floppy controller questions In-Reply-To: <003101c1719f$4035f020$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> Message-ID: On Tue, 20 Nov 2001, Richard Erlacher wrote: > From: "Tothwolf" > > On Mon, 19 Nov 2001, Michael Holley wrote: > > > From: "Tothwolf" > > > > > > > I have a complete TRS-80 Model I that has a dead Western Digital FD1771-01 > > > > chip in its expansion interface. Does anyone know if a National 1771-B01 > > > > is a suitable replacement? What would be a fair/reasonable price for a new > > > > 1771 these days? > > > > > > B. G. Micro, www.bgmicro.com, has FD1771s for $4.95. > > > > Thanks for the info. I should be able to get my local vendor to match that > > price since B.G. Micro is a fairly well known vendor. > > What is it that makes you believe that the 1771 s the problem? Well, I accidentally plugged the chip in backward when troubleshooting the floppy interface right after I got it. It turned out that the floppy ribbon was bad, just due to age I guess. I don't think the chip let out its magic smoke, but it certainly does not work now ;) -Toth From vze2mnvr at verizon.net Tue Nov 20 03:21:35 2001 From: vze2mnvr at verizon.net (Ian Koller) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:23:40 2005 Subject: HP 3000 No More (legacy) References: <00af01c16fbf$8e5b4f70$23ec9a8d@ajp166> Message-ID: <3BFA209F.8D01A193@verizon.net> ajp166 wrote: > For those CNC tools with PDP-8 or PDP11s running them What mfg. model CNC machines run on PDP's? ajp166 wrote: > > From: Dave McGuire > > >On November 17, Stan Sieler wrote: > >> PA-RISC is dead/dying ... HP has said so. IA-64 killed it. > > > > [knee-jerk reaction to a pet peeve follows] > > > > Well, as long as "dead" can be defined as "salespeople don't want to > >sell you a new one". For me, it can't. I can pick up the phone and > >buy PDP8 equipment from a commercial vendor. How long ago was THAT > >architecture discontinued? > > > > For me, something is "dead" (or "obsolete" or whatever you want to > >call it) when it can no longer do its job adequately and > > Dead to me is broken. Obsolete is when it cant forfill the intesded task > or when it has reached a level of repair difficulty where replacement is > an option. For those CNC tools with PDP-8 or PDP11s running them > that number is still over $50,000 to upgrade and 100s of thousands of > dollars to replace. In the face of that the PDP-8 that still makes good > flanges is cheap at $2000 for a working cold spare. > > For example I was given three working 386(mono) and 486(color) laptops > as too weak to be useful. Fully working machines with Xircom network > adaptors and all! > > Allison From vze2mnvr at verizon.net Tue Nov 20 03:38:00 2001 From: vze2mnvr at verizon.net (Ian Koller) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:23:40 2005 Subject: Intel C8080A chip brings $565 on EBAY References: <001101c1709d$7564c800$0100a8c0@sys1> Message-ID: <3BFA2478.96679AB8@verizon.net> John, You're all right. I respect your interest and your approach. If I ever run across a chip you're looking for, it would be my pleasure to see it go to you. Ian From tothwolf at concentric.net Tue Nov 20 03:46:58 2001 From: tothwolf at concentric.net (Tothwolf) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:23:40 2005 Subject: 1771 floppy controller questions In-Reply-To: <002b01c1719f$1f0d7940$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> Message-ID: On Tue, 20 Nov 2001, Richard Erlacher wrote: > From: "Tothwolf" > > On Mon, 19 Nov 2001, Richard Erlacher wrote: > > > > > You can get one for cheap if you go down to the thrift store and buy an old > > > TRS-80. That will cost less than a new WD1771, I'd bet. > > > > That conflicts with my ideals and goals on collecting/repairing these > > machines. The expansion interface for the model I also seems to be > > somewhat hard to find, as I haven't seen one in a thrift store in quite > > some time. The model 3 and 4 have a different 1771, which I seem to > > remember is not an exact replacement. > > The model 3 has a 1793, which is very similar, but not identical. > The 1771 has an inverting data bus, and the MFM-capable version with > an inverting bus is the 1791. I do believe I saw a message that > indicated that BG Micro has the WD1771 for $4.95. I doubt there's a > version that wouldn't work in the Model 1. I figured the model 3 used the same controller as the model 1, but it makes sense that they changed that part of the design. I own both a model 3 and 4, neither of which currently work. Any ideas on where a service manual can be found for either of these? I also have a model 2 that worked the last time I pulled it out, tho I'd like to find a manual for it too, since I imagine I will have to service it at some point in the future. > You're right, in that the model 1 expansion box is not a really common > item. I've not seen one in quite a while. They've probably gone to > the great beyond by now. Kinda sad too, I used to see this kind of gear in the resale shops all the time. Over the last 4-5 years, very little of it seems to be showing up in the places I used to see it in. > The 1771 was quite popular, and had several second-sources, so perhaps > the NS part is worth a try. In the Model 1's single-density > application, almost any 1771 should work fine, though working fine > doesn't really mean working reliably. I've heard a few stories about reliability problems with the expansion interface's floppy controller. I sure hope not all of them were true ;P > What I'd suggest is that you synchronize the data from the drive with > the 1771 by interposing a pair of 74HCT74's between the FD data in > (after the schmidt trigger) and the 1771, clocked with the fastest > harmonic of the FD clock that you can find on board. That forms a > dual-rank register and synchronizes the data in a way that has a good > chance of improving the system performance. You might confer with Tony > Duell, as he's apparently persuaded the M1 FDC to work fairly well. > An upgraded data separator was quite a popular enhancement. The original owner of this model I did add an external data separator board between the expansion interface board and the 1771. Would that board have provided a similar circuit? -Toth From Joanne.Renardson at grangewintringham.com Tue Nov 20 03:46:53 2001 From: Joanne.Renardson at grangewintringham.com (Joanne Renardson) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:23:40 2005 Subject: OT: paging MAC expert(s) --- What's a Performa? Message-ID: This came to me in error. Regards, Jo. -----Original Message----- From: Richard Erlacher [mailto:edick@idcomm.com] Sent: 20 November 2001 01:08 To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org Subject: Re: OT: paging MAC expert(s) --- What's a Performa? If you're meaning operating on the tape contents, you're talking about weeks to months. The bits of a file are scattered around the disk, since it's random access, albeit in "clusters" or whatever you choose to call them, and in blocks, as the data buffer stores them, but unless you KNOW where the directory is in the bitwise image of the disk, and unless you know where all the pieces of the drive are to be found in the tape image, I'd submit it would be a mite tedious. The problem, of course, with image backup, is that the bits have to be extracted from the drive at the raw data level, i.e. with controller commands you normally don't deal with, and they can't be faithfully restored to a drive that's not physically identical to the one you started with, i.e. same number of heads, cylinders, sectors, etc, PHYSICALLY, else things fall apart, since we don't know how the drive firmware deals with translating from the block-level commands the OS may choose to send it, though it doesn't have to, to the buffers-full of data that the drive coughs up. Remember, when you restart the system, it has no OS other than what you can load from a floppy. IF that's the same, which certainly isn't the case under WIndows, as what you used to do the backup, then you're able, potentially, to deal with the data to be transferred to the newly cleaned drive in the same way that this particular OS deals with it. Of course, the OS doesn't know what you're doing, and doesn't know how to read the data on the disk, except as raw data, dealt with in buffer-fulls, and than only using the code you've written. Dick ----- Original Message ----- From: "Christopher Smith" To: Sent: Monday, November 19, 2001 4:00 PM Subject: RE: OT: paging MAC expert(s) --- What's a Performa? > > -----Original Message----- > > From: Richard Erlacher [mailto:edick@idcomm.com] > > > If your recorded "backup" is a bit-for-bit image of the disk contents, > > transferred to and from tape, there's no interpretation of > > the contents into > > files that can take place, is there? > > That's an interesting way to phrase this particular question, since the > contents are already in the form of "files" -- that is, if you ask the set > of drivers that got them to the disk in the first place. :) > > I believe it's possible (though it would be slow) to interpret a bit-for-bit > image directly on a tape and extract any given file, along with attributes, > etc. In fact, any operation that would be possible on a disk, in this case, > could be handled on a tape. The clincher is that it would involve a lot of > seek/rewind/seek/etc/etc.. > > The underlying O/S need not even know the difference between the disk and > tape, except to know that the tape is removable (...that's not absolutely > required), and perhaps that it's incredibly slow. > > The worst that would be required is a device abstraction layer or the like. > You could write one yourself which would make the tape device "look" like a > disk device, for systems which don't have such a thing, and that would be > enough. > > How would you like to be able to mount your backup tape, and use a > file-manager on it? ;) > > > The Microsoft Backup that came with DOS, (a) never really was > > a backup, but, > > rather, was just a copy, and (b) never worked together with > > its "restore" > > function. Under DOS, copies were adequate, since the context > > didn't matter. > > If you mean that it didn't store attributes, or that sort of thing, you may > be right (never paid attention.) On the other hand, you're also right to > say that it wouldn't particularly matter under MS-DOS. > > Regards, > > Chris > > > Christopher Smith, Perl Developer > Amdocs - Champaign, IL > > /usr/bin/perl -e ' > print((~"\x95\xc4\xe3"^"Just Another Perl Hacker.")."\x08!\n"); > ' > > > From vze2mnvr at verizon.net Tue Nov 20 03:55:20 2001 From: vze2mnvr at verizon.net (Ian Koller) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:23:40 2005 Subject: Intel C8080A chip brings $565 on EBAY References: <003401c170ff$841dc740$6b7b7b7b@ajp> Message-ID: <3BFA2888.3A114C25@verizon.net> Allison, You collect Single Board Computers? Ian Allison wrote: > > From: John Galt > > >There's a rather small community of chip collectors. > > > >However, there are a few collectors who have been > >collecting for over 10 years now who have put togather > >pretty vast collections of literally thousands of chips. > > My only concern is they may be collecting junk, IE: chips that > look good, may be rare but are DEAD/useless electronically. > > >It would be the same as if suddenly someone found > >two Intelec bit slice 3002 computers dated 1975 in a closet or something. > >Sure, there might could be more, but if they were common, you guys would > >have already seen one. > > These were quite common and the basic chipset on an experimentors board > was around $495 in 1977. Most were used then relagated to the engineering > junk box. So I'd presume when you say rare, your referring to actively > traded > survivors as SBC colltors like me may already have one (not yet!). > > >As far as the color, chip collectors refer to that color > >chip as "purple". If you look at it next to a normal > >"gray" CerDIP, you can see the difference. Besides, > >it would not have mattered had it been black. The fact > >is, it's not the white/gold color of a normal Intel > >C8080A. The printing on the chip is also somewhat different. My guess is > >it's a late run C8080A that was > > It's very late run ceramic. Ceramic for chip substrates only comes from a > few > vendors one being a beer maker in the rockies a few in the far east and > Europe. > It was part of the reason why ceramic parts were more expensive and also > a near must if the part was required to pass tests for hermetic sealing > (military, > space or other high stress apps). > > Ceramic aging/dating: > > Starting with the 1960s ceramic was white. > > early White > > examples were > early military Flatpacks(RTL/DTL/TTL) > 1101, 1103 ram > 1702 eprom > > first brown parts I'd seen were 2708s > > brown (light) > later dark brown > Gray > Gray with brownish cast > Gray with purplish cast > > Those were the most common. Eproms were generaltionally in the common > ceramic of the time. > > Allison From vze2mnvr at verizon.net Tue Nov 20 03:58:14 2001 From: vze2mnvr at verizon.net (Ian Koller) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:23:40 2005 Subject: Intel C8080A chip brings $565 on EBAY References: <5.0.0.25.0.20011119083154.0240e1a8@pc> Message-ID: <3BFA2936.F0D67EC7@verizon.net> > I can't believe that any nerd on this mailing list would > denigrate a chip collector. Sorta "like the pot calling the kettle black" as Grandma would say. John Foust wrote: > > At 09:17 PM 11/18/2001 -0500, you wrote: > >Better yet, give me all those old "worthless" purple C8080A's you have > >laying around. I'll give you > >$1 ea. for them so you won't feel like you're taking advantage of an > >"idiot". > > No, these complainers about the free market's prices > are just sad that their warehouse is full of junk that > doesn't fetch high prices. > > I can't believe that any nerd on this mailing list would > denigrate a chip collector. It's like the original Swiftian > little-endian versus big-endian argument. But then again, > maybe I think this way only because if I'm going to junk > a piece of unusable computer equipment, or if I discover > an unrecoverable wreck, I'll always yank the interesting chips. > > On the other hand, wearing a name tag that says "John Galt" > in a room full of techies is an unpardonably cheesy offense. > > - John From vze2mnvr at verizon.net Tue Nov 20 04:29:16 2001 From: vze2mnvr at verizon.net (Ian Koller) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:23:40 2005 Subject: OT: paging MAC expert(s) --- What's a Performa? References: Message-ID: <3BFA307C.7E86EA7A@verizon.net> gwynp@artware.qc.ca wrote: > What's the use of a Mac of that vintage (ie, old and slow but not > classic)? I have a Centris 660av that I use for testing web pages on > older macintosh versions of Netscape and MSIE. Of course, finding a 68k > version of MSIE is something of a challenge. Macs saw a lot of lab use. There were some special interfaces and software ( LabVIEW ) for them. They can be used to control experiments and equipment. So if you have NuBus interface cards, an old mac is just what is needed. gwynp@artware.qc.ca wrote: > > On 17-Nov-2001 Richard Erlacher wrote: > > I've downloaded TattleTech, but where, now, do I find the Stuffit > > Expander? > > You're best bet is to buy a Mac Addict or other magazine that has a CD-ROM > (you do have a CD drive?). Older Macs don't "boot-strap" very well. Yes, > you can get a SEA (self-extracting archive) of Stuffit, but it won't do > you much good. Mac OS has 2 forks per file. One for data, the other > for code. When you download a file or when you copy a file from a PC > formated disk everything goes into the data fork. Doing something > equivalent to "chmod +x file.sea" is impossible on Mac OS without an > external program, like say Stuffit. *sigh* If you are lucky, you'll have > a recent version of Mac OS which includes Stuffit. > > I find this to be one of the most incredible "features" of Mac OS. Apart > from that, as long as you have a real computer nearby, using a Mac isn't > that bad. > > What's the use of a Mac of that vintage (ie, old and slow but not > classic)? I have a Centris 660av that I use for testing web pages on > older macintosh versions of Netscape and MSIE. Of course, finding a 68k > version of MSIE is something of a challenge. > > -Philip From vze2mnvr at verizon.net Tue Nov 20 04:44:53 2001 From: vze2mnvr at verizon.net (Ian Koller) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:23:41 2005 Subject: OT: paging MAC expert(s) --- What's a Performa? References: <200111181919.NAA82668@opal.tseinc.com> Message-ID: <3BFA3425.3CE06CD5@verizon.net> What's the fastest NuBus modem was ever made? Chris wrote: > > >They both have Claris Works loaded, but since > >there's no CD and no doc, I have to say it's got to be flushed. > > NO NO NO NO... Claris Works shipped with EVERY performa... but since it > was an Apple product, it was tied into that damn Backup program, and no > install disks were supplied. (There should be a simple manual, but the > previous owners may have lost it). Don't flush it, it is legal (and > again, I can supply you with a replacement copy if need be, it came with > Claris Works version 2.1) > > >One has a Stylewriter II and the other has a Color > >Stylewriter 2400, not that I know what the differences are. > > The 2400 is the better of the two. Check Apple's web site for specs. The > goofy catch with the 2400 is, it has no direct printer driver, you need > to use the driver for the 2500 (go figure) > > > They have > >essentially useless (2400 Baud) GV Teleport Bronze modems, which I guess I'll > >upgrade in order to make the system useful for internet browsing > > If you are dumping the GV Bronze modems, I would be interested in > aquiring them from you. They are FANTASTIC fax modems, so I use them on > old Mac SE's as fax stations. > > >I'm still in the throes of figuring out how, exactly to equip these things > >with > >"legal" software > > Accordng to Apple, the 630CD comes with a Restore CD. Run that, and you > will get all the shipped "legal" software the machine came with. > > The 630CD shipped with the following software: > > Performa 630CD - M3424LL/A Includes ClarisWorks 2.1, American > > Heritage Dictionary 3rd Edition, > Quicken > 4, MacLink Translators, Mac Gallery > Clip > Art, Click Art Performa Collection, > KidWorks 2, Thinkin' Things, The > Writing > Center, Spectre Challenger, Spin > Doctor > Lite, TelePort Fax Send, At Ease > 2.0, PC > Exchange, and eWorld. > > It also orginally shipped with System 7.1, but 7.5.5 is now free off > Apple's web site, so you can upgrade to it without legal fear. > > If you don't have the restore CD, let me know, I can look and see if I > have one. > > -chris > > From vze2mnvr at verizon.net Tue Nov 20 04:50:10 2001 From: vze2mnvr at verizon.net (Ian Koller) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:23:41 2005 Subject: OT: paging MAC expert(s) --- What's a Performa? References: <3B55D7F383B0D31197D9009027541CBF1170DE98@cmiexch1.cmi.itds.com> <000f01c17126$bed4d640$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> Message-ID: <3BFA3562.9C18C21E@verizon.net> > I don't know what a guy's to do. I guess image-copying the disk > to tape, empty space and all, is the only solution. The best device to back up a hard drive to is ... another hard drive. Fastest speed transfers. And as inexpensive as hard drives are these days, why not? In DOS, and even Win9x ... xcopy Richard Erlacher wrote: > > I'm concerned mainly about Win9x. There were numerous backup packages that > worked VERY well under [DOS6.22/Win3.11]. Since the release of Win9x, I've > bought several backup packages, and a couple of releases of each, yet not seen > one that even barely worked on any sort of consistent basis. The early backup > program from ADAPTEC, part of their EasySCSI 4.xx package, didn't even support > SCSI devices, and freely admitted it. Microsoft's backup utility for Windows95 > didn't support SCSI devices either. Seagate Backup Exec supported SCSI-1 and > SCSI-2 devices, though it didn't work terribly well because it opened files that > subsequently required human intervention in order to complete the backup. > Moreover, if permission was given to back up those files, it would fall down > during verify, since it, itself, had modified those files. Novaback for > Windows95 failed on 148 of the 151 units one of my clients has, failing in all > those cases, to complete the backup. I've never managed to get Novaback to > finish a restore either. Cheyenne backup was a miserable flop, failing to read > its own writing from time to time. I could go on ... > > There's something about the OS that interferes with a backup. The Microsoft > Backup for Win98 seems to work ...sorta... but it only works ...sorta... and > falls down many times, misinterpreting a drive that the OS recognizes correctly > to be a 2GB partition to be 300+ Terabytes. Naturally it falls down later > because of that problem. > > An OS without a real backup utility is of little use because you have to have > backup ... not just copies of things, but a real backup, context and all, that > enables you to get back to where you were. DOS didn't have that, UNIX doesn't > have it (though it does have TAR, which makes copies to tape), OS/2 doesn't have > it, LINUX doesn't have it ... I don't know what a guy's to do. I guess > image-copying the disk to tape, empty space and all, is the only solution. Of > course that means the files are replaceable only on an all or nothing basis. > ^%$#@! ... what a bunch of crap! > > Dick > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Christopher Smith" > To: > Sent: Monday, November 19, 2001 10:22 AM > Subject: RE: OT: paging MAC expert(s) --- What's a Performa? > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > From: Richard Erlacher [mailto:edick@idcomm.com] > > > > > the Intel CPU as well as the 'LC040, was 3.11/6.22. I was > > > working more from the > > > experience with Windows that I'd had more recently. My > > > latest Windows, BTW, is > > > '98SE, and, until they fix some of the very fundamental problems, like > > > non-working OS utilities, e.g. Backup, I'm not getting any > > > more M$ OS products. > > > I'm told it may be a long wait, BTW. > > > > Has microsoft _ever_ had a working backup utility? OK, maybe xenix had a > > working version of tar or cpio (I doubt it had both), but that's it. > > However, since I'm supposed to "leave my anti-ms baggage at the door," > > according to the faq, don't get me started ;) > > > > > This practice of theirs, of buying a non-functional cast-off from some > > > financially-troubled software company and then integrating it > > > into their OS is, > > > in fact, an example of their "monopolistic practices" since > > > > Just ask yourself why most of these companies are troubled in the first > > place... > > > > > they've no intention > > > of supporting the product as an intrinsic function of their > > > OS, though that's > > > what they claim, as in the case of Internet Explorer, it is. > > > Since you can't go > > > to anyone else for a competing OS product, I guess they > > > figure you're screwed, > > > which is how I see it. > > > > Well, my most recent exposure is to windows 2000, which, admittedly, is > > nearly as stable as NT 3.x was (4 was a joke). I only use it at work, and > > only because they give me no choice. At home, I have plenty of other > > options that do whatever I tell them to... ;) > > > > Regards, > > > > Chris > > > > Christopher Smith, Perl Developer > > Amdocs - Champaign, IL > > > > /usr/bin/perl -e ' > > print((~"\x95\xc4\xe3"^"Just Another Perl Hacker.")."\x08!\n"); > > ' > > > > From vze2mnvr at verizon.net Tue Nov 20 04:59:45 2001 From: vze2mnvr at verizon.net (Ian Koller) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:23:41 2005 Subject: OT: paging MAC expert(s) --- What's a Performa? References: <3B55D7F383B0D31197D9009027541CBF1170DE98@cmiexch1.cmi.itds.com> <000f01c17126$bed4d640$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> <3BF94534.64957004@jetnet.ab.ca> <5.0.0.25.0.20011119165437.022272e8@pc> Message-ID: <3BFA37A1.1A13AA3D@verizon.net> Make sure the machine has a SCSI controller in it, and put the "back-up" hard drive in an external SCSI enclosure. Or use pull out's, SCSI or IDE. John Foust wrote: > > At 03:05 PM 11/19/2001 -0700, you wrote: > >My experience has been that folks who have a backup device, capable of doing a > >full scheduled (automatic, without human intervention) system backup of > >everything accessible to the system on a single element of the medium the device > >uses, always seem to have good backup. > > These days on today's PCs, it's easier to buy a spare > hard disk, and copy (using 'at', the scheduler, TaskZip, > whatever) your vital files to it. Take a tape backup > off-site as frequently as you like, or just carry the > spare hard disk. > > - John From simul8 at simul8.demon.co.uk Tue Nov 20 04:37:30 2001 From: simul8 at simul8.demon.co.uk (James Lothian) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:23:41 2005 Subject: RA60 drives anywhere? And stuff... References: <000001c16e91$6f2cba00$7901100a@mdl> <3BF9B9B2.2020603@aurora.regenstrief.org> Message-ID: <3BFA326A.F6E3FD67@simul8.demon.co.uk> Gunther Schadow wrote: > > Hi, > > I'm wondering if I should get an RA60 drive some time. The idea > of removeable hard drives is kind of cool, but I don't want to > put up yet another machine, so this one might just fit due to its > easy rack-mountable "drawer" style. What is it like, is it as > heavy as the RA8x? > A good bit heavier, in fact -- about 160lbs, I seem to remember. It's also deeper front-to-back, and needs a modified rack. James From Antonio.Carlini at riverstonenet.com Tue Nov 20 04:51:42 2001 From: Antonio.Carlini at riverstonenet.com (Carlini, Antonio) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:23:41 2005 Subject: SCB68430 DMA controller data sheets etc. Message-ID: <3820E2042B6ED5118DC200D0B78EDC47066233@exc-reo1> > >It's available on http:\\www.freetradezone.com . There are > two versions > >of the sheet, D0194930.pdf is the 1988 version, D0191623.pdf is the > >earlier 1996 version. > > Thanks! I was able to find it and a lot of other stuff too. I've just had an email from them indicating that they are about to start charging for *some* of their service. It's not clear whether you will soon have to pay to get access to datasheets for out-of-production parts. Antonio arcarlini@iee.org From mark_k at totalise.co.uk Tue Nov 20 05:35:04 2001 From: mark_k at totalise.co.uk (Mark Knibbs) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:23:41 2005 Subject: FreeTradeZone site moving to subscription-only for older parts Message-ID: <3C8FADE5@mail.totalise.co.uk> Hi, Some of you have probably used the PartMiner/FreeTradeZone web site at http://www.freetradezone.com/ to download datasheets for older, discontinued chips. This has been very useful to me. For discontinued products (which I guess is what most of us are interested in), they are moving to a subscription-only system. Subscription cost is a whopping US$299 per month (introductory; the normal cost is supposedly US$375), so future access will only be viable for most people if you need it for your job. I don't know when the change is being made, or if it has happened already. If it hasn't, better download datasheets that you need while you still can. -- Mark From dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com Tue Nov 20 06:26:23 2001 From: dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com (Douglas Quebbeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:23:41 2005 Subject: OT: paging MAC expert(s) --- What's a Performa? Message-ID: <7A9BACCEF0171D4FB77019F5104CDD3722593C@jeffserver.tegjeff.com> > WDEF could do this, but it was rendered dead by System 7 (it infected the > System 6 and earlier desktop database, so when a disk was inserted, it > could spread to any uninfected desktop databases) This caused me much grief, as I had a customized WDEF routine I'd edit into every System file; it was Andy's source, modified to do the Lisa-styled titlebar and widgets. But anti-virus software of the day gave false positives for my WDEF. -dq From jpl15 at panix.com Tue Nov 20 05:58:31 2001 From: jpl15 at panix.com (John Lawson) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:23:41 2005 Subject: Radio Shack abandons components Message-ID: I have seen several posts on other fora bemoaning the fact that our beloved Radio Shack is rapidly phasing out it's sales of carded components, resistors, caps, diodes, etc. I imagine this to be the case... and another blow to Enginerds and parts-level hobbyists not lucky enough to be near a Fry's or other still-functioning small-quantity parts outlet. Experimenters: Time to stock up! Cheers John From dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com Tue Nov 20 06:29:03 2001 From: dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com (Douglas Quebbeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:23:41 2005 Subject: Radio Shack abandons components Message-ID: <7A9BACCEF0171D4FB77019F5104CDD3722593D@jeffserver.tegjeff.com> > Experimenters: Time to stock up! Nah... Long Live Jameco & Digi-Key! -dq From cmurillo at emtelsa.multi.net.co Tue Nov 20 06:51:16 2001 From: cmurillo at emtelsa.multi.net.co (Carlos Murillo) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:23:41 2005 Subject: OT: paging MAC expert(s) --- What's a Performa? In-Reply-To: <200111200222.PAA14062@s454.cosc.canterbury.ac.nz> References: <002d01c17160$e3077380$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> Message-ID: <3.0.2.32.20011120075116.01d5ea14@obregon.multi.net.co> At 03:22 PM 11/20/01 +1300, Greg wrote: \>I can't think of a way for a virus to jump onto a disk on a Mac simply >by the disk being there, without any virus-infected program >running. Unless a virus has attacked the Finder or the OS itself, >which is a possibility, I suppose. > >But even then, the virus can't jump *off* the disk onto a previously >clean system without running something from the disk, and that won't >happen unless you explicitly tell it to. If there's some way for that >to happen on Windows, then Windows is definitely more virus-friendly! Weren't there some mac viruses that would attach to the resource fork of a volume/file and then simply by opening the folder to browse it the virus code would run? carlos. -------------------------------------------------------------- Carlos E. Murillo-Sanchez carlos_murillo@nospammers.ieee.org From guerney at bigpond.com Tue Nov 20 06:25:58 2001 From: guerney at bigpond.com (Phil) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:23:41 2005 Subject: Interesting find References: <20011120005251.F22748-100000@lepton.subatomix.com> Message-ID: <001d01c171be$82d4e5c0$7937fea9@Guerney> Jeffrey, ....only in America. I've been on the lookout for any of the 98XX series HP desktop "calculators" (most definitely computers), but here "down-under", no such luck. I think it would be uneconomical to freight one from the USA though :( Cheers Phil Brisbane, Australia ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jeffrey S. Sharp" To: Sent: Tuesday, November 20, 2001 5:01 PM Subject: Interesting find > I'm not much of a calculator collector, but the following seems to be much > more than a mere calculator. I've located an HP 9825 for $5 at a local > surplus store. I think I'll go purchase it tomorrow. > > -- > Jeffrey S. Sharp > jss@subatomix.com > From jfoust at threedee.com Tue Nov 20 07:09:48 2001 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:23:41 2005 Subject: OT: paging MAC expert(s) --- What's a Performa? In-Reply-To: <002d01c17160$e3077380$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> References: <3B55D7F383B0D31197D9009027541CBF1170DE98@cmiexch1.cmi.itds.com> <000f01c17126$bed4d640$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> <3BF94534.64957004@jetnet.ab.ca> <5.0.0.25.0.20011119165437.022272e8@pc> Message-ID: <5.0.0.25.0.20011120070908.022272e8@pc> At 06:15 PM 11/19/2001 -0700, Richard Erlacher wrote: > Viruses can't deal directly with the tape, just >as the OS can't deal directly with the tape. A virus that gets onto a tape >won't be an executable, hence probably won't go there except in the form of >already-corrupted files. That's it. I'm going over to sit with Sellam. - John From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Tue Nov 20 07:28:12 2001 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (Allison) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:23:41 2005 Subject: PDP-8 backplane -- was Re: PDP-8 case Message-ID: <002a01c171c7$356c38c0$6b7b7b7b@ajp> Omnibus dones not have a unibus/qbus grant chain. the general organisation is anywhere it fits generally works save for cards that have over the top connections. Allison -----Original Message----- From: Pete Turnbull To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org Date: Tuesday, November 20, 2001 3:52 AM Subject: PDP-8 backplane -- was Re: PDP-8 case >On Nov 20, 0:53, Tony Duell wrote: >> Since you can put options with top connectors anywhere in the backplane, >> there would seem to be little point in having special foam over the front >> slots only. > >That reminds me... supplementary question: The machine had gaps between >some of the cards. It's over 20 years since I used a PDP-8 for real, and >in those days I wasn't usually allowed at the innards. The gaps don't >matter, do they? There's no grant chain like in a Unibus, AFAIR. The >-8/E is an Omnibus machine, of course. > >-- >Pete Peter Turnbull > Network Manager > University of York > From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Tue Nov 20 07:32:33 2001 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (Allison) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:23:41 2005 Subject: HP 3000 No More (legacy) Message-ID: <003701c171c7$d0a9bce0$6b7b7b7b@ajp> Noteably the Bridgeport company consumed some 100,000 LSI-11 card sets for their NC systems. Later I think Falcon(T11) cards were also used and I've seena fair number of PDP-8s mated to the larger vertical mills. Thats not even close to exhaustive list. Other cpus (HP, Cincinatti Millichron, Z80 based, 6800 and 6502 as well). Allison -----Original Message----- From: Ian Koller To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org Date: Tuesday, November 20, 2001 4:46 AM Subject: Re: HP 3000 No More (legacy) > > >ajp166 wrote: >> For those CNC tools with PDP-8 or PDP11s running them > >What mfg. model CNC machines run on PDP's? > > > >ajp166 wrote: >> >> From: Dave McGuire >> >> >On November 17, Stan Sieler wrote: >> >> PA-RISC is dead/dying ... HP has said so. IA-64 killed it. >> > >> > [knee-jerk reaction to a pet peeve follows] >> > >> > Well, as long as "dead" can be defined as "salespeople don't want to >> >sell you a new one". For me, it can't. I can pick up the phone and >> >buy PDP8 equipment from a commercial vendor. How long ago was THAT >> >architecture discontinued? >> > >> > For me, something is "dead" (or "obsolete" or whatever you want to >> >call it) when it can no longer do its job adequately and >> >> Dead to me is broken. Obsolete is when it cant forfill the intesded task >> or when it has reached a level of repair difficulty where replacement is >> an option. For those CNC tools with PDP-8 or PDP11s running them >> that number is still over $50,000 to upgrade and 100s of thousands of >> dollars to replace. In the face of that the PDP-8 that still makes good >> flanges is cheap at $2000 for a working cold spare. >> >> For example I was given three working 386(mono) and 486(color) laptops >> as too weak to be useful. Fully working machines with Xircom network >> adaptors and all! >> >> Allison > From rcini at optonline.net Tue Nov 20 07:48:06 2001 From: rcini at optonline.net (Richard A. Cini, Jr.) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:23:41 2005 Subject: OT: List features - table of contents? Message-ID: While scanning the digest this morning (I'm on vacation) I remembered back to a long time ago when the list digest had a table of contents of the messages at the top of the digest. Is this a subscription option or a feature of the list manager software that we can have back? Oh, Sam...email me. I have that DayGlo yellow 8080 you were looking for. Only one made you know :-) Rich Rich Cini Collector of classic computers Build Master for the Altair32 Emulation Project Web site: http://highgate.comm.sfu.ca/~rcini/classiccmp/ /************************************************************/ From jrice at texoma.net Tue Nov 20 07:57:24 2001 From: jrice at texoma.net (James L. Rice) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:23:41 2005 Subject: Radio Shack abandons components References: Message-ID: <3BFA6144.2080309@texoma.net> I guess I'm lucky, living in Dallas. We have two Fry's, Altex Electronics, Allied Electronics, Mouser Electronics, Tanner's (a small family owned component and surplus store, one of the best stocks of components I've ever seen) and BG Micro, all witin a 30 minute driving range. i've never thought about having to mail order even the most basic parts until my friend moved to a small town in Oklahoma, just south of the Kansas border. He tells me that unless it can be found at Rat Shack or Wal-Mart, he SOL.. James http://home.texoma.net/~jrice John Lawson wrote: > > I have seen several posts on other fora bemoaning the fact that our >beloved Radio Shack is rapidly phasing out it's sales of carded >components, resistors, caps, diodes, etc. > > I imagine this to be the case... and another blow to Enginerds and >parts-level hobbyists not lucky enough to be near a Fry's or other >still-functioning small-quantity parts outlet. > > > Experimenters: Time to stock up! > > > > Cheers > >John > > >. > From jrice at texoma.net Tue Nov 20 08:10:48 2001 From: jrice at texoma.net (James L. Rice) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:23:41 2005 Subject: Radio Shack abandons components References: <3BFA6144.2080309@texoma.net> Message-ID: <3BFA6468.90507@texoma.net> Sorry for the typos. I broke a couple of fingers this week. Hard to type with fingers taped together James L. Rice wrote: > I guess I'm lucky, living in Dallas. We have two Fry's, Altex > Electronics, Allied Electronics, Mouser Electronics, Tanner's (a small > family owned component and surplus store, one of the best stocks of > components I've ever seen) and BG Micro, all witin a 30 minute driving > range. i've never thought about having to mail order even the most > basic parts until my friend moved to a small town in Oklahoma, just > south of the Kansas border. He tells me that unless it can be found > at Rat Shack or Wal-Mart, he SOL.. > > James > > http://home.texoma.net/~jrice From angela at holybears.com Tue Nov 20 08:18:46 2001 From: angela at holybears.com (Angela Carroll) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:23:41 2005 Subject: Eltron 16VAC adapters Message-ID: I would like to get one or more of those adapters if you have any left. From edick at idcomm.com Tue Nov 20 09:02:54 2001 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:23:41 2005 Subject: OT: paging MAC expert(s) --- What's a Performa? Message-ID: <001101c171d4$6f0e5420$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> This was misrouted and returned to me, I know not why or where ... Let's try again ... Dick > -----Original Message----- > From: Richard Erlacher [mailto:edick@idcomm.com] > Sent: 20 November 2001 01:08 > To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org > Subject: Re: OT: paging MAC expert(s) --- What's a Performa? > > > If you're meaning operating on the tape contents, you're talking about weeks > to > months. The bits of a file are scattered around the disk, since it's random > access, albeit in "clusters" or whatever you choose to call them, and in > blocks, > as the data buffer stores them, but unless you KNOW where the directory is > in > the bitwise image of the disk, and unless you know where all the pieces of > the > drive are to be found in the tape image, I'd submit it would be a mite > tedious. > The problem, of course, with image backup, is that the bits have to be > extracted > from the drive at the raw data level, i.e. with controller commands you > normally > don't deal with, and they can't be faithfully restored to a drive that's not > physically identical to the one you started with, i.e. same number of heads, > cylinders, sectors, etc, PHYSICALLY, else things fall apart, since we don't > know > how the drive firmware deals with translating from the block-level commands > the > OS may choose to send it, though it doesn't have to, to the buffers-full of > data > that the drive coughs up. > > Remember, when you restart the system, it has no OS other than what you can > load > from a floppy. IF that's the same, which certainly isn't the case under > WIndows, as what you used to do the backup, then you're able, potentially, > to > deal with the data to be transferred to the newly cleaned drive in the same > way > that this particular OS deals with it. Of course, the OS doesn't know what > you're doing, and doesn't know how to read the data on the disk, except as > raw > data, dealt with in buffer-fulls, and than only using the code you've > written. > > Dick > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Christopher Smith" > To: > Sent: Monday, November 19, 2001 4:00 PM > Subject: RE: OT: paging MAC expert(s) --- What's a Performa? > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > From: Richard Erlacher [mailto:edick@idcomm.com] > > > > > If your recorded "backup" is a bit-for-bit image of the disk contents, > > > transferred to and from tape, there's no interpretation of > > > the contents into > > > files that can take place, is there? > > > > That's an interesting way to phrase this particular question, since the > > contents are already in the form of "files" -- that is, if you ask the set > > of drivers that got them to the disk in the first place. :) > > > > I believe it's possible (though it would be slow) to interpret a > bit-for-bit > > image directly on a tape and extract any given file, along with > attributes, > > etc. In fact, any operation that would be possible on a disk, in this > case, > > could be handled on a tape. The clincher is that it would involve a lot > of > > seek/rewind/seek/etc/etc.. > > > > The underlying O/S need not even know the difference between the disk and > > tape, except to know that the tape is removable (...that's not absolutely > > required), and perhaps that it's incredibly slow. > > > > The worst that would be required is a device abstraction layer or the > like. > > You could write one yourself which would make the tape device "look" like > a > > disk device, for systems which don't have such a thing, and that would be > > enough. > > > > How would you like to be able to mount your backup tape, and use a > > file-manager on it? ;) > > > > > The Microsoft Backup that came with DOS, (a) never really was > > > a backup, but, > > > rather, was just a copy, and (b) never worked together with > > > its "restore" > > > function. Under DOS, copies were adequate, since the context > > > didn't matter. > > > > If you mean that it didn't store attributes, or that sort of thing, you > may > > be right (never paid attention.) On the other hand, you're also right to > > say that it wouldn't particularly matter under MS-DOS. > > > > Regards, > > > > Chris > > > > > > Christopher Smith, Perl Developer > > Amdocs - Champaign, IL > > > > /usr/bin/perl -e ' > > print((~"\x95\xc4\xe3"^"Just Another Perl Hacker.")."\x08!\n"); > > ' > > > > > > > > From csmith at amdocs.com Tue Nov 20 09:10:44 2001 From: csmith at amdocs.com (Christopher Smith) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:23:41 2005 Subject: OT: paging MAC expert(s) --- What's a Performa? Message-ID: <3B55D7F383B0D31197D9009027541CBF1170DEA7@cmiexch1.cmi.itds.com> > -----Original Message----- > From: Greg Ewing [mailto:greg@cosc.canterbury.ac.nz] > Christopher Smith : > > > Finder is the Macintosh shell. Best not to confuse the > users with terms > > like "file manager," "shell," "interface," "front-end," > Those are such dry, boring, Microsoft-sounding names. > Finder is so much cooler! Actually, those "dry" names mostly come from long before bill gates had even thought of writing a bad basic interpreter. > And it's not so much of a misnomer if you think of it > the right way. It lets *you* find things -- i.e. browse > the file system. Also, it finds an appropriate application > to launch for you when you open a document. I don't know if I can agree there. For instance, by allowing you to "browse the file system" and to manage your files, it will let you loose things as easily as find them. Might as well call it the "loser." ;) Now, regarding "finding" an application to run: What it actually does is read the location of the appropriate application from the desktop file, by looking it up based on a type/creator attribute stored in the files resource fork. I don't think it has to "find" anything for that. > By the way, System 7 and later Finders do have a > "Find..." command that will let you search for files > by name. Took them long enough, didn't it? :) I can agree here. This command really does allow one to "find" things, but it's a small part of the functionality of the program. Regards, Chris Christopher Smith, Perl Developer Amdocs - Champaign, IL /usr/bin/perl -e ' print((~"\x95\xc4\xe3"^"Just Another Perl Hacker.")."\x08!\n"); ' From csmith at amdocs.com Tue Nov 20 09:23:52 2001 From: csmith at amdocs.com (Christopher Smith) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:23:41 2005 Subject: OT: paging MAC expert(s) --- What's a Performa? Message-ID: <3B55D7F383B0D31197D9009027541CBF1170DEA8@cmiexch1.cmi.itds.com> > -----Original Message----- > From: Richard Erlacher [mailto:edick@idcomm.com] > drive are to be found in the tape image, I'd submit it would > be a mite tedious. Well, I didn't say it would be easy ;) It's one of those things that is theoretically simple. > physically identical to the one you started with, i.e. same > number of heads, > cylinders, sectors, etc, PHYSICALLY, else things fall apart, > since we don't know > how the drive firmware deals with translating from the > block-level commands the > OS may choose to send it, though it doesn't have to, to the > buffers-full of data > that the drive coughs up. There must be a method of block-by-block access that will give you the sequence of data you need. Otherwise things would have already fallen apart, and disks would be write-only devices. :) It probably helps to think of the filesystem as a data set, rather than a device-dependant entity. The data is the same, up to a point, no matter what you write it to. Of course, whether the amount of translation you'd need to do to find that essential data set is too much work, is arguable.... > potentially, to > deal with the data to be transferred to the newly cleaned > drive in the same way > that this particular OS deals with it. Of course, the OS > doesn't know what > you're doing, and doesn't know how to read the data on the > disk, except as raw > data, dealt with in buffer-fulls, and than only using the > code you've written. I'm not sure I follow your train of thought here. It's early, though. Regards, Chris Christopher Smith, Perl Developer Amdocs - Champaign, IL /usr/bin/perl -e ' print((~"\x95\xc4\xe3"^"Just Another Perl Hacker.")."\x08!\n"); ' From csmith at amdocs.com Tue Nov 20 09:29:04 2001 From: csmith at amdocs.com (Christopher Smith) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:23:41 2005 Subject: OT: paging MAC expert(s) --- What's a Performa? Message-ID: <3B55D7F383B0D31197D9009027541CBF1170DEA9@cmiexch1.cmi.itds.com> > -----Original Message----- > From: Greg Ewing [mailto:greg@cosc.canterbury.ac.nz] > Richard Erlacher : > > Of course, MAC OS may not be so virus friendly, but I don't know > > about that. > But even then, the virus can't jump *off* the disk onto a previously > clean system without running something from the disk, and that won't > happen unless you explicitly tell it to. If there's some way for that > to happen on Windows, then Windows is definitely more virus-friendly! There's at least one worm that takes advantage of a Quicktime feature (why on earth did they put this in Quicktime?!) that will automatically run some program on a volume when the volume is mounted. Don't remember the name of this "feature," but it is akin to the windows "autorun," and just as bad. Regards, Chris Christopher Smith, Perl Developer Amdocs - Champaign, IL /usr/bin/perl -e ' print((~"\x95\xc4\xe3"^"Just Another Perl Hacker.")."\x08!\n"); ' From edick at idcomm.com Tue Nov 20 09:32:01 2001 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:23:41 2005 Subject: OT: paging MAC expert(s) --- What's a Performa? References: <3B55D7F383B0D31197D9009027541CBF1170DE98@cmiexch1.cmi.itds.com> <000f01c17126$bed4d640$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> <3BFA3562.9C18C21E@verizon.net> Message-ID: <003901c171d8$8000df60$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> Yeah, except that under Windows, you get a copy, perhaps, but not a backup, in that if you have a virus, it is immediately transferred to the extra disk, rendering it unsafe to use. With tape, or CD, or, if there is support for backup, with writeable DVD, the medium requires special and separate software to operate it, so infection with a virus is less likely. Dick ----- Original Message ----- From: "Ian Koller" To: Sent: Tuesday, November 20, 2001 3:50 AM Subject: Re: OT: paging MAC expert(s) --- What's a Performa? > > > I don't know what a guy's to do. I guess image-copying the disk > > to tape, empty space and all, is the only solution. > > The best device to back up a hard drive to is ... another hard > drive. Fastest speed transfers. And as inexpensive as hard drives > are these days, why not? In DOS, and even Win9x ... xcopy > > > > > > Richard Erlacher wrote: > > > > I'm concerned mainly about Win9x. There were numerous backup packages that > > worked VERY well under [DOS6.22/Win3.11]. Since the release of Win9x, I've > > bought several backup packages, and a couple of releases of each, yet not seen > > one that even barely worked on any sort of consistent basis. The early backup > > program from ADAPTEC, part of their EasySCSI 4.xx package, didn't even support > > SCSI devices, and freely admitted it. Microsoft's backup utility for Windows95 > > didn't support SCSI devices either. Seagate Backup Exec supported SCSI-1 and > > SCSI-2 devices, though it didn't work terribly well because it opened files that > > subsequently required human intervention in order to complete the backup. > > Moreover, if permission was given to back up those files, it would fall down > > during verify, since it, itself, had modified those files. Novaback for > > Windows95 failed on 148 of the 151 units one of my clients has, failing in all > > those cases, to complete the backup. I've never managed to get Novaback to > > finish a restore either. Cheyenne backup was a miserable flop, failing to read > > its own writing from time to time. I could go on ... > > > > There's something about the OS that interferes with a backup. The Microsoft > > Backup for Win98 seems to work ...sorta... but it only works ...sorta... and > > falls down many times, misinterpreting a drive that the OS recognizes correctly > > to be a 2GB partition to be 300+ Terabytes. Naturally it falls down later > > because of that problem. > > > > An OS without a real backup utility is of little use because you have to have > > backup ... not just copies of things, but a real backup, context and all, that > > enables you to get back to where you were. DOS didn't have that, UNIX doesn't > > have it (though it does have TAR, which makes copies to tape), OS/2 doesn't have > > it, LINUX doesn't have it ... I don't know what a guy's to do. I guess > > image-copying the disk to tape, empty space and all, is the only solution. Of > > course that means the files are replaceable only on an all or nothing basis. > > ^%$#@! ... what a bunch of crap! > > > > Dick > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: "Christopher Smith" > > To: > > Sent: Monday, November 19, 2001 10:22 AM > > Subject: RE: OT: paging MAC expert(s) --- What's a Performa? > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > > From: Richard Erlacher [mailto:edick@idcomm.com] > > > > > > > the Intel CPU as well as the 'LC040, was 3.11/6.22. I was > > > > working more from the > > > > experience with Windows that I'd had more recently. My > > > > latest Windows, BTW, is > > > > '98SE, and, until they fix some of the very fundamental problems, like > > > > non-working OS utilities, e.g. Backup, I'm not getting any > > > > more M$ OS products. > > > > I'm told it may be a long wait, BTW. > > > > > > Has microsoft _ever_ had a working backup utility? OK, maybe xenix had a > > > working version of tar or cpio (I doubt it had both), but that's it. > > > However, since I'm supposed to "leave my anti-ms baggage at the door," > > > according to the faq, don't get me started ;) > > > > > > > This practice of theirs, of buying a non-functional cast-off from some > > > > financially-troubled software company and then integrating it > > > > into their OS is, > > > > in fact, an example of their "monopolistic practices" since > > > > > > Just ask yourself why most of these companies are troubled in the first > > > place... > > > > > > > they've no intention > > > > of supporting the product as an intrinsic function of their > > > > OS, though that's > > > > what they claim, as in the case of Internet Explorer, it is. > > > > Since you can't go > > > > to anyone else for a competing OS product, I guess they > > > > figure you're screwed, > > > > which is how I see it. > > > > > > Well, my most recent exposure is to windows 2000, which, admittedly, is > > > nearly as stable as NT 3.x was (4 was a joke). I only use it at work, and > > > only because they give me no choice. At home, I have plenty of other > > > options that do whatever I tell them to... ;) > > > > > > Regards, > > > > > > Chris > > > > > > Christopher Smith, Perl Developer > > > Amdocs - Champaign, IL > > > > > > /usr/bin/perl -e ' > > > print((~"\x95\xc4\xe3"^"Just Another Perl Hacker.")."\x08!\n"); > > > ' > > > > > > > > From edick at idcomm.com Tue Nov 20 09:10:25 2001 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:23:41 2005 Subject: 1771 floppy controller questions References: Message-ID: <001f01c171d5$7bf7e1a0$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> OK ... I can believe you'd reach that conclusion from what you describe. I've done that on one of those "late nights" on more than one occasion. It's reasonable to assume the part is toast, given that there are several supplies, each of which has been applied to the wrong pins. Too bad ... Dick ----- Original Message ----- From: "Tothwolf" To: Sent: Tuesday, November 20, 2001 2:25 AM Subject: Re: 1771 floppy controller questions > On Tue, 20 Nov 2001, Richard Erlacher wrote: > > From: "Tothwolf" > > > On Mon, 19 Nov 2001, Michael Holley wrote: > > > > From: "Tothwolf" > > > > > > > > > I have a complete TRS-80 Model I that has a dead Western Digital FD1771-01 > > > > > chip in its expansion interface. Does anyone know if a National 1771-B01 > > > > > is a suitable replacement? What would be a fair/reasonable price for a new > > > > > 1771 these days? > > > > > > > > B. G. Micro, www.bgmicro.com, has FD1771s for $4.95. > > > > > > Thanks for the info. I should be able to get my local vendor to match that > > > price since B.G. Micro is a fairly well known vendor. > > > > What is it that makes you believe that the 1771 s the problem? > > Well, I accidentally plugged the chip in backward when troubleshooting the > floppy interface right after I got it. It turned out that the floppy > ribbon was bad, just due to age I guess. I don't think the chip let out > its magic smoke, but it certainly does not work now ;) > > -Toth > > From jss at subatomix.com Tue Nov 20 09:13:08 2001 From: jss at subatomix.com (Jeffrey S. Sharp) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:23:41 2005 Subject: Radio Shack abandons components In-Reply-To: <3BFA6144.2080309@texoma.net> Message-ID: <20011120084534.F23837-100000@lepton.subatomix.com> On Tue, 20 Nov 2001, James L. Rice wrote: > my friend moved to a small town in Oklahoma, Unless he just really values the "don't use a turn signal 'cuz everyone knows where I'm goin'" small-town society, please send your friend my condolences. I've been there but managed to escape with (hopefully) more of my life ahead than behind. :-) On the other hand, the cost of living in small-town Oklahoma is one of the cheapest in the USA. For a concrete example, in my old hometown, a nice 3750 ft^2 house with a huge property sold for US$70K. This means less money spent living, more money to spend on classiccmping, and greater ease in finding room to put all of it. -- Jeffrey S. Sharp jss@subatomix.com From univac2 at earthlink.net Tue Nov 20 09:32:02 2001 From: univac2 at earthlink.net (Owen Robertson) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:23:41 2005 Subject: Radio Shack abandons components In-Reply-To: Message-ID: I live just north of Fort Worth, and the big Radio Shack "Outlet Store". They have a lot of discontinued things, and a lot of components. I assume they'll always have them. Owen on 11/20/01 5:58 AM, John Lawson at jpl15@panix.com wrote: > > > I have seen several posts on other fora bemoaning the fact that our > beloved Radio Shack is rapidly phasing out it's sales of carded > components, resistors, caps, diodes, etc. > > I imagine this to be the case... and another blow to Enginerds and > parts-level hobbyists not lucky enough to be near a Fry's or other > still-functioning small-quantity parts outlet. > > > Experimenters: Time to stock up! > > > > Cheers > > John > From ghldbrd at ccp.com Tue Nov 20 10:13:38 2001 From: ghldbrd at ccp.com (Gary Hildebrand) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:23:41 2005 Subject: Radio Shack abandons components References: Message-ID: <3BFA8132.B14060B4@ccp.com> John Lawson wrote: > > I have seen several posts on other fora bemoaning the fact that our > beloved Radio Shack is rapidly phasing out it's sales of carded > components, resistors, caps, diodes, etc. > > I imagine this to be the case... and another blow to Enginerds and > parts-level hobbyists not lucky enough to be near a Fry's or other > still-functioning small-quantity parts outlet. > > Experimenters: Time to stock up! > > Cheers > > John Well the trend is these days not to build anything from parts, especially in ham radio. Even at hamfests, the interesting goodies are disappearing, because there is no demand. The big retailers now make more money selling stereos, satellite TV systems and cell phone service than parats. Back to Jim-pack and mail order. Gary Hildebrand From edick at idcomm.com Tue Nov 20 09:33:47 2001 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:23:41 2005 Subject: SCB68430 DMA controller data sheets etc. References: <3820E2042B6ED5118DC200D0B78EDC47066233@exc-reo1> Message-ID: <003f01c171d8$bf492100$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> If you save the links to the manufacturer data sites, you'll probably be OK in the future. I've noticed over the past year that their links to datasheets have often come up empty. This makes me wonder whether it might be worth paying for, since I can come up empty on my own without subscribing to a service. Dick ----- Original Message ----- From: "Carlini, Antonio" To: Sent: Tuesday, November 20, 2001 3:51 AM Subject: RE: SCB68430 DMA controller data sheets etc. > > >It's available on http:\\www.freetradezone.com . There are > > two versions > > >of the sheet, D0194930.pdf is the 1988 version, D0191623.pdf is the > > >earlier 1996 version. > > > > Thanks! I was able to find it and a lot of other stuff too. > > I've just had an email from them > indicating that they are about to > start charging for *some* of their > service. > > It's not clear whether you will > soon have to pay to get access > to datasheets for out-of-production > parts. > > Antonio > arcarlini@iee.org > > From edick at idcomm.com Tue Nov 20 09:42:08 2001 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:23:41 2005 Subject: FreeTradeZone site moving to subscription-only for older parts References: <3C8FADE5@mail.totalise.co.uk> Message-ID: <004b01c171d9$e9f3de80$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> Frankly, though it would be useful on the job, it's hard to imagine a small shop being able to justify this level of expense for the relatively small percentage of the information that proved both useful and correct. On those occasions on which I did find what I was looking for the information was often so out-of-date that it really didn't matter. Data sheets, of course, don't change much, but their pointers to existing inventory "out there" in distribution usually were a wild-goose-chase. With the 10% success rate I experienced on parts I wanted, I've got to say it's not likely I'd pay $300/mo even if I had a dozen engineers using their research support. If I had a hundred purchasing guys, that might be different, except for the low success rate. It might be worth paying for this service if their links were kept current, and if one had the $10e9 procurement budget against which to justify such a high monthly cost. There have been numerous occasions on which GOOGLE has found parts they (PartMiner/FreeTradeZone) didn't, both in terms of data sheets and in existing inventory. I'd not pay for their service until they exceed by at least 100x the success rate of a public serach engine. Dick ----- Original Message ----- From: "Mark Knibbs" To: Cc: Sent: Tuesday, November 20, 2001 4:35 AM Subject: FreeTradeZone site moving to subscription-only for older parts > Hi, > > Some of you have probably used the PartMiner/FreeTradeZone web site at > http://www.freetradezone.com/ to download datasheets for older, discontinued > chips. This has been very useful to me. > > For discontinued products (which I guess is what most of us are interested > in), they are moving to a subscription-only system. Subscription cost is a > whopping US$299 per month (introductory; the normal cost is supposedly > US$375), so future access will only be viable for most people if you need it > for your job. > > I don't know when the change is being made, or if it has happened already. If > it hasn't, better download datasheets that you need while you still can. > > -- Mark > > From DAW at yalepress3.unipress.yale.edu Tue Nov 20 09:45:15 2001 From: DAW at yalepress3.unipress.yale.edu (David Woyciesjes) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:23:41 2005 Subject: FreeTradeZone site moving to subscription-only for older part s Message-ID: <9011A52E011ED311B4280004AC1BA615014672BB@yalepress3.unipress.yale.edu> Maybe runs a full-tilt website crawler/archiver program? The kind that grabs whetever pages you tell it, for offline reading, or some such thing? --- David A Woyciesjes --- C & IS Support Specialist --- Yale University Press --- mailto:david.woyciesjes@yale.edu --- (203) 432-0953 --- ICQ # - 905818 ! -----Original Message----- ! From: Mark Knibbs [mailto:mark_k@totalise.co.uk] ! Sent: Tuesday, November 20, 2001 6:35 AM ! To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org ! Cc: mark_k@totalise.co.uk ! Subject: FreeTradeZone site moving to subscription-only for ! older parts ! ! ! Hi, ! ! Some of you have probably used the PartMiner/FreeTradeZone web site at ! http://www.freetradezone.com/ to download datasheets for ! older, discontinued ! chips. This has been very useful to me. ! ! For discontinued products (which I guess is what most of us ! are interested ! in), they are moving to a subscription-only system. ! Subscription cost is a ! whopping US$299 per month (introductory; the normal cost is ! supposedly ! US$375), so future access will only be viable for most people ! if you need it ! for your job. ! ! I don't know when the change is being made, or if it has ! happened already. If ! it hasn't, better download datasheets that you need while you ! still can. ! ! -- Mark ! From edick at idcomm.com Tue Nov 20 09:46:41 2001 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:23:41 2005 Subject: Radio Shack abandons components References: Message-ID: <005101c171da$8c5e8b20$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> It's not a bad idea to check RadioShack.com, which is a parts-oriented outlet that, unfortunately, didn't interact with the RadioShack stores. They have lots of parts, connectors that fit together, and lots of other stuff that the corner Radio Shack store never thought to carry. Moreover, they have people who answer the phone and a web-accessible parts inventory that uses industry standard part numbers rather than Radio Shack secret code. It happens that their store is here in Denver, which is advantageous for shipping, I guess, but, having visited the place myself, I have to say it's a shame they also retail computers and other electronics, which means that market trends could push them out of the parts biz after a while too. Their company is, after all, run by marketing and the bean counters. Dick ----- Original Message ----- From: "John Lawson" To: Sent: Tuesday, November 20, 2001 4:58 AM Subject: Radio Shack abandons components > > > I have seen several posts on other fora bemoaning the fact that our > beloved Radio Shack is rapidly phasing out it's sales of carded > components, resistors, caps, diodes, etc. > > I imagine this to be the case... and another blow to Enginerds and > parts-level hobbyists not lucky enough to be near a Fry's or other > still-functioning small-quantity parts outlet. > > > Experimenters: Time to stock up! > > > > Cheers > > John > > From edick at idcomm.com Tue Nov 20 09:48:00 2001 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:23:41 2005 Subject: Radio Shack abandons components References: <7A9BACCEF0171D4FB77019F5104CDD3722593D@jeffserver.tegjeff.com> Message-ID: <005d01c171da$bbabeb20$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> Well, this means that DigiKey will have yet another price increase, as Radio Shack did serve to provide a ceiling on parts/materials prices. Dick ----- Original Message ----- From: "Douglas Quebbeman" To: Sent: Tuesday, November 20, 2001 5:29 AM Subject: RE: Radio Shack abandons components > > Experimenters: Time to stock up! > > Nah... Long Live Jameco & Digi-Key! > > -dq > > From ncherry at home.com Tue Nov 20 09:52:02 2001 From: ncherry at home.com (Neil Cherry) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:23:41 2005 Subject: Radio Shack abandons components References: <20011120084534.F23837-100000@lepton.subatomix.com> Message-ID: <3BFA7C22.CA356CC0@home.com> "Jeffrey S. Sharp" wrote: > > On Tue, 20 Nov 2001, James L. Rice wrote: > > > my friend moved to a small town in Oklahoma, > > Unless he just really values the "don't use a turn signal 'cuz everyone > knows where I'm goin'" small-town society, please send your friend my > condolences. I've been there but managed to escape with (hopefully) more > of my life ahead than behind. :-) > > On the other hand, the cost of living in small-town Oklahoma is one of the > cheapest in the USA. For a concrete example, in my old hometown, a nice > 3750 ft^2 house with a huge property sold for US$70K. This means less > money spent living, more money to spend on classiccmping, and greater ease > in finding room to put all of it. My wife an I have gotten pretty good at catalog shopping, so mail order works well for us. I'm finding that most of the local stores (even the malls) are selling lower quality items. Though I will say that Kmart has made a vast improvement since Martha Stewart got involved. The only thing we can't do mail order is food. I live in NJ and find that the area's restaurants stay open until ~midnight and we have a varied menu to choose from. I understand that Brooklyn has a more varied menu too. On the other note of piece meal components, I've found that with a lot of imagination one can take advantage of today's uControllers to build some of the coolest stuff. Processors cost ~$6, 3 pcbs (~2"x3") $50, add the components and a single hand built board can cost <$100. PLD's, FPGA, etc. etc.. Man do we live in interesting times (both good and bad). -- Linux Home Automation Neil Cherry ncherry@home.net http://members.home.net/ncherry (Text only) http://linuxha.sourceforge.net/ (SourceForge) http://hcs.sourceforge.net/ (HCS II) From cmcmanis at mcmanis.com Tue Nov 20 10:11:55 2001 From: cmcmanis at mcmanis.com (Chuck McManis) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:23:41 2005 Subject: Radio Shack abandons components In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <5.0.0.25.2.20011120081004.024bfde0@209.185.79.193> I've seen this coming for a while. At 06:58 AM 11/20/01 -0500, John wrote: > I have seen several posts on other fora bemoaning the fact that our >beloved Radio Shack is rapidly phasing out it's sales of carded >components, resistors, caps, diodes, etc. > > I imagine this to be the case... and another blow to Enginerds and >parts-level hobbyists not lucky enough to be near a Fry's or other >still-functioning small-quantity parts outlet. > > Experimenters: Time to stock up! If you live in the US (sorry John) then Digikey is pretty good at getting many of the parts you need. Between them, Mouser, and a few surplus places I can find everything I need for any given project. However, it is true that "hobbyist" electronics is quickly going to become a lot more challenging. --Chuck From tothwolf at concentric.net Tue Nov 20 09:51:11 2001 From: tothwolf at concentric.net (Tothwolf) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:23:41 2005 Subject: 1771 floppy controller questions In-Reply-To: <001f01c171d5$7bf7e1a0$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> Message-ID: On Tue, 20 Nov 2001, Richard Erlacher wrote: > From: "Tothwolf" > > On Tue, 20 Nov 2001, Richard Erlacher wrote: > > > > > What is it that makes you believe that the 1771 s the problem? > > > > Well, I accidentally plugged the chip in backward when troubleshooting the > > floppy interface right after I got it. It turned out that the floppy > > ribbon was bad, just due to age I guess. I don't think the chip let out > > its magic smoke, but it certainly does not work now ;) > > OK ... I can believe you'd reach that conclusion from what you describe. I've > done that on one of those "late nights" on more than one occasion. It's > reasonable to assume the part is toast, given that there are several supplies, > each of which has been applied to the wrong pins. Too bad ... I'm really not too worried about it, since the 1771 does seem to be available and I have the technical reference book for the expansion interface. I don't think there are any unusual or proprietary chips used in the expansion interface with the exception of the floppy controller. If it took out any other logic chips with it, I should be able to replace those easily. It appears that my local vendor may have just assumed the part he has in stock is a National, since I can't find any references to National ever manufacturing a 1771, and the -B01 is a WD suffix. -Toth From csmith at amdocs.com Tue Nov 20 09:53:55 2001 From: csmith at amdocs.com (Christopher Smith) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:23:41 2005 Subject: Update: Hello, and please help with RSX-11M/PDP parts Message-ID: <3B55D7F383B0D31197D9009027541CBF1170DEAA@cmiexch1.cmi.itds.com> Due to popular demand (by pretty much everyone who's answered this post. :) I've gotten the version of RSX, as close as I can manage, and everything else that the system tells me. For those of you who missed it, I'm trying to get this machine to log me in as some privileged user so that I can -- among other things -- back the drive up. The startup sequence on the console port looks like this: 2J5;0H Testing in progress - Please wait 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 Starting system DEVICE TT005: NOT IN CONFIGURATION At this point the console port does nothing more, however, on another port at the time, we see: RSX-11M V4.2 BL38D 512.K MAPPED >RED DU:=SY: >RED DU:=LB: >MOV DU:DF370B >@DU:[1,2]STARTUP >* Please enter time and date (HR:MN DD-MMM-YY) [S]: At this point if one enters a time/date, they will be rewarded with a > prompt, and logged in as [10,10]. If you hit ^Z, the exact same thing happens. :) Any more ideas? Regards, Chris Christopher Smith, Perl Developer Amdocs - Champaign, IL /usr/bin/perl -e ' print((~"\x95\xc4\xe3"^"Just Another Perl Hacker.")."\x08!\n"); ' From edick at idcomm.com Tue Nov 20 09:57:26 2001 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:23:41 2005 Subject: OT: paging MAC expert(s) --- What's a Performa? References: <3B55D7F383B0D31197D9009027541CBF1170DE98@cmiexch1.cmi.itds.com> <000f01c17126$bed4d640$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> <3BF94534.64957004@jetnet.ab.ca> <5.0.0.25.0.20011119165437.022272e8@pc> <5.0.0.25.0.20011120070908.022272e8@pc> Message-ID: <007301c171dc$0cf1c6c0$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> I'm not awar of how this works on a MAC, but under Windows, the OS checks to see what volumes are available to it on about a 1 Hz schedule. If a virus is looking for a drive to infect, it finds it as soon as the OS says it's there, and its dirty work begins. Unless you're using a utility that masquerades a tape drive as a disk, e.g. TapeDisk or Direct-Tape-Access, both of which assign a drive letter to the tape drive and allow you to put a Windows file system on the tape, an application that deals directly with the tape has to be in place in order to access it. Though an infected program can be stored on the tape, since the OS can't do file I/O to/from the tape without help from a tape handler application (not just the driver) the tape can't easily become a vehicle for transfer of a virus unless you transfer an infected file to your newly cleaned hard disk and subsequently execute it. I'm told that there are completely different mechanisms in place on a MAC, and that could make a huge difference. If you want to sit with Sellam, it's not a problem for me. I'm sure he'll enjoy the company. Dick ----- Original Message ----- From: "John Foust" To: Sent: Tuesday, November 20, 2001 6:09 AM Subject: Re: OT: paging MAC expert(s) --- What's a Performa? > At 06:15 PM 11/19/2001 -0700, Richard Erlacher wrote: > > Viruses can't deal directly with the tape, just > >as the OS can't deal directly with the tape. A virus that gets onto a tape > >won't be an executable, hence probably won't go there except in the form of > >already-corrupted files. > > That's it. I'm going over to sit with Sellam. > > - John > > From edick at idcomm.com Tue Nov 20 10:18:14 2001 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:23:41 2005 Subject: OT: paging MAC expert(s) --- What's a Performa? References: <3B55D7F383B0D31197D9009027541CBF1170DEA8@cmiexch1.cmi.itds.com> Message-ID: <008b01c171de$f50c7fc0$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> Perhaps you've lost track, but the subject was recording a bitwise image of the drive to be restored, rather than a file-by-file image. This involves taking raw blocks of data, in some repeatable sequence, saving them on a storage medium, and subsequently writing them back to a physically identical (not just logically identical) target, without consideration for whether the data in a given block is part of a file or part of a directory (also a file, but who cares?), the object being to recreate the original environment. An example might be recording the "container file" in a compressed volume. Much of that file might be unallocated space, but, as the file is, itself, allocated in the uncompressed domain, restoring it bitwise will restore the compressed partition and its associated file system. One can also record the file data under an operating system that recognizes the compressed partition, the result of which would be the recording of the uncompressed data. The bitwise image transfer from disk=>tape can be done without knowledge of either the compression scheme or of the OS/file system used on it. It does require, however, that the entire image be recorded so it can be restored in its entirety. The result is that you can use a different OS to do that task though it's not required, and the penalty is that you have no access to the file data, though you could, I guess, go to the trouble of deciphering the bitwise image into a logical file system if one originally existed. You can do that under any circumstances, but it's a lot of trouble and requires you know a great deal about the low-level processes of converting the data on the orginal drive into the files comprising it. Dick ----- Original Message ----- From: "Christopher Smith" To: Sent: Tuesday, November 20, 2001 8:23 AM Subject: RE: OT: paging MAC expert(s) --- What's a Performa? > > -----Original Message----- > > From: Richard Erlacher [mailto:edick@idcomm.com] > > > drive are to be found in the tape image, I'd submit it would > > be a mite tedious. > > Well, I didn't say it would be easy ;) It's one of those things that is > theoretically simple. > > > physically identical to the one you started with, i.e. same > > number of heads, > > cylinders, sectors, etc, PHYSICALLY, else things fall apart, > > since we don't know > > how the drive firmware deals with translating from the > > block-level commands the > > OS may choose to send it, though it doesn't have to, to the > > buffers-full of data > > that the drive coughs up. > > There must be a method of block-by-block access that will give you the > sequence of data you need. Otherwise things would have already fallen > apart, and disks would be write-only devices. :) It probably helps to think > of the filesystem as a data set, rather than a device-dependant entity. The > data is the same, up to a point, no matter what you write it to. > > Of course, whether the amount of translation you'd need to do to find that > essential data set is too much work, is arguable.... > > > potentially, to > > deal with the data to be transferred to the newly cleaned > > drive in the same way > > that this particular OS deals with it. Of course, the OS > > doesn't know what > > you're doing, and doesn't know how to read the data on the > > disk, except as raw > > data, dealt with in buffer-fulls, and than only using the > > code you've written. > > I'm not sure I follow your train of thought here. It's early, though. > > Regards, > > Chris > > > Christopher Smith, Perl Developer > Amdocs - Champaign, IL > > /usr/bin/perl -e ' > print((~"\x95\xc4\xe3"^"Just Another Perl Hacker.")."\x08!\n"); > ' > > > From edick at idcomm.com Tue Nov 20 10:36:39 2001 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:23:41 2005 Subject: 1771 floppy controller questions References: Message-ID: <009901c171e1$8758ab40$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> I don't know right offhand of any second sources, except for Intel, which did, IIRC, make a 1771-equivalent/compatible for a time. They went the NEC route when MFM became popular, however. WD also made a 1781 which was M2FM capable, and, as some folks will tell you, THAT's a hard modulation scheme to support. As I mentioned before, it might be worthwhile to communicate with Tony Duell regarding the expansion interface, as he recently admitted he'd actually made the model-1 disk interface work as it was designed to work. A lot of folks couldn't get reasonable reliability until they bought a third-party enhancment for the floppy interface. Dick ----- Original Message ----- From: "Tothwolf" To: Sent: Tuesday, November 20, 2001 8:51 AM Subject: Re: 1771 floppy controller questions > On Tue, 20 Nov 2001, Richard Erlacher wrote: > > From: "Tothwolf" > > > On Tue, 20 Nov 2001, Richard Erlacher wrote: > > > > > > > What is it that makes you believe that the 1771 s the problem? > > > > > > Well, I accidentally plugged the chip in backward when troubleshooting the > > > floppy interface right after I got it. It turned out that the floppy > > > ribbon was bad, just due to age I guess. I don't think the chip let out > > > its magic smoke, but it certainly does not work now ;) > > > > OK ... I can believe you'd reach that conclusion from what you describe. I've > > done that on one of those "late nights" on more than one occasion. It's > > reasonable to assume the part is toast, given that there are several supplies, > > each of which has been applied to the wrong pins. Too bad ... > > I'm really not too worried about it, since the 1771 does seem to be > available and I have the technical reference book for the expansion > interface. I don't think there are any unusual or proprietary chips used > in the expansion interface with the exception of the floppy controller. If > it took out any other logic chips with it, I should be able to replace > those easily. > > It appears that my local vendor may have just assumed the part he has in > stock is a National, since I can't find any references to National ever > manufacturing a 1771, and the -B01 is a WD suffix. > > -Toth > > From rhblakeman at kih.net Tue Nov 20 10:41:14 2001 From: rhblakeman at kih.net (Russ Blakeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:23:41 2005 Subject: Radio Shack abandons components In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Radio Shack has been slowly diminishing the individual parts and goin for the glamour sales of consumer electronics mostly anymore. Won't be long and the days of RS/Lafayette/Olson being in the nearby neighborhood strip malls for those that want to "do it themselves" will be totally gone. -> -----Original Message----- -> From: owner-classiccmp@classiccmp.org -> [mailto:owner-classiccmp@classiccmp.org]On Behalf Of John Lawson -> Sent: Tuesday, November 20, 2001 5:59 AM -> To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org -> Subject: Radio Shack abandons components -> -> -> -> -> I have seen several posts on other fora bemoaning the fact that our -> beloved Radio Shack is rapidly phasing out it's sales of carded -> components, resistors, caps, diodes, etc. -> -> I imagine this to be the case... and another blow to Enginerds and -> parts-level hobbyists not lucky enough to be near a Fry's or other -> still-functioning small-quantity parts outlet. -> -> -> Experimenters: Time to stock up! -> -> -> -> Cheers -> -> John -> -> From edick at idcomm.com Tue Nov 20 10:46:23 2001 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:23:41 2005 Subject: Radio Shack abandons components References: <5.0.0.25.2.20011120081004.024bfde0@209.185.79.193> Message-ID: <00a101c171e2$e3a56720$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> This is only another sign of the trend. Whereas, some 20+ years back, it was no problem to go out and buy IC's and passives, which could easily be reworked, today's ultra dense and surface mounted technology is so difficult to work by hand that board-level repair is very difficult with tools likely to be in the hobbyist's kit. It doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure out what that's done to the market. Consequently, there's little sense in having a worldwide components distribution network, as Radio Shack has had for >25 years. Today's electronic gadgets have a hundred+ components per square inch of PCB, and most of them are difficult to remove/replace without damaging them or the board. For me, it's enough of a problem if I just drop one part. Resistors, capcitors, and inductors are the size of a pinhead nowadays, and you need not only a microscope to read the designators on them, but a vast library to interpret the markings. The retail space is too valuable to use for something that no longer serves the public interest, or the corporate coffers. What's more, the economy benefits more from replacement of a PCB than from its repair, though it costs you, the end-user, more, and generates more rubbish in the landfill. Dick ----- Original Message ----- From: "Chuck McManis" To: Sent: Tuesday, November 20, 2001 9:11 AM Subject: Re: Radio Shack abandons components > I've seen this coming for a while. > > At 06:58 AM 11/20/01 -0500, John wrote: > > I have seen several posts on other fora bemoaning the fact that our > >beloved Radio Shack is rapidly phasing out it's sales of carded > >components, resistors, caps, diodes, etc. > > > > I imagine this to be the case... and another blow to Enginerds and > >parts-level hobbyists not lucky enough to be near a Fry's or other > >still-functioning small-quantity parts outlet. > > > > Experimenters: Time to stock up! > > > If you live in the US (sorry John) then Digikey is pretty good at getting > many of the parts you need. Between them, Mouser, and a few surplus places > I can find everything I need for any given project. However, it is true > that "hobbyist" electronics is quickly going to become a lot more challenging. > > --Chuck > > > From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Tue Nov 20 11:06:36 2001 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (Ben Franchuk) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:23:41 2005 Subject: Radio Shack abandons components References: <20011120084534.F23837-100000@lepton.subatomix.com> <3BFA7C22.CA356CC0@home.com> Message-ID: <3BFA8D9C.35FDD510@jetnet.ab.ca> Neil Cherry wrote: > On the other note of piece meal components, I've found that with a lot of > imagination one can take advantage of today's uControllers to build some > of the coolest stuff. Processors cost ~$6, 3 pcbs (~2"x3") $50, add the > components and a single hand built board can cost <$100. PLD's, FPGA, etc. > etc.. Man do we live in interesting times (both good and bad). But one problem is that almost all real I/O is handled by hard to find semi-custiom chips - PC motherboards come to mind. Many of the older I/O devices are too slow to be of value. Ben Franchuk. -- Live "Pre-historic Cpu's" -- and you thought they were extinct. www.jetnet.ab.ca/users/bfranchuk/index.html From allain at panix.com Tue Nov 20 11:07:47 2001 From: allain at panix.com (John Allain) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:23:41 2005 Subject: Radio Shack abandons components References: <3BFA6144.2080309@texoma.net> <3BFA6468.90507@texoma.net> Message-ID: <035d01c171e5$e113b860$8a0101ac@ibm23xhr06> > Re: Radio Shack abandons components Did TechAmerica (I think that was a RatShack business) make it? That would be an OK way to transition that business and enhance it at the same time. Has everyone seen the catalog? More kit builds than any I've seen in the past 20 years. > Sorry for the typos. I broke a couple of fingers this week. > Hard to type with fingers taped together (James L. Rice) I hope this wasn't from wedging heavy things into 19" racks!* Best wishes in any case. John A. Or from paired Alnico voice coil magnets. Or from belts for 8" drives. Or from ...... From msell at ontimesupport.com Tue Nov 20 11:27:34 2001 From: msell at ontimesupport.com (Matthew Sell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:23:41 2005 Subject: Radio Shack abandons components In-Reply-To: <00a101c171e2$e3a56720$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> References: <5.0.0.25.2.20011120081004.024bfde0@209.185.79.193> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20011120112159.0385c9c8@127.0.0.1> And don't forget the fact that people today seem (in my opinion) to experiment and tinker with electronics less and less. I moonlighted at a Radio Shack for two years, and during that time I sold maybe three or four electronics kits to people. I was the biggest buyer in the district of component parts (capacitors, resistors, ICs, and such), while the only real component sales we had were fuses and lamps. Signs of the times. We had a Fry's open up near me (Houston, TX), and walking in there was a real tinkerer's dream. Everything from appliances and telescopes to computers and electronic components (and a decent selection of REAL test equipment - not just DVMs!). I'm surprised that they actually sell electronic components. I could get lost in that store and not come out until Chapter 11....... : ) - Matt At 09:46 AM 11/20/2001 -0700, you wrote: >This is only another sign of the trend. Whereas, some 20+ years back, it >was no >problem to go out and buy IC's and passives, which could easily be reworked, >today's ultra dense and surface mounted technology is so difficult to work by >hand that board-level repair is very difficult with tools likely to be in the >hobbyist's kit. It doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure out what that's >done to the market. > >Consequently, there's little sense in having a worldwide components >distribution >network, as Radio Shack has had for >25 years. Today's electronic gadgets >have >a hundred+ components per square inch of PCB, and most of them are >difficult to >remove/replace without damaging them or the board. For me, it's enough of a >problem if I just drop one part. Resistors, capcitors, and inductors are the >size of a pinhead nowadays, and you need not only a microscope to read the >designators on them, but a vast library to interpret the markings. The retail >space is too valuable to use for something that no longer serves the public >interest, or the corporate coffers. What's more, the economy benefits >more from >replacement of a PCB than from its repair, though it costs you, the end-user, >more, and generates more rubbish in the landfill. > >Dick > >----- Original Message ----- >From: "Chuck McManis" >To: >Sent: Tuesday, November 20, 2001 9:11 AM >Subject: Re: Radio Shack abandons components > > > > I've seen this coming for a while. > > > > At 06:58 AM 11/20/01 -0500, John wrote: > > > I have seen several posts on other fora bemoaning the fact that our > > >beloved Radio Shack is rapidly phasing out it's sales of carded > > >components, resistors, caps, diodes, etc. > > > > > > I imagine this to be the case... and another blow to Enginerds and > > >parts-level hobbyists not lucky enough to be near a Fry's or other > > >still-functioning small-quantity parts outlet. > > > > > > Experimenters: Time to stock up! > > > > > > If you live in the US (sorry John) then Digikey is pretty good at getting > > many of the parts you need. Between them, Mouser, and a few surplus places > > I can find everything I need for any given project. However, it is true > > that "hobbyist" electronics is quickly going to become a lot more > challenging. > > > > --Chuck > > > > > > Matthew Sell Programmer On Time Support, Inc. www.ontimesupport.com (281) 296-6066 Join the Metrology Software discussion group METLIST! http://www.ontimesupport.com/cgi-bin/mojo/mojo.cgi "One World, One Web, One Program" - Microsoft Promotional Ad "Ein Volk, Ein Reich, Ein Fuhrer" - Adolf Hitler Many thanks for this tagline to a fellow RGVAC'er... From zmerch at 30below.com Tue Nov 20 11:45:04 2001 From: zmerch at 30below.com (Roger Merchberger) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:23:42 2005 Subject: Radio Shack abandons components In-Reply-To: <3BFA7C22.CA356CC0@home.com> References: <20011120084534.F23837-100000@lepton.subatomix.com> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20011120124003.02c36630@mail.30below.com> Rumor has it that Neil Cherry may have mentioned these words: >"Jeffrey S. Sharp" wrote: > > > > On Tue, 20 Nov 2001, James L. Rice wrote: > > > > > my friend moved to a small town in Oklahoma, > > > > Unless he just really values the "don't use a turn signal 'cuz everyone > > knows where I'm goin'" small-town society, please send your friend my > > condolences. I've been there but managed to escape with (hopefully) more > > of my life ahead than behind. :-) Yes, but knowing that you 1) have only a few small-town teen hoodlums and you usually know what they're going to do before they do is a very nice feeling sometimes... Digi-key always seemed to expensive for my tastes -- at least for everything that I need, Mouser seems a lot less expensive & I can attest that they have *very* helpful and quite clueful staff, but when you need that *weird* part, JDR & Jameco seem to keep a lot of older stuff in stock... > > On the other hand, the cost of living in small-town Oklahoma is one of the > > cheapest in the USA. For a concrete example, in my old hometown, a nice > > 3750 ft^2 house with a huge property sold for US$70K. This means less > > money spent living, more money to spend on classiccmping, and greater ease > > in finding room to put all of it. Damn! I could actually *afford* that - but the only thing that comes close to big enough for me, the wife, 3 chilluns (& of course the computers) is a handyman's [wet]dream... >My wife an I have gotten pretty good at catalog shopping, so mail order >works well for us. I'm finding that most of the local stores (even the >malls) are selling lower quality items. Though I will say that Kmart has >made a vast improvement since Martha Stewart got involved. The only thing >we can't do mail order is food. I live in NJ and find that the area's >restaurants stay open until ~midnight and we have a varied menu to >choose from. I understand that Brooklyn has a more varied menu too. No! Nooooooo! Not the food thing again!!! >On the other note of piece meal components, I've found that with a lot of >imagination one can take advantage of today's uControllers to build some >of the coolest stuff. Processors cost ~$6, 3 pcbs (~2"x3") $50, add the >components and a single hand built board can cost <$100. PLD's, FPGA, etc. >etc.. Man do we live in interesting times (both good and bad). Yes we do. Roger "Merch" Merchberger From csmith at amdocs.com Tue Nov 20 11:07:06 2001 From: csmith at amdocs.com (Christopher Smith) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:23:42 2005 Subject: OT: paging MAC expert(s) --- What's a Performa? Message-ID: <3B55D7F383B0D31197D9009027541CBF1170DEAF@cmiexch1.cmi.itds.com> > -----Original Message----- > From: Richard Erlacher [mailto:edick@idcomm.com] > medium, and subsequently writing them back to a physically > identical (not just > logically identical) target, without consideration for Why not just logically identical, then? ... assuming, of course, the same o/s would handle devices which are logically identical in an identical manner. (This may not be a safe assumption) [snip] > The bitwise image transfer from disk=>tape can be done > without knowledge of > either the compression scheme or of the OS/file system used > on it. It does > require, however, that the entire image be recorded so it can > be restored in its > entirety. The result is that you can use a different OS to > do that task though > it's not required, and the penalty is that you have no access > to the file data, > though you could, I guess, go to the trouble of deciphering > the bitwise image > into a logical file system if one originally existed. You > can do that under any > circumstances, but it's a lot of trouble and requires you > know a great deal > about the low-level processes of converting the data on the > orginal drive into > the files comprising it. I think you've just summed up my previous point. That being, of course, that if you can record a bit-by-bit image, you should also be able to interpret this image (with quite a bit of extra work), and find the component files. In fact, I'd add that depending on the amount of extra work you're willing to do, you can likely restore the image in a "logical" fashion to a volume that is completely different from the one on which it originally resided. Regards, Chris Christopher Smith, Perl Developer Amdocs - Champaign, IL /usr/bin/perl -e ' print((~"\x95\xc4\xe3"^"Just Another Perl Hacker.")."\x08!\n"); ' From foo at siconic.com Tue Nov 20 11:20:55 2001 From: foo at siconic.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:23:42 2005 Subject: Intel C8080A chip brings $565 on EBAY In-Reply-To: <3BF9A84E.550BBEF9@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: On Mon, 19 Nov 2001, Ben Franchuk wrote: > I suspect it is 100% S-100 bus. Heath Kit? or Zenith? has a nice 8086 > system on a S-100 bus back when people first started cloning dos. Ben > Franchuk. One in the same really, but the Heath model is the H100 and the Zenith model is the Z100. There is also a Z120 which has integrated CRT and disk drives. Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org From foo at siconic.com Tue Nov 20 11:21:20 2001 From: foo at siconic.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:23:42 2005 Subject: Interesting find In-Reply-To: <20011120005251.F22748-100000@lepton.subatomix.com> Message-ID: On Tue, 20 Nov 2001, Jeffrey S. Sharp wrote: > I'm not much of a calculator collector, but the following seems to be > much more than a mere calculator. I've located an HP 9825 for $5 at a > local surplus store. I think I'll go purchase it tomorrow. Good deal, neat little programmable machine. Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org From foo at siconic.com Tue Nov 20 11:24:55 2001 From: foo at siconic.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:23:42 2005 Subject: Interesting find In-Reply-To: <001d01c171be$82d4e5c0$7937fea9@Guerney> Message-ID: On Tue, 20 Nov 2001, Phil wrote: > ....only in America. I've been on the lookout for any of the 98XX > series HP desktop "calculators" (most definitely computers), but here > "down-under", no such luck. I think it would be uneconomical to > freight one from the USA though :( Phil, Not really. Assuming it weighs 20lbs with packaging (probably an over-estimate) it would only cost US$41 to ship via the US Postal Service. Not too bad. Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org From Golemancd at aol.com Tue Nov 20 11:45:44 2001 From: Golemancd at aol.com (Golemancd@aol.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:23:42 2005 Subject: panasonic hhc Message-ID: i was in a pawn shop a couple of years ago and the guy behind the counter had a calculator type deal on the counter and he just said i could have it. he said someone just left it there. it has a full keyboard with a small lcd and a printer attachment. panasonic hhc anyone know about this . joe From Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de Tue Nov 20 11:56:01 2001 From: Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de (Hans Franke) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:23:42 2005 Subject: panasonic hhc In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <3BFAA741.24992.FCAD95A4@localhost> > i was in a pawn shop a couple of years ago and the guy behind the > counter had a calculator type deal on the counter and he just said i could > have > it. he said someone just left it there. it has a full keyboard with a small > lcd > and a printer attachment. panasonic hhc > anyone know about this . No Lid ? Than its the 6502 HHC - a full fledged 6502 system. Basic in ROM etc. niche machine. Gruss H. -- VCF Europa 3.0 am 27./28. April 2002 in Muenchen http://www.vcfe.org/ From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Tue Nov 20 11:56:34 2001 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (Allison) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:23:42 2005 Subject: 1771 floppy controller questions Message-ID: <000001c171f7$d0248680$6b7b7b7b@ajp> Intel never did a 1771 compatable chip. They did do the 8271 that was FM only but totally incompatable with the 1771 socket. The second source that did ship parts is SMC. The other supplier was National Semi. NEC Started with the D372, that was a hard/soft sector single density controller that did find it's way into the first version of the IMSAI floppy controller. Allison -----Original Message----- From: Richard Erlacher To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org Date: Tuesday, November 20, 2001 12:05 PM Subject: Re: 1771 floppy controller questions >I don't know right offhand of any second sources, except for Intel, which did, >IIRC, make a 1771-equivalent/compatible for a time. They went the NEC route >when MFM became popular, however. > >WD also made a 1781 which was M2FM capable, and, as some folks will tell you, >THAT's a hard modulation scheme to support. > >As I mentioned before, it might be worthwhile to communicate with Tony Duell >regarding the expansion interface, as he recently admitted he'd actually made >the model-1 disk interface work as it was designed to work. A lot of folks >couldn't get reasonable reliability until they bought a third-party enhancment >for the floppy interface. > >Dick > >----- Original Message ----- >From: "Tothwolf" >To: >Sent: Tuesday, November 20, 2001 8:51 AM >Subject: Re: 1771 floppy controller questions > > >> On Tue, 20 Nov 2001, Richard Erlacher wrote: >> > From: "Tothwolf" >> > > On Tue, 20 Nov 2001, Richard Erlacher wrote: >> > > >> > > > What is it that makes you believe that the 1771 s the problem? >> > > >> > > Well, I accidentally plugged the chip in backward when troubleshooting the >> > > floppy interface right after I got it. It turned out that the floppy >> > > ribbon was bad, just due to age I guess. I don't think the chip let out >> > > its magic smoke, but it certainly does not work now ;) >> > >> > OK ... I can believe you'd reach that conclusion from what you describe. >I've >> > done that on one of those "late nights" on more than one occasion. It's >> > reasonable to assume the part is toast, given that there are several >supplies, >> > each of which has been applied to the wrong pins. Too bad ... >> >> I'm really not too worried about it, since the 1771 does seem to be >> available and I have the technical reference book for the expansion >> interface. I don't think there are any unusual or proprietary chips used >> in the expansion interface with the exception of the floppy controller. If >> it took out any other logic chips with it, I should be able to replace >> those easily. >> >> It appears that my local vendor may have just assumed the part he has in >> stock is a National, since I can't find any references to National ever >> manufacturing a 1771, and the -B01 is a WD suffix. >> >> -Toth >> >> > From cisin at xenosoft.com Tue Nov 20 12:00:39 2001 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin (XenoSoft)) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:23:42 2005 Subject: 1771 chip brings $565 on EBAY? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: > Well, I accidentally plugged the chip in backward when troubleshooting the > floppy interface right after I got it. It turned out that the floppy > ribbon was bad, just due to age I guess. I don't think the chip let out > its magic smoke, but it certainly does not work now ;) A modest proposal: Since the chip collectors don't REALLY care whether tha chip is actually WORKING, ... So long as the escape of the magic smoke didn't leave any marks, save the electrically dead chips, and let the ship collectors have them. If the chip collectors would be willing to trade working common varieties of chips for dead rarer colors, ... C'mon guys, got a working common variety 1771 for Toth? Sellam: I checked through some of my junk, and couldn't find ANY dayglo yellow 8080s. Would other dayglo colors work? -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin@xenosoft.com NOTE: My ISP is having some problems. If you have difficulty reaching me at this e-mail address, you can leave a message at: fcisin@merritt.edu cisin@info.sims.berkeley.edu From univac2 at earthlink.net Tue Nov 20 12:05:31 2001 From: univac2 at earthlink.net (Owen Robertson) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:23:42 2005 Subject: Tandy 10 Info Wanted Message-ID: Does anyone know anything about the Tandy 10? It was Tandy/Radio Shack's larger microcomputer around the time the TRS-80 Model I came out. I found a picture of one in a book, and got kind of interested in it (partially a little home-town pride, being from Fort Worth). I can't find hardly any information about it on the internet. Thanks, Owen From menadeau at mediaone.net Tue Nov 20 12:34:58 2001 From: menadeau at mediaone.net (Michael Nadeau) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:23:42 2005 Subject: Tandy 10 Info Wanted References: Message-ID: <160e01c171f2$138b38c0$0b01a8c0@ValuedCustomer> The only information I have on it is that it was made for Tandy by another unidentified company. The system was built into a desk and sold only at the Tandy Center store in Fort Worth. It had dual 8-inch floppies and sold for just under $10,000. There's a photo of one in the August 1986 issue of 80 Micro. --Mike Michael Nadeau Editorial Services 603-893-2379 ----- Original Message ----- From: "Owen Robertson" To: "Classic Computer Mailing List" Sent: Tuesday, November 20, 2001 1:05 PM Subject: Tandy 10 Info Wanted > Does anyone know anything about the Tandy 10? It was Tandy/Radio Shack's > larger microcomputer around the time the TRS-80 Model I came out. I found a > picture of one in a book, and got kind of interested in it (partially a > little home-town pride, being from Fort Worth). I can't find hardly any > information about it on the internet. > > Thanks, > Owen > > From Golemancd at aol.com Tue Nov 20 12:17:19 2001 From: Golemancd at aol.com (Golemancd@aol.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:23:42 2005 Subject: panasonic hhc Message-ID: <115.7f83d31.292bf82f@aol.com> hey thanks hans i pulled up a webb site on it mentioning the basic in rom wonder if if have that and how to program with it. i got about six chips with it. i cant find them right now but i think i may have thrown them out. silly me Joe. From Golemancd at aol.com Tue Nov 20 12:19:24 2001 From: Golemancd at aol.com (Golemancd@aol.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:23:42 2005 Subject: radio shack Message-ID: <29.1e09c533.292bf8ac@aol.com> am listening to a radio shack conference call from july on aol right now most of what they r talking about is parts sales and how that is there main business pride and joy. pillar of the business . hummm Joe From dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com Tue Nov 20 12:24:15 2001 From: dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com (Douglas Quebbeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:23:42 2005 Subject: Radio Shack abandons components Message-ID: <7A9BACCEF0171D4FB77019F5104CDD37225946@jeffserver.tegjeff.com> > Radio Shack has been slowly diminishing the individual parts and goin for > the glamour sales of consumer electronics mostly anymore. Won't be long and > the days of RS/Lafayette/Olson being in the nearby neighborhood strip malls > for those that want to "do it themselves" will be totally gone. Now you gone and done it. I'll be up all night reading my nearly 30-year old Lafayette catalogs tonight... I don't think any of the Olson catalogs survived. We never had a Lafayette store here, but we did have a Tape Centre that merged with Olson... -dq From dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com Tue Nov 20 12:26:08 2001 From: dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com (Douglas Quebbeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:23:42 2005 Subject: Radio Shack abandons components Message-ID: <7A9BACCEF0171D4FB77019F5104CDD37225947@jeffserver.tegjeff.com> > Digi-key always seemed to expensive for my tastes -- at least for > everything that I need, Mouser seems a lot less expensive & I can attest > that they have *very* helpful and quite clueful staff, but when you need > that *weird* part, JDR & Jameco seem to keep a lot of older stuff in stock... I love the way Digi-Key kits their parts. That plus, 7805 and 7812 regulators sold by Rat Shack have a tendency to pop quicker when presented with too-great a load... -dq From dmc!njc at opal.tseinc.com Tue Nov 20 12:44:54 2001 From: dmc!njc at opal.tseinc.com (dmc!njc@opal.tseinc.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:23:42 2005 Subject: Radio Shack abandons components In-Reply-To: <3BFA8D9C.35FDD510@jetnet.ab.ca> from "Ben Franchuk" at Nov 20, 2001 10:06:36 AM Message-ID: <200111201844.NAA04757@CC47532-A.ewndsr1.nj.home.com> Ben Franchuk > >Neil Cherry wrote: >> On the other note of piece meal components, I've found that with a lot of >> imagination one can take advantage of today's uControllers to build some >> of the coolest stuff. Processors cost ~$6, 3 pcbs (~2"x3") $50, add the >> components and a single hand built board can cost <$100. PLD's, FPGA, etc. >> etc.. Man do we live in interesting times (both good and bad). > >But one problem is that almost all real I/O is handled by hard to >find semi-custiom chips - PC motherboards come to mind. Many of the >older I/O devices are too slow to be of value. Ben Franchuk. This is, of course, too true. We can emulate them with the FPGA's but you have to understand how they work. I've been doing some creative work with alternate parts but I haven't had time to sit down with the really powerful chips. So little time so many projects. -- Linux Home Automation Neil Cherry ncherry@home.net http://members.home.net/ncherry (Text only) http://linuxha.sourceforge.net/ (SourceForge) http://hcs.sourceforge.net/ (HCS II) From jrice at texoma.net Tue Nov 20 13:06:49 2001 From: jrice at texoma.net (James L. Rice) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:23:42 2005 Subject: Radio Shack abandons components References: <20011120084534.F23837-100000@lepton.subatomix.com> <5.1.0.14.2.20011120124003.02c36630@mail.30below.com> Message-ID: <3BFAA9C9.2050709@texoma.net> Housing cost do vary a lot. My old house, now my ex-wifes house was about 20 years old, was 2700ft^2 on a large lot about 60 miles from Dallas, and cost $95k. My current house is 20 minutes from downtown Dallas on a lake shore, 3300ft^2 on a tiny lot and cost me $242k to build year before last. But if I was to move farther away I would burn up the savings on commuting costs. >> > On the other hand, the cost of living in small-town Oklahoma is one >> of the >> > cheapest in the USA. For a concrete example, in my old hometown, a >> nice >> > 3750 ft^2 house with a huge property sold for US$70K. This means less >> > money spent living, more money to spend on classiccmping, and >> greater ease >> > in finding room to put all of it. > > From edick at idcomm.com Tue Nov 20 13:30:28 2001 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:23:42 2005 Subject: Radio Shack abandons components References: <3BFA6144.2080309@texoma.net> <3BFA6468.90507@texoma.net> <035d01c171e5$e113b860$8a0101ac@ibm23xhr06> Message-ID: <001e01c171f9$cffdd9c0$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> TechAmerica is now RadioShack.com Dick ----- Original Message ----- From: "John Allain" To: Sent: Tuesday, November 20, 2001 10:07 AM Subject: Re: Radio Shack abandons components > > Re: Radio Shack abandons components > > Did TechAmerica (I think that was a RatShack > business) make it? That would be an OK way to > transition that business and enhance it at the same > time. Has everyone seen the catalog? More kit > builds than any I've seen in the past 20 years. > > > > Sorry for the typos. I broke a couple of fingers this week. > > Hard to type with fingers taped together (James L. Rice) > > I hope this wasn't from wedging heavy things into 19" racks!* > Best wishes in any case. > > John A. > Or from paired Alnico voice coil magnets. > Or from belts for 8" drives. > Or from ...... > > > From edick at idcomm.com Tue Nov 20 13:29:45 2001 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:23:42 2005 Subject: OT: paging MAC expert(s) --- What's a Performa? References: <3B55D7F383B0D31197D9009027541CBF1170DEAF@cmiexch1.cmi.itds.com> Message-ID: <001801c171f9$b631d8c0$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> It's the "quite a bit of extra work" that concerns me, as the boys at M$ haven't managed to do it right yet, and they've been at it to the tune of 100K man hours per year for a decade or so. Recording a bitwise image of what you receive from the disk may or may not give you all the information you need to recreate the files, since you may or may not know how the OS deals with them. What's more, in order to make a complete record of the drive, you have to record every bit it has on it and save them as a single unit, since you don't know what the drive does with the data you send it. That's the same reason, BTW, why the drive to which you write such an image must be an EXACT duplicate of the one from which the image was recorded. The second drive may otherwise claim to be identical but have a different number of sectors per physical track, use different mapping arrangements, etc, and, especially, have different bad blocks. Since you're going to send data that goes to where the drive sends it and not necessarily to the same physical location from which you got it because the drive may use different modulation, servo coding, etc, and therefore may have a different number of sectors per track in the region of the drive to which the data is sent, you may be disappointed with the results because IDE drives hide too many details from the end-user. Depending on the level of the interface you use, you may not be able to use image recording at all. Further, if you don't know absolutely for certain, what the drive does with the data you send it, and what the OS does to process data to and from the drive, you're on thin ice. I'd not recommend using image recording with a later generation IDE drive at all. Since SCSI is well established as to how it operates its data management, it yields more hope that you can process an image, though the vagaries of the OS are still a limiting factor. Image recording should work fine with MFM- and RLL-encoded drives, even on a track-by-track basis, and those offer some hope that one could substitute one sort of drive for another but hte ones which use BOTH CHS and LBA addressing won't tolerate the sort of operations to which an incrementally developed OS like Windows could create. Dick ----- Original Message ----- From: "Christopher Smith" To: Sent: Tuesday, November 20, 2001 10:07 AM Subject: RE: OT: paging MAC expert(s) --- What's a Performa? > > -----Original Message----- > > From: Richard Erlacher [mailto:edick@idcomm.com] > > > medium, and subsequently writing them back to a physically > > identical (not just > > logically identical) target, without consideration for > > Why not just logically identical, then? ... assuming, of course, the same > o/s would handle devices which are logically identical in an identical > manner. (This may not be a safe assumption) > > [snip] > > > The bitwise image transfer from disk=>tape can be done > > without knowledge of > > either the compression scheme or of the OS/file system used > > on it. It does > > require, however, that the entire image be recorded so it can > > be restored in its > > entirety. The result is that you can use a different OS to > > do that task though > > it's not required, and the penalty is that you have no access > > to the file data, > > though you could, I guess, go to the trouble of deciphering > > the bitwise image > > into a logical file system if one originally existed. You > > can do that under any > > circumstances, but it's a lot of trouble and requires you > > know a great deal > > about the low-level processes of converting the data on the > > orginal drive into > > the files comprising it. > > I think you've just summed up my previous point. That being, of course, > that if you can record a bit-by-bit image, you should also be able to > interpret this image (with quite a bit of extra work), and find the > component files. In fact, I'd add that depending on the amount of extra > work you're willing to do, you can likely restore the image in a "logical" > fashion to a volume that is completely different from the one on which it > originally resided. > > Regards, > > Chris > > > > Christopher Smith, Perl Developer > Amdocs - Champaign, IL > > /usr/bin/perl -e ' > print((~"\x95\xc4\xe3"^"Just Another Perl Hacker.")."\x08!\n"); > ' > > > From tothwolf at concentric.net Tue Nov 20 14:01:07 2001 From: tothwolf at concentric.net (Tothwolf) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:23:42 2005 Subject: 1771 chip brings $565 on EBAY? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Tue, 20 Nov 2001, Fred Cisin (XenoSoft) wrote: > > Well, I accidentally plugged the chip in backward when troubleshooting the > > floppy interface right after I got it. It turned out that the floppy > > ribbon was bad, just due to age I guess. I don't think the chip let out > > its magic smoke, but it certainly does not work now ;) > > A modest proposal: > Since the chip collectors don't REALLY care whether tha chip is actually > WORKING, ... > So long as the escape of the magic smoke didn't leave any marks, save the > electrically dead chips, and let the ship collectors have them. > > If the chip collectors would be willing to trade working common varieties > of chips for dead rarer colors, ... > C'mon guys, got a working common variety 1771 for Toth? Eh...my dead chip isn't in good shape, it got hot enough to almost totally erase its markings. I think quite a few of the pins got broken off after I tossed the dead chip in the junk box too. I just can't see someone wanting a dead 1771 w/ faint markings and broken pins...I guess it would look ok if it were glued to something and had some clear coat applied to the top to make the writing show up again ;P -Toth From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Tue Nov 20 14:56:39 2001 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (Ben Franchuk) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:23:42 2005 Subject: 1771 chip brings $565 on EBAY? References: Message-ID: <3BFAC387.C6361830@jetnet.ab.ca> "Fred Cisin (XenoSoft)" wrote: > Sellam: I checked through some of my junk, and couldn't find ANY dayglo > yellow 8080s. Would other dayglo colors work? How about the eerie green from a 8080 removed from Three Mile Island. :) Ben Franchuk. -- Live "Pre-historic Cpu's" -- and you thought they were extinct. www.jetnet.ab.ca/users/bfranchuk/index.html From edick at idcomm.com Tue Nov 20 14:02:12 2001 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:23:42 2005 Subject: 1771 floppy controller questions References: <000001c171f7$d0248680$6b7b7b7b@ajp> Message-ID: <005801c171fe$404cee60$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> Yeah ... I wasn't sure about that, though I know they sold their Intel-numbered version of the WD HDC chips (1010 and 2010). Didn't NEC also make a uPD371 that was for small tape drives? I know they made something on that order, but I never got to play with them. Dick ----- Original Message ----- From: "Allison" To: Sent: Tuesday, November 20, 2001 10:56 AM Subject: Re: 1771 floppy controller questions > Intel never did a 1771 compatable chip. They did do the 8271 that was > FM only but totally incompatable with the 1771 socket. > > The second source that did ship parts is SMC. The other supplier was > National Semi. > > NEC Started with the D372, that was a hard/soft sector single density > controller that did find it's way into the first version of the IMSAI floppy > controller. > > Allison > > -----Original Message----- > From: Richard Erlacher > To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org > Date: Tuesday, November 20, 2001 12:05 PM > Subject: Re: 1771 floppy controller questions > > > >I don't know right offhand of any second sources, except for Intel, which > did, > >IIRC, make a 1771-equivalent/compatible for a time. They went the NEC > route > >when MFM became popular, however. > > > >WD also made a 1781 which was M2FM capable, and, as some folks will tell > you, > >THAT's a hard modulation scheme to support. > > > >As I mentioned before, it might be worthwhile to communicate with Tony > Duell > >regarding the expansion interface, as he recently admitted he'd actually > made > >the model-1 disk interface work as it was designed to work. A lot of > folks > >couldn't get reasonable reliability until they bought a third-party > enhancment > >for the floppy interface. > > > >Dick > > > >----- Original Message ----- > >From: "Tothwolf" > >To: > >Sent: Tuesday, November 20, 2001 8:51 AM > >Subject: Re: 1771 floppy controller questions > > > > > >> On Tue, 20 Nov 2001, Richard Erlacher wrote: > >> > From: "Tothwolf" > >> > > On Tue, 20 Nov 2001, Richard Erlacher wrote: > >> > > > >> > > > What is it that makes you believe that the 1771 s the problem? > >> > > > >> > > Well, I accidentally plugged the chip in backward when > troubleshooting the > >> > > floppy interface right after I got it. It turned out that the floppy > >> > > ribbon was bad, just due to age I guess. I don't think the chip let > out > >> > > its magic smoke, but it certainly does not work now ;) > >> > > >> > OK ... I can believe you'd reach that conclusion from what you > describe. > >I've > >> > done that on one of those "late nights" on more than one occasion. > It's > >> > reasonable to assume the part is toast, given that there are several > >supplies, > >> > each of which has been applied to the wrong pins. Too bad ... > >> > >> I'm really not too worried about it, since the 1771 does seem to be > >> available and I have the technical reference book for the expansion > >> interface. I don't think there are any unusual or proprietary chips used > >> in the expansion interface with the exception of the floppy controller. > If > >> it took out any other logic chips with it, I should be able to replace > >> those easily. > >> > >> It appears that my local vendor may have just assumed the part he has in > >> stock is a National, since I can't find any references to National ever > >> manufacturing a 1771, and the -B01 is a WD suffix. > >> > >> -Toth > >> > >> > > > > From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Tue Nov 20 15:22:21 2001 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (Allison) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:23:42 2005 Subject: 1771 floppy controller questions Message-ID: <001c01c17209$738431c0$6b7b7b7b@ajp> Yes, I have a few of them. the part is nearly the same as the 372 with some minor tweeks and differences. Allison -----Original Message----- From: Richard Erlacher To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org Date: Tuesday, November 20, 2001 3:27 PM Subject: Re: 1771 floppy controller questions >Yeah ... I wasn't sure about that, though I know they sold their Intel-numbered >version of the WD HDC chips (1010 and 2010). > >Didn't NEC also make a uPD371 that was for small tape drives? I know they made >something on that order, but I never got to play with them. > >Dick > >----- Original Message ----- >From: "Allison" >To: >Sent: Tuesday, November 20, 2001 10:56 AM >Subject: Re: 1771 floppy controller questions > > >> Intel never did a 1771 compatable chip. They did do the 8271 that was >> FM only but totally incompatable with the 1771 socket. >> >> The second source that did ship parts is SMC. The other supplier was >> National Semi. >> >> NEC Started with the D372, that was a hard/soft sector single density >> controller that did find it's way into the first version of the IMSAI floppy >> controller. >> >> Allison >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: Richard Erlacher >> To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org >> Date: Tuesday, November 20, 2001 12:05 PM >> Subject: Re: 1771 floppy controller questions >> >> >> >I don't know right offhand of any second sources, except for Intel, which >> did, >> >IIRC, make a 1771-equivalent/compatible for a time. They went the NEC >> route >> >when MFM became popular, however. >> > >> >WD also made a 1781 which was M2FM capable, and, as some folks will tell >> you, >> >THAT's a hard modulation scheme to support. >> > >> >As I mentioned before, it might be worthwhile to communicate with Tony >> Duell >> >regarding the expansion interface, as he recently admitted he'd actually >> made >> >the model-1 disk interface work as it was designed to work. A lot of >> folks >> >couldn't get reasonable reliability until they bought a third-party >> enhancment >> >for the floppy interface. >> > >> >Dick >> > >> >----- Original Message ----- >> >From: "Tothwolf" >> >To: >> >Sent: Tuesday, November 20, 2001 8:51 AM >> >Subject: Re: 1771 floppy controller questions >> > >> > >> >> On Tue, 20 Nov 2001, Richard Erlacher wrote: >> >> > From: "Tothwolf" >> >> > > On Tue, 20 Nov 2001, Richard Erlacher wrote: >> >> > > >> >> > > > What is it that makes you believe that the 1771 s the problem? >> >> > > >> >> > > Well, I accidentally plugged the chip in backward when >> troubleshooting the >> >> > > floppy interface right after I got it. It turned out that the floppy >> >> > > ribbon was bad, just due to age I guess. I don't think the chip let >> out >> >> > > its magic smoke, but it certainly does not work now ;) >> >> > >> >> > OK ... I can believe you'd reach that conclusion from what you >> describe. >> >I've >> >> > done that on one of those "late nights" on more than one occasion. >> It's >> >> > reasonable to assume the part is toast, given that there are several >> >supplies, >> >> > each of which has been applied to the wrong pins. Too bad ... >> >> >> >> I'm really not too worried about it, since the 1771 does seem to be >> >> available and I have the technical reference book for the expansion >> >> interface. I don't think there are any unusual or proprietary chips used >> >> in the expansion interface with the exception of the floppy controller. >> If >> >> it took out any other logic chips with it, I should be able to replace >> >> those easily. >> >> >> >> It appears that my local vendor may have just assumed the part he has in >> >> stock is a National, since I can't find any references to National ever >> >> manufacturing a 1771, and the -B01 is a WD suffix. >> >> >> >> -Toth >> >> >> >> >> > >> >> > > From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Nov 20 17:58:46 2001 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:23:42 2005 Subject: 1771 floppy controller questions In-Reply-To: from "Tothwolf" at Nov 20, 1 00:39:50 am Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1113 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20011120/f0361a73/attachment.ksh From greg at cosc.canterbury.ac.nz Tue Nov 20 18:47:34 2001 From: greg at cosc.canterbury.ac.nz (Greg Ewing) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:23:42 2005 Subject: 1771 floppy controller questions In-Reply-To: <001f01c171d5$7bf7e1a0$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> Message-ID: <200111210047.NAA14189@s454.cosc.canterbury.ac.nz> Richard Erlacher wrote (concerning plugging a 1771 in backwards): > I've done that on one of those "late nights" on more than one > occasion. I discovered a more creative way to destroy a 1771 once. It was on a highly personalised system based on a Dick Smith Super 80 (not System 80!) for which I had built my own disk controller. A friend of mine was attempting to build a colour graphics display, and I had the prototype connected between my system and a TV (via RF). There was a lot of herringbone stuff on the screen, and I wondered whether hash from the computer was getting into the RF modulator through the power supply, so I decided to try filtering it with an inductor, to wit, one winding of an old audio output transformer that I had lying about. It didn't help, so I disconnected it. With the power on. The disk drive head went clunk, and the motor turned on. And stayed on. Permanently. At that point I realised that I had neglected to anticipate the effects of inductive kickback. I couldn't get a 1771 to replace it with at the time, so I got a 1791, which looked like a better part anyway (capable of double density [1]) so I wasn't unhappy about having to make a few changes to the circuitry, such as devising an external data separator. More of a challenge was when I discovered that, of the 4 kinds of data mark supported by the 1771, the 1791 could only read two of them. And, of course, the one I had chosen to use (in my unique home-brewed DOS) was one of the ones no longer supported, so I couldn't read any of my disks! Recovering from that situation was an interesting exercise... Footnotes: [1] I never made use of it, though, since my 2MHz Z80 couldn't keep up with feeding the data buffer fast enough. :-( Greg Ewing, Computer Science Dept, +--------------------------------------+ University of Canterbury, | A citizen of NewZealandCorp, a | Christchurch, New Zealand | wholly-owned subsidiary of USA Inc. | greg@cosc.canterbury.ac.nz +--------------------------------------+ From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Nov 20 17:50:07 2001 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:23:42 2005 Subject: Dead Intel MDS controller board In-Reply-To: <3BF9B769.7A7B0C21@mich.com> from "Dave Mabry" at Nov 19, 1 08:52:41 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 2719 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20011120/5e371bf1/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Nov 20 17:52:05 2001 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:23:42 2005 Subject: RA60 drives anywhere? And stuff... In-Reply-To: <3BF9B9B2.2020603@aurora.regenstrief.org> from "Gunther Schadow" at Nov 19, 1 09:02:26 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 635 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20011120/674bf6a5/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Nov 20 17:55:19 2001 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:23:42 2005 Subject: RA60 drives anywhere? And stuff... In-Reply-To: <20011120001351.J22748-100000@lepton.subatomix.com> from "Jeffrey S. Sharp" at Nov 20, 1 00:14:22 am Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 523 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20011120/6bcdfb5e/attachment.ksh From jss at subatomix.com Tue Nov 20 23:54:49 2001 From: jss at subatomix.com (Jeffrey S. Sharp) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:23:42 2005 Subject: RA60 drives anywhere? And stuff... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20011120235152.A24911-100000@lepton.subatomix.com> On Tue, 20 Nov 2001, Tony Duell wrote: > Last time I was in a PC shop, they were selling 'line printer > paper'... What was it? Poor-ish quality A4 sheets, like you'd use in > a laser printer or copier. Not fanfold, not sproketed, certainly not > greenbar. I bought a box of wide, greenbar paper at my local OfficeMax. They had quite a few boxes in inventory. -- Jeffrey S. Sharp jss@subatomix.com From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Nov 20 18:08:55 2001 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:23:42 2005 Subject: Interesting find In-Reply-To: <20011120005251.F22748-100000@lepton.subatomix.com> from "Jeffrey S. Sharp" at Nov 20, 1 01:01:31 am Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 2212 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20011121/21aefeb0/attachment.ksh From donm at cts.com Tue Nov 20 19:08:44 2001 From: donm at cts.com (Don Maslin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:23:42 2005 Subject: Interesting find In-Reply-To: <20011120005251.F22748-100000@lepton.subatomix.com> Message-ID: On Tue, 20 Nov 2001, Jeffrey S. Sharp wrote: > I'm not much of a calculator collector, but the following seems to be much > more than a mere calculator. I've located an HP 9825 for $5 at a local > surplus store. I think I'll go purchase it tomorrow. > > -- > Jeffrey S. Sharp > jss@subatomix.com In the normal scheme of things, you should have bought it yesterday :) - don From jss at subatomix.com Wed Nov 21 00:10:00 2001 From: jss at subatomix.com (Jeffrey S. Sharp) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:23:42 2005 Subject: Interesting find In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20011121000455.Y24911-100000@lepton.subatomix.com> On Tue, 20 Nov 2001, Don Maslin wrote: > On Tue, 20 Nov 2001, Jeffrey S. Sharp wrote: > > > HP 9825 for $5 [...] I think I'll go purchase it tomorrow. > > In the normal scheme of things, you should have bought it yesterday :) Well, things just "came up" today that had to take priority. I'll get around to it as my first order of business tomorrow morning. Besides, it will still get done "tomorrow", as I originally said. :) -- Jeffrey S. Sharp jss@subatomix.com From donm at cts.com Wed Nov 21 00:36:02 2001 From: donm at cts.com (Don Maslin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:23:42 2005 Subject: Interesting find In-Reply-To: <20011121000455.Y24911-100000@lepton.subatomix.com> Message-ID: On Wed, 21 Nov 2001, Jeffrey S. Sharp wrote: > On Tue, 20 Nov 2001, Don Maslin wrote: > > > On Tue, 20 Nov 2001, Jeffrey S. Sharp wrote: > > > > > HP 9825 for $5 [...] I think I'll go purchase it tomorrow. > > > > In the normal scheme of things, you should have bought it yesterday :) > > Well, things just "came up" today that had to take priority. I'll get > around to it as my first order of business tomorrow morning. > > Besides, it will still get done "tomorrow", as I originally said. :) If it is still there - which was the thrust of my comment. - don > -- > Jeffrey S. Sharp > jss@subatomix.com > > From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Nov 20 19:50:42 2001 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:23:42 2005 Subject: Interesting find In-Reply-To: from "Sellam Ismail" at Nov 20, 1 09:21:20 am Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 259 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20011121/184b2742/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Nov 20 18:12:06 2001 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:23:42 2005 Subject: PDP-8 backplane -- was Re: PDP-8 case In-Reply-To: <10111200831.ZM15862@mindy.dunnington.u-net.com> from "Pete Turnbull" at Nov 20, 1 08:31:18 am Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1121 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20011121/072f74f4/attachment.ksh From vcf at vintage.org Tue Nov 20 20:48:19 2001 From: vcf at vintage.org (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:23:42 2005 Subject: HardCard driver disks Message-ID: I came across a stash of HardCard driver diskettes today (360K 5.25"). They say on the label that they are for the 20MB version, but I'm sure they would work on the 40MB model as well. Anyhoo, I have three spare copies if anyone is interested. One to each respondent. E-mail me your address and I'll get it out to you. Don't worry about mailing costs. Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org * Old computing resources for business and academia at www.VintageTech.com * From dancohoe at oxford.net Tue Nov 20 21:39:52 2001 From: dancohoe at oxford.net (Dan Cohoe) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:23:42 2005 Subject: HardCard driver disks References: Message-ID: <3BFB2208.E1D80B3E@oxford.net> Vintage Computer Festival wrote: > > I came across a stash of HardCard driver diskettes today (360K 5.25"). > They say on the label that they are for the 20MB version, but I'm sure > they would work on the 40MB model as well. > > Anyhoo, I have three spare copies if anyone is interested. One to each > respondent. E-mail me your address and I'll get it out to you. Don't > worry about mailing costs. > > Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ > International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org > > * Old computing resources for business and academia at www.VintageTech.com * Hi Sellam, I just ran across two brand new 40 Meg Hardcards about a month ago so could use one of these diskettes if still available and if you think they will use the same drivers. Thanks, Dan Cohoe R.R # 2, Burgessville, Ontario Canada N0J 1C0 From zaft at azstarnet.com Tue Nov 20 22:11:23 2001 From: zaft at azstarnet.com (Gordon C. Zaft) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:23:42 2005 Subject: SCB68430 DMA controller data sheets etc. In-Reply-To: <001701c1715e$9cf2b1e0$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> References: <4.3.2.7.2.20011119151244.00b1d0c8@mail.azstarnet.com> Message-ID: <4.3.2.7.2.20011120211045.028e6ec0@pop.azstarnet.com> There was nothing on this part on the Philips website, however I got a datasheet from www.partsminer.com. GZ At 05:59 PM 11/19/2001 -0700, you wrote: >That's a SIGNETICS part number and PHILIPS bought them in '89-'90 timeframe. >Have you tried the Philips web site? > >Dick > >----- Original Message ----- >From: "Gordon Zaft" >To: >Sent: Monday, November 19, 2001 3:13 PM >Subject: SCB68430 DMA controller data sheets etc. > > > > > > Anyone know of a source for data sheets and app notes for the SCB68430 DMA > > controller? I couldn't find anything via Google. > > Gordon Zaft zaft@azstarnet.com From edick at idcomm.com Tue Nov 20 23:22:58 2001 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:23:42 2005 Subject: SCB68430 DMA controller data sheets etc. References: <4.3.2.7.2.20011119151244.00b1d0c8@mail.azstarnet.com> <4.3.2.7.2.20011120211045.028e6ec0@pop.azstarnet.com> Message-ID: <005701c1724c$956e4f80$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> Sadly, the freetradezone/partsminer are starting to charge a ~$300 monthly fee for their service, so stock up on datasheet files while you can. Dick ----- Original Message ----- From: "Gordon C. Zaft" To: Sent: Tuesday, November 20, 2001 9:11 PM Subject: Re: SCB68430 DMA controller data sheets etc. > > There was nothing on this part on the Philips website, however I > got a datasheet from www.partsminer.com. > > GZ > At 05:59 PM 11/19/2001 -0700, you wrote: > >That's a SIGNETICS part number and PHILIPS bought them in '89-'90 timeframe. > >Have you tried the Philips web site? > > > >Dick > > > >----- Original Message ----- > >From: "Gordon Zaft" > >To: > >Sent: Monday, November 19, 2001 3:13 PM > >Subject: SCB68430 DMA controller data sheets etc. > > > > > > > > > > Anyone know of a source for data sheets and app notes for the SCB68430 DMA > > > controller? I couldn't find anything via Google. > > > > > > Gordon Zaft > zaft@azstarnet.com > > From optimus at canit.se Wed Nov 21 02:02:32 2001 From: optimus at canit.se (Iggy Drougge) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:23:42 2005 Subject: FreeTradeZone site moving to subscription-only for older parts In-Reply-To: <9011A52E011ED311B4280004AC1BA615014672BB@yalepress3.unipress.yale.edu> Message-ID: <285.725T1600T5424845optimus@canit.se> David Woyciesjes skrev: >Maybe runs a full-tilt website crawler/archiver program? The kind that grabs >whetever pages you tell it, for offline reading, or some such thing? Wget. -- En ligne avec Thor 2.6a. Amiga 4000/040 25MHz/64MB/20GB RetinaBLTZ3/VLab/FastlaneZ3/Ariadne/Toccata From curt at atari-history.com Tue Nov 20 17:12:24 2001 From: curt at atari-history.com (Curt Vendel) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:23:42 2005 Subject: Tandy 10 Info Wanted References: <160e01c171f2$138b38c0$0b01a8c0@ValuedCustomer> Message-ID: <001501c17218$d2f97570$0a00a8c0@cvendel> I remember those! I used to work for a Radio Shack Computer Center and each night we would enter all of the sales slips into the system and then it would dial into Fort Worth and transmit that days sales and inventory control, Radio shack did a superb job of tracking store sales figures and automatically restocking, all this and they used their own hardware which was also a strange thing to see as most companies were selling computer equipment, yet using other company equipment for day to day operations. Ahhh the good old TRS80 days..... damn I'm feeling nostalgic, anybody have a Model III or IV to sell/trade? Curt ----- Original Message ----- From: "Michael Nadeau" To: Sent: Tuesday, November 20, 2001 1:34 PM Subject: Re: Tandy 10 Info Wanted > The only information I have on it is that it was made for Tandy by another > unidentified company. The system was built into a desk and sold only at the > Tandy Center store in Fort Worth. It had dual 8-inch floppies and sold for > just under $10,000. There's a photo of one in the August 1986 issue of 80 > Micro. > > --Mike > > Michael Nadeau > Editorial Services > 603-893-2379 > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Owen Robertson" > To: "Classic Computer Mailing List" > Sent: Tuesday, November 20, 2001 1:05 PM > Subject: Tandy 10 Info Wanted > > > > Does anyone know anything about the Tandy 10? It was Tandy/Radio Shack's > > larger microcomputer around the time the TRS-80 Model I came out. I found > a > > picture of one in a book, and got kind of interested in it (partially a > > little home-town pride, being from Fort Worth). I can't find hardly any > > information about it on the internet. > > > > Thanks, > > Owen > > > > > From edick at idcomm.com Tue Nov 20 13:51:38 2001 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:23:42 2005 Subject: radio shack References: <29.1e09c533.292bf8ac@aol.com> Message-ID: <004601c171fc$c4d56060$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> Back when the US was the only country manufacturing flat panel displays, heavily depending on GOV support, a GOV investigation panel contacted an exec at HP regarding their need for flat panel (LCD) display devices. (this was in the late '70's, IIRC) What wast told to the GOV investigator was that HP did not use LCD or flat-panel display technology then, nor would they ever do so, as they were a leading maker of LED display products. Within 6 weeks, HP started using LCD's in their battery-operated calculators and on an entire line of laboratory devices. Unfortunately, the flat-panel technology was not exploited in the US until the Japanese started offering them to the US. Another example of senior management not knowing what's going on. Clearly this is another case of the same sort of thing. The retail space is certainly worth more than what it's bringing in as parts sales these days. They still don't sell tools for handling surface mount devices, nor do they sell the devices, and nearly nothing uses the old DIP packages any longer. I doubt that parts sales have been a "pillar of the business" for over a decade, since it was nearly impossible to find out what a part really was, in terms of industry standard part number. Moreover, it's a famous problem getting a part at Radio Shack by asking for a "74LS244" even though every store had them in a blister pack on the rack. That suggests that they really didn't want that business anyway. Dick ----- Original Message ----- From: To: Sent: Tuesday, November 20, 2001 11:19 AM Subject: radio shack > am listening to a radio shack conference call from july on aol right now > most of what they r talking about is parts sales and how that is there main > business pride and joy. pillar of the business . > > hummm > Joe > > From edick at idcomm.com Tue Nov 20 13:59:15 2001 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:23:42 2005 Subject: Radio Shack abandons components References: <200111201844.NAA04757@CC47532-A.ewndsr1.nj.home.com> Message-ID: <005001c171fd$d6080940$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> If you want to translate a schematic from the old TTL SSI/MSI devices to a programmable device in a dense package, it's much more likely to happen easily in a CPLD than an FPGA, though people keep telling me that FPGA's provide more logic at lower cost. I agree that it's more difficult to make it happen in FPGA, but for a circuit the size of a Multibus-1 or (somewhat smaller) S-100 board, a moderately priced CPLD should get the job done pretty well, though they used enough one-shots to complicate the job considerably. With device pin-pitch at 20-25 mils, (actually the metric equivalent) it's unlikely one will hand wire anything with them. Therefore one's limited to using PCB mounted parts. Since disposal of PCB-related materials is so costly these days, it's unlikely one will want to do that at home. What this leaves is a need for an adapter for some fairly standard-packaged-CPLD and/or FPGA, and then simply work within the confines of what one can have made up by way of an adapter from that package to something that one can hand-wire or wire-wrap. Dick ----- Original Message ----- From: To: Sent: Tuesday, November 20, 2001 11:44 AM Subject: Re: Radio Shack abandons components > Ben Franchuk > > > >Neil Cherry wrote: > >> On the other note of piece meal components, I've found that with a lot of > >> imagination one can take advantage of today's uControllers to build some > >> of the coolest stuff. Processors cost ~$6, 3 pcbs (~2"x3") $50, add the > >> components and a single hand built board can cost <$100. PLD's, FPGA, etc. > >> etc.. Man do we live in interesting times (both good and bad). > > > > >But one problem is that almost all real I/O is handled by hard to > >find semi-custiom chips - PC motherboards come to mind. Many of the > >older I/O devices are too slow to be of value. Ben Franchuk. > > This is, of course, too true. We can emulate them with the FPGA's but > you have to understand how they work. I've been doing some creative > work with alternate parts but I haven't had time to sit down with the > really powerful chips. So little time so many projects. > > -- > Linux Home Automation Neil Cherry ncherry@home.net > http://members.home.net/ncherry (Text only) > http://linuxha.sourceforge.net/ (SourceForge) > http://hcs.sourceforge.net/ (HCS II) > > From dmc!njc at opal.tseinc.com Tue Nov 20 14:48:41 2001 From: dmc!njc at opal.tseinc.com (dmc!njc@opal.tseinc.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:23:42 2005 Subject: Radio Shack abandons components In-Reply-To: <005001c171fd$d6080940$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> from "Richard Erlacher" at Nov 20, 2001 12:59:15 PM Message-ID: <200111202048.PAA05415@CC47532-A.ewndsr1.nj.home.com> Richard Erlacher > >If you want to translate a schematic from the old TTL SSI/MSI devices to a >programmable device in a dense package, it's much more likely to happen easily >in a CPLD than an FPGA, though people keep telling me that FPGA's provide more >logic at lower cost. I agree that it's more difficult to make it happen in >FPGA, but for a circuit the size of a Multibus-1 or (somewhat smaller) S-100 >board, a moderately priced CPLD should get the job done pretty well, though they >used enough one-shots to complicate the job considerably. > >With device pin-pitch at 20-25 mils, (actually the metric equivalent) it's >unlikely one will hand wire anything with them. Therefore one's limited to >using PCB mounted parts. Since disposal of PCB-related materials is so costly >these days, it's unlikely one will want to do that at home. What this leaves is >a need for an adapter for some fairly standard-packaged-CPLD and/or FPGA, and >then simply work within the confines of what one can have made up by way of an >adapter from that package to something that one can hand-wire or wire-wrap. Actually I'm about to attempt to learn hwo to do just that, hand solder qfp chips to a carrier board with DIP header endings. I have an eZ80 that I want to brain transplant into a spare HCS II (uses a Z180). I've checked out Don Lancasters page on how to build your own smt hot air iron and may attempt it this winter. I'll start by working on low cost parts and work up from there. -- Linux Home Automation Neil Cherry ncherry@home.net http://members.home.net/ncherry (Text only) http://linuxha.sourceforge.net/ (SourceForge) http://hcs.sourceforge.net/ (HCS II) From pcw at mesanet.com Tue Nov 20 15:35:47 2001 From: pcw at mesanet.com (Peter C. Wallace) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:23:42 2005 Subject: Radio Shack abandons components In-Reply-To: <200111202048.PAA05415@CC47532-A.ewndsr1.nj.home.com> Message-ID: On Tue, 20 Nov 2001 dmc!njc@opal.tseinc.com wrote: > Richard Erlacher > > > >If you want to translate a schematic from the old TTL SSI/MSI devices to a > >programmable device in a dense package, it's much more likely to happen easily > >in a CPLD than an FPGA, though people keep telling me that FPGA's provide more > >logic at lower cost. I agree that it's more difficult to make it happen in > >FPGA, but for a circuit the size of a Multibus-1 or (somewhat smaller) S-100 > >board, a moderately priced CPLD should get the job done pretty well, though they > >used enough one-shots to complicate the job considerably. > > > >With device pin-pitch at 20-25 mils, (actually the metric equivalent) it's > >unlikely one will hand wire anything with them. Therefore one's limited to > >using PCB mounted parts. Since disposal of PCB-related materials is so costly > >these days, it's unlikely one will want to do that at home. What this leaves is > >a need for an adapter for some fairly standard-packaged-CPLD and/or FPGA, and > >then simply work within the confines of what one can have made up by way of an > >adapter from that package to something that one can hand-wire or wire-wrap. > > Actually I'm about to attempt to learn hwo to do just that, hand > solder qfp chips to a carrier board with DIP header endings. I have an > eZ80 that I want to brain transplant into a spare HCS II (uses a > Z180). I've checked out Don Lancasters page on how to build your own > smt hot air iron and may attempt it this winter. I'll start by working > on low cost parts and work up from there. Actually 25 or 20 mil QFP stuff is easy to do with just a soldering iron, the secret is to make surface tension do the work. This requires large amounts of rosin flux... I just solder the whole mess (all the leads shorted together) and then using adequate flux, and tilting the board, drain the excess solder off by dragging the iron along the pins. Done it hundreds of times - works like a charm, but sometimes you have to use solder wick to unshort the last 2 pins on each side. Hot air works too but you have to be careful not to burn the PCB (if using a standard hand held hot air gun). I've used a standard hot air gun to solder 388 and 516 pin BGA stuff too. Not that hard but you have to make a jig to hold the BGA part in place (with a little (.007 maybe) slop). I make the jig from 4 pieces of scrap circuit board material tack soldered to the proto board. Surface tension will pull the part into place when all the solder melts. You can tell when the solder melts because the BGA chip will sink about 10 mils (which is one of the reasons that the jig cannot be too tight) I wouldn't solder a very valuble BGA part by hand this way but I have a 70% or so success rate which is ok for protos. When soldering BGA parts on a proto, solder the BGA part first, so that you can sight down all the rows of solder balls to make sure that you dont have a short... > > -- > Linux Home Automation Neil Cherry ncherry@home.net > http://members.home.net/ncherry (Text only) > http://linuxha.sourceforge.net/ (SourceForge) > http://hcs.sourceforge.net/ (HCS II) > Peter Wallace From jhellige at earthlink.net Tue Nov 20 14:19:40 2001 From: jhellige at earthlink.net (Jeff Hellige) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:23:43 2005 Subject: Radio Shack abandons components In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: >I live just north of Fort Worth, and the big Radio Shack "Outlet Store". >They have a lot of discontinued things, and a lot of components. I assume >they'll always have them. I've noticed that even the 'bargain bin' area that used to be tucked back in one corner of most stores seems to be gone as well. Used to be able to get some cool older discontinued stuff from that section, including Model 2000 stuff. Unfortunately I also passed on a portable disk drive in the same area at one point. Jeff -- Home of the TRS-80 Model 2000 FAQ File http://www.cchaven.com http://www.geocities.com/siliconvalley/lakes/6757 From mythtech at Mac.com Tue Nov 20 15:45:11 2001 From: mythtech at Mac.com (Chris) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:23:43 2005 Subject: Radio Shack abandons components Message-ID: <200111202145.PAA33600@opal.tseinc.com> > I've noticed that even the 'bargain bin' area that used to be >tucked back in one corner of most stores seems to be gone as well. >Used to be able to get some cool older discontinued stuff from that >section, including Model 2000 stuff. Unfortunately I also passed on >a portable disk drive in the same area at one point. One of the shacks near me still has that bin every year after christmas. It is nothing more than a big cardboard box full of broken or unpackaged items from the year. They also put all the unsold, or returned xmas gifts with it (which makes up a bulk of it, so is why I assume it shows up after xmas every year). -chris From jhellige at earthlink.net Tue Nov 20 16:26:53 2001 From: jhellige at earthlink.net (Jeff Hellige) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:23:43 2005 Subject: Radio Shack abandons components In-Reply-To: <200111202145.PAA33600@opal.tseinc.com> References: <200111202145.PAA33600@opal.tseinc.com> Message-ID: >One of the shacks near me still has that bin every year after christmas. >It is nothing more than a big cardboard box full of broken or unpackaged >items from the year. They also put all the unsold, or returned xmas gifts >with it (which makes up a bulk of it, so is why I assume it shows up >after xmas every year). The one's that I'm talking about though weren't just returned or damaged junk. I used to see them with quite a bit of computer stuff, mostly stock leftovers, such as cables, cards, and tech manuals. Once Tandy sold their computer stuff to AST, this type of stuff pretty much disappeared as time went by and forgotten stock was disposed of. There used to be some good bargains to be had in the 'used' sections of the ComputerCity stores as well. Jeff -- Home of the TRS-80 Model 2000 FAQ File http://www.cchaven.com http://www.geocities.com/siliconvalley/lakes/6757 From fernande at internet1.net Tue Nov 20 23:29:58 2001 From: fernande at internet1.net (Chad Fernandez) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:23:43 2005 Subject: Radio Shack abandons components References: <200111202145.PAA33600@opal.tseinc.com> Message-ID: <3BFB3BD6.E455FB03@internet1.net> I thought Tandy sold the computer division to Compaq? Chad Fernandez Michigan, USA Jeff Hellige wrote: > The one's that I'm talking about though weren't just returned > or damaged junk. I used to see them with quite a bit of computer > stuff, mostly stock leftovers, such as cables, cards, and tech > manuals. Once Tandy sold their computer stuff to AST, this type of > stuff pretty much disappeared as time went by and forgotten stock was > disposed of. There used to be some good bargains to be had in the > 'used' sections of the ComputerCity stores as well. > > Jeff From optimus at canit.se Wed Nov 21 02:41:48 2001 From: optimus at canit.se (Iggy Drougge) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:23:43 2005 Subject: Radio Shack abandons components In-Reply-To: <3BFB3BD6.E455FB03@internet1.net> Message-ID: <271.725T2400T5815589optimus@canit.se> Chad Fernandez skrev: >I thought Tandy sold the computer division to Compaq? You're probably thinking of Tandon. -- En ligne avec Thor 2.6a. G? med i SUGA, Swedish Usergroup of Amiga! WWW: http://swedish.usergroup.amiga.tm/ BBS: 08-6582572, telnet://sua.ath.cx:42512 From optimus at canit.se Tue Nov 20 01:21:13 2001 From: optimus at canit.se (Iggy Drougge) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:23:43 2005 Subject: Trinary circuits Message-ID: <240.724T650T5014739optimus@canit.se> This might interest some of the perverts out there: http://www.trinary.cc/ -- En ligne avec Thor 2.6a. There are two major products that come from Berkeley: LSD and UNIX. We don't believe this to be a coincidence. -- Jeremy S. Anderson From optimus at canit.se Tue Nov 20 01:37:57 2001 From: optimus at canit.se (Iggy Drougge) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:23:43 2005 Subject: Intel C8080A chip brings $565 on EBAY In-Reply-To: <01Nov19.110754est.119248@gateway.mediacen.navy.mil> Message-ID: <1493.724T2850T5176831optimus@canit.se> Jeff Hellige skrev: >>Now, looking at old computer chips can be fun for a while, but they are >>essentially worthless, unless you are of an inclination similar to Tony's >>and have got an electron microscope. They are meant to run computers, not to >>sit there and do nothing. I have the same stance on people who collect >>computers and game just for keeping them, instead of using them. > I really don't see the need for the name calling though as, >regardless of motivation, all collectors are helping to preserve >items that would otherwise likely get tossed as trash. We all have >different interests, motivations and goals but the end result is very >much the same. In the future, one of us may need the assistance of >one of these chip collectors in order to aquire some obscure chip we >can't find anywhere else. But that's what worries me. Why would a person who's looking to get a computer up and running be at the mercy of people who pay hundreds and hundreds of dollars for chips only for their cosmetic qualities. They obviously have different motivations than computer collectors. -- En ligne avec Thor 2.6a. I installed 7.6.1 on my Color Classic too. It has 6mb ram now, and no FPU yet. Things really slowed down when I installed the Appearance extention and control panel. But now the GUI is OS8ish! ;) That little creep is so cute, I'll probably leave instructions to have it made my urn. It'll hold my ashes, and still continue to function as a computer ;) iVan From stanb at dial.pipex.com Tue Nov 20 02:55:17 2001 From: stanb at dial.pipex.com (Stan Barr) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:23:43 2005 Subject: OT: paging MAC expert(s) --- What's a Performa? In-Reply-To: Your message of "Mon, 19 Nov 2001 14:33:42 MST." <001801c17141$dca07240$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> Message-ID: <200111200855.IAA29953@citadel.metropolis.local> > Well, I hope it's documented. At least there's a NETSCRAPE for DUMMIES book I > can give someone for Christmas. How difficult is it to learn this iCab? I > don't want to have to learn it in order to teach someone else. Is it pretty > intuitive? (that way I can answer questions on the phone and have some chance > of guessing right.) It works pretty much the same as Netscape, just looks a bit different, (especially if you install alternave buttons etc.) - nothing you can't easily understand from a litle Netscape experience. Now Cyberdog - that *was* different ;-) -- Cheers, Stan Barr stanb@dial.pipex.com The future was never like this! From edick at idcomm.com Tue Nov 20 16:28:30 2001 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:23:43 2005 Subject: OT: paging MAC expert(s) --- What's a Performa? References: <200111200855.IAA29953@citadel.metropolis.local> Message-ID: <002b01c17212$aeb59c80$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> Well, that's good, but the ultimate end user has no Netscape experience, and I've got not even enough to be dangerous. I never liked Nestcape because you had to buy that %$#@! Trumpet Winsock to make it work, and that crapped up a lot of other Windows functions. Nevertheless, I want to take a look at iCab. If it works easily enough and lives in considerably less memory than Netscape, I'm all for it! Dick ----- Original Message ----- From: "Stan Barr" To: Sent: Tuesday, November 20, 2001 1:55 AM Subject: Re: OT: paging MAC expert(s) --- What's a Performa? > > Well, I hope it's documented. At least there's a NETSCRAPE for DUMMIES book I > > can give someone for Christmas. How difficult is it to learn this iCab? I > > don't want to have to learn it in order to teach someone else. Is it pretty > > intuitive? (that way I can answer questions on the phone and have some chance > > of guessing right.) > > It works pretty much the same as Netscape, just looks a bit different, > (especially if you install alternave buttons etc.) - nothing you can't > easily understand from a litle Netscape experience. > > Now Cyberdog - that *was* different ;-) > > -- > Cheers, > Stan Barr stanb@dial.pipex.com > > The future was never like this! > > > From optimus at canit.se Wed Nov 21 02:33:05 2001 From: optimus at canit.se (Iggy Drougge) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:23:43 2005 Subject: OT: paging MAC expert(s) --- What's a Performa? In-Reply-To: <002b01c17212$aeb59c80$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> Message-ID: <615.725T250T5733791optimus@canit.se> Richard Erlacher skrev: >Well, that's good, but the ultimate end user has no Netscape experience, and >I've got not even enough to be dangerous. I never liked Nestcape because you >had to buy that %$#@! Trumpet Winsock to make it work, and that crapped up a >lot of other Windows functions. What kind of bollocks is that? How do you expect to run a web browser without a TCP/IP stack? I suppose you wouldn't fancy Netscape on the Mac any more, since you had to buy MacTCP in order to run that. Buyt then again, what browser doesn't require a TCP/IP stack in order to be used online? -- En ligne avec Thor 2.6a. From csmith at amdocs.com Tue Nov 20 14:28:18 2001 From: csmith at amdocs.com (Christopher Smith) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:23:43 2005 Subject: OT: paging MAC expert(s) --- What's a Performa? Message-ID: <3B55D7F383B0D31197D9009027541CBF1170DEB4@cmiexch1.cmi.itds.com> > -----Original Message----- > From: Richard Erlacher [mailto:edick@idcomm.com] > It's the "quite a bit of extra work" that concerns me, as the > boys at M$ haven't > managed to do it right yet, and they've been at it to the > tune of 100K man hours > per year for a decade or so. Recording a bitwise image of Well, I haven't got much faith in them to begin with. They could work for 1000 years on a 20 minute job and still mess it up. I'm not saying that it might not actually take that long, just that m$ aren't competent enough to be a good indicator. > what you receive from > the disk may or may not give you all the information you need > to recreate the > files, since you may or may not know how the OS deals with > them. What's more, I was assuming you'd know the filesystem type at the time of the backup. I don't suppose it would be absolutely necessary. You might also recognize a filesystem by magic number/signature, or the like. [snip] > which you write such an image must be an EXACT duplicate of > the one from which > the image was recorded. The second drive may otherwise claim > to be identical > but have a different number of sectors per physical track, > use different mapping > arrangements, etc, and, especially, have different bad > blocks. Since you're Well, "otherwise identical" is dangerous territory at any rate. :) You're right, though, in that depending on the way the software components interact with the drive, one or more of these things might really screw things up. I suppose that would require one to know the internals of each system with which you plan to use this method. > going to send data that goes to where the drive sends it and > not necessarily to > the same physical location from which you got it because the ... which may be ok, depending on how the system interacts with the device in question. Of course, if you find that the system depends on the data being in some physical location, rather than in a logical location, you'd have to correct for that or _just not do it_ ;) [snip] > sent, you may be disappointed with the results because IDE > drives hide too many > details from the end-user. Yep. Tell me about it. [snip] > absolutely for certain, what > the drive does with the data you send it, and what the OS > does to process data > to and from the drive, you're on thin ice. That depends. For instance (This will now get very hypothetical), if the O/S handles data in logical blocks, and doesn't care too much the actual geometry of the drive, you might be ok with not knowing about the device. That is, with the exception of bad blocks. (Really I guess I'm talking about faking a standard interface even when it doesn't exist here) [snip] > all. Since SCSI is well established as to how it operates > its data management, > it yields more hope that you can process an image, though the > vagaries of the OS > are still a limiting factor. On the other hand, as some friends of mine are wont to say: "Neither S in SCSI means standard." > Image recording should work fine with MFM- and RLL-encoded > drives, even on a > track-by-track basis, and those offer some hope that one > could substitute one > sort of drive for another but hte ones which use BOTH CHS and > LBA addressing > won't tolerate the sort of operations to which an > incrementally developed OS > like Windows could create. Can't argue with that. Chris Christopher Smith, Perl Developer Amdocs - Champaign, IL /usr/bin/perl -e ' print((~"\x95\xc4\xe3"^"Just Another Perl Hacker.")."\x08!\n"); ' From edick at idcomm.com Tue Nov 20 16:35:39 2001 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:23:43 2005 Subject: OT: paging MAC expert(s) --- What's a Performa? References: <3B55D7F383B0D31197D9009027541CBF1170DEB4@cmiexch1.cmi.itds.com> Message-ID: <003701c17213$ae3c0a40$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> Well, remember that M$ is in the business of making money, which they seem to do really well. Lots of folks have drawn the erroneous conclusion that they're in the business of writing software. That's not the case. They're in the business of SELLING software. It's not their job to protect the consumer. It's the consumer's job to protect himself. The consumer's been falling down on the job, hence, he keeps on buying that Microsoft product line. If he were smart, he'd stick with the devil he partially knows, and let M$ go under. SO much for Billy-bashing ... I'd like to see someone write a chunk of software that does as much as this one in 20 minutes, BTW. I don't think something this size will even link in 20 minutes. Image recording was OK when one had a firm grasp of what the controller did with the bits from the drive and what the OS did with them afterward. That's no longer the case. In fact, so much wierd stuff goes on internally to the drive, since the controller function is dedicated on each drive, that it's hard to know what is different between two drives. Dick ----- Original Message ----- From: "Christopher Smith" To: Sent: Tuesday, November 20, 2001 1:28 PM Subject: RE: OT: paging MAC expert(s) --- What's a Performa? > > -----Original Message----- > > From: Richard Erlacher [mailto:edick@idcomm.com] > > > It's the "quite a bit of extra work" that concerns me, as the > > boys at M$ haven't > > managed to do it right yet, and they've been at it to the > > tune of 100K man hours > > per year for a decade or so. Recording a bitwise image of > > Well, I haven't got much faith in them to begin with. They could work for > 1000 years on a 20 minute job and still mess it up. I'm not saying that it > might not actually take that long, just that m$ aren't competent enough to > be a good indicator. > > > what you receive from > > the disk may or may not give you all the information you need > > to recreate the > > files, since you may or may not know how the OS deals with > > them. What's more, > > I was assuming you'd know the filesystem type at the time of the backup. I > don't suppose it would be absolutely necessary. You might also recognize a > filesystem by magic number/signature, or the like. > > [snip] > > > which you write such an image must be an EXACT duplicate of > > the one from which > > the image was recorded. The second drive may otherwise claim > > to be identical > > but have a different number of sectors per physical track, > > use different mapping > > arrangements, etc, and, especially, have different bad > > blocks. Since you're > > Well, "otherwise identical" is dangerous territory at any rate. :) You're > right, though, in that depending on the way the software components interact > with the drive, one or more of these things might really screw things up. I > suppose that would require one to know the internals of each system with > which you plan to use this method. > > > going to send data that goes to where the drive sends it and > > not necessarily to > > the same physical location from which you got it because the > > ... which may be ok, depending on how the system interacts with the device > in question. Of course, if you find that the system depends on the data > being in some physical location, rather than in a logical location, you'd > have to correct for that or _just not do it_ ;) > > [snip] > > > sent, you may be disappointed with the results because IDE > > drives hide too many > > details from the end-user. > > Yep. Tell me about it. > > [snip] > > > absolutely for certain, what > > the drive does with the data you send it, and what the OS > > does to process data > > to and from the drive, you're on thin ice. > > That depends. For instance (This will now get very hypothetical), if the > O/S handles data in logical blocks, and doesn't care too much the actual > geometry of the drive, you might be ok with not knowing about the device. > That is, with the exception of bad blocks. (Really I guess I'm talking > about faking a standard interface even when it doesn't exist here) > > [snip] > > > all. Since SCSI is well established as to how it operates > > its data management, > > it yields more hope that you can process an image, though the > > vagaries of the OS > > are still a limiting factor. > > On the other hand, as some friends of mine are wont to say: "Neither S in > SCSI means standard." > > > Image recording should work fine with MFM- and RLL-encoded > > drives, even on a > > track-by-track basis, and those offer some hope that one > > could substitute one > > sort of drive for another but hte ones which use BOTH CHS and > > LBA addressing > > won't tolerate the sort of operations to which an > > incrementally developed OS > > like Windows could create. > > Can't argue with that. > > Chris > > Christopher Smith, Perl Developer > Amdocs - Champaign, IL > > /usr/bin/perl -e ' > print((~"\x95\xc4\xe3"^"Just Another Perl Hacker.")."\x08!\n"); > ' > > > From dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com Tue Nov 20 14:49:41 2001 From: dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com (Douglas Quebbeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:23:43 2005 Subject: OT: paging MAC expert(s) --- What's a Performa? Message-ID: <7A9BACCEF0171D4FB77019F5104CDD3722594D@jeffserver.tegjeff.com> > It works pretty much the same as Netscape, just looks a bit different, > (especially if you install alternave buttons etc.) - nothing you can't > easily understand from a litle Netscape experience. > > Now Cyberdog - that *was* different ;-) And still is. I've got it running on the WGS8150/80 sitting behind me. But Cyberdog could well rise again, under Windows... As you know, Cyberdog was essentially a container for a series of net-enabled OpenDoc components. While Microsoft has still never released the OpenDoc-killing Cairo OS they'd promised, Apple and IBM did stop development of OpenDoc; meantime, Micro- soft continued to develop the Component Object model enough that a certain third-party is going to take advantage of it big-time. The party is Stardock, and the product is DesktopX. The next generation of DesktopX will provide a framework for the use and development of COM objects directly by the user. With DesktopX, it'll be almost trivial to recreate Cyberdog using COM (and ActiveX components) instead of OpenDoc. I'll stop there since I'm drifting OT... -dq From spectre at stockholm.ptloma.edu Tue Nov 20 15:03:29 2001 From: spectre at stockholm.ptloma.edu (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:23:43 2005 Subject: OT: paging MAC expert(s) --- What's a Performa? In-Reply-To: <3B55D7F383B0D31197D9009027541CBF1170DEA9@cmiexch1.cmi.itds.com> from Christopher Smith at "Nov 20, 1 09:29:04 am" Message-ID: <200111202103.NAA07998@stockholm.ptloma.edu> > There's at least one worm that takes advantage of a Quicktime feature (why > on earth did they put this in Quicktime?!) that will automatically run some > program on a volume when the volume is mounted. Don't remember the name of > this "feature," but it is akin to the windows "autorun," and just as bad. Easily turned off for the modern Mac users in the audience; go to Control Panels, QuickTime Settings; select AutoPlay from the drop-down box; uncheck Enable CD-ROM Autoplay. It is still in QuickTime as of 5.0.2, alas. -- ----------------------------- personal page: http://www.armory.com/~spectre/ -- Cameron Kaiser, Point Loma Nazarene University * ckaiser@stockholm.ptloma.edu -- The things which hurt, instruct. -- Benjamin Franklin ---------------------- From foo at siconic.com Tue Nov 20 13:46:11 2001 From: foo at siconic.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:23:43 2005 Subject: Tandy 10 Info Wanted In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Tue, 20 Nov 2001, Owen Robertson wrote: > Does anyone know anything about the Tandy 10? It was Tandy/Radio > Shack's larger microcomputer around the time the TRS-80 Model I came > out. I found a picture of one in a book, and got kind of interested in > it (partially a little home-town pride, being from Fort Worth). I > can't find hardly any information about it on the internet. I vaguely recall a discussion in the early days of ClassicCmp (perhaps the first year) about the Tandy 10. Try searching the archives at http://www.classiccmp.org/ to see if anything turns up. Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org From tothwolf at concentric.net Tue Nov 20 14:05:33 2001 From: tothwolf at concentric.net (Tothwolf) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:23:43 2005 Subject: Preserving old literature (was: Re: Tandy 10 Info Wanted) In-Reply-To: <160e01c171f2$138b38c0$0b01a8c0@ValuedCustomer> Message-ID: On Tue, 20 Nov 2001, Michael Nadeau wrote: > The only information I have on it is that it was made for Tandy by another > unidentified company. The system was built into a desk and sold only at the > Tandy Center store in Fort Worth. It had dual 8-inch floppies and sold for > just under $10,000. There's a photo of one in the August 1986 issue of 80 > Micro. Speaking of 80 Micro...has anyone scanned the issues from 1980-1983? I have a collection covering all of 1980-1982, and about 1/4th of '83 (starting with issue #1). I haven't yet scanned anything since I am unsure about how to do so w/o damaging them. -Toth From menadeau at mediaone.net Tue Nov 20 14:26:32 2001 From: menadeau at mediaone.net (Michael Nadeau) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:23:43 2005 Subject: Preserving old literature (was: Re: Tandy 10 Info Wanted) References: Message-ID: <164001c17201$aaa5a240$0b01a8c0@ValuedCustomer> If I were to do it, I'd sacrifice a less-than-pristine copy for the cause--not an option if you don't have a duplicate, of course. Scanning some of those bigger issues without taking them apart is near impossible (I've tried), and there's no way to reassemble the magazine. --Mike Michael Nadeau Editorial Services 603-893-2379 ----- Original Message ----- From: "Tothwolf" To: Sent: Tuesday, November 20, 2001 3:05 PM Subject: Preserving old literature (was: Re: Tandy 10 Info Wanted) > On Tue, 20 Nov 2001, Michael Nadeau wrote: > > > The only information I have on it is that it was made for Tandy by another > > unidentified company. The system was built into a desk and sold only at the > > Tandy Center store in Fort Worth. It had dual 8-inch floppies and sold for > > just under $10,000. There's a photo of one in the August 1986 issue of 80 > > Micro. > > Speaking of 80 Micro...has anyone scanned the issues from 1980-1983? I > have a collection covering all of 1980-1982, and about 1/4th of '83 > (starting with issue #1). I haven't yet scanned anything since I am unsure > about how to do so w/o damaging them. > > -Toth > > From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Nov 20 18:18:07 2001 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:23:43 2005 Subject: 1771 floppy controller questions In-Reply-To: from "Tothwolf" at Nov 20, 1 03:46:58 am Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 953 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20011121/f58b07a0/attachment.ksh From tothwolf at concentric.net Wed Nov 21 03:11:53 2001 From: tothwolf at concentric.net (Tothwolf) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:23:43 2005 Subject: Preserving old literature (was: Re: Tandy 10 Info Wanted) In-Reply-To: <164001c17201$aaa5a240$0b01a8c0@ValuedCustomer> Message-ID: On Tue, 20 Nov 2001, Michael Nadeau wrote: > From: "Tothwolf" > > > Speaking of 80 Micro...has anyone scanned the issues from 1980-1983? I > > have a collection covering all of 1980-1982, and about 1/4th of '83 > > (starting with issue #1). I haven't yet scanned anything since I am unsure > > about how to do so w/o damaging them. > > If I were to do it, I'd sacrifice a less-than-pristine copy for the > cause--not an option if you don't have a duplicate, of course. Scanning some > of those bigger issues without taking them apart is near impossible (I've > tried), and there's no way to reassemble the magazine. I don't have any duplicates, so taking them apart in such a way that ruins them isn't an option for me. I guess I need to find an expert on book binding and see what they can come up with. Maybe there is a special scanner out there that was made for doing this kind of thing? -Toth From tothwolf at concentric.net Wed Nov 21 03:18:36 2001 From: tothwolf at concentric.net (Tothwolf) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:23:43 2005 Subject: 1771 floppy controller questions In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Wed, 21 Nov 2001, Tony Duell wrote: > > makes sense that they changed that part of the design. I own both a model > > 3 and 4, neither of which currently work. Any ideas on where a service > > manual can be found for either of these? I also have a model 2 that worked > > I have at least schematics for the M3 and non-gate-array M4. What's the > problem with your machines? What do they do at switch-on? It has been a number of years since I powered them up. Right now I think they are both sitting disassembled in a couple of large boxes. I'm in the process of construction of a building just for my old hardware, so once that is done, I'll pull both of them out and bench them and see what their problems were. I think the model 3 would start up, but just plain lock up about the time it was going to boot. I think it may be a ram problem. The model 4 didn't power up at all if I remember correctly. -Toth From fernande at internet1.net Wed Nov 21 03:29:51 2001 From: fernande at internet1.net (Chad Fernandez) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:23:43 2005 Subject: Radio Shack abandons components References: <271.725T2400T5815589optimus@canit.se> Message-ID: <3BFB740F.39FF42E6@internet1.net> No, I knew about that one. I thought Tandy Computers were bought out by Compaq too. Thats what I had heard, unless that was just a rumor brought on by all the RS stores carrying Compaqs after the demise of the Tandy line. Visiting the RS web site, I see that it was indeed AST. Chad Fernandez Michigan, USA Iggy Drougge wrote: > > Chad Fernandez skrev: > > >I thought Tandy sold the computer division to Compaq? > > You're probably thinking of Tandon. > > -- > En ligne avec Thor 2.6a. > > G? med i SUGA, Swedish Usergroup of Amiga! > WWW: http://swedish.usergroup.amiga.tm/ > BBS: 08-6582572, telnet://sua.ath.cx:42512 From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Nov 20 18:15:56 2001 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:23:43 2005 Subject: 1771 floppy controller questions In-Reply-To: <002b01c1719f$1f0d7940$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> from "Richard Erlacher" at Nov 20, 1 01:41:17 am Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 864 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20011121/3f9f5293/attachment.ksh From Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de Wed Nov 21 04:21:58 2001 From: Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de (Hans Franke) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:23:43 2005 Subject: 1771 chip brings $565 on EBAY? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <3BFB8E56.16408.3440B6@localhost> > > > Well, I accidentally plugged the chip in backward when troubleshooting the > > > floppy interface right after I got it. It turned out that the floppy > > > ribbon was bad, just due to age I guess. I don't think the chip let out > > > its magic smoke, but it certainly does not work now ;) > > A modest proposal: > > Since the chip collectors don't REALLY care whether tha chip is actually > > WORKING, ... > > So long as the escape of the magic smoke didn't leave any marks, save the > > electrically dead chips, and let the ship collectors have them. > > If the chip collectors would be willing to trade working common varieties > > of chips for dead rarer colors, ... > > C'mon guys, got a working common variety 1771 for Toth? > Eh...my dead chip isn't in good shape, it got hot enough to almost totally > erase its markings. I think quite a few of the pins got broken off after I > tossed the dead chip in the junk box too. I just can't see someone wanting > a dead 1771 w/ faint markings and broken pins...I guess it would look ok > if it were glued to something and had some clear coat applied to the top > to make the writing show up again ;P Remember, this is Antiqu Stuff business - it could be a good idea to have a skilled artist restore the optical condition. If you invest, lets say two or threehundres Dollars you still may get a prety good deal. SCNR H. -- VCF Europa 3.0 am 27./28. April 2002 in Muenchen http://www.vcfe.org/ From Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de Wed Nov 21 04:28:24 2001 From: Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de (Hans Franke) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:23:43 2005 Subject: panasonic hhc In-Reply-To: <115.7f83d31.292bf82f@aol.com> Message-ID: <3BFB8FD8.9556.3A2428@localhost> > hey thanks hans i pulled up a webb site on it mentioning the basic in rom > wonder if if have that and how to program with it. > i got about six chips with it. i cant find them right now but i think i may > have thrown them out. > silly me AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAArgh. Well, if you happen to find them again, I'd love to get some copies. Gruss H. -- VCF Europa 3.0 am 27./28. April 2002 in Muenchen http://www.vcfe.org/ From cmurillo at emtelsa.multi.net.co Wed Nov 21 05:58:49 2001 From: cmurillo at emtelsa.multi.net.co (Carlos Murillo) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:23:43 2005 Subject: FreeTradeZone site moving to subscription-only for older parts In-Reply-To: <285.725T1600T5424845optimus@canit.se> References: <9011A52E011ED311B4280004AC1BA615014672BB@yalepress3.unipress.yale.edu> Message-ID: <3.0.2.32.20011121065849.010878b8@obregon.multi.net.co> At 09:02 AM 11/21/01 +0100, Iggy wrote: >David Woyciesjes skrev: > >>Maybe runs a full-tilt website crawler/archiver program? The kind that grabs >>whetever pages you tell it, for offline reading, or some such thing? > >Wget. I thought you did not like wget. carlos. -------------------------------------------------------------- Carlos E. Murillo-Sanchez carlos_murillo@nospammers.ieee.org From cbajpai at mediaone.net Wed Nov 21 06:20:46 2001 From: cbajpai at mediaone.net (Chandra Bajpai) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:23:43 2005 Subject: Radio Shack abandons components In-Reply-To: <3BFB740F.39FF42E6@internet1.net> Message-ID: <000401c17286$f4e643c0$b97ba8c0@ne.mediaone.net> Tandy Computers sold out to AST (who also bought Grid)...part of the deal was that AST computers were sold at Radio Shack, the deal didn't last that long. AST also sold out to their majority investor (Samsung?) when they were nearly out of business. Unrelated is the RadioShack-Compaq deal...similar to deal cut by Sprint-RadioShack. -Chandra -----Original Message----- From: owner-classiccmp@classiccmp.org [mailto:owner-classiccmp@classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Chad Fernandez Sent: Wednesday, November 21, 2001 4:30 AM To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org Subject: Re: Radio Shack abandons components No, I knew about that one. I thought Tandy Computers were bought out by Compaq too. Thats what I had heard, unless that was just a rumor brought on by all the RS stores carrying Compaqs after the demise of the Tandy line. Visiting the RS web site, I see that it was indeed AST. Chad Fernandez Michigan, USA Iggy Drougge wrote: > > Chad Fernandez skrev: > > >I thought Tandy sold the computer division to Compaq? > > You're probably thinking of Tandon. > > -- > En ligne avec Thor 2.6a. > > G? med i SUGA, Swedish Usergroup of Amiga! > WWW: http://swedish.usergroup.amiga.tm/ > BBS: 08-6582572, telnet://sua.ath.cx:42512 From bpope at wordstock.com Wed Nov 21 06:43:26 2001 From: bpope at wordstock.com (Bryan Pope) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:23:43 2005 Subject: OT: paging MAC expert(s) --- What's a Performa? In-Reply-To: <615.725T250T5733791optimus@canit.se> from "Iggy Drougge" at Nov 21, 01 09:33:05 am Message-ID: <200111211243.HAA12409@wordstock.com> > > Richard Erlacher skrev: > > >Well, that's good, but the ultimate end user has no Netscape experience, and > >I've got not even enough to be dangerous. I never liked Nestcape because you > >had to buy that %$#@! Trumpet Winsock to make it work, and that crapped up a buy!? In the day when we had to use Trumpet Winsock, it came free when you signed up for an internet account. But this was on Windows 3.1. > >lot of other Windows functions. > Bryan Pope From zmerch at 30below.com Wed Nov 21 06:51:18 2001 From: zmerch at 30below.com (Roger Merchberger) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:23:43 2005 Subject: SCB68430 DMA controller data sheets etc. In-Reply-To: <005701c1724c$956e4f80$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> References: <4.3.2.7.2.20011119151244.00b1d0c8@mail.azstarnet.com> <4.3.2.7.2.20011120211045.028e6ec0@pop.azstarnet.com> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20011121074011.00acb088@mail.30below.com> Rumor has it that Richard Erlacher may have mentioned these words: >Sadly, the freetradezone/partsminer are starting to charge a ~$300 monthly fee >for their service, so stock up on datasheet files while you can. Yes, that is sad, however... Fairchild Semi has a WWW site that I'd gotten all of their chip datasheets in PDF format -- several gigs in fact. On my linux box, I downloaded the entire PDF datasheet directory & archived it to CD-ROM. I don't have the archive in any "quick-find" format, but if there are any weird chips out there you need datasheets on, I might be able to get them to you within a week (barring holidays... ;-) Try here: http://www.fairchildsemi.com/pf/ This is the main directory of all the chip PDFs, listed by first 2 characters of the part number -- DM houses most all of the 74xx series parts they make, the 1N directory you can get data on all their diodes, etc... I can tell you that if you have a modem, don't even try downloading this whole thing -- It took me almost 24 hours with a pair of T1's to the backbone (that's 3Mbit)! HTH, Roger "Merch" Merchberger From dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com Wed Nov 21 07:20:37 2001 From: dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com (Douglas Quebbeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:23:43 2005 Subject: RA60 drives anywhere? And stuff... Message-ID: <7A9BACCEF0171D4FB77019F5104CDD37225951@jeffserver.tegjeff.com> > On Tue, 20 Nov 2001, Tony Duell wrote: > > > Last time I was in a PC shop, they were selling 'line printer > > paper'... What was it? Poor-ish quality A4 sheets, like you'd use in > > a laser printer or copier. Not fanfold, not sproketed, certainly not > > greenbar. > > I bought a box of wide, greenbar paper at my local OfficeMax. They had > quite a few boxes in inventory. Yup. Box of 20lb greenbar set me back US$38 at Office Despot. -dq From dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com Wed Nov 21 07:23:36 2001 From: dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com (Douglas Quebbeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:23:43 2005 Subject: OT: paging MAC expert(s) --- What's a Performa? Message-ID: <7A9BACCEF0171D4FB77019F5104CDD37225952@jeffserver.tegjeff.com> > > Richard Erlacher skrev: > > > > >Well, that's good, but the ultimate end user has no Netscape experience, and > > >I've got not even enough to be dangerous. I never liked Nestcape because you > > >had to buy that %$#@! Trumpet Winsock to make it work, and that crapped up a > > buy!? In the day when we had to use Trumpet Winsock, it came free when you > signed up for an internet account. But this was on Windows 3.1. Ditto that. -dq From joh869 at aol.com Wed Nov 21 07:32:09 2001 From: joh869 at aol.com (joh869@aol.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:23:43 2005 Subject: (no subject) Message-ID: <153.45ce7d5.292d06d9@aol.com> Hi I need a systems disk that contains software for the Toshiba dynabook 286. Also where can I buy a low density floppy? You may -mail me with suggestions @ u-should-b@webtv.net N-E HELP will be greatly appreaciated. Thanx -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20011121/9fb3b8cc/attachment.html From tothwolf at concentric.net Wed Nov 21 07:53:58 2001 From: tothwolf at concentric.net (Tothwolf) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:23:43 2005 Subject: 1771 chip brings $565 on EBAY? In-Reply-To: <3BFB8E56.16408.3440B6@localhost> Message-ID: On Wed, 21 Nov 2001, Hans Franke wrote: > Remember, this is Antiqu Stuff business - it could be a good idea to > have a skilled artist restore the optical condition. If you invest, > lets say two or threehundres Dollars you still may get a prety good > deal. Somehow I doubt that...I can get a NOS chip for $5, so it don't seem to be worth it. I think I'll just toss the old one back into the junk box and let it collect value with age. Who knows? maybe in 20 years it'll be worth something ;P -Toth From r_beaudry at hotmail.com Wed Nov 21 08:39:05 2001 From: r_beaudry at hotmail.com (Rich Beaudry) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:23:43 2005 Subject: Mac Restore CDs/Manuals Message-ID: Hello all.... I recently picked up an LC 630 DOS Compatible Macintosh. Nice machine, with SCSI CD, the DOS card, A/V card, and TV tuner card, but no disks or manuals. I know it's off-topic but someone here already mentioned a restore CD, and I believe it was for the LC 630. If so, could you contact me off-list mailto:r_beaudry@hotmail.com ) so I could get a copy? I'll gladly pay for postage and media costs.. Same for hardcopy manuals. I have some .PDFs, but they're so clumsy ... If anyone has spare copies of manuals for this machine, especially any tech references or service manuals, I'll gladly pay postage, and some extra, for them.... Thanks! Rich B. From Robert_Feldman at jdedwards.com Wed Nov 21 08:37:50 2001 From: Robert_Feldman at jdedwards.com (Feldman, Robert) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:23:43 2005 Subject: 50th anniversary of the routine business use of computers Message-ID: I was looking at the Economist (Nov 17th) at the library last night and saw the following (p. 76) The Lyons Electronic Office (LEO) began use 11-17-1951 in a British catering company. It was used weekly to evaluate costs, prices, and margins for the week's output of bread, cakes, and pies. It was "the first dedicated business machine to operate on the 'stored program' principle, meaning that it could be quickly reconfigured to preform different tasks by loading a new program. It occupied 5,000 square feet of floorspace, contained 6,000 thermionic valves, and its mercury-delay-line memory could hold 2,048 instructions. LEO was built by a team led by John Pinkerton (pictured), and its design was based on Cambridge University's EDSAC computer." From dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com Wed Nov 21 08:53:51 2001 From: dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com (Douglas Quebbeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:23:43 2005 Subject: Radio Shack abandons components Message-ID: <7A9BACCEF0171D4FB77019F5104CDD37225958@jeffserver.tegjeff.com> > >I live just north of Fort Worth, and the big Radio Shack "Outlet Store". > >They have a lot of discontinued things, and a lot of components. I assume > >they'll always have them. > > I've noticed that even the 'bargain bin' area that used to be > tucked back in one corner of most stores seems to be gone as well. > Used to be able to get some cool older discontinued stuff from that > section, including Model 2000 stuff. Unfortunately I also passed on > a portable disk drive in the same area at one point. The portable hard drive? I've got one of those, I really do need to get my 2000 out and play with it for Christmas... -dq From menadeau at mediaone.net Wed Nov 21 08:52:34 2001 From: menadeau at mediaone.net (Michael Nadeau) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:23:43 2005 Subject: Cringely on the origin of the IBM PC and Open Source References: <5.0.0.25.2.20011120081004.024bfde0@209.185.79.193> <00a101c171e2$e3a56720$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> Message-ID: <0a3101c1729c$2e6acb60$0b01a8c0@ValuedCustomer> Read the comments by Jack Sams, formerly of IBM, about half-way down. Fascinating history. http://www.pbs.org/cringely/pulpit/pulpit20011122.html --Mike Michael Nadeau Editorial Services 603-893-2379 From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Wed Nov 21 09:36:26 2001 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (Ben Franchuk) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:23:43 2005 Subject: Trinary circuits References: <240.724T650T5014739optimus@canit.se> Message-ID: <3BFBC9FA.EBDD78A3@jetnet.ab.ca> Iggy Drougge wrote: > > This might interest some of the perverts out there: http://www.trinary.cc/ Yes this great. Now all 3 fingered people like elves can use a computer:) Thanks I have always wondered about base 3 math. Ben Franchuk. -- Live "Pre-historic Cpu's" -- and you thought they were extinct. www.jetnet.ab.ca/users/bfranchuk/index.html From csmith at amdocs.com Wed Nov 21 09:56:17 2001 From: csmith at amdocs.com (Christopher Smith) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:23:43 2005 Subject: Mac Restore CDs/Manuals Message-ID: <3B55D7F383B0D31197D9009027541CBF1170DEBA@cmiexch1.cmi.itds.com> > -----Original Message----- > From: Rich Beaudry [mailto:r_beaudry@hotmail.com] > Same for hardcopy manuals. I have some .PDFs, but they're so > clumsy ... If > anyone has spare copies of manuals for this machine, > especially any tech > references or service manuals, I'll gladly pay postage, and > some extra, for > them.... I assume they exist somewhere, but the closest thing I've ever seen to a tech reference or service manual for any macintosh was the Chilton's book on macintosh repair. (Yes, the same people who do automobile repair books...) It have that book, and it's relatively decent. Only covers old goldfish-bowl style macs, though. :) The copy I have, though, is the only copy of the book I've ever seen. Regards, Chris Christopher Smith, Perl Developer Amdocs - Champaign, IL /usr/bin/perl -e ' print((~"\x95\xc4\xe3"^"Just Another Perl Hacker.")."\x08!\n"); ' From dan at ekoan.com Wed Nov 21 10:53:07 2001 From: dan at ekoan.com (Dan Veeneman) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:23:43 2005 Subject: Mac Restore CDs/Manuals In-Reply-To: <3B55D7F383B0D31197D9009027541CBF1170DEBA@cmiexch1.cmi.itds .com> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20011121114725.02d6fd00@enigma> At 09:56 AM 11/21/01 -0600, you wrote: > > -----Original Message----- > > From: Rich Beaudry [mailto:r_beaudry@hotmail.com] > > > Same for hardcopy manuals. I have some .PDFs, but they're so > > clumsy ... If > > anyone has spare copies of manuals for this machine, > > especially any tech > > references or service manuals, I'll gladly pay postage, and > > some extra, for > > them.... > >I assume they exist somewhere, but the closest thing I've ever seen to a >tech reference or service manual for any macintosh was the Chilton's book on >macintosh repair. Apple published a series of manuals entitled "Inside Macintosh," volumes 3 and 4 of which I found in a thrift shop recently. They are for the "goldfish-bowl" MACs (copyright dates are 1985) and are primarily geared toward programmers, but there are some hardware diagrams and pin-outs (nothing that Tony couldn't figure out in less than 30 seconds, though...) Cheers, Dan From mythtech at Mac.com Wed Nov 21 11:45:23 2001 From: mythtech at Mac.com (Chris) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:23:43 2005 Subject: Mac Restore CDs/Manuals Message-ID: >>I assume they exist somewhere, but the closest thing I've ever seen to a >>tech reference or service manual for any macintosh was the Chilton's book on >>macintosh repair. > >Apple published a series of manuals entitled "Inside Macintosh," volumes >3 and 4 of which I found in a thrift shop recently. They are for the >"goldfish-bowl" >MACs (copyright dates are 1985) and are primarily geared toward programmers, >but there are some hardware diagrams and pin-outs (nothing that Tony couldn't >figure out in less than 30 seconds, though...) Actually, there are tech manuals that give breakdown and assembly, and part numbers for almost every mac, and apple product. They also include basic diagnostic. I believe they are the same manuals the apple authorized repair centers use (which is really sad, since the diagnostics are pathetically simple, so obviously apple doesn't expect their techs to have much of a brain) You can download the manuals from an Apple FTP site, the catch is however, you can't browse the contents of the ftp directory, so you need to know what the manual is you are after. Fortuantly, someone has put up a web site listing many of them (and links to the FTP site for easy download). The web site WAS: , alas as of just checking it now, it seems to be gone. Maybe someone will know a newer site? (thankfully I pulled down copies of everything I own or am after... now I just wish I had taken the time to pull everything available down) -chris From Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de Wed Nov 21 10:10:27 2001 From: Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de (Hans Franke) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:23:43 2005 Subject: Exhibition 20th Anniversary IBM PC in Frankfurt/M (D) Message-ID: <3BFBE003.24923.1734AB9@localhost> This Sunday an Exhibition themed 20th Anniversary of the IBM PC will open in Frankfurt/M, Germany. The show will last until early January, so plenty time to book your tikets. I don't have detailed information about the pices exhibited, but it seams to be a prety mixed up melnage of PCs and other mid 80s machnines. Check http://www.fitg.de/fitg_deutsch/aktiv/pc20j/pc_werbe_00.html (German only) The exhibition is produced by the Förderkreises Industrie- und Technikgeschichte e.V., a non profit organisation dedicated to preserve industrial age and technological artefacts. Also least one of the co-producers (Matthias Schmitt) is also prety active around other classic computing themes. Gruss H. -- VCF Europa 3.0 am 27./28. April 2002 in Muenchen http://www.vcfe.org/ From ghldbrd at ccp.com Wed Nov 21 10:20:29 2001 From: ghldbrd at ccp.com (Gary Hildebrand) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:23:43 2005 Subject: Toshiba disk & DSDD floppy References: <153.45ce7d5.292d06d9@aol.com> Message-ID: <3BFBD44D.EBABADD5@ccp.com> sorry can't help on the Toshiba system disk, as I'm a predominantly Amiga guy here. DSDD 3.5 drives are rare too, as most dealers threw them away. I have a small stash, but I'm haning on to them as they are used in Amigas. I'd reccomend finding some computer swap meets, hamfests, and used computer dealers. any one of these may be able to help you find what you're looking for. Gary Hildebrand st. Jsoeph, MO From mythtech at Mac.com Wed Nov 21 11:11:06 2001 From: mythtech at Mac.com (Chris) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:23:43 2005 Subject: Toshiba disk & DSDD floppy Message-ID: >DSDD 3.5 drives are rare too, as most dealers threw them away. I have a >small stash, but I'm haning on to them as they are used in Amigas. I have one DSDD 3.5" drive (720k drive). I *think* it works. It is a standard size 3.5" drive, but the face plate is part of the unit, and it is for a 5.25" hole, so you really need a 5.25 half height bay to fit it. I don't really need it if someone was on the search for one (sorry, missed the beginning of this thread) -chris From csmith at amdocs.com Wed Nov 21 10:23:24 2001 From: csmith at amdocs.com (Christopher Smith) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:23:43 2005 Subject: Toshiba Dynabook 286 software/DD disks Was: (no subject) Message-ID: <3B55D7F383B0D31197D9009027541CBF1170DEBB@cmiexch1.cmi.itds.com> -----Original Message----- From: joh869@aol.com [mailto:joh869@aol.com] Hi I need a systems disk that contains software for the Toshiba dynabook 286. Also where can I buy a low density floppy? You may -mail me with suggestions @ u-should-b@webtv.net I'm assuming that you mean double-density floppy, since that sounds about right for a 286. A quick yahoo search turns these up: http://www.athana.com/html/diskette.html http://www.filmemporium.com/shopsite_sc/store/html/data_storage.html http://www.amservices.com/amsionline/media.htm I don't know anything about these companies, never used them, but it seems that some of them even carry 8" disks (presumably soft-sectored) Regards, Chris From rigdonj at intellistar.net Wed Nov 21 10:26:16 2001 From: rigdonj at intellistar.net (Joe) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:23:43 2005 Subject: Say it ain't so, Joe! In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20011112231821.03b2e220@enigma> Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20011121112616.007b4100@mailhost.intellistar.net> Hi Dan, At 11:20 PM 11/12/01 -0500, you wrote: > From the Classic Computer list: > > > I've had to dispose of all my classic computer stuff > >What? What happened? Pressure from the OL and I just got fed up with everything. > >You were my HP hero! You had all of the vintage HP gear >that I'm trying to collect! Well there's still a pile of the bigger and less popular HP stuff here if you want to come get it. Here's a list of what I can remember off the top of my head: Complete and working HP 150 and Touchscreen II systems with drives and manuals and SW, etc; a lot of HP 110s, again with manuals and SW; about 20 HP 9825s with loads of accessories; about 15 HP 85s again with loads of manuals, ROMS, etc; several HP 9920s including a full blown and loaded one that came from Litton Laser Systems; several 9826s and 9836s including a 9836CU; and bunches of interfaces and peripherals for the above. Also a dead 9830 and a dead 9821, parts of a 9835, several 9845s and at least two HP Integrals in unknown condition. Also a working HP 120 CPM machine with SW. But I don't have time to ship them so you HAVE TO come get them. I haven't decided what to do about the HP 9915s and the 9831 yet. All of the following are gone: ALL of the HP handheld calcs; all the extra HP SW paks and manuals; all the HP catalogs; all of the HP Journals; the HP 9100 and accessories; all the HP 97s, 9815s and small desktop calcs; the HP 125 CPM machine; all the AIM 65s; the Apple Lisas; the DEC 11/23 system; all the S-100 stuff except for a few Cromemco cases with backplanes; both Altairs; the Rubicon; the SB-180; all the HP 9000 series 300 machines; all six Osbornes; both Z-100s and all the manuals and extra parts; all the Intel and Motorola SBCs; the Tektronix 31 calc; the Tektronix 8051 computer and all accessories and manuals; the Tektronix CPM computer; the Intel 235 MDS; the Sony/Tektronix Logic Analyzers; the Dolch MPM computer/logic analyzer; ALL the general computer manuals and books; all the test equipment except for one OLD HP logic analyzer and all the machine tools and tooling except for the 12 x 48" lathe (it's spoken for but we have to tear down the building to get it out!) Joe From steven_j_robertson at hotmail.com Wed Nov 21 10:30:40 2001 From: steven_j_robertson at hotmail.com (Steve Robertson) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:23:43 2005 Subject: Say it ain't so, Joe! Message-ID: Joe, Was thinking about coming to the area to visit some friends on Friday. You gonna be around? SteveRob _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp From LFessen106 at aol.com Wed Nov 21 10:31:43 2001 From: LFessen106 at aol.com (LFessen106@aol.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:23:43 2005 Subject: Say it ain't so, Joe! Message-ID: Love to help "rescue" some of the HP stuff - where are you located? -Linc Fessenden In The Beginning there was nothing, which exploded - Yeah right... Calculating in binary code is as easy as 01,10,11. From uban at ubanproductions.com Wed Nov 21 11:24:17 2001 From: uban at ubanproductions.com (Tom Uban) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:23:43 2005 Subject: I'm guessing you have solved this problem... In-Reply-To: References: <20011108003953.Y92508-100000@lepton.subatomix.com> Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.20011121112417.008c7100@ubanproductions.com> Hi Tony, What have you used to replace the various DEC bipolar ROMs in an 11/45 CPU? --tom From stanb at dial.pipex.com Wed Nov 21 12:55:35 2001 From: stanb at dial.pipex.com (Stan Barr) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:23:43 2005 Subject: 50th anniversary of the routine business use of computers In-Reply-To: Your message of "Wed, 21 Nov 2001 07:37:50 MST." Message-ID: <200111211855.SAA14961@citadel.metropolis.local> Hi, "Feldman, Robert" said: > I was looking at the Economist (Nov 17th) at the library last night and saw > the following (p. 76) > > The Lyons Electronic Office (LEO) began use 11-17-1951 in a British catering > company. etc... See also: http://www.leo-computers.org.uk/ -- Cheers, Stan Barr stanb@dial.pipex.com The future was never like this! From jott at mastif.ee.nd.edu Wed Nov 21 13:33:54 2001 From: jott at mastif.ee.nd.edu (John Ott) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:23:44 2005 Subject: HardCard driver disks In-Reply-To: <3BFB2208.E1D80B3E@oxford.net>; from dancohoe@oxford.net on Tue, Nov 20, 2001 at 10:39:52PM -0500 References: <3BFB2208.E1D80B3E@oxford.net> Message-ID: <20011121143354.B316@mastif> Hello - I could use one of these on my compaq portable with a 20 MB hardcard. John On Tue, Nov 20, 2001 at 10:39:52PM -0500, Dan Cohoe wrote: Vintage Computer Festival wrote: > > I came across a stash of HardCard driver diskettes today (360K 5.25"). > They say on the label that they are for the 20MB version, but I'm sure > they would work on the 40MB model as well. > > Anyhoo, I have three spare copies if anyone is interested. One to each > respondent. E-mail me your address and I'll get it out to you. Don't > worry about mailing costs. > > Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ > International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org > > * Old computing resources for business and academia at www.VintageTech.com * -- ************************************************************************ * * * * John Ott * Email: jott@hamming.ee.nd.edu * * 68906 Miami Rd. * * * Bremen, IN 46506 * Phone: (219) 631-7752 * * * Fax: (219) 631-9924 * * * * ************************************************************************ From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Wed Nov 21 09:30:33 2001 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (Ben Franchuk) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:23:44 2005 Subject: 1771 chip brings $565 on EBAY? References: Message-ID: <3BFBC899.2478A4F7@jetnet.ab.ca> Tothwolf wrote: > > On Wed, 21 Nov 2001, Hans Franke wrote: > > > Remember, this is Antiqu Stuff business - it could be a good idea to > > have a skilled artist restore the optical condition. If you invest, > > lets say two or threehundres Dollars you still may get a prety good > > deal. > > Somehow I doubt that...I can get a NOS chip for $5, so it don't seem to be > worth it. I think I'll just toss the old one back into the junk box and > let it collect value with age. Who knows? maybe in 20 years it'll be worth > something ;P Sounds like tube audio here. A generic NOS abc tube $5. A new gold plated fancy abc tube from the fancy audio people $35. And of course the latest amp needs 8 of them. :( A middle road is needed here. > -Toth Ben Franchuk. -- Live "Pre-historic Cpu's" -- and you thought they were extinct. www.jetnet.ab.ca/users/bfranchuk/index.html From jrasite at eoni.com Wed Nov 21 14:08:52 2001 From: jrasite at eoni.com (Jim Arnott) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:23:44 2005 Subject: Mac Restore CDs/Manuals References: Message-ID: <3BFC09CD.4554797F@eoni.com> Unfortunately, Gamba's site has been closed by those folks at Apple that received their training from M$. Read "cease and desist". The Heretics sucked the site before his ISP cut it off. Try From stanb at dial.pipex.com Wed Nov 21 02:37:54 2001 From: stanb at dial.pipex.com (Stan Barr) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:23:44 2005 Subject: OT: paging MAC expert(s) --- What's a Performa? In-Reply-To: Your message of "Tue, 20 Nov 2001 15:49:41 EST." <7A9BACCEF0171D4FB77019F5104CDD3722594D@jeffserver.tegjeff.com> Message-ID: <200111210837.IAA09707@citadel.metropolis.local> Hi, Douglas Quebbeman said: > > It works pretty much the same as Netscape, just looks a bit different, > > (especially if you install alternave buttons etc.) - nothing you can't > > easily understand from a litle Netscape experience. > > > > Now Cyberdog - that *was* different ;-) > > And still is. I've got it running on the WGS8150/80 sitting > behind me. But Cyberdog could well rise again, under Windows... Ve-e-e-ry Interesting! Yeah, I keep Cyberdog around if only to show people that web browsing doesn't *have* to look like Exploder/Nutscrape ;-) -- Cheers, Stan Barr stanb@dial.pipex.com The future was never like this! From stanb at dial.pipex.com Wed Nov 21 02:43:50 2001 From: stanb at dial.pipex.com (Stan Barr) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:23:44 2005 Subject: OT: paging MAC expert(s) --- What's a Performa? In-Reply-To: Your message of "Tue, 20 Nov 2001 15:28:30 MST." <002b01c17212$aeb59c80$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> Message-ID: <200111210843.IAA09775@citadel.metropolis.local> Hi, "Richard Erlacher" said: > Well, that's good, but the ultimate end user has no Netscape experience, and > I've got not even enough to be dangerous. I never liked Nestcape because you > had to buy that %$#@! Trumpet Winsock to make it work, and that crapped up a lot > of other Windows functions. > > Nevertheless, I want to take a look at iCab. If it works easily enough and > lives in considerably less memory than Netscape, I'm all for it! > > Dick > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Stan Barr" > > > > It works pretty much the same as Netscape, just looks a bit different, > > (especially if you install alternave buttons etc.) - nothing you can't > > easily understand from a litle Netscape experience. > > Unfortuantely, the last time I looked the online help was available only in German! However if you turn on balloon help each function is well - if briefly - explained (in English!). -- Cheers, Stan Barr stanb@dial.pipex.com The future was never like this! From csmith at amdocs.com Wed Nov 21 09:30:02 2001 From: csmith at amdocs.com (Christopher Smith) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:23:44 2005 Subject: OT: paging MAC expert(s) --- What's a Performa? Message-ID: <3B55D7F383B0D31197D9009027541CBF1170DEB8@cmiexch1.cmi.itds.com> > -----Original Message----- > From: Richard Erlacher [mailto:edick@idcomm.com] > really well. Lots of folks have drawn the erroneous > conclusion that they're in > the business of writing software. That's not the case. > They're in the business > of SELLING software. It's not their job to protect the > consumer. It's the > consumer's job to protect himself. The consumer's been > falling down on the job, All too true. Unfortunately, some of those consumers employ me, so it becomes my problem too. :) I should clarify that I don't dislike my employer. I only dislike the fact that (like most companies) they're stupid enough to run parts of their business on microsoft software. > hence, he keeps on buying that Microsoft product line. If he > were smart, he'd > stick with the devil he partially knows, and let M$ go under. > SO much for > Billy-bashing ... Very clear cut. I wish everyone saw it that way. ;) > I'd like to see someone write a chunk of software that does > as much as this one > in 20 minutes, BTW. I don't think something this size will > even link in 20 > minutes. I was exaggerating to show my point. [snip] > longer the case. In fact, so much wierd stuff goes on > internally to the drive, > since the controller function is dedicated on each drive, > that it's hard to know > what is different between two drives. Too true, again. I blame whoever decided IDE hard drives were good to shoehorn into any system ;) (Maybe that was apple?) Regards, Chris Christopher Smith, Perl Developer Amdocs - Champaign, IL /usr/bin/perl -e ' print((~"\x95\xc4\xe3"^"Just Another Perl Hacker.")."\x08!\n"); ' From jhellige at earthlink.net Wed Nov 21 09:15:38 2001 From: jhellige at earthlink.net (Jeff Hellige) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:23:44 2005 Subject: OT: paging MAC expert(s) --- What's a Performa? In-Reply-To: <3B55D7F383B0D31197D9009027541CBF1170DEB8@cmiexch1.cmi.itds.com> References: <3B55D7F383B0D31197D9009027541CBF1170DEB8@cmiexch1.cmi.itds.com> Message-ID: <01Nov21.112717est.119343@gateway.mediacen.navy.mil> > > longer the case. In fact, so much wierd stuff goes on >> internally to the drive, >> since the controller function is dedicated on each drive, >> that it's hard to know >> what is different between two drives. > >Too true, again. I blame whoever decided IDE hard drives were good to >shoehorn into any system ;) (Maybe that was apple?) Actually, even the Amiga adopted IDE as it's standard hard disk interface before Apple did, as the Amiga 4000 (1992) came out roughly two years ahead of the Performa 630 (1994). Tandy was using the 8bit version of the IDE interface in it's SL/TL series machines as early as 1989, though only 4 drives were ever manufactured that were compatible with it. Jeff -- Home of the TRS-80 Model 2000 FAQ File http://www.cchaven.com http://www.geocities.com/siliconvalley/lakes/6757 From csmith at amdocs.com Wed Nov 21 09:44:44 2001 From: csmith at amdocs.com (Christopher Smith) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:23:44 2005 Subject: OT: paging MAC expert(s) --- What's a Performa? Message-ID: <3B55D7F383B0D31197D9009027541CBF1170DEB9@cmiexch1.cmi.itds.com> > -----Original Message----- > From: Iggy Drougge [mailto:optimus@canit.se] > What kind of bollocks is that? How do you expect to run a web > browser without > a TCP/IP stack? I suppose you wouldn't fancy Netscape on the > Mac any more, > since you had to buy MacTCP in order to run that. > Buyt then again, what browser doesn't require a TCP/IP stack > in order to be > used online? I believe there was at least one MS-DOS browser that didn't (doesn't) require a _separate_ stack. That is, since it is built into the browser. There is also slipknot(slipnot?), which acts as a front-end to a shell-account with lynx. :) (That's an interesting program...) Regards, Chris Christopher Smith, Perl Developer Amdocs - Champaign, IL /usr/bin/perl -e ' print((~"\x95\xc4\xe3"^"Just Another Perl Hacker.")."\x08!\n"); ' From bpope at wordstock.com Wed Nov 21 10:12:37 2001 From: bpope at wordstock.com (Bryan Pope) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:23:44 2005 Subject: OT: paging MAC expert(s) --- What's a Performa? In-Reply-To: <3B55D7F383B0D31197D9009027541CBF1170DEB9@cmiexch1.cmi.itds.com> from "Christopher Smith" at Nov 21, 01 09:44:44 am Message-ID: <200111211612.LAA30661@wordstock.com> > > What kind of bollocks is that? How do you expect to run a web > > browser without > > a TCP/IP stack? I suppose you wouldn't fancy Netscape on the > > Mac any more, > > since you had to buy MacTCP in order to run that. > > Buyt then again, what browser doesn't require a TCP/IP stack > > in order to be > > used online? > > I believe there was at least one MS-DOS browser that didn't (doesn't) > require a _separate_ stack. That is, since it is built into the browser. > > There is also slipknot(slipnot?), which acts as a front-end to a > shell-account with lynx. :) (That's an interesting program...) > omigod! Talk about latency issues!!! :D Bryan From edick at idcomm.com Wed Nov 21 10:55:17 2001 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:23:44 2005 Subject: OT: paging MAC expert(s) --- What's a Performa? References: <3B55D7F383B0D31197D9009027541CBF1170DEB9@cmiexch1.cmi.itds.com> Message-ID: <005201c172ad$4c9ab300$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> Just to get a feel for it, I used ICOMM for a short while. It worked as a graphic web browser from a shell account. However, it did its dirty-work by sending commands to the shell, so it put a considerable burden on the host. As a result, it wasn't popular with the free shell account providers of the early '90's. I'm thinking that the way Icomm worked, the host computer's IP stack is what was doing the work. Dick ----- Original Message ----- From: "Christopher Smith" To: Sent: Wednesday, November 21, 2001 8:44 AM Subject: RE: OT: paging MAC expert(s) --- What's a Performa? > > -----Original Message----- > > From: Iggy Drougge [mailto:optimus@canit.se] > > > What kind of bollocks is that? How do you expect to run a web > > browser without > > a TCP/IP stack? I suppose you wouldn't fancy Netscape on the > > Mac any more, > > since you had to buy MacTCP in order to run that. > > But then again, what browser doesn't require a TCP/IP stack > > in order to be > > used online? > > I believe there was at least one MS-DOS browser that didn't (doesn't) > require a _separate_ stack. That is, since it is built into the browser. > > There is also slipknot(slipnot?), which acts as a front-end to a > shell-account with lynx. :) (That's an interesting program...) > > Regards, > > Chris > > > Christopher Smith, Perl Developer > Amdocs - Champaign, IL > > /usr/bin/perl -e ' > print((~"\x95\xc4\xe3"^"Just Another Perl Hacker.")."\x08!\n"); > ' > > > From jhellige at earthlink.net Wed Nov 21 05:50:06 2001 From: jhellige at earthlink.net (Jeff Hellige) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:23:44 2005 Subject: Radio Shack abandons components In-Reply-To: <000401c17286$f4e643c0$b97ba8c0@ne.mediaone.net> References: <000401c17286$f4e643c0$b97ba8c0@ne.mediaone.net> Message-ID: <01Nov21.144447est.119225@gateway.mediacen.navy.mil> >Tandy Computers sold out to AST (who also bought Grid)...part of the >deal was that AST computers were sold at Radio Shack, the deal didn't >last that long. AST also sold out to their majority investor (Samsung?) >when they were nearly out of business. Unrelated is the >RadioShack-Compaq deal...similar to deal cut by Sprint-RadioShack. If I recall correctly, it was mid-1993 when the sale took place. AST didn't waste any time trimming what had been Tandy's computer arm, shutting down a lot of it in the process. I always liked AST's products, such as the SixPack Plus expansion boards. AST had some interesting ideas as to CPU upgradibility with their '386 line as well. Jeff -- Home of the TRS-80 Model 2000 FAQ File http://www.cchaven.com http://www.geocities.com/siliconvalley/lakes/6757 From bpope at wordstock.com Wed Nov 21 14:05:03 2001 From: bpope at wordstock.com (Bryan Pope) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:23:44 2005 Subject: Radio Shack abandons components In-Reply-To: <01Nov21.144447est.119225@gateway.mediacen.navy.mil> from "Jeff Hellige" at Nov 21, 01 07:50:06 am Message-ID: <200111212005.PAA16587@wordstock.com> > > >Tandy Computers sold out to AST (who also bought Grid)...part of the > >deal was that AST computers were sold at Radio Shack, the deal didn't > >last that long. AST also sold out to their majority investor (Samsung?) > >when they were nearly out of business. Unrelated is the > >RadioShack-Compaq deal...similar to deal cut by Sprint-RadioShack. > > If I recall correctly, it was mid-1993 when the sale took > place. AST didn't waste any time trimming what had been Tandy's > computer arm, shutting down a lot of it in the process. I always > liked AST's products, such as the SixPack Plus expansion boards. AST > had some interesting ideas as to CPU upgradibility with their '386 > line as well. > It is always nice to see a company buy out another company just so they can rape it for all its worth before throwing that companies technology in some vault so no one else can use it. Bryan From jhellige at earthlink.net Wed Nov 21 08:22:52 2001 From: jhellige at earthlink.net (Jeff Hellige) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:23:44 2005 Subject: Radio Shack abandons components In-Reply-To: <7A9BACCEF0171D4FB77019F5104CDD37225958@jeffserver.tegjeff.com> References: <7A9BACCEF0171D4FB77019F5104CDD37225958@jeffserver.tegjeff.com> Message-ID: <01Nov21.103432est.119337@gateway.mediacen.navy.mil> > > I've noticed that even the 'bargain bin' area that used to be >> tucked back in one corner of most stores seems to be gone as well. >> Used to be able to get some cool older discontinued stuff from that >> section, including Model 2000 stuff. Unfortunately I also passed on >> a portable disk drive in the same area at one point. > >The portable hard drive? I've got one of those, I really >do need to get my 2000 out and play with it for Christmas... I was referring to the portable floppy for the Tandy Model 100 and 102 laptops. My Model 2000HD tends to stay set up next to my desk, as I get quite a few requests for info on the machine. I still use the BASIC demo, which was used in the catalog shots of the machine as well, whenever I want to show off it's graphics capabilities. I've been trying without success to get a copy of the Model 2000's driver disk for Windows 1. Jeff -- Home of the TRS-80 Model 2000 FAQ File http://www.cchaven.com http://www.geocities.com/siliconvalley/lakes/6757 From jrice at texoma.net Wed Nov 21 09:31:03 2001 From: jrice at texoma.net (James L. Rice) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:23:44 2005 Subject: Radio Shack abandons components References: <7A9BACCEF0171D4FB77019F5104CDD37225958@jeffserver.tegjeff.com> Message-ID: <3BFBC8B7.90400@texoma.net> I think he was talking about the PDD for a Model 100. BTW, I have a almost complete M100 set I'm putting up on ebay during Thanksgiving. It is a 32k M100, PDD-1, two printer cables, two bar code readers, two cassette cables, the blue nylon soft case, acoustic cups, direct modem cable, all manuals, a couple of other books, two AC adapters, and a complete brown binder set of all M100 software published by Rat Shack for the M100. I've had the M100 since new in 1984. I just don't have room or time tp play with all of my toys, so I've decided to concentrate on my Indy, my Sparcs and my NeXT machines. My Dimension cube is fully outfitted and on the 'net. The only piece of NeXT hardware that I need is a second NeXT color printer for the slab and a Turbo motherboard for the cube...unless Santa wants to drop a Nitro or Pyro board in my stocking! James http://home.texoma.net/~jrice Douglas Quebbeman wrote: >>>I live just north of Fort Worth, and the big Radio Shack "Outlet Store". >>>They have a lot of discontinued things, and a lot of components. I assume >>>they'll always have them. >>> >> I've noticed that even the 'bargain bin' area that used to be >>tucked back in one corner of most stores seems to be gone as well. >>Used to be able to get some cool older discontinued stuff from that >>section, including Model 2000 stuff. Unfortunately I also passed on >>a portable disk drive in the same area at one point. >> > >The portable hard drive? I've got one of those, I really >do need to get my 2000 out and play with it for Christmas... > >-dq > >. > From jhellige at earthlink.net Wed Nov 21 09:07:47 2001 From: jhellige at earthlink.net (Jeff Hellige) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:23:44 2005 Subject: Radio Shack abandons components In-Reply-To: <3BFBC8B7.90400@texoma.net> References: <7A9BACCEF0171D4FB77019F5104CDD37225958@jeffserver.tegjeff.com> <3BFBC8B7.90400@texoma.net> Message-ID: <01Nov21.111926est.119343@gateway.mediacen.navy.mil> > and my NeXT machines. My Dimension cube is fully outfitted and on >the 'net. The only piece of NeXT hardware that I need is a >second NeXT color printer for the slab and a Turbo motherboard for >the cube...unless Santa wants to drop a Nitro or Pyro board in my >stocking! You have a Dimension Cube and you still want more??! Some people are never happy! I switched my LAN at home from the trial of Surfdoubler to the registered IPNetRouter and am having a blast with my NeXT slab on the 'net, especially since adding the second NIC to the G3. Jeff -- Home of the TRS-80 Model 2000 FAQ File http://www.cchaven.com http://www.geocities.com/siliconvalley/lakes/6757 From Antonio.Carlini at riverstonenet.com Wed Nov 21 09:21:03 2001 From: Antonio.Carlini at riverstonenet.com (Carlini, Antonio) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:23:44 2005 Subject: FreeTradeZone site moving to subscription-only for older part s Message-ID: <3820E2042B6ED5118DC200D0B78EDC4706623C@exc-reo1> > >Wget. > > I thought you did not like wget. > Regardless of whether he likes it or not, since you have to get past the initial form where you type your search query, there is no simple way to download their whole database. I believe that they used to make some CDs available (presumably for a fee). It might be easier to get hold of those (assuming the old scanned manuals and datasheets are on there!). Antonio From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Nov 21 14:13:40 2001 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:23:44 2005 Subject: 1771 floppy controller questions In-Reply-To: from "Tothwolf" at Nov 21, 1 03:18:36 am Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1924 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20011121/575ba43a/attachment.ksh From edick at idcomm.com Wed Nov 21 14:46:34 2001 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:23:44 2005 Subject: 1771 floppy controller questions References: Message-ID: <001f01c172cd$9bcc3c80$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> For troubleshooting possible RAM problems, it's really easy simply to hook a 64Kx8 SRAM on top of the DRAMs, grabbing the addresses before the decoder and multiplexers, and use OR'd nCAS to the DRAMs as the output enable to the SRAM. You simply disable the data from the DRAMs by pulling the pins out of the sockets. The result is that your system works using the SRAM, yet you can poke around all you like in the DRAM array and the associated timing logic. Dick ----- Original Message ----- From: "Tony Duell" To: Sent: Wednesday, November 21, 2001 1:13 PM Subject: Re: 1771 floppy controller questions > > > > On Wed, 21 Nov 2001, Tony Duell wrote: > > > > > > makes sense that they changed that part of the design. I own both a model > > > > 3 and 4, neither of which currently work. Any ideas on where a service > > > > manual can be found for either of these? I also have a model 2 that worked > > > > > > I have at least schematics for the M3 and non-gate-array M4. What's the > > > problem with your machines? What do they do at switch-on? > > > > It has been a number of years since I powered them up. Right now I think > > they are both sitting disassembled in a couple of large boxes. I'm in the > > When yopu have time to get them out again, let us know (or let me know), > and we can discuss troubleshooting them. > > > process of construction of a building just for my old hardware, so once > > that is done, I'll pull both of them out and bench them and see what their > > problems were. I think the model 3 would start up, but just plain lock up > > about the time it was going to boot. I think it may be a ram problem. The > > Mybe RAM. Most disk problems on the M3 and M4 are either the 1793 chip > (I've had to replace a couple) or more likely that infernal ribbon cable > between the CPU board and the disk controller. If you don't care about > your machine being unoriginal, you can use 40 way IDC cable and > connectors to replace it (just use 1 row of pins in the connector to > replace the 20 pin SIL socket on the CPU board or disk controller). > You're only using 20 wires in the cable, which is something of a waste, > but it's the easiest fix I've found [1]. > > > model 4 didn't power up at all if I remember correctly. > > In which case check the outputs of the power supplies -- both of them -- > before doing anything else. > > [1] For the HP97 owners on this list, 26 way IDC cable/connectors and pin > headers can be made to replace the ribbon cable between the logic board > and the card reader. It cures a lot of card reader problems :-) > > -tony > > From tothwolf at concentric.net Wed Nov 21 17:43:18 2001 From: tothwolf at concentric.net (Tothwolf) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:23:44 2005 Subject: 1771 floppy controller questions In-Reply-To: <001f01c172cd$9bcc3c80$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> Message-ID: On Wed, 21 Nov 2001, Richard Erlacher wrote: > From: "Tony Duell" > > > Mybe RAM. Most disk problems on the M3 and M4 are either the 1793 chip > > (I've had to replace a couple) or more likely that infernal ribbon cable > > between the CPU board and the disk controller. If you don't care about > > your machine being unoriginal, you can use 40 way IDC cable and > > connectors to replace it (just use 1 row of pins in the connector to > > replace the 20 pin SIL socket on the CPU board or disk controller). > > You're only using 20 wires in the cable, which is something of a waste, > > but it's the easiest fix I've found [1]. > > For troubleshooting possible RAM problems, it's really easy simply to hook a > 64Kx8 SRAM on top of the DRAMs, grabbing the addresses before the decoder and > multiplexers, and use OR'd nCAS to the DRAMs as the output enable to the SRAM. > You simply disable the data from the DRAMs by pulling the pins out of the > sockets. The result is that your system works using the SRAM, yet you can poke > around all you like in the DRAM array and the associated timing logic. I bought a used dip style dram tester set about a year ago. It only cost me $5, and I figured it might be useful for testing all the old 64k and 256k drams I seem to run into in old pcs. I haven't yet had a chance to use it yet. Maybe it will help with these old boxes... -Toth From tothwolf at concentric.net Wed Nov 21 14:21:11 2001 From: tothwolf at concentric.net (Tothwolf) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:23:44 2005 Subject: Toshiba disk & DSDD floppy In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Wed, 21 Nov 2001, Chris wrote: > >DSDD 3.5 drives are rare too, as most dealers threw them away. I have a > >small stash, but I'm haning on to them as they are used in Amigas. > > I have one DSDD 3.5" drive (720k drive). I *think* it works. It is a > standard size 3.5" drive, but the face plate is part of the unit, and it > is for a 5.25" hole, so you really need a 5.25 half height bay to fit it. If his machine is a Toshiba laptop, they use a special drive anyway. If the drive acts funny, could be the cmos battery has died...I think those old Toshibas use a small nicad pack. -Toth From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Nov 21 14:08:27 2001 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:23:44 2005 Subject: RA60 drives anywhere? And stuff... In-Reply-To: <20011120235152.A24911-100000@lepton.subatomix.com> from "Jeffrey S. Sharp" at Nov 20, 1 11:54:49 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 601 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20011121/56bf705a/attachment.ksh From bpope at wordstock.com Wed Nov 21 14:50:33 2001 From: bpope at wordstock.com (Bryan Pope) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:23:44 2005 Subject: RA60 drives anywhere? And stuff... In-Reply-To: from "Tony Duell" at Nov 21, 01 08:08:27 pm Message-ID: <200111212050.PAA28354@wordstock.com> > > > > > On Tue, 20 Nov 2001, Tony Duell wrote: > > > > > Last time I was in a PC shop, they were selling 'line printer > > > paper'... What was it? Poor-ish quality A4 sheets, like you'd use in > > > a laser printer or copier. Not fanfold, not sproketed, certainly not > > > greenbar. > > > > I bought a box of wide, greenbar paper at my local OfficeMax. They had > > quite a few boxes in inventory. > > I am pretty sure you can still get real fanfold paper over here (if not, > I've got a few boxes...). My comment was that now laser printer/copier > paper is called 'line printer paper' by clueless PC shops... > The company where I work still use dot-matrix printers with fanfold paper. I am a programmer here and would hate to use anything else for program listings! We also still use 5 1/4" diskettes for distribution of some of our software. Also 1200, 2400 and 9600 bps modems. And a lot of our software is still console based. Cheers, Bryan From mythtech at Mac.com Wed Nov 21 14:48:10 2001 From: mythtech at Mac.com (Chris) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:23:44 2005 Subject: Mac Restore CDs/Manuals Message-ID: >Unfortunately, Gamba's site has been closed by those folks at Apple that >received their training from M$. Read "cease and desist". The Heretics >sucked the site before his ISP cut it off. I knew he had some trouble originally. From the story I heard (well, peiced together), he originally was hosting the manuals directly. Apple complained, so he changed the links to their servers. I figured if Apple complained once, it was only a matter of time before he was shut down entirely. Thanks for the new link... this time I was smart enough to save the page locally, so I can stick it on my web site. I think I will take some time next week to just start pulling all the manuals down (CD-Rs are such a wonderful thing) -chris From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Nov 21 15:32:39 2001 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:23:44 2005 Subject: Mac Restore CDs/Manuals In-Reply-To: from "Chris" at Nov 21, 1 12:45:23 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 2563 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20011121/64f2c0f6/attachment.ksh From dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com Wed Nov 21 15:52:46 2001 From: dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com (Douglas Quebbeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:23:44 2005 Subject: Mac Restore CDs/Manuals Message-ID: <7A9BACCEF0171D4FB77019F5104CDD37225960@jeffserver.tegjeff.com> > Unfortunately, Gamba's site has been closed by those folks at Apple that > received their training from M$. Read "cease and desist". The Heretics > sucked the site before his ISP cut it off. I'm thinking that perhaps Apple knew how to do this first, and may well have gotten the leson from Xerox.. >Try > > Nice! Grabbed quite a few of these... From mythtech at Mac.com Wed Nov 21 16:58:31 2001 From: mythtech at Mac.com (Chris) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:23:44 2005 Subject: Mac Restore CDs/Manuals Message-ID: >I assume these are boardswapper guides and don't include useful >information like schematics, right? Exactly. They are wonderful when you are trying to do things like open a Powerbook to repair the latch spring or the mouse button (both things that are prone to break on the 190/5300/3400/G3 case design), but totally useless if you want to know how to repair the fried power supply on a 1400 (swapping yes, repairing no). But that jives with apple and the Mac... they have ALWAYS had a board swap approach to repair. Even when the repair is something simple. So if that is all they approve doing, why bother making public (or in the case of these, pseudo public) manuals that cover anything more detailed. I would LOVE to find another good book on actually repairing Macs (The Dead Mac Scrolls was wonderful, but it only covers thru the II IIRC... I want something that will tell me how to get my PB 1400s power supply working again, or repair/replace the fried printer port on my 6500... that is the kind of book I want to find) >Now, I guess I've come to expect that computer service centres can't >trace a fault in a circuit of 4 components. But if they're going to >board-swap, shouldn't they just swap the defective board? And not also >replace an expensive PSU that's got nothing wrong with it? I know around here, it is very hard to find a "decent" repair shop. That is, one that knows what they are doing, won't try to rip you off, and can do economical repairs. For a while, the local CompUSA (big national computer retail chain for those not in the US), had a GREAT tech. He could do component level repairs, and did them on a regular basis. It was not unusual to take a computer in, and find that it was repaired for the diagnostic fee ($65), plus a dollar or two in parts.... guess what... the CompUSA fired the guy... why? Because they could make more money selling new boards then repairing the broken ones. They looked at it in terms of, they can make no markup on a 50 cent transistor, and no additional labor for the guy to spend 5 minutes replacing it... OR, they can make a 20-30% markup on a new motherboard, AND 2 hours of labor (@ $65/hr) for the tech to replace it, and reset the windows installation to accept it... AND they could use brain dead, no training people at $10/hr to do the work (compared to I am sure a much higher rate for the guy that knew what he was doing). And then you just have apple, that doesn't authorize "custom" repairs on its parts... if it is warranty, or an "authorized" apple repair, it is done as a board swap, and only to the detail they specify (which in many cases means far more gets replaced then needed)... the tech mentioned above used to ask, do you want an apple authorized repair (needed if it was warranty, or you wanted to maintain a warranty if the repair itself isn't covered), or did you want an unauthorized, but cheaper and faster repair. Most people I know took the unauthorized repair for all units out of warranty (can't void what you don't have) -chris From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Nov 21 14:32:15 2001 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:23:44 2005 Subject: Mac Restore CDs/Manuals In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20011121114725.02d6fd00@enigma> from "Dan Veeneman" at Nov 21, 1 11:53:07 am Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 890 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20011121/0873f536/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Nov 21 14:35:02 2001 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:23:44 2005 Subject: I'm guessing you have solved this problem... In-Reply-To: <3.0.5.32.20011121112417.008c7100@ubanproductions.com> from "Tom Uban" at Nov 21, 1 11:24:17 am Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 629 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20011121/5cba9c25/attachment.ksh From edick at idcomm.com Wed Nov 21 17:42:50 2001 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:23:44 2005 Subject: I'm guessing you have solved this problem... References: Message-ID: <002d01c172e6$3b868240$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> Just how fast do these devices have to be, and how deep are they? I've got some 35ns 8kx8 CMOS EPROMs, in skinny DIP packages, and I'd imagine that other configurations are out there as well. These are contemporaries of the 25ns 22V10 UV-erasable PALs from CYPRESS. That would date them about 1990. Small bipolar PROMs were often used like PALs, which were not yet popular, or were more expensive than the PROMs. I've not seen EPROMs that small, however, but it's likely a big EPROM would work if it's fast enough. In a case where the PROM is a logic element rather than a program store, a PAL could well be substituted. Dick ----- Original Message ----- From: "Tony Duell" To: Sent: Wednesday, November 21, 2001 1:35 PM Subject: Re: I'm guessing you have solved this problem... > > > > Hi Tony, > > Presumably this is directed at me? > > > > > What have you used to replace the various DEC bipolar ROMs in an 11/45 > > CPU? > > I've never had to replace one. If I did, I'd try to get a similar bipolar > PROM from any manufacturer (there are still quite a number around, even > if they're not being made) and program it from the tables in the > printset. > > Other than that, I'm not sure. This sort of logic is not going to fit > well into an FPGA or CPLD, I think. Are there fast enough EPROMS now (I'm > out of touch with the latest devices, but I think I remember seeing some > fairly fast devices in the databooks). > > -tony > > From edick at idcomm.com Wed Nov 21 14:40:38 2001 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:23:44 2005 Subject: OT: paging MAC expert(s) --- What's a Performa? References: <200111210837.IAA09707@citadel.metropolis.local> Message-ID: <000d01c172cc$c77df4a0$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> Well, both Netscape and Internet Explorer were based on the already quite complete work done on NCSA MOSAIC, which I used under Win3.1x for a time, along with NetCruiser, which was Netcom's offering for that purpose. Both of them looked quite adequate at the time, but the web content has "evolved" considerably. Both Netscape and Internet Explorer attempted to use what MOSAIC did already, plus they added mail capability to it, which made little sense at the time, to me at least. Email handlers were everywhere, but graphic web browsers were not so plentiful. Doing email through a shell account was pretty painful, with the slow serial link handlers that UNIX shell accounts offered. The Windows-based email handlers embedded in Internet Explorer, Netscape, etc, or Eudora, which was separate, were all MUCH easier and quicker to deal with. I've watched both Netscape and IE wander back and forth between higher and lower levels of integration but haven't seen much improvement. Of course, it not hard to confuse change with progress. Dick ----- Original Message ----- From: "Stan Barr" To: Sent: Wednesday, November 21, 2001 1:37 AM Subject: Re: OT: paging MAC expert(s) --- What's a Performa? > Hi, > > Douglas Quebbeman said: > > > > It works pretty much the same as Netscape, just looks a bit different, > > > (especially if you install alternave buttons etc.) - nothing you can't > > > easily understand from a litle Netscape experience. > > > > > > Now Cyberdog - that *was* different ;-) > > > > And still is. I've got it running on the WGS8150/80 sitting > > behind me. But Cyberdog could well rise again, under Windows... > > Ve-e-e-ry Interesting! > > Yeah, I keep Cyberdog around if only to show people that web browsing > doesn't *have* to look like Exploder/Nutscrape ;-) > -- > Cheers, > Stan Barr stanb@dial.pipex.com > > The future was never like this! > > > From spectre at stockholm.ptloma.edu Wed Nov 21 17:36:04 2001 From: spectre at stockholm.ptloma.edu (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:23:44 2005 Subject: OT: paging MAC expert(s) --- What's a Performa? In-Reply-To: <000d01c172cc$c77df4a0$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> from Richard Erlacher at "Nov 21, 1 01:40:38 pm" Message-ID: <200111212336.PAA12136@stockholm.ptloma.edu> > Doing email through a shell account was pretty painful, with the slow serial > link handlers that UNIX shell accounts offered. The Windows-based email > handlers embedded in Internet Explorer, Netscape, etc, or Eudora, which was > separate, were all MUCH easier and quicker to deal with. Maybe Pine sucked over a serial line, but Elm is much less termcap-spendy. I still use Elm to read my E-mail. Man was meant to read mail on-spool. -- ----------------------------- personal page: http://www.armory.com/~spectre/ -- Cameron Kaiser, Point Loma Nazarene University * ckaiser@stockholm.ptloma.edu -- The new Tourette Syndrome movie: Twitch and Shout! -- John Waters ---------- From egendorf at mit.edu Wed Nov 21 15:08:44 2001 From: egendorf at mit.edu (Andrew Egendorf) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:23:44 2005 Subject: Remington Rand 409-2/2R Message-ID: Hi! I am helping to gather original documents and/or artifacts concerning the Remington Rand 409-series computers for the Remington Rand museum being set up in Rowayton, CT. The models of interest are the 409-2 and the 409-2R. We are interested in documenting the location of all surviving artifacts, but also would like to acquire particularly interesting items by donation or purchase. If you have any original documents or artifacts (even as minor as Remington Rand brand punch cards), please e-mail me at: egendorf@mit.edu. Thanks. From dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com Wed Nov 21 15:19:00 2001 From: dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com (Douglas Quebbeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:23:44 2005 Subject: 50th anniversary of the routine business use of computers Message-ID: <7A9BACCEF0171D4FB77019F5104CDD3722595E@jeffserver.tegjeff.com> > "Feldman, Robert" said: > > I was looking at the Economist (Nov 17th) at the library last night and saw > > the following (p. 76) > > > > The Lyons Electronic Office (LEO) began use 11-17-1951 in a British catering > > company. > > etc... > > See also: http://www.leo-computers.org.uk/ Business was fast on the heels of government... earlier that year in June, The UNIVAC I was installed a few blocks from where I'm typing this (historical nobody-ever-heard-of-Jeffersonville-Indiana). -dq From dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com Wed Nov 21 15:44:31 2001 From: dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com (Douglas Quebbeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:23:44 2005 Subject: Radio Shack abandons components Message-ID: <7A9BACCEF0171D4FB77019F5104CDD3722595F@jeffserver.tegjeff.com> > It is always nice to see a company buy out another company just so they can > rape it for all its worth before throwing that companies technology in some > vault so no one else can use it. Can you say "Hewlett-Packard"? Note to HP: Liberate the Apollo systems NOW! -dq From rigdonj at intellistar.net Wed Nov 21 16:09:32 2001 From: rigdonj at intellistar.net (Joe) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:23:44 2005 Subject: Say it ain't so, Joe! In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20011121170932.007b9810@mailhost.intellistar.net> Hi Steve, You bet! What time will you be around? I just send you a message about an Intel MDS-800. Joe At 11:30 AM 11/21/01 -0500, you wrote: >Joe, > >Was thinking about coming to the area to visit some friends on Friday. You >gonna be around? > >SteveRob > >_________________________________________________________________ >Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp > > From rigdonj at intellistar.net Wed Nov 21 16:11:53 2001 From: rigdonj at intellistar.net (Joe) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:23:44 2005 Subject: Say it ain't so, Joe! In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20011121171153.007a3eb0@mailhost.intellistar.net> Linc, I'm on the east side of Orlando, Florida. I'm two miles north of UCF (University of Central Florida) and between UCF and the town of Oviedo. I'm just off of Alafaya trail. My address is 2960 Lowery Dr. Oviedo, 32765 you can find it on any of the on-line maps. You're welcome to whatever you can haul away. Joe At 11:31 AM 11/21/01 EST, you wrote: >Love to help "rescue" some of the HP stuff - where are you located? > >-Linc Fessenden > >In The Beginning there was nothing, which exploded - Yeah right... > >Calculating in binary code is as easy as 01,10,11. > > > From jss at subatomix.com Wed Nov 21 16:27:34 2001 From: jss at subatomix.com (Jeffrey S. Sharp) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:23:44 2005 Subject: Interesting find In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20011121162406.J26523-100000@lepton.subatomix.com> All right, now this has me irked. The 9825 is still at the place, but they won't sell it to me today. Their normal hours are 8-5 MTWF, but they only sell "to the public" on Tuesday from 11-4. How whacked up is that!? -- Jeffrey S. Sharp jss@subatomix.com From spectre at stockholm.ptloma.edu Wed Nov 21 17:47:25 2001 From: spectre at stockholm.ptloma.edu (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:23:44 2005 Subject: NeXTs (was Re: Radio Shack abandons components) In-Reply-To: <01Nov21.111926est.119343@gateway.mediacen.navy.mil> from Jeff Hellige at "Nov 21, 1 11:07:47 am" Message-ID: <200111212347.PAA12218@stockholm.ptloma.edu> > > and my NeXT machines. My Dimension cube is fully outfitted and on > >the 'net. The only piece of NeXT hardware that I need is a > >second NeXT color printer for the slab and a Turbo motherboard for > >the cube...unless Santa wants to drop a Nitro or Pyro board in my > >stocking! > > You have a Dimension Cube and you still want more??! Some > people are never happy! I switched my LAN at home from the trial > of Surfdoubler to the registered IPNetRouter and am having a blast > with my NeXT slab on the 'net, especially since adding the second NIC > to the G3. I'd still like to get my hands on *a* NeXT. Does someone have some extras stockpiled somewhere they might be willing to do a deal with? Somenoe on the list a while back found a whole load of them but I never heard back from the guy and I don't remember who that was, if you're still out there and still have some and you read sentences this awkward. :-) -- ----------------------------- personal page: http://www.armory.com/~spectre/ -- Cameron Kaiser, Point Loma Nazarene University * ckaiser@stockholm.ptloma.edu -- Life is like a simile. ----------------------------------------------------- From jpero at sympatico.ca Wed Nov 21 13:18:48 2001 From: jpero at sympatico.ca (jpero@sympatico.ca) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:23:44 2005 Subject: 1771 floppy controller questions In-Reply-To: References: <001f01c172cd$9bcc3c80$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> Message-ID: <20011122001522.NNIZ13234.tomts8-srv.bellnexxia.net@duron> > Date: Wed, 21 Nov 2001 17:43:18 -0600 (CST) > From: Tothwolf > To: > Subject: Re: 1771 floppy controller questions > Reply-to: classiccmp@classiccmp.org > I bought a used dip style dram tester set about a year ago. It only cost > me $5, and I figured it might be useful for testing all the old 64k and > 256k drams I seem to run into in old pcs. I haven't yet had a chance to > use it yet. Maybe it will help with these old boxes... Does work great but I like the kind that allows you to stress DRAM by "overclocking" beyond it's speed rating by twisting that knob. Example, that part fall over at just 3ns over rated speed, naah plonk! It will fail running warm anyway when machine is closed up. Only limitation it only works w/ 256K and 1M, 1 bit and 4 bits. Cheers, Wizard > > -Toth From tothwolf at concentric.net Thu Nov 22 04:57:34 2001 From: tothwolf at concentric.net (Tothwolf) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:23:44 2005 Subject: 1771 floppy controller questions In-Reply-To: <20011122001522.NNIZ13234.tomts8-srv.bellnexxia.net@duron> Message-ID: On Wed, 21 Nov 2001 jpero@sympatico.ca wrote: > > From: Tothwolf > > > I bought a used dip style dram tester set about a year ago. It only cost > > me $5, and I figured it might be useful for testing all the old 64k and > > 256k drams I seem to run into in old pcs. I haven't yet had a chance to > > use it yet. Maybe it will help with these old boxes... > > Does work great but I like the kind that allows you to stress DRAM by > "overclocking" beyond it's speed rating by twisting that knob. > Example, that part fall over at just 3ns over rated speed, naah > plonk! It will fail running warm anyway when machine is closed up. > > Only limitation it only works w/ 256K and 1M, 1 bit and 4 bits. This may be the set I found. It has a checker and a speed verifier. I guess I should pull them out and see just what kinds of chips they work with. I didn't expect them to work with 1M chips, based on how old they looked, but if thats the case, they may not be usable for the 64k chips I was hoping to use them with. -Toth From tothwolf at concentric.net Wed Nov 21 18:05:24 2001 From: tothwolf at concentric.net (Tothwolf) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:23:44 2005 Subject: 1771 floppy controller questions In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Wed, 21 Nov 2001, Tony Duell wrote: > > It has been a number of years since I powered them up. Right now I think > > they are both sitting disassembled in a couple of large boxes. I'm in the > > When yopu have time to get them out again, let us know (or let me know), > and we can discuss troubleshooting them. It's more a matter of room than time right now, as my old "shop" is packed floor to ceiling with computers, parts, and so on. My benches are also currently covered up with even more parts and boxes. > > process of construction of a building just for my old hardware, so once > > that is done, I'll pull both of them out and bench them and see what their > > problems were. I think the model 3 would start up, but just plain lock up > > about the time it was going to boot. I think it may be a ram problem. The > > Mybe RAM. Most disk problems on the M3 and M4 are either the 1793 chip > (I've had to replace a couple) or more likely that infernal ribbon cable > between the CPU board and the disk controller. If you don't care about > your machine being unoriginal, you can use 40 way IDC cable and > connectors to replace it (just use 1 row of pins in the connector to > replace the 20 pin SIL socket on the CPU board or disk controller). > You're only using 20 wires in the cable, which is something of a waste, > but it's the easiest fix I've found [1]. I seem to remember one of these machines had a chip in one of the ram banks that was missing a pin. It looked like it had corroded off. It was a ceramic package with gold plated leads. The ribbon in both computers was in somewhat bad shape. I was planning to replace it with either a similar cable, or an IDC cable, as you suggested. My model 1's keyboard cable had the same problem, and I replaced it with a short bit of ribbon cable soldered directly to the boards. I'm planning to replace that again with something better the next time I work on it. > > model 4 didn't power up at all if I remember correctly. > > In which case check the outputs of the power supplies -- both of them -- > before doing anything else. I really don't remember if I got that far with the model 4. I may not have even checked the 2 switching supplies, since at the time I bought it, I didn't have any free time to spend on troubleshooting. I think I saw some sort of temperature alarm/sensor plugged into the output of one of the supplies in one of these machines. Was that a 3rd party add-on or something that came standard? -Toth From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Nov 21 18:17:44 2001 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:23:44 2005 Subject: 1771 floppy controller questions In-Reply-To: from "Tothwolf" at Nov 21, 1 06:05:24 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 3207 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20011122/de6801e4/attachment.ksh From edick at idcomm.com Wed Nov 21 18:48:22 2001 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:23:44 2005 Subject: 1771 floppy controller questions References: Message-ID: <001601c172ef$62e353a0$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> Back in the very late '70's a product similar to flex PCB material was introduced as a replacement for a ribbon cable, that fit in a 20-pin SIP socket, in this case, yet weren't custom circuits. I've got some of that stuff around, as a sample pack I got back then yet haven't used. Unfortunately, when I opened them to examine 'em, I didn't save the label, so I can't give you a product name. I thought of this bacause ribbon cable soldered to PCB's always seemed to me to be a source of trouble. I had keyboards connected with soldered ribbon for some time and it seems to me that I was frequently restripping and resoldering, while those attached with connectors occasionally required that I check that the connectors were securely plugged, but nothing else. Dick ----- Original Message ----- From: "Tothwolf" To: Sent: Wednesday, November 21, 2001 5:05 PM Subject: Re: 1771 floppy controller questions > On Wed, 21 Nov 2001, Tony Duell wrote: > > > > It has been a number of years since I powered them up. Right now I think > > > they are both sitting disassembled in a couple of large boxes. I'm in the > > > > When yopu have time to get them out again, let us know (or let me know), > > and we can discuss troubleshooting them. > > It's more a matter of room than time right now, as my old "shop" is packed > floor to ceiling with computers, parts, and so on. My benches are also > currently covered up with even more parts and boxes. > > > > process of construction of a building just for my old hardware, so once > > > that is done, I'll pull both of them out and bench them and see what their > > > problems were. I think the model 3 would start up, but just plain lock up > > > about the time it was going to boot. I think it may be a ram problem. The > > > > Mybe RAM. Most disk problems on the M3 and M4 are either the 1793 chip > > (I've had to replace a couple) or more likely that infernal ribbon cable > > between the CPU board and the disk controller. If you don't care about > > your machine being unoriginal, you can use 40 way IDC cable and > > connectors to replace it (just use 1 row of pins in the connector to > > replace the 20 pin SIL socket on the CPU board or disk controller). > > You're only using 20 wires in the cable, which is something of a waste, > > but it's the easiest fix I've found [1]. > > I seem to remember one of these machines had a chip in one of the ram > banks that was missing a pin. It looked like it had corroded off. It was a > ceramic package with gold plated leads. > > The ribbon in both computers was in somewhat bad shape. I was planning to > replace it with either a similar cable, or an IDC cable, as you suggested. > My model 1's keyboard cable had the same problem, and I replaced it with a > short bit of ribbon cable soldered directly to the boards. I'm planning to > replace that again with something better the next time I work on it. > > > > model 4 didn't power up at all if I remember correctly. > > > > In which case check the outputs of the power supplies -- both of them -- > > before doing anything else. > > I really don't remember if I got that far with the model 4. I may not have > even checked the 2 switching supplies, since at the time I bought it, I > didn't have any free time to spend on troubleshooting. > > I think I saw some sort of temperature alarm/sensor plugged into the > output of one of the supplies in one of these machines. Was that a 3rd > party add-on or something that came standard? > > -Toth > > From edick at idcomm.com Wed Nov 21 18:40:49 2001 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:23:44 2005 Subject: 1771 floppy controller questions References: Message-ID: <000e01c172ee$555b1520$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> You'll want to be careful with the early DRAMs, as they used 3 supply rails, and your tester of 5-volt-only DRAMs may die from application to a 3-supply DRAM. Dick ----- Original Message ----- From: "Tothwolf" To: Sent: Wednesday, November 21, 2001 4:43 PM Subject: Re: 1771 floppy controller questions > On Wed, 21 Nov 2001, Richard Erlacher wrote: > > From: "Tony Duell" > > > > > Mybe RAM. Most disk problems on the M3 and M4 are either the 1793 chip > > > (I've had to replace a couple) or more likely that infernal ribbon cable > > > between the CPU board and the disk controller. If you don't care about > > > your machine being unoriginal, you can use 40 way IDC cable and > > > connectors to replace it (just use 1 row of pins in the connector to > > > replace the 20 pin SIL socket on the CPU board or disk controller). > > > You're only using 20 wires in the cable, which is something of a waste, > > > but it's the easiest fix I've found [1]. > > > > For troubleshooting possible RAM problems, it's really easy simply to hook a > > 64Kx8 SRAM on top of the DRAMs, grabbing the addresses before the decoder and > > multiplexers, and use OR'd nCAS to the DRAMs as the output enable to the SRAM. > > You simply disable the data from the DRAMs by pulling the pins out of the > > sockets. The result is that your system works using the SRAM, yet you can poke > > around all you like in the DRAM array and the associated timing logic. > > I bought a used dip style dram tester set about a year ago. It only cost > me $5, and I figured it might be useful for testing all the old 64k and > 256k drams I seem to run into in old pcs. I haven't yet had a chance to > use it yet. Maybe it will help with these old boxes... > > -Toth > > From stanb at dial.pipex.com Wed Nov 21 15:34:32 2001 From: stanb at dial.pipex.com (Stan Barr) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:23:44 2005 Subject: OT: paging MAC expert(s) --- What's a Performa? In-Reply-To: Your message of "Wed, 21 Nov 2001 13:40:38 MST." <000d01c172cc$c77df4a0$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> Message-ID: <200111212134.VAA17236@citadel.metropolis.local> Hi, "Richard Erlacher" said: > > I've watched both Netscape and IE wander back and forth between higher and lower > levels of integration but haven't seen much improvement. Of course, it not hard > to confuse change with progress. > True, but Cyberdog was *fundamentally* different. It was basically a technology demonstrator for Apple's OpenDoc. As Doug Quebbeman said earlier: " Cyberdog was essentially a container for a series of net-enabled OpenDoc components." Using the Cyberdog doc builder, you could basically roll your own browser with your own graphics, buttons and only those functions you wanted. All elements opened in their own movable re-sizable windows rather than in a huge monolithic window. As Apple said: "What is Cyberdog? Cyberdog is a suite of Internet components that allows you to browse the World Wide Web, receive and send e-mail, read articles from Usenet newsgroups, browse AppleTalk zones and servers, exchange files with FTP, and log into other computers with Telnet. Cyberdog provides tight integration between these components, and with other OpenDoc applications." Altogether a fine piece of work for 1994. Sadly died when OpenDoc was killed off...which makes it obsolete technology and (nearly) on topic! -- Cheers, Stan Barr stanb@dial.pipex.com The future was never like this! From optimus at canit.se Wed Nov 21 18:08:46 2001 From: optimus at canit.se (Iggy Drougge) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:23:44 2005 Subject: OT: paging MAC expert(s) --- What's a Performa? In-Reply-To: <01Nov21.112717est.119343@gateway.mediacen.navy.mil> Message-ID: <859.726T2300T685793optimus@canit.se> Jeff Hellige skrev: >>Too true, again. I blame whoever decided IDE hard drives were good to >>shoehorn into any system ;) (Maybe that was apple?) > Actually, even the Amiga adopted IDE as it's standard hard >disk interface before Apple did, as the Amiga 4000 (1992) came out >roughly two years ahead of the Performa 630 (1994). Tandy was using >the 8bit version of the IDE interface in it's SL/TL series machines >as early as 1989, though only 4 drives were ever manufactured that >were compatible with it. The Commodore A590 controller (released in 1987?) also had an XT-IDE controller on its PCB in addition to the SCSI interface. It was a cheap way for C= to add small drives into the A590 case. -- En ligne avec Thor 2.6a. Sagt, ist noch ein Land, au?er Deutschland, wo man die Nase eher r?mpfen lernt als putzen? --- Georg Christoph Lichtenberg From jhellige at earthlink.net Wed Nov 21 19:14:26 2001 From: jhellige at earthlink.net (Jeff Hellige) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:23:44 2005 Subject: OT: paging MAC expert(s) --- What's a Performa? In-Reply-To: <859.726T2300T685793optimus@canit.se> References: <859.726T2300T685793optimus@canit.se> Message-ID: >The Commodore A590 controller (released in 1987?) also had an XT-IDE >controller on its PCB in addition to the SCSI interface. It was a cheap way >for C= to add small drives into the A590 case. I didn't know that...I had always thought that the older Amiga hard disk interfaces were either ST506 or SCSI. Jeff -- Home of the TRS-80 Model 2000 FAQ File http://www.cchaven.com http://www.geocities.com/siliconvalley/lakes/6757 From optimus at canit.se Wed Nov 21 18:12:29 2001 From: optimus at canit.se (Iggy Drougge) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:23:45 2005 Subject: OT: paging MAC expert(s) --- What's a Performa? In-Reply-To: <3B55D7F383B0D31197D9009027541CBF1170DEB9@cmiexch1.cmi.itds.com> Message-ID: <1137.726T1450T725031optimus@canit.se> Christopher Smith skrev: >> -----Original Message----- >> From: Iggy Drougge [mailto:optimus@canit.se] >> What kind of bollocks is that? How do you expect to run a web >> browser without >> a TCP/IP stack? I suppose you wouldn't fancy Netscape on the >> Mac any more, >> since you had to buy MacTCP in order to run that. >> Buyt then again, what browser doesn't require a TCP/IP stack >> in order to be >> used online? >I believe there was at least one MS-DOS browser that didn't (doesn't) >require a _separate_ stack. That is, since it is built into the browser. Now, there's a stupid idea. What a stupid, stupid idea. Let's all laugh and point at the stupid browser and its stupid creators. Stupid, stupid, stupid. >There is also slipknot(slipnot?), which acts as a front-end to a >shell-account with lynx. :) (That's an interesting program...) Agreed, that's an interesting program. There was a similar contraption for the Amiga, called MLink, though that did AFAIK behave as a bsdsocket.library so that one might run most normal applications. -- En ligne avec Thor 2.6a. Computer programmers know how to use their hardware. From tothwolf at concentric.net Wed Nov 21 18:12:47 2001 From: tothwolf at concentric.net (Tothwolf) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:23:45 2005 Subject: OT: paging MAC expert(s) --- What's a Performa? In-Reply-To: <200111212336.PAA12136@stockholm.ptloma.edu> Message-ID: On Wed, 21 Nov 2001, Cameron Kaiser wrote: > > Doing email through a shell account was pretty painful, with the slow serial > > link handlers that UNIX shell accounts offered. The Windows-based email > > handlers embedded in Internet Explorer, Netscape, etc, or Eudora, which was > > separate, were all MUCH easier and quicker to deal with. > > Maybe Pine sucked over a serial line, but Elm is much less termcap-spendy. I > still use Elm to read my E-mail. Man was meant to read mail on-spool. Pine...Elm...Mutt...as long as its a console based utility, I'm happy :P -Toth From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Wed Nov 21 18:52:31 2001 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (Ben Franchuk) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:23:45 2005 Subject: OT: paging MAC expert(s) --- What's a Performa? References: Message-ID: <3BFC4C4F.455A213C@jetnet.ab.ca> Tothwolf wrote: > > On Wed, 21 Nov 2001, Cameron Kaiser wrote: > > > > Doing email through a shell account was pretty painful, with the slow serial > > > link handlers that UNIX shell accounts offered. The Windows-based email > > > handlers embedded in Internet Explorer, Netscape, etc, or Eudora, which was > > > separate, were all MUCH easier and quicker to deal with. > > > > Maybe Pine sucked over a serial line, but Elm is much less termcap-spendy. I > > still use Elm to read my E-mail. Man was meant to read mail on-spool. > > Pine...Elm...Mutt...as long as its a console based utility, I'm happy :P > > -Toth I still use netscape for mail. When I got linux to play with I could never find a mail server? program that would read mail in the POP format. Netscape works fine for now.Ben Franchuk. -- Live "Pre-historic Cpu's" -- and you thought they were extinct. www.jetnet.ab.ca/users/bfranchuk/index.html From cmurillo at emtelsa.multi.net.co Wed Nov 21 21:58:00 2001 From: cmurillo at emtelsa.multi.net.co (Carlos Murillo) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:23:45 2005 Subject: OT: paging MAC expert(s) --- What's a Performa? In-Reply-To: <3BFC4C4F.455A213C@jetnet.ab.ca> References: Message-ID: <3.0.2.32.20011121225800.01801968@obregon.multi.net.co> At 05:52 PM 11/21/01 -0700, you wrote: >I still use netscape for mail. When I got linux to play with I could >never >find a mail server? program that would read mail in the POP format. >Netscape >works fine for now.Ben Franchuk. I use netscape out of necessity under HPUX (no other GUI mailer readily available). But I use Eudora on macs and wintel pc's. By far, Eudora is my preferred choice. carlos. -------------------------------------------------------------- Carlos E. Murillo-Sanchez carlos_murillo@nospammers.ieee.org From cmurillo at emtelsa.multi.net.co Wed Nov 21 21:59:26 2001 From: cmurillo at emtelsa.multi.net.co (Carlos Murillo) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:23:45 2005 Subject: OT: paging MAC expert(s) --- What's a Performa? In-Reply-To: <3BFC4C4F.455A213C@jetnet.ab.ca> References: Message-ID: <3.0.2.32.20011121225926.01801988@obregon.multi.net.co> At 05:52 PM 11/21/01 -0700, you wrote: >I still use netscape for mail. When I got linux to play with I could >never >find a mail server? program that would read mail in the POP format. >Netscape >works fine for now.Ben Franchuk. I use netscape out of necessity under HPUX (no other GUI mailer readily available). But I use Eudora on macs and wintel pc's. By far, Eudora is my preferred choice. carlos. ^X ^C Ok, so I use pine now and then :-) carlos. ^X -------------------------------------------------------------- Carlos E. Murillo-Sanchez carlos_murillo@nospammers.ieee.org From optimus at canit.se Wed Nov 21 17:57:54 2001 From: optimus at canit.se (Iggy Drougge) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:23:45 2005 Subject: Toshiba disk & DSDD floppy In-Reply-To: <3BFBD44D.EBABADD5@ccp.com> Message-ID: <465.726T2700T576665optimus@canit.se> Gary Hildebrand skrev: >DSDD 3.5 drives are rare too, as most dealers threw them away. I have a >small stash, but I'm haning on to them as they are used in Amigas. Using HD drives is AFAIK generally no problem in Amigas. It's usually a matter of jumpering the things right. I can't see any reason why the Toshiba would mind a HD drive, either. -- En ligne avec Thor 2.6a. Was ist ein Erwachsener? Ein Kind, das vom Alter aufgepumpt ist. --- Simone de Beauvoir From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Nov 21 18:02:06 2001 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:23:45 2005 Subject: Mac Restore CDs/Manuals In-Reply-To: from "Chris" at Nov 21, 1 05:58:31 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 4024 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20011122/f3450e0a/attachment.ksh From tothwolf at concentric.net Wed Nov 21 18:18:25 2001 From: tothwolf at concentric.net (Tothwolf) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:23:45 2005 Subject: Mac Restore CDs/Manuals In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Wed, 21 Nov 2001, Tony Duell wrote: > YEs, they're pretty minimal on the hardware side. Apparently you weren't > supposed to hack the hardware if you bought a Mac. Never stopped me.... I have a non working 128k unit I'd sure like to get around to fixing...It actually worked before I located a keyboard and mouse for it, I think I used the wrong type of keyboard cable. When I powered it up with the keyboard, heard a snap, and it didn't work anymore :/ -Toth From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Nov 21 18:28:12 2001 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:23:45 2005 Subject: Mac Restore CDs/Manuals In-Reply-To: from "Tothwolf" at Nov 21, 1 06:18:25 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1010 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20011122/f1ed7186/attachment.ksh From mythtech at Mac.com Wed Nov 21 19:11:17 2001 From: mythtech at Mac.com (Chris) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:23:45 2005 Subject: Mac Restore CDs/Manuals Message-ID: >I have a non working 128k unit I'd sure like to get around to fixing...It >actually worked before I located a keyboard and mouse for it, I think I >used the wrong type of keyboard cable. When I powered it up with the >keyboard, heard a snap, and it didn't work anymore :/ YIKES! Yeah, the keyboard cable is supposed to be straight pinned (or was that cross pinned... no it was straight pinned). A standard phone cable is cross pinned (or was that straight pinned... no was cross pinned... LOL). If you use a standard phone cable, you will fry the keyboard controller chip. I am sure that was the snap you heard. You can always use the mouse and the Key Caps desk accessory, type by clicking the letters, then choose cut and paste to move it to whatever you are trying to type in... PITA, but it actually does work (I had to do it once when my sister took the keyboard away from me, and I had to get a paper finished for school... it took me all night, but I finished it... and promptly beat the stuffing out of her the next morning) -chris From pete at dunnington.u-net.com Thu Nov 22 02:44:24 2001 From: pete at dunnington.u-net.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:23:45 2005 Subject: Mac Restore CDs/Manuals In-Reply-To: Chris "Re: Mac Restore CDs/Manuals" (Nov 21, 17:58) References: Message-ID: <10111220844.ZM23154@mindy.dunnington.u-net.com> On Nov 21, 17:58, Chris wrote: > >I assume these are boardswapper guides and don't include useful > >information like schematics, right? > > Exactly. > > They are wonderful when you are trying to do things like open a Powerbook > to repair the latch spring or the mouse button (both things that are > prone to break on the 190/5300/3400/G3 case design), but totally useless > if you want to know how to repair the fried power supply on a 1400 > (swapping yes, repairing no). > > But that jives with apple and the Mac... they have ALWAYS had a board > swap approach to repair. Even when the repair is something simple. So if > that is all they approve doing, why bother making public (or in the case > of these, pseudo public) manuals that cover anything more detailed. That's a pity. They weren't always like that; the Apple ][ service manuals included complete schematics and diagnostic software, and the service centre package included quite a lot of component spares (though I think we bought those separately, not with the service manuals). I suppose it's not surprising they included the schematics, since some were in the normal user manuals anyway, but the service manual had more information. They were always a bit funny about people doing repairs, though, even out of warranty. We were part of an education auhority, not a comercial service centre, so perhaps that made a difference -- but we didn't find the local Apple Centre much good at that. -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager University of York From dpeschel at eskimo.com Thu Nov 22 04:30:50 2001 From: dpeschel at eskimo.com (Derek Peschel) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:23:45 2005 Subject: Mac Restore CDs/Manuals In-Reply-To: <10111220844.ZM23154@mindy.dunnington.u-net.com>; from pete@dunnington.u-net.com on Thu, Nov 22, 2001 at 08:44:24AM +0000 References: <10111220844.ZM23154@mindy.dunnington.u-net.com> Message-ID: <20011122023050.A26350@eskimo.eskimo.com> On Thu, Nov 22, 2001 at 08:44:24AM +0000, Pete Turnbull wrote: > On Nov 21, 17:58, Chris wrote: > > >I assume these are boardswapper guides and don't include useful > > >information like schematics, right? > > > > Exactly. > > > > They are wonderful when you are trying to do things like open a Powerbook > > to repair the latch spring or the mouse button (both things that are > > prone to break on the 190/5300/3400/G3 case design), but totally useless > > if you want to know how to repair the fried power supply on a 1400 > > (swapping yes, repairing no). > > > > But that jives with apple and the Mac... they have ALWAYS had a board > > swap approach to repair. Even when the repair is something simple. So if > > that is all they approve doing, why bother making public (or in the case > > of these, pseudo public) manuals that cover anything more detailed. > > That's a pity. They weren't always like that; the Apple ][ service manuals > included complete schematics and diagnostic software, and the service Come on, Pete, you should know by now that Apple turned away from its Apple ][ mentality the instant the Mac came out (if not before, like when the Mac was being designed) and apparently hasn't looked back since. (The people who ported NetBSD to the PowerPC machines find that Apple's upgrades to Open Firmware sometimes prevent NetBSD from even booting. I thought the whole point of OF was to allow multiple operating systems, but obviously I was wrong.) -- Derek From donm at cts.com Wed Nov 21 18:59:10 2001 From: donm at cts.com (Don Maslin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:23:45 2005 Subject: Mac Restore CDs/Manuals In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Wed, 21 Nov 2001, Tothwolf wrote: > On Wed, 21 Nov 2001, Tony Duell wrote: > > > YEs, they're pretty minimal on the hardware side. Apparently you weren't > > supposed to hack the hardware if you bought a Mac. Never stopped me.... > > I have a non working 128k unit I'd sure like to get around to fixing...It > actually worked before I located a keyboard and mouse for it, I think I > used the wrong type of keyboard cable. When I powered it up with the > keyboard, heard a snap, and it didn't work anymore :/ > > -Toth Did you check the fuse inside the PSU? - don From tothwolf at concentric.net Thu Nov 22 05:12:29 2001 From: tothwolf at concentric.net (Tothwolf) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:23:45 2005 Subject: 1771 floppy controller questions In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Thu, 22 Nov 2001, Tony Duell wrote: > > It's more a matter of room than time right now, as my old "shop" is packed > > floor to ceiling with computers, parts, and so on. My benches are also > > currently covered up with even more parts and boxes. > > I know exactly what you mean.... :-) Guess it comes with collecting eh? > > I seem to remember one of these machines had a chip in one of the ram > > banks that was missing a pin. It looked like it had corroded off. It was a > > ceramic package with gold plated leads. > > Ah, if you have a visible problem like that, then you'd better fix it > ;-). The machine is unlikely to work if a chip is missing a pin. Once > you've fixed that, you can start the real troubleshooting... At the time I thought the particular lead might have not been used, and or someone damaged it when installing the chip. I had never seen a chip with its lead corroded off like that. There's no visible water/moisture damage on the rest of the board either, which seemed very odd. > > replace it with either a similar cable, or an IDC cable, as you suggested. > > I've not found a source of the original type of cable. And I don't like > it much anyway (it seems to have reliability problems, which get a lot > worse if the cable is inserted and removed a few times). Have you thought of trying a similar cable made from the newer plastics? Teflon seems to be very very tough compared to whatever kind of plastic they used in those older cables. What kind of current goes thru these cables? Would it be possible to use one of the more flexible carbon types instead of tin plated copper? > What I normally do is unsolder the connector from the PCB. Replace it > with an SIL header (maybe just a row of pins, maybe one of the 'box > headers used with the IDC sockets with one row of pins removed). Then use > IDC cable/sockets to link the headers. Make sure you use the same row of > holes in both sockets, of course. I've done this in several machines and > not had any problems. Could also use an SIL amp/berg connector and crimp pins to ribbon cable. Might look a little more original, but it would take allot more work to assemble then pressing on an IDC connector. > > My model 1's keyboard cable had the same problem, and I replaced it with a > > short bit of ribbon cable soldered directly to the boards. I'm planning to > > replace that again with something better the next time I work on it. > > The origianl M1 keyboard cables was a solid-core ribbon cable soldered to > both PCBs. It breaks if you unfold/reassemble the boards a few times. A > piece of normal ribbon cable seems to be a suitable replacement. That's exactly the problem mine suffered from. > > I think I saw some sort of temperature alarm/sensor plugged into the > > output of one of the supplies in one of these machines. Was that a 3rd > > party add-on or something that came standard? > > If that's what it is, it's certainly not standard. > > But disk-based M4s have a sound board. A small PCB with a 74LS74 chip, a > transistor and a beeper-thing on it. It has 4 wires coming off it, ending > in a 4 pin 0.1" Molex socket. It looks as though it could plug into a PSU > output connector, but it doesn't (doing so will kill the '74 at least). > It connects to a 4 pin plug on the CPU board just above the keyboard > connector. If yours was plugged into the PSU when you got the machine > then the previous owner was terminally clueless, and expect all sorts of > other problems! Well, if this is the machine that would not even turn on, that could explain something...I know the factory seals had already been broken. I wish I could get to these machines right now, I sure want to have another look and fix em :P -Toth From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Nov 21 18:07:09 2001 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:23:45 2005 Subject: I'm guessing you have solved this problem... In-Reply-To: <002d01c172e6$3b868240$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> from "Richard Erlacher" at Nov 21, 1 04:42:50 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1528 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20011122/e8384654/attachment.ksh From edick at idcomm.com Wed Nov 21 19:14:17 2001 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:23:45 2005 Subject: I'm guessing you have solved this problem... References: Message-ID: <002601c172f3$01f77ae0$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> see inline comments, plz Dick ----- Original Message ----- From: "Tony Duell" To: Sent: Wednesday, November 21, 2001 5:07 PM Subject: Re: I'm guessing you have solved this problem... > > > > Just how fast do these devices have to be, and how deep are they? I've got some > > 10's of ns at worst. And typically 256*4 bits or so. > So those would be 82S129's or the like? There are some such devices that still show up in popular surplus supplies. > > > 35ns 8kx8 CMOS EPROMs, in skinny DIP packages, and I'd imagine that other > > I suspect those would be fine for many of the PROMs in old minicomputers... > > > configurations are out there as well. These are contemporaries of the 25ns > > 22V10 UV-erasable PALs from CYPRESS. That would date them about 1990. > > > > Small bipolar PROMs were often used like PALs, which were not yet popular, or > > In the case of the 11/45 (1972), I don't think PALs were even available > at the time it was made. > > > were more expensive than the PROMs. I've not seen EPROMs that small, however, > > but it's likely a big EPROM would work if it's fast enough. In a case where the > > Of course it would. EPROMs never need a refresh (for obvious reasons), so > it's safe to tie unused address inputs low and to program the required > pattern into the first few words of the EPROM. I don't see how that could > ever not work. > > > PROM is a logic element rather than a program store, a PAL could well be > > substituted. > > Well, if you want to take a dump of the PROM, work out the logic > equations from it, then fit them into a PAL, and get it working, good > luck :-) > The PROM is listed as a truth-table, right? The only ABEL version I used simply took a truth table as input. That wouldn't take much processing. > > Yes, some PROMs were used as logic functions rather than (say) microcode > store. But it's not that easy to replace them with PALs (it's possible in > some cases to fit the logic into a small-ish PAL). It's a lot easier to > use a PROM/EPROM device. > If one doesn't have a suitable bit of software, that Quine-McLuskey (?) method that I learned about in college some 30+ years back (and promptly forgot) can be automated easily enough to produce reduced equations. Reducing the prom listing to a set of equations by isolating each bit in the output word and OR'ing the locations at which those bits are true is one reasonably way to do the job. I know of no PAL generation software that doesn't automatically reduce the equations for you. PROMs are programmable-OR-fixed-AND devices, while PALs are programmable AND-fixed-OR devices. The process of generating them is, therefore different, for a given logic function, but, expanded and re-reduced, the result should be the same. Of course a registered PROM is needed to produced registered outputs. I'd say a 16L8 would do for most PROM-based applications. A 16L8 is capable of generating any logic function of 16 inputs. A 256x4 or 32x8 PROM has less logic than that in it. > > -tony > > From mythtech at Mac.com Wed Nov 21 18:15:35 2001 From: mythtech at Mac.com (Chris) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:23:45 2005 Subject: NeXTs Message-ID: >I'd still like to get my hands on *a* NeXT. Does someone have some >extras stockpiled somewhere they might be willing to do a deal with? >Somenoe on the list a while back found a whole load of them but I >never heard back from the guy and I don't remember who that was, if >you're still out there and still have some and you read sentences this >awkward. :-) For fear of sounding like an AOL'er... ME TOO!!! -chris From gwynp at artware.qc.ca Wed Nov 21 21:31:46 2001 From: gwynp at artware.qc.ca (gwynp@artware.qc.ca) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:23:45 2005 Subject: NeXTs In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On 22-Nov-2001 Chris wrote: >>I'd still like to get my hands on *a* NeXT. Does someone have some >>extras stockpiled somewhere they might be willing to do a deal with? >>Somenoe on the list a while back found a whole load of them but I >>never heard back from the guy and I don't remember who that was, if >>you're still out there and still have some and you read sentences this >>awkward. :-) > > For fear of sounding like an AOL'er... ME TOO!!! I think the question would be : is there anyone who doesn't want a NeXT? I know I've lusted after a cube for many a year. -Philip From LFessen106 at aol.com Wed Nov 21 18:32:04 2001 From: LFessen106 at aol.com (LFessen106@aol.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:23:45 2005 Subject: Say it ain't so, Joe! Message-ID: <67.1d3a9a5a.292da185@aol.com> In a message dated Wed, 21 Nov 2001 5:15:36 PM Eastern Standard Time, Joe writes: > Linc, > > I'm on the east side of Orlando, Florida. I'm two miles north of UCF > (University of Central Florida) and between UCF and the town of Oviedo. > I'm just off of Alafaya trail. My address is 2960 Lowery Dr. Oviedo, 32765 > you can find it on any of the on-line maps. You're welcome to whatever you > can haul away. > > Joe > > At 11:31 AM 11/21/01 EST, you wrote: > >Love to help "rescue" some of the HP stuff - where are you located? > > > >-Linc Fessenden > > > >In The Beginning there was nothing, which exploded - Yeah right... > > > >Calculating in binary code is as easy as 01,10,11. > > > > > > Wow, wish I could get down there - I am way up in PA.... From dogas at bellsouth.net Wed Nov 21 23:29:25 2001 From: dogas at bellsouth.net (Mike) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:23:45 2005 Subject: Say it ain't so, Joe! References: <3.0.6.32.20011121112616.007b4100@mailhost.intellistar.net> Message-ID: <006001c17316$a6c975a0$3c19d7d1@DOMAIN> Hi Joe and all, From: Joe > > > > > I've had to dispose of all my classic computer stuff > > > if you want to come get it. Here's a list of what I can remember off the > top of my head: > > snip... > > All of the following are gone: > ALL of the HP handheld calcs; all the extra HP SW paks and manuals; all > the HP catalogs; all of the HP Journals; the HP 9100 and accessories; all > the HP 97s, 9815s and small desktop calcs; the HP 125 CPM machine; all the > AIM 65s; the Apple Lisas; the DEC 11/23 system; all the S-100 stuff except > for a few Cromemco cases with backplanes; both Altairs; the Rubicon; the > SB-180; all the HP 9000 series 300 machines; all six Osbornes; both Z-100s > and all the manuals and extra parts; all the Intel and Motorola SBCs; the > Tektronix 31 calc; the Tektronix 8051 computer and all accessories and > manuals; the Tektronix CPM computer; the Intel 235 MDS; the Sony/Tektronix > Logic Analyzers; the Dolch MPM computer/logic analyzer; ALL the general > computer manuals and books; all the test equipment except for one OLD HP > logic analyzer and all the machine tools and tooling except for the 12 x > 48" lathe (it's spoken for but we have to tear down the building to get it > out!) > Seems like there was more that that! I was close and free enough to be able to respond pretty quickly to this rescue situation. T + 4 hrs. I always like seeing Joe anyway when down there and wished to be introduced to his collection under different circumstances. I always figured Joe and I would get our collections together (...with some dec dude...) eventually for a pretty cool regional resource-depot/library/commercial/museum/thingy someday. I I had a (10x30) storage unit that I was finally down to two or three carloads away from emptying in Jacksonville (a Basic Four minicomputer) that I was able to temporarily store the three new loads from Joe's before finally being shuffled here. It was an adventure over miles with a car on the verge of catrastrophe, filled to the brim. Anyway, here's my recent 'new finds' list... 2 MITS Altair 8800 computers and MITS Altair Floppy (case) and manuals, cards,disk software DG Nova 1200 & (?) Eclipse Terak 8510 Apple Lisa w/widget&software & Macintosh Portable Digital DecStation 5000/240, lsi-11 cardcage & cards, tk50z, and some pdp11 cards Intel MDS 235 (+big accessories) and a few other sbc's, and bubble memory stuff Tektronix 4051 (+big accessories) and 4041 and (?) 31 calc and (2) 9100 DAS units and 338 Sony/Tek Logic Analyzer and good manual set few each of HP Apollo, 5036a, 86 (and cp/m aux processor), 87, 9820&9835 systems, and several drives,probes, sig analyzer, gpib event trigger AT&T UnixPC and hd drive and software E&L MMD and OP-2 OSI C2D 8" floppy case Zilog Development System and Drives National Semi computer Osborne 1 (brown) portable Zorba portable several AIM-65s & parts & EI Heathkit 3400, 3100, calculator, catalogs few Motorola 6800/68000 sbcs and EXORBus cards Canon sx-320 Intext XK-300 6802 sbc Atari ? system diagnostic Tandy PC-2, PC-6, 100, xenix software for 6000 Sharp Wizard, 1546, PC-2500, and Casio pocket computer Epson HX-40 S100 breakout panel and S100 cards IBM P70 and external disk/cable and (!!) Field Tek's Case Compaq Portable II 286 w/ISA backpack & eprom programmer several TI calculators about a 100 BOOKS! and early runs Byte and Kilobaud magazines buncha 1702a eproms Data I/O Programmer 29a and (?) calibrator 2 Weller sodering stations Pantronics 100a logic analyzer LSI ADM 3a terminal core memory boards several X-10 modules Dysan disk alignment disk set and unit whew! Woo Hoo! Thanks Joe! So... I've been pretty busy lately digging out from that avalanch and reading much. A few of the things I picked up were for other people and I'll be in touch ;) - Mike: dogas@bellsouth.net From marvin at rain.org Wed Nov 21 19:58:54 2001 From: marvin at rain.org (Marvin Johnston) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:23:45 2005 Subject: 50th anniversary of the routine business use of computers References: <7A9BACCEF0171D4FB77019F5104CDD3722595E@jeffserver.tegjeff.com> Message-ID: <3BFC5BDE.C46CCD40@rain.org> I was fortunate enough to get some original LEO stationary and punch cards a few years ago. Just to see what would happen, I put one of each on ebay and it appears not many people had even heard of LEO computers! Douglas Quebbeman wrote: > > > "Feldman, Robert" said: > > > I was looking at the Economist (Nov 17th) at the library last night and > saw > > > the following (p. 76) > > > > > > The Lyons Electronic Office (LEO) began use 11-17-1951 in a British > catering > > > company. > > > > etc... > > > > See also: http://www.leo-computers.org.uk/ > > Business was fast on the heels of government... earlier that year > in June, The UNIVAC I was installed a few blocks from where I'm > typing this (historical nobody-ever-heard-of-Jeffersonville-Indiana). > > -dq From jss at subatomix.com Wed Nov 21 20:00:36 2001 From: jss at subatomix.com (Jeffrey S. Sharp) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:23:45 2005 Subject: NeXTs (was Re: Radio Shack abandons components) In-Reply-To: <200111212347.PAA12218@stockholm.ptloma.edu> Message-ID: <20011121193202.U26795-100000@lepton.subatomix.com> On Wed, 21 Nov 2001, Cameron Kaiser wrote: > I'd still like to get my hands on *a* NeXT. Yeah, me too. > Somenoe on the list a while back found a whole load of them but I > never heard back from the guy and I don't remember who that was, That was Curt Vendel. He was going to distribute the slabs for $35 plus shipping. I asked him several times how much my shipping would be and where to send the money, but I never received an answer. His last message to the list on the subject is here: http://www.classiccmp.org/mail-archive/classiccmp/2001-04/0483.html All right Curt, if you're still with us, you're on the spot! Whatever happened to our slabs? -- Jeffrey S. Sharp jss@subatomix.com From jrice at texoma.net Wed Nov 21 21:25:18 2001 From: jrice at texoma.net (James L. Rice) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:23:45 2005 Subject: NeXTs (was Re: Radio Shack abandons components) References: <200111212347.PAA12218@stockholm.ptloma.edu> Message-ID: <3BFC701E.3060008@texoma.net> Actually I have a Turbo Color ADB slab, a '040 cube and the Dimension Cube. Both of the color systems are equipted with 21" NeXT/Hitachi (N4005) monitors and the slab has a spare NeXT/Trinitron (N4006) monitor. I have three NeXT lasers, one color printer and three NeXT N3010 CD-ROMS. All of the cables are geniune NeXT down to the power cords and the SCSI cables. My internet access is through a ISDN router until shortly after the first of the year. I'm getting ADSL 384/1.5mb with 5 fixed public ip's. The guy who found the sh*tload of NeXT's found himself over his head trying to inventory and test them all, so he sold them to Rob at http://www.blackholeinc.com . Rob is one of the two best places to get NeXT equipment around. The other place is Randy at http://www.channelu.com . Of course there is always evilbay. There is a nice Turbo Color slab sitting at $73.00 right now. http://cgi.ebay.com/aw-cgi/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=1298120201&r=0&t=0&showTutorial=0&ed=1006465718&indexURL=0&rd=1 Cameron Kaiser wrote: >> You have a Dimension Cube and you still want more??! Some >>people are never happy! I switched my LAN at home from the trial >>of Surfdoubler to the registered IPNetRouter and am having a blast >>with my NeXT slab on the 'net, especially since adding the second NIC >>to the G3. >> > >I'd still like to get my hands on *a* NeXT. Does someone have some >extras stockpiled somewhere they might be willing to do a deal with? >Somenoe on the list a while back found a whole load of them but I >never heard back from the guy and I don't remember who that was, if >you're still out there and still have some and you read sentences this >awkward. :-) > From tothwolf at concentric.net Thu Nov 22 05:18:09 2001 From: tothwolf at concentric.net (Tothwolf) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:23:45 2005 Subject: 1771 floppy controller questions In-Reply-To: <001601c172ef$62e353a0$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> Message-ID: On Wed, 21 Nov 2001, Richard Erlacher wrote: > From: "Tothwolf" > > > > The ribbon in both computers was in somewhat bad shape. I was planning to > > replace it with either a similar cable, or an IDC cable, as you suggested. > > My model 1's keyboard cable had the same problem, and I replaced it with a > > short bit of ribbon cable soldered directly to the boards. I'm planning to > > replace that again with something better the next time I work on it. > > I thought of this bacause ribbon cable soldered to PCB's always seemed > to me to be a source of trouble. I had keyboards connected with > soldered ribbon for some time and it seems to me that I was frequently > restripping and resoldering, while those attached with connectors > occasionally required that I check that the connectors were securely > plugged, but nothing else. This is the exact problem I want to avoid with my model 1. I've considered using crimp on pins on each wire of the ribbon cable, since they would provide some strain relief for the individual wires. -Toth From tothwolf at concentric.net Thu Nov 22 05:20:27 2001 From: tothwolf at concentric.net (Tothwolf) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:23:45 2005 Subject: 1771 floppy controller questions In-Reply-To: <000e01c172ee$555b1520$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> Message-ID: On Wed, 21 Nov 2001, Richard Erlacher wrote: > From: "Tothwolf" > > > I bought a used dip style dram tester set about a year ago. It only cost > > me $5, and I figured it might be useful for testing all the old 64k and > > 256k drams I seem to run into in old pcs. I haven't yet had a chance to > > use it yet. Maybe it will help with these old boxes... > > You'll want to be careful with the early DRAMs, as they used 3 supply > rails, and your tester of 5-volt-only DRAMs may die from application > to a 3-supply DRAM. Thanks for the warning, I'll make sure to double check the datasheets before I try to test chips with it. I guess if I have to, I could make an adapter of somesort to test older chips too... -Toth From ghldbrd at ccp.com Wed Nov 21 20:37:42 2001 From: ghldbrd at ccp.com (Gary Hildebrand) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:23:45 2005 Subject: 2mm spacing connectors Message-ID: <3BFC64F6.F218DE67@ccp.com> I would like to find a source for 2mm spaced 2 pin connectors, the ones used to add an LED indicator on most new hard drives. Preferably with leads attached, so I don't have to solder and melt . . . . . I can get lots of the .100 spaced, but the 2mm seems to be a odd bugger. Gary Hildebrand St. Joseph, MO From edick at idcomm.com Wed Nov 21 23:23:26 2001 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:23:45 2005 Subject: 2mm spacing connectors References: <3BFC64F6.F218DE67@ccp.com> Message-ID: <001601c17315$d057b180$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> They're not odd at all anymore, but I know the problem you're referring to, having had to deal with it myself. I'd ordinarily look in the EEM sourcebook, but I just took the old ones down and haven't taken the new ones out of the boxes yet. If you can be a little more specific, perhaps I can help you. In the meantime, you might look in the DigiKey catalog. Dick ----- Original Message ----- From: "Gary Hildebrand" To: "Classic computing mailing list" Sent: Wednesday, November 21, 2001 7:37 PM Subject: 2mm spacing connectors > I would like to find a source for 2mm spaced 2 pin connectors, the ones > used to add an LED indicator on most new hard drives. Preferably with > leads attached, so I don't have to solder and melt . . . . . > > I can get lots of the .100 spaced, but the 2mm seems to be a odd bugger. > > Gary Hildebrand > St. Joseph, MO > > From mikeford at socal.rr.com Wed Nov 21 20:45:55 2001 From: mikeford at socal.rr.com (Mike Ford) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:23:45 2005 Subject: Another Old-computer dealer. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: > Have we developed a clear, easy-to-use "wanted" list or website for >this group? It'd be neat to be able to hand this guy (Mike Hancock) or >other dealers the list or URL, and tell them if they see something on the >list, save it, it's worth $xxx. > Could we set up a database/bid deal, where anyone can add to the >list of "want" items, and what they'd pay for it? This is information that is good for us to know among ourselves, but the list I would pass on to scrappers would be rather different and MUCH less specific. These guys have 100 times the contacts that most of us do, and while systems would get saved, prices will go out the roof if they know EXACTLY what is in demand and what isn't . Leave them a bit dependant on us stopping by and checking out the possible stuff. From mythtech at Mac.com Wed Nov 21 21:19:13 2001 From: mythtech at Mac.com (Chris) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:23:45 2005 Subject: Mac SE Sigma Video Card Message-ID: I just aquired a Mac SE FDHD (thanks Dave!), and it has a Sigma Designs video card in it. Surprise Surprise, ANOTHER company that seems to deny that they ever made things for the older macs. Needless to say, I can't find much info on it. It is part number 52-000132. It has a DB-9 Female connector for the monitor. Anyone know A: if drivers are needed (probably) and where I might get such (they might be on the computer still, I didn't have anymore space to boot it, nor another keyboard/mouse on hand... so I just opened it on the floor to have a looksee). B: What kind of monitor it connects to? (looks like a CGA or EGA connector, but could be just about anything... from what I am finding Sigma offered a cool SCSI based monitor that had its own custom stuff, so I am fearing that it needed a custom monitor too) C: What kind of video it is... that is, color, greyscale, monochrome... bit depth (if not monochrome), what size it could drive, output freqs... whatever. Thanks for any info -chris From geoffr at zipcon.net Thu Nov 22 01:31:10 2001 From: geoffr at zipcon.net (Geoff Reed) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:23:45 2005 Subject: Mac SE Sigma Video Card In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20011121233026.03461a10@mail.zipcon.net> At 10:19 PM 11/21/01 -0500, you wrote: >It is part number 52-000132. It has a DB-9 Female connector for the >monitor. > >Anyone know > >B: What kind of monitor it connects to? (looks like a CGA or EGA >connector, but could be just about anything... from what I am finding >Sigma offered a cool SCSI based monitor that had its own custom stuff, so >I am fearing that it needed a custom monitor too) I'm pretty sure it's a TPD monochrome card IIRC. (TwoPageDisplay) From foo at siconic.com Wed Nov 21 23:01:22 2001 From: foo at siconic.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:23:45 2005 Subject: HardCard driver disks In-Reply-To: <20011121143354.B316@mastif> Message-ID: On Wed, 21 Nov 2001, John Ott wrote: > I could use one of these on my compaq portable with a 20 MB hardcard. Reply to me privately so I can keep track of you. I got so many requests that I'm just going to put the drivers up on my website so anyone who needs them can download them. I never realized so many people would want these. The first three people who got in requests will still get a disk. Everyone else can roll their own :) I'll post a message when I get those files up (probably late tonight). Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org From foo at siconic.com Thu Nov 22 01:32:41 2001 From: foo at siconic.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:23:45 2005 Subject: HardCard driver disks In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Wed, 21 Nov 2001, Sellam Ismail wrote: > I got so many requests that I'm just going to put the drivers up on my > website so anyone who needs them can download them. I never realized so > many people would want these. > > The first three people who got in requests will still get a disk. > Everyone else can roll their own :) > > I'll post a message when I get those files up (probably late tonight). Ok, so what's the trouble with reading a 360K diskette on a 1.2MB drive? I know we've covered this numerous times before but I'm too lazy to go searching through the archives. I think I'll try to fire up an old school IBM PC with a 360K drive to see if I have better luck. Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org From marvin at rain.org Thu Nov 22 02:05:02 2001 From: marvin at rain.org (Marvin Johnston) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:23:45 2005 Subject: HardCard driver disks References: Message-ID: <3BFCB1AE.1D2029CB@rain.org> Sellam Ismail wrote: > > Ok, so what's the trouble with reading a 360K diskette on a 1.2MB drive? > I know we've covered this numerous times before but I'm too lazy to go > searching through the archives. The problem is with writing on a 1.2 MB drive onto a disk that has also been written with the 360K drive, and then trying to read the resultant mess with a 360K drive. I've never run into problems reading any 360K diskette with a 1.2 MB drive. From foo at siconic.com Wed Nov 21 23:05:10 2001 From: foo at siconic.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:23:45 2005 Subject: Interesting find In-Reply-To: <20011121162406.J26523-100000@lepton.subatomix.com> Message-ID: On Wed, 21 Nov 2001, Jeffrey S. Sharp wrote: > All right, now this has me irked. The 9825 is still at the place, but > they won't sell it to me today. Their normal hours are 8-5 MTWF, but > they only sell "to the public" on Tuesday from 11-4. How whacked up > is that!? Always have a business card handy ;) But yeah, that is pretty whacked. Sometimes the nerds that run these places are real shitheads. Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org From gunther at aurora.regenstrief.org Wed Nov 21 23:17:51 2001 From: gunther at aurora.regenstrief.org (Gunther Schadow) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:23:45 2005 Subject: RA60 drives anywhere? And stuff... References: <000001c16e91$6f2cba00$7901100a@mdl> <3BF9B9B2.2020603@aurora.regenstrief.org> <3BF9CE25.1010102@arrl.net> Message-ID: <3BFC8A7F.4060903@aurora.regenstrief.org> no wrote: > My main gripe > against the RA60 is the reliability issue. I finally replaced the ones > on our 11/785 last year with a SABB array (4 x RA72s). And you can fit 2 > SABB's in the space of one RA60. now wait a minute ... did you just say "on our 11/785"? Do you mean a computer club or actually a business? I want an 11/785 pretty badly and so I just have to ask whenever some of those appears to be still in business. thanks, -Gunther -- Gunther Schadow, M.D., Ph.D. gschadow@regenstrief.org Medical Information Scientist Regenstrief Institute for Health Care Adjunct Assistant Professor Indiana University School of Medicine tel:1(317)630-7960 http://aurora.regenstrief.org From vze2mnvr at verizon.net Thu Nov 22 00:16:14 2001 From: vze2mnvr at verizon.net (Ian Koller) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:23:45 2005 Subject: Preserving old literature (was: Re: Tandy 10 Info Wanted) References: Message-ID: <3BFC982E.BAE840E8@verizon.net> Aren't the copy machines you find in the libraries designed to copy pages in a book without breaking it's spine/back. Just makes copies at the library, then scan the copies. Tothwolf wrote: > > On Tue, 20 Nov 2001, Michael Nadeau wrote: > > From: "Tothwolf" > > > > > Speaking of 80 Micro...has anyone scanned the issues from 1980-1983? I > > > have a collection covering all of 1980-1982, and about 1/4th of '83 > > > (starting with issue #1). I haven't yet scanned anything since I am unsure > > > about how to do so w/o damaging them. > > > > If I were to do it, I'd sacrifice a less-than-pristine copy for the > > cause--not an option if you don't have a duplicate, of course. Scanning some > > of those bigger issues without taking them apart is near impossible (I've > > tried), and there's no way to reassemble the magazine. > > I don't have any duplicates, so taking them apart in such a way that ruins > them isn't an option for me. I guess I need to find an expert on book > binding and see what they can come up with. Maybe there is a special > scanner out there that was made for doing this kind of thing? > > -Toth From tothwolf at concentric.net Thu Nov 22 05:34:05 2001 From: tothwolf at concentric.net (Tothwolf) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:23:45 2005 Subject: Mac Restore CDs/Manuals In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Wed, 21 Nov 2001, Chris wrote: > >I have a non working 128k unit I'd sure like to get around to fixing...It > >actually worked before I located a keyboard and mouse for it, I think I > >used the wrong type of keyboard cable. When I powered it up with the > >keyboard, heard a snap, and it didn't work anymore :/ > > YIKES! > > Yeah, the keyboard cable is supposed to be straight pinned (or was that > cross pinned... no it was straight pinned). A standard phone cable is > cross pinned (or was that straight pinned... no was cross pinned... LOL). > If you use a standard phone cable, you will fry the keyboard controller > chip. I am sure that was the snap you heard. I used a keyboard cable for some sort of HP gear, I had 2-3 brand new ones laying around, and figured they might work. > You can always use the mouse and the Key Caps desk accessory, type by > clicking the letters, then choose cut and paste to move it to whatever > you are trying to type in... PITA, but it actually does work (I had to do > it once when my sister took the keyboard away from me, and I had to get a > paper finished for school... it took me all night, but I finished it... > and promptly beat the stuffing out of her the next morning) Eh...I've got other working machines, so I don't think I need to use it quite *that* bad :) -Toth From tothwolf at concentric.net Thu Nov 22 05:26:33 2001 From: tothwolf at concentric.net (Tothwolf) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:23:45 2005 Subject: OT: paging MAC expert(s) --- What's a Performa? In-Reply-To: <3BFC4C4F.455A213C@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: On Wed, 21 Nov 2001, Ben Franchuk wrote: > Tothwolf wrote: > > > Pine...Elm...Mutt...as long as its a console based utility, I'm happy :P > > I still use netscape for mail. When I got linux to play with I could > never find a mail server? program that would read mail in the POP > format. Netscape works fine for now. I have 'fetchmail' set to poll several pop boxes every 5-10 minutes. It then sends the mail it retrieves to whatever accounts I want on my local box thru the local sendmail. Since I use procmail as the delivery agent, all my email can then be filtered and sorted out into separate email 'folders'/files. -Toth From tothwolf at concentric.net Thu Nov 22 05:30:16 2001 From: tothwolf at concentric.net (Tothwolf) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:23:45 2005 Subject: Mac Restore CDs/Manuals In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Thu, 22 Nov 2001, Tony Duell wrote: > > > I have a non working 128k unit I'd sure like to get around to fixing...It > > actually worked before I located a keyboard and mouse for it, I think I > > used the wrong type of keyboard cable. When I powered it up with the > > keyboard, heard a snap, and it didn't work anymore :/ > > The keybaord port carries +5V, data (TTL level), clock (TTL level), > ground, in that order. > > If the keyboard cable was made to swap the pins end-for-end (which some > cables do), it would swap over +5V and ground at the keyboard. The > keyboard won't like this!, and it may also have damaged the PSU inside > the Mac. My guess is that the logic board in the machine is still OK. > > I would check the PSU outputs inside the Mac. And investigate the PSU. Is > the fuse still good? What about the chopper transistor. And so on. I think the fuse was ok. I think I can get to this machine, and may pull it out tonight. I'll check the chopper and related components. -Toth From tothwolf at concentric.net Thu Nov 22 05:47:00 2001 From: tothwolf at concentric.net (Tothwolf) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:23:45 2005 Subject: Preserving old literature (was: Re: Tandy 10 Info Wanted) In-Reply-To: <3BFC982E.BAE840E8@verizon.net> Message-ID: On Thu, 22 Nov 2001, Ian Koller wrote: > Tothwolf wrote: > > > I don't have any duplicates, so taking them apart in such a way that ruins > > them isn't an option for me. I guess I need to find an expert on book > > binding and see what they can come up with. Maybe there is a special > > scanner out there that was made for doing this kind of thing? > > Aren't the copy machines you find in the libraries designed to copy > pages in a book without breaking it's spine/back. Just makes copies at > the library, then scan the copies. The copy machines the local library here has are standard units. They also charge 10-15 cents a page, and are very much in need of an overhaul and cleaning (very poor copies). I have a very old 3 pass HP scanner that may be ok for scanning this stuff, but I'm not sure yet. The spines of these old magazines are much thinner and much more brittle then those found in most paperback books. -Toth From classiccmp at knm.yi.org Thu Nov 22 05:54:10 2001 From: classiccmp at knm.yi.org (Matt London) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:23:45 2005 Subject: HardCard driver disks In-Reply-To: <3BFCB1AE.1D2029CB@rain.org> Message-ID: Hi, > > Ok, so what's the trouble with reading a 360K diskette on a 1.2MB drive? > > I know we've covered this numerous times before but I'm too lazy to go > > searching through the archives. > > The problem is with writing on a 1.2 MB drive onto a disk that has also > been written with the 360K drive, and then trying to read the resultant > mess with a 360K drive. I've never run into problems reading any 360K > diskette with a 1.2 MB drive. 1.2M drives write thinner tracks than 360k drives, 360k drives get confused if you've overwritten stuff written with a 360k drive (thick tracks) with stuff from a 1.2M drive (thin track) - you get the idea :&) -- Matt --- Web Page: http://knm.yi.org/ http://pkl.net/~matt/ PGP Key fingerprint = 00BF 19FE D5F5 8EAD 2FD5 D102 260E 8BA7 EEE4 8D7F PGP Key http://knm.yi.org/matt-pgp.html From classiccmp at knm.yi.org Thu Nov 22 07:04:59 2001 From: classiccmp at knm.yi.org (Matt London) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:23:45 2005 Subject: Preserving old literature (was: Re: Tandy 10 Info Wanted) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Hi, > > > I don't have any duplicates, so taking them apart in such a way that ruins > > > them isn't an option for me. I guess I need to find an expert on book > > > binding and see what they can come up with. Maybe there is a special > > > scanner out there that was made for doing this kind of thing? > > > > Aren't the copy machines you find in the libraries designed to copy > > pages in a book without breaking it's spine/back. Just makes copies at > > the library, then scan the copies. > > The copy machines the local library here has are standard units. They also > charge 10-15 cents a page, and are very much in need of an overhaul and > cleaning (very poor copies). I have a very old 3 pass HP scanner that may > be ok for scanning this stuff, but I'm not sure yet. The spines of these > old magazines are much thinner and much more brittle then those found in > most paperback books. I've found that hanging one edge of the magazine over the side of the scanner works - you have to put the scanner on something thin and tall, so the whole side of the magazine droops down - the only problem then is the width of the plastic edges of the scanner surface/sides of scanner -- Matt --- PGP Key fingerprint = 00BF 19FE D5F5 8EAD 2FD5 D102 260E 8BA7 EEE4 8D7F PGP Key http://knm.yi.org/matt-pgp.html From tothwolf at concentric.net Thu Nov 22 07:17:13 2001 From: tothwolf at concentric.net (Tothwolf) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:23:45 2005 Subject: Mac Restore CDs/Manuals In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Thu, 22 Nov 2001, Tothwolf wrote: > I think the fuse was ok. I think I can get to this machine, and may pull > it out tonight. I'll check the chopper and related components. Well, I don't know where that machine is burried...Found a non-functional 1MB unit tho. It powers up, but it displays vertical bars of corrupted characters. Yet another project I guess :P -Toth From mythtech at Mac.com Thu Nov 22 10:46:59 2001 From: mythtech at Mac.com (Chris) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:23:45 2005 Subject: HardCard driver disks Message-ID: <200111221647.KAA65506@opal.tseinc.com> >Ok, so what's the trouble with reading a 360K diskette on a 1.2MB drive? >I know we've covered this numerous times before but I'm too lazy to go >searching through the archives. > >I think I'll try to fire up an old school IBM PC with a 360K drive to see >if I have better luck. I've never had a problem READING 360k disks in a 1.2 drive. I have had trouble writing them (but not always, and I think it might be related to the disks being DD's, but formated as HD's and then back to DD's again... not sure). And I do know when formatting them under dos, you need to specify that you are formatting a 360k disk in a 1.2 drive (/f is the switch I think). Just specifying the size as 360k doesn't usually work for me. -chris From mythtech at Mac.com Thu Nov 22 10:49:53 2001 From: mythtech at Mac.com (Chris) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:23:45 2005 Subject: Mac SE Sigma Video Card Message-ID: <200111221649.KAA65522@opal.tseinc.com> >>B: What kind of monitor it connects to? (looks like a CGA or EGA >>connector, but could be just about anything... from what I am finding >>Sigma offered a cool SCSI based monitor that had its own custom stuff, so >>I am fearing that it needed a custom monitor too) > > >I'm pretty sure it's a TPD monochrome card IIRC. (TwoPageDisplay) Is their anything special about a two page display? or can I use a more standard monitor (like CGA, or VGA with some kind of adaptor)? -chris From oliv555 at arrl.net Thu Nov 22 11:02:54 2001 From: oliv555 at arrl.net (no) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:23:45 2005 Subject: RA60 drives anywhere? And stuff... References: <000001c16e91$6f2cba00$7901100a@mdl> <3BF9B9B2.2020603@aurora.regenstrief.org> <3BF9CE25.1010102@arrl.net> <3BFC8A7F.4060903@aurora.regenstrief.org> Message-ID: <3BFD2FBE.1935ADC2@arrl.net> Gunther Schadow wrote: > > no wrote: > > > My main gripe > > against the RA60 is the reliability issue. I finally replaced the ones > > on our 11/785 last year with a SABB array (4 x RA72s). And you can fit 2 > > SABB's in the space of one RA60. > > now wait a minute ... did you just say "on our 11/785"? Do you > mean a computer club or actually a business? I want an 11/785 > pretty badly and so I just have to ask whenever some of those > appears to be still in business. > > thanks, > -Gunther > I'm sure there are quite a few still in commercial use. Ours is hooked up to a MD-80 flight simulator, with 2 more nestled in the back of the room serving as spares. There was a time in the mid '70s that Link claimed to be DECs biggest customer. Scores of PDP11s (/45, /70) were used in all types of sims, including at least one nuclear power plant simulator that I am aware of. Later models sported dual 11/780 configurations and 11/785s. Many of these have since been rehosted with VAX4000s and 6000s. -nick From dpeschel at eskimo.com Thu Nov 22 11:59:55 2001 From: dpeschel at eskimo.com (Derek Peschel) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:23:45 2005 Subject: Mac SE Sigma Video Card In-Reply-To: <200111221649.KAA65522@opal.tseinc.com>; from mythtech@Mac.com on Thu, Nov 22, 2001 at 11:49:53AM -0500 References: <200111221649.KAA65522@opal.tseinc.com> Message-ID: <20011122095955.A17434@eskimo.eskimo.com> On Thu, Nov 22, 2001 at 11:49:53AM -0500, Chris wrote: > >>B: What kind of monitor it connects to? (looks like a CGA or EGA > >>connector, but could be just about anything... from what I am finding > >>Sigma offered a cool SCSI based monitor that had its own custom stuff, so > >>I am fearing that it needed a custom monitor too) > > > > > >I'm pretty sure it's a TPD monochrome card IIRC. (TwoPageDisplay) > > Is their anything special about a two page display? or can I use a more > standard monitor (like CGA, or VGA with some kind of adaptor)? Your standard monitor may have to support an oddball resolution... those two-page displays were designed to allow publishers and graphics people to preview two 8.5x11" pages side by side. If you had a one-page display card the resolutionn would be even weirder (the actual monitors are really tall and thin, the same proportions as one 8.5x11" page). -- Derek From pete at dunnington.u-net.com Thu Nov 22 09:27:09 2001 From: pete at dunnington.u-net.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:23:45 2005 Subject: Mac Restore CDs/Manuals In-Reply-To: Derek Peschel "Re: Mac Restore CDs/Manuals" (Nov 22, 2:30) References: <10111220844.ZM23154@mindy.dunnington.u-net.com> <20011122023050.A26350@eskimo.eskimo.com> Message-ID: <10111221527.ZM23379@mindy.dunnington.u-net.com> On Nov 22, 2:30, Derek Peschel wrote: > On Thu, Nov 22, 2001 at 08:44:24AM +0000, Pete Turnbull wrote: > > That's a pity. They weren't always like that; the Apple ][ service manuals > > included complete schematics and diagnostic software, and the service > > Come on, Pete, you should know by now that Apple turned away from its > Apple ][ mentality the instant the Mac came out (if not before, like when > the Mac was being designed) and apparently hasn't looked back since. Well, yes, that's true. Although I'd moved on by then, it was apparently quite difficult to get information by the time the //e was around, even. To be honest, I'm not a great Apple fan. They tend to do things their own way, and then not tell you how they did them. -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager University of York From dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com Thu Nov 22 12:28:06 2001 From: dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com (Douglas Quebbeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:23:46 2005 Subject: Preserving old literature (was: Re: Tandy 10 Info Wanted) Message-ID: <7A9BACCEF0171D4FB77019F5104CDD37225964@jeffserver.tegjeff.com> > Aren't the copy machines you find in the libraries > designed to copy pages in a book without breaking it's > spine/back. Just makes copies at the library, then > scan the copies. There are copy machines that can optically adjust the image distortion that takes place as the page curves away from the scanning bed? Cool! We don't have them around here, tho... libraries around here are lucky to be able to keep the electricity on... -dq From mrbill at mrbill.net Thu Nov 22 12:34:02 2001 From: mrbill at mrbill.net (Bill Bradford) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:23:46 2005 Subject: Kalpana Etherswitch docs/firmware? Message-ID: <20011122123402.A13989@mrbill.net> They got bought by Cisco, which seems to have buried the product. Anybody got docs/firmware for either a Kalpana Etherswitch EPS-1500 or a 2015-RS? Thanks. Bill -- Bill Bradford mrbill@mrbill.net Austin, TX From cisin at xenosoft.com Thu Nov 22 12:59:25 2001 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin (XenoSoft)) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:23:46 2005 Subject: Preserving old literature (was: Re: Tandy 10 Info Wanted) In-Reply-To: <7A9BACCEF0171D4FB77019F5104CDD37225964@jeffserver.tegjeff.com> Message-ID: > > Aren't the copy machines you find in the libraries > > designed to copy pages in a book without breaking it's > > spine/back. Just makes copies at the library, then > > scan the copies. On Thu, 22 Nov 2001, Douglas Quebbeman wrote: > There are copy machines that can optically adjust the > image distortion that takes place as the page curves > away from the scanning bed? Although THEORETICALLY possible, don't expect to see anything like that in any real world library. BUT, ... some of the larger copiers do have a little more depth of focus, and therefore won't be as far out of focus on materials that aren't forced up against the glass. What really needs to be done is to unbind the materials, scan them, and re-bind them. You would need to remove the cover/spine very carefully to be able to reuse it (libraries typically will simply put a new cover on when they rebind stuff.) I have an Armarco "perfect binding" machine for sale ($100 with local pickup - Berkeley California), that theoretically could be used to do it by somebody with more skill than I have. -- Fred Cisin cisin@xenosoft.com XenoSoft http://www.xenosoft.com PO Box 1236 (510) 558-9366 Berkeley, CA 94701-1236 NOTE: My ISP is having difficulties. If you have problems reaching me at this e-mail address, you can leave a message at: cisin@info.sims.berkeley.edu fcisin@merritt.edu From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Thu Nov 22 13:32:24 2001 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (ajp166) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:23:46 2005 Subject: HardCard driver disks Message-ID: <002601c1738d$d8700ed0$89ee9a8d@ajp166> From: Chris >I've never had a problem READING 360k disks in a 1.2 drive. I have had >trouble writing them (but not always, and I think it might be related to >the disks being DD's, but formated as HD's and then back to DD's again... >not sure). And I do know when formatting them under dos, you need to Nope. the compatability is not symetric. You can read with 80track(1.2m) drives as the head width is narrower than the track for the 40 track(360k). You cannot relaibly write as the narrow 80tr head cannot fully erase a 40tr data track. You can fake it if you completely erase the media and use a 80tr drive to write but reading that reliably is poor. If you then write to that with a 40tr drive once again it will write the wider track. For that reason reading/writing across the 40/80 track drive sizes should be limited to read only save for special cases (emergency). My experience is that (read only) is adaquate. If you have cross compatability on read try erasing the disk completely first. Allison From dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com Thu Nov 22 14:39:34 2001 From: dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com (Douglas Quebbeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:23:46 2005 Subject: HardCard driver disks Message-ID: <7A9BACCEF0171D4FB77019F5104CDD37225969@jeffserver.tegjeff.com> > Nope. the compatability is not symetric. You can read with 80track(1.2m) > drives as the head width is narrower than the track for the 40 track(360k). > You cannot relaibly write as the narrow 80tr head cannot fully erase a 40tr > data track. You can fake it if you completely erase the media and use > a 80tr drive to write but reading that reliably is poor. If you then write to > that with a 40tr drive once again it will write the wider track. > > For that reason reading/writing across the 40/80 track drive sizes should > be limited to read only save for special cases (emergency). My experience > is that (read only) is adaquate. If you have cross compatability on read > try erasing the disk completely first. Someone used to market a utility in one of those microscopic ads in the back of Byte magazine that did double-track writes on the 80tr drives to yield diskettes that would read more reliably. Anyone have expericen with that? -dq From donm at cts.com Thu Nov 22 14:58:18 2001 From: donm at cts.com (Don Maslin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:23:46 2005 Subject: HardCard driver disks In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Wed, 21 Nov 2001, Sellam Ismail wrote: > On Wed, 21 Nov 2001, Sellam Ismail wrote: > > > I got so many requests that I'm just going to put the drivers up on my > > website so anyone who needs them can download them. I never realized so > > many people would want these. > > > > The first three people who got in requests will still get a disk. > > Everyone else can roll their own :) > > > > I'll post a message when I get those files up (probably late tonight). > > Ok, so what's the trouble with reading a 360K diskette on a 1.2MB drive? > I know we've covered this numerous times before but I'm too lazy to go > searching through the archives. There should be none unless these are some of the early 8-sector disks. Absent UniForm or some similar approach a late machine will surely choke. > I think I'll try to fire up an old school IBM PC with a 360K drive to see > if I have better luck. More likely to be successful with the above condition. - don > Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ > International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org > > From donm at cts.com Thu Nov 22 15:10:54 2001 From: donm at cts.com (Don Maslin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:23:46 2005 Subject: HardCard driver disks In-Reply-To: <200111221647.KAA65506@opal.tseinc.com> Message-ID: On Thu, 22 Nov 2001, Chris wrote: > >Ok, so what's the trouble with reading a 360K diskette on a 1.2MB drive? > >I know we've covered this numerous times before but I'm too lazy to go > >searching through the archives. > > > >I think I'll try to fire up an old school IBM PC with a 360K drive to see > >if I have better luck. > > I've never had a problem READING 360k disks in a 1.2 drive. I have had > trouble writing them (but not always, and I think it might be related to > the disks being DD's, but formated as HD's and then back to DD's again... > not sure). And I do know when formatting them under dos, you need to > specify that you are formatting a 360k disk in a 1.2 drive (/f is the > switch I think). Just specifying the size as 360k doesn't usually work > for me. > > -chris > > Writing to a DD disk in a HD 5.25" drive is hardly ever a problem if the disk has ben degaussed and then formatted as 360k in the HD drive. As you say, reading a 360 in the HD drive is a shoo-in. - don From vze2wsvr at verizon.net Thu Nov 22 14:41:02 2001 From: vze2wsvr at verizon.net (Eric Chomko) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:23:46 2005 Subject: Happy Thanksgiving, y'all...new find in... Message-ID: <3BFD62DE.7313216@mail.verizon.net> my basement of all places! An Olympia RO printer, that is bout serial and parallel and, uses a diasy-wheel instead of being dot matrix. Wow, I forgot that I had the thing! Eric From foo at siconic.com Thu Nov 22 15:19:36 2001 From: foo at siconic.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:23:46 2005 Subject: HardCard driver disks In-Reply-To: <3BFCB1AE.1D2029CB@rain.org> Message-ID: On Thu, 22 Nov 2001, Marvin Johnston wrote: > > Ok, so what's the trouble with reading a 360K diskette on a 1.2MB drive? > > I know we've covered this numerous times before but I'm too lazy to go > > searching through the archives. > > The problem is with writing on a 1.2 MB drive onto a disk that has > also been written with the 360K drive, and then trying to read the > resultant mess with a 360K drive. I've never run into problems reading > any 360K diskette with a 1.2 MB drive. Well I can't imagine all of these driver disks are bad :( I wasn't able to read any on my PC. I'll check first to make sure the drive is reading a known good disk, and if that's not the problem, then I'll try reading these with an old PC. If that doesn't work, I guess these are worthless. Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org From spectre at stockholm.ptloma.edu Thu Nov 22 15:49:08 2001 From: spectre at stockholm.ptloma.edu (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:23:46 2005 Subject: Fixing an eMate Message-ID: <200111222149.NAA11466@stockholm.ptloma.edu> Just checking if there's anyone out there who might have some connections for repairing an Apple eMate 300 with a shattered screen. Anywhere to buy parts or perhaps an intact (just dead) eMate I can grab the LCD from? -- ----------------------------- personal page: http://www.armory.com/~spectre/ -- Cameron Kaiser, Point Loma Nazarene University * ckaiser@stockholm.ptloma.edu -- The world will end at 3 p.m. today, to be followed by a brief symposium. --- From nerdware at laidbak.com Thu Nov 22 15:54:15 2001 From: nerdware at laidbak.com (Paul Braun) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:23:46 2005 Subject: NeXTs (was Re: Radio Shack abandons components) In-Reply-To: <3BFC701E.3060008@texoma.net> Message-ID: <3BFD1FA7.26605.27BF350A@localhost> > The guy who found the sh*tload of NeXT's found himself over his head > trying to inventory and test them all, so he sold them to Rob at > http://www.blackholeinc.com . Rob is one of the two best places to > get NeXT equipment around. The other place is Randy at > http://www.channelu.com . Of course there is always evilbay. There > is a nice Turbo Color slab sitting at $73.00 right now. > That's a different story than I got.....after months, I finally got a reply (I was on the original list and had money in hand...) He told me he gave them to some school or something. Guess he didn't want us to know he sold them to a dealer. Just wish I had heard from him sooner....I passed on a couple of deals because I still thought I had a couple coming from him. Oh, well. They made more. I'll get one someday, and then it'll sit next (or is that NeXT) to my Lisa 2.... Paul Braun WD9GCO Cygnus Productions nerdware_nospam@laidbak.com "A computer without a Microsoft operating system is like a dog without a bunch of bricks tied to its head." From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Nov 22 13:56:42 2001 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:23:46 2005 Subject: 1771 floppy controller questions In-Reply-To: <000e01c172ee$555b1520$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> from "Richard Erlacher" at Nov 21, 1 05:40:49 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 792 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20011122/9715683c/attachment.ksh From edick at idcomm.com Thu Nov 22 19:51:06 2001 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:23:46 2005 Subject: 1771 floppy controller questions References: Message-ID: <001a01c173c1$50ea4fa0$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> I was concerned that if he clipped his device onto a 3-voltage device, the test device would go poof. if it's external to the application, it doesn't matter, since the test device provides the supplies. I have a few of those old HP IC test clips, and the ones I have are all malfunctioning in some way due to abuse prior to their falling into my possession. That's actually why I have them. Dick ----- Original Message ----- From: "Tony Duell" To: Sent: Thursday, November 22, 2001 12:56 PM Subject: Re: 1771 floppy controller questions > > > > You'll want to be careful with the early DRAMs, as they used 3 supply rails, and > > your tester of 5-volt-only DRAMs may die from application to a 3-supply DRAM. > > It's unlikely that an 3-rail DRAM chip will damage the tester (it's not > going to magically apply overvoltage to the tester's inputs if it's only > fed with a 5V supply). But it's not going to work, and in some cases it > might damage the DRAM (some of the older DRAMs would fail if the -ve bias > supply was missing IIRC). > > 64K bit chips and above are +5V only in my experience. 4K bit and below > are almost always multiple supply rail types, and some of them had logic > inputs (clock/select) that needed higher-than-TTL levels. 16K bit are > normally 3 rail (4116 and equivalents), but +5V only ones exist (4816 IIRC). > > -tony > > From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Nov 22 20:07:37 2001 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:23:46 2005 Subject: 1771 floppy controller questions In-Reply-To: <001a01c173c1$50ea4fa0$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> from "Richard Erlacher" at Nov 22, 1 06:51:06 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 353 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20011123/0c141055/attachment.ksh From edick at idcomm.com Thu Nov 22 21:47:31 2001 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:23:46 2005 Subject: 1771 floppy controller questions References: Message-ID: <001701c173d1$94ae6220$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> HP made a series of device testers that live on a test clip that you plug on in-situ, and if it's designed for one set of supplies, and you hook up another, you may not be pleased with the results. I've got a few of those out-of-circuit testers, but the one I thing he (Tothwolf) is using is one of the type I'm referring to. It would be a shame to damage one, as it can test a soldered-in part without first unsoldering it. Dick ----- Original Message ----- From: "Tony Duell" To: Sent: Thursday, November 22, 2001 7:07 PM Subject: Re: 1771 floppy controller questions > > > > I was concerned that if he clipped his device onto a 3-voltage device, the test > > device would go poof. > > Most (all?) DRAM testers that I've seen test just the chips/simms out of > the circuit. It makes sense, since that way they can drive the address > lines, RAS/, CAS/, etc and veryify that the RAM works correctly on all > locations, etc. > > -tony > > From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Nov 22 14:00:03 2001 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:23:46 2005 Subject: 1771 floppy controller questions In-Reply-To: <001601c172ef$62e353a0$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> from "Richard Erlacher" at Nov 21, 1 05:48:22 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1155 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20011122/3cfdf92f/attachment.ksh From vance at ikickass.org Thu Nov 22 16:32:38 2001 From: vance at ikickass.org (One Without Reason) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:23:46 2005 Subject: 1771 floppy controller questions In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Thu, 22 Nov 2001, Tony Duell wrote: > > > > It's more a matter of room than time right now, as my old "shop" is packed > > > > floor to ceiling with computers, parts, and so on. My benches are also > > > > currently covered up with even more parts and boxes. > > > > > > I know exactly what you mean.... :-) > > > > Guess it comes with collecting eh? > > Especially if you collect minicomputers :-) Even more if you collect mainframes, like me. 8-) Peace... Sridhar From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Nov 22 14:04:10 2001 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:23:46 2005 Subject: Mac Restore CDs/Manuals In-Reply-To: from "Chris" at Nov 21, 1 08:11:17 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1827 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20011122/92f59b93/attachment.ksh From donm at cts.com Thu Nov 22 16:43:04 2001 From: donm at cts.com (Don Maslin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:23:46 2005 Subject: Mac Restore CDs/Manuals In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Thu, 22 Nov 2001, Tony Duell wrote: > > > > >I have a non working 128k unit I'd sure like to get around to fixing...It > > >actually worked before I located a keyboard and mouse for it, I think I > > >used the wrong type of keyboard cable. When I powered it up with the > > >keyboard, heard a snap, and it didn't work anymore :/ > > > > YIKES! Has it been established through all this dialogue that the machine will still boot? If so, I have missed it. - don > > Yeah, the keyboard cable is supposed to be straight pinned (or was that > > cross pinned... no it was straight pinned). A standard phone cable is > > It's straight through. certainly. > > > cross pinned (or was that straight pinned... no was cross pinned... LOL). > > If you use a standard phone cable, you will fry the keyboard controller > > chip. I am sure that was the snap you heard. > > Yes, you swap round +5V and ground at the keyboard. This is likely to > kill he microcontroller (8021 in early keyboards, 8048 in Mac+ keyboards > IIRC). > > > You can always use the mouse and the Key Caps desk accessory, type by > > clicking the letters, then choose cut and paste to move it to whatever > > you are trying to type in... PITA, but it actually does work (I had to do > > it once when my sister took the keyboard away from me, and I had to get a > > The keyboard protocol is documented in Inside Macintosh IIRC. I am > wondering if it would be quicker to use the Key Caps DA to type a > reasonable amount of text or convince some other machine to pretend to be > a keyboard. Preactially, I hate repetitive jobs, so I'd probably have a > go at the latter (and if the school paper had been anything remotely > technical and I'd not finished it in time, I'd have explained my > attempted hack to replace the keyboard and hoped that the teacher would > understand :-)). > > > paper finished for school... it took me all night, but I finished it... > > and promptly beat the stuffing out of her the next morning) > > Seems entirely reasonable :-) > > -tony > From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Nov 22 14:33:55 2001 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:23:46 2005 Subject: Mac Restore CDs/Manuals In-Reply-To: <10111221527.ZM23379@mindy.dunnington.u-net.com> from "Pete Turnbull" at Nov 22, 1 03:27:09 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 588 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20011122/c2feb910/attachment.ksh From donm at cts.com Thu Nov 22 16:48:14 2001 From: donm at cts.com (Don Maslin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:23:46 2005 Subject: Mac Restore CDs/Manuals In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Thu, 22 Nov 2001, Tothwolf wrote: > On Thu, 22 Nov 2001, Tothwolf wrote: > > > I think the fuse was ok. I think I can get to this machine, and may pull > > it out tonight. I'll check the chopper and related components. > > Well, I don't know where that machine is burried...Found a non-functional > 1MB unit tho. It powers up, but it displays vertical bars of corrupted > characters. Yet another project I guess :P > > -Toth > I have an LC with a display rather like that caused by a missing Video RAM 72-pin SIMM. - don From optimus at canit.se Fri Nov 23 01:58:47 2001 From: optimus at canit.se (Iggy Drougge) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:23:46 2005 Subject: Mac Restore CDs/Manuals In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <224.727T2350T5386375optimus@canit.se> Don Maslin skrev: >I have an LC with a display rather like that caused by a missing Video >RAM 72-pin SIMM. 68-pin, IIRC. -- En ligne avec Thor 2.6a. You can have SEX with a Dragon but not with an Apple. -- Tony Duell From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Nov 22 14:17:09 2001 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:23:46 2005 Subject: I'm guessing you have solved this problem... In-Reply-To: <002601c172f3$01f77ae0$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> from "Richard Erlacher" at Nov 21, 1 06:14:17 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 4636 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20011122/76a5763c/attachment.ksh From edick at idcomm.com Thu Nov 22 19:57:32 2001 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:23:46 2005 Subject: I'm guessing you have solved this problem... References: Message-ID: <002201c173c2$3718b3e0$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> The current version of the "design expert" software from Lattice, which acquired the PLD business form AMD, which, decades ago, acquired MMI, which made these parts, probably, is freeware, and is quite capable of translating any set of logic equiations into a jedec file suitable for programming a 16V8, which is an adequate substitute for and superset of any of the 16Lx and 16Rx parts of yesteryear. It will reduce the equations, though I have doubts about taking truth table input. Of course, ATMEL distributes a free verison of ABEL that may well take truth table input and produce a JEDEC file, which the LATTICE software will then disassemble into something it can decipher into a 16V8. Where there's a will, there's mourners ... Dick ----- Original Message ----- From: "Tony Duell" To: Sent: Thursday, November 22, 2001 1:17 PM Subject: Re: I'm guessing you have solved this problem... > > > > Just how fast do these devices have to be, and how deep are they? I've got > > some > > > > > > 10's of ns at worst. And typically 256*4 bits or so. > > > > > So those would be 82S129's or the like? There are some such devices that still > > That sort of thing, yes... > > > show up in popular surplus supplies. > > Exactly. Of course you want to be sure that any you buy surplus have > never been programmed. There is no way to erase these devices. Ditto for > PALs, of course. > > > > Well, if you want to take a dump of the PROM, work out the logic > > > equations from it, then fit them into a PAL, and get it working, good > > > luck :-) > > > > > The PROM is listed as a truth-table, right? The only ABEL version I used simply > > Basically, yes. It's a bitwise dump of the PROM, not always formatted in > the obvious way (the microcode PROMs have the dump displayed as the > values in particular fields, which may be 1 bit long, 2 bits long, 3 bits > long, etc). You'd have to turn that into a pure binary dump. > > > took a truth table as input. That wouldn't take much processing. > > > If the logic will fit into a PAL and if you have suitable software. > > > > Yes, some PROMs were used as logic functions rather than (say) microcode > > > store. But it's not that easy to replace them with PALs (it's possible in > > > some cases to fit the logic into a small-ish PAL). It's a lot easier to > > > use a PROM/EPROM device. > > > > > If one doesn't have a suitable bit of software, that Quine-McLuskey (?) method > > Which is, of course, how most PAL compilers do logic optimisation. > > > that I learned about in college some 30+ years back (and promptly forgot) can be > > automated easily enough to produce reduced equations. Reducing the prom listing > > to a set of equations by isolating each bit in the output word and OR'ing the > > locations at which those bits are true is one reasonably way to do the job. I > > know of no PAL generation software that doesn't automatically reduce the > > equations for you. > > Some of the free stuff doesn't. I have a freeware (I think, it came from > National Semiconductors via Elektor as part of the software for their GAL > programmer project) GAL compiler that does no optimistations at all. It's > simple-minded, but at least it never does something that you don't expect! > > > > > PROMs are programmable-OR-fixed-AND devices, while PALs are programmable > > AND-fixed-OR devices. The process of generating them is, therefore different, > > Of course... > > > for a given logic function, but, expanded and re-reduced, the result should be > > the same. Of course a registered PROM is needed to produced registered outputs. > > Yes, but we are replacing PROMs with PALs, not the reverse. There are > registers PROMs (82S114 and 82S115 spring to mind), but they weren't used > in the 11/45 CPU. In any case, registered PALs are easy enough to find. > > > I'd say a 16L8 would do for most PROM-based applications. A 16L8 is capable of > > generating any logic function of 16 inputs. A 256x4 or 32x8 PROM has less logic > > Absolute rubbish. There are plenty of 16 input, 1 output, functions that > will not fit into a 16L8. The obvious way to see that is that to specify > an arbitrary 16 input function takes 64K bits (there are 2^16 lines in > the truth table, you need one bit to specify the output for each one). > The programming data for a 16L8 is much less than 64K bits (I seem to > remember it's around 3K). Therefore there are functions you can't stick > into the 16L8. > > As a trivial example, suppose have 16 inputs (allowing 2 outputs). And > that we're already using one of the outputs for a function we can fit. > Then the following function will not fit in a 16L8 AFAIK : > > Output = (I0 + I1 + I2 + I3 + I4 + I5 + I6 + I7 + I8 + I9 + I10 + I11 + I12)/ > > The final / is there because the OR matrix in a 16L8 is really a NOR > matrix. That expression needs 13 inputs to the OR matrix, IIRC there are > something like 7 or 8. Demorgan doesn't help because you can't invert the > whole exprrssion in a 16L8. Even with a 16V8, where you can invert the > whole thing and turn it into an AND expression that will fit, it's not > hard to think up expressions that can't be simplified into < 8 terms ORed > together. > > Expressions with multiple XOR terms are notoriously difficult to fit into > most PALs. You run out of OR terms very quickly. There were some special > PALs (16X4?) with XOR gates in them to get round this problem, but they > are not common, they're hard to find blanks for now, and most GALs can't > be configured to replace them. > > > > than that in it. > > > Not so. A 256*4 PROM effectively has some 256 input OR gates in it. These > do not exist in PALs. > > -tony > > From menadeau at mediaone.net Thu Nov 22 18:30:10 2001 From: menadeau at mediaone.net (Michael Nadeau) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:23:46 2005 Subject: Preserving old literature (was: Re: Tandy 10 Info Wanted) References: Message-ID: <007701c173b6$06c4fde0$0b01a8c0@ValuedCustomer> I had a problem doing what you describe with old issues of BYTE. The trim sizes on a lot of the old magazines left little margin, and text was almost always cut off. General rule of thumb: The thicker the magazine, the more likely the publisher trimmed the width and height. Some BYTEs and 80 Micros weighed nearly 2 pounds, and the publishers were desperate to get that down to save shipping and paper costs. --Mike Michael Nadeau Editorial Services 603-893-2379 ----- Original Message ----- From: "Matt London" To: Sent: Thursday, November 22, 2001 8:04 AM Subject: Re: Preserving old literature (was: Re: Tandy 10 Info Wanted) > Hi, > > > > > I don't have any duplicates, so taking them apart in such a way that ruins > > > > them isn't an option for me. I guess I need to find an expert on book > > > > binding and see what they can come up with. Maybe there is a special > > > > scanner out there that was made for doing this kind of thing? > > > > > > Aren't the copy machines you find in the libraries designed to copy > > > pages in a book without breaking it's spine/back. Just makes copies at > > > the library, then scan the copies. > > > > The copy machines the local library here has are standard units. They also > > charge 10-15 cents a page, and are very much in need of an overhaul and > > cleaning (very poor copies). I have a very old 3 pass HP scanner that may > > be ok for scanning this stuff, but I'm not sure yet. The spines of these > > old magazines are much thinner and much more brittle then those found in > > most paperback books. > > I've found that hanging one edge of the magazine over the side of the > scanner works - you have to put the scanner on something thin and tall, so > the whole side of the magazine droops down - the only problem then is the > width of the plastic edges of the scanner surface/sides of scanner > > -- Matt > > --- > PGP Key fingerprint = 00BF 19FE D5F5 8EAD 2FD5 D102 260E 8BA7 EEE4 8D7F > PGP Key http://knm.yi.org/matt-pgp.html > > From gwynp at artware.qc.ca Thu Nov 22 19:25:04 2001 From: gwynp at artware.qc.ca (gwynp@artware.qc.ca) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:23:46 2005 Subject: New find : AT&T Unix PC7300 Message-ID: I was given this today. It has a tape backup (and controler board) and the DOS-73 "emulation" board w/ 8087 upgrade (but no 8088... are those NCR chips 8088 clones?). Included is full system software and docs. I wonder if the 5.25 inch disks are still readable. The computer is slightly dirty on the outside and dusty inside (on the expansion boards). I think I'll wait untill i can dust out the insides a bit before powering it. So now I have a Real UNIX(tm) computer! heh. -Philip From m_05 at hotmail.com Thu Nov 22 20:58:44 2001 From: m_05 at hotmail.com (momma 05) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:23:46 2005 Subject: I wrote 'Nuke Redmond' Message-ID: shut up cuttie -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20011122/064aaaa5/attachment.html From jrice at texoma.net Thu Nov 22 22:06:13 2001 From: jrice at texoma.net (James L. Rice) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:23:46 2005 Subject: NeXTs (was Re: Radio Shack abandons components) References: <3BFD1FA7.26605.27BF350A@localhost> Message-ID: <3BFDCB35.7070500@texoma.net> Now that's a machine that I really want. I have a lead on a couple of Lisa 2's if the guy ever gets them out of his storage building. Paul Braun wrote: > >Oh, well. They made more. I'll get one someday, and then it'll sit >next (or is that NeXT) to my Lisa 2.... > > > > >Paul Braun WD9GCO >Cygnus Productions >nerdware_nospam@laidbak.com > >"A computer without a Microsoft operating system is like a dog without a bunch of bricks tied to its head." > >. > From mythtech at Mac.com Fri Nov 23 00:12:46 2001 From: mythtech at Mac.com (Chris) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:23:46 2005 Subject: NeXTs (was Re: Radio Shack abandons components) Message-ID: <200111230612.AAA71689@opal.tseinc.com> >Now that's a machine that I really want. I have a lead on a couple of >Lisa 2's if the guy ever gets them out of his storage building. If you get an extra, send one my way! -chris From rcini at optonline.net Thu Nov 22 22:15:45 2001 From: rcini at optonline.net (Richard A. Cini, Jr.) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:23:46 2005 Subject: Altair32 Update - 11/22/01 Message-ID: Hello, all: I got another disk image working -- AltairDOS. And again, I have no manuals so I'm running a bit blind. This image seems to boot to a monitor program and a dot prompt. Does anyone have a command list to go with this? I've also gotten some error codes, so I probably need the whole manual. Also, I'm having a bit of a tough time...because of the configuration of the images I'm using, the status bits returned from the console are the exact opposite of a BASIC implementation. So with the emulator one could use *either* BASIC tapes *or* CP/M for example. So, I'd like to put out a call for someone with the code for a CP/M 2.2 BIOS for an Altair with the MITS floppy controller and an SIO or 2SIO serial card. Also, I'm going to need a layout of the floppy format because I will probably have to write some disk image manipulation tools for Windows so that I can regenerate a bootable CP/M image (straight T/S increments). On a positive note, I was able to get the integrated debugger that I borrowed from Jim Battle's Solace project working. This will prove to be a big help later on. Thanks Jim! Again, any help from those with a real Altair is greatly appreciated. Rich Rich Cini Collector of classic computers Build Master for the Altair32 Emulation Project Web site: http://highgate.comm.sfu.ca/~rcini/classiccmp/ /************************************************************/ From optimus at canit.se Fri Nov 23 01:25:24 2001 From: optimus at canit.se (Iggy Drougge) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:23:46 2005 Subject: Mac SE Sigma Video Card In-Reply-To: <20011122095955.A17434@eskimo.eskimo.com> Message-ID: <1138.727T1200T5054785optimus@canit.se> Derek Peschel skrev: >If you had a one-page display card the resolutionn would be even weirder >(the actual monitors are really tall and thin, the same proportions as >one 8.5x11" page). I have two Sigma portrait displays. They're lovely. They're identical to the Apple portrait display, only in a less square package, and I think the display's a bit crisper, too. On older Macs, they require particular display cards, but they'll plug straight into most anything newer than a IIci. The max depth you'll get out of them with built-in video is 16 shades of grey. I've managed to drive them with a high-end RasterOps card at all the shades of grey you could ever require, though. There was a PC adaptor available, too. I saw one a few years ago at an electronics dealer's, still sealed. Portrait displays are a technology which is sadly extinct nowadays. Nevertheless, the old PARC machines used such displays, even at a similar resolution to Apple's. They occupy less space on the table and are ideal for wordprocessing. -- En ligne avec Thor 2.6a. /"\ \ / ASCII Ribbon X Campaign Against / \ HTML Mail! From mranalog at home.com Fri Nov 23 01:25:41 2001 From: mranalog at home.com (Doug Coward) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:23:46 2005 Subject: Trinary circuits Message-ID: <3BFDF9F5.47354AF9@home.com> "Iggy Drougge" wrote: > This might interest some of the perverts out there: > http://www.trinary.cc/ The web site's tutorial says: > The trinary math system utilizes the 3 natural states > of electrical current flow. A wire conducts in one > direction, or the other, or not at all. Base 4 would > need to have 4 states, which don?t naturally exist. Somebody forgot to spread the word! Scientists Build Tiny Computer From DNA http://news.excite.com/news/r/011121/14/science-science-dnacomputer-dc > The double helix molecule that contains human genes > stores data on four chemical bases -- known by the > letters A, T, C and G -- giving it massive memory > capability that scientists are only just beginning > to tap into. Regards, --Doug ========================================= Doug Coward @ home in Poulsbo, WA Analog Computer Online Museum and History Center http://www.best.com/~dcoward/analog ========================================= From optimus at canit.se Thu Nov 22 05:34:14 2001 From: optimus at canit.se (Iggy Drougge) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:23:46 2005 Subject: FreeTradeZone site moving to subscription-only for olderparts In-Reply-To: <3.0.2.32.20011121065849.010878b8@obregon.multi.net.co> Message-ID: <398.726T700T7544397optimus@canit.se> Carlos Murillo skrev: >At 09:02 AM 11/21/01 +0100, Iggy wrote: >>David Woyciesjes skrev: >> >>>Maybe runs a full-tilt website crawler/archiver program? The kind that >>>grabs whetever pages you tell it, for offline reading, or some such thing? >> >>Wget. >I thought you did not like wget. I don't, but that's beside the point. The name of the program is still Wget. -- En ligne avec Thor 2.6a. From optimus at canit.se Thu Nov 22 10:10:56 2001 From: optimus at canit.se (Iggy Drougge) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:23:46 2005 Subject: OT: paging MAC expert(s) --- What's a Performa? In-Reply-To: <3BFA3562.9C18C21E@verizon.net> Message-ID: <665.726T2800T10306541optimus@canit.se> Ian Koller skrev: >> I don't know what a guy's to do. I guess image-copying the disk >> to tape, empty space and all, is the only solution. >The best device to back up a hard drive to is ... another hard >drive. Fastest speed transfers. And as inexpensive as hard drives >are these days, why not? In DOS, and even Win9x ... xcopy Hard drives are expensive and messy. I prefer tape, they are cheap, there are well-established back-up functions, and they don't require opening any boxes. BTW, you could all think of snipping /a lot/ more. -- En ligne avec Thor 2.6a. Menyn ?r inte lika sexig som telnet, det ?r h?rt men sant. Petri Oksanen #38 p? SUGA BBS From vze2mnvr at verizon.net Fri Nov 23 03:01:40 2001 From: vze2mnvr at verizon.net (Ian Koller) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:23:46 2005 Subject: OT: paging MAC expert(s) --- What's a Performa? References: <665.726T2800T10306541optimus@canit.se> Message-ID: <3BFE1074.D86E48FE@verizon.net> Iggy Drougge wrote: > Hard drives are expensive and messy. What's a 40 Gb hard drive cost in Sweden? Anybody know what a 40 Gb is at CompUSA here in the US? Iggy Drougge wrote: > > Ian Koller skrev: > > >> I don't know what a guy's to do. I guess image-copying the disk > >> to tape, empty space and all, is the only solution. > > >The best device to back up a hard drive to is ... another hard > >drive. Fastest speed transfers. And as inexpensive as hard drives > >are these days, why not? In DOS, and even Win9x ... xcopy > > Hard drives are expensive and messy. I prefer tape, they are cheap, there are > well-established back-up functions, and they don't require opening any boxes. > > BTW, you could all think of snipping /a lot/ more. > > -- > En ligne avec Thor 2.6a. > > Menyn ?r inte lika sexig som telnet, det ?r h?rt men sant. > Petri Oksanen #38 p? SUGA BBS From optimus at canit.se Fri Nov 23 01:05:48 2001 From: optimus at canit.se (Iggy Drougge) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:23:46 2005 Subject: OT: paging MAC expert(s) --- What's a Performa? In-Reply-To: <200111212336.PAA12136@stockholm.ptloma.edu> Message-ID: <851.727T2400T4855861optimus@canit.se> Cameron Kaiser skrev: >> Doing email through a shell account was pretty painful, with the slow >> serial link handlers that UNIX shell accounts offered. The Windows-based >> email handlers embedded in Internet Explorer, Netscape, etc, or Eudora, >> which was separate, were all MUCH easier and quicker to deal with. >Maybe Pine sucked over a serial line, but Elm is much less termcap-spendy. I >still use Elm to read my E-mail. Man was meant to read mail on-spool. Pine works fine if you connect at 14k4 or more. At very slow speeds (~2k4), it will even adjust itself to a less chatty behaviour with a lot of less ANSI sequences. -- En ligne avec Thor 2.6a. "Computer games don't affect kids, I mean if Pac Man affected us as kids, we'd all be running around in darkened rooms, munching pills and listening to repetitive music." David McMinn From tothwolf at concentric.net Fri Nov 23 03:21:51 2001 From: tothwolf at concentric.net (Tothwolf) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:23:46 2005 Subject: 1771 floppy controller questions In-Reply-To: <001701c173d1$94ae6220$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> Message-ID: On Thu, 22 Nov 2001, Richard Erlacher wrote: > From: "Tony Duell" > > > Most (all?) DRAM testers that I've seen test just the chips/simms out of > > the circuit. It makes sense, since that way they can drive the address > > lines, RAS/, CAS/, etc and veryify that the RAM works correctly on all > > locations, etc. > > HP made a series of device testers that live on a test clip that you > plug on in-situ, and if it's designed for one set of supplies, and you > hook up another, you may not be pleased with the results. I've got a > few of those out-of-circuit testers, but the one I thing he (Tothwolf) > is using is one of the type I'm referring to. It would be a shame to > damage one, as it can test a soldered-in part without first > unsoldering it. The tester set I have is designed for out of circuit use. Both units are labeled 'ramcheck' and list the manufacturer as Innoventions, Inc. Houston, TX. The tester supports 64k and 256k according to the label. I opened up the tester, and found it contains an AMD 8088, a 27C32 eprom, and a single dram chip, along with a mix of 74LS ttl logic chips. From the looks of it, I could modify it to support 1024s and likely support older chips if I design some sort of interface board. The speed checker unit is designed to be used in-line with the tester (or maybe in circuit?), as it has a ribbon cable with dip idc header on one end. It has a knob for voltage selection labeled; Off, 4.5V, 5V, 5.5V, NR. I'm not sure what the NR stands for, maybe no regulation? The other control is a 16 position rotary switch (0-15), which is used x10 for speed selection in ns. Its logic board contains a 7805 regulator, a handful of 74LS ttl, and a few other chips I'd need to look up in a databook (Possibly a PROM and some clock generators?) -Toth From tothwolf at concentric.net Fri Nov 23 03:28:47 2001 From: tothwolf at concentric.net (Tothwolf) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:23:46 2005 Subject: 1771 floppy controller questions In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Thu, 22 Nov 2001, One Without Reason wrote: > On Thu, 22 Nov 2001, Tony Duell wrote: > > > > > > It's more a matter of room than time right now, as my old "shop" is packed > > > > > floor to ceiling with computers, parts, and so on. My benches are also > > > > > currently covered up with even more parts and boxes. > > > > > > > > I know exactly what you mean.... :-) > > > > > > Guess it comes with collecting eh? > > > > Especially if you collect minicomputers :-) > > Even more if you collect mainframes, like me. 8-) Well, my favorite stuff to collect is old SGI and Sun gear. It can take up quite a bit of room in a hurry, especially if you have monitors for them. -Toth From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Nov 22 14:27:39 2001 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:23:46 2005 Subject: 1771 floppy controller questions In-Reply-To: from "Tothwolf" at Nov 22, 1 05:12:29 am Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 4551 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20011122/88e6c48b/attachment.ksh From vze2mnvr at verizon.net Fri Nov 23 00:15:19 2001 From: vze2mnvr at verizon.net (Ian Koller) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:23:46 2005 Subject: Preserving old literature (was: Re: Tandy 10 Info Wanted) References: <7A9BACCEF0171D4FB77019F5104CDD37225964@jeffserver.tegjeff.com> Message-ID: <3BFDE977.ADA8C55C@verizon.net> Douglas Quebbeman wrote: > There are copy machines that can optically adjust the > image distortion that takes place as the page curves > away from the scanning bed? Matt London wrote: > the only problem then is the width of the plastic edges > of the scanner surface/sides of scanner That's not what I said. What I was referring to was copiers where the edge of the copying area comes very close ( within margin's distance ) of the side of the machine, so the other half of the book hangs over the side, and copying can be performed with the book, etc. opened to about a 90 degree angle instead of having to try to open it flat, i.e. 180 degrees. Douglas Quebbeman wrote: > We don't have them around here, tho... libraries > around here are lucky to be able to keep the > electricity on... Tothwolf wrote: > and are very much in need of an overhaul and > cleaning (very poor copies). I swear, from some of the things you folks say, it seems like most of you live in some third world country. Douglas Quebbeman wrote: > > > Aren't the copy machines you find in the libraries > > designed to copy pages in a book without breaking it's > > spine/back. Just makes copies at the library, then > > scan the copies. > > There are copy machines that can optically adjust the > image distortion that takes place as the page curves > away from the scanning bed? > > Cool! > > We don't have them around here, tho... libraries > around here are lucky to be able to keep the > electricity on... > > -dq From tothwolf at concentric.net Fri Nov 23 03:55:50 2001 From: tothwolf at concentric.net (Tothwolf) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:23:46 2005 Subject: 1771 floppy controller questions In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Thu, 22 Nov 2001, Tony Duell wrote: > > At the time I thought the particular lead might have not been used, and or > > someone damaged it when installing the chip. I had never seen a chip with > > IIRC, the DRAMs in the model 3 are 16K * 1 4116s or similar. All the pins > are used on these chips. If a pin is missing, then you are going to have > problems... I wonder if it would be worth soldering a new pin to what's left of that chip's lead? It looked like it had just corroded off, but with no other signs of moisture, I was kinda puzzled. > > Teflon seems to be very very tough compared to whatever kind of plastic > > they used in those older cables. What kind of current goes thru these > > cables? Would it be possible to use one of the more flexible carbon types > > instead of tin plated copper? > > In the Model 3/4 it's just logic level signals. There's a separate power > connector on the disk controller board. But I suspect that carbon-cable > would have too high a resistance to be reliable (if nothing else it's > going to delay the signals somewhat due to the RC time constant of the > cable and the input capacitance of the chips on the board). Probably not > a good idea. Sounds like I may have to experiment a little once I get some clear bench space ;) > > Could also use an SIL amp/berg connector and crimp pins to ribbon cable. > > Might look a little more original, but it would take allot more work to > > assemble then pressing on an IDC connector. > > It's a lot slower to assemble, and it's actually slightly taller. Also, > those SIL Berg/Amp/Molex connectors are difficult to find in >10 way > sizes (yes, they're made, but nobody seems to stock them). I prefer to > use parts I can get in 1-off quantities :-) I can often find them in large sizes, and use an a sharp X-acto to trim them to whatever pin count I need. [If anyone decides to try this, be very very careful, those blades are extremely sharp, and will cut thru the connector slow at first, then slice thru the remaining material very fast.] The leftovers can be recycled for even shorter connectors. This would not be economical for more then a few dozen connectors however. > > Well, if this is the machine that would not even turn on, that could > > explain something...I know the factory seals had already been broken. I > > Argh!. If the sound board has been plugged into the PSU output there's no > way of knowing what else has been misconnected and what damage has been > done. That's one reason to give a machine a complete visual inspection > before applying power, hoping that if things are totally misconnected > that the previous owner didn't power the machine up like that (some hope, > I know). I think that machine is the model 4, which I think came from a surplus dealer. There is no way of knowing what all someone tried to do to this thing before I bought it. The model 3 came from a thrift shop, and seemed to be in much better overall shape, and may have still had its factory seals intact. -Toth From tothwolf at concentric.net Fri Nov 23 03:58:36 2001 From: tothwolf at concentric.net (Tothwolf) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:23:46 2005 Subject: Preserving old literature (was: Re: Tandy 10 Info Wanted) In-Reply-To: <3BFDE977.ADA8C55C@verizon.net> Message-ID: On Fri, 23 Nov 2001, Ian Koller wrote: > Douglas Quebbeman wrote: > > We don't have them around here, tho... libraries > > around here are lucky to be able to keep the > > electricity on... > > Tothwolf wrote: > > and are very much in need of an overhaul and > > cleaning (very poor copies). > > > I swear, from some of the things you folks say, it > seems like most of you live in some third world country. Nah, just cities/states where the local government would rather spend money on fancy buildings and $1000 toilet seats instead of stuff the community can actually make use of. -Toth From guerney at bigpond.com Fri Nov 23 05:22:00 2001 From: guerney at bigpond.com (Phil Guerney) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:23:46 2005 Subject: Say it ain't so, Joe! References: <3.0.6.32.20011121112616.007b4100@mailhost.intellistar.net> Message-ID: <00c301c17411$15608e40$7937fea9@Guerney> Joe said > about 20 > HP 9825s with loads of accessories; about 15 HP 85s again with loads of > manuals, ROMS, etc; several HP 9920s including a full blown and loaded one > that came from Litton Laser Systems; several 9826s and 9836s including a > 9836CU; and bunches of interfaces and peripherals for the above. Also a > dead 9830 and a dead 9821, parts of a 9835, several 9845s .... > But I don't have time to ship them so you HAVE TO come get them. What an opportunity for someone to do a once-in-a-lifetime favour! Maybe somebody planning to visit Joe may be prepared to pack and send a system or two, for adequate compensation of course. All I want is one working 9825 with manuals/accessories, and a working monochrome monitor for a 9845. There was one message already on the list about a bulk pick-up, but it was hard to understand just what was grabbed. Anyway, let me know if something is possible. Ta Phil From Golemancd at aol.com Fri Nov 23 07:28:33 2001 From: Golemancd at aol.com (Golemancd@aol.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:23:46 2005 Subject: panasonic hhc found hhc chips Message-ID: <31.1e2a4b1d.292fa901@aol.com> so i found the chips to the hhc but they are all those allstate chips i dont know if they have anything on them other than the insurance programs Joee From edick at idcomm.com Fri Nov 23 09:22:24 2001 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:23:46 2005 Subject: OT: paging MAC expert(s) --- What's a Performa? References: <665.726T2800T10306541optimus@canit.se> <3BFE1074.D86E48FE@verizon.net> Message-ID: <002101c17432$a7422000$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> Can you still get a drive that small? Dick ----- Original Message ----- From: "Ian Koller" To: Sent: Friday, November 23, 2001 2:01 AM Subject: Re: OT: paging MAC expert(s) --- What's a Performa? > > Iggy Drougge wrote: > > Hard drives are expensive and messy. > > What's a 40 Gb hard drive cost in Sweden? > > Anybody know what a 40 Gb is at CompUSA here in the US? > > > > > Iggy Drougge wrote: > > > > Ian Koller skrev: > > > > >> I don't know what a guy's to do. I guess image-copying the disk > > >> to tape, empty space and all, is the only solution. > > > > >The best device to back up a hard drive to is ... another hard > > >drive. Fastest speed transfers. And as inexpensive as hard drives > > >are these days, why not? In DOS, and even Win9x ... xcopy > > > > Hard drives are expensive and messy. I prefer tape, they are cheap, there are > > well-established back-up functions, and they don't require opening any boxes. > > > > BTW, you could all think of snipping /a lot/ more. > > > > -- > > En ligne avec Thor 2.6a. > > > > Menyn ?r inte lika sexig som telnet, det ?r h?rt men sant. > > Petri Oksanen #38 p? SUGA BBS > > From optimus at canit.se Fri Nov 23 11:30:18 2001 From: optimus at canit.se (Iggy Drougge) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:23:46 2005 Subject: OT: paging MAC expert(s) --- What's a Performa? In-Reply-To: <3BFE1074.D86E48FE@verizon.net> Message-ID: <550.727T900T11104181optimus@canit.se> Ian Koller skrev: >Iggy Drougge wrote: >> Hard drives are expensive and messy. >What's a 40 Gb hard drive cost in Sweden? Now you forced me to actually look that up. The prices never cease to amaze me. Now you can get a 40 GB Maxtor 7200rpm DMA100/8ms IDE drive at only 1299 kr. But those prices aside, you could get a lot of DDS cassettes at that price, and they are much less messy. -- En ligne avec Thor 2.6a. Oj! Den buggen har ju funnits s? l?nge jag kan minnas! Jag saknar den redan. Thomas Sundqvist / Co-Gasfisk #1006 p? Fabbes BBS From optimus at canit.se Fri Nov 23 12:04:31 2001 From: optimus at canit.se (Iggy Drougge) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:23:46 2005 Subject: OT: paging MAC expert(s) --- What's a Performa? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <1245.727T1550T11445563optimus@canit.se> Jeff Hellige skrev: >>The Commodore A590 controller (released in 1987?) also had an XT-IDE >>controller on its PCB in addition to the SCSI interface. It was a cheap way >>for C= to add small drives into the A590 case. > I didn't know that...I had always thought that the older >Amiga hard disk interfaces were either ST506 or SCSI. Interestingly, the A590 has an XT-IDE controller, the A2090 an ST506. Both have SCSI, of course. I had the questionable pleasure of seeing an Amiga 2000 with *two* ST506 hard drives last week when were given one by a former member. One was connected to the 2090, one to an 8-bit ISA controller for the A2088 bridgeboard. Hideous sight, not to mention the sound. =/ -- En ligne avec Thor 2.6a. Within several messages, hsc refers to the user as a ``jerk''. This happens if you are using features which are only supported by some special browsers. Some people say they are forced by their employer to use those features, and therefor feel insulted by hsc. As a solution, you can store the amount of your monthly payment in this variable: setenv HSCSALARY 1000 After this, hsc will stop calling you a ``jerk''. Instead, it will now use the term ``prostitute''. -- README for the HTML preprocessor "hsc" From jhellige at earthlink.net Fri Nov 23 14:15:26 2001 From: jhellige at earthlink.net (Jeff Hellige) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:23:47 2005 Subject: OT: paging MAC expert(s) --- What's a Performa? In-Reply-To: <1245.727T1550T11445563optimus@canit.se> References: <1245.727T1550T11445563optimus@canit.se> Message-ID: >Interestingly, the A590 has an XT-IDE controller, the A2090 an ST506. Both >have SCSI, of course. I had the questionable pleasure of seeing an Amiga 2000 >with *two* ST506 hard drives last week when were given one by a former member. >One was connected to the 2090, one to an 8-bit ISA controller for the A2088 >bridgeboard. Hideous sight, not to mention the sound. =/ I definately remember the A2000's with ST506 drives installed. During my first exposure to Amiga's it was a big deal if you had a controller that would actually autoboot vice needing a floppy to boot the machine at least part way. The Tecmar hard disk assembly on my A1000 is like that...the drivers for the controller are loaded off of the Workbench floppy. Now that I actually have two of the drives for my Tecmar controller though I should open one up and see what's inside of it. In the '87-88 timeframe it was the cost of the controller/drive combos for the Amiga that initially made me shy away from them. Jeff -- Home of the TRS-80 Model 2000 FAQ File http://www.cchaven.com http://www.geocities.com/siliconvalley/lakes/6757 From mythtech at Mac.com Fri Nov 23 12:09:09 2001 From: mythtech at Mac.com (Chris) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:23:47 2005 Subject: OT: paging MAC expert(s) --- What's a Performa? Message-ID: <200111231809.MAA79983@opal.tseinc.com> >Anybody know what a 40 Gb is at CompUSA here in the US? I think I saw in last weeks flyer they were going for about $80 for an IDE internal 7200rpm Maxtor. -chris From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Nov 23 15:48:32 2001 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:23:47 2005 Subject: 1771 floppy controller questions In-Reply-To: <001701c173d1$94ae6220$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> from "Richard Erlacher" at Nov 22, 1 08:47:31 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1383 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20011123/4e4c9a03/attachment.ksh From mtapley at swri.edu Fri Nov 23 09:42:21 2001 From: mtapley at swri.edu (Mark Tapley) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:23:47 2005 Subject: Trinary circuits In-Reply-To: <200111220855.CAA61885@opal.tseinc.com> Message-ID: Iggy et al., > This might interest some of out there: http://www.trinary.cc/ Yep. Interestingly there is an alternate formulation known as the *Balanced* trinary number system. (One of the folks around here wants to label it "BaTeNuS".) The idea is that the digits, rather than being 0, 1, 2 for each place value, are (-1), 0, 1, meaning subtract, don't do either, or add the place value in which that digit appears. For convenience I'll write (-1) as "n" below, though in (LaPlace's?) original work it was written as 1 with an overstrike. Decimal Batenus Explanation ... -9 n00 (-1) * 3^2 + 0 + 0 -8 n01 (-1) * 3^2 + 0 + 1 * 3^0 -7 n1n (-1) * 3^2 + 1 * 3^1 + (-1) * 3^0 -6 n10 (-1) * 3^2 + 1 * 3^1 + 0 -5 n11 (-1) * 3^2 + 1 * 3^1 + 1 * 3^0 -4 nn 0 + (-1) * 3^1 + (-1) * 3^0 -3 n0 0 + (-1) * 3^1 + 0 -2 n1 0 + (-1) * 3^1 + 1 * 3^0 -1 n 0 + 0 + (-1) * 3^0 0 0 0 + 0 + 0 1 1 0 + 0 + 1 * 3^0 2 1n 0 + 1 * 3^1 + (-1) * 3^0 3 10 0 + 1 * 3^1 + 0 4 11 0 + 1 * 3^1 + 1 * 3^0 5 1nn 1 * 3^2 + (-1) * 3^1 + (-1) * 3^0 6 1n0 1 * 3^2 + (-1) * 3^1 + 0 7 1n1 1 * 3^2 + (-1) * 3^1 + 1 * 3^0 ... you get the idea. Notice that negative numbers are built in - no need for an additional (-) symbol leading a number. Also notice that to negate a number, you just negate each digit. Fractions, addition tables, etc. are left as an exercise for the reader. This system is great if you have a balance beam and want a minimum number of known weights. To get an (n), you put a known weight on the same side as the object being weighed, while to get a (1), put that weight on the opposite side. With 4 weights, (27, 9, 3, 1) you can generate every integer weight from -40 to 40 - try that with a decimal set of weights (or binary, for that matter). The problem I see with putting either Batenus or trinary in silicon (or gallium arsenide, etc.) is that all the electric technologies I know of are fundamentally binary. On/off, charge stored vs. not stored, current flowing vs. not flowing, etc. You need two binary bits (4 states) to hold a trinary digit (3 states), so there's a 33% loss. Even ignoring this, you only get a 50% increase in information capability and processing speed at best. Would you rather rebuild your computers from the gate level up, including all of the software, or just wait 6 months for the semiconductor industry to get you the 50% speedup in binary? However, I do notice that SQUID circuits, and some other superconducting phenomena, might well be made to work in a trinary fashion (no current, current circulating left, current circulating right). If so, that might make Batenus or trinary pretty interesting again. Am I Off-topic if I'm 10 years into the future? :-) - Mark Linc, >Calculating in binary code is as easy as 01,10,11. Calculating in Batenus is as easy as 1,1n,10 From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Fri Nov 23 11:25:08 2001 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (Ben Franchuk) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:23:47 2005 Subject: Trinary circuits References: Message-ID: <3BFE8674.5A0CD9D6@jetnet.ab.ca> Mark Tapley wrote: > >Calculating in binary code is as easy as 01,10,11. > Calculating in Batenus is as easy as 1,1n,10 I like the idea 0 is 0 volts n is + -n is -. um... Calculating in Batenus is as easy as ... , ..+ , ..- , .+. From cisin at xenosoft.com Fri Nov 23 11:00:58 2001 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin (XenoSoft)) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:23:47 2005 Subject: Preserving old literature (was: Re: Tandy 10 Info Wanted) In-Reply-To: <3BFDE977.ADA8C55C@verizon.net> Message-ID: > Douglas Quebbeman wrote: > > We don't have them around here, tho... libraries > > around here are lucky to be able to keep the > > electricity on... > Tothwolf wrote: > > and are very much in need of an overhaul and > > cleaning (very poor copies). On Fri, 23 Nov 2001, Ian Koller wrote: > I swear, from some of the things you folks say, it > seems like most of you live in some third world country. Yes. California. From dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com Fri Nov 23 12:44:37 2001 From: dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com (Douglas Quebbeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:23:47 2005 Subject: Preserving old literature (was: Re: Tandy 10 Info Wanted) Message-ID: <7A9BACCEF0171D4FB77019F5104CDD3722596B@jeffserver.tegjeff.com> > Douglas Quebbeman wrote: > > We don't have them around here, tho... libraries > > around here are lucky to be able to keep the > > electricity on... > > Tothwolf wrote: > > and are very much in need of an overhaul and > > cleaning (very poor copies). > > I swear, from some of the things you folks say, it > seems like most of you live in some third world country. Oh, God, I feel another song coming on... But instead, yeah, Louisville KY metro area. Third World. Ten years ago, in a Wendy's, this guy comes in looking enough like Li'l Abner (plaid shirt, bluejeans w/rolled- up cuffs and bare feet) that I had to check to make sure that a Dogpatch musical wasn't playing... it wasn't, this guy had never heard that you can't enter a restaurant with bare feet. Most people with tech skills leave for better opportunities on the left coast. In the music scene, "The Louisville Sound" is the sound of a 727 taking our musicians to L.A. A major local issue is the destruction of roads by steel- wheeled tractors. They're not just for Amish, you know. And the cable company will be the only provider of "the last mile" to my subdivision for at least the next 5 years. I'm 19473 feet away from my CO, so unless a new technology gets deployed, I'll be on 56k dialup for the forseeable future. That ain't smoke signals or talking drums, but it ain't really high tech anymore, either. Regards, -dq From dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com Fri Nov 23 12:48:58 2001 From: dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com (Douglas Quebbeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:23:47 2005 Subject: Preserving old literature (was: Re: Tandy 10 Info Wanted) Message-ID: <7A9BACCEF0171D4FB77019F5104CDD3722596D@jeffserver.tegjeff.com> > > Douglas Quebbeman wrote: > > > We don't have them around here, tho... libraries > > > around here are lucky to be able to keep the > > > electricity on... > > > > Tothwolf wrote: > > > and are very much in need of an overhaul and > > > cleaning (very poor copies). > > > > > > I swear, from some of the things you folks say, it > > seems like most of you live in some third world country. > > Nah, just cities/states where the local government would rather spend > money on fancy buildings and $1000 toilet seats instead of stuff the > community can actually make use of. Yeah; same here in Louisville, but instead, they're thinking about building a stadium downtown in order to attract an NBA team. The Charlotte Hornets were the latest team they courted... -dq From optimus at canit.se Fri Nov 23 12:05:52 2001 From: optimus at canit.se (Iggy Drougge) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:23:47 2005 Subject: 50th anniversary of the routine business use of computers In-Reply-To: <3BFC5BDE.C46CCD40@rain.org> Message-ID: <355.727T2600T11456125optimus@canit.se> Marvin Johnston skrev: >I was fortunate enough to get some original LEO stationary and punch >cards a few years ago. Just to see what would happen, I put one of each >on ebay and it appears not many people had even heard of LEO computers! Are they related to the PC maker of the same name (LEO Jet was one of their models)? -- En ligne avec Thor 2.6a. From hansp at aconit.org Fri Nov 23 13:59:58 2001 From: hansp at aconit.org (Hans B Pufal) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:23:47 2005 Subject: 50th anniversary of the routine business use of computers References: <355.727T2600T11456125optimus@canit.se> Message-ID: <3BFEAABE.1030002@aconit.org> Iggy Drougge wrote: >>I was fortunate enough to get some original LEO stationary and punch >>cards a few years ago. Just to see what would happen, I put one of each >>on ebay and it appears not many people had even heard of LEO computers! > Are they related to the PC maker of the same name (LEO Jet was one of their > models)? Nope, LEO vanished long before the PC was even a gleam in the eye of its designer. It was merged into Enlish Electric Leo Computers in 1963 with Lyons holding 50% of the new company. In 1964 Lyons sold its shares to English Electric. Eventually, in 1968, the company was merged with other enlish computer companies to form ICL. -- hbp From marvin at rain.org Fri Nov 23 15:52:51 2001 From: marvin at rain.org (Marvin Johnston) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:23:47 2005 Subject: 50th anniversary of the routine business use of computers References: <355.727T2600T11456125optimus@canit.se> Message-ID: <3BFEC533.86A9D004@rain.org> Iggy Drougge wrote: > > Marvin Johnston skrev: > > >I was fortunate enough to get some original LEO stationary and punch > >cards a few years ago. Just to see what would happen, I put one of each > >on ebay and it appears not many people had even heard of LEO computers! > > Are they related to the PC maker of the same name (LEO Jet was one of their > models)? I really can't answer that as I don't know what happened to LEO computers. My guess is that this stuff dates back to the early 1950's judging by the names on the stationary, but I don't know for sure. From dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com Fri Nov 23 12:47:13 2001 From: dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com (Douglas Quebbeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:23:47 2005 Subject: Mac SE Sigma Video Card Message-ID: <7A9BACCEF0171D4FB77019F5104CDD3722596C@jeffserver.tegjeff.com> > Portrait displays are a technology which is sadly extinct nowadays. > Nevertheless, the old PARC machines used such displays, even at a similar > resolution to Apple's. They occupy less space on the table and are ideal for > wordprocessing. I'd really very much like to have an Apple Portrait Display (I think it was called the Full-Page Display). Very nice, I used on on a IIsi, had Xerox Smalltalk-80 loaded on it, used it just like a little Alto. -dq From mranalog at home.com Fri Nov 23 13:14:28 2001 From: mranalog at home.com (Doug Coward) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:23:47 2005 Subject: Preserving old literature Message-ID: <3BFEA014.36F7C476@home.com> Matt London wrote: > I've found that hanging one edge of the magazine over the side of the > scanner works - you have to put the scanner on something thin and tall, so > the whole side of the magazine droops down - the only problem then is the > width of the plastic edges of the scanner surface/sides of scanner I once disassembled my scanner to investigate the possibility of removing the entire "plastic edges of the scanner" all the way to the edge of the scan area.(Hoping to be able to scan old books only open to a 90 degree angle.) It looked like a good idea because the outside track is inside the scan area. Unfortunately after I got the scanner apart, I discovered that the xenon(or whatever) tube not only does not light all the way to it's end, but it also has an electrode at the end. It just sticks out too far and has to extend past the edge of the scan area in order to illuminate the whole area. Oh well. On a similar note: I just found this - "Building a megapixel digital camera from a flatbed scanner" http://www.sentex.net/~mwandel/tech/scanner.html Regards, --Doug ========================================= Doug Coward @ home in Poulsbo, WA Analog Computer Online Museum and History Center http://www.best.com/~dcoward/analog ========================================= From lemay at cs.umn.edu Fri Nov 23 14:55:06 2001 From: lemay at cs.umn.edu (Lawrence LeMay) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:23:47 2005 Subject: Preserving old literature In-Reply-To: <3BFEA014.36F7C476@home.com> Message-ID: <200111232055.OAA08634@caesar.cs.umn.edu> > > Matt London wrote: > > I've found that hanging one edge of the magazine over the side of the > > scanner works - you have to put the scanner on something thin and tall, so > > the whole side of the magazine droops down - the only problem then is the > > width of the plastic edges of the scanner surface/sides of scanner > > I once disassembled my scanner to investigate the > possibility of removing the entire "plastic edges > of the scanner" all the way to the edge of the > scan area.(Hoping to be able to scan old books > only open to a 90 degree angle.) > It looked like a good idea because the outside > track is inside the scan area. Unfortunately > after I got the scanner apart, I discovered that > the xenon(or whatever) tube not only does not light > all the way to it's end, but it also has an > electrode at the end. It just sticks out too far > and has to extend past the edge of the scan area > in order to illuminate the whole area. Check out www.bookscanner.com if you havent already. They modify a scanner in the method similar to what you describe. -Lawrence LeMay From cmurillo at manizales.autonoma.edu.co Fri Nov 23 13:44:24 2001 From: cmurillo at manizales.autonoma.edu.co (Carlos Murillo) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:23:47 2005 Subject: Continuing tale of the Powerserver 320H Message-ID: <3BFEA718.50452F40@manizales.autonoma.edu.co> A kind soul sent me the AIX dianostics disk set to try to break into the powerserver 320h, and I am having mixed results. With the switch in service mode, I was able to make the machine boot off the floppies; eventually it reaches a menu: AIX 3.2 INSTALLATION AND MAINTENANCE Select the number of the task that you want to perform >>>> 1 Install AIX 2 Install a system that was created with the SMIT "Backup the System" function or the "mksysb" command 3 Install this system for use with a "/usr" server. 4 Install a limited function maintenance shell. Type the number of your selection, then press "Enter": 4 Type 'exit' to return to the main menu. Use the getrootfs command to access file systems that reside on the root volume group. #ls ls: not found #vi vi: not found #cat /etc/mnttab #getrootfs usage: /usr/sbin/getrootfs [-f] diskname -f disregard status of hd5 Available disks: location: hdisk0 00-01-00-00 #getrootfs -f hdisk0 Importing Volume Group... rootvg /dev/rhd4 (/): ** Unmounted cleanly - Check supressed /dev/rhd2 (/usr): ** Unmounted cleanly - Check supressed /usr/sbin/getrootfs: mount: not found checking all mounts and the existance of df /usr/sbin/getrootfs: mount: not found /usr is not mounted #ls ls: not found #mount mount: not found #umount Usage: umount [-sf] {-a|-n Node|-t Type|all|allr|Device|File|directory|File System} # Further investigation revealed that if I "umount /usr", then there is some mount executable in the ram disk. Ok, so I make /usr1, copy all the stuff in the ramdisk /usr to /usr1 (also in ramdisk) and run getrootfs again. Still no luck mounting /usr . So, using the tools that I copied into /usr1 I mount /dev/hd4 in /mymnt/hd4 and /dev/hd2 in /mymnt/hd2 ; further investigation reveals that there indeed exist directories /mymnt/hd2/bin, /mymnt/hd2/lib, /mymnt/hd4/etc and so on; I seem to have mounted / and /usr from the HD correctly. I still cannot use any executables in the HD, though: #/mymnt/hd2/bin/ls killed typing # cat /mymnt/hd4/etc/passwd reveals that AIX seems to have shadow passwords but I can't find any of the usual files (master* etc) . # passwd cannot execute #/mymnt/hd4/bin/passwd killed So, does anybody know what's going on? carlos. -- Carlos E. Murillo-Sanchez email: carlos_murillo@spammers.not.ieee.org Universidad Autonoma de Manizales, Manizales, Colombia ---- "I'm not going to get involved in peer-review mumbo-jumbo." -- John Doolittle, House Republican, confronted by a reporter with the peer-review nature of the environmental studies he was dismissing. "Peer review is in fact the great mumbo-jumbo detector." -- Carl Sagan. From pete at dunnington.u-net.com Fri Nov 23 15:28:55 2001 From: pete at dunnington.u-net.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:23:47 2005 Subject: Continuing tale of the Powerserver 320H In-Reply-To: Carlos Murillo "Continuing tale of the Powerserver 320H" (Nov 23, 14:44) References: <3BFEA718.50452F40@manizales.autonoma.edu.co> Message-ID: <10111232128.ZM24227@mindy.dunnington.u-net.com> On Nov 23, 14:44, Carlos Murillo wrote: > #ls > ls: not found > #vi > vi: not found I'm no AIX expert, and I've not used it in years. I think 3.2 uses shared libraries, and vi probably needs something in a library that's not mounted (or not in the right place) when running the limited maintenance shell. I'm surprised ls doesn't work, though. The shell should support ls, dd, backup, restore, chown, mkfs, mknod, mount, and things like that. And of course, our editor of choice: ed. > #cat /etc/mnttab Have a look in /etc/filesystems and see what it thinks it should mount for "mount all". I think AIX actually deletes /etc/mnttab as part of the normal startup, and does a "touch /etc/mnttab" to leave an empty file. > #getrootfs > usage: /usr/sbin/getrootfs [-f] diskname > -f disregard status of hd5 > Available disks: location: > hdisk0 00-01-00-00 > > #getrootfs -f hdisk0 > Importing Volume Group... > rootvg > /dev/rhd4 (/): ** Unmounted cleanly - Check supressed > /dev/rhd2 (/usr): ** Unmounted cleanly - Check supressed > /usr/sbin/getrootfs: mount: not found > checking all mounts and the existance of df > /usr/sbin/getrootfs: mount: not found > /usr is not mounted > > #ls > ls: not found > #mount > mount: not found > #umount > Usage: umount [-sf] {-a|-n Node|-t Type|all|allr|Device|File|directory|File > System} > # > > Further investigation revealed that if I "umount /usr", then there is > some mount executable in the ram disk. Ok, so I make /usr1, copy all > the stuff in the ramdisk /usr to /usr1 (also in ramdisk) and run > getrootfs again. Still no luck mounting /usr . So, using the tools > that I copied into /usr1 I mount /dev/hd4 in /mymnt/hd4 and /dev/hd2 > in /mymnt/hd2 ; further investigation reveals that there indeed exist > directories /mymnt/hd2/bin, /mymnt/hd2/lib, /mymnt/hd4/etc and so > on; I seem to have mounted / and /usr from the HD correctly. > I still cannot use any executables in the HD, though: > > #/mymnt/hd2/bin/ls > killed > > typing > # cat /mymnt/hd4/etc/passwd > > reveals that AIX seems to have shadow passwords but I can't find any > of the usual files (master* etc) . Possibly in /etc/security/passwd, /etc/security/group, and so on. Don't believe AIX is UNIX. It's not. > # passwd > cannot execute Probably the executable isn't in your PATH. If you have the filesystems mounted (BTW, why "mymnt" not just "mnt"? That's what mnt is for) you can add the relevant directories PATH=/mymnt/hd2/bin:$PATH but it might be better (if you just have two partitions on the hard drive) to mount hd2 directly on /mnt, and then mount hd4 on /mnt/usr. At least then things will be in the correct places relative to each other. There isn't a directory called "/root", is there? You could try the "users" command, though I expect it only works on a normal system (ie not from the maintenacne shell, which is sort of a mini system, like the miniroot or standalone shell in IRIX and Solaris). If you can edit /etc/passwd with ed, you can probably remove the password field from root's entry, leaving a null field (no password). -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager University of York From Oliver.Bruckauf at gmx.de Fri Nov 23 14:46:00 2001 From: Oliver.Bruckauf at gmx.de (Oliver.Bruckauf@gmx.de) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:23:47 2005 Subject: Happy Thanksgiving, y'all...new find in... Message-ID: <16543.1006548360@www56.gmx.net> Hi! this is exactly one of the things I alsways wanted to have. Is there somebody around who would want to get rid of one? (daisy-wheel printer that is) Oliver. > my basement of all places! > An Olympia RO printer, that is bout serial and parallel and, uses a > diasy-wheel instead of being dot matrix. Wow, I forgot that I had the > thing! > Eric From dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com Fri Nov 23 12:33:35 2001 From: dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com (Douglas Quebbeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:23:47 2005 Subject: NeXTs (was Re: Radio Shack abandons components) Message-ID: <7A9BACCEF0171D4FB77019F5104CDD3722596A@jeffserver.tegjeff.com> > >Now that's a machine that I really want. I have a lead on a couple of > >Lisa 2's if the guy ever gets them out of his storage building. > > If you get an extra, send one my way! Apparantly, there are parts of the US where you can't swing a dead cat without hitting a Lisa that someone wants to get rid of... but the three of us don't live there! -dq From jhellige at earthlink.net Fri Nov 23 12:53:03 2001 From: jhellige at earthlink.net (Jeff Hellige) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:23:47 2005 Subject: NeXTs (was Re: Radio Shack abandons components) In-Reply-To: <7A9BACCEF0171D4FB77019F5104CDD3722596A@jeffserver.tegjeff.com> References: <7A9BACCEF0171D4FB77019F5104CDD3722596A@jeffserver.tegjeff.com> Message-ID: >Apparantly, there are parts of the US where you can't swing >a dead cat without hitting a Lisa that someone wants to get >rid of... but the three of us don't live there! Well maybe if the list knew where this place was, we could go liberate some of these Lisa's? I know around here they aren't plentiful like that. It took me quite a while to come up with one and it came from California. Jeff -- Home of the TRS-80 Model 2000 FAQ File http://www.cchaven.com http://www.geocities.com/siliconvalley/lakes/6757 From foo at siconic.com Fri Nov 23 13:19:49 2001 From: foo at siconic.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:23:47 2005 Subject: NeXTs (was Re: Radio Shack abandons components) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Fri, 23 Nov 2001, Jeff Hellige wrote: > >Apparantly, there are parts of the US where you can't swing > >a dead cat without hitting a Lisa that someone wants to get > >rid of... but the three of us don't live there! > > Well maybe if the list knew where this place was, we could go > liberate some of these Lisa's? I know around here they aren't > plentiful like that. It took me quite a while to come up with one > and it came from California. Yeah, we wipe our asses with them here ;) Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org From wmsmith at earthlink.net Fri Nov 23 16:43:21 2001 From: wmsmith at earthlink.net (Wayne M. Smith) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:23:47 2005 Subject: NeXTs (was Re: Radio Shack abandons components) References: Message-ID: <03b101c17470$415da5a0$c599b2d1@Smith.earthlink.net> > > >Apparantly, there are parts of the US where you can't swing > > >a dead cat without hitting a Lisa that someone wants to get > > >rid of... but the three of us don't live there! > > > > Well maybe if the list knew where this place was, we could go > > liberate some of these Lisa's? I know around here they aren't > > plentiful like that. It took me quite a while to come up with one > > and it came from California. > > Yeah, we wipe our asses with them here ;) > So true. I got mine from a pile of picked over office equipment that was going to the scrapper. No manuals though -- apparently Sellam's ass got there first. From dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com Fri Nov 23 14:11:13 2001 From: dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com (Douglas Quebbeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:23:47 2005 Subject: NeXTs (was Re: Radio Shack abandons components) Message-ID: <7A9BACCEF0171D4FB77019F5104CDD37225970@jeffserver.tegjeff.com> > On Fri, 23 Nov 2001, Jeff Hellige wrote: > > > >Apparantly, there are parts of the US where you can't swing > > >a dead cat without hitting a Lisa that someone wants to get > > >rid of... but the three of us don't live there! > > > > Well maybe if the list knew where this place was, we could go > > liberate some of these Lisa's? I know around here they aren't > > plentiful like that. It took me quite a while to come up with one > > and it came from California. > > Yeah, we wipe our asses with them here ;) Damned good thing, too, y'all's asses be in severe need of major wiping... -dq From mythtech at Mac.com Fri Nov 23 15:31:56 2001 From: mythtech at Mac.com (Chris) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:23:47 2005 Subject: NeXTs (was Re: Radio Shack abandons components) Message-ID: <200111232132.PAA82359@opal.tseinc.com> >Apparantly, there are parts of the US where you can't swing >a dead cat without hitting a Lisa that someone wants to get >rid of... but the three of us don't live there! What parts of the US? Sounds like an excuse for a road trip! -chris From jrkeys at concentric.net Fri Nov 23 17:36:36 2001 From: jrkeys at concentric.net (John R. Keys Jr.) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:23:47 2005 Subject: NeXTs (was Re: Radio Shack abandons components) References: <7A9BACCEF0171D4FB77019F5104CDD3722596A@jeffserver.tegjeff.com> Message-ID: <00a101c17477$b2c575e0$7b701fd1@default> For a short while they were all over the place here in the Twin Cities (MN), people were giving them away. They were less than $10 at the thrift's. Houston was a good source for awhile also. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jeff Hellige" To: Sent: Friday, November 23, 2001 12:53 PM Subject: RE: NeXTs (was Re: Radio Shack abandons components) > >Apparantly, there are parts of the US where you can't swing > >a dead cat without hitting a Lisa that someone wants to get > >rid of... but the three of us don't live there! > > Well maybe if the list knew where this place was, we could go > liberate some of these Lisa's? I know around here they aren't > plentiful like that. It took me quite a while to come up with one > and it came from California. > > Jeff > -- > Home of the TRS-80 Model 2000 FAQ File > http://www.cchaven.com > http://www.geocities.com/siliconvalley/lakes/6757 > > From gwynp at artware.qc.ca Fri Nov 23 17:09:01 2001 From: gwynp at artware.qc.ca (gwynp@artware.qc.ca) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:23:47 2005 Subject: Continuing tale of the Powerserver 320H In-Reply-To: <3BFEA718.50452F40@manizales.autonoma.edu.co> Message-ID: On 23-Nov-2001 Carlos Murillo wrote: >#ls > ls: not found A classic tip is to do `echo *` to get a directory listing if ls is broken or missing. Note that this assumes your shell does globing, which a reduced "emergency" shell might not. -Philip From celt at chisp.net Fri Nov 23 17:33:29 2001 From: celt at chisp.net (Michael Maginnis) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:23:47 2005 Subject: Fixing an eMate References: <200111222149.NAA11466@stockholm.ptloma.edu> Message-ID: <3BFEDCC9.8020406@chisp.net> Cameron Kaiser wrote: > Just checking if there's anyone out there who might have some connections for > repairing an Apple eMate 300 with a shattered screen. Anywhere to buy parts > or perhaps an intact (just dead) eMate I can grab the LCD from? > > This place seems to have an inventory of eMate parts, if you're willing to do the work yourself: http://www.icni.com/Apple%20Parts/emate.htm Mike http://tarnover.dyndns.org From donm at cts.com Fri Nov 23 17:58:10 2001 From: donm at cts.com (Don Maslin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:23:47 2005 Subject: Mac Restore CDs/Manuals In-Reply-To: <224.727T2350T5386375optimus@canit.se> Message-ID: On 23 Nov 2001, Iggy Drougge wrote: > Don Maslin skrev: > > >I have an LC with a display rather like that caused by a missing Video > >RAM 72-pin SIMM. > > 68-pin, IIRC. You may well be correct, as I did not count them nor try to substitute. - don From donm at cts.com Fri Nov 23 18:25:12 2001 From: donm at cts.com (Don Maslin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:23:47 2005 Subject: Preserving old literature In-Reply-To: <3BFEA014.36F7C476@home.com> Message-ID: On Fri, 23 Nov 2001, Doug Coward wrote: > > Matt London wrote: > > I've found that hanging one edge of the magazine over the side of the > > scanner works - you have to put the scanner on something thin and tall, so > > the whole side of the magazine droops down - the only problem then is the > > width of the plastic edges of the scanner surface/sides of scanner > > I once disassembled my scanner to investigate the > possibility of removing the entire "plastic edges > of the scanner" all the way to the edge of the > scan area.(Hoping to be able to scan old books > only open to a 90 degree angle.) > It looked like a good idea because the outside > track is inside the scan area. Unfortunately > after I got the scanner apart, I discovered that > the xenon(or whatever) tube not only does not light > all the way to it's end, but it also has an > electrode at the end. It just sticks out too far > and has to extend past the edge of the scan area > in order to illuminate the whole area. > Oh well. > > On a similar note: > I just found this - "Building a megapixel digital > camera from a flatbed scanner" > http://www.sentex.net/~mwandel/tech/scanner.html > > Regards, > --Doug > ========================================= There used to be a scanner - I have long since forgotten the name - that had a small `camera' installed on a curved boom above a flat base. A couple of lights also, of course. I'd imagine that such a unit would be capable of scanning magazine pages with out ruining the magazine. I also imagine that it was bog slow and low resolution! - don > Doug Coward > @ home in Poulsbo, WA > > Analog Computer Online Museum and History Center > http://www.best.com/~dcoward/analog > ========================================= > From jhellige at earthlink.net Fri Nov 23 18:46:29 2001 From: jhellige at earthlink.net (Jeff Hellige) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:23:47 2005 Subject: Preserving old literature In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: >There used to be a scanner - I have long since forgotten the name - that >had a small `camera' installed on a curved boom above a flat base. A >couple of lights also, of course. I'd imagine that such a unit would be >capable of scanning magazine pages with out ruining the magazine. I >also imagine that it was bog slow and low resolution! For the Amiga, the DigiView with the DigiDroid and copystand worked like this. The copystand is actually pretty nice though and could be used for other closeup photography work. Jeff -- Home of the TRS-80 Model 2000 FAQ File http://www.cchaven.com http://www.geocities.com/siliconvalley/lakes/6757 From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Nov 23 19:14:47 2001 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:23:47 2005 Subject: Preserving old literature In-Reply-To: from "Don Maslin" at Nov 23, 1 04:25:12 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1120 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20011124/62a8db61/attachment.ksh From jfoust at threedee.com Fri Nov 23 19:24:44 2001 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:23:47 2005 Subject: Preserving old literature In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <5.0.0.25.0.20011123192253.0235ab40@pc> At 07:46 PM 11/23/2001 -0500, you wrote: > For the Amiga, the DigiView with the DigiDroid and copystand worked like this. The copystand is actually pretty nice though and could be used for other closeup photography work. The DigiView was limited to the resolution of the B/W camera you chose, as well as its own limits of RS-170 video. These days, you'd be far better-off with a digital camera on that copy stand. - John From jhellige at earthlink.net Fri Nov 23 20:19:01 2001 From: jhellige at earthlink.net (Jeff Hellige) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:23:47 2005 Subject: Preserving old literature In-Reply-To: <5.0.0.25.0.20011123192253.0235ab40@pc> References: <5.0.0.25.0.20011123192253.0235ab40@pc> Message-ID: >The DigiView was limited to the resolution of the B/W camera >you chose, as well as its own limits of RS-170 video. These >days, you'd be far better-off with a digital camera on that >copy stand. I understand that, but at the time it was pretty impressive and I mentioned it due to the similarities of the setup with the copystand. It would do 4,096 colors in up to 704 x 480 (Dynamic Hi-Res at max overscan). I've got the full setup (Digi-View, Digi-Droid, Panasonic WV-1410 CCTV camera, Digi-Paint 3, and copy stand) plus a Sunrize color splitter. I've mostly used it with the color splitter, vice the camera. Now days, if I want a close-up of something, I generally put it on my flatbed scanner with a white cloth over it. HP Scanjet's are especially good at capturing depth of field like this, though mine is a rebadged Relisys Infinity Scorpion with it's internal RAM expanded. Jeff -- Home of the TRS-80 Model 2000 FAQ File http://www.cchaven.com http://www.geocities.com/siliconvalley/lakes/6757 From spectre at stockholm.ptloma.edu Fri Nov 23 19:19:13 2001 From: spectre at stockholm.ptloma.edu (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:23:47 2005 Subject: Fixing an eMate In-Reply-To: <3BFEDCC9.8020406@chisp.net> from Michael Maginnis at "Nov 23, 1 04:33:29 pm" Message-ID: <200111240119.RAA07574@stockholm.ptloma.edu> > This place seems to have an inventory of eMate parts, if you're willing > to do the work yourself: > http://www.icni.com/Apple%20Parts/emate.htm Dropped them a line and we'll see. Thanks! -- ----------------------------- personal page: http://www.armory.com/~spectre/ -- Cameron Kaiser, Point Loma Nazarene University * ckaiser@stockholm.ptloma.edu -- Not sun-worshippers: Son-worshippers! -- Uhura, Star Trek "Bread & Circuses" From spectre at stockholm.ptloma.edu Fri Nov 23 19:23:44 2001 From: spectre at stockholm.ptloma.edu (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:23:47 2005 Subject: NeXTs (was Re: Radio Shack abandons components) In-Reply-To: from Sellam Ismail at "Nov 23, 1 11:19:49 am" Message-ID: <200111240123.RAA08374@stockholm.ptloma.edu> > > Well maybe if the list knew where this place was, we could go > > liberate some of these Lisa's? I know around here they aren't > > plentiful like that. It took me quite a while to come up with one > > and it came from California. > > Yeah, we wipe our *sses with them here ;) I knew there was a reason my toilet kept backing up on all this mysterious beige plastic. :-P -- ----------------------------- personal page: http://www.armory.com/~spectre/ -- Cameron Kaiser, Point Loma Nazarene University * ckaiser@stockholm.ptloma.edu -- Quote me as saying I was misquoted. -- Groucho Marx ------------------------ From jhingber at ix.netcom.com Fri Nov 23 21:02:45 2001 From: jhingber at ix.netcom.com (Jeffrey H. Ingber) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:23:47 2005 Subject: NeXTs (was Re: Radio Shack abandons components) In-Reply-To: <200111240123.RAA08374@stockholm.ptloma.edu> References: <200111240123.RAA08374@stockholm.ptloma.edu> Message-ID: <1006570973.10317.7.camel@eleusis> On Fri, 2001-11-23 at 20:23, Cameron Kaiser wrote: > > > Well maybe if the list knew where this place was, we could go > > > liberate some of these Lisa's? I know around here they aren't > > > plentiful like that. It took me quite a while to come up with one > > > and it came from California. > > > > Yeah, we wipe our *sses with them here ;) > So that's why all the Lisas I've seen have turned yellow =) Jeffrey H. Ingber (jhingber _at_ ix.netcom.com) > I knew there was a reason my toilet kept backing up on all this mysterious > beige plastic. :-P > > -- > ----------------------------- personal page: http://www.armory.com/~spectre/ -- > Cameron Kaiser, Point Loma Nazarene University * ckaiser@stockholm.ptloma.edu > -- Quote me as saying I was misquoted. -- Groucho Marx ------------------------ From cbajpai at mediaone.net Fri Nov 23 19:59:19 2001 From: cbajpai at mediaone.net (Chandra Bajpai) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:23:47 2005 Subject: NeXTs (was Re: Radio Shack abandons components) In-Reply-To: <00a101c17477$b2c575e0$7b701fd1@default> Message-ID: <000001c1748b$a15409c0$b97ba8c0@ne.mediaone.net> How long ago was this? -Chandra -----Original Message----- From: owner-classiccmp@classiccmp.org [mailto:owner-classiccmp@classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of John R. Keys Jr. Sent: Friday, November 23, 2001 6:37 PM To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org Subject: Re: NeXTs (was Re: Radio Shack abandons components) For a short while they were all over the place here in the Twin Cities (MN), people were giving them away. They were less than $10 at the thrift's. Houston was a good source for awhile also. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jeff Hellige" To: Sent: Friday, November 23, 2001 12:53 PM Subject: RE: NeXTs (was Re: Radio Shack abandons components) > >Apparantly, there are parts of the US where you can't swing a dead > >cat without hitting a Lisa that someone wants to get rid of... but > >the three of us don't live there! > > Well maybe if the list knew where this place was, we could go liberate > some of these Lisa's? I know around here they aren't plentiful > like that. It took me quite a while to come up with one and it came > from California. > > Jeff > -- > Home of the TRS-80 Model 2000 FAQ File > http://www.cchaven.com > http://www.geocities.com/siliconvalley/lakes/6757 > > From jrkeys at concentric.net Fri Nov 23 21:43:40 2001 From: jrkeys at concentric.net (John R. Keys Jr.) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:23:47 2005 Subject: NeXTs (was Re: Radio Shack abandons components) References: <000001c1748b$a15409c0$b97ba8c0@ne.mediaone.net> Message-ID: <00eb01c1749a$3634cc60$7b701fd1@default> It was back about 6 months. Now everyone's a dealer in old computer items and it's getting harder to locate stuff here. People are also trashing their machines and not trying to recycle them. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Chandra Bajpai" To: Sent: Friday, November 23, 2001 7:59 PM Subject: RE: NeXTs (was Re: Radio Shack abandons components) > How long ago was this? > > -Chandra > > > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-classiccmp@classiccmp.org > [mailto:owner-classiccmp@classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of John R. Keys Jr. > Sent: Friday, November 23, 2001 6:37 PM > To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org > Subject: Re: NeXTs (was Re: Radio Shack abandons components) > > > For a short while they were all over the place here in the Twin Cities > (MN), people were giving them away. They were less than $10 at the > thrift's. Houston was a good source for awhile also. > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Jeff Hellige" > To: > Sent: Friday, November 23, 2001 12:53 PM > Subject: RE: NeXTs (was Re: Radio Shack abandons components) > > > > >Apparantly, there are parts of the US where you can't swing a dead > > >cat without hitting a Lisa that someone wants to get rid of... but > > >the three of us don't live there! > > > > Well maybe if the list knew where this place was, we could go liberate > > > some of these Lisa's? I know around here they aren't plentiful > > like that. It took me quite a while to come up with one and it came > > from California. > > > > Jeff > > -- > > Home of the TRS-80 Model 2000 FAQ File > > http://www.cchaven.com > > http://www.geocities.com/siliconvalley/lakes/6757 > > > > > > From jss at subatomix.com Sat Nov 24 00:08:24 2001 From: jss at subatomix.com (Jeffrey S. Sharp) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:23:47 2005 Subject: NeXTs (was Re: Radio Shack abandons components) In-Reply-To: <7A9BACCEF0171D4FB77019F5104CDD3722596A@jeffserver.tegjeff.com> Message-ID: <20011124000713.F29788-100000@lepton.subatomix.com> On Fri, 23 Nov 2001, Douglas Quebbeman wrote: > Apparantly, there are parts of the US where you can't swing a dead cat > without hitting a Lisa that someone wants to get rid of... Yeah, but probably because there are no readily available dead cats in those parts. Sorry, I could not resist. :-) -- Jeffrey S. Sharp jss@subatomix.com From mcguire at neurotica.com Fri Nov 23 19:41:26 2001 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:23:47 2005 Subject: New find : AT&T Unix PC7300 In-Reply-To: New find : AT&T Unix PC7300 (gwynp@artware.qc.ca) References: Message-ID: <15358.64198.862453.959307@phaduka.neurotica.com> On November 22, gwynp@artware.qc.ca wrote: > I was given this today. It has a tape backup (and controler board) and > the DOS-73 "emulation" board w/ 8087 upgrade (but no 8088... are those > NCR chips 8088 clones?). Included is full system software and docs. I > wonder if the 5.25 inch disks are still readable. What are the numbers on the NCR chips? > The computer is slightly dirty on the outside and dusty inside (on the > expansion boards). I think I'll wait untill i can dust out the insides a > bit before powering it. > > So now I have a Real UNIX(tm) computer! heh. Cool. The 7300 is a really neat machine. I sold them years ago at a computer store in NJ, and had one for a few years shortly thereafter. Lots of fun! SVR2 UNIX on a 10MB disk with 512KB of RAM! :-) -Dave -- Dave McGuire St. Petersburg, FL From thompson at mail.athenet.net Fri Nov 23 19:48:25 2001 From: thompson at mail.athenet.net (Paul Thompson) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:23:47 2005 Subject: Continuing tale of the Powerserver 320H In-Reply-To: <3BFEA718.50452F40@manizales.autonoma.edu.co> Message-ID: On Fri, 23 Nov 2001, Carlos Murillo wrote: > #getrootfs > usage: /usr/sbin/getrootfs [-f] diskname > -f disregard status of hd5 > Available disks: location: > hdisk0 00-01-00-00 > > #getrootfs -f hdisk0 > Importing Volume Group... > rootvg > /dev/rhd4 (/): ** Unmounted cleanly - Check supressed > /dev/rhd2 (/usr): ** Unmounted cleanly - Check supressed > /usr/sbin/getrootfs: mount: not found > checking all mounts and the existance of df > /usr/sbin/getrootfs: mount: not found On my 4.1.5 machine mount lives in /usr/sbin with a symlink in /etc. Don't know how true this is of the maintenance shell though it is worth a try to type the paths completely. What does AIX say when you type /etc/mount and /usr/sbin/mount before and after you do the getrootfs? > Further investigation revealed that if I "umount /usr", then there is > some mount executable in the ram disk. Ok, so I make /usr1, copy all > the stuff in the ramdisk /usr to /usr1 (also in ramdisk) and run > getrootfs again. Still no luck mounting /usr . Why not leave the filesystems alone that the maintenance shell creates and mounts and instead mkdir /bogus to mount your hd4 on. I maybe misreading what you're typing above but there is no urgent need to mount hd2 on usr and hd4 on / just because that's how they are when the system boots from the system disk. Mount them wherever from the maintenance shell and cd where you need to get to change things. /bogus/etc/security/passwd is where your real encrypted password text lives if you mount hd4 on /bogus. If you can get to an editor eventually you should be able to just remove the encrypted entry for root as someone else mentioned. -- From cmurillo at emtelsa.multi.net.co Fri Nov 23 21:43:41 2001 From: cmurillo at emtelsa.multi.net.co (Carlos Murillo) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:23:47 2005 Subject: Continuing tale of the Powerserver 320H In-Reply-To: <10111232128.ZM24227@mindy.dunnington.u-net.com> References: <3BFEA718.50452F40@manizales.autonoma.edu.co> Message-ID: <3.0.2.32.20011123224341.00ffc3a4@obregon.multi.net.co> Hi Peter; At 09:28 PM 11/23/01 GMT, Pete wrote: >On Nov 23, 14:44, Carlos Murillo wrote: >> #ls >> ls: not found >> #vi >> vi: not found >I'm no AIX expert, and I've not used it in years. I think 3.2 uses shared >libraries, and vi probably needs something in a library that's not mounted >(or not in the right place) when running the limited maintenance shell. > I'm surprised ls doesn't work, though. So far, the $program: not found error seems to indicate actual non-existence of the file... when the file exists but something else goes awry, either "killed" or "cannot execute" shows up.. The shell should support ls, dd, >backup, restore, chown, mkfs, mknod, mount, and things like that. And of >course, our editor of choice: ed. > >> #cat /etc/mnttab >Have a look in /etc/filesystems and see what it thinks it should mount for >"mount all". I think AIX actually deletes /etc/mnttab as part of the >normal startup, and does a "touch /etc/mnttab" to leave an empty file. see below >> #getrootfs >> usage: /usr/sbin/getrootfs [-f] diskname >> -f disregard status of hd5 >> Available disks: location: >> hdisk0 00-01-00-00 >> >> #getrootfs -f hdisk0 >> Importing Volume Group... >> rootvg >> /dev/rhd4 (/): ** Unmounted cleanly - Check supressed >> /dev/rhd2 (/usr): ** Unmounted cleanly - Check supressed >> /usr/sbin/getrootfs: mount: not found >> checking all mounts and the existance of df >> /usr/sbin/getrootfs: mount: not found >> /usr is not mounted It seems that the original / and /usr were located at /dev/hd4 and /dev/hd2, since I was able to mount them later on... > >> # passwd >> cannot execute > >Probably the executable isn't in your PATH. No, apparently when the file isn't found the msg is ": not found" . I tried all sane locations for the passwd program. "cannot execute" means something else, perhaps a permissions or restricted shell issue. > If you have the filesystems >mounted (BTW, why "mymnt" not just "mnt"? That's what mnt is for) you can >add the relevant directories > >PATH=/mymnt/hd2/bin:$PATH I did something similar; I copied all stuff in the ram-based /usr to another ram-based /usr1 and added /usr1/bin, /usr1/sbin and so on to the path, the idea being that after I used getrootfs I would not lose the previously available tools (while getrootfs seemed to change the actual anchoring of / from the ram to the HD device, it failed to properly mount /usr; however, the earlier ram-based tree at /usr became unavailable after the execution of getrootfs, leaving out the "mount" program, even though the mounting of /dev/hd2 at /usr had failed) >but it might be better (if you just have two partitions on the hard drive) >to mount hd2 directly on /mnt, and then mount hd4 on /mnt/usr. At least >then things will be in the correct places relative to each other. There >isn't a directory called "/root", is there? Yes, I did not keep relative mounting closeness in my arrangement. I'll have to check about the existence of /root (I'm away from the machine now) >You could try the "users" command, though I expect it only works on a >normal system (ie not from the maintenacne shell, which is sort of a mini >system, like the miniroot or standalone shell in IRIX and Solaris). If you >can edit /etc/passwd with ed, you can probably remove the password field >from root's entry, leaving a null field (no password). No ed so far; >> typing >> # cat /mymnt/hd4/etc/passwd > >> reveals that AIX seems to have shadow passwords but I can't find any >> of the usual files (master* etc) . >Possibly in /etc/security/passwd, /etc/security/group, and so on. Don't >believe AIX is UNIX. It's not. Indeed. /mymnt/hd4/etc/security/passwd and opasswd exist, but they are in a totally unknown format--anything like unix. Coud I replace a known encrypted (that is, under another unix variant) password in the corresponding token? carlos. -------------------------------------------------------------- Carlos E. Murillo-Sanchez carlos_murillo@nospammers.ieee.org From cmurillo at emtelsa.multi.net.co Fri Nov 23 21:45:03 2001 From: cmurillo at emtelsa.multi.net.co (Carlos Murillo) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:23:47 2005 Subject: Continuing tale of the Powerserver 320H In-Reply-To: References: <3BFEA718.50452F40@manizales.autonoma.edu.co> Message-ID: <3.0.2.32.20011123224503.01004fa4@obregon.multi.net.co> At 06:09 PM 11/23/01 -0500, Philip wrote: > >On 23-Nov-2001 Carlos Murillo wrote: >>#ls >> ls: not found > >A classic tip is to do `echo *` to get a directory listing if ls is broken >or missing. Note that this assumes your shell does globing, which a >reduced "emergency" shell might not. > >-Philip It worked, why, of course! why didn't I think about it? carlos. -------------------------------------------------------------- Carlos E. Murillo-Sanchez carlos_murillo@nospammers.ieee.org From thompson at mail.athenet.net Fri Nov 23 23:32:49 2001 From: thompson at mail.athenet.net (Paul Thompson) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:23:47 2005 Subject: Continuing tale of the Powerserver 320H In-Reply-To: <3.0.2.32.20011123224503.01004fa4@obregon.multi.net.co> Message-ID: On Fri, 23 Nov 2001, Carlos Murillo wrote: > > > At 06:09 PM 11/23/01 -0500, Philip wrote: > >A classic tip is to do `echo *` to get a directory listing if ls is broken > >or missing. Note that this assumes your shell does globing, which a > >reduced "emergency" shell might not. > > It worked, why, of course! why didn't I think about it? > That is a neat trick. Now when you mount your root disk and it moves root to there does this show a normal number of files in the various /bin /sbin /etc directories? I am wondering if perhaps someone tried another neat trick of an rm -rf * on your disk which stopped after rm was deleted or number of files rm could handle was exceeded due to environment limitations. -- From gwynp at artware.qc.ca Sat Nov 24 03:20:45 2001 From: gwynp at artware.qc.ca (gwynp@artware.qc.ca) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:23:47 2005 Subject: Continuing tale of the Powerserver 320H In-Reply-To: <3.0.2.32.20011123224503.01004fa4@obregon.multi.net.co> Message-ID: On 24-Nov-2001 Carlos Murillo wrote: > It worked, why, of course! why didn't I think about it? You will the next time you have this problem, grasshoper. -Philip From dmabry at mich.com Fri Nov 23 20:07:05 2001 From: dmabry at mich.com (Dave Mabry) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:23:47 2005 Subject: Intel C8080A chip brings $565 on EBAY References: <000c01c17077$dbd0adf0$0100a8c0@sys1> Message-ID: <3BFF00C9.A17A9BDD@mich.com> John, What would some of the white ceramic package with gold leads 1702 eproms be worth? I watched that one ebay auction for five finish, but the comments on the retracted bid makes me wonder. Thanks, and take care. Dave > John Galt wrote: > > Well, it was one of only two known rare purple Intel C8080A's > > I am always in the market to buy rare old Intel microprocessors and > support chips. > > If you have any old Intel 4004, 8008, 4040, or 8080 > microprocessors laying around, I want them. > > Also buying old EPROMS (C1702's, etc), RAM (C3101, C1101, C1103, etc), > clock chips, etc). > > Contact me at gmphillips@earthlink.net > > > -- Dave Mabry dmabry@mich.com Dossin Museum Underwater Research Team NACD #2093 From bpope at wordstock.com Fri Nov 23 21:29:22 2001 From: bpope at wordstock.com (Bryan Pope) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:23:47 2005 Subject: 70's Mattel Handheld Football game... Message-ID: <200111240329.WAA27211@wordstock.com> All, Someone was asking about this awhile ago. Target is now (re)selling the 1970s "Handheld Electronic Classic Football Game" for $12.99 At: http://www.target.com/common/catalog/product.jhtml?prodid=83988&navAction=jump&navCount=13 If you also go to http://tomheroes.com/retrotimes_51.htm#New%20(Old)%20Handhelds%20(Are%20Back) there is info about other handhelds being rereleased. Now speaking of handhelds, does anyone remember playing the handheld pinball game? I can't think of the name of it right now... Cheers, Bryan Pope From cmurillo at emtelsa.multi.net.co Fri Nov 23 21:54:06 2001 From: cmurillo at emtelsa.multi.net.co (Carlos Murillo) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:23:47 2005 Subject: Preserving old literature (was: Re: Tandy 10 Info Wanted) In-Reply-To: <7A9BACCEF0171D4FB77019F5104CDD3722596B@jeffserver.tegjeff. com> Message-ID: <3.0.2.32.20011123225406.010057ec@obregon.multi.net.co> At 01:44 PM 11/23/01 -0500, you wrote: >> I swear, from some of the things you folks say, it >> seems like most of you live in some third world country. > >Oh, God, I feel another song coming on... > >But instead, yeah, Louisville KY metro area. Third World. >Ten years ago, in a Wendy's, this guy comes in looking >enough like Li'l Abner (plaid shirt, bluejeans w/rolled- >up cuffs and bare feet) that I had to check to make sure >that a Dogpatch musical wasn't playing... it wasn't, this >guy had never heard that you can't enter a restaurant with >bare feet. >A major local issue is the destruction of roads by steel- >wheeled tractors. They're not just for Amish, you know. > >And the cable company will be the only provider of "the >last mile" to my subdivision for at least the next 5 years. >I'm 19473 feet away from my CO, so unless a new technology >gets deployed, I'll be on 56k dialup for the forseeable >future. That ain't smoke signals or talking drums, but it >ain't really high tech anymore, either. Hah. In Ithaca, upstate NY, there is a sudden change of connectivity as soon as you cross RT 13 and enter the township of Lansing. 70 meters is the difference between roadrunner cable access and rural (max 28kbps) phone lines. carlos. -------------------------------------------------------------- Carlos E. Murillo-Sanchez carlos_murillo@nospammers.ieee.org From wmsmith at earthlink.net Sat Nov 24 02:49:04 2001 From: wmsmith at earthlink.net (Wayne M. Smith) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:23:47 2005 Subject: HP Composite Video Interface Card References: <006701c0933b$7404d080$ece9b3d1@Smith.earthlink.net> <200102101755.f1AHt5467295@daemonweed.reanimators.org> Message-ID: <045101c174c4$df93c520$c599b2d1@Smith.earthlink.net> > "Wayne M. Smith" wrote: > > I am using an HP composite video card (98204A) in a > > 9000/200 series and am getting a very small multiple > > image on the screen. Is there something special about > > HP composite video or is this just a bad card? I've > > tried the card in both a 9000/200 and 9000/220 with the > > same result. Any ideas? > > "Frank McConnell" wrote > Just a wild guess, but if you have an HP 35731A monochrome monitor, > try it with that. That wants composite video but with a horizontal > frequency of 30KHz instead of the more usual 15KHz. HP used that on > several different systems. Frank, you were right! I recently picked up a 35731A with a batch of HP stuff, plugged it into the 98204A, and the video's perfect. Now that I can see the output, I was also able to confirm that, as expected, an HP Integral keyboard works with the series 200 HIL card. Now, if only I could find an OS. HPL or HP BASIC would be nice. -W From Lee.Davison at merlincommunications.com Sat Nov 24 03:09:32 2001 From: Lee.Davison at merlincommunications.com (Davison, Lee) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:23:48 2005 Subject: OT: paging MAC expert(s) --- What's a Performa? Message-ID: <707AA588EE28D311BCD50090276D7D0002146DE8@BUSH02> Interestingly, the A590 has an XT-IDE controller, ... So does the A2091. Lee. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- ---- This email is intended only for the above named addressee(s). The information contained in this email may contain information which is confidential. The views expressed in this email are personal to the sender and do not in any way reflect the views of the company. If you have received this email and you are not a named addressee please delete it from your system and contact Merlin Communications International IT Department on +44 20 7344 5888. _____________________________________________________________________ This message has been checked for all known viruses by Star Internet delivered through the MessageLabs Virus Scanning Service. For further information visit http://www.star.net.uk/stats.asp or alternatively call Star Internet for details on the Virus Scanning Service. From pete at dunnington.u-net.com Sat Nov 24 04:13:14 2001 From: pete at dunnington.u-net.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:23:48 2005 Subject: Continuing tale of the Powerserver 320H In-Reply-To: Carlos Murillo "Re: Continuing tale of the Powerserver 320H" (Nov 23, 22:43) References: <3BFEA718.50452F40@manizales.autonoma.edu.co> <3.0.2.32.20011123224341.00ffc3a4@obregon.multi.net.co> Message-ID: <10111241013.ZM24639@mindy.dunnington.u-net.com> On Nov 23, 22:43, Carlos Murillo wrote: > >> # passwd > >> cannot execute > > > >Probably the executable isn't in your PATH. > > No, apparently when the file isn't found the msg is ": not found" . > I tried all sane locations for the passwd program. "cannot execute" > means something else, perhaps a permissions or restricted shell issue. I meant that it may find the file /etc/passwd and realise it's not executable. To be honest, I wouldn't expect most things -- including passwd -- to work under a maintenance shell. > > If you have the filesystems > >mounted (BTW, why "mymnt" not just "mnt"? That's what mnt is for) you can > >add the relevant directories > > > >PATH=/mymnt/hd2/bin:$PATH > > I did something similar; I copied all stuff in the ram-based /usr > to another ram-based /usr1 and added /usr1/bin, /usr1/sbin and so > on to the path, the idea being that after I used getrootfs I would not > lose the previously available tools (while getrootfs seemed to change > the actual anchoring of / from the ram to the HD device, it failed to > properly mount /usr; however, the earlier ram-based tree at /usr became > unavailable after the execution of getrootfs, leaving out the "mount" program, > even though the mounting of /dev/hd2 at /usr had failed) > > >but it might be better (if you just have two partitions on the hard drive) > >to mount hd2 directly on /mnt, and then mount hd4 on /mnt/usr. At least > >then things will be in the correct places relative to each other. There > >isn't a directory called "/root", is there? > > Yes, I did not keep relative mounting closeness in my arrangement. > I'll have to check about the existence of /root (I'm away > from the machine now) If you *can* run things from the mounted filesystems, the relative positions of the bin, lib, etc directories may matter. But the contents may not work anyway; you're not running a full kernel, only a very limited stand-alone maintenance program. > >You could try the "users" command, though I expect it only works on a > >normal system (ie not from the maintenacne shell, which is sort of a mini > >system, like the miniroot or standalone shell in IRIX and Solaris). If you > >can edit /etc/passwd with ed, you can probably remove the password field > >from root's entry, leaving a null field (no password). > > No ed so far; Then it seems you'll have to use cat and echo, I suppose. Cat the file to see what's in it, then use echo to put modified versions of the lines you need into some other file. > /mymnt/hd4/etc/security/passwd and opasswd exist, but they > are in a totally unknown format--anything like unix. What does a line in each of those look like? Normally etc/security/passwd contains lines with username, encrypted password, lastupdate, restrictions (if this is null, it means "none"; alternatives are "nologin" and "nouse"), and a field describing audit classes used for accounting. /etc/security/passwd is roughly the equivalent of the /etc/shadow file used by other UNIXes, not the equivalent of /etc/passwd; opasswd is either an older version, or the original /etc/passwd before it was converted to use shadowing. It might be worth trying to rename them or move them somewhere else, then replace /etc/passwd (move the original somewhere else) with one containing a null field instead of the indicator (usually 'x' in UNIX but '!' in AIX) that tells AIX to look in /etc/security/passwd of the password data. So you end up with an /etc/passwd that has a line like: root::0:0::/: instead of root:!:0:0::/: > Could I replace a known encrypted (that is, under another unix > variant) password in the corresponding token? I can't remember if AIX of that vintage used the same algorithm for encrypting passwords. I think so. But I think it would be much easier just to null out the password field (in either /etc/passwd or better still in /etc/security/passwd). If you can then boot the system properly and log in as root with no password, then you can set one in the normal way. -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager University of York From dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com Sat Nov 24 10:21:22 2001 From: dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com (Douglas Quebbeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:23:48 2005 Subject: Intel C8080A chip brings $565 on EBAY Message-ID: <7A9BACCEF0171D4FB77019F5104CDD37225973@jeffserver.tegjeff.com> > John, > > What would some of the white ceramic package with gold leads 1702 eproms > be worth? I watched that one ebay auction for five finish, but the > comments on the retracted bid makes me wonder. I've got a PTC 2KRO with some white/gold 1702s in it... with some kind of monitor, haven't plugged the board into the SOL to see what they are... I was afraid they'd end up at an address that would keep the SOL from booting. I wonder if my Needham burner can read 1702s? -dq From edick at idcomm.com Sat Nov 24 11:13:29 2001 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:23:48 2005 Subject: Intel C8080A chip brings $565 on EBAY References: <7A9BACCEF0171D4FB77019F5104CDD37225973@jeffserver.tegjeff.com> Message-ID: <000901c1750b$567b5d60$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> I made one of my infamous "high-tech-tie-tacks" out of one of these white ceramic-with-gold-leads 1702's. It's quite an atractive piece of jewelry. These parts are still routinely available, though not every day, for a couple of bucks at local surplus outlets, so I'v enot been concerned about their scarcity. Nope, your Needham burner probably can't deal with the 1702. It was a difficult part to program, unlike what the Needham type burners (5-volt-supply-only, IIRC) normally handle. The 1702 required a -9-volt supply, IIRC, and not just the -5-volt supply that the later multi-voltage parts required. The 1702, IIRC required a significant negative voltage, (-49 volts or so) for programming and few programmers, other than the Data I/O Model 29 that I occasionally used at work, would do that. Consequently, they'd probably not have suppported the I'm not even sure the Needham programmer will do the 2708 and 3-voltage 2716's. Will they? National made an MM5203 that was also 256-bytes in size and was also difficult to program. It was an even more suitable part for jewelry, as it had a gold flash all over its upper surface. It was quite a striking piece of hardware with its large gold surface and extra thick quartz window glued to the top. Dick ----- Original Message ----- From: "Douglas Quebbeman" To: Sent: Saturday, November 24, 2001 9:21 AM Subject: RE: Intel C8080A chip brings $565 on EBAY > > John, > > > > What would some of the white ceramic package with gold leads 1702 eproms > > be worth? I watched that one ebay auction for five finish, but the > > comments on the retracted bid makes me wonder. > > I've got a PTC 2KRO with some white/gold 1702s in it... with some > kind of monitor, haven't plugged the board into the SOL to see > what they are... I was afraid they'd end up at an address that > would keep the SOL from booting. > > I wonder if my Needham burner can read 1702s? > > -dq > > > From dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com Sat Nov 24 10:23:52 2001 From: dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com (Douglas Quebbeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:23:48 2005 Subject: NeXTs (was Re: Radio Shack abandons components) Message-ID: <7A9BACCEF0171D4FB77019F5104CDD37225974@jeffserver.tegjeff.com> > On Fri, 23 Nov 2001, Douglas Quebbeman wrote: > > > Apparantly, there are parts of the US where you can't swing a dead cat > > without hitting a Lisa that someone wants to get rid of... > > Yeah, but probably because there are no readily available dead cats in > those parts. Ah, Fiesta Cats, I read about that in a Famous Comic Book Once Upon a Time... Anyone remeber Freewheelin' Franklin's motto? (no posting the quote, please.. way OT). -dq From vax at knm.yi.org Sat Nov 24 10:47:59 2001 From: vax at knm.yi.org (Matt London) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:23:48 2005 Subject: Anyone got a spare QBus VAX CPU (and/or DELQA)? Message-ID: Hi, I'm sat here in my room at home looking at a completely empty BA23 and thinking - I should get this up and running :&) I have another BA23 that's up and running with a MVII (KA630+8M board) and I was thinking another KA630 would make this BA23 into another operable machine :&) If someone in the UK has any spare Qbus bits laying around... :&) On a slightly more urgent point - I'm in need of a DELQA (or a DEQNA(?)) for my MVII - I can probably get away without a cab kit and manufacture something myself - I've got a spare ethernet transceier and a couple of 15pin D sockets (from old ISA IO cards, when they came with a game port :&) I'm happy to pay postage in the UK - might even stretch to a pickup if it's not too far from manchester :&) (oh - and I'm probably in london mid december sometime for a day) -- Matt --- Web Page: http://knm.yi.org/ http://pkl.net/~matt/ PGP Key fingerprint = 00BF 19FE D5F5 8EAD 2FD5 D102 260E 8BA7 EEE4 8D7F PGP Key http://knm.yi.org/matt-pgp.html From jhellige at earthlink.net Sat Nov 24 11:41:40 2001 From: jhellige at earthlink.net (Jeff Hellige) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:23:48 2005 Subject: Anyone got a spare QBus VAX CPU (and/or DELQA)? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: > I'm sat here in my room at home looking at a completely empty BA23 and >thinking - I should get this up and running :&) > I have another BA23 that's up and running with a MVII (KA630+8M >board) and I was thinking another KA630 would make this BA23 into another >operable machine :&) > If someone in the UK has any spare Qbus bits laying around... :&) Matt, I've got an extra KA630 if you don't get any replies from someone with one in the UK. I'm in the US though. Jeff -- Home of the TRS-80 Model 2000 FAQ File http://www.cchaven.com http://www.geocities.com/siliconvalley/lakes/6757 From cmurillo at emtelsa.multi.net.co Sat Nov 24 12:39:44 2001 From: cmurillo at emtelsa.multi.net.co (Carlos Murillo) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:23:48 2005 Subject: Continuing tale of the Powerserver 320H In-Reply-To: References: <3.0.2.32.20011123224503.01004fa4@obregon.multi.net.co> Message-ID: <3.0.2.32.20011124133944.00ffff34@obregon.multi.net.co> At 11:32 PM 11/23/01 -0600, Paul wrote: >That is a neat trick. Now when you mount your root disk and it moves root >to there does this show a normal number of files in the various /bin /sbin >/etc directories? > >I am wondering if perhaps someone tried another neat trick of an rm -rf * >on your disk which stopped after rm was deleted or number of files rm >could handle was exceeded due to environment limitations. No, I think that /dev/hd2 and /dev/hd4 still have all the original files. There are binaries for ls and others there, but when I try to run them I immediately get a succint "killed" message. I wonder if this "recovery" shell isn't meant to run executables on the HD. carlos. -------------------------------------------------------------- Carlos E. Murillo-Sanchez carlos_murillo@nospammers.ieee.org From jhellige at earthlink.net Fri Nov 23 00:04:55 2001 From: jhellige at earthlink.net (Jeff Hellige) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:23:48 2005 Subject: paging MAC expert(s) --- What's a Performa? In-Reply-To: <002101c17432$a7422000$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> Message-ID: <01Nov24.182819est.119101@gateway.mediacen.navy.mil> I still see 30GB drives on the shelf quite a bit. I saw one the other day marked at $120. I've also seen some good deals on 6GB UW SCSI drives at places like Smalldog Electronics. Jeff On 23-Nov-01, Richard Erlacher wrote: > Can you still get a drive that small? > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Ian Koller" > To: > Sent: Friday, November 23, 2001 2:01 AM > Subject: Re: OT: paging MAC expert(s) --- What's a Performa? >> >> Iggy Drougge wrote: >>> Hard drives are expensive and messy. >> >> What's a 40 Gb hard drive cost in Sweden? >> >> Anybody know what a 40 Gb is at CompUSA here in the US? -- ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- Amiga 3000, Cyberstorm MkII 060/50, GVP Spectrum, Xsurf ethernet, Amiga OS 3.9, 4GB Quantum Fireball, HD floppy, 36MB FastRAM http://www.cchaven.com From erd_6502 at yahoo.com Sat Nov 24 13:25:56 2001 From: erd_6502 at yahoo.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:23:48 2005 Subject: OT: paging MAC expert(s) --- What's a Performa? In-Reply-To: <707AA588EE28D311BCD50090276D7D0002146DE8@BUSH02> Message-ID: <20011124192556.9769.qmail@web20102.mail.yahoo.com> --- "Davison, Lee" wrote: > > Interestingly, the A590 has an XT-IDE controller, ... > > So does the A2091. As does the Commodore Colt. I got a drive for mine from a 20Mb Hard Card (of later manufacture). No doubt the connecting thread is that they had a room full of them and so they added the control port to the chip used for the A590/A2091 to use them up. I think some A590s shipped with XT-IDE drives, but I don't think they even populated the connector on the A2091 (but I did, to play with it). -ethan __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! GeoCities - quick and easy web site hosting, just $8.95/month. http://geocities.yahoo.com/ps/info1 From optimus at canit.se Sat Nov 24 13:27:55 2001 From: optimus at canit.se (Iggy Drougge) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:23:48 2005 Subject: OT: paging MAC expert(s) --- What's a Performa? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <1765.728T2750T12276795optimus@canit.se> Jeff Hellige skrev: >>Interestingly, the A590 has an XT-IDE controller, the A2090 an ST506. Both >>have SCSI, of course. I had the questionable pleasure of seeing an Amiga >>2000 with *two* ST506 hard drives last week when were given one by a former >>member. One was connected to the 2090, one to an 8-bit ISA controller for >>the A2088 bridgeboard. Hideous sight, not to mention the sound. =/ > I definately remember the A2000's with ST506 drives >installed. During my first exposure to Amiga's it was a big deal if >you had a controller that would actually autoboot vice needing a >floppy to boot the machine at least part way. The Tecmar hard disk >assembly on my A1000 is like that...the drivers for the controller >are loaded off of the Workbench floppy. Now that I actually have two >of the drives for my Tecmar controller though I should open one up >and see what's inside of it. In the '87-88 timeframe it was the >cost of the controller/drive combos for the Amiga that initially made >me shy away from them. The A2090 is a bit of a bother in that regard. I believe the oldest revisions wouldn't autoboot at all, whereas newer revisions would, at least after a ROM update. However, it didn't use Commodore's standard for autobooting drives (Is this what RDB does?) and AFAIK, it can't be manipulated with HDToolbox. The MFM drives need to have particular partition names, too, which also alter the order of SCSI partitions. I suppose it does what it's supposed to do if you just use it as a cheap way to get a SCSI card for connecting the occasional SyQuest or scanner, but it certainly wouldn't be my prime choice for a SCSI card. =/ -- En ligne avec Thor 2.6a. A bore is a man who deprives you of solitude without providing you with company. From optimus at canit.se Sat Nov 24 17:37:48 2001 From: optimus at canit.se (Iggy Drougge) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:23:48 2005 Subject: Preserving old literature (was: Re: Tandy 10 Info Wanted) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <366.729T2400T375969optimus@canit.se> XenoSoft skrev: >> I swear, from some of the things you folks say, it >> seems like most of you live in some third world country. >Yes. >California. Isn't that where the Silicon Valley is located? -- En ligne avec Thor 2.6a. There are two major products that come from Berkeley: LSD and UNIX. We don't believe this to be a coincidence. -- Jeremy S. Anderson From ernestls at home.com Sat Nov 24 17:51:16 2001 From: ernestls at home.com (Ernest) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:23:48 2005 Subject: Say it ain't so, Joe! (HP stuff to clear out) In-Reply-To: <00c301c17411$15608e40$7937fea9@Guerney> Message-ID: If anyone is interested, I have a deluxe HP150 setup that I need to part with. In fact, it's more of a 150/110/110+ setup. Original 150 touchscreen, with tilt monitor and stand, and the thermal printer built in. (new batteries to) Several different HD/FD base units. A giant collection of the cloth user manuals for the model 100 series (some specific to 150 or 110.)with original software. Model 110 portable, with leather case and external HP portable printer. Model 110+ portable, with leather case The brown interface device to go between the 150 and 110 systems (HP/IB to HP/IL) All the cabling and power packs for everything. I have other related items that I'm forgetting but basically, it's a complete and very clean, fully functional setup. I'm in the Seattle area if anyone is interested. Ernest ernestls@home.com From clascmp at highgate.comm.sfu.ca Sat Nov 24 17:56:08 2001 From: clascmp at highgate.comm.sfu.ca (Kevin McQuiggin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:23:48 2005 Subject: Northstar Horizons Possibly Available Message-ID: <200111242356.fAONu9N72838@highgate.comm.sfu.ca> Hi Gang: I just completed grad school yesterday, and as such am hoping to be back into classiccmp more regularly! I noted this afternoon that there are 2 Northstar "Horizons" possibly available on campus. I'm not into these S-100 (IIRC) beasts but others may be. Can anyone tell me something about them? Anybody interested in adopting them? They're in poor to fair shape, but look like one could get them going again without too much trouble. Kevin -- Kevin McQuiggin VE7ZD mcquiggi@sfu.ca From dan at ekoan.com Sat Nov 24 18:33:32 2001 From: dan at ekoan.com (Dan Veeneman) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:23:48 2005 Subject: Northstar Horizons Possibly Available In-Reply-To: <200111242356.fAONu9N72838@highgate.comm.sfu.ca> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20011124193234.02ce6ec0@enigma> At 03:56 PM 11/24/01 -0800, you wrote: >Anybody interested in adopting them? They're in poor to fair shape, but look >like one could get them going again without too much trouble. Hi Kevin, Congratulations on finishing grad school. Where are you located? Cheers, Dan From jhellige at earthlink.net Sat Nov 24 19:16:01 2001 From: jhellige at earthlink.net (Jeff Hellige) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:23:48 2005 Subject: Lisa Success.....finally... In-Reply-To: <200111242356.fAONu9N72838@highgate.comm.sfu.ca> References: <200111242356.fAONu9N72838@highgate.comm.sfu.ca> Message-ID: Well after working on it off and on for over two years I finally got my Lisa to actually boot up tonight. I've been trying to put it back to Lisa2 specs vice Mac XL and I had swapped a 400k floppy back into it in place of the 800k upgrade that had been peformed. Unfortunately the machine would never power on properly without the XL screenkit installed. Finally tonight I said the heck with it and reinstalled all the parts to the XL screenkit and powered it on, attempting to boot from Macworks XL 3.0 and the Macworks System Disk (Mac Finder 4.1). It worked! Both disks were 400k disks and made from images gotten off of the web. I'm tempted to put the SCSI card/drive back into it and see what I can do with it, though it'd be nice to still figure out what's going on with the original-style CPU card and video system and get it working as a Lisa again. Jeff -- Home of the TRS-80 Model 2000 FAQ File http://www.cchaven.com http://www.geocities.com/siliconvalley/lakes/6757 From jhingber at ix.netcom.com Sat Nov 24 19:37:38 2001 From: jhingber at ix.netcom.com (Jeffrey H. Ingber) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:23:48 2005 Subject: Lisa Success.....finally... In-Reply-To: References: <200111242356.fAONu9N72838@highgate.comm.sfu.ca> Message-ID: <1006652262.2254.0.camel@eleusis> Congrats. I have my own Lisa problems that you might be able to shed some light on. It seems you've spend more time with the machine than I: I have what I beleive to be a Mac XL. It might be a Lisa II, but I'm not sure what the differences are. The system works well enough to power on and boot into MacWorks - but the mouse doesn't register button clicks (the mouse is good, and tested with an older Mac). The mouse I have has a more 'square' mouse button as opposed to the long, thin 'rectanguar' mouse button sometimes seen with these machines: The mouse is marked: M0100 *G442MO10006348* Also, the mouse connector on the motherboard doesn't mate well with the mouse I have. There are no 'receptacles' to catch the thumbscrews on the mouse, and there ins't the ususal metal 'band' around the D-Sub connector on the motherboard. It's either not supposed to be there, or it acts as a ground and is missing. I suspect this why the mouse doesn't register button clicks but I'm not sure. I'll relace the connector with a new one, but only if I'm sure this is the problem. Jeffrey H. Ingber (jhingber _at_ ix.netcom.com) On Sat, 2001-11-24 at 20:16, Jeff Hellige wrote: > Well after working on it off and on for over two years I > finally got my Lisa to actually boot up tonight. I've been trying to > put it back to Lisa2 specs vice Mac XL and I had swapped a 400k > floppy back into it in place of the 800k upgrade that had been > peformed. Unfortunately the machine would never power on properly > without the XL screenkit installed. Finally tonight I said the heck > with it and reinstalled all the parts to the XL screenkit and powered > it on, attempting to boot from Macworks XL 3.0 and the Macworks > System Disk (Mac Finder 4.1). It worked! Both disks were 400k disks > and made from images gotten off of the web. I'm tempted to put the > SCSI card/drive back into it and see what I can do with it, though > it'd be nice to still figure out what's going on with the > original-style CPU card and video system and get it working as a Lisa > again. > > Jeff > -- > Home of the TRS-80 Model 2000 FAQ File > http://www.cchaven.com > http://www.geocities.com/siliconvalley/lakes/6757 > From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Sat Nov 24 19:51:08 2001 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (ajp166) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:23:48 2005 Subject: Northstar Horizons Possibly Available Message-ID: <003601c17555$7a315d50$89ee9a8d@ajp166> I have two already, not adoption here. But if you need info... Basic machine is S100 Z80/4mhz, if ut ran NS* dos no memory below 2000h so usual config there is 48 maybe 52k. If it's running CPM then ram from 0000 to E800 and continues at F000 to FFFFh. Two serial ports, One parallel that can be centronics compatable as an option. FDC is raw TTL, runs hard sector 10 per track and if the later controller is installed double density at 10 sectors by 512bytes with up to 80 tracks and two sides (800k). The older single density controller was 10 sctors by 256 by 35/40 tracks single sided(80/100k) . Media is getting hard to find but is reliable. An easy machine to get and keep running. Most common upgrade was memory and a softsector controller. Allison -----Original Message----- From: Kevin McQuiggin To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org Date: Saturday, November 24, 2001 7:15 PM Subject: Northstar Horizons Possibly Available >Hi Gang: > >I just completed grad school yesterday, and as such am hoping to be back >into classiccmp more regularly! > >I noted this afternoon that there are 2 Northstar "Horizons" possibly available >on campus. > >I'm not into these S-100 (IIRC) beasts but others may be. Can anyone tell me >something about them? > >Anybody interested in adopting them? They're in poor to fair shape, but look >like one could get them going again without too much trouble. > >Kevin > >-- >Kevin McQuiggin VE7ZD >mcquiggi@sfu.ca From pete at dunnington.u-net.com Sat Nov 24 19:13:41 2001 From: pete at dunnington.u-net.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:23:48 2005 Subject: PDP-8/E questions Message-ID: <10111250113.ZM26157@mindy.dunnington.u-net.com> I've got my PDP-8/E cleaned (no more "small" of cat) and partly re-assembled. I've successfully toggled in and run Allison's inchworm program. I handwashed the plastic front panel. I treated the plastic foam from under the backplanes to the hottest wash the washing machine can do, and replaced the rest of the foam (which was crumbly) from the lid. I ran the cards (not the core matrix, though!), backplanes, and over-the-top connectors through the dishwasher, along with some of the smaller parts of the case. I dried the cards with compressed air, and washed out the backplanes and connectors with IPA before blowing them dry too. I treated the switches to a little low-residue cleaner/lubricant. I washed the case with Flash (a proprietary household detergent-type cleaner for floors). I took the fans and relay out of the PSU and then sprayed the inside with enzyme/detergent-based stain remover, hosed it off, drained it, rinsed with about a litre of IPA and then dried it off (compressed air first, then warm air from the hair drier for a few hours). It smells fine now, and it's *very* clean :-) I've almost put everything back together, but I have a few questions before I finish it off. The front bezel (frame round the panel) has been repainted white, and the paint has flaked or chipped off in places, to reveal a chipped coat of beige paint. I'd like to refinish and respray it. What's the correct colour? I'm toying with the idea of replacing the LEDs with bi-pin bulbs, as the panel was originally a bulb panel. The resistors for the warm-up current have been clipped out. What value should they be? What's J5 (3-pin Mate-N-Lok) on the PSU for? And lastly (for now :-)), which direction should the fans blow? The fans in this machine are not original, and I suspect they were put in back-to-front. They were drawing air in from the right (as you look from the front) of the machine, through the cards, into the PSU, and blowing it out through the six large heatsinks and out of the left side of the machine. I think this is the wrong way round, as the laminar flow over the cards won't be as effective as the turbulent flow in the other direction. But what's the normal way in an 8/E? And was there supposed to be a filter anywhere? From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat Nov 24 19:28:10 2001 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:23:48 2005 Subject: PDP-8/E questions In-Reply-To: <10111250113.ZM26157@mindy.dunnington.u-net.com> from "Pete Turnbull" at Nov 25, 1 01:13:41 am Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1800 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20011125/64e79b57/attachment.ksh From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Sat Nov 24 20:03:34 2001 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (ajp166) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:23:48 2005 Subject: PDP-8/E questions Message-ID: <003701c17555$7ad95d20$89ee9a8d@ajp166> From: Pete Turnbull >The front bezel (frame round the panel) has been repainted white, and the >paint has flaked or chipped off in places, to reveal a chipped coat of >beige paint. I'd like to refinish and respray it. What's the correct >colour? DEC gray #68 A color close to eggshell toward very light gray. >I'm toying with the idea of replacing the LEDs with bi-pin bulbs, as the >panel was originally a bulb panel. The resistors for the warm-up current >have been clipped out. What value should they be? leave the leds, likely that mod was done very long ago. The lamps tended to die too often. >What's J5 (3-pin Mate-N-Lok) on the PSU for? Power controller. astly (for now :-)), which direction should the fans blow? The fans >in this machine are not original, and I suspect they were put in >back-to-front. They were drawing air in from the right (as you look from >the front) of the machine, through the cards, into the PSU, and blowing it >out through the six large heatsinks and out of the left side of the >machine. I think this is the wrong way round, as the laminar flow over the >cards won't be as effective as the turbulent flow in the other direction. > But what's the normal way in an 8/E? And was there supposed to be a >filter anywhere? Unknown on direction, I think "out". Filter was a layer of foam where there was one. I have a an 8f so they are somewhat different but the fans blow in across the cards. The PS in the reaw with its own fan. The 8e has the power supply down the left side(facing the front from front) and thefrom right (input) to left (out through the PS). The power supply will tolerate higher temps if memory serves than core. Keeping the core cool and at a relatively constant temp was the key to stable ops. Allison From pete at dunnington.u-net.com Sat Nov 24 19:15:09 2001 From: pete at dunnington.u-net.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:23:48 2005 Subject: Northstar Horizons Possibly Available In-Reply-To: Kevin McQuiggin "Northstar Horizons Possibly Available" (Nov 24, 15:56) References: <200111242356.fAONu9N72838@highgate.comm.sfu.ca> Message-ID: <10111250115.ZM26170@mindy.dunnington.u-net.com> On Nov 24, 15:56, Kevin McQuiggin wrote: > Hi Gang: > > I just completed grad school yesterday, and as such am hoping to be back > into classiccmp more regularly! Congratulations! How timely... you'll see I have questions realted to my recently-acquired PDP-8 :-) -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager University of York From jhellige at earthlink.net Sat Nov 24 20:15:09 2001 From: jhellige at earthlink.net (Jeff Hellige) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:23:48 2005 Subject: Lisa Success.....finally... In-Reply-To: <1006652262.2254.0.camel@eleusis> References: <200111242356.fAONu9N72838@highgate.comm.sfu.ca> <1006652262.2254.0.camel@eleusis> Message-ID: >I have what I beleive to be a Mac XL. It might be a Lisa II, but I'm >not sure what the differences are. The system works well enough to Does yours have an external parallel connector or an internal hard disk or possibly both? I'm pretty sure all Mac XL's lack the external parallel connector, unless there's an expansion card fitted for use with the Profile drive, and that it would be like a Lisa 2/10 and have an internal hard disk. Mine's an earlier Lisa 2 with the external parallel connector, the LisaLite card for interfacing the floppy drive, and the I/O board with the batteries (though I've removed mine). Mine has also been fairly heavily modified, with the addition of the XL Screenkit, 800k floppy ROM and drive (which has since been replaced with 400k ROM and drive combo), SCSI card/drive expansion card, and an internal hard disk mounted just above the floppy. All mods courtesy of Sun Remarketing. >power on and boot into MacWorks - but the mouse doesn't register button >clicks (the mouse is good, and tested with an older Mac). The mouse I >have has a more 'square' mouse button as opposed to the long, thin >'rectanguar' mouse button sometimes seen with these machines: The mouse >is marked: > >M0100 >*G442MO10006348* Standard Mac 128k/Plus mouse. The main variation would be whether it was beige or 'platinum' colored. >Also, the mouse connector on the motherboard doesn't mate well with the >mouse I have. There are no 'receptacles' to catch the thumbscrews on >the mouse, and there ins't the ususal metal 'band' around the D-Sub >connector on the motherboard. It's either not supposed to be there, or >it acts as a ground and is missing. I suspect this why the mouse >doesn't register button clicks but I'm not sure. The original Lisa mice seem to have had an oddball clip connector. I've not actually seen one though, as I use a Mac Plus mouse with mine and my Lisa has the more standard D-sub connector with the screw stanchions. On one of my tests, I didn't have my mouse mated squarely and it wouldn't move the cursor up or down on the screen though it would move it sideways. Tightening the right-most screw on the connector solved this problem. Jeff -- Home of the TRS-80 Model 2000 FAQ File http://www.cchaven.com http://www.geocities.com/siliconvalley/lakes/6757 From dancohoe at oxford.net Sat Nov 24 22:31:17 2001 From: dancohoe at oxford.net (Dan Cohoe) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:23:48 2005 Subject: Lisa Success.....finally... References: <200111242356.fAONu9N72838@highgate.comm.sfu.ca> <1006652262.2254.0.camel@eleusis> Message-ID: <3C007415.86844CDA@oxford.net> Jeff Hellige wrote: > > >I have what I ... snip > > The mouse I have has a more 'square' mouse button as opposed to the long, thin > >'rectanguar' mouse button sometimes seen with these machines: The mouse > >is marked: > > > >M0100 > >*G442MO10006348* > > Standard Mac 128k/Plus mouse. The main variation would be > whether it was beige or 'platinum' colored. > > >Also, the mouse connector on the motherboard doesn't mate well with the > >mouse I have. There are no 'receptacles' to catch the thumbscrews on > >the mouse, and there ins't the ususal metal 'band' around the D-Sub > >connector on the motherboard. It's either not supposed to be there, or > >it acts as a ground and is missing. I suspect this why the mouse > >doesn't register button clicks but I'm not sure. > > The original Lisa mice seem to have had an oddball clip > connector. I've not actually seen one though, as I use a Mac Plus > mouse with mine and my Lisa has the more standard D-sub connector > with the screw stanchions. On one of my tests, I didn't have my > mouse mated squarely and it wouldn't move the cursor up or down on > the screen though it would move it sideways. Tightening the > right-most screw on the connector solved this problem. > > Jeff > -- I have an original Lisa mouse here with the "clip style" connector. Its model A9M0050. The Mac Plus mouse seems to work for me as well. From jhingber at ix.netcom.com Sat Nov 24 23:19:04 2001 From: jhingber at ix.netcom.com (Jeffrey H. Ingber) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:23:48 2005 Subject: Lisa Success.....finally... In-Reply-To: References: <200111242356.fAONu9N72838@highgate.comm.sfu.ca> <1006652262.2254.0.camel@eleusis> Message-ID: <1006665549.2254.2.camel@eleusis> On Sat, 2001-11-24 at 21:15, Jeff Hellige wrote: > >I have what I beleive to be a Mac XL. It might be a Lisa II, but I'm > >not sure what the differences are. The system works well enough to > > Does yours have an external parallel connector or an internal > hard disk or possibly both? I'm pretty sure all Mac XL's lack the > external parallel connector, unless there's an expansion card fitted > for use with the Profile drive, and that it would be like a Lisa 2/10 > and have an internal hard disk. Mine's an earlier Lisa 2 with the The system bears the following numbers under the screen: A6S0200 A6S0204 I can't read the labels above the numbers because the machine is on a bottom shelf, and I'm recovering from a broken arm =). It's equipped with a parallel port (?) addon-card and is accompanied by 2 ProFile external drives which I haven't tested. It also has an internal 10MB (?) Widget drive and a floppy drive, and no parallel ports on the motherboard. There is also another add-in card in the card cage which appears to be a SCSI card, as well as 2 memory boards which I beleive are 512K each. The system also has what appears to be an aftermarket 'glarescreen' installed. I haven't had time to play with the machine much yet, but it _appears_ to be functional with the exception of the mouse. Jeffrey H. Ingber (jhingber _at_ ix.netcom.com) > external parallel connector, the LisaLite card for interfacing the > floppy drive, and the I/O board with the batteries (though I've > removed mine). Mine has also been fairly heavily modified, with the > addition of the XL Screenkit, 800k floppy ROM and drive (which has > since been replaced with 400k ROM and drive combo), SCSI card/drive > expansion card, and an internal hard disk mounted just above the > floppy. All mods courtesy of Sun Remarketing. > > >power on and boot into MacWorks - but the mouse doesn't register button > >clicks (the mouse is good, and tested with an older Mac). The mouse I > >have has a more 'square' mouse button as opposed to the long, thin > >'rectanguar' mouse button sometimes seen with these machines: The mouse > >is marked: > > > >M0100 > >*G442MO10006348* > > Standard Mac 128k/Plus mouse. The main variation would be > whether it was beige or 'platinum' colored. > > >Also, the mouse connector on the motherboard doesn't mate well with the > >mouse I have. There are no 'receptacles' to catch the thumbscrews on > >the mouse, and there ins't the ususal metal 'band' around the D-Sub > >connector on the motherboard. It's either not supposed to be there, or > >it acts as a ground and is missing. I suspect this why the mouse > >doesn't register button clicks but I'm not sure. > > The original Lisa mice seem to have had an oddball clip > connector. I've not actually seen one though, as I use a Mac Plus > mouse with mine and my Lisa has the more standard D-sub connector > with the screw stanchions. On one of my tests, I didn't have my > mouse mated squarely and it wouldn't move the cursor up or down on > the screen though it would move it sideways. Tightening the > right-most screw on the connector solved this problem. > > Jeff > -- > Home of the TRS-80 Model 2000 FAQ File > http://www.cchaven.com > http://www.geocities.com/siliconvalley/lakes/6757 > From wmsmith at earthlink.net Sun Nov 25 00:11:33 2001 From: wmsmith at earthlink.net (Wayne M. Smith) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:23:48 2005 Subject: Lisa Success.....finally... References: <200111242356.fAONu9N72838@highgate.comm.sfu.ca> <1006652262.2254.0.camel@eleusis> Message-ID: <000d01c17578$08ef2460$589bb2d1@Smith.earthlink.net> > The original Lisa mice seem to have had an oddball clip > connector. I've not actually seen one though, as I use a Mac Plus > mouse with mine and my Lisa has the more standard D-sub connector > with the screw stanchions. On one of my tests, I didn't have my > mouse mated squarely and it wouldn't move the cursor up or down on > the screen though it would move it sideways. Tightening the > right-most screw on the connector solved this problem. > > Jeff > -- I have similar Lisa Mouse problems. The mouse, which previously worked, moves vertically but not horizontally. When you boot up the machine the mouse pointer starts out on the far left side of the screen but won't move to the right. I have opened the mouse and there is no problem with the rollers, and I have also traced the wires from the Lisa connector to the 6-pin internal connector in the mouse and there are no breaks. The IR paths also appear clear, but who knows. If you isolate and spin the spoked wheel that should move the mouse horizontally, the arrow jerks around a bit, but does not move off the left border. I have tried using a Mac 128K mouse, and can with that I don't get any movement in either direction. Any ideas, or do I have a board level problem. (I do have that nasty battery corrosion condition.) -W From jhellige at earthlink.net Sun Nov 25 11:45:44 2001 From: jhellige at earthlink.net (Jeff Hellige) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:23:48 2005 Subject: Lisa Success.....finally... In-Reply-To: <000d01c17578$08ef2460$589bb2d1@Smith.earthlink.net> References: <200111242356.fAONu9N72838@highgate.comm.sfu.ca> <1006652262.2254.0.camel@eleusis> <000d01c17578$08ef2460$589bb2d1@Smith.earthlink.net> Message-ID: >Any ideas, or do I have a board level problem. (I do have that nasty >battery corrosion condition.) Thankfully I took the battery pack out of mine before it messed up the board. If you're having mouse problems though and you know it's making good contact on the connector and that the mouse is good, I'd carefully check the traces on the mainboard coming in from the mouse port. The mouseport is close enough to the batteries that the acid could've eaten away enough at one or more of the traces so that the mouse wouldn't function correctly. I replaced the SCSI hard disk on the SCSI card in the Lisa with an Apple-ROM Quantum 80MB drive and transferred the stuff from the external System 6 drive onto the new internal drive. It works great now, booting System 6 from the Quantum internal. Unfortunately, I only got one of the two partitions transferred over from the external disk before it crapped out, so I only got a few of the apps moved over. Oh well...it was an ancient ST-225N that just sat for a number of years on my shelf. I was able to reinitialize it using FWB HDtoolbox on my Powerbook. Jeff -- Home of the TRS-80 Model 2000 FAQ File http://www.cchaven.com http://www.geocities.com/siliconvalley/lakes/6757 From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun Nov 25 13:37:31 2001 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:23:48 2005 Subject: Lisa Success.....finally... In-Reply-To: <000d01c17578$08ef2460$589bb2d1@Smith.earthlink.net> from "Wayne M. Smith" at Nov 24, 1 10:11:33 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 2357 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20011125/f27eebaf/attachment.ksh From jhellige at earthlink.net Sat Nov 24 22:42:43 2001 From: jhellige at earthlink.net (Jeff Hellige) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:23:48 2005 Subject: Lisa Success.....finally... In-Reply-To: <1006652262.2254.0.camel@eleusis> References: <200111242356.fAONu9N72838@highgate.comm.sfu.ca> <1006652262.2254.0.camel@eleusis> Message-ID: >Congrats. > >I have my own Lisa problems that you might be able to shed some light >on. It seems you've spend more time with the machine than I: > >I have what I beleive to be a Mac XL. It might be a Lisa II, but I'm >not sure what the differences are. The system works well enough to I've been messing around with mine some more and put the SCSI card/drive back into it and created a disk for MacWorks Plus, since that's what is needed to recognize the SCSI drive. I used my Color Classic for that. I booted it from various system floppies but was having some trouble because they were too old of a System folder/finder, as MacWorks Plus wants System 6. Finally I took an external hard disk that I've used in the past on my Mac PLUS, and which I knew had System 6.0.3 on it, and hooked it up to the SCSI board in the Lisa. It booted off of it just fine! Unfortunately I still haven't gotten the Lisa's internal SCSI drive to show up yet. Oddly as well, the Lisa keeps wanting to turn itself on ever few minutes unless I unplug it. Jeff -- Home of the TRS-80 Model 2000 FAQ File http://www.cchaven.com http://www.geocities.com/siliconvalley/lakes/6757 From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Sun Nov 25 00:12:05 2001 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (Ben Franchuk) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:23:48 2005 Subject: Lisa Success.....finally... References: <200111242356.fAONu9N72838@highgate.comm.sfu.ca> <1006652262.2254.0.camel@eleusis> Message-ID: <3C008BB5.8138BC3D@jetnet.ab.ca> Jeff Hellige wrote: > It booted off of it just fine! Unfortunately I > still haven't gotten the Lisa's internal SCSI drive to show up yet. > Oddly as well, the Lisa keeps wanting to turn itself on ever few > minutes unless I unplug it. It must be possessed! Keep a sharp ear out for strange moans from the HD, and floppies that never erase! Ben Franchuk. From jhellige at earthlink.net Sun Nov 25 11:47:04 2001 From: jhellige at earthlink.net (Jeff Hellige) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:23:48 2005 Subject: Lisa Success.....finally... In-Reply-To: <3C008BB5.8138BC3D@jetnet.ab.ca> References: <200111242356.fAONu9N72838@highgate.comm.sfu.ca> <1006652262.2254.0.camel@eleusis> <3C008BB5.8138BC3D@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: >Jeff Hellige wrote: >> It booted off of it just fine! Unfortunately I >> still haven't gotten the Lisa's internal SCSI drive to show up yet. >> Oddly as well, the Lisa keeps wanting to turn itself on ever few >> minutes unless I unplug it. > >It must be possessed! Keep a sharp ear out for strange moans from the >HD, and floppies that never erase! Since there's always power applied to the Lisa when it's plugged in, my first though would be something with the powerswitch. At least it's working now. Jeff -- Home of the TRS-80 Model 2000 FAQ File http://www.cchaven.com http://www.geocities.com/siliconvalley/lakes/6757 From beesley at mandrake.demon.co.uk Sun Nov 25 12:01:51 2001 From: beesley at mandrake.demon.co.uk (Phil Beesley) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:23:48 2005 Subject: Lisa Success.....finally... In-Reply-To: <200111251643.KAA04457@opal.tseinc.com> Message-ID: On Sunday, November 25, 2001, at 04:43 pm, classiccmp-digest wrote: > From: Jeff Hellige > Subject: Lisa Success.....finally... > > Well after working on it off and on for over two years I > finally got my Lisa to actually boot up tonight. I've been trying to > put it back to Lisa2 specs vice Mac XL and I had swapped a 400k > floppy back into it in place of the 800k upgrade that had been > peformed. Unfortunately the machine would never power on properly > without the XL screenkit installed. Finally tonight I said the heck > with it and reinstalled all the parts to the XL screenkit and powered > it on, attempting to boot from Macworks XL 3.0 and the Macworks > System Disk (Mac Finder 4.1). It worked! Both disks were 400k disks > and made from images gotten off of the web. I'm tempted to put the > SCSI card/drive back into it and see what I can do with it, though > it'd be nice to still figure out what's going on with the > original-style CPU card and video system and get it working as a Lisa > again. I'm looking forward to performing similar surgery on my Lisa 2/5 with screen mod kit installed. A couple of questions: 1. Did you disconnect the screen transformer that goes between the video board and yoke cable? An obvious question but thought I'd ask. 2. Did you just swap the cpu board with screen mod ROMs for a standard Lisa 2 board, or have you tried putting your Lisa 2 ROMs in the board that you know works? 3. I understand that you need to tweak some of the potentiometers on the video board and possibly the psu. The Sun Remarketing DIY guide to Lisa repair has a section on installing the screen mod kit, so removal should "simply" be the reverse of that procedure... My understanding is that the Lisa will boot with incorrect voltages but the display will be distorted. 4. What symptoms were displayed when you tried booting without the screen mod kit? Phil From jhellige at earthlink.net Sun Nov 25 13:10:23 2001 From: jhellige at earthlink.net (Jeff Hellige) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:23:48 2005 Subject: Lisa Success.....finally... In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: >1. Did you disconnect the screen transformer that goes between the >video board and yoke cable? An obvious question but thought I'd ask. Yes, I removed the transformer the goes between the video board and yoke cable...the one taped to the side of the chasis next to the video board. >2. Did you just swap the cpu board with screen mod ROMs for a >standard Lisa 2 board, or have you tried putting your Lisa 2 ROMs in >the board that you know works? I have 3 cpu boards here, two with the XL ROMs and the third with Rev. H ROMs. I've swapped them and the video state ROM around between the various boards. Same results regardless of which board is used. >3. I understand that you need to tweak some of the potentiometers on >the video board and possibly the psu. The Sun Remarketing DIY guide >to Lisa repair has a section on installing the screen mod kit, so >removal should "simply" be the reverse of that procedure... My >understanding is that the Lisa will boot with incorrect voltages but >the display will be distorted. I adjusted the pots on the video board, but not on the PSU. It will even boot fine with the XL screenkit ROMs but without the additional transformer. The screen's aspect ratio is wrong and it doesn't fill the entire screen, but it works. I've got PDF's of Sun's stuff, as well as the two D. Craig CD's with lots of info. >4. What symptoms were displayed when you tried booting without the >screen mod kit? Blank screen with scan trace lines. I believe it also would give 3 beeps as well. Since my Profile HD is dead, it wouldn't have been much use as a Lisa anyway but it would've been nice to get it working in it's original configuration. There's also an internal hard disk supplied by Sun Rem. that is mounted above the floppy and which runs off of the external parallel port but the drive sounds and smells horrible when powered on. Needless to say, I think it's toast! That's ok...the 80MB drive I've not got mounted on the SCSI card should be more than enough space to play around with it as a Mac XL. It seems to actually be pretty usable in that configuration. Jeff -- Home of the TRS-80 Model 2000 FAQ File http://www.cchaven.com http://www.geocities.com/siliconvalley/lakes/6757 From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun Nov 25 13:17:22 2001 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:23:48 2005 Subject: Lisa Success.....finally... In-Reply-To: <1006652262.2254.0.camel@eleusis> from "Jeffrey H. Ingber" at Nov 24, 1 08:37:38 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 2110 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20011125/8a4f4f2e/attachment.ksh From UberTechnoid at home.com Sat Nov 24 20:31:07 2001 From: UberTechnoid at home.com (UberTechnoid@home.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:23:48 2005 Subject: OT: Fear and helpfulness on classiccmp In-Reply-To: <20011116100925.Y13355-100000@lepton.subatomix.com> Message-ID: <20011125024002.CJNW6448.femail43.sdc1.sfba.home.com@BENCHBOX> I have that problem with my Data General mini. I'm not supposed to have ANY of the tapes I have. The machine is mine, but all software - microcode included I'd bet are property of Data General Corporation as thier licenses have long expired and I'm not the licensee anyway. When the U.S. Forest Service retired thier fleet of DG MVxxxx computers, they did actually destroy all thier tapes, docs, etc. Even formatted the drives. I'm lucky to have what I've got really. Illegal copies though they may be, I rather doubt I'm getting pounded by anyone for hobbying with this machine. I suspect the worst a judge would do is order me to destroy/turn over the tapes. Regards, Jeff In <20011116100925.Y13355-100000@lepton.subatomix.com>, on 11/16/01 at 10:14 AM, "Jeffrey S. Sharp" said: >On Fri, 16 Nov 2001, James B. DiGriz wrote: >> Sometimes, even, it's more honorable to actually be a blatant outlaw >> or an honest thief. -- ----------------------------------------------------------- Jeffrey S. Worley Asheville, NC USA 828-6984887 UberTechnoid@Home.com ----------------------------------------------------------- From ernestls at home.com Sat Nov 24 23:09:50 2001 From: ernestls at home.com (Ernest) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:23:48 2005 Subject: OT: Fear and helpfulness on classiccmp In-Reply-To: <20011125024002.CJNW6448.femail43.sdc1.sfba.home.com@BENCHBOX> Message-ID: > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-classiccmp@classiccmp.org > [mailto:owner-classiccmp@classiccmp.org]On Behalf Of > UberTechnoid@home.com > Sent: Saturday, November 24, 2001 6:31 PM > To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org > Subject: Re: OT: Fear and helpfulness on classiccmp > > > I have that problem with my Data General mini. I'm not supposed to have > ANY of the tapes I have. The machine is mine, but all software - > microcode included I'd bet are property of Data General Corporation as > thier licenses have long expired and I'm not the licensee anyway. > > When the U.S. Forest Service retired thier fleet of DG MVxxxx computers, > they did actually destroy all thier tapes, docs, etc. Even formatted the > drives. Kind of makes you sick to think about doesn't it. > I'm lucky to have what I've got really. Lucky yes but doesn't it seem stupid that all of that ireplacable software and documentation is destroyed. > Illegal copies though they may be, I rather doubt I'm getting pounded by > anyone for hobbying with this machine. I suspect the worst a judge would > do is order me to destroy/turn over the tapes. No judge is going to bother even looking at a case like that. Why? Because no one but busy bodies and dim-witted spoil sports would be mean enough to consider it in legal terms. The only people who would even pay attention to it would be ex grade school hall monitors and meter maids -in other words, people who have such meaningless and worthless lives that the only personal joy they get from living is to try to make other people feel as pathetic as they do. E. > From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Sat Nov 24 20:31:28 2001 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (Ben Franchuk) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:23:48 2005 Subject: PDP-8/E questions References: <003701c17555$7ad95d20$89ee9a8d@ajp166> Message-ID: <3C005800.71AC5960@jetnet.ab.ca> ajp166 wrote: > >I'm toying with the idea of replacing the LEDs with bi-pin bulbs, as the > >panel was originally a bulb panel. The resistors for the warm-up > current > >have been clipped out. What value should they be? > > leave the leds, likely that mod was done very long ago. The lamps > tended to die too often. What about using white leds? Ben Franchuk. From healyzh at aracnet.com Sat Nov 24 22:05:36 2001 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:23:48 2005 Subject: PDP-8/E questions In-Reply-To: <10111250113.ZM26157@mindy.dunnington.u-net.com> Message-ID: >I'm toying with the idea of replacing the LEDs with bi-pin bulbs, as the >panel was originally a bulb panel. The resistors for the warm-up current >have been clipped out. What value should they be? I'd leave them! In fact I'd go so far as to say, I hope the PDP-8/E that should be arriving on Wednesday already has this mod. If not I'll have to see about converting it over to LED's while I'm fixing it up. Word of warning to all, I'll probably have lots of questions starting in a week or so, as long as I can find room to work, about fixing up a PDP-8/E and a PC04. On a possitive note, it's coming with pretty much complete documentation, so I won't be shooting in the dark like I was with my other PDP-8 a couple years ago. Zane -- | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator | | healyzh@aracnet.com (primary) | OpenVMS Enthusiast | | | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | PDP-10 Emulation and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun Nov 25 13:29:02 2001 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:23:48 2005 Subject: PDP-8/E questions In-Reply-To: from "Zane H. Healy" at Nov 24, 1 08:05:36 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 380 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20011125/b54a6d4b/attachment.ksh From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Sat Nov 24 22:42:28 2001 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (ajp166) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:23:48 2005 Subject: PDP-8/E questions Message-ID: <006b01c1756c$bb138160$89ee9a8d@ajp166> From: Ben Franchuk >> >have been clipped out. What value should they be? >> >> leave the leds, likely that mod was done very long ago. The lamps >> tended to die too often. >What about using white leds? >Ben Franchuk. Why? Back then when the led mod was common red was the only available visible color for leds. White leds are a bit blue rich though they would work. One point is that there are some 28 or so leds/lamps and good ones will not be cheap and cleap ones will not be good. Allison From erd_6502 at yahoo.com Sat Nov 24 23:22:03 2001 From: erd_6502 at yahoo.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:23:48 2005 Subject: PDP-8/E questions In-Reply-To: <006b01c1756c$bb138160$89ee9a8d@ajp166> Message-ID: <20011125052203.6591.qmail@web20103.mail.yahoo.com> --- ajp166 wrote: > From: Ben Franchuk > >What about using white leds? > >Ben Franchuk. > > Why? Back then when the led mod was common red was the only > available visible color for leds. White leds are a bit blue rich though > they would work. One point is that there are some 28 or so leds/lamps > and good ones will not be cheap and cleap ones will not be good. At about $3/each, yes they are expensive, but only slightly more expensive than real DEC lamps. Personally, I'd go with either red LEDs or bulbs, since that's what's appropriate for the period. -ethan __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! GeoCities - quick and easy web site hosting, just $8.95/month. http://geocities.yahoo.com/ps/info1 From pete at dunnington.u-net.com Sun Nov 25 06:11:21 2001 From: pete at dunnington.u-net.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:23:48 2005 Subject: PDP-8/E questions In-Reply-To: Ethan Dicks "Re: PDP-8/E questions" (Nov 24, 21:22) References: <20011125052203.6591.qmail@web20103.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <10111251211.ZM26525@mindy.dunnington.u-net.com> On Nov 24, 21:22, Ethan Dicks wrote: > > --- ajp166 wrote: > > From: Ben Franchuk > > >What about using white leds? > > >Ben Franchuk. > > > > Why? Back then when the led mod was common red was the only > > available visible color for leds. White leds are a bit blue rich though > > they would work. One point is that there are some 28 or so leds/lamps > > and good ones will not be cheap and cleap ones will not be good. Agreed. The LEDS are water-white plastic, but red-emitting. Each has its leads cut short, about 1/8" from the body, and a small 430R resistor soldered to the cathode and a wire (probably the trimmed-off resistor lead) to the anode. (Is this what some people have described as an "LED module" or is that something more substantial?) They then fit into the bi-pin lamp sockets. The resistors look like modern miniature metal film, but could be 20 years old. Similar red LEDs cost pennies, maybe 10p. 25p - 35p with integral resistor. Bi-pin bulbs of about the right voltage/current/intensity cost a bit more, about 50p each here. I did think about white LEDs, but they cost over ?3 each. As Allison says, I would need 28 (plus a bag of spares if I use lamps) and white LEDs give off a very cold bluish light, quite unlike the slightly yellow lamps. I thought about yellow LEDs, but they're much *too* yellow. Then I thought about pairs of LEDs, but that's just getting too silly. > At about $3/each, yes they are expensive, but only slightly more expensive > than real DEC lamps. Personally, I'd go with either red LEDs or bulbs, > since that's what's appropriate for the period. I think I'll stick with the existing LEDs and maybe "save up my pocket money" to buy 40 or so bulbs (28 plus a dozen spares). -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager University of York From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Sun Nov 25 10:28:22 2001 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (Ben Franchuk) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:23:48 2005 Subject: PDP-8/E questions References: <20011125052203.6591.qmail@web20103.mail.yahoo.com> <10111251211.ZM26525@mindy.dunnington.u-net.com> Message-ID: <3C011C26.BFFB055F@jetnet.ab.ca> Pete Turnbull wrote: > Agreed. The LEDS are water-white plastic, but red-emitting. Each has its > leads cut short, about 1/8" from the body, and a small 430R resistor > soldered to the cathode and a wire (probably the trimmed-off resistor lead) > to the anode. (Is this what some people have described as an "LED module" > or is that something more substantial?) They then fit into the bi-pin lamp > sockets. The resistors look like modern miniature metal film, but could be > 20 years old. I don't think aging will be that bad. A tube amp yes, but not a led. > Similar red LEDs cost pennies, maybe 10p. 25p - 35p with integral > resistor. Bi-pin bulbs of about the right voltage/current/intensity cost a > bit more, about 50p each here. I did think about white LEDs, but they cost > over ?3 each. As Allison says, I would need 28 (plus a bag of spares if I > use lamps) and white LEDs give off a very cold bluish light, quite unlike > the slightly yellow lamps. I thought about yellow LEDs, but they're much > *too* yellow. Then I thought about pairs of LEDs, but that's just getting > too silly. Since the '?' hints that you are not in the USA , a Red-white-blue front panel is out of the question.:) You could color code the display - green or yellow for each octal digit. > I think I'll stick with the existing LEDs and maybe "save up my pocket > money" to buy 40 or so bulbs (28 plus a dozen spares). That is the best idea, since you still will have working front panel to help with checking that pdp-8 is up and running. > Pete Peter Turnbull From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun Nov 25 13:44:22 2001 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:23:48 2005 Subject: PDP-8/E questions In-Reply-To: <3C011C26.BFFB055F@jetnet.ab.ca> from "Ben Franchuk" at Nov 25, 1 09:28:22 am Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 896 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20011125/65b39186/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun Nov 25 13:41:02 2001 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:23:48 2005 Subject: PDP-8/E questions In-Reply-To: <10111251211.ZM26525@mindy.dunnington.u-net.com> from "Pete Turnbull" at Nov 25, 1 12:11:21 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 700 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20011125/150e624f/attachment.ksh From jhellige at earthlink.net Sun Nov 25 17:10:49 2001 From: jhellige at earthlink.net (Jeff Hellige) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:23:48 2005 Subject: TRS-80 Model 16's looking for good home In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Found this on Usenet and thought some of you might find it interesting. Please reply to the original author. Jeff -------------- From: Bill Gunshannon Newsgroups: comp.sys.tandy Subject: Model-16's looking for a home Date: Sat, 24 Nov 2001 10:55:10 -0500 Organization: University of Scranton Lines: 29 Message-ID: <20011124104845.D5674-100000@server2.cs.scranton.edu> NNTP-Posting-Host: server2.cs.uofs.edu Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII X-Trace: info.cs.uofs.edu 1006617132 33652 134.198.169.3 (24 Nov 2001 15:52:12 GMT) X-Complaints-To: news@cs.uofs.edu NNTP-Posting-Date: 24 Nov 2001 15:52:12 GMT X-X-Sender: I have a pair of model-16's one running the other mostly dismantled (although it may actually be complete, I don't remember) for spare parts that need to find a new home. I also have quite a pile of software for them which may still be readable if bit-rot hasn't taken all those 8" floppies: CPM UCSD Pascal (both 68K and Z80) Xenix TRSDOS (various versions) What do I want for it?? I wouldn't mind if someone had a hard disk interface for a COCO (I have an OS9 project I would like to demo for a professor here) but if no one can come up with one I will still give these boxes away. I'm located in NEPA in the Wilkes-Barre/Scranton area. And I doubt that I could come up with boxes suitable to ship all this stuff so it probably needs to be someone willing to drive by and pick it up. All the best. bill -- Bill Gunshannon | de-moc-ra-cy (di mok' ra see) n. Three wolves bill@cs.scranton.edu | and a sheep voting on what's for dinner. University of Scranton | Scranton, Pennsylvania | #include -- Home of the TRS-80 Model 2000 FAQ File http://www.cchaven.com http://www.geocities.com/siliconvalley/lakes/6757 From pete at dunnington.u-net.com Sun Nov 25 18:49:54 2001 From: pete at dunnington.u-net.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:23:49 2005 Subject: PDP-8/E questions In-Reply-To: ard@p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) "Re: PDP-8/E questions" (Nov 25, 19:41) References: Message-ID: <10111260049.ZM26956@mindy.dunnington.u-net.com> On Nov 25, 19:41, Tony Duell wrote: > The DEC LED module looks like a bi-pin bulb, and has a plastic base > moulding hiding the resistor, etc. It sounds like you have something > home-made, perhaps. It was done by someone who was obviously patient, and very neat. They look identical. I wonder if it was a DEC field mod? Unlikely, I suppose, as Field Service would have had the modules. > > The resistors look like modern miniature metal film, but could = > > be > > 20 years old. > > They are not exactly critical :-) No, they're not :-) I was just trying to guess the age. -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager University of York From pete at dunnington.u-net.com Sun Nov 25 04:47:07 2001 From: pete at dunnington.u-net.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:23:49 2005 Subject: PDP-8/E questions In-Reply-To: ard@p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) "Re: PDP-8/E questions" (Nov 25, 1:28) References: Message-ID: <10111251047.ZM26477@mindy.dunnington.u-net.com> On Nov 25, 1:28, Tony Duell wrote: > > What's J5 (3-pin Mate-N-Lok) on the PSU for? > > AC output (centre-tapped) to the line time clock board or power-fail > interrupt board. Watch out, it comes straight from a secondary on the > mains transformer. There is a fuse, but it's in series with the centre > tap only. Which means that shorting the outside 2 pins together can burn > out the transformer. Ah. That would probably explain why I have a cable with two white wires on pins 1 and 3, and a red wire on pin 2, connected to a 6-pin single-row Mate-N-Lok (like the ones used on power regulators). > > And lastly (for now :-)), which direction should the fans blow? > > I am not sure what the offical way is, but if you reverse the fanse > aren't you going to be blowing hot air (heated by the PSU) over the logic > cards? Most machines I've got where the fans are between the logic and > the PSU draw air in over the logic and blow it out over the PSU heatsinks. It doesn't get very warm, but then there's not much in the machine at the moment. -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager University of York From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun Nov 25 13:39:09 2001 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:23:49 2005 Subject: PDP-8/E questions In-Reply-To: <10111251047.ZM26477@mindy.dunnington.u-net.com> from "Pete Turnbull" at Nov 25, 1 10:47:07 am Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 831 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20011125/44bc6d27/attachment.ksh From pete at dunnington.u-net.com Sun Nov 25 18:52:07 2001 From: pete at dunnington.u-net.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:23:49 2005 Subject: PDP-8/E questions In-Reply-To: ard@p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) "Re: PDP-8/E questions" (Nov 25, 19:39) References: Message-ID: <10111260052.ZM26960@mindy.dunnington.u-net.com> On Nov 25, 19:39, Tony Duell wrote: > > Ah. That would probably explain why I have a cable with two white wires on > > pins 1 and 3, and a red wire on pin 2, connected to a 6-pin single-row > > Mate-N-Lok (like the ones used on power regulators). > > 8 pin Mate-n-lock, surely. Oops, you're right. Of course they're 8-pin. -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager University of York From pete at dunnington.u-net.com Sun Nov 25 04:57:08 2001 From: pete at dunnington.u-net.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:23:49 2005 Subject: PDP-8/E questions In-Reply-To: "ajp166" "Re: PDP-8/E questions" (Nov 24, 21:03) References: <003701c17555$7ad95d20$89ee9a8d@ajp166> Message-ID: <10111251057.ZM26482@mindy.dunnington.u-net.com> On Nov 24, 21:03, ajp166 wrote: > From: Pete Turnbull > >The front bezel (frame round the panel) has been repainted white, and > the > >paint has flaked or chipped off in places, to reveal a chipped coat of > >beige paint. I'd like to refinish and respray it. What's the correct > >colour? > > DEC gray #68 A color close to eggshell toward very light gray. Sounds like a very pale grey, not quite white? A lot lighter than the panel on, say, an 11/34, or an 11/03? I'll see what I can find. Thanks! > >I'm toying with the idea of replacing the LEDs with bi-pin bulbs, as the > >panel was originally a bulb panel. The resistors for the warm-up > current > >have been clipped out. What value should they be? > > leave the leds, likely that mod was done very long ago. The lamps > tended to die too often. Yes, I'm sure it was done a long time ago, possibly even when the machine was new. Judging from the date codes on ICs and dates on some boards, it was made in early 1974. > >What's J5 (3-pin Mate-N-Lok) on the PSU for? > > Power controller. Are you thinking of the ones on the back (on the outside)? This one is inside, near the front, and I think Tony's suggestion (for the power fail) is right. > >Lastly (for now :-)), which direction should the fans blow? > Unknown on direction, I think "out". Filter was a layer of foam where > there > was one. I have a an 8f so they are somewhat different but the fans blow > in > across the cards. The PS in the reaw with its own fan. The 8e has the > power supply down the left side(facing the front from front) and thefrom > right > (input) to left (out through the PS). The power supply will tolerate > higher temps > if memory serves than core. Keeping the core cool and at a relatively > constant temp was the key to stable ops. In that case, I exercise my right to change my mind, and I think they probably are the right way round. The air blown out of the PSU isn't very warm, but it will presumably be warmer when I put lots of cards in and give it more of a load. At some point, I would like to try to get the original core working (it wasn't when I got it). Expect more questions, about debugging 8K core stacks, since I don't have a printset! -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager University of York From gunther at aurora.regenstrief.org Sat Nov 24 20:37:35 2001 From: gunther at aurora.regenstrief.org (Gunther Schadow) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:23:49 2005 Subject: [Fwd: RA90: What's error E0 and 7C (and others)?] Message-ID: <3C00596F.20205@aurora.regenstrief.org> Hi, please, someone with an RA90 service manual (Joop?) can you give me a list of the error codes? Or is the RA9x service manual scanned somewhere? I have tested out my two SA600 racks' worth of RA90 drives and found that 7 out of 16 have some problem. They all had a problem with their fans not spinning up at first, but after a couple of attempts this seems like not a big problem. There is only one that's really dead (drive, not power supply) in that the green LED at the rear (on the power supply) lights up only dim and nothing will come up at the front at all. This is same with a different PSU swapped on, so it's the drive, not the PSU. Not quite sure what to do with that one. But 4 or so of them fail only when trying to spin them up and return an error code 7C. It sounds like they do spin up but when trying to seek the fist time they immediately determine they failed. OTOH, in at least one case just retrying it a couple of times will eventually bring it up and running. Another 2 of them fail earlier when trying to spin up. They come up with erorr E0 pretty much as soon as it's trying to spin up. Yet another one comes up with various errors even before spinning up, and one more seems to work but somewhere down the road may or may not fail with various errors. 54 is one I can remember, but there were all kinds of numbers, none of which mentioned in the RA9x user manual. thanks for your generous advice, -Gunther PS: But I do have one full SA600 rack with working drives and boy, it's pretty impressive firing this up. So many buttons to push and lights to monitor, it's fun. One drive contains VMS 7.2 and I'm sure lots of goodies, but I will not back those up. Once I've switched to UNIX I can try RAID with them :-). Does anybody know if the HSC90 by itself does RAID given a disk array and the proper configuration? -- Gunther Schadow, M.D., Ph.D. gschadow@regenstrief.org Medical Information Scientist Regenstrief Institute for Health Care Adjunct Assistant Professor Indiana University School of Medicine tel:1(317)630-7960 http://aurora.regenstrief.org -- Gunther Schadow, M.D., Ph.D. gschadow@regenstrief.org Medical Information Scientist Regenstrief Institute for Health Care Adjunct Assistant Professor Indiana University School of Medicine tel:1(317)630-7960 http://aurora.regenstrief.org From gunther at aurora.regenstrief.org Sat Nov 24 20:48:50 2001 From: gunther at aurora.regenstrief.org (Gunther Schadow) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:23:49 2005 Subject: Is HSC90 a PDP-11 or what? Message-ID: <3C005C12.8020108@aurora.regenstrief.org> Who knows what processor/architecture an HSC90 is? Is it a PDP-11? What's it's bus? Sounds like it doesn't mix with UNIBUS or Q-BUS cards at least not looking at the card numbers "Lxxxx" (HSC) vs. "Mxxxx" (UNIBUS/Q-BUS). The reason I'm asking is that I'm looking for the most multi- use of my big-iron hardware that takes up so much space. I believe I will be able to run the console computer of my future 11/78x as a PDP-11. Would be nice if this is possible with the HSC90 as well. I would like to: - provide a PDP-11/RSX-11 environment for my neighbor to play with without getting a dedicated PDP-11. Probably I can do that in the future with the LSI-11 of the VAX 11/78x that hopefully some day will decorate my garage. - try running 2.9 BSD on a PDP-11. Not knowing much about 2.x BSD, I could imagine making the HSC90 into a UNIX-based file server or something. regards, -Gunther -- Gunther Schadow, M.D., Ph.D. gschadow@regenstrief.org Medical Information Scientist Regenstrief Institute for Health Care Adjunct Assistant Professor Indiana University School of Medicine tel:1(317)630-7960 http://aurora.regenstrief.org From bqt at update.uu.se Mon Nov 26 01:27:04 2001 From: bqt at update.uu.se (Johnny Billquist) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:23:49 2005 Subject: Is HSC90 a PDP-11 or what? In-Reply-To: <3C005C12.8020108@aurora.regenstrief.org> Message-ID: On Sat, 24 Nov 2001, Gunther Schadow wrote: > Who knows what processor/architecture an HSC90 is? Is it a PDP-11? > What's it's bus? Sounds like it doesn't mix with UNIBUS or Q-BUS > cards at least not looking at the card numbers "Lxxxx" (HSC) vs. > "Mxxxx" (UNIBUS/Q-BUS). It's a PDP-11. It's not Q-bus, nor Unibus. > The reason I'm asking is that I'm looking for the most multi- > use of my big-iron hardware that takes up so much space. I believe > I will be able to run the console computer of my future 11/78x > as a PDP-11. Would be nice if this is possible with the HSC90 > as well. I would like to: > > - provide a PDP-11/RSX-11 environment for my neighbor to play > with without getting a dedicated PDP-11. Probably I can do that > in the future with the LSI-11 of the VAX 11/78x that hopefully > some day will decorate my garage. Huh? Are you saying that you plan on running the front-end as a regular PDP-11? It's quite a non-standard configuration as far as PDP-11s go. > - try running 2.9 BSD on a PDP-11. Not knowing much about > 2.x BSD, I could imagine making the HSC90 into a UNIX-based > file server or something. 2.11 will not boot on an HSC. It's quite a special environment, and the only mass-storage that the PDP-11 have itself is the RX50 floppies. Johnny Johnny Billquist || "I'm on a bus || on a psychedelic trip email: bqt@update.uu.se || Reading murder books pdp is alive! || tryin' to stay hip" - B. Idol From UberTechnoid at home.com Sat Nov 24 20:49:28 2001 From: UberTechnoid at home.com (UberTechnoid@home.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:23:49 2005 Subject: Video Tape Backup device.... (was: Re: Additional drive and supplemental info.) Message-ID: <20011125024916.CKBZ11395.femail39.sdc1.sfba.home.com@BENCHBOX> ------------------------------------------------------------------------- The following message is forwarded to you by UberTechnoid@Home.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------- >From: UberTechnoid@Home.com >Date: Sat, 24 Nov 2001 14:47:04 -0500 >To: "Bruce Lane" >In-Reply-To: <200111171454420865.087C791A@192.168.42.129> >Subject: Video Tape Backup device.... (was: Re: Additional drive and supplemental info.) I saw one advertized for the Atari 8-bits back in early 80's called the "Mirror tape" backup system from iirc Corvus? To tell the truth, I never really believed something like this would be reliable, but for three grand or more it HAD to be. Right? I'm still trying to wrap my head around how something like that worked. Just automate the front panel of a vrc and..... You could do random access even. Eeeeeeeeeewwwwwww. Gives me the willies. Especially a 'kit' version..... Regards, Jeff In <200111171454420865.087C791A@192.168.42.129>, on 11/17/01 at 02:54 PM, "Bruce Lane" said: > This one is light and small enough to be shipped. It's a 'Gigastore' >drive from Digi-Data Corp. Best of all, it includes the >operation/maintenance manual(!). > The 'Gigastore' is a weird device. What Digi-Data did is take a regular >VHS VCR, make some modifications to the transport assembly, and added >their own electronics to provide a Pertec interface. The result was a >tape backup system that used regular VHS tapes, could store up to 2.5 >gigabytes of data, and could interface to any Pertec controller. > This one's cheap: $25.00 or best offer, plus shipping. > Also, FYI: The HP 9-track drive I mentioned earlier would include the >manual. > Thanks much. >-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- >Bruce Lane, Owner & Head Hardware Heavy, >Blue Feather Technologies -- http://www.bluefeathertech.com >ARS KC7GR (Formerly WD6EOS) since 12-77 -- kyrrin@bluefeathertech.com >"I'll get a life when someone demonstrates that it would be superior to >what I have now..." (Taki Kogoma, aka Gym Z. Quirk) -- ----------------------------------------------------------- Jeffrey S. Worley Asheville, NC USA 828-6984887 UberTechnoid@Home.com ----------------------------------------------------------- ----------------------------------------------------- -- End of forwarded message ----------------------------------------------------- -- ----------------------------------------------------------- Jeffrey S. Worley Asheville, NC USA 828-6984887 UberTechnoid@Home.com ----------------------------------------------------------- From fmc at reanimators.org Sat Nov 24 22:14:58 2001 From: fmc at reanimators.org (Frank McConnell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:23:49 2005 Subject: Video Tape Backup device.... (was: Re: Additional drive and supplemental info.) In-Reply-To: UberTechnoid@home.com's message of "Sat, 24 Nov 2001 21:49:28 -0500" References: <20011125024916.CKBZ11395.femail39.sdc1.sfba.home.com@BENCHBOX> Message-ID: <200111250414.fAP4Ew982495@daemonweed.reanimators.org> UberTechnoid@home.com wrote: > I saw one advertized for the Atari 8-bits back in early 80's called the > "Mirror tape" backup system from iirc Corvus? Yes. I don't think it was so much for the Atari as it was for the Corvus hard disks. > To tell the truth, I never really believed something like this would be > reliable, but for three grand or more it HAD to be. Right? I've heard mixed reports, never actually tried to use it myself. > I'm still trying to wrap my head around how something like that worked. > Just automate the front panel of a vrc and..... You could do random access > even. Eeeeeeeeeewwwwwww. Gives me the willies. Especially a 'kit' > version..... Go check out US patent 4,380,047. That's the Corvus Mirror patent. -Frank McConnell From clascmp at highgate.comm.sfu.ca Sat Nov 24 21:25:46 2001 From: clascmp at highgate.comm.sfu.ca (Kevin McQuiggin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:23:49 2005 Subject: Northstar Horizons Possibly Available In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20011124193234.02ce6ec0@enigma> Message-ID: <200111250325.fAP3Plh73070@highgate.comm.sfu.ca> Hi Dan: Thanks. I'm in Vancouver, BC. Kevin > At 03:56 PM 11/24/01 -0800, you wrote: > >Anybody interested in adopting them? They're in poor to fair shape, but look > >like one could get them going again without too much trouble. > > Hi Kevin, > > Congratulations on finishing grad school. Where are you located? > > > Cheers, > > Dan > > -- Kevin McQuiggin VE7ZD mcquiggi@sfu.ca From clascmp at highgate.comm.sfu.ca Sat Nov 24 21:33:58 2001 From: clascmp at highgate.comm.sfu.ca (Kevin McQuiggin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:23:49 2005 Subject: Northstar Horizons Possibly Available In-Reply-To: <003601c17555$7a315d50$89ee9a8d@ajp166> Message-ID: <200111250333.fAP3XxM73099@highgate.comm.sfu.ca> Hi Allison: Thanks for the reply and long time no type! The machines are the earlier version from what I can tell from the 'Net, as they have wooden cases. They are currently in a pile with a bunch of other older stuff, chart recorders, dead terminals etc. so I will likely grab them next week, after I find whoever is in charge of this junk and get their permission to recover the machines. Thanks for the info, I'm not really into S-100 but I hate to see any early machine scrapped! Kevin -- Kevin McQuiggin VE7ZD mcquiggi@sfu.ca From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Sat Nov 24 22:39:39 2001 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (ajp166) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:23:49 2005 Subject: Northstar Horizons Possibly Available Message-ID: <006a01c1756c$b7863bf0$89ee9a8d@ajp166> From: Kevin McQuiggin >The machines are the earlier version from what I can tell from the 'Net, >as they have wooden cases. They are currently in a pile with a bunch of The wood case does not denote model age. Also they could have been upgraded as it was cheap and simple to do. >Thanks for the info, I'm not really into S-100 but I hate to see any early >machine scrapped! Cant blame you for that. I have two and they take enough room that more would be tough to take. However one of them has been in use for nearly 23 years now! >Kevin McQuiggin VE7ZD >mcquiggi@sfu.ca Ever work 6M? Allison KB1GMX From r.stek at snet.net Sun Nov 25 16:01:46 2001 From: r.stek at snet.net (Bob Stek) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:23:49 2005 Subject: Northstar Horizons Possibly Available Message-ID: <000901c175fc$ccc5fba0$0201a8c0@bob> Kevin - I, too, have sufficient Horizons (besides if the shipping didn't kill me, my wife would). But if you are of a mind to restore them, I can offer xerox copies of most docs for about a nickel a page, or you can borrow them and make your own copies. Of course I have boot disks for N* DOS as well as CP/M, and California Digital still sells hard-sectored floppies (WWW.CADIGITAL.COM). I'd bet that if you couldn't find a list member to give them a home, you could sell them on eBay for $100-$200 each in working condition. Good luck with them. They are still one of my favorite S-100 boxes. Bob Stek Saver of Lost Sols From mrbill at mrbill.net Sat Nov 24 23:08:30 2001 From: mrbill at mrbill.net (Bill Bradford) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:23:49 2005 Subject: FS/FT: PDP core memory boards Message-ID: <20011124230830.Y14419@mrbill.net> I've got two of these: (from the Field Guide): H215 Unibus 8-Kword 18-bit (parity) H213 (used in MM11-LP, ME15) in what looks to be great (for their age) condition. I dont have a box to test them out in, however. Would like to trade for 10baseT ethernet switches, especially Kalpana or Cisco. Bill -- Bill Bradford mrbill@mrbill.net Austin, TX From cisin at xenosoft.com Sun Nov 25 00:20:07 2001 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin (XenoSoft)) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:23:49 2005 Subject: Preserving old literature (was: Re: Tandy 10 Info Wanted) In-Reply-To: <366.729T2400T375969optimus@canit.se> Message-ID: > >> I swear, from some of the things you folks say, it > >> seems like most of you live in some third world country. > >Yes. > >California. On 25 Nov 2001, Iggy Drougge wrote: > Isn't that where the Silicon Valley is located? Yes > -- > En ligne avec Thor 2.6a. > There are two major products that come from Berkeley: LSD and UNIX. > We don't believe this to be a coincidence. > -- Jeremy S. Anderson Neither LSD nor UNIX originated in Berkeley. But both achieved prominence there. From wmsmith at earthlink.net Sun Nov 25 00:59:05 2001 From: wmsmith at earthlink.net (Wayne M. Smith) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:23:49 2005 Subject: HP Composite Video Interface Card References: <006701c0933b$7404d080$ece9b3d1@Smith.earthlink.net> <200102101755.f1AHt5467295@daemonweed.reanimators.org> <045101c174c4$df93c520$c599b2d1@Smith.earthlink.net> Message-ID: <003701c1757e$ac98aae0$589bb2d1@Smith.earthlink.net> > > "Wayne M. Smith" wrote: > > > I am using an HP composite video card (98204A) in a > > > 9000/200 series and am getting a very small multiple > > > image on the screen. Is there something special about > > > HP composite video or is this just a bad card? I've > > > tried the card in both a 9000/200 and 9000/220 with the > > > same result. Any ideas? > > > > "Frank McConnell" wrote > > Just a wild guess, but if you have an HP 35731A monochrome monitor, > > try it with that. That wants composite video but with a horizontal > > frequency of 30KHz instead of the more usual 15KHz. HP used that on > > several different systems. > > Frank, you were right! I recently picked up a 35731A with a batch of HP > stuff, plugged it into the 98204A, and the video's perfect. Now that I > can see the output, I was also able to confirm that, as expected, an HP > Integral keyboard works with the series 200 HIL card. > > Now, if only I could find an OS. HPL or HP BASIC would be nice. > Never mind. Just hooked up a 9134 drive that was with the HP stuff I got and found that it has HP Basic 2.0 and Pascal on it. Yay! -W From spedraja at ono.com Sun Nov 25 03:26:11 2001 From: spedraja at ono.com (SP) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:23:49 2005 Subject: Datapoint 1100, 2200 and 5500 processors Message-ID: <00c201c17593$394a56a0$3f912a3e@margarita.spedraja.net> Hello. I recently received one book named "A guide for operating Datapoint Equipment". It is 88 pages long and describes very good all the processors and peripherals that could be attached to one of these systems. In another place in the Internet mentions that the cassette operating system of these machines was the CTOS (yes, the processor appeared to have a couple of cassette units and load the OS from one of it). Do somebody has software for this machine ? Is it possible to get something for one repository or download place ? Do it exists some documentation scanned or available ? I should like to know experiences of everyone with this machine if this can be possible. And finally... Somebody knows a place where one of these systems would be working or at least operative ? Thanks and Greetings SP From foo at siconic.com Sun Nov 25 22:24:58 2001 From: foo at siconic.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:23:49 2005 Subject: Datapoint 1100, 2200 and 5500 processors In-Reply-To: <00c201c17593$394a56a0$3f912a3e@margarita.spedraja.net> Message-ID: On Sun, 25 Nov 2001, SP wrote: > Hello. I recently received one book named "A guide for operating > Datapoint Equipment". It is 88 pages long and describes very good all > the processors and peripherals that could be attached to one of these > systems. In another place in the Internet mentions that the cassette > operating system of these machines was the CTOS (yes, the processor > appeared to have a couple of cassette units and load the OS from one > of it). Sounds cool. I wish I had a copy. > Do somebody has software for this machine ? Is it possible to get > something for one repository or download place ? Do it exists some > documentation scanned or available ? > > And finally... Somebody knows a place where one of these systems would > be working or at least operative ? I have several of these machines. In fact I have enough machines for a complete network. However, I don't know what operating condition mine are in. I got them over a year ago but haven't had time to play around with them. I know I have the 1500, 1520, 2200 and 1800 model processors. My recollection is fuzzy so those numbers may be off, and I'm probably missing one or two models. Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org From mhstein at usa.net Sun Nov 25 17:54:48 2001 From: mhstein at usa.net (M H Stein) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:23:49 2005 Subject: Datapoint 1100, 2200 and 5500 processors Message-ID: <01C175E3.7C0653E0@mse-d03> -----------------Original Message------------------- Date: Sun, 25 Nov 2001 10:26:11 +0100 From: "SP" Subject: Datapoint 1100, 2200 and 5500 processors Hello. I recently received one book named "A guide for operating Datapoint Equipment". It is 88 pages long and describes very good all the processors and peripherals that could be attached to one of these systems. In another place in the Internet mentions that the cassette operating system of these machines was the CTOS (yes, the processor appeared to have a couple of cassette units and load the OS from one of it). Do somebody has software for this machine ? Is it possible to get something for one repository or download place ? Do it exists some documentation scanned or available ? ++++++ Hello, Sergio: There were some Datapoint software manuals in the stuff I just sent to Norm (norm@docnorm.com); ask him what he plans to do with them. mike OS/2 is either the operating system that will take us into the 21st century or (it) will take Microsoft into Chapter 11. -Mark Minasi, 1988 From jfoust at threedee.com Sun Nov 25 07:03:18 2001 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:23:49 2005 Subject: Rescue two CDC 844 (big) drives in Hamilton, Ontario Message-ID: <5.0.0.25.0.20011125070126.02354680@pc> Reply to him, not me. - John >Date: Sun, 25 Nov 2001 04:59:28 -0500 >From: Homer Seywerd >To: jfoust@threedee.com >Subject: Computer Rescue needed! > >Hello, >My name is Homer Seywerd and I know of two complete CDC 844 disk >drives. (sorry no cpu). These weigh about 500 lbs each, but have nice >rollers underneath, and are easy to push. (This makes them easy to push >up onto a truck, or more likely in this case, into a skip). > >I have been browsing the internet looking for a news group or something >to advertise their availability, and would appreciate your help in >locating a home for them. If now one is interested, I guess I'll strip >them for parts. Size is 4-1/2' x 2-1/2' x 4' approx. > >These are located in Hamilton, Ontario CANADA. There shouldn't be any >problem getting them across the border. > >Thanks, >Homer Seywerd >Dundas, Ontario From achim.buerger at online-club.de Sun Nov 25 10:35:45 2001 From: achim.buerger at online-club.de (Dr. Achim Buerger) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:23:49 2005 Subject: Say it ain't so, Joe! Message-ID: <3C011DE0.78771988@online-club.de> Hello Joe, I feel sorry that I can't pick up a 9825 because I live in germany. Is there any chance to ship a machine? Regards, Achim From meltlet at fastmail.fm Sun Nov 25 10:48:58 2001 From: meltlet at fastmail.fm (Alex White) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:23:49 2005 Subject: test... Message-ID: <1006706942.2333.0.camel@stolichnaya.meltie.mine.nu> ...ing, please ignore! From gehrich at tampabay.rr.com Sun Nov 25 12:49:50 2001 From: gehrich at tampabay.rr.com (Gene Ehrich) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:23:49 2005 Subject: Adam Computer In-Reply-To: <1006706942.2333.0.camel@stolichnaya.meltie.mine.nu> Message-ID: <4.3.2.7.2.20011125134903.00a988e0@pop3.norton.antivirus> Does anybody have any idea of the value of a brand new in boxes Adam computer? From curt at atari-history.com Sun Nov 25 19:20:14 2001 From: curt at atari-history.com (Curt Vendel) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:23:49 2005 Subject: Adam Computer References: <4.3.2.7.2.20011125134903.00a988e0@pop3.norton.antivirus> Message-ID: <000d01c17618$8296fb30$0a00a8c0@cvendel> Gene, There is a place on the web, Adam's House, I think its www.ecoleco.com and he sells units brand new there, so you can get an idea of what the current sale price is, his prices are a bit higher then some hobbyist based storefronts, but its all around the same area. Curt ----- Original Message ----- From: "Gene Ehrich" To: Sent: Sunday, November 25, 2001 1:49 PM Subject: Adam Computer > Does anybody have any idea of the value of a brand new in boxes Adam computer? > From foo at siconic.com Sun Nov 25 22:28:30 2001 From: foo at siconic.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:23:49 2005 Subject: Adam Computer In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.2.20011125134903.00a988e0@pop3.norton.antivirus> Message-ID: On Sun, 25 Nov 2001, Gene Ehrich wrote: > Does anybody have any idea of the value of a brand new in boxes Adam > computer? >From "free" to $infinity. Depends on who's buying. Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org From dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com Sun Nov 25 10:58:51 2001 From: dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com (Douglas Quebbeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:23:49 2005 Subject: Intel C8080A chip brings $565 on EBAY Message-ID: <7A9BACCEF0171D4FB77019F5104CDD37225979@jeffserver.tegjeff.com> > National made an MM5203 that was also 256-bytes in size and was also difficult > to program. It was an even more suitable part for jewelry, as it had a gold > flash all over its upper surface. It was quite a striking piece of hardware > with its large gold surface and extra thick quartz window glued to the top. Ditto the 5204, which PTC used in the first SOL personalty modules... -dq From cfandt at netsync.net Sun Nov 25 12:33:27 2001 From: cfandt at netsync.net (Christian Fandt) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:23:49 2005 Subject: RESCUE: DEC hardware for the taking Message-ID: <4.1.20011125103556.00b1e730@206.231.8.2> Greetings those who are interested in older DEC PDP-11 systems! I must clear out excess gear remaining after The Great Haul From Summer '98. I've separated pretty much what I will keep, a few others have in their possession some other items. What remains is listed below. It's been setting in our garage. I must clear it out ASAP as I need to move the items that I'm storing in a storage unit into its place. I can't justify anymore spending of the $$ on that storage unit when I can be using it to pay towards my bills. Plus, I need to have that mostly antique radio-related stuff home to work on and perhaps sell/swap. Additionally, and this is important for you to know, if I cannot find a home for what DEC gear remains I must regrettably SCRAP it. It cannot stay here. Here's the list. See notes below list. 1. PDP-11/24 with two RL02s in short rack, same footprint as an 11/750. Has RK-11 and UDA-50 boardsets. 2. PDP-11/34A -seems to be older model "A" with early Programmer's Panel. Early, I think, because it's made of boxy-shaped stamped sheetmetal and not the thermofoam cast bezels like we usually see. Same electronics though. In short rack. 2. RK07 in short rack. 4. RK07 in short rack. 5. RA81 in short rack. 6. TS03 Tape system in 6' rack with BA-11 controller chassis & boards. 7. RK07 in short rack. Said to possibly not work. 8. RA60-AA in short rack. 9. A couple of BA-11 chassis. 10. 2 units: Decwriter III (LA120) 11. 1-Decwriter II 12. Two or three RL02s, no rack. 13. RL01-A, no rack. 14. Bunches of tapes. Mostly TS-03 7" reels. Take them all. 15. Bunches of RL01 and RL02 disc paks. Several RK07 paks. Take one, then all will go with it. 16. 7' tall tape storage rack. 17. Maybe a couple of terminals, VT-100, ADM-3 18. Perhaps some other useful stuff that I uncover. End. Notes: * As is, where is. Naturally, for a rescue. I simply do not have any resources to ship this equipment. * I refer to a 'short rack' as the one which is about 4' tall and rolls around. Same styling as VAX 11/750 cabinet, etc. as some of you already may know. I just can't recall the 'H' -part number of these racks right now nor see the numbers without pulling big piles of stuff out of the way. ** No documentation available. I've kept all that pertains to the gear I'm keeping; swapped off other items (and lookin' for a few more bits). ** Unknown what the original 11/24 setup was although the RK-11 boardset inside belies one or more of the RK07 drives possibly being hung off it. In fact, only the 11/750, which has since found a new home, had any systemic configuration history that I could figure out from all the various PDP-11 and VAX gear rescued in the original '98 Great Haul -except of course for the small 11/53, 11/23 and MVII systems which are in my collection now. Came out of Bradford, PA -a very much rural city even by Jamestown's standards. ** Plan on taking the gear as soon as you can get one or more "Rescue Brigades" arranged. Find folks who will divide it up with you. ** It all has to be out of the garage as soon as possible. You really should bring a truck with a liftgate, truck with ramp and a strong assistant or two, "lowboy" trailer with ramp -or whatever it takes because I have no loading dock on my garage, of course. ** Price is cheeeep. Just take it all away. Unless, at your option, in trade you have some bits for my VAX 11/730 that will yield for me a nicely runable system (mass storage, boot tape, documentation, etc.) or some SCSI interface boards (QBUS & UNIBUS) or whatever else you think I can use (small stuff!). I'm in Western New York State. Jamestown is on Interstate 86 (old NY State Route 17 Expressway) about 45-50 miles east of Erie, PA. Interstate 90 is on the western terminus of I-86, near Erie. Figure around 80 miles to here from the Buffalo city center. Thanks for helping rescue this DEC equipment! Best regards, Chris -- -- NNNN Christian Fandt, Electronic/Electrical Historian Jamestown, NY USA cfandt@netsync.net Member of Antique Wireless Association URL: http://www.antiquewireless.org/ From mew_list at swbell.net Sun Nov 25 13:29:16 2001 From: mew_list at swbell.net (Mitch Wright) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:23:49 2005 Subject: SMC HDC9224 datasheet / pinout References: <4.1.20011125103556.00b1e730@206.231.8.2> Message-ID: <3C01468C.1DF9@swbell.net> Hi folks, Anyone know where there is a scanned or web version of the SMC HDC9224 data sheet and pinout? Thanks. From edick at idcomm.com Sun Nov 25 14:52:12 2001 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:23:49 2005 Subject: SMC HDC9224 datasheet / pinout References: <4.1.20011125103556.00b1e730@206.231.8.2> <3C01468C.1DF9@swbell.net> Message-ID: <001e01c175f3$0efc4100$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> I've got the datasheet, although you couldn't pick a worse time for me to scan something. Dick ----- Original Message ----- From: "Mitch Wright" To: Sent: Sunday, November 25, 2001 12:29 PM Subject: SMC HDC9224 datasheet / pinout > Hi folks, > > Anyone know where there is a scanned or web version of the SMC HDC9224 > data sheet and pinout? > > Thanks. > > From SUPRDAVE at aol.com Sun Nov 25 13:52:50 2001 From: SUPRDAVE at aol.com (SUPRDAVE@aol.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:23:49 2005 Subject: Adam Computer Message-ID: <159.4a5ec0e.2932a612@aol.com> In a message dated 11/25/2001 2:02:51 PM Eastern Standard Time, gehrich@tampabay.rr.com writes: > Does anybody have any idea of the value of a brand new in boxes Adam > computer? > like the old saying goes, it's worth whatever someone will pay for it. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20011125/b5072d3f/attachment.html From meltlet at fastmail.fm Sun Nov 25 14:22:00 2001 From: meltlet at fastmail.fm (Alex White) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:23:49 2005 Subject: Ahh. Message-ID: <1006719723.2333.4.camel@stolichnaya.meltie.mine.nu> *settles back into the list* Hello again guys, i've missed you. I've also accumulated a couple of questions in my absence: Have any of you heard of an Applix DIY computer? Apparently it's m68k-based, but I know little more. I've found the manuals online quite easily, but i'd like to know any experiences with one - what OS and so on. Actually, if you have any information on 680x0 homebrews, let me know! Thanks Alex From victor9000us at yahoo.com Sun Nov 25 14:22:42 2001 From: victor9000us at yahoo.com (Brad Chase) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:23:49 2005 Subject: FS: Victor Technologies Computers, Software, Documentation Message-ID: <20011125202242.55847.qmail@web21109.mail.yahoo.com> Please respond directly to victor9000us@yahoo.com The Victor 9000 was an impressive early generation 808x based PC designed by Chuck Peddle. With a (for the time) high resolution green screen no glare monitor, large 1.2mb 5 1/4" floppies, and built-in sound capabilities, it was an excellent machine. Indeed, Victor scored many early sales wins with large companies such as Ford Motor Cars. I have a considerable stash of Victor Technologies equipment, software, and documentation that I must part with. Read on... Victor Technologies Vicki Portable System ----------------------------------------- Rare Victor 9000 compatible portable (well, luggable, though smaller and lighter than the original Compaqs) from the early 1980s. This system has dual 1.2 mb 5 1/4" floppy drives, 640KB of memory, keyboard, built-in small green screen (8" or so I think), and built-in serial and parallel ports. (Floppies are NOT PC/AT compatible, as Victors use a variable speed floppy system to achieve 1.2mb.) System is in full working order (I booted it yesterday to make sure), and comes with MS-DOS 2.11 and MS-DOS 3.1 for Vicki and diagnostics diskettes. Victor 9000 System with PlusPC IBM Compatibility Kit ---------------------------------------------------- When Victor realized that PCs and PC clones were going to become the standard, they created the PlusPC kit to retrofit Victor 9000s to become PC compatible. PlusPC systems can boot in either "V" mode, which is fully Victor compatible or "I" mode which is fully PC compatible (with the exception of not being able to format 360K diskettes). System can read and write both PC 360K diskettes and Victor 640K single side or 1.2mb double side diskettes. This Victor 9000 system has had the PlusPC kit installed. It is a dual double-sided floppy system (the PlusPC was installable only on double sided floppy machines) with 512K of RAM and built in serial and parallel ports. It comes with power cables, MS-DOS for PlusPC, MS-DOS for Victor 9000, monitor, keyboard, and manuals. The system works-- I booted it yesterday. Also included are a set of customer built, foam lined, hard sided carrying cases for the system. I also think I have the original controller board that will let you turn this back into a pure Victor 9000-- if I have it, I'll include it with the system. Victor 9000 Networking Equipment -------------------------------- I have a few (4 I think) Victor 9000 Network cards. I also have the network interface boxes, some cabling, software for DOS 1.25 and 2.11, documentation, and device driver software. The hardware was all taken from a working network a few years ago, and I believe it all works, but I won't promise. Just about guaranteed to be incompatible with any other network hardware. ;-) Other Victor 9000 Hardware -------------------------- 1 PlusPC Kit, not installed in a system, with manuals still in shrink wrap. 2 or 3 Victor 9000 memory boards from various manufacturers. May not work (I'm sure one doesn't), but also full of memory chips. 1 Victor clock card. May or may not work. Miniscribe III hard disk. May or may not work. Victor 9000 Software and Tool Kits ---------------------------------- MS-DOS 1.25 for Victor 9000 MS-DOS 2.11 for Victor 9000 MS-DOS 3.1 for Victor 9000 CP/M-86 for Victor 9000 Victor Hard Disk Tool Kit Victor Hard Disk Tool Kit II Victor Graphics Tool Kit Victor Graphics Tool Kit II Victor Programmers Tool Kit Victor Audio Tool Kit with audio amplifier card (Allows voice recording. The victors have a built in voice playback capability.) Victor CP/M-80 system with Z-80 card. Yep, you really can run Z-80 programs on a Victor. Assorted Victor diagnostic disks Word Perfect 4.x (DOS version) for Victor 9000 with manuals Complete VictorPULSE public domain software library- over 70 disks of software, information, and documentation for Victor 9000s. Write Crane RAM disk for Victor 9000 White Crane Brooklyn bridge (PC transfer software) for Victor 9000 Fancy Font (scalable fonts from dot matrix printers) for Victor 9000 Victor Documentation -------------------- Victor Hardware Reference Manual Victor Supplementary Hardware Reference Manual (This is also available in electronic form as one of the disks in the public domain software set.) Victor Field Service Bulletins Valid Technologies Memory Board manual & diagnostics Pretty complete set of Channel 9000 (Victor User Group) newsletters Odds and Ends ------------- US Robotics Courier 2400 (external) modem. (Yes, there is communication software in all that software above-- it's in with the public domain stuff. No, it won't do TCP/IP.) US Robotics Sportster 9600 (external) modem Citizen 120D dot-matrix printer Panasonic KXP1092 dot-matrix printer Large supply of blank 5 1/4" disks. TERMS AND CONDITIONS -------------------- Make an offer. I would prefer to send it all out as one huge load or several large ones, but will consider other proposals. All items are available as is, without warranty. I've powered up the systems to make sure they work. Most other stuff should (and did the last time I used it) work unless I've made a note to the contrary. It would be a real pain to try and install and test it all again now, so I'm not. Shipping from southern New Hampshire is *your* responsibility, though I could probably be persuaded to deliver within a reasonable driving distance (an hour or less). :-) There's a lot here.... if someone wants the works (my first choice), it's probably enough for a small pallet load. You got questions? Just ask. Please respond directly to victor9000us@yahoo.com-- not to the mailing list. __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! GeoCities - quick and easy web site hosting, just $8.95/month. http://geocities.yahoo.com/ps/info1 From dmabry at mich.com Sun Nov 25 17:16:26 2001 From: dmabry at mich.com (Dave Mabry) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:23:49 2005 Subject: Dead Intel MDS controller board References: Message-ID: <3C017BCA.FCFB3393@mich.com> Tony and whoever might be interested in this problem... Fortunately I was able to borrow a scope and I have scoped the signal DATA SR STB. It starts up the first time the diskette is accessed and stays on from then on as long as power is applied to the system. It is a square wave with a period of 1900ns (1.9us). It is +5v for 1100ns and 0v for 800ns. The trimpot (the only one on the board) will vary this slightly. Also, that signal does not change that I can see on the scope when the drive head is loaded and a read initiated. Before I started the scoping, I put a small program into ram that would start a read operation and let me see the error bits returned. It was a 0Ah, which means, if I am interpreting it correctly, Address error and CRC error. Let me know what you think I should check next, if you still have time to assist. Thanks, Dave Tony Duell wrote: > > > > > I have that manual (98-422A) and that is the correct one for the > > SBC-202. I think Intel just gave the 202 name to that board set when it > > OK, then we're both looking at the same manual. > > > was bought for integration into an application. > > > > I am anxious to try to troubleshoot this, but I'm not sure how to go > > about it. So far all I have tried to boot the MDS. It does select the > > correct drive and load the head. After a pause of about one second the > > We know the microcode, etc, is working correctly as that's on the other > board. And this would seem to imply that the disk controller is talking > to the Multibus (at least well enough to receive commands) and that the > drive control logic on the interface board is working correctly. > > > Interrupt 2 light (on the cpu board, so it is coming from the multibus) > > lights solid and the boot code in the MDS system rom returns a > > Interrupts are generated by the channel board, really. The interrupt > line driver is on the interface board (A55/b, '125), so that's working > correctly. Yes, the standard INT/ line is number 2. > > > nondescriptive error message "disk error". When it works correctly (two > > weeks ago) the interrupt 2 light would pulse (very lightly illuminate) > > during read. Now it comes on solid. I believe that Int2 is the signal > > from the controller boards signifying end of operation. > > Well, an interrupt from the controller, anyway. > > > I just read through the manual tonight, but I still need help with a > > direction for shooting it. I was thinking that I should code a simple > > routine (in hex since that is all I can think of to load memory in this > > machine) to try to read somewhere on the disk and see what error code is > > returned. I would guess it will be CRC error. > > I am not so sure. Particularly not if the PLL isn't locking. It might > never find an address mark or something like that. > > Read section 2.4 carefully. In particular the last section about the > extra error codes (several bits set together). And see what you get. > > If you have a 'scope or logic analyser (and I think you're going to need > one), the first signal I'd look at would be the SR STB signals (5/B1 to > use Intel's notation for finding them on the schematics). From what I > understand, this should be a clock waveform at twice the data rate, from > the crystal oscillator when not actually reading from the disk and locked > to the incoming data stream when reading. Make sure it doesn't disappear > or go off-frequency when trying to read a disk. > > > Note to list: Should we take this private or do you all want to see it? > > I'm happy for it to remain on-list. It's certainly on-topic, and > doubtless somebody else will find it interesting/useful. > > -tony -- Dave Mabry dmabry@mich.com Dossin Museum Underwater Research Team NACD #2093 From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun Nov 25 18:26:43 2001 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:23:49 2005 Subject: Dead Intel MDS controller board In-Reply-To: <3C017BCA.FCFB3393@mich.com> from "Dave Mabry" at Nov 25, 1 06:16:26 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1696 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20011126/eaac39c7/attachment.ksh From schiska at mindspring.com Sun Nov 25 20:02:37 2001 From: schiska at mindspring.com (SchiskaMeister) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:23:49 2005 Subject: Central Point option floppy controller Message-ID: <001b01c1761e$89e817b0$19bd343f@artihome> I just found a thread about this old card and was wondering if anyone knows where I can purchase one or of a forum where I might be able to make this sort of request. I apologize if this is out of context for this forum. Thank you. Ray... -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20011125/bf03f855/attachment.html From schiska at mindspring.com Sun Nov 25 20:10:07 2001 From: schiska at mindspring.com (SchiskaMeister) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:23:49 2005 Subject: 360k versus 1.2Mb floppy drives... Message-ID: <000801c1761f$791186a0$19bd343f@artihome> Does anyone know if there is a way to tell which is which by looking at the drive?. FTM the 720k vs 1.44Mb 3 1/2" drives. Thanks in advance... R.. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20011125/5de36da2/attachment.html From donm at cts.com Sun Nov 25 23:51:26 2001 From: donm at cts.com (Don Maslin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:23:49 2005 Subject: 360k versus 1.2Mb floppy drives... In-Reply-To: <000801c1761f$791186a0$19bd343f@artihome> Message-ID: On Sun, 25 Nov 2001, SchiskaMeister wrote: > Does anyone know if there is a way to tell which is which by looking > at the drive?. FTM the 720k vs 1.44Mb 3 1/2" drives. Thanks in > advance... > > R.. There are not usually obvious differences between a 360k abd a 1.2mb drive. The best method is to check make/model number on: http://theref.aquascape.com which has a fairly complete floppy drive listing. Alternatively, do a web search for THEREF43.ZIP and download it. It covers rather more than just floppies. WRT 720k and 1.44mb, my usual check is to prop open the door and look into the innards of the drive. On the `floor' on the left, there are normally two small vertical pins present. They are switch actuators for disk present and for writeprotect. If there is a similar pin on the `floor' on the right it is a 1.44mb drive. - don From rcini at optonline.net Sun Nov 25 21:06:08 2001 From: rcini at optonline.net (Richard A. Cini, Jr.) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:23:49 2005 Subject: Inaccessible CP/M programs in Altair32 Message-ID: Hi: I'm making progress with using CP/M under Altair32, but I have one newbie question since I don't have much experience with CP/M. The disk image I have shows one program in the directory, STAT.COM. Running STAT tells me that there is about 167k free (on a 330k disk). Looking at the disk image file with a hex file editor reveals that there's more programs on the disk. I seem to remember something about password protection on a CP/M disk. How do I get around this so that I can see what else is on this image? Thanks. Rich Rich Cini Collector of classic computers Build Master for the Altair32 Emulation Project Web site: http://highgate.comm.sfu.ca/~rcini/classiccmp/ /************************************************************/ From frustum at pacbell.net Sun Nov 25 23:29:30 2001 From: frustum at pacbell.net (Jim Battle) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:23:49 2005 Subject: Inaccessible CP/M programs in Altair32 In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <4.3.2.7.0.20011125212646.00bb3b30@postoffice.pacbell.net> At 10:06 PM 11/25/01 -0500, you wrote: >Hi: > > I'm making progress with using CP/M under Altair32, but I have > one newbie >question since I don't have much experience with CP/M. > > The disk image I have shows one program in the directory, > STAT.COM. Running >STAT tells me that there is about 167k free (on a 330k disk). Looking at the >disk image file with a hex file editor reveals that there's more programs on >the disk. > > I seem to remember something about password protection on a CP/M > disk. How >do I get around this so that I can see what else is on this image? It isn't password protection. Files can be marked as "system" files, so that they don't show up when you do a "DIR". I think "STAT *.* $DIR" will revert all hidden files back to normal. ----- Jim Battle == frustum@pacbell.net From george at racsys.rt.rain.com Mon Nov 26 00:18:09 2001 From: george at racsys.rt.rain.com (George Leo Rachor Jr.) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:23:49 2005 Subject: Inaccessible CP/M programs in Altair32 In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.0.20011125212646.00bb3b30@postoffice.pacbell.net> Message-ID: I'm not an expert in Altair CP/M but I do remember one other aspect. It wasn't password protection but I do remember the concept of differnt user #'s. It wasn't complicated but somthing like user #'s 1-8. Once you were that user I seem to remember only the files belonging to that user showing up... Might be a dead end... Just a thought... George Rachor ========================================================= George L. Rachor Jr. george@rachors.com Hillsboro, Oregon http://rachors.com United States of America Amateur Radio : KD7DCX On Sun, 25 Nov 2001, Jim Battle wrote: > At 10:06 PM 11/25/01 -0500, you wrote: > >Hi: > > > > I'm making progress with using CP/M under Altair32, but I have > > one newbie > >question since I don't have much experience with CP/M. > > > > The disk image I have shows one program in the directory, > > STAT.COM. Running > >STAT tells me that there is about 167k free (on a 330k disk). Looking at the > >disk image file with a hex file editor reveals that there's more programs on > >the disk. > > > > I seem to remember something about password protection on a CP/M > > disk. How > >do I get around this so that I can see what else is on this image? > > It isn't password protection. Files can be marked as "system" files, so > that they don't show up when you do a "DIR". I think "STAT *.* $DIR" will > revert all hidden files back to normal. > > ----- > Jim Battle == frustum@pacbell.net > > From frustum at pacbell.net Mon Nov 26 00:51:40 2001 From: frustum at pacbell.net (Jim Battle) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:23:49 2005 Subject: Inaccessible CP/M programs in Altair32 In-Reply-To: References: <4.3.2.7.0.20011125212646.00bb3b30@postoffice.pacbell.net> Message-ID: <4.3.2.7.0.20011125224715.00bbee00@postoffice.pacbell.net> Good point -- to flesh it out a bit more, there could be up to 16 different "user" areas on the disk, which go from 0 to 15. Files were tagged with a nibble indicating which user area the file belonged to. To change user areas, type: USER 1 to change to user area 1. By default you are in user 0. Changing to each user area and typing "dir" to see if anything is there is a drag. To find out which, if any, user areas have active files, type: STAT USR: and it responds with something like: Active User: 0 Active Files: 0 1 to indicate you are currently in user 0 area and that user areas 0 and 1 have files in them. (confirmed on *my* CP/M emulator!) At 10:18 PM 11/25/01 -0800, you wrote: >I'm not an expert in Altair CP/M but I do remember one other aspect. It >wasn't password protection but I do remember the concept of differnt user >#'s. It wasn't complicated but somthing like user #'s 1-8. Once you >were that user I seem to remember only the files belonging to that user >showing up... > >Might be a dead end... Just a thought... > >George Rachor > >========================================================= >George L. Rachor Jr. george@rachors.com >Hillsboro, Oregon http://rachors.com >United States of America Amateur Radio : KD7DCX > >On Sun, 25 Nov 2001, Jim Battle wrote: > > > At 10:06 PM 11/25/01 -0500, you wrote: > > >Hi: > > > > > > I'm making progress with using CP/M under Altair32, but I have > > > one newbie > > >question since I don't have much experience with CP/M. > > > > > > The disk image I have shows one program in the directory, > > > STAT.COM. Running > > >STAT tells me that there is about 167k free (on a 330k disk). Looking > at the > > >disk image file with a hex file editor reveals that there's more > programs on > > >the disk. > > > > > > I seem to remember something about password protection on a CP/M > > > disk. How > > >do I get around this so that I can see what else is on this image? > > > > It isn't password protection. Files can be marked as "system" files, so > > that they don't show up when you do a "DIR". I think "STAT *.* $DIR" will > > revert all hidden files back to normal. > > > > ----- > > Jim Battle == frustum@pacbell.net > > > > ----- Jim Battle == frustum@pacbell.net From sipke at wxs.nl Mon Nov 26 01:33:02 2001 From: sipke at wxs.nl (Sipke de Wal) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:23:49 2005 Subject: Inaccessible CP/M programs in Altair32 References: <4.3.2.7.0.20011125212646.00bb3b30@postoffice.pacbell.net> <4.3.2.7.0.20011125224715.00bbee00@postoffice.pacbell.net> Message-ID: <001301c1764c$95dc0120$030101ac@boll.casema.net> ZCPR2 & 3 (CP/M extensions) even allowed for 32 USER levels (0 .. 31) Sipke de Wal ------------------------------------------------- http://xgistor.ath.cx ------------------------------------------------- ----- Original Message ----- From: Jim Battle To: Sent: Monday, November 26, 2001 7:51 AM Subject: Re: Inaccessible CP/M programs in Altair32 > Good point -- > > to flesh it out a bit more, there could be up to 16 different "user" areas > on the disk, which go from 0 to 15. Files were tagged with a nibble > indicating which user area the file belonged to. > > To change user areas, type: > > USER 1 > > to change to user area 1. By default you are in user 0. Changing to each > user area and typing "dir" to see if anything is there is a drag. To find > out which, if any, user areas have active files, type: > > STAT USR: > > and it responds with something like: > > Active User: 0 > Active Files: 0 1 > > to indicate you are currently in user 0 area and that user areas 0 and 1 > have files in them. > (confirmed on *my* CP/M emulator!) > > > At 10:18 PM 11/25/01 -0800, you wrote: > >I'm not an expert in Altair CP/M but I do remember one other aspect. It > >wasn't password protection but I do remember the concept of differnt user > >#'s. It wasn't complicated but somthing like user #'s 1-8. Once you > >were that user I seem to remember only the files belonging to that user > >showing up... > > > >Might be a dead end... Just a thought... > > > >George Rachor > > > >========================================================= > >George L. Rachor Jr. george@rachors.com > >Hillsboro, Oregon http://rachors.com > >United States of America Amateur Radio : KD7DCX > > > >On Sun, 25 Nov 2001, Jim Battle wrote: > > > > > At 10:06 PM 11/25/01 -0500, you wrote: > > > >Hi: > > > > > > > > I'm making progress with using CP/M under Altair32, but I have > > > > one newbie > > > >question since I don't have much experience with CP/M. > > > > > > > > The disk image I have shows one program in the directory, > > > > STAT.COM. Running > > > >STAT tells me that there is about 167k free (on a 330k disk). Looking > > at the > > > >disk image file with a hex file editor reveals that there's more > > programs on > > > >the disk. > > > > > > > > I seem to remember something about password protection on a CP/M > > > > disk. How > > > >do I get around this so that I can see what else is on this image? > > > > > > It isn't password protection. Files can be marked as "system" files, so > > > that they don't show up when you do a "DIR". I think "STAT *.* $DIR" will > > > revert all hidden files back to normal. > > > > > > ----- > > > Jim Battle == frustum@pacbell.net > > > > > > > > ----- > Jim Battle == frustum@pacbell.net > From foo at siconic.com Sun Nov 25 22:08:47 2001 From: foo at siconic.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:23:49 2005 Subject: 70's Mattel Handheld Football game... In-Reply-To: <200111240329.WAA27211@wordstock.com> Message-ID: On Fri, 23 Nov 2001, Bryan Pope wrote: > Now speaking of handhelds, does anyone remember playing the handheld > pinball game? I can't think of the name of it right now... Oh yeah. I remember that. But my recollection is as vague as yours because I can't remember any details. Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org From mythtech at Mac.com Sun Nov 25 22:55:19 2001 From: mythtech at Mac.com (Chris) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:23:49 2005 Subject: 70's Mattel Handheld Football game... Message-ID: <200111260455.WAA11408@opal.tseinc.com> >> Now speaking of handhelds, does anyone remember playing the handheld >> pinball game? I can't think of the name of it right now... > >Oh yeah. I remember that. But my recollection is as vague as yours >because I can't remember any details. Wildfire? Black thing with pinball shape and display. I had that (probably still do in my parents basement... we all moved out and abondoned all our junk there... hehehe). I seem to recall mine doesn't work anymore... I think it shorted out when I used an atari 2600 power adaptor to give it DC power. Probably something I can fix these days, just hadn't given it much thought until now. -chris From vcf at vintage.org Mon Nov 26 01:09:45 2001 From: vcf at vintage.org (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:23:50 2005 Subject: Want to be the subject of Christine Finn's next book? Message-ID: Christine Finn, author of _Artifacts: An Archaeologist's Year in Silicon Valley_ (available for sale on Amazon, more information at http://www.artifactsthebook.com/) is starting on a new book that will cover how people use technology in the United States. She would like to profile/interview a collector in every state of the union, including Alaska and Hawaii. Christine says: "I am about to start on a follow up to 'Artifacts: an archaeologists's year in Silicon Valley'. It will also be published by MIT Press, and take a broader look at technology in America. Central to research will be travelling to as many parts of the US as I can - Hawaii and Alaska included - over the next year. However, I do have very limited resources and would be really grateful if any collectors or classic computer enthusiasts could offer me an overnight stay and/or a place for me to get online. More than that, it would give me the chance to meet more of you, and find out about how you feel about technology in its various forms. I can offer a copy of the book and an Artifacts reading/discussion in your locale, if you'd like to arrange it. "If you can help, do please get in touch with me christine.finn@arch.ox.ac.uk". If you would like to be considered, please respond directly to Christine at . Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org * Old computing resources for business and academia at www.VintageTech.com * From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Nov 22 14:31:38 2001 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:23:50 2005 Subject: Mac Restore CDs/Manuals In-Reply-To: from "Tothwolf" at Nov 22, 1 07:17:13 am Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 372 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20011122/d4e884e8/attachment.ksh From edick at idcomm.com Fri Nov 23 09:27:03 2001 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:23:50 2005 Subject: 1771 floppy controller questions References: Message-ID: <002701c17433$4e423340$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> Well, it sounds like it's less likely that you'll break the parts in your tester, but it seems unlikely you'll be able to test the 4116's in it. I got the mistaken impression that you had the HP test-clip type of IC tester, of which I have a few, which require a functional component against which to compare the function of the circuit under test. I've never figured out how these work, since most of the ones I have are already brokent. One of these days ... Dick ----- Original Message ----- From: "Tothwolf" To: Sent: Friday, November 23, 2001 2:21 AM Subject: Re: 1771 floppy controller questions > On Thu, 22 Nov 2001, Richard Erlacher wrote: > > From: "Tony Duell" > > > > > Most (all?) DRAM testers that I've seen test just the chips/simms out of > > > the circuit. It makes sense, since that way they can drive the address > > > lines, RAS/, CAS/, etc and veryify that the RAM works correctly on all > > > locations, etc. > > > > HP made a series of device testers that live on a test clip that you > > plug on in-situ, and if it's designed for one set of supplies, and you > > hook up another, you may not be pleased with the results. I've got a > > few of those out-of-circuit testers, but the one I thing he (Tothwolf) > > is using is one of the type I'm referring to. It would be a shame to > > damage one, as it can test a soldered-in part without first > > unsoldering it. > > The tester set I have is designed for out of circuit use. Both units are > labeled 'ramcheck' and list the manufacturer as Innoventions, Inc. > Houston, TX. The tester supports 64k and 256k according to the label. I > opened up the tester, and found it contains an AMD 8088, a 27C32 eprom, > and a single dram chip, along with a mix of 74LS ttl logic chips. From the > looks of it, I could modify it to support 1024s and likely support older > chips if I design some sort of interface board. The speed checker unit is > designed to be used in-line with the tester (or maybe in circuit?), as it > has a ribbon cable with dip idc header on one end. It has a knob for > voltage selection labeled; Off, 4.5V, 5V, 5.5V, NR. I'm not sure what the > NR stands for, maybe no regulation? The other control is a 16 position > rotary switch (0-15), which is used x10 for speed selection in ns. Its > logic board contains a 7805 regulator, a handful of 74LS ttl, and a few > other chips I'd need to look up in a databook (Possibly a PROM and some > clock generators?) > > -Toth > > From edick at idcomm.com Fri Nov 23 09:29:55 2001 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:23:50 2005 Subject: 1771 floppy controller questions References: Message-ID: <002f01c17433$b42bad80$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> If you need 4116's, just send me your address. I've got more than I'll EVER use, believe me. Dick ----- Original Message ----- From: "Tothwolf" To: Sent: Friday, November 23, 2001 2:55 AM Subject: Re: 1771 floppy controller questions > On Thu, 22 Nov 2001, Tony Duell wrote: > > > > At the time I thought the particular lead might have not been used, and or > > > someone damaged it when installing the chip. I had never seen a chip with > > > > IIRC, the DRAMs in the model 3 are 16K * 1 4116s or similar. All the pins > > are used on these chips. If a pin is missing, then you are going to have > > problems... > > I wonder if it would be worth soldering a new pin to what's left of that > chip's lead? It looked like it had just corroded off, but with no other > signs of moisture, I was kinda puzzled. > > > > Teflon seems to be very very tough compared to whatever kind of plastic > > > they used in those older cables. What kind of current goes thru these > > > cables? Would it be possible to use one of the more flexible carbon types > > > instead of tin plated copper? > > > > In the Model 3/4 it's just logic level signals. There's a separate power > > connector on the disk controller board. But I suspect that carbon-cable > > would have too high a resistance to be reliable (if nothing else it's > > going to delay the signals somewhat due to the RC time constant of the > > cable and the input capacitance of the chips on the board). Probably not > > a good idea. > > Sounds like I may have to experiment a little once I get some clear bench > space ;) > > > > Could also use an SIL amp/berg connector and crimp pins to ribbon cable. > > > Might look a little more original, but it would take allot more work to > > > assemble then pressing on an IDC connector. > > > > It's a lot slower to assemble, and it's actually slightly taller. Also, > > those SIL Berg/Amp/Molex connectors are difficult to find in >10 way > > sizes (yes, they're made, but nobody seems to stock them). I prefer to > > use parts I can get in 1-off quantities :-) > > I can often find them in large sizes, and use an a sharp X-acto to trim > them to whatever pin count I need. [If anyone decides to try this, be very > very careful, those blades are extremely sharp, and will cut thru the > connector slow at first, then slice thru the remaining material very > fast.] The leftovers can be recycled for even shorter connectors. This > would not be economical for more then a few dozen connectors however. > > > > Well, if this is the machine that would not even turn on, that could > > > explain something...I know the factory seals had already been broken. I > > > > Argh!. If the sound board has been plugged into the PSU output there's no > > way of knowing what else has been misconnected and what damage has been > > done. That's one reason to give a machine a complete visual inspection > > before applying power, hoping that if things are totally misconnected > > that the previous owner didn't power the machine up like that (some hope, > > I know). > > I think that machine is the model 4, which I think came from a surplus > dealer. There is no way of knowing what all someone tried to do to this > thing before I bought it. The model 3 came from a thrift shop, and seemed > to be in much better overall shape, and may have still had its factory > seals intact. > > -Toth > > From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Nov 23 16:01:38 2001 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:23:50 2005 Subject: 1771 floppy controller questions In-Reply-To: from "Tothwolf" at Nov 23, 1 03:55:50 am Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 2126 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20011123/268877d4/attachment.ksh From donm at cts.com Fri Nov 23 18:02:29 2001 From: donm at cts.com (Don Maslin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:23:50 2005 Subject: 1771 floppy controller questions In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Fri, 23 Nov 2001, Tothwolf wrote: > On Thu, 22 Nov 2001, Tony Duell wrote: > > > > At the time I thought the particular lead might have not been used, and or > > > someone damaged it when installing the chip. I had never seen a chip with > > > > IIRC, the DRAMs in the model 3 are 16K * 1 4116s or similar. All the pins > > are used on these chips. If a pin is missing, then you are going to have > > problems... > > I wonder if it would be worth soldering a new pin to what's left of that > chip's lead? It looked like it had just corroded off, but with no other > signs of moisture, I was kinda puzzled. Why not? You might want to checkout the socket pretty thoroughly, though. - don From erd_6502 at yahoo.com Mon Nov 26 15:21:21 2001 From: erd_6502 at yahoo.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:23:50 2005 Subject: 1771 floppy controller questions In-Reply-To: <003a01c17147$28d5c700$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> Message-ID: <20011126212121.12835.qmail@web20109.mail.yahoo.com> --- Richard Erlacher wrote: > You can get one for cheap if you go down to the thrift store and buy an > old TRS-80. That will cost less than a new WD1771, I'd bet. I'll _trade_ you an old TRS-80 for a WD1771. I haven't seen non-Commodore/Apple/IBM-compatible computers* at the thrift stores in a long, long time. I suspect they don't bother setting them out and just trash them. -ethan * - Not even Atari or Coleco or any of the once-common home machines. __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! GeoCities - quick and easy web site hosting, just $8.95/month. http://geocities.yahoo.com/ps/info1 From edick at idcomm.com Mon Nov 26 16:49:26 2001 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:23:50 2005 Subject: 1771 floppy controller questions References: <20011126212121.12835.qmail@web20109.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <001f01c176cc$99f10500$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> Actually, my initial comment was that I'd happily junk a Coco in order to get a WD1773. I've got plenty of 1771's, and a few 179x's in my parts stock. If I needed a 1771, unlikely, but if it happened, I'd simply unplug one from an old "Big Board" SBC. I've got an upgrade to a 179x for them anyway. It's been a while since I last saw a Coco, and now that I know there's a 1773 in them, I'll snag one first chance I get. I've still got TRS-80 doc's lying about from back in the late '70's, but I've never owned a TRS-80. Dick ----- Original Message ----- From: "Ethan Dicks" To: Sent: Monday, November 26, 2001 2:21 PM Subject: Re: 1771 floppy controller questions > > --- Richard Erlacher wrote: > > You can get one for cheap if you go down to the thrift store and buy an > > old TRS-80. That will cost less than a new WD1771, I'd bet. > > I'll _trade_ you an old TRS-80 for a WD1771. I haven't seen > non-Commodore/Apple/IBM-compatible computers* at the thrift stores > in a long, long time. I suspect they don't bother setting them out > and just trash them. > > -ethan > > * - Not even Atari or Coleco or any of the once-common home machines. > > > > __________________________________________________ > Do You Yahoo!? > Yahoo! GeoCities - quick and easy web site hosting, just $8.95/month. > http://geocities.yahoo.com/ps/info1 > > From ghldbrd at ccp.com Sun Nov 25 16:33:42 2001 From: ghldbrd at ccp.com (Gary Hildebrand) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:23:50 2005 Subject: Adam Computer References: <4.3.2.7.2.20011125134903.00a988e0@pop3.norton.antivirus> Message-ID: <3C0171C6.8964C71@ccp.com> Gene Ehrich wrote: > > Does anybody have any idea of the value of a brand new in boxes Adam computer? Not much . . . except as a curiosity. I did you you should have been able to run cp/m on it. The trick is getting formatted casette tapes. Gary Hildebrand From csmith at amdocs.com Mon Nov 26 11:40:05 2001 From: csmith at amdocs.com (Christopher Smith) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:23:50 2005 Subject: Adam Computer Message-ID: <3B55D7F383B0D31197D9009027541CBF1170DEC6@cmiexch1.cmi.itds.com> -----Original Message----- From: SUPRDAVE@aol.com [mailto:SUPRDAVE@aol.com] > In a message dated 11/25/2001 2:02:51 PM Eastern Standard Time, gehrich@tampabay.rr.com writes: >> Does anybody have any idea of the value of a brand new in boxes Adam computer? > like the old saying goes, it's worth whatever someone will pay for it. How many cassette drives do they have? Personally, I'd be willing to pay something like $20 us for one, plus shipping. You may or may not be able to get more elsewhere. Contact me by mail if you're selling. ;) I have a CPU box, and a keyboard. It would be worth that money to me so that I could get an original power supply and cables. Regards, Chris Christopher Smith, Perl Developer Amdocs - Champaign, IL /usr/bin/perl -e ' print((~"\x95\xc4\xe3"^"Just Another Perl Hacker.")."\x08!\n"); ' From erd_6502 at yahoo.com Mon Nov 26 14:49:29 2001 From: erd_6502 at yahoo.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:23:50 2005 Subject: Adam Computer In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20011126204929.10754.qmail@web20106.mail.yahoo.com> --- Sellam Ismail wrote: > On Sun, 25 Nov 2001, Gene Ehrich wrote: > > > Does anybody have any idea of the value of a brand new in boxes Adam > > computer? > > From "free" to $infinity. Depends on who's buying. ?DIVIDE BY ZERO ERROR READY. -ethan __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! GeoCities - quick and easy web site hosting, just $8.95/month. http://geocities.yahoo.com/ps/info1 From ghldbrd at ccp.com Sun Nov 25 16:37:04 2001 From: ghldbrd at ccp.com (Gary Hildebrand) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:23:50 2005 Subject: FS: Victor Technologies Computers, Software, Documentation References: <20011125202242.55847.qmail@web21109.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <3C017290.EEF9B7A0@ccp.com> Intersting, I have a Victor printer, big as a horse, kinda neat, has parallel/series/IEE488 interfaces on it. Works fine except for . . no ribbons available for it. Is that part of the package?? Gary Hildebrand Brad Chase wrote: > > Please respond directly to victor9000us@yahoo.com > > The Victor 9000 was an impressive early generation > 808x based PC designed by Chuck Peddle. With a (for > the time) high resolution green screen no glare > monitor, large 1.2mb 5 1/4" floppies, and built-in > sound capabilities, it was an excellent machine. > Indeed, Victor scored many early sales wins with large > companies such as Ford Motor Cars. > > I have a considerable stash of Victor Technologies > equipment, software, and documentation that I must > part with. Read on... > > Victor Technologies Vicki Portable System > ----------------------------------------- > > Rare Victor 9000 compatible portable (well, luggable, > though smaller and lighter than the original Compaqs) > from the early 1980s. This system has dual 1.2 mb 5 > 1/4" floppy drives, 640KB of memory, keyboard, > built-in small green screen (8" or so I think), and > built-in serial and parallel ports. (Floppies are NOT > PC/AT compatible, as Victors use a variable speed > floppy system to achieve 1.2mb.) System is in full > working order (I booted it yesterday to make sure), > and comes with MS-DOS 2.11 and MS-DOS 3.1 for Vicki > and diagnostics diskettes. > > Victor 9000 System with PlusPC IBM Compatibility Kit > ---------------------------------------------------- > > When Victor realized that PCs and PC clones were going > to become the standard, they created the PlusPC kit to > retrofit Victor 9000s to become PC compatible. PlusPC > systems can boot in either "V" mode, which is fully > Victor compatible or "I" mode which is fully PC > compatible (with the exception of not being able to > format 360K diskettes). System can read and write both > PC 360K diskettes and Victor 640K single side or 1.2mb > double side diskettes. > > This Victor 9000 system has had the PlusPC kit > installed. It is a dual double-sided floppy system > (the PlusPC was installable only on double sided > floppy machines) with 512K of RAM and built in serial > and parallel ports. It comes with power cables, MS-DOS > for PlusPC, MS-DOS for Victor 9000, monitor, keyboard, > and manuals. The system works-- I booted it yesterday. > Also included are a set of customer built, foam lined, > hard sided carrying cases for the system. I also think > I have the original controller board that will let you > turn this back into a pure Victor 9000-- if I have it, > I'll include it with the system. > > Victor 9000 Networking Equipment > -------------------------------- > > I have a few (4 I think) Victor 9000 Network cards. I > also have the network interface boxes, some cabling, > software for DOS 1.25 and 2.11, documentation, and > device driver software. The hardware was all taken > from a working network a few years ago, and I believe > it all works, but I won't promise. Just about > guaranteed to be incompatible with any other network > hardware. ;-) > > Other Victor 9000 Hardware > -------------------------- > > 1 PlusPC Kit, not installed in a system, with manuals > still in shrink wrap. > > 2 or 3 Victor 9000 memory boards from various > manufacturers. May not work (I'm sure one doesn't), > but also full of memory chips. > > 1 Victor clock card. May or may not work. > > Miniscribe III hard disk. May or may not work. > > Victor 9000 Software and Tool Kits > ---------------------------------- > > MS-DOS 1.25 for Victor 9000 > > MS-DOS 2.11 for Victor 9000 > > MS-DOS 3.1 for Victor 9000 > > CP/M-86 for Victor 9000 > > Victor Hard Disk Tool Kit > > Victor Hard Disk Tool Kit II > > Victor Graphics Tool Kit > > Victor Graphics Tool Kit II > > Victor Programmers Tool Kit > > Victor Audio Tool Kit with audio amplifier card > (Allows voice recording. The victors have a built in > voice playback capability.) > > Victor CP/M-80 system with Z-80 card. Yep, you really > can run Z-80 programs on a Victor. > > Assorted Victor diagnostic disks > > Word Perfect 4.x (DOS version) for Victor 9000 with > manuals > > Complete VictorPULSE public domain software library- > over 70 disks of software, information, and > documentation for Victor 9000s. > > Write Crane RAM disk for Victor 9000 > > White Crane Brooklyn bridge (PC transfer software) for > Victor 9000 > > Fancy Font (scalable fonts from dot matrix printers) > for Victor 9000 > > Victor Documentation > -------------------- > > Victor Hardware Reference Manual > > Victor Supplementary Hardware Reference Manual (This > is also available in electronic form as one of the > disks in the public domain software set.) > > Victor Field Service Bulletins > > Valid Technologies Memory Board manual & diagnostics > > Pretty complete set of Channel 9000 (Victor User > Group) newsletters > > Odds and Ends > ------------- > > US Robotics Courier 2400 (external) modem. (Yes, there > is communication software in all that software above-- > it's in with the public domain stuff. No, it won't do > TCP/IP.) > > US Robotics Sportster 9600 (external) modem > > Citizen 120D dot-matrix printer > > Panasonic KXP1092 dot-matrix printer > > Large supply of blank 5 1/4" disks. > > TERMS AND CONDITIONS > -------------------- > > Make an offer. I would prefer to send it all out as > one huge load or several large ones, but will consider > other proposals. > > All items are available as is, without warranty. I've > powered up the systems to make sure they work. Most > other stuff should (and did the last time I used it) > work unless I've made a note to the contrary. It would > be a real pain to try and install and test it all > again now, so I'm not. > > Shipping from southern New Hampshire is *your* > responsibility, though I could probably be persuaded > to deliver within a reasonable driving distance (an > hour or less). :-) There's a lot here.... if someone > wants the works (my first choice), it's probably > enough for a small pallet load. > > You got questions? Just ask. > > Please respond directly to victor9000us@yahoo.com-- > not to the mailing list. > > __________________________________________________ > Do You Yahoo!? > Yahoo! GeoCities - quick and easy web site hosting, just $8.95/month. > http://geocities.yahoo.com/ps/info1 From frustum at pacbell.net Mon Nov 26 02:15:50 2001 From: frustum at pacbell.net (Jim Battle) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:23:50 2005 Subject: Inaccessible CP/M programs in Altair32 In-Reply-To: <001301c1764c$95dc0120$030101ac@boll.casema.net> References: <4.3.2.7.0.20011125212646.00bb3b30@postoffice.pacbell.net> <4.3.2.7.0.20011125224715.00bbee00@postoffice.pacbell.net> Message-ID: <4.3.2.7.0.20011126001342.00bacd70@postoffice.pacbell.net> True, but Rich's emulator is of an Altair -- one with an 8080 in it. ZCPR2 & 3 were Z80-only affairs, I believe. I recently picked up Richard Conn's ZCPR book for $10, but I haven't yet had time to do more than page through it quickly. It looks like it was an interesting system; the author was obviously influenced by unix. At 08:33 AM 11/26/01 +0100, Sipke de Wal wrote: >ZCPR2 & 3 (CP/M extensions) even allowed >for 32 USER levels (0 .. 31) > >Sipke de Wal >------------------------------------------------- >http://xgistor.ath.cx >------------------------------------------------- > >----- Original Message ----- >From: Jim Battle >To: >Sent: Monday, November 26, 2001 7:51 AM >Subject: Re: Inaccessible CP/M programs in Altair32 > > > > Good point -- > > > > to flesh it out a bit more, there could be up to 16 different "user" areas > > on the disk, which go from 0 to 15. Files were tagged with a nibble > > indicating which user area the file belonged to. > > > > To change user areas, type: > > > > USER 1 > > > > to change to user area 1. By default you are in user 0. Changing to each > > user area and typing "dir" to see if anything is there is a drag. To find > > out which, if any, user areas have active files, type: > > > > STAT USR: > > > > and it responds with something like: > > > > Active User: 0 > > Active Files: 0 1 > > > > to indicate you are currently in user 0 area and that user areas 0 and 1 > > have files in them. > > (confirmed on *my* CP/M emulator!) > > > > > > At 10:18 PM 11/25/01 -0800, you wrote: > > >I'm not an expert in Altair CP/M but I do remember one other aspect. It > > >wasn't password protection but I do remember the concept of differnt user > > >#'s. It wasn't complicated but somthing like user #'s 1-8. Once you > > >were that user I seem to remember only the files belonging to that user > > >showing up... > > > > > >Might be a dead end... Just a thought... > > > > > >George Rachor > > > > > >========================================================= > > >George L. Rachor Jr. george@rachors.com > > >Hillsboro, Oregon http://rachors.com > > >United States of America Amateur Radio : KD7DCX > > > > > >On Sun, 25 Nov 2001, Jim Battle wrote: > > > > > > > At 10:06 PM 11/25/01 -0500, you wrote: > > > > >Hi: > > > > > > > > > > I'm making progress with using CP/M under Altair32, but I > have > > > > > one newbie > > > > >question since I don't have much experience with CP/M. > > > > > > > > > > The disk image I have shows one program in the directory, > > > > > STAT.COM. Running > > > > >STAT tells me that there is about 167k free (on a 330k disk). Looking > > > at the > > > > >disk image file with a hex file editor reveals that there's more > > > programs on > > > > >the disk. > > > > > > > > > > I seem to remember something about password protection on > a CP/M > > > > > disk. How > > > > >do I get around this so that I can see what else is on this image? > > > > > > > > It isn't password protection. Files can be marked as "system" > files, so > > > > that they don't show up when you do a "DIR". I think "STAT *.* > $DIR" will > > > > revert all hidden files back to normal. > > > > > > > > ----- > > > > Jim Battle == frustum@pacbell.net > > > > > > > > > > > > ----- > > Jim Battle == frustum@pacbell.net > > ----- Jim Battle == frustum@pacbell.net From donm at cts.com Mon Nov 26 15:50:14 2001 From: donm at cts.com (Don Maslin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:23:50 2005 Subject: Inaccessible CP/M programs in Altair32 In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.0.20011126001342.00bacd70@postoffice.pacbell.net> Message-ID: On Mon, 26 Nov 2001, Jim Battle wrote: > True, but Rich's emulator is of an Altair -- one with an 8080 in it. ZCPR2 > & 3 were Z80-only affairs, I believe. If he is running a true emulator, I would presume that he was running CP/M-1.4 would he not? If that is so, is it not true that user areas did not come into play until CP/M-2.x? - don > I recently picked up Richard Conn's ZCPR book for $10, but I haven't yet > had time to do more than page through it quickly. It looks like it was an > interesting system; the author was obviously influenced by unix. > > > At 08:33 AM 11/26/01 +0100, Sipke de Wal wrote: > >ZCPR2 & 3 (CP/M extensions) even allowed > >for 32 USER levels (0 .. 31) > > > >Sipke de Wal > >------------------------------------------------- > >http://xgistor.ath.cx > >------------------------------------------------- > > > >----- Original Message ----- > >From: Jim Battle > >To: > >Sent: Monday, November 26, 2001 7:51 AM > >Subject: Re: Inaccessible CP/M programs in Altair32 > > > > > > > Good point -- > > > > > > to flesh it out a bit more, there could be up to 16 different "user" areas > > > on the disk, which go from 0 to 15. Files were tagged with a nibble > > > indicating which user area the file belonged to. > > > > > > To change user areas, type: > > > > > > USER 1 > > > > > > to change to user area 1. By default you are in user 0. Changing to each > > > user area and typing "dir" to see if anything is there is a drag. To find > > > out which, if any, user areas have active files, type: > > > > > > STAT USR: > > > > > > and it responds with something like: > > > > > > Active User: 0 > > > Active Files: 0 1 > > > > > > to indicate you are currently in user 0 area and that user areas 0 and 1 > > > have files in them. > > > (confirmed on *my* CP/M emulator!) > > > > > > > > > At 10:18 PM 11/25/01 -0800, you wrote: > > > >I'm not an expert in Altair CP/M but I do remember one other aspect. It > > > >wasn't password protection but I do remember the concept of differnt user > > > >#'s. It wasn't complicated but somthing like user #'s 1-8. Once you > > > >were that user I seem to remember only the files belonging to that user > > > >showing up... > > > > > > > >Might be a dead end... Just a thought... > > > > > > > >George Rachor > > > > > > > >========================================================= > > > >George L. Rachor Jr. george@rachors.com > > > >Hillsboro, Oregon http://rachors.com > > > >United States of America Amateur Radio : KD7DCX > > > > > > > >On Sun, 25 Nov 2001, Jim Battle wrote: > > > > > > > > > At 10:06 PM 11/25/01 -0500, you wrote: > > > > > >Hi: > > > > > > > > > > > > I'm making progress with using CP/M under Altair32, but I > > have > > > > > > one newbie > > > > > >question since I don't have much experience with CP/M. > > > > > > > > > > > > The disk image I have shows one program in the directory, > > > > > > STAT.COM. Running > > > > > >STAT tells me that there is about 167k free (on a 330k disk). Looking > > > > at the > > > > > >disk image file with a hex file editor reveals that there's more > > > > programs on > > > > > >the disk. > > > > > > > > > > > > I seem to remember something about password protection on > > a CP/M > > > > > > disk. How > > > > > >do I get around this so that I can see what else is on this image? > > > > > > > > > > It isn't password protection. Files can be marked as "system" > > files, so > > > > > that they don't show up when you do a "DIR". I think "STAT *.* > > $DIR" will > > > > > revert all hidden files back to normal. > > > > > > > > > > ----- > > > > > Jim Battle == frustum@pacbell.net > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ----- > > > Jim Battle == frustum@pacbell.net > > > > > ----- > Jim Battle == frustum@pacbell.net > > From geoffr at zipcon.net Mon Nov 26 05:50:03 2001 From: geoffr at zipcon.net (Geoff Reed) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:23:50 2005 Subject: Inaccessible CP/M programs in Altair32 In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20011126034920.03569e30@mail.zipcon.net> are the other files on different "user" levels? (i forget the term) like if the drive is C, you have C0 C1 C2 C3 C4 C5 C6 C7 and C8 IIRC At 10:06 PM 11/25/01 -0500, you wrote: >Hi: > > I'm making progress with using CP/M under Altair32, but I have > one newbie >question since I don't have much experience with CP/M. > > The disk image I have shows one program in the directory, > STAT.COM. Running >STAT tells me that there is about 167k free (on a 330k disk). Looking at the >disk image file with a hex file editor reveals that there's more programs on >the disk. > > I seem to remember something about password protection on a CP/M > disk. How >do I get around this so that I can see what else is on this image? > > Thanks. > >Rich > >Rich Cini >Collector of classic computers >Build Master for the Altair32 Emulation Project >Web site: http://highgate.comm.sfu.ca/~rcini/classiccmp/ >/************************************************************/ From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Mon Nov 26 07:34:27 2001 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (Allison) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:23:50 2005 Subject: Inaccessible CP/M programs in Altair32 Message-ID: <000e01c1767f$13343fc0$6b7b7b7b@ajp> Zcpr (V1) could be run on 8080 (compiled for) with reduced features. The advantage of this was an enhanced CCP,. There were several other enhanced CCP replacements Xccp being one that could also run on 8080. It was the code efficientcy of the z80 over 8080 that essentially killed the 8080 as many apps could use the Z80 instructions to compact code, sometimes significantly. ZCPR relied on this as did The BDOS replacements (P2dos, Suprbdos, NOVAdos, Z80dos). Allison -----Original Message----- From: Jim Battle To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org Date: Monday, November 26, 2001 3:48 AM Subject: Re: Inaccessible CP/M programs in Altair32 True, but Rich's emulator is of an Altair -- one with an 8080 in it. ZCPR2 & 3 were Z80-only affairs, I believe. I recently picked up Richard Conn's ZCPR book for $10, but I haven't yet had time to do more than page through it quickly. It looks like it was an interesting system; the author was obviously influenced by unix. At 08:33 AM 11/26/01 +0100, Sipke de Wal wrote: >ZCPR2 & 3 (CP/M extensions) even allowed >for 32 USER levels (0 .. 31) > >Sipke de Wal >------------------------------------------------- >http://xgistor.ath.cx >------------------------------------------------- > >----- Original Message ----- >From: Jim Battle >To: >Sent: Monday, November 26, 2001 7:51 AM >Subject: Re: Inaccessible CP/M programs in Altair32 > > > > Good point -- > > > > to flesh it out a bit more, there could be up to 16 different "user" areas > > on the disk, which go from 0 to 15. Files were tagged with a nibble > > indicating which user area the file belonged to. > > > > To change user areas, type: > > > > USER 1 > > > > to change to user area 1. By default you are in user 0. Changing to each > > user area and typing "dir" to see if anything is there is a drag. To find > > out which, if any, user areas have active files, type: > > > > STAT USR: > > > > and it responds with something like: > > > > Active User: 0 > > Active Files: 0 1 > > > > to indicate you are currently in user 0 area and that user areas 0 and 1 > > have files in them. > > (confirmed on *my* CP/M emulator!) > > > > > > At 10:18 PM 11/25/01 -0800, you wrote: > > >I'm not an expert in Altair CP/M but I do remember one other aspect. It > > >wasn't password protection but I do remember the concept of differnt user > > >#'s. It wasn't complicated but somthing like user #'s 1-8. Once you > > >were that user I seem to remember only the files belonging to that user > > >showing up... > > > > > >Might be a dead end... Just a thought... > > > > > >George Rachor > > > > > >========================================================= > > >George L. Rachor Jr. george@rachors.com > > >Hillsboro, Oregon http://rachors.com > > >United States of America Amateur Radio : KD7DCX > > > > > >On Sun, 25 Nov 2001, Jim Battle wrote: > > > > > > > At 10:06 PM 11/25/01 -0500, you wrote: > > > > >Hi: > > > > > > > > > > I'm making progress with using CP/M under Altair32, but I > have > > > > > one newbie > > > > >question since I don't have much experience with CP/M. > > > > > > > > > > The disk image I have shows one program in the directory, > > > > > STAT.COM. Running > > > > >STAT tells me that there is about 167k free (on a 330k disk). Looking > > > at the > > > > >disk image file with a hex file editor reveals that there's more > > > programs on > > > > >the disk. > > > > > > > > > > I seem to remember something about password protection on > a CP/M > > > > > disk. How > > > > >do I get around this so that I can see what else is on this image? > > > > > > > > It isn't password protection. Files can be marked as "system" > files, so > > > > that they don't show up when you do a "DIR". I think "STAT *.* > $DIR" will > > > > revert all hidden files back to normal. > > > > > > > > ----- > > > > Jim Battle == frustum@pacbell.net > > > > > > > > > > > > ----- > > Jim Battle == frustum@pacbell.net > > ----- Jim Battle == frustum@pacbell.net From jfoust at threedee.com Mon Nov 26 07:57:01 2001 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:23:50 2005 Subject: Inaccessible CP/M programs in Altair32 In-Reply-To: <000e01c1767f$13343fc0$6b7b7b7b@ajp> Message-ID: <5.0.0.25.0.20011126075609.01f1e008@pc> When CP/M deleted a file, did it just put a zero at the start of the filename (like DOS), or did it erase the entire field? Perhaps Rich saw deleted files... - John From edick at idcomm.com Mon Nov 26 09:21:00 2001 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:23:50 2005 Subject: Inaccessible CP/M programs in Altair32 References: <5.0.0.25.0.20011126075609.01f1e008@pc> Message-ID: <003a01c1768d$f4929d00$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> IIRC, it put a 0xE5 in the first byte of the directory entry, which, historically, was the IBM "deleted data" designator. Dick ----- Original Message ----- From: "John Foust" To: Sent: Monday, November 26, 2001 6:57 AM Subject: Re: Inaccessible CP/M programs in Altair32 > > When CP/M deleted a file, did it just put a zero > at the start of the filename (like DOS), or did it erase the > entire field? Perhaps Rich saw deleted files... > > - John > > From donm at cts.com Mon Nov 26 16:04:48 2001 From: donm at cts.com (Don Maslin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:23:50 2005 Subject: Inaccessible CP/M programs in Altair32 In-Reply-To: <5.0.0.25.0.20011126075609.01f1e008@pc> Message-ID: On Mon, 26 Nov 2001, John Foust wrote: > > When CP/M deleted a file, did it just put a zero > at the start of the filename (like DOS), or did it erase the > entire field? Perhaps Rich saw deleted files... > > - John No, it put an 0E5H at the start. A `00' meant that it was in the User 0 area. - don From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Mon Nov 26 07:46:27 2001 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (Allison) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:23:50 2005 Subject: Inaccessible CP/M programs in Altair32 Message-ID: <000001c17681$6cd5e360$6b7b7b7b@ajp> Correct save for CP/M only used 0-15 for the V2.x and ZCPR extended this to 0-31. The areas were not protected directly from each other but were logically seperate. It made file management easier on a logical volutme without a heirarchial (non flat) directory structure. FYI: the byte used to carry user is the 0th of the 32 bytes in a directory entry. Values (byte) 0E5h, 0FFh, 0FEh are reserved for erased(e5), deleted(Fx). To add to this the high order bits of the file name 8.3 are reserved for control/ Those bits control RO, system(invisible) and other status items. All file names were 7bit ascii. ZCPR and other utility programs extended and used those bits for things like archive status abd public files(accessable from any user #). Allison -----Original Message----- From: George Leo Rachor Jr. To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org Date: Monday, November 26, 2001 1:45 AM Subject: Re: Inaccessible CP/M programs in Altair32 >I'm not an expert in Altair CP/M but I do remember one other aspect. It >wasn't password protection but I do remember the concept of differnt user >#'s. It wasn't complicated but somthing like user #'s 1-8. Once you >were that user I seem to remember only the files belonging to that user >showing up... > >Might be a dead end... Just a thought... > >George Rachor > >========================================================= >George L. Rachor Jr. george@rachors.com >Hillsboro, Oregon http://rachors.com >United States of America Amateur Radio : KD7DCX > >On Sun, 25 Nov 2001, Jim Battle wrote: > >> At 10:06 PM 11/25/01 -0500, you wrote: >> >Hi: >> > >> > I'm making progress with using CP/M under Altair32, but I have >> > one newbie >> >question since I don't have much experience with CP/M. >> > >> > The disk image I have shows one program in the directory, >> > STAT.COM. Running >> >STAT tells me that there is about 167k free (on a 330k disk). Looking at the >> >disk image file with a hex file editor reveals that there's more programs on >> >the disk. >> > >> > I seem to remember something about password protection on a CP/M >> > disk. How >> >do I get around this so that I can see what else is on this image? >> >> It isn't password protection. Files can be marked as "system" files, so >> that they don't show up when you do a "DIR". I think "STAT *.* $DIR" will >> revert all hidden files back to normal. >> >> ----- >> Jim Battle == frustum@pacbell.net >> >> > > From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Mon Nov 26 09:11:11 2001 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (Allison) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:23:50 2005 Subject: Inaccessible CP/M programs in Altair32 Message-ID: <000a01c1768c$9aa3a740$6b7b7b7b@ajp> CP/M marks a file delete by changing the first byte of the directory record with E5h to replace a value of 00 to less than 040h. It also does so for every file extent for that file in the directory. A completely empty directory by default contained the E5h mark as formatters back tehn used that as the data fill on a freshly formatted disk. Allison -----Original Message----- From: John Foust To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org Date: Monday, November 26, 2001 9:30 AM Subject: Re: Inaccessible CP/M programs in Altair32 > >When CP/M deleted a file, did it just put a zero >at the start of the filename (like DOS), or did it erase the >entire field? Perhaps Rich saw deleted files... > >- John > > From Innfogra at aol.com Mon Nov 26 03:12:13 2001 From: Innfogra at aol.com (Innfogra@aol.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:23:50 2005 Subject: Qbus & Unibus cards avalable, DRV-11 & RX01 & RX02 disk controllers & more Message-ID: <48.24b4173.2933616d@aol.com> Hi; I have posted the rest of the cards, that listmembers did not speak for under my eBay user name Innfosale. Most are cheap, starting at $4.00 Here is a URL: http://cgi6.ebay.com/aw-cgi/eBayISAPI.dll?MfcISAPICommand=ViewListedItems& userid=Innfosale&include=0&since=-1&sort=3&rows=50 I will ship internationally. The Global Priority envelope is $10 and will hold a dual width card. Air Mail is a little cheaper for several cards. Paxton Astoria, OR From Antonio.Carlini at riverstonenet.com Mon Nov 26 04:32:31 2001 From: Antonio.Carlini at riverstonenet.com (Carlini, Antonio) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:23:50 2005 Subject: SMC HDC9224 datasheet / pinout Message-ID: <3820E2042B6ED5118DC200D0B78EDC4706624E@exc-reo1> > Anyone know where there is a scanned or web version of the SMC HDC9224 > data sheet and pinout? Try a search on http://www.freetradezone.com for something containing hdc9224 and you'll find the datasheet (four times). The App Notes both look useful too. Note - freetradezone is about to stop being free, so don't hang about! Antonio arcarlini@iee.org From cpg at aladdin.de Mon Nov 26 04:58:21 2001 From: cpg at aladdin.de (cpg@aladdin.de) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:23:50 2005 Subject: where are the ml archives for Oct/Nov? Message-ID: Hi, I'm looking on the web page, but the archives end in September. I deleted some messages of today/yesterday by mistake.... regards, chris ************************************************************************************************** The contents of this email and any attachments are confidential. It is intended for the named recipient(s) only. If you have received this email in error please notify the system manager or the sender immediately and do not disclose the contents to any one or make copies. ** eSafe AKS_MUC scanned this email for viruses, vandals and malicious content ** ************************************************************************************************** From bpope at wordstock.com Mon Nov 26 09:02:32 2001 From: bpope at wordstock.com (Bryan Pope) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:23:50 2005 Subject: 70's Mattel Handheld Football game... In-Reply-To: <200111260455.WAA11408@opal.tseinc.com> from "Chris" at Nov 25, 01 11:55:19 pm Message-ID: <200111261502.KAA05934@wordstock.com> > > >> Now speaking of handhelds, does anyone remember playing the handheld > >> pinball game? I can't think of the name of it right now... > > > >Oh yeah. I remember that. But my recollection is as vague as yours > >because I can't remember any details. > > Wildfire? Black thing with pinball shape and display. I had that > (probably still do in my parents basement... we all moved out and > abondoned all our junk there... hehehe). I seem to recall mine doesn't > work anymore... I think it shorted out when I used an atari 2600 power > adaptor to give it DC power. Probably something I can fix these days, > just hadn't given it much thought until now. > That is the name. And mine is in the same place... Along with my TRON handheld. :) Bryan From csmith at amdocs.com Mon Nov 26 10:30:50 2001 From: csmith at amdocs.com (Christopher Smith) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:23:50 2005 Subject: Lisa/UnixPC(Was: Say it ain't so, Joe!) Message-ID: <3B55D7F383B0D31197D9009027541CBF1170DEC3@cmiexch1.cmi.itds.com> > -----Original Message----- > From: Mike [mailto:dogas@bellsouth.net] > finally being shuffled here. It was an adventure over miles > with a car on > the verge of catrastrophe, filled to the brim. Anyway, > here's my recent > 'new finds' list... [snip] > Apple Lisa w/widget&software & Macintosh Portable Wonderful computers. I've been working on restoring one, myself. Need a new cable for the internal HD (Or at least a new connector to plug into the HD port) Mine is a conglomeration of Mac XL (the newer model that wasn't compatible with Lisa OS) and Lisa parts. I believe the Lisa IO board is toasted, so that came from the XL (Which was functional but physically trashed) Incidentally, please let me know if you find a way to make a bootable backup of Lisa OS or Macworks. :) (Not that I'll be backing Macworks up until I fix the internal drive cable) [snip] > AT&T UnixPC and hd drive and software These are great. I picked up one of these from a university I used to attend. It was about to get trashed, and somebody I knew at the time picked it up along with the seven or so others that were going out of style. Software and everything. I managed to get the SVR3.0 development kit working with the R3.5 OS that I've got. It's pretty functional at this point. Since then, I've located a brand new one at a local computer store (really), and acquired that for my SO. We've even still got the original box. :) She has since gotten some original manuals. I also have a friend who picked one up a the scrap yard for near nothing. ...had a sign taped to it that says "will not play games, good for programmers." I think they were serious. [chop] Regards, Chris Christopher Smith, Perl Developer Amdocs - Champaign, IL /usr/bin/perl -e ' print((~"\x95\xc4\xe3"^"Just Another Perl Hacker.")."\x08!\n"); ' From dogas at bellsouth.net Mon Nov 26 12:22:35 2001 From: dogas at bellsouth.net (Mike) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:23:50 2005 Subject: Lisa/UnixPC(Was: Say it ain't so, Joe!) References: <3B55D7F383B0D31197D9009027541CBF1170DEC3@cmiexch1.cmi.itds.com> Message-ID: <001901c176a7$5325b280$93881442@DOMAIN> Hyya Chris, > > -----Original Message----- > > From: Mike [mailto:dogas@bellsouth.net] > > > finally being shuffled here. It was an adventure over miles > > with a car on > > the verge of catrastrophe, filled to the brim. Anyway, > > here's my recent > > 'new finds' list... > > [snip] > > > Apple Lisa w/widget&software & Macintosh Portable > > Wonderful computers. I've been working on restoring one, myself. Need a > new cable for the internal HD (Or at least a new connector to plug into the > HD port) > > Mine is a conglomeration of Mac XL (the newer model that wasn't compatible > with Lisa OS) and Lisa parts. I believe the Lisa IO board is toasted, so > that came from the XL (Which was functional but physically trashed) > I bought my first two Lisa 2 computers from Sun Remarketing a few years ago, just the basic machines, but they both booted off a MacXL floppy also supplied from Sun when I bought them. But I really wanted one with a HD and some programming software (MacApp or Smalltalk) for it and eventually even them both on a network doing something PARCish... I picked up Joe's Lisa in a bunch of parts. He had dissassembled it down to the floppy bay and power on/off switch but I did also get the internal tower with the widget and floppy that I hope to migrate to one of my machines so I may need that parallel cable I already gave Dave Greelesh the keyboard and mouse for his Lisa. I did get alot of software for it that I haven't tried yet and maybe an extra i/o board, lemme check... > Incidentally, please let me know if you find a way to make a bootable backup > of Lisa OS or Macworks. :) (Not that I'll be backing Macworks up until I fix > the internal drive cable) > > [snip] > > > AT&T UnixPC and hd drive and software > > These are great. I picked up one of these from a university I used to > attend. It was about to get trashed, and somebody I knew at the time picked > it up along with the seven or so others that were going out of style. > Software and everything. I managed to get the SVR3.0 development kit > working with the R3.5 OS that I've got. It's pretty functional at this > point. They are cool!. I've been playing around with it and having alota fun. Its got the developer package installed (among others) and some funky phone demon running but is a real nice environment with C and Curses. Enough to make me happy. > Since then, I've located a brand new one at a local computer store (really), > and acquired that for my SO. We've even still got the original box. :) > That's great! I akso found two 3b2's (a 400 and a 1000-80m) and a AT&T terminal a while back too but haven't tried them yet. > She has since gotten some original manuals. > > I also have a friend who picked one up a the scrap yard for near nothing. > ...had a sign taped to it that says "will not play games, good for > programmers." > > I think they were serious. > barbarians! ;) > [chop] > > Regards, > > Chris > > > Christopher Smith, Perl Developer > Amdocs - Champaign, IL > > /usr/bin/perl -e ' > print((~"\x95\xc4\xe3"^"Just Another Perl Hacker.")."\x08!\n"); > ' > > Cheers - Mike From csmith at amdocs.com Mon Nov 26 13:34:15 2001 From: csmith at amdocs.com (Christopher Smith) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:23:50 2005 Subject: Lisa/UnixPC(Was: Say it ain't so, Joe!) Message-ID: <3B55D7F383B0D31197D9009027541CBF1170DECC@cmiexch1.cmi.itds.com> > -----Original Message----- > From: Mike [mailto:dogas@bellsouth.net] > and floppy that I hope to migrate to one of my machines so I > may need that > parallel cable I already gave Dave Greelesh the keyboard and > mouse for his > Lisa. I did get alot of software for it that I haven't tried > yet and maybe > an extra i/o board, lemme check... That would be great if you've got it. The rest of the Mac XL is still setting around. (Honestly, though, I wish it were a Lisa rather than an XL. :) As for the parallel cable, I don't know how the internal drive cable was wired up (:/) but I know that you can plug a straight-through parallel cable (like the macintosh "scsi" cable) into the back, and connect a profile hard disk that way. > > Software and everything. I managed to get the SVR3.0 > development kit > > working with the R3.5 OS that I've got. It's pretty > functional at this > > point. > They are cool!. I've been playing around with it and having > alota fun. > Its got the developer package installed (among others) and > some funky phone > demon running but is a real nice environment with C and > Curses. Enough to > make me happy. The funky phone daemon is pretty cool. I used to leave the UnixPC on and connected to the telephone just so I could use it to put people on hold ;) > That's great! I akso found two 3b2's (a 400 and a 1000-80m) > and a AT&T > terminal a while back too but haven't tried them yet. I have a 3b2, myself, but it doesn't power on yet. Just sort of sets there. No idea what's wrong. > > ...had a sign taped to it that says "will not play games, good for > > programmers." > > I think they were serious. > barbarians! ;) He still has the sign on it, I think... Regards, Chris Christopher Smith, Perl Developer Amdocs - Champaign, IL /usr/bin/perl -e ' print((~"\x95\xc4\xe3"^"Just Another Perl Hacker.")."\x08!\n"); ' From csmith at amdocs.com Mon Nov 26 11:25:03 2001 From: csmith at amdocs.com (Christopher Smith) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:23:50 2005 Subject: Lisa Success.....finally... Message-ID: <3B55D7F383B0D31197D9009027541CBF1170DEC4@cmiexch1.cmi.itds.com> > -----Original Message----- > From: Jeffrey H. Ingber [mailto:jhingber@ix.netcom.com] > clicks (the mouse is good, and tested with an older Mac). The mouse I > have has a more 'square' mouse button as opposed to the long, thin > 'rectanguar' mouse button sometimes seen with these machines: [snip] > mouse I have. There are no 'receptacles' to catch the thumbscrews on > the mouse, and there ins't the ususal metal 'band' around the D-Sub > connector on the motherboard. It's either not supposed to be > there, or > it acts as a ground and is missing. I suspect this why the mouse > doesn't register button clicks but I'm not sure. > > I'll relace the connector with a new one, but only if I'm sure this is > the problem. The mouse is compatible. I have one plugged into my Lisa, but here's the deal with the serial port: It seems that the Lisa mouse setup was a little strange. The port was covered by a plastic "hood," which attached to the back of the case by snapping into two little holes. One hole on each side of the port. This covers the metal "ring" that you're looking for. (I assume the Mac mouse is also looking for it ;) If you've got the mouse plugged in, chances are good you'll yank the hood off when you try to unplug the mouse. Otherwise, you will snap the plastic catches on this hood when/if you try to remove it, AFAIK. You should be able to take a flat screwdriver, and put it in-between the plastic hood and the case, and pry out on the plastic. It should pop right out. This will also make it much easier to plug/unplug the mouse. :) Regards, Chris Christopher Smith, Perl Developer Amdocs - Champaign, IL /usr/bin/perl -e ' print((~"\x95\xc4\xe3"^"Just Another Perl Hacker.")."\x08!\n"); ' From csmith at amdocs.com Mon Nov 26 11:28:12 2001 From: csmith at amdocs.com (Christopher Smith) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:23:50 2005 Subject: Lisa Success.....finally... Message-ID: <3B55D7F383B0D31197D9009027541CBF1170DEC5@cmiexch1.cmi.itds.com> > -----Original Message----- > From: Jeff Hellige [mailto:jhellige@earthlink.net] > Does yours have an external parallel connector or an internal > hard disk or possibly both? I'm pretty sure all Mac XL's lack the > external parallel connector, unless there's an expansion card fitted > for use with the Profile drive, and that it would be like a Lisa 2/10 That's not completely true -- at least for the Mac XL that I've seen. The plug for the internal hard disk was ran via ribbon-cable out of the case, and connected into the external port. Regards, Chris Christopher Smith, Perl Developer Amdocs - Champaign, IL /usr/bin/perl -e ' print((~"\x95\xc4\xe3"^"Just Another Perl Hacker.")."\x08!\n"); ' From jhellige at earthlink.net Mon Nov 26 14:03:07 2001 From: jhellige at earthlink.net (Jeff Hellige) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:23:50 2005 Subject: Lisa Success.....finally... In-Reply-To: <3B55D7F383B0D31197D9009027541CBF1170DEC5@cmiexch1.cmi.itds.com> References: <3B55D7F383B0D31197D9009027541CBF1170DEC5@cmiexch1.cmi.itds.com> Message-ID: > > Does yours have an external parallel connector or an internal >> hard disk or possibly both? I'm pretty sure all Mac XL's lack the >> external parallel connector, unless there's an expansion card fitted >> for use with the Profile drive, and that it would be like a Lisa 2/10 > >That's not completely true -- at least for the Mac XL that I've seen. The >plug for the internal hard disk was ran via ribbon-cable out of the case, >and connected into the external port. If the Mac XL in question has the external parallel port, Lisalite board, and old style I/O board, then it's not a Mac XL but an upgraded Lisa 2 or Lisa 2/5. The factory Macintosh XL's were all based on the Lisa 2/10 with the internal parallel port connector, for use with the Widget hard disk, and the updated I/O board which no longer required the use of the Lisalite board. Unfortunatley, I've never been able to find a document which indicated what model #'s corresponded to which machines. Jeff -- Home of the TRS-80 Model 2000 FAQ File http://www.cchaven.com http://www.geocities.com/siliconvalley/lakes/6757 From jhingber at ix.netcom.com Mon Nov 26 18:07:49 2001 From: jhingber at ix.netcom.com (Jeffrey H. Ingber) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:23:50 2005 Subject: Lisa Success.....finally... In-Reply-To: <3B55D7F383B0D31197D9009027541CBF1170DEC5@cmiexch1.cmi.itds.com> References: <3B55D7F383B0D31197D9009027541CBF1170DEC5@cmiexch1.cmi.itds.com> Message-ID: <1006819692.13500.0.camel@eleusis> On Mon, 2001-11-26 at 12:28, Christopher Smith wrote: > > -----Original Message----- > > From: Jeff Hellige [mailto:jhellige@earthlink.net] > > > Does yours have an external parallel connector or an internal > > hard disk or possibly both? I'm pretty sure all Mac XL's lack the > > external parallel connector, unless there's an expansion card fitted > > for use with the Profile drive, and that it would be like a Lisa 2/10 > > That's not completely true -- at least for the Mac XL that I've seen. The > plug for the internal hard disk was ran via ribbon-cable out of the case, > and connected into the external port. The XL I have has no ribbon cable looping outside of the case. The HD connection is internal. Jeffrey H. Ingber (jhingber _at_ ix.netcom.com) > > Regards, > > Chris > > > Christopher Smith, Perl Developer > Amdocs - Champaign, IL > > /usr/bin/perl -e ' > print((~"\x95\xc4\xe3"^"Just Another Perl Hacker.")."\x08!\n"); > ' > From csmith at amdocs.com Mon Nov 26 14:46:04 2001 From: csmith at amdocs.com (Christopher Smith) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:23:50 2005 Subject: Lisa Success.....finally... Message-ID: <3B55D7F383B0D31197D9009027541CBF1170DECF@cmiexch1.cmi.itds.com> I don't know about a Lisalite board, but it did have an "XLerator" CPU daughterboard, which, among other things, prevented it from booting Lisa OS, AFAIK. :) Regards, Chris Christopher Smith, Perl Developer Amdocs - Champaign, IL /usr/bin/perl -e ' print((~"\x95\xc4\xe3"^"Just Another Perl Hacker.")."\x08!\n"); ' > -----Original Message----- > From: Jeff Hellige [mailto:jhellige@earthlink.net] > If the Mac XL in question has the external parallel port, > Lisalite board, and old style I/O board, then it's not a Mac XL but > an upgraded Lisa 2 or Lisa 2/5. The factory Macintosh XL's were all > based on the Lisa 2/10 with the internal parallel port connector, for > use with the Widget hard disk, and the updated I/O board which no > longer required the use of the Lisalite board. From egendorf at mit.edu Mon Nov 26 12:06:48 2001 From: egendorf at mit.edu (Andrew Egendorf) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:23:50 2005 Subject: Remington Rand 409 Message-ID: I am helping to gather original documents and/or artifacts concerning the Remington Rand 409-series computers for the Remington Rand museum being set up in Rowayton, CT. The models of interest are the 409-2 and the 409-2R. These are tube, punch-card, and programming panel machines from the 1950s. We are interested in documenting the location of all surviving artifacts, but also would like to acquire particularly interesting items by donation or purchase. We are looking specifically for anything related to the programming of these machines, such as the programming panels, programming manuals, or the programming jumper wires. Photographs or drawings of programming panels (originals or reproduced in third-party publications), with or without programs wired on them, also would be of interest. If you have any of the above, or have more general items such as Remington Rand brand computer tubes or punch cards, whether or not you wish to sell or donate them, please e-mail me at: egendorf@mit.edu. Thanks. From vance at ikickass.org Mon Nov 26 13:18:05 2001 From: vance at ikickass.org (One Without Reason) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:23:50 2005 Subject: Remington Rand 409 In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Mon, 26 Nov 2001, Andrew Egendorf wrote: > I am helping to gather original documents and/or artifacts concerning the > Remington Rand 409-series computers for the Remington Rand museum being set > up in Rowayton, CT. The models of interest are the 409-2 and the 409-2R. > These are tube, punch-card, and programming panel machines from the 1950s. Wow! Cool! Let me know when this museum is set up, or even if you would like my help. It sounds like a place I would most definitely like to see! Peace... Sridhar From cmcmanis at mcmanis.com Mon Nov 26 13:03:41 2001 From: cmcmanis at mcmanis.com (Chuck McManis) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:23:50 2005 Subject: one shoe down ... Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20011126110154.00a751b0@mcmanis.com> Well the "new" Encompass site is updated and guess what, no "free DECUS" memberships anymore, now its $79.99 "early bird special" and $99.99 regular membership. No doubt when they become HP it will be even more irrelevant to the cause of preserving old DEC gear. I sure hope they offer lifetime VAX licenses at some point. --Chuck From erd_6502 at yahoo.com Mon Nov 26 13:45:22 2001 From: erd_6502 at yahoo.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:23:50 2005 Subject: one shoe down ... In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20011126110154.00a751b0@mcmanis.com> Message-ID: <20011126194522.75364.qmail@web20102.mail.yahoo.com> --- Chuck McManis wrote: > Well the "new" Encompass site is updated and guess what, no "free DECUS" > memberships anymore, now its $79.99 "early bird special" and $99.99 > regular > membership. No doubt when they become HP it will be even more irrelevant > to > the cause of preserving old DEC gear. I sure hope they offer lifetime VAX > licenses at some point. For those of us DECUS members who have not yet gotten any hobbyist VAX licenses, is it too late? I have one of the recent hobby CDs and a bunch of 6.x originals, so media isn't a real problem, but licenses are. What about a project to hack LMF? There was a lot of controversy a while back about the "Screw LMF" T-Shirt at a Symposium with, IIRC, a 5.2 and 5.3 patch (details of exact versions fuzzy). Did DEC decide to lock stuff down after 5.x or is it still possible to simply bypass checks in LMF.EXE to always grant a license? It just sucks to have something as cool as non-commercial licenses granted for free change to require a paid-memebership to an organization to get them for free. In any case, I don't expect to _pay_ to join Encompass. I would think that losing a substantial quantity of members would cause them to re-think their policies (including folding, since it _does_ cost to run an organization, but normally, those costs are considered absorbable because of the greater benefit to the bottom-line that such an organization represents). -ethan __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! GeoCities - quick and easy web site hosting, just $8.95/month. http://geocities.yahoo.com/ps/info1 From pechter at ureach.com Mon Nov 26 14:06:45 2001 From: pechter at ureach.com (Bill Pechter) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:23:50 2005 Subject: one shoe down ... Message-ID: <200111262006.PAA16295@stage20.ureach.com> When I can't get the license files anymore, I guess my VAX goes from OpenVMS to NetBSD. Bill -- Bill Pechter Systems Administrator uReach Technologies 732-335-5432 (Work) 877-661-2126 (Fax) ---- On Mon, 26 Nov 2001, Chuck McManis (cmcmanis@mcmanis.com) wrote: > Well the "new" Encompass site is updated and guess what, no "free DECUS" > > memberships anymore, now its $79.99 "early bird special" and $99.99 > regular > membership. No doubt when they become HP it will be even more irrelevant > to > the cause of preserving old DEC gear. I sure hope they offer lifetime > VAX > licenses at some point. > > --Chuck > > > > From cmcmanis at mcmanis.com Mon Nov 26 14:21:03 2001 From: cmcmanis at mcmanis.com (Chuck McManis) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:23:50 2005 Subject: one shoe down ... In-Reply-To: <20011126194522.75364.qmail@web20102.mail.yahoo.com> References: <5.1.0.14.0.20011126110154.00a751b0@mcmanis.com> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20011126121648.00aafec0@mcmanis.com> At 11:45 AM 11/26/01, Ethan Dicks wrote: >For those of us DECUS members who have not yet gotten any hobbyist VAX >licenses, is it too late? I have one of the recent hobby CDs and a bunch >of 6.x originals, so media isn't a real problem, but licenses are. Its still possible to get licenses if you have a DECUS *number.* The original DECUS membership "ids" were a mix of letters (basically parts of both your last and first name) and they were later changed to Encompass membership numbers. If you have the number then the Montagar page will accept it, if you have the old LETTER id then that page will not recognize it. >What about a project to hack LMF? There was a lot of controversy a while >back about the "Screw LMF" T-Shirt at a Symposium with, IIRC, a 5.2 and >5.3 patch (details of exact versions fuzzy). Did DEC decide to lock stuff >down after 5.x or is it still possible to simply bypass checks in LMF.EXE >to always grant a license? Well it has been demonstrated on this list that one can "reverse engineer" the LMF algorithm and generate your own PAKs. Presumably that is an option, although it becomes significantly more onerous than being "legit" >It just sucks to have something as cool as non-commercial licenses granted >for free change to require a paid-memebership to an organization to get >them for free. Yes, and I'm afraid HP/Compaq is intent on laying off the "cool" people who agree with sentiment in preference for keeping the bean counters. Now a lot of DECUS folks are there only for the licenses so perhaps they could spin off just a license program. > In any case, I don't expect to _pay_ to join Encompass. I >would think that losing a substantial quantity of members would cause them >to re-think their policies (including folding, since it _does_ cost to >run an organization, but normally, those costs are considered absorbable >because of the greater benefit to the bottom-line that such an organization >represents). In times like these, one has to wonder if they would notice the loss. --Chuck From CordaAJ at nswc.navy.mil Mon Nov 26 14:30:33 2001 From: CordaAJ at nswc.navy.mil (Corda Albert J DLVA) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:23:50 2005 Subject: one shoe down ... Message-ID: <7B4C28C84831D211BFA200805F9F34561A8F27@nswcdlvaex04.nswc.navy.mil> If I remember properly, the licences issued on behalf of the hobbyist VAX/VMS effort were good for 1 year only (from date of issue?) and needed to be re-issued every year (please correct me if I'm wrong... I am not very VMS literate :-) At the time I remember reading of this, someone indicated that it wouldn't be a problem, since all you needed to get a new licence was a current DECUS membership (which was free)... we were told not to worry.... Well, apparently we should now start worrying.... -al- -acorda@1bigred.com > -----Original Message----- > From: Ethan Dicks [mailto:erd_6502@yahoo.com] > Sent: Monday, November 26, 2001 2:45 PM > To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org > Subject: Re: one shoe down ... > > > > --- Chuck McManis wrote: > > Well the "new" Encompass site is updated and guess what, no > "free DECUS" > > memberships anymore, now its $79.99 "early bird special" and $99.99 > > regular > > membership. No doubt when they become HP it will be even > more irrelevant > > to > > the cause of preserving old DEC gear. I sure hope they > offer lifetime VAX > > licenses at some point. > > For those of us DECUS members who have not yet gotten any hobbyist VAX > licenses, is it too late? I have one of the recent hobby CDs > and a bunch > of 6.x originals, so media isn't a real problem, but licenses are. > > What about a project to hack LMF? There was a lot of > controversy a while > back about the "Screw LMF" T-Shirt at a Symposium with, IIRC, > a 5.2 and > 5.3 patch (details of exact versions fuzzy). Did DEC decide > to lock stuff > down after 5.x or is it still possible to simply bypass > checks in LMF.EXE > to always grant a license? > > It just sucks to have something as cool as non-commercial > licenses granted > for free change to require a paid-memebership to an > organization to get > them for free. In any case, I don't expect to _pay_ to join > Encompass. I > would think that losing a substantial quantity of members > would cause them > to re-think their policies (including folding, since it _does_ cost to > run an organization, but normally, those costs are considered > absorbable > because of the greater benefit to the bottom-line that such > an organization > represents). > > -ethan > > > > __________________________________________________ > Do You Yahoo!? > Yahoo! GeoCities - quick and easy web site hosting, just $8.95/month. > http://geocities.yahoo.com/ps/info1 > From bdwheele at indiana.edu Mon Nov 26 14:38:11 2001 From: bdwheele at indiana.edu (Brian Wheeler) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:23:50 2005 Subject: one shoe down ... In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20011126110154.00a751b0@mcmanis.com> References: <5.1.0.14.0.20011126110154.00a751b0@mcmanis.com> Message-ID: <1006807091.31558.0.camel@wombat.educ.indiana.edu> On Mon, 2001-11-26 at 14:03, Chuck McManis wrote: > Well the "new" Encompass site is updated and guess what, no "free DECUS" > memberships anymore, now its $79.99 "early bird special" and $99.99 regular > membership. No doubt when they become HP it will be even more irrelevant to > the cause of preserving old DEC gear. I sure hope they offer lifetime VAX > licenses at some point. > > --Chuck Are you sure? Looking at the "i want to re-enlist form" at https://safe2.sba.com/encompass/MemberForm.cfm It only looks like money is required if you're going to become a sustaining member... Of course there is a monster note on the page before: "Join or Renew Today - BASIC and SUSTAINING membership will only be available until December 31, 2001!" Brian From erd_6502 at yahoo.com Mon Nov 26 14:48:43 2001 From: erd_6502 at yahoo.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:23:50 2005 Subject: one shoe down ... In-Reply-To: <1006807091.31558.0.camel@wombat.educ.indiana.edu> Message-ID: <20011126204843.10301.qmail@web20106.mail.yahoo.com> --- Brian Wheeler wrote: > Are you sure? Looking at the "i want to re-enlist form" at > https://safe2.sba.com/encompass/MemberForm.cfm > > It only looks like money is required if you're going to become a > sustaining member... For now... > Of course there is a monster note on the page before: > "Join or Renew Today - BASIC and SUSTAINING membership will only be > available until December 31, 2001!" I just renewed, but if next November they try to shake down the Basic Members, they'll shake me right out of the tree. I haven't made my living off of DEC hardware/software in nearly 10 years. The only thing that kept me around was that I like to play with the toys. -ethan __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! GeoCities - quick and easy web site hosting, just $8.95/month. http://geocities.yahoo.com/ps/info1 From rhudson at cnonline.net Mon Nov 26 14:00:37 2001 From: rhudson at cnonline.net (Ron Hudson) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:23:50 2005 Subject: PDP11 Processor handbook Message-ID: <3C029F65.9080406@cnonline.net> I just picked up a PDP11 processor handbook. Listed on the front also the pdp11/04/24/34a/44/70. There is a picture of two of the shorter white system cabinets, one i guess is one of the front loading tape driver the other case has two "RL02" unit separated by "somthing" perhaps a cpu with no front panel lights. The book is copyrighted 1981. Has this book been scaned? is it already available on the internet? If not, I will make it available to someone who will scan it and return it to me.. From mrbill at mrbill.net Mon Nov 26 16:27:37 2001 From: mrbill at mrbill.net (Bill Bradford) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:23:51 2005 Subject: PDP11 Processor handbook In-Reply-To: <3C029F65.9080406@cnonline.net> References: <3C029F65.9080406@cnonline.net> Message-ID: <20011126162737.F14419@mrbill.net> I've got a few of them; they're not that rare.. Bill On Mon, Nov 26, 2001 at 12:00:37PM -0800, Ron Hudson wrote: > I just picked up a PDP11 processor handbook. Listed on > the front also the pdp11/04/24/34a/44/70. There is a picture > of two of the shorter white system cabinets, one i guess is > one of the front loading tape driver the other case has two > "RL02" unit separated by "somthing" perhaps a cpu with no > front panel lights. The book is copyrighted 1981. > > Has this book been scaned? is it already available on the > internet? If not, I will make it available to someone who > will scan it and return it to me.. > > -- Bill Bradford mrbill@mrbill.net Austin, TX From rhudson at cnonline.net Mon Nov 26 14:09:05 2001 From: rhudson at cnonline.net (Ron Hudson) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:23:51 2005 Subject: PDP11 Processor handbook Message-ID: <3C02A161.5060101@cnonline.net> I just picked up a PDP11 processor handbook. Listed on the front also the pdp11/04/24/34a/44/70. There is a picture of two of the shorter white system cabinets, one i guess is one of the front loading tape driver the other case has two "RL02" unit separated by "somthing" perhaps a cpu with no front panel lights. The book is copyrighted 1981. Has this book been scaned? is it already available on the internet? If not, I will make it available to someone who will scan it and return it to me.. From erd_6502 at yahoo.com Mon Nov 26 14:42:07 2001 From: erd_6502 at yahoo.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:23:51 2005 Subject: Finally got a Hayes Chronograph! Message-ID: <20011126204207.83442.qmail@web20102.mail.yahoo.com> After much searching (and missing two that went for auction when I was on vacation), a Hayes Chronograph has finally fallen into my waiting hands. Turns out one of the people I was camping with when I was on vacation had one in the basement that he just gave me. He picked it up 7 years ago for $10 at a Hamfest. I had to resolder the AC jack and it now works great! I was contemplating writing a Perl module to front-end it (and hide the AT syntax for setting/reading it). I was curious if anyone had any suggestions about where it belongs on CPAN (since I was planning on giving the code away). I wasn't sure if it belonged in the "Time" branch or if there were a more appropriate branch for device "drivers" in Perl. I was contemplating an approach were you create a Chronograph "object" and have it set the time to either now or a given time and return the time in text or seconds-since-the-epoch format. A Perl module would also give me a place to document the command syntax for the future - currently the only thing I've seen is a single CP/M program in assembler and the scanned docs on a classiccmp member's site (Thanks muchly, Rich!). Cheers, -ethan __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! GeoCities - quick and easy web site hosting, just $8.95/month. http://geocities.yahoo.com/ps/info1 From foo at siconic.com Mon Nov 26 15:37:02 2001 From: foo at siconic.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:23:51 2005 Subject: Finally got a Hayes Chronograph! In-Reply-To: <20011126204207.83442.qmail@web20102.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: On Mon, 26 Nov 2001, Ethan Dicks wrote: > I was contemplating writing a Perl module to front-end it (and hide > the AT syntax for setting/reading it). I was curious if anyone had > any suggestions about where it belongs on CPAN (since I was planning > on giving the code away). I wasn't sure if it belonged in the "Time" > branch or if there were a more appropriate branch for device "drivers" > in Perl. I was contemplating an approach were you create a > Chronograph "object" and have it set the time to either now or a given > time and return the time in text or seconds-since-the-epoch format. > A Perl module would also give me a place to document the command > syntax for the future - currently the only thing I've seen is a single > CP/M program in assembler and the scanned docs on a classiccmp > member's site (Thanks muchly, Rich!). What Perl module are you using for serial port access? Or did you just do a low level open of the serial device? I'm using Device::Serial, which was modeled after the Win32 serial port routines and it sucks for the most part. If you rolled your own, I would mind seeing the code. Serial ports under Unix are a bitch. I wanted to create an alternate Device::Serial module that would be much cleaner than the existing one. As for where to put it on CPAN, I would suggest: Operating_System_Interfaces/Hardware Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org From erd_6502 at yahoo.com Mon Nov 26 16:10:12 2001 From: erd_6502 at yahoo.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:23:51 2005 Subject: Finally got a Hayes Chronograph! In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20011126221012.28186.qmail@web20110.mail.yahoo.com> --- Sellam Ismail wrote: > On Mon, 26 Nov 2001, Ethan Dicks wrote: > > > I was contemplating writing a Perl module to front-end it (and hide > > the AT syntax for setting/reading it)... > > What Perl module are you using for serial port access? Or did you just > do a low level open of the serial device? I'm using Device::Serial, > which was modeled after the Win32 serial port routines and it sucks for > the most part. Well... I _hadn't_ yet. I was still rolling around design ideas in my head. I haven't written a byte of code yet. I really hadn't thought that serial access was going to be a problem, but, I haven't ever tried it from Perl. :-( I was contemplating passing a serial device descriptor ('/dev/ttyS01', '/dev/ttya', etc.) as part of the object constructor or as a seperate method (i.e., $hcr->setSerialPort($port_name)). I must admit that I never gave DOS/Win32 Perl a single thought. I was only thinking of Solaris/Linux since that's what I run at home. I even have Perl on my W2K laptop (from work) - I just don't ever have cause to run it. > If you rolled your own, I would mind seeing the code. I take it you meant "wouldn't"... > Serial ports under Unix are a bitch. I wanted to create an alternate > Device::Serial module that would be much cleaner than the existing one. I'll take your word for it. I wasn't expecting trouble in this area. It wouldn't be as clean, but perhaps the main loop could open the serial port in its own idiom and pass that open port descriptor to the Chronograph object. Little messy, but it's _your_ problem to open the port, not the Chronograph's problem. > As for where to put it on CPAN, I would suggest: > > Operating_System_Interfaces/Hardware I'll look into that area and see what else is hanging around. Thanks for the suggestion. -ethan __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! GeoCities - quick and easy web site hosting, just $8.95/month. http://geocities.yahoo.com/ps/info1 From foo at siconic.com Mon Nov 26 18:17:10 2001 From: foo at siconic.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:23:51 2005 Subject: Finally got a Hayes Chronograph! In-Reply-To: <20011126221012.28186.qmail@web20110.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: On Mon, 26 Nov 2001, Ethan Dicks wrote: > Well... I _hadn't_ yet. I was still rolling around design ideas in my > head. I haven't written a byte of code yet. I really hadn't thought > that serial access was going to be a problem, but, I haven't ever > tried it from Perl. :-( I was contemplating passing a serial device > descriptor ('/dev/ttyS01', '/dev/ttya', etc.) as part of the object > constructor or as a seperate method (i.e., > $hcr->setSerialPort($port_name)). I must admit that I never gave > DOS/Win32 Perl a single thought. I was only thinking of Solaris/Linux > since that's what I run at home. I even have Perl on my W2K laptop > (from work) - I just don't ever have cause to run it. Well, you certainly want to check out Device::SerialPort then. As I said before, the interface mostly sucks, but it will be good enough for what you want to do (send commands and receive data). I am just used to having more control of the serial stream. The constructor in this module works pretty much as you describe. I can help you get up and running with it so you can cut out some development time. Once you get used to it it's pretty easy to use. Unix has a powerful but very complex interface to the serial port. There are a couple good tutors online for accessing serial ports in Unix, but I haven't gotten around to hacking up a good library. I just don't have that kind of patience anymore, though a better one is sorely needed for Perl. Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org From marino13 at btinternet.com Mon Nov 26 15:20:23 2001 From: marino13 at btinternet.com (Shaun Stephenson) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:23:51 2005 Subject: *HELP* - How do I temporarily unsubscribe? Message-ID: <3C02B217.BDE6583F@btinternet.com> Hi all Quickie which I need a quick reply to - How do I tempoarily suspend recieving posts from the group? I'm on holiday for 2 weeks very soon (1.5 days!) and don't fancy a few thousand posts in my mail when I return. Cheers! Shaun From r_beaudry at hotmail.com Mon Nov 26 15:48:14 2001 From: r_beaudry at hotmail.com (Rich Beaudry) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:23:51 2005 Subject: Multibus I items For Sale Message-ID: Hello all, I am trimming back my collection of Multibus I items. I am still keeping some card cages, power supplies, prototyping cards, and other cards, but I need to make room for other stuff :-) I would like to get some small amount of $$ per card, plus shipping, so please make offers. I will take offers until Thursday morning, to give the international and digest readers time to make offers. Stuff goes to the highest bidder, and remember, $0.00 is a valid bid. The vast majority of this stuff is untested, and is sold strictly as-is, so keep that in mind when bidding. I'm not looking for eBay prices, but I did pay for a lot of this stuff, so I'd like to get some of it back. Oh, by the way, MAKE ALL OFFERS OFF-LIST!!!!! I will NOT post updates to the list. Offers made to the list will be summarily dropped in the bit-bucket, and the offender will be summarily dropped into the molten iron bucket. Also, please do NOT email me and ask what the current high bid is. Make your bid, and deal with it :-) No documentation is included, unless stated explicitly below. Here's the list: - Qty. 8 Intel PWA-1000359 (seven are further marked "REV 01B"). These are in fair condition, some scratches on the tops of some ICs, and the ceramic caps are scratched. Also, the rotary switches for address decoding have lost a bit of their "snap", and are mushy to turn. - Qty. 7 Micro Industries BLC-508 I/O Expansion board. Seven of these are still in their original box, with waranty card. The eighth is unboxed, but in equally excellent condition. These are very nice boards, and although they all show light markings on the edge connectors, they haven't been used a lot. Rotary switches all snap nicely. - Qty. 1 National Semicondutor BLC-508 I/O Expansion board. Nice condition, very clean. - Qty. 1 Intel Comm. Expansion Board, PWA 1001197-04 L B F. Looks like an SBC-534, but it's not marked "534", so I'm not sure. Board in good condition. - Qty. 1 Ciprico Tapemaster. P/N 81006101A. 2 50-pin connectors for tapes, board in nice clean condition. - Qty. 1 OMEX Interface/Format Memory board. No idea what this is for, but the board is in nice clean condition. - Qty. 1 SMD 2180. Again, no idea what the board is for. 1 60-pin connector, 4 26-pin connectors. Nice clean condition. - Qty. 3 Multibus bus-extender boards. One is by Prototek, one by National Semiconductor, and the third is a no-name brand. - Qty. 1 Intersil MCB 512 memory board. Again, nice and clean. I believe I also have the manual for this. - Qty. 1 Plessey PSM 512 memory board. Nice and clean. I believe I have the manual for this. The Plessey board, or the Intersil board (can't remember) is not fully populated, and does not have sockets for the missing chips (ie, you'd have to solder in sockets, or solder in the chips). Keep that in mind.... Shipping will be by USPS to anywhere in the world they let me ship.... I will quote actual shipping charges when I know who gets what.... Thanks! Rich B. From edick at idcomm.com Mon Nov 26 16:52:15 2001 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:23:51 2005 Subject: Multibus I items For Sale References: Message-ID: <002b01c176cd$009c48a0$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> The SMD 2180, seems to me, must be an SMD interface. The control cable is 60-pins and the data cables are 26. It fits the model. Dick ----- Original Message ----- From: "Rich Beaudry" To: Sent: Monday, November 26, 2001 2:48 PM Subject: Multibus I items For Sale > Hello all, > > I am trimming back my collection of Multibus I items. I am still keeping > some card cages, power supplies, prototyping cards, and other cards, but I > need to make room for other stuff :-) > > I would like to get some small amount of $$ per card, plus shipping, so > please make offers. I will take offers until Thursday morning, to give the > international and digest readers time to make offers. Stuff goes to the > highest bidder, and remember, $0.00 is a valid bid. > > The vast majority of this stuff is untested, and is sold strictly as-is, so > keep that in mind when bidding. I'm not looking for eBay prices, but I did > pay for a lot of this stuff, so I'd like to get some of it back. > > Oh, by the way, MAKE ALL OFFERS OFF-LIST!!!!! I will NOT post updates to > the list. Offers made to the list will be summarily dropped in the > bit-bucket, and the offender will be summarily dropped into the molten iron > bucket. Also, please do NOT email me and ask what the current high bid is. > Make your bid, and deal with it :-) > > No documentation is included, unless stated explicitly below. > > Here's the list: > > - Qty. 8 Intel PWA-1000359 (seven are further marked "REV 01B"). These are > in fair condition, some scratches on the tops of some ICs, and the ceramic > caps are scratched. Also, the rotary switches for address decoding have > lost a bit of their "snap", and are mushy to turn. > - Qty. 7 Micro Industries BLC-508 I/O Expansion board. Seven of these are > still in their original box, with waranty card. The eighth is unboxed, but > in equally excellent condition. These are very nice boards, and although > they all show light markings on the edge connectors, they haven't been used > a lot. Rotary switches all snap nicely. > - Qty. 1 National Semicondutor BLC-508 I/O Expansion board. Nice condition, > very clean. > - Qty. 1 Intel Comm. Expansion Board, PWA 1001197-04 L B F. Looks like an > SBC-534, but it's not marked "534", so I'm not sure. Board in good > condition. > - Qty. 1 Ciprico Tapemaster. P/N 81006101A. 2 50-pin connectors for tapes, > board in nice clean condition. > - Qty. 1 OMEX Interface/Format Memory board. No idea what this is for, but > the board is in nice clean condition. > - Qty. 1 SMD 2180. Again, no idea what the board is for. 1 60-pin > connector, 4 26-pin connectors. Nice clean condition. > - Qty. 3 Multibus bus-extender boards. One is by Prototek, one by National > Semiconductor, and the third is a no-name brand. > - Qty. 1 Intersil MCB 512 memory board. Again, nice and clean. I believe I > also have the manual for this. > - Qty. 1 Plessey PSM 512 memory board. Nice and clean. I believe I have > the manual for this. > > The Plessey board, or the Intersil board (can't remember) is not fully > populated, and does not have sockets for the missing chips (ie, you'd have > to solder in sockets, or solder in the chips). Keep that in mind.... > > Shipping will be by USPS to anywhere in the world they let me ship.... I > will quote actual shipping charges when I know who gets what.... > > Thanks! > > Rich B. > > > From mikeford at socal.rr.com Mon Nov 26 15:49:31 2001 From: mikeford at socal.rr.com (Mike Ford) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:23:51 2005 Subject: Central Point option floppy controller In-Reply-To: <001b01c1761e$89e817b0$19bd343f@artihome> Message-ID: > I just found a thread about this old card and was wondering if anyone >knows where I can purchase one or of a forum where I might be able to >make this sort of request. I apologize if this is out of context for this >forum. Thank you. Ray... A couple people on the list have one or two of these cards, so asking here is a good place. We have had a couple of fairly long discussions on the various models and brands of hardware and software used in reading many types of floppies, so a check of the archives is a good idea too. Whenever people ask for old stuff like this, my first question is what do you plan to do with it? From csmith at amdocs.com Mon Nov 26 16:08:25 2001 From: csmith at amdocs.com (Christopher Smith) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:23:51 2005 Subject: Northstar Message-ID: <3B55D7F383B0D31197D9009027541CBF1170DED1@cmiexch1.cmi.itds.com> Hi everybody. Somebody wrote sometime in the last couple of days about some Northstar S-100 machines that are soon to become available. I would respond directly, but I've lost the post. I may be interested in one of them. Please email me. (this address: csmith@amdocs.com) Regards, Chris Christopher Smith, Perl Developer Amdocs - Champaign, IL /usr/bin/perl -e ' print((~"\x95\xc4\xe3"^"Just Another Perl Hacker.")."\x08!\n"); ' From rhudson at cnonline.net Mon Nov 26 17:01:50 2001 From: rhudson at cnonline.net (Ron Hudson) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:23:51 2005 Subject: wtb apple game paddles Message-ID: <3C02C9DE.6000708@cnonline.net> Anyone have a set of apple game paddles, to plug in to the 9pin female port on the back of my appleiie or apple ii c plus? to spare? From jrkeys at concentric.net Mon Nov 26 17:31:32 2001 From: jrkeys at concentric.net (John R. Keys Jr.) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:23:51 2005 Subject: 360k versus 1.2Mb floppy drives... References: <000801c1761f$791186a0$19bd343f@artihome> Message-ID: <008a01c176d2$7ede6b80$98721fd1@default> If you flip open the door and see two pins one on the right front corner and one on the left front corner you have a high density drive. So if you see only one pin you have a 720. These are the pins that go into the holes at the top of the 3.5 FD. ----- Original Message ----- From: "SchiskaMeister" To: Sent: Sunday, November 25, 2001 8:10 PM Subject: 360k versus 1.2Mb floppy drives... Does anyone know if there is a way to tell which is which by looking at the drive?. FTM the 720k vs 1.44Mb 3 1/2" drives. Thanks in advance... R.. From cisin at xenosoft.com Mon Nov 26 18:12:47 2001 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin (XenoSoft)) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:23:51 2005 Subject: 360k versus 1.2Mb floppy drives... In-Reply-To: <008a01c176d2$7ede6b80$98721fd1@default> Message-ID: > If you flip open the door and see two pins one on the right front corner > and one on the left front corner you have a high density drive. So if > you see only one pin you have a 720. These are the pins that go into > the holes at the top of the 3.5 FD. Hmmm. None of my 360K nor 1.2M drives have pins to sense density. If there is an asterisk ('*') embossed on the front panel of a 5.25" drive, then it is a relatively late model 360K. If there is NO asterisk ('*') then is an older 360K, OR a 1.2M, OR a later 360K from a non-complying company that thought that it was pretty stupid to go along with IBM's grand idea of putting the identifying mark on the new versions of the model that previously was unmarked (putting an asterisk on the NEW type of drive might have made sense). If the 5.25" drive turns at 360 RPM, then it is a 1.2M. If it turns at 300 RPM, then it is a 360K, or "360K mode" in of the 1.2M drives that switched speed instead of switching data transfer rate (as IBM did). 300 RPM was also used for 720K 5.25" drives. (not used on IBM, except for the JX model) Is there any connection to the "density" pin? To summarize: look up the part number. BTW, for 3.5", not all drives used "pins". Some used photocells. -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin@xenosoft.com From pete at dunnington.u-net.com Mon Nov 26 18:07:33 2001 From: pete at dunnington.u-net.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:23:51 2005 Subject: PDP-8/E questions In-Reply-To: ard@p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) "Re: PDP-8/E questions" (Nov 25, 1:28) References: Message-ID: <10111270007.ZM27710@mindy.dunnington.u-net.com> On Nov 25, 1:13, Pete Turnbull wrote: > The front bezel (frame round the panel) has been repainted white, and the > paint has flaked or chipped off in places, to reveal a chipped coat of > beige paint. I'd like to refinish and respray it. What's the correct > colour? On Nov 25, 1:28, Tony Duell wrote: > Mine is the normal DEC white colour (same as an RK05 or RX01, or... panel). > And I don't think it's ever been repainted On Nov 24, 21:03, ajp166 wrote: > DEC gray #68 A color close to eggshell toward very light gray. OK, so which? White or gray? I'm inclined to believe Allison, as my RX02 is the same colour as my QBus machines, and that's gray. But my 11/40 is lighter than that (though still not white), and in the pictures on David Gesswein's pages (eg http://www.pdp8.net/pdp8em/pics/topboards.shtml?small) it looks decidely white.... Mine has obviously had a thick coat (undercoat?) of grey, same colour as my RX02, 11/23plus, 11/03, 11T23, 11/34, etc; but also had a thinner coat of white on top. -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager University of York From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Mon Nov 26 20:06:16 2001 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (ajp166) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:23:51 2005 Subject: PDP-8/E questions Message-ID: <001201c176e9$bcfd50e0$77ec9a8d@ajp166> The undercoat is the right one. Keep in mind the color is light gray and can look almost white in a gamma saturated picture. Also over the early years DEC standard gray has never been exactly the same color. It tended to standardize over time. Allison -----Original Message----- From: Pete Turnbull To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org Date: Monday, November 26, 2001 7:36 PM Subject: Re: PDP-8/E questions >On Nov 25, 1:13, Pete Turnbull wrote: > >> The front bezel (frame round the panel) has been repainted white, and the >> paint has flaked or chipped off in places, to reveal a chipped coat of >> beige paint. I'd like to refinish and respray it. What's the correct >> colour? > >On Nov 25, 1:28, Tony Duell wrote: > >> Mine is the normal DEC white colour (same as an RK05 or RX01, or... >panel). >> And I don't think it's ever been repainted > >On Nov 24, 21:03, ajp166 wrote: >> DEC gray #68 A color close to eggshell toward very light gray. > >OK, so which? White or gray? I'm inclined to believe Allison, as my RX02 >is the same colour as my QBus machines, and that's gray. But my 11/40 is >lighter than that (though still not white), and in the pictures on David >Gesswein's pages (eg http://www.pdp8.net/pdp8em/pics/topboards.shtml?small) >it looks decidely white.... > >Mine has obviously had a thick coat (undercoat?) of grey, same colour as my >RX02, 11/23plus, 11/03, 11T23, 11/34, etc; but also had a thinner coat of >white on top. > >-- >Pete Peter Turnbull > Network Manager > University of York From tothwolf at concentric.net Mon Nov 26 20:36:36 2001 From: tothwolf at concentric.net (Tothwolf) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:23:51 2005 Subject: 1771 floppy controller questions In-Reply-To: <001f01c176cc$99f10500$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> Message-ID: On Mon, 26 Nov 2001, Richard Erlacher wrote: > From: "Ethan Dicks" > > --- Richard Erlacher wrote: > > > You can get one for cheap if you go down to the thrift store and buy an > > > old TRS-80. That will cost less than a new WD1771, I'd bet. > > > > I'll _trade_ you an old TRS-80 for a WD1771. I haven't seen > > non-Commodore/Apple/IBM-compatible computers* at the thrift stores > > in a long, long time. I suspect they don't bother setting them out > > and just trash them. > > Actually, my initial comment was that I'd happily junk a Coco in order > to get a WD1773. I've got plenty of 1771's, and a few 179x's in my > parts stock. If I needed a 1771, unlikely, but if it happened, I'd > simply unplug one from an old "Big Board" SBC. I've got an upgrade to > a 179x for them anyway. It's been a while since I last saw a Coco, > and now that I know there's a 1773 in them, I'll snag one first chance > I get. I've still got TRS-80 doc's lying about from back in the late > '70's, but I've never owned a TRS-80. Well, I now have a pair of brand new WD1771 chips on hand, one for my model 1, and one spare. A local vendor I use will sell me as many chips as I need for $5ea. They have both the WD and National versions of the chip. I imagine they have another 25-40+ chips left in stock, tho a good many of them need to have their pins straightened. -Toth From tothwolf at concentric.net Mon Nov 26 20:38:11 2001 From: tothwolf at concentric.net (Tothwolf) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:23:51 2005 Subject: 1771 floppy controller questions In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Fri, 23 Nov 2001, Don Maslin wrote: > On Fri, 23 Nov 2001, Tothwolf wrote: > > On Thu, 22 Nov 2001, Tony Duell wrote: > > > > > > At the time I thought the particular lead might have not been used, and or > > > > someone damaged it when installing the chip. I had never seen a chip with > > > > > > IIRC, the DRAMs in the model 3 are 16K * 1 4116s or similar. All the pins > > > are used on these chips. If a pin is missing, then you are going to have > > > problems... > > > > I wonder if it would be worth soldering a new pin to what's left of that > > chip's lead? It looked like it had just corroded off, but with no other > > signs of moisture, I was kinda puzzled. > > Why not? You might want to checkout the socket pretty thoroughly, > though. I didn't see any damage when I originally looked at it, but I will double check it before I plug in a repaired/replacement chip. -Toth From tothwolf at concentric.net Mon Nov 26 20:42:23 2001 From: tothwolf at concentric.net (Tothwolf) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:23:51 2005 Subject: 1771 floppy controller questions In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Fri, 23 Nov 2001, Tony Duell wrote: > > I wonder if it would be worth soldering a new pin to what's left of that > > chip's lead? It looked like it had just corroded off, but with no other > > It's worth a try. I've soldered pins onto irreplaceable custom > chips/ROMs/etc and got them to work again. I done this a few times. The last chip I repaired this way, I used a dental bur bit in a dremel to remove enough of the plastic to solder on a new lead. Whatever it is they make those plastic dips out of sure is tough... > > signs of moisture, I was kinda puzzled. > > It supprises me, too... I'd be interested to know which pin it is. I will post the info to the list when I get it out to start work on it. -Toth From tothwolf at concentric.net Mon Nov 26 20:46:43 2001 From: tothwolf at concentric.net (Tothwolf) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:23:51 2005 Subject: 1771 floppy controller questions In-Reply-To: <002f01c17433$b42bad80$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> Message-ID: On Fri, 23 Nov 2001, Richard Erlacher wrote: > From: "Tothwolf" > > > I wonder if it would be worth soldering a new pin to what's left of that > > chip's lead? It looked like it had just corroded off, but with no other > > signs of moisture, I was kinda puzzled. > > If you need 4116's, just send me your address. I've got more than I'll EVER > use, believe me. Thanks for the offer, I'll try my luck at repairing this one before I replace it. I think some of the chips in that machine were replaced already. It has a few dip style chips mixed in with the standard ceramic ones. -Toth From victor9000us at yahoo.com Mon Nov 26 21:03:05 2001 From: victor9000us at yahoo.com (Brad Chase) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:23:51 2005 Subject: FS: Victor Technologies Computers, Software, Documentation In-Reply-To: <3C017290.EEF9B7A0@ccp.com> Message-ID: <3C02BC19.9613.1A9EF31@localhost> Sorry, no ribbons.... I don't think Victor actually manufactured their own printers, but instead rebranded someone else's. If I still had a supply catalog from 20 years ago I could even tell you whose.... -b > Intersting, I have a Victor printer, big as a horse, kinda neat, has > parallel/series/IEE488 interfaces on it. Works fine except for . . no > ribbons available for it. > > Is that part of the package?? > > Gary Hildebrand > From geoffr at zipcon.net Tue Nov 27 00:43:10 2001 From: geoffr at zipcon.net (Geoff Reed) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:23:51 2005 Subject: FS: Victor Technologies Computers, Software, Documentation In-Reply-To: <3C02BC19.9613.1A9EF31@localhost> References: <3C017290.EEF9B7A0@ccp.com> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20011126222804.03268730@mail.zipcon.net> Try Computerfriends. http://www.cfriends.com/macinker.htm if you can get even a dead cart for the printer, you can reink or replace the ribbon in it.... also look at.. http://www.alpha-resources.com/lec/victor.html AR-484(601-484) PRINTER RIBBON AND SPOOL if this is the ribbon, it looks familiar to me... possibly an Okidata ribbon? http://shop.store.yahoo.com/actioncomputer/victorribbon.html or look at http://www.dataproducts.com/ there are 447 ribbons listed that relate to victor printers, calcs, etc..... At 10:03 PM 11/26/01 -0500, you wrote: >Sorry, no ribbons.... > >I don't think Victor actually manufactured their own printers, but instead >rebranded someone >else's. If I still had a supply catalog from 20 years ago I could even >tell you whose.... > > -b > > > Intersting, I have a Victor printer, big as a horse, kinda neat, has > > parallel/series/IEE488 interfaces on it. Works fine except for . . no > > ribbons available for it. > > > > Is that part of the package?? > > > > Gary Hildebrand > > From dittman at dittman.net Mon Nov 26 21:03:59 2001 From: dittman at dittman.net (Eric Dittman) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:23:51 2005 Subject: one shoe down ... In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20011126121648.00aafec0@mcmanis.com> from "Chuck McManis" at Nov 26, 2001 12:21:03 PM Message-ID: <200111270303.fAR33x312634@narnia.int.dittman.net> > At 11:45 AM 11/26/01, Ethan Dicks wrote: > >For those of us DECUS members who have not yet gotten any hobbyist VAX > >licenses, is it too late? I have one of the recent hobby CDs and a bunch > >of 6.x originals, so media isn't a real problem, but licenses are. > > Its still possible to get licenses if you have a DECUS *number.* The > original DECUS membership "ids" were a mix of letters (basically parts of > both your last and first name) and they were later changed to Encompass > membership numbers. If you have the number then the Montagar page will > accept it, if you have the old LETTER id then that page will not recognize it. The original DECUS IDs were numbers, then a couple of years ago they switched to the mix of letters. They've just recently gone back to numbers. > >What about a project to hack LMF? There was a lot of controversy a while > >back about the "Screw LMF" T-Shirt at a Symposium with, IIRC, a 5.2 and > >5.3 patch (details of exact versions fuzzy). Did DEC decide to lock stuff > >down after 5.x or is it still possible to simply bypass checks in LMF.EXE > >to always grant a license? > > Well it has been demonstrated on this list that one can "reverse engineer" > the LMF algorithm and generate your own PAKs. Presumably that is an option, > although it becomes significantly more onerous than being "legit" You can patch VMS to always return a valid status for a requested product, but some products request a bogus license to check if this patch is in place. If it is, the product will disable itself. I don't remember any of DEC's/Compaq's products checking for the patch, but I know of at least two third-party products that perform the check. -- Eric Dittman dittman@dittman.net Check out the DEC Enthusiasts Club at http://www.dittman.net/ From geoffrob at stmarks.pp.catholic.edu.au Mon Nov 26 22:15:18 2001 From: geoffrob at stmarks.pp.catholic.edu.au (Geoff Roberts) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:23:51 2005 Subject: one shoe down ... References: <200111270303.fAR33x312634@narnia.int.dittman.net> Message-ID: <062e01c176fa$1f96e990$de2c67cb@helpdesk> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Eric Dittman" To: Sent: Tuesday, November 27, 2001 1:33 PM Subject: Re: one shoe down ... > You can patch VMS to always return a valid status for a requested product, > but some products request a bogus license to check if this patch is in > place. If it is, the product will disable itself. Or you can run a little app that correctly creates what appears to be a valid installed license for what particular products you wish to run, including the version, number of license units etc. I have plenty of VMS licenses, including a few unlimited user non expiring ones, and a smattering of app licenses, so I don't need it. But I can tell you that the app in question apparently works with any LDB based product. > I don't remember any of DEC's/Compaq's products checking for the patch, > but I know of at least two third-party products that perform the check. They would still work with this particular method. Just as a matter of interest, which apps? Some 3rd party stuff is a bit strange, PerfectDisk, for instance, uses some oddball method, not the LDB. Personally, I firmly believe that all such license enforcement systems are a waste of time, since ultimately they can all be circumvented. It's just a question of how bad you want to do it... Geoff Roberts Computer Systems Manager Saint Mark's College Port Pirie, South Australia geoffrob@stmarks.pp.catholic.edu.au ICQ 1970476 From dittman at dittman.net Mon Nov 26 21:05:52 2001 From: dittman at dittman.net (Eric Dittman) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:23:51 2005 Subject: one shoe down ... In-Reply-To: <200111262006.PAA16295@stage20.ureach.com> from "Bill Pechter" at Nov 26, 2001 03:06:45 PM Message-ID: <200111270305.fAR35qN12644@narnia.int.dittman.net> > When I can't get the license files anymore, > I guess my VAX goes from OpenVMS to NetBSD. My guess is the loss of free licenses will result in the anonymous posting of a way to generate valid licenses. Please don't quote me on this, though. -- Eric Dittman dittman@dittman.net Check out the DEC Enthusiasts Club at http://www.dittman.net/ From cmurillo at emtelsa.multi.net.co Mon Nov 26 21:33:24 2001 From: cmurillo at emtelsa.multi.net.co (Carlos Murillo) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:23:51 2005 Subject: one shoe down ... In-Reply-To: <200111262006.PAA16295@stage20.ureach.com> Message-ID: <3.0.2.32.20011126223324.010c900c@obregon.multi.net.co> At 03:06 PM 11/26/01 -0500, you wrote: >When I can't get the license files anymore, >I guess my VAX goes from OpenVMS to NetBSD. > >Bill Same goes for mine. I might leave an HD with OpenVMS around and turn back the date to boot it now and then. Carlos. -------------------------------------------------------------- Carlos E. Murillo-Sanchez carlos_murillo@nospammers.ieee.org From Antonio.Carlini at riverstonenet.com Tue Nov 27 03:39:11 2001 From: Antonio.Carlini at riverstonenet.com (Carlini, Antonio) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:23:51 2005 Subject: one shoe down ... Message-ID: <3820E2042B6ED5118DC200D0B78EDC47066251@exc-reo1> Geoff Roberts wrote: > Or you can run a little app that correctly creates what > appears to be a > valid installed license for what particular products you wish to run, > including the version, number of license units etc. Never seen this done, never even heard of such an app before. I know that at least two groups (or people) managed to reverse engineer licence PAKs. One was even stopped by DEC through legal action (IIRC). > They would still work with this particular method. > Just as a matter of interest, which apps? One of the 3rd party TCP/IP apps was reputed to do this - possibly Multinet. It's easy enough to check since there is a logical you can set which causes all licence requests to be displayed on the operator console. > Personally, I firmly believe that all such license > enforcement systems are a > waste of time, since ultimately they can all be circumvented. > It's just a > question of how bad you want to do it... To be fair it was never touted as an enforcement method. It was only there as a minor hurdle or tripwire to warn you that you were not allowed to run some software or to limit your usage of said software. This meant that you had to take deliberate steps to get past the LMF. Presumably a defence of "I didn't realise" would have been somewhat harder to use in court! Antonio From allain at panix.com Tue Nov 27 07:39:53 2001 From: allain at panix.com (John Allain) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:23:51 2005 Subject: one shoe down ... References: <7B4C28C84831D211BFA200805F9F34561A8F27@nswcdlvaex04.nswc.navy.mil> Message-ID: <000d01c17749$25f648e0$8a0101ac@ibm23xhr06> > Well, apparently we should now start worrying.... Start? Let's see... First VMS is renamed to OpenVMS. Then the entirety of digital is bought out. Then the VAX line is discontinued. Then the Alpha Chip is discontinued. (think this is the chronology. corrections?) All joking aside, if PDP/RSTS is still alive, as I think was said on this list, then add at least 10 years to that equation to see the end of VAX-Alpha/VMS support. Perhaps the prices of productized VMS and hobbyist VMS will pass on the way down/up and settle on one nice low number. John A. From ncherry at home.com Mon Nov 26 23:12:57 2001 From: ncherry at home.com (Neil Cherry) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:23:51 2005 Subject: Microvax, M3118-YA and pinouts Message-ID: <3C0320D9.A837D49A@home.com> I just bid on an M3118-YA (16 port Async card) and won. Will it work in a MV 3400 and does anyone know the pin outs (in case I don't get the cable)? Thanks -- Linux Home Automation Neil Cherry ncherry@home.net http://members.home.net/ncherry (Text only) http://linuxha.sourceforge.net/ (SourceForge) http://hcs.sourceforge.net/ (HCS II) From ms at silke.rt.schwaben.de Tue Nov 27 01:26:44 2001 From: ms at silke.rt.schwaben.de (Michael Schneider) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:23:51 2005 Subject: Microvax, M3118-YA and pinouts In-Reply-To: <3C0320D9.A837D49A@home.com> References: <3C0320D9.A837D49A@home.com> Message-ID: <1006846005.940.3.camel@silke> It will work. Don't know about the pinout, though... ms On Tue, 2001-11-27 at 06:12, Neil Cherry wrote: > I just bid on an M3118-YA (16 port Async card) and won. Will it work in > a MV 3400 and does anyone know the pin outs (in case I don't get the > cable)? > > Thanks > > -- > Linux Home Automation Neil Cherry ncherry@home.net > http://members.home.net/ncherry (Text only) > http://linuxha.sourceforge.net/ (SourceForge) > http://hcs.sourceforge.net/ (HCS II) > -- Michael Schneider email: ms@silke.rt.schwaben.de Germany http://www.vaxcluster.de People disagree with me. I just ignore them. (Linus Torvalds) From pete at dunnington.u-net.com Tue Nov 27 02:14:20 2001 From: pete at dunnington.u-net.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:23:51 2005 Subject: PDP-8/E questions In-Reply-To: "ajp166" "Re: PDP-8/E questions" (Nov 26, 21:06) References: <001201c176e9$bcfd50e0$77ec9a8d@ajp166> Message-ID: <10111270814.ZM28002@mindy.dunnington.u-net.com> On Nov 26, 21:06, ajp166 wrote: > The undercoat is the right one. Keep in mind the color is light gray > and can look almost white in a gamma saturated picture. > > Also over the early years DEC standard gray has never been exactly > the same color. It tended to standardize over time. Thanks! That's kind of what I thought. I'll go to the car accessory shop tonight and see how close a mtch I can get. -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager University of York From guerney at bigpond.com Tue Nov 27 06:19:08 2001 From: guerney at bigpond.com (Phil Guerney) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:23:51 2005 Subject: Computer Technician's Handbook (1971) and Computer Automation PDC 808 (1968) Message-ID: <003501c1773d$b9d2e0c0$7937fea9@Guerney> At a charity book sale I turned up this book* which promised to "turn an ordinary electronics technician into a computer maintenance specialist". And what a wide open field it was - as it says in Chapter 1: "as of some recent reckonong, there were in the neighborhood of some 50,000 computers currently in operation in some capacity or other" The book used as an example of a "Typical Small Computer" the Computer Automation PDC 808. The picture of the roughly Altair/Imsai sized box was actually labelled "PDC 808 Controller". The CCC list says this box was released in May 1968 (4K of 8-bit core) and there are just a couple of references to it on the Web I can find, and none from recent years. The book contains over 200 pages covering this device to the minutest detail. It seems a shame that such an apparently rare machine was chosen so we do not have a chance to work through the exercise today - it is rare sin't it? *by Brice Ward, published by Foulsham-Tab Ltd (the English version of the American TAB books) Phil From jfoust at threedee.com Tue Nov 27 07:49:23 2001 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:23:51 2005 Subject: AM radio music Message-ID: <5.0.0.25.0.20011127074644.03fd0e00@pc> Time for the daily relay of an on-topic (?) post from Slashdot: http://www.erikyyy.de/tempest/ A new twist on an old trick... Someone's written a program that plays music on AM radios by changing the pattern on the video screen. I'm sure it's only a matter of time before someone writes a converter that "plays" sampled audio or even MP3s in this way. - John From RCini at congressfinancial.com Tue Nov 27 07:49:39 2001 From: RCini at congressfinancial.com (Cini, Richard) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:23:51 2005 Subject: Inaccessible CP/M programs in Altair32 Message-ID: <497A9E0467D2D2119B760090271EB8E5879F90@MAIL10> Don: The emulator is running CP/M 2.2. It can also run AltairDOS and Microsoft Disk BASIC (all of which I have images for). I also have a 5mb CP/M hard disk image. Rich ========================== Richard A. Cini, Jr. Congress Financial Corporation 1133 Avenue of the Americas 30th Floor New York, NY 10036 (212) 545-4402 (212) 840-6259 (facsimile) -----Original Message----- From: Don Maslin [mailto:donm@cts.com] Sent: Monday, November 26, 2001 4:50 PM To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org Subject: Re: Inaccessible CP/M programs in Altair32 On Mon, 26 Nov 2001, Jim Battle wrote: > True, but Rich's emulator is of an Altair -- one with an 8080 in it. ZCPR2 > & 3 were Z80-only affairs, I believe. If he is running a true emulator, I would presume that he was running CP/M-1.4 would he not? If that is so, is it not true that user areas did not come into play until CP/M-2.x? - don > I recently picked up Richard Conn's ZCPR book for $10, but I haven't yet > had time to do more than page through it quickly. It looks like it was an > interesting system; the author was obviously influenced by unix. > > > At 08:33 AM 11/26/01 +0100, Sipke de Wal wrote: > >ZCPR2 & 3 (CP/M extensions) even allowed > >for 32 USER levels (0 .. 31) > > > >Sipke de Wal > >------------------------------------------------- > >http://xgistor.ath.cx > >------------------------------------------------- > > > >----- Original Message ----- > >From: Jim Battle > >To: > >Sent: Monday, November 26, 2001 7:51 AM > >Subject: Re: Inaccessible CP/M programs in Altair32 > > > > > > > Good point -- > > > > > > to flesh it out a bit more, there could be up to 16 different "user" areas > > > on the disk, which go from 0 to 15. Files were tagged with a nibble > > > indicating which user area the file belonged to. > > > > > > To change user areas, type: > > > > > > USER 1 > > > > > > to change to user area 1. By default you are in user 0. Changing to each > > > user area and typing "dir" to see if anything is there is a drag. To find > > > out which, if any, user areas have active files, type: > > > > > > STAT USR: > > > > > > and it responds with something like: > > > > > > Active User: 0 > > > Active Files: 0 1 > > > > > > to indicate you are currently in user 0 area and that user areas 0 and 1 > > > have files in them. > > > (confirmed on *my* CP/M emulator!) > > > > > > > > > At 10:18 PM 11/25/01 -0800, you wrote: > > > >I'm not an expert in Altair CP/M but I do remember one other aspect. It > > > >wasn't password protection but I do remember the concept of differnt user > > > >#'s. It wasn't complicated but somthing like user #'s 1-8. Once you > > > >were that user I seem to remember only the files belonging to that user > > > >showing up... > > > > > > > >Might be a dead end... Just a thought... > > > > > > > >George Rachor > > > > > > > >========================================================= > > > >George L. Rachor Jr. george@rachors.com > > > >Hillsboro, Oregon http://rachors.com > > > >United States of America Amateur Radio : KD7DCX > > > > > > > >On Sun, 25 Nov 2001, Jim Battle wrote: > > > > > > > > > At 10:06 PM 11/25/01 -0500, you wrote: > > > > > >Hi: > > > > > > > > > > > > I'm making progress with using CP/M under Altair32, but I > > have > > > > > > one newbie > > > > > >question since I don't have much experience with CP/M. > > > > > > > > > > > > The disk image I have shows one program in the directory, > > > > > > STAT.COM. Running > > > > > >STAT tells me that there is about 167k free (on a 330k disk). Looking > > > > at the > > > > > >disk image file with a hex file editor reveals that there's more > > > > programs on > > > > > >the disk. > > > > > > > > > > > > I seem to remember something about password protection on > > a CP/M > > > > > > disk. How > > > > > >do I get around this so that I can see what else is on this image? > > > > > > > > > > It isn't password protection. Files can be marked as "system" > > files, so > > > > > that they don't show up when you do a "DIR". I think "STAT *.* > > $DIR" will > > > > > revert all hidden files back to normal. > > > > > > > > > > ----- > > > > > Jim Battle == frustum@pacbell.net > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ----- > > > Jim Battle == frustum@pacbell.net > > > > > ----- > Jim Battle == frustum@pacbell.net > > From Golemancd at aol.com Tue Nov 27 08:00:24 2001 From: Golemancd at aol.com (Golemancd@aol.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:23:51 2005 Subject: 6502 here is the url Message-ID: <67.1d7fc468.2934f678@aol.com> forgot the url or i think i got it wrong From Golemancd at aol.com Tue Nov 27 08:00:57 2001 From: Golemancd at aol.com (Golemancd@aol.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:23:51 2005 Subject: still forgot it Message-ID: <11e.80dbe69.2934f699@aol.com> http://www.free-ip.com/ From knightstalkerbob at netscape.net Tue Nov 27 08:47:18 2001 From: knightstalkerbob at netscape.net (Bob Mason) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:23:51 2005 Subject: AM radio music Message-ID: <5B42DA0D.2321EF73.CF1A260E@netscape.net> If I remember correctly, there was a machine code program printed once to play "music" with a ZX80 using this method! Bob Mason John Foust wrote: > >Time for the daily relay of an on-topic (?) post >from Slashdot: > >http://www.erikyyy.de/tempest/ > >A new twist on an old trick... Someone's written a >program that plays music on AM radios by changing >the pattern on the video screen. > >I'm sure it's only a matter of time before someone >writes a converter that "plays" sampled audio or even >MP3s in this way. > >- John > > -- Bob Mason 2x Amiga 500's, GVP A530 (40mhz 68030/68882, 8meg Fast, SCSI), 1.3/3.1, 2meg Chip, full ECS chipset, EZ135, 1084S, big harddrives, 2.2xCD Gateway Performance 500 Piece 'o Crap, 'ME, 128meg, 20Gig, flatbed. Heathkit H-89A, 64K RAM, hard and soft-sectored floppies, SigmaSoft and Systems 256K RAM Drive/Print Spooler/Graphics board HDOS 2 & CP/M 2.2.03/2.2.04 __________________________________________________________________ Your favorite stores, helpful shopping tools and great gift ideas. Experience the convenience of buying online with Shop@Netscape! http://shopnow.netscape.com/ Get your own FREE, personal Netscape Mail account today at http://webmail.netscape.com/ From dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com Tue Nov 27 09:44:52 2001 From: dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com (Douglas Quebbeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:23:51 2005 Subject: AM radio music Message-ID: <7A9BACCEF0171D4FB77019F5104CDD3722599A@jeffserver.tegjeff.com> > If I remember correctly, there was a machine code program > printed once to play "music" with a ZX80 using this method! Older. Dr. Dobb's Journal, Issue #2... 8080 code, played Daisy and something else, modulating the S-100 INT signal. -dq From edick at idcomm.com Tue Nov 27 09:17:34 2001 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:23:51 2005 Subject: 1771 floppy controller questions References: Message-ID: <000f01c17756$a3fdda20$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> Our local Gateway Electronics store has these in stock, but they actually think they're worth more than the 179x types. Neither is under $10. Fortunately, there's no associated stock issue for me. Dick ----- Original Message ----- From: "Tothwolf" To: Sent: Monday, November 26, 2001 7:36 PM Subject: Re: 1771 floppy controller questions > On Mon, 26 Nov 2001, Richard Erlacher wrote: > > From: "Ethan Dicks" > > > --- Richard Erlacher wrote: > > > > You can get one for cheap if you go down to the thrift store and buy an > > > > old TRS-80. That will cost less than a new WD1771, I'd bet. > > > > > > I'll _trade_ you an old TRS-80 for a WD1771. I haven't seen > > > non-Commodore/Apple/IBM-compatible computers* at the thrift stores > > > in a long, long time. I suspect they don't bother setting them out > > > and just trash them. > > > > Actually, my initial comment was that I'd happily junk a Coco in order > > to get a WD1773. I've got plenty of 1771's, and a few 179x's in my > > parts stock. If I needed a 1771, unlikely, but if it happened, I'd > > simply unplug one from an old "Big Board" SBC. I've got an upgrade to > > a 179x for them anyway. It's been a while since I last saw a Coco, > > and now that I know there's a 1773 in them, I'll snag one first chance > > I get. I've still got TRS-80 doc's lying about from back in the late > > '70's, but I've never owned a TRS-80. > > Well, I now have a pair of brand new WD1771 chips on hand, one for my > model 1, and one spare. A local vendor I use will sell me as many chips as > I need for $5ea. They have both the WD and National versions of the chip. > I imagine they have another 25-40+ chips left in stock, tho a good many of > them need to have their pins straightened. > > -Toth > > From cisin at xenosoft.com Tue Nov 27 11:07:27 2001 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin (XenoSoft)) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:23:51 2005 Subject: 1771 floppy controller questions In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Mon, 26 Nov 2001, Tothwolf wrote: > > > > > someone damaged it when installing the chip. I had never seen a chip with A likely possibility. I have seen occasional cases where a chip will work with a pin bent under making intermittent contact, including one OEM IBM MDA card! > > > I wonder if it would be worth soldering a new pin to what's left of that > > > chip's lead? It looked like it had just corroded off, but with no other > > > signs of moisture, I was kinda puzzled. It is rather unlikely that it would have corroded off, particularly with a gold or gold plated pin. More likely that it was broken during installation, and possibly continued to work for a while with the two broken ends pushing against each other. -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin@xenosoft.com From csmith at amdocs.com Tue Nov 27 09:21:35 2001 From: csmith at amdocs.com (Christopher Smith) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:23:51 2005 Subject: Adam Computer Message-ID: <3B55D7F383B0D31197D9009027541CBF1170DED7@cmiexch1.cmi.itds.com> I wonder whether you can get one and high-speed-dub it? :) I may try something like this, myself. I have a "buck rogers" game tape. If I'm lucky, there's more formatting than tape, and it can be copied to another tape -- or to an AIFF file for re-production. Regards, Chris Christopher Smith, Perl Developer Amdocs - Champaign, IL /usr/bin/perl -e ' print((~"\x95\xc4\xe3"^"Just Another Perl Hacker.")."\x08!\n"); ' > -----Original Message----- > From: Gary Hildebrand [mailto:ghldbrd@ccp.com] > Not much . . . except as a curiosity. I did you you should have been > able to run cp/m on it. The trick is getting formatted casette tapes. From csmith at amdocs.com Tue Nov 27 09:38:22 2001 From: csmith at amdocs.com (Christopher Smith) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:23:51 2005 Subject: one shoe down ... Message-ID: <3B55D7F383B0D31197D9009027541CBF1170DED8@cmiexch1.cmi.itds.com> > -----Original Message----- > From: John Allain [mailto:allain@panix.com] > Start? Let's see... > First VMS is renamed to OpenVMS. > Then the entirety of digital is bought out. > Then the VAX line is discontinued. > Then the Alpha Chip is discontinued. > (think this is the chronology. corrections?) Some of the above is more worrying than the rest. It would be interesting, though, to see what would have happened to VAX had it not been discontinued. Perhaps a VAX implementation over an Alpha core, along the lines of recent intel chips. > All joking aside, if PDP/RSTS is still alive, > as I think was said on this list, then add at least http://www.mentec.com/ They seem to make quite a bit of cash from the PDP stuff still. Regards, Chris Christopher Smith, Perl Developer Amdocs - Champaign, IL /usr/bin/perl -e ' print((~"\x95\xc4\xe3"^"Just Another Perl Hacker.")."\x08!\n"); ' From dittman at dittman.net Tue Nov 27 09:58:09 2001 From: dittman at dittman.net (Eric Dittman) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:23:51 2005 Subject: one shoe down ... In-Reply-To: <062e01c176fa$1f96e990$de2c67cb@helpdesk> from "Geoff Roberts" at Nov 27, 2001 02:45:18 PM Message-ID: <200111271558.fARFw9h13977@narnia.int.dittman.net> > > You can patch VMS to always return a valid status for a requested product, > > but some products request a bogus license to check if this patch is in > > place. If it is, the product will disable itself. > > Or you can run a little app that correctly creates what appears to be a > valid installed license for what particular products you wish to run, > including the version, number of license units etc. > > I have plenty of VMS licenses, including a few unlimited user non expiring > ones, and a smattering of app licenses, so I don't need it. But I can tell > you that the app in question apparently works with any LDB based product. I've written such an application, and it does work. A license generator is even better, though. > > I don't remember any of DEC's/Compaq's products checking for the patch, > > but I know of at least two third-party products that perform the check. > > They would still work with this particular method. > Just as a matter of interest, which apps? One of them was Multinet. I can't remember the other one. -- Eric Dittman dittman@dittman.net Check out the DEC Enthusiasts Club at http://www.dittman.net/ From dittman at dittman.net Tue Nov 27 09:59:33 2001 From: dittman at dittman.net (Eric Dittman) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:23:51 2005 Subject: one shoe down ... In-Reply-To: <3820E2042B6ED5118DC200D0B78EDC47066251@exc-reo1> from "Carlini, Antonio" at Nov 27, 2001 01:39:11 AM Message-ID: <200111271559.fARFxXx13989@narnia.int.dittman.net> > Never seen this done, never even heard of such an app before. > I know that at least two groups (or people) managed > to reverse engineer licence PAKs. One was even stopped > by DEC through legal action (IIRC). I know of at least two (including me). > > They would still work with this particular method. > > Just as a matter of interest, which apps? > > One of the 3rd party TCP/IP apps was reputed to do this - > possibly Multinet. It's easy enough to check since > there is a logical you can set which causes all > licence requests to be displayed on the operator > console. Which logical? -- Eric Dittman dittman@dittman.net Check out the DEC Enthusiasts Club at http://www.dittman.net/ From dtwright at uiuc.edu Tue Nov 27 09:40:05 2001 From: dtwright at uiuc.edu (Dan Wright) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:23:51 2005 Subject: IBM 5394-01B 3 1/2" diskette controller Message-ID: <20011127094005.H6311940@uiuc.edu> There are two of these available near where I work, if anyone is interested. They're about 2/3 the size of an IBM 5150 PC and each has 1 3 1/2" drive in it. They also contain disks labeled "IBM 5394 SYSTEM DISKETTE". If anyone's interested, please contact me off-list. There's no guarantee of availability as these things are not actually in my posession, but I doubt they're going anywhere :) You'd pay shipping & handling but that's it. - Dan Wright (dtwright@uiuc.edu) (http://www.uiuc.edu/~dtwright) -] ------------------------------ [-] -------------------------------- [- ``Weave a circle round him thrice, / And close your eyes with holy dread, For he on honeydew hath fed, / and drunk the milk of Paradise.'' Samuel Taylor Coleridge, Kubla Khan -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 229 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20011127/5f860eb3/attachment.bin From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Tue Nov 27 10:16:15 2001 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (Ben Franchuk) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:23:51 2005 Subject: Computer Technician's Handbook (1971) and Computer Automation PDC 808 (1968) References: <003501c1773d$b9d2e0c0$7937fea9@Guerney> Message-ID: <3C03BC4F.E8C9B2B3@jetnet.ab.ca> Phil Guerney wrote: > > At a charity book sale I turned up this book* which promised to "turn an > ordinary electronics technician into a computer maintenance specialist". And > what a wide open field it was - as it says in Chapter 1: > The book used as an example of a "Typical Small Computer" the Computer > Automation PDC 808. The picture of the roughly Altair/Imsai sized box was > actually labelled "PDC 808 Controller". The CCC list says this box was > released in May 1968 (4K of 8-bit core) and there are just a couple of > references to it on the Web I can find, and none from recent years. Well put it on line as I expect then we would know alot more about this computer and book. -- Ben Franchuk --- Pre-historic Cpu's -- www.jetnet.ab.ca/users/bfranchuk/index.html From DAW at yalepress3.unipress.yale.edu Tue Nov 27 10:41:08 2001 From: DAW at yalepress3.unipress.yale.edu (David Woyciesjes) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:23:51 2005 Subject: OT: Moving, must sell.... Message-ID: <9011A52E011ED311B4280004AC1BA615014672DF@yalepress3.unipress.yale.edu> Sorry about the OT, but some of this may be close to 10 years old... Here's the deal. I need to get rid of this stuff, before I move. It's located in New Haven, CT, ZIP 06520-9040. Make an offer. Trade is possible, but only for DEC Alpha, Vax, Sun Sparc, that kind of parts & stuff. If you want the whole pile, I can meet you somewhere, in CT, to hand the stuff to you. Easier than shipping. This will end in one week... Send me an offer, I'll reply to let you know I got it. If there are multiple bids on something, I will do a random draw next Tuesday... Let me know if you have any questions... There may possibly be more similar stuff in the pile too... --- David A Woyciesjes --- C & IS Support Specialist --- Yale University Press --- mailto:david.woyciesjes@yale.edu --- (203) 432-0953 --- ICQ # - 905818 Qty. Description ----------------------------------- 1 DTK Destop case. Dead motherboard. 200W Power Supply 1 486DX2-66 computer - 240MB (?) HDD, 5 1/4 + 3 1/2 flopy drives, modem, no RAM (uses non-parity), 200W PS 1 486DX2-66 computer - 240MB (?) HDD, 5 1/4 + 3 1/2 flopy drives, Network, no RAM (uses non-parity), 200W PS 1 486DX2-66 computer - 240MB (?) HDD, no RAM (uses non-parity), 200W PS 1 DTK Tower case, 250W PS, two 3 1/2 floppies 1 486DX-33 tower - 3 1/2 floppy, video, network, no RAM (uses 30 pin), 200W PS 1 486DX-33 tower - Two 3 1/2 floppies, video, no RAM (uses 30 pin), 250W PS 1 486DX-33 tower - 5 1/4 floppy, video, no RAM (uses 30 pin), 250W PS 7 Loose motherboards, 486 (SX + DX) 2 Loose motherboards, Pentium 75, Uses Parity Memory? 2 HP ScanJet Plus Scanners 1 HP ScanJet Plus Scanner Interface Kit (software + docs) 4 AT plug keyboards 3 Serial port mice 2 PS/2 port mice 3 Loose 3 1/2 floppy drives 1 Loose 5 1/4 floppy drive 2 CD ROMs - 1 is funny panasonic (?) interface, other (Sony) has proprietary interface included 1 Dell replacement floppy drive, instructions, and bay adaptor 4 ISA I/O Card - Floppy, IDE, COM ports, LPT: port... 1 ISA-VLB bus I/O Card - Floppy, IDE, COM ports, LPT: port... 1 Promise IDE ISA slot card 5 ISA modems ( 3 have Mic + Spkr ports) 2 Creative Labs ISA sound cards 1 Aztec/Packard Bell ISA sound/modem combo card 1 FX-3D ISA sound card 3 Cirrus Logic ISA-VLB video cards 5 ISA video cards 1 Intel ISA 8/16 LAN adapter 3 ISA SCSI cards ? 256 kB, & 1 MB non-parity 30-pin memory ? 256 kB, & 1 MB parity 30-pin memory Couple dozen IDE hard drives from 240 to 500 MB From tothwolf at concentric.net Tue Nov 27 12:00:25 2001 From: tothwolf at concentric.net (Tothwolf) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:23:52 2005 Subject: 1771 floppy controller questions In-Reply-To: <000f01c17756$a3fdda20$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> Message-ID: On Tue, 27 Nov 2001, Richard Erlacher wrote: > From: "Tothwolf" > > > Well, I now have a pair of brand new WD1771 chips on hand, one for my > > model 1, and one spare. A local vendor I use will sell me as many chips as > > I need for $5ea. They have both the WD and National versions of the chip. > > I imagine they have another 25-40+ chips left in stock, tho a good many of > > them need to have their pins straightened. > > Our local Gateway Electronics store has these in stock, but they > actually think they're worth more than the 179x types. Neither is > under $10. Fortunately, there's no associated stock issue for me. Maybe that's where my vendor originally got their price from? They actually thought the 1771 was worth more then $20ea...Thanks to the tip about B.G. Micro selling the chip for $5, my vendor decided to match the price. -Toth From tothwolf at concentric.net Tue Nov 27 12:07:00 2001 From: tothwolf at concentric.net (Tothwolf) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:23:52 2005 Subject: 1771 floppy controller questions In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Tue, 27 Nov 2001, Fred Cisin (XenoSoft) wrote: > On Mon, 26 Nov 2001, Tothwolf wrote: > > > > > > someone damaged it when installing the chip. I had never seen a chip with > > A likely possibility. I have seen occasional cases where a chip will > work with a pin bent under making intermittent contact, including one > OEM IBM MDA card! I've seen this more than a few times myself, even on modern computer boards... > > > > I wonder if it would be worth soldering a new pin to what's left of that > > > > chip's lead? It looked like it had just corroded off, but with no other > > > > signs of moisture, I was kinda puzzled. > > It is rather unlikely that it would have corroded off, particularly > with a gold or gold plated pin. More likely that it was broken during > installation, and possibly continued to work for a while with the two > broken ends pushing against each other. It could be that it was bent under, still in contact with the socket's contact, and due to moisture/thermal stresses, the weakened metal eventually broke. The other half of the lead wasn't in the socket, so this seems to be a likely scenario. -Toth From mcguire at neurotica.com Tue Nov 27 12:20:32 2001 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:23:52 2005 Subject: Adam Computer In-Reply-To: RE: Adam Computer (Christopher Smith) References: <3B55D7F383B0D31197D9009027541CBF1170DED7@cmiexch1.cmi.itds.com> Message-ID: <15363.55664.734796.180444@phaduka.neurotica.com> On November 27, Christopher Smith wrote: > I wonder whether you can get one and high-speed-dub it? :) > > I may try something like this, myself. I have a "buck rogers" game tape. > If I'm lucky, there's more formatting than tape, and it can be copied to > another tape -- or to an AIFF file for re-production. Aren't the Adam's tape drives [relatively] high-speed digital, rather than analog/audio/FSK units? -Dave -- Dave McGuire St. Petersburg, FL From csmith at amdocs.com Tue Nov 27 13:51:22 2001 From: csmith at amdocs.com (Christopher Smith) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:23:52 2005 Subject: Adam Computer Message-ID: <3B55D7F383B0D31197D9009027541CBF1170DEE0@cmiexch1.cmi.itds.com> I don't know, actually. I might take a look at it later. Chris Christopher Smith, Perl Developer Amdocs - Champaign, IL /usr/bin/perl -e ' print((~"\x95\xc4\xe3"^"Just Another Perl Hacker.")."\x08!\n"); ' > -----Original Message----- > From: Dave McGuire [mailto:mcguire@neurotica.com] > Aren't the Adam's tape drives [relatively] high-speed > digital, rather > than analog/audio/FSK units? From SUPRDAVE at aol.com Tue Nov 27 12:55:16 2001 From: SUPRDAVE at aol.com (SUPRDAVE@aol.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:23:52 2005 Subject: Tandy PC-4 pocket computer Message-ID: Some guy sent me one for free and just got some new batteries in it. Powers on and says READY P0 but can't figure out anything else. Google coming up 404 for usability info on this thing. How do you work this thing? From msell at ontimesupport.com Tue Nov 27 13:45:10 2001 From: msell at ontimesupport.com (Matthew Sell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:23:52 2005 Subject: Tandy PC-4 pocket computer In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20011127134400.0295d888@127.0.0.1> I wish I could find mine and get it running again. Boy, did I have some fun with that thing..... That really brings back memories..... unfortunately, I don't know where the manual is at to help you..... - Matt At 01:55 PM 11/27/2001 -0500, you wrote: >Some guy sent me one for free and just got some new batteries in it. Powers >on and says READY P0 but can't figure out anything else. Google coming up 404 >for usability info on this thing. How do you work this thing? Matthew Sell Programmer On Time Support, Inc. www.ontimesupport.com (281) 296-6066 Join the Metrology Software discussion group METLIST! http://www.ontimesupport.com/cgi-bin/mojo/mojo.cgi "One World, One Web, One Program" - Microsoft Promotional Ad "Ein Volk, Ein Reich, Ein Fuhrer" - Adolf Hitler Many thanks for this tagline to a fellow RGVAC'er... From csmith at amdocs.com Tue Nov 27 13:55:14 2001 From: csmith at amdocs.com (Christopher Smith) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:23:52 2005 Subject: Tandy PC-4 pocket computer Message-ID: <3B55D7F383B0D31197D9009027541CBF1170DEE1@cmiexch1.cmi.itds.com> I have one somewhere. Been a while since I've used it. IIRC, there are a few different modes. One for running programs, one for writing them (in basic), possibly also some more standard calculator modes. I got a sharp portable computer, and liked that a lot better, actually, but my LCD screen cracked :( Basically you find the right mode for what you want to do, and just go. It's a pretty simple machine by common standards. Regards, Chris Christopher Smith, Perl Developer Amdocs - Champaign, IL /usr/bin/perl -e ' print((~"\x95\xc4\xe3"^"Just Another Perl Hacker.")."\x08!\n"); ' > -----Original Message----- > From: SUPRDAVE@aol.com [mailto:SUPRDAVE@aol.com] > Sent: Tuesday, November 27, 2001 12:55 PM > To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org > Subject: Tandy PC-4 pocket computer > > > Some guy sent me one for free and just got some new batteries > in it. Powers > on and says READY P0 but can't figure out anything else. > Google coming up 404 > for usability info on this thing. How do you work this thing? > From Antonio.Carlini at riverstonenet.com Tue Nov 27 14:10:45 2001 From: Antonio.Carlini at riverstonenet.com (Carlini, Antonio) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:23:52 2005 Subject: one shoe down ... Message-ID: <3820E2042B6ED5118DC200D0B78EDC47066255@exc-reo1> >> One of the 3rd party TCP/IP apps was reputed to do this - >> possibly Multinet. It's easy enough to check since >> there is a logical you can set which causes all >> licence requests to be displayed on the operator >> console. > >Which logical? LMF$DISPLAY_OPCOM_MESSAGE It needs to be /EXEC/SYSTEM, otherwise any herbert could overflow your LA36 :-) It was documented by mistake and then had to be explicitly documented as "don't do this" because lots of products go and check for any of the umpteen licences that *might* let them run. It's only a few (non-DEC) products that actually check for non-existant licences and require that the check fail. Antonio From mranalog at home.com Tue Nov 27 14:23:33 2001 From: mranalog at home.com (Doug Coward) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:23:52 2005 Subject: *HELP* - How do I temporarily unsubscribe? Message-ID: <3C03F645.7A45D1D6@home.com> Shaun Stephenson wrote: > Hi all > Quickie which I need a quick reply to - > How do I tempoarily suspend recieving posts from the group? I'm on > holiday for 2 weeks very soon (1.5 days!) and don't fancy a few thousand > posts in my mail when I return. When you leave on vacation set your subscribtion to the DIGEST list. You will receive only one email every 20 or so hours and that way you don't miss anything. I ran into a little trouble myself. It appears that the name of the list is just "classiccmp" and not "classiccmp-list" as the help message suggests. I'm always on the digest list. The name of the digest list is "classiccmp-digest". So I assume to change to digest you need to send a message to majordomo@classiccmp.org and in the body say: unsubscribe classiccmp subscribe classiccmp-digest end Of course then you have to send back the authorization key before you are actually on the digest. Regards, --Doug ========================================= Doug Coward @ home in Poulsbo, WA Analog Computer Online Museum and History Center http://www.best.com/~dcoward/analog ========================================= From DAW at yalepress3.unipress.yale.edu Tue Nov 27 14:52:59 2001 From: DAW at yalepress3.unipress.yale.edu (David Woyciesjes) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:23:52 2005 Subject: one shoe down ... Message-ID: <9011A52E011ED311B4280004AC1BA615014672ED@yalepress3.unipress.yale.edu> Well, I just sent in my registration for the free Basic membership... Haven't _needed_ to be a member before, but things may get better this year.. :-) --- David A Woyciesjes --- C & IS Support Specialist --- Yale University Press --- mailto:david.woyciesjes@yale.edu --- (203) 432-0953 --- ICQ # - 905818 ! -----Original Message----- ! From: Brian Wheeler [mailto:bdwheele@indiana.edu] ! Sent: Monday, November 26, 2001 3:38 PM ! To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org ! Subject: Re: one shoe down ... ! ! ! On Mon, 2001-11-26 at 14:03, Chuck McManis wrote: ! > Well the "new" Encompass site is updated and guess what, no ! "free DECUS" ! > memberships anymore, now its $79.99 "early bird special" ! and $99.99 regular ! > membership. No doubt when they become HP it will be even ! more irrelevant to ! > the cause of preserving old DEC gear. I sure hope they ! offer lifetime VAX ! > licenses at some point. ! > ! > --Chuck ! ! ! Are you sure? Looking at the "i want to re-enlist form" at ! https://safe2.sba.com/encompass/MemberForm.cfm ! ! It only looks like money is required if you're going to become a ! sustaining member... ! ! Of course there is a monster note on the page before: ! "Join or Renew Today - BASIC and SUSTAINING membership will only be ! available until December 31, 2001!" ! ! Brian ! From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Nov 27 15:15:37 2001 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:23:52 2005 Subject: Tandy PC-4 pocket computer In-Reply-To: from "SUPRDAVE@aol.com" at Nov 27, 1 01:55:16 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1484 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20011127/11077b16/attachment.ksh From vcf at vintage.org Tue Nov 27 16:20:01 2001 From: vcf at vintage.org (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:23:52 2005 Subject: Apple ][ joystick? Message-ID: Who was the fellow looking for an Apple ][ joystick? I have one for you. E-mail me privately. Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org * Old computing resources for business and academia at www.VintageTech.com * From MTPro at aol.com Tue Nov 27 22:03:12 2001 From: MTPro at aol.com (MTPro@aol.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:23:52 2005 Subject: Is it a Lisa or Mac XL?! Message-ID: <8d.ff46b05.2935bc00@aol.com> I've been following all of the great Lisa discussion. People get very messed up with the "what's a Lisa 2 and what's a Mac XL" criteria. If the machine in question has not been adulterated with a ROM upgrade or screen modification, etc., it can run the Lisa OS - any Lisa 2 or Mac XL. All Mac XLs are Lisa 2s, Apple merely renamed them in 1985. The "plain" Lisa 2 is the same as the Lisa 2/5, just with no external 5 mb Profile hard drive. It was generally not sold without a hard drive, as it was basically useless without one. Here's the breakdown on differences per the Lisa/Macintosh XL Do-it-yourself Guide - Lisa 2: The Lisa 2 has one 3.5-inch 400K disk drive, different disk drive controller circuitry, and a redesigned front panel to accommodate the single 3.5-inch drive opening. A 400K floppy controller, labeled the "Lisa Lite Adapter," is mounted inside the disk drive cage. The System I/0 board is socketed for an AMD 9512 arithmetic processor. It has nickel-cadmium battery backup for the real time clock. One 512K memory board is standard. The mother board has a mouse connector, two serial connectors, and an external parallel connector. The power supply is rated 1.2 A. Lisa 2/10: The Lisa 2/10 has a completely different motherboard. The mouse connector is different. There's no external parallel connector on the back of the computer. Instead, there's an internal parallel connector and a 10MB internal I hard drive. An interrupt switch has been added. The system I/0 board is also different. There's no socket for the AMD 9512 coprocessor. There's no nickel-cadmium battery backup for the real time clock. The disk drive controller is different. An extra chip on the 1/0 board replaces the Lisa Lite Adapter which was formerly located in the drive cage. The disk drive cabling is different. The wiring harness is different. The power supply is different. One megabyte of RAM is standard. If you have Lisa OS disks, a 10MB internal hard drive, no Lisa Lite card, no external parallel connector, and a 1.8-A 110/220V power supply, yours is at least a Lisa 2/10. Macintosh XL: The Macintosh XL is exactly the same as a Lisa 2/10. Only the sticker on the box, the operating system, and the instruction manuals are different. Instead of Lisa OS, the bundled OS is Macintosh System software and MacWorks XL, a Lisa program which allows 64K Macintosh ROM emulation. If you have MacWorks XL instead of Lisa OS disks, a 10MB internal hard drive, no Lisa Lite card, and a 1.8-A power supply, yours is probably a MacintoshXL. A lot of people confuse the hardware differences as coming about due to the renaming, but this was not the case. When Sun Remarketing in Logan, Utah bought up the bulk of remaining "Mac XLs" from Apple they slowly began tweaking them to make them more Mac-like. My first Lisa which I bought from them in December 1989 for $1095 had started life as a Lisa 2/5. Sun Remarketing had installed the screen modification kit (giving it square pixels like a Mac instead of it's native rectangular ones), Mac Plus 128k ROMs to support the installed 800k drive and a Sun Remarketing installed internal 20 mb hard drive. The hard drive was interesting because it was installed internally, yet it's cable extended under the rear cage cover to attach to the external parallel port. Ok, ok, I go on and on. Interesting stuff eh? Best, David Greelish Publisher Classic Computing Press www.classiccomputing.com From jhellige at earthlink.net Wed Nov 28 04:07:55 2001 From: jhellige at earthlink.net (Jeff Hellige) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:23:52 2005 Subject: Is it a Lisa or Mac XL?! In-Reply-To: <8d.ff46b05.2935bc00@aol.com> References: <8d.ff46b05.2935bc00@aol.com> Message-ID: >A lot of people confuse the hardware differences as coming about due to the >renaming, but this was not the case. When Sun Remarketing in Logan, Utah >bought up the bulk of remaining "Mac XLs" from Apple they slowly began >tweaking them to make them more Mac-like. My first Lisa which I bought from >them in December 1989 for $1095 had started life as a Lisa 2/5. Sun >Remarketing had installed the screen modification kit (giving it square >pixels like a Mac instead of it's native rectangular ones), Mac Plus 128k >ROMs to support the installed 800k drive and a Sun Remarketing installed >internal 20 mb hard drive. The hard drive was interesting because it was >installed internally, yet it's cable extended under the rear cage cover to >attach to the external parallel port. Ok, ok, I go on and on. Interesting >stuff eh? Best, Thanks for taking the time to type all of that. Now if only someone would come up with a list cross-referencing the model#'s to the various machines. Mine is basically identical to the one you list above as the one you bought from Sun, including the wierd 20MB internal drive, plus the addition of the SCSI card. I took my Profile apart the other night and any hopes of swapping another drive in there were dashed since the ST506 has an Apple-specific board on it. Jeff -- Home of the TRS-80 Model 2000 FAQ File http://www.cchaven.com http://www.geocities.com/siliconvalley/lakes/6757 From curt at atari-history.com Wed Nov 28 08:04:46 2001 From: curt at atari-history.com (Curt Vendel) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:23:52 2005 Subject: Is it a Lisa or Mac XL?! References: <8d.ff46b05.2935bc00@aol.com> Message-ID: <003c01c17815$a41524e0$38b1ff0a@cvendel> Jeff, The ST506 is a standard MFM drive, you can still find drives like the ST225 to replace it, mind you its only 20MB's, not much, but it bets the 5MB drive in the Profile. Interesting you mentioned the screen mod, I didn't know about that, there used to be a guy in Queens, NY who dealt only in Lisa/Mac XL's and I was given a Lisa 2/5 by a friend sometime in 88-89, it had the 5.25" front plate but no drives inside and I had bought from this guy in Queens a lot of the upgrades, but was never aware of a screen upgrade, I always liked the bigger screen anyway. Curt ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jeff Hellige" To: Sent: Wednesday, November 28, 2001 5:07 AM Subject: Re: Is it a Lisa or Mac XL?! > >A lot of people confuse the hardware differences as coming about due to the > >renaming, but this was not the case. When Sun Remarketing in Logan, Utah > >bought up the bulk of remaining "Mac XLs" from Apple they slowly began > >tweaking them to make them more Mac-like. My first Lisa which I bought from > >them in December 1989 for $1095 had started life as a Lisa 2/5. Sun > >Remarketing had installed the screen modification kit (giving it square > >pixels like a Mac instead of it's native rectangular ones), Mac Plus 128k > >ROMs to support the installed 800k drive and a Sun Remarketing installed > >internal 20 mb hard drive. The hard drive was interesting because it was > >installed internally, yet it's cable extended under the rear cage cover to > >attach to the external parallel port. Ok, ok, I go on and on. Interesting > >stuff eh? Best, > > Thanks for taking the time to type all of that. Now if only > someone would come up with a list cross-referencing the model#'s to > the various machines. Mine is basically identical to the one you > list above as the one you bought from Sun, including the wierd 20MB > internal drive, plus the addition of the SCSI card. > > I took my Profile apart the other night and any hopes of > swapping another drive in there were dashed since the ST506 has an > Apple-specific board on it. > > Jeff > -- > Home of the TRS-80 Model 2000 FAQ File > http://www.cchaven.com > http://www.geocities.com/siliconvalley/lakes/6757 > From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Nov 28 17:04:42 2001 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:23:52 2005 Subject: Is it a Lisa or Mac XL?! In-Reply-To: <003c01c17815$a41524e0$38b1ff0a@cvendel> from "Curt Vendel" at Nov 28, 1 09:04:46 am Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 814 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20011128/a023da71/attachment.ksh From dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com Wed Nov 28 07:08:40 2001 From: dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com (Douglas Quebbeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:23:52 2005 Subject: Is it a Lisa or Mac XL?! Message-ID: <7A9BACCEF0171D4FB77019F5104CDD372259AA@jeffserver.tegjeff.com> > I took my Profile apart the other night and any hopes of > swapping another drive in there were dashed since the ST506 has an > Apple-specific board on it. isn't the apple-specific board piggy-backed onto the board that's there in a non-apple version of the drive? -dq From jhellige at earthlink.net Wed Nov 28 06:49:48 2001 From: jhellige at earthlink.net (Jeff Hellige) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:23:52 2005 Subject: Is it a Lisa or Mac XL?! In-Reply-To: <7A9BACCEF0171D4FB77019F5104CDD372259AA@jeffserver.tegjeff.com> References: <7A9BACCEF0171D4FB77019F5104CDD372259AA@jeffserver.tegjeff.com> Message-ID: <01Nov28.142002est.119196@gateway.mediacen.navy.mil> > > I took my Profile apart the other night and any hopes of >> swapping another drive in there were dashed since the ST506 has an >> Apple-specific board on it. > >isn't the apple-specific board piggy-backed onto the >board that's there in a non-apple version of the drive? Just from looking at the one in the Profile, and not having another 506 to directly compare it to, it looks like the Apple board is being used in place of whatever circuit card it would normally have. In fact, the interface to the drive is a single ribbon cable coming in from the side vice the dual data/control cables normally associated with the 506-type drives. Jeff -- Home of the TRS-80 Model 2000 FAQ File http://www.cchaven.com http://www.geocities.com/siliconvalley/lakes/6757 From foo at siconic.com Wed Nov 28 14:28:53 2001 From: foo at siconic.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:23:52 2005 Subject: Is it a Lisa or Mac XL?! In-Reply-To: <01Nov28.142002est.119196@gateway.mediacen.navy.mil> Message-ID: On Wed, 28 Nov 2001, Jeff Hellige wrote: > Just from looking at the one in the Profile, and not having > another 506 to directly compare it to, it looks like the Apple board > is being used in place of whatever circuit card it would normally > have. In fact, the interface to the drive is a single ribbon cable > coming in from the side vice the dual data/control cables normally > associated with the 506-type drives. Jeff, you are correct. For whatever reason that Apple had a habit of, the normal board was replaced by a custom Apple board. I doubt you could drop in a non-Apple replacement drive and have it work. Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org From csmith at amdocs.com Wed Nov 28 10:15:58 2001 From: csmith at amdocs.com (Christopher Smith) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:23:52 2005 Subject: Is it a Lisa or Mac XL?! Message-ID: <3B55D7F383B0D31197D9009027541CBF1170DEEB@cmiexch1.cmi.itds.com> > -----Original Message----- > From: MTPro@aol.com [mailto:MTPro@aol.com] > question has not been adulterated with a ROM upgrade or > screen modification, > etc., it can run the Lisa OS - any Lisa 2 or Mac XL. All Mac > XLs are Lisa 2s, Well, the screen-mod isn't necessarily a show-stopper. Lisa OS really doesn't care, from my limited experience with just the kind of Mac XL you speak of at the end of this post. You can pull the glue off of a couple of pots in the monitor (clearly labeled at that, IIRC), and adjust the aspect ratio of the screen back to normal Lisa style. > Macintosh XL: The Macintosh XL is exactly the same as a Lisa > 2/10. Only the > sticker on the box, the operating system, and the instruction > manuals are > different. Instead of Lisa OS, the bundled OS is Macintosh > System software > and MacWorks XL, a Lisa program which allows 64K Macintosh > ROM emulation. If > you have MacWorks XL instead of Lisa OS disks, a 10MB > internal hard drive, no > Lisa Lite card, and a 1.8-A power supply, yours is probably a > MacintoshXL. It should be noted here that the Macintosh system software is arguably not the operating system in this case. (MacWorks is... If I understand correctly it's slightly more of an emulation than simply providing the toolbox ROM.) > them in December 1989 for $1095 had started life as a Lisa 2/5. Sun > Remarketing had installed the screen modification kit (giving > it square > pixels like a Mac instead of it's native rectangular ones), Again, I think "installed the screen modification kit" might be giving them too much credit, since it seemed with mine that they only did some pot tweaking. :) > Mac Plus 128k > ROMs to support the installed 800k drive and a Sun > Remarketing installed Now this is interesting. As I mentioned in a previous post, they had something in mind called an "XLerator," which seemed to be a daughterboard kind of setup that took the place of the entire 68k cpu, and replaced it with a conglomeration of Mac junk. :) (No offense to Mac people, but I wanted a Lisa, and this prevented Lisa OS from booting ;) I may at some point try to get that CPU board working (by which I mean, actually booting Lisa OS) again. Regards, Chris Christopher Smith, Perl Developer Amdocs - Champaign, IL /usr/bin/perl -e ' print((~"\x95\xc4\xe3"^"Just Another Perl Hacker.")."\x08!\n"); ' From csmith at amdocs.com Wed Nov 28 10:22:19 2001 From: csmith at amdocs.com (Christopher Smith) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:23:52 2005 Subject: Is it a Lisa or Mac XL?! Message-ID: <3B55D7F383B0D31197D9009027541CBF1170DEEC@cmiexch1.cmi.itds.com> > -----Original Message----- > From: Jeff Hellige [mailto:jhellige@earthlink.net] > I took my Profile apart the other night and any hopes of > swapping another drive in there were dashed since the ST506 has an > Apple-specific board on it. Tried that, myself -- just as a curiosity. As you said, it's kind of weird in there. I wonder, though, whether there's an easier way to do it. Maybe the HD adaptors that came with the newer ones (for internal disks) were standard enough to have something else plugged in. (haven't checked) It would be interesting to have a Maxtor in a Lisa. They were about 150 megabytes. Better if the SCSI port actually could be used to boot the machine. Regards, Chris Christopher Smith, Perl Developer Amdocs - Champaign, IL /usr/bin/perl -e ' print((~"\x95\xc4\xe3"^"Just Another Perl Hacker.")."\x08!\n"); ' From donm at cts.com Wed Nov 28 16:53:56 2001 From: donm at cts.com (Don Maslin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:23:52 2005 Subject: Is it a Lisa or Mac XL?! In-Reply-To: <3B55D7F383B0D31197D9009027541CBF1170DEEC@cmiexch1.cmi.itds.com> Message-ID: On Wed, 28 Nov 2001, Christopher Smith wrote: > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: Jeff Hellige [mailto:jhellige@earthlink.net] > > > I took my Profile apart the other night and any hopes of > > swapping another drive in there were dashed since the ST506 has an > > Apple-specific board on it. > > Tried that, myself -- just as a curiosity. As you said, it's kind of weird > in there. > > I wonder, though, whether there's an easier way to do it. Maybe the HD > adaptors that came with the newer ones (for internal disks) were standard > enough to have something else plugged in. (haven't checked) > > It would be interesting to have a Maxtor used for the RD54> in a Lisa. They were about 150 megabytes. Better if the > SCSI port actually could be used to boot the machine. That was the Maxtor XT-2190, but remember it was a full-high 5.25" drive. - don > Regards, > > Chris > > > Christopher Smith, Perl Developer > Amdocs - Champaign, IL > > /usr/bin/perl -e ' > print((~"\x95\xc4\xe3"^"Just Another Perl Hacker.")."\x08!\n"); > ' > > From foo at siconic.com Wed Nov 28 11:59:37 2001 From: foo at siconic.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:23:52 2005 Subject: Is it a Lisa or Mac XL?! In-Reply-To: <8d.ff46b05.2935bc00@aol.com> Message-ID: On Tue, 27 Nov 2001 MTPro@aol.com wrote: > Lisa 2: The Lisa 2 has one 3.5-inch 400K disk drive, different disk > drive controller circuitry, and a redesigned front panel to > accommodate the single 3.5-inch drive opening. A 400K floppy > controller, labeled the "Lisa Lite Adapter," is mounted inside the > disk drive cage. The System I/0 board is socketed for an AMD 9512 > arithmetic processor. It has nickel-cadmium battery backup for the > real time clock. One 512K memory board is standard. The mother board > has a mouse connector, two serial connectors, and an external parallel > connector. The power supply is rated 1.2 A. I'll add that the Lisa 2 is actually an upgraded Lisa 1. When Apple's Twiggy drives proved troublesome, Apple apparently offered an upgrade to anyone with a Lisa to replace the Twiggy's with a Sony 3.5" drive. So you got a new drive assembly and front panel, and returned the old ones. Most people took advantage of this upgrade, which is why it's so hard to find an original Lisa these days. Since the Lisa 2 is simply a Lisa with new drive and front panel, it's possible to reverse the upgrade and end up with an original Lisa, however, good luck finding the front panel or Twiggy drives. I have heard of one fellow in Australia who was able to round up all the necessary parts and ended up with an original Lisa. You can tell if you have an actual Lisa 2 (as opposed to a 2/10) by looking at the I/O ports on the back panel. If you have the following buttons and ports, in order from left to right, then you most likely have a Lisa upgraded to a Lisa 2: RESET VIDEO OUT PARALLEL DEVICE MOUSE SERIAL DEVICE A SERIAL DEVICE B Also, as mentioned by David, the power supply is rated at 1.2A. If you don't have this configuration then you have the newer re-designed Lisa 2/10. Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org From dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com Wed Nov 28 12:40:10 2001 From: dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com (Douglas Quebbeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:23:52 2005 Subject: Is it a Lisa or Mac XL?! Message-ID: <7A9BACCEF0171D4FB77019F5104CDD372259B7@jeffserver.tegjeff.com> > I'll add that the Lisa 2 is actually an upgraded Lisa 1. When Apple's > Twiggy drives proved troublesome, Apple apparently offered an upgrade to > anyone with a Lisa to replace the Twiggy's with a Sony 3.5" drive. So you > got a new drive assembly and front panel, and returned the old ones. > Most people took advantage of this upgrade, which is why it's so hard to > find an original Lisa these days. It's time for a group of us to find the Utah landfill where they dumped the Lisa inventory 15 years ago... Since you can find undecayed hotdogs from the 1960s in a landfill, I'm thinking the Lisas should be well preserved... -dq From mythtech at Mac.com Wed Nov 28 14:58:20 2001 From: mythtech at Mac.com (Chris) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:23:52 2005 Subject: Is it a Lisa or Mac XL?! Message-ID: >It's time for a group of us to find the Utah landfill >where they dumped the Lisa inventory 15 years ago... > >Since you can find undecayed hotdogs from the 1960s >in a landfill, I'm thinking the Lisas should be well >preserved... I think I read somewhere, that Apple had guards watching the landfill until they were satisfied that all the lisa's had been crushed beyond hope. But who knows, that could just be a story, and they may all be sitting in a pile somewhere waiting to be booted. -chris From george at racsys.rt.rain.com Wed Nov 28 15:23:36 2001 From: george at racsys.rt.rain.com (George Leo Rachor Jr.) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:23:52 2005 Subject: Is it a Lisa or Mac XL?! In-Reply-To: Message-ID: I understand discontinuing a product but could never quite figure out why you would actually destroy equipment. I mean what is the point? George ========================================================= George L. Rachor Jr. george@rachors.com Hillsboro, Oregon http://rachors.com United States of America Amateur Radio : KD7DCX On Wed, 28 Nov 2001, Chris wrote: > I think I read somewhere, that Apple had guards watching the landfill > until they were satisfied that all the lisa's had been crushed beyond > hope. But who knows, that could just be a story, and they may all be > sitting in a pile somewhere waiting to be booted. > > -chris > > > > From erd_6502 at yahoo.com Wed Nov 28 19:15:14 2001 From: erd_6502 at yahoo.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:23:52 2005 Subject: Is it a Lisa or Mac XL?! In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20011129011514.46604.qmail@web20101.mail.yahoo.com> --- "George Leo Rachor Jr." wrote: > I understand discontinuing a product but could never quite figure out why > you would actually destroy equipment. I mean what is the point? Scrapping them off the books for tax purposes, in all likelyhood. We used to have to physically destroy our COMBOARDs before we could write them off. If we were ever audited and happened to have product that was logged as scrap, but hadn't been, we would have been in a world of hurt from either the County Tax officials or perhaps the IRS. It sucks, but if you scrap hardware, you have to render it useless. -ethan __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! GeoCities - quick and easy web site hosting, just $8.95/month. http://geocities.yahoo.com/ps/info1 From dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com Wed Nov 28 15:11:40 2001 From: dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com (Douglas Quebbeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:23:52 2005 Subject: Is it a Lisa or Mac XL?! Message-ID: <7A9BACCEF0171D4FB77019F5104CDD372259BD@jeffserver.tegjeff.com> > On Wed, 28 Nov 2001, Jeff Hellige wrote: > > > Just from looking at the one in the Profile, and not having > > another 506 to directly compare it to, it looks like the Apple board > > is being used in place of whatever circuit card it would normally > > have. In fact, the interface to the drive is a single ribbon cable > > coming in from the side vice the dual data/control cables normally > > associated with the 506-type drives. > > Jeff, you are correct. For whatever reason that Apple had a habit of, the > normal board was replaced by a custom Apple board. I doubt you could drop > in a non-Apple replacement drive and have it work. Perhaps he could pull that board from the Lisa drive and slap it onto the generic version of the same drive? Just a thought... -dq From CordaAJ at nswc.navy.mil Wed Nov 28 15:52:24 2001 From: CordaAJ at nswc.navy.mil (Corda Albert J DLVA) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:23:52 2005 Subject: Is it a Lisa or Mac XL?! Message-ID: <7B4C28C84831D211BFA200805F9F34561A8F29@nswcdlvaex04.nswc.navy.mil> Wow! We could finally claim that we are _real_ computer archeologists... The kind that use a shovel and pick! If we look hard enough, we might even find an SGI Jurrasic Classic, or a Predator rack! Sounds fun! -al- -acorda@1bigred.com > -----Original Message----- > From: Douglas Quebbeman [mailto:dhquebbeman@theestopinalgroup.com] > Sent: Wednesday, November 28, 2001 1:40 PM > To: 'classiccmp@classiccmp.org' > Subject: RE: Is it a Lisa or Mac XL?! > > > > I'll add that the Lisa 2 is actually an upgraded Lisa 1. > When Apple's > > Twiggy drives proved troublesome, Apple apparently offered > an upgrade to > > anyone with a Lisa to replace the Twiggy's with a Sony 3.5" > drive. So you > > got a new drive assembly and front panel, and returned the > old ones. > > Most people took advantage of this upgrade, which is why > it's so hard to > > find an original Lisa these days. > > It's time for a group of us to find the Utah landfill > where they dumped the Lisa inventory 15 years ago... > > Since you can find undecayed hotdogs from the 1960s > in a landfill, I'm thinking the Lisas should be well > preserved... > > -dq > From dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com Wed Nov 28 16:03:40 2001 From: dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com (Douglas Quebbeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:23:52 2005 Subject: Is it a Lisa or Mac XL?! Message-ID: <7A9BACCEF0171D4FB77019F5104CDD372259BE@jeffserver.tegjeff.com> > I understand discontinuing a product but could never quite figure out why > you would actually destroy equipment. I mean what is the point? I'd imagine they were concerned about 10,000 MacXLs cutting into the selling of Mac 512ke & Mac Plus models... OTOH, if it happened during the Jobs era, no logic or reason was likely involved; Jobs has a proven track record of killing Apple products he personally dislikes. But pepsiboy may have been Lisa's nail-in-the-coffin, I just can't recall... -dq From mythtech at Mac.com Wed Nov 28 16:11:32 2001 From: mythtech at Mac.com (Chris) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:23:52 2005 Subject: Is it a Lisa or Mac XL?! Message-ID: >I understand discontinuing a product but could never quite figure out why >you would actually destroy equipment. I mean what is the point? I suppose this was apple logic, they wanted you to buy something OTHER than the lisa, so they had the choice of sell off/give away all the discontinued lisa's (they didn't want them being used, so that was out of the question)... or junk them. If you just normal junk them (haul them to the scrap yard and dump them in a pile), you risk the very real possibility that the scrapper will salvage them and sell them off (makes sense, they ARE in the buying and selling scrap business)... which again, means they would be in the market, something apple didn't want... only NOW they would be in the market and apple didn't get a buck. So by destroying them beyond hope... they remove them from the market 100%. I personally think this is stupid, but hey, I don't run apple, and they seem to have their own form of logic. And then there is always the chance it was just a Jobs thing. IIRC, he was more or less in charge when this was done, and he worked more on the mac then the lisa (even though, I think the original lisa specs were his idea)... so to Jobs and the ever expanding ego, he wanted to rub salt in the wounds of the Lisa team, by not only showing that the lisa didn't sell as well... but that thousands of unsold ones were turned into dust at apple's expense. I that logic is why it might be a while before Apple comes out with anything that might resemble a Newton (since the Newton was Scully's baby, and Scully was in charge when Jobs was outsted). I don't think it was a co-incidence that the first thing Jobs did on his return was violently kill off the newton... and I think it will be a while before his ego will allow a return of a similar product... the iPod is probably paving the way to erase the Newton memory, so when one DOES come out, it will be seen as an advanced iPod, not as a Newton II. Just my 2 cents -chris From jhellige at earthlink.net Wed Nov 28 17:10:25 2001 From: jhellige at earthlink.net (Jeff Hellige) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:23:52 2005 Subject: Is it a Lisa or Mac XL?! In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: >So by destroying them beyond hope... they remove them from the market >100%. Then you've got the other end of the spectrum....When the Model 2000 didn't sell as well as they'd hoped, Tandy killed it with huge amounts of stock still onhand. Initial reviews of the machine were still showing up in magazines after it had been killed and it hung around in the catalogs for a year or so after. Tandy then stuck the remaining machines, which was a considerable number, in the backs of stores, in wharehouses and who knows where else. Tandy eventually made all the stores purchase one to use as a POS system and then nearly 5 years after it's introduction Tandy finally liquidated whatever stock they had left onhnad in a big fire sale. By then a non-compatible clone wasn't worth much even though it was still a respectable performer. Jeff -- Home of the TRS-80 Model 2000 FAQ File http://www.cchaven.com http://www.geocities.com/siliconvalley/lakes/6757 From vcf at vintage.org Tue Nov 27 22:12:51 2001 From: vcf at vintage.org (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:23:52 2005 Subject: Wanted: Tiger Learning Computer Message-ID: I'm wanting to buy a Tiger Learning Computer from anyone who may have one they don't want. This was the kid computer released during Christmas of 1996 but only sold in limited numbers in the JC Penney 1996 Christmas catalog. It was Apple ][ compatible--it basically had enhanced Apple //e ROMs and used Flash ROM cards as an emulated Disk ][ drive. It had Appleworks built-in. Very nifty. I'm also open to trades. Any got one? This is my biggest want currently. :) Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org * Old computing resources for business and academia at www.VintageTech.com * From sieler at allegro.com Wed Nov 28 00:57:33 2001 From: sieler at allegro.com (Stan Sieler) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:23:52 2005 Subject: Wanted: Tiger Learning Computer In-Reply-To: from "Vintage Computer Festival" at Nov 27, 2001 08:12:51 PM Message-ID: <200111280657.WAA30550@opus.allegro.com> Re: > I'm wanting to buy a Tiger Learning Computer from anyone who may have one > they don't want. This was the kid computer released during Christmas of > 1996 but only sold in limited numbers in the JC Penney 1996 Christmas > catalog. It was Apple ][ compatible--it basically had enhanced Apple //e > ROMs and used Flash ROM cards as an emulated Disk ][ drive. It had > Appleworks built-in. Very nifty. I've been searching for one, too! Any ideas on how to identify it? There appear to be a number of toys called "Tiger Learning Computer", including one with a Barney theme :( > This is my biggest want currently. Ditto, well, except for an Ampere laptop (APL) and a 5100 (with APL). :) -- Stan Sieler sieler@allegro.com www.allegro.com/sieler/wanted/index.html www.sieler.com From foo at siconic.com Wed Nov 28 12:21:25 2001 From: foo at siconic.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:23:52 2005 Subject: Wanted: Tiger Learning Computer In-Reply-To: <200111280657.WAA30550@opus.allegro.com> Message-ID: On Tue, 27 Nov 2001, Stan Sieler wrote: > Any ideas on how to identify it? There appear to be a number of toys > called "Tiger Learning Computer", including one with a Barney theme :( The only one I've ever seen in person is Hans Franke's. I forgot what markings are on it but I think it was the only machine called the Tiger Learning Computer. Maybe Hans can provide some visual clues. > > This is my biggest want currently. > > Ditto, well, except for an Ampere laptop (APL) and a 5100 (with APL). > :) I'm compiling a running want list that I'll be posting to the VCF website soon. I'll probably make it a community thing so that anyone can post a want list. Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org From owad at applefritter.com Wed Nov 28 13:10:39 2001 From: owad at applefritter.com (Tom Owad) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:23:52 2005 Subject: Wanted: Tiger Learning Computer In-Reply-To: <200111280657.WAA30550@opus.allegro.com> References: <200111280657.WAA30550@opus.allegro.com> Message-ID: <20011128191039.26937@mail.lafayette.edu> >Any ideas on how to identify it? There appear to be a number of >toys called "Tiger Learning Computer", including one with a Barney theme :( It looks like this: Tom Applefritter www.applefritter.com From fauradon at frontiernet.net Wed Nov 28 10:05:28 2001 From: fauradon at frontiernet.net (Sue & Francois) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:23:52 2005 Subject: Wanted: Tiger Learning Computer References: Message-ID: <011501c17826$7fb2d000$0264640a@frontiernet.net> These were also sold at Toys R (backward) Us here in MN, I remember seeing them and thinking that they probably would not sell and I'd be able to pick one up cheap,. Then I forgot and they were gone. Francois > I'm wanting to buy a Tiger Learning Computer from anyone who may have one From fauradon at frontiernet.net Tue Nov 27 23:33:31 2001 From: fauradon at frontiernet.net (Sue & Francois) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:23:52 2005 Subject: Tandy PC-4 pocket computer References: Message-ID: <001501c177ce$3747b860$0264640a@frontiernet.net> Did anybody mention that this particular machine is none other than a rebaged CASIO PB-100? Maybe a google on that will bring a load of information. Most of the links I have are in French but I'm sure some will turn out in English. Hope this helps Francois PS: Next time tell "some guy" to send it MY way :) I've been looking for one for a long time. The PB100 was my first pocket computer and I miss it ;( ----- Original Message ----- From: To: Sent: Tuesday, November 27, 2001 10:55 AM Subject: Tandy PC-4 pocket computer > Some guy sent me one for free and just got some new batteries in it. Powers > on and says READY P0 but can't figure out anything else. Google coming up 404 > for usability info on this thing. How do you work this thing? > From spectre at stockholm.ptloma.edu Tue Nov 27 22:35:35 2001 From: spectre at stockholm.ptloma.edu (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:23:52 2005 Subject: Tandy PC-4 pocket computer In-Reply-To: <001501c177ce$3747b860$0264640a@frontiernet.net> from Sue & Francois at "Nov 27, 1 09:33:31 pm" Message-ID: <200111280435.UAA09228@stockholm.ptloma.edu> > Did anybody mention that this particular machine is none other than a > rebaged CASIO PB-100? True, true. I have the Radio Shack PC-4 service manual that after heroic effort by a friend of mine was scanned, and I turned it into PDF. However, it's very, very big and not very helpful. I like the PC-4. I used one for biology calculations a couple years back much to the amusement of the lab's primary investigator, who was impressed that you could do that much with 1.5K (I have the RAM expansion pack). I also own a PC-3, but the PC-4's segmented programming space is much handier. -- ----------------------------- personal page: http://www.armory.com/~spectre/ -- Cameron Kaiser, Point Loma Nazarene University * ckaiser@stockholm.ptloma.edu -- "The ants are my friends/They're blowing in the wind" ---------------------- From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Nov 28 16:33:46 2001 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:23:52 2005 Subject: Tandy PC-4 pocket computer In-Reply-To: <200111280435.UAA09228@stockholm.ptloma.edu> from "Cameron Kaiser" at Nov 27, 1 08:35:35 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 2284 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20011128/ebc8210d/attachment.ksh From celt at chisp.net Wed Nov 28 01:14:49 2001 From: celt at chisp.net (Michael Maginnis) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:23:52 2005 Subject: Tandy PC-4 pocket computer References: <001501c177ce$3747b860$0264640a@frontiernet.net> Message-ID: <3C048EE9.3020201@chisp.net> > PS: Next time tell "some guy" to send it MY way :) I've been looking for one > for a long time. The PB100 was my first pocket computer and I miss it ;( > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: > To: > Sent: Tuesday, November 27, 2001 10:55 AM > Subject: Tandy PC-4 pocket computer > The local used PC shop had one of these in their display case not too long ago, but the $400 asking price was a bit more than I could stomach. This is the same place that tried to sell me a PET 2001-8 for $2000. I should have kept the one I used to carry around in high school... The PC-4, not the PET... Mike The Apple II Repository http://tarnover.org/ From jismay at gkar.unixboxen.net Wed Nov 28 15:29:22 2001 From: jismay at gkar.unixboxen.net (jismay@gkar.unixboxen.net) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:23:52 2005 Subject: Tandy PC-4 pocket computer Message-ID: <20011128132922.A39@gkar.unixboxen.net> I have a complete PC-4 basic setup including the programmer's manual and the user's manual I even have the leatherette slipcase for the unit. I will try to get the manuals scanned and put on the web when I get the chance. http://agamemnon.unixboxen.net From swtpc6800 at home.com Tue Nov 27 23:42:06 2001 From: swtpc6800 at home.com (Michael Holley) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:23:52 2005 Subject: AM radio music References: <7A9BACCEF0171D4FB77019F5104CDD3722599A@jeffserver.tegjeff.com> Message-ID: <002701c177cf$6a785090$9865fea9@downstairs> I toggled Daisy into a Imsai 8080, probably from Dr. Dobbs. I then wrote a music "compiler" in BASIC for my SWTPC 6800. You could enter three octives of notes and it would generate a data table for the song. I drove the output buffers on the parallel port. You just had to put your radio near the computer. These systems made so much radio interferance the FCC had to come out with standards. I remember an FCC report the mentioned the SWTPC 6800 as one of the offenders. (The Apple II switching power supply was a radio transmitter that also put out 5 volts.) In the early 1990s I used a Xilinx FPGA demo board and made a Music circuit chip that blinked the LEDs at 1 Mhz. The one chip, battery operated board would transmit for several feet. Being a RAM based FPGA, you could download song after song. (I converted my music compiler from BASIC to C.) ----------------------------------------------- Michael Holley http://www.swtpc.com/mholley/index.html ----------------------------------------------- ----- Original Message ----- From: "Douglas Quebbeman" To: Sent: Tuesday, November 27, 2001 7:44 AM Subject: RE: AM radio music > > If I remember correctly, there was a machine code program > > printed once to play "music" with a ZX80 using this method! > > Older. Dr. Dobb's Journal, Issue #2... 8080 code, played > Daisy and something else, modulating the S-100 INT signal. > > -dq > > From dlinder at uiuc.edu Wed Nov 28 00:12:00 2001 From: dlinder at uiuc.edu (Dan Linder) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:23:52 2005 Subject: opensource cp/m? Message-ID: this might be interesting for the cp/m people out there, though they probably already know all about it: http://slashdot.org/articles/01/11/27/1931237.shtml http://www.theregister.co.uk/content/4/23010.html http://www.newsforge.com/article.pl?sid=01/11/23/171225 -- Dan Linder / dlinder @ uiuc.edu Graduate Student, College of Engineering, Dept. of Computer Science - Dept. of Computer Science Teaching Assistant - DRES Computer Accessibility Researcher From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Wed Nov 28 08:08:51 2001 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (Allison) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:23:52 2005 Subject: S. Ring has badtrans virus Message-ID: <000401c17816$35f13b60$6b7b7b7b@ajp> If you see a mail from S.RING on the list delete it, the attachment has badtrans virus. Allison From jpl15 at panix.com Wed Nov 28 08:53:22 2001 From: jpl15 at panix.com (John Lawson) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:23:52 2005 Subject: S. Ring has badtrans virus In-Reply-To: <000401c17816$35f13b60$6b7b7b7b@ajp> Message-ID: It was sent to me 'personally', ie not as a classiccmp post. Since it was an unsolicited attachment from an unacknowledged source, it filed it in /dev/nul. just FYI if any listmembers get the thing... Cheerz John From jhellige at earthlink.net Wed Nov 28 08:25:23 2001 From: jhellige at earthlink.net (Jeff Hellige) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:23:52 2005 Subject: S. Ring has badtrans virus In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <01Nov28.103740est.119201@gateway.mediacen.navy.mil> > It was sent to me 'personally', ie not as a classiccmp post. Since it >was an unsolicited attachment from an unacknowledged source, it filed it >in /dev/nul. I got it as well but followed the same logic you did. I also received the virus once over the weekend as well, but it wasn't from a list subscriber. I don't use Outlook on my Mac's and don't have autopreview turned on when I'm using it under NT. Jeff -- Home of the TRS-80 Model 2000 FAQ File http://www.cchaven.com http://www.geocities.com/siliconvalley/lakes/6757 From curt at atari-history.com Wed Nov 28 11:40:06 2001 From: curt at atari-history.com (Curt Vendel) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:23:52 2005 Subject: S. Ring has badtrans virus References: Message-ID: <000901c17833$b99c54a0$0a00a8c0@cvendel> Yeah, I got it too, I never open anything unless I know who the person is and even then I always look at the attachment first before opening it. The file being a virus was pretty apparent when I saw the extension .doc.pif which is a fairly classic sign of some form of virus like the Nimda/sadmind. Curt ----- Original Message ----- From: "John Lawson" To: Sent: Wednesday, November 28, 2001 9:53 AM Subject: Re: S. Ring has badtrans virus > > > It was sent to me 'personally', ie not as a classiccmp post. Since it > was an unsolicited attachment from an unacknowledged source, it filed it > in /dev/nul. > > just FYI if any listmembers get the thing... > > > Cheerz > > John > > > From geneb at deltasoft.com Wed Nov 28 13:46:10 2001 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (Gene Buckle) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:23:52 2005 Subject: Update for Heathkit users... In-Reply-To: <000901c17833$b99c54a0$0a00a8c0@cvendel> Message-ID: I've finally gotten off my ass and started updating the Retroarchive site. For the first round it's pretty much all Heathkit stuff. I've also recently obtained a complete set of the newsletter, "The Staunch 8/89'er" that I'm going to try to get online as fast as I can, time allowing. Since the Heathkit area of the site is pretty sparse, I'd like to ask you folks for some donations - if you've got software for any of the Heathkit machines you'd like to make available, please let me know. I'd be happy to get it online for others to download. BTW, thanks must go out to Jay West for hosting the site for me! http://www.retroarchive.org is the place. Thanks folks. Gene Buckle geneb@deltasoft.com From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Nov 28 17:08:01 2001 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:23:52 2005 Subject: S. Ring has badtrans virus In-Reply-To: from "John Lawson" at Nov 28, 1 09:53:22 am Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 749 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20011128/eea3b308/attachment.ksh From DAW at yalepress3.unipress.yale.edu Wed Nov 28 10:06:31 2001 From: DAW at yalepress3.unipress.yale.edu (David Woyciesjes) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:23:53 2005 Subject: S. Ring has badtrans virus Message-ID: <9011A52E011ED311B4280004AC1BA615014672F1@yalepress3.unipress.yale.edu> Well, I'm running Norton Corporate Edition, with Outlook 2000, and it scans my e-mail as it comes in, before I even read the message! Works out nice :-) --- David A Woyciesjes --- C & IS Support Specialist --- Yale University Press --- mailto:david.woyciesjes@yale.edu --- (203) 432-0953 --- ICQ # - 905818 ! -----Original Message----- ! From: Jeff Hellige [mailto:jhellige@earthlink.net] ! Sent: Wednesday, November 28, 2001 9:25 AM ! To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org ! Subject: Re: S. Ring has badtrans virus ! ! ! > It was sent to me 'personally', ie not as a classiccmp ! post. Since it ! >was an unsolicited attachment from an unacknowledged source, ! it filed it ! >in /dev/nul. ! ! I got it as well but followed the same logic you did. I also ! received the virus once over the weekend as well, but it wasn't from ! a list subscriber. I don't use Outlook on my Mac's and don't have ! autopreview turned on when I'm using it under NT. ! ! Jeff ! -- ! Home of the TRS-80 Model 2000 FAQ File ! http://www.cchaven.com ! http://www.geocities.com/siliconvalley/lakes/6757 ! From bpope at wordstock.com Wed Nov 28 10:48:10 2001 From: bpope at wordstock.com (Bryan Pope) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:23:53 2005 Subject: S. Ring has badtrans virus In-Reply-To: <9011A52E011ED311B4280004AC1BA615014672F1@yalepress3.unipress.yale.edu> from "David Woyciesjes" at Nov 28, 01 11:06:31 am Message-ID: <200111281648.LAA07124@wordstock.com> I am assuming NCE include Norton Anti-Virus.. On the Norton Utilities Systemworks AV is installed to automatically scan your email for virii... But the way it does it is *very* questionable.. The email is routed to one of their servers before being routed to you inbox. I only happened to find this out *after* everything was installed because I also use Zone Alarm. I then found out that the install had modified Outlook. Nowhere in the install was I told that this was happening!!! Bryan > > Well, I'm running Norton Corporate Edition, with Outlook 2000, and it scans > my e-mail as it comes in, before I even read the message! Works out nice :-) From Robert_Feldman at jdedwards.com Wed Nov 28 08:35:57 2001 From: Robert_Feldman at jdedwards.com (Feldman, Robert) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:23:53 2005 Subject: FYI: Otrona 2001 on ebay Message-ID: You don't see many of these around. It was a more MS-DOS compatible model, with a larger screen than the Attache, that came out just before Otrona went under. So far, it's bid is under $40. http://cgi.ebay.com/aw-cgi/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=1302397837 BTW, it's not my auction. I have an Attache 8:16, but I don't plan to bid on the 2001. Bob From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Wed Nov 28 10:15:01 2001 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (Allison) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:23:53 2005 Subject: S. Ring has badtrans virus Message-ID: <001101c17827$d6239b80$6b7b7b7b@ajp> It drove me nuts as the work sys is W95 and outlookdistress. I wanted to summary delete it but Norton antivirus would pitch a fit if I even touched the mail. I have the outlook features turned off but the antivirus is too efficient. only solution was to isolate the machine just in case(pull net connection, drop modem) and purge mail. What a PITA! Wishing I used VMS at work or at least linux. Allison -----Original Message----- From: Jeff Hellige To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org Date: Wednesday, November 28, 2001 10:52 AM Subject: Re: S. Ring has badtrans virus >> It was sent to me 'personally', ie not as a classiccmp post. Since it >>was an unsolicited attachment from an unacknowledged source, it filed it >>in /dev/nul. > > I got it as well but followed the same logic you did. I also >received the virus once over the weekend as well, but it wasn't from >a list subscriber. I don't use Outlook on my Mac's and don't have >autopreview turned on when I'm using it under NT. > > Jeff >-- > Home of the TRS-80 Model 2000 FAQ File > http://www.cchaven.com > http://www.geocities.com/siliconvalley/lakes/6757 From jss at subatomix.com Wed Nov 28 11:08:02 2001 From: jss at subatomix.com (Jeffrey S. Sharp) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:23:53 2005 Subject: S. Ring has badtrans virus In-Reply-To: <9011A52E011ED311B4280004AC1BA615014672F1@yalepress3.unipress.yale.edu> Message-ID: <20011128110541.S41496-100000@lepton.subatomix.com> On Wed, 28 Nov 2001, David Woyciesjes wrote: > Well, I'm running Norton Corporate Edition, with Outlook 2000, and it > scans my e-mail as it comes in, before I even read the message! Works > out nice :-) Was it prescient enough to detect Badtrans.b? If Badtrans.b is a new virus, it almost sounds fishy that NAV *already* knew how to discover it. -- Jeffrey S. Sharp jss@subatomix.com From dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com Wed Nov 28 11:38:38 2001 From: dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com (Douglas Quebbeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:23:53 2005 Subject: S. Ring has badtrans virus Message-ID: <7A9BACCEF0171D4FB77019F5104CDD372259B4@jeffserver.tegjeff.com> > I am assuming NCE include Norton Anti-Virus.. On the Norton Utilities > Systemworks AV is installed to automatically scan your email for virii... > But the way it does it is *very* questionable.. The email is routed to one > of their servers before being routed to you inbox. > > I only happened to find this out *after* everything was installed because I > also use Zone Alarm. I then found out that the install had modified Outlook. > Nowhere in the install was I told that this was happening!!! Network Associates' Groupshield Exchange and Computer Associates' eTrust InoculateIT! Exchange Option scan the mail as it comes in to the server and what gets put in the inbox has been sanitized... except, apparantly, the BADTRANS virus. Fortunately, the client- side realtime scanner caught it... -dq From pete at dunnington.u-net.com Wed Nov 28 12:36:45 2001 From: pete at dunnington.u-net.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:23:53 2005 Subject: S. Ring has badtrans virus In-Reply-To: Douglas Quebbeman "RE: S. Ring has badtrans virus" (Nov 28, 12:38) References: <7A9BACCEF0171D4FB77019F5104CDD372259B4@jeffserver.tegjeff.com> Message-ID: <10111281836.ZM29176@mindy.dunnington.u-net.com> On Nov 28, 12:38, Douglas Quebbeman wrote: > > But the way it does it is *very* questionable.. The email is routed to one > > of their servers before being routed to you inbox. No, it just runs another server on your own machine (127.0.0.1, localhost) and redirects mail to that before giving it to Outlook. > Network Associates' Groupshield Exchange and Computer Associates' > eTrust InoculateIT! Exchange Option scan the mail as it comes in > to the server and what gets put in the inbox has been sanitized... > > except, apparantly, the BADTRANS virus. Fortunately, the client- > side realtime scanner caught it... Lots of things miss it because it's fairly new. It's only been around a few days. Most of the anti-virus sites have had updates for couple of days or more, though. One of the ways it works is to look through existing mail for messages that haven't been replied to, and reply to them. That way the recipient not only gets mail from someone whose address he recognises, it has a sensible subject line too. That's probably why several list members have it, and why Sellam got what he did. -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager University of York From msell at ontimesupport.com Wed Nov 28 11:38:43 2001 From: msell at ontimesupport.com (Matthew Sell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:23:53 2005 Subject: S. Ring has badtrans virus In-Reply-To: <200111281648.LAA07124@wordstock.com> References: <9011A52E011ED311B4280004AC1BA615014672F1@yalepress3.unipress.yale.edu> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20011128113403.025f3b30@127.0.0.1> Bryan, Are you sure it is routed to *their* servers? We use Norton AV 2000 and it uses a local "proxy" that filters incoming mail through 127.0.0.1 (localhost) before the mail application can do harm with it. During install, Norton AV (at least our version) modifies the mail reader so that it uses localhost as the mail server, and this Norton mail proxy then actually gets the mail and passes it to the mail reader. This mail does not pass through or utilize any Norton servers, just a local proxy installed on your computer. - Matt At 11:48 AM 11/28/2001 -0500, you wrote: >I am assuming NCE include Norton Anti-Virus.. On the Norton Utilities >Systemworks AV is installed to automatically scan your email for virii... >But the way it does it is *very* questionable.. The email is routed to one >of their servers before being routed to you inbox. > >I only happened to find this out *after* everything was installed because I >also use Zone Alarm. I then found out that the install had modified Outlook. >Nowhere in the install was I told that this was happening!!! > >Bryan > > > > > > > Well, I'm running Norton Corporate Edition, with Outlook 2000, and it scans > > my e-mail as it comes in, before I even read the message! Works out > nice :-) Matthew Sell Programmer On Time Support, Inc. www.ontimesupport.com (281) 296-6066 Join the Metrology Software discussion group METLIST! http://www.ontimesupport.com/cgi-bin/mojo/mojo.cgi "One World, One Web, One Program" - Microsoft Promotional Ad "Ein Volk, Ein Reich, Ein Fuhrer" - Adolf Hitler Many thanks for this tagline to a fellow RGVAC'er... From DAW at yalepress3.unipress.yale.edu Wed Nov 28 12:00:21 2001 From: DAW at yalepress3.unipress.yale.edu (David Woyciesjes) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:23:53 2005 Subject: S. Ring has badtrans virus Message-ID: <9011A52E011ED311B4280004AC1BA615014672F4@yalepress3.unipress.yale.edu> ! > Well, I'm running Norton Corporate Edition, with Outlook ! > 2000, and it scans my e-mail as it comes in, before I ! > even read the message! Works out nice :-) ! I am assuming NCE include Norton Anti-Virus... Actually it's the Corporate Edition of Norton Anti-Virus. ! ...On the Norton Utilities Systemworks AV is installed to ! automatically scan your email for virii... Yeah, I remember that option from that memory-hog version... ! ...But the way it does it is *very* questionable. The email ! is routed to one of their servers before being routed to you ! inbox... NCE doesn't work it that way, well at least in our setup. We install it as an unmanaged system (no central Norton server here.) Basically a standalone install. We could have a central server here to 'manage' the copies of NCE installed on the clients, maybe that's what you're referring to. Symantec hijacking your e-mail sounds wierd, and in-efficient. ! ...I only happened to find this out *after* everything was ! installed because I also use Zone Alarm... ! I then found out that the install had modified Outlook. ! Nowhere in the install was I told that this was happening!!! Yeah, the install has to modify Outlook somewhat. It gives the option to install a plug-in, to allow it to scan the messages as they come in. I much prefer it that way, since I leave Outlook open all day, and recieve at _least_ 200 messages a day. Yes, vigilance (and a different e-mail program) are my preferred method, but work here pretty much requires the use of Outlook. It's actually a nice program, if it weren't for the plentiful virus 'features'. --- David A Woyciesjes --- C & IS Support Specialist --- Yale University Press --- mailto:david.woyciesjes@yale.edu --- (203) 432-0953 --- ICQ # - 905818 From DAW at yalepress3.unipress.yale.edu Wed Nov 28 12:03:08 2001 From: DAW at yalepress3.unipress.yale.edu (David Woyciesjes) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:23:53 2005 Subject: S. Ring has badtrans virus Message-ID: <9011A52E011ED311B4280004AC1BA615014672F5@yalepress3.unipress.yale.edu> Well, my Norton is set to automatically update every week. Also, as soon as I heard about it (badtrans) on Tuesday morning (when I came back from being out since last wednesday) I updated the latest virus definitions, to the 11/24 version. Not sure if earlier defs knew about it... --- David A Woyciesjes --- C & IS Support Specialist --- Yale University Press --- mailto:david.woyciesjes@yale.edu --- (203) 432-0953 --- ICQ # - 905818 ! -----Original Message----- ! From: Jeffrey S. Sharp [mailto:jss@subatomix.com] ! Sent: Wednesday, November 28, 2001 12:08 PM ! To: 'classiccmp@classiccmp.org' ! Subject: RE: S. Ring has badtrans virus ! ! ! On Wed, 28 Nov 2001, David Woyciesjes wrote: ! ! > Well, I'm running Norton Corporate Edition, with Outlook ! 2000, and it ! > scans my e-mail as it comes in, before I even read the ! message! Works ! > out nice :-) ! ! Was it prescient enough to detect Badtrans.b? If Badtrans.b is a new ! virus, it almost sounds fishy that NAV *already* knew how to ! discover it. ! ! -- ! Jeffrey S. Sharp ! jss@subatomix.com ! From dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com Wed Nov 28 12:21:38 2001 From: dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com (Douglas Quebbeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:23:53 2005 Subject: S. Ring has badtrans virus Message-ID: <7A9BACCEF0171D4FB77019F5104CDD372259B6@jeffserver.tegjeff.com> > On Wed, 28 Nov 2001, David Woyciesjes wrote: > > > Well, I'm running Norton Corporate Edition, with Outlook 2000, and it > > scans my e-mail as it comes in, before I even read the message! Works > > out nice :-) > > Was it prescient enough to detect Badtrans.b? If Badtrans.b is a new > virus, it almost sounds fishy that NAV *already* knew how to > discover it. Heuristics. -dq From CLeyson at aol.com Wed Nov 28 12:56:08 2001 From: CLeyson at aol.com (CLeyson@aol.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:23:53 2005 Subject: S. Ring has badtrans virus Message-ID: Got two infected emails from ebay members. s3msong.doc.scr or pif Chris Leyson -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20011128/b1c6d26e/attachment.html From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Wed Nov 28 14:57:04 2001 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (Allison) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:23:53 2005 Subject: S. Ring has badtrans virus Message-ID: <001601c1784f$3d6a2300$6b7b7b7b@ajp> Save for two things... I could not even touch the mail file or Norton AV would scream virus. Since I could not tiuch it there was no clue as to the content (save for virus laden). The machine at no time ever was infected but because of how lookoutdistress works you cant delete an element of the ISAM file that has the offending mail message and norton was trying to do that. After a day of win98se installing the sound hardware(board level disabled!) that I dont want but not the second parallel port I do want w9x is still guano! Allison -----Original Message----- From: Curt Vendel To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org Date: Wednesday, November 28, 2001 1:07 PM Subject: Re: S. Ring has badtrans virus >Yeah, > > I got it too, I never open anything unless I know who the person is and >even then I always look at the attachment first before opening it. The >file being a virus was pretty apparent when I saw the extension .doc.pif >which is a fairly classic sign of some form of virus like the Nimda/sadmind. > > >Curt > > >----- Original Message ----- >From: "John Lawson" >To: >Sent: Wednesday, November 28, 2001 9:53 AM >Subject: Re: S. Ring has badtrans virus > > >> >> >> It was sent to me 'personally', ie not as a classiccmp post. Since it >> was an unsolicited attachment from an unacknowledged source, it filed it >> in /dev/nul. >> >> just FYI if any listmembers get the thing... >> >> >> Cheerz >> >> John >> >> >> > > From at258 at osfn.org Wed Nov 28 16:34:22 2001 From: at258 at osfn.org (Merle K. Peirce) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:23:53 2005 Subject: S. Ring has badtrans virus In-Reply-To: <000401c17816$35f13b60$6b7b7b7b@ajp> Message-ID: I've been wondering about that. I've had 3 or 4 messages with a 39K something attached, and I deleted them all. On Wed, 28 Nov 2001, Allison wrote: > If you see a mail from S.RING on the list delete it, the attachment > has badtrans virus. > > Allison > > M. K. Peirce Rhode Island Computer Museum, Inc. Shady Lea, Rhode Island "Casta est quam nemo rogavit." - Ovid From vcf at vintage.org Wed Nov 28 11:28:45 2001 From: vcf at vintage.org (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:23:53 2005 Subject: Spam from _sring@uslink.net? Message-ID: Looks like the Classiccmp archives may have been broached by some lame spammer. Has anyone else gotten an audio file from S. Ring <_sring@uslink.net> with an audio file attachment, bearing the subject of an old CC message? Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org * Old computing resources for business and academia at www.VintageTech.com * From cisin at xenosoft.com Wed Nov 28 11:55:18 2001 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin (XenoSoft)) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:23:53 2005 Subject: Spam from _sring@uslink.net? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Wed, 28 Nov 2001, Vintage Computer Festival wrote: > Looks like the Classiccmp archives may have been broached by some lame > spammer. Has anyone else gotten an audio file from S. Ring > <_sring@uslink.net> with an audio file attachment, bearing the subject of > an old CC message? THAT AIn'T NO AUDIO FILE!!!!! Take a closer look at the extension! AFTER the MP3, JPG, DOC whatever extension, it has ANOTHER extension of .SCR or .PIF. THAT is the BADTRANS virus. -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin@xenosoft.com From bpope at wordstock.com Wed Nov 28 12:04:07 2001 From: bpope at wordstock.com (Bryan Pope) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:23:53 2005 Subject: Spam from _sring@uslink.net? In-Reply-To: from "Vintage Computer Festival" at Nov 28, 01 09:28:45 am Message-ID: <200111281804.NAA26433@wordstock.com> Sellam, I received that message.. Bryan Pope > > > Looks like the Classiccmp archives may have been broached by some lame > spammer. Has anyone else gotten an audio file from S. Ring > <_sring@uslink.net> with an audio file attachment, bearing the subject of > an old CC message? > From foo at siconic.com Wed Nov 28 12:28:22 2001 From: foo at siconic.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:23:53 2005 Subject: Spam from _sring@uslink.net? In-Reply-To: <200111281804.NAA26433@wordstock.com> Message-ID: On Wed, 28 Nov 2001, Bryan Pope wrote: > Sellam, > > I received that message.. > > Bryan Pope > > > Looks like the Classiccmp archives may have been broached by some lame > > spammer. Has anyone else gotten an audio file from S. Ring > > <_sring@uslink.net> with an audio file attachment, bearing the subject of > > an old CC message? What I find interesting is that the message was masquerading as a reply to an old Classiccmp message. Either someone who got infected has a very large inbox with old-assed CC messages, or someone targeted the attack at the addresses in the CC archive. Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org From DAW at yalepress3.unipress.yale.edu Wed Nov 28 12:14:45 2001 From: DAW at yalepress3.unipress.yale.edu (David Woyciesjes) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:23:53 2005 Subject: Spam from _sring@uslink.net? Message-ID: <9011A52E011ED311B4280004AC1BA615014672F6@yalepress3.unipress.yale.edu> Umm, maybe I'm falling for a joke, but the most recent thread here is about that very message containing the hot new W32.Badtrans.b virus... --- David A Woyciesjes --- C & IS Support Specialist --- Yale University Press --- mailto:david.woyciesjes@yale.edu --- (203) 432-0953 --- ICQ # - 905818 ! -----Original Message----- ! From: Vintage Computer Festival [mailto:vcf@vintage.org] ! Sent: Wednesday, November 28, 2001 12:29 PM ! To: Classic Computers Mailing List ! Subject: Spam from _sring@uslink.net? ! ! ! ! Looks like the Classiccmp archives may have been broached by some lame ! spammer. Has anyone else gotten an audio file from S. Ring ! <_sring@uslink.net> with an audio file attachment, bearing ! the subject of ! an old CC message? ! ! Sellam Ismail Vintage ! Computer Festival ! -------------------------------------------------------------- ! ---------------- ! International Man of Intrigue and Danger ! http://www.vintage.org ! ! * Old computing resources for business and academia at ! www.VintageTech.com * ! ! From jss at subatomix.com Wed Nov 28 12:15:27 2001 From: jss at subatomix.com (Jeffrey S. Sharp) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:23:53 2005 Subject: Spam from _sring@uslink.net? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20011128121444.G41602-100000@lepton.subatomix.com> On Wed, 28 Nov 2001, Vintage Computer Festival wrote: > Has anyone else gotten an audio file from S. Ring <_sring@uslink.net> > with an audio file attachment, bearing the subject of an old CC > message? It was not *really* an audio file, but yes, that happened to me. -- Jeffrey S. Sharp jss@subatomix.com From Robert_Feldman at jdedwards.com Wed Nov 28 12:18:15 2001 From: Robert_Feldman at jdedwards.com (Feldman, Robert) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:23:53 2005 Subject: Spam from _sring@uslink.net? Message-ID: The virus works by "answering" unread emails on the infected computer. Mr. Ring appears not to be keeping up with the list ;-) Interestingly, if an infected computer sends an email to another infected computer, an "endless" loop of emails starts, until one or the other computer's email server crashes from the overload. -----Original Message----- From: Fred Cisin (XenoSoft) [mailto:cisin@xenosoft.com] Sent: Wednesday, November 28, 2001 11:55 AM To: Classic Computers Mailing List Subject: Re: Spam from _sring@uslink.net? On Wed, 28 Nov 2001, Vintage Computer Festival wrote: > Looks like the Classiccmp archives may have been broached by some lame > spammer. Has anyone else gotten an audio file from S. Ring > <_sring@uslink.net> with an audio file attachment, bearing the subject of > an old CC message? THAT AIn'T NO AUDIO FILE!!!!! Take a closer look at the extension! AFTER the MP3, JPG, DOC whatever extension, it has ANOTHER extension of .SCR or .PIF. THAT is the BADTRANS virus. -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin@xenosoft.com From curt at atari-history.com Wed Nov 28 13:20:19 2001 From: curt at atari-history.com (Curt Vendel) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:23:53 2005 Subject: Spam from _sring@uslink.net? References: Message-ID: <000d01c17841$ba3ea6c0$0a00a8c0@cvendel> Sellam, Looks like a lot of places have broached the Classiccmp as I've been getting spammed up the ying-yang and my mail blocking policies are on the brink of a nervous brake down as of late, I know a lot of other people from the mailling that I speak with one to one have mentioned the same thing that they suddenly been inundated with spam. Curt ----- Original Message ----- From: "Vintage Computer Festival" To: "Classic Computers Mailing List" Sent: Wednesday, November 28, 2001 12:28 PM Subject: Spam from _sring@uslink.net? > > Looks like the Classiccmp archives may have been broached by some lame > spammer. Has anyone else gotten an audio file from S. Ring > <_sring@uslink.net> with an audio file attachment, bearing the subject of > an old CC message? > > Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival > -------------------------------------------------------------------------- ---- > International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org > > * Old computing resources for business and academia at www.VintageTech.com * > > From foo at siconic.com Wed Nov 28 14:32:11 2001 From: foo at siconic.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:23:53 2005 Subject: Spam from _sring@uslink.net? In-Reply-To: <000d01c17841$ba3ea6c0$0a00a8c0@cvendel> Message-ID: On Wed, 28 Nov 2001, Curt Vendel wrote: > Looks like a lot of places have broached the Classiccmp as I've > been getting spammed up the ying-yang and my mail blocking policies > are on the brink of a nervous brake down as of late, I know a lot of > other people from the mailling that I speak with one to one have > mentioned the same thing that they suddenly been inundated with spam. Curious, as I use this account exclusively to receive CC messages, and mostly post to the list from it. I have never received a spam message addressed directly to . I bet the spam that others are receiving is a result of their posting their address somewhere else. Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org From hansp at aconit.org Wed Nov 28 13:58:53 2001 From: hansp at aconit.org (Hans B Pufal) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:23:53 2005 Subject: Spam from _sring@uslink.net? References: Message-ID: <3C0541FD.5030309@aconit.org> Vintage Computer Festival wrote: > Looks like the Classiccmp archives may have been broached by some lame > spammer. Has anyone else gotten an audio file from S. Ring > <_sring@uslink.net> with an audio file attachment, bearing the subject of > an old CC message? Don't know what it was but yes I received a message with an old subject line and no message body just an attachment which I immediatley discarded. -- hbp From allain at panix.com Wed Nov 28 15:11:43 2001 From: allain at panix.com (John Allain) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:23:53 2005 Subject: Spam from _sring@uslink.net? References: <3C0541FD.5030309@aconit.org> Message-ID: <004101c17851$47f35ce0$21fe54a6@ibm23xhr06> > Don't know what it was but yes I received a message with an old subject > line and no message body just an attachment which I immediatley discarded. No, heed Allison, if you are on a W/lose architecture. Submit "+virus+badtrans" to Yahoo and pick www.antivirus.com for instructions. This is the first time I've seen an autolaunching virus on my machine. I May not be infected, but I can't rest until a few tests are completed. John A. "The directions said to install Windows 95 or better so I installed Linux." -- David Kinney From jhellige at earthlink.net Wed Nov 28 15:55:51 2001 From: jhellige at earthlink.net (Jeff Hellige) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:23:53 2005 Subject: Spam from _sring@uslink.net? In-Reply-To: <004101c17851$47f35ce0$21fe54a6@ibm23xhr06> References: <3C0541FD.5030309@aconit.org> <004101c17851$47f35ce0$21fe54a6@ibm23xhr06> Message-ID: > This is the first time I've seen an autolaunching virus on > my machine. I May not be infected, but I can't rest until > a few tests are completed. With the others lately that have caused so much trouble, I've not gotten hit at all at home, only hits on the servers at work. WIth this new one, I've gotten 3 hits from it in the last few days. It seems this one is a bit better at reproducing than the others. Jeff -- Home of the TRS-80 Model 2000 FAQ File http://www.cchaven.com http://www.geocities.com/siliconvalley/lakes/6757 From spectre at stockholm.ptloma.edu Wed Nov 28 17:03:07 2001 From: spectre at stockholm.ptloma.edu (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:23:53 2005 Subject: Spam from _sring@uslink.net? In-Reply-To: <004101c17851$47f35ce0$21fe54a6@ibm23xhr06> from John Allain at "Nov 28, 1 04:11:43 pm" Message-ID: <200111282303.PAA12122@stockholm.ptloma.edu> > This is the first time I've seen an autolaunching virus on > my machine. I May not be infected, but I can't rest until > a few tests are completed. Fortunately, I read E-mail with Elm on a non-root account on a PowerPC architecture. I'm not a very large target :-) -- ----------------------------- personal page: http://www.armory.com/~spectre/ -- Cameron Kaiser, Point Loma Nazarene University * ckaiser@stockholm.ptloma.edu -- MOVIE IDEA: Ferris Bueller's E-mail Signature ------------------------------ From spectre at stockholm.ptloma.edu Wed Nov 28 17:01:00 2001 From: spectre at stockholm.ptloma.edu (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:23:53 2005 Subject: Spam from _sring@uslink.net? In-Reply-To: <3C0541FD.5030309@aconit.org> from Hans B Pufal at "Nov 28, 1 08:58:53 pm" Message-ID: <200111282301.PAA12880@stockholm.ptloma.edu> > > Looks like the Classiccmp archives may have been broached by some lame > > spammer. Has anyone else gotten an audio file from S. Ring > > <_sring@uslink.net> with an audio file attachment, bearing the subject of > > an old CC message? > > Don't know what it was but yes I received a message with an old subject > line and no message body just an attachment which I immediatley discarded. Ditto. I think that audio/x-wav attachment is actually a virus payload, IIRC. -- ----------------------------- personal page: http://www.armory.com/~spectre/ -- Cameron Kaiser, Point Loma Nazarene University * ckaiser@stockholm.ptloma.edu -- The new Tourette Syndrome movie: Twitch and Shout! -- John Waters ---------- From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Wed Nov 28 14:59:35 2001 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (Allison) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:23:53 2005 Subject: Spam from _sring@uslink.net? Message-ID: <002b01c1784f$9761c0c0$6b7b7b7b@ajp> same here, it was a badtrans.b in a file ending in .SCR the winders virus propagation scritpting language. Allison -----Original Message----- From: Jeffrey S. Sharp To: Classic Computers Mailing List Date: Wednesday, November 28, 2001 1:50 PM Subject: Re: Spam from _sring@uslink.net? >On Wed, 28 Nov 2001, Vintage Computer Festival wrote: > >> Has anyone else gotten an audio file from S. Ring <_sring@uslink.net> >> with an audio file attachment, bearing the subject of an old CC >> message? > >It was not *really* an audio file, but yes, that happened to me. > >-- >Jeffrey S. Sharp >jss@subatomix.com > From Robert_Feldman at jdedwards.com Wed Nov 28 15:16:18 2001 From: Robert_Feldman at jdedwards.com (Feldman, Robert) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:23:53 2005 Subject: Spam from _sring@uslink.net? Message-ID: According to what I have read about the virus, it "replies" to unread emails. The copy I got was a re: to "RE: Rubber Restorer", which was a thread a few weeks ago about restoring printer feeder rollers. I did post in that thread. I would venture that everyone on the CC list who got a copy had it titled in re: something they previously posted. I guess we have a second reason to be upset with Mr. (or Ms.) Ring: s/he didn't read at least one of our brilliant email posts. BTW, can anybody check to see if Ring is a member of the list? -----Original Message----- From: Sellam Ismail [mailto:foo@siconic.com] Sent: Wednesday, November 28, 2001 2:32 PM To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org Subject: Re: Spam from _sring@uslink.net? Curious, as I use this account exclusively to receive CC messages, and mostly post to the list from it. From cisin at xenosoft.com Wed Nov 28 17:36:25 2001 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin (XenoSoft)) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:23:53 2005 Subject: Spam from _sring@uslink.net? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Wed, 28 Nov 2001, Feldman, Robert wrote: > it titled in re: something they previously posted. I guess we have a second > reason to be upset with Mr. (or Ms.) Ring: s/he didn't read at least one of > our brilliant email posts. To top it all, I just got a copy from John R. Keys Jr. <_jrkeys@concentric.net> !! Notice that the virus prepends an unsdersore in front of an otherwise legitimate address. QUESTION: Is the virus necessarily on HIS computer, or has somebody written any viruses that forge somebody else's return address (from another message in the same mailbox), This one, the "payload" was in: README.mp3.scr I've also gotten earlier today from other mails a couple with a payload named: SM3SONG.mp3.scr And people can't understand why I would prefer PINE on a Unix shell account over OUTLOOK (aka MS virus transfer protocol) -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin@xenosoft.com From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Nov 28 19:16:58 2001 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:23:53 2005 Subject: Spam from _sring@uslink.net? In-Reply-To: from "Fred Cisin" at Nov 28, 1 03:36:25 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 388 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20011129/b125f7d1/attachment.ksh From RCini at congressfinancial.com Wed Nov 28 12:54:45 2001 From: RCini at congressfinancial.com (Cini, Richard) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:23:53 2005 Subject: S100 hard drives and controllers Message-ID: <497A9E0467D2D2119B760090271EB8E5879FA3@MAIL10> Hello, all: Did Morrow make a hard disk controller? Who made controllers and drives (if you could afford one) for these systems. Rich ========================== Richard A. Cini, Jr. Congress Financial Corporation 1133 Avenue of the Americas 30th Floor New York, NY 10036 (212) 545-4402 (212) 840-6259 (facsimile) From jhellige at earthlink.net Wed Nov 28 12:25:08 2001 From: jhellige at earthlink.net (Jeff Hellige) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:23:53 2005 Subject: S100 hard drives and controllers In-Reply-To: <497A9E0467D2D2119B760090271EB8E5879FA3@MAIL10> References: <497A9E0467D2D2119B760090271EB8E5879FA3@MAIL10> Message-ID: <01Nov28.143726est.119081@gateway.mediacen.navy.mil> > Did Morrow make a hard disk controller? Who made controllers and >drives (if you could afford one) for these systems. Zenith made a hard disk controller, paired with a data seperator card, for the IEEE version of the S-100 bus. Not sure how well it worked in systems other than the H/Z-100 machines though. Jeff -- Home of the TRS-80 Model 2000 FAQ File http://www.cchaven.com http://www.geocities.com/siliconvalley/lakes/6757 From donm at cts.com Wed Nov 28 16:11:40 2001 From: donm at cts.com (Don Maslin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:23:53 2005 Subject: S100 hard drives and controllers In-Reply-To: <01Nov28.143726est.119081@gateway.mediacen.navy.mil> Message-ID: On Wed, 28 Nov 2001, Jeff Hellige wrote: > > Did Morrow make a hard disk controller? Who made controllers and > >drives (if you could afford one) for these systems. > > Zenith made a hard disk controller, paired with a data > seperator card, for the IEEE version of the S-100 bus. Not sure how > well it worked in systems other than the H/Z-100 machines though. > > Jeff Advanced Digital also made one. - don > -- > Home of the TRS-80 Model 2000 FAQ File > http://www.cchaven.com > http://www.geocities.com/siliconvalley/lakes/6757 > From curt at atari-history.com Wed Nov 28 13:45:02 2001 From: curt at atari-history.com (Curt Vendel) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:23:53 2005 Subject: Serial Hard Disk Interface (S100 hard drives and controllers) References: <497A9E0467D2D2119B760090271EB8E5879FA3@MAIL10> Message-ID: <005501c17845$2ded0870$0a00a8c0@cvendel> On the subject of hard drives and controllers.... I had read about someone working on a serial to IDE interface, can anyone point me in the direction of that website, I can no longer find the info and I was interested in the project to see if placing an Rverter interface which turns an Atari SIO port into a standard Serial port would work. Thanks, Curt ----- Original Message ----- From: "Cini, Richard" To: "'ClassCompList'" Sent: Wednesday, November 28, 2001 1:54 PM Subject: S100 hard drives and controllers > Hello, all: > > Did Morrow make a hard disk controller? Who made controllers and > drives (if you could afford one) for these systems. > > Rich > > ========================== > Richard A. Cini, Jr. > Congress Financial Corporation > 1133 Avenue of the Americas > 30th Floor > New York, NY 10036 > (212) 545-4402 > (212) 840-6259 (facsimile) > From dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com Wed Nov 28 13:47:26 2001 From: dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com (Douglas Quebbeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:23:53 2005 Subject: S100 hard drives and controllers Message-ID: <7A9BACCEF0171D4FB77019F5104CDD372259BA@jeffserver.tegjeff.com> > Hello, all: > > Did Morrow make a hard disk controller? Who made controllers and > drives (if you could afford one) for these systems. Yeah, I have the brochure for it somewhere; IIRC, the photo showed one of those big Winchester drives with the transparent plastic enclosure. -dq From edick at idcomm.com Wed Nov 28 14:00:50 2001 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:23:53 2005 Subject: S100 hard drives and controllers References: <497A9E0467D2D2119B760090271EB8E5879FA3@MAIL10> Message-ID: <000f01c17847$61310c20$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> Morrow did make a hard disk controller for S-100, though I know of no maker who shipped drives and controller as a unit. That doesn't mean it didn't happen, but just that I didn't encounter any. Several third-parties sold such arrangements complete with installation software. I had a Konan SMC-100 SMD controller and a CDC Lark drive for quite some time. SMC, later known as XEBEC, made a model 9391 controller (too tall for some enclosures), that supported four 5-1/4" drives. There were several makers, e.g. XCOMP, who provided S-100 board pairs for both 8" and 5-1/4" drives, though one set would only deal with one type, and, in fact, one drive. Most of the hard disk applications used a host adapter and an external bridge board that talked to the drives. I was quite partial to the Western Digital types myself, but Shugart, Xebec and Adaptec, not to mention OMTI, DTC, and XCOMP all made bridge boards that worked very well. Most of them used the SASI interface, though the Western Digital types, with the exception of the WD1002-SAS, used their own interface, which I found MUCH easier to deal with than SASI or SCSI. With the bridge board, one generally had the option of using parallel ports in place of a bridge-specific interface, so that was quite a popular solution. Dick ----- Original Message ----- From: "Cini, Richard" To: "'ClassCompList'" Sent: Wednesday, November 28, 2001 11:54 AM Subject: S100 hard drives and controllers > Hello, all: > > Did Morrow make a hard disk controller? Who made controllers and > drives (if you could afford one) for these systems. > > Rich > > ========================== > Richard A. Cini, Jr. > Congress Financial Corporation > 1133 Avenue of the Americas > 30th Floor > New York, NY 10036 > (212) 545-4402 > (212) 840-6259 (facsimile) > > From foo at siconic.com Wed Nov 28 14:27:52 2001 From: foo at siconic.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:23:53 2005 Subject: S100 hard drives and controllers In-Reply-To: <497A9E0467D2D2119B760090271EB8E5879FA3@MAIL10> Message-ID: On Wed, 28 Nov 2001, Cini, Richard wrote: > Did Morrow make a hard disk controller? Who made controllers and > drives (if you could afford one) for these systems. Yes. Morrow made the Disk Jockey. I believe Tarbell also produced a hard drive controller. So did Godbout (CompuPro), and California Computer Systems. I know there are many I'm missing. Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org From fmc at reanimators.org Wed Nov 28 15:19:04 2001 From: fmc at reanimators.org (Frank McConnell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:23:53 2005 Subject: S100 hard drives and controllers In-Reply-To: Sellam Ismail's message of "Wed, 28 Nov 2001 12:27:52 -0800 (PST)" References: Message-ID: <200111282119.fASLJ5h33715@daemonweed.reanimators.org> Sellam Ismail wrote: > Yes. Morrow made the Disk Jockey. I believe Tarbell also produced a hard > drive controller. So did Godbout (CompuPro), and California Computer > Systems. I know there are many I'm missing. Morrow Disk Jockey controllers were floppy-disk controllers. I think their ST-412 interface hard disk controller was called the HDC/DMA or DMAHDC. -Frank McConnell From cmcmanis at mcmanis.com Wed Nov 28 14:52:12 2001 From: cmcmanis at mcmanis.com (Chuck McManis) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:23:53 2005 Subject: S100 hard drives and controllers In-Reply-To: References: <497A9E0467D2D2119B760090271EB8E5879FA3@MAIL10> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20011128125148.02a5ebc0@mcmanis.com> Cromemco made one, Adaptec made a SCSI host adapter. --Chuck At 12:27 PM 11/28/01, you wrote: >On Wed, 28 Nov 2001, Cini, Richard wrote: > > > Did Morrow make a hard disk controller? Who made controllers and > > drives (if you could afford one) for these systems. > >Yes. Morrow made the Disk Jockey. I believe Tarbell also produced a hard >drive controller. So did Godbout (CompuPro), and California Computer >Systems. I know there are many I'm missing. > >Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival >------------------------------------------------------------------------------ >International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org From dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com Wed Nov 28 15:04:41 2001 From: dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com (Douglas Quebbeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:23:53 2005 Subject: S100 hard drives and controllers Message-ID: <7A9BACCEF0171D4FB77019F5104CDD372259BC@jeffserver.tegjeff.com> > > Did Morrow make a hard disk controller? Who made controllers and > > drives (if you could afford one) for these systems. > > Yes. Morrow made the Disk Jockey. I believe Tarbell also produced a hard > drive controller. So did Godbout (CompuPro), and California Computer > Systems. I know there are many I'm missing. The Disk Jockey was the name of the floppy controller; it may well have also been the name of the hard drive controller, but I still have the photo and docs for the floppy controler... -dq From foo at siconic.com Wed Nov 28 15:27:27 2001 From: foo at siconic.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:23:53 2005 Subject: S100 hard drives and controllers In-Reply-To: <7A9BACCEF0171D4FB77019F5104CDD372259BC@jeffserver.tegjeff.com> Message-ID: On Wed, 28 Nov 2001, Douglas Quebbeman wrote: > The Disk Jockey was the name of the floppy controller; it may well > have also been the name of the hard drive controller, but I still have > the photo and docs for the floppy controler... You're right. But Morrow did make a hard drive controller as well. It may have been named something simple like HDC. I'll see if I come across an S-100 board stash today when I'm at my warehouse. Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org From healyzh at aracnet.com Wed Nov 28 13:00:06 2001 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:23:53 2005 Subject: DEC PC04/PR8E Question Message-ID: OK, the last part of my shipment just showed up, the Papertape reader. I'd thought the PC04 was a reader/punch. Am I correct in my revised assumption, that it came in three models; reader/punch, reader, and punch? Now for the first question, should there be anything on the right side (looking from the front) if it's only a reader? For some reason I've a bad feeling that I don't have a complete reader... On a positive note, the PDP-8/E looks to be in *far* better shape than I'd been lead to believe, so hopefully I'll be able to get it up and running with minimal effort (I could be so lucky). Though it's large enough I'm very tempted to transplant pieces into my PDP-8/M and put the /E in storage. Also I got a terrific looking pile of documenation and Volume 3 of the hardware manuals is twice the size of the copy I already had. Most of the manuals are ones I didn't have, and I've finally got a printset :^) Zane -- | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator | | healyzh@aracnet.com (primary) | OpenVMS Enthusiast | | | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | PDP-10 Emulation and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Nov 28 17:15:11 2001 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:23:53 2005 Subject: DEC PC04/PR8E Question In-Reply-To: from "Zane H. Healy" at Nov 28, 1 11:00:06 am Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1109 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20011128/63cc7fa5/attachment.ksh From pcautomation at mindspring.com Wed Nov 28 13:04:53 2001 From: pcautomation at mindspring.com (Computer Automation / Phil Clayton - Consultant) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:23:53 2005 Subject: Classic Computer Collection For Sale Message-ID: <006301c1783f$90ab4220$3331fea9@phil> Hello Everyone, I have come to the conclusion that it is time to sell my entire collection of Old microcomputers. I have collected over the last 20 years over 125 computers, including 10 Kaypro's, 5 or 6 Osbornes,plus the Original Tan case model. 2 Original TRS-80 Model 1's Complete with just about everything ever made for it. Also A Original Commodore PET 2001 with 8kb Ram, and built in Cassette. The Entire Kaypro & Osborne User Group Software on Floppy disks (About 200 ?), Hundreds if not thousands of original manuals, and tech reference books for Osborne, Kaypro, TRS-80. A large collection of old Computer Mags, Several hundred Games still boxed for the Commodore series 64,VIC20, 16, and Plus4.. Most all of my Commodores are in the original boxes and in mint condition. Also have large collection of TI-994A computers including , 2 expansion interfaces, and tons of software and extras. TRS-80's ? Almost the entire collection of the COCO series. Apples, Mac's and several hundred pounds of manuals and software. Lots of old printers, external Hard drives, SCSI Cdrom's, Modems, CGA,EGA,VGA,TTL, Composite (Color & Mono) Monitors, VGACommodore CBM's, TRS-80's.. 1000's of diskettes of utilities, games for CPM computers.. GAD's it way to much to think about and I'm starting to get depressed thinking of parting with it all (Smile..), but I am moving to new things (Getting a Life) and it would be impossible to move or keep this treasure. Again an entire bedroom is full to the ceiling of this stuff, no furniture in that room, just my collection boxed and stacked carefully. Way to many items to mention here, but I have Many Thousands of Dollars invested in my collection, and will sell it mostly at my cost to someone willing to buy it complete. Most all of these items are in Mint condition. You will need a large truck to move it all, as it fills an entire bedroom full to the ceiling. All items are boxed and have been kept in a controlled environment for many years. If you have Several thousand dollars to spend and are serious got a big truck and can travel to Florida to pick it up, I will email you a copy of the list or items.. I would much rather sell this as a whole than take several months and a Hugh amount of time boxing these items one by one.. If interested email me at musicman38@mindspring.com Phil.. From pgentil1 at twcny.rr.com Wed Nov 28 13:16:01 2001 From: pgentil1 at twcny.rr.com (philip gentile) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:23:53 2005 Subject: south west boards Message-ID: <00b301c17841$1f57a710$ee7ca118@cheese> i'm looking to buy bare or populated swtpc mp-a2 and mp-s boards. i would appreciate any help on this. thanks, philip j gentile 1035 smith ridge road bridgeport, ny 13030 315.476.7859 voice 315.476.7865 fax -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20011128/c909b862/attachment.html From CLeyson at aol.com Wed Nov 28 13:28:16 2001 From: CLeyson at aol.com (CLeyson@aol.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:23:54 2005 Subject: Question for HP 9826 owners Message-ID: I have the binaries for HP-9826 HPL. Copied them onto floppy disks, edited the file type directory entries with Lifutil and tried loading them. I get the error message "unexpected use of FFFFFFC4" Can anyone shed any light on this ? Best Regards Chris Leyson -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20011128/0e4e2e18/attachment.html From Innfogra at aol.com Wed Nov 28 14:37:11 2001 From: Innfogra at aol.com (Innfogra@aol.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:23:54 2005 Subject: Spam from _sring@uslink.net?& archive mining Message-ID: <120.7dcc271.2936a4f7@aol.com> I got sent the virus too, by the original poster _sring. Deleted it thanks to the warning on the list. Unfortunately I deleted it before I checked the header. As to Spam from CCMP. I have this one email address that I use only for the CCMP list. I get no Spam at this address, well maybe one or less a month, and then it is talked about a lot on the list so I know everyone got it. I use this list as an example of an excellently run list. I do not see evidence anyone has successfully mined the archives for addresses. Paxton Astoria, OR From donm at cts.com Wed Nov 28 16:26:02 2001 From: donm at cts.com (Don Maslin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:23:54 2005 Subject: Olivetti PR2300 printer Message-ID: Is any one of you cpllectors interested in getting a sample of this early '80s inkjet? A local thrift shop has one - unpriced, but I'd think cheap - that I can pickup and ship on request. But, your request better be quick as I will be away for a week starting Saturday. - don From healyzh at aracnet.com Wed Nov 28 18:15:46 2001 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:23:54 2005 Subject: PDP-8/E Powersupply (was: Re: DEC PC04/PR8E Question) In-Reply-To: from "Tony Duell" at Nov 28, 2001 11:15:11 PM Message-ID: <200111290015.fAT0FkZ05817@shell1.aracnet.com> > > OK, the last part of my shipment just showed up, the Papertape reader. I'd > > thought the PC04 was a reader/punch. Am I correct in my revised > > assumption, that it came in three models; reader/punch, reader, and punch? > > I've heard of punch/reader and reader-only models. Never heard of a > punch-only one. It could exist, though. I'm basing the guess about a Punch only model from the pictures of the switches in the printset I've got. It shows four layouts; Reader, Punch, and two types of Punch/Reader. > Well, on the front there should be a switch panel with 2 swtiches on it > (reader on/off and tape feed). The punch/reader version has 4 swtiches > (The other 2 are the same 2 functions for the punch). That much at least looks complete. > Inside the punch takes up the right hand side of the chassis. The logic > backplane and PSU are on the left (the backplane will be fairly empty for > a reader-only version, I think). The reader sits in the middle -- it's > very simple -- a stepper motor with a large sproket wheel on the shaft, a > 'festoon' lamp, and a phototransistor array. And not a lot else. Hmm, in this case it sounds like I might have a complete Reader if I'm lucky. I've not really spent much time looking at it yet. So far I've spent my time looking into the PDP-8/E. Overall it looks pretty good, in part thanks to the fact that the previous owner had started to restore it a couple years ago. I'm getting ready to see about checking out the powersupply, hopefully either tonite or tomorrow morning. Is it safe to power it on to test the voltages without any kind of a load? Also, is there anyway to 'lubricate' the switches on the front panel? Zane From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Nov 28 19:15:15 2001 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:23:54 2005 Subject: PDP-8/E Powersupply (was: Re: DEC PC04/PR8E Question) In-Reply-To: <200111290015.fAT0FkZ05817@shell1.aracnet.com> from "Zane H. Healy" at Nov 28, 1 04:15:46 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 3392 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20011129/20d6b3ab/attachment.ksh From cisin at xenosoft.com Wed Nov 28 20:19:38 2001 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin (XenoSoft)) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:23:54 2005 Subject: Is it a Lisa or Mac XL?! In-Reply-To: <20011129011514.46604.qmail@web20101.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: > It sucks, but if you scrap hardware, you have to render it useless. Would installing Windoze on it qualify? From tothwolf at concentric.net Wed Nov 28 20:22:52 2001 From: tothwolf at concentric.net (Tothwolf) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:23:54 2005 Subject: Spam from _sring@uslink.net? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Wed, 28 Nov 2001, Fred Cisin (XenoSoft) wrote: > Notice that the virus prepends an unsdersore in front of an otherwise > legitimate address. Guess we could use this to our advantage with mail filters? > And people can't understand why I would prefer PINE on a Unix shell > account over OUTLOOK (aka MS virus transfer protocol) procmail and pine...gotta be the best combination I've found yet. One of these days I'll give mutt a try too. -Toth From cube1 at home.com Wed Nov 28 20:54:35 2001 From: cube1 at home.com (Jay Jaeger) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:23:54 2005 Subject: Worm Alert (Re: Spam from _sring@uslink.net?) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4.3.2.7.2.20011128203743.03d586b8@cirithi> There is a virus / worm going around. Among other things, you can spot it because it seems to replace the sender in the "Reply To:" with one starting with an underscore. At least two of them appropriated subjects related to messages I posted on ClassicCmp -- one referring to the PDP/11-24 power supply stuff and another relating to TU10's. Norton AV on my machine caught messages with it on my way in, and said: is infected with the W32.Badtrans.B@mm virus. The Symantec page http://securityresponse.symantec.com/avcenter/venc/data/w32.badtrans.b@mm.html has information on it. "The worm writes email addresses to the %System%\Protocol.dll file to prevent multiple emails to the same person. Additionally, the sender's email address will have the "_" character prepended to it, to prevent replying to infected mails to warn the sender (eg user@website.com becomes _user@website.com)." Jay At 01:16 AM 11/29/2001 +0000, you wrote: > > > it titled in re: something they previously posted. I guess we have a > second > > > reason to be upset with Mr. (or Ms.) Ring: s/he didn't read at least > one of > > > our brilliant email posts. > > > > To top it all, I just got a copy from > > John R. Keys Jr. <_jrkeys@concentric.net> !! > >As have I, apparently replying to a message that I just posted. It's now >in the bit bucket... > >-tony --- Jay R. Jaeger The Computer Collection cube1@home.com visit http://members.home.net/thecomputercollection From allain at panix.com Wed Nov 28 20:27:46 2001 From: allain at panix.com (John Allain) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:23:54 2005 Subject: Is it a Lisa or Mac XL?! References: <7A9BACCEF0171D4FB77019F5104CDD372259BE@jeffserver.tegjeff.com> Message-ID: <000d01c1787d$6f061800$21fe54a6@ibm23xhr06> > I understand discontinuing a product but could never quite figure out why > you would actually destroy equipment. I mean what is the point? Must be a marketing thing. Not uncommon. There's a matching story about Polaroid accepting 50's era models in trade for a discount on 60's models, then tossing the lot of them. (To be exact, the published folklore said they in this case were tossed into a warehouse but I don't think they actually knew). John A. From allain at panix.com Wed Nov 28 20:28:09 2001 From: allain at panix.com (John Allain) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:23:54 2005 Subject: Martha Stewart References: <7A9BACCEF0171D4FB77019F5104CDD372259BE@jeffserver.tegjeff.com> Message-ID: <000e01c1787d$7c832860$21fe54a6@ibm23xhr06> Martha Stewart had a short radio column today where She actually preached the ethics of classiccmpers. That is, what do you do with old computers? Number 1 was don't toss it (yes), until you check with your local schools, even if you are sure it is obsolete (yes), if you can't place it this way, she continues by mentioning that some people actually collect them as vintage (yes), and then brings up eBay as a sort of last resort (sorry). Good press that we all need. John A. Project Greenkeys. From gwynp at artware.qc.ca Wed Nov 28 20:32:41 2001 From: gwynp at artware.qc.ca (gwynp@artware.qc.ca) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:23:54 2005 Subject: FYI: Otrona 2001 on ebay In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On 28-Nov-2001 Feldman, Robert wrote: > You don't see many of these around. It was a more MS-DOS compatible > model, with a larger screen than the Attache, that came out just before > Otrona went under. > > So far, it's bid is under $40. > > http://cgi.ebay.com/aw-cgi/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=1302397837 > Oh wow. That's computer looks so nice. I covet. 35 pounds shipping, though.... -Philip From geneb at deltasoft.com Wed Nov 28 20:56:26 2001 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (Gene Buckle) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:23:54 2005 Subject: Ampro Littleboard problems.. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <000301c17881$70372120$09c7fec7@dionysus> I've got a Littleboard I'm tring to bring up. When I feed it a disk, and power it up, it will select the drive, spin it and shut down after about 3 to 5 seconds. I never hear a head step. Nothing shows up on the serial port (port a, 9600). The drive I'm using is a Teac FD-54B-02-U and the two jumpers are set to DS0 and IU. Ideas? Tnx! G. From edick at idcomm.com Wed Nov 28 22:48:41 2001 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:23:54 2005 Subject: Ampro Littleboard problems.. References: <000301c17881$70372120$09c7fec7@dionysus> Message-ID: <000701c17891$1eb8c0a0$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> Which model of Little Board? Dick ----- Original Message ----- From: "Gene Buckle" To: Sent: Wednesday, November 28, 2001 7:56 PM Subject: Ampro Littleboard problems.. > I've got a Littleboard I'm tring to bring up. When I feed it a disk, > and power it up, it will select the drive, spin it and shut down after > about 3 to 5 seconds. I never hear a head step. Nothing shows up on the > serial port (port a, 9600). The drive I'm using is a Teac FD-54B-02-U > and the two jumpers are set to DS0 and IU. > > Ideas? > > Tnx! > > G. > > From donm at cts.com Wed Nov 28 23:19:56 2001 From: donm at cts.com (Don Maslin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:23:54 2005 Subject: Ampro Littleboard problems.. In-Reply-To: <000301c17881$70372120$09c7fec7@dionysus> Message-ID: On Wed, 28 Nov 2001, Gene Buckle wrote: > I've got a Littleboard I'm tring to bring up. When I feed it a disk, > and power it up, it will select the drive, spin it and shut down after > about 3 to 5 seconds. I never hear a head step. Nothing shows up on the > serial port (port a, 9600). The drive I'm using is a Teac FD-54B-02-U > and the two jumpers are set to DS0 and IU. I presume that is a typo and it really is an FD-55B. Is it terminated? I assume a straight cable since it is selected. The FD-55s that I use are jumpered DS0 (for straight cable), HS, IU, and SM on the two main jumper headers. PM is also jumpered on its own header. - don > Ideas? > > Tnx! > > G. > > From geneb at deltasoft.com Thu Nov 29 09:58:10 2001 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (Gene Buckle) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:23:54 2005 Subject: Ampro Littleboard problems.. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: > On Wed, 28 Nov 2001, Gene Buckle wrote: > > > I've got a Littleboard I'm tring to bring up. When I feed it a disk, > > and power it up, it will select the drive, spin it and shut down after > > about 3 to 5 seconds. I never hear a head step. Nothing shows up on the > > serial port (port a, 9600). The drive I'm using is a Teac FD-54B-02-U > > and the two jumpers are set to DS0 and IU. > > I presume that is a typo and it really is an FD-55B. Is it terminated? > I assume a straight cable since it is selected. The FD-55s that I use > are jumpered DS0 (for straight cable), HS, IU, and SM on the two main > jumper headers. PM is also jumpered on its own header. > Don, the number on the back of the drive really is FD-54B. As far as termination, I don't know. There is no place for what I would call a "traditional" floppy termination pack. There is a SIP resistor soldered into the board right ahead of the data connector. I don't have the drive in front of me now, but I don't recall seeing "SM" as being a jumper position. I do recall the "HS" labelling however. I don't recall anything marked "PM" at all. Thanks! g. From edick at idcomm.com Thu Nov 29 09:44:52 2001 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:23:54 2005 Subject: Ampro Littleboard problems.. References: Message-ID: <002001c178ec$c985f920$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> Though there are many "Little Board" products from Ampro, the ones I have, which are the originals from back in '83 or so, will produce a prompt if you (1) have no floppy attached, or (2) don't have a diskette in it. If it's not producing that prompt, I'd say you need to look elsewhere than the floppy drive. Aside from single-sided drives, I've never encountered a 48TPI drive that this machine wouldn't boot once it's jumpered for DS0. Nevertheless, if it's not producing the prompt, something's seriously wrong. There aren't many parts that could be broken, but perhaps you should look into which one it might be. My experience has been that if it doesn't produce that prompt, it won't boot under any circumstances. Dick ----- Original Message ----- From: "Gene Buckle" To: Sent: Thursday, November 29, 2001 8:58 AM Subject: Re: Ampro Littleboard problems.. > > On Wed, 28 Nov 2001, Gene Buckle wrote: > > > > > I've got a Littleboard I'm tring to bring up. When I feed it a disk, > > > and power it up, it will select the drive, spin it and shut down after > > > about 3 to 5 seconds. I never hear a head step. Nothing shows up on the > > > serial port (port a, 9600). The drive I'm using is a Teac FD-54B-02-U > > > and the two jumpers are set to DS0 and IU. > > > > I presume that is a typo and it really is an FD-55B. Is it terminated? > > I assume a straight cable since it is selected. The FD-55s that I use > > are jumpered DS0 (for straight cable), HS, IU, and SM on the two main > > jumper headers. PM is also jumpered on its own header. > > > > Don, the number on the back of the drive really is FD-54B. As far as > termination, I don't know. There is no place for what I would call a > "traditional" floppy termination pack. There is a SIP resistor soldered > into the board right ahead of the data connector. I don't have the drive > in front of me now, but I don't recall seeing "SM" as being a jumper > position. I do recall the "HS" labelling however. > > I don't recall anything marked "PM" at all. > > Thanks! > > g. > > > From kevin at xpuppy.freeserve.co.uk Thu Nov 29 01:26:50 2001 From: kevin at xpuppy.freeserve.co.uk (Kevin Murrell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:23:54 2005 Subject: PDP-8/E Powersupply (was: Re: DEC PC04/PR8E Question) In-Reply-To: <200111290015.fAT0FkZ05817@shell1.aracnet.com> Message-ID: You shouldn't really need to lubricate them. I assume you mean they are stiff to move? The line up of the front panel pcb, and the front fascia is quite tight, and it does take some time to get everyting lined up such that all the switches move easily. On my 8E and 8F machines for instance, the front panel card does not push fully down into the bus, but are slightly raised. It is one of those jobs where you need to leave everything loose, gently move the panels around until it lines up, and then screw it together with you third hand! Kevin -----Original Message----- From: owner-classiccmp@classiccmp.org [mailto:owner-classiccmp@classiccmp.org]On Behalf Of Zane H. Healy Sent: 29 November 2001 00:16 To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org Subject: PDP-8/E Powersupply (was: Re: DEC PC04/PR8E Question) Also, is there anyway to 'lubricate' the switches on the front panel? Zane From foo at siconic.com Thu Nov 29 04:31:26 2001 From: foo at siconic.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:23:54 2005 Subject: Is it a Lisa or Mac XL?! In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Wed, 28 Nov 2001, Chris wrote: > So by destroying them beyond hope... they remove them from the market > 100%. > > I personally think this is stupid, but hey, I don't run apple, and > they seem to have their own form of logic. This is not a practice unique to Apple. This is not even a practice unique to the computer industry. Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org From ip500 at home.com Thu Nov 29 06:06:52 2001 From: ip500 at home.com (Craig Smith) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:23:54 2005 Subject: Is it a Lisa or Mac XL?! References: Message-ID: <3C0624DC.B58F16CE@home.com> No, but it smacks of that unique term "demilitarize" that the US military is so fond of! I've seen them removing electronics with a cutting torch!! and just to make sure it's totaly unusable, dropping the radios out of the planes cockpit onto the runway. Or, my other favorite example .. at McDill AFB in Tampa, I watched an Airman knocking holes in the bottom of 5 gal gas cans prior to stacking them for auction ... very effective demilitarizion. Craig Sellam Ismail wrote: > > On Wed, 28 Nov 2001, Chris wrote: > > > So by destroying them beyond hope... they remove them from the market > > 100%. > > > > I personally think this is stupid, but hey, I don't run apple, and > > they seem to have their own form of logic. > > This is not a practice unique to Apple. This is not even a practice > unique to the computer industry. > > Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ > International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org From dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com Thu Nov 29 06:00:45 2001 From: dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com (Douglas Quebbeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:23:54 2005 Subject: Is it a Lisa or Mac XL?! Message-ID: <7A9BACCEF0171D4FB77019F5104CDD372259C0@jeffserver.tegjeff.com> > Scrapping them off the books for tax purposes, in all likelyhood. We > used to have to physically destroy our COMBOARDs before we could write > them off. If we were ever audited and happened to have product that > was logged as scrap, but hadn't been, we would have been in a world > of hurt from either the County Tax officials or perhaps the IRS. > > It sucks, but if you scrap hardware, you have to render it useless. IMHO, all you need to do is ensure there remains no evidence to the contrary... admittedly, it might get very difficult to have 10,000 units disappear with a wink and a handshake... -dq From dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com Thu Nov 29 06:01:47 2001 From: dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com (Douglas Quebbeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:23:54 2005 Subject: Is it a Lisa or Mac XL?! Message-ID: <7A9BACCEF0171D4FB77019F5104CDD372259C1@jeffserver.tegjeff.com> > > It sucks, but if you scrap hardware, you have to render it useless. > > Would installing Windoze on it qualify? That doesn't make it useless, just weighs it downlike a boat anchor... paint it grey, stick it in the bass boat. -dq From kentborg at borg.org Thu Nov 29 07:59:23 2001 From: kentborg at borg.org (Kent Borg) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:23:54 2005 Subject: Spam from _sring@uslink.net? In-Reply-To: ; from cisin@xenosoft.com on Wed, Nov 28, 2001 at 03:36:25PM -0800 References: Message-ID: <20011129085923.C3091@borg.org> On Wed, Nov 28, 2001 at 03:36:25PM -0800, Fred Cisin (XenoSoft) wrote: > This one, the "payload" was in: > README.mp3.scr > I've also gotten earlier today from other mails a couple with a payload > named: > SM3SONG.mp3.scr After feeling left out, I finally got a copy under the guise of "YOU_ARE_FAT!.MP3.scr". It was from a different mailing list. > And people can't understand why I would prefer PINE on a Unix shell > account over OUTLOOK (aka MS virus transfer protocol) Where I work there are all kinds of stupid restrictions--such as thinking that the internet consists of only e-mail and the web, and only having proxies to do those protocols. But there is nothing saying that Outlook or Javascript are dangerous, they are encouraged. I will concede, however, that I have not gotten this virus (yet) through my work e-mail. Their scanning at the servers sometimes works. -kb From whdawson at mlynk.com Thu Nov 29 11:03:16 2001 From: whdawson at mlynk.com (Bill Dawson) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:23:54 2005 Subject: Spam from _sring@uslink.net? In-Reply-To: <20011129085923.C3091@borg.org> Message-ID: S. Ring, IIRC, is Stephanie Ring. She is/was a list member. I'm using Outlook 2000 with the latest Microslop patches/security updates and the latest version of ZoneAlarm, 2.6.357, so I avoided infection. Since the attachment was quarantined, the email I received has a seemingly blank body and no apparent attachment. The subject line is: Re: RE: SWTPc and Microdata (WARNING - LONG EMAIL STILL), which is a reply to an email I sent over a year ago to Jay West (hello, Jay), which he replied to by sending a new email with a different subject line. I'm guessing that Jay still had my original unreplied to email? Checking the properties of the this email does show "size: 30KB (Contains 1 included file(s))". And, here's the header from the email, however I xz-munged the email addresses. Note the underscore in the "From:": Return-Path: Received: from opal.tseinc.com (opal.tseinc.com [209.83.143.19]) by mlynk.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id VAA14949 for ; Wed, 28 Nov 2001 21:59:38 -0500 Received: from aol.com (user@stl-26.tseinc.com [209.83.137.26]) by opal.tseinc.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id TAA73484 for ; Wed, 28 Nov 2001 19:36:03 -0600 (CST) (envelope-from xwest@xtseinc.com) Date: Wed, 28 Nov 2001 19:36:03 -0600 (CST) Message-Id: <200111290136.TAA73484@opal.tseinc.com> From: "Jay West" <_xwest@xtseinc.com> To: zwhdawson@mlynkz.com Subject: Re: RE: SWTPc and Microdata (WARNING - LONG EMAIL STILL) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/related; type="multipart/alternative"; boundary="====_ABC1234567890DEF_====" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Unsent: 1 Status: My sister wasn't so lucky in avoiding the hit, so I'll have to go clean up her system. The infected email in her case came from an eBay user. BTW, FWIW, S. Ring is or was an eBay member. 'til next time, Bill -> On Wed, Nov 28, 2001 at 03:36:25PM -0800, Fred Cisin (XenoSoft) wrote: -> > This one, the "payload" was in: -> > README.mp3.scr -> > I've also gotten earlier today from other mails a couple with a payload -> > named: -> > SM3SONG.mp3.scr From vance at ikickass.org Thu Nov 29 08:40:51 2001 From: vance at ikickass.org (One Without Reason) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:23:54 2005 Subject: Macintosh Message-ID: Could someone tell me what the last version of Macintosh System to run on 68K machines was? Where can I get a copy? Peace... Sridhar From dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com Thu Nov 29 09:21:39 2001 From: dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com (Douglas Quebbeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:23:54 2005 Subject: Macintosh Message-ID: <7A9BACCEF0171D4FB77019F5104CDD372259C8@jeffserver.tegjeff.com> > Could someone tell me what the last version of Macintosh System to run on > 68K machines was? Where can I get a copy? That would be System 6.0.8, and you should be abe to download it from Apple's FTP site. Try navigating through the stuff at http://mirror.apple.com/. -dq From Adrian.Graham at corporatemicrosystems.com Thu Nov 29 09:31:11 2001 From: Adrian.Graham at corporatemicrosystems.com (Adrian Graham) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:23:54 2005 Subject: Macintosh Message-ID: <556916EBC364D511826400508B9A1ADE0218FC@cmlpdc.corporatemicrosystems.com> > -----Original Message----- > From: One Without Reason [mailto:vance@ikickass.org] > Sent: 29 November 2001 14:41 > To: Classic Computers Mailing List > Subject: Macintosh > > > > Could someone tell me what the last version of Macintosh > System to run on > 68K machines was? Where can I get a copy? According to LowEndMac it's either 7.6.1 or 8.1 depending on the machine.... -- Adrian Graham, Corporate Microsystems Ltd e: adrian.graham@corporatemicrosystems.com w: www.corporatemicrosystems.com w2: www.binarydinosaurs.co.uk (Online Computer Museum) From dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com Thu Nov 29 10:09:01 2001 From: dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com (Douglas Quebbeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:23:54 2005 Subject: Macintosh Message-ID: <7A9BACCEF0171D4FB77019F5104CDD372259CA@jeffserver.tegjeff.com> > > Could someone tell me what the last version of Macintosh > > System to run on 68K machines was? Where can I get a copy? > > According to LowEndMac it's either 7.6.1 or 8.1 depending on > the machine.... Adrian's right, I read Sridhar's message wrong... -dq From rhblakeman at kih.net Thu Nov 29 10:11:10 2001 From: rhblakeman at kih.net (Russ Blakeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:23:54 2005 Subject: Macintosh In-Reply-To: Message-ID: I had a Quadra 650 that runs a 68040 and it ran 8.2 fine, never tried more than that but rumor has it that it would run 9.0 I bought 8.2 new int he box on ebay for mine, not sure of a download site. There is info on aspects of Macs at everymac.com that might be of use to you. -> -----Original Message----- -> From: owner-classiccmp@classiccmp.org -> Behalf Of One Without Reason -> Sent: Thursday, November 29, 2001 8:41 AM -> To: Classic Computers Mailing List -> Subject: Macintosh -> -> -> -> Could someone tell me what the last version of Macintosh System to run on -> 68K machines was? Where can I get a copy? -> -> Peace... Sridhar -> -> From zmerch at 30below.com Thu Nov 29 08:43:04 2001 From: zmerch at 30below.com (Roger Merchberger) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:23:54 2005 Subject: Whittling down my collection... In-Reply-To: References: <200111280435.UAA09228@stockholm.ptloma.edu> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20011129091630.00acc678@mail.30below.com> Well, folks -- I'm waiting for word on a new house (well, an *old* new house - it was built somewhere around the turn of the last century) and I *seriously* need to whittle down my collection... I know I don't have time to skidingle with most of what I have, and I don't have time to meticulously catalog & ship everything myself, so everything that I'm getting rid of is mainly for the cost of professional packing & shipping... and maybe a buck or few, if the garage sale [car boot sale] tags are still on my "rescued" items... ;-) This is how it's going to work: I'm cleaning my basement out a little at a time, so there will only be a few things per post. For the first 24 hours after my post, if more than 1 person is really interested in the equipment, I'll random-number generate the winner, this is to give those with slower internet connections an equal chance of getting "da goods" -- after 24 hours, it's first come, first serve. If I get no responses in 1 week, it hits the dumpster. [sorry, but I have no choice -- no room in the "new" digs] I've already given away my Timex Sinclair 1000 stuff to my realtor (now, that was Kismet! ;-) and my coleco Adam stuff to my renter, (in the same day, no less!!! ;-) so they've got good homes. I'm also getting rid of my 8-bit Atari stuff, all my Commodore stuff, my TI 99/4a stuff, anything IBM compatible stuff, all my CP/M stuff ( I have 2 superbrains & 2 Heath/Zenith Z100's) ATLGO [and the list goes on...] Std. Disclaimer -- all stuff is sold as-is, no warranty... I am keeping all of my non-IBM compat. Tandy stuff, my Atari 16-bit stuff, my HP64000 (of course!) and my VAXen, and certain other tidbits, so I still have my work cut out for me... :-) Today, this is what I have: An external Wangtek 525Meg SCSI-1 tape drive [dunno if it's ezactly 10 years old, but it's durned close!] and 25 cartridges (and 2 empty cases) in "last known working" condition - I had it hooked up 3 or 4 years ago, and worked fine -- but no guarantees beyond that. Yours for the cost of packing & shipping. I'm having a hell of a time finding enough boxes for the stuff I'm keeping -- everything to go out is getting packed at the pack-n-ship place right next door to my business. "Let the experts deal with it... ;-)" And beware - they have to surcharge UPS/FedEx to keep the lights & heat on (and it's snowing here in Northern Michigan) so if you go to UPS/FedEx's website and say "you're overcharging me on shipping" I'll scan in the receipts for you & put them on a webpage for your perusal... ;-) I have no quibbles about shipping internationally... if you're willing to pay the price! (Well, if you live 30 minutes or less from Sault Ste. Marie Michigan, USA/Ontario, Canada, I'll deliver it personally... ;-) If anyone's willing to pick-up, that's always an option, as well -- quickie directions: Take I-75 north until you hit the US/Canadian border - there I am. If you're interested, email me with your zip code, and I'll go over to the pack-n-ship place, have it packed & find out the shipping cost... Thanks, and hopefully the dumpster won't get too much business from me... -- Roger "Merch" Merchberger --- sysadmin, Iceberg Computers Recycling is good, right??? Ok, so I'll recycle an *older* .sig. (circa 1997!) Why does Hershey's put nutritional information on their candy bar wrappers when there's no nutritional value within? From fernande at internet1.net Thu Nov 29 10:25:20 2001 From: fernande at internet1.net (Chad Fernandez) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:23:54 2005 Subject: Whittling down my collection... References: <200111280435.UAA09228@stockholm.ptloma.edu> <5.1.0.14.2.20011129091630.00acc678@mail.30below.com> Message-ID: <3C066170.88AADAF5@internet1.net> Snow? yuck..... please don't let any escape to Southwest Michigan! Chad Fernandez Michigan, USA Roger Merchberger wrote: > "Let the experts deal with it... ;-)" And beware - they have to surcharge > UPS/FedEx to keep the lights & heat on (and it's snowing here in Northern > Michigan) > Roger "Merch" Merchberger --- sysadmin, Iceberg Computers From jss at subatomix.com Thu Nov 29 11:46:01 2001 From: jss at subatomix.com (Jeffrey S. Sharp) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:23:54 2005 Subject: Whittling down my collection... In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20011129091630.00acc678@mail.30below.com> Message-ID: <20011129114252.L43586-100000@lepton.subatomix.com> On Thu, 29 Nov 2001, Roger Merchberger wrote: > Well, folks -- I'm waiting for word on a new house (well, an *old* new > house - it was built somewhere around the turn of the last century) > and I *seriously* need to whittle down my collection... I am sorry that you must do that. I will, of course, do my part to help you by offering to take a few things as they become available. :-) I wish you good luck in moving; it is one of the most dreaded tasks of a classiccmper. -- Jeffrey S. Sharp jss@subatomix.com From rigdonj at intellistar.net Thu Nov 29 08:54:16 2001 From: rigdonj at intellistar.net (Joe) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:23:54 2005 Subject: Question for HP 9826 owners In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20011129095416.007a7100@mailhost.intellistar.net> Chris, I've used the 9826 and other 9000 200s quite a bit so I may be able to help. At 02:28 PM 11/28/01 EST, you wrote: >I have the binaries for HP-9826 HPL. Copied them onto floppy disks, What did you copy them from? When you say that you have the binaries, what exactly do you mean? The only binaries that I've seen for the 9826 are the .BIN files that are used with BASIC. They're language extentions and device divers files that can be included in the main OS file or loaded separately. But HPL is a complete stand alone OS and it doesn't use .BIN files. >edited the file type directory entries with Lifutil and tried loading them. Why did you edit them? Lifutil is erratic. The problem is that HP used lots of different formats for LIF files and the file descriptor byte is loaded in different places in different LIF files and Lifutil can't find many of them so it doesn't accurately interpet the file structure therefore it frequently "scrambles" files. >I get the error message "unexpected use of FFFFFFC4" >Can anyone shed any light on this ? That's a common error message. I don't know exactly what it means but I've seen it on HP systems when you try to load an OS that doesn't match the machine that you have, such as HP-UX for a 9000/380 on a 9826. BTW does anyone know what System_HG might be? One of my drives displays that as a stored operating system but none of the machines that I have can load it (and I've tried it on lots of different HPs). I get the same "unexpected use of FFFFFFC4" message or something very similar. Note that in BASIC when you create your own OS by selectively adding .BIN files to it you can then save that OS back the drive and later it will display on the list of OSs and you can boot it directly. The point is that you can give it any name you want (but the given name affects wheather or not it displays as an OS) so the name may not have any significnace. Joe > >Best Regards >Chris Leyson From hansp at aconit.org Thu Nov 29 09:48:13 2001 From: hansp at aconit.org (Hans B Pufal) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:23:54 2005 Subject: Concise list of different Mac models Message-ID: <3C0658BD.7090308@aconit.org> Hi there, Does anyone know of a web page which list all the different Mac models showing basic specs like processer and speed, memory and disk sizes? I keep seeing Macs in the stores but can't keep all the model names and numbers straight so a one or two sheet list describing them would be very useful. If no-one comes up with this I may just make one up from the Apple Spec Database - in that case I'd like to know what key spec items should be listed. -- hbp From jrasite at eoni.com Thu Nov 29 10:30:19 2001 From: jrasite at eoni.com (Jim Arnott) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:23:54 2005 Subject: Concise list of different Mac models References: <3C0658BD.7090308@aconit.org> Message-ID: <3C066296.20F116B@eoni.com> try Jim From hansp at aconit.org Thu Nov 29 11:10:31 2001 From: hansp at aconit.org (Hans B Pufal) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:23:54 2005 Subject: Concise list of different Mac models References: <3C0658BD.7090308@aconit.org> <3C066296.20F116B@eoni.com> Message-ID: <3C066C07.7030102@aconit.org> Jim Arnott wrote: > try Perhasp I'm missing it, but this seems like the other site, lots of useful information, but no complete, concise listing on a single page -- hbp From dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com Thu Nov 29 10:34:25 2001 From: dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com (Douglas Quebbeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:23:54 2005 Subject: Concise list of different Mac models Message-ID: <7A9BACCEF0171D4FB77019F5104CDD372259CC@jeffserver.tegjeff.com> > Hi there, > > Does anyone know of a web page which list all the different Mac models > showing basic specs like processer and speed, memory and disk sizes? > > I keep seeing Macs in the stores but can't keep all the model names and > numbers straight so a one or two sheet list describing them would be > very useful. > > If no-one comes up with this I may just make one up from the Apple Spec > Database - in that case I'd like to know what key spec items should be > listed. That's what I did- just print out AppleSpec into book form. -dq From jhellige at earthlink.net Thu Nov 29 10:47:50 2001 From: jhellige at earthlink.net (Jeff Hellige) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:23:54 2005 Subject: Concise list of different Mac models In-Reply-To: <3C0658BD.7090308@aconit.org> References: <3C0658BD.7090308@aconit.org> Message-ID: <01Nov29.130013est.119134@gateway.mediacen.navy.mil> >If no-one comes up with this I may just make one up from the Apple >Spec Database - in that case I'd like to know what key spec items >should be listed. That's probably what I would do, as there's even a version to run under Windows at: http://homepage.mac.com/applespec/ It has all the information you're looking for, just not on a single page broken down by model and specs. Jeff -- Home of the TRS-80 Model 2000 FAQ File http://www.cchaven.com http://www.geocities.com/siliconvalley/lakes/6757 From jss at subatomix.com Thu Nov 29 11:41:56 2001 From: jss at subatomix.com (Jeffrey S. Sharp) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:23:54 2005 Subject: Concise list of different Mac models In-Reply-To: <3C0658BD.7090308@aconit.org> Message-ID: <20011129114120.O43586-100000@lepton.subatomix.com> On Thu, 29 Nov 2001, Hans B Pufal wrote: > Does anyone know of a web page which list all the different Mac models > showing basic specs like processer and speed, memory and disk sizes? Add pictures, too. -- Jeffrey S. Sharp jss@subatomix.com From rhblakeman at kih.net Thu Nov 29 10:11:11 2001 From: rhblakeman at kih.net (Russ Blakeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:23:54 2005 Subject: Martha Stewart In-Reply-To: <000e01c1787d$7c832860$21fe54a6@ibm23xhr06> Message-ID: Surprised she didn't preach using them as decorative items - a "good thing" -> -----Original Message----- -> From: owner-classiccmp@classiccmp.org -> [mailto:owner-classiccmp@classiccmp.org]On Behalf Of John Allain -> Sent: Wednesday, November 28, 2001 8:28 PM -> To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org -> Subject: Martha Stewart -> -> -> Martha Stewart had a short radio column today -> where She actually preached the ethics of classiccmpers. -> That is, what do you do with old computers? Number 1 -> was don't toss it (yes), until you check with your local schools, -> even if you are sure it is obsolete (yes), if you can't place -> it this way, she continues by mentioning that some people -> actually collect them as vintage (yes), and then brings up -> eBay as a sort of last resort (sorry). -> -> Good press that we all need. -> -> John A. -> Project Greenkeys. -> -> From fernande at internet1.net Thu Nov 29 10:56:54 2001 From: fernande at internet1.net (Chad Fernandez) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:23:54 2005 Subject: Martha Stewart References: Message-ID: <3C0668D6.BAE5AAF0@internet1.net> That's kind of weird, I wouldn't have thought Martha Stewart would even consider computers to be in her realm of influence. I've actually though of painting a computer using Martha Stewartish techniques...... like stamping or rag rolling or maybe some of that stone fleck stuff. I haven't done it yet, Though. It will still be a functioning computer, just a little more creative. Chad Fernandez Michigan, USA Russ Blakeman wrote: > > Surprised she didn't preach using them as decorative items - a "good thing" > > -> > -> Martha Stewart had a short radio column today > -> where She actually preached the ethics of classiccmpers. > -> That is, what do you do with old computers? Number 1 > -> was don't toss it (yes), until you check with your local schools, > -> even if you are sure it is obsolete (yes), if you can't place > -> it this way, she continues by mentioning that some people > -> actually collect them as vintage (yes), and then brings up > -> eBay as a sort of last resort (sorry). > -> > -> Good press that we all need. > -> > -> John A. > -> Project Greenkeys. > -> > -> From george at racsys.rt.rain.com Thu Nov 29 11:08:38 2001 From: george at racsys.rt.rain.com (George Leo Rachor Jr.) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:23:54 2005 Subject: Martha Stewart In-Reply-To: <3C0668D6.BAE5AAF0@internet1.net> Message-ID: Her column the day before was about cleaning the computer (outside only)... George Rachor ========================================================= George L. Rachor Jr. george@rachors.com Hillsboro, Oregon http://rachors.com United States of America Amateur Radio : KD7DCX On Thu, 29 Nov 2001, Chad Fernandez wrote: > That's kind of weird, I wouldn't have thought Martha Stewart would even > consider computers to be in her realm of influence. > > I've actually though of painting a computer using Martha Stewartish > techniques...... like stamping or rag rolling or maybe some of that > stone fleck stuff. I haven't done it yet, Though. It will still be a > functioning computer, just a little more creative. > > Chad Fernandez > Michigan, USA > > Russ Blakeman wrote: > > > > Surprised she didn't preach using them as decorative items - a "good thing" > > > > -> > > -> Martha Stewart had a short radio column today > > -> where She actually preached the ethics of classiccmpers. > > -> That is, what do you do with old computers? Number 1 > > -> was don't toss it (yes), until you check with your local schools, > > -> even if you are sure it is obsolete (yes), if you can't place > > -> it this way, she continues by mentioning that some people > > -> actually collect them as vintage (yes), and then brings up > > -> eBay as a sort of last resort (sorry). > > -> > > -> Good press that we all need. > > -> > > -> John A. > > -> Project Greenkeys. > > -> > > -> > From menadeau at mediaone.net Thu Nov 29 11:14:02 2001 From: menadeau at mediaone.net (Michael Nadeau) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:23:54 2005 Subject: Martha Stewart References: <3C0668D6.BAE5AAF0@internet1.net> Message-ID: <020c01c178f9$41896e00$0b01a8c0@ValuedCustomer> A couple of years ago, she dated Charles Simonyi, chief software architect of Microsoft and former Xerox PARC scientist who wrote the first WYSIWYG word processor. Maybe that's where she gets it. --Mike Michael Nadeau Editorial Services 603-893-2379 ----- Original Message ----- From: "Chad Fernandez" To: Sent: Thursday, November 29, 2001 11:56 AM Subject: Re: Martha Stewart > That's kind of weird, I wouldn't have thought Martha Stewart would even > consider computers to be in her realm of influence. > > I've actually though of painting a computer using Martha Stewartish > techniques...... like stamping or rag rolling or maybe some of that > stone fleck stuff. I haven't done it yet, Though. It will still be a > functioning computer, just a little more creative. > > Chad Fernandez > Michigan, USA > > Russ Blakeman wrote: > > > > Surprised she didn't preach using them as decorative items - a "good thing" > > > > -> > > -> Martha Stewart had a short radio column today > > -> where She actually preached the ethics of classiccmpers. > > -> That is, what do you do with old computers? Number 1 > > -> was don't toss it (yes), until you check with your local schools, > > -> even if you are sure it is obsolete (yes), if you can't place > > -> it this way, she continues by mentioning that some people > > -> actually collect them as vintage (yes), and then brings up > > -> eBay as a sort of last resort (sorry). > > -> > > -> Good press that we all need. > > -> > > -> John A. > > -> Project Greenkeys. > > -> > > -> > From healyzh at aracnet.com Thu Nov 29 11:52:06 2001 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:23:54 2005 Subject: Martha Stewart In-Reply-To: References: <000e01c1787d$7c832860$21fe54a6@ibm23xhr06> Message-ID: >Surprised she didn't preach using them as decorative items - a "good thing" You mean you don't use some of yours as decorative items or furnature? :^) Zane -- | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator | | healyzh@aracnet.com (primary) | OpenVMS Enthusiast | | | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | PDP-10 Emulation and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | From hansp at aconit.org Thu Nov 29 10:49:43 2001 From: hansp at aconit.org (Hans B Pufal) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:23:54 2005 Subject: History of Computing exam question : Message-ID: <3C066727.30408@aconit.org> Your are charged with arranging an exhibition to illustrate the history of computing. Due to a sufficiently advanced technology you can recover any historical machine or artifact without cost. List the 20 to 30 systems you would display and briefly explain the reason for choosing each. -- hbp : just for fun ;) From erd_6502 at yahoo.com Thu Nov 29 12:38:55 2001 From: erd_6502 at yahoo.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:23:54 2005 Subject: Scrapping hardware to get it off the books (RE: Is it a Lisa or Mac XL?!) In-Reply-To: <7A9BACCEF0171D4FB77019F5104CDD372259C0@jeffserver.tegjeff.com> Message-ID: <20011129183855.32315.qmail@web20102.mail.yahoo.com> --- Douglas Quebbeman wrote: > > Scrapping them off the books for tax purposes, in all likelyhood. > > > > It sucks, but if you scrap hardware, you have to render it useless. > > IMHO, all you need to do is ensure there remains no evidence to > the contrary... admittedly, it might get very difficult to have > 10,000 units disappear with a wink and a handshake... But the risks... DEC got in some hot water over their scrapping procedures... they took bids, by the pound, for defective product that was deemed not worth fixing after assembly. They expected the scrapper to reclaim the metals. The problem was that the scrapper was cherry-picking valuable chips/boards out of defective assemblies and repairing/selling them as "used", _then_ reclaiming the metals on the remainder. The scrapper would inflate the bid, expecting to make up the difference on the diversionary sales. When supposedly scrapped S/Ns began appearing on the used market, as I was told, DEC learned of the scheme, and, without telling the bidding scrappers, installed a chipper to convert the material to pieces no larger than about 5cm on a side, steel racks included. I heard the next scrapper was most surprised when he big on a load of scrap that really was a load of scrap. __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! GeoCities - quick and easy web site hosting, just $8.95/month. http://geocities.yahoo.com/ps/info1 From dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com Thu Nov 29 13:26:11 2001 From: dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com (Douglas Quebbeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:23:54 2005 Subject: Scrapping hardware to get it off the books (RE: Is it a Lisa or Mac XL?!) Message-ID: <7A9BACCEF0171D4FB77019F5104CDD372259D5@jeffserver.tegjeff.com> > When supposedly scrapped S/Ns began appearing on the used market, > as I was told, DEC learned of the scheme, and, without telling the > bidding scrappers, installed a chipper to convert the material > to pieces no larger than about 5cm on a side, steel racks included. > I heard the next scrapper was most surprised when he big on a load of > scrap that really was a load of scrap. This brings me to a question that's probably been discussed here; I just recently found the local computer recycling firm. I was luck enought to pull two late-model Apple //e's from a cardboard box sitting in front of the business during the Thanksgiving holiday. Also two Apple 5.25 inch flopppies, a 130MB Seagate IDE drive, a 550MB (?) Seagate IDE drive, and a rather nice late-model compact IBM keyboard (has Windows key). But the firm had some interesting stuff in the fenced-in yard. Should I even bother going back and asking to see the stuff in the yard? Or, has this firm agreed not to resell anything (I'm kinda assuming that what's true for this guy is industry standard). -dq From foo at siconic.com Thu Nov 29 15:16:21 2001 From: foo at siconic.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:23:54 2005 Subject: Scrapping hardware to get it off the books (RE: Is it a Lisa or Mac XL?!) In-Reply-To: <7A9BACCEF0171D4FB77019F5104CDD372259D5@jeffserver.tegjeff.com> Message-ID: On Thu, 29 Nov 2001, Douglas Quebbeman wrote: > Should I even bother going back and asking to see the stuff in the > yard? Or, has this firm agreed not to resell anything (I'm kinda > assuming that what's true for this guy is industry standard). It never hurts to ask, right? Unless he chases you away with a shotgun loaded with rock salt. That would hurt. Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org From mythtech at Mac.com Thu Nov 29 14:14:35 2001 From: mythtech at Mac.com (Chris) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:23:54 2005 Subject: Scrapping hardware to get it off the books (RE: Is it a Lisa or Mac XL?!) Message-ID: >Should I even bother going back and asking to see the stuff >in the yard? Or, has this firm agreed not to resell anything >(I'm kinda assuming that what's true for this guy is industry >standard). I don't know the laws, but why shouldn't a scapper be allowed to sell the stuff in working condition? They are in the scrap business, and I would think once it is theirs, they should be allowed to sell it however they want (pulverize and sell as land fill, or repair and sell as working). Is there some law against selling the stuff in working condition? -chris From Innfogra at aol.com Thu Nov 29 14:32:53 2001 From: Innfogra at aol.com (Innfogra@aol.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:23:54 2005 Subject: Scrapping hardware to get it off the books (RE: Is it a Lisa or Mac XL?!) Message-ID: In a message dated 11/29/01 11:34:58 AM Pacific Standard Time, dhquebbeman@theestopinalgroup.com writes: > Should I even bother going back and asking to see the stuff > in the yard? Or, has this firm agreed not to resell anything > (I'm kinda assuming that what's true for this guy is industry > standard). > > Go back. It always pays to ask. Most scrap dealers buy outright their scrap. Ii is only a small portion of the contracts that specify no resale. And certified destruction is a very small part of the scrap business. We only had two or three certified destruction contracts in the years I worked with a scrapper. One were the BIIN computers. Another was 600 Fujitsu 2333 HDs, that was an interesting week of work. Paxton Hoag Astoria, OR -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20011129/646eb6e4/attachment.html From Innfogra at aol.com Thu Nov 29 14:51:53 2001 From: Innfogra at aol.com (Innfogra@aol.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:23:54 2005 Subject: Scrapping hardware to get it off the books (RE: Is it a Lisa or Mac XL?!) Message-ID: <13d.555831a.2937f9e9@aol.com> In a message dated 11/29/01 12:23:30 PM Pacific Standard Time, mythtech@Mac.com writes: > Is there some law against selling the stuff in working condition? > > Contract Law. While most surplus sales are outright sales many are contract sales which may have restrictive clauses. How willing the scrapper is to violate contract law, a civil matter, varies widely. Certified destruction is a contract where destruction is usually certified by an outside auditor. A good scrapper holds to his contracts in order to get repeat business and maintain his reputation as reliable. There are many shady and fly by night people in the scrap business. There are many good and reliable people too. Paxton Astoria, OR Pa -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20011129/f1859d5a/attachment.html From CLeyson at aol.com Thu Nov 29 14:57:11 2001 From: CLeyson at aol.com (CLeyson@aol.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:23:55 2005 Subject: Scrapping hardware to get it off the books (RE: Is it a Lisa or Mac XL?!) Message-ID: <61.17559262.2937fb27@aol.com> > Should I even bother going back and asking to see the stuff > in the yard? Or, has this firm agreed not to resell anything > (I'm kinda assuming that what's true for this guy is industry > standard). It's worth asking. I recently bought a scrapped Takeda Riken audio spectrum analyzer from my employers. It's been gathering dust for the last 5 to 6 years. They were glad to rid of it and I have a broken toy with a 16-bit bit-slice processor. Chris -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20011129/5356aea7/attachment.html From dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com Thu Nov 29 14:57:34 2001 From: dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com (Douglas Quebbeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:23:55 2005 Subject: Scrapping hardware to get it off the books (RE: Is it a Lisa or Mac XL?!) Message-ID: <7A9BACCEF0171D4FB77019F5104CDD372259DC@jeffserver.tegjeff.com> > >Should I even bother going back and asking to see the stuff > >in the yard? Or, has this firm agreed not to resell anything > >(I'm kinda assuming that what's true for this guy is industry > >standard). > > I don't know the laws, but why shouldn't a scapper be allowed to sell the > stuff in working condition? They are in the scrap business, and I would > think once it is theirs, they should be allowed to sell it however they > want (pulverize and sell as land fill, or repair and sell as working). > > Is there some law against selling the stuff in working condition? If they purchase it from the original owners with the understanding that the stuff will be destroyed instead of resold, it would be a breach of (probably verbal) contract. -dq From csmith at amdocs.com Thu Nov 29 15:13:17 2001 From: csmith at amdocs.com (Christopher Smith) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:23:55 2005 Subject: Scrapping hardware to get it off the books (RE: Is it a Lisa or Mac XL?!) Message-ID: <3B55D7F383B0D31197D9009027541CBF1170DEFA@cmiexch1.cmi.itds.com> > -----Original Message----- > From: Douglas Quebbeman [mailto:dhquebbeman@theestopinalgroup.com] > But the firm had some interesting stuff in the fenced-in yard. > Should I even bother going back and asking to see the stuff > in the yard? Or, has this firm agreed not to resell anything > (I'm kinda assuming that what's true for this guy is industry > standard). By all means, go back and see what they say. Generally I've found that hardware is fair game to repair (if needed) and re-sell. Most won't touch the software because of legal problems, but some are more zealous about removing it than others. (some also leave it to the people throwing the stuff away to remove software, which often isn't done) Regards, Chris Christopher Smith, Perl Developer Amdocs - Champaign, IL /usr/bin/perl -e ' print((~"\x95\xc4\xe3"^"Just Another Perl Hacker.")."\x08!\n"); ' From csmith at amdocs.com Thu Nov 29 15:19:50 2001 From: csmith at amdocs.com (Christopher Smith) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:23:55 2005 Subject: Scrapping hardware to get it off the books (RE: Is it a Lisa or Mac XL?!) Message-ID: <3B55D7F383B0D31197D9009027541CBF1170DEFB@cmiexch1.cmi.itds.com> > -----Original Message----- > From: Chris [mailto:mythtech@Mac.com] > I don't know the laws, but why shouldn't a scapper be allowed > to sell the > stuff in working condition? They are in the scrap business, > and I would > think once it is theirs, they should be allowed to sell it > however they > want (pulverize and sell as land fill, or repair and sell as working). > Is there some law against selling the stuff in working condition? I doubt it. There may be very few contracts that require this sort of thing, but honestly, if the company scrapping the equipment was that worried about it, they'd scrap it themselves. I have heard that NSA does this, and that further they (to paraphrase) "slag their disks and post armed guards around the slag." Most companies likely just throw the stuff out and don't care what happens to it afterwards. Regards, Chris Christopher Smith, Perl Developer Amdocs - Champaign, IL /usr/bin/perl -e ' print((~"\x95\xc4\xe3"^"Just Another Perl Hacker.")."\x08!\n"); ' From mythtech at Mac.com Thu Nov 29 16:14:53 2001 From: mythtech at Mac.com (Chris) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:23:55 2005 Subject: Scrapping hardware to get it off the books (RE: Is it a Lisa or Mac XL?!) Message-ID: >> Is there some law against selling the stuff in working condition? >Contract Law. While most surplus sales are outright sales many are contract >sales which may have restrictive clauses. How willing the scrapper is to >violate contract law, a civil matter, varies widely. Ok, so then there is no direct law that says items sold as scrap have to remain scrap. So if a company sells 1000 working computers as scrap, and doesn't specify that they have to be destroyed (although I am sure they would specify that), then the scrapper is under no obligation to trash them, and can sell them as working systems. That is kind of what I thought the deal would be (and should be). -chris From dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com Thu Nov 29 16:22:59 2001 From: dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com (Douglas Quebbeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:23:55 2005 Subject: Scrapping hardware to get it off the books (RE: Is it a Lisa or Mac XL?!) Message-ID: <7A9BACCEF0171D4FB77019F5104CDD372259DF@jeffserver.tegjeff.com> > On Thu, 29 Nov 2001, Douglas Quebbeman wrote: > > > Should I even bother going back and asking to see the stuff in the > > yard? Or, has this firm agreed not to resell anything (I'm kinda > > assuming that what's true for this guy is industry standard). > > It never hurts to ask, right? > > Unless he chases you away with a shotgun loaded with rock salt. That > would hurt. My only concern is that I might get asked "are you the guy in the red Audi who was diggint through my stuff?" ;) -dq From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Thu Nov 29 13:03:41 2001 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (Ben Franchuk) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:23:55 2005 Subject: Scrapping hardware to get it off the books (RE: Is it a Lisa or Mac XL?!) References: <7A9BACCEF0171D4FB77019F5104CDD372259DF@jeffserver.tegjeff.com> Message-ID: <3C06868D.829B1DC6@jetnet.ab.ca> Douglas Quebbeman wrote: > > > On Thu, 29 Nov 2001, Douglas Quebbeman wrote: > > > > > Should I even bother going back and asking to see the stuff in the > > > yard? Or, has this firm agreed not to resell anything (I'm kinda > > > assuming that what's true for this guy is industry standard). > > > > It never hurts to ask, right? > > > > Unless he chases you away with a shotgun loaded with rock salt. That > > would hurt. > > My only concern is that I might get asked "are you the guy in > the red Audi who was diggint through my stuff?" > > ;) > > -dq paint the car! :) -- Ben Franchuk --- Pre-historic Cpu's -- www.jetnet.ab.ca/users/bfranchuk/index.html From foo at siconic.com Thu Nov 29 16:44:00 2001 From: foo at siconic.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:23:55 2005 Subject: Scrapping hardware to get it off the books (RE: Is it a Lisa or Mac XL?!) In-Reply-To: <7A9BACCEF0171D4FB77019F5104CDD372259DF@jeffserver.tegjeff.com> Message-ID: On Thu, 29 Nov 2001, Douglas Quebbeman wrote: > > Unless he chases you away with a shotgun loaded with rock salt. That > > would hurt. > > My only concern is that I might get asked "are you the guy in > the red Audi who was diggint through my stuff?" Take the bus. Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org From dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com Thu Nov 29 16:25:48 2001 From: dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com (Douglas Quebbeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:23:55 2005 Subject: Scrapping hardware to get it off the books (RE: Is it a Lisa or Mac XL?!) Message-ID: <7A9BACCEF0171D4FB77019F5104CDD372259E0@jeffserver.tegjeff.com> > I doubt it. There may be very few contracts that require this sort of > thing, but honestly, if the company scrapping the equipment was that worried > about it, they'd scrap it themselves. I have heard that NSA does this, and > that further they (to paraphrase) "slag their disks and post armed guards > around the slag." it's true; a friend has a CDC 1700, formerly NSA property... and nothing that could hold software was part of the deal (although I think he got to keep the core). -dq From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Nov 29 15:06:26 2001 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:23:55 2005 Subject: 5.25" low-capacity hard disks (was Re: Is it a Lisa or Mac XL?!) In-Reply-To: <20011129184655.37589.qmail@web20105.mail.yahoo.com> from "Ethan Dicks" at Nov 29, 1 10:46:55 am Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 3054 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20011129/0a90b1e1/attachment.ksh From jhellige at earthlink.net Thu Nov 29 08:56:22 2001 From: jhellige at earthlink.net (Jeff Hellige) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:23:55 2005 Subject: Macintosh In-Reply-To: <7A9BACCEF0171D4FB77019F5104CDD372259C8@jeffserver.tegjeff.com> References: <7A9BACCEF0171D4FB77019F5104CDD372259C8@jeffserver.tegjeff.com> Message-ID: <01Nov29.153437est.119147@gateway.mediacen.navy.mil> > > Could someone tell me what the last version of Macintosh System to run on >> 68K machines was? Where can I get a copy? > >That would be System 6.0.8, and you should be abe to >download it from Apple's FTP site. Try navigating >through the stuff at http://mirror.apple.com/. Actually, up to System 7.5.5 easily runs on 68k Mac's such as Quadra 605's (which use a 68040). I believe System 8.1 will also run on some 68k Mac's though 8.5 requires a PPC. For a minimalist machine, System 7.1 certainly runs well. Jeff -- Home of the TRS-80 Model 2000 FAQ File http://www.cchaven.com http://www.geocities.com/siliconvalley/lakes/6757 From mythtech at Mac.com Thu Nov 29 12:01:48 2001 From: mythtech at Mac.com (Chris) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:23:55 2005 Subject: Macintosh Message-ID: >Could someone tell me what the last version of Macintosh System to run on >68K machines was? Where can I get a copy? Varies with the machine. Which 68k processor (68000, 020, 030, 040), 32 bit clean? The best place to find out what the last supported OS is, is check the apple spec database. Down at the bottom of each mac's listing is a list of supported OS versions. Supported is a key term here, some can use versions that are not supported, but you use them at your own risk. And don't assume similar machines will always support the same OSes. For instance, the Centris/Quadra 610 lists 8.0 as the last supported OS, but other 040 machines like the Quadra 605 (a machine that is actually a step down from the 610), can support 8.1. I can tell you from experience, the 610 will accept an 8.1 install, and will even run for some time... but you will eventually find that the finder will drag to a halt (even scrolling a window will cause the watch to spin longer and longer, finally topping out at about 5 minutes of spinning). And it will eventually corrupt the hard drive. So for the 610, stop at 8.0, but the 605 can go to 8.1 safely. You really need to check the spec database on a machine by machine basis. And even then, it might pay to think about it, ie: my Classic II can support 7.6.1, but it runs faster and smoother, and uses less RAM if I stop at 7.5.5. A general rule of thumb is, 6.0.8 for < 1mb Mac's, 7.5.5 for all other 68000, 7.6.1 for 020's and 030's, and 8.1 for 040's. But there are the flukes in there like the Centris/Quadra 610, so just check before you install. As for getting them, System 6.0.8 (the last pre 7 version) is available on Apple's web site for free. So is System 7.5.5. Anything newer you will need to find used somewhere (many mac resellers have old OS CDs for sale cheap... or just ask a friend that has a version to dupe it for you, short of OS 9 and X, Apple probably won't care... but you do that at your own risk, they might care, who knows). Older OS versions (pre 6) used to be available on Apple's FTP site if you dug around, but I am not sure they are still there. And as a silly aside... has anyone ever tried running OS 7.0.1P on a 128k Mac? According to Apple's Spec database, that is the last supported version for the 128k... I have always wondered if it is a typo, or if it really can run System 7 (someday maybe I will try it with mine) -chris From cmurillo at emtelsa.multi.net.co Thu Nov 29 13:03:44 2001 From: cmurillo at emtelsa.multi.net.co (Carlos Murillo) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:23:55 2005 Subject: Macintosh In-Reply-To: <556916EBC364D511826400508B9A1ADE0218FC@cmlpdc.corporatemic rosystems.com> Message-ID: <3.0.2.32.20011129140344.018007c0@obregon.multi.net.co> At 03:31 PM 11/29/01 -0000, you wrote: >> Could someone tell me what the last version of Macintosh >> System to run on >> 68K machines was? Where can I get a copy? > >According to LowEndMac it's either 7.6.1 or 8.1 depending on the machine.... > >-- >Adrian Graham, Corporate Microsystems Ltd 8.1 is right, but you need a 68040. carlos. -------------------------------------------------------------- Carlos E. Murillo-Sanchez carlos_murillo@nospammers.ieee.org From optimus at canit.se Thu Nov 29 16:06:02 2001 From: optimus at canit.se (Iggy Drougge) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:23:55 2005 Subject: Macintosh In-Reply-To: <3.0.2.32.20011129140344.018007c0@obregon.multi.net.co> Message-ID: <587.733T100T13863529optimus@canit.se> Carlos Murillo skrev: >>> Could someone tell me what the last version of Macintosh >>> System to run on >>> 68K machines was? Where can I get a copy? >> >>According to LowEndMac it's either 7.6.1 or 8.1 depending on the machine.... >8.1 is right, but you need a 68040. Well, not really. Amiga Mac emulators bypass that requirement, IIRC, and there is a similar program for real Macs. There is some info on LowendMac about that. -- En ligne avec Thor 2.6a. Iggy tipsar: Koppla aldrig en C128-transformator till en A500. ?ven om kontakterna ser likadana ut, ligger sp?nningarna fel. From optimus at canit.se Thu Nov 29 13:46:19 2001 From: optimus at canit.se (Iggy Drougge) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:23:55 2005 Subject: Macintosh In-Reply-To: <7A9BACCEF0171D4FB77019F5104CDD372259C8@jeffserver.tegjeff.com> Message-ID: <414.733T950T12464711optimus@canit.se> Douglas Quebbeman skrev: >> Could someone tell me what the last version of Macintosh System to run on >> 68K machines was? Where can I get a copy? >That would be System 6.0.8 Such utter rubbish. Version 8 was the last major release for 68k machines, though it usually would only install on '040 machines. -- En ligne avec Thor 2.6a. Amiga 4000/040 25MHz/64MB/20GB RetinaBLTZ3/VLab/FastlaneZ3/Ariadne/Toccata From dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com Thu Nov 29 14:58:07 2001 From: dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com (Douglas Quebbeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:23:55 2005 Subject: Macintosh Message-ID: <7A9BACCEF0171D4FB77019F5104CDD372259DD@jeffserver.tegjeff.com> > > > Could someone tell me what the last version of Macintosh System to run on > >> 68K machines was? Where can I get a copy? > > > >That would be System 6.0.8, and you should be abe to > >download it from Apple's FTP site. Try navigating > >through the stuff at http://mirror.apple.com/. > > Actually, up to System 7.5.5 easily runs on 68k Mac's such as > Quadra 605's (which use a 68040). I believe System 8.1 will also run > on some 68k Mac's though 8.5 requires a PPC. For a minimalist > machine, System 7.1 certainly runs well. A camel train has less latency than this list! -dq From jhellige at earthlink.net Thu Nov 29 15:58:16 2001 From: jhellige at earthlink.net (Jeff Hellige) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:23:55 2005 Subject: Macintosh In-Reply-To: <7A9BACCEF0171D4FB77019F5104CDD372259DD@jeffserver.tegjeff.com> References: <7A9BACCEF0171D4FB77019F5104CDD372259DD@jeffserver.tegjeff.com> Message-ID: > > > > Could someone tell me what the last version of Macintosh System to run >on >> >> 68K machines was? Where can I get a copy? >> > >> >That would be System 6.0.8, and you should be abe to >> >download it from Apple's FTP site. Try navigating >> >through the stuff at http://mirror.apple.com/. >> >> Actually, up to System 7.5.5 easily runs on 68k Mac's such as >> Quadra 605's (which use a 68040). I believe System 8.1 will also run >> on some 68k Mac's though 8.5 requires a PPC. For a minimalist >> machine, System 7.1 certainly runs well. > >A camel train has less latency than this list! I think the lag originates with me. For some reason, if I use the server at work to send out STMP mail as originating with my Earthlink account chances are most of the messages will be detained somewhere along the way, whether just a few minutes or at times it's been over a day. The actual hold appears to be done on the listserver end though as the mail seems to exit our server normally. Jeff -- Home of the TRS-80 Model 2000 FAQ File http://www.cchaven.com http://www.geocities.com/siliconvalley/lakes/6757 From mythtech at Mac.com Thu Nov 29 16:45:34 2001 From: mythtech at Mac.com (Chris) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:23:55 2005 Subject: Macintosh Message-ID: > I think the lag originates with me. For some reason, if I >use the server at work to send out STMP mail as originating with my >Earthlink account chances are most of the messages will be detained >somewhere along the way, whether just a few minutes or at times it's >been over a day. The actual hold appears to be done on the >listserver end though as the mail seems to exit our server normally. Interesting... I assumed it was due to the list server machine being used during the day for other tasks (or something else in the chain). Daytimes (normal business hours), seems to have about an hour lag between posting, and recieving (making a simply Q&A session take upwards of two hours to complete). But at night, I notice the lag is much lower (sometimes only a few minutes). Just my unscientific, "feel" for it (can't say I have ever timed it or looked at time stamps on the emails) -chris From jhellige at earthlink.net Thu Nov 29 12:14:56 2001 From: jhellige at earthlink.net (Jeff Hellige) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:23:55 2005 Subject: Concise list of different Mac models In-Reply-To: <01Nov29.130013est.119134@gateway.mediacen.navy.mil> References: <3C0658BD.7090308@aconit.org> <01Nov29.130013est.119134@gateway.mediacen.navy.mil> Message-ID: <01Nov29.142719est.119085@gateway.mediacen.navy.mil> >>If no-one comes up with this I may just make one up from the Apple >>Spec Database - in that case I'd like to know what key spec items >>should be listed. > > That's probably what I would do, as there's even a version to >run under Windows at: > > http://homepage.mac.com/applespec/ > > It has all the information you're looking for, just not on a >single page broken down by model and specs. Oooops...I know, I shouldn't reply to myself but the above link should be: http://www.applespec.com/ The downloadable versions, plus mirrors, are located there. Jeff -- Home of the TRS-80 Model 2000 FAQ File http://www.cchaven.com http://www.geocities.com/siliconvalley/lakes/6757 From hansp at aconit.org Thu Nov 29 15:52:38 2001 From: hansp at aconit.org (Hans B Pufal) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:23:55 2005 Subject: Concise list of different Mac models References: <3C0658BD.7090308@aconit.org> <01Nov29.130013est.119134@gateway.mediacen.navy.mil> <01Nov29.142719est.119085@gateway.mediacen.navy.mil> Message-ID: <3C06AE26.8020501@aconit.org> Jeff Hellige wrote: > Oooops...I know, I shouldn't reply to myself but the above link > should be: > > http://www.applespec.com/ > > The downloadable versions, plus mirrors, are located there. Thnaks that's what I needed. I did not realize that the data-base was downloadable. Nice setup. Anyways, I exported as csv and used excel to make up an 8 page list. Still bigger that I want but I can work on that Thanks again, -- hbp From foo at siconic.com Thu Nov 29 12:45:17 2001 From: foo at siconic.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:23:55 2005 Subject: Concise list of different Mac models In-Reply-To: <3C0658BD.7090308@aconit.org> Message-ID: On Thu, 29 Nov 2001, Hans B Pufal wrote: > Does anyone know of a web page which list all the different Mac models > showing basic specs like processer and speed, memory and disk sizes? Try http://www.everymac.com Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org From dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com Thu Nov 29 16:30:40 2001 From: dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com (Douglas Quebbeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:23:55 2005 Subject: Concise list of different Mac models Message-ID: <7A9BACCEF0171D4FB77019F5104CDD372259E2@jeffserver.tegjeff.com> > Jeff Hellige wrote: > > > Oooops...I know, I shouldn't reply to myself but the above link > > should be: > > > > http://www.applespec.com/ > > > > The downloadable versions, plus mirrors, are located there. > > > Thnaks that's what I needed. I did not realize that the data-base was > downloadable. Nice setup. Anyways, I exported as csv and used excel to > make up an 8 page list. Still bigger that I want but I can work on that I didn't realize it was online! The only version I've seen was distributed on MacAddict disks in the last few years; ISTR it's a FileMaker application... which means it's probably a Fourth Dimension app.. -dq From jhellige at earthlink.net Thu Nov 29 17:26:32 2001 From: jhellige at earthlink.net (Jeff Hellige) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:23:55 2005 Subject: Concise list of different Mac models In-Reply-To: <7A9BACCEF0171D4FB77019F5104CDD372259E2@jeffserver.tegjeff.com> References: <7A9BACCEF0171D4FB77019F5104CDD372259E2@jeffserver.tegjeff.com> Message-ID: > > Thnaks that's what I needed. I did not realize that the data-base was >> downloadable. Nice setup. Anyways, I exported as csv and used excel to >> make up an 8 page list. Still bigger that I want but I can work on that > >I didn't realize it was online! The only version I've seen was >distributed on MacAddict disks in the last few years; ISTR it's >a FileMaker application... which means it's probably a Fourth Dimension >app.. There are multiple versions of it online for both platforms...a standalone runtime and then one that requires you to have FM installed. I would imagine you'd have more control over the output and such if you had the full FM version. Jeff -- Home of the TRS-80 Model 2000 FAQ File http://www.cchaven.com http://www.geocities.com/siliconvalley/lakes/6757 From erd_6502 at yahoo.com Thu Nov 29 12:46:55 2001 From: erd_6502 at yahoo.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:23:55 2005 Subject: 5.25" low-capacity hard disks (was Re: Is it a Lisa or Mac XL?!) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20011129184655.37589.qmail@web20105.mail.yahoo.com> --- Tony Duell wrote: > > > > Jeff, > > > > The ST506 is a standard MFM drive... > > I beliueve that in the Apple Profile, only the ST506 HDA (and maybe the > spindle motor board) is used. The standard control board is not. Instead > there's an Apple board that connectes directly to the index sensor, > cylinder 0 sensor, stepper motor, and heads. It's reasons like this that I buy the old 5.25" mechs I see. I was profoundly disappointed this year when I bought a Tandon TM602S (as found in a Commodore D9060 hard disk) for $5, only to find that all the fine wires that enter and exit the HDA have been snipped. The board is there, but there is no harness to plug into it. I suppose I can test the board on one of the TM602S drives I have that work and put it in the appropriate pile as a spare for the future. I have less confidence I could restore the harness. I suppose that if I have a head-crash someday, I could plunder its wiring, but there'd be the risk that the wiring was removed because _that_ had already happened to the previous owner. I was stoked because the last time I even saw a TM602S for sale, it was $30 and I had to pay $70 to have it rebuilt (bad track 0 sensor and platters in dubious shape) Mind you, this was 9+ years ago, back when people _did_ have HDAs rebuilt and a 20Mb MFM disk cost a lot more than $50. Formatting problems aside, the DEC RD50 is an ST-506 mech. It'd be a tough choice for me to repair a Profile with a DEC drive. I'd have less of a problem pulling an ST-506 drive from an XT to do it. Not as special. -ethan __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! GeoCities - quick and easy web site hosting, just $8.95/month. http://geocities.yahoo.com/ps/info1 From dmc!njc at opal.tseinc.com Thu Nov 29 12:47:50 2001 From: dmc!njc at opal.tseinc.com (dmc!njc@opal.tseinc.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:23:55 2005 Subject: Martha Stewart In-Reply-To: from "Zane H. Healy" at Nov 29, 2001 09:52:06 AM Message-ID: <200111291847.NAA18572@CC47532-A.ewndsr1.nj.home.com> Zane H. Healy > >>Surprised she didn't preach using them as decorative items - a "good thing" > >You mean you don't use some of yours as decorative items or furnature? :^) Actually I'd like to find a nice way to hid various components so that they don't show up at first glance. Of course this is related to my HA background (hobby of course) and the fact that if I had a PDP 8 it would look a little out of place in my living room (I've got the garage and a computer for my 'stuff'). -- Linux Home Automation Neil Cherry ncherry@home.net http://members.home.net/ncherry (Text only) http://linuxha.sourceforge.net/ (SourceForge) http://hcs.sourceforge.net/ (HCS II) From pete at dunnington.u-net.com Thu Nov 29 19:06:04 2001 From: pete at dunnington.u-net.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:23:55 2005 Subject: Martha Stewart In-Reply-To: opal.tseinc.com!dmc!njc "Re: Martha Stewart" (Nov 29, 13:47) References: <200111291847.NAA18572@CC47532-A.ewndsr1.nj.home.com> Message-ID: <10111300106.ZM1476@mindy.dunnington.u-net.com> On Nov 29, 13:47, Neil Cherry wrote: > Actually I'd like to find a nice way to hid various components so that > they don't show up at first glance. Of course this is related to my HA > background (hobby of course) and the fact that if I had a PDP 8 it > would look a little out of place in my living room (I've got the > garage and a computer for my 'stuff'). If you find a way, let me know. When I had fixed my PDP-8 and was running the inchworm program, Liz came to look and said something like "that'll be nice for Christmas, with those lights." So of course I suggested I move it into the lounge, but she didn't seem to think that would be good for my health :-) -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager University of York From bpope at wordstock.com Thu Nov 29 13:01:27 2001 From: bpope at wordstock.com (Bryan Pope) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:23:55 2005 Subject: Martha Stewart In-Reply-To: <020c01c178f9$41896e00$0b01a8c0@ValuedCustomer> from "Michael Nadeau" at Nov 29, 01 12:14:02 pm Message-ID: <200111291901.OAA04907@wordstock.com> O! And I was going to say maybe she is a closet classic computer user.. ;) -Bryan > > A couple of years ago, she dated Charles Simonyi, chief software architect > of Microsoft and former Xerox PARC scientist who wrote the first WYSIWYG > word processor. Maybe that's where she gets it. > > > That's kind of weird, I wouldn't have thought Martha Stewart would even > > consider computers to be in her realm of influence. > > > > I've actually though of painting a computer using Martha Stewartish > > techniques...... like stamping or rag rolling or maybe some of that > > stone fleck stuff. I haven't done it yet, Though. It will still be a > > functioning computer, just a little more creative. > > > > Chad Fernandez > > Michigan, USA > > > > Russ Blakeman wrote: > > > > > > Surprised she didn't preach using them as decorative items - a "good > thing" > > > > > > -> > > > -> Martha Stewart had a short radio column today > > > -> where She actually preached the ethics of classiccmpers. > > > -> That is, what do you do with old computers? Number 1 > > > -> was don't toss it (yes), until you check with your local schools, > > > -> even if you are sure it is obsolete (yes), if you can't place > > > -> it this way, she continues by mentioning that some people > > > -> actually collect them as vintage (yes), and then brings up > > > -> eBay as a sort of last resort (sorry). > > > -> > > > -> Good press that we all need. > > > -> > > > -> John A. > > > -> Project Greenkeys. > > > -> > > > -> > > > > From dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com Thu Nov 29 13:10:10 2001 From: dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com (Douglas Quebbeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:23:55 2005 Subject: Martha Stewart Message-ID: <7A9BACCEF0171D4FB77019F5104CDD372259D3@jeffserver.tegjeff.com> > A couple of years ago, she dated Charles Simonyi, chief software architect > of Microsoft and former Xerox PARC scientist who wrote the first WYSIWYG > word processor. Maybe that's where she gets it. That's the most interesting gossip I've heard all year! Hungarian notation meets Homemaker nation... -dq From mythtech at Mac.com Thu Nov 29 13:27:27 2001 From: mythtech at Mac.com (Chris) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:23:55 2005 Subject: Martha Stewart Message-ID: >Actually I'd like to find a nice way to hid various components so that >they don't show up at first glance. Of course this is related to my HA >background (hobby of course) and the fact that if I had a PDP 8 it >would look a little out of place in my living room (I've got the >garage and a computer for my 'stuff'). I started once turning a PowerMac 7200 into a picture. I got as far as framing the board, and mounting the HD to the back of the frame. The power supply was going to go on the floor, with the cables running down the back of the frame, and into the wall (to pop back out at floor level). I stopped because I was going to have to make some strange angled connectors (kind of elongated 180's) to get things to run where I wanted... and it started to become too much effort... so now I am useing the 7200 in a picture frame, sitting on a desk. -chris From jfoust at threedee.com Thu Nov 29 13:33:57 2001 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:23:55 2005 Subject: Martha Stewart In-Reply-To: <7A9BACCEF0171D4FB77019F5104CDD372259D3@jeffserver.tegjeff. com> Message-ID: <5.0.0.25.0.20011129133259.024203c0@pc> At 02:10 PM 11/29/2001 -0500, Douglas Quebbeman wrote: >Hungarian notation meets Homemaker nation... lpszGoodThing? - John From donm at cts.com Thu Nov 29 14:01:35 2001 From: donm at cts.com (Don Maslin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:23:55 2005 Subject: Martha Stewart In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Thu, 29 Nov 2001, Zane H. Healy wrote: > >Surprised she didn't preach using them as decorative items - a "good thing" > > You mean you don't use some of yours as decorative items or furnature? :^) > > Zane > -- > | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator | > | healyzh@aracnet.com (primary) | OpenVMS Enthusiast | > | | Classic Computer Collector | > +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ > | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | > | PDP-10 Emulation and Zane's Computer Museum. | > | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | I have a friend who used stacked Kaypros as end tables. - don From dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com Thu Nov 29 14:08:56 2001 From: dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com (Douglas Quebbeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:23:55 2005 Subject: Martha Stewart Message-ID: <7A9BACCEF0171D4FB77019F5104CDD372259D9@jeffserver.tegjeff.com> > At 02:10 PM 11/29/2001 -0500, Douglas Quebbeman wrote: > >Hungarian notation meets Homemaker nation... > > lpszGoodThing? ROFL! -q From rhblakeman at kih.net Thu Nov 29 17:36:37 2001 From: rhblakeman at kih.net (Russ Blakeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:23:55 2005 Subject: Martha Stewart In-Reply-To: Message-ID: I was going to mention that but last discussion about PS/2 towers as bed tables and PDP's for living room stuff got nasty so I thought I'd hold that thought :-) -> -----Original Message----- -> From: owner-classiccmp@classiccmp.org -> -> Sent: Thursday, November 29, 2001 11:52 AM -> To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org -> Subject: RE: Martha Stewart -> -> -> >Surprised she didn't preach using them as decorative items - a -> "good thing" -> -> You mean you don't use some of yours as decorative items or -> furnature? :^) -> -> Zane -> -- -> | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator | -> | healyzh@aracnet.com (primary) | OpenVMS Enthusiast | -> | | Classic Computer Collector | -> +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ -> | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | -> | PDP-10 Emulation and Zane's Computer Museum. | -> | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | -> From cmurillo at emtelsa.multi.net.co Thu Nov 29 13:00:54 2001 From: cmurillo at emtelsa.multi.net.co (Carlos Murillo) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:23:55 2005 Subject: Spam from _sring@uslink.net? In-Reply-To: <20011129085923.C3091@borg.org> References: Message-ID: <3.0.2.32.20011129140054.0180075c@obregon.multi.net.co> At 08:59 AM 11/29/01 -0500, you wrote: >After feeling left out, I finally got a copy under the guise of >"YOU_ARE_FAT!.MP3.scr". It was from a different mailing list. Got that one too. -------------------------------------------------------------- Carlos E. Murillo-Sanchez carlos_murillo@nospammers.ieee.org From lgwalker at mts.net Thu Nov 29 13:59:28 2001 From: lgwalker at mts.net (Lawrence Walker) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:23:55 2005 Subject: Spam from _sring@uslink.net? In-Reply-To: References: <000d01c17841$ba3ea6c0$0a00a8c0@cvendel> Message-ID: <3C063F40.4953.51D5CE7@localhost> I changed ISPs in July and haven't received any spam since moving other than a couple that were sent to the list. I used to get spam all the time before that. I have not posted to any newsgroups since the change. I almost miss it. :^) lawrence > On Wed, 28 Nov 2001, Curt Vendel wrote: > > > Looks like a lot of places have broached the Classiccmp as I've > > been getting spammed up the ying-yang and my mail blocking policies > > are on the brink of a nervous brake down as of late, I know a lot of > > other people from the mailling that I speak with one to one have > > mentioned the same thing that they suddenly been inundated with spam. > > Curious, as I use this account exclusively to receive CC messages, and > mostly post to the list from it. I have never received a spam message > addressed directly to . I bet the spam that others are > receiving is a result of their posting their address somewhere else. > > Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ > International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org > Reply to: lgwalker@mts.net From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Thu Nov 29 14:39:10 2001 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (Allison) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:23:55 2005 Subject: Spam from _sring@uslink.net? Message-ID: <002301c17915$eb017560$6b7b7b7b@ajp> From: Bill Dawson >I'm using Outlook 2000 with the latest Microslop patches/security updates >and the latest version of ZoneAlarm, 2.6.357, so I avoided infection. I avoid it by running NT4/sp4 with IE4.02, an older version. Then I disable activex, comx and VBS.scripting as those things are needed by virii to propagate. The end result was that virus at home did little more than generate an unknown image type, afterwhich I deleted in and waved bye to it. Allison From dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com Thu Nov 29 13:06:33 2001 From: dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com (Douglas Quebbeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:23:55 2005 Subject: Adobe Loss in California District Court, Good News for ClassicCmp rs Message-ID: <7A9BACCEF0171D4FB77019F5104CDD372259D2@jeffserver.tegjeff.com> I'm not sure how many of you have seen this yet, but Adobe has lost a suit regarding the transferrability of software licenses. The court has rules that even if the wording of a license specifically prohibits the resale of the software by the original buyer to a new owner, the original owner is within their rights in doing so. Of course, without a doubt, Adobe will likely appeal this at least as far as the California Supreme Court. We can only hope they'll lose there as well. Should this ultimately hold true, much old classic software for our classic computers will be available from old licensees who no longer need the licenses. Some license holders may still not feel comfortable with this, fearing some potential liability. But it still sounds good for us collectors. For those of you who own firms who license software to clients, I hope you can look beyond the tiny loss of revenue this might possibily represent. -dq From foo at siconic.com Thu Nov 29 15:14:50 2001 From: foo at siconic.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:23:55 2005 Subject: Adobe Loss in California District Court, Good News for ClassicCmp rs In-Reply-To: <7A9BACCEF0171D4FB77019F5104CDD372259D2@jeffserver.tegjeff.com> Message-ID: On Thu, 29 Nov 2001, Douglas Quebbeman wrote: > I'm not sure how many of you have seen this yet, but Adobe has lost a > suit regarding the transferrability of software licenses. The court > has rules that even if the wording of a license specifically prohibits > the resale of the software by the original buyer to a new owner, the > original owner is within their rights in doing so. > > Of course, without a doubt, Adobe will likely appeal this at least as > far as the California Supreme Court. We can only hope they'll lose > there as well. We can only hope that common sense will continue to prevail. Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org From geoffrob at stmarks.pp.catholic.edu.au Thu Nov 29 16:59:30 2001 From: geoffrob at stmarks.pp.catholic.edu.au (Geoff Roberts) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:23:55 2005 Subject: Adobe Loss in California District Court, Good News for ClassicCmp rs References: Message-ID: <003701c17929$818ac5a0$de2c67cb@helpdesk> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Sellam Ismail" To: Sent: Friday, November 30, 2001 7:44 AM Subject: Re: Adobe Loss in California District Court, Good News for ClassicCmp rs > On Thu, 29 Nov 2001, Douglas Quebbeman wrote: > > > I'm not sure how many of you have seen this yet, but Adobe has lost a > > suit regarding the transferrability of software licenses. The court > > has rules that even if the wording of a license specifically prohibits > > the resale of the software by the original buyer to a new owner, the > > original owner is within their rights in doing so. > > > > Of course, without a doubt, Adobe will likely appeal this at least as > > far as the California Supreme Court. We can only hope they'll lose > > there as well. > > We can only hope that common sense will continue to prevail. This is promising. That would mean all my VAX/VMS Layered product licenses that came on various vaxen I own(and which suffer from this issue - DEC maintained that only the O/S was transferrable) would be lawfully mine to use now. Geoff Roberts Computer Systems Manager Saint Mark's College Port Pirie, South Australia geoffrob@stmarks.pp.catholic.edu.au ICQ 1970476 From lgwalker at mts.net Thu Nov 29 13:26:10 2001 From: lgwalker at mts.net (Lawrence Walker) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:23:55 2005 Subject: S. Ring has badtrans virus In-Reply-To: <01Nov28.103740est.119201@gateway.mediacen.navy.mil> References: Message-ID: <3C063772.8583.4FEDE57@localhost> I got it as well this a.m. It used the "re: re: a2gs on harddisk30 thread. I use Pegasus and don't open attachments or fomatted msgs which occasionally also turn up on the list. Curious, I attempted to "View" the audio docs/doc.pif file and stupidly pressed "Open" instead. It ran and I got several out of memory windows and an illegal operation/close program one. My Norton came up blank since, of course, it's a new virus. Checked my classiccmp folder and saw Allisons heads-up which gave the identity. The Sophus site descibed it and how to remove it. Searched my HD and sure enough kernel32.exe and kdll.dll were there. They have to be removed by dos since they're locked in Windoze. It also usually puts an entry in the registry according to Sophus, but wasn't in mine since I hadn't opened it by the usual route or something. What a pain in the butt. Sophus says it's the top worm at present. lawrence > > It was sent to me 'personally', ie not as a classiccmp post. Since it > >was an unsolicited attachment from an unacknowledged source, it filed it > >in /dev/nul. > > I got it as well but followed the same logic you did. I also > received the virus once over the weekend as well, but it wasn't from > a list subscriber. I don't use Outlook on my Mac's and don't have > autopreview turned on when I'm using it under NT. > > Jeff > -- > Home of the TRS-80 Model 2000 FAQ File > http://www.cchaven.com > http://www.geocities.com/siliconvalley/lakes/6757 Reply to: lgwalker@mts.net From CLeyson at aol.com Thu Nov 29 14:45:30 2001 From: CLeyson at aol.com (CLeyson@aol.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:23:55 2005 Subject: S. Ring has badtrans virus Message-ID: <138.57191e2.2937f86a@aol.com> Just found kernel32.exe and kdll.dll and zapped them. Thanks Lawrence. I made the mistake of opening the infected attachment. Sunday 25th. Spent hours looking for inetd.exe, kern32.exe and hksdll.dll (Badtrans.a) According to McAffe:- "This mass mailing worm attempts to send itself using Microsoft Outlook by replying to unread and read email messages. It also mails itself to email addresses found within files that exist on your system. It drops a keylogging trojan (detected as PWS-Hooker with the 4173 DATs, or greater) into the SYSTEM directory as KDLL.DLL. This trojan logs keystrokes for the purpose of stealing personal information (such as credit card and bank account numbers and passwords). This information is later emailed to the virus author(s)." I never could get Outlook to install - how do I know what my POP3 address is !! Thankyou Microsoft. Chris -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20011129/e831ec8f/attachment.html From healyzh at aracnet.com Thu Nov 29 13:26:26 2001 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:23:55 2005 Subject: PDP-8/E PowerSupply Part 2 Message-ID: OK, I got brave and flipped the switch and started testing voltages with everything disconnected. I've got a H724 PS and everything looks good except the +8Vdc line which is for powering the light bulbs on the front panel, and the 14Vac. The +8Vdc should be between 6-10Vdc according to Volume 1 of the maintenance manual, and it's currently at 11.14Vdc. The 14Vac looks like it might be even more messed up, as I'm getting 8.95Vac on one line and 19.26Vac on the other, but it doesn't look to be used. Now for everything except the +8Vdc and 14Vac everything looks to be adjustable. So, is there anything I can tweak on this, or should I just not worry about it? I really don't want to be blowing lightbulbs if I can help it. Zane -- | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator | | healyzh@aracnet.com (primary) | OpenVMS Enthusiast | | | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | PDP-10 Emulation and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Nov 29 13:58:48 2001 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:23:55 2005 Subject: PDP-8/E PowerSupply Part 2 In-Reply-To: from "Zane H. Healy" at Nov 29, 1 11:26:26 am Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1655 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20011129/b88d8749/attachment.ksh From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Thu Nov 29 14:44:18 2001 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (Allison) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:23:55 2005 Subject: PDP-8/E PowerSupply Part 2 Message-ID: <004801c17916$9ecd9880$6b7b7b7b@ajp> If memeory serves that depended on the lamps to load the PS down to rated voltages. If you have leds the load willbe lighter and since they have current limiting resistors the small extra votage is not an issue. Allison -----Original Message----- From: Zane H. Healy To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org Date: Thursday, November 29, 2001 2:57 PM Subject: PDP-8/E PowerSupply Part 2 >OK, I got brave and flipped the switch and started testing voltages with >everything disconnected. > >I've got a H724 PS and everything looks good except the +8Vdc line which is >for powering the light bulbs on the front panel, and the 14Vac. The +8Vdc >should be between 6-10Vdc according to Volume 1 of the maintenance manual, >and it's currently at 11.14Vdc. The 14Vac looks like it might be even more >messed up, as I'm getting 8.95Vac on one line and 19.26Vac on the other, >but it doesn't look to be used. > >Now for everything except the +8Vdc and 14Vac everything looks to be >adjustable. So, is there anything I can tweak on this, or should I just >not worry about it? I really don't want to be blowing lightbulbs if I can >help it. > > Zane >-- >| Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator | >| healyzh@aracnet.com (primary) | OpenVMS Enthusiast | >| | Classic Computer Collector | >+----------------------------------+----------------------------+ >| Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | >| PDP-10 Emulation and Zane's Computer Museum. | >| http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | > From healyzh at aracnet.com Thu Nov 29 15:33:54 2001 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:23:55 2005 Subject: PDP-8/E PowerSupply Part 2 In-Reply-To: from "Allison" at Nov 29, 2001 03:44:18 PM Message-ID: <200111292133.fATLXs919489@shell1.aracnet.com> Interesting, I've got the lamps (I'd been hoping for LEDs), but I didn't connect the wires for testing. Looks like the next step when I get home will be to figure out which wire plugs into which connector on the front panel. Unfortunatly the person that took the system apart and shipped it didn't make notes. OTOH, he did a magnificent job of packing and the system came with full doc's. Zane > > If memeory serves that depended on the lamps to load the PS > down to rated voltages. If you have leds the load willbe lighter and since > they have current limiting resistors the small extra votage is not an issue. > > Allison > -----Original Message----- > From: Zane H. Healy > To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org > Date: Thursday, November 29, 2001 2:57 PM > Subject: PDP-8/E PowerSupply Part 2 > > > >OK, I got brave and flipped the switch and started testing voltages with > >everything disconnected. > > > >I've got a H724 PS and everything looks good except the +8Vdc line which is > >for powering the light bulbs on the front panel, and the 14Vac. The +8Vdc > >should be between 6-10Vdc according to Volume 1 of the maintenance manual, > >and it's currently at 11.14Vdc. The 14Vac looks like it might be even more > >messed up, as I'm getting 8.95Vac on one line and 19.26Vac on the other, > >but it doesn't look to be used. > > > >Now for everything except the +8Vdc and 14Vac everything looks to be > >adjustable. So, is there anything I can tweak on this, or should I just > >not worry about it? I really don't want to be blowing lightbulbs if I can > >help it. > > > > Zane > >-- > >| Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator | > >| healyzh@aracnet.com (primary) | OpenVMS Enthusiast | > >| | Classic Computer Collector | > >+----------------------------------+----------------------------+ > >| Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | > >| PDP-10 Emulation and Zane's Computer Museum. | > >| http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | > > > From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Nov 29 13:34:33 2001 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:23:55 2005 Subject: Ampro Littleboard problems.. In-Reply-To: from "Don Maslin" at Nov 28, 1 09:19:56 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 419 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20011129/b6666ff2/attachment.ksh From donm at cts.com Thu Nov 29 13:50:53 2001 From: donm at cts.com (Don Maslin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:23:55 2005 Subject: Ampro Littleboard problems.. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Thu, 29 Nov 2001, Gene Buckle wrote: > > On Wed, 28 Nov 2001, Gene Buckle wrote: > > > > > I've got a Littleboard I'm tring to bring up. When I feed it a disk, > > > and power it up, it will select the drive, spin it and shut down after > > > about 3 to 5 seconds. I never hear a head step. Nothing shows up on the > > > serial port (port a, 9600). The drive I'm using is a Teac FD-54B-02-U > > > and the two jumpers are set to DS0 and IU. > > > > I presume that is a typo and it really is an FD-55B. Is it terminated? > > I assume a straight cable since it is selected. The FD-55s that I use > > are jumpered DS0 (for straight cable), HS, IU, and SM on the two main > > jumper headers. PM is also jumpered on its own header. > > > > Don, the number on the back of the drive really is FD-54B. As far as > termination, I don't know. There is no place for what I would call a > "traditional" floppy termination pack. There is a SIP resistor soldered > into the board right ahead of the data connector. I don't have the drive > in front of me now, but I don't recall seeing "SM" as being a jumper > position. I do recall the "HS" labelling however. > > I don't recall anything marked "PM" at all. > > Thanks! > > g. Boy, that is one that I have never run across nor seen listed! Don't know what to tell you Gene! - don From geoffr at zipcon.net Thu Nov 29 14:57:54 2001 From: geoffr at zipcon.net (geoffr@zipcon.net) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:23:55 2005 Subject: Ampro Littleboard problems.. References: Message-ID: <3c06a152dcc480.45418957@zipcon.net> http://njcc.com/~hjohnson/s_drives.html Has the manual for sale, 30 pages @ 25C a page.... > On Wed, 28 Nov 2001, Gene Buckle wrote: > > I've got a Littleboard I'm tring to bring up. When I feed it a disk, > and power it up, it will select the drive, spin it and shut down after > about 3 to 5 seconds. I never hear a head step. Nothing shows up on the > serial port (port a, 9600). The drive I'm using is a Teac FD-54B-02-U > and the two jumpers are set to DS0 and IU. From edick at idcomm.com Thu Nov 29 15:38:48 2001 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:23:56 2005 Subject: Ampro Littleboard problems.. References: <3c06a152dcc480.45418957@zipcon.net> Message-ID: <008801c1791e$3b4d8380$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> I've got several copies. No need to pay 60 cents per sheet. If copies are needed, I'll get them made for you at whatever the local minimum is, probably about 5 cents/page, though I haven't used Kinko's in a few years. Dick ----- Original Message ----- From: To: Sent: Thursday, November 29, 2001 1:57 PM Subject: Re: Re: Ampro Littleboard problems.. > > http://njcc.com/~hjohnson/s_drives.html > > Has the manual for sale, 30 pages @ 25C a page.... > > > On Wed, 28 Nov 2001, Gene Buckle wrote: > > > > I've got a Littleboard I'm tring to bring up. When I feed it a disk, > > and power it up, it will select the drive, spin it and shut down after > > about 3 to 5 seconds. I never hear a head step. Nothing shows up on the > > serial port (port a, 9600). The drive I'm using is a Teac FD-54B-02-U > > and the two jumpers are set to DS0 and IU. > > > From geneb at deltasoft.com Thu Nov 29 17:56:38 2001 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (Gene Buckle) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:23:56 2005 Subject: Ampro Littleboard problems.. In-Reply-To: <008801c1791e$3b4d8380$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> Message-ID: On Thu, 29 Nov 2001, Richard Erlacher wrote: > I've got several copies. No need to pay 60 cents per sheet. If copies are > needed, I'll get them made for you at whatever the local minimum is, probably > about 5 cents/page, though I haven't used Kinko's in a few years. > Thanks for the offer Dick. Right now I'm just going to do some serious cleaning & reseating and see if that clears up the problem. g. From geneb at deltasoft.com Thu Nov 29 15:35:52 2001 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (Gene Buckle) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:23:56 2005 Subject: Ampro Littleboard problems.. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: > > termination, I don't know. There is no place for what I would call a > > "traditional" floppy termination pack. There is a SIP resistor soldered > > into the board right ahead of the data connector. I don't have the drive > > in front of me now, but I don't recall seeing "SM" as being a jumper > > position. I do recall the "HS" labelling however. > > > > I don't recall anything marked "PM" at all. > > > > Thanks! > > > > g. > > Boy, that is one that I have never run across nor seen listed! Don't > know what to tell you Gene! > - don > I'm going to strip the machine down tonight (It's in a Bookshelf 100 enclosure) and do some serious contact cleaning and chip re-seating to see if I can't get it to behave. g. From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Thu Nov 29 14:34:30 2001 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (Allison) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:23:56 2005 Subject: Ampro Littleboard problems.. Message-ID: <000801c17915$40694740$6b7b7b7b@ajp> Depending on the Eprom installed a prompt is not always to be expected. Mine has 3.mumble and does not prompt. However it does boot most anything bootable it can find including SCSI hard disk. Allison -----Original Message----- From: Richard Erlacher To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org Date: Thursday, November 29, 2001 11:13 AM Subject: Re: Ampro Littleboard problems.. >Though there are many "Little Board" products from Ampro, the ones I have, which >are the originals from back in '83 or so, will produce a prompt if you (1) have >no floppy attached, or (2) don't have a diskette in it. If it's not producing >that prompt, I'd say you need to look elsewhere than the floppy drive. > >Aside from single-sided drives, I've never encountered a 48TPI drive that this >machine wouldn't boot once it's jumpered for DS0. > >Nevertheless, if it's not producing the prompt, something's seriously wrong. >There aren't many parts that could be broken, but perhaps you should look into >which one it might be. My experience has been that if it doesn't produce that >prompt, it won't boot under any circumstances. > >Dick > >----- Original Message ----- >From: "Gene Buckle" >To: >Sent: Thursday, November 29, 2001 8:58 AM >Subject: Re: Ampro Littleboard problems.. > > >> > On Wed, 28 Nov 2001, Gene Buckle wrote: >> > >> > > I've got a Littleboard I'm tring to bring up. When I feed it a disk, >> > > and power it up, it will select the drive, spin it and shut down after >> > > about 3 to 5 seconds. I never hear a head step. Nothing shows up on the >> > > serial port (port a, 9600). The drive I'm using is a Teac FD-54B-02-U >> > > and the two jumpers are set to DS0 and IU. >> > >> > I presume that is a typo and it really is an FD-55B. Is it terminated? >> > I assume a straight cable since it is selected. The FD-55s that I use >> > are jumpered DS0 (for straight cable), HS, IU, and SM on the two main >> > jumper headers. PM is also jumpered on its own header. >> > >> >> Don, the number on the back of the drive really is FD-54B. As far as >> termination, I don't know. There is no place for what I would call a >> "traditional" floppy termination pack. There is a SIP resistor soldered >> into the board right ahead of the data connector. I don't have the drive >> in front of me now, but I don't recall seeing "SM" as being a jumper >> position. I do recall the "HS" labelling however. >> >> I don't recall anything marked "PM" at all. >> >> Thanks! >> >> g. >> >> >> > From edick at idcomm.com Thu Nov 29 15:36:44 2001 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:23:56 2005 Subject: Ampro Littleboard problems.. References: <000801c17915$40694740$6b7b7b7b@ajp> Message-ID: <007401c1791d$f0db4940$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> Well, I made the assumption that since my rev 0.00 (not really, but I ordered the boards before any had been made) EPROM gives a prompt, they all did. Perhaps that isn't the case. If it's SCSI capable, it's a year or more newer than my EPROM. They didn't have a hard disk back when I bought these. It has to find that there's no disk drive, however, else it simply tries to boot from that. After a timeout of maybe a minute, it defaults to the prompt screen, which is a menu. Dick ----- Original Message ----- From: "Allison" To: Sent: Thursday, November 29, 2001 1:34 PM Subject: Re: Ampro Littleboard problems.. > Depending on the Eprom installed a prompt is not always to > be expected. Mine has 3.mumble and does not prompt. > > However it does boot most anything bootable it can find including > SCSI hard disk. > > Allison > > -----Original Message----- > From: Richard Erlacher > To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org > Date: Thursday, November 29, 2001 11:13 AM > Subject: Re: Ampro Littleboard problems.. > > > >Though there are many "Little Board" products from Ampro, the ones I have, > which > >are the originals from back in '83 or so, will produce a prompt if you (1) > have > >no floppy attached, or (2) don't have a diskette in it. If it's not > producing > >that prompt, I'd say you need to look elsewhere than the floppy drive. > > > >Aside from single-sided drives, I've never encountered a 48TPI drive that > this > >machine wouldn't boot once it's jumpered for DS0. > > > >Nevertheless, if it's not producing the prompt, something's seriously > wrong. > >There aren't many parts that could be broken, but perhaps you should look > into > >which one it might be. My experience has been that if it doesn't produce > that > >prompt, it won't boot under any circumstances. > > > >Dick > > > >----- Original Message ----- > >From: "Gene Buckle" > >To: > >Sent: Thursday, November 29, 2001 8:58 AM > >Subject: Re: Ampro Littleboard problems.. > > > > > >> > On Wed, 28 Nov 2001, Gene Buckle wrote: > >> > > >> > > I've got a Littleboard I'm tring to bring up. When I feed it a disk, > >> > > and power it up, it will select the drive, spin it and shut down > after > >> > > about 3 to 5 seconds. I never hear a head step. Nothing shows up on > the > >> > > serial port (port a, 9600). The drive I'm using is a Teac > FD-54B-02-U > >> > > and the two jumpers are set to DS0 and IU. > >> > > >> > I presume that is a typo and it really is an FD-55B. Is it terminated? > >> > I assume a straight cable since it is selected. The FD-55s that I use > >> > are jumpered DS0 (for straight cable), HS, IU, and SM on the two main > >> > jumper headers. PM is also jumpered on its own header. > >> > > >> > >> Don, the number on the back of the drive really is FD-54B. As far as > >> termination, I don't know. There is no place for what I would call a > >> "traditional" floppy termination pack. There is a SIP resistor soldered > >> into the board right ahead of the data connector. I don't have the drive > >> in front of me now, but I don't recall seeing "SM" as being a jumper > >> position. I do recall the "HS" labelling however. > >> > >> I don't recall anything marked "PM" at all. > >> > >> Thanks! > >> > >> g. > >> > >> > >> > > > > From dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com Thu Nov 29 14:43:08 2001 From: dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com (Douglas Quebbeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:23:56 2005 Subject: Ampro Littleboard problems.. Message-ID: <7A9BACCEF0171D4FB77019F5104CDD372259DB@jeffserver.tegjeff.com> > > I presume that is a typo and it really is an FD-55B. Is it terminated? > > I wouldn't bet on it. There is an FD-54B. That Sanyo MBC555 MS-DOS > machine has a couple of them in it (or at least mine does). I have no > idea what the difference between the FD-54B and the FD-55B is, though. Have a likely-dead one of those drives laying around, should anyone be interested... -dq From CLeyson at aol.com Thu Nov 29 13:41:13 2001 From: CLeyson at aol.com (CLeyson@aol.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:23:56 2005 Subject: Question for HP 9826 owners Message-ID: Joe >>I have the binaries for HP-9826 HPL. Copied them onto floppy disks, > What did you copy them from? When you say that you have the binaries, > what exactly do you mean? The only binaries that I've seen for the 9826 are > the .BIN files that are used with BASIC. They're language extentions and > device divers files that can be included in the main OS file or loaded > separately. But HPL is a complete stand alone OS and it doesn't use .BIN > files I have the HPL system file and drivers and also copies of Basic 4 system and associated .BIN, .PROG files etc. The files were very kindly emailed to me by Brian Skilton in the UK who got them as disk copies from Bruce Rodgers. Thanks to both Brian and Bruce. Brian used lif2dos or lifutil to make DOS copies and made a note of the file descriptor bytes (11th and 12th byte in the directory entry). I copied the files onto LIF formatted disks and edited the file descriptor byte. Success ! Basic 4 boots and loads. Tried the same with HPL and got the FFFFFFC4 error message. > Why did you edit them? Lifutil is erratic. The problem is that HP used > lots of different formats for LIF files and the file descriptor byte is > loaded in different places in different LIF files and Lifutil can't find > many of them so it doesn't accurately interpet the file structure therefore > it frequently "scrambles" files. That makes a lot of sense and could explain the problem. Brian has also sent me the directory listing for the two HPL disks using lifutil to catalogue them. Note: file descriptor bytes appear under date field. Disk 1 Volume Label: H9826 File Name Pro Type Rec/file byte/rec Address Date Time SYSTEM_HPL SYSTM 433 256 16 E9 42 Disk 2 Volume Label: V4 File Name Pro Type Rec/file byte/rec Address Date Time revid -6128 1 256 12 E8 10 cbackup -6124 16 256 13 E8 14 ibackup -6124 21 256 29 E8 14 9825key -6128 11 256 50 E8 10 9876chars -6128 2 256 61 E8 10 I had noticed that the first used sector on disk 2 is 12 and not 16 but I wouldn't have thought that would make much difference. Besides, I havn't got to disk 2 yet. I guess there must be a few more bytes that need editing. I will see if Brian can send me a hex dump of the directory sector and go through it byte by byte. Chris -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20011129/4e90f7d9/attachment.html From philpem at bigfoot.com Thu Nov 29 13:52:29 2001 From: philpem at bigfoot.com (Philip Pemberton) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:23:56 2005 Subject: Badtrans Message-ID: <001b01c1790f$616a20a0$504d7ad5@phoenix> Hi All, I've noticed that a few of you have been chatting about Badtrans - according to Symantec, if you drop the underscore from the "From:" address, you should end up with the user's actual e-mail address - if the virus chose to use the actual address... I've picked apart the message source and what it does is quite sneaky - it uses an IFRAME to load the virus and also uses MIME-headers-within-MIME-headers... A few of the regulars on alt.comp.virus might want to elaborate... It's a crafty little bugger - it even installs a keystroke logging trojan... Anyone remember the so-called "Sexyfun" or "Spirale" virus (it's real name was Hybris) - it came in an e-mail from hahaha @ sexyfun.net and could update itself over the web with new "plugins"... One of which displays a _huge_ hypnotic spiral on-screen... Sophos put a screenshot of it on their website (www.sophos.com). Later. -- Phil. philpem@bigfoot.com http://www.philpem.f9.co.uk/ From sipke at wxs.nl Thu Nov 29 13:53:19 2001 From: sipke at wxs.nl (Sipke de Wal) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:23:56 2005 Subject: Slowdown util for 486/586 systems to emulate XT/AT systems Message-ID: <007c01c1790f$7f0fd960$030101ac@boll.casema.net> Somebody on one of the lists/groups i visiit recently asked a utility to slowdown Pentium I systems or 486-machines in order to run old dos-legacy software that was programmed for slower XT/AT class systems. I found the util again and I've put it up on my website... http://xgistor.ath.cx Go to the file section and select the folder "slowdown" there you will find the slow586.zip file ........... since it may interest virtual computer-collectors (emulation) I've decided to post it to this list as well. regards Sipke de Wal From CLeyson at aol.com Thu Nov 29 14:50:59 2001 From: CLeyson at aol.com (CLeyson@aol.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:23:56 2005 Subject: Slowdown util for 486/586 systems to emulate XT/AT systems Message-ID: <40.15256962.2937f9b3@aol.com> Thanks spike - I already have a slowdown util - Windoze :-) Just won myself an HP85A on ebay - happy again. Chris -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20011129/f60fa5db/attachment.html From CLeyson at aol.com Thu Nov 29 13:57:45 2001 From: CLeyson at aol.com (CLeyson@aol.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:23:56 2005 Subject: HP Calulator Patents Message-ID: Here is a partial list of patents relating to HP calculators. In the first column I've entered the number of pages. The short ones aren't too interesting. The following relate to specific machines although I'm not too sure about the 9805. US4437156 (334 pages) HP9825 Processor description (No firmware) US4180854 (575 pages) HP9845 Description (No firmware) US4158285 (149 pages) wristwatch calculator US4089059 (375 pages) HP9815 Processor description and firmware listing US4075679 (599 pages) HP9825 Processor description and firmware listing US4012725 (589 pages) HP9830 Processor description and firmware listing US3971925 (162 pages) HP9805 Processor description and firmware listing US3839630 (389 pages) Unknown Also US4172281 Microprogrammable Control Processor for a Minicomputor or the like (125 pages) gives a description and schematic for a 16 bit TTL machine. Uses 74S181s in the ALU and reference is made to the HP21XX in the opcode listing. Unfortunately the quality of the copy is poor and there is no microcode. Downloaded from http://gb.espacenet.com. Chris Pages Patent No Issued Title 011 US05530234 06/25/1996 Hand held calculator having a retractable cover 021 US04885714 12/05/1989 Calculator having a user-accessible object stack for the uniform application of mathematical functions and logical operations to a multiplicity of object types 030 US04821228 04/11/1989 Method and apparatus for computation stack recovery in a calculator 010 US04566072 01/21/1986 Programmable calculator including means for digitizing the position of an X-Y plotter pen 011 US04546448 10/08/1985 Programmable calculator including program variable initialization means and definition means array 031 US04480305 10/30/1984 Programmable calculator including editing capability 019 US04456964 06/26/1984 Calculator including means for displaying alphanumeric prompting messages to the operator 010 US04455618 06/19/1984 Programmable calculator 026 US04455607 06/19/1984 Programmable calculator having keys for performing angular measurement unit conversion 334 US04437156 03/13/1984 Programmable calculator 031 US04412300 10/25/1983 Programmable calculator including alphabetic output capability 026 US04384328 05/17/1983 Programmable calculator including magnetic reading and recording means 030 US04381554 04/26/1983 Calculator for storing source data and evaluating numerical answers to problems 007 US04330839 05/18/1982 Programmable calculator including means for automatically processing imformation stored on a magnetic record member 012 US04322816 03/30/1982 Programmable calculator having structure for controlling an x-y plotter 031 US04309761 01/05/1982 Calculator for evaluating numerical answers to problems 029 US04291385 09/22/1981 Calculator having merged key codes 018 US04281390 07/28/1981 Programmable calculator including means for performing computed and uncomputed relative branching during program execution 003 USD0256133 07/29/1980 Casing for an electronic calculator 031 US04203152 05/13/1980 Programmable calculator including key-log printing means 030 US04198684 04/15/1980 Electronic calculator with keyboard-controlled unary function capability 010 US04197586 04/08/1980 Electronic calculator assembly 019 US04187547 02/05/1980 Programmable calculator including means for controllably introducing blank lines on a printed record during program execution 007 US04181966 01/01/1980 Adaptable programmed calculator including a percent keyboard operator 019 US04181965 01/01/1980 Programmable calculator including program trace means ??? US04180854 12/25/1979 Programmable calculator having string variable editing capability 018 US04178633 12/11/1979 Programmable calculator including multifunction keys 012 US04177520 12/04/1979 Calculator apparatus having a single-step key for displaying and executing program steps and displaying the result 019 US04177518 12/04/1979 Programmable calculator including scrolling alphanumeric display means 018 US04164039 08/07/1979 Programmable calculator including a key for performing either a subtraction or a unary minus function 019 US04164019 08/07/1979 Programmable calculator including alphanumeric display means 019 US04162532 07/24/1979 Programmable calculator including data format display control means 019 US04161031 07/10/1979 Programmable calculator including boolean flag variable means 019 US04159525 06/26/1979 Programmable calculator employing computed memory addresses 149 US04158285 06/19/1979 Interactive wristwatch calculator 018 US04158233 06/12/1979 Programmable calculator including means for performing implied multiply operations 019 US04158231 06/12/1979 Programmable calculator including program listing means 019 US04158228 06/12/1979 Programmable calculator including alphanumeric error display means 006 US04156921 05/29/1979 Adaptable programmed calculator including automatic decimal point positioning 018 US04156918 05/29/1979 Programmable calculator including means for performing computed jumps during program execution 020 US04156917 05/29/1979 Programmable calculator including separate user program and data memory areas 018 US04156285 05/22/1979 Programmable calculator including keyboard functions whose argument may be a numeric constant, a storage register, or an arithmetic expression 018 US04156282 05/22/1979 Programmable calculator including relational operator means 020 US04152774 05/01/1979 Programmable calculator including keyboard function means for raising the number ten to any designated power 018 US04152773 05/01/1979 Programmable calculator including means for establishing a priority for executing algebraic operations 019 US04152771 05/01/1979 Programmable calculator including display means for signalling the user to indicate the exhaustion of a printer paper supply 020 US04152770 05/01/1979 Programmable calculator including means for programmably controlling magnetic storage units 019 US04152769 05/01/1979 Programmable calculator including means for permitting data entry during program execution 022 US04145752 03/20/1979 Programmable calculator including separate line numbering means for user-definable functions 025 US04145742 03/20/1979 Programmable calculator including user-definable keys 012 US04127897 11/28/1978 Programmable calculator having extended input/output capability 012 US04126898 11/21/1978 Programmable calculator including terminal control means 002 USD0249243 09/05/1978 Wristwatch calculator 002 USD0249090 08/22/1978 Casing for an electronic calculator 011 US04109315 08/22/1978 Wristwatch calculator with selectively scanned keyboard 028 US04099246 07/04/1978 Calculator having merged key codes 015 US04091270 05/23/1978 Electronic calculator with optical input means 375 US04089059 05/09/1978 Programmable calculator employing a read-write memory having a movable boundary between program and data storage sections thereof 014 US04078257 03/07/1978 Calculator apparatus with electronically alterable key symbols 599 US04075679 02/21/1978 Programmable calculator 021 US04063221 12/13/1977 Programmable calculator 005 US04059750 11/22/1977 General purpose calculator having selective data storage, data conversion and time-keeping capabilities 009 US04055757 10/25/1977 Calculator apparatus with annuity switch for performing begin-and end-period annuity calculations 002 USD0245810 09/13/1977 Casing for an electronic calculator 005 US04047012 09/06/1977 General purpose calculator having factorial capability 002 USD0245107 07/19/1977 Electronic calculator 007 US04037092 07/19/1977 Calculator having preprogrammed user-definable functions 009 US04035627 07/12/1977 Scientific calculator 002 USD0244862 06/28/1977 Casing for an electronic calculator 013 US04028538 06/07/1977 Programmable calculator employing algebraic language 589 US04012725 03/15/1977 Programmable calculator 055 US04009379 02/22/1977 Portable programmable calculator displaying absolute line number addresses and key codes and automatically altering display formats 092 US04001569 01/04/1977 General purpose calculator having selective data storage, data conversion and time-keeping capabilities 032 US03996562 12/07/1976 Programmable electronic calculator for evaluating mathematical problems 009 US03987290 10/19/1976 Calculator apparatus for displaying data in engineering notation 162 US03971925 07/27/1976 Adaptable programmed calculator having provision for plug-in keyboard and memory modules 004 US03955074 05/04/1976 General purpose calculator having keys with more than one function assigned thereto 005 US03946218 03/23/1976 General purpose calculator with capability for performing yield-to-maturity of a bond calculation 007 US03893173 07/01/1975 Miniaturized magnetic card reader/recorder for use in hand-held calculator 073 US03863060 01/28/1975 GENERAL PURPOSE CALCULATOR WITH CAPABILITY FOR PERFORMING INTERDISCIPLINARY BUSINESS CALCULATIONS 007 US03855461 12/17/1974 CALCULATOR WITH KEY CODE ASSOCIATION AND DISPLAY FEATURES 389 US03839630 10/01/1974 PROGRAMMABLE CALCULATOR EMPLOYING ALGEBRAIC LANGUAGE 058 US03825736 07/23/1974 CALCULATOR WITH PROVISION FOR EFFICIENTLY MANIPULATING FACTORS AND TERMS ??? US03781820 12/25/1973 PORTABLE ELECTRONIC CALCULATOR ??? US03769621 10/30/1973 CALCULATOR WITH PROVISION FOR AUTOMATICALLY INTERPOSING MEMORY ACCESS CYCLES BETWEEN OTHERWISE REGULARLY ??? US03711690 01/16/1973 CALCULATOR AND TESTER FOR USE THEREWITH ??? US03678466 07/18/1972 ELECTRONIC CALCULATOR ??? US03675213 07/04/1972 STORED DATA RECALL MEANS FOR AN ELECTRONIC CALCULATOR ??? US03668461 06/06/1972 OUTPUT DISPLAY FOR USE WITH A CALCULATOR ??? US03641328 02/08/1972 KEYBOARD ENTRY MEANS AND POWER CONTROL MEANS FOR CALCULATOR ??? US03623156 11/23/1971 CALCULATOR EMPLOYING MULTIPLE REGISTERS AND FEEDBACK PATHS FOR FLEXIBLE SUBROUTINE CONTROL ??? US03576983 05/04/1971 DIGITAL CALCULATOR SYSTEM FOR COMPUTING SQUARE ROOTS -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20011129/86c47507/attachment.html From mark_k at totalise.co.uk Thu Nov 29 14:16:07 2001 From: mark_k at totalise.co.uk (Mark Knibbs) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:23:56 2005 Subject: Central Point Option Board (earlier non-ASIC version) chips Message-ID: <3CBB48EE@mail.totalise.co.uk> Hi, This is quite urgent. Can someone who has the earlier version of the Central Point Option Board (also known as Copy II PC Option Board) please type up the part numbers of all chips on the card? Or scan the card at a decent resolution so all chip markings are legible. I want to get datasheets for as many of the ICs on the card as possible. Assuming some are not just simple TTL chips, the best place to look for these would be the FreeTradeZone web site. As mentioned a few days ago, that will no longer be accessible for free in a few days time. (I don't have an older Option Board yet. I want to get info on the ICs it uses for a possible future reverse-engineering effort, to figure out how the card works, and allow low-level disk-imaging software to be written.) -- Mark From classiccmp at knm.yi.org Thu Nov 29 14:22:02 2001 From: classiccmp at knm.yi.org (Matt London) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:23:56 2005 Subject: OT: Compaq Presario 1200 Restore CDs Message-ID: Hi, I know this is completely off topic for the list, but I'm in a bit of a jam. My girlfriend owns a compaq presario 1200 laptop, and the windows install is b0rked (surprise surprise). The company she bought it from refuse to supply her with the CDs and manuals that came with it originally (it was supplied as ex.demo as a replacement for a broken model they couldn't replace exactly). Anyway, the result of this is I'm looking for someone who has said CDs and wouldn't mind copying them, or even making isos for me, so I can get her laptop up and running again. Thanks a lot guys - I'll try not to be off topic in future :&) -- Matt --- Web Page: http://knm.yi.org/ http://pkl.net/~matt/ PGP Key fingerprint = 00BF 19FE D5F5 8EAD 2FD5 D102 260E 8BA7 EEE4 8D7F PGP Key http://knm.yi.org/matt-pgp.html From pete at dunnington.u-net.com Thu Nov 29 19:15:59 2001 From: pete at dunnington.u-net.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:23:56 2005 Subject: OT: Compaq Presario 1200 Restore CDs In-Reply-To: Matt London "OT: Compaq Presario 1200 Restore CDs" (Nov 29, 20:22) References: Message-ID: <10111300115.ZM1494@mindy.dunnington.u-net.com> On Nov 29, 20:22, Matt London wrote: > Hi, > I know this is completely off topic for the list, but I'm in a bit of a > jam. My girlfriend owns a compaq presario 1200 laptop, and the windows > install is b0rked (surprise surprise). The company she bought it from > refuse to supply her with the CDs and manuals that came with it originally > (it was supplied as ex.demo as a replacement for a broken model they > couldn't replace exactly). > > Anyway, the result of this is I'm looking for someone who has said CDs > and wouldn't mind copying them, or even making isos for me, so I can get > her laptop up and running again. You may not need them. You can probably just do a standard Windows install, and add any special drivers you need. You can download most things from Compaq's website, look at http://www.compaq.com/athome/support/ If my (limited) experience of Compaqs is anything to go by, you're probably better off with a standard install anyway, all the special CDs seem to do is make backups of certain things and possibly configure the BIOS. You used to be able to get all the setup disks from Compaq's website, though I haven't looked at it for a while. -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager University of York From mtapley at swri.edu Thu Nov 29 15:43:26 2001 From: mtapley at swri.edu (Mark Tapley) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:23:56 2005 Subject: History of Computing exam question In-Reply-To: <200111291841.MAA86990@opal.tseinc.com> Message-ID: Hans asked: >List the 20 to 30 systems you would display and briefly explain the >reason for choosing each. Fun question. Don't have time to really organize, but here's parts of my list: Napier's Bones digital solution for one class of computing problem Slide Rule (almost any) Analog computation, and portable computing power. Application of a fairly disjoint set of technologies to a very focussed solution that met a serious need in engineering Abacus (almost any) As with the slide rule, but now a discrete digital technology. Babbage's Engine ...or plans, if it couldn't be found or made a replica of. Large-scale compute power, digital technology with the greatest flexibility so far Bowditch's "American Practical Navigator" and a sextant Illustration of the market drive for computing power, and the tabular approach to meeting heavy-duty geometrical calculation problems. (Could just as well be the old Admiralty tables, I'm just biased in favor of Bowditch 'cause I'm American.) Zuse-1 (fill in the blank) Enigma machine, and Bomb (a matched pair) *serious* market drive -> compute power response for a single application Eniac (fill in the blank) IBM 360 (fill in the blank) PDP-11/xx Pick a good one, first minicomputer/lab computer. Brought compute power into a lot of lower-cost applications. Dec Rainbow typifies both MS-DOS and CP-M machines. somewhat breakthrough OS flexibility, (MS-DOS, CP/M, CCP/M, Venix, all of which were preexisting). Mac 128k GUI OS for the masses, origin of "friendly" computers (first computer to *smile* at me). VAX - any Illustration of successful extension of an existing architecture to more bits (twice as many) Alpha - any As VAX, but to 64 bits/RISC Cray 1 Vector supercomputer, electromechanical design breakthrough Newton PDA origin. Perq microprogramming, early workstation, heck Tony likes it so it must be good... F-14 flight computer integrated circuit microprocessor first application (?) NeXT Cube (original) OO system, sizeable leap in developer environment quality Sun Sparc-5 Desktop workstation, power/price/size breakthrough Sony Vaio or Mac Titanium Laptops get to practical size and retain serious power. DVD player (any) or CD player market driver for serious compute power cheap Sony PSX as above, including graphics Jet engine FADEC unit (any) compute power seriously ruggedized and making a pilot's life easier (livable). I'm sure I've left out a lot, apologies to all concerned. - Mark From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Nov 29 17:39:58 2001 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:23:56 2005 Subject: History of Computing exam question In-Reply-To: from "Mark Tapley" at Nov 29, 1 03:43:26 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 3075 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20011129/47846bc8/attachment.ksh From csmith at amdocs.com Thu Nov 29 16:31:22 2001 From: csmith at amdocs.com (Christopher Smith) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:23:56 2005 Subject: History of Computing exam question Message-ID: <3B55D7F383B0D31197D9009027541CBF1170DEFE@cmiexch1.cmi.itds.com> > -----Original Message----- > From: Mark Tapley [mailto:mtapley@swri.edu] > Hans asked: > >List the 20 to 30 systems you would display and briefly explain the > >reason for choosing each. > Fun question. Don't have time to really organize, but here's > parts of my list: [snip] A few good ones you didn't mention: Starbridge sytems HAL A new production system that's completely FPGA based, and sports some pretty impressive performance numbers. Strictly speaking off-topic since it's a new machine... SGI Iris 2000 Likely the first serious (depending on your definition of the word) graphical workstation Amiga (any) Aside from being the epitome of desktop computing, it's the only system I know that's survived buy-outs Regards, Chris Christopher Smith, Perl Developer Amdocs - Champaign, IL /usr/bin/perl -e ' print((~"\x95\xc4\xe3"^"Just Another Perl Hacker.")."\x08!\n"); ' From pcm2000 at teleline.es Thu Nov 29 18:24:28 2001 From: pcm2000 at teleline.es (Pedro A. Cabrera) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:23:56 2005 Subject: History of Computing exam question References: <3B55D7F383B0D31197D9009027541CBF1170DEFE@cmiexch1.cmi.itds.com> Message-ID: <3C06D1BC.AD60B1A6@teleline.es> Hi all, you should also include a Sinclair ZX-Spectrum 48K. This was the most sold home computer in Europe during the eighties, much more sold than the Commodore 64 (which had a factory in Germany). This small computer (Speccy as we name it) helped the spread of computing knowledge among thousands of people. Many of current european IT professionals started with it. I think it did a very important role in the recent history of computing in Europe. I know that in the USA things went a different way. regards, Pedro Christopher Smith wrote: > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: Mark Tapley [mailto:mtapley@swri.edu] > > > Hans asked: > > > >List the 20 to 30 systems you would display and briefly explain the > > >reason for choosing each. > > > Fun question. Don't have time to really organize, but here's > > parts of my list: > > [snip] > > A few good ones you didn't mention: > > Starbridge sytems HAL > > A new production system that's completely FPGA based, and sports some pretty > impressive performance numbers. > > Strictly speaking off-topic since it's a new machine... > > SGI Iris 2000 > > Likely the first serious (depending on your definition of the word) > graphical workstation > > Amiga (any) > > Aside from being the epitome of desktop computing, it's the only system I > know that's survived buy-outs > > Regards, > > Chris > > Christopher Smith, Perl Developer > Amdocs - Champaign, IL > > /usr/bin/perl -e ' > print((~"\x95\xc4\xe3"^"Just Another Perl Hacker.")."\x08!\n"); > ' > From mikeford at socal.rr.com Thu Nov 29 16:03:28 2001 From: mikeford at socal.rr.com (Mike Ford) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:23:56 2005 Subject: ThinNet coax hubs In-Reply-To: References: <000301c17881$70372120$09c7fec7@dionysus> Message-ID: A small batch of thinnet (coax) hubs has turned up at a surplus joint I visit, and I picked up a couple for my own amusement. Anybody want one let me know, price I am gussing at $5 to $10 and shipping from SoCal. (Maybe SynOptics, or Allied Tellsis) From csmith at amdocs.com Thu Nov 29 16:21:41 2001 From: csmith at amdocs.com (Christopher Smith) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:23:56 2005 Subject: Compaq Presario 1200 Restore CDs Message-ID: <3B55D7F383B0D31197D9009027541CBF1170DEFD@cmiexch1.cmi.itds.com> > -----Original Message----- > From: Matt London [mailto:classiccmp@knm.yi.org] > jam. My girlfriend owns a compaq presario 1200 laptop, and the windows > install is b0rked (surprise surprise). The company she bought it from > refuse to supply her with the CDs and manuals that came with > it originally > (it was supplied as ex.demo as a replacement for a broken model they > couldn't replace exactly). I don't suppose you've suggested netbsd to her? ;) I suppose I'm lucky that mine hates windows _almost_ as much as I. Regards, Chris Christopher Smith, Perl Developer Amdocs - Champaign, IL /usr/bin/perl -e ' print((~"\x95\xc4\xe3"^"Just Another Perl Hacker.")."\x08!\n"); ' From jkaye at isd.net Thu Nov 29 16:09:56 2001 From: jkaye at isd.net (jkaye) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:23:56 2005 Subject: OT: Fear and helpfulness on classiccmp References: Message-ID: <3C06B234.17D2F518@isd.net> Ernest wrote: > > No judge is going to bother even looking at a case like that. Why? Because > no one but busy bodies and dim-witted spoil sports would be mean enough to > consider it in legal terms. The only people who would even pay attention to > it would be ex grade school hall monitors and meter maids -in other words, > people who have such meaningless and worthless lives that the only personal > joy they get from living is to try to make other people feel as pathetic as > they do. More along the lines of: How much money can we make off of this/you? If there is no money to be made, no one is going to waste the time. -- Joseph Kaye 1989 Lincoln Mark VII LSC 1995 Ford Aerostar XLT -80HP NOS System -Contemplating Nitrous Install... -B&M AOD Shift Kit -4.0 V6 / Electronic 4wd -Addco Swaybars and Koni Struts -ALL YOUR BASE ARE BELONG TO US From dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com Thu Nov 29 16:29:05 2001 From: dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com (Douglas Quebbeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:23:56 2005 Subject: Adobe Loss in California District Court, Good News for Classi cCmp rs Message-ID: <7A9BACCEF0171D4FB77019F5104CDD372259E1@jeffserver.tegjeff.com> > On Thu, 29 Nov 2001, Douglas Quebbeman wrote: > > > I'm not sure how many of you have seen this yet, but Adobe has lost a > > suit regarding the transferrability of software licenses. The court > > has rules that even if the wording of a license specifically prohibits > > the resale of the software by the original buyer to a new owner, the > > original owner is within their rights in doing so. > > > > Of course, without a doubt, Adobe will likely appeal this at least as > > far as the California Supreme Court. We can only hope they'll lose > > there as well. > > We can only hope that common sense will continue to prevail. We can only hope! -dq From mythtech at Mac.com Thu Nov 29 16:42:00 2001 From: mythtech at Mac.com (Chris) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:23:56 2005 Subject: Any value to anyone Message-ID: Are these of any value to anyone (ie: does anyone want these, sale/trade/pickup whatever): Intel branded 386 (looks like an AT clone like case). 8mb RAM, 40m IDE HD, 5.25 HD FDD, 3.5 HD FDD, VGA, 1 Parallel, 2 Serial, AT Keyboard, ISA slots. IBM 5160, 5.25 FDD, 3.5 FDD (both DD?), 20mb XT Hard Drive, CGA, 1 parallel, 1 serial. Neither are tested yet, I picked them up out of the garbage last night. I scored about a dozen machines in various condition. These are the only two of interest so far. (Others have been partially canabalized generic 286's, 386's and 486's... now they are totally canabalized, and the carcases have been dumpstered). If someone has some interest, I would be willing to test these machines, otherwise they too will be stripped untested and unneeded/wanted parts will be dumped. Also, I have an IBM ProPrinter, and some Epson cut sheet dot matrix printer thing, both also untested if anyone has an interest (at least these will eventually be tested and either shelved/traded/given away if working, or pitched if dead) I'll hold them until tomorrow (friday), but then they get stripped. -chris From rhblakeman at kih.net Thu Nov 29 17:20:35 2001 From: rhblakeman at kih.net (Russ Blakeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:23:56 2005 Subject: Ebay: Tandy portable computer printer cable Message-ID: I just posted a Tandy 25-1409 cable on ebay that I though smeone here might be interested in. Look up item 1304091652 to see it. The package states that it's for "most portable computers" and has a centronics 36 on one side, IDS 26 female on the other. From steve at airborn.com.au Thu Nov 29 18:49:13 2001 From: steve at airborn.com.au (Steven Murray) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:23:56 2005 Subject: Dataproducts printer inteface Message-ID: <005e01c17938$d62eb800$4211083d@garuda> Does anyone have details on the signals used in the (old) Dataproducts printer inteface? Basically I know it uses differential signals - otherwise similar to centronics - but I would like details. I have the Pinout: http://www.hardwarebook.net/connector/parallel/dataproductsdsub50.html I would like a description of "Demand" signal and the polarity of "Strobe" and "OnLine" I would like to know the levels (I presume TTL) If anyone can help me out, perhaps I can respond in kind by giving them the final result - a circuit for a Centronics-->Dataproducts interface. steve@airborn.com.au From tothwolf at concentric.net Thu Nov 29 19:28:00 2001 From: tothwolf at concentric.net (Tothwolf) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:23:56 2005 Subject: 5.25" low-capacity hard disks (was Re: Is it a Lisa or Mac XL?!) In-Reply-To: <20011129184655.37589.qmail@web20105.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: On Thu, 29 Nov 2001, Ethan Dicks wrote: > --- Tony Duell wrote: > > > I beliueve that in the Apple Profile, only the ST506 HDA (and maybe the > > spindle motor board) is used. The standard control board is not. Instead > > there's an Apple board that connectes directly to the index sensor, > > cylinder 0 sensor, stepper motor, and heads. > > It's reasons like this that I buy the old 5.25" mechs I see. I was > profoundly disappointed this year when I bought a Tandon TM602S (as > found in a Commodore D9060 hard disk) for $5, only to find that all > the fine wires that enter and exit the HDA have been snipped. The > board is there, but there is no harness to plug into it. I suppose I > can test the board on one of the TM602S drives I have that work and > put it in the appropriate pile as a spare for the future. I have less > confidence I could restore the harness. I suppose that if I have a > head-crash someday, I could plunder its wiring, but there'd be the > risk that the wiring was removed because _that_ had already happened > to the previous owner. I bought a Toshiba 8086 laptop a few years ago at auction, and found someone had drilled the interface connector on the side of the drive. This particular drive has the platter motor directly mounted to the board, so the pcboard seals the media inside the housing. I ended up cleaning the outside of the drive best I could, and breaking it down inside lab grade plastic bags. I never have finished work on it, tho it's all still sealed in plastic, waiting for me to replace its interface connector... -Toth From tothwolf at concentric.net Thu Nov 29 19:35:36 2001 From: tothwolf at concentric.net (Tothwolf) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:23:56 2005 Subject: Martha Stewart In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Thu, 29 Nov 2001, Russ Blakeman wrote: > I was going to mention that but last discussion about PS/2 towers as bed > tables and PDP's for living room stuff got nasty so I thought I'd hold that > thought :-) Even tho I don't think they are considered "classics" quite yet...I've thought about using some of my old SGI 4D "single tower" boxes as tables in the den...Only hard part is hiding their huge 20A power cables if I want to keep using them :) -Toth From tothwolf at concentric.net Thu Nov 29 19:50:06 2001 From: tothwolf at concentric.net (Tothwolf) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:23:56 2005 Subject: Ampro Littleboard problems.. In-Reply-To: <7A9BACCEF0171D4FB77019F5104CDD372259DB@jeffserver.tegjeff.com> Message-ID: On Thu, 29 Nov 2001, Douglas Quebbeman wrote: > > > I presume that is a typo and it really is an FD-55B. Is it terminated? > > > > I wouldn't bet on it. There is an FD-54B. That Sanyo MBC555 MS-DOS > > machine has a couple of them in it (or at least mine does). I have no > > idea what the difference between the FD-54B and the FD-55B is, though. Teac has some pdf files on their .jp website. I found them once while using google to search for jumper settings for these drives. > Have a likely-dead one of those drives laying around, > should anyone be interested... I've got a huge box full Teac FD-55 drives somewhere. I think they all have the gray faceplate/levers instead of black or ivory. All of those drives were pulls from working equipment, so I think they are all in working order. I might be willing to get rid of just a few of these later, once I get everything moved into the new shop ;) -Toth From ghldbrd at ccp.com Thu Nov 29 20:07:52 2001 From: ghldbrd at ccp.com (Gary Hildebrand) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:23:56 2005 Subject: Lexmark serial to parallel converter Message-ID: <3C06E9F8.D7A48C83@ccp.com> I recently picked up a Lexmark serial to parallel converter p/n 1363110 and was wondering if anyone on the list might have a setup doc on it? It has 12 dip switches and NO markings. I called Lexmark customer Service, and discovered that it is an oxymoron . . . . Gary Hildebrand St. Joseph, MO From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Thu Nov 29 15:00:21 2001 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (Ben Franchuk) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:23:56 2005 Subject: History of Computing exam question References: Message-ID: <3C06A1E5.4F6DB6E2@jetnet.ab.ca> Tony Duell wrote: rganised, and doubtless some of the > > [1] The PE Digical may be one of the first hobbyist calculators > (published 1972, all built from TTL chips), but it wasn't programmable. > Stick it on the list if you like. Got more details??? > Other machines that maybe should be on the list are Cray 1 (famous > supercomputer), CDC Cyber (or whatever the early supercomputer was > called), Inmos ITEM (transputer based machine, to remind us of a > wonderful CPU that went (almost) nowhere), Apple Lisa, Apple Mac 128, > VAX11/780 How about mine -- brings octal back to computer programing. :) There is shortage of 12/24 bit cpu's you know. > -tony -- Ben Franchuk --- Pre-historic Cpu's -- www.jetnet.ab.ca/users/bfranchuk/index.html From tothwolf at concentric.net Thu Nov 29 20:02:22 2001 From: tothwolf at concentric.net (Tothwolf) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:23:56 2005 Subject: OT: Compaq Presario 1200 Restore CDs In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Thu, 29 Nov 2001, Matt London wrote: > I know this is completely off topic for the list, but I'm in a bit of a > jam. My girlfriend owns a compaq presario 1200 laptop, and the windows > install is b0rked (surprise surprise). The company she bought it from > refuse to supply her with the CDs and manuals that came with it originally > (it was supplied as ex.demo as a replacement for a broken model they > couldn't replace exactly). > > Anyway, the result of this is I'm looking for someone who has said CDs > and wouldn't mind copying them, or even making isos for me, so I can get > her laptop up and running again. > > Thanks a lot guys - I'll try not to be off topic in future :&) You can get the quickrestore and softpaq cds at no change from Compaq: http://www.compaq.com/corporate/overview/s_s_and_train.html You'll need the model and serial numbers from the machine when you call them. The serial number is usually on a white sticker on the side and back of the machine. -Toth From Innfogra at aol.com Thu Nov 29 20:50:20 2001 From: Innfogra at aol.com (Innfogra@aol.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:23:56 2005 Subject: Scrapping hardware to get it off the books (RE: Is it a Lisa or Mac XL?!) Message-ID: In a message dated 11/29/01 2:39:57 PM Pacific Standard Time, dhquebbeman@theestopinalgroup.com writes: > My only concern is that I might get asked "are you the guy in > the red Audi who was diggint through my stuff?" > I don't think you have to worry about a few Apples. They are more plastic than scrap. Apple II breakage is worth about 6 cents per pound In one warehouse we rented in NW Portland over a decade ago we used to roll out pallets of valueless stuff (filmstrip projectors, school electronics, old terminals not worth taking apart) and leave it on the sidewalk overnight. We would then go up several floors and watch people go by, screech to a halt and fill their cars with as much as they could cram in. We had a great time watching and it cut our garbage bill in half. Valuable stuff doesn't get left outside. Go ask. You will be rewarded with surprises. Let us know what you find. If you are interested in purchasing some of his scrap, offer him twice the scrap value. If you or anyone on the list needs help establishing scrap values please contact me offline. Paxton Astoria, OR -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20011129/a8d5568f/attachment.html From cmurillo at emtelsa.multi.net.co Thu Nov 29 21:21:04 2001 From: cmurillo at emtelsa.multi.net.co (Carlos Murillo) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:23:56 2005 Subject: Slowdown util for 486/586 systems to emulate XT/AT systems In-Reply-To: <40.15256962.2937f9b3@aol.com> Message-ID: <3.0.2.32.20011129222104.018240d0@obregon.multi.net.co> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text/enriched Size: 534 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20011129/c7b02220/attachment.bin From geneb at deltasoft.com Thu Nov 29 21:37:26 2001 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (Gene Buckle) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:23:56 2005 Subject: Littleboard Lives! In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <000701c17950$54bb7340$09c7fec7@dionysus> It's kind of odd hearing a 5.25 disk being formatted after all these years. :) Of the disks I have with the system, I seem to be missing the tools to format a hard drive for the machine. They're "H" tools - HINIT, HFORMAT, etc. If anyone here has them, I'd really appriciate getting copies! FYI, my BIOS revision is 3.8 - 3.0 is the min rev listed in the manual. Thanks! G. From donm at cts.com Fri Nov 30 00:23:11 2001 From: donm at cts.com (Don Maslin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:23:56 2005 Subject: Scrapping hardware to get it off the books (RE: Is it a Lisa or Mac XL?!) In-Reply-To: <7A9BACCEF0171D4FB77019F5104CDD372259E0@jeffserver.tegjeff.com> Message-ID: On Thu, 29 Nov 2001, Douglas Quebbeman wrote: > > I doubt it. There may be very few contracts that require this sort of > > thing, but honestly, if the company scrapping the equipment was that worried > > about it, they'd scrap it themselves. I have heard that NSA does this, and > > that further they (to paraphrase) "slag their disks and post armed guards > > around the slag." > > it's true; a friend has a CDC 1700, formerly NSA property... > and nothing that could hold software was part of the deal > (although I think he got to keep the core). > > -dq > I picked up a little Miniscribe 3.5" HD at a swap meet a few years ago that carried a sticker stating that it had been rendered clean by NSA. They must really have a stout degausser for that job. This one was so `neutralized' that even the drive motor would not spin up. - don From dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com Fri Nov 30 06:37:34 2001 From: dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com (Douglas Quebbeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:23:56 2005 Subject: Scrapping hardware to get it off the books (RE: Is it a Lisa or Mac XL?!) Message-ID: <7A9BACCEF0171D4FB77019F5104CDD372259E7@jeffserver.tegjeff.com> On Thu, 29 Nov 2001, Douglas Quebbeman wrote: > > > > Unless he chases you away with a shotgun loaded with rock salt. That > > > would hurt. > > > > My only concern is that I might get asked "are you the guy in > > the red Audi who was diggint through my stuff?" > > Take the bus. HAHAHHAHAHA! Louisville has the Transit Authority of River City (TARC), and a few busses and shuttles come over across the Ohio to Indiana, but no way is it anything like you can stand on a corner, go somewhere in Indiana, get off, do something, etc. There isn't even a bus route I can take home from work (though there is one I can take *to* work)... -dq From dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com Fri Nov 30 06:40:56 2001 From: dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com (Douglas Quebbeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:23:56 2005 Subject: Scrapping hardware to get it off the books (RE: Is it a Lisa or Mac XL?!) Message-ID: <7A9BACCEF0171D4FB77019F5104CDD372259E8@jeffserver.tegjeff.com> > > My only concern is that I might get asked "are you the guy in > > the red Audi who was diggint through my stuff?" > > > > ;) > > > > -dq > > paint the car! > :) Good suggestion... I never wanted to own a red car, red paint adds 20mph to the apparant land speed... -dq From dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com Fri Nov 30 13:05:09 2001 From: dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com (Douglas Quebbeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:23:56 2005 Subject: Scrapping hardware to get it off the books (RE: Is it a Lisa or Mac XL?!) Message-ID: <7A9BACCEF0171D4FB77019F5104CDD372259F2@jeffserver.tegjeff.com> > >Should I even bother going back and asking to see the stuff > >in the yard? Or, has this firm agreed not to resell anything > >(I'm kinda assuming that what's true for this guy is industry > >standard). > Well, I went by today to talk to the proprietor... Yes, they will be happy to sell the stuff they've got, if I see anything I want. The big, interesting box I saw from the street appears to be a UniSys terminal concentrator. At least it's full of boards with DB9's on it, so it somewhat reminded me of my Prime terminal concentrator. I did specifically ask about "boxes with switches and lights" and they indicated they had seen such things in the past. They further ventured that "no one is interested in that stuff" so I think I've got a live one, boyr and girls... If anyone's looking for a Unisys terminal concentrator or if you thknk that vox is something you want whatever it is, let me know. I'll be visiting them regularly to see what's new and what I missed on my brief visit. I'll post anything that seems worth posting. I'll not likely mention the plethora of Apple // and Mac stuff, since it's the same stuff I hear about being available everywhere. Regards, -dq From mythtech at Mac.com Fri Nov 30 14:02:07 2001 From: mythtech at Mac.com (Chris) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:23:56 2005 Subject: Scrapping hardware to get it off the books (RE: Is it a Lisa or Mac XL?!) Message-ID: >I'll not likely >mention the plethora of Apple // and Mac stuff, since >it's the same stuff I hear about being available everywhere. If you could give a cursory mention (at least to me) about the gist of the stuff, that would be great. (I don't expect a full mention, but concepts like "there were some classic Macs there, and some boards for Apple IIs that look like serial cards"). Just so I have an idea, as it seems, around here, no one has old Apple or Mac parts (the machines are available out the ass, but the extras are slim pickings). Thanks -chris From dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com Fri Nov 30 14:48:46 2001 From: dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com (Douglas Quebbeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:23:56 2005 Subject: Scrapping hardware to get it off the books (RE: Is it a Lisa or Mac XL?!) Message-ID: <7A9BACCEF0171D4FB77019F5104CDD372259F7@jeffserver.tegjeff.com> > If you could give a cursory mention (at least to me) about the gist of > the stuff, that would be great. (I don't expect a full mention, but > concepts like "there were some classic Macs there, and some boards for > Apple IIs that look like serial cards"). I saw a pair of 5.25 inch floppy units; the top of either a Mac Classic or an SE (a Classic, I think); the backside of either a IIcx, IIci, or Quadra 700; Extended Keyboard IIs; There was a SuperMac monitor, smaller than the 19inch Radius I've got, but the bug mentioned a "huge" one in back. Since I pulled two //e from outside their firm last week, I'm somewhat loaded-up; I only need to get one working (which may involve nothing at all), and both units had serial boards; one was Apple-orginal, the other 3rd-party. I should mention that I'm heavily laden with Macs, having been the repository of all the ones we used to have here at our firm. Whatcha need? I could spare at least one or more of the following: Quadra 605 (LCII form factor) Quadra 650 Quadra 700 Mac IIci I have Extended Keyboard IIs, and maybe one or two of either the smaller keyboard and/or the split keyboard. Not sure if I have any working mice I can spare... Drive capacties would be from 80MB to 170MB... Regards, -dq From DAW at yalepress3.unipress.yale.edu Fri Nov 30 15:34:05 2001 From: DAW at yalepress3.unipress.yale.edu (David Woyciesjes) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:23:56 2005 Subject: Scrapping hardware to get it off the books (RE: Is it a Lisa or Mac XL?!) Message-ID: <9011A52E011ED311B4280004AC1BA6150146730C@yalepress3.unipress.yale.edu> ! I saw ... a SuperMac monitor, smaller than the 19inch ! Radius I've got, but the bug mentioned a "huge" one in back. Really? Any idea if they work, and what shipping to CT (06520-9040) might be? ! I have ... and/or the split keyboard. Cool. That is a neat piece of Mac history. How much? --- David A Woyciesjes --- C & IS Support Specialist --- Yale University Press --- mailto:david.woyciesjes@yale.edu --- (203) 432-0953 --- ICQ # - 905818 From mythtech at Mac.com Fri Nov 30 15:51:22 2001 From: mythtech at Mac.com (Chris) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:23:56 2005 Subject: Scrapping hardware to get it off the books (RE: Is it a Lisa or Mac XL?!) Message-ID: >I should mention that I'm heavily laden with Macs, having >been the repository of all the ones we used to have here >at our firm. Whatcha need? I could spare at least one or >more of the following: > > Quadra 605 (LCII form factor) > Quadra 650 > Quadra 700 > Mac IIci > >I have Extended Keyboard IIs, and maybe one or two of >either the smaller keyboard and/or the split keyboard. Humm... I have been hunting for a multi ethernet capable 040 for a while (so the 650 or 700 would work), to replace my IIsi with SCSI ethernet firewall/router... but I recently ran into a problem with the 68k version of IPNetRouter, and am thinking of going to a PPC with it. What are you looking to get for either a 650 or a 700? Also, if by the "split keyboard" you mean the short lived ergonomic keyboard apple offered, that would be cool. I can use it in place of my current keyboard and see if it helps me any. Where are you located? (just to get an idea of shipping possibilites... I can already rule out things like monitors, too hard to safely ship unless it is one that I just HAVE to have). As far as things I am actively LOOKING for... I want a 660AV, a MacTV, 20th Anniv Mac, Lisa (obviously), and an Apple TV Tuner card with remote. But I will take anything Apple related that people will just give me (although not everything stays with me, better useable macs get given out to people that can't afford a computer... for instance, the Classic II I got from David I am giving to someone for Xmas that has no computer, the kid can at least use it for writing school papers, checking email, basic web browsing, and playing some games... it is a step ahead of the nothingness he can use right now). -chris From dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com Fri Nov 30 16:04:05 2001 From: dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com (Douglas Quebbeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:23:56 2005 Subject: Scrapping hardware to get it off the books (RE: Is it a Lisa or Mac XL?!) Message-ID: <7A9BACCEF0171D4FB77019F5104CDD372259F9@jeffserver.tegjeff.com> > ! I saw ... a SuperMac monitor, smaller than the 19inch > ! Radius I've got, but the bug mentioned a "huge" one in back. > > Really? Any idea if they work, and what shipping to CT (06520-9040) might > be? I gotta take an afternoon off to tour the whole facility, maybe next week? (they're closed weekends). > ! I have ... and/or the split keyboard. > > Cool. That is a neat piece of Mac history. How much? Well, Shreve Systems bought a stack of them from me at $35 each... I'm not even positive I kept more than one, but I'll check. -dq From dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com Fri Nov 30 16:32:25 2001 From: dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com (Douglas Quebbeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:23:56 2005 Subject: Scrapping hardware to get it off the books (RE: Is it a Lisa or Mac XL?!) Message-ID: <7A9BACCEF0171D4FB77019F5104CDD372259FA@jeffserver.tegjeff.com> > Humm... I have been hunting for a multi ethernet capable 040 for a while > (so the 650 or 700 would work), to replace my IIsi with SCSI ethernet > firewall/router... but I recently ran into a problem with the 68k version > of IPNetRouter, and am thinking of going to a PPC with it. Tried Vicom Internet Gateway? > What are you looking to get for either a 650 or a 700? Trade, hopefully; otherwise, I'll try to come up with a friendly price. > Also, if by the "split keyboard" you mean the short lived ergonomic > keyboard apple offered, that would be cool. I can use it in place of my > current keyboard and see if it helps me any. Dang, David spoke up first, and I'm not sure how many I have. I'll inventory everything this weekend... > Where are you located? (just to get an idea of shipping possibilites... I > can already rule out things like monitors, too hard to safely ship unless > it is one that I just HAVE to have). Clarksville, Indiana, the sunnier side of the Louisville KY metro area. > As far as things I am actively LOOKING for... I want a 660AV, a MacTV, > 20th Anniv Mac, Lisa (obviously), and an Apple TV Tuner card > with remote. TAM is also on my want list; I am passing on a Lisa that's a stone's throw away, because the guy won't wait two weeks for payment. OTOH, he did say he might have another one soon... I have an 840AV, but only one, and I think the motherboard is flaky (Shreve Systems sells 840AV mobos for about $100). > But I will take anything Apple related that people will just give me > (although not everything stays with me, better useable macs get given out > to people that can't afford a computer... for instance, the Classic II I > got from David I am giving to someone for Xmas that has no computer, the > kid can at least use it for writing school papers, checking email, basic > web browsing, and playing some games... it is a step ahead of the > nothingness he can use right now). The eventual goal is to pare down the pile I've got into no more than one each of whatever I want to keep. But right now that feels *so* much like work... -dq From mythtech at Mac.com Fri Nov 30 17:40:56 2001 From: mythtech at Mac.com (Chris) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:23:57 2005 Subject: Scrapping hardware to get it off the books (RE: Is it a Lisa or Mac XL?!) Message-ID: >Tried Vicom Internet Gateway? I am loyal to Sustainable Softworks because their support is really really good. (although, they no longer really support the 68k version of IPNR, and supposedly the PPC version will fix my problem, but since it is just an issue getting DNS passed thru to Win95, it isn't a big priority for me) >Trade, hopefully; otherwise, I'll try to come up >with a friendly price. Well, what are you looking for? (Other than a TAM like me). I have odds and ends, maybe I have something you want. (I have some Apple II stuff, and lots of Mac stuff, and a bunch of PC stuff that I am aching to get rid of) >Dang, David spoke up first, and I'm not sure how many I have. >I'll inventory everything this weekend... Yeah, I already told him I would kick his ass for it if I had to... of course doing so would mean driving a few hours north to CT, which beh... just isn't worth it (got that dave... I-95 is the only thing keeping me from getting the keyboard... LOL) >Clarksville, Indiana, the sunnier side of the Louisville KY metro area. Too far to drive (well, not really, since I like road tripping, but my available time, and funds are too in demand right now to be able to kill a weekend heading out that way) >I am passing on a Lisa that's a stone's >throw away, because the guy won't wait two weeks for payment. OTOH, >he did say he might have another one soon... Wha?!? How much? I assume if you need him to wait a week, it will be out of my price range... but it is worth asking. >The eventual goal is to pare down the pile I've got into >no more than one each of whatever I want to keep. But >right now that feels *so* much like work... Yeah, that is my feeling towards my Plus and SE collection... too many to want to keep, but I refuse to throw them out. And until I can go thru and test them all, to make sure I have one good of each, I am afraid to give them away. -chris From CLeyson at aol.com Fri Nov 30 00:36:16 2001 From: CLeyson at aol.com (CLeyson@aol.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:23:57 2005 Subject: History of Computing exam question Message-ID: <159.4f3fe82.293882e0@aol.com> Tony Duell wrote: > [1] The PE Digical may be one of the first hobbyist calculators > (published 1972, all built from TTL chips), but it wasn't programmable. > Stick it on the list if you like. Sorry no details, but there was a similar design in Wireless World, circa 1968/9 - built from DTL I think. Chris Leyson -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20011130/d28dbb22/attachment.html From hansp at aconit.org Fri Nov 30 01:44:31 2001 From: hansp at aconit.org (Hans B Pufal) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:23:57 2005 Subject: Wireless World Digital Computer - 1967 References: <159.4f3fe82.293882e0@aol.com> Message-ID: <3C0738DF.8080307@aconit.org> CLeyson@aol.com wrote: > Tony Duell wrote: > > [1] The PE Digical may be one of the first hobbyist calculators > > (published 1972, all built from TTL chips), but it wasn't programmable. > > Stick it on the list if you like. > > Sorry no details, but there was a similar design in Wireless World, > circa 1968/9 - built from DTL I think. In August 1967, Wireless World published the first of four articles describing the "Wireless World Digital Computer": "Low cost desk top binary machine for small-scale calcualtions and for use in schools as a teaching aid, designed by B. Crank of "Wireless World" staff. Numbers are fed in manually and results of calcultaions are read from inicator lamps. Instructions entered in binary coded form by a set of switches, are interpreted and carried out automatically by the machine." Constructed from reject germanium transistors, the total cost of parts was estimated at UKP 50. If there is interest I can scan the articles. -- hbp From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Nov 30 16:38:31 2001 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:23:57 2005 Subject: Wireless World Digital Computer - 1967 In-Reply-To: <3C0738DF.8080307@aconit.org> from "Hans B Pufal" at Nov 30, 1 08:44:31 am Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 902 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20011130/0a46972e/attachment.ksh From foxvideo at wincom.net Fri Nov 30 10:01:04 2001 From: foxvideo at wincom.net (Charles E. Fox) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:23:57 2005 Subject: Wireless World Digital Computer - 1967 In-Reply-To: <3C0738DF.8080307@aconit.org> References: <159.4f3fe82.293882e0@aol.com> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20011130105853.00b15ba0@mail.wincom.net> > >In August 1967, Wireless World published the first of four articles describing > >the "Wireless World Digital Computer": > > > "Low cost desk top binary machine for small-scale calcualtions > and for use in schools as a teaching aid, designed by B. Crank > of "Wireless World" staff. Numbers are fed in manually and > results of calcultaions are read from inicator lamps. Instructions > entered in binary coded form by a set of switches, are interpreted > and carried out automatically by the machine." > >Constructed from reject germanium transistors, the total cost of parts was >estimated at UKP 50. > >If there is interest I can scan the articles. > > -- hbp > > > Hi, Hans: I, for one, would be very interested in getting a copy of the articles. Regards Charlie Fox Charles E. Fox Video Production 793 Argyle Rd. Windsor, Ontario, Canada, N8Y3J8 foxvideo@wincom.net Check out the Camcorder Kindergarten at http://chasfoxvideo.com From frustum at pacbell.net Fri Nov 30 01:45:56 2001 From: frustum at pacbell.net (Jim Battle) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:23:57 2005 Subject: History of Computing exam question In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4.3.2.7.0.20011129230300.00a9df00@postoffice.pacbell.net> At 11:39 PM 11/29/01 +0000, Tony Duell wrote: >... >[1] The PE Digical may be one of the first hobbyist calculators >(published 1972, all built from TTL chips), but it wasn't programmable. Please do tell more. I did a quick google search but didn't turn up anything. ----- Jim Battle == frustum@pacbell.net From csmith at amdocs.com Fri Nov 30 09:56:14 2001 From: csmith at amdocs.com (Christopher Smith) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:23:57 2005 Subject: History of Computing exam question Message-ID: <3B55D7F383B0D31197D9009027541CBF1170DF00@cmiexch1.cmi.itds.com> > -----Original Message----- > From: ard@p850ug1.demon.co.uk [mailto:ard@p850ug1.demon.co.uk] > Here's my list. It's a bit disorganised, and doubtless some of the > machines shouldn't really be there, but anyway. I am going to [snip] Ok, one more for me: Symbolics lisp machine (whatever model...) Incredibly advanced for the time... maybe even for today. Regards, Chris Christopher Smith, Perl Developer Amdocs - Champaign, IL /usr/bin/perl -e ' print((~"\x95\xc4\xe3"^"Just Another Perl Hacker.")."\x08!\n"); ' From vance at ikickass.org Fri Nov 30 10:54:07 2001 From: vance at ikickass.org (One Without Reason) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:23:57 2005 Subject: History of Computing exam question In-Reply-To: Message-ID: I'm curious, Tony? Why the PDP-6 and not the PDP-7? Sure, the PDP-6 was used in AI development, but UNIX was written on a PDP-7. Peace... Sridhar On Thu, 29 Nov 2001, Tony Duell wrote: > Here's my list. It's a bit disorganised, and doubtless some of the > machines shouldn't really be there, but anyway. I am going to assume that > this wonderful technology that can grab any machine from the past can > also recreate a machine from the blueprints, even if it was never > actually made. That way I can have the first machine on my list : > From bbrown at harper.cc.il.us Fri Nov 30 12:08:00 2001 From: bbrown at harper.cc.il.us (Bob Brown) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:23:57 2005 Subject: History of Computing exam question In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I would add: HP2000 timeshare system..widely used, often provided the first exposure to computers that got many of us started in the field. -Bob bbrown@harper.cc.il.us #### #### Bob Brown - KB9LFR Harper Community College ## ## ## Systems Administrator Palatine IL USA #### #### Saved by grace From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Fri Nov 30 12:36:21 2001 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (Allison) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:23:57 2005 Subject: History of Computing exam question Message-ID: <000c01c179cd$ea077b60$6b7b7b7b@ajp> Well for one the PDP-6 was a 36 bit machine that predated the PDP10. The PDP-7 was an 18bitter, and unix was devoped on it because they had one and not many other good reasons. Allison -----Original Message----- From: One Without Reason To: Tony Duell Cc: classiccmp@classiccmp.org Date: Friday, November 30, 2001 12:31 PM Subject: Re: History of Computing exam question > >I'm curious, Tony? Why the PDP-6 and not the PDP-7? Sure, the PDP-6 was >used in AI development, but UNIX was written on a PDP-7. > >Peace... Sridhar > >On Thu, 29 Nov 2001, Tony Duell wrote: > >> Here's my list. It's a bit disorganised, and doubtless some of the >> machines shouldn't really be there, but anyway. I am going to assume that >> this wonderful technology that can grab any machine from the past can >> also recreate a machine from the blueprints, even if it was never >> actually made. That way I can have the first machine on my list : >> > From dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com Fri Nov 30 13:07:26 2001 From: dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com (Douglas Quebbeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:23:57 2005 Subject: History of Computing exam question Message-ID: <7A9BACCEF0171D4FB77019F5104CDD372259F3@jeffserver.tegjeff.com> > I would add: HP2000 timeshare system..widely used, often provided the > first exposure to computers that got many of us started in the field. I *think* I played my first computer game on the HP2000 (said game paper tape currently being in Jay West's hands for his HP2000). While I'll likely not ever find one, I'm axious to see a more fully-fleshed-out simulator (unless DIMH will run 2000 Access, in which case, I just need 2000 Access). -dq From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Nov 30 16:34:30 2001 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:23:57 2005 Subject: History of Computing exam question In-Reply-To: <3C06A1E5.4F6DB6E2@jetnet.ab.ca> from "Ben Franchuk" at Nov 29, 1 02:00:21 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1066 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20011130/f0f4cd3d/attachment.ksh From jss at subatomix.com Fri Nov 30 00:36:25 2001 From: jss at subatomix.com (Jeffrey S. Sharp) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:23:57 2005 Subject: Any value to anyone In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20011130003524.C44423-100000@lepton.subatomix.com> On Thu, 29 Nov 2001, Chris wrote: > Are these of any value to anyone (ie: does anyone want these, > sale/trade/pickup whatever): Ok, I think it's my turn to ask the obligatory "Where?" -- Jeffrey S. Sharp jss@subatomix.com From mythtech at Mac.com Fri Nov 30 12:22:04 2001 From: mythtech at Mac.com (Chris) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:23:57 2005 Subject: Any value to anyone Message-ID: >Ok, I think it's my turn to ask the obligatory > > "Where?" New Jersey... but I am retracting my offer on the 5160... I thought I already had an XT, but it turns out I have PCs and ATs, but no XTs, so after a brief scare when someone said they wanted it last night (turns out they really want an AT, so I am trying to arrange to give them one of mine), I am officially retracting the offer of the 5160 so I can round out my collection. The Intel branded 386 is still up for grabs. Along with the IBM ProPrinter and the Epson cut sheet printer thingy... and some 5.25 HD and DD drives. (Drives are known good, but I still haven't tested the printers yet) Sorry :( -chris From Innfogra at aol.com Fri Nov 30 14:22:34 2001 From: Innfogra at aol.com (Innfogra@aol.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:23:57 2005 Subject: Any value to anyone Message-ID: In a message dated 11/30/01 10:32:21 AM Pacific Standard Time, mythtech@Mac.com writes: > The Intel branded 386 is still up for grabs. It is too far away for me. If it is an Intel 301 it is worth saving. It came from Intel at a time they considered trying to break into the PC market. It is a classic machine in it's own right. They gave up the PC market right after this, it is a one and only. It was also very well made. Paxton Astoria, OR -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20011130/c02c6bed/attachment.html From mythtech at Mac.com Fri Nov 30 15:24:31 2001 From: mythtech at Mac.com (Chris) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:23:57 2005 Subject: Any value to anyone Message-ID: >If it is an Intel 301 it is worth saving. It came from Intel at a time they >considered trying to break into the PC market. It is a classic machine in >it's own right. They gave up the PC market right after this, it is a one >and >only. It was also very well made. There is no front label on it, but on the back it has an Intel sticker. The only thing I can find to really ID it is a Product Number (PS302254F4). There are some serial numbers, but nothing else very useful as far as what it is. Maybe based on that prod# it is a "302"? (if there is such a thing). Alas, classic or not, I am not a huge PC collector. I am into Apple stuff, I only really wanted my XT because I had an IBM PC, which is the first "PC" by them, and I had an AT, so the XT just rounded it out... I killed my XT/286, so I lost that already :-( So an "Intel" unit doesn't have any value to me. If however it is a "classic" that might be of interest to others, I might consider shelving it for a future swap meet (if one ever occurs up my direction). But that will all depend on how much shelf space I have to spare. Most likely however, if there are no takers on this list, I will strip it for parts, and pitch the carcass. -chris From donm at cts.com Fri Nov 30 00:53:04 2001 From: donm at cts.com (Don Maslin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:23:57 2005 Subject: CompatiCard I manual Message-ID: Can anyone point me at a scan of the manual for the Compaticard I (or even II). I thought that I was smart enough to make a Xerox copy when I had one, but if so I am not smart enough to find it :( Thanks. - don From donm at cts.com Fri Nov 30 00:55:02 2001 From: donm at cts.com (Don Maslin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:23:57 2005 Subject: Littleboard Lives! In-Reply-To: <000701c17950$54bb7340$09c7fec7@dionysus> Message-ID: On Thu, 29 Nov 2001, Gene Buckle wrote: > It's kind of odd hearing a 5.25 disk being formatted after all these > years. :) > > Of the disks I have with the system, I seem to be missing the tools to > format a hard drive for the machine. > They're "H" tools - HINIT, HFORMAT, etc. If anyone here has them, I'd > really appriciate getting copies! FYI, my BIOS revision is 3.8 - 3.0 is > the min rev listed in the manual. Gene, I have those and will email them to you. - don From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Fri Nov 30 07:23:03 2001 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (Allison) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:23:57 2005 Subject: Littleboard Lives! Message-ID: <000601c179a2$25662ac0$6b7b7b7b@ajp> I have them, I need to dig and transfer to PC though. Allison -----Original Message----- From: Gene Buckle To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org Date: Thursday, November 29, 2001 10:58 PM Subject: Littleboard Lives! >It's kind of odd hearing a 5.25 disk being formatted after all these >years. :) > >Of the disks I have with the system, I seem to be missing the tools to >format a hard drive for the machine. >They're "H" tools - HINIT, HFORMAT, etc. If anyone here has them, I'd >really appriciate getting copies! FYI, my BIOS revision is 3.8 - 3.0 is >the min rev listed in the manual. > >Thanks! > >G. > From geoffr at zipcon.net Fri Nov 30 01:06:25 2001 From: geoffr at zipcon.net (Geoff Reed) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:23:57 2005 Subject: Ampro Littleboard problems.. In-Reply-To: <008801c1791e$3b4d8380$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> References: <3c06a152dcc480.45418957@zipcon.net> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20011129230559.04292460@mail.zipcon.net> if you have a scanner, you could turn them into a PDF :) I was just trying to be helpful.... At 02:38 PM 11/29/01 -0700, you wrote: >I've got several copies. No need to pay 60 cents per sheet. If copies are >needed, I'll get them made for you at whatever the local minimum is, probably >about 5 cents/page, though I haven't used Kinko's in a few years. > >Dick > >----- Original Message ----- >From: >To: >Sent: Thursday, November 29, 2001 1:57 PM >Subject: Re: Re: Ampro Littleboard problems.. > > > > > > http://njcc.com/~hjohnson/s_drives.html > > > > Has the manual for sale, 30 pages @ 25C a page.... > > > > > On Wed, 28 Nov 2001, Gene Buckle wrote: > > > > > > I've got a Littleboard I'm tring to bring up. When I feed it a disk, > > > and power it up, it will select the drive, spin it and shut down after > > > about 3 to 5 seconds. I never hear a head step. Nothing shows up on the > > > serial port (port a, 9600). The drive I'm using is a Teac FD-54B-02-U > > > and the two jumpers are set to DS0 and IU. > > > > > > From edick at idcomm.com Fri Nov 30 10:13:39 2001 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:23:57 2005 Subject: Ampro Littleboard problems.. References: <3c06a152dcc480.45418957@zipcon.net> <5.1.0.14.2.20011129230559.04292460@mail.zipcon.net> Message-ID: <003501c179b9$f93204c0$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> I agree, though it's not practical for me to do that right now. Also, I haven't got the tools to generate PDF's. I generally pass along the TIF files from the scan, and allow the end-user to figure out what to do with them. The normally just print them. Since the schematics are 'B' sized, it wouldn't be easy to make decent scans of them anyway, as my scanners max out at legal size. If he'd wanted the doc's, they'd already be in the mail. If I were scanning, I'd still be at it. My experience with Herb Johnson is that his documents are seldom complete. Now, what he's offered has always been WAY better than nothing, but it's terribly frustrating to buy a manual at $0.60 per sheet only to find it really doesn't contain what you need. Of course there's no way for him to know what you need, but you get what I mean. In a floppy disk OEM manual, if the sheet with the user-installable option jumpers is missing, the whole manual is worthless, though, so I'd be sure to ask him to ensure that all the pages are there, and, in fact, I'd personally prefer to buy just that page. Dick ----- Original Message ----- From: "Geoff Reed" To: Sent: Friday, November 30, 2001 12:06 AM Subject: Re: Re: Ampro Littleboard problems.. > if you have a scanner, you could turn them into a PDF :) I was just trying > to be helpful.... > > At 02:38 PM 11/29/01 -0700, you wrote: > >I've got several copies. No need to pay 60 cents per sheet. If copies are > >needed, I'll get them made for you at whatever the local minimum is, probably > >about 5 cents/page, though I haven't used Kinko's in a few years. > > > >Dick > > > >----- Original Message ----- > >From: > >To: > >Sent: Thursday, November 29, 2001 1:57 PM > >Subject: Re: Re: Ampro Littleboard problems.. > > > > > > > > > > http://njcc.com/~hjohnson/s_drives.html > > > > > > Has the manual for sale, 30 pages @ 25C a page.... > > > > > > > On Wed, 28 Nov 2001, Gene Buckle wrote: > > > > > > > > I've got a Littleboard I'm tring to bring up. When I feed it a disk, > > > > and power it up, it will select the drive, spin it and shut down after > > > > about 3 to 5 seconds. I never hear a head step. Nothing shows up on the > > > > serial port (port a, 9600). The drive I'm using is a Teac FD-54B-02-U > > > > and the two jumpers are set to DS0 and IU. > > > > > > > > > > > From rhblakeman at kih.net Fri Nov 30 13:36:09 2001 From: rhblakeman at kih.net (Russ Blakeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:23:57 2005 Subject: Ampro Littleboard problems.. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: The dark grey Teac units were mostly found in the Sanyo silver units, the MBC-55x series and I needed one last year and it took forever to locate what I needed. I took a blackfaced unit and used it but swapped some odd parts for a worthless grey faced unit to use the lever and faceplate from. Two drives combined equaled a good drive, spare black parts and one DOA in the scrap barrel. -> I've got a huge box full Teac FD-55 drives somewhere. I think they all -> have the gray faceplate/levers instead of black or ivory. All of those -> drives were pulls from working equipment, so I think they are all in -> working order. I might be willing to get rid of just a few of -> these later, -> once I get everything moved into the new shop ;) -> -> -Toth -> -> From mikeford at socal.rr.com Fri Nov 30 04:48:57 2001 From: mikeford at socal.rr.com (Mike Ford) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:23:57 2005 Subject: Scrapping hardware to get it off the books In-Reply-To: Message-ID: > In one warehouse we rented in NW Portland over a decade ago we used to >roll out pallets of valueless stuff (filmstrip projectors, school >electronics, old terminals not worth taking apart) and leave it on the >sidewalk overnight. We would then go up several floors and watch people go >by, > If you are interested in purchasing some of his scrap, offer him twice >the scrap value. If you or anyone on the list needs help establishing >scrap values please contact me offline. Lots of smaller scrap places do that, leave stuff in the alley etc. The trouble is that many scavengers strip the item and leave a mess, ie screws all over. Isn't there some kind of industry wide price list for scrap? Most of the time seems to me the haggling isn't over the price, but what grade your junk is. Buying stuff you have to hit the happy medium, offer too much and you make people curious, offer too little and it isn't worth their time. My most recent purchase has been insulated wire, first batch was a mix of misc wire, cat 5, and some computer cables with connectors. We started at $1.50/lb, but I found a bunch of stuff in the pile so I ended up with 40 lbs, and talked the guy down to $1/lb. Second batch was 180 lbs of wire on spools, mostly 20 guage hookup wire, at the same $1/lb. The way I figure it now we paid a premium on the first batch (lower grade scrap), and got a steal on the second, but in actual value terms to me the first batch was worth more than the second per pound. I've seen companies go both ways on scrapping stuff to get it off the books. The hardline view is that stuff must be trashed and not recovered, but in almost all BIGGER operations selling stuff as scrap is the normal practice. I gotta figure a lot of times the Monday after some hard nose dumps all the old stuff and puts a lock on the trash bins, that there boss does a You Did What! From hansp at aconit.org Fri Nov 30 05:45:35 2001 From: hansp at aconit.org (Hans B Pufal) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:23:57 2005 Subject: Scrapping hardware to get it off the books References: Message-ID: <3C07715F.6020103@aconit.org> It can get down right ridiculous. I once worked for a company in the UK who were working on some hardare which was being developed in Japan. The Japanese sent over three or four prototypes which, for reasons I now forget, we never used. A few months after the Japanese asked that we ship the protoypes back for scrapping! I dread to think of the costs involved. -- hbp From vze2mnvr at verizon.net Fri Nov 30 06:34:35 2001 From: vze2mnvr at verizon.net (Ian Koller) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:23:57 2005 Subject: Scrapping hardware to get it off the books References: <3C07715F.6020103@aconit.org> Message-ID: <3C077CDB.54063CE8@verizon.net> > A few months after the Japanese asked that we ship the protoypes > back for scrapping! I dread to think of the costs involved. It doesn't matter. The value of their intellectual property and trade secrets, and the need to control them, so far outweigh those shipping costs. Ian "They got two good eyes, but they still can't see ..." Hans B Pufal wrote: > > It can get down right ridiculous. > > I once worked for a company in the UK who were working on some hardare > which was being developed in Japan. The Japanese sent over three or four > prototypes which, for reasons I now forget, we never used. A few months > after the Japanese asked that we ship the protoypes back for scrapping! > > I dread to think of the costs involved. > > -- hbp From rigdonj at intellistar.net Fri Nov 30 08:13:10 2001 From: rigdonj at intellistar.net (Joe) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:23:57 2005 Subject: Scrapping hardware to get it off the books In-Reply-To: <3C07715F.6020103@aconit.org> References: Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20011130091310.007a0240@mailhost.intellistar.net> At 12:45 PM 11/30/01 +0100, you wrote: >It can get down right ridiculous. > >I once worked for a company in the UK who were working on some hardare >which was being developed in Japan. The Japanese sent over three or four >prototypes which, for reasons I now forget, we never used. A few months >after the Japanese asked that we ship the protoypes back for scrapping! > >I dread to think of the costs involved. Last year I bought a LARGE crate full of brand new sealed boxs of 8" floppy disks for $50. After buying it I found that the company had shipped them back to the US from Germany, never opened the crate and then sold it for scrap. I'm sure they scrapper gave them less than $10 for the whole thing. I must have cost them 50 times that to ship them back from Germany. Joe From vze2mnvr at verizon.net Fri Nov 30 06:14:09 2001 From: vze2mnvr at verizon.net (Ian Koller) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:23:57 2005 Subject: Is it a Lisa or Mac XL?! References: Message-ID: <3C077811.EC21ABDE@verizon.net> "George Leo Rachor Jr." wrote: > I understand discontinuing a product but could never quite > figure out why you would actually destroy equipment. I mean > what is the point? Because someone, if they got their hands on it, would try to send in that old drive a second time for another free new upgrade one, even though they weren't entitled to it. In their position, I'd destroy them in a heartbeat. They represented a future potential liability. Ian "They got two good eyes, and they still can't see ..." > > George > > ========================================================= > George L. Rachor Jr. george@rachors.com > Hillsboro, Oregon http://rachors.com > United States of America Amateur Radio : KD7DCX > > On Wed, 28 Nov 2001, Chris wrote: > > > I think I read somewhere, that Apple had guards watching the landfill > > until they were satisfied that all the lisa's had been crushed beyond > > hope. But who knows, that could just be a story, and they may all be > > sitting in a pile somewhere waiting to be booted. > > > > -chris > > > > > > > > From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Nov 30 16:42:46 2001 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:23:57 2005 Subject: Is it a Lisa or Mac XL?! In-Reply-To: <3C077811.EC21ABDE@verizon.net> from "Ian Koller" at Nov 30, 1 07:14:09 am Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 724 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20011130/46a0aa91/attachment.ksh From vze2mnvr at verizon.net Fri Nov 30 06:28:21 2001 From: vze2mnvr at verizon.net (Ian Koller) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:23:57 2005 Subject: Is it a Lisa or Mac XL?! References: <3C0624DC.B58F16CE@home.com> Message-ID: <3C077B65.E506AA73@verizon.net> > No, but it smacks of that unique term "demilitarize" > Airman knocking holes in the bottom of 5 gal gas cans prior to stacking > them for auction ... very effective demilitarizion. I understand the need to "de-mil" gear like radios on reserved frequencies, crypto gear, weapons, etc. but you're saying they had to de-mil a "jerry can"? You sure it wasn't just a desire to justify scrapping it so they could get some new ones, or find a way to burn some budget money so next year's budget wouldn't be reduced. Both go on, but aren't the same thing as "de-milling" Craig Smith wrote: > > No, but it smacks of that unique term "demilitarize" that the US > military is so fond of! I've seen them removing electronics with a > cutting torch!! and just to make sure it's totaly unusable, dropping the > radios out of the planes cockpit onto the runway. > Or, my other favorite example .. at McDill AFB in Tampa, I watched an > Airman knocking holes in the bottom of 5 gal gas cans prior to stacking > them for auction ... very effective demilitarizion. > Craig > > Sellam Ismail wrote: > > > > On Wed, 28 Nov 2001, Chris wrote: > > > > > So by destroying them beyond hope... they remove them from the market > > > 100%. > > > > > > I personally think this is stupid, but hey, I don't run apple, and > > > they seem to have their own form of logic. > > > > This is not a practice unique to Apple. This is not even a practice > > unique to the computer industry. > > > > Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org From dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com Fri Nov 30 06:28:51 2001 From: dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com (Douglas Quebbeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:23:57 2005 Subject: List Really Does Look Like It's Been Breached Message-ID: <7A9BACCEF0171D4FB77019F5104CDD372259E5@jeffserver.tegjeff.com> Ok, I got plain-old SPAM (well, it was HTML, but seemingly free of virii) this morning with these headers: ============================================================ Received: from opal.tseinc.com ([209.83.143.19]) by jeffserver.tegjeff.com with SMTP (Microsoft Exchange Internet Mail Service Version 5.5.2653.13) id X671RYZ5; Fri, 30 Nov 2001 02:08:49 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by opal.tseinc.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id AAA05267 for classiccmp-classiccmp-org-outgoing; Fri, 30 Nov 2001 00:46:50 -0600 (CST) (envelope-from owner-classiccmp@classiccmp.org) X-Authentication-Warning: opal.tseinc.com: majordom set sender to owner-classiccmp@classiccmp.org using -f Received: from 3w-smtp-ad.korea.com ([211.109.1.114]) by opal.tseinc.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id AAA05262 for ; Fri, 30 Nov 2001 00:46:48 -0600 (CST) (envelope-from fortune@12ji.com) Received: from 3w-pop3-ai.korea.com ([172.31.1.12]) by 3w-smtp-ad.korea.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(5.0.2195.3651); Fri, 30 Nov 2001 15:45:17 +0900 Received: from 3w-pop3-ai.korea.com ([127.0.0.1]) by 3w-pop3-ai.korea.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(5.0.2195.3651); Fri, 30 Nov 2001 15:45:12 +0900 Received: from 211.109.1.13 by 3w-pop3-ai.korea.com (InterScan E-Mail VirusWall NT); Fri, 30 Nov 2001 15:44:54 +0900 Received: from 12ji.com ([211.186.123.108]) by 3w-pop3-ac.korea.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(5.0.2195.3651); Fri, 30 Nov 2001 15:44:03 +0900 Message-ID: <3222855-220011153063355370@12ji.com> X-EM-Version: 6, 0, 1, 0 X-EM-Registration: #00F06206106618006920 X-Priority: 3 To: "12ji" From: "Anne Collins" Subject: Your fortune of the week Date: Fri, 30 Nov 2001 15:33:55 +0900 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="------------InterScan_NT_MIME_Boundary" X-OriginalArrivalTime: 30 Nov 2001 06:44:03.0482 (UTC) FILETIME=[666A47A0:01C1796A] Sender: owner-classiccmp@classiccmp.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org --------------InterScan_NT_MIME_Boundary Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8" ------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" ------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8 Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable ------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8-- ============================================================ We need a moderation mechanism of some kind. The newsgroup alt.sysadmin.recovery requires the presence of a special header in order for the post to appear. Can we do that for the list, or will the SPAMbots just walk around that Maginot line? -dq From dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com Fri Nov 30 06:30:48 2001 From: dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com (Douglas Quebbeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:23:57 2005 Subject: Macintosh Message-ID: <7A9BACCEF0171D4FB77019F5104CDD372259E6@jeffserver.tegjeff.com> > Douglas Quebbeman skrev: > > >> Could someone tell me what the last version of Macintosh System to run on > >> 68K machines was? Where can I get a copy? > > >That would be System 6.0.8 > > Such utter rubbish. Version 8 was the last major release for 68k machines, > though it usually would only install on '040 machines. The latency to Holland is even worse than thw camel-train... -dq From rigdonj at intellistar.net Fri Nov 30 08:26:58 2001 From: rigdonj at intellistar.net (Joe) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:23:57 2005 Subject: Up for Grabs: Intel ICE boxs and pods Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20011130092658.007af640@mailhost.intellistar.net> I found two large white Intel boxs yesterday. They're not labeled but I think they're the old Intel ICE boxs. There's also two pods with them, one is for a iAPX 186 an the other is for an iAPX 286 (80186 CPU and 80286 CPU for the ones of you that don't speak Intel). The boxs are about 18" wide x 24" deep x 12" high. They look complete and intact. I'm sure the owner has no idea what they are and would sell them cheap ($20?-$40?). They're located on the east side of Orlando. If anyone wants them contqct me and I'll point you to them. But I DO NOT have the room to store them or the time to ship them. I've been giving and throwing away my own stuff due to lack of room so don't ask me to yours. If you want them you'll have to come get them or make arrnagements for someone else to store/ship them to you. Joe From dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com Fri Nov 30 10:13:50 2001 From: dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com (Douglas Quebbeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:23:57 2005 Subject: Up for Grabs: Intel ICE boxs and pods Message-ID: <7A9BACCEF0171D4FB77019F5104CDD372259EE@jeffserver.tegjeff.com> > I found two large white Intel boxs yesterday. They're not labeled but I > think they're the old Intel ICE boxs. There's also two pods with them, one > is for a iAPX 186 an the other is for an iAPX 286 (80186 CPU and 80286 CPU > for the ones of you that don't speak Intel). This brings up an interesting piece of trivia... Has anyone ever seen one of the prototype iAPX386 chips? The iAPX386 was what would have been sold as the 80386, but the prelim documents I've got don't describe the virtual 8086 mode that was present in the shipped 80386 chips. The name change happened during the lawsuit with AMD. Under a technology swap agreement, Intel should have forwarded the info on the 386 to AMD. But ultimately, AMD had to clean-room engineer their 386 clone chip. I always thought that Intel changed the name from the iAPX line to what was actually the part number (i.e. the iAPX286 had the part number 80286), and also made slight changes to the feature set, just for the purpose of being able to say to AMD "well, we would give you the iAPX386, but we decided not to produce it." -dq From Adrian.Graham at corporatemicrosystems.com Fri Nov 30 11:13:33 2001 From: Adrian.Graham at corporatemicrosystems.com (Adrian Graham) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:23:57 2005 Subject: Antron MST300 (was:RE: Up for Grabs: Intel ICE boxs and pods) Message-ID: <556916EBC364D511826400508B9A1ADE021911@cmlpdc.corporatemicrosystems.com> Speaking of chip testers has anyone come across the Antron company and their testing equipment? Antron are still going and still selling test kit to the likes of Compaq, but since they didn't reply to my email I'm assuming they had no old documentation. Basically the MST300 is a 386 based PC with 2 extra ISA cards that interface with the testing 'pods'. I've got pods for the 8086, 80286, 80386SX and DX, Moto 68K and I'm still not sure what they were supposed to be testing! I'll post pix on Binary Dinosaurs when I get 'em taken :) -- Adrian Graham, Corporate Microsystems Ltd e: adrian.graham@corporatemicrosystems.com w: www.corporatemicrosystems.com w2: www.binarydinosaurs.co.uk (Online Computer Museum) From rigdonj at intellistar.net Fri Nov 30 12:54:26 2001 From: rigdonj at intellistar.net (Joe) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:23:57 2005 Subject: Antron MST300 (was:RE: Up for Grabs: Intel ICE boxs and pods) In-Reply-To: <556916EBC364D511826400508B9A1ADE021911@cmlpdc.corporatemic rosystems.com> Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20011130135426.007ae100@mailhost.intellistar.net> If you mean Atron then yes I've heard of them. if fact, I was just searching for info on them this morning. I have two full length IBM PC style cards that are both marked "Atron", one plugs into an 8 bit ISA slot and the other plugs into a 16-bit ISA slot. The cards have a ribbon cable that connects them together at the top. One is marked "Master Break Trace" and the other is marked "Slave Break Trace". (looks like they're for an emulator). Both boards have a large male 3U type connector on the outside. I've posted a picture at . FWIW I pulled these out of an old 286 Compaq Deskpro. I wanted to get the drive but it was already gone :-( Joe At 05:13 PM 11/30/01 -0000, you wrote: >Speaking of chip testers has anyone come across the Antron company and their >testing equipment? Antron are still going and still selling test kit to the >likes of Compaq, but since they didn't reply to my email I'm assuming they >had no old documentation. > >Basically the MST300 is a 386 based PC with 2 extra ISA cards that interface >with the testing 'pods'. I've got pods for the 8086, 80286, 80386SX and DX, >Moto 68K and I'm still not sure what they were supposed to be testing! > >I'll post pix on Binary Dinosaurs when I get 'em taken :) > >-- >Adrian Graham, Corporate Microsystems Ltd >e: adrian.graham@corporatemicrosystems.com >w: www.corporatemicrosystems.com >w2: www.binarydinosaurs.co.uk (Online Computer Museum) > From Innfogra at aol.com Fri Nov 30 11:17:03 2001 From: Innfogra at aol.com (Innfogra@aol.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:23:57 2005 Subject: Scrapping hardware to get it off the book Message-ID: <169.4d77135.2939190f@aol.com> In a message dated 11/30/01 6:20:17 AM Pacific Standard Time, rigdonj@intellistar.net writes: > must have cost them 50 times that to ship them back from Germany The BIIN computers we scrapped were originally air freighted from Germany. We opend the crates and took them apart. They were brand new, but Intel and Siemens didn't want them out there. This was a certified destruction contract otherwise I would have kept one. I already had all the SW. I bet the cost to scrap ratio was more like 5000 to 1. Siemens lost a bunch of money on that project. (Intel owned 5% and Siemens 95%.) Paxton Astoria, OR -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20011130/bbc11247/attachment.html From rigdonj at intellistar.net Fri Nov 30 12:56:21 2001 From: rigdonj at intellistar.net (Joe) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:23:57 2005 Subject: Scrapping hardware to get it off the book In-Reply-To: <169.4d77135.2939190f@aol.com> Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20011130135621.007b2500@mailhost.intellistar.net> Sounds familar. Siemens was the company that shipped the disks back to the US from Germany! Joe At 12:17 PM 11/30/01 EST, you wrote: >In a message dated 11/30/01 6:20:17 AM Pacific Standard Time, >rigdonj@intellistar.net writes: > > > must have cost them 50 times that to ship them back from Germany > > > The BIIN computers we scrapped were originally air freighted from Germany. >We opend the crates and took them apart. They were brand new, but Intel and >Siemens didn't want them out there. This was a certified destruction >contract otherwise I would have kept one. I already had all the SW. I bet >the cost to scrap ratio was more like 5000 to 1. Siemens lost a bunch of >money on that project. (Intel owned 5% and Siemens 95%.) > > Paxton > Astoria, OR From CLeyson at aol.com Fri Nov 30 12:34:26 2001 From: CLeyson at aol.com (CLeyson@aol.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:23:57 2005 Subject: Wireless World Digital Computer - 1967 Message-ID: <66.183c5548.29392b32@aol.com> Hans Thanks for the WW reference. I must admit I had got the PE Digical calculator confused with another WW article also by B.Crank. Can't remember the title but it was a very simple logic analyzer using a scope as a hex display. I remember it used Ferranti DTL chips. Also remember reading the PE Digical calculator articles - I can still picture the calculator - a four function desk top machine full of TTL ! Chris Leyson -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20011130/c0d1027e/attachment.html From dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com Fri Nov 30 13:48:20 2001 From: dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com (Douglas Quebbeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:23:57 2005 Subject: Antron MST300 (was:RE: Up for Grabs: Intel ICE boxs and pods ) Message-ID: <7A9BACCEF0171D4FB77019F5104CDD372259F5@jeffserver.tegjeff.com> > If you mean Atron then yes I've heard of them. if fact, I was just > searching for info on them this morning. I have two full length IBM PC > style cards that are both marked "Atron", one plugs into an 8 bit ISA slot > and the other plugs into a 16-bit ISA slot. The cards have a ribbon cable > that connects them together at the top. One is marked "Master Break Trace" > and the other is marked "Slave Break Trace". (looks like they're for an > emulator). Both boards have a large male 3U type connector on the outside. This looks like a later version of the Atron Debugger I used in a Zenith Z-150 (I still have the Zenith). It had its own debugger software, it plugged into an available slot, had a ribbon cable that plugged into the 8088, and a place to put the 8088 you removed from the CPU board (the 8088 was on a separate CPU board in the Zenith). I'll have to go bug my former employer (15 year ago) and see if he still has it and wants to let go of it, along with perhaps the Zilog REO Development System and the IMSAI 8080 he had...). -dq From DAW at yalepress3.unipress.yale.edu Fri Nov 30 14:43:13 2001 From: DAW at yalepress3.unipress.yale.edu (David Woyciesjes) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:23:57 2005 Subject: Scrap hardware finds Message-ID: <9011A52E011ED311B4280004AC1BA6150146730B@yalepress3.unipress.yale.edu> Hey, I might be interested in the Mac stuff too. Maybe I'll ask Dan Sch.... to hot-rod it for me ;) --- David A Woyciesjes --- C & IS Support Specialist --- Yale University Press --- mailto:david.woyciesjes@yale.edu --- (203) 432-0953 --- ICQ # - 905818 ! -----Original Message----- ! From: Chris [mailto:mythtech@Mac.com] ! Sent: Friday, November 30, 2001 3:02 PM ! To: Classic Computer ! Subject: RE: Scrapping hardware to get it off the books (RE: Is it a ! Lisa or Mac XL?!) ! ! ! >I'll not likely ! >mention the plethora of Apple // and Mac stuff, since ! >it's the same stuff I hear about being available everywhere. ! ! If you could give a cursory mention (at least to me) about ! the gist of ! the stuff, that would be great. (I don't expect a full mention, but ! concepts like "there were some classic Macs there, and some ! boards for ! Apple IIs that look like serial cards"). ! ! Just so I have an idea, as it seems, around here, no one has ! old Apple or ! Mac parts (the machines are available out the ass, but the extras are ! slim pickings). ! ! Thanks ! ! -chris ! ! ! From vcf at vintage.org Fri Nov 30 17:50:55 2001 From: vcf at vintage.org (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:23:57 2005 Subject: Looking for CPT 9000 word processor Message-ID: I am looking for a CPT 9000 word processor, circa 1988. It has a page display and is based on an Intel 80286. I specifically need the monitor and video card, which is a proprietary 16-bit deal, but will take a complete system if need be. Please contact me privately if you've got one to sell or know where one might be. $50 finders fee! Thanks! Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org * Old computing resources for business and academia at www.VintageTech.com * From spectre at stockholm.ptloma.edu Fri Nov 30 18:58:13 2001 From: spectre at stockholm.ptloma.edu (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:23:57 2005 Subject: Scrapping hardware to get it off the books (RE: Is it a Lisa or Mac XL?!) In-Reply-To: <7A9BACCEF0171D4FB77019F5104CDD372259F7@jeffserver.tegjeff.com> from Douglas Quebbeman at "Nov 30, 1 03:48:46 pm" Message-ID: <200112010058.QAA08734@stockholm.ptloma.edu> > I should mention that I'm heavily laden with Macs, having > been the repository of all the ones we used to have here > at our firm. Whatcha need? I could spare at least one or > more of the following: > > Quadra 650 How much were you interested in for a Q650? What's in it? -- ----------------------------- personal page: http://www.armory.com/~spectre/ -- Cameron Kaiser, Point Loma Nazarene University * ckaiser@stockholm.ptloma.edu -- God is Real, unless declared Integer. -- Stan Sieler ----------------------- From gehrich at tampabay.rr.com Fri Nov 30 15:22:58 2001 From: gehrich at tampabay.rr.com (Gene Ehrich) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:23:57 2005 Subject: Off Topic - stereo to PC question In-Reply-To: <9011A52E011ED311B4280004AC1BA6150146730B@yalepress3.unipre ss.yale.edu> Message-ID: <4.3.2.7.2.20011130162018.00b04810@pop3.norton.antivirus> Can anybody tell me how to attach my stereo to my PC so that I can transfer from Cassette to CD-R or hard-drive. From DAW at yalepress3.unipress.yale.edu Fri Nov 30 15:59:02 2001 From: DAW at yalepress3.unipress.yale.edu (David Woyciesjes) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:23:58 2005 Subject: Off Topic - stereo to PC question Message-ID: <9011A52E011ED311B4280004AC1BA6150146730D@yalepress3.unipress.yale.edu> It all depends on whether or not the soundcard in your PC has a line-input connector. If it only has a mic input, you might get away with connecting to that, but be careful about the levels... --- David A Woyciesjes --- C & IS Support Specialist --- Yale University Press --- mailto:david.woyciesjes@yale.edu --- (203) 432-0953 --- ICQ # - 905818 ! -----Original Message----- ! From: Gene Ehrich [mailto:gehrich@tampabay.rr.com] ! Sent: Friday, November 30, 2001 4:23 PM ! To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org ! Subject: Off Topic - stereo to PC question ! ! ! Can anybody tell me how to attach my stereo to my PC so that ! I can transfer ! from Cassette to CD-R or hard-drive. ! From pgentil1 at twcny.rr.com Fri Nov 30 16:03:34 2001 From: pgentil1 at twcny.rr.com (philip gentile) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:23:58 2005 Subject: Off Topic - stereo to PC question References: <4.3.2.7.2.20011130162018.00b04810@pop3.norton.antivirus> Message-ID: <012701c179ea$dee43350$ee7ca118@cheese> hi - teh best way would be to run the "line outputs" from your amp to the "line inputs" on your pc sound card. most home grade amps don't have line outputs. if you can hadnle some distortion, you can run speaker outputs into the "line input" on your pc sound card. you would end up with a better recording if you used a small matching transformer, such as an 8 ohm to 1k or so, between the speaker output and line input to at least try to come close to the "line input" input impedance. you will need two transformers to do this. the "line input" on pc sounds are 1/8" stereo jacks that you can buy at radio shack. does this help ? philip j gentile 1035 smith ridge road bridgeport, ny 13030 315.476.7859 voice 315.476.7865 fax ----- Original Message ----- From: "Gene Ehrich" To: Sent: Friday, November 30, 2001 4:22 PM Subject: Off Topic - stereo to PC question > Can anybody tell me how to attach my stereo to my PC so that I can transfer > from Cassette to CD-R or hard-drive. > > From csmith at amdocs.com Fri Nov 30 16:03:55 2001 From: csmith at amdocs.com (Christopher Smith) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:23:58 2005 Subject: Off Topic - stereo to PC question Message-ID: <3B55D7F383B0D31197D9009027541CBF1170DF0B@cmiexch1.cmi.itds.com> I suppose you've tried connecting the line out on the stereo to the line in on the peesee? :) That is the normal way ;) Seriously, it's not difficult. The cable should look something like this: -)......................... |_--------------------- ... ..|....>--- . |____| -)..................... | |_--------------------- Where -) is an RCA plug, the outer shield on the plug is ground, and the pin is signal. >--- is a 1/4 inch headphone style plug. The bottom-most segment is ground, and the top two are signal, I think. Connect each RCA signal wire to its own signal segment on the 1/4" plug, and the grounds to the ground. This is straight from memory, but I think that's the way it works. Sorry I can't tell you which segment to use for left and which for right. You should also be able to buy prefabricated cables at radio shack or somewhere if you like. Chris Christopher Smith, Perl Developer Amdocs - Champaign, IL /usr/bin/perl -e ' print((~"\x95\xc4\xe3"^"Just Another Perl Hacker.")."\x08!\n"); ' > -----Original Message----- > From: Gene Ehrich [mailto:gehrich@tampabay.rr.com] > Sent: Friday, November 30, 2001 3:23 PM > To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org > Subject: Off Topic - stereo to PC question > > > Can anybody tell me how to attach my stereo to my PC so that > I can transfer > from Cassette to CD-R or hard-drive. > From healyzh at aracnet.com Fri Nov 30 16:36:30 2001 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:23:58 2005 Subject: Off Topic - stereo to PC question In-Reply-To: from "Gene Ehrich" at Nov 30, 2001 04:22:58 PM Message-ID: <200111302236.fAUMaUp11081@shell1.aracnet.com> > Can anybody tell me how to attach my stereo to my PC so that I can transfer > from Cassette to CD-R or hard-drive. A couple of us on the list have Mac's that are setup as "Digital Audio Workstations" that can do this. Basically you need a good soundcard and some good software. Don't mess with the free junk that ships with the Adaptec CD burning software, it's just that, junk! For software I'd start by looking at Arboretum RayGun at http://www.arboretum.com/, they've got a demo you can download. I use a combination of RayGun and Bias Peak on a Echo Products Darla24 soundcard. I've dedicated my old PowerMac 8500/180 to this, though hopefully one of these days I'll be able to move it to a souped up 9500 or 9600. There are simular solutions for Windows based PC's. Zane From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Fri Nov 30 17:26:33 2001 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (Ben Franchuk) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:23:58 2005 Subject: History of Computing exam question References: Message-ID: <3C0815A9.46F69425@jetnet.ab.ca> Tony Duell wrote: > > > > > Tony Duell wrote: > > rganised, and doubtless some of the > > > > > > [1] The PE Digical may be one of the first hobbyist calculators > > > (published 1972, all built from TTL chips), but it wasn't programmable. > > > Stick it on the list if you like. > > > > Got more details??? > > Sure, I've got all ten articles describing it. I think I posted rough > descriptions of the contents of each article to Classiccmp a couple of > years back. > > It was a 4 function desktop calculator. Display was those 7 segment > filament displays (thin filaments forming the segments, mounted in an > evacuated 'bulb'). About 10 digits, I think. It displayed -ve numbers in > 9's compliment notation (!). > > The 'data path' was TTL ICs on plug-in cards. It was digit-serial, and > did multiplication/division by shifting by digits and then repeated > addition/subtraction for each digit. > > The control section was a diode matrix ROM on a large piece of stripboard > in the bottom of the machine. Controlled by yet more TTL. > > 'PE', btw was the UK magazine 'Practical Electronics'. > > -tony While I don't expect to find DTL,RTL or even TTL nowadays you can still get the 7 segment filament displays. http://www.sphere.bc.ca/test/nixies.html#catalog -- Ben Franchuk --- Pre-historic Cpu's -- www.jetnet.ab.ca/users/bfranchuk/index.html From lance at costanzo.net Fri Nov 30 20:53:03 2001 From: lance at costanzo.net (Lance Costanzo) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:23:58 2005 Subject: History of Computing exam question Message-ID: <3.0.32.20011130185302.007e1e90@costanzo.net> At 12:08 PM 11/30/01 -0600, you wrote: >I would add: HP2000 timeshare system..widely used, often provided the >first exposure to computers that got many of us started in the field. My first intro to "real" computers: IBM's ITF (interactive terminal facility) timeshare system that ran on the 360/370 mainframes. Not widely used (I heard it was 10 installations worldwide), but must have been a huge development effort on the part of IBM. A scaled down locked down (but I did figure out how to crash it) TSO with Basic and PL/I programming langs. Changed my life, possibly for the worse, 25+ years ago. Hmm... Others I'd put on the list from personal experience: IBM/360 Early HP3000 (series I,II,III) PDP-11 Apple II IBM PC 5150 From cmurillo at emtelsa.multi.net.co Fri Nov 30 22:55:22 2001 From: cmurillo at emtelsa.multi.net.co (Carlos Murillo) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:23:58 2005 Subject: History of Computing exam question In-Reply-To: <7A9BACCEF0171D4FB77019F5104CDD372259F3@jeffserver.tegjeff. com> Message-ID: <3.0.2.32.20011130235522.018e7b60@obregon.multi.net.co> At 02:07 PM 11/30/01 -0500, you wrote: >> I would add: HP2000 timeshare system..widely used, often provided the >> first exposure to computers that got many of us started in the field. > >I *think* I played my first computer game on the HP2000 >(said game paper tape currently being in Jay West's hands >for his HP2000). >-dq Talk about those times... I remember that the ibm 4381 system that we used at the time received batch jobs from an apple-II !!!! network! We would write progams using the UCSD pascal editor and then we could submit them for batch processing (including those dreaded OS360 jcl commands, with batch job data indicated by GO SYSIN specs.. argghh). No wonder I fell in love with UX when I first had access to it (ca. 1987). So much simpler and logical... ... but I've grown to respect VMS even if I have lots to learn about it. -------------------------------------------------------------- Carlos E. Murillo-Sanchez carlos_murillo@nospammers.ieee.org From mbbrutman at magnaspeed.net Fri Nov 30 21:29:33 2001 From: mbbrutman at magnaspeed.net (Michael B. Brutman) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:23:58 2005 Subject: Need "PC Mouse" driver for PCjr .. Message-ID: <3C084E9D.90103@magnaspeed.net> I have recently acquired a "PCjr Mouse" by Mouse Systems, and I am looking for a device driver for it. The mouse looks to be a slightly modified version of the "PC Mouse". The neat thing is that it is an optical mouse. :-) The standard MS Mouse driver doesn't find the mouse. The "CuteMouse 1.8" driver hangs the machine up. An old (1992) Mouse Systems driver hangs the machine up too. The Colorpaint cartridge works with the mouse without a driver, so at least I know the mouse works. Do I even need a driver? I imagine older software doesn't need a driver, but newer software would. Then again, on a machine this old I don't think I have much of a problem. I'd like to have a working driver that recognizes the mouse, just in case. Thanks, Mike From mythtech at Mac.com Fri Nov 30 22:25:09 2001 From: mythtech at Mac.com (Chris) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:23:58 2005 Subject: Need "PC Mouse" driver for PCjr .. Message-ID: <200112010425.WAA23402@opal.tseinc.com> >The mouse looks to be a slightly >modified version of the "PC Mouse". The neat thing is that it is an >optical mouse. :-) I had an optical mouse way back when with my Mac Plus... I bought it as a replacement for a broken mouse. I think it was made by A+ At the time, I hated it, you needed a special mouse pad for it to work, and it wasn't as accurate as the Mac Plus mouse, which made it even harder to draw. Just one of those things that I found interesting now that optical mice are all the rage. -chris From fdebros at verizon.net Fri Nov 30 21:59:52 2001 From: fdebros at verizon.net (Fred deBros) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:23:58 2005 Subject: Sun Optical mouse pad anyone? In-Reply-To: <00b301c13196$5933ffc0$aab1ff0a@cvendel> Message-ID: <000001c17a1c$a1b32630$6501a8c0@fred> OK, so there are type 4 (UV plus vis light) and type 5 (UV only) sun optical mice. Type 4 mice require a different optical pad than type 5. Type 4 mice are tricky because they have to be adjusted to the grid (parallel vs perpendicular) in order to work correctly. There is a ps file that prints the type 4 mouse pad grid on paper. Do I have to laminate that print, or print it on a transparency and glue that onto an aluminum foil or print it onto a reflective foil? Because my printed pad on plain paper don't work with type 4 mice. Sniff. I wonder why I find so many optical mice in the garbage here. Any advice? Fred From mcguire at neurotica.com Fri Nov 30 22:10:37 2001 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:23:58 2005 Subject: Sun Optical mouse pad anyone? In-Reply-To: Sun Optical mouse pad anyone? (Fred deBros) References: <00b301c13196$5933ffc0$aab1ff0a@cvendel> <000001c17a1c$a1b32630$6501a8c0@fred> Message-ID: <15368.22589.968837.281650@phaduka.neurotica.com> On November 30, Fred deBros wrote: > OK, so there are type 4 (UV plus vis light) and type 5 (UV only) sun > optical mice. You mean IR, not UV... > Type 4 mice require a different optical pad than type 5. > Type 4 mice are tricky because they have to be adjusted to the grid > (parallel vs perpendicular) in order to work correctly. > There is a ps file that prints the type 4 mouse pad grid on paper. > Do I have to laminate that print, or print it on a transparency and glue > that onto an aluminum foil or print it onto a reflective foil? > > Because my printed pad on plain paper don't work with type 4 mice. > > Sniff. I wonder why I find so many optical mice in the garbage here. I've used that ps file with Type 3 mice, and plain paper worked fine. Not sure what's up with the Type 4 mice. -Dave -- Dave McGuire St. Petersburg, FL From allain at panix.com Fri Nov 30 22:17:43 2001 From: allain at panix.com (John Allain) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:23:58 2005 Subject: Off Topic - stereo to PC question References: <4.3.2.7.2.20011130162018.00b04810@pop3.norton.antivirus> Message-ID: <006d01c17a1f$204a4e40$21fe54a6@ibm23xhr06> > Can anybody tell me how to attach my stereo to my PC so that > I can transfer from Cassette to CD-R or hard-drive. About being careful with those level controls... Amazing** to me was the way that MS engineered the volume control. On W98 (?95,?ME) are controls labelled for, among others, Line-In, Microphone, and Master Volume. These Do Not effect recording. There's a secret second control for that. Say Volume Control>Options>Properties>Recording. Of course this causes you to lose your playback level control. What they were thinking I don't know and I don't care. John A. **Horrified disbelief is more like it. From donm at cts.com Fri Nov 30 22:52:45 2001 From: donm at cts.com (Don Maslin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:23:58 2005 Subject: Ampro Littleboard problems.. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Fri, 30 Nov 2001, Russ Blakeman wrote: > The dark grey Teac units were mostly found in the Sanyo silver units, the > MBC-55x series and I needed one last year and it took forever to locate what > I needed. I took a blackfaced unit and used it but swapped some odd parts > for a worthless grey faced unit to use the lever and faceplate from. Two > drives combined equaled a good drive, spare black parts and one DOA in the > scrap barrel. What are the actual differences betwixt the FD-54B and the FD-55B? From donm at cts.com Fri Nov 30 23:07:50 2001 From: donm at cts.com (Don Maslin) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:23:58 2005 Subject: Central Point Option Board (earlier non-ASIC version) chips In-Reply-To: <3CBB48EE@mail.totalise.co.uk> Message-ID: On Thu, 29 Nov 2001, Mark Knibbs wrote: > Hi, > > This is quite urgent. > > Can someone who has the earlier version of the Central Point Option Board > (also known as Copy II PC Option Board) please type up the part numbers of > all chips on the card? Or scan the card at a decent resolution so all chip > markings are legible. One assumes that you are referring to the Copyright 1986 units which lack the 64-pin proprietary chip as contrasted with the Copyright 1987 units which contained it. Okay, starting at top-left hand and reading horizontally, they are as follow: HD74LS112P HD74LS11P HD74LS153P DM74LS163AN SN74SO4N SN74LS393N SN74LS174 SN74LS163AN SN74LS174N HD74LS86P HD74LS163P SN7433N SN74LS174N HD74LS273P HD74LS14P HD74LS367AP HD74LS194AP HD74LS374P SN74LS133N HD74LS32P HD74LS194AP HD74LS374P Have fun! - don > I want to get datasheets for as many of the ICs on the card as possible. > Assuming some are not just simple TTL chips, the best place to look for these > would be the FreeTradeZone web site. As mentioned a few days ago, that will no > longer be accessible for free in a few days time. > > (I don't have an older Option Board yet. I want to get info on the ICs it uses > for a possible future reverse-engineering effort, to figure out how the card > works, and allow low-level disk-imaging software to be written.) > > > -- Mark > > From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Nov 30 17:09:53 2001 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:23:58 2005 Subject: Off Topic - stereo to PC question In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.2.20011130162018.00b04810@pop3.norton.antivirus> from "Gene Ehrich" at Nov 30, 1 04:22:58 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 2602 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20011130/eeb1766f/attachment.ksh From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Fri Nov 30 20:46:01 2001 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (Ben Franchuk) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:23:59 2005 Subject: PDP-8/E questions References: <3C0893E6.4090906@acm.org> Message-ID: <3C084469.C77BA87D@jetnet.ab.ca> Mike Cruse wrote: > > For one of my 8/e machines I did the led conversion since I didn't have > any bulbs > available. I didn't know where to get them either. Anyway, I used > different colors > for the EMA, MEMORY ADDRESS, AC/STATUS... and RUN indicators. I can > always switch them back but it does look kind of cool in amber, red, > green and blue. > > Mike What no photo! :) -- Ben Franchuk --- Pre-historic Cpu's -- www.jetnet.ab.ca/users/bfranchuk/index.html From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Fri Nov 30 21:21:50 2001 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (Ben Franchuk) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:24:04 2005 Subject: History of Computing exam question References: Message-ID: <3C084CCE.B901D2E@jetnet.ab.ca> "Fred Cisin (XenoSoft)" wrote: > > Is this supposed to be which ones were most historically significant, or > WHICH ONES YOU LIKE?? > > Imagine a world history that leaves out all mention of Hitler. Well it would be a lot thinner! It is hard to say what you consider significant and from what country you are from. One other item neglected is software ( hoping windows don't crash while typing this) too. Ben Franchuk --- Pre-historic Cpu's -- www.jetnet.ab.ca/users/bfranchuk/index.html From jss at subatomix.com Thu Nov 1 00:11:39 2001 From: jss at subatomix.com (Jeffrey S. Sharp) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:15 2005 Subject: Ecomstation.org (was Re: An Organization (was: Do we have a VAX organization?)) In-Reply-To: <411.705T850T974599optimus@canit.se> Message-ID: <20011031235522.G75885-100000@lepton.subatomix.com> On 1 Nov 2001, Iggy Drougge wrote: > Jeff, and the other participants in the list, is it really necessary to quote > 250 lines to add three of your own? And on the top, at that. Uh, have you ever *read* any of my messages? I pay *particular* attention to quoting only what is needed to establish context, and I put my reply *below* the quoted text. What have you been smoking, man? This flame war has been done before. I'm only participating here because I was individually lambasted. Methinks IHBT... -- Jeffrey S. Sharp jss@subatomix.com From erd_6502 at yahoo.com Thu Nov 1 00:20:31 2001 From: erd_6502 at yahoo.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:17 2005 Subject: PDP-11/70s (was Re: value of classic DEC machines?) In-Reply-To: <3BDB2353.672DAF77@ecubics.com> Message-ID: <20011101062031.55266.qmail@web20103.mail.yahoo.com> --- emanuel stiebler wrote: > Heinz Wolter wrote: > > > > At least two commercial DEC restorers I know basically scrap > > the 70's (since "no one wants them" - which I read "no one wants > > to pay for them" ) or are forced to remove them along with more > > interesting stuff as part of the deal (and scrap them later;) > > Should someone start an 11/70 orphanage for all those > > unwanted machines? > > If any 11/70 shows up in colorado, I'll be more than happy to pick it up > ... I already have a pair. What I'm looking for is an inexpensive toggle- switch console or two - mine both have the RDM console. Boring. I've mentioned them before; they were two of a former set of 5 RSTS/E PDPs at Bordon, Inc. (you know, the guys that made milk and glue and all that sort of stuff). The CPUs are in their own racks, with a memory cabinet each, plus a wad of Fuji Eagles on SI9900 controllers. -ethan __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Make a great connection at Yahoo! Personals. http://personals.yahoo.com From erd_6502 at yahoo.com Thu Nov 1 00:23:26 2001 From: erd_6502 at yahoo.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:17 2005 Subject: Looking for DECNA In-Reply-To: <200110252011.f9PKBhP04312@narnia.int.dittman.net> Message-ID: <20011101062326.54344.qmail@web20108.mail.yahoo.com> --- Eric Dittman wrote: > I'm still looking for a DECNA for a Pro350/Pro380. I thought I'd > ask again to see if anyone has an extra. Ditto. Got a pile of Pros. Got RT-11, P/OS and Venix. Can now get 2.9BSD. Got no Ethernet. :-( -ethan __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Make a great connection at Yahoo! Personals. http://personals.yahoo.com From erd_6502 at yahoo.com Thu Nov 1 00:26:44 2001 From: erd_6502 at yahoo.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:17 2005 Subject: value of classic DEC machines? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20011101062644.89183.qmail@web20102.mail.yahoo.com> --- Sellam Ismail wrote: > I'm sure everyone here at least once heard the words, "...but I can get > $X for it on eBay". I heard that three years ago when I tried to haggle for a copy of David Ahl's BASIC Games book at the Dayton Hamvention. They guy said "I can get $50 for it..." I asked him if he could, what he was doing at Dayton and why didn't he just sell it on eBay in the first place. Needless to say, the negotiations did not proceed smoothly. ;-) -ethan __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Make a great connection at Yahoo! Personals. http://personals.yahoo.com From cmcmanis at mcmanis.com Thu Nov 1 00:32:56 2001 From: cmcmanis at mcmanis.com (Chuck McManis) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:17 2005 Subject: Ecomstation.org (was Re: An Organization (was: Do we have a VAX organization?)) In-Reply-To: <20011031235522.G75885-100000@lepton.subatomix.com> References: <411.705T850T974599optimus@canit.se> Message-ID: <5.0.0.25.2.20011031223022.025fd4c0@209.185.79.193> The "when from recipient transfer to trash" filter works well in this type of case if your mailer can handle it, but I still haven't figured out how to tell Eudora to capture all the messages in a thread started by a particular email address and delete them. If anyone has a suggestion on how to do that it would be helpful. --Chuck At 12:11 AM 11/1/01 -0600, Jeff Sharp wrote: >This flame war has been done before. I'm only participating here because >I was individually lambasted. Methinks IHBT... From jss at subatomix.com Thu Nov 1 00:53:13 2001 From: jss at subatomix.com (Jeffrey S. Sharp) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:17 2005 Subject: PDP-11/70s (was Re: value of classic DEC machines?) In-Reply-To: <20011101062031.55266.qmail@web20103.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20011101005137.L75885-100000@lepton.subatomix.com> On Wed, 31 Oct 2001, Ethan Dicks wrote: > > If any 11/70 shows up in colorado [...] > > I already have a pair. Someday, I too will be able to say that... -- Jeffrey S. Sharp jss@subatomix.com From mhstein at usa.net Thu Nov 1 02:23:31 2001 From: mhstein at usa.net (M H Stein) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:17 2005 Subject: hard-sector 5 1/4 disk Message-ID: <01C16285.5EDB7E60@mse-d03> Now that you jog the old grey cells, of course you're right; in fact, the manual states "You should make sure that you buy diskettes for SOFT SECTORED FORMAT (in caps!)... What confused my recollection was that I remembered making a few bucks selling hard-sectored diskettes to PET dealers when the FDDs first came out, but now that I think back it was probably because they were cheap & we'd discovered that they'd work, not because they were required. I did think that the high-density drives used at least one index hole, but no, just looked inside the 8050 and no sensors; wrong again (and how many times have I ranted to myself that people who don't know what they're talking about should keep their mouth shut). In the words of the immortal Emily Latella (?) on SNL: never mind... m ---------------Original message----------------- Date: Tue, 30 Oct 2001 18:37:45 -0800 (PST) From: "Fred Cisin (XenoSoft)" Subject: Re: hard-sector 5 1/4 disk > Commodore, for one, on their older low density drives. Commodore, like Apple, was COMPLETELY soft-sector - it ignored the index pulse COMPLETELY, and therefore would work with hard-sector, soft-sector, upside down (with write enable notch), ... From mrbill at mrbill.net Thu Nov 1 03:04:22 2001 From: mrbill at mrbill.net (Bill Bradford) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:17 2005 Subject: DEC 9642 enclosure? Message-ID: <20011101030421.D28646@mrbill.net> Anybody know what a DEC H9642 enclosure looks like or how big? The NetBSD hardware reference says its two BA23s... but I need to know if I can fit it into the back of a Kia Sportage. Pictures, anyone? Given that, anybody want one (its a MicroVAX II) in the Austin area? Free, you just have to come pick it up. I'm being given this as a "gotta take this too" in addition to a PDP 11/53... and I dont have room for it in the garage, nor do I have time to mess with it right now... Bill -- Bill Bradford mrbill@mrbill.net Austin, TX From jhellige at earthlink.net Thu Nov 1 04:02:35 2001 From: jhellige at earthlink.net (Jeff Hellige) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:17 2005 Subject: VLB SCSI? In-Reply-To: <3BE0D6C8.8F88ADA4@internet1.net> References: <740.705T1500T715541optimus@canit.se> <3BE0D6C8.8F88ADA4@internet1.net> Message-ID: >They are better than Plug an Play. PnP doesn't let you choose any >settings. Not having jumpers is a nice way to have it too. Plus not >all PS/2s use the referance partition (IML). Some like my 8573-121 use a reference disk instead. Anytime you add or remove a board you use the setup disk to copy the appropriate ADF file to that disk and it sets it up. I think it's a bit easier to manage than the reference partition. Jeff -- Home of the TRS-80 Model 2000 FAQ File http://www.cchaven.com http://www.geocities.com/siliconvalley/lakes/6757 From Antonio.Carlini at riverstonenet.com Thu Nov 1 04:16:54 2001 From: Antonio.Carlini at riverstonenet.com (Carlini, Antonio) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:18 2005 Subject: DEC 9642 enclosure? Message-ID: <3820E2042B6ED5118DC200D0B78EDC470661EA@exc-reo1> > Anybody know what a DEC H9642 enclosure looks like or how big? The > NetBSD hardware reference says its two BA23s... but I need to know if > I can fit it into the back of a Kia Sportage. Pictures, anyone? I don't have the manual to hand right now but my recollection is that it is roughly chest high, about as wide and deep as a UK fridge and would be a pain to load into anything other than an estate car (station wagon to you IIRC). In fact, even in an estate you may find that the box is slightly too high to fit. I picked up a BA123 in my car a few years ago and, although it did fit, lifting it in (with help) and out (without help) was harder than I thought it would be. Antonio From vze2wsvr at verizon.net Thu Nov 1 09:09:02 2001 From: vze2wsvr at verizon.net (Eric Chomko) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:18 2005 Subject: Price guide for vintage computers References: Message-ID: <3BE1658E.3FBD6946@mail.verizon.net> Tony Duell wrote: > > > If there is a price guide that says 'Commodore 64s are worth $200 each', > > > and people actually manage to sell them at that price, then there won't > > > be any available at prices that most of us can afford. > > > > But Commodore 64s AREN'T worth $200 and no one is going to get that price > > I seriously suspect (based on what I've seen in other areas) that if a > price guide was pnblished saying 'C64s are worth $200' then you'd see an > awful lot priced close to that figure. You'd find the odd one priced at a > more reasonable amount (it belongs to somebody who's not read the price > guide), I guess. But not too many. And at $200, they'd sit and sit. I have at least 2 of them and would easily part with one or two at $200 a piece. > > > And if every C64 is priced at $200, then you can bet some people with > more money than braincells will buy them. > Agreed. More-money-than-brains has been a complaint of mine about people, especially Americans, for years! I have seen then in other markets as well. I just don't get the oppurtunity to deal with them as much as I'd like. Or maybe I'm just to damn honest or not ruthless enough to separate them with their cash. :) > > > > > Why would you want anything to go up in value? Answer me that and I'll > > > > answer your question. > > > > > > Oh come on. If I bought something as an investment only (say I bought > > > shares in some company), then I would obviously want the value to > > > increase. The only 'use' for that item is to get me more money in the > > > future. That's why I bought it. > > > > > > > Fine, a computer can be both and interesting item to collect and an investment. > > No, I don't want _my_ computers to be an investment... > That's fine. But would you lambaste someone that did? And simply because you choose not to is it wrong for me to look at it the same way, just because? > > Let me give an example, from an area where there is already a price > guide -- HP calculators. > > Now, I like HP calculators (as do all insane people ;-)). I also try to > obtain the most battered, scratched, etc examples I can find. I repair > them, get them running again, and _use_ them. Everything is fine with what you state as there is no right or wrong way to collect, IMO. The only exception I would take about your statements above is, if in your quest for beat up machines that YOU would beat them up in order to get them to your liking. I assume that is not what you do, but felt the need to mention it. Even though one's system is theirs and they can do anything they want to with them, I personally take exception to intentional damage of items. Again I am not saying that is what you do. > > > I don't want 'mint condition' machines. From what I've seen of other > enthusiasts who have such machines, I'd never use them. I'd be worried > about lowering the value by scratching the keyboard trim. Or ruining the > value by a hardware modification. All I'd do with such a machine (and all > said collectors do) is keep it in the softcase, and take it out > occassionally to look at. > I understand. The preverse nature of such items is in other collectibles as well. > > No thanks. I want machines to _use_. To _use_ as computers, not as some > way of storing money for a few years. Machines that it doesn't matter if > I scratch the keyboard, or solder some wires to the PCB. So I start from > machines that are worthless anyway, knowing that I can't lower the value > any more. But I can have a darn good time using them. > Fine. But there is the whole gambit, and you are speaking about one end. I honestly like old PCs and Macs for EXACTLY the reason you mention above. The best part of course is that if you do break it then it's easy to replace, and chalk one up for learning. I get both the hacker-mentatlity and the collector-mentality and see where they are at odds with one another. But on the same token, given the way of things that have come from obscurity to everyday mainstay items; computers, and early ones at that, are bound to be collectibles. > > > > > > > > > But I don't treat classic computers as an investment. Their use is not to > > > make me money in the future. Their use is to be programmed, modified, > > > repaired, hacked, and so on. So the financial value doesn't matter. > > > > > > > That is your take, don't expect the same treatment from everyone else just > > because that is what you want. > > Hang on a second... I am only saying that _I_ don't want to treat > computers as an investment. If other people do, well, I guess they have a > right to do that. It doesn't mean I have to approve of what they are > doing. And if it spoils the hobby for me, you can bet I am going to moan. As you are entitled to. As for me, I'll hack and collect all the same. And I can't imagine a really good hack as adding any less value to a real nice existing collectible. Others (purists) may disagree, in their quest for mint-in-the-box, etc. Reminds me of the guy in the movie "Toy Story II". Eric > > > -tony From vze2wsvr at verizon.net Thu Nov 1 09:16:49 2001 From: vze2wsvr at verizon.net (Eric Chomko) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:18 2005 Subject: Price guide for vintage computers References: <3BDE3A1F.E1DE6DC@mail.verizon.net> <5.1.0.14.0.20011030160251.027b6110@mcmanis.com> Message-ID: <3BE16761.750818B5@mail.verizon.net> Chuck McManis wrote: > At 02:44 PM 10/30/01, Tony responded to: > > > But Commodore 64s AREN'T worth $200 and no one is going to get that price > > with: > > >I seriously suspect (based on what I've seen in other areas) that if a > >price guide was pnblished saying 'C64s are worth $200' then you'd see an > >awful lot priced close to that figure. You'd find the odd one priced at a > >more reasonable amount (it belongs to somebody who's not read the price > >guide), I guess. But not too many. > > It doesn't work that way. Its like saying some political body could repeal > the law of averages. If the market is fair (meaning that anyone can enter > and anyone can buy or sell at whatever price they choose) then the price of > Commodore 64s (or any commodity for that matter) will be dictated entirely > by supply and demand. Economists call it the "invisible hand" but basically > it means that when you don't sell your C64 for $200 you will knock a few > bucks off the price and continue doing that until it sells or it is worth > more to you than your willing to sell it for (note that this is identical > to selling it to yourself so effectively you have sold it) > And any good price guide will reflect THAT actual selling price. > > Having a price guide does not affect market prices. If it brings in more > buyers (thus increasing demand) then it can raise prices, if it brings in > more sellers (thus increasing supply) then it can lower prices. But the > effect on prices is only tangential to the overall market. > Someone that understands! Thanks Chuck, I could not have stated it more eloquently. Eric P.S. This brings up the concepts of "buyers market" vs. "sellers market". Currently, old compters on the whole, is a buyer's market as there is more supply of systems than there are people (demand) for them. > > --Chuck From DAW at yalepress3.unipress.yale.edu Thu Nov 1 12:20:35 2001 From: DAW at yalepress3.unipress.yale.edu (David Woyciesjes) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:18 2005 Subject: OffTopic: Intel's dependent on the Alpha chip... Message-ID: <9011A52E011ED311B4280004AC1BA615014671F4@yalepress3.unipress.yale.edu> Here's some ammo for the anti-Intel folks... --- David A Woyciesjes --- C & IS Support Specialist --- Yale University Press --- mailto:david.woyciesjes@yale.edu --- (203) 432-0953 --- ICQ # - 905818 ! -----Original Message----- ! From: Grant Bechler [mailto:GrantB@plaid.com] ! Sent: Thursday, November 01, 2001 12:35 PM ! To: AlphaNT Mailing List ! Subject: [alphant] Intel's dependent on the Alpha chip (From the ! inquirer) ! ! ! Howdy All, ! ! I thought that Aaron would get a kick out of this article ! ! http://213.219.40.69/01110105.htm ! ! "WE WONDERED WHY DOUG BUSCH, the IT manager at Intel, went ! all coy on us ! yesterday when we asked about the systems running in its factories ! (fabrication plants) and a little bit of investigation has ! revealed the ! answer. ! Its fabs are heavily dependent on Alpha microprocessors and ! run OpenVMS to ! ensure that blue screens of death or glitches in its own ! chips don't bring ! the production lines down..." From wkb at freebie.xs4all.nl Thu Nov 1 12:37:57 2001 From: wkb at freebie.xs4all.nl (Wilko Bulte) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:18 2005 Subject: OffTopic: Intel's dependent on the Alpha chip... In-Reply-To: <9011A52E011ED311B4280004AC1BA615014671F4@yalepress3.unipress.yale.edu>; from DAW@yalepress3.unipress.yale.edu on Thu, Nov 01, 2001 at 01:20:35PM -0500 References: <9011A52E011ED311B4280004AC1BA615014671F4@yalepress3.unipress.yale.edu> Message-ID: <20011101193757.B14893@freebie.xs4all.nl> On Thu, Nov 01, 2001 at 01:20:35PM -0500, David Woyciesjes wrote: Sure.. that has been the case for a long time. Intel Ireland ran OpenVMS CI-clusters, might date back to the VAX days. If you want the utmost in stability (and you do want that for a wafer fab) VMS outdoes the competition (yes, also Unix competition!) Wilko > Here's some ammo for the anti-Intel folks... > > --- David A Woyciesjes > --- C & IS Support Specialist > --- Yale University Press > --- mailto:david.woyciesjes@yale.edu > --- (203) 432-0953 > --- ICQ # - 905818 > > > ! -----Original Message----- > ! From: Grant Bechler [mailto:GrantB@plaid.com] > ! Sent: Thursday, November 01, 2001 12:35 PM > ! To: AlphaNT Mailing List > ! Subject: [alphant] Intel's dependent on the Alpha chip (From the > ! inquirer) > ! > ! > ! Howdy All, > ! > ! I thought that Aaron would get a kick out of this article > ! > ! http://213.219.40.69/01110105.htm > ! > ! "WE WONDERED WHY DOUG BUSCH, the IT manager at Intel, went > ! all coy on us > ! yesterday when we asked about the systems running in its factories > ! (fabrication plants) and a little bit of investigation has > ! revealed the > ! answer. > ! Its fabs are heavily dependent on Alpha microprocessors and > ! run OpenVMS to > ! ensure that blue screens of death or glitches in its own > ! chips don't bring > ! the production lines down..." ---end of quoted text--- -- | / o / /_ _ email: wilko@FreeBSD.org |/|/ / / /( (_) Bulte Arnhem, The Netherlands From wonko at arkham.ws Thu Nov 1 12:43:11 2001 From: wonko at arkham.ws (Brian Hechinger) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:18 2005 Subject: OffTopic: Intel's dependent on the Alpha chip... In-Reply-To: <20011101193757.B14893@freebie.xs4all.nl>; from wkb@freebie.xs4all.nl on Thu, Nov 01, 2001 at 07:37:57PM +0100 References: <9011A52E011ED311B4280004AC1BA615014671F4@yalepress3.unipress.yale.edu> <20011101193757.B14893@freebie.xs4all.nl> Message-ID: <20011101134311.A12746@wintermute.arkham.ws> > If you want the utmost in stability (and you do want that for a wafer fab) > VMS outdoes the competition (yes, also Unix competition!) us UNIX weenie wave our uptime numbers around at each other, VMS people don't do that. why? you install VMS, boot the machine, and expect it to run until you take it offline. the pair of 6000 boxes at the one place i worked at ran from the day they were installed, up until they were removed from the facility late last year. never shut down. not once. god i love that stuff. -brian From wkb at freebie.xs4all.nl Thu Nov 1 12:52:15 2001 From: wkb at freebie.xs4all.nl (Wilko Bulte) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:18 2005 Subject: OffTopic: Intel's dependent on the Alpha chip... In-Reply-To: <20011101134311.A12746@wintermute.arkham.ws>; from wonko@arkham.ws on Thu, Nov 01, 2001 at 01:43:11PM -0500 References: <9011A52E011ED311B4280004AC1BA615014671F4@yalepress3.unipress.yale.edu> <20011101193757.B14893@freebie.xs4all.nl> <20011101134311.A12746@wintermute.arkham.ws> Message-ID: <20011101195215.E14893@freebie.xs4all.nl> On Thu, Nov 01, 2001 at 01:43:11PM -0500, Brian Hechinger wrote: > > If you want the utmost in stability (and you do want that for a wafer fab) > > VMS outdoes the competition (yes, also Unix competition!) > > us UNIX weenie wave our uptime numbers around at each other, VMS people don't > do that. why? you install VMS, boot the machine, and expect it to run until > you take it offline. the pair of 6000 boxes at the one place i worked at ran > from the day they were installed, up until they were removed from the facility > late last year. never shut down. not once. god i love that stuff. Yep.. ;) I'm a Unix weenie myself, but VMS sure beats it for stability. -- | / o / /_ _ email: wilko@FreeBSD.org |/|/ / / /( (_) Bulte Arnhem, The Netherlands From hpeyerl at beer.org Thu Nov 1 12:56:55 2001 From: hpeyerl at beer.org (Herb Peyerl) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:18 2005 Subject: OffTopic: Intel's dependent on the Alpha chip... Message-ID: <200111011856.fA1Iuum09704@grok.beer.org> Brian Hechinger wrote: > us UNIX weenie wave our uptime numbers around at each other, VMS people don't > do that. why? you install VMS, boot the machine, and expect it to run until > you take it offline. the pair of 6000 boxes at the one place i worked at ran > from the day they were installed, up until they were removed from the facility > late last year. never shut down. not once. god i love that stuff. Guess you weren't running UCX then. Back then, it was hard to find a packet that _didn't_ cause a fatal bug check on a machine running UCX. Ok, maybe I'm exaggerating just a little bit, but it sure was annoying and all we got from DEC was "so don't do that". From marino13 at btinternet.com Thu Nov 1 13:04:44 2001 From: marino13 at btinternet.com (Shaun Stephenson) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:18 2005 Subject: Apple Mac "Stylewriter" printer for sale... Message-ID: <3BE19CCC.D22FAF2E@btinternet.com> Long shot I know but my girlfriend is getting rid of an old Stylewriter ink jet printer for the Mac (not sure of model number etc but she used it on a very old Mac mono laptop) - just thought I'd see if anyone here wanted it before it goes to ebay. Its in the UK by the way. Offers / enquiries privately off-list. Cheers. Shaun From wonko at arkham.ws Thu Nov 1 12:56:02 2001 From: wonko at arkham.ws (Brian Hechinger) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:18 2005 Subject: OffTopic: Intel's dependent on the Alpha chip... In-Reply-To: <200111011856.fA1Iuum09704@grok.beer.org>; from hpeyerl@beer.org on Thu, Nov 01, 2001 at 11:56:55AM -0700 References: <200111011856.fA1Iuum09704@grok.beer.org> Message-ID: <20011101135602.D12746@wintermute.arkham.ws> On Thu, Nov 01, 2001 at 11:56:55AM -0700, Herb Peyerl wrote: > > Guess you weren't running UCX then. nope. pure DECnet. the pair of 6000 boxes were interconnected with CI and had a big HSC sitting in between them. gazoodles of storage, don't remember how much though (remember, i'm a solaris admin by trade, so i only get to play with toys like that at home, never at work) all the CAD stations in the building were originally VAXstation 4000 desktops that satellite booted off of ethernet and got everything from the cluster with the exception of page and swap which was done on two local drives. these machines were eventually upgraded to DEC 3000 class machines (300LX and 700 for the most part, that's where i got mine from) but with the same setup, page and swap local, satellite boot from the 6000/HSC setup. pretty neat if you ask me. > Back then, it was hard to find a packet that _didn't_ cause a fatal > bug check on a machine running UCX. Ok, maybe I'm exaggerating just > a little bit, but it sure was annoying and all we got from DEC was > "so don't do that". that's why MultiNet and, what was that other one that no-one ever uses anymore? anyway, that's why they had such good business. DEC didn't care for TCP/IP since it wasn't DECnet, so they let it fall to the third party. Multinet is an awesome package btw. -brian From healyzh at aracnet.com Thu Nov 1 13:10:08 2001 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:18 2005 Subject: OffTopic: Intel's dependent on the Alpha chip... In-Reply-To: <20011101193757.B14893@freebie.xs4all.nl> References: <9011A52E011ED311B4280004AC1BA615014671F4@yalepress3.unipress.yale.edu>; from DAW@yalepress3.unipress.yale.edu on Thu, Nov 01, 2001 at 01:20:35PM -0500 <9011A52E011ED311B4280004AC1BA615014671F4@yalepress3.unipress.yale.edu> Message-ID: >If you want the utmost in stability (and you do want that for a wafer fab) >VMS outdoes the competition (yes, also Unix competition!) Last I heard, 90% of the worlds FAB's run on OpenVMS. Zane -- | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator | | healyzh@aracnet.com (primary) | OpenVMS Enthusiast | | | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | PDP-10 Emulation and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | From wkb at freebie.xs4all.nl Thu Nov 1 13:15:58 2001 From: wkb at freebie.xs4all.nl (Wilko Bulte) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:18 2005 Subject: OffTopic: Intel's dependent on the Alpha chip... In-Reply-To: <200111011856.fA1Iuum09704@grok.beer.org>; from hpeyerl@beer.org on Thu, Nov 01, 2001 at 11:56:55AM -0700 References: <200111011856.fA1Iuum09704@grok.beer.org> Message-ID: <20011101201558.B15233@freebie.xs4all.nl> On Thu, Nov 01, 2001 at 11:56:55AM -0700, Herb Peyerl wrote: > Brian Hechinger wrote: > > us UNIX weenie wave our uptime numbers around at each other, VMS people don't > > do that. why? you install VMS, boot the machine, and expect it to run until > > you take it offline. the pair of 6000 boxes at the one place i worked at ran > > from the day they were installed, up until they were removed from the facility > > late last year. never shut down. not once. god i love that stuff. > > Guess you weren't running UCX then. Arghh. -- | / o / /_ _ email: wilko@FreeBSD.org |/|/ / / /( (_) Bulte Arnhem, The Netherlands From UberTechnoid at home.com Thu Nov 1 13:35:28 2001 From: UberTechnoid at home.com (UberTechnoid@home.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:18 2005 Subject: Was OT Re: OffTopic: Intel's dependent on the Alpha chip... In-Reply-To: <9011A52E011ED311B4280004AC1BA615014671F4@yalepress3.unipress.yale.edu> Message-ID: <20011101193601.XSUD25512.femail21.sdc1.sfba.home.com@BENCHBOX> My Vaxstation 4000/60 was owned by Intel. Allways thought that was funny. '-) Regards, Jeff In <9011A52E011ED311B4280004AC1BA615014671F4@yalepress3.unipress.yale.edu>, on 11/01/01 at 01:20 PM, David Woyciesjes said: >Here's some ammo for the anti-Intel folks... >--- David A Woyciesjes >--- C & IS Support Specialist >--- Yale University Press >--- mailto:david.woyciesjes@yale.edu >--- (203) 432-0953 >--- ICQ # - 905818 >! -----Original Message----- >! From: Grant Bechler [mailto:GrantB@plaid.com] >! Sent: Thursday, November 01, 2001 12:35 PM >! To: AlphaNT Mailing List >! Subject: [alphant] Intel's dependent on the Alpha chip (From the ! >inquirer) >! >! >! Howdy All, >! >! I thought that Aaron would get a kick out of this article >! >! http://213.219.40.69/01110105.htm >! >! "WE WONDERED WHY DOUG BUSCH, the IT manager at Intel, went ! all coy >on us >! yesterday when we asked about the systems running in its factories ! >(fabrication plants) and a little bit of investigation has ! revealed >the >! answer. >! Its fabs are heavily dependent on Alpha microprocessors and ! run >OpenVMS to >! ensure that blue screens of death or glitches in its own >! chips don't bring >! the production lines down..." -- ----------------------------------------------------------- Jeffrey S. Worley Asheville, NC USA 828-6984887 UberTechnoid@Home.com ----------------------------------------------------------- From allain at panix.com Thu Nov 1 13:52:53 2001 From: allain at panix.com (John Allain) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:18 2005 Subject: OffTopic: Intel's dependent on the Alpha chip... References: <200111011856.fA1Iuum09704@grok.beer.org> Message-ID: <004101c1630e$cbd96ac0$21fe54a6@ibm23xhr06> >> god i love that stuff. > all we got from DEC was "so don't do that". The One and only time I filed a BugCheck report with Dec it was 1988 and the ?SE?'s were all over us (by phone) with pleasantries, and it was patched soon after. It was as if they never got calls, and one Bug was enough to make their week. Not exactly true I'm sure, but that was the way it played out. John A. From mhstein at usa.net Thu Nov 1 14:56:33 2001 From: mhstein at usa.net (M H Stein) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:18 2005 Subject: hard-sector 5 1/4 disk Message-ID: <01C162EE.72C77FA0@mse-d03> Hmmm... you don't use Windows much, do you... ------------------Original Message---------------- Date: Wed, 31 Oct 2001 15:29:50 -0700 From: "Richard Erlacher" Subject: Re: hard-sector 5 1/4 disk The way I seem to remember it is that, back then, we were amazed when things worked, rather than being irked when they didn't. Apple's attitude was clearl, though, and that was that if your data really mattered, you'd certainly use a computer and not an Apple. The Apple wasn't designed from the ground up as a computing machine, but rather as a video toy (not in the disparaging sense) on the order of the several other video games of the time, which, coincidentally could also do some computing. Apple's approach was that if people were willing to buy an Apple and then use it for useful work, they'd try to charge as much as they possibly could, since the overall cost ostensibly would be low initially, and then they'd make their money on the disk drives, (where they had some real margin) and other add-ons that it took to convert the Apple into a computer capable of doing useful work. What makes all this crystal clear is that if I fire up an Apple today, it still does all the stupid disk-subsystem-related crap it did back then, only, by now, nobody would even think of putting up with that. Back then, it was about par for the course, but it wouldn't last a week in today's environment. From mhstein at usa.net Thu Nov 1 14:56:29 2001 From: mhstein at usa.net (M H Stein) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:18 2005 Subject: hard-sector 5 1/4 disk Message-ID: <01C162EE.6F13ED80@mse-d03> This time I think I can say without making an a%% of myself that Commodore also did that from day one; most if not all their drives had CPU's to handle the IEEE interface ... m ----------------Original Message-------------------- Date: Wed, 31 Oct 2001 18:21:49 -0500 From: Jeff Hellige Subject: Re: hard-sector 5 1/4 disk >The Atari 8-bit drives all had them that I can recall, Percom, Indus, >Trak, etc. The Indus GT was one nice drive and they made it for other machines than just the Atari line. It was interesting to sit there and listen to it while watching the track readout change. I've never torn one apart to check but I'm told that they used a Z80 in the drive to control everything which would be interesting since that'd make the chip in the drive as powerful as the main CPU of the machine it was attached to. Jeff From mhstein at usa.net Thu Nov 1 14:56:41 2001 From: mhstein at usa.net (M H Stein) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:18 2005 Subject: EISA - was VLB SCSI? Message-ID: <01C162EE.76798B20@mse-d03> Hmmm, that reminds me: I have an EISA Compaq 486sx at a client site from which I had to remove an add-on internal modem; ran the diagnostic/configuration program, it says everything's fine, but when it boots it stops waiting for F1 saying the configuration's incorrect. Press F1 to continue & everything works, just a nuisance 'cause it can't restart after a power failure without someone there to press F1. Any ideas? Can give more details off-list if anyone can help. m ----------Original Message---------- Date: 1 Nov 2001 1:11:30 +0100 From: "Iggy Drougge" Subject: Re: VLB SCSI? ...What I dislike about either system is that it's so awfully software-based. IMO you can't really can't call MCA or EISA plug'n'play... From vance at ikickass.org Thu Nov 1 14:59:20 2001 From: vance at ikickass.org (One Without Reason) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:18 2005 Subject: VLB SCSI? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: I prefer the reference partition, but what's even better are the RS/6000 machines that have the reference software burned into the ROMs, and accessible from the ROM monitor. Peace... Sridhar On Thu, 1 Nov 2001, Jeff Hellige wrote: > >They are better than Plug an Play. PnP doesn't let you choose any > >settings. Not having jumpers is a nice way to have it too. Plus not > >all PS/2s use the referance partition (IML). > > Some like my 8573-121 use a reference disk instead. Anytime > you add or remove a board you use the setup disk to copy the > appropriate ADF file to that disk and it sets it up. I think it's a > bit easier to manage than the reference partition. > > Jeff > -- > Home of the TRS-80 Model 2000 FAQ File > http://www.cchaven.com > http://www.geocities.com/siliconvalley/lakes/6757 > From mhstein at usa.net Thu Nov 1 14:56:22 2001 From: mhstein at usa.net (M H Stein) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:18 2005 Subject: CPU design at the gate level Message-ID: <01C162EE.6B698320@mse-d03> Not to mention relays-> tubes (valves for tony)-> transistors -> RTL->... Oops, I see someone else remembers the 914; thanks, Peter. ------------Original Message--------------- DTL -> TTL -> LSI -> FPGA, the gates are the same, just the wires got smaller and the way one manipulates them changed. From mhstein at usa.net Thu Nov 1 14:59:09 2001 From: mhstein at usa.net (M H Stein) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:18 2005 Subject: Price guide for vintage computers Message-ID: <01C162EE.7A1C5460@mse-d03> Hate to prolong this already too-long thread, but that raises an interesting point; since that's exactly what most of us were doing in those long-ago days, hacking around the insides with our soldering irons, is it really a sin to do the same thing today instead of keeping them on the shelf in pristine condition? Comments? m --------------Original Message-------------- Date: Thu, 01 Nov 2001 10:09:02 -0500 From: Eric Chomko Subject: Re: Price guide for vintage computers Everything is fine with what you state as there is no right or wrong way to collect, IMO. The only exception I would take about your statements above is, if in your quest for beat up machines that YOU would beat them up in order to get them to your liking. I assume that is not what you do, but felt the need to mention it. Even though one's system is theirs and they can do anything they want to with them, I personally take exception to intentional damage of items. Again I am not saying that is what you do. From mhstein at usa.net Thu Nov 1 15:01:05 2001 From: mhstein at usa.net (M H Stein) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:18 2005 Subject: value of classic DEC machines? Message-ID: <01C162EE.7DBF1DA0@mse-d03> Whoa! 50 bucks, and three years ago?!? Put it in the price guide! That means my copy of Ahl's MORE Basic Computer Games has got to be worth at least $100... I'm outta here & off to check into eBay, but before I go, 'cause I like you guys I'll offer it here first at $49.95; 84 (Count 'em!) FABULOUS games for your personal computer! Start haggling Speaking of you guys, just curious: is this an all-male hobby? No members of the fairer sex here? And Ethan, ain't heard back from you; you want these AIM manuals or what? mike --------------Original Message------------- Date: Wed, 31 Oct 2001 22:26:44 -0800 (PST) From: Ethan Dicks Subject: Re: value of classic DEC machines? I heard that three years ago when I tried to haggle for a copy of David Ahl's BASIC Games book at the Dayton Hamvention. They guy said "I can get $50 for it..." I asked him if he could, what he was doing at Dayton and why didn't he just sell it on eBay in the first place. Needless to say, the negotiations did not proceed smoothly. ;-) - -ethan From vance at ikickass.org Thu Nov 1 15:04:28 2001 From: vance at ikickass.org (One Without Reason) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:18 2005 Subject: OffTopic: Intel's dependent on the Alpha chip... In-Reply-To: <20011101134311.A12746@wintermute.arkham.ws> Message-ID: Where I used to work, there was an IBM PS/2 model 80 that was installed in a closet to do coordination of manufacturing equipment status and utilization reports when it was new. It ran DOS. It was deinstalled in May 2001. It had been running continuously without a crash, except for losses of power, and that only happened twice in the same year, in 1992. Peace... Sridhar On Thu, 1 Nov 2001, Brian Hechinger wrote: > > If you want the utmost in stability (and you do want that for a wafer fab) > > VMS outdoes the competition (yes, also Unix competition!) > > us UNIX weenie wave our uptime numbers around at each other, VMS people don't > do that. why? you install VMS, boot the machine, and expect it to run until > you take it offline. the pair of 6000 boxes at the one place i worked at ran > from the day they were installed, up until they were removed from the facility > late last year. never shut down. not once. god i love that stuff. > > -brian > From vance at ikickass.org Thu Nov 1 15:05:41 2001 From: vance at ikickass.org (One Without Reason) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:18 2005 Subject: OffTopic: Intel's dependent on the Alpha chip... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Maybe that applies only to Semiconductor FABs. A lot of other FABs run OS/400, and still others run QNX. Peace... Sridhar On Thu, 1 Nov 2001, Zane H. Healy wrote: > >If you want the utmost in stability (and you do want that for a wafer fab) > >VMS outdoes the competition (yes, also Unix competition!) > > Last I heard, 90% of the worlds FAB's run on OpenVMS. > > Zane > -- > | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator | > | healyzh@aracnet.com (primary) | OpenVMS Enthusiast | > | | Classic Computer Collector | > +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ > | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | > | PDP-10 Emulation and Zane's Computer Museum. | > | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | > From wonko at arkham.ws Thu Nov 1 15:05:20 2001 From: wonko at arkham.ws (Brian Hechinger) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:18 2005 Subject: OffTopic: Intel's dependent on the Alpha chip... In-Reply-To: ; from vance@ikickass.org on Thu, Nov 01, 2001 at 04:04:28PM -0500 References: <20011101134311.A12746@wintermute.arkham.ws> Message-ID: <20011101160520.E12746@wintermute.arkham.ws> > Where I used to work, there was an IBM PS/2 model 80 that was installed > in a closet to do coordination of manufacturing equipment status and > utilization reports when it was new. It ran DOS. It was deinstalled in > May 2001. It had been running continuously without a crash, except for > losses of power, and that only happened twice in the same year, in 1992. i wouldn't doubt it, i used to run DOS on my 386 many moons ago, and it never gave me any trouble. it's great. it's almost entirely useless for doing more than one thing at a time. when you get to be that simple, stability is just about given to you. but once you step up to large multiuser systems you have all sorts of contention for the same resources that you don't have in a single tasking environment. so yeah, i believe you are right. i'm not, however very impressed. :) why don't you start throwing mainframe data at us? mainframes run a lot like the old vaxen, uptimes in the double digit years range. -brian From frederik at freddym.org Thu Nov 1 15:18:23 2001 From: frederik at freddym.org (Frederik Meerwaldt) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:18 2005 Subject: OffTopic: Intel's dependent on the Alpha chip... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Please remove the port-alpha list from the upcoming follow-up posts. It's just because this is not in any way related to NetBSD/alpha. Everyone who likes to read this is participating on the Classiccmp list, too (incl. me), and to this is not a problem. Greetings - Freddy -- Geek Code 3.1: GCS s+: a--- C+++ UBOU+++ P-- E--- W++ N w--- V++ PGP- t? 5? tv ========================================================================== Frederik Meerwaldt Homepage: http://www.freddym.org Bavaria/Germany JUST UPDATED!!! OpenVMS & Unix Howtos & more Solaris, HP/UX, AIX, NetBSD, OpenBSD, IRIX, Tru64, OpenVMS, Ultrix, BeOS From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Nov 1 15:26:49 2001 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:18 2005 Subject: Price guide for vintage computers In-Reply-To: <3BE1658E.3FBD6946@mail.verizon.net> from "Eric Chomko" at Nov 1, 1 10:09:02 am Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 3193 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20011101/a67c8faf/attachment.ksh From dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com Thu Nov 1 16:14:31 2001 From: dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com (Douglas Quebbeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:18 2005 Subject: OffTopic: Intel's dependent on the Alpha chip... Message-ID: <7A9BACCEF0171D4FB77019F5104CDD3722585A@jeffserver.tegjeff.com> > > Where I used to work, there was an IBM PS/2 model 80 that was installed > > in a closet to do coordination of manufacturing equipment status and > > utilization reports when it was new. It ran DOS. It was deinstalled in > > May 2001. It had been running continuously without a crash, except for > > losses of power, and that only happened twice in the same year, in 1992. > > i wouldn't doubt it, i used to run DOS on my 386 many moons ago, and it never > gave me any trouble. it's great. it's almost entirely useless for doing more > than one thing at a time. when you get to be that simple, stability is just > about given to you. but once you step up to large multiuser systems you have > all sorts of contention for the same resources that you don't have in a single > tasking environment. so yeah, i believe you are right. i'm not, however very > impressed. :) > > why don't you start throwing mainframe data at us? mainframes run a lot like > the old vaxen, uptimes in the double digit years range. Heh... depends on the mainframe. The CDC-6600, the world's first supercomputer, was for many years rated as having a mine-hour MTBF... turned out that was because a counter was oveflowing after 9 hours of ticking away, and only under one particular operating system (SCOPE). But even under the more-stable KRONOS operating system, the field engineers typically took it down for an hour each morning. Periodically, they would polish the platters on one of the disk drive units (in the early 90s, we used to kid about using Lemon Pledge to cure stiction, but they drives *really* did get polished), while smoking a cigarette. Ok, I'm drifting away from reliability, so I'd better cut & run. -dq From UberTechnoid at home.com Thu Nov 1 16:15:21 2001 From: UberTechnoid at home.com (UberTechnoid@home.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:18 2005 Subject: value of classic DEC machines? In-Reply-To: <01C162EE.7DBF1DA0@mse-d03> Message-ID: <20011101221708.XGU3624.femail22.sdc1.sfba.home.com@BENCHBOX> There's Allison for one. I don't think we raise our little girls to glorify techweenie stuff. I hope my stepdaughter turns out different. She has Solaris Sparc, OS/2, Windows, DataGeneral MV, and Atari sticktime allready and she is only five! Regards, Jeff In <01C162EE.7DBF1DA0@mse-d03>, on 11/01/01 at 04:01 PM, M H Stein said: >Speaking of you guys, just curious: is this an all-male hobby? No >members of the fairer sex here? -- ----------------------------------------------------------- Jeffrey S. Worley Asheville, NC USA 828-6984887 UberTechnoid@Home.com ----------------------------------------------------------- From cmcmanis at mcmanis.com Thu Nov 1 16:23:37 2001 From: cmcmanis at mcmanis.com (Chuck McManis) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:18 2005 Subject: DEC 9642 enclosure? In-Reply-To: <20011101030421.D28646@mrbill.net> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20011101141428.02b05920@mcmanis.com> At 01:04 AM 11/1/01, Bill Bradford wrote: >Anybody know what a DEC H9642 enclosure looks like or how big? The >NetBSD hardware reference says its two BA23s... but I need to know if >I can fit it into the back of a Kia Sportage. Pictures, anyone? If I'm not mistaken you mean the H9644 chassis. Look here: and see that brute in the back? Yup that is a H9644 with a MicroVAX 3800 in it. You're probably looking at dual BA23's, and two RA80s. It will not fit "in" a Kia Sportage, however you could probably *make* a Kia Sportage out of its metal pieces :-) System weight is in the neighborhood of 500 to 600 lbs. Fortunately you can de-rack it and get that into 200 lb pieces. (RA81s) >Given that, anybody want one (its a MicroVAX II) in the Austin area? followed by >Free, you just have to come pick it up. I'm being given this as a "gotta >take this too" in addition to a PDP 11/53... and I dont have room for it >in the garage, nor do I have time to mess with it right now... Sigh, its too bad that these systems will end up stranded. Strangely, if there were a SCSI interface in it there would be people clamoring for it :-) Its all in how you look at it. I discovered that you can answer "yes" to all offers to give you stuff, then start up a incoming stream and produce a fairly complete/nice collection out of it. --Chuck From vance at ikickass.org Thu Nov 1 16:53:52 2001 From: vance at ikickass.org (One Without Reason) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:18 2005 Subject: OffTopic: Intel's dependent on the Alpha chip... In-Reply-To: <7A9BACCEF0171D4FB77019F5104CDD3722585A@jeffserver.tegjeff.com> Message-ID: On Thu, 1 Nov 2001, Douglas Quebbeman wrote: > Heh... depends on the mainframe. > > The CDC-6600, the world's first supercomputer, was for many years > rated as having a mine-hour MTBF... turned out that was because a > counter was oveflowing after 9 hours of ticking away, and only > under one particular operating system (SCOPE). But even under the > more-stable KRONOS operating system, the field engineers typically > took it down for an hour each morning. Periodically, they would > polish the platters on one of the disk drive units (in the early > 90s, we used to kid about using Lemon Pledge to cure stiction, but > they drives *really* did get polished), while smoking a cigarette. But I don't know if the CDC-6600 (one of which I really really want to get) fits the modern definition of "mainframe". It was more supercomputer than mainframe, and I don't think anyone would call a Cray a mainframe. Peace... Sridhar > Ok, I'm drifting away from reliability, so I'd better cut & run. > > -dq > From foo at siconic.com Thu Nov 1 16:53:30 2001 From: foo at siconic.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:18 2005 Subject: OT: Girlies in the Midst? (was Re: value of classic DEC machines?) In-Reply-To: <20011101221708.XGU3624.femail22.sdc1.sfba.home.com@BENCHBOX> Message-ID: On Thu, 1 Nov 2001 UberTechnoid@home.com wrote: > There's Allison for one. I don't think we raise our little girls to > glorify techweenie stuff. I hope my stepdaughter turns out different. > She has Solaris Sparc, OS/2, Windows, DataGeneral MV, and Atari sticktime > allready and she is only five! Does it count if I'm in touch with my feminine side? Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org From mikeford at socal.rr.com Thu Nov 1 15:44:27 2001 From: mikeford at socal.rr.com (Mike Ford) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:18 2005 Subject: OT Steve Jobs rant In-Reply-To: References: <006501c1625e$12e48aa0$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> Message-ID: >Apparently there was some value in what they sold because people bought >it, and Apple is still around (they're hanging on, thanks to Jobs...love >him or hate him, he saved the company). I think that is clearly open to debate. Jobs took the company in the direction HE wanted it to go, and has at BEST had mixed results, great success with the iMac, nothing special anyplace else, and he did tremendous damage. He killed the clone program and the alliance with IBM, and in so doing lost droves of developers and caused a half dozen of the most loyal companies that supported Apple to fail. Long term Jobs may be seen as the person who sent Apple to obscurity trading a loyal base of creative people for a fickle consumer user base. From mikeford at socal.rr.com Thu Nov 1 16:23:32 2001 From: mikeford at socal.rr.com (Mike Ford) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:18 2005 Subject: value of classic DEC machines? In-Reply-To: <20011101062644.89183.qmail@web20102.mail.yahoo.com> References: Message-ID: >> I'm sure everyone here at least once heard the words, "...but I can get >> $X for it on eBay". > >I heard that three years ago when I tried to haggle for a copy of David >Ahl's BASIC Games book at the Dayton Hamvention. They guy said "I can get >$50 for it..." I asked him if he could, what he was doing at Dayton and >why didn't he just sell it on eBay in the first place. A putz is a putz, without the need for eBay. I know half a dozen guys on my swapmeet circuit that sit on merchandise for years, and put what seem like ridiculous prices on almost everything they have. Lots of times I will see some really curious bit at one of their spaces, but I have learned not to bother looking. They may have stuff I want, but I am NOT their customer. Joe fatwallet who has been looking since childhood for the item is his customer. Long before ebay these sellers were around, and nothing changes their minds on price, so don't waste your time. BTW the answer to your question is that believe it or not these high price sellers likely have a few customers that look for them at the various swapmeets, and cheerfully pay the inflated prices. From UberTechnoid at home.com Thu Nov 1 17:01:43 2001 From: UberTechnoid at home.com (UberTechnoid@home.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:18 2005 Subject: VLB SCSI? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20011101230446.FKMR2781.femail15.sdc1.sfba.home.com@BENCHBOX> I never really liked Eisa much because of the little problem caused when the user no longer has his setup disk... Having it in Rom is pretty nice and solves that problem completely. As for not being able to assign interrupts for PNP, it isn't really true. Depends on your Bios make and rev. Some you deny all IRQ's but the ones you want the system to assign, some you set the irqs you want the systems to assign, some you can't customize at all. My PNP bios is set to exclude irq 11 from it's PNP table of available resources thereby allowing my Adaptec scsi isa controller to sieze that interrupt as it is shunted to take 11. Regards, Jeff In , on 11/01/01 at 03:59 PM, One Without Reason said: >I prefer the reference partition, but what's even better are the RS/6000 >machines that have the reference software burned into the ROMs, and >accessible from the ROM monitor. >Peace... Sridhar >On Thu, 1 Nov 2001, Jeff Hellige wrote: >> >They are better than Plug an Play. PnP doesn't let you choose any >> >settings. Not having jumpers is a nice way to have it too. Plus not >> >all PS/2s use the referance partition (IML). >> >> Some like my 8573-121 use a reference disk instead. Anytime >> you add or remove a board you use the setup disk to copy the >> appropriate ADF file to that disk and it sets it up. I think it's a >> bit easier to manage than the reference partition. >> >> Jeff >> -- >> Home of the TRS-80 Model 2000 FAQ File >> http://www.cchaven.com >> http://www.geocities.com/siliconvalley/lakes/6757 >> -- ----------------------------------------------------------- Jeffrey S. Worley Asheville, NC USA 828-6984887 UberTechnoid@Home.com ----------------------------------------------------------- From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Nov 1 15:41:34 2001 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:18 2005 Subject: Price guide for vintage computers In-Reply-To: <01C162EE.7A1C5460@mse-d03> from "M H Stein" at Nov 1, 1 03:59:09 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1540 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20011101/532a4700/attachment.ksh From vance at ikickass.org Thu Nov 1 17:26:56 2001 From: vance at ikickass.org (One Without Reason) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:18 2005 Subject: VLB SCSI? In-Reply-To: <20011101230446.FKMR2781.femail15.sdc1.sfba.home.com@BENCHBOX> Message-ID: On Thu, 1 Nov 2001 UberTechnoid@home.com wrote: > I never really liked Eisa much because of the little problem caused when > the user no longer has his setup disk... Having it in Rom is pretty nice > and solves that problem completely. I've never seen a PC with a setup program in ROM that can do device-specific resource allocation. > As for not being able to assign interrupts for PNP, it isn't really true. > Depends on your Bios make and rev. Some you deny all IRQ's but the ones > you want the system to assign, some you set the irqs you want the systems > to assign, some you can't customize at all. My PNP bios is set to exclude > irq 11 from it's PNP table of available resources thereby allowing my > Adaptec scsi isa controller to sieze that interrupt as it is shunted to > take 11. Have you ever tried to do resource allocation on a microchannel box? Far, far superior to "shrug & pay". Peace... Sridhar From UberTechnoid at home.com Thu Nov 1 17:09:51 2001 From: UberTechnoid at home.com (UberTechnoid@home.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:18 2005 Subject: FloppyPUter was re:Hard-sector 51/4 disk In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20011101233327.EVZI12020.femail23.sdc1.sfba.home.com@BENCHBOX> > I didn't know that Rana and Indus were one and the same. If they aren't then I'm an idiot. The Rana cover fits the indus like a glove and vice-versa. They are so similar it isn't possible for two different companies to have made them unless it was the same engineering team. I know for sure that Indus became Future, but it was surmise that Rana became Indus. > That's pretty cool. Regardless of just how well it worked, it'd be >interesting to see it done at least once. I wonder if the console I/O >was directed to the screen I/O of the Atari 8bit? The console was intended to be the Atari using a Bit3 font ala the ATR's ADM3a Atari terminal emulator software. The ATR didn't need an atari, it could use a serial terminal, but I've never hooked one to my ATR's to find out. There was a special cable to use the SIO jacks on the ATR connected to a serial dumb terminal. Otherwise you had to use the only other serial port on the thing and lose the ability to run a modem. > The 810 I like, especially with the additional speed of the Happy >upgrade. Without it, the 810 certainly is a slow and noisy beast! The >1050 I've never been a big fan of, though none of mine ever got upgraded >to true DD. The 1050 was an even better drive than the 810. Quieter, just as bulletproof, and faster because of onboard data separator etc. It also used a modified MFM scheme to store more data while still using 128byte sectors called 'Enhanced Density'. ED was a 26spt scheme no one really liked much. Really the drive was a Double Density drive lobotomized to save a couple bucks in onboard RAM. ICD produced the US Doubler which was a Rom with a ram replacement. Very easy to install and the drive was instantly a true DD machine. Reliability was NOT compromised at all. My prize 1050 has the SuperArchiver II with Bitwriter installed. This doesn't affect reliability either! It will copy a paper plate if you want it to..... For those not in the know, the Sarchiver is a hardware option that will copy just about any copy protected disk out there. Duplicate sectors, Long sectors, Short sectors, Phantom sectors, fuzzy sectors, duplicate tracks, long tracks...... It could also vary the drive's rotation speed to aid it in reading/writing these sectors. The BITWRITER hardware option comes in when all else fails and is generally used to copy only those portions of the disk that other methods could not. The Bitwriter does an analogue bit-for-bit copy. Because it is analogue, whole disk copies using this method may not allways work. > Does Bob still do anything? Other than in conversations >about his older stuff, I've not heard his name mentioned in a while. I spoke with him a few months ago. The CSS bbs was still up and running and Black Box's, SuperEburner, and other products were still available. Rtime8's are getting scarce as are some other gear. MIO can't be had for love or money, but the Black Box has more features by far. The only thing the MIO had that wasn't in the BB was RAM. That 1mb external ramdisk was pretty cool.... But my xe's have 512k ramdisks anyway so I don't miss it. I ran a modified Carina II bbs system off that ramdisk for years. All the modules in ram made it alot faster. Data went to hard disk. CSS (Computer Software Services) is now known as New Life Electronics (http://www.nleaudio.com). Bob has allways made hifi stuff. A catalogue, information, docs, source, and other such is on the site. To this day Bob is STILL an Atari hacker. Something of a god he is to me. > Jeff -- ----------------------------------------------------------- Jeffrey S. Worley Asheville, NC USA 828-6984887 UberTechnoid@Home.com ----------------------------------------------------------- From foo at siconic.com Thu Nov 1 17:53:48 2001 From: foo at siconic.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:18 2005 Subject: OT Steve Jobs rant In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Thu, 1 Nov 2001, Mike Ford wrote: > >Apparently there was some value in what they sold because people bought > >it, and Apple is still around (they're hanging on, thanks to Jobs...love > >him or hate him, he saved the company). > > I think that is clearly open to debate. Jobs took the company in the > direction HE wanted it to go, and has at BEST had mixed results, great > success with the iMac, nothing special anyplace else, and he did tremendous > damage. He killed the clone program and the alliance with IBM, and in so > doing lost droves of developers and caused a half dozen of the most loyal > companies that supported Apple to fail. Long term Jobs may be seen as the > person who sent Apple to obscurity trading a loyal base of creative people > for a fickle consumer user base. I think one thing is for certain: if it wasn't for Jobs, Apple by now would probably have been a bitter memory. My advice: don't count Apple out yet. If I had money I'd invest in their stock. Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org From red at bears.org Thu Nov 1 18:08:53 2001 From: red at bears.org (r. 'bear' stricklin) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:18 2005 Subject: OT Steve Jobs rant In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Thu, 1 Nov 2001, Sellam Ismail wrote: > My advice: don't count Apple out yet. If I had money I'd invest in their > stock. I said the exact same thing in September of 1996. I was a sophomore at UW at that time, with about $6 to my name. It would've bought me one share... I should've done it. (: ok r. From jhellige at earthlink.net Thu Nov 1 18:13:48 2001 From: jhellige at earthlink.net (Jeff Hellige) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:18 2005 Subject: FloppyPUter was re:Hard-sector 51/4 disk In-Reply-To: <20011101233327.EVZI12020.femail23.sdc1.sfba.home.com@BENCHBOX> References: <20011101233327.EVZI12020.femail23.sdc1.sfba.home.com@BENCHBOX> Message-ID: >The console was intended to be the Atari using a Bit3 font ala the ATR's >ADM3a Atari terminal emulator software. The ATR didn't need an atari, it >could use a serial terminal, but I've never hooked one to my ATR's to find >out. There was a special cable to use the SIO jacks on the ATR connected >to a serial dumb terminal. Otherwise you had to use the only other serial >port on the thing and lose the ability to run a modem. I've always wanted one of the ATR's but haven't come across one at all. That's pretty interesting though. Most of my Atari 8bit time is spent on the 800 and it's decidedly more stock than yours, the main enhancements being the two Indus GT drives, the Happy 810, and a Bit-3 Full-view 80 video card. I used to hang a 1050 interface or a 1030 modem off of it occasionally as well. >The 1050 was an even better drive than the 810. Quieter, just as >bulletproof, and faster because of onboard data separator etc. It also >used a modified MFM scheme to store more data while still using 128byte >sectors called 'Enhanced Density'. ED was a 26spt scheme no one really >liked much. There is the reason I never really got into using the 1050 that much. I only picked one up much later. People I knew didn't like them at all either. Since the Indus GT's are DD and have never given me any trouble I stuck with them. Both are certainly better than the 810's 90k cap, but there's a big difference between the 1050's 127k ED and the GT's 180k DD. Plus, without 3rd party enhancements the 1050 had the same slow data transfer rate as the 810. The Happy upgrade nearly tripled the rate. I'm not sure what the data transfer rate of the GT's were using DOS XL with syncromesh turned on. >I ran a modified Carina II bbs system off that ramdisk for years. All the >modules in ram made it alot faster. Data went to hard disk. That's cool...I didn't run my own BBS until later when I put it on an XT using QuickBBS. A friend of mine ran a board off of a PCjr using FIDO and the single floppy drive and a 300bps modem. Needless to say, it was pretty much for messages only. >CSS (Computer Software Services) is now known as New Life Electronics >(http://www.nleaudio.com). Bob has allways made hifi stuff. A catalogue, >information, docs, source, and other such is on the site. To this day Bob >is STILL an Atari hacker. Something of a god he is to me. Looks like he's not updated the site in a while. It's good to know he's still out there though. It seems all of these communities have a couple of people that have been elevated to near-god status. Jeff -- Home of the TRS-80 Model 2000 FAQ File http://www.cchaven.com http://www.geocities.com/siliconvalley/lakes/6757 From edick at idcomm.com Thu Nov 1 18:26:41 2001 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:18 2005 Subject: hard-sector 5 1/4 disk References: <01C162EE.72C77FA0@mse-d03> Message-ID: <001201c16335$0bb7dca0$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> Actually, I use Windows 30+ hours per day (# of machines * # of hours) or, if you like, nearly every waking minute, and have more trouble with disk subsystem failures on the Apples in the typical half-hour session than I have with the Windows boxesin any given month. Now, I'm only using three Apples at the moment, but on any given day, I have more data losses than I can remember having over the entire 20+ years I have been using CP/M. These Apple machines (][+, IIe, //c) happily intechange media, so whatever, if anything, is wrong with them is common to them all. They behave pretty much as I remember all Apples doing, even back in the '80's when folks willingly tolerated such behavior, which clearly reminds me of why I never liked them. As I said in a previous email, I'm planning to chuck the things in order to get them off the market, and my drive a truck over them just to protect the public, as soon as I'm done recovering the source files and doc I've so far been unable to recover. (Today was one of the days on which I renewed this frustrating experience, BTW.) Dick ----- Original Message ----- From: "M H Stein" To: "'ClassicComputers'" Sent: Thursday, November 01, 2001 1:56 PM Subject: hard-sector 5 1/4 disk > Hmmm... you don't use Windows much, do you... > > ------------------Original Message---------------- > > Date: Wed, 31 Oct 2001 15:29:50 -0700 > From: "Richard Erlacher" > Subject: Re: hard-sector 5 1/4 disk > > The way I seem to remember it is that, back then, we were amazed when things > worked, rather than being irked when they didn't. Apple's attitude was clearl, > though, and that was that if your data really mattered, you'd certainly use a > computer and not an Apple. The Apple wasn't designed from the ground up as a > computing machine, but rather as a video toy (not in the disparaging sense) on > the order of the several other video games of the time, which, coincidentally > could also do some computing. Apple's approach was that if people were willing > to buy an Apple and then use it for useful work, they'd try to charge as much as > they possibly could, since the overall cost ostensibly would be low initially, > and then they'd make their money on the disk drives, (where they had some real > margin) and other add-ons that it took to convert the Apple into a computer > capable of doing useful work. > > What makes all this crystal clear is that if I fire up an Apple today, it still > does all the stupid disk-subsystem-related crap it did back then, only, by now, > nobody would even think of putting up with that. Back then, it was about par > for the course, but it wouldn't last a week in today's environment. > > > From clandrum at monumental.com Thu Nov 1 18:32:17 2001 From: clandrum at monumental.com (Craig Landrum) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:18 2005 Subject: classiccmp-digest V1 #761 References: <200110291445.IAA86899@opal.tseinc.com> Message-ID: <3BE1E98D.E855DE5F@monumental.com> Certainly didn't mean to disparage any S100 junkies out there. I know my IMSAI's keep getting heavier and heavier. Or perhaps I'm just getting older. Too bad they didn't make them with wheels :-) FYI, I'm also a Mac junkie. Still have my bootable 128K original with external floppy drive and a rare MicronEye camera that plugged into it. Have all sorts of old Mac stuff including spare external drives. My current Mac is a 500Mhz G4 with the big flat Cinema display. Heaven. Craig Landrum Still holding my breath near DC... > ------------------------------ > > Date: Sun, 28 Oct 2001 10:42:11 -0500 > From: M H Stein > Subject: Big Iron - was Genrad Futuredata info > > Having just dropped a rackmount Cromemco System 3 in the process of moving it, I can assure you that it's (relatively) big and there's lots of iron in that PS transformer... and IIRC, it can support around 32 terminals or so running UNIX with the right cards. > > - --------------Original Message-------------- > Craig Landrum skrev: > > >Also, having just joined this list, it would appear to be > >dominated by primarily big iron types instead of us IMSAI > >and S100 junkies. Assuming there are a few out there and > >you wish to correspond, here's what I have: > > While I agree that there are a lot of rack-mount random TTL junkies here, to > some of us, S-100 and things like that are "big iron" as well. =) > y From gwynp at artware.qc.ca Thu Nov 1 17:35:01 2001 From: gwynp at artware.qc.ca (gwynp@artware.qc.ca) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:18 2005 Subject: OT Steve Jobs rant In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On 01-Nov-2001 Mike Ford wrote: > I think that is clearly open to debate. Jobs took the company in the > direction HE wanted it to go, and has at BEST had mixed results, great > success with the iMac, nothing special anyplace else, Caused USB to finaly be used? Created firewire? And I covet one of those quiet G3 cubes. -Philip From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Thu Nov 1 16:00:07 2001 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (Ben Franchuk) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:18 2005 Subject: classiccmp-digest V1 #761 References: <200110291445.IAA86899@opal.tseinc.com> <3BE1E98D.E855DE5F@monumental.com> Message-ID: <3BE1C5E7.12805691@jetnet.ab.ca> Somebody wrote > > > > While I agree that there are a lot of rack-mount random TTL junkies here, to > > some of us, S-100 and things like that are "big iron" as well. =) > > Hey some of like TTL, too bad you can't get 7400's for 5 cents each anymore. I have a great idea for a great LS computer but no 74LS189's or 74LS382's exist cheap. Ben Franchuk. -- Standard Disclaimer : 97% speculation 2% bad grammar 1% facts. "Pre-historic Cpu's" http://www.jetnet.ab.ca/users/bfranchuk Now with schematics. From vcf at vintage.org Thu Nov 1 19:19:16 2001 From: vcf at vintage.org (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:18 2005 Subject: Software and manual bounties $$$ Message-ID: I am putting up the following bounties for these software and manuals: Adobe After Effects 3.x ($30) Macromedia Sound Edit 16 1.0 ($30) Macromedia Final Cut ($30) Macromedia Freehand 5.0 ($30) GO PenPoint manual (copyright 1992) ($15) Also: MacWeek August 7, 1995 ($5) I need original copies of each, disks and manuals. If you've got them, or can find them, the bounty amount is yours (upon receipt and verification, shipping to be paid by me). Please reply directly to me: . Thanks! Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org From UberTechnoid at home.com Thu Nov 1 19:12:16 2001 From: UberTechnoid at home.com (UberTechnoid@home.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:18 2005 Subject: FloppyPUter was re:Hard-sector 51/4 disk In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20011102013145.BBLA1908.femail37.sdc1.sfba.home.com@BENCHBOX> In , on 11/01/01 at 07:13 PM, Jeff Hellige said: > Plus, without 3rd party >enhancements the 1050 had the same slow data transfer rate as the 810. >The Happy upgrade nearly tripled the rate. I'm not sure what the data >transfer rate of the GT's were using DOS XL with syncromesh turned on. The 1050 was a twitch faster but the US Doubler turned it into a rock of a double density drive and provided the boost from 19.2kbps to 54.4kbps. I've seen ads for a 108kbps upgrade in Europe but Bob P told me the timeing would be twitchy in the US. All the other 1050 update rom/ram jobs were good. I never used an 810 for much though. I got into the Atari when the 1200xl was released. That was my first 'real' computer. The maligned orphan 1200xl happened to be the best 8-bit machine Atari ever made. I've got one still and have done the 800xl rom mod, and the internal basic mod. On this particular one I tried Bob Wooley's 1200xl PBI mod. ALLL THOSE CONNECTIONS. I double checked, rechecked etc. I even redid the mod completely with a new set of chips and cable. Nothing. Not 'no video'. The machine works perfectly when connected to my Black Box or not. It just doesn't SEE the Black Box. I haven't seen any updates to the 1200xl PBI mod and I don't think it quite works. I think the PBI is not being selected or something. One more line and it would work I swear.... Anawho the machine still works fine so I left the mod installed. There are something like 40 wire connections you have to make on different sides of the motherboard plus a rom change/upgrade. I'd trash my xe in a second if I could make that 1200xl and it's beautiful keyboard work with a hard disk. > That's cool...I didn't run my own BBS until later when I put it on an >XT using QuickBBS. A friend of mine ran a board off of a PCjr using >FIDO and the single floppy drive and a 300bps modem. Needless to say, it >was pretty much for messages only. Early I ran Kenny Sallot's (The Timelord) TARDIS bbs in 83' or so. We shared an apartment. At first it was on my Percoms then on the ATR, then on a 1mb MIO and a 20mb Xebec hdd with an Adaptec ACB400a controller. The guy was a big, hamfisted, gifted programmer. He wrote the code for the Tardis himself on a modified AMIS. Useing Basic XE and the extra 64k in the 130xe? Most sane people used it as a ramdisk. Not Kenny. He wrote it so that modules and menus were stored in a single 64k string and used a lookup routine because it was a little bit faster and used less memory than a ramdisk driver. Gross huh? This guy could fit an elephant in a vw microbus. The name of the software (TDXE) stood for Technical Difficulties bbs XE. He got a ton of traffic and the board actually ran pretty well. >>CSS (Computer Software Services) is now known as New Life Electronics >>(http://www.nleaudio.com). Bob has allways made hifi stuff. A catalogue, >>information, docs, source, and other such is on the site. To this day Bob >>is STILL an Atari hacker. Something of a god he is to me. > Looks like he's not updated the site in a while. It's good to know >he's still out there though. It seems all of these communities have a >couple of people that have been elevated to near-god status. Bob Puff, Bob Wooley, and Claus Buckholtz. I'd like to erect a trio of statues 300 feet high and made of bronze in Gorky Park. I mean we won. Didn't we?..... Regards, Jeff -- ----------------------------------------------------------- Jeffrey S. Worley Asheville, NC USA 828-6984887 UberTechnoid@Home.com ----------------------------------------------------------- From mcclure3 at home.com Thu Nov 1 19:52:16 2001 From: mcclure3 at home.com (Don McClure) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:18 2005 Subject: Cable and connector source In-Reply-To: <200111011821.MAA21906@opal.tseinc.com> Message-ID: I've received a couple SGI Personal Iris' (4D/25 and 4D/35) that I'm trying to resurrect. After some hunting, I've gotten that elusive keyboard and mouse for these guys, but no keyboard cables (the 2x PI's take DB9, the 3x's 6 pin mini din). I'm want to make cables, but haven't found a local source for the necessary parts. Does anybody have any suggestions for an online source? Thanks, Don McClure Bel Air, MD From foo at siconic.com Thu Nov 1 20:17:56 2001 From: foo at siconic.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:19 2005 Subject: hard-sector 5 1/4 disk In-Reply-To: <001201c16335$0bb7dca0$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> Message-ID: On Thu, 1 Nov 2001, Richard Erlacher wrote: > Actually, I use Windows 30+ hours per day (# of machines * # of hours) > or, if you like, nearly every waking minute, and have more trouble > with disk subsystem failures on the Apples in the typical half-hour > session than I have with the Windows boxesin any given month. Now, > I'm only using three Apples at the moment, but on any given day, I > have more data losses than I can remember having over the entire 20+ > years I have been using CP/M. These Apple machines (][+, IIe, //c) > happily intechange media, so whatever, if anything, is wrong with them > is common to them all. They behave pretty much as I remember all > Apples doing, even back in the '80's when folks willingly tolerated > such behavior, which clearly reminds me of why I never liked them. Give me your address. I'll send you a head cleaning kit. You should also install air filters in your building where the Apples are housed, and it would help to stop digging up dirt near them if you're doing so. > As I said in a previous email, I'm planning to chuck the things in > order to get them off the market, and my drive a truck over them just > to protect the public, as soon as I'm done recovering the source files > and doc I've so far been unable to recover. (Today was one of the > days on which I renewed this frustrating experience, BTW.) If you send them to me I can probably do it quicker. Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org From spectre at stockholm.ptloma.edu Thu Nov 1 20:34:31 2001 From: spectre at stockholm.ptloma.edu (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:19 2005 Subject: OT Steve Jobs rant In-Reply-To: from Mike Ford at "Nov 1, 1 01:44:27 pm" Message-ID: <200111020234.SAA07586@stockholm.ptloma.edu> > I think that is clearly open to debate. Jobs took the company in the > direction HE wanted it to go, and has at BEST had mixed results, great > success with the iMac, nothing special anyplace else, and he did tremendous > damage. He killed the clone program and the alliance with IBM, and in so > doing lost droves of developers and caused a half dozen of the most loyal > companies that supported Apple to fail. Long term Jobs may be seen as the > person who sent Apple to obscurity trading a loyal base of creative people > for a fickle consumer user base. Actually, I think killing the clones was a *good* idea. They would have simply marginalised Apple the way all the Palm clones are now gobbling Palm. Rather than increasing market share for all Mac-like things, it was merely subdividing the market so that *no* company could survive. But to be honest I did lust after one of those multiprocessor Daystars :-) Besides, I'm seeing Apples in stores that would never have touched them before. There's even some Mac stuff in Circuit City, and plenty in CompUSA. And those Quicksilver G4s are pretty bloody sweet. -- ----------------------------- personal page: http://www.armory.com/~spectre/ -- Cameron Kaiser, Point Loma Nazarene University * ckaiser@stockholm.ptloma.edu -- Dalai Lama to hotdog vendor: "Make me one with everything." ---------------- From spectre at stockholm.ptloma.edu Thu Nov 1 20:37:09 2001 From: spectre at stockholm.ptloma.edu (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:19 2005 Subject: OT: Girlies in the Midst? (was Re: value of classic DEC machines?) In-Reply-To: from Sellam Ismail at "Nov 1, 1 02:53:30 pm" Message-ID: <200111020237.SAA08142@stockholm.ptloma.edu> > > There's Allison for one. I don't think we raise our little girls to > > glorify techweenie stuff. I hope my stepdaughter turns out different. > > She has Solaris Sparc, OS/2, Windows, DataGeneral MV, and Atari sticktime > > allready and she is only five! > > Does it count if I'm in touch with my feminine side? I'm sure just liking girls counts too, right? ;-) -- ----------------------------- personal page: http://www.armory.com/~spectre/ -- Cameron Kaiser, Point Loma Nazarene University * ckaiser@stockholm.ptloma.edu -- FORTUNE: You can overcome any obstacle. Try a steeplechase. ---------------- From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Thu Nov 1 20:30:44 2001 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (ajp166) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:19 2005 Subject: classiccmp-digest V1 #761 Message-ID: <009801c16348$49060150$90ec9a8d@ajp166> Those parts were never cheap! You can also use 74289s for the '189s. The '382s are an improved version of the '182. A note, if you can tolerate a slower ALU you can omit the '382s and just use ripple carry. A sub for 74189s is some of the byte wide cache rams from an old 386/486 PC as the faster ones were faster than the TTL 74189! You dont have to use the full space of the cache ram though having it would make afor an interesting register array. Allison -----Original Message----- From: Ben Franchuk To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org Date: Thursday, November 01, 2001 8:28 PM Subject: Re: classiccmp-digest V1 #761 >Somebody wrote >> > >> > While I agree that there are a lot of rack-mount random TTL junkies here, to >> > some of us, S-100 and things like that are "big iron" as well. =) >> > > >Hey some of like TTL, too bad you can't get 7400's for 5 cents each >anymore. >I have a great idea for a great LS computer but no 74LS189's or >74LS382's >exist cheap. Ben Franchuk. > >-- >Standard Disclaimer : 97% speculation 2% bad grammar 1% facts. >"Pre-historic Cpu's" http://www.jetnet.ab.ca/users/bfranchuk >Now with schematics. From gwynp at artware.qc.ca Thu Nov 1 19:41:12 2001 From: gwynp at artware.qc.ca (gwynp@artware.qc.ca) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:19 2005 Subject: Cable and connector source In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On 02-Nov-2001 Don McClure wrote: > I've received a couple SGI Personal Iris' (4D/25 and 4D/35) that I'm > trying to resurrect. After some hunting, I've gotten that elusive > keyboard and mouse for these guys, but no keyboard cables (the 2x PI's > take DB9, the 3x's 6 pin mini din). I'm want to make cables, but > haven't found a local source for the necessary parts. Does anybody have > any suggestions for an online source? 6-pin mini-DIN is what a PS/2 mouse uses. For "raw" parts how about http://www.jameco.com/ ? -Philip From spectre at stockholm.ptloma.edu Thu Nov 1 20:50:52 2001 From: spectre at stockholm.ptloma.edu (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:19 2005 Subject: hard-sector 5 1/4 disk In-Reply-To: <01C162EE.6F13ED80@mse-d03> from M H Stein at "Nov 1, 1 03:56:29 pm" Message-ID: <200111020250.SAA08864@stockholm.ptloma.edu> > This time I think I can say without making an a%% of myself that Commodore > also did that from day one; most if not all their drives had CPU's to handle > the IEEE interface ... All 8-bit Commodore disk drives have CPUs, period, IEEE or no. Some older drives have two, one for "IP" to accept commands over the Commodore serial bus and one to act as FDC. 1541s and later drives have "schizophrenic" CPUs that alternately switch between IP and FDC modes on interrupts. MFM-capable drives like 157xs and 1581s have a special FDC (usually WD-1770 or 1772-type controllers). -- ----------------------------- personal page: http://www.armory.com/~spectre/ -- Cameron Kaiser, Point Loma Nazarene University * ckaiser@stockholm.ptloma.edu -- MOVIE IDEA: The Never-Ending E-mail Signature ------------------------------ From frustum at pacbell.net Thu Nov 1 20:44:04 2001 From: frustum at pacbell.net (Jim Battle) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:19 2005 Subject: OT: Girlies in the Midst? (was Re: value of classic DEC machines?) In-Reply-To: References: <20011101221708.XGU3624.femail22.sdc1.sfba.home.com@BENCHBOX> Message-ID: <4.3.2.7.0.20011101184337.00bba6a0@postoffice.pacbell.net> At 02:53 PM 11/1/01 -0800, you wrote: >On Thu, 1 Nov 2001 UberTechnoid@home.com wrote: > > > There's Allison for one. I don't think we raise our little girls to > > glorify techweenie stuff. I hope my stepdaughter turns out different. > > She has Solaris Sparc, OS/2, Windows, DataGeneral MV, and Atari sticktime > > allready and she is only five! > >Does it count if I'm in touch with my feminine side? > >Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival It depends where you touch it. ----- Jim Battle == frustum@pacbell.net From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Thu Nov 1 17:49:37 2001 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (Ben Franchuk) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:19 2005 Subject: CPU design at the gate level References: <01C162EE.6B698320@mse-d03> Message-ID: <3BE1DF91.79FB63DE@jetnet.ab.ca> M H Stein wrote: > > Not to mention relays-> tubes (valves for tony)-> transistors -> RTL->... > > Oops, I see someone else remembers the 914; thanks, Peter. 914??? Ben Franchuk -- Standard Disclaimer : 97% speculation 2% bad grammar 1% facts. "Pre-historic Cpu's" http://www.jetnet.ab.ca/users/bfranchuk Now with schematics. From allain at panix.com Thu Nov 1 20:58:40 2001 From: allain at panix.com (John Allain) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:19 2005 Subject: OT Steve Jobs rant References: <200111020234.SAA07586@stockholm.ptloma.edu> Message-ID: <003301c1634a$46fb7960$21fe54a6@ibm23xhr06> Keeping a proprietary NonOpen HW+SW bundle going past the 1990's? Magical! And, in the private sector no less. John A. Even IBM was going full Open back in 1994. From edick at idcomm.com Thu Nov 1 21:16:10 2001 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:19 2005 Subject: hard-sector 5 1/4 disk References: Message-ID: <001e01c1634c$b8a88240$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> I'm really tired of sending things, and I've still got a few things to send to people. Besides, you didn't even want those Altos boxes I bought on your behalf a couple of years back. I ended up giving them away (to Will Jennings) just to get them out of the car. The Thrift Store didn't even want them back for free. Dick ----- Original Message ----- From: "Sellam Ismail" To: Sent: Thursday, November 01, 2001 7:17 PM Subject: Re: hard-sector 5 1/4 disk > On Thu, 1 Nov 2001, Richard Erlacher wrote: > > > Actually, I use Windows 30+ hours per day (# of machines * # of hours) > > or, if you like, nearly every waking minute, and have more trouble > > with disk subsystem failures on the Apples in the typical half-hour > > session than I have with the Windows boxesin any given month. Now, > > I'm only using three Apples at the moment, but on any given day, I > > have more data losses than I can remember having over the entire 20+ > > years I have been using CP/M. These Apple machines (][+, IIe, //c) > > happily intechange media, so whatever, if anything, is wrong with them > > is common to them all. They behave pretty much as I remember all > > Apples doing, even back in the '80's when folks willingly tolerated > > such behavior, which clearly reminds me of why I never liked them. > > Give me your address. I'll send you a head cleaning kit. You should also > install air filters in your building where the Apples are housed, and it > would help to stop digging up dirt near them if you're doing so. > > > As I said in a previous email, I'm planning to chuck the things in > > order to get them off the market, and my drive a truck over them just > > to protect the public, as soon as I'm done recovering the source files > > and doc I've so far been unable to recover. (Today was one of the > > days on which I renewed this frustrating experience, BTW.) > > If you send them to me I can probably do it quicker. > > Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ > International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org > > From edick at idcomm.com Thu Nov 1 21:21:43 2001 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:19 2005 Subject: OT Steve Jobs rant References: <200111020234.SAA07586@stockholm.ptloma.edu> Message-ID: <002401c1634d$7f05c240$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> see below, plz. Dick ----- Original Message ----- From: "Cameron Kaiser" To: Sent: Thursday, November 01, 2001 7:34 PM Subject: Re: OT Steve Jobs rant > > I think that is clearly open to debate. Jobs took the company in the > > direction HE wanted it to go, and has at BEST had mixed results, great > > success with the iMac, nothing special anyplace else, and he did tremendous > > damage. He killed the clone program and the alliance with IBM, and in so > > doing lost droves of developers and caused a half dozen of the most loyal > > companies that supported Apple to fail. Long term Jobs may be seen as the > > person who sent Apple to obscurity trading a loyal base of creative people > > for a fickle consumer user base. > > Actually, I think killing the clones was a *good* idea. They would have > simply marginalised Apple the way all the Palm clones are now gobbling > Palm. Rather than increasing market share for all Mac-like things, it was > merely subdividing the market so that *no* company could survive. But to > be honest I did lust after one of those multiprocessor Daystars :-) > Jobs' motives are simply to kill the clones so he can charge 50x his cost instead of 4x like most makers. I remember all the traffic about whether to sell the original MAC for $995 or $2995 ... Apple'd have made plenty at $995, and, if they'd been half as good as the fanatics say, they'd have had the PC market all to themselves. > > Besides, I'm seeing Apples in stores that would never have touched them > before. There's even some Mac stuff in Circuit City, and plenty in CompUSA. > And those Quicksilver G4s are pretty bloody sweet. > In the thrift stores here in Denver, you can get almost any Apple product that shows up, and there have been some pretty powerful ones, for about what a PC hard disk costs. Clearly, some people hold them in higher esteem than others. > -- > ----------------------------- personal page: http://www.armory.com/~spectre/ -- > Cameron Kaiser, Point Loma Nazarene University * ckaiser@stockholm.ptloma.edu > -- Dalai Lama to hotdog vendor: "Make me one with everything." ---------------- > > From edick at idcomm.com Thu Nov 1 21:23:19 2001 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:19 2005 Subject: hard-sector 5 1/4 disk References: <200111020250.SAA08864@stockholm.ptloma.edu> Message-ID: <002e01c1634d$b825c840$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> I saw a couple of those Commodore 1541 or so disk drives at the thrift store the other day. Are they of sufficient interest that someone might want one? Dick ----- Original Message ----- From: "Cameron Kaiser" To: Sent: Thursday, November 01, 2001 7:50 PM Subject: Re: hard-sector 5 1/4 disk > > This time I think I can say without making an a%% of myself that Commodore > > also did that from day one; most if not all their drives had CPU's to handle > > the IEEE interface ... > > All 8-bit Commodore disk drives have CPUs, period, IEEE or no. Some older > drives have two, one for "IP" to accept commands over the Commodore serial > bus and one to act as FDC. 1541s and later drives have "schizophrenic" CPUs > that alternately switch between IP and FDC modes on interrupts. MFM-capable > drives like 157xs and 1581s have a special FDC (usually WD-1770 or 1772-type > controllers). > > -- > ----------------------------- personal page: http://www.armory.com/~spectre/ -- > Cameron Kaiser, Point Loma Nazarene University * ckaiser@stockholm.ptloma.edu > -- MOVIE IDEA: The Never-Ending E-mail Signature ------------------------------ > > From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Thu Nov 1 18:17:57 2001 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (Ben Franchuk) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:19 2005 Subject: classiccmp-digest V1 #761 References: <009801c16348$49060150$90ec9a8d@ajp166> Message-ID: <3BE1E635.473DAD85@jetnet.ab.ca> ajp166 wrote: > > Those parts were never cheap! > > You can also use 74289s for the '189s. The '382s are an improved version > of the '182. A note, if you can tolerate a slower ALU you can omit the > '382s > and just use ripple carry. If the 74289's are the non inverting 16x4 rams I would use them. I plan to use 74ls382's (the ripple carry alu's). > A sub for 74189s is some of the byte wide cache rams from an old 386/486 > PC as the faster ones were faster than the TTL 74189! You dont have to use > the full space of the cache ram though having it would make afor an interesting > register array. Can't do that for three reasons 1) I am use a 16 x 12 ram ( 3 chips ) on two boards for a 8 x 24 register array. 2) I am using the 486 cache chips as main memory in my FPGA prototype 32k x 12 bits.:) 3) This was a TTL design on paper of what a computer designed in the early 1980's could have been like. That rules out 2901 bit slices. > Allison As it stands today I have a FPGA ( pat pat pat ) that is configured to have a similar layout as the ttl design and this lets me play around with the configuration. Mind you a larger TTL CPU with lights and switches is more impressive. If you like lights and switches here is a neat link http://www.angelfire.com/scifi/B205/ 'to the Bat Cave' Ben Franchuk. -- Standard Disclaimer : 97% speculation 2% bad grammar 1% facts. "Pre-historic Cpu's" http://www.jetnet.ab.ca/users/bfranchuk Now with schematics. From optimus at canit.se Thu Nov 1 09:56:31 2001 From: optimus at canit.se (Iggy Drougge) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:19 2005 Subject: hard-sector 5 1/4 disk In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <835.705T1550T10164947optimus@canit.se> Jeff Hellige skrev: > The Indus GT was one nice drive and they made it for other >machines than just the Atari line. It was interesting to sit there >and listen to it while watching the track readout change. I've never >torn one apart to check but I'm told that they used a Z80 in the >drive to control everything which would be interesting since that'd >make the chip in the drive as powerful as the main CPU of the machine >it was attached to. One example of a drive with as much CPU power as the host computer is the Commodore 1541 and similar drives. DOS? The DOS is running on the drive, not the computer. =) I've even seen demos which used the drive's processor as an extra CPU. The graphics would slow down during disk access. -- En ligne avec Thor 2.6a. MUSIK G?R MAN AV PLAST OCH KISEL! TR?D ANV?NDER MAN TILL M?BLER! From optimus at canit.se Thu Nov 1 10:03:08 2001 From: optimus at canit.se (Iggy Drougge) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:19 2005 Subject: hard-sector 5 1/4 disk In-Reply-To: <20011031225503.QFBP28108.femail14.sdc1.sfba.home.com@BENCHBOX> Message-ID: <199.705T400T10234325optimus@canit.se> UberTechnoid skrev: >I think Commodore 8-bit drives like the 1541 also had no zero sensor >right? That might explain the drives sounding like a machine gun on a reset. -- En ligne avec Thor 2.6a. From optimus at canit.se Thu Nov 1 21:26:52 2001 From: optimus at canit.se (Iggy Drougge) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:19 2005 Subject: Disk ID software Message-ID: <606.706T2600T2666105optimus@canit.se> Haven't you ever ended up with a disk which you don't know what it might contain. For all intents and purposes, it might contain the VAX/MIPS sources. =) So what do you do? Plug it into every computer where it would fit? That could become quite tiresome. So, to get to the point, is there any software out there which might identify what OS or filesystem is on a disk? It really shouldn't be too difficult, just a matter of identifying some hundred partition tables, MBRs, RDBs or boot blocks, right? -- En ligne avec Thor 2.6a. Amiga 4000/040 25MHz/64MB/20GB RetinaBLTZ3/VLab/FastlaneZ3/Ariadne/Toccata From allain at panix.com Thu Nov 1 21:34:51 2001 From: allain at panix.com (John Allain) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:19 2005 Subject: CPU design at the gate level References: <01C162EE.6B698320@mse-d03> Message-ID: <009301c1634f$5559cfc0$21fe54a6@ibm23xhr06> >Not to mention relays->tubes->transistors->RTL->... Would Transistors enter in to the picture as RTL? John A. From vze2wsvr at verizon.net Thu Nov 1 21:42:38 2001 From: vze2wsvr at verizon.net (Eric Chomko) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:19 2005 Subject: Price guide for vintage computers References: <01C162EE.7A1C5460@mse-d03> Message-ID: <3BE2162E.F173AE12@mail.verizon.net> M H Stein wrote: > Hate to prolong this already too-long thread, but that raises an > interesting point; since that's exactly what most of us were doing in > those long-ago days, hacking around the insides with our soldering > irons, is it really a sin to do the same thing today instead of keeping > them on the shelf in pristine condition? Depends on the era and the hack. I think to make an Altair work, you HAD to hack it. So, I'd rather have a hacked working machine then a pristine non-working one. But let's face it, I've also seen a hack that added functionality that had a TTL chip epoxied back-to-back with pins sticking up in the air and wires going all over. Looked like a nasty spider. On the same token I have seen a daughter card plugged into a chip slot with a few wires going to a pin row header and all daughter card wires neatly aligned. The latter looked so good, in a way it looked better than a machine made board. Eric > > > Comments? > > m > > --------------Original Message-------------- > > Date: Thu, 01 Nov 2001 10:09:02 -0500 > From: Eric Chomko > Subject: Re: Price guide for vintage computers > > > Everything is fine with what you state as there is no right or wrong way to collect, > IMO. The only exception I would take about your statements above is, if in your quest > for beat up machines that YOU would beat them up in order to get them to your liking. > I assume that is not what you do, but felt the need to mention it. Even though one's > system is theirs and they can do anything they want to with them, I personally take > exception to intentional damage of items. Again I am not saying that is what you do. > From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Thu Nov 1 18:35:13 2001 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (Ben Franchuk) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:19 2005 Subject: hard-sector 5 1/4 disk References: <200111020250.SAA08864@stockholm.ptloma.edu> Message-ID: <3BE1EA41.21B3173F@jetnet.ab.ca> Cameron Kaiser wrote: > All 8-bit Commodore disk drives have CPUs, period, IEEE or no. Some older > drives have two, one for "IP" to accept commands over the Commodore serial > bus and one to act as FDC. 1541s and later drives have "schizophrenic" CPUs > that alternately switch between IP and FDC modes on interrupts. MFM-capable > drives like 157xs and 1581s have a special FDC (usually WD-1770 or 1772-type > controllers). I was at one time hoping to pick up a Commodore Disk cheap for floppy drive for a computer I am building but never did because I did not have the docs about the interface. 5 1/4 Single Density Single Sided drives did not help either.Is the C64 drives the only external drives built other than the Color Computer drives by Radio Shack? Ben Franchuk. BTW It is too bad OS/9 was a closed source OS. -- Standard Disclaimer : 97% speculation 2% bad grammar 1% facts. "Pre-historic Cpu's" http://www.jetnet.ab.ca/users/bfranchuk Now with schematics. From jpero at sympatico.ca Thu Nov 1 16:51:36 2001 From: jpero at sympatico.ca (jpero@sympatico.ca) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:19 2005 Subject: OT: IE 5.5 SP2 "Always ask before opening this type of file" is In-Reply-To: <199.705T400T10234325optimus@canit.se> References: <20011031225503.QFBP28108.femail14.sdc1.sfba.home.com@BENCHBOX> Message-ID: <20011102034909.WVXR29382.tomts7-srv.bellnexxia.net@duron> Hi, I need it enabled again. Long google search met w/ little success. I prefer to download stuff at my choosing to different folders when downloading stuff. zip, exe, everything. Now I see why many curse the MS's stuff and this IE colorfully referred as IExploder! :-) Is there's reliable web brower aka (IE) but likes of Nutscape (4.72) that doesn't blow up at every turn? I'll try the kmeleon based on 0.9.5 mozilla. Amazingingly tiny. Cheers, Wizard From vze2wsvr at verizon.net Thu Nov 1 21:54:22 2001 From: vze2wsvr at verizon.net (Eric Chomko) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:19 2005 Subject: Price guide for vintage computers References: Message-ID: <3BE218EE.840A06C@mail.verizon.net> Tony Duell wrote: > > > Let me give an example, from an area where there is already a price > > > guide -- HP calculators. > > > > > > Now, I like HP calculators (as do all insane people ;-)). I also try to > > > obtain the most battered, scratched, etc examples I can find. I repair > > > them, get them running again, and _use_ them. > > > > Everything is fine with what you state as there is no right or wrong way to collect, > > IMO. The only exception I would take about your statements above is, if in your quest > > for beat up machines that YOU would beat them up in order to get them to your liking. > > Don't be stupid. I _like_ HP calculators, OK. I spend a lot of time > repairing and restoring them. To use. I understand. I never accused you of defacing any items. Got an HP-11 in Texas this summer at a yard sale for a buck, and it works! > > > The only reason I prefer beat-up machines is becuase I am not going to > significantly lower the value by using them. Even though HP machines were > very well made back then, they still get worn when used a lot. Markings > rub off, the silver pain on the trim wears off, and so on. And, of > course, I am the sort of person to attempt hardware modifications. > Hacking is good. > > So I'd rather have beat-up (but working) machines becuase then I am not > going to lose money by using them. Obviously I can use better-grade > machines for this without deliberately damaging them. > > If I have 2 of a particular machine, then it's tbe one in poorer > condition that I tend to use. If I only have one, then I use that > anyway, possibly doing a bit of accidental damage (scratching paint, > etc). > > But why on earth would I deliberately lower the value of my machines by > 'beating them up'. I don't. Period. > I never said that you did. > > > I get both the hacker-mentatlity and the collector-mentality and see where they are > > at odds with one another. But on the same token, given the way of things that have > > come from obscurity to everyday mainstay items; computers, and early ones at that, > > are bound to be collectibles. > > A separate rant of mine is that the computers that are most 'collectible' > are neither the ones that are technically the best, nor (IMHO) the ones > that are most historically significant. > > The former fact, though is good for people like me, as it means the > technically interesting machines tend to be relatively cheap :-) > Examples please. > > > > Hang on a second... I am only saying that _I_ don't want to treat > > > computers as an investment. If other people do, well, I guess they have a > > > right to do that. It doesn't mean I have to approve of what they are > > > doing. And if it spoils the hobby for me, you can bet I am going to moan. > > > > As you are entitled to. As for me, I'll hack and collect all the same. And I can't > > imagine a really good hack as adding any less value to a real nice existing > > collectible. Others (purists) may disagree, in their quest for mint-in-the-box, etc. > > I feel there's a place for both, actaully. In the future some people are > going to want to see 'perfect' examples of the machines. But equally, > machines that have been hacked are often more typical of the machines as > they were actually used. And of course if I can discover repair methods > from said hacks (as in finding replacements for unobtainable custom > parts) then it may help repair other machines in the future with less > 'damage' to those machines. > In the early days of kit computers some hacks were necessary. With a single trace cut and jumper SWTPC 6800's had doubled the clock speed. The reason for the original slowness was due to memory speed on the 4K RAM boards. When faster RAM came out, the hacks were made. Eric > > -tony From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Thu Nov 1 18:56:57 2001 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (Ben Franchuk) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:19 2005 Subject: CPU design at the gate level References: <01C162EE.6B698320@mse-d03> <009301c1634f$5559cfc0$21fe54a6@ibm23xhr06> Message-ID: <3BE1EF59.D545AFBE@jetnet.ab.ca> John Allain wrote: > > +AD4-Not to mention relays-+AD4-tubes-+AD4-transistors-+AD4-RTL-+AD4-... > > Would Transistors enter in to the picture as RTL? > Zuse would be rather upset that you did not have mechanical components there. http://irb.cs.tu-berlin.de/~zuse/Konrad_Zuse/en/index.html -- Standard Disclaimer : 97% speculation 2% bad grammar 1% facts. "Pre-historic Cpu's" http://www.jetnet.ab.ca/users/bfranchuk Now with schematics. From cisin at xenosoft.com Thu Nov 1 23:06:04 2001 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin (XenoSoft)) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:20 2005 Subject: Disk ID software In-Reply-To: <606.706T2600T2666105optimus@canit.se> Message-ID: On 2 Nov 2001, Iggy Drougge wrote: > Haven't you ever ended up with a disk which you don't know what it might > contain. For all intents and purposes, it might contain the VAX/MIPS sources. > =) > So what do you do? Plug it into every computer where it would fit? That could > become quite tiresome. > So, to get to the point, is there any software out there which might identify > what OS or filesystem is on a disk? It really shouldn't be too difficult, just > a matter of identifying some hundred partition tables, MBRs, RDBs or boot > blocks, right? 1) check for FM / MFM / GCR recording on the first side. You now know density. 2) check the second side to determine SS / DS 3) check whether cylinder number fields match with cylinder you are on for other than cylinder 0, to determine 48TPI / 96 TPI 4) check sector headers to determine bytes per sector, sectors per track 5) look at sectors near the beginning of disk and near middle, looking for something that resembles a DIRectory structure 6) Look at DIR entries for what kind of OS 7) look for text on disk, or ANYTHING of known or recognizable form look for which sector appears to follow other sectors for sector sequence (skew, interleave) (Look for half a worm - find a sector that ends in mid word, and find the sector where the rest of the word is) 8) look at second side and determine whether it alternates sides / goes up side A and DOWNside B / goes up side A and UP side B YES, all of those, and more are commonly used. 9) look for DIRectory entries for large files to determine block size, block pointer sizes, etc. That's a start. There are LOTS of further weirdities, many of which are OS specific (such as an MS-DOS format where the Directory is NOT on track 0), or Various "Stand-alone BASIC" formats that have differing concepts of disk center. XenoCopy-PC has provision to do #1 through #4, and gray out formats from the format selection menu that don't have the same physical parameters. -- Fred Cisin cisin@xenosoft.com XenoSoft http://www.xenosoft.com PO Box 1236 (510) 558-9366 Berkeley, CA 94701-1236 From spectre at stockholm.ptloma.edu Thu Nov 1 23:16:08 2001 From: spectre at stockholm.ptloma.edu (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:22 2005 Subject: hard-sector 5 1/4 disk In-Reply-To: <002e01c1634d$b825c840$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> from Richard Erlacher at "Nov 1, 1 08:23:19 pm" Message-ID: <200111020516.VAA11774@stockholm.ptloma.edu> > I saw a couple of those Commodore 1541 or so disk drives at the thrift store > the other day. Are they of sufficient interest that someone might want one? At least for the moment, 1541s are fairly plentiful and easy to find. The trick is if they're still in alignment, since many older versions had a knack for slipping out. I'd say about 20% of the 1541s I run across are shot in some manner, usually mechanical (which I'm not good at fixing, although simple alignment problems can sometimes be corrected with a small software program that bumps the heck out of the drive head until disks are readable again -- hey, you've got nothing to lose and it sometimes works!). -- ----------------------------- personal page: http://www.armory.com/~spectre/ -- Cameron Kaiser, Point Loma Nazarene University * ckaiser@stockholm.ptloma.edu -- Honk if you're illiterate! ------------------------------------------------- From foo at siconic.com Thu Nov 1 23:14:01 2001 From: foo at siconic.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:22 2005 Subject: hard-sector 5 1/4 disk In-Reply-To: <001e01c1634c$b8a88240$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> Message-ID: On Thu, 1 Nov 2001, Richard Erlacher wrote: > I'm really tired of sending things, and I've still got a few things to > send to people. I was half-joking, meaning I was half-serious. I can do it for you and probably a lot quicker and more successfully. The downside is I'll have to charge for the service. Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org From jss at subatomix.com Thu Nov 1 23:27:27 2001 From: jss at subatomix.com (Jeffrey S. Sharp) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:22 2005 Subject: OT: IE 5.5 SP2 "Always ask before opening this type of file" is In-Reply-To: <20011102034909.WVXR29382.tomts7-srv.bellnexxia.net@duron> Message-ID: <20011101232703.K77519-100000@lepton.subatomix.com> On Thu, 1 Nov 2001 jpero@sympatico.ca wrote: > Is there's reliable web brower aka (IE) but likes of Nutscape (4.72) > that doesn't blow up at every turn? Opera? -- Jeffrey S. Sharp jss@subatomix.com From wmsmith at earthlink.net Thu Nov 1 23:29:19 2001 From: wmsmith at earthlink.net (Wayne M. Smith) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:22 2005 Subject: OT: Girlies in the Midst? (was Re: value of classic DEC machines?) References: <20011101221708.XGU3624.femail22.sdc1.sfba.home.com@BENCHBOX> <4.3.2.7.0.20011101184337.00bba6a0@postoffice.pacbell.net> Message-ID: <008501c1635f$52fdeb20$e7a0b2d1@Smith.earthlink.net> > At 02:53 PM 11/1/01 -0800, you wrote: > >On Thu, 1 Nov 2001 UberTechnoid@home.com wrote: > > > > > There's Allison for one. I don't think we raise our little girls to > > > glorify techweenie stuff. I hope my stepdaughter turns out different. > > > She has Solaris Sparc, OS/2, Windows, DataGeneral MV, and Atari sticktime > > > allready and she is only five! > > > >Does it count if I'm in touch with my feminine side? > > > >Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival > > It depends where you touch it. > C'mon, Sellam, you can't just let that sit there. From mikeford at socal.rr.com Thu Nov 1 23:55:45 2001 From: mikeford at socal.rr.com (Mike Ford) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:22 2005 Subject: EISA - was VLB SCSI? In-Reply-To: <01C162EE.76798B20@mse-d03> Message-ID: >Hmmm, that reminds me: > >I have an EISA Compaq 486sx at a client site from which I had to remove >an add-on internal modem; ran the diagnostic/configuration program, it >says everything's fine, but when it boots it stops waiting for F1 saying >the configuration's incorrect. Press F1 to continue & everything works, > just a nuisance 'cause it can't restart after a power failure without >someone there to press F1. >Any ideas? Check the cmos battery. From mikeford at socal.rr.com Fri Nov 2 00:03:54 2001 From: mikeford at socal.rr.com (Mike Ford) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:23 2005 Subject: OffTopic: Intel's dependent on the Alpha chip... In-Reply-To: <20011101160520.E12746@wintermute.arkham.ws> References: ; from vance@ikickass.org on Thu, Nov 01, 2001 at 04:04:28PM -0500 <20011101134311.A12746@wintermute.arkham.ws> Message-ID: >> Where I used to work, there was an IBM PS/2 model 80 that was installed >> in a closet to do coordination of manufacturing equipment status and >> utilization reports when it was new. It ran DOS. It was deinstalled in >> May 2001. It had been running continuously without a crash, except for >> losses of power, and that only happened twice in the same year, in 1992. > >i wouldn't doubt it, i used to run DOS on my 386 many moons ago, and it never >gave me any trouble. it's great. it's almost entirely useless for doing more Back in the old single application days it wasn't uncommon for a program to load and basically totally take over the computer entirely or as much as the programmer cared for it to, bypassing the OS and talking directly to the hardware etc. If you do that, other than some hardware compatibility issues you can make the system as rock solid as anyone would desire, as long as hardware works well. Some games are still that way a little. Ultimately I think this is why open systems will grow in popularity. From donm at cts.com Fri Nov 2 00:28:33 2001 From: donm at cts.com (Don Maslin) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:23 2005 Subject: OT Steve Jobs rant In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Thu, 1 Nov 2001, r. 'bear' stricklin wrote: > On Thu, 1 Nov 2001, Sellam Ismail wrote: > > > My advice: don't count Apple out yet. If I had money I'd invest in their > > stock. > > I said the exact same thing in September of 1996. I was a sophomore at UW > at that time, with about $6 to my name. It would've bought me one share... > I should've done it. (: Probably couldn't have any way. You are forgetting the brokerage fee! - don > ok > r. > > From donm at cts.com Fri Nov 2 00:31:03 2001 From: donm at cts.com (Don Maslin) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:23 2005 Subject: value of classic DEC machines? In-Reply-To: <20011101221708.XGU3624.femail22.sdc1.sfba.home.com@BENCHBOX> Message-ID: On Thu, 1 Nov 2001 UberTechnoid@home.com wrote: > There's Allison for one. I don't think we raise our little girls to > glorify techweenie stuff. I hope my stepdaughter turns out different. > She has Solaris Sparc, OS/2, Windows, DataGeneral MV, and Atari sticktime > allready and she is only five! And don't forget Megan! - don > Regards, > > Jeff > > In <01C162EE.7DBF1DA0@mse-d03>, on 11/01/01 > at 04:01 PM, M H Stein said: > > >Speaking of you guys, just curious: is this an all-male hobby? No > >members of the fairer sex here? > > -- > ----------------------------------------------------------- > Jeffrey S. Worley > Asheville, NC USA > 828-6984887 > UberTechnoid@Home.com > ----------------------------------------------------------- > > From kdavis at ndx.net Fri Nov 2 01:14:17 2001 From: kdavis at ndx.net (Kirk B. Davis) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:23 2005 Subject: *Free* stuff Message-ID: <200111020714.fA27EHX07716@bender.ndx.net> I have the following stuff available for free. But you got to come and get it. I'm in the SF Bay Area (Mnt View). The systems are known to work unless listed otherwise: DecWriter II BA23's BA400 Intergraph BA23's Nice BA23 style Qbus cases with cool lights and key PRO350 -w- P/OS Boots. Was VAX Console. Have Docs. ~30 5.25 SCSI Drives Take one or take them all. 7470A Plotter Small Dec Corp Cab Has 11/23 logo. Holds 3 BA23's or one BA213 Protracer BBJ -w- Postscript Cart Makes large printouts. Have manuals and extra supplies DecStation 5000/200 Pizza Box. Should have docs someplace also. VaxStation 3100's 2 non-working Pizza boxes. May be able to get one working from both. HP Apollo 700 Pizza Box and Monitor Sparc 1 Pizza Box and Monitor RX50 Compat Drives Got a box of these. They are non-dec but are compatable. They are 1/2 height, black, new in bags. One or two to a customer. Apple II+ More powerful than a Apple I. Kirk Davis (kdavis@ndx.net) From mikeford at socal.rr.com Fri Nov 2 00:40:32 2001 From: mikeford at socal.rr.com (Mike Ford) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:23 2005 Subject: OT Steve Jobs rant In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: >> I think that is clearly open to debate. Jobs took the company in the >> direction HE wanted it to go, and has at BEST had mixed results, great >> success with the iMac, nothing special anyplace else, and he did tremendous >> damage. He killed the clone program and the alliance with IBM, and in so >> doing lost droves of developers and caused a half dozen of the most loyal >> companies that supported Apple to fail. Long term Jobs may be seen as the >> person who sent Apple to obscurity trading a loyal base of creative people >> for a fickle consumer user base. > >I think one thing is for certain: if it wasn't for Jobs, Apple by now >would probably have been a bitter memory. > >My advice: don't count Apple out yet. If I had money I'd invest in their >stock. Apple IS a bitter memory. Perhaps we can agree to disagree on this issue. ;) I'd rather have seen another road traveled. From mikeford at socal.rr.com Fri Nov 2 01:10:44 2001 From: mikeford at socal.rr.com (Mike Ford) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:23 2005 Subject: OT Steve Jobs rant In-Reply-To: <200111020234.SAA07586@stockholm.ptloma.edu> References: from Mike Ford at "Nov 1, 1 01:44:27 pm" Message-ID: >Actually, I think killing the clones was a *good* idea. They would have >simply marginalised Apple the way all the Palm clones are now gobbling Apple lost the talents, imagination, and production capability of Umax, Power Computing, Motorola, Daystar, and somebody else I forget, maybe Radius, and thats just the hardware side. Losses of software people was long term just as bad. Apple just isn't interesting to me anymore. From fernande at internet1.net Fri Nov 2 01:45:53 2001 From: fernande at internet1.net (Chad Fernandez) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:23 2005 Subject: EISA - was VLB SCSI? References: Message-ID: <3BE24F31.6CC11888@internet1.net> re-read what he said..... he isn't loosing the configuration, it justs wants attention. I have had this happen before too. I just change things until it stops :-) I think something gets crossed up when changing things around too much, and it asks for F1 to be pressed. You can start over from scratch by pulling the battery..... I have had to do that once or twice when I really screwed things up, to the point that it hung while the bios was loading :-) Chad Fernandez Michigan, USA Mike Ford wrote: > > >Hmmm, that reminds me: > > > >I have an EISA Compaq 486sx at a client site from which I had to remove > >an add-on internal modem; ran the diagnostic/configuration program, it > >says everything's fine, but when it boots it stops waiting for F1 saying > >the configuration's incorrect. Press F1 to continue & everything works, > > just a nuisance 'cause it can't restart after a power failure without > >someone there to press F1. > >Any ideas? > > Check the cmos battery. From Arno_1983 at gmx.de Fri Nov 2 03:13:18 2001 From: Arno_1983 at gmx.de (Arno Kletzander) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:23 2005 Subject: Thick Ethernet/Sun networking problems Message-ID: <11352.1004692398@www21.gmx.net> OK Pete (and everybody else, of course), I admit that was a *long* break since I brought that up last time - but now I think I have collected enough information for a new chapter...So, where did we get stuck? Pete Turnbull wrote: >>>Have you tried pinging the printer by it's IP address instead of >>>it's name? Try a broadcast ping? >> >>As we're not too familiar with the commands, how is a broadcast >>ping done? > >Instead of giving the IP address of a particular machine, give the broadcast address of the local subnet. >The broadcast address is the subnet address but with the host part set to all 1's. For example, for the >class C network 192.168.5.0, the broadcast address is 192.168.5.255. For the class B network >176.18.0.0, the broadcast address is 176.18.255.255, and for the class A network 10.0.0.0, it's >10.255.255.255. >You should get a response from every device on that segment (every device in that broadcast domain, >actually) which has an IP address within the subnet range. OK, as the IP Adress of the SUN 1+ is 111.0.0.14 and the Subnet Mask ff:00:00:00 (says so at boot): ping -s 111.255.255.255 (if everything on the network is powered up and the PC is configured for TCP/IP transfer) gets answers from: hombre (111.0.0.14);the sending machine itself papa (111.0.0.23);the SUN SPARCstation 2 on the next desk ? (111.0.0.83);a PC I've finally set up for sniffing Nothing however from the printer. :-( >>>Have you checked the printer settings to make sure it's using the >>>correct IP address? Is that set from its panel, or by RARP/BOOTP/ >>>DHCP? If the latter, it needs a server to boot. >> >> Tony Duell wrote: >>>That printer isn't attempting to get information (IP address, >>>software, whatever) from a server, is it? No idea whether that helps, but if both the SUN 1+ and the printer are powered up, an arp -a shows: pa3 111.1.0.1 at (incomplete) and out of 25 packets I sniffed (Man, am I high now ;-)), 20 were ETHER type 0806 (ARP), the remaining 5 were type 0800. See also section "Configuring the 971" (Ethernet adapter card of the printer). >Another way to see what's happening, is to use 'snoop' if you have it on one of the Suns (tcpdump for >Linux/BSD/etc is similar). You need to be logged in as root, and type "snoop -v" or "snoop -V". That >will show you (in some detail; -V gives less detail) all the traffic visisble to the le0 interface. For >example: (...) OK, as I didn't finde snoop on the Suns (and didn't want to fiddle with compiling programs by myself at this stage...), I set up a PC with a network card, packet drivers and EtherLoad 2.00. Connected this to the idle transceiver, started with -r (record traffic), powered up one SUN and recorded the first 10 packets from it, then powered up the printer and recorded until I had 25 (the printer had then finished its warmup cycle and was displaying "READY"). Got only packets sent by the SUN (MAC: 08.00.20.09.BC.D7) destined for FF.FF.FF.FF.FF.FF (everybody?). The sniffer's HEX output file decodes to a lot of unreadable characters if interpreted as ASCII; only in the second packet that appears after switching the SUN on, the host name 'hombre' is readable. Decoding the whole data to decimal numbers show up the SUN's IP adress in all packets, the address the printer should have in the eighth and every following packet. Is there a DOS based sniffer out there which will produce output as understandable as snoop? If not, and if anybody wants a go at making sense out of the output, I'll mail the files private (HEX and decimal 6kB each, data ASCII decoded 2kB)... >On most of the Ethernet-enabled printers I've come across (mostly HPs, Lexmarks, and Xeroxes) you >can do the setup from the front panel -- sometimes tedious, but usually not too hard to understand. No such menu item or anything related to Ethernet. AFAICFO (as far as I could find out, adding to the current acronymania...) on the Internet, this is the procedure for configuring the Ethernet adaptor used in this printer: #Configuring the 971 # #Connect the network cable to the appropriate connector. # #The following tasks are accomplished by the system administrator: #-Make an entry in the ARP table #-Telnet to port 2002 #-Configure the 971 in accordance with your operating system's requirements # #The 971 queue is 'raw'. # #Refer to Model 971 Network Interface User's Guide P/N M0016-490 and CalComp Ethernet Software #Guide P/N M0062-240 for information pertaining to your specific UNIX configuration. # #Refer to CalComp Model 971 Ethernet Hardware Guide P/N 501987 for additional information. However, with us there is no sys admin - so how can we 'accomplish these tasks'? I couldn't find the 'refer to' titles on the web - anybody knowing if/where they're out there, or having them & willing to scan them for me? Any help would be much appreciated. >Have you tried printing out status pages? Sometimes that will show you things like IP address, >protocols enabled, that sort of thing. Usually you can do it by holding down one of the buttons when you >turn the power on. The printer manual tells that test printing is invoked by a long press on the key PRINT FONTS/TEST after switching the printer OFF LINE. Out comes a page which does tell absolutely nothing about network settings. It must however also be possible to print out these settings because in the paperwork, we found a page which reads as follows: CalComp Internal Ethernet Adapter Revision 4.11, Datecode 12/20 1994 10:20 Burnin Value = 0 SRAM = 256K bytes, Novram = 128 bytes Ethernet address 00 C0 E2 00 0C 8E Ethernet options: Ignore Alignment Errors Auxilliary data port = 0 IP address: 111.1.0.1 Telnet password security: OFF Netware options: !!! Netware DISABLED (use 'N' menu to re-enable) !!! Auto sense ethernet type between Ethernet II and 802.3 Apple EtherTalk options: EtherTalk DISABLED !!! (use 'N' menu to re-enable ) Printer name: CalComp CCL600ES Internally stored zone name: * Ethertalk Phase 2 LPD ( remote printer queues ) options: LPD enabled Output Control-D at end of job on Postscript queues Output FF at end of job on ASCII queues Console status monitoring configured as: Telnet port only But no idea on how to get this printed again to verify the settings haven't changed (e.g. due to bitrot in the Novram)... Sorry for the long post Sincerely yours Arno Kletzander Arno_1983@gmx.de -- GMX - Die Kommunikationsplattform im Internet. http://www.gmx.net From mikeford at socal.rr.com Fri Nov 2 02:41:33 2001 From: mikeford at socal.rr.com (Mike Ford) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:23 2005 Subject: Price guide for vintage computers (long) In-Reply-To: <110f01c160c2$406a1320$0b01a8c0@ValuedCustomer> References: <3BDCA84F.7EED8C7C@jetnet.ab.ca> <00eb01c16041$cef9c260$3a92a8c0@MAGGIE> Message-ID: >change). The latest word from my publisher is that is will be available in >June next year. I expected publication for late this year, but I was a bit Ouch! Data 8 months stale when it goes to press, so much for the price guide notions. It never occured to me that this would be a "real" book. I assumed it would be a self published item, perhaps sold directly via all the weird channels of the internet. A couple people I know have been fairly successfull self publishing, and it keeps the information much fresher. Anybody remember who it is that publishes the price guides for used consumer electronics? They usually have a booth at all the CES trade shows, and the books show trade in and retail prices, that are frankly pretty kind to dealers, ie its a tool to buy for your store using it. From technos at nerdland.org Fri Nov 2 04:16:13 2001 From: technos at nerdland.org (Jim) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:23 2005 Subject: EISA - was VLB SCSI? Message-ID: <01C1635D.7E4E8CF0.technos@nerdland.org> Easy. Just replace the bios battery. Prolly a lithium button cell the size of a nickle in a holder near the BIOS, if I remember right. Jim On Thursday, November 01, 2001 3:57 PM, M H Stein [SMTP:mhstein@usa.net] wrote: > Hmmm, that reminds me: > > I have an EISA Compaq 486sx at a client site from which I had to remove > an add-on internal modem; ran the diagnostic/configuration program, it > says everything's fine, but when it boots it stops waiting for F1 saying > the configuration's incorrect. Press F1 to continue & everything works, > just a nuisance 'cause it can't restart after a power failure without > someone there to press F1. > Any ideas? > > Can give more details off-list if anyone can help. > > m > > ----------Original Message---------- > Date: 1 Nov 2001 1:11:30 +0100 > From: "Iggy Drougge" > Subject: Re: VLB SCSI? > > ...What I dislike about either system is that it's so awfully software-based. > IMO you can't really can't call MCA or EISA plug'n'play... > > From technos at nerdland.org Fri Nov 2 04:30:44 2001 From: technos at nerdland.org (Jim) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:23 2005 Subject: EISA - was VLB SCSI? Message-ID: <01C1635F.856DC0D0.technos@nerdland.org> I did read what he said. Sometimes in the early Compaq 486's (and also late 486 Olivetti/NCR/AT&T) you get the error. Used to have a slew of the monsters at work we got cheap to replace dying IBM's. We replaced them with.. Wait for it.. I'll give you a hint, we were bought by AT&T.. NCR 3230's.. Ugh. At least at EOL we could re-chip them, crank the clocks and toss regulators in for employees that wanted one. Nothing like seeing the message "486DX4 running at OVER 100mhz" and chuckling. But you are right, it could be that too. Reset to defaults and reconfig can't hurt. Just I've seen far more (FAR MORE!) with a weak battery. Jim On Friday, November 02, 2001 2:46 AM, Chad Fernandez [SMTP:fernande@internet1.net] wrote: > re-read what he said..... he isn't loosing the configuration, it justs > wants attention. I have had this happen before too. I just change > things until it stops :-) I think something gets crossed up when > changing things around too much, and it asks for F1 to be pressed. You > can start over from scratch by pulling the battery..... I have had to do > that once or twice when I really screwed things up, to the point that it > hung while the bios was loading :-) > > Chad Fernandez > Michigan, USA > > Mike Ford wrote: > > > > >Hmmm, that reminds me: > > > > > >I have an EISA Compaq 486sx at a client site from which I had to remove > > >an add-on internal modem; ran the diagnostic/configuration program, it > > >says everything's fine, but when it boots it stops waiting for F1 saying > > >the configuration's incorrect. Press F1 to continue & everything works, > > > just a nuisance 'cause it can't restart after a power failure without > > >someone there to press F1. > > >Any ideas? > > > > Check the cmos battery. From dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com Fri Nov 2 07:03:36 2001 From: dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com (Douglas Quebbeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:23 2005 Subject: Thick Ethernet/Sun networking problems Message-ID: <7A9BACCEF0171D4FB77019F5104CDD3722585D@jeffserver.tegjeff.com> > OK Pete (and everybody else, of course), I admit that was a *long* break > since I brought that up last time - but now I think I have collected enough > information for a new chapter...So, where did we get stuck? [..much liberal snippage, no further notices issued..] > The printer manual tells that test printing is invoked by a long press on > the key PRINT FONTS/TEST after switching the printer OFF LINE. Out comes a page > which does tell absolutely nothing about network settings. It must however > also be possible to print out these settings because in the paperwork, we > found a page which reads as follows: > > IP address: 111.1.0.1 > Telnet password security: OFF Ok, likely this won't work for Calcomp, but HP stuff uses a default IP address of 192.0.0.192 for their network interfaces. Try setting up a separate computer and give it an address on the 192.0.0.0 network. Then try pinging it... If that doesn't work, this next idea will take some time and preparation. Get a Windows 2000 or Windows XP machine. They allow you to change the machine's network address on the fly (can Linux do this?) using the NetShell (NETSH.EXE) facility. The syntax is: netsh interface ip set address "Local Area Connection" static Write a BASIC program that writes out a batch file. Have it iterate through the possible range of network addresses, sending a broadcast ping for each network. Have the output from ping redirected to a file using the append mode ('>>'). Search through the file until you find the network address to which the printer responded. Then make a small change to the BASIC program to iterate through all the node addresses on that network until you find the IP address of the printer. Set up the Windows box to be on that network, TELNET to the printer, change the IP address back to 111.1.0.1 and you should be all set. hth, -doug quebbeman From menadeau at mediaone.net Fri Nov 2 07:13:17 2001 From: menadeau at mediaone.net (Michael Nadeau) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:23 2005 Subject: Price guide for vintage computers (long) References: <3BDCA84F.7EED8C7C@jetnet.ab.ca> <00eb01c16041$cef9c260$3a92a8c0@MAGGIE> Message-ID: <002901c163a0$267b0c40$0b01a8c0@ValuedCustomer> Yes, I had hoped for a January/Feb. release date. But, a guide is just a guide. The numbers may or may not change for some items between now and when the book comes out, but the relative values should stay consistent. Again, the book is much more than a price guide and should be well worth its cover price (not set in stone yet, but the publisher wants it to be as affordable as possible). I thought about self-publishing, but decided against it because there is no easy way for someone like me to reach all the potential readers. I would have had to spend too much time and money on promotion, advertising, etc. I hope it was the right decision. You are probably thinking of the Blue Book guides (www.bluebook.com), which are not aimed at the collector/enthusiast market at all. They are, as you described, guides for trade-in value for electronics dealers. --Mike --Mike Michael Nadeau Editorial Services 603-893-2379 ----- Original Message ----- From: "Mike Ford" To: Sent: Friday, November 02, 2001 3:41 AM Subject: Re: Price guide for vintage computers (long) > >change). The latest word from my publisher is that is will be available in > >June next year. I expected publication for late this year, but I was a bit > > Ouch! Data 8 months stale when it goes to press, so much for the price > guide notions. > > It never occured to me that this would be a "real" book. I assumed it would > be a self published item, perhaps sold directly via all the weird channels > of the internet. A couple people I know have been fairly successfull self > publishing, and it keeps the information much fresher. > > Anybody remember who it is that publishes the price guides for used > consumer electronics? They usually have a booth at all the CES trade shows, > and the books show trade in and retail prices, that are frankly pretty kind > to dealers, ie its a tool to buy for your store using it. > > > From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Fri Nov 2 07:17:39 2001 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (Allison) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:23 2005 Subject: classiccmp-digest V1 #761 Message-ID: <000a01c163a0$c11b6600$6b7b7b7b@ajp> From: Ben Franchuk >If the 74289's are the non inverting 16x4 rams I would use them. I plan >to use 74ls382's (the ripple carry alu's). The 74289 is also the same part/pinout save for instead of open collector they are tristate outputs. The 74382 is not an ALU, it's a carry look ahead generator. The 74381 is an ALU. >Can't do that for three reasons >1) I am use a 16 x 12 ram ( 3 chips ) on two boards for a 8 x 24 >register array. Not enough reason there, so you dont use the full byte width. >2) I am using the 486 cache chips as main memory in my FPGA prototype >32k x 12 bits.:) So the cache rams are easy enough to find more. >3) This was a TTL design on paper of what a computer designed in the >early 1980's could have been like. That rules out 2901 bit slices. BZZZT!!! By ealy 1980 the 2901 was already passe', as were TTL cpus. I presume by that you really meant early (very early) 1970s as the 2901 is a 1970s part. Also the 2901 is directly traceable to 74181, 74189 like parts. >configuration. Mind you a >larger TTL CPU with lights and switches is more impressive. If you like >lights I already have a real PDP-8. ;) Allison From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Fri Nov 2 07:21:02 2001 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (Allison) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:23 2005 Subject: CPU design at the gate level Message-ID: <001701c163a1$396b43a0$6b7b7b7b@ajp> From: John Allain To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org Date: Thursday, November 01, 2001 10:55 PM Subject: Re: CPU design at the gate level >>Not to mention relays->tubes->transistors->RTL->... > >Would Transistors enter in to the picture as RTL? RTL Resistor Transistor Logic. Think very simple, basic gate is the NOR, power hungry and SLOW. The basic two input NOR is two transistors and three resistors. I have a fair collection of RTL (914, 900, 923, MC7xx) from the '67ish time frame and have built DMMs and the like using them. Allison From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Fri Nov 2 07:24:00 2001 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (Allison) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:23 2005 Subject: EISA - was VLB SCSI? Message-ID: <003001c163a1$a3856f40$6b7b7b7b@ajp> Bad nicad for the CMOS, It's loosing a bit here or ther and checksumming. That forces a bios error. I had two like that, replaced the nicad and Viola! Allison -----Original Message----- From: Chad Fernandez To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org Date: Friday, November 02, 2001 3:06 AM Subject: Re: EISA - was VLB SCSI? >re-read what he said..... he isn't loosing the configuration, it justs >wants attention. I have had this happen before too. I just change >things until it stops :-) I think something gets crossed up when >changing things around too much, and it asks for F1 to be pressed. You >can start over from scratch by pulling the battery..... I have had to do >that once or twice when I really screwed things up, to the point that it >hung while the bios was loading :-) > >Chad Fernandez >Michigan, USA > >Mike Ford wrote: >> >> >Hmmm, that reminds me: >> > >> >I have an EISA Compaq 486sx at a client site from which I had to remove >> >an add-on internal modem; ran the diagnostic/configuration program, it >> >says everything's fine, but when it boots it stops waiting for F1 saying >> >the configuration's incorrect. Press F1 to continue & everything works, >> > just a nuisance 'cause it can't restart after a power failure without >> >someone there to press F1. >> >Any ideas? >> >> Check the cmos battery. > From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Fri Nov 2 07:26:39 2001 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (Allison) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:23 2005 Subject: OT: IE 5.5 SP2 "Always ask before opening this type of file"is Message-ID: <004901c163a2$064ac620$6b7b7b7b@ajp> Replace Nyetscrap 4.72 with 4.08, much more stable. Or if you want more fun install IE4.02 (comx/activx crippled) and turn off VBS scripting. Allison -----Original Message----- From: Jeffrey S. Sharp To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org Date: Friday, November 02, 2001 12:44 AM Subject: Re: OT: IE 5.5 SP2 "Always ask before opening this type of file"is >On Thu, 1 Nov 2001 jpero@sympatico.ca wrote: > >> Is there's reliable web brower aka (IE) but likes of Nutscape (4.72) >> that doesn't blow up at every turn? > >Opera? > >-- >Jeffrey S. Sharp >jss@subatomix.com > > From uban at ubanproductions.com Fri Nov 2 07:41:10 2001 From: uban at ubanproductions.com (Tom Uban) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:23 2005 Subject: Price guide for vintage computers (long) In-Reply-To: <002901c163a0$267b0c40$0b01a8c0@ValuedCustomer> References: <3BDCA84F.7EED8C7C@jetnet.ab.ca> <00eb01c16041$cef9c260$3a92a8c0@MAGGIE> Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.20011102074110.008b44d0@ubanproductions.com> Mike, Would you post the "contents" for your book? I am curious what range of machine it might be covering? --tnx --tom At 08:13 AM 11/2/01 -0500, you wrote: >Yes, I had hoped for a January/Feb. release date. But, a guide is just a >guide. The numbers may or may not change for some items between now and when >the book comes out, but the relative values should stay consistent. Again, >the book is much more than a price guide and should be well worth its cover >price (not set in stone yet, but the publisher wants it to be as affordable >as possible). > >I thought about self-publishing, but decided against it because there is no >easy way for someone like me to reach all the potential readers. I would >have had to spend too much time and money on promotion, advertising, etc. I >hope it was the right decision. > >You are probably thinking of the Blue Book guides (www.bluebook.com), which >are not aimed at the collector/enthusiast market at all. They are, as you >described, guides for trade-in value for electronics dealers. > >--Mike > >--Mike > >Michael Nadeau >Editorial Services >603-893-2379 >----- Original Message ----- >From: "Mike Ford" >To: >Sent: Friday, November 02, 2001 3:41 AM >Subject: Re: Price guide for vintage computers (long) > > >> >change). The latest word from my publisher is that is will be available >in >> >June next year. I expected publication for late this year, but I was a >bit >> >> Ouch! Data 8 months stale when it goes to press, so much for the price >> guide notions. >> >> It never occured to me that this would be a "real" book. I assumed it >would >> be a self published item, perhaps sold directly via all the weird channels >> of the internet. A couple people I know have been fairly successfull self >> publishing, and it keeps the information much fresher. >> >> Anybody remember who it is that publishes the price guides for used >> consumer electronics? They usually have a booth at all the CES trade >shows, >> and the books show trade in and retail prices, that are frankly pretty >kind >> to dealers, ie its a tool to buy for your store using it. >> >> >> > > > From nbsdbob at weedcon1.cropsci.ncsu.edu Fri Nov 2 09:06:46 2001 From: nbsdbob at weedcon1.cropsci.ncsu.edu (NetBSD Bob) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:23 2005 Subject: OffTopic: Intel's dependent on the Alpha chip... In-Reply-To: from "One Without Reason" at Nov 01, 2001 04:04:28 PM Message-ID: <200111021506.fA2F6kl20824@weedcon1.cropsci.ncsu.edu> > Where I used to work, there was an IBM PS/2 model 80 that was installed > in a closet to do coordination of manufacturing equipment status and > utilization reports when it was new. It ran DOS. It was deinstalled in > May 2001. It had been running continuously without a crash, except for > losses of power, and that only happened twice in the same year, in 1992. I can't resist this one....(:+}}... I ran a Model 80 with AIX 1 from 1988 through 2000, with nary a burp, except for an HD that dived after about 5 years. Dang, them PS/2 Model 80's are indestructible, just like Olden VAXentoyz.....(:+\\...... The machine in question is still running in my basement, after I bought it from our surplus for 5 buckeroos, alongside the MVII critters.....(:+}}.... > Peace... Sridhar Right On! Good ol' Unixy Junque just trucks along, forever! Bob From dtwright at uiuc.edu Fri Nov 2 09:11:03 2001 From: dtwright at uiuc.edu (Dan Wright) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:23 2005 Subject: Thick Ethernet/Sun networking problems In-Reply-To: <7A9BACCEF0171D4FB77019F5104CDD3722585D@jeffserver.tegjeff.com>; from dhquebbeman@theestopinalgroup.com on Fri, Nov 02, 2001 at 08:03:36AM -0500 References: <7A9BACCEF0171D4FB77019F5104CDD3722585D@jeffserver.tegjeff.com> Message-ID: <20011102091103.L3444575@uiuc.edu> Douglas Quebbeman said: > > Ok, likely this won't work for Calcomp, but HP stuff uses a default > IP address of 192.0.0.192 for their network interfaces. Try setting > up a separate computer and give it an address on the 192.0.0.0 network. > Then try pinging it... > > If that doesn't work, this next idea will take some time and preparation. > Get a Windows 2000 or Windows XP machine. They allow you to change the > machine's network address on the fly (can Linux do this?) using the NetShell > (NETSH.EXE) facility. The syntax is: any unix-y thing can do this using 'ifconfig'. ifconfig > Write a BASIC program that writes out a batch file. Have it iterate > through the possible range of network addresses, sending a broadcast > ping for each network. Have the output from ping redirected to a file > using the append mode ('>>'). Search through the file until you find > the network address to which the printer responded. Then make a small > change to the BASIC program to iterate through all the node addresses > on that network until you find the IP address of the printer. Set up > the Windows box to be on that network, TELNET to the printer, change > the IP address back to 111.1.0.1 and you should be all set. then you could do this using a shell script ;-) > > hth, > -doug quebbeman - Dan Wright (dtwright@uiuc.edu) (http://www.uiuc.edu/~dtwright) -] ------------------------------ [-] -------------------------------- [- ``Weave a circle round him thrice, / And close your eyes with holy dread, For he on honeydew hath fed, / and drunk the milk of Paradise.'' Samuel Taylor Coleridge, Kubla Khan -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 229 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20011102/2ae0777e/attachment.bin From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Fri Nov 2 09:14:56 2001 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (Ben Franchuk) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:23 2005 Subject: classiccmp-digest V1 #761 References: <000a01c163a0$c11b6600$6b7b7b7b@ajp> Message-ID: <3BE2B870.BCCA054B@jetnet.ab.ca> Allison wrote: > The 74289 is also the same part/pinout save for instead of open collector > they are > tristate outputs. OK I would have used a generic 16x4 non inverting memory. > The 74382 is not an ALU, it's a carry look ahead generator. The 74381 is an > ALU. I have a 74F382 data sheet -- this is a ALU. > BZZZT!!! By ealy 1980 the 2901 was already passe', as were TTL cpus. > I presume by that you really meant early (very early) 1970s as the 2901 > is a 1970s part. That is hard to say what era my cpu is from as I have to fake it from what I would of built in 1980's. LS TTL was just becoming popular. 8 bit micros where the big thing.I used a PDP8/e and a PDP8/S in 1983. > Also the 2901 is directly traceable to 74181, 74189 like parts. The 2901 is a nice bit slice chip. If I had used it in my alu I would have fewer states per instruction, but then I would have needed to go to micro-code style architecture. This design was random logic where no PROMS need ever be programed. >I already have a real PDP-8. ;) I should have known :) > Allison Ben Franchuk. -- Standard Disclaimer : 97% speculation 2% bad grammar 1% facts. "Pre-historic Cpu's" http://www.jetnet.ab.ca/users/bfranchuk Now with schematics. From zmerch at 30below.com Fri Nov 2 09:28:34 2001 From: zmerch at 30below.com (Roger Merchberger) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:23 2005 Subject: OT: IE 5.5 SP2 "Always ask before opening this type of file"is In-Reply-To: <004901c163a2$064ac620$6b7b7b7b@ajp> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20011102101206.0241e6f8@mail.30below.com> Rumor has it that Allison may have mentioned these words: >Replace Nyetscrap 4.72 with 4.08, much more stable. >Or if you want more fun install IE4.02 (comx/activx crippled) >and turn off VBS scripting. > >Allison [snippety] Honestly - if you have the horsepower, go Netscape 6.1+ (6.2 *just* came out - the best I got from them was 28Kbyte/second downloads yesterday - nuttin' better than a pair of T1s to the backbone for our area... ;-) Amazingly rock solid, and dang fast - but not for the fainthearted (or faintcpu'd). I'll admit that 6.0 *just* *plain* *sucked* - from what I've seen with 6.1, they didn't do a thing but clean up bugs. Can't tell what they did with 6.2, either - except it seems to start a little faster than 6.1. 6.1 took a little while to get started, but once it was, it flew! (No, I don't use that auto-start system-tray crap... Of course, the program runs for several days at a time, so maybe I should try it.) After installing 6.1 a day or two after it came out, I never even bothered to install anything 4.x -- and I 1) am hard to impress and 2) hate to upgrade. IIRC, it crashed *once* since I'd installed it - and I cannot guarantee that it wasn't my fault, as I installed it 4 times in a row... [[to get all of the files necessary for offline installation to put it on a CD - I'm co-owner of an ISP, so we needed it for future installs...]] Awrighty - I'll shutup from my rambling and go back to the dark shadows... ;-) Roger "Merch" Merchberger P.S. - I have not tried it in a "low memory" situation - with the price of RAM nowadays, the lowest config I've run it on was Celery 400 OC'd to 450, 128Meg RAM and it was fine if you didn't leave it run for a week... Now I have 384Meg and it's stayed stable for for a week at a time... 64Meg or less and you *definitely* wanna stick with 4.08. From mrbill at mrbill.net Fri Nov 2 09:38:22 2001 From: mrbill at mrbill.net (Bill Bradford) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:23 2005 Subject: DEC 9642 enclosure? In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20011101141428.02b05920@mcmanis.com> References: <20011101030421.D28646@mrbill.net> <5.1.0.14.0.20011101141428.02b05920@mcmanis.com> Message-ID: <20011102093822.F21035@mrbill.net> On Thu, Nov 01, 2001 at 02:23:37PM -0800, Chuck McManis wrote: > Sigh, its too bad that these systems will end up stranded. Strangely, if > there were a SCSI interface in it there would be people clamoring for it > :-) Its all in how you look at it. I discovered that you can answer "yes" > to all offers to give you stuff, then start up a incoming stream and > produce a fairly complete/nice collection out of it. Well, worst case scenario, I *do* have room for it, but the wife has been clamoring for me to clean up the collection lately. It wont get stranded/ scrapped. I refuse to toss out hardware; I'll give it away before I"ll toss it. (well, I *did* toss a huge Sun 4/690MP VME backplane/chassis/blower assembly, but only after a year of trying to find a home for it..) During "big garbage pickup day" the neighbors had couches, beds, etc, out on their front yards.. I had VME chassis. 8-) Bill -- Bill Bradford mrbill@mrbill.net Austin, TX From ernestls at home.com Fri Nov 2 09:46:10 2001 From: ernestls at home.com (Ernest) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:23 2005 Subject: Triumph Adler Alphatronic PC questions In-Reply-To: <3BE2B870.BCCA054B@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: I have an Alphatronic PC with the two (F1/F2) external floppy drives but I'm missing the ribbon cables that connect the drives to the PC itself and the F2 drive to the F1 drive. There is a company near me that can make custom cables if they don't have what I need in stock but I wanted to check and see if there is anything unusual about the cables before I try to find them. Do they have any cross-over wires or are they straight-thru, etc.? I'm missing the power cable that goes between the F1 and F2 drives also. Is it straight-thru or does it have any cross-over wires, etc.? Also, does anyone have a user manual and/or system disks for this system? I'll pay for a copies if anyone has them. Thanks. Ernest From edick at idcomm.com Fri Nov 2 10:02:13 2001 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:23 2005 Subject: classiccmp-digest V1 #761 References: <009801c16348$49060150$90ec9a8d@ajp166> <3BE1E635.473DAD85@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <000d01c163b7$bc991ac0$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> The '289's are inverting, though tristate, just like the '189's. TI made a '219 which was a noninverting tristate version of this same sort and pinout. ISTR that there was yet another part, albeit not of the normal 74xxx sort, that was a non-inverting version as well, but I can't, for the life of me, rememberit (senior moment). These days, it's both cheaper and easier (faster, too) to use a CMOS ram of considerably larger size. Dick ----- Original Message ----- From: "Ben Franchuk" To: Sent: Thursday, November 01, 2001 5:17 PM Subject: Re: classiccmp-digest V1 #761 > ajp166 wrote: > > > > Those parts were never cheap! > > > > You can also use 74289s for the '189s. The '382s are an improved version > > of the '182. A note, if you can tolerate a slower ALU you can omit the > > '382s > > and just use ripple carry. > > If the 74289's are the non inverting 16x4 rams I would use them. I plan > to use 74ls382's (the ripple carry alu's). > > > A sub for 74189s is some of the byte wide cache rams from an old 386/486 > > PC as the faster ones were faster than the TTL 74189! You dont have to use > > the full space of the cache ram though having it would make afor an interesting > > register array. > > Can't do that for three reasons > 1) I am use a 16 x 12 ram ( 3 chips ) on two boards for a 8 x 24 > register array. > 2) I am using the 486 cache chips as main memory in my FPGA prototype > 32k x 12 bits.:) > 3) This was a TTL design on paper of what a computer designed in the > early 1980's > could have been like. That rules out 2901 bit slices. > > > Allison > As it stands today I have a FPGA ( pat pat pat ) that is configured to > have a similar > layout as the ttl design and this lets me play around with the > configuration. Mind you a > larger TTL CPU with lights and switches is more impressive. If you like > lights > and switches here is a neat link http://www.angelfire.com/scifi/B205/ > 'to the Bat Cave' > > Ben Franchuk. > -- > Standard Disclaimer : 97% speculation 2% bad grammar 1% facts. > "Pre-historic Cpu's" http://www.jetnet.ab.ca/users/bfranchuk > Now with schematics. > > From edick at idcomm.com Fri Nov 2 10:06:00 2001 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:23 2005 Subject: hard-sector 5 1/4 disk References: Message-ID: <001901c163b8$43b5ba40$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> Ah! ... There's the rub! Dick ----- Original Message ----- From: "Sellam Ismail" To: Sent: Thursday, November 01, 2001 10:14 PM Subject: Re: hard-sector 5 1/4 disk > On Thu, 1 Nov 2001, Richard Erlacher wrote: > > > I'm really tired of sending things, and I've still got a few things to > > send to people. > > I was half-joking, meaning I was half-serious. I can do it for you and > probably a lot quicker and more successfully. The downside is I'll have > to charge for the service. > > Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ > International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org > > From fernande at internet1.net Fri Nov 2 10:25:00 2001 From: fernande at internet1.net (Chad Fernandez) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:23 2005 Subject: EISA - was VLB SCSI? References: <01C1635F.856DC0D0.technos@nerdland.org> Message-ID: <3BE2C8DC.9CF2B260@internet1.net> Jim, The NCR's were Microchannel weren't they? Jim wrote: > NCR 3230's.. Ugh. At least at EOL we could re-chip them, crank the > clocks and toss regulators in for employees that wanted one. Nothing > like seeing the message "486DX4 running at OVER 100mhz" and > chuckling. Ok, I guess if you've actually expereinced that, I can't very well tell you that your wrong :-) > But you are right, it could be that too. Reset to defaults and reconfig > can't hurt. Just I've seen far more (FAR MORE!) with a weak battery. > > Jim Chad Fernandez Michigan, USA From freds at monarch-info.com Fri Nov 2 09:02:13 2001 From: freds at monarch-info.com (Frederick Scholl) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:23 2005 Subject: TEST Message-ID: <025a01c163af$5ae26e60$8201a8c0@onsiteaccess.net> This is a test that I understand to use this forum Fred Scholl -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20011102/196788ec/attachment.html From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Fri Nov 2 10:40:50 2001 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (Allison) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:23 2005 Subject: classiccmp-digest V1 #761 Message-ID: <001f01c163bd$22ae46a0$6b7b7b7b@ajp> Ah yes but, the CMOS ram would cause one problem for the design... Common IO. The 74189/289 had seperate IO unless I've suffered a major brain cramp. Allison -----Original Message----- From: Richard Erlacher To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org Date: Friday, November 02, 2001 11:28 AM Subject: Re: classiccmp-digest V1 #761 >The '289's are inverting, though tristate, just like the '189's. TI made a '219 >which was a noninverting tristate version of this same sort and pinout. ISTR >that there was yet another part, albeit not of the normal 74xxx sort, that was a >non-inverting version as well, but I can't, for the life of me, rememberit >(senior moment). These days, it's both cheaper and easier (faster, too) to use >a CMOS ram of considerably larger size. > >Dick > >----- Original Message ----- >From: "Ben Franchuk" >To: >Sent: Thursday, November 01, 2001 5:17 PM >Subject: Re: classiccmp-digest V1 #761 > > >> ajp166 wrote: >> > >> > Those parts were never cheap! >> > >> > You can also use 74289s for the '189s. The '382s are an improved version >> > of the '182. A note, if you can tolerate a slower ALU you can omit the >> > '382s >> > and just use ripple carry. >> >> If the 74289's are the non inverting 16x4 rams I would use them. I plan >> to use 74ls382's (the ripple carry alu's). >> >> > A sub for 74189s is some of the byte wide cache rams from an old 386/486 >> > PC as the faster ones were faster than the TTL 74189! You dont have to use >> > the full space of the cache ram though having it would make afor an >interesting >> > register array. >> >> Can't do that for three reasons >> 1) I am use a 16 x 12 ram ( 3 chips ) on two boards for a 8 x 24 >> register array. >> 2) I am using the 486 cache chips as main memory in my FPGA prototype >> 32k x 12 bits.:) >> 3) This was a TTL design on paper of what a computer designed in the >> early 1980's >> could have been like. That rules out 2901 bit slices. >> >> > Allison >> As it stands today I have a FPGA ( pat pat pat ) that is configured to >> have a similar >> layout as the ttl design and this lets me play around with the >> configuration. Mind you a >> larger TTL CPU with lights and switches is more impressive. If you like >> lights >> and switches here is a neat link http://www.angelfire.com/scifi/B205/ >> 'to the Bat Cave' >> >> Ben Franchuk. >> -- >> Standard Disclaimer : 97% speculation 2% bad grammar 1% facts. >> "Pre-historic Cpu's" http://www.jetnet.ab.ca/users/bfranchuk >> Now with schematics. >> >> > From rigdonj at intellistar.net Fri Nov 2 10:57:55 2001 From: rigdonj at intellistar.net (Joe) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:23 2005 Subject: Tektronix 4052 item on E-bay Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20011102115755.007a8600@mailhost.intellistar.net> "Tektronix 4052A GPIB Programming Guide Item # 1658079197" From enrico.badella at softstar.it Fri Nov 2 11:54:17 2001 From: enrico.badella at softstar.it (Enrico Badella) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:23 2005 Subject: looking for DEC ISA Ethernet cards References: Message-ID: <3BE2DDC9.DB484392@softstar.it> Hello all, I finally go my Alpha AXPpci33 to boot OpenVMS 7.2.. quite a task. Now I would love to get i on the net but I can't find anywhere a supported ISA Ethernet card. The docs refer to DE204-AB, DE205-AB and DE435-AA. I have quite a collection of Unibus cards, othe rISA and PC stuff. Anybody willing to trade? Better if in Europe to reduce shipping costs TIA e. ========================================================================== Enrico Badella email: enrico.badella@softstar.it Soft*Star srl eb@vax.cnuce.cnr.it InterNetworking Specialists tel: +39-011-746092 Via Camburzano 9 fax: +39-011-746487 10143 Torino, Italy Wanted, for hobbyist use, any type of PDP and microVAX hardware,software, manuals,schematics,etc. and DEC-10 docs or manuals ========================================================================== From SUPRDAVE at aol.com Fri Nov 2 12:13:44 2001 From: SUPRDAVE at aol.com (SUPRDAVE@aol.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:23 2005 Subject: EISA - was VLB SCSI? Message-ID: <84.1dd389e3.29143c58@aol.com> In a message dated 11/2/2001 10:35:49 AM Central Standard Time, fernande@internet1.net writes: << The NCR's were Microchannel weren't they? Jim wrote: > NCR 3230's.. Ugh. At least at EOL we could re-chip them, crank the > clocks and toss regulators in for employees that wanted one. Nothing > like seeing the message "486DX4 running at OVER 100mhz" and > chuckling. Ok, I guess if you've actually expereinced that, I can't very well tell you that your wrong :-) > But you are right, it could be that too. Reset to defaults and reconfig > can't hurt. Just I've seen far more (FAR MORE!) with a weak battery. > > Jim Chad Fernandez Michigan, USA >> yes, I know that certain NCR models were microchannel. I have a 3300 series that's a 486dx and microchannel. very similar to a PS/2 9577. From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Fri Nov 2 12:14:45 2001 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (Allison) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:23 2005 Subject: classiccmp-digest V1 #761 Message-ID: <001801c163ca$41c72b80$6b7b7b7b@ajp> From: Ben Franchuk > >> The 74289 is also the same part/pinout save for instead of open collector >> they are tristate outputs. > >OK I would have used a generic 16x4 non inverting memory. The 74189 is inverting, though adding an external inverting buffer is NBD. If y ou want a part that wasn't inverting then you have to use the 4x4 register file (74170) times for to get nearly the same thing. The 4x4 however allowed was a two port device. >> The 74382 is not an ALU, it's a carry look ahead generator. The 74381 is an >> ALU. > >I have a 74F382 data sheet -- this is a ALU. Really, my TI databooks have it as the lookahead carry generator for the 381 ALU. >> BZZZT!!! By ealy 1980 the 2901 was already passe', as were TTL cpus. >> I presume by that you really meant early (very early) 1970s as the 2901 >> is a 1970s part. > >That is hard to say what era my cpu is from as I have to fake it from >what >I would of built in 1980's. LS TTL was just becoming popular. 8 bit >micros >where the big thing.I used a PDP8/e and a PDP8/S in 1983. Your still off by at least 5 years. 1976 is more the LS ttl era. By early 1980s the designs for CPUs were going to gate arrays. >> Also the 2901 is directly traceable to 74181, 74189 like parts. > >The 2901 is a nice bit slice chip. If I had used it in my alu I would >have >fewer states per instruction, but then I would have needed to go to >micro-code style architecture. This design was random logic where >no PROMS need ever be programed. That was late 60s very early 70s design. By late 70s microcode was common or at least state machines. The availability of bit slices by the early 70s influenced this greatly. >>I already have a real PDP-8. ;) > >I should have known :) ;-) Allison From dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com Fri Nov 2 12:26:57 2001 From: dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com (Douglas Quebbeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:23 2005 Subject: TEST Message-ID: <7A9BACCEF0171D4FB77019F5104CDD3722585E@jeffserver.tegjeff.com> You can improve upon your understanding greatly if you would be kind as to change the settings on your e-mail program to PLAIN TEXT mode instead of RICH TEXT and/or HTML mode, as it is currently set. Thank you in advance for the compliance, -doug quebbeman -----Original Message----- From: Frederick Scholl [mailto:freds@monarch-info.com] Sent: Friday, November 02, 2001 10:02 AM To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org Subject: TEST This is a test that I understand to use this forum Fred Scholl From PHodara at netwave.com Fri Nov 2 12:47:06 2001 From: PHodara at netwave.com (Hodara, Paul) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:23 2005 Subject: FW: $200 Dollar Reward for TOPS PC to MAC Software Message-ID: Skipped content of type multipart/alternative-------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: Paul Hodara (E-mail).vcf Type: application/octet-stream Size: 3954 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20011102/a950a48b/PaulHodaraE-mail.obj -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: Chess.gif Type: image/gif Size: 2947 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20011102/a950a48b/Chess.gif From rmeenaks at olf.com Fri Nov 2 12:48:05 2001 From: rmeenaks at olf.com (Ram Meenakshisundaram) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:23 2005 Subject: various sun equipment available Message-ID: <3BE2EA65.B519D4EC@olf.com> Hi, Mike Connor has a lot of IPXs and IPCs and a Sparc10 clone (Axil) and a Sparc 20 plus a whole lot of other sun stuff. The IPXs and IPCs he is giving away for free. Please contact him at mconnor@cosmocom.com. Location is Long Island, NY... Cheers, Ram -- ,,,, /'^'\ ( o o ) -oOOO--(_)--OOOo------------------------------------- | Ram Meenakshisundaram | | Senior Software Engineer | | OpenLink Financial Inc | | .oooO Phone: (516) 227-6600 x267 | | ( ) Oooo. Email: rmeenaks@olf.com | ---\ (----( )-------------------------------------- \_) ) / (_/ From technos at nerdland.org Fri Nov 2 12:53:08 2001 From: technos at nerdland.org (Jim) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:23 2005 Subject: EISA - was VLB SCSI? Message-ID: <01C163A5.B4EFC290.technos@nerdland.org> Nope. VLB/ISA. Jim On Friday, November 02, 2001 11:25 AM, Chad Fernandez [SMTP:fernande@internet1.net] wrote: > > Jim, > > The NCR's were Microchannel weren't they? > > Jim wrote: > > NCR 3230's.. Ugh. At least at EOL we could re-chip them, crank the > > clocks and toss regulators in for employees that wanted one. Nothing > > like seeing the message "486DX4 running at OVER 100mhz" and > > chuckling. > > Ok, I guess if you've actually expereinced that, I can't very well tell > you that your wrong :-) > > > But you are right, it could be that too. Reset to defaults and reconfig > > can't hurt. Just I've seen far more (FAR MORE!) with a weak battery. > > > > Jim > > Chad Fernandez > Michigan, USA From PHodara at netwave.com Fri Nov 2 13:11:18 2001 From: PHodara at netwave.com (Hodara, Paul) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:23 2005 Subject: FW: $200 Dollar Reward for TOPS PC to MAC Software Message-ID: $200 Dollar Reward for TOPS PC to MAC Software I am looking for this discontinued piece of software that allows PCs to connect to MACs via appletalk. I need one copy of the PC software preferably two (each with unique serial numbers). We are doing performance analysis. Thanks Paul Hodara NetWave Technologies, Inc. EMAIL: phodara@netwave.com URL: http://www.netwave.com TEL: 212-685-2009 x106 FAX: 212-685-2141 From bills at adrenaline.com Fri Nov 2 13:06:39 2001 From: bills at adrenaline.com (Bill Sudbrink) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:23 2005 Subject: $200 Dollar Reward for TOPS PC to MAC Software In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Skipped content of type multipart/alternative-------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: image/gif Size: 2947 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20011102/dc92d397/attachment.gif From pete at dunnington.u-net.com Fri Nov 2 13:19:00 2001 From: pete at dunnington.u-net.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:23 2005 Subject: Thick Ethernet/Sun networking problems In-Reply-To: Douglas Quebbeman "RE: Thick Ethernet/Sun networking problems" (Nov 2, 8:03) References: <7A9BACCEF0171D4FB77019F5104CDD3722585D@jeffserver.tegjeff.com> Message-ID: <10111021919.ZM29368@mindy.dunnington.u-net.com> On Nov 2, 8:03, Douglas Quebbeman wrote: > Ok, likely this won't work for Calcomp, but HP stuff uses a default > IP address of 192.0.0.192 for their network interfaces. Try setting > up a separate computer and give it an address on the 192.0.0.0 network. > Then try pinging it... Which is really slightly naughty, as 192.0.0.0/16 is NOT in the private address range (that would be 192.168.0.0/16). But that's not relevant to Arno's problem :-) > If that doesn't work, this next idea will take some time and preparation. > Get a Windows 2000 or Windows XP machine. They allow you to change the > machine's network address on the fly (can Linux do this?) MOST systems other than Windows can do this :-) It's not a good idea if you need to go through all the networks numbers (see end of this post for the reason, if you've not realised yet). If you want to try the Class A addresses, it would be rather easier to do on one of the Suns, just by writing a script that cycles through the network numbers in a loop, issues an ifconfig for each iteration, and a broadcast ping (with the number of packets emitted restricted to a quantity of 1 or 2). Assuming the devices of interest are too old to understand CIDR, there are three ranges of network numbers to consider: class A, class B, and class C; ie those with 8-bit network numbers and 24-bit host parts, 16/16, and 24/8. The quick and dirty way is to run the script once for each class, so that's networks 1..127 with subnet mask 255.0.0.0, networks 128.0 ... 191.255 with netmask 255.255.0.0, and 192.0.0 ... 223.255.255 with 255.255.255.0 (the rest are multicast or reserved addresses). Of course, if the printer's IP address has been really scrambled, it might end up in the reserved range, and I can't think of an easy way to get at that. Unless the Sun has something like the range(1) command, it's probably easiest to make a file containing each list (call the files netsA, netsB, netsC, for example) and then do something like this in the script: #!/bin/sh for i in `cat netsA` do ifconfig le0 down ifconfig le0 ${i}.0.0.2 broadcast ${i}.255.255.255 netmask 255.0.0.0 up ping -c 2 ${i}.255.255.255 2>&1 >/tmp/responses done Check the syntax of ifconfig (and where it is, it might not be in the normal PATH) as I've not used an old Sun for a while. Ditto for ping. It's in /usr/etc/ping on my IRIX boxes, /sbin/ping on recent Solaris, but I can't remember where it is in SunOS. Don't be tempted to simplify the sript by using the "local broadcast" address of 255.255.255.255 every time, as some things deliberately do not respond to that (my HP printers don't, nor do my switches). Don't forget to restore the original address with "ifconfig le0 111.0.0.1 broadcast 111.255.255.255 netmask 255.0.0.0 up" when you've finished :-) It'll take a while to work through the class C range, because ping will take a while to time out on each network number :-) Say two seconds per network, thats (224-192) * 256 * 256 * 2 seconds, about 4 million seconds, or just over 48 days. Oh, and you'll probably want to refine my shell script to eliminate the unneccesary lines generated by ping recording responses from the Sun itself, and the headers. You don't need 12 million extra lines in the output :-) -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager University of York From bills at adrenaline.com Fri Nov 2 13:32:06 2001 From: bills at adrenaline.com (Bill Sudbrink) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:24 2005 Subject: $200 Dollar Reward for TOPS PC to MAC Software Message-ID: Sorry. Intended that reply to be off-list. Sorry again, Bill From dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com Fri Nov 2 13:41:13 2001 From: dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com (Douglas Quebbeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:24 2005 Subject: $200 Dollar Reward for TOPS PC to MAC Software Message-ID: <7A9BACCEF0171D4FB77019F5104CDD3722585F@jeffserver.tegjeff.com> > $200 Dollar Reward for TOPS PC to MAC Software > > > I am looking for this discontinued piece of software that allows PCs to > connect to MACs via appletalk. I need one copy of the PC software preferably > two (each with unique serial numbers). COPSTalk, which was (I think) the descendent of TOPS, was available for public download from the URL: http://www.downloadsafari.com/Files/utilsnetmisc/C/COPSTalk.html but I didn't have any luck. PC/MacLAN, from Miramar Systems, is still commercially available. I have some licensed copies of an old version (runs on Win95 only) I'd let go for $200. Or, you could buy fully licensed new versions for about $159 each. They're at: http://miramarsys.com I've also got COPSTalk laying around somewhere... Regards, -doug q From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Nov 2 13:10:22 2001 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:24 2005 Subject: hard-sector 5 1/4 disk In-Reply-To: <3BE1EA41.21B3173F@jetnet.ab.ca> from "Ben Franchuk" at Nov 1, 1 05:35:13 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1868 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20011102/b69b66d3/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Nov 2 13:15:54 2001 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:24 2005 Subject: hard-sector 5 1/4 disk In-Reply-To: <200111020250.SAA08864@stockholm.ptloma.edu> from "Cameron Kaiser" at Nov 1, 1 06:50:52 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 754 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20011102/c09e4efc/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Nov 2 13:22:29 2001 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:24 2005 Subject: Price guide for vintage computers In-Reply-To: <3BE218EE.840A06C@mail.verizon.net> from "Eric Chomko" at Nov 1, 1 10:54:22 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1655 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20011102/808eb381/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Nov 2 13:26:28 2001 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:24 2005 Subject: hard-sector 5 1/4 disk In-Reply-To: <200111020516.VAA11774@stockholm.ptloma.edu> from "Cameron Kaiser" at Nov 1, 1 09:16:08 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1026 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20011102/1d7d55d1/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Nov 2 13:43:44 2001 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:24 2005 Subject: classiccmp-digest V1 #761 In-Reply-To: <000a01c163a0$c11b6600$6b7b7b7b@ajp> from "Allison" at Nov 2, 1 08:17:39 am Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 246 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20011102/c105c1c8/attachment.ksh From freds at monarch-info.com Fri Nov 2 14:32:56 2001 From: freds at monarch-info.com (Frederick Scholl) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:24 2005 Subject: Reward for Ethernet Switch Message-ID: <008a01c163dd$8e3a6b40$8201a8c0@onsiteaccess.net> I am looking for an ethernet switch, circa 1991, that has removable blades with one channel per blade. Not sure if this exists, but if you have one, I can pay $75-100, depending on condition. Fred Scholl -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20011102/96d9af8f/attachment.html From lemay at cs.umn.edu Fri Nov 2 13:59:36 2001 From: lemay at cs.umn.edu (Lawrence LeMay) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:24 2005 Subject: Thick Ethernet/Sun networking problems In-Reply-To: <11352.1004692398@www21.gmx.net> Message-ID: <200111021959.NAA00690@caesar.cs.umn.edu> > OK Pete (and everybody else, of course), I admit that was a *long* break > since I brought that up last time - but now I think I have collected enough > information for a new chapter...So, where did we get stuck? I missed the original thread. The subject line didnt mention anything about printers, so i didnt read em ;) So, it would help me if you briefly restated the exact problem. I'm assuming you have a calcomp plotter (but i dont know which one), that it has a M971 ethernet card, and that you dont know what the IP address is set to. And that you insist on using the ethernet port, versis connecting it via parallel port to a unix server. Well, one way of solving this problem is to reset the M971 card back to factory defaults, and then setting the IP address. Unfortunately I dont have the manuals, but if you have the manuals you should be able to look some of this up. There is a reset jumper on the ethernet card, so you power down the printer, remove the card, install the jumper, power it up, then repeat to remove the jumper (assuming i recall the procedure correctly). If the IP is reset back to 0.0.0.0, then the second step is to use the reverse-ARP procedure to set the IP address. And i really dont recall that procedure off the top of my head, but you need the LAN address from the M971 card, which you then add to the ARP tables on a unix host on the local subnet, etc, etc... There is a certain pattern to the indicator lights on the M971 that tells you that it is waiting to recieve the RARP, if you can find that extremely thin M971 manual. Once you get the IP set via RARP method, telnet to the printer and use the menu to set it permanently. This would be the method for a Calcomp DrawingMaster 800 with M971 ethernet card installed. -Lawrence LeMay From vcf at vintage.org Fri Nov 2 13:56:27 2001 From: vcf at vintage.org (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:24 2005 Subject: NEW BOUNTY ADDED! (Software and manual bounties $$$) Message-ID: I'm adding the following bounty to my list below: Xsoft TabWorks (any version though 1.0 is preferred) ($50) Xsoft is/was a division of Xerox. TabWorks was a tab pallet windows interface that ran on Windows 3.0. It was sold to Compaq and then to Citadel. --- I am putting up the following bounties for these software and manuals: Adobe After Effects 3.x ($30) Macromedia Sound Edit 16 1.0 ($30) Macromedia Final Cut ($30) Macromedia Freehand 5.0 ($30) GO PenPoint manual (copyright 1992) ($15) Also: MacWeek August 7, 1995 ($5) I need original copies of each, disks and manuals. If you've got them, or can find them, the bounty amount is yours (upon receipt and verification, shipping to be paid by me). Please reply directly to me: . Thanks! Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org From lemay at cs.umn.edu Fri Nov 2 14:07:01 2001 From: lemay at cs.umn.edu (Lawrence LeMay) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:24 2005 Subject: Thick Ethernet/Sun networking problems In-Reply-To: <7A9BACCEF0171D4FB77019F5104CDD3722585D@jeffserver.tegjeff.com> Message-ID: <200111022007.OAA00746@caesar.cs.umn.edu> Configuring the M971 and information on the LED codes, is available from this link: http://www.calgraphinc.com/Support/unix_networking.html -Lawrence LeMay From mikeford at socal.rr.com Fri Nov 2 13:39:29 2001 From: mikeford at socal.rr.com (Mike Ford) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:24 2005 Subject: OT: IE 5.5 SP2 "Always ask before opening this type of file"is In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20011102101206.0241e6f8@mail.30below.com> References: <004901c163a2$064ac620$6b7b7b7b@ajp> Message-ID: >Honestly - if you have the horsepower, go Netscape 6.1+ (6.2 *just* came Since this is so far off topic, but still of interest to a few... I am also running Netscape 6.2 on my fast PC system, and GASP after having a seemingly unfixable problem with IE 6 freezing on a few specific web sites I like to visit EVERY time I clicked them, and the straw was that some IE program runs at boot time to make sure IE is the default browser so clicking in the favorites half the time went to IE and then a hard freeze and reboot. So I removed IE from my 98se system using eradicator 2001. Anybody else running windows without IE? From mikeford at socal.rr.com Fri Nov 2 13:22:48 2001 From: mikeford at socal.rr.com (Mike Ford) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:24 2005 Subject: Picture books of old computers In-Reply-To: <3.0.5.32.20011102074110.008b44d0@ubanproductions.com> References: <002901c163a0$267b0c40$0b01a8c0@ValuedCustomer> <3BDCA84F.7EED8C7C@jetnet.ab.ca> <00eb01c16041$cef9c260$3a92a8c0@MAGGIE> Message-ID: We have a bunch of computer museum people on this list, I am curious if any of their related organizations plan on doing a coffee table picture book of old computers? It would be nice if something REALLY comprehensive was available. Does anyone even have a "list" of all the computers ever made? That might be a pretty good start, an all text web page with every computer and model in a long list, then make it links to more data, etc. etc. Hmmm, I just may know someone.... (they do software for people who sell memory with the selector thing) From mikeford at socal.rr.com Fri Nov 2 13:27:14 2001 From: mikeford at socal.rr.com (Mike Ford) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:24 2005 Subject: OffTopic: Intel's dependent on the Alpha chip... In-Reply-To: <200111021506.fA2F6kl20824@weedcon1.cropsci.ncsu.edu> References: from "One Without Reason" at Nov 01, 2001 04:04:28 PM Message-ID: >> Where I used to work, there was an IBM PS/2 model 80 that was installed >I can't resist this one....(:+}}... I ran a Model 80 with AIX 1 from 1988 >through 2000, with nary a burp, except for an HD that dived after about 5 The model 95 though is not only indestructible, its pretty, especially from the back with the bronze internal case, very tech looking. From UberTechnoid at home.com Fri Nov 2 14:18:06 2001 From: UberTechnoid at home.com (UberTechnoid@home.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:24 2005 Subject: Price guide for vintage computers In-Reply-To: <3BE2162E.F173AE12@mail.verizon.net> Message-ID: <20011102202232.NQAP2781.femail15.sdc1.sfba.home.com@BENCHBOX> That sound like my interpretation of the Claus Buckholtz 256k Atari800xl 'dead bug' upgrade. Dead bug because the ic's were upside down, legs splayed.... After looking at his world-famous upgrade and the ICD 'Rambo 256k' upgrade which was on a nice little board, I realized they are one-and-the-same. I made a cross between the two I called the 'Sly Stallone 512k 800xl'. It used a peice of perf board and a wire-wrap socket. I filed the pins on the socket a bit so it would plug into a 16-pin (74ls158?) socket on the xl's motherboard. It looked a LOT nicer than the dead bug version and used fewer parts than ICD's version. Saved two headers and a bit of ribbon cable. Regards, Jeff In <3BE2162E.F173AE12@mail.verizon.net>, on 11/01/01 at 10:42 PM, Eric Chomko said: >But let's face it, I've also seen a hack that added functionality that >had a TTL chip epoxied back-to-back with pins sticking up in the air and >wires going all over. Looked like a nasty spider. On the same token I >have seen a daughter card plugged into a chip slot with a few wires going >to a pin row header and all daughter card wires neatly aligned. The >latter looked so good, in a way it looked better than a machine made >board. -- ----------------------------------------------------------- Jeffrey S. Worley Asheville, NC USA 828-6984887 UberTechnoid@Home.com ----------------------------------------------------------- From UberTechnoid at home.com Fri Nov 2 14:22:55 2001 From: UberTechnoid at home.com (UberTechnoid@home.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:24 2005 Subject: hard-sector 5 1/4 disk In-Reply-To: <3BE1EA41.21B3173F@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <20011102202344.ITRF25338.femail2.sdc1.sfba.home.com@BENCHBOX> Get an Atari drive instead. The interface of the C= drives is probably just as well documented, but the drives were BUTT SLOW. The Atari drives were factors faster. Regards, Jeff >I was at one time hoping to pick up a Commodore Disk cheap for floppy >drive for a computer I am building but never did because I did not have >the docs about the interface. 5 1/4 Single Density Single Sided drives >did not help either.Is the C64 drives the only external drives built >other than the Color Computer drives by Radio Shack? >Ben Franchuk. >BTW It is too bad OS/9 was a closed source OS. -- ----------------------------------------------------------- Jeffrey S. Worley Asheville, NC USA 828-6984887 UberTechnoid@Home.com ----------------------------------------------------------- From mikeford at socal.rr.com Fri Nov 2 14:19:16 2001 From: mikeford at socal.rr.com (Mike Ford) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:24 2005 Subject: FW: $200 Dollar Reward for TOPS PC to MAC Software In-Reply-To: Message-ID: > $200 Dollar Reward for TOPS PC to MAC Software > > I am looking for this discontinued piece of software that allows PCs to >connect to MACs via appletalk. I need one copy of the PC software >preferably two (each with unique serial numbers). We are doing >performance analysis. Thanks Hah, trying to entice us with money. Well we know that won't work on our group right? From UberTechnoid at home.com Fri Nov 2 14:45:33 2001 From: UberTechnoid at home.com (UberTechnoid@home.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:24 2005 Subject: hard-sector 5 1/4 disk In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20011102204558.ITMP23808.femail11.sdc1.sfba.home.com@BENCHBOX> I thought they used a 6507 or 6510 processor... Regards, Jeff In , on 11/02/01 at 07:15 PM, ard@p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) said: >But every serial-bus drive I've worked on (1541, 1570, 1571) only has 1 >(6502) CPU in it. -- ----------------------------------------------------------- Jeffrey S. Worley Asheville, NC USA 828-6984887 UberTechnoid@Home.com ----------------------------------------------------------- From jhellige at earthlink.net Fri Nov 2 07:17:32 2001 From: jhellige at earthlink.net (Jeff Hellige) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:24 2005 Subject: OS9 or Flex09 on 8" disk needed Message-ID: <01Nov2.155752est.119205@gateway.mediacen.navy.mil> Does anyone have OS9 or Flex09, preferably for the SWTPc, on 8" floppy or a means of making one on 8" floppy? I've finally gotten a nice 8" cabinet with a pair of Siemens' 800-2 drives as well as a bare pair of Shugart 851's and would like to give them a whirl with the DMF2 floppy controller installed in my S/09. This was it's last configuration, running OS9 with the Microware support ROMs on the MP-09A. I could even provide the 8" disks if someone was willing to make them. Thanks Jeff -- Home of the TRS-80 Model 2000 FAQ File http://www.cchaven.com http://www.geocities.com/siliconvalley/lakes/6757 From dtwright at uiuc.edu Fri Nov 2 14:48:10 2001 From: dtwright at uiuc.edu (Dan Wright) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:24 2005 Subject: NEW BOUNTY ADDED! (Software and manual bounties $$$) In-Reply-To: ; from vcf@vintage.org on Fri, Nov 02, 2001 at 11:56:27AM -0800 References: Message-ID: <20011102144810.Q3444575@uiuc.edu> Vintage Computer Festival said: > > I'm adding the following bounty to my list below: > > Xsoft TabWorks (any version though 1.0 is preferred) ($50) I have a manual and i have an installation of it on a compaq aero 4/33c laptop. I wonder if it's possible to get it off that machine in a state where it would be usable on another? > > Xsoft is/was a division of Xerox. TabWorks was a tab pallet windows > interface that ran on Windows 3.0. It was sold to Compaq and then to > Citadel. > > --- > > I am putting up the following bounties for these software and manuals: > > Adobe After Effects 3.x ($30) > Macromedia Sound Edit 16 1.0 ($30) > Macromedia Final Cut ($30) > Macromedia Freehand 5.0 ($30) > GO PenPoint manual (copyright 1992) ($15) > > Also: > > MacWeek August 7, 1995 ($5) > > I need original copies of each, disks and manuals. If you've got them, or > can find them, the bounty amount is yours (upon receipt and verification, > shipping to be paid by me). > > Please reply directly to me: . > > Thanks! > > Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ > International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org > - Dan Wright (dtwright@uiuc.edu) (http://www.uiuc.edu/~dtwright) -] ------------------------------ [-] -------------------------------- [- ``Weave a circle round him thrice, / And close your eyes with holy dread, For he on honeydew hath fed, / and drunk the milk of Paradise.'' Samuel Taylor Coleridge, Kubla Khan -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 229 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20011102/b6755e8b/attachment.bin From UberTechnoid at home.com Fri Nov 2 14:46:58 2001 From: UberTechnoid at home.com (UberTechnoid@home.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:24 2005 Subject: hard-sector 5 1/4 disk In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20011102205217.OPCI2781.femail15.sdc1.sfba.home.com@BENCHBOX> I'm pretty sure he isn't looking for those type drives. I think he wanted to use an external ttl-signal level drive that had it's own on board controller. That limits things to the Atari, Commodore line pretty much as they are dirt common. Other machines that used 'smart' floppy drives might be the Adam and Aquarius. I never saw a drive for the Aquarius, but there was supposed to be one. The COCO and Ti99 had parallel buss drive interfaces as did the Apple (sorta). If I were doing this, I'd probably try to get hold of a Trak, Percom, Atr8000, or other drive which is able to run standard mechs as slaves. Regards, Jeff In , on 11/02/01 at 07:10 PM, ard@p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) said: >> I was at one time hoping to pick up a Commodore Disk cheap for floppy >> drive for a computer I am building but never did because I did not have >> the docs about the interface. 5 1/4 Single Density Single Sided drives >I don't know which series of CBM drive you were considering (the 2 main >interfaces being IEEE-488 and the serial interface used on the C64/C128), > but enough docs exist for you to use either type with other computers. >The serial protocol is pretty easy to bit-bang using a PIA/VIA type chip, > and the commands to send to the drive are documented. >I've managed to use an 8050 (IEEE-488 interface) drive on a non-commodore > host, so it's clearly possible. >> did not help either.Is the C64 drives the only external drives built >> other than the Color Computer drives by Radio Shack? >No, there are many machines that take external floppy drives. >Off the top of my head : >TRS80 M1 (all drives external), M3/M4 (drives 2, 3 external), CoCo Apple >][ >There's an external drive for the Apple Mac/Mac+ series. >Acorn BBC micro and Electron >FTS-88 (2 8" drives in a separate box to the main machine) >Intel MDS800 (ditto) >Xerox Daybreak (a 5.25" drive in a separate box that sits on top of the >CPU tower) >Most minis -- PDP8, PDP11, P800 series, etc (it's very rare to find a >disk drive that mounts in the CPU box on such machines, although it may >share a rack with the CPU) >IBM PC (!). (The original IBM disk controller card has a DC37 socket on >the back for 2 external disk drives) >Oric 1/Atmos (external 3" drives, the controller card is mounted inside >the case of drive 0) >Tatung Einstein (2 3" drives mounted internally, connector on the back >for 2 external 3" / 3.5" / 5,25" drives) >And doubtless many, many, more. >> Ben Franchuk. >> BTW It is too bad OS/9 was a closed source OS. >I'll second that :-) Nicest 8-bit OS I ever used. >-tony -- ----------------------------------------------------------- Jeffrey S. Worley Asheville, NC USA 828-6984887 UberTechnoid@Home.com ----------------------------------------------------------- From optimus at canit.se Fri Nov 2 14:37:52 2001 From: optimus at canit.se (Iggy Drougge) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:24 2005 Subject: CPU design at the gate level In-Reply-To: <3BE02397.FF7C5E55@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <469.706T2600T12976581optimus@canit.se> Ben Franchuk skrev: >Never used the stuff. Since they don't make TTL any more I kind was >forced into using FPGA's. :). What? My local electronics shop owner tells me that it isn't as high-profile nowadays, but it's quite possible to buy 74 series circuits in any good electronics shop, right? -- En ligne avec Thor 2.6a. Anv?nd g?rna mitt staket, fast du beh?ver nog fr?scha upp det lite. Lupin III, Lupin den otrolige (Lupin III vs. fukusei ningen), TMS 1978 From foo at siconic.com Fri Nov 2 14:56:40 2001 From: foo at siconic.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:24 2005 Subject: Picture books of old computers In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Fri, 2 Nov 2001, Mike Ford wrote: > We have a bunch of computer museum people on this list, I am curious > if any of their related organizations plan on doing a coffee table > picture book of old computers? It would be nice if something REALLY > comprehensive was available. Does anyone even have a "list" of all the > computers ever made? That might be a pretty good start, an all text > web page with every computer and model in a long list, then make it > links to more data, etc. etc. Hans Pufal used to have the Comprehensive Computer Catalogue but that doesn't seem to be up anymore :( There was also another one called The Old Computers List but it seems to be gone too. Dang, I really need to clean up the VCF Link Library. Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org From pete at dunnington.u-net.com Fri Nov 2 15:16:02 2001 From: pete at dunnington.u-net.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:24 2005 Subject: Thick Ethernet/Sun networking problems In-Reply-To: Lawrence LeMay "Re: Thick Ethernet/Sun networking problems" (Nov 2, 13:59) References: <200111021959.NAA00690@caesar.cs.umn.edu> Message-ID: <10111022116.ZM29509@mindy.dunnington.u-net.com> On Nov 2, 13:59, Lawrence LeMay wrote: > Well, one way of solving this problem is to reset the M971 card back to > factory defaults, and then setting the IP address. [...] > If the IP is reset back to 0.0.0.0, then the second step is to use the > reverse-ARP procedure to set the IP address. Thanks, Lawrence. I've had a quick look at the URL you posted in your followup, and it seems to me that unless Arno's printer (plotter? I can't remember either) is bust, that procedure is what he needs. I was about to reply to Arno's post, and was thinking about (R)ARP while having my dinner. It's a bit odd the way it says to "make an entry in the ARP table" because that's NOT what you do, exactly. The ARP table on a host has nothing to do with providing responses to other things that need information in order to boot, it's just used to map MAC addresses (Ethernet addresses, typically) to IP addresses when talking to other hosts known by IP address. But I'm sure it's just a case of Calcomp getting the terminolgy slightly wrong. What it obviously (to me!) means is to set up a host on the same subnet (actually in the same collision domain) which will respond to a RARP request. The way you do *that* on a Unix host is to make an entry in /etc/ethers, containing a line with the hostname that matches the MAC address you want to provide the IP address to. Then you also need an entry in the /etc/hosts file, to map the hostname to the IP address. Finally, make sure the rarpd daemon is running. Usually it will be started by a line in one of the startup files in /etc/rc.local, /etc/rc.net, /etc/rc.2 or similar place (it's in the /etc/init.d/network script in SysV UNIX). For Arno, this means: create /etc/ethers if it doesn't exist append a line with printer name and MAC (Ethernet) address /etc/hosts must already exist for the Sun to work, so append a line for the printer start up rarpd if it's not already running (the order in which you do these shouldn't matter) If we call the printer "calcomp", the line in /etc/ethers is: 00:C0:E2:00:0C:8E calcomp and the line in /etc/hosts is 111.1.0.1 calcomp and the command to start rarpd is probably /usr/etc/rarpd or /sbin/rarpd possibly followed by '-l' and the name of a logfile in which to record what it does, and/or the name of the interface on which to listen (le0, for Arno's Sun). -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager University of York From pete at dunnington.u-net.com Fri Nov 2 15:19:29 2001 From: pete at dunnington.u-net.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:24 2005 Subject: hard-sector 5 1/4 disk In-Reply-To: UberTechnoid@home.com "Re: hard-sector 5 1/4 disk" (Nov 2, 15:45) References: <20011102204558.ITMP23808.femail11.sdc1.sfba.home.com@BENCHBOX> Message-ID: <10111022119.ZM29538@mindy.dunnington.u-net.com> On Nov 2, 15:45, UberTechnoid@home.com wrote: > I thought they used a 6507 or 6510 processor... Same family, same instruction set as 6502, just a different bus structure. Some of them have reduced address busses, one or two may lack one or two instructions (? I think), some have different clock requirements, but all are part of the R65xx family. The original R6502 data sheets lists the members and their differences. -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager University of York From optimus at canit.se Fri Nov 2 15:18:22 2001 From: optimus at canit.se (Iggy Drougge) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:24 2005 Subject: Ecomstation.org (was Re: An Organization (was: Do we have a VAXorganization?)) In-Reply-To: <20011031235522.G75885-100000@lepton.subatomix.com> Message-ID: <939.706T1100T13384913optimus@canit.se> Jeffrey S. Sharp skrev: >On 1 Nov 2001, Iggy Drougge wrote: >> Jeff, and the other participants in the list, is it really necessary to >> quote >> 250 lines to add three of your own? And on the top, at that. >Uh, have you ever *read* any of my messages? I pay *particular* attention >to quoting only what is needed to establish context, and I put my reply >*below* the quoted text. What have you been smoking, man? I snipped the specific message, since quoting it all over again would have been cruel. I could look it up for you if you like, though. The only possible explanation for your claim that you put your text below the quoted message would be that you're standing on your head. =) >This flame war has been done before. I'm only participating here because >I was individually lambasted. Methinks IHBT... IHBT? -- En ligne avec Thor 2.6a. "It's better to have loved and lost, than to be gang raped in a Turkish prison." From optimus at canit.se Fri Nov 2 15:13:22 2001 From: optimus at canit.se (Iggy Drougge) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:24 2005 Subject: VLB SCSI? In-Reply-To: <3BE0D6C8.8F88ADA4@internet1.net> Message-ID: <769.706T1100T13334233optimus@canit.se> Chad Fernandez skrev: >They are better than Plug an Play. PnP doesn't let you choose any >settings. Not having jumpers is a nice way to have it too. Plus not >all PS/2s use the referance partition (IML). I shouldn't use the term plug'n'play, since that's some PC trademark with a lot of strings attached. I'm thinking of the more general principle rather than some specific implementation. And after all, if it's possible to set options from the reference disk or partition, it is quite possible to set them from the driver software as well. The only advantage of the reference partition is that it's rather OS- independent. >Maybe you would like Microchannel in the RS6000 line..... they don't use >adf files I have heard! Really? -- En ligne avec Thor 2.6a. From dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com Fri Nov 2 15:30:35 2001 From: dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com (Douglas Quebbeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:24 2005 Subject: Thick Ethernet/Sun networking problems Message-ID: <7A9BACCEF0171D4FB77019F5104CDD37225861@jeffserver.tegjeff.com> > On Nov 2, 8:03, Douglas Quebbeman wrote: [..snip..] > > If that doesn't work, this next idea will take some time and preparation. > > Get a Windows 2000 or Windows XP machine. They allow you to change the > > machine's network address on the fly (can Linux do this?) > > MOST systems other than Windows can do this :-) > > It's not a good idea if you need to go through all the networks numbers > (see end of this post for the reason, if you've not realised yet). Someone else pointed out IFCONFIG; sorry, not a *nix guru. I tolerate *nix as Multics' poor deformed little brother. A useful tool, tho, no disputing that, and no Multics in sight to brag about any more. :( And as to the other thing you're alluding to, I never have professed to be an expert on TCP/IP... I was assuming he'd work with one class of networks at a time, tho... [..snip..] > Don't forget to restore the original address with "ifconfig le0 111.0.0.1 > broadcast 111.255.255.255 netmask 255.0.0.0 up" when you've finished :-) What does 'broadcast' do (other than the obvious)? > It'll take a while to work through the class C range, because ping will > take a while to time out on each network number :-) Say two seconds per > network, thats (224-192) * 256 * 256 * 2 seconds, about 4 million seconds, > or just over 48 days. Oh, and you'll probably want to refine my shell > script to eliminate the unneccesary lines generated by ping recording > responses from the Sun itself, and the headers. You don't need 12 million > extra lines in the output :-) Yes, I'd say he would benefit from some filtering if he has to check all the class C range, but I was assuming this could take a couple of months, worst-case... -dq From dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com Fri Nov 2 15:33:04 2001 From: dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com (Douglas Quebbeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:24 2005 Subject: Price guide for vintage computers Message-ID: <7A9BACCEF0171D4FB77019F5104CDD37225862@jeffserver.tegjeff.com> > That sound like my interpretation of the Claus Buckholtz 256k Atari800xl > 'dead bug' upgrade. Dead bug because the ic's were upside down, legs > splayed.... Kind of off-the-subject, but the upside-chip-epoxied-on is a fairly common field-engineering trick... done it more than once myself. -dq From dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com Fri Nov 2 15:40:34 2001 From: dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com (Douglas Quebbeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:24 2005 Subject: Picture books of old computers Message-ID: <7A9BACCEF0171D4FB77019F5104CDD37225864@jeffserver.tegjeff.com> Sellam sayeth: > On Fri, 2 Nov 2001, Mike Ford wrote: > > > We have a bunch of computer museum people on this list, I am curious > > if any of their related organizations plan on doing a coffee table > > picture book of old computers? It would be nice if something REALLY > > comprehensive was available. Does anyone even have a "list" of all the > > computers ever made? That might be a pretty good start, an all text > > web page with every computer and model in a long list, then make it > > links to more data, etc. etc. > > Hans Pufal used to have the Comprehensive Computer Catalogue but that > doesn't seem to be up anymore :( > > There was also another one called The Old Computers List but it seems to > be gone too. here are a few (mostly variants of the same list): http://www.comp.nus.edu.sg/~johnm/cs3220/Computer_index.htm http://www.op.net/docs/Computer-Folklore/Computer_list http://www.cs.unr.edu/~han/DClist.html and many links to more such resources at: http://ed-thelen.org/comp-hist/links.html -dq From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Fri Nov 2 15:45:00 2001 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (Ben Franchuk) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:24 2005 Subject: CPU design at the gate level References: <469.706T2600T12976581optimus@canit.se> Message-ID: <3BE313DC.167167A9@jetnet.ab.ca> Iggy Drougge wrote: > What? My local electronics shop owner tells me that it isn't as high-profile > nowadays, but it's quite possible to buy 74 series circuits in any good > electronics shop, right? 74x00's are still common - I still can get that at Radio-shack for $2.00 in a bubble package here in Canada. It is rare chips ALU's, carry look aheads, 16x4 memory that you can't find. The $.10 surplus TTL days are long gone. Ben Franchuk. -- Standard Disclaimer : 97% speculation 2% bad grammar 1% facts. "Pre-historic Cpu's" http://www.jetnet.ab.ca/users/bfranchuk From dave at kaleidosoft.com Fri Nov 2 15:50:05 2001 From: dave at kaleidosoft.com (Dave Babcock) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:24 2005 Subject: Picture books of old computers References: Message-ID: <006001c163e8$59646a00$a77ba8c0@merlin> This link still seems to be up though: http://members.fortunecity.com/pcmuseum/complist.html Thanks, DaveB ----- Original Message ----- From: "Sellam Ismail" To: Sent: Friday, November 02, 2001 12:56 PM Subject: Re: Picture books of old computers > On Fri, 2 Nov 2001, Mike Ford wrote: > > > We have a bunch of computer museum people on this list, I am curious > > if any of their related organizations plan on doing a coffee table > > picture book of old computers? It would be nice if something REALLY > > comprehensive was available. Does anyone even have a "list" of all the > > computers ever made? That might be a pretty good start, an all text > > web page with every computer and model in a long list, then make it > > links to more data, etc. etc. > > Hans Pufal used to have the Comprehensive Computer Catalogue but that > doesn't seem to be up anymore :( > > There was also another one called The Old Computers List but it seems to > be gone too. > > Dang, I really need to clean up the VCF Link Library. > > Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival > -------------------------------------------------------------------------- ---- > International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org > > From dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com Fri Nov 2 15:51:36 2001 From: dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com (Douglas Quebbeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:24 2005 Subject: Ecomstation.org (was Re: An Organization (was: Do we have a V AXorganization?)) Message-ID: <7A9BACCEF0171D4FB77019F5104CDD37225865@jeffserver.tegjeff.com> > >This flame war has been done before. I'm only participating here because > >I was individually lambasted. Methinks IHBT... > > IHBT? I Had Better T... -dq From red at bears.org Fri Nov 2 16:01:16 2001 From: red at bears.org (r. 'bear' stricklin) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:24 2005 Subject: Ecomstation.org (was Re: An Organization (was: Do we have a V AXorganization?)) In-Reply-To: <7A9BACCEF0171D4FB77019F5104CDD37225865@jeffserver.tegjeff.com> Message-ID: On Fri, 2 Nov 2001, Douglas Quebbeman wrote: > > >This flame war has been done before. I'm only participating here because > > >I was individually lambasted. Methinks IHBT... > > > > IHBT? > > I Had Better T... "I Have Been Trolled" HTH, HAND. ok r. From pete at dunnington.u-net.com Fri Nov 2 16:07:56 2001 From: pete at dunnington.u-net.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:24 2005 Subject: Thick Ethernet/Sun networking problems In-Reply-To: Arno Kletzander "Thick Ethernet/Sun networking problems" (Nov 2, 10:13) References: <11352.1004692398@www21.gmx.net> Message-ID: <10111022207.ZM29556@mindy.dunnington.u-net.com> On Nov 2, 10:13, Arno Kletzander wrote: > OK Pete (and everybody else, of course), I admit that was a *long* break > since I brought that up last time - but now I think I have collected enough > information for a new chapter...So, where did we get stuck? > OK, as the IP Adress of the SUN 1+ is 111.0.0.14 and the Subnet Mask > ff:00:00:00 (says so at boot): Which is correct for a Class A network... > ping -s 111.255.255.255 > (if everything on the network is powered up and the PC is configured for > TCP/IP transfer) gets answers from: > hombre (111.0.0.14);the sending machine itself > papa (111.0.0.23);the SUN SPARCstation 2 on the next desk > ? (111.0.0.83);a PC I've finally set up for sniffing > > Nothing however from the printer. :-( > No idea whether that helps, but if both the SUN 1+ and the printer are > powered up, an arp -a shows: > pa3 111.1.0.1 at (incomplete) Is "pa3" the printer name? What that means is that the Sun's Ethernet software "knows" that "pa3" means IP address 111.1.0.1, but nothing has responded to any attempt to communicate with that IP address, so it doesn't know its hardware address. On an Ethernet, as you probably know, the data packet is wrapped in several layers of what you might think of as envelopes. The outermost one contains the MAC addresses of sender and intended recipient, and is what is always used for the delivery of the packet to the next (which may be the final) destination en route. So for "hombre" to know how to send a packet to "pa3", it first looks up pa3's IP address (in etc/hosts, or using DNS), and then broadcasts an ARP (Address Resolution Protocol) packet (sender: hombre's MAC address; destination: Ethernet broadcast address, FF:FF:FF:FF:FF:FF) containing that IP address as data. Whoever owns that IP address is supposed to respond with an ARP reply (same packet type, different flags inside, with sender: pa3's MAC address; destination: hombre's MAC address). Thus hombre learns pa3's MAC address, which it stores in it's ARP table, and uses to send a packet (the one it originally wanted to send) to pa3's MAC address. > and out of 25 packets I sniffed (Man, am I high now ;-)), 20 were ETHER type > 0806 (ARP), the remaining 5 were type 0800. Without knowing what was in the packet headers, I can't say what they were. But probably the ARP packets were hombre repeatedly broadcasting an ARP request to get pa3's MAC address. > OK, as I didn't finde snoop on the Suns (and didn't want to fiddle with > compiling programs by myself at this stage...), snoop is only available as a binary, from Sun themselves (or from SGI, for the IRIX version). tcpdump and other similar programs are available as freeware with source. tcpdump needs a library called libpcap, whicxh is also used by other decoders/analysers, such as Ethereal. > I set up a PC with a network > card, packet drivers and EtherLoad 2.00. Connected this to the idle transceiver, > started with -r (record traffic), powered up one SUN and recorded the first > 10 packets from it, then powered up the printer and recorded until I had 25 > (the printer had then finished its warmup cycle and was displaying "READY"). > Got only packets sent by the SUN (MAC: 08.00.20.09.BC.D7) destined for > FF.FF.FF.FF.FF.FF (everybody?). Probably ARP requests. FF.FF.FF.FF.FF.FF is the broadcast address (destination, in this case). The next layer in the packet would tell you what IP address it was ARPing for. BTW, Ethernet addresses are normally represented with colons (':') separating the octets, not spaces or periods. > The sniffer's HEX output file decodes to a lot of unreadable characters if > interpreted as ASCII; only in the second packet that appears after switching > the SUN on, the host name 'hombre' is readable. > Decoding the whole data to decimal numbers show up the SUN's IP adress in > all packets, the address the printer should have in the eighth and every > following packet. Yes, they won't mean much in that form. The format of an ARP packet is: hardware type code (2 octets), protocol type code (2 octets), hex 06 (the hardware address length, assuming Ethernet), hex 04 (the IP address length, assuming Ethernet), opcode flags (16 bits giving the type of request/reply) source MAC (6 octets), source IP (4 octets, all zeros if this is a reverse-ARP), destination MAC (6 octets), destination IP (4 octets, may be FFFFFFFF for a broadcast). hombre's IP address appears because it's the sender address of the packets; the name appearing in the second packet suggests it might be a NIS packet of some sort. > Is there a DOS based sniffer out there which will produce output as > understandable as snoop? There's an old version of LANdecoder that runs under DOS, I think. It's not free, though, and I've no idea where to get a copy. > >On most of the Ethernet-enabled printers I've come across (mostly HPs, > Lexmarks, and Xeroxes) you >can do the setup from the front panel -- sometimes > tedious, but usually not too hard to understand. Some of the HP deskjets with JetDirect cards can only be setup/accessed by telnet or RARP/BOOTP/DHCP. > However, with us there is no sys admin - so how can we 'accomplish these > tasks'? You are your own sysadmin :-) > CalComp Internal Ethernet Adapter > Revision 4.11, Datecode 12/20 1994 10:20 > Burnin Value = 0 SRAM = 256K bytes, Novram = 128 bytes > Ethernet address 00 C0 E2 00 0C 8E That's the address you need for /etc/ethers on a RARP server (or /etc/bootp.conf on a BOOTP or DHCP server for clients that talk something more sophisticated than just RARP). > Netware options: > !!! Netware DISABLED (use 'N' menu to re-enable) !!! Leave it this way unless you need Novell -- it's very broadcasty and wasteful of bandwidth (a few machines won't be a bother, but a hundred on a segment could) > Auto sense ethernet type between Ethernet II and 802.3 > Apple EtherTalk options: > EtherTalk DISABLED !!! (use 'N' menu to re-enable ) > Printer name: CalComp CCL600ES > Internally stored zone name: * > Ethertalk Phase 2 Leave this off too unless you need it. > LPD ( remote printer queues ) options: > LPD enabled LPD refers to the use of the Berkeley 'lpr' line printer protocol, commonly used by UNIX systems. This is the one your Suns want. > But no idea on how to get this printed again to verify the settings haven't > changed (e.g. due to bitrot in the Novram)... Some more experimentation is needed to be sure what all the symptoms really mean. However, obviously the printer isn't responding to an ARP request for what should be its own IP address. Therefore either it is using some other IP address, or it has lost it's configuration and needs to be supplied an IP address (by RARP or otherwise), or the interface is broken/dormant. I expect that this printer, which is quite old, can only use RARP (which is an old and simple protocol, but still in use), not BOOTP or DHCP, to get an IP address. If it were actually trying to do so, you ought to see some ARP packets emanating from the printer, with the printer's MAC address as the source, and the Ethernet broadcast address as the destination. Since you're not seeing that, I assume the card is either completely faulty (no link light etc?) or is so badly misconfigured (possibly the setup has been corrupted by age, or suffers from flat battery if there is one) that it needs reset to factory defaults before it will operate. -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager University of York From mhstein at usa.net Fri Nov 2 16:14:55 2001 From: mhstein at usa.net (M H Stein) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:24 2005 Subject: EISA - was VLB SCSI? Message-ID: <01C163C2.12512E80@mse-d03> Thanks for the tip; will give it a try now that you've reassured me. I don't think it's the battery since the config is stable, i.e. the power can be off for a weekend and everything's still fine when it's powered up again, just that annoying F1 request, and the problem started when I removed that modem and had to change IRQ's. I was reluctant to pull the battery & reset the config in case that really messed things up; at least now it's bootable. But sounds like it can't hurt to replace the battery, so might as well while I'm at it. mike -----------Original Message---------- Date: Fri, 02 Nov 2001 02:45:53 -0500 From: Chad Fernandez Subject: Re: EISA - was VLB SCSI? re-read what he said..... he isn't loosing the configuration, it justs wants attention. I have had this happen before too. I just change things until it stops :-) I think something gets crossed up when changing things around too much, and it asks for F1 to be pressed. You can start over from scratch by pulling the battery..... I have had to do that once or twice when I really screwed things up, to the point that it hung while the bios was loading :-) Chad Fernandez Michigan, USA From mhstein at usa.net Fri Nov 2 16:16:10 2001 From: mhstein at usa.net (M H Stein) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:24 2005 Subject: classiccmp-digest V1 #761 Message-ID: <01C163C2.16371B40@mse-d03> In my TI databook, they're both ALU and/or Function Generators (a rose by any other name :), identical except for the carry/overflow logic. Hope that makes both of you happy. Allison (and sorry for not noticing that you're the exception, gender- wise, Sellam's feminine side notwithstanding), I ran across a thread here last year where you mentioned the Signetics 3000KT8080SK bit-slice board; don't suppose you did ever find any documentation? I've got one here that's pretty useless except as a source of TTL chips, since it's all socketed. m -----------Original Message------------ >> The 74382 is not an ALU, it's a carry look ahead generator. The 74381 is an >> ALU. > >I have a 74F382 data sheet -- this is a ALU. Really, my TI databooks have it as the lookahead carry generator for the 381 ALU. From pete at dunnington.u-net.com Fri Nov 2 16:20:40 2001 From: pete at dunnington.u-net.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:24 2005 Subject: Thick Ethernet/Sun networking problems In-Reply-To: Douglas Quebbeman "RE: Thick Ethernet/Sun networking problems" (Nov 2, 16:30) References: <7A9BACCEF0171D4FB77019F5104CDD37225861@jeffserver.tegjeff.com> Message-ID: <10111022220.ZM29605@mindy.dunnington.u-net.com> On Nov 2, 16:30, Douglas Quebbeman wrote: > > On Nov 2, 8:03, Douglas Quebbeman wrote: > Someone else pointed out IFCONFIG; sorry, not a *nix guru. > I tolerate *nix as Multics' poor deformed little brother. ;-) > > Don't forget to restore the original address with "ifconfig le0 111.0.0.1 > > broadcast 111.255.255.255 netmask 255.0.0.0 up" when you've finished :-) > > What does 'broadcast' do (other than the obvious)? It's just a way of explicitly stating what the broadcast address for that interface is. In every legitimate case I can think of, it should be redundant if you provide the netmask (or the netmask is redundant if you give the broadcast address). I'm not sure what happens if they don't match. Maybe that's allowed if you have multiple IP addresses (ip aliases) for the same physical interface, then perhaps you could use a "broader" broadcast address to listen to more than one subnet on the same interface. I don't know. > > It'll take a while to work through the class C range > Yes, I'd say he would benefit from some filtering if he > has to check all the class C range, but I was assuming > this could take a couple of months, worst-case... You were about right then, I think! I wasn't having a dig at you! Merely "thinking out loud" and pointing out (in case Arno, for example, didn't see the implications) that there are rather a lot of addresses :-) Even then, it might not work. The range of network addresses from 224.0.0.0 to 239.255.255.255 are used for multicast, and no ordinary IP software uses those for unicast (normal) or broadcast traffic. Above that, I don;t know of any allocated uses, and things aren't suposed to respond to them at all, which would be a problem if the setting are corrupt in such a way as to fall in that range. -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager University of York From LFessen106 at aol.com Fri Nov 2 16:20:12 2001 From: LFessen106 at aol.com (LFessen106@aol.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:24 2005 Subject: Picture books of old computers Message-ID: <77.1d87651e.2914761c@aol.com> In a message dated 11/02/2001 16:25:11, you wrote: >We have a bunch of computer museum people on this list, I am curious if any >of their related organizations plan on doing a coffee table picture book of >old computers? It would be nice if something REALLY comprehensive was >available. Does anyone even have a "list" of all the computers ever made? >That might be a pretty good start, an all text web page with every computer >and model in a long list, then make it links to more data, etc. etc. Now *that* would be cool! From Thomas.J.Lynch at usa.xerox.com Fri Nov 2 16:28:17 2001 From: Thomas.J.Lynch at usa.xerox.com (Lynch, Thomas J) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:24 2005 Subject: PDP 11 / 83 Message-ID: <7C9F0BB3FDC5D3119C5900805FC73615574CD1@usa0207ms1.eng.mc.xerox.com> Anyone interested in PDP11 /83? I've got a couple at auction, with a supplementary rack or two. Don't want 'em real bad, now. For shipping and a few dollars they might go your way, if you want 'em. They're in Rochester, NY area. Phone 716/671-7308 or email tomsir@rochester.rr.com Have a good day :=) From menadeau at mediaone.net Fri Nov 2 16:26:26 2001 From: menadeau at mediaone.net (Michael Nadeau) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:24 2005 Subject: Price guide for vintage computers (long) References: <3BDCA84F.7EED8C7C@jetnet.ab.ca><00eb01c16041$cef9c260$3a92a8c0@MAGGIE> <3.0.5.32.20011102074110.008b44d0@ubanproductions.com> Message-ID: <013c01c163ed$6faea500$0b01a8c0@ValuedCustomer> Hi, Tom. The book covers microcomputers only (loosely defined), starting with systems from the early 1970s like the Kenbak, Intel Intellec, Mark-8, Micral, etc. I tried to get as many models from that era and into the beginning of the PC era as possible. After that I was more selective. Only a few systems from the late 1980s and early 1990s are covered. Portable micros from luggables to notebooks are also included. Sorry, the Imlac isn't in the book. --Mike Michael Nadeau Editorial Services 603-893-2379 ----- Original Message ----- From: "Tom Uban" To: Sent: Friday, November 02, 2001 8:41 AM Subject: Re: Price guide for vintage computers (long) > Mike, > > Would you post the "contents" for your book? I am curious what range > of machine it might be covering? > > --tnx > --tom > > At 08:13 AM 11/2/01 -0500, you wrote: > >Yes, I had hoped for a January/Feb. release date. But, a guide is just a > >guide. The numbers may or may not change for some items between now and when > >the book comes out, but the relative values should stay consistent. Again, > >the book is much more than a price guide and should be well worth its cover > >price (not set in stone yet, but the publisher wants it to be as affordable > >as possible). > > > >I thought about self-publishing, but decided against it because there is no > >easy way for someone like me to reach all the potential readers. I would > >have had to spend too much time and money on promotion, advertising, etc. I > >hope it was the right decision. > > > >You are probably thinking of the Blue Book guides (www.bluebook.com), which > >are not aimed at the collector/enthusiast market at all. They are, as you > >described, guides for trade-in value for electronics dealers. > > > >--Mike > > > >--Mike > > > >Michael Nadeau > >Editorial Services > >603-893-2379 > >----- Original Message ----- > >From: "Mike Ford" > >To: > >Sent: Friday, November 02, 2001 3:41 AM > >Subject: Re: Price guide for vintage computers (long) > > > > > >> >change). The latest word from my publisher is that is will be available > >in > >> >June next year. I expected publication for late this year, but I was a > >bit > >> > >> Ouch! Data 8 months stale when it goes to press, so much for the price > >> guide notions. > >> > >> It never occured to me that this would be a "real" book. I assumed it > >would > >> be a self published item, perhaps sold directly via all the weird channels > >> of the internet. A couple people I know have been fairly successfull self > >> publishing, and it keeps the information much fresher. > >> > >> Anybody remember who it is that publishes the price guides for used > >> consumer electronics? They usually have a booth at all the CES trade > >shows, > >> and the books show trade in and retail prices, that are frankly pretty > >kind > >> to dealers, ie its a tool to buy for your store using it. > >> > >> > >> > > > > > > > From erd_6502 at yahoo.com Fri Nov 2 16:40:40 2001 From: erd_6502 at yahoo.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:24 2005 Subject: Thick Ethernet/Sun networking problems In-Reply-To: <10111022220.ZM29605@mindy.dunnington.u-net.com> Message-ID: <20011102224040.97586.qmail@web20105.mail.yahoo.com> --- Pete Turnbull wrote: > On Nov 2, 16:30, Douglas Quebbeman wrote: > > What does 'broadcast' do (other than the obvious)? > > It's just a way of explicitly stating what the broadcast address for that > interface is. In every legitimate case I can think of, it should be > redundant if you provide the netmask (or the netmask is redundant if you > give the broadcast address). I think it's useful when you have an ancient network where the broadcast address uses 0-bits, rather than 1-bits - i.e., ip 192.168.1.1 with a netmask of 192.168.1.0 and a broadcast address of 192.168.1.0 *not* 192.168.1.255. It's archaic, but allowed. Don't know if stuff <10 years old will choke on that or not. -ethan __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Find a job, post your resume. http://careers.yahoo.com From edick at idcomm.com Fri Nov 2 16:14:37 2001 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:24 2005 Subject: Redactron WP Cassette drive technical manual References: <01C156B5.737066A0@mse-d03> Message-ID: <000101c163f0$31683ba0$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> Does that mean that I can, without fear of either guilt or retribution from collectors, discard the "Magnetic Tape Cassette Transport Technical Manual" that I found in my basement today? It's yours for the price of postage, if you want it. Dick ----- Original Message ----- From: "M H Stein" To: "'ClassicComputers'" Sent: Tuesday, October 16, 2001 11:42 PM Subject: Redactron WP > Redactron dual mag card WP (with one card), schematic, no printer. Can I assume there's no interest and I can finally toss something without feeling guilty? > > mike > > From edick at idcomm.com Fri Nov 2 16:20:21 2001 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:24 2005 Subject: classiccmp-digest V1 #761 References: <001f01c163bd$22ae46a0$6b7b7b7b@ajp> Message-ID: <000201c163f0$319a9640$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> You're right, they have separate I/o. Not all CMOS ram's have common I/O. In fact, several of the 64Kx4-bit ones I've got definitely have separate I/O. Dick ----- Original Message ----- From: "Allison" To: Sent: Friday, November 02, 2001 9:40 AM Subject: Re: classiccmp-digest V1 #761 > Ah yes but, the CMOS ram would cause one problem for the > design... Common IO. The 74189/289 had seperate IO unless > I've suffered a major brain cramp. > > Allison > > -----Original Message----- > From: Richard Erlacher > To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org > Date: Friday, November 02, 2001 11:28 AM > Subject: Re: classiccmp-digest V1 #761 > > > >The '289's are inverting, though tristate, just like the '189's. TI made a > '219 > >which was a noninverting tristate version of this same sort and pinout. > ISTR > >that there was yet another part, albeit not of the normal 74xxx sort, that > was a > >non-inverting version as well, but I can't, for the life of me, rememberit > >(senior moment). These days, it's both cheaper and easier (faster, too) to > use > >a CMOS ram of considerably larger size. > > > >Dick > > > >----- Original Message ----- > >From: "Ben Franchuk" > >To: > >Sent: Thursday, November 01, 2001 5:17 PM > >Subject: Re: classiccmp-digest V1 #761 > > > > > >> ajp166 wrote: > >> > > >> > Those parts were never cheap! > >> > > >> > You can also use 74289s for the '189s. The '382s are an improved > version > >> > of the '182. A note, if you can tolerate a slower ALU you can omit the > >> > '382s > >> > and just use ripple carry. > >> > >> If the 74289's are the non inverting 16x4 rams I would use them. I plan > >> to use 74ls382's (the ripple carry alu's). > >> > >> > A sub for 74189s is some of the byte wide cache rams from an old > 386/486 > >> > PC as the faster ones were faster than the TTL 74189! You dont have to > use > >> > the full space of the cache ram though having it would make afor an > >interesting > >> > register array. > >> > >> Can't do that for three reasons > >> 1) I am use a 16 x 12 ram ( 3 chips ) on two boards for a 8 x 24 > >> register array. > >> 2) I am using the 486 cache chips as main memory in my FPGA prototype > >> 32k x 12 bits.:) > >> 3) This was a TTL design on paper of what a computer designed in the > >> early 1980's > >> could have been like. That rules out 2901 bit slices. > >> > >> > Allison > >> As it stands today I have a FPGA ( pat pat pat ) that is configured to > >> have a similar > >> layout as the ttl design and this lets me play around with the > >> configuration. Mind you a > >> larger TTL CPU with lights and switches is more impressive. If you like > >> lights > >> and switches here is a neat link http://www.angelfire.com/scifi/B205/ > >> 'to the Bat Cave' > >> > >> Ben Franchuk. > >> -- > >> Standard Disclaimer : 97% speculation 2% bad grammar 1% facts. > >> "Pre-historic Cpu's" http://www.jetnet.ab.ca/users/bfranchuk > >> Now with schematics. > >> > >> > > > > From edick at idcomm.com Fri Nov 2 16:33:22 2001 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:25 2005 Subject: CPU design at the gate level References: <469.706T2600T12976581optimus@canit.se> Message-ID: <000301c163f0$31ccf0e0$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> While it's true that TTL and work-alike CMOS is found everywhere, if you go with a parts list, you'll find you're unable to get a substantial range of parts these days. You may be able to find the parts eventually, but the investment in shipping is prohibitive. Unfortunately for the builders of "one-of's," like me (spelled one-off's in some places, for reasons I don't understand), the programmable logic comes in packages that are really inconvenient for that purpose. Nowadays, you're required to use a 1000+ pin BGA package to get the quantity of logic that you'd like in a 44-pin PLCC. If you're really lucky with the fit, the device will allow you to use 10% of the gate count the marketing guys said you're paying for. The result is that you have to use a PGA package that lists for over $1k per part, or build an adapter board for the cheaper TQFP part, with a total cost, when you're done, of over $1k per each anyway, and then, to make matters worse, only one in 7 of these adapter boards will turn out to be properly soldered, so you waste 6 FPGA's costing $300 each. That's why product development that once required a cash outlay of $500 now costs $500 million. Dick ----- Original Message ----- From: "Iggy Drougge" To: "Ben Franchuk" Sent: Friday, November 02, 2001 1:37 PM Subject: Re: CPU design at the gate level > Ben Franchuk skrev: > > >Never used the stuff. Since they don't make TTL any more I kind was > >forced into using FPGA's. :). > > What? My local electronics shop owner tells me that it isn't as high-profile > nowadays, but it's quite possible to buy 74 series circuits in any good > electronics shop, right? > > -- > En ligne avec Thor 2.6a. > > Anv?nd g?rna mitt staket, fast du beh?ver nog fr?scha upp det lite. > Lupin III, Lupin den otrolige (Lupin III vs. fukusei ningen), TMS 1978 > > > From pcw at mesanet.com Fri Nov 2 16:51:32 2001 From: pcw at mesanet.com (Peter C. Wallace) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:25 2005 Subject: classiccmp-digest V1 #761 In-Reply-To: <01C163C2.16371B40@mse-d03> Message-ID: On Fri, 2 Nov 2001, M H Stein wrote: > In my TI databook, they're both ALU and/or Function Generators (a rose > by any other name :), identical except for the carry/overflow logic. > Hope that makes both of you happy. > > Allison (and sorry for not noticing that you're the exception, gender- > wise, Sellam's feminine side notwithstanding), I ran across a thread > here last year where you mentioned the Signetics 3000KT8080SK bit-slice > board; don't suppose you did ever find any documentation? I've got one > here that's pretty useless except as a source of TTL chips, since it's > all socketed. I have a friend that has a 3000KT8080SK. At least I think thats what it is. His is an un-assembled kit in a box. It is a 8080 implemented with Signetics 3002 bit slices (2 bits each I think) He probably has the manual if you have specific questions.... > > m > > -----------Original Message------------ > > >> The 74382 is not an ALU, it's a carry look ahead generator. The 74381 is > an > >> ALU. > > > >I have a 74F382 data sheet -- this is a ALU. > > > Really, my TI databooks have it as the lookahead carry generator for the 381 > ALU. > > > > Peter Wallace From pete at dunnington.u-net.com Fri Nov 2 17:12:34 2001 From: pete at dunnington.u-net.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:25 2005 Subject: Thick Ethernet/Sun networking problems In-Reply-To: Ethan Dicks "Re: Thick Ethernet/Sun networking problems" (Nov 2, 14:40) References: <20011102224040.97586.qmail@web20105.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <10111022312.ZM29688@mindy.dunnington.u-net.com> On Nov 2, 14:40, Ethan Dicks wrote: > > --- Pete Turnbull wrote: > > On Nov 2, 16:30, Douglas Quebbeman wrote: > > > What does 'broadcast' do (other than the obvious)? > > > > It's just a way of explicitly stating what the broadcast address for that > > interface is. In every legitimate case I can think of, it should be > > redundant if you provide the netmask (or the netmask is redundant if you > > give the broadcast address). > > I think it's useful when you have an ancient network where the broadcast > address uses 0-bits, rather than 1-bits - i.e., ip 192.168.1.1 with a > netmask of 192.168.1.0 and a broadcast address of 192.168.1.0 *not* > 192.168.1.255. It's archaic, but allowed. So it is -- I forgot about that! The rest of what I wrote may well be drivel :-) -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager University of York From erd_6502 at yahoo.com Fri Nov 2 17:15:12 2001 From: erd_6502 at yahoo.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:25 2005 Subject: hard-sector 5 1/4 disk In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20011102231512.21006.qmail@web20109.mail.yahoo.com> --- Tony Duell wrote: > Most minis -- PDP8, PDP11, P800 series, etc (it's very rare to find a > disk drive that mounts in the CPU box on such machines, although it may > share a rack with the CPU) If you extend the definition of PDP-8 and PDP-11 to include DECMateIIs, and DECmate IIIs, then you've got the 5.25" floppy in the box. Same goes for BA-23 and BA-213-based PDP-11s (the MicroPDP line) - RX50 right there. For OMNIBUS and UNIBUS boxes, though, you are correct. -ethan __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Find a job, post your resume. http://careers.yahoo.com From erd_6502 at yahoo.com Fri Nov 2 17:22:00 2001 From: erd_6502 at yahoo.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:25 2005 Subject: One-off vs. One-of (was Re: CPU design at the gate level) In-Reply-To: <000301c163f0$31ccf0e0$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> Message-ID: <20011102232200.49302.qmail@web20102.mail.yahoo.com> --- Richard Erlacher wrote: > Unfortunately for the builders of "one-of's," like me (spelled one-off's > in some places, for reasons I don't understand)... It's not just spelled "one-off", it's pronounced "one-off" - as in "Wan Awf", not "Wan Ov". It's an engineer's term for a prototype. I think you are interpreting it as short for "one of a kind" which I don't think it is exactly an abbreviation for. It might be short for "run one off the assembly line and stop", though. Not sure of the history, but it really is "one-off". I first heard the term used 17 years ago, not that _it_ was new to the industry, but _I_ was new, then. -ethan __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Find a job, post your resume. http://careers.yahoo.com From erd_6502 at yahoo.com Fri Nov 2 17:26:54 2001 From: erd_6502 at yahoo.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:25 2005 Subject: 74189s and 74170s and ALUs, etc. In-Reply-To: <001801c163ca$41c72b80$6b7b7b7b@ajp> Message-ID: <20011102232654.96788.qmail@web20101.mail.yahoo.com> --- Allison wrote: > The 74189 is inverting, though adding an external inverting buffer is > NBD. > If you want a part that wasn't inverting then you have to use the 4x4 > register file (74170) times for to get nearly the same thing. The 4x4 > however allowed was a two port device. Anybody need any 74170s? I have more than 4. ;-) -ethan __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Find a job, post your resume. http://careers.yahoo.com From spectre at stockholm.ptloma.edu Fri Nov 2 18:04:36 2001 From: spectre at stockholm.ptloma.edu (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:25 2005 Subject: hard-sector 5 1/4 disk In-Reply-To: <20011102204558.ITMP23808.femail11.sdc1.sfba.home.com@BENCHBOX> from "UberTechnoid@home.com" at "Nov 2, 1 03:45:33 pm" Message-ID: <200111030004.QAA11126@stockholm.ptloma.edu> > I thought they used a 6507 or 6510 processor... Most Commodore drives have 6502s or 6504s except for the oddball 1551 which has a 6510T in it. These are just variant chips Commodore produced that understand a 6502 instruction set but have different address bus sizes or on-chip I/O. -- ----------------------------- personal page: http://www.armory.com/~spectre/ -- Cameron Kaiser, Point Loma Nazarene University * ckaiser@stockholm.ptloma.edu -- All things are possible, except skiing through a revolving door. ----------- From spectre at stockholm.ptloma.edu Fri Nov 2 18:08:21 2001 From: spectre at stockholm.ptloma.edu (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:25 2005 Subject: hard-sector 5 1/4 disk In-Reply-To: from Tony Duell at "Nov 2, 1 07:15:54 pm" Message-ID: <200111030008.QAA10384@stockholm.ptloma.edu> > > All 8-bit Commodore disk drives have CPUs, period, IEEE or no. Some older > > drives have two, one for "IP" to accept commands over the Commodore serial > > bus and one to act as FDC. 1541s and later drives have "schizophrenic" CPUs > > Did any of the 'serial bus' drives have 2 CPUs? Most (all?) of the > IEEE-488 ones do, one for the interface, the other for the disk > controller. THey are both 6502-family devices, and are clocked on > opposite levels of the same master clock, so that only one attempts to > access memory at a given time. This makes it trivial for them to share > memory, and of course that's the way the 2 CPUs in a CBM drive communicated. > > But every serial-bus drive I've worked on (1541, 1570, 1571) only has 1 > (6502) CPU in it. AFAIK, this is correct. Only the IEEE drives have dual CPUs. *However* -- the IEEE 2031 is also a single CPU. The 2031 is suspiciously similar to the 1541 and analysis has shown that simply replacing the ROMs and the serial bus connector turns a 1541 into a 2031 and vice versa. Its position on the disk drive timeline is somewhat murky. Still, the holdover from the original dual CPU Commodore drives persists in all later 8-bit Commodore drives as the alternating IP/FDC modes. -- ----------------------------- personal page: http://www.armory.com/~spectre/ -- Cameron Kaiser, Point Loma Nazarene University * ckaiser@stockholm.ptloma.edu -- FORTUNE: You can overcome any obstacle. Try a steeplechase. ---------------- From beesley at mandrake.demon.co.uk Fri Nov 2 18:03:53 2001 From: beesley at mandrake.demon.co.uk (Phil Beesley) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:25 2005 Subject: MicronEye Message-ID: Please don't tease, Craig. Tell us a bit more about the MicronEye -- Google doesn't throw up much more than "camera from 8 bit era". Phil (Back on the list after a long break and pleased to see the regular posters are still around.) Date: Thu, 01 Nov 2001 19:32:17 -0500 From: Craig Landrum FYI, I'm also a Mac junkie. Still have my bootable 128K original with external floppy drive and a rare MicronEye camera that plugged into it. --- http://www.mandrake.demon.co.uk/Apple/ From optimus at canit.se Fri Nov 2 16:53:54 2001 From: optimus at canit.se (Iggy Drougge) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:25 2005 Subject: hard-sector 5 1/4 disk In-Reply-To: <3BE1EA41.21B3173F@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <706.706T2700T14336605optimus@canit.se> Ben Franchuk skrev: >I was at one time hoping to pick up a Commodore Disk cheap for floppy >drive for a computer I am building but never did because I did not have >the docs about the interface. 5 1/4 Single Density Single Sided drives >did not help either.Is the C64 drives the only external drives built >other than the Color Computer drives by Radio Shack? I'm not sure what you're referring to here. There are external drives for just about every computer in existence. >BTW It is too bad OS/9 was a closed source OS. Why? BTW, it still is closed-source AFAIK. -- En ligne avec Thor 2.6a. Vi m?ste vara r?dda om varandra - det ?r det enda reciproka pronomen vi har. From optimus at canit.se Fri Nov 2 17:42:38 2001 From: optimus at canit.se (Iggy Drougge) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:25 2005 Subject: Disk ID software In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <1371.707T1900T425393optimus@canit.se> XenoSoft skrev: >On 2 Nov 2001, Iggy Drougge wrote: >> Haven't you ever ended up with a disk which you don't know what it might >> contain. For all intents and purposes, it might contain the VAX/MIPS >> sources. >> =) >> So what do you do? Plug it into every computer where it would fit? That >> could become quite tiresome. So, to get to the point, is there any software >> out there which might identify what OS or filesystem is on a disk? It >> really shouldn't be too difficult, just a matter of identifying some >> hundred partition tables, MBRs, RDBs or boot blocks, right? >1) check for FM / MFM / GCR recording on the first side. You now know >density. Oh, I was thinking of hard drives. Doing it on floppies would require something akin to a Catweasel, or at least a more capable controller than that of the PC, which for example will never read Commodore formats. [snip] >That's a start. There are LOTS of further weirdities, many of which are >OS specific (such as an MS-DOS format where the Directory is NOT on track >0), or Various "Stand-alone BASIC" formats that have differing concepts of >disk center. It would suffice to recognise the disk format, actually reading it is better left to the proper OS/DOSDriver/computer. -- En ligne avec Thor 2.6a. Fernsehen ist das einzige Schlafmittel, das mit den Augen genommen wird. --- Vittorio de Sica From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Nov 2 17:52:21 2001 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:25 2005 Subject: hard-sector 5 1/4 disk In-Reply-To: <20011102204558.ITMP23808.femail11.sdc1.sfba.home.com@BENCHBOX> from "UberTechnoid@home.com" at Nov 2, 1 03:45:33 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 613 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20011102/bbe13ddc/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Nov 2 17:56:47 2001 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:25 2005 Subject: hard-sector 5 1/4 disk In-Reply-To: <20011102205217.OPCI2781.femail15.sdc1.sfba.home.com@BENCHBOX> from "UberTechnoid@home.com" at Nov 2, 1 03:46:58 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 728 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20011102/184e097d/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Nov 2 17:49:56 2001 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:25 2005 Subject: CPU design at the gate level In-Reply-To: <469.706T2600T12976581optimus@canit.se> from "Iggy Drougge" at Nov 2, 1 09:37:52 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1312 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20011102/d3516b1f/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Nov 2 17:41:31 2001 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:25 2005 Subject: Price guide for vintage computers In-Reply-To: <20011102202232.NQAP2781.femail15.sdc1.sfba.home.com@BENCHBOX> from "UberTechnoid@home.com" at Nov 2, 1 03:18:06 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 841 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20011102/e4a0df77/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Nov 2 18:02:52 2001 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:25 2005 Subject: hard-sector 5 1/4 disk In-Reply-To: <20011102231512.21006.qmail@web20109.mail.yahoo.com> from "Ethan Dicks" at Nov 2, 1 03:15:12 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 933 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20011103/9c791df1/attachment.ksh From jhellige at earthlink.net Fri Nov 2 19:00:53 2001 From: jhellige at earthlink.net (Jeff Hellige) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:25 2005 Subject: hard-sector 5 1/4 disk In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: > > > Most minis -- PDP8, PDP11, P800 series, etc (it's very rare to find a >> > disk drive that mounts in the CPU box on such machines, although it may >> > share a rack with the CPU) >> >> If you extend the definition of PDP-8 and PDP-11 to include DECMateIIs, >> and DECmate IIIs, then you've got the 5.25" floppy in the box. Same > >I've never really thought of DECMates, PROs, etc as minis. For all they >have the same instruction set as the PDP8 and PDP11 respectively. > >> goes for BA-23 and BA-213-based PDP-11s (the MicroPDP line) - RX50 >> right there. For OMNIBUS and UNIBUS boxes, though, you are correct. > >On the other hand, I must be going senile. I'd totally forgotten about >the BA23, etc. I think I have to consider the MicroPDPs and MicroVAXen as >minis. I could probably concoct a defintion where they were not, but that >would be cheating. I've often wondered about the blurring of those very lines with those groups of machines. The DECmate's, PROs, MicroPDP's, and MicroVAXen all belong to family groups that include full blown mini's yet each group has a large variety of machines of various sizes that may still use the same CPU, such as the PRO's and MicroPDP's. At what point is it no longer a mini and just a micro based on a mini? Mini's or not though, if it weren't for the small size of the above machines I wouldn't be able to have members of the PDP-8, PDP-11 and VAX families, of which I have one of each. Jeff -- Home of the TRS-80 Model 2000 FAQ File http://www.cchaven.com http://www.geocities.com/siliconvalley/lakes/6757 From technos at nerdland.org Fri Nov 2 19:09:33 2001 From: technos at nerdland.org (Jim) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:25 2005 Subject: Ecomstation.org (was Re: An Organization (was: Do we have a V AXorganization?)) Message-ID: <01C163DA.4A722720.technos@nerdland.org> I Have Been Trolled. See also: YHBT, YHBTHAND, YHBTIHYLIHAND. Jim On Friday, November 02, 2001 4:52 PM, Douglas Quebbeman [SMTP:dhquebbeman@theestopinalgroup.com] wrote: > > >This flame war has been done before. I'm only participating here because > > >I was individually lambasted. Methinks IHBT... > > > > IHBT? > > I Had Better T... > > -dq From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Fri Nov 2 19:16:37 2001 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (Ben Franchuk) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:25 2005 Subject: hard-sector 5 1/4 disk References: <706.706T2700T14336605optimus@canit.se> Message-ID: <3BE34575.25DDA287@jetnet.ab.ca> Iggy Drougge wrote: > > Ben Franchuk skrev: > I'm not sure what you're referring to here. There are external drives for just > about every computer in existence. I was thinking of more "Yes we have it but it really is a hardware hack! - take no notice of the dead bugs inside " external drives compared to the floppy is in that box over there. > >BTW It is too bad OS/9 was a closed source OS. > Why? BTW, it still is closed-source AFAIK. When I wrote that I was thinking of OS/9 for the 6809, a rather dead product. OS/9 is still popular for the 68000. Ben Franchuk. -- Standard Disclaimer : 97% speculation 2% bad grammar 1% facts. "Pre-historic Cpu's" http://www.jetnet.ab.ca/users/bfranchuk From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Fri Nov 2 19:22:30 2001 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (Ben Franchuk) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:25 2005 Subject: CPU design at the gate level References: <469.706T2600T12976581optimus@canit.se> <000301c163f0$31ccf0e0$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> Message-ID: <3BE346D6.BF0D29B6@jetnet.ab.ca> Richard Erlacher wrote: > > While it's true that TTL and work-alike CMOS is found everywhere, if you go with > a parts list, you'll find you're unable to get a substantial range of parts > these days. You may be able to find the parts eventually, but the investment in > shipping is prohibitive. > > Unfortunately for the builders of "one-of's," like me (spelled one-off's in some > places, for reasons I don't understand), the programmable logic comes in > packages that are really inconvenient for that purpose. Nowadays, you're > required to use a 1000+ pin BGA package to get the quantity of logic that you'd > like in a 44-pin PLCC. If you're really lucky with the fit, the device will > allow you to use 10% of the gate count the marketing guys said you're paying > for. The result is that you have to use a PGA package that lists for over $1k > per part, or build an adapter board for the cheaper TQFP part, with a total > cost, when you're done, of over $1k per each anyway, and then, to make matters > worse, only one in 7 of these adapter boards will turn out to be properly > soldered, so you waste 6 FPGA's costing $300 each. That's why product > development that once required a cash outlay of $500 now costs $500 million. > > Dick Don't forget the $500 minimum order per line item. I suspect you need all the 1000+ pins since only 50% of the pins are usable -- the power,ground and configuration pins take up a lot of space. Ben Franchuk. -- Standard Disclaimer : 97% speculation 2% bad grammar 1% facts. "Pre-historic Cpu's" http://www.jetnet.ab.ca/users/bfranchuk From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Fri Nov 2 19:34:47 2001 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (Ben Franchuk) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:25 2005 Subject: OS9 or Flex09 on 8" disk needed References: <01Nov2.155752est.119205@gateway.mediacen.navy.mil> Message-ID: <3BE349B7.86F0B923@jetnet.ab.ca> Jeff Hellige wrote: > > Does anyone have OS9 or Flex09, preferably for the SWTPc, on > 8" floppy or a means of making one on 8" floppy? I've finally gotten > a nice 8" cabinet with a pair of Siemens' 800-2 drives as well as a > bare pair of Shugart 851's and would like to give them a whirl with > the DMF2 floppy controller installed in my S/09. This was it's last > configuration, running OS9 with the Microware support ROMs on the > MP-09A. I could even provide the 8" disks if someone was willing to > make them. I thought try this ... "The Missing 6809 UniFLEX Archive" http://www.rtmx.com/UniFLEX/ but the webpage is now missing! Does anybody know what happened to it? This very bad when old information vanishes with out a trace on the web. Ben Franchuk. PS the flex web page http://www.evenson-consulting.com/flexusergroup/default.htm -- Standard Disclaimer : 97% speculation 2% bad grammar 1% facts. "Pre-historic Cpu's" http://www.jetnet.ab.ca/users/bfranchuk From edick at idcomm.com Fri Nov 2 21:12:33 2001 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:25 2005 Subject: One-off vs. One-of (was Re: CPU design at the gate level) References: <20011102232200.49302.qmail@web20102.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <001401c16415$61a86040$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> Well, that's interesting for sure. Having been in engineering since 1963, I have to say I've heard the term "one-of" countless times, since that's been the main thrust of my work since that time, and it is short for one-of-a-kind, while I started running into the term "one-off" only in the past decade, and, in fact, have never actually heard it used, only having seen it written. For that reason, I always thought of it as one of the countless spelling errors one runs into in the engineering community more and more as engineers are taught to be literate less and less. It surprises me, of course, that a term could be so widely understood, yet used so seldom by those with whom I've worked, over the past three decades and more, that I've never heard it used, even once, that I can recall. I've heard that explanation a number of times, but still am uncomfortable with it, as it seems to me to be a misuse/abuse of the language. Perhaps I'm being too pedantic. Dick ----- Original Message ----- From: "Ethan Dicks" To: Sent: Friday, November 02, 2001 4:22 PM Subject: One-off vs. One-of (was Re: CPU design at the gate level) > > --- Richard Erlacher wrote: > > Unfortunately for the builders of "one-of's," like me (spelled one-off's > > in some places, for reasons I don't understand)... > > It's not just spelled "one-off", it's pronounced "one-off" - as in > "Wan Awf", not "Wan Ov". It's an engineer's term for a prototype. > > I think you are interpreting it as short for "one of a kind" which I > don't think it is exactly an abbreviation for. It might be short for > "run one off the assembly line and stop", though. > > Not sure of the history, but it really is "one-off". I first heard the > term used 17 years ago, not that _it_ was new to the industry, but _I_ > was new, then. > > -ethan > > > > __________________________________________________ > Do You Yahoo!? > Find a job, post your resume. > http://careers.yahoo.com > > From edick at idcomm.com Fri Nov 2 21:13:31 2001 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:25 2005 Subject: 74189s and 74170s and ALUs, etc. References: <20011102232654.96788.qmail@web20101.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <001a01c16415$844cc8c0$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> I've still got a fair stock of LS670's, which are the tristate version. The '170's are OC, aren't they? Dick ----- Original Message ----- From: "Ethan Dicks" To: Sent: Friday, November 02, 2001 4:26 PM Subject: 74189s and 74170s and ALUs, etc. > > --- Allison wrote: > > The 74189 is inverting, though adding an external inverting buffer is > > NBD. > > If you want a part that wasn't inverting then you have to use the 4x4 > > register file (74170) times for to get nearly the same thing. The 4x4 > > however allowed was a two port device. > > > Anybody need any 74170s? I have more than 4. ;-) > > -ethan > > > > __________________________________________________ > Do You Yahoo!? > Find a job, post your resume. > http://careers.yahoo.com > > From edick at idcomm.com Fri Nov 2 21:17:15 2001 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:25 2005 Subject: CPU design at the gate level References: Message-ID: <003a01c16416$09cd6b80$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> Well, if you have to repair a terminal with those adders, carry generators, etc, in it, there's little you can do without them, aside, perhaps from building a daughterboard with a bunch of programmable parts, or at least one significant one. The latter always produces the risk of not providing the races that were designed into the original circuit and therefore failing due to proper design practice. Dick ----- Original Message ----- From: "Tony Duell" To: Sent: Friday, November 02, 2001 4:49 PM Subject: Re: CPU design at the gate level > > > > Ben Franchuk skrev: > > > > >Never used the stuff. Since they don't make TTL any more I kind was > > >forced into using FPGA's. :). > > > > What? My local electronics shop owner tells me that it isn't as high-prof= > > ile > > nowadays, but it's quite possible to buy 74 series circuits in any good > > electronics shop, right? > > I am not sure if 74xxx parts are still being made, but I suspect some of > the more common ones are, at least in HC(T), etc families. > > Even with FPGAs and other programmable logic, there are still times when > a few TTL chips make sense even in a commercial product. A lot of > products seem to consist of a microcontroller and a little external > logic. For the latter it doesn't make sense to use an FPGA in a lot of cases. > > Even if they're not being made, there's no trouble in getting the more > common parts still. Simple gates, flip-flops, bus buffers, counters, > muxes, decoders, etc. > > What are hard/impossible to find are things like RAMs, ALUs, carry > generators, and so on. In general they are only useful to people making > CPUs and similar processing circuits, where there's enough logic to make > it worth using an FPGA (no, I don't much care for them either...). Very > few people (except on this list) want to make a CPU from MSI chips, so > those chips are not made any more. > > -tony > > From edick at idcomm.com Fri Nov 2 21:21:37 2001 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:25 2005 Subject: CPU design at the gate level References: <469.706T2600T12976581optimus@canit.se> <000301c163f0$31ccf0e0$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> <3BE346D6.BF0D29B6@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <004a01c16416$a873bd20$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> With the <$1k cost, per each the $500 minimum is no problem. I get Cypress CPLD's, by the way, from a distributor that has no such minimum, (wierd) but they're hostile to coming in and picking the parts up rather than paying the $18 shipping for a $6 order. I long for the old queue at the will-call counter, where you could swap stories and pick up your parts the day you ordered them, paying sales tax, but no freight, and always being allowed to verify that the parts were what you ordered. Dick ----- Original Message ----- From: "Ben Franchuk" To: Sent: Friday, November 02, 2001 6:22 PM Subject: Re: CPU design at the gate level > Richard Erlacher wrote: > > > > While it's true that TTL and work-alike CMOS is found everywhere, if you go with > > a parts list, you'll find you're unable to get a substantial range of parts > > these days. You may be able to find the parts eventually, but the investment in > > shipping is prohibitive. > > > > Unfortunately for the builders of "one-of's," like me (spelled one-off's in some > > places, for reasons I don't understand), the programmable logic comes in > > packages that are really inconvenient for that purpose. Nowadays, you're > > required to use a 1000+ pin BGA package to get the quantity of logic that you'd > > like in a 44-pin PLCC. If you're really lucky with the fit, the device will > > allow you to use 10% of the gate count the marketing guys said you're paying > > for. The result is that you have to use a PGA package that lists for over $1k > > per part, or build an adapter board for the cheaper TQFP part, with a total > > cost, when you're done, of over $1k per each anyway, and then, to make matters > > worse, only one in 7 of these adapter boards will turn out to be properly > > soldered, so you waste 6 FPGA's costing $300 each. That's why product > > development that once required a cash outlay of $500 now costs $500 million. > > > > Dick > > Don't forget the $500 minimum order per line item. I suspect you need > all the 1000+ pins since > only 50% of the pins are usable -- the power,ground and configuration > pins take up a lot of space. > Ben Franchuk. > -- > Standard Disclaimer : 97% speculation 2% bad grammar 1% facts. > "Pre-historic Cpu's" http://www.jetnet.ab.ca/users/bfranchuk > > From cisin at xenosoft.com Fri Nov 2 21:34:12 2001 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin (XenoSoft)) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:25 2005 Subject: One-off vs. One-of (was Re: CPU design at the gate level) In-Reply-To: <001401c16415$61a86040$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> Message-ID: The phrase has been around more than 30 years, even if you kids have been hanging out amongst those who don't use it. -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin@xenosoft.com On Fri, 2 Nov 2001, Richard Erlacher wrote: > Well, that's interesting for sure. Having been in engineering since 1963, I > have to say I've heard the term "one-of" countless times, since that's been the > main thrust of my work since that time, and it is short for one-of-a-kind, while > I started running into the term "one-off" only in the past decade, and, in fact, > have never actually heard it used, only having seen it written. For that > reason, I always thought of it as one of the countless spelling errors one runs > into in the engineering community more and more as engineers are taught to be > literate less and less. > > It surprises me, of course, that a term could be so widely understood, yet used > so seldom by those with whom I've worked, over the past three decades and more, > that I've never heard it used, even once, that I can recall. > > I've heard that explanation a number of times, but still am uncomfortable with > it, as it seems to me to be a misuse/abuse of the language. Perhaps I'm being > too pedantic. > > Dick > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Ethan Dicks" > To: > Sent: Friday, November 02, 2001 4:22 PM > Subject: One-off vs. One-of (was Re: CPU design at the gate level) > > > > > > --- Richard Erlacher wrote: > > > Unfortunately for the builders of "one-of's," like me (spelled one-off's > > > in some places, for reasons I don't understand)... > > > > It's not just spelled "one-off", it's pronounced "one-off" - as in > > "Wan Awf", not "Wan Ov". It's an engineer's term for a prototype. > > > > I think you are interpreting it as short for "one of a kind" which I > > don't think it is exactly an abbreviation for. It might be short for > > "run one off the assembly line and stop", though. > > > > Not sure of the history, but it really is "one-off". I first heard the > > term used 17 years ago, not that _it_ was new to the industry, but _I_ > > was new, then. > > > > -ethan > > From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Fri Nov 2 21:43:07 2001 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (ajp166) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:25 2005 Subject: CPU design at the gate level Message-ID: <010a01c1641b$ac9b0660$d0f09a8d@ajp166> From: Ben Franchuk >74x00's are still common - I still can get that at Radio-shack for $2.00 >in a bubble >package here in Canada. It is rare chips ALU's, carry look aheads, 16x4 >memory >that you can't find. The $.10 surplus TTL days are long gone. Ben >Franchuk. Good thing too as most of the surplus parts were off spec... I was burned a few times back when. At least three vendors have most of the TTL line, JDR being one. I might add that in '73 I did a TTL design, finding many of the chips that were in the books was a task as many were unobtainium. Allison From blstuart at bellsouth.net Fri Nov 2 23:29:35 2001 From: blstuart at bellsouth.net (blstuart@bellsouth.net) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:25 2005 Subject: One-off vs. One-of (was Re: CPU design at the gate level) In-Reply-To: Your message of Fri, 2 Nov 2001 20:12:33 -0700 . <001401c16415$61a86040$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> Message-ID: In message <001401c16415$61a86040$9cc762d8@idcomm.com>, "Richard Erlacher" writ es: >Well, that's interesting for sure. Having been in engineering since 1963, I >have to say I've heard the term "one-of" countless times, since that's been th >e [...] >It surprises me, of course, that a term could be so widely understood, yet use >d >so seldom by those with whom I've worked, over the past three decades and more >, >that I've never heard it used, even once, that I can recall. Facinating. Now I can't say I've been in engineering that long (only since about '80 except for a little goofing around in high school). However, my experience has been almost exactly the opposite. I've always heard and used one-off. It's been this thread that has introduced me to the term one-of. Brian L. Stuart From cmcmanis at mcmanis.com Fri Nov 2 22:44:20 2001 From: cmcmanis at mcmanis.com (Chuck McManis) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:25 2005 Subject: CPU design at the gate level In-Reply-To: <3BE346D6.BF0D29B6@jetnet.ab.ca> References: <469.706T2600T12976581optimus@canit.se> <000301c163f0$31ccf0e0$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> Message-ID: <5.0.0.25.2.20011102203309.027295b0@209.185.79.193> > > Nowadays, you're > > required to use a 1000+ pin BGA package to get the quantity of logic > that you'd > > like in a 44-pin PLCC. The above statement is completely untrue. You can get 10 - 100x the "ttl" equivalent logic in a 44 pin PLCC. Check out the XC9572 some time, depending on your logic you can replace a whole bunch of TTL and they are $5.53 each from Digikey, quantity 1. Or go to 84 pin PLCC, still allows you to do through hole work for $7.00 and get 50% more gates. > If you're really lucky with the fit, the device will > > allow you to use 10% of the gate count the marketing guys said you're > paying > > for. If you're a really lousy logic designer you can create crap anywhere, no need to go the FPGA route. [the price comments were still more crap] >Don't forget the $500 minimum order per line item. I suspect you need >all the 1000+ pins since only 50% of the pins are usable -- the power, >ground and configuration pins take up a lot of space. If you use something like the XV1000 (1 MILLION equivalent gates, then yes the chip will cost you $1700 and you can design in a complete PDP-11/70, GT-44 subsystem, RL/RK/RX controllers, SDRAM memory controller, front panel for blinken lights, full floating point, CIS and EIS instruction sets and a programmable microstore with about half the damn chip left over. Sheesh, don't dis 'em if you don't know anything about them. --Chuck From optimus at canit.se Fri Nov 2 22:59:47 2001 From: optimus at canit.se (Iggy Drougge) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:25 2005 Subject: EISA - was VLB SCSI? In-Reply-To: <01C163C2.12512E80@mse-d03> Message-ID: <1058.707T2350T3595615optimus@canit.se> M H Stein skrev: >Thanks for the tip; will give it a try now that you've reassured me. >I don't think it's the battery since the config is stable, i.e. the >power can be off for a weekend and everything's still fine when it's >powered up again, just that annoying F1 request, and the problem started >when I removed that modem and had to change IRQ's. I was reluctant to >pull the battery & reset the config in case that really messed things >up; at least now it's bootable. But sounds like it can't hurt to replace >the battery, so might as well while I'm at it. Since I've been reinitialising and updating my Proliant this night, I have some fresh knowledge. Could it be that you've left some pieces of the config from when you still had the modem on the config partition? Any change in an EISA system has to be handled in the config partition. It's a real pain if you're experimenting together a system. -- En ligne avec Thor 2.6a. "Jag ?r 35 ?r och citerar planetens och v?rldshistoriens b?sta anime hur mycket jag vill, bl?jbarn." ?ke Rosenius From optimus at canit.se Fri Nov 2 23:29:58 2001 From: optimus at canit.se (Iggy Drougge) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:25 2005 Subject: Thick Ethernet/Sun networking problems In-Reply-To: <11352.1004692398@www21.gmx.net> Message-ID: <2332.707T2900T3896141optimus@canit.se> Arno Kletzander skrev: >>On most of the Ethernet-enabled printers I've come across (mostly HPs, >>Lexmarks, and Xeroxes) you >can do the setup from the front panel -- >>sometimes tedious, but usually not too hard to understand. >No such menu item or anything related to Ethernet. AFAICFO (as far as I >could find out, adding to the current acronymania...) on the Internet, this >is the procedure for configuring the Ethernet adaptor used in this printer: >#Configuring the 971 ># >#Connect the network cable to the appropriate connector. ># >#The following tasks are accomplished by the system administrator: >#-Make an entry in the ARP table >#-Telnet to port 2002 >#-Configure the 971 in accordance with your operating system's requirements >However, with us there is no sys admin - so how can we 'accomplish these >tasks'? You can find out the ethernet MAC address for the printer, right? Then create an ARP entry for that one. On BSDs (the UNIX type I'm familiar with), it's done with: arp -s arp -s hostname ether_addr Explanation snipped from the man page: -s hostname ether_addr Create an ARP entry for the host called hostname with the Ether- net address ether_addr. The Ethernet address is given as six hex bytes separated by colons. The entry will be permanent unless the word temp is given in the command. If the word pub is given, the entry will be "published"; i.e., this system will act as an ARP server, responding to requests for hostname even though the host address is not its own. [snip] >CalComp Internal Ethernet Adapter >Revision 4.11, Datecode 12/20 1994 10:20 >Burnin Value = 0 SRAM = 256K bytes, Novram = 128 bytes >Ethernet address 00 C0 E2 00 0C 8E >Ethernet options: Ignore Alignment Errors Auxilliary data port = 0 >IP address: 111.1.0.1 >Telnet password security: OFF [snip] I suppose the IP address above doesn't work? Try: telnet 111.1.0.1 2002 All right, if that doesn't work, we'll have to do the abovementioned entry in the ARP table, using the Ethernet address seen above: arp -s calcomp 00:c0:e2:00:0c:8e Now you've made an ARP entry. So if we do: telnet calcomp 2002 What happens? -- En ligne avec Thor 2.6a. The first rule of intelligent tinkering is to save all the parts. From donm at cts.com Sat Nov 3 00:16:26 2001 From: donm at cts.com (Don Maslin) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:25 2005 Subject: One-off vs. One-of (was Re: CPU design at the gate level) In-Reply-To: <001401c16415$61a86040$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> Message-ID: On Fri, 2 Nov 2001, Richard Erlacher wrote: > Well, that's interesting for sure. Having been in engineering since 1963, I > have to say I've heard the term "one-of" countless times, since that's been the > main thrust of my work since that time, and it is short for one-of-a-kind, while > I started running into the term "one-off" only in the past decade, and, in fact, > have never actually heard it used, only having seen it written. For that > reason, I always thought of it as one of the countless spelling errors one runs > into in the engineering community more and more as engineers are taught to be > literate less and less. > > It surprises me, of course, that a term could be so widely understood, yet used > so seldom by those with whom I've worked, over the past three decades and more, > that I've never heard it used, even once, that I can recall. > > I've heard that explanation a number of times, but still am uncomfortable with > it, as it seems to me to be a misuse/abuse of the language. Perhaps I'm being > too pedantic. > > Dick I am uncertain if I ever saw it in written form until now, but the spoken `one off' was rather common in the flight test arena here in San Diego back in the mid 50s, and I think I may have heard it in a Westinghouse model shop as far back as the middle 40s. - don > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Ethan Dicks" > To: > Sent: Friday, November 02, 2001 4:22 PM > Subject: One-off vs. One-of (was Re: CPU design at the gate level) > > > > > > --- Richard Erlacher wrote: > > > Unfortunately for the builders of "one-of's," like me (spelled one-off's > > > in some places, for reasons I don't understand)... > > > > It's not just spelled "one-off", it's pronounced "one-off" - as in > > "Wan Awf", not "Wan Ov". It's an engineer's term for a prototype. > > > > I think you are interpreting it as short for "one of a kind" which I > > don't think it is exactly an abbreviation for. It might be short for > > "run one off the assembly line and stop", though. > > > > Not sure of the history, but it really is "one-off". I first heard the > > term used 17 years ago, not that _it_ was new to the industry, but _I_ > > was new, then. > > > > -ethan > > > > > > > > __________________________________________________ > > Do You Yahoo!? > > Find a job, post your resume. > > http://careers.yahoo.com > > > > > > From gwynp at artware.qc.ca Sat Nov 3 00:14:59 2001 From: gwynp at artware.qc.ca (gwynp@artware.qc.ca) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:25 2005 Subject: OffTopic: Intel's dependent on the Alpha chip... In-Reply-To: <200111021506.fA2F6kl20824@weedcon1.cropsci.ncsu.edu> Message-ID: On 02-Nov-2001 NetBSD Bob wrote: > I can't resist this one....(:+}}... I ran a Model 80 with AIX 1 from > 1988 through 2000, with nary a burp, except for an HD that dived after > about 5 years. What versions of AIX are supported on the Model 80? And where would I be able to get it :) I have a model 80 that's just looking form some "game" to play on it. -Philip From optimus at canit.se Sat Nov 3 01:23:58 2001 From: optimus at canit.se (Iggy Drougge) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:25 2005 Subject: Thick Ethernet/Sun networking problems In-Reply-To: <10111022116.ZM29509@mindy.dunnington.u-net.com> Message-ID: <966.707T2900T5036821optimus@canit.se> Pete Turnbull skrev: >I was about to reply to Arno's post, and was thinking about (R)ARP while >having my dinner. It's a bit odd the way it says to "make an entry in the >ARP table" because that's NOT what you do, exactly. The ARP table on a >host has nothing to do with providing responses to other things that need >information in order to boot, it's just used to map MAC addresses (Ethernet >addresses, typically) to IP addresses when talking to other hosts known by >IP address. But I'm sure it's just a case of Calcomp getting the >terminolgy slightly wrong. Well, it certainly does the trick for Intel print servers. To set the IP address on a Netport Express, you first give it an IP through the "arp" utility, then ping it, which will make the Netport inherit the IP with which it was pinged. Quite ingenious. -- En ligne avec Thor 2.6a. Goto: A programming tool that exists to allow structured programmers to complain about unstructured programmers. From vance at ikickass.org Sat Nov 3 01:33:21 2001 From: vance at ikickass.org (One Without Reason) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:25 2005 Subject: EISA - was VLB SCSI? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Probably not, actually. Since it's EISA, he will probably need the configuration diskette. Peace... Sridhar On Thu, 1 Nov 2001, Mike Ford wrote: > >Hmmm, that reminds me: > > > >I have an EISA Compaq 486sx at a client site from which I had to remove > >an add-on internal modem; ran the diagnostic/configuration program, it > >says everything's fine, but when it boots it stops waiting for F1 saying > >the configuration's incorrect. Press F1 to continue & everything works, > > just a nuisance 'cause it can't restart after a power failure without > >someone there to press F1. > >Any ideas? > > Check the cmos battery. > > From vance at ikickass.org Sat Nov 3 01:35:53 2001 From: vance at ikickass.org (One Without Reason) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:25 2005 Subject: EISA - was VLB SCSI? In-Reply-To: <3BE24F31.6CC11888@internet1.net> Message-ID: But, since it's EISA, he'll still need the config diskette even if he wipes the settings. Peace... Sridhar On Fri, 2 Nov 2001, Chad Fernandez wrote: > re-read what he said..... he isn't loosing the configuration, it justs > wants attention. I have had this happen before too. I just change > things until it stops :-) I think something gets crossed up when > changing things around too much, and it asks for F1 to be pressed. You > can start over from scratch by pulling the battery..... I have had to do > that once or twice when I really screwed things up, to the point that it > hung while the bios was loading :-) > > Chad Fernandez > Michigan, USA > > Mike Ford wrote: > > > > >Hmmm, that reminds me: > > > > > >I have an EISA Compaq 486sx at a client site from which I had to remove > > >an add-on internal modem; ran the diagnostic/configuration program, it > > >says everything's fine, but when it boots it stops waiting for F1 saying > > >the configuration's incorrect. Press F1 to continue & everything works, > > > just a nuisance 'cause it can't restart after a power failure without > > >someone there to press F1. > > >Any ideas? > > > > Check the cmos battery. > From vance at ikickass.org Sat Nov 3 01:42:27 2001 From: vance at ikickass.org (One Without Reason) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:25 2005 Subject: EISA - was VLB SCSI? In-Reply-To: <01C163A5.B4EFC290.technos@nerdland.org> Message-ID: Ever seen VLB/Microchannel? Fun fun fun. Peace... Sridhar On Fri, 2 Nov 2001, Jim wrote: > Nope. VLB/ISA. > > Jim > > On Friday, November 02, 2001 11:25 AM, Chad Fernandez > [SMTP:fernande@internet1.net] wrote: > > > > Jim, > > > > The NCR's were Microchannel weren't they? From vance at ikickass.org Sat Nov 3 01:47:35 2001 From: vance at ikickass.org (One Without Reason) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:25 2005 Subject: OffTopic: Intel's dependent on the Alpha chip... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Indeed. I have six running here identically configured with P90 Type-IV complexes running Linux 2.4.10. A wall of identical pretty machines are awesome, especially since they are strong enough to put a board across and sit on. 8-) Peace... Sridhar On Fri, 2 Nov 2001, Mike Ford wrote: > >> Where I used to work, there was an IBM PS/2 model 80 that was installed > > >I can't resist this one....(:+}}... I ran a Model 80 with AIX 1 from 1988 > >through 2000, with nary a burp, except for an HD that dived after about 5 > > The model 95 though is not only indestructible, its pretty, especially from > the back with the bronze internal case, very tech looking. > > From fernande at internet1.net Sat Nov 3 03:05:15 2001 From: fernande at internet1.net (Chad Fernandez) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:25 2005 Subject: EISA - was VLB SCSI? References: Message-ID: <3BE3B34B.EB235811@internet1.net> On what? I've never heard of that combination. Only Microchannel and PCI or EISA in a few of the almost PS/2, but not quite the next thing, IBM servers. Chad Fernandez Michigan, USA One Without Reason wrote: > > Ever seen VLB/Microchannel? Fun fun fun. > > Peace... Sridhar > > On Fri, 2 Nov 2001, Jim wrote: > > > Nope. VLB/ISA. > > > > Jim > > > > On Friday, November 02, 2001 11:25 AM, Chad Fernandez > > [SMTP:fernande@internet1.net] wrote: > > > > > > Jim, > > > > > > The NCR's were Microchannel weren't they? From vance at ikickass.org Sat Nov 3 04:17:50 2001 From: vance at ikickass.org (One Without Reason) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:25 2005 Subject: VT330/VT340 Manual Message-ID: Anyone know where I might find the manual for a VT330 or VT340 online? I am looking for configuration info and factory default settings and other things of that nature. I would also appreciate it if someone could give me pointers on my DECserver 700. Thanks a lot. Peace... Sridhar From pete at dunnington.u-net.com Sat Nov 3 05:21:37 2001 From: pete at dunnington.u-net.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:25 2005 Subject: Thick Ethernet/Sun networking problems In-Reply-To: "Iggy Drougge" "Re: Thick Ethernet/Sun networking problems" (Nov 3, 8:23) References: <966.707T2900T5036821optimus@canit.se> Message-ID: <10111031121.ZM208@mindy.dunnington.u-net.com> On Nov 3, 8:23, Iggy Drougge wrote: > Well, it certainly does the trick for Intel print servers. > To set the IP address on a Netport Express, you first give it an IP through > the "arp" utility, then ping it, which will make the Netport inherit the IP > with which it was pinged. Quite ingenious. That uses a cheat that's built in to Intel print servers. As Iggy says, the print server listens to all the packets that go past, and infers its IP address from the address contained in the first ICMP packet it sees which contains its own MAC address. It's not the normal way of doing it at all, and it's not reverse-ARP, which Lawrence said the printer used. It's worth a try, though, since it would only take a few moments to test. And the Calcomp web page does say "make an entry in the ARP table". -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager University of York From jhellige at earthlink.net Sat Nov 3 05:19:57 2001 From: jhellige at earthlink.net (Jeff Hellige) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:25 2005 Subject: OS9 or Flex09 on 8" disk needed In-Reply-To: <3BE349B7.86F0B923@jetnet.ab.ca> References: <01Nov2.155752est.119205@gateway.mediacen.navy.mil> <3BE349B7.86F0B923@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: >I thought try this ... >"The Missing 6809 UniFLEX Archive" http://www.rtmx.com/UniFLEX/ >but the webpage is now missing! Does anybody know what happened to it? >This very bad when old information vanishes with out a trace on the web. >Ben Franchuk. >PS the flex web page >http://www.evenson-consulting.com/flexusergroup/default.htm Actually, I should have been more specific. My problem is that I don't have disk images of the Flex system disk I'm looking for, my problem is transferring the image back to floppy as I don't currently have any machines using 8" drives. Michael Evenson has quite a selection of software on his SWTPCemu CD, as does the FLEX User's Group in their archives. Jeff -- Home of the TRS-80 Model 2000 FAQ File http://www.cchaven.com http://www.geocities.com/siliconvalley/lakes/6757 From pete at dunnington.u-net.com Sat Nov 3 05:25:44 2001 From: pete at dunnington.u-net.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:25 2005 Subject: One-off vs. One-of (was Re: CPU design at the gate level) In-Reply-To: "Richard Erlacher" "Re: One-off vs. One-of (was Re: CPU design at the gate level)" (Nov 2, 20:12) References: <20011102232200.49302.qmail@web20102.mail.yahoo.com> <001401c16415$61a86040$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> Message-ID: <10111031125.ZM215@mindy.dunnington.u-net.com> On Nov 2, 20:12, Richard Erlacher wrote: > Well, that's interesting for sure. Having been in engineering since 1963, I > have to say I've heard the term "one-of" countless times, since that's been the > main thrust of my work since that time, and it is short for one-of-a-kind I've never heard "one-of" before, only "one off" (and "2 off", "3 off", etc) to describe a quantity. It's commonly used here, not just in engineering. -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager University of York From fdebros at verizon.net Sat Nov 3 06:16:39 2001 From: fdebros at verizon.net (Fred deBros) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:25 2005 Subject: VT330/VT340 Manual In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <000901c16461$64545be0$6501a8c0@fred> http://vt100.net/docs/vt3xx-gp/contents.html -----Original Message----- From: owner-classiccmp@classiccmp.org [mailto:owner-classiccmp@classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of One Without Reason Sent: Saturday, 03 November, 2001 05.18 To: Classic Computers Mailing List Subject: VT330/VT340 Manual Anyone know where I might find the manual for a VT330 or VT340 online? I am looking for configuration info and factory default settings and other things of that nature. I would also appreciate it if someone could give me pointers on my DECserver 700. Thanks a lot. Peace... Sridhar From jfoust at threedee.com Sat Nov 3 07:13:08 2001 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:25 2005 Subject: TU-10, TU-80CA free for pickup in Milwaukee, WI USA Message-ID: <4.3.2.7.0.20011103071139.02383930@pc> Please contact Mike directly, and give your phone number... he may have other items available. - John From: Michael Hanus Subject: Old DEC tape drives In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.0.20011026094202.021c0df0@pc> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Status: John, Here are the items I have These are all FREE to first taker... I would like them gone by 11-12-01 I can move to a storage location for later pickup for a small payment in advance. Contact me for details. TU-10 9 track tape drive, complete in 72" rack was functional when removed from service 8-10 years ago 800 BPI Does NOT include Unibus interface TU80-CA tape drive, 1600 BPI S/N SPF 8142 In horz "lowboy" cabinet, same height as RK-07 Includes Unibus interface TK-25 drive, power supply bad, no Q-bus interface Please contact me via email and I will call via phone Thank you, Michael Hanus From rhblakeman at kih.net Sat Nov 3 07:24:19 2001 From: rhblakeman at kih.net (Russ Blakeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:26 2005 Subject: Need a source and info on a memory chip Message-ID: This is off topic but I know that someone in this list will have the answer. What I need is a surface mount memory chip for a PDA 16mb upgrade of internal memory. The chip in it is an 8 and I've seen a unit with a piggybacked chip on it with a jumper run from the Motorola Dragonball cpu (I basically drew out the mod on a Wendy's napkin it's that simple). Here's what's on the face of the present 8mb chip (the piggy back will be the same or suitable sub): ---------------------------- HYUNDAI GM71VS65163CLT5 0040 AG2 KOREA ---------------------------- It's a surface mount chip that is a 50 pin DIP package (2 rows of 25 pins). I'll need one initially and end up needing around 25 so I might as well get all 25 at one time. Does anyone know where I can get a specs and/or pinout of this and a good source for purchase of small or large quantity? I want the pinouts/specs for curiousity and the source obviously for purchase rreasons. Any help is greatly appreciated. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20011103/c4da46db/attachment.html From pechter at ureach.com Sat Nov 3 07:59:49 2001 From: pechter at ureach.com (Bill Pechter) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:26 2005 Subject: value of classic DEC machines? Message-ID: <200111031359.IAA02607@stage21.ureach.com> ---- On Thu, 01 Nov 2001, UberTechnoid@home.com (UberTechnoid@home.com) wrote: > There's Allison for one. I don't think we raise our little girls to > glorify techweenie stuff. I hope my stepdaughter turns out different. > She has Solaris Sparc, OS/2, Windows, DataGeneral MV, and Atari > sticktime > allready and she is only five! > > Regards, > > Jeff Well, my daughter's 7 1/2 and she's got access to Sparc Solaris, Solaris x86, SunOS4, FreeBSD, VAX/VMS er OpenVMS Vax, Win9x, OS/2, CP/M, PC-DOS, Win3.11 and Linux (x86). Her main fun... http://www.hampsterdance2.com from her Win9x box and Rogue and xlockmore on FreeBSD. I'm hoping for more interest in the latter. I'm seeing no signs of interest in how the stuff works beyond her help with screwing the stuff together. She must have picked up the field service genes. Bill From hansp at aconit.org Sat Nov 3 09:27:38 2001 From: hansp at aconit.org (Hans B Pufal) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:26 2005 Subject: Picture books of old computers References: <006001c163e8$59646a00$a77ba8c0@merlin> Message-ID: <3BE40CEA.9070200@aconit.org> Dave Babcock wrote: > This link still seems to be up though: Hey ! That is my raw databse. Should list about 5000 computers. As Sellam mentioned my site no longer on line due to Interliant, my (then) ISP, terminating my service with no advance notice. This was several months ago and they continue to bill me for the non-service they are providing! Anyways I have been trying to finnd time to move the list to a mySQL database on my new service. Hope to do it real soon now (tm). -- Hans From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Sat Nov 3 10:23:00 2001 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (Ben Franchuk) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:26 2005 Subject: CPU design at the gate level References: <469.706T2600T12976581optimus@canit.se> <000301c163f0$31ccf0e0$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> <5.0.0.25.2.20011102203309.027295b0@209.185.79.193> Message-ID: <3BE419E4.CDA97E80@jetnet.ab.ca> Chuck McManis wrote: > The above statement is completely untrue. You can get 10 - 100x the "ttl" > equivalent logic in a 44 pin PLCC. Check out the XC9572 some time, > depending on your logic you can replace a whole bunch of TTL and they are > $5.53 each from Digikey, quantity 1. Or go to 84 pin PLCC, still allows you > to do through hole work for $7.00 and get 50% more gates. That is true but random logic is hard to judge how much will fit in a FPGA. Normal glue logic often fits well as well as simple I/O devices like a printer port. It is random state logic, Alu's and memory devices that don't fit well and that is often what is needed. Note you can still find the old TTL but you pay a arm and a leg for them. A 74LS181 that was $1 in jameco is now $4 here. A 74LS382 is $8.00. If you need old replacement parts this looks to be the spot. http://www.rocelec.com/ Note the 74182 is the carry lookahead. > If you're a really lousy logic designer you can create crap anywhere, no > need to go the FPGA route. Not in all cases, porting a TTL board to FPGA macros can take up a lot of macro cells. The moment you clean up the logic you risk becoming non portable. > If you use something like the XV1000 (1 MILLION equivalent gates, then yes > the chip will cost you $1700 and you can design in a complete PDP-11/70, > GT-44 subsystem, RL/RK/RX controllers, SDRAM memory controller, front panel > for blinken lights, full floating point, CIS and EIS instruction sets and a > programmable microstore with about half the damn chip left over. Four chips are fine -- CPU,I/O and 256Kx16 memory. But ya got have that front panel! Makes for a mighty thin RACK mount.:) > --Chuck Ben franchuk. PS.Not having used a PDP-11 I could be wrong about the memory. From jss at subatomix.com Sat Nov 3 10:29:13 2001 From: jss at subatomix.com (Jeffrey S. Sharp) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:26 2005 Subject: Picture books of old computers In-Reply-To: <3BE40CEA.9070200@aconit.org> Message-ID: <20011103102815.M83721-100000@lepton.subatomix.com> On Sat, 3 Nov 2001, Hans B Pufal wrote: > [T]hey continue to bill me for the non-service they are providing! I hope you don't continue to pay them... -- Jeffrey S. Sharp jss@subatomix.com From edick at idcomm.com Sat Nov 3 11:56:40 2001 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:26 2005 Subject: CPU design at the gate level References: <010a01c1641b$ac9b0660$d0f09a8d@ajp166> Message-ID: <001f01c16490$e4190e00$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> Actually, the only sources from whom one could, back when, rely on getting out-of-spec parts were Poly-Pak and Radio Shack. At one time, one of my clients was particularly pressed into buying 5-volt and 12-volt 3-terminal regulators from RS because lead times were long and they needed to get boards and cabinetry assembled in time for the holidays, so they bought regulators, some 1200 of them from RS which wasn't an easy thing to do. Ultimately we established that, of those 1200 regulators, not a one was in spec as far as the voltage it produced. Some were out under light load, as for one drive, and some were out under heavy load, as for a HDD. What we concluded from this was that RS had bought parts that had already been rejected at either outgoing or incoming inspection, and they were shipping those, either as parts or as parts of assemblies. Otherwise, at least SOME of the parts were probably going to be within spec. Recent experience supports this notion, as a kid up the street came to me with a voltage regulator + pass transistor circuit he'd built, and correctly from what I could see, for a project of his, but he'd used a regulator from RS, and it was just not within spec. Fortunately, you can easily enough get parts that are in spec just so you don't go to RS. Dick ----- Original Message ----- From: "ajp166" To: Sent: Friday, November 02, 2001 8:43 PM Subject: Re: CPU design at the gate level > From: Ben Franchuk > >74x00's are still common - I still can get that at Radio-shack for $2.00 > >in a bubble > >package here in Canada. It is rare chips ALU's, carry look aheads, 16x4 > >memory > >that you can't find. The $.10 surplus TTL days are long gone. Ben > >Franchuk. > > > > Good thing too as most of the surplus parts were off spec... I was burned > a few times back when. > > At least three vendors have most of the TTL line, JDR being one. > > I might add that in '73 I did a TTL design, finding many of the chips > that > were in the books was a task as many were unobtainium. > > Allison > > > From edick at idcomm.com Sat Nov 3 12:03:42 2001 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:26 2005 Subject: One-off vs. One-of (was Re: CPU design at the gate level) References: Message-ID: <002701c16491$e164ce00$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> Well, it's not that I've not travelled to both coasts (though I've avoided Texas and Arizona) in the course of the last 30 years, but perhaps it's just the insular nature of the Colorado front-range community. It's not a term I hear in normal discussions of this sort around here. I asked one of the fellows who's been working since the '70's at one of the old surplus electronics houses here, and he's not accustomed to the term "one-off" though, like me, he does remember hearing folks using "one-of" to refer to a single item project. He did know what I meant, however. Dick ----- Original Message ----- From: To: Sent: Friday, November 02, 2001 10:29 PM Subject: Re: One-off vs. One-of (was Re: CPU design at the gate level) > In message <001401c16415$61a86040$9cc762d8@idcomm.com>, "Richard Erlacher" writ > es: > >Well, that's interesting for sure. Having been in engineering since 1963, I > >have to say I've heard the term "one-of" countless times, since that's been th > >e > [...] > >It surprises me, of course, that a term could be so widely understood, yet use > >d > >so seldom by those with whom I've worked, over the past three decades and more > >, > >that I've never heard it used, even once, that I can recall. > > Facinating. Now I can't say I've been in engineering that long > (only since about '80 except for a little goofing around in > high school). However, my experience has been almost exactly > the opposite. I've always heard and used one-off. It's been > this thread that has introduced me to the term one-of. > > Brian L. Stuart > > From mcclure3 at home.com Sat Nov 3 12:04:38 2001 From: mcclure3 at home.com (Don McClure) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:26 2005 Subject: Cable and connector source In-Reply-To: <200111021845.MAA47699@opal.tseinc.com> Message-ID: on 11/2/01 1:45 PM, classiccmp-digest at owner-classiccmp-digest@classiccmp.org wrote: > 6-pin mini-DIN is what a PS/2 mouse uses. > > For "raw" parts how about http://www.jameco.com/ ? > > - -Philip Yes, PS/2 keyboard/mouse uses the same mini-DIN, but the wiring is completely different. Thanks for the URL... Don McClure Bel Air, MD From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat Nov 3 12:34:42 2001 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:26 2005 Subject: CPU design at the gate level In-Reply-To: <003a01c16416$09cd6b80$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> from "Richard Erlacher" at Nov 2, 1 08:17:15 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1560 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20011103/1fdba9d2/attachment.ksh From edick at idcomm.com Sat Nov 3 12:48:53 2001 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:26 2005 Subject: CPU design at the gate level References: <469.706T2600T12976581optimus@canit.se> <000301c163f0$31ccf0e0$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> <5.0.0.25.2.20011102203309.027295b0@209.185.79.193> Message-ID: <002d01c16498$3bdb02e0$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> see below, plz. Dick ----- Original Message ----- From: "Chuck McManis" To: Sent: Friday, November 02, 2001 9:44 PM Subject: Re: CPU design at the gate level > > > > Nowadays, you're > > > required to use a 1000+ pin BGA package to get the quantity of logic > > that you'd > > > like in a 44-pin PLCC. > > The above statement is completely untrue. You can get 10 - 100x the "ttl" > equivalent logic in a 44 pin PLCC. Check out the XC9572 some time, > depending on your logic you can replace a whole bunch of TTL and they are > $5.53 each from Digikey, quantity 1. Or go to 84 pin PLCC, still allows you > to do through hole work for $7.00 and get 50% more gates. > I think you've misinterpreted what I meant with "what you'd like." I once lamented that I couldn't get a 100K gates in an 8-pin package, an obvious impossiblility because of the die size, because the presence of the extra pins made me feel the device contents could be too easily compromised. I'm quite familiar with the XC9572. and it is available in a 44-pin part. However, it's not an FPGA, and the fact that it isn't makes a big difference in how much of the purported gate count you can actually use. With cpld's like the XC9572, you can use pretty much all the available logic without a hitch, though it still won't approach their (XILINX's) gate count. Their marketing guys have decided at some point to take the most extreme interpretation of "gate-count" i.e. a count based on the definition of a gate as a two-input NAND, and they count gates based on the notion that a three-input nand requires two NANDs plus one as an inverter, so they count it as three gates. On that basis the usual 6 gates required for a 'D' register become quite a few more, and, of course, a 32-bit LUT has 32 of them, plus a bunch more to decode the LUT, right? That's what you consume to build just one functional gate, though, isn't it? My point was and is that the "gate count" has amost no direct correspondence to what you can put into a device. After a while you learn what each device can do for you and so long as you don't try to switch from one family to another, you can almost rely on what you learn. > > > If you're really lucky with the fit, the device will > > > allow you to use 10% of the gate count the marketing guys said you're > > paying > > > for. > > If you're a really lousy logic designer you can create crap anywhere, no > need to go the FPGA route. > I recently went a round with the Altera folks, only to find that their current software wouldn't, no matter how hard you tried, produce a fuse map for one of their "classic" devices that the software that was popular with those devices (APLUS+) would readily yield. The MaxPlus-2 software requires exactly twice the resources that the old APLUS+ required to create the same construct. Try generating a COLF (combinatorial output with latched feedback) macrocell architecture in the current generation of Altera, or, for that matter, Xilinx, software and see how much of the device resources it requires. Try building the logical equivalent of a 74BCT2424 using the current generation software and see what their devices leave over. Now try to fit that into a device that has the same pin count. > > [the price comments were still more crap] > You wouldn't say that if you'd ever had to deal with the actual costs yourself. > If you try to use a couple of their higher-gate-count parts you'll find they're not readily available in packages you can use for prototyping without first mounting the parts on an adapter PCB. The BGA's are notoriously difficult to attach to such adapters and, since that requires lots of effort, it's costly. If you'd ever tried this, you'd know what I mean. The parts folks use in production, e.g. the pqfp and tqfp packages are impossible to use in prototypes because of their fragility. Getting around that means a large cost. If you're building a revision of an established product and have a deep-pocketed employer, you can get by with this, but if you're building a proof of concept, which is what these devices should do best, being readily reprogrammable, the mechanical constraints and costs get in the way. > > >Don't forget the $500 minimum order per line item. I suspect you need > >all the 1000+ pins since only 50% of the pins are usable -- the power, > >ground and configuration pins take up a lot of space. > If you look at some of the considerably smaller (in putative gate count) devices in PGA packages you will see that Avnet, among others lists these parts at ridiculous prices, probably because of the limited consumption of that package. > > If you use something like the XV1000 (1 MILLION equivalent gates, then yes > the chip will cost you $1700 and you can design in a complete PDP-11/70, > GT-44 subsystem, RL/RK/RX controllers, SDRAM memory controller, front panel > for blinken lights, full floating point, CIS and EIS instruction sets and a > programmable microstore with about half the damn chip left over. > I don't think you actually believe that, though it seems you do believe some of what their marketing folks tell you. However, the fact you have half the chip left over is because you can't route to the unused resources and still maintain timing constraints. > > Sheesh, don't dis 'em if you don't know anything about them. > They're useable devices, to wit, you can't do anything these days without 'em, but they're falsely advertised, not convenient to use over their full range, and VERY costly to use. I have no respect for their marketing claims, but mainly have problems with their packaging because it's very difficult and costly to apply to my particular niche. > > --Chuck > > From edick at idcomm.com Sat Nov 3 13:01:49 2001 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:26 2005 Subject: CPU design at the gate level References: Message-ID: <005301c16499$fe3bf280$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> see below, plz. Dick ----- Original Message ----- From: "Tony Duell" To: Sent: Saturday, November 03, 2001 11:34 AM Subject: Re: CPU design at the gate level > > > > Well, if you have to repair a terminal with those adders, carry generators, etc, > > Sure, or a minicomputer CPU, a control system, a machine tool, or > whatever else uses them. Believe me, I don't like having to hunt around > for a $1 part to fix a mutli-thousand-dollar (or pound) machine. I'd like > to just go out and buy it. > > But, alas, the main market for ICs is not repairers. Nor is it > homebrewers (for whom a board of TTL chips is often a lot easier to debug > than an FPGA, and cheaper as well (a soldering iron is a lot cheaper than > the PC [1] to run the FPGA design tools, even if the latter are free). I > still believe it's educational to make at least one machine from MSI > chips. And also to make one using FPGAs. > > [1] I am not sure of the current list price of a modern PC + monitor + > Windows, but in the UK, you can get pre-packaged semi-proprietry machines > for about \pounds 1000. And a bit more if you want soemthing that's > reasonably standard and which you have some hope of being able to upgrade. > I just got an unsolicited email from a vendor in Texas that's asking $279 US for what's really an eMachines "eTower-633" (with the trademark badge missing form the front of the box) with a 15GB HDD, a DVD drive, 128MB RAM a 56KB modem, and the usual stuff along with a mouse and keyboard. No monitor and no OS. Shipping to anywhere in the continental U.S. is $35. A friend of mine bought one for his own use, and I helped him fiddle with it, and convinced myself that it's a good and solid enough machine. His hard disk failed and he had a replacement within a week, so the usual warranty mechanisms are in place as well. > > > in it, there's little you can do without them, aside, perhaps from building a > > daughterboard with a bunch of programmable parts, or at least one significant > > Yes, I've had to do that... > > > one. The latter always produces the risk of not providing the races that were > > designed into the original circuit and therefore failing due to proper design > > practice. > > Alas all too true. A lot of the TTL-based stuff from the 1970s has some > poor design practicies in it, but if it works, there's no reason to > attempt to redesign it. > > -tony > > From edick at idcomm.com Sat Nov 3 13:19:24 2001 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:26 2005 Subject: One-off vs. One-of (was Re: CPU design at the gate level) References: <20011102232200.49302.qmail@web20102.mail.yahoo.com> <001401c16415$61a86040$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> <10111031125.ZM215@mindy.dunnington.u-net.com> Message-ID: <005901c1649c$72a3d5a0$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> Yes, it makes me wonder where I've been. I've worked in the aircraft industry, rubber products manufacturing, aerospace, municipal engineering, and electronics, the latter for over twenty years, mainly building proof-of concept prototypes, yet I've not heard the terms "one off" (and "2 off", "3 off", etc.) to describe a quantity, as you've put it. I don't, even for a moment, deny that these are commonly used terms, as the response from this group certainly verifes they are, but, I'm puzzled that I've managed to avoid noticing for so long. Dick ----- Original Message ----- From: "Pete Turnbull" To: Sent: Saturday, November 03, 2001 4:25 AM Subject: Re: One-off vs. One-of (was Re: CPU design at the gate level) > On Nov 2, 20:12, Richard Erlacher wrote: > > Well, that's interesting for sure. Having been in engineering since > 1963, I > > have to say I've heard the term "one-of" countless times, since that's > been the > > main thrust of my work since that time, and it is short for one-of-a-kind > > I've never heard "one-of" before, only "one off" (and "2 off", "3 off", > etc) to describe a quantity. It's commonly used here, not just in > engineering. > > -- > Pete Peter Turnbull > Network Manager > University of York > > From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat Nov 3 12:44:20 2001 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:26 2005 Subject: CPU design at the gate level In-Reply-To: <010a01c1641b$ac9b0660$d0f09a8d@ajp166> from "ajp166" at Nov 2, 1 10:43:07 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 812 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20011103/4140c114/attachment.ksh From edick at idcomm.com Sat Nov 3 13:25:00 2001 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:26 2005 Subject: Need a source and info on a memory chip References: Message-ID: <006001c1649d$3af71940$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> If you run a GOOGLE search on GM71VS65163CLT5, which I just did, you'll be offered several sources, not all English-speaking, but it looks to me as though your needs can be met that way. I had to turn off HTML in your message, by the way, and, for the convenience of the others on this list, I'd recommend that you make plain-text your default setting. Dick +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ ----- Original Message ----- From: Russ Blakeman To: Classic computers message group Sent: Saturday, November 03, 2001 6:24 AM Subject: Need a source and info on a memory chip This is off topic but I know that someone in this list will have the answer. What I need is a surface mount memory chip for a PDA 16mb upgrade of internal memory. The chip in it is an 8 and I've seen a unit with a piggybacked chip on it with a jumper run from the Motorola Dragonball cpu (I basically drew out the mod on a Wendy's napkin it's that simple). Here's what's on the face of the present 8mb chip (the piggy back will be the same or suitable sub): ---------------------------- HYUNDAI GM71VS65163CLT5 0040 AG2 KOREA ---------------------------- It's a surface mount chip that is a 50 pin DIP package (2 rows of 25 pins). I'll need one initially and end up needing around 25 so I might as well get all 25 at one time. Does anyone know where I can get a specs and/or pinout of this and a good source for purchase of small or large quantity? I want the pinouts/specs for curiousity and the source obviously for purchase rreasons. Any help is greatly appreciated. From edick at idcomm.com Sat Nov 3 13:45:45 2001 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:26 2005 Subject: CPU design at the gate level References: <469.706T2600T12976581optimus@canit.se> <000301c163f0$31ccf0e0$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> <5.0.0.25.2.20011102203309.027295b0@209.185.79.193> <3BE419E4.CDA97E80@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <006601c164a0$213d6060$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> see below, plz. Dick ----- Original Message ----- From: "Ben Franchuk" To: Sent: Saturday, November 03, 2001 9:23 AM Subject: Re: CPU design at the gate level > Chuck McManis wrote: > > > The above statement is completely untrue. You can get 10 - 100x the "ttl" > > equivalent logic in a 44 pin PLCC. Check out the XC9572 some time, > > depending on your logic you can replace a whole bunch of TTL and they are > > $5.53 each from Digikey, quantity 1. Or go to 84 pin PLCC, still allows you > > to do through hole work for $7.00 and get 50% more gates. > > That is true but random logic is hard to judge how much will fit in a > FPGA. Normal glue logic often fits well as well as simple I/O devices > like a printer port. It is random state logic, Alu's and memory devices > that don't fit well and that is often what is needed. > The random logic fits better in the CPLDs than in FPGA's, since the routing doesn't get as tangled as the device fills up. I don't like the way the XILINX software deals with CPLD's as opposed to FPGA's, though. It's bad there, but the ALTERA software has really given me cause to wonder. A part of the problem is that the software doesn't try to squeeze all it can out of the available resources. Consequently, any effort at approaching full utilization of available resources has to be done by hand, which is very time-consuming therefore costly. Which sorts of logic are more difficult to implement depends to large extent on the device architecture. One immediately has to draw a distinction between the CPLD and the FPGA. The former makes it easy to use the available resources, though not necessarily "fully" utilize them, while the FPGA simply gives you more, though it's unlikely you'll approach the level of utilization of possible with a CPLD. The CPLD has more multiplexing/gating/routing resources per register than the FPGA, and its timing is generally quite deterministic, while the FPGA has vastly more register resources, but makes you pay for using them by consuming lots of routing resources and CLB's for the gating, say, in a big synchronous counter. That also reduces the overall performance of the counter, since the routing delays are cumulative. What's more, the timing is impacted by when the routing software encounters a given construct, hence, a counter that runs easily at 120 MHz in one design may turn out to run no faster than 80 in another, all that in a device that is advertised suitable for 250 MHz operation. > > Note you can still find the old TTL but you pay a arm and a leg for > them. > A 74LS181 that was $1 in Jameco is now $4 here. A 74LS382 is $8.00. > If you need old replacement parts this looks to be the spot. > http://www.rocelec.com/ > > Note the 74182 is the carry lookahead. > Makes for a mighty thin RACK mount.:) > I've got a 256Kx16 DRAM chip lying on the desk right now. They're not that uncommon, but they're not a popular chip in the PC market any longer, since the evolution of AGP. They were common on VLB and PCI SVGA cards. That would have made the jaws drop back in the days when folks actually used PDP11/70's. > From edick at idcomm.com Sat Nov 3 13:53:03 2001 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:26 2005 Subject: CPU design at the gate level References: Message-ID: <006c01c164a1$267ca620$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> Is there an RS outlet that differs from the "corner Radio Shack" store in the UK? It happens that there's a "RadioShack.com" store, coincidentally here in Denver, and it seems to operate quite differently from the "corner Radio Shack." They sell parts that seem to work properly, aren't blister-packed, and they seem, most of the time, to have matching connector halves, pins and receptacles, as well as the tools and materials needed to use them. It's really quite a shop, though severely tainted by not only the Radio Shack name, but the product lines as well. Whenever you need a PIC component, though, you can just go in and hand them the money for it, as they've got 'em for the most part. They also do an internet business and ship their parts, which means you, Tony, can order from them, I do believe. Their search engine leaves a little to be desired, however, so be prepared to spend a little time with it until you find the "tricks" needed to get it to go past the usual Radio Shack problem that the search engine doesn't know that you might be able to use a 74F381 when you're searching for a 74AS381. You get the picture ... Dick ----- Original Message ----- From: "Tony Duell" To: Sent: Saturday, November 03, 2001 11:44 AM Subject: Re: CPU design at the gate level > > Good thing too as most of the surplus parts were off spec... I was burned > > a few times back when. > > THere used to be a company in the UK who bought up rejected ICs., tested > them, and sold them at seemingly low prices to hobbyists. There were only > 2 problems > > 1) They would sell things like '7400, 75% good'. Meaning one defective > gate in the package. They didn't tell you which one. And the 'good' gates > tended to fail pretty quickly as well. > > 2) Their tester was based on telephone relays, uniselectors, and so on. > It ran at 1Hz, and that's being generous. Many of their 'tested, 100% > good' ICs failed at more sensible speeds. > > I had a lot of problems with their devices. When I started buying > full-price TTL from RS components, etc, then I started having circuits > that worked first time... > > > -tony > > From edick at idcomm.com Sat Nov 3 13:55:57 2001 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:26 2005 Subject: Cable and connector source References: Message-ID: <007201c164a1$8e560980$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> There are a couple of 6-pin connectors that look like the mini-DIN used by the PS/2 mouse that won't fit. However, Radio Shack sells a PS/2-type of connector in a blister pack for about $1.50. I used one when replacing the power connector on a portable JAZ drive. Frankly, I was both pleased and amazed that they had the things. Dick ----- Original Message ----- From: "Don McClure" To: Sent: Saturday, November 03, 2001 11:04 AM Subject: RE: Cable and connector source > on 11/2/01 1:45 PM, classiccmp-digest at > owner-classiccmp-digest@classiccmp.org wrote: > > > 6-pin mini-DIN is what a PS/2 mouse uses. > > > > For "raw" parts how about http://www.jameco.com/ ? > > > > - -Philip > > > Yes, PS/2 keyboard/mouse uses the same mini-DIN, but the wiring is > completely different. > > Thanks for the URL... > > Don McClure > Bel Air, MD > > > From mikeford at socal.rr.com Sat Nov 3 13:17:05 2001 From: mikeford at socal.rr.com (Mike Ford) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:26 2005 Subject: OT: Question for American Subscribers... In-Reply-To: References: <9011A52E011ED311B4280004AC1BA615014671DF@yalepress3.unipress.yale.edu> Message-ID: >> Why would a large computer retailer (CompUSA) stop selling gift >> certificates at this time of year? Might CompUSA be going titsup.com? > >Perhaps it was the recent court decision that found that gift >certificates are good until used and may be redeemed for cash. I just this week used a expired Amazon.com certificate I got a year or so ago for some survey, and it was supposed to expire in 30 days. California law says nyet on expiring. OTOH it could be fraud. I know I've seen a few of the Compusa tech support cards at swapmeets (sold in increments of minutes, not actual help). From mikeford at socal.rr.com Sat Nov 3 13:40:10 2001 From: mikeford at socal.rr.com (Mike Ford) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:26 2005 Subject: Two bits on prices In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20011030160251.027b6110@mcmanis.com> References: <3BDE3A1F.E1DE6DC@mail.verizon.net> Message-ID: Prices things sell for aren't simple. The general formula is something like; Item sold = TRUE, if asking price (bell curve function of perceived value, number of end users offered to). OR if Asking Price (bell curve function of perceived value, number of resellers offered to). What this means is that if I price an item at the "average" price, then offering it to a few end users should result in a sale, but only if the price is much lower would it sell with just a few resellers. The higher the price and very rapidly the number of people you need to offer the item to goes very high. Obviously real life is much more complicated, with supply and demand etc., but the point is many things sell at really high prices because the seller either offers it to a LOT of people, or finds people who have a much higher percieved value for the item. Moving an item from a blue tarp at a swapmeet to a showcase in a retail store does wonders for both. From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat Nov 3 14:13:42 2001 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:26 2005 Subject: CPU design at the gate level In-Reply-To: <006c01c164a1$267ca620$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> from "Richard Erlacher" at Nov 3, 1 12:53:03 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1644 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20011103/d5dfd801/attachment.ksh From tony.eros at machm.org Sat Nov 3 14:18:07 2001 From: tony.eros at machm.org (Tony Eros) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:26 2005 Subject: Looking for DEC laptop power supplies In-Reply-To: <007201c164a1$8e560980$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> References: Message-ID: <5.0.2.1.0.20011103151604.02425d50@mail.njd.concentric.com> Does anyone have some extra power supplies for the DEC Hinote VP TS31D or VP700? I need an AC adapter for a VP700 and AC adapters for two VP TS31D systems. I'm looking on eOverPay, but not much luck so far. -- Tony From rcini at optonline.net Sat Nov 3 14:23:04 2001 From: rcini at optonline.net (Richard A. Cini, Jr.) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:26 2005 Subject: OT: Determining TCP port ownership Message-ID: Hello, all: I'm having a bit of a time with SNMP on my Windows NT box. I'm running the Compaq management agents which use ports 161 and 162. But, when the SNMP service starts, it complains that another program is grabbing the port. Using "netstat -an" tells me that something is grabbing the ports using both TCP and UDP. The TCP address shown is 0.0.0.0. I have no other obvious programs running that would be an SNMP server. Is there a utility that can tell me which executable is grabbing a given port? Rich Rich Cini Collector of classic computers Build Master for the Altair32 Emulation Project Web site: http://highgate.comm.sfu.ca/~rcini/classiccmp/ /************************************************************/ From technos at nerdland.org Sat Nov 3 15:12:57 2001 From: technos at nerdland.org (Jim) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:26 2005 Subject: DEC transformers, what are they to? Message-ID: <01C16482.678610D0.technos@nerdland.org> Tony's question jogged my memory I have a half dozen beige wall-warts Digital model H70822-AA. I beleive they came from some DEC networking equipment. Anyone want em? Jim From tarsi at binhost.com Sat Nov 3 15:34:00 2001 From: tarsi at binhost.com (Tarsi) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:26 2005 Subject: AT&T 6300 Keyboard Controller Message-ID: <01110315340004.07115@simon> Greetings, all! System in Question: AT&T 6300 I have two of these systems and was going through them, taking the best parts of the one and putting them in the other to build out a good machine. I happened upon a difference between the two that I can't figure out what I've stumbled upon. The keyboard controller for the 6300 is either an 8041 or 8741 chip, as defined by the service manual. The one machine has an 8041A chip, so that's normal. The other machine doesn't have a chip at all. Instead, it has a piggyback card in that slot where the IC is supposed to be. The piggyback card has a chip on it that LOOKS to be a 88414 chip. I'll write below all the relevant numbers on the card. There is a wire that goes from the board around to the topside of the logic board as well. Not sure where it connects, I haven't pulled the logic board completely up yet. Anyone have an idea of what this might be and if so, documentation and/or description of benefits? Thanks for your help! Tarsi 210 List of Relevant Numbers: - On the main chip, it has 88414 plus a adhesive tag that someone had written on it "PDBD". - The board itself is stamped: 491230 Z MI293 NA 6/84 (the last the date, I presume) Also on the board is: MI293 COD.49199P-E-E4 - Yet another chip has the number: TMS7000NL-2 -- ---------------------------------------------- Homepage: http://tarsi.binhost.com binHOST.com: http://www.binhost.com Forever Beyond: http://www.foreverbeyond.org ---------------------------------------------- From vance at ikickass.org Sat Nov 3 15:40:29 2001 From: vance at ikickass.org (One Without Reason) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:26 2005 Subject: VT330/VT340 Manual In-Reply-To: <000901c16461$64545be0$6501a8c0@fred> Message-ID: That isn't it. That's how to graphics program in ReGIS. I need to know how to configure my VT340. Peace... Sridhar On Sat, 3 Nov 2001, Fred deBros wrote: > http://vt100.net/docs/vt3xx-gp/contents.html > > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-classiccmp@classiccmp.org > [mailto:owner-classiccmp@classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of One Without Reason > Sent: Saturday, 03 November, 2001 05.18 > To: Classic Computers Mailing List > Subject: VT330/VT340 Manual > > > Anyone know where I might find the manual for a VT330 or VT340 online? > I > am looking for configuration info and factory default settings and other > things of that nature. I would also appreciate it if someone could give > me pointers on my DECserver 700. Thanks a lot. > > Peace... Sridhar > > From MTPro at aol.com Sat Nov 3 15:48:42 2001 From: MTPro at aol.com (MTPro@aol.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:26 2005 Subject: Last Chance - Stan Veit's History of the Personal Computer Book - Blow Out! Message-ID: <16a.3576cda.2915c03a@aol.com> I still have a number of brand new copies I'd like to move out. This is a super deal just for classiccmp subscribers. Please e-mail me! For more info on the book, see this copy I sold at auction: http://cgi.ebay.com/aw-cgi/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=1289515294 $4 Shipped! Best, David David Greelish Classic Computing www.classiccomputing.com "classiccomputing" on eBay From Antonio.Carlini at riverstonenet.com Sat Nov 3 15:46:57 2001 From: Antonio.Carlini at riverstonenet.com (Carlini, Antonio) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:26 2005 Subject: VT330/VT340 Manual Message-ID: <3820E2042B6ED5118DC200D0B78EDC470661F4@exc-reo1> >things of that nature. I would also appreciate it if someone could give >me pointers on my DECserver 700. Thanks a lot. You can find the DS700 manuals online at www.dnpg.com. Antonio From rhblakeman at kih.net Sat Nov 3 15:57:29 2001 From: rhblakeman at kih.net (Russ Blakeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:26 2005 Subject: Need a source and info on a memory chip In-Reply-To: <006001c1649d$3af71940$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> Message-ID: Plain text IS turned ON with HTML OFF, it's my default. It may be this stupid Outlook adding things anyway or somewhere through the mail handling some header is added. As before I apologize for the inconvenience but it's hard to tell if a message goes with HTML or not. I've sent a plain to my own email address and it came back plain so it's likely not Outlook or my ISP's mail server. After I wrote that I also did a search on Google and came up with the same but $25 each is a little high for a test. I have an inquiry in through USbid with a US source and once I get it back I may buy enought to do all 5 of my Handsprings and for people I know, then if they work out just buy a lot of 50 and undercut the present reworkers to make a few Xmas bucks. The response was very much appreciated and should I come up with a viable/inexpensive source I'll post a note for anyone interested. -> -----Original Message----- -> From: owner-classiccmp@classiccmp.org -> [mailto:owner-classiccmp@classiccmp.org]On Behalf Of Richard Erlacher -> Sent: Saturday, November 03, 2001 1:25 PM -> To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org -> Subject: Re: Need a source and info on a memory chip -> -> -> If you run a GOOGLE search on GM71VS65163CLT5, which I just did, -> you'll be -> offered several sources, not all English-speaking, but it looks -> to me as though -> your needs can be met that way. -> -> I had to turn off HTML in your message, by the way, and, for the -> convenience of -> the others on this list, I'd recommend that you make plain-text -> your default -> setting. -> -> Dick -> +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ -> ----- Original Message ----- -> From: Russ Blakeman -> To: Classic computers message group -> Sent: Saturday, November 03, 2001 6:24 AM -> Subject: Need a source and info on a memory chip -> -> -> This is off topic but I know that someone in this list will have -> the answer. -> What I need is a surface mount memory chip for a PDA 16mb -> upgrade of internal -> memory. The chip in it is an 8 and I've seen a unit with a -> piggybacked chip on -> it with a jumper run from the Motorola Dragonball cpu (I -> basically drew out the -> mod on a Wendy's napkin it's that simple). -> -> Here's what's on the face of the present 8mb chip (the piggy -> back will be the -> same or suitable sub): -> -> ---------------------------- -> HYUNDAI -> GM71VS65163CLT5 -> 0040 AG2 KOREA -> ---------------------------- -> -> It's a surface mount chip that is a 50 pin DIP package (2 rows -> of 25 pins). I'll -> need one initially and end up needing around 25 so I might as -> well get all 25 at -> one time. Does anyone know where I can get a specs and/or pinout -> of this and a -> good source for purchase of small or large quantity? I want the -> pinouts/specs -> for curiousity and the source obviously for purchase rreasons. -> Any help is -> greatly appreciated. -> -> From mhstein at usa.net Sat Nov 3 15:58:32 2001 From: mhstein at usa.net (M H Stein) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:26 2005 Subject: EISA - was VLB SCSI? Message-ID: <01C16488.F8F944A0@mse-d03> Since I don't have any EISA experience other than this, maybe I'm missing something really fundamental... I assumed everything was handled by the configuration & diagnostic utility; is there something else I should be doing? How else can I get at the config info? mike ---------Original Message------------ Date: 3 Nov 2001 5:59:47 +0100 From: "Iggy Drougge" Subject: Re: EISA - was VLB SCSI? Since I've been reinitialising and updating my Proliant this night, I have some fresh knowledge. Could it be that you've left some pieces of the config from when you still had the modem on the config partition? Any change in an EISA system has to be handled in the config partition. It's a real pain if you're experimenting together a system. From cmcmanis at mcmanis.com Sat Nov 3 16:07:41 2001 From: cmcmanis at mcmanis.com (Chuck McManis) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:26 2005 Subject: VT330/VT340 Manual In-Reply-To: <3820E2042B6ED5118DC200D0B78EDC470661F4@exc-reo1> Message-ID: <5.0.0.25.2.20011103140632.02304040@209.185.79.193> At 01:46 PM 11/3/01 -0800, Antonio wrote: > You can find the DS700 manuals > online at www.dnpg.com. Perhaps you can :-) I ran across them once in all my link chasing and haven't found them again. I did find the software manual (Windows, VMS, etc) but not the hardware manual. --Chuck From edick at idcomm.com Sat Nov 3 16:15:45 2001 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:26 2005 Subject: Need a source and info on a memory chip References: Message-ID: <000501c164b5$15b62000$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> It's not an inconvenience for me but it is a PITA that OE or Outlook seem to revert to HTML every chance they get. SOme folks get downright cranky when you send them RTF-formatted messages, though. I had no idea they wanted so much for these. What, exactly, are they? Have you tried looking in normal distribution? Have you tried www.freetradezone.com? You may do better there. Dick ----- Original Message ----- From: "Russ Blakeman" To: Sent: Saturday, November 03, 2001 2:57 PM Subject: RE: Need a source and info on a memory chip > Plain text IS turned ON with HTML OFF, it's my default. It may be this > stupid Outlook adding things anyway or somewhere through the mail handling > some header is added. As before I apologize for the inconvenience but it's > hard to tell if a message goes with HTML or not. I've sent a plain to my own > email address and it came back plain so it's likely not Outlook or my ISP's > mail server. > > After I wrote that I also did a search on Google and came up with the same > but $25 each is a little high for a test. I have an inquiry in through USbid > with a US source and once I get it back I may buy enought to do all 5 of my > Handsprings and for people I know, then if they work out just buy a lot of > 50 and undercut the present reworkers to make a few Xmas bucks. > > The response was very much appreciated and should I come up with a > viable/inexpensive source I'll post a note for anyone interested. > > -> -----Original Message----- > -> From: owner-classiccmp@classiccmp.org > -> [mailto:owner-classiccmp@classiccmp.org]On Behalf Of Richard Erlacher > -> Sent: Saturday, November 03, 2001 1:25 PM > -> To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org > -> Subject: Re: Need a source and info on a memory chip > -> > -> > -> If you run a GOOGLE search on GM71VS65163CLT5, which I just did, > -> you'll be > -> offered several sources, not all English-speaking, but it looks > -> to me as though > -> your needs can be met that way. > -> > -> I had to turn off HTML in your message, by the way, and, for the > -> convenience of > -> the others on this list, I'd recommend that you make plain-text > -> your default > -> setting. > -> > -> Dick > -> +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ > -> ----- Original Message ----- > -> From: Russ Blakeman > -> To: Classic computers message group > -> Sent: Saturday, November 03, 2001 6:24 AM > -> Subject: Need a source and info on a memory chip > -> > -> > -> This is off topic but I know that someone in this list will have > -> the answer. > -> What I need is a surface mount memory chip for a PDA 16mb > -> upgrade of internal > -> memory. The chip in it is an 8 and I've seen a unit with a > -> piggybacked chip on > -> it with a jumper run from the Motorola Dragonball cpu (I > -> basically drew out the > -> mod on a Wendy's napkin it's that simple). > -> > -> Here's what's on the face of the present 8mb chip (the piggy > -> back will be the > -> same or suitable sub): > -> > -> ---------------------------- > -> HYUNDAI > -> GM71VS65163CLT5 > -> 0040 AG2 KOREA > -> ---------------------------- > -> > -> It's a surface mount chip that is a 50 pin DIP package (2 rows > -> of 25 pins). I'll > -> need one initially and end up needing around 25 so I might as > -> well get all 25 at > -> one time. Does anyone know where I can get a specs and/or pinout > -> of this and a > -> good source for purchase of small or large quantity? I want the > -> pinouts/specs > -> for curiousity and the source obviously for purchase rreasons. > -> Any help is > -> greatly appreciated. > -> > -> > > From tarsi at binhost.com Sat Nov 3 16:17:07 2001 From: tarsi at binhost.com (Tarsi) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:26 2005 Subject: AT&T 6300 SOTA Cable? Message-ID: <01110316170706.07115@simon> Would anyone out there have the 24" cable for the i386 SOTA card for the 6300? I have the 14" cables but they're not long enough and aren't shaped right to use in the 6300. Thanks! Tarsi 210 -- ---------------------------------------------- Homepage: http://tarsi.binhost.com binHOST.com: http://www.binhost.com Forever Beyond: http://www.foreverbeyond.org ---------------------------------------------- From dittman at dittman.net Sat Nov 3 16:46:18 2001 From: dittman at dittman.net (Eric Dittman) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:26 2005 Subject: VT330/VT340 Manual In-Reply-To: <5.0.0.25.2.20011103140632.02304040@209.185.79.193> from "Chuck McManis" at Nov 03, 2001 02:07:41 PM Message-ID: <200111032246.fA3MkIS04250@narnia.int.dittman.net> > At 01:46 PM 11/3/01 -0800, Antonio wrote: > > You can find the DS700 manuals > > online at www.dnpg.com. > > Perhaps you can :-) I ran across them once in all my link chasing and > haven't found them again. I did find the software manual (Windows, VMS, > etc) but not the hardware manual. I've got a copy on ftp.dittman.net/pub -- Eric Dittman dittman@dittman.net Check out the DEC Enthusiasts Club at http://www.dittman.net/ From bpope at wordstock.com Sat Nov 3 17:06:24 2001 From: bpope at wordstock.com (Bryan Pope) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:26 2005 Subject: OT: Determining TCP port ownership In-Reply-To: from "Richard A. Cini, Jr." at Nov 3, 01 03:23:04 pm Message-ID: <200111032306.SAA03638@wordstock.com> > > Hello, all: > > I'm having a bit of a time with SNMP on my Windows NT box. I'm running the > Compaq management agents which use ports 161 and 162. But, when the SNMP > service starts, it complains that another program is grabbing the port. > Using "netstat -an" tells me that something is grabbing the ports using both > TCP and UDP. The TCP address shown is 0.0.0.0. > > I have no other obvious programs running that would be an SNMP server. Is > there a utility that can tell me which executable is grabbing a given port? > I asked a friend and he said to run nmap to do a port scan of your server. It is supposed to tell you which ports are open and the names of the programs running on said port. Hope this helps, Bryan Pope From Antonio.Carlini at riverstonenet.com Sat Nov 3 17:11:32 2001 From: Antonio.Carlini at riverstonenet.com (Carlini, Antonio) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:26 2005 Subject: VT330/VT340 Manual Message-ID: <3820E2042B6ED5118DC200D0B78EDC470661F6@exc-reo1> >Perhaps you can :-) I ran across them once in all my link chasing and >haven't found them again. I did find the software manual (Windows, VMS, >etc) but not the hardware manual. You are not the only one who thinks the site is hard to navigate (I just use search and click on the Technical Information link in the top right corner). From an email I sent just a few minutes ago: Start here: http://www.dnpg.com/dr/hubs/servers/ and pick whatever you want. User manuals are here: http://www.dnpg.com/dr/hubs/servers/manuals/ Antonio From Antonio.Carlini at riverstonenet.com Sat Nov 3 17:18:53 2001 From: Antonio.Carlini at riverstonenet.com (Carlini, Antonio) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:26 2005 Subject: One-off vs. One-of (was Re: CPU design at the gate level) Message-ID: <3820E2042B6ED5118DC200D0B78EDC470661F7@exc-reo1> > pete@dunnington.u-net.com wrote: > >I've never heard "one-of" before, only "one off" (and "2 off", "3 off", >etc) to describe a quantity. It's commonly used here, not just in >engineering. Agreed. I first saw it in Practical Electronics (which I started reading in 1977/78 or so). It was often used in the parts lists. It confused me slightly the first time I read it, but it was clear what it meant. I don't know the derivation off-hand but I am surprised that anyone uses "one-of" - it's just harder to say! Antonio From CLeyson at aol.com Sat Nov 3 17:46:02 2001 From: CLeyson at aol.com (CLeyson@aol.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:26 2005 Subject: Am2901 bit-slice Message-ID: <82.12837e44.2915dbba@aol.com> Hi everyone Looking for a source of AMD Am2901 bit slice chips ? Try Dial Electronics at http//www.dialelec.com. They specialise in obsolete parts, have no minimum order charge, you don't need an account and they will also ship worldwide. I've got a busted CPU board to fix so I've got a few 2901s on order. If I can't fix the damn thing I will probably end up building a bit-slice processor just for the fun of it. Any suggestions ? Best Regards Chris Leyson -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20011103/3e3ac3d6/attachment.html From mranalog at home.com Sat Nov 3 17:56:50 2001 From: mranalog at home.com (Doug Coward) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:26 2005 Subject: hard-sector 5 1/4 disk Message-ID: <3BE48442.16029231@home.com> UberTechnoid@home.com wrote: > Get an Atari drive instead. The interface of the C= drives is probably > just as well documented, but the drives were BUTT SLOW. The Atari drives > were factors faster. Commodore 1541 type drive are serial and have a tremendous amount of handshaking to the interface. It's just a matter of writting new interface routines. I've been able to transfer one byte across the interface in about 50 clock cycles (loading a 50K file in 12 to 13 seconds). UberTechnoid@home.com wrote: > I thought they used a 6507 or 6510 processor... The C64 uses a 6510 which is a 6502 with a built in 6 bit I/O port and DMA. The 1541 uses a 6502. UberTechnoid@home.com wrote: > Other machines that used 'smart' floppy drives might be the Adam and > Aquarius. I never saw a drive for the Aquarius, but there was supposed to > be one. The COCO and Ti99 had parallel buss drive interfaces as did the > Apple (sorta). I had a Aquarius disk drive at one time. It used those tiny diskettes that are smaller than the Compact floppies used on the Amstrad. I traded the Aquarius drive to someone in Australia that had a pile of Aquarius disks and no drive. I traded for a stack of Aquarius docs and a board that allows me to use 1541s with my Aquarius. Regards, --Doug ========================================= Doug Coward @ home in Poulsbo, WA Analog Computer Online Museum and History Center http://www.best.com/~dcoward/analog ========================================= From thompson at mail.athenet.net Sat Nov 3 18:38:46 2001 From: thompson at mail.athenet.net (Paul Thompson) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:26 2005 Subject: OT: Determining TCP port ownership In-Reply-To: <200111032306.SAA03638@wordstock.com> Message-ID: On Sat, 3 Nov 2001, Bryan Pope wrote: > > > > Hello, all: > > > > I'm having a bit of a time with SNMP on my Windows NT box. I'm running the > > Compaq management agents which use ports 161 and 162. But, when the SNMP > > service starts, it complains that another program is grabbing the port. > > Using "netstat -an" tells me that something is grabbing the ports using both > > TCP and UDP. The TCP address shown is 0.0.0.0. > > > > I have no other obvious programs running that would be an SNMP server. Is > > there a utility that can tell me which executable is grabbing a given port? > > > > I asked a friend and he said to run nmap to do a port scan of your server. It > is supposed to tell you which ports are open and the names of the programs > running on said port. > > Hope this helps, > > Bryan Pope > NMAP will tell you the name of the service which is supposed to listen on that port but will not tell anything helpful like the specific process on the NT box. It will tell you http on port 80 but not if you're running apache, IIS or purveyor. What you need is a utility like unix's lsof, I have one on my NT machine at work and can find out what it is if still needed. -- From mranalog at home.com Sat Nov 3 18:39:43 2001 From: mranalog at home.com (Doug Coward) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:26 2005 Subject: Missing was Re: OS9 or Flex09 on 8" disk needed Message-ID: <3BE48E4F.55EA100A@home.com> Ben Franchuk wrote: > I thought try this ... > "The Missing 6809 UniFLEX Archive" http://www.rtmx.com/UniFLEX/ > but the webpage is now missing! Does anybody know what happened to it? > This very bad when old information vanishes with out a trace on the web. Too offen I find web pages that I count on turn up missing, so I have started trying out a program called WebZIP. http://www.spidersoft.com/default.asp ----- Start Quote ------- Use WebZIP to download web pages or entire web sites, including images, sounds and other media files to your hard drive, so you can browse them offline. Using the new FAR add-in tool for WebZIP, you can compile your downloaded content to HTML-Help. WebZIP also gives you the option of saving your captured web content into a single compressed Zip file - a great way to archive Web sites, or distribute them to friends and coleagues. WebZIP's powerful Task Editor gives you total control over what and how much of a Web site is downloaded. It lets you specify the file types, depth and scope of retrieval in addition to giving you powerful URL and location filters and allowing you scheduling your download for any time of the day. ------ End Quote -------- And of course it has the option for you to save a web site WITHOUT the banner ads. Regards, --Doug ========================================= Doug Coward @ home in Poulsbo, WA Analog Computer Online Museum and History Center http://www.best.com/~dcoward/analog ========================================= From dpeschel at eskimo.com Sat Nov 3 18:50:18 2001 From: dpeschel at eskimo.com (Derek Peschel) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:26 2005 Subject: Classic Gaming OT and OT / Re: OT: Playstation 2 opinion? In-Reply-To: <1165.704T300T3383993optimus@canit.se>; from optimus@canit.se on Wed, Oct 31, 2001 at 05:38:06AM +0100 References: <20011030162448.B6326@eskimo.eskimo.com> <1165.704T300T3383993optimus@canit.se> Message-ID: <20011103165018.A16540@eskimo.eskimo.com> On Wed, Oct 31, 2001 at 05:38:06AM +0100, Iggy Drougge wrote: > Derek Peschel skrev: > >On Tue, Oct 30, 2001 at 11:21:09PM +0100, Iggy Drougge wrote: > >> OLMasken! Fire! Bilspel! > > >I need some more explanation here... > > BBS games from the nineties. OLMasken is a "worm" game, Fire is like the Game > and Watch game where you have to save people from a burning house. Bilspel is > a marvelous little racing game. I remember another Game and Watch game where you have to catch pancakes as they flip through the air. Obviously Nintendo wasn't above reusing a good idea. > But such novelties aside, I'd rather have bitmapped (or vector =) graphics and > some channels of sound. I know what you mean. Even a memory-mapped text display is much more expressive than a slow serial link. The one good thing about BBS games (or games on timesharing computers) is that you get to play against a large number of other people. -- Derek From cmcmanis at mcmanis.com Sat Nov 3 19:15:56 2001 From: cmcmanis at mcmanis.com (Chuck McManis) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:26 2005 Subject: VT330/VT340 Manual In-Reply-To: <200111032246.fA3MkIS04250@narnia.int.dittman.net> References: <5.0.0.25.2.20011103140632.02304040@209.185.79.193> Message-ID: <5.0.0.25.2.20011103165921.02321e80@209.185.79.193> I'm guessing he wants the one that describes the software but I may be wrong. At 04:46 PM 11/3/01 -0600, you wrote: > > At 01:46 PM 11/3/01 -0800, Antonio wrote: > > > You can find the DS700 manuals > > > online at www.dnpg.com. > > > > Perhaps you can :-) I ran across them once in all my link chasing and > > haven't found them again. I did find the software manual (Windows, VMS, > > etc) but not the hardware manual. > >I've got a copy on ftp.dittman.net/pub >-- >Eric Dittman >dittman@dittman.net >Check out the DEC Enthusiasts Club at http://www.dittman.net/ From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Sat Nov 3 16:25:42 2001 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (Ben Franchuk) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:26 2005 Subject: Missing was Re: OS9 or Flex09 on 8" disk needed References: <3BE48E4F.55EA100A@home.com> Message-ID: <3BE46EE6.F5F086B@jetnet.ab.ca> Doug Coward wrote: > Too offen I find web pages that I count on turn up missing, so I have > started trying out a program called WebZIP. Not with a 28K modem and tiny HD. If this puter was any older it would count as a classic tube system. :) Thinking of a site like 'Tim Shoppa's archive of PDP-10 software ' a autozip would spend days downloading. What is really needed is central web archive for many of the one of kind web sites. This way for what ever reason a site goes down somebody has a copy. > Analog Computer Online Museum and History Center > http://www.best.com/~dcoward/analog > ========================================= Nice site. Ben Franchuk. From cfandt at netsync.net Sat Nov 3 19:21:14 2001 From: cfandt at netsync.net (Christian Fandt) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:26 2005 Subject: UTC Transformer type H-89 In-Reply-To: <20011028054507.IZHH1653.imf04bis.bellsouth.net@thegoodw> Message-ID: <4.1.20011103200257.00c345e0@206.231.8.2> Upon the date 12:18 AM 10/28/01 -0400, Glen Goodwin said something like: >Ran across this on Ebay tonight: > >http://cgi.ebay.com/aw-cgi/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=1649083427 > >This transformer has a 115V primary, and several taps on the secondary >ranging from 5 to 850 volts. What kind of device might require such a wide >range of voltages? Without digging through several boxes up in the library for my 1950's/60's UTC Company catalogs, I will say this is for an early 50's television - a large screen black & white or one of the early color sets. I could check if you'd like me to. I feel it is obvious this is the case based on my considerable experience with early TV's. My assumptions on the secondary lineup is as follows: 5V @ 6A for two 5U4G full wave rectifiers; 6.3V @ 4A for the damper tube heater and the CRT heater (meant to be isolated and held at a higher positive level to prevent heater-to-cathode breakdown because the cathodes would be at maybe +250 volts DC or so), 6.3V @ 8A for the rest of the tube heaters, 850V @ 430MA, 1050V @ 400 MA. for the B+ voltages. Methinks the two high voltage secondaries are a single center tapped winding with a choice of two tapped levels - depending upon the original requirements. This is apparently a replacement transformer meant to fit several different chassis. > >BTW (for those without 'net access) the device sold for USD103.50 and there >were no details as to what this thing was used in. This leads me to >believe that it's a high failure-rate component in a relatively expensive >(and not uncommon) piece of gear. Well, if I had, for example, a 1954 RCA color TV with a bad power transformer and this was a replacement, I think I would fork over that much. Probably not more, but maybe that much. In this example I gave, the RCA CTC-1 chassis was the first color set mass produced in the States in 1954 and this USD103.50 would be worth it to me if I knew I could get a working set. HTH, -Chris -- -- Christian Fandt, Electronic/Electrical Historian Jamestown, NY USA cfandt@netsync.net Member of Antique Wireless Association URL: http://www.antiquewireless.org/ From optimus at canit.se Sat Nov 3 17:52:23 2001 From: optimus at canit.se (Iggy Drougge) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:27 2005 Subject: EISA - was VLB SCSI? In-Reply-To: <01C16488.F8F944A0@mse-d03> Message-ID: <1232.708T1150T525111optimus@canit.se> M H Stein skrev: Please don't reply on top of quoted messages and expect a follow-up. >Since I don't have any EISA experience other than this, maybe I'm >missing something really fundamental... >I assumed everything was handled by the configuration & diagnostic >utility; is there something else I should be doing? How else can I get >at the config info? The config utility is really like a really big BIOS. When you add or remove a card, the config utility will probably notice that and be activated on boot- up. This particular config program doesn't seem that smart, so you'll probably have to enter it yourself and clean things up. How this is done depends on your machine. On my Prosignia it's by F10 when the screen is cleared with a binking cursor at the upper left corner. -- En ligne avec Thor 2.6a. "LART is an acronym for Luser Attitude Readjustment Tool, and is generally a piece of heavy hard material such as a cricket or baseball bat, hunk of pipe, or 2x4 for the fine tuning of a luser's atitude. This is a noun that can be used as a verb. If I say I lart someone, I mean that I am performing delicate tuning procedures upon that persons head utilizing a LART. An ICBM would be considered an agressive LART." From optimus at canit.se Sat Nov 3 18:28:23 2001 From: optimus at canit.se (Iggy Drougge) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:27 2005 Subject: hard-sector 5 1/4 disk In-Reply-To: <3BE34575.25DDA287@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <841.708T1150T884571optimus@canit.se> Ben Franchuk skrev: >Iggy Drougge wrote: >> >> Ben Franchuk skrev: >> I'm not sure what you're referring to here. There are external drives for >> just about every computer in existence. > >I was thinking of more "Yes we have it but it really is a hardware hack! >- take no notice of the dead bugs inside " external drives compared to >the floppy is in that box over there. As I said, it's easier to mention the computers which don't have external drives. PCs have them. Amigas have them. Ataris have them. Macs have them. Well, I suppose that the only external floppies formy VAXstation and DECstations would be SCSI ones, but that's probably the only computer I've got which doesn't have them. -- En ligne avec Thor 2.6a. Goto: A programming tool that exists to allow structured programmers to complain about unstructured programmers. From h.wolter at sympatico.ca Sat Nov 3 19:58:53 2001 From: h.wolter at sympatico.ca (Heinz Wolter) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:27 2005 Subject: Last Chance - Stan Veit's History of the Personal Computer Book - Blow Out! References: <16a.3576cda.2915c03a@aol.com> Message-ID: <003b01c164d4$41d7f180$3a92a8c0@MAGGIE> I'd like one thank. please tell what the postage amt and total need to be to ship to Canada (ontario). I can still pay by paypal? regards, heinz ----- Original Message ----- From: To: Sent: Saturday, November 03, 2001 4:48 PM Subject: Last Chance - Stan Veit's History of the Personal Computer Book - Blow Out! > I still have a number of brand new copies I'd like to move out. This is a > super deal just for classiccmp subscribers. Please e-mail me! For more info > on the book, see this copy I sold at auction: > > http://cgi.ebay.com/aw-cgi/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=1289515294 > > $4 Shipped! > > Best, David > > David Greelish > Classic Computing > www.classiccomputing.com > "classiccomputing" on eBay > From allain at panix.com Sat Nov 3 20:39:09 2001 From: allain at panix.com (John Allain) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:27 2005 Subject: VT330/VT340 Manual References: Message-ID: <004601c164d9$e205db40$8a0101ac@ibm23xhr06> > That isn't it. That's how to graphics program in ReGIS. > I need to know how to configure my VT340. FWIW, I would like to thank the sender.... Nice site! BTW, there is a lot of cross compatibility between the models, I would be very surprised if most vt320 config (http://vt100.net/docs/vt320-uu/chapter4.html) wouldn't work with the 340, especially conceptually. Anything in particular that's difficult? John A. Ever configure a VT100? No menus! From optimus at canit.se Sat Nov 3 20:14:12 2001 From: optimus at canit.se (Iggy Drougge) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:27 2005 Subject: EISA - was VLB SCSI? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <288.708T600T1943857optimus@canit.se> One Without Reason skrev: >Ever seen VLB/Microchannel? Fun fun fun. Were there any cards for such a rather esoteric combination? -- En ligne avec Thor 2.6a. G? med i SUGA, Swedish Usergroup of Amiga! WWW: http://swedish.usergroup.amiga.tm/ BBS: 08-6582572, telnet://sua.ath.cx:42512 From optimus at canit.se Sat Nov 3 20:15:05 2001 From: optimus at canit.se (Iggy Drougge) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:27 2005 Subject: EISA - was VLB SCSI? In-Reply-To: <3BE3B34B.EB235811@internet1.net> Message-ID: <465.708T250T1954215optimus@canit.se> Chad Fernandez skrev: >On what? I've never heard of that combination. Only Microchannel and >PCI or EISA in a few of the almost PS/2, but not quite the next thing, >IBM servers. I believe that certain third-party replacement planars had MCA+VLB. -- En ligne avec Thor 2.6a. Richard M Stallman, RMS. Grundare av GNU. Aktiv m?nniskohatare. Kommunist. Smiskar folk som kallar "operativsystemet GNU/Linux" f?r "Linux". ?ter barn. -- Daniel Larsson, Fabbes BBS From vance at ikickass.org Sat Nov 3 21:12:16 2001 From: vance at ikickass.org (One Without Reason) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:27 2005 Subject: EISA - was VLB SCSI? In-Reply-To: <288.708T600T1943857optimus@canit.se> Message-ID: SGI SolidCAD MCA/VLB is the card I have here. Peace... Sridhar On 4 Nov 2001, Iggy Drougge wrote: > One Without Reason skrev: > > >Ever seen VLB/Microchannel? Fun fun fun. > > Were there any cards for such a rather esoteric combination? > > -- > En ligne avec Thor 2.6a. > > Gå med i SUGA, Swedish Usergroup of Amiga! > WWW: http://swedish.usergroup.amiga.tm/ > BBS: 08-6582572, telnet://sua.ath.cx:42512 > > From spectre at stockholm.ptloma.edu Sat Nov 3 21:29:53 2001 From: spectre at stockholm.ptloma.edu (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:27 2005 Subject: hard-sector 5 1/4 disk In-Reply-To: <3BE48442.16029231@home.com> from Doug Coward at "Nov 3, 1 03:56:50 pm" Message-ID: <200111040329.TAA10522@stockholm.ptloma.edu> > > Get an Atari drive instead. The interface of the C= drives is probably > > just as well documented, but the drives were BUTT SLOW. The Atari drives > > were factors faster. > > Commodore 1541 type drive are serial and have a tremendous > amount of handshaking to the interface. It's just a matter > of writting new interface routines. I've been able to transfer > one byte across the interface in about 50 clock cycles (loading > a 50K file in 12 to 13 seconds). And it's possible to do better -- look at stuff like DolphinDOS. Even a simple dual-bit method like Epyx FastLoad (where the ATN line [IIRC] is used as a second data line) achieves at least 5x improvement. The hardware is sound, the software sucked. -- ----------------------------- personal page: http://www.armory.com/~spectre/ -- Cameron Kaiser, Point Loma Nazarene University * ckaiser@stockholm.ptloma.edu -- All I ask is a chance to prove money can't make me happy. ------------------ From rhblakeman at kih.net Sat Nov 3 21:42:15 2001 From: rhblakeman at kih.net (Russ Blakeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:27 2005 Subject: Need a source and info on a memory chip In-Reply-To: <000501c164b5$15b62000$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> Message-ID: They're 8mb dram for handhelds and I am specifically looking for them to so a piggyback upgrade from 8mb on board to 16 on my Handsprung Prism color PDAs (I have 8 between me, the wife, kids and my brother - got them half price when I worked at the rebuild facility). The same place that has them at $25 each also does the mod for $150 which I think is a little high for the average person. I know that both the $25 times 8 to mod all of these is high enough let alone sending in 8 at $150 each. I'll try the link you mentioned- thanks. See if this message has HTML - I think it strips all the HTML except when links are included. -> -----Original Message----- From mikeford at socal.rr.com Sat Nov 3 21:27:47 2001 From: mikeford at socal.rr.com (Mike Ford) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:27 2005 Subject: AT&T 6300 SOTA Cable? In-Reply-To: <01110316170706.07115@simon> Message-ID: >Would anyone out there have the 24" cable for the i386 SOTA card for the >6300? I have the 14" cables but they're not long enough and aren't shaped >right to use in the 6300. I have a few AT&T machines, what "sorta" cable is a SOTA? From hansp at aconit.org Sat Nov 3 22:29:40 2001 From: hansp at aconit.org (Hans B Pufal) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:27 2005 Subject: Picture books of old computers References: <20011103102815.M83721-100000@lepton.subatomix.com> Message-ID: <3BE4C434.3090506@aconit.org> Jeffrey S. Sharp wrote: > On Sat, 3 Nov 2001, Hans B Pufal wrote: >>[T]hey continue to bill me for the non-service they are providing! > I hope you don't continue to pay them... Interliant billed my my credit card for the first three months and I had to recover via the bank. Since I cancelled my cc details with them they continue to harrass me with bills and threats of "disconnection" while ignoring all requests to explain what they are billing for or for them to stop. -- HBP From dittman at dittman.net Sat Nov 3 22:45:14 2001 From: dittman at dittman.net (Eric Dittman) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:27 2005 Subject: RD54 and RT-11 5.4D In-Reply-To: <3BDC0C64.D041D805@idirect.com> from "Jerome Fine" at Oct 28, 2001 08:47:16 AM Message-ID: <200111040445.fA44jE904897@narnia.int.dittman.net> Okay, I'm back from a DR exercise and have started trying to get this PDP-11/73 working with RT-11. I have a copy of the XXDP formatter now, and trying to format the hard drive gives this error: Unit Cylinders Drive Name 0 1225 RD54 1 RX50 Diskette (UNFORMATABLE) 2 RX50 Diskette (UNFORMATABLE) MSCP Controller Model: 19 Microcode Version: 1 ZRQC SYS FTL ERR 00007 ON UNIT 00 TST 001 SUB 000 PC: 105742 Controller has reported a fatal error in the FORMAT program. Status: FCT write error (check write protect switch) Drive 0 was not formatted successfully. ZRQC EOP 1 1 TOTAL ERRS Since this drive worked fine under VMS before I started the conversion, I am starting to think there is a jumper on either the RQDX3 or the RD54 that has to be changed to use the drive under RT-11, since the write protect switch is NOT enabled (I even toggled it to make sure). -- Eric Dittman dittman@dittman.net Check out the DEC Enthusiasts Club at http://www.dittman.net/ From optimus at canit.se Sat Nov 3 20:56:07 2001 From: optimus at canit.se (Iggy Drougge) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:27 2005 Subject: Missing was Re: OS9 or Flex09 on 8" disk needed In-Reply-To: <3BE48E4F.55EA100A@home.com> Message-ID: <691.708T350T2364195optimus@canit.se> Doug Coward skrev: > Ben Franchuk wrote: >> I thought try this ... >> "The Missing 6809 UniFLEX Archive" http://www.rtmx.com/UniFLEX/ >> but the webpage is now missing! Does anybody know what happened to it? >> This very bad when old information vanishes with out a trace on the web. > Too offen I find web pages that I count on turn up missing, so I have >started trying out a program called WebZIP. > http://www.spidersoft.com/default.asp I tend to use wget. Runs on everything. The only problem is, it's a GNU program, and that's a big problem. -- En ligne avec Thor 2.6a. Vi m?ste vara r?dda om varandra - det ?r det enda reciproka pronomen vi har. From vance at ikickass.org Sun Nov 4 01:02:32 2001 From: vance at ikickass.org (One Without Reason) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:27 2005 Subject: VT330/VT340 Manual In-Reply-To: <004601c164d9$e205db40$8a0101ac@ibm23xhr06> Message-ID: Well, conceptually, I would bet that most serial terminals with a menu-driven setup system would have similar settings. That's a given. I was just looking for an exact command reference. There are a couple of things that are different between the 320 and the 330/340. One that comes to mind is the CR/CRLF operation. Flow control... things like that. Peace... Sridhar On Sat, 3 Nov 2001, John Allain wrote: > > That isn't it. That's how to graphics program in ReGIS. > > I need to know how to configure my VT340. > > FWIW, I would like to thank the sender.... Nice site! > BTW, there is a lot of cross compatibility between the > models, I would be very surprised if most vt320 config > (http://vt100.net/docs/vt320-uu/chapter4.html) > wouldn't work with the 340, especially conceptually. > Anything in particular that's difficult? > > John A. > Ever configure a VT100? No menus! > > > > From dittman at dittman.net Sun Nov 4 01:12:56 2001 From: dittman at dittman.net (Eric Dittman) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:27 2005 Subject: RD54 and RT-11 5.4D Message-ID: <200111040712.fA47Cuf05010@narnia.int.dittman.net> > Okay, I'm back from a DR exercise and have started trying to get > this PDP-11/73 working with RT-11. I have a copy of the XXDP > formatter now, and trying to format the hard drive gives this > error: > > Unit Cylinders Drive Name > 0 1225 RD54 > 1 RX50 Diskette (UNFORMATABLE) > 2 RX50 Diskette (UNFORMATABLE) > > > MSCP Controller Model: 19 > Microcode Version: 1 > > ZRQC SYS FTL ERR 00007 ON UNIT 00 TST 001 SUB 000 PC: 105742 > Controller has reported a fatal error in the FORMAT program. > Status: FCT write error (check write protect switch) > > Drive 0 was not formatted successfully. > > ZRQC EOP 1 > 1 TOTAL ERRS > > > Since this drive worked fine under VMS before I started the > conversion, I am starting to think there is a jumper on either > the RQDX3 or the RD54 that has to be changed to use the drive > under RT-11, since the write protect switch is NOT enabled (I > even toggled it to make sure). Okay, I've tried different disks, RQDX3 controllers, and disk cables, and nothing seems to work. I even took an RD52 out of my Pro-380 that I know works and tried to use the formatter and it gives the same error. The WP switch is definitely not pressed, and when I press it I do get a light. I've downloaded the RQDX3 manual and checked the jumpers. -- Eric Dittman dittman@dittman.net Check out the DEC Enthusiasts Club at http://www.dittman.net/ From oliv555 at arrl.net Sun Nov 4 01:39:43 2001 From: oliv555 at arrl.net (no) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:27 2005 Subject: RD54 and RT-11 5.4D References: <200111040445.fA44jE904897@narnia.int.dittman.net> Message-ID: <3BE4F0BF.C7DFE937@arrl.net> Eric Dittman wrote: > > Okay, I'm back from a DR exercise and have started trying to get > this PDP-11/73 working with RT-11. I have a copy of the XXDP > formatter now, and trying to format the hard drive gives this > error: > > Unit Cylinders Drive Name > 0 1225 RD54 > 1 RX50 Diskette (UNFORMATABLE) > 2 RX50 Diskette (UNFORMATABLE) > > MSCP Controller Model: 19 > Microcode Version: 1 > > ZRQC SYS FTL ERR 00007 ON UNIT 00 TST 001 SUB 000 PC: 105742 > Controller has reported a fatal error in the FORMAT program. > Status: FCT write error (check write protect switch) > > Drive 0 was not formatted successfully. > > ZRQC EOP 1 > 1 TOTAL ERRS > > Since this drive worked fine under VMS before I started the > conversion, I am starting to think there is a jumper on either > the RQDX3 or the RD54 that has to be changed to use the drive > under RT-11, since the write protect switch is NOT enabled (I > even toggled it to make sure). > -- > Eric Dittman > dittman@dittman.net > Check out the DEC Enthusiasts Club at http://www.dittman.net/ Found this in an addendum i had stashed away: /Jumper W23 on the RQDX3 must be on pins 1 and 2 when used with rd54s. If not disk corruption can result/ -nick From dittman at dittman.net Sun Nov 4 02:34:26 2001 From: dittman at dittman.net (Eric Dittman) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:27 2005 Subject: RD54 and RT-11 5.4D In-Reply-To: <3BE4F0BF.C7DFE937@arrl.net> from "no" at Nov 04, 2001 01:39:43 AM Message-ID: <200111040834.fA48YQb05065@narnia.int.dittman.net> > Found this in an addendum i had stashed away: /Jumper W23 on > the RQDX3 must be on pins 1 and 2 when used with rd54s. If not > disk corruption can result/ I've got that addendum, too. W23 is set. Also, the format still won't go when I try an RD52. -- Eric Dittman dittman@dittman.net Check out the DEC Enthusiasts Club at http://www.dittman.net/ From vance at ikickass.org Sun Nov 4 03:06:29 2001 From: vance at ikickass.org (One Without Reason) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:27 2005 Subject: Termcap for VT340 Message-ID: Does anyone have a termcap/terminfo entry for a VT340 which will allow ReGIS color sequences in things like the Linux 'ls'? Is such a thing even possible? The terminfo entry in my database seems to be written for the VT330. Peace... Sridhar From tarsi at binhost.com Sun Nov 4 09:48:37 2001 From: tarsi at binhost.com (Tarsi) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:27 2005 Subject: AT&T 6300 SOTA Cable? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <01110409483708.07115@simon> >I have a few AT&T machines, what "sorta" cable is a SOTA? SOTA stands for [S]tate [O]f [T]he [A]rt, and was a product line by (surprise, surprise) the State Of The Art Technology Incorporated company, 559 Weddell Drive, Sunnydale CA 94089. :) The date for the manual for this particular card is 8/21/89, and I don't think the company is still in existence. The card I'm working with isn't 6300-specific; rather, it's for any 8086/8088 computer. The SOTA 386si card was/is an 8-bit ISA card that went into your 8086/8088 machine. You removed the CPU and inserted it onto the SOTA card. Then, a cable (looking much like an IDE ribbon cable) attached to the SOTA card and ran to the old 8086/88 socket and plugged in there. On boot, the card then took over your processing and only used the original chips on the motherboard for I/O. An accelerator card, if you will. This particular one can boost an 8086/88 to a 386SX machine. Nifty, eh? I also have a SOTA Memory 16i which is another add-on card that plugs into the SOTA 386si and boosts the RAM of the machine to 4MB with 4 30-pin slots for up to 16MB additional. I'm looking to maybe push my 6300 up to a 386 with 16MB RAM and install Linux on her. Maybe. :) We'll see. It'd be cool. At any rate, the IDE-ish-looking cable for the 386si card is a standard 14" cable. However, the 6300 requires a special 24" cable to handle getting from the bottom of the logic board to the top of the machine where the card interface is. This is what I'm looking for. Tarsi 210 > I have a few AT&T machines, what "sorta" cable is a SOTA? -- ---------------------------------------------- Homepage: http://tarsi.binhost.com binHOST.com: http://www.binhost.com Forever Beyond: http://www.foreverbeyond.org ---------------------------------------------- From jhellige at earthlink.net Sun Nov 4 10:54:20 2001 From: jhellige at earthlink.net (Jeff Hellige) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:27 2005 Subject: connectors needed Message-ID: I'm in need of the following pieces and would like some input on where to pick them up: - 8bit ISA slot connector, female, 31pins - 31pin ribbon cable, approx. 3-4 inches long - dual row header, female connector, 31pins each row, spacing the same as the ISA connector. What I want to do is make a short adapter to go from the Tandy 1000 PLUS-style bus connector to an 8bit ISA bus connector. I have a small circuit board already that does the conversion the other way, allowing PLUS style boards to be used in an ISA slot but I wish to plug an 8bit ISA board into the PLUS slot. The adapter board is single layer and it shows it to be a straight conversion from the ISA bus to the first row of pins. I'm told that at one time DCS Industries provided such an adapter cable with some of their upgrades but I've not been able to get any answers from them as far as if they still have any. Thanks Jeff -- Home of the TRS-80 Model 2000 FAQ File http://www.cchaven.com http://www.geocities.com/siliconvalley/lakes/6757 From dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com Sun Nov 4 14:00:47 2001 From: dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com (Douglas Quebbeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:27 2005 Subject: Thick Ethernet/Sun networking problems Message-ID: <7A9BACCEF0171D4FB77019F5104CDD37225866@jeffserver.tegjeff.com> > > > Don't forget to restore the original address with "ifconfig le0 111.0.0.1 > > > broadcast 111.255.255.255 netmask 255.0.0.0 up" when you've finished > :-) > > > > What does 'broadcast' do (other than the obvious)? > > It's just a way of explicitly stating what the broadcast address for that > interface is. In every legitimate case I can think of, it should be > redundant if you provide the netmask (or the netmask is redundant if you Oh, it's the broadcast paramater for the ifconfig command, when the lines wrapped, it made it look like a separate command, thus my confusion... -dq From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun Nov 4 15:47:11 2001 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:27 2005 Subject: connectors needed In-Reply-To: from "Jeff Hellige" at Nov 4, 1 11:54:20 am Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 754 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20011104/6b3534c9/attachment.ksh From mikeford at socal.rr.com Sun Nov 4 15:12:51 2001 From: mikeford at socal.rr.com (Mike Ford) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:27 2005 Subject: hard-sector 5 1/4 disk In-Reply-To: <002f01c1625b$8e603420$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> References: Message-ID: >The way I seem to remember it is that, back then, we were amazed when things >worked, rather than being irked when they didn't. Apple's attitude was >clearl, >though, and that was that if your data really mattered, you'd certainly use a >computer and not an Apple. The Apple wasn't designed from the ground up as a That was NEVER the apple position, and while they grew largest in education, Apple clearly targeted the SOHO market sector. What you are repeating is the Wintel propaganda against Apple, hence the accronym TA2INAT The Apple ][ is NOT a TOY. I don't see how people can fail to be impressed with a system that can come out of 22 years of use in the public school system and essentially function as new. Clean and lubricate and the floppy drives still work fine. From classiccmp at classiccmp.org Sun Nov 4 16:31:40 2001 From: classiccmp at classiccmp.org (The administrator of) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:27 2005 Subject: connectors needed In-Reply-To: from Tony Duell on Sun, 4 Nov 2001 21:47:11 +0000 (GMT) References: Message-ID: Hi, this is an automatic reply. Your message to this list HAS NOT BEEN DELIVERED, because it was empty after being processed to strip (any) non textual part. Most often, this may be due to the following conditions: * You really sent an empty message: you may not send empty message to this list (a message is empty if its body contains no text). * Your MUA send messages in HTML only mode: you have to change your MUA configurations, we do not welcome HTML on this list. * You meant to send an attachment, such as a program, an image or a file: you may not send anything of this sort to this list. If you have something you think worthwile, please, get in contact with the moderator of this list (you may reply to this message, for example), and s/he will tell you what to do. If you find something unclear about this warning, feel free to reply to this message. This is a list of the MIME types of every stripped part: A. text From doug at nut.net Sun Nov 4 18:44:31 2001 From: doug at nut.net (Doug Salot) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:27 2005 Subject: Friden Flexowriter (fwd) Message-ID: Flexowriter available in Chicago (contact MHardig@aol.com). ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Sun, 4 Nov 2001 19:12:32 EST From: MHardig@aol.com To: doug@blinkenlights.com Subject: Friden Flexowriter I have used these. As recently as a few years ago. I own one. It works, to the best of my knowledge, the punch feature anyway. I haven't figured out how to make the read feature work, but then this one is a lot newer than the one I trained on. The model I have is a late 60's, and spent most of it's life punching tape for CNC machines. Do you think anyone would be interested in this? I've had people interested but they're too far away to ship this ungainly bastard. I live near Chicago. Thanks in advance. Cool website! Mark Hardig From clandrum at monumental.com Sun Nov 4 19:38:42 2001 From: clandrum at monumental.com (Craig Landrum) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:27 2005 Subject: classiccmp-digest V1 #766 References: <200111031905.NAA68998@opal.tseinc.com> Message-ID: <3BE5ED9D.C04BFD90@monumental.com> Phil and Mac junkies; The MicronEye was in production for a very short time as far as I know. It claimed to use a "video RAM" - a light sensitive RAM that they claim they discovered by accident. The MicronEye was a bit larger than a 35MM film cannister and had a focusable lens and iris at one end and a ribbon cable coming out the other end, which plugged into a tan flat controller box. The controller box connected to the printer or modem serial port on the Mac. The camera came with a small foot-high tripod so you could aim it and a diskette with the application sofware on it. The software let you take black and white pictures and save them as either PICT files or MacPaint files. If I recall correctly, the picture that it took was half of an original Mac size screen and was definitely black and white only. Also FYI - the MicronEye was released and available when the original 128K Mac was released, which was when I got mine. I still have it all along with the software. It all worked last time I fired it up. I also have an interesting game call Chipwits for the 128K Mac. It let you program a robot to navigate itself through various environments. The programming language was innovative and was call "IBOL", as it was all icon based. I also have Musicworks - which let you write music and play it back, etc. And of course I have Macwrite and Macpaint in the original box. Both work on the Mac OS system version 1.0. I have an original IBM PC from the same era. I boot both of them up side by side and wonder why in the hell the PC won. (and yes, I know why, before you send your reasons) As much as I love my Macs, real programming died the day they invented the GUI. Give me an assembler and some silicon and a mission, and I'm a happy guy. > From: Phil Beesley > Subject: MicronEye > > Please don't tease, Craig. Tell us a bit more about the MicronEye -- > Google doesn't throw up much more than "camera from 8 bit era". > > Phil From rcini at optonline.net Sun Nov 4 19:46:20 2001 From: rcini at optonline.net (Richard A. Cini, Jr.) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:27 2005 Subject: OT: Determining TCP port ownership Message-ID: I downloaded an evaluation version of a program called TCPView fron http://www.winternals.com which tracks in real-time the port usage and the module responsible for the port. This is how I found out that the monitoring software for the UPS was grabbing the SNMP port. I would still appreciate pointers to free utilities for NT that do this because $70 is too much to spend for the expected rare usage. Thanks to those who replied. Rich Rich Cini Collector of classic computers Build Master for the Altair32 Emulation Project Web site: http://highgate.comm.sfu.ca/~rcini/classiccmp/ /************************************************************/ From greg at cosc.canterbury.ac.nz Sun Nov 4 19:51:55 2001 From: greg at cosc.canterbury.ac.nz (Greg Ewing) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:27 2005 Subject: CPU design at the gate level In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <200111050151.OAA10025@s454.cosc.canterbury.ac.nz> ard@p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell): > What are hard/impossible to find are things like RAMs, ALUs, carry > generators, and so on. In general they are only useful to people making > CPUs and similar processing circuits, where there's enough logic to make > it worth using an FPGA How about programming an EPROM with a lookup table to emulate an ALU? Greg Ewing, Computer Science Dept, +--------------------------------------+ University of Canterbury, | A citizen of NewZealandCorp, a | Christchurch, New Zealand | wholly-owned subsidiary of USA Inc. | greg@cosc.canterbury.ac.nz +--------------------------------------+ From KenzieM at sympatico.ca Sun Nov 4 20:03:09 2001 From: KenzieM at sympatico.ca (Mike Kenzie) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:27 2005 Subject: Atari PC3000 Message-ID: <006401c1659e$05958e10$0101a8c0@sympatico.ca> I saw one of these yesterday. It looks like a monitor with floppy drive in the bottom, at the back was a plug for the power and another labelled video. I could not see anyplace for a keyboard to be attached. Does anyone know anything about this machine? Collector of Vintage Computers (www.ncf.ca/~ba600) From clandrum at monumental.com Sun Nov 4 20:20:59 2001 From: clandrum at monumental.com (Craig Landrum) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:27 2005 Subject: 8 inch floppy drives References: <200111042009.OAA80219@opal.tseinc.com> Message-ID: <3BE5F783.DB37932F@monumental.com> Found a nice site that can supply new 8 inch floppy drives, both half and full height and they have lots of different models as well as enclosures and power supplies. Might be a useful bookmark. I have not purchased anything from them yet so cannot vouch for them. See: www.cadigital.com Craig Landrum CTO Mindwrap, Inc. From cmurillo at emtelsa.multi.net.co Sun Nov 4 20:46:11 2001 From: cmurillo at emtelsa.multi.net.co (Carlos Murillo) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:27 2005 Subject: OT: Determining TCP port ownership In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <3.0.2.32.20011104214611.006a69e0@obregon.multi.net.co> At 08:46 PM 11/4/01 -0500, Rich Cini wrote: > > I downloaded an evaluation version of a program called TCPView fron >http://www.winternals.com which tracks in real-time the port usage and the >module responsible for the port. This is how I found out that the monitoring >software for the UPS was grabbing the SNMP port. > > I would still appreciate pointers to free utilities for NT that do this >because $70 is too much to spend for the expected rare usage. Hmmm... would you indicate the software company? My home ups comes with some software that I haven't installed, and I'd like to know if it is the same ... (apc smartups 700). At work I have a 900XL which comes with software for HPUX among others, also yet to be installed. Yes, I do have the special cables for connecting the ups to the serial ports ($41 direct from APC-yikes! but the pin-out was propietary). carlos. -------------------------------------------------------------- Carlos E. Murillo-Sanchez carlos_murillo@nospammers.ieee.org From edick at idcomm.com Sun Nov 4 21:07:04 2001 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:27 2005 Subject: hard-sector 5 1/4 disk References: Message-ID: <001301c165a6$f240e400$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> Well, I'd have to say that, since the performance and reliability haven't improved since back in the '80's, the Apple was not designed for serious use, but rather for use by those who didn't value and trust computers enough to make the investment in one that warranted the value and trust. Oddly enough, it was less costly to use a much more reliable system with a larger installed software based, targeted at small business, yet, thanks to the Apple myths, people paid 15%-25% more with the idea that it would be easier to use, which, sadly, it wasn't. More below. Dick ----- Original Message ----- From: "Mike Ford" To: Sent: Sunday, November 04, 2001 2:12 PM Subject: Re: hard-sector 5 1/4 disk > >The way I seem to remember it is that, back then, we were amazed when things > >worked, rather than being irked when they didn't. Apple's attitude was > >clear, > >though, and that was that if your data really mattered, you'd certainly use a > >computer and not an Apple. The Apple wasn't designed from the ground up as a > > That was NEVER the apple position, and while they grew largest in > education, Apple clearly targeted the SOHO market sector. What you are > repeating is the Wintel propaganda against Apple, hence the accronym > TA2INAT The Apple ][ is NOT a TOY. > The notion of "Wintel" and the associated propaganda "Myth" didn't exist in '79-'80, so that's clearly not what's being said here. > > I don't see how people can fail to be impressed with a system that can come > out of 22 years of use in the public school system and essentially function > as new. Clean and lubricate and the floppy drives still work fine. > I'd say, from many years' experience, that it is probably, and at best, as poor as it was straight out of the box. The consensus back in '80 was that, equipped with an 8" drive pair, the Apple ][ was a pretty good system, provided one bought the Videx 80x24 display card for it. > > From edick at idcomm.com Sun Nov 4 21:08:39 2001 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:27 2005 Subject: 8 inch floppy drives References: <200111042009.OAA80219@opal.tseinc.com> <3BE5F783.DB37932F@monumental.com> Message-ID: <001901c165a7$2af493a0$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> I've not purchased anything from them since '77, when I bought a couple of "digital" cassette drives from them. Their 8" drive prices are about what the drive prices were back when the technolgy was new and current, though the drives may not be. Dick ----- Original Message ----- From: "Craig Landrum" To: Sent: Sunday, November 04, 2001 7:20 PM Subject: 8 inch floppy drives > Found a nice site that can supply new 8 inch floppy drives, > both half and full height and they have lots of different > models as well as enclosures and power supplies. Might be > a useful bookmark. I have not purchased anything from > them yet so cannot vouch for them. See: > > www.cadigital.com > > Craig Landrum > CTO > Mindwrap, Inc. > > From spectre at stockholm.ptloma.edu Sun Nov 4 21:49:55 2001 From: spectre at stockholm.ptloma.edu (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:27 2005 Subject: hard-sector 5 1/4 disk In-Reply-To: <001301c165a6$f240e400$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> from Richard Erlacher at "Nov 4, 1 08:07:04 pm" Message-ID: <200111050349.TAA10364@stockholm.ptloma.edu> > Well, I'd have to say that, since the performance and reliability haven't > improved since back in the '80's, the Apple was not designed for serious use, I beg to differ. An 867MHz G4 cleans the floor with all but the newest 2.0GHz P4s, and the architecture is so compelling that people like id's John Carmack are jumping on the bandwagon (he's one of Darwin's developers, the OS behind OS X). The days of the "poor Performas" are long gone. -- ----------------------------- personal page: http://www.armory.com/~spectre/ -- Cameron Kaiser, Point Loma Nazarene University * ckaiser@stockholm.ptloma.edu -- The Commodore 64: the last true plug-and-play computer. -------------------- From mbg at world.std.com Sun Nov 4 22:37:11 2001 From: mbg at world.std.com (Megan) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:27 2005 Subject: value of classic DEC machines? Message-ID: <200111050437.XAA06865@world.std.com> >>Speaking of you guys, just curious: is this an all-male hobby? No >>members of the fairer sex here? >There's Allison for one. I don't think we raise our little girls to I know I haven't posted for awhile... but I didn't think I'd be forgotten that quickly... :-) Megan Gentry Former RT-11 Developer +--------------------------------+-------------------------------------+ | Megan Gentry, EMT/B, PP-ASEL | Internet (work): gentry!zk3.dec.com | | Unix Support Engineering Group | (home): mbg!world.std.com | | Compaq Computer Corporation | addresses need '@' in place of '!' | | 110 Spitbrook Rd. ZK03-2/T43 | URL: http://world.std.com/~mbg/ | | Nashua, NH 03062 | "pdp-11 programmer - some assembler | | (603) 884 1055 | required." - mbg KB1FCA | +--------------------------------+-------------------------------------+ From donm at cts.com Sun Nov 4 22:56:38 2001 From: donm at cts.com (Don Maslin) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:27 2005 Subject: 8 inch floppy drives In-Reply-To: <001901c165a7$2af493a0$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> Message-ID: On Sun, 4 Nov 2001, Richard Erlacher wrote: > I've not purchased anything from them since '77, when I bought a couple of > "digital" cassette drives from them. Their 8" drive prices are about what the > drive prices were back when the technolgy was new and current, though the drives > may not be. Erm! The last time that I checked, Dick, admittedly not within a month or so, they were asking $99 each for them. That is vastly different from the prices of the '70s & '80s! - don > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Craig Landrum" > To: > Sent: Sunday, November 04, 2001 7:20 PM > Subject: 8 inch floppy drives > > > > Found a nice site that can supply new 8 inch floppy drives, > > both half and full height and they have lots of different > > models as well as enclosures and power supplies. Might be > > a useful bookmark. I have not purchased anything from > > them yet so cannot vouch for them. See: > > > > www.cadigital.com > > > > Craig Landrum > > CTO > > Mindwrap, Inc. > > > > > > From donm at cts.com Sun Nov 4 22:57:53 2001 From: donm at cts.com (Don Maslin) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:27 2005 Subject: value of classic DEC machines? In-Reply-To: <200111050437.XAA06865@world.std.com> Message-ID: On Sun, 4 Nov 2001, Megan wrote: > >>Speaking of you guys, just curious: is this an all-male hobby? No > >>members of the fairer sex here? > > >There's Allison for one. I don't think we raise our little girls to > > I know I haven't posted for awhile... but I didn't think I'd be > forgotten that quickly... :-) You weren't! I posted your name. - don > Megan Gentry > Former RT-11 Developer > > +--------------------------------+-------------------------------------+ > | Megan Gentry, EMT/B, PP-ASEL | Internet (work): gentry!zk3.dec.com | > | Unix Support Engineering Group | (home): mbg!world.std.com | > | Compaq Computer Corporation | addresses need '@' in place of '!' | > | 110 Spitbrook Rd. ZK03-2/T43 | URL: http://world.std.com/~mbg/ | > | Nashua, NH 03062 | "pdp-11 programmer - some assembler | > | (603) 884 1055 | required." - mbg KB1FCA | > +--------------------------------+-------------------------------------+ > From spectre at stockholm.ptloma.edu Sun Nov 4 23:41:31 2001 From: spectre at stockholm.ptloma.edu (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:27 2005 Subject: Reconstructing "King's Quest" Message-ID: <200111050541.VAA07976@stockholm.ptloma.edu> Now that I have my utility 486 up and running with a PC 5.25" drive, there are some projects to be commenced. One of them is to get King's Quest transferred over to the PCjr, since KQ1 only plays music through the PCjr. (Or so they say.) PC Gamer published the original KQ1 on one of their cover discs about a year ago, which I have, and was able to unpack it and it's sitting on the utility 486. The problem is that the total size of the files is ~400K, and I'm willing to bet that the PCjr's floppy does not support HD 5.25" (right now I'm about 100 miles away from it, or else I'd test it :-). If it does do HD floppies, that solves the entire problem. Assuming it does not, what is the layout of files on the various KQ floppies? Can someone list the files on their KQ1 disk(s)? -- ----------------------------- personal page: http://www.armory.com/~spectre/ -- Cameron Kaiser, Point Loma Nazarene University * ckaiser@stockholm.ptloma.edu -- Let us live! Let us love! Let us share our darkest secrets! ... you first. - From curt at atari-history.com Sun Nov 4 23:38:32 2001 From: curt at atari-history.com (Curt Vendel) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:27 2005 Subject: Atari PC3000 References: <006401c1659e$05958e10$0101a8c0@sympatico.ca> Message-ID: <001301c165bc$1c794090$6fb1ff0a@cvendel> The Atari PS3000 was an Atari SC1224 Color RGB monitor and an Atari SF354 disk drive combined for use with any Atari ST computer system. Curt ----- Original Message ----- From: "Mike Kenzie" To: Sent: Sunday, November 04, 2001 9:03 PM Subject: Atari PC3000 > I saw one of these yesterday. It looks like a monitor with floppy > drive in the bottom, at the back was a plug for the power and another > labelled video. I could not see anyplace for a keyboard to be > attached. > > Does anyone know anything about this machine? > > > > Collector of Vintage Computers (www.ncf.ca/~ba600) > From jss at subatomix.com Sun Nov 4 23:42:58 2001 From: jss at subatomix.com (Jeffrey S. Sharp) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:27 2005 Subject: OT: Determining TCP port ownership In-Reply-To: <3.0.2.32.20011104214611.006a69e0@obregon.multi.net.co> Message-ID: <20011104232508.X85476-100000@lepton.subatomix.com> On Sun, 4 Nov 2001, Carlos Murillo wrote: > I do have the special cables for connecting the ups to the serial > ports ($41 direct from APC-yikes! but the pin-out was propietary). I think that, on some models at least, APC UPSes just use DSR and CTS instead of transmitting data. The place I used to work at made their own all the time. -- Jeffrey S. Sharp jss@subatomix.com From jss at subatomix.com Mon Nov 5 00:02:45 2001 From: jss at subatomix.com (Jeffrey S. Sharp) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:27 2005 Subject: Goodwill Computer Store Austin, TX Message-ID: <20011104235412.S85476-100000@lepton.subatomix.com> I met up with Bill Bradford today in Austin. One of our activities was to visit the Goodwill computer store there (you know, the one with the museum in the back). Well, it turns out that the general public is no longer allowed to see the museum pieces (either that or the museum pieces are no longer there), and it's all due to some freaks who broke in and stole -- guess what -- A FREAKING *NINTENDO* *SUPER* *FAMICOM*! -- Jeffrey S. Sharp jss@subatomix.com From mrbill at mrbill.net Mon Nov 5 00:35:10 2001 From: mrbill at mrbill.net (Bill Bradford) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:27 2005 Subject: Goodwill Computer Store Austin, TX In-Reply-To: <20011104235412.S85476-100000@lepton.subatomix.com> References: <20011104235412.S85476-100000@lepton.subatomix.com> Message-ID: <20011105003510.U487@mrbill.net> On Mon, Nov 05, 2001 at 12:02:45AM -0600, Jeffrey S. Sharp wrote: > I met up with Bill Bradford today in Austin. One of our activities was to > visit the Goodwill computer store there (you know, the one with the museum > in the back). Well, it turns out that the general public is no longer > allowed to see the museum pieces (either that or the museum pieces are no > longer there), and it's all due to some freaks who broke in and stole -- > guess what -- A FREAKING *NINTENDO* *SUPER* *FAMICOM*! Yeah. I'm *pissed*. I think I'll go talk to Jamie about that today, since I have the day off. If he'd been there today, we could have gotten back there without a problem, since he knows me.. Bill -- Bill Bradford mrbill@mrbill.net Austin, TX From Arno_1983 at gmx.de Mon Nov 5 00:40:04 2001 From: Arno_1983 at gmx.de (Arno Kletzander) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:27 2005 Subject: Sun / CalComp Printer networking problems (was: Thick Ethernet/Sun networking problems) Message-ID: <20436.1004942404@www23.gmx.net> Oh Gosh, that's a lot of stuff... I think I should've mentioned I'm in digest mode... 1. Douglas Quebbeman and Dan Wright wrote about scanning all possible IP adresses. Besides taking an awful lot of time, this is no longer necessary because we got a status page printed out which states the IP address to be still 111.1.0.1. 2. Lawrence LeMay wrote: >So, it would help me if you briefly restated the exact problem. I'm assuming you have a calcomp plotter >(but i dont know which one), that it has a M971 ethernet card... That is, mostly, correct. What we're having here is a CalComp CCL600ES, a large laserprinter, hooked up to a Thick Ethernet segment together with two SUN SPARCstations (1+ and 2) (and a 486 PC for sniffing purposes). >...and that you dont know what the IP address is set to. (...) Well, one way of solving this problem is to >reset the M971 card back to factory defaults, and then setting the IP address. Unfortunately I dont >have the manuals, but if you have the manuals you should be able to look some of this up. There is a >reset jumper on the ethernet card, so you power down the printer, remove the card, install the jumper, >power it up, then repeat to remove the jumper (assuming i recall the procedure correctly). We're positive that the IP address is still the one it was set to all the time (111.1.0.1) because we finally got the Ethernet Adapter Status Page printed out. This is done by setting the JP1 jumper on the 971, reinserting the card into the printer, and then powering up. (I suppose this means we don't have to do all that 'automated pinging' stuff...). >http://www.calgraphinc.com/Support/unix_networking.html I'd already found and read this page. Amazingly, they mention only two of the three LEDs my Ethernet Adapter has (IP, DATA and LINK). During the warmup phase, IP (green) and DATA (amber) are illuminated. After that, the IP LED goes on with a blink (rather 2 than 5 Hz, I'd say...), while the DATA LED flickers whenever something is transmitted on the Ethernet. The LINK LED stays off all the time. All of this seems to belong to the "NORMAL" column. 3. Pete Turnbull wrote: >> OK, as the IP Adress of the SUN 1+ is 111.0.0.14 and the Subnet Mask ff:00:00:00 (says so at boot): > >Which is correct for a Class A network... But isn't it outside the address section which is allowed for equipment which might possibly be connected to Internet? - But the PC we want to connect has got a modem!!! (OK, skip that until they work with their current addresses) >For Arno, this means: >create /etc/ethers if it doesn't exist >append a line with printer name and MAC (Ethernet) address >/etc/hosts must already exist for the Sun to work, so append a line for the printer >start up rarpd if it's not already running >(the order in which you do these shouldn't matter) >If we call the printer "calcomp", the line in /etc/ethers is: > >00:C0:E2:00:0C:8E calcomp > >and the line in /etc/hosts is > >111.1.0.1 calcomp (...) OK. /etc/hosts is present, reading in total: # Local Net 111.x.x.x -- 10 Mb/s Ethernet -- DAZIX # 127.0.0.1 localhost loghost 111.0.0.14 hombre 111.0.0.23 papa 111.1.0.1 pa3 /etc/ethers does not exist, but...I must stress once again that the system worked once and I don't suppose it existed back then (because nobody who had access to the system since then would have deleted anything). Also, at boot time, a line appears reading Starting local daemons: auditd sendmail (...) rarpd (...). >Is "pa3" the printer name? Yes. >Some more experimentation is needed to be sure what all the symptoms really mean. However, >obviously the printer isn't responding to an ARP request for what should be its own IP address. >Therefore either it is using some other IP address, or it has lost it's configuration and needs to be >supplied an IP address (by RARP or otherwise), or the interface is broken/dormant. I agree to that. We now know the IP adress is still correctly stored. We also know the Ethernet interface is receiving every packet transmitted (flickering DATA LED). And we know that it doesn't respond - from the (incomplete); so the interface might really be kaputt - I don't hope so, however... >Ethan Dicks wrote: >>(...) >> I think it's useful when you have an ancient network where the broadcast address uses 0-bits, rather >>than 1-bits - i.e., ip 192.168.1.1 with a netmask of 192.168.1.0 and a broadcast address of >>192.168.1.0 *not* 192.168.1.255. It's archaic, but allowed. > >So it is -- I forgot about that! The rest of what I wrote may well be drivel :-) That might be contributing to our problem. At boot, the complete network section reads: network interfache configuration: le0: flags=63 inet 111.0.0.14 netmask ff000000 broadcast 111.0.0.0 ether 8:0:20:9:bc:d7 ^^^^^^^^^ lo0: flags=49 inet 127.0.0.1 netmask ff000000 4. Iggy Drougge wrote: >You can find out the ethernet MAC address for the printer, right? Then create an ARP entry for that one. >On BSDs (the UNIX type I'm familiar with), it's done with: >arp -s arp -s hostname ether_addr >(...) >Try: >telnet 111.1.0.1 2002 hombre_tcsh (1) telnet 111.1.0.1 2002 Trying 111.1.0.1 ... telnet: connect: Connection timed out telnet> quit ;>All right, if that doesn't work, we'll have to do the abovementioned entry in the ARP table, using the ;>Ethernet address seen above: ;>arp -s calcomp 00:c0:e2:00:0c:8e hombre_tcsh (2) arp -s calcomp 00:0c:e2:00:0c:8e arp: calcomp: unknown host ;>Now you've made an ARP entry. ;Seemingly not...trying with the correct hostname: hombre_tcsh (3) arp -s pa3 00:0c:e2:00:0c:8e pa3: Not owner ;logging in as SU: hombre# arp -s pa3 00:0c:e2:00:0c:8e hombre# ;Seems to have succeeded, checking: hombre# arp -a pa3 (111.1.0.1) at 0:c0:e2:0:c:8e permanent hombre# telnet pa3 2002 Trying 111.1.0.1 ... telnet: connect: Connection timed out ;Same as it was before...pinging also still times out (no answer from pa3). Oh, and "permanent": After a reboot, the old (incomplete) is there again instead of the MAC address. Very permanent indeed... Okay, that's it for this time. I hope we'll bring that printer back up again. Thanks for your given and coming assistance. Arno Kletzander DO4NAK (2m; 70cm) Arno_1983@gmx.de -- GMX - Die Kommunikationsplattform im Internet. http://www.gmx.net From wmsmith at earthlink.net Mon Nov 5 01:48:45 2001 From: wmsmith at earthlink.net (Wayne M. Smith) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:27 2005 Subject: Reconstructing "King's Quest" References: <200111050541.VAA07976@stockholm.ptloma.edu> Message-ID: <008001c165ce$4cf0c380$f59fb2d1@Smith.earthlink.net> > Now that I have my utility 486 up and running with a PC 5.25" drive, there > are some projects to be commenced. > > One of them is to get King's Quest transferred over to the PCjr, since KQ1 > only plays music through the PCjr. (Or so they say.) PC Gamer published > the original KQ1 on one of their cover discs about a year ago, which I have, > and was able to unpack it and it's sitting on the utility 486. > > The problem is that the total size of the files is ~400K, and I'm willing > to bet that the PCjr's floppy does not support HD 5.25" (right now I'm > about 100 miles away from it, or else I'd test it :-). If it does do HD > floppies, that solves the entire problem. > > Assuming it does not, what is the layout of files on the various KQ floppies? > Can someone list the files on their KQ1 disk(s)? > > -- > ----------------------------- personal page: http://www.armory.com/~spectre/ -- > Cameron Kaiser, Point Loma Nazarene University * ckaiser@stockholm.ptloma.edu > -- Let us live! Let us love! Let us share our darkest secrets! ... you first. - Try downloading the program from: http://thelittlesite.co.za/kq1.htm If you unzip the files and then copy the files into a directory -- and he largest single file is only 196K -- the program will run. Also, there is a batch file included that is entitled _install.bat, which appears to be the installation file used with the original 1 or 2 disk version. The file indicates that in the 2 disk version, everything except the vol.2 file was on disk 1. Hope this helps. -W From pete at dunnington.u-net.com Mon Nov 5 02:33:30 2001 From: pete at dunnington.u-net.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:27 2005 Subject: Sun / CalComp Printer networking problems (was: Thick Ethernet/Sun networking problems) In-Reply-To: Arno Kletzander "Sun / CalComp Printer networking problems (was: Thick Ethernet/Sun networking problems)" (Nov 5, 7:40) References: <20436.1004942404@www23.gmx.net> Message-ID: <10111050833.ZM1664@mindy.dunnington.u-net.com> On Nov 5, 7:40, Arno Kletzander wrote: > We're positive that the IP address is still the one it was set to all the > time (111.1.0.1) because we finally got the Ethernet Adapter Status Page > printed out. OK, so we assume the printer knows its own address. > I'd already found and read this page. Amazingly, they mention only two of > the three LEDs my Ethernet Adapter has (IP, DATA and LINK). During the warmup > phase, IP (green) and DATA (amber) are illuminated. After that, the IP LED > goes on with a blink (rather 2 than 5 Hz, I'd say...), while the DATA LED > flickers whenever something is transmitted on the Ethernet. The LINK LED > stays off all the time. All of this seems to belong to the "NORMAL" column. If the LINK LED stays off, I'd be inclned to believe the interface isn't working; on all the devices I've seen it, the LINK LED is on if the network is live. Seems odd if the DATA LED blinks when there's traffic, though. I wonder what that LINK LED really is for? > 3. Pete Turnbull wrote: > >> OK, as the IP Adress of the SUN 1+ is 111.0.0.14 and the Subnet Mask > ff:00:00:00 (says so at boot): > > > >Which is correct for a Class A network... > > But isn't it outside the address section which is allowed for equipment > which might possibly be connected to Internet? - But the PC we want to connect > has got a modem!!! (OK, skip that until they work with their current addresses) Er, no, 111.0.0.0 is a real Internet address. Perhaps you're thinking of the "private" Class A network address, 10.0.0.0? The private addresses are NOT allowed to be connected to the Internet. > >For Arno, this means: > >create /etc/ethers if it doesn't exist > >append a line with printer name and MAC (Ethernet) address > >/etc/hosts must already exist for the Sun to work, so append a line for the > printer > >start up rarpd if it's not already running > >(the order in which you do these shouldn't matter) > >If we call the printer "calcomp", the line in /etc/ethers is: > > > >00:C0:E2:00:0C:8E calcomp > > hombre_tcsh (2) arp -s calcomp 00:0c:e2:00:0c:8e > > arp: calcomp: unknown host Well, to use rarpd the name in /etc/ethers has to match the line in /etc/ hosts. Also the name in the "arp -s" must match the name in /etc/hosts. Whn I wrote the descriptin, I didn't know the printer name so I just picked one. > /etc/ethers does not exist, but...I must stress once again that the system > worked once and I don't suppose it existed back then (because nobody who had > access to the system since then would have deleted anything). Then they didn't use RARP, or if they did, not from that Sun. > >Ethan Dicks wrote: > >> I think it's useful when you have an ancient network where the broadcast > address uses 0-bits, rather >>than 1-bits - i.e., ip 192.168.1.1 with a > netmask of 192.168.1.0 and a broadcast address of >>192.168.1.0 *not* > 192.168.1.255. It's archaic, but allowed. > > > >So it is -- I forgot about that! The rest of what I wrote may well be > drivel :-) > > That might be contributing to our problem. What, my drivel? Yes, quite likely :-) > At boot, the complete network section reads: > > network interfache configuration: > le0: flags=63 > inet 111.0.0.14 netmask ff000000 broadcast 111.0.0.0 > ether 8:0:20:9:bc:d7 ^^^^^^^^^ Using the old-style "wrong" broadcast address might affect ARP (which as I explained is used to get a MAC address of a destination before sending IP packets), but otherwise won't break anything. Besides, you said it worked before. > ;logging in as SU: > hombre# arp -s pa3 00:0c:e2:00:0c:8e > > hombre# > > ;Seems to have succeeded, checking: > > hombre# arp -a > pa3 (111.1.0.1) at 0:c0:e2:0:c:8e permanent > > hombre# telnet pa3 2002 > Trying 111.1.0.1 ... > telnet: connect: Connection timed out > > ;Same as it was before...pinging also still times out (no answer from pa3). Assuming 0:c0:e2:0:c:8e is the printer's MAC address, and it does know its address is 111.1.0.1, that should work -- unless the printer interface is broken or it doesn't respond to port 2002. You could try ports 9099, 9100 (used by HP JetDirect printers), 515 (lpd port), 161 (SNMP), 7 (echo). Some of those normally use UDP rather than TCP, so you might need to get something like netcat instead of telnet, though. > Oh, and "permanent": After a reboot, the old (incomplete) is there again > instead of the MAC address. Very permanent indeed... It means it doesn't age out of the arp table the way normal entries do. Normal entries age out in case IP addresses change, or in case routers are doing proxy ARP for hosts on a different subnet (in which case if the route changes, so does the ARP entry). All entries still get lost on reboot; they're stored in kernel memory but nowhere else. -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager University of York From jhellige at earthlink.net Mon Nov 5 04:04:23 2001 From: jhellige at earthlink.net (Jeff Hellige) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:27 2005 Subject: 8 inch floppy drives In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: >On Sun, 4 Nov 2001, Richard Erlacher wrote: > >> I've not purchased anything from them since '77, when I bought a couple of >> "digital" cassette drives from them. Their 8" drive prices are >>about what the > > drive prices were back when the technolgy was new and current, >though the drives >> may not be. > >Erm! The last time that I checked, Dick, admittedly not within a month >or so, they were asking $99 each for them. That is vastly different >from the prices of the '70s & '80s! Actually most of them are priced at nearly $200 or more. It's as if they are old stock and they've never changed the price. Jeff -- Home of the TRS-80 Model 2000 FAQ File http://www.cchaven.com http://www.geocities.com/siliconvalley/lakes/6757 From rmeenaks at olf.com Mon Nov 5 07:28:55 2001 From: rmeenaks at olf.com (Ram Meenakshisundaram) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:27 2005 Subject: Axil 311 Sparcstation 10 clone Message-ID: <3BE69417.C943834E@olf.com> Hi, I picked up an Axil 311 SS10 clone over the weekend to replace my IPX. I am not at all familiar with Axil's systems, so does anyone know what types of memory sticks I can use on this system. Also, can I replace the bootrom with 2.25R so that I can use Ross mbus modules? Thanks, Ram PS: I am assuming it is 100% compatible with the SS10, but a quick google search seems to give conflicting answers.... -- ,,,, /'^'\ ( o o ) -oOOO--(_)--OOOo------------------------------------- | Ram Meenakshisundaram | | Senior Software Engineer | | OpenLink Financial Inc | | .oooO Phone: (516) 227-6600 x267 | | ( ) Oooo. Email: rmeenaks@olf.com | ---\ (----( )-------------------------------------- \_) ) / (_/ From vance at ikickass.org Mon Nov 5 08:11:56 2001 From: vance at ikickass.org (One Without Reason) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:28 2005 Subject: Reconstructing "King's Quest" In-Reply-To: <200111050541.VAA07976@stockholm.ptloma.edu> Message-ID: You could always UUENCODE, split, and copy over with multiple floppies. Peace... Sridhar On Sun, 4 Nov 2001, Cameron Kaiser wrote: > Now that I have my utility 486 up and running with a PC 5.25" drive, there > are some projects to be commenced. > > One of them is to get King's Quest transferred over to the PCjr, since KQ1 > only plays music through the PCjr. (Or so they say.) PC Gamer published > the original KQ1 on one of their cover discs about a year ago, which I have, > and was able to unpack it and it's sitting on the utility 486. > > The problem is that the total size of the files is ~400K, and I'm willing > to bet that the PCjr's floppy does not support HD 5.25" (right now I'm > about 100 miles away from it, or else I'd test it :-). If it does do HD > floppies, that solves the entire problem. > > Assuming it does not, what is the layout of files on the various KQ floppies? > Can someone list the files on their KQ1 disk(s)? > > -- > ----------------------------- personal page: http://www.armory.com/~spectre/ -- > Cameron Kaiser, Point Loma Nazarene University * ckaiser@stockholm.ptloma.edu > -- Let us live! Let us love! Let us share our darkest secrets! ... you first. - > From vance at ikickass.org Mon Nov 5 08:11:47 2001 From: vance at ikickass.org (One Without Reason) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:28 2005 Subject: hard-sector 5 1/4 disk In-Reply-To: <200111050349.TAA10364@stockholm.ptloma.edu> Message-ID: I'd love to have one of those dual-process G4's with the vector capabilities. MMMmmmMMMmmmMMM. Peace... Sridhar On Sun, 4 Nov 2001, Cameron Kaiser wrote: > > Well, I'd have to say that, since the performance and reliability haven't > > improved since back in the '80's, the Apple was not designed for serious use, > > I beg to differ. An 867MHz G4 cleans the floor with all but the newest 2.0GHz > P4s, and the architecture is so compelling that people like id's John Carmack > are jumping on the bandwagon (he's one of Darwin's developers, the OS behind > OS X). The days of the "poor Performas" are long gone. > > -- > ----------------------------- personal page: http://www.armory.com/~spectre/ -- > Cameron Kaiser, Point Loma Nazarene University * ckaiser@stockholm.ptloma.edu > -- The Commodore 64: the last true plug-and-play computer. -------------------- > From vance at ikickass.org Mon Nov 5 08:11:51 2001 From: vance at ikickass.org (One Without Reason) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:28 2005 Subject: value of classic DEC machines? In-Reply-To: <200111050437.XAA06865@world.std.com> Message-ID: You were mentioned. There's no danger you'd be forgotten, Megan. 8-) Peace... Sridhar On Sun, 4 Nov 2001, Megan wrote: > >>Speaking of you guys, just curious: is this an all-male hobby? No > >>members of the fairer sex here? > > >There's Allison for one. I don't think we raise our little girls to > > I know I haven't posted for awhile... but I didn't think I'd be > forgotten that quickly... :-) > > Megan Gentry > Former RT-11 Developer > > +--------------------------------+-------------------------------------+ > | Megan Gentry, EMT/B, PP-ASEL | Internet (work): gentry!zk3.dec.com | > | Unix Support Engineering Group | (home): mbg!world.std.com | > | Compaq Computer Corporation | addresses need '@' in place of '!' | > | 110 Spitbrook Rd. ZK03-2/T43 | URL: http://world.std.com/~mbg/ | > | Nashua, NH 03062 | "pdp-11 programmer - some assembler | > | (603) 884 1055 | required." - mbg KB1FCA | > +--------------------------------+-------------------------------------+ > From cmurillo at emtelsa.multi.net.co Mon Nov 5 08:15:36 2001 From: cmurillo at emtelsa.multi.net.co (Carlos Murillo) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:28 2005 Subject: OT: Determining TCP port ownership In-Reply-To: <20011104232508.X85476-100000@lepton.subatomix.com> References: <3.0.2.32.20011104214611.006a69e0@obregon.multi.net.co> Message-ID: <3.0.2.32.20011105091536.010bfd4c@obregon.multi.net.co> At 11:42 PM 11/4/01 -0600, Jeffrey wrote: >On Sun, 4 Nov 2001, Carlos Murillo wrote: >> I do have the special cables for connecting the ups to the serial >> ports ($41 direct from APC-yikes! but the pin-out was propietary). >I think that, on some models at least, APC UPSes just use DSR and CTS >instead of transmitting data. The place I used to work at made their own >all the time. I did investigate the pin-out after I bought mine; they seem to use all pins and I seem to remember that a couple are looped back? Anyway, they sure were nonstandard. They have different kinds of cables, though. carlos. -------------------------------------------------------------- Carlos E. Murillo-Sanchez carlos_murillo@nospammers.ieee.org From cmurillo at emtelsa.multi.net.co Mon Nov 5 08:18:35 2001 From: cmurillo at emtelsa.multi.net.co (Carlos Murillo) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:28 2005 Subject: hard-sector 5 1/4 disk In-Reply-To: <200111050349.TAA10364@stockholm.ptloma.edu> References: <001301c165a6$f240e400$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> Message-ID: <3.0.2.32.20011105091835.010be24c@obregon.multi.net.co> At 07:49 PM 11/4/01 -0800, Cameron wrote: >> Well, I'd have to say that, since the performance and reliability haven't >> improved since back in the '80's, the Apple was not designed for serious use, > >I beg to differ. An 867MHz G4 cleans the floor with all but the newest 2.0GHz >P4s, and the architecture is so compelling that people like id's John Carmack >are jumping on the bandwagon (he's one of Darwin's developers, the OS behind >OS X). The days of the "poor Performas" are long gone. What I would like to see is a LAPACK library that makes full use of the G4's vector processing capability--it should bring any pentium of any speed to its knees in numerical linear algebra applications. Is there any such beast around? Of the non-commercial variety? carlos. -------------------------------------------------------------- Carlos E. Murillo-Sanchez carlos_murillo@nospammers.ieee.org From RCini at congressfinancial.com Mon Nov 5 08:23:18 2001 From: RCini at congressfinancial.com (Cini, Richard) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:28 2005 Subject: OT: Determining TCP port ownership Message-ID: <497A9E0467D2D2119B760090271EB8E5879F0F@MAIL10> Carlos: The company *is* Winternals. These are guys from the Andrew Schulman book-writing group. I forget who started it (Matt Pietrek??) but he was a columnist for Microsoft Systems Journal and specialized in NT-related systems stuff. Rich ========================== Richard A. Cini, Jr. Congress Financial Corporation 1133 Avenue of the Americas 30th Floor New York, NY 10036 (212) 545-4402 (212) 840-6259 (facsimile) -----Original Message----- From: Carlos Murillo [mailto:cmurillo@emtelsa.multi.net.co] Sent: Sunday, November 04, 2001 9:46 PM To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org Subject: Re: OT: Determining TCP port ownership At 08:46 PM 11/4/01 -0500, Rich Cini wrote: > > I downloaded an evaluation version of a program called TCPView fron >http://www.winternals.com which tracks in real-time the port usage and the >module responsible for the port. This is how I found out that the monitoring >software for the UPS was grabbing the SNMP port. > > I would still appreciate pointers to free utilities for NT that do this >because $70 is too much to spend for the expected rare usage. Hmmm... would you indicate the software company? My home ups comes with some software that I haven't installed, and I'd like to know if it is the same ... (apc smartups 700). At work I have a 900XL which comes with software for HPUX among others, also yet to be installed. Yes, I do have the special cables for connecting the ups to the serial ports ($41 direct from APC-yikes! but the pin-out was propietary). carlos. -------------------------------------------------------------- Carlos E. Murillo-Sanchez carlos_murillo@nospammers.ieee.org From Robert_Feldman at jdedwards.com Mon Nov 5 08:24:35 2001 From: Robert_Feldman at jdedwards.com (Feldman, Robert) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:28 2005 Subject: One-off vs. One-of Message-ID: The American Heritage Dictionary of the English Language lists "One-off" as: Adjective: (Chiefly British) Happening, done, or made only once. Noun: Something that is not repeated or reproduced. Does anyone have an Oxford English Dictionary handy? It should give the date of the earliest in-print reference. From foo at siconic.com Mon Nov 5 08:58:51 2001 From: foo at siconic.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:28 2005 Subject: Atari PC3000 In-Reply-To: <006401c1659e$05958e10$0101a8c0@sympatico.ca> Message-ID: On Sun, 4 Nov 2001, Mike Kenzie wrote: > I saw one of these yesterday. It looks like a monitor with floppy > drive in the bottom, at the back was a plug for the power and another > labelled video. I could not see anyplace for a keyboard to be > attached. > > Does anyone know anything about this machine? I'm glad you asked about this because I meant to as well. I've had one for years now and never figured out what it was supposed to be. I didn't notice it was called the PC-3000, which implies it is an all-in-one machine. I figured it was, but never got around to playing with it to figure it out. Someone's gotta know what this is. Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org From foo at siconic.com Mon Nov 5 09:00:59 2001 From: foo at siconic.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:28 2005 Subject: hard-sector 5 1/4 disk In-Reply-To: <001301c165a6$f240e400$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> Message-ID: On Sun, 4 Nov 2001, Richard Erlacher wrote: > I'd say, from many years' experience, that it is probably, and at > best, as poor as it was straight out of the box. The consensus back > in '80 was that, equipped with an 8" drive pair, the Apple ][ was a > pretty good system, provided one bought the Videx 80x24 display card > for it. I hear people once thought tomatos were poisonous. Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org From foo at siconic.com Mon Nov 5 09:03:44 2001 From: foo at siconic.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:28 2005 Subject: Goodwill Computer Store Austin, TX In-Reply-To: <20011104235412.S85476-100000@lepton.subatomix.com> Message-ID: On Mon, 5 Nov 2001, Jeffrey S. Sharp wrote: > I met up with Bill Bradford today in Austin. One of our activities > was to visit the Goodwill computer store there (you know, the one with > the museum in the back). Well, it turns out that the general public > is no longer allowed to see the museum pieces (either that or the > museum pieces are no longer there), and it's all due to some freaks > who broke in and stole -- guess what -- A FREAKING *NINTENDO* *SUPER* > *FAMICOM*! A museum that doesn't allow visitors? What's the point of that? Like I argued way back then, they should just sell the damn systems. It makes even more sense now than before. Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org From dtwright at uiuc.edu Mon Nov 5 09:32:48 2001 From: dtwright at uiuc.edu (Dan Wright) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:28 2005 Subject: One-off vs. One-of In-Reply-To: ; from Robert_Feldman@jdedwards.com on Mon, Nov 05, 2001 at 07:24:35AM -0700 References: Message-ID: <20011105093248.B4082585@uiuc.edu> Feldman, Robert said: > The American Heritage Dictionary of the English Language lists "One-off" as: > Adjective: (Chiefly British) Happening, done, or made only once. > Noun: Something that is not repeated or reproduced. > > Does anyone have an Oxford English Dictionary handy? It should give the date > of the earliest in-print reference. The first in-print reference seems to be 1934. See below. --- From the OED2 definition of "off": 13. Used with a preceding numeral to represent a quantity in production or manufacture, esp. one off (see ONE 30b). 1934, etc. [see ONE 30b]. 1947 CROWTHER & WHIDDINGTON Science at War 49 Manufacturers found it very difficult to give up mass production, in order to make the 200 or so sets off. 1970 Cabinet Maker & Retail Furnisher 30 Oct. 205/2 Without barrier coats mould breakdown can start after 60 units off. 1973 Physics Bull. Apr. 238/2 (Advt.), Kienzle printers. 6 off, surplus to manufacturing requirements. --- From the OED2 definition of "one": 30b. one off: a single example of a manufactured product; something not repeated; a prototype. Freq. (with hyphen) attrib. or as adj. Also transf. and fig. Cf. OFF adv. 13, once-off adj. s.v. ONCE adv. B. 7b. 1934 Proc. Inst. Brit. Foundrymen XXVI. 552 A splendid one-off pattern can be swept up in very little time. 1935 Jrnl. R. Aeronaut. Soc. XXXIX. 41 One off per machine does not give us much opportunity for reducing production costs. 1947 Ibid. LI. 308/1 With the lofting technique it is possible to cut down the time required to produce a prototype aircraft for..it is possible to reproduce full-scale layouts directly on to the material to be worked..thus cutting out what was originally the factor which absorbed the most production time in the freehand manufacture of one offs. 1954 Archit. Rev. CXVI. 411/2 Hills built the first part of Cheshunt as a one off job, with no guarantees of further business, though of course it was intended to be the first of a line. 1955 Ibid. CXVII. 226/2 None of the motor-cars illustrated is a standardized mass-produced model; all are expensive, specialized, handicraft one-offs which can justly be compared to the Parthenon because, like it, they are unique works of handmade art. 1958 Listener 25 Sept. 458/2 Both the estates of the speculative rush builders and the architectural one-offs are unable to keep pace with the demand [for new houses]. 1961 Times 3 Oct. (Computer Suppl.) p. v/3 The centres are..even able to do a one-off job, such as eliminating a production bottleneck, very cheaply. 1965 R. B. ORAM Cargo Handling iv. 70 Tailor made, or one-off, machines, may give great satisfaction. 1968 Sunday Times 29 Sept. 25 Jenkins has already made a crude stab at a wealth tax with his special charge on investment incomes... But this was a one-off effort. 1970 Times 28 Mar. 21 All these relationships involve money and are on a continuing basis rather than a one-off purchase. 1973 Daily Tel. 22 Oct. 12/4 When Barry Took's Grub Street (BBC-2) was screened as a one-off..I rashly predicted that it could make a series. 1974 F. WARNER Meeting Ends II. i. 35 But we find it much harder to shake a man off afterwards, and anyway, I don't like those one off dates. I need companionship, an outing, warmth. 1976 Scottish Rev. Spring 33 For the most part they could only produce an endless stream of one-off building prototypes. 1977 Hot Car Oct. 97/1 There seems to be a good deal of misunderstanding about the way the Type Approval Regulations apply to one-offs or cars built by private individuals. --- - Dan Wright (dtwright@uiuc.edu) (http://www.uiuc.edu/~dtwright) -] ------------------------------ [-] -------------------------------- [- ``Weave a circle round him thrice, / And close your eyes with holy dread, For he on honeydew hath fed, / and drunk the milk of Paradise.'' Samuel Taylor Coleridge, Kubla Khan -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 229 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20011105/94e2f18f/attachment.bin From DAW at yalepress3.unipress.yale.edu Mon Nov 5 09:43:28 2001 From: DAW at yalepress3.unipress.yale.edu (David Woyciesjes) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:28 2005 Subject: For Sale/Trade... 68K Macs... Message-ID: <9011A52E011ED311B4280004AC1BA61501467214@yalepress3.unipress.yale.edu> Pardon my Off Topic post, I know this isn't quite the right forum, but I'd like these to go to someone who'll appreciate them... - Mac LCII 6 MB RAM, 80 MB HDD, OS 7.6, missing battery (1/2 AA, 3.6 volt Lithium) - Mac SE/30, 8 MB RAM, 70 MB HDD, OS 7.1, Radius 64 KHz Full Page Display - Mac SE FDHD - Doesn't boot (yet) - Mac Classic II, 4 MB RAM, 140 MB HDD, OS 7.5 - No mice, keyboard or monitors... I can update the software some, and might have some other Apple software to go with them, from the Apple Service Source CD Set... Everything must go, ASAP. Moving from apartment to house soon... Make reasonable offer. --- David A Woyciesjes --- C & IS Support Specialist --- Yale University Press --- mailto:david.woyciesjes@yale.edu --- (203) 432-0953 --- ICQ # - 905818 From dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com Mon Nov 5 09:45:47 2001 From: dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com (Douglas Quebbeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:28 2005 Subject: hard-sector 5 1/4 disk Message-ID: <7A9BACCEF0171D4FB77019F5104CDD3722586B@jeffserver.tegjeff.com> > On Sun, 4 Nov 2001, Richard Erlacher wrote: > > > I'd say, from many years' experience, that it is probably, and at > > best, as poor as it was straight out of the box. The consensus back > > in '80 was that, equipped with an 8" drive pair, the Apple ][ was a > > pretty good system, provided one bought the Videx 80x24 display card > > for it. > > I hear people once thought tomatos were poisonous. Yup... around 1820 in Southern Indiana, most people who grew them just liked the tiny yellow flowers the wild tomatoes produced... but a branch of my family that lived a little further north started eating them, and spreading the news. They do carry one or more chemicals that many people (especially those of Native American ancestry) are allergic to; in *any* form, they have the effect of causing my sinuses to swell shut. -dq From bpope at wordstock.com Mon Nov 5 09:59:10 2001 From: bpope at wordstock.com (Bryan Pope) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:28 2005 Subject: Rubber Restorer... Message-ID: <200111051559.KAA15293@wordstock.com> Does anyone know where I can get "Rubber Restorer"? I know it comes in a spray. I thought I had bought it before at Radio Shack, but they didn't have any or a clue. Thanks, Bryan Pope From optimus at canit.se Sun Nov 4 21:02:11 2001 From: optimus at canit.se (Iggy Drougge) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:28 2005 Subject: VT330/VT340 Manual In-Reply-To: <004601c164d9$e205db40$8a0101ac@ibm23xhr06> Message-ID: <530.709T550T2423751optimus@canit.se> John Allain skrev: >Ever configure a VT100? No menus! We recently opened up a very old TEC terminal in order to give it a new power cable. We were quite surprised at how primitive it was. The PCB was very hand- drawn, with very smooth, organic lines, and didn't contain much more than an Intel microcontroller. Setup? There was a bank of DIP switches under the keyboard. I wonder if it will work. Does anyone have any info on a TEC Datascreen? -- En ligne avec Thor 2.6a. Computer programmers know how to use their hardware. From menadeau at mediaone.net Mon Nov 5 10:20:20 2001 From: menadeau at mediaone.net (Michael Nadeau) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:28 2005 Subject: Rubber Restorer... References: <200111051559.KAA15293@wordstock.com> Message-ID: <02ea01c16615$c9224fe0$0b01a8c0@ValuedCustomer> You might try this product: http://fixyourownprinter.com/kkx3.html I can't vouch for it since I've never used the product. --Mike Michael Nadeau Editorial Services 603-893-2379 ----- Original Message ----- From: "Bryan Pope" To: Sent: Monday, November 05, 2001 10:59 AM Subject: Rubber Restorer... > > Does anyone know where I can get "Rubber Restorer"? I know it comes in a > spray. > > I thought I had bought it before at Radio Shack, but they didn't have any or > a clue. > > Thanks, > > Bryan Pope > From jss at subatomix.com Mon Nov 5 10:28:04 2001 From: jss at subatomix.com (Jeffrey S. Sharp) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:28 2005 Subject: OT: Determining TCP port ownership In-Reply-To: <3.0.2.32.20011105091536.010bfd4c@obregon.multi.net.co> Message-ID: <20011105100801.F87336-100000@lepton.subatomix.com> On Mon, 5 Nov 2001, Carlos Murillo wrote: > I did investigate the pin-out after I bought mine; they seem to use > all pins and I seem to remember that a couple are looped back? Sounds like a flavor of null-modem cable to me. -- Jeffrey S. Sharp jss@subatomix.com From DAW at yalepress3.unipress.yale.edu Mon Nov 5 10:33:50 2001 From: DAW at yalepress3.unipress.yale.edu (David Woyciesjes) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:28 2005 Subject: For Sale/Trade... 68K Macs... Message-ID: <9011A52E011ED311B4280004AC1BA6150146721B@yalepress3.unipress.yale.edu> A little clarification... The SE/30 has the Radius eaxpansion card. Don't have the external monitor for it... ! -----Original Message----- ! From: David Woyciesjes ! Sent: Monday, November 05, 2001 10:42 AM ! To: Mac-NT Mail List (E-mail) ! Subject: For Sale/Trade... 68K Macs... ! ! ! Pardon my Off Topic post, I know this isn't quite the ! right forum, but I'd like these to go to someone who'll ! appreciate them... ! ! - Mac LCII 6 MB RAM, 80 MB HDD, OS 7.6, missing battery (1/2 ! AA, 3.6 volt Lithium) ! - Mac SE/30, 8 MB RAM, 70 MB HDD, OS 7.1, Radius 64 KHz Full ! Page Display ! - Mac SE FDHD - Doesn't boot (yet) ! - Mac Classic II, 4 MB RAM, 140 MB HDD, OS 7.5 ! ! - No mice, keyboard or monitors... ! ! I can update the software some, and might have some ! other Apple software to go with them, from the Apple Service ! Source CD Set... ! Everything must go, ASAP. Moving from apartment to house soon... ! Make reasonable offer. ! ! --- David A Woyciesjes ! --- C & IS Support Specialist ! --- Yale University Press ! --- mailto:david.woyciesjes@yale.edu ! --- (203) 432-0953 ! --- ICQ # - 905818 ! From edick at idcomm.com Mon Nov 5 10:51:10 2001 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:28 2005 Subject: Rubber Restorer... References: <200111051559.KAA15293@wordstock.com> Message-ID: <000f01c1661a$12cd1ea0$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> There's another, more readily available, product with which I've had good results on paper feed mechanisms and tape transport rollers, etc. That's a carpet-cleaning product called "Spot Shot" and is also a spray. It's quite reasonably spriced at stores like CostCo, but is also available at most supermarkets. Dick ----- Original Message ----- From: "Bryan Pope" To: Sent: Monday, November 05, 2001 8:59 AM Subject: Rubber Restorer... > > Does anyone know where I can get "Rubber Restorer"? I know it comes in a > spray. > > I thought I had bought it before at Radio Shack, but they didn't have any or > a clue. > > Thanks, > > Bryan Pope > > From allain at panix.com Mon Nov 5 09:26:12 2001 From: allain at panix.com (John Allain) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:28 2005 Subject: value of classic DEC machines? References: <200111050437.XAA06865@world.std.com> Message-ID: <005c01c16623$af72a820$21fe54a6@ibm23xhr06> MBG: > I know I haven't posted for awhile... but I didn't think > I'd be forgotten that quickly... :-) No, not forgotten at all. I just figured you were wise enough to get away from this 100-postings-a-day craziness. John A. From jhfine at idirect.com Mon Nov 5 11:54:28 2001 From: jhfine at idirect.com (Jerome Fine) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:28 2005 Subject: value of classic DEC machines? References: <200111050437.XAA06865@world.std.com> Message-ID: <3BE6D254.AF1955DB@idirect.com> >Megan wrote: > >>Speaking of you guys, just curious: is this an all-male hobby? No > >>members of the fairer sex here? > >There's Allison for one. I don't think we raise our little girls to > I know I haven't posted for awhile... but I didn't think I'd be > forgotten that quickly... :-) Jerome Fine replies: Out of posts, out of mind. Seriously, as one of the last remaining members of the RT-11 development team who is still active (even though at a hobby level I presume), it is not likely you will be forgotten. I have a question to ask about how to handle bugs in RT-11? This is a race condition and a SYSGEN is the usual way it would be fixed. But is everyone who still uses RT-11 even able to do one, let alone interested if it is possible to use a PAX.SYS (PAtches pseudo device driver)? I don't see that anyone is going to pay for PAX.SYS, but initially it would be just for hobby users, and so obviously without charge. If anyone is interested in a Beta Version, please e-mail. It is ready for my own use (about 95% complete), but needs a lot more done (i.e. only 65% coded, only 20% tested and only 10% documentation - see, even I can be humorous some of the time) before the beta version for hobby users is ready for release. If no one wants to even test for the bug on their own systems, then I can't see the point of making PAX.SYS ready to be released. In addition, I am interested in fixing any other bugs in RT-11. Is the list that was around when V5.06 was released still available or was it "lost" in the transition to Mentec? Also, is Mentec still interested in any new releases for RT-11, let alone a patch? Any what about the status of the hobby CD for PDP-11 software? And while I am asking, is Mentec still considering any new releases for any other PDP-11 software such as RSX-11? While I am not interested in anything except RT-11, if Mentec still receives sufficient net profit from PDP-11 software, that might influence any decisions on when and if the hobby CD is to be released - if ever? Hopefully, this is a semi-private list and these questions are OK on this list as long as they are not widely asked? Just thought I would ask at the top of the chain.... :-) (Actually, just what does that :-) mean?) Sincerely yours, Jerome Fine From edick at idcomm.com Mon Nov 5 12:07:28 2001 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:28 2005 Subject: hard-sector 5 1/4 disk References: <200111050349.TAA10364@stockholm.ptloma.edu> Message-ID: <001d01c16624$bb2b08a0$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> I don't know what you Apple-Computer-Co pimps have been smoking ... I've never said ANYTHING about products manufactured and sold after 1990 or so, and I certainly have limited my comments to the products using the Wozniak floppy disk interface, which is the basis of the complaints I've had to deal with since 1978. That's not to say that the "other" products are better in any way, but simply to limit this "discussion" since I clearly have little knowledge of or liking for Apple Computer Co products, having consistently refused consulting for companies that used them as computing platforms since my own disappointing experience in 1980. I'll repeat, that I find the Apple disk interface of the type associated with the Apple][ family to be ridiculously fragile, requiring extensive precautions in day-to-day use and extensive maintenance on a frequent (weekly) basis in order to make them at all useful. That's a disappointment because technology available at the same time these devices became popular worked MUCH better, though people wanting to buy fully integrated systems which the Apple "computers" of the time were marketed to be, weren't willing to pay the price, hence, were stuck with the Apple product instead. Now, as for the post 1985 products, all of you Microsoft-haters ought to remember how Apple dealt with its user base during the Lisa and early MAC years, whenever you disparage M$ (not to defend these practices ... ) for its distribution of different OS API's to different software vendors, depending on the "deal" that was made. I'm not at all certain of the truth of the claim that the latest Apple-Computer-Co products "clean the floor" with the latest P4's or whatever. I'm willing to believe that their manufacturer claims that, however. It's no secret that Apple likes to compare the raw computing power of their CPU's with that of other processors with out taking into account the fact that they take a large percentage (in the old 8MHz 68K systems it was more than half) of the CPU's bandwidth and devote it to savimg Apple Computer Co some money. While it's not a bad idea in itself, from an advertising standpoint, at least, claiming that, when you use their product with processor XYZ, which performs so and so with respect to processor ABC, albeit in a different environment than the ABC uses, it's no better a representation of what you really get after the up to 80% performance penalty for Apple's use of the processor bandwidth to avoid hardware costs, which hardware costs are passed along to the buyer just the same, it's no better than the inflated performance claims of the other "camps." Now, I don't like Apple Computer Co's attitude toward their customers' data, inherited, for sure, from the '80's, but certainly perpetuated into the current generation, that if you really wanted a computer, you wouldn't have bought an Apple Computer Co product. Consequently, I avoid them, and, to large extent, their customers. All this stems from the fact that back in the '80's, if even the teensiest thing went wrong in the Apple]['s interaction with its own FD subsystem, the Apple][ went "TILT" and unless you knew things not yet published, you had no option but to restart and lose your current set of working data. What's more, if you were foolish enough to power down the system with a diskette in the drive, or if you were foolish enough to set the Apple up as shown in numerous installations, with the monitor atop the 2 FDD's and that pair atop the Apple box, your disk subsystem gave you what they (Apple Computer Co) figured you deserved. When I wrote: " > > > Well, I'd have to say that, since the performance and reliability haven't > > improved since back in the '80's, the Apple was not designed for serious use, > ... " I clearly meant that the performance of the (APPLE ][) disk subsystems manufactured back in the '80's, which were the ones under discussion, hadn't improved in reliability or performance, which should now be clear, as I neither know, nor care about the performance, or even existence of the Apple produt line, and probably won't unless things change significantly. We were, after all, discussing classic hardware, and not the current stuff. Dick ----- Original Message ----- From: "Cameron Kaiser" To: Sent: Sunday, November 04, 2001 8:49 PM Subject: Re: hard-sector 5 1/4 disk > > Well, I'd have to say that, since the performance and reliability haven't > > improved since back in the '80's, the Apple was not designed for serious use, > > > I beg to differ. An 867MHz G4 cleans the floor with all but the newest 2.0GHz > P4s, and the architecture is so compelling that people like id's John Carmack > are jumping on the bandwagon (he's one of Darwin's developers, the OS behind > OS X). The days of the "poor Performas" are long gone. > > -- > ----------------------------- personal page: http://www.armory.com/~spectre/ -- > Cameron Kaiser, Point Loma Nazarene University * ckaiser@stockholm.ptloma.edu > -- The Commodore 64: the last true plug-and-play computer. -------------------- > > From pete at dunnington.u-net.com Mon Nov 5 12:36:00 2001 From: pete at dunnington.u-net.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:28 2005 Subject: OT: Determining TCP port ownership In-Reply-To: Carlos Murillo "Re: OT: Determining TCP port ownership" (Nov 5, 9:15) References: <3.0.2.32.20011104214611.006a69e0@obregon.multi.net.co> <3.0.2.32.20011105091536.010bfd4c@obregon.multi.net.co> Message-ID: <10111051836.ZM1982@mindy.dunnington.u-net.com> On Nov 5, 9:15, Carlos Murillo wrote: > At 11:42 PM 11/4/01 -0600, Jeffrey wrote: > >On Sun, 4 Nov 2001, Carlos Murillo wrote: > >> I do have the special cables for connecting the ups to the serial > >> ports ($41 direct from APC-yikes! but the pin-out was propietary). > >I think that, on some models at least, APC UPSes just use DSR and CTS > >instead of transmitting data. The place I used to work at made their own > >all the time. > > I did investigate the pin-out after I bought mine; they seem to use > all pins and I seem to remember that a couple are looped back? > Anyway, they sure were nonstandard. They have different kinds of > cables, though. Have you looked at the Network UPS Tools project? http://www.exploits.org/nut/ has information about lots of UPS stuff, inculding APC. See in particular the 3rd Q/A in the FAQ at http://www.exploits.org/nut/library/faq.txt -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager University of York From pete at dunnington.u-net.com Mon Nov 5 12:49:50 2001 From: pete at dunnington.u-net.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:28 2005 Subject: OT: Determining TCP port ownership In-Reply-To: "Jeffrey S. Sharp" "Re: OT: Determining TCP port ownership" (Nov 5, 10:28) References: <20011105100801.F87336-100000@lepton.subatomix.com> Message-ID: <10111051849.ZM2001@mindy.dunnington.u-net.com> On Nov 5, 10:28, Jeffrey S. Sharp wrote: > On Mon, 5 Nov 2001, Carlos Murillo wrote: > > > I did investigate the pin-out after I bought mine; they seem to use > > all pins and I seem to remember that a couple are looped back? > > Sounds like a flavor of null-modem cable to me. More than that. Some of the pins are used for non-RS232 on/off signalling of battery state, etc. That's common on UPSs, not just APC ones. My Powerware Prestige 6000 does that too. -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager University of York From zmerch at 30below.com Mon Nov 5 13:01:32 2001 From: zmerch at 30below.com (Roger Merchberger) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:28 2005 Subject: Rubber Restorer... In-Reply-To: <200111051559.KAA15293@wordstock.com> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20011105135918.00ac85c8@mail.30below.com> Rumor has it that Bryan Pope may have mentioned these words: >Does anyone know where I can get "Rubber Restorer"? I know it comes in a >spray. > >I thought I had bought it before at Radio Shack, but they didn't have any or >a clue. Not sure what kind of rubber you're trying to restore, but if it's printer rollers you're trying to "re-stickify" what works good for me is "Marvel Mystery Oil." Put some on a t-shirt rag and hit all the rollers in your inkjet or laser printer - I've "refurbished" several printers this way, some more than once. HTH, Roger "Merch" Merchberger From donm at cts.com Mon Nov 5 13:09:43 2001 From: donm at cts.com (Don Maslin) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:28 2005 Subject: Reconstructing "King's Quest" In-Reply-To: <200111050541.VAA07976@stockholm.ptloma.edu> Message-ID: On Sun, 4 Nov 2001, Cameron Kaiser wrote: > Now that I have my utility 486 up and running with a PC 5.25" drive, there > are some projects to be commenced. > > One of them is to get King's Quest transferred over to the PCjr, since KQ1 > only plays music through the PCjr. (Or so they say.) PC Gamer published > the original KQ1 on one of their cover discs about a year ago, which I have, > and was able to unpack it and it's sitting on the utility 486. > > The problem is that the total size of the files is ~400K, and I'm willing > to bet that the PCjr's floppy does not support HD 5.25" (right now I'm > about 100 miles away from it, or else I'd test it :-). If it does do HD > floppies, that solves the entire problem. Cameron, why not rig up an external 720k drive to solve your problem. - don > Assuming it does not, what is the layout of files on the various KQ floppies? > Can someone list the files on their KQ1 disk(s)? > > -- > ----------------------------- personal page: http://www.armory.com/~spectre/ -- > Cameron Kaiser, Point Loma Nazarene University * ckaiser@stockholm.ptloma.edu > -- Let us live! Let us love! Let us share our darkest secrets! ... you first. - > From UberTechnoid at home.com Mon Nov 5 13:26:55 2001 From: UberTechnoid at home.com (UberTechnoid@home.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:28 2005 Subject: Rubber Restorer... In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20011105135918.00ac85c8@mail.30below.com> Message-ID: <20011105193033.DMBL29958.femail22.sdc1.sfba.home.com@BENCHBOX> Damn Merch, what isn't Marvel good for?! It also frees stuck pistons in old motorcycles. They DO make rubber-restorer and I've used it, but the effects are only good for a limited number of cycles before you have to re-treat the rollers or do what you probably should have done in the first place - buy new rollers. Of course, if your refurbing some arcane peice of gear as is likely you would be, maybe those rollers are unavailable or prohibitively expensive. Another thing, to the best of my knowlege, no restorer will resolidify a gooey roller, this stuff is just to put some stick back onto the rollers' surface. Regards, Jeff In <5.1.0.14.2.20011105135918.00ac85c8@mail.30below.com>, on 11/05/01 at 02:01 PM, Roger Merchberger said: >Rumor has it that Bryan Pope may have mentioned these words: >>Does anyone know where I can get "Rubber Restorer"? I know it comes in a >>spray. >> >>I thought I had bought it before at Radio Shack, but they didn't have any or >>a clue. >Not sure what kind of rubber you're trying to restore, but if it's >printer rollers you're trying to "re-stickify" what works good for me is >"Marvel Mystery Oil." Put some on a t-shirt rag and hit all the rollers >in your inkjet or laser printer - I've "refurbished" several printers >this way, some more than once. >HTH, >Roger "Merch" Merchberger -- ----------------------------------------------------------- Jeffrey S. Worley Asheville, NC USA 828-6984887 UberTechnoid@Home.com ----------------------------------------------------------- From bpope at wordstock.com Mon Nov 5 13:33:20 2001 From: bpope at wordstock.com (Bryan Pope) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:28 2005 Subject: Rubber Restorer... In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20011105135918.00ac85c8@mail.30below.com> from "Roger Merchberger" at Nov 5, 01 02:01:32 pm Message-ID: <200111051933.OAA04879@wordstock.com> > > Rumor has it that Bryan Pope may have mentioned these words: > > >Does anyone know where I can get "Rubber Restorer"? I know it comes in a > >spray. > > > >I thought I had bought it before at Radio Shack, but they didn't have any or > >a clue. > > Not sure what kind of rubber you're trying to restore, but if it's printer The printer rollers that initialy grab a sheet of paper and drag it in. > rollers you're trying to "re-stickify" what works good for me is "Marvel > Mystery Oil." Put some on a t-shirt rag and hit all the rollers in your Where does one find "Marvel Mystery Oil"? Does this stuff leave any residue? > inkjet or laser printer - I've "refurbished" several printers this way, > some more than once. Thanks, Bryan From Robert_Feldman at jdedwards.com Mon Nov 5 13:24:23 2001 From: Robert_Feldman at jdedwards.com (Feldman, Robert) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:28 2005 Subject: Rubber Restorer... Message-ID: HP recommends a plain old water (a damp cloth) to clean printer rollers. I just cleaned the rollers on my DeskJet 820ce and the paper feed is much improved. It remains to be seen how long it lasts this way, though. -----Original Message----- From: Roger Merchberger [mailto:zmerch@30below.com] Sent: Monday, November 05, 2001 1:02 PM To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org Subject: Re: Rubber Restorer... Rumor has it that Bryan Pope may have mentioned these words: >Does anyone know where I can get "Rubber Restorer"? I know it comes in a >spray. > >I thought I had bought it before at Radio Shack, but they didn't have any or >a clue. Not sure what kind of rubber you're trying to restore, but if it's printer rollers you're trying to "re-stickify" what works good for me is "Marvel Mystery Oil." Put some on a t-shirt rag and hit all the rollers in your inkjet or laser printer - I've "refurbished" several printers this way, some more than once. HTH, Roger "Merch" Merchberger From UberTechnoid at home.com Mon Nov 5 13:36:08 2001 From: UberTechnoid at home.com (UberTechnoid@home.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:28 2005 Subject: Reconstructing "King's Quest" In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20011105194333.DUHY11617.femail14.sdc1.sfba.home.com@BENCHBOX> You can use PKzip. The command to span multiple volumes, recurse subdirs, and compress maximally is (example for directory FOO): Pkzip -rex&fu a:foo.zip foo This will take a directory, it's files, and all it's subdirs into file foo on a:. Pkzip will prompt you for additional floppys as required. Regards, Jeff In , on 11/05/01 at 09:11 AM, One Without Reason said: >You could always UUENCODE, split, and copy over with multiple floppies. >Peace... Sridhar >On Sun, 4 Nov 2001, Cameron Kaiser wrote: >> Now that I have my utility 486 up and running with a PC 5.25" drive, there >> are some projects to be commenced. >> >> One of them is to get King's Quest transferred over to the PCjr, since KQ1 >> only plays music through the PCjr. (Or so they say.) PC Gamer published >> the original KQ1 on one of their cover discs about a year ago, which I have, >> and was able to unpack it and it's sitting on the utility 486. >> >> The problem is that the total size of the files is ~400K, and I'm willing >> to bet that the PCjr's floppy does not support HD 5.25" (right now I'm >> about 100 miles away from it, or else I'd test it :-). If it does do HD >> floppies, that solves the entire problem. >> >> Assuming it does not, what is the layout of files on the various KQ floppies? >> Can someone list the files on their KQ1 disk(s)? >> >> -- >> ----------------------------- personal page: http://www.armory.com/~spectre/ -- >> Cameron Kaiser, Point Loma Nazarene University * ckaiser@stockholm.ptloma.edu >> -- Let us live! Let us love! Let us share our darkest secrets! ... you first. - >> -- ----------------------------------------------------------- Jeffrey S. Worley Asheville, NC USA 828-6984887 UberTechnoid@Home.com ----------------------------------------------------------- From hansp at aconit.org Mon Nov 5 13:50:10 2001 From: hansp at aconit.org (Hans B Pufal) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:28 2005 Subject: CPU design at the gate level References: <200111050151.OAA10025@s454.cosc.canterbury.ac.nz> Message-ID: <3BE6ED72.6070407@aconit.org> Greg Ewing wrote: > How about programming an EPROM with a lookup > table to emulate an ALU? Brings back memories of a harebrained idea I was presented with in all seriousness some 20 years ago. A CPU implemented entirely in a lookup ROM. All processor state fed in as address bits and the output reset all the state bits. A really fast processor, capable of any operation in one clock. Only problem is the size of the ROM for any reasoable state vector. The rest of the week was spent figuring out how to reduce the ROM size by factoring out sub systems which were implemented in this way. Really wierd - and it went nowhere..... -- HBP From UberTechnoid at home.com Mon Nov 5 13:47:50 2001 From: UberTechnoid at home.com (UberTechnoid@home.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:28 2005 Subject: hard-sector 5 1/4 disk In-Reply-To: <200111040329.TAA10522@stockholm.ptloma.edu> Message-ID: <20011105195014.EMRC12539.femail3.sdc1.sfba.home.com@BENCHBOX> True. The Atari drives had internal rom mods to speed them up from 19.2kbps to 38.4, 54.4, and 108kbps. Made by ICD, CSS, and Happy among others. They used interleaving for the most part except for the Happy which buffered an entire track at a time. You could read an entire 92k floppy in something like 10 seconds. Regards, Jeff >And it's possible to do better -- look at stuff like DolphinDOS. Even a >simple dual-bit method like Epyx FastLoad (where the ATN line [IIRC] is >used as a second data line) achieves at least 5x improvement. The >hardware is sound, the software sucked. -- ----------------------------------------------------------- Jeffrey S. Worley Asheville, NC USA 828-6984887 UberTechnoid@Home.com ----------------------------------------------------------- From menadeau at mediaone.net Mon Nov 5 14:04:54 2001 From: menadeau at mediaone.net (Michael Nadeau) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:28 2005 Subject: Rubber Restorer... References: <200111051933.OAA04879@wordstock.com> Message-ID: <098d01c16635$28d17500$0b01a8c0@ValuedCustomer> Try an auto parts store. Mechanics use it for all sorts of stuff. --Mike Michael Nadeau Editorial Services 603-893-2379 ----- Original Message ----- From: "Bryan Pope" To: Sent: Monday, November 05, 2001 2:33 PM Subject: Re: Rubber Restorer... > > > > Rumor has it that Bryan Pope may have mentioned these words: > > > > >Does anyone know where I can get "Rubber Restorer"? I know it comes in a > > >spray. > > > > > >I thought I had bought it before at Radio Shack, but they didn't have any or > > >a clue. > > > > Not sure what kind of rubber you're trying to restore, but if it's printer > > The printer rollers that initialy grab a sheet of paper and drag it in. > > > > rollers you're trying to "re-stickify" what works good for me is "Marvel > > Mystery Oil." Put some on a t-shirt rag and hit all the rollers in your > > Where does one find "Marvel Mystery Oil"? Does this stuff leave any residue? > > > > inkjet or laser printer - I've "refurbished" several printers this way, > > some more than once. > > Thanks, > > Bryan > From rhblakeman at kih.net Mon Nov 5 14:09:23 2001 From: rhblakeman at kih.net (Russ Blakeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:28 2005 Subject: Rubber Restorer... In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20011105135918.00ac85c8@mail.30below.com> Message-ID: Just don't do it to the rubber roller just under the drum unit on a laser printer or copier as this is the transfer roller and it will ruin both the roller and the drum. Mystery Oil is a good fix but I'm not really sure of it's long term effect on the rubber. MCM Electronics (maybe even places like DigiKey, Mouser, etc) sell rubber rejuvenator, but many have shipping restrictions due to the hazards to the user or in shipment. -> -----Original Message----- -> From: owner-classiccmp@classiccmp.org -> Roger Merchberger -> Sent: Monday, November 05, 2001 1:02 PM -> To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org -> Subject: Re: Rubber Restorer... -> -> -> Rumor has it that Bryan Pope may have mentioned these words: -> -> >Does anyone know where I can get "Rubber Restorer"? I know it -> comes in a -> >spray. -> > -> >I thought I had bought it before at Radio Shack, but they -> didn't have any or -> >a clue. -> -> Not sure what kind of rubber you're trying to restore, but if -> it's printer -> rollers you're trying to "re-stickify" what works good for me is "Marvel -> Mystery Oil." Put some on a t-shirt rag and hit all the rollers in your -> inkjet or laser printer - I've "refurbished" several printers this way, -> some more than once. -> -> HTH, -> Roger "Merch" Merchberger -> -> From rhblakeman at kih.net Mon Nov 5 14:09:25 2001 From: rhblakeman at kih.net (Russ Blakeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:28 2005 Subject: Rubber Restorer... In-Reply-To: <200111051933.OAA04879@wordstock.com> Message-ID: Walmart and auto parts chains carry it - it's a top end lube/cleaner that you add to your motor oil. -> -----Original Message----- -> From: owner-classiccmp@classiccmp.org -> [mailto:owner-classiccmp@classiccmp.org]On Behalf Of Bryan Pope -> Sent: Monday, November 05, 2001 1:33 PM -> To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org -> Subject: Re: Rubber Restorer... -> -> -> > -> > Rumor has it that Bryan Pope may have mentioned these words: -> > -> > >Does anyone know where I can get "Rubber Restorer"? I know -> it comes in a -> > >spray. -> > > -> > >I thought I had bought it before at Radio Shack, but they -> didn't have any or -> > >a clue. -> > -> > Not sure what kind of rubber you're trying to restore, but if -> it's printer -> -> The printer rollers that initialy grab a sheet of paper and drag it in. -> -> -> > rollers you're trying to "re-stickify" what works good for me -> is "Marvel -> > Mystery Oil." Put some on a t-shirt rag and hit all the -> rollers in your -> -> Where does one find "Marvel Mystery Oil"? Does this stuff leave -> any residue? -> -> -> > inkjet or laser printer - I've "refurbished" several printers -> this way, -> > some more than once. -> -> Thanks, -> -> Bryan -> From rhblakeman at kih.net Mon Nov 5 14:09:27 2001 From: rhblakeman at kih.net (Russ Blakeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:28 2005 Subject: Rubber Restorer... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Iso alcohol (70% works fine) is the best as it not only washes the dust off the rollers but cleans excess ink and gunk from the rollers. Some deskjets work fine with this system, others need a replacement roller as the molded fingers wear off and the roller gets shiny. -> -----Original Message----- -> From: owner-classiccmp@classiccmp.org -> [mailto:owner-classiccmp@classiccmp.org]On Behalf Of Feldman, Robert -> Sent: Monday, November 05, 2001 1:24 PM -> To: 'classiccmp@classiccmp.org' -> Subject: RE: Rubber Restorer... -> -> -> HP recommends a plain old water (a damp cloth) to clean printer -> rollers. I -> just cleaned the rollers on my DeskJet 820ce and the paper feed is much -> improved. It remains to be seen how long it lasts this way, though. -> -> -----Original Message----- -> From: Roger Merchberger [mailto:zmerch@30below.com] -> Sent: Monday, November 05, 2001 1:02 PM -> To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org -> Subject: Re: Rubber Restorer... -> -> -> Rumor has it that Bryan Pope may have mentioned these words: -> -> >Does anyone know where I can get "Rubber Restorer"? I know it -> comes in a -> >spray. -> > -> >I thought I had bought it before at Radio Shack, but they -> didn't have any -> or -> >a clue. -> -> Not sure what kind of rubber you're trying to restore, but if -> it's printer -> rollers you're trying to "re-stickify" what works good for me is "Marvel -> Mystery Oil." Put some on a t-shirt rag and hit all the rollers in your -> inkjet or laser printer - I've "refurbished" several printers this way, -> some more than once. -> -> HTH, -> Roger "Merch" Merchberger -> From rhblakeman at kih.net Mon Nov 5 14:09:29 2001 From: rhblakeman at kih.net (Russ Blakeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:28 2005 Subject: Rubber Restorer... In-Reply-To: <000f01c1661a$12cd1ea0$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> Message-ID: Spot Shot is probably like the old Carbona spot remover and has a solvent that swells and softens the surface, much like MEK (methyl ethyl ketone) does. Bad thing is that prolonged use causes the rubber/neoprene to get hard and crumbly over time. I've cleaned typewriter/daisy wheel printer platens with MEK int he past and it works very well for a couple years. -> -----Original Message----- -> From: owner-classiccmp@classiccmp.org -> [mailto:owner-classiccmp@classiccmp.org]On Behalf Of Richard Erlacher -> Sent: Monday, November 05, 2001 10:51 AM -> To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org -> Subject: Re: Rubber Restorer... -> -> -> There's another, more readily available, product with which I've had good -> results on paper feed mechanisms and tape transport rollers, -> etc. That's a -> carpet-cleaning product called "Spot Shot" and is also a spray. -> It's quite -> reasonably spriced at stores like CostCo, but is also available at most -> supermarkets. -> -> Dick -> -> ----- Original Message ----- -> From: "Bryan Pope" -> To: -> Sent: Monday, November 05, 2001 8:59 AM -> Subject: Rubber Restorer... -> -> -> > -> > Does anyone know where I can get "Rubber Restorer"? I know it -> comes in a -> > spray. -> > -> > I thought I had bought it before at Radio Shack, but they -> didn't have any or -> > a clue. -> > -> > Thanks, -> > -> > Bryan Pope -> > -> > -> -> From zmerch at 30below.com Mon Nov 5 14:12:14 2001 From: zmerch at 30below.com (Roger Merchberger) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:28 2005 Subject: Rubber Restorer... In-Reply-To: <200111051933.OAA04879@wordstock.com> References: <5.1.0.14.2.20011105135918.00ac85c8@mail.30below.com> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20011105150449.023c7a58@mail.30below.com> Rumor has it that Bryan Pope may have mentioned these words: > > > > Rumor has it that Bryan Pope may have mentioned these words: > > > > >Does anyone know where I can get "Rubber Restorer"? I know it comes in a > > >spray. > > > > > >I thought I had bought it before at Radio Shack, but they didn't have > any or > > >a clue. > > > > Not sure what kind of rubber you're trying to restore, but if it's printer > >The printer rollers that initialy grab a sheet of paper and drag it in. Should work fine... > > rollers you're trying to "re-stickify" what works good for me is "Marvel > > Mystery Oil." Put some on a t-shirt rag and hit all the rollers in your > >Where does one find "Marvel Mystery Oil"? Does this stuff leave any residue? Have you tried Wallyworld? (ahem - that would be Wal-mart... but you should be able to find it at Target, K-fart or any other nationwide-type store chain - check the automotive section...) Red can - looks like 1930's grafix they've never changed, but you can (finally) now get it in a plastic bottle... BTW: From what I've heard, Marvel Mystery Oil is just ATF without the added extras... the base oil is the same stuff. However, personally I wouldn't use ATF for your printer needs as some of those additives can do weird things to rubber... Also BTW: the person who taught me that trick is "UberTechnoid"'s brother, who currently works for me... HTH, Roger "Merch" Merchberger From rhblakeman at kih.net Mon Nov 5 14:17:52 2001 From: rhblakeman at kih.net (Russ Blakeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:28 2005 Subject: Rubber Restorer... In-Reply-To: <200111051559.KAA15293@wordstock.com> Message-ID: Radio shack usually doesn't have aclue. If they didn't make a catalog you probably wouldn't find anything if you had to depend on the average floor clerk (not that ALL clerks are nitwits, don't get me wrong) As I mentioned earlier, and actual rubber rejuvenator is availabell through MCM Electronics and Marvel does work really well and you can get it in auto parts stores and Walmart's automotive section. What brand/model and type printer are you working on? -> -----Original Message----- -> Does anyone know where I can get "Rubber Restorer"? I know it -> comes in a -> spray. -> -> I thought I had bought it before at Radio Shack, but they didn't -> have any or -> a clue. -> -> Thanks, -> -> Bryan Pope -> From jhellige at earthlink.net Mon Nov 5 13:18:53 2001 From: jhellige at earthlink.net (Jeff Hellige) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:28 2005 Subject: hard-sector 5 1/4 disk In-Reply-To: <20011105195014.EMRC12539.femail3.sdc1.sfba.home.com@BENCHBOX> References: <20011105195014.EMRC12539.femail3.sdc1.sfba.home.com@BENCHBOX> Message-ID: <01Nov5.152912est.119082@gateway.mediacen.navy.mil> >True. The Atari drives had internal rom mods to speed them up from >19.2kbps to 38.4, 54.4, and 108kbps. Made by ICD, CSS, and Happy among >others. They used interleaving for the most part except for the Happy >which buffered an entire track at a time. You could read an entire 92k >floppy in something like 10 seconds. Yes, as mentioned before I really like my Happy-upgraded 810. A huge difference between it and a normal 810. I don't think a lot of people bought the Happy upgrade for the speed increase though, but for it's copying capabilities. Jeff -- Home of the TRS-80 Model 2000 FAQ File http://www.cchaven.com http://www.geocities.com/siliconvalley/lakes/6757 From bpope at wordstock.com Mon Nov 5 14:52:45 2001 From: bpope at wordstock.com (Bryan Pope) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:28 2005 Subject: Rubber Restorer... In-Reply-To: from "Russ Blakeman" at Nov 5, 01 02:17:52 pm Message-ID: <200111052052.PAA06321@wordstock.com> > > Radio shack usually doesn't have aclue. If they didn't make a catalog you > probably wouldn't find anything if you had to depend on the average floor > clerk (not that ALL clerks are nitwits, don't get me wrong) > > As I mentioned earlier, and actual rubber rejuvenator is availabell through > MCM Electronics and Marvel does work really well and you can get it in auto > parts stores and Walmart's automotive section. > > What brand/model and type printer are you working on? > It is an Okidata Okimate 4w... LED printer... I can't even find the toner carts at CompUSA or MicroCenter anymore.. I had to mailorder them.. :( Bryan From mythtech at Mac.com Mon Nov 5 15:01:17 2001 From: mythtech at Mac.com (Chris) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:28 2005 Subject: Rubber Restorer... Message-ID: <200111052101.PAA02773@opal.tseinc.com> >Does anyone know where I can get "Rubber Restorer"? I know it comes in a >spray. MCM Electronics. although they are really a catalog company, not an online retailer, so I have found their web site lacking. I don't recall the extact name of their product, but I believe it is just "Rubber Rejuvinator". It comes in a small 2 oz or so bottle, kind of a yellowish liquid, and stinks pretty bad (I have a bottle at work, alas, I am not at work to give you better details). I think when I bought it I paid about $3 for the bottle, and it has lasted a LONG time. >I thought I had bought it before at Radio Shack, but they didn't have any or >a clue. RS staff being clueless? NO WAY!!!... They USED to sell it, that is where I bought my first bottle of it. However, the RatShack one I bought didn't work half as well as the one I bought from MCM. -chris From edick at idcomm.com Mon Nov 5 12:33:24 2001 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:28 2005 Subject: hard-sector 5 1/4 disk References: Message-ID: <000001c16642$cac271e0$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> That's true, actually. It was a real shock for people coming to the U.S. from post-WW1 Europe to learn that social prejudices were so strong that people perceived as "eaters of garlic" or, generally, consumers of multiple vegetables in a single meal were looked down upon as somehow inferior. That shows how insular the American attitude had become. Having sampled what was then, and by some now, still is, considered basic "meat and potatoes" cuisine, (my first wife was a midwestern preacher's daughter), I have to say this was quite silly. Americans have always been somewhat "strange" about their diet, but that's just human nature. My brother's wife and kids won't readily eat anything that's not sold at the "Golden Arches" though it can come from Burger King. It's awful to watch those now teenaged boys' (and their mother's) poking and prodding at the fine meals my now 80+ year-old mother painstakingly prepares in an effort to expose them to old-world cuisine. However, there's an easily observable basis for the beliefs regarding the Apple][ disk subsystem that I've put forth in this case, unlike the erroneous conclusions that early 20th-century Americans had drawn about diet. Clearly, there's no comparison between the CCS S-100 hardware + CP/M that I bought in 1980, and the Apple][ of the same period. However, the real fact is that there's similarly no comparison between the Apple][ of 1980 and the Apple][ of 1980 equipped with an 8" disk drive controller and two 8" drives. It's that disparity that I'm addressing, and not the Apple][ without its disk drives. The Apple][ disk subsystem was made in order to offer drives with a capacity advantage over its competitor, the TRS-80 single-density 5-14" drives. I don't remember the details of the cost difference, but the main advantage to Apple was in that they built their own drive electronics and cound benefit at the system level, cost-wise, from every little thing they left out. First of all, they didn't have to buy them, and secondly, they didn't have to tolerate and remediate their failures. They didn't have to buy the then quite costly FDC chips that their competitors used, and they didn't have to package their drives with coresident power supplies, since their packaging concept allowed them to power their drives from the Apple's PSU. The fact that they were able to pocket the cost savings, rather than passing them along to their customers, didn't find disfavor among their investors, either. However, it's still a case of "you get what they (Apple Computer Co) pay for" and they didn't pay for the same quality, and the buyer didn't get the same quality. Dick ----- Original Message ----- From: "Sellam Ismail" To: Sent: Monday, November 05, 2001 8:00 AM Subject: Re: hard-sector 5 1/4 disk > On Sun, 4 Nov 2001, Richard Erlacher wrote: > > > I'd say, from many years' experience, that it is probably, and at > > best, as poor as it was straight out of the box. The consensus back > > in '80 was that, equipped with an 8" drive pair, the Apple ][ was a > > pretty good system, provided one bought the Videx 80x24 display card > > for it. > > I hear people once thought tomatos were poisonous. > > Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ > International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org > > From rhblakeman at kih.net Mon Nov 5 15:50:28 2001 From: rhblakeman at kih.net (Russ Blakeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:28 2005 Subject: Rubber Restorer... In-Reply-To: <200111052052.PAA06321@wordstock.com> Message-ID: I take it that it's the pickup/registration roller then. Staples may still carry them although maybe only by mail order. A good source I go through (although local to me) is American Toner at american-toner.com for toners, drums, etc. You should be able to get it to pickup with either the rejuvinator they sell at http://fixyourownprinter.com/sp0.html and I looked through last year's RS catalog and they don't list it anymore. The marvel should work good too. -> -----Original Message----- -> From: owner-classiccmp@classiccmp.org -> Sent: Monday, November 05, 2001 2:53 PM -> To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org -> Subject: Re: Rubber Restorer... -> -> -> > -> > Radio shack usually doesn't have aclue. If they didn't make a -> catalog you -> > probably wouldn't find anything if you had to depend on the -> average floor -> > clerk (not that ALL clerks are nitwits, don't get me wrong) -> > -> > As I mentioned earlier, and actual rubber rejuvenator is -> availabell through -> > MCM Electronics and Marvel does work really well and you can -> get it in auto -> > parts stores and Walmart's automotive section. -> > -> > What brand/model and type printer are you working on? -> > -> -> It is an Okidata Okimate 4w... LED printer... I can't even find -> the toner -> carts at CompUSA or MicroCenter anymore.. I had to mailorder them.. :( -> -> Bryan -> From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Mon Nov 5 16:00:07 2001 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (Ben Franchuk) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:28 2005 Subject: Rubber Restorer... References: <200111052101.PAA02773@opal.tseinc.com> Message-ID: <3BE70BE7.A1651B0@jetnet.ab.ca> Chris wrote: > RS staff being clueless? NO WAY!!!... They USED to sell it, that is where > I bought my first bottle of it. However, the RatShack one I bought didn't > work half as well as the one I bought from MCM. You need the "Rubber Renew" renew. :) You can also pick it from Future/Active stores too. Ben Franchuk. -- Standard Disclaimer : 97% speculation 2% bad grammar 1% facts. "Pre-historic Cpu's" http://www.jetnet.ab.ca/users/bfranchuk From dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com Mon Nov 5 16:12:40 2001 From: dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com (Douglas Quebbeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:28 2005 Subject: hard-sector 5 1/4 disk Message-ID: <7A9BACCEF0171D4FB77019F5104CDD37225870@jeffserver.tegjeff.com> > What I would like to see is a LAPACK library that makes full use of the G4's > vector processing capability--it should bring any pentium of any speed to > its knees in numerical linear algebra applications. Is there any such beast > around? Of the non-commercial variety? Is LAPACK like LINPACK for PCs? -dq From dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com Mon Nov 5 16:16:04 2001 From: dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com (Douglas Quebbeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:28 2005 Subject: Rubber Restorer... Message-ID: <7A9BACCEF0171D4FB77019F5104CDD37225871@jeffserver.tegjeff.com> > HP recommends a plain old water (a damp cloth) to clean printer rollers. I > just cleaned the rollers on my DeskJet 820ce and the paper feed is much > improved. It remains to be seen how long it lasts this way, though. Cleaning isn't the issue- deglazing is. Rubber rollers become glazed on their surface, and whether it's from picking up dirt and dust or because the rubber simply fuses chemically at the surface I don't know. But traditionally, cerbon tetrachloride was used for this purpose. I also used it to highlight watermarks in vintage postage stamps. Regards, -dq From rhblakeman at kih.net Mon Nov 5 17:10:11 2001 From: rhblakeman at kih.net (Russ Blakeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:29 2005 Subject: Rubber Restorer... In-Reply-To: <7A9BACCEF0171D4FB77019F5104CDD37225871@jeffserver.tegjeff.com> Message-ID: Carbon Tetrachloride is what Carbona spot remover was. I think they've either outlawed it or just taken it from the market for consumers. -> -----Original Message----- -> From: owner-classiccmp@classiccmp.org -> [mailto:owner-classiccmp@classiccmp.org]On Behalf Of Douglas Quebbeman -> Sent: Monday, November 05, 2001 4:16 PM -> To: 'classiccmp@classiccmp.org' -> Subject: RE: Rubber Restorer... -> -> -> > HP recommends a plain old water (a damp cloth) to clean -> printer rollers. I -> > just cleaned the rollers on my DeskJet 820ce and the paper feed is much -> > improved. It remains to be seen how long it lasts this way, though. -> -> Cleaning isn't the issue- deglazing is. Rubber rollers become -> glazed on their surface, and whether it's from picking up dirt -> and dust or because the rubber simply fuses chemically at the -> surface I don't know. But traditionally, cerbon tetrachloride -> was used for this purpose. I also used it to highlight watermarks -> in vintage postage stamps. -> -> Regards, -> -dq -> From jrkeys at concentric.net Mon Nov 5 17:08:34 2001 From: jrkeys at concentric.net (John R. Keys Jr.) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:29 2005 Subject: Classic Gaming Collections References: <4.1.20011027132940.00baa100@206.231.8.2> <5.0.0.25.2.20011029083438.02a4b250@209.185.79.193> Message-ID: <00b401c16651$6c7b7960$b9711fd1@default> I for one have enlarged my gaming collection since it's getting harder to collect S100 and other older computer items. Every where I go now people tell me that they can get more on eBay than my offer. Some have called me back after trying to sell their items with no luck on eBay. Back to the gaming items I now have almost every Sega console, one each GameBoy series, both Atari 2600's, Atari 5200, and 7800, The Pong, Intellvision's 3 different models, Atari 400 & 800, Vic20, various C64 models, various other Atari models in the XL series, a Bally, TI99/4's various models, many handheld models like the NOMAD, GameGear, and others, Coleco Adam, VideoBrain, and many other systems plus tons of game software and cartridges. Someday I will have a complete list on the web and the units on display. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Chuck McManis" To: Sent: Monday, October 29, 2001 10:48 AM Subject: Classic Gaming OT and OT / Re: OT: Playstation 2 opinion? > On Topic and Off Topic :-) > > At 11:44 PM 10/28/01 -0800, it was written: > >PS2 is last year, by Xmas all his friends will be talking about Xbox and > >GameCube. We have N64, and I resisted forever getting one, and relented > >only as the price dropped to about $150 with a game (he just HAD to have > >Zelda). Keep in mind this is a razor blade industry, regardless of the high > >price of the console, the real money and costs will be in games etc. > > Off topic part: > > I was originally quite excited by the Xbox, I still think the _hardware_ is > cool, but the fact that Microsoft will be in charge of the software makes > me cringe. The first dedicated console that crashes not because of the > games :-( If I had to buy one this year I'd go with the PSTwo. Best of the > current lot, if I could get full docs and write my own software, I'd get > the Xbox. > > >My recommendation is to forget the console, and put together a gaming PC. > >Better intelligence to the games, and immensely greater selection and > >usefullness. > > On topic part: > > This will basically cost 10x as much in real terms and be harder to > maintain. Unless you use it only for games and even then games from > different years won't work on it. > > So how many people collect gaming environments? It seems that classic > computers go back to the early days of the C-64 vs Atari console wars. > Remember the advertisements where the young guy is sitting in a job > interview and the interviewer says, "So you can score 200,000 in space > donuts and get to the 15th level in maze wars, but what else can you do?" > and then they offer that if your kid said, "I can hack a C64" they would > hire him. (they don't really say that, they imply programming ability :-) > > But I've been a gamer as long as I've been a programmer (which is waaay too > long ;-) and witnessing the folks who got the original 4.2BSD image of the > game Haunt running under NetBSD/VAX was an example of the extremes folks > would like to get to, to recreate gaming experiences. > > All the gaming magazines (especially the ones that are left) wax rhapsodic > about the "good old days" when polygon count and particle physics weren't > as important as game play. There are some classic computer games out there > (SpaceWar being perhaps the most famous) that need preserving. > > --Chuck > > > From cmurillo at emtelsa.multi.net.co Mon Nov 5 17:27:49 2001 From: cmurillo at emtelsa.multi.net.co (Carlos Murillo) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:29 2005 Subject: OT: Determining TCP port ownership In-Reply-To: <497A9E0467D2D2119B760090271EB8E5879F0F@MAIL10> Message-ID: <3.0.2.32.20011105182749.010c5ce8@obregon.multi.net.co> At 09:23 AM 11/5/01 -0500, Rich wrote: >Carlos: > > The company *is* Winternals. These are guys from the Andrew Schulman >book-writing group. I forget who started it (Matt Pietrek??) but he was a >columnist for Microsoft Systems Journal and specialized in NT-related >systems stuff. Rich: sorry for not being clear... what I wanted to know is who is the maker of the UPS monitoring software... -------------------------------------------------------------- Carlos E. Murillo-Sanchez carlos_murillo@nospammers.ieee.org From jrkeys at concentric.net Mon Nov 5 17:48:19 2001 From: jrkeys at concentric.net (John R. Keys Jr.) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:29 2005 Subject: Dec & Sun stuff available in Houston TX References: <3BDDD4CF.29765.17ECE04@localhost> Message-ID: <00f201c16654$59cbd0a0$b9711fd1@default> Boy I just left Houston on Sunday after 7 days there. ----- Original Message ----- From: "David Williams" To: Sent: Monday, October 29, 2001 10:14 PM Subject: Dec & Sun stuff available in Houston TX > I have just spent the last few weeks living a computer collector's > nightmare.... moving. The entire collection had to be packed up, > loaded, moved and unloaded. The good part is I now have a larger > place and I'm taking the time to organize and get a better, newer > inventory. During which I've decided to pass along some things I > have extras of or will never get around to working with. There is > more to come but I'll start off with some of the larger items. > > Item 1 - DEC PDP-8 stuff. Two card cages with various boards (not > sure what all is in there at the moment), power distribution strip, > and two RK05 drives. I think I have a PDP-8A front panel that went > with all of it here too. All is in unknown condition. I thought I'd > have time to try and do something with all this once but I know now > I won't. > > Item 2 - Sun 3/50. System plus two 19" monitors, 2 keyboards > and a mouse. Unknown condition. > > Item 3 - Box of various Sun OS tapes. > > If you have something you'd like to trade me I'll be happy to > consider it but otherwise they're free for pick up in Houston TX. I > often drive up to Austin (doing so this weekend in fact) and might > be convinced to tote them along but can't promise. If nobody > wants them then it's off to the local scrapper I guess. > > Other stuff available soon as I sort through all these systems and > boxes. > > ----- > "What is, is what?" > > "When the mind is free of any thought or judgement, > then and only then can we know things as they are." > > David Williams - Computer Packrat > dlw@trailingedge.com > http://www.trailingedge.com > From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Nov 5 13:56:09 2001 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:29 2005 Subject: classiccmp-digest V1 #766 In-Reply-To: <3BE5ED9D.C04BFD90@monumental.com> from "Craig Landrum" at Nov 4, 1 08:38:42 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 922 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20011105/ca50f573/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Nov 5 13:58:16 2001 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:29 2005 Subject: CPU design at the gate level In-Reply-To: <200111050151.OAA10025@s454.cosc.canterbury.ac.nz> from "Greg Ewing" at Nov 5, 1 02:51:55 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 449 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20011105/6672b2a0/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Nov 5 14:17:52 2001 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:29 2005 Subject: OT: Determining TCP port ownership In-Reply-To: <20011104232508.X85476-100000@lepton.subatomix.com> from "Jeffrey S. Sharp" at Nov 4, 1 11:42:58 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 729 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20011105/716bb9be/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Nov 5 14:14:46 2001 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:29 2005 Subject: Reconstructing "King's Quest" In-Reply-To: <200111050541.VAA07976@stockholm.ptloma.edu> from "Cameron Kaiser" at Nov 4, 1 09:41:31 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 345 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20011105/b35aca09/attachment.ksh From dittman at dittman.net Mon Nov 5 17:48:52 2001 From: dittman at dittman.net (Eric Dittman) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:29 2005 Subject: Rubber Restorer... In-Reply-To: from "Russ Blakeman" at Nov 05, 2001 05:10:11 PM Message-ID: <200111052348.fA5Nmqh20213@narnia.int.dittman.net> > Carbon Tetrachloride is what Carbona spot remover was. I think they've > either outlawed it or just taken it from the market for consumers. I seem to remember carbon tetrachloride is a carcinogen. -- Eric Dittman dittman@dittman.net Check out the DEC Enthusiasts Club at http://www.dittman.net/ From cmurillo at emtelsa.multi.net.co Mon Nov 5 19:17:05 2001 From: cmurillo at emtelsa.multi.net.co (Carlos Murillo) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:29 2005 Subject: hard-sector 5 1/4 disk In-Reply-To: <7A9BACCEF0171D4FB77019F5104CDD37225870@jeffserver.tegjeff. com> Message-ID: <3.0.2.32.20011105201705.010cce90@obregon.multi.net.co> At 05:12 PM 11/5/01 -0500, you wrote: >> What I would like to see is a LAPACK library that makes full use of the G4's >> vector processing capability--it should bring any pentium of any speed to >> its knees in numerical linear algebra applications. Is there any such beast >> around? Of the non-commercial variety? > >Is LAPACK like LINPACK for PCs? > >-dq No, it is the desdendant of it; in its latest reincarnation, for example, all inner routines were recoded to take advantage of the fact that in modern systems cache hit ratio pretty much determines what the final speed will be. Tests are made to find out the optimal inner buffer size (i.e. cache) and routines then use optimal data block sizes for the cache size. IT used to be Eispack (yes, the scope was much narrower for this one). Then Linpack. Now IT is Lapack, at least for dense systems; for sparse numerical linear algebra, there is a plethora of packages. Matlab challenge question: what does the dongarra(n) function compute? This is an undocumented function in matlab. (Jack Dongarra has been one of the pivotal personalities behind these public domain numerical linear algebra packages). -------------------------------------------------------------- Carlos E. Murillo-Sanchez carlos_murillo@nospammers.ieee.org From mikeford at socal.rr.com Mon Nov 5 18:09:50 2001 From: mikeford at socal.rr.com (Mike Ford) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:29 2005 Subject: hard-sector 5 1/4 disk In-Reply-To: <001301c165a6$f240e400$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> References: Message-ID: >Well, I'd have to say that, since the performance and reliability haven't >improved since back in the '80's, the Apple was not designed for serious use, >but rather for use by those who didn't value and trust computers enough to >make >the investment in one that warranted the value and trust. Oddly enough, >it was >less costly to use a much more reliable system with a larger installed >software >based, targeted at small business, yet, thanks to the Apple myths, people paid >15%-25% more with the idea that it would be easier to use, which, sadly, it >wasn't. > >More below. > >Dick I agree with your first sentence, indeed the performance and reliability haven't improved, but kindly explain how that is possible when you are number ONE to start with. PC clones barely last a few years in the school systems, five is OLD, ten years and its been lost in a warehouse. Working 15 year old Apple computers are routine in surplus, non working is actually rare at any age without physical damage. My personal experience with many many years of consulting supporting Apple products has shown them with few exceptions to be the most reliable and easiest to use machines. If somebody was foolish enough to buy the company computer at Sears, and bought some Performa and tried to run their business with the bundled lite versions of software, they have my sympathy. Yes indeed the Apple GUI sadly has failed. It is merely conincidental that all the PC users have paid a couple hundred bucks every two years to attempt to copy it. Nothing new on this topic, just wintel propaganda. From mikeford at socal.rr.com Mon Nov 5 17:49:48 2001 From: mikeford at socal.rr.com (Mike Ford) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:29 2005 Subject: MicronEye In-Reply-To: <3BE5ED9D.C04BFD90@monumental.com> References: <200111031905.NAA68998@opal.tseinc.com> Message-ID: >The MicronEye was in production for a very short time as far as >I know. It claimed to use a "video RAM" - a light sensitive >RAM that they claim they discovered by accident. The MicronEye Micron is the big memory maker, parent of Crucial etc. and a long time ago in a place far away Steve Ciarcia of Circuit Cellar Ink wrote of series of project articles on using a I think, 64k ram chip as a video camera. IIRC Micron was convinced to make a batch with a clear plastic resin, or maybe just in a eprom body, but a number of little projects and products grew out of it. I "believe" you can still buy them new, but haven't looked in some time. Here is a link, but I didn't find specifics on the Microneye. http://www.circuitcellar.com/ From mikeford at socal.rr.com Mon Nov 5 19:02:17 2001 From: mikeford at socal.rr.com (Mike Ford) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:29 2005 Subject: Rubber Restorer... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: >HP recommends a plain old water (a damp cloth) to clean printer rollers. I >>Does anyone know where I can get "Rubber Restorer"? I know it comes in a >>spray. I bought a bottle of Rubber Rejuvient at Frys, Platen Cleaner is another similar thing. Keep in mind HP is the same company that said Toner cartridges can't be refilled, so when the wet cloth doesn't work, use the real stuff if you don't want to buy new parts or a printer. From mikeford at socal.rr.com Mon Nov 5 19:27:26 2001 From: mikeford at socal.rr.com (Mike Ford) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:29 2005 Subject: hard-sector 5 1/4 disk In-Reply-To: <000001c16642$cac271e0$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> References: Message-ID: >That's true, actually. It was a real shock for people coming to the U.S. from >post-WW1 Europe to learn that social prejudices were so strong that people >perceived as "eaters of garlic" or, generally, consumers of multiple >vegetables Collecting old computers is a hobby, eating is one of my favorite things to do. Living in SoCal the only cuisine that seems hard to find is Hungarian, and we get by with the cross over items most German places have (Goulash and speatzl). In the course of a typical month we eat a good dozen different foods of different cultures, Dim Sum, Sushi, Steak, hamburgers and hot dogs, pizza, spagetti, Korean BBQ, Mongolian BBQ, mexican, tex-mex, salad bars, french, fancy Italian, German, Togos, Persian, Japanese (Ramen by the case), English, Polish, heck we even have an Afgan place. And that isn't even touching on 4 different kinds of BBQ from the US, plus the Carnesauria from Boliva we visit more rarely (all you can eat, but mostly just meat meat meat meat). I don't know how I could stand a place with a lesser selection. From edick at idcomm.com Mon Nov 5 19:33:16 2001 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:29 2005 Subject: 8 inch floppy drives References: Message-ID: <001701c16663$028bdb00$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> Actually, I was generalizing over their entire offering of 8" drives, and it's quite true that they have at least one drive, and in fact, not a bad one, for $99. However, most of their 8" drives, shipped without documentation, and not always "new," are priced at levels consistent with early-80's pricing for new drives. Their most expensive are not necessarily their best, nor are the cheapest ones the worst. The problem, though, is the absence of information in advance as to whether you're buying a new drive or a "cleaned-up" used one, which it takes a bit of effort to extract from them. Dick ----- Original Message ----- From: "Don Maslin" To: Sent: Sunday, November 04, 2001 9:56 PM Subject: Re: 8 inch floppy drives > > > On Sun, 4 Nov 2001, Richard Erlacher wrote: > > > I've not purchased anything from them since '77, when I bought a couple of > > "digital" cassette drives from them. Their 8" drive prices are about what the > > drive prices were back when the technolgy was new and current, though the drives > > may not be. > > Erm! The last time that I checked, Dick, admittedly not within a month > or so, they were asking $99 each for them. That is vastly different > from the prices of the '70s & '80s! > - don > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: "Craig Landrum" > > To: > > Sent: Sunday, November 04, 2001 7:20 PM > > Subject: 8 inch floppy drives > > > > > > > Found a nice site that can supply new 8 inch floppy drives, > > > both half and full height and they have lots of different > > > models as well as enclosures and power supplies. Might be > > > a useful bookmark. I have not purchased anything from > > > them yet so cannot vouch for them. See: > > > > > > www.cadigital.com > > > > > > Craig Landrum > > > CTO > > > Mindwrap, Inc. > > > > > > > > > > > > From edick at idcomm.com Mon Nov 5 19:38:22 2001 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:29 2005 Subject: 8 inch floppy drives References: Message-ID: <002301c16663$b8ab15e0$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> If you go over their prices, some of the drives are priced at >$500 just as they were back when they were freshly introduced to the market. While I'd be the last one to criticize them for asking whatever they think the market will bear, I think it's a bit overboard to call them a "good" source, particularly since they can't or won't tell you whether what you're after is offered new or used, and since it's almost certainly without documentation. (they claimed to have one set of drive documentation when I last checked, didn't know which drive it was for, and they said when that one copy was gone, they'd have none at all.) I don't remember a time when 8" drives were priced as low as $200 until after they long weren't available through distribution any longer. Dick ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jeff Hellige" To: Sent: Monday, November 05, 2001 3:04 AM Subject: Re: 8 inch floppy drives > >On Sun, 4 Nov 2001, Richard Erlacher wrote: > > > >> I've not purchased anything from them since '77, when I bought a couple of > >> "digital" cassette drives from them. Their 8" drive prices are > >>about what the > > > drive prices were back when the technolgy was new and current, > >though the drives > >> may not be. > > > >Erm! The last time that I checked, Dick, admittedly not within a month > >or so, they were asking $99 each for them. That is vastly different > >from the prices of the '70s & '80s! > > Actually most of them are priced at nearly $200 or more. > It's as if they are old stock and they've never changed the price. > > Jeff > -- > Home of the TRS-80 Model 2000 FAQ File > http://www.cchaven.com > http://www.geocities.com/siliconvalley/lakes/6757 > > From edick at idcomm.com Mon Nov 5 19:39:33 2001 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:29 2005 Subject: One-off vs. One-of References: Message-ID: <002d01c16663$e4ab1fa0$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> I figured this was so clearly a colloquialism, I never thought to check a dictionary. Good move! Dick ----- Original Message ----- From: "Feldman, Robert" To: Sent: Monday, November 05, 2001 7:24 AM Subject: Re: One-off vs. One-of > The American Heritage Dictionary of the English Language lists "One-off" as: > Adjective: (Chiefly British) Happening, done, or made only once. > Noun: Something that is not repeated or reproduced. > > Does anyone have an Oxford English Dictionary handy? It should give the date > of the earliest in-print reference. > > From edick at idcomm.com Mon Nov 5 19:50:42 2001 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:29 2005 Subject: Rubber Restorer... References: <5.1.0.14.2.20011105135918.00ac85c8@mail.30below.com> Message-ID: <003901c16665$71d99720$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> I think what causes most paper transports to stop transporting is that they acquire paper dust in their porous rubber belts and rollers and thereby lose their ability to grab the paper. The "restorer" probably allows these tiny bits of paper to be removed, thereby restoring the stickiness to the rubber surfaces. I have the same sort of problem albeit on a somewhat larger scale in the socket-liner on my prosthesis. While soft, clean, and compliant, it sticks to the skin and forms a suction-based bond that hold the thing onto the remaining portion of my leg just fine. After a few days' use, it picks up skin particles and other forms of debris, which makes the surface inadequately smooth, soft, and compliant, and so, it doesn't work any longer. Of course, unlike printer and tape drive parts, that can be cleaned easily with soap and water. As far as tape drive rollers are concerned, it's quite easy (provided you have access to and experience with machine tools, to remove the rubber from the base material after measuring the outside diameter with a dial caliper, and then build up a layer of silastic (the type you get for $2 a tube at the hardware store) let it cure in more or less round shape, and then apply a toolpost grinder with the roller in a lathe. Silastic machines quite nicely and cleanly with a fast grinder, and if you are careful not to take it down too fast and if you're careful not to get it too hot (let it cool between cuts) it is quite accurately machinable, and also allows you quite a bit of freedom to shape it once cured. Dick ----- Original Message ----- From: "Roger Merchberger" To: Sent: Monday, November 05, 2001 12:01 PM Subject: Re: Rubber Restorer... > Rumor has it that Bryan Pope may have mentioned these words: > > >Does anyone know where I can get "Rubber Restorer"? I know it comes in a > >spray. > > > >I thought I had bought it before at Radio Shack, but they didn't have any or > >a clue. > > Not sure what kind of rubber you're trying to restore, but if it's printer > rollers you're trying to "re-stickify" what works good for me is "Marvel > Mystery Oil." Put some on a t-shirt rag and hit all the rollers in your > inkjet or laser printer - I've "refurbished" several printers this way, > some more than once. > > HTH, > Roger "Merch" Merchberger > > From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Mon Nov 5 20:09:51 2001 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (ajp166) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:29 2005 Subject: CPU design at the gate level Message-ID: <004e01c1666a$33c612b0$d2f19a8d@ajp166> Tony, Faster as in is sub 150ns are fairly common and cheap. Whats problemtic is that the ALU must do about 8-16 different operations so that would be at least a 512kN part or larger. Also 74(ALS,F,AS)381 in the 16 bit or wider range would be hard pressed to do better than 50ns even with carry lookahead. Allison -----Original Message----- From: Tony Duell To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org Date: Monday, November 05, 2001 7:06 PM Subject: Re: CPU design at the gate level >> How about programming an EPROM with a lookup >> table to emulate an ALU? > >Sure, if you want one that takes 250ns or so to produce a result (the >access time of most cheap EPROMS). The 74x181 is going to be rahter >faster than that, I think. > >I have thought about using fast-ish RAMs (cache rams from old PC >motherboards) as poor-man's programmable logic. It would run at a >sensible speed, and wouldn't need proprietry programming tools. > >-tony > From jfoust at threedee.com Mon Nov 5 20:49:46 2001 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:29 2005 Subject: EDS/Bernoulli Disks Revisited In-Reply-To: <3BE6C9D6.6060108@earthlink.net> Message-ID: <4.3.2.7.0.20011105204833.023661d0@pc> I'll forward this to the Classic Computer Collector's mailing list. Someone there certainly will have a lead on some of these. - John At 10:18 AM 11/5/01 -0700, Bob Roberts wrote: >A customer of mine has a Kevex Delta II analyzer (circa 1989) equipped with the 8 inch/10 Mb Bernoulli disk drives. He would like to continue using this media for the time being but is unable to locate any of these disks for data storage. Thermo Noran is apparently unable to upgrade his drives to something more current. > >If anyone has these disks laying around, and would like to sell them, please contact me off-line. Thank you. > >Bob Roberts >EM Lab Services, Inc. >2409 S. Rural Rd Suite C >Tempe, Arizona 85282 >480.967.3946 >"Home of the 2001 World Series Champion Arizona Diamondbacks" From spectre at stockholm.ptloma.edu Mon Nov 5 21:13:45 2001 From: spectre at stockholm.ptloma.edu (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:29 2005 Subject: Reconstructing "King's Quest" In-Reply-To: from Don Maslin at "Nov 5, 1 11:09:43 am" Message-ID: <200111060313.TAA09912@stockholm.ptloma.edu> > > The problem is that the total size of the files is ~400K, and I'm willing > > to bet that the PCjr's floppy does not support HD 5.25" (right now I'm > > about 100 miles away from it, or else I'd test it :-). If it does do HD > > floppies, that solves the entire problem. > > Cameron, why not rig up an external 720k drive to solve your problem. Alas, I only have one. Mike Ford, if you're reading this ... ;-) -- ----------------------------- personal page: http://www.armory.com/~spectre/ -- Cameron Kaiser, Point Loma Nazarene University * ckaiser@stockholm.ptloma.edu -- Got Mole problems? Call Avogadro at 6.02 x 10^23. -------------------------- From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Mon Nov 5 18:13:20 2001 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (Ben Franchuk) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:29 2005 Subject: CPU design at the gate level References: <004e01c1666a$33c612b0$d2f19a8d@ajp166> Message-ID: <3BE72B20.931AA010@jetnet.ab.ca> ajp166 wrote: > > Tony, > > Faster as in is sub 150ns are fairly common and cheap. Whats > problemtic is that the ALU must do about 8-16 different operations > so that would be at least a 512kN part or larger. > > Also 74(ALS,F,AS)381 in the 16 bit or wider range would be hard > pressed to do better than 50ns even with carry lookahead. > Having a F-data sheet here lets check that 32 bit alu. Sel to ~PG 15 ns 74F381 ~PG to ~PG 12 ns 74F182 ~PG to CY 9 ns 74F182 cy to F 13 ns 74F382 ----------------------- 49 ns Yep close. Ben Franchuk. -- Standard Disclaimer : 97% speculation 2% bad grammar 1% facts. "Pre-historic Cpu's" http://www.jetnet.ab.ca/users/bfranchuk From dlw at trailingedge.com Mon Nov 5 21:14:51 2001 From: dlw at trailingedge.com (David Williams) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:29 2005 Subject: Goodwill Computer Store Austin, TX In-Reply-To: <20011105003510.U487@mrbill.net> References: <20011104235412.S85476-100000@lepton.subatomix.com> Message-ID: <3BE7014B.19478.142D8EE@localhost> Bill, I didn't get to stop by there this trip. Did they just move all of them out or have they closed off the whole back of the store? I guess I'm asking if they have the back section setup where they sold the classic systems still? David On 5 Nov 2001, at 0:35, Bill Bradford wrote: > On Mon, Nov 05, 2001 at 12:02:45AM -0600, Jeffrey S. Sharp wrote: > I > met up with Bill Bradford today in Austin. One of our activities was > to > visit the Goodwill computer store there (you know, the one with > the museum > in the back). Well, it turns out that the general public > is no longer > allowed to see the museum pieces (either that or the > museum pieces are no > longer there), and it's all due to some freaks > who broke in and stole -- > guess what -- A FREAKING *NINTENDO* > *SUPER* *FAMICOM*! > > Yeah. I'm *pissed*. I think I'll go talk to Jamie about that today, > since I have the day off. If he'd been there today, we could have > gotten back there without a problem, since he knows me.. > > Bill > > -- > Bill Bradford > mrbill@mrbill.net > Austin, TX > ----- "What is, is what?" "When the mind is free of any thought or judgement, then and only then can we know things as they are." David Williams - Computer Packrat dlw@trailingedge.com http://www.trailingedge.com From edick at idcomm.com Mon Nov 5 21:16:11 2001 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:29 2005 Subject: CPU design at the gate level References: <200111050151.OAA10025@s454.cosc.canterbury.ac.nz> <3BE6ED72.6070407@aconit.org> Message-ID: <004501c16671$90f69020$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> This isn't as unrealistic as it might seem at first glance. That's the core of what FPGA's are. Each "CLB" configurable-logic-block, or whatever the marketing term is this week, has a set of inputs, address lines, if you will, a lookup table RAM, and an output bit. This is accompanied with an output register (implemented in the LUT ramblock, based on the this-state-next-state equations for the flipflop type), and a multiplexer to bypass that register in cases where it's not wanted. The RAM that contains the lookup table also contains the steering term to that multiplexer, in the form of a feedback bit from the lookup table, and, of course, an XOR buffer by means of which the output can be set to positive or negative logic (logically implemented in the RAM as well). All this can be readily mapped into a memory. Figuring out the optimal way to do that is, of course, what keeps the FPGA makers in business. There are all kinds of strategies trading off virtual logic performance versus virtual routing capability (which is really also controlled by more RAM locations as well as by how the functions are mapped in to the RAM. It's all virtual, though. It requires a big RAM, though, in both width and depth. FPGA's today, are made with some of those resources physical rather than virtual, including, say, the mux's, registers, and buffers. However, back in the '80's, some "hardware simulators" consisted of little more than a huge RAM array with very complex software for optimizing the allocation of feedback and replication. (replication requires more RAM bits, but simplifies and speeds up certain logical constructs by eleiminating the need for multiple feedback paths for a single function. I'm sure it's not hard to envision building any logical construct in a very deep, very wide memory. Dick ----- Original Message ----- From: "Hans B Pufal" To: Sent: Monday, November 05, 2001 12:50 PM Subject: Re: CPU design at the gate level > Greg Ewing wrote: > > > How about programming an EPROM with a lookup > > table to emulate an ALU? > > > Brings back memories of a harebrained idea I was presented with in all > seriousness some 20 years ago. A CPU implemented entirely in a lookup > ROM. All processor state fed in as address bits and the output reset all > the state bits. A really fast processor, capable of any operation in one > clock. Only problem is the size of the ROM for any reasoable state vector. > > The rest of the week was spent figuring out how to reduce the ROM size > by factoring out sub systems which were implemented in this way. > > Really wierd - and it went nowhere..... > > -- HBP > > From edick at idcomm.com Mon Nov 5 21:25:17 2001 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:29 2005 Subject: Rubber Restorer... References: Message-ID: <005f01c16672$a8949820$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> Benzene or other rubber-cement thinners might work about as well as anything on the rubber rollers. I use the SpotShot becuse it's readily available, and I doubt I'll use it often enough to hurt things much. The main purpose for which I use it, other than removing routine spills from my light-colored carpeting, is removing those stick-on labels and price tags that come off with such difficulty. It works very well for that, though it smells very unpleasant. Dick ----- Original Message ----- From: "Russ Blakeman" To: Sent: Monday, November 05, 2001 1:09 PM Subject: RE: Rubber Restorer... > Spot Shot is probably like the old Carbona spot remover and has a solvent > that swells and softens the surface, much like MEK (methyl ethyl ketone) > does. Bad thing is that prolonged use causes the rubber/neoprene to get hard > and crumbly over time. I've cleaned typewriter/daisy wheel printer platens > with MEK int he past and it works very well for a couple years. > > -> -----Original Message----- > -> From: owner-classiccmp@classiccmp.org > -> [mailto:owner-classiccmp@classiccmp.org]On Behalf Of Richard Erlacher > -> Sent: Monday, November 05, 2001 10:51 AM > -> To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org > -> Subject: Re: Rubber Restorer... > -> > -> > -> There's another, more readily available, product with which I've had good > -> results on paper feed mechanisms and tape transport rollers, > -> etc. That's a > -> carpet-cleaning product called "Spot Shot" and is also a spray. > -> It's quite > -> reasonably spriced at stores like CostCo, but is also available at most > -> supermarkets. > -> > -> Dick > -> > -> ----- Original Message ----- > -> From: "Bryan Pope" > -> To: > -> Sent: Monday, November 05, 2001 8:59 AM > -> Subject: Rubber Restorer... > -> > -> > -> > > -> > Does anyone know where I can get "Rubber Restorer"? I know it > -> comes in a > -> > spray. > -> > > -> > I thought I had bought it before at Radio Shack, but they > -> didn't have any or > -> > a clue. > -> > > -> > Thanks, > -> > > -> > Bryan Pope > -> > > -> > > -> > -> > > From jpl15 at panix.com Mon Nov 5 21:38:00 2001 From: jpl15 at panix.com (John Lawson) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:29 2005 Subject: MicronEye In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Mon, 5 Nov 2001, Mike Ford wrote: > >The MicronEye was in production for a very short time as far as > >I know. It claimed to use a "video RAM" - a light sensitive > >RAM that they claim they discovered by accident. The MicronEye > > Micron is the big memory maker, parent of Crucial etc. and a long time ago > in a place far away Steve Ciarcia of Circuit Cellar Ink wrote of series of > project articles on using a I think, 64k ram chip as a video camera. IIRC > Micron was convinced to make a batch with a clear plastic resin, or maybe > just in a eprom body, but a number of little projects and products grew out > of it. I "believe" you can still buy them new, but haven't looked in some > time. > > Here is a link, but I didn't find specifics on the Microneye. > http://www.circuitcellar.com/ > Just for interest, I found the MicroMint version of this for the Apple ][ at TRW years ago.. I thought at the time it would make a nice 'C' mount lens extension barrel. It had the card, original software and manual. It sat on a shelf in my lab, forgotten,for years, until I got into classiccmping, and *then* I realized exactly what it was. I have a pic of it that I could send if someone needs visual regognition. The device now resides in Germany somewhere, deep in a secret warehouse, gaurded by Dobermans. No one really knows what's in there, save one deranged German Engineer, but he will not talk about it much. c'est la vie. Cheers John > > From edick at idcomm.com Mon Nov 5 21:48:16 2001 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:30 2005 Subject: hard-sector 5 1/4 disk References: Message-ID: <009301c16675$ddfaea20$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> see below, plz. Dick ----- Original Message ----- From: "Mike Ford" To: Sent: Monday, November 05, 2001 5:09 PM Subject: Re: hard-sector 5 1/4 disk > >Well, I'd have to say that, since the performance and reliability haven't > >improved since back in the '80's, the Apple was not designed for serious use, > >but rather for use by those who didn't value and trust computers enough to > >make > >the investment in one that warranted the value and trust. Oddly enough, > >it was > >less costly to use a much more reliable system with a larger installed > >software > >based, targeted at small business, yet, thanks to the Apple myths, people paid > >15%-25% more with the idea that it would be easier to use, which, sadly, it > >wasn't. > > > >More below. > > > >Dick > > I agree with your first sentence, indeed the performance and reliability > haven't improved, but kindly explain how that is possible when you are > number ONE to start with. PC clones barely last a few years in the school > systems, five is OLD, ten years and its been lost in a warehouse. Working > 15 year old Apple computers are routine in surplus, non working is actually > rare at any age without physical damage. > It's only the Apple][ 5-1/4" disk subsystem that causes the problems. The software abuses them considerably and the approach to error handling is so primitive that one who goes strictly by the manuals has no chance of recovering from a single-bit error. Most of the Apple products I've seen in the garbage have been there because of failed FD systems. As I said before, once they were equipped with an 8" controller, not that the media size had much to do with it, but with a standard controller, capable of employing standard time-worn methodology to the problems of providing disk storage for a small computer, they seemed to be quite solid. It's just that Apple][ disk subsystem that causes the heartburn. PC Clones last just as long in the schools as anywhere else where there are people smart enough to use them. Kids can't be expected to learn how to use computers when teachers can't. You can't force the teachers to be smart enough when they have no time to get smart. Even if it's not the "real" case, thats how many of them preceive it, and that, combined with the vast number of donations to the schools that Apple made in order to chum the market, easily explains why teachers gravitate toward the Apple product. Once they have to buy and maintain their own hardware, they quickly switch to PC's. Schools seem to have a much easier time using clearly obsolete MAC's than equally obsolescent PC's, but that's because they have to BUY the PC's, while they can get large discounts on the PC's, with their suppliers relying on high volume in heavily discounted sales of last year's MAC model to the teachers. It's possible they've outgrown that, but buyers are still quite vulnerable to the appeal of low price, even if what they end up with isn't as useful as something a little more costly. That goes both ways, by the way. > > My personal experience with many many years of consulting supporting Apple > products has shown them with few exceptions to be the most reliable and > easiest to use machines. If somebody was foolish enough to buy the company > computer at Sears, and bought some Performa and tried to run their business > with the bundled lite versions of software, they have my sympathy. > What's a Performa? > > Yes indeed the Apple GUI sadly has failed. It is merely conincidental that > all the PC users have paid a couple hundred bucks every two years to > attempt to copy it. > Actually, both Apple and M$ have copied the same model, hence the similarity. If Apple had any claim at all to the GUI, they'd not have lost in court. No. Only the dumb ones pay that. The rest of the PC users simply use the old version that still works fine. The rate at which new OS versions are promoted will slow, now that the market has reached saturation, and it won't be so easy for M$ to motivate people to buy new versions of the software that doesn't work any better than the previous version. > > Nothing new on this topic, just wintel propaganda. > From cisin at xenosoft.com Mon Nov 5 21:59:59 2001 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin (XenoSoft)) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:30 2005 Subject: MicronEye In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Mon, 5 Nov 2001, John Lawson wrote: > > http://www.circuitcellar.com/ > Just for interest, I found the MicroMint version of this for the Apple > ][ at TRW years ago.. I thought at the time it would make a nice 'C' mount > lens extension barrel. It had the card, original software and manual. It > sat on a shelf in my lab, forgotten,for years, until I got into > classiccmping, and *then* I realized exactly what it was. I have a pic of > it that I could send if someone needs visual regognition. It was, indeed, C mount. BUt, ... if you were to use that much extension on a lens, do you know what you would be in focus for? IF it were a 25mm focal length, and you were to ADD 25mm extension in addition to what would be needed for infinity focus, then it would then be focused for 2 inches away, and give you 1:1 size of image:subject. With a 12mm lens, it would provide substantial magnification. (D * F) WD = ------- (D - F) > The device now resides in Germany somewhere, deep in a secret warehouse, > gaurded by Dobermans. No one really knows what's in there, save one > deranged German Engineer, but he will not talk about it much. I had one of the Micromint ones, until about a year ago. It was never anywhere near any Apple products. I don't know where it is now - Sellam probably has it. -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin@xenosoft.com NOTE: My ISP is having some problems. If you have difficulty reaching me at this e-mail address, you can leave a message at: fcisin@merritt.edu cisin@info.sims.berkeley.edu From acme_ent at bellsouth.net Mon Nov 5 22:07:01 2001 From: acme_ent at bellsouth.net (Glen Goodwin) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:30 2005 Subject: Stacking Apple ][ stuff Message-ID: <20011106040854.FFKL29297.imf00bis.bellsouth.net@thegoodw> Richard Erlacher wrote: > if you > were foolish enough to set the Apple up as shown in numerous installations, with > the monitor atop the 2 FDD's and that pair atop the Apple box, your disk > subsystem gave you what they (Apple Computer Co) figured you deserved. Proud new owner of Apple ][e (my first Apple product) wants to know: what's wrong with stacking the drive unit and display on top of the box? Glen 0/0 From greg at cosc.canterbury.ac.nz Mon Nov 5 22:22:59 2001 From: greg at cosc.canterbury.ac.nz (Greg Ewing) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:30 2005 Subject: CPU design at the gate level In-Reply-To: <004e01c1666a$33c612b0$d2f19a8d@ajp166> Message-ID: <200111060422.RAA10757@s454.cosc.canterbury.ac.nz> ajp166 : > Whats > problemtic is that the ALU must do about 8-16 different operations > so that would be at least a 512kN part or larger. Not that big, surely? 4 A inputs, 4 B inputs, carry input, 4 function select inputs comes to 13 inputs, so 8KxN should be enough. Greg Ewing, Computer Science Dept, +--------------------------------------+ University of Canterbury, | A citizen of NewZealandCorp, a | Christchurch, New Zealand | wholly-owned subsidiary of USA Inc. | greg@cosc.canterbury.ac.nz +--------------------------------------+ From cmcmanis at mcmanis.com Mon Nov 5 22:43:58 2001 From: cmcmanis at mcmanis.com (Chuck McManis) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:30 2005 Subject: CPU design at the gate level In-Reply-To: <200111060422.RAA10757@s454.cosc.canterbury.ac.nz> References: <004e01c1666a$33c612b0$d2f19a8d@ajp166> Message-ID: <5.0.0.25.2.20011105204111.026282a0@209.185.79.193> I actually used a 64K x 16 CMOS EPROM in a design programmed with an 8 x 8 multiplication table, that made it possible to stick with a Z80 in a design that would otherwise jumped into the 16 bit processor realm. --Chuck From edick at idcomm.com Mon Nov 5 22:51:48 2001 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:30 2005 Subject: Stacking Apple ][ stuff References: <20011106040854.FFKL29297.imf00bis.bellsouth.net@thegoodw> Message-ID: <003001c1667e$be991360$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> The monitor seems to interact with the drives when the monitor is turned on. It depends, I suppose, on the monitor, but I've got the IIe with the dual drive box between it and the color monitor and from time to time, e.g. when I turn on the monitor while the computer has been powered up but the monitor has been powered down, e.g. when I go upstairs to get a sandwich or answer the doorbell, the drive runs up and the diskette is partially unreadable afterward. I'm told by more experienced Apple owners that it's a good idea to (a) ground the disk drive boxes in the case of the old aluminum-cased Apple][ drives and (b) put a sheet of grounded ferrous metal between the monitor and drives. I don't know whether this helps, as I've simply stopped turning off the monitor when I go away. Apparently one of the guys got a metal bracket of the sort sometimes used to set a printer off the desk, and set his monitor on it in order to lift the thing up so he didn't have to crane his neck down to see the display, and his problems with the disk drives were diminished, which caused him to investigate. Dick ----- Original Message ----- From: "Glen Goodwin" To: Sent: Monday, November 05, 2001 9:07 PM Subject: Stacking Apple ][ stuff > Richard Erlacher wrote: > > > if you > > were foolish enough to set the Apple up as shown in numerous > installations, with > > the monitor atop the 2 FDD's and that pair atop the Apple box, your disk > > subsystem gave you what they (Apple Computer Co) figured you deserved. > > Proud new owner of Apple ][e (my first Apple product) wants to know: > what's wrong with stacking the drive unit and display on top of the box? > > Glen > 0/0 > > From fernande at internet1.net Mon Nov 5 23:02:25 2001 From: fernande at internet1.net (Chad Fernandez) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:30 2005 Subject: food References: <000001c16642$cac271e0$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> Message-ID: <3BE76EE1.D6F3898D@internet1.net> Richard Erlacher wrote: > Americans have always been somewhat "strange" about their diet, How? I've never seen anything that I thought was strange. We don't eat anything that is still alive, or wiggles, or whatever. Our food is pretty basic, with the exception maybe of some fancy stuff.... but a lot of that is foreign influence. > but that's just > human nature. My brother's wife and kids won't readily eat anything that's not > sold at the "Golden Arches" though it can come from Burger King. It's awful to > watch those now teenaged boys' (and their mother's) poking and prodding at the > fine meals my now 80+ year-old mother painstakingly prepares in an effort to > expose them to old-world cuisine. That's because the kids were raised poorly (food wise). I have a set of cousins like that...... last Thanksgiving the boy ate only Biscuits! There diets consist of mainly carbs, and sugar! American food tends to be over processed nowadays, too. Chad Fernandez Michigan, USA From donm at cts.com Mon Nov 5 23:25:15 2001 From: donm at cts.com (Don Maslin) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:30 2005 Subject: Rubber Restorer... In-Reply-To: <200111052348.fA5Nmqh20213@narnia.int.dittman.net> Message-ID: On Mon, 5 Nov 2001, Eric Dittman wrote: > > Carbon Tetrachloride is what Carbona spot remover was. I think they've > > either outlawed it or just taken it from the market for consumers. > > I seem to remember carbon tetrachloride is a carcinogen. So they say. It also has some other nifty qualities like forming phosgene gas (think WW-I) when applied to a hot surface. - don > -- > Eric Dittman > dittman@dittman.net > Check out the DEC Enthusiasts Club at http://www.dittman.net/ > From vance at ikickass.org Mon Nov 5 23:26:48 2001 From: vance at ikickass.org (One Without Reason) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:30 2005 Subject: VAXserver question Message-ID: Hi. I am trying to get four VAXserver 3100's working. However, when I try to boot from my RRD42 (it is in 512 mode), it gives me an error DEVOFFLINE. I have tried more than one RRD42 with more than one machine. I need help ASAP. Thanks. Peace... Sridhar From donm at cts.com Mon Nov 5 23:31:42 2001 From: donm at cts.com (Don Maslin) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:30 2005 Subject: Rubber Restorer... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Mon, 5 Nov 2001, Mike Ford wrote: > >HP recommends a plain old water (a damp cloth) to clean printer rollers. I > > >>Does anyone know where I can get "Rubber Restorer"? I know it comes in a > >>spray. > > I bought a bottle of Rubber Rejuvient at Frys, Platen Cleaner is another > similar thing. Keep in mind HP is the same company that said Toner > cartridges can't be refilled, so when the wet cloth doesn't work, use the > real stuff if you don't want to buy new parts or a printer. > And also don't forget that HP put out a kit for applying sandpaper to the feed wheel tires on one of the earlier DeskJets when the tires glazed up. - don From jpl15 at panix.com Mon Nov 5 23:43:12 2001 From: jpl15 at panix.com (John Lawson) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:30 2005 Subject: Stacking Apple ][ stuff In-Reply-To: <003001c1667e$be991360$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> Message-ID: On Mon, 5 Nov 2001, Richard Erlacher wrote: > The monitor seems to interact with the drives when the monitor is turned on. It > depends, I suppose, on the monitor, but I've got the IIe with the dual drive box > between it and the color monitor and from time to time, e.g. when I turn on the > monitor while the computer has been powered up but the monitor has been powered > down, e.g. when I go upstairs to get a sandwich or answer the doorbell, the > drive runs up and the diskette is partially unreadable afterward. Can you say: "Automatic Power-On Degaussing Coils?" Click - BRRMMMMMMMmmmmm..... goodbye disk data! > > I'm told by more experienced Apple owners that it's a good idea to (a) ground > the disk drive boxes in the case of the old aluminum-cased Apple][ drives and > (b) put a sheet of grounded ferrous metal between the monitor and drives. I > don't know whether this helps, as I've simply stopped turning off the monitor > when I go away. Aluminium = non-magnetic Iron = magnetic in terms of marginal shielding from external fields. > > Apparently one of the guys got a metal bracket of the sort sometimes used to set > a printer off the desk, and set his monitor on it in order to lift the thing up > so he didn't have to crane his neck down to see the display, and his problems > with the disk drives were diminished, which caused him to investigate. Magnetic fields diminish as the square of the distance from the originating source.. so seperating the monitor will mitigate the problem, depending on the intensity of the field and the seperation distance. Question: Were *all* of youse guys asleep in science and/or physics? ;} Cheers Nikola Tesla From g at kurico.com Mon Nov 5 23:53:31 2001 From: g at kurico.com (g@kurico.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:30 2005 Subject: Goodwill Computer Store Austin, TX In-Reply-To: References: <20011104235412.S85476-100000@lepton.subatomix.com> Message-ID: <3BE7267B.29869.34E938@localhost> See comment below: On 5 Nov 2001 at 7:03, Sellam Ismail wrote: > On Mon, 5 Nov 2001, Jeffrey S. Sharp wrote: > > > I met up with Bill Bradford today in Austin. One of our activities > > was to visit the Goodwill computer store there (you know, the one with > > the museum in the back). Well, it turns out that the general public > > is no longer allowed to see the museum pieces (either that or the > > museum pieces are no longer there), and it's all due to some freaks > > who broke in and stole -- guess what -- A FREAKING *NINTENDO* *SUPER* > > *FAMICOM*! > > A museum that doesn't allow visitors? What's the point of that? > > Like I argued way back then, they should just sell the damn systems. It > makes even more sense now than before. > Actually they are just closing it until they figure out a way to help prevent stuff like this from happening again (moving a rotating subset of the display out front where it can be watched, enclosing the entire collection instead of just the "small" stuff, etc). It was also more than the loss of the Famicon, various other things have gone missing since the museum opened, so it isn't just a knee-jerk reaction by Jaime. Though I do covet some of the items in the museum, there is at least one positive thing that having it at Goodwill has over it being in the hands of a private collector, and that is that the items are available for many more people to "enjoy". Now they might not get as much as someone on this list who can "truely appreciate" it, but a great many people have seen it and had positive experiences. I think having something like this is very good at raising the awareness amongst people that these old computers aren't purely boat anchors. A few of the systems there were saved from the scrapper by the virtue of the person seeing the museum and donating versus junking the systems. So as was discussed ad-nauseum previously, I think that overall the Goodwill Computer Works museum is a net positive for classic computing. They are not perfect, but a great deal more of these systems would be landfill right now had it not been for their efforts. If anyone is ever in Austin, I encourage you to check it out (though you might want to drop me or Bill an email first to make sure it's open). George From edick at idcomm.com Tue Nov 6 00:11:14 2001 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:30 2005 Subject: Stacking Apple ][ stuff References: Message-ID: <000b01c16689$d74a2d80$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> Most of 'em were computer-science grad's so they probably didn't experience science/physics/math ... etc. Those old monitors didn't have degaussing coils in 'em did they? I never notice that obvious sound on 12" types. I, of course, wasn't, since I always got pretty good grades in those courses. However, I was never concerned with the ill effects of setting up an Apple in the way the manufacturer (who apparently sold media, etc, as well) recommended. Dick ----- Original Message ----- From: "John Lawson" To: Sent: Monday, November 05, 2001 10:43 PM Subject: Re: Stacking Apple ][ stuff > > > On Mon, 5 Nov 2001, Richard Erlacher wrote: > > > The monitor seems to interact with the drives when the monitor is turned on. It > > depends, I suppose, on the monitor, but I've got the IIe with the dual drive box > > between it and the color monitor and from time to time, e.g. when I turn on the > > monitor while the computer has been powered up but the monitor has been powered > > down, e.g. when I go upstairs to get a sandwich or answer the doorbell, the > > drive runs up and the diskette is partially unreadable afterward. > > > Can you say: "Automatic Power-On Degaussing Coils?" > > Click - BRRMMMMMMMmmmmm..... goodbye disk data! > > > > > > > I'm told by more experienced Apple owners that it's a good idea to (a) ground > > the disk drive boxes in the case of the old aluminum-cased Apple][ drives and > > (b) put a sheet of grounded ferrous metal between the monitor and drives. I > > don't know whether this helps, as I've simply stopped turning off the monitor > > when I go away. > > Aluminium = non-magnetic Iron = magnetic in terms of marginal > shielding from external fields. > > > > > > Apparently one of the guys got a metal bracket of the sort sometimes used to set > > a printer off the desk, and set his monitor on it in order to lift the thing up > > so he didn't have to crane his neck down to see the display, and his problems > > with the disk drives were diminished, which caused him to investigate. > > > Magnetic fields diminish as the square of the distance from the > originating source.. so seperating the monitor will mitigate the problem, > depending on the intensity of the field and the seperation distance. > > > > Question: Were *all* of youse guys asleep in science and/or physics? ;} > > > > Cheers > > Nikola Tesla > > > From edick at idcomm.com Tue Nov 6 00:12:37 2001 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:30 2005 Subject: food References: <000001c16642$cac271e0$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> <3BE76EE1.D6F3898D@internet1.net> Message-ID: <001d01c1668a$08645e40$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> It was only here in America that eating, garlic, tomatoes, vegetables, etc. was considered risky or inappropriate at after WW1. That's what was under discussion. Dick ----- Original Message ----- From: "Chad Fernandez" To: Sent: Monday, November 05, 2001 10:02 PM Subject: food > > > Richard Erlacher wrote: > > Americans have always been somewhat "strange" about their diet, > > How? I've never seen anything that I thought was strange. We don't eat > anything that is still alive, or wiggles, or whatever. Our food is > pretty basic, with the exception maybe of some fancy stuff.... but a lot > of that is foreign influence. > > > > but that's just > > human nature. My brother's wife and kids won't readily eat anything that's not > > sold at the "Golden Arches" though it can come from Burger King. It's awful to > > watch those now teenaged boys' (and their mother's) poking and prodding at the > > fine meals my now 80+ year-old mother painstakingly prepares in an effort to > > expose them to old-world cuisine. > > That's because the kids were raised poorly (food wise). I have a set of > cousins like that...... last Thanksgiving the boy ate only Biscuits! > There diets consist of mainly carbs, and sugar! > > American food tends to be over processed nowadays, too. > > Chad Fernandez > Michigan, USA > > From technos at nerdland.org Tue Nov 6 00:27:35 2001 From: technos at nerdland.org (Jim) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:30 2005 Subject: Rubber Restorer... Message-ID: <01C16662.37800710.technos@nerdland.org> I still see it sold under the brand name "Carbochlor" as a industrial grease thinner/solvent. Dry cleaners still use it too. Any decent hardware will stock it. On a off note, it's fun to add to a styrofoam cup of coffee.. Scent fades and the cup dissolves to a rubbery shell. Pick up the cup, you're stuck with a handful of goop and coffee. Oh, and don't get it on your hands. Not only is it a carcinogen, you'll get a benzene buzz from even small splashes. And SpotShot isn't anything like Carbona. Jim On Monday, November 05, 2001 6:10 PM, Russ Blakeman [SMTP:rhblakeman@kih.net] wrote: > Carbon Tetrachloride is what Carbona spot remover was. I think they've > either outlawed it or just taken it from the market for consumers. > > -> -----Original Message----- > -> From: owner-classiccmp@classiccmp.org > -> [mailto:owner-classiccmp@classiccmp.org]On Behalf Of Douglas Quebbeman > -> Sent: Monday, November 05, 2001 4:16 PM > -> To: 'classiccmp@classiccmp.org' > -> Subject: RE: Rubber Restorer... > -> > -> > -> > HP recommends a plain old water (a damp cloth) to clean > -> printer rollers. I > -> > just cleaned the rollers on my DeskJet 820ce and the paper feed is much > -> > improved. It remains to be seen how long it lasts this way, though. > -> > -> Cleaning isn't the issue- deglazing is. Rubber rollers become > -> glazed on their surface, and whether it's from picking up dirt > -> and dust or because the rubber simply fuses chemically at the > -> surface I don't know. But traditionally, cerbon tetrachloride > -> was used for this purpose. I also used it to highlight watermarks > -> in vintage postage stamps. > -> > -> Regards, > -> -dq > -> From jss at subatomix.com Tue Nov 6 01:02:42 2001 From: jss at subatomix.com (Jeffrey S. Sharp) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:30 2005 Subject: food In-Reply-To: <3BE76EE1.D6F3898D@internet1.net> Message-ID: <20011106005628.N88463-100000@lepton.subatomix.com> On Tue, 6 Nov 2001, Chad Fernandez wrote: > Richard Erlacher wrote: > > > Americans have always been somewhat "strange" about their diet, > > How? I've never seen anything that I thought was strange. Gravy. Gravy is pretty strange when you consider what goes into it. -- Jeffrey S. Sharp jss@subatomix.com From mikeford at socal.rr.com Tue Nov 6 00:55:20 2001 From: mikeford at socal.rr.com (Mike Ford) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:30 2005 Subject: value of scrap In-Reply-To: <3BDFA4E5.69E5DF16@verizon.net> References: <3BDCD06A.13FF@verizon.net> <026b01c16032$455defe0$de2c67cb@helpdesk> <01102908562901.26118@pluto.joules.org> Message-ID: >I was under the impression as far as computer equipment >in landfills, that it's the monitors with their phosphorous >coating that are the biggest problem. And there's little >money in those anyway. The glass used in monitors has 2 to 4 lbs of lead content, and that is the hazmat issue. From vance at ikickass.org Tue Nov 6 01:28:36 2001 From: vance at ikickass.org (One Without Reason) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:30 2005 Subject: food In-Reply-To: <20011106005628.N88463-100000@lepton.subatomix.com> Message-ID: The same criterion could be applied to hot dogs. Peace... Sridhar On Tue, 6 Nov 2001, Jeffrey S. Sharp wrote: > On Tue, 6 Nov 2001, Chad Fernandez wrote: > > > Richard Erlacher wrote: > > > > > Americans have always been somewhat "strange" about their diet, > > > > How? I've never seen anything that I thought was strange. > > Gravy. Gravy is pretty strange when you consider what goes into it. > > -- > Jeffrey S. Sharp > jss@subatomix.com > From fernande at internet1.net Tue Nov 6 03:14:20 2001 From: fernande at internet1.net (Chad Fernandez) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:30 2005 Subject: food References: Message-ID: <3BE7A9EC.DB1C5B99@internet1.net> marketing gimmick? CHad Fernandez Michigan, USA One Without Reason wrote: > > The same criterion could be applied to hot dogs. > > Peace... Sridhar From fernande at internet1.net Tue Nov 6 03:15:49 2001 From: fernande at internet1.net (Chad Fernandez) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:30 2005 Subject: food References: <20011106005628.N88463-100000@lepton.subatomix.com> Message-ID: <3BE7AA45.ADFF83E4@internet1.net> Not really. If it's homemade, it's just meat juice and flour. It just adds more liquid to food that may otherwise be a little dry. Chad Fernandez Michigan, USA "Jeffrey S. Sharp" wrote: > > On Tue, 6 Nov 2001, Chad Fernandez wrote: > > > Richard Erlacher wrote: > > > > > Americans have always been somewhat "strange" about their diet, > > > > How? I've never seen anything that I thought was strange. > > Gravy. Gravy is pretty strange when you consider what goes into it. > > -- > Jeffrey S. Sharp > jss@subatomix.com From technos at nerdland.org Tue Nov 6 05:08:39 2001 From: technos at nerdland.org (Jim) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:30 2005 Subject: food Message-ID: <01C16689.7ACF4040.technos@nerdland.org> I never thought hotdogs strange.. They're pretty straightforward, take lips, assholes, and add the FDA approved 0.5% of rat feces. Oh, add the casing. Jim On Tuesday, November 06, 2001 2:29 AM, One Without Reason [SMTP:vance@ikickass.org] wrote: > > The same criterion could be applied to hot dogs. > > Peace... Sridhar > > On Tue, 6 Nov 2001, Jeffrey S. Sharp wrote: > > > On Tue, 6 Nov 2001, Chad Fernandez wrote: > > > > > Richard Erlacher wrote: > > > > > > > Americans have always been somewhat "strange" about their diet, > > > > > > How? I've never seen anything that I thought was strange. > > > > Gravy. Gravy is pretty strange when you consider what goes into it. > > > > -- > > Jeffrey S. Sharp > > jss@subatomix.com > > From mikeford at socal.rr.com Tue Nov 6 04:55:19 2001 From: mikeford at socal.rr.com (Mike Ford) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:30 2005 Subject: Reconstructing "King's Quest" In-Reply-To: <200111060313.TAA09912@stockholm.ptloma.edu> References: from Don Maslin at "Nov 5, 1 11:09:43 am" Message-ID: >> > The problem is that the total size of the files is ~400K, and I'm willing >> > to bet that the PCjr's floppy does not support HD 5.25" (right now I'm >> > about 100 miles away from it, or else I'd test it :-). If it does do HD >> > floppies, that solves the entire problem. >> >> Cameron, why not rig up an external 720k drive to solve your problem. > >Alas, I only have one. Mike Ford, if you're reading this ... ;-) Gee by now Cameron you should know I have everything, 720k drive piece of cake, I may even have Kings Quest new in the box. From cbajpai at mediaone.net Tue Nov 6 06:09:09 2001 From: cbajpai at mediaone.net (Chandra Bajpai) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:30 2005 Subject: EDS/Bernoulli Disks Revisited In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.0.20011105204833.023661d0@pc> Message-ID: <000401c166bb$d773e9e0$b97ba8c0@ne.mediaone.net> I saw a hand full of this media that VCF East...Did they get sold? I'm not sure who the seller was...maybe Tom Owad? -Chandra -----Original Message----- From: owner-classiccmp@classiccmp.org [mailto:owner-classiccmp@classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of John Foust Sent: Monday, November 05, 2001 9:50 PM To: Bob Roberts; Microscopy@sparc5.microscopy.com Cc: classiccmp@classiccmp.org Subject: Re: EDS/Bernoulli Disks Revisited I'll forward this to the Classic Computer Collector's mailing list. Someone there certainly will have a lead on some of these. - John At 10:18 AM 11/5/01 -0700, Bob Roberts wrote: >A customer of mine has a Kevex Delta II analyzer (circa 1989) equipped >with the 8 inch/10 Mb Bernoulli disk drives. He would like to continue >using this media for the time being but is unable to locate any of >these disks for data storage. Thermo Noran is apparently unable to >upgrade his drives to something more current. > >If anyone has these disks laying around, and would like to sell them, >please contact me off-line. Thank you. > >Bob Roberts >EM Lab Services, Inc. >2409 S. Rural Rd Suite C >Tempe, Arizona 85282 >480.967.3946 >"Home of the 2001 World Series Champion Arizona Diamondbacks" From dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com Tue Nov 6 06:42:50 2001 From: dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com (Douglas Quebbeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:30 2005 Subject: Rubber Restorer... Message-ID: <7A9BACCEF0171D4FB77019F5104CDD37225873@jeffserver.tegjeff.com> > > I bought a bottle of Rubber Rejuvient at Frys, Platen Cleaner is another > > similar thing. Keep in mind HP is the same company that said Toner > > cartridges can't be refilled, so when the wet cloth doesn't work, use the > > real stuff if you don't want to buy new parts or a printer. > > > > And also don't forget that HP put out a kit for applying sandpaper to > the feed wheel tires on one of the earlier DeskJets when the tires > glazed up. Yup... got one. It's a wonder I didn't start regarding them as "Hewlett-Backward DeskJams" sooner... -dq p.s. Hey Don, got the board, haven't tried it yet, will keep U posted From dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com Tue Nov 6 06:43:34 2001 From: dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com (Douglas Quebbeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:30 2005 Subject: Rubber Restorer... Message-ID: <7A9BACCEF0171D4FB77019F5104CDD37225874@jeffserver.tegjeff.com> > On Mon, 5 Nov 2001, Eric Dittman wrote: > > > > Carbon Tetrachloride is what Carbona spot remover was. I think they've > > > either outlawed it or just taken it from the market for consumers. > > > > I seem to remember carbon tetrachloride is a carcinogen. > > So they say. It also has some other nifty qualities like forming > phosgene gas (think WW-I) when applied to a hot surface. I believe it was banned along with CFCs... -dq From bpope at wordstock.com Tue Nov 6 06:48:36 2001 From: bpope at wordstock.com (Bryan Pope) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:30 2005 Subject: food In-Reply-To: <20011106005628.N88463-100000@lepton.subatomix.com> from "Jeffrey S. Sharp" at Nov 6, 01 01:02:42 am Message-ID: <200111061248.HAA08280@wordstock.com> > > On Tue, 6 Nov 2001, Chad Fernandez wrote: > > > Richard Erlacher wrote: > > > > > Americans have always been somewhat "strange" about their diet, > > > > How? I've never seen anything that I thought was strange. > > Gravy. Gravy is pretty strange when you consider what goes into it. > hmmm.... Poutine anyone? ;-) Bryan From dittman at dittman.net Tue Nov 6 06:52:11 2001 From: dittman at dittman.net (Eric Dittman) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:30 2005 Subject: Rubber Restorer... In-Reply-To: from "Don Maslin" at Nov 05, 2001 09:25:15 PM Message-ID: <200111061252.fA6CqBa21898@narnia.int.dittman.net> > > > Carbon Tetrachloride is what Carbona spot remover was. I think they've > > > either outlawed it or just taken it from the market for consumers. > > > > I seem to remember carbon tetrachloride is a carcinogen. > > So they say. It also has some other nifty qualities like forming > phosgene gas (think WW-I) when applied to a hot surface. I wonder how many accidental poisonings occurred? I remember old chemistry sets came with sodium ferrocyanide. The bottles all said "DO NOT MIX WITH ACID" with no explanation given, which probably lead to a few children trying it to see what happens. Fortunately the acids available in the chemistry sets weren't very concentrated, as a strong acid mixed with sodium ferrocyanide can produce cyanide gas, esp. when the solution is exposed to heat or direct sunlight. Also fortunate is the bond between the iron and the cyanide in sodium ferrocyanide is very strong. I wonder if children's chemistry sets still come with all the interesting chemicals? -- Eric Dittman dittman@dittman.net Check out the DEC Enthusiasts Club at http://www.dittman.net/ From bpope at wordstock.com Tue Nov 6 06:53:58 2001 From: bpope at wordstock.com (Bryan Pope) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:30 2005 Subject: Classic Gaming Collections In-Reply-To: <00b401c16651$6c7b7960$b9711fd1@default> from "John R. Keys Jr." at Nov 5, 01 05:08:34 pm Message-ID: <200111061253.HAA09400@wordstock.com> What?! No Vectrex?! ;-) > > I for one have enlarged my gaming collection since it's getting harder > to collect S100 and other older computer items. Every where I go now > people tell me that they can get more on eBay than my offer. Some have > called me back after trying to sell their items with no luck on eBay. > Back to the gaming items I now have almost every Sega console, one each > GameBoy series, both Atari 2600's, Atari 5200, and 7800, The Pong, What do you mean by "both Atari 2600's"? There were more then two... There was the 4-switch, 6-switch, junior, sears telegames... maybe more.. > Intellvision's 3 different models, Atari 400 & 800, Vic20, various C64 > models, various other Atari models in the XL series, a Bally, TI99/4's > various models, many handheld models like the NOMAD, GameGear, and > others, Coleco Adam, VideoBrain, and many other systems plus tons of > game software and cartridges. Someday I will have a complete list on > the web and the units on display. Nice list ..! :D Bryan From dittman at dittman.net Tue Nov 6 06:52:47 2001 From: dittman at dittman.net (Eric Dittman) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:30 2005 Subject: VAXserver question In-Reply-To: from "One Without Reason" at Nov 06, 2001 12:26:48 AM Message-ID: <200111061252.fA6Cqll21906@narnia.int.dittman.net> > Hi. I am trying to get four VAXserver 3100's working. However, when I > try to boot from my RRD42 (it is in 512 mode), it gives me an error > DEVOFFLINE. I have tried more than one RRD42 with more than one > machine. I need help ASAP. Thanks. What are the SCSI IDs of the RRD42 drives and the 3100 systems? -- Eric Dittman dittman@dittman.net Check out the DEC Enthusiasts Club at http://www.dittman.net/ From rhblakeman at kih.net Tue Nov 6 06:56:09 2001 From: rhblakeman at kih.net (Russ Blakeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:30 2005 Subject: Rubber Restorer... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Alright! I need to get some to clean my neighbor's radiator :-) -> -----Original Message----- -> Sent: Monday, November 05, 2001 11:25 PM -> To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org -> Subject: Re: Rubber Restorer... -> On Mon, 5 Nov 2001, Eric Dittman wrote: -> -> > > Carbon Tetrachloride is what Carbona spot remover was. I -> think they've -> > > either outlawed it or just taken it from the market for consumers. -> > -> > I seem to remember carbon tetrachloride is a carcinogen. -> -> So they say. It also has some other nifty qualities like forming -> phosgene gas (think WW-I) when applied to a hot surface. -> -> - don -> -> > -- -> > Eric Dittman -> > dittman@dittman.net -> > Check out the DEC Enthusiasts Club at http://www.dittman.net/ -> > -> -> From rhblakeman at kih.net Tue Nov 6 06:56:12 2001 From: rhblakeman at kih.net (Russ Blakeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:30 2005 Subject: Rubber Restorer... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: and a slip-in paper separator repair kit that adds a new thin pad to the existing one without the need to open the unit (maninly while in warranty) on the L series printers. -> On Mon, 5 Nov 2001, Mike Ford wrote: -> -> > >HP recommends a plain old water (a damp cloth) to clean -> printer rollers. I -> > -> > >>Does anyone know where I can get "Rubber Restorer"? I know -> it comes in a -> > >>spray. -> > -> > I bought a bottle of Rubber Rejuvient at Frys, Platen Cleaner -> is another -> > similar thing. Keep in mind HP is the same company that said Toner -> > cartridges can't be refilled, so when the wet cloth doesn't -> work, use the -> > real stuff if you don't want to buy new parts or a printer. -> > -> -> And also don't forget that HP put out a kit for applying sandpaper to -> the feed wheel tires on one of the earlier DeskJets when the tires -> glazed up. -> - don -> -> -> From rhblakeman at kih.net Tue Nov 6 06:56:14 2001 From: rhblakeman at kih.net (Russ Blakeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:30 2005 Subject: Rubber Restorer... In-Reply-To: <005f01c16672$a8949820$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> Message-ID: Plain old lighter fluid works well too and has benzine in it. Not sure if they still use it but benzine used to be known as dry cleaning fluid. -> -----Original Message----- -> Benzene or other rubber-cement thinners might work about as well -> as anything on -> the rubber rollers. I use the SpotShot becuse it's readily -> available, and I -> doubt I'll use it often enough to hurt things much. The main -> purpose for which -> I use it, other than removing routine spills from my -> light-colored carpeting, is -> removing those stick-on labels and price tags that come off with such -> difficulty. It works very well for that, though it smells very -> unpleasant. -> -> Dick From dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com Tue Nov 6 07:31:42 2001 From: dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com (Douglas Quebbeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:30 2005 Subject: food Message-ID: <7A9BACCEF0171D4FB77019F5104CDD37225875@jeffserver.tegjeff.com> > I never thought hotdogs strange.. They're pretty straightforward, > take lips, assholes, and add the FDA approved 0.5% of rat feces. > > Oh, add the casing. Good wieners use the intestines... yum, intestines! -dq From dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com Tue Nov 6 07:34:47 2001 From: dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com (Douglas Quebbeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:30 2005 Subject: food Message-ID: <7A9BACCEF0171D4FB77019F5104CDD37225876@jeffserver.tegjeff.com> > > On Tue, 6 Nov 2001, Chad Fernandez wrote: > > > > > Richard Erlacher wrote: > > > > > > > Americans have always been somewhat "strange" about their diet, > > > > > > How? I've never seen anything that I thought was strange. > > > > Gravy. Gravy is pretty strange when you consider what goes into it. > > > > hmmm.... Poutine anyone? ;-) I hear Burger Kings carry Poutine now... but I'll bet the curds are squeezed out of a bottle ... 'Tis enough to make haggis grow legs... -dq From dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com Tue Nov 6 07:36:59 2001 From: dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com (Douglas Quebbeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:30 2005 Subject: Rubber Restorer... Message-ID: <7A9BACCEF0171D4FB77019F5104CDD37225877@jeffserver.tegjeff.com> > I wonder if children's chemistry sets still come with all the > interesting chemicals? For the most part, no... you have to buy the old chemistry sets if you want those (many vintage chemistry sets trade on E-Bay). -dq From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Tue Nov 6 07:35:36 2001 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (Allison) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:30 2005 Subject: CPU design at the gate level Message-ID: <000c01c166c7$ec4bcc00$6b7b7b7b@ajp> Yes but I was working on the presumption of xN=8 and for every permutation of 8bit A and 8bit B. Allison -----Original Message----- From: Greg Ewing To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org Date: Monday, November 05, 2001 11:41 PM Subject: Re: CPU design at the gate level >ajp166 : > >> Whats >> problemtic is that the ALU must do about 8-16 different operations >> so that would be at least a 512kN part or larger. > >Not that big, surely? 4 A inputs, 4 B inputs, carry input, >4 function select inputs comes to 13 inputs, so 8KxN >should be enough. > >Greg Ewing, Computer Science Dept, +--------------------------------------+ >University of Canterbury, | A citizen of NewZealandCorp, a | >Christchurch, New Zealand | wholly-owned subsidiary of USA Inc. | >greg@cosc.canterbury.ac.nz +--------------------------------------+ > From rhblakeman at kih.net Tue Nov 6 07:48:22 2001 From: rhblakeman at kih.net (Russ Blakeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:30 2005 Subject: Rubber Restorer... In-Reply-To: <200111061252.fA6CqBa21898@narnia.int.dittman.net> Message-ID: Hard to find anymore unless you go to a large chain or specialty shop but they have the chemicals that are needed for some showy experiments liek sticking broken glass together, turning two clear liquids to a red, etc but most of the "real cool" things like sulfur, pot. ferrocyanide, hydrochloric/sulfuric acids (or hydrogen peroxide for that) are all removed. About the most dangerous now is 5% acetic acid (vinegar) and sodium bicarb. Ooh that's neat....lets do what happens inside dad's gut when he takes alka selter after eating too much. BORING. My set (many parts still in a box at my parent's) had neat stuff that I could make gunpowder, eat through metal with a semi strong acid, etc. It was a Gilbert branded set - wonder if they're even in business yet? FWIW my cousin never hurt himself as a kid with all the crap we mixed - he waited until he was dault and while bleaching the toilet (poured bleach in the water and let it sit - we all do this) he was done mopping his kitchen and wanted to dump the old AMMONIA water... Duh-duh-duh...duh-duh-duh-duh-daaa (just the facts ma'am) - he had chemical burns to his eyes, nose throat and lungs. Took nearly a year for most of it to heal completely and they said that if he had gone to take a nap and the chlorine gas built up it could have killed him. -> -----Original Message----- -> I remember old chemistry sets came with sodium ferrocyanide. The -> bottles all said "DO NOT MIX WITH ACID" with no explanation given, -> which probably lead to a few children trying it to see what happens. -> -> Fortunately the acids available in the chemistry sets weren't very -> concentrated, as a strong acid mixed with sodium ferrocyanide can -> produce cyanide gas, esp. when the solution is exposed to heat or -> direct sunlight. Also fortunate is the bond between the iron and -> the cyanide in sodium ferrocyanide is very strong. -> -> I wonder if children's chemistry sets still come with all the -> interesting chemicals? -> -- -> Eric Dittman -> dittman@dittman.net -> Check out the DEC Enthusiasts Club at http://www.dittman.net/ -> From rhblakeman at kih.net Tue Nov 6 08:13:40 2001 From: rhblakeman at kih.net (Russ Blakeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:30 2005 Subject: Rubber Restorer... In-Reply-To: <7A9BACCEF0171D4FB77019F5104CDD37225877@jeffserver.tegjeff.com> Message-ID: And many of the classic sets have replacements for the original chemicals. A friend bought a 1965 chemistry set and in place of phenothalien (water glass) it was just plain water, as had the sulfur been filled with dry mustard and confectioner's sugar mixed. No telling what else... -> -----Original Message----- -> From: owner-classiccmp@classiccmp.org -> [mailto:owner-classiccmp@classiccmp.org]On Behalf Of Douglas Quebbeman -> Sent: Tuesday, November 06, 2001 7:37 AM -> To: 'classiccmp@classiccmp.org' -> Subject: RE: Rubber Restorer... -> -> -> > I wonder if children's chemistry sets still come with all the -> > interesting chemicals? -> -> For the most part, no... you have to buy the old chemistry -> sets if you want those (many vintage chemistry sets trade -> on E-Bay). -> -> -dq -> From Robert_Feldman at jdedwards.com Tue Nov 6 08:44:45 2001 From: Robert_Feldman at jdedwards.com (Feldman, Robert) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:30 2005 Subject: OT: Chemistry Sets (was RE: Rubber Restorer...) Message-ID: Yeah, chem sets are pretty tame now :( -- can't do many real reactions other than make C02 from bicarb. My father was a chemist and added many chemicals to the Gilbert set we had (more than 10 years old, so somewhat on topic). I do shudder a bit to think of some of things we did, though, like playing with big globs of mercury in our hands. BTW, water glass is Sodium Silicate, not phenothalien. And carbon tet, not benzene, was dry cleaning fluid. As kids, my brothers and I used carbon tet in killing jars to gas butterflys for our collection. It is banned in most places now, and benzene use is severely restricted, as it too is a strong carcinogen and bad for your internal organs. -----Original Message----- From: Russ Blakeman [mailto:rhblakeman@kih.net] Sent: Tuesday, November 06, 2001 8:14 AM To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org Subject: RE: Rubber Restorer... And many of the classic sets have replacements for the original chemicals. A friend bought a 1965 chemistry set and in place of phenothalien (water glass) it was just plain water, as had the sulfur been filled with dry mustard and confectioner's sugar mixed. No telling what else... -> -----Original Message----- -> From: owner-classiccmp@classiccmp.org -> [mailto:owner-classiccmp@classiccmp.org]On Behalf Of Douglas Quebbeman -> Sent: Tuesday, November 06, 2001 7:37 AM -> To: 'classiccmp@classiccmp.org' -> Subject: RE: Rubber Restorer... -> -> -> > I wonder if children's chemistry sets still come with all the -> > interesting chemicals? -> -> For the most part, no... you have to buy the old chemistry -> sets if you want those (many vintage chemistry sets trade -> on E-Bay). -> -> -dq -> From mrbill at mrbill.net Tue Nov 6 09:43:30 2001 From: mrbill at mrbill.net (Bill Bradford) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:30 2005 Subject: Goodwill Computer Store Austin, TX In-Reply-To: <3BE7014B.19478.142D8EE@localhost> References: <20011104235412.S85476-100000@lepton.subatomix.com> <3BE7014B.19478.142D8EE@localhost> Message-ID: <20011106094330.A12192@mrbill.net> On Mon, Nov 05, 2001 at 09:14:51PM -0600, David Williams wrote: > Bill, > I didn't get to stop by there this trip. Did they just move all of them > out or have they closed off the whole back of the store? I guess I'm > asking if they have the back section setup where they sold the > classic systems still? > David They've got some 8bit stuff "out front" now. They've got the doors to the back room closed, so I dont know what they've done with everything that was back there. Bill -- Bill Bradford mrbill@mrbill.net Austin, TX From mythtech at Mac.com Tue Nov 6 09:48:12 2001 From: mythtech at Mac.com (Chris) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:30 2005 Subject: I-Modem protocol Message-ID: I kind of half asked this once before, but it was stuck in on another thread, so I think it was overlooked. Does anyone have info on how to use the I-Modem protocol for data transfers? (that's Eye-Modem). All I have been able to find is that it is a protocol designed for long distance, slow connections. So it sends a packet, and doesn't wait for a check. Rather it just sends all packets, and at the end, the recipient sends back a list of bad packets to be resent. The idea is, it will be faster when sent over a high latency connection. I *think* the protocol was created by John Friel. I base that off the little info I was able to find thru multiple different online searches (google being the most useful). What I am looking for is the specs needed to write an implimentation of it. I have a system that can only send files via i-modem, and I want to write a new program to talk to the server. Right now I use Procomm Plus 1.1b since it is the only application that I have found that supports imodem. I would like to write a custom front end to the system, so I can make access safer, easier, and more automated. If anyone has specs, or source code for imodem they can send me, it woud be very helpful. Thanks -chris From mythtech at Mac.com Tue Nov 6 10:12:32 2001 From: mythtech at Mac.com (Chris) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:30 2005 Subject: Zenith Data Systems Z-386 SX/20 Free in NJ Message-ID: If anyone wants it, I have a Zenith Data Systems Z-386 SX/20 available for free in Ridgewood, New Jersey. You have to come pick it up (or offer me enough to make it worth my time to pack it for shipping). It appears to work just fine. It is missing one of the two 3.5" drive slot covers. It is currently configured with a 40mb HD, a 360k 5.25" floppy, 2mb of RAM, and CGA video. I can't figure out how to change the setup, so it is useless to me (if I can't at least get it to accept a 3.5" drive, I can't use it). It is up for grabs, but like I said, I don't want to take the time to pack it up unless I am getting money or something good in trade. It can be picked up in Ridgewood, NJ (North East NJ). I am only going to keep it for a day or two to see if it gets claimed, after that, there won't be enough left of it to claim. I can store it longer for someone as long as you tell me roughly when you will pick it up. -chris From COURYHOUSE at aol.com Tue Nov 6 10:21:20 2001 From: COURYHOUSE at aol.com (COURYHOUSE@aol.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:30 2005 Subject: EDS/Bernoulli Disks Revisited Message-ID: We have a stack of these at the museum! We will keep one for the magnetic media collection but the others can go! Ed Sharpe archivist for SMECC > Subj:RE: EDS/Bernoulli Disks Revisited > Date:11/6/01 9:03:17 AM US Mountain Standard Time > From:cbajpai@mediaone.net > To:classiccmp@classiccmp.org, bobrobs@earthlink.net, > Microscopy@sparc5.microscopy.com > Sent from the Internet > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > The Microscopy ListServer -- Sponsor: The Microscopy Society of America > To Subscribe/Unsubscribe -- Send Email to ListServer@MSA.Microscopy.Com > On-Line Help http://www.msa.microscopy.com/MicroscopyListserver/FAQ.html > -----------------------------------------------------------------------. > > > I saw a hand full of this media that VCF East...Did they get sold? > I'm not sure who the seller was...maybe Tom Owad? > -Chandra > > > -----Original Message----- > >From: owner-classiccmp@classiccmp.org > [mailto:owner-classiccmp@classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of John Foust > Sent: Monday, November 05, 2001 9:50 PM > To: Bob Roberts; Microscopy@sparc5.microscopy.com > Cc: classiccmp@classiccmp.org > Subject: Re: EDS/Bernoulli Disks Revisited > > > > I'll forward this to the Classic Computer Collector's > mailing list. Someone there certainly will have a lead > on some of these. > > - John > > At 10:18 AM 11/5/01 -0700, Bob Roberts wrote: > >A customer of mine has a Kevex Delta II analyzer (circa 1989) equipped > >with the 8 inch/10 Mb Bernoulli disk drives. He would like to continue > >using this media for the time being but is unable to locate any of > >these disks for data storage. Thermo Noran is apparently unable to > >upgrade his drives to something more current. > > > >If anyone has these disks laying around, and would like to sell them, > >please contact me off-line. Thank you. > > > >Bob Roberts > >EM Lab Services, Inc. > >2409 S. Rural Rd Suite C > >Tempe, Arizona 85282 > >480.967.3946 > >"Home of the 2001 World Series Champion Arizona Diamondbacks" > > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20011106/420a19f3/attachment.html From techno at dsuper.net Tue Nov 6 11:23:08 2001 From: techno at dsuper.net (Doug Taylor) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:30 2005 Subject: ISIS & CP/M for MDS 225 series3 Message-ID: <002b01c166e7$bb7e9c40$e94694d1@dsuper.net> Hello folks... I've been trying to get an operating system for my MDS 225 series 3 on 8" disks. I've read that it uses ISIS (Intel System Implementation Supervisor) and that it can also run CP/M (GENERIC) according to Joe's web site http://www.intellistar.net/~rigdonj/mds.htm However, I've tried to email joe at rigdonj@intellistar.net But the mail bounces as undelivered. Any ideas? Doug Taylor (Techno) Sysop of the "Dead On Arrival BBS" Telnet://doabbs.dynip.com http://www-mtl.look.ca/~techno techno@dsuper.net From gwynp at artware.qc.ca Tue Nov 6 10:48:52 2001 From: gwynp at artware.qc.ca (gwynp@artware.qc.ca) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:30 2005 Subject: food In-Reply-To: <200111061248.HAA08280@wordstock.com> Message-ID: On 06-Nov-2001 Bryan Pope wrote: >> >> On Tue, 6 Nov 2001, Chad Fernandez wrote: >> >> > Richard Erlacher wrote: >> > >> > > Americans have always been somewhat "strange" about their diet, >> > >> > How? I've never seen anything that I thought was strange. >> >> Gravy. Gravy is pretty strange when you consider what goes into it. >> > > hmmm.... Poutine anyone? ;-) POUTINE! POUTINE! POUTINE! MMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMM! -Philip From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Tue Nov 6 10:56:23 2001 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (Allison) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:30 2005 Subject: ISIS & CP/M for MDS 225 series3 Message-ID: <001201c166e3$fb12b0c0$6b7b7b7b@ajp> Standard CP/M on 8" is the right bios but.... The right media as the MDS controller was SD/D2... single density(normal ibm 128 byte sectors) and D2 was double density by m2fm and incompatable with everything except Intel. So you need another working intel box user. Allison -----Original Message----- From: Doug Taylor To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org Date: Tuesday, November 06, 2001 11:42 AM Subject: ISIS & CP/M for MDS 225 series3 >Hello folks... >I've been trying to get an operating system for my MDS 225 series 3 on 8" >disks. >I've read that it uses ISIS (Intel System Implementation Supervisor) >and that it can also run CP/M (GENERIC) according to Joe's web site >http://www.intellistar.net/~rigdonj/mds.htm >However, I've tried to email joe at >rigdonj@intellistar.net >But the mail bounces as undelivered. >Any ideas? > > >Doug Taylor (Techno) >Sysop of the "Dead On Arrival BBS" >Telnet://doabbs.dynip.com >http://www-mtl.look.ca/~techno >techno@dsuper.net > > From Thomas.J.Lynch at usa.xerox.com Tue Nov 6 11:01:32 2001 From: Thomas.J.Lynch at usa.xerox.com (Lynch, Thomas J) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:30 2005 Subject: About those PDP-11 /83 's Message-ID: <7C9F0BB3FDC5D3119C5900805FC73615574CD8@usa0207ms1.eng.mc.xerox.com> Last week I wrote that I had a coule PDP-11 /83 's some people respoded with interests of various sorts Here's what I can see that is inside the boxes: system ID FRONT SIDE BACK SIDE 10597 RA-82 in drawer H3100 unit with ~ 4 ft tall in the six bays-three are empty 4 ethernet-like connectors& TK 70 tape drive 8 DB-25 connectors + others module with 4 HDD-type buttons H7660C (PSU?) module with 2 HDD-type buttons: 874-D 10595 RA-82 in drawer H3100 unit with ~4 ft tall in the six bays-three are empty 4 ethernet-like connectors& TK 70 tape drive 8 DB-25 connectors + others module with 4 HDD-type buttons H7660C (PSU?) module with 2 HDD-type buttons: 874-D 10596 RA-82 in drawer H3100 unit with ~4 ft tall in the six bays-three are empty 4 ethernet-like connectors& TK 70 tape drive 8 DB-25 connectors + others module with 4 HDD-type buttons H7660C (PSU?) module with 2 HDD-type buttons: 874-D 80-22593-01 module xxxxx RA-81 RA-60 AA ~ 4 ft tall RA-82 RA-60 CA RA-60 H7660A (PSU?) H7660C (PSU?) 874-D SA482 #1 3each HDD-like modules 3each H7660C (PSU?) modules over with lighted push buttons; 881A module 5 ft. tall 0ne empty bay Unidentifiable module SA482 #2 3each HDD-like modules 3each H7660C (PSU?) modules over with lighted push buttons; 881A module 5 ft. tall 0ne empty bay Unidentifiable module Any information as to what these are, etc. would be appreciated. We'll be moving them today with a bunch of other stuff [deadlines, deadlines, you know], and probably not find them again until week end. I'm hoping we can move them out next week. Thanks for your interest. tom tomsir@rochester.rr.com From dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com Tue Nov 6 11:10:47 2001 From: dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com (Douglas Quebbeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:31 2005 Subject: I-Modem protocol Message-ID: <7A9BACCEF0171D4FB77019F5104CDD37225879@jeffserver.tegjeff.com> > What I am looking for is the specs needed to write an implimentation of > it. I have a system that can only send files via i-modem, and I want to > write a new program to talk to the server. Right now I use Procomm Plus > 1.1b since it is the only application that I have found that supports > imodem. I would like to write a custom front end to the system, so I can > make access safer, easier, and more automated. > > If anyone has specs, or source code for imodem they can send me, it woud > be very helpful. This really is a tough one- it's possible some of the stand-alone transfer protocol modules might have implemented it, but didn't include any info in the docs... as a search yielded no more than you found. Two thoughts: The WildCat BBS has (IIRC) the IMODEM protocol; contact the WildCat prople and ask them for just that single module (they want about $800 for the BBS source code). Secondly... reverse engineering by setting up a second PC running any terminal emulator, try sending a file from the IMODEM-only device, surely it will respond to ACK/NAK... try NAKing some packets, ACK some others, dump the result, start hacking... Be sure to filter out the ACKs/NAKs you're sending from the dump, no need to confuse yourself... hth, -dq From cisin at xenosoft.com Tue Nov 6 11:40:49 2001 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin (XenoSoft)) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:31 2005 Subject: Rubber Restorer... In-Reply-To: <200111061252.fA6CqBa21898@narnia.int.dittman.net> Message-ID: On Tue, 6 Nov 2001, Eric Dittman wrote: > Fortunately the acids available in the chemistry sets weren't very > concentrated, But any kid knows that you can get some better acid out of the car battery. > I wonder if children's chemistry sets still come with all the > interesting chemicals? Not a chance. The more modern sets have half a dozen varieties of food-coloring (and "experiments" of watching it dissipate in a jug of water). There will never be any more great chemists who started out with a chemistry set. BTW, the primary maker of the sets (back when they were REAL) was GILBERT. They're the same folks who brought you Erector (R) sets. For the yery young here: Erector sets were a BIG box of small pieces of metal, with nuts, bolts, axles, gears, electric motor, etc. Still a great prototyping system. (One of the PcJRs that I sold at VCF came from IBM as a diskless system - the drive mounted in it was mounted with Erector set pieces.) But,.. in our litigious society obsessed with liability, they removed all of the swallowable sized pieces, all of the metal parts, all of the brass gears, the 110V motor, ... There will never be any more great mechanics/mechanical engineers who started out with an Erector set. Hmmm. Are there any "Electrical Sets" that are worthy of the name? -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin@xenosoft.com NOTE: My ISP is having some problems. If you have difficulty reaching me at this e-mail address, you can leave a message at: fcisin@merritt.edu cisin@info.sims.berkeley.edu From edick at idcomm.com Tue Nov 6 11:54:21 2001 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:31 2005 Subject: ISIS & CP/M for MDS 225 series3 References: <001201c166e3$fb12b0c0$6b7b7b7b@ajp> Message-ID: <001b01c166ec$10b50ba0$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> One thing to look for is a Western Digital 1781/83 controller. That's the one they advertised (I hope they shipped 'em) in their 1982 databook for use with M^2FM. The fact I've never seen one doesn't suggest you'll have much luck, but if you do see one, that's the one that handles that particular modulation. Dick ----- Original Message ----- From: "Allison" To: Sent: Tuesday, November 06, 2001 9:56 AM Subject: Re: ISIS & CP/M for MDS 225 series3 > Standard CP/M on 8" is the right bios but.... The right media > as the MDS controller was SD/D2... single density(normal ibm > 128 byte sectors) and D2 was double density by m2fm and > incompatable with everything except Intel. So you need > another working intel box user. > > Allison > > > > -----Original Message----- > From: Doug Taylor > To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org > Date: Tuesday, November 06, 2001 11:42 AM > Subject: ISIS & CP/M for MDS 225 series3 > > > >Hello folks... > >I've been trying to get an operating system for my MDS 225 series 3 on 8" > >disks. > >I've read that it uses ISIS (Intel System Implementation Supervisor) > >and that it can also run CP/M (GENERIC) according to Joe's web site > >http://www.intellistar.net/~rigdonj/mds.htm > >However, I've tried to email joe at > >rigdonj@intellistar.net > >But the mail bounces as undelivered. > >Any ideas? > > > > > >Doug Taylor (Techno) > >Sysop of the "Dead On Arrival BBS" > >Telnet://doabbs.dynip.com > >http://www-mtl.look.ca/~techno > >techno@dsuper.net > > > > > > From mikeford at socal.rr.com Tue Nov 6 11:59:28 2001 From: mikeford at socal.rr.com (Mike Ford) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:31 2005 Subject: Rubber Restorer... In-Reply-To: <200111061252.fA6CqBa21898@narnia.int.dittman.net> References: from "Don Maslin" at Nov 05, 2001 09:25:15 PM Message-ID: >I wonder if children's chemistry sets still come with all the >interesting chemicals? Nope, no potassium perchlorate, potassium nitrate, but plenty of sodium laurel sulfate. From pete at dunnington.u-net.com Tue Nov 6 10:56:48 2001 From: pete at dunnington.u-net.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:31 2005 Subject: OT: Chemistry Sets (was RE: Rubber Restorer...) In-Reply-To: "Feldman, Robert" "OT: Chemistry Sets (was RE: Rubber Restorer...)" (Nov 6, 7:44) References: Message-ID: <10111061656.ZM2818@mindy.dunnington.u-net.com> On Nov 6, 7:44, Feldman, Robert wrote: > do shudder a bit to think of some of things we did, though, like playing > with big globs of mercury in our hands. I still have a jar containing about 1/4 pint of the stuff :-) > BTW, water glass is Sodium Silicate, not phenothalien. And carbon tet, not > benzene, was dry cleaning fluid. Yup. But it's spelt "phenolphthalein". > As kids, my brothers and I used carbon tet > in killing jars to gas butterflys for our collection. It is banned in most > places now, and benzene use is severely restricted, as it too is a strong > carcinogen and bad for your internal organs. It's been banned here for 25 years or so. -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager University of York From DAW at yalepress3.unipress.yale.edu Tue Nov 6 13:10:15 2001 From: DAW at yalepress3.unipress.yale.edu (David Woyciesjes) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:31 2005 Subject: For Sale/Trade... 68K Macs... Message-ID: <9011A52E011ED311B4280004AC1BA6150146722C@yalepress3.unipress.yale.edu> Well, all the Macs are spoken for, just have to nail down some details... ...except the LC-II. Any takers on that? --- David A Woyciesjes --- C & IS Support Specialist --- Yale University Press --- mailto:david.woyciesjes@yale.edu --- (203) 432-0953 --- ICQ # - 905818 ! -----Original Message----- ! From: David Woyciesjes [mailto:DAW@yalepress3.unipress.yale.edu] ! Sent: Monday, November 05, 2001 10:43 AM ! To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org (E-mail) ! Subject: For Sale/Trade... 68K Macs... ! ! ! Pardon my Off Topic post, I know this isn't quite the ! right forum, ! but I'd like these to go to someone who'll appreciate them... ! ! - Mac LCII 6 MB RAM, 80 MB HDD, OS 7.6, missing battery (1/2 ! AA, 3.6 volt ! Lithium) ! - Mac SE/30, 8 MB RAM, 70 MB HDD, OS 7.1, Radius 64 KHz Full ! Page Display ! - Mac SE FDHD - Doesn't boot (yet) ! - Mac Classic II, 4 MB RAM, 140 MB HDD, OS 7.5 ! ! - No mice, keyboard or monitors... ! ! I can update the software some, and might have some other Apple ! software to go with them, from the Apple Service Source CD Set... ! Everything must go, ASAP. Moving from apartment to house soon... ! Make reasonable offer. ! ! --- David A Woyciesjes ! --- C & IS Support Specialist ! --- Yale University Press ! --- mailto:david.woyciesjes@yale.edu ! --- (203) 432-0953 ! --- ICQ # - 905818 ! From mythtech at Mac.com Tue Nov 6 13:14:25 2001 From: mythtech at Mac.com (Chris) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:31 2005 Subject: I-Modem protocol Message-ID: >Two thoughts: The WildCat BBS has (IIRC) the IMODEM protocol; contact >the WildCat prople and ask them for just that single module (they >want about $800 for the BBS source code). I'll give them a try, thanks. >Secondly... reverse engineering by setting up a second PC running >any terminal emulator, try sending a file from the IMODEM-only device, >surely it will respond to ACK/NAK... try NAKing some packets, ACK some >others, dump the result, start hacking... Humm... that's an idea. Lots of work, and maybe more than the project is worth, but certainly an idea I will keep in mind for a day when I get pissed off enough at the current interface. -chris From zmerch at 30below.com Tue Nov 6 13:47:50 2001 From: zmerch at 30below.com (Roger Merchberger) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:31 2005 Subject: Clearly OT (but what the hell...) (was: food In-Reply-To: References: <200111061248.HAA08280@wordstock.com> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20011106143744.02a67250@mail.30below.com> Rumor has it that gwynp@artware.qc.ca may have mentioned these words: >On 06-Nov-2001 Bryan Pope wrote: > >> > >> On Tue, 6 Nov 2001, Chad Fernandez wrote: > >> > >> > Richard Erlacher wrote: > >> > > >> > > Americans have always been somewhat "strange" about their diet, Yea, as in -> real food has to be "americani[sz]ed" and preprocessed thru Burger King et. al. before they'll eat it... Shame. We have 2 chinese restaurants in town, which both suck... (americani[sz]ed) and 1 greek restaurant, which is extremely good but don't serve enough (IMHO) choices in the way of greek food... They have gyros, kalamari, and a few other dishes & the rest - american. (damn good american, but american nonetheless...) :-( I'm continually begging them for new greek stuff - you can get a burger anywhere, after all - and I was *finally* greeted with something new this Saturday (don't recall the name, some type of lamb & beef dish with a baked pancake-like topping - started with an "M") and it was fantastic! [[ And my kids *love* kalamari & most everything else I make them try... ]] I am *not* a normal american... ;^> > >> > How? I've never seen anything that I thought was strange. > >> > >> Gravy. Gravy is pretty strange when you consider what goes into it. Gravy is *not* strange if you've ever had pickled pigs feet... after that, you know that gravy can be made with many things other than flour or corn starch... ;-) > hmmm.... Poutine anyone? ;-) >POUTINE! POUTINE! POUTINE! Awrighty -- educate this idiotic american... what's Poutine? (Oh, and as an aside, what's Haggis?) Thanks, Roger "Merch" Merchberger From jfoust at threedee.com Tue Nov 6 13:35:39 2001 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:31 2005 Subject: I-Modem protocol In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <4.3.2.7.0.20011106133522.023871d0@pc> At 10:48 AM 11/6/01 -0500, Chris wrote: >I *think* the protocol was created by John Friel. Looks like he's still at http://www.forbin.net/ . - John From dittman at dittman.net Tue Nov 6 13:54:21 2001 From: dittman at dittman.net (Eric Dittman) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:31 2005 Subject: Rubber Restorer... In-Reply-To: from "Mike Ford" at Nov 06, 2001 09:59:28 AM Message-ID: <200111061954.fA6JsL523087@narnia.int.dittman.net> > >I wonder if children's chemistry sets still come with all the > >interesting chemicals? > > Nope, no potassium perchlorate, potassium nitrate, but plenty of sodium > laurel sulfate. No iodine crystals, either, I take it? NB: If you don't know what you could do with these you probably had a much safer childhood. -- Eric Dittman dittman@dittman.net Check out the DEC Enthusiasts Club at http://www.dittman.net/ From jhellige at earthlink.net Tue Nov 6 14:01:00 2001 From: jhellige at earthlink.net (Jeff Hellige) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:31 2005 Subject: Reconstructing "King's Quest" In-Reply-To: References: from Don Maslin at "Nov 5, 1 11:09:43 am" Message-ID: >Gee by now Cameron you should know I have everything, 720k drive piece of >cake, I may even have Kings Quest new in the box. I think the original releases of the various Sierra games like that included documentation-based copy protection. I've got the original 3.5" disks for quite a few of their games here myself, and I know that a lot of them initially shipped with both 3.5" and 5.25" disks in the single package. Unfortunately I've long since lost the docs for most of them. Jeff -- Home of the TRS-80 Model 2000 FAQ File http://www.cchaven.com http://www.geocities.com/siliconvalley/lakes/6757 From chris at mainecoon.com Tue Nov 6 14:14:54 2001 From: chris at mainecoon.com (Chris Kennedy) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:31 2005 Subject: Way OT: Haggis (was RE: Clearly OT (but what the hell...) (was: food In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20011106143744.02a67250@mail.30below.com> Message-ID: Roger Merchberger wrote: > Awrighty -- educate this idiotic american... what's Poutine? (Oh, and as an > aside, what's Haggis?) Poutine is a Quebecois interpretation of french fries with cheese curds and gravy. Haggis has been referred to as a "culinary disaster", but as a Scot I feel somewhat motivated to defend it -- although I have no idea quite how to go about doing so. Oatmeal and chopped sheep sweetbreads stuffed into a sheep's stomach and boiled. Frequently served for breakfast :P -- Chris Kennedy chris@mainecoon.com http://www.mainecoon.com PGP fingerprint: 4E99 10B6 7253 B048 6685 6CBC 55E1 20A3 108D AB97 From jhellige at earthlink.net Tue Nov 6 14:21:25 2001 From: jhellige at earthlink.net (Jeff Hellige) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:31 2005 Subject: Classic Gaming Collections In-Reply-To: <200111061253.HAA09400@wordstock.com> References: <200111061253.HAA09400@wordstock.com> Message-ID: >What do you mean by "both Atari 2600's"? There were more then two... > >There was the 4-switch, 6-switch, junior, sears telegames... maybe more.. I believe the FAQ lists a total of nine 2600 varients of all kinds, including the Japan-only 2800. Jeff -- Home of the TRS-80 Model 2000 FAQ File http://www.cchaven.com http://www.geocities.com/siliconvalley/lakes/6757 From jhellige at earthlink.net Tue Nov 6 14:23:12 2001 From: jhellige at earthlink.net (Jeff Hellige) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:31 2005 Subject: Rubber Restorer... In-Reply-To: <7A9BACCEF0171D4FB77019F5104CDD37225877@jeffserver.tegjeff.com> References: <7A9BACCEF0171D4FB77019F5104CDD37225877@jeffserver.tegjeff.com> Message-ID: > > I wonder if children's chemistry sets still come with all the >> interesting chemicals? > >For the most part, no... you have to buy the old chemistry >sets if you want those (many vintage chemistry sets trade >on E-Bay). Which then brings up the legality of shipping the set using the USPS to the new owner. Jeff -- Home of the TRS-80 Model 2000 FAQ File http://www.cchaven.com http://www.geocities.com/siliconvalley/lakes/6757 From mmcfadden at cmh.edu Tue Nov 6 14:27:13 2001 From: mmcfadden at cmh.edu (McFadden, Mike) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:31 2005 Subject: One-off vs. One-of (was Re: CPU design at the gate level) Message-ID: Of the instances I know of most one-off's never were from an assembly line just attempts to change or demonstrate a concept. The R&D group I worked with always was producing prototypes and proof-of-concept devices. The proof-of-concept units were mostly breadboard style with wires and components in any order and not in any form factor. A prototype was then constructed, sometimes milled of plastic or aluminum, it mimicked the final units appearance. The prototypes went through several interations to make a manufacturable model that could be made within the cost desired. Then the manufacturing engineers came in and tried to make it repairable and assembleable. The whole process is currently much compressed with the manufacturing engineers included from the beginning to reduce cost and time-to-market. Our group made medical microbiology devices designed by aerospace engineers, way overengineered, and with more feedback sensors than you could believe. We started out with PDP 11/05 , then migrated to 11/04. They eventually wanted to replace our PDP-11/04, with VT52, based computer systems with homegrown computer, terminal, and printer. Never implemented. Mike mmcfadden@cmh.edu -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20011106/4d837e0e/attachment.html From rhblakeman at kih.net Tue Nov 6 14:36:27 2001 From: rhblakeman at kih.net (Russ Blakeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:31 2005 Subject: Chemistry Sets (was RE: Rubber Restorer...) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: You're right in that respect but the local drycleaners used benzine for removing certain spots before full cleaning. I had the carbon tetrachloride and pheno mixed up, good thing the makers of Ex-Lax don't have them backwards huh? -> -----Original Message----- -> From: owner-classiccmp@classiccmp.org -> [mailto:owner-classiccmp@classiccmp.org]On Behalf Of Feldman, Robert -> Sent: Tuesday, November 06, 2001 8:45 AM -> To: 'classiccmp@classiccmp.org' -> Subject: OT: Chemistry Sets (was RE: Rubber Restorer...) -> -> -> Yeah, chem sets are pretty tame now :( -- can't do many real -> reactions other -> than make C02 from bicarb. My father was a chemist and added -> many chemicals -> to the Gilbert set we had (more than 10 years old, so somewhat -> on topic). I -> do shudder a bit to think of some of things we did, though, like playing -> with big globs of mercury in our hands. -> -> BTW, water glass is Sodium Silicate, not phenothalien. And -> carbon tet, not -> benzene, was dry cleaning fluid. As kids, my brothers and I used -> carbon tet -> in killing jars to gas butterflys for our collection. It is -> banned in most -> places now, and benzene use is severely restricted, as it too is a strong -> carcinogen and bad for your internal organs. -> -> -----Original Message----- -> From: Russ Blakeman [mailto:rhblakeman@kih.net] -> Sent: Tuesday, November 06, 2001 8:14 AM -> To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org -> Subject: RE: Rubber Restorer... -> -> -> And many of the classic sets have replacements for the original -> chemicals. A -> friend bought a 1965 chemistry set and in place of phenothalien (water -> glass) it was just plain water, as had the sulfur been filled with dry -> mustard and confectioner's sugar mixed. No telling what else... -> -> -> -----Original Message----- -> -> From: owner-classiccmp@classiccmp.org -> -> [mailto:owner-classiccmp@classiccmp.org]On Behalf Of Douglas Quebbeman -> -> Sent: Tuesday, November 06, 2001 7:37 AM -> -> To: 'classiccmp@classiccmp.org' -> -> Subject: RE: Rubber Restorer... -> -> -> -> -> -> > I wonder if children's chemistry sets still come with all the -> -> > interesting chemicals? -> -> -> -> For the most part, no... you have to buy the old chemistry -> -> sets if you want those (many vintage chemistry sets trade -> -> on E-Bay). -> -> -> -> -dq -> -> -> From vcf at vintage.org Tue Nov 6 14:39:11 2001 From: vcf at vintage.org (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:31 2005 Subject: Apple 11 c Message-ID: Please contact Phyllis directly if you are interested in this computer. Reply-to: saffta@mediaone.net ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Mon, 5 Nov 2001 10:28:13 -0500 From: Phyllis Cohen/Promotivation Concepts To: donate@vintage.org Subject: Apple 11 c We have an Apple 11C w/monitor & modem. Have you any interest? A prompt response will be appreciated or my husband is tossing it this week. Phyllis Cohen Promotivation Concepts ASI# 301435 84 Cynthia Road Newton MA 02459 tel: 617-964-1315 fax: 617-964-1363 Saffta@mediaone.net Phyllis@promotivation.com -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org From erd_6502 at yahoo.com Tue Nov 6 14:54:45 2001 From: erd_6502 at yahoo.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:31 2005 Subject: External floppies (was Re: hard-sector 5 1/4 disk) In-Reply-To: <841.708T1150T884571optimus@canit.se> Message-ID: <20011106205445.68877.qmail@web20104.mail.yahoo.com> --- Iggy Drougge wrote: > Well, I suppose that the only external floppies formy VAXstation and > DECstations would be SCSI ones, but that's probably the only computer > I've got which doesn't have them. We needed a 5.25" floppy at work in 1986 so we could cut distribution floppies to our customers with a MicroVAX, but no TK50 drive. We got an RUX50 controller and an external RX50 for our VAX-11/750. It was in the same external cabinet as an external TK50 for QBus MicroVAX (not the same for a uVAX-2000) or an external RD52/RD53/RD54. My fading neurons are feebly resonating that it was called a "Leprechaun box". In any case, it was a buffered version of the 34-pin raw disk signals, not SCSI or some other wiring scheme. __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Find a job, post your resume. http://careers.yahoo.com From foo at siconic.com Tue Nov 6 14:52:12 2001 From: foo at siconic.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:31 2005 Subject: hard-sector 5 1/4 disk In-Reply-To: <001d01c16624$bb2b08a0$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> Message-ID: On Mon, 5 Nov 2001, Richard Erlacher wrote: > I don't know what you Apple-Computer-Co pimps have been smoking ... > I've never said ANYTHING about products manufactured and sold after > 1990 or so, and I certainly have limited my comments to the products > using the Wozniak floppy disk interface, which is the basis of the > complaints I've had to deal with since 1978. That's not to say that That's the problem I have with your comments...the fact that they are so very wrong and invalid. Like I said, I wish you would explicitly limit your comments to being your opinion and not insisting on stating them as "facts". > I'll repeat, that I find the Apple disk interface of the type > associated with the Apple][ family to be ridiculously fragile, > requiring extensive precautions in day-to-day use and extensive > maintenance on a frequent (weekly) basis in order to make them at all > useful. That's a disappointment because technology available at the > same time these devices became popular worked MUCH better, though > people wanting to buy fully integrated systems which the Apple > "computers" of the time were marketed to be, weren't willing to pay > the price, hence, were stuck with the Apple product instead. > Now, as for the post 1985 products, all of you Microsoft-haters ought > to remember how Apple dealt with its user base during the Lisa and > early MAC years, whenever you disparage M$ (not to defend these > practices ... ) for its distribution of different OS API's to > different software vendors, depending on the "deal" that was made. Ok, they both have bad policies with regards to their API. It's just that MS is excessively more egregious about it. > All this stems from the fact that back in the '80's, if even the > teensiest thing went wrong in the Apple]['s interaction with its own > FD subsystem, the Apple][ went "TILT" and unless you knew things not > yet published, you had no option but to restart and lose your current > set of working data. What's more, if you were foolish enough to power > down the system with a diskette in the drive, or if you were foolish > enough to set the Apple up as shown in numerous installations, with > the monitor atop the 2 FDD's and that pair atop the Apple box, your > disk subsystem gave you what they (Apple Computer Co) figured you > deserved. Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org From edick at idcomm.com Tue Nov 6 14:57:52 2001 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:31 2005 Subject: Clearly OT (but what the hell...) (was: food References: <200111061248.HAA08280@wordstock.com> <5.1.0.14.2.20011106143744.02a67250@mail.30below.com> Message-ID: <005501c16705$b3c034a0$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> When my boys both were still well under 10 years old, they suddenly decided they didn't like mushrooms. At that time, I had alternate weekend visitatation, as their mother and I were divorced, and the last thing we normally did on Sunday evening before they were returned to their Mom was have dinner, so she didn't have to feed them right away. They claimed to like Chinese food, and, for some years, up until the younger was just a bit over 10, they routinely enjoyed a disk known as Moo Goo Gai Pan. AFAIK, Gai Pan is chicken, and Moo Goo is mushroom. There were, of course sufficient snow peas in the dish that they apparently went two or three years of eating this every other Sunday evening before one of them finally figured out it was mainly mushrooms. I couldn't get them to eat the stuff after that, even though they'd admittedly been enjoying it for years. I guess that's just the way kids are. Someone must have told them that eating mushrooms wasn't "cool." Dick ----- Original Message ----- From: "Roger Merchberger" To: Sent: Tuesday, November 06, 2001 12:47 PM Subject: Clearly OT (but what the hell...) (was: food > Rumor has it that gwynp@artware.qc.ca may have mentioned these words: > > >On 06-Nov-2001 Bryan Pope wrote: > > >> > > >> On Tue, 6 Nov 2001, Chad Fernandez wrote: > > >> > > >> > Richard Erlacher wrote: > > >> > > > >> > > Americans have always been somewhat "strange" about their diet, > > Yea, as in -> real food has to be "americani[sz]ed" and preprocessed thru > Burger King et. al. before they'll eat it... Shame. > > We have 2 chinese restaurants in town, which both suck... (americani[sz]ed) > and 1 greek restaurant, which is extremely good but don't serve enough > (IMHO) choices in the way of greek food... They have gyros, kalamari, and a > few other dishes & the rest - american. (damn good american, but american > nonetheless...) > :-( > I'm continually begging them for new greek stuff - you can get a burger > anywhere, after all - and I was *finally* greeted with something new this > Saturday (don't recall the name, some type of lamb & beef dish with a > baked pancake-like topping - started with an "M") and it was fantastic! > > [[ And my kids *love* kalamari & most everything else I make them try... ]] > > I am *not* a normal american... ;^> > > > >> > How? I've never seen anything that I thought was strange. > > >> > > >> Gravy. Gravy is pretty strange when you consider what goes into it. > > Gravy is *not* strange if you've ever had pickled pigs feet... after that, > you know that gravy can be made with many things other than flour or corn > starch... ;-) > > > hmmm.... Poutine anyone? ;-) > > >POUTINE! POUTINE! POUTINE! > > Awrighty -- educate this idiotic american... what's Poutine? (Oh, and as an > aside, what's Haggis?) > > Thanks, > Roger "Merch" Merchberger > > From pete at dunnington.u-net.com Tue Nov 6 15:02:54 2001 From: pete at dunnington.u-net.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:31 2005 Subject: Clearly OT (but what the hell...) (was: food In-Reply-To: Roger Merchberger "Clearly OT (but what the hell...) (was: food" (Nov 6, 14:47) References: <200111061248.HAA08280@wordstock.com> <5.1.0.14.2.20011106143744.02a67250@mail.30below.com> Message-ID: <10111062102.ZM2973@mindy.dunnington.u-net.com> On Nov 6, 14:47, Roger Merchberger wrote: > (Oh, and as an aside, what's Haggis?) Minced sheep's liver, lungs, and heart (the "pluck"), mixed with oatmeal, suet, and spices, sewn into the sheep's stomach bag and boiled. I grew up in Edinburgh with the stuff and I hate it, but many consider it a delicacy. Traditionally served with boiled mashed potatoes ("tatties") and turnip ("neeps") and on special occasions like Burn's Night with a glass of whisky. Search for "Macsween" on the web -- theirs are widely rated the best. I've only once seen it served for breakfast, thank goodness. I put that on a par with the person I saw eat two raw onions with a cup of coffee for breakfast. -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager University of York From pat at transarc.ibm.com Tue Nov 6 15:00:09 2001 From: pat at transarc.ibm.com (Pat Barron) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:31 2005 Subject: Semi-OT: Power Player? (was: Classic Gaming Collections) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Well, this is sort of off-topic, but the games in question are "classics"... There's this video game system I've seen called "Power Player", which claims to have 128 built-in "classic" games, described as games "similar to" old standbys like Ms. Pac-Man, Galaga, Stargate, etc., etc. I've seen it playing Galaga, and the game looks pretty authentic. There are a couple of street vendors in this area who are selling these systems for about $50.00. Anyone know anything about this system? All I really know (other than what I've mentioned already) is that eBay won't allow it to be sold on their site - I've seen several on eBay (and you can still find some in the completed auctions listings), but the very day I bid on one, eBay decided that this item was an "infringing" item, and cancelled all auctions selling this system. For a while, I was wondering if it was some kind of embedded 486 DOS system running MAME with a bunch of game ROM images installed. Anyone know anything more? Thanks, --Pat. From pete at dunnington.u-net.com Tue Nov 6 14:45:41 2001 From: pete at dunnington.u-net.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:31 2005 Subject: Clearly OT (but what the hell...) (was: food In-Reply-To: Roger Merchberger "Clearly OT (but what the hell...) (was: food" (Nov 6, 14:47) References: <200111061248.HAA08280@wordstock.com> <5.1.0.14.2.20011106143744.02a67250@mail.30below.com> Message-ID: <10111062045.ZM2958@mindy.dunnington.u-net.com> On Nov 6, 14:47, Roger Merchberger wrote: > and 1 greek restaurant, which is extremely good but don't serve enough > (IMHO) choices in the way of greek food... They have gyros, kalamari, and a > few other dishes & the rest - american. (damn good american, but american > nonetheless...) > :-( > I'm continually begging them for new greek stuff - you can get a burger > anywhere, after all - and I was *finally* greeted with something new this > Saturday (don't recall the name, some type of lamb & beef dish with a > baked pancake-like topping - started with an "M") and it was fantastic! Moussaka? Layers of minced[1] lamb and fried aubergines[2] with eggs, greek yoghurt[3], and baked. Mmm, very nice! I had some last night. [1] you'd probably call that ground lamb [2] eggplant [3] thick yoghurt made from sheep's milk -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager University of York From foo at siconic.com Tue Nov 6 14:57:53 2001 From: foo at siconic.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:31 2005 Subject: hard-sector 5 1/4 disk In-Reply-To: <000001c16642$cac271e0$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> Message-ID: On Mon, 5 Nov 2001, Richard Erlacher wrote: > However, there's an easily observable basis for the beliefs regarding > the Apple][ disk subsystem that I've put forth in this case, unlike > the erroneous conclusions that early 20th-century Americans had drawn > about diet. In the Dick Erlacher World of Factually Erroneous and Frivelous Opinions, perhaps. In the real world? Nein. > The Apple][ disk subsystem was made in order to offer drives with a > capacity advantage over its competitor, the TRS-80 single-density > 5-14" drives. I don't remember the details of the cost difference, I think your timeline is in error here. I believe the Apple Disk ][ was on the market before the TRS-80 disk drives. And at any rate, your analysis is, again, wrong. Apple offered disk drives because it was a good marketing move, and it just happened to store more data than Radio Shack's because Woz's design was elegant, clever, and superior. > but the main advantage to Apple was in that they built their own drive > electronics and cound benefit at the system level, cost-wise, from > every little thing they left out. First of all, they didn't have to Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org From foo at siconic.com Tue Nov 6 15:00:58 2001 From: foo at siconic.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:31 2005 Subject: Classic Gaming Collections In-Reply-To: <00b401c16651$6c7b7960$b9711fd1@default> Message-ID: On Mon, 5 Nov 2001, John R. Keys Jr. wrote: > each GameBoy series, both Atari 2600's, Atari 5200, and 7800, The ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ Hate to burst yer bubble, but there were a few variations of the Atari 2600: the 6-switch version, the 4-switch version, the black 4-switch version, the Sears Tele-Games OEM, and the 2600jr. Maybe a couple I'm forgetting. How about the Fairchild Channel F, the handheld Microvision, the Intellivision // and Intellivision ///, the NES Famicom... Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org From ernestls at home.com Tue Nov 6 15:05:31 2001 From: ernestls at home.com (Ernest) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:31 2005 Subject: Goodwill Computer Store Austin, TX In-Reply-To: <3BE7267B.29869.34E938@localhost> Message-ID: > Though I do covet some of the items in the museum, there is at > least one positive thing that > having it at Goodwill has over it being in the hands of a private > collector, and that is that the > items are available for many more people to "enjoy". Now they > might not get as much as > someone on this list who can "truely appreciate" it, but a great > many people have seen it and > had positive experiences. I think having something like this is > very good at raising the > awareness amongst people that these old computers aren't purely > boat anchors. A few of the > systems there were saved from the scrapper by the virtue of the > person seeing the museum > and donating versus junking the systems. That is a good point but doesn't it seem a little strange that an organization that is supposed to be focused on selling donated junk to help the poor would hold onto items that are clearly worth a bit of money for the purpose of display? Is that ethical? Are they developing a new focus? E. From foo at siconic.com Tue Nov 6 15:05:55 2001 From: foo at siconic.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:31 2005 Subject: Stacking Apple ][ stuff In-Reply-To: <20011106040854.FFKL29297.imf00bis.bellsouth.net@thegoodw> Message-ID: On Mon, 5 Nov 2001, Glen Goodwin wrote: > Proud new owner of Apple ][e (my first Apple product) wants to know: > what's wrong with stacking the drive unit and display on top of the > box? Nothing. Ignore him. Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org From foo at siconic.com Tue Nov 6 15:10:01 2001 From: foo at siconic.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:31 2005 Subject: Stacking Apple ][ stuff In-Reply-To: <003001c1667e$be991360$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> Message-ID: On Mon, 5 Nov 2001, Richard Erlacher wrote: > The monitor seems to interact with the drives when the monitor is > turned on. It depends, I suppose, on the monitor, but I've got the > IIe with the dual drive box between it and the color monitor and from > time to time, e.g. when I turn on the monitor while the computer has > been powered up but the monitor has been powered down, e.g. when I go > upstairs to get a sandwich or answer the doorbell, the drive runs up > and the diskette is partially unreadable afterward. Didn't you just get finished telling us in the last 10 messages on this topic that you threw out all your Apple ]'s??? > I'm told by more experienced Apple owners that it's a good idea to (a) > ground the disk drive boxes in the case of the old aluminum-cased > Apple][ drives and (b) put a sheet of grounded ferrous metal between > the monitor and drives. I don't know whether this helps, as I've > simply stopped turning off the monitor when I go away. I'm a highly experienced Apple ][ user (18 years and counting) and I've NEVER heard of this. Further, as I've already stated NUMEROUS times, THERE IS NO TRUTH TO THE ASSANINE RUMORS YOU INSIST ON PROMULGATING HERE! Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org From dpeschel at eskimo.com Tue Nov 6 15:19:35 2001 From: dpeschel at eskimo.com (Derek Peschel) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:31 2005 Subject: Rubber Restorer... In-Reply-To: ; from cisin@xenosoft.com on Tue, Nov 06, 2001 at 09:40:49AM -0800 References: <200111061252.fA6CqBa21898@narnia.int.dittman.net> Message-ID: <20011106131935.B4586@eskimo.eskimo.com> On Tue, Nov 06, 2001 at 09:40:49AM -0800, Fred Cisin (XenoSoft) wrote: > Erector sets were a BIG box of small pieces of metal, with nuts, bolts, > axles, gears, electric motor, etc. Still a great prototyping system. > (One of the PcJRs that I sold at VCF came from IBM as a diskless system - > the drive mounted in it was mounted with Erector set pieces.) Ha, you try to post off-topic messages and they become on-topic again. Several differential analyzers were built out of Meccano parts -- Meccano being the British version of the Erector set. You probably couldn't do it with just one box, though. http://www.maths.irl.cri.nz/history/contents.html http://www.maths.irl.cri.nz/history/analyser.jpg http://www.voyager.co.nz/~abe/NZ/earnz1.htm http://www.freenet.edmonton.ab.ca/meccano/mecint.html -- Derek From SUPRDAVE at aol.com Tue Nov 6 15:42:53 2001 From: SUPRDAVE at aol.com (SUPRDAVE@aol.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:31 2005 Subject: Stacking Apple ][ stuff Message-ID: In a message dated 11/6/2001 3:23:39 PM Central Standard Time, foo@siconic.com writes: > On Mon, 5 Nov 2001, Richard Erlacher wrote: > > > > The monitor seems to interact with the drives when the monitor is > > turned on. It depends, I suppose, on the monitor, but I've got the > > IIe with the dual drive box between it and the color monitor and from > > time to time, e.g. when I turn on the monitor while the computer has > > been powered up but the monitor has been powered down, e.g. when I go > > upstairs to get a sandwich or answer the doorbell, the drive runs up > > and the diskette is partially unreadable afterward. > > > Didn't you just get finished telling us in the last 10 messages on this > topic that you threw out all your Apple ]'s??? > hmmm, back in 1984 some of the apple //e's at skool had two disk drives, and those of us who copied warez made sure to get those for quick disk copying. (ahh, memories of disk muncher 1.1 -----) The monitor //e sat right on top of the two disk ]['s and never a problem. Some of them also had the monitor /// that sat on top of the //e and drives and never a problem. I also used, and always wished for one of those //e 'professional' systems; the enhanced //e, duodisk and colour display for the //e. The one I used never had a problem either. I know there is some kind of problem relating to the duodisk and disks getting trashed (anyone know details?) but nothing ever related to the display. clearing the HYPE about bioterrorism www.formatc.org/terrorism.htm -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20011106/1cd25d51/attachment.html From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Tue Nov 6 15:49:11 2001 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (Allison) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:31 2005 Subject: Clearly OT (but what the hell...) (was: food Message-ID: <000601c1670c$dff30a00$6b7b7b7b@ajp> Yes, and pastichio is reall good too.. especially with stuffed grapeleaves and spinach pie. Here in Framingham we are very fortunate to have excellent dining from the non-franchise food groups. Italian, Brazialian, and Greek are among favorites as in Hunan and Korean. Allison From: Pete Turnbull To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org Date: Tuesday, November 06, 2001 4:23 PM Subject: Re: Clearly OT (but what the hell...) (was: food >On Nov 6, 14:47, Roger Merchberger wrote: > >> and 1 greek restaurant, which is extremely good but don't serve enough >> (IMHO) choices in the way of greek food... They have gyros, kalamari, and >a >> few other dishes & the rest - american. (damn good american, but american >> nonetheless...) >> :-( >> I'm continually begging them for new greek stuff - you can get a burger >> anywhere, after all - and I was *finally* greeted with something new this >> Saturday (don't recall the name, some type of lamb & beef dish with a >> baked pancake-like topping - started with an "M") and it was fantastic! > >Moussaka? Layers of minced[1] lamb and fried aubergines[2] with eggs, >greek yoghurt[3], and baked. Mmm, very nice! I had some last night. > >[1] you'd probably call that ground lamb >[2] eggplant >[3] thick yoghurt made from sheep's milk > >-- >Pete Peter Turnbull > Network Manager > University of York > From spc at conman.org Tue Nov 6 16:02:21 2001 From: spc at conman.org (Sean 'Captain Napalm' Conner) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:31 2005 Subject: Clearly OT (but what the hell...) (was: food In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20011106143744.02a67250@mail.30below.com> from "Roger Merchberger" at Nov 06, 2001 02:47:50 PM Message-ID: <200111062202.RAA09281@conman.org> It was thus said that the Great Roger Merchberger once stated: > > I'm continually begging them for new greek stuff - you can get a burger > anywhere, after all - and I was *finally* greeted with something new this > Saturday (don't recall the name, some type of lamb & beef dish with a > baked pancake-like topping - started with an "M") and it was fantastic! Mousaki---although I'm not spelling that right at all. There's a diner in Boca Raton [1] called, appriately enough, the Boca Diner [2] that is Greek owned and I've had it there. Quite good (if indeed, I'm thinking of the right dish). > Awrighty -- educate this idiotic american... what's Poutine? (Oh, and as an > aside, what's Haggis?) I don't know what Poutine is, but I do know what Haggis is. Tripe [4]. Or in other words, cow stomache. Sorry, I'll pass. -spc (Doing my best to keep this on topic) [1] Marginally on topic as Boca Raton, FL was the birth place of the IBM PC. The building that it was actually developed in is now an art museum if I recall correctly. If anyone is interested, here's a shot of IBM mainsite from Terraserver: http://terraserver.homeadvisor.msn.com/image.asp?S=10&T=1&X=2946&Y=14596&Z=17&W=2 The large hex shape in the center is the (was the actually [3]) main IBM building, with a large pool in the center. It's a beautiful building. [2] Not to be confused with the Boca Raton Diner (ick, ptuey!). It used to be opened 24 hours (and was a favorite hangout for CS students at FAU) but alas, no more. [3] IBM pulled out of Boca Raton in 1995-96. The old IBM campus is now owned by a company called TRex and it leases space out of the buildings to high-tech companies. Some friends and I took a walk through the main building in '98 (thereabouts---it was mostly empty at that point) and the server rooms were impressive---some had raised floors of 6 feet or more in height! [4] Leared that from Hack (not Nethack). Also learned the vi movement keys on that game. Still marginally on topic 8-) From rhblakeman at kih.net Tue Nov 6 16:21:52 2001 From: rhblakeman at kih.net (Russ Blakeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:31 2005 Subject: OT: Chemistry Sets (was RE: Rubber Restorer...) In-Reply-To: <10111061656.ZM2818@mindy.dunnington.u-net.com> Message-ID: Had a large marble sized blob of it myself. The danger is more in mercuric oxide from what I gathered from HS science and snooping the internet, unless it's in your mouth in fillings mixed with silver. I was crazy before the fillings so I doubt it's done anything compared to the way I was beforehand. -> -----Original Message----- -> From: owner-classiccmp@classiccmp.org -> On Nov 6, 7:44, Feldman, Robert wrote: -> -> > do shudder a bit to think of some of things we did, though, -> like playing -> > with big globs of mercury in our hands. -> -> I still have a jar containing about 1/4 pint of the stuff :-) -> From rhblakeman at kih.net Tue Nov 6 16:21:56 2001 From: rhblakeman at kih.net (Russ Blakeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:31 2005 Subject: Rubber Restorer... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: most kids now don't even know that a car has a battery - they barely know what the lever marked "hood" is for. -> -----Original Message----- -> On Tue, 6 Nov 2001, Eric Dittman wrote: -> > Fortunately the acids available in the chemistry sets weren't very -> > concentrated, -> -> But any kid knows that you can get some better acid out of the car -> battery. From rhblakeman at kih.net Tue Nov 6 16:21:58 2001 From: rhblakeman at kih.net (Russ Blakeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:31 2005 Subject: Way OT: Haggis (was RE: Clearly OT (but what the hell...) (was: food In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Both my Irish and Scot relatives of age (mostly 60's to 80's) all make and eat Haggis and I've always hated what is in it but loved to eat it. Just like broccoli with some people, it's an acquired taste. -> -----Original Message----- -> Roger Merchberger wrote: -> -> > Awrighty -- educate this idiotic american... what's Poutine? -> (Oh, and as an -> > aside, what's Haggis?) -> -> Poutine is a Quebecois interpretation of french fries with -> cheese curds and -> gravy. -> -> Haggis has been referred to as a "culinary disaster", but as a -> Scot I feel -> somewhat motivated to defend it -- although I have no idea quite how to -> go about doing so. Oatmeal and chopped sheep sweetbreads stuffed into a -> sheep's stomach and boiled. Frequently served for breakfast :P -> -- -> Chris Kennedy -> chris@mainecoon.com -> http://www.mainecoon.com -> PGP fingerprint: 4E99 10B6 7253 B048 6685 6CBC 55E1 20A3 108D AB97 -> -> From rhblakeman at kih.net Tue Nov 6 16:21:54 2001 From: rhblakeman at kih.net (Russ Blakeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:31 2005 Subject: Rubber Restorer... In-Reply-To: <200111061954.fA6JsL523087@narnia.int.dittman.net> Message-ID: Can't be any worse than the potassium dichromate I used for 2 yrs in silk screen making in the mid 70's and came home with dark yellow (jaundiced look to them) hands. Had all the goodies in my sets too but that was a day when parents supervised without you knowing you were supervised, unlike our present day hand-holding way of teaching new things. I had a pirahna in my aquarium, dad said don't mess with it. Got a chunk of skin ripped off of my index finger by not listening - learned to listen from them on, at least about pirahnas. Now you can't even have them in most places (I have a mother-in-law I'd love to have play with about a swimming pool of them) -> -----Original Message----- -> From: owner-classiccmp@classiccmp.org -> [mailto:owner-classiccmp@classiccmp.org]On Behalf Of Eric Dittman -> Sent: Tuesday, November 06, 2001 1:54 PM -> To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org -> Subject: Re: Rubber Restorer... -> -> -> > >I wonder if children's chemistry sets still come with all the -> > >interesting chemicals? -> > -> > Nope, no potassium perchlorate, potassium nitrate, but plenty of sodium -> > laurel sulfate. -> -> No iodine crystals, either, I take it? -> -> NB: If you don't know what you could do with these you probably -> had a much -> safer childhood. -> -- -> Eric Dittman -> dittman@dittman.net -> Check out the DEC Enthusiasts Club at http://www.dittman.net/ -> From vance at ikickass.org Tue Nov 6 16:29:04 2001 From: vance at ikickass.org (One Without Reason) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:31 2005 Subject: VAXserver question In-Reply-To: <200111061252.fA6Cqll21906@narnia.int.dittman.net> Message-ID: The 3100 is ID 6, and the RRD42 is ID 4. Peace... Sridhar On Tue, 6 Nov 2001, Eric Dittman wrote: > > Hi. I am trying to get four VAXserver 3100's working. However, when I > > try to boot from my RRD42 (it is in 512 mode), it gives me an error > > DEVOFFLINE. I have tried more than one RRD42 with more than one > > machine. I need help ASAP. Thanks. > > What are the SCSI IDs of the RRD42 drives and the 3100 systems? > -- > Eric Dittman > dittman@dittman.net > Check out the DEC Enthusiasts Club at http://www.dittman.net/ > From vance at ikickass.org Tue Nov 6 16:32:25 2001 From: vance at ikickass.org (One Without Reason) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:31 2005 Subject: Rubber Restorer... In-Reply-To: <200111061954.fA6JsL523087@narnia.int.dittman.net> Message-ID: What a kid's chemistry kit needs is ethyl hexaperchlorate. And Caesium metal stored in kerosene. Fun fun fun fun fun. Peace... Sridhar On Tue, 6 Nov 2001, Eric Dittman wrote: > > >I wonder if children's chemistry sets still come with all the > > >interesting chemicals? > > > > Nope, no potassium perchlorate, potassium nitrate, but plenty of sodium > > laurel sulfate. > > No iodine crystals, either, I take it? > > NB: If you don't know what you could do with these you probably had a much > safer childhood. > -- > Eric Dittman > dittman@dittman.net > Check out the DEC Enthusiasts Club at http://www.dittman.net/ > From optimus at canit.se Tue Nov 6 16:12:08 2001 From: optimus at canit.se (Iggy Drougge) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:31 2005 Subject: Solbourne (fwd) Message-ID: <60.710T400T13923769optimus@canit.se> I got this on another list. Could be of interest here, too. -------------- next part -------------- An embedded message was scrubbed... From: "Andreas Oman" Subject: Solbourne Date: 6 Nov 2001 11:45:32 GMT Size: 1698 Url: http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20011106/1d9a8b86/attachment.mht From optimus at canit.se Tue Nov 6 16:38:22 2001 From: optimus at canit.se (Iggy Drougge) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:31 2005 Subject: food In-Reply-To: <200111061248.HAA08280@wordstock.com> Message-ID: <107.710T1100T14184657optimus@canit.se> Bryan Pope skrev: >hmmm.... Poutine anyone? ;-) The French prime minister? -- En ligne avec Thor 2.6a. From vance at ikickass.org Tue Nov 6 16:52:26 2001 From: vance at ikickass.org (One Without Reason) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:31 2005 Subject: Rubber Restorer... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Potassium dichromate is a slow-action carcinogen. Potassium percholate would end your life a *lot* quicker. Peace... Sridhar On Tue, 6 Nov 2001, Russ Blakeman wrote: > Can't be any worse than the potassium dichromate I used for 2 yrs in silk > screen making in the mid 70's and came home with dark yellow (jaundiced look > to them) hands. Had all the goodies in my sets too but that was a day when > parents supervised without you knowing you were supervised, unlike our > present day hand-holding way of teaching new things. I had a pirahna in my > aquarium, dad said don't mess with it. Got a chunk of skin ripped off of my > index finger by not listening - learned to listen from them on, at least > about pirahnas. Now you can't even have them in most places (I have a > mother-in-law I'd love to have play with about a swimming pool of them) > > -> -----Original Message----- > -> From: owner-classiccmp@classiccmp.org > -> [mailto:owner-classiccmp@classiccmp.org]On Behalf Of Eric Dittman > -> Sent: Tuesday, November 06, 2001 1:54 PM > -> To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org > -> Subject: Re: Rubber Restorer... > -> > -> > -> > >I wonder if children's chemistry sets still come with all the > -> > >interesting chemicals? > -> > > -> > Nope, no potassium perchlorate, potassium nitrate, but plenty of sodium > -> > laurel sulfate. > -> > -> No iodine crystals, either, I take it? > -> > -> NB: If you don't know what you could do with these you probably > -> had a much > -> safer childhood. > -> -- > -> Eric Dittman > -> dittman@dittman.net > -> Check out the DEC Enthusiasts Club at http://www.dittman.net/ > -> > From dmabry at mich.com Tue Nov 6 14:57:12 2001 From: dmabry at mich.com (Dave Mabry) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:31 2005 Subject: ISIS & CP/M for MDS 225 series3 References: <002b01c166e7$bb7e9c40$e94694d1@dsuper.net> Message-ID: <3BE84EA8.F27C777@mich.com> Hey Doug, I have one of those (Series III) machines and should have both ISIS-II and CP/M (maybe even CP/M Plus). The 225 has an internal single density diskette drive and may have external double density drives. What format would you want the operating systems on if I can get my computer working. It hasn't been turned on it a while, but the last time I tried to use it it worked. Let me know and I'll try to help. BTW, even though the "off the shelf" CP/M will boot, I have written an enhanced bios that supports both the double density drives and the internal single density drive. All this is kind of fuzzy, but if my machine will boot, it will all come back to me and I'll copy it for you. Take care, Dave Doug Taylor wrote: > > Hello folks... > I've been trying to get an operating system for my MDS 225 series 3 on 8" > disks. > I've read that it uses ISIS (Intel System Implementation Supervisor) > and that it can also run CP/M (GENERIC) according to Joe's web site > http://www.intellistar.net/~rigdonj/mds.htm > However, I've tried to email joe at > rigdonj@intellistar.net > But the mail bounces as undelivered. > Any ideas? > > Doug Taylor (Techno) > Sysop of the "Dead On Arrival BBS" > Telnet://doabbs.dynip.com > http://www-mtl.look.ca/~techno > techno@dsuper.net -- Dave Mabry dmabry@mich.com Dossin Museum Underwater Research Team NACD #2093 From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Nov 6 13:52:08 2001 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:31 2005 Subject: CPU design at the gate level In-Reply-To: <004e01c1666a$33c612b0$d2f19a8d@ajp166> from "ajp166" at Nov 5, 1 09:09:51 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1394 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20011106/9f740da2/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Nov 6 14:00:29 2001 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:31 2005 Subject: Stacking Apple ][ stuff In-Reply-To: <000b01c16689$d74a2d80$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> from "Richard Erlacher" at Nov 5, 1 11:11:14 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 827 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20011106/14603971/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Nov 6 17:29:41 2001 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:32 2005 Subject: Rubber Restorer... In-Reply-To: from "Fred Cisin" at Nov 6, 1 09:40:49 am Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 4549 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20011106/fc400992/attachment.ksh From mythtech at Mac.com Tue Nov 6 18:00:55 2001 From: mythtech at Mac.com (Chris) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:32 2005 Subject: Way OT: Haggis (was RE: Clearly OT (but what the hell...) (was: food Message-ID: >Poutine is a Quebecois interpretation of french fries with cheese curds and >gravy. For those from the New Jersey area, it is basically Disco Fries (which you can get at any self respecting diner... the Bendix being the preferable one now that Twin [ch]Oaks has been torn down) -chris From cisin at xenosoft.com Tue Nov 6 18:04:05 2001 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin (XenoSoft)) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:32 2005 Subject: Rubber Restorer... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: > > But any kid knows that you can get some better acid out of the car > > battery. On Tue, 6 Nov 2001, Tony Duell wrote: > Alas many car batteries (at least in the UK) are 'sealed for life' so > it's less easy to extract some sulphuric acid, at least not without > damaging the battery enough to get noticed :-(. In the US, MOST of the "sealed" batteries actually have access holes into each cell, that are hidden under a cap or tape. > > But,.. in our litigious society obsessed with liability, they removed all > > of the swallowable sized pieces, all of the metal parts, all of the brass > > gears, the 110V motor, ... > What ever could be left :-( NOTHING worth while. -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin@xenosoft.com NOTE: My ISP is having some problems. If you have difficulty reaching me at this e-mail address, you can leave a message at: fcisin@merritt.edu cisin@info.sims.berkeley.edu From jfoust at threedee.com Tue Nov 6 18:02:07 2001 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:32 2005 Subject: Rubber Restorer... In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4.3.2.7.0.20011106175721.022d65a0@pc> At 11:29 PM 11/6/01 +0000, Tony Duell wrote: > They are labelled >'Not a toy, for use only under adult supervision'. I am still trying to >work out how somebody could seriously harm themselves with one of these >kits, unless they were a Darwin Awards candidate anyway... Maybe - just maybe - a kid could get a tingle from a self-chopping step-up transformer or relay... Then again, even just a few volts might tingle if you stick two wires in your eye, if you ignored the pain of the wire in your eye and concentrated on the juice. On the other off-topic, I was introduced to "poutine" by some programmers I met while on site at a programming job in Quebec City. Being from Wisconsin, the mixture of fried potatoes, cheese curds and gravy seemed right at home. Around here, people go to great lengths to buy very fresh cheese curds. They must squeak when you bite 'em. - John From dpeschel at eskimo.com Tue Nov 6 18:10:14 2001 From: dpeschel at eskimo.com (Derek Peschel) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:32 2005 Subject: Stacking Apple ][ stuff In-Reply-To: ; from SUPRDAVE@aol.com on Tue, Nov 06, 2001 at 04:42:53PM -0500 References: Message-ID: <20011106161014.A14227@eskimo.eskimo.com> On Tue, Nov 06, 2001 at 04:42:53PM -0500, SUPRDAVE@aol.com wrote: > (ahh, memories of disk muncher 1.1 -----) The monitor //e sat right on top of > the two disk ]['s and never a problem. Some of them also had the monitor /// It's putting the drives (or just the diskettes) on top of the montior that's supposedly a problem. Putting the monitor on the drives is OK. > either. I know there is some kind of problem relating to the duodisk and > disks getting trashed (anyone know details?) but nothing ever related to the > display. That would be related to the drive. I forget the details but it's possible that the two drives shared some component between them. -- Derek From lemay at cs.umn.edu Tue Nov 6 18:16:04 2001 From: lemay at cs.umn.edu (Lawrence LeMay) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:32 2005 Subject: Micro PDP 11/73 Message-ID: <200111070016.SAA04884@caesar.cs.umn.edu> Well, I decided to take the day off, so what should happen but that I get email from work teling me that someone has left a PDP 8/75 in a desk with floppy drives on the loading dock (which is very very close to my office...). So, I come in, and of course its not the pdp 8/a i'm expecting, no... Its a Micro PDP 11/73 with a couple of other rack mounted things that i'm guessing are modems or some such (non DEC). Anyways, I take the computer and rack mounting parts, but now i'm full of questions. For one thing, whats the proper way to get to the cards? It looks like i may have to take apart the back end of this thing, which contains about 9 male DB25 connectors and a 2 digit LED numerical display... So far, I can tell I have the KDJ11-B CPU board, which is quad height unlike the A version which the web tells me was dual height. I can see there are cards in the upper 4 slots of the bus, and that there may be a total of 8 slots. Anyways, i'm afraid i'm not knowledgeable on this 'modern' DEC stuff, so any help, like sugestions on the proper way to open the back of this thing, would be appreciated. -Lawrence LeMay From cisin at xenosoft.com Tue Nov 6 18:25:54 2001 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin (XenoSoft)) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:32 2005 Subject: Rubber Restorer... In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.0.20011106175721.022d65a0@pc> Message-ID: At 11:29 PM 11/6/01 +0000, Tony Duell wrote: > They are labelled >'Not a toy, for use only under adult supervision'. I am still trying to > work out how somebody could seriously harm themselves with one of these > kits, unless they were a Darwin Awards candidate anyway... Did they give you enough wire to wind a transformer? Connect to the mains? I'd bet that Tony could figure out a way to make something lethal out of what they provided. From jrkeys at concentric.net Tue Nov 6 18:43:18 2001 From: jrkeys at concentric.net (John R. Keys Jr.) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:32 2005 Subject: Classic Gaming Collections References: <200111061253.HAA09400@wordstock.com> Message-ID: <00a601c16725$325d22e0$67701fd1@default> Have three cartridges for one but no console yet :-( ----- Original Message ----- From: "Bryan Pope" To: Sent: Tuesday, November 06, 2001 6:53 AM Subject: Re: Classic Gaming Collections > > What?! No Vectrex?! ;-) > > > > > > I for one have enlarged my gaming collection since it's getting harder > > to collect S100 and other older computer items. Every where I go now > > people tell me that they can get more on eBay than my offer. Some have > > called me back after trying to sell their items with no luck on eBay. > > Back to the gaming items I now have almost every Sega console, one each > > GameBoy series, both Atari 2600's, Atari 5200, and 7800, The Pong, > > What do you mean by "both Atari 2600's"? There were more then two... > > There was the 4-switch, 6-switch, junior, sears telegames... maybe more.. > > > > Intellvision's 3 different models, Atari 400 & 800, Vic20, various C64 > > models, various other Atari models in the XL series, a Bally, TI99/4's > > various models, many handheld models like the NOMAD, GameGear, and > > others, Coleco Adam, VideoBrain, and many other systems plus tons of > > game software and cartridges. Someday I will have a complete list on > > the web and the units on display. > > > Nice list ..! :D > > Bryan > From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Tue Nov 6 18:35:07 2001 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (ajp166) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:32 2005 Subject: Clearly OT (but what the hell...) (was: food Message-ID: <002401c16724$9b20b4a0$9eed9a8d@ajp166> Tatties and neeps, love them and grew up with them. Never did haggis and would never as I hate lung. Allison From: Pete Turnbull To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org Date: Tuesday, November 06, 2001 6:14 PM Subject: Re: Clearly OT (but what the hell...) (was: food >On Nov 6, 14:47, Roger Merchberger wrote: > >> (Oh, and as an aside, what's Haggis?) > >Minced sheep's liver, lungs, and heart (the "pluck"), mixed with oatmeal, >suet, and spices, sewn into the sheep's stomach bag and boiled. I grew up >in Edinburgh with the stuff and I hate it, but many consider it a delicacy. > Traditionally served with boiled mashed potatoes ("tatties") and turnip >("neeps") and on special occasions like Burn's Night with a glass of >whisky. Search for "Macsween" on the web -- theirs are widely rated the >best. > >I've only once seen it served for breakfast, thank goodness. I put that on >a par with the person I saw eat two raw onions with a cup of coffee for >breakfast. > >-- >Pete Peter Turnbull > Network Manager > University of York From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Tue Nov 6 18:37:48 2001 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (ajp166) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:32 2005 Subject: CPU design at the gate level Message-ID: <002501c16724$9b94d330$9eed9a8d@ajp166> Tony, There is a trick... half the calcs result in the same thing. remove the mirrored states and your more than halfway there. Allison -----Original Message----- From: Tony Duell To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org Date: Tuesday, November 06, 2001 7:00 PM Subject: Re: CPU design at the gate level >> >> Tony, >> >> Faster as in is sub 150ns are fairly common and cheap. Whats > >It's still slower than F-TTL I think. > >> problemtic is that the ALU must do about 8-16 different operations >> so that would be at least a 512kN part or larger. > >Well, a 16 bit ALU in a single EPROM (or a pair of 8-bit wide ones) is a >non-starter. You'd need 32 data inputs (2 16 bit words), say 4 or 5 >function select inputs, carry in. That's about 38 inputs, so 38 address >lines to the EPROM, or 256 gigawords. Ouch!. > >8 bits is possible, but still pushing it (around 4M bytes of EPROM -- 16 >data inputs, 5 function selects, carry in, so 22 address lines). > >4 bits is trivial (8 data inputs, 5 selects, Cin, so 14 total, or 32K >nybbles). > >If you're going to cascade EPROMs for more bits, even if you use lookahead >carry, then the time taken for the ALU to calculate a result is around >twice the access time of the EPROMs (once to calcuate P,G, and a possibly >incorrect result, once to correct the result for the Cin signal produced >as a result of P and G from lower ALUs). > >You might be able to save some time by having multiple EPROMs (or the 2 >halfs of the output word of a single EPROM) calculate the 2 possible >results (Cin =0 and Cin =1). Then select between them using (distributed) >multiplexers debending on the actually state of Cin, which should be faster >then another EPROM access. > >-tony > From jrkeys at concentric.net Tue Nov 6 18:51:12 2001 From: jrkeys at concentric.net (John R. Keys Jr.) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:32 2005 Subject: Classic Gaming Collections References: <200111061253.HAA09400@wordstock.com> Message-ID: <012f01c16726$4d1f4e40$67701fd1@default> I have the Sears and others also but when I get a complete list I will give you a better count. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jeff Hellige" To: Sent: Tuesday, November 06, 2001 2:21 PM Subject: Re: Classic Gaming Collections > >What do you mean by "both Atari 2600's"? There were more then two... > > > >There was the 4-switch, 6-switch, junior, sears telegames... maybe more.. > > I believe the FAQ lists a total of nine 2600 varients of all > kinds, including the Japan-only 2800. > > Jeff > -- > Home of the TRS-80 Model 2000 FAQ File > http://www.cchaven.com > http://www.geocities.com/siliconvalley/lakes/6757 > > From pete at dunnington.u-net.com Tue Nov 6 18:21:37 2001 From: pete at dunnington.u-net.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:32 2005 Subject: Clearly OT (but what the hell...) (was: food In-Reply-To: "Sean 'Captain Napalm' Conner" "Re: Clearly OT (but what the hell...) (was: food" (Nov 6, 17:02) References: <200111062202.RAA09281@conman.org> Message-ID: <10111070021.ZM3146@mindy.dunnington.u-net.com> On Nov 6, 17:02, Sean 'Captain Napalm' Conner wrote: > I don't know what Poutine is, but I do know what Haggis is. Tripe [4]. > Or in other words, cow stomache. Sorry, I'll pass. Not quite. Haggis is sheep; tripe is intestine. I do, however, completely concur with your enthusiasm for the stuff :-) -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager University of York From edick at idcomm.com Tue Nov 6 18:39:10 2001 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:32 2005 Subject: hard-sector 5 1/4 disk References: Message-ID: <001301c16724$9e09a3c0$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> see below, plz. Dick ----- Original Message ----- From: "Sellam Ismail" To: Sent: Tuesday, November 06, 2001 1:52 PM Subject: Re: hard-sector 5 1/4 disk > On Mon, 5 Nov 2001, Richard Erlacher wrote: > > > I don't know what you Apple-Computer-Co pimps have been smoking ... > > I've never said ANYTHING about products manufactured and sold after > > 1990 or so, and I certainly have limited my comments to the products > > using the Wozniak floppy disk interface, which is the basis of the > > complaints I've had to deal with since 1978. That's not to say that > > That's the problem I have with your comments...the fact that they are so > very wrong and invalid. Like I said, I wish you would explicitly limit > your comments to being your opinion and not insisting on stating them as > "facts". > I would label this as consensus rather than opinion, Sellam, as I've actually done very little with Apple][ since the early '80's, but I've had to deal with the problems others have brought to me, which were trivially solvable by plucking out the offending component, namely the Apple][ disk subsystem. Once the disk subsystem has been gone, the Apple][ was quite solid and predictable, in ways other than, "well, it's work for another hour or so ... then the disk won't be readable any longer ...." > > > > I'll repeat, that I find the Apple disk interface of the type > > associated with the Apple][ family to be ridiculously fragile, > > requiring extensive precautions in day-to-day use and extensive > > maintenance on a frequent (weekly) basis in order to make them at all > > useful. That's a disappointment because technology available at the > > same time these devices became popular worked MUCH better, though > > people wanting to buy fully integrated systems which the Apple > > "computers" of the time were marketed to be, weren't willing to pay > > the price, hence, were stuck with the Apple product instead. > > > > Now, as for the post 1985 products, all of you Microsoft-haters ought > > to remember how Apple dealt with its user base during the Lisa and > > early MAC years, whenever you disparage M$ (not to defend these > > practices ... ) for its distribution of different OS API's to > > different software vendors, depending on the "deal" that was made. > > Ok, they both have bad policies with regards to their API. It's just that > MS is excessively more egregious about it. > > > > All this stems from the fact that back in the '80's, if even the > > teensiest thing went wrong in the Apple]['s interaction with its own > > FD subsystem, the Apple][ went "TILT" and unless you knew things not > > yet published, you had no option but to restart and lose your current > > set of working data. What's more, if you were foolish enough to power > > down the system with a diskette in the drive, or if you were foolish > > enough to set the Apple up as shown in numerous installations, with > > the monitor atop the 2 FDD's and that pair atop the Apple box, your > > disk subsystem gave you what they (Apple Computer Co) figured you > > deserved. > > I think your recollection is tainted by the Apple-colored glasses, Sellam. I've recently talked this sort of problem over with some of the guys who dealt with it back in the '80's, which I didn't because I simply refused to use the things after seeing how cavalierly the Apple simply died and required a restart to continue. Some of these guys remember the bitter arguments over the relative reliability of the Apple][ versus CP/M boxes costing little more than half what an Apple cost. As you can imagine, it's only grudgingly that they admit that their choice was the wrong one. Hindsight is generally better than what one's got here and now. Since you seem to know something I don't, which is always possible, particularly in this arena, perhaps you can clear up what one can do to recover from a disk failure "hang" when the Apple cannot read its diskette. This sort of thing seems to happen about once per hour if one is running software the actually uses the disk drives, e.g. every two to three seconds, continually for extended periods. It even occurs when running CP/M on the Apple drives. That's why nobody I know did that. If you know what to do to avoid having to restart and to avoid having to give up on work entered manually since the last disk save, then please, quote me the page and line in the documentation where it's described. That's all most folks had to go on back when the Apple was a current device. > > Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ > International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org > > From pete at dunnington.u-net.com Tue Nov 6 18:24:40 2001 From: pete at dunnington.u-net.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:32 2005 Subject: Rubber Restorer... In-Reply-To: One Without Reason "Re: Rubber Restorer..." (Nov 6, 17:32) References: Message-ID: <10111070024.ZM3150@mindy.dunnington.u-net.com> On Nov 6, 17:32, One Without Reason wrote: > > What a kid's chemistry kit needs is ethyl hexaperchlorate. And Caesium > metal stored in kerosene. Fun fun fun fun fun. I've got hydrazine, sodium in paraffin, potassium in paraffin, iodine, bromine, a few other things. Will that do? :-) No caesium, though :-( -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager University of York From lemay at cs.umn.edu Tue Nov 6 18:41:32 2001 From: lemay at cs.umn.edu (Lawrence LeMay) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:32 2005 Subject: Micro PDP 11/73 In-Reply-To: <200111070016.SAA04884@caesar.cs.umn.edu> Message-ID: <200111070041.SAA05013@caesar.cs.umn.edu> > > For one thing, whats the proper way to get to the cards? It looks like i may > have to take apart the back end of this thing, which contains about 9 male > DB25 connectors and a 2 digit LED numerical display... So far, I can tell > I have the KDJ11-B CPU board, which is quad height unlike the A version > which the web tells me was dual height. I can see there are cards in the > upper 4 slots of the bus, and that there may be a total of 8 slots. Tricky devils, someone put a huge 110V/220V sticker on the power supply that was so large it also covered the screws I needed to open the back. Well, I have a 1 Mbyte MOS RAM board, M3104 8-line asyncronous multiplexor with DMA (can these be used as normal serial ports, or do I need more external hardware?), a M7546 TMSCP controller for TK50 tape unit (which I dont have), and the M7555 MFM Winchester & Floppy disk controller. I'm assuming I just connect a terminal to the main console serial port, and hope someone left me an operating system since I have no peripherals at this time... -Lawrence LeMay From jrkeys at concentric.net Tue Nov 6 18:57:15 2001 From: jrkeys at concentric.net (John R. Keys Jr.) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:32 2005 Subject: Classic Gaming Collections References: Message-ID: <014f01c16727$257514a0$67701fd1@default> Glad I got everyone's attention but no one else seems to be listing what gaming items they have which was the original question asked. Mine's was a start not a complete listing as half of my collection is down in Texas and it very hard get a count right now. I was down there last week but ended up buying more items than I counted at the warehouses. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Sellam Ismail" To: Sent: Tuesday, November 06, 2001 3:00 PM Subject: Re: Classic Gaming Collections > On Mon, 5 Nov 2001, John R. Keys Jr. wrote: > > > each GameBoy series, both Atari 2600's, Atari 5200, and 7800, The > ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ > > Hate to burst yer bubble, but there were a few variations of the Atari > 2600: the 6-switch version, the 4-switch version, the black 4-switch > version, the Sears Tele-Games OEM, and the 2600jr. Maybe a couple I'm > forgetting. > > > How about the Fairchild Channel F, the handheld Microvision, the > Intellivision // and Intellivision ///, the NES Famicom... > > Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- -------- > International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org > > From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Nov 6 18:41:28 2001 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:32 2005 Subject: Rubber Restorer... In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.0.20011106175721.022d65a0@pc> from "John Foust" at Nov 6, 1 06:02:07 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1080 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20011107/516fff52/attachment.ksh From donm at cts.com Tue Nov 6 18:50:03 2001 From: donm at cts.com (Don Maslin) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:32 2005 Subject: Rubber Restorer... In-Reply-To: <200111061252.fA6CqBa21898@narnia.int.dittman.net> Message-ID: On Tue, 6 Nov 2001, Eric Dittman wrote: > > > > Carbon Tetrachloride is what Carbona spot remover was. I think they've > > > > either outlawed it or just taken it from the market for consumers. > > > > > > I seem to remember carbon tetrachloride is a carcinogen. > > > > So they say. It also has some other nifty qualities like forming > > phosgene gas (think WW-I) when applied to a hot surface. > > I wonder how many accidental poisonings occurred? A number, I would imagine, and especially in tight quarters. I got exposed to some briefly during the `40s when the paper wrapping on some decorative steel plate caught fire and the people nearest used a Carbon Tet extinguisher to put it out. Rather pungent as I recall, so it does provide some warning. Also in that same era we used to degrease various components of Resnatron Radar jamming with carbon tet and acetone bare handed. No one thought a thing of it except for the way it degreased your hide! - don > I remember old chemistry sets came with sodium ferrocyanide. The > bottles all said "DO NOT MIX WITH ACID" with no explanation given, > which probably lead to a few children trying it to see what happens. > > Fortunately the acids available in the chemistry sets weren't very > concentrated, as a strong acid mixed with sodium ferrocyanide can > produce cyanide gas, esp. when the solution is exposed to heat or > direct sunlight. Also fortunate is the bond between the iron and > the cyanide in sodium ferrocyanide is very strong. > > I wonder if children's chemistry sets still come with all the > interesting chemicals? > -- > Eric Dittman > dittman@dittman.net > Check out the DEC Enthusiasts Club at http://www.dittman.net/ > From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Nov 6 18:49:28 2001 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:32 2005 Subject: Rubber Restorer... In-Reply-To: from "Fred Cisin" at Nov 6, 1 04:25:54 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 2096 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20011107/86778903/attachment.ksh From donm at cts.com Tue Nov 6 19:05:18 2001 From: donm at cts.com (Don Maslin) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:32 2005 Subject: ISIS & CP/M for MDS 225 series3 In-Reply-To: <001201c166e3$fb12b0c0$6b7b7b7b@ajp> Message-ID: On Tue, 6 Nov 2001, Allison wrote: > Standard CP/M on 8" is the right bios but.... The right media > as the MDS controller was SD/D2... single density(normal ibm > 128 byte sectors) and D2 was double density by m2fm and > incompatable with everything except Intel. So you need > another working intel box user. > > Allison > I am told that a WD1793 based controller can read M2FM. Have not tried it myself, though. Did not Altos use such a format with their MP/M disks? - don > -----Original Message----- > From: Doug Taylor > To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org > Date: Tuesday, November 06, 2001 11:42 AM > Subject: ISIS & CP/M for MDS 225 series3 > > > >Hello folks... > >I've been trying to get an operating system for my MDS 225 series 3 on 8" > >disks. > >I've read that it uses ISIS (Intel System Implementation Supervisor) > >and that it can also run CP/M (GENERIC) according to Joe's web site > >http://www.intellistar.net/~rigdonj/mds.htm > >However, I've tried to email joe at > >rigdonj@intellistar.net > >But the mail bounces as undelivered. > >Any ideas? > > > > > >Doug Taylor (Techno) > >Sysop of the "Dead On Arrival BBS" > >Telnet://doabbs.dynip.com > >http://www-mtl.look.ca/~techno > >techno@dsuper.net > > > > > > From edick at idcomm.com Tue Nov 6 19:10:37 2001 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:32 2005 Subject: hard-sector 5 1/4 disk References: Message-ID: <002d01c16729$02b941a0$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> see below, plz. Dick ----- Original Message ----- From: "Sellam Ismail" To: Sent: Tuesday, November 06, 2001 1:57 PM Subject: Re: hard-sector 5 1/4 disk > On Mon, 5 Nov 2001, Richard Erlacher wrote: > > > However, there's an easily observable basis for the beliefs regarding > > the Apple][ disk subsystem that I've put forth in this case, unlike > > the erroneous conclusions that early 20th-century Americans had drawn > > about diet. > > In the Dick Erlacher World of Factually Erroneous and Frivelous Opinions, > perhaps. In the real world? Nein. > > > The Apple][ disk subsystem was made in order to offer drives with a > > capacity advantage over its competitor, the TRS-80 single-density > > 5-14" drives. I don't remember the details of the cost difference, > > I think your timeline is in error here. I believe the Apple Disk ][ was > on the market before the TRS-80 disk drives. And at any rate, your > analysis is, again, wrong. Apple offered disk drives because it was a > good marketing move, and it just happened to store more data than Radio > Shack's because Woz's design was elegant, clever, and superior. > You may well be right about the timing, but the timing isn't the point. I'd suggest you look in the old BYTE mag's (I've given all my useable ones away by now) for the ads from Apparat, a Denver vendor of accessories for TRS-80 and Apple systems. They were a client of mine and the FD subsystem they offered for the TRS-80 was, as I recall, on the market at holiday time in 1979-'80. I'm quite sure Apple had diskette drives out by then, since I got my own (8") drives for my homebrew 6502 setup in '80. That was my first contact with the TRS-80 after-market, but it seems to me that the TRS-80 came out in '78 and was fully equipped (expansion interface, printer, FDD's, modem, etc.) by holiday time of '79. Apparat also sold a replacement OS for the TRS-80, which came out then. That will verify the times at which the Ap ple FDD as well as the TRS-80 FDD became available. It's certainly possible I'm off by a year. However, the TRS-80 was, at whatever time they both had their FDD's available, the only seriously competing system that Apple had to deal with because there weren't any other single-supplier systems available, yet. At that point there was no VIDEX board yet, either, IIRC. A year later things were completely different because of the VIDEX board, the SVA FD interface, VISICALC, and a number of other things. It was not my point, by the way, that Apple built their drive as an answer to Tandy, but, rather, that they did the things they did in order to save money on their floppy drive subsystem, because they were expensive back then. They saved lots of dough with their tightly integrated drive/controller arrangement since they not only used a really cheap set of electronics, and quite a clever one, but didn't have to pay tens of bucks for a then-still-very-costly FDC chip. That was a VERY big cost advantage, which, as I wrote before, didn't show up as a price reduction that you'd notice. As for the error rate, there were numerous assessments published over time, and because their bit-error rate wasn't an entire order of magnitude higher, Apple was able to brush it aside as "not even an order of magnitude" higher. It's been studied extensively and perhaps there are even better figures on it now than there were back then. The fact that it provided effectively double-density media capacity made it a reasonable tradeoff for the not-totally-professional user. I'm not sure about what figures were developed regarding disk-error-induced system crashes. > > > but the main advantage to Apple was in that they built their own drive > > electronics and cound benefit at the system level, cost-wise, from > > every little thing they left out. First of all, they didn't have to > > > > Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ > International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org > > From jhellige at earthlink.net Tue Nov 6 19:15:51 2001 From: jhellige at earthlink.net (Jeff Hellige) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:32 2005 Subject: Classic Gaming Collections In-Reply-To: <014f01c16727$257514a0$67701fd1@default> References: <014f01c16727$257514a0$67701fd1@default> Message-ID: >Glad I got everyone's attention but no one else seems to be listing what >gaming items they have which was the original question asked. Well if it's a list you want, here's what I have: - Fairchild Channel F and Channel F System II - GCE Vectrex - Atari 2600 - Emerson Arcadia 2001 - Mattel Intellivision and Intellivision II - Magnavox Odyssey^2 - Atari Super Pong - Atari Jaguar - Atari Lynx II - Radio Shack TV Scoreboard - Magnavox Odyssey 400 - Magnavox Odyssey 200 - Coleco Telstar - Unisonic Tournament 2000 - Mattel Starhawk - Entex PacMan Not sure if you want Pong-type consoles or not, but there are a few of them mixed in there, plus a couple of handhelds. Jeff -- Home of the TRS-80 Model 2000 FAQ File http://www.cchaven.com http://www.geocities.com/siliconvalley/lakes/6757 From allain at panix.com Tue Nov 6 19:16:59 2001 From: allain at panix.com (John Allain) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:32 2005 Subject: Way Hurled OT: Haggis etc. References: Message-ID: <002801c16729$e67daac0$21fe54a6@ibm23xhr06> Wow, French fries, you'd never know it if... You get your Poutines Canned, as my grandparents used to. In case you're worrying about canned fries, don't. It's even worse. These, the Poutines Rapee, are mutant poutines that end up like the pierogie or the chinese dumpling. Compressed (often in a cheesecloth wrapper) cooked mass of potato with a caloric mass in the center, usually something like pork, but it could be anything sufficiently gross. The idea with poutine, je pense, is that it supplies maximum calories to help a person to survive tha Canadian winter. The bottom of this page talks about this mutant http://www.co-opsonline.com/basics/e/local_products.htm "the greyish colour and gluey texture of the poutines makes them appear somewhat unappetizing..." http://www.mega-zine.com/kitchen/vegetables_and_potatoes/recipe188.html Serve with Moosehead (the beer, not the animal part). John A. From edick at idcomm.com Tue Nov 6 19:19:33 2001 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:32 2005 Subject: Stacking Apple ][ stuff References: Message-ID: <003701c1672a$43d1e100$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> see below, plz. Dick ----- Original Message ----- From: "Sellam Ismail" To: Sent: Tuesday, November 06, 2001 2:10 PM Subject: Re: Stacking Apple ][ stuff > On Mon, 5 Nov 2001, Richard Erlacher wrote: > > > > The monitor seems to interact with the drives when the monitor is > > turned on. It depends, I suppose, on the monitor, but I've got the > > IIe with the dual drive box between it and the color monitor and from > > time to time, e.g. when I turn on the monitor while the computer has > > been powered up but the monitor has been powered down, e.g. when I go > > upstairs to get a sandwich or answer the doorbell, the drive runs up > > and the diskette is partially unreadable afterward. > > Until you're prepared to show me that my observations made over the past few weeks are incorrect, i.e. that no diskette damage occurs, (this happens with APPLE][+ drives AND with the APPLE-][e) > > Didn't you just get finished telling us in the last 10 messages on this > topic that you threw out all your Apple ]'s??? > What I wrote was that I'm tossing the things once I get the FOCAL source and DOCUMENTATION into a form that can be distributed conveniently. Just to P*SS you off, I may put 'em on eBay, though. There aren't any parts worth salvaging, though most are socketed. > > > I'm told by more experienced Apple owners that it's a good idea to (a) > > ground the disk drive boxes in the case of the old aluminum-cased > > Apple][ drives and (b) put a sheet of grounded ferrous metal between > > the monitor and drives. I don't know whether this helps, as I've > > simply stopped turning off the monitor when I go away. > > I'm a highly experienced Apple ][ user (18 years and counting) and I've > NEVER heard of this. Further, as I've already stated NUMEROUS times, > THERE IS NO TRUTH TO THE ASSANINE RUMORS YOU INSIST ON PROMULGATING HERE! > Yes, Sellam, but you've clearly had your head wedged where the sun doesn't shine for much of that time and haven't a clue what you've really observed, if anything, else you'd know better than making an inane statement like that. I don't doubt you're experienced "highly" as we're all acquainted with your attitude about recreational chemicals. It doesn't, you may be assured, contribute to the credibility of your claims. > > Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ > International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org > > From cisin at xenosoft.com Tue Nov 6 19:22:29 2001 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin (XenoSoft)) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:32 2005 Subject: M2FM (was: ISIS & CP/M for MDS 225 series3 In-Reply-To: Message-ID: > On Tue, 6 Nov 2001, Allison wrote: > > Standard CP/M on 8" is the right bios but.... The right media > > as the MDS controller was SD/D2... single density(normal ibm > > 128 byte sectors) and D2 was double density by m2fm and > > incompatable with everything except Intel. So you need > > another working intel box user. On Tue, 6 Nov 2001, Don Maslin wrote: > I am told that a WD1793 based controller can read M2FM. Have not tried > it myself, though. Did not Altos use such a format with their MP/M > disks? Although they may have had many more unique formats than I'm aware of, I have seen quite a few Altos MP/M diskettes that were very ordinary 96TPI MFM, (and readable with a 765) Does anyone have a good refernce to the internal details of M2FM? -- Fred Cisin cisin@xenosoft.com XenoSoft http://www.xenosoft.com PO Box 1236 (510) 558-9366 Berkeley, CA 94701-1236 NOTE: My ISP is having difficulties. If you have problems reaching me at this e-mail address, you can leave a message at: cisin@info.sims.berkeley.edu fcisin@merritt.edu From edick at idcomm.com Tue Nov 6 19:24:33 2001 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:32 2005 Subject: Stacking Apple ][ stuff References: Message-ID: <004101c1672a$f4fea120$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> The unit with which I've had this experience is a IIe with a dual drive box sitting on top of it as shown in an illustration in one of the doc's I've got. The monitor is a color monitor, but not a ///. I complained about this problem at a meeting of the guru's who survived the Apple era some weeks back and was assured that this was common and could easily be avoided with them measures I previously described. I'm not going to have a large enough sample to draw meaningful conclusions, but I was reassured that it was an easily avoidable occurrence by simply opening up the drives when the monitor is powered down, and haven't given it much thought since then until it came up in this context. Dick ----- Original Message ----- From: SUPRDAVE@aol.com To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org Sent: Tuesday, November 06, 2001 2:42 PM Subject: Re: Stacking Apple ][ stuff In a message dated 11/6/2001 3:23:39 PM Central Standard Time, foo@siconic.com writes: On Mon, 5 Nov 2001, Richard Erlacher wrote: > The monitor seems to interact with the drives when the monitor is > turned on. It depends, I suppose, on the monitor, but I've got the > IIe with the dual drive box between it and the color monitor and from > time to time, e.g. when I turn on the monitor while the computer has > been powered up but the monitor has been powered down, e.g. when I go > upstairs to get a sandwich or answer the doorbell, the drive runs up > and the diskette is partially unreadable afterward. Didn't you just get finished telling us in the last 10 messages on this topic that you threw out all your Apple ]'s??? hmmm, back in 1984 some of the apple //e's at skool had two disk drives, and those of us who copied warez made sure to get those for quick disk copying. (ahh, memories of disk muncher 1.1 -----) The monitor //e sat right on top of the two disk ]['s and never a problem. Some of them also had the monitor /// that sat on top of the //e and drives and never a problem. I also used, and always wished for one of those //e 'professional' systems; the enhanced //e, duodisk and colour display for the //e. The one I used never had a problem either. I know there is some kind of problem relating to the duodisk and disks getting trashed (anyone know details?) but nothing ever related to the display. clearing the HYPE about bioterrorism www.formatc.org/terrorism.htm -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20011106/06d75d6f/attachment.html From clandrum at monumental.com Tue Nov 6 19:26:37 2001 From: clandrum at monumental.com (Craig Landrum) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:32 2005 Subject: classiccmp-digest V1 #768 References: <200111052214.QAA04080@opal.tseinc.com> Message-ID: <3BE88DC7.EBC82009@monumental.com> Dick; Without getting too far into religious issues, its been my experience that Macs have consistently supplied a good computing environment for me since 1984. My company uses both Macs and the latest Dell and Compaq PCs, and I lost count of the times our Wintel people have replaced hard disks and reloaded Windows. I have yet to see any of our Macs fail, and we have owned one of virtually every model. I own a G4 with a Cinema display that I wouldn't trade for any Wintel box made. What has impressed me is the level of integration between hardware and software - natural since they own them both and can ensure a high level of compatibility. This lends itself quite well to adding new peripherals and other devices and have them working quickly and without a hitch. I recognize that Apple lost the OS wars. The reasons are numerous, but one of the main ones stems from the corporate mentality of the early 80's when you could never get fired for buying IBM. Hence, truckloads of IBM PC's with Lotus 123 appeared on managers desks. Marketing and sales liked Apple because their desktop publishing capabilities were far and away better than Windows toward the late 80's, but these people were in the minority, and as Windows came along, there became less and less reason to go Apple, from management's point of view. And once Apple was forced from corporate desktops, they were relegated to a niche market, where they will remain. I am productive on my Mac. You are productive on your PC. I'm sure both are terrific matches for their respective users. And as all of us on this list can attest, there have been numerous computers and OS's that, while they may be terrific machines, fell by the wayside for one reason or the other. And you never know. Linux may just be eating Microsoft's lunch by 2005 and those Wintel boxes may start to look nostalgic :-) Craig Landrum Chief Technical Officer Mindwrap, Inc > Date: Sun, 4 Nov 2001 20:07:04 -0700 > From: "Richard Erlacher" > Subject: Re: hard-sector 5 1/4 disk > > Well, I'd have to say that, since the performance and reliability haven't > improved since back in the '80's, the Apple was not designed for serious use, > but rather for use by those who didn't value and trust computers enough to make > the investment in one that warranted the value and trust. Oddly enough, it was > less costly to use a much more reliable system with a larger installed software > based, targeted at small business, yet, thanks to the Apple myths, people paid > 15%-25% more with the idea that it would be easier to use, which, sadly, it > wasn't. > > More below. > > Dick > From donm at cts.com Tue Nov 6 19:26:42 2001 From: donm at cts.com (Don Maslin) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:32 2005 Subject: Way OT: Haggis (was RE: Clearly OT (but what the hell...) (was: food In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Tue, 6 Nov 2001, Chris Kennedy wrote: > Roger Merchberger wrote: > > > Awrighty -- educate this idiotic american... what's Poutine? (Oh, and as an > > aside, what's Haggis?) > > Poutine is a Quebecois interpretation of french fries with cheese curds and > gravy. > > Haggis has been referred to as a "culinary disaster", but as a Scot I feel > somewhat motivated to defend it -- although I have no idea quite how to > go about doing so. Oatmeal and chopped sheep sweetbreads stuffed into a > sheep's stomach and boiled. Frequently served for breakfast :P > -- > Chris Kennedy > chris@mainecoon.com > http://www.mainecoon.com > PGP fingerprint: 4E99 10B6 7253 B048 6685 6CBC 55E1 20A3 108D AB97 > And should always be served with a wee dram of the single malt of your choice poured over it! - don From chronic at nf.sympatico.ca Tue Nov 6 19:32:13 2001 From: chronic at nf.sympatico.ca (Lanny Cox) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:32 2005 Subject: Classic Gaming Collections References: <014f01c16727$257514a0$67701fd1@default> Message-ID: <001d01c1672c$0845d220$88f8fea9@98box> I collect consoles in general, I own the NES, both styles (toploading and front-loading) with about 100 games including Japanese and pirate ones. I also own an atari clone with 4 games, Intellivision 2 with 4 games, Gameboy, Game Gear, etc. I also own some new stuff not worth mentioning, like ps2 and such. I"m always looking for new 8-bit NES stuff, especially it's Japanese counterpart, the Famicom, so if anyone has any they wanna sell or trade, gimme a shout. -Lanny ----- Original Message ----- From: John R. Keys Jr. To: Sent: Tuesday, November 06, 2001 9:27 PM Subject: Re: Classic Gaming Collections > Glad I got everyone's attention but no one else seems to be listing what > gaming items they have which was the original question asked. Mine's was > a start not a complete listing as half of my collection is down in Texas > and it very hard get a count right now. I was down there last week but > ended up buying more items than I counted at the warehouses. > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Sellam Ismail" > To: > Sent: Tuesday, November 06, 2001 3:00 PM > Subject: Re: Classic Gaming Collections > > > > On Mon, 5 Nov 2001, John R. Keys Jr. wrote: > > > > > each GameBoy series, both Atari 2600's, Atari 5200, and 7800, The > > ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ > > > > Hate to burst yer bubble, but there were a few variations of the Atari > > 2600: the 6-switch version, the 4-switch version, the black 4-switch > > version, the Sears Tele-Games OEM, and the 2600jr. Maybe a couple I'm > > forgetting. > > > > > > How about the Fairchild Channel F, the handheld Microvision, the > > Intellivision // and Intellivision ///, the NES Famicom... > > > > Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer > Festival > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > -------- > > International Man of Intrigue and Danger > http://www.vintage.org > > > > > > From clandrum at monumental.com Tue Nov 6 19:33:14 2001 From: clandrum at monumental.com (Craig Landrum) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:32 2005 Subject: classiccmp-digest V1 #768 References: <200111052214.QAA04080@opal.tseinc.com> Message-ID: <3BE88F54.1C07A578@monumental.com> Megan; Please - oh please - round up all your female friends and get them on this list. One of the best firmware programmers I ever knew was a lady named Pat Daniels that worked with me in the late 70's and early 80's. We developed Z80 firmware for custom multiubus boards and were often forced to debug the hardware for the designers using Biomation and HP logic analyzers. I know she would claim that was the most fun she ever had hacking code. Craig Landrum > Date: Sun, 4 Nov 2001 23:37:11 -0500 (EST) > From: Megan > Subject: Re: value of classic DEC machines? > > >>Speaking of you guys, just curious: is this an all-male hobby? No > >>members of the fairer sex here? > > >There's Allison for one. I don't think we raise our little girls to > > I know I haven't posted for awhile... but I didn't think I'd be > forgotten that quickly... :-) > > Megan Gentry > Former RT-11 Developer > > +--------------------------------+-------------------------------------+ > | Megan Gentry, EMT/B, PP-ASEL | Internet (work): gentry!zk3.dec.com | > | Unix Support Engineering Group | (home): mbg!world.std.com | > | Compaq Computer Corporation | addresses need '@' in place of '!' | > | 110 Spitbrook Rd. ZK03-2/T43 | URL: http://world.std.com/~mbg/ | > | Nashua, NH 03062 | "pdp-11 programmer - some assembler | > | (603) 884 1055 | required." - mbg KB1FCA | > +--------------------------------+-------------------------------------+ > From edick at idcomm.com Tue Nov 6 19:44:06 2001 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:32 2005 Subject: M2FM (was: ISIS & CP/M for MDS 225 series3 References: Message-ID: <006c01c1672d$b040a3a0$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> Both MFM and M2FM use the same sort of clock/data separation logic, according to what I've been able to find out. That WD178x series used some sort of separately advertised/supported clock extraction circuit so I've been unable to progress beyond that point as far as establishing whether it would also do MFM. You might check with Eric Smith, as he's got some M2FM stuff to read eventually. He may have the info. Dick ----- Original Message ----- From: "Fred Cisin (XenoSoft)" To: Sent: Tuesday, November 06, 2001 6:22 PM Subject: M2FM (was: ISIS & CP/M for MDS 225 series3 > > On Tue, 6 Nov 2001, Allison wrote: > > > Standard CP/M on 8" is the right bios but.... The right media > > > as the MDS controller was SD/D2... single density(normal ibm > > > 128 byte sectors) and D2 was double density by m2fm and > > > incompatable with everything except Intel. So you need > > > another working intel box user. > > On Tue, 6 Nov 2001, Don Maslin wrote: > > I am told that a WD1793 based controller can read M2FM. Have not tried > > it myself, though. Did not Altos use such a format with their MP/M > > disks? > > Although they may have had many more unique formats than I'm aware of, I > have seen quite a few Altos MP/M diskettes that were very ordinary 96TPI > MFM, (and readable with a 765) > > > Does anyone have a good refernce to the internal details of M2FM? > > -- > Fred Cisin cisin@xenosoft.com > XenoSoft http://www.xenosoft.com > PO Box 1236 (510) 558-9366 > Berkeley, CA 94701-1236 > NOTE: My ISP is having difficulties. If you have problems reaching me at > this e-mail address, you can leave a message at: > cisin@info.sims.berkeley.edu > fcisin@merritt.edu > > From clandrum at monumental.com Tue Nov 6 19:52:45 2001 From: clandrum at monumental.com (Craig Landrum) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:32 2005 Subject: More Apple Pimpers References: <200111052214.QAA04080@opal.tseinc.com> Message-ID: <3BE893E4.5BB0FCD8@monumental.com> Dick; Sorry about all the Apple brotherhood jumping on you with both feet. Having been beat up for so long, we're overly sensitive :-) Forgive us our CPU. We know not what we do. It wasn't clear to me in your original post that you were referring to the Apple II diskette drive, but I understand now. And yeah - the IWM (Incredible Woz Machine) diskette controller WAS fairly sensitive. I never owned an Apple II, but heard about them. Peace brother. Craig Landrum From UberTechnoid at home.com Tue Nov 6 19:49:53 2001 From: UberTechnoid at home.com (UberTechnoid@home.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:32 2005 Subject: Refilling Toner Carts (was RE: Rubber Restorer...) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20011107015303.XRPO20941.femail7.sdc1.sfba.home.com@BENCHBOX> Having been inside thousands of laser, led, and Inkjet printers in my time, I'd have to agree with HP. Third-party recycled toner carts can cause an ungodly mess a tech is gonna have to clean up. Inkjet refill kits can have the same effect (but gooeyer). For those on the list, you know what you are doing and know what you are getting into, but PLEASE tell your customers/clients to buy original toner carts or carts from a known maker (such as Xerox tonor carts for hp printers). Shopping for price is ok, but refilled carts from Joedy Rottenkrotch are recipe for disaster. Regards, Jeff In , on 11/05/01 at 05:02 PM, Mike Ford said: >>HP recommends a plain old water (a damp cloth) to clean printer rollers. I >>>Does anyone know where I can get "Rubber Restorer"? I know it comes in a >>>spray. >I bought a bottle of Rubber Rejuvient at Frys, Platen Cleaner is another >similar thing. Keep in mind HP is the same company that said Toner >cartridges can't be refilled, so when the wet cloth doesn't work, use the >real stuff if you don't want to buy new parts or a printer. -- ----------------------------------------------------------- Jeffrey S. Worley Asheville, NC USA 828-6984887 UberTechnoid@Home.com ----------------------------------------------------------- From zmerch at 30below.com Tue Nov 6 20:10:58 2001 From: zmerch at 30below.com (Roger Merchberger) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:32 2005 Subject: Refilling Toner Carts (was RE: Rubber Restorer...) In-Reply-To: <20011107015303.XRPO20941.femail7.sdc1.sfba.home.com@BENCHB OX> References: Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20011106210634.0283fff8@mail.30below.com> Rumor has it that UberTechnoid@home.com may have mentioned these words: >Having been inside thousands of laser, led, and Inkjet printers in my >time, I'd have to agree with HP. As much as I hate "me too" posts... "Me Too!" >Third-party recycled toner carts can cause an ungodly mess a tech is gonna >have to clean up. Inkjet refill kits can have the same effect (but >gooeyer). Or worse. There are some inkjet printers out there that have an "overflow" valve & tiny reservoir that will take up excess ink - if you refill these cartridges, once that overflow reservoir fills you can actually ruin your printer! Granted, there are some inkjet printers that IMHO should have never seen the light of day... but I'll not get into that. :-) >For those on the list, you know what you are doing and know what you are >getting into, but PLEASE tell your customers/clients to buy original toner >carts or carts from a known maker (such as Xerox tonor carts for hp >printers). I did *just that.* The local officemax was out of HP carts for our 4000N, so I purchased a Xerox. Works as good as the original... > Shopping for price is ok, but refilled carts from Joedy >Rottenkrotch are recipe for disaster. ;-) I dunno if I'd have put it *quite that way* but you are indeed correct. Laterz, Roger "Merch" Merchberger From vze2wsvr at verizon.net Tue Nov 6 20:27:55 2001 From: vze2wsvr at verizon.net (Eric Chomko) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:32 2005 Subject: OS9 or Flex09 on 8" disk needed References: <01Nov2.155752est.119205@gateway.mediacen.navy.mil> Message-ID: <3BE89C2A.C0A1BC6C@mail.verizon.net> Jeff, I missed this! I might be able to help you out. I purchased Tom Harmon's (was SS-50 guy turned Amiga guy) stock of all his SS-50 stuff a few years ago. I believe that in that bunch of stuff may be what you are after. Eric Jeff Hellige wrote: > Does anyone have OS9 or Flex09, preferably for the SWTPc, on > 8" floppy or a means of making one on 8" floppy? I've finally gotten > a nice 8" cabinet with a pair of Siemens' 800-2 drives as well as a > bare pair of Shugart 851's and would like to give them a whirl with > the DMF2 floppy controller installed in my S/09. This was it's last > configuration, running OS9 with the Microware support ROMs on the > MP-09A. I could even provide the 8" disks if someone was willing to > make them. > > Thanks > Jeff > -- > Home of the TRS-80 Model 2000 FAQ File > http://www.cchaven.com > http://www.geocities.com/siliconvalley/lakes/6757 From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Nov 6 20:28:36 2001 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:32 2005 Subject: Refilling Toner Carts (was RE: Rubber Restorer...) In-Reply-To: <20011107015303.XRPO20941.femail7.sdc1.sfba.home.com@BENCHBOX> from "UberTechnoid@home.com" at Nov 6, 1 08:49:53 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1194 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20011107/cbc0c9b2/attachment.ksh From vze2wsvr at verizon.net Tue Nov 6 20:42:02 2001 From: vze2wsvr at verizon.net (Eric Chomko) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:32 2005 Subject: hacks and hacks! (was Re: Price guide for vintage computers References: <20011102202232.NQAP2781.femail15.sdc1.sfba.home.com@BENCHBOX> Message-ID: <3BE89F7A.CB4E123A@mail.verizon.net> Sounds like a real nice hack. Sounds like you're proud of yours as well you should be. I miss doing stuff like that. Last one like that I did was to relpace a 32K RAM board with one from a prototye board (SS-50) where I was able to replace a whole board full of RAM chips with a single chip plus glue logic. The weight difference and the power consumption was noticable. Eric UberTechnoid@home.com wrote: > That sound like my interpretation of the Claus Buckholtz 256k Atari800xl > 'dead bug' upgrade. Dead bug because the ic's were upside down, legs > splayed.... > > After looking at his world-famous upgrade and the ICD 'Rambo 256k' upgrade > which was on a nice little board, I realized they are one-and-the-same. > > I made a cross between the two I called the 'Sly Stallone 512k 800xl'. It > used a peice of perf board and a wire-wrap socket. I filed the pins on > the socket a bit so it would plug into a 16-pin (74ls158?) socket on the > xl's motherboard. It looked a LOT nicer than the dead bug version and > used fewer parts than ICD's version. Saved two headers and a bit of ribbon > cable. > > Regards, > > Jeff > > In <3BE2162E.F173AE12@mail.verizon.net>, on 11/01/01 > at 10:42 PM, Eric Chomko said: > > >But let's face it, I've also seen a hack that added functionality that > >had a TTL chip epoxied back-to-back with pins sticking up in the air and > >wires going all over. Looked like a nasty spider. On the same token I > >have seen a daughter card plugged into a chip slot with a few wires going > >to a pin row header and all daughter card wires neatly aligned. The > >latter looked so good, in a way it looked better than a machine made > >board. > > -- > ----------------------------------------------------------- > Jeffrey S. Worley > Asheville, NC USA > 828-6984887 > UberTechnoid@Home.com > ----------------------------------------------------------- From louiss at gate.net Tue Nov 6 20:48:31 2001 From: louiss at gate.net (Louis Schulman) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:32 2005 Subject: Apple Floppy Drives (was: More Apple Pimpers) In-Reply-To: <3BE893E4.5BB0FCD8@monumental.com> Message-ID: <200111070248.VAA32372@blount.mail.mindspring.net> On Tue, 06 Nov 2001 20:52:45 -0500, Craig Landrum wrote: #It wasn't clear to me in your original post that you were #referring to the Apple II diskette drive, but I understand #now. And yeah - the IWM (Incredible Woz Machine) diskette #controller WAS fairly sensitive. I never owned an Apple II, #but heard about them. "I never owned an Apple II, but heard about them." Now THAT is authoritative. Well, I have owned a bunch of them and a room full of Disk IIs. They were and are by far the most reliable disk drive from the early home PC era. TRS-80 drives? I have a beautiful Model 1 setup. But talk about trashing disks! And slow! What about the single board CP/M machines? I have them too. The disk drives on the Osborne were, based on extensive experience, the least reliable ever made. If one drive could read what another had written, it was a gift from God. And with the double density upgrade, it was much worse. Commodore PET drive system. Holy smoke, a whole second computer just to operate the drives, and even then, blecch. And even later, how about the "ingenious" DEC double disk-munching drives, that couldn't format disks? I'll take the Disk II any day. Louis From vze2wsvr at verizon.net Tue Nov 6 21:03:26 2001 From: vze2wsvr at verizon.net (Eric Chomko) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:32 2005 Subject: 8 inch floppy drives References: Message-ID: <3BE8A47E.AAB567D9@mail.verizon.net> Reminds me of Bravo Sierra that carries just about everything you need for your Atari. They have it but it'll cost ya! Eric Jeff Hellige wrote: > >On Sun, 4 Nov 2001, Richard Erlacher wrote: > > > >> I've not purchased anything from them since '77, when I bought a couple of > >> "digital" cassette drives from them. Their 8" drive prices are > >>about what the > > > drive prices were back when the technolgy was new and current, > >though the drives > >> may not be. > > > >Erm! The last time that I checked, Dick, admittedly not within a month > >or so, they were asking $99 each for them. That is vastly different > >from the prices of the '70s & '80s! > > Actually most of them are priced at nearly $200 or more. > It's as if they are old stock and they've never changed the price. > > Jeff > -- > Home of the TRS-80 Model 2000 FAQ File > http://www.cchaven.com > http://www.geocities.com/siliconvalley/lakes/6757 From KenzieM at sympatico.ca Tue Nov 6 21:18:13 2001 From: KenzieM at sympatico.ca (Mike Kenzie) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:32 2005 Subject: Toronto Area Collectors? Message-ID: <001e01c1673b$587a8380$0101a8c0@sympatico.ca> Seems a few out of town collectors will be in Toronto this weekend. Any interest in a mini-swap meet? Any good sources for old machines? Collector of Vintage Computers (www.ncf.ca/~ba600) From spectre at stockholm.ptloma.edu Tue Nov 6 21:42:34 2001 From: spectre at stockholm.ptloma.edu (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:32 2005 Subject: Way OT: Haggis (was RE: Clearly OT (but what the hell...) (was: food In-Reply-To: from Chris Kennedy at "Nov 6, 1 12:14:54 pm" Message-ID: <200111070342.TAA10164@stockholm.ptloma.edu> > > Awrighty -- educate this idiotic american... what's Poutine? (Oh, and as an > > aside, what's Haggis?) > > Poutine is a Quebecois interpretation of french fries with cheese curds and > gravy. Ugh. For the Canadian Anglophiles, my current best Quebec joke: A British Columbian and a Quebecois were walking along when they both spied a lamp and ran for it. They both got their hands on it at the same time, so when the genie appeared, he said, "I have to split your wishes -- but due to budget cuts, I always round down, so you only get one." "Fine," said the Quebecois, "I want a giant, impenetrable wall built around Quebec, 150 meters high!" "Done," said the genie. "Wait a minute," said the BCan. "There's now a wall around the entire province of Quebec?" "Yep," said the genie. "And it's 150 meters high?" "Yep." "And nothing can get in or out of it?" "Totally impenetrable," nodded the genie. "In that case," said the BCan, rubbing his hands together, "fill it up with water!" Au revoir, -- ----------------------------- personal page: http://www.armory.com/~spectre/ -- Cameron Kaiser, Point Loma Nazarene University * ckaiser@stockholm.ptloma.edu -- There is no Dark Side of the Moon, really. Matter of fact, it's all dark. -- From spectre at stockholm.ptloma.edu Tue Nov 6 21:46:26 2001 From: spectre at stockholm.ptloma.edu (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:32 2005 Subject: Reconstructing "King's Quest" In-Reply-To: from Jeff Hellige at "Nov 6, 1 03:01:00 pm" Message-ID: <200111070346.TAA11208@stockholm.ptloma.edu> > >Gee by now Cameron you should know I have everything, 720k drive piece of > >cake, I may even have Kings Quest new in the box. > > I think the original releases of the various Sierra games > like that included documentation-based copy protection. I've got the > original 3.5" disks for quite a few of their games here myself, and I > know that a lot of them initially shipped with both 3.5" and 5.25" > disks in the single package. Unfortunately I've long since lost the > docs for most of them. The beauty of this particular edition is that the copy protection is stripped. It runs without comment on the 486. PC Gamer really outdid themselves with that cover disc; it contains full versions of Duke Nukem II, Alone in the Dark, the original Monkey Island, Terminal Velocity, Descent, XCOM, Wing Commander I (alas rewritten for Win32, eyugh), Ultima 1: The First Age of Darkness, Red Baron, Betrayal at Krondor, Links, Need For Speed 1, Ultima Underworld, and, of course, KQ1. All of them are completely legal editions, and most of these games are on-topic :-) -- ----------------------------- personal page: http://www.armory.com/~spectre/ -- Cameron Kaiser, Point Loma Nazarene University * ckaiser@stockholm.ptloma.edu -- When in doubt, use brute force. -- Ken Thompson ---------------------------- From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Tue Nov 6 21:48:50 2001 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (ajp166) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:32 2005 Subject: Apple Floppy Drives (was: More Apple Pimpers) Message-ID: <00ff01c1673f$33894800$9eed9a8d@ajp166> RE: apple II I've worked around and with them. Never serious 6502 programming but used apps on them like UCSD pascal. The disks worked ok compared to my NS* {NS* disk controllers are reliable} and yes they were sensitive only to the extent that an unshielded 34pins cable didn't like to be near some monitors. The tubes in metal cases were ok but some of the plastic cased ones tended to radiate noise that the cables seemed to find. It's beauty was the basic logic was simple as were the drive hardware and that helped it work better than most. Some of the better floppy systems of the time where neither simple nor cheap. RE: trs80 >TRS-80 drives? I have a beautiful Model 1 setup. But talk about trashing disks! And slow! Slow was running the z80 at 1.7mhznot the disks fault though the step rates were really slow even for sa400s!.. See above and yep the tube was plastic cased and worse hot chassis! Grounding was poor on the drives, their internal regulators were at limits current wise plus the data separator in the EI was very poor. Not to worry though, as most tended to crash from the sloppy and noisy console to EI interface. >What about the single board CP/M machines? I have them too. The disk drives on the >Osborne were, based on extensive experience, the least reliable ever made. If one >drive could read what another had written, it was a gift from God. And with the double density upgrade, it was much worse. That was the drives and I always thought the SA400 series to be really poor even though my NS* had three of them. TM100s were not much better! Also there was some really bad media based on some of the media failures I've had over the years. The SA400 was the slowest, most unreliable floppy of the time, it made everything it was attached to look bad. The worst part is many vendors of early 5.25 drives had their own version of worst at one point or another. >And even later, how about the "ingenious" DEC double disk-munching drives, that couldn't >format disks? The drives could but the controller didn't, therein lies the difference. The RX02 was old when the 1771 FDC was young so comments based on post 1980 tech are not reflective of then(pre 1980s). I'd call the RX01/2 the 1970s version of an IDE floppy as it was smart and executed commands that were higher level than even the 1771, mostly due to the microcoded controller. The RX01/2 were reliable enough though the RX50 was pretty poor. In my book after the RX02 the next useable floppy from DEC was the RX33 (teac FD-55GFR). The commie controllers were a good idea that suffered from poor implementation. they were fast in themselves but the serial link was limited. Allison From rhblakeman at kih.net Tue Nov 6 22:24:40 2001 From: rhblakeman at kih.net (Russ Blakeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:32 2005 Subject: Refilling Toner Carts (was RE: Rubber Restorer...) In-Reply-To: <20011107015303.XRPO20941.femail7.sdc1.sfba.home.com@BENCHBOX> Message-ID: I would agree and disagree - I have had clients with good name (Quill) rebuilts that wee real crap. I deal with a local rebuilder that will send someone over in a 50 mile radius if they feel the cartridge is at fault to clean and repair your printer free, replace the cartridge free if you are out of area. I have purchased many of their rebuilds as I (unlike many people can do) have been in their rebuild facility and seen what they do to recondition the EP carts. I have also seen people in a garage drilling and filling without ever changing )or even checking) drums, wipers, seals etc. You basically have to try a rebuilder once and then decide if their product is of any quality. Even HP and Lexmark state on their virgin carts that they "may contain recycled components" meaning drums and other components so they a re new with some rebuilt parts. -> -----Original Message----- -> From: owner-classiccmp@classiccmp.org -> [mailto:owner-classiccmp@classiccmp.org]On Behalf Of -> UberTechnoid@home.com -> Sent: Tuesday, November 06, 2001 7:50 PM -> To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org -> Subject: Refilling Toner Carts (was RE: Rubber Restorer...) -> -> -> Having been inside thousands of laser, led, and Inkjet printers in my -> time, I'd have to agree with HP. -> -> Third-party recycled toner carts can cause an ungodly mess a -> tech is gonna -> have to clean up. Inkjet refill kits can have the same effect (but -> gooeyer). -> -> For those on the list, you know what you are doing and know what you are -> getting into, but PLEASE tell your customers/clients to buy -> original toner -> carts or carts from a known maker (such as Xerox tonor carts for hp -> printers). Shopping for price is ok, but refilled carts from Joedy -> Rottenkrotch are recipe for disaster. -> -> Regards, -> -> Jeff -> -> In , on 11/05/01 -> at 05:02 PM, Mike Ford said: -> -> >>HP recommends a plain old water (a damp cloth) to clean -> printer rollers. I -> -> >>>Does anyone know where I can get "Rubber Restorer"? I know -> it comes in a -> >>>spray. -> -> >I bought a bottle of Rubber Rejuvient at Frys, Platen Cleaner is another -> >similar thing. Keep in mind HP is the same company that said Toner -> >cartridges can't be refilled, so when the wet cloth doesn't -> work, use the -> >real stuff if you don't want to buy new parts or a printer. -> -> -> -> -- -> ----------------------------------------------------------- -> Jeffrey S. Worley -> Asheville, NC USA -> 828-6984887 -> UberTechnoid@Home.com -> ----------------------------------------------------------- -> -> From donm at cts.com Tue Nov 6 22:26:26 2001 From: donm at cts.com (Don Maslin) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:33 2005 Subject: M2FM (was: ISIS & CP/M for MDS 225 series3 In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Tue, 6 Nov 2001, Fred Cisin (XenoSoft) wrote: > > On Tue, 6 Nov 2001, Allison wrote: > > > Standard CP/M on 8" is the right bios but.... The right media > > > as the MDS controller was SD/D2... single density(normal ibm > > > 128 byte sectors) and D2 was double density by m2fm and > > > incompatable with everything except Intel. So you need > > > another working intel box user. > > On Tue, 6 Nov 2001, Don Maslin wrote: > > I am told that a WD1793 based controller can read M2FM. Have not tried > > it myself, though. Did not Altos use such a format with their MP/M > > disks? I should have noted that I was referring to 8" diskettes. - don > Although they may have had many more unique formats than I'm aware of, I > have seen quite a few Altos MP/M diskettes that were very ordinary 96TPI > MFM, (and readable with a 765) > > > Does anyone have a good refernce to the internal details of M2FM? > > -- > Fred Cisin cisin@xenosoft.com > XenoSoft http://www.xenosoft.com > PO Box 1236 (510) 558-9366 > Berkeley, CA 94701-1236 > NOTE: My ISP is having difficulties. If you have problems reaching me at > this e-mail address, you can leave a message at: > cisin@info.sims.berkeley.edu > fcisin@merritt.edu > > From rhblakeman at kih.net Tue Nov 6 22:30:20 2001 From: rhblakeman at kih.net (Russ Blakeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:33 2005 Subject: Refilling Toner Carts (was RE: Rubber Restorer...) In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20011106210634.0283fff8@mail.30below.com> Message-ID: Just rebuilt an OfficeJet that someone used junk refills in - the service station ink well was to the top full of black ink and it spilled into the powered on mainboard and now the mainboard won't get past the ROM version number, even after I pulled it and used denatued alcohol to remove the ink and moisture. Luckily I got to one on ebay for $10/ship that siad it made a groaning and banging. Got that for parts and found that I had a good unit once I cleaned the encoder - the screwed unit sits aside for parts now and the $10 unit is in service as a replacement. The new unit cost them the $30 I paid for it and shipping plus an hour of inshop time, and they never saved anything due to this. Of course they could have gone with a new laser based fax/printer/copier/scanner but has anyone ever priced them lately? $600 easy...this is a small property management office and that is just a little out of budget for their first 3 yrs of operation. Needless to say they are buying HP carts now, through a mass supplier I deal with in MN (BlackHawkInc) -> -----Original Message----- -> From: owner-classiccmp@classiccmp.org -> -> -> Rumor has it that UberTechnoid@home.com may have mentioned these words: -> >Having been inside thousands of laser, led, and Inkjet printers in my -> >time, I'd have to agree with HP. -> -> As much as I hate "me too" posts... "Me Too!" -> -> >Third-party recycled toner carts can cause an ungodly mess a -> tech is gonna -> >have to clean up. Inkjet refill kits can have the same effect (but -> >gooeyer). -> -> Or worse. There are some inkjet printers out there that have an -> "overflow" -> valve & tiny reservoir that will take up excess ink - if you -> refill these -> cartridges, once that overflow reservoir fills you can actually -> ruin your -> printer! From rhblakeman at kih.net Tue Nov 6 22:30:22 2001 From: rhblakeman at kih.net (Russ Blakeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:33 2005 Subject: Rubber Restorer... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Dang Don, you really go way back huh? I wasn't around until the late 50's so you could likely be my real dad huh (grin). I used to kid with the smartassed GI students of mine about where their moms were around the time of their comception - especially if their moms were from northern IL or southern WI (although I was more interested in "stuff" than "muff" at the time. -> -----Original Message----- - -> A number, I would imagine, and especially in tight quarters. I got -> exposed to some briefly during the `40s when the paper wrapping on some -> decorative steel plate caught fire and the people nearest used a Carbon -> Tet extinguisher to put it out. Rather pungent as I recall, so it does -> provide some warning. -> -> Also in that same era we used to degrease various components of -> Resnatron Radar jamming with carbon tet and acetone bare handed. No one -> thought a thing of it except for the way it degreased your hide! From jhfine at idirect.com Tue Nov 6 22:25:52 2001 From: jhfine at idirect.com (Jerome Fine) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:33 2005 Subject: About those PDP-11 /83 's References: <7C9F0BB3FDC5D3119C5900805FC73615574CD8@usa0207ms1.eng.mc.xerox.com> Message-ID: <3BE8B7D0.A160833E@idirect.com> >Lynch, Thomas J wrote: > Last week I wrote that I had a coule PDP-11 /83 's > some people respoded with interests of various sorts > [Snip] > Any information as to what these are, etc. would be appreciated. > We'll be moving them today with a bunch of other stuff [deadlines, > deadlines, you know], and probably not find them again until week end. I'm > hoping we can move them out next week. > Thanks for your interest. > tom > tomsir@rochester.rr.com Jerome Fine replies: As I mentioned on Sunday, I am interested in the 11/83 systems in the BA123 boxes (assuming you do have the ones on 4 wheels each). Also of interest are the TK70 tape drives. In addition, I have a friend who is interested in the RA82 drives plus the rest of the hardware. We would both be interested in arriving on Friday if that helps with a not needing an extra move on your part. He has a van with quite a large capacity when the seats are removed and we would drive down early Friday morning. If you could also reply with the range of dollars you are looking for that would indeed be helpful as well. The last time I went to Cleveland (and that was over 4 years ago) to pick up an 11/83 in a BA123 box, the total cost was $ 7.50, so even that long ago 11/83 systems were no longer in much demand. They also had a few terminals which was a bonus. If you want to arrange things quickly, (416) 667-8233 Sincerely yours, Jerome Fine From g at kurico.com Tue Nov 6 22:42:58 2001 From: g at kurico.com (g@kurico.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:33 2005 Subject: Goodwill Computer Store Austin, TX In-Reply-To: References: <3BE7267B.29869.34E938@localhost> Message-ID: <3BE86772.20028.51AADE7@localhost> On 6 Nov 2001 at 13:05, Ernest wrote: > > > Though I do covet some of the items in the museum, there is at > > least one positive thing that > > having it at Goodwill has over it being in the hands of a private > > collector, and that is that the > > items are available for many more people to "enjoy". Now they > > might not get as much as > > someone on this list who can "truely appreciate" it, but a great > > many people have seen it and > > had positive experiences. I think having something like this is > > very good at raising the > > awareness amongst people that these old computers aren't purely > > boat anchors. A few of the > > systems there were saved from the scrapper by the virtue of the > > person seeing the museum > > and donating versus junking the systems. > > That is a good point but doesn't it seem a little strange that an > organization that is supposed to be focused on selling donated junk to help > the poor would hold onto items that are clearly worth a bit of money for the > purpose of display? Is that ethical? Are they developing a new focus? Actually, their charter is to hire those who are normally "unhireable" and put them to work. If the museum helps bring in business to keep their business going, then it works within the system. Plus, if the store is selling enough to "show a profit", then it's not really "necessary" to sell these items _now_. Keep in mind that this is in reality a private collection, and could be sold at any time if they wanted or needed to. George From louiss at gate.net Tue Nov 6 22:45:24 2001 From: louiss at gate.net (Louis Schulman) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:33 2005 Subject: Apple Floppy Drives (was: More Apple Pimpers) In-Reply-To: <00ff01c1673f$33894800$9eed9a8d@ajp166> Message-ID: <200111070445.XAA17826@smtp6.mindspring.com> On Tue, 6 Nov 2001 22:48:50 -0500, ajp166 wrote: #RE: apple II #It's beauty was the basic logic was simple as were the drive hardware and #that #helped it work better than most. Some of the better floppy systems of #the time where #neither simple nor cheap. Yes, I think this is the most important point of all, and applies as well to the entire Apple II computer. The elegant simplicity and sophistication of the design was head and shoulders above the competition. Which is why even though Apple wanted to stop making Apple IIs from the time the III was introduced, nonetheless they remained in production from 1977-1993. That is testimony to good design. Louis From fernande at internet1.net Tue Nov 6 23:27:40 2001 From: fernande at internet1.net (Chad Fernandez) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:33 2005 Subject: Clearly OT (but what the hell...) (was: food References: <200111061248.HAA08280@wordstock.com> <5.1.0.14.2.20011106143744.02a67250@mail.30below.com> <005501c16705$b3c034a0$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> Message-ID: <3BE8C64C.7AD4F4A9@internet1.net> I was a witness to my mother finding out that my adopted sister truly didn't like lima beans. We were all sitting at the table..... "come on Andrea, eat those lima beans....... Mom, I don't like them...... eat them anyways......GAG BARF (literally :-)...... okay Andrea, you don't have to eat lima beans anymore :-)" Different situation than your kids, but funny! Then there was the time, I saw her literally force a banana down her throat as a two year old..... like we were going to take it away or something, if she didn't get it down right away. Richard Erlacher wrote: > > When my boys both were still well under 10 years old, they suddenly decided they > didn't like mushrooms. From cmcmanis at mcmanis.com Tue Nov 6 23:33:40 2001 From: cmcmanis at mcmanis.com (Chuck McManis) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:33 2005 Subject: VAXserver question In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <5.0.0.25.2.20011106213200.01b23c20@209.185.79.193> You have a cartridge in the drive? The LED on the front shows access? The bus is correctly terminated? These things cause problems. A third issue is sometimes the holder for the CD "pinches" it and it can't spin, make sure its free to turn. Show DEV shows the drive as an RRD42? Its not conflicting in address with another device? --Chuck At 12:26 AM 11/6/01 -0500, One Without Reason wrote: >Hi. I am trying to get four VAXserver 3100's working. However, when I >try to boot from my RRD42 (it is in 512 mode), it gives me an error >DEVOFFLINE. I have tried more than one RRD42 with more than one >machine. I need help ASAP. Thanks. > >Peace... Sridhar From dec.parts at verizon.net Tue Nov 6 23:44:31 2001 From: dec.parts at verizon.net (Info from LSI) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:33 2005 Subject: Available For Trade - Tandon 8" Floppy Drive - Model TM848E Message-ID: <3BE8CA3F.6DEA@verizon.net> Have available ... Tandon 8" Floppy Drive - Model TM848E http://members.bellatlantic.net/~vze2mj6m/tandon/1s.jpg http://members.bellatlantic.net/~vze2mj6m/tandon/2s.jpg We removed this from the machine it was in, so we know it has never been handled roughly. We haven't tested it though, just hadn't gotten around to it. Since we know most of you hobbyist/collector types don't want to pay much for anything, and since http://www.cadigital.com/flopdriv.htm prices them at $149.00 and up, if anybody wants it, suggest something of value you'd have to trade for it. From edick at idcomm.com Tue Nov 6 23:51:02 2001 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:33 2005 Subject: Apple Floppy Drives (was: More Apple Pimpers) References: <200111070248.VAA32372@blount.mail.mindspring.net> Message-ID: <001d01c16750$2f2b5c60$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> Ugh! ... you'd be hard pressed to pick a worse example of a "standard" inteface to a floppy disk than the one used in the TRS-80, though lots of allegations were made about it. The TRS-80 is a poor example, apparenly right up to the model IV, and I know very little about its reputation. Tony Duell recently pointed out that his early experience with that indicated that it worked fairly well when the drives were well maintained. I only became familiar with the TRS-80 as a problem to be solved. In '81, I bought a CCS S-100 setup, which was the first complete "system" I'd bought from a single vendor, and attached it to a terminal. At that point I figured that was all it took. I didn't ever have a problem with that hardware/software, and I used that setup so much I ultimately bought a second one just like it, with another two Mistubishi 8" drives. I don't think I even thought about possible diskette failures. Most of the fellows I knew, at the time, to be Apple users, had other systems, mostly homebrews, and those either didn't have disk drives, or had 8" types, as I had on my homebrew box. It was pretty obvious from the fact that most folks who were using the Apple in an attempt to do something other than either make or break copy protection for Apple games, which a couple of the guys were doing, and making good money at it, that one had to have 8" drives in order to have reliable disk function on the Apple. Most of the guys I knew at the time who made money with their Apple]['s were doing it with 8" drives, even though they had to deliver their work product on Apple diskettes. The IWM was, indeed, incredible. It did several things that were extremely significant, particularly because of the favorable treadoff between hardware and software, to help the bottom line. It did so, however, at the cost that the resulting subsystem was a mite prone to hiccup, which it still is. It was never fixed, since there really isn't a way to fix it. It's fragile, and the only way to live with that is to recognize the vulnerabilities, and to work around them, which is clearly possible. In 1981, the PC was released, and that was the death knell for computers like the Apple. Even so, they hung on for several years. Even devoted Apple][ fans, though, have, for the most part, sobered up enough since the '80's to recognize that the Apple floppy disk subsystem wasn't as solid as one might have hoped. As for the SBC's, Osborne did have FDC problems, as did Otrona. The Xerox 820, the Ferguson Big Board, and both of their scions, always were pretty stabile, though, and, frankly, I seldom heard about disk drive problems in the context of CP/M boxes, virtually all of which used pretty vanilla flavored FD subsystems. In the 8-9 years that I used 8" drives as my main medium for data interchange, I had perhaps two or three diskette failures that I remember, and I don' think many others had more trouble than I did. That is not what I read and heard about the Apple disk subsystem. Lots of people loved the Apple. The packaging concept was so successful that IBM even emulated it, though they were somewhat weak in their concept of size. Dick ----- Original Message ----- From: "Louis Schulman" To: Sent: Tuesday, November 06, 2001 7:48 PM Subject: Apple Floppy Drives (was: More Apple Pimpers) > On Tue, 06 Nov 2001 20:52:45 -0500, Craig Landrum wrote: > > #It wasn't clear to me in your original post that you were > #referring to the Apple II diskette drive, but I understand > #now. And yeah - the IWM (Incredible Woz Machine) diskette > #controller WAS fairly sensitive. I never owned an Apple II, > #but heard about them. > > "I never owned an Apple II, but heard about them." Now THAT is authoritative. Well, I have owned a > bunch of them and a room full of Disk IIs. They were and are by far the most reliable disk drive from the > early home PC era. > > TRS-80 drives? I have a beautiful Model 1 setup. But talk about trashing disks! And slow! > > What about the single board CP/M machines? I have them too. The disk drives on the Osborne were, > based on extensive experience, the least reliable ever made. If one drive could read what another had > written, it was a gift from God. And with the double density upgrade, it was much worse. > > Commodore PET drive system. Holy smoke, a whole second computer just to operate the drives, and even > then, blecch. > > And even later, how about the "ingenious" DEC double disk-munching drives, that couldn't format disks? > > I'll take the Disk II any day. > > Louis > > From edick at idcomm.com Tue Nov 6 23:54:44 2001 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:33 2005 Subject: Refilling Toner Carts (was RE: Rubber Restorer...) References: Message-ID: <002901c16750$b343e3a0$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> I've found it's easier and cheaper to buy a used LaserJet in order to get the partially full toner cartridge than to buy a new or "remanufactured" cartridge, though I've bought quite a number of each. When you're done, you have an empty cartridge that you can trade in on a remanufactured one. Dick ----- Original Message ----- From: "Russ Blakeman" To: Sent: Tuesday, November 06, 2001 9:24 PM Subject: RE: Refilling Toner Carts (was RE: Rubber Restorer...) > I would agree and disagree - I have had clients with good name (Quill) > rebuilts that wee real crap. I deal with a local rebuilder that will send > someone over in a 50 mile radius if they feel the cartridge is at fault to > clean and repair your printer free, replace the cartridge free if you are > out of area. I have purchased many of their rebuilds as I (unlike many > people can do) have been in their rebuild facility and seen what they do to > recondition the EP carts. I have also seen people in a garage drilling and > filling without ever changing )or even checking) drums, wipers, seals etc. > You basically have to try a rebuilder once and then decide if their product > is of any quality. > > Even HP and Lexmark state on their virgin carts that they "may contain > recycled components" meaning drums and other components so they a re new > with some rebuilt parts. > > -> -----Original Message----- > -> From: owner-classiccmp@classiccmp.org > -> [mailto:owner-classiccmp@classiccmp.org]On Behalf Of > -> UberTechnoid@home.com > -> Sent: Tuesday, November 06, 2001 7:50 PM > -> To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org > -> Subject: Refilling Toner Carts (was RE: Rubber Restorer...) > -> > -> > -> Having been inside thousands of laser, led, and Inkjet printers in my > -> time, I'd have to agree with HP. > -> > -> Third-party recycled toner carts can cause an ungodly mess a > -> tech is gonna > -> have to clean up. Inkjet refill kits can have the same effect (but > -> gooeyer). > -> > -> For those on the list, you know what you are doing and know what you are > -> getting into, but PLEASE tell your customers/clients to buy > -> original toner > -> carts or carts from a known maker (such as Xerox tonor carts for hp > -> printers). Shopping for price is ok, but refilled carts from Joedy > -> Rottenkrotch are recipe for disaster. > -> > -> Regards, > -> > -> Jeff > -> > -> In , on 11/05/01 > -> at 05:02 PM, Mike Ford said: > -> > -> >>HP recommends a plain old water (a damp cloth) to clean > -> printer rollers. I > -> > -> >>>Does anyone know where I can get "Rubber Restorer"? I know > -> it comes in a > -> >>>spray. > -> > -> >I bought a bottle of Rubber Rejuvient at Frys, Platen Cleaner is another > -> >similar thing. Keep in mind HP is the same company that said Toner > -> >cartridges can't be refilled, so when the wet cloth doesn't > -> work, use the > -> >real stuff if you don't want to buy new parts or a printer. > -> > -> > -> > -> -- > -> ----------------------------------------------------------- > -> Jeffrey S. Worley > -> Asheville, NC USA > -> 828-6984887 > -> UberTechnoid@Home.com > -> ----------------------------------------------------------- > -> > -> > > From edick at idcomm.com Tue Nov 6 23:58:26 2001 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:33 2005 Subject: Available For Trade - Tandon 8" Floppy Drive - Model TM848E References: <3BE8CA3F.6DEA@verizon.net> Message-ID: <003901c16751$39432c40$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> These are pretty solid drives, to wit, I've had a couple of them in occasional service since about '86 or so, and, though they've had no maintenance, they've worked fine without it. A single drive might be just a mite hard to accomodate, though. Dick ----- Original Message ----- From: "Info from LSI" To: Sent: Tuesday, November 06, 2001 10:44 PM Subject: Available For Trade - Tandon 8" Floppy Drive - Model TM848E > Have available ... > > Tandon 8" Floppy Drive - Model TM848E > > http://members.bellatlantic.net/~vze2mj6m/tandon/1s.jpg > > http://members.bellatlantic.net/~vze2mj6m/tandon/2s.jpg > > We removed this from the machine it was in, so we know it > has never been handled roughly. We haven't tested it though, > just hadn't gotten around to it. Since we know most of you > hobbyist/collector types don't want to pay much for anything, > and since http://www.cadigital.com/flopdriv.htm prices them > at $149.00 and up, if anybody wants it, suggest something of > value you'd have to trade for it. > > From fmc at reanimators.org Tue Nov 6 23:59:29 2001 From: fmc at reanimators.org (Frank McConnell) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:33 2005 Subject: Rubber Restorer... In-Reply-To: ard@p850ug1.demon.co.uk's message of "Wed, 7 Nov 2001 00:49:28 +0000 (GMT)" References: Message-ID: <200111070559.fA75xTL20277@daemonweed.reanimators.org> ard@p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) wrote: > No. No mains connectors at all (obviously). In the UK, the standard mains > socket has shutters over the live/neutral contacts which are openned when > the earth pin enters its contact. So you can't stick bits of wire into > mains sockets. Well, that's no fun. How else are kids supposed to learn that sticking a neon lamp's leads into a wall socket is a bad idea? -Frank McConnell "I don't want a kinder, gentler world. I want one full of traps for the unwary, whirling blades, spite and radios which bear in large red letters the Dave-Barryesque legend 'OK TO USE IN TUB.'" -D. Henke From Arno_1983 at gmx.de Wed Nov 7 00:54:04 2001 From: Arno_1983 at gmx.de (Arno Kletzander) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:33 2005 Subject: Sun / CalComp Printer networking problems (was: Thick Ethernet/Sun networking problems) Message-ID: <9893.1005116044@www42.gmx.net> On Nov 5, 08:33 GMT, Pete Turnbull wrote: >If the LINK LED stays off, I'd be inclned to believe the interface isn't >working; on all the devices I've seen it, the LINK LED is on if the network >is live. Seems odd if the DATA LED blinks when there's traffic, though. I >wonder what that LINK LED really is for? According to the Ethernet Hardware Manual (we finally got a copy from somebody who also still uses such stuff...YEAH!), the LINK LED will only illuminate if there is an active connection via the 10baseT network interface, NOT when using the AUI port. BTW, this is the same way my PC's network interface uses it. Yesterday, I went and borrowed a cross-over TP cable from the teacher who does all the network stuff at our school. Connected it between my PC and the printer, let 'em power up...and pinging and telnetting both worked! I verified (by connecting the PC to the Transceiver the printer used WITH the drop cable the printer used, then telnetting to one of the SUNs) that transceiver and drop cable are okay. So I think the fault is on the AUI port of the printer's network card. But no signs of overheating etc. on the PCB... OK, so far for now... Arno Kletzander Arno_1983@gmx.de -- GMX - Die Kommunikationsplattform im Internet. http://www.gmx.net From mikeford at socal.rr.com Wed Nov 7 00:50:49 2001 From: mikeford at socal.rr.com (Mike Ford) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:33 2005 Subject: Rubber Restorer... In-Reply-To: <200111061954.fA6JsL523087@narnia.int.dittman.net> References: from "Mike Ford" at Nov 06, 2001 09:59:28 AM Message-ID: >No iodine crystals, either, I take it? > >NB: If you don't know what you could do with these you probably had a much >safer childhood. Ammonium triiodide isn't so dangerous. I had some kind of chemistry for the farm book with stuff like how to make fulminate of mercury and more serious stuff. From pete at dunnington.u-net.com Wed Nov 7 02:25:28 2001 From: pete at dunnington.u-net.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:33 2005 Subject: Sun / CalComp Printer networking problems (was: Thick Ethernet/Sun networking problems) In-Reply-To: Arno Kletzander "Sun / CalComp Printer networking problems (was: Thick Ethernet/Sun networking problems)" (Nov 7, 7:54) References: <9893.1005116044@www42.gmx.net> Message-ID: <10111070825.ZM3520@mindy.dunnington.u-net.com> On Nov 7, 7:54, Arno Kletzander wrote: > According to the Ethernet Hardware Manual (we finally got a copy from > somebody who also still uses such stuff...YEAH!), the LINK LED will only illuminate > if there is an active connection via the 10baseT network interface, NOT when > using the AUI port. BTW, this is the same way my PC's network interface uses > it. > > Yesterday, I went and borrowed a cross-over TP cable from the teacher who > does all the network stuff at our school. Connected it between my PC and the > printer, let 'em power up...and pinging and telnetting both worked! Ah. It's quite likely there are some links on the card which have to be set one way to use the 10baseT port, and the other way to use the transceiver... Look for a set of 6 links. -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager University of York From mikeford at socal.rr.com Wed Nov 7 02:29:16 2001 From: mikeford at socal.rr.com (Mike Ford) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:33 2005 Subject: Refilling Toner Carts (was RE: Rubber Restorer...) In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20011106210634.0283fff8@mail.30below.com> References: <20011107015303.XRPO20941.femail7.sdc1.sfba.home.com@BENCHB OX> Message-ID: >>For those on the list, you know what you are doing and know what you are >>getting into, but PLEASE tell your customers/clients to buy original toner >>carts or carts from a known maker (such as Xerox tonor carts for hp >>printers). I tell people the BEST route is to use factory replacements, but that they can save a LOT money if they are large toner users by buying from a "good" refiller. For the ultra cheapskate like myself its a no brainer, but I often have access to new HP toner cartridges CHEAPER than even the most low life refiller would offer. Inkjets though are another matter, this nonsense about a $35 cartridge in a $100 printer every $3 ream of paper is nuts. I just bought an Epson 880 for exactly this reason, that it uses cheap generic cartridges. BTW is there any "reasonable" way to clean out an old laserprinter? Not some toner spill fiasco, but just an older printer with a bit of this and that inside, minor toner, paper dust, etc. I am assuming that maybe the best long term is a total teardown, with a set of new rollers etc. From jhellige at earthlink.net Tue Nov 6 19:00:11 2001 From: jhellige at earthlink.net (Jeff Hellige) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:33 2005 Subject: Apple Floppy Drives (was: More Apple Pimpers) In-Reply-To: <200111070248.VAA32372@blount.mail.mindspring.net> Message-ID: <01Nov7.061220est.119120@gateway.mediacen.navy.mil> On 07-Nov-01, Louis Schulman wrote: > TRS-80 drives? I have a beautiful Model 1 setup. But talk about trashing > disks! And slow! My EI has the double-density upgrade but I've removed it because over the years it's slowly drifted to the point that it is no longer able to read disk. Still works fine in single-density mode though. Jeff -- ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- Amiga enthusiast and collector of early, classic microcomputers http://www.geocities.com/siliconvalley/lakes/6757 From jhellige at earthlink.net Tue Nov 6 19:04:15 2001 From: jhellige at earthlink.net (Jeff Hellige) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:33 2005 Subject: OS9 or Flex09 on 8" disk needed In-Reply-To: <3BE89C2A.C0A1BC6C@mail.verizon.net> Message-ID: <01Nov7.061623est.119145@gateway.mediacen.navy.mil> On 07-Nov-01, Eric Chomko wrote: > I missed this! I might be able to help you out. I purchased Tom Harmon's > (was SS-50 guy turned Amiga guy) stock of all his SS-50 stuff a few years > ago. I believe that in > that bunch of stuff may be what you are after. I knew you had the 8" drive setup but when we were talking about this a few months ago you had said that you thought all the 8" stuff was for the 6800. Jeff -- ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- Amiga enthusiast and collector of early, classic microcomputers http://www.geocities.com/siliconvalley/lakes/6757 From jfoust at threedee.com Wed Nov 7 06:53:47 2001 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:33 2005 Subject: Refilling Toner Carts (was RE: Rubber Restorer...) In-Reply-To: References: <5.1.0.14.2.20011106210634.0283fff8@mail.30below.com> <20011107015303.XRPO20941.femail7.sdc1.sfba.home.com@BENCHB OX> Message-ID: <4.3.2.7.0.20011107064835.00df2740@pc> At 12:29 AM 11/7/01 -0800, Mike Ford wrote: >Inkjets though are another matter, this nonsense about a $35 cartridge in a >$100 printer every $3 ream of paper is nuts. I just bought an Epson 880 for >exactly this reason, that it uses cheap generic cartridges. Make that a $40 set of three carts for the "free" printer that came with you new PC... Except they somehow forgot to put the $28 parallel or USB cable in the bundle, so would you like to purchase one now so you an print when you get home? It'll print about 50 pages for "free" and then you'll be getting "low ink warnings" (tied directly via the Internet to the finance department of the printer company) until you refill. It's often cheaper to get a new printer because of some insane rebate scheme. For a classic note, visit http://www.cfriends.com/ for reinking supplies. Remember the MacInker? Same folks. - John From dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com Wed Nov 7 07:08:13 2001 From: dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com (Douglas Quebbeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:33 2005 Subject: Clearly OT (but what the hell...) (was: food Message-ID: <7A9BACCEF0171D4FB77019F5104CDD3722587F@jeffserver.tegjeff.com> > Minced sheep's liver, lungs, and heart (the "pluck"), mixed with oatmeal, > suet, and spices, sewn into the sheep's stomach bag and boiled. I grew up > in Edinburgh with the stuff and I hate it, but many consider it a delicacy. > Traditionally served with boiled mashed potatoes ("tatties") and turnip > ("neeps") and on special occasions like Burn's Night with a glass of > whisky. Search for "Macsween" on the web -- theirs are widely rated the > best. This Son of Clan Keith is wondering which night of the week that Burn's Night falls on? ;-) -dq From SUPRDAVE at aol.com Wed Nov 7 07:15:28 2001 From: SUPRDAVE at aol.com (SUPRDAVE@aol.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:33 2005 Subject: Apple Floppy Drives (was: More Apple Pimpers) Message-ID: In a message dated 11/7/2001 1:00:59 AM Eastern Standard Time, edick@idcomm.com writes: << In 1981, the PC was released, and that was the death knell for computers like the Apple. Even so, they hung on for several years. Even devoted Apple][ fans, though, have, for the most part, sobered up enough since the '80's to recognize that the Apple floppy disk subsystem wasn't as solid as one might have hoped. >> ??? whaddya mean not solid? The ONLY problem I've seen is issues related to when one drive is out of alignment and as a result, may or may not be able to read disks from another drive. The disk ][ was simple, clever and RELIABLE. Please quantify your statement! From dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com Wed Nov 7 07:20:19 2001 From: dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com (Douglas Quebbeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:33 2005 Subject: More Apple Pimpers Message-ID: <7A9BACCEF0171D4FB77019F5104CDD37225880@jeffserver.tegjeff.com> > Forgive us our CPU. We know not what we do. > > It wasn't clear to me in your original post that you were > referring to the Apple II diskette drive, but I understand > now. And yeah - the IWM (Incredible Woz Machine) diskette > controller WAS fairly sensitive. I never owned an Apple II, > but heard about them. Craig- Macs up through at least the MacPlus have a single-chip implemntation of the IWM that they used for both the never-shipped Twiggy drives (never shipped in Macs) and the later 400k/800k 3.5" floppies. Just FYI... Regards, -dq From spectre at stockholm.ptloma.edu Wed Nov 7 08:09:17 2001 From: spectre at stockholm.ptloma.edu (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:33 2005 Subject: Rubber Restorer...u In-Reply-To: from Mike Ford at "Nov 6, 1 10:50:49 pm" Message-ID: <200111071409.GAA10496@stockholm.ptloma.edu> > >NB: If you don't know what you could do with these you probably had a much > >safer childhood. > > Ammonium triiodide isn't so dangerous. I had some kind of chemistry for the > farm book with stuff like how to make fulminate of mercury and more serious > stuff. Ah, mercury fulminate. In high school AP biology, the only other student and I (it was a small school :-) both knew the book right and left, and the teacher knew it, so we spent most of the time making explosives out of the chemical stock. We made a nice quantity of that stuff and blew up a number of petri dishes with it between classes, and fortunately most of the shards blew away before anyone noticed. -- ----------------------------- personal page: http://www.armory.com/~spectre/ -- Cameron Kaiser, Point Loma Nazarene University * ckaiser@stockholm.ptloma.edu -- MOVIE IDEA: The Never-Ending E-mail Signature ------------------------------ From dittman at dittman.net Wed Nov 7 08:09:24 2001 From: dittman at dittman.net (Eric Dittman) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:33 2005 Subject: Rubber Restorer... In-Reply-To: from "Mike Ford" at Nov 06, 2001 10:50:49 PM Message-ID: <200111071409.fA7E9Oj03158@narnia.int.dittman.net> > >No iodine crystals, either, I take it? > > > >NB: If you don't know what you could do with these you probably had a much > >safer childhood. > > Ammonium triiodide isn't so dangerous. I had some kind of chemistry for the > farm book with stuff like how to make fulminate of mercury and more serious > stuff. Ammonium tri-iodide can be dangerous if mishandled. There's also the common mis-belief that it is safe when wet. -- Eric Dittman dittman@dittman.net Check out the DEC Enthusiasts Club at http://www.dittman.net/ From curt at atari-history.com Wed Nov 7 08:13:16 2001 From: curt at atari-history.com (Curt Vendel) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:33 2005 Subject: 8 inch floppy drives References: <3BE8A47E.AAB567D9@mail.verizon.net> Message-ID: <008001c16796$59a6bf20$2fb1ff0a@cvendel> If anyone is looking for anything Atari, here are some sources: B&C Computervisions www.myatari.com (Carries nearly anything for Atari games, computers) Best Electronics www.best-electronics-ca.com (This is the place for any and every tiny little nut, both, chip and component that was used in nearly every Atari product ever made) Atari Classics www.atariclassics.com (1.2 million brand new Atari 2600 & 7800 video game cartridges, $2 each) Happ Controls www.happcontrols.com (Supplier of parts, monitors and controllers to the coin-op industry) Curt ----- Original Message ----- From: "Eric Chomko" To: Sent: Tuesday, November 06, 2001 10:03 PM Subject: Re: 8 inch floppy drives > Reminds me of Bravo Sierra that carries just about everything you need for your > Atari. They have it but it'll cost ya! > > Eric > > Jeff Hellige wrote: > > > >On Sun, 4 Nov 2001, Richard Erlacher wrote: > > > > > >> I've not purchased anything from them since '77, when I bought a couple of > > >> "digital" cassette drives from them. Their 8" drive prices are > > >>about what the > > > > drive prices were back when the technolgy was new and current, > > >though the drives > > >> may not be. > > > > > >Erm! The last time that I checked, Dick, admittedly not within a month > > >or so, they were asking $99 each for them. That is vastly different > > >from the prices of the '70s & '80s! > > > > Actually most of them are priced at nearly $200 or more. > > It's as if they are old stock and they've never changed the price. > > > > Jeff > > -- > > Home of the TRS-80 Model 2000 FAQ File > > http://www.cchaven.com > > http://www.geocities.com/siliconvalley/lakes/6757 > > From dittman at dittman.net Wed Nov 7 08:17:31 2001 From: dittman at dittman.net (Eric Dittman) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:33 2005 Subject: Apple Floppy Drives (was: More Apple Pimpers) In-Reply-To: <001d01c16750$2f2b5c60$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> from "Richard Erlacher" at Nov 06, 2001 10:51:02 PM Message-ID: <200111071417.fA7EHVC03187@narnia.int.dittman.net> > Ugh! ... you'd be hard pressed to pick a worse example of a "standard" inteface > to a floppy disk than the one used in the TRS-80, though lots of allegations > were made about it. The TRS-80 is a poor example, apparenly right up to the > model IV, and I know very little about its reputation. Tony Duell recently > pointed out that his early experience with that indicated that it worked fairly > well when the drives were well maintained. I only became familiar with the > TRS-80 as a problem to be solved. Actually, the Model I with a daughterboard data separator or double-density upgrade worked pretty well. I never had problems with the Model III or 4 disk systems. My Ampro LittleBoard never had any problems, either, along with my home-brew 8085 CP/M system. -- Eric Dittman dittman@dittman.net Check out the DEC Enthusiasts Club at http://www.dittman.net/ From chris at mainecoon.com Wed Nov 7 08:58:17 2001 From: chris at mainecoon.com (Chris Kennedy) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:33 2005 Subject: Clearly OT (but what the hell...) (was: food In-Reply-To: <7A9BACCEF0171D4FB77019F5104CDD3722587F@jeffserver.tegjeff.com> Message-ID: DQ wrote: > This Son of Clan Keith is wondering which night of the week that > Burn's Night falls on? January 25th. :-) -- Chris Kennedy chris@mainecoon.com http://www.mainecoon.com PGP fingerprint: 4E99 10B6 7253 B048 6685 6CBC 55E1 20A3 108D AB97 From edick at idcomm.com Wed Nov 7 09:11:40 2001 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:33 2005 Subject: Clearly OT (but what the hell...) (was: food References: <200111061248.HAA08280@wordstock.com> <5.1.0.14.2.20011106143744.02a67250@mail.30below.com> <005501c16705$b3c034a0$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> <3BE8C64C.7AD4F4A9@internet1.net> Message-ID: <001501c1679e$80b31c00$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> I got in the habit of taking my boys to a cafeteria for the occasional meal when they were with me. The purpose was to get them to try things, which I'd let them pick, but they had to ead a couple of bites and then decide for themselves whether they wanted it or not. I told them they could decide for themselves whether they liked a given item, but they did have to decide on the basis of having tasted it, not just on the basis of what someone else had told them. It wasn't unusual to see them reject some veggie or fish, but it also wasn't unusual to see them reject something and then come back to it later and give it another try. I don't remember ever seeing them reject something and later go back for another helping, though, so it did take a little time. This was all training to permit them to acquire their own taste rather than simply reflecting what was currently popular, as may youngsters do. Though they both like Mexican food, which is popular here in Denver, neither of them willingly eats at Taco Bell. I find that to be clear evidence of a relative success of my efforts to make them form their own opinions. There's no accounting for taste, but it's important that it be one's own taste that's being used as the yardstick. Dick ----- Original Message ----- From: "Chad Fernandez" To: Sent: Tuesday, November 06, 2001 10:27 PM Subject: Re: Clearly OT (but what the hell...) (was: food > I was a witness to my mother finding out that my adopted sister truly > didn't like lima beans. We were all sitting at the table..... "come on > Andrea, eat those lima beans....... Mom, I don't like them...... eat > them anyways......GAG BARF (literally :-)...... okay Andrea, you don't > have to eat lima beans anymore :-)" > > Different situation than your kids, but funny! > > Then there was the time, I saw her literally force a banana down her > throat as a two year old..... like we were going to take it away or > something, if she didn't get it down right away. > > Richard Erlacher wrote: > > > > When my boys both were still well under 10 years old, they suddenly decided they > > didn't like mushrooms. > > From uban at ubanproductions.com Wed Nov 7 09:22:59 2001 From: uban at ubanproductions.com (Tom Uban) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:33 2005 Subject: KM11 and RK11-D In-Reply-To: References: <01C162EE.7A1C5460@mse-d03> Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.20011107092259.008e3210@ubanproductions.com> Hi Tony, I was wondering if you had ever used a KM11 with a RK11-D ? If so, can you provide some direction in its use? My manuals only have a couple of paragraphs on the KM11 and pretty much only tell me which slot it should be installed in. --tnx --tom From bpope at wordstock.com Wed Nov 7 09:35:37 2001 From: bpope at wordstock.com (Bryan Pope) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:33 2005 Subject: Atari sources, was 8" floppies In-Reply-To: <008001c16796$59a6bf20$2fb1ff0a@cvendel> from "Curt Vendel" at Nov 7, 01 09:13:16 am Message-ID: <200111071535.KAA22782@wordstock.com> > > If anyone is looking for anything Atari, here are some sources: > > B&C Computervisions > www.myatari.com > (Carries nearly anything for Atari games, computers) > > Best Electronics > www.best-electronics-ca.com > (This is the place for any and every tiny little nut, both, chip and > component that was used in nearly every Atari product ever made) > > Atari Classics > www.atariclassics.com > (1.2 million brand new Atari 2600 & 7800 video game cartridges, $2 each) O'Shea Ltd... http://www.oshealtd.com/ 1 million Atari games stored in a limestone cave, lots of t-shirts and other Atari branded clothing. > > Happ Controls > www.happcontrols.com > (Supplier of parts, monitors and controllers to the coin-op industry) At http://www.goatstore.com they have Atari stuff++ and these JAMMA joysticks that look *very* sturdy and comfortable. Cheers, Bryan From edick at idcomm.com Wed Nov 7 10:06:59 2001 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:33 2005 Subject: Apple Floppy Drives (was: More Apple Pimpers) References: Message-ID: <002501c167a6$3b4b30a0$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> A couple of factors are relevant here, namely my own experience with the Apple][ series, and that of the guys who advise me on these matters. I've never been a frequent Apple user. That decision was made back in '81 or so, when the ][+ was really taking off and swamping the market and I'd revisited the notion of getting one, as many people I knew used them. In the interim, I'd had routine experience every day since Jan '80 with 8" drives, and found them to be completely reliable. I'd never, ever, seen a disk subsystem failure in any of my hardware, nor had I observed one in anyone else's, up to the point at which I observed the "normal" operation of an Apple system. This exposed me to floppy disk subsystem failures, which I didn't even know existed, escept in theory. Disk subsystem failures didn't even exist in my reality up to that point. That clearly put me off the Apple, when I was told that what I'd seen was pretty much normal operation of an Apple. My recent venture into the Apple world simply reinforced that original shock at dealing with disk subsystem failures for the first time. Since I was dealing with folks who'd been serious authors of Apple-based software I assumed the comments they made on the basis of about 6-7 years' experience with the Apple][ to be reasonably reliable. The comments they made were consistent a couple of weeks back with what had been said about the Apple disk subsystem back in '80-'81, so I bought it. The fact that it lined up perfectly with the experience I'd recently had didn't surprise me one bit. Another interesting thing, by the way, is that not a one of those fellows who used the ][+ all the time, with or without 8" disks, uses any Apple products today. If you think that the consensus among those professional users of the Apple][ back in the day when it was, in fact, the tool many people chose to use, is wrong, then I'd suggest you take it up with them. I've reported on my own limited experience and the experiences of others, anecdotally reflected in a general agreement among those experts, both of which seem to align quite well. >From 1977-1986, I was around microcomputer systems based on S-100 hardware that used standard sorts of controllers almost all the time. Certainly when I was at my own facility, where I had that 6502 box that used the 8" drives and a couple of CCS setups, not to mention yet another couple of CP/M based systems with 8" drives that were occasionally used. Additionally, my clients used other sorts of hardware based on industry-standard soft-sectored controllers with CP/M, or on Pascal engines, which were popular back then. I just wasn't accustomed to seeing disk system failures. The fact that they occurred was not a major factor in my life. Apple users constantly concerned themselves with backup copies of their vital software and data. I made spares, but didn't lose sleep over it. A few weeks back, I had someone read the 6502 FOCAL source for me so I could distribute it to readers of this list. The source diskette was THE first floppy diskette I evern owned. It had never been rewritten, reformatted, or cleaned up in any way. Now, I've got Apple][ diskettes that date back that far too, but it's well to consider that the original boot diskettes that I used on my homebrew 6502 box running APEX, are the ones that Wayne Wall made for me back in '80. I've never needed new ones. That's certainly not the sort of experience people around here who've been Apple users since '80 or so have talked about. Dick ----- Original Message ----- From: To: Sent: Wednesday, November 07, 2001 6:15 AM Subject: Re: Apple Floppy Drives (was: More Apple Pimpers) > In a message dated 11/7/2001 1:00:59 AM Eastern Standard Time, > edick@idcomm.com writes: > > << In 1981, the PC was released, and that was the death knell for computers > like > the Apple. Even so, they hung on for several years. Even devoted Apple][ > fans, > though, have, for the most part, sobered up enough since the '80's to > recognize > that the Apple floppy disk subsystem wasn't as solid as one might have > hoped. >> > > ??? whaddya mean not solid? The ONLY problem I've seen is issues related to > when one drive is out of alignment and as a result, may or may not be able to > read disks from another drive. The disk ][ was simple, clever and RELIABLE. > Please quantify your statement! > > From DAW at yalepress3.unipress.yale.edu Wed Nov 7 10:13:30 2001 From: DAW at yalepress3.unipress.yale.edu (David Woyciesjes) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:33 2005 Subject: Rubber Restorer... Message-ID: <9011A52E011ED311B4280004AC1BA6150146723C@yalepress3.unipress.yale.edu> ! > > But any kid knows that you can get some better acid out of the car ! > > battery. ! ! On Tue, 6 Nov 2001, Tony Duell wrote: ! > Alas many car batteries (at least in the UK) are 'sealed ! > for life' so ! > it's less easy to extract some sulphuric acid, at least not without ! > damaging the battery enough to get noticed :-(. ! ! In the US, MOST of the "sealed" batteries actually have ! access holes into ! each cell, that are hidden under a cap or tape. Nah, even easier. Just take a look at a motorcycle, snowmobile, or jetski, or whatever else uses a motorcycle sized battery. They (almost) all have caps, to refille the levels. Replacement motorcycle batteries come with the acid in a seperate bottle, that you have to pour into the cells after you buy it. And there is _always_some acid left over, once you put the proper amounts in... --- David A Woyciesjes --- C & IS Support Specialist --- Yale University Press --- mailto:david.woyciesjes@yale.edu --- (203) 432-0953 --- ICQ # - 905818 From edick at idcomm.com Wed Nov 7 10:29:23 2001 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:33 2005 Subject: Apple Floppy Drives (was: More Apple Pimpers) References: <200111071417.fA7EHVC03187@narnia.int.dittman.net> Message-ID: <003601c167a9$5df732e0$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> There were several "fixes" provided by third-party vendors that got around the very weak clock extraction logic used by the Model 1. Several of them addressed other weaknesses in the TRS-80 architecture, but the FD interface seems to have been the most commonly addressed problem. These hardware patches came along enough later that they're not germane to the current discussion of the Apple][ disk system, however. In fact the TRS-80 only came up as a contemporaneous "system" that was available over about the same period that the Apple][ was being sold. I doubt that anyone will argue that the TRS-80 was better-integrated, or even that it was more reliable. It's well to consider that Tandy came out with three different models over the market life of the Apple][/][+. It's also worth remembering that microcomputers were a new concept back then, and their makers hadn't yet learned how to make them reliable enough to make them useful (yet). In that respect, Apple was probably out in front of its competitors. The only sorts of systems that were inexpensive and accessible enough to meet the needs of home users were the buy-it-by-the-board systems that required you do your own integration, which was technologically "beyond" the typical home user. The Apple][+ offered a system that was pretty complete as delivered, if not as reliable as the "standard" disk subsystem, that was only a part of the whole, and it was capable of twice the data capcity, it was, as a system, smaller, quieter, and more convenient, than the TRS-80, which was it's only "real" competitor in 1980. In the same stores where you could buy Apple systems in '82 or so (remember Computerland?) you often could choose between NorthStar, Vector Graphics, and Cromemco systems, all offered as ready-to-run integrated setups, but they were quite a bit (often >2x) more costly. The only player in Apple's arena, still, was the Tandy offering. Dick ----- Original Message ----- From: "Eric Dittman" To: Sent: Wednesday, November 07, 2001 7:17 AM Subject: Re: Apple Floppy Drives (was: More Apple Pimpers) > > Ugh! ... you'd be hard pressed to pick a worse example of a "standard" inteface > > to a floppy disk than the one used in the TRS-80, though lots of allegations > > were made about it. The TRS-80 is a poor example, apparenly right up to the > > model IV, and I know very little about its reputation. Tony Duell recently > > pointed out that his early experience with that indicated that it worked fairly > > well when the drives were well maintained. I only became familiar with the > > TRS-80 as a problem to be solved. > > Actually, the Model I with a daughterboard data separator or double-density upgrade > worked pretty well. I never had problems with the Model III or 4 disk systems. > > My Ampro LittleBoard never had any problems, either, along with my home-brew 8085 > CP/M system. > -- > Eric Dittman > dittman@dittman.net > Check out the DEC Enthusiasts Club at http://www.dittman.net/ > > From SUPRDAVE at aol.com Wed Nov 7 10:35:28 2001 From: SUPRDAVE at aol.com (SUPRDAVE@aol.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:33 2005 Subject: Rubber Restorer... Message-ID: <40.13ed4982.291abcd0@aol.com> In a message dated 11/7/2001 10:22:22 AM Central Standard Time, DAW@yalepress3.unipress.yale.edu writes: > Nah, even easier. Just take a look at a motorcycle, snowmobile, or > jetski, or whatever else uses a motorcycle sized battery. They (almost) all > have caps, to refille the levels. > Replacement motorcycle batteries come with the acid in a seperate > bottle, that you have to pour into the cells after you buy it. And there is > _always_some acid left over, once you put the proper amounts in... > > --- David A Woyciesjes > In the case of a scooter battery I bought last year, there was a box of acid to install, but there was none left over. why would you not want to add all that was provided? There was removable caps, but it was only for opening it up once to add acid, and then forever sealed. One thing I can say about those batteries, they sure don't last long for being so expensive! If you let them go dead just once, they never recover. clearing the HYPE about bioterrorism www.formatc.org/terrorism.htm -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20011107/f756b921/attachment.html From DAW at yalepress3.unipress.yale.edu Wed Nov 7 11:18:03 2001 From: DAW at yalepress3.unipress.yale.edu (David Woyciesjes) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:33 2005 Subject: Rubber Restorer... Message-ID: <9011A52E011ED311B4280004AC1BA61501467240@yalepress3.unipress.yale.edu> ! ! Nah, even easier. Just take a look at a motorcycle, ! ! snowmobile, or jetski, or whatever else uses a motorcycle ! ! sized battery. They (almost) all have caps, to refille the ! ! levels. ! ! Replacement motorcycle batteries come with the acid in ! ! a seperate bottle, that you have to pour into the cells ! ! after you buy it. And there is _always_some acid left over, ! ! once you put the proper amounts in... ! ! ! !--- David A Woyciesjes ! ! From: SUPRDAVE@aol.com [mailto:SUPRDAVE@aol.com] ! ! In the case of a scooter battery I bought last year, there ! was a box of acid to install, but there was none left over. ! why would you not want to add all that was provided? You want to follow the instructions. Mine said to fill to a certain level. If you put in too much, it could boil up and go boom. Manufacturers give a little extra, to account for air pressure differences (due to altitude and such), and to account for spillage too. ! There ! was removable caps, but it was only for opening it up once ! to add acid, and then forever sealed. Nothing a pair of pliers can't fix. ! One thing I can say ! about those batteries, they sure don't last long for being ! so expensive! If you let them go dead just once, they never ! recover. If they get drained too far, yes. But that (normally) doesn't happen very often. --- David A Woyciesjes --- C & IS Support Specialist --- Yale University Press --- mailto:david.woyciesjes@yale.edu --- (203) 432-0953 --- ICQ # - 905818 From dittman at dittman.net Wed Nov 7 11:22:33 2001 From: dittman at dittman.net (Eric Dittman) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:33 2005 Subject: Apple Floppy Drives (was: More Apple Pimpers) In-Reply-To: <003601c167a9$5df732e0$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> from "Richard Erlacher" at Nov 07, 2001 09:29:23 AM Message-ID: <200111071722.fA7HMXL03706@narnia.int.dittman.net> > There were several "fixes" provided by third-party vendors that got around the > very weak clock extraction logic used by the Model 1. Several of them addressed > other weaknesses in the TRS-80 architecture, but the FD interface seems to have > been the most commonly addressed problem. > > These hardware patches came along enough later that they're not germane to the > current discussion of the Apple][ disk system, however... I seem to remember the add-on data separators came out very soon after the release of the expansion interface. The double density daughterboards came out a little later. -- Eric Dittman dittman@dittman.net Check out the DEC Enthusiasts Club at http://www.dittman.net/ From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Wed Nov 7 11:27:55 2001 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (Allison) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:33 2005 Subject: Apple Floppy Drives (was: More Apple Pimpers) Message-ID: <000c01c167b1$8aaab480$6b7b7b7b@ajp> General comment, Most 8" systems were expected be and behaved reliably and have at least 250k of space. Most 5.25" systems could be reliable but, often weren't. I'll restrict comments to 5.25" for the later reason. Most of the complaints I've had with disk systems be they Apple or not were often in this order. 1- Drives (SA400 was pure garbage!!!) 2- horribly botched controllers (TRS-80 without mods) 3- software such as disk drivers that would hang if no media or errors 4- floppy drives/controlers that would "bite" the media on power up or down. meaning it would write trash due to no write locks. 5- not enough space The apple-II was plagued with #1 and somewhat with #3 depending on OS and definately #4. Space was a problem for many users(#5) Trash-80 was 1 through 5 example. NS* mostly #4 had to be watched if the drives were seperately powered and earlier units were SA400 (#1 problem). The SD controller while bullet proof was space poor at 90k per drive (#5). CCS used 8" disks and reliable controller. It was however prone to #4. Many S100 system that used 8" drives and the better 5.25 drives fell in this realm of reliability though most with 5.25 were pretty cramped until 360k(DD) or 720->780k(QD aka two sided DD) formats were common. Of the most reliable my AmproLB+, Kaypro 4/84 with Advent turborom,NS* (both SD and DD) and most of the post 1981 systems in the commercial systems space. My expectations of reliable were set by minicomputers long before micros I'd worked with where if the disk didn't work it was something I did wrong. Of all, my opinion is that floppies were ok but the first real improvement was the 3.5" drives(720k and 1.44m generation) with the power fail logic on board. They offered good storage, small size, lower power, good reliability and quieter than the whole lot. Allison From ernestls at home.com Wed Nov 7 11:41:32 2001 From: ernestls at home.com (Ernest) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:33 2005 Subject: Apple Floppy Drives (was: More Apple Pimpers) In-Reply-To: <003601c167a9$5df732e0$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> Message-ID: More than a 70 Disk ][ drives have passed through my hands in the last few years, and I have at leasted tested their fuctionality with a boot disk before passing them on to other folks, and easily 99% of those drives were still working just fine -even to the point reading from a tired old boot disk. A few of the drives were simply dead, and one had been dropped off a boat into Puget Sound, causing corrosion on the aluminum parts but over all, I would say the Disk ][ drives were and still are very reliable. I have yet to find a non-working Disk ][ controller card. Even the off-brand and unlabeled clone controllers have seemed to be just as reliable. Generally, the only drives/controllers that I've ever truly loathed were the ones on the Tandy Model 12/16 computers. They seem to feed on 8" floppys, and of the ones that worked at all, there was a one in four chance that the bootup would fail from the start. E. > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-classiccmp@classiccmp.org > [mailto:owner-classiccmp@classiccmp.org]On Behalf Of Richard Erlacher > Sent: Wednesday, November 07, 2001 8:29 AM > To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org > Subject: Re: Apple Floppy Drives (was: More Apple Pimpers) > > > There were several "fixes" provided by third-party vendors that > got around the > very weak clock extraction logic used by the Model 1. Several of > them addressed > other weaknesses in the TRS-80 architecture, but the FD interface > seems to have > been the most commonly addressed problem. > > These hardware patches came along enough later that they're not > germane to the > current discussion of the Apple][ disk system, however. In fact > the TRS-80 only > came up as a contemporaneous "system" that was available over > about the same > period that the Apple][ was being sold. I doubt that anyone will > argue that the > TRS-80 was better-integrated, or even that it was more reliable. > It's well to > consider that Tandy came out with three different models over the > market life of > the Apple][/][+. It's also worth remembering that microcomputers > were a new > concept back then, and their makers hadn't yet learned how to > make them reliable > enough to make them useful (yet). In that respect, Apple was > probably out in > front of its competitors. The only sorts of systems that were > inexpensive and > accessible enough to meet the needs of home users were the > buy-it-by-the-board > systems that required you do your own integration, which was > technologically > "beyond" the typical home user. > > The Apple][+ offered a system that was pretty complete as > delivered, if not as > reliable as the "standard" disk subsystem, that was only a part > of the whole, > and it was capable of twice the data capcity, it was, as a > system, smaller, > quieter, and more convenient, than the TRS-80, which was it's only "real" > competitor in 1980. In the same stores where you could buy Apple > systems in '82 > or so (remember Computerland?) you often could choose between > NorthStar, Vector > Graphics, and Cromemco systems, all offered as ready-to-run > integrated setups, > but they were quite a bit (often >2x) more costly. The only > player in Apple's > arena, still, was the Tandy offering. > > Dick > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Eric Dittman" > To: > Sent: Wednesday, November 07, 2001 7:17 AM > Subject: Re: Apple Floppy Drives (was: More Apple Pimpers) > > > > > Ugh! ... you'd be hard pressed to pick a worse example of a "standard" > inteface > > > to a floppy disk than the one used in the TRS-80, though lots > of allegations > > > were made about it. The TRS-80 is a poor example, apparenly > right up to the > > > model IV, and I know very little about its reputation. Tony > Duell recently > > > pointed out that his early experience with that indicated > that it worked > fairly > > > well when the drives were well maintained. I only became > familiar with the > > > TRS-80 as a problem to be solved. > > > > Actually, the Model I with a daughterboard data separator or > double-density > upgrade > > worked pretty well. I never had problems with the Model III or 4 disk > systems. > > > > My Ampro LittleBoard never had any problems, either, along with > my home-brew > 8085 > > CP/M system. > > -- > > Eric Dittman > > dittman@dittman.net > > Check out the DEC Enthusiasts Club at http://www.dittman.net/ > > > > > From korpela at ssl.berkeley.edu Wed Nov 7 12:07:40 2001 From: korpela at ssl.berkeley.edu (Eric J. Korpela) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:33 2005 Subject: Apple Floppy Drives (was: More Apple Pimpers) In-Reply-To: from "SUPRDAVE@aol.com" at "Nov 7, 2001 08:15:28 am" Message-ID: <200111071807.fA7I7ea27799@jill.ssl.berkeley.edu> >> the Apple floppy disk subsystem wasn't as solid as one might have >> hoped. > > ??? whaddya mean not solid? The ONLY problem I've seen is issues related to > when one drive is out of alignment and as a result, may or may not be able to > read disks from another drive. The disk ][ was simple, clever and RELIABLE. > Please quantify your statement! I have to agree with Dick. Simple and clever, yes, but Disk ][ was not all that bullet proof. The mechanism was reliable. I rarely recall failure of the mechanism. But I certainly recall disks being rendered unreadable by leaving a disk in the drive when powering down. Lifetimes of frequently used disks were on order of months, even if the disks were write protected. Later Disk ][ drives didn't seem to have as many problems. I assume there was some modification to the circuitry to prevent stray currents in the heads and to clamp surges on power down. The problems resurfaced in some //c internal drives. I don't recall having any problems with the Apple 5.25 (plastic case, D connector) drives. I don't recall having as many problems with drives on other systems with the exception of a Kaypro that would wipe most any disk over the course of a couple hours. I only had access to the one Kaypro, so I don't know if the problem was widespread. Eric From erd_6502 at yahoo.com Wed Nov 7 13:05:55 2001 From: erd_6502 at yahoo.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:33 2005 Subject: Rubber Restorer... In-Reply-To: <200111070559.fA75xTL20277@daemonweed.reanimators.org> Message-ID: <20011107190555.81877.qmail@web20102.mail.yahoo.com> --- Frank McConnell wrote: > ard@p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) wrote: > > No. No mains connectors at all (obviously). In the UK, the standard > mains > > socket has shutters over the live/neutral contacts which are opened > when > > the earth pin enters its contact. So you can't stick bits of wire into > > mains sockets. > > Well, that's no fun. How else are kids supposed to learn that > sticking a neon lamp's leads into a wall socket is a bad idea? Bobby-pins - 18 mo old... 110VAC is soooo much safer to get into than 240VAC. > -Frank McConnell > "I don't want a kinder, gentler world. I want one full of traps for the > unwary, whirling blades, spite and radios which bear in large red > letters the Dave-Barryesque legend 'OK TO USE IN TUB.'" -D. Henke I'm personally waiting for a major appliance (microwave, refrigerator, etc.) to come with the warning "Do Not Lick". I in-fact want to get a roll of 5-7cm round stickers with the "not" logo over a protruding tongue (like the one on the cover of The Rolling Stones "Tattoo You"). I expect them to end up in interesting places. -ethan __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Find a job, post your resume. http://careers.yahoo.com From erd_6502 at yahoo.com Wed Nov 7 13:11:16 2001 From: erd_6502 at yahoo.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:33 2005 Subject: Reconstructing "King's Quest" In-Reply-To: <200111070346.TAA11208@stockholm.ptloma.edu> Message-ID: <20011107191116.69016.qmail@web20108.mail.yahoo.com> --- Cameron Kaiser wrote: > The beauty of this particular edition is that the copy protection is > stripped. It runs without comment on the 486. PC Gamer really outdid > themselves with that cover disc; it contains full versions of Duke Nukem > II, Alone in the Dark, the original Monkey Island, Terminal Velocity, > Descent, XCOM, Wing Commander I (alas rewritten for Win32, eyugh), Ultima > 1: The First Age of Darkness, Red Baron, Betrayal at Krondor, Links, > Need For Speed 1, Ultima Underworld, and, of course, KQ1. All of them are > completely legal editions, and most of these games are on-topic :-) Wish I'd know about this when it was out. :-( Lotsa good stuff there. I never did play Monkey Island all the way through. -ethan __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Find a job, post your resume. http://careers.yahoo.com From erd_6502 at yahoo.com Wed Nov 7 13:24:53 2001 From: erd_6502 at yahoo.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:33 2005 Subject: Classic Gaming Collections In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20011107192453.70983.qmail@web20108.mail.yahoo.com> --- Jeff Hellige wrote: > >Glad I got everyone's attention but no one else seems to be listing what > >gaming items they have which was the original question asked. > > Well if it's a list you want, here's what I have: > > - Magnavox Odyssey^2 > - Atari Lynx II > - Radio Shack TV Scoreboard I _used_ to have more of this stuff when I was a kid, but four boys in a house are not easy on consumer electronics... (we played a Tank game to death - first breaking the joysticks (which i fixed as a kid), then wearing out the fire buttons (which I also replaced), and finally killing the electronics. Wish I could find another one of those. I currently have only a few things of this nature: - Magnavox Odessey 1 (and a box of parts - my original one died when I was a teenager and was summarily stripped) - Atari Lynx (not sure I or II, but I have a couple and at least two copies of Xenophobe for linked play) - RCA Studio II (and 4 carts I just got at the Dayton ComputerFest) No Atari 2600 or Coleco or any of the other cool stuff from the old days. 8-bit Ninetendo and Sega Genesis and the like are too new to be interesting. The cool part about what I do have is that each one is special in its own way - the Magnavox, as most of you probably know, is analog. The Lynx is an early color hand-held, created by former Amiga guys, and is 6502-based (one of my favorite processors). The Studio-II has an 1802 inside, one of my other favorite processors. I've heard of a home-computer kit for the Studio II and someone (perhaps on this list) promised to send me copies of the info, but it's never materialized. -ethan __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Find a job, post your resume. http://careers.yahoo.com From erd_6502 at yahoo.com Wed Nov 7 13:27:48 2001 From: erd_6502 at yahoo.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:33 2005 Subject: Rubber Restorer... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20011107192748.70186.qmail@web20106.mail.yahoo.com> --- Tony Duell wrote: > As I said, doubtless a Darwin Awards candidate could find some way to > harm himself with the kit (swallowing parts of it would be one way). As I said in another post - "Do Not Lick" ;-) -ethan __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Find a job, post your resume. http://careers.yahoo.com From vance at ikickass.org Wed Nov 7 13:34:36 2001 From: vance at ikickass.org (One Without Reason) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:33 2005 Subject: Rubber Restorer... In-Reply-To: <200111071409.fA7E9Oj03158@narnia.int.dittman.net> Message-ID: Probably the most dangerous thing I've done in a chemistry lab is the distillation of diazomethane. Peace... Sridhar On Wed, 7 Nov 2001, Eric Dittman wrote: > > >No iodine crystals, either, I take it? > > > > > >NB: If you don't know what you could do with these you probably had a much > > >safer childhood. > > > > Ammonium triiodide isn't so dangerous. I had some kind of chemistry for the > > farm book with stuff like how to make fulminate of mercury and more serious > > stuff. > > Ammonium tri-iodide can be dangerous if mishandled. There's also the > common mis-belief that it is safe when wet. > -- > Eric Dittman > dittman@dittman.net > Check out the DEC Enthusiasts Club at http://www.dittman.net/ > From dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com Wed Nov 7 14:21:54 2001 From: dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com (Douglas Quebbeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:33 2005 Subject: Clearly OT (but what the hell...) (was: food Message-ID: <7A9BACCEF0171D4FB77019F5104CDD37225883@jeffserver.tegjeff.com> > DQ wrote: > > > This Son of Clan Keith is wondering which night of the week that > > Burn's Night falls on? > > January 25th. :-) Too bad, was hoping to make it a weekly afair... ;-) -q From vze2wsvr at verizon.net Wed Nov 7 15:03:16 2001 From: vze2wsvr at verizon.net (Eric Chomko) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:34 2005 Subject: Apple Floppy Drives (was: More Apple Pimpers) References: <000c01c167b1$8aaab480$6b7b7b7b@ajp> Message-ID: <3BE9A194.91F14454@verizon.net> Allison wrote: > General comment, > > Most 8" systems were expected be and behaved reliably and have > at least 250k of space. > > Most 5.25" systems could be reliable but, often weren't. I'll restrict > comments to 5.25" for the later reason. > > Most of the complaints I've had with disk systems be they Apple or not > were often in this order. > > 1- Drives (SA400 was pure garbage!!!) Whoa! I bought my Smoke Signal Broadcasting disk system back in 1978 with two SA400 drives. I added a third drive in the late 80s. To this day all three drives work great. I did switch drives 0 and 2 to allow the most used drive to get less use and the newest drive to become the main drive. But, I'd hardly call a disk drive "pure garbage" that has lasted for 12 and 23 years! And that is in lieu of the fact that they had a 5 year life expectency. my 2 cents... > > 2- horribly botched controllers (TRS-80 without mods) > 3- software such as disk drivers that would hang if no media or errors > 4- floppy drives/controlers that would "bite" the media on power up or > down. > meaning it would write trash due to no write locks. > 5- not enough space > Considering the alternative to #5 was cassette or paper tape, we lived with it! > > The apple-II was plagued with #1 and somewhat with #3 depending on > OS and definately #4. Space was a problem for many users(#5) > > Trash-80 was 1 through 5 example. > > NS* mostly #4 had to be watched if the drives were seperately powered and > earlier units were SA400 (#1 problem). The SD controller while bullet proof > was > space poor at 90k per drive (#5). > My SSB system was SS/SD soft-sector and had a whopping 80KB storage capacity per diskette. Didn't TRS-80, Apple II, Northstar and others ALL have a different scheme (i.e. more capacity, hard-sectoring, double sided/density)? My point is that, maybe they were trying to do to much with the little ole SA400 than the thinhs was designed to do? > > CCS used 8" disks and reliable controller. It was however prone to #4. > Many S100 system that used 8" drives and the better 5.25 drives fell > in this realm of reliability though most with 5.25 were pretty cramped > until 360k(DD) or 720->780k(QD aka two sided DD) formats were common. > By then CP/M and S-100 was dying. > > Of the most reliable my AmproLB+, Kaypro 4/84 with Advent turborom,NS* > (both SD and DD) and most of the post 1981 systems in the commercial > systems space. My expectations of reliable were set by minicomputers > long before micros I'd worked with where if the disk didn't work it was > something I did wrong. > Mini computers had their fare share of disk problems too. The Interdata 7/16 systems I worked on in the mid-70s were slated to be outfitted with floppy drives. They could never make them work. It was either hard disks (20 MB system, w/10MB fixed and 10MB removable), or good ole paper tape and TTYs. > > Of all, my opinion is that floppies were ok but the first real improvement > was the 3.5" drives(720k and 1.44m generation) with the power fail logic > on board. They offered good storage, small size, lower power, good > reliability > and quieter than the whole lot. > And the fact that the 1.44MB floppy is STILL a standard device on many systems to this very day. Eric > > Allison From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Wed Nov 7 15:19:27 2001 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (Allison) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:35 2005 Subject: Apple Floppy Drives (was: More Apple Pimpers) Message-ID: <001701c167d1$e317d420$6b7b7b7b@ajp> From: Eric J. Korpela >I don't recall having as many problems with drives on other systems with the >exception of a Kaypro that would wipe most any disk over the course of a >couple hours. I only had access to the one Kaypro, so I don't know if the >problem was widespread. > Common problem on kaypros with 5.25drives with media in place on power down. Then again most machines did that. Some drives seemed less prone to do that in the same machine and those that lifted the heads were somewhat better too. Drive induced media failures, random writes on power up/down were/are common, SA400s would bite the hub (remember the rings?) and early two sided drives would clap the media between pinching heads that would sometimes twist and scar the disk. Allison From lgwalker at mts.net Wed Nov 7 15:40:30 2001 From: lgwalker at mts.net (Lawrence Walker) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:35 2005 Subject: Rubber Restorer... In-Reply-To: <200111061954.fA6JsL523087@narnia.int.dittman.net> References: from "Mike Ford" at Nov 06, 2001 09:59:28 AM Message-ID: <3BE955EE.18557.424336B@localhost> I remember a chem. instuctor in 1st year Sci who overheated some in a demo lab instuction class and filled the 300 seat lecture room with thick purple smoke necessitating it's evacuation. It was hilarious. I've often wondered if he hadn't done it on purpose, as he was an amusing instructor with a Columbo-like personality. Lawrence > > >I wonder if children's chemistry sets still come with all the > > >interesting chemicals? > > > > Nope, no potassium perchlorate, potassium nitrate, but plenty of sodium > > laurel sulfate. > > No iodine crystals, either, I take it? > > NB: If you don't know what you could do with these you probably had a much > safer childhood. -- Eric Dittman dittman@dittman.net Check out the DEC > Enthusiasts Club at http://www.dittman.net/ Reply to: lgwalker@mts.net From lgwalker at mts.net Wed Nov 7 15:40:30 2001 From: lgwalker at mts.net (Lawrence Walker) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:35 2005 Subject: Clearly OT (but what the hell...) (was: food In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20011106143744.02a67250@mail.30below.com> References: Message-ID: <3BE955EE.23265.42433A7@localhost> > > >> > > Americans have always been somewhat "strange" about their diet, > > Yea, as in -> real food has to be "americani[sz]ed" and preprocessed thru > Burger King et. al. before they'll eat it... Shame. > > We have 2 chinese restaurants in town, which both suck... (americani[sz]ed) and > 1 greek restaurant, which is extremely good but don't serve enough (IMHO) > choices in the way of greek food... They have gyros, kalamari, and a few other > dishes & the rest - american. (damn good american, but american nonetheless...) > :-( I'm continually begging them for new greek stuff - you can get a burger > anywhere, after all - and I was *finally* greeted with something new this > Saturday (don't recall the name, some type of lamb & beef dish with a baked > pancake-like topping - started with an "M") and it was fantastic! > > [[ And my kids *love* kalamari & most everything else I make them try... ]] > > I am *not* a normal american... ;^> > > > >> > How? I've never seen anything that I thought was strange. > > >> > > >> Gravy. Gravy is pretty strange when you consider what goes into it. > > Gravy is *not* strange if you've ever had pickled pigs feet... after that, you > know that gravy can be made with many things other than flour or corn starch... > ;-) > > > hmmm.... Poutine anyone? ;-) > > >POUTINE! POUTINE! POUTINE! > > Awrighty -- educate this idiotic american... what's Poutine? (Oh, and as an > aside, what's Haggis?) > > Thanks, > Roger "Merch" Merchberger > I would be surprised if there wasn't a place on the Can side that had Poutine. Cheese curds and gravy. Even out here in Manitoba it can be found in many of the old "french-canadian" districts. One of the spots I liked in the Canadian "Soo" was a greasy spoon called Mary's (IIRC) ,which had many slavic foods. Obviously I'm more into the quality of the food than the presentation. Had enough of form without substance in the fancier restaurants of Toronto, altho TO does also have more good "ethnic" restaurants than most US cities. Sadly where I'm now living has little in the way of choice, so I have to cook my own. The Americanization is such that even tho it's an old commercial fishing village, has extensive farming, and good hunting, it's very difficult to get local product. Most is the over-packaged crap that comes from the big centres with all the distributive agencies taking a chunk of the pie. Pickerel (which is caught locally) costs $9 a lb while the local commercial fishermen get less than $2. Due to marketing boards and agricultural specialization even things like milk and beef (this area is now a heavy cattle producer) are shipped from the centres. And because of advertising hype McDonalds, Taco Bell, and Pizza Hut predominate, and the locals ignore the food in their own backyard. How Sad. Fortunately because of strong local ethnic tradition, good Ukranian food is still available here. But for how long, when the kids are innundated by TV hype and want to emulate their urban counterparts ? Lawrence I have looked into the future and it's homogenized and BLAND, BLAND, BLAND. Reply to: lgwalker@mts.net From lgwalker at mts.net Wed Nov 7 15:40:30 2001 From: lgwalker at mts.net (Lawrence Walker) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:35 2005 Subject: Refilling Toner Carts (was RE: Rubber Restorer...) In-Reply-To: <20011107015303.XRPO20941.femail7.sdc1.sfba.home.com@BENCHBOX> References: Message-ID: <3BE955EE.7112.4243333@localhost> To take this a bit further off-topic, has anyone rejuvenated inkjet cartridges ? I have an HP Inkjet 500 that I bought a Ko.Rec.Type refill kit for. I refilled the cartridge some time ago and it has worked fine untill recently when after a period of inactivity it stopped printing even tho the cartridge is still 1/2 full. I can only imagine that a solid has plugged the output. Would it be possible to empty the cartidge and flush it out with some sort of solvent ? On a further note. What is the difference between toner material of various brands and purposes ? e.g. are the toner materials used in my Mattel Copier and the various laser cartridges in my numerous laser printers of different grades and densities ? While for a business or home computer user it makes sense to use approved cartridge replacements, the cost for collectors is prohibitive. Especially when that printer may sit for over a year or more while you use your favorite printer for everday purposes. As someone else on this thread mentioned it's sometimes cheaper to just buy another of the same make and model, IF you're able to find one. I refilled a cartridge from an Oki- Data LED printer with toner from a scrap one and it works fine. You don't do it in your kichen of course. It can be messy. Lawrence > Having been inside thousands of laser, led, and Inkjet printers in my > time, I'd have to agree with HP. > > Third-party recycled toner carts can cause an ungodly mess a tech is gonna > have to clean up. Inkjet refill kits can have the same effect (but > gooeyer). > > For those on the list, you know what you are doing and know what you are > getting into, but PLEASE tell your customers/clients to buy original toner > carts or carts from a known maker (such as Xerox tonor carts for hp > printers). Shopping for price is ok, but refilled carts from Joedy > Rottenkrotch are recipe for disaster. > > Regards, > > Jeff > > In , on 11/05/01 > at 05:02 PM, Mike Ford said: > > >>HP recommends a plain old water (a damp cloth) to clean printer rollers. I > > >>>Does anyone know where I can get "Rubber Restorer"? I know it comes in a > >>>spray. > > >I bought a bottle of Rubber Rejuvient at Frys, Platen Cleaner is another > >similar thing. Keep in mind HP is the same company that said Toner > >cartridges can't be refilled, so when the wet cloth doesn't work, use the > >real stuff if you don't want to buy new parts or a printer. > > > > -- > ----------------------------------------------------------- > Jeffrey S. Worley > Asheville, NC USA > 828-6984887 > UberTechnoid@Home.com > ----------------------------------------------------------- > Reply to: lgwalker@mts.net From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Wed Nov 7 14:36:23 2001 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (Ben Franchuk) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:35 2005 Subject: Rubber Restorer... References: <20011107192748.70186.qmail@web20106.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <3BE99B47.E436477B@jetnet.ab.ca> Ethan Dicks wrote: > > --- Tony Duell wrote: > > As I said, doubtless a Darwin Awards candidate could find some way to > > harm himself with the kit (swallowing parts of it would be one way). > > As I said in another post - "Do Not Lick" ;-) > Thats the guy with "Can read but to stupid to do so!" stamped on his forehead. Ben Franchuk. -- Standard Disclaimer : 97% speculation 2% bad grammar 1% facts. "Pre-historic Cpu's" http://www.jetnet.ab.ca/users/bfranchuk From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Wed Nov 7 15:53:48 2001 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (Allison) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:35 2005 Subject: Apple Floppy Drives (was: More Apple Pimpers) Message-ID: <000401c167d6$afdad120$6b7b7b7b@ajp> From: Eric Chomko >> 1- Drives (SA400 was pure garbage!!!) > >Whoa! I bought my Smoke Signal Broadcasting disk system back in 1978 >with two SA400 drives. I added a third drive in the late 80s. To this day I also have my three for the NS*, the first was from 1977. However as someone in the industry I did get to see how often the general lot of them failed and why. They were not great drives. I ahve mine working because it treated them very well and retired them by late 1981 for lack of space. >my 2 cents... >> meaning it would write trash due to no write locks. >> 5- not enough space > >Considering the alternative to #5 was cassette or paper tape, we lived with it! No the alternative was 8" drives at 250k or more. >> space poor at 90k per drive (#5). >> > >My SSB system was SS/SD soft-sector and had a whopping 80KB storage >capacity per diskette. Didn't TRS-80, Apple II, Northstar and others ALL have >a different scheme (i.e. more capacity, hard-sectoring, double sided/density)? The scheme with hard sector VS soft was not an issue here. It was tiny and if you did software development 90k was cramped. >My point is that, maybe they were trying to do to much with the little ole >SA400 than the thinhs was designed to do? No, it was just weak. It was slow at 40ms step (30 if you pushed it), the motor bearing tended to wear and a host of other problems. I may add that when Shugart sold the floppy business the quality went to pot. >> CCS used 8" disks and reliable controller. It was however prone to #4. >> Many S100 system that used 8" drives and the better 5.25 drives fell >> in this realm of reliability though most with 5.25 were pretty cramped >> until 360k(DD) or 720->780k(QD aka two sided DD) formats were common. >> >By then CP/M and S-100 was dying. And SS50 was long gone... the point being? Actually S100 was lingering after about 1982 and CP/M was still gathering steam up to 1984-5 with BBS systems and modems. The PC only started with 180k then 360k.. ignoring the OS and platform the PC only continued the progression with regard to floppies and their problems. >Mini computers had their fare share of disk problems too. The Interdata 7/16 >systems I worked on in the mid-70s were slated to be outfitted with >floppy drives. They could never make them work. It was either hard disks >(20 MB system, w/10MB fixed and 10MB removable), or good ole paper >tape and TTYs. The mid 70s was really the start for 8" floppies! There was a learning curve for the technology as a whole. >> Of all, my opinion is that floppies were ok but the first real improvement >> was the 3.5" drives(720k and 1.44m generation) with the power fail logic >> on board. They offered good storage, small size, lower power, good >> reliability and quieter than the whole lot. >> > >And the fact that the 1.44MB floppy is STILL a standard device on many >systems to this very day. Yes, and? We know that. It is becuase it works, was cheap and proved usable in size and durability. I'd also describe that as summa nulla. It's the best of the floppies and software and files now barely fit on CDrom... or CDrw the new "floppy" replacement. Don't rave at me. I though apple and many other machine to be valid and made a statement then. I also have the luxury of seeing what worked, failed, got forgotten and deserves to be forgotten in the epoch post MITS. Allison From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Wed Nov 7 14:53:36 2001 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (Ben Franchuk) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:35 2005 Subject: Apple Floppy Drives (was: More Apple Pimpers) References: <000c01c167b1$8aaab480$6b7b7b7b@ajp> <3BE9A194.91F14454@verizon.net> Message-ID: <3BE99F50.79B3EF29@jetnet.ab.ca> Eric Chomko wrote: > > Allison wrote: > > General comment, > > Most 8" systems were expected be and behaved reliably and have > > at least 250k of space. I used a home brew CP/M system with 8 inch drives once or twice. Every so often the drive head would stick so you rapped the drive. Mind you if you rapped too hard a something lose in the computer would reset the machine.:( > > 2- horribly botched controllers (TRS-80 without mods) Don't forget to put some blame on the Floppy disk chip manufacture as the internal data separator was unreliable on the most common chip, but they still sold the chip. > > The apple-II was plagued with #1 and somewhat with #3 depending on > > OS and definately #4. Space was a problem for many users(#5) Not a problem since you were expected to use basic and run games. > My SSB system was SS/SD soft-sector and had a whopping 80KB storage > capacity per diskette. Didn't TRS-80, Apple II, Northstar and others ALL have > a different scheme (i.e. more capacity, hard-sectoring, double sided/density)? I think the coco was 160K, but I do remember OS/9 would handle bigger drives. To bad RS did not market a real puter for OS/9 with a HD and real keyboard and a REAL UART! > And the fact that the 1.44MB floppy is STILL a standard device on many > systems to this very day. But they are not useful as very few OS's now days fit on a floppy. Ben Franchuk. -- Standard Disclaimer : 97% speculation 2% bad grammar 1% facts. "Pre-historic Cpu's" http://www.jetnet.ab.ca/users/bfranchuk From lemay at cs.umn.edu Wed Nov 7 16:04:11 2001 From: lemay at cs.umn.edu (Lawrence LeMay) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:35 2005 Subject: Refilling Toner Carts (was RE: Rubber Restorer...) In-Reply-To: <3BE955EE.7112.4243333@localhost> Message-ID: <200111072204.QAA13422@caesar.cs.umn.edu> > To take this a bit further off-topic, has anyone rejuvenated inkjet cartridges ? > I have an HP Inkjet 500 that I bought a Ko.Rec.Type refill kit for. I refilled the > cartridge some time ago and it has worked fine untill recently when after a > period of inactivity it stopped printing even tho the cartridge is still 1/2 full. I > can only imagine that a solid has plugged the output. Would it be possible to > empty the cartidge and flush it out with some sort of solvent ? HP switched to using a fancy type of ink cartridge a while back, that actually counts the number of drops that come out of a cartridge, and stop the cartridge after the number of drops reaches about 1.5 the volume that should be in the cartridge. Of course, they had some other explanation for it, but everyone knew it was to prevent refills. I dont know if your cartridge is one of those types, but it sure sounds like it. -Lawrence LeMay From marvin at rain.org Wed Nov 7 16:08:11 2001 From: marvin at rain.org (Marvin Johnston) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:35 2005 Subject: Refilling Toner Carts (was RE: Rubber Restorer...) References: <3BE955EE.7112.4243333@localhost> Message-ID: <3BE9B0CB.6B234937@rain.org> Lawrence Walker wrote: > > To take this a bit further off-topic, has anyone rejuvenated inkjet cartridges ? > I have an HP Inkjet 500 that I bought a Ko.Rec.Type refill kit for. I refilled the > cartridge some time ago and it has worked fine untill recently when after a > period of inactivity it stopped printing even tho the cartridge is still 1/2 full. I > can only imagine that a solid has plugged the output. Would it be possible to > empty the cartidge and flush it out with some sort of solvent ? I've heard that a drop of 409 cleaner on the print head will disolve the dried ink enough that it will again be workable. I haven't tried it but I do trust the person who did try it and told me about it. I think he said the sitting time ranged between a few minutes and perhaps 20 minutes. And this also worked on a cartridge that had been plugged for a few months and just sitting around. YMMV From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Nov 7 15:59:43 2001 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:35 2005 Subject: Rubber Restorer... In-Reply-To: <200111070559.fA75xTL20277@daemonweed.reanimators.org> from "Frank McConnell" at Nov 6, 1 09:59:29 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 804 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20011107/775fa69a/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Nov 7 16:19:51 2001 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:35 2005 Subject: KM11 and RK11-D In-Reply-To: <3.0.5.32.20011107092259.008e3210@ubanproductions.com> from "Tom Uban" at Nov 7, 1 09:22:59 am Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 798 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20011107/0ec771ac/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Nov 7 15:03:37 2001 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:35 2005 Subject: Apple Floppy Drives (was: More Apple Pimpers) In-Reply-To: <01Nov7.061220est.119120@gateway.mediacen.navy.mil> from "Jeff Hellige" at Nov 7, 1 06:00:11 am Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 458 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20011107/64c522e3/attachment.ksh From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Wed Nov 7 15:22:22 2001 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (Ben Franchuk) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:35 2005 Subject: Refilling Toner Carts (was RE: Rubber Restorer...) References: <3BE955EE.7112.4243333@localhost> Message-ID: <3BE9A60E.5153F473@jetnet.ab.ca> Lawrence Walker wrote: > > To take this a bit further off-topic, has anyone rejuvenated inkjet cartridges ? > I have an HP Inkjet 500 that I bought a Ko.Rec.Type refill kit for. I refilled the > cartridge some time ago and it has worked fine untill recently when after a > period of inactivity it stopped printing even tho the cartridge is still 1/2 full. I > can only imagine that a solid has plugged the output. Would it be possible to > empty the cartidge and flush it out with some sort of solvent ? Have you tried cleaning the bottom of the cartridge? I read somewhere that you don't let the cartridge go 100% dry but fill up while there is still ink in the head. I tend to fill up a cartridge once and throw it way after the second use. Ben Franchuk. Ps. At the risk of putting this back on topic, I used some rubber renew on the rollers so they would grab better ( and filed up the cartridge ) today for a bunch of schematic printing. -- Standard Disclaimer : 97% speculation 2% bad grammar 1% facts. "Pre-historic Cpu's" http://www.jetnet.ab.ca/users/bfranchuk From edick at idcomm.com Wed Nov 7 16:49:20 2001 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:35 2005 Subject: Apple Floppy Drives (was: More Apple Pimpers) References: <200111071807.fA7I7ea27799@jill.ssl.berkeley.edu> Message-ID: <002101c167de$707e2380$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Eric J. Korpela" To: Sent: Wednesday, November 07, 2001 11:07 AM Subject: Re: Apple Floppy Drives (was: More Apple Pimpers) > >> the Apple floppy disk subsystem wasn't as solid as one might have > >> hoped. > > > > ??? whaddya mean not solid? The ONLY problem I've seen is issues related to > > when one drive is out of alignment and as a result, may or may not be able to > > read disks from another drive. The disk ][ was simple, clever and RELIABLE. > > Please quantify your statement! > > I have to agree with Dick. Simple and clever, yes, but Disk ][ was not all > that bullet proof. The mechanism was reliable. I rarely recall failure of > the mechanism. But I certainly recall disks being rendered unreadable by > leaving a disk in the drive when powering down. Lifetimes of frequently used > disks were on order of months, even if the disks were write protected. > The mechanism taken by itself may have been reliable enough, BUT, since there was no track-zero sensor, (I think that's the reason) the "recal" operation rams the head assembly into the outside stops multiple times each time it is performed, and that's going to harm the mechanism. Do that enough times and the system loses alignment, which makes it prone to failure. As the drive changes in radial alignment, the data written with it becomes "off-track" so it will be difficult to read when the drive is realigned or when the diskette is put in a properly aligned drive. The consequences of poor alignment is not an Apple problem, though the Apple way of using the drives causes misalignment more quickly than with drives that sense when track zero has been reached. Keep in mind that Apple left out the track zero sensor and index sensor, not so much because the sensor was costly or difficult to manage, but because it required that each drive have them manually adjusted by a human operator/technician. This was costly and, while most drives were done in exactly that way, the Apple process skipped those steps, saving tons of money. > > Later Disk ][ drives didn't seem to have as many problems. I assume there > was some modification to the circuitry to prevent stray currents in the heads > and to clamp surges on power down. The problems resurfaced in some //c internal > drives. I don't recall having any problems with the Apple 5.25 (plastic case, > D connector) drives. > The matter with the drive turning on its heads during the power on/power off transient is something that one would expect with any drive, hence the drive should NEVER be closed with a diskette in it during the power-up or power-down process. There's always a risk that the write-gate will be perceived by the drive as being "ON" as the supply becomes unstabile, and that can cause problems. That's not an Apple-specific problem but exists wherever there are disk/tape drives. I'd classify diskette damage caused by this bugaboo as procedural error. > > I don't recall having as many problems with drives on other systems with the > exception of a Kaypro that would wipe most any disk over the course of a > couple hours. I only had access to the one Kaypro, so I don't know if the > problem was widespread. > > Eric > > From edick at idcomm.com Wed Nov 7 16:58:44 2001 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:35 2005 Subject: Apple Floppy Drives (was: More Apple Pimpers) References: <000c01c167b1$8aaab480$6b7b7b7b@ajp> <3BE9A194.91F14454@verizon.net> <3BE99F50.79B3EF29@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <003b01c167df$c08cb7a0$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> see below, plz. Dick ----- Original Message ----- From: "Ben Franchuk" To: Sent: Wednesday, November 07, 2001 1:53 PM Subject: Re: Apple Floppy Drives (was: More Apple Pimpers) > Eric Chomko wrote: > > > > Allison wrote: > > > General comment, > > > 2- horribly botched controllers (TRS-80 without mods) > > Don't forget to put some blame on the Floppy disk chip manufacture as > the internal data separator was unreliable on the most common chip, > but they still sold the chip. > The manufacturer of the chip was culpable, but, given that without that chip there wouldn't have been an easy FD interface for quite some time, as its predecessors where quite unhandy, the industry decided to "live" with the flaws. Aside from that, in a significant range of drive types (8") there was a drive-resident clock-extraction circuit that would work adequately. > > But they are not useful as very few OS's now days fit on a floppy. > Ben Franchuk. > -- > Standard Disclaimer : 97% speculation 2% bad grammar 1% facts. > "Pre-historic Cpu's" http://www.jetnet.ab.ca/users/bfranchuk > > From uban at ubanproductions.com Wed Nov 7 16:58:39 2001 From: uban at ubanproductions.com (Tom Uban) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:35 2005 Subject: KM11 and RK11-D In-Reply-To: References: <3.0.5.32.20011107092259.008e3210@ubanproductions.com> Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.20011107165839.008fbaa0@ubanproductions.com> >NEver with a -D. I've used a pair of them with an RK11-C (a rack of >flip-chip cards), but that's different enough to be irrelevant. Yep, used to have one of those (years ago) before I could afford the RK11-D. >The KM11 monitors 28 signals, and allows you to control 4 signals (it's >rare for all 4 switches to be used, but I digress). What it shows depends >on the device it's plugged into. > >Do you have the overlay, or a picture of the overlay, which shows what >all the lights mean? If not, then I'll have to find my RK11-D printset >and work out just what signals are displayed? Ditto for the switches. Yes, I have the overlay. I guess that it doesn't allow quite the level of control that is provided for CPU debug. It looks like it just shows the state of a number of signals and the switches don't do much of anything, at least based on the labeling. --tnx --tom From jhellige at earthlink.net Wed Nov 7 17:13:06 2001 From: jhellige at earthlink.net (Jeff Hellige) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:35 2005 Subject: Apple Floppy Drives (was: More Apple Pimpers) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: > > My EI has the double-density upgrade but I've removed it >because over the >> years it's slowly drifted to the point that it is no longer able to read >> disk. Still works fine in single-density mode though. > >Somewhere I have the official service manual for the Model 1 DD upgrade >board. It includes the alignment procedure, which doesn't look _too_ bad >(it's very similar to the model 3 setup, for obvious reasons), but you'll >need a 'scope. I have the DD user's manual but not the service manual. If in the future you ever get the chance to scan it or otherwise convert it to digital format, I'd appreciate a copy of it. Thanks Jeff -- Home of the TRS-80 Model 2000 FAQ File http://www.cchaven.com http://www.geocities.com/siliconvalley/lakes/6757 From geoffr at zipcon.net Wed Nov 7 17:45:13 2001 From: geoffr at zipcon.net (Geoff Reed) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:35 2005 Subject: Sun / CalComp Printer networking problems (was: Thick Ethernet/Sun networking problems) In-Reply-To: <9893.1005116044@www42.gmx.net> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20011107154358.03329a60@mail.zipcon.net> At 07:54 AM 11/7/01 +0100, you wrote: >I verified (by connecting the PC to the Transceiver the printer used WITH >the drop cable the printer used, then telnetting to one of the SUNs) that >transceiver and drop cable are okay. So I think the fault is on the AUI >port of >the printer's network card. But no signs of overheating etc. on the PCB... Check for a blown fuse on the printers network card. that's the most common problem i've run into that keep printer net cards (at least HP compatible ones) from working From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Nov 7 17:47:47 2001 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:35 2005 Subject: KM11 and RK11-D In-Reply-To: <3.0.5.32.20011107165839.008fbaa0@ubanproductions.com> from "Tom Uban" at Nov 7, 1 04:58:39 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1441 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20011107/b48d7468/attachment.ksh From pete at dunnington.u-net.com Wed Nov 7 18:09:36 2001 From: pete at dunnington.u-net.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:35 2005 Subject: Refilling Toner Carts (was RE: Rubber Restorer...) In-Reply-To: Marvin Johnston "Re: Refilling Toner Carts (was RE: Rubber Restorer...)" (Nov 7, 14:08) References: <3BE955EE.7112.4243333@localhost> <3BE9B0CB.6B234937@rain.org> Message-ID: <10111080009.ZM4214@mindy.dunnington.u-net.com> On Nov 7, 14:08, Marvin Johnston wrote: > I've heard that a drop of 409 cleaner on the print head will disolve the > dried ink enough that it will again be workable. I haven't tried it but > I do trust the person who did try it and told me about it. That's interesting. I have a junk cartridge for my HP 1600CM that I'd be willing to try it on. Anyone know what's in 409 cleaner? -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager University of York From pete at dunnington.u-net.com Wed Nov 7 12:21:55 2001 From: pete at dunnington.u-net.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:35 2005 Subject: Clearly OT (but what the hell...) (was: food In-Reply-To: Douglas Quebbeman "RE: Clearly OT (but what the hell...) (was: food" (Nov 7, 8:08) References: <7A9BACCEF0171D4FB77019F5104CDD3722587F@jeffserver.tegjeff.com> Message-ID: <10111071821.ZM3882@mindy.dunnington.u-net.com> On Nov 7, 8:08, Douglas Quebbeman wrote: > > Traditionally served [...] on special occasions like Burn's Night with a glass of > > whisky. > This Son of Clan Keith is wondering which night of the week that > Burn's Night falls on? It varies. Which night would you like? :-) -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager University of York From mikeford at socal.rr.com Wed Nov 7 19:23:03 2001 From: mikeford at socal.rr.com (Mike Ford) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:35 2005 Subject: Rubber Restorer... In-Reply-To: <40.13ed4982.291abcd0@aol.com> Message-ID: > In the case of a scooter battery I bought last year, there was a box of >acid to install, but there was none left over. why would you not want to >add all that was provided? There was removable caps, but it was only for >opening it up once to add acid, and then forever sealed. One thing I can >say about those batteries, they sure don't last long for being so >expensive! If you let them go dead just once, they never recover. Buy a replacement from a "real" battery supplier. On this list though I can't imagine anyone that could "leave alone" such a potential electronic hot rod project. Fact is, now that I think about it, "I" am pretty tempted to try some stuff. From cisin at xenosoft.com Wed Nov 7 19:50:02 2001 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin (XenoSoft)) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:35 2005 Subject: Refilling Toner Carts (was RE: Rubber Restorer...) In-Reply-To: <10111080009.ZM4214@mindy.dunnington.u-net.com> Message-ID: > That's interesting. I have a junk cartridge for my HP 1600CM that I'd be > willing to try it on. Anyone know what's in 409 cleaner? 408 failed attempts before they finally got it to work? From rhblakeman at kih.net Wed Nov 7 19:59:13 2001 From: rhblakeman at kih.net (Russ Blakeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:35 2005 Subject: Refilling Toner Carts (was RE: Rubber Restorer...) In-Reply-To: <10111080009.ZM4214@mindy.dunnington.u-net.com> Message-ID: No but I used to put 409 in the ultrasonic cleaner tank for my Kohinoor drafting pens to clean the dried ink years ago, jewelry too. -> -----Original Message----- -> From: owner-classiccmp@classiccmp.org -> [mailto:owner-classiccmp@classiccmp.org]On Behalf Of Pete Turnbull -> Sent: Wednesday, November 07, 2001 6:10 PM -> To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org -> Subject: Re: Refilling Toner Carts (was RE: Rubber Restorer...) -> -> -> On Nov 7, 14:08, Marvin Johnston wrote: -> -> > I've heard that a drop of 409 cleaner on the print head will -> disolve the -> > dried ink enough that it will again be workable. I haven't tried it but -> > I do trust the person who did try it and told me about it. -> -> That's interesting. I have a junk cartridge for my HP 1600CM that I'd be -> willing to try it on. Anyone know what's in 409 cleaner? -> -> -- -> Pete Peter Turnbull -> Network Manager -> University of York -> From jimdavis at gorge.net Wed Nov 7 20:06:55 2001 From: jimdavis at gorge.net (Jim Davis) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:35 2005 Subject: Refilling Toner Carts (was RE: Rubber Restorer...) References: <3BE955EE.7112.4243333@localhost> <3BE9B0CB.6B234937@rain.org> <10111080009.ZM4214@mindy.dunnington.u-net.com> Message-ID: <3BE9E8BF.C1047CDA@gorge.net> I've used it to clean print heads on epson printers. Works in most cases. The complete rundown on 409 can be found at http://www.biosci.ohio-state.edu/~jsmith/MSDS/FORMULA%20409%20CLEANER.htm One possible problem, Sodium Hydroxide < .5% could be damaging and corrosive to metalic parts. Jim Davis. Pete Turnbull wrote: > > On Nov 7, 14:08, Marvin Johnston wrote: > > > I've heard that a drop of 409 cleaner on the print head will disolve the > > dried ink enough that it will again be workable. I haven't tried it but > > I do trust the person who did try it and told me about it. > > That's interesting. I have a junk cartridge for my HP 1600CM that I'd be > willing to try it on. Anyone know what's in 409 cleaner? > > -- > Pete Peter Turnbull > Network Manager > University of York From acme_ent at bellsouth.net Wed Nov 7 22:12:47 2001 From: acme_ent at bellsouth.net (Glen Goodwin) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:36 2005 Subject: Stacking Apple ][ stuff Message-ID: <20011108041442.PUVF25211.imf17bis.bellsouth.net@thegoodw> > From: Richard Erlacher > The monitor seems to interact with the drives when the monitor is turned on. It > depends, I suppose, on the monitor, but I've got the IIe with the dual drive box Same setup I have, except mono monitor. > I'm told by more experienced Apple owners that it's a good idea to (a) ground > the disk drive boxes in the case of the old aluminum-cased Apple][ drives and > (b) put a sheet of grounded ferrous metal between the monitor and drives. I > don't know whether this helps, as I've simply stopped turning off the monitor > when I go away. Dick, thanks for this valuable information. I haven't lost any data yet but I think I'll take the easy way out and just set the disk drive unit off to the side. Glen 0/0 From acme_ent at bellsouth.net Wed Nov 7 22:55:07 2001 From: acme_ent at bellsouth.net (Glen Goodwin) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:36 2005 Subject: Zenith Data Systems Z-386 SX/20 Free in NJ Message-ID: <20011108045702.DLA3374.imf03bis.bellsouth.net@thegoodw> > From: Chris > If anyone wants it, I have a Zenith Data Systems Z-386 SX/20 available > I can't figure out how to change the setup, so it is useless to me (if I > can't at least get it to accept a 3.5" drive, I can't use it). Umm, why? Glen 0/0 From donm at cts.com Wed Nov 7 22:57:18 2001 From: donm at cts.com (Don Maslin) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:36 2005 Subject: Apple Floppy Drives (was: More Apple Pimpers) In-Reply-To: <3BE9A194.91F14454@verizon.net> Message-ID: On Wed, 7 Nov 2001, Eric Chomko wrote: > Allison wrote: > > > General comment, > > > > Most 8" systems were expected be and behaved reliably and have > > at least 250k of space. > > > > Most 5.25" systems could be reliable but, often weren't. I'll restrict > > comments to 5.25" for the later reason. > > > > Most of the complaints I've had with disk systems be they Apple or not > > were often in this order. > > > > 1- Drives (SA400 was pure garbage!!!) > > Whoa! I bought my Smoke Signal Broadcasting disk system back in 1978 > with two SA400 drives. I added a third drive in the late 80s. To this day > all three drives work great. I did switch drives 0 and 2 to allow the most > used drive to get less use and the newest drive to become the main drive. > But, I'd hardly call a disk drive "pure garbage" that has lasted for 12 and > 23 years! And that is in lieu of the fact that they had a 5 year life > expectency. > > my 2 cents... And worth every penny of it :) But the fact is, that despite your fortunate experience, the spiral cam head positioner was probably the worst idea since the stone wheel! - don > > > > 2- horribly botched controllers (TRS-80 without mods) > > 3- software such as disk drivers that would hang if no media or errors > > 4- floppy drives/controlers that would "bite" the media on power up or > > down. > > meaning it would write trash due to no write locks. > > 5- not enough space > > > > Considering the alternative to #5 was cassette or paper tape, we lived with it! > > > > > The apple-II was plagued with #1 and somewhat with #3 depending on > > OS and definately #4. Space was a problem for many users(#5) > > > > > > Trash-80 was 1 through 5 example. > > > > NS* mostly #4 had to be watched if the drives were seperately powered and > > earlier units were SA400 (#1 problem). The SD controller while bullet proof > > was > > space poor at 90k per drive (#5). > > > > My SSB system was SS/SD soft-sector and had a whopping 80KB storage > capacity per diskette. Didn't TRS-80, Apple II, Northstar and others ALL have > a different scheme (i.e. more capacity, hard-sectoring, double sided/density)? > > My point is that, maybe they were trying to do to much with the little ole > SA400 > than the thinhs was designed to do? > > > > > > CCS used 8" disks and reliable controller. It was however prone to #4. > > Many S100 system that used 8" drives and the better 5.25 drives fell > > in this realm of reliability though most with 5.25 were pretty cramped > > until 360k(DD) or 720->780k(QD aka two sided DD) formats were common. > > > > By then CP/M and S-100 was dying. > > > > > > Of the most reliable my AmproLB+, Kaypro 4/84 with Advent turborom,NS* > > (both SD and DD) and most of the post 1981 systems in the commercial > > systems space. My expectations of reliable were set by minicomputers > > long before micros I'd worked with where if the disk didn't work it was > > something I did wrong. > > > > Mini computers had their fare share of disk problems too. The Interdata 7/16 > systems I worked on in the mid-70s were slated to be outfitted with > floppy drives. They could never make them work. It was either hard disks > (20 MB system, w/10MB fixed and 10MB removable), or good ole paper > tape and TTYs. > > > > > > Of all, my opinion is that floppies were ok but the first real improvement > > was the 3.5" drives(720k and 1.44m generation) with the power fail logic > > on board. They offered good storage, small size, lower power, good > > reliability > > and quieter than the whole lot. > > > > And the fact that the 1.44MB floppy is STILL a standard device on many > systems to this very day. > > Eric > > > > > Allison > > From donm at cts.com Wed Nov 7 23:19:19 2001 From: donm at cts.com (Don Maslin) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:36 2005 Subject: Refilling Toner Carts (was RE: Rubber Restorer...) In-Reply-To: <3BE9E8BF.C1047CDA@gorge.net> Message-ID: On Wed, 7 Nov 2001, Jim Davis wrote: > I've used it to clean print heads on epson printers. Works in most > cases. The complete rundown on 409 can be found at > http://www.biosci.ohio-state.edu/~jsmith/MSDS/FORMULA%20409%20CLEANER.htm > One possible problem, Sodium Hydroxide < .5% could be damaging and > corrosive > to metalic parts. > > Jim Davis. A non-problem! Used on aluminum and rinsed off in a reasonable time it causes no corrosion. - don > Pete Turnbull wrote: > > > > On Nov 7, 14:08, Marvin Johnston wrote: > > > > > I've heard that a drop of 409 cleaner on the print head will disolve the > > > dried ink enough that it will again be workable. I haven't tried it but > > > I do trust the person who did try it and told me about it. > > > > That's interesting. I have a junk cartridge for my HP 1600CM that I'd be > > willing to try it on. Anyone know what's in 409 cleaner? > > > > -- > > Pete Peter Turnbull > > Network Manager > > University of York > From acme_ent at bellsouth.net Wed Nov 7 22:55:07 2001 From: acme_ent at bellsouth.net (Glen Goodwin) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:36 2005 Subject: Zenith Data Systems Z-386 SX/20 Free in NJ Message-ID: <20011108045702.DLA3374.imf03bis.bellsouth.net@thegoodw> > From: Chris > If anyone wants it, I have a Zenith Data Systems Z-386 SX/20 available > I can't figure out how to change the setup, so it is useless to me (if I > can't at least get it to accept a 3.5" drive, I can't use it). Umm, why? Glen 0/0 From mikeford at socal.rr.com Thu Nov 8 00:10:36 2001 From: mikeford at socal.rr.com (Mike Ford) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:36 2005 Subject: Refilling Toner Carts (was RE: Rubber Restorer...) In-Reply-To: <3BE955EE.7112.4243333@localhost> References: <20011107015303.XRPO20941.femail7.sdc1.sfba.home.com@BENCHBOX> Message-ID: > To take this a bit further off-topic, has anyone rejuvenated inkjet >cartridges ? >I have an HP Inkjet 500 that I bought a Ko.Rec.Type refill kit for. I >refilled the >cartridge some time ago and it has worked fine untill recently when after a >period of inactivity it stopped printing even tho the cartridge is still >1/2 full. I >can only imagine that a solid has plugged the output. Would it be possible to >empty the cartidge and flush it out with some sort of solvent ? Rinse with warm water, then set the cartridge on a wet paper towel with the ink jet down. Wait 1/2 hour or more, rinse, dry and put back in printer and run the cleaning cycle. Not printing at all makes me think bad connection, but??? what do I know. I am told commercially they clean the carts in ultrasonic cleaners. One of my refill kits has a bottle of cleaner they say to use every so many refills. (squirt a bit in the almost empty cart, run cleaning cycle until MT). If you really don't feel like refilling, look around MANY nice offers exist for refilling your carts. Staples clearanced some prepaid refill mailers, and I bought a couple of those, and some online place has an offer to send out one refilled cart for each two you send in as a "introductory" special. Advice I learned the hard way, NEVER pick up unknown toner or ink jet cartridges that have been setting in the sun. From jss at subatomix.com Thu Nov 8 00:41:19 2001 From: jss at subatomix.com (Jeffrey S. Sharp) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:36 2005 Subject: KM11 and RK11-D In-Reply-To: <3.0.5.32.20011107165839.008fbaa0@ubanproductions.com> Message-ID: <20011108003953.Y92508-100000@lepton.subatomix.com> On Wed, 7 Nov 2001, Tom Uban wrote: > > NEver with a -D. I've used a pair of them with an RK11-C (a rack of > > flip-chip cards), but that's different enough to be irrelevant. > > Yep, used to have one of those (years ago) before I could afford the > RK11-D. Ok, it's newbie time. Is there any functional difference between the -C and -D? That is, can either do things the other cannot? -- Jeffrey S. Sharp jss@subatomix.com From Arno_1983 at gmx.de Thu Nov 8 00:50:30 2001 From: Arno_1983 at gmx.de (Arno Kletzander) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:36 2005 Subject: Sun / CalComp Printer networking problems (was: Thick Ethernet/Sun networking problems) Message-ID: <25098.1005202230@www30.gmx.net> Hello Pete, at first: Is it okay to continue our mailing this way (directly mailing the messages, only CCing to Classiccmp.org? It's because I'm on the Digest and it has been arriving at about 4 P.M. local time the last few days, which is too late for me to stay in school and pick it up the same day (alas, don't have Internet at home yet). >Ah. It's quite likely there are some links on the card which have to be >set one way to use the 10baseT port, and the other way to use the >transceiver... Look for a set of 6 links. No, nothing on that board. There are only two 2pin jumpers, one for printing out the adapter's status page and one for resetting the NOVRAM contents to the factory defaults. I think I've already seen what you mean on other network devices (six or so 3-pin jumpers, the movable parts sometimes joined in a blue plastic tray). >>But no signs of overheating etc. on the PCB... OK, I admit that was only for VISIBLE SIGNS. The LM2577-T12 (switching voltage regulator in TO-220 package) next to the AUI port becomes TERRIBLY hot even after < 10 minutes of running the printer. I assume it's used to generate the voltage the Transceiver uses? But the power light (on the transceiver) is on as long as the printer is... And even worse...the DATA LED does no longer blink when there's traffic on the Ethernet... OK, I hope that helps Arno Kletzander Arno_1983@gmx.de -- GMX - Die Kommunikationsplattform im Internet. http://www.gmx.net From jimdavis at gorge.net Thu Nov 8 01:37:37 2001 From: jimdavis at gorge.net (Jim Davis) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:36 2005 Subject: Refilling Toner Carts (was RE: Rubber Restorer...) References: <20011107015303.XRPO20941.femail7.sdc1.sfba.home.com@BENCHBOX> Message-ID: <3BEA3641.D20BDF44@gorge.net> Mike Ford wrote: > Advice I learned the hard way, NEVER pick up unknown toner or ink jet > cartridges that have been setting in the sun. Watch out for expired HP carts, I picked up 3 unopened color carts from goodwill a few years ago, 2 years after the expiration date I had the opportunity to try them out. The color carts all printed in a un-uniform shade of brown/grey. Even at 3$ a unit, it was still an ouch. Jim Davis. From optimus at canit.se Wed Nov 7 20:43:32 2001 From: optimus at canit.se (Iggy Drougge) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:36 2005 Subject: Atari ST cartridge port Message-ID: <237.712T1600T2235677optimus@canit.se> Does anyone know where one might get a hold of 2 mm spaced (not 2,54 mm) card- edge connectors? The Atari ST cartridge port is using that spacing, which doesn't seem very popular. -- En ligne avec Thor 2.6a. Min andra dator ?r en VAX. From optimus at canit.se Thu Nov 8 01:27:26 2001 From: optimus at canit.se (Iggy Drougge) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:36 2005 Subject: DECSystem 5900 (fwd) Message-ID: <94.712T1300T5074805optimus@canit.se> Got this on another list. You could run ULTRIX on it. I could supply a CD image if necessary. -------------- next part -------------- An embedded message was scrubbed... From: "Erik Bennett" Subject: DECSystem 5900 Date: 7 Nov 2001 03:16:50 GMT Size: 1700 Url: http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20011108/0f8820b3/attachment.mht From optimus at canit.se Thu Nov 8 01:39:21 2001 From: optimus at canit.se (Iggy Drougge) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:36 2005 Subject: food In-Reply-To: <3BE76EE1.D6F3898D@internet1.net> Message-ID: <1334.712T1050T5194395optimus@canit.se> Chad Fernandez skrev: >Richard Erlacher wrote: >> Americans have always been somewhat "strange" about their diet, >How? I've never seen anything that I thought was strange. We don't eat >anything that is still alive, or wiggles, or whatever. Our food is >pretty basic, with the exception maybe of some fancy stuff.... but a lot >of that is foreign influence. I find it somewhat interesting how Americans define "foreign". Doesn't that require something "indigenous"? =) I can't say that I know much about American cousine, save for hamburgers, but there is a shop in Stockholm which specialises in American food, and I must say that the general impression I've got is that it's absolutely deranged. Two examples: Mustard and mayonnaise mixed into one bottle. Smoke essence, added to food in order to get a "grilled" quality. And everything is very colourful. Oh, and then there's that marshmallow butter, which I think you're supposed to have on your sandwich. Makes Nutella seem like a wholesome product. =) -- En ligne avec Thor 2.6a. BSD: A psychoactive drug, popular in the 80s, probably developed at UC Berkeley or thereabouts. Similar in many ways to the prescription-only medication called "System V", but infinitely more useful. (Or, at least, more fun.) The full chemical name is "Berkeley Standard Distribution". From optimus at canit.se Thu Nov 8 01:59:59 2001 From: optimus at canit.se (Iggy Drougge) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:36 2005 Subject: More Apple Pimpers In-Reply-To: <7A9BACCEF0171D4FB77019F5104CDD37225880@jeffserver.tegjeff.com> Message-ID: <517.712T2950T5396099optimus@canit.se> Douglas Quebbeman skrev: >Macs up through at least the MacPlus have a single-chip >implemntation of the IWM that they used for both the >never-shipped Twiggy drives (never shipped in Macs) and >the later 400k/800k 3.5" floppies. The "integrated Woz machine". =/ According to NetBSD, my LC475 is equipped with an IWM, too. What a hardy little design. -- En ligne avec Thor 2.6a. Och har du en TV utan Scart, vilket nittionio procent faktiskt har, kommer de f?rmodligen att ringa fr?n Antikrundan. Martin Timell From pete at dunnington.u-net.com Thu Nov 8 02:19:08 2001 From: pete at dunnington.u-net.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:36 2005 Subject: Refilling Toner Carts (was RE: Rubber Restorer...) In-Reply-To: Jim Davis "Re: Refilling Toner Carts (was RE: Rubber Restorer...)" (Nov 7, 18:06) References: <3BE955EE.7112.4243333@localhost> <3BE9B0CB.6B234937@rain.org> <10111080009.ZM4214@mindy.dunnington.u-net.com> <3BE9E8BF.C1047CDA@gorge.net> Message-ID: <10111080819.ZM4467@mindy.dunnington.u-net.com> On Nov 7, 18:06, Jim Davis wrote: > I've used it to clean print heads on epson printers. Works in most > cases. The complete rundown on 409 can be found at > http://www.biosci.ohio-state.edu/~jsmith/MSDS/FORMULA%20409%20CLEANER.htm > One possible problem, Sodium Hydroxide < .5% could be damaging and > corrosive > to metalic parts. About the only common material that sodium hydroxide will attack is aluminium, and then only when concentrated or exposure is reasonably long; it has no effect on copper, steel, etc. Unfortunately, the rundown you suggest only accounts for about 15% of the ingredients :-( -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager University of York From optimus at canit.se Thu Nov 8 03:00:32 2001 From: optimus at canit.se (Iggy Drougge) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:36 2005 Subject: 8 inch floppy drives In-Reply-To: <008001c16796$59a6bf20$2fb1ff0a@cvendel> Message-ID: <355.712T1600T6005125optimus@canit.se> Curt Vendel skrev: >Atari Classics >www.atariclassics.com >(1.2 million brand new Atari 2600 & 7800 video game cartridges, $2 each) Hmm, that's a nice price. I suppose those are USA carts. Are there any incompatibilities visavis PAL systems? -- En ligne avec Thor 2.6a. Keine Grenze verlockt mehr zum Schmuggeln als die Altersgrenze. --- Robert Musil From jhellige at earthlink.net Thu Nov 8 04:07:32 2001 From: jhellige at earthlink.net (Jeff Hellige) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:36 2005 Subject: Atari ST cartridge port In-Reply-To: <237.712T1600T2235677optimus@canit.se> References: <237.712T1600T2235677optimus@canit.se> Message-ID: >Does anyone know where one might get a hold of 2 mm spaced (not 2,54 mm) card- >edge connectors? The Atari ST cartridge port is using that spacing, which >doesn't seem very popular. There don't seem to be that many cartridges for it either. The only one I have is a VT100 emulation cart. Jeff -- Home of the TRS-80 Model 2000 FAQ File http://www.cchaven.com http://www.geocities.com/siliconvalley/lakes/6757 From technos at nerdland.org Thu Nov 8 04:30:40 2001 From: technos at nerdland.org (Jim) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:36 2005 Subject: food Message-ID: <01C16816.817D0D30.technos@nerdland.org> While you are right about smke essence, it is probably not applied in the same dose as you are seeing there. Also, I can assure you that no one uses mayo and mustard "mixed" (same bottle?), nor marshmallow "butter"(creme?). Whatever you're eating there is a pure bastardization of what I get here in Detroit or Kansas City or Des Moines. Mmm, greens and a juicy steak burned to a crisp. Jim On Thursday, November 08, 2001 2:39 AM, Iggy Drougge [SMTP:optimus@canit.se] wrote: > Chad Fernandez skrev: > > >Richard Erlacher wrote: > >> Americans have always been somewhat "strange" about their diet, > > >How? I've never seen anything that I thought was strange. We don't eat > >anything that is still alive, or wiggles, or whatever. Our food is > >pretty basic, with the exception maybe of some fancy stuff.... but a lot > >of that is foreign influence. > > I find it somewhat interesting how Americans define "foreign". Doesn't that > require something "indigenous"? =) > I can't say that I know much about American cousine, save for hamburgers, but > there is a shop in Stockholm which specialises in American food, and I must > say that the general impression I've got is that it's absolutely deranged. > Two examples: Mustard and mayonnaise mixed into one bottle. Smoke essence, > added to food in order to get a "grilled" quality. > And everything is very colourful. > Oh, and then there's that marshmallow butter, which I think you're supposed > to > have on your sandwich. Makes Nutella seem like a wholesome product. =) > > -- > En ligne avec Thor 2.6a. > > BSD: A psychoactive drug, popular in the 80s, probably developed at UC > Berkeley or thereabouts. Similar in many ways to the prescription-only > medication called "System V", but infinitely more useful. (Or, at least, more > fun.) The full chemical name is "Berkeley Standard Distribution". > From mikeford at socal.rr.com Thu Nov 8 03:25:55 2001 From: mikeford at socal.rr.com (Mike Ford) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:36 2005 Subject: Refilling Toner Carts (was RE: Rubber Restorer...) In-Reply-To: <3BEA3641.D20BDF44@gorge.net> References: <20011107015303.XRPO20941.femail7.sdc1.sfba.home.com@BENCHBOX> Message-ID: >> Advice I learned the hard way, NEVER pick up unknown toner or ink jet >> cartridges that have been setting in the sun. > >Watch out for expired HP carts, I picked up 3 unopened color >carts from goodwill a few years ago, 2 years after the >expiration date I had the opportunity to try them out. The color >carts all printed in a un-uniform shade of brown/grey. >Even at 3$ a unit, it was still an ouch. Not really as bad as a leaking cartridge that you don't notice until its dripping off your elbow. Only took 2 weeks to wear off. Something must have happened to those cartridges, because I know I have used some that were older than that without a hitch, plus a guy I know at the swapmeets sells about 100+ date expired units per week, and nobody seems to be complaining. Maybe they got too hot, or froze or something? Normal shelf life is what, 3 to 5 years? From mikeford at socal.rr.com Thu Nov 8 03:40:30 2001 From: mikeford at socal.rr.com (Mike Ford) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:36 2005 Subject: food In-Reply-To: <1334.712T1050T5194395optimus@canit.se> References: <3BE76EE1.D6F3898D@internet1.net> Message-ID: >>> Americans have always been somewhat "strange" about their diet, >I find it somewhat interesting how Americans define "foreign". Doesn't that Hey, its a BIG place here, and each region came from different cultures, so every few hundred miles in any direction and "American" cuisine changes. Most of the country accepts a "normal" meal as soup/salad (lettuce, nothing too odd)/meat and potatoes with some veggie/dessert. What you get used to though, is everything else, and maybe the disease we pass to the rest of the world is fast food. What I am thinking about right now, in the middle of the night with no chance of getting any is Mole'. Mole' is a Mexican sauce made from chili and raw chocolate, and it has no equal on chicken. My son is really set on some Mongolian food for lunch tomorrow too. Hmpf. From foo at siconic.com Thu Nov 8 04:48:12 2001 From: foo at siconic.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:36 2005 Subject: Stacking Apple ][ stuff In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Tue, 6 Nov 2001 SUPRDAVE@aol.com wrote: > problem either. I know there is some kind of problem relating to the > duodisk and disks getting trashed (anyone know details?) but nothing > ever related to the display. I used and continue to use a Duodisk on my APple //e system and I can't recall ever having a disk get mysteriously trashed so I don't know of what you speak. Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org From mikeford at socal.rr.com Thu Nov 8 05:08:00 2001 From: mikeford at socal.rr.com (Mike Ford) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:36 2005 Subject: food In-Reply-To: <01C16816.817D0D30.technos@nerdland.org> Message-ID: >Also, I can assure you that no one uses mayo and mustard "mixed" (same >bottle?), Dijonaise, perfect for turkey sandwiches and served on half the airlines. Made by Best Foods. From foo at siconic.com Thu Nov 8 05:05:12 2001 From: foo at siconic.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:36 2005 Subject: hard-sector 5 1/4 disk In-Reply-To: <001301c16724$9e09a3c0$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> Message-ID: On Tue, 6 Nov 2001, Richard Erlacher wrote: > I would label this as consensus rather than opinion, Sellam, as I've What kind of "consensus" is a consensus of one? > actually done very little with Apple][ since the early '80's, but I've > had to deal with the problems others have brought to me, which were > trivially solvable by plucking out the offending component, namely the > Apple][ disk subsystem. Once the disk subsystem has been gone, the > Apple][ was quite solid and predictable, in ways other than, "well, > it's work for another hour or so ... then the disk won't be readable > any longer ...." Fairytales. > I think your recollection is tainted by the Apple-colored glasses, It's not a "recollection". As I said, I still use my Appple //e to this day. Before my //e I had a ][+ I used for a few years. NEVER did I have the problems you say you encountered. Your whole story is suspect. I hate to say it, but either the hardware you folks in your particular part of Colorado were getting were all defective, or you just didn't know how to use them. Did you always put disks away back in their sleeves? Did you refrain from throwing them across the room or leaving them on the floor where they could be stepped upon? Did you keep your pocket magnets away from them? Did you avoid putting them in the dishwasher to clean them? The problem was not the drives. It was the diskettes you used and the way you treated them. Plain and simple. > Since you seem to know something I don't, which is always possible, > particularly in this arena, perhaps you can clear up what one can do > to recover from a disk failure "hang" when the Apple cannot read its > diskette. First of all, what operating system are we talking about, and what software are we running? If it's DOS 3.3, any disk error will result in some sort of error message and a return to the command prompt (if that's where you were). If there is an error encountered during the execution of a program, and the program is doing no error trapping, the program will break execution upon the disk error, returning you to the error prompt. If the program is doing error handling, then it will usually provide you with some sort of error message and a recovery option. If the program is written poorly, who knows what may happen. Perhaps THEN the computer will lock up. Does this describe YOUR experience? If so, what shit software were you running? All this pretty much applies to ProDOS as well, although ProDOS was a tad more robust. > This sort of thing seems to happen about once per hour if one is > running software the actually uses the disk drives, e.g. every two to > three seconds, continually for extended periods. It even occurs when > running CP/M on the Apple drives. That's why nobody I know did that. Like I said before, this is only happening in your partiular installation. If I were you, I'd look for high voltage (kilovolts) power lines running within 1 foot of your disk drives that may be causing eletromagnetic interference. Being that that is most likely an unlikely scenario (at least I would hope so, but it might explain your odd behavior) then I'd next look for any very powerful magents that you may have sitting near your disk drives. I would also have the room with your disk drives exorcized for any demons that might be in the area. Have your local pastor come in with some holy water. > If you know what to do to avoid having to restart and to avoid having > to give up on work entered manually since the last disk save, then > please, quote me the page and line in the documentation where it's > described. That's all most folks had to go on back when the Apple was > a current device. I can't answer your question. I would need more information from you. SO far, the only information you've given is "it doesn't work". You're a tech support nightmare. Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org From foo at siconic.com Thu Nov 8 05:18:20 2001 From: foo at siconic.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:36 2005 Subject: Stacking Apple ][ stuff In-Reply-To: <003701c1672a$43d1e100$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> Message-ID: On Tue, 6 Nov 2001, Richard Erlacher wrote: > Until you're prepared to show me that my observations made over the > past few weeks are incorrect, i.e. that no diskette damage occurs, > (this happens with APPLE][+ drives AND with the APPLE-][e) No, you need to give me proof that you are having the problems you say you are, and then provide other information such as environment, disks being used (manufacturer, type, etc.), and how the disks are being treated. You also need to tell me if your drives are properly aligned and adjusted for speed (use Copy ][+ for speed adjustment, alignment is trickier), and the heads are clean. Quick question, are you using high density diskettes? > What I wrote was that I'm tossing the things once I get the FOCAL > source and DOCUMENTATION into a form that can be distributed > conveniently. Just to P*SS you off, I may put 'em on eBay, though. > There aren't any parts worth salvaging, though most are socketed. You can do whatever you like with them. I can assure you I will be indifferent. > Yes, Sellam, but you've clearly had your head wedged where the sun > doesn't shine for much of that time and haven't a clue what you've Ha ha. That's pretty funny you saying that considering you're the guy that can't get something as simple as a disk drive to work. > really observed, if anything, else you'd know better than making an > inane statement like that. I don't doubt you're experienced "highly" > as we're all acquainted with your attitude about recreational > chemicals. It doesn't, you may be assured, contribute to the > credibility of your claims. I may have experienced a fair share of what Mother Nature has to offer, but at least I know how to work a computer. Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org From foo at siconic.com Thu Nov 8 05:25:55 2001 From: foo at siconic.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:36 2005 Subject: More Apple Pimpers In-Reply-To: <3BE893E4.5BB0FCD8@monumental.com> Message-ID: On Tue, 6 Nov 2001, Craig Landrum wrote: > the Apple II diskette drive, but I understand now. And yeah - the IWM > (Incredible Woz Machine) diskette controller WAS fairly sensitive. I > never owned an Apple II, but heard about them. What do you mean by the phrase "the IWM diskette controller was fairly sensitive"? Did it cry when you insulted it? Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org From mhstein at usa.net Thu Nov 8 05:43:51 2001 From: mhstein at usa.net (M H Stein) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:36 2005 Subject: Cromemco landmarks Message-ID: <01C16820.C3913480@mse-d03> Speaking of Cromemco, did you know (according to their literature) that aside from naming the S-100 bus, they also developed: -The first Z-80 micro -The first multi-user micro -The first Unix-like OS for a micro (Cromix) -The first micro with a Winchester HD -The first complete system with 16M/50MHD for <$50,000 -The first micro color graphics system -The first micro addressing memory >64K -The first micro with IBM RJE communication -The first intelligent micro I/O interfaces with a CPU on I/O card -The first micro implementation of I/O channel processors -The first micro to boot from ROM without front panel switches -The first self-programming EPROM card -The first micro with error-correcting memory -The first graphics system with hardware stenciling (whatever that is) -The first micro graphics system capable of sync'ing to a TV broadcast -The first micro with integrated floppy disks And that in 1987 an XXU equipped system was almost twice as fast as a VAX 11/780, which cost over four times as much as the largest Cromemco system at the time. From mhstein at usa.net Thu Nov 8 05:10:44 2001 From: mhstein at usa.net (M H Stein) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:36 2005 Subject: S100 stuff (was: Classic Gaming Collections) Message-ID: <01C16820.BF92DDC0@mse-d03> --------------Original Message------------------- Date: Mon, 5 Nov 2001 17:08:34 -0600 From: "John R. Keys Jr." Subject: Re: Classic Gaming Collections I for one have enlarged my gaming collection since it's getting harder to collect S100 and other older computer items. Every where I go now people tell me that they can get more on eBay than my offer. Some have called me back after trying to sell their items with no luck on eBay. ------------ Well John, don't say everywhere... I offered a bunch of Cromemco (the folks who named the S-100 bus) stuff here, 10 systems and probably about 100 cards, for next to nothing or pretty reasonable prices depending on the system/card, and to my surprise in the end I only got about 5 serious replies. I sure don't see a reply to my last email to you off-list... Granted, being in Toronto makes shipping of complete systems a bit expensive, but from my perspective it's getting harder to get rid of the stuff... mike From foo at siconic.com Thu Nov 8 05:39:16 2001 From: foo at siconic.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:36 2005 Subject: Apple Floppy Drives (was: More Apple Pimpers) In-Reply-To: <001d01c16750$2f2b5c60$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> Message-ID: On Tue, 6 Nov 2001, Richard Erlacher wrote: > It did so, however, at the cost that the resulting subsystem was a > mite prone to hiccup, which it still is. False. > It was never fixed, since there really isn't a way to fix it. Or because there was nothing to "fix". False. Next... > It's fragile, and the only way to live with that is to recognize the > vulnerabilities, and to work around them, which is clearly possible. False. > In 1981, the PC was released, and that was the death knell for > computers like the Apple. Even so, they hung on for several years. > Even devoted Apple][ fans, though, have, for the most part, sobered up > enough since the '80's to recognize that the Apple floppy disk > subsystem wasn't as solid as one might have hoped. False. One individual's beliefs do not reality make. Your experiences were not shared by even one one-hundreth of one-tenth of one percent of the total of Apple ][ users, evidenced by the fact that MILLIONS of Apple disk drives (and clones) were produced. Obviosuly, then, it was realiable. Your experiences, however, are not. > In the 8-9 years that I used 8" drives as my main medium for data > interchange, I had perhaps two or three diskette failures that I > remember, and I don' think many others had more trouble than I did. > That is not what I read and heard about the Apple disk subsystem. References? ISBN or volume and issue number and page number please. Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org From foo at siconic.com Thu Nov 8 05:54:57 2001 From: foo at siconic.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:36 2005 Subject: Apple Floppy Drives (was: More Apple Pimpers) In-Reply-To: <002501c167a6$3b4b30a0$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> Message-ID: On Wed, 7 Nov 2001, Richard Erlacher wrote: > A couple of factors are relevant here, namely my own experience with > the Apple][ series, and that of the guys who advise me on these > matters. I would say both of the factors you mention are unreliable, and therefore NOT relevant. > I've never been a frequent Apple user. Can you elucidate on this? Does this mean you used them for at most: a) 1 year b) 1 month c) 1 week d) 1 day e) 1 hour f) 1 minute g) 1 second h) less than 1 second > theory. Disk subsystem failures didn't even exist in my reality up to > that point. That clearly put me off the Apple, when I was told that > what I'd seen was pretty much normal operation of an Apple. Perhaps you mean you fell for some salesman's negative pitch on an Apple product so he could get you to pay for a much more expensive solution? Sucker. > If you think that the consensus among those professional users of the > Apple][ back in the day when it was, in fact, the tool many people > chose to use, is wrong, then I'd suggest you take it up with them. Who are these friends of yours? Names, numbers, addresses, and IQ levels pleases. Or just have them e-mail their experiences to the list. > I've reported on my own limited experience and the experiences of ^^^^^^^ > others, anecdotally reflected in a general agreement among those > experts, both of which seem to align quite well. When you use the word "experts", are we using it in the sense of the word in the English language? I.e. loosely defined as someone having a more in depth knowledge of a particular subject than the average person? If so, I would say, judging by what you have written so far, that your friends must NOT have been "expert" in using floppy disks. > Apple users constantly concerned themselves with backup copies of > their vital software and data. I made spares, but didn't lose sleep Anyone who values their data will make backup copies of it on a routine basis. If you observed that Apple users constantly concerned themselves with making backup copies, then perhaps we were smarter than your typical computer user. Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org From mhstein at usa.net Thu Nov 8 06:08:01 2001 From: mhstein at usa.net (M H Stein) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:36 2005 Subject: Cromemco landmarks Message-ID: <01C16824.1C530A00@mse-d03> Forgot a couple: -First micro to implement auto-baud detection -First micro based on Unix System V -First micro with high-level language microprogrammable co-processor But they did eventually also offer a PC clone... Anybody got one of these BTW, the C-20? mike From foo at siconic.com Thu Nov 8 06:07:29 2001 From: foo at siconic.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:36 2005 Subject: Apple Floppy Drives (was: More Apple Pimpers) In-Reply-To: <000c01c167b1$8aaab480$6b7b7b7b@ajp> Message-ID: On Wed, 7 Nov 2001, Allison wrote: > 1- Drives (SA400 was pure garbage!!!) > 2- horribly botched controllers (TRS-80 without mods) > 3- software such as disk drivers that would hang if no media or errors > 4- floppy drives/controlers that would "bite" the media on power up or > down meaning it would write trash due to no write locks. > 5- not enough space > > The apple-II was plagued with #1 and somewhat with #3 depending on > OS and definately #4. Space was a problem for many users(#5) Most software I used on the Apple ][ would not hang on a disk error. I only experienced that problem with certain games that had no provision for disk errors. Only very poorly written software would not recover properly from disk errors, but this is a bad software design issue, and not a hardware issue. As for having media in the drive upon power up, I learned early on from my cousin not to leave disks engaged in the drive at power up. In the very least I always opened the drive door before turning the machine on. Even if I was lazy, I rarely got bit by that issue. Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org From foo at siconic.com Thu Nov 8 06:12:21 2001 From: foo at siconic.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:36 2005 Subject: Apple Floppy Drives (was: More Apple Pimpers) In-Reply-To: <200111071807.fA7I7ea27799@jill.ssl.berkeley.edu> Message-ID: On Wed, 7 Nov 2001, Eric J. Korpela wrote: > I have to agree with Dick. Simple and clever, yes, but Disk ][ was > not all that bullet proof. The mechanism was reliable. I rarely > recall failure of the mechanism. But I certainly recall disks being > rendered unreadable by leaving a disk in the drive when powering down. > Lifetimes of frequently used disks were on order of months, even if > the disks were write protected. What media were you using? Was it quality media or cheap crap you could buy in bulk? What was your physical environment like? Clean and free of dust and debris? How did you store your disks? In a temperature and humidity that was amenable with diskettes, as suggested by the manufacturer? > Later Disk ][ drives didn't seem to have as many problems. I assume Canwe have some dates here so we know what timeframes we are discussing? (re: "later Disk ][ drives"). > I don't recall having as many problems with drives on other systems > with the exception of a Kaypro that would wipe most any disk over the > course of a couple hours. I only had access to the one Kaypro, so I > don't know if the problem was widespread. I would ask the same questions of you as above. Quality of media? Environment? Proper storage? And I would add: well-designed software? Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org From foo at siconic.com Thu Nov 8 06:21:36 2001 From: foo at siconic.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:36 2005 Subject: Apple Floppy Drives (was: More Apple Pimpers) In-Reply-To: <002101c167de$707e2380$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> Message-ID: On Wed, 7 Nov 2001, Richard Erlacher wrote: > The mechanism taken by itself may have been reliable enough, BUT, > since there was no track-zero sensor, (I think that's the reason) the > "recal" operation rams the head assembly into the outside stops > multiple times each time it is performed, and that's going to harm the > mechanism. Do that enough times and the system loses alignment, which > makes it prone to failure. As the drive changes in radial alignment, > the data written with it becomes "off-track" so it will be difficult > to read when the drive is realigned or when the diskette is put in a > properly aligned drive. The consequences of poor alignment is not an > Apple problem, though the Apple way of using the drives causes > misalignment more quickly than with drives that sense when track zero > has been reached. I never had problems as you describe, nor have I ever heard of anyone needing to adjust the alignment of an Apple disk drive. As far as I know, there is no procedure in the Disk ][ manual for aligning a drive, and as far as I know, there is no reason for needing one. Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org From foo at siconic.com Thu Nov 8 06:23:36 2001 From: foo at siconic.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:36 2005 Subject: Stacking Apple ][ stuff In-Reply-To: <20011108041442.PUVF25211.imf17bis.bellsouth.net@thegoodw> Message-ID: On Wed, 7 Nov 2001, Glen Goodwin wrote: > Dick, thanks for this valuable information. I haven't lost any data > yet but I think I'll take the easy way out and just set the disk drive > unit off to the side. Heh. His information is about as valuable as me telling you to put a lock on your underwear drawer so that your skivvies don't get heisted by the Underpants Gnomes. Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org From menadeau at mediaone.net Thu Nov 8 06:48:46 2001 From: menadeau at mediaone.net (Michael Nadeau) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:36 2005 Subject: Cromemco landmarks References: <01C16820.C3913480@mse-d03> Message-ID: <006d01c16853$b87600c0$0b01a8c0@ValuedCustomer> Alpha Microsystems, which apparently has recently become Optimal Systems Services, claimed the first multi-user micro, but it's not clear what date it was introduced. Stan Veit in his book says that Technical Design Labs and The Digital Group had Z80 systems before Cromemco, and I've seen other references to support that. I can't speak to the other claims. Cromemco definitely had the first *successful* Z80 micro. --Mike Michael Nadeau Editorial Services 603-893-2379 ----- Original Message ----- From: "M H Stein" To: "'ClassicComputers'" Sent: Thursday, November 08, 2001 6:43 AM Subject: Cromemco landmarks > Speaking of Cromemco, did you know (according to their literature) that > aside from naming the S-100 bus, they also developed: > > -The first Z-80 micro > -The first multi-user micro > -The first Unix-like OS for a micro (Cromix) > -The first micro with a Winchester HD > -The first complete system with 16M/50MHD for <$50,000 > -The first micro color graphics system > -The first micro addressing memory >64K > -The first micro with IBM RJE communication > -The first intelligent micro I/O interfaces with a CPU on I/O card > -The first micro implementation of I/O channel processors > -The first micro to boot from ROM without front panel switches > -The first self-programming EPROM card > -The first micro with error-correcting memory > -The first graphics system with hardware stenciling (whatever that is) > -The first micro graphics system capable of sync'ing to a TV broadcast > -The first micro with integrated floppy disks > > And that in 1987 an XXU equipped system was almost twice as fast as a > VAX 11/780, which cost over four times as much as the largest Cromemco > system at the time. > > From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Thu Nov 8 07:22:51 2001 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (Allison) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:38 2005 Subject: Cromemco landmarks Message-ID: <002601c16858$78bf53a0$6b7b7b7b@ajp> From: M H Stein >And that in 1987 an XXU equipped system was almost twice as fast as a >VAX 11/780, which cost over four times as much as the largest Cromemco >system at the time. Sounds impressive...save for in 1987 the VAX11/780 was 9 years old and out of widespread use!! By 1987 the microVAX had been around for a while, the midrange VAX was 4x-8x faster than the 780 and easily 1/3 the size! Cromemco was pretty neat but first, fastest not hardly. Allison From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Thu Nov 8 07:27:15 2001 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (Allison) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:40 2005 Subject: Cromemco landmarks Message-ID: <002901c16859$15f5e8a0$6b7b7b7b@ajp> >-The first Z-80 micro Nope. >-The first micro with a Winchester HD Nope. >-The first micro color graphics system Yes and significant. >-The first micro implementation of I/O channel processors Nope, IMSAI had a 8080 in the FDC. >-The first micro to boot from ROM without front panel switches Nope, NS* and a slew of others. First was likely the Poly 88. >-The first micro with integrated floppy disks Not hardly. Nice claims, put dates and supporting evidence up. Cromemco is best known for The Dazzler color display, RF tight systems in solid boxes and generally good systems. Allison From edick at idcomm.com Thu Nov 8 07:36:36 2001 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:40 2005 Subject: head-positioners - (was Apple Floppy Drives (was: More Apple Pimpers)) References: Message-ID: <002301c1685a$6349a280$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> That spiral cam was an attempt to reduce price and mass, I suppose. Like the stone wheel, I imagine it was better than SOME of the other options available at the time, in one respect or another. I don't remember at all (go figure!) what options there were at the time, short of the lead-screw that was used on 8" drives, for moving the heads. I've got a few pictures of Siemens mini-drives (5-1/4") that use lead screws, but I don't remember other vendors using them. Did Shugart make a minifloppy with a lead screw? The old BASF drives that I've cussed from time to time for their fragility at the door latch used that spiral cam arrangement. It was interesting, and, if you worked at it, you could foul it up, since it was readily accessible. Every other scheme I remember from that period used a tendon drive, as did the DS 8" drives, other than Siemens'. What do you remember? Dick ----- Original Message ----- From: "Don Maslin" To: Sent: Wednesday, November 07, 2001 9:57 PM Subject: Re: Apple Floppy Drives (was: More Apple Pimpers) > > > On Wed, 7 Nov 2001, Eric Chomko wrote: > > > Allison wrote: > > > > > General comment, > > > > > > Most 8" systems were expected be and behaved reliably and have > > > at least 250k of space. > > > > > > Most 5.25" systems could be reliable but, often weren't. I'll restrict > > > comments to 5.25" for the later reason. > > > > > > Most of the complaints I've had with disk systems be they Apple or not > > > were often in this order. > > > > > > 1- Drives (SA400 was pure garbage!!!) > > > > Whoa! I bought my Smoke Signal Broadcasting disk system back in 1978 > > with two SA400 drives. I added a third drive in the late 80s. To this day > > all three drives work great. I did switch drives 0 and 2 to allow the most > > used drive to get less use and the newest drive to become the main drive. > > But, I'd hardly call a disk drive "pure garbage" that has lasted for 12 and > > 23 years! And that is in lieu of the fact that they had a 5 year life > > expectency. > > > > my 2 cents... > > And worth every penny of it :) But the fact is, that despite your > fortunate experience, the spiral cam head positioner was probably the > worst idea since the stone wheel! > - don > > > > > > > > 2- horribly botched controllers (TRS-80 without mods) > > > 3- software such as disk drivers that would hang if no media or errors > > > 4- floppy drives/controlers that would "bite" the media on power up or > > > down. > > > meaning it would write trash due to no write locks. > > > 5- not enough space > > > > > > > Considering the alternative to #5 was cassette or paper tape, we lived with it! > > > > > > > > The apple-II was plagued with #1 and somewhat with #3 depending on > > > OS and definately #4. Space was a problem for many users(#5) > > > > > > > > > > Trash-80 was 1 through 5 example. > > > > > > NS* mostly #4 had to be watched if the drives were seperately powered and > > > earlier units were SA400 (#1 problem). The SD controller while bullet proof > > > was > > > space poor at 90k per drive (#5). > > > > > > > My SSB system was SS/SD soft-sector and had a whopping 80KB storage > > capacity per diskette. Didn't TRS-80, Apple II, Northstar and others ALL have > > a different scheme (i.e. more capacity, hard-sectoring, double sided/density)? > > > > My point is that, maybe they were trying to do to much with the little ole > > SA400 > > than the thinhs was designed to do? > > > > > > > > > > CCS used 8" disks and reliable controller. It was however prone to #4. > > > Many S100 system that used 8" drives and the better 5.25 drives fell > > > in this realm of reliability though most with 5.25 were pretty cramped > > > until 360k(DD) or 720->780k(QD aka two sided DD) formats were common. > > > > > > > By then CP/M and S-100 was dying. > > > > > > > > > > Of the most reliable my AmproLB+, Kaypro 4/84 with Advent turborom,NS* > > > (both SD and DD) and most of the post 1981 systems in the commercial > > > systems space. My expectations of reliable were set by minicomputers > > > long before micros I'd worked with where if the disk didn't work it was > > > something I did wrong. > > > > > > > Mini computers had their fare share of disk problems too. The Interdata 7/16 > > systems I worked on in the mid-70s were slated to be outfitted with > > floppy drives. They could never make them work. It was either hard disks > > (20 MB system, w/10MB fixed and 10MB removable), or good ole paper > > tape and TTYs. > > > > > > > > > > Of all, my opinion is that floppies were ok but the first real improvement > > > was the 3.5" drives(720k and 1.44m generation) with the power fail logic > > > on board. They offered good storage, small size, lower power, good > > > reliability > > > and quieter than the whole lot. > > > > > > > And the fact that the 1.44MB floppy is STILL a standard device on many > > systems to this very day. > > > > Eric > > > > > > > > Allison > > > > > > From cmurillo at emtelsa.multi.net.co Thu Nov 8 07:22:33 2001 From: cmurillo at emtelsa.multi.net.co (Carlos Murillo) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:40 2005 Subject: food In-Reply-To: References: <1334.712T1050T5194395optimus@canit.se> <3BE76EE1.D6F3898D@internet1.net> Message-ID: <3.0.2.32.20011108082233.0103ff04@obregon.multi.net.co> At 01:40 AM 11/8/01 -0800, you wrote: >What I am thinking about right now, in the middle of the night with no >chance of getting any is Mole'. Mole' is a Mexican sauce made from chili >and raw chocolate, and it has no equal on chicken. My son is really set on >some Mongolian food for lunch tomorrow too. Hmpf. Not all "moles" have chocolate in them. Poblano (the one you're probably talking about) does, as does mole negro and mole oaxaquen~o. But mole verde or mole amarillo don't have chocolate. You can try to search for some old posts that I wrote in rec.food.recipes, rec.food.cooking and alt.food.mexican on these and other mexican delicacies including a whole head of beef, very slowly cooked in a hole in the ground ("barbacoa de pozo"). Yum!. :-) . -------------------------------------------------------------- Carlos E. Murillo-Sanchez carlos_murillo@nospammers.ieee.org From edick at idcomm.com Thu Nov 8 07:45:13 2001 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:40 2005 Subject: food References: <1334.712T1050T5194395optimus@canit.se> Message-ID: <002d01c1685b$979dd320$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Iggy Drougge" To: "Chad Fernandez" Sent: Thursday, November 08, 2001 12:39 AM Subject: Re: food > Chad Fernandez skrev: > > >Richard Erlacher wrote: > >> Americans have always been somewhat "strange" about their diet, > > > And everything is very colourful. > Oh, and then there's that marshmallow butter, which I think you're supposed to > have on your sandwich. Makes Nutella seem like a wholesome product. =) > What??? You mean it isn't? I'd guess it's more so than the mostly-sugar things folks put on their morning toast if butter isn't enough. > -- > En ligne avec Thor 2.6a. > > BSD: A psychoactive drug, popular in the 80s, probably developed at UC > Berkeley or thereabouts. Similar in many ways to the prescription-only > medication called "System V", but infinitely more useful. (Or, at least, more > fun.) The full chemical name is "Berkeley Standard Distribution". > > > From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Thu Nov 8 08:07:21 2001 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (Allison) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:40 2005 Subject: head-positioners - (was Apple Floppy Drives (was: More Apple Pimpers)) Message-ID: <000801c1685e$b595ea40$6b7b7b7b@ajp> From: Richard Erlacher >I don't remember at all (go figure!) what options there were at the time, short >of the lead-screw that was used on 8" drives, for moving the heads. I've got a The options of the day were: type comment used on lead-screw -widely used SA800, 3.5" Voice coil -complex but very fast, persci spiral cam -slow and could be cranky SA400, others Band positioner - fast reliable as implemented not cheap. TEAC FD55 series The feature of the day for SA400 was low cost. From vance at ikickass.org Thu Nov 8 08:10:41 2001 From: vance at ikickass.org (One Without Reason) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:40 2005 Subject: DECSystem 5900 (fwd) In-Reply-To: <94.712T1300T5074805optimus@canit.se> Message-ID: You could run NetBSD just as easily as ULTRIX on it. Peace... Sridhar On 8 Nov 2001, Iggy Drougge wrote: > Got this on another list. You could run ULTRIX on it. I could supply a CD > image if necessary. > From vance at ikickass.org Thu Nov 8 08:13:21 2001 From: vance at ikickass.org (One Without Reason) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:40 2005 Subject: food In-Reply-To: <1334.712T1050T5194395optimus@canit.se> Message-ID: On 8 Nov 2001, Iggy Drougge wrote: > Chad Fernandez skrev: > > >Richard Erlacher wrote: > >> Americans have always been somewhat "strange" about their diet, > > >How? I've never seen anything that I thought was strange. We don't eat > >anything that is still alive, or wiggles, or whatever. Our food is > >pretty basic, with the exception maybe of some fancy stuff.... but a lot > >of that is foreign influence. > > I find it somewhat interesting how Americans define "foreign". Doesn't that > require something "indigenous"? =) Sure. There's food that's indigenous. There's definitely food that Americans came up with. > I can't say that I know much about American cousine, save for hamburgers, but > there is a shop in Stockholm which specialises in American food, and I must > say that the general impression I've got is that it's absolutely deranged. > Two examples: Mustard and mayonnaise mixed into one bottle. Smoke essence, > added to food in order to get a "grilled" quality. That's weird. I don't see that here in the US. > And everything is very colourful. I do see that here. > Oh, and then there's that marshmallow butter, which I think you're supposed to > have on your sandwich. Makes Nutella seem like a wholesome product. =) Fluff? Fluff is awesome. I eat it all the time. Peace... Sridhar > -- > En ligne avec Thor 2.6a. > > BSD: A psychoactive drug, popular in the 80s, probably developed at UC > Berkeley or thereabouts. Similar in many ways to the prescription-only > medication called "System V", but infinitely more useful. (Or, at least, more > fun.) The full chemical name is "Berkeley Standard Distribution". > > From vance at ikickass.org Thu Nov 8 08:15:35 2001 From: vance at ikickass.org (One Without Reason) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:40 2005 Subject: food In-Reply-To: <01C16816.817D0D30.technos@nerdland.org> Message-ID: On Thu, 8 Nov 2001, Jim wrote: > Also, I can assure you that no one uses mayo and mustard "mixed" (same > bottle?), > nor marshmallow "butter"(creme?). Fluff is used all the time here. Never had a peanut butter, jelly, and fluff sandwich? Eat in a cafeteria some time. Peace... Sridhar From RCini at congressfinancial.com Thu Nov 8 08:15:53 2001 From: RCini at congressfinancial.com (Cini, Richard) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:40 2005 Subject: OT: Dr Dobbs CD compression Message-ID: <497A9E0467D2D2119B760090271EB8E5879F29@MAIL10> Hi: I downloaded a few very old programs from the 80's from an on-line (probably illegal) version of the DDJ CD (version 7). These programs are in the ARC format, but when I use standard de-ARCing tools, I get CRC errors and the like. Does anyone know if this CD has a specially tuned version of ARC on it? Rich ========================== Richard A. Cini, Jr. Congress Financial Corporation 1133 Avenue of the Americas 30th Floor New York, NY 10036 (212) 545-4402 (212) 840-6259 (facsimile) From vance at ikickass.org Thu Nov 8 08:17:59 2001 From: vance at ikickass.org (One Without Reason) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:40 2005 Subject: food In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Well, the people here in New York, the people where my parents live in Phoenix, and where my parents' best friends live in Orlando, people basically talk about the same stuff when they're talking about American food. Basically diner food. Peace... Sridhar On Thu, 8 Nov 2001, Mike Ford wrote: > >>> Americans have always been somewhat "strange" about their diet, > > >I find it somewhat interesting how Americans define "foreign". Doesn't that > > Hey, its a BIG place here, and each region came from different cultures, so > every few hundred miles in any direction and "American" cuisine changes. > Most of the country accepts a "normal" meal as soup/salad (lettuce, nothing > too odd)/meat and potatoes with some veggie/dessert. What you get used to > though, is everything else, and maybe the disease we pass to the rest of > the world is fast food. > > What I am thinking about right now, in the middle of the night with no > chance of getting any is Mole'. Mole' is a Mexican sauce made from chili > and raw chocolate, and it has no equal on chicken. My son is really set on > some Mongolian food for lunch tomorrow too. Hmpf. > > From edick at idcomm.com Thu Nov 8 08:20:54 2001 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:40 2005 Subject: food References: <3BE76EE1.D6F3898D@internet1.net> Message-ID: <003f01c16860$939d6740$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> see below, plz Dick ----- Original Message ----- From: "Mike Ford" To: Sent: Thursday, November 08, 2001 2:40 AM Subject: Re: food > maybe the disease we pass to the rest of the world is fast food. > Fast food wasn't a bad idea, initially, when it was pretty fast and pretty nearly food. Now, it seems as though it's neither nowadays. When I was a boy, I worked at one of the first two McDonalds' outlets (I hate to call them "restaurants") in Denver. Working the "window" meant you were fired if it took longer than 30 seconds to process an order, aside from making change. Of course customers didn't have to deal with the confusing menus and confusing prices. A burger (no cheeseburgers back then) cost $0.15, fries cost $0.11, and a vanilla milkshake cost $0.21. That was the range of the offering, and it was really fast. Now, was it food? ... well ... > > > From vance at ikickass.org Thu Nov 8 08:21:04 2001 From: vance at ikickass.org (One Without Reason) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:40 2005 Subject: Cromemco landmarks In-Reply-To: <01C16820.C3913480@mse-d03> Message-ID: On Thu, 8 Nov 2001, M H Stein wrote: > And that in 1987 an XXU equipped system was almost twice as fast as a > VAX 11/780, which cost over four times as much as the largest Cromemco > system at the time. But, by 1987, there were MicroVAXen that were more than twice the speed of an 11/780. Peace... Sridhar From SUPRDAVE at aol.com Thu Nov 8 08:21:24 2001 From: SUPRDAVE at aol.com (SUPRDAVE@aol.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:41 2005 Subject: Stacking Apple ][ stuff Message-ID: <16b.396aecd.291beee4@aol.com> In a message dated 11/8/2001 5:06:19 AM Central Standard Time, foo@siconic.com writes: > > problem either. I know there is some kind of problem relating to the > > duodisk and disks getting trashed (anyone know details?) but nothing > > ever related to the display. > > I used and continue to use a Duodisk on my APple //e system and I can't > recall ever having a disk get mysteriously trashed so I don't know of what > you speak. > I do remember reading something of a faulty/out of spec component inside the duodisk that would cause some issues with the floppy drives but like I said, coming up 404 on it. Think I'll ask in comp.sys..... and find out for sure. clearing the HYPE about bioterrorism www.formatc.org/terrorism.htm -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20011108/db640915/attachment.html From edick at idcomm.com Thu Nov 8 08:23:30 2001 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:41 2005 Subject: food References: Message-ID: <004701c16860$f09796a0$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> In some respects it's about getting people to "try" something they aren't accustomed to eating, just like when I was trying to train my kids. It's really not bad, if the mayonaise isn't too salty, and the mustard hasn't got too much vinegar in it. Dick ----- Original Message ----- From: "Mike Ford" To: Sent: Thursday, November 08, 2001 4:08 AM Subject: RE: food > >Also, I can assure you that no one uses mayo and mustard "mixed" (same > >bottle?), > > Dijonaise, perfect for turkey sandwiches and served on half the airlines. > Made by Best Foods. > From vance at ikickass.org Thu Nov 8 08:23:30 2001 From: vance at ikickass.org (One Without Reason) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:41 2005 Subject: Stacking Apple ][ stuff In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Thu, 8 Nov 2001, Sellam Ismail wrote: > His information is about as valuable as me telling you to put a lock on > your underwear drawer so that your skivvies don't get heisted by the > Underpants Gnomes. Hey. That information is *always* valuable. You don't want your underpants stolen by the underpants gnomes, afterall. Peace... Sridhar From vance at ikickass.org Thu Nov 8 08:25:22 2001 From: vance at ikickass.org (One Without Reason) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:41 2005 Subject: Cromemco landmarks In-Reply-To: <002601c16858$78bf53a0$6b7b7b7b@ajp> Message-ID: On Thu, 8 Nov 2001, Allison wrote: > From: M H Stein > > >And that in 1987 an XXU equipped system was almost twice as fast as a > >VAX 11/780, which cost over four times as much as the largest Cromemco > >system at the time. > > Sounds impressive...save for in 1987 the VAX11/780 was 9 years old and > out of widespread use!! By 1987 the microVAX had been around for a while, > the midrange VAX was 4x-8x faster than the 780 and easily 1/3 the size! That, and there were much faster machines than VAXen back then. Peace... Sridhar > Cromemco was pretty neat but first, fastest not hardly. > > Allison > > From spedraja at ono.com Thu Nov 8 08:27:38 2001 From: spedraja at ono.com (SP) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:41 2005 Subject: S100 stuff (was: Classic Gaming Collections) Message-ID: <006801c16861$84e06760$0301a8c0@margarita.spedraja.net> >I offered a bunch of Cromemco (the folks who named the S-100 bus) >stuff here, 10 systems and probably about 100 cards, for next to nothing >or pretty reasonable prices depending on the system/card, and to my >surprise in the end I only got about 5 serious replies. And one of them wasn't me because I hadn't idea of this offer :-) (probably because I was off the list too). Never is too late to get one of these systems. Greetings Sergio From SUPRDAVE at aol.com Thu Nov 8 08:30:50 2001 From: SUPRDAVE at aol.com (SUPRDAVE@aol.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:41 2005 Subject: Apple Floppy Drives (was: More Apple Pimpers) Message-ID: <102.ba14cad.291bf11a@aol.com> In a message dated 11/8/2001 6:34:09 AM Central Standard Time, foo@siconic.com writes: > On Wed, 7 Nov 2001, Allison wrote: > > > 1- Drives (SA400 was pure garbage!!!) > > 2- horribly botched controllers (TRS-80 without mods) > > 3- software such as disk drivers that would hang if no media or > errors > > 4- floppy drives/controlers that would "bite" the media on power up > or > > down meaning it would write trash due to no write locks. > > 5- not enough space > > > > The apple-II was plagued with #1 and somewhat with #3 depending on > > OS and definately #4. Space was a problem for many users(#5) > > Most software I used on the Apple ][ would not hang on a disk error. I > only experienced that problem with certain games that had no provision for > disk errors. Only very poorly written software would not recover properly > from disk errors, but this is a bad software design issue, and not a > hardware issue. > > As for having media in the drive upon power up, I learned early on from my > cousin not to leave disks engaged in the drive at power up. In the very > least I always opened the drive door before turning the machine on. Even > if I was lazy, I rarely got bit by that issue. > > Sellam Ismail Agreed, most games and programs I ran (which were copies of copies of copies...) usually could recover from wrong disk, or I/O errors. Even the type in programs from NIBBLE magazine had error handling routines. I don't personally remember having a disk failure from powering up with a disk in the drive. Heck, I remember taking disks out while the disk access light was on! Perhaps I was luckier than most? clearing the HYPE about bioterrorism www.formatc.org/terrorism.htm -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20011108/38a544bb/attachment.html From pechter at ureach.com Thu Nov 8 08:31:19 2001 From: pechter at ureach.com (Bill Pechter) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:41 2005 Subject: Cromemco landmarks Message-ID: <200111081431.JAA16560@stage21.ureach.com> ---- On Thu, 8 Nov 2001, Allison (ajp166@bellatlantic.net) wrote: > From: M H Stein > > >And that in 1987 an XXU equipped system was almost twice as fast as a > >VAX 11/780, which cost over four times as much as the largest Cromemco > >system at the time. > > > Sounds impressive...save for in 1987 the VAX11/780 was 9 years old and > out of widespread use!! By 1987 the microVAX had been around for a > while, > the midrange VAX was 4x-8x faster than the 780 and easily 1/3 the size! > > Cromemco was pretty neat but first, fastest not hardly. > > Allison The 11/780 may have been in decline by 1987... but out of widespread use isn't true. A large number of 11/780's were still being used in commercial locations (although many had been upgraded to 11/780-5's -- non FCC'd 11/785's)... but many were still in commercial use after the scientific number cruncher types moved from the 11/780 to newer faster and smaller boxes or to bigger boxes like the 8650. There were many 11/780's still in use through the late 80's at various sites... many outside the US. Saying the 11/780 was out of widespread use in '87 is like saying the 11/70 was out of widespread use in 85. Not true if you ever were in AT&T, or any ex-Bell Operating Company -- they were buying 11/70's through 1984 or so from DEC as refurbs. Bill -- Bill Pechter Systems Administrator uReach Technologies 732-335-5432 (Work) 877-661-2126 (Fax) From SUPRDAVE at aol.com Thu Nov 8 08:36:33 2001 From: SUPRDAVE at aol.com (SUPRDAVE@aol.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:41 2005 Subject: Apple Floppy Drives (was: More Apple Pimpers) Message-ID: <35.1d810de9.291bf271@aol.com> In a message dated 11/8/2001 6:44:58 AM Central Standard Time, foo@siconic.com writes: > On Wed, 7 Nov 2001, Richard Erlacher wrote: > > > The mechanism taken by itself may have been reliable enough, BUT, > > since there was no track-zero sensor, (I think that's the reason) the > > "recal" operation rams the head assembly into the outside stops > > multiple times each time it is performed, and that's going to harm the > > mechanism. Do that enough times and the system loses alignment, which > > makes it prone to failure. As the drive changes in radial alignment, > > the data written with it becomes "off-track" so it will be difficult > > to read when the drive is realigned or when the diskette is put in a > > properly aligned drive. The consequences of poor alignment is not an > > Apple problem, though the Apple way of using the drives causes > > misalignment more quickly than with drives that sense when track zero > > has been reached. > > I never had problems as you describe, nor have I ever heard of anyone > needing to adjust the alignment of an Apple disk drive. > > As far as I know, there is no procedure in the Disk ][ manual for aligning > a drive, and as far as I know, there is no reason for needing one. > > Sellam I would think that the only time an alignment would be required is when disks written from one drive will not work in another drive assuming the rotation speed is the same. I did need to have a drive aligned once in 1987 or so when for some reason, both the drive AND the controller card went bad. Not knowing any better, I tried all my dos3.3 floppies, which hosed the boot track, rendering them unusable. Never have fixed those disks yet. probably are still readable too. Somewhere in my extensive stash of apple goodies, I do have some genuine alignment disks but are useless to anyone unless you have an ocilloscope hooked up and know what you are doing. Anyone can adjust the rotation speed, however. I still say the disk ][ was the best disk subsystem around. fast(er) and reliable and decent storage I think at 143k. clearing the HYPE about bioterrorism www.formatc.org/terrorism.htm -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20011108/fb7df923/attachment.html From SUPRDAVE at aol.com Thu Nov 8 08:37:37 2001 From: SUPRDAVE at aol.com (SUPRDAVE@aol.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:41 2005 Subject: More Apple Pimpers Message-ID: <11c.72047d2.291bf2b1@aol.com> In a message dated 11/8/2001 2:28:02 AM Central Standard Time, optimus@canit.se writes: > Douglas Quebbeman skrev: > > >Macs up through at least the MacPlus have a single-chip > >implemntation of the IWM that they used for both the > >never-shipped Twiggy drives (never shipped in Macs) and > >the later 400k/800k 3.5" floppies. > > The "integrated Woz machine". =/ > According to NetBSD, my LC475 is equipped with an IWM, too. What a hardy > little design. > > I have heard of the SWIM (super....) chip. What does that come in, macs or the GS? clearing the HYPE about bioterrorism www.formatc.org/terrorism.htm -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20011108/8455f1b8/attachment.html From edick at idcomm.com Thu Nov 8 08:45:20 2001 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:41 2005 Subject: hard-sector 5 1/4 disk References: Message-ID: <004d01c16863$fd55e380$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Sellam Ismail" To: Sent: Thursday, November 08, 2001 4:05 AM Subject: Re: hard-sector 5 1/4 disk > On Tue, 6 Nov 2001, Richard Erlacher wrote: > > > I would label this as consensus rather than opinion, Sellam, as I've > > What kind of "consensus" is a consensus of one? > Perhaps you should ask yourself that, Sellam. When I'm inexperienced with a particular piece of equipment, e.g. the Apple series of products, I seek advice from folks of whom I know they have extensive experience working with that particular machine. In order to avoid falling into a trap with too limited a base of experience, I check with more than one such individual. Unlike you, Sellam, some folks actually did useful work with these machines, in spite of their apparent weaknesses. There were ways in which one could avoid the pitfalls associated with the various problems that were discovered, and there were a number of problems that weren't real, but which suffered from a high level of folklore among their user community. The guys who actually earned their living with Apple hardware generally knew this, and, since I knew what kinds of cars and houses their work provided them back then, I find it a reasonable way to benefit from the experience of those who were successful at using those tools. I don't listen to the guys who were selling used cars then and are selling stocks now, no matter how skilled they are at talking about the Apple. > > > actually done very little with Apple][ since the early '80's, but I've > > had to deal with the problems others have brought to me, which were > > trivially solvable by plucking out the offending component, namely the > > Apple][ disk subsystem. Once the disk subsystem has been gone, the > > Apple][ was quite solid and predictable, in ways other than, "well, > > it's work for another hour or so ... then the disk won't be readable > > any longer ...." > > Fairytales. > > > I think your recollection is tainted by the Apple-colored glasses, > > It's not a "recollection". As I said, I still use my Appple //e to this > day. Before my //e I had a ][+ I used for a few years. NEVER did I have > the problems you say you encountered. Your whole story is suspect. I > hate to say it, but either the hardware you folks in your particular part > of Colorado were getting were all defective, or you just didn't know how > to use them. > > Did you always put disks away back in their sleeves? Did you refrain > from throwing them across the room or leaving them on the floor where they > could be stepped upon? Did you keep your pocket magnets away from them? > Did you avoid putting them in the dishwasher to clean them? > > The problem was not the drives. It was the diskettes you used and the way > you treated them. Plain and simple. > If that were the case, those habits would have shown up in contexts other than the Apple. > > > Since you seem to know something I don't, which is always possible, > > particularly in this arena, perhaps you can clear up what one can do > > to recover from a disk failure "hang" when the Apple cannot read its > > diskette. > > First of all, what operating system are we talking about, and what > software are we running? > > If it's DOS 3.3, any disk error will result in some sort of error message > and a return to the command prompt (if that's where you were). If there > is an error encountered during the execution of a program, and the program > is doing no error trapping, the program will break execution upon the disk > error, returning you to the error prompt. If the program is doing error > handling, then it will usually provide you with some sort of error message > and a recovery option. If the program is written poorly, who knows what > may happen. Perhaps THEN the computer will lock up. Does this describe > YOUR experience? If so, what shit software were you running? > > All this pretty much applies to ProDOS as well, although ProDOS was a tad > more robust. > > > This sort of thing seems to happen about once per hour if one is > > running software the actually uses the disk drives, e.g. every two to > > three seconds, continually for extended periods. It even occurs when > > running CP/M on the Apple drives. That's why nobody I know did that. > > Like I said before, this is only happening in your partiular installation. > If I were you, I'd look for high voltage (kilovolts) power lines running > within 1 foot of your disk drives that may be causing eletromagnetic > interference. Being that that is most likely an unlikely scenario (at > least I would hope so, but it might explain your odd behavior) then I'd > next look for any very powerful magents that you may have sitting near > your disk drives. I would also have the room with your disk drives > exorcized for any demons that might be in the area. Have your local > pastor come in with some holy water. > > > If you know what to do to avoid having to restart and to avoid having > > to give up on work entered manually since the last disk save, then > > please, quote me the page and line in the documentation where it's > > described. That's all most folks had to go on back when the Apple was > > a current device. > > I can't answer your question. I would need more information from you. SO > far, the only information you've given is "it doesn't work". Unfortunately, the Apple just lights the LED on the drive and hangs. If it were limited to a single system, that's what I'd suspect, but it behaves just the same on an ][+, IIe, and //c. by virtue of the physical differences, some of these "difficulties" aren't encountered on the //c, since it doesn't have drives sitting between the main box and the monitor. > You're a tech support nightmare. > > Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ > International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org > > From spectre at stockholm.ptloma.edu Thu Nov 8 08:53:43 2001 From: spectre at stockholm.ptloma.edu (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:41 2005 Subject: Stacking Apple ][ stuff In-Reply-To: from One Without Reason at "Nov 8, 1 09:23:30 am" Message-ID: <200111081453.GAA09774@stockholm.ptloma.edu> > > His information is about as valuable as me telling you to put a lock on > > your underwear drawer so that your skivvies don't get heisted by the > > Underpants Gnomes. > > Hey. That information is *always* valuable. You don't want your > underpants stolen by the underpants gnomes, afterall. Depends on how good looking the underpants gnomes are. *duck and run* -- ----------------------------- personal page: http://www.armory.com/~spectre/ -- Cameron Kaiser, Point Loma Nazarene University * ckaiser@stockholm.ptloma.edu -- DON'T PANIC! --------------------------------------------------------------- From wrm at ccii.co.za Thu Nov 8 09:32:33 2001 From: wrm at ccii.co.za (Wouter de Waal) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:41 2005 Subject: hard-sector 5 1/4 disk Message-ID: <200111081532.RAA06819@ccii.co.za> Hi again I for one ran an Apple ][ (clone) with two floppies and a monitor on top of the box, for a long long time, and the only problems I had was when the one-shots in the drive (how's that for a (belated) thread merge? :-) drifted so far that disks from one drive wouldn't read on the other. And yes, I still have the system, and it still reads the disks. I owe Tony an apology: >Why suspect the FDC? This soulds like nothing more than a shorted or >leaky keyswitch. Have yoy taken the keyboard apart to check for this yet. I found the correct pins for "Enter" and the floppy tries to read the disk... I made a disk on the peecee but I since found out that peecees can't make SD disks... time to go find an old XT disk controller (I have a few :-) and gippo it to read and write SD. Seeya Wouter in digest mode From hofmanwb at worldonline.nl Thu Nov 8 10:04:37 2001 From: hofmanwb at worldonline.nl (W.B.(Wim) Hofman) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:41 2005 Subject: Spares for IP11 References: Message-ID: <004001c1686f$ae1a43e0$31c8f0c3@cx> Is there any professional interest for spares for IP11/IPV11/IP300 systems. I was asked to make a bid for a complete IP11 installatiom that was running and put to a stop 2 years ago Components of the installation are: M5031 -> 19 ea M6015 -> 9 ea G670 (M5014) -> 16 ea A014 -> 3 ea A156 -> 7 ea A020 -> 1 sea M8719 -> 1 ea Racks with power supply -> 8 ea + cables + 3 cabinets containing the racks Please contact me offlist if you notice any components you would need. Most cards were ok 2 years ago. I could test cards before sending them. I am located in Arnhem, The Netherlands Wim From dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com Thu Nov 8 10:39:50 2001 From: dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com (Douglas Quebbeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:41 2005 Subject: Dr Dobbs CD compression Message-ID: <7A9BACCEF0171D4FB77019F5104CDD3722588C@jeffserver.tegjeff.com> > I downloaded a few very old programs from the 80's from an on-line > (probably illegal) version of the DDJ CD (version 7). These programs are in > the ARC format, but when I use standard de-ARCing tools, I get CRC errors > and the like. > > Does anyone know if this CD has a specially tuned version of ARC on > it? The ancient ARC.COM from SEA in the 80s doesn't work? Have you tried PKXARC.COM? -dq From dtwright at uiuc.edu Thu Nov 8 10:48:50 2001 From: dtwright at uiuc.edu (Dan Wright) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:41 2005 Subject: DECSystem 5900 (fwd) In-Reply-To: <94.712T1300T5074805optimus@canit.se>; from optimus@canit.se on Thu, Nov 08, 2001 at 08:27:26AM +0100 References: <94.712T1300T5074805optimus@canit.se> Message-ID: <20011108104850.E4492598@uiuc.edu> What is it? it sounds interesting... Iggy Drougge said: > Got this on another list. You could run ULTRIX on it. I could supply a CD > image if necessary. > From: "Erik Bennett" > To: port-pmax@netbsd.org > Subject: DECSystem 5900 > Date: 7 Nov 2001 03:16:50 GMT > > I've got a DECSystem 5900 that's needing a home. It's got 2 of the > 32MB memory modules. It's the slower chip, but I can't recall the MHz. > > I got it at an auction when buying a rack and was surprised to find it > in there. > > It *seemed* to power up OK (20 amp 120VAC power suppy included). > > I was going to load BSD on it, but I can't see how I'm going to get to > it in this lifetime. It looks like it's got a couple of WREN drives > in it, but I can't be sure. > > Let me know if anyone's interested. It'd be a crime to see a machine > this heavy go to waste. > > > -Erik > > Erik Bennett bennett@corp.or.com > - Dan Wright (dtwright@uiuc.edu) (http://www.uiuc.edu/~dtwright) -] ------------------------------ [-] -------------------------------- [- ``Weave a circle round him thrice, / And close your eyes with holy dread, For he on honeydew hath fed, / and drunk the milk of Paradise.'' Samuel Taylor Coleridge, Kubla Khan -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 229 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20011108/c7325cc7/attachment.bin From dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com Thu Nov 8 10:49:15 2001 From: dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com (Douglas Quebbeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:41 2005 Subject: Clearly OT (but what the hell...) (was: food Message-ID: <7A9BACCEF0171D4FB77019F5104CDD3722588D@jeffserver.tegjeff.com> > On Nov 7, 8:08, Douglas Quebbeman wrote: > > > > Traditionally served [...] on special occasions like Burn's Night with a glass of > > > whisky. > > > This Son of Clan Keith is wondering which night of the week that > > Burn's Night falls on? > > It varies. Which night would you like? :-) Any night whose name ends in the letter 'Y' and which occurs once each week... but Chris already informed me this is merely a yearly affair... one I'm sure to look forward to if I have to wait a year for a wee dram! -dq From dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com Thu Nov 8 10:52:17 2001 From: dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com (Douglas Quebbeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:41 2005 Subject: food Message-ID: <7A9BACCEF0171D4FB77019F5104CDD3722588E@jeffserver.tegjeff.com> > I find it somewhat interesting how Americans define "foreign". Doesn't that > require something "indigenous"? =) Well, pemmican is indigenous... there are also some corn dishes that are supposed to predate European arrival. -dq From korpela at ssl.berkeley.edu Thu Nov 8 10:54:54 2001 From: korpela at ssl.berkeley.edu (Eric J. Korpela) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:41 2005 Subject: Apple Floppy Drives (was: More Apple Pimpers) In-Reply-To: from Sellam Ismail at "Nov 8, 2001 04:12:21 am" Message-ID: <200111081654.IAA19360@ellie.ssl.berkeley.edu> > > I have to agree with Dick. Simple and clever, yes, but Disk ][ was > > not all that bullet proof. The mechanism was reliable. I rarely > > recall failure of the mechanism. But I certainly recall disks being > > rendered unreadable by leaving a disk in the drive when powering down. > > Lifetimes of frequently used disks were on order of months, even if > > the disks were write protected. > > What media were you using? Was it quality media or cheap crap you could > buy in bulk? What was your physical environment like? Clean and free of > dust and debris? How did you store your disks? In a temperature and > humidity that was amenable with diskettes, as suggested by the > manufacturer? It was at a school, a generally clean and environmentally friendly area. Disks were from assorted manufacturers. I'd have to go pull out some disks to find out. The same disks were used in CP/M and TRS-80 machines and didn't have as many problems. Diskettes were generally stored in plastic 10 disk cases. > > Later Disk ][ drives didn't seem to have as many problems. I assume > > Canwe have some dates here so we know what timeframes we are discussing? > (re: "later Disk ][ drives"). I'd say that roughly 1981 would be the dividing line. I didn't keep a journal, though. > > I don't recall having as many problems with drives on other systems > > with the exception of a Kaypro that would wipe most any disk over the > > course of a couple hours. I only had access to the one Kaypro, so I > > don't know if the problem was widespread. > > I would ask the same questions of you as above. Quality of media? > Environment? Proper storage? Identical. > And I would add: well-designed software? Didn't seem much correlated with what software was running, other than machines running CP/M on softcards were especially prone to rendering CP/M boot disks unbootable. I assume it had something to do with where the heads were generally resting. Eric From dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com Thu Nov 8 10:56:21 2001 From: dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com (Douglas Quebbeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:41 2005 Subject: Refilling Toner Carts (was RE: Rubber Restorer...) Message-ID: <7A9BACCEF0171D4FB77019F5104CDD3722588F@jeffserver.tegjeff.com> > > One possible problem, Sodium Hydroxide < .5% could be damaging and > > corrosive to metalic parts. > > About the only common material that sodium hydroxide will attack is > aluminium, and then only when concentrated or exposure is reasonably long; > it has no effect on copper, steel, etc. Yeah, I've relied on this as a way to make satin-finish aluminum front panels for equipment. As the reaction progresses, the NAO2 (?) solution has to be preiodlically replaced. It generally took me about two days to get the desired look. -dq From mcguire at neurotica.com Thu Nov 8 11:04:37 2001 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:41 2005 Subject: DECSystem 5900 (fwd) In-Reply-To: Re: DECSystem 5900 (fwd) (Dan Wright) References: <94.712T1300T5074805optimus@canit.se> <20011108104850.E4492598@uiuc.edu> Message-ID: <15338.47909.725008.251434@phaduka.neurotica.com> On November 8, Dan Wright wrote: > What is it? it sounds interesting... It's essentially a DECstation5000-240 in a rackmount box. -Dave -- Dave McGuire St. Petersburg, FL From uban at ubanproductions.com Thu Nov 8 11:08:39 2001 From: uban at ubanproductions.com (Tom Uban) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:41 2005 Subject: KM11 and RK11-D In-Reply-To: <20011108003953.Y92508-100000@lepton.subatomix.com> References: <3.0.5.32.20011107165839.008fbaa0@ubanproductions.com> Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.20011108110839.00926100@ubanproductions.com> >From what I can tell, if you are using both in the same 16-bit PDP11 environment, the major difference is that the RK11-C only performs a single header check while the RK11-D performs 16 header checks. The RK11-D can also be configured to work in an 18-bit machine (not sure about the RK11-C, but I dougbt it) and can also be configured with a higher speed crystal, presumably to support a higher speed drive than the RK05. Tony may know more on this. --tom At 12:41 AM 11/8/01 -0600, you wrote: >On Wed, 7 Nov 2001, Tom Uban wrote: > >> > NEver with a -D. I've used a pair of them with an RK11-C (a rack of >> > flip-chip cards), but that's different enough to be irrelevant. >> >> Yep, used to have one of those (years ago) before I could afford the >> RK11-D. > >Ok, it's newbie time. Is there any functional difference between the -C >and -D? That is, can either do things the other cannot? > >-- >Jeffrey S. Sharp >jss@subatomix.com > > > From als at thangorodrim.de Thu Nov 8 11:23:50 2001 From: als at thangorodrim.de (Alexander Schreiber) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:41 2005 Subject: Missing was Re: OS9 or Flex09 on 8" disk needed In-Reply-To: <691.708T350T2364195optimus@canit.se> References: <3BE48E4F.55EA100A@home.com> <691.708T350T2364195optimus@canit.se> Message-ID: <20011108182350.B25885@mordor.angband.thangorodrim.de> On Sun, Nov 04, 2001 at 03:56:07AM +0100, Iggy Drougge wrote: > Doug Coward skrev: > > > Ben Franchuk wrote: > >> I thought try this ... > >> "The Missing 6809 UniFLEX Archive" http://www.rtmx.com/UniFLEX/ > >> but the webpage is now missing! Does anybody know what happened to it? > >> This very bad when old information vanishes with out a trace on the web. > > > Too offen I find web pages that I count on turn up missing, so I have > >started trying out a program called WebZIP. > > http://www.spidersoft.com/default.asp > > I tend to use wget. Runs on everything. The only problem is, it's a GNU > program, and that's a big problem. Why would that be a problem? I tend to use wget a lot and it does a pretty good job. Regards, Alex. -- q: If you were young again, would you start writing TeX again or would you use Microsoft Word, or another word processor? a: I hope to die before I *have* to use Microsoft Word. -- Harald Koenig asking Donald E. Knuth From cisin at xenosoft.com Thu Nov 8 11:38:39 2001 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin (XenoSoft)) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:41 2005 Subject: Cromemco landmarks In-Reply-To: <006d01c16853$b87600c0$0b01a8c0@ValuedCustomer> Message-ID: In order to get many of those "firsts", Cromemco sometimes got quite creative with definitions and boundaries. For example, "first 16M <$50K" is probably setting the line to rule out somebody else that had a 15M. "First micro with integrated floppy drives" probably has an interesting definition of "micro" to exclude some, and definition of "integrated"? For example, they probably exclude from "micro" S-100 systems that used third party Z-80 boards, etc. On Thu, 8 Nov 2001, Michael Nadeau wrote: > Alpha Microsystems, which apparently has recently become Optimal Systems > Services, claimed the first multi-user micro, but it's not clear what date > it was introduced. > > Stan Veit in his book says that Technical Design Labs and The Digital Group > had Z80 systems before Cromemco, and I've seen other references to support > that. I can't speak to the other claims. Cromemco definitely had the first > *successful* Z80 micro. > > --Mike > > Michael Nadeau > Editorial Services > 603-893-2379 > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "M H Stein" > To: "'ClassicComputers'" > Sent: Thursday, November 08, 2001 6:43 AM > Subject: Cromemco landmarks > > > > Speaking of Cromemco, did you know (according to their literature) that > > aside from naming the S-100 bus, they also developed: > > > > -The first Z-80 micro > > -The first multi-user micro > > -The first Unix-like OS for a micro (Cromix) > > -The first micro with a Winchester HD > > -The first complete system with 16M/50MHD for <$50,000 > > -The first micro color graphics system > > -The first micro addressing memory >64K > > -The first micro with IBM RJE communication > > -The first intelligent micro I/O interfaces with a CPU on I/O card > > -The first micro implementation of I/O channel processors > > -The first micro to boot from ROM without front panel switches > > -The first self-programming EPROM card > > -The first micro with error-correcting memory > > -The first graphics system with hardware stenciling (whatever that is) > > -The first micro graphics system capable of sync'ing to a TV broadcast > > -The first micro with integrated floppy disks > > > > And that in 1987 an XXU equipped system was almost twice as fast as a > > VAX 11/780, which cost over four times as much as the largest Cromemco > > system at the time. From korpela at ssl.berkeley.edu Thu Nov 8 11:40:51 2001 From: korpela at ssl.berkeley.edu (Eric J. Korpela) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:41 2005 Subject: food In-Reply-To: <1334.712T1050T5194395optimus@canit.se> from Iggy Drougge at "Nov 8, 2001 08:39:21 am" Message-ID: <200111081740.JAA20339@ellie.ssl.berkeley.edu> > I find it somewhat interesting how Americans define "foreign". Doesn't that > require something "indigenous"? =) > I can't say that I know much about American cousine, save for hamburgers, but > there is a shop in Stockholm which specialises in American food, and I must > say that the general impression I've got is that it's absolutely deranged. > Two examples: Mustard and mayonnaise mixed into one bottle. Smoke essence, > added to food in order to get a "grilled" quality. > And everything is very colourful. > Oh, and then there's that marshmallow butter, which I think you're supposed to > have on your sandwich. Makes Nutella seem like a wholesome product. =) Outside of the US, the general impression you get of American food is always deranged. I've lived in the US for my entire life and have never been subjected to marshmallow butter, or a mixed mustard and mayonnaise. Smoke essence, occasionally, since it's usually an ingredient of BBQ potato chips. The reality is that in the US, when you go for Mexican food you are usually getting american food with mexican roots. Same goes for any other ethnicity. American food, like american culture, is a mixture of whatever people brought with them and what was already here when they arrived. The best of it is great, the worst of it is really bad. You can't claim it lacks variety, though. But you can bet when you try to get American food outside of North America, you're far more likely to find an overcooked burger with sweet relish on it than a steaming pile of crawdads. Eric From cisin at xenosoft.com Thu Nov 8 11:45:18 2001 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin (XenoSoft)) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:41 2005 Subject: head-positioners - (was Apple Floppy Drives (was: More Apple Pimpers)) In-Reply-To: <002301c1685a$6349a280$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> Message-ID: Micropolis was one of the only ones to use a helical lead screw positioner for a 5.25" floppy. VERY SLOW. They also made a 100TPI (not 96) drive. Starting with the MPI B51, most drives went to a split band positioner. In addition to the spiral groove positioner, the SA400 was 35 track, whereas all others that followed were 40 track. On Thu, 8 Nov 2001, Richard Erlacher wrote: > That spiral cam was an attempt to reduce price and mass, I suppose. Like the > stone wheel, I imagine it was better than SOME of the other options available at > the time, in one respect or another. > > I don't remember at all (go figure!) what options there were at the time, short > of the lead-screw that was used on 8" drives, for moving the heads. I've got a > few pictures of Siemens mini-drives (5-1/4") that use lead screws, but I don't > remember other vendors using them. Did Shugart make a minifloppy with a lead > screw? The old BASF drives that I've cussed from time to time for their > fragility at the door latch used that spiral cam arrangement. It was > interesting, and, if you worked at it, you could foul it up, since it was > readily accessible. Every other scheme I remember from that period used a > tendon drive, as did the DS 8" drives, other than Siemens'. > What do you remember? More than I care to. From mythtech at Mac.com Thu Nov 8 11:48:07 2001 From: mythtech at Mac.com (Chris) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:41 2005 Subject: 8 inch floppy drives Message-ID: >You can get PAL to work on NTSC, but I don't think you can do it in reverse >since the PAL chips don't have the bandwidth for the extra resolution. You >could get an NTSC console and if you play around a lot with the vertical >hold on the TV's and such you can stablize it and use it on a PAL tv and use >all NTSC carts. You can also buy an NTSC to PAL converter CHEAP (as low as about $40 US). Going the other way is more expensive however (PAL to NTSC usually runs about $200). Or you can use a computer's video capture card and defeat macrovision while you are at it (That is how I use my PAL VCR... I play it thru my Mac's TV Tuner card which can read PAL... and when I want to copy tapes to NTSC, I just sync it to the video output, which feeds NTSC, and creates a new sync pulse, thus defeating macrovision... oh wait, by saying this I am in violation of the DMCA... shucks!) -chris From allain at panix.com Thu Nov 8 12:01:21 2001 From: allain at panix.com (John Allain) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:41 2005 Subject: hard-sector 5 1/4 disk References: <004d01c16863$fd55e380$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> Message-ID: <019c01c1687f$60272d00$8a0101ac@ibm23xhr06> RickE said: > Unlike you, Sellam, some folks actually did useful work ... I > knew what kinds of cars and houses their work provided them > back then I think Richard should close certain letters with a 'sniff' to emphasize when he intends to snub or not. Personally, I now have my dream car, but I often think of how it could be better if I took all my luxury money and gave it away to charity, as many do. John A. From mythtech at Mac.com Thu Nov 8 12:12:31 2001 From: mythtech at Mac.com (Chris) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:41 2005 Subject: Apple Floppy Drives (was: More Apple Pimpers) Message-ID: >I never had problems as you describe, nor have I ever heard of anyone >needing to adjust the alignment of an Apple disk drive. > >As far as I know, there is no procedure in the Disk ][ manual for aligning >a drive, and as far as I know, there is no reason for needing one. I don't know if it was alignment (I think it was speed), but I had a program that you would run, and you would adjust the drive via a small pot IIRC until the program said it was correct (again, I think it was speed). I DO know that as my Drive ][ drives got older, I found I had to do this operation more and more to keep them functioning (when it needed adjustment, it would just fail to read a disk). I also used the Drive ][ primairly stacked next to my Apple ][+, with the monitor on top, or on a shelf just above (when I moved to a color TV with line in as a monitor, as it was just too heavy to safely place on top of the Apple). I never had problems (other than speed issues, or once a game wrote high scores to the disk despite being write protected). My company had a number of Apple II+'s with drive II's stacked on the Apple with the monitor on top of the drives, and non ever had a problem. I used an Apple IIe with a dual drive box that sat on top of the Apple, and the monitor (IIRC, greenscreen Apple branded) sat on top of the drives. Never had a problem with that setup. (and the previous owner only ever used it that way for years, and had no problems). And I am probably a good test of real world abuse to the Apple Drive ][ drives, as I was just a wee child, and I didn't follow any rules that I probably should have. (I always put the disk in the drive, closed it, and turned on the computer... I would pull disks out, and replace them while the drive was reading or writing, I would power off the computer or reset it during read/write, I didn't use dust sleaves, I touched the disk media directly, wrote with ball point pens on the disk labels AFTER putting them on the disk, I used cheap no name brand bulk disks of any kind, and used a hole punch to make them double sided... and at one point, even stapled a peice of paper to a disk... and that staple is the ONLY time I can think of that I screwed up a disk... two holes and a long dent will do that. So I would have to say, the Apple II disk system was pretty freakin' stable and reliable to put up with all my abuse) -chris From mythtech at Mac.com Thu Nov 8 12:31:44 2001 From: mythtech at Mac.com (Chris) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:41 2005 Subject: Zenith Data Systems Z-386 SX/20 Free in NJ Message-ID: >> I can't figure out how to change the setup, so it is useless to me (if I >> can't at least get it to accept a 3.5" drive, I can't use it). > >Umm, why? Why can't I figure out how to change the settings? I don't know, it doesn't seem to respond to "standard" key combos to get into a setup menu, so I am figuring it doesn't have one. There are a million and one unnamed jumpers on the MB, so I don't know if it is one of those, it doesn't seem to keep settings done thru gsetup (the program I used for my old IBM ATs and clones). I don't have a manual for it, and a quick look online turned up no info (I didn't spend a huge amount of time looking, as the system isn't very valuable to me). Why can't I use it unless it has a 3.5" drive? Because the only place a 386 is of any use to me right now, is to work as an interviewing station for a particular software package. But the application runs off a 3.5" DD disk. So if I can't get it to work with a 3.5, I can't use it (and currently, it doesn't seem to accept the DD disks in the 3.5 drive when swapped for the DD 5.25 drive, which I though a little odd, as in my past experience, I have usually gotten computers to recognize a drive and use its lowest supported disk format without messing with BIOS settings, the exception being systems that just didn't support a 3.5 at all, but since this has cutouts for 2 3.5" drives, I have to assume it should work with them.) As a result, this machine's HD, RAM, CGA card, screws, jumpers, and dust plates are of more value to me than the working unit (I normally would want the PS, but it isn't a standard AT connector, so I will just strip the fan from it). Since it IS a fully working, useable 386, I offered it here first, but no one seems to want it, so I am going to strip it next chance I get (probably later today, or tomorrow, I need the bench space back that it is chewing up). -chris From cisin at xenosoft.com Thu Nov 8 12:36:52 2001 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin (XenoSoft)) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:41 2005 Subject: Apple Floppy Drives (was: More Apple Pimpers) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Here's what you need to do to get reliable results from Apple drives: > And I am probably a good test of real world abuse to the Apple Drive ][ > drives, as I was just a wee child, and I didn't follow any rules that I > probably should have. (I always put the disk in the drive, closed it, and > turned on the computer... I would pull disks out, and replace them while > the drive was reading or writing, I would power off the computer or reset > it during read/write, I didn't use dust sleaves, I touched the disk media > directly, wrote with ball point pens on the disk labels AFTER putting > them on the disk, I used cheap no name brand bulk disks of any kind, and > used a hole punch to make them double sided... and at one point, even > stapled a peice of paper to a disk... and that staple is the ONLY time I > can think of that I screwed up a disk... two holes and a long dent will > do that. So I would have to say, the Apple II disk system was pretty > freakin' stable and reliable to put up with all my abuse) From vance at ikickass.org Thu Nov 8 12:54:18 2001 From: vance at ikickass.org (One Without Reason) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:41 2005 Subject: DECSystem 5900 (fwd) In-Reply-To: <20011108104850.E4492598@uiuc.edu> Message-ID: A rackmount DECsystem 5000/240. A MIPS R3000 40MHz DEC PMAX. Peace... Sridhar On Thu, 8 Nov 2001, Dan Wright wrote: > What is it? it sounds interesting... > > Iggy Drougge said: > > Got this on another list. You could run ULTRIX on it. I could supply a CD > > image if necessary. > > > From: "Erik Bennett" > > To: port-pmax@netbsd.org > > Subject: DECSystem 5900 > > Date: 7 Nov 2001 03:16:50 GMT > > > > I've got a DECSystem 5900 that's needing a home. It's got 2 of the > > 32MB memory modules. It's the slower chip, but I can't recall the MHz. > > > > I got it at an auction when buying a rack and was surprised to find it > > in there. > > > > It *seemed* to power up OK (20 amp 120VAC power suppy included). > > > > I was going to load BSD on it, but I can't see how I'm going to get to > > it in this lifetime. It looks like it's got a couple of WREN drives > > in it, but I can't be sure. > > > > Let me know if anyone's interested. It'd be a crime to see a machine > > this heavy go to waste. > > > > > > -Erik > > > > Erik Bennett bennett@corp.or.com > > > > - Dan Wright > (dtwright@uiuc.edu) > (http://www.uiuc.edu/~dtwright) > > -] ------------------------------ [-] -------------------------------- [- > ``Weave a circle round him thrice, / And close your eyes with holy dread, > For he on honeydew hath fed, / and drunk the milk of Paradise.'' > Samuel Taylor Coleridge, Kubla Khan > From vance at ikickass.org Thu Nov 8 12:57:21 2001 From: vance at ikickass.org (One Without Reason) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:41 2005 Subject: hard-sector 5 1/4 disk In-Reply-To: <019c01c1687f$60272d00$8a0101ac@ibm23xhr06> Message-ID: I don't think I'll ever get my dream car. A Bugatti EB16/4. Peace... Sridhar On Thu, 8 Nov 2001, John Allain wrote: > Personally, I now have my dream car, but I often think of how > it could be better if I took all my luxury money and gave it away > to charity, as many do. > > John A. > > From mythtech at Mac.com Thu Nov 8 13:18:29 2001 From: mythtech at Mac.com (Chris) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:41 2005 Subject: food Message-ID: >I've lived in the US for my entire life and have never >been subjected to marshmallow butter You've never had Fluff? Fluff is great, have it with peanut butter (Fullernutter), have it with bananas, have it on ice cream, have it with graham crackers and honey, or with graham crackers and chocolate for non heated smores. You can have Fluff with all sorts of stuff. Turns any food into instant junk food! Of course, I am the guy the puts powdered sugar on french fries, so maybe my opinions should be ignored (it was an accidental find, the wind picked up at the shore and my wife's funnel cake landed on my plate of french fries). I also dip milky way bars into whoopie pie filling (powdered surgar and crisco), and sit twitching from the massive sugar rush... humm.. maybe it isn't US food is bizarre, maybe it is just some US residents eat bizarre stuff. -chris From vze2wsvr at verizon.net Thu Nov 8 13:21:23 2001 From: vze2wsvr at verizon.net (Eric Chomko) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:41 2005 Subject: Apple Floppy Drives (was: More Apple Pimpers) References: <000401c167d6$afdad120$6b7b7b7b@ajp> Message-ID: <3BEADB33.606B0FFF@verizon.net> Allison wrote: > From: Eric Chomko > >> 1- Drives (SA400 was pure garbage!!!) > > > >Whoa! I bought my Smoke Signal Broadcasting disk system back in 1978 > >with two SA400 drives. I added a third drive in the late 80s. To this day > > > > I also have my three for the NS*, the first was from 1977. However as > someone > in the industry I did get to see how often the general lot of them failed > and why. > They were not great drives. I ahve mine working because it treated them > very > well and retired them by late 1981 for lack of space. > > >my 2 cents... > >> meaning it would write trash due to no write locks. > >> 5- not enough space > > > >Considering the alternative to #5 was cassette or paper tape, we lived with > it! > > No the alternative was 8" drives at 250k or more. > Not all systems used 8" drives. The one I remember was the Helios drive by Processor Tech. The shop I worked in sold a lot of Sol-20s and they preferred to use the 5.25" 77 track Mircopolis drive due to their better reliability. > > >> space poor at 90k per drive (#5). > >> > > > >My SSB system was SS/SD soft-sector and had a whopping 80KB storage > >capacity per diskette. Didn't TRS-80, Apple II, Northstar and others ALL > have > >a different scheme (i.e. more capacity, hard-sectoring, double > sided/density)? > > The scheme with hard sector VS soft was not an issue here. It was tiny > and if you did software development 90k was cramped. > > >My point is that, maybe they were trying to do to much with the little ole > >SA400 than the thinhs was designed to do? > > No, it was just weak. It was slow at 40ms step (30 if you pushed it), the > motor bearing tended to wear and a host of other problems. I may add that > when Shugart sold the floppy business the quality went to pot. Were SA800s that much better? > > > >> CCS used 8" disks and reliable controller. It was however prone to #4. > >> Many S100 system that used 8" drives and the better 5.25 drives fell > >> in this realm of reliability though most with 5.25 were pretty cramped > >> until 360k(DD) or 720->780k(QD aka two sided DD) formats were common. > >> > >By then CP/M and S-100 was dying. > > And SS50 was long gone... the point being? Actually S100 was lingering > after about 1982 and CP/M was still gathering steam up to 1984-5 with BBS > systems and modems. The PC only started with 180k then 360k.. ignoring the > OS and platform the PC only continued the progression with regard to > floppies > and their problems. > By by then the 35 track SA400 had given way to the 40 track Tandon 100. I am not sure which systems used which in between the early 8080/6800 systems and the PC (i.e. Apple and TRS-80, etc.) > > >Mini computers had their fare share of disk problems too. The Interdata > 7/16 > >systems I worked on in the mid-70s were slated to be outfitted with > >floppy drives. They could never make them work. It was either hard disks > >(20 MB system, w/10MB fixed and 10MB removable), or good ole paper > >tape and TTYs. > > The mid 70s was really the start for 8" floppies! There was a learning > curve for > the technology as a whole. > Yes, even the 5.25" floppies as well :) > > >> Of all, my opinion is that floppies were ok but the first real > improvement > >> was the 3.5" drives(720k and 1.44m generation) with the power fail logic > >> on board. They offered good storage, small size, lower power, good > >> reliability and quieter than the whole lot. > >> > > > >And the fact that the 1.44MB floppy is STILL a standard device on many > >systems to this very day. > > Yes, and? We know that. It is becuase it works, was cheap and proved > usable in size and durability. I'd also describe that as summa nulla. It's > the > best of the floppies and software and files now barely fit on CDrom... or > CDrw > the new "floppy" replacement. > > Don't rave at me. I though apple and many other machine to be valid and > made a statement then. I also have the luxury of seeing what worked, > failed, > got forgotten and deserves to be forgotten in the epoch post MITS. > I'm not raving. I was actually agreeing with you at the end about the 1.44 mb floppy. I just took exception to your comments about the SA400., but you're entitled to your opinion. It is just that I never noticed a huge difference in reliability between 8" and 5.25" floppy drives. 8" drives became obsolete with the advent of affordable hard drives. But the 5.25" floppies hung on. Obviously, the 5.25" technology became reliable enough that couple with a hard disk, the need for 8" drives disappeared. Eric > > Allison From jhellige at earthlink.net Thu Nov 8 12:31:37 2001 From: jhellige at earthlink.net (Jeff Hellige) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:41 2005 Subject: hard-sector 5 1/4 disk In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <01Nov8.144205est.119043@gateway.mediacen.navy.mil> >I don't think I'll ever get my dream car. A Bugatti EB16/4. Nice choice...I'll likely never aquire mine either since all surviving examples are still owned by the manufacturer...1955 Mercedes 300SLR. BTW, a bit more on-topic...I had to provide phone support for rather an odd setup today. Years ago someone wanted to connect a Laserwriter printer to an ethernet connection. The connection from the Mac then went like this: Mac -> Asante SCSI to ethernet adapter -> Farallon Etherwave ethernet to Localtalk adapter -> Laserwriter This worked fine for the last 6 years and then the other day their IT guys, who don't know anything about Mac's, came in and plugged a LAN drop up to the ethernet connector on the mainboard. This worked great for connecting to their LAN but caused the Laserwriter, which is the only thing on the little adapter chain, to disappear. In the end, moving the LAN drop from the onboard ethernet port to the 2nd port on the Etherwave solved all the problems and allowed all the connections to function. Now if I had been there physically, I likely would have removed the adapter chain and connected the Laserwriter to the Mac directly with the Localtalk ports but I wasn't going to try and walk someone through a reconfigure like that over the phone. She was just happy to be able to print again. Jeff -- Home of the TRS-80 Model 2000 FAQ File http://www.cchaven.com http://www.geocities.com/siliconvalley/lakes/6757 From donm at cts.com Thu Nov 8 13:31:42 2001 From: donm at cts.com (Don Maslin) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:41 2005 Subject: head-positioners - (was Apple Floppy Drives (was: More Apple Pimpers)) In-Reply-To: <002301c1685a$6349a280$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> Message-ID: On Thu, 8 Nov 2001, Richard Erlacher wrote: > That spiral cam was an attempt to reduce price and mass, I suppose. Like the > stone wheel, I imagine it was better than SOME of the other options available at > the time, in one respect or another. > > I don't remember at all (go figure!) what options there were at the time, short > of the lead-screw that was used on 8" drives, for moving the heads. I've got a > few pictures of Siemens mini-drives (5-1/4") that use lead screws, but I don't > remember other vendors using them. Did Shugart make a minifloppy with a lead > screw? The old BASF drives that I've cussed from time to time for their > fragility at the door latch used that spiral cam arrangement. It was > interesting, and, if you worked at it, you could foul it up, since it was > readily accessible. Every other scheme I remember from that period used a > tendon drive, as did the DS 8" drives, other than Siemens'. What do you > remember? > > Dick > Aside from the abortive spiral cam, about all that I recall in the full height 5.25" drives was the `capstan/split-band' scheme used by Tandon and many others then and later. Lead-screw types became more common in the half height drives, I believe, and some survive even today in the 3.5" half height drives. - don ________O/_______ O\ From vze2wsvr at verizon.net Thu Nov 8 13:30:57 2001 From: vze2wsvr at verizon.net (Eric Chomko) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:41 2005 Subject: Apple Floppy Drives (was: More Apple Pimpers) References: Message-ID: <3BEADD71.4484466D@verizon.net> Don Maslin wrote: > On Wed, 7 Nov 2001, Eric Chomko wrote: > > > Allison wrote: > > > > > General comment, > > > > > > Most 8" systems were expected be and behaved reliably and have > > > at least 250k of space. > > > > > > Most 5.25" systems could be reliable but, often weren't. I'll restrict > > > comments to 5.25" for the later reason. > > > > > > Most of the complaints I've had with disk systems be they Apple or not > > > were often in this order. > > > > > > 1- Drives (SA400 was pure garbage!!!) > > > > Whoa! I bought my Smoke Signal Broadcasting disk system back in 1978 > > with two SA400 drives. I added a third drive in the late 80s. To this day > > all three drives work great. I did switch drives 0 and 2 to allow the most > > used drive to get less use and the newest drive to become the main drive. > > But, I'd hardly call a disk drive "pure garbage" that has lasted for 12 and > > 23 years! And that is in lieu of the fact that they had a 5 year life > > expectency. > > > > my 2 cents... > > And worth every penny of it :) But the fact is, that despite your > fortunate experience, the spiral cam head positioner was probably the > worst idea since the stone wheel! > - don > Good point! But doesn't that make it interesting now in 2001? I mean the slide rule compared to the electronic caluclator makes the slide rule seem like a lousy design. Aren't slide rules interesting today. Did an alternative exist, in 1974, to the spiral cam head positioner? Eric From uban at ubanproductions.com Thu Nov 8 13:32:06 2001 From: uban at ubanproductions.com (Tom Uban) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:41 2005 Subject: looking for DEC4015 ICs In-Reply-To: <3.0.5.32.20011108110839.00926100@ubanproductions.com> References: <20011108003953.Y92508-100000@lepton.subatomix.com> <3.0.5.32.20011107165839.008fbaa0@ubanproductions.com> Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.20011108133206.0094b570@ubanproductions.com> I am looking for some DEC4015 ICs. It is a 16 pin quad D FLOP with individual presets, single outputs, and a common clear. Here is the pinout: 1 D2 Vcc 16 2 D3 D1 15 3 !CLR D0 14 4 !Set3 CLK 13 5 !Set2 !Set0 12 6 Q3 !Set1 11 7 Q2 Q0 10 8 Gnd Q1 9 Anyone have a couple to spare? --tnx --tom From mrbill at mrbill.net Thu Nov 8 13:46:18 2001 From: mrbill at mrbill.net (Bill Bradford) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:41 2005 Subject: [AGarvin@tribalddb.com: Sun stuff] Message-ID: <20011108134617.E12192@mrbill.net> Lots of old free Sun software in Dallas.. Please mail him directly. Bill ----- Forwarded message from Allen Garvin ----- From: "Allen Garvin" To: "'mrbill@sunhelp.org'" Subject: Sun stuff Date: Thu, 8 Nov 2001 14:35:47 -0500 Hello! I've found your site quite useful for the past few years. I was wondering: You wouldn't be interested in taking a gazillion pieces of old Sun software off my hands? A whole closet full of really interesting stuff, which includes nearly every piece of programming software sun put out between 87 and 93, along with manuals? Such jewels as Sun ADA, Fortran, Pascal, C, C++, GWBasic (really!), Lisp, modula-2, and others, along with libraries, all with full documentation. They take up way too much space in my apartment, and I'm just not that interested any more in running antique software and hardware, but I'd like someone who's interested in Sun stuff to have it. Or, do you know anyone else that would like it? I'll give it all away for free, to anyone who can drive to my apartment up in Dallas and pick it up. Allen Garvin UNIX Administrator Tribal DDB Dallas 214-259-2767 agarvin@tribalddb.com ----- End forwarded message ----- -- Bill Bradford mrbill@mrbill.net Austin, TX From donm at cts.com Thu Nov 8 13:47:03 2001 From: donm at cts.com (Don Maslin) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:41 2005 Subject: hard-sector 5 1/4 disk In-Reply-To: <200111081532.RAA06819@ccii.co.za> Message-ID: On Thu, 8 Nov 2001, Wouter de Waal wrote: > Hi again > > I for one ran an Apple ][ (clone) with two floppies and a monitor > on top of the box, for a long long time, and the only problems > I had was when the one-shots in the drive (how's that for a (belated) > thread merge? :-) drifted so far that disks from one drive wouldn't > read on the other. > > And yes, I still have the system, and it still reads the disks. > > I owe Tony an apology: > > >Why suspect the FDC? This soulds like nothing more than a shorted or > >leaky keyswitch. Have yoy taken the keyboard apart to check for this yet. > > I found the correct pins for "Enter" and the floppy tries to > read the disk... I made a disk on the peecee but I since found out > that peecees can't make SD disks... time to go find an old XT > disk controller (I have a few :-) and gippo it to read and write > SD. > > Seeya > > Wouter in digest mode > You might also look for and try the FDCs that use the 37C65 chip by WD and others. Also the NS8473 cards. - don From vze2wsvr at verizon.net Thu Nov 8 13:45:30 2001 From: vze2wsvr at verizon.net (Eric Chomko) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:41 2005 Subject: OT - Re: food References: <1334.712T1050T5194395optimus@canit.se> Message-ID: <3BEAE0DA.4EC506A6@verizon.net> Iggy Drougge wrote: > Chad Fernandez skrev: > > >Richard Erlacher wrote: > >> Americans have always been somewhat "strange" about their diet, > > >How? I've never seen anything that I thought was strange. We don't eat > >anything that is still alive, or wiggles, or whatever. Our food is > >pretty basic, with the exception maybe of some fancy stuff.... but a lot > >of that is foreign influence. > > I find it somewhat interesting how Americans define "foreign". Doesn't that > require something "indigenous"? =) Ha! We are accused of being "typical" or "ugly". Those comments make us indigenous. (And they say that WE have double standards!) > > I can't say that I know much about American cousine, save for hamburgers, but > there is a shop in Stockholm which specialises in American food, and I must > say that the general impression I've got is that it's absolutely deranged. > But guess what? I can go to any large city and even smaller ones and get: Chinese, Korean, Thai, Indian, Mexican, Greek, Italian, Jewish, African (and others) food. In fact, all those and more are all within an hour of my house, with many choices of many. What I lack is good German food nearby, but that is another story. Can you get that variety where you live? > Two examples: Mustard and mayonnaise mixed into one bottle. Smoke essence, > added to food in order to get a "grilled" quality. > And everything is very colourful. > Oh, and then there's that marshmallow butter, which I think you're supposed to > have on your sandwich. Makes Nutella seem like a wholesome product. =) > Sounds like Japanese (oops, forgot to add that to my list above) steak house food. IOW, authenitic Japanese food is not steak house food, its an American-influenced version of Japanese food. Authentic Japanese food is sushi, sashimi, sukiaki, etc. It sounds like what they are passing off as "American food" is a euphemism for "weird food". Eric > > -- > En ligne avec Thor 2.6a. > > BSD: A psychoactive drug, popular in the 80s, probably developed at UC > Berkeley or thereabouts. Similar in many ways to the prescription-only > medication called "System V", but infinitely more useful. (Or, at least, more > fun.) The full chemical name is "Berkeley Standard Distribution". From DAW at yalepress3.unipress.yale.edu Thu Nov 8 14:01:18 2001 From: DAW at yalepress3.unipress.yale.edu (David Woyciesjes) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:41 2005 Subject: OT: food Message-ID: <9011A52E011ED311B4280004AC1BA61501467263@yalepress3.unipress.yale.edu> ! ... Of course, I am the guy the puts ! powdered sugar on french fries,... Powdered suger on french fries? Sounds... wierd... but tasty. I'll have to try it. Well, you _can_ go to a carnival and get fried dough with powdered sugar on it, so I guess it's not that much of a stretch... But I have to admit, McDonalds french fries in thier choclate shake is pretty good too. --- David A Woyciesjes --- C & IS Support Specialist --- Yale University Press --- mailto:david.woyciesjes@yale.edu --- (203) 432-0953 --- ICQ # - 905818 From donm at cts.com Thu Nov 8 13:57:29 2001 From: donm at cts.com (Don Maslin) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:41 2005 Subject: head-positioners - (was Apple Floppy Drives (was: More Apple Pimpers)) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Thu, 8 Nov 2001, Fred Cisin (XenoSoft) wrote: > Micropolis was one of the only ones to use a helical lead screw positioner > for a 5.25" floppy. VERY SLOW. They also made a 100TPI (not 96) drive. Tandon also made a 100TPI drive. - don > Starting with the MPI B51, most drives went to a split band positioner. > In addition to the spiral groove positioner, the SA400 was 35 track, > whereas all others that followed were 40 track. > > > On Thu, 8 Nov 2001, Richard Erlacher wrote: > > > That spiral cam was an attempt to reduce price and mass, I suppose. Like the > > stone wheel, I imagine it was better than SOME of the other options available at > > the time, in one respect or another. > > > > I don't remember at all (go figure!) what options there were at the time, short > > of the lead-screw that was used on 8" drives, for moving the heads. I've got a > > few pictures of Siemens mini-drives (5-1/4") that use lead screws, but I don't > > remember other vendors using them. Did Shugart make a minifloppy with a lead > > screw? The old BASF drives that I've cussed from time to time for their > > fragility at the door latch used that spiral cam arrangement. It was > > interesting, and, if you worked at it, you could foul it up, since it was > > readily accessible. Every other scheme I remember from that period used a > > tendon drive, as did the DS 8" drives, other than Siemens'. > > > What do you remember? > More than I care to. > > From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Nov 8 13:32:49 2001 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:42 2005 Subject: Apple Floppy Drives (was: More Apple Pimpers) In-Reply-To: from "Sellam Ismail" at Nov 8, 1 04:21:36 am Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1148 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20011108/f64c08d6/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Nov 8 13:00:11 2001 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:42 2005 Subject: KM11 and RK11-D In-Reply-To: <20011108003953.Y92508-100000@lepton.subatomix.com> from "Jeffrey S. Sharp" at Nov 8, 1 00:41:19 am Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1383 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20011108/0385b63c/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Nov 8 13:55:18 2001 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:42 2005 Subject: KM11 and RK11-D In-Reply-To: <3.0.5.32.20011108110839.00926100@ubanproductions.com> from "Tom Uban" at Nov 8, 1 11:08:39 am Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 611 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20011108/720c2d08/attachment.ksh From mikeford at socal.rr.com Thu Nov 8 12:51:07 2001 From: mikeford at socal.rr.com (Mike Ford) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:42 2005 Subject: food In-Reply-To: <3.0.2.32.20011108082233.0103ff04@obregon.multi.net.co> References: <1334.712T1050T5194395optimus@canit.se> <3BE76EE1.D6F3898D@internet1.net> Message-ID: >Not all "moles" have chocolate in them. Poblano (the one you're >probably talking about) does, as does mole negro and mole oaxaquen~o. >But mole verde or mole amarillo don't have chocolate. You can >try to search for some old posts that I wrote in rec.food.recipes, >rec.food.cooking and alt.food.mexican on these and other mexican >delicacies including a whole head of beef, very slowly cooked >in a hole in the ground ("barbacoa de pozo"). Yum!. :-) . Something about the taste of the Poblano chili I really like, especially the chipolito stuff. Lately a couple places in the Sunday buffet have had Mexican style hot chocolate and coffee and thats hooks more than a few people. If I "buryque" something, its going to be a goat. What is better than a goat taco? From mikeford at socal.rr.com Thu Nov 8 13:51:52 2001 From: mikeford at socal.rr.com (Mike Ford) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:42 2005 Subject: food In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: >Well, the people here in New York, the people where my parents live in >Phoenix, and where my parents' best friends live in Orlando, people >basically talk about the same stuff when they're talking about American >food. Basically diner food. Different foods have there times, around the 60s it was "chili bowl" joints, 70s salad bars, 80s hamburger chains (that failed to go away). Whats an orthodox diner meal, lettuce salad, meat and potatoes with gravy, some kind of veggie, and a slice of pie. How about a guess on the top ten favorite foods in USA (by meals eaten)? hamburger pizza fried chicken spagetti meat and potatoes steak chinese ? apparently fluff From mikeford at socal.rr.com Thu Nov 8 13:32:13 2001 From: mikeford at socal.rr.com (Mike Ford) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:42 2005 Subject: Apple Floppy Drives (was: More Apple Pimpers) In-Reply-To: <102.ba14cad.291bf11a@aol.com> Message-ID: Heck, I remember taking disks out while the disk access light was on! Perhaps I was luckier than I do seem to recall in the very early days that some brands of floppy had bad batches, but if you stuck with Dysan or Elephant, anything you could originally format, remained good. Anybody out there collecting all the types and brands of floppy media? From mikeford at socal.rr.com Thu Nov 8 13:28:43 2001 From: mikeford at socal.rr.com (Mike Ford) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:42 2005 Subject: food In-Reply-To: <004701c16860$f09796a0$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> References: Message-ID: >In some respects it's about getting people to "try" something they aren't >accustomed to eating, just like when I was trying to train my kids. It's >really I gotta say though this GREEN ketchup Heinz is pushing along with the Shrek Video really barfs me out. From pete at dunnington.u-net.com Thu Nov 8 14:10:55 2001 From: pete at dunnington.u-net.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:42 2005 Subject: 8 inch floppy drives In-Reply-To: "Curt Vendel" "Re: 8 inch floppy drives" (Sep 8, 7:55) References: <355.712T1600T6005125optimus@canit.se> <003601c1385d$19e81a40$cab1ff0a@cvendel> Message-ID: <10111082010.ZM5021@mindy.dunnington.u-net.com> On Sep 8, 7:55, Curt Vendel wrote: > You can get PAL to work on NTSC, but I don't think you can do it in reverse > since the PAL chips don't have the bandwidth for the extra resolution. Eh? Normally PAL is the higher resolution, 625 vertical lines rather than 525, and 6.5MHz bandwidth rather than whatever NTSC normally uses (5.something, IIRC). -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager University of York From donm at cts.com Thu Nov 8 14:09:35 2001 From: donm at cts.com (Don Maslin) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:42 2005 Subject: Apple Floppy Drives (was: More Apple Pimpers) In-Reply-To: <3BEADD71.4484466D@verizon.net> Message-ID: On Thu, 8 Nov 2001, Eric Chomko wrote: > Don Maslin wrote: > > > On Wed, 7 Nov 2001, Eric Chomko wrote: > > > > > Allison wrote: > > > > > > > General comment, > > > > > > > > Most 8" systems were expected be and behaved reliably and have > > > > at least 250k of space. > > > > > > > > Most 5.25" systems could be reliable but, often weren't. I'll restrict > > > > comments to 5.25" for the later reason. > > > > > > > > Most of the complaints I've had with disk systems be they Apple or not > > > > were often in this order. > > > > > > > > 1- Drives (SA400 was pure garbage!!!) > > > > > > Whoa! I bought my Smoke Signal Broadcasting disk system back in 1978 > > > with two SA400 drives. I added a third drive in the late 80s. To this day > > > all three drives work great. I did switch drives 0 and 2 to allow the most > > > used drive to get less use and the newest drive to become the main drive. > > > But, I'd hardly call a disk drive "pure garbage" that has lasted for 12 and > > > 23 years! And that is in lieu of the fact that they had a 5 year life > > > expectency. > > > > > > my 2 cents... > > > > And worth every penny of it :) But the fact is, that despite your > > fortunate experience, the spiral cam head positioner was probably the > > worst idea since the stone wheel! > > - don > > > > Good point! But doesn't that make it interesting now in 2001? I mean the slide > rule > compared to the electronic caluclator makes the slide rule seem like a lousy design. > > Aren't slide rules interesting today. > > Did an alternative exist, in 1974, to the spiral cam head positioner? > > Eric > Certainly! Both the lead screw and the capstan/split-band positioners were available. - don From vze2wsvr at verizon.net Thu Nov 8 14:09:24 2001 From: vze2wsvr at verizon.net (Eric Chomko) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:42 2005 Subject: Cromemco landmarks References: <01C16820.C3913480@mse-d03> Message-ID: <3BEAE674.B1123313@verizon.net> The problem with Cromemco was that they were sort of in between the mini-market and the mirco-market, in both performance and price. I remember getting chewed out by my sales manager for telling a customer, at the store worked in, that Cromemco was the best mirco- computer. It was true at the time but we had no way of getting those systems in quantity. There was really no wholesale market for them or at least one that we could get into. He told me to push the SOL's which we had plenty of. Eric M H Stein wrote: > Speaking of Cromemco, did you know (according to their literature) that > aside from naming the S-100 bus, they also developed: > > -The first Z-80 micro > -The first multi-user micro > -The first Unix-like OS for a micro (Cromix) > -The first micro with a Winchester HD > -The first complete system with 16M/50MHD for <$50,000 > -The first micro color graphics system > -The first micro addressing memory >64K > -The first micro with IBM RJE communication > -The first intelligent micro I/O interfaces with a CPU on I/O card > -The first micro implementation of I/O channel processors > -The first micro to boot from ROM without front panel switches > -The first self-programming EPROM card > -The first micro with error-correcting memory > -The first graphics system with hardware stenciling (whatever that is) > -The first micro graphics system capable of sync'ing to a TV broadcast > -The first micro with integrated floppy disks > > And that in 1987 an XXU equipped system was almost twice as fast as a > VAX 11/780, which cost over four times as much as the largest Cromemco > system at the time. From mythtech at Mac.com Thu Nov 8 14:11:46 2001 From: mythtech at Mac.com (Chris) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:42 2005 Subject: hard-sector 5 1/4 disk Message-ID: >>I don't think I'll ever get my dream car. A Bugatti EB16/4. > > Nice choice...I'll likely never aquire mine either since all >surviving examples are still owned by the manufacturer...1955 >Mercedes 300SLR. Dream car?!? Right now I'll just settle for A car! -chris From mythtech at Mac.com Thu Nov 8 14:16:06 2001 From: mythtech at Mac.com (Chris) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:42 2005 Subject: hard-sector 5 1/4 disk Message-ID: > Mac -> Asante SCSI to ethernet adapter -> Farallon Etherwave >ethernet to Localtalk adapter -> Laserwriter >I likely would have removed the adapter chain and >connected the Laserwriter to the Mac directly with the Localtalk >ports but I wasn't going to try and walk someone through a >reconfigure like that over the phone. Yeah, I would have gone Mac to Ethernet (if the mac needed the ethernet), and LaserWriter to Mac via localtalk, run Apple's local talk bridge software, and the whole ethernet network (including the local mac) will see the laserwriter on the ethernet network. Much easier than ethernet to etherwave to localtalk. But you are right, if they didn't know to connect the LW directly to the mac in the first place, you probably would have had fun trying to walk them thru it over the phone. -chris From mythtech at Mac.com Thu Nov 8 14:16:31 2001 From: mythtech at Mac.com (Chris) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:42 2005 Subject: OT: food Message-ID: > But I have to admit, McDonalds french fries in thier choclate shake >is pretty good too. Never tried that, but I used to get a medium chocolate, and a medium stawberry, and drink them together (one straw from each to my mouth), that was always pretty good. I will have to dunk my fries the next time (and to think, I was just about to get Mc D's for lunch, but at the last minute pulled into the popeye's drive thru instead.) -chris From jhellige at earthlink.net Thu Nov 8 13:21:46 2001 From: jhellige at earthlink.net (Jeff Hellige) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:42 2005 Subject: Apple Floppy Drives (was: More Apple Pimpers) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <01Nov8.153218est.119259@gateway.mediacen.navy.mil> >I do seem to recall in the very early days that some brands of floppy had >bad batches, but if you stuck with Dysan or Elephant, anything you could >originally format, remained good. Elephant disks were great. I still have a bunch of them, formatted for various platforms, and have never had a problem with them. Jeff -- Home of the TRS-80 Model 2000 FAQ File http://www.cchaven.com http://www.geocities.com/siliconvalley/lakes/6757 From red at bears.org Thu Nov 8 14:20:44 2001 From: red at bears.org (r. 'bear' stricklin) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:42 2005 Subject: Zenith Data Systems Z-386 SX/20 Free in NJ In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Thu, 8 Nov 2001, Chris wrote: > >> I can't figure out how to change the setup, so it is useless to me (if I > >> can't at least get it to accept a 3.5" drive, I can't use it). > > > >Umm, why? > > online turned up no info (I didn't spend a huge amount of time looking, > as the system isn't very valuable to me). I don't know, my "quick search online" turned up the following information: Older ISA-based ZDS boxes: ctrl-alt-ins when blinking cursor appears in top left corner of screen. ( http://www.cr-il.com/cmos.htm ) For Z286, firmware setup accessed by rebooting with ctrl-alt-ins instead of ctrl-alt-del and typing "SETUP" at the prompt. ( www.ics.uci.edu/~archive/documentation/machines/zenith1.html ) It's even corroborated in the list archives at classiccmp.org. furrfu. ( http://www.classiccmp.org/mail-archive/classiccmp/1997-03/0464.html ) There is information in Google Groups on how to defeat the password protection on the CMOS, too, if you should find yourself in that situation. The internet is a big place. Don't give up so easily. Most often if you don't find results, your search terms need refining. ok r. From Robert_Feldman at jdedwards.com Thu Nov 8 14:15:38 2001 From: Robert_Feldman at jdedwards.com (Feldman, Robert) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:42 2005 Subject: OT: food Message-ID: I haven't tried one but I have heard that fried candy bars (e.g., Snickers) were a big hit at the Wisconsin State Fair. -----Original Message----- From: David Woyciesjes [mailto:DAW@yalepress3.unipress.yale.edu] Sent: Thursday, November 08, 2001 2:01 PM To: 'classiccmp@classiccmp.org' Cc: 'mythtech@Mac.com' Subject: RE: OT: food ! ... Of course, I am the guy the puts ! powdered sugar on french fries,... Powdered suger on french fries? Sounds... wierd... but tasty. I'll have to try it. Well, you _can_ go to a carnival and get fried dough with powdered sugar on it, so I guess it's not that much of a stretch... But I have to admit, McDonalds french fries in thier choclate shake is pretty good too. --- David A Woyciesjes --- C & IS Support Specialist --- Yale University Press --- mailto:david.woyciesjes@yale.edu --- (203) 432-0953 --- ICQ # - 905818 From vance at ikickass.org Thu Nov 8 14:40:31 2001 From: vance at ikickass.org (One Without Reason) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:42 2005 Subject: Apple Floppy Drives (was: More Apple Pimpers) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: > > Good point! But doesn't that make it interesting now in 2001? I mean the slide > > rule > > compared to the electronic caluclator makes the slide rule seem like a lousy design. > > > > Aren't slide rules interesting today. I can do a lot of things faster on a slide rule than an electronic calculator. Peace... Sridhar From vze2wsvr at verizon.net Thu Nov 8 14:48:34 2001 From: vze2wsvr at verizon.net (Eric Chomko) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:42 2005 Subject: head-positioners - (was Apple Floppy Drives (was: More ApplePimpers)) References: Message-ID: <3BEAEFA1.68EFD82@verizon.net> "Fred Cisin (XenoSoft)" wrote: > Micropolis was one of the only ones to use a helical lead screw positioner > for a 5.25" floppy. VERY SLOW. They also made a 100TPI (not 96) drive. Wasn't Micropolis' drive a 77 track thing? > > Starting with the MPI B51, most drives went to a split band positioner. > In addition to the spiral groove positioner, the SA400 was 35 track, > whereas all others that followed were 40 track. > I have both SA400 and MPI B51s. They are compatible. But this all begs the question of what systems had what drives in them? I know that most early systems used SA400s (35 track), and that the original IBM PC used Tandon 100s (40 tracks). But what of the others in between? I may have asked this already, but does anyone have a table or something similar? Eric From optimus at canit.se Thu Nov 8 12:10:58 2001 From: optimus at canit.se (Iggy Drougge) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:42 2005 Subject: DECSystem 5900 (fwd) In-Reply-To: <15338.47909.725008.251434@phaduka.neurotica.com> Message-ID: <367.712T2900T11506473optimus@canit.se> Dave McGuire skrev: >On November 8, Dan Wright wrote: >> What is it? it sounds interesting... > It's essentially a DECstation5000-240 in a rackmount box. And that's really nice. Most "pmax" systems are only 25 MHz, this one's clocked at 40. Oh, and it's availables in Oregon, USA. -- En ligne avec Thor 2.6a. "I'm all man underneath my skirt." Boy George From optimus at canit.se Thu Nov 8 12:07:52 2001 From: optimus at canit.se (Iggy Drougge) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:42 2005 Subject: DECSystem 5900 (fwd) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <307.712T2600T11475933optimus@canit.se> One Without Reason skrev: >You could run NetBSD just as easily as ULTRIX on it. Oh, how silly of me. I assumed it was one of the QBUS systems. -- En ligne avec Thor 2.6a. Haben Sie schon mal einen Wegweiser gesehen, der selbst den Weg geht, den er weist? --- Ludwig XV (K?nig von Frankreich, 1710-1774) From optimus at canit.se Thu Nov 8 12:29:08 2001 From: optimus at canit.se (Iggy Drougge) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:42 2005 Subject: 8 inch floppy drives In-Reply-To: <003601c1385d$19e81a40$cab1ff0a@cvendel> Message-ID: <769.712T400T11693533optimus@canit.se> Curt Vendel skrev: >You can get PAL to work on NTSC, but I don't think you can do it in reverse >since the PAL chips don't have the bandwidth for the extra resolution. You >could get an NTSC console and if you play around a lot with the vertical >hold on the TV's and such you can stablize it and use it on a PAL tv and use >all NTSC carts. The 2600 must be quite singular if it achieves higher resolutions in NTSC than PAL. After all, on a hardware level, PAL is more high-resoluting (650 lines as opposed to 525?), whereas NTSC has a higher refresh rate. -- En ligne avec Thor 2.6a. Systemmeddelande: Nu ?r klockan Front! (L?sa) n?sta kommentar --> tid Tiden just nu: L?rdag 20 oktober 2001 2:42 Din tid tar slut om 35 minuter. En natt p? Fabbes BBS From optimus at canit.se Thu Nov 8 12:54:26 2001 From: optimus at canit.se (Iggy Drougge) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:42 2005 Subject: Atari ST cartridge port In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <784.712T1300T11944493optimus@canit.se> Jeff Hellige skrev: >>Does anyone know where one might get a hold of 2 mm spaced (not 2,54 mm) >>card- edge connectors? The Atari ST cartridge port is using that spacing, >>which doesn't seem very popular. > There don't seem to be that many cartridges for it either. >The only one I have is a VT100 emulation cart. Well, I suppose it was mostly used for dongles, but it was also rather popular for peripherals, such as samplers, digitisers and ethernet boxes. -- En ligne avec Thor 2.6a. BSD: A psychoactive drug, popular in the 80s, probably developed at UC Berkeley or thereabouts. Similar in many ways to the prescription-only medication called "System V", but infinitely more useful. (Or, at least, more fun.) The full chemical name is "Berkeley Standard Distribution". From optimus at canit.se Thu Nov 8 13:46:17 2001 From: optimus at canit.se (Iggy Drougge) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:42 2005 Subject: Classic Gaming Collections In-Reply-To: <014f01c16727$257514a0$67701fd1@default> Message-ID: <895.712T850T12464487optimus@canit.se> John R. Keys Jr. skrev: >Glad I got everyone's attention but no one else seems to be listing what >gaming items they have which was the original question asked. Mine's was >a start not a complete listing as half of my collection is down in Texas >and it very hard get a count right now. I was down there last week but >ended up buying more items than I counted at the warehouses. NES, Master Systems 1 and 2, 2600, 2600 Jr, 2600 Jr clone, various PC5 pong consoles, Mega Drive, Mega Drive clone, Philips G7000, INTV 3. I think that's it. Oh, and I managed to destroy a SNES a few weeks ago. Stupid Nintendo, why couldn't they use normal screws? On the wish list: PC Engine, Amstrad GX4000 (has anyone got one of those?), Neo Geo -- En ligne avec Thor 2.6a. Idealismus ist die F?higkeit, die Menschen so zu sehen, wie sie sein k?nnten, wenn sie nicht so w?ren, wie sie sind. --- Curt Goetz From optimus at canit.se Thu Nov 8 14:01:14 2001 From: optimus at canit.se (Iggy Drougge) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:42 2005 Subject: Classic Gaming Collections In-Reply-To: <001d01c1672c$0845d220$88f8fea9@98box> Message-ID: <324.712T700T12614101optimus@canit.se> Lanny Cox skrev: >Game Gear, etc. My little brother tells me that the Game Gear is supposed to be rereleased at a low price in America. I really hope they'll do something about the old battery time, then. -- En ligne avec Thor 2.6a. "I may have invented Ctrl-Alt-Del, but Microsoft made it popular." --David Bradley From optimus at canit.se Thu Nov 8 14:19:22 2001 From: optimus at canit.se (Iggy Drougge) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:42 2005 Subject: Rubber Restorer... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <633.712T1100T12794713optimus@canit.se> Tony Duell skrev: >> I'd bet that Tony could figure out a way to make something lethal out of >> what they provided. >Difficult. Getting sufficient current at a few hundred volts is not going >to be really possible using only miniature audio transformers. If I'm >allowed other parts then it's trivial, but then I wouldn't need the kit >in the first place... "It's Tony-proof!" -- En ligne avec Thor 2.6a. Kimagure Orange Road inneh?ller v?ldigt mycket ton?rsromantik, extremt mycket ton?rsromantik faktiskt. Men det ?r samtidigt en av de st?rsta klassikerna inom shojo, kanske till och med den absolut st?rsta. - Animanga.nu From optimus at canit.se Thu Nov 8 14:22:09 2001 From: optimus at canit.se (Iggy Drougge) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:42 2005 Subject: Rubber Restorer... In-Reply-To: <20011107190555.81877.qmail@web20102.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <454.712T450T12824371optimus@canit.se> Ethan Dicks skrev: >I'm personally waiting for a major appliance (microwave, refrigerator, >etc.) to come with the warning "Do Not Lick". I in-fact want to get >a roll of 5-7cm round stickers with the "not" logo over a protruding >tongue (like the one on the cover of The Rolling Stones "Tattoo You"). >I expect them to end up in interesting places. Before I'm tempted to actually try licking the fridge, why shouldn't I? -- En ligne avec Thor 2.6a. From optimus at canit.se Thu Nov 8 14:34:59 2001 From: optimus at canit.se (Iggy Drougge) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:42 2005 Subject: Cable and connector source In-Reply-To: <007201c164a1$8e560980$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> Message-ID: <795.712T2950T12946187optimus@canit.se> Richard Erlacher skrev: >There are a couple of 6-pin connectors that look like the mini-DIN used by >the PS/2 mouse that won't fit. However, Radio Shack sells a PS/2-type of >connector in a blister pack for about $1.50. I used one when replacing the >power connector on a portable JAZ drive. Frankly, I was both pleased and >amazed that they had the things. I hate mini-DINs. They're OK for portable systems, but they don't belong on desktops or anything else. They're hellish to solder. And it gets even more stupid when they're used for AC adaptors. It's just a way to force the user into using only branded transformers. Especially if they're only using two pins on the mini-DIN. -- En ligne avec Thor 2.6a. Ky?suke: Jag heter Kurre, Kurre Carlsson! Jag: Det heter du inte alls! From gene at ureach.com Thu Nov 8 15:12:41 2001 From: gene at ureach.com (Eugene Simmons) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:42 2005 Subject: Sun stuff Message-ID: <200111082112.QAA06487@www23.ureach.com> Hello Agarvin@tribalddb.com I am interested in some of the sun equipment you have. Please email me a list of the stuff you want to get rid of -- to smmgene@netscape.net or gene@ureach.com From Robert_Feldman at jdedwards.com Thu Nov 8 15:05:33 2001 From: Robert_Feldman at jdedwards.com (Feldman, Robert) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:42 2005 Subject: Apple Floppy Drives (was: More Apple Pimpers) Message-ID: Especially if the batteries in the calculator are dead ;) (BTW, my 14-year old son has three slide rules and was quite interested in the giant one up on the wall in a hall at his high school.) -----Original Message----- From: One Without Reason [mailto:vance@ikickass.org] Sent: Thursday, November 08, 2001 2:41 PM To: Classic Computers Mailing List Subject: Re: Apple Floppy Drives (was: More Apple Pimpers) > > Good point! But doesn't that make it interesting now in 2001? I mean the slide > > rule > > compared to the electronic caluclator makes the slide rule seem like a lousy design. > > > > Aren't slide rules interesting today. I can do a lot of things faster on a slide rule than an electronic calculator. Peace... Sridhar From mcguire at neurotica.com Thu Nov 8 15:15:47 2001 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:42 2005 Subject: DECSystem 5900 (fwd) In-Reply-To: Re: DECSystem 5900 (fwd) (Iggy Drougge) References: <307.712T2600T11475933optimus@canit.se> Message-ID: <15338.62979.448115.854214@phaduka.neurotica.com> On November 8, Iggy Drougge wrote: > Oh, how silly of me. I assumed it was one of the QBUS systems. That'd be the 5400 and 5500 IIRC. -Dave -- Dave McGuire St. Petersburg, FL From edick at idcomm.com Thu Nov 8 15:22:49 2001 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:42 2005 Subject: head-positioners - (was Apple Floppy Drives (was: More Apple Pimpers)) References: Message-ID: <003601c1689b$84ec9000$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> Yes, and the Siemens drive with the lead screw looked VERY much like the Micopolis drive, IIRC. The split-band actuator (tendon drive) was eventually found to be the best tradeoff between cost, precision, reliability, and performance. I don't think I ever owned a minifloppy drive with a lead screw, but was quite surprised to find it in the Siemens tech manual. Dick ----- Original Message ----- From: "Fred Cisin (XenoSoft)" To: Sent: Thursday, November 08, 2001 10:45 AM Subject: Re:head-positioners - (was Apple Floppy Drives (was: More Apple Pimpers)) > Micropolis was one of the only ones to use a helical lead screw positioner > for a 5.25" floppy. VERY SLOW. They also made a 100TPI (not 96) drive. > Starting with the MPI B51, most drives went to a split band positioner. > In addition to the spiral groove positioner, the SA400 was 35 track, > whereas all others that followed were 40 track. > > > On Thu, 8 Nov 2001, Richard Erlacher wrote: > > > That spiral cam was an attempt to reduce price and mass, I suppose. Like the > > stone wheel, I imagine it was better than SOME of the other options available at > > the time, in one respect or another. > > > > I don't remember at all (go figure!) what options there were at the time, short > > of the lead-screw that was used on 8" drives, for moving the heads. I've got a > > few pictures of Siemens mini-drives (5-1/4") that use lead screws, but I don't > > remember other vendors using them. Did Shugart make a minifloppy with a lead > > screw? The old BASF drives that I've cussed from time to time for their > > fragility at the door latch used that spiral cam arrangement. It was > > interesting, and, if you worked at it, you could foul it up, since it was > > readily accessible. Every other scheme I remember from that period used a > > tendon drive, as did the DS 8" drives, other than Siemens'. > > > What do you remember? > More than I care to. > > From edick at idcomm.com Thu Nov 8 15:40:50 2001 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:42 2005 Subject: hard-sector 5 1/4 disk References: <004d01c16863$fd55e380$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> <019c01c1687f$60272d00$8a0101ac@ibm23xhr06> Message-ID: <003e01c1689e$08d9d6a0$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> My point was that Sellam wasn't old enough to be earning his living with the Apple ][ back in the very early '80's. I'm sure Sellam has played with his Apples enough to know a great deal about them by now, but the sorts of remarks he's made just don't line up with the magazine articles about those very issues that were published back in the '80's. People had problems with the Apple][ disk subsystem, but not terrible ones. However, it's stretching things a bit to suggest they were as dependable as the 8" units we used with CP/M boxes day in and day out. The guys on whose experience I've relied for guidance with respect to the issues surrounding use of the Apple][ did earn their living with the Apple, among other systems, and of those who were Apple "heavies" I listened more to the ones who were able to make the payments on late model German cars more that I listened to the guys who were still driving the '67 Chevy their Dad had given them when they graduated from high school. For me, a car isn't something I dream about. I just gave my Maxima to my son, who drives a lot more than I do, and I'm driving a Chevy that's old but has <50K miles on it in spite of its 14 years. Of course I only drive about 2500 miles a year since I live pretty close to everywhere I want to go. Dick ----- Original Message ----- From: "John Allain" To: Sent: Thursday, November 08, 2001 11:01 AM Subject: Re: hard-sector 5 1/4 disk > RickE said: > > Unlike you, Sellam, some folks actually did useful work ... I > > knew what kinds of cars and houses their work provided them > > back then > > I think Richard should close certain letters with a 'sniff' to > emphasize when he intends to snub or not. > > Personally, I now have my dream car, but I often think of how > it could be better if I took all my luxury money and gave it away > to charity, as many do. > > John A. > > > From zmerch at 30below.com Thu Nov 8 15:45:29 2001 From: zmerch at 30below.com (Roger Merchberger) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:42 2005 Subject: food In-Reply-To: <1334.712T1050T5194395optimus@canit.se> References: <3BE76EE1.D6F3898D@internet1.net> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20011108163804.00a04540@mail.30below.com> Rumor has it that Iggy Drougge may have mentioned these words: >I find it somewhat interesting how Americans define "foreign". Doesn't that >require something "indigenous"? =) Hmmm... not sure if I should be offended by this... Despite the last name of "Merchberger" a healthy portion of my heritage is descended from exactly those who were here before the europeans arrived... American Indians, aboriginals, "red man", however you want to put it - there's a great deal in America that's indigenous, and you'd be amazed with the variety & quality of food that's available at a decent-sized American Indian pow-wow. >I can't say that I know much about American cousine, save for hamburgers, but >there is a shop in Stockholm which specialises in American food, and I must >say that the general impression I've got is that it's absolutely deranged. Sounds just a deranged as what we Americans call "foreign" food, which at best is 1/2 Americanized -- at worst, it's not palatable. >Makes Nutella seem like a wholesome product. =) At the risk of sounding like Homer Simpson... Oooohh... Nutella... I've had it once, and that is some *fantastic* stuff... *Still* trying to get my uncle to send me some from Deutschland. I ask only rarely (because I forget to "pester" him) and he forgets to bring some back when he comes (he usually comes back to the states once or twice a year...). :-( Find a way to get me a jar or two, and I'll forgive that "indigenous" remark... From mythtech at Mac.com Thu Nov 8 15:45:41 2001 From: mythtech at Mac.com (Chris) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:42 2005 Subject: Zenith Data Systems Z-386 SX/20 Free in NJ Message-ID: >The internet is a big place. Don't give up so easily. Most often if you >don't find results, your search terms need refining. I didn't turn up anything useful on my first google search. I fully admit that I could have spent far more time looking, and probably would have found what I needed. But the machine is/was of next to no value to me, so it simply wasn't worth my time to look beyond my first search. (kind of the idea that when sheetrocking a wall, if you drop a screw, it is more cost efficient to get a new one from your pouch then to get off the scaffold and find the one you dropped... for me, it was more cost efficient to throw out the machine, then to take another 15 minutes searching for the info I needed. This would have been a totally different situation if it has been at least a 486, but 386 and less machines can only be used for one job for me now, and I have a stock pile of them already) However, someone else on this list sent me the key combo as well, so the machine has been salvaged (it was about 10 minutes away from being stripped, since there had been no one that wanted it, I was going to finish bundling some cables, then I was going to need my bench space back to work on more important equipment). I feel better saving it. I always feel guilty when I throw out an otherwise fully working machine simply because I have to watch the bottom line at work (if I wasn't on a tight time crunch to clear some office space, I would have put it to the side for a slow day when I could have taken more time to try and fix it... but that putting to the side of systems is what has burried me under parts that need to be fixed or evaluated, so right now, I have to stick to the mentality of fix it or throw it, so old systems are getting tossed right now if they cause me to have to spend more than about 10 minutes working on them) -chris From edick at idcomm.com Thu Nov 8 15:45:40 2001 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:42 2005 Subject: Apple Floppy Drives (was: More Apple Pimpers) References: Message-ID: <004401c1689e$b62230a0$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> Most of the problems that come along with the Apple][ disk subsystem can be avoided with a little care. For example, the problem I mentinoed about leaving the CRT turned off when I leave the computer sitting for a while can be avoided by opening the floppy drives when I do that. I imagine that if one's VERY careful and fastidious about keeping everything clean and orderly, which I'm not likely to do, some of the other problems can be avoided. Combine that with weekly cleaning and adjustment of the drives, and most of the problems will be gone. I'm not likely to do those things either, though, since the other systems I routinely use don't require it. Dick ----- Original Message ----- From: "Chris" To: "Classic Computer" Sent: Thursday, November 08, 2001 11:12 AM Subject: Re: Apple Floppy Drives (was: More Apple Pimpers) > >I never had problems as you describe, nor have I ever heard of anyone > >needing to adjust the alignment of an Apple disk drive. > > > >As far as I know, there is no procedure in the Disk ][ manual for aligning > >a drive, and as far as I know, there is no reason for needing one. > > I don't know if it was alignment (I think it was speed), but I had a > program that you would run, and you would adjust the drive via a small > pot IIRC until the program said it was correct (again, I think it was > speed). > > I DO know that as my Drive ][ drives got older, I found I had to do this > operation more and more to keep them functioning (when it needed > adjustment, it would just fail to read a disk). > > > I also used the Drive ][ primairly stacked next to my Apple ][+, with the > monitor on top, or on a shelf just above (when I moved to a color TV with > line in as a monitor, as it was just too heavy to safely place on top of > the Apple). I never had problems (other than speed issues, or once a game > wrote high scores to the disk despite being write protected). > > My company had a number of Apple II+'s with drive II's stacked on the > Apple with the monitor on top of the drives, and non ever had a problem. > > I used an Apple IIe with a dual drive box that sat on top of the Apple, > and the monitor (IIRC, greenscreen Apple branded) sat on top of the > drives. Never had a problem with that setup. (and the previous owner only > ever used it that way for years, and had no problems). > > And I am probably a good test of real world abuse to the Apple Drive ][ > drives, as I was just a wee child, and I didn't follow any rules that I > probably should have. (I always put the disk in the drive, closed it, and > turned on the computer... I would pull disks out, and replace them while > the drive was reading or writing, I would power off the computer or reset > it during read/write, I didn't use dust sleaves, I touched the disk media > directly, wrote with ball point pens on the disk labels AFTER putting > them on the disk, I used cheap no name brand bulk disks of any kind, and > used a hole punch to make them double sided... and at one point, even > stapled a peice of paper to a disk... and that staple is the ONLY time I > can think of that I screwed up a disk... two holes and a long dent will > do that. So I would have to say, the Apple II disk system was pretty > freakin' stable and reliable to put up with all my abuse) > > -chris > > > > From edick at idcomm.com Thu Nov 8 15:54:10 2001 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:42 2005 Subject: OT: food References: <9011A52E011ED311B4280004AC1BA61501467263@yalepress3.unipress.yale.edu> Message-ID: <006401c1689f$e705f2a0$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> McDonalds puts sugar in their french fries, I recently head on NPR. Apparently their sales increased slightly when they started doing that. It's consistent with their tendency to limit our diet to salt, fat, and sugar. In reality, I guess we do it to ourselves, since we don't have to eat there. The only meal I occasionally take at the Golden Arches, is breakfast, since they do, oddly enough, have pretty passable coffee. Dick ----- Original Message ----- From: "David Woyciesjes" To: Cc: Sent: Thursday, November 08, 2001 1:01 PM Subject: RE: OT: food > ! ... Of course, I am the guy the puts > ! powdered sugar on french fries,... > > Powdered suger on french fries? Sounds... wierd... but tasty. I'll > have to try it. Well, you _can_ go to a carnival and get fried dough with > powdered sugar on it, so I guess it's not that much of a stretch... > But I have to admit, McDonalds french fries in thier choclate shake > is pretty good too. > > --- David A Woyciesjes > --- C & IS Support Specialist > --- Yale University Press > --- mailto:david.woyciesjes@yale.edu > --- (203) 432-0953 > --- ICQ # - 905818 > > From mhstein at usa.net Thu Nov 8 15:57:29 2001 From: mhstein at usa.net (M H Stein) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:42 2005 Subject: Burroughs B80 Message-ID: <01C16876.9F87EEC0@mse-d03> Someone who has a B80 in a museum contacted me on this list a while ago about some materials I want to get rid of. Alas, I can't easily find that reply now, so would you please contact me again off-list. My apologies... m From mcguire at neurotica.com Thu Nov 8 16:00:55 2001 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:42 2005 Subject: food In-Reply-To: Re: food (Iggy Drougge) References: <3BE76EE1.D6F3898D@internet1.net> <1334.712T1050T5194395optimus@canit.se> Message-ID: <15339.151.434217.775949@phaduka.neurotica.com> On November 8, Iggy Drougge wrote: > Oh, and then there's that marshmallow butter, which I think you're supposed to > have on your sandwich. Makes Nutella seem like a wholesome product. =) Ahh, Nutella. Glorious stuff. And the word "wholesome". ..every time I hear it, it's always spoken in the same breath as either a conversation describing a completely un-arousable woman or some food with absolutely no flavor. ;) -Dave -- Dave McGuire St. Petersburg, FL From marvin at rain.org Thu Nov 8 16:04:08 2001 From: marvin at rain.org (Marvin Johnston) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:42 2005 Subject: Pre PDA computers Message-ID: <3BEB0158.E4E1DF3F@rain.org> A friend emailed me these two links to a posting on Revworld about some of the computers that predated the PDAs. Very interesting! http://revoworld.com/dbShowNews.asp?ID=702 http://revoworld.com/dbShowNews.asp?ID=703 From vance at ikickass.org Thu Nov 8 16:08:26 2001 From: vance at ikickass.org (One Without Reason) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:42 2005 Subject: DECSystem 5900 (fwd) In-Reply-To: <307.712T2600T11475933optimus@canit.se> Message-ID: On 8 Nov 2001, Iggy Drougge wrote: > >You could run NetBSD just as easily as ULTRIX on it. > > Oh, how silly of me. I assumed it was one of the QBUS systems. Those are the 5400 and 5500. Peace... Sridhar From vance at ikickass.org Thu Nov 8 16:13:13 2001 From: vance at ikickass.org (One Without Reason) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:42 2005 Subject: Classic Gaming Collections In-Reply-To: <324.712T700T12614101optimus@canit.se> Message-ID: On 8 Nov 2001, Iggy Drougge wrote: > Lanny Cox skrev: > > >Game Gear, etc. > > My little brother tells me that the Game Gear is supposed to be rereleased at > a low price in America. I really hope they'll do something about the old > battery time, then. I have a Nomad and a Game Gear (as well as a Triad and a ColecoVision). The Nomad is *sooo* much nicer. Plays Genesis cartridges, so there are games out the wazoo for it. Peace... Sridhar From mcguire at neurotica.com Thu Nov 8 16:13:18 2001 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:42 2005 Subject: OT: food In-Reply-To: Re: OT: food (Richard Erlacher) References: <9011A52E011ED311B4280004AC1BA61501467263@yalepress3.unipress.yale.edu> <006401c1689f$e705f2a0$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> Message-ID: <15339.894.244463.364550@phaduka.neurotica.com> On November 8, Richard Erlacher wrote: > McDonalds puts sugar in their french fries, I recently head on NPR. Apparently > their sales increased slightly when they started doing that. It's consistent > with their tendency to limit our diet to salt, fat, and sugar. In reality, I > guess we do it to ourselves, since we don't have to eat there. The only meal I > occasionally take at the Golden Arches, is breakfast, since they do, oddly > enough, have pretty passable coffee. Remember...fat means flavor! ;) I must admit...I do enjoy a McD's cheeseburger and some fries once in a while. And the [now discontinued] Jalapeno Poppers from Burger King were *really* tasty. Though I'm not supposed to have quite that much salt due to high blood pressure.. :-( -Dave -- Dave McGuire St. Petersburg, FL From vance at ikickass.org Thu Nov 8 16:15:17 2001 From: vance at ikickass.org (One Without Reason) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:42 2005 Subject: food In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20011108163804.00a04540@mail.30below.com> Message-ID: On Thu, 8 Nov 2001, Roger Merchberger wrote: > >Makes Nutella seem like a wholesome product. =) > > At the risk of sounding like Homer Simpson... Oooohh... Nutella... > I've had it once, and that is some *fantastic* stuff... > > *Still* trying to get my uncle to send me some from Deutschland. I ask only > rarely (because I forget to "pester" him) and he forgets to bring some back > when he comes (he usually comes back to the states once or twice a > year...). :-( Hmm? It's available in supermarkets here. In New York. Ask your local supermarket's manager. Supermarkets are usually fairly accomodating, and if they don't have it, they will usually get some for you. Peace... Sridhar From red at bears.org Thu Nov 8 16:18:19 2001 From: red at bears.org (r. 'bear' stricklin) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:42 2005 Subject: food In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20011108163804.00a04540@mail.30below.com> Message-ID: On Thu, 8 Nov 2001, Roger Merchberger wrote: > *Still* trying to get my uncle to send me some from Deutschland. I ask only > rarely (because I forget to "pester" him) and he forgets to bring some back > when he comes (he usually comes back to the states once or twice a > year...). :-( Holy cow, Merch, give your corner grocery another look. I've been able to buy Nutella at almost any supermarket in the greater Seattle metro area for several years now. It's even got a proper US-market nutrition label on it these days, unlike the Ritter Sport I find every now and then, which has just a sticker over the European-market wrapper. Um.. this isn't really on topic for another few years yet. I had Nutella for the first time in mid-1994, when I went to visit a friend in southern Germany. It'll only be on topic then because we ate it on broetchen while hacking on his PC (hallo Andi). (; ok r. From jpero at sympatico.ca Thu Nov 8 11:21:19 2001 From: jpero at sympatico.ca (jpero@sympatico.ca) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:42 2005 Subject: Zenith Data Systems Z-386 SX/20 Free in NJ In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20011108221832.WFCP12500.tomts9-srv.bellnexxia.net@duron> > >The internet is a big place. Don't give up so easily. Most often if you > >don't find results, your search terms need refining. Heh, even that 'net is big, but Zenith is so successful at repelling people from Z's machines way it was plus their website is payware to get info that killed Zenith computer sector and hurt Nec later on, Nec made another mistake to buy up PB too. Ditto to AST. BTW, anybody can access schematics (Tony, they exist) and jumpers info for 1xx and 2xx, 3xx series machines including Z19 series but that take work to find those documention. > (kind of > the idea that when sheetrocking a wall, if you drop a screw, it is more > cost efficient to get a new one from your pouch then to get off the > scaffold and find the one you dropped... for me, it was more cost > efficient to throw out the machine, then to take another 15 minutes > searching for the info I needed. This would have been a totally different > situation if it has been at least a 486, but 386 and less machines can > only be used for one job for me now, and I have a stock pile of them > already) Exactly, in our situation at pc shop, if I find a clone w/ oddball brand or unknown (secretive generics) board, I don't waste time looking for jumper info. Decent used boards w/ sources of good info can be found easily. > However, someone else on this list sent me the key combo as well, so the > machine has been salvaged (it was about 10 minutes away from being Oh, good to hear that. Can't this interview program copied to HD and run from there? If this machine has 8 pin IC socketed on mainboard under the 386sx module, pull it. That's security IC, without it, anybody can't accidently enable it. > -chris Cheers, Wizard From mcguire at neurotica.com Thu Nov 8 16:22:50 2001 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:42 2005 Subject: food In-Reply-To: Re: food (Roger Merchberger) References: <3BE76EE1.D6F3898D@internet1.net> <5.1.0.14.2.20011108163804.00a04540@mail.30below.com> Message-ID: <15339.1466.634223.558590@phaduka.neurotica.com> On November 8, Roger Merchberger wrote: > At the risk of sounding like Homer Simpson... Oooohh... Nutella... > I've had it once, and that is some *fantastic* stuff... > > *Still* trying to get my uncle to send me some from Deutschland. I ask only > rarely (because I forget to "pester" him) and he forgets to bring some back > when he comes (he usually comes back to the states once or twice a > year...). :-( > > Find a way to get me a jar or two, and I'll forgive that "indigenous" remark... Huh? Where do you live, Roger? I just (like two days ago) moved to Florida, but I used to buy it in the Giant supermarket back in Maryland. It never seemed difficult to find. I will look around down here the next time I go to the supermarket. If I can find it here I'd be happy to ship you some. -Dave -- Dave McGuire St. Petersburg, FL From philpem at bigfoot.com Thu Nov 8 16:29:09 2001 From: philpem at bigfoot.com (Philip Pemberton) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:42 2005 Subject: Rubber Restorer... Message-ID: <001301c168a4$c9613200$f9a77ad5@phoenix> > > I wonder how many accidental poisonings occurred? > A number, I would imagine, and especially in tight quarters. I got > exposed to some briefly during the `40s when the paper wrapping on some > decorative steel plate caught fire and the people nearest used a Carbon > Tet extinguisher to put it out. Rather pungent as I recall, so it does > provide some warning. A carbon tet extinguisher? IIRC the trade name for that stuff was "Halon"... > Also in that same era we used to degrease various components of > Resnatron Radar jamming with carbon tet and acetone bare handed. No one > thought a thing of it except for the way it degreased your hide! Acetone. The one common solvent I hate to hell. It ripped apart the supposedly-chemical-resistant gloves I was wearing while I was using it and proceeded to cover my fingers in goop. Took me a week to get all the cack off. "Chemical resistant" my left sock. So what if I've chopped a year or so off my life expectancy? For that year or so, I've had a lot more fun than some people twice my age... Including making a "slugzapper" - a 150V low-current voltage source to keep the slugs away from my Dad's flower bed :-) Oh, then there was the time I "accidentally" made an EHT generator out of a solenoid coil and a few diodes, transistors, etc... It was supposed to be an LC oscillator... Later. -- Phil. philpem@bigfoot.com http://www.philpem.f9.co.uk/ From dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com Thu Nov 8 16:39:10 2001 From: dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com (Douglas Quebbeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:42 2005 Subject: food Message-ID: <7A9BACCEF0171D4FB77019F5104CDD37225894@jeffserver.tegjeff.com> > *Still* trying to get my uncle to send me some from Deutschland. I ask only > rarely (because I forget to "pester" him) and he forgets to bring some back > when he comes (he usually comes back to the states once or twice a > year...). :-( > > Find a way to get me a jar or two, and I'll forgive that > "indigenous" remark... I could swear I've seen Nutella at Wal-Mart... -dq From dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com Thu Nov 8 16:39:59 2001 From: dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com (Douglas Quebbeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:42 2005 Subject: OT: food Message-ID: <7A9BACCEF0171D4FB77019F5104CDD37225895@jeffserver.tegjeff.com> > McDonalds puts sugar in their french fries, I recently head on NPR. Apparently > their sales increased slightly when they started doing that. It's consistent > with their tendency to limit our diet to salt, fat, and sugar. In reality, I > guess we do it to ourselves, since we don't have to eat there. The only meal I > occasionally take at the Golden Arches, is breakfast, since they do, oddly > enough, have pretty passable coffee. ISTR hearing that they started that back in the early 70s... -dq From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Thu Nov 8 11:18:23 2001 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (Ben Franchuk) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:42 2005 Subject: food References: Message-ID: <3BEABE5F.7C3713FD@jetnet.ab.ca> Mike Ford wrote: > > >In some respects it's about getting people to "try" something they aren't > >accustomed to eating, just like when I was trying to train my kids. It's > >really > > I gotta say though this GREEN ketchup Heinz is pushing along with the Shrek > Video really barfs me out. Well toss out the ketchup and rent the video anyhow! Shrek is a fun movie with lots of great lines. Ben Franchuk. -- Live "Pre-historic Cpu's" -- and you thought they were extinct. www.jetnet.ab.ca/users/bfranchuk/index.html From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Thu Nov 8 11:29:39 2001 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (Ben Franchuk) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:42 2005 Subject: OT: food References: <9011A52E011ED311B4280004AC1BA61501467263@yalepress3.unipress.yale.edu> <006401c1689f$e705f2a0$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> Message-ID: <3BEAC103.DF151967@jetnet.ab.ca> Richard Erlacher wrote: > > McDonalds puts sugar in their french fries, I recently head on NPR. Apparently > their sales increased slightly when they started doing that. It's consistent > with their tendency to limit our diet to salt, fat, and sugar. In reality, I > guess we do it to ourselves, since we don't have to eat there. The only meal I > occasionally take at the Golden Arches, is breakfast, since they do, oddly > enough, have pretty passable coffee. And beef flavor too! Ben Franchuk. -- Live "Pre-historic Cpu's" -- and you thought they were extinct. www.jetnet.ab.ca/users/bfranchuk/index.html From ernestls at home.com Thu Nov 8 16:52:28 2001 From: ernestls at home.com (Ernest) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:43 2005 Subject: Idea about Registering rare computers. In-Reply-To: <15339.1466.634223.558590@phaduka.neurotica.com> Message-ID: I was talking to someone earlier today about how many Altair 8800 systems have survived up to the present, and obviously all that we could do is make a guess. Does anyone know? Also, has anyone thought about creating a web site for users to add system that they have to it for tracking purposes. For instance, if you have an Altair, you go to the site and add your system to the list of Altair owners. It might list the serial numbers, model, owner, etc. This idea could be used for many old rare systems. Basically, a registry of owners and their systems. You obviously wouldn't need to include something like the Commodore 64 or Apple IIe but at least the more early computers, like the Apple I for instance. That way, once a system is listed, collectors can somewhat keep track of them informally. How many Apple 1 or PDP-8 systems are left? E. From mythtech at Mac.com Thu Nov 8 17:02:25 2001 From: mythtech at Mac.com (Chris) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:43 2005 Subject: food Message-ID: >>I find it somewhat interesting how Americans define "foreign". Doesn't that >>require something "indigenous"? =) > >Hmmm... not sure if I should be offended by this... Despite the last name >of "Merchberger" a healthy portion of my heritage is descended from exactly >those who were here before the europeans arrived... > >American Indians, aboriginals, "red man", however you want to put it - >there's a great deal in America that's indigenous, and you'd be amazed with >the variety & quality of food that's available at a decent-sized American >Indian pow-wow. You know, I have always been curious why American Indians are the only ones that can claim to be "true Americans" (discounting the fact that "American" can really refer to anyone from North, Central, or South America... but is commonly used to refer to those from the United States of America). My family has direct ancestry to settlers on some of the first ships (for instance, I am related to Thomas Greene, the original governor of the Maryland Colony). My family predates the United States, yet I have very little American Indian genes in me, so I am always chastised when people ask me what my heritage is, and I tell them "I am an American". How far back is one supposed to go to decide their "heritage" 100 years? 200 years? Why stop, why not go back 1000 years, or 2000, or 10,000... heck, I guess we should all just say we are from Java... or should we not stop there.... that's it, from now on, I should tell people I am a proud Ameobian... or maybe just an Enzymian. :-) I stand proud... I am a good old pure bred American mutt! -chris From korpela at ssl.berkeley.edu Thu Nov 8 17:02:21 2001 From: korpela at ssl.berkeley.edu (Eric J. Korpela) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:43 2005 Subject: food In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20011108163804.00a04540@mail.30below.com> from Roger Merchberger at "Nov 8, 2001 04:45:29 pm" Message-ID: <200111082302.PAA26578@ellie.ssl.berkeley.edu> > At the risk of sounding like Homer Simpson... Oooohh... Nutella... > I've had it once, and that is some *fantastic* stuff... > > *Still* trying to get my uncle to send me some from Deutschland. I ask only > rarely (because I forget to "pester" him) and he forgets to bring some back > when he comes (he usually comes back to the states once or twice a > year...). :-( Have you tried a grocery store? It's pretty common around here. Eric From jpero at sympatico.ca Thu Nov 8 12:05:10 2001 From: jpero at sympatico.ca (jpero@sympatico.ca) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:43 2005 Subject: OT: TDA5147CH or substitute IC for the same wanted. In-Reply-To: References: <5.1.0.14.2.20011102101206.0241e6f8@mail.30below.com> Message-ID: <20011108230223.CPEL9080.tomts7-srv.bellnexxia.net@duron> This is gull wing 64pin QFP IC w/ three sections within, unique ASIC for both of spindle motor and voice coil drivers all in one IC. Been looking for a one to pluck from crashed HD to fix mine that IC had burned up. Search on 'net didn't find cross reference for it but I know that few makers like Quantum did use at least two brands of this same for TDA5147K and AN8425NFEG-A. But both are for PLCC. This one I want is 64pin QFP. I have quite bunch of HDs w/ similar looking ICs but need to know of suitable substitute IC. Cheers, Wizard PS: I have both data sheets for TDA5147(CH and K). From mikeford at socal.rr.com Thu Nov 8 16:58:20 2001 From: mikeford at socal.rr.com (Mike Ford) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:43 2005 Subject: hard-sector 5 1/4 disk In-Reply-To: Message-ID: >>>I don't think I'll ever get my dream car. A Bugatti EB16/4. >> >> Nice choice...I'll likely never aquire mine either since all >>surviving examples are still owned by the manufacturer...1955 >>Mercedes 300SLR. > >Dream car?!? Right now I'll just settle for A car! I like the 300 SL (assuming R means race, since the normal ones are available), but I really miss my Porsche 928, and have a serious itch for a Shelby Cobra. From optimus at canit.se Thu Nov 8 16:42:06 2001 From: optimus at canit.se (Iggy Drougge) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:43 2005 Subject: food In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20011108163804.00a04540@mail.30below.com> Message-ID: <1847.712T300T14223649optimus@canit.se> Roger Merchberger skrev: >Rumor has it that Iggy Drougge may have mentioned these words: >>I find it somewhat interesting how Americans define "foreign". Doesn't that >>require something "indigenous"? =) >Hmmm... not sure if I should be offended by this... Despite the last name >of "Merchberger" a healthy portion of my heritage is descended from exactly >those who were here before the europeans arrived... I did not mean to offend anyone. >American Indians, aboriginals, "red man", however you want to put it - >there's a great deal in America that's indigenous, and you'd be amazed with >the variety & quality of food that's available at a decent-sized American >Indian pow-wow. I've never heard of Indian food, save for Mexican corn dishes. >>Makes Nutella seem like a wholesome product. =) >At the risk of sounding like Homer Simpson... Oooohh... Nutella... >I've had it once, and that is some *fantastic* stuff... >*Still* trying to get my uncle to send me some from Deutschland. I ask only >rarely (because I forget to "pester" him) and he forgets to bring some back >when he comes (he usually comes back to the states once or twice a >year...). :-( You don't have Nutella? I thought it would go very well along with Without Reason's favourite sandwiches. Still, Nutella is at least supposed to be made of hazelnuts, it's not quite as chemically derived as the sheets of chocolate which the Danes put on their otherwise excellent sandwiches. >Find a way to get me a jar or two, and I'll forgive that "indigenous" >remark... Send me your snail address and I'll see what I can do. -- En ligne avec Thor 2.6a. IRAQ, 10984 GHz, V Getting TV from Iraq at all is kinda cool - you can get propaganda in English at 1900 BST, and see the guy with the moustache almost any time. When they show anime it's even cooler... Geoff Cowie From optimus at canit.se Thu Nov 8 16:45:08 2001 From: optimus at canit.se (Iggy Drougge) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:43 2005 Subject: OT: food In-Reply-To: <006401c1689f$e705f2a0$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> Message-ID: <513.712T400T14253533optimus@canit.se> Richard Erlacher skrev: >McDonalds puts sugar in their french fries, I recently head on NPR. >Apparently their sales increased slightly when they started doing that. It's >consistent with their tendency to limit our diet to salt, fat, and sugar. ISTR that the main ingredients in the emergency ration bars which soldiers are equipped with is exactly salt, fat and sugar. It obviously not that bad if you're otherwise starving. You're just not supposed to eat it in times of peace. -- En ligne avec Thor 2.6a. From optimus at canit.se Thu Nov 8 16:57:48 2001 From: optimus at canit.se (Iggy Drougge) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:43 2005 Subject: OT - Re: food In-Reply-To: <3BEAE0DA.4EC506A6@verizon.net> Message-ID: <2806.712T2400T14376513optimus@canit.se> Eric Chomko skrev: >Iggy Drougge wrote: >> I find it somewhat interesting how Americans define "foreign". Doesn't that >> require something "indigenous"? =) >Ha! We are accused of being "typical" or "ugly". Those comments make us >indigenous. >(And they say that WE have double standards!) It's such a mess, really. What I did find funny was how Americans define what's foreign, though. Americans are traditionally immigrants, after all. >> I can't say that I know much about American cousine, save for hamburgers, >> but there is a shop in Stockholm which specialises in American food, and I >> must say that the general impression I've got is that it's absolutely >> deranged. >But guess what? I can go to any large city and even smaller ones and get: >Chinese, Korean, Thai, Indian, Mexican, Greek, Italian, Jewish, African (and >others) food. >In fact, all those and more are all within an hour of my house, with many >choices of many. What I lack is good German food nearby, but that is another >story. >Can you get that variety where you live? Certainly. And Mongolian BBQ, too. =) There is a great kiosk with German sausages, too. I don't know much about German food, though. When I was on holidays in Germany, all I ate was kebab and Chinese food. But German kebabs are different. They're made by Turks, and called "kebap". They often contain chicken. >> Two examples: Mustard and mayonnaise mixed into one bottle. Smoke essence, >> added to food in order to get a "grilled" quality. >> And everything is very colourful. >> Oh, and then there's that marshmallow butter, which I think you're supposed >> to have on your sandwich. Makes Nutella seem like a wholesome product. =) >Sounds like Japanese (oops, forgot to add that to my list above) steak house >food. >IOW, authenitic Japanese food is not steak house food, its an >American-influenced version of Japanese food. Authentic Japanese food is >sushi, sashimi, sukiaki, etc. I know all about Japanese food (I'm a Japanese student), but what is Japanese steakhouse? Teppanyaki? Teriyaki? Is it good? I really like teriyaki sauce. >It sounds like what they are passing off as "American food" is a euphemism >for "weird food". I think that's the main selling point, too. My family loves it. I often eat a soup called "Americana", and that seems a lot more wholesome, like a minestrone, and no marshmallow in sight. -- En ligne avec Thor 2.6a. But a graphical client/server model that slices the interface down some arbitrary middle is like Solomon following through with his child-sharing strategy. The legs, heart, and left eye end up on the server, the arms and lungs go to the client, the head is left rolling around on the floor, and blood spurts everywhere. Don Hopkins - The Unix hater's handbook; The X-Windows disaster From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Nov 8 15:38:52 2001 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:43 2005 Subject: Apple Floppy Drives (was: More Apple Pimpers) In-Reply-To: from "One Without Reason" at Nov 8, 1 03:40:31 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1118 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20011108/e8cbc24b/attachment.ksh From mythtech at Mac.com Thu Nov 8 17:17:15 2001 From: mythtech at Mac.com (Chris) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:43 2005 Subject: Zenith Data Systems Z-386 SX/20 Free in NJ Message-ID: >Oh, good to hear that. Can't this interview program copied to HD and >run from there? Could I, yes, will I, no. It isn't my interview software. It is sent by the client (actually, two different ones, but they were once the same company, so they both use the same software/setups). The problem is, they are SUPER security concious. So for me to move it to a hard drive, I would have to edit the way they have it configured. They currently use a boot disk with DOS 3.2, which boots, and loads the interview program, then asks for the 2nd disk which contains the interview script and saves the data. Making the changes to run the whole thing off a HD is trivial, and I have done it in the past. The problem is, they consider doing any changes to their configuration to be a security violation, and when you violate their security, you get suspended as a work site for 2 weeks. So can I do it, yes, I just won't, because it isn't worth the risk of being caught, nor worth the effort to do it, since every job they send new disks, so every job I would have to repeat the conversion. Lots of effort and risk for no increase in usability. Besides, they already don't like me. They keep reusing the same DD 3.5" disks over and over. As a result, the shutters get bent, and I have had countless drives ruined because a bent shutter ripped the drive head off when removing the disk. So I have instructed all my staff to remove any shutters that even look suspect. So now the two companies hate me because they have to keep replacing the DD disks (which are slowly getting harder to find). -chris From optimus at canit.se Thu Nov 8 17:08:30 2001 From: optimus at canit.se (Iggy Drougge) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:43 2005 Subject: Zenith Data Systems Z-386 SX/20 Free in NJ In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <601.713T1500T84985optimus@canit.se> Chris skrev: >As a result, this machine's HD, RAM, CGA card, screws, jumpers, and dust >plates are of more value to me than the working unit (I normally would >want the PS, but it isn't a standard AT connector, so I will just strip >the fan from it). Is it the same fancy connector as the one in my Zenith 486 Z-station? A brown 3?5 pin connector with latches on the side. Looks like a blown up version of certain big-box Commodore supplies. -- En ligne avec Thor 2.6a. "The day Microsoft makes something that doesn't suck is probably the day they start making vacuum cleaners" - Ernst Jan Plugge From jpero at sympatico.ca Thu Nov 8 12:34:28 2001 From: jpero at sympatico.ca (jpero@sympatico.ca) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:43 2005 Subject: Zenith Data Systems Z-386 SX/20 Free in NJ In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20011108233218.SMTN13234.tomts8-srv.bellnexxia.net@duron> > Subject: Re: Zenith Data Systems Z-386 SX/20 Free in NJ > Date: Thu, 8 Nov 2001 18:17:15 -0500 > From: Chris > To: "Classic Computer" > Reply-to: classiccmp@classiccmp.org > Could I, yes, will I, no. It isn't my interview software. It is sent by > the client (actually, two different ones, but they were once the same > company, so they both use the same software/setups). The problem is, they > are SUPER security concious. So for me to move it to a hard drive, I > would have to edit the way they have it configured. They currently use a > boot disk with DOS 3.2, which boots, and loads the interview program, > then asks for the 2nd disk which contains the interview script and saves > the data. Making the changes to run the whole thing off a HD is trivial, > and I have done it in the past. The problem is, they consider doing any > changes to their configuration to be a security violation, and when you > violate their security, you get suspended as a work site for 2 weeks. > > So can I do it, yes, I just won't, because it isn't worth the risk of > being caught, nor worth the effort to do it, since every job they send > new disks, so every job I would have to repeat the conversion. Lots of > effort and risk for no increase in usability. > > Besides, they already don't like me. They keep reusing the same DD 3.5" > disks over and over. As a result, the shutters get bent, and I have had > countless drives ruined because a bent shutter ripped the drive head off > when removing the disk. So I have instructed all my staff to remove any > shutters that even look suspect. So now the two companies hate me because > they have to keep replacing the DD disks (which are slowly getting harder > to find). > > -chris > > Whoa. Time for LART stick to two companies's their tech staff, DD is ok but hard to find now. Instruct the and demo that same program doesn't care running on 1.44MB disks and log the stuff to another 1.44MB disk. Remember to substitute the DOS for 5.0 instead of 3.2 for support of 1.44MB. You need to talk to them to make them understand that DD is not easy to find now and 1.44MB doesn't break the security. They hate you because these people doesn't understand too well what is going on, needs to address this issue and smooth over all ruffled feathers. I think both companies were advised by a dimwit who doesn't know what stuff is talking about. Fire that guy and get one who knows their stuff. Cheers, Wizard From mikeford at socal.rr.com Thu Nov 8 17:24:31 2001 From: mikeford at socal.rr.com (Mike Ford) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:43 2005 Subject: hard-sector 5 1/4 disk In-Reply-To: Message-ID: >> Mac -> Asante SCSI to ethernet adapter -> Farallon Etherwave >>ethernet to Localtalk adapter -> Laserwriter >Yeah, I would have gone Mac to Ethernet (if the mac needed the ethernet), >and LaserWriter to Mac via localtalk, run Apple's local talk bridge >software, and the whole ethernet network (including the local mac) will >see the laserwriter on the ethernet network. What confused me for a long time, and is currently scheduled for again this evening, is that Apple printers in many cases are NOT TCP/IP, but ethertalk (same physical layer, different protocol). Some of the bridges and routers pass TCP/IP or EtherTalk, but not both, then add to that the native network blind character of a Wintel box and I am walking in a foggy forest. Tonights fun, Apple Laserwriter 16/600 vs W98se, film at 11. From optimus at canit.se Thu Nov 8 17:32:37 2001 From: optimus at canit.se (Iggy Drougge) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:43 2005 Subject: Missing was Re: OS9 or Flex09 on 8" disk needed In-Reply-To: <20011108182350.B25885@mordor.angband.thangorodrim.de> Message-ID: <402.713T1850T325563optimus@canit.se> Alexander Schreiber skrev: >> I tend to use wget. Runs on everything. The only problem is, it's a GNU >> program, and that's a big problem. >Why would that be a problem? I tend to use wget a lot and it does a >pretty good job. The problem with GNU programs is that they're so difficult to use. -- En ligne avec Thor 2.6a. Amiga 4000/040 25MHz/64MB/20GB RetinaBLTZ3/VLab/FastlaneZ3/Ariadne/Toccata From optimus at canit.se Thu Nov 8 17:36:28 2001 From: optimus at canit.se (Iggy Drougge) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:43 2005 Subject: 8 inch floppy drives In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <903.713T1400T365069optimus@canit.se> Chris skrev: >Or you can use a computer's video capture card and defeat macrovision >while you are at it (That is how I use my PAL VCR... I play it thru my >Mac's TV Tuner card which can read PAL... and when I want to copy tapes >to NTSC, I just sync it to the video output, which feeds NTSC, and >creates a new sync pulse, thus defeating macrovision... oh wait, by >saying this I am in violation of the DMCA... shucks!) This is a little on topic, since it concerns a "classic" technology. I'm told that Macrovision is very VHS-centric, and as a consequence, it's without consequence when dubbed onto ?etamax, VCR or Video 2000, to name a few. I wish I had salvaged that VCR machine now... Not for piracy, I just like old video equipment. -- En ligne avec Thor 2.6a. Idealismus ist die F?higkeit, die Menschen so zu sehen, wie sie sein k?nnten, wenn sie nicht so w?ren, wie sie sind. --- Curt Goetz From geoffrob at stmarks.pp.catholic.edu.au Thu Nov 8 17:51:19 2001 From: geoffrob at stmarks.pp.catholic.edu.au (Geoff Roberts) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:43 2005 Subject: food References: <3BE76EE1.D6F3898D@internet1.net> <5.1.0.14.2.20011108163804.00a04540@mail.30below.com> <15339.1466.634223.558590@phaduka.neurotica.com> Message-ID: <00b201c168b0$43b89e70$de2c67cb@helpdesk> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Dave McGuire" To: Sent: Friday, November 09, 2001 8:52 AM Subject: Re: food > but I used to buy it in the Giant supermarket back in > Maryland. It never seemed difficult to find. I will look around down > here the next time I go to the supermarket. If I can find it here I'd > be happy to ship you some. Readily available at Coles and Woolworths supermarkets here. It's very popular with the pre teen crowd and some suggest it is threatening to replace Vegemite as a breakfast spread. (I see no danger of that myself, my kids seem to like both) Cheers Geoff Roberts Computer Systems Manager Saint Mark's College Port Pirie, South Australia geoffrob@stmarks.pp.catholic.edu.au From UberTechnoid at home.com Thu Nov 8 17:53:06 2001 From: UberTechnoid at home.com (UberTechnoid@home.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:43 2005 Subject: Refilling Toner Carts (was RE: Rubber Restorer...) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20011108235456.LTQQ21184.femail33.sdc1.sfba.home.com@BENCHBOX> I don't know what is in it, but there used to be a spray surface cleaner called Fantastik you could buy at any grocery store. I wouln't have believed it if I hadn't seen it, but in grade-school my teacher used it to remove the paint lines from our concrete basketball court. >From that experience, I wouldn't leave Fantastik to soak very long on **any** surface you care about...... Regards, Jeff In , on 11/07/01 at 05:50 PM, "Fred Cisin (XenoSoft)" said: >> That's interesting. I have a junk cartridge for my HP 1600CM that I'd be >> willing to try it on. Anyone know what's in 409 cleaner? >408 failed attempts before they finally got it to work? -- ----------------------------------------------------------- Jeffrey S. Worley Asheville, NC USA 828-6984887 UberTechnoid@Home.com ----------------------------------------------------------- From UberTechnoid at home.com Thu Nov 8 17:57:11 2001 From: UberTechnoid at home.com (UberTechnoid@home.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:43 2005 Subject: Atari ST cartridge port In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20011108235852.MECL15745.femail28.sdc1.sfba.home.com@BENCHBOX> The cart port on the st series wasn't much used at all. The only things I can think of that used it were the MagicSac type Macintosh upgrade and some hacks that allow you to run a Parallel port ethernet interface (the cart port serves to provide a couple of lines the Printer port is lacking). Regards, Jeff In , on 11/08/01 at 05:07 AM, Jeff Hellige said: >>Does anyone know where one might get a hold of 2 mm spaced (not 2,54 mm) card- >>edge connectors? The Atari ST cartridge port is using that spacing, which >>doesn't seem very popular. > There don't seem to be that many cartridges for it either. The only one >I have is a VT100 emulation cart. > Jeff -- ----------------------------------------------------------- Jeffrey S. Worley Asheville, NC USA 828-6984887 UberTechnoid@Home.com ----------------------------------------------------------- From UberTechnoid at home.com Thu Nov 8 17:59:18 2001 From: UberTechnoid at home.com (UberTechnoid@home.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:43 2005 Subject: Refilling Toner Carts (was RE: Rubber Restorer...) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20011109000127.LUEZ1342.femail26.sdc1.sfba.home.com@BENCHBOX> I'm not certain, but reasonably sure inkjet carts are unlikely to freeze. I think one of the main ingredients is Ethelene Glycol which is used as antifreeze in automobile radiators. I recall the Cannon 300? series used alcohol-based ink. It has plastic lines running from the resivoir to the head. What a rig. I've seen several of these printers and they all had clogging problems and a non-replaceable head (for all practical purposes). Regards, Jeff In , on 11/08/01 at 01:25 AM, Mike Ford said: >>> Advice I learned the hard way, NEVER pick up unknown toner or ink jet >>> cartridges that have been setting in the sun. >> >>Watch out for expired HP carts, I picked up 3 unopened color >>carts from goodwill a few years ago, 2 years after the >>expiration date I had the opportunity to try them out. The color >>carts all printed in a un-uniform shade of brown/grey. >>Even at 3$ a unit, it was still an ouch. >Not really as bad as a leaking cartridge that you don't notice until its >dripping off your elbow. Only took 2 weeks to wear off. >Something must have happened to those cartridges, because I know I have >used some that were older than that without a hitch, plus a guy I know at >the swapmeets sells about 100+ date expired units per week, and nobody >seems to be complaining. Maybe they got too hot, or froze or something? >Normal shelf life is what, 3 to 5 years? -- ----------------------------------------------------------- Jeffrey S. Worley Asheville, NC USA 828-6984887 UberTechnoid@Home.com ----------------------------------------------------------- From donm at cts.com Thu Nov 8 18:07:37 2001 From: donm at cts.com (Don Maslin) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:43 2005 Subject: Rubber Restorer... In-Reply-To: <001301c168a4$c9613200$f9a77ad5@phoenix> Message-ID: On Thu, 8 Nov 2001, Philip Pemberton wrote: > > > I wonder how many accidental poisonings occurred? > > A number, I would imagine, and especially in tight quarters. I got > > exposed to some briefly during the `40s when the paper wrapping on some > > decorative steel plate caught fire and the people nearest used a Carbon > > Tet extinguisher to put it out. Rather pungent as I recall, so it does > > provide some warning. > A carbon tet extinguisher? IIRC the trade name for that stuff was "Halon"... 'Fraid not. Carbon Tetrachloride is a liquid at normal temperatures and used to be the fire extinguisher of choice in hand-pumped extinguishers for mobile - read cars, trucks, and buses - use. Halon, on the other hand, is a gas at normal temperatures and is actually breathable for short periods. - don > > Also in that same era we used to degrease various components of > > Resnatron Radar jamming with carbon tet and acetone bare handed. No one > > thought a thing of it except for the way it degreased your hide! > Acetone. The one common solvent I hate to hell. It ripped apart the > supposedly-chemical-resistant gloves I was wearing while I was using it and > proceeded to cover my fingers in goop. Took me a week to get all the cack > off. "Chemical resistant" my left sock. > > So what if I've chopped a year or so off my life expectancy? For that year > or so, I've had a lot more fun than some people twice my age... Including > making a "slugzapper" - a 150V low-current voltage source to keep the slugs > away from my Dad's flower bed :-) > Oh, then there was the time I "accidentally" made an EHT generator out of a > solenoid coil and a few diodes, transistors, etc... It was supposed to be an > LC oscillator... > > Later. > -- > Phil. > philpem@bigfoot.com > http://www.philpem.f9.co.uk/ > > From UberTechnoid at home.com Thu Nov 8 18:05:26 2001 From: UberTechnoid at home.com (UberTechnoid@home.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:43 2005 Subject: Stacking Apple ][ stuff In-Reply-To: <16b.396aecd.291beee4@aol.com> Message-ID: <20011109000823.MAEB25156.femail40.sdc1.sfba.home.com@BENCHBOX> The article only mentions the '2 pam chloride' and atropine autoinjectors. When I was in the Seabees in Saudi and Kuwait during the war we tool Pyridostigmine Bromide tablets and Cipro tablets several times a day and carried autoinjectors with 10cc's of Diazpam with is a generic for Valium. The purpose of the Cipro is obvious ( antibiotic ), but the PB tablets and the Diazpam serve as neuro inhibitors preventing your nervous system from 'misfireing like crazy'. They serve as something of a buffer to the system. Regards, Jeff In <16b.396aecd.291beee4@aol.com>, on 11/08/01 at 09:21 AM, SUPRDAVE@aol.com said: >clearing the HYPE about bioterrorism >www.formatc.org/terrorism.htm -- ----------------------------------------------------------- Jeffrey S. Worley Asheville, NC USA 828-6984887 UberTechnoid@Home.com ----------------------------------------------------------- From UberTechnoid at home.com Thu Nov 8 18:08:58 2001 From: UberTechnoid at home.com (UberTechnoid@home.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:43 2005 Subject: Refilling Toner Carts (was RE: Rubber Restorer...) In-Reply-To: <7A9BACCEF0171D4FB77019F5104CDD3722588F@jeffserver.tegjeff.com> Message-ID: <20011109000928.MSQB19157.femail30.sdc1.sfba.home.com@BENCHBOX> A bead blaster would give you that satin finish in no time flat... Regards, Jeff >> About the only common material that sodium hydroxide will attack is >> aluminium, and then only when concentrated or exposure is reasonably long; >> it has no effect on copper, steel, etc. >Yeah, I've relied on this as a way to make satin-finish aluminum front >panels for equipment. As the reaction progresses, the NAO2 (?) solution >has to be preiodlically replaced. It generally took me about two days to >get the desired look. >-dq -- ----------------------------------------------------------- Jeffrey S. Worley Asheville, NC USA 828-6984887 UberTechnoid@Home.com ----------------------------------------------------------- From cisin at xenosoft.com Thu Nov 8 18:13:41 2001 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin (XenoSoft)) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:43 2005 Subject: head-positioners - (was Apple Floppy Drives (was: More ApplePimpers)) In-Reply-To: <3BEAEFA1.68EFD82@verizon.net> Message-ID: > > Micropolis was one of the only ones to use a helical lead screw positioner > > for a 5.25" floppy. VERY SLOW. They also made a 100TPI (not 96) drive. On Thu, 8 Nov 2001, Eric Chomko wrote: > Wasn't Micropolis' drive a 77 track thing? It was, indeed rated at 77 track, but, ... it could go slightly past, and some would go as far as 80. BTW, The Tandon TM100-4 was 96TPI, but the TM100-4M (for "Micropolis"?) was 100 TPI. > > Starting with the MPI B51, most drives went to a split band positioner. > > In addition to the spiral groove positioner, the SA400 was 35 track, > > whereas all others that followed were 40 track. > I have both SA400 and MPI B51s. They are compatible. ALMOST, The MPI was 40 track, MUCH faster, tended to stay in alignment much better, and didn't mangle the center hole. Is that compatible? -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin@xenosoft.com NOTE: My ISP is having some problems. If you have difficulty reaching me at this e-mail address, you can leave a message at: fcisin@merritt.edu cisin@info.sims.berkeley.edu From UberTechnoid at home.com Thu Nov 8 18:10:52 2001 From: UberTechnoid at home.com (UberTechnoid@home.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:43 2005 Subject: Nuke Redmond! In-Reply-To: <200111082112.QAA06487@www23.ureach.com> Message-ID: <20011109001354.MUSO5981.femail47.sdc1.sfba.home.com@BENCHBOX> I know how you all love this thread.... Now that the government and MS appear to have come to something of an agreement, I wondered what the C-Comp folks think? For myself I think it is too little too late and does not directly address actual crimes committed by the heads of the company. One thing it DOES do is identify MS as having caused actual harm to some companies and provides those companies recourse through separate lawsuits (ala Sun Microsystems, IBM, and others). Regards, Jeff -- ----------------------------------------------------------- Jeffrey S. Worley Asheville, NC USA 828-6984887 UberTechnoid@Home.com ----------------------------------------------------------- From cisin at xenosoft.com Thu Nov 8 18:15:31 2001 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin (XenoSoft)) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:43 2005 Subject: Apple Floppy Drives (was: More Apple Pimpers) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Thu, 8 Nov 2001, Feldman, Robert wrote: > (BTW, my 14-year old son has three slide rules and was quite interested in > the giant one up on the wall in a hall at his high school.) A friend of mine has one of those. I'm envious. From jrkeys at concentric.net Thu Nov 8 18:35:15 2001 From: jrkeys at concentric.net (John R. Keys Jr.) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:43 2005 Subject: Classic Gaming Collections References: Message-ID: <007901c168b6$67e9d9c0$98721fd1@default> I just picked up a NOMAD while in Houston last week and you right about how nice they are. All I got was the console , one cartridge, and the power adapter. No manuals or the box for it. ----- Original Message ----- From: "One Without Reason" To: "Iggy Drougge" Cc: "Lanny Cox" Sent: Thursday, November 08, 2001 4:13 PM Subject: Re: Classic Gaming Collections > On 8 Nov 2001, Iggy Drougge wrote: > > > Lanny Cox skrev: > > > > >Game Gear, etc. > > > > My little brother tells me that the Game Gear is supposed to be rereleased at > > a low price in America. I really hope they'll do something about the old > > battery time, then. > > I have a Nomad and a Game Gear (as well as a Triad and a ColecoVision). > The Nomad is *sooo* much nicer. Plays Genesis cartridges, so there are > games out the wazoo for it. > > Peace... Sridhar > > From mcguire at neurotica.com Thu Nov 8 18:21:23 2001 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:43 2005 Subject: Nuke Redmond! In-Reply-To: Nuke Redmond! (UberTechnoid@home.com) References: <200111082112.QAA06487@www23.ureach.com> <20011109001354.MUSO5981.femail47.sdc1.sfba.home.com@BENCHBOX> Message-ID: <15339.8579.914239.138294@phaduka.neurotica.com> On November 8, UberTechnoid@home.com wrote: > I know how you all love this thread.... > > Now that the government and MS appear to have come to something of an > agreement, I wondered what the C-Comp folks think? > > For myself I think it is too little too late and does not directly address > actual crimes committed by the heads of the company. One thing it DOES do > is identify MS as having caused actual harm to some companies and provides > those companies recourse through separate lawsuits (ala Sun Microsystems, > IBM, and others). Too bad people [companies] can't be sued for being incompetent schmucks. -Dave -- Dave McGuire St. Petersburg, FL From UberTechnoid at home.com Thu Nov 8 18:15:46 2001 From: UberTechnoid at home.com (UberTechnoid@home.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:43 2005 Subject: food In-Reply-To: <1847.712T300T14223649optimus@canit.se> Message-ID: <20011109002153.NEBI19157.femail30.sdc1.sfba.home.com@BENCHBOX> Merch lives in Sioux territory. I don't know what they eat, but I live in Cherokee territory and they have all kinds of 'indiginous' foods that would seem very ordinary on anyone's table really. Native Americans were for the most part unaware of spices as europeans know them so you might find things a bit bland but filling and wholesome. Some things you don't often see but Cherokee eat often are Venison, Buffalo, Aligator, Rabbit, snakes, frogs, and just about any bird large enough to be worth cleaning. If you haven't been to your local Indian reservation to dine, I strongly reccomend you do. There are foods available there that you cannot buy anywhere else either due to species protection laws or more likely, low demand outside the reservations and hunting laws which restrict game like deer etc to your own table and not for sale. Regards, Jeff In <1847.712T300T14223649optimus@canit.se>, on 11/08/01 at 11:42 PM, "Iggy Drougge" said: >>American Indians, aboriginals, "red man", however you want to put it - >>there's a great deal in America that's indigenous, and you'd be amazed with >>the variety & quality of food that's available at a decent-sized American >>Indian pow-wow. >I've never heard of Indian food, save for Mexican corn dishes. -- ----------------------------------------------------------- Jeffrey S. Worley Asheville, NC USA 828-6984887 UberTechnoid@Home.com ----------------------------------------------------------- From cisin at xenosoft.com Thu Nov 8 18:24:23 2001 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin (XenoSoft)) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:43 2005 Subject: OT: food In-Reply-To: <006401c1689f$e705f2a0$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> Message-ID: On Thu, 8 Nov 2001, Richard Erlacher wrote: > McDonalds puts sugar in their french fries, I recently head on NPR. Apparently > their sales increased slightly when they started doing that. It's consistent > with their tendency to limit our diet to salt, fat, and sugar. In reality, I > guess we do it to ourselves, since we don't have to eat there. The only meal I > occasionally take at the Golden Arches, is breakfast, since they do, oddly > enough, have pretty passable coffee. McDonald's ALSO adds a "beef extract" to their fries! Some Hindus and vegetarians were quite upset to find out. But the McDonald's spokesperson said, "We NEVER said that our fries were vegetable." From cisin at xenosoft.com Thu Nov 8 18:33:09 2001 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin (XenoSoft)) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:43 2005 Subject: Zenith Data Systems Z-386 SX/20 Free in NJ In-Reply-To: <20011108233218.SMTN13234.tomts8-srv.bellnexxia.net@duron> Message-ID: On Thu, 8 Nov 2001 jpero@sympatico.ca wrote: > 1.44MB disk. Remember to substitute the DOS for 5.0 instead of 3.2 > for support of 1.44MB. 3.30 (or ZENITH 3.31) will handle 1.4M From healyzh at aracnet.com Thu Nov 8 18:40:57 2001 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:43 2005 Subject: Nuke Redmond! In-Reply-To: <20011109001354.MUSO5981.femail47.sdc1.sfba.home.com@BENCHBOX> from "UberTechnoid@home.com" at Nov 08, 2001 07:10:52 PM Message-ID: <200111090040.fA90evZ07039@shell1.aracnet.com> > I know how you all love this thread.... Guess again. Let's have this thread die here and now rather than flaring up again! Zane From jpero at sympatico.ca Thu Nov 8 13:51:46 2001 From: jpero at sympatico.ca (jpero@sympatico.ca) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:43 2005 Subject: OT: food In-Reply-To: References: <006401c1689f$e705f2a0$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> Message-ID: <20011109004900.OKCY3045.tomts12-srv.bellnexxia.net@duron> > McDonald's ALSO adds a "beef extract" to their fries! > Some Hindus and vegetarians were quite upset to find out. > But the McDonald's spokesperson said, "We NEVER said that our fries were > vegetable." Golden Arches's fries... yumm. Then sugar now beef favoring in fries, I see. Anyway I like it not too cooked that it is too dry and hard, yuk. But too often of late, I bite into green patatoes. Blech! Burgers, no smoke taste or char on those burger meat. Boring...I always ordered one w/ bacon to kickstart the taste buds (those people usually overcook that bacon awww), no pickles and no ketchup and add real tomato yes, you can and justask for it. Pickles is too tangy and ketchup washes out the overall favor of whole burger. True japanese restaurants are incredicably hard to find and we know of one in north bay, ontario, when we do visit grandma, we may choose to go there and watch the chef do their cooking then have a wonderful dinner. This is real treat because we go there very seldom. Cheers, Wizard From mythtech at Mac.com Thu Nov 8 18:50:02 2001 From: mythtech at Mac.com (Chris) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:43 2005 Subject: Zenith Data Systems Z-386 SX/20 Free in NJ Message-ID: >Time for LART stick to two companies's their tech staff, DD is ok >but hard to find now. Instruct the and demo that same program >doesn't care running on 1.44MB disks and log the stuff to another >1.44MB disk. Remember to substitute the DOS for 5.0 instead of 3.2 >for support of 1.44MB. > >You need to talk to them to make them understand that DD is not easy >to find now and 1.44MB doesn't break the security. > Well, unfortunatly, I understand, technology wise, where they are coming from. They used to require everyone to use 360k 5.25 disks. They only made the switch to 3.5s because the 360k disks became so hard to get, and they weren't very durable. Their software will actually run just fine off two 360k disks on an XT system. And in fact, the software has never changed (they could do the whole thing off one 720k disk now, but it would have involved changing proceedures at all their interviewing sub sites... you are talking about asking people that are lucky they know how to turn a computer on, to change how they do interviews). The company (they split into 2 after the 720k switch) opted to use a double 720k disk approach to keep proceedure the same. They also opted to use 720 because most PCs had that in them at the time they did the switch (1.44's were newer, and although widely available, not as likely at the time to be installed in the computers the interviewing sites already owned). Also, 720k drives were cheaper, so those that had to upgrade could do so cheaper. Now it has stayed that way, simply because outside of not being able to get DD disks, they have thousands of interviewing sites in the US all geared up to work with 720k disks. I personally think moving to HDs would be a non issue, as I suspect that most of the sites have already long since upgraded their computers (I have exactly one computer in the field with a try 720k drive, one out of about 30 used on these jobs), but the companies don't see it that way. They don't want to force the tens of thousands of interviewing computers to be upgraded. >They hate you because these people doesn't understand too well what >is going on, needs to address this issue and smooth over all ruffled >feathers. They hate me, because I have all 7 of our sites ripping shutters off their disks so they stop damaging my drives (which they refuse to pay for when they are damaged). This causes them to have to replace the hard to find disks (which also means fewer support calls to me when one of the well overused disks fails and generates errors and confuses/scares my interviewing staff). Add to that the fact that I know how to bypass ALL their software security (it really is a joke, their "security" consists of hiding files and directories, know the names, and you can bypass it... know of a little program called ATTRIB and the security disappears). I scare them more than anything else. > >I think both companies were advised by a dimwit who doesn't know what >stuff is talking about. Fire that guy and get one who knows their >stuff. They have a few interview script programmers who handle everything. The new jobs are sent via modem to a master machine at each site (running a pretty pick and choose front end to kermit and copy). They mail disk packs to the sites before each job, and the disk packs are nothing more than the same tired, beatup old boot disks, and reused, reformatted (using format /q I am sure) interview disks. They stick new lables on the interview disks that reflect the current job number. Old labels get peeled off when the pile gets high enough that the disk no longer fits in the drive!. When they do a job, an interview disk is inserted into the master computer, where the job files are copied to it, and a text file is tagged that the disk has been used. When the day is done, the disk is put back into the master computer, the data files copied to the hard drive, and the computer is set to wait for a phone call, so it can upload the day's interviews. I don't think anyone there knows enough about anything to risk change. It has been a case of, this was state of the art when it was designed... but years later, it is badly out of date, but no one is employed anymore that understands technology (at least not in the division that handles this stuff), so they are all just afraid to make changes, because they don't know WHAT they are doing, just how to do it. The could avoid all this with a simple proceedure change. That is, stop mailing out disks, and update their boot disks to support 1.44 drives. Then just tell each site to buy a pack of HD disks, and reuse as needed. The sending and forcing people to use provided disks, is useless (and a waste of money on their part). Again, it dates back to when floppies were actually expensive, and they didn't want each site to have to buy their own. I'm not sure when the last time was that I "paid" for disks, as I always buy them when I can get a rebate equal to or above the cost of the disk pack. I have of course recommended this to them a number of times... but they don't want anything to do with change. "I fear change, so I will keep my bush" -Quizzno's -chris From mythtech at Mac.com Thu Nov 8 18:50:03 2001 From: mythtech at Mac.com (Chris) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:43 2005 Subject: 8 inch floppy drives Message-ID: >This is a little on topic, since it concerns a "classic" technology. >I'm told that Macrovision is very VHS-centric, and as a consequence, it's >without consequence when dubbed onto ?etamax, VCR or Video 2000, to name a >few. >I wish I had salvaged that VCR machine now... Not for piracy, I just like old >video equipment. Since I don't live in California (who has recently ruled it to be ok to discuss how to bypass copy protection), I can technically be a heap of trouble for saying this... but f-em. Macrovision basically puts a signal in the vertical sync pulse that confuses a VCRs auto adujustment circuitry. Normal VCRs (almost any that you can buy today) will adjust for weak or strong signals to "normalize" a video. Macrovision writes artificially strong or weak signals in that pulse, so the "normalizing" distorts the image. This is transparent on most systems during playback, as the adjustment occurs at record time. But good high quality equipment, and many projection TVs adjust on playback as well... causing the Macrovision to kick in, preventing you from watching the video at all. It will effect any system that depends on signal adjustment based on the sync pulse. Basically VHS. They have also begun to macrovise DVD and Satallite (which is going to start pissing off more people, as Satallite owners are more apt to also own high end equipment that will be distorted on playback). Things like 8mm, Beta, UMatic, won't be effected, because they look elsewhere for adjustment (but if you dupe a macrovised movie to 8mm, and then back to VHS, it will still kick in, as the sync has been carried over, but the 8mm copy will be clean). To bypass it, you just need to either adjust the sync, or write a new one. External macrovision defeating boxes tend to flatten out the signal. Or you can use a TBC (time base corrector) to write a brand new pulse. Or, in the case of what I do, my computer does it as a side effect. When I dupe thru it, I am not actually copying the video, but rather recording an NTSC conversion of what my computer screen is displaying. So the original sync is never passed thru (so I get the same net result as a TBC, without the benefit of being able to do A/B roll without gen lock problems). Now... to go a bit more off topic... I can be fined/jailed for sharing this with you, because it is a violation of the DMCA. However, there is NOTHING that I discussed here that I had to learn from "pirate" sites. EVERYTHING I learned in collage during my assorted TV production classes (I majored in TV/Theater production, well, at least until I dropped out of school). If you have a half way decent understanding of TV production, how macrovision works becomes an almost obvious no brainer, and how to defeat it becomes an absolute joke.... but I can still go to jail... but the MPAA/RIAA want you to believe the DMCA is a fair, just, and "good for you" law! -chris From mythtech at Mac.com Thu Nov 8 18:50:04 2001 From: mythtech at Mac.com (Chris) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:43 2005 Subject: Zenith Data Systems Z-386 SX/20 Free in NJ Message-ID: >Is it the same fancy connector as the one in my Zenith 486 Z-station? A brown >3?5 pin connector with latches on the side. Looks like a blown up version of >certain big-box Commodore supplies. It was just a plain square molex connector. Looked kind of like the Mac LC class power supply connectors. I think it was 4 pins (two rows of 2), but I am not sure as I have already reset it, closed it and stuck it on a shelf. -chris From jhellige at earthlink.net Thu Nov 8 19:14:58 2001 From: jhellige at earthlink.net (Jeff Hellige) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:43 2005 Subject: Zenith Data Systems Z-386 SX/20 Free in NJ In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: >It's even corroborated in the list archives at classiccmp.org. furrfu. >( http://www.classiccmp.org/mail-archive/classiccmp/1997-03/0464.html ) Cool...one of my old messages talking about this very subject! Jeff -- Home of the TRS-80 Model 2000 FAQ File http://www.cchaven.com http://www.geocities.com/siliconvalley/lakes/6757 From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Thu Nov 8 12:28:49 2001 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (Ben Franchuk) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:43 2005 Subject: food References: <20011109002153.NEBI19157.femail30.sdc1.sfba.home.com@BENCHBOX> Message-ID: <3BEACEE1.51C301D5@jetnet.ab.ca> UberTechnoid@home.com wrote: > Some things you don't often see but Cherokee eat often are Venison, > Buffalo, Aligator, Rabbit, snakes, frogs, and just about any bird large > enough to be worth cleaning. Some mighty fine eating here: http://www.realcajun.com/ Ben Franchuk -- Live "Pre-historic Cpu's" -- and you thought they were extinct. www.jetnet.ab.ca/users/bfranchuk/index.html From pete at dunnington.u-net.com Thu Nov 8 16:36:07 2001 From: pete at dunnington.u-net.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:43 2005 Subject: Apple Floppy Drives (was: More Apple Pimpers) In-Reply-To: ard@p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) "Re: Apple Floppy Drives (was: More Apple Pimpers)" (Nov 8, 19:32) References: Message-ID: <10111082236.ZM5246@mindy.dunnington.u-net.com> On Nov 8, 19:32, Tony Duell wrote: > > I never had problems as you describe, nor have I ever heard of anyone > > needing to adjust the alignment of an Apple disk drive. > > I have had to align Disk IIs. The version based on the SA400 mechanism, > if there's more than 1 type. And it certainly appeared as though the > continual banging of the head against the end stop (due to there being no > track 0 sensor) was a contributory factor in them losing alignment. I've had to do that too, and I tend to agree with Tony that the banging on the end stop seems to contribute to the need. However, I ought to point out that I've had to align lots of other 5.25" drives as well (I used to be a (micro)computer technician, a long time ago), including ones that used taut band mechanisms and leadscrews. > > As far as I know, there is no procedure in the Disk ][ manual for aligning > > a drive, and as far as I know, there is no reason for needing one. > > There is no procedure in PC user manuals for aligning the floppy drives. > Are you saying such a procedure does not exist? I have the service > manuals for the Teac drives used in my PCs and they include alignment > procedures. As does the Apple Service Manual for the Apple ][, as sold to all Apple Service Centres in the early '80s. It gives explicit instructions on head alignment, and board setup. I don't think I found Disk ][s to be much less reliable than contemporary drives, and mine are still going strong (both pairs). We all learned to open the door before power-up or power-down, but we had to do that with CBM drives and many others too. Certainly some brands of disk were better than others but that was true in the Commodore drives and the Cromemco drives, and later in the Acorn/BBC drives as well. Most of the time, they were on top of the machine, with the monitor on top of that, and I don't recall any problems that could be ascribed to that. The only catastrophic failures I can remember (apart from "Oh Spit! I meant to format the *other* disk!") were due to users replacing the cables wrongly. I think I've told this story before, but the Tech College used to loan Apples out to staff over the weekends. Typically the drives would be disconnected to make it easier to carry. It's easy to put that 20-pin ribbon header back, one pin along from its correct position on the controller, and if you do, you let a lot of magic white smoke out of the drive door. You can tell it's magic smoke, because the drive never has enough magic left to work after that. Usually the 74LS125 takes the brunt, but at least once it took out the MC3470 as well. That was "interesting" the first time, as Apple carried no spares, and the Motorola distributors claimed it didn't exist. -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager University of York From pete at dunnington.u-net.com Thu Nov 8 17:07:17 2001 From: pete at dunnington.u-net.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:43 2005 Subject: Micro PDP 11/73 In-Reply-To: Lawrence LeMay "Re: Micro PDP 11/73" (Nov 6, 18:41) References: <200111070041.SAA05013@caesar.cs.umn.edu> Message-ID: <10111082307.ZM5260@mindy.dunnington.u-net.com> On Nov 6, 18:41, Lawrence LeMay wrote: > Well, I have a 1 Mbyte MOS RAM board, M3104 8-line asyncronous multiplexor > with DMA (can these be used as normal serial ports, or do I need more > external hardware?) It's a DHV11. You need the "cabinet kit" which is essentially a (pair of?) panels with 4(?) DB25s on each, with a ribbon cable to connect them to the Berg connector on the card. No additional elecronics, just wires. > a M7546 TMSCP controller for TK50 tape unit (which > I dont have), and the M7555 MFM Winchester & Floppy disk controller. That last is an RQDX3, MSCP controller. What version are the ROMs, out of interest? > I'm assuming I just connect a terminal to the main console serial port, > and hope someone left me an operating system since I have no peripherals > at this time... Yes. One of the switches sets the baud rate, default is 9600 8N1. Depending on which boot ROMs are on the card, you should see some sort of diagnostic display, and it may or may bot try to autoboot. If you tell us the ROM numbers (something like 23-238E5 or just 238E5) we can probably tell you which version it is. I have a copy of the MicroPDP-11 handbook somewhere, I can probably look it up. -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager University of York From pete at dunnington.u-net.com Thu Nov 8 14:21:59 2001 From: pete at dunnington.u-net.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:43 2005 Subject: Clearly OT (but what the hell...) (was: food In-Reply-To: Douglas Quebbeman "RE: Clearly OT (but what the hell...) (was: food" (Nov 8, 11:49) References: <7A9BACCEF0171D4FB77019F5104CDD3722588D@jeffserver.tegjeff.com> Message-ID: <10111082021.ZM5030@mindy.dunnington.u-net.com> On Nov 8, 11:49, Douglas Quebbeman wrote: > > It varies. Which night would you like? :-) > Any night whose name ends in the letter 'Y' and which > occurs once each week... but Chris already informed me > this is merely a yearly affair... one I'm sure to look > forward to if I have to wait a year for a wee dram! But the drinking part and eating part, and indeed most other parts needn't only be annual. Only the Burn's Night title part is annual :-) Um, you do have to listen to bagpipes, though, if it's Burn's Night. -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager University of York From pete at dunnington.u-net.com Thu Nov 8 16:54:46 2001 From: pete at dunnington.u-net.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:43 2005 Subject: Sun / CalComp Printer networking problems (was: Thick Ethernet/Sun networking problems) In-Reply-To: Arno Kletzander "Re: Sun / CalComp Printer networking problems (was: Thick Ethernet/Sun networking problems)" (Nov 8, 7:50) References: <25098.1005202230@www30.gmx.net> Message-ID: <10111082254.ZM5252@mindy.dunnington.u-net.com> Hi, Arno. On Nov 8, 7:50, Arno Kletzander wrote: > at first: Is it okay to continue our mailing this way (directly mailing the > messages, only CCing to Classiccmp.org? It's because I'm on the Digest and it > has been arriving at about 4 P.M. local time the last few days, which is too > late for me to stay in school and pick it up the same day (alas, don't have > Internet at home yet). Yes, that's OK. I don;t know if you'll necessarily get a faster response, but it's worth a try :-) > No, nothing on that board. There are only two 2pin jumpers, one for printing > out the adapter's status page and one for resetting the NOVRAM contents to > the factory defaults. I think I've already seen what you mean on other network > devices (six or so 3-pin jumpers, the movable parts sometimes joined in a > blue plastic tray). OK. It's probably a little more modern than I thought, then. I guess it senses that it is receiving link pulse on the 10baseT interface and uses that, otherwise it uses the AUI. > >>But no signs of overheating etc. on the PCB... > > OK, I admit that was only for VISIBLE SIGNS. The LM2577-T12 (switching > voltage regulator in TO-220 package) next to the AUI port becomes TERRIBLY hot > even after < 10 minutes of running the printer. > I assume it's used to generate the voltage the Transceiver uses? But the > power light (on the transceiver) is on as long as the printer is... That may not be a problem. The external transceiver (and the internal one) use an isolated supply to drive the electronics on the cable side. Those little converters sometimes get warm. I'm not familiar with that specific chip, though. It probably shouldn't get very hot. > And even worse...the DATA LED does no longer blink when there's traffic on > the Ethernet... Oh dear, a bad sign, I fear. -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager University of York From pete at dunnington.u-net.com Thu Nov 8 14:26:06 2001 From: pete at dunnington.u-net.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:43 2005 Subject: Refilling Toner Carts (was RE: Rubber Restorer...) In-Reply-To: Douglas Quebbeman "RE: Refilling Toner Carts (was RE: Rubber Restorer...)" (Nov 8, 11:56) References: <7A9BACCEF0171D4FB77019F5104CDD3722588F@jeffserver.tegjeff.com> Message-ID: <10111082026.ZM5034@mindy.dunnington.u-net.com> On Nov 8, 11:56, Douglas Quebbeman wrote: > > > One possible problem, Sodium Hydroxide < .5% could be damaging and > > > corrosive to metalic parts. > > > > About the only common material that sodium hydroxide will attack is > > aluminium, and then only when concentrated or exposure is reasonably long; > > it has no effect on copper, steel, etc. > > Yeah, I've relied on this as a way to make satin-finish aluminum > front panels for equipment. As the reaction progresses, the NAO2 (?) > solution has to be preiodlically replaced. It generally took me about > two days to get the desired look. Sounds about right. Depends on the concentration and temperature, of course, and also the fact that NaOH readily absorbs CO2 from the atmosphere, turning into Na2CO3 (sodium carbonate, washing soda) which doesn't have much effect on aluminium. In fact, NaOH and KOH are so good at that, that they're used in atmospheric scrubbers. -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager University of York From pete at dunnington.u-net.com Thu Nov 8 16:19:11 2001 From: pete at dunnington.u-net.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:43 2005 Subject: food In-Reply-To: Mike Ford "Re: food" (Nov 8, 11:28) References: Message-ID: <10111082219.ZM5240@mindy.dunnington.u-net.com> On Nov 8, 11:28, Mike Ford wrote: > >In some respects it's about getting people to "try" something they aren't > >accustomed to eating, just like when I was trying to train my kids. It's > >really > > I gotta say though this GREEN ketchup Heinz is pushing along with the Shrek > Video really barfs me out. Nah, that's quite cool. My nieces won't eat it, though. -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager University of York From pete at dunnington.u-net.com Thu Nov 8 20:03:07 2001 From: pete at dunnington.u-net.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:43 2005 Subject: KM11 and RK11-D In-Reply-To: Tom Uban "Re: KM11 and RK11-D" (Nov 7, 16:58) References: <3.0.5.32.20011107092259.008e3210@ubanproductions.com> <3.0.5.32.20011107165839.008fbaa0@ubanproductions.com> Message-ID: <10111090203.ZM5597@mindy.dunnington.u-net.com> On Nov 7, 16:58, Tom Uban wrote: > Yes, I have the overlay. I guess that it doesn't allow quite the level of > control that is provided for CPU debug. It looks like it just shows the > state of a number of signals and the switches don't do much of anything, > at least based on the labeling. I've been playing with my own RK11-D and a pair of RK05s this evening, so I had the RK05 Maintenance Manual and the RK11-D Manual handy. According to those, the KM11 switches don't do anything on an RK11-D. -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager University of York From greg at cosc.canterbury.ac.nz Thu Nov 8 20:07:40 2001 From: greg at cosc.canterbury.ac.nz (Greg Ewing) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:43 2005 Subject: OT: food In-Reply-To: <513.712T400T14253533optimus@canit.se> Message-ID: <200111090207.PAA12181@s454.cosc.canterbury.ac.nz> Iggy Drougge : > ISTR that the main ingredients in the emergency ration bars which > soldiers are equipped with is exactly salt, fat and sugar. It > obviously not that bad if you're otherwise starving. Presumably, for soldiers in the field, long term life expectancy is not a major consideration... From jhellige at earthlink.net Thu Nov 8 20:10:11 2001 From: jhellige at earthlink.net (Jeff Hellige) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:43 2005 Subject: Refilling Toner Carts (was RE: Rubber Restorer...) In-Reply-To: <20011108235456.LTQQ21184.femail33.sdc1.sfba.home.com@BENCHBOX> References: <20011108235456.LTQQ21184.femail33.sdc1.sfba.home.com@BENCHBOX> Message-ID: >I don't know what is in it, but there used to be a spray surface cleaner >called Fantastik you could buy at any grocery store. I wouln't have >believed it if I hadn't seen it, but in grade-school my teacher used it to >remove the paint lines from our concrete basketball court. > >From that experience, I wouldn't leave Fantastik to soak very long on >**any** surface you care about...... That was it's main selling point though, and what was stressed in commercials for it. I've seen people use the military version of 'Kool-aid' to clean vent screens and such and I used to use colas, such as Coke and Pepsi, to remove rust from nuts and bolts. Jeff -- Home of the TRS-80 Model 2000 FAQ File http://www.cchaven.com http://www.geocities.com/siliconvalley/lakes/6757 From chobbs at socal.rr.com Thu Nov 8 20:36:37 2001 From: chobbs at socal.rr.com (charles hobbs) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:43 2005 Subject: Molecular transistors... References: <200111090207.PAA12181@s454.cosc.canterbury.ac.nz> Message-ID: <3BEB4134.6A55C2DA@socal.rr.com> http://www.cnn.com/2001/TECH/ptech/11/08/tiny.transistors.ap/index.html WASHINGTON (AP) -- When two Bell Labs scientists invented the transistor in 1947, it was as tall as the face of a wristwatch. Now, another Bell team has made a transistor from a single molecule -- small enough to fit about 10 million on the head of a pin. This could get interesting, folks... From mcclure3 at home.com Thu Nov 8 20:54:12 2001 From: mcclure3 at home.com (Don McClure) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:45 2005 Subject: Cable and connector source In-Reply-To: <200111082255.QAA85033@opal.tseinc.com> Message-ID: Yes, I am learning to hate them too. I ruined two mini-DINs when trying to solder them up. I'm going to try again using crimp connectors instead, when I locate some. And keeping the cable connections straight makes my brain hurt. Anybody have a Personal Iris 4D/2x keyboard cable lying around? DB9M to 6 pin mini-DIN male. Ouch. Don McClure Bel Air, MD > I hate mini-DINs. They're OK for portable systems, but they don't belong on > desktops or anything else. They're hellish to solder. And it gets even more > stupid when they're used for AC adaptors. It's just a way to force the user > into using only branded transformers. Especially if they're only using two > pins on the mini-DIN. > > - -- > En ligne avec Thor 2.6a. > > Ky?suke: Jag heter Kurre, Kurre Carlsson! > Jag: Det heter du inte alls! From ernestls at home.com Thu Nov 8 21:21:57 2001 From: ernestls at home.com (Ernest) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:47 2005 Subject: Boxed Basis 108 system in the mail today. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: I just received a boxed Basis 108 today, with user manuals, system disks, schematics, and a binder full of newsletters from the B.U.G. (Basis User Group.) If you have a Basis 108, and need a copy of the system disks or user manuals, let me know. I'll make copies for you. E. From optimus at canit.se Thu Nov 8 19:29:52 2001 From: optimus at canit.se (Iggy Drougge) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:47 2005 Subject: 8 inch floppy drives In-Reply-To: <10111082010.ZM5021@mindy.dunnington.u-net.com> Message-ID: <512.713T2600T1495729optimus@canit.se> Pete Turnbull skrev: >Eh? Normally PAL is the higher resolution, 625 vertical lines rather than >525, and 6.5MHz bandwidth rather than whatever NTSC normally uses >(5.something, IIRC). Didn't the UK switch to 650 line PAL in the late sixties? -- En ligne avec Thor 2.6a. - Lupin! Vart ska du? - Tar v?gen ?ver berget f?ljer gr?nsen s? kommer vi till havet. - Det ?r ju mer ?n 100 km. - Det ?r v?l ingenting. Jag tillh?r v?rldseliten jag. Lupin III den otrolige (Lupin III vs. fukusei ningen), TMS 1978 From vze2wsvr at verizon.net Thu Nov 8 21:30:40 2001 From: vze2wsvr at verizon.net (Eric Chomko) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:47 2005 Subject: food References: Message-ID: <3BEB4DE0.51669976@mail.verizon.net> Mike Ford wrote: > >In some respects it's about getting people to "try" something they aren't > >accustomed to eating, just like when I was trying to train my kids. It's > >really > > I gotta say though this GREEN ketchup Heinz is pushing along with the Shrek > Video really barfs me out. Oh yes! My daughter (6 1/2) just had to have green ketchup. What utter crap. The stuff is lousy. I prefer the mild hot sauce Bandido of the same color myself. Eric From vze2wsvr at verizon.net Thu Nov 8 21:36:04 2001 From: vze2wsvr at verizon.net (Eric Chomko) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:47 2005 Subject: Apple Floppy Drives (was: More Apple Pimpers) References: Message-ID: <3BEB4F24.48411A30@mail.verizon.net> Don Maslin wrote: > On Thu, 8 Nov 2001, Eric Chomko wrote: > > > Don Maslin wrote: > > > > > On Wed, 7 Nov 2001, Eric Chomko wrote: > > > > > > > Allison wrote: > > > > > > > > > General comment, > > > > > > > > > > Most 8" systems were expected be and behaved reliably and have > > > > > at least 250k of space. > > > > > > > > > > Most 5.25" systems could be reliable but, often weren't. I'll restrict > > > > > comments to 5.25" for the later reason. > > > > > > > > > > Most of the complaints I've had with disk systems be they Apple or not > > > > > were often in this order. > > > > > > > > > > 1- Drives (SA400 was pure garbage!!!) > > > > > > > > Whoa! I bought my Smoke Signal Broadcasting disk system back in 1978 > > > > with two SA400 drives. I added a third drive in the late 80s. To this day > > > > all three drives work great. I did switch drives 0 and 2 to allow the most > > > > used drive to get less use and the newest drive to become the main drive. > > > > But, I'd hardly call a disk drive "pure garbage" that has lasted for 12 and > > > > 23 years! And that is in lieu of the fact that they had a 5 year life > > > > expectency. > > > > > > > > my 2 cents... > > > > > > And worth every penny of it :) But the fact is, that despite your > > > fortunate experience, the spiral cam head positioner was probably the > > > worst idea since the stone wheel! > > > - don > > > > > > > Good point! But doesn't that make it interesting now in 2001? I mean the slide > > rule > > compared to the electronic caluclator makes the slide rule seem like a lousy design. > > > > Aren't slide rules interesting today. > > > > Did an alternative exist, in 1974, to the spiral cam head positioner? > > > > Eric > > > > Certainly! Both the lead screw and the capstan/split-band positioners > were available. Yes, I got those from earlier posts. Cost differntial? Eric > > - don From spc at conman.org Thu Nov 8 21:34:42 2001 From: spc at conman.org (Sean 'Captain Napalm' Conner) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:47 2005 Subject: Missing was Re: OS9 or Flex09 on 8" disk needed In-Reply-To: <402.713T1850T325563optimus@canit.se> from "Iggy Drougge" at Nov 09, 2001 12:32:37 AM Message-ID: <200111090334.WAA13781@conman.org> It was thus said that the Great Iggy Drougge once stated: > > Alexander Schreiber skrev: > > >> I tend to use wget. Runs on everything. The only problem is, it's a GNU > >> program, and that's a big problem. > > >Why would that be a problem? I tend to use wget a lot and it does a > >pretty good job. > > The problem with GNU programs is that they're so difficult to use. I would't say difficult---lots of options yes, but difficult? I guess if you don't have the man page or any documentation then yes, it might be difficult to use but I've never had any real problem with using GNU stuff. -spc (Now compiling the GNU C compiler ... that can be scary ... ) From vze2wsvr at verizon.net Thu Nov 8 21:42:30 2001 From: vze2wsvr at verizon.net (Eric Chomko) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:47 2005 Subject: Apple Floppy Drives (was: More Apple Pimpers) References: Message-ID: <3BEB50A6.DBD02784@mail.verizon.net> One Without Reason wrote: > > > Good point! But doesn't that make it interesting now in 2001? I mean the slide > > > rule > > > compared to the electronic caluclator makes the slide rule seem like a lousy design. > > > > > > Aren't slide rules interesting today. > > I can do a lot of things faster on a slide rule than an electronic > calculator. > But I bet that you can say that you are also more unique than the average person as well. Tell me I'm wrong! Eric > > Peace... Sridhar From vze2wsvr at verizon.net Thu Nov 8 21:44:38 2001 From: vze2wsvr at verizon.net (Eric Chomko) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:47 2005 Subject: Apple Floppy Drives (was: More Apple Pimpers) References: Message-ID: <3BEB5126.9B85878A@mail.verizon.net> "Feldman, Robert" wrote: > Especially if the batteries in the calculator are dead ;) > Get a solar powered calculator! > > (BTW, my 14-year old son has three slide rules and was quite interested in > the giant one up on the wall in a hall at his high school.) > Appreciation for lost art is the heart and soul of this list! Eric > > -----Original Message----- > From: One Without Reason [mailto:vance@ikickass.org] > Sent: Thursday, November 08, 2001 2:41 PM > To: Classic Computers Mailing List > Subject: Re: Apple Floppy Drives (was: More Apple Pimpers) > > > > Good point! But doesn't that make it interesting now in 2001? I mean > the slide > > > rule > > > compared to the electronic caluclator makes the slide rule seem like a > lousy design. > > > > > > Aren't slide rules interesting today. > > I can do a lot of things faster on a slide rule than an electronic > calculator. > > Peace... Sridhar From spectre at stockholm.ptloma.edu Thu Nov 8 21:48:03 2001 From: spectre at stockholm.ptloma.edu (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:47 2005 Subject: food In-Reply-To: <7A9BACCEF0171D4FB77019F5104CDD37225894@jeffserver.tegjeff.com> from Douglas Quebbeman at "Nov 8, 1 05:39:10 pm" Message-ID: <200111090348.TAA07914@stockholm.ptloma.edu> > > Find a way to get me a jar or two, and I'll forgive that > > "indigenous" remark... > > I could swear I've seen Nutella at Wal-Mart... I was there yesterday and I remember it there too. -- ----------------------------- personal page: http://www.armory.com/~spectre/ -- Cameron Kaiser, Point Loma Nazarene University * ckaiser@stockholm.ptloma.edu -- Once, adv.: Enough. -- Ambrose Bierce, "The Devil's Dictionary" ------------ From vze2wsvr at verizon.net Thu Nov 8 21:45:55 2001 From: vze2wsvr at verizon.net (Eric Chomko) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:47 2005 Subject: head-positioners - (was Apple Floppy Drives (was: More Apple Pimpers)) References: <003601c1689b$84ec9000$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> Message-ID: <3BEB5173.696557B4@mail.verizon.net> Richard Erlacher wrote: > Yes, and the Siemens drive with the lead screw looked VERY much like the > Micopolis drive, IIRC. The split-band actuator (tendon drive) was eventually > found to be the best tradeoff between cost, precision, reliability, and > performance. > Wasn't the Osborne I floppies Siemens? Eric > > I don't think I ever owned a minifloppy drive with a lead screw, but was quite > surprised to find it in the Siemens tech manual. > > Dick > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Fred Cisin (XenoSoft)" > To: > Sent: Thursday, November 08, 2001 10:45 AM > Subject: Re:head-positioners - (was Apple Floppy Drives (was: More Apple > Pimpers)) > > > Micropolis was one of the only ones to use a helical lead screw positioner > > for a 5.25" floppy. VERY SLOW. They also made a 100TPI (not 96) drive. > > Starting with the MPI B51, most drives went to a split band positioner. > > In addition to the spiral groove positioner, the SA400 was 35 track, > > whereas all others that followed were 40 track. > > > > > > On Thu, 8 Nov 2001, Richard Erlacher wrote: > > > > > That spiral cam was an attempt to reduce price and mass, I suppose. Like > the > > > stone wheel, I imagine it was better than SOME of the other options > available at > > > the time, in one respect or another. > > > > > > I don't remember at all (go figure!) what options there were at the time, > short > > > of the lead-screw that was used on 8" drives, for moving the heads. I've > got a > > > few pictures of Siemens mini-drives (5-1/4") that use lead screws, but I > don't > > > remember other vendors using them. Did Shugart make a minifloppy with a > lead > > > screw? The old BASF drives that I've cussed from time to time for their > > > fragility at the door latch used that spiral cam arrangement. It was > > > interesting, and, if you worked at it, you could foul it up, since it was > > > readily accessible. Every other scheme I remember from that period used a > > > tendon drive, as did the DS 8" drives, other than Siemens'. > > > > > What do you remember? > > More than I care to. > > > > From spectre at stockholm.ptloma.edu Thu Nov 8 21:50:50 2001 From: spectre at stockholm.ptloma.edu (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:47 2005 Subject: Rubber Restorer... In-Reply-To: <454.712T450T12824371optimus@canit.se> from Iggy Drougge at "Nov 8, 1 09:22:09 pm" Message-ID: <200111090350.TAA07456@stockholm.ptloma.edu> > >I'm personally waiting for a major appliance (microwave, refrigerator, > >etc.) to come with the warning "Do Not Lick". I in-fact want to get > >a roll of 5-7cm round stickers with the "not" logo over a protruding > >tongue (like the one on the cover of The Rolling Stones "Tattoo You"). > >I expect them to end up in interesting places. > > Before I'm tempted to actually try licking the fridge, why shouldn't I? Dunno about yours, but mine is filthy, especially the coils. -- ----------------------------- personal page: http://www.armory.com/~spectre/ -- Cameron Kaiser, Point Loma Nazarene University * ckaiser@stockholm.ptloma.edu -- Let us live! Let us love! Let us share our darkest secrets! ... you first. - From spectre at stockholm.ptloma.edu Thu Nov 8 21:56:28 2001 From: spectre at stockholm.ptloma.edu (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:47 2005 Subject: food In-Reply-To: from Mike Ford at "Nov 8, 1 11:28:43 am" Message-ID: <200111090356.TAA03658@stockholm.ptloma.edu> > >In some respects it's about getting people to "try" something they aren't > >accustomed to eating, just like when I was trying to train my kids. It's > >really > > I gotta say though this GREEN ketchup Heinz is pushing along with the Shrek > Video really barfs me out. It weirds me out as well. There was some study anecdotally mentioned in one of those old Time-Life book series about an experiment where researchers served a control panel gourmet food under standard lighting, and another panel where the same meal was served under lighting that made the various foods weird or flaring colours, like green steak, etc. Despite being the same food and flavour, several on the 'altered lighting' panel got quite ill. -- ----------------------------- personal page: http://www.armory.com/~spectre/ -- Cameron Kaiser, Point Loma Nazarene University * ckaiser@stockholm.ptloma.edu -- Any clod can have the facts, but having an opinion is an art. -- C. McCabe - From vze2wsvr at verizon.net Thu Nov 8 21:53:16 2001 From: vze2wsvr at verizon.net (Eric Chomko) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:47 2005 Subject: Apple Floppy Drives (was: More Apple Pimpers) References: Message-ID: <3BEB532C.DCBF5707@mail.verizon.net> Tony Duell wrote: > > I can do a lot of things faster on a slide rule than an electronic > > calculator. > > A few years ago (but long after electronic calculators were common), a > student asked me for help calculating the resistor values in a potential > divider. I asked him for a calculator, and he, intending to confuse me, > handed me a slide rule To which you should have responded: Bad Boys Rape Our Young Girls But Viloet Gave Willingly My apologies to all women, but that little phrase is the best way to remember the resister code: BBROYGBVGW As in: black, brown, red, orange, yellow, green, blue, violet, gray, white Eric > > > (Lesson 1 : Don't try to confuse me with old calculating devices. It > won't work!). > > I then showed him how the slide rule was actually _more_ use for this > problem than a calculator. I just set the ratio of the resistors on it > (it was something simple like 1:2.5) and then slid the cursor along > looking for places where prefered valuse of resistors were almost lined > up. The closer they were, the better the choice. It took a few seconds to > find a pair of resistors that were close enough to work. > > (Lesson 2 : Because a device is old, and has been replaced for many > applications doesn't mean that the device is useless for all applications) > > I now want a slide rule with at least the E24 series marked as dots on > the scales. It would be very useful for this sort of problem. > > -tony From vze2wsvr at verizon.net Thu Nov 8 22:07:55 2001 From: vze2wsvr at verizon.net (Eric Chomko) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:48 2005 Subject: OT - Re: food References: <2806.712T2400T14376513optimus@canit.se> Message-ID: <3BEB569B.72926E50@mail.verizon.net> Iggy Drougge wrote: > Eric Chomko skrev: > > >Iggy Drougge wrote: > > >> I find it somewhat interesting how Americans define "foreign". Doesn't that > >> require something "indigenous"? =) > > >Ha! We are accused of being "typical" or "ugly". Those comments make us > >indigenous. > >(And they say that WE have double standards!) > > It's such a mess, really. What I did find funny was how Americans define > what's foreign, though. Americans are traditionally immigrants, after all. > Yes we are. And? > > >> I can't say that I know much about American cousine, save for hamburgers, > >> but there is a shop in Stockholm which specialises in American food, and I > >> must say that the general impression I've got is that it's absolutely > >> deranged. > > >But guess what? I can go to any large city and even smaller ones and get: > >Chinese, Korean, Thai, Indian, Mexican, Greek, Italian, Jewish, African (and > >others) food. > >In fact, all those and more are all within an hour of my house, with many > >choices of many. What I lack is good German food nearby, but that is another > >story. > > >Can you get that variety where you live? > > Certainly. And Mongolian BBQ, too. =) > I can walk to one. > There is a great kiosk with German sausages, too. I don't know much about > German food, though. When I was on holidays in Germany, all I ate was kebab > and Chinese food. > But German kebabs are different. They're made by Turks, and called "kebap". > They often contain chicken. > Not German. What beer did they serve? > > >> Two examples: Mustard and mayonnaise mixed into one bottle. Smoke essence, > >> added to food in order to get a "grilled" quality. > >> And everything is very colourful. > >> Oh, and then there's that marshmallow butter, which I think you're supposed > >> to have on your sandwich. Makes Nutella seem like a wholesome product. =) > > >Sounds like Japanese (oops, forgot to add that to my list above) steak house > >food. > >IOW, authenitic Japanese food is not steak house food, its an > >American-influenced version of Japanese food. Authentic Japanese food is > >sushi, sashimi, sukiaki, etc. > > I know all about Japanese food (I'm a Japanese student), but what is Japanese > steakhouse? Teppanyaki? Teriyaki? Is it good? I really like teriyaki sauce. > Yes, it is good, but not authetic. I understand that the Japenese actually like it now! > > >It sounds like what they are passing off as "American food" is a euphemism > >for "weird food". > > I think that's the main selling point, too. My family loves it. > Come to the US and let me know if you can get to DC. I'll take you out (my treat!) We'll hit an eatery. Guaranteed to please all. > I often eat a soup called "Americana", and that seems a lot more wholesome, > like a minestrone, and no marshmallow in sight. > I prefer Maryland Crab Soup, homemade. Eric > > -- > En ligne avec Thor 2.6a. > > But a graphical client/server model that slices the interface down some > arbitrary middle is like Solomon following through with his child-sharing > strategy. The legs, heart, and left eye end up on the server, the arms and > lungs go to the client, the head is left rolling around on the floor, and > blood spurts everywhere. > Don Hopkins - The Unix hater's handbook; The X-Windows disaster From mhstein at usa.net Thu Nov 8 22:13:56 2001 From: mhstein at usa.net (M H Stein) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:48 2005 Subject: Cromemco landmarks Message-ID: <01C168AB.0CDD2380@mse-d03> ------------Original Message------------- Date: Thu, 8 Nov 2001 08:27:15 -0500 From: "Allison" Subject: Re: Cromemco landmarks >-The first Z-80 micro Nope. >-The first micro with a Winchester HD Nope. >-The first micro color graphics system Yes and significant. >-The first micro implementation of I/O channel processors Nope, IMSAI had a 8080 in the FDC. >-The first micro to boot from ROM without front panel switches Nope, NS* and a slew of others. First was likely the Poly 88. >-The first micro with integrated floppy disks Not hardly. Nice claims, put dates and supporting evidence up. Cromemco is best known for The Dazzler color display, RF tight systems in solid boxes and generally good systems. Allison ----------------------- Well, as I said, I'm only quoting their literature; interesting facts or amusing hyperbole, your choice. But they do indeed quite specifically make those claims, after this introduction: - "All of us who use Cromemco systems have, at one time or another, had to deal with the situation where someone asks you what kind of computer you have, and when you tell them you hear, "CROMEMCO? Never heard of them." Well, next time you hear that you can rattle off a few of the following first-time technical contributions that Cromemco has made to the microcomputer industry:"... - Having heard the "Never heard of them" myself often enough, even on this august forum, I thought I'd share the list with you. Quibble over details if you will, but to the best of my knowledge they were one of the few companies whose micros were credible enough to seriously compete with the minis of the day in large government & institutional settings. As you say, all they seem to be known for is the dazzler and the Sherman-tank-grade archaic 16 K Z-2's & CS3's, not the "big iron" of later years or the various innovations along the way, and that was my point, that there was more to Cromemco than most people seem to be aware of. But AFAIK, last I heard Harry Garland (one of the founders) is still around doing research for Canon, if you want to email & ask him to back up their claims... Or, since you're challenging, why not put up some dates & supporting evidence yourself? I'm not arguing or flaming, but I assume that for you to say 'Nope' so authoritatively & so often you must have some supporting facts of your own, which would be interesting indeed. Who did market a commercial micro with an integrated Winchester before Cromemco in '79, for example? If ads are any indication, at the time Cromemco announced the Z-2H the only other HD's I can find in my old Bytes is Corvus's add-on external version, and Ohio's Challenger and various add-on drives using cartridge modules, not Winchesters, although Altos announced one a few months after Cromemco. As to the performance figures vs. DEC, they were taken from Datamation & Unix World magazines and a UNIX USENET study, this being in late 1986. Interestingly enough, Dhrystone benchmarks are: Cromix CS420: 3703 VAX11/785 2136 VAX11/780 1662 MicroVAX-II 1612 VAX11/750 1091 IBM RT 1333 While the Whetstone scores make the MicroVAX look a lot better: CS420 1,050,000 MicroVAX II 877,000 VAX11/780 476,000 IBM RT 200,000 Cromemco Z80 7,000 Cromemco never claimed to be the fastest, just that they, using the S-100 bus, "... can clearly outperform even some of the most capable mini-computers, and do so at a price/performance point unequalled by any other technology in the industry." How much did a '780 or '785 and a MicroVAX cost in '86? I'll be the first to admit that I know zip about DEC and the only other literature I had with prices just went off to Norm in SF (has it arrived yet, Norm?) And I think they meant I/O channel processors in the mini/mainframe sense, not an intelligent(?) floppy drive; there's something categorically different between an IOP CBUS I/O controller and a PET FDD, even with its 2 CPU's... Raises an interesting point though; what is considered an authoritative source for who did what and when, if we don't trust ads or company literature, especially as it becomes scarcer & memories begin to fade? Certainly is a lot of incorrect information on the various 'Web sites purporting to be accurate time lines, although if that can be trusted the Poly88 came out in '77 while the Cromemco was definitely around at least in '76... And I swore I'd never get drawn into one of these discussions :)... leave it with ya... m From mcguire at neurotica.com Thu Nov 8 22:31:47 2001 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:48 2005 Subject: Boxed Basis 108 system in the mail today. In-Reply-To: Boxed Basis 108 system in the mail today. (Ernest) References: Message-ID: <15339.23603.124498.98031@phaduka.neurotica.com> On November 8, Ernest wrote: > I just received a boxed Basis 108 today, with user manuals, system disks, > schematics, and a binder full of newsletters from the B.U.G. (Basis User > Group.) If you have a Basis 108, and need a copy of the system disks or user > manuals, let me know. I'll make copies for you. I have never heard of a Basis 108. What is it? -Dave -- Dave McGuire St. Petersburg, FL From mcguire at neurotica.com Thu Nov 8 22:42:31 2001 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:48 2005 Subject: OT - Re: food In-Reply-To: Re: OT - Re: food (Iggy Drougge) References: <3BEAE0DA.4EC506A6@verizon.net> <2806.712T2400T14376513optimus@canit.se> Message-ID: <15339.24247.674216.868537@phaduka.neurotica.com> On November 8, Iggy Drougge wrote: > It's such a mess, really. What I did find funny was how Americans define > what's foreign, though. Americans are traditionally immigrants, after all. My ancestors were immigrants. So far back that I don't even know their names. If all Americans are immigrants just because a lot of people immigrated to this country, then it seems to me that it should be correct to consider anyone else in the world an immigrant if anyone from any other country ever settled in their country of origin. -Dave -- Dave McGuire St. Petersburg, FL From cisin at xenosoft.com Thu Nov 8 22:56:13 2001 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin (XenoSoft)) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:48 2005 Subject: Boxed Basis 108 system in the mail today. In-Reply-To: <15339.23603.124498.98031@phaduka.neurotica.com> Message-ID: > I have never heard of a Basis 108. What is it? A computer whose disk drives work reliably for Sellam, and unreliably for Dick. From fernande at internet1.net Thu Nov 8 23:28:54 2001 From: fernande at internet1.net (Chad Fernandez) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:48 2005 Subject: OT: food References: <9011A52E011ED311B4280004AC1BA61501467263@yalepress3.unipress.yale.edu> <006401c1689f$e705f2a0$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> Message-ID: <3BEB6996.277A6712@internet1.net> Hmmm, I noticed that there fries had changed lately. I thought that they just cheapened up on them. I don't think that they are as good as they used to be. Chad Fernandez Michigan, USA Richard Erlacher wrote: > > McDonalds puts sugar in their french fries, I recently head on NPR. Apparently > their sales increased slightly when they started doing that. It's consistent > with their tendency to limit our diet to salt, fat, and sugar. In reality, I > guess we do it to ourselves, since we don't have to eat there. The only meal I > occasionally take at the Golden Arches, is breakfast, since they do, oddly > enough, have pretty passable coffee. > > Dick From fernande at internet1.net Thu Nov 8 23:31:43 2001 From: fernande at internet1.net (Chad Fernandez) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:48 2005 Subject: OT: food References: <9011A52E011ED311B4280004AC1BA61501467263@yalepress3.unipress.yale.edu> <006401c1689f$e705f2a0$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> <15339.894.244463.364550@phaduka.neurotica.com> Message-ID: <3BEB6A3F.89487114@internet1.net> Dave, Go to Arby's There Jalapeno Poppers are better..... they use whole Jalapenos, not chopped up pieces. Chad Fernandez Michigan, USA Dave McGuire wrote: > Remember...fat means flavor! ;) > > I must admit...I do enjoy a McD's cheeseburger and some fries once > in a while. And the [now discontinued] Jalapeno Poppers from Burger > King were *really* tasty. Though I'm not supposed to have quite that > much salt due to high blood pressure.. :-( > > -Dave From ernestls at home.com Thu Nov 8 23:36:54 2001 From: ernestls at home.com (Ernest) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:48 2005 Subject: Boxed Basis 108 system in the mail today. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-classiccmp@classiccmp.org > [mailto:owner-classiccmp@classiccmp.org]On Behalf Of Fred Cisin > (XenoSoft) > Sent: Thursday, November 08, 2001 8:56 PM > To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org > Subject: Re: Boxed Basis 108 system in the mail today. > > > > I have never heard of a Basis 108. What is it? > > A computer whose disk drives work reliably for Sellam, and unreliably for > Dick. Well, yes it is that. The Basis 108 is a very cool Apple II clone (1982.) It has a heavy cast alluminum case, and the floppy drives are built in, kind of like the old IBM 5150 (same general size and shape.) They aren't the easiest clones to find. In fact, I am curious to know if anyone on the list has one. Mine has some weird hacks that I'm curious about. For instance, there is what looks like a RAM socket, with a homemade I/O cable going from this socket to a 25pin male plug on the back of the machine. The socket on the board is right in the middle of a bunch of other ram chips, and it isn't the joystick socket. Any ideas? I'll have to take a look at the schematics and see if I can figure out what is supposed to go there. E. From fernande at internet1.net Thu Nov 8 23:38:56 2001 From: fernande at internet1.net (Chad Fernandez) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:48 2005 Subject: food References: Message-ID: <3BEB6BF0.7C2780B1@internet1.net> You forgor the 80's..... hamburger chains WITH salad bars! Wendys was the longest running, well into the 90s, but Burger King had one for a short while too, maybe even McDonalds too... I don't recall. Chad Fernandez Michigan, USA Mike Ford wrote: > Different foods have there times, around the 60s it was "chili bowl" > joints, 70s salad bars, 80s hamburger chains (that failed to go away). > Whats an orthodox diner meal, lettuce salad, meat and potatoes with gravy, > some kind of veggie, and a slice of pie. How about a guess on the top ten > favorite foods in USA (by meals eaten)? From fernande at internet1.net Thu Nov 8 23:46:25 2001 From: fernande at internet1.net (Chad Fernandez) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:48 2005 Subject: food References: <3BE76EE1.D6F3898D@internet1.net> <5.1.0.14.2.20011108163804.00a04540@mail.30below.com> Message-ID: <3BEB6DB1.E0B863E9@internet1.net> >From what I hear, the Indians most likely crossed the Bearing Straights (spelling?), so your an immigrant too :-) We all came from somewhere else originally, whether you believe we came from Adam and Eve, or monkeys. My favorite Indian food is Corn Bread, yum yum, although, I suppose that what my mother makes, probably isn't exactly what the Indians made/make. Chad Fernandez Michigan, USA Roger Merchberger wrote: > Hmmm... not sure if I should be offended by this... Despite the last name > of "Merchberger" a healthy portion of my heritage is descended from exactly > those who were here before the europeans arrived... > > American Indians, aboriginals, "red man", however you want to put it - > there's a great deal in America that's indigenous, and you'd be amazed with > the variety & quality of food that's available at a decent-sized American > Indian pow-wow. From fmc at reanimators.org Thu Nov 8 23:36:42 2001 From: fmc at reanimators.org (Frank McConnell) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:48 2005 Subject: Apple Floppy Drives (was: More Apple Pimpers) In-Reply-To: "Fred Cisin's message of "Thu, 8 Nov 2001 16:15:31 -0800 (PST)" References: Message-ID: <200111090536.fA95akC04146@daemonweed.reanimators.org> "Fred Cisin (XenoSoft)" wrote: > On Thu, 8 Nov 2001, Feldman, Robert wrote: > > (BTW, my 14-year old son has three slide rules and was quite interested in > > the giant one up on the wall in a hall at his high school.) > > A friend of mine has one of those. I'm envious. All you slide rule fans know about the Oughtred Society, right? Just in case: http://www.oughtred.org/ -Frank McConnell From fernande at internet1.net Thu Nov 8 23:59:18 2001 From: fernande at internet1.net (Chad Fernandez) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:48 2005 Subject: food References: Message-ID: <3BEB70B6.22FF8F50@internet1.net> I have wondered that myself. My father entered the US in 1961, when he was twelve. My Grandparents didn't get here till 1964, However. They came from Cuba, but there heritage goes back to Spain very quickly after that... I don't look like a stereo typical "latino", or even a 1/2 latino. My mothers relatives have been in the US for quite a bit longer. She is a Northern Euro/American-mutt.... German, English, Scotch, Irish, maybe more... who knows what. Some of that side of the family has been researched, but I don't recall specifics.... it's written down somewhere I think. One passenger list of the MayFlower has a family name on it, I recall. I don't know if the passenger list from the Mayflower has been reliably nailed down or not, so it's debatable, if I had a relative on it, I suppose. Chad Fernandez Michigan, USA Chris wrote: > You know, I have always been curious why American Indians are the only > ones that can claim to be "true Americans" (discounting the fact that > "American" can really refer to anyone from North, Central, or South > America... but is commonly used to refer to those from the United States > of America). > > My family has direct ancestry to settlers on some of the first ships (for > instance, I am related to Thomas Greene, the original governor of the > Maryland Colony). My family predates the United States, yet I have very > little American Indian genes in me, so I am always chastised when people > ask me what my heritage is, and I tell them "I am an American". How far > back is one supposed to go to decide their "heritage" 100 years? 200 > years? Why stop, why not go back 1000 years, or 2000, or 10,000... heck, > I guess we should all just say we are from Java... or should we not stop > there.... that's it, from now on, I should tell people I am a proud > Ameobian... or maybe just an Enzymian. :-) > > I stand proud... I am a good old pure bred American mutt! > > -chris > > From fernande at internet1.net Fri Nov 9 00:04:43 2001 From: fernande at internet1.net (Chad Fernandez) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:48 2005 Subject: food References: <20011109002153.NEBI19157.femail30.sdc1.sfba.home.com@BENCHBOX> Message-ID: <3BEB71FB.D74D96DD@internet1.net> Jeff, Where would they find gators? UberTechnoid@home.com wrote: > Some things you don't often see but Cherokee eat often are Venison, > Buffalo, Aligator, Rabbit, snakes, frogs, and just about any bird large > enough to be worth cleaning. Must vary by states. I think one of our local chains had some venison when I worked there in High School(10yrs ago). Buffalo is available sometimes too, I think. Unless it is just Beefalo. > > If you haven't been to your local Indian reservation to dine, I strongly > reccomend you do. There are foods available there that you cannot buy > anywhere else either due to species protection laws or more likely, low > demand outside the reservations and hunting laws which restrict game like > deer etc to your own table and not for sale. > > Regards, > > Jeff Chad Fernandez Michigan, USA From acme_ent at bellsouth.net Fri Nov 9 00:21:09 2001 From: acme_ent at bellsouth.net (Glen Goodwin) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:48 2005 Subject: Osborne floppy drives (was Apple Floppy Drives) Message-ID: <20011109062342.LWES25211.imf17bis.bellsouth.net@thegoodw> > From: Louis Schulman > What about the single board CP/M machines? I have them too. The disk drives on the Osborne were, > based on extensive experience, the least reliable ever made. If one drive could read what another had > written, it was a gift from God. And with the double density upgrade, it was much worse. Really?? The Osborne 1 I got from you works perfectly. I've used it to copy boatloads of disks, and have also used my Kaypro 10 and my Wintel PC to make disks for it, without fail. Glen 0/0 From jss at subatomix.com Fri Nov 9 00:26:37 2001 From: jss at subatomix.com (Jeffrey S. Sharp) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:48 2005 Subject: food In-Reply-To: <01C16816.817D0D30.technos@nerdland.org> Message-ID: <20011109002114.O94841-100000@lepton.subatomix.com> On Thu, 8 Nov 2001, Jim wrote: > Whatever you're eating there is a pure bastardization of what I get > here in Detroit or Kansas City or Des Moines. > > Mmm, greens and a juicy steak burned to a crisp. Yes. Extra well-done -- carbonized. Here in the midwest, everyone eats mustard or barbecue sauce, laughing at the mayo people and their "yankee burgers". My personal favorite burger 1. Texas toast 2. barbecue sauce 3. fried onion ring 4. bacon 5. melted cheddar cheese 6. extra well-done meat patty 7. barbecue sauce 8. Texas toast -- Jeffrey S. Sharp jss@subatomix.com From geoffr at zipcon.net Fri Nov 9 00:38:59 2001 From: geoffr at zipcon.net (Geoff Reed) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:48 2005 Subject: food In-Reply-To: <01C16816.817D0D30.technos@nerdland.org> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20011108223808.0368d540@mail.zipcon.net> At 05:30 AM 11/8/01 -0500, you wrote: >Also, I can assure you that no one uses mayo and mustard "mixed" (same >bottle?), >nor marshmallow "butter"(creme?). Dijonnaise is supposedly a mix of mayo and dijon mustard and comes in a bottle. From geoffr at zipcon.net Fri Nov 9 00:45:21 2001 From: geoffr at zipcon.net (Geoff Reed) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:48 2005 Subject: Alignment Disks In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20011108224433.03697db0@mail.zipcon.net> Does anyone have a source for a 5 1/4 inch alignment disk? I've got a few floppies for my N* that are outta alignment.... From dogas at bellsouth.net Fri Nov 9 00:39:24 2001 From: dogas at bellsouth.net (Mike) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:48 2005 Subject: Classic Gaming Collections References: <20011107192453.70983.qmail@web20108.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <006101c168e9$46a79120$5519d7d1@DOMAIN> From: Ethan Dicks >... (we played a Tank game > to death - first breaking the joysticks (which i fixed as a kid), then > wearing out the fire buttons (which I also replaced), and finally > killing the electronics. Wish I could find another one of those. > Yeah, that two player combat game was fun as hell and mine had a similar maintinence record. Been looking for awhile now too and conclude none survive. Another great game not mentioned yet were the Atari Stunt Cycle and combo consoles. btw: I jumped 37 busses a few weeks ago. Those old games got it ergonomiclly right. :) - Mike: dogas@bellsouth.net From geoffr at zipcon.net Fri Nov 9 00:47:35 2001 From: geoffr at zipcon.net (Geoff Reed) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:48 2005 Subject: food In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20011108163804.00a04540@mail.30below.com> References: <1334.712T1050T5194395optimus@canit.se> <3BE76EE1.D6F3898D@internet1.net> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20011108224644.03690160@mail.zipcon.net> At 04:45 PM 11/8/01 -0500, you wrote: >>Makes Nutella seem like a wholesome product. =) > >At the risk of sounding like Homer Simpson... Oooohh... Nutella... >I've had it once, and that is some *fantastic* stuff... > >*Still* trying to get my uncle to send me some from Deutschland. I ask >only rarely (because I forget to "pester" him) and he forgets to bring >some back when he comes (he usually comes back to the states once or twice >a year...). :-( I get my Nutella here at Fred Meyer or several other local grocery stores.. (in washington) From geoffr at zipcon.net Fri Nov 9 00:50:24 2001 From: geoffr at zipcon.net (Geoff Reed) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:48 2005 Subject: OT: food In-Reply-To: <006401c1689f$e705f2a0$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> References: <9011A52E011ED311B4280004AC1BA61501467263@yalepress3.unipress.yale.edu> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20011108224815.036955a0@mail.zipcon.net> At 02:54 PM 11/8/01 -0700, you wrote: >McDonalds puts sugar in their french fries, I recently head on >NPR. Apparently >their sales increased slightly when they started doing that. It's consistent >with their tendency to limit our diet to salt, fat, and sugar. In reality, I >guess we do it to ourselves, since we don't have to eat there. The only >meal I >occasionally take at the Golden Arches, is breakfast, since they do, oddly >enough, have pretty passable coffee. > >Dick The french fries at MickeyD's are sprayed with a sugar/starch water mix and flash frozen, it helps them get the golden brown color. they are also blanched during the manufacturing process to make them faster cooking in the stores and give the creamy texture inside... (was a mickey-d's manager in a previous incarnation) From dogas at bellsouth.net Fri Nov 9 00:51:09 2001 From: dogas at bellsouth.net (Mike) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:48 2005 Subject: hp 86/87 cp/m Message-ID: <006701c168ea$ea242d80$5519d7d1@DOMAIN> I booted cp/m on my HP-86 with the hp 82900a Aux. Processor cartridge and a few hp 9130a floppy drives. Send an email if you need the OS for a similar setup - Mike: dogas@bellsouth.net From jss at subatomix.com Fri Nov 9 00:59:59 2001 From: jss at subatomix.com (Jeffrey S. Sharp) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:48 2005 Subject: food In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20011109005934.B94841-100000@lepton.subatomix.com> All right, all right. The poor Okie needs an education. What the hell is Nutella? -- Jeffrey S. Sharp jss@subatomix.com From jss at subatomix.com Fri Nov 9 01:06:23 2001 From: jss at subatomix.com (Jeffrey S. Sharp) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:48 2005 Subject: food In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20011109010346.S94841-100000@lepton.subatomix.com> On Thu, 8 Nov 2001, Chris wrote: > My family has direct ancestry to settlers on some of the first ships > [...] How far back is one supposed to go to decide their "heritage" > 100 years? I was born in America. I'm an American. That's how I see it. -- Jeffrey S. Sharp jss@subatomix.com From fernande at internet1.net Fri Nov 9 01:08:45 2001 From: fernande at internet1.net (Chad Fernandez) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:48 2005 Subject: food References: <20011109002114.O94841-100000@lepton.subatomix.com> Message-ID: <3BEB80FD.D9655F3C@internet1.net> I want my burger too well done.... no carbon for me :-) I am a big mustard and BBQ sauce fan, not together, Though :-) A friend of mine and I together, ridicule another friend for his mayonnaise eating habits. The Dude must have extra mayonnaise on his already fried chicken sandwiches, and on burgers.... gross! Mayonnaise burgers, yuck! Anybody go for dill relish along with mustard? I do :-) Chad Fernandez Michigan, USA "Jeffrey S. Sharp" wrote: > Yes. Extra well-done -- carbonized. Here in the midwest, everyone eats > mustard or barbecue sauce, laughing at the mayo people and their "yankee > burgers". > > My personal favorite burger > > 1. Texas toast > 2. barbecue sauce > 3. fried onion ring > 4. bacon > 5. melted cheddar cheese > 6. extra well-done meat patty > 7. barbecue sauce > 8. Texas toast > > -- > Jeffrey S. Sharp > jss@subatomix.com From gwynp at artware.qc.ca Fri Nov 9 01:12:45 2001 From: gwynp at artware.qc.ca (gwynp@artware.qc.ca) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:48 2005 Subject: OT: food In-Reply-To: Message-ID: The topic says "food". I thought food was supposed to keep you alive. But this thread seems to be about foul tasting slow-acting poisons... -Philip From gwynp at artware.qc.ca Fri Nov 9 01:22:30 2001 From: gwynp at artware.qc.ca (gwynp@artware.qc.ca) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:48 2005 Subject: food In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On 08-Nov-2001 Chris wrote: > My family has direct ancestry to settlers on some of the first ships > (for > instance, I am related to Thomas Greene, the original governor of the > Maryland Colony). My family predates the United States, yet I have very > little American Indian genes in me, If your family has been in the americas that long, I'd be stunned if you didn't have any "indian" blood. It would be safer to say "no documented American Indian genes". My grand-father had a family tree drawn up when he joined the Knights of Malta (Soverign and Military Order thereof). Goes back to before the Romans occupied Wales. And the Royal Herald of England's signature to prove it. Eeep! -Philip From sipke at wxs.nl Fri Nov 9 01:59:59 2001 From: sipke at wxs.nl (Sipke de Wal) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:48 2005 Subject: Nuke Redmond! References: <20011109001354.MUSO5981.femail47.sdc1.sfba.home.com@BENCHBOX> Message-ID: <004e01c168f4$87c30b20$030101ac@boll.casema.net> No No NOOOOOOOOO NOOOO!!! Not again! I remember those long nights a half year ago carefully (tediously) deleting the "Nuke Redmond" stuff from my mail archive Grrrrrrrrr! STOP THIS! Sipke de Wal -------------------------------------------------- http://xgistor.ath.cx -------------------------------------------------- ----- Original Message ----- From: To: Sent: Friday, November 09, 2001 1:10 AM Subject: Nuke Redmond! > I know how you all love this thread.... > > Now that the government and MS appear to have come to something of an > agreement, I wondered what the C-Comp folks think? > > For myself I think it is too little too late and does not directly address > actual crimes committed by the heads of the company. One thing it DOES do > is identify MS as having caused actual harm to some companies and provides > those companies recourse through separate lawsuits (ala Sun Microsystems, > IBM, and others). > > Regards, > > Jeff > > -- > ----------------------------------------------------------- > Jeffrey S. Worley > Asheville, NC USA > 828-6984887 > UberTechnoid@Home.com > ----------------------------------------------------------- > From pete at dunnington.u-net.com Fri Nov 9 02:04:55 2001 From: pete at dunnington.u-net.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:48 2005 Subject: Cable and connector source In-Reply-To: Don McClure "Re: Cable and connector source" (Nov 8, 21:54) References: Message-ID: <10111090804.ZM5912@mindy.dunnington.u-net.com> On Nov 8, 21:54, Don McClure wrote: > > [ plain text > Encoded with "quoted-printable" ] : Yes, I am learning to hate them too. I ruined two mini-DINs when trying to > solder them up. I'm going to try again using crimp connectors instead, when > I locate some. I've never seen any crimp miniDINs, so don't wait too long ;-) There's a trick to soldering them. Stick the plug in a socket (or, btter still, a potato) to solder it. It stops things getting too hot and melting. -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager University of York From pete at dunnington.u-net.com Fri Nov 9 02:07:03 2001 From: pete at dunnington.u-net.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:48 2005 Subject: 8 inch floppy drives In-Reply-To: "Iggy Drougge" "Re: 8 inch floppy drives" (Nov 9, 2:29) References: <512.713T2600T1495729optimus@canit.se> Message-ID: <10111090807.ZM5916@mindy.dunnington.u-net.com> On Nov 9, 2:29, Iggy Drougge wrote: > > [ plain text > Encoded with "quoted-printable" ] : Pete Turnbull skrev: > > >Eh? Normally PAL is the higher resolution, 625 vertical lines rather than > >525, and 6.5MHz bandwidth rather than whatever NTSC normally uses > >(5.something, IIRC). > > Didn't the UK switch to 650 line PAL in the late sixties? No, 625. But that was when ew changed from monochrome on VHF (Band I/III) to a colour service on UHF. Same as other parts of Europe (slightly different PAL standard, though). -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager University of York From mhstein at usa.net Fri Nov 9 03:33:36 2001 From: mhstein at usa.net (M H Stein) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:48 2005 Subject: Cromemco landmarks Message-ID: <01C168D7.B46EC460@mse-d03> -------------Original Message------------- Date: Thu, 8 Nov 2001 09:25:22 -0500 (EST) From: One Without Reason Subject: Re: Cromemco landmarks On Thu, 8 Nov 2001, Allison wrote: > From: M H Stein > > >And that in 1987 an XXU equipped system was almost twice as fast as a > >VAX 11/780, which cost over four times as much as the largest Cromemco > >system at the time. > > Sounds impressive...save for in 1987 the VAX11/780 was 9 years old and > out of widespread use!! By 1987 the microVAX had been around for a while, > the midrange VAX was 4x-8x faster than the 780 and easily 1/3 the size! That, and there were much faster machines than VAXen back then. Peace... Sridhar > Cromemco was pretty neat but first, fastest not hardly. > > Allison > > --------------------------- Geez, they didn't say that they were the fastest or that the '780 was the fastest either, so why argue non-points. They were just trying to create awareness among people who thought only minis and mainframes could do 'serious' stuff that S-100 micros had come a long way since the Altair and might do the same job reliably, as fast or faster, and for less money. Judging by the still prevailing notion that they only made a great graphics card and some solid but humdrum systems, they apparently didn't do a very good job... mike From mikeford at socal.rr.com Fri Nov 9 03:20:51 2001 From: mikeford at socal.rr.com (Mike Ford) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:48 2005 Subject: Windows, std OS in Hell In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: >What confused me for a long time, and is currently scheduled for again this >evening, is that Apple printers in many cases are NOT TCP/IP, but ethertalk >(same physical layer, different protocol). Some of the bridges and routers >pass TCP/IP or EtherTalk, but not both, then add to that the native network >blind character of a Wintel box and I am walking in a foggy forest. > >Tonights fun, Apple Laserwriter 16/600 vs W98se, film at 11. I've been digging at this problem for a few weeks, and I almost don't believe the answer. Windows machines apparently won't print directly to network printers. (obviously NT will, ditto maybe w2k, but not 95 or 98). The story I hear is that Microsoft wanted to sell more NT servers, so they pulled the support for standard protocols like LPR (something like that) forcing users to print from a workstation to a NT server, which contains the protocols to talk to the network printers directly. Why did windows users allow MicroSoft to get away with crap like that? BTW the sane alternative appears to be SAMBA, but it still is really wrong. HP has wizard software that gets around this somehow, but Apple can't even remember it was in the printer business 4 years ago. From mikeford at socal.rr.com Fri Nov 9 02:18:25 2001 From: mikeford at socal.rr.com (Mike Ford) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:48 2005 Subject: food In-Reply-To: <15339.151.434217.775949@phaduka.neurotica.com> References: Re: food (Iggy Drougge) <3BE76EE1.D6F3898D@internet1.net> <1334.712T1050T5194395optimus@canit.se> Message-ID: >On November 8, Iggy Drougge wrote: >> Oh, and then there's that marshmallow butter, which I think you're >>supposed to >> have on your sandwich. Makes Nutella seem like a wholesome product. =) > > Ahh, Nutella. Glorious stuff. It was right on the shelf next to the peanut butter in my local store, hazelnut, skim milk, and chocolate, the Favorite of Kobe somebody, $3.99 a jar. From GOOI at oce.nl Fri Nov 9 05:00:51 2001 From: GOOI at oce.nl (Gooijen H) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:48 2005 Subject: blinkenlights for everybody - status update Message-ID: Hi all. I am making progress with the project. The core board is nearly finished, I hope to burn the simple monitor software in EPROM this weekend. See http://home.hetnet.nl/~tshaj/pdpsite/homebrew/startframe.html which is updated. If you wonder "how could he write the software that fast?" : simple; I had that already running in my SpaceShip Simulator. "What's that", you are wondering now... Have a look at http://home.hetnet.nl/~tshaj and click on the starfield picture .... (I am not forbidding you to click on the PDP-11/35 console ...) Have a nice weekend, - Henk. From bpope at wordstock.com Fri Nov 9 07:04:14 2001 From: bpope at wordstock.com (Bryan Pope) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:48 2005 Subject: food In-Reply-To: <01C16816.817D0D30.technos@nerdland.org> from "Jim" at Nov 8, 01 05:30:40 am Message-ID: <200111091304.IAA15620@wordstock.com> > > Mmm, greens and a juicy steak burned to a crisp. > Poor steak... :( *IMHO*, steak is only good served blue rare... Cheers, Bryan From geoffr at zipcon.net Fri Nov 9 07:14:52 2001 From: geoffr at zipcon.net (Geoff Reed) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:48 2005 Subject: food In-Reply-To: <20011109005934.B94841-100000@lepton.subatomix.com> References: Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20011109051323.00a41c90@mail.zipcon.net> Nutella is a Hazelnut and cocoa spread http://www.nutellausa.com/ At 12:59 AM 11/9/01 -0600, you wrote: >All right, all right. The poor Okie needs an education. What the hell is >Nutella? > >-- >Jeffrey S. Sharp >jss@subatomix.com From geoffr at zipcon.net Fri Nov 9 07:19:01 2001 From: geoffr at zipcon.net (Geoff Reed) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:48 2005 Subject: Windows, std OS in Hell In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20011109051629.028980b0@mail.zipcon.net> At 01:20 AM 11/9/01 -0800, you wrote: > >What confused me for a long time, and is currently scheduled for again this > >evening, is that Apple printers in many cases are NOT TCP/IP, but ethertalk > >(same physical layer, different protocol). Some of the bridges and routers > >pass TCP/IP or EtherTalk, but not both, then add to that the native network > >blind character of a Wintel box and I am walking in a foggy forest. > > > >Tonights fun, Apple Laserwriter 16/600 vs W98se, film at 11. > >I've been digging at this problem for a few weeks, and I almost don't >believe the answer. Windows machines apparently won't print directly to >network printers. (obviously NT will, ditto maybe w2k, but not 95 or 98). >The story I hear is that Microsoft wanted to sell more NT servers, so they >pulled the support for standard protocols like LPR (something like that) >forcing users to print from a workstation to a NT server, which contains >the protocols to talk to the network printers directly. Why did windows >users allow MicroSoft to get away with crap like that? > >BTW the sane alternative appears to be SAMBA, but it still is really wrong. >HP has wizard software that gets around this somehow, but Apple can't even >remember it was in the printer business 4 years ago. Nope, WFW3.11, Win95 and Win98 were designed as "small office / home operating systems" and were never given support for LPR protocol as you weren't expected to see that in a SOHO / Workgroup or Home setting. (In yet another previous incarnation I was a support tech for POS at Microsoft [Personal Operating Systems] ) From gehrich at tampabay.rr.com Fri Nov 9 07:19:46 2001 From: gehrich at tampabay.rr.com (Gene Ehrich) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:48 2005 Subject: food In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20011108224644.03690160@mail.zipcon.net> References: <5.1.0.14.2.20011108163804.00a04540@mail.30below.com> <1334.712T1050T5194395optimus@canit.se> <3BE76EE1.D6F3898D@internet1.net> Message-ID: <4.3.2.7.2.20011109081819.00ad6a50@pop3.norton.antivirus> At 10:47 PM 11/8/01 -0800, you wrote: >I get my Nutella here at Fred Meyer or several other local grocery >stores.. (in washington) I just discovered Nutella a few months ago and its great. I read recently that there is more Nutella sold in the world than all other peanut butter type products combined. I love it right out of the jar or on graham crackers. From gehrich at tampabay.rr.com Fri Nov 9 07:21:34 2001 From: gehrich at tampabay.rr.com (Gene Ehrich) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:48 2005 Subject: food In-Reply-To: <20011109005934.B94841-100000@lepton.subatomix.com> References: Message-ID: <4.3.2.7.2.20011109082006.00adba20@pop3.norton.antivirus> At 12:59 AM 11/9/01 -0600, you wrote: >All right, all right. The poor Okie needs an education. What the hell is >Nutella? Peanut butter type product made in Europe with hazelnuts, cocoa and milk. You can get it in most large food stores for about $3 --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- gene@ehrich.com gehrich@tampabay.rr.com P.O. Box 3365 Spring Hill Florida 34611-3365 http://www.voicenet.com/~generic Computer & Video Game Garage Sale From gehrich at tampabay.rr.com Fri Nov 9 07:23:16 2001 From: gehrich at tampabay.rr.com (Gene Ehrich) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:48 2005 Subject: food In-Reply-To: <3BEB80FD.D9655F3C@internet1.net> References: <20011109002114.O94841-100000@lepton.subatomix.com> Message-ID: <4.3.2.7.2.20011109082219.00ad2470@pop3.norton.antivirus> At 02:08 AM 11/9/01 -0500, you wrote: >I want my burger too well done.... no carbon for me :-) I am a big >mustard and BBQ sauce fan, not together, Though :-) Medium rare with fried onions, mustard, catsup on rye bread. From gehrich at tampabay.rr.com Fri Nov 9 07:24:57 2001 From: gehrich at tampabay.rr.com (Gene Ehrich) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:48 2005 Subject: OT: food In-Reply-To: <3BEB6996.277A6712@internet1.net> References: <9011A52E011ED311B4280004AC1BA61501467263@yalepress3.unipress.yale.edu> <006401c1689f$e705f2a0$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> Message-ID: <4.3.2.7.2.20011109082405.00aea690@pop3.norton.antivirus> At 12:28 AM 11/9/01 -0500, you wrote: >Hmmm, I noticed that there fries had changed lately. I thought that >they just cheapened up on them. I don't think that they are as good as >they used to be. The best potatoes in a fast food chain are the potato wedges at KFC. They coat them with old bay seasoning. --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- gene@ehrich.com gehrich@tampabay.rr.com P.O. Box 3365 Spring Hill Florida 34611-3365 http://www.voicenet.com/~generic Computer & Video Game Garage Sale From jss at subatomix.com Fri Nov 9 08:10:27 2001 From: jss at subatomix.com (Jeffrey S. Sharp) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:48 2005 Subject: food In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.2.20011109082006.00adba20@pop3.norton.antivirus> Message-ID: <20011109080934.X96001-100000@lepton.subatomix.com> On Fri, 9 Nov 2001, Gene Ehrich wrote: > At 12:59 AM 11/9/01 -0600, you wrote: > > All right, all right. The poor Okie needs an education. What the > > hell is Nutella? > > Peanut butter type product made in Europe with hazelnuts, cocoa and milk. > > You can get it in most large food stores for about $3 It's probably there; I just don't frequent that part of the grocery store (Wal-Mart). -- Jeffrey S. Sharp jss@subatomix.com From uban at ubanproductions.com Fri Nov 9 08:12:57 2001 From: uban at ubanproductions.com (Tom Uban) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:48 2005 Subject: blinkenlights for everybody - status update In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.20011109081257.008d9e30@ubanproductions.com> Very cool Henk! I wish that I had as much spare time as you seem to have... Thanks for sharing with us! --tom At 12:00 PM 11/9/01 +0100, you wrote: >Hi all. > >I am making progress with the project. >The core board is nearly finished, I hope to burn the simple >monitor software in EPROM this weekend. See > >http://home.hetnet.nl/~tshaj/pdpsite/homebrew/startframe.html > >which is updated. >If you wonder "how could he write the software that fast?" : >simple; I had that already running in my SpaceShip Simulator. >"What's that", you are wondering now... >Have a look at > >http://home.hetnet.nl/~tshaj > >and click on the starfield picture .... >(I am not forbidding you to click on the PDP-11/35 console ...) > >Have a nice weekend, > >- Henk. > > > > From chris at mainecoon.com Fri Nov 9 08:42:10 2001 From: chris at mainecoon.com (Chris Kennedy) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:48 2005 Subject: food In-Reply-To: <200111091304.IAA15620@wordstock.com> Message-ID: Brian Pope wrote: > Poor steak... :( *IMHO*, steak is only good served blue rare... Amen, brother -- or as I put it "still moving under it's own power". -- Chris Kennedy chris@mainecoon.com http://www.mainecoon.com PGP fingerprint: 4E99 10B6 7253 B048 6685 6CBC 55E1 20A3 108D AB97 From pechter at ureach.com Fri Nov 9 08:46:32 2001 From: pechter at ureach.com (Bill Pechter) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:48 2005 Subject: Windows, std OS in Hell Message-ID: <200111091446.JAA06356@stage21.ureach.com> ---- On Fri, 09 Nov 2001, Geoff Reed (geoffr@zipcon.net) wrote: > At 01:20 AM 11/9/01 -0800, you wrote: > > >What confused me for a long time, and is currently scheduled for > again this > > >evening, is that Apple printers in many cases are NOT TCP/IP, but > ethertalk > > >(same physical layer, different protocol). Some of the bridges and > routers > > >pass TCP/IP or EtherTalk, but not both, then add to that the native > network > > >blind character of a Wintel box and I am walking in a foggy forest. > > > > > >Tonights fun, Apple Laserwriter 16/600 vs W98se, film at 11. > > > >I've been digging at this problem for a few weeks, and I almost don't > >believe the answer. Windows machines apparently won't print directly > to > >network printers. (obviously NT will, ditto maybe w2k, but not 95 or > 98). > >The story I hear is that Microsoft wanted to sell more NT servers, so > they > >pulled the support for standard protocols like LPR (something like > that) > >forcing users to print from a workstation to a NT server, which > contains > >the protocols to talk to the network printers directly. Why did > windows > >users allow MicroSoft to get away with crap like that? > > > >BTW the sane alternative appears to be SAMBA, but it still is really > wrong. > >HP has wizard software that gets around this somehow, but Apple can't > even > >remember it was in the printer business 4 years ago. > > Nope, WFW3.11, Win95 and Win98 were designed as "small office / home > operating systems" and were never given support for LPR protocol as you > > weren't expected to see that in a SOHO / Workgroup or Home setting. > (In > yet another previous incarnation I was a support tech for POS at > Microsoft > [Personal Operating Systems] ) > > > > There are lpr drivers available as shareware or commercial products for Win3.x, Win95 and higher. Most of the third party add on printer servers come with an lpr capability for Win9x and there's a shareware one on Simtel for Windows 3.x with a winsock. Lan Workplace also had one from Novell. Bill -- Bill Pechter Systems Administrator uReach Technologies 732-335-5432 (Work) 877-661-2126 (Fax) From Robert_Feldman at jdedwards.com Fri Nov 9 08:42:48 2001 From: Robert_Feldman at jdedwards.com (Feldman, Robert) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:48 2005 Subject: head-positioners - (was Apple Floppy Drives (was: More Apple Pimpers)) Message-ID: The O1 used either Siemens or MPI drives (according to my O1 Technical Manual). The electronics board was, however, replaced with an Osborne-designed board. The Tech Manual has a layout diagram and a schematic for this board. -----Original Message----- From: Eric Chomko [mailto:vze2wsvr@verizon.net] Sent: Thursday, November 08, 2001 9:46 PM To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org Subject: Re: head-positioners - (was Apple Floppy Drives (was: More Apple Pimpers)) Wasn't the Osborne I floppies Siemens? Eric From gehrich at tampabay.rr.com Fri Nov 9 08:59:51 2001 From: gehrich at tampabay.rr.com (Gene Ehrich) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:48 2005 Subject: Nutella In-Reply-To: <20011109080934.X96001-100000@lepton.subatomix.com> References: <4.3.2.7.2.20011109082006.00adba20@pop3.norton.antivirus> Message-ID: <4.3.2.7.2.20011109095919.00acd360@pop3.norton.antivirus> At 08:10 AM 11/9/01 -0600, you wrote: >On Fri, 9 Nov 2001, Gene Ehrich wrote: > > > At 12:59 AM 11/9/01 -0600, you wrote: > > > All right, all right. The poor Okie needs an education. What the > > > hell is Nutella? > > > > Peanut butter type product made in Europe with hazelnuts, cocoa and milk. > > > > You can get it in most large food stores for about $3 > >It's probably there; I just don't frequent that part of the grocery store >(Wal-Mart). If you are a chocolate lover you gotta try it. --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- gene@ehrich.com gehrich@tampabay.rr.com P.O. Box 3365 Spring Hill Florida 34611-3365 http://www.voicenet.com/~generic Computer & Video Game Garage Sale From chris at mainecoon.com Fri Nov 9 09:26:08 2001 From: chris at mainecoon.com (Chris Kennedy) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:48 2005 Subject: Nutella In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.2.20011109095919.00acd360@pop3.norton.antivirus> Message-ID: Gene Ehrich wrote: [Re: Nutella] > If you are a chocolate lover you gotta try it. Yep. Then again my tastes may be suspect. I'm probably one of about six US-born individuals who actually _likes_ Vegemite. On a related topic, does anyone know where I can get proper mustard? I'm talking about traditionally hot, sinus-melting English mustard. I have a friend who brings jars back from Oz, but the supply is spotty at best... -- Chris Kennedy chris@mainecoon.com http://www.mainecoon.com PGP fingerprint: 4E99 10B6 7253 B048 6685 6CBC 55E1 20A3 108D AB97 From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Fri Nov 9 09:32:26 2001 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (Ben Franchuk) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:48 2005 Subject: Slide rules References: <200111090536.fA95akC04146@daemonweed.reanimators.org> Message-ID: <3BEBF70A.59DD80CC@jetnet.ab.ca> Frank McConnell wrote: > > "Fred Cisin (XenoSoft)" wrote: > > On Thu, 8 Nov 2001, Feldman, Robert wrote: > > > (BTW, my 14-year old son has three slide rules and was quite interested in > > > the giant one up on the wall in a hall at his high school.) > > > > A friend of mine has one of those. I'm envious. > > All you slide rule fans know about the Oughtred Society, right? > > Just in case: http://www.oughtred.org/ > > -Frank McConnell Now if you need to buy one try here. http://www.sphere.bc.ca/test/sruniverse.html Ben Franchuk. -- Live "Pre-historic Cpu's" -- and you thought they were extinct. www.jetnet.ab.ca/users/bfranchuk/index.html From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Fri Nov 9 09:38:04 2001 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (Ben Franchuk) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:48 2005 Subject: Windows, std OS in Hell References: <5.1.0.14.2.20011109051629.028980b0@mail.zipcon.net> Message-ID: <3BEBF85C.C8334881@jetnet.ab.ca> Geoff Reed wrote: > > Nope, WFW3.11, Win95 and Win98 were designed as "small office / home > operating systems" and were never given support for LPR protocol as you > weren't expected to see that in a SOHO / Workgroup or Home setting. (In > yet another previous incarnation I was a support tech for POS at Microsoft > [Personal Operating Systems] ) Dateline 2035 M$ has finally perfected windows. It now crashes before the install is complete. Ben Franchuk. -- Live "Pre-historic Cpu's" -- and you thought they were extinct. www.jetnet.ab.ca/users/bfranchuk/index.html From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Fri Nov 9 09:56:29 2001 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (Ben Franchuk) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:48 2005 Subject: blinkenlights for everybody - status update References: Message-ID: <3BEBFCAD.3BBE0EB3@jetnet.ab.ca> Gooijen H wrote: > If you wonder "how could he write the software that fast?" : > simple; I had that already running in my SpaceShip Simulator. > "What's that", you are wondering now... > Have a look at > > http://home.hetnet.nl/~tshaj Nice page, but I want to know what CPU are you using for controling it if any. Ben Franchuk. -- Live "Pre-historic Cpu's" -- and you thought they were extinct. www.jetnet.ab.ca/users/bfranchuk/index.html From fernande at internet1.net Fri Nov 9 10:01:02 2001 From: fernande at internet1.net (Chad Fernandez) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:48 2005 Subject: Nutella References: Message-ID: <3BEBFDBE.803D8520@internet1.net> What is vegemite? I have never heard of it. Chad Fernandez Michigan, USA Chris Kennedy wrote: > Yep. Then again my tastes may be suspect. I'm probably one > of about six US-born individuals who actually _likes_ Vegemite. From cmcmanis at mcmanis.com Fri Nov 9 10:06:56 2001 From: cmcmanis at mcmanis.com (Chuck McManis) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:49 2005 Subject: Windows, std OS in Hell In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <5.0.0.25.2.20011109080111.023d6dc0@209.185.79.193> In WFW 3.1 support was added for network printing protocols using "SMBs" over NetBIOS I believe (these are ancient memories here). Several folks offer print "servers" that listen for the broadcasts and can print. The HP JetDirect series is probably the most prevalent. The issue with later printers wasn't Windows but the Vendors. At one point HP would prevent you from "sharing" (aka allowing others on the network to use) their low end inkjets. This was to encourage you to buy more expensive inkjets (supposedly heavier duty). I believe they figured out they sell more ink either way and dropped this but I'm not sure. The other thing HP did was invent their own printing protocol (the JetDirect protocol) and they would install a virtual printer driver that could talk that protocol to talk to their printers. --Chuck At 01:20 AM 11/9/01 -0800, Mike Ford wrote: >I've been digging at this problem for a few weeks, and I almost don't >believe the answer. Windows machines apparently won't print directly to >network printers. (obviously NT will, ditto maybe w2k, but not 95 or 98). >The story I hear is that Microsoft wanted to sell more NT servers, so they >pulled the support for standard protocols like LPR (something like that) >forcing users to print from a workstation to a NT server, which contains >the protocols to talk to the network printers directly. Why did windows >users allow MicroSoft to get away with crap like that? > >BTW the sane alternative appears to be SAMBA, but it still is really wrong. >HP has wizard software that gets around this somehow, but Apple can't even >remember it was in the printer business 4 years ago. From bpope at wordstock.com Fri Nov 9 10:05:45 2001 From: bpope at wordstock.com (Bryan Pope) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:49 2005 Subject: Nutella In-Reply-To: from "Chris Kennedy" at Nov 9, 01 07:26:08 am Message-ID: <200111091605.LAA23226@wordstock.com> > > Gene Ehrich wrote: > > [Re: Nutella] > > > If you are a chocolate lover you gotta try it. > > Yep. Then again my tastes may be suspect. I'm probably one > of about six US-born individuals who actually _likes_ Vegemite. Now why do you like Vegemite as opposed to Marmite? HA.. This could start an interesting flame was between the Aussies and Brits over which one is the best.. ;) > > On a related topic, does anyone know where I can get proper > mustard? I'm talking about traditionally hot, sinus-melting > English mustard. I have a friend who brings jars back from > Oz, but the supply is spotty at best... > It sounds like you are describing the mustard they serve in Chineses restaurants... It has that exact same effect with *very* little eaten. (And I like this type of stuff... I put lots of wasabi on my sushi for the sinus cleansing, brain blasting effects...) Cheers, Bryan From edick at idcomm.com Thu Nov 8 23:26:14 2001 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:49 2005 Subject: food References: Message-ID: <000201c1693a$c150c440$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> It's on topic ... I had the stuff in '66. Dick ----- Original Message ----- From: "r. 'bear' stricklin" To: Sent: Thursday, November 08, 2001 3:18 PM Subject: Re: food > On Thu, 8 Nov 2001, Roger Merchberger wrote: > > > *Still* trying to get my uncle to send me some from Deutschland. I ask only > > rarely (because I forget to "pester" him) and he forgets to bring some back > > when he comes (he usually comes back to the states once or twice a > > year...). :-( > > Holy cow, Merch, give your corner grocery another look. I've been able to > buy Nutella at almost any supermarket in the greater Seattle metro area > for several years now. It's even got a proper US-market nutrition label on > it these days, unlike the Ritter Sport I find every now and then, which > has just a sticker over the European-market wrapper. > > Um.. this isn't really on topic for another few years yet. I had Nutella > for the first time in mid-1994, when I went to visit a friend in southern > Germany. It'll only be on topic then because we ate it on broetchen while > hacking on his PC (hallo Andi). (; > > ok > r. > > > From edick at idcomm.com Thu Nov 8 23:23:11 2001 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:49 2005 Subject: OT: food References: <9011A52E011ED311B4280004AC1BA61501467263@yalepress3.unipress.yale.edu><006401c1689f$e705f2a0$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> <15339.894.244463.364550@phaduka.neurotica.com> Message-ID: <000001c1693a$c0f536c0$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> Wouldn't you know it, the reason I painstakingly avoid the Golden Arches once breakfast is over is that I dearly love their fries. Unfortunately, being diabetic, I am not allowed to eat potatoes ... or bread ... or fruit ... or much of anything else I like. My cholesterol's low, though, so the sawbones says that if I get the munchies I can always eat a stick of butter. Dick ----- Original Message ----- From: "Dave McGuire" To: Sent: Thursday, November 08, 2001 3:13 PM Subject: Re: OT: food > On November 8, Richard Erlacher wrote: > > McDonalds puts sugar in their french fries, I recently head on NPR. Apparently > > their sales increased slightly when they started doing that. It's consistent > > with their tendency to limit our diet to salt, fat, and sugar. In reality, I > > guess we do it to ourselves, since we don't have to eat there. The only meal I > > occasionally take at the Golden Arches, is breakfast, since they do, oddly > > enough, have pretty passable coffee. > > Remember...fat means flavor! ;) > > I must admit...I do enjoy a McD's cheeseburger and some fries once > in a while. And the [now discontinued] Jalapeno Poppers from Burger > King were *really* tasty. Though I'm not supposed to have quite that > much salt due to high blood pressure.. :-( > > -Dave > > -- > Dave McGuire > St. Petersburg, FL > > From edick at idcomm.com Thu Nov 8 23:25:08 2001 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:49 2005 Subject: food References: Message-ID: <000101c1693a$c1279160$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> You could attempt to make it yourself if you have a blender. Hazlenuts, chocolate syrup, marshmallow cream ... I guess it depends on how long it's been since you last tasted the real McCoy. Dick ----- Original Message ----- From: "One Without Reason" To: "Roger Merchberger" Cc: Sent: Thursday, November 08, 2001 3:15 PM Subject: Re: food > On Thu, 8 Nov 2001, Roger Merchberger wrote: > > > >Makes Nutella seem like a wholesome product. =) > > > > At the risk of sounding like Homer Simpson... Oooohh... Nutella... > > I've had it once, and that is some *fantastic* stuff... > > > > *Still* trying to get my uncle to send me some from Deutschland. I ask only > > rarely (because I forget to "pester" him) and he forgets to bring some back > > when he comes (he usually comes back to the states once or twice a > > year...). :-( > > Hmm? It's available in supermarkets here. In New York. Ask your local > supermarket's manager. Supermarkets are usually fairly accomodating, and > if they don't have it, they will usually get some for you. > > Peace... Sridhar > > From dittman at dittman.net Fri Nov 9 10:23:22 2001 From: dittman at dittman.net (Eric Dittman) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:49 2005 Subject: OT: food In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.2.20011109082405.00aea690@pop3.norton.antivirus> from "Gene Ehrich" at Nov 09, 2001 08:24:57 AM Message-ID: <200111091623.fA9GNME03501@narnia.int.dittman.net> > At 12:28 AM 11/9/01 -0500, you wrote: > >Hmmm, I noticed that there fries had changed lately. I thought that > >they just cheapened up on them. I don't think that they are as good as > >they used to be. > > The best potatoes in a fast food chain are the potato wedges at KFC. They > coat them with old bay seasoning. I think the best potatoes are Popeye's fries. -- Eric Dittman dittman@dittman.net Check out the DEC Enthusiasts Club at http://www.dittman.net/ From bpope at wordstock.com Fri Nov 9 10:25:18 2001 From: bpope at wordstock.com (Bryan Pope) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:49 2005 Subject: Windows, std OS in Hell In-Reply-To: <3BEBF85C.C8334881@jetnet.ab.ca> from "Ben Franchuk" at Nov 9, 01 08:38:04 am Message-ID: <200111091625.LAA27511@wordstock.com> > > Geoff Reed wrote: > > > > Nope, WFW3.11, Win95 and Win98 were designed as "small office / home > > operating systems" and were never given support for LPR protocol as you > > weren't expected to see that in a SOHO / Workgroup or Home setting. (In > > yet another previous incarnation I was a support tech for POS at Microsoft > > [Personal Operating Systems] ) > > Dateline 2035 > M$ has finally perfected windows. It now crashes before the install is > complete. HA! I guess you have never installed Windows where it crashed while detecting all of the hardware on the computer... There is even a message to tell you what to do if the computer stops functioning for a long period of time.. "Power off the computer, wait a few minutes and turn back on" Bryan From IVIE at cc.usu.edu Fri Nov 9 10:25:17 2001 From: IVIE at cc.usu.edu (Roger Ivie) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:49 2005 Subject: Windows, std OS in Hell Message-ID: <01KAHU4Z727M9LWMU4@cc.usu.edu> Ben Franchuk: > Dateline 2035 > M$ has finally perfected windows. It now crashes before the install is > complete. Been there done that. Well, sort of. I have had Windows looking for things on the CD-ROM before it's gotten far enough in the install to have the CD-ROM drivers loaded. Grumble, grumble, grumble. That's why there's a /win98 directory on my wife's machine containing a copy of the install CD-ROM. Roger Ivie ivie@cc.usu.edu From dittman at dittman.net Fri Nov 9 10:26:20 2001 From: dittman at dittman.net (Eric Dittman) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:49 2005 Subject: food In-Reply-To: <200111091304.IAA15620@wordstock.com> from "Bryan Pope" at Nov 09, 2001 08:04:14 AM Message-ID: <200111091626.fA9GQKr03515@narnia.int.dittman.net> > > Mmm, greens and a juicy steak burned to a crisp. > > > Poor steak... :( *IMHO*, steak is only good served blue rare... I prefer my steak well-cooked. Our ancestors discovered fire for a reason. Cookings correctly cuts down on possible diseases, too (except for "mad cow" disease, which is a prion). -- Eric Dittman dittman@dittman.net Check out the DEC Enthusiasts Club at http://www.dittman.net/ From edick at idcomm.com Fri Nov 9 10:32:18 2001 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:49 2005 Subject: food References: <3BE76EE1.D6F3898D@internet1.net> <5.1.0.14.2.20011108163804.00a04540@mail.30below.com> <3BEB6DB1.E0B863E9@internet1.net> Message-ID: <002e01c1693c$198e6080$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> Don't discount the possibility that Adam and Eve may, in fact, have been monkeys, or very nearly so. Dick ----- Original Message ----- From: "Chad Fernandez" To: Sent: Thursday, November 08, 2001 10:46 PM Subject: Re: food > From what I hear, the Indians most likely crossed the Bearing Straights > (spelling?), so your an immigrant too :-) We all came from somewhere > else originally, whether you believe we came from Adam and Eve, or > monkeys. > > My favorite Indian food is Corn Bread, yum yum, although, I suppose that > what my mother makes, probably isn't exactly what the Indians > made/make. > > Chad Fernandez > Michigan, USA > > Roger Merchberger wrote: > > Hmmm... not sure if I should be offended by this... Despite the last name > > of "Merchberger" a healthy portion of my heritage is descended from exactly > > those who were here before the europeans arrived... > > > > American Indians, aboriginals, "red man", however you want to put it - > > there's a great deal in America that's indigenous, and you'd be amazed with > > the variety & quality of food that's available at a decent-sized American > > Indian pow-wow. > > From mcguire at neurotica.com Fri Nov 9 10:36:47 2001 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:49 2005 Subject: Nutella In-Reply-To: Re: Nutella (Bryan Pope) References: <200111091605.LAA23226@wordstock.com> Message-ID: <15340.1567.54664.73319@phaduka.neurotica.com> On November 9, Bryan Pope wrote: > Now why do you like Vegemite as opposed to Marmite? HA.. This could start > an interesting flame was between the Aussies and Brits over which one is the > best.. ;) I enjoy Marmite when I can get it. It's a very interesting flavor. > It sounds like you are describing the mustard they serve in Chineses > restaurants... It has that exact same effect with *very* little eaten. > (And I like this type of stuff... I put lots of wasabi on my sushi for the > sinus cleansing, brain blasting effects...) ...and hot Chinese mustard is *wonderful*! -Dave -- Dave McGuire St. Petersburg, FL From edick at idcomm.com Fri Nov 9 10:42:53 2001 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:49 2005 Subject: food References: <5.1.0.14.2.20011108163804.00a04540@mail.30below.com> <1334.712T1050T5194395optimus@canit.se> <3BE76EE1.D6F3898D@internet1.net> <4.3.2.7.2.20011109081819.00ad6a50@pop3.norton.antivirus> Message-ID: <008601c1693d$967731c0$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> Try it on plain old toast. It's quite surprising how wide a range of products "go" with Nutella. Dick ----- Original Message ----- From: "Gene Ehrich" To: Sent: Friday, November 09, 2001 6:19 AM Subject: Re: food > At 10:47 PM 11/8/01 -0800, you wrote: > >I get my Nutella here at Fred Meyer or several other local grocery > >stores.. (in washington) > > I just discovered Nutella a few months ago and its great. I read recently > that there is more Nutella sold in the world than all other peanut butter > type products combined. > > I love it right out of the jar or on graham crackers. > > From bpope at wordstock.com Fri Nov 9 10:44:29 2001 From: bpope at wordstock.com (Bryan Pope) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:49 2005 Subject: Nutella In-Reply-To: <3BEBFDBE.803D8520@internet1.net> from "Chad Fernandez" at Nov 9, 01 11:01:02 am Message-ID: <200111091644.LAA32161@wordstock.com> > > What is vegemite? I have never heard of it. > That is like asking "What is sausage made from? How do they make it?" !! ;-) Bryan From chris at mainecoon.com Fri Nov 9 10:49:09 2001 From: chris at mainecoon.com (Chris Kennedy) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:49 2005 Subject: Nutella In-Reply-To: <200111091605.LAA23226@wordstock.com> Message-ID: Bryan Pope wrote: > Now why do you like Vegemite as opposed to Marmite? Dunno -- just prefer the taste. Well, that and I've yet to see a _bucket_ of Marmite, whereas I've actually seen a bucket of Vegemite. It's an awe-inspiring sight... > It sounds like you are describing the mustard they serve in Chineses > restaurants... It has that exact same effect with *very* little eaten. Nah. "Hot" Chinese mustard is positively wimpy next to the stuff I'm talking about. The effect is much like the typical tablespoon-sized dollops of wasabi (well, at least that's my typical per-piece dose -- YMMV), but it takes less to achieve the desired effect and the taste is slightly different. Goes well with a slab of rare moo just off the grill... -- Chris Kennedy chris@mainecoon.com http://www.mainecoon.com PGP fingerprint: 4E99 10B6 7253 B048 6685 6CBC 55E1 20A3 108D AB97 From cmurillo at emtelsa.multi.net.co Fri Nov 9 10:36:42 2001 From: cmurillo at emtelsa.multi.net.co (Carlos Murillo) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:49 2005 Subject: Missing was Re: OS9 or Flex09 on 8" disk needed In-Reply-To: <200111090334.WAA13781@conman.org> References: <402.713T1850T325563optimus@canit.se> Message-ID: <3.0.2.32.20011109113642.0102ae94@obregon.multi.net.co> At 10:34 PM 11/8/01 -0500, you wrote: >It was thus said that the Great Iggy Drougge once stated: >> The problem with GNU programs is that they're so difficult to use. > > I would't say difficult---lots of options yes, but difficult? I guess if >you don't have the man page or any documentation then yes, it might be >difficult to use but I've never had any real problem with using GNU stuff. > > -spc (Now compiling the GNU C compiler ... that can be scary ... ) ... and their configuration is pretty standard across their packages too; once you get to understand how ./configure works, things become very easy. Even my winblows98 pc is full of ported gnu programs. carlos. -------------------------------------------------------------- Carlos E. Murillo-Sanchez carlos_murillo@nospammers.ieee.org From chris at mainecoon.com Fri Nov 9 10:59:34 2001 From: chris at mainecoon.com (Chris Kennedy) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:49 2005 Subject: Nutella In-Reply-To: <3BEBFDBE.803D8520@internet1.net> Message-ID: Chad Fernandez wrote: > What is vegemite? I have never heard of it. The food of the gods or one of the foulest tasting substances on the planet, depending on who you ask. It's also, in effect, a wonderful example of "waste stream utilization". Vegemite is a dark brown pasty substance with a modestly stiff consistency. Looks a lot like shoe polish. It's concentrated yeast extract; the ingredients list read "Yeast extract, salt, mineral salt, malt extract, natural colour, vegetable extract, thiamine, riboflavin, niacin". The most common way to eat this stuff is to spread a thin layer on buttered toast, but I've developed a sufficient immunity as to slather the stuff on. It's also used in cooking, although I've yet to try any such dish and somehow the thought of Vegemite soup ranks right up there with a five-course meal of uni. -- Chris Kennedy chris@mainecoon.com http://www.mainecoon.com PGP fingerprint: 4E99 10B6 7253 B048 6685 6CBC 55E1 20A3 108D AB97 From mcguire at neurotica.com Fri Nov 9 11:06:26 2001 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:49 2005 Subject: Nutella In-Reply-To: RE: Nutella (Chris Kennedy) References: <200111091605.LAA23226@wordstock.com> Message-ID: <15340.3346.684171.528595@phaduka.neurotica.com> On November 9, Chris Kennedy wrote: > Nah. "Hot" Chinese mustard is positively wimpy next to the stuff I'm > talking about. This reminds me of a bottle of hot sauce given to me by a friend recently. It's called "Jerry's Mustard Gas Hot Sauce". It seems like hot Chinese mustard mixed with chili pepper oil. 8-) -Dave -- Dave McGuire St. Petersburg, FL From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Fri Nov 9 11:23:00 2001 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (Ben Franchuk) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:49 2005 Subject: Windows, std OS in Hell References: <200111091625.LAA27511@wordstock.com> Message-ID: <3BEC10F4.96599E7C@jetnet.ab.ca> Bryan Pope wrote: > > I guess you have never installed Windows where it crashed while detecting all > of the hardware on the computer... There is even a message to tell you what > to do if the computer stops functioning for a long period of time.. > "Power off the computer, wait a few minutes and turn back on" No I just have the fun with no CD-ROM drive under DOS. Format C: drive. I start linux from bootfloppy -- run from 2nd HD. Copy the W95 directory from CD-ROM and other drivers from the linux HD.Reboot. Install Windows from DOS. Run windows... Ben Franchuk. -- Live "Pre-historic Cpu's" -- and you thought they were extinct. www.jetnet.ab.ca/users/bfranchuk/index.html From dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com Fri Nov 9 11:36:44 2001 From: dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com (Douglas Quebbeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:49 2005 Subject: Missing was Re: OS9 or Flex09 on 8" disk needed Message-ID: <7A9BACCEF0171D4FB77019F5104CDD37225898@jeffserver.tegjeff.com> > >> I tend to use wget. Runs on everything. The only problem is, it's a GNU > >> program, and that's a big problem. > > >Why would that be a problem? I tend to use wget a lot and it does a > >pretty good job. > > The problem with GNU programs is that they're so difficult to use. Wow, I'm drawing a real blank here too... Are they difficult because they are (or tend to be) command-line programs? If so, that really isn't a GNU characteristic, it's a UNIX characteristic... and true, a shell interface isn't for everyone. -dq From dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com Fri Nov 9 11:40:16 2001 From: dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com (Douglas Quebbeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:49 2005 Subject: Refilling Toner Carts (was RE: Rubber Restorer...) Message-ID: <7A9BACCEF0171D4FB77019F5104CDD37225899@jeffserver.tegjeff.com> > >> About the only common material that sodium hydroxide will attack is > >> aluminium, and then only when concentrated or exposure is reasonably long; > >> it has no effect on copper, steel, etc. > > >Yeah, I've relied on this as a way to make satin-finish aluminum front > >panels for equipment. As the reaction progresses, the NAO2 (?) solution > >has to be preiodlically replaced. It generally took me about two days to > >get the desired look. > > A bead blaster would give you that satin finish in no time flat... True, at the cost of more real-estate... but when I'm done soaking a panel, the Tupperware went back to the kitchen cabinets, awaiting the making of the next Jello Salad... I never got as much flack for that as I did using Mom's roasting pan for oil changes. ;) -dq From dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com Fri Nov 9 11:44:13 2001 From: dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com (Douglas Quebbeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:49 2005 Subject: OT: food Message-ID: <7A9BACCEF0171D4FB77019F5104CDD3722589A@jeffserver.tegjeff.com> > McDonald's ALSO adds a "beef extract" to their fries! > Some Hindus and vegetarians were quite upset to find out. > But the McDonald's spokesperson said, "We NEVER said that our > fries were vegetable." They've stopped adding that at the McDonalds' in India... I think they also replace the "Big mac" with The Big Foghorn Leghorn"... -dq From dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com Fri Nov 9 11:44:55 2001 From: dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com (Douglas Quebbeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:49 2005 Subject: Paging Jay West Message-ID: <7A9BACCEF0171D4FB77019F5104CDD3722589B@jeffserver.tegjeff.com> Jay- I'm sure you're just busy, but drop me a line when you can... Regards, -doug q From dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com Fri Nov 9 11:45:38 2001 From: dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com (Douglas Quebbeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:49 2005 Subject: Nuke Redmond! Message-ID: <7A9BACCEF0171D4FB77019F5104CDD3722589C@jeffserver.tegjeff.com> > Too bad people [companies] can't be sued for being incompetent > schmucks. This is America- you can sure for anything. Winning and getting the loser to ante up is the trick... -dq From korpela at ssl.berkeley.edu Fri Nov 9 11:50:39 2001 From: korpela at ssl.berkeley.edu (Eric J. Korpela) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:49 2005 Subject: food In-Reply-To: <3BEB71FB.D74D96DD@internet1.net> from Chad Fernandez at "Nov 9, 2001 01:04:43 am" Message-ID: <200111091750.JAA18065@ellie.ssl.berkeley.edu> > Where would they find gators? Since the Cherokee were native to the American southeast, I would guess they found them nearly everywhere there was water. The story of how they got to where the reservations are is both tragic and one of the more shameful portions of our national history. Now, I would guess that they get alligator from farms. You can, too: http://www.gatorama.com/ribs.htm was the first place that came up on a Google search. You get get it for less elsewhere, though. Eric From dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com Fri Nov 9 11:56:28 2001 From: dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com (Douglas Quebbeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:49 2005 Subject: Clearly OT (but what the hell...) (was: food Message-ID: <7A9BACCEF0171D4FB77019F5104CDD3722589D@jeffserver.tegjeff.com> > > > It varies. Which night would you like? :-) > > > Any night whose name ends in the letter 'Y' and which > > occurs once each week... but Chris already informed me > > this is merely a yearly affair... one I'm sure to look > > forward to if I have to wait a year for a wee dram! > > But the drinking part and eating part, and indeed most other parts needn't > only be annual. Only the Burn's Night title part is annual :-) Um, you do > have to listen to bagpipes, though, if it's Burn's Night. Sign me up... I love the drone! Worked for a publishing company, and one of the VP's played the pipes. He'd go up on the roof of the building at lunch at least once a week to play. While returning from an early lunch, I was approaching the building, enjoying his jamming, when an older women exiting the building heard the sound, looked up, then looked at me and said "My, I do *love* the sound of the saxophone"... -dq From dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com Fri Nov 9 12:00:11 2001 From: dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com (Douglas Quebbeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:49 2005 Subject: Apple Floppy Drives (was: More Apple Pimpers) Message-ID: <7A9BACCEF0171D4FB77019F5104CDD3722589E@jeffserver.tegjeff.com> > > To which you should have responded: > > Bad Boys Rape Our Young Girls But Viloet Gave Willingly Around here, we subsituted "ravage"... sounds better, really isn't... -dq From dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com Fri Nov 9 12:01:57 2001 From: dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com (Douglas Quebbeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:49 2005 Subject: OT - Re: food Message-ID: <7A9BACCEF0171D4FB77019F5104CDD3722589F@jeffserver.tegjeff.com> > > > > >Can you get that variety where you live? > > > > Certainly. And Mongolian BBQ, too. =) > > > > I can walk to one. Yum! Sounds dog-gone good! -dq From mythtech at Mac.com Fri Nov 9 12:02:34 2001 From: mythtech at Mac.com (Chris) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:49 2005 Subject: food Message-ID: >You forgor the 80's..... hamburger chains WITH salad bars! Wendys was >the longest running, well into the 90s, but Burger King had one for a >short while too, maybe even McDonalds too... I don't recall. If you can FIND a roy rogers, they STILL have a salad bar... sort of, they call it a "fixin's bar", but you can make a salad out of the contents (at least you could when there was still a roy's near me, now they are down to ONE on the turnpike, all the others are either abondoned, or bought out by wendy's) -chris From korpela at ssl.berkeley.edu Fri Nov 9 12:02:11 2001 From: korpela at ssl.berkeley.edu (Eric J. Korpela) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:49 2005 Subject: Windows, std OS in Hell In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20011109051629.028980b0@mail.zipcon.net> from Geoff Reed at "Nov 9, 2001 05:19:01 am" Message-ID: <200111091802.KAA18412@ellie.ssl.berkeley.edu> > Nope, WFW3.11, Win95 and Win98 were designed as "small office / home > operating systems" and were never given support for LPR protocol as you > weren't expected to see that in a SOHO / Workgroup or Home setting. (In > yet another previous incarnation I was a support tech for POS at Microsoft > [Personal Operating Systems] ) I could have sworn I had set up Win95 machines with support for unix printers. I don't recall that possibility in Win98, which seemed to ship with a reduced driver set than Win95. Eric From korpela at ssl.berkeley.edu Fri Nov 9 12:03:35 2001 From: korpela at ssl.berkeley.edu (Eric J. Korpela) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:49 2005 Subject: Windows, std OS in Hell In-Reply-To: <3BEBF85C.C8334881@jetnet.ab.ca> from Ben Franchuk at "Nov 9, 2001 08:38:04 am" Message-ID: <200111091803.KAA18427@ellie.ssl.berkeley.edu> > Dateline 2035 > M$ has finally perfected windows. It now crashes before the install is > complete. Don't you mean dateline 1995? I have certainly had this happen on some machines with every version since 95 was shipped. Eric From dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com Fri Nov 9 12:04:57 2001 From: dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com (Douglas Quebbeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:49 2005 Subject: food Message-ID: <7A9BACCEF0171D4FB77019F5104CDD372258A0@jeffserver.tegjeff.com> > You forgor the 80's..... hamburger chains WITH salad bars! Wendys was > the longest running, well into the 90s, but Burger King had one for a > short while too, maybe even McDonalds too... I don't recall. Burger Queen was my favorite... buffalo wings, potato wedges, meatloaf, along woth the usual salad stuff. When BQ became Druthers, they kept them for a while... maybe until '91? -dq From bpope at wordstock.com Fri Nov 9 12:07:22 2001 From: bpope at wordstock.com (Bryan Pope) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:49 2005 Subject: OT: food In-Reply-To: <200111091623.fA9GNME03501@narnia.int.dittman.net> from "Eric Dittman" at Nov 9, 01 10:23:22 am Message-ID: <200111091807.NAA12358@wordstock.com> > > > At 12:28 AM 11/9/01 -0500, you wrote: > > >Hmmm, I noticed that there fries had changed lately. I thought that > > >they just cheapened up on them. I don't think that they are as good as > > >they used to be. > > > > The best potatoes in a fast food chain are the potato wedges at KFC. They > > coat them with old bay seasoning. > > I think the best potatoes are Popeye's fries. I will have to disagree... The bestest fries come from Swiss Chalet.. But that is because of the awesome dipping sauce... :D Bryan From dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com Fri Nov 9 12:07:19 2001 From: dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com (Douglas Quebbeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:49 2005 Subject: food Message-ID: <7A9BACCEF0171D4FB77019F5104CDD372258A1@jeffserver.tegjeff.com> > My personal favorite burger > > 1. Texas toast > 2. barbecue sauce > 3. fried onion ring > 4. bacon > 5. melted cheddar cheese > 6. extra well-done meat patty > 7. barbecue sauce > 8. Texas toast Yeah... but don't try the Burger King version of this, they just use regular buns, and the cheese is, well, most likely not cheese... -dq From dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com Fri Nov 9 12:12:28 2001 From: dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com (Douglas Quebbeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:49 2005 Subject: food Message-ID: <7A9BACCEF0171D4FB77019F5104CDD372258A2@jeffserver.tegjeff.com> Our good friend Jeffrey Sharp first said: > All right, all right. The poor Okie needs an education. > What the hell is Nutella? Then, shortly thereafter: > On Thu, 8 Nov 2001, Chris wrote: > > > My family has direct ancestry to settlers on some of the first ships > > [...] How far back is one supposed to go to decide their "heritage" > > 100 years? > > I was born in America. I'm an American. That's how I see it. So, which is it? Sorry to pick on ya Jeff, but this here Hoosier is just plain bored... ;-) From dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com Fri Nov 9 12:15:25 2001 From: dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com (Douglas Quebbeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:49 2005 Subject: food Message-ID: <7A9BACCEF0171D4FB77019F5104CDD372258A3@jeffserver.tegjeff.com> > > Mmm, greens and a juicy steak burned to a crisp. > > > Poor steak... :( *IMHO*, steak is only good served blue rare... After the first time I ate a steak rare, I came to understand what the creators of steak sauces appear to be trying to re-create... the actual taste of meat. But I want mine cooked enough that it's hot inside... I cut into it and detect cold temperature, the steak goes back. -dq From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Fri Nov 9 12:23:35 2001 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (Ben Franchuk) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:49 2005 Subject: Missing was Re: OS9 or Flex09 on 8" disk needed References: <7A9BACCEF0171D4FB77019F5104CDD37225898@jeffserver.tegjeff.com> Message-ID: <3BEC1F27.2993518D@jetnet.ab.ca> Douglas Quebbeman wrote: > > > >> I tend to use wget. Runs on everything. The only problem is, it's a GNU > > >> program, and that's a big problem. > > > > >Why would that be a problem? I tend to use wget a lot and it does a > > >pretty good job. > > > > The problem with GNU programs is that they're so difficult to use. > > Wow, I'm drawing a real blank here too... > > Are they difficult because they are (or tend to be) command-line > programs? If so, that really isn't a GNU characteristic, it's a > UNIX characteristic... and true, a shell interface isn't for > everyone. > > -dq What I wished is somebody developed a good standard TEXT GUI interface. 90% of stuff is still done in text windows. High res screens could have been under the text window. The split text/High res screen that apple ][ had was a nice idea. Ben Franchuk. -- Live "Pre-historic Cpu's" -- and you thought they were extinct. www.jetnet.ab.ca/users/bfranchuk/index.html From dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com Fri Nov 9 12:26:17 2001 From: dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com (Douglas Quebbeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:49 2005 Subject: Nutella Message-ID: <7A9BACCEF0171D4FB77019F5104CDD372258A4@jeffserver.tegjeff.com> > On a related topic, does anyone know where I can get proper > mustard? I'm talking about traditionally hot, sinus-melting > English mustard. I have a friend who brings jars back from > Oz, but the supply is spotty at best... No, but I've been thinking of trying to substitute wasabi sauce for it, wow, talk about opening your sinuses... -dq From dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com Fri Nov 9 12:30:05 2001 From: dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com (Douglas Quebbeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:49 2005 Subject: food Message-ID: <7A9BACCEF0171D4FB77019F5104CDD372258A5@jeffserver.tegjeff.com> > Don't discount the possibility that Adam and Eve may, in > fact, have been monkeys, or very nearly so. It's my understanding that some Southern Baptitst coming to terms with evolution have proposed this... reminds me of some of what I recall from The Urantia Book... -dq From dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com Fri Nov 9 12:33:04 2001 From: dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com (Douglas Quebbeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:49 2005 Subject: food Message-ID: <7A9BACCEF0171D4FB77019F5104CDD372258A6@jeffserver.tegjeff.com> > > Where would they find gators? > > Since the Cherokee were native to the American southeast, I would guess > they found them nearly everywhere there was water. The story of how they > got to where the reservations are is both tragic and one of the more shameful > portions of our national history. And reason enough in my mind to want Jackson's face taken off our currency... -dq From alpha at ka.net Fri Nov 9 12:42:09 2001 From: alpha at ka.net (Paul E. Smith) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:49 2005 Subject: Lots o' stuff that I don't need, it's free too Message-ID: <200111091851.fA9IpwT25320@host.ka.net> I recently purchased a used HP 7475a plotter and I need an instruction manual. Can you help? If so, you can reach me at 812-207-6502. My mailing address is Paul E. Smith 1109 E. Main Street New Albany, IN 47150 Thanks in advance for your help. Regards, Paul E. Smith From bpope at wordstock.com Fri Nov 9 12:51:32 2001 From: bpope at wordstock.com (Bryan Pope) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:49 2005 Subject: food In-Reply-To: <7A9BACCEF0171D4FB77019F5104CDD372258A3@jeffserver.tegjeff.com> from "Douglas Quebbeman" at Nov 9, 01 01:15:25 pm Message-ID: <200111091851.NAA23746@wordstock.com> > > > > Mmm, greens and a juicy steak burned to a crisp. > > > > > Poor steak... :( *IMHO*, steak is only good served blue rare... > > After the first time I ate a steak rare, I came to understand > what the creators of steak sauces appear to be trying to re-create... > the actual taste of meat. > > But I want mine cooked enough that it's hot inside... I cut into > it and detect cold temperature, the steak goes back. > I understand... But for me cool is kewl... :) I have tried to eat the steak cooked more... but can't stand the taste. Bryan From gehrich at tampabay.rr.com Fri Nov 9 12:53:01 2001 From: gehrich at tampabay.rr.com (Gene Ehrich) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:49 2005 Subject: Nutella In-Reply-To: <3BEBFDBE.803D8520@internet1.net> References: Message-ID: <4.3.2.7.2.20011109135248.00adc360@pop3.norton.antivirus> At 11:01 AM 11/9/01 -0500, you wrote: >What is vegemite? I have never heard of it. http://www.medianet.ca/curioso/bovril/bvrlinfo/vegemite/vegemite.htm --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- gene@ehrich.com gehrich@tampabay.rr.com P.O. Box 3365 Spring Hill Florida 34611-3365 http://www.voicenet.com/~generic Computer & Video Game Garage Sale From fernande at internet1.net Fri Nov 9 12:55:33 2001 From: fernande at internet1.net (Chad Fernandez) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:49 2005 Subject: food References: <3BE76EE1.D6F3898D@internet1.net> <5.1.0.14.2.20011108163804.00a04540@mail.30below.com> <3BEB6DB1.E0B863E9@internet1.net> <002e01c1693c$198e6080$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> Message-ID: <3BEC26A5.A2DEB218@internet1.net> Adam was made in God's own image, not that of a monkey. Chad Fernandez Michigan, USA Richard Erlacher wrote: > > Don't discount the possibility that Adam and Eve may, in fact, have been > monkeys, or very nearly so. > > Dick From gehrich at tampabay.rr.com Fri Nov 9 12:54:34 2001 From: gehrich at tampabay.rr.com (Gene Ehrich) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:49 2005 Subject: Marmite In-Reply-To: <15340.1567.54664.73319@phaduka.neurotica.com> References: <200111091605.LAA23226@wordstock.com> Message-ID: <4.3.2.7.2.20011109135349.00ad2100@pop3.norton.antivirus> At 11:36 AM 11/9/01 -0500, you wrote: > I enjoy Marmite when I can get it. It's a very interesting flavor. I looked it up and it says Marmite is a clay pot. --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- gene@ehrich.com gehrich@tampabay.rr.com P.O. Box 3365 Spring Hill Florida 34611-3365 http://www.voicenet.com/~generic Computer & Video Game Garage Sale From korpela at ssl.berkeley.edu Fri Nov 9 13:27:07 2001 From: korpela at ssl.berkeley.edu (Eric J. Korpela) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:49 2005 Subject: food In-Reply-To: <3BEC26A5.A2DEB218@internet1.net> from Chad Fernandez at "Nov 9, 2001 01:55:33 pm" Message-ID: <200111091927.LAA20132@ellie.ssl.berkeley.edu> > Adam was made in God's own image, not that of a monkey. Take it to talk.origins. Food is a reasonable topics since we all need to eat. On the other hand we don't all beleive in any particular religion and discussions of this sort get quicly out of hand. Eric From geneb at deltasoft.com Fri Nov 9 13:51:12 2001 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (Gene Buckle) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:49 2005 Subject: food In-Reply-To: <3BEC26A5.A2DEB218@internet1.net> Message-ID: Really? Fascinating. BTW, I've got some ocean front property in South Dakota I can make you a great deal on. g. On Fri, 9 Nov 2001, Chad Fernandez wrote: > Adam was made in God's own image, not that of a monkey. > > Chad Fernandez > Michigan, USA > > Richard Erlacher wrote: > > > > Don't discount the possibility that Adam and Eve may, in fact, have been > > monkeys, or very nearly so. > > > > Dick > > From sipke at wxs.nl Fri Nov 9 13:42:27 2001 From: sipke at wxs.nl (Sipke de Wal) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:49 2005 Subject: Marmite References: <200111091605.LAA23226@wordstock.com> <4.3.2.7.2.20011109135349.00ad2100@pop3.norton.antivirus> Message-ID: <006901c16956$aa8f3360$030101ac@boll.casema.net> Marmite is a kinda fermented soya molasses that you can spread on a cheese-sandwich. Very nice on sandwiches with baked-eggs as well (Strammer Max) but don't use too much, just a tiny little smear! Just to keep it on topic ...... Don't smear it on new or vintage computer equipment that would be a very bad idea! Sipke de Wal ------------------------------------------------- http://xgistor.ath.cx ------------------------------------------------- ----- Original Message ----- From: Gene Ehrich To: Sent: Friday, November 09, 2001 7:54 PM Subject: Re: Marmite > At 11:36 AM 11/9/01 -0500, you wrote: > > I enjoy Marmite when I can get it. It's a very interesting flavor. > > I looked it up and it says Marmite is a clay pot. > > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ --------------- > > gene@ehrich.com > gehrich@tampabay.rr.com > P.O. Box 3365 Spring Hill Florida 34611-3365 > > http://www.voicenet.com/~generic > Computer & Video Game Garage Sale > > > > > From optimus at canit.se Fri Nov 9 13:57:51 2001 From: optimus at canit.se (Iggy Drougge) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:49 2005 Subject: Cable and connector source In-Reply-To: <10111090804.ZM5912@mindy.dunnington.u-net.com> Message-ID: <903.713T2550T12576219optimus@canit.se> Pete Turnbull skrev: >On Nov 8, 21:54, Don McClure wrote: >>Yes, I am learning to hate them too. I ruined two mini-DINs when trying to >> solder them up. I'm going to try again using crimp connectors instead, >>when I locate some. >I've never seen any crimp miniDINs, so don't wait too long ;-) I wouldn't try to solder a mini-DIN if I didn't have to. I'd rather just cut up a cable and solder the right end to it. There are some tricks to soldering mini-DINs in an AppleGuide file called "L?ten am Mac". I think one of them involves getting crimp-on solder shoes (I'm not aware of the proper English nomenclature). -- En ligne avec Thor 2.6a. VIRGO (Aug 23 - Sept 22) You are the logical type and hate disorder. This nitpicking is sickening to your friends. You are cold and unemotional and sometimes fall asleep while making love. Virgos make good bus drivers. From optimus at canit.se Fri Nov 9 13:59:32 2001 From: optimus at canit.se (Iggy Drougge) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:49 2005 Subject: Atari ST cartridge port In-Reply-To: <003701c138c5$f7583370$5eb1ff0a@cvendel> Message-ID: <721.713T1600T12595565optimus@canit.se> Curt Vendel skrev: >There were some other products like eprom burners, clock cart (for earlier >ST no equipped with internal clocks), robot kit, digitizer, controlling a >proprietary brand of color copiers around 90-92' and of course... for ROM >based programs, one of the most popular was the VT100 cart which allowed the >ST to access VAX's and was actually cheaper then VT100's at the time. My EPROM burner hangs off the ST cartridge port. It is really based on an experiment board for the cart port, though. It's a nice port whenever you need some data lines. -- En ligne avec Thor 2.6a. Iggy tipsar: Koppla aldrig en C128-transformator till en A500. ?ven om kontakterna ser likadana ut, ligger sp?nningarna fel. From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Nov 9 13:46:04 2001 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:49 2005 Subject: Apple Floppy Drives (was: More Apple Pimpers) In-Reply-To: <3BEB532C.DCBF5707@mail.verizon.net> from "Eric Chomko" at Nov 8, 1 10:53:16 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1784 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20011109/18d136e7/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Nov 9 13:32:49 2001 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:49 2005 Subject: 8 inch floppy drives In-Reply-To: <512.713T2600T1495729optimus@canit.se> from "Iggy Drougge" at Nov 9, 1 02:29:52 am Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1457 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20011109/5c5c3974/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Nov 9 13:38:20 2001 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:49 2005 Subject: Cable and connector source In-Reply-To: from "Don McClure" at Nov 8, 1 09:54:12 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 844 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20011109/2bae298d/attachment.ksh From gehrich at tampabay.rr.com Fri Nov 9 14:04:02 2001 From: gehrich at tampabay.rr.com (Gene Ehrich) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:50 2005 Subject: food In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <4.3.2.7.2.20011109150249.00ae7a70@pop3.norton.antivirus> At 01:02 PM 11/9/01 -0500, you wrote: >If you can FIND a roy rogers Roy Rogers used to make the greatest rare hamburgers to order about 15 years ago but then they went to pre-processed and it was never the same again. They also had great fried chicken, almost as good as KFC. --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- gene@ehrich.com gehrich@tampabay.rr.com P.O. Box 3365 Spring Hill Florida 34611-3365 http://www.voicenet.com/~generic Computer & Video Game Garage Sale From gehrich at tampabay.rr.com Fri Nov 9 14:06:24 2001 From: gehrich at tampabay.rr.com (Gene Ehrich) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:50 2005 Subject: food In-Reply-To: <200111091851.NAA23746@wordstock.com> References: <7A9BACCEF0171D4FB77019F5104CDD372258A3@jeffserver.tegjeff.com> Message-ID: <4.3.2.7.2.20011109150535.00acb930@pop3.norton.antivirus> At 01:51 PM 11/9/01 -0500, you wrote: > > But I want mine cooked enough that it's hot inside... I cut into > > it and detect cold temperature, the steak goes back. > > > >I understand... But for me cool is kewl... :) I have tried to eat the steak >cooked more... but can't stand the taste. My wife always says she when she sees my medium rare steak that she doesn't want to eat the blood. I tell her we both eat it but yours is dried out blood. --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- gene@ehrich.com gehrich@tampabay.rr.com P.O. Box 3365 Spring Hill Florida 34611-3365 http://www.voicenet.com/~generic Computer & Video Game Garage Sale From gehrich at tampabay.rr.com Fri Nov 9 14:07:45 2001 From: gehrich at tampabay.rr.com (Gene Ehrich) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:50 2005 Subject: food In-Reply-To: <3BEC26A5.A2DEB218@internet1.net> References: <3BE76EE1.D6F3898D@internet1.net> <5.1.0.14.2.20011108163804.00a04540@mail.30below.com> <3BEB6DB1.E0B863E9@internet1.net> <002e01c1693c$198e6080$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> Message-ID: <4.3.2.7.2.20011109150646.00acb330@pop3.norton.antivirus> At 01:55 PM 11/9/01 -0500, you wrote: >Adam was made in God's own image, not that of a monkey. Adam who? Can't believe anybody really believes that Adam and Eve existed. --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- gene@ehrich.com gehrich@tampabay.rr.com P.O. Box 3365 Spring Hill Florida 34611-3365 http://www.voicenet.com/~generic Computer & Video Game Garage Sale From jss at subatomix.com Fri Nov 9 14:11:54 2001 From: jss at subatomix.com (Jeffrey S. Sharp) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:50 2005 Subject: food In-Reply-To: <7A9BACCEF0171D4FB77019F5104CDD372258A1@jeffserver.tegjeff.com> Message-ID: <20011109141106.R96380-100000@lepton.subatomix.com> On Fri, 9 Nov 2001, Douglas Quebbeman wrote: > > My personal favorite burger > > > > 1. Texas toast > > 2. barbecue sauce > > 3. fried onion ring > > 4. bacon > > 5. melted cheddar cheese > > 6. extra well-done meat patty > > 7. barbecue sauce > > 8. Texas toast > > Yeah... but don't try the Burger King version of this I've found the closest thing thus far at Sonic. -- Jeffrey S. Sharp jss@subatomix.com From jss at subatomix.com Fri Nov 9 14:12:57 2001 From: jss at subatomix.com (Jeffrey S. Sharp) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:50 2005 Subject: food In-Reply-To: <7A9BACCEF0171D4FB77019F5104CDD372258A2@jeffserver.tegjeff.com> Message-ID: <20011109141240.T96380-100000@lepton.subatomix.com> On Fri, 9 Nov 2001, Douglas Quebbeman wrote: > Our good friend Jeffrey Sharp first said: > > All right, all right. The poor Okie needs an education. > > What the hell is Nutella? > > Then, shortly thereafter: > > > On Thu, 8 Nov 2001, Chris wrote: > > > > > My family has direct ancestry to settlers on some of the first ships > > > [...] How far back is one supposed to go to decide their "heritage" > > > 100 years? > > > > I was born in America. I'm an American. That's how I see it. > > So, which is it? Yes. -- Jeffrey S. Sharp jss@subatomix.com From jss at subatomix.com Fri Nov 9 14:23:10 2001 From: jss at subatomix.com (Jeffrey S. Sharp) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:50 2005 Subject: food In-Reply-To: <3BEC26A5.A2DEB218@internet1.net> Message-ID: <20011109141741.W96380-100000@lepton.subatomix.com> On Fri, 9 Nov 2001, Chad Fernandez wrote: > Adam was made in God's own image, not that of a monkey. I got curious and talked to two Christians about this once. They seemed to have the idea that evolution may have been the process that their deity utilized to create Adam and Eve. -- Jeffrey S. Sharp jss@subatomix.com From optimus at canit.se Fri Nov 9 14:01:01 2001 From: optimus at canit.se (Iggy Drougge) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:50 2005 Subject: Missing was Re: OS9 or Flex09 on 8" disk needed In-Reply-To: <200111090334.WAA13781@conman.org> Message-ID: <770.713T50T12613187optimus@canit.se> Sean 'Captain Napalm' Conner skrev: >It was thus said that the Great Iggy Drougge once stated: >> >> Alexander Schreiber skrev: >> >> >> I tend to use wget. Runs on everything. The only problem is, it's a GNU >> >> program, and that's a big problem. >> >> >Why would that be a problem? I tend to use wget a lot and it does a >> >pretty good job. >> >> The problem with GNU programs is that they're so difficult to use. > I would't say difficult---lots of options yes, but difficult? I guess if >you don't have the man page or any documentation then yes, it might be >difficult to use but I've never had any real problem with using GNU stuff. Real GNU programs don't have man pages. =) -- En ligne avec Thor 2.6a. Allt ?r under kontroll, och caps lock ?r bredvid. From optimus at canit.se Fri Nov 9 14:06:09 2001 From: optimus at canit.se (Iggy Drougge) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:50 2005 Subject: OT - Re: food In-Reply-To: <3BEB569B.72926E50@mail.verizon.net> Message-ID: <1739.713T450T12664391optimus@canit.se> Eric Chomko skrev: >Iggy Drougge wrote: >> Eric Chomko skrev: >> >> >Iggy Drougge wrote: >> >> >> I find it somewhat interesting how Americans define "foreign". Doesn't >> >> that require something "indigenous"? =) >> >> >Ha! We are accused of being "typical" or "ugly". Those comments make us >> >indigenous. >> >(And they say that WE have double standards!) >> >> It's such a mess, really. What I did find funny was how Americans define >> what's foreign, though. Americans are traditionally immigrants, after all. >Yes we are. And? So when do you decide that someone is a foreigner? >> >But guess what? I can go to any large city and even smaller ones and get: >> >Chinese, Korean, Thai, Indian, Mexican, Greek, Italian, Jewish, African >> >(and others) food. In fact, all those and more are all within an hour of >> >my house, with many choices of many. What I lack is good German food >> >nearby, but that is another story. >> >> >Can you get that variety where you live? >> >> Certainly. And Mongolian BBQ, too. =) >I can walk to one. I can walk to Moscow. >> There is a great kiosk with German sausages, too. I don't know much about >> German food, though. When I was on holidays in Germany, all I ate was kebab >> and Chinese food. But German kebabs are different. They're made by Turks, >> and called "kebap". They often contain chicken. >Not German. What beer did they serve? Berliner Kindl. -- En ligne avec Thor 2.6a. [E]xcept in the works of Gunnar Asplund, architect of the Stockholm Exhibition of 1930 and the Stockholm crematorium, Sweden has never contributed much to the revolutionary developments through which modern architecture made its initial impact on the world. J.M. Richards, Modern Architecture From optimus at canit.se Fri Nov 9 14:12:12 2001 From: optimus at canit.se (Iggy Drougge) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:50 2005 Subject: Cromemco landmarks In-Reply-To: <01C168AB.0CDD2380@mse-d03> Message-ID: <850.713T600T12724057optimus@canit.se> M H Stein skrev: Just for the record, I've never heard of Cromemco. >As to the performance figures vs. DEC, they were taken from Datamation & Unix >World magazines and a UNIX USENET study, this being in late 1986. >Interestingly enough, Dhrystone benchmarks are: >Cromix CS420: 3703 >VAX11/785 2136 >VAX11/780 1662 >MicroVAX-II 1612 >VAX11/750 1091 >IBM RT 1333 >While the Whetstone scores make the MicroVAX look a lot better: >CS420 1,050,000 >MicroVAX II 877,000 >VAX11/780 476,000 >IBM RT 200,000 >Cromemco Z80 7,000 Isn't this rather odd? The MicroVAX II is supposed to be 0,5 VUP, right? So what have the DEC engineers done to make it just as fast in the Dhrystone and even faster than the 11/780 in the Whetstone benchmarks? -- En ligne avec Thor 2.6a. "I'm all man underneath my skirt." Boy George From louiss at gate.net Fri Nov 9 14:33:36 2001 From: louiss at gate.net (Louis Schulman) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:50 2005 Subject: Osborne floppy drives (was Apple Floppy Drives) In-Reply-To: <20011109062342.LWES25211.imf17bis.bellsouth.net@thegoodw> Message-ID: <200111092033.PAA16572@barry.mail.mindspring.net> I am happy to hear that. That Osborne was evidently "very low mileage". And, while I don't remember exactly, I may have aligned the drives on that machine, or swapped drives with another to get a pair of dirves that worked together. For some reason, drives that won't work correctly in one Osborne sometimes will in a different machine, even though this would appear to not make sense. Louis On Fri, 9 Nov 2001 01:21:09 -0500, Glen Goodwin wrote: #> From: Louis Schulman # #> What about the single board CP/M machines? I have them too. The disk #drives on the Osborne were, #> based on extensive experience, the least reliable ever made. If one #drive could read what another had #> written, it was a gift from God. And with the double density upgrade, it #was much worse. # #Really?? The Osborne 1 I got from you works perfectly. I've used it to #copy boatloads of disks, and have also used my Kaypro 10 and my Wintel PC #to make disks for it, without fail. # #Glen #0/0 # From optimus at canit.se Fri Nov 9 14:29:49 2001 From: optimus at canit.se (Iggy Drougge) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:50 2005 Subject: Nutella In-Reply-To: <200111091644.LAA32161@wordstock.com> Message-ID: <409.713T2450T12896191optimus@canit.se> Bryan Pope skrev: >> What is vegemite? I have never heard of it. >That is like asking "What is sausage made from? How do they make it?" !! >From meat and bowels, of course. Plastic bowels if they're cheap. But seriously, what is it? Some kind of p?t?? -- En ligne avec Thor 2.6a. Sagt, ist noch ein Land, au?er Deutschland, wo man die Nase eher r?mpfen lernt als putzen? --- Georg Christoph Lichtenberg From mcguire at neurotica.com Fri Nov 9 14:43:00 2001 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:50 2005 Subject: Cromemco landmarks In-Reply-To: Re: Cromemco landmarks (Iggy Drougge) References: <01C168AB.0CDD2380@mse-d03> <850.713T600T12724057optimus@canit.se> Message-ID: <15340.16340.974244.277920@phaduka.neurotica.com> On November 9, Iggy Drougge wrote: > Isn't this rather odd? The MicroVAX II is supposed to be 0,5 VUP, right? So > what have the DEC engineers done to make it just as fast in the Dhrystone and > even faster than the 11/780 in the Whetstone benchmarks? 0.9 VUP, not 0.5. -Dave -- Dave McGuire St. Petersburg, FL From pechter at ureach.com Fri Nov 9 14:46:35 2001 From: pechter at ureach.com (Bill Pechter) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:50 2005 Subject: Cromemco landmarks Message-ID: <200111092046.PAA04811@stage21.ureach.com> ---- On 9 Nov 2001 21:12:12, Iggy Drougge (optimus@canit.se) wrote: > M H Stein skrev: > > Just for the record, I've never heard of Cromemco. > > >As to the performance figures vs. DEC, they were taken from Datamation > & Unix > >World magazines and a UNIX USENET study, this being in late 1986. > >Interestingly enough, Dhrystone benchmarks are: > > >Cromix CS420: 3703 > >VAX11/785 2136 > >VAX11/780 1662 > >MicroVAX-II 1612 > >VAX11/750 1091 > >IBM RT 1333 > > >While the Whetstone scores make the MicroVAX look a lot better: > > >CS420 1,050,000 > >MicroVAX II 877,000 > >VAX11/780 476,000 > >IBM RT 200,000 > >Cromemco Z80 7,000 > > Isn't this rather odd? The MicroVAX II is supposed to be 0,5 VUP, right? > So > what have the DEC engineers done to make it just as fast in the > Dhrystone and > even faster than the 11/780 in the Whetstone benchmarks? > > -- > En ligne avec Thor 2.6a. > > "I'm all man underneath my skirt." > Boy George > > IIRC the MicroVaxII was 0.9 VUP. -- Bill Pechter Systems Administrator uReach Technologies 732-335-5432 (Work) 877-661-2126 (Fax) From marvin at rain.org Fri Nov 9 14:50:31 2001 From: marvin at rain.org (Marvin Johnston) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:50 2005 Subject: OT again Re: food References: <3BE76EE1.D6F3898D@internet1.net> <5.1.0.14.2.20011108163804.00a04540@mail.30below.com> <3BEB6DB1.E0B863E9@internet1.net> <002e01c1693c$198e6080$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> <4.3.2.7.2.20011109150646.00acb330@pop3.norton.antivirus> Message-ID: <3BEC4197.BA5458D7@rain.org> Gene Ehrich wrote: > > >Adam was made in God's own image, not that of a monkey. > > Adam who? > > Can't believe anybody really believes that Adam and Eve existed. I can't believe there is anybody who doesn't believe in God. From optimus at canit.se Fri Nov 9 14:46:15 2001 From: optimus at canit.se (Iggy Drougge) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:50 2005 Subject: Missing was Re: OS9 or Flex09 on 8" disk needed In-Reply-To: <7A9BACCEF0171D4FB77019F5104CDD37225898@jeffserver.tegjeff.com> Message-ID: <797.713T750T13063995optimus@canit.se> Douglas Quebbeman skrev: >> >> I tend to use wget. Runs on everything. The only problem is, it's a GNU >> >> program, and that's a big problem. >> >> >Why would that be a problem? I tend to use wget a lot and it does a >> >pretty good job. >> >> The problem with GNU programs is that they're so difficult to use. >Wow, I'm drawing a real blank here too... >Are they difficult because they are (or tend to be) command-line >programs? If so, that really isn't a GNU characteristic, it's a >UNIX characteristic... and true, a shell interface isn't for >everyone. But GNU programs are not UNIX programs, are they? ;-) But I beg to differ, CLIs are great, it's just that all CLIs are not created equal. -- En ligne avec Thor 2.6a. MUSIK G?R MAN AV PLAST OCH KISEL! TR?D ANV?NDER MAN TILL M?BLER! From vance at ikickass.org Fri Nov 9 14:52:54 2001 From: vance at ikickass.org (One Without Reason) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:50 2005 Subject: OT: food In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.2.20011109082405.00aea690@pop3.norton.antivirus> Message-ID: No. The best one is the cheese fries at Nathan's. Peace... Sridhar On Fri, 9 Nov 2001, Gene Ehrich wrote: > At 12:28 AM 11/9/01 -0500, you wrote: > >Hmmm, I noticed that there fries had changed lately. I thought that > >they just cheapened up on them. I don't think that they are as good as > >they used to be. > > The best potatoes in a fast food chain are the potato wedges at KFC. They > coat them with old bay seasoning. > > > > --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > gene@ehrich.com > gehrich@tampabay.rr.com > P.O. Box 3365 Spring Hill Florida 34611-3365 > > http://www.voicenet.com/~generic > Computer & Video Game Garage Sale > > > > > From dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com Fri Nov 9 14:53:27 2001 From: dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com (Douglas Quebbeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:50 2005 Subject: food Message-ID: <7A9BACCEF0171D4FB77019F5104CDD372258A8@jeffserver.tegjeff.com> > On Fri, 9 Nov 2001, Douglas Quebbeman wrote: > > > Our good friend Jeffrey Sharp first said: > > > All right, all right. The poor Okie needs an education. > > > What the hell is Nutella? > > > > Then, shortly thereafter: > > > > > On Thu, 8 Nov 2001, Chris wrote: > > > > > > > My family has direct ancestry to settlers on some of the first ships > > > > [...] How far back is one supposed to go to decide their "heritage" > > > > 100 years? > > > > > > I was born in America. I'm an American. That's how I see it. > > > > So, which is it? > > Yes. A fine answer in the Richard Feynman tradition! In addition to being a Hoosier, I'm a Paver, but that's a State of Mind. -dq From dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com Fri Nov 9 14:54:19 2001 From: dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com (Douglas Quebbeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:50 2005 Subject: food Message-ID: <7A9BACCEF0171D4FB77019F5104CDD372258A9@jeffserver.tegjeff.com> > On Fri, 9 Nov 2001, Douglas Quebbeman wrote: > > > > My personal favorite burger > > > > > > 1. Texas toast > > > 2. barbecue sauce > > > 3. fried onion ring > > > 4. bacon > > > 5. melted cheddar cheese > > > 6. extra well-done meat patty > > > 7. barbecue sauce > > > 8. Texas toast > > > > Yeah... but don't try the Burger King version of this > > I've found the closest thing thus far at Sonic. Yeah, I agree... I just wish Sonic made burgers that were at least as large as the bread they're on... -dq From mcguire at neurotica.com Fri Nov 9 15:03:25 2001 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:50 2005 Subject: food In-Reply-To: RE: food (Douglas Quebbeman) References: <7A9BACCEF0171D4FB77019F5104CDD372258A8@jeffserver.tegjeff.com> Message-ID: <15340.17565.178963.918868@phaduka.neurotica.com> On November 9, Douglas Quebbeman wrote: > In addition to being a Hoosier, I'm a Paver, but > that's a State of Mind. A Paver? Wassat? -Dave -- Dave McGuire St. Petersburg, FL From mcguire at neurotica.com Fri Nov 9 15:02:08 2001 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:50 2005 Subject: OT again Re: food In-Reply-To: OT again Re: food (Marvin Johnston) References: <3BE76EE1.D6F3898D@internet1.net> <5.1.0.14.2.20011108163804.00a04540@mail.30below.com> <3BEB6DB1.E0B863E9@internet1.net> <002e01c1693c$198e6080$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> <4.3.2.7.2.20011109150646.00acb330@pop3.norton.antivirus> <3BEC4197.BA5458D7@rain.org> Message-ID: <15340.17488.64649.642430@phaduka.neurotica.com> On November 9, Marvin Johnston wrote: > > >Adam was made in God's own image, not that of a monkey. > > > > Adam who? > > > > Can't believe anybody really believes that Adam and Eve existed. > > I can't believe there is anybody who doesn't believe in God. I can't believe there's anybody who can't be tolerant of the fact that different people may have different beliefs. And yes dammit, before you flame me, I believe in God! -Dave -- Dave McGuire St. Petersburg, FL From bpope at wordstock.com Fri Nov 9 15:02:59 2001 From: bpope at wordstock.com (Bryan Pope) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:50 2005 Subject: Nutella In-Reply-To: <409.713T2450T12896191optimus@canit.se> from "Iggy Drougge" at Nov 9, 01 09:29:49 pm Message-ID: <200111092102.QAA12453@wordstock.com> > > Bryan Pope skrev: > > >> What is vegemite? I have never heard of it. > > >That is like asking "What is sausage made from? How do they make it?" !! > > >From meat and bowels, of course. Plastic bowels if they're cheap. > But seriously, what is it? Some kind of pâté? > Yeast waste... But it is good for you and *packed* with nutrients. Bryan From Robert_Feldman at jdedwards.com Fri Nov 9 14:58:35 2001 From: Robert_Feldman at jdedwards.com (Feldman, Robert) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:50 2005 Subject: Osborne floppy drives (was Apple Floppy Drives) Message-ID: Interesting how peoples experiences differ. (1) I never had any problems with the drives on my Osborne under moderate to heavy use, but I did have a DD upgrade done. I purchased it in Feb of 1981 and it had a fairly low serial number. (2) I found Elephant disks to be the _worst_ brand I used. I ended up tossing them all out (a box or two). I had much better luck with Maxell and Dysan. -----Original Message----- From: Louis Schulman [mailto:louiss@gate.net] Sent: Friday, November 09, 2001 2:34 PM To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org Subject: Re: Osborne floppy drives (was Apple Floppy Drives) I am happy to hear that. That Osborne was evidently "very low mileage". And, while I don't remember exactly, I may have aligned the drives on that machine, or swapped drives with another to get a pair of dirves that worked together. For some reason, drives that won't work correctly in one Osborne sometimes will in a different machine, even though this would appear to not make sense. Louis On Fri, 9 Nov 2001 01:21:09 -0500, Glen Goodwin wrote: #> From: Louis Schulman # #> What about the single board CP/M machines? I have them too. The disk #drives on the Osborne were, #> based on extensive experience, the least reliable ever made. If one #drive could read what another had #> written, it was a gift from God. And with the double density upgrade, it #was much worse. # #Really?? The Osborne 1 I got from you works perfectly. I've used it to #copy boatloads of disks, and have also used my Kaypro 10 and my Wintel PC #to make disks for it, without fail. # #Glen #0/0 # From vance at ikickass.org Fri Nov 9 15:31:23 2001 From: vance at ikickass.org (One Without Reason) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:50 2005 Subject: food In-Reply-To: <15340.17565.178963.918868@phaduka.neurotica.com> Message-ID: On Fri, 9 Nov 2001, Dave McGuire wrote: > On November 9, Douglas Quebbeman wrote: > > In addition to being a Hoosier, I'm a Paver, but > > that's a State of Mind. > > A Paver? Wassat? A brick? 8-) Peace... Sridhar From vax at knm.yi.org Fri Nov 9 15:34:05 2001 From: vax at knm.yi.org (Matt London) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:50 2005 Subject: Recent Aquisition Message-ID: Hi guys, Just had a MicroVAX II delivered. It's in an intresting configuration - in two 19" racks :&) Anyway, decided to work out what I've got and get things to a point where I can get her up and running. Unfortunatly, she was "decomissioned" using a rather large knife, or bolt cutters, judging from from the damage to just about every cable protruding from the back (including cables connecting HDD's to CPU). Just to summarise what there is (more complete list to follow when I remember to take a pen and paper with me to the office): o two SMD HDD's - I'll get make/model next time I'm down o a cipher (?) tape drive (9 track I think?) - again, I'll have to get the model number later o two BA23 cases (which I brought home to check out) It looks awfully as if someone else has pulled some cards at some point, but here's what's in the BA23's BA23 number 1: Front bays: a TK70 Backplane: A B C D 1 empty 2 KA630 (Quad Width) 3 DATARAM 40918 rev D Assy 62404 Rev D (Quad Width) 4 Emulex QU3210401 (Double Width) 5 Emulex CU021042 Rev F <-- (Quad Width) 6 Emulex CU021042 Rev F <-- (Quad Width) 7 Emulex CC0910401 TQK70 8 empty empty Looks like there are cab kits for the KA630, and I think there's a board (and a surviving cable for!) the CC0910401. (KA630 cab kit in A, B, C, E & F open, D has a blanking plate) BA23 number 2: Front bays: an RX50 (minus cable - a PC floppy cable shouyld do the job right - so long as it's just straight through 34pin, no twist?) Backplane: A B C D 1 empty 2 M9405 3 empty 4 M9047 M9047 5 Emulex TU0210401 Rev C 6 M7555 M9047 7 empty M9404 8 empty No cab kits. (But slots A, D, E and F have no blanking plate and are open) Now to me, that doesn't look right. The BA23 is QQ/CD for the top 4 slots and QQ/QQ serpentine for the bottom 4 - right? I have an awful lot of half cables where they've just been cut right through the middle - that gives me the feeling it might be tricky to get this working. So basically, any pointers on how this might have been configured (there was one HDD and one BA23 in each rack, with a tape drive in the rack which had BA23 number 2 in it. Along with any pointers on the best way to get things up and running again. I didn't get any media for this (besides the two HDDs). It looks like one of the HDD's (both are SMD) has a 3 phase PSU - I'm not going to be able to provide 3 phase (more info tomorrow when I can get to it) Oh, and what's J6 on the BA23 PSU for? it looked to be hooked up to a cable in BA23 number 2's rack. Oh - and I got a DECserver 90M (which I presume is a terminal server). No PSU for it tho - anyone got any clue how to test that? Any thoughts? :&) Thanks, -- Matt --- Web Page: http://knm.yi.org/ http://pkl.net/~matt/ PGP Key fingerprint = 00BF 19FE D5F5 8EAD 2FD5 D102 260E 8BA7 EEE4 8D7F PGP Key http://knm.yi.org/matt-pgp.html From gehrich at tampabay.rr.com Fri Nov 9 15:52:31 2001 From: gehrich at tampabay.rr.com (Gene Ehrich) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:50 2005 Subject: absurdity In-Reply-To: <3BEC4197.BA5458D7@rain.org> References: <3BE76EE1.D6F3898D@internet1.net> <5.1.0.14.2.20011108163804.00a04540@mail.30below.com> <3BEB6DB1.E0B863E9@internet1.net> <002e01c1693c$198e6080$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> <4.3.2.7.2.20011109150646.00acb330@pop3.norton.antivirus> Message-ID: <4.3.2.7.2.20011109164623.00acc290@pop3.norton.antivirus> At 12:50 PM 11/9/01 -0800, you wrote: >Gene Ehrich wrote: > > > > >Adam was made in God's own image, not that of a monkey. > > > > Adam who? > > > > Can't believe anybody really believes that Adam and Eve existed. > >I can't believe there is anybody who doesn't believe in God. First of all we should not be having this conversation but your comments demand an answer. Politics and religion should only be discussed on lists with that allowed. But since it needs an answer: More than half of the worlds population does not believe in a god. Believing in one is certainly ones right but it is absurd. The highest form of life in the universe is man. Now lets drop the conversation or make it private. From vance at ikickass.org Fri Nov 9 16:10:58 2001 From: vance at ikickass.org (One Without Reason) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:50 2005 Subject: DECserver 700 Message-ID: What kind/speed of flash cards are used by the DECserver 700? Peace... Sridhar From mythtech at Mac.com Fri Nov 9 16:44:28 2001 From: mythtech at Mac.com (Chris) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:50 2005 Subject: food Message-ID: > Adam was made in God's own image, not that of a monkey. My only dispute with Adam and Eve (and if anyone wants to have a theological debate with me, that is fine, but lets do it civilly and OFF LIST, as I can wage arguments for and against the existence of god)... My dispute is, according to the King James bible (I am specifying a version, as there are many, but the King James is the one that seems to have been adopted by the mass of Christianity), God made Adam. Then God made Eve. Then Adam and Eve had two sons, one killed the other and then was banished to a far away land. Now the obvious problem is, where did the rest of humanity come from... the obvious answer, Adam and Eve had additional children that just weren't documented. I don't have a problem with that. What I have a problem with is, Cain returns to Adam and Eve... with a wife and children. But if Adam, Eve, and Cain were the ONLY people on Earth when Cain was sent to a far away land... where did he find a wife to have children with? And of course, God can be "proved" and "disproved" (there is actually no one proof one way or the other that has stood up to all tests as far as I have found) with no interaction with the bible, which was written by man, and thus prone to man's interpretation and man's errors in omission, or embellishments, so the whole story of Adam and Eve has no ultimate bearing on the existence or lack there of of God, and in fact, can safely be disregarded as "folk lore" without damaging the underlying belief structure of God. And that is all I will say on this on list (sorry, but theology debates can get very heated very fast and aren't usually a good topic for open public debate... although they can be a very interesting philosophy topic when rationally discussed in a small open minded civil group.) -chris From marvin at rain.org Fri Nov 9 16:50:53 2001 From: marvin at rain.org (Marvin Johnston) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:50 2005 Subject: absurdity References: <3BE76EE1.D6F3898D@internet1.net> <5.1.0.14.2.20011108163804.00a04540@mail.30below.com> <3BEB6DB1.E0B863E9@internet1.net> <002e01c1693c$198e6080$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> <4.3.2.7.2.20011109150646.00acb330@pop3.norton.antivirus> <4.3.2.7.2.20011109164623.00acc290@pop3.norton.antivirus> Message-ID: <3BEC5DCD.FE328910@rain.org> Gene Ehrich wrote: > > At 12:50 PM 11/9/01 -0800, you wrote: > >Gene Ehrich wrote: > > > > > > >Adam was made in God's own image, not that of a monkey. > > > > > > Adam who? > > > > > > Can't believe anybody really believes that Adam and Eve existed. > > > >I can't believe there is anybody who doesn't believe in God. > > First of all we should not be having this conversation but your comments > demand an answer. They do not demand an answer; that was a *choice* YOU made, as did I. We all have our beliefs and having expressed them, there is little that can be added. Faith is an *individual* right and choice ... and I agree that this discussion certainly does not belong on *this* listserver. Besides being OT, it just leads to a fruitless (by definition) debate; one either believes or they do not. From mythtech at Mac.com Fri Nov 9 16:51:34 2001 From: mythtech at Mac.com (Chris) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:50 2005 Subject: absurdity Message-ID: >The highest form >of life in the universe is man. Actually, I dispute that, not because of a belief in god, but in the fact that it is arrogant to think that there is no other intelligent life ANYWHERE in the universe. Sheer mathematical odds almost demand that there is at least life similar to human kind SOMEWHERE else in the universe (discounting freaky but possible Quantum reality theories that would dictate an infinite number of alternate versions of us). -chris From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Fri Nov 9 14:52:46 2001 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (Ben Franchuk) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:50 2005 Subject: absurdity References: <3BE76EE1.D6F3898D@internet1.net> <5.1.0.14.2.20011108163804.00a04540@mail.30below.com> <3BEB6DB1.E0B863E9@internet1.net> <002e01c1693c$198e6080$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> <4.3.2.7.2.20011109150646.00acb330@pop3.norton.antivirus> <4.3.2.7.2.20011109164623.00acc290@pop3.norton.antivirus> Message-ID: <3BEC421E.21F980EC@jetnet.ab.ca> Gene Ehrich wrote: > The highest form > of life in the universe is man. Currently known that is. Who knows what the future may bring. Man still has lots of faults that could get better over time. While life is not rare it is unique and special everywhere. Ben Franchuk. -- Live "Pre-historic Cpu's" -- and you thought they were extinct. www.jetnet.ab.ca/users/bfranchuk/index.html From LFessen106 at aol.com Fri Nov 9 17:00:54 2001 From: LFessen106 at aol.com (LFessen106@aol.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:50 2005 Subject: absurdity Message-ID: <107.856e06e.291dba27@aol.com> In a message dated Fri, 9 Nov 2001 5:03:47 PM Eastern Standard Time, Gene Ehrich writes: > First of all we should not be having this conversation but your comments > demand an answer. Politics and religion should only be discussed on lists > with that allowed. But since it needs an answer: > > More than half of the worlds population does not believe in a god. > Believing in one is certainly ones right but it is absurd. The highest form > of life in the universe is man. > > Now lets drop the conversation or make it private. First I have seen of this conversation, but like you said - YOUR comments need an answer... I am quite sure that hell will be full of people who agreed that there was no God while they were alive. Unfortunaltely it'll be too late then for them to change their mind. Now you may disagree with me, but I have one question to ask you and you can keep the reply to yourself..... Do you really want to take that chance? Rev. Linc Fessenden From KenzieM at sympatico.ca Fri Nov 9 17:37:53 2001 From: KenzieM at sympatico.ca (Mike Kenzie) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:50 2005 Subject: BC18Z & BC19S Message-ID: <006d01c16977$8ea0eba0$0101a8c0@sympatico.ca> Are these interchangeable? I found one reference that says the BC19s connects a 3100 to a VR290 and that the BC18z connects the Vaxstation to the vr290. Are the pinouts the same for these VAXen Collector of Vintage Computers (www.ncf.ca/~ba600) From abusespam at home.com Fri Nov 9 18:03:08 2001 From: abusespam at home.com (Spam Abuse) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:50 2005 Subject: absurdity (TROLL - ignore please) In-Reply-To: <107.856e06e.291dba27@aol.com> Message-ID: This is a Troll Message. In the interest of keeping on topic, please don't respond. on 11/9/01 6:00 PM, LFessen106@aol.com at LFessen106@aol.com wrote: > In a message dated Fri, 9 Nov 2001 5:03:47 PM Eastern Standard Time, Gene > Ehrich writes: > >> First of all we should not be having this conversation but your comments >> demand an answer. Politics and religion should only be discussed on lists >> with that allowed. But since it needs an answer: >> >> More than half of the worlds population does not believe in a god. >> Believing in one is certainly ones right but it is absurd. The highest form >> of life in the universe is man. >> >> Now lets drop the conversation or make it private. > > First I have seen of this conversation, but like you said - YOUR comments need > an answer... I am quite sure that hell will be full of people who agreed that > there was no God while they were alive. Unfortunaltely it'll be too late then > for them to change their mind. Now you may disagree with me, but I have one > question to ask you and you can keep the reply to yourself..... Do you really > want to take that chance? > > Rev. Linc Fessenden > From donm at cts.com Fri Nov 9 18:04:08 2001 From: donm at cts.com (Don Maslin) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:50 2005 Subject: Apple Floppy Drives (was: More Apple Pimpers) In-Reply-To: <3BEB4F24.48411A30@mail.verizon.net> Message-ID: On Thu, 8 Nov 2001, Eric Chomko wrote: > > > Don Maslin wrote: > > > > > Certainly! Both the lead screw and the capstan/split-band positioners > > were available. > > Yes, I got those from earlier posts. Cost differntial? > > Eric Reliability and durability vs cost? No contest. - don From mcguire at neurotica.com Fri Nov 9 18:04:59 2001 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:50 2005 Subject: absurdity In-Reply-To: Re: absurdity (LFessen106@aol.com) References: <107.856e06e.291dba27@aol.com> Message-ID: <15340.28459.974355.581661@phaduka.neurotica.com> On November 9, LFessen106@aol.com wrote: > First I have seen of this conversation, but like you said - YOUR comments need an answer... I am quite sure that hell will be full of people who agreed that there was no God while they were alive. Unfortunaltely it'll be too late then for them to change their mind. Now you may disagree with me, but I have one question to ask you and you can keep the reply to yourself..... Do you really want to take that chance? It could also be argued that there's something wrong with the idea of believing in God purely to keep oneself out of hell -Dave -- Dave McGuire St. Petersburg, FL From geoffrob at stmarks.pp.catholic.edu.au Fri Nov 9 18:07:22 2001 From: geoffrob at stmarks.pp.catholic.edu.au (Geoff Roberts) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:50 2005 Subject: Nutella References: Message-ID: <003301c1697b$ad335180$0300a8c0@geoff> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Chris Kennedy" To: Sent: Saturday, November 10, 2001 3:29 AM Subject: RE: Nutella > Chad Fernandez wrote: > > What is vegemite? I have never heard of it. You don't know any Australians do you? :^) > The food of the gods or one of the foulest tasting substances > on the planet, depending on who you ask. It's also, in effect, > a wonderful example of "waste stream utilization". Interestng description. > Vegemite is a dark brown pasty substance with a modestly stiff > consistency. Looks a lot like shoe polish. It's concentrated > yeast extract; the ingredients list read "Yeast extract, salt, > mineral salt, malt extract, natural colour, vegetable extract, > thiamine, riboflavin, niacin". Favoured kids breakfast (and school lunch/recess.....) spread in Australia. Now owned by Kraft, a US company. Favoured by parents too as it contains very little sugar and is actually very good for growing kids. Kids grow up with it and usually carry the 'taste' for it into adulthood. Most Yanks consider it child abuse to force this on children, however the kids LIKE it and we think the same about (Peanut Butter and Jelly- or in English, Peanut Paste and Jam) Erk. I like vegemite (having been raised on it). I also like Peanut paste, I like various jams too, but peanut and jam together is a needle pinner on the yuckometer. > The most common way to eat this stuff is to spread a thin layer > on buttered toast, but I've developed a sufficient immunity > as to slather the stuff on. The flavour is very strong, most people that try it the first time put too much on and get put off permanently, it's an acquired taste, like chilli I guess. Kids don't go thru this, some parents put it on kids dummies when they are younger. By the time they are 2 or 3 they have it on toast at least daily. > It's also used in cooking, although > I've yet to try any such dish and somehow the thought of > Vegemite soup ranks right up there with a five-course meal of uni. Not unlike Bovril. (British beef based drink made from a dark looking paste) Oddly enough it can be rather pleasant, especially in a gun pit at 3am on a freezing, raining August morning when you are on guard duty and knee deep in water, sipping it from a kidney cup. Because it's hot, smells good and you ran out of coffee and sugar 3 hours ago. cheers Geoff Roberts Computer Systems Manager Saint Mark's College Port Pirie, South Australia geoffrob@stmarks.pp.catholic.edu.au From korpela at ssl.berkeley.edu Fri Nov 9 18:09:40 2001 From: korpela at ssl.berkeley.edu (Eric J. Korpela) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:50 2005 Subject: absurdity In-Reply-To: <107.856e06e.291dba27@aol.com> from "LFessen106@aol.com" at "Nov 9, 2001 06:00:54 pm" Message-ID: <200111100009.QAA25744@ellie.ssl.berkeley.edu> > First I have seen of this conversation, but like you said - YOUR comments > need an answer... I am quite sure that hell will be full of people who > agreed that there was no God while they were alive. Unfortunaltely it'll > be too late then for them to change their mind. Now you may disagree with > me, but I have one question to ask you and you can keep the reply to > yourself..... Do you really want to take that chance? Haven't we all outgrown Pascal's wager? More people believe in gods other than the one you beleive in. Which of the 10,000 gods we've worshipped throughout history is the right one? The odds would suggest you've chosen the wrong one. Do you really want to take that chance? You'd better worship them all. Allah, Ganesh, Zeus, Thor, Krishna, and David Koresh are all waiting on your response. Eric From LFessen106 at aol.com Fri Nov 9 18:14:32 2001 From: LFessen106 at aol.com (LFessen106@aol.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:50 2005 Subject: absurdity (TROLL - ignore please) Message-ID: <2d.13d2e612.291dcb69@aol.com> In a message dated Fri, 9 Nov 2001 7:10:19 PM Eastern Standard Time, Spam Abuse writes: > This is a Troll Message. In the interest of keeping on topic, please don't > respond. > > > on 11/9/01 6:00 PM, LFessen106@aol.com at LFessen106@aol.com wrote: > > > In a message dated Fri, 9 Nov 2001 5:03:47 PM Eastern Standard Time, Gene > > Ehrich writes: > > > >> First of all we should not be having this conversation but your comments > >> demand an answer. Politics and religion should only be discussed on lists > >> with that allowed. But since it needs an answer: > >> > >> More than half of the worlds population does not believe in a god. > >> Believing in one is certainly ones right but it is absurd. The highest form > >> of life in the universe is man. > >> > >> Now lets drop the conversation or make it private. > > > > First I have seen of this conversation, but like you said - YOUR comments need > > an answer... I am quite sure that hell will be full of people who agreed that > > there was no God while they were alive. Unfortunaltely it'll be too late then > > for them to change their mind. Now you may disagree with me, but I have one > > question to ask you and you can keep the reply to yourself..... Do you really > > want to take that chance? > > > > Rev. Linc Fessenden > > Actually it's not a troll at all. I am responding legitimately to a post on a list I have been subscribed to for years. If you notice in my post above I asked for no responce myself. I find it interesting that you all can banter back and fourth about God, but as soon as a Christian says something I am labeled a "Troll".. Hmmm.? From LFessen106 at aol.com Fri Nov 9 18:17:35 2001 From: LFessen106 at aol.com (LFessen106@aol.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:50 2005 Subject: absurdity Message-ID: <128.7511b33.291dcc20@aol.com> In a message dated Fri, 9 Nov 2001 7:14:54 PM Eastern Standard Time, Dave McGuire writes: > It could also be argued that there's something wrong with the idea of > believing in God purely to keep oneself out of hell > > -Dave Yeah It can indeed, but you have to start somewhere right? :-) Anyhow Dave, did you finally get settled down there? I see you're finally getting to your emails again! -Linc. (the Troll - I guess?) From donm at cts.com Fri Nov 9 18:22:15 2001 From: donm at cts.com (Don Maslin) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:50 2005 Subject: Alignment Disks In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20011108224433.03697db0@mail.zipcon.net> Message-ID: On Thu, 8 Nov 2001, Geoff Reed wrote: > Does anyone have a source for a 5 1/4 inch alignment disk? I've got a few > floppies for my N* that are outta alignment.... > I have not checked this lately, but you might check with: Accurite Technologies, Inc. 231 Charcot Avenue San Jose CA 95131-1107 408-433-1980 voice 408-433-1716 fax www.accurite.com - don From mcguire at neurotica.com Fri Nov 9 18:22:59 2001 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:50 2005 Subject: Nutella In-Reply-To: Re: Nutella (Geoff Roberts) References: <003301c1697b$ad335180$0300a8c0@geoff> Message-ID: <15340.29539.784187.914346@phaduka.neurotica.com> On November 10, Geoff Roberts wrote: > Most Yanks consider it child abuse to force this on children, however the > kids LIKE it > and we think the same about (Peanut Butter and Jelly- or in English, Peanut > Paste and Jam) Erk. > I like vegemite (having been raised on it). I also like Peanut paste, I like > various jams too, but peanut and > jam together is a needle pinner on the yuckometer. Really? Wow, I really like them together, so do most people (Americans, that is) I know. But then, I was raised on it. > Kids don't go thru this, some parents put it on kids dummies when they are > younger. By the time they are 2 or 3 they have it on toast at least daily. What would be the American English translation of "dummies" in this context? -Dave -- Dave McGuire St. Petersburg, FL From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Nov 9 17:16:21 2001 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:50 2005 Subject: Atari ST cartridge port In-Reply-To: <721.713T1600T12595565optimus@canit.se> from "Iggy Drougge" at Nov 9, 1 08:59:32 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 835 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20011109/ab79dcd6/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Nov 9 17:13:01 2001 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:50 2005 Subject: Missing was Re: OS9 or Flex09 on 8" disk needed In-Reply-To: <770.713T50T12613187optimus@canit.se> from "Iggy Drougge" at Nov 9, 1 09:01:01 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 83 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20011109/437a1574/attachment.ksh From pete at dunnington.u-net.com Fri Nov 9 12:48:57 2001 From: pete at dunnington.u-net.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:50 2005 Subject: Windows, std OS in Hell In-Reply-To: Bill Pechter "Re: Windows, std OS in Hell" (Nov 9, 9:46) References: <200111091446.JAA06356@stage21.ureach.com> Message-ID: <10111091848.ZM6344@mindy.dunnington.u-net.com> On Nov 9, 9:46, Bill Pechter wrote: > ---- On Fri, 09 Nov 2001, Geoff Reed (geoffr@zipcon.net) wrote: > > Nope, WFW3.11, Win95 and Win98 were designed as "small office > / home > > operating systems" and were never given support for LPR > protocol as you > > weren't expected to see that in a SOHO / Workgroup or Home > setting. > There are lpr drivers available as shareware or commercial > products for Win3.x, Win95 and higher. > > Most of the third party add on printer servers come with an lpr > capability for Win9x and there's a shareware one on Simtel for > Windows 3.x with a winsock. > > Lan Workplace also had one from Novell. You can also do it from any version of PCNFS. -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager University of York From mcguire at neurotica.com Fri Nov 9 18:29:11 2001 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:50 2005 Subject: absurdity In-Reply-To: Re: absurdity (LFessen106@aol.com) References: <128.7511b33.291dcc20@aol.com> Message-ID: <15340.29911.734185.46636@phaduka.neurotica.com> On November 9, LFessen106@aol.com wrote: > Yeah It can indeed, but you have to start somewhere right? :-) Anyhow Dave, did you finally get settled down there? I see you're finally getting to your emails again! I'm at my mom's place in Treasure Island at the moment...I've got work to do, and there's connectivity here. My stuff is piled up in boxes at my new place in St. Petersburg about ten minutes away. I go over there for a few hours every day and do more stuff. The next project is to scope out the breaker box and put in two 30A 220V circuits for the APC Matrix5000 UPSes and start putting the computer room together. But for now I have my main desktop machine set up here at my mom's place talking through the NATed network I put together for her. It's working out pretty well so far; at least I can get some work done.. -Dave -- Dave McGuire St. Petersburg, FL From pete at dunnington.u-net.com Fri Nov 9 18:33:27 2001 From: pete at dunnington.u-net.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:50 2005 Subject: Marmite In-Reply-To: "Sipke de Wal" "Re: Marmite" (Nov 9, 20:42) References: <200111091605.LAA23226@wordstock.com> <4.3.2.7.2.20011109135349.00ad2100@pop3.norton.antivirus> <006901c16956$aa8f3360$030101ac@boll.casema.net> Message-ID: <10111100033.ZM6646@mindy.dunnington.u-net.com> On Nov 9, 20:42, Sipke de Wal wrote: > Marmite is a kinda fermented soya molasses that > you can spread on a cheese-sandwich. I suppose it has a consistency something like molasses (certainly more like that than like pate) but it contains neither molasses nor soya. It's almost all yeast extract (leftover from brewing, originally). -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager University of York From healyzh at aracnet.com Fri Nov 9 18:33:31 2001 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:50 2005 Subject: OT: Re: absurdity (TROLL - ignore please) In-Reply-To: from "Spam Abuse" at Nov 09, 2001 07:03:08 PM Message-ID: <200111100033.fAA0XVh24938@shell1.aracnet.com> > on 11/9/01 6:00 PM, LFessen106@aol.com at LFessen106@aol.com wrote: > > > In a message dated Fri, 9 Nov 2001 5:03:47 PM Eastern Standard Time, Gene > > Ehrich writes: > > > >> First of all we should not be having this conversation but your comments > >> demand an answer. Politics and religion should only be discussed on lists > >> with that allowed. But since it needs an answer: > >> > >> More than half of the worlds population does not believe in a god. > >> Believing in one is certainly ones right but it is absurd. The highest form > >> of life in the universe is man. > >> > >> Now lets drop the conversation or make it private. > > > > First I have seen of this conversation, but like you said - YOUR comments need > > an answer... I am quite sure that hell will be full of people who agreed that > > there was no God while they were alive. Unfortunaltely it'll be too late then > > for them to change their mind. Now you may disagree with me, but I have one > > question to ask you and you can keep the reply to yourself..... Do you really > > want to take that chance? > > > > Rev. Linc Fessenden > > > > > This is a Troll Message. In the interest of keeping on topic, please don't > respond. > > Why was what Linc said a "Troll Message"? If anything the message posted by Gene Ehrich was the Troll! Does the fact that some of us here believe in God scare you? Perhaps a part of you realizes the insanity of denying the existance of God. Perhaps that's why you choose to mask your identity? Why is it that in a Country that claims to support "Religious Freedom" and "Tolerance" that Christians are ridiculed for thier beliefs? Zane From donm at cts.com Fri Nov 9 18:46:34 2001 From: donm at cts.com (Don Maslin) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:50 2005 Subject: food In-Reply-To: <7A9BACCEF0171D4FB77019F5104CDD372258A3@jeffserver.tegjeff.com> Message-ID: On Fri, 9 Nov 2001, Douglas Quebbeman wrote: > > > Mmm, greens and a juicy steak burned to a crisp. > > > > > Poor steak... :( *IMHO*, steak is only good served blue rare... > > After the first time I ate a steak rare, I came to understand > what the creators of steak sauces appear to be trying to re-create... > the actual taste of meat. > > But I want mine cooked enough that it's hot inside... I cut into > it and detect cold temperature, the steak goes back. > > -dq > Yup! Bring it back up to body temperature. - don From vze2mnvr at verizon.net Fri Nov 9 18:47:15 2001 From: vze2mnvr at verizon.net (Ian Koller) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:50 2005 Subject: absurdity References: Message-ID: <3BEC7913.91404D3F@verizon.net> > no other intelligent life I wouldn't be too sure life here is intelligent. After reading this list for a while, it seems most ( but fortunately not all ) are either idiots or raving lunatics. Chris wrote: > > >The highest form > >of life in the universe is man. > > Actually, I dispute that, not because of a belief in god, but in the fact > that it is arrogant to think that there is no other intelligent life > ANYWHERE in the universe. Sheer mathematical odds almost demand that > there is at least life similar to human kind SOMEWHERE else in the > universe (discounting freaky but possible Quantum reality theories that > would dictate an infinite number of alternate versions of us). > > -chris > > From ernestls at home.com Fri Nov 9 18:50:08 2001 From: ernestls at home.com (Ernest) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:50 2005 Subject: absurdity In-Reply-To: <15340.29911.734185.46636@phaduka.neurotica.com> Message-ID: What the hell is wrong with you people? First Food, then Nutella, and now this. No wonder I don't pay much attention to this list anymore. E. From spectre at stockholm.ptloma.edu Fri Nov 9 18:56:56 2001 From: spectre at stockholm.ptloma.edu (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:51 2005 Subject: food In-Reply-To: from Chris at "Nov 9, 1 05:44:28 pm" Message-ID: <200111100056.QAA07978@stockholm.ptloma.edu> > And that is all I will say on this on list (sorry, but theology debates > can get very heated very fast and aren't usually a good topic for open > public debate... although they can be a very interesting philosophy topic > when rationally discussed in a small open minded civil group.) I think this is well put. I am personally Christian, but arguments like this rage without resolution and just end up making everyone irritated at everyone else. IMO, the belief and disbelief in a heavenly being are both steps of faith that ultimately are both unproven. Hence belief. I'd love to talk about it but somewhere else please. Besides, I'd rather talk about Commodore 64s here :-) Now, 6502 programming -- that's Nirvana to me! -- ----------------------------- personal page: http://www.armory.com/~spectre/ -- Cameron Kaiser, Point Loma Nazarene University * ckaiser@stockholm.ptloma.edu -- For every credibility gap, there is a gullibility fill. -- R. Clopton ------ From vze2mnvr at verizon.net Fri Nov 9 18:51:39 2001 From: vze2mnvr at verizon.net (Ian Koller) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:51 2005 Subject: Apple Floppy Drives (was: More Apple Pimpers) References: Message-ID: <3BEC7A1B.647179BF@verizon.net> Fred, I've got a circular slide rule that fits in your shirt pocket and has formulas, conversion tables, physical constants, etc. and even a periodic table either on the back or on a pull out card. That one is so neat, I'll never let it go. "Fred Cisin (XenoSoft)" wrote: > > On Thu, 8 Nov 2001, Feldman, Robert wrote: > > (BTW, my 14-year old son has three slide rules and was quite interested in > > the giant one up on the wall in a hall at his high school.) > > A friend of mine has one of those. I'm envious. From spectre at stockholm.ptloma.edu Fri Nov 9 19:08:37 2001 From: spectre at stockholm.ptloma.edu (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:51 2005 Subject: Nutella In-Reply-To: from Chris Kennedy at "Nov 9, 1 07:26:08 am" Message-ID: <200111100108.RAA10664@stockholm.ptloma.edu> > > If you are a chocolate lover you gotta try it. > > Yep. Then again my tastes may be suspect. I'm probably one > of about six US-born individuals who actually _likes_ Vegemite. I like it too, but on the other hand I'm half-Australian and it's probably genetic. -- ----------------------------- personal page: http://www.armory.com/~spectre/ -- Cameron Kaiser, Point Loma Nazarene University * ckaiser@stockholm.ptloma.edu -- This message will self-destruct in five seconds. Good luck, Jim. -- M:I ---- From jhellige at earthlink.net Fri Nov 9 19:04:27 2001 From: jhellige at earthlink.net (Jeff Hellige) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:51 2005 Subject: head-positioners - (was Apple Floppy Drives (was: More Apple Pimpers)) In-Reply-To: <3BEB5173.696557B4@mail.verizon.net> References: <003601c1689b$84ec9000$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> <3BEB5173.696557B4@mail.verizon.net> Message-ID: >Wasn't the Osborne I floppies Siemens? My O1 has the DD upgrade and I don't particularly feel like taking it apart just to find out what kind of drives are in it, but looking at the Executives tech manual, I've been unable to find a spot in it where it specifies a specific drive model/manufacturer. It just states that the drives supplied meet ANSI standards, though other non-ANSI drives are also supported, the main difference being +12V (versus ground) on pins 11, 13, 15, and 17; supplying +5V (versus ground) on pins 21, 23, and 25; and supplying +5V MOTOR ON from pin 16. Jeff -- Home of the TRS-80 Model 2000 FAQ File http://www.cchaven.com http://www.geocities.com/siliconvalley/lakes/6757 From donm at cts.com Fri Nov 9 19:14:52 2001 From: donm at cts.com (Don Maslin) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:51 2005 Subject: absurdity In-Reply-To: <200111100009.QAA25744@ellie.ssl.berkeley.edu> Message-ID: On Fri, 9 Nov 2001, Eric J. Korpela wrote: > > First I have seen of this conversation, but like you said - YOUR comments > > need an answer... I am quite sure that hell will be full of people who > > agreed that there was no God while they were alive. Unfortunaltely it'll > > be too late then for them to change their mind. Now you may disagree with > > me, but I have one question to ask you and you can keep the reply to > > yourself..... Do you really want to take that chance? > > Haven't we all outgrown Pascal's wager? More people believe in gods other > than the one you beleive in. Which of the 10,000 gods we've worshipped > throughout history is the right one? The odds would suggest you've chosen > the wrong one. > > Do you really want to take that chance? You'd better worship them all. > Allah, Ganesh, Zeus, Thor, Krishna, and David Koresh are all waiting on > your response. > > Eric > And simultaneously, you might want to entertain the probability that more people have been killed in the name of religion than have been saved by it. - don From dmabry at mich.com Fri Nov 9 19:43:54 2001 From: dmabry at mich.com (Dave Mabry) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:51 2005 Subject: Anyone know of an Intel iPDS for sale? Message-ID: <3BEC865A.535A6D8F@mich.com> Just trying to help out someone who needs CP/M for an Intel MDS and I needed to get some files off a 5 1/4" diskette from my iPDS, and damn! It was dead. I will work on it when I have time, but in the mean time, if anyone might have an old Intel iPDS taking up space and might want to sell it...please contact me. I'm in the Detroit area. Thanks. Dave -- Dave Mabry dmabry@mich.com Dossin Museum Underwater Research Team NACD #2093 From chris at mainecoon.com Fri Nov 9 20:26:28 2001 From: chris at mainecoon.com (Chris Kennedy) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:51 2005 Subject: Nutella In-Reply-To: <003301c1697b$ad335180$0300a8c0@geoff> Message-ID: Geoff Roberts wrote: [I wrote] > > The food of the gods or one of the foulest tasting substances > > on the planet, depending on who you ask. It's also, in effect, > > a wonderful example of "waste stream utilization". > > Interestng description. Actually, I dropped the ball on that one. I meant to elaborate and point out that the source of the yeast used to be the trub left over from brewing, hence the "waste stream utilization" comment -- although I don't know if that's still the source. [snip] > The flavour is very strong, most people that try it the first time put too > much on and get put off permanently, Yes. I tell those new to Vegemite to fix buttered toast and then just gently pass the knife with Vegemite over said toast -- about one step more intimate than just showing the toast the jar. Properly introduced the taste seems to grow on people. [snip] > Not unlike Bovril. (British beef based drink made from a dark looking paste) Bovril! I'd actually forgotten about that stuff! > Oddly enough it can be rather pleasant, especially in a gun pit at 3am on a > freezing, raining August morning when you are on guard duty and knee deep in > water, sipping it from a kidney cup. Because it's hot, smells good and you > ran out of coffee and sugar 3 hours ago. *grins* Yeah, I can see that. The last time I had Bovril was at a football game where it had been pissing down rain throughout the match. We were all so miserable that it actually tasted good and we managed to avoid asking (out loud at least) what the hell "beef extract" really consisted of. Cheers, Chris. -- Chris Kennedy chris@mainecoon.com http://www.mainecoon.com PGP fingerprint: 4E99 10B6 7253 B048 6685 6CBC 55E1 20A3 108D AB97 From dittman at dittman.net Fri Nov 9 20:27:55 2001 From: dittman at dittman.net (Eric Dittman) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:51 2005 Subject: DECserver 700 In-Reply-To: from "One Without Reason" at Nov 09, 2001 05:10:58 PM Message-ID: <200111100227.fAA2RtV04932@narnia.int.dittman.net> > What kind/speed of flash cards are used by the DECserver 700? They are two meg cards. If you don't have a source I've got some old HSJxx flash cards that work with them I'd be willing to sell. -- Eric Dittman dittman@dittman.net Check out the DEC Enthusiasts Club at http://www.dittman.net/ From edick at idcomm.com Fri Nov 9 20:33:52 2001 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:51 2005 Subject: Windows, std OS in Hell References: <200111091802.KAA18412@ellie.ssl.berkeley.edu> Message-ID: <003a01c16990$23232f00$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> speaking of HELL ..... I recently read about an engineer who, on passing, was dispatched to the pearly gates, only to be rejected for some inexplicable reason. On his subsequent arrival at the "other place" he began to snoop around for things to tinker with, and, after a while, the running cold water, air conditioning, filtration system, etc, were all working, and the agonized screams of many of the inhabitants had subsided, so a background music system was installed, along with a full range of satellite TV. Eventually God came around to call on Satan, who had, up to that point, kept news of the modifications to his digs quiet. The first thing that came up in their meeting, of course, was the relative comfort and elegance of the surroundings, about which Beelzebub remarked, "... well, yes, that engineer you sent me didn't like it the way it was, so he fixed a few things that had been broken down for some time." "Really? Well, I want him back!" was the Almighty's response, to which Mephistopheles quickly remarked, "No, you can't have him! You had your chance, and you sent him here. Now he's mine." "I'll sue!" replied the Creator, to which the Devil smiled, and said, "Now, just where are YOU going to get a lawyer?" Dick ----- Original Message ----- From: "Eric J. Korpela" To: Sent: Friday, November 09, 2001 11:02 AM Subject: Re: Windows, std OS in Hell > > Nope, WFW3.11, Win95 and Win98 were designed as "small office / home > > operating systems" and were never given support for LPR protocol as you > > weren't expected to see that in a SOHO / Workgroup or Home setting. (In > > yet another previous incarnation I was a support tech for POS at Microsoft > > [Personal Operating Systems] ) > > I could have sworn I had set up Win95 machines with support for unix printers. > I don't recall that possibility in Win98, which seemed to ship with a reduced > driver set than Win95. > > Eric > > From dittman at dittman.net Fri Nov 9 20:37:40 2001 From: dittman at dittman.net (Eric Dittman) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:51 2005 Subject: Recent Aquisition In-Reply-To: from "Matt London" at Nov 09, 2001 09:34:05 PM Message-ID: <200111100237.fAA2bed04969@narnia.int.dittman.net> > Oh - and I got a DECserver 90M (which I presume is a terminal server). No > PSU for it tho - anyone got any clue how to test that? I've got a DECserver 90M. It is a terminal server that speaks LAT and TCP/IP. If you want, I've got an extra power supply I'll sell you. -- Eric Dittman dittman@dittman.net Check out the DEC Enthusiasts Club at http://www.dittman.net/ From edick at idcomm.com Fri Nov 9 20:53:09 2001 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:51 2005 Subject: absurdity References: <3BE76EE1.D6F3898D@internet1.net> <5.1.0.14.2.20011108163804.00a04540@mail.30below.com> <3BEB6DB1.E0B863E9@internet1.net> <002e01c1693c$198e6080$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> <4.3.2.7.2.20011109150646.00acb330@pop3.norton.antivirus> <4.3.2.7.2.20011109164623.00acc290@pop3.norton.antivirus> <3BEC5DCD.FE328910@rain.org> Message-ID: <008201c16992$d4789ae0$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> What I can't understand is that there are so many folks claiming to have "faith" yet who are always projecting their purported beliefs on others in search of validation. If you don't have enough faith in what you profess to believe, then work it out within yourself before you go bouncing it off others, who may have their own issues to work out. I can't believe there are people out there who don't know that God looks just like a monkey. Dick ----- Original Message ----- From: "Marvin Johnston" To: Sent: Friday, November 09, 2001 3:50 PM Subject: Re: absurdity > > Gene Ehrich wrote: > > > > At 12:50 PM 11/9/01 -0800, you wrote: > > >Gene Ehrich wrote: > > > > > > > > >Adam was made in God's own image, not that of a monkey. > > > > > > > > Adam who? > > > > > > > > Can't believe anybody really believes that Adam and Eve existed. > > > > > >I can't believe there is anybody who doesn't believe in God. > > > > First of all we should not be having this conversation but your comments > > demand an answer. > > They do not demand an answer; that was a *choice* YOU made, as did I. We > all have our beliefs and having expressed them, there is little that can > be added. Faith is an *individual* right and choice ... and I agree that > this discussion certainly does not belong on *this* listserver. Besides > being OT, it just leads to a fruitless (by definition) debate; one > either believes or they do not. > > From edick at idcomm.com Fri Nov 9 20:54:41 2001 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:51 2005 Subject: absurdity References: Message-ID: <008e01c16993$0b77e3c0$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Chris" To: "Classic Computer" Sent: Friday, November 09, 2001 3:51 PM Subject: Re: absurdity > ... an infinite number of alternate versions of us ... > EEEEEK! > > -chris > > > > From edick at idcomm.com Fri Nov 9 20:58:17 2001 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:51 2005 Subject: absurdity References: <200111100009.QAA25744@ellie.ssl.berkeley.edu> Message-ID: <00a801c16993$8c64a680$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> There's been so much chatter about FOOD that we're now into the common but inappropriate after-dinner conversation. Dick ----- Original Message ----- From: "Eric J. Korpela" To: Sent: Friday, November 09, 2001 5:09 PM Subject: Re: absurdity > > First I have seen of this conversation, but like you said - YOUR comments > > need an answer... I am quite sure that hell will be full of people who > > agreed that there was no God while they were alive. Unfortunaltely it'll > > be too late then for them to change their mind. Now you may disagree with > > me, but I have one question to ask you and you can keep the reply to > > yourself..... Do you really want to take that chance? > > Haven't we all outgrown Pascal's wager? More people believe in gods other > than the one you beleive in. Which of the 10,000 gods we've worshipped > throughout history is the right one? The odds would suggest you've chosen > the wrong one. > > Do you really want to take that chance? You'd better worship them all. > Allah, Ganesh, Zeus, Thor, Krishna, and David Koresh are all waiting on > your response. > > Eric > > From geoffr at zipcon.net Fri Nov 9 21:18:54 2001 From: geoffr at zipcon.net (Geoff Reed) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:51 2005 Subject: Windows, std OS in Hell In-Reply-To: <200111091446.JAA06356@stage21.ureach.com> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20011109191720.034c3ec0@mail.zipcon.net> At 09:46 AM 11/9/01 -0500, you wrote: >There are lpr drivers available as shareware or commercial >products for Win3.x, Win95 and higher. > >Most of the third party add on printer servers come with an lpr >capability for Win9x and there's a shareware one on Simtel for >Windows 3.x with a winsock. > >Lan Workplace also had one from Novell. Yup, but MS never included/coded it as they felt there was little use for that support... I really doubt that wfw would have come about except MS was cheesed off that novell was running on top of Dos and under windows to give regular windows users (and dos users) networking support. From gehrich at tampabay.rr.com Fri Nov 9 21:26:02 2001 From: gehrich at tampabay.rr.com (Gene Ehrich) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:51 2005 Subject: absurdity In-Reply-To: <107.856e06e.291dba27@aol.com> Message-ID: <4.3.2.7.2.20011109222408.00ad4430@pop3.norton.antivirus> At 06:00 PM 11/9/01 -0500, you wrote: >First I have seen of this conversation, but like you said - YOUR comments >need an answer... I am quite sure that hell will be full of people who >agreed that there was no God while they were alive. Unfortunaltely it'll >be too late then for them to change their mind. Now you may disagree with >me, but I have one question to ask you and you can keep the reply to >yourself..... Do you really want to take that chance? Take a chance on what? It's not taking a chance at all. I'll ask you the same type of question? When you lose a tooth do you want to take a chance of not putting it under your pillow for the tooth fairy. One is as likely as the other. From gehrich at tampabay.rr.com Fri Nov 9 21:28:30 2001 From: gehrich at tampabay.rr.com (Gene Ehrich) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:51 2005 Subject: absurdity In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <4.3.2.7.2.20011109222647.00ae8850@pop3.norton.antivirus> At 05:51 PM 11/9/01 -0500, you wrote: >Sheer mathematical odds almost demand that >there is at least life similar to human kind SOMEWHERE else in the >universe There is no doubt in my mind that there is intelligent life elsewhere in the universe. On those planets there is something similar to man and probably equal as a form of life. May be ahead or behind us but not a higher form. --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- gene@ehrich.com gehrich@tampabay.rr.com P.O. Box 3365 Spring Hill Florida 34611-3365 http://www.voicenet.com/~generic Computer & Video Game Garage Sale From gehrich at tampabay.rr.com Fri Nov 9 21:29:09 2001 From: gehrich at tampabay.rr.com (Gene Ehrich) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:51 2005 Subject: absurdity In-Reply-To: <200111100009.QAA25744@ellie.ssl.berkeley.edu> References: <107.856e06e.291dba27@aol.com> Message-ID: <4.3.2.7.2.20011109222859.00ad42a0@pop3.norton.antivirus> At 04:09 PM 11/9/01 -0800, you wrote: >Do you really want to take that chance? You'd better worship them all. >Allah, Ganesh, Zeus, Thor, Krishna, and David Koresh are all waiting on >your response. Well said --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- gene@ehrich.com gehrich@tampabay.rr.com P.O. Box 3365 Spring Hill Florida 34611-3365 http://www.voicenet.com/~generic Computer & Video Game Garage Sale From gehrich at tampabay.rr.com Fri Nov 9 21:29:40 2001 From: gehrich at tampabay.rr.com (Gene Ehrich) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:51 2005 Subject: absurdity In-Reply-To: <15340.28459.974355.581661@phaduka.neurotica.com> References: <107.856e06e.291dba27@aol.com> Message-ID: <4.3.2.7.2.20011109222921.00ae9390@pop3.norton.antivirus> At 07:04 PM 11/9/01 -0500, you wrote: >It could also be argued that there's something wrong with the idea of >believing in God purely to keep oneself out of hell Which is what most god believers do. --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- gene@ehrich.com gehrich@tampabay.rr.com P.O. Box 3365 Spring Hill Florida 34611-3365 http://www.voicenet.com/~generic Computer & Video Game Garage Sale From gehrich at tampabay.rr.com Fri Nov 9 21:30:38 2001 From: gehrich at tampabay.rr.com (Gene Ehrich) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:51 2005 Subject: absurdity In-Reply-To: References: <200111100009.QAA25744@ellie.ssl.berkeley.edu> Message-ID: <4.3.2.7.2.20011109223027.00ae46d0@pop3.norton.antivirus> At 05:14 PM 11/9/01 -0800, you wrote: >And simultaneously, you might want to entertain the probability that >more people have been killed in the name of religion than have been >saved by it. No doubt about that. --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- gene@ehrich.com gehrich@tampabay.rr.com P.O. Box 3365 Spring Hill Florida 34611-3365 http://www.voicenet.com/~generic Computer & Video Game Garage Sale From gehrich at tampabay.rr.com Fri Nov 9 21:33:25 2001 From: gehrich at tampabay.rr.com (Gene Ehrich) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:51 2005 Subject: food In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <4.3.2.7.2.20011109223239.00afc410@pop3.norton.antivirus> At 05:44 PM 11/9/01 -0500, you wrote: >And of course, God can be "proved" and "disproved" There is no way to prove it either way. --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- gene@ehrich.com gehrich@tampabay.rr.com P.O. Box 3365 Spring Hill Florida 34611-3365 http://www.voicenet.com/~generic Computer & Video Game Garage Sale From gehrich at tampabay.rr.com Fri Nov 9 21:40:00 2001 From: gehrich at tampabay.rr.com (Gene Ehrich) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:51 2005 Subject: OT: Re: absurdity (TROLL - ignore please) In-Reply-To: <200111100033.fAA0XVh24938@shell1.aracnet.com> References: Message-ID: <4.3.2.7.2.20011109223512.00ae9a80@pop3.norton.antivirus> At 04:33 PM 11/9/01 -0800, you wrote: > Does the fact that some of us here believe in >God scare you? Absolutely not, why should it. We are all entitled to our beliefs. I don't begrudge you yours, don't begrudge me mine. >Perhaps a part of you realizes the insanity of denying the >existance of God. Denying the existence of something that in no way exists is not insane. Believing that god exists is what is insane but we are all entitled to believe whatever we want to. >Perhaps that's why you choose to mask your identity? Now that is absurd. >Why is it that in a Country that claims to support "Religious Freedom" and >"Tolerance" that Christians are ridiculed for thier beliefs? They are not. The whole conversation started with ridicule in the other direction. --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- gene@ehrich.com gehrich@tampabay.rr.com P.O. Box 3365 Spring Hill Florida 34611-3365 http://www.voicenet.com/~generic Computer & Video Game Garage Sale From SUPRDAVE at aol.com Fri Nov 9 21:44:34 2001 From: SUPRDAVE at aol.com (SUPRDAVE@aol.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:51 2005 Subject: absurdity Message-ID: In a message dated 11/9/2001 10:35:41 PM Eastern Standard Time, gehrich@tampabay.rr.com writes: << >First I have seen of this conversation, but like you said - YOUR comments >need an answer... I am quite sure that hell will be full of people who >agreed that there was no God while they were alive. Unfortunaltely it'll >be too late then for them to change their mind. Now you may disagree with >me, but I have one question to ask you and you can keep the reply to >yourself..... Do you really want to take that chance? Take a chance on what? It's not taking a chance at all. I'll ask you the same type of question? When you lose a tooth do you want to take a chance of not putting it under your pillow for the tooth fairy. One is as likely as the other. >> what the hell is all this bullshit? food and now religion. get ontopic! From optimus at canit.se Fri Nov 9 22:43:44 2001 From: optimus at canit.se (Iggy Drougge) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:51 2005 Subject: (fwd) Mass liquidation of Microchannel hardware in the Washington, D.C. area. Message-ID: <200111100443.FAA20540@uno.canit.se> -- forwarded message -- Path: dos.canit.se!news.netg.se!news-peer-europe.sprintlink.net!news.sprintlink.net!cpk-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!news.gtei.net!newshub2.home.com!news.home.com!news1.rdc1.md.home.com.POSTED!not-for-mail From: Joshua E. Rodd Subject: Mass liquidation of Microchannel hardware in the Washington, D.C. area. Newsgroups: comp.sys.ibm.ps2.hardware Lines: 36 Message-ID: Date: Mon, 05 Nov 2001 15:50:17 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 65.1.135.172 X-Complaints-To: abuse@home.net X-Trace: news1.rdc1.md.home.com 1004975417 65.1.135.172 (Mon, 05 Nov 2001 07:50:17 PST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 05 Nov 2001 07:50:17 PST Organization: Excite@Home - The Leader in Broadband http://home.com/faster Xref: dos.canit.se comp.sys.ibm.ps2.hardware:95480 I have assorted old Microchannel hardware I'd like to get rid of. It's all free for the ttaking--you just have to come over to my house and get it, because I couldn't be bothered to actually try shipping any of this stuff. The more you take with you, the better. Remove the .dot. and _atsign in my e-mail address to reach me and coordinate a pickup time. I have (roughly): 8580-121 (heavily modified, 80386DX 20MHz) - 8MB 8573-121 (P70 80386DX 20MHZ) - 8MB/120MB 8573-401 (P75 80486DX 33MHz) - 16MB/400MB Assorted small (under 1GB) SCSI disks Assorted options, such as: SCSI adapters XGA-2 Display Adapter Image-Adapter/A (3MB) with Print/Scan Option Serial port options IBM-specific SCSI cabling ActionMedia II Display Adapter and Capture Option with cables Three long M-Audio Capture and Playback Adapter/A and one short M-ACPA/A All kinds of other things I forgot about Piles of Token Ring network cards, Microchannel and ISA, 16/4. Two Token Ring 8228s (not sure if they work) Type 1 Token Ring cabling and dozens of Type 1 to RJ-45 baluns Intel EtherExpress 16 and Cabletron E2100 Ethernet adapters I am located in Alexandria, Virginia, near the Seminary Road exit (exit 4) of I-395. All the hardware is in working condition, for the most part. Please respond by e-mail as I may not have a chance to read the newsgroup on a regular basis. Looking forward to sending this stuff to a better home, Joshua Rodd -- end of forwarded message -- -- Vi m?ste vara r?dda om varandra - det ?r det enda reciproka pronomen vi har. From chris at mainecoon.com Fri Nov 9 22:56:24 2001 From: chris at mainecoon.com (Chris Kennedy) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:51 2005 Subject: Nutella In-Reply-To: <15340.29539.784187.914346@phaduka.neurotica.com> Message-ID: Dave McGuire wrote: > What would be the American English translation of "dummies" in this > context? Pacifier. Makes perfect sense if you think about it for a second :-) -- Chris Kennedy chris@mainecoon.com http://www.mainecoon.com PGP fingerprint: 4E99 10B6 7253 B048 6685 6CBC 55E1 20A3 108D AB97 From fernande at internet1.net Fri Nov 9 23:18:25 2001 From: fernande at internet1.net (Chad Fernandez) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:51 2005 Subject: Nutella References: <003301c1697b$ad335180$0300a8c0@geoff> Message-ID: <3BECB8A1.6D42F629@internet1.net> Geoff Roberts wrote: > > > What is vegemite? I have never heard of it. > > You don't know any Australians do you? :^) Nope :-) > Favoured kids breakfast (and school lunch/recess.....) spread in Australia. > Now owned by Kraft, a US company. Kraft is actually part of one of the big tabacco companies now.... but I don't recall which one. > Favoured by parents too as it contains very little sugar and is actually > very good for growing kids. Wow, surprising. I figured it was a kind of junk food type stuff, considering some of the other foods (foods?) we have been discussing. > Kids grow up with it and usually carry the 'taste' for it into adulthood. > Most Yanks consider it child abuse to force this on children, however the > kids LIKE it > and we think the same about (Peanut Butter and Jelly- or in English, Peanut > Paste and Jam) Erk. > I like vegemite (having been raised on it). I also like Peanut paste, I like > various jams too, but peanut and > jam together is a needle pinner on the yuckometer. You don't like Peanut Butter and Jelly? Wow! I guess tastes do vary by country/culture. > The flavour is very strong, most people that try it the first time put too > much on and get put off permanently, > it's an acquired taste, like chilli I guess. The taste of Chilli is acquired? I didn't really like the beans in it when I was little, but most people like it in the US, I think. > Kids don't go thru this, some parents put it on kids dummies when they are > younger. By the time they are 2 or 3 they have it on toast at least daily. What's a dummie? In the US a dummie, is a "dumb" Person.... a stupid person, etc, but used jokingly most of the time, because if you really get someone mad at your, for doing something dumb, they'll call you much worse :-) (it might be dummy, not dummie..... I've never written it down before) > Not unlike Bovril. (British beef based drink made from a dark looking > paste) > Oddly enough it can be rather pleasant, especially in a gun pit at 3am on a > freezing, raining August morning when you are on guard duty and knee deep in > water, sipping it from a kidney cup. Because it's hot, smells good and you > ran out of coffee and sugar 3 hours ago. That sounds absolutely disgusting :-( Chad Fernandez Michigan, USA From fernande at internet1.net Fri Nov 9 23:21:22 2001 From: fernande at internet1.net (Chad Fernandez) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:51 2005 Subject: Nutella References: Message-ID: <3BECB952.3A9E13C@internet1.net> The images certainly aren't plesant.... the last time I saw a cow extract anything...... Chad Fernandez Michigan, USA Chris Kennedy wrote: > The last time I had Bovril was at a > football game where it had been pissing down rain throughout the match. > We were all so miserable that it actually tasted good and we managed > to avoid asking (out loud at least) what the hell "beef extract" really > consisted of. > > Cheers, > Chris. From mcclure3 at home.com Fri Nov 9 23:36:48 2001 From: mcclure3 at home.com (Don McClure) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:51 2005 Subject: Cable and connector source In-Reply-To: <200111092304.RAA14007@opal.tseinc.com> Message-ID: on 11/9/01 6:04 PM, classiccmp-digest at owner-classiccmp-digest@classiccmp.org wrote: > I wouldn't try to solder a mini-DIN if I didn't have to. I'd rather just cut > up a cable and solder the right end to it. > There are some tricks to soldering mini-DINs in an AppleGuide file called > "L?ten am Mac". I think one of them involves getting crimp-on solder shoes > (I'm not aware of the proper English nomenclature). I tried cutting up a PS/2 keyboard cable, but of course the pins are wired different: Personal Iris 4D/2x Keyboard Cable Mini-DIN Pin connects to DB-9 Pin ------------- -------- 1 Keybd Recv 2 2 Mouse Recv 5 3 Ground 6 4 +V 7 5 Keybd Xmit 8 6 N/C PS/2 doesn't use a ground pin, or pin 2, IIRC. So I'm going to find small female crimp on connectors to fasten to the pins on a Radio Shack mini-DIN plug, when I can get to an electronics supply store. Radio Shack doesn't seem to have them. I just don't solder often enough to become proficient at it. Unless somebody has one of those cables... ;) Don McClure Bel Air, MD From mythtech at Mac.com Fri Nov 9 23:47:13 2001 From: mythtech at Mac.com (Chris) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:51 2005 Subject: absurdity Message-ID: <200111100547.XAA20581@opal.tseinc.com> >what the hell is all this bullshit? food and now religion. get ontopic! Ok... what kind of classic computer do you think God used to design the cosmos... while eating his Nutella? :-) -chris From fernande at internet1.net Sat Nov 10 00:05:24 2001 From: fernande at internet1.net (Chad Fernandez) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:51 2005 Subject: OT: food References: Message-ID: <3BECC3A4.89E6DD94@internet1.net> I like the "regular" fries at Arby's. I don't care too much for the curley fries, However. Potatoes and popcorn are the two foods that I eat that I refuse to skimp with the salt.... gotta have salt with both, yum yum :-) Chad Fernandez Michigan, USA One Without Reason wrote: > > No. The best one is the cheese fries at Nathan's. > > Peace... Sridhar From spectre at stockholm.ptloma.edu Sat Nov 10 00:14:17 2001 From: spectre at stockholm.ptloma.edu (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:51 2005 Subject: Nutella In-Reply-To: <3BECB8A1.6D42F629@internet1.net> from Chad Fernandez at "Nov 10, 1 00:18:25 am" Message-ID: <200111100614.WAA08992@stockholm.ptloma.edu> > > Favoured kids breakfast (and school lunch/recess.....) spread in Australia. > > Now owned by Kraft, a US company. > > Kraft is actually part of one of the big tabacco companies now.... but I > don't recall which one. Philip Morris. One wonders how much ash gets incorporated into the stuff these days. -- ----------------------------- personal page: http://www.armory.com/~spectre/ -- Cameron Kaiser, Point Loma Nazarene University * ckaiser@stockholm.ptloma.edu -- Drive defensively ... buy a tank. ------------------------------------------ From spectre at stockholm.ptloma.edu Sat Nov 10 00:17:06 2001 From: spectre at stockholm.ptloma.edu (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:51 2005 Subject: absurdity In-Reply-To: <200111100547.XAA20581@opal.tseinc.com> from Chris at "Nov 10, 1 00:47:13 am" Message-ID: <200111100617.WAA03654@stockholm.ptloma.edu> > >what the hell is all this bullshit? food and now religion. get ontopic! > > Ok... what kind of classic computer do you think God used to design the > cosmos... while eating his Nutella? A Commodore PET 2001. (You asked. :-) -- ----------------------------- personal page: http://www.armory.com/~spectre/ -- Cameron Kaiser, Point Loma Nazarene University * ckaiser@stockholm.ptloma.edu -- Klein bottle for immediate occupancy; inquire within. ---------------------- From fernande at internet1.net Sat Nov 10 00:35:20 2001 From: fernande at internet1.net (Chad Fernandez) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:51 2005 Subject: (fwd) Mass liquidation of Microchannel hardware in the Washington, D.C. area. References: <200111100443.FAA20540@uno.canit.se> Message-ID: <3BECCAA8.AF7A01AD@internet1.net> If someone picks this stuff up, I wouldn't mind getting some of the IBM specific SCSI cabling :-) Chad Fernandez Michigan, USA From fernande at internet1.net Sat Nov 10 00:43:17 2001 From: fernande at internet1.net (Chad Fernandez) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:51 2005 Subject: Nutella References: <200111100614.WAA08992@stockholm.ptloma.edu> Message-ID: <3BECCC85.2C36A8E6@internet1.net> Ah yes, I knew RJR didn't sound right. The Post Cereal plant here in town is now Kraft/Philip Morris. Post being a division of Kraft, now. If I recall correctly, I thought I heard something about Philip Morris planning on splitting off the food division after one of the big Tobacco settlements a year ago. My Favorite Post Cereal is Grapenuts. You know, the main ingredients are gravel, sticks, and bark :-) Chad Fernandez Michigan, USA Cameron Kaiser wrote: > > > > Favoured kids breakfast (and school lunch/recess.....) spread in Australia. > > > Now owned by Kraft, a US company. > > > > Kraft is actually part of one of the big tabacco companies now.... but I > > don't recall which one. > > Philip Morris. One wonders how much ash gets incorporated into the stuff > these days. > > -- > ----------------------------- personal page: http://www.armory.com/~spectre/ -- > Cameron Kaiser, Point Loma Nazarene University * ckaiser@stockholm.ptloma.edu > -- Drive defensively ... buy a tank. ------------------------------------------ From healyzh at aracnet.com Sat Nov 10 01:23:52 2001 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:51 2005 Subject: OT: Re: absurdity (TROLL - ignore please) In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.2.20011109223512.00ae9a80@pop3.norton.antivirus> References: <200111100033.fAA0XVh24938@shell1.aracnet.com> Message-ID: Gene Ehrich wrote: >At 04:33 PM 11/9/01 -0800, you wrote: >>Perhaps that's why you choose to mask your identity? > >Now that is absurd. Just to set the record straight. If you'd look at the message I originally posted you'd note I was replying to comments of one 'Spam Abuse '. Who looks to be a list member from either the San Francisco Bay Area or New Jersey based on the message headers. Obviously you're not masking your identity. Zane -- | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator | | healyzh@aracnet.com (primary) | OpenVMS Enthusiast | | | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | PDP-10 Emulation and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | From mikeford at socal.rr.com Sat Nov 10 01:43:52 2001 From: mikeford at socal.rr.com (Mike Ford) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:51 2005 Subject: food In-Reply-To: References: <200111091304.IAA15620@wordstock.com> Message-ID: >> Poor steak... :( *IMHO*, steak is only good served blue rare... > >Amen, brother -- or as I put it "still moving under it's own power". As my dad used to say, just put the body heat back into it. From sipke at wxs.nl Sat Nov 10 02:21:55 2001 From: sipke at wxs.nl (Sipke de Wal) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:51 2005 Subject: STOP THE OT RANTS! This List is sliding off again Message-ID: <00a501c169c0$de26b300$030101ac@boll.casema.net> About a month ago we were promised guidelines about how to behave on this list! Now I don't mind a few diversions about food practices in different regions around the world. But ....... "Nuke Redmond" is worse cause it's about computer religions.............. And RANTS about religion (or politics for that matter) are likely to inflame the spirits om many on this list. PLEASE no more!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! I too have strong opions on this subject but the list is no place to shout-over strong opions that will ultimately regress to mudslinging or worse. May the listmaster come up with his guidelines RSN. Regards, Sipke de Wal 'Religious and political list-rants should be regarded virri. They seem selfpropagating enough. So everyone who starts one should be branded a Digital Bio-Terrorist" ----------------------------------------------------- http://xgistor.ath.cx ----------------------------------------------------- From vance at ikickass.org Sat Nov 10 03:23:06 2001 From: vance at ikickass.org (One Without Reason) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:51 2005 Subject: DECserver 700 crap (again) Message-ID: Apparently there are a lot of commands that aren't documented in the help, and I don't have the command reference. I have the site preparation and maintenance manual, but I can't find the command reference. I would appreciate any help. Thanks. Peace... Sridhar From mikeford at socal.rr.com Sat Nov 10 02:28:55 2001 From: mikeford at socal.rr.com (Mike Ford) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:51 2005 Subject: Windows, std OS in Hell In-Reply-To: <5.0.0.25.2.20011109080111.023d6dc0@209.185.79.193> References: Message-ID: >The other thing HP did was invent their own printing protocol (the >JetDirect protocol) and they would install a virtual printer driver that >could talk that protocol to talk to their printers. My HP 4M with a 10/100 jetdirect card is working fine after running this HP wizard jetdirect installer software, but I'll be damned if I know whats going on. I checked a couple download sites and sure enough two dozen different shareware and commercial products will do LPR on windows 98, but the two practical solutions seem to remain; A SAMBA server, or just plugging the PC in with a parallel cable. How barbaric. From mikeford at socal.rr.com Sat Nov 10 03:05:46 2001 From: mikeford at socal.rr.com (Mike Ford) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:51 2005 Subject: food In-Reply-To: <200111091626.fA9GQKr03515@narnia.int.dittman.net> References: <200111091304.IAA15620@wordstock.com> from "Bryan Pope" at Nov 09, 2001 08:04:14 AM Message-ID: >> Poor steak... :( *IMHO*, steak is only good served blue rare... > >I prefer my steak well-cooked. Our ancestors discovered fire for a >reason. Cookings correctly cuts down on possible diseases, too (except >for "mad cow" disease, which is a prion). Cooking and many of the common spices and sauces traditionally were used to hide the fact the meat was rotten. Buy good meat and eat it like it was when it walked. From pete at dunnington.u-net.com Sat Nov 10 04:05:27 2001 From: pete at dunnington.u-net.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:51 2005 Subject: Cable and connector source In-Reply-To: Don McClure "Re: Cable and connector source" (Nov 10, 0:36) References: Message-ID: <10111101005.ZM7065@mindy.dunnington.u-net.com> On Nov 10, 0:36, Don McClure wrote: > PS/2 doesn't use a ground pin, or pin 2, IIRC. It does use ground, on pin 3. From (ironically) the IRIX manpage for pckeyboard: ------ / 5 3 \ | --- 1 | | --- 2 | \ 6 4 / ------ _____________________ |__Pin_Assignments___| |Pin | Description | |____|_______________| | 1 | Data | | 2 | Reserved | | 3 | Signal Ground | | 4 | Power +5V | | 5 | Clock | |_6__|_Reserved______| > So I'm going to find small female crimp on connectors to fasten to the pins > on a Radio Shack mini-DIN plug, when I can get to an electronics supply > store. Radio Shack doesn't seem to have them. I just don't solder often > enough to become proficient at it. I can think of somee alternatives. The first is to buy a cable with 6-pin miniDIN to bare ends; these usually have all 6 wires connected. Second, an old SGI or Sun cable, or any other 6-pin miniDIN cable you can cut one end off, in order to solder a 9-pin D. Thirdly, you can get heatshrink sleeves that contain solder. I'm not sure those would be very good to connect straight onto miniDIN plug pins, because the heat required might melt the plastic, but it might be OK, and neater and easier than a crimp. They're called "One-Step(TM) Solder Sleeve(TM)" terminals, and they're made by Tyco/Raychem. You can get them in the UK from Farnell (http://www.farnell.com) and probably from various US suppliers (including Farnell, I expect). Or just buy a cable from one of the SGI resellers, such as Greg Douglas (www.reputable.com)? -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager University of York From jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de Sat Nov 10 06:38:58 2001 From: jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de (jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:51 2005 Subject: Recent Aquisition In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <200111101238.fAACcw101024@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> On 9 Nov, Matt London wrote: > BA23 number 2: > Front bays: an RX50 (minus cable - a PC floppy cable shouyld do the job > right - so long as it's just straight through 34pin, no twist?) Yes. Is there the 50 pin cable from the M7555 to the dist panel? > Now to me, that doesn't look right. The BA23 is QQ/CD for the top 4 slots > and QQ/QQ serpentine for the bottom 4 - right? 3 QQ/CD and 5 QQ/QQ slots. > So basically, any pointers on how this might have been configured I an afraid to say that it seams that there are some cards from BA23 #2 are missing. So you will not be able to restore the old config. But it seams that there is enough to put a well working config together. Start with identifying the Emulex cards. (I did not find any infos grep-ing the field-guide.txt.) Be happy to have a TK70. It is much better than the TK50. And a 9 track drive is always nice. > It looks like one of the HDD's (both are SMD) has a 3 phase PSU - What drive type? Fujitsu Eagle (14" and 8") where quite common. I have seen several of them, but never with 3 phase PSU. > Oh, and what's J6 on the BA23 PSU for? Power controll. I saw this on a rack mout MVII: A cable from J6 to a power distribution box that contained a relais. This relais was driven by the power from J6. The BA23 was connected to a "unswitched" socket of the power distribution box and the rest of the rack to the "switched" sockets behind the relais. So the entire rack is powered on by powering that BA23. -- tschuess, Jochen Homepage: http://www.unixag-kl.fh-kl.de/~jkunz From mcguire at neurotica.com Sat Nov 10 08:24:39 2001 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:51 2005 Subject: Recent Aquisition In-Reply-To: Re: Recent Aquisition (jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de) References: <200111101238.fAACcw101024@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> Message-ID: <15341.14503.354752.181351@phaduka.neurotica.com> On November 10, jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de wrote: > > It looks like one of the HDD's (both are SMD) has a 3 phase PSU - > What drive type? Fujitsu Eagle (14" and 8") where quite common. I have > seen several of them, but never with 3 phase PSU. Huh? 14" and 8" Eagles? Every Eagle I've ever seen has been a 10" platter drive. Are there Eagles other than the M2351 and M2361? -Dave -- Dave McGuire St. Petersburg, FL From cmurillo at emtelsa.multi.net.co Sat Nov 10 08:49:10 2001 From: cmurillo at emtelsa.multi.net.co (Carlos Murillo) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:51 2005 Subject: Cromemco landmarks In-Reply-To: <15340.16340.974244.277920@phaduka.neurotica.com> References: <01C168AB.0CDD2380@mse-d03> <850.713T600T12724057optimus@canit.se> Message-ID: <3.0.2.32.20011110094910.00fa3eac@obregon.multi.net.co> At 03:43 PM 11/9/01 -0500, Dave wrote: >On November 9, Iggy Drougge wrote: >> Isn't this rather odd? The MicroVAX II is supposed to be 0,5 VUP, right? So >> what have the DEC engineers done to make it just as fast in the Dhrystone and >> even faster than the 11/780 in the Whetstone benchmarks? > > 0.9 VUP, not 0.5. > > -Dave Didn't the uVax II implement some of the original VAX instructions with emulation? I always wondered what the VUP rating would have been were they not emulated. -------------------------------------------------------------- Carlos E. Murillo-Sanchez carlos_murillo@nospammers.ieee.org From cmurillo at emtelsa.multi.net.co Sat Nov 10 08:40:47 2001 From: cmurillo at emtelsa.multi.net.co (Carlos Murillo) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:51 2005 Subject: food In-Reply-To: <3BEC26A5.A2DEB218@internet1.net> References: <3BE76EE1.D6F3898D@internet1.net> <5.1.0.14.2.20011108163804.00a04540@mail.30below.com> <3BEB6DB1.E0B863E9@internet1.net> <002e01c1693c$198e6080$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> Message-ID: <3.0.2.32.20011110094047.00f9a348@obregon.multi.net.co> At 01:55 PM 11/9/01 -0500, you wrote: >Adam was made in God's own image, not that of a monkey. > >Chad Fernandez >Michigan, USA So you have seen Him and you know that he doesn't look like a monkey? (or should we start capitalizing Monkey now?) . I'm not religious, but I know that if you try to interpret any religious book letter by letter (bible, q'ran etc) you get in trouble very soon; theology would not be the fun that it is. carlos. carlos. -------------------------------------------------------------- Carlos E. Murillo-Sanchez carlos_murillo@nospammers.ieee.org From cmurillo at emtelsa.multi.net.co Sat Nov 10 08:55:05 2001 From: cmurillo at emtelsa.multi.net.co (Carlos Murillo) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:51 2005 Subject: OT again Re: food In-Reply-To: <3BEC4197.BA5458D7@rain.org> References: <3BE76EE1.D6F3898D@internet1.net> <5.1.0.14.2.20011108163804.00a04540@mail.30below.com> <3BEB6DB1.E0B863E9@internet1.net> <002e01c1693c$198e6080$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> <4.3.2.7.2.20011109150646.00acb330@pop3.norton.antivirus> Message-ID: <3.0.2.32.20011110095505.00fa5d70@obregon.multi.net.co> At 12:50 PM 11/9/01 -0800, Marvin wrote: >Gene Ehrich wrote: >> >> >Adam was made in God's own image, not that of a monkey. >> >> Adam who? >> >> Can't believe anybody really believes that Adam and Eve existed. > >I can't believe there is anybody who doesn't believe in God. I don't think that you can infer that he doesn't believe in god from his non-belief in Adam an Eve. Unfortunately, that's the kind of logic that polarized religious debates usually fallback to. "Science can purify religion from error and superstition; religion can purify science from idolatry and false absolutes. Each can draw the other into a wider world in which both can flourish... Such bridging ministries must be nurtured and encouraged." - Pope John Paul II. carlos. -------------------------------------------------------------- Carlos E. Murillo-Sanchez carlos_murillo@nospammers.ieee.org From cmurillo at emtelsa.multi.net.co Sat Nov 10 08:59:44 2001 From: cmurillo at emtelsa.multi.net.co (Carlos Murillo) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:51 2005 Subject: OT again Re: food In-Reply-To: <15340.17488.64649.642430@phaduka.neurotica.com> References: <3BE76EE1.D6F3898D@internet1.net> <5.1.0.14.2.20011108163804.00a04540@mail.30below.com> <3BEB6DB1.E0B863E9@internet1.net> <002e01c1693c$198e6080$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> <4.3.2.7.2.20011109150646.00acb330@pop3.norton.antivirus> <3BEC4197.BA5458D7@rain.org> Message-ID: <3.0.2.32.20011110095944.00f9a348@obregon.multi.net.co> At 04:02 PM 11/9/01 -0500, you wrote: >On November 9, Marvin Johnston wrote: >> > >Adam was made in God's own image, not that of a monkey. >> > >> > Adam who? >> > >> > Can't believe anybody really believes that Adam and Eve existed. >> >> I can't believe there is anybody who doesn't believe in God. > > I can't believe there's anybody who can't be tolerant of the fact that >different people may have different beliefs. > > And yes dammit, before you flame me, I believe in God! > > -Dave I don't believe in God. But I am very aware that I may be missing something important. I think that people with genuine faith are lucky. carlos. -------------------------------------------------------------- Carlos E. Murillo-Sanchez carlos_murillo@nospammers.ieee.org From mcguire at neurotica.com Sat Nov 10 09:23:25 2001 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:51 2005 Subject: OT again Re: food In-Reply-To: Re: OT again Re: food (Carlos Murillo) References: <3BE76EE1.D6F3898D@internet1.net> <5.1.0.14.2.20011108163804.00a04540@mail.30below.com> <3BEB6DB1.E0B863E9@internet1.net> <002e01c1693c$198e6080$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> <4.3.2.7.2.20011109150646.00acb330@pop3.norton.antivirus> <3BEC4197.BA5458D7@rain.org> <3.0.2.32.20011110095944.00f9a348@obregon.multi.net.co> Message-ID: <15341.18029.544820.714042@phaduka.neurotica.com> On November 10, Carlos Murillo wrote: > I don't believe in God. But I am very aware that I may be missing > something important. I think that people with genuine faith are > lucky. I think it has a lot to do (or maybe everything to do) with personal experience. I don't believe in much of anything unless I see pretty convincing evidence. If you have a personal experience that causes you to believe in something, I think you tend to believe it *much* more strongly than if it was just learned second- or third-hand, or preached at you or something. I think this goes for pretty much anything, not just the current [very much off-topic] conversation. So, to drag us kicking and screaming back to on-topic conversation. As some of you know, I just moved from MD down to FL. My mom lives down here. I'd been here for less than an hour before she presented me with a little housewarming gift...a Commodore 64 with a 1541 disk drive, both in their [beat-up] original boxes, that she'd picked up at a yard sale for two bucks! :-) -Dave -- Dave McGuire St. Petersburg, FL From zmerch at 30below.com Sat Nov 10 09:43:57 2001 From: zmerch at 30below.com (Roger Merchberger) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:51 2005 Subject: Clearly OT (but what the hell...) (was: food In-Reply-To: <7A9BACCEF0171D4FB77019F5104CDD3722589D@jeffserver.tegjeff. com> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20011110103334.01c7a350@mail.30below.com> Rumor has it that Douglas Quebbeman may have mentioned these words: >Worked for a publishing company, and one of the VP's played >the pipes. He'd go up on the roof of the building at lunch >at least once a week to play. > >While returning from an early lunch, I was approaching the >building, enjoying his jamming, when an older women exiting >the building heard the sound, looked up, then looked at me >and said "My, I do *love* the sound of the saxophone"... Probably the "oddest" thing I've ever experienced is when I went to Germany back in '91 -- I was stationed in Oerbke north of Hannover about 50 clicks, in the "british" sector of what was divvied up Deutschland at the time. I was in a German gasthaus (bar/pub) in Fallingbostel drinking beer (German, of course) & playing cards with my buddy. The cards were given to us by the Brits (nice folks!) but were made in Spain. In comes a Scot in full kilt & uniform with bagpipes, and he played for around an hour -- the last thing he played before he left was "Yankee Doodle" for the visiting Americans... :-) Was most definitely the *most* multiculturally diverse moment in my life... Roger "Merch" Merchberger From rigdonj at intellistar.net Sat Nov 10 10:06:29 2001 From: rigdonj at intellistar.net (Joe) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:51 2005 Subject: ISIS & CP/M for MDS 225 series3 In-Reply-To: <002b01c166e7$bb7e9c40$e94694d1@dsuper.net> Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20011110110629.007a5ea0@mailhost.intellistar.net> Hi doug, I've had to dispose of all my classic computer stuff including the Intel MDS. I also had an original DRI CPM disk that *should* have worked on the Intel MDS but I never tried it. I gave the MDS, all the manuals and SW and that disk to Mike Haas, who is also on this list. You may be able to get copies from him. Besides the CPM disk I also had a complete set of ISIS II, assembler, PL/M and, I think, Fortran for the MDS. I think there may have been a copy of ISIS III in there too but I'm not sure. It's my understanding that the original ditribution versions of CPM should run on the MDS since Gary Kidall originally wrote CPM on/for an MDS-800 and it had to be tailored for other machines. But as I said, I never got around to trying it. I'm expecting a complete working MDS 800 shortly so I may yet be able to try and run CPM on one. I wouldn't even getting the MDS 800 except that this deal has been int the works for over a year and a half. I'll probably play with it briefly and then give it away too. FYI most (all?) of the 225s came with single sided single density disk drives but most the ones that I've seen have been upgraded to double-sided double density drives and controller. I'm sorry that you haven't been able to get ahold of me directly but since I got rid of all of my HPs and classic computer stuff I haven't checked my e-mail very often and a lot of it is bouncing. Joe Joe At 11:23 AM 11/6/01 -0600, you wrote: >Hello folks... >I've been trying to get an operating system for my MDS 225 series 3 on 8" >disks. >I've read that it uses ISIS (Intel System Implementation Supervisor) >and that it can also run CP/M (GENERIC) according to Joe's web site >http://www.intellistar.net/~rigdonj/mds.htm >However, I've tried to email joe at >rigdonj@intellistar.net >But the mail bounces as undelivered. >Any ideas? > > >Doug Taylor (Techno) >Sysop of the "Dead On Arrival BBS" >Telnet://doabbs.dynip.com >http://www-mtl.look.ca/~techno >techno@dsuper.net > > > From dittman at dittman.net Sat Nov 10 10:17:18 2001 From: dittman at dittman.net (Eric Dittman) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:51 2005 Subject: DECserver 700 crap (again) In-Reply-To: from "One Without Reason" at Nov 10, 2001 04:23:06 AM Message-ID: <200111101617.fAAGHID06268@narnia.int.dittman.net> > Apparently there are a lot of commands that aren't documented in the help, > and I don't have the command reference. I have the site preparation and > maintenance manual, but I can't find the command reference. I would > appreciate any help. Thanks. A lot of the commands don't show up in the help unless you are in privileged mode. Help only shows you the commands you can use. -- Eric Dittman dittman@dittman.net Check out the DEC Enthusiasts Club at http://www.dittman.net/ From dittman at dittman.net Sat Nov 10 10:22:50 2001 From: dittman at dittman.net (Eric Dittman) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:52 2005 Subject: food In-Reply-To: from "Mike Ford" at Nov 10, 2001 01:05:46 AM Message-ID: <200111101622.fAAGMoO06278@narnia.int.dittman.net> > >> Poor steak... :( *IMHO*, steak is only good served blue rare... > > > >I prefer my steak well-cooked. Our ancestors discovered fire for a > >reason. Cookings correctly cuts down on possible diseases, too (except > >for "mad cow" disease, which is a prion). > > Cooking and many of the common spices and sauces traditionally were used to > hide the fact the meat was rotten. Buy good meat and eat it like it was > when it walked. Then go to the hospital with E. Coli from eating meat that wasn't properly cooked. I've eaten good meat, fresh from the cow, and I liked the taste better when the meat is properly cooked (my grandfather raised Black Angus and we had a lot of fresh meat). -- Eric Dittman dittman@dittman.net Check out the DEC Enthusiasts Club at http://www.dittman.net/ From dittman at dittman.net Sat Nov 10 10:26:21 2001 From: dittman at dittman.net (Eric Dittman) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:52 2005 Subject: Clearly OT (but what the hell...) (was: food In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20011110103334.01c7a350@mail.30below.com> from "Roger Merchberger" at Nov 10, 2001 10:43:57 AM Message-ID: <200111101626.fAAGQLH06291@narnia.int.dittman.net> > >Worked for a publishing company, and one of the VP's played > >the pipes. He'd go up on the roof of the building at lunch > >at least once a week to play. > > > >While returning from an early lunch, I was approaching the > >building, enjoying his jamming, when an older women exiting > >the building heard the sound, looked up, then looked at me > >and said "My, I do *love* the sound of the saxophone"... > > > > Probably the "oddest" thing I've ever experienced is when I went to Germany > back in '91 -- I was stationed in Oerbke north of Hannover about 50 > clicks, in the "british" sector of what was divvied up Deutschland at the > time. I was in a German gasthaus (bar/pub) in Fallingbostel drinking beer > (German, of course) & playing cards with my buddy. The cards were given to > us by the Brits (nice folks!) but were made in Spain. In comes a Scot in > full kilt & uniform with bagpipes, and he played for around an hour -- the > last thing he played before he left was "Yankee Doodle" for the visiting > Americans... :-) There's a guy I work with that plays the bagpipe. He practices outside during lunch with a practice instrument (it looks like just the mouthpiece with the holes for playing notes). After the September 11 tragedy there was a memorial service at the flagpole in front of the main building and he played "Amazing Grace" on his bagpipe (mention of "Amazing Grace" is not an invitation to merge this thread in to the religion thread). -- Eric Dittman dittman@dittman.net Check out the DEC Enthusiasts Club at http://www.dittman.net/ From edick at idcomm.com Sat Nov 10 11:01:01 2001 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:52 2005 Subject: absurdity References: <107.856e06e.291dba27@aol.com> <4.3.2.7.2.20011109222921.00ae9390@pop3.norton.antivirus> Message-ID: <002101c16a09$46f81d40$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> Yes ... and the reason so many of them end up in hell anyway is that they really don't believe what they're trying to sell to the rest of us. Further, the reason Americans are so "popular" in the remainder of the world has to do with the fact that they frequently travel about both as private individuals and as representatives of our government, industry, or culture, telling people elsewhere how WRONG their ancient cultural views of the world, both physical and spiritual, are. The image outside the U.S. of those Americans, extrapolated to represent ALL Americans, is that they lack the humility to respect anyone else's culture, religion, history, etc. That compresses into "they don't respect anyone else." My suspicion is that many of those promoters of American-style religion, which is clearly a business more than a belief system, don't really believe anything specific, other than that they have to convince everyone around them that they do. It's no secret, however, that if one preaches but doesn't act consistently with what they preach, they're just a fake. Dick ----- Original Message ----- From: "Gene Ehrich" To: Sent: Friday, November 09, 2001 8:29 PM Subject: Re: absurdity > At 07:04 PM 11/9/01 -0500, you wrote: > >It could also be argued that there's something wrong with the idea of > >believing in God purely to keep oneself out of hell > > Which is what most god believers do. > > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ --------------- > > gene@ehrich.com > gehrich@tampabay.rr.com > P.O. Box 3365 Spring Hill Florida 34611-3365 > > http://www.voicenet.com/~generic > Computer & Video Game Garage Sale > > > > > > From jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de Sat Nov 10 10:42:38 2001 From: jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de (jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:52 2005 Subject: Recent Aquisition In-Reply-To: <15341.14503.354752.181351@phaduka.neurotica.com> Message-ID: <200111101642.fAAGgcT01238@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> On 10 Nov, Dave McGuire wrote: > Huh? 14" and 8" Eagles? Every Eagle I've ever seen has been a 10" > platter drive. Are there Eagles other than the M2351 and M2361? Hmm. The Eagles may be 10". I 've not seen that much of the big Eagles from inside and I never measured them. (Sorry. I am an european and I am not that used to that wired inch measurement. ;-) ) For the 8" drives: I know very well that they exist and that they are 8". AFAIK they are called Eagle too or Super Eagle. M-number? Hmm? M2223K? M2322K? -- tschuess, Jochen Homepage: http://www.unixag-kl.fh-kl.de/~jkunz From mcguire at neurotica.com Sat Nov 10 11:51:40 2001 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:52 2005 Subject: Recent Aquisition In-Reply-To: Re: Recent Aquisition (jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de) References: <15341.14503.354752.181351@phaduka.neurotica.com> <200111101642.fAAGgcT01238@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> Message-ID: <15341.26924.364635.526447@phaduka.neurotica.com> On November 10, jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de wrote: > > Huh? 14" and 8" Eagles? Every Eagle I've ever seen has been a 10" > > platter drive. Are there Eagles other than the M2351 and M2361? > Hmm. The Eagles may be 10". I 've not seen that much of the big Eagles > from inside and I never measured them. (Sorry. I am an european and I am > not that used to that wired inch measurement. ;-) ) For the 8" drives: > I know very well that they exist and that they are 8". AFAIK they are > called Eagle too or Super Eagle. M-number? Hmm? M2223K? M2322K? Ahh, you metric folk! ;) The M2322K and family are indeed standard 8" form factor drives. They're not called "Eagles" though, as far as I'm aware. I really like those drives. Take an M2322K (or the larger M2372K/M2382K models), stick it on an Emulex QD32 or QD33 controller, stick it in a QBUS VAX...Nice! :-) An interesting note...The HDA of an Eagle or Super Eagle drive is a big aluminum casting that, to me, very much resembles the engine of a Volkswagen. ;) -Dave -- Dave McGuire St. Petersburg, FL From cmurillo at emtelsa.multi.net.co Sat Nov 10 09:03:44 2001 From: cmurillo at emtelsa.multi.net.co (Carlos Murillo) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:52 2005 Subject: absurdity In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.2.20011109164623.00acc290@pop3.norton.antivirus> References: <3BEC4197.BA5458D7@rain.org> <3BE76EE1.D6F3898D@internet1.net> <5.1.0.14.2.20011108163804.00a04540@mail.30below.com> <3BEB6DB1.E0B863E9@internet1.net> <002e01c1693c$198e6080$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> <4.3.2.7.2.20011109150646.00acb330@pop3.norton.antivirus> Message-ID: <3.0.2.32.20011110100344.00fa3e38@obregon.multi.net.co> At 04:52 PM 11/9/01 -0500, you wrote: >More than half of the worlds population does not believe in a god. >Believing in one is certainly ones right but it is absurd. The highest form >of life in the universe is man. Could well be. That wouldn't deny existence of a God, though; surely, God isn't alive in sense we could imagine. As for man being the highest form of life... it remains to be proven. So far it only qualifies as the lowest. carlos. -------------------------------------------------------------- Carlos E. Murillo-Sanchez carlos_murillo@nospammers.ieee.org From pete at dunnington.u-net.com Sat Nov 10 09:25:10 2001 From: pete at dunnington.u-net.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:52 2005 Subject: Recent Aquisition In-Reply-To: Dave McGuire "Re: Recent Aquisition" (Nov 10, 9:24) References: <200111101238.fAACcw101024@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> <15341.14503.354752.181351@phaduka.neurotica.com> Message-ID: <10111101525.ZM7374@mindy.dunnington.u-net.com> On Nov 10, 9:24, Dave McGuire wrote: > On November 10, jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de wrote: > > > It looks like one of the HDD's (both are SMD) has a 3 phase PSU - > > What drive type? Fujitsu Eagle (14" and 8") where quite common. I have > > seen several of them, but never with 3 phase PSU. > > Huh? 14" and 8" Eagles? Every Eagle I've ever seen has been a 10" > platter drive. Are there Eagles other than the M2351 and M2361? Nope, but there are other Fujitsu SMD drives with larger and smaller platters. The Eagle and Super Eagle were two specific models, approximately 1/2GB and 1GB respectively. -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager University of York From Innfogra at aol.com Sat Nov 10 12:21:55 2001 From: Innfogra at aol.com (Innfogra@aol.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:52 2005 Subject: Recent Aquisition Message-ID: The way I remember is that the Fujitsu Eagle is the 2351 and the Super eagle is the 2361. Fujitsu did make 8" drives but the were not called Eagles around the Northwest. The 23XX (2316, 2333 etc.)series were nice 8 inch drives. I have also had some 14 inch Fujitsus but I cannot remember the series numbers but they predated the Eagles. Paxton Astoria, OR -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20011110/ed0a3f75/attachment.html From cmurillo at emtelsa.multi.net.co Sat Nov 10 12:35:06 2001 From: cmurillo at emtelsa.multi.net.co (Carlos Murillo) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:52 2005 Subject: Windows, std OS in Hell In-Reply-To: <10111091848.ZM6344@mindy.dunnington.u-net.com> References: <200111091446.JAA06356@stage21.ureach.com> Message-ID: <3.0.2.32.20011110133506.00ff3694@obregon.multi.net.co> At 06:48 PM 11/9/01 GMT, Pete wrote: >On Nov 9, 9:46, Bill Pechter wrote: >> ---- On Fri, 09 Nov 2001, Geoff Reed (geoffr@zipcon.net) wrote: >> Most of the third party add on printer servers come with an lpr >> capability for Win9x and there's a shareware one on Simtel for >> Windows 3.x with a winsock. >> >> Lan Workplace also had one from Novell. > >You can also do it from any version of PCNFS. If I remember correctly, you need NIS in your network in order to be able to use PCNFS, right? I seem to recall that I did not choose PCNFS because of that several years ago. carlos. -------------------------------------------------------------- Carlos E. Murillo-Sanchez carlos_murillo@nospammers.ieee.org From mcguire at neurotica.com Sat Nov 10 12:48:57 2001 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:52 2005 Subject: Nutella In-Reply-To: RE: Nutella (Chris Kennedy) References: <15340.29539.784187.914346@phaduka.neurotica.com> Message-ID: <15341.30361.924363.207823@phaduka.neurotica.com> On November 9, Chris Kennedy wrote: > > What would be the American English translation of "dummies" in this > > context? > > Pacifier. Makes perfect sense if you think about it for a second :-) Ahh, yes it does! :-) -Dave -- Dave McGuire St. Petersburg, FL From vze2wsvr at verizon.net Sat Nov 10 12:53:50 2001 From: vze2wsvr at verizon.net (Eric Chomko) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:52 2005 Subject: Lots o' stuff that I don't need, it's free too References: <200111091851.fA9IpwT25320@host.ka.net> Message-ID: <3BED77BE.BB20E047@mail.verizon.net> I just checked, I have a 7470a manual. Damn close, but not it! Good luck. Eric "Paul E. Smith" wrote: > I recently purchased a used HP 7475a plotter and I need an instruction manual. Can you help? If so, you can reach me at 812-207-6502. My mailing address is > Paul E. Smith > 1109 E. Main Street > New Albany, IN 47150 > > Thanks in advance for your help. > > Regards, > Paul E. Smith From vze2wsvr at verizon.net Sat Nov 10 13:09:20 2001 From: vze2wsvr at verizon.net (Eric Chomko) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:52 2005 Subject: OT - Re: food References: <1739.713T450T12664391optimus@canit.se> Message-ID: <3BED7B60.E1184B94@mail.verizon.net> Iggy Drougge wrote: > Eric Chomko skrev: > > >Iggy Drougge wrote: > > >> Eric Chomko skrev: > >> > >> >Iggy Drougge wrote: > >> > >> >> I find it somewhat interesting how Americans define "foreign". Doesn't > >> >> that require something "indigenous"? =) > >> > >> >Ha! We are accused of being "typical" or "ugly". Those comments make us > >> >indigenous. > >> >(And they say that WE have double standards!) > >> > >> It's such a mess, really. What I did find funny was how Americans define > >> what's foreign, though. Americans are traditionally immigrants, after all. > > >Yes we are. And? > > So when do you decide that someone is a foreigner? > Usually when they tell me their country of orgin. Gievn the melting-post aspect of the US, why would I assume someone is a foreigner when I meet them here? > > >> >But guess what? I can go to any large city and even smaller ones and get: > >> >Chinese, Korean, Thai, Indian, Mexican, Greek, Italian, Jewish, African > >> >(and others) food. In fact, all those and more are all within an hour of > >> >my house, with many choices of many. What I lack is good German food > >> >nearby, but that is another story. > >> > >> >Can you get that variety where you live? > >> > >> Certainly. And Mongolian BBQ, too. =) > > >I can walk to one. > > I can walk to Moscow. Why don't you then? > > > >> There is a great kiosk with German sausages, too. I don't know much about > >> German food, though. When I was on holidays in Germany, all I ate was kebab > >> and Chinese food. But German kebabs are different. They're made by Turks, > >> and called "kebap". They often contain chicken. > > >Not German. What beer did they serve? > > Berliner Kindl. > Sounds like a local northern brew. I think that there is a reason that Oktoberfest is in Munich. Eric > > -- > En ligne avec Thor 2.6a. > > [E]xcept in the works of Gunnar Asplund, architect of the Stockholm Exhibition > of 1930 and the Stockholm crematorium, Sweden has never contributed much to > the revolutionary developments through which modern architecture made its > initial impact on the world. > J.M. Richards, Modern Architecture From vze2wsvr at verizon.net Sat Nov 10 13:15:13 2001 From: vze2wsvr at verizon.net (Eric Chomko) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:52 2005 Subject: food References: <7A9BACCEF0171D4FB77019F5104CDD372258A8@jeffserver.tegjeff.com> <15340.17565.178963.918868@phaduka.neurotica.com> Message-ID: <3BED7CC1.B15EAD55@mail.verizon.net> My guess is 'one that paves' or an actual brick type! Eric Dave McGuire wrote: > On November 9, Douglas Quebbeman wrote: > > In addition to being a Hoosier, I'm a Paver, but > > that's a State of Mind. > > A Paver? Wassat? > > -Dave > > -- > Dave McGuire > St. Petersburg, FL From vze2wsvr at verizon.net Sat Nov 10 13:23:05 2001 From: vze2wsvr at verizon.net (Eric Chomko) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:52 2005 Subject: absurdity References: <128.7511b33.291dcc20@aol.com> <15340.29911.734185.46636@phaduka.neurotica.com> Message-ID: <3BED7E99.B3C6375E@mail.verizon.net> Wow, you left beautiful Laurel, Maryland for St. Petersburg, FL?! Watch out for Rte. 19 down there, it's as bad as Rte. 1 up here. Eric Dave McGuire wrote: > On November 9, LFessen106@aol.com wrote: > > Yeah It can indeed, but you have to start somewhere right? :-) Anyhow Dave, did you finally get settled down there? I see you're finally getting to your emails again! > > I'm at my mom's place in Treasure Island at the moment...I've got work > to do, and there's connectivity here. My stuff is piled up in boxes > at my new place in St. Petersburg about ten minutes away. I go over > there for a few hours every day and do more stuff. The next project > is to scope out the breaker box and put in two 30A 220V circuits for > the APC Matrix5000 UPSes and start putting the computer room together. > But for now I have my main desktop machine set up here at my mom's > place talking through the NATed network I put together for her. It's > working out pretty well so far; at least I can get some work done.. > > -Dave > > -- > Dave McGuire > St. Petersburg, FL From vze2wsvr at verizon.net Sat Nov 10 13:26:14 2001 From: vze2wsvr at verizon.net (Eric Chomko) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:52 2005 Subject: Apple Floppy Drives (was: More Apple Pimpers) References: <3BEC7A1B.647179BF@verizon.net> Message-ID: <3BED7F56.5B5D7B30@mail.verizon.net> I used to have one like that! I probably still do in a box someplace. It IS a cool slide rule even though I got it after I got a calculator (mid 70-s). Eric Ian Koller wrote: > Fred, > > I've got a circular slide rule that fits in your shirt > pocket and has formulas, conversion tables, physical constants, > etc. and even a periodic table either on the back or on a pull > out card. That one is so neat, I'll never let it go. > > "Fred Cisin (XenoSoft)" wrote: > > > > On Thu, 8 Nov 2001, Feldman, Robert wrote: > > > (BTW, my 14-year old son has three slide rules and was quite interested in > > > the giant one up on the wall in a hall at his high school.) > > > > A friend of mine has one of those. I'm envious. From mcguire at neurotica.com Sat Nov 10 13:30:34 2001 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:52 2005 Subject: absurdity In-Reply-To: Re: absurdity (Eric Chomko) References: <128.7511b33.291dcc20@aol.com> <15340.29911.734185.46636@phaduka.neurotica.com> <3BED7E99.B3C6375E@mail.verizon.net> Message-ID: <15341.32858.184917.54811@phaduka.neurotica.com> On November 10, Eric Chomko wrote: > Wow, you left beautiful Laurel, Maryland for St. Petersburg, FL?! Watch out for > Rte. 19 down there, it's as bad as Rte. 1 up here. Uh-huh. ;) Yeah, Route 19 is fun. There are lots of cool pawn shops on 19, though, which often have old HP calculators (another passion of mine) and sometimes neat old computers! -Dave -- Dave McGuire St. Petersburg, FL From DAW at yalepress3.unipress.yale.edu Sat Nov 10 13:55:03 2001 From: DAW at yalepress3.unipress.yale.edu (David Woyciesjes) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:52 2005 Subject: absurdity Message-ID: <9011A52E011ED311B4280004AC1BA61501467274@yalepress3.unipress.yale.edu> ! Anyhow Dave, did you finally get settled down there? I see !you're finally getting to your emails again! ! !-Linc. (the Troll - I guess?) Linc --- For my sake, don't use Troll as a nickname. The Troll I know is this hot little blonde girl from college... ;-) Sorry, wandering mind again... --- David A Woyciesjes --- C & IS Support Specialist --- Yale University Press --- mailto:david.woyciesjes@yale.edu --- (203) 432-0953 --- ICQ # - 905818 From vance at ikickass.org Sat Nov 10 14:11:32 2001 From: vance at ikickass.org (One Without Reason) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:52 2005 Subject: DECserver 700 crap (again) In-Reply-To: <200111101617.fAAGHID06268@narnia.int.dittman.net> Message-ID: I'm in privileged mode. Peace... Sridhar On Sat, 10 Nov 2001, Eric Dittman wrote: > > Apparently there are a lot of commands that aren't documented in the help, > > and I don't have the command reference. I have the site preparation and > > maintenance manual, but I can't find the command reference. I would > > appreciate any help. Thanks. > > A lot of the commands don't show up in the help unless you are in privileged > mode. Help only shows you the commands you can use. > -- > Eric Dittman > dittman@dittman.net > Check out the DEC Enthusiasts Club at http://www.dittman.net/ > From jhfine at idirect.com Sat Nov 10 15:22:10 2001 From: jhfine at idirect.com (Jerome Fine) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:52 2005 Subject: Computers on TBAA Message-ID: <3BED9A82.3D755190@idirect.com> I am told that the computers on tonight's episode of TBAA at 8:00 P.M. (CBS? - never could keep them straight) are Apple computers running non-Windows Operating Systems. Since I am a PDP-11 fellow, I need some help. Can anyone identify which hardware and possibly software is being used? I tend to assume that most programs on TV these days don't bother to try and be accurate, so it would be helpful if those who know would identify for us who don't!!!! PLEASE - this question has nothing to do with FOOD or RELIGION or GOD. And since it was suggested that the computers in question might even be more than 10 years old, it may even be ON TOPIC. Sincerely yours, Jerome Fine From jhfine at idirect.com Sat Nov 10 15:22:49 2001 From: jhfine at idirect.com (Jerome Fine) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:52 2005 Subject: Recent Aquisition References: Message-ID: <3BED9AA9.2C1859E6@idirect.com> >Matt London wrote: > Hi guys, > Just had a MicroVAX II delivered. It's in an intresting configuration - > in two 19" racks :&) > > Anyway, decided to work out what I've got and get things to a point > where I can get her up and running. Unfortunatly, she was > "decomissioned" using a rather large knife, or bolt cutters, judging from > from the damage to just about every cable protruding from the back > (including cables connecting HDD's to CPU). > > Just to summarise what there is (more complete list to follow when I > remember to take a pen and paper with me to the office): > o two SMD HDD's - I'll get make/model next time I'm down > o a cipher (?) tape drive (9 track I think?) - again, I'll have to get the > model number later > o two BA23 cases (which I brought home to check out) > > It looks awfully as if someone else has pulled some cards at some point, > but here's what's in the BA23's > > BA23 number 1: > Front bays: a TK70 > Backplane: > A B C D > 1 empty > 2 KA630 (Quad Width) > 3 DATARAM 40918 rev D Assy 62404 Rev D (Quad Width) > 4 Emulex QU3210401 (Double Width) > 5 Emulex CU021042 Rev F <-- (Quad Width) > 6 Emulex CU021042 Rev F <-- (Quad Width) > 7 Emulex CC0910401 TQK70 > 8 empty empty > Looks like there are cab kits for the KA630, and I think there's a board > (and a surviving cable for!) the CC0910401. > (KA630 cab kit in A, B, C, E & F open, D has a blanking plate) > > BA23 number 2: > Front bays: an RX50 (minus cable - a PC floppy cable shouyld do the job > right - so long as it's just straight through 34pin, no twist?) > Backplane: > A B C D > 1 empty > 2 M9405 > 3 empty > 4 M9047 M9047 > 5 Emulex TU0210401 Rev C > 6 M7555 M9047 > 7 empty M9404 > 8 empty > No cab kits. (But slots A, D, E and F have no blanking plate and are open) > > Now to me, that doesn't look right. The BA23 is QQ/CD for the top 4 slots > and QQ/QQ serpentine for the bottom 4 - right? > > I have an awful lot of half cables where they've just been cut right > through the middle - that gives me the feeling it might be tricky to get > this working. > > So basically, any pointers on how this might have been configured (there > was one HDD and one BA23 in each rack, with a tape drive in the rack which > had BA23 number 2 in it. Along with any pointers on the best way to get > things up and running again. I didn't get any media for this (besides the > two HDDs). > > It looks like one of the HDD's (both are SMD) has a 3 phase PSU - I'm not > going to be able to provide 3 phase (more info tomorrow when I can get to > it) > > Oh, and what's J6 on the BA23 PSU for? it looked to be hooked up to a > cable in BA23 number 2's rack. > > Oh - and I got a DECserver 90M (which I presume is a terminal server). No > PSU for it tho - anyone got any clue how to test that? > Any thoughts? :&) > Thanks, > -- Matt Jerome Fine replies: I thought I would wait for someone who is more aware of the details to answer, however, that does not seem to have occurred. (a) The use of 2 * BA23 boxes was an attempt by DEC to allow up to 14 1/2 quad slots within this dual configuration - after subtracting the "1/2 slot" required in to "top" box and the "full quad slot" required in the "bottom" box for the expansion boards needed to connect the two BA23 boxes. (b) In the BA23, the first THREE slots are ABCD. The other FIVE slots are ABAB as for function. (c) The bus grant chain, I look at the backplane from the rear of the BA23 box with the top slot being ABCD. Then the top slot can also be LEFT or AB and RIGHT or CD. The bus grant order is then: 1L 2L 3L 4L 4R 5R 5L 6L 6R 7R 7L 8L 8R (d) Assuming that the same boards are used in a uVAX II environment as with a PDP-11 (both are 22 bit Qbus), the usual board placed at the end of the chain (8R) in the "top" box is the M9404. The M9404 requires only the last dual position in the top BA23 box. The M9405 is then placed at the beginning of the chain (1L) in the bottom box. Since 1R can't have a dual board, the whole quad slot is lost. Of course, the M9404 can be placed further up the bus grant chain in the top box if that is preferred and is probably done to balance the load between two BA23 boxes. (e) The M9047 board is just a bus grant. There is a lot more I can say, but since I confine myself to running only PDP-11 systems, I am not on firm ground with the uVAX II. However, I can suggest that unless there is some reason you wish to continue with the SMD drives, that you look to other types for hard disk storage. The problem with the RQDX3 (M7555) is that the largest drive is the RD54 at about 160 MBytes. If you can find a Qbus host adapter at a price that is OK for you (they still seem to be very expensive as far as hobby use is concerned), then 2 GByte SCSI drives are now relatively inexpensive and much more suitable for VMS. Sincerely yours, Jerome Fine From gehrich at tampabay.rr.com Sat Nov 10 15:37:48 2001 From: gehrich at tampabay.rr.com (Gene Ehrich) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:52 2005 Subject: absurdity In-Reply-To: <3BED7E99.B3C6375E@mail.verizon.net> References: <128.7511b33.291dcc20@aol.com> <15340.29911.734185.46636@phaduka.neurotica.com> Message-ID: <4.3.2.7.2.20011110163234.00ace940@pop3.norton.antivirus> At 02:23 PM 11/10/01 -0500, you wrote: >Wow, you left beautiful Laurel, Maryland for St. Petersburg, FL?! I left beautiful Marlton NJ for Spring Hill Florida and it's really tough. Every afternoon I have to take a nap out on the Lanai in 78 to 80 degree temperature and freeze at night as it gets down to chilly 60. I never get to use my heavy winter clothing and have to wear shorts year round. I don't get to see the beautiful snow, ice, hail and freezing temperatures of NJ. It's really tough. >Watch out for Rte. 19 down there, it's as bad as Rte. 1 up here. Don't be silly there is no comparison. --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- gene@ehrich.com gehrich@tampabay.rr.com P.O. Box 3365 Spring Hill Florida 34611-3365 http://www.voicenet.com/~generic Computer & Video Game Garage Sale From jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de Sat Nov 10 15:38:25 2001 From: jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de (jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:52 2005 Subject: Recent Aquisition In-Reply-To: <15341.26924.364635.526447@phaduka.neurotica.com> Message-ID: <200111102138.fAALcPW01560@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> On 10 Nov, Dave McGuire wrote: > Ahh, you metric folk! ;) ;-) > The M2322K and family are indeed standard 8" form factor drives. > They're not called "Eagles" though, as far as I'm aware. Uuups. Sorry. I thought that Eagle and Super Eagle where names for product lines, not for two specific drives. > I really like those drives. The (Super) Eagle or the later 8" drives? In the case of the 8" drives you are the first person that I hear talking nice words about that drives. The most words I heared about the 8" drives are like: "Reformat them at least once a year, or you will loose your data." > Take an M2322K (or the larger M2372K/M2382K > models), stick it on an Emulex QD32 or QD33 controller, stick it in a > QBUS VAX...Nice! :-) I know. My first QBus disk system was a QD33 with two 9" D2363 drives from NEC. Very impressive. The first time I simply puted one drive on top of the BA123. When the drive begun to move its heads, the machine (around 100kg with the drive!) begun to shake. A big smile run acros my face when I noticed that. Not to forget that incredible sound! :-) Meanwhile I got my hands on a 1G 5.25" Seagate and a 340MB Hitachi SMD disk, two ESDI controlers and lots of ESDI disks, several RQDX3 with some RD53 and RD54 (But the RD54 will be used in the Symbolics of a friend, hallo Hans), a KFQSA with DSSI disks and last but not least an MSCP emulating SCSI adapter. So my QBus VAXen and the PDP11/73 are well equiped with disks. The only thing that I am still missing is some SDI stuff. ;-) -- tschuess, Jochen Homepage: http://www.unixag-kl.fh-kl.de/~jkunz From mcguire at neurotica.com Sat Nov 10 15:50:43 2001 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:52 2005 Subject: absurdity In-Reply-To: Re: absurdity (Gene Ehrich) References: <128.7511b33.291dcc20@aol.com> <15340.29911.734185.46636@phaduka.neurotica.com> <4.3.2.7.2.20011110163234.00ace940@pop3.norton.antivirus> Message-ID: <15341.41267.424433.360366@phaduka.neurotica.com> On November 10, Gene Ehrich wrote: > >Wow, you left beautiful Laurel, Maryland for St. Petersburg, FL?! > > I left beautiful Marlton NJ for Spring Hill Florida and it's really tough. > Every afternoon I have to take a nap out on the Lanai in 78 to 80 degree > temperature and freeze at night as it gets down to chilly 60. I never get > to use my heavy winter clothing and have to wear shorts year round. I don't > get to see the beautiful snow, ice, hail and freezing temperatures of NJ. > It's really tough. Wow man, I feel for you. You really have it rough. ;) -Dave -- Dave McGuire St. Petersburg, FL From mcguire at neurotica.com Sat Nov 10 16:03:00 2001 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:52 2005 Subject: Recent Aquisition In-Reply-To: Re: Recent Aquisition (jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de) References: <15341.26924.364635.526447@phaduka.neurotica.com> <200111102138.fAALcPW01560@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> Message-ID: <15341.42004.414364.249478@phaduka.neurotica.com> On November 10, jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de wrote: > > The M2322K and family are indeed standard 8" form factor drives. > > They're not called "Eagles" though, as far as I'm aware. > Uuups. Sorry. I thought that Eagle and Super Eagle where names for > product lines, not for two specific drives. > > > I really like those drives. > The (Super) Eagle or the later 8" drives? In the case of the 8" drives > you are the first person that I hear talking nice words about that > drives. The most words I heared about the 8" drives are like: "Reformat > them at least once a year, or you will loose your data." The Eagles more so than the 8" drives. I've used a few of the 8" drives on larger Suns but didn't have great luck. Good performance though, especially on the Xylogics 7053 and 753 controllers. > I know. My first QBus disk system was a QD33 with two 9" D2363 drives > from NEC. Very impressive. The first time I simply puted one drive on > top of the BA123. When the drive begun to move its heads, the machine > (around 100kg with the drive!) begun to shake. A big smile run acros my > face when I noticed that. Not to forget that incredible sound! :-) Oh yes! I used a few NEC D2352H drives. Those were sweet! -Dave -- Dave McGuire St. Petersburg, FL From jhellige at earthlink.net Sat Nov 10 16:54:02 2001 From: jhellige at earthlink.net (Jeff Hellige) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:52 2005 Subject: Parting out In-Reply-To: <15341.42004.414364.249478@phaduka.neurotica.com> References: <15341.26924.364635.526447@phaduka.neurotica.com> <200111102138.fAALcPW01560@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> <15341.42004.414364.249478@phaduka.neurotica.com> Message-ID: This goes back to a conversation of a couple of weeks ago concerning selling stuff as parts or whole or whatever. Currently on eBay there is a seller that is parting out an Apple Lisa that was fully functional up until a few days ago and the seller now has disassembled it and has the individual parts listed for sale. Granted, it's the seller's property and theirs to do with as they please, but I don't see the reasoning behind parting out a fully functional system. In the past, the only things I've parted out like that, whether with cars or computers, are items that hold little value due to being nonfunctional or otherwise damaged. Jeff -- Home of the TRS-80 Model 2000 FAQ File http://www.cchaven.com http://www.geocities.com/siliconvalley/lakes/6757 From jhingber at ix.netcom.com Sat Nov 10 17:26:04 2001 From: jhingber at ix.netcom.com (Jeffrey H. Ingber) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:52 2005 Subject: Parting out In-Reply-To: References: <15341.26924.364635.526447@phaduka.neurotica.com> <200111102138.fAALcPW01560@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> <15341.42004.414364.249478@phaduka.neurotica.com> Message-ID: <1005434772.1599.4.camel@Eleusis> On Sat, 2001-11-10 at 17:54, Jeff Hellige wrote: > This goes back to a conversation of a couple of weeks ago > concerning selling stuff as parts or whole or whatever. Currently on > eBay there is a seller that is parting out an Apple Lisa that was > fully functional up until a few days ago and the seller now has > disassembled it and has the individual parts listed for sale. >From the auction: "It was tough deciding whether to sell the LISA whole or as parts, because it does run. We sold our own machine as parts last year and were pleased that so many different people bid on it, and that made up our minds for us." I just can't see any logic in breaking up a machine that's functional to seel it off as parts. The unit as a whole would command a premium that the seller won't get from selling body panels and the card cage by itself for $5 a pop. This is essentailly throwing a working machine into the dumpster. Jeffrey H. Ingber (jhingber _at_ ix.netcom.com) > Granted, it's the seller's property and theirs to do with as they > please, but I don't see the reasoning behind parting out a fully > functional system. In the past, the only things I've parted out like > that, whether with cars or computers, are items that hold little > value due to being nonfunctional or otherwise damaged. > > Jeff > -- > Home of the TRS-80 Model 2000 FAQ File > http://www.cchaven.com > http://www.geocities.com/siliconvalley/lakes/6757 > From Antonio.Carlini at riverstonenet.com Sat Nov 10 17:35:00 2001 From: Antonio.Carlini at riverstonenet.com (Carlini, Antonio) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:52 2005 Subject: Cromemco landmarks Message-ID: <3820E2042B6ED5118DC200D0B78EDC4706620D@exc-reo1> > Carlos Murillo wrote: > >Didn't the uVax II implement some of the original VAX instructions >with emulation? Yes, as did the MicroVAX I. But IIRC it was with the MicroVAX II that the architecture was formally subsetted. > I always wondered what the VUP rating would have >been were they not emulated. Hopefully about the same, othewise they did a poor job of selecting instructions to subset! The instructions that they did not implement were those that were infrequently used and cost too much chip real-estate. Antonio arcarlini@iee.org From foo at siconic.com Sat Nov 10 18:35:38 2001 From: foo at siconic.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:52 2005 Subject: Cromemco landmarks In-Reply-To: <006d01c16853$b87600c0$0b01a8c0@ValuedCustomer> Message-ID: On Thu, 8 Nov 2001, Michael Nadeau wrote: > Alpha Microsystems, which apparently has recently become Optimal > Systems Services, claimed the first multi-user micro, but it's not > clear what date it was introduced. I think they were more like bought out by Optimal Systems Servies. From what I can tell, AlphaMicro, which was one of the last seminal PC companies to survive to this day (Cromemco is another one), became more of a service center in recent years. I'm in the process of cleaning out a former AlphaMicro service center office near Berkeley, California. Minimal hardware, but tons of manuals for their software and hardware products. I've pulled out two carloads so far and will probably need to make another 3-4 trips to finish up. Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Sat Nov 10 18:47:13 2001 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (ajp166) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:54 2005 Subject: Cromemco landmarks Message-ID: <001e01c16a4a$9796ef60$51f19a8d@ajp166> From: Carlini, Antonio > > I always wondered what the VUP rating would have > >been were they not emulated. > > Hopefully about the same, othewise they did > a poor job of selecting instructions to subset! > The instructions that they did not implement > were those that were infrequently used and > cost too much chip real-estate. There was substanial analysis to determine the subset and most frequently used. The emulated instructions even had optimizations even though they fell into the infrequently used bin. Allison From foo at siconic.com Sat Nov 10 18:57:55 2001 From: foo at siconic.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:54 2005 Subject: Apple Floppy Drives (was: More Apple Pimpers) In-Reply-To: <35.1d810de9.291bf271@aol.com> Message-ID: On Thu, 8 Nov 2001 SUPRDAVE@aol.com wrote: > I would think that the only time an alignment would be required is > when disks written from one drive will not work in another drive > assuming the rotation speed is the same. Yep. I only ever had that problem maybe once. > I did need to have a drive aligned once in 1987 or so when for some > reason, both the drive AND the controller card went bad. Not knowing > any better, I tried all my dos3.3 floppies, which hosed the boot > track, rendering them unusable. Never have fixed those disks yet. > probably are still readable too. As long as only the boot track (presuming track 0) was hosed then your data is 99.9% likely in tact (unless screwed from some other problem). > Somewhere in my extensive stash of apple goodies, I do have some > genuine alignment disks but are useless to anyone unless you have an > ocilloscope hooked up and know what you are doing. Anyone can adjust > the rotation speed, however. Yep, all that is needed is a small screwdriver and a copy of Copy ][+. > I still say the disk ][ was the best disk subsystem around. fast(er) > and reliable and decent storage I think at 143k. I agree ;) Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org From foo at siconic.com Sat Nov 10 19:07:20 2001 From: foo at siconic.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:54 2005 Subject: hard-sector 5 1/4 disk In-Reply-To: <004d01c16863$fd55e380$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> Message-ID: On Thu, 8 Nov 2001, Richard Erlacher wrote: > Unlike you, Sellam, some folks actually did useful work with these > machines, in spite of their apparent weaknesses. There were ways in What is this supposed to mean? Can you ever post without introducing rhetoric into the argument? That's usually the sign of insecurity, or someone who knows their argument is full of shit. > which one could avoid the pitfalls associated with the various > problems that were discovered, and there were a number of problems > that weren't real, but which suffered from a high level of folklore > among their user community. GEE, YA THINK!? If ever there was a propagator of bullshit it is you. > The guys who actually earned their living with Apple hardware > generally knew this, and, since I knew what kinds of cars and houses > their work provided them back then, I find it a reasonable way to > benefit from the experience of those who were successful at using > those tools. I don't listen to the guys who were selling used cars > then and are selling stocks now, no matter how skilled they are at > talking about the Apple. Ok, so what you are saying here basically discredits the assertions you were making before, which were that the Apple ][ disk system was such a piece of crap that no useful work could be done on it. Hmmm, people who were able to buy cars and houses from work done on Apple ][ computers sound like they had little, if any, problems with the disk subsystem. So once again, in true Dick style, you are basically now contradicting your previous (and erroneous) assertions. The next phase is when you start backtracking and claiming you never said the Apple disk system was unrealiable. Since I've revealed the plot, you can just cut to the finale and admit you were wrong and an idiot and once again wasted bandwidth. > If that were the case, those habits would have shown up in contexts > other than the Apple. Or more likely your recollection is in error. > Unfortunately, the Apple just lights the LED on the drive and hangs. Ok, so this information is about as useless as this whole discussion has been. What does this have to do with the disk drive??? Have you ever considered that the disk is bad, and that the software doesn't have adequate error handling? > If it were limited to a single system, that's what I'd suspect, but it > behaves just the same on an ][+, IIe, and //c. by virtue of the > physical differences, some of these "difficulties" aren't encountered > on the //c, since it doesn't have drives sitting between the main box > and the monitor. Ok, I see the problem here. You have one disk with a bad sector and crappy software that wasn't designed to handle faults properly. So instead of suspecting the disk (the ONE thing common across all the machines you are trying to run it on) you assume that all the drives you are attempting to use are defective? I'm in tears. Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org From foo at siconic.com Sat Nov 10 19:10:46 2001 From: foo at siconic.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:54 2005 Subject: Apple Floppy Drives (was: More Apple Pimpers) In-Reply-To: <200111081654.IAA19360@ellie.ssl.berkeley.edu> Message-ID: On Thu, 8 Nov 2001, Eric J. Korpela wrote: > > What media were you using? Was it quality media or cheap crap you could > > buy in bulk? What was your physical environment like? Clean and free of > > dust and debris? How did you store your disks? In a temperature and > > humidity that was amenable with diskettes, as suggested by the > > manufacturer? > > It was at a school, a generally clean and environmentally friendly area. Not really. Hardware tends to get abused more often at schools due to student ignorance. Drive heads become dirtier quicker. > Disks were from assorted manufacturers. I'd have to go pull out some > disks to find out. The same disks were used in CP/M and TRS-80 > machines and didn't have as many problems. Diskettes were generally > stored in plastic 10 disk cases. "...didn't tend [to] have as many problems" is pretty subjective. If this means that they too had problems then the evidence would point towards a dirty environment. Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org From pete at dunnington.u-net.com Sat Nov 10 19:21:36 2001 From: pete at dunnington.u-net.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:54 2005 Subject: Windows, std OS in Hell In-Reply-To: Carlos Murillo "Re: Windows, std OS in Hell" (Nov 10, 13:35) References: <200111091446.JAA06356@stage21.ureach.com> <3.0.2.32.20011110133506.00ff3694@obregon.multi.net.co> Message-ID: <10111110121.ZM7719@mindy.dunnington.u-net.com> On Nov 10, 13:35, Carlos Murillo wrote: > At 06:48 PM 11/9/01 GMT, Pete wrote: > >On Nov 9, 9:46, Bill Pechter wrote: > >> ---- On Fri, 09 Nov 2001, Geoff Reed (geoffr@zipcon.net) wrote: > >> Most of the third party add on printer servers come with an lpr > >> capability for Win9x and there's a shareware one on Simtel for > >> Windows 3.x with a winsock. > >> > >> Lan Workplace also had one from Novell. > > > >You can also do it from any version of PCNFS. > > If I remember correctly, you need NIS in your > network in order to be able to use PCNFS, right? > I seem to recall that I did not choose PCNFS > because of that several years ago. You need NFS on the server, but not NIS, thank goodness. Anything that can check the password for a username will do (eg /etc/passwd or /etc/shadow). The way printing with PCNFS works is that your print server authenticates with something running pcnfsd, then saves the file to be printed to a spool directory on the server (needn't be the same server), and lastly sends a command to the server to say "please print that". That's somewhat oversimplified, but I think you'll get the gist. -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager University of York From foo at siconic.com Sat Nov 10 19:17:46 2001 From: foo at siconic.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:54 2005 Subject: Apple Floppy Drives (was: More Apple Pimpers) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Thu, 8 Nov 2001, Chris wrote: > >As far as I know, there is no procedure in the Disk ][ manual for aligning > >a drive, and as far as I know, there is no reason for needing one. > > I don't know if it was alignment (I think it was speed), but I had a > program that you would run, and you would adjust the drive via a small > pot IIRC until the program said it was correct (again, I think it was > speed). That was a speed adjustment, and usually one used Copy ][+. There was also a procedure documented in the Disk ][ manual for using a strobe light (I think) against the striped pattern sticker affixed to the drive belt disc inside the drive. When the bars look as if they're standing still then the drive is at optimal speed. > I DO know that as my Drive ][ drives got older, I found I had to do > this operation more and more to keep them functioning (when it needed > adjustment, it would just fail to read a disk). I've only had one or two drives out of literally dozens that wouldn't hold their rotation speed. In this case, there was something else wrong with the drive that was beyond my troubleshooting skills so I'd mark the drive as bad and not use it. > I also used the Drive ][ primairly stacked next to my Apple ][+, with > the monitor on top, or on a shelf just above (when I moved to a color > TV with line in as a monitor, as it was just too heavy to safely place > on top of the Apple). I never had problems (other than speed issues, > or once a game wrote high scores to the disk despite being write > protected). You're write protect sensor broke off somehow. This happened to me once, and occasionally I'll get a drive that has this problem. Relatively easy to fix. Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org From foo at siconic.com Sat Nov 10 19:23:21 2001 From: foo at siconic.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:54 2005 Subject: food In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Um, is this the CLASSIC COMPUTERS mailing list? Some culinary mailing list traffics seems to be getting mixed in here. As we've discussed before, an occasional off topic posting is OK. A long-assed thread is not. It's starting to drown out my pointless argument with Dick (or is that perhaps the point?) At least precede your subject line with OFF-TOPIC! Better yet, MOVE THIS DISCUSSION ELSEWHERE!!! Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org From foo at siconic.com Sat Nov 10 19:25:05 2001 From: foo at siconic.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:54 2005 Subject: Apple Floppy Drives (was: More Apple Pimpers) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Thu, 8 Nov 2001, Tony Duell wrote: > > As far as I know, there is no procedure in the Disk ][ manual for aligning > > a drive, and as far as I know, there is no reason for needing one. > > There is no procedure in PC user manuals for aligning the floppy > drives. Are you saying such a procedure does not exist? I have the > service manuals for the Teac drives used in my PCs and they include > alignment procedures. No, but as I clearly stated, in my experience there was never any reason for NEEDING one. I've never had to align an Apple ][ disk. > Anyway, look at the schematic on page 146 of the Apple DOS manual > (Circuit Schematic : Disk II Analog Board). TP8 and TP9 are the points > to connect a differntial-input 'scope to (the outputs of the read > filter, as usual). Pop in an alignment disk, move the head to the > correct track, turn the stepper motor to get the right catseye > pattern. Cool. I'll keep this info handy in the rare or unlikely event that I ever need to do this. The Apple ][ disk mechanism is solid. Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org From foo at siconic.com Sat Nov 10 19:32:23 2001 From: foo at siconic.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:55 2005 Subject: hard-sector 5 1/4 disk In-Reply-To: <003e01c1689e$08d9d6a0$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> Message-ID: On Thu, 8 Nov 2001, Richard Erlacher wrote: > My point was that Sellam wasn't old enough to be earning his living > with the Apple ][ back in the very early '80's. I'm sure Sellam has And this somehow supports your ignorant ranting about Apple disk drives? > played with his Apples enough to know a great deal about them by now, > but the sorts of remarks he's made just don't line up with the > magazine articles about those very issues that were published back in > the '80's. People had problems with the Apple][ disk subsystem, but > not terrible ones. However, it's stretching things a bit to suggest > they were as dependable as the 8" units we used with CP/M boxes day in > and day out. WHAT MAGAZINE ARTICLES??? Give me the name of the publication and the general timeframe, and I'll go LOOK IT UP FOR YOU since you won't give me any references. Since I have a complete collection of every Apple ][ and just about every non-Apple ][ magazine, I'm SURE I'll be able to come up with the article claiming the Disk ][ was as unreliable as you claim it was. My guess, though, is that this would be a wasted effort, because you continue to talk out of your ass. > For me, a car isn't something I dream about. I just gave my Maxima to > my son, who drives a lot more than I do, and I'm driving a Chevy > that's old but has <50K miles on it in spite of its 14 years. Of > course I only drive about 2500 miles a year since I live pretty close > to everywhere I want to go. Good strategy! Change the subject and hope your moronic rantings will be forgotten. Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org From foo at siconic.com Sat Nov 10 19:33:35 2001 From: foo at siconic.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:55 2005 Subject: Apple Floppy Drives (was: More Apple Pimpers) In-Reply-To: <004401c1689e$b62230a0$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> Message-ID: On Thu, 8 Nov 2001, Richard Erlacher wrote: > do that. I imagine that if one's VERY careful and fastidious about > keeping everything clean and orderly, which I'm not likely to do, some > of the other problems can be avoided. Combine that with weekly Ok, so the real facts start to emerge. Finally. As I predicted. > cleaning and adjustment of the drives, and most of the problems will > be gone. I'm not likely to do those things either, though, since the > other systems I routinely use don't require it. So in other words, the Disk ][ was fine. It was you that was defective? That's clearly evident. Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org From mcguire at neurotica.com Sat Nov 10 19:52:27 2001 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:55 2005 Subject: off-topic discussions and air filters In-Reply-To: Re: food (Sellam Ismail) References: Message-ID: <15341.55771.594377.139924@phaduka.neurotica.com> On November 10, Sellam Ismail wrote: > Um, is this the CLASSIC COMPUTERS mailing list? Some culinary mailing > list traffics seems to be getting mixed in here. > > As we've discussed before, an occasional off topic posting is OK. A > long-assed thread is not. It's starting to drown out my pointless > argument with Dick (or is that perhaps the point?) > > At least precede your subject line with OFF-TOPIC! > > Better yet, MOVE THIS DISCUSSION ELSEWHERE!!! Hey man, it gets worse. Over on the Rescue list, we're talking about which news network babes we like best. (Personally, I've got the hots for CNN's Rudi Bakhtiar with The Weather Channel's Christina Abernathy running a close second. :)) To, ahem, inject some on-topic discussion here...has anybody found a good replacement for the air-filter medium that' DEC used in the front panels of, among other things, 10.5" pdp11/34 chassis? I've used cut-out pieces of furnace filter material with decent results, but I wonder if anyone has found anything better. -Dave -- Dave McGuire St. Petersburg, FL From foo at siconic.com Sat Nov 10 19:50:51 2001 From: foo at siconic.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:55 2005 Subject: Idea about Registering rare computers. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Thu, 8 Nov 2001, Ernest wrote: > I was talking to someone earlier today about how many Altair 8800 > systems have survived up to the present, and obviously all that we > could do is make a guess. Does anyone know? Also, has anyone thought > about creating a web site for users to add system that they have to it > for tracking purposes. For instance, if you have an Altair, you go to > the site and add your system to the list of Altair owners. It might > list the serial numbers, model, owner, etc. This idea could be used > for many old rare systems. Basically, a registry of owners and their > systems. You obviously wouldn't need to include something like the > Commodore 64 or Apple IIe but at least the more early computers, like > the Apple I for instance. That way, once a system is listed, > collectors can somewhat keep track of them informally. How many Apple > 1 or PDP-8 systems are left? There used to be an Altair registry website up but it wasn't used all that much (only a dozen or so machines were registered) and it's gone now. Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org From foo at siconic.com Sat Nov 10 19:52:59 2001 From: foo at siconic.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:55 2005 Subject: OT and NOT Re: Stacking Apple ][ stuff In-Reply-To: <20011109000823.MAEB25156.femail40.sdc1.sfba.home.com@BENCHBOX> Message-ID: On Thu, 8 Nov 2001 UberTechnoid@home.com wrote: > The article only mentions the '2 pam chloride' and atropine autoinjectors. > When I was in the Seabees in Saudi and Kuwait during the war we tool > Pyridostigmine Bromide tablets and Cipro tablets several times a day and > carried autoinjectors with 10cc's of Diazpam with is a generic for Valium. > The purpose of the Cipro is obvious ( antibiotic ), but the PB tablets and > the Diazpam serve as neuro inhibitors preventing your nervous system from > 'misfireing like crazy'. They serve as something of a buffer to the > system. Great, just what we need. Another off-topic thread with the subject line left unaltered so I can't follow the on-topic messages. What a bunch of retards. Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org From foo at siconic.com Sat Nov 10 19:59:10 2001 From: foo at siconic.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:55 2005 Subject: NOT ABOUT Re: Apple Floppy Drives (was: More Apple Pimpers) In-Reply-To: <3BEB532C.DCBF5707@mail.verizon.net> Message-ID: On Thu, 8 Nov 2001, Eric Chomko wrote: > Bad Boys Rape Our Young Girls But Viloet Gave Willingly > > My apologies to all women, but that little phrase is the best way to remember > the resister code: BBROYGBVGW > > As in: black, brown, red, orange, yellow, green, blue, violet, gray, white You can tell electronics used to be a male dominated field. Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org From ernestls at home.com Sat Nov 10 20:07:30 2001 From: ernestls at home.com (Ernest) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:55 2005 Subject: Apple Floppy Drives (Repairs) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: > > Somewhere in my extensive stash of apple goodies, I do have some > > genuine alignment disks but are useless to anyone unless you have an > > ocilloscope hooked up and know what you are doing. Anyone can adjust > > the rotation speed, however. > > Yep, all that is needed is a small screwdriver and a copy of Copy ][+. I have Copy II+, as well as the Datalife Disk Drive Analyzer for "all Apple II and Apple III series drives." I guess the Apple III has to be in emulation mode though. The tests that it runs are: Radial Alignment, Speed, Clamping, Read/Write, and Autotest (all four) The instructions say that after running the tests, "you'll be armed with the knowledge to advice your Apple II service center." I haven't repaired a messed up Apple disk drive before. Do you have to have an Oscilloscope to fix them, or can you fix these problems without one. I have a couple of flaky microSCI drives that I would like to test and repair. I think that the speed and clamping is screwy on them. E. From ernestls at home.com Sat Nov 10 20:11:37 2001 From: ernestls at home.com (Ernest) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:55 2005 Subject: AT&T Unix for the 3Bx series In-Reply-To: <03a901a8eab9$0af07be0$0301a8c0@margarita.spedraja.net> Message-ID: > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-classiccmp@classiccmp.org > [mailto:owner-classiccmp@classiccmp.org]On Behalf Of SP > Sent: Friday, January 04, 1980 2:38 PM > To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org > Subject: AT&T Unix for the 3Bx series > > > Hello. Somebody knows where can be obtained a complete copy > of the Unix System V manuals and software that came with the > AT&T 3Bx series ? I search one (repeat, software and manuals) > for the 3B2/400, or even the 3B1. > > By the way, I should like to know if somebody have for sale/trade > one AT&T 3B1 or another AT&T unix machine with software and > docs. I have complete AT&T 6300+ computer with ATT Unix System 5/Release 2 (?) I believe. It has all the user manuals, and software disks. There are a bunch of them. I would trade or sell this system if you're interested. I'm in Seattle. E. From foo at siconic.com Sat Nov 10 20:09:28 2001 From: foo at siconic.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:55 2005 Subject: MODERATION PLEASE!!! In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Can we have some god damned moderation around here? On Fri, 9 Nov 2001, Chris wrote: > > Adam was made in God's own image, not that of a monkey. > > My only dispute with Adam and Eve (and if anyone wants to have a > theological debate with me, that is fine, but lets do it civilly and OFF > LIST, as I can wage arguments for and against the existence of god)... > > My dispute is, according to the King James bible (I am specifying a > version, as there are many, but the King James is the one that seems to > have been adopted by the mass of Christianity), God made Adam. Then God > made Eve. Then Adam and Eve had two sons, one killed the other and then > was banished to a far away land. > > Now the obvious problem is, where did the rest of humanity come from... > the obvious answer, Adam and Eve had additional children that just > weren't documented. I don't have a problem with that. What I have a > problem with is, Cain returns to Adam and Eve... with a wife and > children. But if Adam, Eve, and Cain were the ONLY people on Earth when > Cain was sent to a far away land... where did he find a wife to have > children with? > > And of course, God can be "proved" and "disproved" (there is actually no > one proof one way or the other that has stood up to all tests as far as I > have found) with no interaction with the bible, which was written by man, > and thus prone to man's interpretation and man's errors in omission, or > embellishments, so the whole story of Adam and Eve has no ultimate > bearing on the existence or lack there of of God, and in fact, can safely > be disregarded as "folk lore" without damaging the underlying belief > structure of God. > > And that is all I will say on this on list (sorry, but theology debates > can get very heated very fast and aren't usually a good topic for open > public debate... although they can be a very interesting philosophy topic > when rationally discussed in a small open minded civil group.) > > -chris > > > Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org From jhellige at earthlink.net Sat Nov 10 20:18:28 2001 From: jhellige at earthlink.net (Jeff Hellige) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:55 2005 Subject: Idea about Registering rare computers. In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: >There used to be an Altair registry website up but it wasn't used all that >much (only a dozen or so machines were registered) and it's gone now. For some of the rarer machines, such as early PDP's, Cray's, SOL-20's and such, it might be a good idea though for future reference. A great many classic automotive makes have them and their numbers tend to be larger than the early computer systems. Classic aircraft tend to have their registries as well and know how many of a certain type there are and where they are. Jeff -- Home of the TRS-80 Model 2000 FAQ File http://www.cchaven.com http://www.geocities.com/siliconvalley/lakes/6757 From ernestls at home.com Sat Nov 10 20:21:23 2001 From: ernestls at home.com (Ernest) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:55 2005 Subject: Idea about Registering rare computers. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: > Sellam Ismail wrote: > > There used to be an Altair registry website up but it wasn't used all that > much (only a dozen or so machines were registered) and it's gone now. That's to bad. Maybe people didn't know it existed? I didn't. If there was one, an easy way to promote it would be to add a link to it if you have a related old computer web page. I would register my old equipment but I don't think that I have anything that would likely be on a list like that. I think it's a good idea to keep track of some of the old computers, the same why the art community keeps track of paintings by certain artists. It seems like a least a few computers would be worth the effort (Altair, Apple I, Mark 8, etc.) E. From foo at siconic.com Sat Nov 10 20:29:01 2001 From: foo at siconic.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:55 2005 Subject: Apple Floppy Drives (was: More Apple Pimpers) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Sat, 10 Nov 2001, Sellam Ismail wrote: > > I did need to have a drive aligned once in 1987 or so when for some > > reason, both the drive AND the controller card went bad. Not knowing > > any better, I tried all my dos3.3 floppies, which hosed the boot > > track, rendering them unusable. Never have fixed those disks yet. > > probably are still readable too. > > As long as only the boot track (presuming track 0) was hosed then your > data is 99.9% likely in tact (unless screwed from some other problem). I should qualify this by saying that as long as they are DOS 3.3 or ProDOS formatted disks then you're probably OK. If they were disks that didn't use DOS to boot then you may have lost those programs. Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org From dittman at dittman.net Sat Nov 10 20:34:25 2001 From: dittman at dittman.net (Eric Dittman) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:55 2005 Subject: Apple Floppy Drives (was: More Apple Pimpers) In-Reply-To: from "Sellam Ismail" at Nov 10, 2001 05:33:35 PM Message-ID: <200111110234.fAB2YPR07514@narnia.int.dittman.net> > > do that. I imagine that if one's VERY careful and fastidious about > > keeping everything clean and orderly, which I'm not likely to do, some > > of the other problems can be avoided. Combine that with weekly > > Ok, so the real facts start to emerge. Finally. As I predicted. > > > cleaning and adjustment of the drives, and most of the problems will > > be gone. I'm not likely to do those things either, though, since the > > other systems I routinely use don't require it. > > So in other words, the Disk ][ was fine. It was you that was defective? > > That's clearly evident. It sounds like you are agreeing with Dick that the Disk ][ required special handling (like weekly cleaning and adjustment). -- Eric Dittman dittman@dittman.net Check out the DEC Enthusiasts Club at http://www.dittman.net/ From foo at siconic.com Sat Nov 10 20:35:18 2001 From: foo at siconic.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:55 2005 Subject: Idea about Registering rare computers. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Sat, 10 Nov 2001, Ernest wrote: > That's to bad. Maybe people didn't know it existed? I didn't. If there > was one, an easy way to promote it would be to add a link to it if you > have a related old computer web page. I would register my old I had a link to it in the VCF Link Library: http://www.vintage.org/cgi-bin/links.pl I checked it before I replied to your message it came up 404. > equipment but I don't think that I have anything that would likely be > on a list like that. I think it's a good idea to keep track of some of > the old computers, the same why the art community keeps track of > paintings by certain artists. It seems like a least a few computers > would be worth the effort (Altair, Apple I, Mark 8, etc.) I agree. I keep a private registry of Apple 1 owners (no, I will not share it for reasons of privacy). In future times when the trade of old computers becomes more established, provenance will be an important component of the value of the item. Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org From pdp11 at bellsouth.net Sat Nov 10 20:57:12 2001 From: pdp11 at bellsouth.net (Doug Carman) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:55 2005 Subject: air filters References: <15341.55771.594377.139924@phaduka.neurotica.com> Message-ID: <3BEDE908.13E9019D@bellsouth.net> Dave McGuire wrote: > > On November 10, Sellam Ismail wrote: > > Um, is this the CLASSIC COMPUTERS mailing list? Some culinary mailing > > list traffics seems to be getting mixed in here. > > > To, ahem, inject some on-topic discussion here...has anybody found a > good replacement for the air-filter medium that' DEC used in the front > panels of, among other things, 10.5" pdp11/34 chassis? I've used > cut-out pieces of furnace filter material with decent results, but I > wonder if anyone has found anything better. Many window air conditioners use a 1/4" sheet of foam filter material that I have used on PDP cabinets, and is available in rolls from hardware stores and home centers. I also recall that some humidifier units use a foam belt that is made from material similar to the original DEC filter foam. Some the material DEC used is a bit thicker, but I have been able to make the thinner foam work. I also know that Sun Enterprise 10000 systems have a 1/4" thick sheet of this type of foam on the inside of all the doors on the front and back of the system. I am sure someone still makes it, but I don't know who. -- Doug Carman pdp11@bellsouth.net From allain at panix.com Sat Nov 10 21:21:48 2001 From: allain at panix.com (John Allain) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:55 2005 Subject: Judgement Day (is MODERATION) References: Message-ID: <03c301c16a5f$fffd1ce0$8a0101ac@ibm23xhr06> Since this is an unmoderated list you should think of off topic posts as taking the time of not One moderator but that they take up all of OUR time, tossing them. I Used to pre-read things in case something useful coming up, now I don't really have the time. I noticed things getting really bad on Thursday so I evaluated Friday for off topic... Worse offenders at the top. Apologize and stop please. John A. Off topic posts by individual 09-Nov-2001 18 From: Gene Ehrich 22:40:00 -0500 Subject: Re: OT: Re: absurdity (TROLL-ignore 22:33:25 -0500 Subject: Re: food Subject: Re: absurdity 22:26:02 -0500 Subject: Re: absurdity 22:29:40 -0500 Subject: Re: absurdity 22:29:09 -0500 Subject: Re: absurdity 22:30:38 -0500 Subject: Re: absurdity 16:52:31 -0500 Subject: Re: absurdity 15:04:02 -0500 Subject: Re: food 15:07:45 -0500 15:06:24 -0500 Subject: Re: food 13:53:01 -0500 Subject: Re: Nutella 13:54:34 -0500 Subject: Re: Marmite 09:59:51 -0500 Subject: Re: Nutella 08:21:34 -0500 Subject: Re: food 08:23:16 -0500 Subject: Re: food 08:24:57 -0500 Subject: Re: OT: food 08:19:46 -0500 Subject: Re: food 17 From: Douglas Quebbeman 15:54:19 -0500 Subject: RE: food 15:53:27 -0500 Subject: RE: food 13:33:04 -0500 Subject: RE: food 13:30:05 -0500 Subject: RE: food 13:12:28 -0500 Subject: RE: food 13:26:17 -0500 Subject: RE: Nutella 13:07:19 -0500 Subject: RE: food 13:15:25 -0500 Subject: RE: food 13:04:57 -0500 Subject: RE: food 13:00:11 -0500 Subject: RE: Apple Floppy Drives (was:... 13:01:57 -0500 Subject: RE: OT - Re: food 12:36:44 -0500 Subject: RE: Missing was Re: OS9 or Fl.. 12:44:13 -0500 Subject: RE: OT: food 12:44:55 -0500 Subject: Paging Jay West 12:45:38 -0500 Subject: RE: Nuke Redmond! 12:40:16 -0500 Subject: RE: Refilling Toner Carts (was .. 12:56:28 -0500 Subject: RE: Clearly OT (but what the hell 9 From: Chad Fernandez 02:08:45 -0500 Subject: Re: food 01:04:43 -0500 Subject: Re: food 00:59:18 -0500 Subject: Re: food 00:46:25 -0500 Subject: Re: food 00:38:56 -0500 Subject: Re: food 00:31:43 -0500 Subject: Re: OT: food 00:28:54 -0500 Subject: Re: OT: food 13:55:33 -0500 Subject: Re: food 11:01:02 -0500 Subject: Re: Nutella 7 From: "Jeffrey S. Sharp" 14:23:10 -0600 (CST) Subject: Re: food 14:12:57 -0600 (CST) Subject: RE: food 14:11:54 -0600 (CST) Subject: RE: food 08:10:27 -0600 (CST) Subject: Re: food 00:26:37 -0600 (CST) Subject: RE: food 01:06:23 -0600 (CST) Subject: Re: food 00:59:59 -0600 (CST) Subject: Re: food 7 From: Bryan Pope 16:02:59 -0500 (est) Subject: Re: Nutella 13:51:32 -0500 (est) Subject: Re: food 13:07:22 -0500 (est) Subject: Re: OT: food 11:44:29 -0500 (est) Subject: Re: Nutella 11:05:45 -0500 (est) Subject: Re: Nutella 08:04:14 -0500 (est) Subject: Re: food 11:25:18 -0500 (est) Subject: Re: Windows, std OS.. 6 From: "Richard Erlacher" 09:42:53 -0700 Subject: Re: food 09:32:18 -0700 Subject: Re: food 19:54:41 -0700 Subject: Re: absurdity 19:53:09 -0700 Subject: Re: absurdity 19:58:17 -0700 Subject: Re: absurdity (special mention) 19:33:52 -0700 Subject: Re: Windows, std OS in Hell .. 6 From: Dave McGuire 16:03:25 -0500 Subject: RE: food 16:02:08 -0500 Subject: Re: OT again Re: food 19:22:59 -0500 Subject: Re: Nutella 12:06:26 -0500 Subject: RE: Nutella 11:36:47 -0500 Subject: Re: Nutella 19:04:59 -0500 Subject: Re: absurdity 6 From: "Chris Kennedy" 07:26:08 -0800 Subject: RE: Nutella 08:49:09 -0800 Subject: RE: Nutella 06:42:10 -0800 Subject: RE: food 18:26:28 -0800 Subject: RE: Nutella 20:56:24 -0800 Subject: RE: Nutella 08:59:34 -0800 Subject: RE: Nutella 5 From: "Eric J. Korpela" 10:02:11 -0800 (PST) Subject: Re: Windows, std OS in Hell 10:03:35 -0800 (PST) Subject: Re: Windows, std OS in Hell 09:50:39 -0800 (PST) Subject: Re: food Subject: Re: food 16:09:40 -0800 (PST) Subject: Re: absurdity 4 From: Ben Franchuk 08:38:04 -0700 Subject: Re: Windows, std OS in Hell 08:56:29 -0700 Subject: Re: blinkenlights for everybody.. 10:23:00 -0700 Subject: Re: Windows, std OS in Hell 13:52:46 -0700 Subject: Re: absurdity 3 x 2 From: Chris From: LFessen106@aol.com 2 x 9 From: Cameron Kaiser From: Don Maslin From: Eric Dittman From: gwynp@artware.qc.ca From: "Iggy Drougge" From: Marvin Johnston From: Mike Ford From: One Without Reason From: "Sipke de Wal" 1 x 8 From: ard@p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) From: Carlos Murillo From: Gene Buckle From: Geoff Reed From: Ian Koller From: Roger Ivie From: SUPRDAVE@aol.com From: "Zane H. Healy" From Diff at Mac.com Sat Nov 10 21:36:05 2001 From: Diff at Mac.com (Zach Malone) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:55 2005 Subject: hard-sector 5 1/4 disk References: Message-ID: <002101c16a62$0f6633e0$6501a8c0@laboffice> Pardon me from interrupting, I just watch this mailing list, but I have noticed a definite trend. You two hate each others guts, or at least do not respect each other professionally in any way, shape or form. I appreciate that you contribute to the community, and I respect both of you, but would you mind dealing with it off list? Or at least keep the personal attacks to a minimum? I can sort out the off topic threads ("food"), but it is much more difficult to avoid your arguments, as they are usually in on topic threads. Thank you for your time, Zach ----- Original Message ----- From: "Sellam Ismail" To: Sent: Saturday, November 10, 2001 8:32 PM Subject: Re: hard-sector 5 1/4 disk > On Thu, 8 Nov 2001, Richard Erlacher wrote: > > > My point was that Sellam wasn't old enough to be earning his living > > with the Apple ][ back in the very early '80's. I'm sure Sellam has > > And this somehow supports your ignorant ranting about Apple disk drives? > > > played with his Apples enough to know a great deal about them by now, > > but the sorts of remarks he's made just don't line up with the > > magazine articles about those very issues that were published back in > > the '80's. People had problems with the Apple][ disk subsystem, but > > not terrible ones. However, it's stretching things a bit to suggest > > they were as dependable as the 8" units we used with CP/M boxes day in > > and day out. > > WHAT MAGAZINE ARTICLES??? > > Give me the name of the publication and the general timeframe, and I'll go > LOOK IT UP FOR YOU since you won't give me any references. Since I have a > complete collection of every Apple ][ and just about every non-Apple ][ > magazine, I'm SURE I'll be able to come up with the article claiming the > Disk ][ was as unreliable as you claim it was. > > My guess, though, is that this would be a wasted effort, because you > continue to talk out of your ass. > > > For me, a car isn't something I dream about. I just gave my Maxima to > > my son, who drives a lot more than I do, and I'm driving a Chevy > > that's old but has <50K miles on it in spite of its 14 years. Of > > course I only drive about 2500 miles a year since I live pretty close > > to everywhere I want to go. > > Good strategy! Change the subject and hope your moronic rantings will be > forgotten. > > Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival > -------------------------------------------------------------------------- ---- > International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org > From jhellige at earthlink.net Sat Nov 10 21:42:25 2001 From: jhellige at earthlink.net (Jeff Hellige) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:55 2005 Subject: another small step In-Reply-To: <3BEDE908.13E9019D@bellsouth.net> References: <15341.55771.594377.139924@phaduka.neurotica.com> <3BEDE908.13E9019D@bellsouth.net> Message-ID: Well, tonight I made another small step with my NeXT systems. I have both my Cube and my slab at home now and was working on the slab since I had gotten so much further with the Cube while it was in my office. Tonight on the slab I got both DHCP and POP3 email retrieval working while connected to my G3 using Surfdoubler. I forgot at first that I needed to modify Popover in order to send mail, though I know it works because I've already done it on the Cube. Web sites don't look quite right when viewed using Omniweb, but hey it works! I also have Caper running on both systems so they can be connected to Appletalk networks. Now all I have to do is finally get around to taking the NeXT laserprinter apart and replacing it's main feed roller and extraction gear. Jeff -- Home of the TRS-80 Model 2000 FAQ File http://www.cchaven.com http://www.geocities.com/siliconvalley/lakes/6757 From SUPRDAVE at aol.com Sat Nov 10 21:46:13 2001 From: SUPRDAVE at aol.com (SUPRDAVE@aol.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:55 2005 Subject: Judgement Day (is MODERATION) Message-ID: <9a.1c9647ff.291f4e85@aol.com> In a message dated 11/10/2001 10:34:30 PM Eastern Standard Time, allain@panix.com writes: << Since this is an unmoderated list you should think of off topic posts as taking the time of not One moderator but that they take up all of OUR time, tossing them. I Used to pre-read things in case something useful coming up, now I don't really have the time. I noticed things getting really bad on Thursday so I evaluated Friday for off topic... Worse offenders at the top. Apologize and stop please. >> will the offenders get the molten iron treatment? From jhellige at earthlink.net Sat Nov 10 21:53:58 2001 From: jhellige at earthlink.net (Jeff Hellige) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:55 2005 Subject: Apple Floppy Drives (was: More Apple Pimpers) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: It was mentioned earlier by Richard that he used an 8" setup with some Apple ][ equipment. It just so happens that tonight a whole setup with Lobo controller, Shugart 8" drives, and Softcard with CP/M disks has been put up for sale. If anyone is interested in it, it's at: http://cgi.ebay.com/aw-cgi/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=1296027987 As usual, I have no connection with the auction. I'm just posting it in case anyone is interested in it since the controller and disks may not be something seen very often. Jeff -- Home of the TRS-80 Model 2000 FAQ File http://www.cchaven.com http://www.geocities.com/siliconvalley/lakes/6757 From jhellige at earthlink.net Sat Nov 10 21:58:30 2001 From: jhellige at earthlink.net (Jeff Hellige) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:55 2005 Subject: Parting out In-Reply-To: <1005434772.1599.4.camel@Eleusis> References: <15341.26924.364635.526447@phaduka.neurotica.com> <200111102138.fAALcPW01560@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> <15341.42004.414364.249478@phaduka.neurotica.com> <1005434772.1599.4.camel@Eleusis> Message-ID: >I just can't see any logic in breaking up a machine that's functional to >seel it off as parts. The unit as a whole would command a premium that >the seller won't get from selling body panels and the card cage by >itself for $5 a pop. > >This is essentailly throwing a working machine into the dumpster. The seller has gone so far as to pull the deflection coil and flyback transformer from the tube, as well as seperating the cables and other small items. I don't agree with the destruction of a functional machine like this but I don't see how the seperate listings could be justified from the fee versus income of each of the smaller items. Jeff -- Home of the TRS-80 Model 2000 FAQ File http://www.cchaven.com http://www.geocities.com/siliconvalley/lakes/6757 From marvin at rain.org Sat Nov 10 22:25:02 2001 From: marvin at rain.org (Marvin Johnston) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:55 2005 Subject: Apple Floppy Drives (was: More Apple Pimpers) References: Message-ID: <3BEDFD9E.E601E021@rain.org> Jeff Hellige wrote: > > It was mentioned earlier by Richard that he used an 8" setup > with some Apple ][ equipment. It just so happens that tonight a > whole setup with Lobo controller, Shugart 8" drives, and Softcard > with CP/M disks has been put up for sale. If anyone is interested in > it, it's at: > > http://cgi.ebay.com/aw-cgi/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=1296027987 Interesting. Phil has/had a LOT of old computer stuff and is the person that gave me all the Polymorphic stuff (machines, source code, business plan, eng. drawings, manuals, etc.) He has been trying to clean out his garage for a while ... and to think I encouraged him to take a look at ebay :)! From vcf at vintage.org Sat Nov 10 22:57:40 2001 From: vcf at vintage.org (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:55 2005 Subject: New article on Vintage Computer Festival website Message-ID: I just posted the paper I gave at an archaeology conference in Vienna, Austria, earlier this week. It's titled, "The Valley of Lost Data: Excavating Hard Drives and Floppy Disks" and was written with Christine Finn, author of _Artifacts: An Archaeologist's Year in Silicon Valley_ (http://www.artifactsthebook.com). You can find it here: http://www.vintage.org/cgi-bin/content.pl?id=004 Abstract: This paper explores some ideas concerning computers as repositories in the sense of archaeological sites containing data - objects, bodies and so on. The authors, who are both involved in computer history (one an archaeologist and writer on the subject, the other a leading collector and curator of vintage computers in the US) will consider the ways in which material in a computer may be accessed in the manner of evidence extracted from sites in a more orthodox archaeological situation. The paper will look at the type of data stored, the hardware and software implicated, and the ways in which it can be retrieved. They will discuss issues concerning the ethical retrieval of such data and the time-frame involved in the transformation of material to a state of inaccessibility. Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org From CLeyson at aol.com Sat Nov 10 23:03:01 2001 From: CLeyson at aol.com (CLeyson@aol.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:55 2005 Subject: HP9825 Assembler and Source Code Message-ID: <47.13ba6d6a.291f6085@aol.com> Here's something that HP9825 owners may find useful. The HP9825 is covered by US patent US4075679 Feb 21 1978. The patent gives a full description of the HP9825 including schematics, processor description and internal schematic, flow charts, memory maps, data structures etc....and a source listing !!. (600 pages total) Patent is available from http://gb.espacenet.com as scanned images free of charge. I've typed up all of the source and assembled it with no errors. Assembler is based on HP21XX assembler by Jeff Moffatt at http://oscar.taurus.com/~jeff/2100. Email me for the HP9825 source and assembler C source. Chris Leyson -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20011111/02a4cecc/attachment.html From marvin at rain.org Sat Nov 10 23:04:36 2001 From: marvin at rain.org (Marvin Johnston) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:55 2005 Subject: PDP-8 Diode Gate Card References: <3BEDFD9E.E601E021@rain.org> Message-ID: <3BEE06E4.F69C3F2@rain.org> I haven't seen much vintage stuff on Yahoo auctions, but here is a PDP-8 diode gate card: http://page.auctions.shopping.yahoo.com/auction/56844365 From foo at siconic.com Sat Nov 10 23:01:17 2001 From: foo at siconic.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:55 2005 Subject: Apple Floppy Drives (was: More Apple Pimpers) In-Reply-To: <200111110234.fAB2YPR07514@narnia.int.dittman.net> Message-ID: On Sat, 10 Nov 2001, Eric Dittman wrote: > It sounds like you are agreeing with Dick that the Disk ][ required > special handling (like weekly cleaning and adjustment). I would agree that ANY disk system would benefit from a weekly head cleaning. However, I was pointing out that Dick is the one in need of urgent head cleaning. Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org From edick at idcomm.com Sat Nov 10 23:11:00 2001 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:55 2005 Subject: Parting out References: <15341.26924.364635.526447@phaduka.neurotica.com><200111102138.fAALcPW01560@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de><15341.42004.414364.249478@phaduka.neurotica.com> <1005434772.1599.4.camel@Eleusis> Message-ID: <001401c16a6f$40ebe4c0$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> One way to look at it is that if your choice is between selling one machine, working or not, or tossing it in the dumpster, selling it might be the better choice. Moreover, if the choice is to sell it as parts, it brings several others the satisfaction of resurrecting their defunct machines, while selling one whole machine only produces one working machine for one user. Dick ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jeffrey H. Ingber" To: Sent: Saturday, November 10, 2001 4:26 PM Subject: Re: Parting out > On Sat, 2001-11-10 at 17:54, Jeff Hellige wrote: > > This goes back to a conversation of a couple of weeks ago > > concerning selling stuff as parts or whole or whatever. Currently on > > eBay there is a seller that is parting out an Apple Lisa that was > > fully functional up until a few days ago and the seller now has > > disassembled it and has the individual parts listed for sale. > > From the auction: > > "It was tough deciding whether to sell the LISA whole or as parts, > because it does run. We sold our own machine as parts last year and were > pleased that so many different people bid on it, and that made up our > minds for us." > > I just can't see any logic in breaking up a machine that's functional to > seel it off as parts. The unit as a whole would command a premium that > the seller won't get from selling body panels and the card cage by > itself for $5 a pop. > > This is essentailly throwing a working machine into the dumpster. > > Jeffrey H. Ingber (jhingber _at_ ix.netcom.com) > > > Granted, it's the seller's property and theirs to do with as they > > please, but I don't see the reasoning behind parting out a fully > > functional system. In the past, the only things I've parted out like > > that, whether with cars or computers, are items that hold little > > value due to being nonfunctional or otherwise damaged. > > > > Jeff > > -- > > Home of the TRS-80 Model 2000 FAQ File > > http://www.cchaven.com > > http://www.geocities.com/siliconvalley/lakes/6757 > > > > > From Innfogra at aol.com Sat Nov 10 23:18:49 2001 From: Innfogra at aol.com (Innfogra@aol.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:55 2005 Subject: Parting out Message-ID: <12b.7349f60.291f6439@aol.com> In a message dated 11/10/01 8:11:15 PM Pacific Standard Time, jhellige@earthlink.net writes: > The seller has gone so far as to pull the deflection coil and > flyback transformer from the tube, as well as seperating the cables > and other small items. I don't agree with the destruction of a > functional machine like this but I don't see how the seperate > listings could be justified from the fee versus income of each of the > smaller items. > > I, too, was surprised by how many bits it is in, 34. I plan on following the sale to see what he does get. One of the things I noticed about the sale is that the seller is in Ketchikan Alaska. This is about one of the most expensive places in the US to ship out of. It could be prohibitive in cost to ship an entire Lisa. Most of the parts could be shipped priority mail however, at a fixed cost. >From reading the sellers feedback and reviewing his shipping charges I suspect his handling charges are a significant part of the additional charges. The more pieces he sells the better off he is. I also notice his regular business is concrete and scaffolding. His eBay sales are a sideline. Paxton Astoria, OR -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20011111/336f9391/attachment.html From edick at idcomm.com Sat Nov 10 23:24:54 2001 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:55 2005 Subject: hard-sector 5 1/4 disk References: Message-ID: <003301c16a71$32157400$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> I don't have that info, not having dwelt on Apple-related issues, since I heard plenty about them every week at the 6502 group meetings. However, if you look in nearly any BYTE or Kilobaud issue from 1979 on, you'll generally find one or two articles about how to fool your Apple into working more reliably. Some, but not all, attempted to sell you something. In recent months I've had to impose on some of those guys who actually did useful work in spite of the Apple, and one even got out his old Apple][+ and transcribed some Apple materials for me. He was the first to underscore the general fragility and lack of dependability of the Apple][. If Sellam insists, then we can agree to disagree, since I don't think much of the Apple][, not back in the early days of microcomputers, and certainly not now, when we can all thank our lucky starts that we have better tools to use. In any case, I don't miss 'em because I didn't use 'em myself back then, and I don't want to do so now. Once that FOCAL manual is transcribed to a useful format, these Apple machines I have are parts and scrap. Dick ----- Original Message ----- From: "Sellam Ismail" To: Sent: Saturday, November 10, 2001 6:32 PM Subject: Re: hard-sector 5 1/4 disk > On Thu, 8 Nov 2001, Richard Erlacher wrote: > > > My point was that Sellam wasn't old enough to be earning his living > > with the Apple ][ back in the very early '80's. I'm sure Sellam has > > And this somehow supports your ignorant ranting about Apple disk drives? > > > played with his Apples enough to know a great deal about them by now, > > but the sorts of remarks he's made just don't line up with the > > magazine articles about those very issues that were published back in > > the '80's. People had problems with the Apple][ disk subsystem, but > > not terrible ones. However, it's stretching things a bit to suggest > > they were as dependable as the 8" units we used with CP/M boxes day in > > and day out. > > WHAT MAGAZINE ARTICLES??? > > Give me the name of the publication and the general timeframe, and I'll go > LOOK IT UP FOR YOU since you won't give me any references. Since I have a > complete collection of every Apple ][ and just about every non-Apple ][ > magazine, I'm SURE I'll be able to come up with the article claiming the > Disk ][ was as unreliable as you claim it was. > > My guess, though, is that this would be a wasted effort, because you > continue to talk out of your ass. > > > For me, a car isn't something I dream about. I just gave my Maxima to > > my son, who drives a lot more than I do, and I'm driving a Chevy > > that's old but has <50K miles on it in spite of its 14 years. Of > > course I only drive about 2500 miles a year since I live pretty close > > to everywhere I want to go. > > Good strategy! Change the subject and hope your moronic rantings will be > forgotten. > > Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ > International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org > > From edick at idcomm.com Sat Nov 10 23:42:13 2001 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:55 2005 Subject: Apple Floppy Drives (was: More Apple Pimpers) References: Message-ID: <005901c16a73$9d4ae8c0$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> I didn't use an Apple with or without an 8" disk subsystem, but no one I know who did useful work on an Apple][ back in '79-'85, after which the Apple][ was pretty irrelevant, relied on the 5-1.4"diskettes. I did use a 6502-based system with 8" drives that ran an OS that also was used on the Apple. I owned a number of Apple][ boxes for the simple reason that I could get the job (programming EPROMs) done more cheaply with several Apple]['s that I could sell off later after the 1600 EPROMs were done. In the interim, I got significant discount on CP/M software from the dealer where some of the Apple hardware (much of it was used stuff) had been acquired. The software, for the most part, didn't care which system was the platform. I personally have no interest in a Lobo controller for the simple reason that I don't have APEX drivers for the Lobo card, while I do have support for the SVA controller. I'm told the Lobo was a useable controller like the SVA and others. My guess would be that this setup would probably be as reliable as an Apple system of any sort could be. Dick ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jeff Hellige" To: Sent: Saturday, November 10, 2001 8:53 PM Subject: Re: Apple Floppy Drives (was: More Apple Pimpers) > It was mentioned earlier by Richard that he used an 8" setup > with some Apple ][ equipment. It just so happens that tonight a > whole setup with Lobo controller, Shugart 8" drives, and Softcard > with CP/M disks has been put up for sale. If anyone is interested in > it, it's at: > > http://cgi.ebay.com/aw-cgi/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=1296027987 > > As usual, I have no connection with the auction. I'm just > posting it in case anyone is interested in it since the controller > and disks may not be something seen very often. > > Jeff > -- > Home of the TRS-80 Model 2000 FAQ File > http://www.cchaven.com > http://www.geocities.com/siliconvalley/lakes/6757 > > From edick at idcomm.com Sat Nov 10 23:46:31 2001 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:55 2005 Subject: Apple Floppy Drives (was: More Apple Pimpers) References: Message-ID: <006501c16a74$376c9ca0$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> Hey! I just got a haircut. What more do you want? BTW, my 6502 homebrew, not to mention the several CP/M boxes, all with 8" drives, didn't need frequent head cleaning or any other sort of maintenance more often than, perhaps twice a year. Their environment was pretty clean, ceratinly cleaner than what I use now, and none of the drives I bought brand new ever needed alignment. I was occasionally given to buying second-hand hardware, though, and that's how I got familiar with cleaning and alignment of disk drives. Dick ----- Original Message ----- From: "Sellam Ismail" To: Sent: Saturday, November 10, 2001 10:01 PM Subject: Re: Apple Floppy Drives (was: More Apple Pimpers) > On Sat, 10 Nov 2001, Eric Dittman wrote: > > > It sounds like you are agreeing with Dick that the Disk ][ required > > special handling (like weekly cleaning and adjustment). > > I would agree that ANY disk system would benefit from a weekly head > cleaning. > > However, I was pointing out that Dick is the one in need of urgent head > cleaning. > > Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ > International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org > > > > > From edick at idcomm.com Sat Nov 10 23:47:58 2001 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:55 2005 Subject: Parting out References: <15341.26924.364635.526447@phaduka.neurotica.com> <200111102138.fAALcPW01560@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> <15341.42004.414364.249478@phaduka.neurotica.com> <1005434772.1599.4.camel@Eleusis> Message-ID: <006f01c16a74$6b0c3fc0$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> I've found it much easier to dispose of parts than to get someone to take on yet another machine. That's probably what's up here. It's amazing what one will do to avoid simply tossing the things. Dick ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jeff Hellige" To: Sent: Saturday, November 10, 2001 8:58 PM Subject: Re: Parting out > >I just can't see any logic in breaking up a machine that's functional to > >seel it off as parts. The unit as a whole would command a premium that > >the seller won't get from selling body panels and the card cage by > >itself for $5 a pop. > > > >This is essentailly throwing a working machine into the dumpster. > > The seller has gone so far as to pull the deflection coil and > flyback transformer from the tube, as well as seperating the cables > and other small items. I don't agree with the destruction of a > functional machine like this but I don't see how the seperate > listings could be justified from the fee versus income of each of the > smaller items. > > Jeff > -- > Home of the TRS-80 Model 2000 FAQ File > http://www.cchaven.com > http://www.geocities.com/siliconvalley/lakes/6757 > > From fernande at internet1.net Sun Nov 11 00:02:32 2001 From: fernande at internet1.net (Chad Fernandez) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:55 2005 Subject: Judgement Day (is MODERATION) References: <03c301c16a5f$fffd1ce0$8a0101ac@ibm23xhr06> Message-ID: <3BEE1478.EF4068FC@internet1.net> Wow, I was 3rd! Chad Fernandez Michigan, USA John Allain wrote: > Off topic posts by individual 09-Nov-2001 > 9 > From: Chad Fernandez > 02:08:45 -0500 Subject: Re: food > 01:04:43 -0500 Subject: Re: food > 00:59:18 -0500 Subject: Re: food > 00:46:25 -0500 Subject: Re: food > 00:38:56 -0500 Subject: Re: food > 00:31:43 -0500 Subject: Re: OT: food > 00:28:54 -0500 Subject: Re: OT: food > 13:55:33 -0500 Subject: Re: food > 11:01:02 -0500 Subject: Re: Nutella From mythtech at Mac.com Sun Nov 11 01:24:41 2001 From: mythtech at Mac.com (Chris) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:55 2005 Subject: Apple Floppy Drives (was: More Apple Pimpers) Message-ID: <200111110724.BAA37537@opal.tseinc.com> >> I also used the Drive ][ primairly stacked next to my Apple ][+, with >> the monitor on top, or on a shelf just above (when I moved to a color >> TV with line in as a monitor, as it was just too heavy to safely place >> on top of the Apple). I never had problems (other than speed issues, >> or once a game wrote high scores to the disk despite being write >> protected). > >You're write protect sensor broke off somehow. This happened to me once, >and occasionally I'll get a drive that has this problem. Relatively easy >to fix. I don't think it broke off, but malfunctioned (or somehow, the software hit a glitch that managed to override it, if that is possible). I had been playing the game for hours, and each time it tried to write the high score, it would think it wrote, but when the high score board was shown, nothing was saved. Then on one occasion, it actually wrote to it (confirmed that it wasn't just stored in memory as I still have the write protected disk to this day with my high score saved on it). The following game rounds it went back to failing to actually write to the disk. That was literally, the ONLY occasion that the drive in question ever pulled that trick, so I doubt anything was "broken" on the drive, just that it malfunctioned the one time. It has been a head scratcher for me ever since. I never knew if it was a sensor malfunction, or if somehow the software overrode the drive's write protect (which for some nagging reason I thought was possible, as I thought I had non writeable disks [one with no notch at all] that could be written to to register software... but I might be wrong on that). My other (and more plausable theory) is that my write protect sticker had enough play in it, that a physical switch sensor might have been right on the verge of writeable (although, I don't know if those drives used a finger as a sensor, or a light beam, or how far a finger has to pass thru the disk to see it as writable) -chris From mikeford at socal.rr.com Sun Nov 11 01:36:22 2001 From: mikeford at socal.rr.com (Mike Ford) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:55 2005 Subject: Parting out In-Reply-To: References: <15341.42004.414364.249478@phaduka.neurotica.com> <15341.26924.364635.526447@phaduka.neurotica.com> <200111102138.fAALcPW01560@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> <15341.42004.414364.249478@phaduka.neurotica.com> Message-ID: > This goes back to a conversation of a couple of weeks ago >concerning selling stuff as parts or whole or whatever. Currently on >eBay there is a seller that is parting out an Apple Lisa that was >fully functional up until a few days ago and the seller now has >disassembled it and has the individual parts listed for sale. >Granted, it's the seller's property and theirs to do with as they >please, but I don't see the reasoning behind parting out a fully >functional system. In the past, the only things I've parted out like >that, whether with cars or computers, are items that hold little >value due to being nonfunctional or otherwise damaged. In this case I would say ignorance, since a LISA has a fair value as a system, but in a LOT of other stuff nobody wants to pay the cost of shipping the whole thing, but people who need this or that part don't mind as much. Sadly for a more mercenary operation just a few parts get offered for sale and the rest of the computer gets tossed in bins of like parts that are sold as scrap. A typical computer scrapper sells almost NOTHING but the bulk stuff. From jss at subatomix.com Sun Nov 11 02:32:49 2001 From: jss at subatomix.com (Jeffrey S. Sharp) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:55 2005 Subject: New acquisitions: Suns, room Message-ID: <20011111020703.D2062-100000@lepton.subatomix.com> I just acquired my first two Sun workstations. One is a 3/50, which came from a list member (thanks, and don't feel so bad about destroying my cell phone :-) :-) ), and the other is a 3/60, which came from elsewhere. A few monitors, keyboards, and drives made it in there somewhere, also. I still have a Sparcserver 490 in my, um, "storage facility" (read: parents' garage) that was a stowaway from a trip earlier this year. The Sun collection has started. Another list member graciously donated two RX01 units, which will eventually make their way into some sort of PDP-11. So far, I'm met 4 list members IRL. I hope to see more of you soon. The biggest news is that I'm getting some more room. A LOT more room. Of course, another way of looking at it is that my wife has decided she's a lesbian, wants a divorce, and is moving in with her new girlfriend. Either way you see it, I'm going to be making some changes around my house. First, all of the traditional living space and sleeping space will be compressed into one room. The bathroom, kitchen, and utility room will retain their functions. The rest of the house will become my retrocomputing playpen. The detached garage, now devoid of her car, will make a great storage area for stuff I'm not actively playing with. I don't have a large house, but all in all, I estimate I'm getting about 500 to 750 additional square feet to do stuff in. -- Jeffrey S. Sharp jss@subatomix.com From Richard.Sandwell at roebry.co.uk Sun Nov 11 03:05:08 2001 From: Richard.Sandwell at roebry.co.uk (Richard.Sandwell@roebry.co.uk) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:55 2005 Subject: Xenix ? Message-ID: I have an Apricot Xen 'mainframe' which is a 286 based msdos generic from 1986. Its not ibm compatible. Comically, it does have a copy of Windows V1 on its disk which runs, well, like all versions of windows ;-) Its role was a fileserver for an ms-net network, hence the awful 'mainframe' name. I've always been intrigued that there was a port of xenix available for this machine - anyone know anything about that, or about xenix on a 286 based system in general? //Rich From vze2mnvr at verizon.net Sun Nov 11 04:46:42 2001 From: vze2mnvr at verizon.net (Ian Koller) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:55 2005 Subject: Apple Floppy Drives (was: More Apple Pimpers) References: <3BEC7A1B.647179BF@verizon.net> <3BED7F56.5B5D7B30@mail.verizon.net> Message-ID: <3BEE5712.F42CE81C@verizon.net> Eric, I saw that the sphere web site has them too. Price seems to be in the $60 range. I think our high school chem or physics teacher put together a large order, and probably got us both an educational and a volume discount, so I won't pass any judgement on sphere's price, although I'm sure we didn't pay anywhere near that for our's. Eric Chomko wrote: > > I used to have one like that! I probably still do in a box someplace. > It IS a cool slide rule even though I got it after I got a calculator (mid 70-s). > > Eric > > Ian Koller wrote: > > > Fred, > > > > I've got a circular slide rule that fits in your shirt > > pocket and has formulas, conversion tables, physical constants, > > etc. and even a periodic table either on the back or on a pull > > out card. That one is so neat, I'll never let it go. > > > > "Fred Cisin (XenoSoft)" wrote: > > > > > > On Thu, 8 Nov 2001, Feldman, Robert wrote: > > > > (BTW, my 14-year old son has three slide rules and was quite interested in > > > > the giant one up on the wall in a hall at his high school.) > > > > > > A friend of mine has one of those. I'm envious. From vze2mnvr at verizon.net Sun Nov 11 05:15:09 2001 From: vze2mnvr at verizon.net (Ian Koller) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:55 2005 Subject: off-topic discussions and air filters References: <15341.55771.594377.139924@phaduka.neurotica.com> Message-ID: <3BEE5DBD.73DD051C@verizon.net> > has anybody found a good replacement for the air-filter medium Try using air-filter medium. Dave McGuire wrote: > > On November 10, Sellam Ismail wrote: > > Um, is this the CLASSIC COMPUTERS mailing list? Some culinary mailing > > list traffics seems to be getting mixed in here. > > > > As we've discussed before, an occasional off topic posting is OK. A > > long-assed thread is not. It's starting to drown out my pointless > > argument with Dick (or is that perhaps the point?) > > > > At least precede your subject line with OFF-TOPIC! > > > > Better yet, MOVE THIS DISCUSSION ELSEWHERE!!! > > Hey man, it gets worse. Over on the Rescue list, we're talking about > which news network babes we like best. (Personally, I've got the hots > for CNN's Rudi Bakhtiar with The Weather Channel's Christina Abernathy > running a close second. :)) > > To, ahem, inject some on-topic discussion here...has anybody found a > good replacement for the air-filter medium that' DEC used in the front > panels of, among other things, 10.5" pdp11/34 chassis? I've used > cut-out pieces of furnace filter material with decent results, but I > wonder if anyone has found anything better. > > -Dave > > -- > Dave McGuire > St. Petersburg, FL From pdp11 at bellsouth.net Sun Nov 11 07:07:44 2001 From: pdp11 at bellsouth.net (Doug Carman) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:55 2005 Subject: New acquisitions: Suns, room References: <20011111020703.D2062-100000@lepton.subatomix.com> Message-ID: <3BEE7820.C7DAF3AE@bellsouth.net> "Jeffrey S. Sharp" wrote: > > I just acquired my first two Sun workstations. One is a 3/50, which came > from a list member (thanks, and don't feel so bad about destroying my cell > phone :-) :-) ), and the other is a 3/60, which came from elsewhere. A > few monitors, keyboards, and drives made it in there somewhere, also. I > still have a Sparcserver 490 in my, um, "storage facility" (read: parents' > garage) that was a stowaway from a trip earlier this year. The Sun > collection has started. That's good to hear. I have a number of old Sun3 systems including a 3/50, 3/75, 3/80, 3/160, and a 3/470. Playing around with them is fun, and shows both how much, and how little, has changed in the world of Unix systems over the last 15 years. > Another list member graciously donated two RX01 units, which will > eventually make their way into some sort of PDP-11. > > So far, I'm met 4 list members IRL. I hope to see more of you soon. > > The biggest news is that I'm getting some more room. A LOT more room. > Of course, another way of looking at it is that my wife has decided she's > a lesbian, wants a divorce, and is moving in with her new girlfriend. > Either way you see it, I'm going to be making some changes around my > house. First, all of the traditional living space and sleeping space will > be compressed into one room. The bathroom, kitchen, and utility room will > retain their functions. The rest of the house will become my > retrocomputing playpen. The detached garage, now devoid of her car, will > make a great storage area for stuff I'm not actively playing with. I > don't have a large house, but all in all, I estimate I'm getting about 500 > to 750 additional square feet to do stuff in. Sounds like the possibility of a new wife has already been eliminated :) -- Doug Carman pdp11@bellsouth.net From RJOHNSONAU at aol.com Sun Nov 11 07:21:37 2001 From: RJOHNSONAU at aol.com (RJOHNSONAU@aol.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:55 2005 Subject: busses Message-ID: ho buys used busses i have 80 diesel and a few gas some junk ones have to sell next sat 100e texar drive pensacola check me out http://www.ronjohnsonauction.com From pdp11 at bellsouth.net Sun Nov 11 07:48:17 2001 From: pdp11 at bellsouth.net (Doug Carman) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:55 2005 Subject: busses References: Message-ID: <3BEE81A1.2DD2BD4F@bellsouth.net> RJOHNSONAU@aol.com wrote: > > ho buys used busses i have 80 diesel and a few gas some junk ones have > to sell next sat 100e texar drive pensacola check me out > http://www.ronjohnsonauction.com I wonder if he buys MULTIBUS, UNIBUS, OMNIBUS, VMEBUS, ISABUS, EISABUS, or PCI busses? -- Doug Carman pdp11@bellsouth.net From hofmanwb at worldonline.nl Sat Nov 10 18:23:01 2001 From: hofmanwb at worldonline.nl (W.B.(Wim) Hofman) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:55 2005 Subject: Xenix ? References: Message-ID: <000001c16a63$e9e9ba40$d5c8f0c3@cx> I have Xenix that runs on an IBM AT Wim ----- Original Message ----- From: To: Sent: Sunday, November 11, 2001 10:05 AM Subject: Xenix ? > > I have an Apricot Xen 'mainframe' which is a 286 based msdos generic from > 1986. Its not ibm compatible. Comically, it does have a copy of Windows V1 > on its disk which runs, well, like all versions of windows ;-) > Its role was a fileserver for an ms-net network, hence the awful > 'mainframe' name. I've always been intrigued that there was a port of > xenix available for this machine - anyone know anything about that, or > about xenix on a 286 based system in general? > > file://Rich > > From fernande at internet1.net Sun Nov 11 08:27:19 2001 From: fernande at internet1.net (Chad Fernandez) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:55 2005 Subject: busses References: <3BEE81A1.2DD2BD4F@bellsouth.net> Message-ID: <3BEE8AC7.C088512B@internet1.net> Looks like a web page made by farmer Joe :-) Cow milking equipment anyone? He does have a couple of old trucks I would be interested in if he wasn't so far away. Chad Fernandez Michigan, USA Doug Carman wrote: > > RJOHNSONAU@aol.com wrote: > > > > ho buys used busses i have 80 diesel and a few gas some junk ones have > > to sell next sat 100e texar drive pensacola check me out > > http://www.ronjohnsonauction.com > > I wonder if he buys MULTIBUS, UNIBUS, OMNIBUS, VMEBUS, ISABUS, EISABUS, > or PCI busses? > > -- > Doug Carman > pdp11@bellsouth.net From dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com Sun Nov 11 09:15:06 2001 From: dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com (Douglas Quebbeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:55 2005 Subject: food Message-ID: <7A9BACCEF0171D4FB77019F5104CDD372258B7@jeffserver.tegjeff.com> > On November 9, Douglas Quebbeman wrote: > > In addition to being a Hoosier, I'm a Paver, but > > that's a State of Mind. > > A Paver? Wassat? Check out http://groups.google.com/groups?hl=en&group=alt.pave.the.earth and please bear in mind two things: the rhetoric aside, this is all tongue-in-cheek... secondly, while the focus is on asphalt, I'm what's known as a Concrete Heretic. Regards, -dq From mcguire at neurotica.com Sun Nov 11 09:17:12 2001 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:55 2005 Subject: off-topic discussions and air filters In-Reply-To: Re: off-topic discussions and air filters (Ian Koller) References: <15341.55771.594377.139924@phaduka.neurotica.com> <3BEE5DBD.73DD051C@verizon.net> Message-ID: <15342.38520.904358.691046@phaduka.neurotica.com> On November 11, Ian Koller wrote: > > has anybody found a good replacement for the air-filter medium > > Try using air-filter medium. How useful. I'm impressed. -Dave -- Dave McGuire St. Petersburg, FL From mcguire at neurotica.com Sun Nov 11 09:26:14 2001 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:56 2005 Subject: Xenix ? In-Reply-To: Xenix ? (Richard.Sandwell@roebry.co.uk) References: Message-ID: <15342.39062.197020.443748@phaduka.neurotica.com> On November 11, Richard.Sandwell@roebry.co.uk wrote: > I have an Apricot Xen 'mainframe' which is a 286 based msdos generic from > 1986. Its not ibm compatible. Comically, it does have a copy of Windows V1 > on its disk which runs, well, like all versions of windows ;-) > Its role was a fileserver for an ms-net network, hence the awful > 'mainframe' name. I've always been intrigued that there was a port of > xenix available for this machine - anyone know anything about that, or > about xenix on a 286 based system in general? I ran SCO Xenix 286 on a few 286 systems back in 1988 or so. It was abyssmal. I don't remember much about it...I think I blocked it out. :) -Dave -- Dave McGuire St. Petersburg, FL From dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com Sun Nov 11 09:28:19 2001 From: dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com (Douglas Quebbeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:56 2005 Subject: absurdity Message-ID: <7A9BACCEF0171D4FB77019F5104CDD372258B8@jeffserver.tegjeff.com> > >The highest form > >of life in the universe is man. > > Actually, I dispute that, not because of a belief in god, but in the fact > that it is arrogant to think that there is no other intelligent life > ANYWHERE in the universe. Sheer mathematical odds almost demand that > there is at least life similar to human kind SOMEWHERE else in the > universe (discounting freaky but possible Quantum reality theories that > would dictate an infinite number of alternate versions of us). Generally... I have generally held this to be likely. However, noted (and enjoyable) science-fiction writer David Brin (The Postman, The Uplift War) has posited a very plausible theory, namely, that it was necessary to create a universe as large and vast as this one in order to have the combinatorial possibilties tha led to intelligent life on at least *one* planet- this one. And that while the universe may not be teeming with life *now*, it one day *could be*- from us. So, Brin believes contrariwise to Einstein, that not only does God play dice, God plays dice big-time. Regards, -dq From dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com Sun Nov 11 09:37:15 2001 From: dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com (Douglas Quebbeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:56 2005 Subject: food Message-ID: <7A9BACCEF0171D4FB77019F5104CDD372258B9@jeffserver.tegjeff.com> > On Fri, 9 Nov 2001, Douglas Quebbeman wrote: > > > > > Mmm, greens and a juicy steak burned to a crisp. > > > > > > > Poor steak... :( *IMHO*, steak is only good served blue rare... > > > > After the first time I ate a steak rare, I came to understand > > what the creators of steak sauces appear to be trying to re-create... > > the actual taste of meat. > > > > But I want mine cooked enough that it's hot inside... I cut into > > it and detect cold temperature, the steak goes back. > > > Yup! Bring it back up to body temperature. I suppose it would be considered cruelty to animals if we found a way to cook a steak while the heart was still beating... -dq From dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com Sun Nov 11 09:43:30 2001 From: dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com (Douglas Quebbeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:56 2005 Subject: God's Computers (Was: RE: absurdity) Message-ID: <7A9BACCEF0171D4FB77019F5104CDD372258BA@jeffserver.tegjeff.com> > >what the hell is all this bullshit? food and now religion. > get ontopic! > > Ok... what kind of classic computer do you think God used to design the > cosmos... while eating his Nutella? Why, a Plato system connected to a CDC Cyber 76, of course... ;-) -dq From dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com Sun Nov 11 09:44:30 2001 From: dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com (Douglas Quebbeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:56 2005 Subject: Nutella Message-ID: <7A9BACCEF0171D4FB77019F5104CDD372258BB@jeffserver.tegjeff.com> > > > Favoured kids breakfast (and school lunch/recess.....) spread in Australia. > > > Now owned by Kraft, a US company. > > > > Kraft is actually part of one of the big tabacco companies now.... but I > > don't recall which one. > > Philip Morris. One wonders how much ash gets incorporated into the stuff > these days. Nothing that falls onto the floor at a Philip Morris facility stays there very long.... -dq From spectre at stockholm.ptloma.edu Sun Nov 11 09:58:05 2001 From: spectre at stockholm.ptloma.edu (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:56 2005 Subject: food In-Reply-To: <7A9BACCEF0171D4FB77019F5104CDD372258B7@jeffserver.tegjeff.com> from Douglas Quebbeman at "Nov 11, 1 10:15:06 am" Message-ID: <200111111558.HAA09780@stockholm.ptloma.edu> > secondly, while the focus is on asphalt, I'm what's > known as a Concrete Heretic. I've always said it was favourable to have pragmatic religious liberalism, myself. -- ----------------------------- personal page: http://www.armory.com/~spectre/ -- Cameron Kaiser, Point Loma Nazarene University * ckaiser@stockholm.ptloma.edu -- Time flies like an arrow, but fruit flies like a banana. ------------------- From dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com Sun Nov 11 10:02:29 2001 From: dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com (Douglas Quebbeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:56 2005 Subject: Judgement Day (is MODERATION) Message-ID: <7A9BACCEF0171D4FB77019F5104CDD372258BC@jeffserver.tegjeff.com> > Since this is an unmoderated list you should think of > off topic posts as taking the time of not One moderator > but that they take up all of OUR time, tossing them. > I Used to pre-read things in case something useful > coming up, now I don't really have the time. I noticed > things getting really bad on Thursday so I evaluated Friday > for off topic... Worse offenders at the top. > Apologize and stop please. I'm sorry, but I really do think you should have sorted that list by numbers of *bytes* posted, bot number of posts... Of course, that way, I'd have sorted down further in the list. Again, sorry... will stop *very soon* now. -dq From dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com Sun Nov 11 10:05:12 2001 From: dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com (Douglas Quebbeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:56 2005 Subject: Seeking Service Panel Door/Cover for Apollo DN2500 Message-ID: <7A9BACCEF0171D4FB77019F5104CDD372258BD@jeffserver.tegjeff.com> Ok, If anyone comes across a non-functional Apollo DN2500, I'm looking for the little plastic door that covers up the Service Panel switches & LEDs. Although I generally would be likely to run with the panel open, it just looks naked without the door. If anyone needs a pic to see what I'm talking about, I'll see what I can do. Regards, -doug q From foo at siconic.com Sun Nov 11 10:54:56 2001 From: foo at siconic.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:56 2005 Subject: hard-sector 5 1/4 disk In-Reply-To: <003301c16a71$32157400$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> Message-ID: On Sat, 10 Nov 2001, Richard Erlacher wrote: > If Sellam insists, then we can agree to disagree, since I don't think > much of the Apple][, not back in the early days of microcomputers, and > certainly not now, when we can all thank our lucky starts that we have > better tools to use. In any case, I don't miss 'em because I didn't > use 'em myself back then, and I don't want to do so now. Once that > FOCAL manual is transcribed to a useful format, these Apple machines I > have are parts and scrap. No, we aren't going to "agree to disagree" because you're basically claiming as fact something that is completely false. You are trying to make your factually incorrect opinion a part of historical record. You refuse to admit that your knowledge of the hardware in question is based on secondhand information from your admittedly poor recollection, and just above you state, "I didn't use 'em myself back then". So the question is, what the hell do you really know about them anyway? And the answer is, absolutely f-ing nothing. Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org From foo at siconic.com Sun Nov 11 11:02:22 2001 From: foo at siconic.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:56 2005 Subject: Apple Floppy Drives (was: More Apple Pimpers) In-Reply-To: <005901c16a73$9d4ae8c0$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> Message-ID: On Sat, 10 Nov 2001, Richard Erlacher wrote: > I didn't use an Apple with or without an 8" disk subsystem, but no one > I know who did useful work on an Apple][ back in '79-'85, after which > the Apple][ was pretty irrelevant, relied on the 5-1.4"diskettes. I No one you know? What about the THOUSANDS of companies that DID do useful work and marketed the fruits of their effort in the form of TENS OF THOUSANDS of software products for the Apple ][ across nearly 20 years of useful market life? The world is not limited to the feeble realm of your myopia. Stuff does go on outside your door. You're just such an arrogant know-it-all that you can't imagine anyone else being right if you don't have personal knowledge of what's being discussed. And that leaves a whole hell of a lot that you know nothing about, but which you constantly try to fool people into thinking you do. I could call you a jackass but...screw it, you're a jackass. > did use a 6502-based system with 8" drives that ran an OS that also > was used on the Apple. Congratulations. > I owned a number of Apple][ boxes for the simple reason that I could > get the job (programming EPROMs) done more cheaply with several > Apple]['s that I could sell off later after the 1600 EPROMs were done. > In the interim, I got significant discount on CP/M software from the > dealer where some of the Apple hardware (much of it was used stuff) > had been acquired. The software, for the most part, didn't care which > system was the platform. Great. > I personally have no interest in a Lobo controller for the simple > reason that I don't have APEX drivers for the Lobo card, while I do > have support for the SVA controller. I'm told the Lobo was a useable > controller like the SVA and others. Wonderful. > My guess would be that this setup would probably be as reliable as an > Apple system of any sort could be. You "guess"? So in other words, you continue to make assumptions about hardware you know nothing about? Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org From foo at siconic.com Sun Nov 11 11:05:23 2001 From: foo at siconic.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:56 2005 Subject: Apple Floppy Drives (was: More Apple Pimpers) In-Reply-To: <200111110724.BAA37537@opal.tseinc.com> Message-ID: On Sun, 11 Nov 2001, Chris wrote: > I don't think it broke off, but malfunctioned (or somehow, the > software hit a glitch that managed to override it, if that is > possible). It's not possible to override it at a software level. It's possible the onboard write-protect circuitry failed, as I believe I may have had a drive with this problem before myself. > That was literally, the ONLY occasion that the drive in question ever > pulled that trick, so I doubt anything was "broken" on the drive, just > that it malfunctioned the one time. Odd. > that). My other (and more plausable theory) is that my write protect > sticker had enough play in it, that a physical switch sensor might > have been right on the verge of writeable (although, I don't know if > those drives used a finger as a sensor, or a light beam, or how far a > finger has to pass thru the disk to see it as writable) Disk ]['s used a mechanical switch for the write protect sensor. I'm not sure about the later Apple 5.25" Drives. So your theory about play in the write protect sticker is plausible. Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org From ernestls at home.com Sun Nov 11 11:18:23 2001 From: ernestls at home.com (Ernest) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:56 2005 Subject: Idea about Registering rare computers. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: > Jeff wrote: > > For some of the rarer machines, such as early PDP's, Cray's, > SOL-20's and such, it might be a good idea though for future > reference. A great many classic automotive makes have them and their > numbers tend to be larger than the early computer systems. Classic > aircraft tend to have their registries as well and know how many of a > certain type there are and where they are. Those vintage aircraft folks probably know where every last nut and bolt is located, and even rumors of the location of wrecked planes are probably kept on record. I'm surprised that this hasn't caught on more in the computer crowd. It's a good idea I think, and it will surely help in the future. Do you think that computer guys just don't want to register their systems? We are a strange lot, after all. E. From jss at subatomix.com Sun Nov 11 12:19:35 2001 From: jss at subatomix.com (Jeffrey S. Sharp) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:56 2005 Subject: New acquisitions: Suns, room In-Reply-To: <3BEE7820.C7DAF3AE@bellsouth.net> Message-ID: <20011111113428.G3061-100000@lepton.subatomix.com> On Sun, 11 Nov 2001, Doug Carman wrote: > "Jeffrey S. Sharp" wrote: > > > wife has decided she's a lesbian, wants a divorce, and is moving in > > with her new girlfriend. [...] I'm going to be making some changes > > around my house. [...] I estimate I'm getting about 500 to 750 > > additional square feet to do stuff in. > > Sounds like the possibility of a new wife has already been eliminated :) Well, I won't totally eliminate the possibility, but I think I'm going to have somewhat different criteria from now on. So... does anyone here know any single, female, pretty, smart computer geeks/nerds, someone that would think of "writing a compiler" as spending time together? -- Jeffrey S. Sharp jss@subatomix.com From jhellige at earthlink.net Sun Nov 11 12:25:31 2001 From: jhellige at earthlink.net (Jeff Hellige) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:56 2005 Subject: Idea about Registering rare computers. In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: >Those vintage aircraft folks probably know where every last nut and bolt is >located, and even rumors of the location of wrecked planes are probably kept >on record. Yeah, it's interesting reading some of the reports about when they find a plane. One of the guys that works in my building went to Hawaii to check out a crash site on the side of one of the mountains. The crash had first been found back in '91. He got up there to it and it had already been removed. >I'm surprised that this hasn't caught on more in the computer crowd. It's a >good idea I think, and it will surely help in the future. Do you think that >computer guys just don't want to register their systems? We are a strange >lot, after all. I think in the future it would prove to be pretty useful though. There's certainly no need to do it for the common stuff like C-64's and such. I know there's a registry for the C-65's that exist. Jeff -- Home of the TRS-80 Model 2000 FAQ File http://www.cchaven.com http://www.geocities.com/siliconvalley/lakes/6757 From techno at dsuper.net Sun Nov 11 13:45:27 2001 From: techno at dsuper.net (Doug Taylor) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:56 2005 Subject: Thanks Joe.. Message-ID: <003d01c16ae9$6a27c500$b54794d1@dsuper.net> Hi Joe... Thanks for your message in classiccmp. You have already helped me more than you can know, with that web page of yours. What a great resource to find after I typed in "MDS 225" into a search engine and then found your site. You see I've had this MDS 225 that a friend found in a basement of a house he bought and knowing I was into computers offered it to me. I thought I knew quite a bit about computers until I saw this thing. What was it! I had to know. Thanks for your help and take care. Doug Taylor (Techno) Sysop of the "Dead On Arrival BBS" Telnet://doabbs.dynip.com http://www-mtl.look.ca/~techno techno@dsuper.net Doug Taylor (Techno) Sysop of the "Dead On Arrival BBS" Telnet://doabbs.dynip.com http://www-mtl.look.ca/~techno techno@dsuper.net From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Sun Nov 11 13:01:50 2001 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (Ben Franchuk) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:56 2005 Subject: New acquisitions: Suns, room References: <20011111113428.G3061-100000@lepton.subatomix.com> Message-ID: <3BEECB1E.AD36B2A3@jetnet.ab.ca> "Jeffrey S. Sharp" wrote: > > Sounds like the possibility of a new wife has already been eliminated :) > > Well, I won't totally eliminate the possibility, but I think I'm going to > have somewhat different criteria from now on. So... does anyone here know > any single, female, pretty, smart computer geeks/nerds, someone that would > think of "writing a compiler" as spending time together? Would a SEX-BOT do? :) What do you need a compiler for? Ben Franchuk. PS. If she has a older sister send her this way too. -- Live "Pre-historic Cpu's" -- and you thought they were extinct. www.jetnet.ab.ca/users/bfranchuk/index.html From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun Nov 11 12:57:54 2001 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:56 2005 Subject: Apple Floppy Drives (Repairs) In-Reply-To: from "Ernest" at Nov 10, 1 06:07:30 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1224 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20011111/7f78a625/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun Nov 11 13:06:50 2001 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:56 2005 Subject: Apple Floppy Drives (was: More Apple Pimpers) In-Reply-To: <200111110724.BAA37537@opal.tseinc.com> from "Chris" at Nov 11, 1 02:24:41 am Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1233 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20011111/76e57013/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun Nov 11 12:44:24 2001 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:56 2005 Subject: Apple Floppy Drives (was: More Apple Pimpers) In-Reply-To: from "Sellam Ismail" at Nov 10, 1 05:17:46 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1342 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20011111/fffeb2c8/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun Nov 11 13:08:09 2001 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:56 2005 Subject: busses In-Reply-To: <3BEE81A1.2DD2BD4F@bellsouth.net> from "Doug Carman" at Nov 11, 1 08:48:17 am Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 346 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20011111/90f87720/attachment.ksh From spectre at stockholm.ptloma.edu Sun Nov 11 14:21:56 2001 From: spectre at stockholm.ptloma.edu (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:56 2005 Subject: New acquisitions: Suns, room In-Reply-To: <20011111113428.G3061-100000@lepton.subatomix.com> from "Jeffrey S. Sharp" at "Nov 11, 1 12:19:35 pm" Message-ID: <200111112021.MAA07970@stockholm.ptloma.edu> > Well, I won't totally eliminate the possibility, but I think I'm going to > have somewhat different criteria from now on. So... does anyone here know > any single, female, pretty, smart computer geeks/nerds, someone that would > think of "writing a compiler" as spending time together? Funny, my checklist reads remarkably similar. -- ----------------------------- personal page: http://www.armory.com/~spectre/ -- Cameron Kaiser, Point Loma Nazarene University * ckaiser@stockholm.ptloma.edu -- When in doubt, take a pawn. -- Mission: Impossible ("Crack-Up") ------------ From geoffr at zipcon.net Sun Nov 11 14:35:53 2001 From: geoffr at zipcon.net (Geoff Reed) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:56 2005 Subject: Xenix ? In-Reply-To: <15342.39062.197020.443748@phaduka.neurotica.com> References: Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20011111123455.02e8c7a0@mail.zipcon.net> At 10:26 AM 11/11/01 -0500, you wrote: >On November 11, Richard.Sandwell@roebry.co.uk wrote: > > I have an Apricot Xen 'mainframe' which is a 286 based msdos generic from > > 1986. Its not ibm compatible. Comically, it does have a copy of Windows V1 > > on its disk which runs, well, like all versions of windows ;-) > > Its role was a fileserver for an ms-net network, hence the awful > > 'mainframe' name. I've always been intrigued that there was a port of > > xenix available for this machine - anyone know anything about that, or > > about xenix on a 286 based system in general? Remember, Xenix was originally a Microsoft product, they then sold it off to SCO (for a % ownership in SCO) From foo at siconic.com Sun Nov 11 14:55:00 2001 From: foo at siconic.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:56 2005 Subject: Idea about Registering rare computers. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Sun, 11 Nov 2001, Ernest wrote: > I'm surprised that this hasn't caught on more in the computer crowd. > It's a good idea I think, and it will surely help in the future. Do > you think that computer guys just don't want to register their > systems? We are a strange lot, after all. I think it's a good idea, primarily for recording provenance, but I think it's a little premature. Any organized effort to register machines would likely languish due to lack of upkeep and lack of interest. Perhaps in five more years it will start to become more relevant. However, I do see the need to start recording the provenance of machines in our respective collections now, so everyone should try to keep their own records for the time being. Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org From dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com Sun Nov 11 15:02:51 2001 From: dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com (Douglas Quebbeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:56 2005 Subject: Xenix ? Message-ID: <7A9BACCEF0171D4FB77019F5104CDD372258BF@jeffserver.tegjeff.com> > > Remember, Xenix was originally a Microsoft product, they then sold it off > to SCO (for a % ownership in SCO) > I had thought SCO was a spin-off of Microsoft... What were they known for prior to XENIX? -dq From foo at siconic.com Sun Nov 11 14:59:01 2001 From: foo at siconic.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:56 2005 Subject: Apple Floppy Drives (was: More Apple Pimpers) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Sun, 11 Nov 2001, Tony Duell wrote: > For most makes of disk drive, you look at that label under a > mains-operated fluorescent lamp. There are 2 circles of bars, for 50Hz > and 60Hz mains. Twrak the preset until the appropriate circle looks > stationary. I can well believe the Apple Disk II uses the same > procedure. That was it. I can't remember where I read the procedure. If it's not in the DOS manual then I don't know where I read it. Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org From javi at cse.ucsc.edu Sun Nov 11 15:32:16 2001 From: javi at cse.ucsc.edu (Francis. Javier Mesa) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:56 2005 Subject: Xenix ? In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20011111123455.02e8c7a0@mail.zipcon.net> Message-ID: On Sun, 11 Nov 2001, Geoff Reed wrote: > At 10:26 AM 11/11/01 -0500, you wrote: > >On November 11, Richard.Sandwell@roebry.co.uk wrote: > > > I have an Apricot Xen 'mainframe' which is a 286 based msdos generic from > > > 1986. Its not ibm compatible. Comically, it does have a copy of Windows V1 > > > on its disk which runs, well, like all versions of windows ;-) > > > Its role was a fileserver for an ms-net network, hence the awful > > > 'mainframe' name. I've always been intrigued that there was a port of > > > xenix available for this machine - anyone know anything about that, or > > > about xenix on a 286 based system in general? > > Remember, Xenix was originally a Microsoft product, they then sold it off > to SCO (for a % ownership in SCO) > Actually Xenix was never a Microsoft branded product. It was Microsoft's but they only sold Xenix as OEM'd versions to vendors like SCO and lots of HW vendors who then added they modifications to support their specific products (like Apricot, whose machines were far from plain PCs). There were several Xenix versions (none of which had the Microsoft brand). I think later M$ got some kind of stake on SCO. Then again Xenix was the clear proof that M$ can not even compy a great OS correctly. I remember using a version of Xenix that only allowed 8.3 naming of files (like M$-DOS)! Typical M$ "innovation"... pheb! Speaking of M$, I was reading the other day a keynote speech by BillyBoy in which he claimed that DOS got such a widespread use because they contributed with an open architecture, the PC. As far as I know the PC was not open at all (i.e. the BIOS, etc), and most importantly the PC was not their architecture! The key components of what made a PC a PCE were supposed to be propietary, and most of the early clones that used DOS had copied BIOSs which were theoretically illegal. So basically BillyBoy was admiting that his empire was based on the encouragement of piracy by their OEM clients of IBM's IP. Interesting, eh? _______________________________________________________________________ Francisco J. MesaMartinez http://www.cse.ucsc.edu/~javi _______________________________________________________________________ Basking Engineering Ctr #228 email:javi@cse.ucsc.edu University of California Santa Cruz, CA 95064 phone:(831) 502-2073 _______________________________________________________________________ From geoffr at zipcon.net Sun Nov 11 15:55:26 2001 From: geoffr at zipcon.net (Geoff Reed) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:56 2005 Subject: Xenix ? In-Reply-To: <7A9BACCEF0171D4FB77019F5104CDD372258BF@jeffserver.tegjeff. com> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20011111135504.0321c7f0@mail.zipcon.net> SCO had their own flavor of Unix IIRC. At 04:02 PM 11/11/01 -0500, you wrote: > > > > Remember, Xenix was originally a Microsoft product, they then sold it off > > to SCO (for a % ownership in SCO) > > > >I had thought SCO was a spin-off of Microsoft... > >What were they known for prior to XENIX? > >-dq From dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com Sun Nov 11 16:06:40 2001 From: dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com (Douglas Quebbeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:56 2005 Subject: Xenix ? Message-ID: <7A9BACCEF0171D4FB77019F5104CDD372258C0@jeffserver.tegjeff.com> > > Remember, Xenix was originally a Microsoft product, they then sold it off > > to SCO (for a % ownership in SCO) > > > > Actually Xenix was never a Microsoft branded product. It was Microsoft's > but they only sold Xenix as OEM'd versions to vendors like SCO and lots > of HW vendors who then added they modifications to support their specific > products (like Apricot, whose machines were far from plain PCs). We may not all mean the same thing by "branded", but ISTR seeing the banner "Microsoft XENIX" on that Radio Shack 68000 machine whose model number I can never recall... -dq From cube1 at home.com Sun Nov 11 16:11:48 2001 From: cube1 at home.com (Jay Jaeger) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:56 2005 Subject: H7140 PDP 11/24 Power Supply Advice Message-ID: <4.3.2.7.2.20011111160319.02014c80@cirithi> I have had a PDP-11/24 for some years, working just fine (last time I had it on was about last May). Yesterday it decided not to work. Looks like the H7140 supply. The +300V on the voltage doubler is there, but the +13V in the Bias/Interface board reads about +7V. I suspect this is central to the problem. (The +12V Bias is also reading about +7V). When I turn the console power switch, I can hear the contactor in the power control unit in the rack, so I don't think it is the switch itself. When I flip the breaker on, I can hear a "chirp" as though an oscillator starts up. If I flip the breaker off, then about 10s later I can hear the chirp of an oscillator shutting down. Any words of advice? Does anyone have a technical description of the H7140? I have schematics (and can read them at the component level), but power supplies are hardly my strong point -- it would be useful to have some description of just how this animal goes thru a power up sequence. Plus, blind diagnosis will be slow -- there aren't any test points, and one needs to make sure the +300V from the doubler has been bled off before yanking cards to solder test tails at strategic points. It would be helpful if someone could give me some guidance so I knew more about how this thing works. Jay Jaeger --- Jay R. Jaeger The Computer Collection cube1@home.com visit http://members.home.net/thecomputercollection From jhellige at earthlink.net Sun Nov 11 16:16:08 2001 From: jhellige at earthlink.net (Jeff Hellige) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:56 2005 Subject: Xenix ? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: >Actually Xenix was never a Microsoft branded product. It was Microsoft's >but they only sold Xenix as OEM'd versions to vendors like SCO and lots >of HW vendors who then added they modifications to support their specific >products (like Apricot, whose machines were far from plain PCs). Tandy sold a version for the Model 2000, as well as some of the later TRS-80 badged machines. The Model 2000's version didn't work well at all and brought to light all kinds of nasty bugs in the machine that didn't otherwise show up. Most of the later service bulletins released by Tandy for the machine were geared towards fixing these bugs under Xenix. Jeff -- Home of the TRS-80 Model 2000 FAQ File http://www.cchaven.com http://www.geocities.com/siliconvalley/lakes/6757 From cube1 at home.com Sun Nov 11 16:18:02 2001 From: cube1 at home.com (Jay Jaeger) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:56 2005 Subject: Available: DG Eclipse S/140 Programmer's Reference In-Reply-To: <20010822131820.O5412@mrbill.net> Message-ID: <4.3.2.7.2.20011111161727.03cae480@cirithi> Catching up on e-mila... Did you find a taker? I don't *need* it, but if it is looking for a home, it could join my other two copies. 8^) At 01:18 PM 8/22/2001 -0500, you wrote: >In my latest box of DEC docs came a "Programmer's Reference Series" >manual for an Eclipse S/140, circa 1981 or so. useful to anyone? > >bill > >-- >Bill Bradford >mrbill@mrbill.net >Austin, TX --- Jay R. Jaeger The Computer Collection cube1@home.com visit http://members.home.net/thecomputercollection From menadeau at mediaone.net Sun Nov 11 16:40:23 2001 From: menadeau at mediaone.net (Michael Nadeau) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:56 2005 Subject: Xenix ? References: Message-ID: <010901c16b01$e0a789a0$0b01a8c0@ValuedCustomer> Xenix was also a popular option for the TRS-80 Model II/12/16/6000 series. --Mike Michael Nadeau Editorial Services 603-893-2379 ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jeff Hellige" To: Sent: Sunday, November 11, 2001 5:16 PM Subject: Re: Xenix ? > >Actually Xenix was never a Microsoft branded product. It was Microsoft's > >but they only sold Xenix as OEM'd versions to vendors like SCO and lots > >of HW vendors who then added they modifications to support their specific > >products (like Apricot, whose machines were far from plain PCs). > > Tandy sold a version for the Model 2000, as well as some of > the later TRS-80 badged machines. The Model 2000's version didn't > work well at all and brought to light all kinds of nasty bugs in the > machine that didn't otherwise show up. Most of the later service > bulletins released by Tandy for the machine were geared towards > fixing these bugs under Xenix. > > Jeff > -- > Home of the TRS-80 Model 2000 FAQ File > http://www.cchaven.com > http://www.geocities.com/siliconvalley/lakes/6757 > > From donm at cts.com Sun Nov 11 16:45:43 2001 From: donm at cts.com (Don Maslin) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:56 2005 Subject: Xenix ? In-Reply-To: <7A9BACCEF0171D4FB77019F5104CDD372258C0@jeffserver.tegjeff.com> Message-ID: On Sun, 11 Nov 2001, Douglas Quebbeman wrote: > > > Remember, Xenix was originally a Microsoft product, they then sold it off > > > to SCO (for a % ownership in SCO) > > > > > > > Actually Xenix was never a Microsoft branded product. It was Microsoft's > > but they only sold Xenix as OEM'd versions to vendors like SCO and lots > > of HW vendors who then added they modifications to support their specific > > products (like Apricot, whose machines were far from plain PCs). > > We may not all mean the same thing by "branded", but ISTR > seeing the banner "Microsoft XENIX" on that Radio Shack 68000 > machine whose model number I can never recall... > > -dq > Probably the Model 16. Xenix Operating System was copyright 1983 by Microsoft and licensed to Tandy and others. - don From vze2wsvr at verizon.net Sun Nov 11 16:59:07 2001 From: vze2wsvr at verizon.net (Eric Chomko) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:56 2005 Subject: absurdity References: <200111100617.WAA03654@stockholm.ptloma.edu> Message-ID: <3BEF02BA.836AF246@mail.verizon.net> Cameron Kaiser wrote: > > >what the hell is all this bullshit? food and now religion. get ontopic! > > > > Ok... what kind of classic computer do you think God used to design the > > cosmos... while eating his Nutella? > > A Commodore PET 2001. (You asked. :-) > Except for the "chiclet" keyboard it was a decent machine. Eric > > -- > ----------------------------- personal page: http://www.armory.com/~spectre/ -- > Cameron Kaiser, Point Loma Nazarene University * ckaiser@stockholm.ptloma.edu > -- Klein bottle for immediate occupancy; inquire within. ---------------------- From mcguire at neurotica.com Sun Nov 11 17:03:09 2001 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:59 2005 Subject: Xenix ? In-Reply-To: Re: Xenix ? (Michael Nadeau) References: <010901c16b01$e0a789a0$0b01a8c0@ValuedCustomer> Message-ID: <15343.941.244118.143665@phaduka.neurotica.com> On November 11, Michael Nadeau wrote: > Xenix was also a popular option for the TRS-80 Model II/12/16/6000 series. Ahh, eventually I'd like to get my hands on a 16. Someday. I fondly remember when that machine came out. "Ooooh! A 68K!! At RADIO SHACK!!!" :-) -Dave -- Dave McGuire St. Petersburg, FL From jhellige at earthlink.net Sun Nov 11 17:14:31 2001 From: jhellige at earthlink.net (Jeff Hellige) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:59 2005 Subject: absurdity In-Reply-To: <3BEF02BA.836AF246@mail.verizon.net> References: <200111100617.WAA03654@stockholm.ptloma.edu> <3BEF02BA.836AF246@mail.verizon.net> Message-ID: > > A Commodore PET 2001. (You asked. :-) > >Except for the "chiclet" keyboard it was a decent machine. Which probably explains why the chiclet keyboard was soon replaced. They are nice little machines though. I especially like the small-screen versions. Jeff -- Home of the TRS-80 Model 2000 FAQ File http://www.cchaven.com http://www.geocities.com/siliconvalley/lakes/6757 From jhellige at earthlink.net Sun Nov 11 17:15:44 2001 From: jhellige at earthlink.net (Jeff Hellige) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:59 2005 Subject: Xenix ? In-Reply-To: <010901c16b01$e0a789a0$0b01a8c0@ValuedCustomer> References: <010901c16b01$e0a789a0$0b01a8c0@ValuedCustomer> Message-ID: >Xenix was also a popular option for the TRS-80 Model II/12/16/6000 series. I couldn't remember which of the above it was available for, so I didn't name a specific model. I've never used it on any of the above machines myself. Was it any more usable than the version on the Model 2000? Jeff -- Home of the TRS-80 Model 2000 FAQ File http://www.cchaven.com http://www.geocities.com/siliconvalley/lakes/6757 From cube1 at home.com Sun Nov 11 17:40:20 2001 From: cube1 at home.com (Jay Jaeger) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:59 2005 Subject: Adventure for 8080 In-Reply-To: <497A9E0467D2D2119B760090271EB8E5879E3D@MAIL10> Message-ID: <4.3.2.7.2.20011111173836.03c48780@cirithi> Back in the '70s, I did a port of Adventure using BDS C. But it needed CP/M. I don't know if I have a machine readable copy, but I suspect there is one floating around somewhere. Jay Jaeger At 10:50 AM 9/26/2001 -0400, you wrote: >Hello, all: > > I want to do something fun with the Altair Emulator. Does anyone >have a binary for Adventure? I don't yet have the ability to complie >programs in the emulator (because of problems booting CP/M), so I could use >a memory image. > > If someone has one, please contact me off line. Thanks. > >Rich > >========================== >Richard A. Cini, Jr. >Congress Financial Corporation >1133 Avenue of the Americas >30th Floor >New York, NY 10036 >(212) 545-4402 >(212) 840-6259 (facsimile) --- Jay R. Jaeger The Computer Collection cube1@home.com visit http://members.home.net/thecomputercollection From menadeau at mediaone.net Sun Nov 11 17:54:37 2001 From: menadeau at mediaone.net (Michael Nadeau) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:59 2005 Subject: Xenix ? References: <010901c16b01$e0a789a0$0b01a8c0@ValuedCustomer> Message-ID: <012501c16b0c$3c1e8fe0$0b01a8c0@ValuedCustomer> I've never used anything but TRSDOS on the Model II, so I can't speak to the relative usefulness. However, I believe that there were more Xenix implementations on the II/12/16/6000 line than on any other system and by a wide margin. Like I said, it was a popular option and well-supported by Tandy. The 2000 was quirky enough that a lot of software ported to it didn't behave as it was supposed to, and it never sold well enough for the software makers to care much about fixing the problems. Tandy had a hard time convincing software developers to support the 2000, and was rumored to have paid Lotus $250,000 to port 1-2-3. My guess is that Microsoft made less than a whole-hearted effort to port Xenix as cleanly as it could have. --Mike Michael Nadeau Editorial Services 603-893-2379 ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jeff Hellige" To: Sent: Sunday, November 11, 2001 6:15 PM Subject: Re: Xenix ? > >Xenix was also a popular option for the TRS-80 Model II/12/16/6000 series. > > I couldn't remember which of the above it was available for, > so I didn't name a specific model. I've never used it on any of the > above machines myself. Was it any more usable than the version on > the Model 2000? > > Jeff > -- > Home of the TRS-80 Model 2000 FAQ File > http://www.cchaven.com > http://www.geocities.com/siliconvalley/lakes/6757 > > From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun Nov 11 17:52:05 2001 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:59 2005 Subject: H7140 PDP 11/24 Power Supply Advice In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.2.20011111160319.02014c80@cirithi> from "Jay Jaeger" at Nov 11, 1 04:11:48 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 3124 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20011111/870439c6/attachment.ksh From jhellige at earthlink.net Sun Nov 11 18:14:17 2001 From: jhellige at earthlink.net (Jeff Hellige) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:59 2005 Subject: yet another NeXT question In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.2.20011111173836.03c48780@cirithi> References: <4.3.2.7.2.20011111173836.03c48780@cirithi> Message-ID: Does NeXTstep 3.X do something differently with the optical disks than previous versions? A NeXT brand MO disk that I was able to read a few days ago now shows up as uninitialized but a disk that I created under NS 3.3 still reads fine. The first disk may have been created under NS 2.X or below. Both disks are trying to be read on my '040 Cube with both MO and floppy drives. Jeff -- Home of the TRS-80 Model 2000 FAQ File http://www.cchaven.com http://www.geocities.com/siliconvalley/lakes/6757 From jhellige at earthlink.net Sun Nov 11 18:23:29 2001 From: jhellige at earthlink.net (Jeff Hellige) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:59 2005 Subject: Xenix ? In-Reply-To: <012501c16b0c$3c1e8fe0$0b01a8c0@ValuedCustomer> References: <010901c16b01$e0a789a0$0b01a8c0@ValuedCusto mer> <012501c16b0c$3c1e8fe0$0b01a8c0@ValuedCustomer> Message-ID: >Tandy. The 2000 was quirky enough that a lot of software ported to it didn't >behave as it was supposed to, and it never sold well enough for the software >makers to care much about fixing the problems. Tandy had a hard time >convincing software developers to support the 2000, and was rumored to have >paid Lotus $250,000 to port 1-2-3. My guess is that Microsoft made less than >a whole-hearted effort to port Xenix as cleanly as it could have. That could be true concerning the port. The 2000 did have some nice software ported to it though, just not enough. Though the machine did have it's quirks, it's unfortunate that it was largely ignored because programmers chose to bang the hardware directly. It's actually quite a nice machine. Jeff -- Home of the TRS-80 Model 2000 FAQ File http://www.cchaven.com http://www.geocities.com/siliconvalley/lakes/6757 From spectre at stockholm.ptloma.edu Sun Nov 11 18:44:19 2001 From: spectre at stockholm.ptloma.edu (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:59 2005 Subject: absurdity In-Reply-To: <3BEF02BA.836AF246@mail.verizon.net> from Eric Chomko at "Nov 11, 1 05:59:07 pm" Message-ID: <200111120044.QAA08964@stockholm.ptloma.edu> > > > Ok... what kind of classic computer do you think God used to design the > > > cosmos... while eating his Nutella? > > A Commodore PET 2001. (You asked. :-) > Except for the "chiclet" keyboard it was a decent machine. Which works right in, since only God has the patience to type on it. >:-P -- ----------------------------- personal page: http://www.armory.com/~spectre/ -- Cameron Kaiser, Point Loma Nazarene University * ckaiser@stockholm.ptloma.edu -- Since we're all here, we must not be all there. -- Bob "Mountain" Beck ----- From donm at cts.com Sun Nov 11 19:20:04 2001 From: donm at cts.com (Don Maslin) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:59 2005 Subject: Xenix ? In-Reply-To: <012501c16b0c$3c1e8fe0$0b01a8c0@ValuedCustomer> Message-ID: On Sun, 11 Nov 2001, Michael Nadeau wrote: > I've never used anything but TRSDOS on the Model II, so I can't speak to the > relative usefulness. However, I believe that there were more Xenix > implementations on the II/12/16/6000 line than on any other system and by a > wide margin. Like I said, it was a popular option and well-supported by > Tandy. The 2000 was quirky enough that a lot of software ported to it didn't > behave as it was supposed to, and it never sold well enough for the software > makers to care much about fixing the problems. Tandy had a hard time > convincing software developers to support the 2000, and was rumored to have > paid Lotus $250,000 to port 1-2-3. My guess is that Microsoft made less than > a whole-hearted effort to port Xenix as cleanly as it could have. > > --Mike > > Michael Nadeau > Editorial Services > 603-893-2379 Somehow, I am inclined to question if there was a Z-80 version of Xenix and, if not, then there was none for the Model II. - don > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Jeff Hellige" > To: > Sent: Sunday, November 11, 2001 6:15 PM > Subject: Re: Xenix ? > > > > >Xenix was also a popular option for the TRS-80 Model II/12/16/6000 > series. > > > > I couldn't remember which of the above it was available for, > > so I didn't name a specific model. I've never used it on any of the > > above machines myself. Was it any more usable than the version on > > the Model 2000? > > > > Jeff > > -- > > Home of the TRS-80 Model 2000 FAQ File > > http://www.cchaven.com > > http://www.geocities.com/siliconvalley/lakes/6757 > > > > > > From optimus at canit.se Sun Nov 11 20:02:31 2001 From: optimus at canit.se (Iggy Drougge) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:59 2005 Subject: VAX (Was: Cromemco landmarks) In-Reply-To: <3.0.2.32.20011110094910.00fa3eac@obregon.multi.net.co> Message-ID: <1783.716T1550T1825667optimus@canit.se> Carlos Murillo skrev: >At 03:43 PM 11/9/01 -0500, Dave wrote: >>On November 9, Iggy Drougge wrote: >>> Isn't this rather odd? The MicroVAX II is supposed to be 0,5 VUP, right? >>> So what have the DEC engineers done to make it just as fast in the >>>Dhrystone and >>> even faster than the 11/780 in the Whetstone benchmarks? >> >> 0.9 VUP, not 0.5. >Didn't the uVax II implement some of the original VAX instructions >with emulation? I always wondered what the VUP rating would have >been were they not emulated. According to "Great Microprocessors of the Past and Present (V 12.1.2)": Further inspiration came from the MicroVAX (VAX 78032) implementation, since in order to reduce the architecture to a single (integer) chip, only 175 of the 304 instructions (and 6 of 14 native data types) were implemented (through microcode), while the rest were emulated - this subset included 98% of instructions in a typical program. The optional FPU implemented 70 instructions and 3 VAX data types, which was another 1.7% of VAX instructions. All remaining VAX instructions were only used 0.2% of the time, and this allowed MicroVAX designs to eventually exceed the speed of full VAX implementations, before being replaced by the Alpha architecture. Mind you, the original MicroVAX was only 0,3 VUP (I really hope I'm right this time =). I wonder if that qualifies as the slowest machine to run NetBSD. On further inspection, NetBSD doesn't mention any MicroVAX I support. Still, 0,9 VUP is quite little. One competitor might be the 010-based Sun 2s (a new port). Some time ago, someone on thist list used the phrase "though not as slow as a PC523". Is the PC532 really that slow? -- En ligne avec Thor 2.6a. Amiga 4000/040 25MHz/64MB/20GB RetinaBLTZ3/VLab/FastlaneZ3/Ariadne/Toccata From jhellige at earthlink.net Thu Nov 8 12:05:55 2001 From: jhellige at earthlink.net (Jeff Hellige) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:59 2005 Subject: Zenith Data Systems Z-386 SX/20 Free in NJ In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <01Nov11.211910est.119210@gateway.mediacen.navy.mil> >Why can't I figure out how to change the settings? I don't know, it >doesn't seem to respond to "standard" key combos to get into a setup >menu, so I am figuring it doesn't have one. Have you tried ? That's what the key combo to get into the ROM-based setup of the Zenith Z-248's used to be. >Why can't I use it unless it has a 3.5" drive? Because the only place a >386 is of any use to me right now, is to work as an interviewing station >for a particular software package. I would think a 386 based machine would be more easily adaptable to the 3.5" drives than the old Z-248's were. I know people that got them working, but ours never worked very well as the BIOS didn't directly support them until we replaced the CPU board with an aftermarket 386SX board. Jeff -- Home of the TRS-80 Model 2000 FAQ File http://www.cchaven.com http://www.geocities.com/siliconvalley/lakes/6757 From geoffrob at stmarks.pp.catholic.edu.au Sun Nov 11 20:20:25 2001 From: geoffrob at stmarks.pp.catholic.edu.au (Geoff Roberts) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:59 2005 Subject: Fw: DEC Vax 6000-620 Message-ID: <022d01c16b20$a39aef10$de2c67cb@helpdesk> >From comp.sys.dec followups to original poster please. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Joseph M" Newsgroups: comp.sys.dec Sent: Friday, November 02, 2001 3:42 AM Subject: FS: DEC Vax 6000-620 > Dear Group, > > RETECHWEST, http://www.retechwest.com, currently has the following DEC > equipment for sale: > > Recently deinstalled from a Fortune 500, > > (1) DEC VAX 6000-620 w/ the following: > > (1) B1NI Adapter TK50 Controller > (1) T1012-01 > (1) T1043 > (1) T1035 A1P4 > (2) T2012 > (1) H2-P1 > (2) A2P1 T2053-DF > (1) A1P3 T2053-CE > (1) A1P3 T2053-CL > (1) CO1 T2054 > (1) CO1 T2054-AA > (1) AO1 T2019 > (2) H7215 200W Power Supplies > (3) H7214 Power Modules > (1) H7206A Power Module > (1) H-405-E Power Module > (1) 64AMA-YE Cabinet > (2) 36-27843-02 - A1 > (1) H3033 DNB 32 Dist. Panel (7 ports ) > > Also: > > (2) HSC70 Systems > (1) SA 6000 > > > Please reply with contact email if there is any interest. Thank you. > > > RETECHWEST > info@retechwest.com From red at bears.org Sun Nov 11 20:33:40 2001 From: red at bears.org (r. 'bear' stricklin) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:59 2005 Subject: offered: 8-port AUI Fanout Message-ID: I've got an ISOLAN 8-port Ethernet AUI Fanout available for the taking by anybody more interested in obsolete network topologies than I. If there's any interest, contact me off list to arrange a deal. ok r. From gunther at aurora.regenstrief.org Sun Nov 11 20:42:24 2001 From: gunther at aurora.regenstrief.org (Gunther Schadow) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:59 2005 Subject: RA81 problems, someone with a service manual can help? Message-ID: <3BEF3710.7040502@aurora.regenstrief.org> Hi, today I moved the RA81 from the garage down into the Laundry/Computer- Room in the basement. Thanks to my straps and a hydraulic car jack- stand I was actually able to install it in my TU81+ cabinet without breaking my back or getting squished underneath the drive :-). It looks really cool in the TU81 rack. I powered it up and though no lights at these push-buttons come on, I could test it quite far. Thanks to Will Kranz' abridged service manual http://www.conknet.com/~w_kranz/pdp11/RA81.HTM I knew what I could do with the terminal and that CTRL-C will get it going (not CTRL-Z like with the TU81+) and after running diagnostics once, I could actually spin up the drive. Just seeking seems not to work. Spun up diagnostigs gets the error terminal plugged in, 300 b/s, 8 bit, 1 stop no parity ? ^C CTRL-C gets a prompt RA81> EUR^C RA81> EUR turn serial port to 7 bit instead of 8 removes the junk RA81> RA81> RUN DIAGNOSTICS %RA81-COMPLETED TEST:DIAG SUBTEST:02 %RA81-COMPLETED TEST:DIAG SUBTEST:01 %RA81-COMPLETED TEST:DIAG SUBTEST:07 %RA81-COMPLETED TEST:DIAG SUBTEST:08 %RA81-COMPLETED TEST:DIAG SUBTEST:0B %RA81-COMPLETED TEST:DIAG SUBTEST:03 %RA81-COMPLETED TEST:DIAG SUBTEST:0D %RA81-COMPLETED TEST:DIAG SUBTEST:19 %RA81-COMPLETED TEST:DIAG SUBTEST:1B %RA81-COMPLETED TEST:DIAG SUBTEST:1C %RA81-COMPLETED TEST:DIAG SUBTEST:1D %RA81-COMPLETED TEST:DIAG SUBTEST:1E %RA81-COMPLETED TEST:DIAG SUBTEST:1F %RA81-COMPLETED TEST:DIAG SUBTEST:20 this was diagnostics spun down, everything successful! Now I push the RUN/STOP switch in and there comes the sound of the drive spinning up, really impressive! RA81> FRONT PANEL FUNCTION IN PROGRESS then this message comes and a long time nothing, finally: %RA81-TEST: SUBTEST:1B ERROR:50 UNIT:001 %RA81-FRU-SLAVE RESPONSE FAIL- SERVO,MICRO not knowing what else to do I do diagnostics again in spun up mode RA81> RUN DIAG %RA81-COMPLETED TEST:DIAG SUBTEST:02 %RA81-COMPLETED TEST:DIAG SUBTEST:01 %RA81-COMPLETED TEST:DIAG SUBTEST:07 %RA81-COMPLETED TEST:DIAG SUBTEST:08 %RA81-COMPLETED TEST:DIAG SUBTEST:0B %RA81-COMPLETED TEST:DIAG SUBTEST:03 %RA81-COMPLETED TEST:DIAG SUBTEST:19 %RA81-TEST:DIAG SUBTEST:1B ERROR:50 UNIT:001 %RA81-FRU-SLAVE RESPONSE FAIL- SERVO,MICRO RA81> RUN SEEK ENDING CYLINDER? 1000 GROUP? 10 OPERATION FAILED RA81> RUN RECAL %RA81-TEST:RECA SUBTEST:2A ERROR:50 UNIT:001 %RA81-FRU-SLAVE RESPONSE FAIL- SERVO,MICRO At no time I heard any seeking activity. Will's service manual page says this: > D.28 TEST 1B (SERVO PLO TEST) > This test checks the servo module PLO circuitry. > Errors associated with this test are: 50, 7B, C6, FO to FE. I don't see any system fault code on the led bits in the front of the controller board with the hood open after the E7 "test in progress" status byte is cleared. (So I do see the blinkenlights, just there is no fault code besides the error message on the service terminal. Error 50: > 50 Ensure that positioner motor lock is in the unlock > position. If OK, then replace servo module, > microprocessor module So, sounds like there is once chance for me: to find this "positioner motor lock" and move it into the unlock position. However, I have no idea how to do that? It sounds reasonable that this thing may be locked for transport, I sure hope so, because otherwise all my moving and installing this thing would have been in vain. any help with this is appreciated. Not that I depend on the RA81 for operation, but I've got it and I believe in having a VAX collection with 100% functional stuff. regards -Gunther PS: Anyone having dead RA81's for parts? Anyone has spare SDI bulkheads? I need one or two 2- or 4- port bulkheads for the RA disks outside the SA600 cabinet. -- Gunther Schadow, M.D., Ph.D. gschadow@regenstrief.org Medical Information Scientist Regenstrief Institute for Health Care Adjunct Assistant Professor Indiana University School of Medicine tel:1(317)630-7960 http://aurora.regenstrief.org From bdwheele at indiana.edu Sun Nov 11 20:47:44 2001 From: bdwheele at indiana.edu (Brian Wheeler) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:59 2005 Subject: RA81 problems, someone with a service manual can help? In-Reply-To: <3BEF3710.7040502@aurora.regenstrief.org> References: <3BEF3710.7040502@aurora.regenstrief.org> Message-ID: <1005533264.2237.2.camel@thor.kitty.cx> Been a while since I've played with the RA8x drives, but did you unload the heads? Brian On Sun, 2001-11-11 at 21:42, Gunther Schadow wrote: > Hi, > > today I moved the RA81 from the garage down into the Laundry/Computer- > Room in the basement. Thanks to my straps and a hydraulic car jack- > stand I was actually able to install it in my TU81+ cabinet without > breaking my back or getting squished underneath the drive :-). It > looks really cool in the TU81 rack. I powered it up and though no > lights at these push-buttons come on, I could test it quite far. > Thanks to Will Kranz' abridged service manual > > http://www.conknet.com/~w_kranz/pdp11/RA81.HTM > > I knew what I could do with the terminal and that CTRL-C will > get it going (not CTRL-Z like with the TU81+) and after running > diagnostics once, I could actually spin up the drive. Just > seeking seems not to work. > > Spun up diagnostigs gets the error > > terminal plugged in, 300 b/s, 8 bit, 1 stop no parity > > ? > ^C > > CTRL-C gets a prompt > > RA81> EUR^C > > RA81> EUR > > turn serial port to 7 bit instead of 8 removes the junk > > RA81> > > RA81> RUN DIAGNOSTICS > > %RA81-COMPLETED TEST:DIAG SUBTEST:02 > %RA81-COMPLETED TEST:DIAG SUBTEST:01 > %RA81-COMPLETED TEST:DIAG SUBTEST:07 > %RA81-COMPLETED TEST:DIAG SUBTEST:08 > %RA81-COMPLETED TEST:DIAG SUBTEST:0B > %RA81-COMPLETED TEST:DIAG SUBTEST:03 > %RA81-COMPLETED TEST:DIAG SUBTEST:0D > %RA81-COMPLETED TEST:DIAG SUBTEST:19 > %RA81-COMPLETED TEST:DIAG SUBTEST:1B > %RA81-COMPLETED TEST:DIAG SUBTEST:1C > %RA81-COMPLETED TEST:DIAG SUBTEST:1D > %RA81-COMPLETED TEST:DIAG SUBTEST:1E > %RA81-COMPLETED TEST:DIAG SUBTEST:1F > %RA81-COMPLETED TEST:DIAG SUBTEST:20 > > this was diagnostics spun down, everything successful! Now > I push the RUN/STOP switch in and there comes the sound of > the drive spinning up, really impressive! > > RA81> FRONT PANEL FUNCTION IN PROGRESS > > then this message comes and a long time nothing, finally: > > %RA81-TEST: SUBTEST:1B ERROR:50 UNIT:001 > %RA81-FRU-SLAVE RESPONSE FAIL- SERVO,MICRO > > not knowing what else to do I do diagnostics again in spun > up mode > > RA81> RUN DIAG > > %RA81-COMPLETED TEST:DIAG SUBTEST:02 > %RA81-COMPLETED TEST:DIAG SUBTEST:01 > %RA81-COMPLETED TEST:DIAG SUBTEST:07 > %RA81-COMPLETED TEST:DIAG SUBTEST:08 > %RA81-COMPLETED TEST:DIAG SUBTEST:0B > %RA81-COMPLETED TEST:DIAG SUBTEST:03 > %RA81-COMPLETED TEST:DIAG SUBTEST:19 > %RA81-TEST:DIAG SUBTEST:1B ERROR:50 UNIT:001 > %RA81-FRU-SLAVE RESPONSE FAIL- SERVO,MICRO > > RA81> RUN SEEK > > ENDING CYLINDER? 1000 > > GROUP? 10 > OPERATION FAILED > > > RA81> RUN RECAL > > %RA81-TEST:RECA SUBTEST:2A ERROR:50 UNIT:001 > %RA81-FRU-SLAVE RESPONSE FAIL- SERVO,MICRO > > At no time I heard any seeking activity. Will's service manual page > says this: > > > D.28 TEST 1B (SERVO PLO TEST) > > This test checks the servo module PLO circuitry. > > Errors associated with this test are: 50, 7B, C6, FO to FE. > > I don't see any system fault code on the led bits in the front of > the controller board with the hood open after the E7 "test in > progress" status byte is cleared. (So I do see the blinkenlights, > just there is no fault code besides the error message on the > service terminal. > > Error 50: > > > 50 Ensure that positioner motor lock is in the unlock > > position. If OK, then replace servo module, > > microprocessor module > > So, sounds like there is once chance for me: to find this > "positioner motor lock" and move it into the unlock position. > However, I have no idea how to do that? It sounds reasonable > that this thing may be locked for transport, I sure hope > so, because otherwise all my moving and installing this > thing would have been in vain. > > any help with this is appreciated. Not that I depend on the > RA81 for operation, but I've got it and I believe in having > a VAX collection with 100% functional stuff. > > regards > -Gunther > > > PS: Anyone having dead RA81's for parts? Anyone has spare > SDI bulkheads? I need one or two 2- or 4- port bulkheads > for the RA disks outside the SA600 cabinet. > > From vze2wsvr at verizon.net Sun Nov 11 20:56:34 2001 From: vze2wsvr at verizon.net (Eric Chomko) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:59 2005 Subject: busses References: <3BEE81A1.2DD2BD4F@bellsouth.net> Message-ID: <3BEF3A62.CF052A41@mail.verizon.net> Doug Carman wrote: > RJOHNSONAU@aol.com wrote: > > > > ho buys used busses i have 80 diesel and a few gas some junk ones have > > to sell next sat 100e texar drive pensacola check me out > > http://www.ronjohnsonauction.com > > I wonder if he buys MULTIBUS, UNIBUS, OMNIBUS, VMEBUS, ISABUS, EISABUS, > or PCI busses? Or NuBus, S-100 bus, SS-50 bus, Benton Harbor bus, Versabus, or Pet bus? Eric > > > -- > Doug Carman > pdp11@bellsouth.net From bdwheele at indiana.edu Sun Nov 11 20:58:30 2001 From: bdwheele at indiana.edu (Brian Wheeler) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:59 2005 Subject: RA81 problems, someone with a service manual can help? In-Reply-To: <1005533264.2237.2.camel@thor.kitty.cx> References: <3BEF3710.7040502@aurora.regenstrief.org> <1005533264.2237.2.camel@thor.kitty.cx> Message-ID: <1005533910.2237.4.camel@thor.kitty.cx> On Sun, 2001-11-11 at 21:47, Brian Wheeler wrote: > Been a while since I've played with the RA8x drives, but did you unload > the heads? > > Brian > Oops "unlock" :) Brian > > On Sun, 2001-11-11 at 21:42, Gunther Schadow wrote: > > Hi, > > > > today I moved the RA81 from the garage down into the Laundry/Computer- > > Room in the basement. Thanks to my straps and a hydraulic car jack- > > stand I was actually able to install it in my TU81+ cabinet without > > breaking my back or getting squished underneath the drive :-). It > > looks really cool in the TU81 rack. I powered it up and though no > > lights at these push-buttons come on, I could test it quite far. > > Thanks to Will Kranz' abridged service manual > > > > http://www.conknet.com/~w_kranz/pdp11/RA81.HTM > > > > I knew what I could do with the terminal and that CTRL-C will > > get it going (not CTRL-Z like with the TU81+) and after running > > diagnostics once, I could actually spin up the drive. Just > > seeking seems not to work. > > > > Spun up diagnostigs gets the error > > > > terminal plugged in, 300 b/s, 8 bit, 1 stop no parity > > > > ? > > ^C > > > > CTRL-C gets a prompt > > > > RA81> EUR^C > > > > RA81> EUR > > > > turn serial port to 7 bit instead of 8 removes the junk > > > > RA81> > > > > RA81> RUN DIAGNOSTICS > > > > %RA81-COMPLETED TEST:DIAG SUBTEST:02 > > %RA81-COMPLETED TEST:DIAG SUBTEST:01 > > %RA81-COMPLETED TEST:DIAG SUBTEST:07 > > %RA81-COMPLETED TEST:DIAG SUBTEST:08 > > %RA81-COMPLETED TEST:DIAG SUBTEST:0B > > %RA81-COMPLETED TEST:DIAG SUBTEST:03 > > %RA81-COMPLETED TEST:DIAG SUBTEST:0D > > %RA81-COMPLETED TEST:DIAG SUBTEST:19 > > %RA81-COMPLETED TEST:DIAG SUBTEST:1B > > %RA81-COMPLETED TEST:DIAG SUBTEST:1C > > %RA81-COMPLETED TEST:DIAG SUBTEST:1D > > %RA81-COMPLETED TEST:DIAG SUBTEST:1E > > %RA81-COMPLETED TEST:DIAG SUBTEST:1F > > %RA81-COMPLETED TEST:DIAG SUBTEST:20 > > > > this was diagnostics spun down, everything successful! Now > > I push the RUN/STOP switch in and there comes the sound of > > the drive spinning up, really impressive! > > > > RA81> FRONT PANEL FUNCTION IN PROGRESS > > > > then this message comes and a long time nothing, finally: > > > > %RA81-TEST: SUBTEST:1B ERROR:50 UNIT:001 > > %RA81-FRU-SLAVE RESPONSE FAIL- SERVO,MICRO > > > > not knowing what else to do I do diagnostics again in spun > > up mode > > > > RA81> RUN DIAG > > > > %RA81-COMPLETED TEST:DIAG SUBTEST:02 > > %RA81-COMPLETED TEST:DIAG SUBTEST:01 > > %RA81-COMPLETED TEST:DIAG SUBTEST:07 > > %RA81-COMPLETED TEST:DIAG SUBTEST:08 > > %RA81-COMPLETED TEST:DIAG SUBTEST:0B > > %RA81-COMPLETED TEST:DIAG SUBTEST:03 > > %RA81-COMPLETED TEST:DIAG SUBTEST:19 > > %RA81-TEST:DIAG SUBTEST:1B ERROR:50 UNIT:001 > > %RA81-FRU-SLAVE RESPONSE FAIL- SERVO,MICRO > > > > RA81> RUN SEEK > > > > ENDING CYLINDER? 1000 > > > > GROUP? 10 > > OPERATION FAILED > > > > > > RA81> RUN RECAL > > > > %RA81-TEST:RECA SUBTEST:2A ERROR:50 UNIT:001 > > %RA81-FRU-SLAVE RESPONSE FAIL- SERVO,MICRO > > > > At no time I heard any seeking activity. Will's service manual page > > says this: > > > > > D.28 TEST 1B (SERVO PLO TEST) > > > This test checks the servo module PLO circuitry. > > > Errors associated with this test are: 50, 7B, C6, FO to FE. > > > > I don't see any system fault code on the led bits in the front of > > the controller board with the hood open after the E7 "test in > > progress" status byte is cleared. (So I do see the blinkenlights, > > just there is no fault code besides the error message on the > > service terminal. > > > > Error 50: > > > > > 50 Ensure that positioner motor lock is in the unlock > > > position. If OK, then replace servo module, > > > microprocessor module > > > > So, sounds like there is once chance for me: to find this > > "positioner motor lock" and move it into the unlock position. > > However, I have no idea how to do that? It sounds reasonable > > that this thing may be locked for transport, I sure hope > > so, because otherwise all my moving and installing this > > thing would have been in vain. > > > > any help with this is appreciated. Not that I depend on the > > RA81 for operation, but I've got it and I believe in having > > a VAX collection with 100% functional stuff. > > > > regards > > -Gunther > > > > > > PS: Anyone having dead RA81's for parts? Anyone has spare > > SDI bulkheads? I need one or two 2- or 4- port bulkheads > > for the RA disks outside the SA600 cabinet. > > > > From optimus at canit.se Sun Nov 11 21:22:39 2001 From: optimus at canit.se (Iggy Drougge) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:59 2005 Subject: 100 Mb ARCnet? Message-ID: <234.716T1950T2626015optimus@canit.se> I found this link on USENET: http://cgi.ebay.de/aw-cgi/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=1294262119 Is it a 100 Mb ARCnet card? 100 Mb ARCnet? The ThomasConrad name implies that is the case, but 100 Mb ARCnet? -- En ligne avec Thor 2.6a. From gwynp at artware.qc.ca Sun Nov 11 21:32:18 2001 From: gwynp at artware.qc.ca (gwynp@artware.qc.ca) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:59 2005 Subject: busses In-Reply-To: <3BEF3A62.CF052A41@mail.verizon.net> Message-ID: On 12-Nov-2001 Eric Chomko wrote: > > > Doug Carman wrote: > >> RJOHNSONAU@aol.com wrote: >> > >> > ho buys used busses i have 80 diesel and a few gas some junk >> > ones have >> > to sell next sat 100e texar drive pensacola check me out >> > http://www.ronjohnsonauction.com >> >> I wonder if he buys MULTIBUS, UNIBUS, OMNIBUS, VMEBUS, ISABUS, EISABUS, >> or PCI busses? > > Or NuBus, S-100 bus, SS-50 bus, Benton Harbor bus, Versabus, or Pet > bus? Sing, Micheal, sing / from the roof of the 19 bus -Philip From UberTechnoid at home.com Sun Nov 11 21:34:49 2001 From: UberTechnoid at home.com (UberTechnoid@home.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:59 2005 Subject: Windows, std OS in Hell In-Reply-To: <3BEC10F4.96599E7C@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <20011112033829.OROG9575.femail23.sdc1.sfba.home.com@BENCHBOX> Not to be perceived as a defender of Microsoft or Window but that message has a reason. Some hardware if probed will cause a lockup of the system regardless of the OS running. The NE2000 and true compatibles are just such cards. If you probe for one at base 300 and the card isn't there, instant crash. This is why warp and linux don't pick NE's up at this address automatically. The probe writer's knew this would happen and just didn't probe there.... Regards, Jeff In <3BEC10F4.96599E7C@jetnet.ab.ca>, on 11/09/01 at 10:23 AM, Ben Franchuk said: >> >> I guess you have never installed Windows where it crashed while detecting all >> of the hardware on the computer... There is even a message to tell you what >> to do if the computer stops functioning for a long period of time.. >> "Power off the computer, wait a few minutes and turn back on" -- ----------------------------------------------------------- Jeffrey S. Worley Asheville, NC USA 828-6984887 UberTechnoid@Home.com ----------------------------------------------------------- From red at bears.org Sun Nov 11 21:42:13 2001 From: red at bears.org (r. 'bear' stricklin) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:59 2005 Subject: 100 Mb ARCnet? In-Reply-To: <234.716T1950T2626015optimus@canit.se> Message-ID: On 12 Nov 2001, Iggy Drougge wrote: > Is it a 100 Mb ARCnet card? 100 Mb ARCnet? > The ThomasConrad name implies that is the case, but 100 Mb ARCnet? Nope. It's a topology which is proprietary to Thomas-Conrad, called "TCNS". It _is_ 100 mbit though. ok r. From UberTechnoid at home.com Sun Nov 11 21:41:19 2001 From: UberTechnoid at home.com (UberTechnoid@home.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:59 2005 Subject: Xenix ? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20011112034257.NLTR25027.femail19.sdc1.sfba.home.com@BENCHBOX> Without going too far out on a limb, Xenix is a 16bit xnix clone from MS. Should run fine on your 286 with 4mb. I don't really know what the ram requirements are, but it shouldn't be dramatic in the least. Regards, Jeff A hotel chain I work with still uses it in it's satellite network. Seems to work well for them but I haven't been inside it since those machines are handled by another contractor. In , on 11/11/01 at 09:05 AM, Richard.Sandwell@roebry.co.uk said: >I have an Apricot Xen 'mainframe' which is a 286 based msdos generic from >1986. Its not ibm compatible. Comically, it does have a copy of Windows >V1 on its disk which runs, well, like all versions of windows ;-) Its >role was a fileserver for an ms-net network, hence the awful 'mainframe' >name. I've always been intrigued that there was a port of xenix >available for this machine - anyone know anything about that, or about >xenix on a 286 based system in general? >//Rich -- ----------------------------------------------------------- Jeffrey S. Worley Asheville, NC USA 828-6984887 UberTechnoid@Home.com ----------------------------------------------------------- From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Sun Nov 11 21:45:49 2001 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (Ben Franchuk) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:59 2005 Subject: Xenix ? References: Message-ID: <3BEF45ED.4C216AE7@jetnet.ab.ca> Don Maslin wrote: > Somehow, I am inclined to question if there was a Z-80 version of Xenix > and, if not, then there was none for the Model II. The only OS that came close to Unix for 8 bit micros was OS/9 for the 6809 and even then you needed a external MMU. Was not Xenix limited to a 64K code and 64k data segment on the PC? If this was the case this could be one factor in its demise. Another factor is RS started their clones of the pc at this time as well a large cost for the software compared to DOS. Ben Franchuk. -- Live "Pre-historic Cpu's" -- and you thought they were extinct. www.jetnet.ab.ca/users/bfranchuk/index.html From UberTechnoid at home.com Sun Nov 11 21:44:23 2001 From: UberTechnoid at home.com (UberTechnoid@home.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:59 2005 Subject: Xenix ? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20011112034853.CHGZ9778.femail9.sdc1.sfba.home.com@BENCHBOX> The way I remember it, most of the clone makers of the time were scared to death of IBM and the forthcoming lawsuit were they to use a copied bios in a machine. Companies like Sanyo (mbc series) and Victor (remember the v9000?) used bios's that were Bdos compatible meaning that programs that stayed within the DOS environment and made dos calls (such as PKZIP) would work fine but software written for the PC's hardware would not. There were patches etc. Kinda like the PC junior but the hardware was better.... Pheonix was the first company to release a 'clean-room' PC compatible bios - to much fanfare as I recall. This opened the door to other makers and thier clean-room bios products to join the fray. As far as open architecture, ISA was very well documented and noone needed to pay IBM to use the buss. MCA was a different story. The PC wasn't an open architecture, but the effects were something of the same. Heck there are ISA slots on Amigas, Ataris, etc..... Regards, Jeff In , on 11/11/01 at 01:32 PM, "Francis. Javier Mesa" said: >Speaking of M$, I was reading the other day a keynote speech by BillyBoy >in which he claimed that DOS got such a widespread use because they >contributed with an open architecture, the PC. As far as I know the PC >was not open at all (i.e. the BIOS, etc), and most importantly the PC was >not their architecture! The key components of what made a PC a PCE were >supposed to be propietary, and most of the early clones that used DOS had >copied BIOSs which were theoretically illegal. So basically BillyBoy was >admiting that his empire was based on the encouragement of piracy by >their OEM clients of IBM's IP. Interesting, eh? -- ----------------------------------------------------------- Jeffrey S. Worley Asheville, NC USA 828-6984887 UberTechnoid@Home.com ----------------------------------------------------------- From UberTechnoid at home.com Sun Nov 11 21:50:44 2001 From: UberTechnoid at home.com (UberTechnoid@home.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:59 2005 Subject: absurdity In-Reply-To: <3BEF02BA.836AF246@mail.verizon.net> Message-ID: <20011112035107.XLMN19554.femail2.sdc1.sfba.home.com@BENCHBOX> Jeeeez. Topview. Now there's a blast from the past.... Regards, Jeff In <3BEF02BA.836AF246@mail.verizon.net>, on 11/11/01 at 05:59 PM, Eric Chomko said: >Cameron Kaiser wrote: >> > >what the hell is all this bullshit? food and now religion. get ontopic! >> > >> > Ok... what kind of classic computer do you think God used to design the >> > cosmos... while eating his Nutella? >> >> A Commodore PET 2001. (You asked. :-) >> >Except for the "chiclet" keyboard it was a decent machine. >Eric >> >> -- >> ----------------------------- personal page: http://www.armory.com/~spectre/ -- >> Cameron Kaiser, Point Loma Nazarene University * ckaiser@stockholm.ptloma.edu >> -- Klein bottle for immediate occupancy; inquire within. ---------------------- -- ----------------------------------------------------------- Jeffrey S. Worley Asheville, NC USA 828-6984887 UberTechnoid@Home.com ----------------------------------------------------------- From cmurillo at emtelsa.multi.net.co Sun Nov 11 21:30:17 2001 From: cmurillo at emtelsa.multi.net.co (Carlos Murillo) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:59 2005 Subject: VAX (Was: Cromemco landmarks) In-Reply-To: <1783.716T1550T1825667optimus@canit.se> References: <3.0.2.32.20011110094910.00fa3eac@obregon.multi.net.co> Message-ID: <3.0.2.32.20011111223017.00f5db14@obregon.multi.net.co> At 03:02 AM 11/12/01 +0100, Iggy wrote: >Carlos Murillo skrev: >>Didn't the uVax II implement some of the original VAX instructions >>with emulation? I always wondered what the VUP rating would have >>been were they not emulated. > >in order to reduce the architecture to a single (integer) chip, only 175 of >the 304 instructions (and 6 of 14 native data types) were implemented (through >microcode), while the rest were emulated - this subset included 98% of >instructions in a typical program. The optional FPU implemented 70 >instructions and 3 VAX data types, which was another 1.7% of VAX instructions. >All remaining VAX instructions were only used 0.2% of the time, and this >allowed MicroVAX designs to eventually exceed the speed of full VAX >implementations Aha! So, if I were doing numerical linear algebra in a uVaxII w/o the optional FPU, I could expect performance to be badly hit with respect to the 0.9 VUP rating. (FYI, I always tend to benchmark machines using float performance, because that's the kind of thing that I do for a living. I look at integer performance only as something that has an impact on sparse linear algebra blocks, as opposed to dense system methods). How do I know if my Vaxstation 2000 has the optional FPU? What is its model number? What about the Vaxstation 4000/60? Does it have a built-in FPU? carlos. -------------------------------------------------------------- Carlos E. Murillo-Sanchez carlos_murillo@nospammers.ieee.org From dogas at bellsouth.net Sun Nov 11 21:50:50 2001 From: dogas at bellsouth.net (Mike) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:59 2005 Subject: ISIS & CP/M for MDS 225 series3 References: <3.0.6.32.20011110110629.007a5ea0@mailhost.intellistar.net> Message-ID: <002901c16b2d$390e1890$3762d6d1@DOMAIN> From: Joe > I've had to dispose of all my classic computer stuff including the Intel > MDS. I also had an original DRI CPM disk that *should* have worked on the > Intel MDS but I never tried it. I gave the MDS, all the manuals and SW and > that disk to Mike Haas, who is also on this list. You may be able to get > copies from him. Besides the CPM disk I also had a complete set of ISIS II, > assembler, PL/M and, I think, Fortran for the MDS. I think there may have > been a copy of ISIS III in there too but I'm not sure. It's my Yup, I now have that system. Thanks Joe! I've got all the Isis II stuff you mention above but still cannot find any Isis III disks and would be glad to help anyone out with their system with any info/software I have ;) - Mike: dogas@bellsouth.net From geoffr at zipcon.net Sun Nov 11 22:06:22 2001 From: geoffr at zipcon.net (Geoff Reed) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:59 2005 Subject: Xenix ? In-Reply-To: <7A9BACCEF0171D4FB77019F5104CDD372258C0@jeffserver.tegjeff. com> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20011111200218.00a43250@mail.zipcon.net> At 05:06 PM 11/11/01 -0500, you wrote: > > > Remember, Xenix was originally a Microsoft product, they then sold it > off > > > to SCO (for a % ownership in SCO) > > > > > > > Actually Xenix was never a Microsoft branded product. It was Microsoft's > > but they only sold Xenix as OEM'd versions to vendors like SCO and lots > > of HW vendors who then added they modifications to support their specific > > products (like Apricot, whose machines were far from plain PCs). > >We may not all mean the same thing by "branded", but ISTR >seeing the banner "Microsoft XENIX" on that Radio Shack 68000 >machine whose model number I can never recall... Tandy Models 16 and 6000, it was a dual proc box, with both a Z-80 and a 68K processor. on seperate system boards. the 68K cboards were in a cardcage in the back, and IIRC the Z-80 wqas in the bottom of the machine. You could boot CP/M, Trs-Dos, CP/M-68K or Xenix on the beasties... (I used to own 2 of them) a local ISP (Eskimo north) got started originally on model 1's, then 3's (in the guise of a BBS) then he moved it up to a Model 16 running Xenix (still a bbs) then when the whole "internet" thing started to take off, he used the 16's he had as shell boxes with a couple of suns to do the talking to the internet...... He used to do a mod on the 16/6000 ramboards that involved running a couple of wires and changing out the PALS on them to allow 1 Meg per board instead fo the 256K they shipped with (256Kx1 chips instead of 64Kx1 chips) From geoffr at zipcon.net Sun Nov 11 22:08:01 2001 From: geoffr at zipcon.net (Geoff Reed) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:59 2005 Subject: Xenix ? In-Reply-To: <15343.941.244118.143665@phaduka.neurotica.com> References: <010901c16b01$e0a789a0$0b01a8c0@ValuedCustomer> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20011111200702.0289f050@mail.zipcon.net> At 06:03 PM 11/11/01 -0500, you wrote: > Ahh, eventually I'd like to get my hands on a 16. Someday. I fondly >remember when that machine came out. "Ooooh! A 68K!! At RADIO >SHACK!!!" :-) I've had my eyes out for a working one with the SCSI disk controller in it, a 6000 was my 2nd multiuser system... the first was an Altair 8800b running MP/M IIRC From geoffr at zipcon.net Sun Nov 11 22:09:55 2001 From: geoffr at zipcon.net (Geoff Reed) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:59 2005 Subject: Xenix ? In-Reply-To: References: <012501c16b0c$3c1e8fe0$0b01a8c0@ValuedCustomer> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20011111200858.030e5880@mail.zipcon.net> At 05:20 PM 11/11/01 -0800, you wrote: >Somehow, I am inclined to question if there was a Z-80 version of Xenix >and, if not, then there was none for the Model II. > > - don Tandy sold a Xenix kit for the Models 2 and 12, which included the cardcage and the 68K and ramboards that essentially upgraded your 2 or 12 to a 16 or 6000 respectively.... From jrice at texoma.net Sun Nov 11 22:08:52 2001 From: jrice at texoma.net (James L. Rice) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:59 2005 Subject: another small step References: <15341.55771.594377.139924@phaduka.neurotica.com> <3BEDE908.13E9019D@bellsouth.net> Message-ID: <3BEF4B54.704@texoma.net> Good to someone making progress, restoring some black hardware to a useful configuration. I enjoy my NeXT slab and cube. Still some of my favorite machines. A lot of sites do look funny on Omniweb. I guess it might be the html to rtf translation. Some things just don't translate very well. Frank's Caper package seems to work well and Samba is readily available if your network is Wintel based. I'm eagerly awaiting the arrival of my N4005 21" monitor to complete my Dimension cube. I just got a set of ink carts for the color printer and have almost unstopped all of the print heads. If you don't have your printer parts yet, give Randy at Turbo a shout. He takes Paypal and his wider-than-stock printer gear seems to be the best long term solution. I need to get a two drive SCSI cable from him as I have a second 2.1 gb drive to install in my cube and I need a printer repair kit for my spare laser. I've started buying spares before they disappear totally, such as floppy drives, spare mice and keyboards, monitors and power supplies. I plan on keeping my black hardware up and running for a long time! Jeff Hellige wrote: > Well, tonight I made another small step with my NeXT systems. I > have both my Cube and my slab at home now and was working on the slab > since I had gotten so much further with the Cube while it was in my > office. Tonight on the slab I got both DHCP and POP3 email retrieval > working while connected to my G3 using Surfdoubler. I forgot at first > that I needed to modify Popover in order to send mail, though I know > it works because I've already done it on the Cube. Web sites don't > look quite right when viewed using Omniweb, but hey it works! I also > have Caper running on both systems so they can be connected to > Appletalk networks. Now all I have to do is finally get around to > taking the NeXT laserprinter apart and replacing it's main feed roller > and extraction gear. > > Jeff From jrice at texoma.net Sun Nov 11 22:11:58 2001 From: jrice at texoma.net (James L. Rice) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:59 2005 Subject: yet another NeXT question References: <4.3.2.7.2.20011111173836.03c48780@cirithi> Message-ID: <3BEF4C0E.9090209@texoma.net> I've never used my OD. It never passed POST, so I have always assumed it was bad. I thought about buying a new one and there were 13 OD's for sale on ebay last week, but I'm looking for a turbo motherboard for my Cube. Since it would be useless when I get a 33mhz motherboard, why bother? Jeff Hellige wrote: > Does NeXTstep 3.X do something differently with the optical disks > than previous versions? A NeXT brand MO disk that I was able to read > a few days ago now shows up as uninitialized but a disk that I created > under NS 3.3 still reads fine. The first disk may have been created > under NS 2.X or below. Both disks are trying to be read on my '040 > Cube with both MO and floppy drives. > > Jeff From cube1 at home.com Sun Nov 11 22:20:37 2001 From: cube1 at home.com (Jay Jaeger) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:59 2005 Subject: H7140 PDP 11/24 Power Supply Advice In-Reply-To: References: <4.3.2.7.2.20011111160319.02014c80@cirithi> Message-ID: <4.3.2.7.2.20011111220100.03c90278@cirithi> Wow, thanks for your fast response. I won't be able to work on it much for a day or two, but this will definitely help. One thing I'll have to do is run and find an article or two on switching power supply organization. I'm sure I have some around. I have a rough idea, but if it isn't just the capacitor, I'll want a better idea of how these guys work. This is really helpful -- it is one thing to look at a schematic and think you have a fair idea, but another to get that confirmed from one who obviously knows what they are talking about. I really appreciate the help and guidance. At 11:52 PM 11/11/2001 +0000, you wrote: > > > > I have had a PDP-11/24 for some years, working just fine (last time I had > > it on was about last May). > > > > Yesterday it decided not to work. Looks like the H7140 supply. The +300V > >I've come across this PSU in the 11/44.... > >Good luck, it's by far the most complicated SMPSU you're likely to work >on. There are 3 independant chopper circuits in there. Yes, the bias >supply is also a switch-mode device (!). Yeah, I had noticed that. Ironic, a bit. I have an old HP disk drive I got a few years back. It had a completely blown out bias supply (as in charred). Yanked the whole thing and bought a little +24V sealed unit that I use now. >The chopper transistor for this supply is Q25 on the bias/interface >board (sheet 3 in the printset). The chopper transformer is T1 on the >H7140 motherboard. The chopper is driven by E15 (555) on the >bias/interface PCB (sheet 3 again), with regulation applied via Q15 and >Q26 (again bias/interface sheet 3). Yup, sheet 3 is where I have been focusing so far (which you could probably tell from what I had measured). > > on the voltage doubler is there, but the +13V in the Bias/Interface board > > reads about +7V. I suspect this is central to the problem. (The +12V > Bias > > is also reading about +7V). > >Yes, that is going to cause problems. From what I can see, the 12V line >(rectified output of the bias chopper transformer -- rectified by D6 on >the motherboard) is essentially unregulated. The regulation, such as it >is, comes from the winding linking 3-4 on the chopper transformer, which >also provides the +13V (on the 'hot' side of the PSU) via D36 >(bias/interface sheet 3). > >Now the fact that the +12V (on the secondary side of the PSU -- you have >realised the grounds are not common, right?) is present would seem to >indicate that the chopper is running. Just not producing the right voltages. Yes, I had noticed that. The +13V has as its ground the 300V Return. The +12V has chassis as ground, unless I missed something (If I did, then then the +7V measurement is wrong). (Measured against the 300V return, the +12V is some other obscene voltage -- around 150V if I remember -- I measured it just for grins and to make sure I was on the right track). >I would start by looking at the schematic on page 3 of the bias/interface >board prints. Check the electrolytics first -- for some reason I don't >much like the look of C16 (82uF), which is the smoothing capacitor for >the 13V line. Yeah, an electrolytic would be a good place to start -- I'll try looking at him first. In the collection, those are high on the list of dead things (along with lamps and vacuum sensors and bridge rectifiers killed by shorted or underformed electrolytics). > > Any words of advice? Does anyone have a technical description of the > > H7140? I have schematics (and can read them at the component level), but > > power supplies are hardly my strong point -- it would be useful to have > > some description of just how this animal goes thru a power up > >It appears, from a quick glance at the schematics, that the startup >voltage comes from the 150V midpoint on the voltage doubler via Q23 >(bias/interface sheet 3). This gets E15 oscillating. Yeah, there is a 10V Zener on the M/B (D2) from what I can see. That voltage is running at 9.2V -- I am guessing that that is probably OK, though I think I'll scope it (that is where my test lead is right now, anyway). It could always be a bad bridge on the +300V doubler, so it is worth a quick check with the scope. >The chopper >transformer then outputs the 13V line (which takes over from the startup >supply) and the 12V line to the rest of the PSU's electronics (the latter >being on the isolated 'secondary' side). Thanks -- I suspected as much, but without a book I wasn't sure. > > sequence. Plus, blind diagnosis will be slow -- there aren't any test > > points, and one needs to make sure the +300V from the doubler has been > > bled off before yanking cards to solder test tails at strategic points. It > >It's nasty. 380V or so on screw terminals at the top of the PSU. Lethal, >in fact!. Yeah, no kidding. The red label on the top of the supply got my attention, and 2 minutes with the schematic was enough to convince me to be verrrry careful. At least it's DC. >When I was debugging one of these (I have memory PSU problems in my >11/44), I connected a 10k high-wattage resistor across my voltmeter >probes. After pulling the mains plug I touched said probes onto the 380V >screw terminals to discharge the capacitors. Then I could start pulling >cards. Yeah -- I have been checking it with a voltmeter before I proceed each time to yank the bias card to put on a test point. Slow, but safe. I also kick off all the breakers AND unplug the machine. Last think I want is to accidentally close a breaker. =8^/ >But it's not my favourite supply to work on by any means... > >-tony For me, any switching supply is a challenge. Not one of the things they taught us about when I went to school originally as an EE. I'll keep folks posted on progress (which is likely to be slow -- as they say, work sure cuts into your free time. 8^) Jay Jaeger --- Jay R. Jaeger The Computer Collection cube1@home.com visit http://members.home.net/thecomputercollection From lgwalker at mts.net Sun Nov 11 22:35:25 2001 From: lgwalker at mts.net (Lawrence Walker) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:59 2005 Subject: Xenix ? In-Reply-To: References: <012501c16b0c$3c1e8fe0$0b01a8c0@ValuedCustomer> Message-ID: <3BEEFD2D.25817.1A3A5A2E@localhost> I have several copies of xenix that I received with my Model ll on 8" fdds, as well as 3 of the large 8Meg TRS HDDs which I have not explored other than ascertaining that it boots both TRSDos and CPM. According to Ward (?) the model ll needs the 68000 board to use it. I'll eventually catch up to all my projects. (sighhh) I also want to get "Pickles and Trout" for it eventually Lawrence > > > On Sun, 11 Nov 2001, Michael Nadeau wrote: > > > I've never used anything but TRSDOS on the Model II, so I can't speak to the > > relative usefulness. However, I believe that there were more Xenix > > implementations on the II/12/16/6000 line than on any other system and by a > > wide margin. Like I said, it was a popular option and well-supported by Tandy. > > The 2000 was quirky enough that a lot of software ported to it didn't behave > > as it was supposed to, and it never sold well enough for the software makers > > to care much about fixing the problems. Tandy had a hard time convincing > > software developers to support the 2000, and was rumored to have paid Lotus > > $250,000 to port 1-2-3. My guess is that Microsoft made less than a > > whole-hearted effort to port Xenix as cleanly as it could have. > > > > --Mike > > > > Michael Nadeau > > Editorial Services > > 603-893-2379 > > Somehow, I am inclined to question if there was a Z-80 version of Xenix > and, if not, then there was none for the Model II. > > - don > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: "Jeff Hellige" > > To: > > Sent: Sunday, November 11, 2001 6:15 PM > > Subject: Re: Xenix ? > > > > > > > >Xenix was also a popular option for the TRS-80 Model II/12/16/6000 > > series. > > > > > > I couldn't remember which of the above it was available for, > > > so I didn't name a specific model. I've never used it on any of the > > > above machines myself. Was it any more usable than the version on > > > the Model 2000? > > > > > > Jeff > > > -- > > > Home of the TRS-80 Model 2000 FAQ File > > > http://www.cchaven.com > > > http://www.geocities.com/siliconvalley/lakes/6757 > > > > > > > > > > > Reply to: lgwalker@mts.net From lgwalker at mts.net Sun Nov 11 22:35:25 2001 From: lgwalker at mts.net (Lawrence Walker) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:59 2005 Subject: Zenith Data Systems Z-386 SX/20 Free in NJ In-Reply-To: <01Nov11.211910est.119210@gateway.mediacen.navy.mil> References: Message-ID: <3BEEFD2D.16545.1A3A59F2@localhost> was also the monitor program on my ZDS m170(?) luggable. I've also heard that people could use a hardcard with them. Anyone know any particulars ? > >Why can't I figure out how to change the settings? I don't know, it > >doesn't seem to respond to "standard" key combos to get into a setup > >menu, so I am figuring it doesn't have one. > > Have you tried ? That's what the key combo > to get into the ROM-based setup of the Zenith Z-248's used to be. > > >Why can't I use it unless it has a 3.5" drive? Because the only place a > >386 is of any use to me right now, is to work as an interviewing station > >for a particular software package. > > I would think a 386 based machine would be more easily > adaptable to the 3.5" drives than the old Z-248's were. I know > people that got them working, but ours never worked very well as the > BIOS didn't directly support them until we replaced the CPU board > with an aftermarket 386SX board. > > Jeff > -- > Home of the TRS-80 Model 2000 FAQ File > http://www.cchaven.com > http://www.geocities.com/siliconvalley/lakes/6757 Lawrence Reply to: lgwalker@mts.net From jss at subatomix.com Sun Nov 11 22:35:11 2001 From: jss at subatomix.com (Jeffrey S. Sharp) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:59 2005 Subject: IRC channel? Message-ID: <20011111223354.J3855-100000@lepton.subatomix.com> Is there an IRC channel frequented by retrocomputing types? -- Jeffrey S. Sharp jss@subatomix.com From jhellige at earthlink.net Sun Nov 11 22:36:14 2001 From: jhellige at earthlink.net (Jeff Hellige) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:11:00 2005 Subject: yet another NeXT question In-Reply-To: <3BEF4C0E.9090209@texoma.net> References: <4.3.2.7.2.20011111173836.03c48780@cirithi> <3BEF4C0E.9090209@texoma.net> Message-ID: >I've never used my OD. It never passed POST, so I have always >assumed it was bad. I thought about buying a new one and there >were 13 OD's for sale on ebay last week, but I'm looking for a turbo >motherboard for my Cube. Since it would be useless when I get a >33mhz motherboard, why bother? That's true...you wouldn't be able to use it even if you did have one. I've got an '030 Cube upgraded to an '040 non-turbo, with both internal floppy and OD. I also have a second '040 board. I just thought it odd that it was having trouble with the one disk that it did access fine before while still being able to access the disk that was created with that drive and OS combo. Jeff -- Home of the TRS-80 Model 2000 FAQ File http://www.cchaven.com http://www.geocities.com/siliconvalley/lakes/6757 From jhellige at earthlink.net Sun Nov 11 22:43:06 2001 From: jhellige at earthlink.net (Jeff Hellige) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:11:00 2005 Subject: another small step In-Reply-To: <3BEF4B54.704@texoma.net> References: <15341.55771.594377.139924@phaduka.neurotica.com> <3BEDE908.13E9019D@bellsouth.net> <3BEF4B54.704@texoma.net> Message-ID: >Good to someone making progress, restoring some black hardware to a >useful configuration. I enjoy my NeXT slab and cube. Still some of >my favorite machines. A lot of sites do look funny on Omniweb. I >guess it might be the html to rtf translation. Some things just >don't translate very well. Frank's Caper package seems to work well >and Samba is readily available if your network is Wintel based. >I'm eagerly awaiting the arrival of my N4005 21" monitor to complete >my Dimension cube. I just got a set of ink carts for the color >printer and have almost unstopped all of the print heads. If you >don't have your printer parts yet, give Randy at Turbo a shout. He >takes Paypal and his wider-than-stock printer gear seems to be the >best long term solution. I need to get a two drive SCSI cable from >him as I have a second 2.1 gb drive to install in my cube and I need >a printer repair kit for my spare laser. I've started buying spares >before they disappear totally, such as floppy drives, spare mice and >keyboards, monitors and power supplies. I plan on keeping my black >hardware up and running for a long time! I've got a few spares, mainly an extra keyboard, mouse, Cube '040 cpu board, and somewhat dim N4000A monitor. I've already gotten the feed roller and extraction gear for my laser as well, just haven't ventured into taking it apart to install them yet. Omniweb looks much better since I got the 2.7b version from Peak. I had initially tried the 1.0 version that was on the NeXTware CD. It looks like it's going through at least two levels of translation between HTML and RTF, with another in between. I use Caper quite a bit for moving stuff back and forth between my Mac's and the NeXT systems. The thing giving me fits at the moment is Sendmail....I had it working with our Exchange server using the Cube but now that I've gotten the slab on the 'net, using DHCP and my Mac as a gateway, it won't send mail to Earthlink's email server even though Popover retrieves it just fine. Jeff -- Home of the TRS-80 Model 2000 FAQ File http://www.cchaven.com http://www.geocities.com/siliconvalley/lakes/6757 From lgwalker at mts.net Sun Nov 11 22:45:32 2001 From: lgwalker at mts.net (Lawrence Walker) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:11:00 2005 Subject: Xenix ? In-Reply-To: <20011112034853.CHGZ9778.femail9.sdc1.sfba.home.com@BENCHBOX> References: Message-ID: <3BEEFF8C.21689.1A439E4E@localhost> What Atari used ISA ? TTs or Megas ? Certainly not the ST. Lawrence > As far as open architecture, ISA was very well documented and noone needed > to pay IBM to use the buss. MCA was a different story. The PC wasn't an > open architecture, but the effects were something of the same. Heck there > are ISA slots on Amigas, Ataris, etc..... > > Regards, > > Jeff > > In , on > 11/11/01 > at 01:32 PM, "Francis. Javier Mesa" said: > > >Speaking of M$, I was reading the other day a keynote speech by BillyBoy > >in which he claimed that DOS got such a widespread use because they > >contributed with an open architecture, the PC. As far as I know the PC > >was not open at all (i.e. the BIOS, etc), and most importantly the PC was > >not their architecture! The key components of what made a PC a PCE were > >supposed to be propietary, and most of the early clones that used DOS had > >copied BIOSs which were theoretically illegal. So basically BillyBoy was > >admiting that his empire was based on the encouragement of piracy by > >their OEM clients of IBM's IP. Interesting, eh? > > -- > ----------------------------------------------------------- > Jeffrey S. Worley > Asheville, NC USA > 828-6984887 > UberTechnoid@Home.com > ----------------------------------------------------------- > Reply to: lgwalker@mts.net From jhellige at earthlink.net Sun Nov 11 22:45:31 2001 From: jhellige at earthlink.net (Jeff Hellige) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:11:00 2005 Subject: Xenix ? In-Reply-To: <20011112034257.NLTR25027.femail19.sdc1.sfba.home.com@BENCHBOX> References: <20011112034257.NLTR25027.femail19.sdc1.sfba.home.com@BENCHBOX> Message-ID: >Without going too far out on a limb, Xenix is a 16bit xnix clone from MS. >Should run fine on your 286 with 4mb. I don't really know what the ram >requirements are, but it shouldn't be dramatic in the least. The Model 2000's version would have been running on an 8mhz 80186 with a max of 768k of RAM. It'd be interesting to know if it supported the multi-serial port card, which could give you up to a total of nine serial ports on that machine. Jeff -- Home of the TRS-80 Model 2000 FAQ File http://www.cchaven.com http://www.geocities.com/siliconvalley/lakes/6757 From pdp11 at bellsouth.net Sun Nov 11 22:52:02 2001 From: pdp11 at bellsouth.net (Doug Carman) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:11:00 2005 Subject: 100 Mb ARCnet? References: Message-ID: <3BEF5572.CE9A74D@bellsouth.net> "r. 'bear' stricklin" wrote: > > On 12 Nov 2001, Iggy Drougge wrote: > > > Is it a 100 Mb ARCnet card? 100 Mb ARCnet? > > The ThomasConrad name implies that is the case, but 100 Mb ARCnet? > > Nope. > > It's a topology which is proprietary to Thomas-Conrad, called "TCNS". It > _is_ 100 mbit though. > Yes, I used to have a customer that had their plant wired with fiber to support it. It seemed to work well at the time. -- Doug Carman pdp11@bellsouth.net From dan at ekoan.com Sun Nov 11 22:57:36 2001 From: dan at ekoan.com (Dan Veeneman) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:11:00 2005 Subject: Apple Floppy Drives (was: More Apple Pimpers) Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20011111234020.02d0a910@www.rdss.com> The last thing I want to do is get involved in the Sellam/Dick spat, and I'm certainly not pimping for Apple, but... On Sat, 10 Nov 2001 at 22:42:13 -0700 Richard Erlacher wrote: > I didn't use an Apple with or without an 8" disk subsystem, but no one I know > who did useful work on an Apple][ back in '79-'85, after which the Apple][ was > pretty irrelevant, relied on the 5-1.4"diskettes. During that time period I wrote software for Apples that were used as satellite video encryption controllers. We had a custom interface card in one of the Apple slots that drove the encryptor, but we certainly relied on the standard 5 1/4" disk drives. The machines would typically be installed in remote uplink sheds, everywhere from San Diego to northern Canada, and to my knowledge we had no failures due to the disk drive. None of the drives ever received any maintenance, preventative or otherwise. And yes, I enjoyed 6502 programming very much. To tie yet another thread into this, I wrote code to work with the Hayes Micromodem II that allowed the network operator to transfer new authorization information to the Apple. (We later upgraded to the Hayes Smartmodem 1200.) These setups also used a Thunderclock card for real-time clock information. I still have a Micromodem II but I can't seem to find a Thunderclock card. Around that same time I bought a video digitizer from Microworkz -- it was a card that plugged into the Apple and accepted baseband video input. I remember writing machine code to sample the video and print out the greyscale image on an HP Thinkjet printer. Cool stuff for the early 80's. Cheers, Dan http://www.decodesystems.com/wanted.html From gunther at aurora.regenstrief.org Sun Nov 11 23:28:10 2001 From: gunther at aurora.regenstrief.org (Gunther Schadow) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:11:00 2005 Subject: RA81 problems, someone with a service manual can help? References: <3BEF3710.7040502@aurora.regenstrief.org> Message-ID: <3BEF5DEA.9050508@aurora.regenstrief.org> O.K. I'm sure my problems are simply due to the heads being locked as they should. I'm confident I'll find the unlock mechanism once I opened up the hood, but I don't know how I open up the hood. I know how to get to the controll boards with the serial console connector, that's just the small cover with this one quarter-turn hex-key lock. But supposedly you can open the larger cover that hinges farther back. Where is that hood lock mechanism? thanks, -Gunther -- Gunther Schadow, M.D., Ph.D. gschadow@regenstrief.org Medical Information Scientist Regenstrief Institute for Health Care Adjunct Assistant Professor Indiana University School of Medicine tel:1(317)630-7960 http://aurora.regenstrief.org From mythtech at Mac.com Sun Nov 11 23:38:04 2001 From: mythtech at Mac.com (Chris) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:11:00 2005 Subject: Zenith Data Systems Z-386 SX/20 Free in NJ Message-ID: <200111120538.XAA51724@opal.tseinc.com> > Have you tried ? That's what the key combo >to get into the ROM-based setup of the Zenith Z-248's used to be. As it turns out, that key combo was pointed out to me the other day, and yes, it does work. It drops you into some kind of ROM debugger, where one of the features is a setup utility. So now the Zenith has been saved from the scrap heap (as there were no takers on it), and has been set to use the 3.5" 1.44 drive (and the 360k 5.25 was upped to a 1.2 5.25, not that I needed it, but I didn't have a face plate that fit nicely in the hole, so I just used one of my many spare 5.25 drives). It is now happily collecting dust on my shelf of "good to use" computers waiting for an interviewing job to call on it. -chris From bqt at update.uu.se Mon Nov 12 00:53:03 2001 From: bqt at update.uu.se (Johnny Billquist) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:11:00 2005 Subject: RA81 problems, someone with a service manual can help? In-Reply-To: <3BEF3710.7040502@aurora.regenstrief.org> Message-ID: On Sun, 11 Nov 2001, Gunther Schadow wrote: > > > 50 Ensure that positioner motor lock is in the unlock > > position. If OK, then replace servo module, > > microprocessor module > > So, sounds like there is once chance for me: to find this > "positioner motor lock" and move it into the unlock position. > However, I have no idea how to do that? It sounds reasonable > that this thing may be locked for transport, I sure hope > so, because otherwise all my moving and installing this > thing would have been in vain. > > any help with this is appreciated. Not that I depend on the > RA81 for operation, but I've got it and I believe in having > a VAX collection with 100% functional stuff. Open the RA81 drive. Looking at the HDA, you will se a plastic lever which can be turned. One position is marked locked, the other position is marked unlocked.... Johnny Johnny Billquist || "I'm on a bus || on a psychedelic trip email: bqt@update.uu.se || Reading murder books pdp is alive! || tryin' to stay hip" - B. Idol From bqt at update.uu.se Mon Nov 12 00:55:07 2001 From: bqt at update.uu.se (Johnny Billquist) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:11:00 2005 Subject: RA81 problems, someone with a service manual can help? In-Reply-To: <3BEF5DEA.9050508@aurora.regenstrief.org> Message-ID: On Mon, 12 Nov 2001, Gunther Schadow wrote: > O.K. I'm sure my problems are simply due to the heads being > locked as they should. I'm confident I'll find the unlock > mechanism once I opened up the hood, but I don't know how > I open up the hood. I know how to get to the controll boards > with the serial console connector, that's just the small > cover with this one quarter-turn hex-key lock. But supposedly > you can open the larger cover that hinges farther back. > Where is that hood lock mechanism? Look at the fron of the drive. At the bottom edge, which you have the slot. You will see either a metal plate that can be pushed, or one or two hex bolts that you can turn with the proper tool, and then they pop out slightly. Then you lift the whole cover. Johnny Johnny Billquist || "I'm on a bus || on a psychedelic trip email: bqt@update.uu.se || Reading murder books pdp is alive! || tryin' to stay hip" - B. Idol From jss at subatomix.com Mon Nov 12 01:45:10 2001 From: jss at subatomix.com (Jeffrey S. Sharp) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:11:00 2005 Subject: Lifting stuff into racks Message-ID: <20011112014045.K3855-100000@lepton.subatomix.com> What kind of equipment/strategy do we use to lift heavy equipment into place in a rack so that it can be fastened to the rack? Is there some jack or hydraulic lift that can be used? Please tell me that the best method doesn't begin with "create a list of muscular friends". -- Jeffrey S. Sharp jss@subatomix.com From Huw.Davies at kerberos.davies.net.au Mon Nov 12 02:04:25 2001 From: Huw.Davies at kerberos.davies.net.au (Huw Davies) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:11:00 2005 Subject: Cromemco landmarks In-Reply-To: <200111081431.JAA16560@stage21.ureach.com> Message-ID: <4.3.2.7.2.20011112190211.02406b98@kerberos.davies.net.au> At 09:31 AM 8/11/2001 -0500, Bill Pechter wrote: >The 11/780 may have been in decline by 1987... but out of >widespread use isn't true. > >A large number of 11/780's were still being used in commercial >locations (although many had been upgraded to 11/780-5's -- non >FCC'd 11/785's)... but many were still in commercial use after >the scientific number cruncher types moved from the 11/780 to >newer faster and smaller boxes or to bigger boxes like the 8650. I was still managing (and maintaining) 11/780s and 11/785s in the early '90s. Indeed we built the first Australian customer mixed architecture VMScluster using an 11/785 and a 3000-300 in 1992 (if I recall the date correctly). I also recall our Digital salesperson remarking that she wouldn't have sold us the 3000 if she'd known what I planned to do with it! Huw Davies | e-mail: Huw.Davies@kerberos.davies.net.au | "If God had wanted soccer played in the | air, the sky would be painted green" From jarkko.teppo at er-grp.com Mon Nov 12 02:32:36 2001 From: jarkko.teppo at er-grp.com (Jarkko Teppo) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:11:00 2005 Subject: Lifting stuff into racks In-Reply-To: <20011112014045.K3855-100000@lepton.subatomix.com> References: <20011112014045.K3855-100000@lepton.subatomix.com> Message-ID: <63951.62.148.198.97.1005553956.squirrel@mail.er-grp.com> > What kind of equipment/strategy do we use to lift heavy equipment into > place in a rack so that it can be fastened to the rack? Is there some > jack or hydraulic lift that can be used? Case in point: 1. Two bottles of cheap wine (consume before lifting). 2. A few tables and chairs. 3. Drink the wine 4. Pretend you're muscular and strong, pound chest like tarzan 5. Bolt the slides on first 6. Move the tables and chairs near the rack, pull out the slides 7. Lift the (in this case VAX 8350) machine on the table, chairs or on a big pile of manuals. 8. Take your time when bolting the slides to the computer, see #3. 9. For the really adventurous you can now get some beer and continue by reconfiguring multinet. > > Please tell me that the best method doesn't begin with "create a list > of muscular friends". > I've been thinking of getting a rack winch like the one demonstrated in the HP 7935 manual. Until that I'll continue breaking my back. Beats going to the gym. -- jht From optimus at canit.se Sun Nov 11 22:48:17 2001 From: optimus at canit.se (Iggy Drougge) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:11:00 2005 Subject: 100 Mb ARCnet? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <708.716T850T3484763optimus@canit.se> r. 'bear' stricklin skrev: >On 12 Nov 2001, Iggy Drougge wrote: >> Is it a 100 Mb ARCnet card? 100 Mb ARCnet? >> The ThomasConrad name implies that is the case, but 100 Mb ARCnet? >Nope. >It's a topology which is proprietary to Thomas-Conrad, called "TCNS". It >_is_ 100 mbit though. I should have done my homework before posting to the list. However, it turns out that while it's proprietary, it is a variation of ARCnet. Hmm, 100 Mb on a coax cable with token-passing, now there's a pretty sight. My ideal network, as long as they've sorted out the deal with station addresses. -- En ligne avec Thor 2.6a. Menyn ?r inte lika sexig som telnet, det ?r h?rt men sant. Petri Oksanen #38 p? SUGA BBS From optimus at canit.se Sun Nov 11 22:51:46 2001 From: optimus at canit.se (Iggy Drougge) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:11:00 2005 Subject: offered: 8-port AUI Fanout In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <300.716T2300T3515605optimus@canit.se> r. 'bear' stricklin skrev: >I've got an ISOLAN 8-port Ethernet AUI Fanout available for the taking by >anybody more interested in obsolete network topologies than I. What is it? Some kind of DELNI(?)-like AUI repeater? -- En ligne avec Thor 2.6a. A conservative is a worshipper of dead radicals. From Antonio.Carlini at riverstonenet.com Mon Nov 12 02:48:58 2001 From: Antonio.Carlini at riverstonenet.com (Carlini, Antonio) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:11:00 2005 Subject: RA81 problems, someone with a service manual can help? Message-ID: <3820E2042B6ED5118DC200D0B78EDC4706620E@exc-reo1> > -----Original Message----- > From: Gunther Schadow [mailto:gunther@aurora.regenstrief.org] > > O.K. I'm sure my problems are simply due to the heads being > locked as they should. I'm confident I'll find the unlock > Where is that hood lock mechanism? There is a scan of an RA81 pocket maintenance guide at http://208.190.133.201/decimages/moremanuals.htm . I don't recall exactly how much it covers, and I'm not able to check the original right now, but it might help. Antonio arcarlini@iee.org From optimus at canit.se Mon Nov 12 02:43:36 2001 From: optimus at canit.se (Iggy Drougge) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:11:00 2005 Subject: New acquisitions: Suns, room In-Reply-To: <200111112021.MAA07970@stockholm.ptloma.edu> Message-ID: <591.716T1800T5835245optimus@canit.se> Cameron Kaiser skrev: >> Well, I won't totally eliminate the possibility, but I think I'm going to >> have somewhat different criteria from now on. So... does anyone here know >> any single, female, pretty, smart computer geeks/nerds, someone that would >> think of "writing a compiler" as spending time together? >Funny, my checklist reads remarkably similar. It would be a wonderful world if more computer geeks were homosexual. -- En ligne avec Thor 2.6a. G? med i SUGA, Swedish Usergroup of Amiga! WWW: http://swedish.usergroup.amiga.tm/ BBS: 08-6582572, telnet://sua.ath.cx:42512 From optimus at canit.se Mon Nov 12 03:17:39 2001 From: optimus at canit.se (Iggy Drougge) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:11:00 2005 Subject: VAX (Was: Cromemco landmarks) In-Reply-To: <3.0.2.32.20011111223017.00f5db14@obregon.multi.net.co> Message-ID: <1134.716T1950T6175519optimus@canit.se> Carlos Murillo skrev: >>microcode), while the rest were emulated - this subset included 98% of >>instructions in a typical program. The optional FPU implemented 70 >>instructions and 3 VAX data types, which was another 1.7% of VAX >Aha! So, if I were doing numerical linear algebra in a uVaxII w/o the >optional FPU, I could expect performance to be badly hit with respect to the >0.9 VUP rating. You mean you actually use your FPU? I thought that was just a dongle for running NetBSD on 68k Macs. ;-) >How do I know if my Vaxstation 2000 has the optional FPU? What is >its model number? Conversely, NetBSD's notes on system models says this: "In fact, at the time the 78032 was the first 32-bit microprocessor with both memory management and floating point on a single chip. It showed up in many system including the MicroVAX II and the VAX 8200." -- En ligne avec Thor 2.6a. Among the best Swedish achievements are those that closely combine social and architectural developments, such as the carefully planned new towns built in recent years outside Stockholm: V?llingby and Farsta. J.M. Richards, Modern Architecture From optimus at canit.se Mon Nov 12 03:20:56 2001 From: optimus at canit.se (Iggy Drougge) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:11:00 2005 Subject: Xenix ? In-Reply-To: <3BEEFF8C.21689.1A439E4E@localhost> Message-ID: <360.716T2800T6206345optimus@canit.se> Lawrence Walker skrev: > What Atari used ISA ? TTs or Megas ? Certainly not the ST. Save for ST clones and Atari-brand PCs, none. The Hades has got some ISA slots, though they're a limited implementation, mainly for adding an ISA card with an ST cartridge port, I think. The Medusa may have had one, too, and possibly the Milan. -- En ligne avec Thor 2.6a. From Antonio.Carlini at riverstonenet.com Mon Nov 12 03:46:29 2001 From: Antonio.Carlini at riverstonenet.com (Carlini, Antonio) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:11:00 2005 Subject: VAX (Was: Cromemco landmarks) Message-ID: <3820E2042B6ED5118DC200D0B78EDC4706620F@exc-reo1> Carlos Murillo wrote: > Aha! So, if I were doing numerical linear algebra in a uVaxII > w/o the optional > FPU, I could expect performance to be badly hit with respect > to the 0.9 VUP > rating. Yes. But although there were part numbers produced for MicroVAX II CPU modules *without* the FPU, I don't think *any* were ever shipped. > How do I know if my Vaxstation 2000 has the optional FPU? What is > its model number? The UV2K tech manual is at http://208.190.133.201/decimages/moremanuals.htm but I'm pretty sure that all 2K systems shipped with an FPU. > What about the Vaxstation 4000/60? Does it have a built-in FPU? Again it's a separate chip (IIRC) but neyond the MicroVAX II era, everything shipped with an FPU. I cannot think of any exceptions. Antonio arcarlini@iee.org From dmabry at mich.com Mon Nov 12 05:08:04 2001 From: dmabry at mich.com (Dave Mabry) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:11:00 2005 Subject: ISIS & CP/M for MDS 225 series3 References: <3.0.6.32.20011110110629.007a5ea0@mailhost.intellistar.net> <002901c16b2d$390e1890$3762d6d1@DOMAIN> Message-ID: <3BEFAD94.F0E2E798@mich.com> I have resurected my Series II in order to copy some diskettes and I should have ISIS-III disks. It really is only one program. RUN. It starts up an 8086 environment assuming you have the RPB installed and working. If you need a copy, let me know. I'm looking to get a spare set of SBC-202 diskette controller boards if anyone has one. Mike wrote: > > From: Joe > > > I've had to dispose of all my classic computer stuff including the > Intel > > MDS. I also had an original DRI CPM disk that *should* have worked on the > > Intel MDS but I never tried it. I gave the MDS, all the manuals and SW and > > that disk to Mike Haas, who is also on this list. You may be able to get > > copies from him. Besides the CPM disk I also had a complete set of ISIS > II, > > assembler, PL/M and, I think, Fortran for the MDS. I think there may have > > been a copy of ISIS III in there too but I'm not sure. It's my > > Yup, I now have that system. Thanks Joe! I've got all the Isis II stuff > you mention above but still cannot find any Isis III disks and would be glad > to help anyone out with their system with any info/software I have > > ;) > - Mike: dogas@bellsouth.net -- Dave Mabry dmabry@mich.com Dossin Museum Underwater Research Team NACD #2093 From mikeford at socal.rr.com Mon Nov 12 04:47:18 2001 From: mikeford at socal.rr.com (Mike Ford) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:11:00 2005 Subject: Lifting stuff into racks In-Reply-To: <20011112014045.K3855-100000@lepton.subatomix.com> Message-ID: >What kind of equipment/strategy do we use to lift heavy equipment into >place in a rack so that it can be fastened to the rack? Is there some >jack or hydraulic lift that can be used? Put three mounting screws in your mouth and hold the forth between your lips ready to start the screw into the rack. Throwing caution to the wind take a deep breath, grab the item and waddle toward the rack... Make sure your cell phone is within reach, but not so close that it will be crushed in the accident. OK, serious answers Considering all of my past methods in the cold light of logic minus the passion of the moment, apparently I know of no sane technique. I have a vague notion of a rolling cart, and putting a couple screws in very loosely so one side could be slipped under them, but thats about it. From dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com Mon Nov 12 06:48:56 2001 From: dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com (Douglas Quebbeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:11:00 2005 Subject: busses Message-ID: <7A9BACCEF0171D4FB77019F5104CDD372258C1@jeffserver.tegjeff.com> > > I wonder if he buys MULTIBUS, UNIBUS, OMNIBUS, VMEBUS, ISABUS, EISABUS, > > or PCI busses? > > Or NuBus, S-100 bus, SS-50 bus, Benton Harbor bus, Versabus, or Pet bus? STD bus (or is that the same as SS-50)? -dq From dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com Mon Nov 12 06:51:48 2001 From: dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com (Douglas Quebbeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:11:00 2005 Subject: 100 Mb ARCnet? Message-ID: <7A9BACCEF0171D4FB77019F5104CDD372258C2@jeffserver.tegjeff.com> > I found this link on USENET: > http://cgi.ebay.de/aw-cgi/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=1294262119 > > Is it a 100 Mb ARCnet card? 100 Mb ARCnet? > The ThomasConrad name implies that is the case, but 100 Mb ARCnet? I thought TC also made Ethernet cards, so I wouldn't have made that assumption. But yes, this does appear to be a 100Mbps Arcnet card, they call it TCNS: http://www.textfiles.com/computers/PRESSRELEASE/tconrad.txt Regards, -dq From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Mon Nov 12 07:20:40 2001 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (Allison) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:11:00 2005 Subject: VAX (Was: Cromemco landmarks) Message-ID: <000c01c16b7c$d56705e0$6b7b7b7b@ajp> Carlos, Both have the FPU. It was optional only in the sense that it was not required for a minimal cpu. Allison -----Original Message----- From: Carlos Murillo To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org Date: Sunday, November 11, 2001 11:16 PM Subject: Re: VAX (Was: Cromemco landmarks) >At 03:02 AM 11/12/01 +0100, Iggy wrote: >>Carlos Murillo skrev: >>>Didn't the uVax II implement some of the original VAX instructions >>>with emulation? I always wondered what the VUP rating would have >>>been were they not emulated. >> >>in order to reduce the architecture to a single (integer) chip, only 175 of >>the 304 instructions (and 6 of 14 native data types) were implemented >(through >>microcode), while the rest were emulated - this subset included 98% of >>instructions in a typical program. The optional FPU implemented 70 >>instructions and 3 VAX data types, which was another 1.7% of VAX >instructions. >>All remaining VAX instructions were only used 0.2% of the time, and this >>allowed MicroVAX designs to eventually exceed the speed of full VAX >>implementations > >Aha! So, if I were doing numerical linear algebra in a uVaxII w/o the optional >FPU, I could expect performance to be badly hit with respect to the 0.9 VUP >rating. > >(FYI, I always tend to benchmark machines using float performance, >because that's the kind of thing that I do for a living. I look at integer >performance only as something that has an impact on sparse linear algebra >blocks, as opposed to dense system methods). > >How do I know if my Vaxstation 2000 has the optional FPU? What is >its model number? > >What about the Vaxstation 4000/60? Does it have a built-in FPU? > >carlos. > >-------------------------------------------------------------- >Carlos E. Murillo-Sanchez carlos_murillo@nospammers.ieee.org > > From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Mon Nov 12 07:21:27 2001 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (Allison) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:11:00 2005 Subject: busses Message-ID: <001701c16b7c$f1323240$6b7b7b7b@ajp> STD was a z80 bus and SS50 was 6800 based/biased. Allison -----Original Message----- From: Douglas Quebbeman To: 'classiccmp@classiccmp.org' Date: Monday, November 12, 2001 8:13 AM Subject: RE: busses > >> > I wonder if he buys MULTIBUS, UNIBUS, OMNIBUS, VMEBUS, ISABUS, EISABUS, >> > or PCI busses? >> >> Or NuBus, S-100 bus, SS-50 bus, Benton Harbor bus, Versabus, or Pet bus? > >STD bus (or is that the same as SS-50)? > >-dq > From Arno_1983 at gmx.de Mon Nov 12 07:23:49 2001 From: Arno_1983 at gmx.de (Arno Kletzander) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:11:00 2005 Subject: Sun / CalComp Printer networking problems Message-ID: <9464.1005571429@www21.gmx.net> On Nov 7, 22:54 GMT, Pete Turnbull wrote: >> at first: Is it okay to continue our mailing this way (directly mailing the >> messages, only CCing to Classiccmp.org? It's because I'm on the Digest and it >> has been arriving at about 4 P.M. local time the last few days, which is too >> late for me to stay in school and pick it up the same day (alas, don't have >> Internet at home yet). > >Yes, that's OK. I don;t know if you'll necessarily get a faster response, >but it's worth a try :-) Yes, it was, as I was able to pick up your direct message on Friday. The Digest with it arrived during the weekend, so I wouldn't have got it 'til this morning. >> And even worse...the DATA LED does no longer blink when there's traffic on >> the Ethernet... > >Oh dear, a bad sign, I fear. So what!? Hope to get a functional one somewhere? Try to find & repair the fault at component level? Arno Kletzander Arno_1983@gmx.de -- GMX - Die Kommunikationsplattform im Internet. http://www.gmx.net From foxvideo at wincom.net Mon Nov 12 07:34:14 2001 From: foxvideo at wincom.net (Charles E. Fox) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:11:00 2005 Subject: Lifting stuff into racks In-Reply-To: <20011112014045.K3855-100000@lepton.subatomix.com> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20011112082945.00a6ac80@mail.wincom.net> At 01:45 AM 12/11/2001 -0600, you wrote: >What kind of equipment/strategy do we use to lift heavy equipment into >place in a rack so that it can be fastened to the rack? Is there some >jack or hydraulic lift that can be used? > >Please tell me that the best method doesn't begin with "create a list of >muscular friends". > >-- >Jeffrey S. Sharp >jss@subatomix.com The technique I have used with audio recorders, ( probably not as heavy as computer equipment,) is to lay the rack on its back, install the equipment, round up muscular friends and stand the rack up. Cheers Charlie Fox Chas E. Fox Video Productions 793 Argyle Rd. Windsor ON N8Y 3J8 foxvideo@wincom.net Check out: Camcorder Kindergarten at http://chasfoxvideo.com From RCini at congressfinancial.com Mon Nov 12 08:01:40 2001 From: RCini at congressfinancial.com (Cini, Richard) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:11:00 2005 Subject: Adventure for 8080 Message-ID: <497A9E0467D2D2119B760090271EB8E5879F38@MAIL10> Jay: If you can come up with a text file or a hard-copy printout, that's more than I have at this point. I'm hoping to get CP/M working after I get the integrated debugger working. Thanks. Rich ========================== Richard A. Cini, Jr. Congress Financial Corporation 1133 Avenue of the Americas 30th Floor New York, NY 10036 (212) 545-4402 (212) 840-6259 (facsimile) -----Original Message----- From: Jay Jaeger [mailto:cube1@home.com] Sent: Sunday, November 11, 2001 6:40 PM To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org Subject: Re: Adventure for 8080 Back in the '70s, I did a port of Adventure using BDS C. But it needed CP/M. I don't know if I have a machine readable copy, but I suspect there is one floating around somewhere. Jay Jaeger At 10:50 AM 9/26/2001 -0400, you wrote: >Hello, all: > > I want to do something fun with the Altair Emulator. Does anyone >have a binary for Adventure? I don't yet have the ability to complie >programs in the emulator (because of problems booting CP/M), so I could use >a memory image. > > If someone has one, please contact me off line. Thanks. > >Rich > >========================== >Richard A. Cini, Jr. >Congress Financial Corporation >1133 Avenue of the Americas >30th Floor >New York, NY 10036 >(212) 545-4402 >(212) 840-6259 (facsimile) --- Jay R. Jaeger The Computer Collection cube1@home.com visit http://members.home.net/thecomputercollection From bdwheele at indiana.edu Mon Nov 12 08:36:42 2001 From: bdwheele at indiana.edu (Brian Wheeler) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:11:00 2005 Subject: RA81 problems, someone with a service manual can help? In-Reply-To: <3BEF5DEA.9050508@aurora.regenstrief.org> References: <3BEF3710.7040502@aurora.regenstrief.org> <3BEF5DEA.9050508@aurora.regenstrief.org> Message-ID: <1005575802.17608.0.camel@wombat.educ.indiana.edu> On Mon, 2001-11-12 at 00:28, Gunther Schadow wrote: > O.K. I'm sure my problems are simply due to the heads being > locked as they should. I'm confident I'll find the unlock > mechanism once I opened up the hood, but I don't know how > I open up the hood. I know how to get to the controll boards > with the serial console connector, that's just the small > cover with this one quarter-turn hex-key lock. But supposedly > you can open the larger cover that hinges farther back. > Where is that hood lock mechanism? > I know on the RA82 there's a hex-key lock on the front cover, on each side. You can see them through the vent grooves. I think the RA81 is similar. Brian > thanks, > -Gunther > > > > > -- > Gunther Schadow, M.D., Ph.D. gschadow@regenstrief.org > Medical Information Scientist Regenstrief Institute for Health Care > Adjunct Assistant Professor Indiana University School of Medicine > tel:1(317)630-7960 http://aurora.regenstrief.org > From KenzieM at sympatico.ca Mon Nov 12 08:43:33 2001 From: KenzieM at sympatico.ca (Mike Kenzie) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:11:00 2005 Subject: Lifting stuff into racks References: <20011112014045.K3855-100000@lepton.subatomix.com> Message-ID: <002101c16b88$691431e0$0101a8c0@sympatico.ca> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jeffrey S. Sharp" To: Sent: Monday, November 12, 2001 2:45 AM Subject: Lifting stuff into racks > What kind of equipment/strategy do we use to lift heavy equipment into > place in a rack so that it can be fastened to the rack? Is there some > jack or hydraulic lift that can be used? > > Please tell me that the best method doesn't begin with "create a list of > muscular friends". There was a garage sale around the corner from me that was selling scissor jacks left over from installing rack mounted equipment. These were big steel 19" square jacks it looked at the time that it would only lift the item a foot at most. I have a PDP 11/34 that either needs help lifting the parts into the racks or someone who will take it home. From jpl15 at panix.com Mon Nov 12 09:14:19 2001 From: jpl15 at panix.com (John Lawson) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:11:00 2005 Subject: Lifting stuff into racks In-Reply-To: <20011112014045.K3855-100000@lepton.subatomix.com> Message-ID: On Mon, 12 Nov 2001, Jeffrey S. Sharp wrote: > What kind of equipment/strategy do we use to lift heavy equipment into > place in a rack so that it can be fastened to the rack? Is there some > jack or hydraulic lift that can be used? In some cases the rack can be laid down, the equipment mounted in it, and then it can (hopefully) be stood upright again... if the rack is heavy and you are performing this solo, you can tip the rack back against something so there is less of a 'lift' later. Depends on the hieght of the rack and the tonnage involved. Alternatively, you can run in some rack screws under the flange of the items, then mount them with the normal screws, and remove the first set. I have also used temporary aluminum rails that the unit could be slid onto in order to mount it by the flanges.. the rails are then removed for later re-use. I have, in the case of big heavy things (>200lb) used jacks and lumber, but this gets to be quite a production. Cheers John. PS: Even one other person to help makes it *much* easier. From ghldbrd at ccp.com Mon Nov 12 11:08:00 2001 From: ghldbrd at ccp.com (Gary Hildebrand) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:11:00 2005 Subject: IRC channel? References: <20011111223354.J3855-100000@lepton.subatomix.com> Message-ID: <3BF001F0.660DEA2C@ccp.com> "Jeffrey S. Sharp" wrote: > > Is there an IRC channel frequented by retrocomputing types? > > -- > Jeffrey S. Sharp > jss@subatomix.com If there isn't there should be . . . Gary Hildebrand From DAW at yalepress3.unipress.yale.edu Mon Nov 12 10:18:09 2001 From: DAW at yalepress3.unipress.yale.edu (David Woyciesjes) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:11:00 2005 Subject: New acquisitions: Suns, room, and wife requirements... Message-ID: <9011A52E011ED311B4280004AC1BA6150146727F@yalepress3.unipress.yale.edu> Well, I did okay, she's just aloowing me the whole basement, without questions, in the house we're buying... Space for the computers, bar, game table... --- David A Woyciesjes --- C & IS Support Specialist --- Yale University Press --- mailto:david.woyciesjes@yale.edu --- (203) 432-0953 --- ICQ # - 905818 ! -----Original Message----- ! From: Cameron Kaiser [mailto:spectre@stockholm.ptloma.edu] ! Sent: Sunday, November 11, 2001 3:22 PM ! To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org ! Subject: Re: New acquisitions: Suns, room ! ! ! > Well, I won't totally eliminate the possibility, but I ! think I'm going to ! > have somewhat different criteria from now on. So... does ! anyone here know ! > any single, female, pretty, smart computer geeks/nerds, ! someone that would ! > think of "writing a compiler" as spending time together? ! ! Funny, my checklist reads remarkably similar. ! ! -- ! ----------------------------- personal page: ! http://www.armory.com/~spectre/ -- ! Cameron Kaiser, Point Loma Nazarene University * ! ckaiser@stockholm.ptloma.edu ! -- When in doubt, take a pawn. -- Mission: Impossible ! ("Crack-Up") ------------ ! From edick at idcomm.com Mon Nov 12 10:19:41 2001 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:11:00 2005 Subject: Lifting stuff into racks References: Message-ID: <002c01c16b95$d54ee0a0$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> Not being a lover of rack-mounted equipment, I'm not the one to do this sort of thing often, but, when we were setting up the ISP, with dozens of drawers of 5-1/4" disk drives and the associated power supplies to heft into place so they could be screwed to the frame, we used two fellows with muscle and a third with a screwdriver and small hands with nimble fingers. When I worked in the aerospace industry, where the "right" equipment is always in the wrong place, I frequently observed a technician with a solid plate he'd made from a piece of heavy steel and a couple of brackets, on which he situated a pair of small bottle jacks with which he pushed the equipment into place so he didn't have to get help when he rearranged the hardware in the racks. I found that fairly clever, though I imagine one still had to have some skill to go with it. Dick ----- Original Message ----- From: "John Lawson" To: Sent: Monday, November 12, 2001 8:14 AM Subject: Re: Lifting stuff into racks > > > On Mon, 12 Nov 2001, Jeffrey S. Sharp wrote: > > > What kind of equipment/strategy do we use to lift heavy equipment into > > place in a rack so that it can be fastened to the rack? Is there some > > jack or hydraulic lift that can be used? > > > In some cases the rack can be laid down, the equipment mounted in it, > and then it can (hopefully) be stood upright again... if the rack is heavy > and you are performing this solo, you can tip the rack back against > something so there is less of a 'lift' later. > > Depends on the hieght of the rack and the tonnage involved. > > Alternatively, you can run in some rack screws under the flange of the > items, then mount them with the normal screws, and remove the first set. > > I have also used temporary aluminum rails that the unit could be slid > onto in order to mount it by the flanges.. the rails are then removed for > later re-use. > > I have, in the case of big heavy things (>200lb) used jacks and lumber, > but this gets to be quite a production. > > > Cheers > > John. > > PS: Even one other person to help makes it *much* easier. > > From erd_6502 at yahoo.com Mon Nov 12 10:30:02 2001 From: erd_6502 at yahoo.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:11:00 2005 Subject: Lifting stuff into racks In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20011112082945.00a6ac80@mail.wincom.net> Message-ID: <20011112163002.63298.qmail@web20103.mail.yahoo.com> --- "Charles E. Fox" wrote: > At 01:45 AM 12/11/2001 -0600, Jeffrey Sharp wrote: > >What kind of equipment/strategy do we use to lift heavy equipment into > >place in a rack so that it can be fastened to the rack? Is there some > >jack or hydraulic lift that can be used? > > The technique I have used with audio recorders, ( probably not > as heavy as computer equipment,) is to lay the rack on its back, install > the equipment, round up muscular friends and stand the rack up. If you've ever seen a rack with three RA81 drives in it, you wouldn't suggest that method - they are well over 100lbs each, IIRC. Unfortunately, most of the big stuff I load into racks (BA-11s, RL02s, RA-81s) does involve using a couple of muscular friends. Little stuff like BA-23s, RX02s, PDP-8/a boxes, etc., I do myself. There is no way I could do an RA-81 by myself. If I absolutely had to, I'd probably find a table that was nearly the same height, but a wee bit shorter, then shim it up on lumber or something similar until the rails lined up, then extend the rails and fasten it on from there. I think the heaviest thing I put in a rack by myself was a PDP-8/i I'd removed to get the rack up to my bedroom when I was in high school. Since it's so low in the rack and the rails are so large, I remember balancing it on my foot to lift it up the few inches it needed. Still took several tries to line it all up. Moving the rack by myself was a treat - nearly killed me... I stood *in* the H-960, with my feet sticking out the square hole for cable access, then hopped it up the stairs one-at-a-time. It almost fell over twice with me in it. I do *not* recommend anyone else try it. -ethan __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Find a job, post your resume. http://careers.yahoo.com From erd_6502 at yahoo.com Mon Nov 12 10:31:42 2001 From: erd_6502 at yahoo.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:11:01 2005 Subject: VAX (Was: Cromemco landmarks) In-Reply-To: <3820E2042B6ED5118DC200D0B78EDC4706620F@exc-reo1> Message-ID: <20011112163142.12653.qmail@web20102.mail.yahoo.com> --- "Carlini, Antonio" wrote: > Yes. But although there were part numbers > produced for MicroVAX II CPU modules > *without* the FPU, I don't think *any* were > ever shipped. Not even for VAXeln? -ethan __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Find a job, post your resume. http://careers.yahoo.com From erd_6502 at yahoo.com Mon Nov 12 10:39:59 2001 From: erd_6502 at yahoo.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:11:01 2005 Subject: New acquisitions: Suns, room In-Reply-To: <3BEE7820.C7DAF3AE@bellsouth.net> Message-ID: <20011112163959.92739.qmail@web20101.mail.yahoo.com> --- Doug Carman wrote: > "Jeffrey S. Sharp" wrote: > > > > I just acquired my first two Sun workstations. One is a 3/50... > > the other is a 3/60, which came from elsewhere. A > > few monitors, keyboards, and drives made it in there somewhere, also... > > That's good to hear. I have a number of old Sun3 systems including a > 3/50, 3/75, 3/80, 3/160, and a 3/470... Well, amidst all this Sun3 stuff, does anyone have a Type3 keyboard to spare? I have lots of Type4s and Type5s and I was contemplating manufacturing a DA15<->DIN-8 keyboard converter, but I'd rather have the real thing (I do have an RJ-11 mouse already). Got a Sun 3/50 that this will end up on. My current "best" Sun is a SPARC5/110 that I'm still tweaking after installing Solaris8 so I can keep current. -ethan __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Find a job, post your resume. http://careers.yahoo.com From hans at Huebner.ORG Mon Nov 12 10:48:02 2001 From: hans at Huebner.ORG (=?ISO-8859-1?Q?Hans_H=FCbner?=) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:11:01 2005 Subject: IRC channel? In-Reply-To: <3BF001F0.660DEA2C@ccp.com> Message-ID: On Mon, 12 Nov 2001, Gary Hildebrand wrote: > "Jeffrey S. Sharp" wrote: > > Is there an IRC channel frequented by retrocomputing types? > If there isn't there should be . . . /join #classiccmp in IRCnet -Hans -- finger hans@huebner.org for details From mcguire at neurotica.com Mon Nov 12 10:53:46 2001 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:11:01 2005 Subject: New acquisitions: Suns, room In-Reply-To: Re: New acquisitions: Suns, room (Iggy Drougge) References: <200111112021.MAA07970@stockholm.ptloma.edu> <591.716T1800T5835245optimus@canit.se> Message-ID: <15343.65178.964351.444933@phaduka.neurotica.com> On November 12, Iggy Drougge wrote: > >> Well, I won't totally eliminate the possibility, but I think I'm going to > >> have somewhat different criteria from now on. So... does anyone here know > >> any single, female, pretty, smart computer geeks/nerds, someone that would > >> think of "writing a compiler" as spending time together? > > >Funny, my checklist reads remarkably similar. > > It would be a wonderful world if more computer geeks were homosexual. I think it would be an even more wonderful world if people could be comfortable enough with their sexual orientation (whatever it may be) to not have to drag it into EVERY UNRELATED CONVERSATION! (not that this happens here very often, but I just escaped from an area in which this sort of behavior was very much the norm) -Dave -- Dave McGuire St. Petersburg, FL From chris at openecs.org Mon Nov 12 11:05:47 2001 From: chris at openecs.org (Christoph Wunder) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:11:01 2005 Subject: RA81 problems, someone with a service manual can help? References: <3BEF3710.7040502@aurora.regenstrief.org> <3BEF5DEA.9050508@aurora.regenstrief.org> Message-ID: <3BF0016B.69FEF514@openecs.org> Gunther Schadow wrote: > O.K. I'm sure my problems are simply due to the heads being > locked as they should. I'm confident I'll find the unlock > mechanism once I opened up the hood, but I don't know how > I open up the hood. I know how to get to the controll boards > with the serial console connector, that's just the small > cover with this one quarter-turn hex-key lock. But supposedly > you can open the larger cover that hinges farther back. > Where is that hood lock mechanism? There are to revisions of the RA81 chassis, the newer one is very similar to the RA82 chassis. The main difference, in terms of opening the hood, is that the newer RA82 like type which has a plastic front instead of a metal one, opens with two hex key locks left and right accessible through the vent grooves. The older revision of the RA81 chassis has the hood looking mechanism also in the front but exactly in the middle accessible through the vent grooves. Use a suitable screwdriver and push the lid behind the vent grooves in order to open the chassis hood. I hope this helps. Regards - Chris From uban at ubanproductions.com Mon Nov 12 11:07:57 2001 From: uban at ubanproductions.com (Tom Uban) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:11:01 2005 Subject: Lifting stuff into racks In-Reply-To: <20011112163002.63298.qmail@web20103.mail.yahoo.com> References: <5.1.0.14.0.20011112082945.00a6ac80@mail.wincom.net> Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.20011112110757.00814100@ubanproductions.com> At 08:30 AM 11/12/01 -0800, you wrote: > >--- "Charles E. Fox" wrote: >> At 01:45 AM 12/11/2001 -0600, Jeffrey Sharp wrote: >> >What kind of equipment/strategy do we use to lift heavy equipment into >> >place in a rack so that it can be fastened to the rack? Is there some >> >jack or hydraulic lift that can be used? >> >> The technique I have used with audio recorders, ( probably not >> as heavy as computer equipment,) is to lay the rack on its back, install >> the equipment, round up muscular friends and stand the rack up. > >If you've ever seen a rack with three RA81 drives in it, you wouldn't >suggest that method - they are well over 100lbs each, IIRC. > >Unfortunately, most of the big stuff I load into racks (BA-11s, RL02s, >RA-81s) does involve using a couple of muscular friends. Little stuff >like BA-23s, RX02s, PDP-8/a boxes, etc., I do myself. There is no way >I could do an RA-81 by myself. If I absolutely had to, I'd probably find >a table that was nearly the same height, but a wee bit shorter, then >shim it up on lumber or something similar until the rails lined up, then >extend the rails and fasten it on from there. > >I think the heaviest thing I put in a rack by myself was a PDP-8/i I'd >removed to get the rack up to my bedroom when I was in high school. Since >it's so low in the rack and the rails are so large, I remember balancing >it on my foot to lift it up the few inches it needed. Still took several >tries to line it all up. Moving the rack by myself was a treat - nearly >killed me... I stood *in* the H-960, with my feet sticking out the square >hole for cable access, then hopped it up the stairs one-at-a-time. It >almost fell over twice with me in it. I do *not* recommend anyone else >try it. I typically just lift the stuff into the rack myself, even the heavy stuff (like RK05s and the like). Most of the peripherals have a rail that can be mounted first, and then it is just a matter of lifting the unit up and sliding it onto the rails. The RL02s have a very nice system for doing this where the drive is actually set onto the rails and the rail interlocks into the drive so that the screws can be installed. I carried a H960 rack up the stairs to my 2nd floor office as well, but I stood inside of the rack with the rack on its side. I guess I might have a wider staircase than Ethan does... In any case, I am a fairly large person, so carrying and lifting these things is not as much of a problem. --tom From Antonio.Carlini at riverstonenet.com Mon Nov 12 11:23:47 2001 From: Antonio.Carlini at riverstonenet.com (Carlini, Antonio) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:11:01 2005 Subject: VAX (Was: Cromemco landmarks) Message-ID: <3820E2042B6ED5118DC200D0B78EDC47066211@exc-reo1> >Ethan Dicks wrote: >--- "Carlini, Antonio" wrote: > >> Yes. But although there were part numbers >> produced for MicroVAX II CPU modules >> *without* the FPU, I don't think *any* were >> ever shipped. > >Not even for VAXeln? AFAIK, no M7606 modules shipped without an FPU. I don't have them handy but IIRC there were four part numbers, two with FPU and two without (the other "variable" was something like the manufacturer for the on-board memory or some such). None of the non-FPU parts shipped (I'm not sure whether any were built for testing). Other bits of kit almost certainly shipped without an FPU: for example, I've just had a look at some preliminary DEMSA schematics and I can see no FPU. I would expect that other "dedicated" kit (LPS printers, various X-terminals etc) also dispensed with the FPU if it was not necessary. Antonio arcarlini@iee.org From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Mon Nov 12 12:03:43 2001 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (Allison) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:11:01 2005 Subject: VAX (Was: Cromemco landmarks) Message-ID: <002201c16ba4$6a1eda60$6b7b7b7b@ajp> The LPSxx printers had the FPU, at least the LPS40, 20 and 32 as I was involved with those. The Turbo20 and lps32 had the Cvax which had FPU. Allison -----Original Message----- From: Carlini, Antonio To: 'classiccmp@classiccmp.org' Date: Monday, November 12, 2001 12:55 PM Subject: RE: VAX (Was: Cromemco landmarks) > > >Ethan Dicks wrote: > >--- "Carlini, Antonio" wrote: > > > >> Yes. But although there were part numbers > >> produced for MicroVAX II CPU modules > >> *without* the FPU, I don't think *any* were > >> ever shipped. > > > >Not even for VAXeln? > > AFAIK, no M7606 modules shipped > without an FPU. I don't have them handy but > IIRC there were four part numbers, two > with FPU and two without (the other > "variable" was something like the > manufacturer for the on-board memory or > some such). None of the non-FPU > parts shipped (I'm not sure whether > any were built for testing). > > Other bits of kit almost certainly shipped > without an FPU: for example, I've > just had a look at some preliminary > DEMSA schematics and I can see > no FPU. I would expect that other > "dedicated" kit (LPS printers, > various X-terminals etc) also > dispensed with the FPU if it > was not necessary. > > Antonio > arcarlini@iee.org > From lgwalker at mts.net Mon Nov 12 12:19:38 2001 From: lgwalker at mts.net (Lawrence Walker) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:11:01 2005 Subject: Xenix ? In-Reply-To: References: <010901c16b01$e0a789a0$0b01a8c0@ValuedCustomer> Message-ID: <3BEFBE5A.31663.1D2D101D@localhost> I have an excellent book on Xenix "Understanding Xenix" by Paul Weinberg and James Groff put out by Que in 85. It goes into details about computer systems and Unix history. Apparently MS was working on Xenix before they developed DOS. It also lists the various versions of Unix and mentions an earlier version of Unix for PC/ATs by Interactive Systems called PC/IX introed in Jan 84. The book lists the vendors who offered Xenix. Vendor System Altos Altos 586 Altos 986 Apple Lisa Durango Poppy ll Encore MPU-8000 General Automation Zebra 2000 IBM IBM PC/AT System 9000 Intel Intel 286/280 Tandy/RS TRS-80 M.16 Spectrix Spectrix 10 Visual Technology Visual 2000 They also describe it as a 16/32 bit system. It offered the choice of 3 Shells. The Bourne, the C, and an unique Xenix shell - the visual shell. Lawrence > >Xenix was also a popular option for the TRS-80 Model II/12/16/6000 series. > > I couldn't remember which of the above it was available for, > so I didn't name a specific model. I've never used it on any of the > above machines myself. Was it any more usable than the version on > the Model 2000? > > Jeff > -- > Home of the TRS-80 Model 2000 FAQ File > http://www.cchaven.com > http://www.geocities.com/siliconvalley/lakes/6757 > Reply to: lgwalker@mts.net From foo at siconic.com Mon Nov 12 12:17:52 2001 From: foo at siconic.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:11:01 2005 Subject: Lifting stuff into racks In-Reply-To: <20011112014045.K3855-100000@lepton.subatomix.com> Message-ID: On Mon, 12 Nov 2001, Jeffrey S. Sharp wrote: > What kind of equipment/strategy do we use to lift heavy equipment into > place in a rack so that it can be fastened to the rack? Is there some > jack or hydraulic lift that can be used? How about getting a miniature winch and mounting it to the top of the rack? You'd be smart to secure the rack to a wall or something so it doesn't tip over. Or maybe use an automobile "cherry picker"? Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org From foo at siconic.com Mon Nov 12 12:30:01 2001 From: foo at siconic.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:11:01 2005 Subject: Lifting stuff into racks In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20011112082945.00a6ac80@mail.wincom.net> Message-ID: On Mon, 12 Nov 2001, Charles E. Fox wrote: > The technique I have used with audio recorders, ( probably > not as heavy as computer equipment,) is to lay the rack on its back, > install the equipment, round up muscular friends and stand the rack > up. If we built buildings like this, I don't think we'd have many skyscrapers. Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org From healyzh at aracnet.com Mon Nov 12 12:44:34 2001 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:11:01 2005 Subject: Lifting stuff into racks In-Reply-To: <20011112014045.K3855-100000@lepton.subatomix.com> Message-ID: >What kind of equipment/strategy do we use to lift heavy equipment into >place in a rack so that it can be fastened to the rack? Is there some >jack or hydraulic lift that can be used? At work they've got a really neat gadget for this, it'll work for stuff that's not mounted to high (or heavy). Basically you turn a crank and it lifts it to more or less the height you need, but it still takes a couple people at least to finish the job. I've only been involved in using it once, since our UNIX servers come built into their own racks (yes, we use big UNIX systems). Anyway the one NT guy needed some help and foolish me, I said I'd help. Let me tell you, Compaq makes some HEAVY gear (I've got DEC stuff that's bigger, and a lot lighter)! It was all the gadget could handle getting it up. Zane -- | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator | | healyzh@aracnet.com (primary) | OpenVMS Enthusiast | | | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | PDP-10 Emulation and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | From univac2 at earthlink.net Mon Nov 12 12:50:41 2001 From: univac2 at earthlink.net (Owen Robertson) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:11:01 2005 Subject: TRS-80 Network 3 Controller Message-ID: I just bought a TRS-80 Network 3 Controller on eBay. I don't really know anything about it, but having missed out on a similar item earlier, I decided it was worth the $30. The downside is it doesn't have a power supply. Does anyone here have one they'd like to pass along? Also, any information about it would be usefull. All I know about it was told to me by a friend who used the system at a school she taught at once. Thanks, Owen From geneb at deltasoft.com Mon Nov 12 13:12:56 2001 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (Gene Buckle) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:11:01 2005 Subject: Lifting stuff into racks In-Reply-To: Message-ID: > On Mon, 12 Nov 2001, Charles E. Fox wrote: > > > The technique I have used with audio recorders, ( probably > > not as heavy as computer equipment,) is to lay the rack on its back, > > install the equipment, round up muscular friends and stand the rack > > up. > > If we built buildings like this, I don't think we'd have many skyscrapers. > Well I think the point is, for computer equipment this DOES work. It's how I managed to get four RA81s into a rack all by myself. I had help returning the rack to vertical of course. g. From Innfogra at aol.com Mon Nov 12 13:04:06 2001 From: Innfogra at aol.com (Innfogra@aol.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:11:01 2005 Subject: Lifting stuff into racks Message-ID: I have successfully used automotive floor jacks. I use a sheet of wood on top of the swivel part, mainly to avoid marking the drive. Once it is loose it takes two people to stabilize it (they are very awkward) and a third to move the jack. This can give you good height adjustment. For several years I had a transmission jack which worked the best. It dealt with the center of gravity better. Of course these only work in the bottom half of the rack and with rails. I had several roll around tables of different heights that worked for dealing with drives in the top of the equipment. We could generally use wood blocks to get the drives to the right heights. Most of those were tape drives and tended to be more awkward and not on rails. Most of the time I have used a pallet jack with wooden blocks. They roll real easy and have an easy height adjustment. Makes it easy to slide the drive onto a pallet after removal. You can block up one fork and balance the drive on that if you can get one fork inside the cabinet. I also have a small chain hoist that I got when I bought a JEOL electron microscope. However I rarely use it for lifting drives. Paxton Astoria, OR From djenner at earthlink.net Mon Nov 12 13:07:48 2001 From: djenner at earthlink.net (David C. Jenner) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:11:01 2005 Subject: Xenix ? References: <010901c16b01$e0a789a0$0b01a8c0@ValuedCustomer> <3BEFBE5A.31663.1D2D101D@localhost> Message-ID: <3BF01E04.E548DBBE@earthlink.net> I had three IBM 9000s (hal, sal, and pal, of course) running Xenix. The hardware was solid gold for reliability and ran unattended for months at a remote site. Xenix was also rock solid, and I could depend on it to send me daily emails with status, etc., of the site. Dave Lawrence Walker wrote: > > I have an excellent book on Xenix "Understanding Xenix" by Paul Weinberg > and James Groff put out by Que in 85. It goes into details about computer > systems and Unix history. Apparently MS was working on Xenix before they > developed DOS. It also lists the various versions of Unix and mentions an > earlier version of Unix for PC/ATs by Interactive Systems called PC/IX introed > in Jan 84. The book lists the vendors who offered Xenix. > > Vendor System > > Altos Altos 586 > Altos 986 > Apple Lisa > Durango Poppy ll > Encore MPU-8000 > General Automation Zebra 2000 > IBM IBM PC/AT > System 9000 > Intel Intel 286/280 > Tandy/RS TRS-80 M.16 > Spectrix Spectrix 10 > Visual Technology Visual 2000 > > They also describe it as a 16/32 bit system. It offered the choice of 3 Shells. > The Bourne, the C, and an unique Xenix shell - the visual shell. > > Lawrence > > > >Xenix was also a popular option for the TRS-80 Model II/12/16/6000 series. > > > > I couldn't remember which of the above it was available for, > > so I didn't name a specific model. I've never used it on any of the > > above machines myself. Was it any more usable than the version on > > the Model 2000? > > > > Jeff > > -- > > Home of the TRS-80 Model 2000 FAQ File > > http://www.cchaven.com > > http://www.geocities.com/siliconvalley/lakes/6757 > > > > Reply to: > lgwalker@mts.net -- David C. Jenner djenner@earthlink.net From red at bears.org Mon Nov 12 13:10:51 2001 From: red at bears.org (r. 'bear' stricklin) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:11:01 2005 Subject: offered: 8-port AUI Fanout In-Reply-To: <300.716T2300T3515605optimus@canit.se> Message-ID: On 12 Nov 2001, Iggy Drougge wrote: > >I've got an ISOLAN 8-port Ethernet AUI Fanout available for the taking by > >anybody more interested in obsolete network topologies than I. > > What is it? Some kind of DELNI(?)-like AUI repeater? Yes, it is an ethernet multiport repeater. ok r. From Robert_Feldman at jdedwards.com Mon Nov 12 13:17:26 2001 From: Robert_Feldman at jdedwards.com (Feldman, Robert) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:11:01 2005 Subject: Lifting stuff into racks Message-ID: It worked for the Egyptians :) How about renting a chain lift (try hardware store or auto parts store) such as used for lifting engine blocks? -----Original Message----- From: Sellam Ismail [mailto:foo@siconic.com] Sent: Monday, November 12, 2001 12:30 PM To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org Subject: Re: Lifting stuff into racks On Mon, 12 Nov 2001, Charles E. Fox wrote: > The technique I have used with audio recorders, ( probably > not as heavy as computer equipment,) is to lay the rack on its back, > install the equipment, round up muscular friends and stand the rack > up. If we built buildings like this, I don't think we'd have many skyscrapers. Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- -- International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org From donm at cts.com Mon Nov 12 13:27:35 2001 From: donm at cts.com (Don Maslin) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:11:01 2005 Subject: New acquisitions: Suns, room In-Reply-To: <591.716T1800T5835245optimus@canit.se> Message-ID: On 12 Nov 2001, Iggy Drougge wrote: > Cameron Kaiser skrev: > > >> Well, I won't totally eliminate the possibility, but I think I'm going to > >> have somewhat different criteria from now on. So... does anyone here know > >> any single, female, pretty, smart computer geeks/nerds, someone that would > >> think of "writing a compiler" as spending time together? > > >Funny, my checklist reads remarkably similar. > > It would be a wonderful world if more computer geeks were homosexual. ...and even better if more homosexuals weren't! - don > -- > En ligne avec Thor 2.6a. > > G? med i SUGA, Swedish Usergroup of Amiga! > WWW: http://swedish.usergroup.amiga.tm/ > BBS: 08-6582572, telnet://sua.ath.cx:42512 > > > From mcguire at neurotica.com Mon Nov 12 13:37:49 2001 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:11:01 2005 Subject: New acquisitions: Suns, room In-Reply-To: Re: New acquisitions: Suns, room (Don Maslin) References: <591.716T1800T5835245optimus@canit.se> Message-ID: <15344.9485.25009.911275@phaduka.neurotica.com> On November 12, Don Maslin wrote: > > It would be a wonderful world if more computer geeks were homosexual. > > ...and even better if more homosexuals weren't! DOH! I'm going to close my mailer for a while. This could get ugly. ;) -Dave -- Dave McGuire St. Petersburg, FL From donm at cts.com Mon Nov 12 13:44:13 2001 From: donm at cts.com (Don Maslin) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:11:01 2005 Subject: New acquisitions: Suns, room In-Reply-To: <15343.65178.964351.444933@phaduka.neurotica.com> Message-ID: On Mon, 12 Nov 2001, Dave McGuire wrote: > On November 12, Iggy Drougge wrote: > > >> Well, I won't totally eliminate the possibility, but I think I'm going to > > >> have somewhat different criteria from now on. So... does anyone here know > > >> any single, female, pretty, smart computer geeks/nerds, someone that would > > >> think of "writing a compiler" as spending time together? > > > > >Funny, my checklist reads remarkably similar. > > > > It would be a wonderful world if more computer geeks were homosexual. > > I think it would be an even more wonderful world if people could be > comfortable enough with their sexual orientation (whatever it may be) > to not have to drag it into EVERY UNRELATED CONVERSATION! More germane than my comment. - don > (not that this happens here very often, but I just escaped from an > area in which this sort of behavior was very much the norm) > > -Dave > > -- > Dave McGuire > St. Petersburg, FL > From jkaye at isd.net Mon Nov 12 14:00:43 2001 From: jkaye at isd.net (jkaye) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:11:01 2005 Subject: Lifting stuff into racks References: <20011112014045.K3855-100000@lepton.subatomix.com> Message-ID: <3BF02A6B.E4711CF6@isd.net> "Jeffrey S. Sharp" wrote: > > What kind of equipment/strategy do we use to lift heavy equipment into > place in a rack so that it can be fastened to the rack? Is there some > jack or hydraulic lift that can be used? > > Please tell me that the best method doesn't begin with "create a list of > muscular friends". > > -- > Jeffrey S. Sharp > jss@subatomix.com While I haven't racked large computer systems, I used to do a lot with audio, and racking large amplifier arrays. What we did was lay the rack down on the ground, front facing up. then we "dropped" in the amps so that the faces were pointing up. Then when the rack was filled, we would lift the top of the rack so that it was standing upright. Took 2 people, but that was only to lift it. One person could do the install and mounting quite easily. -- Joseph Kaye 1989 Lincoln Mark VII LSC 1995 Ford Aerostar XLT -80HP NOS System -Contemplating Nitrous Install... -B&M AOD Shift Kit -4.0 V6 / Electronic 4wd -Addco Swaybars and Koni Struts -ALL YOUR BASE ARE BELONG TO US From Antonio.Carlini at riverstonenet.com Mon Nov 12 14:07:25 2001 From: Antonio.Carlini at riverstonenet.com (Carlini, Antonio) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:11:01 2005 Subject: VAX (Was: Cromemco landmarks) Message-ID: <3820E2042B6ED5118DC200D0B78EDC47066215@exc-reo1> > Allison wrote: > >The LPSxx printers had the FPU, at least the LPS40, 20 and 32 >as I was involved with those. The Turbo20 and lps32 had the Cvax >which had FPU. Re-reading my earlier message, I think I had the wrong empasis. I meant "Almost certainly *some* kit shipped without an FPU" not that all non-computer kit shipped without an FPU. For example, the DECnis started out using culled SOCs: no guarantee that the FPU worked and no guarantee that more than (I think) five of the cache banks were good. This was a way of using up SOCs that were no good for computer systems. I think I remember reading in one of the DTJs that some of the VT1xxx and/or VTX systems had no FPU. Antonio arcarlini@iee.org From foo at siconic.com Mon Nov 12 14:16:25 2001 From: foo at siconic.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:11:01 2005 Subject: Lifting stuff into racks In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Mon, 12 Nov 2001, Gene Buckle wrote: > Well I think the point is, for computer equipment this DOES work. > It's how I managed to get four RA81s into a rack all by myself. I had > help returning the rack to vertical of course. This still doesn't solve the problem of trying to do it on one's own. A mini-winch mounted to the top of a properly stabili(zs)ed rack is probably the ideal. A more cumbersome device would be a lever and piston setup, but it could be made with readily available lumber. Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org From foo at siconic.com Mon Nov 12 14:18:06 2001 From: foo at siconic.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:11:01 2005 Subject: Lifting stuff into racks In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Mon, 12 Nov 2001 Innfogra@aol.com wrote: > I have successfully used automotive floor jacks. I use a sheet of wood on top > of the swivel part, mainly to avoid marking the drive. Once it is loose it > takes two people to stabilize it (they are very awkward) and a third to move > the jack. This can give you good height adjustment. > > For several years I had a transmission jack which worked the best. It dealt > with the center of gravity better. Of course these only work in the bottom > half of the rack and with rails. > > I had several roll around tables of different heights that worked for dealing > with drives in the top of the equipment. We could generally use wood blocks > to get the drives to the right heights. Most of those were tape drives and > tended to be more awkward and not on rails. > > Most of the time I have used a pallet jack with wooden blocks. They roll real > easy and have an easy height adjustment. Makes it easy to slide the drive > onto a pallet after removal. You can block up one fork and balance the drive > on that if you can get one fork inside the cabinet. > > I also have a small chain hoist that I got when I bought a JEOL electron > microscope. However I rarely use it for lifting drives. I think we could learn a lot from the Egyptians in this matter. Too bad they didn't leave behind a reference guide. Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org From KESullivan at Norstan.com Mon Nov 12 14:23:26 2001 From: KESullivan at Norstan.com (Sullivan, Kevin E.) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:11:01 2005 Subject: WTS - Cisco PIX Message-ID: 12-November Vibes Technologies has the following used/refurbished Cisco products available for sale: Qty-2 PIX-520-UR-CH $3500/EA Qty-1 PIX-520-1K-CH $2900/EA In Vibes stock, tested and warranted for 90 days. Please contact me if you would like a list of our Cisco inventory. Kevin E. Sullivan Vibes Technologies, Inc. 763-971-6267 www.vibestech.com From chris at mainecoon.com Mon Nov 12 14:53:39 2001 From: chris at mainecoon.com (Chris Kennedy) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:11:01 2005 Subject: Lifting stuff into racks In-Reply-To: Message-ID: I have a decided love-hate relationship with my racks. I love having the stuff organized, but the process sucks. Recently I racked up a bunch of 4U machines in my upstairs office and removed one bay, a process that was accomplished using the tried-and-true technique of holding screws in my mouth while using my left shoulder and arm to hold the machines in place and my right hand to position and drive the rack screws. The worst part was de-racking an HP front-loading nine-track drive and having it get hung up on one of its rails. Fortunately Jen is still maneuverable at nine months pregnant and was able to coax the offending slide into behaving while I cursed and wondered if I was going to end up dropping the pig. I generally look for help when it comes to racking minicomputers. I've managed to rack and derack DG gear solo, but nothing bigger than a jumbo chassis and always with bloodletting and bent backplane pins as a consequence. Recently I've taken to blending hobbies; substantial quantities of homebrew usually yields a body or two to help move stuff around. I need to re-rack John's old PR1ME, but I'm waiting until he returns to give me a hand. It scares me a bit. Fortunately it's in the garage, where there's a bit more latitude when it comes to being a tool-using ape... -- Chris Kennedy chris@mainecoon.com http://www.mainecoon.com PGP fingerprint: 4E99 10B6 7253 B048 6685 6CBC 55E1 20A3 108D AB97 From pete at dunnington.u-net.com Mon Nov 12 14:36:57 2001 From: pete at dunnington.u-net.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:11:01 2005 Subject: 100 Mb ARCnet? In-Reply-To: "Iggy Drougge" "100 Mb ARCnet?" (Nov 12, 4:22) References: <234.716T1950T2626015optimus@canit.se> Message-ID: <10111122036.ZM9351@mindy.dunnington.u-net.com> On Nov 12, 4:22, Iggy Drougge wrote: > I found this link on USENET: > http://cgi.ebay.de/aw-cgi/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=1294262119 > > Is it a 100 Mb ARCnet card? 100 Mb ARCnet? > The ThomasConrad name implies that is the case, but 100 Mb ARCnet? No, it's TCNS (a proprietary alternative to 100Mb Ethernet, but it doesn't use compatible protocols). Thomas Conrad made several types of network card: 10base2, 100baseT, 100VG, ArcNET, token ring, TCNS, ... -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager University of York From pete at dunnington.u-net.com Mon Nov 12 14:41:30 2001 From: pete at dunnington.u-net.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:11:01 2005 Subject: Lifting stuff into racks In-Reply-To: "Jeffrey S. Sharp" "Lifting stuff into racks" (Nov 12, 1:45) References: <20011112014045.K3855-100000@lepton.subatomix.com> Message-ID: <10111122041.ZM9355@mindy.dunnington.u-net.com> On Nov 12, 1:45, Jeffrey S. Sharp wrote: > What kind of equipment/strategy do we use to lift heavy equipment into > place in a rack so that it can be fastened to the rack? Is there some > jack or hydraulic lift that can be used? > > Please tell me that the best method doesn't begin with "create a list of > muscular friends". Mine does :-) (Hi, James!) -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager University of York From pete at dunnington.u-net.com Mon Nov 12 14:57:52 2001 From: pete at dunnington.u-net.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:11:01 2005 Subject: Lifting stuff into racks In-Reply-To: Ethan Dicks "Re: Lifting stuff into racks" (Nov 12, 8:30) References: <20011112163002.63298.qmail@web20103.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <10111122057.ZM9361@mindy.dunnington.u-net.com> On Nov 12, 8:30, Ethan Dicks wrote: > If you've ever seen a rack with three RA81 drives in it, you wouldn't > suggest that method - they are well over 100lbs each, IIRC. Yes, well over. > Unfortunately, most of the big stuff I load into racks (BA-11s, RL02s, > RA-81s) does involve using a couple of muscular friends. Little stuff > like BA-23s, RX02s, PDP-8/a boxes, etc., I do myself. Me too... > I think the heaviest thing I put in a rack by myself was a PDP-8/i I'd > removed to get the rack up to my bedroom when I was in high school. Since > it's so low in the rack and the rails are so large, I remember balancing > it on my foot to lift it up the few inches it needed. Still took several > tries to line it all up. That's what I've done for my RL02s, a few times. I can *just* manage one on my own. The heavier drives need at least two people, as does a BA11-K. > Moving the rack by myself was a treat - nearly > killed me... I stood *in* the H-960, with my feet sticking out the square > hole for cable access, then hopped it up the stairs one-at-a-time. That must have been quite a sight! I've just moved one myself, but on the flat (which is probably cheating ;-) even though it is rather full). They're heavy strong racks -- mine has an 11/40 right in the top, and the rest is so heavy that it doesn't topple or sway, even with the 11/40 fully extended out the front, and no extra extension legs. > I do *not* recommend anyone else try it. Indeed not! -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager University of York From erd_6502 at yahoo.com Mon Nov 12 15:21:29 2001 From: erd_6502 at yahoo.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:11:01 2005 Subject: Lifting stuff into racks In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20011112212129.35815.qmail@web20101.mail.yahoo.com> --- Sellam Ismail wrote: > I think we could learn a lot from the Egyptians in this matter. Too bad > they didn't leave behind a reference guide. I've heard two plausible theories - a) they wrapped rounded blocks on all four sides of the massive stone blocks and rolled them around and b) they actually cast the blocks in place - they aren't stone, they are more akin to concrete made from something other than limestone. Now Stonehenge (an ancient calculating device, so perhaps more On Topic) may have been built by building cofferdams around pairs of the vertical stones (plinths?) and floating the horizontal stones up into place on rafts. _That_ technique might work for raising RA-81s... -ethan __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Find a job, post your resume. http://careers.yahoo.com From erd_6502 at yahoo.com Mon Nov 12 15:23:54 2001 From: erd_6502 at yahoo.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:11:01 2005 Subject: Lifting stuff into racks In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20011112212354.50383.qmail@web20102.mail.yahoo.com> --- Sellam Ismail wrote: > On Mon, 12 Nov 2001, Charles E. Fox wrote: > > > The technique I have used with audio recorders, ( probably > > not as heavy as computer equipment,) is to lay the rack on its back, > > install the equipment, round up muscular friends and stand the rack > > up. > > If we built buildings like this, I don't think we'd have many > skyscrapers. Or at least not many buildings *next* to skyscrapers... -ethan __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Find a job, post your resume. http://careers.yahoo.com From ghldbrd at ccp.com Mon Nov 12 18:12:43 2001 From: ghldbrd at ccp.com (Gary Hildebrand) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:11:01 2005 Subject: Lifting stuff into racks References: <20011112212354.50383.qmail@web20102.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <3BF0657B.4B51DE6E@ccp.com> I've been there a couple times, mounting boat anchor radio equipment into racks. I've found a couple things that do work: Plan your installation and mount the equipment from the bottom up. I use spacers out of whatever material is handy, and use it to balance the next piece of equipment. If you have to put something above something else with a space, put two screws in the holes just below where you are mounting said equipment. Then use some sort of spacer (blocks, boxes, books, etc) to sit the equipment on while you insert the proper screws. Rotten job, but we all have to do it . . . . Gary Hildebrand From gwynp at artware.qc.ca Mon Nov 12 17:28:24 2001 From: gwynp at artware.qc.ca (gwynp@artware.qc.ca) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:11:01 2005 Subject: Xenix ? In-Reply-To: <20011112034853.CHGZ9778.femail9.sdc1.sfba.home.com@BENCHBOX> Message-ID: On 12-Nov-2001 UberTechnoid@home.com wrote: > As far as open architecture, ISA was very well documented and noone > needed to pay IBM to use the buss. MCA was a different story. The PC > wasn't an open architecture, but the effects were something of the > same. Heck there are ISA slots on Amigas, Ataris, etc..... My MIPScomputer M/120 has ISA slots. Being big endian, it has to do some fun things with byte and word swapping different parts of the IO space. -Philip From george at racsys.rt.rain.com Mon Nov 12 17:33:43 2001 From: george at racsys.rt.rain.com (George Leo Rachor Jr.) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:11:01 2005 Subject: Lifting stuff into racks In-Reply-To: <3BF0657B.4B51DE6E@ccp.com> Message-ID: All good advice.... Let me chime in with one more piece of advice (Based on a very scary experience). I'm actually restating the obvious. If any of your rack equipment is installed with sliders make sure to only have one device extended on a slider at a time. Failure to do so can cause the rack to topple if not anchored down and it can be a very bad day. George Rachor ========================================================= George L. Rachor Jr. george@rachors.com Hillsboro, Oregon http://rachors.com United States of America Amateur Radio : KD7DCX On Mon, 12 Nov 2001, Gary Hildebrand wrote: > I've been there a couple times, mounting boat anchor radio equipment > into racks. I've found a couple things that do work: > > Plan your installation and mount the equipment from the bottom up. I > use spacers out of whatever material is handy, and use it to balance the > next piece of equipment. > > If you have to put something above something else with a space, put two > screws in the holes just below where you are mounting said equipment. > Then use some sort of spacer (blocks, boxes, books, etc) to sit the > equipment on while you insert the proper screws. > > Rotten job, but we all have to do it . . . . > > Gary Hildebrand > From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Nov 12 16:11:04 2001 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:11:01 2005 Subject: RA81 problems, someone with a service manual can help? In-Reply-To: <3BEF3710.7040502@aurora.regenstrief.org> from "Gunther Schadow" at Nov 11, 1 09:42:24 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 905 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20011112/d4330fe2/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Nov 12 16:16:47 2001 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:11:01 2005 Subject: Xenix ? In-Reply-To: <3BEF45ED.4C216AE7@jetnet.ab.ca> from "Ben Franchuk" at Nov 11, 1 08:45:49 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 727 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20011112/26f59eb4/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Nov 12 16:35:43 2001 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:11:01 2005 Subject: H7140 PDP 11/24 Power Supply Advice In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.2.20011111220100.03c90278@cirithi> from "Jay Jaeger" at Nov 11, 1 10:20:37 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 7030 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20011112/c30a86bd/attachment.ksh From gwynp at artware.qc.ca Mon Nov 12 17:40:54 2001 From: gwynp at artware.qc.ca (gwynp@artware.qc.ca) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:11:01 2005 Subject: Lifting stuff into racks In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On 12-Nov-2001 Chris Kennedy wrote: > I need to re-rack John's old PR1ME, but I'm waiting until he > returns to give me a hand. One re-racks wines, not beers.... -Philip From cube1 at home.com Mon Nov 12 17:45:36 2001 From: cube1 at home.com (Jay Jaeger) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:11:01 2005 Subject: H7140 PDP 11/24 Power Supply Advice In-Reply-To: References: <4.3.2.7.2.20011111160319.02014c80@cirithi> Message-ID: <4.3.2.7.2.20011112172518.03ca6e58@cirithi> Tony, you get the "superhero" rating in my book. With minimal description on my part, you pegged the failure spot on. (Except that the designation for the capacitor he identified as C16 is C4 on my schematic -- it was pretty clear to me which one you pointed me to). Sure enough the 82uf electrolytic had bit the dust. No external evidence of trauma, but when I pulled it, it failed on my capacitance meter, and a temporary replacement got the power supply running again. ( DC On is lit -- a very good sign -- I have a Unibus map module which is supposed to blink the DC On LED if voltages are out of tolerance, and the CPU card self-test LED's end up in the correct state. I won't be hooking up the terminal, etc., until I get the correct replacement capacitor, but there is no reason to think that it isn't just fine. I'm curious: Other than the fact that if it were leaky it would drag down the +13V, was there some other particular reason you were suspicious? Incidentally, the startup drive stayed at about +9.2V. Now, off to find a replacement (it is a 3 lead jobber, the normal to axial leads, plus an extra radial (-) lead from the top of the can -- perhaps for shielding. The "testing" replacement was a normal cheap electrolytic (and 15V underrated at that -- sheepish grin). That will be an adventure in itself. Funny thing: I think I have had 4 power supply failures in my collection. For sure I have had 4 that were caused by bad electrolytics. My original Altair had one die (and the ones in there almost certainly need reforming). In a PDP-11/05 one died and took a transistor with it. On my PDP-12, the main capacitors needed reforming and took a bridge with them, and now this one. Capacitors won't catch up to bad light bulbs for repairs, but they're catching up. 8^) Reminds me of the story of the IBM 1414 I/O Synchronizer on an IBM 1410 at the U. Wisconsin School of Business. Every day we had to wait 5 minutes for the "sync check" light to extinguish on our 1403 printer after power up. It was that way for years. Finally, one day a senior CE and our usual CE had had enough, got the machine from us (probably one summer day), and looked for the cause. It turned out that manufacturing had installed 20 or more bypass electrolytics on the machine's backplane *backwards*. They replaced them all, and the problem went away for good. Thanks again, Tony! Jay At 11:52 PM 11/11/2001 +0000, you wrote: > > > > I have had a PDP-11/24 for some years, working just fine (last time I had > > it on was about last May). > > > > Yesterday it decided not to work. Looks like the H7140 supply. The +300V > >I've come across this PSU in the 11/44.... > >Good luck, it's by far the most complicated SMPSU you're likely to work >on. There are 3 independant chopper circuits in there. Yes, the bias >supply is also a switch-mode device (!). > >The chopper transistor for this supply is Q25 on the bias/interface >board (sheet 3 in the printset). The chopper transformer is T1 on the >H7140 motherboard. The chopper is driven by E15 (555) on the >bias/interface PCB (sheet 3 again), with regulation applied via Q15 and >Q26 (again bias/interface sheet 3). > > > on the voltage doubler is there, but the +13V in the Bias/Interface board > > reads about +7V. I suspect this is central to the problem. (The +12V > Bias > > is also reading about +7V). > >Yes, that is going to cause problems. From what I can see, the 12V line >(rectified output of the bias chopper transformer -- rectified by D6 on >the motherboard) is essentially unregulated. The regulation, such as it >is, comes from the winding linking 3-4 on the chopper transformer, which >also provides the +13V (on the 'hot' side of the PSU) via D36 >(bias/interface sheet 3). > >Now the fact that the +12V (on the secondary side of the PSU -- you have >realised the grounds are not common, right?) is present would seem to >indicate that the chopper is running. Just not producing the right voltages. > >I would start by looking at the schematic on page 3 of the bias/interface >board prints. Check the electrolytics first -- for some reason I don't >much like the look of C16 (82uF), which is the smoothing capacitor for >the 13V line. > > > Any words of advice? Does anyone have a technical description of the > > H7140? I have schematics (and can read them at the component level), but > > power supplies are hardly my strong point -- it would be useful to have > > some description of just how this animal goes thru a power up > >It appears, from a quick glance at the schematics, that the startup >voltage comes from the 150V midpoint on the voltage doubler via Q23 >(bias/interface sheet 3). This gets E15 oscillating. The chopper >transformer then outputs the 13V line (which takes over from the startup >supply) and the 12V line to the rest of the PSU's electronics (the latter >being on the isolated 'secondary' side). > > > sequence. Plus, blind diagnosis will be slow -- there aren't any test > > points, and one needs to make sure the +300V from the doubler has been > > bled off before yanking cards to solder test tails at strategic points. It > >It's nasty. 380V or so on screw terminals at the top of the PSU. Lethal, >in fact!. > >When I was debugging one of these (I have memory PSU problems in my >11/44), I connected a 10k high-wattage resistor across my voltmeter >probes. After pulling the mains plug I touched said probes onto the 380V >screw terminals to discharge the capacitors. Then I could start pulling >cards. > >But it's not my favourite supply to work on by any means... > >-tony --- Jay R. Jaeger The Computer Collection cube1@home.com visit http://members.home.net/thecomputercollection From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Nov 12 17:48:54 2001 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:11:01 2005 Subject: Lifting stuff into racks In-Reply-To: <10111122041.ZM9355@mindy.dunnington.u-net.com> from "Pete Turnbull" at Nov 12, 1 08:41:30 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1420 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20011112/dcfabb01/attachment.ksh From chris at mainecoon.com Mon Nov 12 17:57:50 2001 From: chris at mainecoon.com (Chris Kennedy) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:11:01 2005 Subject: Lifting stuff into racks In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Actually, with all-grain brewing of high SG beers I often rack a batch at least twice before kegging. Then again, the comment quoted was about a _machine_... -- Chris Kennedy chris@mainecoon.com http://www.mainecoon.com PGP fingerprint: 4E99 10B6 7253 B048 6685 6CBC 55E1 20A3 108D AB97 -----Original Message----- From: owner-classiccmp@classiccmp.org [mailto:owner-classiccmp@classiccmp.org]On Behalf Of gwynp@artware.qc.ca Sent: Monday, November 12, 2001 3:41 PM To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org Subject: RE: Lifting stuff into racks On 12-Nov-2001 Chris Kennedy wrote: > I need to re-rack John's old PR1ME, but I'm waiting until he > returns to give me a hand. One re-racks wines, not beers.... -Philip From donm at cts.com Mon Nov 12 18:20:22 2001 From: donm at cts.com (Don Maslin) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:11:01 2005 Subject: WordPerfect Earlier in my reading the list today, I noted in passing an email by someone who was looking for an early version of WP - in the 3.x IIRC. If v4.2 would be of any use to you, please email me off list and it is yours for postage fees from 92037. - don From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Nov 12 18:12:57 2001 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:11:01 2005 Subject: H7140 PDP 11/24 Power Supply Advice In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.2.20011112172518.03ca6e58@cirithi> from "Jay Jaeger" at Nov 12, 1 05:45:36 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1892 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20011113/47d6ca83/attachment.ksh From jhellige at earthlink.net Mon Nov 12 18:25:48 2001 From: jhellige at earthlink.net (Jeff Hellige) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:11:01 2005 Subject: Xenix ? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: >AFAIK you didn't. The CoCo 2 can run OS-9 (I ran such a system for many >years before I upgraded to a CoCo 3), and there's no MMU in that. The >memory map is essentially all RAM (64K RAM, no paging or anything like >that), with a little lost to I/O near the top of the address space. My SWTPc S/09 has 56k of RAM and a 6809 and it's set up to run OS-9 without an MMU. It does some interesting address translation using a DAT RAM though that allows it to have more RAM than that, though I don't. Jeff -- Home of the TRS-80 Model 2000 FAQ File http://www.cchaven.com http://www.geocities.com/siliconvalley/lakes/6757 From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Mon Nov 12 14:18:08 2001 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (Ben Franchuk) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:11:01 2005 Subject: Xenix ? References: Message-ID: <3BF02E80.10B9C441@jetnet.ab.ca> Tony Duell wrote: > > > The only OS that came close to Unix for 8 bit micros was OS/9 for the > > 6809 and > > even then you needed a external MMU. > ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ > AFAIK you didn't. The CoCo 2 can run OS-9 (I ran such a system for many > years before I upgraded to a CoCo 3), and there's no MMU in that. The > memory map is essentially all RAM (64K RAM, no paging or anything like > that), with a little lost to I/O near the top of the address space. > > Of course with no MMU you didn't have any memory protection, so user > processes could directly write anywhere in memory. Yes, this is a Bad > Thing, but if your programs were well-behaved and didn't try to do this > then OS-9 would work quite well on a plain 6809 + 64K RAM. > > -tony Well I ran OS-9 level #1 too, but for any real work level 2 (mmu) was needed. I had a Coco 3 once but never got OS-9 level 2 because RS dropped the product line before I could save up for it and buy a memory upgrade. Also they did not have any real I/O for the Coco. Ben Franchuk. PS. With the OS9 C compiler I used only a simple variable could be used in the switch statement. "switch( simple variable ) { ..." -- Live "Pre-historic Cpu's" -- and you thought they were extinct. www.jetnet.ab.ca/users/bfranchuk/index.html From javi at cse.ucsc.edu Mon Nov 12 18:33:05 2001 From: javi at cse.ucsc.edu (Francis. Javier Mesa) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:11:02 2005 Subject: Xenix ? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Mon, 12 Nov 2001 gwynp@artware.qc.ca wrote: > > On 12-Nov-2001 UberTechnoid@home.com wrote: > > As far as open architecture, ISA was very well documented and noone > > needed to pay IBM to use the buss. MCA was a different story. The PC > > wasn't an open architecture, but the effects were something of the > > same. Heck there are ISA slots on Amigas, Ataris, etc..... > > My MIPScomputer M/120 has ISA slots. Being big endian, it has to do some > fun things with byte and word swapping different parts of the IO space. > AFAIK Apollos (before they were bought by HP) used ISA with most of their M68K machines. I think they also used ISA with their risc DN10K boxen. _______________________________________________________________________ Francisco J. MesaMartinez http://www.cse.ucsc.edu/~javi _______________________________________________________________________ Basking Engineering Ctr #228 email:javi@cse.ucsc.edu University of California Santa Cruz, CA 95064 phone:(831) 502-2073 _______________________________________________________________________ From geoffrob at stmarks.pp.catholic.edu.au Mon Nov 12 18:46:16 2001 From: geoffrob at stmarks.pp.catholic.edu.au (Geoff Roberts) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:11:02 2005 Subject: IRC channel? References: Message-ID: <015401c16bdc$9ab00a90$de2c67cb@helpdesk> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Hans H?bner" To: Sent: Tuesday, November 13, 2001 3:18 AM Subject: Re: IRC channel? > On Mon, 12 Nov 2001, Gary Hildebrand wrote: > > > "Jeffrey S. Sharp" wrote: > > > > Is there an IRC channel frequented by retrocomputing types? > > > If there isn't there should be . . . > > /join #classiccmp in IRCnet Got a listing of their servers? Cheers Geoff Roberts Computer Systems Manager Saint Mark's College Port Pirie, South Australia geoffrob@stmarks.pp.catholic.edu.au ICQ 1970476 From red at bears.org Mon Nov 12 19:02:47 2001 From: red at bears.org (r. 'bear' stricklin) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:11:02 2005 Subject: Xenix ? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Mon, 12 Nov 2001, Francis. Javier Mesa wrote: > AFAIK Apollos (before they were bought by HP) used ISA with most of their > M68K machines. I think they also used ISA with their risc DN10K boxen. Yes, Apollos were, in their later desktop arrangements, ISA boxes, with the same byte-ordering issues that somebody mentioned earlier. Before that, they were Multibus, and the DN10000 used "XBus" which I don't believe is related to the bus by the same name used by Sun for a short while. The DN10k was prone to smoke its XBus terminators, and finding working ones are a perennial problem for resurrectors. ok r. From jhellige at earthlink.net Mon Nov 12 19:07:45 2001 From: jhellige at earthlink.net (Jeff Hellige) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:11:02 2005 Subject: IRC channel? In-Reply-To: <015401c16bdc$9ab00a90$de2c67cb@helpdesk> References: <015401c16bdc$9ab00a90$de2c67cb@helpdesk> Message-ID: > > /join #classiccmp in IRCnet > >Got a listing of their servers? Actually, any IRC program you're likely to use, such as Mirc under WIndows, AMirc on the Amiga, or Ircle on the Mac, will include a full list of IRC servers for IRCnet, EFnet, DALnet and others. Jeff -- Home of the TRS-80 Model 2000 FAQ File http://www.cchaven.com http://www.geocities.com/siliconvalley/lakes/6757 From optimus at canit.se Mon Nov 12 19:23:27 2001 From: optimus at canit.se (Iggy Drougge) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:11:02 2005 Subject: New acquisitions: Suns, room In-Reply-To: <20011112163959.92739.qmail@web20101.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <515.717T1350T1434491optimus@canit.se> Ethan Dicks skrev: >Well, amidst all this Sun3 stuff, does anyone have a Type3 keyboard to >spare? I have lots of Type4s and Type5s and I was contemplating >manufacturing a DA15<->DIN-8 keyboard converter, but I'd rather have >the real thing (I do have an RJ-11 mouse already). Is that the same mouse as for DesqView or whatever that old Visicorp-made PC GUI system was made? I've got such a mouse, made by Mouse Systems in the old three-button SUN style and with an RJ11 connector? -- En ligne avec Thor 2.6a. From optimus at canit.se Mon Nov 12 19:27:28 2001 From: optimus at canit.se (Iggy Drougge) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:11:02 2005 Subject: New acquisitions: Suns, room In-Reply-To: <15343.65178.964351.444933@phaduka.neurotica.com> Message-ID: <944.717T1400T1475233optimus@canit.se> Dave McGuire skrev: >On November 12, Iggy Drougge wrote: >> >> Well, I won't totally eliminate the possibility, but I think I'm going >> >> to have somewhat different criteria from now on. So... does anyone here >> >> know any single, female, pretty, smart computer geeks/nerds, someone >> >> that would think of "writing a compiler" as spending time together? >> >> >Funny, my checklist reads remarkably similar. >> >> It would be a wonderful world if more computer geeks were homosexual. > I think it would be an even more wonderful world if people could be >comfortable enough with their sexual orientation (whatever it may be) >to not have to drag it into EVERY UNRELATED CONVERSATION! Just for the record, I'm heterosexual. I just think it's a waste of resources to have all those men without partners in one place, and remarkably few women. Heterosexuality just isn't a good strategy in such a position. -- En ligne avec Thor 2.6a. From cube1 at home.com Mon Nov 12 20:23:09 2001 From: cube1 at home.com (Jay Jaeger) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:11:02 2005 Subject: H7140 PDP 11/24 Power Supply Advice In-Reply-To: References: <4.3.2.7.2.20011112172518.03ca6e58@cirithi> Message-ID: <4.3.2.7.2.20011112200334.03c960e0@cirithi> At 12:12 AM 11/13/2001 +0000, you wrote: > > Now, off to find a replacement (it is a 3 lead jobber, the normal to axial > > leads, plus an extra radial (-) lead from the top of the can -- perhaps > for > >I don't think there's anything particularly critical about it. I'd use >one of those SMPSU-rated capacitors (sold for TV repairs, etc). I'd >probably fit a 105C one as well, to save having to do the job very often. Let's see... SMPSU, as in Switching Mode Power Supply Unit? 105C as in temperature rating? In the process of looking up those, I found an interesting reference: http://www.repairfaq.org/REPAIR/F_captest.html >The value doesn't seem to be that critical. 100uF should be fine if >that's all you can get. Hee hee. That is exactly what the temporarily replacement is. (But it certainly isn't rated for use in switching supplies, and certainly not marked as 105C). >(As an aside, I am still attmpting to work out why HP fitted both 5400uF >and 6000uF smoothing caps on the same board (the former for the -ve >supply, the latter for the +ve supply). There was ample space to use >6000uF caps for both.) > >-tony If they expected to make a lot of them, every penny counts. Kind of like saving weight ounce by ounce on an airplane that weighs tons. Or, maybe their supplier couldn't get enough of one or the other. Or maybe they both started out 5400uF, then they found that one of the supplies needed 6000uF for some reason, but they only made the change once. Or, more likely, it shall forever be a mystery. Jay --- Jay R. Jaeger The Computer Collection cube1@home.com visit http://members.home.net/thecomputercollection From a.vincent at latrobe.edu.au Mon Nov 12 20:37:29 2001 From: a.vincent at latrobe.edu.au (Andrew Vincent) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:11:02 2005 Subject: RS/6000 keyboard Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20011113133356.03114a60@pop.latrobe.edu.au> Dear All, Can anyone provide me with any leads on a second hand keyboard for a RS/6000 PowerServer 520H (7013) (part no. 1394540 or 1395985), preferably a cheap one located in Australia. Cheers Andrew ------------------------------------------------------------- Andrew Vincent Research Information Systems Officer Research and Graduate Studies Office La Trobe University Bundoora, 3083 Australia +61 3 9479 1581 (voice) +61 3 9479 1464 (fax) web: www.latrobe.edu.au/rgso ------------------------------------------------------------- -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20011113/66061772/attachment.html From CLASSICCMP at enterprise.trailing-edge.com Mon Nov 12 20:54:18 2001 From: CLASSICCMP at enterprise.trailing-edge.com (CLASSICCMP@enterprise.trailing-edge.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:11:02 2005 Subject: Lifting stuff into racks Message-ID: <011112215418.20200e87@enterprise.trailing-edge.com> For heavy things that *have* to be at the top of a 6-foot rack (like a front-loading tape drive), my recipe is: 1. Put the rack down on its side. 2. Put the tape drive down on its side, on top of some blocks of wood to align the holes with the rack. 3. Put similar-height blocks of wood in the rack. 4. Slide tape drive into rack, bolt it in. 5. Tilt rack up. Admittedly, step #5 there may not be easy, but at least as the rack stands more straight up you do less *lifting* and more *pushing*. Incredibly important thing when doing #5: make sure the rack isn't going to roll out away from you as you stand it up! Tim. From cmurillo at emtelsa.multi.net.co Mon Nov 12 21:10:50 2001 From: cmurillo at emtelsa.multi.net.co (Carlos Murillo) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:11:02 2005 Subject: VAX (Was: Cromemco landmarks) In-Reply-To: <000c01c16b7c$d56705e0$6b7b7b7b@ajp> Message-ID: <3.0.2.32.20011112221050.00f78a8c@obregon.multi.net.co> At 08:20 AM 11/12/01 -0500, you wrote: >Carlos, > >Both have the FPU. It was optional only in the sense that it was not >required for a minimal cpu. > >Allison > >-----Original Message----- >From: Carlos Murillo >>Aha! So, if I were doing numerical linear algebra in a uVaxII w/o the >optional >>FPU, I could expect performance to be badly hit with respect to the 0.9 VUP >>rating. >>How do I know if my Vaxstation 2000 has the optional FPU? What is >>its model number? >> >>What about the Vaxstation 4000/60? Does it have a built-in FPU? Thanks Allison! That's one more reason not to put off the task of burning the ROMs with the p2k driver modifications for my vaxstation 2000. I am sure it will be slow, running vms 5.5 with just 6MB, but what the heck--I won't care. I really want that machine up again. carlos. -------------------------------------------------------------- Carlos E. Murillo-Sanchez carlos_murillo@nospammers.ieee.org From paul at orchard.wccnet.org Mon Nov 12 21:22:11 2001 From: paul at orchard.wccnet.org (Paul R. Santa-Maria) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:11:02 2005 Subject: FORTH for TRS Model 100 Message-ID: I have AMPI (Amerifcan Micro Products, Inc.) FORTH with plastic case, manual, and cassette tape (condition unknown) for the TRS Model 100. Can anyone use this? Paul R. Santa-Maria Monroe, Michigan USA From allain at panix.com Mon Nov 12 21:29:00 2001 From: allain at panix.com (John Allain) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:11:02 2005 Subject: Lifting stuff into racks References: <20011112163002.63298.qmail@web20103.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <012b01c16bf3$7324c8a0$21fe54a6@ibm23xhr06> > I could do an RA-81 by myself. If I absolutely had to, I'd probably find > a table that was nearly the same height, but a wee bit shorter, then > shim it up on lumber or something similar until the rails lined up, then > extend the rails and fasten it on from there. -- Ethan Dicks Yeah, that's the way. I have my solitary rack on 4 heavy duty casters so it can be positioned near the heavy item very easily, even though the rack outweighs it by over 300 lb. Glad I did this, works great. If you must have heavy lifting equipment, I'd reccomend Harbor Freight, Their prices are about 1/2 what they are all too often in other catalogs. P.S. everybody in Silly Valley should use the muscular friends method since all it involves is a 15 mile drive or so. Sure beats going to Rochester. John A. From dan at ekoan.com Mon Nov 12 22:12:56 2001 From: dan at ekoan.com (Dan Veeneman) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:11:02 2005 Subject: FORTH for TRS Model 100 In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20011112231228.03ab7ec0@enigma> At 10:22 PM 11/12/01 -0500, you wrote: >I have AMPI (Amerifcan Micro Products, Inc.) FORTH with plastic case, >manual, and cassette tape (condition unknown) for the TRS Model 100. >Can anyone use this? I could! Cheers, Dan From dittman at dittman.net Mon Nov 12 22:22:57 2001 From: dittman at dittman.net (Eric Dittman) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:11:02 2005 Subject: Lifting stuff into racks In-Reply-To: <012b01c16bf3$7324c8a0$21fe54a6@ibm23xhr06> from "John Allain" at Nov 12, 2001 10:29:00 PM Message-ID: <200111130422.fAD4Mvj24532@narnia.int.dittman.net> > Yeah, that's the way. I have my solitary rack on 4 heavy duty casters > so it can be positioned near the heavy item very easily, even though > the rack outweighs it by over 300 lb. Glad I did this, works great. At a place I used to work we had a dual-BA23 MVII with two Eagle drives, a Kennedy 9-track tape drive, and two large Ungermann-Bass rack-mount units. Everything was in two racks bolted together on heavy duty casters. All that was in one of the racks was the two UB units (we used the bottom for storage, so to make maintaining them easier I removed them and unbolted the racks. The empty rack was sometimes used as an inpromptu moving cart for rackable items. It was also used for fun, racing around the raised floor. :-) -- Eric Dittman dittman@dittman.net Check out the DEC Enthusiasts Club at http://www.dittman.net/ From geoffrob at stmarks.pp.catholic.edu.au Mon Nov 12 23:00:49 2001 From: geoffrob at stmarks.pp.catholic.edu.au (Geoff Roberts) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:11:02 2005 Subject: IRC channel? References: <015401c16bdc$9ab00a90$de2c67cb@helpdesk> Message-ID: <01c801c16c00$2a214db0$de2c67cb@helpdesk> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jeff Hellige" To: Sent: Tuesday, November 13, 2001 11:37 AM Subject: Re: IRC channel? > > > /join #classiccmp in IRCnet > > > >Got a listing of their servers? > > Actually, any IRC program you're likely to use, such as Mirc > under WIndows, AMirc on the Amiga, or Ircle on the Mac, will include > a full list of IRC servers for IRCnet, EFnet, DALnet and others. Well I'm going to be using ircdough on a Vax 6440/VT320 and it doesn't not surprisingly. Very surprisingly my latest download of Pirch has those you mention EXCEPT ircnet. Cheers Geoff Roberts Computer Systems Manager Saint Mark's College Port Pirie, South Australia geoffrob@stmarks.pp.catholic.edu.au ICQ 1970476 From jss at subatomix.com Mon Nov 12 23:38:44 2001 From: jss at subatomix.com (Jeffrey S. Sharp) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:11:02 2005 Subject: H7140 PDP 11/24 Power Supply Advice In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.2.20011112172518.03ca6e58@cirithi> Message-ID: <20011112233742.H5603-100000@lepton.subatomix.com> On Mon, 12 Nov 2001, Jay Jaeger wrote: > Tony, you get the "superhero" rating in my book. With minimal > description on my part, you pegged the failure spot on. Gads, you guys are so cool. I've got to move electronics up in priority in my List of Things to Learn. -- Jeffrey S. Sharp jss@subatomix.com From jss at subatomix.com Mon Nov 12 23:50:37 2001 From: jss at subatomix.com (Jeffrey S. Sharp) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:11:02 2005 Subject: IRC channel? In-Reply-To: <015401c16bdc$9ab00a90$de2c67cb@helpdesk> Message-ID: <20011112234846.W5603-100000@lepton.subatomix.com> On Tue, 13 Nov 2001, Geoff Roberts wrote: > From: "Hans H?bner" > > > On Mon, 12 Nov 2001, Gary Hildebrand wrote: > > > > > "Jeffrey S. Sharp" wrote: > > > > > > > Is there an IRC channel frequented by retrocomputing types? > > > > > > If there isn't there should be . . . > > > > /join #classiccmp in IRCnet > > Got a listing of their servers? Try http://www.ircnet.net/ . -- Jeffrey S. Sharp jss@subatomix.com From jss at subatomix.com Mon Nov 12 23:59:41 2001 From: jss at subatomix.com (Jeffrey S. Sharp) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:11:02 2005 Subject: IRC channel? In-Reply-To: <01c801c16c00$2a214db0$de2c67cb@helpdesk> Message-ID: <20011112235548.K5603-100000@lepton.subatomix.com> On Tue, 13 Nov 2001, Geoff Roberts wrote: > Very surprisingly my latest download of Pirch ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ Pirch hasn't been updated in a while it seems. I think I heard somewhere that the program's maintainer died. I'm not sure, though. -- Jeffrey S. Sharp jss@subatomix.com From jss at subatomix.com Tue Nov 13 00:01:43 2001 From: jss at subatomix.com (Jeffrey S. Sharp) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:11:02 2005 Subject: Lifting stuff into racks In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20011112234217.W5603-100000@lepton.subatomix.com> On Mon, 12 Nov 2001, Tony Duell wrote: > You're going to want to remove these parts for the visual inspection > so it's not any more work to do it this way. Bam! I'm now enlightened. Thanks, all, for the information. I think that Tony is the winner here, and, at least for stuff that yields easily to (dis|re)assembly, that it is the answer I was seeking. -- Jeffrey S. Sharp jss@subatomix.com From geoffrob at stmarks.pp.catholic.edu.au Tue Nov 13 01:04:09 2001 From: geoffrob at stmarks.pp.catholic.edu.au (Geoff Roberts) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:11:02 2005 Subject: IRC channel? References: <20011112234846.W5603-100000@lepton.subatomix.com> Message-ID: <03c201c16c11$65279020$de2c67cb@helpdesk> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jeffrey S. Sharp" To: Sent: Tuesday, November 13, 2001 4:20 PM Subject: Re: IRC channel? > Try http://www.ircnet.net/ . Yeah went there found that already. Downloaded latest mirc from there, unfortunately, every single server I try and connect to spits me out with an "Unauthorised connection" message. Apparently they only allow logins from their neck of the woods, and 98% of the flaming IRCnet networks seems to be in Europe, and there isn't one within a couple thousand miles of me. Any chance the channel ops might shift to a more globally accessible network? This seems to be Europe only. The US servers are alleged to allow others in, but they seem to be down. Mirc has now tried 41 ircnet servers, with either a timeout or the "Unauthorised Connection" BS. Cheers Geoff Roberts Computer Systems Manager Saint Mark's College Port Pirie, South Australia geoffrob@stmarks.pp.catholic.edu.au ICQ 1970476 From enrico.badella at softstar.it Tue Nov 13 02:23:40 2001 From: enrico.badella at softstar.it (Enrico Badella) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:11:02 2005 Subject: RS/6000 keyboard References: <5.1.0.14.0.20011113133356.03114a60@pop.latrobe.edu.au> Message-ID: <3BF0D88C.5746EBF0@softstar.it> Andrew Vincent wrote: > > Dear All, > > Can anyone provide me with any leads on a second hand keyboard for a RS/6000 > PowerServer 520H (7013) (part no. 1394540 or 1395985), preferably a cheap one If you are using AIX 4.2.x you can just pop in a standard PC keyboard. I know it doesn?t have the nice touch as the real ones... I had to adapt using these keyboards with my 59H, 530H and 320H By the way, does anybody know where I could find some meory boards for a 59H, preferably in Europe TIA e. ======================================================================== Enrico Badella email: enrico.badella@softstar.it Soft*Star srl eb@vax.cnuce.cnr.it InterNetworking Specialists tel: +39-011-746092 Via Camburzano 9 fax: +39-011-746487 10143 Torino, Italy Wanted, for hobbyist use, any type of PDP and microVAX hardware,software, manuals,schematics,etc. and DEC-10 docs or manuals ========================================================================== From mhstein at usa.net Tue Nov 13 01:25:27 2001 From: mhstein at usa.net (M H Stein) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:11:02 2005 Subject: Xenix ? Message-ID: <01C16BF8.1F9B08C0@mse-d03> -----------Original Message---------- Date: Sun, 11 Nov 2001 20:45:49 -0700 From: Ben Franchuk Subject: Re: Xenix ? Don Maslin wrote: > Somehow, I am inclined to question if there was a Z-80 version of Xenix > and, if not, then there was none for the Model II. The only OS that came close to Unix for 8 bit micros was OS/9 for the 6809 and ---------------------------------------------------------- Don't forget Z80 Cromix... mike From hans at Huebner.ORG Tue Nov 13 03:09:20 2001 From: hans at Huebner.ORG (=?ISO-8859-1?Q?Hans_H=FCbner?=) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:11:02 2005 Subject: IRC channel? In-Reply-To: <03c201c16c11$65279020$de2c67cb@helpdesk> Message-ID: On Tue, 13 Nov 2001, Geoff Roberts wrote: > [...] 98% of the flaming IRCnet networks seems to be in Europe, and there > isn't one within a couple thousand miles of me. Any chance the channel > ops might shift to a more globally accessible network? IRCnet seems to have servers in many countries around the globe. As you're from Australia, you will want to connect to one of the servers on your continent. http://www.ludd.luth.se/irc/servers.html is a list grouped by top-level domain, http://w4u.eexi.gr/~shadow/irc/servers/ircnet.html is grouped by country. Cheers, Hans From optimus at canit.se Tue Nov 13 03:33:45 2001 From: optimus at canit.se (Iggy Drougge) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:11:02 2005 Subject: IRC channel? In-Reply-To: <03c201c16c11$65279020$de2c67cb@helpdesk> Message-ID: <932.717T2250T6336035optimus@canit.se> Geoff Roberts skrev: >> Try http://www.ircnet.net/ . > Yeah went there found that already. Downloaded latest mirc from there, >unfortunately, every single server I try and connect to spits me out with an >"Unauthorised connection" message. Apparently they only allow logins from >their neck of the woods, and 98% of the flaming IRCnet networks seems to be >in Europe, and there isn't one within a couple thousand miles of me. Any >chance the channel ops might shift to a more globally accessible network? >This seems to be Europe only. The US servers are alleged to allow others >in, but they seem to be down. >Mirc has now tried 41 ircnet servers, with either a timeout or the >"Unauthorised Connection" BS. ISTR that there was a schism on one of the older nets, which either led to a collapse in the US, or the net was split, IRCnet being the European part. That might explain your problems. -- En ligne avec Thor 2.6a. From vcf at vintage.org Tue Nov 13 03:52:31 2001 From: vcf at vintage.org (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:11:02 2005 Subject: Burroughs B220 manual scan needs a host Message-ID: Can anyone provide hosting for a scan of a Burroughs B220 manual for Eric? Please reply to him directly. Reply-to: wd6cmu@earthlink.net ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Thu, 08 Nov 2001 10:45:19 -0800 From: Eric Williams To: Vintage Computer Festival Subject: Burroughs B220 Sellam, I've recently scanned in my copy of the operations manual for a Burroughs B220, circa 1957. Do you know of an appropriate web site that might like to archive it for public access? Thanks! -- eric -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org * Old computing resources for business and academia at www.VintageTech.com * From vance at ikickass.org Tue Nov 13 04:32:39 2001 From: vance at ikickass.org (One Without Reason) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:11:02 2005 Subject: Xenix ? In-Reply-To: <01C16BF8.1F9B08C0@mse-d03> Message-ID: On Tue, 13 Nov 2001, M H Stein wrote: > -----------Original Message---------- > Date: Sun, 11 Nov 2001 20:45:49 -0700 > From: Ben Franchuk > Subject: Re: Xenix ? > > Don Maslin wrote: > > Somehow, I am inclined to question if there was a Z-80 version of Xenix > > and, if not, then there was none for the Model II. > > The only OS that came close to Unix for 8 bit micros was OS/9 for the > 6809 and > > ---------------------------------------------------------- > Don't forget Z80 Cromix... And ELKS, and MINIX. Peace... Sridhar From matt at knm.yi.org Tue Nov 13 05:45:16 2001 From: matt at knm.yi.org (Matt London) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:11:02 2005 Subject: SMD Hard Disks Message-ID: Hi, As you may have noticed - I got a MicroVAX II at the weekend, and I've been playing. I've not yet built a console cable, but that's on the way :&) Anyway - as the cables were damaged beyond repair before it arrived (a 2' length is missing from the middle) I'd like to know what's needed to hook up these SMD drives (apparently M2372K and M2351AO - but I've not checked that yet) to the Emulex QD32 controller I have :&) This is my first encounter with SMD, and I'm quite fascinated :&) If I can get it to access the HDD's, I'm well on the way to a working system :&) All I need then is an ethernet card :&) -- Matt --- E-mail: matt@pkl.net, matt@knm.yi.org, matt@printf.net matt@m-techdiagnostics.ltd.uk, matthew.london@stud.umist.ac.uk mattl@vcd.student.utwente.nl, mlondon@mail.talk-101.com Web Page: http://knm.yi.org/ http://pkl.net/~matt/ PGP Key fingerprint = 00BF 19FE D5F5 8EAD 2FD5 D102 260E 8BA7 EEE4 8D7F PGP Key http://knm.yi.org/matt-pgp.html From LFessen106 at aol.com Tue Nov 13 06:48:41 2001 From: LFessen106 at aol.com (LFessen106@aol.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:11:02 2005 Subject: IRC channel? Message-ID: <11e.74d3566.292270a9@aol.com> irc.stealth.net irc.funet.fi flute.telstra.net.au irc.uni-erlangen.de irc.leo.org irc.webbernet.net are a few you can try.... -Linc Fessenden In The Beginning there was nothing, which exploded - Yeah right... Calculating in binary code is as easy as 01,10,11. From jhellige at earthlink.net Tue Nov 13 06:19:57 2001 From: jhellige at earthlink.net (Jeff Hellige) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:11:02 2005 Subject: IRC channel? In-Reply-To: <932.717T2250T6336035optimus@canit.se> References: <932.717T2250T6336035optimus@canit.se> Message-ID: <01Nov13.083056est.119079@gateway.mediacen.navy.mil> >ISTR that there was a schism on one of the older nets, which either led to a >collapse in the US, or the net was split, IRCnet being the European part. >That might explain your problems. Of course, anyone that uses IRC regularly knows that the net NEVER splits! Jeff -- Home of the TRS-80 Model 2000 FAQ File http://www.cchaven.com http://www.geocities.com/siliconvalley/lakes/6757 From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Tue Nov 13 07:36:06 2001 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (Allison) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:11:02 2005 Subject: Xenix ? Message-ID: <003801c16c48$26e56ee0$6b7b7b7b@ajp> Lest you'all forget there is Uzi unix, a BSD styled kernal. Allison -----Original Message----- From: M H Stein To: 'ClassicComputers' Date: Tuesday, November 13, 2001 5:26 AM Subject: Xenix ? >-----------Original Message---------- >Date: Sun, 11 Nov 2001 20:45:49 -0700 >From: Ben Franchuk >Subject: Re: Xenix ? > >Don Maslin wrote: >> Somehow, I am inclined to question if there was a Z-80 version of Xenix >> and, if not, then there was none for the Model II. > >The only OS that came close to Unix for 8 bit micros was OS/9 for the >6809 and > >---------------------------------------------------------- >Don't forget Z80 Cromix... > >mike > From jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de Tue Nov 13 08:12:26 2001 From: jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de (Jochen Kunz) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:11:02 2005 Subject: SMD Hard Disks In-Reply-To: from Matt London at "Nov 13, 2001 11:45:16 am" Message-ID: <200111131412.PAA30030@maja.unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> Hi. > Anyway - as the cables were damaged beyond repair before it arrived (a > 2' length is missing from the middle) I'd like to know what's needed to > hook up these SMD drives (apparently M2372K and M2351AO - but I've not > checked that yet) to the Emulex QD32 controller I have :&) You need a 60 pin flat ribbon cable that goes to the drives in a bus topology with the last dive terminated. (Much like SCSI) Then you need a separate 24 (26?) pin flat ribbon cable per drive from the controller to each drive. Should be easy to get the components and crimp the cables. I have the manual for the QD32 / QD33. If you can not find scans of the manual, let me know... -- tschüß, Jochen Homepage: http://www.unixag-kl.fh-kl.de/~jkunz/ From dbetz at xlisper.mv.com Tue Nov 13 08:20:32 2001 From: dbetz at xlisper.mv.com (David Betz) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:11:02 2005 Subject: Money order for the SE/30? In-Reply-To: <9011A52E011ED311B4280004AC1BA6150146722C@yalepress3.unipress.yale.edu> Message-ID: <200111131421.fADELEk28576@chmls05.mediaone.net> Did you ever receive my money order for the Macintosh SE/30? From dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com Tue Nov 13 08:40:01 2001 From: dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com (Douglas Quebbeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:11:02 2005 Subject: Xenix ? Message-ID: <7A9BACCEF0171D4FB77019F5104CDD372258D3@jeffserver.tegjeff.com> > > On 12-Nov-2001 UberTechnoid@home.com wrote: > > > As far as open architecture, ISA was very well documented and noone > > > needed to pay IBM to use the buss. MCA was a different story. The PC > > > wasn't an open architecture, but the effects were something of the > > > same. Heck there are ISA slots on Amigas, Ataris, etc..... > > > > My MIPScomputer M/120 has ISA slots. Being big endian, it has to do some > > fun things with byte and word swapping different parts of the IO space. > > > > AFAIK Apollos (before they were bought by HP) used ISA with most of their > M68K machines. I think they also used ISA with their risc DN10K boxen. After, too (at least in the case of the 425t). -dq From dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com Tue Nov 13 08:49:08 2001 From: dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com (Douglas Quebbeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:11:02 2005 Subject: Fw: Control Data Cyber 960 rescue interest? Message-ID: <7A9BACCEF0171D4FB77019F5104CDD372258D4@jeffserver.tegjeff.com> Forwarded from COMP.SYS.CDC; please direct replies to the original poster... -doug q "James B. DiGriz" wrote in message news:<9spg2t$qia$1@ns2.i16.net>... > A source tells me the current plan is to sell the UGA Cyber 960 being > decommissioned in Athens, for scrap. Anybody here interested in trying to > save it? Hate to see it scrapped. There can't be that many of them left. > > The University System doesn't dispose of surplus property itself in the > State of Georgia. This is handled by the Department of Administrative > Services. Normally, if no qualifying org. or local govt. puts in for it, > it goes to periodic auctions in Atlanta, Albany ( I think), and > Swainsboro. The last is about an hour's drive from me. > > A non-profit museum, educational org, or research inst. stands the only > realistic chance of getting hold of this kind of stuff before it's > dismembered, manuals and software lost, and scattered out to scrap > auctions. It's highly doubtful it'd be sold as a complete system, but I > could be wrong, so I'm looking into the possibility of setting something > up, or finding an existing party which qualifies, preferably in the state, > or at least the Southeast. Let me know if you're interested in putting > heads together on this. > > Thanks, > jbdigriz From dbetz at xlisper.mv.com Tue Nov 13 09:11:02 2001 From: dbetz at xlisper.mv.com (David Betz) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:11:02 2005 Subject: Money order for the SE/30? In-Reply-To: <200111131421.fADELEk28576@chmls05.mediaone.net> Message-ID: <200111131512.fADFCP804847@chmls06.mediaone.net> Oops. Sorry about this message. I meant to send it as private email. On Tuesday, November 13, 2001, at 09:20 AM, David Betz wrote: > Did you ever receive my money order for the Macintosh SE/30? > From jpl15 at panix.com Tue Nov 13 09:17:59 2001 From: jpl15 at panix.com (John Lawson) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:11:02 2005 Subject: Money order for the SE/30? In-Reply-To: <200111131421.fADELEk28576@chmls05.mediaone.net> Message-ID: On Tue, 13 Nov 2001, David Betz wrote: > Did you ever receive my money order for the Macintosh SE/30? > No, and I really could use that $5,000.00 right now... holidays coming up, y'know. Remember that I'll throw in the original CRT *and* the actual HD out of it, all for just another $3,500.00. E-mail me off-list and I'll give you my bank info for wire transfer. You still interested in the Lisa manual for $800??? Lemme know. Cheers John {{}||p|p{{))\\pq||}} NO CARRIER From mcguire at neurotica.com Tue Nov 13 09:36:34 2001 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:11:02 2005 Subject: Money order for the SE/30? In-Reply-To: Re: Money order for the SE/30? (John Lawson) References: <200111131421.fADELEk28576@chmls05.mediaone.net> Message-ID: <15345.15874.738214.655367@phaduka.neurotica.com> On November 13, John Lawson wrote: > > Did you ever receive my money order for the Macintosh SE/30? > > No, and I really could use that $5,000.00 right now... holidays coming > up, y'know. > > Remember that I'll throw in the original CRT *and* the actual HD out of > it, all for just another $3,500.00. > > E-mail me off-list and I'll give you my bank info for wire transfer. > > You still interested in the Lisa manual for $800??? > > Lemme know. You're a bad, bad man. ;) -Dave -- Dave McGuire St. Petersburg, FL From james at cs.york.ac.uk Tue Nov 13 10:00:14 2001 From: james at cs.york.ac.uk (James Carter) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:11:02 2005 Subject: la120 (decwriter iii) spares (uk) Message-ID: we've recently decommisioned a couple of la120's at work. unfortunately, the drive mechanics and motors have been pinched for a robotics project, but the rest is sitting in a corridor waiting for a skip to pass. does anyone have any use for the remaining bits? both units were in working order, so the power supplies and logic boards should be fine. -- J.F.Carter http://www.jfc.org.uk/ From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Tue Nov 13 10:43:22 2001 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (Ben Franchuk) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:11:02 2005 Subject: Xenix ? References: Message-ID: <3BF14DAA.3B4C4CAF@jetnet.ab.ca> One Without Reason wrote: > > On Tue, 13 Nov 2001, M H Stein wrote: > > > -----------Original Message---------- > > Date: Sun, 11 Nov 2001 20:45:49 -0700 > > From: Ben Franchuk > > Subject: Re: Xenix ? > > > > Don Maslin wrote: > > > Somehow, I am inclined to question if there was a Z-80 version of Xenix > > > and, if not, then there was none for the Model II. > > > > The only OS that came close to Unix for 8 bit micros was OS/9 for the > > 6809 and > > > > ---------------------------------------------------------- > > Don't forget Z80 Cromix... > > And ELKS, and MINIX. While it is true the 8086/8088 is really only a 8 bit cpu, 6502,68xx,8080 and the z80 are the only chips from the 8 bit era that only had real popularity. None of the microcomputer manufactures come out with a low cost cpu. ELKS and MINIX also are not completely open source OS's in that some features like self compilation and C Compiler sources are not available. ( OT- Still looking for C Compiler I can port for a 12/24 bit micro I am developing other than small C ver 1). Unix programs have long since moved from the 64kb code/data segments of the PDP-11. (Try and fit your favorite web browser in 8 meg or less) > Peace... Sridhar Ben Franchuk. -- Live "Pre-historic Cpu's" -- and you thought they were extinct. www.jetnet.ab.ca/users/bfranchuk/index.html From korpela at ssl.berkeley.edu Tue Nov 13 10:52:40 2001 From: korpela at ssl.berkeley.edu (Eric J. Korpela) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:11:02 2005 Subject: Xenix ? In-Reply-To: from "Francis. Javier Mesa" at "Nov 11, 2001 01:32:16 pm" Message-ID: <200111131652.IAA24612@ellie.ssl.berkeley.edu> > Actually Xenix was never a Microsoft branded product. Maybe true, but it was certainly plastered with Microsoft copyrights. All the scripts and headers in the Tandy 16/6000 version were copyright Microsoft. > Then again Xenix was the clear proof that M$ can not even compy a great OS > correctly. I remember using a version of Xenix that only allowed 8.3 > naming of files (like M$-DOS)! Typical M$ "innovation"... pheb! I doubt it. I think early versions of Xenix had the v7 filename limits. I've never seen one that recognized extensions as anything special. Eric From korpela at ssl.berkeley.edu Tue Nov 13 11:23:29 2001 From: korpela at ssl.berkeley.edu (Eric J. Korpela) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:11:02 2005 Subject: hard-sector 5 1/4 disk In-Reply-To: <003301c16a71$32157400$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> from Richard Erlacher at "Nov 10, 2001 10:24:54 pm" Message-ID: <200111131723.JAA25231@ellie.ssl.berkeley.edu> > If Sellam insists, then we can agree to disagree, since I don't think much of > the Apple][, not back in the early days of microcomputers, and certainly not > now, when we can all thank our lucky starts that we have better tools to use. On the other hand, I love Apple ][s. I spent much of my younger days with them. I have a fairly reasonable collection of ][ series and clones. I spend more time with my ][s than with any other of my systems. I love 'em. Yet, I'm not joining Sellam in insisting that the Disk ][ system was the best thing on the market. Then again, I don't join my fellow Apple ][ collectors in claiming that the 6502 was the best processor on the market either. Like all religions, the true believers will always shout down the heretics. What the Apple ][ was (including the Disk ][ system) is an example of what a great hacker can do with limited resources. It wasn't the fastest machine. It didn't have the best graphics. It didn't have the best disk subsystem. It had a positively crappy DOS. But it was an incredible hack. Maybe the best I've ever seen. Eric From zmerch at 30below.com Tue Nov 13 11:48:56 2001 From: zmerch at 30below.com (Roger Merchberger) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:11:02 2005 Subject: FORTH for TRS Model 100 In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20011113124544.00ac9cf8@mail.30below.com> Rumor has it that Paul R. Santa-Maria may have mentioned these words: >I have AMPI (Amerifcan Micro Products, Inc.) FORTH with plastic case, >manual, and cassette tape (condition unknown) for the TRS Model 100. >Can anyone use this? > >Paul R. Santa-Maria >Monroe, Michigan USA Do you have any way of making a copy of this - for archival purposes? Rick Hanson of Club 100 might be intersted in archiving this for history's sake - he's been in the business of selling/supporting/refurbishing Model 100/102/200's since 1983. He can be contacted at rick@the-dock.com, and his website is: http://www.the-dock.com/club100.html -- and coming soon: http://www.club100.org/ Thanks! Roger "Merch" Merchberger From dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com Tue Nov 13 11:53:27 2001 From: dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com (Douglas Quebbeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:11:02 2005 Subject: Xenix ? Message-ID: <7A9BACCEF0171D4FB77019F5104CDD372258DE@jeffserver.tegjeff.com> > While it is true the 8086/8088 is really only a 8 bit cpu, No, the 8086 is a 16-bit cpu with a 16-bit data path; the 8088 otoh is a 16-bit CPU with an 8-bit datapath (or a 16-bit multiplexed data path, if you prefer). Regards, -dq From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Tue Nov 13 12:35:25 2001 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (Allison) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:11:02 2005 Subject: Xenix ? Message-ID: <000601c16c71$f740ae00$6b7b7b7b@ajp> From: Douglas Quebbeman >> While it is true the 8086/8088 is really only a 8 bit cpu, > >No, the 8086 is a 16-bit cpu with a 16-bit data path; the 8088 >otoh is a 16-bit CPU with an 8-bit datapath (or a 16-bit multiplexed >data path, if you prefer). I'd rephrase the latter as: The 8088 has the same 16-bit core CPU as 8086 with an 8-bit wide _external_ datapath. Whats important about the 8088 is it was the first(or one of the first) to seperate the CPU core (control, alu and registers) from the bus interface. Then again you have Z280, an 8bit cpu with an 16bit wide external data path. Hows that for a switch? Allison From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Tue Nov 13 12:37:51 2001 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (Ben Franchuk) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:11:02 2005 Subject: Xenix ? References: <7A9BACCEF0171D4FB77019F5104CDD372258DE@jeffserver.tegjeff.com> Message-ID: <3BF1687F.6E4E20BE@jetnet.ab.ca> Douglas Quebbeman wrote: > > > While it is true the 8086/8088 is really only a 8 bit cpu, > > No, the 8086 is a 16-bit cpu with a 16-bit data path; the 8088 > otoh is a 16-bit CPU with an 8-bit datapath (or a 16-bit multiplexed > data path, if you prefer). You have not tried to program it have you? There are too many limitations that catch you off guard. The 6809 is a better 16 bit processor than the intel product. Just what a 16 bit cpu is a gray area other than 8080,6502,1802 are 8 bits and the PDP-11 is 16 bit cpu. Ben Franchuk. -- Live "Pre-historic Cpu's" -- and you thought they were extinct. www.jetnet.ab.ca/users/bfranchuk/index.html From tony.eros at machm.org Tue Nov 13 12:55:00 2001 From: tony.eros at machm.org (Tony Eros) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:11:02 2005 Subject: Fw: Control Data Cyber 960 rescue interest? In-Reply-To: <7A9BACCEF0171D4FB77019F5104CDD372258D4@jeffserver.tegjeff. com> Message-ID: <5.0.2.1.0.20011113135151.026a7990@mail.njd.concentric.com> Hmm... Any chance that it runs PLATO? I'd be happy to help with a coordinated rescue. I live in Delaware, but have been doing some weekly travel to Atlanta to work on a project. - Tony At 09:49 AM 11/13/2001 -0500, you wrote: >Forwarded from COMP.SYS.CDC; please direct replies to the >original poster... -doug q > >"James B. DiGriz" wrote in message >news:<9spg2t$qia$1@ns2.i16.net>... > > A source tells me the current plan is to sell the UGA Cyber 960 being > > decommissioned in Athens, for scrap. Anybody here interested in trying to > > save it? Hate to see it scrapped. There can't be that many of them left. > > > > The University System doesn't dispose of surplus property itself in the > > State of Georgia. This is handled by the Department of Administrative > > Services. Normally, if no qualifying org. or local govt. puts in for it, > > it goes to periodic auctions in Atlanta, Albany ( I think), and > > Swainsboro. The last is about an hour's drive from me. > > > > A non-profit museum, educational org, or research inst. stands the only > > realistic chance of getting hold of this kind of stuff before it's > > dismembered, manuals and software lost, and scattered out to scrap > > auctions. It's highly doubtful it'd be sold as a complete system, but I > > could be wrong, so I'm looking into the possibility of setting something > > up, or finding an existing party which qualifies, preferably in the state, > > or at least the Southeast. Let me know if you're interested in putting > > heads together on this. > > > > Thanks, > > jbdigriz From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Nov 13 13:09:35 2001 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:11:02 2005 Subject: H7140 PDP 11/24 Power Supply Advice In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.2.20011112200334.03c960e0@cirithi> from "Jay Jaeger" at Nov 12, 1 08:23:09 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 2766 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20011113/b8eab112/attachment.ksh From dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com Tue Nov 13 13:26:26 2001 From: dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com (Douglas Quebbeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:11:02 2005 Subject: Xenix ? Message-ID: <7A9BACCEF0171D4FB77019F5104CDD372258E3@jeffserver.tegjeff.com> > Douglas Quebbeman wrote: > > > > > While it is true the 8086/8088 is really only a 8 bit cpu, > > > > No, the 8086 is a 16-bit cpu with a 16-bit data path; the 8088 > > otoh is a 16-bit CPU with an 8-bit datapath (or a 16-bit multiplexed > > data path, if you prefer). > > You have not tried to program it have you? There are too many limitations that > catch you off guard. The 6809 is a better 16 bit processor than the intel product. > Just what a 16 bit cpu is a gray area other than 8080,6502,1802 are 8 bits and the > PDP-11 is 16 bit cpu. I'm not gonna get in a snow-marking match on hours spent under the hood... however you are correct in that it's not a very orthogonal processor, and non-orthanogoanl machines are indeed full of "gotcha"s. Having started with orthogonal machines like the CDC-6600 and IBM 370/158, I found even the 8-bit 8080 a pain to work with, and wrote macros to do all the really important work. I carried that forward to my 8086/8 days, and thus didn't have much in the way of difficulty. I had arithmetic macros for 8, 16, and 32-bit operations, and macros to do conversions between them. I worked briefly with the 6800, and more recently, the 6802, and they are certainly a bit more orthogonal, but still too primitive for my tastes. A Coco running OS/9 might be in my future but I wouldn't spend anything for one, it'd have to be free. As to the distinction, I bow to Allison's better wording. Regards, -dq From pete at dunnington.u-net.com Tue Nov 13 13:44:35 2001 From: pete at dunnington.u-net.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:11:02 2005 Subject: SMD Hard Disks In-Reply-To: Jochen Kunz "Re: SMD Hard Disks" (Nov 13, 15:12) References: <200111131412.PAA30030@maja.unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> Message-ID: <10111131944.ZM10316@mindy.dunnington.u-net.com> On Nov 13, 15:12, Jochen Kunz wrote: > You need a 60 pin flat ribbon cable that goes to the drives in a bus topology > with the last dive terminated. (Much like SCSI) Then you need a separate > 24 (26?) pin flat ribbon cable per drive from the controller to each drive. > Should be easy to get the components and crimp the cables. You might get away with ordinary ribbon cable, which usually has a characteristic impedance around 100-120 ohms, for short distances, but the A cable is really supposed to be 30 twisted pair ribbon cable (one trade name is Twist-n-Flat), characteristic impedance 100 ohms. It's wired pin 1 to pin 1 ... pin 60 to pin 60. The B cable is supposed to be 26-pin flat shielded cable, with a drain wire, characteristic impedance 130 ohms. It's also wired pin-to-pin. The lengths don't matter, as long as they're within the limits: 35 feet for the A cable and 50 feet for the B cables. How useful it is to have the daisy-chain cable shorter than the radial cables, I don't know :-) -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager University of York From foo at siconic.com Tue Nov 13 13:52:29 2001 From: foo at siconic.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:11:02 2005 Subject: Fw: Control Data Cyber 960 rescue interest? In-Reply-To: <7A9BACCEF0171D4FB77019F5104CDD372258D4@jeffserver.tegjeff.com> Message-ID: On Tue, 13 Nov 2001, Douglas Quebbeman wrote: > Forwarded from COMP.SYS.CDC; please direct replies to the > original poster... -doug q The only person I know who might truly be interested in acquiring this beast is John Zabolitzky in Munich, Germany. But he already has one complete system, UP AND RUNNING even. Here's a picture of John at the console demonstrating the machine to a group of us at the last VCF Europa: http://www.siconic.com/crap/John%20Zabolitzky%20Demonstraing%20Cyber%20960%204.jpg Other than he, the only organization that I know would be capable of retrieving and storing this machine is the Computer History Museum here in the Sillycon Valley. Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org From foo at siconic.com Tue Nov 13 14:01:39 2001 From: foo at siconic.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:11:02 2005 Subject: hard-sector 5 1/4 disk In-Reply-To: <200111131723.JAA25231@ellie.ssl.berkeley.edu> Message-ID: On Tue, 13 Nov 2001, Eric J. Korpela wrote: > On the other hand, I love Apple ][s. I spent much of my younger days > with them. I have a fairly reasonable collection of ][ series and > clones. I spend more time with my ][s than with any other of my > systems. I love 'em. Yet, I'm not joining Sellam in insisting that > the Disk ][ system was the best thing on the market. I wasn't trying to insist that they were the best thing on the market, only that Dick's assessment of them is completely wrong and not based on any facts, and I wasn't going to allow his ramblings to taint the knowledge base surrounding them. > Then again, I don't join my fellow Apple ][ collectors in claiming > that the 6502 was the best processor on the market either. Like all > religions, the true believers will always shout down the heretics. You seem to be the only one turning this into a religious debate, for what reason I don't know other than to cause more inflammation. I don't recall anyone making this claim, at least in this latest argument. I'll send you a tube of Preparation H. > What the Apple ][ was (including the Disk ][ system) is an example of > what a great hacker can do with limited resources. It wasn't the > fastest machine. It didn't have the best graphics. It didn't have the > best disk subsystem. It had a positively crappy DOS. But it was an > incredible hack. Maybe the best I've ever seen. A crappy DOS? I'll assume you're referring to DOS 3.2/3.3 since you aren't specific in your ire. For a microcomputer circa 1977, it had a pretty damn decent DOS. Among other many useful things, it could save and load your programs reliably and fairly quickly (even quicker with the numerous DOS hacks). The Apple ][ is a good computer, as evidenced by the fact that it sold millions up into the 1990s. It was only bested by the Commodore 64 in sales. The C64 is also a good machine, having many fine features, and certainly having more built-in sound and graphics capabilities than a stock Apple ][. But I think the only reason it sold more millions of units was because it was priced much lower. Was the Apple ][ the "best" computer? That was then and is now a subjective measure, and to get into such a debate would be pointless and stupid. So, we leave it at that. Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org From cmcmanis at mcmanis.com Tue Nov 13 14:08:31 2001 From: cmcmanis at mcmanis.com (Chuck McManis) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:11:03 2005 Subject: H7140 PDP 11/24 Power Supply Advice In-Reply-To: References: <4.3.2.7.2.20011112200334.03c960e0@cirithi> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20011113115432.00a70500@mcmanis.com> At 11:09 AM 11/13/01, Tony wrote: >I have never understood this arguement, never will. Suppose the >difference (in the quantity they use the caps) is 10 cents per component. >Suppose overall they sell the machine for $1 more as a result. Do they >honestly think they'll sell significantly fewer machines? The argument goes like this: - You sell 5 million units. - Your average selling price is $3500 (some are more some less, depending on channel, sales aggression etc.) - You save $0.10 on a each of 10 capacitors for a costs saving of $1. That is $5 million dollars ($1/unit) that you add to your bottom line. If you've got 5 million shares of stock outstanding that add 1 cent/share to your earnings. If that makes your product fail more often and you have to repair them (warranty etc) then you subtract that cost, but the "argument" for "value engineering" as it is euphemistically referred to, is simply numbers. Well run businesses run exactly like your computers Tony with very similar schematics, however money replaces current and credit replaces voltage. The equivalent argument in electronics could be made with a resistor - You are pumping 5 amps of current - Your circuit has to drop 3.5 volts on average (some more some less depending on control settings) - You add three diodes rather than using a switching regulator. This causes you to dissipate 17.5 watts from the diodes. That's 17.5 watts that goes into heat rather than doing useful work. If the circuit can tolerate the heat then it is simpler than a switching regulator. But it may shorten the life of the circuit. Its a mechanical analytical thing, not a big profit conspiracy as some would have you believe. --Chuck From dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com Tue Nov 13 14:14:24 2001 From: dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com (Douglas Quebbeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:11:03 2005 Subject: Fw: Control Data Cyber 960 rescue interest? Message-ID: <7A9BACCEF0171D4FB77019F5104CDD372258E4@jeffserver.tegjeff.com> > Hmm... Any chance that it runs PLATO? I'd be happy to help with a > coordinated rescue. I live in Delaware, but have been doing some weekly > travel to Atlanta to work on a project. ISTR that they were a PLATO site, but I've no idea whether this system was running it or not. Yes, it should run, given the proper peripheral equipment (again ISTR PLATO had unique site hardware requirements). Bear in mind that PLATO is a commercial product still marketed as NovaNET (I believe it's getting yet another name at this moment), so you'd be hard pressed to get legal permission to run it. I suppose you've seen my gallery of PLATO (NovaNET) screen shots; I need to get them moved to the site Jay West said he'd make available so I can add the second gallery. -dq From h.wolter at sympatico.ca Tue Nov 13 14:33:02 2001 From: h.wolter at sympatico.ca (Heinz Wolter) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:11:03 2005 Subject: microvax 3 info: ka650-ba is single user? Message-ID: <00b201c16c82$64a27040$3a92a8c0@MAGGIE> Looking to upgrade one of my Mv2's and came across an auction item with a ka650-ba with 2 16 meg mem cards. The price is right - but it goes on to explain that the -ba is a single user cpu - which seems silly to me. Is there some special thing about this cpu that will only let it run single license VMs or Ultrix? I can't see how they limit that. Is the this bullsh*t? I can't find any google refs that will support the single user claim.. regards, Heinz -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20011113/5020c296/attachment.html From erd_6502 at yahoo.com Tue Nov 13 14:44:56 2001 From: erd_6502 at yahoo.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:11:03 2005 Subject: New acquisitions: Suns, room In-Reply-To: <515.717T1350T1434491optimus@canit.se> Message-ID: <20011113204456.6627.qmail@web20102.mail.yahoo.com> --- Iggy Drougge wrote: > Ethan Dicks skrev: > > >Well, amidst all this Sun3 stuff, does anyone have a Type3 keyboard to > >spare? I have lots of Type4s and Type5s and I was contemplating > >manufacturing a DA15<->DIN-8 keyboard converter, but I'd rather have > >the real thing (I do have an RJ-11 mouse already). > > Is that the same mouse as for DesqView or whatever that old Visicorp-made > PC GUI system was made? I've got such a mouse, made by Mouse Systems in > the old three-button SUN style and with an RJ11 connector? Dunno for sure. What I have is a Mouse Systems 3-button mouse with an RJ-11 with gold-plated posts sticking out like ears - presumably so you wouldn't stick it into a telephone jack. It came from the trash of a place that had lots of Suns, so AFAIK, it's for a Sun3. -ethan __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Find the one for you at Yahoo! Personals http://personals.yahoo.com From jss at subatomix.com Tue Nov 13 14:46:01 2001 From: jss at subatomix.com (Jeffrey S. Sharp) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:11:03 2005 Subject: Fw: Control Data Cyber 960 rescue interest? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20011113144535.N6985-100000@lepton.subatomix.com> On Tue, 13 Nov 2001, Sellam Ismail wrote: > Here's a picture of John at the console demonstrating the machine to a > group of us at the last VCF Europa: How big is it in total? -- Jeffrey S. Sharp jss@subatomix.com From dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com Tue Nov 13 14:51:39 2001 From: dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com (Douglas Quebbeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:11:03 2005 Subject: Fw: Control Data Cyber 960 rescue interest? Message-ID: <7A9BACCEF0171D4FB77019F5104CDD372258E5@jeffserver.tegjeff.com> > On Tue, 13 Nov 2001, Douglas Quebbeman wrote: > > > Forwarded from COMP.SYS.CDC; please direct replies to the > > original poster... -doug q > > The only person I know who might truly be interested in acquiring this > beast is John Zabolitzky in Munich, Germany. But he already has one > complete system, UP AND RUNNING even. > > Here's a picture of John at the console demonstrating the machine to a > group of us at the last VCF Europa: > > http://www.siconic.com/crap/John%20Zabolitzky%20Demonstraing%2 > 0Cyber%20960%204.jpg Sellam, you're the most prominent fixture in the picture! > Other than he, the only organization that I know would be capable of > retrieving and storing this machine is the Computer History Museum here in > the Sillycon Valley. They might not consider the 180/960 worth having, it's not a historical machine, well, yes, "last of the line" would be considered historical... at least I *think* this was the last model (in the line that trails back to the 6600). From cmcmanis at mcmanis.com Tue Nov 13 15:05:20 2001 From: cmcmanis at mcmanis.com (Chuck McManis) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:11:03 2005 Subject: microvax 3 info: ka650-ba is single user? In-Reply-To: <00b201c16c82$64a27040$3a92a8c0@MAGGIE> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20011113130249.00a18940@mcmanis.com> VMS can tell from the sysctl register that its a -BA version. This was the CPU uses in the VAXStation 3200. The Hobbyist license doesn't care. I've heard, but not verified that a general purpose VMS license (ie not the VAXStation version) will complain with this CPU but can't personally verify that because I don't have different licenses to try. In general, if you are using the Hobbyist license you can ignore this issue. --Chuck At 12:33 PM 11/13/01, you wrote: >Looking to upgrade one of my Mv2's and came across >an auction item with a ka650-ba with 2 16 meg mem >cards. The price is right - but it goes on to explain that >the -ba is a single user cpu - which seems silly to me. >Is there some special thing about this cpu that will only let >it run single license VMs or Ultrix? I can't see how they >limit that. Is the this bullsh*t? I can't find any google refs >that will support the single user claim.. > >regards, >Heinz From mtapley at swri.edu Tue Nov 13 14:55:54 2001 From: mtapley at swri.edu (Mark Tapley) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:11:03 2005 Subject: yet another NeXT question Message-ID: >I've never used my OD. ... >....Since it would be useless when I get a >33mhz motherboard, why bother? Well, you *could* make it useful. Do the hack to install your old 25 MHz mainboard in one of the alternate slots. Put the new 33 MHz mainboard in the traditional slot. Connect both to your ethernetwork. Have the 25 MHz net-boot from the 33 MHz, or boot it off its own optical (but I'd have it net-boot, so you can use the optical for backups or whatever). I dunno what your power supply would think of all this, particularly if that's the same system you have the Dimension in, so I recommend some caution, but if it works it'll be pretty cool. You'd still be able to access the OD, via the 25 MHz board (which you could also set up as a print server), but all your console programs would get the benefit of the 33 MHz board. - Mark From mtapley at swri.edu Tue Nov 13 14:38:05 2001 From: mtapley at swri.edu (Mark Tapley) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:11:03 2005 Subject: 9-Track Tapes available Message-ID: All, My division of SwRI is getting rid of a large pile (appx. 1000) 9-track tapes. They are 8 inch and 10 inch sized reels, 1600 to 6250 bpi, Scotch Black Watch 777 brand (for the most part). I'm going to collect all the ones headed for the trash, stack them in my office, and either put them in the right hands or transfer them to the dumpster a few at a time if no-one is interested. Please contact me off-line (mtapley@swri.edu) if you are willing to pay shipping in order to have some of these show up at your door. I'm in San Antonio, Texas, USA, zip code 78238, for purposes of calculating postage. Data on the tapes is probably NASA satellite data; it need not and will not be erased, so you can peruse it or erase the tape at your convenience. - Mark From edick at idcomm.com Tue Nov 13 15:18:04 2001 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:11:03 2005 Subject: hard-sector 5 1/4 disk References: <200111131723.JAA25231@ellie.ssl.berkeley.edu> Message-ID: <002801c16c88$ae95f5e0$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> You're right on the money, there, Eric, and I'm with you all the way on the rather meager sort of DOS. By comparison with CP/M, it was pretty disappointing, and Peter Boyle, the author of the XPL0 language for the 6502, spent only a few weeks (less than two months) of his spare time, all the while earning a living doing something for which he got paid, writing the APEX OS, which was much easier to use, in my rather limited experience with the Apple, than the various versions of an OS offered for the Apple][/][+, etc. and was designed from the ground up for doing useful work, and not necessarily for playing games. He did his work on 8" drives, I'd add, since he, too, had limited confidence in the Apple][ disk subsystem. Dick ----- Original Message ----- From: "Eric J. Korpela" To: Sent: Tuesday, November 13, 2001 10:23 AM Subject: Re: hard-sector 5 1/4 disk > > > If Sellam insists, then we can agree to disagree, since I don't think much of > > the Apple][, not back in the early days of microcomputers, and certainly not > > now, when we can all thank our lucky starts that we have better tools to use. > > On the other hand, I love Apple ][s. I spent much of my younger days with > them. I have a fairly reasonable collection of ][ series and clones. I spend > more time with my ][s than with any other of my systems. I love 'em. Yet, > I'm not joining Sellam in insisting that the Disk ][ system was the best thing > on the market. > > Then again, I don't join my fellow Apple ][ collectors in claiming that the > 6502 was the best processor on the market either. Like all religions, the > true believers will always shout down the heretics. > > What the Apple ][ was (including the Disk ][ system) is an example of what > a great hacker can do with limited resources. It wasn't the fastest machine. > It didn't have the best graphics. It didn't have the best disk subsystem. > It had a positively crappy DOS. But it was an incredible hack. Maybe the > best I've ever seen. > > Eric > > From dittman at dittman.net Tue Nov 13 15:46:14 2001 From: dittman at dittman.net (Eric Dittman) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:11:03 2005 Subject: microvax 3 info: ka650-ba is single user? In-Reply-To: <00b201c16c82$64a27040$3a92a8c0@MAGGIE> from "Heinz Wolter" at Nov 13, 2001 03:33:02 PM Message-ID: <200111132146.fADLkE826705@narnia.int.dittman.net> > Looking to upgrade one of my Mv2's and came across > an auction item with a ka650-ba with 2 16 meg mem > cards. The price is right - but it goes on to explain that > the -ba is a single user cpu - which seems silly to me. > Is there some special thing about this cpu that will only let > it run single license VMs or Ultrix? I can't see how they > limit that. Is the this bullsh*t? I can't find any google refs > that will support the single user claim.. The -BA was the VAXserver model, which has a different license from the -AA. The only difference is the ROMs. -- Eric Dittman dittman@dittman.net Check out the DEC Enthusiasts Club at http://www.dittman.net/ From dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com Tue Nov 13 15:53:40 2001 From: dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com (Douglas Quebbeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:11:03 2005 Subject: Fw: Control Data Cyber 960 rescue interest? Message-ID: <7A9BACCEF0171D4FB77019F5104CDD372258E7@jeffserver.tegjeff.com> > On Tue, 13 Nov 2001, Sellam Ismail wrote: > > > Here's a picture of John at the console demonstrating the machine to a > > group of us at the last VCF Europa: > > How big is it in total? This photo might yield up a clue: http://members.iglou.com/dougq/cdc/cyber960.jpg -dq From mcguire at neurotica.com Tue Nov 13 16:01:38 2001 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:11:03 2005 Subject: microvax 3 info: ka650-ba is single user? In-Reply-To: Re: microvax 3 info: ka650-ba is single user? (Eric Dittman) References: <00b201c16c82$64a27040$3a92a8c0@MAGGIE> <200111132146.fADLkE826705@narnia.int.dittman.net> Message-ID: <15345.38978.115443.667878@phaduka.neurotica.com> On November 13, Eric Dittman wrote: > > Looking to upgrade one of my Mv2's and came across > > an auction item with a ka650-ba with 2 16 meg mem > > cards. The price is right - but it goes on to explain that > > the -ba is a single user cpu - which seems silly to me. > > Is there some special thing about this cpu that will only let > > it run single license VMs or Ultrix? I can't see how they > > limit that. Is the this bullsh*t? I can't find any google refs > > that will support the single user claim.. > > The -BA was the VAXserver model, which has a different license > from the -AA. The only difference is the ROMs. Hmm...I think I have a KA650-AA; if the difference is just the ROMs I'd be happy to burn a set for you, Heinz... -Dave -- Dave McGuire St. Petersburg, FL From pechter at ureach.com Tue Nov 13 16:02:51 2001 From: pechter at ureach.com (Bill Pechter) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:11:03 2005 Subject: Xenix ? Message-ID: <200111132202.RAA10281@stage20.ureach.com> ---- On Tue, 13 Nov 2001, Eric J. Korpela (korpela@ssl.berkeley.edu) wrote: > > Actually Xenix was never a Microsoft branded product. > > Maybe true, but it was certainly plastered with Microsoft copyrights. > All the > scripts and headers in the Tandy 16/6000 version were copyright > Microsoft. > > > Then again Xenix was the clear proof that M$ can not even compy a > great OS > > correctly. I remember using a version of Xenix that only allowed 8.3 > > naming of files (like M$-DOS)! Typical M$ "innovation"... pheb! > > I doubt it. I think early versions of Xenix had the v7 filename > limits. > I've never seen one that recognized extensions as anything special. > > Eric > > > I've never seen the 8.3 in Xenix... IIRC Microsoft had the SysV standard 13 character file names in Xenix like SysIII (and IIRC v7). It was BSD which did symbolic links and IIRC 255 character file names in the 4.2 BSD Fast File System... SysV got this in SVR4 (about 1989 or so)... Research had this in Edition 10... Bill From mcguire at neurotica.com Tue Nov 13 16:03:39 2001 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:11:03 2005 Subject: Fw: Control Data Cyber 960 rescue interest? In-Reply-To: RE: Fw: Control Data Cyber 960 rescue interest? (Douglas Quebbeman) References: <7A9BACCEF0171D4FB77019F5104CDD372258E7@jeffserver.tegjeff.com> Message-ID: <15345.39099.994945.834285@phaduka.neurotica.com> On November 13, Douglas Quebbeman wrote: > > > Here's a picture of John at the console demonstrating the machine to a > > > group of us at the last VCF Europa: > > > > How big is it in total? > > This photo might yield up a clue: > > http://members.iglou.com/dougq/cdc/cyber960.jpg Ooooohhhh what a beautiful machine! The Dell box in the foreground really offends my sensibilities, though. I wonder what it would take for me (someone with NO spending money right now) to get that machine... -Dave -- Dave McGuire St. Petersburg, FL From mcguire at neurotica.com Tue Nov 13 16:08:06 2001 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:11:03 2005 Subject: Fw: Control Data Cyber 960 rescue interest? In-Reply-To: RE: Fw: Control Data Cyber 960 rescue interest? (Douglas Quebbeman) References: <7A9BACCEF0171D4FB77019F5104CDD372258E7@jeffserver.tegjeff.com> Message-ID: <15345.39366.975967.487293@phaduka.neurotica.com> On November 13, Douglas Quebbeman wrote: > http://members.iglou.com/dougq/cdc/cyber960.jpg Anyone have any architectural or performance info for this machine? I assume it's a memory-to-memory vector machine like the earlier Cybers? -Dave -- Dave McGuire St. Petersburg, FL From classiccmp at knm.yi.org Tue Nov 13 16:17:11 2001 From: classiccmp at knm.yi.org (Matt London) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:11:03 2005 Subject: IRC channel? In-Reply-To: <01Nov13.083056est.119079@gateway.mediacen.navy.mil> Message-ID: Hi, Decided to have a poke about on IRCnet - talk about faff trying to connect. I eventually found one server that let me on, which promptly timed me out after about 2 mins. If I might make a suggestion... :&) ...OpenProjects.net might be a better place for the channel (then again, I am biased being staff at opn). It's a smaller network than IRCnet (around 4500 users), primarily aimed at the techie community (writing/using/support for opensource software and the general like). I think classiccmp would fit right in :&) OPN has servers all over the world, with major hubs in the UK (for europe), Australia and the US. If anyone's intrested: irc.openprojects.net irc.us.openprojects.net irc.eu.openprojects.net irc.au.openprojects.net hogan.openprojects.net (UK server - my machine :&) I've created and registered #classiccmp if anyone wants to join me there :&) -- Matt --- Web Page: http://knm.yi.org/ http://pkl.net/~matt/ PGP Key fingerprint = 00BF 19FE D5F5 8EAD 2FD5 D102 260E 8BA7 EEE4 8D7F PGP Key http://knm.yi.org/matt-pgp.html From jss at subatomix.com Tue Nov 13 16:39:00 2001 From: jss at subatomix.com (Jeffrey S. Sharp) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:11:03 2005 Subject: Fw: Control Data Cyber 960 rescue interest? In-Reply-To: <7A9BACCEF0171D4FB77019F5104CDD372258E7@jeffserver.tegjeff.com> Message-ID: <20011113163257.L6985-100000@lepton.subatomix.com> On Tue, 13 Nov 2001, Douglas Quebbeman wrote: > > On Tue, 13 Nov 2001, Sellam Ismail wrote: > > > > > Here's a picture of John at the console demonstrating the machine to > > > a group of us at the last VCF Europa: > > > > How big is it in total? > > This photo might yield up a clue: > > http://members.iglou.com/dougq/cdc/cyber960.jpg Impressive! If I *thought* I even had a chance at convincing them to store it until summer, I think I'd be crazy enough to try to raise the money and rescue that thing. Someone *is* going to rescue it, aren't they? -- Jeffrey S. Sharp jss@subatomix.com From donm at cts.com Tue Nov 13 16:42:05 2001 From: donm at cts.com (Don Maslin) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:11:03 2005 Subject: Xenix ? In-Reply-To: <01C16BF8.1F9B08C0@mse-d03> Message-ID: On Tue, 13 Nov 2001, M H Stein wrote: > -----------Original Message---------- > Date: Sun, 11 Nov 2001 20:45:49 -0700 > From: Ben Franchuk > Subject: Re: Xenix ? > > Don Maslin wrote: > > Somehow, I am inclined to question if there was a Z-80 version of Xenix > > and, if not, then there was none for the Model II. > > The only OS that came close to Unix for 8 bit micros was OS/9 for the > 6809 and > > ---------------------------------------------------------- > Don't forget Z80 Cromix... > > mike And Minix, but none of them are really Xenix. - don From h.wolter at sympatico.ca Tue Nov 13 16:52:07 2001 From: h.wolter at sympatico.ca (Heinz Wolter) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:11:03 2005 Subject: Fw: Control Data Cyber 960 rescue interest? References: <20011113163257.L6985-100000@lepton.subatomix.com> Message-ID: <011001c16c95$d2814a60$3a92a8c0@MAGGIE> well- how much could it cost to ship. By common carrier- 1000lbs would only be about ~300-400$US, right? h "Jeffrey S. Sharp" wrote: > > http://members.iglou.com/dougq/cdc/cyber960.jpg > > Impressive! If I *thought* I even had a chance at convincing them to > store it until summer, I think I'd be crazy enough to try to raise the > money and rescue that thing. > > Someone *is* going to rescue it, aren't they? From jhellige at earthlink.net Tue Nov 13 17:10:21 2001 From: jhellige at earthlink.net (Jeff Hellige) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:11:03 2005 Subject: yet another NeXT question In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: > Well, you *could* make it useful. Do the hack to install your old >25 MHz mainboard in one of the alternate slots. Put the new 33 MHz >mainboard in the traditional slot. Connect both to your ethernetwork. Have >the 25 MHz net-boot from the 33 MHz, or boot it off its own optical (but >I'd have it net-boot, so >you can use the optical for backups or whatever). When I got mine, it had dual '040 non-turbo boards installed with the hard disk, floppy and OD running off of the same CPU board. The backplane doesn't appear to have the ID number hack applied, so I'm not sure if the machine was actually run like this or not. I've pulled the 2nd '040 board, to keep as a spare, and replaced it's slot cover plate. Jeff -- Home of the TRS-80 Model 2000 FAQ File http://www.cchaven.com http://www.geocities.com/siliconvalley/lakes/6757 From jhellige at earthlink.net Tue Nov 13 17:12:27 2001 From: jhellige at earthlink.net (Jeff Hellige) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:11:03 2005 Subject: Fw: Control Data Cyber 960 rescue interest? In-Reply-To: <7A9BACCEF0171D4FB77019F5104CDD372258E7@jeffserver.tegjeff.com> References: <7A9BACCEF0171D4FB77019F5104CDD372258E7@jeffserver.tegjeff.com> Message-ID: > > How big is it in total? > >This photo might yield up a clue: > >http://members.iglou.com/dougq/cdc/cyber960.jpg That's pretty cool...too bad it wouldn't fit in my computer room, even if I did empty everything else out of it! Jeff -- Home of the TRS-80 Model 2000 FAQ File http://www.cchaven.com http://www.geocities.com/siliconvalley/lakes/6757 From foo at siconic.com Tue Nov 13 17:15:34 2001 From: foo at siconic.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:11:03 2005 Subject: Fw: Control Data Cyber 960 rescue interest? In-Reply-To: <20011113144535.N6985-100000@lepton.subatomix.com> Message-ID: On Tue, 13 Nov 2001, Jeffrey S. Sharp wrote: > On Tue, 13 Nov 2001, Sellam Ismail wrote: > > > Here's a picture of John at the console demonstrating the machine to a > > group of us at the last VCF Europa: > > How big is it in total? The processor section itself is the size of a pickup truck. The power supply and some other component of the power system each take up a the equivalent of a double cabinet rack. Then there's the multiple washer-sized disk drives. It takes up roughly 400sqft. Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org From foo at siconic.com Tue Nov 13 17:21:53 2001 From: foo at siconic.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:11:03 2005 Subject: Fw: Control Data Cyber 960 rescue interest? In-Reply-To: <7A9BACCEF0171D4FB77019F5104CDD372258E5@jeffserver.tegjeff.com> Message-ID: On Tue, 13 Nov 2001, Douglas Quebbeman wrote: > > http://www.siconic.com/crap/John%20Zabolitzky%20Demonstraing%2 > > 0Cyber%20960%204.jpg > > Sellam, you're the most prominent fixture in the picture! Actually, that's John Zabolitzky at the console. My hair is not nearly that gray (yet, in spite of it all ;) > They might not consider the 180/960 worth having, it's not a > historical machine, well, yes, "last of the line" would be considered > historical... at least I *think* this was the last model (in the line > that trails back to the 6600). I would consider it historical if just because it's not manufactured anymore, and I'm sure they would too. At any rate, ten years from now it will be sorely missed if no one takes the initiative to rescue it now. Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org From foo at siconic.com Tue Nov 13 17:23:31 2001 From: foo at siconic.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:11:03 2005 Subject: 9-Track Tapes available In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Tue, 13 Nov 2001, Mark Tapley wrote: > Data on the tapes is probably NASA satellite data; it need not > and will not be erased, so you can peruse it or erase the tape at your > convenience. Hopefully, and I assume, this data has been transferred over to more modern media. You may want to put up batches of 10 each on eBay and see if they sell. Not to make any significant amount of money, but there just might be someone out there who can use these. Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org From foo at siconic.com Tue Nov 13 17:24:56 2001 From: foo at siconic.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:11:03 2005 Subject: Fw: Control Data Cyber 960 rescue interest? In-Reply-To: <7A9BACCEF0171D4FB77019F5104CDD372258E7@jeffserver.tegjeff.com> Message-ID: On Tue, 13 Nov 2001, Douglas Quebbeman wrote: > > > Here's a picture of John at the console demonstrating the machine to a > > > group of us at the last VCF Europa: > > > > How big is it in total? > > This photo might yield up a clue: > > http://members.iglou.com/dougq/cdc/cyber960.jpg That's a photo of a 180, which he also has (or was it a 170?) and is working on getting running. The console in the photo I posted was for the 960, which you can't see in the background. Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org From beesley at mandrake.demon.co.uk Tue Nov 13 17:36:55 2001 From: beesley at mandrake.demon.co.uk (Phil Beesley) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:11:03 2005 Subject: Lifting stuff into racks Message-ID: Date: Mon, 12 Nov 2001 12:18:06 -0800 (PST) From: Sellam Ismail Subject: Re: Lifting stuff into racks On Mon, 12 Nov 2001 Sellam Ismail wrote: > I think we could learn a lot from the Egyptians in this matter. Too bad > they didn't leave behind a reference guide. Allegedly, they left a guide but it's in an unreadable format. The archaeologists are still arguing whether to blame Sellam's drives or Dick's disks ;-) Phil ----- Mac OS X: It's Unix, Jim, but not as we know it... From jss at subatomix.com Tue Nov 13 17:38:36 2001 From: jss at subatomix.com (Jeffrey S. Sharp) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:11:03 2005 Subject: Fw: Control Data Cyber 960 rescue interest? In-Reply-To: <011001c16c95$d2814a60$3a92a8c0@MAGGIE> Message-ID: <20011113173302.S6985-100000@lepton.subatomix.com> On Tue, 13 Nov 2001, Heinz Wolter wrote: > well- how much could it cost to ship. By common carrier- 1000lbs would > only be about ~300-400$US, right? Point A: http://members.iglou.com/dougq/cdc/cyber960.jpg Isn't this a little big for $400? Point B: I'd still need to raise the money. It wouldn't take me more than a few weeks, but I would still have to do it. Point C: I've got a lot of room now, but would it be enough? -- Jeffrey S. Sharp jss@subatomix.com From gehrich at tampabay.rr.com Tue Nov 13 17:49:16 2001 From: gehrich at tampabay.rr.com (Gene Ehrich) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:11:03 2005 Subject: USB 5 1/4 disk In-Reply-To: <002801c16c88$ae95f5e0$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> References: <200111131723.JAA25231@ellie.ssl.berkeley.edu> Message-ID: <4.3.2.7.2.20011113184802.00ae9360@pop3.norton.antivirus> Does anyone know if it's possible to attach a high density (1.2) 5-1/4 disk drive to a PC via the USB port? From cube1 at home.com Tue Nov 13 18:07:12 2001 From: cube1 at home.com (Jay Jaeger) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:11:03 2005 Subject: H7140 PDP 11/24 Power Supply Advice In-Reply-To: <20011112233742.H5603-100000@lepton.subatomix.com> References: <4.3.2.7.2.20011112172518.03ca6e58@cirithi> Message-ID: <4.3.2.7.2.20011113180301.0201d468@cirithi> I strongly recommend doing so if you plan on working on pre-PC era machines. They do break. But repairing them can actually be quite rewarding. (The failures themselves are frustrating, but the repairs are often fun). And, sometimes, recognizing circuits can be good for your health. Although I am certainly no expert on power supply design, I can recognize a +300V voltage doubler when I see one, and realize what that might mean were I to touch it. Even more important is basic power line safety. Knowing what the rules are for hot vs. neutral vs. ground (and when to recognize that a previous repair might have been done by someone totally clueless) can save your LIFE! Safety first! Having folks around the list willing to help is a big plus. I wish I had more time to be more helpful. Jay At 11:38 PM 11/12/2001 -0600, you wrote: >On Mon, 12 Nov 2001, Jay Jaeger wrote: > > > Tony, you get the "superhero" rating in my book. With minimal > > description on my part, you pegged the failure spot on. > >Gads, you guys are so cool. I've got to move electronics up in priority >in my List of Things to Learn. > >-- >Jeffrey S. Sharp >jss@subatomix.com --- Jay R. Jaeger The Computer Collection cube1@home.com visit http://members.home.net/thecomputercollection From curt at atari-history.com Tue Nov 13 18:06:08 2001 From: curt at atari-history.com (Curt Vendel) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:11:03 2005 Subject: Corvus Floppy Drive? References: Message-ID: <001f01c16ca0$2af63430$0a00a8c0@cvendel> Hi all.... My quest for the elusive Corvus Concept finally ended as I was able to obtain one of the beastie's in excellent shape. There is mention of a disk drive for the system, I'm wondering if there are any other Concept owners out there who have explored the inner workings of the unit. I also have some ISA bus Transporter cards that I've been saving for just this special occassion in hopes of connecting the Concept and PC together, any have any luck/experience with this kind of senario??? Thanks, Curt From vance at ikickass.org Tue Nov 13 18:09:21 2001 From: vance at ikickass.org (One Without Reason) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:11:03 2005 Subject: Fw: Control Data Cyber 960 rescue interest? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Tue, 13 Nov 2001, Sellam Ismail wrote: > The processor section itself is the size of a pickup truck. The power > supply and some other component of the power system each take up a the > equivalent of a double cabinet rack. Then there's the multiple > washer-sized disk drives. > > It takes up roughly 400sqft. I have that kind of room, I just don't have money to buy it. Peace... Sridhar From fmc at reanimators.org Tue Nov 13 18:47:01 2001 From: fmc at reanimators.org (Frank McConnell) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:11:03 2005 Subject: Corvus Floppy Drive? In-Reply-To: "Curt Vendel"'s message of "Tue, 13 Nov 2001 19:06:08 -0500" References: <001f01c16ca0$2af63430$0a00a8c0@cvendel> Message-ID: <200111140047.fAE0l1O57491@daemonweed.reanimators.org> "Curt Vendel" wrote: > My quest for the elusive Corvus Concept finally ended as I was able to > obtain one of the beastie's in excellent shape. There is mention of a disk > drive for the system, I'm wondering if there are any other Concept owners > out there who have explored the inner workings of the unit. Congratulations! Corvus made 8" and 5.25" floppy drives for the Concept, and matching controller(s) that fit in one of the Concept's slots. The controller(s) are based on the WD1793 FDC. The 8" disk drive is a Tandon half-height 8" (848?) in a box with power supply. Nothing special except it says "Corvus Systems" on the box. The 5.25" disk drive...well, I can't remember: (a) whether it used the same controller as the 8" (b) if so, what they did to get from the 50-pin connector on the controller to the 34-pin connector on the drive Most Concept floppies that I've seen have been 8", and I've only seen one of the 5.25" drives. -Frank McConnell From jbdigriz at dragonsweb.org Tue Nov 13 19:18:39 2001 From: jbdigriz at dragonsweb.org (James B. DiGriz) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:11:03 2005 Subject: Fw: Control Data Cyber 960 rescue interest? References: <5.0.2.1.0.20011113135151.026a7990@mail.njd.concentric.com> Message-ID: <3BF1C66F.1000400@dragonsweb.org> Tony Eros wrote: > Hmm... Any chance that it runs PLATO? I'd be happy to help with a > coordinated rescue. I live in Delaware, but have been doing some weekly > travel to Atlanta to work on a project. > p.p.s No idea if it runs Plato. I only ever used predecessor machines, remotely. Cyber 6000 series and 74, running Kronos. Don't recall a Plato installation, but I could be wrong. Didn't those use a separate processor of some kind? later, jbdigriz From john_boffemmyer_iv at boff-net.dhs.org Tue Nov 13 19:19:47 2001 From: john_boffemmyer_iv at boff-net.dhs.org (John Boffemmyer IV) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:11:03 2005 Subject: USB 5 1/4 disk In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.2.20011113184802.00ae9360@pop3.norton.antivirus> References: <002801c16c88$ae95f5e0$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> <200111131723.JAA25231@ellie.ssl.berkeley.edu> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20011113201447.01d556b0@sokieserv.dhs.org> Yes, it is possible since the data transfer speeds are slower than the USB limit. the only problem is: it's not really feasible. Of the 2 companies that I know of that experimented with the idea, neither produced because of the lack of interest and large non-returnable fees involved with actually developing and producing (en mass) working units. Plus, we all know WinDoze never likes everything USB. It will always hate that one device you really happen to need =) In linux, I know of a guy who had the idea, but never created the assembly (the hardware for the layfolk) or bothered writing the code for it since he was a poor college student like some of us (ok, so I'm ex-college, I'm still po'). -John Boff. At 06:49 PM 11/13/01, you wrote: >Does anyone know if it's possible to attach a high density (1.2) 5-1/4 >disk drive to a PC via the USB port? > ---------------------------------------- Founder, Lead Writer, Tech Analyst and Web Designer Boff-Net Technologies http://boff-net.dhs.org/index.html --------------------------------------- From optimus at canit.se Tue Nov 13 19:21:22 2001 From: optimus at canit.se (Iggy Drougge) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:11:03 2005 Subject: Eight-inch Message-ID: <1076.718T1100T1414437optimus@canit.se> I visited a shop in "Siberia" which I hadn't visited in a long time today. they had redecorated, and in the inner-most room, they had a "50% off" shelf. They had several sealed packs of eight-inch floppies, BASF-made. Their price? Five crowns! And then fifty percent off that, that's 2,50, or 25 US cents. I got two to begin with (I only had some change, and wans't aware that the discount was referring to the 5 kr merchandise. I also got some Token Ring NICs, a TR cable and a sealed case of 5?" DD floppies at the same price. Some things I did't get: A lot of WANG things; several ISA cards with BNC and TNC connectors, printer adaptors (boxes with BNC and Centronics connectors), baluns. Original Novell NE2000 cards. Bad cards, but nice to some collectors, I suppose, and useful for programmers. Odd PhoneNet concentrators. -- En ligne avec Thor 2.6a. IRAQ, 10984 GHz, V Getting TV from Iraq at all is kinda cool - you can get propaganda in English at 1900 BST, and see the guy with the moustache almost any time. When they show anime it's even cooler... Geoff Cowie From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Nov 13 19:31:28 2001 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:11:03 2005 Subject: H7140 PDP 11/24 Power Supply Advice In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.2.20011113180301.0201d468@cirithi> from "Jay Jaeger" at Nov 13, 1 06:07:12 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 3370 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20011114/c505cf03/attachment.ksh From jbdigriz at dragonsweb.org Tue Nov 13 19:38:48 2001 From: jbdigriz at dragonsweb.org (James B. DiGriz) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:11:03 2005 Subject: Fw: Control Data Cyber 960 rescue interest? References: Message-ID: <3BF1CB28.3060003@dragonsweb.org> Sellam Ismail wrote: > On Tue, 13 Nov 2001, Douglas Quebbeman wrote: > > >>Forwarded from COMP.SYS.CDC; please direct replies to the >>original poster... -doug q >> > > The only person I know who might truly be interested in acquiring this > beast is John Zabolitzky in Munich, Germany. But he already has one > complete system, UP AND RUNNING even. > > Here's a picture of John at the console demonstrating the machine to a > group of us at the last VCF Europa: > > http://www.siconic.com/crap/John%20Zabolitzky%20Demonstraing%20Cyber%20960%204.jpg > > Other than he, the only organization that I know would be capable of > retrieving and storing this machine is the Computer History Museum here in > the Sillycon Valley. > > Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ > International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org > > > > Sellam, please excuse me not responding via the list, but my posts aren't getting through there. I've discussed it with Dag Spicer and Eugene Miya; the Museum is interested and willing to take it, although they have more pressing priorities at the moment, but unless somebody can really cut through the red tape at a HIGH level, it's looking more and more like it ain't gonna happen. It's probably only going to stay out of the scrap heap if it can be kept in the state, as with the old TI's I'm also trying to get hold of. I'll be the first to admit I'm not the most experienced with mainframes, but I learn quick, and I'm probably one of the few in this area with both the skill and the interest to see it through, wherever it ends up, and I know some of the few other like persons in the area. I know one person who did some of the area remote links to the Cyber. Don't write me of *that* quick. :-) I've already spoken to John, among others. I'll be setting up a list on this in a day or so. Will post the address soon. later, jbdigriz From curt at atari-history.com Tue Nov 13 20:43:22 2001 From: curt at atari-history.com (Curt Vendel) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:11:03 2005 Subject: Corvus Floppy Drive? References: <001f01c16ca0$2af63430$0a00a8c0@cvendel> <200111140047.fAE0l1O57491@daemonweed.reanimators.org> Message-ID: <000d01c16cb6$24381f30$0a00a8c0@cvendel> Frank, Thanks for the info. If you happen by a Corvus floppy in the future, keep me in mind, I'd be interested in it. Now if I can find some spec's on the 4 bus slots it would be fun to try and build a controller. I did a search on Google for resume's with Corvus in them and contacted a few former Corvus people, but noone seems to have retained any technical data or schematics on the Concept..... a true shame. Curt ----- Original Message ----- From: "Frank McConnell" To: Sent: Tuesday, November 13, 2001 7:47 PM Subject: Re: Corvus Floppy Drive? > "Curt Vendel" wrote: > > My quest for the elusive Corvus Concept finally ended as I was able to > > obtain one of the beastie's in excellent shape. There is mention of a disk > > drive for the system, I'm wondering if there are any other Concept owners > > out there who have explored the inner workings of the unit. > > Congratulations! > > Corvus made 8" and 5.25" floppy drives for the Concept, and matching > controller(s) that fit in one of the Concept's slots. The > controller(s) are based on the WD1793 FDC. > > The 8" disk drive is a Tandon half-height 8" (848?) in a box with > power supply. Nothing special except it says "Corvus Systems" on the > box. > > The 5.25" disk drive...well, I can't remember: > > (a) whether it used the same controller as the 8" > (b) if so, what they did to get from the 50-pin connector on the > controller to the 34-pin connector on the drive > > Most Concept floppies that I've seen have been 8", and I've only seen > one of the 5.25" drives. > > -Frank McConnell From pcw at mesanet.com Tue Nov 13 20:49:09 2001 From: pcw at mesanet.com (Peter C. Wallace) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:11:03 2005 Subject: H7140 PDP 11/24 Power Supply Advice In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Wed, 14 Nov 2001, Tony Duell wrote: > > > [Learning electronics] > > > I strongly recommend doing so if you plan on working on pre-PC era > > machines. They do break. But repairing them can actually be quite > > I strongly recomend you learn electronics no matter what sort of machine > you work on. Of course I'm biased : > (1) I like to fix the actual fault, know I've fixed it, and know it's > going to stay fixed. Not just swap parts until the machine seems to work > again. > (2) Electronics is fun. I'm an electronic hacker first and a computer > person second. I tend to regard computers as being interesting electronic > circuits [1]. > > With anything older than a 486, you're probably going to have to fix it > yourself. There aren't that many people who will work on older machines > now, and those that do tend to be expensive (for 2 good reasons, (1) it > can take a long time to track the fault down and (2) there are few enough > people doing it, so there's little competition). But I can assure you > that fixing such machines is fun and _very_ educational. > > [1] OK, I think of electronic computers as being interesting electronic > circuits. Babage's engines and other mechanical machines are very > interesting too, but they're not electronic circuits ;-). But I don't > generally get to repair such machines > > > And, sometimes, recognizing circuits can be good for your health. Although > > I am certainly no expert on power supply design, I can recognize a +300V > > voltage doubler when I see one, and realize what that might mean were I to > > touch it. > > You won't feel a thing. Ever again. In other words you'll end up very dead. > > Switch mode power supplies are not particularly nice to work on. In > general a lot of the internal circuitry is directly connected to the > mains, so touching just about any point on the 'hot' (primary) side of > the power supply is equivalent to sticking your finger into a mains > socket. Which is never a good idea! You can't clip a 'scope onto the > primary side either (not unless you're running the PSU off a double-wound > isolating transformer for testing) since the 'scope ground is effectively > much the same thing as the neutral side of the mains. Clipping that > 'scope ground lead onto a point on the hot side of the PSU is similar to > shorting ou the maisn. Again never a good idea. > > I would recomend learning a fair amount of electronics before attempting > to repair such a unit. Or at least making sure you know the safety > precautions. > > > Even more important is basic power line safety. Knowing what the rules are > > for hot vs. neutral vs. ground (and when to recognize that a previous > > repair might have been done by someone totally clueless) can save your LIFE! > > The first rule is to _never_ assume that either the manufacturers or the > previous owner knew what they were doing. > > Don't connect anything to the mains before you've pulled the case and > checked inside. At least a visual inspection, and preferably also an > insulation test and an earth continuity test (if you have the instruments > to do that). Of course the visual test depends on knowing what to look > for. Bare wires (and strands of wire coming off terminals), evidence of > modifications (which may well have been done incorrectly, especially if > they look to have been done poorly), burnt components, trapped wires. > damaged insulation, missing earth wires, loose wires, and so on. > > -tony > > This reminds me of repairing a Perq power supply many years ago. The switching supply had the switching transistor drive circuitry on the isolated side, driving the switch through a transformer. Seemed like it couldn't possibly work when I first looked at it, since how did the power supply ever start up if there was no low voltage to begin with. Turns out that there was a simple 3 component relaxation oscillator (diac? + resistor + capacitor) that tickles the main transformer, generationg enough voltage on the isolated side to start the main switching transistor... The resistor of that circuit was open which is why the power supply failed... Peter Wallace From jbdigriz at dragonsweb.org Tue Nov 13 21:13:07 2001 From: jbdigriz at dragonsweb.org (James B. DiGriz) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:11:03 2005 Subject: Fw: Control Data Cyber 960 rescue interest? References: <5.0.2.1.0.20011113135151.026a7990@mail.njd.concentric.com> <3BF1C66F.1000400@dragonsweb.org> Message-ID: <3BF1E143.7000303@dragonsweb.org> James B. DiGriz wrote: > Tony Eros wrote: > >> Hmm... Any chance that it runs PLATO? I'd be happy to help with a >> coordinated rescue. I live in Delaware, but have been doing some >> weekly travel to Atlanta to work on a project. >> > > > p.p.s No idea if it runs Plato. I only ever used predecessor machines, > remotely. Cyber 6000 series and 74, running Kronos. Don't recall a Plato > installation, but I could be wrong. Didn't those use a separate > processor of some kind? > > later, > jbdigriz > Well, I'll be dipped...now my posts are getting through. I am too tired to re-respond to everyone I replied too privately, though. There should only be one more coming through here. Ok yeah, that was CDC 6000 and Cyber 74. My tie was tongue-twisted. jbdigriz From jbdigriz at dragonsweb.org Tue Nov 13 21:23:45 2001 From: jbdigriz at dragonsweb.org (James B. DiGriz) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:11:03 2005 Subject: Fw: Control Data Cyber 960 rescue interest? References: <3BF1CB28.3060003@dragonsweb.org> Message-ID: <3BF1E3C1.6050803@dragonsweb.org> James B. DiGriz wrote: > Sellam Ismail wrote: > >> On Tue, 13 Nov 2001, Douglas Quebbeman wrote: >> >> >>> Forwarded from COMP.SYS.CDC; please direct replies to the >>> original poster... -doug q >>> >> >> The only person I know who might truly be interested in acquiring this >> beast is John Zabolitzky in Munich, Germany. But he already has one >> complete system, UP AND RUNNING even. >> >> Here's a picture of John at the console demonstrating the machine to a >> group of us at the last VCF Europa: >> >> http://www.siconic.com/crap/John%20Zabolitzky%20Demonstraing%20Cyber%20960%204.jpg >> >> >> Other than he, the only organization that I know would be capable of >> retrieving and storing this machine is the Computer History Museum >> here in >> the Sillycon Valley. >> >> Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer >> Festival >> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ >> >> International Man of Intrigue and Danger >> http://www.vintage.org >> >> >> >> > > Sellam, please excuse me not responding via the list, but my posts > aren't getting through there. > > I've discussed it with Dag Spicer and Eugene Miya; the Museum is > interested and willing to take it, although they have more pressing > priorities at the moment, but unless somebody can really cut through the > red tape at a HIGH level, it's looking more and more like it ain't gonna > happen. > > It's probably only going to stay out of the scrap heap if it can be kept > in the state, as with the old TI's I'm also trying to get hold of. > > I'll be the first to admit I'm not the most experienced with mainframes, > but I learn quick, and I'm probably one of the few in this area with > both the skill and the interest to see it through, wherever it ends up, > and I know some of the few other like persons in the area. I know one > person who did some of the area remote links to the Cyber. Don't write > me of *that* quick. :-) > > I've already spoken to John, among others. I'll be setting up a list on > this in a day or so. Will post the address soon. > > later, > jbdigriz > > Damn. that one I meant to be private. Oh, well, just as well. jbdigriz From jdonogh1 at prodigy.net Tue Nov 13 21:34:06 2001 From: jdonogh1 at prodigy.net (Jim Donoghue) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:11:03 2005 Subject: Eight-inch In-Reply-To: <1076.718T1100T1414437optimus@canit.se> References: <1076.718T1100T1414437optimus@canit.se> Message-ID: <01111322340601.03071@ws1> > A lot of WANG things; several ISA cards with BNC and TNC connectors, > printer adaptors (boxes with BNC and Centronics connectors), baluns. Now I know where all the Wang stuff is - it's getting scarce around here. Jim From KenzieM at sympatico.ca Tue Nov 13 21:22:28 2001 From: KenzieM at sympatico.ca (Mike Kenzie) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:11:03 2005 Subject: Pyramid 90x Message-ID: <000701c16cbe$833b9270$0101a8c0@sympatico.ca> I received an offer of this machine I no longer have space. If someone is interested in picking this up in Ottawa let me know. If you're making a trip I may even throw in a PDP 11/34 ! > >I have an old Pyramid 90x (about equivalent to a VAX 11-780 and the size >of two refrigerators) gathering dust in my garage. It might never run >again and the OS tapes, etc. as well as a few cables are long gone. But >if you're interested you're welcome to it. > Collector of Vintage Computers (www.ncf.ca/~ba600) From gwynp at artware.qc.ca Tue Nov 13 21:43:53 2001 From: gwynp at artware.qc.ca (gwynp@artware.qc.ca) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:11:03 2005 Subject: Xenix ? In-Reply-To: <3BF14DAA.3B4C4CAF@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: On 13-Nov-2001 Ben Franchuk wrote: > (Try and fit your favorite web browser in 8 meg or less) F UID PID PPID PRI NI VSZ RSS WCHAN STAT TTY TIME COMMAND 000 500 12560 7112 0 0 4036 2064 do_sig T pts/11 0:00 lynx OK, so maybe lynx isn't my favorite. But it's the one that crashes the least often and sucks the least. OT : When I got my first vt-220 some years back, I got a trip from browsing the web via lynx with it. There was something silly and subversive using such an old piece technology (serial terminal) as an interface to something "leading-edge". I don't doubt many of you could pull up even bigger contrasts. -Philip From fmc at reanimators.org Tue Nov 13 21:58:28 2001 From: fmc at reanimators.org (Frank McConnell) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:11:03 2005 Subject: Corvus Floppy Drive? In-Reply-To: "Curt Vendel"'s message of "Tue, 13 Nov 2001 21:43:22 -0500" References: <001f01c16ca0$2af63430$0a00a8c0@cvendel> <200111140047.fAE0l1O57491@daemonweed.reanimators.org> <000d01c16cb6$24381f30$0a00a8c0@cvendel> Message-ID: <200111140358.fAE3wSv62823@daemonweed.reanimators.org> "Curt Vendel" wrote: > Thanks for the info. If you happen by a Corvus floppy in the future, > keep me in mind, I'd be interested in it. Now if I can find some spec's > on the 4 bus slots it would be fun to try and build a controller. I did a Did you get any disks? The bus slots are similar to Apple ][ slots. In fact I think the Concept hard disk controller is really the Apple ][ Corvus parallel-interface hard disk controller. You probably want to webulate to where you will find several scanned manuals including: ConceptHWRef.pdf - the Concept Hardware Reference ConceptServiceMan.pdf - the Concept service manual Somewhere I have a (photocopied) schematic of the 8" floppy disk controller too. I'll see if I can dig that out and scan it. -Frank McConnell From jrkeys at concentric.net Tue Nov 13 23:24:29 2001 From: jrkeys at concentric.net (John R. Keys Jr.) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:11:03 2005 Subject: More Finds for the musuem Message-ID: <017301c16ccc$a5763440$29701fd1@default> Over the last few weeks I have found a few items, slim pickings right now. - IBM 3174 1L controller with 2 terminals and keyboards - Tandy color computer ext floppy disk drive model FD501 - 20+ cartridges for Atari 2600, Jaguar, and Game Gear - A Nintendo R. O. B. just the robot missing battery cover. It was $2 so I got it as a spare. - a Microline model 701-A 5V power supply, not sure what it goes with - 20+ mousepads - New in the box 2 TI joysticks for the TI99/4A - Apple III diskware program System Demonstration - digital VT100-AA terminal - Several books and manuals were also added to the collection The rest of the items are not old enough to list. From ernestls at home.com Tue Nov 13 23:42:24 2001 From: ernestls at home.com (Ernest) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:11:03 2005 Subject: Fw: Control Data Cyber 960 rescue interest? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-classiccmp@classiccmp.org > [mailto:owner-classiccmp@classiccmp.org]On Behalf Of Sellam Ismail > > http://members.iglou.com/dougq/cdc/cyber960.jpg > > That's a photo of a 180, which he also has (or was it a 170?) and is > working on getting running. The console in the photo I posted was for the > 960, which you can't see in the background. I like the water nozzle just to the left in the photo. Is that used to spray it down when it gets to hot? Hehe. E. From mrbill at mrbill.net Wed Nov 14 01:25:58 2001 From: mrbill at mrbill.net (Bill Bradford) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:11:03 2005 Subject: The TECO manuals Message-ID: <20011114012558.E12192@mrbill.net> Finally dug again and found the TECO manuals I talked about a few weeks ago. Two books: The bigger one: (1/2" thick or so) --------------- cover: "decsystem10 TECO" first page: document number: DEC-10-ETEE-D "decsystem 10 TECO TEXT EDITOR AND CORRECTOR PROGRAM PROGRAMMER'S REFERENCE MANUAL This manual reflects the software as of version 23 of TECO" copyright: 1968,69,70,71,72 The smaller one: (1/8" thick or so) --------------- cover: "decsystem 10 INTRODUCTION TO TECO (TEXT EDITOR AND CORRECTOR) first page: document number: DEC-10-UTECA-A-D "This document reflects the software as of version 23 of TECO" copyright: 1971,72,73,74,75 (third printing, june 1975) If there's enough interest, and nobody else has already put these online somewhere, I'll get these scanned to JPG, TIF, or PDF this weekend. Bill -- Bill Bradford mrbill@mrbill.net Austin, TX From hansp at aconit.org Wed Nov 14 02:52:46 2001 From: hansp at aconit.org (Hans B Pufal) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:11:03 2005 Subject: USB 5 1/4 disk References: <002801c16c88$ae95f5e0$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> <200111131723.JAA25231@ellie.ssl.berkeley.edu> <5.1.0.14.2.20011113201447.01d556b0@sokieserv.dhs.org> Message-ID: <3BF230DE.7070406@aconit.org> How feasible would it be to replace the 3.5" drive of a USB disk with a 5-1/4" one? -- HBP From optimus at canit.se Tue Nov 13 19:50:54 2001 From: optimus at canit.se (Iggy Drougge) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:11:04 2005 Subject: Xenix ? In-Reply-To: <3BF14DAA.3B4C4CAF@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <1113.718T2700T1706185optimus@canit.se> Ben Franchuk skrev: You really have very short lines, Ben. >ELKS and MINIX also are not completely open source OS's in that some >features like >self compilation and C Compiler sources are not available. Since when was this a requirement of a UNIX? And why should self-compilation and C compiler sources be available? >( OT- Still >looking for >C Compiler I can port for a 12/24 bit micro I am developing other than >small C ver 1). >Unix programs have long since moved from the 64kb code/data segments of >the PDP-11. Try http://pdp10.nocrew.org/. >(Try and fit your favorite web browser in 8 meg or less) 10.Arkiv:pc> list Program:IBrowse2/IBrowse Directory "Program:IBrowse2" on Onsdag 14-Nov-01 IBrowse 621360 ---arwed 22-Mar-00 01:54:08 1 file - 1215 blocks used -- En ligne avec Thor 2.6a. "But software which OpenBSD uses and redistributes must be free to all (be they people or companies), for any purpose they wish to use it, including modification, use, peeing on, or even integration into baby mulching machines or atomic bombs to be dropped on Australia." - Theo de Raadt From optimus at canit.se Tue Nov 13 19:46:48 2001 From: optimus at canit.se (Iggy Drougge) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:11:04 2005 Subject: Xenix ? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <581.718T2400T1665805optimus@canit.se> One Without Reason skrev: >On Tue, 13 Nov 2001, M H Stein wrote: >> Don Maslin wrote: >> > Somehow, I am inclined to question if there was a Z-80 version of Xenix >> > and, if not, then there was none for the Model II. >> >> The only OS that came close to Unix for 8 bit micros was OS/9 for the >> 6809 and >> Don't forget Z80 Cromix... >And ELKS, and MINIX. On the Z80 or 6809 (I know some Motorola coders consider the x86 an eight-bit processor, but... ;-)? OTOH, there's UZIX as well as Lunix. -- En ligne avec Thor 2.6a. Allt ?r under kontroll, och caps lock ?r bredvid. From optimus at canit.se Tue Nov 13 20:13:01 2001 From: optimus at canit.se (Iggy Drougge) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:11:04 2005 Subject: IRC channel? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <703.718T50T1933943optimus@canit.se> Matt London skrev: > Decided to have a poke about on IRCnet - talk about faff trying to >connect. I eventually found one server that let me on, which promptly >timed me out after about 2 mins. First of all, I'm booted from my ISP's IRCnet server whenever I connect since I got broadband. It says I'm K-lined. But that is only when connecting with AmIRC. With BlackIRC or "ircii", it runs just fine. Secondly, you really need to run an identd server in order to connecto many IRC networks nowadays. Or so they tell me, I've been running one for years for no particular purpose. -- En ligne avec Thor 2.6a. Menyn ?r inte lika sexig som telnet, det ?r h?rt men sant. Petri Oksanen #38 p? SUGA BBS From mhstein at usa.net Wed Nov 14 04:18:32 2001 From: mhstein at usa.net (M H Stein) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:11:04 2005 Subject: Cromemco (was: Xenix ?) Message-ID: <01C16CD1.43A2EC40@mse-d03> Date: Tue, 13 Nov 2001 14:42:05 -0800 (PST) From: Don Maslin Subject: Re: Xenix ? On Tue, 13 Nov 2001, M H Stein wrote: > -----------Original Message---------- --------------Original Message------------------ > Date: Sun, 11 Nov 2001 20:45:49 -0700 > From: Ben Franchuk > Subject: Re: Xenix ? > > Don Maslin wrote: > > Somehow, I am inclined to question if there was a Z-80 version of Xenix > > and, if not, then there was none for the Model II. > > The only OS that came close to Unix for 8 bit micros was OS/9 for the > 6809 and > > ---------------------------------------------------------- > Don't forget Z80 Cromix... > > mike And Minix, but none of them are really Xenix. - don -------------------------------------------------------- I was just responding to the "only OS... was OS/9" (not suggesting it was Xenix (or Unix)), since a lot of misinformation on the 'Net erroneously states that Cromix was for the 68000 (for which it was indeed later adapted). Some pictures and background info on Cromemco & Cromix at http://www-db.stanford.edu/pub/voy/museum/pictures/display/3-5-CROMEMCO.html And a list of Unix derivatives: http://www.csee.wvu.edu/~jdm/classes/cs258/OScat/unix.html And how to become an author: http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/show-interview/s-m-obellarkg/104-6433823-2658319 mike From matt at knm.yi.org Wed Nov 14 05:15:21 2001 From: matt at knm.yi.org (Matt London) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:11:04 2005 Subject: IRC channel? In-Reply-To: <703.718T50T1933943optimus@canit.se> Message-ID: Hi, > > Decided to have a poke about on IRCnet - talk about faff trying to > >connect. I eventually found one server that let me on, which promptly > >timed me out after about 2 mins. > > First of all, I'm booted from my ISP's IRCnet server whenever I connect since > I got broadband. It says I'm K-lined. But that is only when connecting with > AmIRC. With BlackIRC or "ircii", it runs just fine. > Secondly, you really need to run an identd server in order to connecto many > IRC networks nowadays. Or so they tell me, I've been running one for years for > no particular purpose. Mmmhmm - It's the lack of decent UK servers that's the problem. Yes, I run ident, and yes, a lot of networks require it (I think OPN is one of them, or if it's not, we're planning to enable that code soon) :&) -- Matt --- E-mail: matt@pkl.net, matt@knm.yi.org, matt@printf.net matt@m-techdiagnostics.ltd.uk, matthew.london@stud.umist.ac.uk mattl@vcd.student.utwente.nl, mlondon@mail.talk-101.com Web Page: http://knm.yi.org/ http://pkl.net/~matt/ PGP Key fingerprint = 00BF 19FE D5F5 8EAD 2FD5 D102 260E 8BA7 EEE4 8D7F PGP Key http://knm.yi.org/matt-pgp.html From jkunz at krumm.unixag-kl.fh-kl.de Wed Nov 14 05:14:01 2001 From: jkunz at krumm.unixag-kl.fh-kl.de (Jochen Kunz) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:11:04 2005 Subject: SMD Hard Disks In-Reply-To: <10111131944.ZM10316@mindy.dunnington.u-net.com> References: <200111131412.PAA30030@maja.unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> <10111131944.ZM10316@mindy.dunnington.u-net.com> Message-ID: <20011114121401.A94794@krumm.unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> On Tue, Nov 13, 2001 at 07:44:35PM +0000, Pete Turnbull wrote: > You might get away with ordinary ribbon cable, which usually has a > characteristic impedance around 100-120 ohms, [...] Yes. But reading the original mail I suspect that the disks will be mounted in the same rack as the machine / controller. So I think the cables will be less then 2m in length and you will get away with ordinary ribbon cable. I know the twisted pair ribbon and shielded cables, but I prefere the round cables that I got from that old Sequent S27. I doubt that this cables will have the exact impedance but they work with my QD33 and the NEC D2363 disks. -- tsch??, Jochen Homepage: http://www.unixag-kl.fh-kl.de/~jkunz/ From dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com Wed Nov 14 07:45:52 2001 From: dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com (Douglas Quebbeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:11:04 2005 Subject: Fw: Control Data Cyber 960 rescue interest? Message-ID: <7A9BACCEF0171D4FB77019F5104CDD372258EC@jeffserver.tegjeff.com> > > > http://www.siconic.com/crap/John%20Zabolitzky%20Demonstraing%2 > > > 0Cyber%20960%204.jpg > > > > Sellam, you're the most prominent fixture in the picture! > > Actually, that's John Zabolitzky at the console. My hair is > not nearly that gray (yet, in spite of it all ;) But aren't you the guy on the left? I was talking in terms of the photo's area... > I would consider it historical if just because it's not manufactured > anymore, and I'm sure they would too. At any rate, ten years from now it > will be sorely missed if no one takes the initiative to rescue it now. Agreed! -dq From dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com Wed Nov 14 07:46:56 2001 From: dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com (Douglas Quebbeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:11:04 2005 Subject: Fw: Control Data Cyber 960 rescue interest? Message-ID: <7A9BACCEF0171D4FB77019F5104CDD372258ED@jeffserver.tegjeff.com> > > http://members.iglou.com/dougq/cdc/cyber960.jpg > > That's a photo of a 180, which he also has (or was it a 170?) and is > working on getting running. The console in the photo I posted was for the > 960, which you can't see in the background. My understanding was that 180 was the series designation, 960 was the model designation. In the 170 series they went about as far as 170/855 before they essentially dropped the series designation. -dq From dancohoe at oxford.net Wed Nov 14 08:25:47 2001 From: dancohoe at oxford.net (Dan Cohoe) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:11:04 2005 Subject: More Finds for the musuem References: <017301c16ccc$a5763440$29701fd1@default> Message-ID: <3BF27EEB.CE4F4949@oxford.net> "John R. Keys Jr." wrote: > > Over the last few weeks I have found a few items, slim pickings right > now. > > - IBM 3174 1L controller with 2 terminals and keyboards > > - Tandy color computer ext floppy disk drive model FD501 > > - 20+ cartridges for Atari 2600, Jaguar, and Game Gear > > - A Nintendo R. O. B. just the robot missing battery cover. It was $2 > so I got it as a spare. > > - a Microline model 701-A 5V power supply, not sure what it goes with > > - 20+ mousepads > > - New in the box 2 TI joysticks for the TI99/4A > > - Apple III diskware program System Demonstration > > - digital VT100-AA terminal > > - Several books and manuals were also added to the collection > > The rest of the items are not old enough to list. I have a maintenance/information manual for the IBM 3174 Control Unit if you need it. regards, Dan Cohoe From allain at panix.com Wed Nov 14 08:34:46 2001 From: allain at panix.com (John Allain) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:11:04 2005 Subject: (SemiOT) USB 5 1/4 disk References: <002801c16c88$ae95f5e0$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> <200111131723.JAA25231@ellie.ssl.berkeley.edu> <5.1.0.14.2.20011113201447.01d556b0@sokieserv.dhs.org> <3BF230DE.7070406@aconit.org> Message-ID: <002e01c16d19$8237f5c0$8a0101ac@ibm23xhr06> > How feasible would it be to replace the 3.5" drive of a USB disk > with a 5-1/4" one? If I had to do this I'd take a 3.5disk>5.25cable adaptor, remove the connectors and replace them with their gender opposites to make an IDE 5.25disk>3.5cable adaptor, unless somebody can find Those. John A. From curt at atari-history.com Wed Nov 14 09:51:15 2001 From: curt at atari-history.com (Curt Vendel) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:11:04 2005 Subject: Corvus Floppy Drive? References: <001f01c16ca0$2af63430$0a00a8c0@cvendel> <200111140047.fAE0l1O57491@daemonweed.reanimators.org> <000d01c16cb6$24381f30$0a00a8c0@cvendel> <200111140358.fAE3wSv62823@daemonweed.reanimators.org> Message-ID: <001801c16d24$31e954f0$3135ff0a@cvendel> I raided Al Kossow's Corvus Concept PDF's yesterday, great stuff, a lot of work on his behave, major kudo's to him. Hmmmm..... The whole idea of designing the slot around the whole Apple II design is interesting and makes a lot of sense since Apple II's were really the mainstay of Corvus networks, IBM's came on later and Atari 800's were limited to a 64 node multiplexing network and did not have Omninet capabilities. If you run across the schematic I would be willing to pay for any copying and postage, thanks again Frank. Curt ----- Original Message ----- From: "Frank McConnell" To: Sent: Tuesday, November 13, 2001 10:58 PM Subject: Re: Corvus Floppy Drive? > "Curt Vendel" wrote: > > Thanks for the info. If you happen by a Corvus floppy in the future, > > keep me in mind, I'd be interested in it. Now if I can find some spec's > > on the 4 bus slots it would be fun to try and build a controller. I did a > > Did you get any disks? > > The bus slots are similar to Apple ][ slots. In fact I think > the Concept hard disk controller is really the Apple ][ Corvus > parallel-interface hard disk controller. > > You probably want to webulate to > where you will find several > scanned manuals including: > > ConceptHWRef.pdf - the Concept Hardware Reference > ConceptServiceMan.pdf - the Concept service manual > > Somewhere I have a (photocopied) schematic of the 8" floppy disk > controller too. I'll see if I can dig that out and scan it. > > -Frank McConnell > > > > From GOOI at oce.nl Wed Nov 14 09:46:34 2001 From: GOOI at oce.nl (Gooijen H) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:11:04 2005 Subject: blinkenlights for everybody - status update (2) Message-ID: Hi all. Things are progressing nicely. The core board is tested and works. I get the monitor prompt on the VT220 terminal connected to the RS-232 interface. That means there is also software for it. Go to the updated page http://home.hetnet.nl/~tshaj/pdpsite/homebrew/startframe.html Next steps are: 1) adjust monitor software so it runs without the RAM 5565 chip 2) build the I/O ports interface board 3) write the "low-level" in- and output routines 4) write the "stand-alone" pattern SW (the Cylon-eye on the DATA LEDs) 5) the real work: interface with Ersatz-11 (..John?) The monitor software (e11-6802.zip) already contains some SW but that has not yet ran; it just assembles without errors ... - Henk. From jbdigriz at dragonsweb.org Wed Nov 14 10:05:07 2001 From: jbdigriz at dragonsweb.org (James B. DiGriz) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:11:04 2005 Subject: Fw: Control Data Cyber 960 rescue interest? References: <7A9BACCEF0171D4FB77019F5104CDD372258ED@jeffserver.tegjeff.com> Message-ID: <3BF29633.2000504@dragonsweb.org> Douglas Quebbeman wrote: >>>http://members.iglou.com/dougq/cdc/cyber960.jpg >>> >>That's a photo of a 180, which he also has (or was it a 170?) and is >>working on getting running. The console in the photo I posted was for the >>960, which you can't see in the background. >> > > My understanding was that 180 was the series designation, 960 > was the model designation. In the 170 series they went about as > far as 170/855 before they essentially dropped the series > designation. > > -dq > > > That's my understanding as well, but I really need to some more homework on CDC's and will be the first to admit my relative ignorance. As regards any rescue efforts, I want to implore everyone not to besiege hapless admins in the Ga. University System with requests for information, machines, etc. USG cannot sell or transfer state property itself. We should be grateful for any support they can lend a rescue effort, but all this has to go through the state Dept. of Adminstrative Services, so let's don't put our friends behind the eight-ball, ok? I want to thank those parties who have offered a home, but my best guess and my gut instinct is that it's going to take the governor's approval and maybe an act of the legislature to take the 960 out of the state. If you're playing at that level, you're way ahead of me here. Freankly, I'd rather it stay here myself. That doesn't mean it can't be a resource for everyone, though. As I said, I'll be putting up a list shortly to coordinate activity. I especially encourage my fellow Georgians to step forward, and I thank those who have already. later, jbdigriz From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Wed Nov 14 10:37:42 2001 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (Ben Franchuk) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:11:04 2005 Subject: Xenix ? References: <1113.718T2700T1706185optimus@canit.se> Message-ID: <3BF29DD6.2C86235F@jetnet.ab.ca> Iggy Drougge wrote: > You really have very short lines, Ben. Stupid auto formating... > Since when was this a requirement of a UNIX? And why should self-compilation > and C compiler sources be available? First I am porting to a new machine. Secondly I am looking for a simple developent system as it does not make sense to me to have a P-III to compile a "hello world" program. Right now a Floppy disk is miles into the future. > Try http://pdp10.nocrew.org/. Nice PDP-10 link but it has very little on rolling your own computer. > >(Try and fit your favorite web browser in 8 meg or less) Ok , now can you get one that fits in 128Kb dos 3 machine? :) Ben Franchuk. -- Live "Pre-historic Cpu's" -- and you thought they were extinct. www.jetnet.ab.ca/users/bfranchuk/index.html From korpela at ssl.berkeley.edu Wed Nov 14 10:38:50 2001 From: korpela at ssl.berkeley.edu (Eric J. Korpela) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:11:04 2005 Subject: Xenix ? In-Reply-To: <1113.718T2700T1706185optimus@canit.se> from Iggy Drougge at "Nov 14, 2001 02:50:54 am" Message-ID: <200111141638.IAA22104@ellie.ssl.berkeley.edu> >ELKS and MINIX also are not completely open source OS's in that some >features like >self compilation and C Compiler sources are not available. ELKS was completely open source last time I checked although the license might not be pure GPL. (GPL isn't the only open source license). The Minix I have on my 286 michine certainly has a compiler. Since the same Minix works on an 8086, the compiler is there. The problem is memory on the 8086 machine isn't quite enough, you need to run the compiler passes separately. Eric From aw288 at osfn.org Wed Nov 14 10:52:42 2001 From: aw288 at osfn.org (William Donzelli) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:11:04 2005 Subject: Fw: Control Data Cyber 960 rescue interest? In-Reply-To: <3BF29633.2000504@dragonsweb.org> Message-ID: > I want to thank those parties who have offered a home, but my best guess > and my gut instinct is that it's going to take the governor's approval > and maybe an act of the legislature to take the 960 out of the state. If > you're playing at that level, you're way ahead of me here. A petition would certainly not hurt. Maybe some of us could get bigshot friends to sign on. William Donzelli aw288@osfn.org From dlinder at uiuc.edu Wed Nov 14 11:06:21 2001 From: dlinder at uiuc.edu (Dan Linder) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:11:04 2005 Subject: HP 3000 No More Message-ID: hey list- Just announced on /., the venerable HP3000 line will join HP calculators in HP's new "we don't want to do cool stuff anymore" business model. Well, maybe that's harsh. But it is still another sad day for computing. - Dan -- Dan Linder / dlinder @ uiuc.edu Graduate Student, College of Engineering, Dept. of Computer Science - Dept. of Computer Science Teaching Assistant - DRES Computer Accessibility Researcher From dittman at dittman.net Wed Nov 14 12:10:41 2001 From: dittman at dittman.net (Eric Dittman) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:11:07 2005 Subject: Fw: Control Data Cyber 960 rescue interest? In-Reply-To: <3BF29633.2000504@dragonsweb.org> from "James B. DiGriz" at Nov 14, 2001 11:05:07 AM Message-ID: <200111141810.fAEIAfC28950@narnia.int.dittman.net> > As regards any rescue efforts, I want to implore everyone not to besiege > hapless admins in the Ga. University System with requests for > information, machines, etc. USG cannot sell or transfer state property > itself. We should be grateful for any support they can lend a rescue > effort, but all this has to go through the state Dept. of Adminstrative > Services, so let's don't put our friends behind the eight-ball, ok? > > I want to thank those parties who have offered a home, but my best guess > and my gut instinct is that it's going to take the governor's approval > and maybe an act of the legislature to take the 960 out of the state. If > you're playing at that level, you're way ahead of me here. There are a couple of steps I'd recommend: 1) Calling the University Board of Regents and try to arrange a time to discuss the issue with them, explaining the desire to preserve a bit of history. If they can't set aside some time, ask to send a letter. I would recommend trying to bring the president of the University on board, too. 2) Call your state representative's office to see if they would be willing to discuss the issue. Try the governor's office, too. What you want to stress is this is a part of computing history, and there are people willing to preserve the system at no cost to the state and University. - Eric Dittman dittman@dittman.net Check out the DEC Enthusiasts Club at http://www.dittman.net/ From dittman at dittman.net Wed Nov 14 12:28:17 2001 From: dittman at dittman.net (Eric Dittman) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:11:07 2005 Subject: QBUS FDDI (DEFQA) Message-ID: <200111141828.fAEISHE28998@narnia.int.dittman.net> I'm in the process of converting most of my systems to FDDI, but a QBUS FDDI adapter is holding me up. Does anyone have a DEFQA they want to sell or trade? -- Eric Dittman dittman@dittman.net Check out the DEC Enthusiasts Club at http://www.dittman.net/ From cbajpai at mediaone.net Wed Nov 14 12:29:20 2001 From: cbajpai at mediaone.net (Chandra Bajpai) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:11:07 2005 Subject: Fw: Control Data Cyber 960 rescue interest? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <000001c16d3a$47dbc340$b97ba8c0@ne.mediaone.net> >From what era is the Cyber 960 from? 1960's? Is it considered a supercomputer (in it's day)? -Chandra -----Original Message----- From: owner-classiccmp@classiccmp.org [mailto:owner-classiccmp@classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Sellam Ismail Sent: Tuesday, November 13, 2001 6:16 PM To: 'classiccmp@classiccmp.org' Subject: Re: Fw: Control Data Cyber 960 rescue interest? On Tue, 13 Nov 2001, Jeffrey S. Sharp wrote: > On Tue, 13 Nov 2001, Sellam Ismail wrote: > > > Here's a picture of John at the console demonstrating the machine to > > a group of us at the last VCF Europa: > > How big is it in total? The processor section itself is the size of a pickup truck. The power supply and some other component of the power system each take up a the equivalent of a double cabinet rack. Then there's the multiple washer-sized disk drives. It takes up roughly 400sqft. Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------ ------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org From RCini at congressfinancial.com Wed Nov 14 12:30:48 2001 From: RCini at congressfinancial.com (Cini, Richard) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:11:07 2005 Subject: Altair 8K BASIC configuration Message-ID: <497A9E0467D2D2119B760090271EB8E5879F5A@MAIL10> While trying to get the 8K BASIC to work with the Altair emulator, I've figured-out that there must be some way for the user to define, using the sense switches, which I/O ports could be used for the console. Does anyone have the manual for 8K BASIC or handwritten notes on the topic? I need to find the definition of the switches at startup because I'm losing console input on the emulator when using 8K BASIC. Thanks. ========================== Richard A. Cini, Jr. Congress Financial Corporation 1133 Avenue of the Americas 30th Floor New York, NY 10036 (212) 545-4402 (212) 840-6259 (facsimile) From aw288 at osfn.org Wed Nov 14 12:49:48 2001 From: aw288 at osfn.org (William Donzelli) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:11:07 2005 Subject: Fw: Control Data Cyber 960 rescue interest? In-Reply-To: <15345.39366.975967.487293@phaduka.neurotica.com> Message-ID: > Anyone have any architectural or performance info for this machine? Good info at: http://www.tno.nl/instit/fel/museum/computer/en/cdcsystE.html > I assume it's a memory-to-memory vector machine like the earlier Cybers? I do not think the 180s were vector machines. They may have had some vector capabilities, but they were never number crunchers. I have heard some people say (may be in jest) that the 180s I/O processors were faster than the main processor. William Donzelli aw288@osfn.org From aw288 at osfn.org Wed Nov 14 12:51:58 2001 From: aw288 at osfn.org (William Donzelli) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:11:07 2005 Subject: Fw: Control Data Cyber 960 rescue interest? In-Reply-To: <000001c16d3a$47dbc340$b97ba8c0@ne.mediaone.net> Message-ID: > From what era is the Cyber 960 from? 1960's? Early 1980s. > Is it considered a supercomputer (in it's day)? No. Just a mainframe. William Donzelli aw288@osfn.org From mcguire at neurotica.com Wed Nov 14 12:59:56 2001 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:11:07 2005 Subject: Fw: Control Data Cyber 960 rescue interest? In-Reply-To: RE: Fw: Control Data Cyber 960 rescue interest? (Chandra Bajpai) References: <000001c16d3a$47dbc340$b97ba8c0@ne.mediaone.net> Message-ID: <15346.48940.835586.835343@phaduka.neurotica.com> On November 14, Chandra Bajpai wrote: > >From what era is the Cyber 960 from? 1960's? > Is it considered a supercomputer (in it's day)? This would be a mid-80's system I believe. -Dave -- Dave McGuire St. Petersburg, FL From healyzh at aracnet.com Wed Nov 14 13:15:24 2001 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:11:07 2005 Subject: The TECO manuals In-Reply-To: <20011114012558.E12192@mrbill.net> Message-ID: >Finally dug again and found the TECO manuals I talked about a few >weeks ago. Two books: > >The bigger one: (1/2" thick or so) >--------------- >cover: "decsystem10 TECO" >first page: document number: DEC-10-ETEE-D > "decsystem 10 TECO > TEXT EDITOR AND CORRECTOR PROGRAM > PROGRAMMER'S REFERENCE MANUAL > This manual reflects the software as of version 23 > of TECO" >copyright: 1968,69,70,71,72 > >The smaller one: (1/8" thick or so) >--------------- >cover: "decsystem 10 INTRODUCTION TO TECO (TEXT EDITOR AND CORRECTOR) >first page: document number: DEC-10-UTECA-A-D > "This document reflects the software as of version 23 > of TECO" >copyright: 1971,72,73,74,75 (third printing, june 1975) > >If there's enough interest, and nobody else has already put these >online somewhere, I'll get these scanned to JPG, TIF, or PDF this >weekend. What I've got online is the following "Standard TECO, Text Editor and COrrector for the VAX-11, PDP-11, PDP-10, and PDP-8, User's Guide and Language Reference Manual, May 1985 Edition". It can be found in the documentation section of my PDP-10 emulation web page at: http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/pdp10emu.htm I've also got a copy of the "TECO pocket guide" from '78 (it covers TECO-8, -10, and -11) that while I've scanned, doesn't look to be online yet. I for one would definilty like to see PDF's of what you've got, there is a definite lack of decsystem10 manuals online. Zane -- | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator | | healyzh@aracnet.com (primary) | OpenVMS Enthusiast | | | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | PDP-10 Emulation and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | From healyzh at aracnet.com Wed Nov 14 13:17:22 2001 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:11:07 2005 Subject: HP 3000 No More In-Reply-To: Message-ID: >hey list- > >Just announced on /., the venerable HP3000 line will join HP calculators >in HP's new "we don't want to do cool stuff anymore" business model. > >Well, maybe that's harsh. But it is still another sad day for computing. Um, what are they going to run MPE (or whatever it's called) on? What's the migration path? UNIX? Zane -- | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator | | healyzh@aracnet.com (primary) | OpenVMS Enthusiast | | | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | PDP-10 Emulation and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | From kapteynr at cboe.com Wed Nov 14 13:23:48 2001 From: kapteynr at cboe.com (Rob Kapteyn) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:11:07 2005 Subject: Altair 8K BASIC configuration Message-ID: <6D5A04499826D311811100902760DDCF0CE02A62@msx1.cboe.com> I have the manual somewhere that explains this. I add a patch that makes the console output appear on the VDM-1. Other choices are teletype, etc. Unfortunately, I have temporarily misplaced this all. I have no idea when I will find it. If anyone else can help, please do so. -Rob -----Original Message----- From: Cini, Richard [SMTP:RCini@congressfinancial.com] Sent: Wednesday, November 14, 2001 12:31 PM To: 'ClassCompList' Subject: Altair 8K BASIC configuration While trying to get the 8K BASIC to work with the Altair emulator, I've figured-out that there must be some way for the user to define, using the sense switches, which I/O ports could be used for the console. Does anyone have the manual for 8K BASIC or handwritten notes on the topic? I need to find the definition of the switches at startup because I'm losing console input on the emulator when using 8K BASIC. Thanks. ========================== Richard A. Cini, Jr. Congress Financial Corporation 1133 Avenue of the Americas 30th Floor New York, NY 10036 (212) 545-4402 (212) 840-6259 (facsimile) From vze2mnvr at verizon.net Wed Nov 14 13:24:40 2001 From: vze2mnvr at verizon.net (Ian Koller) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:11:07 2005 Subject: Fw: Control Data Cyber 960 rescue interest? References: <200111141810.fAEIAfC28950@narnia.int.dittman.net> Message-ID: <3BF2C4F8.88458761@verizon.net> Eric Dittman wrote: > preserve the system at no cost to the state and University. You must offer them cash for it, because if they don't sell it, it is at a cost to the state and the university. Eric Dittman wrote: > > > As regards any rescue efforts, I want to implore everyone not to besiege > > hapless admins in the Ga. University System with requests for > > information, machines, etc. USG cannot sell or transfer state property > > itself. We should be grateful for any support they can lend a rescue > > effort, but all this has to go through the state Dept. of Adminstrative > > Services, so let's don't put our friends behind the eight-ball, ok? > > > > I want to thank those parties who have offered a home, but my best guess > > and my gut instinct is that it's going to take the governor's approval > > and maybe an act of the legislature to take the 960 out of the state. If > > you're playing at that level, you're way ahead of me here. > > There are a couple of steps I'd recommend: > > 1) Calling the University Board of Regents and try to arrange a time > to discuss the issue with them, explaining the desire to preserve > a bit of history. If they can't set aside some time, ask to send > a letter. I would recommend trying to bring the president of the > University on board, too. > > 2) Call your state representative's office to see if they would be > willing to discuss the issue. Try the governor's office, too. > > What you want to stress is this is a part of computing history, and > there are people willing to preserve the system at no cost to the > state and University. > - > Eric Dittman > dittman@dittman.net > Check out the DEC Enthusiasts Club at http://www.dittman.net/ From r_beaudry at hotmail.com Wed Nov 14 13:32:10 2001 From: r_beaudry at hotmail.com (Rich Beaudry) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:11:07 2005 Subject: Xebec Sider for Apple II Message-ID: Hello all, I recently received a Xebec Sider drive (external hard drive for the Apple II) -- Thanks RE! It did not, however, come with the card that goes in the Apple II, nor did it come with the cable. Judging by their going price on eBay, I know this is a futile attempt, but does anybody have a spare card/cable that they'd be willing to part with (or could be pried out of their hands by $)? I'd rather not pay eBay prices, so perhaps a trade?? Anyway, let me know, and try not to laugh too hard.... Thanks! Rich B. "They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety." -- Ben Franklin From menadeau at mediaone.net Wed Nov 14 13:29:52 2001 From: menadeau at mediaone.net (Michael Nadeau) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:11:07 2005 Subject: HP 3000: End of the Line References: Message-ID: <087b01c16d42$c03d5a80$0b01a8c0@ValuedCustomer> Looks like HP is pulling the plug on the 30-year-old 3000 line: http://www.hp.com/hpinfo/newsroom/press/14nov01a.htm Michael Nadeau Editorial Services 603-893-2379 From dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com Wed Nov 14 13:39:23 2001 From: dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com (Douglas Quebbeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:11:07 2005 Subject: Fw: Control Data Cyber 960 rescue interest? Message-ID: <7A9BACCEF0171D4FB77019F5104CDD372258F2@jeffserver.tegjeff.com> > From what era is the Cyber 960 from? 1960's? > Is it considered a supercomputer (in it's day)? Its primary architecture dates from the early 1960s. That was the 60-bit architecture designed by Seymour Cray. But this model also implements a virtual-mode in which the CPU operates in 64-bit mode. The 960 was a machine of mid-1980s manufacture; they were being sold through the early 1990s. Tidbit: "The Cyber 960 and all its peripherals took up approximately 1,800 square feet of space and required over 20 tons of air conditioning to keep cool." -http://www.csustan.edu/oit/banner/cyber.html The Georgia machine: http://www.usg.edu/oiit/pubs/update/spring2000/article5.html GIT was still running PLATO as recently as 1990, but was considering migration to NovaNET. From dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com Wed Nov 14 13:40:55 2001 From: dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com (Douglas Quebbeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:11:07 2005 Subject: Fw: Control Data Cyber 960 rescue interest? Message-ID: <7A9BACCEF0171D4FB77019F5104CDD372258F3@jeffserver.tegjeff.com> > > Anyone have any architectural or performance info for this machine? > > Good info at: > > http://www.tno.nl/instit/fel/museum/computer/en/cdcsystE.html > > > I assume it's a memory-to-memory vector machine like the earlier Cybers? > > I do not think the 180s were vector machines. They may have had some > vector capabilities, but they were never number crunchers. I have heard > some people say (may be in jest) that the 180s I/O processors were faster > than the main processor. The Cyber 960 was not in the same model line as the Cyber 205, which was the successor (or one of the successors) to the CDC STAR, the vector-processor line to which you refer. Regards, -dq From dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com Wed Nov 14 13:41:54 2001 From: dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com (Douglas Quebbeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:11:07 2005 Subject: Fw: Control Data Cyber 960 rescue interest? Message-ID: <7A9BACCEF0171D4FB77019F5104CDD372258F4@jeffserver.tegjeff.com> > > From what era is the Cyber 960 from? 1960's? > > Early 1980s. > > > Is it considered a supercomputer (in it's day)? > > No. Just a mainframe. Yup. Though, it's great-grampa was a supercomputer. The first, in fact. -dq From foo at siconic.com Wed Nov 14 13:45:46 2001 From: foo at siconic.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:11:07 2005 Subject: Fw: Control Data Cyber 960 rescue interest? In-Reply-To: <7A9BACCEF0171D4FB77019F5104CDD372258EC@jeffserver.tegjeff.com> Message-ID: On Wed, 14 Nov 2001, Douglas Quebbeman wrote: > > > > http://www.siconic.com/crap/John%20Zabolitzky%20Demonstraing%2 > > > > 0Cyber%20960%204.jpg > > > > > > Sellam, you're the most prominent fixture in the picture! > > > > Actually, that's John Zabolitzky at the console. My hair is > > not nearly that gray (yet, in spite of it all ;) > > But aren't you the guy on the left? I was talking in terms > of the photo's area... If that was me on the left, that would have been some pretty slick picture taking, since I'm the one who shot it. :) Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org From jfoust at threedee.com Wed Nov 14 13:49:46 2001 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:11:07 2005 Subject: H7140 PDP 11/24 Power Supply Advice In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20011113115432.00a70500@mcmanis.com> References: <4.3.2.7.2.20011112200334.03c960e0@cirithi> Message-ID: <5.0.0.25.0.20011114134822.0317c008@pc> At 12:08 PM 11/13/2001 -0800, Chuck McManis wrote: >If that makes your product fail more often and you have to repair them (warranty etc) then you subtract that cost, but the "argument" for "value engineering" as it is euphemistically referred to, is simply numbers. Well run businesses run exactly like your computers Tony with very similar schematics, however money replaces current and credit replaces voltage. Wow! Is there another set of equations that would explain why, that if I had a major head injury that impaired my mental functioning, I could still get a job in marketing at the average big company? - John From mcguire at neurotica.com Wed Nov 14 13:57:41 2001 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:11:07 2005 Subject: Fw: Control Data Cyber 960 rescue interest? In-Reply-To: RE: Fw: Control Data Cyber 960 rescue interest? (Douglas Quebbeman) References: <7A9BACCEF0171D4FB77019F5104CDD372258F4@jeffserver.tegjeff.com> Message-ID: <15346.52405.145498.879196@phaduka.neurotica.com> On November 14, Douglas Quebbeman wrote: > > > From what era is the Cyber 960 from? 1960's? > > > > Early 1980s. > > > > > Is it considered a supercomputer (in it's day)? > > > > No. Just a mainframe. > > Yup. Though, it's great-grampa was a supercomputer. The > first, in fact. I assume you mean the 6600. *sigh* *drool* -Dave -- Dave McGuire St. Petersburg, FL From jbdigriz at dragonsweb.org Wed Nov 14 14:00:46 2001 From: jbdigriz at dragonsweb.org (James B. DiGriz) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:11:07 2005 Subject: Fw: Control Data Cyber 960 rescue interest? References: Message-ID: <3BF2CD6E.7040201@dragonsweb.org> William Donzelli wrote: >>I want to thank those parties who have offered a home, but my best guess >>and my gut instinct is that it's going to take the governor's approval >>and maybe an act of the legislature to take the 960 out of the state. If >>you're playing at that level, you're way ahead of me here. >> > > A petition would certainly not hurt. Maybe some of us could get bigshot > friends to sign on. > > William Donzelli > aw288@osfn.org > > > Georgia is one of those places where petitions don't go over real well unless they're unnecessary to begin with. Why presuppose a need to go backing 'em into a corner? That's the way it'll be seen, and it would just kill what support there may be. A petition indicates opposition in their eyes, too, and that gets them to wondering what the other side may have to offer. I can guarantee you the scrap dealers, for instance, can get more signatures, and have more pull in Atlanta. They put food in a lot of mouths, and that's not to be aneezed at in rural Georgia. There are enough whipped dogs here anyway, that's a big part of the state's problems, probably the biggest. 10% of the population is behind bars, and people think this is a good thing. Let's give 'em a chance, not kill what support there may be. I've got some irons in the fire here. Please don't let's screw things up turning this into some kind of "cause". This is getting way too political, and that's not the fucking point. Geez, next thing somebody will be saying there oughta be a law. You can count me out of further involvement if things go that way. Let's try to focus on a win-win scenario for everybody, instead. Thanks, jbdigriz From jbdigriz at dragonsweb.org Wed Nov 14 14:13:58 2001 From: jbdigriz at dragonsweb.org (James B. DiGriz) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:11:07 2005 Subject: Fw: Control Data Cyber 960 rescue interest? References: <200111141810.fAEIAfC28950@narnia.int.dittman.net> Message-ID: <3BF2D086.80900@dragonsweb.org> Eric Dittman wrote: >>As regards any rescue efforts, I want to implore everyone not to besiege >>hapless admins in the Ga. University System with requests for >>information, machines, etc. USG cannot sell or transfer state property >>itself. We should be grateful for any support they can lend a rescue >>effort, but all this has to go through the state Dept. of Adminstrative >>Services, so let's don't put our friends behind the eight-ball, ok? >> >>I want to thank those parties who have offered a home, but my best guess >>and my gut instinct is that it's going to take the governor's approval >>and maybe an act of the legislature to take the 960 out of the state. If >>you're playing at that level, you're way ahead of me here. >> > > There are a couple of steps I'd recommend: > > 1) Calling the University Board of Regents and try to arrange a time > to discuss the issue with them, explaining the desire to preserve > a bit of history. If they can't set aside some time, ask to send > a letter. I would recommend trying to bring the president of the > University on board, too. > > 2) Call your state representative's office to see if they would be > willing to discuss the issue. Try the governor's office, too. > > What you want to stress is this is a part of computing history, and > there are people willing to preserve the system at no cost to the > state and University. > - > Eric Dittman > dittman@dittman.net > Check out the DEC Enthusiasts Club at http://www.dittman.net/ > > > Yes, those are excellent suggestions and wlll no doubt come into play at some point, in some fashion, but the best way I see to approach this is as a standard service procurement contract, through DOAS. At this point, actually getting the property is secondary to seeing that it remains worth getting. USG has nothing say about that once the DOAS contractor shows up to remove it. That's what I'm focusing on right now. Bidding on it at auction will be the easy part. I'm getting that people just aren't realizing how different things are here. later, jbdigriz From dittman at dittman.net Wed Nov 14 14:14:42 2001 From: dittman at dittman.net (Eric Dittman) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:11:07 2005 Subject: Fw: Control Data Cyber 960 rescue interest? In-Reply-To: <3BF2C4F8.88458761@verizon.net> from "Ian Koller" at Nov 14, 2001 02:24:40 PM Message-ID: <200111142014.fAEKEgQ29344@narnia.int.dittman.net> > > preserve the system at no cost to the state and University. > > You must offer them cash for it, because if they don't sell it, > it is at a cost to the state and the university. Shouldn't it be fully depreciated by now? -- Eric Dittman dittman@dittman.net Check out the DEC Enthusiasts Club at http://www.dittman.net/ From dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com Wed Nov 14 14:18:56 2001 From: dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com (Douglas Quebbeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:11:07 2005 Subject: Altair 8K BASIC configuration Message-ID: <7A9BACCEF0171D4FB77019F5104CDD372258F6@jeffserver.tegjeff.com> Rich- I'll check the manual tonight. -dq > -----Original Message----- > From: Cini, Richard [mailto:RCini@congressfinancial.com] > Sent: Wednesday, November 14, 2001 1:31 PM > To: 'ClassCompList' > Subject: Altair 8K BASIC configuration > > > While trying to get the 8K BASIC to work with the Altair > emulator, I've > figured-out that there must be some way for the user to > define, using the > sense switches, which I/O ports could be used for the console. > > Does anyone have the manual for 8K BASIC or handwritten notes > on the topic? > I need to find the definition of the switches at startup > because I'm losing > console input on the emulator when using 8K BASIC. > > Thanks. > > ========================== > Richard A. Cini, Jr. > Congress Financial Corporation > 1133 Avenue of the Americas > 30th Floor > New York, NY 10036 > (212) 545-4402 > (212) 840-6259 (facsimile) > From dlinder at uiuc.edu Wed Nov 14 14:24:22 2001 From: dlinder at uiuc.edu (Dan Linder) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:11:07 2005 Subject: HP 3000 No More In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Wed, 14 Nov 2001, Zane H. Healy wrote: > >Just announced on /., the venerable HP3000 line will join HP calculators > >in HP's new "we don't want to do cool stuff anymore" business model. > > Um, what are they going to run MPE (or whatever it's called) on? What's > the migration path? UNIX? According to the press release, they want you to migrate to 9000's or their PC servers products. As for MPE on other platforms.. tempting. They should open source the whole damn thing. That would be an *interesting* read. - Dan From dogas at bellsouth.net Wed Nov 14 14:27:17 2001 From: dogas at bellsouth.net (Mike) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:11:07 2005 Subject: Altair 8K BASIC configuration References: <497A9E0467D2D2119B760090271EB8E5879F5A@MAIL10> Message-ID: <003601c16d4a$c2f33210$d9db3fd0@DOMAIN> Hi. Sense Switch Terminal Load Setting Switches Switches Channels Device 2sio 0 none none 20,21 (2 stop bits) 2sio 1 a12 a8 20,21 (1 stop bit) sio 2 a13 a9 0,1 acr 3 a13, a12 a9,a8 6,7 4pio 4 a14 a10 40,41,42,43 pio 5 a14,a12 a10,a8 4,5 hsr 6 a14,a13 a10,a9 46,47 nonstandard term 14 no term 16 ;) - Mike: dogas@bellsouth.net ----- Original Message ----- From: Cini, Richard To: 'ClassCompList' Sent: Wednesday, November 14, 2001 1:30 PM Subject: Altair 8K BASIC configuration > While trying to get the 8K BASIC to work with the Altair emulator, I've > figured-out that there must be some way for the user to define, using the > sense switches, which I/O ports could be used for the console. > > Does anyone have the manual for 8K BASIC or handwritten notes on the topic? > I need to find the definition of the switches at startup because I'm losing > console input on the emulator when using 8K BASIC. > > Thanks. > > ========================== > Richard A. Cini, Jr. > Congress Financial Corporation > 1133 Avenue of the Americas > 30th Floor > New York, NY 10036 > (212) 545-4402 > (212) 840-6259 (facsimile) > From jbdigriz at dragonsweb.org Wed Nov 14 14:58:35 2001 From: jbdigriz at dragonsweb.org (James B. DiGriz) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:11:07 2005 Subject: Fw: Control Data Cyber 960 rescue interest? References: <200111141810.fAEIAfC28950@narnia.int.dittman.net> <3BF2D086.80900@dragonsweb.org> Message-ID: <3BF2DAFB.9060504@dragonsweb.org> James B. DiGriz wrote: >... That's what I'm focusing on right now. Bidding on > it at auction will be the easy part. > Or a transfer to a qualifying org. jbdigriz From mikeford at socal.rr.com Wed Nov 14 14:02:06 2001 From: mikeford at socal.rr.com (Mike Ford) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:11:07 2005 Subject: USB 5 1/4 disk In-Reply-To: <3BF230DE.7070406@aconit.org> References: <002801c16c88$ae95f5e0$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> <200111131723.JAA25231@ellie.ssl.berkeley.edu> <5.1.0.14.2.20011113201447.01d556b0@sokieserv.dhs.org> Message-ID: >How feasible would it be to replace the 3.5" drive of a USB disk with a >5-1/4" one? > > -- HBP Thats what I was wondering. Most of the USB stuff isn't breaking new ground, just tacking USB into the middle of older designs, and don't most motherboards still accept both types of floppy? From mikeford at socal.rr.com Wed Nov 14 15:09:13 2001 From: mikeford at socal.rr.com (Mike Ford) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:11:07 2005 Subject: Fw: Control Data Cyber 960 rescue interest? In-Reply-To: <3BF2CD6E.7040201@dragonsweb.org> References: Message-ID: Maybe I am being simple, but putting in the top bid seems like the sure route to acquiring this unit. Anybody have a CLUE as to its value as scrap? From donm at cts.com Wed Nov 14 15:18:15 2001 From: donm at cts.com (Don Maslin) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:11:07 2005 Subject: Fw: Control Data Cyber 960 rescue interest? In-Reply-To: <3BF2D086.80900@dragonsweb.org> Message-ID: On Wed, 14 Nov 2001, James B. DiGriz wrote: > Eric Dittman wrote: > > >>As regards any rescue efforts, I want to implore everyone not to besiege > >>hapless admins in the Ga. University System with requests for > >>information, machines, etc. USG cannot sell or transfer state property > >>itself. We should be grateful for any support they can lend a rescue > >>effort, but all this has to go through the state Dept. of Adminstrative > >>Services, so let's don't put our friends behind the eight-ball, ok? > Yes, those are excellent suggestions and wlll no doubt come into play at > some point, in some fashion, but the best way I see to approach this is > as a standard service procurement contract, through DOAS. At this point, > actually getting the property is secondary to seeing that it remains > worth getting. USG has nothing say about that once the DOAS contractor > shows up to remove it. That's what I'm focusing on right now. Bidding on > it at auction will be the easy part. Perhaps the `saviour' effort might succed better if couched in terms of a bid to DOAS to remove, haul away, and preserve the machine in operational form if such could be put together. - don From dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com Wed Nov 14 15:25:56 2001 From: dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com (Douglas Quebbeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:11:07 2005 Subject: Fw: Control Data Cyber 960 rescue interest? Message-ID: <7A9BACCEF0171D4FB77019F5104CDD372258FC@jeffserver.tegjeff.com> > On November 14, Douglas Quebbeman wrote: > > > > From what era is the Cyber 960 from? 1960's? > > > > > > Early 1980s. > > > > > > > Is it considered a supercomputer (in it's day)? > > > > > > No. Just a mainframe. > > > > Yup. Though, it's great-grampa was a supercomputer. The > > first, in fact. > > I assume you mean the 6600. *sigh* *drool* A friend has a core stack from the one we used to have in Bloomington, IN... as well as a platter from one of the Bryant drives. I have a roll of black, blank, oiled (pretty dry now) paper tape from the CDC's high-speed punch/reader. And my manuals, still... and the emulator, under construction, *slowly* under construction... Oh, I found an *EOI* (end-of-information) card the other day, that was a 6/7/8/9 punch in column 1... -dq From dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com Wed Nov 14 15:26:59 2001 From: dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com (Douglas Quebbeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:11:07 2005 Subject: Fw: Control Data Cyber 960 rescue interest? Message-ID: <7A9BACCEF0171D4FB77019F5104CDD372258FD@jeffserver.tegjeff.com> > > > > > http://www.siconic.com/crap/John%20Zabolitzky%20Demonstraing%2 > > > > > 0Cyber%20960%204.jpg > > > > > > > > Sellam, you're the most prominent fixture in the picture! > > > > > > Actually, that's John Zabolitzky at the console. My hair is > > > not nearly that gray (yet, in spite of it all ;) > > > > But aren't you the guy on the left? I was talking in terms > > of the photo's area... > > If that was me on the left, that would have been some pretty slick picture > taking, since I'm the one who shot it. heh... hey, I've heard that they have cameras like that out in California... -dq From dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com Wed Nov 14 15:29:53 2001 From: dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com (Douglas Quebbeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:11:07 2005 Subject: HP 3000 No More Message-ID: <7A9BACCEF0171D4FB77019F5104CDD372258FE@jeffserver.tegjeff.com> > According to the press release, they want you to migrate to 9000's or > their PC servers products. > > As for MPE on other platforms.. tempting. They should open source the > whole damn thing. That would be an *interesting* read. fat chance. A group tried to liberate Domain/OS, which they didn't even write, to no avail... I think Bob Supnik had the same response from them regarding the HP2000/2100 software. Suits. Can't live with 'em, probably couldn't live without 'em. -dq From jbdigriz at dragonsweb.org Wed Nov 14 15:53:52 2001 From: jbdigriz at dragonsweb.org (James B. DiGriz) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:11:07 2005 Subject: Fw: Control Data Cyber 960 rescue interest? References: <200111141810.fAEIAfC28950@narnia.int.dittman.net> <3BF2C4F8.88458761@verizon.net> Message-ID: <3BF2E7F0.5010307@dragonsweb.org> Ian Koller wrote: > Eric Dittman wrote: > > >>preserve the system at no cost to the state and University. >> > > You must offer them cash for it, because if they don't sell it, > it is at a cost to the state and the university. > > 1800 sq. ft. of prime floorspace occupied by idle hardware is a much greater cost to the state. The real question for the state is whether it gets more value from paying extra for deinstallation to transfer or sell it as a used 960, than from just tearing it out and selling it for scrap. Unless somebody can make a generous, contingent endowment to the University, or something of that nature, it'll probably hinge on what kind of bids DOAS thinks it can get for deinstallation vs. plain removal. That's where to attack the problem, although it may or may not take input from interested parties for the dollars-and-cents value of intangibles such as historical interest, educational value, state pride, and so on, to be taken into acount. Somebody has to plug the options into the ERP package, if nothing else, if you follow me. jbdigriz From foo at siconic.com Wed Nov 14 16:10:33 2001 From: foo at siconic.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:11:07 2005 Subject: Fw: Control Data Cyber 960 rescue interest? In-Reply-To: <3BF2C4F8.88458761@verizon.net> Message-ID: On Wed, 14 Nov 2001, Ian Koller wrote: > You must offer them cash for it, because if they don't sell it, it is > at a cost to the state and the university. Hardly. As long as the rescuers are prepared to cover all de-isntallation and moving fees, there is no cost to the university, and they'd be hard pressed to put any sort of worthwhile figure on an early 1980s era mainframe computer system. The particulars in this case might prove otherwise, but it would be unreasonable for the university to expect anything. At the very most, they should want scrap value, but I would hope they would see the higher historic value in this machine and be cooperative with rescue efforts. Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org From foo at siconic.com Wed Nov 14 16:14:33 2001 From: foo at siconic.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:11:08 2005 Subject: Fw: Control Data Cyber 960 rescue interest? In-Reply-To: <3BF2CD6E.7040201@dragonsweb.org> Message-ID: On Wed, 14 Nov 2001, James B. DiGriz wrote: > Georgia is one of those places where petitions don't go over real well > unless they're unnecessary to begin with. > > Why presuppose a need to go backing 'em into a corner? That's the way > it'll be seen, and it would just kill what support there may be. A > petition indicates opposition in their eyes, too, and that gets them to > wondering what the other side may have to offer. I can guarantee you the > scrap dealers, for instance, can get more signatures, and have more pull > in Atlanta. They put food in a lot of mouths, and that's not to be > aneezed at in rural Georgia. There are enough whipped dogs here anyway, > that's a big part of the state's problems, probably the biggest. 10% of > the population is behind bars, and people think this is a good thing. > > Let's give 'em a chance, not kill what support there may be. I've got > some irons in the fire here. Please don't let's screw things up turning > this into some kind of "cause". This is getting way too political, and > that's not the fucking point. > > Geez, next thing somebody will be saying there oughta be a law. You can > count me out of further involvement if things go that way. Let's try to > focus on a win-win scenario for everybody, instead. James, I assure you William was trying to be helpful and had your interests at heart. He's from the North, and he's apparently not familiar with your good-ole-boy Southern ways ;) >From my cursory knowledge of Southern deal-making, it would seem that if you can get someone in the DOAS (was that the acronym for the agency responsible for disposing of the system?) in your pocket, I'm sure you could get the machine released into your hands for some minor kickback. But be careful what you wish for. Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org From jbdigriz at dragonsweb.org Wed Nov 14 16:34:39 2001 From: jbdigriz at dragonsweb.org (James B. DiGriz) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:11:08 2005 Subject: Fw: Control Data Cyber 960 rescue interest? References: Message-ID: <3BF2F17F.7060001@dragonsweb.org> Mike Ford wrote: > Maybe I am being simple, but putting in the top bid seems like the sure > route to acquiring this unit. > You don't get to bid on it on site, and then remove it. It goes to DOAS first. Therein lies the rub. You wanna bid on a Cyber in known operatonal condition, or what may turn out to be a useless pile of junk? If they came up for auction every day, it'd be a different matter. > Anybody have a CLUE as to its value as scrap? > Apperently it's not insignificant. Supposedly there is considerable gold on the circuit boards. May be water cooler myth, can anyone confirm or deny? Good question, though. Need a figure, as a baseline. On the to do list, unless somebody has an idea. jbdigriz From west at tseinc.com Wed Nov 14 04:39:18 2001 From: west at tseinc.com (Jay West) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:11:08 2005 Subject: HP 3000 No More (now HP2000 thread) References: <7A9BACCEF0171D4FB77019F5104CDD372258FE@jeffserver.tegjeff.com> Message-ID: <004301c16cf8$9e2ca620$0101a8c0@jay> 1) I'm suprised Bob Supnik had a negative response from HP on the 2000 stuff, since they DID in fact make the source code for HP2000/TSB available (for a fee, but nontheless), even before they end-of-lifed the O/S. 2) Someone mentioned to me privately about an emulator for the 3000, thinking it might be hard. It's probably not that hard for the 3000. I am writing a 2100/21MX emulator that supports multiple cpus, any number of interface card and firmware add-in (software) modules, etc. from scratch. It's probably 2/3rds complete, somewhat functional, and really didn't take that long. Unless there is something terribly unique about the 3000 architecture (which I know zilch about), I can't imagine it would be that hard. 3) The story I'm getting from HP on the 3000 migration path, is Unix Unix Unix. However, since I seem to be one of the few on the list who really LIKES unix, perhaps I'm in the minority in thinking that this isn't a bad thing. Jay West ----- Original Message ----- From: Douglas Quebbeman To: Sent: Wednesday, November 14, 2001 3:29 PM Subject: RE: HP 3000 No More > > According to the press release, they want you to migrate to 9000's or > > their PC servers products. > > > > As for MPE on other platforms.. tempting. They should open source the > > whole damn thing. That would be an *interesting* read. > > fat chance. A group tried to liberate Domain/OS, which they didn't > even write, to no avail... I think Bob Supnik had the same response > from them regarding the HP2000/2100 software. > > Suits. Can't live with 'em, probably couldn't live without 'em. > > -dq > From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Nov 14 15:35:16 2001 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:11:08 2005 Subject: H7140 PDP 11/24 Power Supply Advice In-Reply-To: from "Peter C. Wallace" at Nov 13, 1 06:49:09 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 6024 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20011114/00a1a1f5/attachment.ksh From cmcmanis at mcmanis.com Wed Nov 14 17:15:44 2001 From: cmcmanis at mcmanis.com (Chuck McManis) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:11:08 2005 Subject: H7140 PDP 11/24 Power Supply Advice In-Reply-To: <5.0.0.25.0.20011114134822.0317c008@pc> References: <5.1.0.14.0.20011113115432.00a70500@mcmanis.com> <4.3.2.7.2.20011112200334.03c960e0@cirithi> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20011114150635.024767f0@mcmanis.com> At 11:49 AM 11/14/01, John wrote: >Wow! Is there another set of equations that would explain why, >that if I had a major head injury that impaired my mental >functioning, I could still get a job in marketing at the >average big company? Yes sort of like this: For the function m(iq) which returns your suitability for marketing given your IQ, the equation is m(iq) = 1/e^iq Which returns 1.0 (perfect suitability) when your IQ is 0. --Chuck From jrkeys at concentric.net Wed Nov 14 17:38:06 2001 From: jrkeys at concentric.net (John R. Keys Jr.) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:11:08 2005 Subject: More Finds for the musuem References: <017301c16ccc$a5763440$29701fd1@default> <3BF27EEB.CE4F4949@oxford.net> Message-ID: <00bd01c16d65$6c26ef60$d1731fd1@default> How can I get a copy? Email me offline (jrkeys@concentric.net). Thanks ----- Original Message ----- From: "Dan Cohoe" To: Sent: Wednesday, November 14, 2001 8:25 AM Subject: Re: More Finds for the musuem > "John R. Keys Jr." wrote: > > > > Over the last few weeks I have found a few items, slim pickings right > > now. > > > > - IBM 3174 1L controller with 2 terminals and keyboards > > > > - Tandy color computer ext floppy disk drive model FD501 > > > > - 20+ cartridges for Atari 2600, Jaguar, and Game Gear > > > > - A Nintendo R. O. B. just the robot missing battery cover. It was $2 > > so I got it as a spare. > > > > - a Microline model 701-A 5V power supply, not sure what it goes with > > > > - 20+ mousepads > > > > - New in the box 2 TI joysticks for the TI99/4A > > > > - Apple III diskware program System Demonstration > > > > - digital VT100-AA terminal > > > > - Several books and manuals were also added to the collection > > > > The rest of the items are not old enough to list. > > I have a maintenance/information manual for the IBM 3174 Control Unit if > you need it. > > regards, Dan Cohoe > From jbdigriz at dragonsweb.org Wed Nov 14 17:22:31 2001 From: jbdigriz at dragonsweb.org (James B. DiGriz) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:11:08 2005 Subject: Fw: Control Data Cyber 960 rescue interest? References: Message-ID: <3BF2FCB7.5070504@dragonsweb.org> Don Maslin wrote: > > On Wed, 14 Nov 2001, James B. DiGriz wrote: > > >>Eric Dittman wrote: >> >> >>>>As regards any rescue efforts, I want to implore everyone not to besiege >>>>hapless admins in the Ga. University System with requests for >>>>information, machines, etc. USG cannot sell or transfer state property >>>>itself. We should be grateful for any support they can lend a rescue >>>>effort, but all this has to go through the state Dept. of Adminstrative >>>>Services, so let's don't put our friends behind the eight-ball, ok? >>>> > > > >>Yes, those are excellent suggestions and wlll no doubt come into play at >>some point, in some fashion, but the best way I see to approach this is >>as a standard service procurement contract, through DOAS. At this point, >>actually getting the property is secondary to seeing that it remains >>worth getting. USG has nothing say about that once the DOAS contractor >>shows up to remove it. That's what I'm focusing on right now. Bidding on >>it at auction will be the easy part. >> > > Perhaps the `saviour' effort might succed better if couched in terms of > a bid to DOAS to remove, haul away, and preserve the machine in > operational form if such could be put together. > > - don > Exactly. I don't know if they entertain offers of bids in this fashion, however. I believe they solicit, and then you bid. The only likely problem about this would be the terms and specifications, which could possibly impede a proper deinstallation. This is restating an immediately previous comment of mine. I'm looking into it. It still has to go to DOAS until the final disposition is made, as far as I can tell. That's how the law reads, as I understand it. I don't see provision for any kind of expedited procedure, but I've never dealt with them before. The question then becomes, do you want to have worked for free, for nothing, if the machine doesn't end up being preserved? I doubt my temper could stand that much testing. No, I would put in a bona-fide actual bid. I think this is a good point at which to rest this line of discussion. jbdigriz From vze2mnvr at verizon.net Wed Nov 14 18:17:31 2001 From: vze2mnvr at verizon.net (Ian Koller) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:11:08 2005 Subject: Fw: Control Data Cyber 960 rescue interest? References: Message-ID: <3BF3099B.3267DE@verizon.net> Sellam Ismail wrote: > I'm sure you could get the machine released into your hands > for some minor kickback This could probably land you in jail. Even suggesting it may be construed as conspiracy to commit the act. Sellam Ismail wrote: > > On Wed, 14 Nov 2001, James B. DiGriz wrote: > > > Georgia is one of those places where petitions don't go over real well > > unless they're unnecessary to begin with. > > > > Why presuppose a need to go backing 'em into a corner? That's the way > > it'll be seen, and it would just kill what support there may be. A > > petition indicates opposition in their eyes, too, and that gets them to > > wondering what the other side may have to offer. I can guarantee you the > > scrap dealers, for instance, can get more signatures, and have more pull > > in Atlanta. They put food in a lot of mouths, and that's not to be > > aneezed at in rural Georgia. There are enough whipped dogs here anyway, > > that's a big part of the state's problems, probably the biggest. 10% of > > the population is behind bars, and people think this is a good thing. > > > > Let's give 'em a chance, not kill what support there may be. I've got > > some irons in the fire here. Please don't let's screw things up turning > > this into some kind of "cause". This is getting way too political, and > > that's not the fucking point. > > > > Geez, next thing somebody will be saying there oughta be a law. You can > > count me out of further involvement if things go that way. Let's try to > > focus on a win-win scenario for everybody, instead. > > James, I assure you William was trying to be helpful and had your > interests at heart. He's from the North, and he's apparently not familiar > with your good-ole-boy Southern ways ;) > > >From my cursory knowledge of Southern deal-making, it would seem that if > you can get someone in the DOAS (was that the acronym for the agency > responsible for disposing of the system?) in your pocket, I'm sure you > could get the machine released into your hands for some minor kickback. > > But be careful what you wish for. > > Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ > International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org From vze2mnvr at verizon.net Wed Nov 14 18:19:45 2001 From: vze2mnvr at verizon.net (Ian Koller) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:11:08 2005 Subject: Fw: Control Data Cyber 960 rescue interest? References: <200111142014.fAEKEgQ29344@narnia.int.dittman.net> Message-ID: <3BF30A21.8EDEFA5C@verizon.net> Eric Dittman wrote: > Shouldn't it be fully depreciated by now? But it has residual scrap value. Hard money that goes back into the states general fund. And believe this, they are not a charity. Eric Dittman wrote: > > > > preserve the system at no cost to the state and University. > > > > You must offer them cash for it, because if they don't sell it, > > it is at a cost to the state and the university. > > Shouldn't it be fully depreciated by now? > -- > Eric Dittman > dittman@dittman.net > Check out the DEC Enthusiasts Club at http://www.dittman.net/ From jbdigriz at dragonsweb.org Wed Nov 14 18:26:41 2001 From: jbdigriz at dragonsweb.org (James B. DiGriz) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:11:08 2005 Subject: Fw: Control Data Cyber 960 rescue interest? References: Message-ID: <3BF30BC1.2060000@dragonsweb.org> Sellam Ismail wrote: > On Wed, 14 Nov 2001, James B. DiGriz wrote: > > >>Georgia is one of those places where petitions don't go over real well >>unless they're unnecessary to begin with. >> >>Why presuppose a need to go backing 'em into a corner? That's the way >>it'll be seen, and it would just kill what support there may be. A >>petition indicates opposition in their eyes, too, and that gets them to >>wondering what the other side may have to offer. I can guarantee you the >>scrap dealers, for instance, can get more signatures, and have more pull >>in Atlanta. They put food in a lot of mouths, and that's not to be >>aneezed at in rural Georgia. There are enough whipped dogs here anyway, >>that's a big part of the state's problems, probably the biggest. 10% of >>the population is behind bars, and people think this is a good thing. >> >>Let's give 'em a chance, not kill what support there may be. I've got >>some irons in the fire here. Please don't let's screw things up turning >>this into some kind of "cause". This is getting way too political, and >>that's not the fucking point. >> >>Geez, next thing somebody will be saying there oughta be a law. You can >>count me out of further involvement if things go that way. Let's try to >>focus on a win-win scenario for everybody, instead. >> > > James, I assure you William was trying to be helpful and had your > interests at heart. He's from the North, and he's apparently not familiar > with your good-ole-boy Southern ways ;) Did I say I thought he wasn't or hadn't? What's this supposed to mean, anyway? > >>From my cursory knowledge of Southern deal-making, it would seem that if > you can get someone in the DOAS (was that the acronym for the agency > responsible for disposing of the system?) in your pocket, I'm sure you > could get the machine released into your hands for some minor kickback. > > But be careful what you wish for. > Now you appear to think you're patronizing me. I think this discussion is exhausted. jbdigriz From vze2mnvr at verizon.net Wed Nov 14 18:47:32 2001 From: vze2mnvr at verizon.net (Ian Koller) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:11:08 2005 Subject: Fw: Control Data Cyber 960 rescue interest? References: Message-ID: <3BF310A4.2D555FE1@verizon.net> Mike Ford wrote: > Anybody have a CLUE as to its value as scrap? Gold ........ 277.50 USD per troy oz. Silver ...... 4.15 USD per troy oz. Platinum .... 426.00 USD per troy oz. Palladium ... 312.00 USD per troy oz. Rhodium ..... 600.00 USD per troy oz. Mike Ford wrote: > > Maybe I am being simple, but putting in the top bid seems like the sure > route to acquiring this unit. > > Anybody have a CLUE as to its value as scrap? From jbdigriz at dragonsweb.org Wed Nov 14 18:58:10 2001 From: jbdigriz at dragonsweb.org (James B. DiGriz) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:11:08 2005 Subject: Fw: Control Data Cyber 960 rescue interest? References: <3BF3099B.3267DE@verizon.net> Message-ID: <3BF31322.4090202@dragonsweb.org> Ian Koller wrote: > Sellam Ismail wrote: > > >>I'm sure you could get the machine released into your hands >>for some minor kickback >> > > This could probably land you in jail. Even suggesting it may > be construed as conspiracy to commit the act. > Oh, get a grip. Sellam was being a smart-ass. More to the point, after Gov. Barnes testified for 3 hours against a former DOAS official for being too cozy with an Easysoft rep., and she lost her suit for enhanced pension benefits, you'd probably get laughed right out the door of any state employee's office you approached with a kickback. Maybe with a foot somewhere on your person, mind you. jbdigriz From jbdigriz at dragonsweb.org Wed Nov 14 18:59:34 2001 From: jbdigriz at dragonsweb.org (James B. DiGriz) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:11:08 2005 Subject: Fw: Control Data Cyber 960 rescue interest? References: <200111142014.fAEKEgQ29344@narnia.int.dittman.net> <3BF30A21.8EDEFA5C@verizon.net> Message-ID: <3BF31376.1060904@dragonsweb.org> Ian Koller wrote: > > Eric Dittman wrote: > > >>Shouldn't it be fully depreciated by now? >> > > But it has residual scrap value. Hard money that goes back > into the states general fund. And believe this, they are not > a charity. > Ever hear of penny-wise, but pound-foolish? jbdigriz From dittman at dittman.net Wed Nov 14 19:01:45 2001 From: dittman at dittman.net (Eric Dittman) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:11:08 2005 Subject: Fw: Control Data Cyber 960 rescue interest? In-Reply-To: <3BF30A21.8EDEFA5C@verizon.net> from "Ian Koller" at Nov 14, 2001 07:19:45 PM Message-ID: <200111150101.fAF11jJ30003@narnia.int.dittman.net> > > Shouldn't it be fully depreciated by now? > > But it has residual scrap value. Hard money that goes back > into the states general fund. And believe this, they are not > a charity. I know they aren't a charity, but I know that the businesses I've worked for consider fully depreciated items as $0 value and therefore disposable. -- Eric Dittman dittman@dittman.net Check out the DEC Enthusiasts Club at http://www.dittman.net/ From john_boffemmyer_iv at boff-net.dhs.org Wed Nov 14 19:44:24 2001 From: john_boffemmyer_iv at boff-net.dhs.org (John Boffemmyer IV) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:11:08 2005 Subject: In need of external SCSI enclosure... Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20011114203559.01d58cc0@sokieserv.dhs.org> Anyone out there have a HD50, 4 bay external SCSI enclosure they are willing to part with (trade/money/etc.)? I've noticed that I've accumulated a small pile of old IDC50 1gig SCSI drives and I have decided to actually use them instead of allow them to keep my computer room door propped open. I've verified that they work, etc, but my little case cannot fit more than 2 drives (yes, a sucky mid-tower) and logically, an external would suit my needs. Finding them on ebay is like looking to pay porshe prices for a yugo. I last saw one (actually a 2 bay HD50) go for about $130 US, USED without power supply! Is there anyone out there willing to help spare my sanity for my SCSI obscession? Maybe it will give me room to play with my 2X SCSI CD-ROM drive and 250Meg Tape Drive... -John Boff. ---------------------------------------- Founder, Lead Writer, Tech Analyst and Web Designer Boff-Net Technologies http://boff-net.dhs.org/index.html --------------------------------------- From optimus at canit.se Wed Nov 14 19:47:57 2001 From: optimus at canit.se (Iggy Drougge) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:11:08 2005 Subject: Xenix ? In-Reply-To: <3BF29DD6.2C86235F@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <1145.719T2850T1676463optimus@canit.se> Ben Franchuk skrev: >Iggy Drougge wrote: >> You really have very short lines, Ben. >Stupid auto formating... It seems to work better now. >> Since when was this a requirement of a UNIX? And why should >> self-compilation and C compiler sources be available? >First I am porting to a new machine. Secondly I am looking for a simple >developent system as it does not make sense to me to have a P-III to >compile a "hello world" program. Right now a Floppy disk is miles into >the future. But those are hardly what makes a UNIX a UNIX, is it? BTW, it seems as though OS-9 is no longer self-hosting, either. I ordered a demo CD some years ago, but the stupid thing required Windows. Pff. >> Try http://pdp10.nocrew.org/. >Nice PDP-10 link but it has very little on rolling your own computer. No, it's about porting GCC to the PDP-10, which ISTR is a computer with similar specs to yours. >> >(Try and fit your favorite web browser in 8 meg or less) >Ok , now can you get one that fits in 128Kb dos 3 machine? :) What kind of DOS 3? -- En ligne avec Thor 2.6a. Ky?suke: Jag heter Kurre, Kurre Carlsson! Jag: Det heter du inte alls! From optimus at canit.se Wed Nov 14 19:50:34 2001 From: optimus at canit.se (Iggy Drougge) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:11:08 2005 Subject: HP 3000 No More In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <502.719T1700T1705813optimus@canit.se> Dan Linder skrev: >Just announced on /., the venerable HP3000 line will join HP calculators >in HP's new "we don't want to do cool stuff anymore" business model. You're forgetting that PA-RISC is also in the same position. It's called "legacy", isn't it? >Well, maybe that's harsh. But it is still another sad day for computing. But was the HP-3000 really cool? I know nothing at all about the system, apart from that it's a business-oriented mainframe or mini range. -- En ligne avec Thor 2.6a. From jhingber at ix.netcom.com Wed Nov 14 20:11:53 2001 From: jhingber at ix.netcom.com (Jeffrey H. Ingber) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:11:08 2005 Subject: 8" Diskettes Message-ID: <1005790318.1427.3.camel@Eleusis> There was a thread awhile back inquiring about vendors of 8" diskettes. It seems IBM still carries some 8" disks: http://www.storage.ibm.com/media/products.html Number Description 2305830 8"SS/SD- 26 sector 128 byte/sector (246/272 byte capacity) - 10pk box 2736700 8" SS/SD - DP- 10pk box 1669959 8" 1 -OS/6, (260.000 characters)- 10pk box 1669045 8" DS/DD - 8 sector, 1024 byte/sector (1212/416 byte capacity) -10pk box 1669044 8" DS/DD - 15 sector, 512 byte/sector (1136/640 byte capacity) - 10pk box 1766872 8" DS/DD - 26 sector, 256 byte/sector (985/008 byte capacity) - 10pk box Jeffrey H. Ingber (jhingber _at_ ix.netcom.com) From optimus at canit.se Wed Nov 14 20:18:16 2001 From: optimus at canit.se (Iggy Drougge) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:11:08 2005 Subject: (fwd) Ataris @ The Alternative Party Message-ID: <200111150218.DAA03695@uno.canit.se> -- forwarded message -- Path: dos.canit.se!newsfeed1.swip.net!swipnet!newsfeed.mathworks.com!news.maxwell.syr.edu!news.algonet.se!algonet!newsfeed1.uni2.dk!sunsite.dk!sonofon.dk!neo.defero.net!news.defero.net!news.bbnetworks.net!not-for-mail From: Kristoffer Lawson Newsgroups: comp.sys.atari.st Subject: Ataris @ The Alternative Party Date: Wed, 14 Nov 2001 18:08:49 +0000 (UTC) Organization: Fishpool Creations Ltd Lines: 27 Sender: Kristoffer Lawson Message-ID: <9subvh$1jhg$1@news.bbnetworks.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: oksidi.fishpool.fi Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Trace: news.bbnetworks.net 1005761329 52784 212.16.100.71 (14 Nov 2001 18:08:49 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@news.bbnetworks.net NNTP-Posting-Date: Wed, 14 Nov 2001 18:08:49 +0000 (UTC) User-Agent: tin/pre-1.4-971106 (UNIX) (IRIX/6.3 (IP32)) Xref: dos.canit.se comp.sys.atari.st:117781 Just a quick note about the rather neat computer party we're organising: The Alternative Party is basically about collecting a wide variety of alternative demo platforms together into an event for people who love machines with personality, and who are trying to create demos with them. Previously we've seen Falcons, Amigas, C64s, a Vectrex, a Commodore PET, a Telmac, Spectrums, UNIX workstations etc. etc. We are also combining all of this with experimental and alternative art. Some artists who will be playing live at the 3-day event: Pnmf!, Tero M?yr?nen (plays live music with synths and a C64), Telamurska, Happo, Analogia, No I Aint. It will take place in Helsinki, Finland from the 11th of January to the 13th. For more information contact me or visit the website, http://www.altparty.org/ (check the archive for an invitro from Wildfire for the Falcon!). In addition, we've set up an area for collecting together information about cool machines and interesting art, or the "Alternative Wiki". Absolutely anybody can contribute information to it by clicking "Edit Text" at the bottom of any page, and add new pages freely. If there are people here who would like to contribute, please do! The Alternative Wiki can be found at http://www.altparty.org/wiki/. Hope to see some of you there. -- Kristoffer Lawson | Setok / Aggression | Main Alternative Party organiser -- end of forwarded message -- -- Vi m?ste vara r?dda om varandra - det ?r det enda reciproka pronomen vi har. From rcini at optonline.net Wed Nov 14 20:20:19 2001 From: rcini at optonline.net (Richard A. Cini, Jr.) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:11:08 2005 Subject: Altair32 Emulator - StarTrek Runs! Message-ID: Hello, all: Another minor success. With the help of Mike Dogas, I was able to get Altair BASIC 4.0 (8K BASIC) running in the emulator. With that comes support for strings. With strings, Super StarTrek. Whoo, hoo! Thanks Mike! Rich Rich Cini Collector of classic computers Build Master for the Altair32 Emulation Project Web site: http://highgate.comm.sfu.ca/~rcini/classiccmp/ /************************************************************/ From dittman at dittman.net Wed Nov 14 20:39:55 2001 From: dittman at dittman.net (Eric Dittman) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:11:08 2005 Subject: HP 3000 No More In-Reply-To: <502.719T1700T1705813optimus@canit.se> from "Iggy Drougge" at Nov 15, 2001 02:50:34 AM Message-ID: <200111150239.fAF2dtb30241@narnia.int.dittman.net> > >Just announced on /., the venerable HP3000 line will join HP calculators > >in HP's new "we don't want to do cool stuff anymore" business model. > > You're forgetting that PA-RISC is also in the same position. It's called > "legacy", isn't it? > > >Well, maybe that's harsh. But it is still another sad day for computing. > > But was the HP-3000 really cool? I know nothing at all about the system, apart > from that it's a business-oriented mainframe or mini range. I've messed around a little with MPE, and took the introductory administration class offered by HP. MPE is an odd operating system. -- Eric Dittman dittman@dittman.net Check out the DEC Enthusiasts Club at http://www.dittman.net/ From cbajpai at mediaone.net Wed Nov 14 20:52:56 2001 From: cbajpai at mediaone.net (Chandra Bajpai) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:11:08 2005 Subject: HP 3000 No More In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <000b01c16d80$a2d9aaa0$b97ba8c0@ne.mediaone.net> When did HP stop making calculators??? I learned how to program on a HP-25 way back I was a youngster....RPN drove me crazy! -Chandra -----Original Message----- From: owner-classiccmp@classiccmp.org [mailto:owner-classiccmp@classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Dan Linder Sent: Wednesday, November 14, 2001 12:06 PM To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org Subject: HP 3000 No More hey list- Just announced on /., the venerable HP3000 line will join HP calculators in HP's new "we don't want to do cool stuff anymore" business model. Well, maybe that's harsh. But it is still another sad day for computing. - Dan -- Dan Linder / dlinder @ uiuc.edu Graduate Student, College of Engineering, Dept. of Computer Science - Dept. of Computer Science Teaching Assistant - DRES Computer Accessibility Researcher From dlinder at uiuc.edu Wed Nov 14 21:01:29 2001 From: dlinder at uiuc.edu (Dan Linder) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:11:08 2005 Subject: HP 3000 No More In-Reply-To: <502.719T1700T1705813optimus@canit.se> Message-ID: On 15 Nov 2001, Iggy Drougge wrote: > Dan Linder skrev: > > >Just announced on /., the venerable HP3000 line will join HP calculators > >in HP's new "we don't want to do cool stuff anymore" business model. > > But was the HP-3000 really cool? I know nothing at all about the system, apart > from that it's a business-oriented mainframe or mini range. Well, Eric called MPE "odd", and in my book, anything "odd" in computers is pretty darn cool. (Note that "cool" != "usable" | "nice" | "smart" | etc) :) - Dan -- Dan Linder / dlinder @ uiuc.edu Graduate Student, College of Engineering, Dept. of Computer Science - Dept. of Computer Science Teaching Assistant - DRES Computer Accessibility Researcher From Diff at Mac.com Wed Nov 14 21:41:14 2001 From: Diff at Mac.com (Zach Malone) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:11:08 2005 Subject: HP 3000 No More References: <000b01c16d80$a2d9aaa0$b97ba8c0@ne.mediaone.net> Message-ID: <005601c16d87$6e7b6e40$6501a8c0@laboffice> HP recently laid off all of their graphing calculator devision. I am uncertain as to whether they have killed off the rest of their calculator department, if so, I know of a number of RPN users who will be desperatly searching for a replacement, although they really wont need one until 20 years down the road when their existing calculators fail. Zach ----- Original Message ----- From: "Chandra Bajpai" To: Sent: Wednesday, November 14, 2001 9:52 PM Subject: RE: HP 3000 No More > When did HP stop making calculators??? I learned how to program on a > HP-25 way back I was a youngster....RPN drove me crazy! > -Chandra > > > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-classiccmp@classiccmp.org > [mailto:owner-classiccmp@classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Dan Linder > Sent: Wednesday, November 14, 2001 12:06 PM > To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org > Subject: HP 3000 No More > > > hey list- > > Just announced on /., the venerable HP3000 line will join HP calculators > in HP's new "we don't want to do cool stuff anymore" business model. > > Well, maybe that's harsh. But it is still another sad day for > computing. > > - Dan > > -- > Dan Linder / dlinder @ uiuc.edu > Graduate Student, College of Engineering, Dept. of Computer Science > - Dept. of Computer Science Teaching Assistant > - DRES Computer Accessibility Researcher > From KenzieM at sympatico.ca Wed Nov 14 22:11:56 2001 From: KenzieM at sympatico.ca (Mike Kenzie) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:11:08 2005 Subject: HP 3000 No More References: <502.719T1700T1705813optimus@canit.se> Message-ID: <001501c16d8b$aeb3df70$0101a8c0@sympatico.ca> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Iggy Drougge" To: "Dan Linder" Sent: Wednesday, November 14, 2001 8:50 PM Subject: Re: HP 3000 No More > Dan Linder skrev: > > >Just announced on /., the venerable HP3000 line will join HP calculators > >in HP's new "we don't want to do cool stuff anymore" business model. > > You're forgetting that PA-RISC is also in the same position. It's called > "legacy", isn't it? > > >Well, maybe that's harsh. But it is still another sad day for computing. Especially since we were supposed to be migrating our system from a IBM 390 to the HP3000. I guess a year of planning and vendor selection is out the window. From mythtech at Mac.com Wed Nov 14 22:31:01 2001 From: mythtech at Mac.com (Chris) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:11:08 2005 Subject: In need of external SCSI enclosure... Message-ID: <200111150431.WAA12677@opal.tseinc.com> >Anyone out there have a HD50, 4 bay external SCSI enclosure they are >willing to part with (trade/money/etc.)? I've noticed that I've accumulated >a small pile of old IDC50 1gig SCSI drives and I have decided to actually >use them instead of allow them to keep my computer room door propped open. >I've verified that they work, etc, but my little case cannot fit more than >2 drives (yes, a sucky mid-tower) and logically, an external would suit my >needs. Finding them on ebay is like looking to pay porshe prices for a >yugo. I last saw one (actually a 2 bay HD50) go for about $130 US, USED >without power supply! Is there anyone out there willing to help spare my >sanity for my SCSI obscession? Maybe it will give me room to play with my >2X SCSI CD-ROM drive and 250Meg Tape Drive... I "built" one of these a while back. I bought a cable from MCM Electronics (Cent on each end, and 4 IDC in the middle). I think the cable was about $40. I then stuck my drives (a CD burner and an HD, with 2 spaces to spare), into a spare PC computer case (I paid $20 on the case with a 250 watt PS included). The case gave me access to 4 5.25 1/2 height bays, and 2 3.5 bays (all bays are external, no additional internal, however, since there was no logic board, I could mount things on their side using that space if I had wanted to). For heat venting, I placed an extra case fan (I used one of those slot mount ones since I had it on hand). I also scrounged up some old slot plates that fit the centronics connectors on the back (don't remember where I got them, but I had them from something... I think you can buy them for a buck or two). It worked very well for about a year, then I needed the case for a PC, and I had upgraded my internal HD so I no longer needed the extra SCSI drive. Now the CD burner sits on top of an old external Jasmine HD case so I can use the PS and IDC to Cent cable from it (since the Jasmine drive is LONG since dead anyway). -chris From spectre at stockholm.ptloma.edu Wed Nov 14 22:39:07 2001 From: spectre at stockholm.ptloma.edu (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:11:08 2005 Subject: HP 3000 No More In-Reply-To: <001501c16d8b$aeb3df70$0101a8c0@sympatico.ca> from Mike Kenzie at "Nov 14, 1 11:11:56 pm" Message-ID: <200111150439.UAA04848@stockholm.ptloma.edu> > You're forgetting that PA-RISC is also in the same position. It's > called "legacy", isn't it? Feh. We have two PA-RISC boxen in the server room. I'm sure the IT director would be very upset if that happened, considering they're barely three years old at the most. -- ----------------------------- personal page: http://www.armory.com/~spectre/ -- Cameron Kaiser, Point Loma Nazarene University * ckaiser@stockholm.ptloma.edu -- The things which hurt, instruct. -- Benjamin Franklin ---------------------- From allain at panix.com Wed Nov 14 22:39:23 2001 From: allain at panix.com (John Allain) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:11:08 2005 Subject: Fw: Control Data Cyber 960 rescue interest? References: <3BF2F17F.7060001@dragonsweb.org> Message-ID: <004601c16d8f$80984be0$21fe54a6@ibm23xhr06> >> Anybody have a CLUE as to its value as scrap? >Apperently it's not insignificant. Supposedly there is considerable >gold on the circuit boards. May be water cooler myth, can anyone > confirm or deny? One of the bad guys (professional scrapper) said he paid $10K for Each IBM 360 he got. Sounds like more than $1/llb folks. John A. From vance at ikickass.org Wed Nov 14 22:49:20 2001 From: vance at ikickass.org (One Without Reason) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:11:08 2005 Subject: HP 3000 No More In-Reply-To: <001501c16d8b$aeb3df70$0101a8c0@sympatico.ca> Message-ID: On Wed, 14 Nov 2001, Mike Kenzie wrote: > Especially since we were supposed to be migrating our system from a > IBM 390 to the HP3000. > I guess a year of planning and vendor selection is out the window. You could always go to zSeries. Peace... Sridhar From fernande at internet1.net Wed Nov 14 23:09:56 2001 From: fernande at internet1.net (Chad Fernandez) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:11:08 2005 Subject: In need of external SCSI enclosure... References: <5.1.0.14.2.20011114203559.01d58cc0@sokieserv.dhs.org> Message-ID: <3BF34E24.69F8B1AA@internet1.net> Where are you located? I have a rahter heavy MTI SCSI case that will handle 4 full height drives. I no longer use it, and would let it go fairly cheaply. Chad Fernandez Michigan, USA John Boffemmyer IV wrote: > > Anyone out there have a HD50, 4 bay external SCSI enclosure they are > willing to part with (trade/money/etc.)? I've noticed that I've accumulated > a small pile of old IDC50 1gig SCSI drives and I have decided to actually > use them instead of allow them to keep my computer room door propped open. > I've verified that they work, etc, but my little case cannot fit more than > 2 drives (yes, a sucky mid-tower) and logically, an external would suit my > needs. Finding them on ebay is like looking to pay porshe prices for a > yugo. I last saw one (actually a 2 bay HD50) go for about $130 US, USED > without power supply! Is there anyone out there willing to help spare my > sanity for my SCSI obscession? Maybe it will give me room to play with my > 2X SCSI CD-ROM drive and 250Meg Tape Drive... > -John Boff. > > ---------------------------------------- > Founder, Lead Writer, Tech Analyst > and Web Designer Boff-Net Technologies > http://boff-net.dhs.org/index.html > --------------------------------------- From jss at subatomix.com Thu Nov 15 01:43:25 2001 From: jss at subatomix.com (Jeffrey S. Sharp) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:11:08 2005 Subject: H7140 PDP 11/24 Power Supply Advice In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20011115013100.O10499-100000@lepton.subatomix.com> On Wed, 14 Nov 2001, Tony Duell wrote: > > I strongly recommend doing so if you plan on working on pre-PC era > > machines. They do break. But repairing them can actually be quite > > I strongly recomend you learn electronics no matter what sort of > machine you work on. Well, that does it. I'm going to stay an extra few years at college and get a second degree: Electrical & Computer Engineering. Now, look what you've done, you bastards! :-) -- Jeffrey S. Sharp jss@subatomix.com From optimus at canit.se Thu Nov 15 01:50:57 2001 From: optimus at canit.se (Iggy Drougge) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:11:08 2005 Subject: New acquisitions: Suns, room In-Reply-To: <20011113204456.6627.qmail@web20102.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <700.719T2850T5306731optimus@canit.se> Ethan Dicks skrev: >> Is that the same mouse as for DesqView or whatever that old Visicorp-made >> PC GUI system was made? I've got such a mouse, made by Mouse Systems in >> the old three-button SUN style and with an RJ11 connector? >Dunno for sure. What I have is a Mouse Systems 3-button mouse with an >RJ-11 with gold-plated posts sticking out like ears - presumably so you >wouldn't stick it into a telephone jack. It came from the trash of a >place that had lots of Suns, so AFAIK, it's for a Sun3. Now I remember what that GUI was called - Visi-On. And now I even get the joke. -- En ligne avec Thor 2.6a. "It's better to have loved and lost, than to be gang raped in a Turkish prison." From optimus at canit.se Thu Nov 15 01:57:04 2001 From: optimus at canit.se (Iggy Drougge) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:11:08 2005 Subject: Cromemco + DIAB Message-ID: <410.719T200T5373945optimus@canit.se> There's been some talk about Cromemco recently, and in one single Usenet post, I read something about a Cromemco UNIX box actually being a DIAB design. Presumably, this would be a 680[23]0 design. Do you have any ideas? -- En ligne avec Thor 2.6a. SCSI is *NOT* magic. There are *fundamental technical reasons* why it is necessary to sacrifice a young goat to your SCSI chain now and then. -- John Woods From pete at dunnington.u-net.com Thu Nov 15 02:22:05 2001 From: pete at dunnington.u-net.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:11:08 2005 Subject: Xebec Sider for Apple II In-Reply-To: "Rich Beaudry" "Xebec Sider for Apple II" (Nov 14, 14:32) References: Message-ID: <10111150822.ZM11842@mindy.dunnington.u-net.com> On Nov 14, 14:32, Rich Beaudry wrote: > I recently received a Xebec Sider drive (external hard drive for the Apple > II) -- Thanks RE! > > It did not, however, come with the card that goes in the Apple II, nor did > it come with the cable. What would it look like? I assume it would have a ribbon connector between the Apple card and the Sider. Do you know how many pins? I don't think the card I have is what you want, but you never know... -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager University of York From mikeford at socal.rr.com Thu Nov 15 03:28:42 2001 From: mikeford at socal.rr.com (Mike Ford) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:11:08 2005 Subject: Card punch at Boeing socal auction 11/27 In-Reply-To: <001501c16d8b$aeb3df70$0101a8c0@sympatico.ca> References: <502.719T1700T1705813optimus@canit.se> Message-ID: Couple items that might interest someone else from the Boeing, Long Beach CA 11/27 sealed bid auction flyer; 3M model 948 IBM card encoder IBM model 519 IBM card reproducing punch IBM model 3525, 3505 IBM cardreaders Email me and I can tell you a bit more, but I don't plan to bid on anything as yet. From mikeford at socal.rr.com Thu Nov 15 03:15:33 2001 From: mikeford at socal.rr.com (Mike Ford) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:11:08 2005 Subject: In need of external SCSI enclosure... In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20011114203559.01d58cc0@sokieserv.dhs.org> Message-ID: >Anyone out there have a HD50, 4 bay external SCSI enclosure they are >willing to part with (trade/money/etc.)? I've noticed that I've accumulated Sure, but I hear they go for about $130 on ebay..... Cheap solution is to just use an old PC minitower case. Yank the motherboard etc., and put in a SCSI ribbon cable with a bulkhead connector (Fry's et al have such cables). From mikeford at socal.rr.com Thu Nov 15 03:36:43 2001 From: mikeford at socal.rr.com (Mike Ford) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:11:08 2005 Subject: Fw: Control Data Cyber 960 rescue interest? In-Reply-To: <004601c16d8f$80984be0$21fe54a6@ibm23xhr06> References: <3BF2F17F.7060001@dragonsweb.org> Message-ID: >>> Anybody have a CLUE as to its value as scrap? > >>Apperently it's not insignificant. Supposedly there is considerable >>gold on the circuit boards. May be water cooler myth, can anyone >> confirm or deny? > >One of the bad guys (professional scrapper) said he paid $10K for >Each IBM 360 he got. Sounds like more than $1/llb folks. *** joke **** How do you tell when a professional scrapper is lying? Their lips are moving. $4/lb is about the top end for just circuit boards, and then only when filled with expensive chips in sockets. $0.50 to $1.50 is more common for well populated boards. Ceramic chips with gold pins go by themselves for about $25/lb. Aluminum is something like $0.35/lb. The rest is mostly breakage which is more like $0.04/lb. From vance at ikickass.org Thu Nov 15 03:46:48 2001 From: vance at ikickass.org (One Without Reason) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:11:08 2005 Subject: In need of external SCSI enclosure... In-Reply-To: <3BF34E24.69F8B1AA@internet1.net> Message-ID: I can take it to him. He lives about 15 minutes from me... and since I have to come out there to get that PDP-11... Peace... Sridhar On Thu, 15 Nov 2001, Chad Fernandez wrote: > Where are you located? I have a rahter heavy MTI SCSI case that will > handle 4 full height drives. I no longer use it, and would let it go > fairly cheaply. > > Chad Fernandez > Michigan, USA > > John Boffemmyer IV wrote: > > > > Anyone out there have a HD50, 4 bay external SCSI enclosure they are > > willing to part with (trade/money/etc.)? I've noticed that I've accumulated > > a small pile of old IDC50 1gig SCSI drives and I have decided to actually > > use them instead of allow them to keep my computer room door propped open. > > I've verified that they work, etc, but my little case cannot fit more than > > 2 drives (yes, a sucky mid-tower) and logically, an external would suit my > > needs. Finding them on ebay is like looking to pay porshe prices for a > > yugo. I last saw one (actually a 2 bay HD50) go for about $130 US, USED > > without power supply! Is there anyone out there willing to help spare my > > sanity for my SCSI obscession? Maybe it will give me room to play with my > > 2X SCSI CD-ROM drive and 250Meg Tape Drive... > > -John Boff. > > > > ---------------------------------------- > > Founder, Lead Writer, Tech Analyst > > and Web Designer Boff-Net Technologies > > http://boff-net.dhs.org/index.html > > --------------------------------------- > From mcguire at neurotica.com Thu Nov 15 03:54:28 2001 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:11:08 2005 Subject: HP 3000 No More In-Reply-To: Re: HP 3000 No More (Iggy Drougge) References: <502.719T1700T1705813optimus@canit.se> Message-ID: <15347.37076.474341.455536@phaduka.neurotica.com> On November 15, Iggy Drougge wrote: > >Just announced on /., the venerable HP3000 line will join HP calculators > >in HP's new "we don't want to do cool stuff anymore" business model. > > You're forgetting that PA-RISC is also in the same position. It's called > "legacy", isn't it? Of course. Anything non-Intel non-Windows is automatically "legacy", remember? -Dave -- Dave McGuire St. Petersburg, FL From mcguire at neurotica.com Thu Nov 15 03:58:11 2001 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:11:08 2005 Subject: H7140 PDP 11/24 Power Supply Advice In-Reply-To: Re: H7140 PDP 11/24 Power Supply Advice (Jeffrey S. Sharp) References: <20011115013100.O10499-100000@lepton.subatomix.com> Message-ID: <15347.37299.984302.864519@phaduka.neurotica.com> On November 15, Jeffrey S. Sharp wrote: > > > I strongly recommend doing so if you plan on working on pre-PC era > > > machines. They do break. But repairing them can actually be quite > > > > I strongly recomend you learn electronics no matter what sort of > > machine you work on. > > Well, that does it. I'm going to stay an extra few years at college and > get a second degree: Electrical & Computer Engineering. Now, look what > you've done, you bastards! :-) Of course that won't necessarily mean you'll come out knowing anything about electrical & computer engineering. Oh wait, you didn't say "computer science". Nevermind. -Dave -- Dave McGuire St. Petersburg, FL From CHoaglin at aol.com Thu Nov 15 03:58:27 2001 From: CHoaglin at aol.com (CHoaglin@aol.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:11:08 2005 Subject: classiccmp-digest V1 #777 Message-ID: <14.1d9ee983.2924ebc3@aol.com> Mike Ford wrote: >Maybe I am being simple, but putting in the top bid seems like the sure >route to acquiring this unit. >Anybody have a CLUE as to its value as scrap? If somebody can give me an idea of how many boards there are in such a machine, ideally a picture of some boards, or at least an estimate as to the dimensions of said boards and what sort of package chips they used, plastic, ceramic, gold capped or gold pins etc, I'll try to come up with a ballpark figure, and might ask some other people I know in the business for input. I scrap/dispose of/remarket gear for a living, so I've dealt with a lot of scrap, though nothing really mainframe related. Gold processors like Pentium 60's have around $50 a pound worth of gold in them, never pentiums maybe only $35 to $40(that's what's in them, the scrapyards will pay around half that) The presence of other things like platinum, palladium, rhodium or other more exotic metals can complicate these calculations, and old processors most likely have more precious metals content than the old pentiums. If they use anything like the TCM modules in IBM mainframes (the HUGE PGA package chips maybe 4 inches on a side, and use them in any quantity, there may be some real scrap value, since those things have around $75 worth of metals apiece in them by current prices. Standard PC motherboards go for around 65 cents a pound, daughtercards go for almost $1/lb, card edges $25/lb. Aluminum drives go for around 10 cents/lb or so, more like 15 when the Al market is decent. The racks are pretty much worthless if they're steel. I've heard figures as high as $3/lb on old Q-bus boards, though I'm not sure if the place was buying them for scrap or resale as Q-bus boards. If anybody can get me any further information I'll do my best to come up with a figure. -Chris -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20011115/2ddbbfd4/attachment.html From jbdigriz at dragonsweb.org Thu Nov 15 07:02:51 2001 From: jbdigriz at dragonsweb.org (James B. DiGriz) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:11:08 2005 Subject: Fw: Control Data Cyber 960 rescue interest? References: <3BF2F17F.7060001@dragonsweb.org> Message-ID: <3BF3BCFB.7040900@dragonsweb.org> Mike Ford wrote: >>>>Anybody have a CLUE as to its value as scrap? >>>> >>>Apperently it's not insignificant. Supposedly there is considerable >>>gold on the circuit boards. May be water cooler myth, can anyone >>>confirm or deny? >>> >>One of the bad guys (professional scrapper) said he paid $10K for >>Each IBM 360 he got. Sounds like more than $1/llb folks. >> > > *** joke **** > > How do you tell when a professional scrapper is lying? Their lips are moving. > > $4/lb is about the top end for just circuit boards, and then only when > filled with expensive chips in sockets. $0.50 to $1.50 is more common for > well populated boards. > > Ceramic chips with gold pins go by themselves for about $25/lb. > > Aluminum is something like $0.35/lb. > > The rest is mostly breakage which is more like $0.04/lb. > I should have clarified. It's not that significant when you factor in the transport, labor, fuel, processing supplies, hazardous disposal costs, and other overhead. I have had occasion to haul off worn out appliances, junk cars, and such to the scrapper, and I even did a spreadsheet or two for one. The margin is not that high without a little help sometimes, if you know what I mean. Something like that might be going on in the case of the Cyber, and the state may be lucky not to lose more than $10K selling it as scrap, even with a slash-and-burn removal. To be fair, that may represent the least cost method of disposal, at least in terms that beancounters can understand. Unless a rescue plan that will cost the state less, or maybe net it something, is established. jbdigriz From cmurillo at emtelsa.multi.net.co Thu Nov 15 07:24:07 2001 From: cmurillo at emtelsa.multi.net.co (Carlos Murillo) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:11:08 2005 Subject: HP 3000 No More In-Reply-To: <200111150239.fAF2dtb30241@narnia.int.dittman.net> References: <502.719T1700T1705813optimus@canit.se> Message-ID: <3.0.2.32.20011115082407.01dd7e8c@obregon.multi.net.co> At 08:39 PM 11/14/01 -0600, you wrote: >I've messed around a little with MPE, and took the introductory administration >class offered by HP. MPE is an odd operating system. I learned BASIC in an HP3000 series II, I think, back in '78. It had slow graphics terminals; they were very cool. I did not learn anything about administration, though. MPE=multiprogamming executive, i.e., a basic timesharing system in its beginnings. I have the Jan. '73 Hewlett-Packard Journal where it is introduced. Contents: 1) An Economical Full-Scale Multipurpose Computer System. Abstract: This is the first 16-bit computer with a hardware stack architecture and virtual memory. It handles time-sharing, batch- processing, and real-time operations in several languages concurrently 2) Central Bus Links Modular HP3000 Hardware. Abstract: Sharing the bus can be one or more cpu's. I/O processors, memory modules, high-speed I/O channels, and special devices. The microprogrammed cpu's have a procedure-oriented stack architecture. 3) Software for a Multilingual Computer. Abstract: SPL is a high-level language that's as efficient as other system's assembly-language code. Other 3000 languages are FORTRAN, BASIC, and COBOL. 4) Single Operating System Serves all HP Users. Abstract: The Multiprogramming Executive operating system takes care of command interpretation*, file management, memory management, scheduling and dispatching, and input/output management for time-sharing, batch and real-time users. [*] I'm sure it wasn't a preferred OS at AT&T. carlos. -------------------------------------------------------------- Carlos E. Murillo-Sanchez carlos_murillo@nospammers.ieee.org From emu at ecubics.com Thu Nov 15 08:53:35 2001 From: emu at ecubics.com (emanuel stiebler) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:11:08 2005 Subject: HP 3000 No More References: <502.719T1700T1705813optimus@canit.se> <3.0.2.32.20011115082407.01dd7e8c@obregon.multi.net.co> Message-ID: <3BF3D6EF.F3A8BB28@ecubics.com> Anybody has informations about the cpu they used ? From rdd at smart.net Thu Nov 15 10:31:20 2001 From: rdd at smart.net (R. D. Davis) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:11:08 2005 Subject: food In-Reply-To: <200111092304.RAA14007@opal.tseinc.com> Message-ID: Skip to the the end part of this message to learn what typical American meals truly consisted of in the pre-vegetarian times. Hint: ...it wasn't fast food or hamburgers. :-) On Fri, 9 Nov 2001, Chad Fernandez wrote: > You forgor the 80's..... hamburger chains WITH salad bars! Wendys was > the longest running, well into the 90s, but Burger King had one for a > short while too, maybe even McDonalds too... I don't recall. The first fast-food chain that I recall having a salad bar, and that was back around the late 1970's, was White Coffee Pot Jr... not sure if they were just a Baltimore area phenomena or if they existed elsewhere. They were not the typical fast food chain, as, in addition to the salad bar, one could get fried shrimp, carrot cake, crab soup, and towards the end, cheese steak subs. The french fries were delicious as they were cooked in chicken fat (that was back in my pre-semi-vegetarian days); trying to remember if they sold fried chicken as well - I think they did, but can't swear to it. Next, Gino's hamburger chain had a salad bar - that was back in the late 1970's as well. It was an "all you can eat" salad bar, and, if one purchased a hamburger, one could use any toppings one wanted from the salad bar on it - the styrofoam packaging used back then made it very convenient to fit lots of salad toppings in with a hamburger to go. > Mike Ford wrote: > > > Different foods have there times, around the 60s it was "chili bowl" > > joints, 70s salad bars, 80s hamburger chains (that failed to go away). > > Whats an orthodox diner meal, lettuce salad, meat and potatoes with gravy, > > some kind of veggie, and a slice of pie. How about a guess on the top ten > > favorite foods in USA (by meals eaten)? Ok, to help the rest of the world understand the truth about American food, here's what typical American meals really consisted of in the pre-vegeterian times: When I was growing up, we always had a wide variety of vegetables - and they were fresh, not frozen/canned, when in season (corn, peas, string beans, lima beans, peas, sweet potatoes, broccoli, brussel sprouts, lettuce, tomatoes, etc...) with meals; potatoes were often mashed and served with gravy - sometimes they were baked and topped with salt, pepper and butter or margarine. Meats consisted of roasts, steaks, pork chops, ham, chicken, lean ground beef, shrimp, and occasional Cornish game hens. In the summer we also had fried chicken, crab cakes, hamburgers outside on the grill, fried tomatoes, corn on the cob, fried eggplant, fresh salads (definitely not limited to lettuce, by the way), watermellon, etc. There was always fresh fruit to go along with lunches, such as apples, peackes, nectarines, pears, oranges, etc. ...then meals with a turkey to be sliced on Thanksgiving and Christmas. ...and for breakfast, one or more of: cereal with milk, toast, scrambled eggs, waffles, french toast, grapefruit, bacon or Taylor's pork roll, and orange juice to drink. -- Copyright (C) 2001 R. D. Davis The difference between humans & other animals: All Rights Reserved an unnatural belief that we're above Nature & rdd@rddavis.net 410-744-4900 her other creatures, using dogma to justify such http://www.rddavis.net beliefs and to justify much human cruelty. From bbrown at harper.cc.il.us Thu Nov 15 10:16:51 2001 From: bbrown at harper.cc.il.us (Bob Brown) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:11:08 2005 Subject: HP 3000 No More (now HP2000 thread) In-Reply-To: <004301c16cf8$9e2ca620$0101a8c0@jay> References: <7A9BACCEF0171D4FB77019F5104CDD372258FE@jeffserver.tegjeff.com> <004301c16cf8$9e2ca620$0101a8c0@jay> Message-ID: Will your 2000 emulator be able to run ACCESS BASIC and truly emulate a timeshare system? That would be awsome! -Bob >1) I'm suprised Bob Supnik had a negative response from HP on the 2000 >stuff, since they DID in fact make the source code for HP2000/TSB available >(for a fee, but nontheless), even before they end-of-lifed the O/S. > >2) Someone mentioned to me privately about an emulator for the 3000, >thinking it might be hard. It's probably not that hard for the 3000. I am >writing a 2100/21MX emulator that supports multiple cpus, any number of >interface card and firmware add-in (software) modules, etc. from scratch. >It's probably 2/3rds complete, somewhat functional, and really didn't take >that long. Unless there is something terribly unique about the 3000 >architecture (which I know zilch about), I can't imagine it would be that >hard. > >3) The story I'm getting from HP on the 3000 migration path, is Unix Unix >Unix. However, since I seem to be one of the few on the list who really >LIKES unix, perhaps I'm in the minority in thinking that this isn't a bad >thing. > >Jay West >----- Original Message ----- >From: Douglas Quebbeman >To: >Sent: Wednesday, November 14, 2001 3:29 PM >Subject: RE: HP 3000 No More > > > > > According to the press release, they want you to migrate to 9000's or > > > their PC servers products. > > > > > > As for MPE on other platforms.. tempting. They should open source the > > > whole damn thing. That would be an *interesting* read. > > > > fat chance. A group tried to liberate Domain/OS, which they didn't > > even write, to no avail... I think Bob Supnik had the same response > > from them regarding the HP2000/2100 software. > > > > Suits. Can't live with 'em, probably couldn't live without 'em. > > > > -dq > > bbrown@harper.cc.il.us #### #### Bob Brown - KB9LFR Harper Community College ## ## ## Systems Administrator Palatine IL USA #### #### Saved by grace From ernestls at home.com Thu Nov 15 10:30:07 2001 From: ernestls at home.com (Ernest) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:11:08 2005 Subject: Xebec Sider for Apple II In-Reply-To: Message-ID: > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-classiccmp@classiccmp.org > [mailto:owner-classiccmp@classiccmp.org]On Behalf Of Rich Beaudry > Sent: Wednesday, November 14, 2001 11:32 AM > To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org > Subject: Xebec Sider for Apple II > > > Hello all, > > I recently received a Xebec Sider drive (external hard drive for the Apple > II) -- Thanks RE! > > It did not, however, come with the card that goes in the Apple II, nor did > it come with the cable. > > Judging by their going price on eBay, I know this is a futile attempt, but > does anybody have a spare card/cable that they'd be willing to > part with (or > could be pried out of their hands by $)? > > I'd rather not pay eBay prices, so perhaps a trade?? > > Anyway, let me know, and try not to laugh too hard.... I have a complete Sider setup, and it's a fun device to have on an Apple II. >From what I've seen, the cards are not the valuable part of the setup. The Drive is. Like most of the old Apple II cards, the Xebec card is fairly durable and will continue to work for years. The drive on the other hand is not so durable, and of the six that have passed through my hands, only two of them still worked. Plus, it seems that as these old Apple II computers are sold off, the Xebec cards get separated from the drives and sold or given away, and the drives are thrown out, etc. My experience with these setups is the cards are not common but much easier to find than the drive. So if you have the drive, you're well on your way. I should say that before you spend to much effort looking for the card, make sure that your drive works. To do this, plug it in, turn it on, and make sure that the power light comes on and the drive spins up. If the drive doesn't spin up, you could have a problem. If it doesn't spin up, open the case and try switching the power connector to the drive (there are two of them.) If it still doesn't work, then you likely have a dead drive, which is fairly common. The Xebec card is a SASI (not SCSI) controller, and to the best of my knowledge will only work with the Sider drive. That also means that if the drive is dead, you'll have a difficult if not impossible time finding a replacement drive for it. Also, make sure that you're drive has the terminator cap on one of the two plugs on the back. I had to have one custom made because mine was missing. Obviously, you'll also need the connecting cable between the drive and the Xebec card. Anyway, if you turn the drive on, and the power light comes on and the drive spins up, be happy because you'll have a much easier time finding the controller card. Try asking on the comp.sys.apple2 newsgroup. Someone there probably has a spare controller card for it. I have the user manual and setup disks if you get that far, and I can mail copies to you. E. From ernestls at home.com Thu Nov 15 10:33:18 2001 From: ernestls at home.com (Ernest) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:11:09 2005 Subject: Xebec Sider for Apple II In-Reply-To: <10111150822.ZM11842@mindy.dunnington.u-net.com> Message-ID: > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-classiccmp@classiccmp.org > [mailto:owner-classiccmp@classiccmp.org]On Behalf Of Pete Turnbull > What would it look like? I assume it would have a ribbon > connector between > the Apple card and the Sider. Do you know how many pins? I don't think > the card I have is what you want, but you never know... It has a Xebec label on the card, and a wide rainbow ribbon cable comming directly off the tail end of the card. E. From cmurillo at multi.net.co Thu Nov 15 00:34:55 2001 From: cmurillo at multi.net.co (cmurillo@multi.net.co) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:11:09 2005 Subject: HP 3000 No More In-Reply-To: <3BF3D6EF.F3A8BB28@ecubics.com> Message-ID: <3BB85F7D00002DE0@obregon.multi.net.co> Emanuel wrote: > >Anybody has informations about the cpu they used ? See my earlier post about how they started back in '73; 16 bit, virtual mem, multi-cpu capable, hardware stack for fast context switching; very oriented towards time sharing. Now MPE runs on PA-RISC; I don't know what the architecture of HP3000 was in the 80's and until they started to use PA-RISC. Does anybody know when it became 32bit? carlos. From rdd at smart.net Thu Nov 15 11:00:39 2001 From: rdd at smart.net (R. D. Davis) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:11:09 2005 Subject: AI and mythology - and let's stop the spirituality flaming (was: OT again Re: food) In-Reply-To: <200111092304.RAA14007@opal.tseinc.com> Message-ID: In some previous message, Marvin Johston wrote: > Subject: OT again Re: food It never ceases to amaze me how messages that start out pertaining to classic computers can become transformed into messages about food and then into messages pertaining to philosophy, mythology and religion. :-) To help steer things back on-topic, is anyone here familiar with AI programs pertaining to mythology used on classic computers? > I can't believe there is anybody who doesn't believe in God. I could reply with: Hey, why'd you leave out the other half, the Goddess that some of us also believe in? :-) ...although perhaps some of us don't believe in a God and Goddess literally, but as balanced manifestations of the divine. However... Let's please not have religious warfare on this list; the world has seen more than enough of that. Some of us believe in some form, or forms, of deity literally; some of us take an approach similar to that of Albert Einstein, an agnostic approach, and just consider it all to be a mystery that we don't have definite knowledge of, but feel that some form of deity and afterlife exist and still value spirituality, etc. Are these not all just different paths to the same thing, with more similarites than differences once the dogma is stripped away? There's n benefit to arguing or fighting over the differences... different spiritual beliefs work for, and are helpful to, different people. Then, there are the atheiests who don't believe in the spiritual at all - but it's not for me to censure them for their disbelief, just as it's not right for them to censure anyone else for their beliefs. -- Copyright (C) 2001 R. D. Davis The difference between humans & other animals: All Rights Reserved an unnatural belief that we're above Nature & rdd@rddavis.net 410-744-4900 her other creatures, using dogma to justify such http://www.rddavis.net beliefs and to justify much human cruelty. From dogas at bellsouth.net Thu Nov 15 10:50:28 2001 From: dogas at bellsouth.net (Mike) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:11:09 2005 Subject: Altair32 Emulator - StarTrek Runs! References: Message-ID: <000901c16df5$a2630ce0$2819d7d1@DOMAIN> > Hello, all: > > Another minor success. With the help of Mike Dogas, I was able to get > Altair BASIC 4.0 (8K BASIC) running in the emulator. With that comes support > for strings. With strings, Super StarTrek. Whoo, hoo! > > Thanks Mike! > Cool! Thanks Rich. But I must redirect thanks to Joe R. from whom I recently was given he manual (and an Altair pile that would make many here gag... ;)) that helped out in this case. Thank you Joe! Altair32 is looking good and I'll most likely play Startrek there before I can on the real thing. Great work, Rich! :) - Mike: dogas@bellsouth.net (Mike/dogas not Mike Dogas...) From h.wolter at sympatico.ca Thu Nov 15 11:04:31 2001 From: h.wolter at sympatico.ca (Heinz Wolter) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:11:09 2005 Subject: what model pdp8 is this? References: Message-ID: <013601c16df7$97d73e20$3a92a8c0@MAGGIE> there's a pdp8 system on ebay, but they don't say what model it is. I'm looking for a pdp8 - is this likely one? The only one I've seen has an orange front panel, while this one has blue ??? Can I assume since it has a PC04 PC8E reader/punch that it's an 8E or could it be something else (8I?) with a bus converter? I'm a PDP-11 guy - don't know much about PDP8's - so any help is welcome. http://cgi.ebay.com/aw-cgi/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=1295494879&r=0&t=0&sh owTutorial=0&ed=1005918606&indexURL=0&rd=1 regards, Heinz From allain at panix.com Thu Nov 15 11:28:48 2001 From: allain at panix.com (John Allain) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:11:09 2005 Subject: paging Dr VMS References: <000901c16df5$a2630ce0$2819d7d1@DOMAIN> Message-ID: <002401c16dfa$fcb5a9a0$8a0101ac@ibm23xhr06> I picked up a uVAX 3500 a while back, and as a gift horse it came with some fixer-upper problems, not too many, I hope. There's two drives, one dead, the other with OpenVMS 6.0. It comes up fast enough but runs a few minutes then starts hanging for 5 minutes or so. Paging from the dead drive I wonder? It's a station and as such boots on the graphics hardware so I can't capture output but I thought errors WRT paging may have gone by. Q1: Where are the commands for showing and setting physical page files buried? Q2: Can I boot from serial console without pulling the graphics cards? TIA for the QIO. John A. From lemay at cs.umn.edu Thu Nov 15 11:42:40 2001 From: lemay at cs.umn.edu (Lawrence LeMay) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:11:09 2005 Subject: what model pdp8 is this? In-Reply-To: <013601c16df7$97d73e20$3a92a8c0@MAGGIE> Message-ID: <200111151742.LAA24078@caesar.cs.umn.edu> Its an Industrial-8, which is to say, it is a PDP 8/E with a different color front panel. -Lawrence LeMay > there's a pdp8 system on ebay, but they don't say > what model it is. I'm looking for a pdp8 - is this likely one? > The only one I've seen has an orange front panel, while > this one has blue ??? > > Can I assume since it has a PC04 PC8E reader/punch > that it's an 8E or could it be something else (8I?) with > a bus converter? > > I'm a PDP-11 guy - don't know much about PDP8's - so > any help is welcome. > > http://cgi.ebay.com/aw-cgi/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=1295494879&r=0&t=0&sh > owTutorial=0&ed=1005918606&indexURL=0&rd=1 > > regards, > Heinz > From erd_6502 at yahoo.com Thu Nov 15 11:58:41 2001 From: erd_6502 at yahoo.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:11:09 2005 Subject: QBUS FDDI (DEFQA) In-Reply-To: <200111141828.fAEISHE28998@narnia.int.dittman.net> Message-ID: <20011115175841.64188.qmail@web20105.mail.yahoo.com> --- Eric Dittman wrote: > I'm in the process of converting most of my systems to FDDI, but > a QBUS FDDI adapter is holding me up. Does anyone have a DEFQA > they want to sell or trade? I didn't know they ever made one. Is it _real_ FDDI or FDDI over UTP (CDDI, sometimes called)? I recently passed up a small box of EISA CDDI cards. Too much other schtuff in the car and it was a pay-per-trip to scavenge stuff. Got a dual P-150, though. Make a nice Linux box. -ethan __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Find the one for you at Yahoo! Personals http://personals.yahoo.com From erd_6502 at yahoo.com Thu Nov 15 12:28:18 2001 From: erd_6502 at yahoo.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:11:09 2005 Subject: 6502 vs the world (was Re: hard-sector 5 1/4 disk) In-Reply-To: <200111131723.JAA25231@ellie.ssl.berkeley.edu> Message-ID: <20011115182818.90966.qmail@web20102.mail.yahoo.com> --- "Eric J. Korpela" wrote: > > Then again, I don't join my fellow Apple ][ collectors in claiming that > the 6502 was the best processor on the market either. Like all religions, > the true believers will always shout down the heretics. Well... For the era and for price/performance I think it _was_ one of the best processors on the market in 1977 (the field being so small, it's easier to be the best ;-) Of course, best at _what_ is always the question. It was hardly the best for running CP/M, so if that's what you wanted, it wasn't even a contender. It was the best at doing what it ended up doing - being an inexpensive general-purpose processor at the heart of consumer machines. Plus at it's initial $20/each price, it was hard to approach from an Intel or Motorola standpoint. Make it very attractive for the <$1000 market. Personally, I've always liked the Commodore machines, but, then my first experience was with a 4K PET. Made lots of money on the Apple ][ (and the C-64), so does _that_ make it better? Maybe. In any case, if I have the time to play with 8-bitters, I prefer spending the time on the PET and its relatives as opposed to "newer" computers, but it's strictly a personal preference, not a ringing endorsement. -ethan __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Find the one for you at Yahoo! Personals http://personals.yahoo.com From vze2wsvr at verizon.net Thu Nov 15 12:30:58 2001 From: vze2wsvr at verizon.net (Eric Chomko) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:11:09 2005 Subject: AI and mythology - and let's stop the spirituality flaming (was: OTagain Re: food) References: Message-ID: <3BF409E2.4D00949A@verizon.net> "R. D. Davis" wrote: > In some previous message, Marvin Johston wrote: > > Subject: OT again Re: food > > It never ceases to amaze me how messages that start out pertaining to > classic computers can become transformed into messages about food and > then into messages pertaining to philosophy, mythology and > religion. :-) > > To help steer things back on-topic, is anyone here familiar with AI > programs pertaining to mythology used on classic computers? > As in an Expert System or Neural Network program or something? > > > I can't believe there is anybody who doesn't believe in God. > > I could reply with: Hey, why'd you leave out the other half, the > Goddess that some of us also believe in? :-) ...although perhaps some > of us don't believe in a God and Goddess literally, but as balanced > manifestations of the divine. However... > > Let's please not have religious warfare on this list; the world has > seen more than enough of that. > > Some of us believe in some form, or forms, of deity literally; some of > us take an approach similar to that of Albert Einstein, an agnostic > approach, and just consider it all to be a mystery that we don't have > definite knowledge of, but feel that some form of deity and afterlife > exist and still value spirituality, etc. Are these not all just > different paths to the same thing, with more similarites than > differences once the dogma is stripped away? There's n benefit to > arguing or fighting over the differences... different spiritual > beliefs work for, and are helpful to, different people. Then, there > are the atheiests who don't believe in the spiritual at all - but it's > not for me to censure them for their disbelief, just as it's not right > for them to censure anyone else for their beliefs. > Well said, I could not have said it better myself! Eric > > -- > Copyright (C) 2001 R. D. Davis The difference between humans & other animals: > All Rights Reserved an unnatural belief that we're above Nature & > rdd@rddavis.net 410-744-4900 her other creatures, using dogma to justify such > http://www.rddavis.net beliefs and to justify much human cruelty. From erd_6502 at yahoo.com Thu Nov 15 12:36:29 2001 From: erd_6502 at yahoo.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:11:09 2005 Subject: VAX (Was: Cromemco landmarks) In-Reply-To: <1783.716T1550T1825667optimus@canit.se> Message-ID: <20011115183629.91977.qmail@web20102.mail.yahoo.com> --- Iggy Drougge wrote: > Mind you, the original MicroVAX was only 0,3 VUP (I really hope I'm right > this time =). AFAIK, you are. My memory of the (s)low end of VAXen is... VUPs Model 0.3 uVAX-I 0.4 11/725 & 11/730 0.6 11/750 0.9 uVAX-II, VAX8200 1.0 11/780 (the first one of these I _don't_ own ;-) Speaking of the 8200, does anyone have any 8250 CPUs lying around? I would love to take my 8300 up to an 8350. I'd rather trade than buy at this point - it's a very low-priority upgrade. -ethan __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Find the one for you at Yahoo! Personals http://personals.yahoo.com From erd_6502 at yahoo.com Thu Nov 15 12:57:39 2001 From: erd_6502 at yahoo.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:11:09 2005 Subject: Cable and connector source In-Reply-To: <10111090804.ZM5912@mindy.dunnington.u-net.com> Message-ID: <20011115185739.81953.qmail@web20109.mail.yahoo.com> --- Pete Turnbull wrote: > There's a trick to soldering them. Stick the plug in a socket (or, btter > still, a potato) to solder it. It stops things getting too hot and > melting. I've done the socket thing, but I've never done a potato... wouldn't you get lots of residual starch on the pins? -ethan __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Find the one for you at Yahoo! Personals http://personals.yahoo.com From pete at dunnington.u-net.com Thu Nov 15 13:05:06 2001 From: pete at dunnington.u-net.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:11:09 2005 Subject: Xebec Sider for Apple II In-Reply-To: "Ernest" "RE: Xebec Sider for Apple II" (Nov 15, 8:33) References: Message-ID: <10111151905.ZM12173@mindy.dunnington.u-net.com> On Nov 15, 8:33, Ernest wrote: > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: owner-classiccmp@classiccmp.org > > [mailto:owner-classiccmp@classiccmp.org]On Behalf Of Pete Turnbull > > > What would it look like? I assume it would have a ribbon > > connector between > > the Apple card and the Sider. Do you know how many pins? I don't think > > the card I have is what you want, but you never know... > > It has a Xebec label on the card, and a wide rainbow ribbon cable comming > directly off the tail end of the card. Yeah, but how wide is "wide"? The card I have seems not to be what's required. It's intended to connect to a Xebec card all right, but the connector is only 26-way. Thanks to Dick Erlacher who mailed me with the details, I know the Sider needs rather more wires (all 50, probably). My card was made by HAL Computers Ltd in 1983, labelled "APPLE 2/3 XEBEC INTERFACE REV 1", and the only strings I can find in the EPROM are "(C) HAL COMPUTERS LTD 1983 A/XHAL SHARED RESOURCE WINCHESTER SYSTEM", "NOT CONNECTED", and "SRS ERROR". If anybody knows any more about this, I'd be interested to hear about it, otherwise it will languish in my box of odd cards for a day when I'm particularly bored and decide to try it out (yes, I have a spare Xebec controller and ST412 drives). -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager University of York From pete at dunnington.u-net.com Thu Nov 15 13:22:10 2001 From: pete at dunnington.u-net.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:11:09 2005 Subject: Cable and connector source In-Reply-To: Ethan Dicks "Re: Cable and connector source" (Nov 15, 10:57) References: <20011115185739.81953.qmail@web20109.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <10111151922.ZM12243@mindy.dunnington.u-net.com> On Nov 15, 10:57, Ethan Dicks wrote: > > --- Pete Turnbull wrote: > > There's a trick to soldering them. Stick the plug in a socket (or, btter > > still, a potato) to solder it. It stops things getting too hot and > > melting. > > I've done the socket thing, but I've never done a potato... wouldn't you > get lots of residual starch on the pins? Not a lot. And it's not corrosive. Don't use an apple :-) -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager University of York From george at racsys.rt.rain.com Thu Nov 15 13:27:39 2001 From: george at racsys.rt.rain.com (George Leo Rachor Jr.) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:11:09 2005 Subject: Xebec Sider for Apple II In-Reply-To: <10111151905.ZM12173@mindy.dunnington.u-net.com> Message-ID: There were at least 2 versions of Sider drives/Cards... One was a straight ribbon cable... The other looked like a standard SCSI cable but I don't remember if it was a real scsi interface or not... George Rachor ========================================================= George L. Rachor Jr. george@rachors.com Hillsboro, Oregon http://rachors.com United States of America Amateur Radio : KD7DCX On Thu, 15 Nov 2001, Pete Turnbull wrote: > On Nov 15, 8:33, Ernest wrote: > > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > From: owner-classiccmp@classiccmp.org > > > [mailto:owner-classiccmp@classiccmp.org]On Behalf Of Pete Turnbull > > > > > What would it look like? I assume it would have a ribbon > > > connector between > > > the Apple card and the Sider. Do you know how many pins? I don't > think > > > the card I have is what you want, but you never know... > > > > It has a Xebec label on the card, and a wide rainbow ribbon cable comming > > directly off the tail end of the card. > > Yeah, but how wide is "wide"? > > The card I have seems not to be what's required. It's intended to connect > to a Xebec card all right, but the connector is only 26-way. Thanks to > Dick Erlacher who mailed me with the details, I know the Sider needs rather > more wires (all 50, probably). > > My card was made by HAL Computers Ltd in 1983, labelled "APPLE 2/3 XEBEC > INTERFACE REV 1", and the only strings I can find in the EPROM are "(C) HAL > COMPUTERS LTD 1983 A/XHAL SHARED RESOURCE WINCHESTER SYSTEM", "NOT > CONNECTED", and "SRS ERROR". If anybody knows any more about this, I'd be > interested to hear about it, otherwise it will languish in my box of odd > cards for a day when I'm particularly bored and decide to try it out (yes, > I have a spare Xebec controller and ST412 drives). > > -- > Pete Peter Turnbull > Network Manager > University of York > From healyzh at aracnet.com Thu Nov 15 13:51:34 2001 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:11:09 2005 Subject: paging Dr VMS In-Reply-To: <002401c16dfa$fcb5a9a0$8a0101ac@ibm23xhr06> References: <000901c16df5$a2630ce0$2819d7d1@DOMAIN> Message-ID: >Q1: Where are the commands for showing and setting > physical page files buried? If I understand what you're asking SHOW MEM will show what they're set to at the bottom. Not sure off the top of my head how to change them. >Q2: Can I boot from serial console without pulling the > graphics cards? Not that I'm aware of. On a MV2 you can't, on non Q-Bus workstations you normally can. Look at it this way, if you pull the cards you're saving power ;^) Zane -- | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator | | healyzh@aracnet.com (primary) | OpenVMS Enthusiast | | | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | PDP-10 Emulation and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | From healyzh at aracnet.com Thu Nov 15 13:54:24 2001 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:11:09 2005 Subject: what model pdp8 is this? In-Reply-To: <013601c16df7$97d73e20$3a92a8c0@MAGGIE> References: Message-ID: >there's a pdp8 system on ebay, but they don't say >what model it is. I'm looking for a pdp8 - is this likely one? >The only one I've seen has an orange front panel, while >this one has blue ??? > >Can I assume since it has a PC04 PC8E reader/punch >that it's an 8E or could it be something else (8I?) with >a bus converter? It's either an -e, -f, or -m in an industrial package. Interesting looking system. Zane -- | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator | | healyzh@aracnet.com (primary) | OpenVMS Enthusiast | | | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | PDP-10 Emulation and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | From mikeford at socal.rr.com Thu Nov 15 14:42:57 2001 From: mikeford at socal.rr.com (Mike Ford) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:11:09 2005 Subject: IBM partnerworld, AIX OS/2 etc In-Reply-To: References: <004301c16cf8$9e2ca620$0101a8c0@jay> <7A9BACCEF0171D4FB77019F5104CDD372258FE@jeffserver.tegjeff.com> <004301c16cf8$9e2ca620$0101a8c0@jay> Message-ID: I tend to join anything on the net with a free t shirt, but this looks like it might be of interest to some of you classic comper too. If you select downloads on the top left area you can get a complete list of the tools available free for download. Lots of Os/2 and AIX stuff, but I don't know enough to say good or bad. From vze2mnvr at verizon.net Thu Nov 15 15:12:53 2001 From: vze2mnvr at verizon.net (Ian Koller) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:11:09 2005 Subject: Fw: Control Data Cyber 960 rescue interest? References: <3BF2F17F.7060001@dragonsweb.org> <3BF3BCFB.7040900@dragonsweb.org> Message-ID: <3BF42FD5.867554FD@verizon.net> > worn out appliances, junk cars, and such Why don't you get a grip. If your experience is in worn out appliances and junk cars, your experience is sorely limited. "James B. DiGriz" wrote: > > Mike Ford wrote: > > >>>>Anybody have a CLUE as to its value as scrap? > >>>> > >>>Apperently it's not insignificant. Supposedly there is considerable > >>>gold on the circuit boards. May be water cooler myth, can anyone > >>>confirm or deny? > >>> > >>One of the bad guys (professional scrapper) said he paid $10K for > >>Each IBM 360 he got. Sounds like more than $1/llb folks. > >> > > > > *** joke **** > > > > How do you tell when a professional scrapper is lying? Their lips are moving. > > > > $4/lb is about the top end for just circuit boards, and then only when > > filled with expensive chips in sockets. $0.50 to $1.50 is more common for > > well populated boards. > > > > Ceramic chips with gold pins go by themselves for about $25/lb. > > > > Aluminum is something like $0.35/lb. > > > > The rest is mostly breakage which is more like $0.04/lb. > > > > I should have clarified. It's not that significant when you factor in > the transport, labor, fuel, processing supplies, hazardous disposal > costs, and other overhead. I have had occasion to haul off worn out > appliances, junk cars, and such to the scrapper, and I even did a > spreadsheet or two for one. The margin is not that high without a little > help sometimes, if you know what I mean. > > Something like that might be going on in the case of the Cyber, and the > state may be lucky not to lose more than $10K selling it as scrap, even > with a slash-and-burn removal. > > To be fair, that may represent the least cost method of disposal, at > least in terms that beancounters can understand. Unless a rescue plan > that will cost the state less, or maybe net it something, is established. > > jbdigriz From edick at idcomm.com Thu Nov 15 15:21:41 2001 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:11:09 2005 Subject: Xebec Sider for Apple II References: Message-ID: <002201c16e1b$8562c6a0$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> My limited experience with XEBEC has been that the majority of their products were interfaced via SASI rather than by SCSI. Since I've seen and handled a couple of these SIDER boxes, having acquired one for purposes of using the box and PSU, and having sent Rich the drive he's trying to figure out, I know what the cabling arrangements in at least one of them were. The interconnection is done via a DC37 connector at the rear of the rather long, narrow, tall box, to provide for a daisy chain or a terminator plug. The cable seems to utilize all 37 conductors, though it does so in an arrangement different from the way in which the signals are arranged on the 37-to-50 conductor adapters used by IOMEGA in their Bernoulli Box devices. Unfortunately, I've no knowledge of what the Apple][ adapter to this interface looks like, never having seen one myself. I'm convinced at this point that the cables useable with the IOMEGA type of device will work with the SIDER, but I doubt the terminator will work. Bernoulli Boxes were internally terminated, while the SIDER was not. That's easily remedied, however, since an adapter from the 37-pin arrangement to a standard 50-pin SCSI would be easily built. There are numerous versions of a [DB-25]<=>[SCSI 50-conductor] adapter so it's possible that even a 25-pin to 37-pin cable could be used. It will probably have to be made up for this purpose, however. I do not believe that XEBEC made a 25-pin version of this baby. I recently saw an Apple][ board with a 40-conductor ribbon cable connector on it, and that might have been a way of attaching to a DC37, but I didn't think to look more carefully at that board. Dick ----- Original Message ----- From: "George Leo Rachor Jr." To: Sent: Thursday, November 15, 2001 12:27 PM Subject: Re: Xebec Sider for Apple II > There were at least 2 versions of Sider drives/Cards... > > One was a straight ribbon cable... The other looked like a standard SCSI > cable but I don't remember if it was a real scsi interface or not... > > George Rachor > > ========================================================= > George L. Rachor Jr. george@rachors.com > Hillsboro, Oregon http://rachors.com > United States of America Amateur Radio : KD7DCX > > On Thu, 15 Nov 2001, Pete Turnbull wrote: > > > On Nov 15, 8:33, Ernest wrote: > > > > > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > > From: owner-classiccmp@classiccmp.org > > > > [mailto:owner-classiccmp@classiccmp.org]On Behalf Of Pete Turnbull > > > > > > > What would it look like? I assume it would have a ribbon > > > > connector between > > > > the Apple card and the Sider. Do you know how many pins? I don't > > think > > > > the card I have is what you want, but you never know... > > > > > > It has a Xebec label on the card, and a wide rainbow ribbon cable comming > > > directly off the tail end of the card. > > > > Yeah, but how wide is "wide"? > > > > The card I have seems not to be what's required. It's intended to connect > > to a Xebec card all right, but the connector is only 26-way. Thanks to > > Dick Erlacher who mailed me with the details, I know the Sider needs rather > > more wires (all 50, probably). > > > > My card was made by HAL Computers Ltd in 1983, labelled "APPLE 2/3 XEBEC > > INTERFACE REV 1", and the only strings I can find in the EPROM are "(C) HAL > > COMPUTERS LTD 1983 A/XHAL SHARED RESOURCE WINCHESTER SYSTEM", "NOT > > CONNECTED", and "SRS ERROR". If anybody knows any more about this, I'd be > > interested to hear about it, otherwise it will languish in my box of odd > > cards for a day when I'm particularly bored and decide to try it out (yes, > > I have a spare Xebec controller and ST412 drives). > > > > -- > > Pete Peter Turnbull > > Network Manager > > University of York > > > > From vze2mnvr at verizon.net Thu Nov 15 15:24:20 2001 From: vze2mnvr at verizon.net (Ian Koller) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:11:09 2005 Subject: Fw: Control Data Cyber 960 rescue interest? References: <200111150101.fAF11jJ30003@narnia.int.dittman.net> Message-ID: <3BF43284.B09EC2DF@verizon.net> Eric Dittman wrote: > but I know that the businesses I've worked for consider > fully depreciated items as $0 value and therefore disposable. But that's only from tax deduction considerations. The "big picture" involves more than that. > and therefore disposable. Disposal doesn't necessarily mean trashing it. Can mean selling it. The keyword is "RESIDUAL" scrap value. Eric Dittman wrote: > > > > Shouldn't it be fully depreciated by now? > > > > But it has residual scrap value. Hard money that goes back > > into the states general fund. And believe this, they are not > > a charity. > > I know they aren't a charity, but I know that the businesses > I've worked for consider fully depreciated items as $0 value > and therefore disposable. > -- > Eric Dittman > dittman@dittman.net > Check out the DEC Enthusiasts Club at http://www.dittman.net/ From foo at siconic.com Thu Nov 15 15:21:38 2001 From: foo at siconic.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:11:09 2005 Subject: Fw: Control Data Cyber 960 rescue interest? In-Reply-To: <3BF3099B.3267DE@verizon.net> Message-ID: On Wed, 14 Nov 2001, Ian Koller wrote: > > I'm sure you could get the machine released into your hands > for > some minor kickback > > This could probably land you in jail. Even suggesting it may be > construed as conspiracy to commit the act. Nevertheless, this does go on. Don't act so naive ;) Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org From foo at siconic.com Thu Nov 15 15:23:30 2001 From: foo at siconic.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:11:09 2005 Subject: Fw: Control Data Cyber 960 rescue interest? In-Reply-To: <3BF30BC1.2060000@dragonsweb.org> Message-ID: On Wed, 14 Nov 2001, James B. DiGriz wrote: > > James, I assure you William was trying to be helpful and had your > > interests at heart. He's from the North, and he's apparently not familiar > > with your good-ole-boy Southern ways ;) > > Did I say I thought he wasn't or hadn't? What's this supposed to mean, > anyway? You jumped all over him for making a helpful suggestion. That's a poor way to treat folks who are trying to be helpful. > Now you appear to think you're patronizing me. I think this discussion > is exhausted. I think you're getting way too emotional about this. Take a chill pill. Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org From vze2mnvr at verizon.net Thu Nov 15 15:36:12 2001 From: vze2mnvr at verizon.net (Ian Koller) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:11:09 2005 Subject: QBUS FDDI (DEFQA) References: <20011115175841.64188.qmail@web20105.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <3BF4354C.8D5390E1@verizon.net> Ethan Dicks wrote: > I didn't know they ever made one. M7534 DEFQA QBus to FDDI Interface Ethan Dicks wrote: > > --- Eric Dittman wrote: > > I'm in the process of converting most of my systems to FDDI, but > > a QBUS FDDI adapter is holding me up. Does anyone have a DEFQA > > they want to sell or trade? > > I didn't know they ever made one. Is it _real_ FDDI or FDDI over UTP > (CDDI, sometimes called)? I recently passed up a small box of EISA CDDI > cards. Too much other schtuff in the car and it was a pay-per-trip to > scavenge stuff. Got a dual P-150, though. Make a nice Linux box. > > -ethan > > __________________________________________________ > Do You Yahoo!? > Find the one for you at Yahoo! Personals > http://personals.yahoo.com From mcguire at neurotica.com Thu Nov 15 15:42:28 2001 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:11:09 2005 Subject: VAX (Was: Cromemco landmarks) In-Reply-To: Re: VAX (Was: Cromemco landmarks) (Ethan Dicks) References: <1783.716T1550T1825667optimus@canit.se> <20011115183629.91977.qmail@web20102.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <15348.14020.285474.754228@phaduka.neurotica.com> On November 15, Ethan Dicks wrote: > Speaking of the 8200, does anyone have any 8250 CPUs lying around? I > would love to take my 8300 up to an 8350. I'd rather trade than buy > at this point - it's a very low-priority upgrade. I may have a couple. I will keep my eye out for them as I unpack my stuff post-move. If you don't find some in a few weeks, ping me. -Dave -- Dave McGuire St. Petersburg, FL From mcguire at neurotica.com Thu Nov 15 15:45:30 2001 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:11:09 2005 Subject: QBUS FDDI (DEFQA) In-Reply-To: Re: QBUS FDDI (DEFQA) (Ethan Dicks) References: <200111141828.fAEISHE28998@narnia.int.dittman.net> <20011115175841.64188.qmail@web20105.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <15348.14202.315295.414160@phaduka.neurotica.com> On November 15, Ethan Dicks wrote: > > I'm in the process of converting most of my systems to FDDI, but > > a QBUS FDDI adapter is holding me up. Does anyone have a DEFQA > > they want to sell or trade? > > I didn't know they ever made one. Is it _real_ FDDI or FDDI over UTP > (CDDI, sometimes called)? I recently passed up a small box of EISA CDDI > cards. Too much other schtuff in the car and it was a pay-per-trip to > scavenge stuff. Got a dual P-150, though. Make a nice Linux box. Yup, they made 'em. Scarce as hen's teeth. I finally got one (purely by chance, actually!) after a *lot* of searching. -Dave -- Dave McGuire St. Petersburg, FL From foo at siconic.com Thu Nov 15 15:45:48 2001 From: foo at siconic.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:11:09 2005 Subject: Xebec Sider for Apple II In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Thu, 15 Nov 2001, Ernest wrote: > From what I've seen, the cards are not the valuable part of the setup. > The Drive is. Like most of the old Apple II cards, the Xebec card is > fairly durable and will continue to work for years. The drive on the > other hand is not so durable, and of the six that have passed through > my hands, only two of them still worked. I have a Sider ][ (20 megger) I bought second-hand in around 1989 that had been used for about 3 years in a 24/7 BBS. It still works to this day. It had better...I still have tons of files that I need to get off of it before its eventual demise :) I also have I think one other Sider ][ and two Siders (the 10 meg version) as well as a B-Sider (the tape backup unit). I got one Sider from my old high school computer science teacher when I bought his Apple //e setup, which never worked. The other Sider was found at a thrift store and works great. I've used it at the VCF a couple times for processing registrations. The Sider ][ was found at a local electronics surplus store and doesn't work. All in all, I find them to be fairly durable. > Plus, it seems that as these old Apple II computers are sold off, the > Xebec cards get separated from the drives and sold or given away, and > the drives are thrown out, etc. My experience with these setups is the > cards are not common but much easier to find than the drive. So if you > have the drive, you're well on your way. Yes, many times I've opened an Apple ][ to find the Xebec controller inside. Nobody thinks to pull the card and keep it with the drive, most likely because they just don't know. > I should say that before you spend to much effort looking for the > card, make sure that your drive works. To do this, plug it in, turn it > on, and make sure that the power light comes on and the drive spins > up. If the drive doesn't spin up, you could have a problem. If it > doesn't spin up, open the case and try switching the power connector > to the drive (there are two of them.) If it still doesn't work, then > you likely have a dead drive, which is fairly common. I don't know what's in the Sider, but the Sider ][ has a standard Seagate ST-225. If you can find a good ST-225 then all you need are the Sider utilities to reformat the drive and you're golden. > The Xebec card is a SASI (not SCSI) controller, and to the best of my > knowledge will only work with the Sider drive. That also means that if the > drive is dead, you'll have a difficult if not impossible time finding a > replacement drive for it. Also, make sure that you're drive has the The interface is SASI, but see above. The drive is standard MFM (or would that be RLL?) > terminator cap on one of the two plugs on the back. I had to have one > custom made because mine was missing. Obviously, you'll also need the > connecting cable between the drive and the Xebec card. The cable and terminator cap usually turn up missing as well. Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org From jbdigriz at dragonsweb.org Thu Nov 15 16:14:35 2001 From: jbdigriz at dragonsweb.org (James B. DiGriz) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:11:09 2005 Subject: Fw: Control Data Cyber 960 rescue interest? References: <3BF2F17F.7060001@dragonsweb.org> <3BF3BCFB.7040900@dragonsweb.org> <3BF42FD5.867554FD@verizon.net> Message-ID: <3BF43E4B.3030609@dragonsweb.org> Ian Koller wrote: > >>worn out appliances, junk cars, and such >> > > Why don't you get a grip. If your experience is in worn out > appliances and junk cars, your experience is sorely limited. > > No, I was once forced to take a loaded OSI system in a small rack with a 14" disk, about 4 processors, boxes of extra cards including dual 6502 cards, and about half a room full of old Motorola RF switch consoles and Unisys terminals to the landfill. Never again. p.s. I still have one of those OSI disks. It's probably junk, I was told it was junk when I got it, but there are usable parts. Anyone needs it, they can have it for shipping. It's heavy. jbdigriz From dittman at dittman.net Thu Nov 15 16:16:29 2001 From: dittman at dittman.net (Eric Dittman) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:11:09 2005 Subject: QBUS FDDI (DEFQA) In-Reply-To: <20011115175841.64188.qmail@web20105.mail.yahoo.com> from "Ethan Dicks" at Nov 15, 2001 09:58:41 AM Message-ID: <200111152216.fAFMGTj32450@narnia.int.dittman.net> > > I'm in the process of converting most of my systems to FDDI, but > > a QBUS FDDI adapter is holding me up. Does anyone have a DEFQA > > they want to sell or trade? > > I didn't know they ever made one. Is it _real_ FDDI or FDDI over UTP > (CDDI, sometimes called)? I recently passed up a small box of EISA CDDI > cards. Too much other schtuff in the car and it was a pay-per-trip to > scavenge stuff. Got a dual P-150, though. Make a nice Linux box. According to what I've read, the card is FDDI and not CDDI (which is how I refer to FDDI over copper, since there's not any F in CDDI). -- Eric Dittman dittman@dittman.net Check out the DEC Enthusiasts Club at http://www.dittman.net/ From dittman at dittman.net Thu Nov 15 16:20:40 2001 From: dittman at dittman.net (Eric Dittman) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:11:09 2005 Subject: paging Dr VMS In-Reply-To: <002401c16dfa$fcb5a9a0$8a0101ac@ibm23xhr06> from "John Allain" at Nov 15, 2001 12:28:48 PM Message-ID: <200111152220.fAFMKes32507@narnia.int.dittman.net> > Q1: Where are the commands for showing and setting > physical page files buried? Check SYS$UPDATE:SWAPFILES.COM. That will cover the page, swap, and dump files on the system disk. If there are any not on the system disk, you need to look through the startup files to see where they are used. > Q2: Can I boot from serial console without pulling the > graphics cards? It depends on the system. IIRC the QBUS systems require pulling the graphics cards as there isn't a switch to set to tell the system to use a serial console. -- Eric Dittman dittman@dittman.net Check out the DEC Enthusiasts Club at http://www.dittman.net/ From jbdigriz at dragonsweb.org Thu Nov 15 16:35:33 2001 From: jbdigriz at dragonsweb.org (James B. DiGriz) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:11:09 2005 Subject: Fw: Control Data Cyber 960 rescue interest? References: Message-ID: <3BF44335.6070005@dragonsweb.org> Sellam Ismail wrote: > On Wed, 14 Nov 2001, James B. DiGriz wrote: > > >>>James, I assure you William was trying to be helpful and had your >>>interests at heart. He's from the North, and he's apparently not familiar >>>with your good-ole-boy Southern ways ;) >>> >>Did I say I thought he wasn't or hadn't? What's this supposed to mean, >>anyway? >> > > You jumped all over him for making a helpful suggestion. That's a poor > way to treat folks who are trying to be helpful. > That's not what I did. If I jumped on anything, it was his suggestion, not him or his intent, and it shouldn't be taken otherwise. Perhaps I could have phrased it better, but my intention also was to be helpful and informative. > >>Now you appear to think you're patronizing me. I think this discussion >>is exhausted. >> > > I think you're getting way too emotional about this. Take a chill pill. > Oh, please. I'll take a shot of bourbon, though. jbdigriz From edick at idcomm.com Thu Nov 15 17:30:16 2001 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:11:09 2005 Subject: OT: paging MAC expert(s) --- What's a Performa? References: <200111152220.fAFMKes32507@narnia.int.dittman.net> Message-ID: <001201c16e2d$7b747d20$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> I had a mental lapse today and, as I was unloading the stuff in my car, noticed that I had, among the rest of the stuff, a pretty complete Mac Performa 630CD. This found its way into my car because it was fairly complete, i.e. included keyboard/mouse, monitor, modem, color printer, cables, etc. including some documentation including CD's, registration doc's, instructions, etc. I'm curious what interesting hardware I should find in the box? Is the hard disk worth salvaging? What sort of memory is likely to be found inside? Any suggestions as to how best to exploit this thing? I noticed among the documentation that it apparently has the ability to process PC diskettes and run some PC software. What does that include? Dick From donm at cts.com Thu Nov 15 18:01:29 2001 From: donm at cts.com (Don Maslin) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:11:09 2005 Subject: OT: paging MAC expert(s) --- What's a Performa? In-Reply-To: <001201c16e2d$7b747d20$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> Message-ID: On Thu, 15 Nov 2001, Richard Erlacher wrote: > I had a mental lapse today and, as I was unloading the stuff in my car, noticed > that I had, among the rest of the stuff, a pretty complete Mac Performa 630CD. > This found its way into my car because it was fairly complete, i.e. included > keyboard/mouse, monitor, modem, color printer, cables, etc. including some > documentation including CD's, registration doc's, instructions, etc. I'm > curious what interesting hardware I should find in the box? Is the hard disk > worth salvaging? What sort of memory is likely to be found inside? Dick, visit www.lowendmac.com and you will likely find answers to all/most of your questions. It is a pretty comprehensive site. - don > Any suggestions as to how best to exploit this thing? I noticed among the > documentation that it apparently has the ability to process PC diskettes and run > some PC software. What does that include? > > Dick > > > From geoffr at zipcon.net Thu Nov 15 18:08:15 2001 From: geoffr at zipcon.net (Geoff Reed) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:11:09 2005 Subject: Xebec Sider for Apple II In-Reply-To: References: <10111151905.ZM12173@mindy.dunnington.u-net.com> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20011115160733.028a2010@mail.zipcon.net> At 11:27 AM 11/15/01 -0800, you wrote: >There were at least 2 versions of Sider drives/Cards... > >One was a straight ribbon cable... The other looked like a standard SCSI >cable but I don't remember if it was a real scsi interface or not... > >George Rachor Someone should try one of the old Tandy 8MB 8" HD chassis on one of those, they used a SASI interface also.. it might work :) From jpero at sympatico.ca Thu Nov 15 13:57:09 2001 From: jpero at sympatico.ca (jpero@sympatico.ca) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:11:09 2005 Subject: OT: paging MAC expert(s) --- What's a Performa? In-Reply-To: <001201c16e2d$7b747d20$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> Message-ID: <20011116005400.CZVL9080.tomts7-srv.bellnexxia.net@duron> > From: "Richard Erlacher" > To: > Subject: OT: paging MAC expert(s) --- What's a Performa? > Date: Thu, 15 Nov 2001 16:30:16 -0700 > Organization: Erlacher Associates > Reply-to: classiccmp@classiccmp.org > Any suggestions as to how best to exploit this thing? I noticed among the > documentation that it apparently has the ability to process PC diskettes and run > some PC software. What does that include? If this machine does have DOS compatiable it will say: Performa 630CD DOS compatiable otherwise... Undo two screws on rear panel for the logicboard and get hold of small handle and pull and wiggle firmly. Out comes this motherboard w/ memory, PRAM battery etc. If it has another daughterboard plugged into '040 socket, you got DOS compatiable board w/ 1 socket for ram, two sockets for mac cpu (LC040 33MHz) and other one is for 486dx2 66. On the logicboard, 2 slots for ram, all ram is non parity, FPM, 70ns or faster. If the small slot w/ small opening at rear panel is filled by a small card, might be a network card. The HD, CD and floppy comes out from front end. HD is IDE (!!), CD is 2x scsi apple rom, floppy is manual inject. Not bad little (even it's bit bulky) box other than that, it's just low end machine w/ limited expansion. I hope you paid very little for it. > > Dick Cheers, Wizard From vcf at vintage.org Thu Nov 15 18:49:33 2001 From: vcf at vintage.org (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:11:09 2005 Subject: Neat computer cluster available for hauling in East Sussex, UK Message-ID: If anyone is interested, go for it. Please reply directly to original sender. Reply-to: iain.barr@stbedesschool.org ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Wed, 14 Nov 2001 16:36:12 +0000 From: "Mr Iain Barr (Director of IT)" Subject: Computer Donation We have recently de-commissioned a network of: 1 x RM LM Server (OS2) - hard disk failure 12 x RM Nimbus diskless workstations (286/386 M-Series PCs) + 14" VGA monitors plus some BNC cabling and a repeater (or two) We would prefer to donate rather than bin! We are an independent school in East Sussex. Are you interested? Please reply asap xxxxx xx xx x i b x j |-- Mr Iain J Barr Director of IT St Bede's School ---------------------------- http://www.stbedesschool.org ---------------------------- STANDARD DISCLAIMER: This message is confidential. You should not copy it or disclose its contents to anyone. You may use and apply the information only for the intended purpose. Internet communications are not secure and therefore St Bede's School does not accept legal responsibility for the contents of this message. Any views or opinions presented are only those of the author and not those of St Bede's School. If this email has come to you in error please delete it and any attachments. -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org * Old computing resources for business and academia at www.VintageTech.com * From jhellige at earthlink.net Thu Nov 15 18:57:44 2001 From: jhellige at earthlink.net (Jeff Hellige) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:11:09 2005 Subject: OT: paging MAC expert(s) --- What's a Performa? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: >Dick, visit www.lowendmac.com and you will likely find answers to >all/most of your questions. It is a pretty comprehensive site. I agree...great site. I use it as a jumping-off point for various news items each day. The direct URL for info on the machine, including specs and upgrades, that he is looking for is: http://www.lowendmac.com/quadra/q630.shtml Jeff -- Home of the TRS-80 Model 2000 FAQ File http://www.cchaven.com http://www.geocities.com/siliconvalley/lakes/6757 From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Nov 15 18:23:50 2001 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:11:09 2005 Subject: Cable and connector source In-Reply-To: <10111151922.ZM12243@mindy.dunnington.u-net.com> from "Pete Turnbull" at Nov 15, 1 07:22:10 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 781 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20011116/88306894/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Nov 15 17:55:18 2001 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:11:09 2005 Subject: HP 3000 No More In-Reply-To: <000b01c16d80$a2d9aaa0$b97ba8c0@ne.mediaone.net> from "Chandra Bajpai" at Nov 14, 1 09:52:56 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1307 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20011115/5bc9d745/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Nov 15 17:49:22 2001 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:11:09 2005 Subject: Fw: Control Data Cyber 960 rescue interest? In-Reply-To: <200111150101.fAF11jJ30003@narnia.int.dittman.net> from "Eric Dittman" at Nov 14, 1 07:01:45 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 700 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20011115/022f55cf/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Nov 15 18:01:06 2001 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:11:09 2005 Subject: H7140 PDP 11/24 Power Supply Advice In-Reply-To: <20011115013100.O10499-100000@lepton.subatomix.com> from "Jeffrey S. Sharp" at Nov 15, 1 01:43:25 am Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 850 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20011116/2677277a/attachment.ksh From edick at idcomm.com Thu Nov 15 20:00:16 2001 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:11:09 2005 Subject: OT: paging MAC expert(s) --- What's a Performa? References: Message-ID: <002d01c16e42$81d680e0$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> Yes, this is a fairly comprehensive site, but, wouldn't you know it, the first thing I encountered, in looking for spec's, was that the item regarding the Performa630CD clearly claims it uses a 68030 at 33 MHz, while the Apple doc's and http://www.info.apple.com/info.apple.com/applespec/applespec.taf?RID=180 both seem to agree that it's an MC68LC040 (an'040 variant, (probably degraded ... it is an APPLE product, after all ...) at 66 MHz AND a '486DX2/66. I suppose the bus speed could be the rating base rather than some invisible clock doubler or whatever. It's a BIG site too, in terms of variety of content, so it will take a while to find anything/everything I need. Anyway, I didn't find much about this MAC itself, and being pretty ignorant of latter-day MAC hardware, I have admit I've no idea what these are good for. I've got a new target for donating this sort of computer, but since I'm unable to support them, and unwilling to learn to do that, in order for me to donate it to a .org with no knowledgeable computer persons on site there has to be considerable resident or on-line doc support. I've found lots of chaff, but little wheat, so far. I figure that the MAC, being so widely popular with teachers, has got to be pretty easy to learn. It has a half-gig SCSI drive in it and a VERY small amount of DRAM. I've not looked inside to check how much memory is actually there. This being a '95-'96 vintage product, and from Apple Computer, Inc, I imagine the modems are 2400 baud or so, so they're probably scrap. Surely there's SOMETHING of value in a computer inside these things. I'm trying to get away from these teensy drives, so it might not serve me to part the thing out. If its memory is limited to 8 MB, as the Apple spec suggests, the RAM isn't worth salvaging either. Maybe the only reasonable thing to do is to try to make it suitable for some sort of useful work, on a small scale, of course. Dick ----- Original Message ----- From: "Don Maslin" To: Cc: "Richard Erlacher" Sent: Thursday, November 15, 2001 5:01 PM Subject: Re: OT: paging MAC expert(s) --- What's a Performa? > > > On Thu, 15 Nov 2001, Richard Erlacher wrote: > > > I had a mental lapse today and, as I was unloading the stuff in my car, noticed > > that I had, among the rest of the stuff, a pretty complete Mac Performa 630CD. > > This found its way into my car because it was fairly complete, i.e. included > > keyboard/mouse, monitor, modem, color printer, cables, etc. including some > > documentation including CD's, registration doc's, instructions, etc. I'm > > curious what interesting hardware I should find in the box? Is the hard disk > > worth salvaging? What sort of memory is likely to be found inside? > > Dick, visit www.lowendmac.com and you will likely find answers to > all/most of your questions. It is a pretty comprehensive site. > > - don > > > Any suggestions as to how best to exploit this thing? I noticed among the > > documentation that it apparently has the ability to process PC diskettes and run > > some PC software. What does that include? > > > > Dick > > > > > > > > From geoffrob at stmarks.pp.catholic.edu.au Thu Nov 15 20:11:26 2001 From: geoffrob at stmarks.pp.catholic.edu.au (Geoff Roberts) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:11:09 2005 Subject: MV3100 Memory Message-ID: <012301c16e43$ffd26fd0$de2c67cb@helpdesk> An acquaintance (freeware developer of VMS web/proxy server package) is looking to source some memory for a Microvax 3100 that some organisation in Macedonia (not sure which Macedonia, but probably the FYR) wish to use for a Web server. (seriously!) Anyone have anything in that line they would be prepared to part with cheap? I've offered a complete (minus drives) MV3400 and/or a 6000 but the freight would be nasty even on the 3400, so they really just want some ram. Sources in Oz or Europe preferred, but if the price is right, wherever.... OTOH, if someone in Europe has a complete VMS/Vax system that might be suitable and can arrange it to get there, that would be good too. Cheers Geoff Roberts Computer Systems Manager Saint Mark's College Port Pirie, South Australia geoffrob@stmarks.pp.catholic.edu.au ICQ 1970476 From dittman at dittman.net Thu Nov 15 20:17:58 2001 From: dittman at dittman.net (Eric Dittman) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:11:09 2005 Subject: QBUS FDDI (DEFQA) In-Reply-To: <15348.14202.315295.414160@phaduka.neurotica.com> from "Dave McGuire" at Nov 15, 2001 04:45:30 PM Message-ID: <200111160217.fAG2Hwc00601@narnia.int.dittman.net> > > > I'm in the process of converting most of my systems to FDDI, but > > > a QBUS FDDI adapter is holding me up. Does anyone have a DEFQA > > > they want to sell or trade? > > > > I didn't know they ever made one. Is it _real_ FDDI or FDDI over UTP > > (CDDI, sometimes called)? I recently passed up a small box of EISA CDDI > > cards. Too much other schtuff in the car and it was a pay-per-trip to > > scavenge stuff. Got a dual P-150, though. Make a nice Linux box. > > Yup, they made 'em. Scarce as hen's teeth. I finally got one > (purely by chance, actually!) after a *lot* of searching. You wouldn't happen to want to sell yours, would you? -- Eric Dittman dittman@dittman.net Check out the DEC Enthusiasts Club at http://www.dittman.net/ From spectre at stockholm.ptloma.edu Thu Nov 15 20:30:15 2001 From: spectre at stockholm.ptloma.edu (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:11:09 2005 Subject: Cable and connector source In-Reply-To: from Tony Duell at "Nov 16, 1 00:23:50 am" Message-ID: <200111160230.SAA08380@stockholm.ptloma.edu> > If you want to know why I did this, think about : > > 1) Who do you associate with apples (the fruit, not the computer) Either the Beatles (Apple Records) or Rock Hudson (fruit). ;-) -- ----------------------------- personal page: http://www.armory.com/~spectre/ -- Cameron Kaiser, Point Loma Nazarene University * ckaiser@stockholm.ptloma.edu -- "The Internet is, once again, your friend" (I wrote this *before* PacBell!) From jss at subatomix.com Thu Nov 15 20:51:13 2001 From: jss at subatomix.com (Jeffrey S. Sharp) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:11:09 2005 Subject: H7140 PDP 11/24 Power Supply Advice In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20011115201153.Q11982-100000@lepton.subatomix.com> On Fri, 16 Nov 2001, Tony Duell wrote: > > > I strongly recomend you learn electronics no matter what sort of > > > machine you work on. > > > > Well, that does it. I'm going to stay an extra few years at college > > and get a second degree: Electrical & Computer Engineering. Now, look > > what you've done, you bastards! :-) > > In my opinion, haivng a degree (or any other qualification) in a > subject has 0 correlation with how good you actually are at that > subject.... Of course not. I was just thinking that having the structured presentation of the material and the access to equipment/projects that I would not otherwise have quick access to would be good for learning. I want to target myself career-wise towards embedded software engineering. I was recently told that in the embedded industry, you can't be solely a software engineer; you have to know how to hack the hardware too. This move will make me more marketable that way. -- Jeffrey S. Sharp jss@subatomix.com From ip500 at home.com Thu Nov 15 20:54:56 2001 From: ip500 at home.com (Craig Smith) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:11:09 2005 Subject: Datapro Reports on MiniComputers ??? Message-ID: <3BF48000.6D8AE0E4@home.com> Any one familiar with a wonderful series of loose leaf binders from DataPro ... "Reports on Minicomputers" circa 1978-80 or so? I just saw a set and would love to find a set for sale! More info than I've ever dreamed of ... all in one place .. and covering just about everything you ever wanted to know about many mini systems. ie: they had a really full writeup on InterData systems w/info I had never been able to find [maybe 30 pages of stuff .. all stamped "Not to be Reproduced"] anyone know if they are still in bix and would object to reproduction? Thanks, Craig Smith From cmurillo at emtelsa.multi.net.co Thu Nov 15 20:55:05 2001 From: cmurillo at emtelsa.multi.net.co (Carlos Murillo) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:11:09 2005 Subject: H7140 PDP 11/24 Power Supply Advice In-Reply-To: References: <20011115013100.O10499-100000@lepton.subatomix.com> Message-ID: <3.0.2.32.20011115215505.010053e4@obregon.multi.net.co> At 12:01 AM 11/16/01 +0000, you wrote: >In my opinion, haivng a degree (or any other qualification) in a subject >has 0 correlation with how good you actually are at that subject.... > >In my case, I have a piece of paper saying that I am a particle >physicist. In practice, I don't know the first thing about (say) QCD. > >I have no pieces of paper saying I am an electrical engineer, electronic >engineer, computer scientist, programmer, or anything related to >computers or electronics. But in practice I can generally understand most >areas of electronics or computing well enough to get the job done. > >-tony That's one data point. The estimation of the variance of the population is infinite then. C'mon, Tony, I am sure that the correlation is positive. Otherwise, you'd be discrediting the intelligence of every human. But I'll have to agree with you in that it is not close enough to 1.0 . carlos. -------------------------------------------------------------- Carlos E. Murillo-Sanchez carlos_murillo@nospammers.ieee.org From lemay at cs.umn.edu Thu Nov 15 20:57:04 2001 From: lemay at cs.umn.edu (Lawrence LeMay) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:11:10 2005 Subject: Cable and connector source In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <200111160257.UAA28830@caesar.cs.umn.edu> > > If you want to know why I did this, think about : > > 1) Who do you associate with apples (the fruit, not the computer) Johnny Appleseed??? > > 2) When was he born Why, on September 26, 1774. > > 3) Some of us celebrate his birthday rather than another event (possibly > birthday-related) on the same date :-). > > -tony From jhellige at earthlink.net Thu Nov 15 21:08:49 2001 From: jhellige at earthlink.net (Jeff Hellige) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:11:10 2005 Subject: OT: paging MAC expert(s) --- What's a Performa? In-Reply-To: <002d01c16e42$81d680e0$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> References: <002d01c16e42$81d680e0$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> Message-ID: >Yes, this is a fairly comprehensive site, but, wouldn't you know it, the first >thing I encountered, in looking for spec's, was that the item regarding the >Performa630CD clearly claims it uses a 68030 at 33 MHz, while the Apple doc's >and http://www.info.apple.com/info.apple.com/applespec/applespec.taf?RID=180 >both seem to agree that it's an MC68LC040 (an'040 variant, (probably degraded >... it is an APPLE product, after all ...) at 66 MHz AND a '486DX2/66. I >suppose the bus speed could be the rating base rather than some >invisible clock >doubler or whatever. Actually Lowendmac shows it as being the last 68040-based Mac, clocked at 33mhz. Jeff -- Home of the TRS-80 Model 2000 FAQ File http://www.cchaven.com http://www.geocities.com/siliconvalley/lakes/6757 From edick at idcomm.com Thu Nov 15 21:28:21 2001 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:11:10 2005 Subject: Apple ][-series sound board?? References: <200111160257.UAA28830@caesar.cs.umn.edu> Message-ID: <001d01c16e4e$be0e57c0$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> It seems that I've got a board with a couple of components that were recently the topic of a lengthy thread. This is labelled "Mockingboard" from Sweet Microsystems, and dated 1983. Unfortunately, it appears to be missing its resident EPROM, so I doubt it's much more than a pair of 6522's and a pair of ay3-8913's, plus a couple of LM386 audio amp's. Does anyone know anything specific about this board? What's its claim to fame? Has anybody got either the EPROM contents, manuals, software, or a desire for this board? Dick From vze2wsvr at verizon.net Thu Nov 15 21:35:08 2001 From: vze2wsvr at verizon.net (Eric Chomko) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:11:10 2005 Subject: Datapro Reports on MiniComputers ??? References: <3BF48000.6D8AE0E4@home.com> Message-ID: <3BF4896C.D589790C@mail.verizon.net> Craig Smith wrote: > Any one familiar with a wonderful series of loose leaf binders from > DataPro ... "Reports on Minicomputers" circa 1978-80 or so? Yes, but the came out earlier that 1978 as I recall. Nice blue binder that had every machine. Very well done. > > I just saw a set and would love to find a set for sale! More info than > I've ever dreamed of ... all in one place .. and covering just about > everything you ever wanted to know about many mini systems. ie: they had > a really full writeup on InterData systems w/info I had never been able > to find [maybe 30 pages of stuff .. all stamped "Not to be Reproduced"] > anyone know if they are still in bix and would object to reproduction? > Don't know about copyright material of that age, but I do remember they were a favorite item of mine to look at in the Computer Science Library while I was a student at the University of Maryland. Eric > Thanks, Craig Smith From cube1 at home.com Thu Nov 15 21:53:51 2001 From: cube1 at home.com (Jay Jaeger) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:11:10 2005 Subject: H7140 PDP 11/24 Power Supply Advice In-Reply-To: References: <4.3.2.7.2.20011112200334.03c960e0@cirithi> Message-ID: <4.3.2.7.2.20011115213904.03c60cf8@cirithi> Gee, how about another post on this thread that actually relates to the thread... 8^) Funny how that happens on mailing lists. 8^) After a little looking and digging, I discovered that the capacitor that failed is a Sprague series 672D -- indeed designed for switching use. Newark had 12 of them left, so I ordered 2 of the "real McCoy" just for authenticity, though I am sure I could have easily found something adequate locally for a lot less money. In the Newark catalog illustrations and descriptions, their is NO MENTION of that third ("extra") axial lead from the aluminum can (that goes off to the working return -- the 300V Return). I am guessing that either DEC welded that extra lead on the aluminum can (or had Sprague do it as a special order) as a safety against shorting to the heatsink of the transistor next to it. [Since the board is currently buttoned-up inside the power supply, I cannot easily look without some effort -- I cannot remember for sure if that heatsink was running to chassis ground or the +300V return, but I am guessing chassis ground]. If it shorted, it would short to the 300V return, rather than to a floating can -- which, if the transisitor heatsink is strapped to chassis ground, would put +150V or so between the can and the inside of the capacitor -- presumably with "spectacular" results. Then they put all of that in heat-shrink outside the original plastic wrap on the capacitor. How would one go about duplicating that feat? One thought that had occurred to me was to just try (say, with heat shrink) to get a third lead in contact with the outer can surface -- by taking off the factory plastic wrap, taping on a wire, and then heat shinking that in a new cylinder. It would not be a real sound connection, but it presumably would be better than nothing. Jay At 07:09 PM 11/13/2001 +0000, you wrote: > > > > At 12:12 AM 11/13/2001 +0000, you wrote: > > > > > > Now, off to find a replacement (it is a 3 lead jobber, the normal > to axial > > > > leads, plus an extra radial (-) lead from the top of the can -- > perhaps > > > for > > > > > >I don't think there's anything particularly critical about it. I'd use > > >one of those SMPSU-rated capacitors (sold for TV repairs, etc). I'd > > >probably fit a 105C one as well, to save having to do the job very often. > > > > Let's see... > > > > SMPSU, as in Switching Mode Power Supply Unit? > > 105C as in temperature rating? > >Eight both times... > >The SMPSU capacitors tend to handle high frequencies better (lower >internal inductance?). Many of the old-style electrolytics were designed >for use in mains-frequency PSUs where they only had to work at 100Hz or >so (well, 120Hz across the Pond). > >The 105C capacitors seem to last longer at high temperaturs. And the >insides of PSUs tend to get a little warm. > > > >The value doesn't seem to be that critical. 100uF should be fine if > > >that's all you can get. > > > > Hee hee. That is exactly what the temporarily replacement is. (But it > > certainly isn't rated for use in switching supplies, and certainly not > > marked as 105C). > >I would get a 'better' one (certainly an SMPSU one -- they're not hard to >get or expensive now. Most TVs are stuffed with them (or should be :-)) >and thus they are sold for repairing said TVs. <> --- Jay R. Jaeger The Computer Collection cube1@home.com visit http://members.home.net/thecomputercollection From john_boffemmyer_iv at boff-net.dhs.org Thu Nov 15 22:28:34 2001 From: john_boffemmyer_iv at boff-net.dhs.org (John Boffemmyer IV) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:11:10 2005 Subject: In need of external SCSI enclosure... In-Reply-To: <3BF34E24.69F8B1AA@internet1.net> References: <5.1.0.14.2.20011114203559.01d58cc0@sokieserv.dhs.org> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20011115232752.01d65d70@sokieserv.dhs.org> Chad, email me: john_boffemmyer_iv@boff-net.dhs.org let's talk price =) -John At 12:09 AM 11/15/01, you wrote: >Where are you located? I have a rahter heavy MTI SCSI case that will >handle 4 full height drives. I no longer use it, and would let it go >fairly cheaply. > >Chad Fernandez >Michigan, USA > >John Boffemmyer IV wrote: > > > > Anyone out there have a HD50, 4 bay external SCSI enclosure they are > > willing to part with (trade/money/etc.)? I've noticed that I've accumulated > > a small pile of old IDC50 1gig SCSI drives and I have decided to actually > > use them instead of allow them to keep my computer room door propped open. > > I've verified that they work, etc, but my little case cannot fit more than > > 2 drives (yes, a sucky mid-tower) and logically, an external would suit my > > needs. Finding them on ebay is like looking to pay porshe prices for a > > yugo. I last saw one (actually a 2 bay HD50) go for about $130 US, USED > > without power supply! Is there anyone out there willing to help spare my > > sanity for my SCSI obscession? Maybe it will give me room to play with my > > 2X SCSI CD-ROM drive and 250Meg Tape Drive... > > -John Boff. > > > > ---------------------------------------- > > Founder, Lead Writer, Tech Analyst > > and Web Designer Boff-Net Technologies > > http://boff-net.dhs.org/index.html > > --------------------------------------- ---------------------------------------- Founder, Lead Writer, Tech Analyst and Web Designer Boff-Net Technologies http://boff-net.dhs.org/index.html --------------------------------------- From allain at panix.com Thu Nov 15 23:00:57 2001 From: allain at panix.com (John Allain) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:11:10 2005 Subject: HP 3000 No More References: Message-ID: <003b01c16e5b$ae27ae80$21fe54a6@ibm23xhr06> > No, I am not happy about this. Is the 200LX etc series now dead? Any evidence of a distancing of HP from Agilent? I mean, what's left? John A. From george at racsys.rt.rain.com Thu Nov 15 23:08:59 2001 From: george at racsys.rt.rain.com (George Leo Rachor Jr.) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:11:10 2005 Subject: Apple ][-series sound board?? In-Reply-To: <001d01c16e4e$be0e57c0$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> Message-ID: As I remember the board shipped with at least one empty socket. That socket contained some text > speach code which was an additional option. At the time it was the only way to play SkyFox... George ========================================================= George L. Rachor Jr. george@rachors.com Hillsboro, Oregon http://rachors.com United States of America Amateur Radio : KD7DCX On Thu, 15 Nov 2001, Richard Erlacher wrote: > It seems that I've got a board with a couple of components that were recently > the topic of a lengthy thread. This is labelled "Mockingboard" from Sweet > Microsystems, and dated 1983. Unfortunately, it appears to be missing its > resident EPROM, so I doubt it's much more than a pair of 6522's and a pair of > ay3-8913's, plus a couple of LM386 audio amp's. > > Does anyone know anything specific about this board? What's its claim to fame? > > Has anybody got either the EPROM contents, manuals, software, or a desire for > this board? > > Dick > > > From mhstein at usa.net Thu Nov 15 23:17:55 2001 From: mhstein at usa.net (M H Stein) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:11:10 2005 Subject: Cromemco + DIAB Message-ID: <01C16E34.257EB460@mse-d03> -----------Original Message---------- Date: 15 Nov 2001 8:57:4 +0100 From: "Iggy Drougge" Subject: Cromemco + DIAB There's been some talk about Cromemco recently, and in one single Usenet post, I read something about a Cromemco UNIX box actually being a DIAB design. Presumably, this would be a 680[23]0 design. Do you have any ideas? ------------------------------------- Don't know if DIAB had anything to do with the design, but FWIW, Cromemco's Unix systems were S-100 based, first using a 10 MHz 68010 (XPU card), and later a 16.7 MHz 68020 with a 12.5 or 25 MHz 68881 (XXU card); don't know if anything came after that, maybe Cromemco in Europe might have more info. mike From spectre at stockholm.ptloma.edu Thu Nov 15 23:39:09 2001 From: spectre at stockholm.ptloma.edu (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:11:10 2005 Subject: Apple ][-series sound board?? In-Reply-To: from "George Leo Rachor Jr." at "Nov 15, 1 09:08:59 pm" Message-ID: <200111160539.VAA08758@stockholm.ptloma.edu> > As I remember the board shipped with at least one empty socket. That > socket contained some text > speach code which was an additional option. > At the time it was the only way to play SkyFox... You could play it on a C64 ;-) -- ----------------------------- personal page: http://www.armory.com/~spectre/ -- Cameron Kaiser, Point Loma Nazarene University * ckaiser@stockholm.ptloma.edu -- Please dispose of this message in the usual manner. -- Mission: Impossible - From george at racsys.rt.rain.com Thu Nov 15 23:55:54 2001 From: george at racsys.rt.rain.com (George Leo Rachor Jr.) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:11:10 2005 Subject: Apple ][-series sound board?? In-Reply-To: <200111160539.VAA08758@stockholm.ptloma.edu> Message-ID: Ahhh yes... But I remember buying Skyfox just to hear what the mockingboard could do. Anybody remember if any other software written for the Apple][ took advantage of one of the first sound cards? George Rachor ========================================================= George L. Rachor Jr. george@rachors.com Hillsboro, Oregon http://rachors.com United States of America Amateur Radio : KD7DCX On Thu, 15 Nov 2001, Cameron Kaiser wrote: > > As I remember the board shipped with at least one empty socket. That > > socket contained some text > speach code which was an additional option. > > At the time it was the only way to play SkyFox... > > You could play it on a C64 ;-) > > -- > ----------------------------- personal page: http://www.armory.com/~spectre/ -- > Cameron Kaiser, Point Loma Nazarene University * ckaiser@stockholm.ptloma.edu > -- Please dispose of this message in the usual manner. -- Mission: Impossible - > From optimus at canit.se Thu Nov 15 23:27:11 2001 From: optimus at canit.se (Iggy Drougge) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:11:10 2005 Subject: In need of external SCSI enclosure... In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20011114203559.01d58cc0@sokieserv.dhs.org> Message-ID: <1614.720T550T3873991optimus@canit.se> John Boffemmyer IV skrev: >Anyone out there have a HD50, 4 bay external SCSI enclosure they are >willing to part with (trade/money/etc.)? I've noticed that I've accumulated >a small pile of old IDC50 1gig SCSI drives and I have decided to actually >use them instead of allow them to keep my computer room door propped open. >I've verified that they work, etc, but my little case cannot fit more than >2 drives (yes, a sucky mid-tower) and logically, an external would suit my >needs. Finding them on ebay is like looking to pay porshe prices for a >yugo. I last saw one (actually a 2 bay HD50) go for about $130 US, USED >without power supply! Is there anyone out there willing to help spare my >sanity for my SCSI obscession? Maybe it will give me room to play with my >2X SCSI CD-ROM drive and 250Meg Tape Drive... When we needed to move the BBS, our hardware person just took out the guts of an old Compaq 386 and added a length of SCSI cabling with a lot of connectors inside. Who said old PCs can't be useful? We've also got a dedicated SCSI tower with six external slots connected to our Amiga 3000. A lot of people think the tower is the computer, not the lunch box below the monitor. Now, IBM's old SCSI tower, there's a real Rolls Royce. It's really a PS/2 model 95 case, and when fitted with IBM drives, it looks really nice with the sloped front plates. It's a shame IBM insisted on using their own kind of front plates and SCSI connectors. -- En ligne avec Thor 2.6a. "The day Microsoft makes something that doesn't suck is probably the day they start making vacuum cleaners" - Ernst Jan Plugge From optimus at canit.se Thu Nov 15 23:34:10 2001 From: optimus at canit.se (Iggy Drougge) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:11:10 2005 Subject: OT: paging MAC expert(s) --- What's a Performa? In-Reply-To: <001201c16e2d$7b747d20$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> Message-ID: <1443.720T500T3944281optimus@canit.se> Richard Erlacher skrev: >I had a mental lapse today and, as I was unloading the stuff in my car, >noticed that I had, among the rest of the stuff, a pretty complete Mac >Performa 630CD. This found its way into my car because it was fairly >complete, i.e. included keyboard/mouse, monitor, modem, color printer, >cables, etc. including some documentation including CD's, registration doc's, >instructions, etc. I'm curious what interesting hardware I should find in >the box? Is the hard disk worth salvaging? What sort of memory is likely to >be found inside? The Performa series was Apple's old brand for the home computer market. Most Performas were also available as either LCs, Quadras or PowerMacs. The 630 contains a 33 MHz 68LC040 processor, an IDE (!) hard drive, a CommSlot for modems or ethernet cards, an LC PDS slot and possibly cards for video and TV. It uses 72-pin SIMMs. The motherboard slides out from the back after you've removed some plastic panels. It plugs into a backplane in the front. >Any suggestions as to how best to exploit this thing? I noticed among the >documentation that it apparently has the ability to process PC diskettes and >run some PC software. What does that include? Yes, there was a version with a PC bridgeboard, the 630PC. A 486 on a card, exploiting the Mac resources. -- En ligne avec Thor 2.6a. Was ist ein Erwachsener? Ein Kind, das vom Alter aufgepumpt ist. --- Simone de Beauvoir From optimus at canit.se Thu Nov 15 23:39:07 2001 From: optimus at canit.se (Iggy Drougge) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:11:10 2005 Subject: HP 3000 No More In-Reply-To: <200111150439.UAA04848@stockholm.ptloma.edu> Message-ID: <800.720T350T3993607optimus@canit.se> Cameron Kaiser skrev: >> You're forgetting that PA-RISC is also in the same position. It's >> called "legacy", isn't it? >Feh. We have two PA-RISC boxen in the server room. I'm sure the IT >director would be very upset if that happened, considering they're barely >three years old at the most. HP have been cooperating with Intel for years. PA-RISC is a dead end, unfortunately. So is Alpha. HP and Compaq are suddenly friends. Now, if HP3000 (and presumably MPE) is dead, I wouldn't be surprised to see a similar statement about VMS very soon. BTW, isn't it strange that the new ComHPaq aren't putting VMS forth as a migration alternative? -- En ligne avec Thor 2.6a. G? med i SUGA, Swedish Usergroup of Amiga! WWW: http://swedish.usergroup.amiga.tm/ BBS: 08-6582572, telnet://sua.ath.cx:42512 From edick at idcomm.com Fri Nov 16 02:12:13 2001 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:11:10 2005 Subject: OT: paging MAC expert(s) --- What's a Performa? References: <1443.720T500T3944281optimus@canit.se> Message-ID: <001001c16e76$66178be0$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> The documentation that came with this machine implies it's already equipped with the DX2/66. Is there some sort of utility in the system that would make it easy to see what the thing perceives itself as having? Dick ----- Original Message ----- From: "Iggy Drougge" To: "Richard Erlacher" Sent: Thursday, November 15, 2001 10:34 PM Subject: Re: OT: paging MAC expert(s) --- What's a Performa? > Richard Erlacher skrev: > > >I had a mental lapse today and, as I was unloading the stuff in my car, > >noticed that I had, among the rest of the stuff, a pretty complete Mac > >Performa 630CD. This found its way into my car because it was fairly > >complete, i.e. included keyboard/mouse, monitor, modem, color printer, > >cables, etc. including some documentation including CD's, registration doc's, > >instructions, etc. I'm curious what interesting hardware I should find in > >the box? Is the hard disk worth salvaging? What sort of memory is likely to > >be found inside? > > The Performa series was Apple's old brand for the home computer market. Most > Performas were also available as either LCs, Quadras or PowerMacs. > The 630 contains a 33 MHz 68LC040 processor, an IDE (!) hard drive, a CommSlot > for modems or ethernet cards, an LC PDS slot and possibly cards for video and > TV. > It uses 72-pin SIMMs. The motherboard slides out from the back after you've > removed some plastic panels. It plugs into a backplane in the front. > > >Any suggestions as to how best to exploit this thing? I noticed among the > >documentation that it apparently has the ability to process PC diskettes and > >run some PC software. What does that include? > > Yes, there was a version with a PC bridgeboard, the 630PC. A 486 on a card, > exploiting the Mac resources. > > -- > En ligne avec Thor 2.6a. > > Was ist ein Erwachsener? Ein Kind, das vom Alter aufgepumpt ist. > --- Simone de Beauvoir > > > From vze2mnvr at verizon.net Fri Nov 16 02:42:59 2001 From: vze2mnvr at verizon.net (Ian Koller) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:11:10 2005 Subject: Fw: Control Data Cyber 960 rescue interest? References: Message-ID: <3BF4D193.5F51466E@verizon.net> Sellam Ismail wrote: > Nevertheless, this does go on. Don't act so naive ;) Sellam, I was actually telling you the truth. There were some irregularities going on in the defense department surplus program that people did jail time over. A scrapper I've bought items from in the past told me about it. Since it wasn't of current importance to me at the time, as I'm not in that line of work, I promptly forgot the details, but definately remembered the "gist" of it. I could try to get in contact with that fellow and get those names again, and maybe a google search might show up the court case abstracts. I know those things do occasionally go on, but I'm just suggesting it not be mentioned in a public newsgroup which gets archived ( permanently? ) to the google search engine. Sellam Ismail wrote: > > On Wed, 14 Nov 2001, Ian Koller wrote: > > > > I'm sure you could get the machine released into your hands > for > > some minor kickback > > > > This could probably land you in jail. Even suggesting it may be > > construed as conspiracy to commit the act. > > Nevertheless, this does go on. Don't act so naive ;) > > Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ > International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org From vze2mnvr at verizon.net Fri Nov 16 03:00:46 2001 From: vze2mnvr at verizon.net (Ian Koller) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:11:10 2005 Subject: H7140 PDP 11/24 Power Supply Advice References: Message-ID: <3BF4D5BE.7D67D16E@verizon.net> Tony Duell wrote: > In my case, I have a piece of paper saying that I am a particle > physicist. Tony, Now you're my kind of guy. I enjoy reading physics books purely for education, information, and entertainment. Tony Duell wrote: > > > > I strongly recomend you learn electronics no matter what sort of > > > machine you work on. > > > > Well, that does it. I'm going to stay an extra few years at college and > > get a second degree: Electrical & Computer Engineering. Now, look what > > you've done, you bastards! :-) > > In my opinion, haivng a degree (or any other qualification) in a subject > has 0 correlation with how good you actually are at that subject.... > > In my case, I have a piece of paper saying that I am a particle > physicist. In practice, I don't know the first thing about (say) QCD. > > I have no pieces of paper saying I am an electrical engineer, electronic > engineer, computer scientist, programmer, or anything related to > computers or electronics. But in practice I can generally understand most > areas of electronics or computing well enough to get the job done. > > -tony From jpl15 at panix.com Fri Nov 16 03:29:30 2001 From: jpl15 at panix.com (John Lawson) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:11:10 2005 Subject: Surplus Legal Issues, was Re: Fw: Control Data Cyber 960 In-Reply-To: <3BF4D193.5F51466E@verizon.net> Message-ID: Re: Jail time for surplus: I spent a good number of years in the Aerospace surplus business in California, and I have personally been involved in more than one 'difficult' situation, and I know of five people who have done jail time for various scams and transgressions. Fortunately, it was the policy of the company I worked for to never get involved in that stuff, because it's like asking the Mafia for a loan... it never ends after that. The manager of a large California firm is probably still in jail... it was well known that it you wanted a particular bid, you just 'negotiated' with him, and damn! You Won it! He got tripped up by making triple payments on his house, buying a big boat and a new truck and trailer for it... a clerk in his credit union wondered out loud just how he was able to afford all this on his regular income.... he 'fessed up when they came to audit him, and was taken away in cuffs. I was working for a small place many years ago that had recieved, by Government contractor error, a 'classified' piece of radio gear stuck in a truckload of other RF junk we bought. The Feds came storming in one afternoon with the swat team (I am *not* making this up!!) and I spent about twenty minutes eating the dirty carpet with the muzzle of a rifle hovering behind my ear...same as the rest of the staff of the place... while they had the owner take them (at gunpoint) out in the 'yard', to the item in "question", which was then covered and taken away. After that, we were allowed up, but had to stay there in the office while the Feds went over and over and over the paperwork, and alternately grilling each of us about the 'item'. Then, they just left, without even a word. It was then 8:00 at night, and a crowd had gathered outside the place. Fun story now, but then, well... Such things go on all the time. Cheers John From als at thangorodrim.de Fri Nov 16 04:36:09 2001 From: als at thangorodrim.de (Alexander Schreiber) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:11:10 2005 Subject: HP 3000 No More In-Reply-To: <003b01c16e5b$ae27ae80$21fe54a6@ibm23xhr06> References: <003b01c16e5b$ae27ae80$21fe54a6@ibm23xhr06> Message-ID: <20011116113609.A30941@mordor.angband.thangorodrim.de> On Fri, Nov 16, 2001 at 12:00:57AM -0500, John Allain wrote: > > No, I am not happy about this. > > Is the 200LX etc series now dead? The HP200LX is very much alive and kicking. There exists the hplx mailing list which shows quite an active userbase for the little palmtop. And by the way, I'm really like my HP200LX ;-) Regards, Alex. -- q: If you were young again, would you start writing TeX again or would you use Microsoft Word, or another word processor? a: I hope to die before I *have* to use Microsoft Word. -- Harald Koenig asking Donald E. Knuth From mikeford at socal.rr.com Fri Nov 16 05:05:37 2001 From: mikeford at socal.rr.com (Mike Ford) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:11:10 2005 Subject: OT: paging MAC expert(s) --- What's a Performa? In-Reply-To: <1443.720T500T3944281optimus@canit.se> References: <001201c16e2d$7b747d20$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> Message-ID: >The Performa series was Apple's old brand for the home computer market. Most >Performas were also available as either LCs, Quadras or PowerMacs. >The 630 contains a 33 MHz 68LC040 processor, an IDE (!) hard drive, a CommSlot >for modems or ethernet cards, an LC PDS slot and possibly cards for video and I have about a dozen I have collected up cheap. My plan is to replace the LC processor with a full 040 (with fpu), drop in a big cheap IDE drive and use them as network storage and other servers. They are about the least likely old mac for trying to salvage something out of. From ezhila at igcar.ernet.in Fri Nov 16 05:25:43 2001 From: ezhila at igcar.ernet.in (ezhilarasi) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:11:10 2005 Subject: Problem with the Video display Message-ID: <000001c16e91$6f2cba00$7901100a@mdl> Dear sir, I have a DEC PDP11/53 computer with Graftek Single Board Display Adapter Board. I dont get any display out from the card. The self test on the display board flashes LED 5 times indicating that possibly the DMA interface is problem. How do I go ahead in troubleshooting the board.Pl. send me enough information Thanking You Mrs.T.EZHILARASI Sceintific Officer/Engineer Indira Gandhi Centre for Atomic Research Department of Atomic Energy Kalpakkam India phone : 91 4114 80306 fax: 91 4114 80081 From ezhila at igcar.ernet.in Fri Nov 16 05:31:47 2001 From: ezhila at igcar.ernet.in (ezhilarasi) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:11:10 2005 Subject: Problem with the Video display Message-ID: <000001c16e92$47eed6c0$7901100a@mdl> Dear sir, I have a DEC PDP11/53 computer with Graftek Single Board Display Adapter Board. I dont get any display out from the card. The self test on the display board flashes LED 5 times indicating that possibly the DMA interface is problem. How do I go ahead in troubleshooting the board.Pl. send me enough information Thanking You Mrs.T.EZHILARASI Sceintific Officer/Engineer Indira Gandhi Centre for Atomic Research Department of Atomic Energy Kalpakkam India phone : 91 4114 80306 fax: 91 4114 80081 From foo at siconic.com Fri Nov 16 05:28:59 2001 From: foo at siconic.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:11:10 2005 Subject: Datapro Reports on MiniComputers ??? In-Reply-To: <3BF48000.6D8AE0E4@home.com> Message-ID: On Thu, 15 Nov 2001, Craig Smith wrote: > Any one familiar with a wonderful series of loose leaf binders from > DataPro ... "Reports on Minicomputers" circa 1978-80 or so? > I just saw a set and would love to find a set for sale! More > info than I've ever dreamed of ... all in one place .. and covering > just about everything you ever wanted to know about many mini systems. > ie: they had a really full writeup on InterData systems w/info I had > never been able to find [maybe 30 pages of stuff .. all stamped "Not > to be Reproduced"] anyone know if they are still in bix and would > object to reproduction? Where did you see the set you refer to? I'd really like to see if there's any info on the Four Phase System/70 and System/90 in there. Anyway of checking? Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org From foo at siconic.com Fri Nov 16 05:30:47 2001 From: foo at siconic.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:11:10 2005 Subject: Apple ][-series sound board?? In-Reply-To: <001d01c16e4e$be0e57c0$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> Message-ID: On Thu, 15 Nov 2001, Richard Erlacher wrote: > It seems that I've got a board with a couple of components that were > recently the topic of a lengthy thread. This is labelled > "Mockingboard" from Sweet Microsystems, and dated 1983. > Unfortunately, it appears to be missing its resident EPROM, so I doubt > it's much more than a pair of 6522's and a pair of ay3-8913's, plus a > couple of LM386 audio amp's. > > Does anyone know anything specific about this board? What's its claim > to fame? > > Has anybody got either the EPROM contents, manuals, software, or a > desire for this board? It's a multiple voice sound card for the Apple ][. Some software supported it, most significantly the Ultima series (Ultima II or III and onwards). I think it sported 3 voices, though there may have been more. I have at least one of these. I believe I have the software...somewhere. Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org From foo at siconic.com Fri Nov 16 05:35:01 2001 From: foo at siconic.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:11:10 2005 Subject: Apple ][-series sound board?? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Thu, 15 Nov 2001, George Leo Rachor Jr. wrote: > But I remember buying Skyfox just to hear what the mockingboard could > do. Anybody remember if any other software written for the Apple][ > took advantage of one of the first sound cards? I can't remember anything besides Ultima. A lot of games probably have the option but since I never had a Mockingboard back then I never really paid attention. While the Mockingboard would surely qualify as an example of an early sound card, I wouldn't class it as "one of the first". There were sound boards for S-100 systems circa 1976-1977. One card in my collection that is a good example is the Sound Effects 100. It has I believe three of them General Instruments sound chips on it. I have at least one other S-100 sound card. I believe Solid State Music started out as a company that made S-100 sound cards. And then wasn't there also a sound card for the PDP-11 circa the early 1970s? Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org From foo at siconic.com Fri Nov 16 05:38:44 2001 From: foo at siconic.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:11:10 2005 Subject: Surplus Legal Issues, was Re: Fw: Control Data Cyber 960 In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Fri, 16 Nov 2001, John Lawson wrote: > I was working for a small place many years ago that had recieved, by > Government contractor error, a 'classified' piece of radio gear stuck > in a truckload of other RF junk we bought. The Feds came storming in > one afternoon with the swat team (I am *not* making this up!!) and I > spent about twenty minutes eating the dirty carpet with the muzzle of > a rifle hovering behind my ear...same as the rest of the staff of the > place... while they had the owner take them (at gunpoint) out in the > 'yard', to the item in "question", which was then covered and taken > away. After that, we were allowed up, but had to stay there in the > office while the Feds went over and over and over the paperwork, and > alternately grilling each of us about the 'item'. Then, they just > left, without even a word. It was then 8:00 at night, and a crowd had > gathered outside the place. Did you ever find out what the hell it was? Some alien technology? An early VCR with pornos of the President and the First Lady still in it? Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org From dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com Fri Nov 16 06:37:41 2001 From: dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com (Douglas Quebbeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:11:10 2005 Subject: Cable and connector source Message-ID: <7A9BACCEF0171D4FB77019F5104CDD3722590F@jeffserver.tegjeff.com> > If you want to know why I did this, think about : > > 1) Who do you associate with apples (the fruit, not the computer) Johhn Appleseed. Wait, he's an American, you most like wouldn't be referring to him. Must be Adam. No wait... Ok, Leibnitz! No wait, it's that guy that copied Leibniz, what's his name, they even named a chair after him.... Newton? > 2) When was he born Before me... > 3) Some of us celebrate his birthday rather than another event (possibly > birthday-related) on the same date :-). Must be Guy Fawkes' Day... no, that's in July, aint it? Columbus Day? All kidding aside, your galvanic battery is a great experiment; I think we did potato batteries in either Cub Scouts or school. I wish we'd had extremely low- power devices to hook up to it; we just used a voltmeter to demonstrate the output. -dq From menadeau at mediaone.net Fri Nov 16 06:39:22 2001 From: menadeau at mediaone.net (Michael Nadeau) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:11:10 2005 Subject: Datapro Reports on MiniComputers ??? References: <3BF48000.6D8AE0E4@home.com> Message-ID: <008301c16e9b$c46abbc0$0b01a8c0@ValuedCustomer> I have the Datapro Report on Microcomputers from 1987--same concept and also well done. Datapro was a McGraw-Hill company (it's part of Gartner now), and I vaguely recall having electronic access to Datapro material when I was at BYTE through a corporate network. It was never on BIX. My suggestion is that you contact Gartner to see if they have archived any of the Datapro stuff. --Mike Michael Nadeau Editorial Services 603-893-2379 ----- Original Message ----- From: "Craig Smith" To: "CC list" Sent: Thursday, November 15, 2001 9:54 PM Subject: Datapro Reports on MiniComputers ??? > Any one familiar with a wonderful series of loose leaf binders from > DataPro ... "Reports on Minicomputers" circa 1978-80 or so? > I just saw a set and would love to find a set for sale! More info than > I've ever dreamed of ... all in one place .. and covering just about > everything you ever wanted to know about many mini systems. ie: they had > a really full writeup on InterData systems w/info I had never been able > to find [maybe 30 pages of stuff .. all stamped "Not to be Reproduced"] > anyone know if they are still in bix and would object to reproduction? > Thanks, Craig Smith > From jbdigriz at dragonsweb.org Fri Nov 16 07:33:39 2001 From: jbdigriz at dragonsweb.org (James B. DiGriz) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:11:10 2005 Subject: OT: Fear and helpfulness on classiccmp References: <3BF4D193.5F51466E@verizon.net> Message-ID: <3BF515B3.1000608@dragonsweb.org> Ian Koller wrote: > > Sellam Ismail wrote: > >>Nevertheless, this does go on. Don't act so naive ;) >> > > Sellam, > > I was actually telling you the truth. There were some > irregularities going on in the defense department surplus > program that people did jail time over. A scrapper I've > bought items from in the past told me about it. Since it > wasn't of current importance to me at the time, as I'm > not in that line of work, I promptly forgot the details, > but definately remembered the "gist" of it. I could try to > get in contact with that fellow and get those names again, > and maybe a google search might show up the court case > abstracts. I know those things do occasionally go on, but > I'm just suggesting it not be mentioned in a public newsgroup > which gets archived ( permanently? ) to the google search engine. > > Subscribe to the NASA OIG list. Makes for very interesting reading sometimes. Sometimes the best appearance to affect is indifference or even blatant disregard for these niceties. Sometimes, even, it's more honorable to actually be a blatant outlaw or an honest thief. There'd be a lot less old computers out there, for instance, if it weren't for freaking trash that suddenly turns into valuable stolen property the minute it's removed without ass-covering authorization in triplicate from a dumpster. Or stuff that was sold or traded and then creatively reported after having been written of off taxes as "depreciated" or "obsolete" and supposedly destroyed. But all this gets into the screwed up tax policy in this country and other off-topic political matters. I didn't take Sellam seriously, though. His comment was clearly tongue-in-cheek. His later comment was dead on, though, even if great pains are taken to provide respectable justification, even laws, for the really big-time stuff. Parting thought from pop music. "That which you fear the most will meet you half way". More than enough of this kind of thing going around these days, if you ask me. I never got any sympathy whenever I've had to deal with it personally in the past, and I'd much rather discuss old computers. Best, jbdigriz From rhblakeman at kih.net Fri Nov 16 07:40:36 2001 From: rhblakeman at kih.net (Russ Blakeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:11:10 2005 Subject: Surplus Legal Issues, was Re: Fw: Control Data Cyber 960 In-Reply-To: Message-ID: That's also how we could finger someone in our career field that might be a Soviet buyoff for classified info - all of a sudden this GI that's broke and loaded with bills is buying a new car (cash) and other things. It generally works for city inspectors, policeman, politicians (to a degree) and other civil servants and otherwise small business people. Drug dealers generally get nailed this way too. When are people going to learn that you don't make a big change in spending and lifestyle without becoming noticed. They couldn't nail Alfonse Capone in the 30's with anything other than than tax evasion but that's what put him in prison. -> -----Original Message----- -> The manager of a large California firm is probably still in jail... it -> was well known that it you wanted a particular bid, you just 'negotiated' -> with him, and damn! You Won it! He got tripped up by making triple -> payments on his house, buying a big boat and a new truck and trailer for -> it... a clerk in his credit union wondered out loud just how he was able -> to afford all this on his regular income.... he 'fessed up when they -> came to audit him, and was taken away in cuffs. From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Fri Nov 16 07:42:21 2001 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (Allison) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:11:10 2005 Subject: Apple ][-series sound board?? Message-ID: <001c01c16ea4$87aae3a0$6b7b7b7b@ajp> >S-100 sound card. I believe Solid State Music started out as a company >that made S-100 sound cards. Indeed. It was not the first but certainly one of the better. >And then wasn't there also a sound card for the PDP-11 circa the early >1970s? Gigilo, I have one. Also based on two AY-mumble sound chips with stereo outputs. Allison From jfoust at threedee.com Fri Nov 16 07:49:07 2001 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:11:10 2005 Subject: Cable and connector source In-Reply-To: References: <10111151922.ZM12243@mindy.dunnington.u-net.com> Message-ID: <5.0.0.25.0.20011116074501.02f6cea0@pc> At 12:23 AM 11/16/2001 +0000, Tony wrote: >If you want to know why I did this, think about : >1) Who do you associate with apples (the fruit, not the computer) >2) When was he born >3) Some of us celebrate his birthday rather than another event (possibly >birthday-related) on the same date :-). My first guess was Alan Mathison Turing, born 23 June 1912, who died due to cyanide contamination on an apple he was eating. Newton's Day is December 25, the date of his birth in 1642. What I'd really like is one of the clones of "his" apple tree. I hear they've been distributed far and wide, and are growing all over the world. - John From spectre at stockholm.ptloma.edu Fri Nov 16 08:12:25 2001 From: spectre at stockholm.ptloma.edu (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:11:10 2005 Subject: Apple ][-series sound board?? In-Reply-To: from "George Leo Rachor Jr." at "Nov 15, 1 09:55:54 pm" Message-ID: <200111161412.GAA08704@stockholm.ptloma.edu> > But I remember buying Skyfox just to hear what the mockingboard could > do. Anybody remember if any other software written for the Apple][ took > advantage of one of the first sound cards? I think Music Construction Set and some of the Ultimas did. -- ----------------------------- personal page: http://www.armory.com/~spectre/ -- Cameron Kaiser, Point Loma Nazarene University * ckaiser@stockholm.ptloma.edu -- A penny saved is stupid. --------------------------------------------------- From jbdigriz at dragonsweb.org Fri Nov 16 08:37:42 2001 From: jbdigriz at dragonsweb.org (James B. DiGriz) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:11:10 2005 Subject: Surplus Legal Issues, was Re: Fw: Control Data Cyber 960 References: Message-ID: <3BF524B6.3040808@dragonsweb.org> Russ Blakeman wrote: > That's also how we could finger someone in our career field that might be a > Soviet buyoff for classified info - all of a sudden this GI that's broke and > loaded with bills is buying a new car (cash) and other things. It generally > works for city inspectors, policeman, politicians (to a degree) and other > civil servants and otherwise small business people. Drug dealers generally > get nailed this way too. When are people going to learn that you don't make > a big change in spending and lifestyle without becoming noticed. > > They couldn't nail Alfonse Capone in the 30's with anything other than than > tax evasion but that's what put him in prison. > > > -> -----Original Message----- > -> The manager of a large California firm is probably still in jail... it > -> was well known that it you wanted a particular bid, you just 'negotiated' > -> with him, and damn! You Won it! He got tripped up by making triple > -> payments on his house, buying a big boat and a new truck and trailer for > -> it... a clerk in his credit union wondered out loud just how he was able > -> to afford all this on his regular income.... he 'fessed up when they > -> came to audit him, and was taken away in cuffs. > > > > There are all kinds of legitimate reasons somebody might change, or seem to change, their spending habits and lifestyle, and they owe no one any explanations. I'd say that's entirely their business. Capone pissed enough people off that he wouldn't have been a problem much longer anyway. jbdigriz From jbdigriz at dragonsweb.org Fri Nov 16 08:50:01 2001 From: jbdigriz at dragonsweb.org (James B. DiGriz) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:11:10 2005 Subject: Apple ][-series sound board?? References: <200111161412.GAA08704@stockholm.ptloma.edu> Message-ID: <3BF52799.2030001@dragonsweb.org> Cameron Kaiser wrote: >>But I remember buying Skyfox just to hear what the mockingboard could >>do. Anybody remember if any other software written for the Apple][ took >>advantage of one of the first sound cards? >> > > I think Music Construction Set and some of the Ultimas did. > > From jbdigriz at dragonsweb.org Fri Nov 16 08:55:16 2001 From: jbdigriz at dragonsweb.org (James B. DiGriz) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:11:10 2005 Subject: Apple ][-series sound board?? References: <200111161412.GAA08704@stockholm.ptloma.edu> Message-ID: <3BF528D4.3060708@dragonsweb.org> Cameron Kaiser wrote: >>But I remember buying Skyfox just to hear what the mockingboard could >>do. Anybody remember if any other software written for the Apple][ took >>advantage of one of the first sound cards? >> > > I think Music Construction Set and some of the Ultimas did. > > I acquire a IIe not too long ago and I'm interested in learning this too. Don't have a sound card for it yet, though. jbdigriz From edick at idcomm.com Fri Nov 16 09:15:36 2001 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:11:10 2005 Subject: Apple ][-series sound board?? References: <200111161412.GAA08704@stockholm.ptloma.edu> <3BF52799.2030001@dragonsweb.org> Message-ID: <002401c16eb1$8b9d67a0$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> What's an Ultima? Dick ----- Original Message ----- From: "James B. DiGriz" To: Sent: Friday, November 16, 2001 7:50 AM Subject: Re: Apple ][-series sound board?? > Cameron Kaiser wrote: > > >>But I remember buying Skyfox just to hear what the mockingboard could > >>do. Anybody remember if any other software written for the Apple][ took > >>advantage of one of the first sound cards? > >> > > > > I think Music Construction Set and some of the Ultimas did. > > > > > > > > From edick at idcomm.com Fri Nov 16 09:31:11 2001 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:11:10 2005 Subject: single-board Z80 add-on for Apple][ types References: <200111161412.GAA08704@stockholm.ptloma.edu> <3BF528D4.3060708@dragonsweb.org> Message-ID: <002c01c16eb3$b87d3820$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> Anothr thing I found among the Apple stuff in this last haul is a Z80 card with the required extra 16K DRAM on board that's apparently made by Franklin Computer. It's labelled ACE 80. That's the first one I've seen with the extra DRAM block on board. It also has an EPROM and a Z80 CTC, the latter of which I don't remember seeing on other Z80 boards for the Apple][ series. Has anyone tried this thing out in a normal Apple or is it limited to use in a Franklin clone? Dick From bpope at wordstock.com Fri Nov 16 10:03:44 2001 From: bpope at wordstock.com (Bryan Pope) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:11:10 2005 Subject: Apple ][-series sound board?? In-Reply-To: <002401c16eb1$8b9d67a0$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> from "Richard Erlacher" at Nov 16, 01 08:15:36 am Message-ID: <200111161603.LAA18653@wordstock.com> mmmmm.... Fantasy Role-playing games made by Richard Garriott, a.k.a. Lord British. who then founded the used-to-be-cool-company name Origin Systems. Which has been assimilated by another used-to-be-cool-company name Electronic Arts. Richard Gariott has gone onto form a new company... but I can't remember its name... The games had tons of places to explore, lots of monsters and dungeons. And you had to write *pages and pages* of notes to keep track of the people you talked to and what they said. Oh and there was the dungeon mapping... many many many hours has been given unto the Ultima. > > What's an Ultima? > > Dick > > > > > Cameron Kaiser wrote: > > > I think Music Construction Set and some of the Ultimas did. > > > z From csmith at amdocs.com Fri Nov 16 10:10:50 2001 From: csmith at amdocs.com (Christopher Smith) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:11:10 2005 Subject: Hello, and please help with RSX-11M/PDP parts Message-ID: <3B55D7F383B0D31197D9009027541CBF1170DE64@cmiexch1.cmi.itds.com> This will be a lot to cram into one mail, but here we go... First off, Hi everybody. I'm newly subscribed to this list. Next, I was wondering whether anyone here can help my with my newly acquired (IE rescued from the crusher) PDP-11/73. Straight to the point, I can get it to boot up RSX-11M, which is installed on the fixed drive, and do *stuff*. (please correct me if I'm wrong on any of this, by the way) I've figured out that the previous owner has disabled logins from the console port, perhaps to defeat the "forgotten password" procedure that I can't get to work ;) I can hit ^C and get an "MCR>" prompt, but nothing else. There is another port which has user [10,10] logged in automatically when the machine finishes booting, so I've been able to experiment with it some. I've managed to figure out that INS and REM are MCR commands to insert and remove images from the system. RUN seems to automatically insert, execute, and perhaps afterwards remove an image. HEL will log you in (but not without a password!), and BYE will log you out. What I'm missing here are basically any file-management commands! :) Does anyone have a short reference? I could also use suggestions on a recovery procedure to get access to the 0,0 account. Here are my thoughts: Put the drive in a MicroVAX-II (write-protected!), in place of the MicroVAX's system disk. MOPboot the VAX from another, larger VAX, and either the UAF or the startup files to change the 0,0 password, or change the boot procedure so that the "forgotten password" process will work. (Anyone know if this is possible, or whether there's an easier way?) My understanding of this "forgotten password" process is that you hit ^C early in the boot procedure to get the "MCR>" prompt, and run the command REM ...AT. to de-install the command-file processor so that the system can't fully bring itself up. This somehow should cause the system to give you privileged CLI access. This system is a MicroPDP-11/73, with an "MFM" type fixed drive of unknown size, two 4-port serial boards, and an RX50 (I think that's the strange 2-in-1 floppy drive?). It tells me on bootup that it's got 512k of RAM "mapped." I've been assuming that this is the full amount of built-in RAM. Please correct me if I'm wrong there. I'll get the CPU revision/OS version/etc if needed, but I don't have the system handy right now. Once I get the machine up and running, I'll need to make a good backup of the drive, in some kind of bootable form, since it's the only copy of RSX I've got. I hear there's a stand-alone BRU. Is that the way to go? It's likely I'll backup to floppy, and image the floppies to CD. I may also remove a tk50 and controller from a MicroVAX II, so that I can backup to tape, and dump the tape into a file using one of my VAXen. Given all of the above, any suggestions? If I've kept your attention this far, let me also ask another, more open-ended question. I'd like to get an older, unibus based PDP-11 eventually. Ideally, here is what I'd like: Core memory Programming switches on the front-panel Reel-to-reel tape Small package (meaning half-size to 2/3 size a normal rack. I've seen pictures of things like this. Some kind of disk storage Multi-port serial Any advice on collecting parts, or finding old parts/systems? I've already been given, and taken the ebay advice. No luck there yet. Regards, Chris Christopher Smith, Perl Developer Amdocs - Champaign, IL /usr/bin/perl -e ' print((~"\x95\xc4\xe3"^"Just Another Perl Hacker.")."\x08!\n"); ' From jss at subatomix.com Fri Nov 16 10:14:17 2001 From: jss at subatomix.com (Jeffrey S. Sharp) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:11:10 2005 Subject: OT: Fear and helpfulness on classiccmp In-Reply-To: <3BF515B3.1000608@dragonsweb.org> Message-ID: <20011116100925.Y13355-100000@lepton.subatomix.com> On Fri, 16 Nov 2001, James B. DiGriz wrote: > Sometimes, even, it's more honorable to actually be a blatant outlaw > or an honest thief. There is no honor in being pounded in the ass by someone called Bubba. I recommend that we do only legal things regarding this CDC 960. -- Jeffrey S. Sharp jss@subatomix.com From fmc at reanimators.org Fri Nov 16 09:58:40 2001 From: fmc at reanimators.org (Frank McConnell) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:11:10 2005 Subject: single-board Z80 add-on for Apple][ types In-Reply-To: "Richard Erlacher"'s message of "Fri, 16 Nov 2001 08:31:11 -0700" References: <200111161412.GAA08704@stockholm.ptloma.edu> <3BF528D4.3060708@dragonsweb.org> <002c01c16eb3$b87d3820$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> Message-ID: <200111161558.fAGFweQ69559@daemonweed.reanimators.org> "Richard Erlacher" wrote: > Anothr thing I found among the Apple stuff in this last haul is a Z80 card with > the required extra 16K DRAM on board that's apparently made by Franklin > Computer. It's labelled ACE 80. That's the first one I've seen with the extra > DRAM block on board. IIRC it's a badge-engineered PCPI Applicard. Should have 8 64KB DRAMs on the board. And yes, those are the Z80's RAM. -Frank McConnell From erd_6502 at yahoo.com Fri Nov 16 10:36:21 2001 From: erd_6502 at yahoo.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:11:10 2005 Subject: QBUS FDDI (DEFQA) In-Reply-To: <200111152216.fAFMGTj32450@narnia.int.dittman.net> Message-ID: <20011116163621.8370.qmail@web20105.mail.yahoo.com> --- Eric Dittman wrote: > > > I'm in the process of converting most of my systems to FDDI... > > According to what I've read, the card is FDDI and not CDDI (which is how > I refer to FDDI over copper, since there's not any F in CDDI). Is that like the joke with the line "there's no F in Chocolate"? ("there's no "f'ing" chocolate...") -ethan __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Find the one for you at Yahoo! Personals http://personals.yahoo.com From csmith at amdocs.com Fri Nov 16 10:54:09 2001 From: csmith at amdocs.com (Christopher Smith) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:11:10 2005 Subject: TRS-80 Model IV Message-ID: <3B55D7F383B0D31197D9009027541CBF1170DE69@cmiexch1.cmi.itds.com> Hi again. :) I just thought of another question. I have in my possession four TRS-80 model IVs. Two portables, (one working, one not), and two desktops (one working, one not). The desktop will run in Model III emulation mode. The portable will turn on and ask for a disk. Anybody know where I can find some operating system(s) for them? I'm also thinking about taking the ram from the non-working machines, and using it to max out the memory in the working ones. Good idea, bad idea? Regards, Chris Christopher Smith, Perl Developer Amdocs - Champaign, IL /usr/bin/perl -e ' print((~"\x95\xc4\xe3"^"Just Another Perl Hacker.")."\x08!\n"); ' From jbdigriz at dragonsweb.org Fri Nov 16 11:03:45 2001 From: jbdigriz at dragonsweb.org (James B. DiGriz) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:11:10 2005 Subject: OT: Fear and helpfulness on classiccmp References: <20011116100925.Y13355-100000@lepton.subatomix.com> Message-ID: <3BF546F1.7060106@dragonsweb.org> Jeffrey S. Sharp wrote: > On Fri, 16 Nov 2001, James B. DiGriz wrote: > > >>Sometimes, even, it's more honorable to actually be a blatant outlaw >>or an honest thief. >> > > There is no honor in being pounded in the ass by someone called Bubba. I > recommend that we do only legal things regarding this CDC 960. > > -- > Jeffrey S. Sharp > jss@subatomix.com > > > Nobody is proposing anything else. If you want to say that maybe putting in a bid to remove the CDC properly with qualified personnel, as opposed to a slash-and-burn job, at an s&b price, and then bidding on the property out of the proceeds, is somehow criminal, kindly tell it to the goddamned GA. legislature, who passed the fucked-up bullshit law that makes it necessary. Let's leave Bubba out of this. He's a figment of somebody's imagination. A bogeyman conjured up by the scared-straight hellfire-and-damnation crowd who profess to believe that people won't be civilized unless they're beat or frightened into it. The ones who trot out the reformed ex-cons to terrorize the sunday schoolers with. In actual practice, real people who try to be Bubbas get seriously dead real quick. How bout we terminate this line of discussion? It's a nice day out, it's Friday, and I've been behind this keyboard too long. Ya'll have a nice weekend, jbdigriz From jhfine at idirect.com Fri Nov 16 11:25:44 2001 From: jhfine at idirect.com (Jerome Fine) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:11:10 2005 Subject: Hello, and please help with RSX-11M/PDP parts References: <3B55D7F383B0D31197D9009027541CBF1170DE64@cmiexch1.cmi.itds.com> Message-ID: <3BF54C18.B522CB0F@idirect.com> >Christopher Smith wrote: > [Snip] > Here are my thoughts: > Put the drive in a MicroVAX-II (write-protected!), in place of the > MicroVAX's system disk. MOPboot the VAX from another, larger VAX, and > either the UAF or the startup files to change > the 0,0 password, or change the boot procedure so that the "forgotten > password" process will work. > (Anyone know if this is possible, or whether there's an easier way?) Jerome Fine replies: Without the name of the actual hard drive (RD53,RD54?, etc.?) it is difficult to help. PLUS, I don't have any idea of what RSX-11 consists of internally. However, what you suggest can easily be done with the current hardware if you just use RT-11 and boot from a floppy on the RX50 drive!!!!!!!!! If that is OK, I can tell you exactly what to do if you tell me exactly what bits you want to change - which block on which hard drive and to what. The latter will require someone who knows RSX-11. I have no clue at all about what you need to change. But it might be as simple as a start-up command file and changing the text - if you know where to find it or what the name is. Suggestion! If you do this, start by placing the hard drives in WRITE PROTECT mode if that is possible! Can anyone else take this further? Sincerely yours, Jerome Fine From dittman at dittman.net Fri Nov 16 11:41:04 2001 From: dittman at dittman.net (Eric Dittman) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:11:10 2005 Subject: QBUS FDDI (DEFQA) In-Reply-To: <20011116163621.8370.qmail@web20105.mail.yahoo.com> from "Ethan Dicks" at Nov 16, 2001 08:36:21 AM Message-ID: <200111161741.fAGHf4501983@narnia.int.dittman.net> > --- Eric Dittman wrote: > > > > I'm in the process of converting most of my systems to FDDI... > > > > According to what I've read, the card is FDDI and not CDDI (which is how > > I refer to FDDI over copper, since there's not any F in CDDI). > > Is that like the joke with the line "there's no F in Chocolate"? ("there's > no "f'ing" chocolate...") Yes. I didn't know if anyone would get it, since it works best when when said out loud. -- Eric Dittman dittman@dittman.net Check out the DEC Enthusiasts Club at http://www.dittman.net/ From oliv555 at arrl.net Fri Nov 16 11:59:27 2001 From: oliv555 at arrl.net (no) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:11:10 2005 Subject: RC25s for parts+misc Message-ID: <3BF553FF.DADD1543@arrl.net> About to trash 2 doa rc-25s unless someone local (Houston area) wants them for parts. Also /ot/ for pickup only, about a 10 - 12 year collection of QST, Lowdown, NRC Journal plus a couple cartons of older PC related docs and misc radio/ham mags. All free, pickup only ... contact me off-list .. -nick o. From mythtech at Mac.com Fri Nov 16 12:00:53 2001 From: mythtech at Mac.com (Chris) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:11:10 2005 Subject: OT: paging MAC expert(s) --- What's a Performa? Message-ID: >The documentation that came with this machine implies it's already >equipped with >the DX2/66. Is there some sort of utility in the system that would make >it easy >to see what the thing perceives itself as having? If you boot it, you will probably find a copy of Apple System Profiler in the Apple menu. That will tell you what you have installed. The stock 630 series is actually a fairly useful machine. It used 72pin SIMMS (FPM, but EDO work just fine), there is only one RAM slot, so it will max out the machine at 36mb (32mb chip + 4 on board). The VRAM is non upgradable. As a stock machine, they are good workstations (pending you use non PPC only software, since it is a 33mhz LC040.. the LC040 is a 68040 without the FPU built into the chip). I have a 630 running right now as a mail server, keeps up with everything I give it no problems (runs Mac OS 8.1, with Stalker Internet Mail Server... hosts a few domains and a few thousand emails a day, with a few hundred accounts... never even hiccups). The HD is IDE, which makes it cheap and easy to upgrade. Other things of interest. It may have an ethernet card, but if you said it came with a modem, I doubt it has ethernet (was the modem internal? You could get an internal 14.4 geoport fax/modem in the Comm Slot... the GeoPort modem is similar to those WinModems that use the processor to handle all the modem functions, and the modem acts pretty much as an AD/DA converter. HOWEVER, you may have one of the modems that was made by global village... THOSE modems are real modems, and VERY VERY good, with supurb fax software). If the modem is external, then you might have an ethernet card in the Comm slot (look at the back for an RJ45 connector). If you have a Global Village external modem (common performa modem), the bronze (probably the one you have) is 2400 fax. It is a VERY good fax modem, with excellent software... not so good of a regular modem (some extension conflicts with the modem control software). There is also a Gold version that was 28.8 fax... much better regular modem (newer software, cured most of the extension conflicts) Also, your docs indicate that it has the DOS card installed. However, the 630 didn't ship with a dos card... that was the 640 (upgraded version of the 630, the 640 came stock with a DOS card... IIRC it was available for the 630 as a 3rd party add in by Reply, so it may have been added). The quickest way to tell if a dos card is installed is look at the back of the machine. You will see an expansion slot. If there is a fairly densely pinned DB connector in the expansion slot, you have a DOS card. There should be a dongle cable for it that will connect between the DOS card, and the Mac's video out. The cable will then provide a RGB connector, and a Midi/Joystick connector. If you don't have that cable, the DOS card is useless... good luck finding a replacement cable. Finally, the 630 supports Video In/Out and a TV Tuner. Again, look at the back of the machine, if you see RCA connectors for video, left and right audio (Yellow, Red and White, RCAs), you have the video In/Out card. If you ALSO see a RF Coax screw on connector, you have the TV Tuner... if you have these... contact me, I would be interested in possibly buying/trading them with you (I have a need for the TV Tuner card, but will take them as a pair). If you have the TV Tuner card, you should also have a remote control. It will either be a skinny black remote, or a little credit card sized remote. Failure to have the remote will not prevent the card from working, it just means you have to do all the controls on the computer. (The Video Player software supports all the remote functions directly, the remote was just a nicity). What else... If the DOS card is not present, then the 630 has an LC PDS slot, there are a few cards available for it (network, video, accelerators, odds and ends). I think that is pretty much it. The 630 series is a very good 040 machine, and can still be used for a number of things. -chris From edick at idcomm.com Fri Nov 16 12:20:03 2001 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:11:11 2005 Subject: TRS-80 Model IV References: <3B55D7F383B0D31197D9009027541CBF1170DE69@cmiexch1.cmi.itds.com> Message-ID: <001301c16ecb$4fa95b40$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> Maxing out the RAM is probably not a bad idea, but I'd suggest you attempt to figure out why the non-working ones don't work, and, if that's the only problem you can't solve, I'll happily send you the necessary DRAMs for the cost of postage. These are not complicated machines, so, once you've found the software and once you've located the defective components, they're probably pretty easy to fix, aside from the somewhat touchy business of desoldering parts from the rather low-quality PCB's. Dick ----- Original Message ----- From: "Christopher Smith" To: "Classiccmp (E-mail)" Sent: Friday, November 16, 2001 9:54 AM Subject: TRS-80 Model IV > Hi again. :) > > I just thought of another question. I have in my possession four TRS-80 > model IVs. Two portables, (one working, one not), and two desktops (one > working, one not). > > The desktop will run in Model III emulation mode. The portable will turn on > and ask for a disk. > > Anybody know where I can find some operating system(s) for them? > > I'm also thinking about taking the ram from the non-working machines, and > using it to max out the memory in the working ones. Good idea, bad idea? > > Regards, > > Chris > > Christopher Smith, Perl Developer > Amdocs - Champaign, IL > > /usr/bin/perl -e ' > print((~"\x95\xc4\xe3"^"Just Another Perl Hacker.")."\x08!\n"); > ' > > > From edick at idcomm.com Fri Nov 16 12:21:12 2001 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:11:11 2005 Subject: OT: Fear and helpfulness on classiccmp References: <20011116100925.Y13355-100000@lepton.subatomix.com> <3BF546F1.7060106@dragonsweb.org> Message-ID: <001901c16ecb$78d92e00$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> OOOH! I've heard Bubba is quite the tango instructor! Dick ----- Original Message ----- From: "James B. DiGriz" To: Sent: Friday, November 16, 2001 10:03 AM Subject: Re: OT: Fear and helpfulness on classiccmp > Jeffrey S. Sharp wrote: > > > On Fri, 16 Nov 2001, James B. DiGriz wrote: > > > > > >>Sometimes, even, it's more honorable to actually be a blatant outlaw > >>or an honest thief. > >> > > > > There is no honor in being pounded in the ass by someone called Bubba. I > > recommend that we do only legal things regarding this CDC 960. > > > > -- > > Jeffrey S. Sharp > > jss@subatomix.com > > > > > > > > Nobody is proposing anything else. If you want to say that maybe putting > in a bid to remove the CDC properly with qualified personnel, as > opposed to a slash-and-burn job, at an s&b price, and then bidding on > the property out of the proceeds, is somehow criminal, kindly tell it to > the goddamned GA. legislature, who passed the fucked-up bullshit law > that makes it necessary. > > Let's leave Bubba out of this. He's a figment of somebody's imagination. > A bogeyman conjured up by the scared-straight hellfire-and-damnation > crowd who profess to believe that people won't be civilized unless > they're beat or frightened into it. The ones who trot out the reformed > ex-cons to terrorize the sunday schoolers with. In actual practice, real > people who try to be Bubbas get seriously dead real quick. > > How bout we terminate this line of discussion? It's a nice day out, it's > Friday, and I've been behind this keyboard too long. > > Ya'll have a nice weekend, > jbdigriz > > From jrice at texoma.net Fri Nov 16 12:28:35 2001 From: jrice at texoma.net (James L. Rice) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:11:11 2005 Subject: OT: paging MAC expert(s) --- What's a Performa? References: Message-ID: <3BF55AD3.5040800@texoma.net> Actually my Performa 631CD has a DOS card from a Performa 640 and it doesn't need the three headed cable that the DOS card in my Powermac 6100 does. The 631's DOS card uses the Mac video output and you use a command enter keysequence to switch between full screen DOS to Full screen Mac. The back panel on the DOS card only has a D-15 joystick connector that connects to the tiny Sound Blaster Vibra 16 card mounted on the DOS card. I've never finished setting up the 6100's DOS card to know how the video works on it. BTW, does anyone have a 68040-33 chip for sale for a reasonable price? I guess I could salvage one from a spare NeXT turbo, but haven't been able to bring myself to do so yet. James Chris wrote: >>The documentation that came with this machine implies it's already >>equipped with >>the DX2/66. Is there some sort of utility in the system that would make >>it easy >>to see what the thing perceives itself as having? >> > > If you boot it, you will probably find a copy of Apple System Profiler in > the Apple menu. That will tell you what you have installed. > > The stock 630 series is actually a fairly useful machine. It used 72pin > SIMMS (FPM, but EDO work just fine), there is only one RAM slot, so it > will max out the machine at 36mb (32mb chip + 4 on board). The VRAM is > non upgradable. > > As a stock machine, they are good workstations (pending you use non PPC > only software, since it is a 33mhz LC040.. the LC040 is a 68040 without > the FPU built into the chip). > > I have a 630 running right now as a mail server, keeps up with everything > I give it no problems (runs Mac OS 8.1, with Stalker Internet Mail > Server... hosts a few domains and a few thousand emails a day, with a few > hundred accounts... never even hiccups). > > The HD is IDE, which makes it cheap and easy to upgrade. > > Other things of interest. It may have an ethernet card, but if you said > it came with a modem, I doubt it has ethernet (was the modem internal? > You could get an internal 14.4 geoport fax/modem in the Comm Slot... the > GeoPort modem is similar to those WinModems that use the processor to > handle all the modem functions, and the modem acts pretty much as an > AD/DA converter. HOWEVER, you may have one of the modems that was made by > global village... THOSE modems are real modems, and VERY VERY good, with > supurb fax software). If the modem is external, then you might have an > ethernet card in the Comm slot (look at the back for an RJ45 connector). > If you have a Global Village external modem (common performa modem), the > bronze (probably the one you have) is 2400 fax. It is a VERY good fax > modem, with excellent software... not so good of a regular modem (some > extension conflicts with the modem control software). There is also a > Gold version that was 28.8 fax... much better regular modem (newer > software, cured most of the extension conflicts) > > Also, your docs indicate that it has the DOS card installed. However, the > 630 didn't ship with a dos card... that was the 640 (upgraded version of > the 630, the 640 came stock with a DOS card... IIRC it was available for > the 630 as a 3rd party add in by Reply, so it may have been added). The > quickest way to tell if a dos card is installed is look at the back of > the machine. You will see an expansion slot. If there is a fairly densely > pinned DB connector in the expansion slot, you have a DOS card. There > should be a dongle cable for it that will connect between the DOS card, > and the Mac's video out. The cable will then provide a RGB connector, and > a Midi/Joystick connector. If you don't have that cable, the DOS card is > useless... good luck finding a replacement cable. > > Finally, the 630 supports Video In/Out and a TV Tuner. Again, look at the > back of the machine, if you see RCA connectors for video, left and right > audio (Yellow, Red and White, RCAs), you have the video In/Out card. If > you ALSO see a RF Coax screw on connector, you have the TV Tuner... if > you have these... contact me, I would be interested in possibly > buying/trading them with you (I have a need for the TV Tuner card, but > will take them as a pair). If you have the TV Tuner card, you should also > have a remote control. It will either be a skinny black remote, or a > little credit card sized remote. Failure to have the remote will not > prevent the card from working, it just means you have to do all the > controls on the computer. (The Video Player software supports all the > remote functions directly, the remote was just a nicity). > > What else... If the DOS card is not present, then the 630 has an LC PDS > slot, there are a few cards available for it (network, video, > accelerators, odds and ends). I think that is pretty much it. The 630 > series is a very good 040 machine, and can still be used for a number of > things. > > -chris > > > > > . > > From csmith at amdocs.com Fri Nov 16 12:36:42 2001 From: csmith at amdocs.com (Christopher Smith) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:11:11 2005 Subject: Hello, and please help with RSX-11M/PDP parts Message-ID: <3B55D7F383B0D31197D9009027541CBF1170DE72@cmiexch1.cmi.itds.com> > -----Original Message----- > From: Jerome Fine [mailto:jhfine@idirect.com] > Without the name of the actual hard drive (RD53,RD54?, etc.?) it is > difficult to help. PLUS, I don't have any idea of what RSX-11 > consists of internally. I *think* it's an RD53. I have never seen one before, but that's what I believe it to be. It's not an RD54... smaller than that. > However, what you suggest can easily be done with the current hardware > if you just use RT-11 and boot from a floppy on the RX50 > drive!!!!!!!!! That would be my first thought, except that I have nothing that will boot any PDP except for that disk. :) Of course, if anyone can supply media for RSX-11, RT-11, RSTS/E or something else, that would be an option. It is my understanding that RSX (except possibly RSX-11S) uses FILES-11/ODS1, to which I have recently acquired the specification. > If that is OK, I can tell you exactly what to do if you tell > me exactly > what bits you want to change - which block on which hard > drive and to what. > The latter will require someone who knows RSX-11. I have no clue at > all about what you need to change. But it might be as simple > as a start-up > command file and changing the text - if you know where to find it or > what the name is. That is my thought. Either a startup command file, or a UAF file. > Suggestion! If you do this, start by placing the hard drives in WRITE > PROTECT mode if that is possible! It is, and I've made a habit of switching the write-protect button every time I try something strange. Don't want to loose my only copy of the system software. Regards, Chris Christopher Smith, Perl Developer Amdocs - Champaign, IL /usr/bin/perl -e ' print((~"\x95\xc4\xe3"^"Just Another Perl Hacker.")."\x08!\n"); ' From mcguire at neurotica.com Fri Nov 16 12:51:43 2001 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:11:11 2005 Subject: QBUS FDDI (DEFQA) In-Reply-To: Re: QBUS FDDI (DEFQA) (Eric Dittman) References: <15348.14202.315295.414160@phaduka.neurotica.com> <200111160217.fAG2Hwc00601@narnia.int.dittman.net> Message-ID: <15349.24639.494290.936558@phaduka.neurotica.com> On November 15, Eric Dittman wrote: > > Yup, they made 'em. Scarce as hen's teeth. I finally got one > > (purely by chance, actually!) after a *lot* of searching. > > You wouldn't happen to want to sell yours, would you? Nope, sorry man. -Dave -- Dave McGuire St. Petersburg, FL From emu at ecubics.com Fri Nov 16 12:57:31 2001 From: emu at ecubics.com (emanuel stiebler) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:11:11 2005 Subject: TRS-80 Model IV References: <3B55D7F383B0D31197D9009027541CBF1170DE69@cmiexch1.cmi.itds.com> Message-ID: <3BF5619B.CFAB8108@ecubics.com> And because we're on the subject, I'm still looking for this: "trs-80 model IV technical reference manual" some people sent me links where I could find it, but this manual was never there. Some of them are just 404, and sometimes there is the wrong manual there. So, PLEASE anybody knows where I can find a copy of it ? cheers, emanuel From csmith at amdocs.com Fri Nov 16 13:06:15 2001 From: csmith at amdocs.com (Christopher Smith) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:11:11 2005 Subject: TRS-80 Model IV Message-ID: <3B55D7F383B0D31197D9009027541CBF1170DE74@cmiexch1.cmi.itds.com> > -----Original Message----- > From: Richard Erlacher [mailto:edick@idcomm.com] > Maxing out the RAM is probably not a bad idea, but I'd > suggest you attempt to > figure out why the non-working ones don't work, and, if > that's the only problem > you can't solve, I'll happily send you the necessary DRAMs > for the cost of > postage. I _think_ there are video problems with both units. They seem to attempt to boot up, while leaving the monitor in a relatively empty state. Regards, Chris Christopher Smith, Perl Developer Amdocs - Champaign, IL /usr/bin/perl -e ' print((~"\x95\xc4\xe3"^"Just Another Perl Hacker.")."\x08!\n"); ' From mikeford at socal.rr.com Fri Nov 16 12:16:58 2001 From: mikeford at socal.rr.com (Mike Ford) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:11:11 2005 Subject: Apple ][-series sound board?? In-Reply-To: <002401c16eb1$8b9d67a0$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> References: <200111161412.GAA08704@stockholm.ptloma.edu> <3BF52799.2030001@dragonsweb.org> Message-ID: >What's an Ultima? Some game Lord British did after Akalabeth. From mikeford at socal.rr.com Fri Nov 16 12:13:38 2001 From: mikeford at socal.rr.com (Mike Ford) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:11:11 2005 Subject: Apple ][-series sound board?? In-Reply-To: <3BF528D4.3060708@dragonsweb.org> References: <200111161412.GAA08704@stockholm.ptloma.edu> Message-ID: >>>But I remember buying Skyfox just to hear what the mockingboard could >>>do. Anybody remember if any other software written for the Apple][ took >>>advantage of one of the first sound cards? > >I acquire a IIe not too long ago and I'm interested in learning this >too. Don't have a sound card for it yet, though. Slip a little cash to the right person and I am sure you can get one. Just don't suddently change your lifestyle. From mcguire at neurotica.com Fri Nov 16 13:10:28 2001 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:11:11 2005 Subject: OT: Fear and helpfulness on classiccmp In-Reply-To: Re: OT: Fear and helpfulness on classiccmp (Jeffrey S. Sharp) References: <3BF515B3.1000608@dragonsweb.org> <20011116100925.Y13355-100000@lepton.subatomix.com> Message-ID: <15349.25764.557397.944039@phaduka.neurotica.com> On November 16, Jeffrey S. Sharp wrote: > There is no honor in being pounded in the ass by someone called Bubba. I > recommend that we do only legal things regarding this CDC 960. Jeff, if I can't remove all of this Dr. Pepper from this keyboard, I will hold YOU responsible! ;) -Dave -- Dave McGuire St. Petersburg, FL From edick at idcomm.com Fri Nov 16 13:15:44 2001 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:11:11 2005 Subject: OT: paging MAC expert(s) --- What's a Performa? References: Message-ID: <002b01c16ed3$1739bfe0$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> Having now looked "inside," I find that there's no Intel coprocessor, though the doc's suggest that there should be one, so the mezzanine board has apparently been removed. The modems are Global Village types, thoguh I don't know what the baud rate capability is. There's a connector on the back, which I'm sure is "stock," that has an indicator on the back of the box suggesting it's a network connector of some sort. It's a 4-pin mini-DIN. There are no add-on cards of any sort inside, though there's a clearly-marked connector for the video-in board. The SIMMs are 4 MB, i.e. they have 8 1Mx4 DRAMs on board. With a half-GB HDD, which was "stock" with the '630, I've got to say this was a MINIMALLY equipped computer, though the popular functions all seem to be there. I'm not at all certain how they (Apple) got all that functionality out of the clearly limited resources. That was their trick for keeping costs low, however. It makes it hard to understand why the got rid of their CEO at about that time (/94-94), since he seemingly presided over the generation of this and similarly high-profit machines. The stockholders should have loved that. These were released in early '95, and the typical PC of the time had at least twice the hard disk space and, typically, 16 or 32 MB of RAM, and I do believe the typical PC of the time had a larger (14") monitor, yet overall system cost was about 20% less than this model. I'm just guessing, of course, but that's the way I seem to remember the MAC/PC price/equipment comparison. I had routine contact with numerous MAC users back then, in the form of teachers at my kids' middle/high schools, where I was on several different committees and humg around the school to snoop on them quite a bit. Dick ----- Original Message ----- From: "Chris" To: "Classic Computer" Sent: Friday, November 16, 2001 11:00 AM Subject: Re: OT: paging MAC expert(s) --- What's a Performa? > >The documentation that came with this machine implies it's already > >equipped with > >the DX2/66. Is there some sort of utility in the system that would make > >it easy > >to see what the thing perceives itself as having? > > If you boot it, you will probably find a copy of Apple System Profiler in > the Apple menu. That will tell you what you have installed. > > The stock 630 series is actually a fairly useful machine. It used 72pin > SIMMS (FPM, but EDO work just fine), there is only one RAM slot, so it > will max out the machine at 36mb (32mb chip + 4 on board). The VRAM is > non upgradable. > > As a stock machine, they are good workstations (pending you use non PPC > only software, since it is a 33mhz LC040.. the LC040 is a 68040 without > the FPU built into the chip). > > I have a 630 running right now as a mail server, keeps up with everything > I give it no problems (runs Mac OS 8.1, with Stalker Internet Mail > Server... hosts a few domains and a few thousand emails a day, with a few > hundred accounts... never even hiccups). > > The HD is IDE, which makes it cheap and easy to upgrade. > > Other things of interest. It may have an ethernet card, but if you said > it came with a modem, I doubt it has ethernet (was the modem internal? > You could get an internal 14.4 geoport fax/modem in the Comm Slot... the > GeoPort modem is similar to those WinModems that use the processor to > handle all the modem functions, and the modem acts pretty much as an > AD/DA converter. HOWEVER, you may have one of the modems that was made by > global village... THOSE modems are real modems, and VERY VERY good, with > supurb fax software). If the modem is external, then you might have an > ethernet card in the Comm slot (look at the back for an RJ45 connector). > If you have a Global Village external modem (common performa modem), the > bronze (probably the one you have) is 2400 fax. It is a VERY good fax > modem, with excellent software... not so good of a regular modem (some > extension conflicts with the modem control software). There is also a > Gold version that was 28.8 fax... much better regular modem (newer > software, cured most of the extension conflicts) > > Also, your docs indicate that it has the DOS card installed. However, the > 630 didn't ship with a dos card... that was the 640 (upgraded version of > the 630, the 640 came stock with a DOS card... IIRC it was available for > the 630 as a 3rd party add in by Reply, so it may have been added). The > quickest way to tell if a dos card is installed is look at the back of > the machine. You will see an expansion slot. If there is a fairly densely > pinned DB connector in the expansion slot, you have a DOS card. There > should be a dongle cable for it that will connect between the DOS card, > and the Mac's video out. The cable will then provide a RGB connector, and > a Midi/Joystick connector. If you don't have that cable, the DOS card is > useless... good luck finding a replacement cable. > > Finally, the 630 supports Video In/Out and a TV Tuner. Again, look at the > back of the machine, if you see RCA connectors for video, left and right > audio (Yellow, Red and White, RCAs), you have the video In/Out card. If > you ALSO see a RF Coax screw on connector, you have the TV Tuner... if > you have these... contact me, I would be interested in possibly > buying/trading them with you (I have a need for the TV Tuner card, but > will take them as a pair). If you have the TV Tuner card, you should also > have a remote control. It will either be a skinny black remote, or a > little credit card sized remote. Failure to have the remote will not > prevent the card from working, it just means you have to do all the > controls on the computer. (The Video Player software supports all the > remote functions directly, the remote was just a nicity). > > What else... If the DOS card is not present, then the 630 has an LC PDS > slot, there are a few cards available for it (network, video, > accelerators, odds and ends). I think that is pretty much it. The 630 > series is a very good 040 machine, and can still be used for a number of > things. > > -chris > > > > From lemay at cs.umn.edu Fri Nov 16 13:22:41 2001 From: lemay at cs.umn.edu (Lawrence LeMay) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:11:11 2005 Subject: TRS-80 Model IV In-Reply-To: <001301c16ecb$4fa95b40$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> Message-ID: <200111161922.NAA04114@caesar.cs.umn.edu> I thought that they required a PAL in addition to extra ram chips, in order to install a memory upgrade. -Lawrence LeMay > Maxing out the RAM is probably not a bad idea, but I'd suggest you attempt to > figure out why the non-working ones don't work, and, if that's the only problem > you can't solve, I'll happily send you the necessary DRAMs for the cost of > postage. > > These are not complicated machines, so, once you've found the software and once > you've located the defective components, they're probably pretty easy to fix, > aside from the somewhat touchy business of desoldering parts from the rather > low-quality PCB's. > > Dick > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Christopher Smith" > To: "Classiccmp (E-mail)" > Sent: Friday, November 16, 2001 9:54 AM > Subject: TRS-80 Model IV > > > > Hi again. :) > > > > I just thought of another question. I have in my possession four TRS-80 > > model IVs. Two portables, (one working, one not), and two desktops (one > > working, one not). > > > > The desktop will run in Model III emulation mode. The portable will turn on > > and ask for a disk. > > > > Anybody know where I can find some operating system(s) for them? > > > > I'm also thinking about taking the ram from the non-working machines, and > > using it to max out the memory in the working ones. Good idea, bad idea? > > > > Regards, > > > > Chris > > > > Christopher Smith, Perl Developer > > Amdocs - Champaign, IL > > > > /usr/bin/perl -e ' > > print((~"\x95\xc4\xe3"^"Just Another Perl Hacker.")."\x08!\n"); > > ' > > > > > > > From menadeau at mediaone.net Fri Nov 16 13:40:24 2001 From: menadeau at mediaone.net (Michael Nadeau) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:11:11 2005 Subject: TRS-80 Model IV References: <3B55D7F383B0D31197D9009027541CBF1170DE74@cmiexch1.cmi.itds.com> Message-ID: <002d01c16ed6$8d17f9e0$0b01a8c0@ValuedCustomer> If you're not talking about the portables, I'd check the obvious first. Open up the case and reseat the video cables. Check for tarnished/corroded connectors. I haven't opened a Model 4 in years, but as I recall it's relatively easy to pull and twist the video cables in the process, affecting the connection. --Mike Michael Nadeau Editorial Services 603-893-2379 ----- Original Message ----- From: "Christopher Smith" To: Sent: Friday, November 16, 2001 2:06 PM Subject: RE: TRS-80 Model IV > > -----Original Message----- > > From: Richard Erlacher [mailto:edick@idcomm.com] > > > Maxing out the RAM is probably not a bad idea, but I'd > > suggest you attempt to > > figure out why the non-working ones don't work, and, if > > that's the only problem > > you can't solve, I'll happily send you the necessary DRAMs > > for the cost of > > postage. > > I _think_ there are video problems with both units. They seem to attempt to > boot up, while leaving the monitor in a relatively empty state. > > Regards, > > Chris > > Christopher Smith, Perl Developer > Amdocs - Champaign, IL > > /usr/bin/perl -e ' > print((~"\x95\xc4\xe3"^"Just Another Perl Hacker.")."\x08!\n"); > ' > From bpope at wordstock.com Fri Nov 16 13:54:38 2001 From: bpope at wordstock.com (Bryan Pope) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:11:11 2005 Subject: OT: paging MAC expert(s) --- What's a Performa? In-Reply-To: <002b01c16ed3$1739bfe0$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> from "Richard Erlacher" at Nov 16, 01 12:15:44 pm Message-ID: <200111161954.OAA01332@wordstock.com> NetBSD is also available for 68k Macs... Check it out at http://www.netbsd.org/Ports/mac68k/ Bryan > > > > The stock 630 series is actually a fairly useful machine. It used 72pin > > SIMMS (FPM, but EDO work just fine), there is only one RAM slot, so it > > will max out the machine at 36mb (32mb chip + 4 on board). The VRAM is > > non upgradable. > > > > As a stock machine, they are good workstations (pending you use non PPC > > only software, since it is a 33mhz LC040.. the LC040 is a 68040 without > > the FPU built into the chip). > > From csmith at amdocs.com Fri Nov 16 14:08:11 2001 From: csmith at amdocs.com (Christopher Smith) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:11:11 2005 Subject: TRS-80 Model IV Message-ID: <3B55D7F383B0D31197D9009027541CBF1170DE7D@cmiexch1.cmi.itds.com> If they do, I'm not aware of it. This may be the case, though. Christopher Smith, Perl Developer Amdocs - Champaign, IL /usr/bin/perl -e ' print((~"\x95\xc4\xe3"^"Just Another Perl Hacker.")."\x08!\n"); ' > -----Original Message----- > From: Lawrence LeMay [mailto:lemay@cs.umn.edu] > Sent: Friday, November 16, 2001 1:23 PM > To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org > Subject: Re: TRS-80 Model IV > > > I thought that they required a PAL in addition to extra ram chips, in > order to install a memory upgrade. From csmith at amdocs.com Fri Nov 16 14:42:21 2001 From: csmith at amdocs.com (Christopher Smith) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:11:11 2005 Subject: TRS-80 Model IV Message-ID: <3B55D7F383B0D31197D9009027541CBF1170DE81@cmiexch1.cmi.itds.com> Again, there is one desktop, and one portable. I was relatively sure to keep all the cables in the proper spot. On the other hand, I can't say I checked well for corrosion/loose connections/etc. Chris Christopher Smith, Perl Developer Amdocs - Champaign, IL /usr/bin/perl -e ' print((~"\x95\xc4\xe3"^"Just Another Perl Hacker.")."\x08!\n"); ' > -----Original Message----- > From: Michael Nadeau [mailto:menadeau@mediaone.net] > If you're not talking about the portables, I'd check the > obvious first. Open > up the case and reseat the video cables. Check for tarnished/corroded > connectors. I haven't opened a Model 4 in years, but as I recall it's > relatively easy to pull and twist the video cables in the > process, affecting > the connection. From dittman at dittman.net Fri Nov 16 14:55:30 2001 From: dittman at dittman.net (Eric Dittman) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:11:11 2005 Subject: TRS-80 Model IV In-Reply-To: <200111161922.NAA04114@caesar.cs.umn.edu> from "Lawrence LeMay" at Nov 16, 2001 01:22:41 PM Message-ID: <200111162055.fAGKtUx02415@narnia.int.dittman.net> > I thought that they required a PAL in addition to extra ram chips, in > order to install a memory upgrade. That is only on the non-gate array systems. The gate array systems just require the RAM and some jumper changes. -- Eric Dittman dittman@dittman.net Check out the DEC Enthusiasts Club at http://www.dittman.net/ From dittman at dittman.net Fri Nov 16 14:57:26 2001 From: dittman at dittman.net (Eric Dittman) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:11:11 2005 Subject: TRS-80 Model IV In-Reply-To: <3BF5619B.CFAB8108@ecubics.com> from "emanuel stiebler" at Nov 16, 2001 11:57:31 AM Message-ID: <200111162057.fAGKvQh02423@narnia.int.dittman.net> > And because we're on the subject, > I'm still looking for this: > > "trs-80 model IV technical reference manual" > > some people sent me links where I could find it, but this manual was > never there. > Some of them are just 404, and sometimes there is the wrong manual > there. > > So, PLEASE anybody knows where I can find a copy of it ? There were two different version. One was in a brown binder and covered only the non-gate array systems, and was 8.5"x11". The other was in a smaller format (I forget the size) and was in a beige binder. I have a copy of each, but I've never seen online copies. -- Eric Dittman dittman@dittman.net Check out the DEC Enthusiasts Club at http://www.dittman.net/ From dittman at dittman.net Fri Nov 16 15:01:11 2001 From: dittman at dittman.net (Eric Dittman) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:11:11 2005 Subject: TRS-80 Model IV In-Reply-To: <001301c16ecb$4fa95b40$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> from "Richard Erlacher" at Nov 16, 2001 11:20:03 AM Message-ID: <200111162101.fAGL1B802439@narnia.int.dittman.net> > Maxing out the RAM is probably not a bad idea, but I'd suggest you attempt to > figure out why the non-working ones don't work, and, if that's the only problem > you can't solve, I'll happily send you the necessary DRAMs for the cost of > postage. > > These are not complicated machines, so, once you've found the software and once > you've located the defective components, they're probably pretty easy to fix, > aside from the somewhat touchy business of desoldering parts from the rather > low-quality PCB's. I had a gate array 4P with a dead video. Everything looked good going in to the video gate array, but nothing was coming out. I tried the video gate array from my 4 and it worked, so I ordered a new video gate array from Radio Shack. That was about 10 years ago. I don't know if they still have any of the custom chips in stock any more. If not, then you'll have to look for another dead system for replacements (if one of the gate arrays is bad; they are socketed). The standard chips should be easy to find. -- Eric Dittman dittman@dittman.net Check out the DEC Enthusiasts Club at http://www.dittman.net/ From dittman at dittman.net Fri Nov 16 15:04:50 2001 From: dittman at dittman.net (Eric Dittman) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:11:11 2005 Subject: QBUS FDDI (DEFQA) In-Reply-To: <15349.24639.494290.936558@phaduka.neurotica.com> from "Dave McGuire" at Nov 16, 2001 01:51:43 PM Message-ID: <200111162104.fAGL4oe02457@narnia.int.dittman.net> > On November 15, Eric Dittman wrote: > > > Yup, they made 'em. Scarce as hen's teeth. I finally got one > > > (purely by chance, actually!) after a *lot* of searching. > > > > You wouldn't happen to want to sell yours, would you? > > Nope, sorry man. Too bad. I'll just keep looking. -- Eric Dittman dittman@dittman.net Check out the DEC Enthusiasts Club at http://www.dittman.net/ From edick at idcomm.com Fri Nov 16 15:08:03 2001 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:11:11 2005 Subject: OT: paging MAC expert(s) --- What's a Performa? References: <200111161954.OAA01332@wordstock.com> Message-ID: <001f01c16ee2$c8001f40$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> Since I have an internal DSL modem to provide internet connectivity for the PC's here at home, how would I capitalize on NetBSD on a MAC? I'm not excited about buying MAC hardware, either. Is there a cheap and easy way to use NetBSD without a major outlay and majof effort? I'd bet not. I've really never seen anything involving hardware that could be done cheaply AND easily on a MAC. Most things seem to be both insanely difficult and excruciatingly costly. IIRC, I once ordered a simple router of some sort, a PC/AT + "fancy" monitor + HP LaserJet printer + extra LJ memory + software for MUCH (nearly half) less than it cost to attach the half-dozen MAC's in our office to an Apple laser printer. Most of the cost for the Apple solution was for the Apple printer, of course, but it still left quite a margin! The fact that the Apple printer used postscript probably contributed mightily to its cost as opposed to the LJII, but it probably didn't cost that much. I could have used a postscript cartridge, I guess, but the software managed that problem. I can see why the MAC users of the mid '90's liked the MAC. It shuts down right away, as opposed to making you wait around to shut off the computer. Of course, I don't know how it behaves on a network. I've read that the reason the PC under Windows shuts down slowly is because it takes time to dismiss the various connections, logical and physical on the LAN. I'm not convinced, however, but that's one excuse that's been published. Dick ----- Original Message ----- From: "Bryan Pope" To: Sent: Friday, November 16, 2001 12:54 PM Subject: Re: OT: paging MAC expert(s) --- What's a Performa? > > NetBSD is also available for 68k Macs... Check it out at > > http://www.netbsd.org/Ports/mac68k/ > > Bryan > > > > > > > > The stock 630 series is actually a fairly useful machine. It used 72pin > > > SIMMS (FPM, but EDO work just fine), there is only one RAM slot, so it > > > will max out the machine at 36mb (32mb chip + 4 on board). The VRAM is > > > non upgradable. > > > > > > As a stock machine, they are good workstations (pending you use non PPC > > > only software, since it is a 33mhz LC040.. the LC040 is a 68040 without > > > the FPU built into the chip). > > > > > From vze2mnvr at verizon.net Fri Nov 16 15:22:58 2001 From: vze2mnvr at verizon.net (Ian Koller) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:11:11 2005 Subject: Surplus Legal Issues, was Re: Fw: Control Data Cyber 960 References: Message-ID: <3BF583B2.44A4FC29@verizon.net> John Lawson wrote: > I spent a good number of years in the Aerospace surplus business in > California, > 'difficult' situation, and I know of five people who have done jail time > for various scams and transgressions. Was that George Straza, or something involving Jet Air ( or something like that ) John Lawson wrote: > > Re: Jail time for surplus: > > I spent a good number of years in the Aerospace surplus business in > California, and I have personally been involved in more than one > 'difficult' situation, and I know of five people who have done jail time > for various scams and transgressions. Fortunately, it was the policy of > the company I worked for to never get involved in that stuff, because it's > like asking the Mafia for a loan... it never ends after that. > > The manager of a large California firm is probably still in jail... it > was well known that it you wanted a particular bid, you just 'negotiated' > with him, and damn! You Won it! He got tripped up by making triple > payments on his house, buying a big boat and a new truck and trailer for > it... a clerk in his credit union wondered out loud just how he was able > to afford all this on his regular income.... he 'fessed up when they > came to audit him, and was taken away in cuffs. > > I was working for a small place many years ago that had recieved, by > Government contractor error, a 'classified' piece of radio gear stuck in a > truckload of other RF junk we bought. The Feds came storming in one > afternoon with the swat team (I am *not* making this up!!) and I spent > about twenty minutes eating the dirty carpet with the muzzle of a rifle > hovering behind my ear...same as the rest of the staff of the place... > while they had the owner take them (at gunpoint) out in the 'yard', to the > item in "question", which was then covered and taken away. After that, we > were allowed up, but had to stay there in the office while the Feds went > over and over and over the paperwork, and alternately grilling each of us > about the 'item'. Then, they just left, without even a word. It was then > 8:00 at night, and a crowd had gathered outside the place. > > Fun story now, but then, well... > > Such things go on all the time. > > Cheers > > John From mrbill at mrbill.net Fri Nov 16 15:47:40 2001 From: mrbill at mrbill.net (Bill Bradford) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:11:11 2005 Subject: OT: Fear and helpfulness on classiccmp In-Reply-To: <3BF546F1.7060106@dragonsweb.org> References: <20011116100925.Y13355-100000@lepton.subatomix.com> <3BF546F1.7060106@dragonsweb.org> Message-ID: <20011116154740.J5673@mrbill.net> On Fri, Nov 16, 2001 at 12:03:45PM -0500, James B. DiGriz wrote: > Let's leave Bubba out of this. He's a figment of somebody's imagination. > A bogeyman conjured up by the scared-straight hellfire-and-damnation > crowd who profess to believe that people won't be civilized unless > they're beat or frightened into it. The ones who trot out the reformed > ex-cons to terrorize the sunday schoolers with. In actual practice, real > people who try to be Bubbas get seriously dead real quick. You've obviously never spent any long periods of time in a jail cell. 8-) Bill -- Bill Bradford mrbill@mrbill.net Austin, TX From geoffr at zipcon.net Fri Nov 16 16:37:23 2001 From: geoffr at zipcon.net (Geoff Reed) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:11:11 2005 Subject: OT: paging MAC expert(s) --- What's a Performa? In-Reply-To: <002d01c16e42$81d680e0$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> References: Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20011116143555.034d76c0@mail.zipcon.net> At 07:00 PM 11/15/01 -0700, you wrote: >Yes, this is a fairly comprehensive site, but, wouldn't you know it, the first >thing I encountered, in looking for spec's, was that the item regarding the >Performa630CD clearly claims it uses a 68030 at 33 MHz, while the Apple doc's >and http://www.info.apple.com/info.apple.com/applespec/applespec.taf?RID=180 >both seem to agree that it's an MC68LC040 (an'040 variant, (probably degraded >... it is an APPLE product, after all ...) at 66 MHz AND a '486DX2/66. I >suppose the bus speed could be the rating base rather than some invisible >clock >doubler or whatever. an 68LC040 is an 040, without the Math Coprocessor IIRC (LC = LowCost) you can pull the LC040 (if it is socketed) and put a full 68040 in and get a speed boost. the 486 chip is on a daughtercard that goes into the PDS (Processor direct Slot IIRC) From geoffr at zipcon.net Fri Nov 16 16:38:55 2001 From: geoffr at zipcon.net (Geoff Reed) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:11:11 2005 Subject: Apple ][-series sound board?? In-Reply-To: <001d01c16e4e$be0e57c0$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> References: <200111160257.UAA28830@caesar.cs.umn.edu> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20011116143837.034e3a00@mail.zipcon.net> it's an apple sound board. At 08:28 PM 11/15/01 -0700, you wrote: >It seems that I've got a board with a couple of components that were recently >the topic of a lengthy thread. This is labelled "Mockingboard" from Sweet >Microsystems, and dated 1983. Unfortunately, it appears to be missing its >resident EPROM, so I doubt it's much more than a pair of 6522's and a pair of >ay3-8913's, plus a couple of LM386 audio amp's. > >Does anyone know anything specific about this board? What's its claim to >fame? > >Has anybody got either the EPROM contents, manuals, software, or a desire for >this board? > >Dick From geoffr at zipcon.net Fri Nov 16 16:44:21 2001 From: geoffr at zipcon.net (Geoff Reed) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:11:11 2005 Subject: TRS-80 Model IV In-Reply-To: <3B55D7F383B0D31197D9009027541CBF1170DE7D@cmiexch1.cmi.itds .com> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20011116144340.034d3cf0@mail.zipcon.net> there were 2 basic mod 4's IIRC, a unit that required a PAL upgrade for more ram and a Non-pal unit... I don't remember how to tell the difference anymore though :( At 02:08 PM 11/16/01 -0600, you wrote: >If they do, I'm not aware of it. This may be the case, though. > >Christopher Smith, Perl Developer >Amdocs - Champaign, IL > >/usr/bin/perl -e ' >print((~"\x95\xc4\xe3"^"Just Another Perl Hacker.")."\x08!\n"); >' > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: Lawrence LeMay [mailto:lemay@cs.umn.edu] > > Sent: Friday, November 16, 2001 1:23 PM > > To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org > > Subject: Re: TRS-80 Model IV > > > > > > I thought that they required a PAL in addition to extra ram chips, in > > order to install a memory upgrade. From edick at idcomm.com Fri Nov 16 17:14:21 2001 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:11:11 2005 Subject: OT: paging MAC expert(s) --- What's a Performa? References: Message-ID: <003201c16ef4$6c73f9a0$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> So ... where does one find this "Apple System Profiler?" Does it live on the MAC CD? Dick ----- Original Message ----- From: "Chris" To: "Classic Computer" Sent: Friday, November 16, 2001 11:00 AM Subject: Re: OT: paging MAC expert(s) --- What's a Performa? > >The documentation that came with this machine implies it's already > >equipped with > >the DX2/66. Is there some sort of utility in the system that would make > >it easy > >to see what the thing perceives itself as having? > > If you boot it, you will probably find a copy of Apple System Profiler in > the Apple menu. That will tell you what you have installed. > > The stock 630 series is actually a fairly useful machine. It used 72pin ... > -chris > > > > From mythtech at Mac.com Fri Nov 16 17:14:23 2001 From: mythtech at Mac.com (Chris) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:11:11 2005 Subject: OT: paging MAC expert(s) --- What's a Performa? Message-ID: >Actually my Performa 631CD has a DOS card from a Performa 640 and it >doesn't need the three headed cable that the DOS card in my Powermac >6100 does. The 631's DOS card uses the Mac video output and you use a >command enter keysequence to switch between full screen DOS to Full >screen Mac. The back panel on the DOS card only has a D-15 joystick >connector that connects to the tiny Sound Blaster Vibra 16 card mounted >on the DOS card. I've never finished setting up the 6100's DOS card to >know how the video works on it. Interesting. I have used the DOS card on the 610 (both the Apple "houdini" card, and the Reply marketed card), the 6100, and the 4400/7200. ALL needed the DOS card cable. And although I haven't used the 7 or 12" PC cards apple sold for other PCI PowerMacs, I have seen them, and they all use the dongle cable too. That means, the 640's dos card was the ONLY one sold by apple that didn't need the cable. Very interesting indeed. -chris From jpero at sympatico.ca Fri Nov 16 12:18:43 2001 From: jpero at sympatico.ca (jpero@sympatico.ca) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:11:11 2005 Subject: OT: paging MAC expert(s) --- What's a Performa? In-Reply-To: <002b01c16ed3$1739bfe0$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> Message-ID: <20011116231532.FJHS16532.tomts17-srv.bellnexxia.net@duron> > From: "Richard Erlacher" > To: > Subject: Re: OT: paging MAC expert(s) --- What's a Performa? > Date: Fri, 16 Nov 2001 12:15:44 -0700 > Organization: Erlacher Associates > Reply-to: classiccmp@classiccmp.org > Having now looked "inside," I find that there's no Intel coprocessor, though the > doc's suggest that there should be one, so the mezzanine board has apparently > been removed. The modems are Global Village types, thoguh I don't know what the > baud rate capability is. There's a connector on the back, which I'm sure is > "stock," that has an indicator on the back of the box suggesting it's a network > connector of some sort. It's a 4-pin mini-DIN. There are no add-on cards of > any sort inside, though there's a clearly-marked connector for the video-in > board. The SIMMs are 4 MB, i.e. they have 8 1Mx4 DRAMs on board. With a > half-GB HDD, which was "stock" with the '630, I've got to say this was a > MINIMALLY equipped computer, though the popular functions all seem to be there. > I'm not at all certain how they (Apple) got all that functionality out of the > clearly limited resources. That was their trick for keeping costs low, however. > It makes it hard to understand why the got rid of their CEO at about that time > (/94-94), since he seemingly presided over the generation of this and similarly > high-profit machines. The stockholders should have loved that. > > These were released in early '95, and the typical PC of the time had at least > twice the hard disk space and, typically, 16 or 32 MB of RAM, and I do believe > the typical PC of the time had a larger (14") monitor, yet overall system cost > was about 20% less than this model. > > I'm just guessing, of course, but that's the way I seem to remember the MAC/PC > price/equipment comparison. I had routine contact with numerous MAC users back > then, in the form of teachers at my kids' middle/high schools, where I was on > several different committees and humg around the school to snoop on them quite a > bit. > > Dick Dick, There are two versions of logic boards, one has only one slot for ram w/ solder holes for second slot. The other one has two slots. Both logicboards are 4MB onboard, uses seperate VRAM onboard. Performa and LC 630 uses LC040. Quadra 630 has '040. Not all have the DOS compatiable daughterboard by default. Some got upgraded with it some came as stock when bought from apple, which will say CD DOS Compatiable right on the front end. Comm slot (small one) can either be ethernet, modem. Other slot is for other uses. At that time, (61,71,81)00 is in the lineup when 630ers replaced the low end giant 610ers and IIvx (yuk). Then early 601 machines got replaced by 603 (yuk except for 6360) and 604 (better) based machines. LC475 and Q605 was in that same lineup too based on LC040 25. Personally those two pizza boxes is my favorites, cheap and small, easy to ship and comparable to 630 in perfromance-wise and expansion. In that early times 90-95 era, apple made many bone-headed moves and using weird parts in strange ways that hurt performance-wise and spawned bugs, expansion quirks. Cheers, Wizard PS: Stick w/ 7.1.x if you don't expand the ram on 630 beyond 8MB. From mythtech at Mac.com Fri Nov 16 17:27:55 2001 From: mythtech at Mac.com (Chris) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:11:11 2005 Subject: OT: paging MAC expert(s) --- What's a Performa? Message-ID: > With a >half-GB HDD, which was "stock" with the '630, Actually the 630 came stock with a 250mb drive. The 631 had the 500mb. Others in the 63x series had either 250's or 350's. >I've got to say this was a >MINIMALLY equipped computer, though the popular functions all seem to be >there. >I'm not at all certain how they (Apple) got all that functionality out of the >clearly limited resources. That is because, up until OS 8, the Mac OS needed very little to run. When compared to Windows, the MacOS was AMAZINGLY fast, stable, and compact. OS 8 changed the RAM requirements because it moved the Mac ROM from the logic board, to the hard drive (and thus, into RAM when the OS was running). This caused a spike in the OS RAM requirements. (7.5.5 can run in 4mb, 7.6 in 8mb but 8.0 jumps to 32mb) >I do believe >the typical PC of the time had a larger (14") monitor IIRC, the entire performa color screen line came a 14" monitor (various revision, but all were 14... the 630 was probably the Performa Plus display). So the larger monitor point isn't really valid. >yet overall system cost >was about 20% less than this model. Yup.. ok, ya got me there. This was during the fairly obvious days of Mac's being more expensive for what you got out of it (20% ?, you are being nice) -chris From mythtech at Mac.com Fri Nov 16 17:32:48 2001 From: mythtech at Mac.com (Chris) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:11:11 2005 Subject: OT: paging MAC expert(s) --- What's a Performa? Message-ID: >There's a connector on the back, which I'm sure is >"stock," that has an indicator on the back of the box suggesting it's a >network >connector of some sort. It's a 4-pin mini-DIN. Little 3 pronged thingy icon... thats ADB... plug the keyboard in there, chain the mouse thru the keyboard (you'll find the same connector on the keyboard) 4 pin mini din should only be ADB on a Mac... at least in terms of "stock" connectors. -chris From zaft at azstarnet.com Fri Nov 16 17:38:11 2001 From: zaft at azstarnet.com (Gordon Zaft) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:11:11 2005 Subject: Ultrix WS Software manual F4COS Message-ID: <4.3.2.7.2.20011116163544.01daf170@mail.azstarnet.com> That's an Ultrix Workstation Software manual, free for cost of shipping. Spine says: System Management Volume 1 Advanced Installation Guide Capacity Upgrade Instructions Intro to System and Network Management System Environment Setup Email me offlist if you wanted, first come first served... G From edick at idcomm.com Fri Nov 16 17:40:15 2001 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:11:11 2005 Subject: OT: paging MAC expert(s) --- What's a Performa? References: <5.1.0.14.2.20011116143555.034d76c0@mail.zipcon.net> Message-ID: <004301c16ef8$0ae04820$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> Yes, and though the software to support this apparently auxilliary CPU seems to have been installed, the 486 itself isn't present. Too bad, but I didn't snag the MAC's in order to run a '486. It's apparenly not so simple figuring out what's installed, hardware wise, though. Apparently there's some sort of system search facility somewhere, but it's not a trivial thing finding it. That teensy 12" screen doesn't help when you're half-blind as many guys my age are. There's a program (somewhere) called "FINDER," though I'm not convinced it's for the purpose of finding something. What I need to find out is how to find the FINDER. Then, of course, I have to figure out how to drive it ... will it ever end ... Dick ----- Original Message ----- From: "Geoff Reed" To: Sent: Friday, November 16, 2001 3:37 PM Subject: Re: OT: paging MAC expert(s) --- What's a Performa? > At 07:00 PM 11/15/01 -0700, you wrote: > >Yes, this is a fairly comprehensive site, but, wouldn't you know it, the first > >thing I encountered, in looking for spec's, was that the item regarding the > >Performa630CD clearly claims it uses a 68030 at 33 MHz, while the Apple doc's > >and http://www.info.apple.com/info.apple.com/applespec/applespec.taf?RID=180 > >both seem to agree that it's an MC68LC040 (an'040 variant, (probably degraded > >... it is an APPLE product, after all ...) at 66 MHz AND a '486DX2/66. I > >suppose the bus speed could be the rating base rather than some invisible > >clock doubler or whatever. > > an 68LC040 is an 040, without the Math Coprocessor IIRC (LC = LowCost) you > can pull the LC040 (if it is socketed) and put a full 68040 in and get a > speed boost. the 486 chip is on a daughtercard that goes into the PDS > (Processor direct Slot IIRC) > > From mythtech at Mac.com Fri Nov 16 17:41:55 2001 From: mythtech at Mac.com (Chris) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:11:11 2005 Subject: OT: paging MAC expert(s) --- What's a Performa? Message-ID: >I've really never seen >anything involving hardware that could be done cheaply AND easily on a MAC. >Most things seem to be both insanely difficult and excruciatingly costly. I'll give you the expensive part (up until the latest machines with their USB, most mac hardware has been up to twice as much as the same thing on the PC). But EVERYTHING about Mac hardware is easy. Things just work. >IIRC, I once ordered a simple router of some sort, a PC/AT + "fancy" >monitor + >HP LaserJet printer + extra LJ memory + software for MUCH (nearly half) less >than it cost to attach the half-dozen MAC's in our office to an Apple laser >printer. Most of the cost for the Apple solution was for the Apple >printer, of >course, but it still left quite a margin! The fact that the Apple printer >used >postscript probably contributed mightily to its cost as opposed to the >LJII, but >it probably didn't cost that much. I could have used a postscript >cartridge, I >guess, but the software managed that problem. The postscript card probably would have been much cheaper. I don't recall if the HPLJII had provisions for adding localtalk or ethertalk, but there were boxes available back then that could provide it (plugged in to the parallel port). The two combined probably would have been cheaper than your PC + monitor. Which, of course, I won't argue was probably a cheaper solution than buying some of the Apple branded printers. >I can see why the MAC users of the mid '90's liked the MAC. It shuts down >right >away, as opposed to making you wait around to shut off the computer. Of >course, >I don't know how it behaves on a network. I've read that the reason the PC >under Windows shuts down slowly is because it takes time to dismiss the >various >connections, logical and physical on the LAN. I'm not convinced, however, >but >that's one excuse that's been published. Well, that is the advantage of using a GOOD OS (strictly speaking in comparison to Windows of the era, so compared to Win up to and including win95). Oh, and it behaves just fine with network connections (regardless of protocol)... far better than one would expect if you use Appletalk (once again... it just works... chatty, but works). -chris From edick at idcomm.com Fri Nov 16 17:55:11 2001 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:11:11 2005 Subject: OT: paging MAC expert(s) --- What's a Performa? References: Message-ID: <005001c16efa$20f82fe0$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> Yup! Made sense to me, so that's where I plugged 'em. It does look suspiciously like the USB symbol, which, of course, it isn't. Dick ----- Original Message ----- From: "Chris" To: "Classic Computer" Sent: Friday, November 16, 2001 4:32 PM Subject: Re: OT: paging MAC expert(s) --- What's a Performa? > >There's a connector on the back, which I'm sure is > >"stock," that has an indicator on the back of the box suggesting it's a > >network > >connector of some sort. It's a 4-pin mini-DIN. > > Little 3 pronged thingy icon... thats ADB... plug the keyboard in there, > chain the mouse thru the keyboard (you'll find the same connector on the > keyboard) 4 pin mini din should only be ADB on a Mac... at least in terms > of "stock" connectors. > > -chris > > > > From pete at dunnington.u-net.com Fri Nov 16 16:18:44 2001 From: pete at dunnington.u-net.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:11:11 2005 Subject: QBUS FDDI (DEFQA) In-Reply-To: Ethan Dicks "Re: QBUS FDDI (DEFQA)" (Nov 16, 8:36) References: <20011116163621.8370.qmail@web20105.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <10111162218.ZM13124@mindy.dunnington.u-net.com> On Nov 16, 8:36, Ethan Dicks wrote: > > --- Eric Dittman wrote: > > > > I'm in the process of converting most of my systems to FDDI... > > > > According to what I've read, the card is FDDI and not CDDI (which is how > > I refer to FDDI over copper, since there's not any F in CDDI). > > Is that like the joke with the line "there's no F in Chocolate"? LOL! I thought that too, but there's only an 'F' in FDDI on my net :-) -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager University of York From jhellige at earthlink.net Fri Nov 16 18:20:34 2001 From: jhellige at earthlink.net (Jeff Hellige) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:11:11 2005 Subject: OT: paging MAC expert(s) --- What's a Performa? In-Reply-To: <003201c16ef4$6c73f9a0$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> References: <003201c16ef4$6c73f9a0$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> Message-ID: >So ... where does one find this "Apple System Profiler?" Does it live on the >MAC CD? Pull down the 'Apple' menu up in the upper left corner and it is generally right near the top, just below the 'About' choices. Jeff -- Home of the TRS-80 Model 2000 FAQ File http://www.cchaven.com http://www.geocities.com/siliconvalley/lakes/6757 From mikeford at socal.rr.com Fri Nov 16 18:16:37 2001 From: mikeford at socal.rr.com (Mike Ford) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:11:11 2005 Subject: OT: paging MAC expert(s) --- What's a Performa? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: >>I do believe >>the typical PC of the time had a larger (14") monitor Marketed as 14" but with the same viewable image area as the Apple 13". Apple was about the last company to switch to the inflated imaginary monitor size instead of what the actual display screen size was. A pleasant surprise to me was learning that LCD screens are marketed with actual display size, so a 17" LCD is the same as a 19" tube, and that makes prices more attractive. From jhellige at earthlink.net Fri Nov 16 18:29:25 2001 From: jhellige at earthlink.net (Jeff Hellige) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:11:11 2005 Subject: OT: paging MAC expert(s) --- What's a Performa? In-Reply-To: <004301c16ef8$0ae04820$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> References: <5.1.0.14.2.20011116143555.034d76c0@mail.zipcon.net> <004301c16ef8$0ae04820$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> Message-ID: >There's a program (somewhere) called "FINDER," though I'm not >convinced it's for >the purpose of finding something. What I need to find out is how to find the >FINDER. Then, of course, I have to figure out how to drive it ... will >it ever end ... The Finder is what you're actually looking at when you boot the Mac and have nothing else running. It's the part of the OS that you actually interact with, the Mac desktop. If all else fails, go to the 'Help' menu item when the menu bar shows 'Finder' up in the upper right corner of the screen. That'll give you system help, including tips and such. Jeff -- Home of the TRS-80 Model 2000 FAQ File http://www.cchaven.com http://www.geocities.com/siliconvalley/lakes/6757 From spectre at stockholm.ptloma.edu Fri Nov 16 18:39:19 2001 From: spectre at stockholm.ptloma.edu (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:11:11 2005 Subject: OT: paging MAC expert(s) --- What's a Performa? In-Reply-To: <004301c16ef8$0ae04820$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> from Richard Erlacher at "Nov 16, 1 04:40:15 pm" Message-ID: <200111170039.QAA09132@stockholm.ptloma.edu> > There's a program (somewhere) called "FINDER," though I'm not convinced it's > for the purpose of finding something. What I need to find out is how to > find the FINDER. The Finder is a critical part of MacOS. If you're in some sort of filesystem browser where you can look through drives, double click on things, etc., that's the Finder. I strongly doubt it's missing, or the system probably would not boot. -- ----------------------------- personal page: http://www.armory.com/~spectre/ -- Cameron Kaiser, Point Loma Nazarene University * ckaiser@stockholm.ptloma.edu -- "I'd love to go out with you, but I'm stuck in the fourth lotus position." - From jhellige at earthlink.net Fri Nov 16 18:34:55 2001 From: jhellige at earthlink.net (Jeff Hellige) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:11:11 2005 Subject: OT: paging MAC expert(s) --- What's a Performa? In-Reply-To: <005001c16efa$20f82fe0$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> References: <005001c16efa$20f82fe0$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> Message-ID: >Yup! Made sense to me, so that's where I plugged 'em. It does look >suspiciously like the USB symbol, which, of course, it isn't. Even the ADB symbol predates USB by a goodly margin. It was introduced with the SE in 1987. Jeff -- Home of the TRS-80 Model 2000 FAQ File http://www.cchaven.com http://www.geocities.com/siliconvalley/lakes/6757 From spectre at stockholm.ptloma.edu Fri Nov 16 18:40:28 2001 From: spectre at stockholm.ptloma.edu (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:11:11 2005 Subject: OT: paging MAC expert(s) --- What's a Performa? In-Reply-To: <003201c16ef4$6c73f9a0$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> from Richard Erlacher at "Nov 16, 1 04:14:21 pm" Message-ID: <200111170040.QAA09060@stockholm.ptloma.edu> > So ... where does one find this "Apple System Profiler?" Does it live on the > MAC CD? Usually it would be under the Apple menu. However, I didn't think ASP came on 7.x which I assume this Mac is running (if it's running 8.x, then yes, it should be there). -- ----------------------------- personal page: http://www.armory.com/~spectre/ -- Cameron Kaiser, Point Loma Nazarene University * ckaiser@stockholm.ptloma.edu -- There are few problems that the liberal usage of high explosives can't cure. From spectre at stockholm.ptloma.edu Fri Nov 16 18:46:50 2001 From: spectre at stockholm.ptloma.edu (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:11:11 2005 Subject: OT: paging MAC expert(s) --- What's a Performa? In-Reply-To: <001f01c16ee2$c8001f40$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> from Richard Erlacher at "Nov 16, 1 02:08:03 pm" Message-ID: <200111170046.QAA09086@stockholm.ptloma.edu> > buying MAC hardware, either. Is there a cheap and easy way to use NetBSD > without a major outlay and majof effort? I'd bet not. I've really never seen > anything involving hardware that could be done cheaply AND easily on a MAC. > Most things seem to be both insanely difficult and excruciatingly costly. NetBSD on mac68k is the most mature Unix for that architecture. However, it is still not a smooth install. There's a few workarounds that you have to "just know". It is supported on the P630, but you need to have a real '040 in it (the LC040 is plagued with difficulties yet). Once it is running, it is nice and stable, but I run it on a IIci which is the NetBSD/mac68k 'typical box'. Linux/mac68k in its various forms is still quite flaky and uneven in its support. Modern Power Macs have standard IDE, USB and FireWire ports, so most things can be done for about the same price as a PC. There is still a driver gap though for some peripherals. Nevertheless, the old dogma about Macs doing half as much for twice the price is definitely no longer true. -- ----------------------------- personal page: http://www.armory.com/~spectre/ -- Cameron Kaiser, Point Loma Nazarene University * ckaiser@stockholm.ptloma.edu -- We only pretend to have standards. -- Unknown producer, ABC-TV ------------- From dburrows at netpath.net Fri Nov 16 19:39:03 2001 From: dburrows at netpath.net (Daniel T. Burrows) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:11:11 2005 Subject: Hello, and please help with RSX-11M/PDP parts Message-ID: <019401c16f08$ff3eece0$9a241bce@L166> In most cases you can type Z when it asks for the date and time. Unless they were clever in the startup routines) The you are logged in as [200,200] SET /DEF [1,54] the "normal" system account. Then your able to totally corrupt anything you want. Suggestion: DO NOT do anything but read files in [0,0] They are the equivalent of the MFT. You should find in [1,2] plain text help files for almost anything you should happen to want to do. I could help more if you had posted the version of RSX and whether it is M+ plain M or 11S. I doubt it is 11S as there it is uncommon. When it comes to the older core memory UNIBUS systems - good luck. I lost a couple in the fire and the hobby market has gone crazy for them over the last couple years. I do know of a few still in commercial use that may eventually be replaced but they are dual processor shared memory and peripheral configurations that really complicates their replacement. Dan - Going back to check on the RSX11M+ SYSGEN I started for a customer when I started to catch up on the list. -----Original Message----- From: Christopher Smith To: Classiccmp (E-mail) Date: Friday, November 16, 2001 11:30 AM Subject: Hello, and please help with RSX-11M/PDP parts > >This will be a lot to cram into one mail, but here we go... > >First off, Hi everybody. I'm newly subscribed to this list. > >Next, I was wondering whether anyone here can help my with my newly acquired >(IE rescued from the crusher) PDP-11/73. > >Straight to the point, I can get it to boot up RSX-11M, which is installed >on the fixed drive, and do *stuff*. (please correct me if I'm wrong on any >of this, by the way) > >I've figured out that the previous owner has disabled logins from the >console port, perhaps to defeat the "forgotten password" procedure that I >can't get to work ;) I can hit ^C and get an "MCR>" prompt, but nothing >else. > >There is another port which has user [10,10] logged in automatically when >the machine finishes booting, so I've been able to experiment with it some. >I've managed to figure out that INS and REM are MCR commands to insert and >remove images from the system. RUN seems to automatically insert, execute, >and perhaps afterwards remove an image. HEL will log you in (but not >without a password!), and BYE will log you out. > >What I'm missing here are basically any file-management commands! :) Does >anyone have a short reference? I could also use suggestions on a recovery >procedure to get access to the 0,0 account. > >Here are my thoughts: > >Put the drive in a MicroVAX-II (write-protected!), in place of the >MicroVAX's system disk. MOPboot the VAX from another, larger VAX, and > either the UAF or the startup files to change >the 0,0 password, or change the boot procedure so that the "forgotten >password" process will work. > >(Anyone know if this is possible, or whether there's an easier way?) > >My understanding of this "forgotten password" process is that you hit ^C >early in the boot procedure to get the "MCR>" prompt, and run the command >REM ...AT. to de-install the command-file processor so that the system can't >fully bring itself up. This somehow should cause the system to give you >privileged CLI access. > >This system is a MicroPDP-11/73, with an "MFM" type fixed drive of unknown >size, two 4-port serial boards, and an RX50 (I think that's the strange >2-in-1 floppy drive?). It tells me on bootup that it's got 512k of RAM >"mapped." I've been assuming that this is the full amount of built-in RAM. >Please correct me if I'm wrong there. I'll get the CPU revision/OS >version/etc if needed, but I don't have the system handy right now. > >Once I get the machine up and running, I'll need to make a good backup of >the drive, in some kind of bootable form, since it's the only copy of RSX >I've got. I hear there's a stand-alone BRU. Is that the way to go? It's >likely I'll backup to floppy, and image the floppies to CD. I may also >remove a tk50 and controller from a MicroVAX II, so that I can backup to >tape, and dump the tape into a file using one of my VAXen. > >Given all of the above, any suggestions? > >If I've kept your attention this far, let me also ask another, more >open-ended question. > >I'd like to get an older, unibus based PDP-11 eventually. Ideally, here is >what I'd like: > >Core memory >Programming switches on the front-panel >Reel-to-reel tape >Small package (meaning half-size to 2/3 size a normal rack. I've seen >pictures of things like this. >Some kind of disk storage >Multi-port serial > >Any advice on collecting parts, or finding old parts/systems? I've already >been given, and taken the ebay advice. No luck there yet. > >Regards, > >Chris > >Christopher Smith, Perl Developer >Amdocs - Champaign, IL > >/usr/bin/perl -e ' >print((~"\x95\xc4\xe3"^"Just Another Perl Hacker.")."\x08!\n"); >' > From mythtech at Mac.com Fri Nov 16 19:51:55 2001 From: mythtech at Mac.com (Chris) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:11:11 2005 Subject: OT: paging MAC expert(s) --- What's a Performa? Message-ID: > Even the ADB symbol predates USB by a goodly margin. It was >introduced with the SE in 1987. Actually, IIRC, it first appeared in the Apple IIgs shortly before appearing in the Mac II, THEN in the SE... but I could be wrong -chris From edick at idcomm.com Fri Nov 16 20:23:03 2001 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:11:11 2005 Subject: OT: paging MAC expert(s) --- What's a Performa? References: <003201c16ef4$6c73f9a0$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> Message-ID: <001f01c16f0e$c931e480$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> That's what I figured, too, but didn't turn out to be the case. Dick ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jeff Hellige" To: Sent: Friday, November 16, 2001 5:20 PM Subject: Re: OT: paging MAC expert(s) --- What's a Performa? > >So ... where does one find this "Apple System Profiler?" Does it live on the > >MAC CD? > > Pull down the 'Apple' menu up in the upper left corner and it > is generally right near the top, just below the 'About' choices. > > Jeff > -- > Home of the TRS-80 Model 2000 FAQ File > http://www.cchaven.com > http://www.geocities.com/siliconvalley/lakes/6757 > > From jhellige at earthlink.net Fri Nov 16 20:25:41 2001 From: jhellige at earthlink.net (Jeff Hellige) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:11:11 2005 Subject: OT: paging MAC expert(s) --- What's a Performa? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: > > Even the ADB symbol predates USB by a goodly margin. It was >>introduced with the SE in 1987. > >Actually, IIRC, it first appeared in the Apple IIgs shortly before >appearing in the Mac II, THEN in the SE... but I could be wrong Actually the IIgs, unless my timeline is wrong, was released in Sept. 1987 while both the Mac II and SE were released in March 1987. I had forgotten that the II was released at the same time though and also used ADB. Jeff -- Home of the TRS-80 Model 2000 FAQ File http://www.cchaven.com http://www.geocities.com/siliconvalley/lakes/6757 From edick at idcomm.com Fri Nov 16 20:34:41 2001 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:11:12 2005 Subject: OT: paging MAC expert(s) --- What's a Performa? References: Message-ID: <002501c16f10$69763940$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> I know what you mean. However, when MY newly purchased "14-inch" monitor didn't display an image from covering the entire visible area of the tube, I simply took it back and got a different sort of monitor. I'm looking at a low-cost 17" monitor, my smallest, right now, and there's no unused glass on the crt showing. Not everyone is as fussy as I, I guess, but I do look forward to when we'll all be able to afford 20" flat panel displays. I say that having acquired a number of large CRT displays once-upon-a-time, when they certainly cost more than equivalent flat panels cost today. I've nursed a couple of the 19- or 20-inchers for a decade and a half, giving some of them away when they became sufficiently low in contrast or sufficiently nonlinear to annoy me. Of course, I tried a number of fixed-frequency types because they appeared to be cheap enough, but they turned out otherwise once one factored in the cost of a display adapter with firmware dedicated to the specific sync pattern required for that particular monitor. When did the practice of limiting the size designation of a given monitor to something smaller than what the tube presented? It seems as though a tube with a diagonal of 14.001" is a 15-inch monitor, as is one with 14.75" on the diagonal. When they rate the "viewable" area, what they often mean is the part of the glass you can see, not the part that you can use for your display. If often requires tampering with the internals of the monitor to get a decent utilization of the front face of the tube. Dick ----- Original Message ----- From: "Mike Ford" To: Sent: Friday, November 16, 2001 5:16 PM Subject: Re: OT: paging MAC expert(s) --- What's a Performa? > >>I do believe > >>the typical PC of the time had a larger (14") monitor > > Marketed as 14" but with the same viewable image area as the Apple 13". > Apple was about the last company to switch to the inflated imaginary > monitor size instead of what the actual display screen size was. > > A pleasant surprise to me was learning that LCD screens are marketed with > actual display size, so a 17" LCD is the same as a 19" tube, and that makes > prices more attractive. > > > From edick at idcomm.com Fri Nov 16 20:40:50 2001 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:11:12 2005 Subject: OT: paging MAC expert(s) --- What's a Performa? References: <200111170039.QAA09132@stockholm.ptloma.edu> Message-ID: <005701c16f11$44e6fb40$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> Just because it isn't missing doesn't mean I can find it. Since I don't know what it really is, I'd probably not recognize it. Anyway, finder isn't what I'm after, it's the Apple System Profiler, which I'm persuaded isn't there in this version of the OS. surely there's some way to determine what hardware the machine thinks it "sees," though. Dick ----- Original Message ----- From: "Cameron Kaiser" To: Sent: Friday, November 16, 2001 5:39 PM Subject: Re: OT: paging MAC expert(s) --- What's a Performa? > > There's a program (somewhere) called "FINDER," though I'm not convinced it's > > for the purpose of finding something. What I need to find out is how to > > find the FINDER. > > The Finder is a critical part of MacOS. If you're in some sort of filesystem > browser where you can look through drives, double click on things, etc., > that's the Finder. I strongly doubt it's missing, or the system probably > would not boot. > > -- > ----------------------------- personal page: http://www.armory.com/~spectre/ -- > Cameron Kaiser, Point Loma Nazarene University * ckaiser@stockholm.ptloma.edu > -- "I'd love to go out with you, but I'm stuck in the fourth lotus position." - > > From edick at idcomm.com Fri Nov 16 20:48:32 2001 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:11:12 2005 Subject: OT: paging MAC expert(s) --- What's a Performa? References: <200111170046.QAA09086@stockholm.ptloma.edu> Message-ID: <006901c16f12$598271a0$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> It certainly impresses on me how much one can do with so little physical hardware. Now, the performance stinks, but, for the time, perhaps that wasn't so bad. It does seem to have a few places where it sticks, however. I tried to initialize a diskette, and had to wait about 5 minutes after the process ended before it would let me do anything else, though it did eventually let me back at it. Funny thing, though, is that I remember people claiming that MAC OS was multitasking. Windows allows me to play a game or whatever when I start off on a time-consuming task. This guy doesn't seem to want to do that. I had to try it on the second machine just to verify that the thing was not just bum hardware. It worked the same on the second box as well. So far, I haven't figured out what I'd do with NetBSD, though the notions interesting. Since the MAC's have 2400 baud (max) Global Village Bronze modems, they're certainly unsuited for internet use. Further, I'd expect that one would have to have some sort of external router to allow the sharing of a DSL modem or even an acoustic modem. My DSL modem under Win98 doesn't support modem sharing, though I imagine there's a workaround for that. Maybe an ethernet board would solve that, but I'm not the one ultimately going to use these, as I'm planning to donate them once they're working to my satisfaction. That will require a shared modem, since two modems won't be on the menu. Dick ----- Original Message ----- From: "Cameron Kaiser" To: Sent: Friday, November 16, 2001 5:46 PM Subject: Re: OT: paging MAC expert(s) --- What's a Performa? > > buying MAC hardware, either. Is there a cheap and easy way to use NetBSD > > without a major outlay and majof effort? I'd bet not. I've really never seen > > anything involving hardware that could be done cheaply AND easily on a MAC. > > Most things seem to be both insanely difficult and excruciatingly costly. > > NetBSD on mac68k is the most mature Unix for that architecture. However, it > is still not a smooth install. There's a few workarounds that you have to > "just know". It is supported on the P630, but you need to have a real '040 > in it (the LC040 is plagued with difficulties yet). Once it is running, it > is nice and stable, but I run it on a IIci which is the NetBSD/mac68k > 'typical box'. > > Linux/mac68k in its various forms is still quite flaky and uneven in its > support. > > Modern Power Macs have standard IDE, USB and FireWire ports, so most things > can be done for about the same price as a PC. There is still a driver gap > though for some peripherals. Nevertheless, the old dogma about Macs doing > half as much for twice the price is definitely no longer true. > > -- > ----------------------------- personal page: http://www.armory.com/~spectre/ -- > Cameron Kaiser, Point Loma Nazarene University * ckaiser@stockholm.ptloma.edu > -- We only pretend to have standards. -- Unknown producer, ABC-TV ------------- > > From jhellige at earthlink.net Fri Nov 16 20:48:55 2001 From: jhellige at earthlink.net (Jeff Hellige) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:11:12 2005 Subject: OT: paging MAC expert(s) --- What's a Performa? In-Reply-To: <001f01c16f0e$c931e480$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> References: <003201c16ef4$6c73f9a0$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> <001f01c16f0e$c931e480$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> Message-ID: >That's what I figured, too, but didn't turn out to be the case. Ahhhh...it still has System 7.X on it, which makes sense. I don't believe 'System Profiler' showed up until System 8.0 or 8.1. I know it's included in 8.1, as that is what I run on my PB 5300c, but I don't recall if it is in 7.5.X or not. Jeff -- Home of the TRS-80 Model 2000 FAQ File http://www.cchaven.com http://www.geocities.com/siliconvalley/lakes/6757 From edick at idcomm.com Fri Nov 16 20:50:13 2001 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:11:12 2005 Subject: OT: paging MAC expert(s) --- What's a Performa? References: Message-ID: <006f01c16f12$94dd2560$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> BTW ... the local thrift store had a fairly complete IIgs system sitting there yesterday. Is that of any interest to anyone? It might still be there Tuesday when they have "senior discount day" again. I didn't look at it, so don't ask ... Dick ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jeff Hellige" To: Sent: Friday, November 16, 2001 7:25 PM Subject: Re: OT: paging MAC expert(s) --- What's a Performa? > > > Even the ADB symbol predates USB by a goodly margin. It was > >>introduced with the SE in 1987. > > > >Actually, IIRC, it first appeared in the Apple IIgs shortly before > >appearing in the Mac II, THEN in the SE... but I could be wrong > > Actually the IIgs, unless my timeline is wrong, was released > in Sept. 1987 while both the Mac II and SE were released in March > 1987. I had forgotten that the II was released at the same time > though and also used ADB. > > Jeff > -- > Home of the TRS-80 Model 2000 FAQ File > http://www.cchaven.com > http://www.geocities.com/siliconvalley/lakes/6757 > > From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Nov 16 19:51:23 2001 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:11:12 2005 Subject: Cable and connector source In-Reply-To: <5.0.0.25.0.20011116074501.02f6cea0@pc> from "John Foust" at Nov 16, 1 07:49:07 am Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1033 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20011117/a0ead382/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Nov 16 19:36:24 2001 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:11:12 2005 Subject: H7140 PDP 11/24 Power Supply Advice In-Reply-To: <20011115201153.Q11982-100000@lepton.subatomix.com> from "Jeffrey S. Sharp" at Nov 15, 1 08:51:13 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1015 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20011117/921149c4/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Nov 16 20:04:52 2001 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:11:12 2005 Subject: TRS-80 Model IV In-Reply-To: <3B55D7F383B0D31197D9009027541CBF1170DE69@cmiexch1.cmi.itds.com> from "Christopher Smith" at Nov 16, 1 10:54:09 am Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1345 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20011117/1eabd816/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Nov 16 19:38:40 2001 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:11:12 2005 Subject: H7140 PDP 11/24 Power Supply Advice In-Reply-To: <3.0.2.32.20011115215505.010053e4@obregon.multi.net.co> from "Carlos Murillo" at Nov 15, 1 09:55:05 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1247 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20011117/c95f3abe/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Nov 16 20:11:35 2001 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:11:12 2005 Subject: TRS-80 Model IV In-Reply-To: <3B55D7F383B0D31197D9009027541CBF1170DE74@cmiexch1.cmi.itds.com> from "Christopher Smith" at Nov 16, 1 01:06:15 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 579 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20011117/266ea074/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Nov 16 20:14:18 2001 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:11:12 2005 Subject: TRS-80 Model IV In-Reply-To: <3B55D7F383B0D31197D9009027541CBF1170DE7D@cmiexch1.cmi.itds.com> from "Christopher Smith" at Nov 16, 1 02:08:11 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 351 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20011117/b29abf74/attachment.ksh From jhellige at earthlink.net Fri Nov 16 21:17:11 2001 From: jhellige at earthlink.net (Jeff Hellige) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:11:12 2005 Subject: OT: paging MAC expert(s) --- What's a Performa? In-Reply-To: <005701c16f11$44e6fb40$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> References: <200111170039.QAA09132@stockholm.ptloma.edu> <005701c16f11$44e6fb40$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> Message-ID: >Just because it isn't missing doesn't mean I can find it. Since I don't know >what it really is, I'd probably not recognize it. Anyway, finder >isn't what I'm >after, it's the Apple System Profiler, which I'm persuaded isn't there in this >version of the OS. surely there's some way to determine what hardware the >machine thinks it "sees," though. A program that will give you more info than 'System Profiler' is called TattleTech. Even the current beta still supports running on System 7.X and a 68020 cpu. It can be had at: http://www.tattletech.com You should be able to download it, copy it to a PC-formatted disk and be able to read the disk on the Mac. You'll need Stuffit Expander on the Mac to unarchive it though. Jeff -- Home of the TRS-80 Model 2000 FAQ File http://www.cchaven.com http://www.geocities.com/siliconvalley/lakes/6757 From edick at idcomm.com Fri Nov 16 21:33:31 2001 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:11:12 2005 Subject: OT: paging MAC expert(s) --- What's a Performa? References: <200111170039.QAA09132@stockholm.ptloma.edu> <005701c16f11$44e6fb40$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> Message-ID: <000701c16f18$a1924320$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> I've downloaded TattleTech, but where, now, do I find the Stuffit Expander? regards, Dick ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jeff Hellige" To: Sent: Friday, November 16, 2001 8:17 PM Subject: Re: OT: paging MAC expert(s) --- What's a Performa? > >Just because it isn't missing doesn't mean I can find it. Since I don't know > >what it really is, I'd probably not recognize it. Anyway, finder > >isn't what I'm > >after, it's the Apple System Profiler, which I'm persuaded isn't there in this > >version of the OS. surely there's some way to determine what hardware the > >machine thinks it "sees," though. > > A program that will give you more info than 'System Profiler' > is called TattleTech. Even the current beta still supports running > on System 7.X and a 68020 cpu. It can be had at: > > http://www.tattletech.com > > You should be able to download it, copy it to a PC-formatted > disk and be able to read the disk on the Mac. You'll need Stuffit > Expander on the Mac to unarchive it though. > > Jeff > -- > Home of the TRS-80 Model 2000 FAQ File > http://www.cchaven.com > http://www.geocities.com/siliconvalley/lakes/6757 > > From jhellige at earthlink.net Fri Nov 16 22:03:34 2001 From: jhellige at earthlink.net (Jeff Hellige) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:11:12 2005 Subject: OT: paging MAC expert(s) --- What's a Performa? In-Reply-To: <000701c16f18$a1924320$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> References: <200111170039.QAA09132@stockholm.ptloma.edu> <005701c16f11$44e6fb40$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> <000701c16f18$a1924320$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> Message-ID: Richard, I can email you a self extracting archive of the latest beta if you want. It's just over 500k and would be simpler than find a non-PPC version of Stuffit Expander. All you would have to do is copy the .SEA file to the Mac's desktop and then run it. Let me know. Jeff >I've downloaded TattleTech, but where, now, do I find the Stuffit Expander? > >regards, > >Dick > >----- Original Message ----- >From: "Jeff Hellige" >To: >Sent: Friday, November 16, 2001 8:17 PM >Subject: Re: OT: paging MAC expert(s) --- What's a Performa? > > >> >Just because it isn't missing doesn't mean I can find it. Since >>I don't know >> >what it really is, I'd probably not recognize it. Anyway, finder >> >isn't what I'm >> >after, it's the Apple System Profiler, which I'm persuaded isn't there in >this >> >version of the OS. surely there's some way to determine what hardware the >> >machine thinks it "sees," though. >> >> A program that will give you more info than 'System Profiler' >> is called TattleTech. Even the current beta still supports running >> on System 7.X and a 68020 cpu. It can be had at: >> >> http://www.tattletech.com >> >> You should be able to download it, copy it to a PC-formatted >> disk and be able to read the disk on the Mac. You'll need Stuffit >> Expander on the Mac to unarchive it though. >> >> Jeff >> -- >> Home of the TRS-80 Model 2000 FAQ File >> http://www.cchaven.com >> http://www.geocities.com/siliconvalley/lakes/6757 >> >> -- Home of the TRS-80 Model 2000 FAQ File http://www.cchaven.com http://www.geocities.com/siliconvalley/lakes/6757 From mhstein at usa.net Fri Nov 16 23:13:27 2001 From: mhstein at usa.net (M H Stein) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:11:12 2005 Subject: Surplus Legal Issues, was Re: Fw: Control Data Cyber 960 Message-ID: <01C16F00.529898E0@mse-d03> ----------Original Message------------ I was working for a small place many years ago that had recieved, by Government contractor error, a 'classified' piece of radio gear stuck in a truckload of other RF junk we bought. The Feds came storming in one afternoon with the swat team (I am *not* making this up!!) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Speaking of classified equipment among the junk, that reminds me of a story at: http://www.cultdeadcow.com/cDc_files/cDc-363/ Novel twist on the car-in-the-side-of-the-mountain urban legend; a little long, but I enjoyed it. mike From mhstein at usa.net Fri Nov 16 23:11:44 2001 From: mhstein at usa.net (M H Stein) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:11:12 2005 Subject: Control Data Cyber 960 rescue interest? Message-ID: <01C16F00.4EC4FBA0@mse-d03> Speaking of CDC, among the junk I'm cleaning out of my basement there's a partial backplane out of an old CDC something-or-other, connected to a panel with 2 AC outlets (Monitor & Data Set), a fuse and a DB25 for the Data Set. There's also an acoustic delay line and a large resistor/diode matrix board which I think came from the same piece. Maybe a 60's era terminal??? 3 rows of cards; the two top rows A & B have 25 slots for 4 1/2x6", double sided 31 edge connectors cards, some with 10 test points along the edge and each populated with one or two dozen gold 10 pin TO5 cans marked M (as in Motorola) 115, 116, 117, 118 with what I assume are date codes like 6624, 6644, and 6636. The bottom row, C, 32 slots, contains a few smaller cards with pin connectors that appear to be some kind of programming cards, just containing jumper wires. Anybody recognize these and maybe even have a use for a card or two, or can I throw them out without feeling guilty? mike From jss at subatomix.com Fri Nov 16 23:44:15 2001 From: jss at subatomix.com (Jeffrey S. Sharp) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:11:12 2005 Subject: OT: paging MAC expert(s) --- What's a Performa? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20011116234246.M14340-100000@lepton.subatomix.com> On Fri, 16 Nov 2001, Chris wrote: > When compared to Windows, the MacOS was AMAZINGLY fast, stable, and > compact. And cooperatively multitasked. Ewww. -- Jeffrey S. Sharp jss@subatomix.com From geoffr at zipcon.net Sat Nov 17 00:09:39 2001 From: geoffr at zipcon.net (Geoff Reed) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:11:12 2005 Subject: OT: paging MAC expert(s) --- What's a Performa? In-Reply-To: <004301c16ef8$0ae04820$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> References: <5.1.0.14.2.20011116143555.034d76c0@mail.zipcon.net> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20011116220743.041b8210@mail.zipcon.net> >There's a program (somewhere) called "FINDER," though I'm not convinced >it's for >the purpose of finding something. What I need to find out is how to find the >FINDER. Then, of course, I have to figure out how to drive it ... will >it ever end ... The Finder is the GUI part of the OS...... it's the graphical shell. to find out what sort of ram is in the machine, with only the desktop (finder) open click the apple on the screen (top left) keep the button down and select "about this macintosh" from the meny, it should pop up and tell you how much ram is in the machine, the usual amount on the 630CD's with the dos card is 24 or 32 MB ra,.... From vze2mnvr at verizon.net Sat Nov 17 00:47:03 2001 From: vze2mnvr at verizon.net (Ian Koller) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:11:12 2005 Subject: OT: Fear and helpfulness on classiccmp References: <20011116100925.Y13355-100000@lepton.subatomix.com> <3BF546F1.7060106@dragonsweb.org> <001901c16ecb$78d92e00$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> Message-ID: <3BF607E7.4EDE5BBC@verizon.net> Richard Erlacher wrote: > OOOH! I've heard Bubba is quite the tango instructor! Is that the "Last Tango In Paris" you're talking about? Richard Erlacher wrote: > > OOOH! I've heard Bubba is quite the tango instructor! > > Dick > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "James B. DiGriz" > To: > Sent: Friday, November 16, 2001 10:03 AM > Subject: Re: OT: Fear and helpfulness on classiccmp > > > Jeffrey S. Sharp wrote: > > > > > On Fri, 16 Nov 2001, James B. DiGriz wrote: > > > > > > > > >>Sometimes, even, it's more honorable to actually be a blatant outlaw > > >>or an honest thief. > > >> > > > > > > There is no honor in being pounded in the ass by someone called Bubba. I > > > recommend that we do only legal things regarding this CDC 960. > > > > > > -- > > > Jeffrey S. Sharp > > > jss@subatomix.com > > > > > > > > > > > > > Nobody is proposing anything else. If you want to say that maybe putting > > in a bid to remove the CDC properly with qualified personnel, as > > opposed to a slash-and-burn job, at an s&b price, and then bidding on > > the property out of the proceeds, is somehow criminal, kindly tell it to > > the goddamned GA. legislature, who passed the fucked-up bullshit law > > that makes it necessary. > > > > Let's leave Bubba out of this. He's a figment of somebody's imagination. > > A bogeyman conjured up by the scared-straight hellfire-and-damnation > > crowd who profess to believe that people won't be civilized unless > > they're beat or frightened into it. The ones who trot out the reformed > > ex-cons to terrorize the sunday schoolers with. In actual practice, real > > people who try to be Bubbas get seriously dead real quick. > > > > How bout we terminate this line of discussion? It's a nice day out, it's > > Friday, and I've been behind this keyboard too long. > > > > Ya'll have a nice weekend, > > jbdigriz > > > > From quapla at xs4all.nl Sat Nov 17 05:21:21 2001 From: quapla at xs4all.nl (The Wanderer) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:11:12 2005 Subject: Votrax References: <200111091605.LAA23226@wordstock.com> <4.3.2.7.2.20011109135349.00ad2100@pop3.norton.antivirus> <006901c16956$aa8f3360$030101ac@boll.casema.net> <10111100033.ZM6646@mindy.dunnington.u-net.com> Message-ID: <3BF64831.AF571FE9@xs4all.nl> I recently aquired a Votrax speech system, but there was no manual with it. Is there somebody who can supply me with a (photocopy or pdf file) of the manual? Postage will be paid for. Thanks, Ed -- The Wanderer | Politici zijn gore oplichters. quapla@xs4all.nl | Europarlementariers: zakkenvullers http://www.xs4all.nl/~quapla | en neuspeuteraars. Unix Lives! M$ Windows is rommel! | Kilometerheffing : De overheid '97 TL1000S | weet waar je bent geweest! From jbdigriz at dragonsweb.org Sat Nov 17 07:46:02 2001 From: jbdigriz at dragonsweb.org (James B. DiGriz) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:11:12 2005 Subject: OT: Fear and helpfulness on classiccmp References: <20011116100925.Y13355-100000@lepton.subatomix.com> <3BF546F1.7060106@dragonsweb.org> <001901c16ecb$78d92e00$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> <3BF607E7.4EDE5BBC@verizon.net> Message-ID: <3BF66A1A.5060506@dragonsweb.org> Ian Koller wrote: > Richard Erlacher wrote: > >>OOOH! I've heard Bubba is quite the tango instructor! >> > > > Is that the "Last Tango In Paris" you're talking about? > > Here, let me help you. This where you're supposed to make some wisecrack about "Dueling Banjos", and then all sorts of lights start going off in your head as you consider all the things that Dickey (James, not Erlacher) was saying. Or you could run with bikers for a while. (Anyone got parts for an '81 Virago 750? Yeah, yeah, I know...) We can whistle past the graveyard all you want here, but I suggest it's time to move on. glad to be of assistance, jbdigriz From celt at chisp.net Sat Nov 17 09:30:19 2001 From: celt at chisp.net (Michael Maginnis) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:11:12 2005 Subject: OT: paging MAC expert(s) --- What's a Performa? References: <200111170039.QAA09132@stockholm.ptloma.edu> <005701c16f11$44e6fb40$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> <000701c16f18$a1924320$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> Message-ID: <3BF6828B.3070106@chisp.net> http://www.aladdinsys.com/ Richard Erlacher wrote: > I've downloaded TattleTech, but where, now, do I find the Stuffit Expander? > > regards, > > Dick > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Jeff Hellige" > To: > Sent: Friday, November 16, 2001 8:17 PM > Subject: Re: OT: paging MAC expert(s) --- What's a Performa? > > > From jhellige at earthlink.net Sat Nov 17 11:01:13 2001 From: jhellige at earthlink.net (Jeff Hellige) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:11:12 2005 Subject: OT: paging MAC expert(s) --- What's a Performa? In-Reply-To: <3BF6828B.3070106@chisp.net> References: <200111170039.QAA09132@stockholm.ptloma.edu> <005701c16f11$44e6fb40$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> <000701c16f18$a1924320$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> <3BF6828B.3070106@chisp.net> Message-ID: He'd have to make sure he got an older version that supported the 68k Mac's though, as the current versions are PPC-only and require at least OS 8.1. I believe I have a 68k version here on an old Earthlink software CD. That version will work on a 68k Mac with OS 7.0 or above. Jeff >http://www.aladdinsys.com/ > >Richard Erlacher wrote: > >>I've downloaded TattleTech, but where, now, do I find the Stuffit Expander? >> >>regards, >> >>Dick >> >>----- Original Message ----- >>From: "Jeff Hellige" >>To: >>Sent: Friday, November 16, 2001 8:17 PM >>Subject: Re: OT: paging MAC expert(s) --- What's a Performa? >> >> > > > -- Home of the TRS-80 Model 2000 FAQ File http://www.cchaven.com http://www.geocities.com/siliconvalley/lakes/6757 From foo at siconic.com Sat Nov 17 11:46:31 2001 From: foo at siconic.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:11:12 2005 Subject: OT: paging MAC expert(s) --- What's a Performa? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Fri, 16 Nov 2001, Jeff Hellige wrote: > Actually the IIgs, unless my timeline is wrong, was released in > Sept. 1987 while both the Mac II and SE were released in March 1987. > I had forgotten that the II was released at the same time though and > also used ADB. Wasn't the IIgs released in 1986? I'm too lazy to search the web right about now, but I'm almost positive it was. Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org From spectre at stockholm.ptloma.edu Sat Nov 17 11:59:35 2001 From: spectre at stockholm.ptloma.edu (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:11:12 2005 Subject: OT: paging MAC expert(s) --- What's a Performa? In-Reply-To: from Jeff Hellige at "Nov 17, 1 12:01:13 pm" Message-ID: <200111171759.JAA11106@stockholm.ptloma.edu> > He'd have to make sure he got an older version that supported > the 68k Mac's though, as the current versions are PPC-only and > require at least OS 8.1. I believe I have a 68k version here on an > old Earthlink software CD. That version will work on a 68k Mac with > OS 7.0 or above. I've used 5.5 without difficulty on my 7.1 stable. -- ----------------------------- personal page: http://www.armory.com/~spectre/ -- Cameron Kaiser, Point Loma Nazarene University * ckaiser@stockholm.ptloma.edu -- In memory of Werner Klemperer ---------------------------------------------- From spectre at stockholm.ptloma.edu Sat Nov 17 12:15:35 2001 From: spectre at stockholm.ptloma.edu (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:11:12 2005 Subject: Votrax In-Reply-To: <3BF64831.AF571FE9@xs4all.nl> from The Wanderer at "Nov 17, 1 12:21:21 pm" Message-ID: <200111171815.KAA11120@stockholm.ptloma.edu> > I recently aquired a Votrax speech system, but there was no manual with it. IIRC, you just open up a 300 bps connection to it, and send data as ASCII for it to speak. There was an ad for the Votrax which had a Commodore 64 program on the 'screen' driving it, and I think that's all there was to it. -- ----------------------------- personal page: http://www.armory.com/~spectre/ -- Cameron Kaiser, Point Loma Nazarene University * ckaiser@stockholm.ptloma.edu -- Got Mole problems? Call Avogadro at 6.02 x 10^23. -------------------------- From edick at idcomm.com Sat Nov 17 12:13:51 2001 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:11:12 2005 Subject: OT: paging MAC expert(s) --- What's a Performa? References: <200111171759.JAA11106@stockholm.ptloma.edu> Message-ID: <000d01c16f93$9db75d00$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> Right now, I'm pretty concerned about how to crack open the box without breaking it, so I can inspect the hard disk to see what it is, physically. Does anybody have a recipe for doing that? Moreover, I imagine I'll use one of the considerably larger IDE types I've set aside from PC use to replace the drives now in the machines. It's safe to assume, however, that NOT any IDE drive will work, since Apple Computers, Inc. didn't like folks buying hardware at a resonable price from someone else rather than allowing Apple to gouge them. (part of the MAC culture, I guess) I note, also, that the CDROM is SCSI. That being the case, I'd like to see whether there's room for a SCSI HDD in the box. There certainly is room in the system (logically). That would work even better, since I have lots of extra SCSI drives. Have any of you MAC gurus got experience with replacing MAC IDE drives? It looks as though the drives in the boxes are 250 MB or so, which might be adequate for some things, but I doubt it would be adequate for internet activity. Dick ----- Original Message ----- From: "Cameron Kaiser" To: Sent: Saturday, November 17, 2001 10:59 AM Subject: Re: OT: paging MAC expert(s) --- What's a Performa? > > He'd have to make sure he got an older version that supported > > the 68k Mac's though, as the current versions are PPC-only and > > require at least OS 8.1. I believe I have a 68k version here on an > > old Earthlink software CD. That version will work on a 68k Mac with > > OS 7.0 or above. > > I've used 5.5 without difficulty on my 7.1 stable. > > -- > ----------------------------- personal page: http://www.armory.com/~spectre/ -- > Cameron Kaiser, Point Loma Nazarene University * ckaiser@stockholm.ptloma.edu > -- In memory of Werner Klemperer ---------------------------------------------- > > From lgwalker at mts.net Sat Nov 17 12:11:21 2001 From: lgwalker at mts.net (Lawrence Walker) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:11:12 2005 Subject: OT: paging MAC expert(s) --- What's a Performa? In-Reply-To: References: <001f01c16f0e$c931e480$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> Message-ID: <3BF653E9.16827.36E64552@localhost> System 7.55 at least has it. Can't remember whether I had it on earlier versions or not. Lawrence > >That's what I figured, too, but didn't turn out to be the case. > > Ahhhh...it still has System 7.X on it, which makes sense. I > don't believe 'System Profiler' showed up until System 8.0 or 8.1. I > know it's included in 8.1, as that is what I run on my PB 5300c, but > I don't recall if it is in 7.5.X or not. > > Jeff > -- > Home of the TRS-80 Model 2000 FAQ File > http://www.cchaven.com > http://www.geocities.com/siliconvalley/lakes/6757 > Reply to: lgwalker@mts.net From spectre at stockholm.ptloma.edu Sat Nov 17 12:22:50 2001 From: spectre at stockholm.ptloma.edu (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:11:12 2005 Subject: OT: paging MAC expert(s) --- What's a Performa? In-Reply-To: <20011116234246.M14340-100000@lepton.subatomix.com> from "Jeffrey S. Sharp" at "Nov 16, 1 11:44:15 pm" Message-ID: <200111171822.KAA09894@stockholm.ptloma.edu> > > When compared to Windows, the MacOS was AMAZINGLY fast, stable, and > > compact. > > And cooperatively multitasked. Ewww. This is truly its greatest fault, yes. Do note, though, that one advantage of having less software available means less shovelware. Despite being non- preemptive, classic MacOS crashes much less because the software Macs run is generally better quality. We don't have everybody and his brother writing crap that crashes the machine, though we don't have all the good stuff either. Of course, with OS X.1 now available, this critique too is no longer valid. -- ----------------------------- personal page: http://www.armory.com/~spectre/ -- Cameron Kaiser, Point Loma Nazarene University * ckaiser@stockholm.ptloma.edu -- Nothing recedes like success. -- Walter Winchell --------------------------- From chris at mainecoon.com Sat Nov 17 12:29:36 2001 From: chris at mainecoon.com (Chris Kennedy) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:11:12 2005 Subject: Votrax In-Reply-To: <200111171815.KAA11120@stockholm.ptloma.edu> Message-ID: Cameron Kaiser wrote: > IIRC, you just open up a 300 bps connection to it, and send data as ASCII for > it to speak. There was an ad for the Votrax which had a Commodore 64 program > on the 'screen' driving it, and I think that's all there was to it. That certainly wasn't the case with the first Votrax I came across; you sent it a byte stream that represented the phonemes to be voiced... -- Chris Kennedy chris@mainecoon.com http://www.mainecoon.com PGP fingerprint: 4E99 10B6 7253 B048 6685 6CBC 55E1 20A3 108D AB97 From jhellige at earthlink.net Sat Nov 17 12:32:04 2001 From: jhellige at earthlink.net (Jeff Hellige) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:11:12 2005 Subject: OT: paging MAC expert(s) --- What's a Performa? In-Reply-To: <200111171759.JAA11106@stockholm.ptloma.edu> References: <200111171759.JAA11106@stockholm.ptloma.edu> Message-ID: > > He'd have to make sure he got an older version that supported >> the 68k Mac's though, as the current versions are PPC-only and >> require at least OS 8.1. I believe I have a 68k version here on an >> old Earthlink software CD. That version will work on a 68k Mac with >> OS 7.0 or above. > >I've used 5.5 without difficulty on my 7.1 stable. According to Aladin's download page, 5.5 is the last version that supports the 68k processor and System 7.1. I checked the Earthlink software CD (from 1999, which includes software for both PPC and 68k Mac's) and it included version 4.01. It's a good source for the older internet software for 68k Mac's though, with Netscape 3, OT 1.1.1 and everything else needed to get online. Jeff -- Home of the TRS-80 Model 2000 FAQ File http://www.cchaven.com http://www.geocities.com/siliconvalley/lakes/6757 From jrasite at eoni.com Sat Nov 17 12:42:12 2001 From: jrasite at eoni.com (Jim Arnott) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:11:12 2005 Subject: OT: paging MAC expert(s) --- What's a Performa? References: <200111171759.JAA11106@stockholm.ptloma.edu> <000d01c16f93$9db75d00$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> Message-ID: <3BF6AF3F.52850B0B@eoni.com> I can send you the service manual. Contact off list. Jim Richard Erlacher wrote: > > Right now, I'm pretty concerned about how to crack open the box without breaking > it, so I can inspect the hard disk to see what it is, physically. Does anybody > have a recipe for doing that? > From MTPro at aol.com Sat Nov 17 12:47:55 2001 From: MTPro at aol.com (MTPro@aol.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:11:12 2005 Subject: History of Computing CD Message-ID: <36.1eda9e9a.29280adb@aol.com> Hello, I have one copy of this CD left, it's new and the most current version. Anyone like to buy it? The "History of Computing: An Encyclopedia of the People and Machines that Made Computer History," a CD ROM based reference containing over 1,000 PHOTOS of early machines and technologies. (Win 95/98/NT & Win 2000, and above, compatible) Sells for $19.95 at amazon.com, see: http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0944601782/qid=1002987031/sr=8-2/ref=sr _8_7_2/002-0016231-5469635 Only $10 plus shipping! Best, David David Greelish Classic Computing www.classiccomputing.com "classiccomputing" on eBay From cmcmanis at mcmanis.com Sat Nov 17 12:53:30 2001 From: cmcmanis at mcmanis.com (Chuck McManis) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:11:12 2005 Subject: Votrax In-Reply-To: <200111171815.KAA11120@stockholm.ptloma.edu> References: <3BF64831.AF571FE9@xs4all.nl> Message-ID: <5.0.0.25.2.20011117105251.024b68a0@209.185.79.193> At 10:15 AM 11/17/01 -0800, you wrote: >IIRC, you just open up a 300 bps connection to it, and send data as ASCII for >it to speak. There was an ad for the Votrax which had a Commodore 64 program >on the 'screen' driving it, and I think that's all there was to it. Depends on if it is just the allophone generator or both the allophone/text to speech processor. --Chuck From jhellige at earthlink.net Sat Nov 17 12:53:14 2001 From: jhellige at earthlink.net (Jeff Hellige) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:11:12 2005 Subject: OT: paging MAC expert(s) --- What's a Performa? In-Reply-To: <000d01c16f93$9db75d00$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> References: <200111171759.JAA11106@stockholm.ptloma.edu> <000d01c16f93$9db75d00$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> Message-ID: >Right now, I'm pretty concerned about how to crack open the box >without breaking >it, so I can inspect the hard disk to see what it is, physically. >Does anybody >have a recipe for doing that? Most Mac's, other than the earlier compact ones, are pretty easy to open. Some don't even have screws holding the case lid on, just pull tabs at the back of the lid. Others, such as the II series, have little tabs that must be pushed in while lifting on the lid. >Moreover, I imagine I'll use one of the considerably larger IDE types I've set >aside from PC use to replace the drives now in the machines. It's safe to >assume, however, that NOT any IDE drive will work, since Apple Computers, Inc. >didn't like folks buying hardware at a resonable price from someone >else rather >than allowing Apple to gouge them. (part of the MAC culture, I >guess) I note, >also, that the CDROM is SCSI. That being the case, I'd like to see whether >there's room for a SCSI HDD in the box. There certainly is room in the system >(logically). That would work even better, since I have lots of extra SCSI >drives. Have any of you MAC gurus got experience with replacing MAC >IDE drives? The problems with using hard disks other than those provided by Apple is pretty much limited to SCSI drives. I've never had a problem with popping a 3rd party IDE drive into one. Unfortunately, this also applies to SCSI CD-ROM's, though there are ways around that for using 3rd party CD's as well. If your 630 already has an internal CD-ROM it is likely to be an Apple drive anyway, so you wouldn't have to worry about this. I'd personally stick with the IDE hard disks so as to avoid the inability of formatting 3rd party SCSI drives. >It looks as though the drives in the boxes are 250 MB or so, which might be >adequate for some things, but I doubt it would be adequate for internet >activity. Depends on what you're going to use. Netscape 3 is pretty much as high as I'd go on that old of a machine, though versions up to about 4.08 are usable on non-PPC Mac's. For light use, using System 7.5.5 (which is available freely on the 'net), 250 MB isn't bad. System 7.5.5, as has already been pointed out, is less RAM hungry than 8.1 and it also takes up less disk space. That's what I'd stick with on a 68k Mac. Jeff -- Home of the TRS-80 Model 2000 FAQ File http://www.cchaven.com http://www.geocities.com/siliconvalley/lakes/6757 From jrice at texoma.net Sat Nov 17 13:22:24 2001 From: jrice at texoma.net (James L. Rice) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:11:12 2005 Subject: OT: paging MAC expert(s) --- What's a Performa? References: <200111171759.JAA11106@stockholm.ptloma.edu> Message-ID: <3BF6B8F0.5070505@texoma.net> I'm using System 7.6.1 on my 631CD. I chose 7.6 because it seemed to work better within my NT newwork and with Microsoft Services for Macintosh on the NT servers. My Stuffit version is 5.5. James http://home.texoma.net/~jrice Cameron Kaiser wrote: >> He'd have to make sure he got an older version that supported >>the 68k Mac's though, as the current versions are PPC-only and >>require at least OS 8.1. I believe I have a 68k version here on an >>old Earthlink software CD. That version will work on a 68k Mac with >>OS 7.0 or above. >> > >I've used 5.5 without difficulty on my 7.1 stable. > From edick at idcomm.com Sat Nov 17 13:58:23 2001 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:11:12 2005 Subject: OT: paging MAC expert(s) --- What's a Performa? References: <200111171822.KAA09894@stockholm.ptloma.edu> Message-ID: <001101c16fa2$370a6de0$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> I have some doubts about that multitasking ... the system seems to go away for 5 - 30 minutes, depending on what it's doing, and won't allow any mouse or keyboard activity to interrupt what it's doing, which is a mystery. It does come back eventually, though I've not checked it extensively. This sort of event happens on both boxes, so I doubt it's broken hardware. Not to create an issue, but under Windows, that doesn't often happen, though it's possible, I guess. What could be going on? Dick ----- Original Message ----- From: "Cameron Kaiser" To: Sent: Saturday, November 17, 2001 11:22 AM Subject: Re: OT: paging MAC expert(s) --- What's a Performa? > > > When compared to Windows, the MacOS was AMAZINGLY fast, stable, and > > > compact. > > > > And cooperatively multitasked. Ewww. > > This is truly its greatest fault, yes. Do note, though, that one advantage of > having less software available means less shovelware. Despite being non- > preemptive, classic MacOS crashes much less because the software Macs run > is generally better quality. We don't have everybody and his brother writing > crap that crashes the machine, though we don't have all the good stuff either. > > Of course, with OS X.1 now available, this critique too is no longer valid. > > -- > ----------------------------- personal page: http://www.armory.com/~spectre/ -- > Cameron Kaiser, Point Loma Nazarene University * ckaiser@stockholm.ptloma.edu > -- Nothing recedes like success. -- Walter Winchell --------------------------- > > From edick at idcomm.com Sat Nov 17 14:05:53 2001 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:11:12 2005 Subject: OT: paging MAC expert(s) --- What's a Performa? References: <200111171759.JAA11106@stockholm.ptloma.edu> <000d01c16f93$9db75d00$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> Message-ID: <002901c16fa3$4342fae0$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> I'm acquainted with the tabs on the back of the "pizza-box" MAC's, but this isn't one of them. The tabs on the back allow removal of a small plastic cover that conceals the handle by means of which the PC board is extracted. It's apparently a pretty well-thought-out packaging job, unlike most PC's, but I haven't a clue how to get into the box itself to do things to the drives, etc. Now, maybe it's not necessary or even advisable to increase the hard disk size, but, since I have them available I'd do it if there's significant benefit involved. Dick ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jeff Hellige" To: Sent: Saturday, November 17, 2001 11:53 AM Subject: Re: OT: paging MAC expert(s) --- What's a Performa? > >Right now, I'm pretty concerned about how to crack open the box > >without breaking > >it, so I can inspect the hard disk to see what it is, physically. > >Does anybody > >have a recipe for doing that? > > Most Mac's, other than the earlier compact ones, are pretty > easy to open. Some don't even have screws holding the case lid on, > just pull tabs at the back of the lid. Others, such as the II > series, have little tabs that must be pushed in while lifting on the > lid. > > >Moreover, I imagine I'll use one of the considerably larger IDE types I've set > >aside from PC use to replace the drives now in the machines. It's safe to > >assume, however, that NOT any IDE drive will work, since Apple Computers, Inc. > >didn't like folks buying hardware at a resonable price from someone > >else rather > >than allowing Apple to gouge them. (part of the MAC culture, I > >guess) I note, > >also, that the CDROM is SCSI. That being the case, I'd like to see whether > >there's room for a SCSI HDD in the box. There certainly is room in the system > >(logically). That would work even better, since I have lots of extra SCSI > >drives. Have any of you MAC gurus got experience with replacing MAC > >IDE drives? > > The problems with using hard disks other than those provided > by Apple is pretty much limited to SCSI drives. I've never had a > problem with popping a 3rd party IDE drive into one. Unfortunately, > this also applies to SCSI CD-ROM's, though there are ways around that > for using 3rd party CD's as well. If your 630 already has an > internal CD-ROM it is likely to be an Apple drive anyway, so you > wouldn't have to worry about this. I'd personally stick with the IDE > hard disks so as to avoid the inability of formatting 3rd party SCSI > drives. > > >It looks as though the drives in the boxes are 250 MB or so, which might be > >adequate for some things, but I doubt it would be adequate for internet > >activity. > > Depends on what you're going to use. Netscape 3 is pretty > much as high as I'd go on that old of a machine, though versions up > to about 4.08 are usable on non-PPC Mac's. For light use, using > System 7.5.5 (which is available freely on the 'net), 250 MB isn't > bad. System 7.5.5, as has already been pointed out, is less RAM > hungry than 8.1 and it also takes up less disk space. That's what > I'd stick with on a 68k Mac. > > Jeff > -- > Home of the TRS-80 Model 2000 FAQ File > http://www.cchaven.com > http://www.geocities.com/siliconvalley/lakes/6757 > > From kyrrin at bluefeathertech.com Sat Nov 17 14:31:54 2001 From: kyrrin at bluefeathertech.com (Bruce Lane) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:11:12 2005 Subject: AVAILABLE: 9-track SCSI-SE tri-density tape drives Message-ID: <200111171231540717.07F9BD9B@192.168.42.129> (Cross-posted to: classiccmp, and the port-sparc and port-vax lists at NetBSD.org) NOTE: LOCAL PICKUP ONLY EXCEPT BY SPECIAL ARRANGEMENT: I'm sorry, but these are too big and bulky for me to easily ship unless you want to pay $150 for a special box plus the freight charges. Pickup location is Kent, Washington (southeast of Seattle). -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- Hi, folks, Due to shifting interests, and a massive cleanup, I'm getting rid of two 9-track SCSI interface tape drives. Both are multi-density, both are standard single-ended SCSI interface, no oddball connectors, and I'd like to ask for $100 OR BEST OFFER on each one. Here's the specific details. HP 88780: Handles 800, 1600, and 6250 density tapes. Front-loading/autoloading, rackmount, and in pretty darn good shape. Originally badged as a Sun drive, and I seem to recall that it ID's as a Sun device. However, it worked just fine with standard SCSI hardware. Includes rack slides, functional when last turned on a few months back. M4 Data Model 9914R (rackmount). Handles all four known densities: 800, 1600, 3200, and 6250. Also front-load/autoload, also in great shape. I can probably come up with a set of rack slides for it as well. Somewhat lighter than the HP in physical terms, and it can be easily converted to a Pertec interface by removing the SCSI interface board and changing one parameter in the NVRAM setup. Thanks much for putting up with my blatant ad. ;-) -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- Bruce Lane, Owner & Head Hardware Heavy, Blue Feather Technologies -- http://www.bluefeathertech.com ARS KC7GR (Formerly WD6EOS) since 12-77 -- kyrrin@bluefeathertech.com "I'll get a life when someone demonstrates that it would be superior to what I have now..." (Taki Kogoma, aka Gym Z. Quirk) From sieler at allegro.com Sat Nov 17 14:47:30 2001 From: sieler at allegro.com (Stan Sieler) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:11:12 2005 Subject: HP 3000 No More In-Reply-To: <001501c16d8b$aeb3df70$0101a8c0@sympatico.ca> Message-ID: <3BF65C62.29765.942B49C@localhost> Re: Mike Kenzie writes: > Especially since we were supposed to be migrating our system from a > IBM 390 to the HP3000. > I guess a year of planning and vendor selection is out the window. So? What was the projected lifespan of the 3000 you were going to migrate to? 5 years? 7? Then *go ahead*...any 3000 you get today will run that long, no problem ... and it will do it better and cheaper and more reliably than many other choices. OTOH, if you were choosing a platform that would be around for 10+ years, well ... I don't think any vendor has made that kind of promise! (Indeed, how many have promised *as of today* that their platform *will* be here in 5 years? HP has with the 3000 :) However, with that kind of initial condition, I think there are only two choices: Linux and Windows. I wouldn't want to bet on the various other Unix-like vendors to survive 10+ years. (Oh, I think most will, although probably not HP-UX or SGI's OS, but...do I want to bet on it?) Stan Sieler sieler@allegro.com www.allegro.com/sieler/wanted/index.html www.allegro.com/sieler From sieler at allegro.com Sat Nov 17 14:50:26 2001 From: sieler at allegro.com (Stan Sieler) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:11:12 2005 Subject: HP 3000 No More (legacy) In-Reply-To: <200111150439.UAA04848@stockholm.ptloma.edu> References: <001501c16d8b$aeb3df70$0101a8c0@sympatico.ca> Message-ID: <3BF65D12.12708.94562BD@localhost> Re: > > You're forgetting that PA-RISC is also in the same position. It's > > called "legacy", isn't it? > > Feh. We have two PA-RISC boxen in the server room. I'm sure the IT > director would be very upset if that happened, considering they're barely > three years old at the most. PA-RISC is dead/dying ... HP has said so. IA-64 killed it. Yes, we know that some new systems (for HP 9000 *and* HP 3000) are coming out in the next couple of years. Some will be based on their high-end PA-RISC 8800 "chip" (two 8700 CPUs on a single die, with a big cache), but...that's it, there's nothing in the pipeline after a few years from now. (Indeed, PA-RISC was originally scheduled to be dead by now, but it had to be extended due to the lateness of IA-64.) Do I like this? Nope. But, it's as much "legacy" as Z80, 68000, and (probably) all x86 chips. Stan Sieler sieler@allegro.com www.allegro.com/sieler/wanted/index.html www.allegro.com/sieler From rhblakeman at kih.net Sat Nov 17 15:04:44 2001 From: rhblakeman at kih.net (Russ Blakeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:11:12 2005 Subject: In search of...5.25" faceplate & mount for WangDAT 3100 or 3200 Message-ID: I figure with the "stuff" people in this group latch onto someone might have one of these. I presently have a WangDAT 3200 (2/4gb DDS1 tape) drive with the narrow faceplate and I want to put it into the external SCSI case I have now with my other 3200. Problem being that it's the 3.5" mount and that it won't really go into a 5.25 to 3.5" adapter as it's as tall as a 5.25" half height drive desoite it being only 3.5" wide. That basically makes it 1.5x as tall as a normal 3.5" floppy drive - no go for a regular adapter. Both Mountain and WangDAT made an adapter for 5.25" for these 2 drives specifically consisting of a 5.25" faceplate and two 3.5" to 5.25" side brackets (about the same as a standard adapter has). If anyone has a JUNK 3100 or 3200 drive around they want to get rid of, parts or left overs from one or even a spare good drive (3100 or 3200) they want to sell cjeap then drop me a direct note or on the list. I will contact you direct. If you have a drive with the 5.25" face and want to swap to the smaller 3.5" then that works too as I have an extra 3.5" faceplate I can mail out in advance. Thanks in advance. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20011117/61f81660/attachment-0001.html From vze2mnvr at verizon.net Sat Nov 17 15:04:28 2001 From: vze2mnvr at verizon.net (Ian Koller) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:11:12 2005 Subject: Cable and connector source References: Message-ID: <3BF6D0DC.173CA6B3@verizon.net> Tony Duell wrote: > Unfortunately, HP calculators take considerably more power than this > little Texet, so I've not managed to run one of those of an apple :-( Create an array with more of them in parallel? Tony Duell wrote: > > > > > At 12:23 AM 11/16/2001 +0000, Tony wrote: > > >If you want to know why I did this, think about : > > >1) Who do you associate with apples (the fruit, not the computer) > > >2) When was he born > > >3) Some of us celebrate his birthday rather than another event (possibly > > >birthday-related) on the same date :-). > > > > My first guess was Alan Mathison Turing, born 23 June 1912, > > who died due to cyanide contamination on an apple he was eating. > > Interesting guess. No, not this time, though... > > > > > Newton's Day is December 25, the date of his birth in 1642. > > Exactly... :-) > > The reason for the calculator run off the apple is that HPCC (UK HP > calculator club, and a general meeting place of eccentrics :-)) has > decided to do things associated with Newton (anything even remotely > associated with Newton) this year. Running a calculator off an apple > seemed somewhat appropriate. > > Unfortunately, HP calculators take considerably more power than this > little Texet, so I've not managed to run one of those of an apple :-( > > -tony From sieler at allegro.com Sat Nov 17 15:04:55 2001 From: sieler at allegro.com (Stan Sieler) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:11:12 2005 Subject: HP 3000 No More In-Reply-To: <3BB85F7D00002DE0@obregon.multi.net.co> References: <3BF3D6EF.F3A8BB28@ecubics.com> Message-ID: <3BF66077.12344.952A76E@localhost> Re: > See my earlier post about how they started back in '73; 1972, but the actual "start" date is hard to pin down. Was it first introduction, or the re-introduction (after it was pulled off the market)? I have an "Alpha External Reference Specification" on my desk at the moment ... it's not mine :( ... and it's dated 1971-09-22. (It's the "instruction set" manual for the HP 3000.) > 16 bit, virtual mem, multi-cpu capable, hardware stack for fast The 16-bit HP 3000 was never multi-CPU. The HP 3000 Series III, introduced in 1978, *did* have one instruction that was intended to support having a second CPU, but nothing was ever done with it. The multiple-CPU support came with the PA-RISC system, with release MPE XL 3.0 > context switching; very oriented towards time sharing. Now MPE > runs on PA-RISC; I don't know what the architecture of > HP3000 was in the 80's and until they started to use > PA-RISC. Does anybody know when it became 32bit? November, 1986, was the first customer shipment of any PA-RISC based computer, the HP 9000/840. It was followed very quickly (a month?) by the HP 3000/930 (same hardware), and shortly by the HP 3000/950 and then the same-hardware HP 9000/850. The 9000/840 & 3000/930 had a clock speed of 8 MHz. The 9000/850 & 3000/950 had a clock speed of about 13.7 MHz. Stan Sieler sieler@allegro.com www.allegro.com/sieler/wanted/index.html www.allegro.com/sieler From sieler at allegro.com Sat Nov 17 15:05:17 2001 From: sieler at allegro.com (Stan Sieler) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:11:13 2005 Subject: HP 3000 No More (now HP2000 thread) In-Reply-To: <004301c16cf8$9e2ca620$0101a8c0@jay> Message-ID: <3BF6608D.31766.952FE2F@localhost> Re: > 2) Someone mentioned to me privately about an emulator for the 3000, > thinking it might be hard. It's probably not that hard for the 3000. I am It's not hard to emulate the PA-RISC instruction set. However, to run *MPE*, you'd have to: - worry about the PDC (Processor Dependent Code, aka firmware) ... can you get a license for it, or are you going to invite the litigious lawyers (ok, redundant) of HP to visit you? - worry about an MPE license (which has never been sold/licensed separate from the CPU), or ...? That's why a lot of people (including users and vendors) are asking HP to open source MPE. However, as long as HP thinks they can move HP 3000 users to HP-UX, you can bet that the open source movement won't get anywhere. > 3) The story I'm getting from HP on the 3000 migration path, is Unix Unix > Unix. However, since I seem to be one of the few on the list who really Then you misheard. It's really HP-UX, HP-UX, and then HP-UX :) Stan Sieler sieler@allegro.com www.allegro.com/sieler/wanted/index.html www.allegro.com/sieler From mcguire at neurotica.com Sat Nov 17 15:51:09 2001 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:11:13 2005 Subject: HP 3000 No More (legacy) In-Reply-To: Re: HP 3000 No More (legacy) (Stan Sieler) References: <001501c16d8b$aeb3df70$0101a8c0@sympatico.ca> <3BF65D12.12708.94562BD@localhost> Message-ID: <15350.56269.182486.271813@phaduka.neurotica.com> On November 17, Stan Sieler wrote: > PA-RISC is dead/dying ... HP has said so. IA-64 killed it. [knee-jerk reaction to a pet peeve follows] Well, as long as "dead" can be defined as "salespeople don't want to sell you a new one". For me, it can't. I can pick up the phone and buy PDP8 equipment from a commercial vendor. How long ago was THAT architecture discontinued? For me, something is "dead" (or "obsolete" or whatever you want to call it) when it can no longer do its job adequately and cost-effectively. When Ford or Chevrolet discontinue a model of a car, does every owner of that model of car go throw them away and buy brand new cars? This industry is absurd, and its practices and philosophies are repulsive at best. I wish I didn't like computers so much. *grumble* > (Indeed, PA-RISC was originally scheduled to be dead by now, but it had to > be extended due to the lateness of IA-64.) > > Do I like this? Nope. But, it's as much "legacy" as Z80, 68000, and > (probably) all x86 chips. ...all of which can be bought new today, and are being built into systems (though not mainstream suits-doing-powerpoint-presentations type of systems, but is that really what this crowd cares about?) every day. "something new came out" != "this is now useless". Now, Stan...I apologize if it seems as if I'm jumping down your throat with this, and believe me I do get the impression that I'm precahing to the choir. But I also believe that the vast majority of the folks here understand that computers don't stop processing data when the manufacturer no longer wants to sell new ones of the same type. This group is likely the most enlightened of any on this subject. So why go along with it? Respectfully, -Dave McGuire -- Dave McGuire St. Petersburg, FL From fmc at reanimators.org Sat Nov 17 16:09:02 2001 From: fmc at reanimators.org (Frank McConnell) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:11:13 2005 Subject: HP 3000 No More In-Reply-To: "Stan Sieler"'s message of "Sat, 17 Nov 2001 13:04:55 -0800" References: <3BF3D6EF.F3A8BB28@ecubics.com> <3BF66077.12344.952A76E@localhost> Message-ID: <200111172209.fAHM9T323715@daemonweed.reanimators.org> "Stan Sieler" wrote: > Re: > > See my earlier post about how they started back in '73; > > 1972, but the actual "start" date is hard to pin down. Was it first > introduction, or the re-introduction (after it was pulled off the market)? Development of Alpha started in 1968 and ran concurrently (if somewhat on a back burner, because everybody thought the 32-bit Omega was a more exciting project) w/r/t Omega until Omega's cancellation in 1970. November 1972 is when the first systems (called HP 3000) were shipped to customers. The re-release (which was somewhat improved hardware and software and also called HP 3000 initially, but later came to be called the Series I) was in October 1973. (Reference for the above: Christopher Edler's "The Strongest Castle" paper) > The 16-bit HP 3000 was never multi-CPU. The HP 3000 Series III, introduced > in 1978, *did* have one instruction that was intended to support > having a second CPU, but nothing was ever done with it. The multiple-CPU > support came with the PA-RISC system, with release MPE XL 3.0 Somebody had ideas about it being a dual-CPU shared-memory system early on. Looking at the HP3000 Computer System Reference Manual from September 1973, I see that locations %10-%13 were reserved for the second processor's current PCB pointer, QI, ZI, and interrupt count. The Series II added two instructions: LOCK and UNLK, which were used to provide a sort of in-memory semaphore. I'm not sure they were present in the Series III. The Machine Instruction Set manuals I have handy have them footnoted with "Series II computer systems only". What I don't know is whether MPE ever had dual-CPU support. If it didn't, I wonder how they worked out that having an in-memory semaphore would be a good idea. -Frank McConnell From mythtech at Mac.com Sat Nov 17 16:30:24 2001 From: mythtech at Mac.com (Chris) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:11:13 2005 Subject: OT: paging MAC expert(s) --- What's a Performa? Message-ID: <200111172230.QAA74349@opal.tseinc.com> >Right now, I'm pretty concerned about how to crack open the box without >breaking >it, so I can inspect the hard disk to see what it is, physically. Does >anybody >have a recipe for doing that? This is going off memory of upgrading a 6360 (same case design)... if you want exact, I can email again on Monday when I am in front of a 630. To remove the logic board: On the back, there are two plastic tabs, push them lightly, remove the plastic face plate. Remove the two screws on either side under the face plate. Pull on the handle, the board will slide out. To remove drives: Flip the unit over, look at the front, you will see two push tabs holding the front face plate on. Push the tabs, remove the plate. The drives are on sleds, to remove a drive, push the locking tab on the sled, remove sled and drive. >Moreover, I imagine I'll use one of the considerably larger IDE types I've >set >aside from PC use to replace the drives now in the machines. It's safe to >assume, however, that NOT any IDE drive will work, since Apple Computers, >Inc. >didn't like folks buying hardware at a resonable price from someone else >rather >than allowing Apple to gouge them. (part of the MAC culture, I guess) I >note, >also, that the CDROM is SCSI. That being the case, I'd like to see whether >there's room for a SCSI HDD in the box. There certainly is room in the >system >(logically). That would work even better, since I have lots of extra SCSI >drives. Have any of you MAC gurus got experience with replacing MAC IDE >drives? There is no room in the case to add a 2nd internal drive, and running cables to replace the IDE with SCSI will be a bitch. Also, if you use SCSI, you are limited to using Apple approved drives, or you need 3rd party formating software (or a hacked version of apple's software). If you stick with IDE, you can use any drive you want, of any size you want (I am almost 100% positive apple has no problems using drives larger than 8gig on 68k machines... but you might want to double check before buying a 40 gig and hoping to use it... of course there are OS limitations on the size of a partition on older versions of the OS, don't remember details right now). Either way, you are safe to stick an older multi gig IDE drive into the 630 without a problem. Apple's software will recognize it just fine. Just remember that 68k machines can't use HFS+ formatting, so keep your drive partitions under 4 gig, or you will be wasting TONS of space on the drive. >It looks as though the drives in the boxes are 250 MB or so, which might be >adequate for some things, but I doubt it would be adequate for internet >activity. Actually, internet activity is probably what will be happiest on the 250mb drive. I think you are thinking Windows size applications. For Email you can use Eudora or Emailer (both about 3mb), Web can be iCab (about 3mb and actively under development). Fetch 3.0 has a 68k version that is about 2mb for FTP. And a plethora of other 68k friendly internet software (check www.macorchard.com). Throw in a copy of AppleWorks 5, and you have decent office apps. (or go all out with things like Nisus Writer, FileMaker Pro 3 or 4, not sure on spreadsheet but there are good options). If you make a mild attempt to lead a Microsoft free life, you will be AMAZED at the stability, small size, and speed of applications out there... all that are just as good (and in most cases BETTER). If you need to talk to MS documents, just grab a copy of MacLink Plus (although, the latest versions are PPC only, so getting access to the latest MS doc formats on a 68k machine can be a bit trickier... but still doable without too much effort). If you have 1 or 2 gig IDE drives sitting around anyway, why not use them. More important than upgrading the drive in my book would be to deck out the 630 with RAM by adding a 32mb chip. Once you have the ram, you can run OS 8.1 if you would like (in my opinion, it runs smoother and faster than 7.6.1, and is more stable than 7.5.5... but YMMV). OS 8.1 opens you up to even more good 68k software. -chris From cisin at xenosoft.com Sat Nov 17 16:33:54 2001 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin (XenoSoft)) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:11:13 2005 Subject: Votrax In-Reply-To: <5.0.0.25.2.20011117105251.024b68a0@209.185.79.193> Message-ID: > >IIRC, you just open up a 300 bps connection to it, JUST open a 300bps connection??!?! Did you know that there is at least one documented fatality from the frustrations of RS232 interfacing? ALthough SOME models of the Votraxen might not have been totally demented, ... Once the Radio Shack Computer Center called me, and paid me to come to them and connect a Votrax to a model 2, for a blind customer. That model Votrax required a handshake on an unexpected pin (11? 12?). Without the manual for the Votrax, I don't think that anyone here other than Tony could have succeeded! I don't remember what I charged them (a few hours, travel, and a little extra for field soldering), but I do remember that they gave me as a tip a copy of the Model 2 Technical Reference Manual. > > and send data as ASCII for > >it to speak. There was an ad for the Votrax which had a Commodore 64 program > >on the 'screen' driving it, and I think that's all there was to it. On Sat, 17 Nov 2001, Chuck McManis wrote: > Depends on if it is just the allophone generator or both the allophone/text > to speech processor. Any idea what model it is? Most of the phoneme based ones chose characters for the phonemes based on mnemonic similarities to English. Thus, if you send ASCII text to it, you WILL get speech, just really LOUSY, since most English words are not close enough to phonetic for decent quality. But sending plain ASCII text will produce something that is recognizable as being speech, and you'll be able to pick out occasional words (and you'll get a chance to feel what it's like to be hard of hearing!) "HELLO" will be marginally recognizable, but try something like "H38L8^U" Most of them, at their best, were pretty bad. Debbee Norling described the Vortrax as sounding "like a Martian in a tin can". But blind folk who used them regularly would get used to the weird sound, and it would be "like a friend with a heavy accent." BTW, since speech is so agonizingly slow to get through long program listings, etc, most blind folk would run the text through at MUCH faster rates than normal speech. -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin@xenosoft.com NOTE: My ISP is having some problems. If you have difficulty reaching me at this e-mail address, you can leave a message at: fcisin@merritt.edu cisin@info.sims.berkeley.edu From sieler at allegro.com Sat Nov 17 16:32:20 2001 From: sieler at allegro.com (Stan Sieler) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:11:13 2005 Subject: HP 3000 No More (legacy) In-Reply-To: <15350.56269.182486.271813@phaduka.neurotica.com> Message-ID: <3BF674F4.31361.9A2B27B@localhost> Re: > Well, as long as "dead" can be defined as "salespeople don't want to > sell you a new one". For me, it can't. I can pick up the phone and ... I agree with you. > Now, Stan...I apologize if it seems as if I'm jumping down your throat no problem! > to the choir. But I also believe that the vast majority of the folks > here understand that computers don't stop processing data when the Me too...particularly since most of my work is on the HP 3000 :) (And the part that isn't is on PA-RISC based HP 9000s!) Stan Sieler sieler@allegro.com www.allegro.com/sieler/wanted/index.html www.allegro.com/sieler From sieler at allegro.com Sat Nov 17 16:35:49 2001 From: sieler at allegro.com (Stan Sieler) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:11:13 2005 Subject: HP 3000 No More In-Reply-To: <200111172209.fAHM9T323715@daemonweed.reanimators.org> Message-ID: <3BF675C5.26020.9A5E44C@localhost> Re: > > The 16-bit HP 3000 was never multi-CPU. The HP 3000 Series III, introduced ... > Somebody had ideas about it being a dual-CPU shared-memory system > early on. Looking at the HP3000 Computer System Reference Manual from > September 1973, I see that locations %10-%13 were reserved for the > second processor's current PCB pointer, QI, ZI, and interrupt count. > > The Series II added two instructions: LOCK and UNLK, which were used Thanks...I'd forgotten those were Series II and not Series III. > What I don't know is whether MPE ever had dual-CPU support. If it > didn't, I wonder how they worked out that having an in-memory > semaphore would be a good idea. My recollection, and it is a hazy one, is that in the mid 1980s I heard a rumor inside HP that someone had actually tried a dual CPU Series II in the lab in the last 1970s, but the project was dropped for some reason. I'll ask some of the older 3000 people about it. Stan Sieler sieler@allegro.com www.allegro.com/sieler/wanted/index.html www.allegro.com/sieler From kyrrin at bluefeathertech.com Sat Nov 17 16:54:42 2001 From: kyrrin at bluefeathertech.com (Bruce Lane) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:11:13 2005 Subject: Additional drive and supplemental info. Message-ID: <200111171454420865.087C791A@192.168.42.129> This one is light and small enough to be shipped. It's a 'Gigastore' drive from Digi-Data Corp. Best of all, it includes the operation/maintenance manual(!). The 'Gigastore' is a weird device. What Digi-Data did is take a regular VHS VCR, make some modifications to the transport assembly, and added their own electronics to provide a Pertec interface. The result was a tape backup system that used regular VHS tapes, could store up to 2.5 gigabytes of data, and could interface to any Pertec controller. This one's cheap: $25.00 or best offer, plus shipping. Also, FYI: The HP 9-track drive I mentioned earlier would include the manual. Thanks much. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- Bruce Lane, Owner & Head Hardware Heavy, Blue Feather Technologies -- http://www.bluefeathertech.com ARS KC7GR (Formerly WD6EOS) since 12-77 -- kyrrin@bluefeathertech.com "I'll get a life when someone demonstrates that it would be superior to what I have now..." (Taki Kogoma, aka Gym Z. Quirk) From pete at dunnington.u-net.com Sat Nov 17 17:21:44 2001 From: pete at dunnington.u-net.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:11:13 2005 Subject: HP 3000 No More (legacy) In-Reply-To: Dave McGuire "Re: HP 3000 No More (legacy)" (Nov 17, 16:51) References: <001501c16d8b$aeb3df70$0101a8c0@sympatico.ca> <3BF65D12.12708.94562BD@localhost> <15350.56269.182486.271813@phaduka.neurotica.com> Message-ID: <10111172321.ZM13913@mindy.dunnington.u-net.com> On Nov 17, 16:51, Dave McGuire wrote: > Well, as long as "dead" can be defined as "salespeople don't want to > sell you a new one". For me, it can't. I can pick up the phone and > buy PDP8 equipment from a commercial vendor. How long ago was THAT > architecture discontinued? Real Soon Now, according to people who still have them on support. Or about 1995, (yes, that's two '9's there) according to the copyright on the PCB etch of the memory board in the PDP-8/E I recently acquired :-) -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager University of York From gunther at aurora.regenstrief.org Sat Nov 17 17:22:27 2001 From: gunther at aurora.regenstrief.org (Gunther Schadow) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:11:13 2005 Subject: BC16D-25 cable, what's that? Message-ID: <3BF6F133.2090707@aurora.regenstrief.org> Hi, I have a big pile of DEC BC16D-25 cable. It has one Centronics like connector on each end. The connectors have 36 pins. I have absolutely no clue what these cables are for. They came with my recent VAX treck that included a VAX6000 cluster and a DEC Server 90. If you know what this cable is used for or if you want it, please let me know. I have at least one or 2 dozen of those. If nobody wants it I'll probably have to throw it out. regards -Gunther -- Gunther Schadow, M.D., Ph.D. gschadow@regenstrief.org Medical Information Scientist Regenstrief Institute for Health Care Adjunct Assistant Professor Indiana University School of Medicine tel:1(317)630-7960 http://aurora.regenstrief.org From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Sat Nov 17 17:18:31 2001 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (ajp166) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:11:13 2005 Subject: HP 3000 No More (legacy) Message-ID: <00af01c16fbf$8e5b4f70$23ec9a8d@ajp166> From: Dave McGuire >On November 17, Stan Sieler wrote: >> PA-RISC is dead/dying ... HP has said so. IA-64 killed it. > > [knee-jerk reaction to a pet peeve follows] > > Well, as long as "dead" can be defined as "salespeople don't want to >sell you a new one". For me, it can't. I can pick up the phone and >buy PDP8 equipment from a commercial vendor. How long ago was THAT >architecture discontinued? > > For me, something is "dead" (or "obsolete" or whatever you want to >call it) when it can no longer do its job adequately and Dead to me is broken. Obsolete is when it cant forfill the intesded task or when it has reached a level of repair difficulty where replacement is an option. For those CNC tools with PDP-8 or PDP11s running them that number is still over $50,000 to upgrade and 100s of thousands of dollars to replace. In the face of that the PDP-8 that still makes good flanges is cheap at $2000 for a working cold spare. For example I was given three working 386(mono) and 486(color) laptops as too weak to be useful. Fully working machines with Xircom network adaptors and all! Allison From edick at idcomm.com Sat Nov 17 18:03:49 2001 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:11:13 2005 Subject: OT: paging MAC expert(s) --- What's a Performa? References: <200111172230.QAA74349@opal.tseinc.com> Message-ID: <001c01c16fc4$8000e520$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> Yes, I'll probably upgrade the drives, since I have quite a few <2GB drives sitting about idle. I'm told that the 250MB drives that come with these boxes are adequate for what many people need, but a drive twice or 3x that size might be better. Right now, one of the two boxes is sitting, and has been for several hours, trying to reconstruct the work surface, or whatever it's called. It doesn't look as though it needs that service, but the machine won't go beyond that point. It's about 4:45 now and it's been at it since about 2:30. I'm inclined to try a backup on the other machine, if that's possible. Does the MAC OS recognize external SCSI tape drives and use them with its backup utility? Jim Arnott was kind enough to email me a PDF of the service manual for the 630, so I believe I have enough to work with. However, I'm curious about the software that's on these boxes, having yet to verify that I have the distribution media for some of the possibly useful software on them. I have documents for some software that's clearly absent, hence, my erroneous notion that these boxes had the Intel processor add-on. I'm also curious whether it's possible or even advisable to tweak the monitor so that it actually uses all the glass it has rather than leaving that stupid 1" margin around the display area that many MAC monitors seem to leave unused. That effectively reduces the "14-inch" (measures out to 13.0") display to a nominally 11-inch size. I figure I'll have this ironed out in a week or two. Dick ----- Original Message ----- From: "Chris" To: "Classic Computers" Sent: Saturday, November 17, 2001 3:30 PM Subject: Re: OT: paging MAC expert(s) --- What's a Performa? > >Right now, I'm pretty concerned about how to crack open the box without > >breaking > >it, so I can inspect the hard disk to see what it is, physically. Does > >anybody > >have a recipe for doing that? > > This is going off memory of upgrading a 6360 (same case design)... if you > want exact, I can email again on Monday when I am in front of a 630. > > To remove the logic board: On the back, there are two plastic tabs, push > them lightly, remove the plastic face plate. Remove the two screws on > either side under the face plate. Pull on the handle, the board will > slide out. > > To remove drives: Flip the unit over, look at the front, you will see two > push tabs holding the front face plate on. Push the tabs, remove the > plate. The drives are on sleds, to remove a drive, push the locking tab > on the sled, remove sled and drive. > > >Moreover, I imagine I'll use one of the considerably larger IDE types I've > >set > >aside from PC use to replace the drives now in the machines. It's safe to > >assume, however, that NOT any IDE drive will work, since Apple Computers, > >Inc. > >didn't like folks buying hardware at a resonable price from someone else > >rather > >than allowing Apple to gouge them. (part of the MAC culture, I guess) I > >note, > >also, that the CDROM is SCSI. That being the case, I'd like to see whether > >there's room for a SCSI HDD in the box. There certainly is room in the > >system > >(logically). That would work even better, since I have lots of extra SCSI > >drives. Have any of you MAC gurus got experience with replacing MAC IDE > >drives? > > There is no room in the case to add a 2nd internal drive, and running > cables to replace the IDE with SCSI will be a bitch. Also, if you use > SCSI, you are limited to using Apple approved drives, or you need 3rd > party formating software (or a hacked version of apple's software). If > you stick with IDE, you can use any drive you want, of any size you want > (I am almost 100% positive apple has no problems using drives larger than > 8gig on 68k machines... but you might want to double check before buying > a 40 gig and hoping to use it... of course there are OS limitations on > the size of a partition on older versions of the OS, don't remember > details right now). Either way, you are safe to stick an older multi gig > IDE drive into the 630 without a problem. Apple's software will recognize > it just fine. Just remember that 68k machines can't use HFS+ formatting, > so keep your drive partitions under 4 gig, or you will be wasting TONS of > space on the drive. > > >It looks as though the drives in the boxes are 250 MB or so, which might be > >adequate for some things, but I doubt it would be adequate for internet > >activity. > > Actually, internet activity is probably what will be happiest on the > 250mb drive. I think you are thinking Windows size applications. For > Email you can use Eudora or Emailer (both about 3mb), Web can be iCab > (about 3mb and actively under development). Fetch 3.0 has a 68k version > that is about 2mb for FTP. And a plethora of other 68k friendly internet > software (check www.macorchard.com). > > Throw in a copy of AppleWorks 5, and you have decent office apps. (or go > all out with things like Nisus Writer, FileMaker Pro 3 or 4, not sure on > spreadsheet but there are good options). If you make a mild attempt to > lead a Microsoft free life, you will be AMAZED at the stability, small > size, and speed of applications out there... all that are just as good > (and in most cases BETTER). If you need to talk to MS documents, just > grab a copy of MacLink Plus (although, the latest versions are PPC only, > so getting access to the latest MS doc formats on a 68k machine can be a > bit trickier... but still doable without too much effort). > > If you have 1 or 2 gig IDE drives sitting around anyway, why not use > them. More important than upgrading the drive in my book would be to deck > out the 630 with RAM by adding a 32mb chip. Once you have the ram, you > can run OS 8.1 if you would like (in my opinion, it runs smoother and > faster than 7.6.1, and is more stable than 7.5.5... but YMMV). OS 8.1 > opens you up to even more good 68k software. > > -chris > > > > From edick at idcomm.com Sat Nov 17 18:06:32 2001 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:11:13 2005 Subject: BC16D-25 cable, what's that? References: <3BF6F133.2090707@aurora.regenstrief.org> Message-ID: <002601c16fc4$e154f8c0$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> Believe it or not, the 36-pin "Centronics"-like connector is probably a Centronics connector. They probably hook to a non-DEC printer, since little else used that connector. Of course, with DEC, you never know. Dick ----- Original Message ----- From: "Gunther Schadow" To: ; Sent: Saturday, November 17, 2001 4:22 PM Subject: BC16D-25 cable, what's that? > Hi, > > I have a big pile of DEC BC16D-25 cable. It has one Centronics > like connector on each end. The connectors have 36 pins. I have > absolutely no clue what these cables are for. They came with > my recent VAX treck that included a VAX6000 cluster and a > DEC Server 90. > > If you know what this cable is used for or if you want it, > please let me know. I have at least one or 2 dozen of those. > If nobody wants it I'll probably have to throw it out. > > regards > -Gunther > > > -- > Gunther Schadow, M.D., Ph.D. gschadow@regenstrief.org > Medical Information Scientist Regenstrief Institute for Health Care > Adjunct Assistant Professor Indiana University School of Medicine > tel:1(317)630-7960 http://aurora.regenstrief.org > > > From donm at cts.com Sat Nov 17 18:50:03 2001 From: donm at cts.com (Don Maslin) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:11:13 2005 Subject: In search of...5.25" faceplate & mount for WangDAT 3100 or 3200 In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Sat, 17 Nov 2001, Russ Blakeman wrote: > I figure with the "stuff" people in this group latch onto someone might have > one of these. I presently have a WangDAT 3200 (2/4gb DDS1 tape) drive with > the narrow faceplate and I want to put it into the external SCSI case I have > now with my other 3200. Problem being that it's the 3.5" mount and that it > won't really go into a 5.25 to 3.5" adapter as it's as tall as a 5.25" half > height drive desoite it being only 3.5" wide. That basically makes it 1.5x > as tall as a normal 3.5" floppy drive - no go for a regular adapter. Several years ago, I needed to mount a 3" (think Amstrad) floppy drive in a 5.25" slot. It too is the height of a 5.25" half high. To do it, I obtained a 5.25 to 3.5" harddisk adapter. Drilling some new holes, shimming out the brackets with washers, and cutting the center out of the faceplate created a rather presentable installation. You might consider such an approach. - don > Both Mountain and WangDAT made an adapter for 5.25" for these 2 drives > specifically consisting of a 5.25" faceplate and two 3.5" to 5.25" side > brackets (about the same as a standard adapter has). If anyone has a JUNK > 3100 or 3200 drive around they want to get rid of, parts or left overs from > one or even a spare good drive (3100 or 3200) they want to sell cjeap then > drop me a direct note or on the list. I will contact you direct. If you have > a drive with the 5.25" face and want to swap to the smaller 3.5" then that > works too as I have an extra 3.5" faceplate I can mail out in advance. > > Thanks in advance. > From rhblakeman at kih.net Sat Nov 17 19:58:49 2001 From: rhblakeman at kih.net (Russ Blakeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:11:13 2005 Subject: In search of...5.25" faceplate & mount for WangDAT 3100 or 3200 In-Reply-To: Message-ID: I've been attempting many different ways, maybe I'll try this and see what comes of it. -> -----Original Message----- -> From: owner-classiccmp@classiccmp.org -> Behalf Of Don Maslin -> Sent: Saturday, November 17, 2001 6:50 PM -> To: Classic computers message group -> Subject: Re: In search of...5.25" faceplate & mount for WangDAT 3100 or -> 3200 -> -> -> -> -> On Sat, 17 Nov 2001, Russ Blakeman wrote: -> -> > I figure with the "stuff" people in this group latch onto -> someone might have -> > one of these. I presently have a WangDAT 3200 (2/4gb DDS1 -> tape) drive with -> > the narrow faceplate and I want to put it into the external -> SCSI case I have -> > now with my other 3200. Problem being that it's the 3.5" mount -> and that it -> > won't really go into a 5.25 to 3.5" adapter as it's as tall as -> a 5.25" half -> > height drive desoite it being only 3.5" wide. That basically -> makes it 1.5x -> > as tall as a normal 3.5" floppy drive - no go for a regular adapter. -> -> Several years ago, I needed to mount a 3" (think Amstrad) floppy drive -> in a 5.25" slot. It too is the height of a 5.25" half high. To do it, -> I obtained a 5.25 to 3.5" harddisk adapter. Drilling some new holes, -> shimming out the brackets with washers, and cutting the center out of -> the faceplate created a rather presentable installation. You might -> consider such an approach. -> - don -> -> > Both Mountain and WangDAT made an adapter for 5.25" for these 2 drives -> > specifically consisting of a 5.25" faceplate and two 3.5" to 5.25" side -> > brackets (about the same as a standard adapter has). If anyone -> has a JUNK -> > 3100 or 3200 drive around they want to get rid of, parts or -> left overs from -> > one or even a spare good drive (3100 or 3200) they want to -> sell cjeap then -> > drop me a direct note or on the list. I will contact you -> direct. If you have -> > a drive with the 5.25" face and want to swap to the smaller -> 3.5" then that -> > works too as I have an extra 3.5" faceplate I can mail out in advance. -> > -> > Thanks in advance. -> > -> -> From allain at panix.com Sat Nov 17 20:02:49 2001 From: allain at panix.com (John Allain) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:11:13 2005 Subject: BC16D-25 cable, what's that? References: <3BF6F133.2090707@aurora.regenstrief.org> Message-ID: <002701c16fd5$2001f180$21fe54a6@ibm23xhr06> > I have a big pile of DEC BC16D-25 cable... > If you know what this cable is used for... I have a BC16C-25. It goes to a H3104 8 serial port connection block for MMJ (RS232). > I have at least one or 2 dozen of those. -25 means feet, doesn't it? That sure is a lot of copper. John A. From gwynp at artware.qc.ca Sat Nov 17 21:23:08 2001 From: gwynp at artware.qc.ca (gwynp@artware.qc.ca) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:11:13 2005 Subject: OT: paging MAC expert(s) --- What's a Performa? In-Reply-To: <000701c16f18$a1924320$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> Message-ID: On 17-Nov-2001 Richard Erlacher wrote: > I've downloaded TattleTech, but where, now, do I find the Stuffit > Expander? You're best bet is to buy a Mac Addict or other magazine that has a CD-ROM (you do have a CD drive?). Older Macs don't "boot-strap" very well. Yes, you can get a SEA (self-extracting archive) of Stuffit, but it won't do you much good. Mac OS has 2 forks per file. One for data, the other for code. When you download a file or when you copy a file from a PC formated disk everything goes into the data fork. Doing something equivalent to "chmod +x file.sea" is impossible on Mac OS without an external program, like say Stuffit. *sigh* If you are lucky, you'll have a recent version of Mac OS which includes Stuffit. I find this to be one of the most incredible "features" of Mac OS. Apart from that, as long as you have a real computer nearby, using a Mac isn't that bad. What's the use of a Mac of that vintage (ie, old and slow but not classic)? I have a Centris 660av that I use for testing web pages on older macintosh versions of Netscape and MSIE. Of course, finding a 68k version of MSIE is something of a challenge. -Philip From SUPRDAVE at aol.com Sat Nov 17 22:01:59 2001 From: SUPRDAVE at aol.com (SUPRDAVE@aol.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:11:13 2005 Subject: OT: paging MAC expert(s) --- What's a Performa? Message-ID: <168.41c2b56.29288cb7@aol.com> In a message dated 11/17/2001 10:36:49 PM Eastern Standard Time, gwynp@artware.qc.ca writes: << What's the use of a Mac of that vintage (ie, old and slow but not classic)? I have a Centris 660av that I use for testing web pages on older macintosh versions of Netscape and MSIE. Of course, finding a 68k version of MSIE is something of a challenge. -Philip >> What's the use of an old mac? I guess you haven't played crystal quest on a mac plus yet! heh. From mythtech at Mac.com Sat Nov 17 22:29:33 2001 From: mythtech at Mac.com (Chris) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:11:13 2005 Subject: OT: paging MAC expert(s) --- What's a Performa? Message-ID: <200111180429.WAA77239@opal.tseinc.com> > as long as you have a real computer nearby BWAAAA-HAAA-HAA-HAAA!!! >What's the use of a Mac of that vintage (ie, old and slow but not >classic)? The list goes on and on. Check www.lowendmac.com for some pointers... but basically, it can do pretty much everything a "regular" home user would want. Internet, basic office work, graphics, games (albeit, if you want REAL gaming, buy a console or a "toy" computer that uses Windows). >I have a Centris 660av that I use for testing web pages on >older macintosh versions of Netscape and MSIE. The 660AV will also allow you to do video in/out, and some video editing (with the right software). -chris From mythtech at Mac.com Sat Nov 17 22:35:57 2001 From: mythtech at Mac.com (Chris) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:11:13 2005 Subject: OT: paging MAC expert(s) --- What's a Performa? Message-ID: <200111180435.WAA77281@opal.tseinc.com> >Right now, one of the two boxes is sitting, and has been for several hours, >trying to reconstruct the work surface, or whatever it's called. It doesn't >look as though it needs that service, but the machine won't go beyond that >point. It's about 4:45 now and it's been at it since about 2:30. I'm >inclined >to try a backup on the other machine, if that's possible. Sounds like you may have a problem with the OS. Unless you know the direct history of these machines (ie: you know everything that has been run and installed on them), I would recommend you reformat and reinstall the OS from scratch. Sitting waiting for the Finder do come up is definatly NOT normal. You mentioned in a previous post that you had problems with the mouse cursor freezing for a while, and then coming back... that shouldn't happen, and the fact that it does really tells me you have something wrong. Could be an extension conflict, could be a virus, could be a corrupt file. But since you aren't a very mac literate person (yet... once you start using it, you will catch on fast), you are best off just wiping the drive and installing the OS from scratch. You can download System 7.5.5 from Apple's web site, or if you want it on a bootable CD, let me know, I will be happy to send you one. If you have the CD that came with the Mac, it should let you totally restore the drive to factory settings... unfortunatly, I don't recall if the Performa 630 came with a restore CD or not (I know earlier performa's did not, I am just not sure if apple started supplying it when they started shipping ones with internal CDs). If you DO have a restore CD for that machine, then I would recommend you just run it. That will put you back to a fresh, stable environment, with some basic applications that you can use. >From there, you can move to more advanced stuff. -chris From edick at idcomm.com Sat Nov 17 22:41:18 2001 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:11:13 2005 Subject: OT: paging MAC expert(s) --- What's a Performa? References: <168.41c2b56.29288cb7@aol.com> Message-ID: <000b01c16feb$4414dc20$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> Whereas I guess providing entertainment is a legitimate use of your computer, there are some who won't consider game playing a justification for owning one. I do use the things, e.g. solitaire or the like to pass time while something time-consuming is going on, like a download I'm waiting for, or the like, but I surely don't admit that to my kids. Dick ----- Original Message ----- From: To: Sent: Saturday, November 17, 2001 9:01 PM Subject: Re: OT: paging MAC expert(s) --- What's a Performa? > In a message dated 11/17/2001 10:36:49 PM Eastern Standard Time, > gwynp@artware.qc.ca writes: > > << What's the use of a Mac of that vintage (ie, old and slow but not > classic)? I have a Centris 660av that I use for testing web pages on > older macintosh versions of Netscape and MSIE. Of course, finding a 68k > version of MSIE is something of a challenge. > > -Philip >> > > What's the use of an old mac? I guess you haven't played crystal quest on a > mac plus yet! heh. > > From edick at idcomm.com Sat Nov 17 23:06:21 2001 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:11:13 2005 Subject: OT: paging MAC expert(s) --- What's a Performa? References: <200111180435.WAA77281@opal.tseinc.com> Message-ID: <001701c16fee$c3dc9f80$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> No offense, but I have no plan to become "MAC-Literate" beyond the point of ensuring the basic health of these two computers before I give them away to some poor, unsuspecting person who has access to MAC help and less such access to competent PC help. Since one of the people to whom I'm planning to give one of these is a single woman who volunteers at the women's shelter where I have been a volunteer for about a decade, I don't want her to be tying up my phone, or, worse, getting the wrong impression about my intentions, as she also works at the school where my boys went a few years back, which is the first place I met her. Though it's no secret I'm not married, I've already got all the women I need, plus about 10% (exactly one). I do want to be able to give these boxes to someone, with the confidence that they'll not be having unnecessary problems because I've not ferreted out some problems, though, so I'll consider your advice. If I put new drives in them, they'll be freshly formatted and the OS install will be new and fresh. While it's a generous offer, I'll try to get by with the CD's I've got on hand for now, as those are accompanied with the registrations, documentation that comes with these boxes, etc, and I'd like everything at least to appear to be on the up-and-up, copyright-law-wise. Whereas I may sometimes play things fast-and-loose with "borrowed" software, etc, I'd prefer not to promulgate those attitudes and practices into the new-user community where they might be seen differently than I see them. What I suspect is that there's a syncronization error between the installed OS and the OS on the CD. That would have come about by my own hand, so I'll consider the consequences. BTW, what does the "Backup" function do? It seems to want to copy things to floppies, but can it also copy things to an external SCSI drive? How about to a SCSI tape? Dick ----- Original Message ----- From: "Chris" To: "Classic Computers" Sent: Saturday, November 17, 2001 9:35 PM Subject: Re: OT: paging MAC expert(s) --- What's a Performa? > >Right now, one of the two boxes is sitting, and has been for several hours, > >trying to reconstruct the work surface, or whatever it's called. It doesn't > >look as though it needs that service, but the machine won't go beyond that > >point. It's about 4:45 now and it's been at it since about 2:30. I'm > >inclined > >to try a backup on the other machine, if that's possible. > > Sounds like you may have a problem with the OS. Unless you know the > direct history of these machines (ie: you know everything that has been > run and installed on them), I would recommend you reformat and reinstall > the OS from scratch. Sitting waiting for the Finder do come up is > definatly NOT normal. You mentioned in a previous post that you had > problems with the mouse cursor freezing for a while, and then coming > back... that shouldn't happen, and the fact that it does really tells me > you have something wrong. Could be an extension conflict, could be a > virus, could be a corrupt file. But since you aren't a very mac literate > person (yet... once you start using it, you will catch on fast), you are > best off just wiping the drive and installing the OS from scratch. > > You can download System 7.5.5 from Apple's web site, or if you want it on > a bootable CD, let me know, I will be happy to send you one. If you have > the CD that came with the Mac, it should let you totally restore the > drive to factory settings... unfortunatly, I don't recall if the Performa > 630 came with a restore CD or not (I know earlier performa's did not, I > am just not sure if apple started supplying it when they started shipping > ones with internal CDs). If you DO have a restore CD for that machine, > then I would recommend you just run it. That will put you back to a > fresh, stable environment, with some basic applications that you can use. > From there, you can move to more advanced stuff. > > -chris > > > > From red at bears.org Sat Nov 17 23:14:21 2001 From: red at bears.org (r. 'bear' stricklin) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:11:13 2005 Subject: OT: paging MAC expert(s) --- What's a Performa? In-Reply-To: <001101c16fa2$370a6de0$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> Message-ID: On Sat, 17 Nov 2001, Richard Erlacher wrote: > I have some doubts about that multitasking ... the system seems to go away for > 5 - 30 minutes, depending on what it's doing, and won't allow any mouse or > keyboard activity to interrupt what it's doing, which is a mystery. It does > come back eventually, though I've not checked it extensively. This sort of > event happens on both boxes, so I doubt it's broken hardware. Here's a thought. Disable file sharing, and set the default Appletalk connection to the built-in printer port. These can be set in the "File Sharing" and "Appletalk" control panels, respectively. ok r. From edick at idcomm.com Sat Nov 17 23:33:22 2001 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:11:13 2005 Subject: OT: paging MAC expert(s) --- What's a Performa? References: Message-ID: <002701c16ff2$89ffdc60$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> This box has been at it (rebuilding desktop file) since 2:30 this afternoon and hasn't yet finished booting. I suspect there's a problem, as it previously took only a minute or two. It won't let me do anything other than shut down. I've rebooted it once, and it simply went back to what is was doing, which doesn't seem to be leading anywhere. Dick ----- Original Message ----- From: "r. 'bear' stricklin" To: Sent: Saturday, November 17, 2001 10:14 PM Subject: Re: OT: paging MAC expert(s) --- What's a Performa? > On Sat, 17 Nov 2001, Richard Erlacher wrote: > > > I have some doubts about that multitasking ... the system seems to go away for > > 5 - 30 minutes, depending on what it's doing, and won't allow any mouse or > > keyboard activity to interrupt what it's doing, which is a mystery. It does > > come back eventually, though I've not checked it extensively. This sort of > > event happens on both boxes, so I doubt it's broken hardware. > > Here's a thought. > > Disable file sharing, and set the default Appletalk connection to the > built-in printer port. These can be set in the "File Sharing" and > "Appletalk" control panels, respectively. > > ok > r. > > From spectre at stockholm.ptloma.edu Sat Nov 17 23:46:43 2001 From: spectre at stockholm.ptloma.edu (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:11:13 2005 Subject: Votrax In-Reply-To: from Fred Cisin at "Nov 17, 1 02:33:54 pm" Message-ID: <200111180546.VAA08046@stockholm.ptloma.edu> > >IIRC, you just open up a 300 bps connection to it, > JUST open a 300bps connection??!?! Yep, the program just had 10 open2,2,2,chr$(6) : : 40 close2 Works great on a C64 :-) -- ----------------------------- personal page: http://www.armory.com/~spectre/ -- Cameron Kaiser, Point Loma Nazarene University * ckaiser@stockholm.ptloma.edu -- Eeny, Meeny, Jelly Beanie, the spirits are about to speak! -- Bullwinkle --- From Innfogra at aol.com Sun Nov 18 00:58:59 2001 From: Innfogra at aol.com (Innfogra@aol.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:11:13 2005 Subject: Data General One Portable Printer Message-ID: <66.1782eda3.2928b633@aol.com> Here is a nice DG1 Portable printer, 3 hours to go, currently $9.95. http://cgi.ebay.com/aw-cgi/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=1297127236&r=0&t=0& showTutorial=0&ed=1006078740&indexURL=0&rd=1 Paxton From mythtech at Mac.com Sun Nov 18 01:32:03 2001 From: mythtech at Mac.com (Chris) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:11:13 2005 Subject: OT: paging MAC expert(s) --- What's a Performa? Message-ID: <200111180732.BAA78653@opal.tseinc.com> >No offense, but I have no plan to become "MAC-Literate" beyond the point of >ensuring the basic health of these two computers before I give them away >to some >poor, unsuspecting person who has access to MAC help and less such access to >competent PC help. hehe, yeah, but that mac is so damn easy to learn, you may become "mac-literate" by accident just in your quick use. >Since one of the people to whom I'm planning to give one of >these is a single woman who volunteers at the women's shelter where I have >been >a volunteer for about a decade, I don't want her to be tying up my phone, or, >worse, getting the wrong impression about my intentions, as she also works at >the school where my boys went a few years back, which is the first place I >met >her. Though it's no secret I'm not married, I've already got all the women I >need, plus about 10% (exactly one). Definitly just reformat and start from scratch then. If you are giving them away, no sense even messing around trying to get the software working as it. Reformat, reinstall, and hand them off knowing they will work fine when YOU give them away. >While it's a generous offer, I'll try to get by with the CD's I've got on >hand >for now, as those are accompanied with the registrations, documentation that >comes with these boxes, etc, and I'd like everything at least to appear to >be on >the up-and-up, copyright-law-wise. Whereas I may sometimes play things >fast-and-loose with "borrowed" software, etc, I'd prefer not to promulgate >those >attitudes and practices into the new-user community where they might be seen >differently than I see them. Actually, System 7.5.5 is freely available from Apple's web site. So if you have the tools, you can make a bootable OS install disk yourself, and distribute it with the Mac, safely, and legally. I assume you DON'T have the tools (like another Mac with a CD burner and a copy of Toast), so if you want one, I will make one for you and mail it over to you (free of charge, since it will really only cost me less than a buck a disk with postage). >BTW, what does the "Backup" function do? It seems to want to copy things to >floppies, but can it also copy things to an external SCSI drive? How >about to a >SCSI tape? UGH... no, that means the machines probably didn't come with a restore CD. To cut costs with the performa line, apple stopped shipping them with install disks. Instead, they made a little "Backup" program, and you were supposed to purchase a box (a big box, since it needs like 25 or 50) of disks, and run the backup program. It would then create the install disks for you, to hang on to until the day you needed to reinstall. Annoying to say the least. Unfortuantly, the backup program will ONLY write to floppies, so you can't hook up a scsi tape drive and go to that (besides, the Mac has no built in drivers for a tape drive, so you would need software like Retrospect to access it anyway). I can probably hunt down a set of install disks for the Performa 630 (I might actually have such already, I have to see if I got the original software with one of them that I recovered) if you need them. Sounds like you might already have the original software CDs. If one is called Software Restore, then you are good to go, but that backup program makes me think you don't have it (I think I have one for a Performa 638CD, which is basically the same machine, slightly different bundle). If I have it, I can always make you two copies of it (again, since you have the machine they go to, there should be nothing legally wrong with getting copies from me). -chris From mythtech at Mac.com Sun Nov 18 01:43:33 2001 From: mythtech at Mac.com (Chris) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:11:13 2005 Subject: OT: paging MAC expert(s) --- What's a Performa? Message-ID: <200111180743.BAA78741@opal.tseinc.com> >This box has been at it (rebuilding desktop file) since 2:30 this >afternoon and >hasn't yet finished booting. I suspect there's a problem, as it >previously took >only a minute or two. It won't let me do anything other than shut down. >I've >rebooted it once, and it simply went back to what is was doing, which doesn't >seem to be leading anywhere. Are you actually seeing a message "Rebuilding desktop on drive ---"? You shouldn't get that just at boot time unless the desktop database is corrupt (or unless you instructed it to rebuild by holding command and option before the desktop was shown). If it is hung while trying to rebuild (you should hear the hard drive clicking, and the progress bar should be moving... may be slowly, but it should move... a 250mb drive, even fully loaded on a 68k machine shouldn't take more than 10 minutes to rebuild). So... if it is hung, and you rebooted the machine, and it hung AGAIN... then chances are REALLY REALLY good your drive format is damaged. The best bet here, reformat the drive (and run the test on it to verify the drive itself is not bad). Or, since you want to upgrade the drive... just do that and don't worry about the 250 at all. If on the other hand, you are just hung during boot (little icons going across the bottom of the screen, Welcome to Macintosh splash screen is still showing)... then you probably have a bad extension. Reboot the computer, and right after you hear the BONG, hold down the shift key until you see "Welcome To Macintosh Extensions Disabled" on the screen (the extensions disabled will be written below the welcome to mac). Then it should finish booting normally. You can try doing a restart after that (special menu, choose Restart), but it might hang again. Better choice, go to the Apple menu, go to Control Panels, go to Extension Manager, choose "Base" from the popup. Again, this problem will go away if you reformat and reinstall the OS. (I really really think you should just do that before you mess with the machines anymore... it will save you a bundle of heartache... at the VERY least, run Disk First Aid, and let it repair the disk if needed... and then do a clean install of the OS) -chris From gwynp at artware.qc.ca Sun Nov 18 08:37:16 2001 From: gwynp at artware.qc.ca (gwynp@artware.qc.ca) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:11:17 2005 Subject: OT: paging MAC expert(s) --- What's a Performa? In-Reply-To: <200111180429.WAA77239@opal.tseinc.com> Message-ID: On 18-Nov-2001 Chris wrote: > The list goes on and on. Check www.lowendmac.com for some pointers... > but basically, it can do pretty much everything a "regular" home user > would want. Internet, basic office work, graphics, games Well, if you can find an office suite that works on a 68k processor and don't mind frequent waiting, sure. At one point these computers were top of the line. However, they no longer are. And they aren't old enough nor rare enough to be collectables. Except for the one that sparked this discussion : a 486 in a Mac! YOW! > The 660AV will also allow you to do video in/out, and some video editing > (with the right software). I haven't had the time to get this working. I also don't have a source for video signals to test it. I don't own a TV (I'll fight getting a TV tooth and nail), nor a VCR nor DVD player. I'd rather spend my time hacking or reading. However my SO misses not being able to rent movies, so we're probably going to get a VCR soon. At that point I'll set the Centris up as a display for it. -Philip From dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com Sun Nov 18 09:18:37 2001 From: dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com (Douglas Quebbeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:11:19 2005 Subject: Control Data Cyber 960 rescue interest? Message-ID: <7A9BACCEF0171D4FB77019F5104CDD3722592C@jeffserver.tegjeff.com> Would you be willing to post a digital pic or two? I know someone who may be able to use these as spares for his system, if they're from the right equipment. -dq > Speaking of CDC, among the junk I'm cleaning out of my basement there's a > partial backplane out > of an old CDC something-or-other, connected to a panel with 2 > AC outlets > (Monitor & Data Set), a fuse and a DB25 for the Data Set. > There's also an > acoustic delay line and a large resistor/diode > matrix board which I think came from the same piece. Maybe a 60's era > terminal??? > > 3 rows of cards; the two top rows A & B have 25 slots for 4 > 1/2x6", double > sided 31 edge > connectors cards, some with 10 test points along the edge and each > populated with one or two > dozen gold 10 pin TO5 cans marked M (as in Motorola) 115, > 116, 117, 118 > with what I assume are > date codes like 6624, 6644, and 6636. > > The bottom row, C, 32 slots, contains a few smaller cards with pin > connectors that appear to be > some kind of programming cards, just containing jumper wires. > > Anybody recognize these and maybe even have a use for a card > or two, or can > I throw them out > without feeling guilty? > > mike > > > From r.stek at snet.net Sun Nov 18 10:20:58 2001 From: r.stek at snet.net (Bob Stek) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:11:19 2005 Subject: Votrax Message-ID: <000601c1704d$024f51f0$0201a8c0@bob> Ed - I think I may be able to help. I have several units - a Type 'N Talk and a Personal Speech System. Which model do you have? If it's the TNT, here is an online manual: http://members.tripod.com/werdav/txtospm1.html If it's the PSS, I'll need a few days to dig it out. Bob Stek Saver of Lost Sols From celt at chisp.net Sun Nov 18 10:25:12 2001 From: celt at chisp.net (Michael Maginnis) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:11:19 2005 Subject: OT: paging MAC expert(s) --- What's a Performa? References: <200111170039.QAA09132@stockholm.ptloma.edu> <005701c16f11$44e6fb40$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> <000701c16f18$a1924320$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> <3BF6828B.3070106@chisp.net> Message-ID: <3BF7E0E8.8030708@chisp.net> True. It appears that all (?) of the older versions are available on their ftp site... ftp://ftp.aladdinsys.com/pub/_old/mac/StuffIt_Expander/ This directory seems to have versions 4.0 through 6.0.1. Mike Jeff Hellige wrote: > He'd have to make sure he got an older version that supported the > 68k Mac's though, as the current versions are PPC-only and require at > least OS 8.1. I believe I have a 68k version here on an old Earthlink > software CD. That version will work on a 68k Mac with OS 7.0 or above. > > Jeff > >> http://www.aladdinsys.com/ >> >> Richard Erlacher wrote: >> >>> I've downloaded TattleTech, but where, now, do I find the Stuffit >>> Expander? >>> >>> regards, >>> >>> Dick >>> >>> ----- Original Message ----- >>> From: "Jeff Hellige" >>> To: >>> Sent: Friday, November 16, 2001 8:17 PM >>> Subject: Re: OT: paging MAC expert(s) --- What's a Performa? >>> >>> >> >> >> > > From celt at chisp.net Sun Nov 18 10:35:09 2001 From: celt at chisp.net (Michael Maginnis) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:11:19 2005 Subject: OT: paging MAC expert(s) --- What's a Performa? References: <200111171759.JAA11106@stockholm.ptloma.edu> <000d01c16f93$9db75d00$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> <002901c16fa3$4342fae0$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> Message-ID: <3BF7E33D.5070801@chisp.net> By that point in the Mac development cycle, Apple had pretty much decided that users easily gaining access to the internals of their machines was a Bad Thing; the so-called 'hacker' mentality of the Apple II days had fallen out of favor. Couldn't let the magic smoke out, you see. The Performa 637CD sitting on the table in the next room was a pain to open, and getting the case off only gave me access to the metal enclosures surrounding the guts of the machine (more screws, sliding, etc). Mike Richard Erlacher wrote: > I'm acquainted with the tabs on the back of the "pizza-box" MAC's, but this > isn't one of them. The tabs on the back allow removal of a small plastic cover > that conceals the handle by means of which the PC board is extracted. It's > apparently a pretty well-thought-out packaging job, unlike most PC's, but I > haven't a clue how to get into the box itself to do things to the drives, etc. > Now, maybe it's not necessary or even advisable to increase the hard disk size, > but, since I have them available I'd do it if there's significant benefit > involved. > > Dick > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Jeff Hellige" > To: > Sent: Saturday, November 17, 2001 11:53 AM > Subject: Re: OT: paging MAC expert(s) --- What's a Performa? > > > From celt at chisp.net Sun Nov 18 10:52:04 2001 From: celt at chisp.net (Michael Maginnis) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:11:19 2005 Subject: OT: paging MAC expert(s) --- What's a Performa? References: <200111152220.fAFMKes32507@narnia.int.dittman.net> <001201c16e2d$7b747d20$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> Message-ID: <3BF7E734.2080305@chisp.net> Here's a pretty good description of what you've got: http://support.info.apple.com/info.apple.com/applespec/applespec.taf?RID=80 Mike Richard Erlacher wrote: > I had a mental lapse today and, as I was unloading the stuff in my car, noticed > that I had, among the rest of the stuff, a pretty complete Mac Performa 630CD. > This found its way into my car because it was fairly complete, i.e. included > keyboard/mouse, monitor, modem, color printer, cables, etc. including some > documentation including CD's, registration doc's, instructions, etc. I'm > curious what interesting hardware I should find in the box? Is the hard disk > worth salvaging? What sort of memory is likely to be found inside? > > Any suggestions as to how best to exploit this thing? I noticed among the > documentation that it apparently has the ability to process PC diskettes and run > some PC software. What does that include? > > Dick > > > From edick at idcomm.com Sun Nov 18 11:06:29 2001 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:11:19 2005 Subject: OT: paging MAC expert(s) --- What's a Performa? References: <200111171759.JAA11106@stockholm.ptloma.edu> <000d01c16f93$9db75d00$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> <002901c16fa3$4342fae0$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> <3BF7E33D.5070801@chisp.net> Message-ID: <001901c17053$5d748b80$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> Well, I've got the technical reference, thanks to Jim Arnott, and it has PICTURES! I should have no trouble doing this if it turns out to be necessary. Dick ----- Original Message ----- From: "Michael Maginnis" To: Sent: Sunday, November 18, 2001 9:35 AM Subject: Re: OT: paging MAC expert(s) --- What's a Performa? > By that point in the Mac development cycle, Apple had pretty much > decided that users easily gaining access to the internals of their > machines was a Bad Thing; the so-called 'hacker' mentality of the Apple > II days had fallen out of favor. Couldn't let the magic smoke out, you > see. > > The Performa 637CD sitting on the table in the next room was a pain to > open, and getting the case off only gave me access to the metal > enclosures surrounding the guts of the machine (more screws, sliding, etc). > > Mike > > Richard Erlacher wrote: > > > I'm acquainted with the tabs on the back of the "pizza-box" MAC's, but this > > isn't one of them. The tabs on the back allow removal of a small plastic cover > > that conceals the handle by means of which the PC board is extracted. It's > > apparently a pretty well-thought-out packaging job, unlike most PC's, but I > > haven't a clue how to get into the box itself to do things to the drives, etc. > > Now, maybe it's not necessary or even advisable to increase the hard disk size, > > but, since I have them available I'd do it if there's significant benefit > > involved. > > > > Dick > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: "Jeff Hellige" > > To: > > Sent: Saturday, November 17, 2001 11:53 AM > > Subject: Re: OT: paging MAC expert(s) --- What's a Performa? > > > > > > > > > > > > From edick at idcomm.com Sun Nov 18 11:43:40 2001 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:11:19 2005 Subject: OT: paging MAC expert(s) --- What's a Performa? References: <200111152220.fAFMKes32507@narnia.int.dittman.net> <001201c16e2d$7b747d20$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> <3BF7E734.2080305@chisp.net> Message-ID: <000701c17058$8f7188e0$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> Yes, I saw that. What's still a little murky is how best to exploit the thing in the context of "normal" (if there is such a thing) home computing. I certainly don't know what's normal. There's software installed that's undocumented (unsupported by registration doc's), so it will have to go, but I'm not interested in going out and buying software to load the thing up so that it can do some basic correspondence. They both have Claris Works loaded, but since there's no CD and no doc, I have to say it's got to be flushed. Too bad since that purports to have all the stuff that's needed. There's even a (single) copy of the manual suggesting that the software stayed wherever these boxes came from. (makes my skin crawl to end a sentence with a preposition, but it would sound too "stilted" to construct the sentence correctly ... ) You've gathered by now, I'm sure, that there were actually two complete systems rather than just one. One has a Stylewriter II and the other has a Color Stylewriter 2400, not that I know what the differences are. Unlike what I originally read the drive size to be, these are, indeed, the minimally equipped Performa 630CD, with a CD, 8 MB of RAM and a 250 MB hard disk. They have essentially useless (2400 Baud) GV Teleport Bronze modems, which I guess I'll upgrade in order to make the system useful for internet browsing, and I suppose it won't hurt to upgrade the things to 36 MB of RAM. I'm still in the throes of figuring out how, exactly to equip these things with "legal" software, or at least useable software that I can install myself, so that I can get back to where I started if I have to, without having to make a major investment. I've had some useful suggestions, and I'll get back to doing this stuff after Turkey Day, since I have to put away my toys in the meantime. My SO knows where I sleep, so I have to do this ... ... the sacrifices one makes ... Dick ----- Original Message ----- From: "Michael Maginnis" To: Sent: Sunday, November 18, 2001 9:52 AM Subject: Re: OT: paging MAC expert(s) --- What's a Performa? > Here's a pretty good description of what you've got: > > http://support.info.apple.com/info.apple.com/applespec/applespec.taf?RID=80 > > Mike > > Richard Erlacher wrote: > > > I had a mental lapse today and, as I was unloading the stuff in my car, noticed > > that I had, among the rest of the stuff, a pretty complete Mac Performa 630CD. > > This found its way into my car because it was fairly complete, i.e. included > > keyboard/mouse, monitor, modem, color printer, cables, etc. including some > > documentation including CD's, registration doc's, instructions, etc. I'm > > curious what interesting hardware I should find in the box? Is the hard disk > > worth salvaging? What sort of memory is likely to be found inside? > > > > Any suggestions as to how best to exploit this thing? I noticed among the > > documentation that it apparently has the ability to process PC diskettes and run > > some PC software. What does that include? > > > > Dick > > From jhellige at earthlink.net Sun Nov 18 12:25:41 2001 From: jhellige at earthlink.net (Jeff Hellige) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:11:19 2005 Subject: OT: paging MAC expert(s) --- What's a Performa? In-Reply-To: <3BF7E33D.5070801@chisp.net> References: <200111171759.JAA11106@stockholm.ptloma.edu> <000d01c16f93$9db75d00$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> <002901c16fa3$4342fae0$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> <3BF7E33D.5070801@chisp.net> Message-ID: >The Performa 637CD sitting on the table in the next room was a pain >to open, and getting the case off only gave me access to the metal >enclosures surrounding the guts of the machine (more screws, >sliding, etc). Actually, other than some of the low-end models from the mid-90's, and of course the early compact Mac's, most of the cases have been pretty easy to get into. Examples are the 6100, all of the G3/G4 minitowers, and even the Color Classic with it's slide-out mainboard. The current tower cases are a dream to work in with the way the mainboard drops down with the side panel. Of course, some of the most horrid case designs were those like the 8500/9500 series where you had to remove the whole mainboard from the machine to do something as simple as a cache or RAM upgrade. Jeff -- Home of the TRS-80 Model 2000 FAQ File http://www.cchaven.com http://www.geocities.com/siliconvalley/lakes/6757 From cmcmanis at mcmanis.com Sun Nov 18 13:09:14 2001 From: cmcmanis at mcmanis.com (Chuck McManis) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:11:19 2005 Subject: BC16D-25 cable, what's that? In-Reply-To: <3BF6F133.2090707@aurora.regenstrief.org> Message-ID: <5.0.0.25.2.20011118110414.023dec20@209.185.79.193> At 06:22 PM 11/17/01 -0500, Gunther Schadow wrote: >I have a big pile of DEC BC16D-25 cable. ... >If you know what this cable is used for or if you want it, >please let me know. Hi Gunthar, These cables are used to connect a CXA16 and some other 8 port DEC cards (the time share card for the VAXServer come to mind) to something called a "harmonica block" this is a box that has one of those centronics connectors on it on one side and 8 MMJ ports on the other. Currently NetBSD does not support the CXA16 but VMS does and I've got one as my multiuser demo system. The cables come in a couple of flavors, in one, one of the centronics has a right angle configuration to allow it to be used with a BA213 with the door on. In another both ends are right angles. I've not seen one that was straight on both ends but DEC made a _lot_ of different cables. Did you get a pile of harmonica blocks with the cables? --Chuck From edick at idcomm.com Sun Nov 18 13:06:06 2001 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:11:19 2005 Subject: OT: paging MAC expert(s) --- What's a Performa? References: <200111171759.JAA11106@stockholm.ptloma.edu> <000d01c16f93$9db75d00$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> <002901c16fa3$4342fae0$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> <3BF7E33D.5070801@chisp.net> Message-ID: <000d01c17064$133893c0$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> That box looks to be quite straightforward to crack open, judging by the exploded view in the tech ref. You can easily walk on the water if you know where the rocks are. Dick ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jeff Hellige" To: Sent: Sunday, November 18, 2001 11:25 AM Subject: Re: OT: paging MAC expert(s) --- What's a Performa? > >The Performa 637CD sitting on the table in the next room was a pain > >to open, and getting the case off only gave me access to the metal > >enclosures surrounding the guts of the machine (more screws, > >sliding, etc). > > Actually, other than some of the low-end models from the > mid-90's, and of course the early compact Mac's, most of the cases > have been pretty easy to get into. Examples are the 6100, all of > the G3/G4 minitowers, and even the Color Classic with it's slide-out > mainboard. The current tower cases are a dream to work in with the > way the mainboard drops down with the side panel. Of course, some of > the most horrid case designs were those like the 8500/9500 series > where you had to remove the whole mainboard from the machine to do > something as simple as a cache or RAM upgrade. > > Jeff > -- > Home of the TRS-80 Model 2000 FAQ File > http://www.cchaven.com > http://www.geocities.com/siliconvalley/lakes/6757 > > From mythtech at Mac.com Sun Nov 18 13:19:19 2001 From: mythtech at Mac.com (Chris) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:11:19 2005 Subject: OT: paging MAC expert(s) --- What's a Performa? Message-ID: <200111181919.NAA82668@opal.tseinc.com> >They both have Claris Works loaded, but since >there's no CD and no doc, I have to say it's got to be flushed. NO NO NO NO... Claris Works shipped with EVERY performa... but since it was an Apple product, it was tied into that damn Backup program, and no install disks were supplied. (There should be a simple manual, but the previous owners may have lost it). Don't flush it, it is legal (and again, I can supply you with a replacement copy if need be, it came with Claris Works version 2.1) >One has a Stylewriter II and the other has a Color >Stylewriter 2400, not that I know what the differences are. The 2400 is the better of the two. Check Apple's web site for specs. The goofy catch with the 2400 is, it has no direct printer driver, you need to use the driver for the 2500 (go figure) > They have >essentially useless (2400 Baud) GV Teleport Bronze modems, which I guess I'll >upgrade in order to make the system useful for internet browsing If you are dumping the GV Bronze modems, I would be interested in aquiring them from you. They are FANTASTIC fax modems, so I use them on old Mac SE's as fax stations. >I'm still in the throes of figuring out how, exactly to equip these things >with >"legal" software Accordng to Apple, the 630CD comes with a Restore CD. Run that, and you will get all the shipped "legal" software the machine came with. The 630CD shipped with the following software: Performa 630CD - M3424LL/A ? ? ? ? ? Includes ClarisWorks 2.1, American ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ?Heritage Dictionary 3rd Edition, Quicken ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ?4, MacLink Translators, Mac Gallery Clip ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ?Art, Click Art Performa Collection, ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ?KidWorks 2, Thinkin' Things, The Writing ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ?Center, Spectre Challenger, Spin Doctor ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ?Lite, TelePort Fax Send, At Ease 2.0, PC ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ?Exchange, and eWorld. It also orginally shipped with System 7.1, but 7.5.5 is now free off Apple's web site, so you can upgrade to it without legal fear. If you don't have the restore CD, let me know, I can look and see if I have one. -chris From classiccmp at knm.yi.org Sun Nov 18 08:27:45 2001 From: classiccmp at knm.yi.org (Matt London) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:11:19 2005 Subject: Cypher F880 docs anywhere? (and anyone .uk with spare tapes?) Message-ID: Hi guys, I've got a Cypher F880 tape drive here, and I was wondering if the docs made it onto the net anywhere :&) As an aside - I don't have any tapes - so if there's anyone in the UK with some tapes I could have, I'd be most grateful :&) Thanks, -- Matt --- Web Page: http://knm.yi.org/ http://pkl.net/~matt/ PGP Key fingerprint = 00BF 19FE D5F5 8EAD 2FD5 D102 260E 8BA7 EEE4 8D7F PGP Key http://knm.yi.org/matt-pgp.html From gmphillips at earthlink.net Sun Nov 18 15:27:37 2001 From: gmphillips at earthlink.net (John Galt) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:11:19 2005 Subject: Intel C8080A chip brings $565 on EBAY Message-ID: <000c01c17077$dbd0adf0$0100a8c0@sys1> Well, it was one of only two known rare purple Intel C8080A's I am always in the market to buy rare old Intel microprocessors and support chips. If you have any old Intel 4004, 8008, 4040, or 8080 microprocessors laying around, I want them. Also buying old EPROMS (C1702's, etc), RAM (C3101, C1101, C1103, etc), clock chips, etc). Contact me at gmphillips@earthlink.net -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20011118/250cb7a7/attachment-0001.html From gmphillips at earthlink.net Sun Nov 18 16:02:48 2001 From: gmphillips at earthlink.net (John Galt) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:11:19 2005 Subject: Intel C8080A chip brings $565 on EBAY References: <000c01c17077$dbd0adf0$0100a8c0@sys1> Message-ID: <000b01c1707c$c362eb20$0100a8c0@sys1> Link: http://cgi.ebay.com/aw-cgi/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=1296402506 ----- Original Message ----- From: John Galt To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org Sent: Sunday, November 18, 2001 4:27 PM Subject: Intel C8080A chip brings $565 on EBAY Well, it was one of only two known rare purple Intel C8080A's I am always in the market to buy rare old Intel microprocessors and support chips. If you have any old Intel 4004, 8008, 4040, or 8080 microprocessors laying around, I want them. Also buying old EPROMS (C1702's, etc), RAM (C3101, C1101, C1103, etc), clock chips, etc). Contact me at gmphillips@earthlink.net -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20011118/0c86af96/attachment-0001.html From jruschme at Mac.com Sun Nov 18 17:22:41 2001 From: jruschme at Mac.com (John Ruschmeyer) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:11:19 2005 Subject: OT: paging MAC expert(s) --- What's a Performa? In-Reply-To: <200111180435.WAA77279@opal.tseinc.com> Message-ID: > Date: Sat, 17 Nov 2001 11:13:51 -0700 > From: "Richard Erlacher" > Subject: Re: OT: paging MAC expert(s) --- What's a Performa? > > Right now, I'm pretty concerned about how to crack open the box without > breaking > it, so I can inspect the hard disk to see what it is, physically. Does > anybody > have a recipe for doing that? I think I saw someone offer you the service manual. If not, contact me off-line for a copy (pdf). In short, on the underside of the front bezel are two tabs. You need to use a large flat screwdriver, in a twistint motion, to release them. At that point, the whole front should come off. The hard drive is behind a shield under the floppy drive. IIRC, you need to remove one screw to remove the shield. The drive is on a sled with a release tab. > Moreover, I imagine I'll use one of the considerably larger IDE types I've set > aside from PC use to replace the drives now in the machines. It's safe to > assume, however, that NOT any IDE drive will work, since Apple Computers, Inc. > didn't like folks buying hardware at a resonable price from someone else > rather > than allowing Apple to gouge them. (part of the MAC culture, I guess) True for SCSI drives. Oddly enough, Apple's Drive Setup will deal with pretty much any IDE drive. I > note, > also, that the CDROM is SCSI. That being the case, I'd like to see whether > there's room for a SCSI HDD in the box. There certainly is room in the system > (logically). That would work even better, since I have lots of extra SCSI > drives. The problem is, that in the 630 series, the only internal connectors to the SCSI chain are in the CD-ROM bay. Better to stay with IDE drives internally (nothing to stop you from an external SCSI drive). > Have any of you MAC gurus got experience with replacing MAC IDE > drives? You're limited to PIO mode 3 (max). Also, Western Digital drives over about 1.2GB don't seem to work correctly. Mine has a 3GB Seagate drive, though it came to me with a 600mb WD drive and I briefly installed a 500mb Quantum. The big thing you need is a copy of Drive Setup. > It looks as though the drives in the boxes are 250 MB or so, which might be > adequate for some things, but I doubt it would be adequate for internet > activity. Hmm... I think that's a matter of perspective. MacOS and a browser will fit well enough. Just not a lot of room left for downloads, etc. <<>> From rhblakeman at kih.net Sun Nov 18 18:51:18 2001 From: rhblakeman at kih.net (Russ Blakeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:11:19 2005 Subject: Intel C8080A chip brings $565 on EBAY In-Reply-To: <000b01c1707c$c362eb20$0100a8c0@sys1> Message-ID: Excuse my ignorance but even at the fact that it's a purple ceramic - is this like a prototype or one of Intel's first runs or something that makes it worth more than most new processors? -----Original Message----- From: owner-classiccmp@classiccmp.org [mailto:owner-classiccmp@classiccmp.org]On Behalf Of John Galt Sent: Sunday, November 18, 2001 4:03 PM To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org Subject: Re: Intel C8080A chip brings $565 on EBAY Link: http://cgi.ebay.com/aw-cgi/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=1296402506 ----- Original Message ----- From: John Galt To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org Sent: Sunday, November 18, 2001 4:27 PM Subject: Intel C8080A chip brings $565 on EBAY Well, it was one of only two known rare purple Intel C8080A's I am always in the market to buy rare old Intel microprocessors and support chips. If you have any old Intel 4004, 8008, 4040, or 8080 microprocessors laying around, I want them. Also buying old EPROMS (C1702's, etc), RAM (C3101, C1101, C1103, etc), clock chips, etc). Contact me at gmphillips@earthlink.net -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20011118/454cbc42/attachment-0001.html From foo at siconic.com Sun Nov 18 19:39:28 2001 From: foo at siconic.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:11:19 2005 Subject: Intel C8080A chip brings $565 on EBAY In-Reply-To: <000b01c1707c$c362eb20$0100a8c0@sys1> Message-ID: On Sun, 18 Nov 2001, John Galt wrote: > Link: > > http://cgi.ebay.com/aw-cgi/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=1296402506 We've found the new reigning All-time Undisputed World Champion Idiot. Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org From JLYoda at aol.com Sun Nov 18 19:50:07 2001 From: JLYoda at aol.com (JLYoda@aol.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:11:19 2005 Subject: (no subject) Message-ID: Where can I purchase Mattell football 2 1978? -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20011118/049ee6a8/attachment-0001.html From gmphillips at earthlink.net Sun Nov 18 19:56:51 2001 From: gmphillips at earthlink.net (John Galt) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:11:19 2005 Subject: Intel C8080A chip brings $565 on EBAY References: Message-ID: <001101c1709d$7564c800$0100a8c0@sys1> Actually, it's an very late date C8080A. Probably one of the last batches produced. As for "why" is it more valuable than a normal white ceramic C8080A, that's like asking "why" is a "rare" purple Beanie Baby doll worth $500 when the "common" white one is only worth $1. It would be the same thing as if a factory made "Red" IMSAI 8080 showed up for sale on EBAY and there were only two known to exist. There would be collectors willing to pay more for it than the "common" blue IMSAI 8080. It's all supply and demand. As more and more people get into chip collecting it is starting to drive up the prices on the harder to find chips. For example, these are the prices being asked (and paid) for some of the harder to find old Intel and Intel second source chips in NOS condition: Some of the valuable early Intel chips include: Intel C4004 - $200-$300 Intel C4004 with gray traces - $250-$500 Intel C4004 prototype with gray traces and wood laminate cap - $3000+ (beware of fakes) Intel P4004 gray DIP - $150 Intel C4040 - $300-$500 Intel P4040 gray dip - $150 Intel G8008 - $300+ ('G' prefix is not a typo) Intel 8008 - $300+ (No prefix is not a typo) Intel C8080 - $1000+ Intel C8080-8 - $600+ Intel D8080 - $600+ Intel P8080 - $400+ Intel C3101, C1101, C1103 - $150-$300 Intel C8085 - $350 (No 'A' suffix) Intel C8085A or C8086 - $250 Intel C1702 - $250 (No 'A' suffix) Some of the valuable Intel 2nd source chips include: Microsystems International MF8008 - $300 Siemens SAB8008-1C - $300 SAB8008-1D - $300 SAB8008-2-P - $300 National Semiconductor INS4004D - $250 If you have any of these chips and you want to get rid of them, send me an email. ----- Original Message ----- From: Russ Blakeman To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org Sent: Sunday, November 18, 2001 7:51 PM Subject: RE: Intel C8080A chip brings $565 on EBAY Excuse my ignorance but even at the fact that it's a purple ceramic - is this like a prototype or one of Intel's first runs or something that makes it worth more than most new processors? -----Original Message----- From: owner-classiccmp@classiccmp.org [mailto:owner-classiccmp@classiccmp.org]On Behalf Of John Galt Sent: Sunday, November 18, 2001 4:03 PM To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org Subject: Re: Intel C8080A chip brings $565 on EBAY Link: http://cgi.ebay.com/aw-cgi/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=1296402506 ----- Original Message ----- From: John Galt To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org Sent: Sunday, November 18, 2001 4:27 PM Subject: Intel C8080A chip brings $565 on EBAY Well, it was one of only two known rare purple Intel C8080A's I am always in the market to buy rare old Intel microprocessors and support chips. If you have any old Intel 4004, 8008, 4040, or 8080 microprocessors laying around, I want them. Also buying old EPROMS (C1702's, etc), RAM (C3101, C1101, C1103, etc), clock chips, etc). Contact me at gmphillips@earthlink.net -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20011118/efe7cb00/attachment-0001.html From gmphillips at earthlink.net Sun Nov 18 20:17:40 2001 From: gmphillips at earthlink.net (John Galt) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:11:19 2005 Subject: Intel C8080A chip brings $565 on EBAY References: Message-ID: <001301c170a0$5e49fcf0$0100a8c0@sys1> Why are chip collectors so frowned upon on this mailing list? Do you guys think us chip collectors are out here busting up Intelec's, Altairs, and IMSAI's to get the chips out of them or something? We are legitimate collectors just like you guys are. Most "normal" people would say you guys are idiots for preserving and collecting old computers and paying 2K+ for an old IMSAI 8080. Give me a break. Better yet, give me all those old "worthless" purple C8080A's you have laying around. I'll give you $1 ea. for them so you won't feel like you're taking advantage of an "idiot". ----- Original Message ----- From: "Sellam Ismail" To: Sent: Sunday, November 18, 2001 8:39 PM Subject: Re: Intel C8080A chip brings $565 on EBAY > On Sun, 18 Nov 2001, John Galt wrote: > > > Link: > > > > http://cgi.ebay.com/aw-cgi/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=1296402506 > > We've found the new reigning All-time Undisputed World Champion Idiot. > > Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival > -------------------------------------------------------------------------- ---- > International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org > From Diff at Mac.com Sun Nov 18 20:24:16 2001 From: Diff at Mac.com (Zach Malone) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:11:19 2005 Subject: Intel C8080A chip brings $565 on EBAY References: Message-ID: <001101c170a1$57278d60$6501a8c0@laboffice> Either a lot of people canceled their bids, or that guy bid himself up to 505$, when no one else had bid. (http://cgi6.ebay.com/aw-cgi/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewBids&item=1296402506). Zach ----- Original Message ----- From: "Sellam Ismail" To: Sent: Sunday, November 18, 2001 8:39 PM Subject: Re: Intel C8080A chip brings $565 on EBAY > On Sun, 18 Nov 2001, John Galt wrote: > > > Link: > > > > http://cgi.ebay.com/aw-cgi/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=1296402506 > > We've found the new reigning All-time Undisputed World Champion Idiot. > > Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival > -------------------------------------------------------------------------- ---- > International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org > From gehrich at tampabay.rr.com Sun Nov 18 20:26:54 2001 From: gehrich at tampabay.rr.com (Gene Ehrich) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:11:19 2005 Subject: Mattell football 2 1978 In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <4.3.2.7.2.20011118212611.00adeae0@pop3.norton.antivirus> At 08:50 PM 11/18/01 -0500, you wrote: >Where can I purchase Mattell football 2 1978? for what platform? --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- gene@ehrich.com gehrich@tampabay.rr.com P.O. Box 3365 Spring Hill Florida 34611-3365 http://www.voicenet.com/~generic Computer & Video Game Garage Sale From jpero at sympatico.ca Sun Nov 18 15:55:05 2001 From: jpero at sympatico.ca (jpero@sympatico.ca) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:11:19 2005 Subject: Intel C8080A chip brings $565 on EBAY In-Reply-To: <001301c170a0$5e49fcf0$0100a8c0@sys1> Message-ID: <20011119025154.HEKA10804.tomts19-srv.bellnexxia.net@duron> > From: "John Galt" > To: > Subject: Re: Intel C8080A chip brings $565 on EBAY > Date: Sun, 18 Nov 2001 21:17:40 -0500 > Reply-to: classiccmp@classiccmp.org > Why are chip collectors so frowned upon on this mailing list? Do you guys > think us chip collectors are out here busting up Intelec's, Altairs, and > IMSAI's to get the chips out of them or something? > > We are legitimate collectors just like you guys are. What is your intentions?! Collectors is catch-all word, some good some bad! > > Most "normal" people would say you guys are idiots > for preserving and collecting old computers and paying > 2K+ for an old IMSAI 8080. That $2K for Imsai is the supply and demand fostered by clueless but greedy people who wanted to make this a collection stuff as a cash cow than simply using it and fixing it and play with it, that latter is amirable, former is frowned upon. Also Imsai is buggy and botched up box. There's better built and properly designed S-100 boxens to play with. Your original message didn't introduce yourself clearly first. The way the message was written, sounded like business, intentions of making $ and this message also doesn't reflect of these people on this CC list. This is exactly what speared thru that wasp nest and angry wasps flying out. > > Give me a break. Not a chance!...you have lot to explain to that CC list then that uproar will settle down. Cheers, Wizard From SUPRDAVE at aol.com Sun Nov 18 21:07:19 2001 From: SUPRDAVE at aol.com (SUPRDAVE@aol.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:11:19 2005 Subject: Mattell football 2 1978 Message-ID: <88.f75fddd.2929d167@aol.com> In a message dated 11/18/2001 9:37:31 PM Eastern Standard Time, gehrich@tampabay.rr.com writes: << At 08:50 PM 11/18/01 -0500, you wrote: >Where can I purchase Mattell football 2 1978? for what platform? >> I'm sure he's talking a handheld game. From gmphillips at earthlink.net Sun Nov 18 21:15:54 2001 From: gmphillips at earthlink.net (John Galt) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:11:19 2005 Subject: Intel C8080A chip brings $565 on EBAY References: <001101c170a1$57278d60$6501a8c0@laboffice> Message-ID: <000d01c170a8$807bfaf0$0100a8c0@sys1> Actually, the chip was offered by a well known German collector. He found two of these chips. He kept one and put the other on EBAY. I was bidding against another american collector who probably has the largest collection of old microprocessors in the USA. We were the only two bidders. Other collectors were interested in the chip (several emailed me) and did not bid because they knew who was going to be bidding on the chip. I know the guy I was bidding against. We have traded chips in the past. I raised my bid once before he ever bid because I was expecting that he would try and take the chip in the final seconds of the auction. Instead he bid once, outbid my high bid, I came back and started bidding (multiple times) until I finally took the high bid, and that was that, Before you dismiss us chip collectors as a bunch of "idiots", you might take a few minutes and check out some of the sites springing up on the net dedicated to chip collecting. A good example is www.cpu-museum.com ----- Original Message ----- From: "Zach Malone" To: Sent: Sunday, November 18, 2001 9:24 PM Subject: Re: Intel C8080A chip brings $565 on EBAY > Either a lot of people canceled their bids, or that guy bid himself up > to 505$, when no one else had bid. > (http://cgi6.ebay.com/aw-cgi/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewBids&item=1296402506). > Zach > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Sellam Ismail" > To: > Sent: Sunday, November 18, 2001 8:39 PM > Subject: Re: Intel C8080A chip brings $565 on EBAY > > > > On Sun, 18 Nov 2001, John Galt wrote: > > > > > Link: > > > > > > http://cgi.ebay.com/aw-cgi/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=1296402506 > > > > We've found the new reigning All-time Undisputed World Champion Idiot. > > > > Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer > Festival > > -------------------------------------------------------------------------- > ---- > > International Man of Intrigue and Danger > http://www.vintage.org > > > From jhellige at earthlink.net Sun Nov 18 21:15:58 2001 From: jhellige at earthlink.net (Jeff Hellige) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:11:19 2005 Subject: Mattell football 2 1978 In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.2.20011118212611.00adeae0@pop3.norton.antivirus> References: <4.3.2.7.2.20011118212611.00adeae0@pop3.norton.antivirus> Message-ID: >At 08:50 PM 11/18/01 -0500, you wrote: >>Where can I purchase Mattell football 2 1978? > >for what platform? It's a handheld videogame. Mattel, Entex, and Coleco did quite well with that market with a number of different games at about that time. Jeff -- Home of the TRS-80 Model 2000 FAQ File http://www.cchaven.com http://www.geocities.com/siliconvalley/lakes/6757 From jhellige at earthlink.net Sun Nov 18 21:20:11 2001 From: jhellige at earthlink.net (Jeff Hellige) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:11:19 2005 Subject: Intel C8080A chip brings $565 on EBAY In-Reply-To: <001101c170a1$57278d60$6501a8c0@laboffice> References: <001101c170a1$57278d60$6501a8c0@laboffice> Message-ID: > Either a lot of people canceled their bids, or that guy bid himself up >to 505$, when no one else had bid. >(http://cgi6.ebay.com/aw-cgi/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewBids&item=1296402506). Actually, he likely placed a high proxy bid and then the 2nd bidder came along at 5:31 and placed a fairly large bid, which took the original guy a bit of bidding to finally get over. Jeff -- Home of the TRS-80 Model 2000 FAQ File http://www.cchaven.com http://www.geocities.com/siliconvalley/lakes/6757 From spectre at stockholm.ptloma.edu Sun Nov 18 21:29:06 2001 From: spectre at stockholm.ptloma.edu (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:11:19 2005 Subject: Mattell football 2 1978 In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.2.20011118212611.00adeae0@pop3.norton.antivirus> from Gene Ehrich at "Nov 18, 1 09:26:54 pm" Message-ID: <200111190329.TAA08652@stockholm.ptloma.edu> > >Where can I purchase Mattell football 2 1978? > > for what platform? It's not a cartridge, it's one of the original Mattel Electronics handhelds that predated the Intellivision. -- ----------------------------- personal page: http://www.armory.com/~spectre/ -- Cameron Kaiser, Point Loma Nazarene University * ckaiser@stockholm.ptloma.edu -- The faster we go, the rounder we get. -- The Grateful Dead, on relativity -- From gmphillips at earthlink.net Sun Nov 18 21:43:15 2001 From: gmphillips at earthlink.net (John Galt) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:11:19 2005 Subject: Intel C8080A chip brings $565 on EBAY References: <20011119025154.HEKA10804.tomts19-srv.bellnexxia.net@duron> Message-ID: <001501c170ac$5276fca0$0100a8c0@sys1> Let's see... My "Intentions"... Well, I am a chip collector. I want chips. I want you to sell them to me. I will offer you more than you might think they are worth. If you do not need some old chips you have laying around, then here's a chance for you to get rid of them and make a few bucks in the process. Will I turn around and try and sell the chips I bought from you at a profit? I might. If you sell me a chip for 5$ that I already have and collectors are paying $500 for it, then yes, I will sell it or better yet, trade it for a chip I do not have that I would have had to have paid $500 for otherwise. "Clueless and greedy" people? Hmmm. I might be "clueless" (some here have proclaimed me an idiot) but I do not consider myself "greedy". The C8080A bid went that high because two collectors wanted it and there was only one available. There was no "greed" involved. "The way the message was written, sounded like business, intentions of making $". My intent was to demonstrate that you guys should come off that stash of old chips you have squireled away. They are not doing you any good and there is a community of chip collectors who would love to get their hands on them. But then, they are not here at the moment and I am, so I am more than willing to "distribute" them to legitimate collectors for you. In otherwords, I am willing to be the "middleman". I buy the chips from you (for more than you think they are worth) and I then put them in the hands of legitmate chip collectors. You get some cash and get to know that your old chips will be preserved and enjoyed by others instead of sitting in some box in your garage. Will I make money on the deal? I might, but if I do, I'll just use it to buy other chips I do not have from other collectors. Most collectors obtain most of there chips thru trading. But that only works if you have chips to trade. I don't have any old computers to trade so I offer you cash instead. However, if you do need a chip, there's a good chance I can find it for you. In fact, I've got a special this week. Purple C8080A's for only $600 ea. - Just kidding! I can get you the white and gold ones for less than that. Besides, why do you need a C8080A when a P8080A will work just as well? I can get those for $5. In reality, most of the chips you might need can be obtained at very reasonable prices or by simply trading one of us a chip we do not already have. ----- Original Message ----- From: To: Sent: Sunday, November 18, 2001 4:55 PM Subject: Re: Intel C8080A chip brings $565 on EBAY > > From: "John Galt" > > To: > > Subject: Re: Intel C8080A chip brings $565 on EBAY > > Date: Sun, 18 Nov 2001 21:17:40 -0500 > > Reply-to: classiccmp@classiccmp.org > > > Why are chip collectors so frowned upon on this mailing list? Do you guys > > think us chip collectors are out here busting up Intelec's, Altairs, and > > IMSAI's to get the chips out of them or something? > > > > We are legitimate collectors just like you guys are. > > What is your intentions?! Collectors is catch-all word, some good > some bad! > > > > > Most "normal" people would say you guys are idiots > > for preserving and collecting old computers and paying > > 2K+ for an old IMSAI 8080. > > That $2K for Imsai is the supply and demand fostered by clueless but > greedy people who wanted to make this a collection stuff as a cash > cow than simply using it and fixing it and play with it, that > latter is amirable, former is frowned upon. Also Imsai is buggy and > botched up box. There's better built and properly designed S-100 > boxens to play with. > > Your original message didn't introduce yourself clearly first. > The way the message was written, sounded like business, intentions of > making $ and this message also doesn't reflect of these people on > this CC list. This is exactly what speared thru that wasp nest and > angry wasps flying out. > > > > > Give me a break. > > Not a chance!...you have lot to explain to that CC list then > that uproar will settle down. > > Cheers, > > Wizard From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Sun Nov 18 07:02:29 2001 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (Ben Franchuk) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:11:19 2005 Subject: Intel C8080A chip brings $565 on EBAY References: <20011119025154.HEKA10804.tomts19-srv.bellnexxia.net@duron> Message-ID: <3BF7B165.8D0DB730@jetnet.ab.ca> jpero@sympatico.ca wrote: > That $2K for Imsai is the supply and demand fostered by clueless but > greedy people who wanted to make this a collection stuff as a cash > cow than simply using it and fixing it and play with it, that > latter is amirable, former is frowned upon. Also Imsai is buggy and > botched up box. There's better built and properly designed S-100 > boxens to play with. > Well the whole S-100 bus was a mess for the longest time. As reminder IMSAI is back in business at http://www.imsai.net/ Here you can get parts for your classic 8080 computer or a new 20MHZ Z80 S-100 bus computer for around $1K. Why pay $2k for a 2 MHZ 8080 when you can get a 20 MHZ version for half the price. :) Ben Franchuk. -- Live "Pre-historic Cpu's" -- and you thought they were extinct. www.jetnet.ab.ca/users/bfranchuk/index.html From fmc at reanimators.org Sun Nov 18 21:55:33 2001 From: fmc at reanimators.org (Frank McConnell) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:11:19 2005 Subject: Corvus Floppy Drive? In-Reply-To: "Curt Vendel"'s message of "Wed, 14 Nov 2001 10:51:15 -0500" References: <001f01c16ca0$2af63430$0a00a8c0@cvendel> <200111140047.fAE0l1O57491@daemonweed.reanimators.org> <000d01c16cb6$24381f30$0a00a8c0@cvendel> <200111140358.fAE3wSv62823@daemonweed.reanimators.org> <001801c16d24$31e954f0$3135ff0a@cvendel> Message-ID: <200111190355.fAJ3tXE34985@daemonweed.reanimators.org> "Curt Vendel" wrote: (Re: Corvus floppy disk controllers) > If you run across the schematic I would be willing to pay for any copying > and postage, thanks again Frank. Take a look at: http://www.reanimators.org/tmp/corvus-fdc.d300.tiff http://www.reanimators.org/tmp/corvus-fdc.d600.tiff Both are TIFF class F group 4 scans, one is at 300 DPI, one is at 600 DPI. The "original" that I have is a crappy photocopy so, well, good luck reading them. I'll talk to Al and see if he wants to adopt these or point me to a better scan. The 8" floppy controller also has a space on the board for a 34-pin connector, but it's not stuffed. I got this controller and schematic from an advertisement in Computer Shopper in the mid-to-late 1980s, offering an 8" floppy controller for the Apple ][. Sadly, at the time I didn't have a WDC 1793 data sheet so my efforts at programming the thing were frustrated and I got distracted by other things. Then there's the 5.25" floppy drive. I got that out too and had a look at it. The drive is a Corvus model FLP-5, Rev C, s/n 404-G1018-. It's a metal upright case screwed together and to a half-height 5.25" floppy drive, in this case a TEC FB504 (which is a double-sided "quad density" 720KB drive, so I'm guessing 96 tracks per inch) strapped for DS0 and with terminating resistor pack installed. The 5.25" drive is connected to a different controller. The silkscreen on the board calls it a "BUFFERED FLOPPY CONTROLLER", and there's a handwritten part number, "8010-10149 REV A". It's laid out differently and is clearly a different design: it's got a NEC D765AC FDC, and also has a power connector through which the controller card supplies power to the drive; the power cable and a 34-pin flat cable are bundled together in a sort of plastic zip-lock wrapper. I've no idea what this 5.25" drive was used with. Along about 1996 there were some cleanouts of cupboards and storage rooms at The Wollongong Group (where I worked at the time), and there was this drive and controller (which I got) and a Corvus hard disk (which I didn't get). I didn't see a Concept there. I do know that several folks came from Corvus to Wollongong in the mid-1980s (before I got there) and guess that they brought this stuff with them. -Frank McConnell From rhblakeman at kih.net Sun Nov 18 22:24:01 2001 From: rhblakeman at kih.net (Russ Blakeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:11:19 2005 Subject: Intel C8080A chip brings $565 on EBAY In-Reply-To: <001501c170ac$5276fca0$0100a8c0@sys1> Message-ID: Hopefully this is in response to another comment about "idiots" and not mine. I see your point as a collector and why this is an out of the ordinary one for your collection. I personally don't place that much value on the chip but then I don't see a million plus bucks for a wooden humidor that an ex-president had either, regardless of of historical (sometimes deemed "hysterical" )value. I do see what the resale value is on occasion for things I get and don't personally want as I am a cash collector myself - not as a person that is a numismatic, just a money lover/hoarder. besides cash stores easier than computers and I don't have to plug cash in or troubleshoot it, but I do love to tinker so I have the computers as well. -> -----Original Message----- -> From: owner-classiccmp@classiccmp.org -> [mailto:owner-classiccmp@classiccmp.org]On Behalf Of John Galt -> Sent: Sunday, November 18, 2001 9:43 PM -> To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org -> Subject: Re: Intel C8080A chip brings $565 on EBAY -> -> -> Let's see... -> -> My "Intentions"... Well, I am a chip collector. I want chips. -> I want you -> to sell them to me. I will offer you -> more than you might think they are worth. If you do -> not need some old chips you have laying around, then -> here's a chance for you to get rid of them and make a few -> bucks in the process. Will I turn around and try and sell -> the chips I bought from you at a profit? I might. If you -> sell me a chip for 5$ that I already have and collectors -> are paying $500 for it, then yes, I will sell it or better -> yet, trade it for a chip I do not have that I would have had to have paid -> $500 for otherwise. -> -> "Clueless and greedy" people? Hmmm. I might be "clueless" -> (some here have -> proclaimed me an idiot) but -> I do not consider myself "greedy". The C8080A bid went -> that high because two collectors wanted it and there was only -> one available. -> There was no "greed" involved. -> -> "The way the message was written, sounded like business, intentions of -> making $". -> -> My intent was to demonstrate that you guys should come off that -> stash of old -> chips you have squireled away. -> They are not doing you any good and there is a community of chip -> collectors -> who would love to get -> their hands on them. But then, they are not here at the moment -> and I am, so -> I am more than willing to "distribute" -> them to legitimate collectors for you. In otherwords, -> I am willing to be the "middleman". I buy the chips from -> you (for more than you think they are worth) and I then -> put them in the hands of legitmate chip collectors. -> You get some cash and get to know that your old chips -> will be preserved and enjoyed by others instead of -> sitting in some box in your garage. Will I make money -> on the deal? I might, but if I do, I'll just use it to buy -> other chips I do not have from other collectors. Most -> collectors obtain most of there chips thru trading. But -> that only works if you have chips to trade. I don't have -> any old computers to trade so I offer you cash instead. -> -> However, if you do need a chip, there's a good chance -> I can find it for you. In fact, I've got a special this week. -> Purple C8080A's for only $600 ea. - Just kidding! I can get you -> the white -> and gold ones for less than that. -> Besides, why do you need a C8080A when a P8080A will work just as well? I -> can get those for $5. -> -> In reality, most of the chips you might need can be obtained at very -> reasonable prices or by simply trading -> one of us a chip we do not already have. -> -> ----- Original Message ----- -> From: -> To: -> Sent: Sunday, November 18, 2001 4:55 PM -> Subject: Re: Intel C8080A chip brings $565 on EBAY -> -> -> > > From: "John Galt" -> > > To: -> > > Subject: Re: Intel C8080A chip brings $565 on EBAY -> > > Date: Sun, 18 Nov 2001 21:17:40 -0500 -> > > Reply-to: classiccmp@classiccmp.org -> > -> > > Why are chip collectors so frowned upon on this mailing list? Do you -> guys -> > > think us chip collectors are out here busting up Intelec's, -> Altairs, and -> > > IMSAI's to get the chips out of them or something? -> > > -> > > We are legitimate collectors just like you guys are. -> > -> > What is your intentions?! Collectors is catch-all word, some good -> > some bad! -> > -> > > -> > > Most "normal" people would say you guys are idiots -> > > for preserving and collecting old computers and paying -> > > 2K+ for an old IMSAI 8080. -> > -> > That $2K for Imsai is the supply and demand fostered by clueless but -> > greedy people who wanted to make this a collection stuff as a cash -> > cow than simply using it and fixing it and play with it, that -> > latter is amirable, former is frowned upon. Also Imsai is buggy and -> > botched up box. There's better built and properly designed S-100 -> > boxens to play with. -> > -> > Your original message didn't introduce yourself clearly first. -> > The way the message was written, sounded like business, intentions of -> > making $ and this message also doesn't reflect of these people on -> > this CC list. This is exactly what speared thru that wasp nest and -> > angry wasps flying out. -> > -> > > -> > > Give me a break. -> > -> > Not a chance!...you have lot to explain to that CC list then -> > that uproar will settle down. -> > -> > Cheers, -> > -> > Wizard -> -> From auction888 at sohu.com Sun Nov 18 22:56:10 2001 From: auction888 at sohu.com (China panyu Auction LTD) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:11:19 2005 Subject: Auction Message-ID: <1006145770.23@pacific.net.hk> Guangzhou Panyu Hengli Resort of Agriculture is going to be wholly auctioned at the company lobby on 28th November 2001 because of reformation of town-owned enterprises. Occupying 4000 mu, standing aside the mouth of Pearl River and with convenient transportation, Panyu Hengli Resort of Agriculture is ranked as an Essential Well-plan Spot and Important Sign Seeing Resort in Guangzhou's Ninth Five-year plan. Besides having wonderful tour environment of living, holiday, tourism and entertainment it also has potential development of real easte. The resort is evaluated over RMB 170 million and will be auctioned starting at 50% of evaluation price,I,e,RMB85,000,000.The auction method will be Holland style (from high to low). Please contact our company for auction registration with valid certificate. Contact telephone£º(86-20)84816037 (86-20)84811117 E-mail:auction@ciaa.com.cn Address£º602 No.45 Fanhua Road, Shiqiao Town, Panyu,Guangzhou,China URL: www.ciaa.com.cn GUANGZHOU PANYU AUCTION LTD. From marvin at rain.org Sun Nov 18 23:07:26 2001 From: marvin at rain.org (Marvin Johnston) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:11:19 2005 Subject: Intel C8080A chip brings $565 on EBAY References: <001301c170a0$5e49fcf0$0100a8c0@sys1> Message-ID: <3BF8938E.E9272FE3@rain.org> John Galt wrote: > > Why are chip collectors so frowned upon on this mailing list? Do you guys > think us chip collectors are out here busting up Intelec's, Altairs, and > IMSAI's to get the chips out of them or something? > > We are legitimate collectors just like you guys are. Don't worry about the flack from the peanut gallery :). I, for one, found the information you posted earlier about the collectibility of chips rather fascinating. This is an area I didn't really know existed, and I am curious about it. From kyrrin at bluefeathertech.com Sun Nov 18 23:08:21 2001 From: kyrrin at bluefeathertech.com (Bruce Lane) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:11:19 2005 Subject: Tape drives claimed, thanks much. Message-ID: <200111182108210630.0209305A@192.168.42.129> All three tape drives (both 9-trackers and the Giagstore) have been spoken for. My thanks to all those who mailed in about them, and to the list participants for bearing with my ad(s). -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- Bruce Lane, Owner & Head Hardware Heavy, Blue Feather Technologies -- http://www.bluefeathertech.com ARS KC7GR (Formerly WD6EOS) since 12-77 -- kyrrin@bluefeathertech.com "I'll get a life when someone demonstrates that it would be superior to what I have now..." (Taki Kogoma, aka Gym Z. Quirk) From jss at subatomix.com Sun Nov 18 23:30:02 2001 From: jss at subatomix.com (Jeffrey S. Sharp) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:11:19 2005 Subject: Auction In-Reply-To: <1006145770.23@pacific.net.hk> Message-ID: <20011118232701.F20390-100000@lepton.subatomix.com> On Mon, 19 Nov 2001, China panyu Auction LTD wrote: > Guangzhou Panyu Hengli Resort of Agriculture is [blah blah ...] Can non-subscribers post to this list? If not, it looks like the spammers are getting smarter. Now, where did I put my thermonuclear weaponry? -- Jeffrey S. Sharp jss@subatomix.com From stanb at dial.pipex.com Sun Nov 18 13:27:14 2001 From: stanb at dial.pipex.com (Stan Barr) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:11:19 2005 Subject: OT: paging MAC expert(s) --- What's a Performa? In-Reply-To: Your message of "Sun, 18 Nov 2001 10:43:40 MST." <000701c17058$8f7188e0$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> Message-ID: <200111181927.TAA15747@citadel.metropolis.local> > Yes, I saw that. What's still a little murky is how best to exploit the thing > in the context of "normal" (if there is such a thing) home computing. I > certainly don't know what's normal. There's software installed that's > undocumented (unsupported by registration doc's), so it will have to go, but I'm > not interested in going out and buying software to load the thing up so that it > can do some basic correspondence. They both have Claris Works loaded, but since > there's no CD and no doc, I have to say it's got to be flushed. Too bad since > that purports to have all the stuff that's needed. There's even a (single) copy > of the manual suggesting that the software stayed wherever these boxes came > from. (makes my skin crawl to end a sentence with a preposition, but it would > sound too "stilted" to construct the sentence correctly ... ) These machines shipped with Claris Works pre-installed and on the system CD - at least they did here in the UK. Claris Works is real easy to use and comes with comprehensive on-line help - click on the question mark icon, top right, when in Claris Works. I still use it for my normal word processing, you don't need much horsepower for that! Video equipped models also came with Avid Videoshop. -- Cheers, Stan Barr stanb@dial.pipex.com The future was never like this! From foo at siconic.com Mon Nov 19 00:23:15 2001 From: foo at siconic.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:11:20 2005 Subject: Intel C8080A chip brings $565 on EBAY In-Reply-To: <000c01c17077$dbd0adf0$0100a8c0@sys1> Message-ID: On Sun, 18 Nov 2001, John Galt wrote: > Well, it was one of only two known rare purple Intel C8080A's Do you care to explain this? It certainly doesn't look purple in the photo. How do you know it is only one of two? Known by whom? Where do they come from? If it is purple, why? What's the significance? > If you have any old Intel 4004, 8008, 4040, or 8080 microprocessors > laying around, I want them. Sorry, I'm keeping mine. If I wanted them to end up on eBay I'd put them there myself. Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org From foo at siconic.com Mon Nov 19 00:30:12 2001 From: foo at siconic.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:11:20 2005 Subject: Intel C8080A chip brings $565 on EBAY In-Reply-To: <001301c170a0$5e49fcf0$0100a8c0@sys1> Message-ID: On Sun, 18 Nov 2001, John Galt wrote: > Why are chip collectors so frowned upon on this mailing list? Do you > guys think us chip collectors are out here busting up Intelec's, > Altairs, and IMSAI's to get the chips out of them or something? Speaking personally, the whole thing seems rather silly. It seems to be collecting for the sake of collecting (Collect all 5 Spastastically Juicy colors!) with no regards towards significance. It looks to be Yet Another Silly Fad. Everyone will get their fill, the market will collapse, and people will move on to something else to turn a buck on. It happened with comic books, beanie babies, and old computers. > We are legitimate collectors just like you guys are. There's no such thing as a legitimate collector ;) > Give me a break. No. > Better yet, give me all those old "worthless" purple C8080A's you have > laying around. I'll give you $1 ea. for them so you won't feel like > you're taking advantage of an "idiot". What if I paint one of mine Day-Glo Green? Does it automatically shoot up in value to $5000? Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org From foo at siconic.com Mon Nov 19 00:48:16 2001 From: foo at siconic.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:11:20 2005 Subject: Intel C8080A chip brings $565 on EBAY In-Reply-To: <000d01c170a8$807bfaf0$0100a8c0@sys1> Message-ID: On Sun, 18 Nov 2001, John Galt wrote: > I was bidding against another american collector who probably has the > largest collection of old microprocessors in the USA. Does this include microprocessors that are actually inside a machine? If so, then I claim that title :) Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org From foo at siconic.com Mon Nov 19 00:55:35 2001 From: foo at siconic.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:11:20 2005 Subject: Intel C8080A chip brings $565 on EBAY In-Reply-To: <001501c170ac$5276fca0$0100a8c0@sys1> Message-ID: On Sun, 18 Nov 2001, John Galt wrote: > "Clueless and greedy" people? Hmmm. I might be "clueless" (some here > have proclaimed me an idiot) but I do not consider myself "greedy". > The C8080A bid went that high because two collectors wanted it and > there was only one available. There was no "greed" involved. Dude, chill. Why are you so defensive about this? If you think collecting CPUs is a thrilling and worthwhile hobby then more power to you. Why do you seem to need external validation? Everyone has an opinion about everything. If you're happy with what you're doing then go with it. > My intent was to demonstrate that you guys should come off that stash > of old chips you have squireled away. They are not doing you any good > and there is a community of chip collectors who would love to get > their hands on them. What good will they do collectors? Sit there and look pretty? I think that most collectors here would rather hang on to their chips in case they are needed some day. > But then, they are not here at the moment and I am, so I am more than > willing to "distribute" them to legitimate collectors for you. In > otherwords, I am willing to be the "middleman". I buy the chips from > you (for more than you think they are worth) and I then put them in > the hands of legitmate chip collectors. Most of us here know how to use eBay too. > Besides, why do you need a C8080A when a P8080A will work just as > well? I can get those for $5. Why do you need a C8080A? To complete your Beanie set? > In reality, most of the chips you might need can be obtained at very > reasonable prices or by simply trading one of us a chip we do not > already have. Or by visiting one of the numerous electronics surplus shops throughout the country. Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org From optimus at canit.se Mon Nov 19 05:36:18 2001 From: optimus at canit.se (Iggy Drougge) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:11:20 2005 Subject: Intel C8080A chip brings $565 on EBAY In-Reply-To: <001301c170a0$5e49fcf0$0100a8c0@sys1> Message-ID: <1378.723T900T7564421optimus@canit.se> John Galt skrev: Well, on the topic of idiots, top-quoting is not the smartest thing to do... >Why are chip collectors so frowned upon on this mailing list? Do you guys >think us chip collectors are out here busting up Intelec's, Altairs, and >IMSAI's to get the chips out of them or something? You aren't? >We are legitimate collectors just like you guys are. Only you collect rubbish. >Most "normal" people would say you guys are idiots >for preserving and collecting old computers and paying >2K+ for an old IMSAI 8080. I suppose they are. 2000 dollars is a lot of money. >Give me a break. >Better yet, give me all those old "worthless" purple C8080A's you have >laying around. I'll give you >$1 ea. for them so you won't feel like you're taking advantage of an >"idiot". If I had one, I think I'd rather be looking for an idiot than giving themaway, I'm afraid. Now, looking at old computer chips can be fun for a while, but they are essentially worthless, unless you are of an inclination similar to Tony's and have got an electron microscope. They are meant to run computers, not to sit there and do nothing. I have the same stance on people who collect computers and game just for keeping them, instead of using them. -- En ligne avec Thor 2.6a. Schont die Sockel, wenn ihr die Denkm?ler st?rzt. Sie k?nnten noch gebraucht werden. --- Stanislaw Jerzy Lec From gmphillips at earthlink.net Mon Nov 19 06:34:44 2001 From: gmphillips at earthlink.net (John Galt) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:11:20 2005 Subject: Intel C8080A chip brings $565 on EBAY References: Message-ID: <002d01c170f6$92a86620$0100a8c0@sys1> There's a rather small community of chip collectors. However, there are a few collectors who have been collecting for over 10 years now who have put togather pretty vast collections of literally thousands of chips. These collectors have pretty much seen everything. Its pretty rare now that something shows up that these collectors have never seen before and the fact that they have never seen it, by definiton makes it rare. It would be the same as if suddenly someone found two Intelec bit slice 3002 computers dated 1975 in a closet or something. Sure, there might could be more, but if they were common, you guys would have already seen one. As far as the color, chip collectors refer to that color chip as "purple". If you look at it next to a normal "gray" CerDIP, you can see the difference. Besides, it would not have mattered had it been black. The fact is, it's not the white/gold color of a normal Intel C8080A. The printing on the chip is also somewhat different. My guess is it's a late run C8080A that was put in the same package they used for some of the later C8085AH's. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Sellam Ismail" To: Sent: Monday, November 19, 2001 1:23 AM Subject: Re: Intel C8080A chip brings $565 on EBAY > On Sun, 18 Nov 2001, John Galt wrote: > > > Well, it was one of only two known rare purple Intel C8080A's > > Do you care to explain this? > > It certainly doesn't look purple in the photo. > > How do you know it is only one of two? Known by whom? Where do they come > from? If it is purple, why? What's the significance? > > > If you have any old Intel 4004, 8008, 4040, or 8080 microprocessors > > laying around, I want them. > > Sorry, I'm keeping mine. If I wanted them to end up on eBay I'd put them > there myself. > > Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival > -------------------------------------------------------------------------- ---- > International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org > > From news at kostecke.net Mon Nov 19 07:05:56 2001 From: news at kostecke.net (news) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:11:20 2005 Subject: No subject Message-ID: Newsgroups: mailinglist.classiccmp Path: gateway From: gmphillips@earthlink.net (John Galt) Subject: Re: Intel C8080A chip brings $565 on EBAY Date: 19 Nov 01 12:34:44 GMT Sender: Steve Kostecke MIME-Version: 1.0 Message-ID: <002d01c170f6$92a86620$0100a8c0@sys1> X-Priority: 3 Distribution: local X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4522.1200 Reply-To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org X-Mailing-List: classiccmp X-Mimeole: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4522.1200 X-Fetchmail-Warning: recipient address classiccmp@classiccmp.org didn't match any local name Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" X-Msmail-Priority: Normal Lines: 61 References: Organization: kostecke.net mail2news gateway X-Authentication-Warning: opal.tseinc.com: majordom set sender to owner-classiccmp@classiccmp.org using -f Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit There's a rather small community of chip collectors. However, there are a few collectors who have been collecting for over 10 years now who have put togather pretty vast collections of literally thousands of chips. These collectors have pretty much seen everything. Its pretty rare now that something shows up that these collectors have never seen before and the fact that they have never seen it, by definiton makes it rare. It would be the same as if suddenly someone found two Intelec bit slice 3002 computers dated 1975 in a closet or something. Sure, there might could be more, but if they were common, you guys would have already seen one. As far as the color, chip collectors refer to that color chip as "purple". If you look at it next to a normal "gray" CerDIP, you can see the difference. Besides, it would not have mattered had it been black. The fact is, it's not the white/gold color of a normal Intel C8080A. The printing on the chip is also somewhat different. My guess is it's a late run C8080A that was put in the same package they used for some of the later C8085AH's. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Sellam Ismail" To: Sent: Monday, November 19, 2001 1:23 AM Subject: Re: Intel C8080A chip brings $565 on EBAY > On Sun, 18 Nov 2001, John Galt wrote: > > > Well, it was one of only two known rare purple Intel C8080A's > > Do you care to explain this? > > It certainly doesn't look purple in the photo. > > How do you know it is only one of two? Known by whom? Where do they come > from? If it is purple, why? What's the significance? > > > If you have any old Intel 4004, 8008, 4040, or 8080 microprocessors > > laying around, I want them. > > Sorry, I'm keeping mine. If I wanted them to end up on eBay I'd put them > there myself. > > Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival > -------------------------------------------------------------------------- ---- > International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org > > From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Mon Nov 19 07:38:45 2001 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (Allison) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:11:20 2005 Subject: Intel C8080A chip brings $565 on EBAY Message-ID: <003401c170ff$841dc740$6b7b7b7b@ajp> From: John Galt >There's a rather small community of chip collectors. > >However, there are a few collectors who have been >collecting for over 10 years now who have put togather >pretty vast collections of literally thousands of chips. My only concern is they may be collecting junk, IE: chips that look good, may be rare but are DEAD/useless electronically. >It would be the same as if suddenly someone found >two Intelec bit slice 3002 computers dated 1975 in a closet or something. >Sure, there might could be more, but if they were common, you guys would >have already seen one. These were quite common and the basic chipset on an experimentors board was around $495 in 1977. Most were used then relagated to the engineering junk box. So I'd presume when you say rare, your referring to actively traded survivors as SBC colltors like me may already have one (not yet!). >As far as the color, chip collectors refer to that color >chip as "purple". If you look at it next to a normal >"gray" CerDIP, you can see the difference. Besides, >it would not have mattered had it been black. The fact >is, it's not the white/gold color of a normal Intel >C8080A. The printing on the chip is also somewhat different. My guess is >it's a late run C8080A that was It's very late run ceramic. Ceramic for chip substrates only comes from a few vendors one being a beer maker in the rockies a few in the far east and Europe. It was part of the reason why ceramic parts were more expensive and also a near must if the part was required to pass tests for hermetic sealing (military, space or other high stress apps). Ceramic aging/dating: Starting with the 1960s ceramic was white. early White examples were early military Flatpacks(RTL/DTL/TTL) 1101, 1103 ram 1702 eprom first brown parts I'd seen were 2708s brown (light) later dark brown Gray Gray with brownish cast Gray with purplish cast Those were the most common. Eproms were generaltionally in the common ceramic of the time. Allison From allain at panix.com Mon Nov 19 08:05:09 2001 From: allain at panix.com (John Allain) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:11:20 2005 Subject: Intel C8080A chip brings $565 on EBAY References: <1378.723T900T7564421optimus@canit.se> Message-ID: <004801c17103$330b3e60$8a0101ac@ibm23xhr06> >Why are chip collectors so frowned upon on this mailing list? One respondant doesn't represent the whole list, as you are now learning. If you are new here then welcome. John A. If you aren't, then my apologies. From news at kostecke.net Mon Nov 19 08:17:18 2001 From: news at kostecke.net (news) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:11:20 2005 Subject: No subject Message-ID: Newsgroups: mailinglist.classiccmp Path: gateway From: ajp166@bellatlantic.net (Allison) Subject: Re: Intel C8080A chip brings $565 on EBAY Date: 19 Nov 01 13:38:45 GMT Sender: Steve Kostecke MIME-Version: 1.0 Message-ID: <003401c170ff$841dc740$6b7b7b7b@ajp> X-Priority: 3 Distribution: local X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3155.0 Reply-To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org X-Mailing-List: classiccmp X-Mimeole: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3155.0 X-Fetchmail-Warning: recipient address classiccmp@classiccmp.org didn't match any local name Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" X-Msmail-Priority: Normal Lines: 72 Organization: kostecke.net mail2news gateway X-Authentication-Warning: opal.tseinc.com: majordom set sender to owner-classiccmp@classiccmp.org using -f Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: John Galt >There's a rather small community of chip collectors. > >However, there are a few collectors who have been >collecting for over 10 years now who have put togather >pretty vast collections of literally thousands of chips. My only concern is they may be collecting junk, IE: chips that look good, may be rare but are DEAD/useless electronically. >It would be the same as if suddenly someone found >two Intelec bit slice 3002 computers dated 1975 in a closet or something. >Sure, there might could be more, but if they were common, you guys would >have already seen one. These were quite common and the basic chipset on an experimentors board was around $495 in 1977. Most were used then relagated to the engineering junk box. So I'd presume when you say rare, your referring to actively traded survivors as SBC colltors like me may already have one (not yet!). >As far as the color, chip collectors refer to that color >chip as "purple". If you look at it next to a normal >"gray" CerDIP, you can see the difference. Besides, >it would not have mattered had it been black. The fact >is, it's not the white/gold color of a normal Intel >C8080A. The printing on the chip is also somewhat different. My guess is >it's a late run C8080A that was It's very late run ceramic. Ceramic for chip substrates only comes from a few vendors one being a beer maker in the rockies a few in the far east and Europe. It was part of the reason why ceramic parts were more expensive and also a near must if the part was required to pass tests for hermetic sealing (military, space or other high stress apps). Ceramic aging/dating: Starting with the 1960s ceramic was white. early White examples were early military Flatpacks(RTL/DTL/TTL) 1101, 1103 ram 1702 eprom first brown parts I'd seen were 2708s brown (light) later dark brown Gray Gray with brownish cast Gray with purplish cast Those were the most common. Eproms were generaltionally in the common ceramic of the time. Allison From news at kostecke.net Mon Nov 19 08:32:21 2001 From: news at kostecke.net (news) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:11:20 2005 Subject: No subject Message-ID: Newsgroups: mailinglist.classiccmp Path: gateway From: allain@panix.com (John Allain) Subject: Re: Intel C8080A chip brings $565 on EBAY Date: 19 Nov 01 14:05:09 GMT Sender: Steve Kostecke MIME-Version: 1.0 Message-ID: <004801c17103$330b3e60$8a0101ac@ibm23xhr06> X-Priority: 3 Distribution: local X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2615.200 Reply-To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org X-Mailing-List: classiccmp X-Mimeole: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2615.200 X-Fetchmail-Warning: recipient address classiccmp@classiccmp.org didn't match any local name Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" X-Msmail-Priority: Normal Lines: 11 References: <1378.723T900T7564421optimus@canit.se> Organization: kostecke.net mail2news gateway X-Authentication-Warning: opal.tseinc.com: majordom set sender to owner-classiccmp@classiccmp.org using -f Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit >Why are chip collectors so frowned upon on this mailing list? One respondant doesn't represent the whole list, as you are now learning. If you are new here then welcome. John A. If you aren't, then my apologies. From dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com Mon Nov 19 08:37:03 2001 From: dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com (Douglas Quebbeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:11:20 2005 Subject: Intel C8080A chip brings $565 on EBAY Message-ID: <7A9BACCEF0171D4FB77019F5104CDD37225930@jeffserver.tegjeff.com> > It's very late run ceramic. Ceramic for chip substrates only comes from a > few vendors one being a beer maker in the rockies a few in the far east and > Europe. heh... actually, Adolph Coors spun-off its non-brewery assets in 1992 into ACX Technologies, and most recently, CoorsTek (formerly Coors Ceramics) was spun-off into a wholly separate company on Jan 1, 2000. -dq From jfoust at threedee.com Mon Nov 19 08:32:46 2001 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:11:20 2005 Subject: Intel C8080A chip brings $565 on EBAY In-Reply-To: <001301c170a0$5e49fcf0$0100a8c0@sys1> References: Message-ID: <5.0.0.25.0.20011119083154.0240e1a8@pc> At 09:17 PM 11/18/2001 -0500, you wrote: >Better yet, give me all those old "worthless" purple C8080A's you have >laying around. I'll give you >$1 ea. for them so you won't feel like you're taking advantage of an >"idiot". No, these complainers about the free market's prices are just sad that their warehouse is full of junk that doesn't fetch high prices. I can't believe that any nerd on this mailing list would denigrate a chip collector. It's like the original Swiftian little-endian versus big-endian argument. But then again, maybe I think this way only because if I'm going to junk a piece of unusable computer equipment, or if I discover an unrecoverable wreck, I'll always yank the interesting chips. On the other hand, wearing a name tag that says "John Galt" in a room full of techies is an unpardonably cheesy offense. - John From celt at chisp.net Mon Nov 19 08:55:18 2001 From: celt at chisp.net (Michael Maginnis) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:11:20 2005 Subject: Mattell football 2 1978 References: <88.f75fddd.2929d167@aol.com> Message-ID: <3BF91D56.802@chisp.net> SUPRDAVE@aol.com wrote: > In a message dated 11/18/2001 9:37:31 PM Eastern Standard Time, > gehrich@tampabay.rr.com writes: > > << At 08:50 PM 11/18/01 -0500, you wrote: > >Where can I purchase Mattell football 2 1978? > > for what platform? >> > > I'm sure he's talking a handheld game. > > Didn't Mattel make a cart version of this game for their Intellivision & Intellivision2 game consoles? Mike From edick at idcomm.com Mon Nov 19 09:13:23 2001 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:11:20 2005 Subject: Intel C8080A chip brings $565 on EBAY References: <20011119025154.HEKA10804.tomts19-srv.bellnexxia.net@duron> Message-ID: <001e01c1710c$bb777940$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> It's always a possiblility, John. I scrapped an NBI word processor, saving the 8008 CPU in order to make a tie tack out of it. That was in 1982, however. Not everybody has the same prejudices/viewpoints, hence, some pretty ugly arguments. There are some guys who won't dismember a seemingly irreprarble system just for parts, while, I, for example, see most things as a potential source of parts unless it is readily restorable to working condition. I recently learned that a late model CoCo has a WD1772 in it. I'd quickly remove the FDC and scarp the rest if I had one of those available. That would make some guys' skin crawl. Almost every point in between the extremes has some adherents to that position. Dick ----- Original Message ----- From: To: Sent: Sunday, November 18, 2001 2:55 PM Subject: Re: Intel C8080A chip brings $565 on EBAY > > From: "John Galt" > > To: > > Subject: Re: Intel C8080A chip brings $565 on EBAY > > Date: Sun, 18 Nov 2001 21:17:40 -0500 > > Reply-to: classiccmp@classiccmp.org > > > Why are chip collectors so frowned upon on this mailing list? Do you guys > > think us chip collectors are out here busting up Intelec's, Altairs, and > > IMSAI's to get the chips out of them or something? > > > > We are legitimate collectors just like you guys are. > > What is your intentions?! Collectors is catch-all word, some good > some bad! > > > > > Most "normal" people would say you guys are idiots > > for preserving and collecting old computers and paying > > 2K+ for an old IMSAI 8080. > > That $2K for Imsai is the supply and demand fostered by clueless but > greedy people who wanted to make this a collection stuff as a cash > cow than simply using it and fixing it and play with it, that > latter is amirable, former is frowned upon. Also Imsai is buggy and > botched up box. There's better built and properly designed S-100 > boxens to play with. > > Your original message didn't introduce yourself clearly first. > The way the message was written, sounded like business, intentions of > making $ and this message also doesn't reflect of these people on > this CC list. This is exactly what speared thru that wasp nest and > angry wasps flying out. > > > > > Give me a break. > > Not a chance!...you have lot to explain to that CC list then > that uproar will settle down. > > Cheers, > > Wizard > > From edick at idcomm.com Mon Nov 19 09:15:24 2001 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:11:20 2005 Subject: Auction References: <20011118232701.F20390-100000@lepton.subatomix.com> Message-ID: <003201c1710d$03537840$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> Careful how you use those terms, Bro ... BigBrother's listening/watching ... Dick ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jeffrey S. Sharp" To: Sent: Sunday, November 18, 2001 10:30 PM Subject: Re: Auction > On Mon, 19 Nov 2001, China panyu Auction LTD wrote: > > > Guangzhou Panyu Hengli Resort of Agriculture is [blah blah ...] > > Can non-subscribers post to this list? If not, it looks like the spammers > are getting smarter. Now, where did I put my thermonuclear weaponry? > > > -- > Jeffrey S. Sharp > jss@subatomix.com > > From edick at idcomm.com Mon Nov 19 09:18:38 2001 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:11:20 2005 Subject: OT: paging MAC expert(s) --- What's a Performa? References: <200111181927.TAA15747@citadel.metropolis.local> Message-ID: <003a01c1710d$76e4bc60$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> I've drawn the conclusion that the only real memory-hog is the Netscape browser. A couple of folks have advised me to install a 32MB simm for that purpose alone. It would certainly be a shame to make the system buckle when browsing just because it lacks RAM. Does anyone know otherwise? It would be a waste to invest in expanding the RAM if it's unwarranted, though I've never heard complaints about too much RAM. Dick ----- Original Message ----- From: "Stan Barr" To: Sent: Sunday, November 18, 2001 12:27 PM Subject: Re: OT: paging MAC expert(s) --- What's a Performa? > > Yes, I saw that. What's still a little murky is how best to exploit the thing > > in the context of "normal" (if there is such a thing) home computing. I > > certainly don't know what's normal. There's software installed that's > > undocumented (unsupported by registration doc's), so it will have to go, but I'm > > not interested in going out and buying software to load the thing up so that it > > can do some basic correspondence. They both have Claris Works loaded, but since > > there's no CD and no doc, I have to say it's got to be flushed. Too bad since > > that purports to have all the stuff that's needed. There's even a (single) copy > > of the manual suggesting that the software stayed wherever these boxes came > > from. (makes my skin crawl to end a sentence with a preposition, but it would > > sound too "stilted" to construct the sentence correctly ... ) > > These machines shipped with Claris Works pre-installed and on the system > CD - at least they did here in the UK. Claris Works is real easy to use > and comes with comprehensive on-line help - click on the question mark > icon, top right, when in Claris Works. I still use it for my normal word > processing, you don't need much horsepower for that! > > Video equipped models also came with Avid Videoshop. > > > -- > Cheers, > Stan Barr stanb@dial.pipex.com > > The future was never like this! > > > From csmith at amdocs.com Mon Nov 19 09:24:43 2001 From: csmith at amdocs.com (Christopher Smith) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:11:20 2005 Subject: OT: paging MAC expert(s) --- What's a Performa? Message-ID: <3B55D7F383B0D31197D9009027541CBF1170DE89@cmiexch1.cmi.itds.com> > -----Original Message----- > From: Richard Erlacher [mailto:edick@idcomm.com] > There's a program (somewhere) called "FINDER," though I'm not > convinced it's for > the purpose of finding something. What I need to find out is > how to find the > FINDER. Then, of course, I have to figure out how to drive > it ... will > it ever end ... Ahh yes. :) Having been employed as a Mac-only programmer for a while, let me assure you that there is a program called "Finder," which, in fact, is not for finding things at all. Finder is the Macintosh shell. Best not to confuse the users with terms like "file manager," "shell," "interface," "front-end," "button two" or the like. ;) Regards, Chris Christopher Smith, Perl Developer Amdocs - Champaign, IL /usr/bin/perl -e ' print((~"\x95\xc4\xe3"^"Just Another Perl Hacker.")."\x08!\n"); ' From edick at idcomm.com Mon Nov 19 09:28:52 2001 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:11:20 2005 Subject: Intel C8080A chip brings $565 on EBAY References: <1378.723T900T7564421optimus@canit.se> Message-ID: <004a01c1710e$e614fae0$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> Careful, now ... there are lots of guys around who collect old machines with little hope of ever getting them to run, even if they did have the right sort of AC power available. I know at least one such guy who's got several bits of "BigIron" from back when "real men" used mainframes. To me, even the 500 THz Pentium XXV with 64TB of 2 ps RAM and 100 Exabytes of HD space is junk if the PSU is down. I've still got rails and rails of old memory, logic, CPU's etc, and those are "just parts" as far as I'm concerned. I give 'em away when there's a need, and, well, they don't take up as much space as old computers do. Dick ----- Original Message ----- From: "Iggy Drougge" To: "John Galt" Sent: Monday, November 19, 2001 4:36 AM Subject: Re: Intel C8080A chip brings $565 on EBAY > John Galt skrev: > > Well, on the topic of idiots, top-quoting is not the smartest thing to do... > > >Why are chip collectors so frowned upon on this mailing list? Do you guys > >think us chip collectors are out here busting up Intelec's, Altairs, and > >IMSAI's to get the chips out of them or something? > > You aren't? > > >We are legitimate collectors just like you guys are. > > Only you collect rubbish. > > >Most "normal" people would say you guys are idiots > >for preserving and collecting old computers and paying > >2K+ for an old IMSAI 8080. > > I suppose they are. 2000 dollars is a lot of money. > > >Give me a break. > > >Better yet, give me all those old "worthless" purple C8080A's you have > >laying around. I'll give you > >$1 ea. for them so you won't feel like you're taking advantage of an > >"idiot". > > If I had one, I think I'd rather be looking for an idiot than giving themaway, > I'm afraid. > > Now, looking at old computer chips can be fun for a while, but they are > essentially worthless, unless you are of an inclination similar to Tony's and > have got an electron microscope. They are meant to run computers, not to sit > there and do nothing. I have the same stance on people who collect computers > and game just for keeping them, instead of using them. > > -- > En ligne avec Thor 2.6a. > > Schont die Sockel, wenn ihr die Denkm?ler st?rzt. Sie k?nnten noch gebraucht > werden. > --- Stanislaw Jerzy Lec > > > From edick at idcomm.com Mon Nov 19 09:30:27 2001 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:11:20 2005 Subject: Intel C8080A chip brings $565 on EBAY References: <003401c170ff$841dc740$6b7b7b7b@ajp> Message-ID: <005201c1710f$1f02a640$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> I've got one pretty old MOTOROLA device, in a 40-pin DIP, the identity of which is a complete mystery to me. In fact, I may have tossed it not long ago, but all it said on it aside from a MOT date code was "Sample." Maybe it was a mechanincal ... Dick ----- Original Message ----- From: "Allison" To: Sent: Monday, November 19, 2001 6:38 AM Subject: Re: Intel C8080A chip brings $565 on EBAY > From: John Galt > > >There's a rather small community of chip collectors. > > > >However, there are a few collectors who have been > >collecting for over 10 years now who have put togather > >pretty vast collections of literally thousands of chips. > > > My only concern is they may be collecting junk, IE: chips that > look good, may be rare but are DEAD/useless electronically. > > >It would be the same as if suddenly someone found > >two Intelec bit slice 3002 computers dated 1975 in a closet or something. > >Sure, there might could be more, but if they were common, you guys would > >have already seen one. > > > These were quite common and the basic chipset on an experimentors board > was around $495 in 1977. Most were used then relagated to the engineering > junk box. So I'd presume when you say rare, your referring to actively > traded > survivors as SBC colltors like me may already have one (not yet!). > > >As far as the color, chip collectors refer to that color > >chip as "purple". If you look at it next to a normal > >"gray" CerDIP, you can see the difference. Besides, > >it would not have mattered had it been black. The fact > >is, it's not the white/gold color of a normal Intel > >C8080A. The printing on the chip is also somewhat different. My guess is > >it's a late run C8080A that was > > > It's very late run ceramic. Ceramic for chip substrates only comes from a > few > vendors one being a beer maker in the rockies a few in the far east and > Europe. > It was part of the reason why ceramic parts were more expensive and also > a near must if the part was required to pass tests for hermetic sealing > (military, > space or other high stress apps). > > Ceramic aging/dating: > > Starting with the 1960s ceramic was white. > > early White > > examples were > early military Flatpacks(RTL/DTL/TTL) > 1101, 1103 ram > 1702 eprom > > first brown parts I'd seen were 2708s > > brown (light) > later dark brown > Gray > Gray with brownish cast > Gray with purplish cast > > Those were the most common. Eproms were generaltionally in the common > ceramic of the time. > > Allison > > > > > > From csmith at amdocs.com Mon Nov 19 09:32:40 2001 From: csmith at amdocs.com (Christopher Smith) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:11:20 2005 Subject: OT: paging MAC expert(s) --- What's a Performa? Message-ID: <3B55D7F383B0D31197D9009027541CBF1170DE8B@cmiexch1.cmi.itds.com> > -----Original Message----- > From: Richard Erlacher [mailto:edick@idcomm.com] > version of the OS. surely there's some way to determine what > hardware the > machine thinks it "sees," though. No. It's one of the things that Apple decided to leave out in the name of simplicity. You'll need to find a program to do it. "Apple System Profiler" as suggested, will likely work. You may have to go find yourself a copy. Have you checked Apple's web-page? Regards, Chris Christopher Smith, Perl Developer Amdocs - Champaign, IL /usr/bin/perl -e ' print((~"\x95\xc4\xe3"^"Just Another Perl Hacker.")."\x08!\n"); ' From edick at idcomm.com Mon Nov 19 09:34:59 2001 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:11:20 2005 Subject: Intel C8080A chip brings $565 on EBAY References: <7A9BACCEF0171D4FB77019F5104CDD37225930@jeffserver.tegjeff.com> Message-ID: <006401c1710f$bfd2dcc0$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> Back in the early days of 64k DRAMs, the COORS ceramics were described as having too much radioactivity for use in high-density memories. I'm not sure that was, in fact, the case, but somebody seems to have thought so. Do you suppose they fixed that? Coors was a leader, in the '60's in porcelain tooling and other such oddities, not to mention having "perfected" the draw-and-iron process for making thin-walled aluminum beverage cans. Dick ----- Original Message ----- From: "Douglas Quebbeman" To: Sent: Monday, November 19, 2001 7:37 AM Subject: RE: Intel C8080A chip brings $565 on EBAY > > It's very late run ceramic. Ceramic for chip substrates only comes from a > > few vendors one being a beer maker in the rockies a few in the far east and > > Europe. > > heh... actually, Adolph Coors spun-off its non-brewery assets in 1992 > into ACX Technologies, and most recently, CoorsTek (formerly Coors > Ceramics) was spun-off into a wholly separate company on Jan 1, 2000. > > -dq > > From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Sun Nov 18 10:13:51 2001 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (Ben Franchuk) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:11:20 2005 Subject: Intel C8080A chip brings $565 on EBAY References: Message-ID: <3BF7DE3F.7297792F@jetnet.ab.ca> Sellam Ismail wrote: > > We are legitimate collectors just like you guys are. > There's no such thing as a legitimate collector ;) I collect junk, does that count? I find that objects sold on ebay seems be over priced with starting bids. Most items that sell are priced way out of my budget. Case in point - a uncommon computer game sold for over $60. The same game sells for $35 new. Go figure. Ben Franchuk. -- Save the whales -- collect the whole set! From csmith at amdocs.com Mon Nov 19 09:42:36 2001 From: csmith at amdocs.com (Christopher Smith) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:11:20 2005 Subject: OT: paging MAC expert(s) --- What's a Performa? Message-ID: <3B55D7F383B0D31197D9009027541CBF1170DE8C@cmiexch1.cmi.itds.com> > -----Original Message----- > From: Richard Erlacher [mailto:edick@idcomm.com] > however. I tried to > initialize a diskette, and had to wait about 5 minutes after > the process ended > before it would let me do anything else, though it did > eventually let me back at > it. That's pretty normal. It will take it a while to flush buffers and wake back up -- rather, that's what I assume it's doing... :) > Funny thing, though, is that I remember people claiming that > MAC OS was > multitasking. Windows allows me to play a game or whatever > when I start off on > a time-consuming task. This guy doesn't seem to want to do > that. I had to try > it on the second machine just to verify that the thing was > not just bum > hardware. It worked the same on the second box as well. This gets really tangled right about now. What's your deffinition of multitasking? Is the hardware capable of it? Yes. The software? Well, It's co-operative. If you'd asked microsoft about their definition before Abomination '95, they'd have told you that co-operative multitasking is still multitasking too... I have yet to figure out why they couldn't have done the disk reads/writes in the background while you do some other things. I believe it's likely to be a "left-over" from early days. Funny thing is that if you can find a file-manager or the like that will format disks/copy files, it's pretty likely that you can work around this particular problem. Regards, Chris Christopher Smith, Perl Developer Amdocs - Champaign, IL /usr/bin/perl -e ' print((~"\x95\xc4\xe3"^"Just Another Perl Hacker.")."\x08!\n"); ' From csmith at amdocs.com Mon Nov 19 09:50:38 2001 From: csmith at amdocs.com (Christopher Smith) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:11:20 2005 Subject: OT: paging MAC expert(s) --- What's a Performa? Message-ID: <3B55D7F383B0D31197D9009027541CBF1170DE8D@cmiexch1.cmi.itds.com> > -----Original Message----- > From: Richard Erlacher [mailto:edick@idcomm.com] > Not to create an issue, but under Windows, that doesn't often > happen, though > it's possible, I guess. What could > be going on? You do realize that you ought to be comparing Mac system 7.x with Windows 3.1? Granted, the OS was frozen in that state for a very long time, but originally, that was its primary alternative. Windows 3.1 is not famous for being a real-time system, either ;) Regards, Chris Christopher Smith, Perl Developer Amdocs - Champaign, IL /usr/bin/perl -e ' print((~"\x95\xc4\xe3"^"Just Another Perl Hacker.")."\x08!\n"); ' From jhellige at earthlink.net Mon Nov 19 06:25:45 2001 From: jhellige at earthlink.net (Jeff Hellige) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:11:20 2005 Subject: Intel C8080A chip brings $565 on EBAY In-Reply-To: <1378.723T900T7564421optimus@canit.se> References: <1378.723T900T7564421optimus@canit.se> Message-ID: <01Nov19.110754est.119248@gateway.mediacen.navy.mil> >Now, looking at old computer chips can be fun for a while, but they are >essentially worthless, unless you are of an inclination similar to Tony's and >have got an electron microscope. They are meant to run computers, not to sit >there and do nothing. I have the same stance on people who collect computers >and game just for keeping them, instead of using them. I really don't see the need for the name calling though as, regardless of motivation, all collectors are helping to preserve items that would otherwise likely get tossed as trash. We all have different interests, motivations and goals but the end result is very much the same. In the future, one of us may need the assistance of one of these chip collectors in order to aquire some obscure chip we can't find anywhere else. Jeff -- Home of the TRS-80 Model 2000 FAQ File http://www.cchaven.com http://www.geocities.com/siliconvalley/lakes/6757 From dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com Mon Nov 19 09:56:26 2001 From: dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com (Douglas Quebbeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:11:20 2005 Subject: Intel C8080A chip brings $565 on EBAY Message-ID: <7A9BACCEF0171D4FB77019F5104CDD37225935@jeffserver.tegjeff.com> > On the other hand, wearing a name tag that says "John Galt" > in a room full of techies is an unpardonably cheesy offense. What would Bob the Lizard say? "...more gin..." -- No Tourbots From edick at idcomm.com Mon Nov 19 10:03:49 2001 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:11:20 2005 Subject: OT: paging MAC expert(s) --- What's a Performa? References: <3B55D7F383B0D31197D9009027541CBF1170DE8B@cmiexch1.cmi.itds.com> Message-ID: <000c01c17113$c6f13b60$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> There does appear to be a problem with transporting files/data from a computer to a MAC. Apparently, if I move things to a PC diskette, I can only read the content as data on the MAC, so there's got to be another way to get stuff from the web to these MAC's. I'm not patient enough to wait for a transfer at 2400 baud on those GV Teleport Bronze modems. Dick ----- Original Message ----- From: "Christopher Smith" To: Sent: Monday, November 19, 2001 8:32 AM Subject: RE: OT: paging MAC expert(s) --- What's a Performa? > > -----Original Message----- > > From: Richard Erlacher [mailto:edick@idcomm.com] > > > version of the OS. surely there's some way to determine what > > hardware the > > machine thinks it "sees," though. > > No. It's one of the things that Apple decided to leave out in the name of > simplicity. You'll need to find a program to do it. "Apple System > Profiler" as suggested, will likely work. You may have to go find yourself > a copy. Have you checked Apple's web-page? > > Regards, > > Chris > > > Christopher Smith, Perl Developer > Amdocs - Champaign, IL > > /usr/bin/perl -e ' > print((~"\x95\xc4\xe3"^"Just Another Perl Hacker.")."\x08!\n"); > ' > > > From csmith at amdocs.com Mon Nov 19 10:03:27 2001 From: csmith at amdocs.com (Christopher Smith) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:11:20 2005 Subject: OT: paging MAC expert(s) --- What's a Performa? Message-ID: <3B55D7F383B0D31197D9009027541CBF1170DE8E@cmiexch1.cmi.itds.com> > -----Original Message----- > From: gwynp@artware.qc.ca [mailto:gwynp@artware.qc.ca] > You're best bet is to buy a Mac Addict or other magazine that > has a CD-ROM > (you do have a CD drive?). Older Macs don't "boot-strap" > very well. Yes, > you can get a SEA (self-extracting archive) of Stuffit, but > it won't do > you much good. Mac OS has 2 forks per file. One for data, the other > for code. When you download a file or when you copy a file from a PC > formated disk everything goes into the data fork. Doing something > equivalent to "chmod +x file.sea" is impossible on Mac OS without an > external program, like say Stuffit. *sigh* If you are > lucky, you'll have > a recent version of Mac OS which includes Stuffit. Well, if you'd like a home-baked solution (possibly home half-baked. :), you can write Macintosh 1.4 meg disks on a peesee type machine (or unix box). I can possibly provide code for an hfs loadable module for linux, and a rather generic set of c programs that will read/write mac filesystems. With that software, and an archive that you can extract the stuffit binary from, you'd be able to write the proper resource fork to the disk as well, and have the macintosh know what to do with your program. > I find this to be one of the most incredible "features" of > Mac OS. Apart > from that, as long as you have a real computer nearby, using > a Mac isn't > that bad. I feel the need to defend this "feature." In so much as this allows you to separate data from code, this is a wonderful idea. The problem, really, is that apple left their o/s unfinished, and didn't include the proper utilities to manipulate these things that the system depends so heavily upon. Regards, Chris Christopher Smith, Perl Developer Amdocs - Champaign, IL /usr/bin/perl -e ' print((~"\x95\xc4\xe3"^"Just Another Perl Hacker.")."\x08!\n"); ' From kurok002 at tc.umn.edu Mon Nov 19 11:08:19 2001 From: kurok002 at tc.umn.edu (David Kuroki) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:11:20 2005 Subject: What is a RL02K-DC? Message-ID: <3BF93C81.546C8923@tc.umn.edu> I recently found a RL02K-DC cartridge in storage here at work. I was just curious to know if they are worth anything today? Are they still being used?? -- University of Minnesota Cancer Center 590 CCRB MMC 494 420 Delaware Street S.E. Minneapolis,MN 55455 E-mail:kurok002@tc.umn.edu Phone: (612)626-4323 Fax:(612)624-3913 From allain at panix.com Mon Nov 19 10:04:47 2001 From: allain at panix.com (John Allain) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:11:20 2005 Subject: OT: paging MAC expert(s) --- What's a Performa? References: <200111181927.TAA15747@citadel.metropolis.local> <003a01c1710d$76e4bc60$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> Message-ID: <012801c17113$e9f43ea0$8a0101ac@ibm23xhr06> > I've drawn the conclusion that the only real memory-hog is the > Netscape browser. Mildly disagree. I especially like Netscape because they offered (and apparently still offer*) 4.08 Netscape which is fairly modern and works in memory as small as 8MB (with 16MB being "hog heaven"). That level of classic support has to be praised on this list. * http://home.netscape.com/download/archive.html?cp=dowarc John A. From edick at idcomm.com Mon Nov 19 10:08:00 2001 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:11:20 2005 Subject: OT: paging MAC expert(s) --- What's a Performa? References: <3B55D7F383B0D31197D9009027541CBF1170DE8C@cmiexch1.cmi.itds.com> Message-ID: <001401c17114$5c75e780$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> So far it's not a problem, as the system has degenerated somewhat more, and I'm probably going to hose off the hard disk and start over, if that's possible. That way I'll know what's there, as well as knowing that what's there is supposed to be there. I'm quite sure I'll be unable to do much more with these until after the upcoming holiday. However, I appreciate the continued advice, as I have to digest it and figure out exactly what it means in terms of what I have to do in order to make these boxes known and stabile. Dick ----- Original Message ----- From: "Christopher Smith" To: Sent: Monday, November 19, 2001 8:42 AM Subject: RE: OT: paging MAC expert(s) --- What's a Performa? > > -----Original Message----- > > From: Richard Erlacher [mailto:edick@idcomm.com] > > > however. I tried to > > initialize a diskette, and had to wait about 5 minutes after > > the process ended > > before it would let me do anything else, though it did > > eventually let me back at > > it. > > That's pretty normal. It will take it a while to flush buffers and wake > back up -- rather, that's what I assume it's doing... :) > > > Funny thing, though, is that I remember people claiming that > > MAC OS was > > multitasking. Windows allows me to play a game or whatever > > when I start off on > > a time-consuming task. This guy doesn't seem to want to do > > that. I had to try > > it on the second machine just to verify that the thing was > > not just bum > > hardware. It worked the same on the second box as well. > > This gets really tangled right about now. What's your deffinition of > multitasking? Is the hardware capable of it? Yes. The software? Well, > It's co-operative. If you'd asked microsoft about their definition before > Abomination '95, they'd have told you that co-operative multitasking is > still multitasking too... > > I have yet to figure out why they couldn't have done the disk reads/writes > in the background while you do some other things. I believe it's likely to > be a "left-over" from early days. > > Funny thing is that if you can find a file-manager or the like that will > format disks/copy files, it's pretty likely that you can work around this > particular problem. > > Regards, > > Chris > > > Christopher Smith, Perl Developer > Amdocs - Champaign, IL > > /usr/bin/perl -e ' > print((~"\x95\xc4\xe3"^"Just Another Perl Hacker.")."\x08!\n"); > ' > > > From edick at idcomm.com Mon Nov 19 10:19:38 2001 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:11:20 2005 Subject: OT: paging MAC expert(s) --- What's a Performa? References: <3B55D7F383B0D31197D9009027541CBF1170DE8D@cmiexch1.cmi.itds.com> Message-ID: <001a01c17115$fcd2a640$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> That is true, isn't it? The WIN/DOS that went with the Performa 640, which had the Intel CPU as well as the 'LC040, was 3.11/6.22. I was working more from the experience with Windows that I'd had more recently. My latest Windows, BTW, is '98SE, and, until they fix some of the very fundamental problems, like non-working OS utilities, e.g. Backup, I'm not getting any more M$ OS products. I'm told it may be a long wait, BTW. This practice of theirs, of buying a non-functional cast-off from some financially-troubled software company and then integrating it into their OS is, in fact, an example of their "monopolistic practices" since they've no intention of supporting the product as an intrinsic function of their OS, though that's what they claim, as in the case of Internet Explorer, it is. Since you can't go to anyone else for a competing OS product, I guess they figure you're screwed, which is how I see it. Dick ----- Original Message ----- From: "Christopher Smith" To: Sent: Monday, November 19, 2001 8:50 AM Subject: RE: OT: paging MAC expert(s) --- What's a Performa? > > -----Original Message----- > > From: Richard Erlacher [mailto:edick@idcomm.com] > > > Not to create an issue, but under Windows, that doesn't often > > happen, though > > it's possible, I guess. What could > > be going on? > > You do realize that you ought to be comparing Mac system 7.x with Windows > 3.1? Granted, the OS was frozen in that state for a very long time, but > originally, that was its primary alternative. > > Windows 3.1 is not famous for being a real-time system, either ;) > > Regards, > > Chris > > > Christopher Smith, Perl Developer > Amdocs - Champaign, IL > > /usr/bin/perl -e ' > print((~"\x95\xc4\xe3"^"Just Another Perl Hacker.")."\x08!\n"); > ' > > > From dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com Mon Nov 19 10:23:02 2001 From: dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com (Douglas Quebbeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:11:20 2005 Subject: Intel C8080A chip brings $565 on EBAY Message-ID: <7A9BACCEF0171D4FB77019F5104CDD37225936@jeffserver.tegjeff.com> > Back in the early days of 64k DRAMs, the COORS ceramics were described as having > too much radioactivity for use in high-density memories. I'm not sure that was, > in fact, the case, but somebody seems to have thought so. Do you suppose they > fixed that? Coors was a leader, in the '60's in porcelain tooling and other > such oddities, not to mention having "perfected" the draw-and-iron process for > making thin-walled aluminum beverage cans. My 8k EconoRAM IV, one of the first S-100 boards to use DRAM, used the very chips that supposedly had that problem. I've been told mine are OK, but it used to be a bit flaky; however, I always blamed that on the state of the early S-100 systems and my soldering work on the SOL to which it was attached... I solder *much* better now... -dq From curt at atari-history.com Mon Nov 19 10:44:42 2001 From: curt at atari-history.com (Curt Vendel) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:11:20 2005 Subject: Corvus Floppy Drive? References: <001f01c16ca0$2af63430$0a00a8c0@cvendel> <200111140047.fAE0l1O57491@daemonweed.reanimators.org> <000d01c16cb6$24381f30$0a00a8c0@cvendel> <200111140358.fAE3wSv62823@daemonweed.reanimators.org> <001801c16d24$31e954f0$3135ff0a@cvendel> <200111190355.fAJ3tXE34985@daemonweed.reanimators.org> Message-ID: <004d01c17119$7eaf8e00$0a00a8c0@cvendel> Frank, Great info, I'll work with the TIFF's and see if I can clean them up a little and mess around with making one and try it out. Curt ----- Original Message ----- From: "Frank McConnell" To: Sent: Sunday, November 18, 2001 10:55 PM Subject: Re: Corvus Floppy Drive? > "Curt Vendel" wrote: > (Re: Corvus floppy disk controllers) > > If you run across the schematic I would be willing to pay for any copying > > and postage, thanks again Frank. > > Take a look at: > > http://www.reanimators.org/tmp/corvus-fdc.d300.tiff > http://www.reanimators.org/tmp/corvus-fdc.d600.tiff > > Both are TIFF class F group 4 scans, one is at 300 DPI, one is at 600 > DPI. The "original" that I have is a crappy photocopy so, well, good > luck reading them. I'll talk to Al and see if he wants to adopt these > or point me to a better scan. > > The 8" floppy controller also has a space on the board for a > 34-pin connector, but it's not stuffed. > > I got this controller and schematic from an advertisement in Computer > Shopper in the mid-to-late 1980s, offering an 8" floppy controller for > the Apple ][. Sadly, at the time I didn't have a WDC 1793 data sheet > so my efforts at programming the thing were frustrated and I got > distracted by other things. > > Then there's the 5.25" floppy drive. I got that out too and had > a look at it. > > The drive is a Corvus model FLP-5, Rev C, s/n 404-G1018-. It's a > metal upright case screwed together and to a half-height 5.25" floppy > drive, in this case a TEC FB504 (which is a double-sided "quad > density" 720KB drive, so I'm guessing 96 tracks per inch) strapped for > DS0 and with terminating resistor pack installed. > > The 5.25" drive is connected to a different controller. The > silkscreen on the board calls it a "BUFFERED FLOPPY CONTROLLER", and > there's a handwritten part number, "8010-10149 REV A". It's laid out > differently and is clearly a different design: it's got a NEC D765AC > FDC, and also has a power connector through which the controller card > supplies power to the drive; the power cable and a 34-pin flat cable are > bundled together in a sort of plastic zip-lock wrapper. > > I've no idea what this 5.25" drive was used with. Along about 1996 > there were some cleanouts of cupboards and storage rooms at The > Wollongong Group (where I worked at the time), and there was this > drive and controller (which I got) and a Corvus hard disk (which I > didn't get). I didn't see a Concept there. I do know that several > folks came from Corvus to Wollongong in the mid-1980s (before I got > there) and guess that they brought this stuff with them. > > -Frank McConnell > From edick at idcomm.com Mon Nov 19 10:46:21 2001 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:11:20 2005 Subject: OT: paging MAC expert(s) --- What's a Performa? References: <200111181927.TAA15747@citadel.metropolis.local> <003a01c1710d$76e4bc60$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> <012801c17113$e9f43ea0$8a0101ac@ibm23xhr06> Message-ID: <004001c17119$b83840e0$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> Have you got hands-on experience with Netscrape on the MAC with <20 MB? That makes a difference, since I can then configure both boxes the same way, having the required parts in house. It seems that of the two 32MB simms I've got left, only one is a "for-sure" functional one. The other, ... well ..., lets just say I'm not so sure. Dick ----- Original Message ----- From: "John Allain" To: Sent: Monday, November 19, 2001 9:04 AM Subject: Re: OT: paging MAC expert(s) --- What's a Performa? > > I've drawn the conclusion that the only real memory-hog is the > > Netscape browser. > > Mildly disagree. I especially like Netscape because they offered (and > apparently still offer*) 4.08 Netscape which is fairly modern and works in > memory as small as 8MB (with 16MB being "hog heaven"). That level > of classic support has to be praised on this list. > * http://home.netscape.com/download/archive.html?cp=dowarc > > John A. > > From edick at idcomm.com Mon Nov 19 10:58:37 2001 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:11:20 2005 Subject: Intel C8080A chip brings $565 on EBAY References: <7A9BACCEF0171D4FB77019F5104CDD37225936@jeffserver.tegjeff.com> Message-ID: <004601c1711b$705a3420$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> I'm not sure that the Econoram IV was one of the boards that used those 64k-bit DRAMs. Did it? This alpha-particle issue didn't come up with the 4K and 16K dram devices. It only surfaced when the density went up to 64K-bits and the supply went to a single 5-volt Vcc. The first context in which I recall the incidence of packaging-induced alpha-particle-hits causing a problem was with 64K-bit DRAMs. There was a component of this problem that was characteristic of the device family, and was later mitigated by adding an XOR buffer (XOR-ing data with one of the address lines) to the data to equalize otherwise random charge distribution throughout the device. Needless to say, I was never convinced, myself, that all the information about the then-new 5-volt-only DRAMs was on the level, as much of it sounded like folklore. The fact that the industry went to a logic fix suggests it wasn't without merit, however. There were plenty of other reasons why various DRAM circuits didn't work terribly well, most dealing with timing and buffering. Once the S-100 became dominated by Z80's, the use of various features of the Z80, not present in the 8080 round which the bus was designed, began to cause interoperability problems on the S-100, as a consequence of which it became advisable to have DRAM boards that were either made or certified by the CPU maker. Several vendors made DRAM boards that worked and played quite well with others, but Godbout/CompuPro was not one of them. One couldn't even rely on those working with older Godbout products in the system. Dick ----- Original Message ----- From: "Douglas Quebbeman" To: Sent: Monday, November 19, 2001 9:23 AM Subject: RE: Intel C8080A chip brings $565 on EBAY > > Back in the early days of 64k DRAMs, the COORS ceramics were described as > having > > too much radioactivity for use in high-density memories. I'm not sure that > was, > > in fact, the case, but somebody seems to have thought so. Do you suppose > they > > fixed that? Coors was a leader, in the '60's in porcelain tooling and other > > such oddities, not to mention having "perfected" the draw-and-iron process > for > > making thin-walled aluminum beverage cans. > > My 8k EconoRAM IV, one of the first S-100 boards to use DRAM, used the > very chips that supposedly had that problem. I've been told mine are > OK, but it used to be a bit flaky; however, I always blamed that on > the state of the early S-100 systems and my soldering work on the SOL > to which it was attached... I solder *much* better now... -dq > > > From mtapley at swri.edu Mon Nov 19 10:57:40 2001 From: mtapley at swri.edu (Mark Tapley) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:11:20 2005 Subject: Analog recorder rack to give away quickly In-Reply-To: <200111170339.VAA60577@opal.tseinc.com> Message-ID: All, SwRI is scrapping a big analog recorder rack. Top end contains a reel-to-reel recorder with big (ie around 24" diameter) tape reels. Model number looks like EB-3030 or EP-3030. Bottom end of the rack contains a row of Ampex "Monitor Oscilloscope" devices, what looks like an amplifier/signal conditioning box, labelled "Datum tape search and control unit", and a "Datum Time code Generator" with day/hour/min/sec readout. To go with this is a big *heavy* stack of the tapes it uses. Yours for shipping or pickup from San Antonio, Texas. I have digital pictures, 4 jpegs at about 500k each, if you want to see better or want to web-host, and I can go check specifics if you have specific questions. I need a commitment this week if you want it, though, as we need the space, else we have to trash/recycle. Please contact me off-list, I'm way behind on reading my digests. I'm at mtapley@swri.edu, or phone (210)-522-6025. - Mark From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Mon Nov 19 11:12:38 2001 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (Allison) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:11:20 2005 Subject: Intel C8080A chip brings $565 on EBAY Message-ID: <000f01c1711d$6d897600$6b7b7b7b@ajp> >heh... actually, Adolph Coors spun-off its non-brewery assets in 1992 >into ACX Technologies, and most recently, CoorsTek (formerly Coors >Ceramics) was spun-off into a wholly separate company on Jan 1, 2000. > >-dq I know but, in reference to collectable chips it was true to the most part. I just didn't want to wear out the list with minute details. Allison From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Mon Nov 19 11:18:37 2001 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (Allison) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:11:20 2005 Subject: Intel C8080A chip brings $565 on EBAY Message-ID: <002001c1711e$3b1257e0$6b7b7b7b@ajp> Indeed, it may have been a mech sample. I have DEC DCT-310s with ES written on them, they were actual engineering samples for the VT240 team (near same time as Falcon card develpoment). Mine came from when the Engineering junkbox. Allison -----Original Message----- From: Richard Erlacher To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org Date: Monday, November 19, 2001 10:57 AM Subject: Re: Intel C8080A chip brings $565 on EBAY >I've got one pretty old MOTOROLA device, in a 40-pin DIP, the identity of which >is a complete mystery to me. In fact, I may have tossed it not long ago, but >all it said on it aside from a MOT date code was "Sample." Maybe it was a >mechanincal ... > >Dick > >----- Original Message ----- >From: "Allison" >To: >Sent: Monday, November 19, 2001 6:38 AM >Subject: Re: Intel C8080A chip brings $565 on EBAY > > >> From: John Galt >> >> >There's a rather small community of chip collectors. >> > >> >However, there are a few collectors who have been >> >collecting for over 10 years now who have put togather >> >pretty vast collections of literally thousands of chips. >> >> >> My only concern is they may be collecting junk, IE: chips that >> look good, may be rare but are DEAD/useless electronically. >> >> >It would be the same as if suddenly someone found >> >two Intelec bit slice 3002 computers dated 1975 in a closet or something. >> >Sure, there might could be more, but if they were common, you guys would >> >have already seen one. >> >> >> These were quite common and the basic chipset on an experimentors board >> was around $495 in 1977. Most were used then relagated to the engineering >> junk box. So I'd presume when you say rare, your referring to actively >> traded >> survivors as SBC colltors like me may already have one (not yet!). >> >> >As far as the color, chip collectors refer to that color >> >chip as "purple". If you look at it next to a normal >> >"gray" CerDIP, you can see the difference. Besides, >> >it would not have mattered had it been black. The fact >> >is, it's not the white/gold color of a normal Intel >> >C8080A. The printing on the chip is also somewhat different. My guess is >> >it's a late run C8080A that was >> >> >> It's very late run ceramic. Ceramic for chip substrates only comes from a >> few >> vendors one being a beer maker in the rockies a few in the far east and >> Europe. >> It was part of the reason why ceramic parts were more expensive and also >> a near must if the part was required to pass tests for hermetic sealing >> (military, >> space or other high stress apps). >> >> Ceramic aging/dating: >> >> Starting with the 1960s ceramic was white. >> >> early White >> >> examples were >> early military Flatpacks(RTL/DTL/TTL) >> 1101, 1103 ram >> 1702 eprom >> >> first brown parts I'd seen were 2708s >> >> brown (light) >> later dark brown >> Gray >> Gray with brownish cast >> Gray with purplish cast >> >> Those were the most common. Eproms were generaltionally in the common >> ceramic of the time. >> >> Allison >> >> >> >> >> >> > From csmith at amdocs.com Mon Nov 19 11:22:03 2001 From: csmith at amdocs.com (Christopher Smith) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:11:20 2005 Subject: OT: paging MAC expert(s) --- What's a Performa? Message-ID: <3B55D7F383B0D31197D9009027541CBF1170DE98@cmiexch1.cmi.itds.com> > -----Original Message----- > From: Richard Erlacher [mailto:edick@idcomm.com] > the Intel CPU as well as the 'LC040, was 3.11/6.22. I was > working more from the > experience with Windows that I'd had more recently. My > latest Windows, BTW, is > '98SE, and, until they fix some of the very fundamental problems, like > non-working OS utilities, e.g. Backup, I'm not getting any > more M$ OS products. > I'm told it may be a long wait, BTW. Has microsoft _ever_ had a working backup utility? OK, maybe xenix had a working version of tar or cpio (I doubt it had both), but that's it. However, since I'm supposed to "leave my anti-ms baggage at the door," according to the faq, don't get me started ;) > This practice of theirs, of buying a non-functional cast-off from some > financially-troubled software company and then integrating it > into their OS is, > in fact, an example of their "monopolistic practices" since Just ask yourself why most of these companies are troubled in the first place... > they've no intention > of supporting the product as an intrinsic function of their > OS, though that's > what they claim, as in the case of Internet Explorer, it is. > Since you can't go > to anyone else for a competing OS product, I guess they > figure you're screwed, > which is how I see it. Well, my most recent exposure is to windows 2000, which, admittedly, is nearly as stable as NT 3.x was (4 was a joke). I only use it at work, and only because they give me no choice. At home, I have plenty of other options that do whatever I tell them to... ;) Regards, Chris Christopher Smith, Perl Developer Amdocs - Champaign, IL /usr/bin/perl -e ' print((~"\x95\xc4\xe3"^"Just Another Perl Hacker.")."\x08!\n"); ' From mtapley at swri.edu Mon Nov 19 11:22:19 2001 From: mtapley at swri.edu (Mark Tapley) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:11:20 2005 Subject: Convex 9-track tapes, incl. very early perl. Message-ID: All, I have a stack of Convex 9-track tapes for somebody to make disappear by paying for boxing/shipping or by picking up, from San Antonio, Texas. Included in the stack are: 7 inch diameter reels: Convex Veclib USA V4.0 Dec 13 1988 Convex Veclib V5.0 Jan 31 1990 Convex COVUEdt V1.2 Aug 7 1990 Convex COVUEdt V1.1 Aug 22 1989 Convex CXbatch V1.1 Jun 12 1990 Convex C Compiler V4.0 Jul 19 1990 Convex C Compiler V3.0 Dec 28 1989 Convex OS PatchV8.0.1 Mar 6 1990 Convex OS V8.1 (C1) Jul 19 1990 Convex OS V8.0 (C1) Jan 31 1990 Convex CXBatch V2.0 Dec 22 1990 Convex Fortran V6.0 Jun 12 1990 Convex Fortran V5.1.1.0 Aug 22 1989 Convex 1990 User Group May 10 1990 Utilities v1.0 Jul 19 1990 user grp 1991 Jul 10 1991 tape hand-labelled "bind stuff" tape hand-labelled "SNMP source" tape hand-labelled "8.0 patches 3-15-90" ****** tape hand-labelled "Convex user group tape mh (v6.4) perl v1.29 from lwall@devvax:jpl.nasa.gov." ****** 11 inch diameter reel: ConvexOS V8.0 Jan 31, 1990 Tapes are generally Memorex, all have the gold Convex label on them. None have been tested probably for decades, and I'm pretty sure they were stored in warehouses in San Antonio. They look to be in good physical shape. ATTENTION Convex computer representatives! If there is any reason I should not make these tapes available, please notify me at the below addres and I will comply with your wishes. Any interested parties should contact me at mtapley@swri.edu, or by phone at (210)-522-6025. Questions welcome, offers to ship more welcome. I can't keep them for very long. - Mark From mtapley at swri.edu Mon Nov 19 11:26:09 2001 From: mtapley at swri.edu (Mark Tapley) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:11:20 2005 Subject: 4 Dec RA-60P Disk packs to get rid of. Message-ID: All, More interesting media to get rid of from San Antonio, Texas. This is a stack of 4 DEC RA-60P disk packs, in their carrying cases, and one extra carrying case (that pack is probably still in the drive, wherever it is). Media look to be in OK shape physically, but may be dirty inside. Contact me at mtapley@swri.edu or phone (210)-522-6025 to arrange pack/ship. - Mark From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Mon Nov 19 11:24:53 2001 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (Allison) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:11:21 2005 Subject: Intel C8080A chip brings $565 on EBAY Message-ID: <004301c17120$22c4cea0$6b7b7b7b@ajp> Not quite true. The Dram problem was one of those "we knew it was comming" due to shrinking geometry items. The source of the radiation was the Gold eutectic braze. The specific radiation was alpha particles. FYI the solution was organic based die overcoat. Testing for the phenomina was undertaken to verify and analyze the phenomina by NEC,IBM and MOTO (to name a few) using initally small geometry 16k single voltage (i2118 style) parts. FYI: the coors ceramic parts were morecostly due to the gold! They however were better for hermetic performance than slab with glass frit sealed packages. Allison -----Original Message----- From: Richard Erlacher To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org Date: Monday, November 19, 2001 11:00 AM Subject: Re: Intel C8080A chip brings $565 on EBAY >Back in the early days of 64k DRAMs, the COORS ceramics were described as having >too much radioactivity for use in high-density memories. I'm not sure that was, >in fact, the case, but somebody seems to have thought so. Do you suppose they >fixed that? Coors was a leader, in the '60's in porcelain tooling and other >such oddities, not to mention having "perfected" the draw-and-iron process for >making thin-walled aluminum beverage cans. > >Dick > >----- Original Message ----- >From: "Douglas Quebbeman" >To: >Sent: Monday, November 19, 2001 7:37 AM >Subject: RE: Intel C8080A chip brings $565 on EBAY > > >> > It's very late run ceramic. Ceramic for chip substrates only comes from a >> > few vendors one being a beer maker in the rockies a few in the far east and >> > Europe. >> >> heh... actually, Adolph Coors spun-off its non-brewery assets in 1992 >> into ACX Technologies, and most recently, CoorsTek (formerly Coors >> Ceramics) was spun-off into a wholly separate company on Jan 1, 2000. >> >> -dq >> >> > > From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Mon Nov 19 11:31:09 2001 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (Allison) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:11:21 2005 Subject: Intel C8080A chip brings $565 on EBAY Message-ID: <004401c17120$28dc4160$6b7b7b7b@ajp> back then I was involved in that stuff and 99% of the Dram problems were design related and not alpha particle. To see the alpha particle in real apps you'd need a box that had thouands of them running 7x24 for weeks! S100 systems that ran that well were prone to the power company failing to deliver before ram failure was a problem! Back in that time frame I used static ram due to the general flakyness I preceived of most S100 cards. The best S100 ram I'd used for that time frame (1980) had an 8202( Netronics DRAM using 16Ks). Allison From: Douglas Quebbeman >> Back in the early days of 64k DRAMs, the COORS ceramics were described as >having >> too much radioactivity for use in high-density memories. I'm not sure that >was, >> in fact, the case, but somebody seems to have thought so. Do you suppose >they >> fixed that? Coors was a leader, in the '60's in porcelain tooling and other >> such oddities, not to mention having "perfected" the draw-and-iron process >for >> making thin-walled aluminum beverage cans. > >My 8k EconoRAM IV, one of the first S-100 boards to use DRAM, used the >very chips that supposedly had that problem. I've been told mine are >OK, but it used to be a bit flaky; however, I always blamed that on >the state of the early S-100 systems and my soldering work on the SOL >to which it was attached... I solder *much* better now... -dq > From mtapley at swri.edu Mon Nov 19 12:00:01 2001 From: mtapley at swri.edu (Mark Tapley) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:11:21 2005 Subject: 9-track tape to dispose of Message-ID: All, ....and then there's the rest of the tape. Miles and miles of 9-track tapes are stacked in my office and I want my office back. I rescued about 1/3 of the to-dispose pile, the rest went to the dumpster. If I'm industrious, I may try ebaying this if you guys don't want it, but I'd rather it go to a classic-comp-er. If I'm not industrious, I'll dumpster it when I need my office bad enough. Mostly Scotch Black Watch 700 or 777 tape, mostly 12-inch reels, but lots of Memorex and smaller reels available too. Practically all is 6250 or 1600 cpi certified. A variety of closures, mostly the plastic rings and hangers. Write-enable rings mostly in place. The first 2 orders will get a bonus black 3-tape carrying case with nice webbing straps to hold it closed and serve as a handle. I have around 400 of these tapes, so please do not be shy about how many you request, at least within the constraints of your shipping budget. - Mark From edick at idcomm.com Mon Nov 19 12:19:36 2001 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:11:21 2005 Subject: OT: paging MAC expert(s) --- What's a Performa? References: <3B55D7F383B0D31197D9009027541CBF1170DE98@cmiexch1.cmi.itds.com> Message-ID: <000f01c17126$bed4d640$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> I'm concerned mainly about Win9x. There were numerous backup packages that worked VERY well under [DOS6.22/Win3.11]. Since the release of Win9x, I've bought several backup packages, and a couple of releases of each, yet not seen one that even barely worked on any sort of consistent basis. The early backup program from ADAPTEC, part of their EasySCSI 4.xx package, didn't even support SCSI devices, and freely admitted it. Microsoft's backup utility for Windows95 didn't support SCSI devices either. Seagate Backup Exec supported SCSI-1 and SCSI-2 devices, though it didn't work terribly well because it opened files that subsequently required human intervention in order to complete the backup. Moreover, if permission was given to back up those files, it would fall down during verify, since it, itself, had modified those files. Novaback for Windows95 failed on 148 of the 151 units one of my clients has, failing in all those cases, to complete the backup. I've never managed to get Novaback to finish a restore either. Cheyenne backup was a miserable flop, failing to read its own writing from time to time. I could go on ... There's something about the OS that interferes with a backup. The Microsoft Backup for Win98 seems to work ...sorta... but it only works ...sorta... and falls down many times, misinterpreting a drive that the OS recognizes correctly to be a 2GB partition to be 300+ Terabytes. Naturally it falls down later because of that problem. An OS without a real backup utility is of little use because you have to have backup ... not just copies of things, but a real backup, context and all, that enables you to get back to where you were. DOS didn't have that, UNIX doesn't have it (though it does have TAR, which makes copies to tape), OS/2 doesn't have it, LINUX doesn't have it ... I don't know what a guy's to do. I guess image-copying the disk to tape, empty space and all, is the only solution. Of course that means the files are replaceable only on an all or nothing basis. ^%$#@! ... what a bunch of crap! Dick ----- Original Message ----- From: "Christopher Smith" To: Sent: Monday, November 19, 2001 10:22 AM Subject: RE: OT: paging MAC expert(s) --- What's a Performa? > > -----Original Message----- > > From: Richard Erlacher [mailto:edick@idcomm.com] > > > the Intel CPU as well as the 'LC040, was 3.11/6.22. I was > > working more from the > > experience with Windows that I'd had more recently. My > > latest Windows, BTW, is > > '98SE, and, until they fix some of the very fundamental problems, like > > non-working OS utilities, e.g. Backup, I'm not getting any > > more M$ OS products. > > I'm told it may be a long wait, BTW. > > Has microsoft _ever_ had a working backup utility? OK, maybe xenix had a > working version of tar or cpio (I doubt it had both), but that's it. > However, since I'm supposed to "leave my anti-ms baggage at the door," > according to the faq, don't get me started ;) > > > This practice of theirs, of buying a non-functional cast-off from some > > financially-troubled software company and then integrating it > > into their OS is, > > in fact, an example of their "monopolistic practices" since > > Just ask yourself why most of these companies are troubled in the first > place... > > > they've no intention > > of supporting the product as an intrinsic function of their > > OS, though that's > > what they claim, as in the case of Internet Explorer, it is. > > Since you can't go > > to anyone else for a competing OS product, I guess they > > figure you're screwed, > > which is how I see it. > > Well, my most recent exposure is to windows 2000, which, admittedly, is > nearly as stable as NT 3.x was (4 was a joke). I only use it at work, and > only because they give me no choice. At home, I have plenty of other > options that do whatever I tell them to... ;) > > Regards, > > Chris > > Christopher Smith, Perl Developer > Amdocs - Champaign, IL > > /usr/bin/perl -e ' > print((~"\x95\xc4\xe3"^"Just Another Perl Hacker.")."\x08!\n"); > ' > > From edick at idcomm.com Mon Nov 19 12:23:47 2001 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:11:21 2005 Subject: Intel C8080A chip brings $565 on EBAY References: <004301c17120$22c4cea0$6b7b7b7b@ajp> Message-ID: <001901c17127$5692a980$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> I don't remember that explanation, though I guess it could be plausible. What I remember reading was that, since western Colorado and eastern Utah, where they were getting some of their materials was also an area of relatively high concentration of radioactive minerals, which certainly lines up with the 1950's activity in uranium prospecting/mining in that area. It was easy for me to buy into during that period. The problem was found in almost all ceramic packages made from materials acquired in that part of the country, so it seemed reasonable enough. It doesn't matter now, of course. Dick ----- Original Message ----- From: "Allison" To: Sent: Monday, November 19, 2001 10:24 AM Subject: Re: Intel C8080A chip brings $565 on EBAY > Not quite true. > > The Dram problem was one of those "we knew it was comming" due > to shrinking geometry items. The source of the radiation was the Gold > eutectic braze. The specific radiation was alpha particles. FYI the > solution was organic based die overcoat. Testing for the phenomina was > undertaken to verify and analyze the phenomina by NEC,IBM and MOTO > (to name a few) using initally small geometry 16k single voltage (i2118 > style) parts. > > FYI: the coors ceramic parts were morecostly due to the gold! They > however were better for hermetic performance than slab with glass frit > sealed packages. > > Allison > > -----Original Message----- > From: Richard Erlacher > To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org > Date: Monday, November 19, 2001 11:00 AM > Subject: Re: Intel C8080A chip brings $565 on EBAY > > > >Back in the early days of 64k DRAMs, the COORS ceramics were described as > having > >too much radioactivity for use in high-density memories. I'm not sure that > was, > >in fact, the case, but somebody seems to have thought so. Do you suppose > they > >fixed that? Coors was a leader, in the '60's in porcelain tooling and > other > >such oddities, not to mention having "perfected" the draw-and-iron process > for > >making thin-walled aluminum beverage cans. > > > >Dick > > > >----- Original Message ----- > >From: "Douglas Quebbeman" > >To: > >Sent: Monday, November 19, 2001 7:37 AM > >Subject: RE: Intel C8080A chip brings $565 on EBAY > > > > > >> > It's very late run ceramic. Ceramic for chip substrates only comes > from a > >> > few vendors one being a beer maker in the rockies a few in the far east > and > >> > Europe. > >> > >> heh... actually, Adolph Coors spun-off its non-brewery assets in 1992 > >> into ACX Technologies, and most recently, CoorsTek (formerly Coors > >> Ceramics) was spun-off into a wholly separate company on Jan 1, 2000. > >> > >> -dq > >> > >> > > > > > > From edick at idcomm.com Mon Nov 19 12:43:47 2001 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:11:21 2005 Subject: Intel C8080A chip brings $565 on EBAY References: <004401c17120$28dc4160$6b7b7b7b@ajp> Message-ID: <001d01c1712a$1fcd5500$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> Gee, Allison, that's not how I remember that stuff at all. We had a dozen or more machines running a really thorough memory tests in the early '80's and the purpose was to quantify the difference in error rates between ceramic and plastic parts. In order to do that, all you needed was a big enough DRAM array, and you'd see them at a rate of about one or two per minute from among those machines. Of course we'd be using about 8 boards measuring about 16" x 22" with 288 devices per board, then tracking the locations of the corrected errors. If you used plastic parts, the error rate dropped, comparatively, by about 90%. That's the reason the problem was so widely discussed. It's odd that it doesn't exist anymore, with the typcial home computer having about as much RAM nowadays as all the computers in the world had when I was in college. BTW, that entire problem went almost completely away once the DRAMs were redesigned with that checkerboarding mod I mentioned. Dick ----- Original Message ----- From: "Allison" To: Sent: Monday, November 19, 2001 10:31 AM Subject: Re: Intel C8080A chip brings $565 on EBAY > back then I was involved in that stuff and 99% of the Dram problems were > design > related and not alpha particle. To see the alpha particle in real apps > you'd need > a box that had thouands of them running 7x24 for weeks! S100 systems that > ran > that well were prone to the power company failing to deliver before ram > failure was > a problem! > > Back in that time frame I used static ram due to the general flakyness I > preceived > of most S100 cards. The best S100 ram I'd used for that time frame (1980) > had an 8202( Netronics DRAM using 16Ks). > That board (I've still got a couple, 1 still unbuilt) was very, Very, VERY slow, and used somebody's rather lame DRAM controller IC. The boards from CCS had timing adquate for use with 64K parts if you didn't mind making the mod's, AND they worked. The stock and unmodified version of those boards ran in a set of 8 boards for one of my clients running something like Mmmost or whatever it was called, for several years and, since they had a UPS, never experienced a failure in the time I worked with them. The Systems Group stuff worked really well, and I still like 'em, though the boards are 512K boards rather than the 128K ones they were then, having been designed with the eventual emergence of 256K parts in mind. The main problem with S-100 DRAM boards was that designers seldom understood both the S-100 timing and the proper use of DRAMs. Frankly, since there wasn't a standard, it is understandable that nobody could get complete interoperability from DRAMs with reasonable timing, since the S-100 had been designed around one CPU and then the most popular CPU was promptly replaced by another one with completely different timing. > > Allison > > > From: Douglas Quebbeman > > >> Back in the early days of 64k DRAMs, the COORS ceramics were described as > >having > >> too much radioactivity for use in high-density memories. I'm not sure > that > >was, > >> in fact, the case, but somebody seems to have thought so. Do you suppose > >they > >> fixed that? Coors was a leader, in the '60's in porcelain tooling and > other > >> such oddities, not to mention having "perfected" the draw-and-iron > process > >for > >> making thin-walled aluminum beverage cans. > > > >My 8k EconoRAM IV, one of the first S-100 boards to use DRAM, used the > >very chips that supposedly had that problem. I've been told mine are > >OK, but it used to be a bit flaky; however, I always blamed that on > >the state of the early S-100 systems and my soldering work on the SOL > >to which it was attached... I solder *much* better now... -dq > > > > From foo at siconic.com Mon Nov 19 12:54:18 2001 From: foo at siconic.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:11:21 2005 Subject: Intel C8080A chip brings $565 on EBAY In-Reply-To: <002d01c170f6$92a86620$0100a8c0@sys1> Message-ID: On Mon, 19 Nov 2001, John Galt wrote: > As far as the color, chip collectors refer to that color chip as > "purple". If you look at it next to a normal "gray" CerDIP, you can > see the difference. Besides, it would not have mattered had it been > black. The fact is, it's not the white/gold color of a normal Intel > C8080A. The printing on the chip is also somewhat different. My > guess is it's a late run C8080A that was put in the same package they > used for some of the later C8085AH's. My questions is: why does this matter? Will researchers 50 years from now find the Purple one useful for any sort of study? What makes the Purple one special beyond just being a pretty if not questionable shade of purple? Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org From donm at cts.com Mon Nov 19 13:01:48 2001 From: donm at cts.com (Don Maslin) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:11:21 2005 Subject: your mail In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Mon, 19 Nov 2001, news wrote: > Newsgroups: mailinglist.classiccmp > Path: gateway > From: ajp166@bellatlantic.net (Allison) > Subject: Re: Intel C8080A chip brings $565 on EBAY > Date: 19 Nov 01 13:38:45 GMT > Sender: Steve Kostecke > MIME-Version: 1.0 > Message-ID: <003401c170ff$841dc740$6b7b7b7b@ajp> > X-Priority: 3 > Distribution: local > X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3155.0 > Reply-To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org > X-Mailing-List: classiccmp > X-Mimeole: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3155.0 > X-Fetchmail-Warning: recipient address classiccmp@classiccmp.org didn't match any local name > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" > X-Msmail-Priority: Normal > Lines: 72 > Organization: kostecke.net mail2news gateway > X-Authentication-Warning: opal.tseinc.com: majordom set sender to owner-classiccmp@classiccmp.org using -f > Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Steve, why are you redundantly transmitting this stuff? We have all already seen it at least once! Please knock it off. - don From mythtech at Mac.com Mon Nov 19 13:06:21 2001 From: mythtech at Mac.com (Chris) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:11:21 2005 Subject: OT: paging MAC expert(s) --- What's a Performa? Message-ID: >I've drawn the conclusion that the only real memory-hog is the Netscape >browser. >A couple of folks have advised me to install a 32MB simm for that purpose >alone. >It would certainly be a shame to make the system buckle when browsing just >because it lacks RAM. I would give iCab a try (www.icab.de), it is free, and works extremely well. It uses way less RAM than Netscape, so it should work with just 8mb installed (4mb might be tight). I am running the latest version right now and it is taking up just 2.9mb of RAM. It is also faster and more stable than Netscape in my experience... and it is actively under development even for the 68k version, something you won't get with Netscape (the 68k version is dead in the water for Netscape). -chris From mythtech at Mac.com Mon Nov 19 13:10:59 2001 From: mythtech at Mac.com (Chris) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:11:21 2005 Subject: OT: paging MAC expert(s) --- What's a Performa? Message-ID: >I have yet to figure out why they couldn't have done the disk reads/writes >in the background while you do some other things. I believe it's likely to >be a "left-over" from early days. Certain hardware could do background read/write starting with 7.5.3 (? maybe .5). I used to do it with my Quarda 610. Also, as of OS 8.0, read/write can be done in the background on all hardware that supports OS 8.0 (32 bit clean, 040's or better). I regularly put long file copies in the background and continue doing other things. -chris From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Mon Nov 19 11:45:24 2001 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (Ben Franchuk) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:11:21 2005 Subject: OT: paging MAC expert(s) --- What's a Performa? References: <3B55D7F383B0D31197D9009027541CBF1170DE98@cmiexch1.cmi.itds.com> <000f01c17126$bed4d640$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> Message-ID: <3BF94534.64957004@jetnet.ab.ca> Richard Erlacher wrote: > There's something about the OS that interferes with a backup. The Microsoft > Backup for Win98 seems to work ...sorta... but it only works ...sorta... and > falls down many times, misinterpreting a drive that the OS recognizes correctly > to be a 2GB partition to be 300+ Terabytes. Naturally it falls down later > because of that problem. I suspect this was you were never meant to backup the complete system. Why that might mean somebody could make a illegal copy of windows. The few backup programs I have looked at but never could afford still run under DOS and will back up your windows system with out the OS. There is just too much crap in windows that makes it nearly impossible to backup. And of course you have to load windows to run a windows backup. (Stupid)! > An OS without a real backup utility is of little use because you have to have > backup ... not just copies of things, but a real backup, context and all, that > enables you to get back to where you were. DOS didn't have that, UNIX doesn't > have it (though it does have TAR, which makes copies to tape), OS/2 doesn't have > it, LINUX doesn't have it ... I don't know what a guy's to do. I guess > image-copying the disk to tape, empty space and all, is the only solution. Of > course that means the files are replaceable only on an all or nothing basis. > ^%$#@! ... what a bunch of crap! Since I have a small HD I do a tar from my boot disk for linux, for the entire HD to a bunch of Zip disks. A bit messy but I know I recover the entire OS should my HD fail with tar. Ben Franchuk. From csmith at amdocs.com Mon Nov 19 13:24:29 2001 From: csmith at amdocs.com (Christopher Smith) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:11:21 2005 Subject: OT: paging MAC expert(s) --- What's a Performa? Message-ID: <3B55D7F383B0D31197D9009027541CBF1170DE9F@cmiexch1.cmi.itds.com> > -----Original Message----- > From: Richard Erlacher [mailto:edick@idcomm.com] > I'm concerned mainly about Win9x. There were numerous backup > packages that > worked VERY well under [DOS6.22/Win3.11]. Since the release > of Win9x, I've > bought several backup packages, and a couple of releases of > each, yet not seen > one that even barely worked on any sort of consistent basis. Ahh, well if you allow third-parties into the picture, it changes somewhat. [Backup utility problems snipped] > There's something about the OS that interferes with a backup. > The Microsoft > Backup for Win98 seems to work ...sorta... but it only works > ...sorta... and > falls down many times, misinterpreting a drive that the OS > recognizes correctly > to be a 2GB partition to be 300+ Terabytes. Naturally it > falls down later > because of that problem. Since it's a microsoft utility, you can bet that the moment you upgrade windows, the backups will be unusable, since the new, improved version will be completely incompatible. > An OS without a real backup utility is of little use because > you have to have > backup ... not just copies of things, but a real backup, > context and all, that Bingo. Windows is not an enterprise class system, nor, IMNSHO, is it even worthy of being used in a production context. ... but back to the topic at hand. :) > enables you to get back to where you were. DOS didn't have In a single utility? Perhaps not, but how much "context" do you expect from DOS? :) The built-in backup program would copy files onto some other medium, and a recovery disk could at least be made relatively simply. Maybe I'm misunderstanding your complaint, though. My problem with the DOS backup utility was that every time somebody at m$ re-compiled something, your old backups were useless. I assume a third-party add-on would fix that. > that, UNIX doesn't > have it (though it does have TAR, which makes copies to I find that TAR gives me useable backups in general. Again, there's no such thing as a "standalone tar," so you'll need a recovery disk/tape/something. It also has CPIO if you're into that sort of thing, and several third-party things. > tape), OS/2 doesn't have > it, LINUX doesn't have it ... I don't know what a guy's to See unix above... also note that TAR may be available for OS/2. It is slightly harder to build an OS/2 recovery disk. > do. I guess > image-copying the disk to tape, empty space and all, is the > only solution. Of > course that means the files are replaceable only on an all or > nothing basis. Well, do you consider that space part of your "context?" Where is the line drawn? Also note that the empty space isn't exactly empty in most cases. As for "all-or-nothing" replacement, that's not exactly the case. You certainly could mount an image right from the backup device (very slowly for tape ;) and read files out. It would be a larger problem if your backups don't fit filesystem-for-cartrige. I'm relatively convinced that as long as you can backup files and attributes (including ACL, etc), treating special files as if they were (special, that is...), you ought to be ok. The only place you'd get bitten is in systems that need to know an exact location of a bootable image, or other such special file. That can probably be handled in the restore procedure, though. So I think DOS and Unix can be backed up pretty well. Windows is a different story, I guess. It would help, for windows, of course, if they'd provide a decent, uniform, block-device access method. Don't hold your breath, though. > ^%$#@! ... what a bunch of crap! What really makes it inexcusable is the fact that a backup utility shouldn't be too difficult to cook up. Regards, Chris Christopher Smith, Perl Developer Amdocs - Champaign, IL /usr/bin/perl -e ' print((~"\x95\xc4\xe3"^"Just Another Perl Hacker.")."\x08!\n"); ' From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Mon Nov 19 13:30:14 2001 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (Allison) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:11:21 2005 Subject: Intel C8080A chip brings $565 on EBAY Message-ID: <000a01c17130$a2f94aa0$6b7b7b7b@ajp> It was easy to buy into but, it wasn't supported by research. I was with NEC at that time and Dram was one of the hot products and they were pretty good at it. Tyrns out the gold braze for the lid and the gold based eutectic for the die bond were the real source and it was Alpha particles (most easily stopped) as a primary source of "soft" errors. Since then tricks like memory scrubbing in ECC systems and better controls on charge refresh have burried the problem even though the features are several orders smaller. That very smaller means less charge and there for more problems but it also means a smaller target meaning a more likely miss. In 1981 it translated to you had to have a lot of chips, running for a long time to get a radiation induced soft error and even then parity or better yet ECC was the way out. In the end, not a problem for most systems. Really interesting if your into statistics and probability. Allison -----Original Message----- From: Richard Erlacher To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org Date: Monday, November 19, 2001 1:57 PM Subject: Re: Intel C8080A chip brings $565 on EBAY >I don't remember that explanation, though I guess it could be plausible. What I >remember reading was that, since western Colorado and eastern Utah, where they >were getting some of their materials was also an area of relatively high >concentration of radioactive minerals, which certainly lines up with the 1950's >activity in uranium prospecting/mining in that area. It was easy for me to buy >into during that period. The problem was found in almost all ceramic packages >made from materials acquired in that part of the country, so it seemed >reasonable enough. It doesn't matter now, of course. > >Dick >----- Original Message ----- >From: "Allison" >To: >Sent: Monday, November 19, 2001 10:24 AM >Subject: Re: Intel C8080A chip brings $565 on EBAY > > >> Not quite true. >> >> The Dram problem was one of those "we knew it was comming" due >> to shrinking geometry items. The source of the radiation was the Gold >> eutectic braze. The specific radiation was alpha particles. FYI the >> solution was organic based die overcoat. Testing for the phenomina was >> undertaken to verify and analyze the phenomina by NEC,IBM and MOTO >> (to name a few) using initally small geometry 16k single voltage (i2118 >> style) parts. >> >> FYI: the coors ceramic parts were morecostly due to the gold! They >> however were better for hermetic performance than slab with glass frit >> sealed packages. >> >> Allison >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: Richard Erlacher >> To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org >> Date: Monday, November 19, 2001 11:00 AM >> Subject: Re: Intel C8080A chip brings $565 on EBAY >> >> >> >Back in the early days of 64k DRAMs, the COORS ceramics were described as >> having >> >too much radioactivity for use in high-density memories. I'm not sure that >> was, >> >in fact, the case, but somebody seems to have thought so. Do you suppose >> they >> >fixed that? Coors was a leader, in the '60's in porcelain tooling and >> other >> >such oddities, not to mention having "perfected" the draw-and-iron process >> for >> >making thin-walled aluminum beverage cans. >> > >> >Dick >> > >> >----- Original Message ----- >> >From: "Douglas Quebbeman" >> >To: >> >Sent: Monday, November 19, 2001 7:37 AM >> >Subject: RE: Intel C8080A chip brings $565 on EBAY >> > >> > >> >> > It's very late run ceramic. Ceramic for chip substrates only comes >> from a >> >> > few vendors one being a beer maker in the rockies a few in the far east >> and >> >> > Europe. >> >> >> >> heh... actually, Adolph Coors spun-off its non-brewery assets in 1992 >> >> into ACX Technologies, and most recently, CoorsTek (formerly Coors >> >> Ceramics) was spun-off into a wholly separate company on Jan 1, 2000. >> >> >> >> -dq >> >> >> >> >> > >> > >> >> > From cmurillo at emtelsa.multi.net.co Mon Nov 19 13:12:06 2001 From: cmurillo at emtelsa.multi.net.co (Carlos Murillo) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:11:21 2005 Subject: OT: paging MAC expert(s) --- What's a Performa? In-Reply-To: <000f01c17126$bed4d640$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> References: <3B55D7F383B0D31197D9009027541CBF1170DE98@cmiexch1.cmi.itds.com> Message-ID: <3.0.2.32.20011119141206.00fdfa2c@obregon.multi.net.co> At 11:19 AM 11/19/01 -0700, Dick wrote: >I'm concerned mainly about Win9x. There were numerous backup packages that >worked VERY well under [DOS6.22/Win3.11]. Since the release of Win9x, I've >bought several backup packages, and a couple of releases of each, yet not seen >one that even barely worked on any sort of consistent basis. Retrospect works nicely. And, it is very easy to set remote backups in a mixed wintel/mac installation, as long as each machine has its own static IP. It doesn't work as well using Winblows sharing. Even transitorially connected devices such as laptops can be remote backed-up using Retrospect. >An OS without a real backup utility is of little use because you have to have >backup ... not just copies of things, but a real backup, context and all, that >enables you to get back to where you were. DOS didn't have that, UNIX doesn't >have it (though it does have TAR, which makes copies to tape), OS/2 doesn't have >it, LINUX doesn't have it ... I don't know what a guy's to do. I guess >image-copying the disk to tape, empty space and all, is the only solution. Of >course that means the files are replaceable only on an all or nothing basis. >^%$#@! ... what a bunch of crap! Well, HPUX has Ignite-UX, which has lots of possibilities. It is free. But I doubt most people need such heavy artillery. carlos. -------------------------------------------------------------- Carlos E. Murillo-Sanchez carlos_murillo@nospammers.ieee.org From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Mon Nov 19 13:43:19 2001 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (Allison) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:11:21 2005 Subject: Intel C8080A chip brings $565 on EBAY Message-ID: <000d01c17132$71c194e0$6b7b7b7b@ajp> It was nowhere near that frequent. We used number like 1/10^6 device hours for occurance rates. Often they found minor burps in the system were at fault. As to the ceramic VS plastic you have to looks carefully at the system as the two have different leadframes, operating temps, likely timing and bus capacitance. All of those things for a given system interact. The worst example was early intel ceramic parts (8755, 8748, 8749 and 8751) where the lid was floating (not attached to any pin), they were quite sensitive to small static charges accumulating on the lid! People thought it was radiation doing it! Simple ESD problem. The reason it's less a problem is ECC is common as is error scrubbing and fewer interconnects, packages and die. Then again do we know that the last Blue Screen Of Death (BSOD) was really a MS OS burp or some system data error? :-) Try and buy memories larger than say 1Mbit in ceramic now. In all the systems I've encountered denser memories went hand in hand with better reliablity of that part of the system. Allison -----Original Message----- From: Richard Erlacher To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org Date: Monday, November 19, 2001 2:13 PM Subject: Re: Intel C8080A chip brings $565 on EBAY >Gee, Allison, that's not how I remember that stuff at all. We had a dozen or >more machines running a really thorough memory tests in the early '80's and the >purpose was to quantify the difference in error rates between ceramic and >plastic parts. In order to do that, all you needed was a big enough DRAM array, >and you'd see them at a rate of about one or two per minute from among those >machines. Of course we'd be using about 8 boards measuring about 16" x 22" with >288 devices per board, then tracking the locations of the corrected errors. If >you used plastic parts, the error rate dropped, comparatively, by about 90%. >That's the reason the problem was so widely discussed. It's odd that it doesn't >exist anymore, with the typcial home computer having about as much RAM nowadays >as all the computers in the world had when I was in college. BTW, that entire >problem went almost completely away once the DRAMs were redesigned with that >checkerboarding mod I mentioned. > >Dick > >----- Original Message ----- >From: "Allison" >To: >Sent: Monday, November 19, 2001 10:31 AM >Subject: Re: Intel C8080A chip brings $565 on EBAY > > >> back then I was involved in that stuff and 99% of the Dram problems were >> design >> related and not alpha particle. To see the alpha particle in real apps >> you'd need >> a box that had thouands of them running 7x24 for weeks! S100 systems that >> ran >> that well were prone to the power company failing to deliver before ram >> failure was >> a problem! >> >> Back in that time frame I used static ram due to the general flakyness I >> preceived >> of most S100 cards. The best S100 ram I'd used for that time frame (1980) >> had an 8202( Netronics DRAM using 16Ks). >> >That board (I've still got a couple, 1 still unbuilt) was very, Very, VERY slow, >and used somebody's rather lame DRAM controller IC. The boards from CCS had >timing adquate for use with 64K parts if you didn't mind making the mod's, AND >they worked. The stock and unmodified version of those boards ran in a set of 8 >boards for one of my clients running something like Mmmost or whatever it was >called, for several years and, since they had a UPS, never experienced a failure >in the time I worked with them. The Systems Group stuff worked really well, and >I still like 'em, though the boards are 512K boards rather than the 128K ones >they were then, having been designed with the eventual emergence of 256K parts >in mind. > >The main problem with S-100 DRAM boards was that designers seldom understood >both the S-100 timing and the proper use of DRAMs. Frankly, since there wasn't >a standard, it is understandable that nobody could get complete interoperability >from DRAMs with reasonable timing, since the S-100 had been designed around one >CPU and then the most popular CPU was promptly replaced by another one with >completely different timing. >> >> Allison >> >> >> From: Douglas Quebbeman >> >> >> Back in the early days of 64k DRAMs, the COORS ceramics were described as >> >having >> >> too much radioactivity for use in high-density memories. I'm not sure >> that >> >was, >> >> in fact, the case, but somebody seems to have thought so. Do you suppose >> >they >> >> fixed that? Coors was a leader, in the '60's in porcelain tooling and >> other >> >> such oddities, not to mention having "perfected" the draw-and-iron >> process >> >for >> >> making thin-walled aluminum beverage cans. >> > >> >My 8k EconoRAM IV, one of the first S-100 boards to use DRAM, used the >> >very chips that supposedly had that problem. I've been told mine are >> >OK, but it used to be a bit flaky; however, I always blamed that on >> >the state of the early S-100 systems and my soldering work on the SOL >> >to which it was attached... I solder *much* better now... -dq >> > >> >> > From Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de Mon Nov 19 14:02:34 2001 From: Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de (Hans Franke) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:11:21 2005 Subject: Chip Collectors (was: Intel C8080A chip brings $565 on EBAY) In-Reply-To: <001501c170ac$5276fca0$0100a8c0@sys1> Message-ID: <3BF9736A.21391.F7FB1714@localhost> Nice new topic ... > If you do > not need some old chips you have laying around, then > here's a chance for you to get rid of them and make a few > bucks in the process. Valid to some degree, > My intent was to demonstrate that you guys should come off that stash of old > chips you have squireled away. > They are not doing you any good and there is a community of chip collectors > who would love to get > their hands on them. Now exactly here comes a dramatic missunderstanding (please excuse if Tony already answered hereon :)): At least for my part, I don't collect and hort old chips witout purpose. I collect old machines, and these chips are vital spare parts. Maybe we can stress again the old Car vs Computer collector picture. Collectin chips is to me like collecting crankshafts or pistons to a car collector. They may be realy nice, and there is an awful lot of various details and variations to collect, but the best place is still inside an engine to keep a car running - no part can be so beautifull that I would prefere it above the whole machine. > But then, they are not here at the moment and I am, so > I am more than willing to "distribute" > them to legitimate collectors for you. In otherwords, > I am willing to be the "middleman". I buy the chips from > you (for more than you think they are worth) and I then > put them in the hands of legitmate chip collectors. So machine collectors are not legitimate ? (SCNR) > You get some cash and get to know that your old chips > will be preserved and enjoyed by others instead of > sitting in some box in your garage. Will I make money > on the deal? I might, but if I do, I'll just use it to buy > other chips I do not have from other collectors. Most > collectors obtain most of there chips thru trading. But > that only works if you have chips to trade. I don't have > any old computers to trade so I offer you cash instead. Now if this implies to get old computers to just rip of some chips, you may realy offend some members. (*) > However, if you do need a chip, there's a good chance > I can find it for you. In fact, I've got a special this week. > Purple C8080A's for only $600 ea. - Just kidding! I can get you the white > and gold ones for less than that. > Besides, why do you need a C8080A when a P8080A will work just as well? I > can get those for $5. Like with car collectors, there a two species - one that realy want to keep it in an totaly as original delivered configuration, who would put in a similar chip only as long as they can't find the 'real' one, and the ones who want to keep it in a good or better as good to use condition, who don't care about non infuencal parts (like using a P instead of a C) Well, let's see. BTW: I have some 8080s and similar stuff - Got to look, but most are white ceramic (and some grey) ... (And Sallam, don't piss him off - let me first sell some spare :) Gruss H. (*) Serious, if wou scrap machines to get chips, I'd like to get a note from you before you do so - maybe you can have the same chips you would loot (or a few more) in exchange for the untouched machine. -- VCF Europa 3.0 am 27./28. April 2002 in Muenchen http://www.vcfe.org/ From tothwolf at concentric.net Mon Nov 19 14:11:24 2001 From: tothwolf at concentric.net (Tothwolf) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:11:21 2005 Subject: 1771 floppy controller questions Message-ID: I have a complete TRS-80 Model I that has a dead Western Digital FD1771-01 chip in its expansion interface. Does anyone know if a National 1771-B01 is a suitable replacement? What would be a fair/reasonable price for a new 1771 these days? -Toth From stanb at dial.pipex.com Mon Nov 19 13:07:22 2001 From: stanb at dial.pipex.com (Stan Barr) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:11:21 2005 Subject: OT: paging MAC expert(s) --- What's a Performa? In-Reply-To: Your message of "Mon, 19 Nov 2001 09:03:49 MST." <000c01c17113$c6f13b60$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> Message-ID: <200111191907.TAA27161@citadel.metropolis.local> > There does appear to be a problem with transporting files/data from a computer > to a MAC. Apparently, if I move things to a PC diskette, I can only read the > content as data on the MAC, so there's got to be another way to get stuff from > the web to these MAC's. I'm not patient enough to wait for a transfer at 2400 > baud on those GV Teleport Bronze modems. Try do download them as .sit (Stuffit), .hqx or .gz (gzip) files and copy them over to the Mac. Unstuff them with Stuffit Expander and you'll have no problems. I regularly get Mac stuff using this Linux box (faster modem!). Avoid .sea (Self Extracting Archive?) files as they're Mac applications and will have problems. -- Cheers, Stan Barr stanb@dial.pipex.com The future was never like this! From stanb at dial.pipex.com Mon Nov 19 12:49:04 2001 From: stanb at dial.pipex.com (Stan Barr) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:11:21 2005 Subject: OT: paging MAC expert(s) --- What's a Performa? In-Reply-To: Your message of "Mon, 19 Nov 2001 08:18:38 MST." <003a01c1710d$76e4bc60$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> Message-ID: <200111191849.SAA27109@citadel.metropolis.local> > I've drawn the conclusion that the only real memory-hog is the Netscape browser. > A couple of folks have advised me to install a 32MB simm for that purpose alone. > It would certainly be a shame to make the system buckle when browsing just > because it lacks RAM. > > Does anyone know otherwise? It would be a waste to invest in expanding the RAM > if it's unwarranted, though I've never heard complaints about too much RAM. > > Dick > Netscape is a memory hog, but will run in as little as 8MB. V4.08 uses about 12-14MB in my system, but more RAM never hurts...except the wallet! Go look at iCab: http://www.icab.de/ faster and smaller. I think the preview version is still free for the moment. -- Cheers, Stan Barr stanb@dial.pipex.com The future was never like this! From spectre at stockholm.ptloma.edu Mon Nov 19 15:35:31 2001 From: spectre at stockholm.ptloma.edu (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:11:21 2005 Subject: OT: paging MAC expert(s) --- What's a Performa? In-Reply-To: <004001c17119$b83840e0$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> from Richard Erlacher at "Nov 19, 1 09:46:21 am" Message-ID: <200111192135.NAA08508@stockholm.ptloma.edu> > Have you got hands-on experience with Netscrape on the MAC with <20 MB? That > makes a difference, since I can then configure both boxes the same way, having > the required parts in house. Yes. I run it fine on a IIsi with only 16MB. The key is to use a nice old version like 2.02 that has most of the functionality of the current version and just lacks the gee-whiz crap you didn't need anyhow. -- ----------------------------- personal page: http://www.armory.com/~spectre/ -- Cameron Kaiser, Point Loma Nazarene University * ckaiser@stockholm.ptloma.edu -- I'm a dyslexic amateur orthinologist. I just love word-botching. ----------- From edick at idcomm.com Mon Nov 19 15:33:42 2001 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:11:21 2005 Subject: OT: paging MAC expert(s) --- What's a Performa? References: Message-ID: <001801c17141$dca07240$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> Well, I hope it's documented. At least there's a NETSCRAPE for DUMMIES book I can give someone for Christmas. How difficult is it to learn this iCab? I don't want to have to learn it in order to teach someone else. Is it pretty intuitive? (that way I can answer questions on the phone and have some chance of guessing right.) Dick ----- Original Message ----- From: "Chris" To: "Classic Computer" Sent: Monday, November 19, 2001 12:06 PM Subject: Re: OT: paging MAC expert(s) --- What's a Performa? > >I've drawn the conclusion that the only real memory-hog is the Netscape > >browser. > >A couple of folks have advised me to install a 32MB simm for that purpose > >alone. > >It would certainly be a shame to make the system buckle when browsing just > >because it lacks RAM. > > I would give iCab a try (www.icab.de), it is free, and works extremely > well. It uses way less RAM than Netscape, so it should work with just 8mb > installed (4mb might be tight). I am running the latest version right now > and it is taking up just 2.9mb of RAM. > > It is also faster and more stable than Netscape in my experience... and > it is actively under development even for the 68k version, something you > won't get with Netscape (the 68k version is dead in the water for > Netscape). > > -chris > > > > From edick at idcomm.com Mon Nov 19 15:34:42 2001 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:11:21 2005 Subject: OT: paging MAC expert(s) --- What's a Performa? References: Message-ID: <002001c17142$01aed5e0$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> Well, I'm not complaining, except that it wasn't what I was expecting the thing to do. It's not a problem if one can know in advance and make a pot of coffee. Dick ----- Original Message ----- From: "Chris" To: "Classic Computer" Sent: Monday, November 19, 2001 12:10 PM Subject: RE: OT: paging MAC expert(s) --- What's a Performa? > >I have yet to figure out why they couldn't have done the disk reads/writes > >in the background while you do some other things. I believe it's likely to > >be a "left-over" from early days. > > Certain hardware could do background read/write starting with 7.5.3 (? > maybe .5). I used to do it with my Quarda 610. Also, as of OS 8.0, > read/write can be done in the background on all hardware that supports OS > 8.0 (32 bit clean, 040's or better). I regularly put long file copies in > the background and continue doing other things. > > -chris > > > > From edick at idcomm.com Mon Nov 19 16:05:47 2001 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:11:21 2005 Subject: OT: paging MAC expert(s) --- What's a Performa? References: <3B55D7F383B0D31197D9009027541CBF1170DE98@cmiexch1.cmi.itds.com> <000f01c17126$bed4d640$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> <3BF94534.64957004@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <002401c17146$57c59320$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> Well, I've said this before, but not this week ... My experience has been that folks who have a backup device, capable of doing a full scheduled (automatic, without human intervention) system backup of everything accessible to the system on a single element of the medium the device uses, always seem to have good backup. That's not true of the guys who have to swap disks or tapes. It doesn't have to be that way, but history seems to support the notion that it's a really good thing to keep in mind. For some guys that means they have to have a library of very large capacity, and, therefore, cost, but that's the price of having your data secured. The procedure I use is automatic enough, but terribly time-consuming. It requires that I deal with the WIndows long file names with a program called DOSLFNBK, which substitutes DOS-compatible 8.3 names for the longer WINDOWS filenames, and maintains a lookup table of them. It then backs up to tape, and then reverses the DOSLFNBK process before the system is once again useable except under DOS. more below ... Dick ----- Original Message ----- From: "Ben Franchuk" To: Sent: Monday, November 19, 2001 10:45 AM Subject: Re: OT: paging MAC expert(s) --- What's a Performa? > Richard Erlacher wrote: > > There's something about the OS that interferes with a backup. The Microsoft > > Backup for Win98 seems to work ...sorta... but it only works ...sorta... and > > falls down many times, misinterpreting a drive that the OS recognizes correctly > > to be a 2GB partition to be 300+ Terabytes. Naturally it falls down later > > because of that problem. > > I suspect this was you were never meant to backup the complete system. > Why that might mean somebody could make a illegal copy of windows. > The few backup programs I have looked at but never could afford still > run under DOS and will back up your windows system with out the OS. > There is just too much crap in windows that makes it nearly impossible > to backup. And of course you have to load windows to run a windows > backup. > (Stupid)! > That's not entirely true, since some 3rd party products have "emergency recovery" or crash recovery procedures that will restore from a backup set without first reinstalling the OS. Now, moving 875 GB from tape to disk takes a while and installing Windows, which takes 30-45 minutes, will trim as much as 2 hours off that time, but it's quite a bit safer to restore the last known-good backup and go from there. Some 3rd party software also specifically includes backup of the registry, which is key to restoring the system as-is. I really don't see how they can restore a file without the corresponding registry entries. > > > An OS without a real backup utility is of little use because you have to have > > backup ... not just copies of things, but a real backup, context and all, that > > enables you to get back to where you were. DOS didn't have that, UNIX doesn't > > have it (though it does have TAR, which makes copies to tape), OS/2 doesn't have > > it, LINUX doesn't have it ... I don't know what a guy's to do. I guess > > image-copying the disk to tape, empty space and all, is the only solution. Of > > course that means the files are replaceable only on an all or nothing basis. > > ^%$#@! ... what a bunch of crap! > > Since I have a small HD I do a tar from my boot disk for linux, for the > entire HD to a bunch of Zip disks. A bit messy but I know I recover > the entire OS should my HD fail with tar. > I keep waiting for a current set of doc's for LINUX. However, while the OS may be on version 12-something (which it's not) the doc is still on version 0.0-something, (not really the case either) but it's not far into the basic doc's that one runs into missing key words, like "NOT." I use Windows, so I can't get by with a small hard disk. By today's standards, however, a 100GB hard disk is a small one, so maybe one can get by with a small drive. (Have you tried to buy a new <10GB drive lately?) On that scale, I guess what I use is considered tiny. > > Ben Franchuk. > > From edick at idcomm.com Mon Nov 19 16:09:43 2001 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:11:21 2005 Subject: OT: paging MAC expert(s) --- What's a Performa? References: <3B55D7F383B0D31197D9009027541CBF1170DE9F@cmiexch1.cmi.itds.com> Message-ID: <002a01c17146$e4c5c420$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> If your recorded "backup" is a bit-for-bit image of the disk contents, transferred to and from tape, there's no interpretation of the contents into files that can take place, is there? The Microsoft Backup that came with DOS, (a) never really was a backup, but, rather, was just a copy, and (b) never worked together with its "restore" function. Under DOS, copies were adequate, since the context didn't matter. Dick ----- Original Message ----- From: "Christopher Smith" To: Sent: Monday, November 19, 2001 12:24 PM Subject: RE: OT: paging MAC expert(s) --- What's a Performa? > > -----Original Message----- > > From: Richard Erlacher [mailto:edick@idcomm.com] > > > I'm concerned mainly about Win9x. There were numerous backup > > packages that > > worked VERY well under [DOS6.22/Win3.11]. Since the release > > of Win9x, I've > > bought several backup packages, and a couple of releases of > > each, yet not seen > > one that even barely worked on any sort of consistent basis. > > Ahh, well if you allow third-parties into the picture, it changes somewhat. > > > [Backup utility problems snipped] > > > There's something about the OS that interferes with a backup. > > The Microsoft > > Backup for Win98 seems to work ...sorta... but it only works > > ...sorta... and > > falls down many times, misinterpreting a drive that the OS > > recognizes correctly > > to be a 2GB partition to be 300+ Terabytes. Naturally it > > falls down later > > because of that problem. > > Since it's a microsoft utility, you can bet that the moment you upgrade > windows, the backups will be unusable, since the new, improved version will > be completely incompatible. > > > An OS without a real backup utility is of little use because > > you have to have > > backup ... not just copies of things, but a real backup, > > context and all, that > > Bingo. Windows is not an enterprise class system, nor, IMNSHO, is it even > worthy of being used in a production context. ... but back to the topic at > hand. :) > > > enables you to get back to where you were. DOS didn't have > > In a single utility? Perhaps not, but how much "context" do you expect from > DOS? :) The built-in backup program would copy files onto some other > medium, and a recovery disk could at least be made relatively simply. Maybe > I'm misunderstanding your complaint, though. > > My problem with the DOS backup utility was that every time somebody at m$ > re-compiled something, your old backups were useless. > > I assume a third-party add-on would fix that. > > > that, UNIX doesn't > > have it (though it does have TAR, which makes copies to > > I find that TAR gives me useable backups in general. Again, there's no such > thing as a "standalone tar," so you'll need a recovery disk/tape/something. > > It also has CPIO if you're into that sort of thing, and several third-party > things. > > > tape), OS/2 doesn't have > > it, LINUX doesn't have it ... I don't know what a guy's to > > See unix above... also note that TAR may be available for OS/2. > > It is slightly harder to build an OS/2 recovery disk. > > > do. I guess > > image-copying the disk to tape, empty space and all, is the > > only solution. Of > > course that means the files are replaceable only on an all or > > nothing basis. > > Well, do you consider that space part of your "context?" Where is the line > drawn? Also note that the empty space isn't exactly empty in most cases. > > As for "all-or-nothing" replacement, that's not exactly the case. You > certainly could mount an image right from the backup device (very slowly for > tape ;) and read files out. It would be a larger problem if your backups > don't fit filesystem-for-cartrige. > > I'm relatively convinced that as long as you can backup files and attributes > (including ACL, etc), treating special files as if they were (special, that > is...), you ought to be ok. > > The only place you'd get bitten is in systems that need to know an exact > location of a bootable image, or other such special file. That can probably > be handled in the restore procedure, though. > > So I think DOS and Unix can be backed up pretty well. Windows is a > different story, I guess. It would help, for windows, of course, if they'd > provide a decent, uniform, block-device access method. Don't hold your > breath, though. > > > ^%$#@! ... what a bunch of crap! > > What really makes it inexcusable is the fact that a backup utility shouldn't > be too difficult to cook up. > > Regards, > > Chris > > > Christopher Smith, Perl Developer > Amdocs - Champaign, IL > > /usr/bin/perl -e ' > print((~"\x95\xc4\xe3"^"Just Another Perl Hacker.")."\x08!\n"); > ' > > > From edick at idcomm.com Mon Nov 19 16:11:38 2001 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:11:21 2005 Subject: 1771 floppy controller questions References: Message-ID: <003a01c17147$28d5c700$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> You can get one for cheap if you go down to the thrift store and buy an old TRS-80. That will cost less than a new WD1771, I'd bet. Dick ----- Original Message ----- From: "Tothwolf" To: Sent: Monday, November 19, 2001 1:11 PM Subject: 1771 floppy controller questions > I have a complete TRS-80 Model I that has a dead Western Digital FD1771-01 > chip in its expansion interface. Does anyone know if a National 1771-B01 > is a suitable replacement? What would be a fair/reasonable price for a new > 1771 these days? > > -Toth > > From zaft at azstarnet.com Mon Nov 19 16:13:58 2001 From: zaft at azstarnet.com (Gordon Zaft) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:11:21 2005 Subject: SCB68430 DMA controller data sheets etc. Message-ID: <4.3.2.7.2.20011119151244.00b1d0c8@mail.azstarnet.com> Anyone know of a source for data sheets and app notes for the SCB68430 DMA controller? I couldn't find anything via Google. GZ From KenzieM at sympatico.ca Mon Nov 19 16:32:14 2001 From: KenzieM at sympatico.ca (Mike Kenzie) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:11:21 2005 Subject: Nortel yard sale References: <200111190323.WAA04615@freenet10.carleton.ca> Message-ID: <000601c1714a$11d7abb0$0101a8c0@sympatico.ca> I don't know how much classic stuff there may be but it anyone is interested: > > Anyone know about this: > > > > Item in Canadian Business magazine, November 26, 2001, p. 11. > > > > "If you like poking around garage sales, you won't wanna miss this. On Nov. > > 28 and 29 in Ottawa, Nortel will hold the first of a series of sales to try > > to raise $100 million to offset some of the billions lost in the past year. > > Globally, it hopes to unload more than 20,000 pieces of used equipment, some > > for less than 20% of original cost." From Lee.Davison at merlincommunications.com Mon Nov 19 16:44:16 2001 From: Lee.Davison at merlincommunications.com (Davison, Lee) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:11:21 2005 Subject: SCB68430 DMA controller data sheets etc. Message-ID: <707AA588EE28D311BCD50090276D7D0002146DE3@BUSH02> Anyone know of a source for data sheets and app notes for the SCB68430 DMA controller? I couldn't find anything via Google. It's available on http:\\www.freetradezone.com . There are two versions of the sheet, D0194930.pdf is the 1988 version, D0191623.pdf is the earlier 1996 version. Lee. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- ---- This email is intended only for the above named addressee(s). The information contained in this email may contain information which is confidential. The views expressed in this email are personal to the sender and do not in any way reflect the views of the company. If you have received this email and you are not a named addressee please delete it from your system and contact Merlin Communications International IT Department on +44 20 7344 5888. _____________________________________________________________________ This message has been checked for all known viruses by Star Internet delivered through the MessageLabs Virus Scanning Service. For further information visit http://www.star.net.uk/stats.asp or alternatively call Star Internet for details on the Virus Scanning Service. From gmphillips at earthlink.net Mon Nov 19 16:53:48 2001 From: gmphillips at earthlink.net (John Galt) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:11:21 2005 Subject: Intel C8080A chip brings $565 on EBAY References: <7A9BACCEF0171D4FB77019F5104CDD37225935@jeffserver.tegjeff.com> Message-ID: <002901c1714d$0db5e710$0100a8c0@sys1> I have come to the conclusion that I have become "The Man" trying to "exploit the people" here, that I have become part of "The establishment". I think it is time to have the mothership beam me back up. Peace, Love, and all that good stuff. Later... John Galt P.S. Someone please explain to me how to unsubscribe from this mailing list. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Douglas Quebbeman" To: Sent: Monday, November 19, 2001 10:56 AM Subject: RE: Intel C8080A chip brings $565 on EBAY > > On the other hand, wearing a name tag that says "John Galt" > > in a room full of techies is an unpardonably cheesy offense. > > What would Bob the Lizard say? "...more gin..." > > -- > No Tourbots From csmith at amdocs.com Mon Nov 19 17:00:39 2001 From: csmith at amdocs.com (Christopher Smith) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:11:21 2005 Subject: OT: paging MAC expert(s) --- What's a Performa? Message-ID: <3B55D7F383B0D31197D9009027541CBF1170DEA5@cmiexch1.cmi.itds.com> > -----Original Message----- > From: Richard Erlacher [mailto:edick@idcomm.com] > If your recorded "backup" is a bit-for-bit image of the disk contents, > transferred to and from tape, there's no interpretation of > the contents into > files that can take place, is there? That's an interesting way to phrase this particular question, since the contents are already in the form of "files" -- that is, if you ask the set of drivers that got them to the disk in the first place. :) I believe it's possible (though it would be slow) to interpret a bit-for-bit image directly on a tape and extract any given file, along with attributes, etc. In fact, any operation that would be possible on a disk, in this case, could be handled on a tape. The clincher is that it would involve a lot of seek/rewind/seek/etc/etc.. The underlying O/S need not even know the difference between the disk and tape, except to know that the tape is removable (...that's not absolutely required), and perhaps that it's incredibly slow. The worst that would be required is a device abstraction layer or the like. You could write one yourself which would make the tape device "look" like a disk device, for systems which don't have such a thing, and that would be enough. How would you like to be able to mount your backup tape, and use a file-manager on it? ;) > The Microsoft Backup that came with DOS, (a) never really was > a backup, but, > rather, was just a copy, and (b) never worked together with > its "restore" > function. Under DOS, copies were adequate, since the context > didn't matter. If you mean that it didn't store attributes, or that sort of thing, you may be right (never paid attention.) On the other hand, you're also right to say that it wouldn't particularly matter under MS-DOS. Regards, Chris Christopher Smith, Perl Developer Amdocs - Champaign, IL /usr/bin/perl -e ' print((~"\x95\xc4\xe3"^"Just Another Perl Hacker.")."\x08!\n"); ' From jfoust at threedee.com Mon Nov 19 16:57:10 2001 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:11:21 2005 Subject: OT: paging MAC expert(s) --- What's a Performa? In-Reply-To: <002401c17146$57c59320$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> References: <3B55D7F383B0D31197D9009027541CBF1170DE98@cmiexch1.cmi.itds.com> <000f01c17126$bed4d640$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> <3BF94534.64957004@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <5.0.0.25.0.20011119165437.022272e8@pc> At 03:05 PM 11/19/2001 -0700, you wrote: >My experience has been that folks who have a backup device, capable of doing a >full scheduled (automatic, without human intervention) system backup of >everything accessible to the system on a single element of the medium the device >uses, always seem to have good backup. These days on today's PCs, it's easier to buy a spare hard disk, and copy (using 'at', the scheduler, TaskZip, whatever) your vital files to it. Take a tape backup off-site as frequently as you like, or just carry the spare hard disk. - John From CLeyson at aol.com Mon Nov 19 17:01:38 2001 From: CLeyson at aol.com (CLeyson@aol.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:11:21 2005 Subject: SCB68430 DMA controller data sheets etc. Message-ID: <9e.1d971788.292ae952@aol.com> In a message dated 11/19/01 10:25:21 PM GMT Standard Time, zaft@azstarnet.com writes: > SCB68430 Try www.partminer.com Chris Leyson -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20011119/18beb7a2/attachment-0001.html From mtapley at swri.edu Mon Nov 19 17:14:35 2001 From: mtapley at swri.edu (Mark Tapley) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:11:21 2005 Subject: Another Old-computer dealer. Message-ID: All, Located another dealer (Mike Hancock) of old computer parts in S. Central Texas, this one in San Antonio. This is of interest to me, because this is where SwRI's cast-offs go, so there is likely to be some *unique* equipment there. http://www.ctbicompany.com I think he has the same general M.O. as the previous place I found; that is to say, he gets a *lot* of stuff, filters out and saves what he thinks he can sell, then scraps the rest. I have not seen his warehouse. Have we developed a clear, easy-to-use "wanted" list or website for this group? It'd be neat to be able to hand this guy (Mike Hancock) or other dealers the list or URL, and tell them if they see something on the list, save it, it's worth $xxx. Could we set up a database/bid deal, where anyone can add to the list of "want" items, and what they'd pay for it? - Mark From mythtech at Mac.com Mon Nov 19 17:19:05 2001 From: mythtech at Mac.com (Chris) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:11:21 2005 Subject: OT: paging MAC expert(s) --- What's a Performa? Message-ID: >Well, I hope it's documented. At least there's a NETSCRAPE for DUMMIES >book I >can give someone for Christmas. How difficult is it to learn this iCab? I >don't want to have to learn it in order to teach someone else. Is it pretty >intuitive? (that way I can answer questions on the phone and have some >chance >of guessing right.) If you can browse the web, you can operate iCab. You probably will never find a book on iCab, because it doesn't need one... it works, and it works in the most obvious of ways (type in a url, or choose one from the hotlist menu). It doesn't suffer from bloatware, so there is nothing to get lost or confused with. If you can read, you can work iCab (and you need not have to read a specific language, as it is available in a bunch of them). -chris From dmabry at mich.com Mon Nov 19 17:25:24 2001 From: dmabry at mich.com (Dave Mabry) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:11:21 2005 Subject: Dead Intel MDS controller board Message-ID: <3BF994E4.F819727A@mich.com> Well, much to my dismay, but not too surprising, my last set of floppy diskette controller boards has failed and my Intel MDS is severely crippled. In my days of designing systems with Intel Microcomputer Development Systems I saw many of the floppy controller boards fail. That system had a two-board set of multibus cards in order to control up to four floppy diskettes. Seems kind of funny to call those huge 8" floppys "diskettes", but that's what they are. Anyway, of that two board set, I always have seen the same one fail. One card called the Channel Card which was based on Intel's 3000 series bipolar microprocessor never failed. It was always the other card, the Double Density Interface Board. When I "retired" all the MDSs where I worked, I kept three sets of those boards to keep my MDS going, fully expecting to have one or maybe even two go "bits up". Alas, last week, my third and last board set failed. And, yes, it was the interface card. The purpose of this post is to see if there might be someone on this list who would be able to advise me on a strategy for troubleshooting it (Tony Duell?) Better yet, but I'm not going to hold my breath on this one, would be someone who has an SBC-202 board-set he might be willing to part with, sell, trade, etc. Any ideas or leads would be appreciated. And, Tony, I might have a space ICE-80 manual for you. Will know next week. Thanks. Dave -- Dave Mabry dmabry@mich.com Dossin Museum Underwater Research Team NACD #2093 From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Nov 19 17:30:24 2001 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:11:21 2005 Subject: Intel C8080A chip brings $565 on EBAY In-Reply-To: <001501c170ac$5276fca0$0100a8c0@sys1> from "John Galt" at Nov 18, 1 10:43:15 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1859 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20011119/7bd0e021/attachment-0001.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Nov 19 17:23:36 2001 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:11:21 2005 Subject: Intel C8080A chip brings $565 on EBAY In-Reply-To: <001301c170a0$5e49fcf0$0100a8c0@sys1> from "John Galt" at Nov 18, 1 09:17:40 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 2067 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20011119/72587d38/attachment-0001.ksh From greg at cosc.canterbury.ac.nz Mon Nov 19 18:26:50 2001 From: greg at cosc.canterbury.ac.nz (Greg Ewing) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:11:21 2005 Subject: OT: paging MAC expert(s) --- What's a Performa? In-Reply-To: <3B55D7F383B0D31197D9009027541CBF1170DE89@cmiexch1.cmi.itds.com> Message-ID: <200111200026.NAA14000@s454.cosc.canterbury.ac.nz> Christopher Smith : > Finder is the Macintosh shell. Best not to confuse the users with terms > like "file manager," "shell," "interface," "front-end," Those are such dry, boring, Microsoft-sounding names. Finder is so much cooler! And it's not so much of a misnomer if you think of it the right way. It lets *you* find things -- i.e. browse the file system. Also, it finds an appropriate application to launch for you when you open a document. By the way, System 7 and later Finders do have a "Find..." command that will let you search for files by name. Greg Ewing, Computer Science Dept, +--------------------------------------+ University of Canterbury, | A citizen of NewZealandCorp, a | Christchurch, New Zealand | wholly-owned subsidiary of USA Inc. | greg@cosc.canterbury.ac.nz +--------------------------------------+ From pete at dunnington.u-net.com Mon Nov 19 18:35:02 2001 From: pete at dunnington.u-net.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:11:21 2005 Subject: PDP-8 case Message-ID: <10111200035.ZM15509@mindy.dunnington.u-net.com> I've been cleaning up my recently-acquired PDP-8/E, and I've had to remove the plastic foam from the inside of the lid, which was fairly horrible. I'm not sure what best to replace it with, as the foam was in two parts. The square(ish) area above the rear Omnibus section was ordinary brown high-density plastic foam, about 3/8" thick, but most of the area above the front section was black conductive foam. Is this original? Was it supposed to protect the boards that have H851 over-the-top connectors from static that might have been carried by ordinary foam? I'd have thought the leakage through the conductive foam might upset some circuits. So, should I use ordinary high-density foam, or conductive? -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager University of York From zaft at azstarnet.com Mon Nov 19 18:47:08 2001 From: zaft at azstarnet.com (Gordon Zaft) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:11:21 2005 Subject: SCB68430 DMA controller data sheets etc. In-Reply-To: <707AA588EE28D311BCD50090276D7D0002146DE3@BUSH02> Message-ID: <4.3.2.7.2.20011119174644.01ddb3f0@mail.azstarnet.com> At 10:44 PM 11/19/2001 +0000, you wrote: > Anyone know of a source for data sheets and app notes for >the SCB68430 DMA > controller? I couldn't find anything via Google. > > >It's available on http:\\www.freetradezone.com . There are two versions >of the sheet, D0194930.pdf is the 1988 version, D0191623.pdf is the >earlier 1996 version. Thanks! I was able to find it and a lot of other stuff too. GZ From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Nov 19 18:18:40 2001 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:11:21 2005 Subject: Dead Intel MDS controller board In-Reply-To: <3BF994E4.F819727A@mich.com> from "Dave Mabry" at Nov 19, 1 06:25:24 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1589 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20011120/3413e50b/attachment-0001.ksh From edick at idcomm.com Mon Nov 19 18:59:31 2001 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:11:22 2005 Subject: SCB68430 DMA controller data sheets etc. References: <4.3.2.7.2.20011119151244.00b1d0c8@mail.azstarnet.com> Message-ID: <001701c1715e$9cf2b1e0$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> That's a SIGNETICS part number and PHILIPS bought them in '89-'90 timeframe. Have you tried the Philips web site? Dick ----- Original Message ----- From: "Gordon Zaft" To: Sent: Monday, November 19, 2001 3:13 PM Subject: SCB68430 DMA controller data sheets etc. > > Anyone know of a source for data sheets and app notes for the SCB68430 DMA > controller? I couldn't find anything via Google. > > GZ > > From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Nov 19 18:53:42 2001 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:11:22 2005 Subject: PDP-8 case In-Reply-To: <10111200035.ZM15509@mindy.dunnington.u-net.com> from "Pete Turnbull" at Nov 20, 1 00:35:02 am Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1486 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20011120/15d8e762/attachment-0001.ksh From edick at idcomm.com Mon Nov 19 19:07:43 2001 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:11:22 2005 Subject: OT: paging MAC expert(s) --- What's a Performa? References: <3B55D7F383B0D31197D9009027541CBF1170DEA5@cmiexch1.cmi.itds.com> Message-ID: <002701c1715f$c204a280$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> If you're meaning operating on the tape contents, you're talking about weeks to months. The bits of a file are scattered around the disk, since it's random access, albeit in "clusters" or whatever you choose to call them, and in blocks, as the data buffer stores them, but unless you KNOW where the directory is in the bitwise image of the disk, and unless you know where all the pieces of the drive are to be found in the tape image, I'd submit it would be a mite tedious. The problem, of course, with image backup, is that the bits have to be extracted from the drive at the raw data level, i.e. with controller commands you normally don't deal with, and they can't be faithfully restored to a drive that's not physically identical to the one you started with, i.e. same number of heads, cylinders, sectors, etc, PHYSICALLY, else things fall apart, since we don't know how the drive firmware deals with translating from the block-level commands the OS may choose to send it, though it doesn't have to, to the buffers-full of data that the drive coughs up. Remember, when you restart the system, it has no OS other than what you can load from a floppy. IF that's the same, which certainly isn't the case under WIndows, as what you used to do the backup, then you're able, potentially, to deal with the data to be transferred to the newly cleaned drive in the same way that this particular OS deals with it. Of course, the OS doesn't know what you're doing, and doesn't know how to read the data on the disk, except as raw data, dealt with in buffer-fulls, and than only using the code you've written. Dick ----- Original Message ----- From: "Christopher Smith" To: Sent: Monday, November 19, 2001 4:00 PM Subject: RE: OT: paging MAC expert(s) --- What's a Performa? > > -----Original Message----- > > From: Richard Erlacher [mailto:edick@idcomm.com] > > > If your recorded "backup" is a bit-for-bit image of the disk contents, > > transferred to and from tape, there's no interpretation of > > the contents into > > files that can take place, is there? > > That's an interesting way to phrase this particular question, since the > contents are already in the form of "files" -- that is, if you ask the set > of drivers that got them to the disk in the first place. :) > > I believe it's possible (though it would be slow) to interpret a bit-for-bit > image directly on a tape and extract any given file, along with attributes, > etc. In fact, any operation that would be possible on a disk, in this case, > could be handled on a tape. The clincher is that it would involve a lot of > seek/rewind/seek/etc/etc.. > > The underlying O/S need not even know the difference between the disk and > tape, except to know that the tape is removable (...that's not absolutely > required), and perhaps that it's incredibly slow. > > The worst that would be required is a device abstraction layer or the like. > You could write one yourself which would make the tape device "look" like a > disk device, for systems which don't have such a thing, and that would be > enough. > > How would you like to be able to mount your backup tape, and use a > file-manager on it? ;) > > > The Microsoft Backup that came with DOS, (a) never really was > > a backup, but, > > rather, was just a copy, and (b) never worked together with > > its "restore" > > function. Under DOS, copies were adequate, since the context > > didn't matter. > > If you mean that it didn't store attributes, or that sort of thing, you may > be right (never paid attention.) On the other hand, you're also right to > say that it wouldn't particularly matter under MS-DOS. > > Regards, > > Chris > > > Christopher Smith, Perl Developer > Amdocs - Champaign, IL > > /usr/bin/perl -e ' > print((~"\x95\xc4\xe3"^"Just Another Perl Hacker.")."\x08!\n"); > ' > > > From greg at cosc.canterbury.ac.nz Mon Nov 19 19:09:59 2001 From: greg at cosc.canterbury.ac.nz (Greg Ewing) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:11:22 2005 Subject: PDP-8 case In-Reply-To: <10111200035.ZM15509@mindy.dunnington.u-net.com> Message-ID: <200111200109.OAA14026@s454.cosc.canterbury.ac.nz> pete@dunnington.u-net.com (Pete Turnbull): > I'd have thought the > leakage through the conductive foam might upset some circuits. I think so-called "conductive" foam actually has quite a high resistance. If that's so, it would be unlikely to upset any ordinary logic circuit. Greg Ewing, Computer Science Dept, +--------------------------------------+ University of Canterbury, | A citizen of NewZealandCorp, a | Christchurch, New Zealand | wholly-owned subsidiary of USA Inc. | greg@cosc.canterbury.ac.nz +--------------------------------------+ From edick at idcomm.com Mon Nov 19 19:15:46 2001 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:11:22 2005 Subject: OT: paging MAC expert(s) --- What's a Performa? References: <3B55D7F383B0D31197D9009027541CBF1170DE98@cmiexch1.cmi.itds.com> <000f01c17126$bed4d640$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> <3BF94534.64957004@jetnet.ab.ca> <5.0.0.25.0.20011119165437.022272e8@pc> Message-ID: <002d01c17160$e3077380$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> Well, there's one of the differences between backup and file copy. If you introduce a spare disk to a system then, at least in the case of the various post-'9x Windows, the OS "sees" it, registers it, and any viruses on the system are, immediately on that drive as well. With a TAPE utility, however, virus or not, if the program runs, it copies the data to tape under control of a backup utility that either doesn't work because it has been corrupted, or, if you were clever and run the program form a write-locked removable, then it (the backup utility) runs on the removable platter and transfer the data, corrupted or not, from the hard disk to the tape. Viruses can't deal directly with the tape, just as the OS can't deal directly with the tape. A virus that gets onto a tape won't be an executable, hence probably won't go there except in the form of already-corrupted files. As a result, I've concluded DISK is unsuitable for backup on Windows PC's. Now, I recently saw a DVD writer for under $500. ($375) If there's any sort of support software for backup, that might present a useable solution, since a DVD writer would not appear to Windows as a disk drive. Of course, MAC OS may not be so virus friendly, but I don't know about that. The "spare" HD would have to be a SCSI drive, right? How does the MAC go about recognizing a valid SCSI device? What has to be done to a JAZ platter to make it (the MAC) recognize it. Dick ----- Original Message ----- From: "John Foust" To: Sent: Monday, November 19, 2001 3:57 PM Subject: Re: OT: paging MAC expert(s) --- What's a Performa? > At 03:05 PM 11/19/2001 -0700, you wrote: > >My experience has been that folks who have a backup device, capable of doing a > >full scheduled (automatic, without human intervention) system backup of > >everything accessible to the system on a single element of the medium the device > >uses, always seem to have good backup. > > These days on today's PCs, it's easier to buy a spare > hard disk, and copy (using 'at', the scheduler, TaskZip, > whatever) your vital files to it. Take a tape backup > off-site as frequently as you like, or just carry the > spare hard disk. > > - John > > From edick at idcomm.com Mon Nov 19 19:19:47 2001 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:11:22 2005 Subject: OT: paging MAC expert(s) --- What's a Performa? References: Message-ID: <003501c17161$720ff7a0$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> Well, that's a "Which came first the chicken or the egg?" question, since the person to whom this box is going hasn't done any web browsing. My own first experiences were with NetCruiser (Netcom) and with MOSAIC (NCSA), aside from a couple of cripling experiences with LYNX. After using LYNX, by the way, I switched to a shell-based interface via Win3.1x called ICOMM. That worked OK, considering. Dick ----- Original Message ----- From: "Chris" To: "Classic Computer" Sent: Monday, November 19, 2001 4:19 PM Subject: Re: OT: paging MAC expert(s) --- What's a Performa? > >Well, I hope it's documented. At least there's a NETSCRAPE for DUMMIES > >book I > >can give someone for Christmas. How difficult is it to learn this iCab? I > >don't want to have to learn it in order to teach someone else. Is it pretty > >intuitive? (that way I can answer questions on the phone and have some > >chance > >of guessing right.) > > If you can browse the web, you can operate iCab. You probably will never > find a book on iCab, because it doesn't need one... it works, and it > works in the most obvious of ways (type in a url, or choose one from the > hotlist menu). It doesn't suffer from bloatware, so there is nothing to > get lost or confused with. If you can read, you can work iCab (and you > need not have to read a specific language, as it is available in a bunch > of them). > > -chris > > > > From edick at idcomm.com Mon Nov 19 19:22:34 2001 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:11:22 2005 Subject: OT: paging MAC expert(s) --- What's a Performa? References: <200111200026.NAA14000@s454.cosc.canterbury.ac.nz> Message-ID: <004701c17161$d5293ae0$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> Well, that's quite true, isn't it? The one observation I'd make is that, to those of us who can't remember computers much before Microsoft, the microsoft terms are quite a bit more familiar, while the Apple terms are like Greek. I suppose it's much the same looking the other direction. Dick ----- Original Message ----- From: "Greg Ewing" To: Sent: Monday, November 19, 2001 5:26 PM Subject: RE: OT: paging MAC expert(s) --- What's a Performa? > Christopher Smith : > > > Finder is the Macintosh shell. Best not to confuse the users with terms > > like "file manager," "shell," "interface," "front-end," > > Those are such dry, boring, Microsoft-sounding names. > Finder is so much cooler! > > And it's not so much of a misnomer if you think of it > the right way. It lets *you* find things -- i.e. browse > the file system. Also, it finds an appropriate application > to launch for you when you open a document. > > By the way, System 7 and later Finders do have a > "Find..." command that will let you search for files > by name. > > Greg Ewing, Computer Science Dept, +--------------------------------------+ > University of Canterbury, | A citizen of NewZealandCorp, a | > Christchurch, New Zealand | wholly-owned subsidiary of USA Inc. | > greg@cosc.canterbury.ac.nz +--------------------------------------+ > > From edick at idcomm.com Mon Nov 19 19:35:49 2001 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:11:22 2005 Subject: PDP-8 case References: <200111200109.OAA14026@s454.cosc.canterbury.ac.nz> Message-ID: <000701c17163$af3e9620$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> ISTR something about megohms per linear inch... I doubt that will bother PDP-8 circuits much. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Greg Ewing" To: Sent: Monday, November 19, 2001 6:09 PM Subject: Re: PDP-8 case > pete@dunnington.u-net.com (Pete Turnbull): > > > I'd have thought the > > leakage through the conductive foam might upset some circuits. > > I think so-called "conductive" foam actually has quite > a high resistance. If that's so, it would be unlikely > to upset any ordinary logic circuit. > > Greg Ewing, Computer Science Dept, +--------------------------------------+ > University of Canterbury, | A citizen of NewZealandCorp, a | > Christchurch, New Zealand | wholly-owned subsidiary of USA Inc. | > greg@cosc.canterbury.ac.nz +--------------------------------------+ > > From claudew at videotron.ca Mon Nov 19 20:04:41 2001 From: claudew at videotron.ca (Claude.W) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:11:22 2005 Subject: Nortel yard sale -- MORE DETAILS PLEASE!? References: <200111190323.WAA04615@freenet10.carleton.ca> <000601c1714a$11d7abb0$0101a8c0@sympatico.ca> Message-ID: <004f01c17167$b7d14540$0200a8c0@gamerclaude> Finally! Something interesting in Canada... Only a big hour drive from here and very interesting... I want more details Mike...!!! Claude ----- Original Message ----- From: "Mike Kenzie" To: Sent: Monday, November 19, 2001 5:32 PM Subject: Nortel yard sale > I don't know how much classic stuff there may be but it anyone is > interested: > > > > Anyone know about this: > > > > > > Item in Canadian Business magazine, November 26, 2001, p. 11. > > > > > > "If you like poking around garage sales, you won't wanna miss > this. On Nov. > > > 28 and 29 in Ottawa, Nortel will hold the first of a series of > sales to try > > > to raise $100 million to offset some of the billions lost in the > past year. > > > Globally, it hopes to unload more than 20,000 pieces of used > equipment, some > > > for less than 20% of original cost." > > From dmabry at mich.com Mon Nov 19 19:52:41 2001 From: dmabry at mich.com (Dave Mabry) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:11:22 2005 Subject: Dead Intel MDS controller board References: Message-ID: <3BF9B769.7A7B0C21@mich.com> I have that manual (98-422A) and that is the correct one for the SBC-202. I think Intel just gave the 202 name to that board set when it was bought for integration into an application. I am anxious to try to troubleshoot this, but I'm not sure how to go about it. So far all I have tried to boot the MDS. It does select the correct drive and load the head. After a pause of about one second the Interrupt 2 light (on the cpu board, so it is coming from the multibus) lights solid and the boot code in the MDS system rom returns a nondescriptive error message "disk error". When it works correctly (two weeks ago) the interrupt 2 light would pulse (very lightly illuminate) during read. Now it comes on solid. I believe that Int2 is the signal from the controller boards signifying end of operation. FWIW, this seems to be the exact failure mode I've seen in every one I've had fail. And I have three of them to experiment on, if that helps. They work ok one minute, then the next they are bad. Nothing in between. And when I had one good set of boards, the other two sets definately had the interface board bad. I could make any of the three channel boards work with my one good interface board. That is until the last interface board failed. I just read through the manual tonight, but I still need help with a direction for shooting it. I was thinking that I should code a simple routine (in hex since that is all I can think of to load memory in this machine) to try to read somewhere on the disk and see what error code is returned. I would guess it will be CRC error. Note to list: Should we take this private or do you all want to see it? Tony Duell wrote: > > [Intellec FDC Channel board] > > > The purpose of this post is to see if there might be someone on this > > list who would be able to advise me on a strategy for troubleshooting it > > (Tony Duell?) Better yet, but I'm not going to hold my breath on this > > Oh, what the heck, I've got the manuals to hand. Or at least I've got > some manauls to hand. The most appropriate one is 'Intellec Double > Density Diskette Operating System Hardware Reference Manual', order > number 98-422A. I can't find the name 'SBC-202' anywhere on any of the > manuals, so this might not be 100% applicable. > > The interface board described in that manual seems to have 5 separate > sections on it : > > Read Data clcock recovery/sync > > CRC generator/checker > > Write data encoder > > Disk drive control/status signals (basically ports from the microcoded > machine on the other board) > > Bus control (for DMA transfers, mostly, I think). > > My first idea would be to find out which block was malfunctioning. Does > the FDC card appear on the bus at all? Can you select a floppy drive and > move the head around? What goes wrong if you try to read something? > > Since this board contains a fair amount of analogue circuitry (the read > data separator phase-locked loop), it's possible that the only thing > wrong with it is that that the oscillator in said loop has drifted way > off frequency and the loop can no longer lock. But don't start tweaking > things without doing some tests. > > Do you have the hardware manuals? My manual contains a reasonably good > theory-of-operation chapter which explains what's going on on that board. > > -tony -- Dave Mabry dmabry@mich.com Dossin Museum Underwater Research Team NACD #2093 From claudew at videotron.ca Mon Nov 19 20:09:46 2001 From: claudew at videotron.ca (Claude.W) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:11:22 2005 Subject: Slightly OT: Atari 2600s game collecting on "Antiques Road Show" on PBS TV Message-ID: <00b801c17168$6d936c00$0200a8c0@gamerclaude> Its not computer collecting on TV but very close... I tune in to PBS antiques road show (that TV show that goes around US and Canada towns and people bring their antiques to get them evaluated and info on them...) tonight and there was a short (2 mins?) segment on Atari 2600 cart collecting and they showed some examples of sought after carts...and some "values"...explaining this was very "hot collectibles" Do they know about computer collecting also? Claude http://www.members.tripod.com/computer_collector From gunther at aurora.regenstrief.org Mon Nov 19 20:02:26 2001 From: gunther at aurora.regenstrief.org (Gunther Schadow) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:11:22 2005 Subject: RA60 drives anywhere? And stuff... References: <000001c16e91$6f2cba00$7901100a@mdl> Message-ID: <3BF9B9B2.2020603@aurora.regenstrief.org> Hi, I'm wondering if I should get an RA60 drive some time. The idea of removeable hard drives is kind of cool, but I don't want to put up yet another machine, so this one might just fit due to its easy rack-mountable "drawer" style. What is it like, is it as heavy as the RA8x? Also, I have a huge DataProducts printer to go with the DMB32 card, this one actually has DataProducts, Centronics, and RS232 interface. Anyone have a dataproducts cable? On the VAX it looks like a big D-shaped connector with two rows of pins (actually it's female at the side of the VAX). On the printer it looks like a 3-row female D connector, like the KLESI. Which is weird. If someone has urgent need for this printer I might be convinceable to give it away sooner rather than later. Even though my wife likes it (!) and I think it's a cute fast type-machine, I think we won't have room for it. Do you know if that huge tracktor paper is still available for sale somewhere? Anyway, I'll make my announcement sometime at the end of this winter for a bunch of good big iron stuff available in Indianapolis. regards -Gunther -- Gunther Schadow, M.D., Ph.D. gschadow@regenstrief.org Medical Information Scientist Regenstrief Institute for Health Care Adjunct Assistant Professor Indiana University School of Medicine tel:1(317)630-7960 http://aurora.regenstrief.org From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Mon Nov 19 20:04:33 2001 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (ajp166) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:11:22 2005 Subject: PDP-8 case Message-ID: <009d01c17169$39ca5270$71ee9a8d@ajp166> I don't remember that foam as being conductive. Most conductive foams tend to shred, those bits are not kind to the electronics. Allison -----Original Message----- From: Pete Turnbull To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers Date: Monday, November 19, 2001 7:49 PM Subject: PDP-8 case >I've been cleaning up my recently-acquired PDP-8/E, and I've had to remove >the plastic foam from the inside of the lid, which was fairly horrible. > I'm not sure what best to replace it with, as the foam was in two parts. > >The square(ish) area above the rear Omnibus section was ordinary brown >high-density plastic foam, about 3/8" thick, but most of the area above the >front section was black conductive foam. Is this original? Was it >supposed to protect the boards that have H851 over-the-top connectors from >static that might have been carried by ordinary foam? I'd have thought the >leakage through the conductive foam might upset some circuits. > >So, should I use ordinary high-density foam, or conductive? > >-- >Pete Peter Turnbull > Network Manager > University of York From Innfogra at aol.com Mon Nov 19 20:18:01 2001 From: Innfogra at aol.com (Innfogra@aol.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:11:22 2005 Subject: Dead Intel MDS controller board Message-ID: In a message dated 11/19/01 6:01:22 PM Pacific Standard Time, dmabry@mich.com writes: > Note to list: Should we take this private or do you all want to see it? > Please keep it on the list. I find it very interesting. Now if I could find my Multibus 1 cards I could follow along. I think I have a 202 somewhere in there. Paxton Astoria, OR -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20011119/2155b1ed/attachment-0001.html From greg at cosc.canterbury.ac.nz Mon Nov 19 20:22:05 2001 From: greg at cosc.canterbury.ac.nz (Greg Ewing) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:11:22 2005 Subject: OT: paging MAC expert(s) --- What's a Performa? In-Reply-To: <002d01c17160$e3077380$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> Message-ID: <200111200222.PAA14062@s454.cosc.canterbury.ac.nz> Richard Erlacher : > Of course, MAC OS may not be so virus friendly, but I don't know > about that. I can't think of a way for a virus to jump onto a disk on a Mac simply by the disk being there, without any virus-infected program running. Unless a virus has attacked the Finder or the OS itself, which is a possibility, I suppose. But even then, the virus can't jump *off* the disk onto a previously clean system without running something from the disk, and that won't happen unless you explicitly tell it to. If there's some way for that to happen on Windows, then Windows is definitely more virus-friendly! Greg Ewing, Computer Science Dept, +--------------------------------------+ University of Canterbury, | A citizen of NewZealandCorp, a | Christchurch, New Zealand | wholly-owned subsidiary of USA Inc. | greg@cosc.canterbury.ac.nz +--------------------------------------+ From mythtech at Mac.com Mon Nov 19 20:45:54 2001 From: mythtech at Mac.com (Chris) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:11:22 2005 Subject: OT: paging MAC expert(s) --- What's a Performa? Message-ID: <200111200245.UAA13701@opal.tseinc.com> >Of course, MAC OS may not be so virus friendly, but I don't know about that. >The "spare" HD would have to be a SCSI drive, right? How does the MAC go >about >recognizing a valid SCSI device? What has to be done to a JAZ platter to >make >it (the MAC) recognize it. The MacOS is technically no more or less virus friendly than Windows. You just don't have some of the obvious security flaws (like VBScript). But the main reason viri aren't as rampant on the mac as they are on the PC is simply, if you are going to write a virus you are probably trying to hit as many computers as possible... so why write for a 5% market share when you can write for a 90% market share. As for recognizing SCSI devices. The Mac will recognize that a device is connected (if you have some kind of a scsi probe, you can see that the mac knows it is there), but depending on the device, it may or may not be usable without additional software. In the case of tape drives, you need software that will talk to them (like retrospect), Zip and Jaz drives have a small extension that will let the OS see them and treat them like high capacity floppy drives (and I think that extension may have been rolled into OS 9.x but I'm not positive). CDs are similar, they have a driver with the OS, (although that driver tends to only want to support Apple approved CDs, so there are 3rd party drivers like FWB's CD Toolkit, and Toast's CD Reader). Hard Drive support is built into the OS (low level formating and partitioning may need 3rd party software if it isn't an "Apple" drive). Most everything else needs 3rd party software (like scanners, SCSI->Ethernet adaptors, etc.), but usually, the software/drivers are free, and will come with the device (like my Umax scanner software is available free from Umax's web site... but it only works with their scanners) -chris From bshannon at tiac.net Mon Nov 19 21:00:30 2001 From: bshannon at tiac.net (Bob Shannon) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:11:22 2005 Subject: Intel C8080A chip brings $565 on EBAY References: <20011119025154.HEKA10804.tomts19-srv.bellnexxia.net@duron> <3BF7B165.8D0DB730@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <3BF9C74E.DE6A9142@tiac.net> Because the 'new' Imsai is not an S-100 machine? Ben Franchuk wrote: > jpero@sympatico.ca wrote: > > That $2K for Imsai is the supply and demand fostered by clueless but > > greedy people who wanted to make this a collection stuff as a cash > > cow than simply using it and fixing it and play with it, that > > latter is amirable, former is frowned upon. Also Imsai is buggy and > > botched up box. There's better built and properly designed S-100 > > boxens to play with. > > > > Well the whole S-100 bus was a mess for the longest time. > > As reminder IMSAI is back in business at http://www.imsai.net/ > Here you can get parts for your classic 8080 computer or > a new 20MHZ Z80 S-100 bus computer for around $1K. Why pay $2k > for a 2 MHZ 8080 when you can get a 20 MHZ version for half the > price. :) > Ben Franchuk. > -- > Live "Pre-historic Cpu's" -- and you thought they were extinct. > www.jetnet.ab.ca/users/bfranchuk/index.html From bshannon at tiac.net Mon Nov 19 21:00:08 2001 From: bshannon at tiac.net (Bob Shannon) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:11:22 2005 Subject: Intel C8080A chip brings $565 on EBAY References: <20011119025154.HEKA10804.tomts19-srv.bellnexxia.net@duron> <3BF7B165.8D0DB730@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <3BF9C738.3C969739@tiac.net> Becauce the 'new' Imsai is not an S-100 machine? Ben Franchuk wrote: > jpero@sympatico.ca wrote: > > That $2K for Imsai is the supply and demand fostered by clueless but > > greedy people who wanted to make this a collection stuff as a cash > > cow than simply using it and fixing it and play with it, that > > latter is amirable, former is frowned upon. Also Imsai is buggy and > > botched up box. There's better built and properly designed S-100 > > boxens to play with. > > > > Well the whole S-100 bus was a mess for the longest time. > > As reminder IMSAI is back in business at http://www.imsai.net/ > Here you can get parts for your classic 8080 computer or > a new 20MHZ Z80 S-100 bus computer for around $1K. Why pay $2k > for a 2 MHZ 8080 when you can get a 20 MHZ version for half the > price. :) > Ben Franchuk. > -- > Live "Pre-historic Cpu's" -- and you thought they were extinct. > www.jetnet.ab.ca/users/bfranchuk/index.html From mythtech at Mac.com Mon Nov 19 20:52:15 2001 From: mythtech at Mac.com (Chris) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:11:22 2005 Subject: Slightly OT: Atari 2600s game collecting on "Antiques Road Show" on PBS TV Message-ID: <200111200252.UAA13788@opal.tseinc.com> >I tune in to PBS antiques road show (that TV show that goes around US and >Canada towns and people bring their antiques to get them evaluated and info >on them...) tonight and there was a short (2 mins?) segment on Atari 2600 >cart collecting and they showed some examples of sought after carts...and >some "values"...explaining this was very "hot collectibles" And what were some of the wanted carts? Not that I will ever part with any of mine, but it is always nice to know if you have something of monitary value (although, in my case, most of it will be "I had that!", since a "friend" walked off with most of my good ones years ago... kind of like all the first series star wars action figures I blew up with firecrackers in my youth) -chris From bshannon at tiac.net Mon Nov 19 21:16:21 2001 From: bshannon at tiac.net (Bob Shannon) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:11:22 2005 Subject: Intel C8080A chip brings $565 on EBAY References: Message-ID: <3BF9CB05.ADC740D6@tiac.net> In my experiance, very early chips used a purple ceramic with a high thorium content causing the distinctive color. Unfortunatley, this thorium emits low level particles that cause soft errors, which became apparent in the early days of DRAM. This drove a change in ceramic processing and costs, pointing the way towards todays plastic packages. Sellam Ismail wrote: > On Mon, 19 Nov 2001, John Galt wrote: > > > As far as the color, chip collectors refer to that color chip as > > "purple". If you look at it next to a normal "gray" CerDIP, you can > > see the difference. Besides, it would not have mattered had it been > > black. The fact is, it's not the white/gold color of a normal Intel > > C8080A. The printing on the chip is also somewhat different. My > > guess is it's a late run C8080A that was put in the same package they > > used for some of the later C8085AH's. > > My questions is: why does this matter? Will researchers 50 years from now > find the Purple one useful for any sort of study? What makes the Purple > one special beyond just being a pretty if not questionable shade of > purple? > > Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ > International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org From swtpc6800 at home.com Mon Nov 19 21:22:00 2001 From: swtpc6800 at home.com (Michael Holley) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:11:22 2005 Subject: 1771 floppy controller questions References: Message-ID: <001701c17172$84b88460$9865fea9@downstairs> B. G. Micro, www.bgmicro.com, has FD1771s for $4.95. Michael Holley http://www.swtpc.com/mholley/index.html ----- Original Message ----- From: "Tothwolf" To: Sent: Monday, November 19, 2001 12:11 PM Subject: 1771 floppy controller questions > I have a complete TRS-80 Model I that has a dead Western Digital FD1771-01 > chip in its expansion interface. Does anyone know if a National 1771-B01 > is a suitable replacement? What would be a fair/reasonable price for a new > 1771 these days? > > -Toth > > From Innfogra at aol.com Mon Nov 19 21:20:08 2001 From: Innfogra at aol.com (Innfogra@aol.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:11:22 2005 Subject: Slightly OT: Atari 2600s game collecting on "Antiques Road Show" on PBS TV Message-ID: In Oregon it is on in 40 minutes, at 8:00 PM PBS. I look forward to it. Paxton Astoria, OR From mythtech at Mac.com Mon Nov 19 21:22:47 2001 From: mythtech at Mac.com (Chris) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:11:22 2005 Subject: OT: paging MAC expert(s) --- What's a Performa? Message-ID: <200111200322.VAA14346@opal.tseinc.com> >I can't think of a way for a virus to jump onto a disk on a Mac simply >by the disk being there, without any virus-infected program >running. Unless a virus has attacked the Finder or the OS itself, >which is a possibility, I suppose. WDEF could do this, but it was rendered dead by System 7 (it infected the System 6 and earlier desktop database, so when a disk was inserted, it could spread to any uninfected desktop databases) >But even then, the virus can't jump *off* the disk onto a previously >clean system without running something from the disk, and that won't >happen unless you explicitly tell it to. If there's some way for that >to happen on Windows, then Windows is definitely more virus-friendly! Auto-Start worms, but then, you are really sort of running something off the disk (the worm), and these can be stopped by turning off the auto run on insert in the QuickTime control panel. -chris From oliv555 at arrl.net Mon Nov 19 21:29:41 2001 From: oliv555 at arrl.net (no) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:11:22 2005 Subject: RA60 drives anywhere? And stuff... References: <000001c16e91$6f2cba00$7901100a@mdl> <3BF9B9B2.2020603@aurora.regenstrief.org> Message-ID: <3BF9CE25.1010102@arrl.net> Gunther Schadow wrote: > Hi, > > I'm wondering if I should get an RA60 drive some time. The idea > of removeable hard drives is kind of cool, but I don't want to > put up yet another machine, so this one might just fit due to its > easy rack-mountable "drawer" style. What is it like, is it as > heavy as the RA8x? > > > regards > -Gunther > > Probably heavier, though I've not used/owned an RA8x. My main gripe against the RA60 is the reliability issue. I finally replaced the ones on our 11/785 last year with a SABB array (4 x RA72s). And you can fit 2 SABB's in the space of one RA60. The RA-60 packs are cooler looking, though. Even dead ones. :>) -nick From bpope at wordstock.com Mon Nov 19 21:31:44 2001 From: bpope at wordstock.com (Bryan Pope) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:11:22 2005 Subject: Slightly OT: Atari 2600s game collecting on "Antiques Road Show" on PBS TV In-Reply-To: <200111200252.UAA13788@opal.tseinc.com> from "Chris" at Nov 19, 01 09:52:15 pm Message-ID: <200111200331.WAA04769@wordstock.com> > > And what were some of the wanted carts? Not that I will ever part with > any of mine, but it is always nice to know if you have something of > monitary value (although, in my case, most of it will be "I had that!", > since a "friend" walked off with most of my good ones years ago... kind > of like all the first series star wars action figures I blew up with > firecrackers in my youth) > Chase the Chuckwagon would be near the top of the list... If not the top. Cheers, Bryan From gehrich at tampabay.rr.com Mon Nov 19 21:35:00 2001 From: gehrich at tampabay.rr.com (Gene Ehrich) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:11:22 2005 Subject: Slightly OT: Atari 2600s game collecting on "Antiques Road Show" on PBS TV In-Reply-To: <200111200252.UAA13788@opal.tseinc.com> Message-ID: <4.3.2.7.2.20011119223417.00acd430@pop3.norton.antivirus> At 09:52 PM 11/19/01 -0500, you wrote: > >I tune in to PBS antiques road show (that TV show that goes around US and > >Canada towns and people bring their antiques to get them evaluated and info > >on them...) tonight and there was a short (2 mins?) segment on Atari 2600 > >cart collecting and they showed some examples of sought after carts...and > >some "values"...explaining this was very "hot collectibles" > >And what were some of the wanted carts? Not that I will ever part with >any of mine, but it is always nice to know if you have something of >monitary value (although, in my case, most of it will be "I had that!", >since a "friend" walked off with most of my good ones years ago... kind >of like all the first series star wars action figures I blew up with >firecrackers in my youth) I have a bunch of 2600 and 5200 cartridges for sale on my web site. --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- gene@ehrich.com gehrich@tampabay.rr.com P.O. Box 3365 Spring Hill Florida 34611-3365 http://www.voicenet.com/~generic Computer & Video Game Garage Sale From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Mon Nov 19 21:58:38 2001 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (ajp166) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:11:22 2005 Subject: Intel C8080A chip brings $565 on EBAY Message-ID: <00d201c17178$05623160$71ee9a8d@ajp166> That only applied to some of the darker ceramics and early parts were the white. They still had to remove or reduce the gold used in the bond wire and lead frames even for plastic. What drove the price of ceramic way up is ram and cpu prodution rates really jumped up from 1978 to 1984 and the production of ceramic packages could not keep pace. Plastic was always used for ram, and lower in cost. The problem was the early gray silicone plastics were far from hermetic. There would be several generations of the black stuff in an attempt to make the plastic less absorptive of moisture while trying better methods of passivating the die. Then there was the matter of disapating the heat. Even as late as 1984 the failure rates for the D416/4116 dynamic and 2114 and 2167 static parts was noteably higher for plastic than ceramic. I use those cases as they were mature parts by then and still plastic was viewed as less reliable though far lower in cost. Allison -----Original Message----- From: Bob Shannon To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org Date: Monday, November 19, 2001 10:22 PM Subject: Re: Intel C8080A chip brings $565 on EBAY >In my experiance, very early chips used a purple ceramic with a high thorium >content causing the distinctive color. Unfortunatley, this thorium emits low >level >particles that cause soft errors, which became apparent in the early days of DRAM. > >This drove a change in ceramic processing and costs, pointing the way towards >todays plastic packages. > >Sellam Ismail wrote: > >> On Mon, 19 Nov 2001, John Galt wrote: >> >> > As far as the color, chip collectors refer to that color chip as >> > "purple". If you look at it next to a normal "gray" CerDIP, you can >> > see the difference. Besides, it would not have mattered had it been >> > black. The fact is, it's not the white/gold color of a normal Intel >> > C8080A. The printing on the chip is also somewhat different. My >> > guess is it's a late run C8080A that was put in the same package they >> > used for some of the later C8085AH's. >> >> My questions is: why does this matter? Will researchers 50 years from now >> find the Purple one useful for any sort of study? What makes the Purple >> one special beyond just being a pretty if not questionable shade of >> purple? >> >> Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival >> ---------------------------------------------------------------------- -------- >> International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org > From foo at siconic.com Mon Nov 19 21:52:11 2001 From: foo at siconic.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:11:22 2005 Subject: Intel C8080A chip brings $565 on EBAY In-Reply-To: <3BF9CB05.ADC740D6@tiac.net> Message-ID: On Mon, 19 Nov 2001, Bob Shannon wrote: > In my experiance, very early chips used a purple ceramic with a high > thorium content causing the distinctive color. Unfortunatley, this > thorium emits low level particles that cause soft errors, which became > apparent in the early days of DRAM. > > This drove a change in ceramic processing and costs, pointing the way > towards todays plastic packages. Cool. This knowledge is worth a whole lot more to me than $565. :) Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org From rhblakeman at kih.net Mon Nov 19 23:01:27 2001 From: rhblakeman at kih.net (Russ Blakeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:11:22 2005 Subject: Slightly OT: Atari 2600s game collecting on "Antiques Road Show" on PBS TV In-Reply-To: <00b801c17168$6d936c00$0200a8c0@gamerclaude> Message-ID: They may not know but I'm sure it's soon to be a subject as the Atari is close to the advent of the home peecee and all they have to do is get a few people bringing the stuff in. Most of you already know that the machines that many of you have aren't just classics over 10 yrs old but bonafide antiques per the 20 yr rule too. -> -----Original Message----- -> From: owner-classiccmp@classiccmp.org -> [mailto:owner-classiccmp@classiccmp.org]On Behalf Of Claude.W -> Sent: Monday, November 19, 2001 8:10 PM -> To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org -> Subject: Slightly OT: Atari 2600s game collecting on "Antiques Road -> Show" on PBS TV -> -> -> Its not computer collecting on TV but very close... -> -> I tune in to PBS antiques road show (that TV show that goes around US and -> Canada towns and people bring their antiques to get them -> evaluated and info -> on them...) tonight and there was a short (2 mins?) segment on Atari 2600 -> cart collecting and they showed some examples of sought after carts...and -> some "values"...explaining this was very "hot collectibles" -> -> Do they know about computer collecting also? -> -> Claude -> http://www.members.tripod.com/computer_collector -> -> -> From Innfogra at aol.com Mon Nov 19 23:29:20 2001 From: Innfogra at aol.com (Innfogra@aol.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:11:22 2005 Subject: Qbus & Unibus cards avalable Message-ID: <147.4dfca13.292b4430@aol.com> I have the following Qbus & Unibus card that I want to offer to the list first before offering them on ebay. Please contact me off list at: whoagiii@aol.com Dilog MQ696 - This is a current 22 bit Disk Controller Qbus card. It is a 20 MHz ESDI controller for two drives. It also supports two SA450 floppy drives. It supports RX33/50s and MSCP. It is a nice looking design. M5903 Drive Transceiver M7607AP/AH MS630A 1 Meg MicroVAX II Memory - Have 2 M7946 RXV11 LSI11 RX01 Controller M7940 Serial Line Unit M7941 DRV11 16 bit Parallel Line Unit M8029 RXV21 LSI11 RX02 Controller M8186 Rev 202 D0 11/23 CPU M8958 TM78 Translator Unibus - Tape? M9202 Unibus Connector Inverted have 2 M9400 YE LSI11 Ref Boot Cable Conn Netcom NDLV-11 700 0055 MDB DRV11C Program I/O module Plessey 705113-100B Looks like a three serial port card Sandwich board set which occupies 2 sets of slots Andromeda Systems MSI11-2 2 serial port card handwritten serial numbers Have 2 Andromeda Systems MSI11 4 serial port card Rubber stamp SN 304 Codar Tech Has three batteries so I think it has clock functions. There is a 34 pin connector and a 10 pin jumper block? Digital Pathways TCU - 50 Real Time Clock card settable to normal or leap year Address-76077X Don't know its 2000 compatibility. Feel free to ask questions, preferably off list. I have pictures if needed. Paxton Astoria, OR From jss at subatomix.com Tue Nov 20 00:14:22 2001 From: jss at subatomix.com (Jeffrey S. Sharp) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:11:22 2005 Subject: RA60 drives anywhere? And stuff... In-Reply-To: <3BF9B9B2.2020603@aurora.regenstrief.org> Message-ID: <20011120001351.J22748-100000@lepton.subatomix.com> On Mon, 19 Nov 2001, Gunther Schadow wrote: > Do you know if that huge tracktor paper is still available for sale > somewhere? Yes, at your local office supply. -- Jeffrey S. Sharp jss@subatomix.com From tothwolf at concentric.net Tue Nov 20 00:39:50 2001 From: tothwolf at concentric.net (Tothwolf) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:11:22 2005 Subject: 1771 floppy controller questions In-Reply-To: <003a01c17147$28d5c700$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> Message-ID: On Mon, 19 Nov 2001, Richard Erlacher wrote: > From: "Tothwolf" > > > I have a complete TRS-80 Model I that has a dead Western Digital FD1771-01 > > chip in its expansion interface. Does anyone know if a National 1771-B01 > > is a suitable replacement? What would be a fair/reasonable price for a new > > 1771 these days? > > You can get one for cheap if you go down to the thrift store and buy an old > TRS-80. That will cost less than a new WD1771, I'd bet. That conflicts with my ideals and goals on collecting/repairing these machines. The expansion interface for the model I also seems to be somewhat hard to find, as I haven't seen one in a thrift store in quite some time. The model 3 and 4 have a different 1771, which I seem to remember is not an exact replacement. This particular TRS-80 was given to me by its original owner some years back before he passed away. We had made plans for me to to pick up even more old stuff to go with it, but he died before that happened. -Toth From jss at subatomix.com Tue Nov 20 00:40:27 2001 From: jss at subatomix.com (Jeffrey S. Sharp) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:11:22 2005 Subject: H7140 PDP 11/24 Power Supply Advice In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20011120002556.B22748-100000@lepton.subatomix.com> On Sat, 17 Nov 2001, Tony Duell wrote: > Some places have special-purpose equipment for some experiments which > is not what it claims to be. It's got all sorts of hidden extras to > make the experiments come out right. Of course if you try to apply the > knowledge gained from that experiment to some other problem you start > running into difficulties. That's how it probably starts out here, but I think it gets better with time. Most of my upper-level CS classes have been in the same building in which the ECE classes are held. Judging from the menagerie of interesting contraptions that I've seen there over the years, the ECE people do get to do stuff that's not 'set up to succeed'. Two people I know in the ECE program are currently working on some (from-scratch) robotics project. Another interesting thing: I think I might qualify for a new intensive *one-year* CS master's degree program that my university is offering. I just might go for that too. -- Jeffrey S. Sharp jss@subatomix.com From jss at subatomix.com Tue Nov 20 00:41:09 2001 From: jss at subatomix.com (Jeffrey S. Sharp) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:11:22 2005 Subject: What is a RL02K-DC? In-Reply-To: <3BF93C81.546C8923@tc.umn.edu> Message-ID: <20011120004040.G22748-100000@lepton.subatomix.com> On Mon, 19 Nov 2001, David Kuroki wrote: > I was just curious to know if they are worth anything today? Not much. > Are they still being used?? Yes, but not by many. -- Jeffrey S. Sharp jss@subatomix.com From tothwolf at concentric.net Tue Nov 20 00:51:09 2001 From: tothwolf at concentric.net (Tothwolf) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:11:22 2005 Subject: 1771 floppy controller questions In-Reply-To: <001701c17172$84b88460$9865fea9@downstairs> Message-ID: On Mon, 19 Nov 2001, Michael Holley wrote: > From: "Tothwolf" > > > I have a complete TRS-80 Model I that has a dead Western Digital FD1771-01 > > chip in its expansion interface. Does anyone know if a National 1771-B01 > > is a suitable replacement? What would be a fair/reasonable price for a new > > 1771 these days? > > B. G. Micro, www.bgmicro.com, has FD1771s for $4.95. Thanks for the info. I should be able to get my local vendor to match that price since B.G. Micro is a fairly well known vendor. -Toth From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Mon Nov 19 18:48:14 2001 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (Ben Franchuk) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:11:22 2005 Subject: Intel C8080A chip brings $565 on EBAY References: <20011119025154.HEKA10804.tomts19-srv.bellnexxia.net@duron> <3BF7B165.8D0DB730@jetnet.ab.ca> <3BF9C74E.DE6A9142@tiac.net> Message-ID: <3BF9A84E.550BBEF9@jetnet.ab.ca> Bob Shannon wrote: > > Because the 'new' Imsai is not an S-100 machine? I suspect it is 100% S-100 bus. Heath Kit? or Zenith? has a nice 8086 system on a S-100 bus back when people first started cloning dos. Ben Franchuk. -- Live "Pre-historic Cpu's" -- and you thought they were extinct. www.jetnet.ab.ca/users/bfranchuk/index.html From jss at subatomix.com Tue Nov 20 01:01:31 2001 From: jss at subatomix.com (Jeffrey S. Sharp) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:11:22 2005 Subject: Interesting find Message-ID: <20011120005251.F22748-100000@lepton.subatomix.com> I'm not much of a calculator collector, but the following seems to be much more than a mere calculator. I've located an HP 9825 for $5 at a local surplus store. I think I'll go purchase it tomorrow. -- Jeffrey S. Sharp jss@subatomix.com From red at bears.org Tue Nov 20 01:04:00 2001 From: red at bears.org (r. 'bear' stricklin) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:11:22 2005 Subject: sought: SunPC 3.1b software Message-ID: I just found a SunPC Accelerator DX in a box of junk at a recycler's. Does anybody have a copy of SunPC 3.1b so I can try to use this on my Solaris 1.1.2 box? Supposedly it was distributed on CD; a disc image or a copy of its contents would be more than sufficient. TIA ok r. From jss at subatomix.com Tue Nov 20 01:44:27 2001 From: jss at subatomix.com (Jeffrey S. Sharp) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:11:22 2005 Subject: sought: SunPC 3.1b software In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20011120014406.I22901-100000@lepton.subatomix.com> On Tue, 20 Nov 2001, r. 'bear' stricklin wrote: > I just found a SunPC Accelerator DX in a box of junk at a recycler's. Does > anybody have a copy of SunPC 3.1b so I can try to use this on my Solaris > 1.1.2 box? Supposedly it was distributed on CD; a disc image or a copy of > its contents would be more than sufficient. I may, but I need sleep now. More later. -- Jeffrey S. Sharp jss@subatomix.com From pete at dunnington.u-net.com Tue Nov 20 02:09:40 2001 From: pete at dunnington.u-net.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:11:22 2005 Subject: PDP-8 case In-Reply-To: "Richard Erlacher" "Re: PDP-8 case" (Nov 19, 18:35) References: <200111200109.OAA14026@s454.cosc.canterbury.ac.nz> <000701c17163$af3e9620$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> Message-ID: <10111200809.ZM15845@mindy.dunnington.u-net.com> On Nov 19, 18:35, Richard Erlacher wrote: > From: "Greg Ewing" > > I think so-called "conductive" foam actually has quite > > a high resistance. If that's so, it would be unlikely > > to upset any ordinary logic circuit. > ISTR something about megohms per linear inch... > I doubt that will bother PDP-8 circuits much. Resistivity is normally measured "per square" (if it's linear, how wide should the strip be?) And this stuff is about 25 megohms per square, according to my measurements. So, no, I don't see how it could bother 7400 TTL. -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager University of York From pete at dunnington.u-net.com Tue Nov 20 02:05:09 2001 From: pete at dunnington.u-net.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:11:22 2005 Subject: PDP-8 case In-Reply-To: ard@p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) "Re: PDP-8 case" (Nov 20, 0:53) References: Message-ID: <10111200805.ZM15836@mindy.dunnington.u-net.com> On Nov 20, 0:53, Tony Duell wrote: > > I've been cleaning up my recently-acquired PDP-8/E, and I've had to remove > > the plastic foam from the inside of the lid, which was fairly horrible. > > Yes, that's a very common problem... Makes a right mess on a the backplane... This hadn't reached the completely crumbly stage, but it did smell of cat :-( > I have never seen conductive foam used on PDP8/e machines. There's > nothing particularly static-sensitive in there anyway (the CPU is all > fairly large-junction bipolar chips (TTL, etc). Mine just had the normal > brown foam throughout. > > Since you can put options with top connectors anywhere in the backplane, > there would seem to be little point in having special foam over the front > slots only. > > But the leakage on conducive foam is not that high, and I doubt that > using it would cause many problems (TTL inputs are fairly low impedance). > It might have an effect if used over core memory units, but actually I > doubt it. I didn't really think it would make much difference, but I can clearly see the impression made by the connectors for the core stack, which is reputedly not working. The machine had modern semiconductor memory in it when I got it -- the 1995 board I mentioned in another post -- and I've not tried the core for myself yet. -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager University of York From pete at dunnington.u-net.com Tue Nov 20 02:19:07 2001 From: pete at dunnington.u-net.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:11:22 2005 Subject: PDP-8 case In-Reply-To: "ajp166" "Re: PDP-8 case" (Nov 19, 21:04) References: <009d01c17169$39ca5270$71ee9a8d@ajp166> Message-ID: <10111200819.ZM15851@mindy.dunnington.u-net.com> On Nov 19, 21:04, ajp166 wrote: > I don't remember that foam as being conductive. Most conductive foams > tend to shred, those bits are not kind to the electronics. Agreed :-) The brown stuff isn't much nicer after 15-30 years. I suspect someone before me had replaced foam that lost its resilience, and thought conductive foam would be better in some way. > From: Pete Turnbull > >I've been cleaning up my recently-acquired PDP-8/E, and I've had to remove > >the plastic foam from the inside of the lid, which was fairly horrible. > > I'm not sure what best to replace it with Thanmks to everyone who replied. I'll just use ordinary high-density foam. It's much cheaper than a couple of square feet of good quality conductive foam, which would be a bit thin anyway. -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager University of York From pete at dunnington.u-net.com Tue Nov 20 02:34:49 2001 From: pete at dunnington.u-net.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:11:22 2005 Subject: Dead Intel MDS controller board In-Reply-To: Dave Mabry "Re: Dead Intel MDS controller board" (Nov 19, 20:52) References: <3BF9B769.7A7B0C21@mich.com> Message-ID: <10111200834.ZM15866@mindy.dunnington.u-net.com> On Nov 19, 20:52, Dave Mabry wrote: > I have that manual (98-422A) and that is the correct one for the > SBC-202. I think Intel just gave the 202 name to that board set when it > was bought for integration into an application. > > I am anxious to try to troubleshoot this, but I'm not sure how to go > about it. [...] > FWIW, this seems to be the exact failure mode I've seen in every one > I've had fail. > Note to list: Should we take this private or do you all want to see it? I'd say "let's see it". You might get more than onme opinion, and in any case if the fault is relatively common, there's a good chance someone else can make use of the information later. -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager University of York From pete at dunnington.u-net.com Tue Nov 20 02:31:18 2001 From: pete at dunnington.u-net.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:11:22 2005 Subject: PDP-8 backplane -- was Re: PDP-8 case In-Reply-To: ard@p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) "Re: PDP-8 case" (Nov 20, 0:53) References: Message-ID: <10111200831.ZM15862@mindy.dunnington.u-net.com> On Nov 20, 0:53, Tony Duell wrote: > Since you can put options with top connectors anywhere in the backplane, > there would seem to be little point in having special foam over the front > slots only. That reminds me... supplementary question: The machine had gaps between some of the cards. It's over 20 years since I used a PDP-8 for real, and in those days I wasn't usually allowed at the innards. The gaps don't matter, do they? There's no grant chain like in a Unibus, AFAIR. The -8/E is an Omnibus machine, of course. -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager University of York From edick at idcomm.com Tue Nov 20 02:41:17 2001 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:11:22 2005 Subject: 1771 floppy controller questions References: Message-ID: <002b01c1719f$1f0d7940$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> The model 3 has a 1793, which is very similar, but not identical. The 1771 has an inverting data bus, and the MFM-capable version with an inverting bus is the 1791. I do believe I saw a message that indicated that BG Micro has the WD1771 for $4.95. I doubt there's a version that wouldn't work in the Model 1. You're right, in that the model 1 expansion box is not a really common item. I've not seen one in quite a while. They've probably gone to the great beyond by now. The 1771 was quite popular, and had several second-sources, so perhaps the NS part is worth a try. In the Model 1's single-density application, almost any 1771 should work fine, though working fine doesn't really mean working reliably. What I'd suggest is that you synchronize the data from the drive with the 1771 by interposing a pair of 74HCT74's between the FD data in (after the schmidt trigger) and the 1771, clocked with the fastest harmonic of the FD clock that you can find on board. That forms a dual-rank register and synchronizes the data in a way that has a good chance of improving the system performance. You might confer with Tony Duell, as he's apparently persuaded the M1 FDC to work fairly well. An upgraded data separator was quite a popular enhancement. Dick ----- Original Message ----- From: "Tothwolf" To: Sent: Monday, November 19, 2001 11:39 PM Subject: Re: 1771 floppy controller questions > On Mon, 19 Nov 2001, Richard Erlacher wrote: > > From: "Tothwolf" > > > > > I have a complete TRS-80 Model I that has a dead Western Digital FD1771-01 > > > chip in its expansion interface. Does anyone know if a National 1771-B01 > > > is a suitable replacement? What would be a fair/reasonable price for a new > > > 1771 these days? > > > > You can get one for cheap if you go down to the thrift store and buy an old > > TRS-80. That will cost less than a new WD1771, I'd bet. > > That conflicts with my ideals and goals on collecting/repairing these > machines. The expansion interface for the model I also seems to be > somewhat hard to find, as I haven't seen one in a thrift store in quite > some time. The model 3 and 4 have a different 1771, which I seem to > remember is not an exact replacement. > > This particular TRS-80 was given to me by its original owner some years > back before he passed away. We had made plans for me to to pick up even > more old stuff to go with it, but he died before that happened. > > -Toth > > From edick at idcomm.com Tue Nov 20 02:42:12 2001 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:11:22 2005 Subject: 1771 floppy controller questions References: Message-ID: <003101c1719f$4035f020$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> What is it that makes you believe that the 1771 s the problem? Dick ----- Original Message ----- From: "Tothwolf" To: Sent: Monday, November 19, 2001 11:51 PM Subject: Re: 1771 floppy controller questions > On Mon, 19 Nov 2001, Michael Holley wrote: > > From: "Tothwolf" > > > > > I have a complete TRS-80 Model I that has a dead Western Digital FD1771-01 > > > chip in its expansion interface. Does anyone know if a National 1771-B01 > > > is a suitable replacement? What would be a fair/reasonable price for a new > > > 1771 these days? > > > > B. G. Micro, www.bgmicro.com, has FD1771s for $4.95. > > Thanks for the info. I should be able to get my local vendor to match that > price since B.G. Micro is a fairly well known vendor. > > -Toth > > From vze2mnvr at verizon.net Tue Nov 20 03:21:35 2001 From: vze2mnvr at verizon.net (Ian Koller) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:11:23 2005 Subject: HP 3000 No More (legacy) References: <00af01c16fbf$8e5b4f70$23ec9a8d@ajp166> Message-ID: <3BFA209F.8D01A193@verizon.net> ajp166 wrote: > For those CNC tools with PDP-8 or PDP11s running them What mfg. model CNC machines run on PDP's? ajp166 wrote: > > From: Dave McGuire > > >On November 17, Stan Sieler wrote: > >> PA-RISC is dead/dying ... HP has said so. IA-64 killed it. > > > > [knee-jerk reaction to a pet peeve follows] > > > > Well, as long as "dead" can be defined as "salespeople don't want to > >sell you a new one". For me, it can't. I can pick up the phone and > >buy PDP8 equipment from a commercial vendor. How long ago was THAT > >architecture discontinued? > > > > For me, something is "dead" (or "obsolete" or whatever you want to > >call it) when it can no longer do its job adequately and > > Dead to me is broken. Obsolete is when it cant forfill the intesded task > or when it has reached a level of repair difficulty where replacement is > an option. For those CNC tools with PDP-8 or PDP11s running them > that number is still over $50,000 to upgrade and 100s of thousands of > dollars to replace. In the face of that the PDP-8 that still makes good > flanges is cheap at $2000 for a working cold spare. > > For example I was given three working 386(mono) and 486(color) laptops > as too weak to be useful. Fully working machines with Xircom network > adaptors and all! > > Allison From tothwolf at concentric.net Tue Nov 20 03:25:55 2001 From: tothwolf at concentric.net (Tothwolf) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:11:23 2005 Subject: 1771 floppy controller questions In-Reply-To: <003101c1719f$4035f020$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> Message-ID: On Tue, 20 Nov 2001, Richard Erlacher wrote: > From: "Tothwolf" > > On Mon, 19 Nov 2001, Michael Holley wrote: > > > From: "Tothwolf" > > > > > > > I have a complete TRS-80 Model I that has a dead Western Digital FD1771-01 > > > > chip in its expansion interface. Does anyone know if a National 1771-B01 > > > > is a suitable replacement? What would be a fair/reasonable price for a new > > > > 1771 these days? > > > > > > B. G. Micro, www.bgmicro.com, has FD1771s for $4.95. > > > > Thanks for the info. I should be able to get my local vendor to match that > > price since B.G. Micro is a fairly well known vendor. > > What is it that makes you believe that the 1771 s the problem? Well, I accidentally plugged the chip in backward when troubleshooting the floppy interface right after I got it. It turned out that the floppy ribbon was bad, just due to age I guess. I don't think the chip let out its magic smoke, but it certainly does not work now ;) -Toth From kevin at xpuppy.freeserve.co.uk Tue Nov 20 03:25:16 2001 From: kevin at xpuppy.freeserve.co.uk (Kevin Murrell) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:11:23 2005 Subject: PDP-8 backplane -- was Re: PDP-8 case In-Reply-To: <10111200831.ZM15862@mindy.dunnington.u-net.com> Message-ID: Quite right, the gaps do not matter. The Omnibus is more of a typical computer bus than the Unibus which is more of an i/o bus. Kevin -----Original Message----- From: owner-classiccmp@classiccmp.org [mailto:owner-classiccmp@classiccmp.org]On Behalf Of Pete Turnbull Sent: 20 November 2001 08:31 To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org Subject: PDP-8 backplane -- was Re: PDP-8 case On Nov 20, 0:53, Tony Duell wrote: > Since you can put options with top connectors anywhere in the backplane, > there would seem to be little point in having special foam over the front > slots only. That reminds me... supplementary question: The machine had gaps between some of the cards. It's over 20 years since I used a PDP-8 for real, and in those days I wasn't usually allowed at the innards. The gaps don't matter, do they? There's no grant chain like in a Unibus, AFAIR. The -8/E is an Omnibus machine, of course. -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager University of York From vze2mnvr at verizon.net Tue Nov 20 03:38:00 2001 From: vze2mnvr at verizon.net (Ian Koller) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:11:23 2005 Subject: Intel C8080A chip brings $565 on EBAY References: <001101c1709d$7564c800$0100a8c0@sys1> Message-ID: <3BFA2478.96679AB8@verizon.net> John, You're all right. I respect your interest and your approach. If I ever run across a chip you're looking for, it would be my pleasure to see it go to you. Ian From tothwolf at concentric.net Tue Nov 20 03:46:58 2001 From: tothwolf at concentric.net (Tothwolf) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:11:23 2005 Subject: 1771 floppy controller questions In-Reply-To: <002b01c1719f$1f0d7940$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> Message-ID: On Tue, 20 Nov 2001, Richard Erlacher wrote: > From: "Tothwolf" > > On Mon, 19 Nov 2001, Richard Erlacher wrote: > > > > > You can get one for cheap if you go down to the thrift store and buy an old > > > TRS-80. That will cost less than a new WD1771, I'd bet. > > > > That conflicts with my ideals and goals on collecting/repairing these > > machines. The expansion interface for the model I also seems to be > > somewhat hard to find, as I haven't seen one in a thrift store in quite > > some time. The model 3 and 4 have a different 1771, which I seem to > > remember is not an exact replacement. > > The model 3 has a 1793, which is very similar, but not identical. > The 1771 has an inverting data bus, and the MFM-capable version with > an inverting bus is the 1791. I do believe I saw a message that > indicated that BG Micro has the WD1771 for $4.95. I doubt there's a > version that wouldn't work in the Model 1. I figured the model 3 used the same controller as the model 1, but it makes sense that they changed that part of the design. I own both a model 3 and 4, neither of which currently work. Any ideas on where a service manual can be found for either of these? I also have a model 2 that worked the last time I pulled it out, tho I'd like to find a manual for it too, since I imagine I will have to service it at some point in the future. > You're right, in that the model 1 expansion box is not a really common > item. I've not seen one in quite a while. They've probably gone to > the great beyond by now. Kinda sad too, I used to see this kind of gear in the resale shops all the time. Over the last 4-5 years, very little of it seems to be showing up in the places I used to see it in. > The 1771 was quite popular, and had several second-sources, so perhaps > the NS part is worth a try. In the Model 1's single-density > application, almost any 1771 should work fine, though working fine > doesn't really mean working reliably. I've heard a few stories about reliability problems with the expansion interface's floppy controller. I sure hope not all of them were true ;P > What I'd suggest is that you synchronize the data from the drive with > the 1771 by interposing a pair of 74HCT74's between the FD data in > (after the schmidt trigger) and the 1771, clocked with the fastest > harmonic of the FD clock that you can find on board. That forms a > dual-rank register and synchronizes the data in a way that has a good > chance of improving the system performance. You might confer with Tony > Duell, as he's apparently persuaded the M1 FDC to work fairly well. > An upgraded data separator was quite a popular enhancement. The original owner of this model I did add an external data separator board between the expansion interface board and the 1771. Would that board have provided a similar circuit? -Toth From Joanne.Renardson at grangewintringham.com Tue Nov 20 03:46:53 2001 From: Joanne.Renardson at grangewintringham.com (Joanne Renardson) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:11:23 2005 Subject: OT: paging MAC expert(s) --- What's a Performa? Message-ID: This came to me in error. Regards, Jo. -----Original Message----- From: Richard Erlacher [mailto:edick@idcomm.com] Sent: 20 November 2001 01:08 To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org Subject: Re: OT: paging MAC expert(s) --- What's a Performa? If you're meaning operating on the tape contents, you're talking about weeks to months. The bits of a file are scattered around the disk, since it's random access, albeit in "clusters" or whatever you choose to call them, and in blocks, as the data buffer stores them, but unless you KNOW where the directory is in the bitwise image of the disk, and unless you know where all the pieces of the drive are to be found in the tape image, I'd submit it would be a mite tedious. The problem, of course, with image backup, is that the bits have to be extracted from the drive at the raw data level, i.e. with controller commands you normally don't deal with, and they can't be faithfully restored to a drive that's not physically identical to the one you started with, i.e. same number of heads, cylinders, sectors, etc, PHYSICALLY, else things fall apart, since we don't know how the drive firmware deals with translating from the block-level commands the OS may choose to send it, though it doesn't have to, to the buffers-full of data that the drive coughs up. Remember, when you restart the system, it has no OS other than what you can load from a floppy. IF that's the same, which certainly isn't the case under WIndows, as what you used to do the backup, then you're able, potentially, to deal with the data to be transferred to the newly cleaned drive in the same way that this particular OS deals with it. Of course, the OS doesn't know what you're doing, and doesn't know how to read the data on the disk, except as raw data, dealt with in buffer-fulls, and than only using the code you've written. Dick ----- Original Message ----- From: "Christopher Smith" To: Sent: Monday, November 19, 2001 4:00 PM Subject: RE: OT: paging MAC expert(s) --- What's a Performa? > > -----Original Message----- > > From: Richard Erlacher [mailto:edick@idcomm.com] > > > If your recorded "backup" is a bit-for-bit image of the disk contents, > > transferred to and from tape, there's no interpretation of > > the contents into > > files that can take place, is there? > > That's an interesting way to phrase this particular question, since the > contents are already in the form of "files" -- that is, if you ask the set > of drivers that got them to the disk in the first place. :) > > I believe it's possible (though it would be slow) to interpret a bit-for-bit > image directly on a tape and extract any given file, along with attributes, > etc. In fact, any operation that would be possible on a disk, in this case, > could be handled on a tape. The clincher is that it would involve a lot of > seek/rewind/seek/etc/etc.. > > The underlying O/S need not even know the difference between the disk and > tape, except to know that the tape is removable (...that's not absolutely > required), and perhaps that it's incredibly slow. > > The worst that would be required is a device abstraction layer or the like. > You could write one yourself which would make the tape device "look" like a > disk device, for systems which don't have such a thing, and that would be > enough. > > How would you like to be able to mount your backup tape, and use a > file-manager on it? ;) > > > The Microsoft Backup that came with DOS, (a) never really was > > a backup, but, > > rather, was just a copy, and (b) never worked together with > > its "restore" > > function. Under DOS, copies were adequate, since the context > > didn't matter. > > If you mean that it didn't store attributes, or that sort of thing, you may > be right (never paid attention.) On the other hand, you're also right to > say that it wouldn't particularly matter under MS-DOS. > > Regards, > > Chris > > > Christopher Smith, Perl Developer > Amdocs - Champaign, IL > > /usr/bin/perl -e ' > print((~"\x95\xc4\xe3"^"Just Another Perl Hacker.")."\x08!\n"); > ' > > > From vze2mnvr at verizon.net Tue Nov 20 03:55:20 2001 From: vze2mnvr at verizon.net (Ian Koller) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:11:23 2005 Subject: Intel C8080A chip brings $565 on EBAY References: <003401c170ff$841dc740$6b7b7b7b@ajp> Message-ID: <3BFA2888.3A114C25@verizon.net> Allison, You collect Single Board Computers? Ian Allison wrote: > > From: John Galt > > >There's a rather small community of chip collectors. > > > >However, there are a few collectors who have been > >collecting for over 10 years now who have put togather > >pretty vast collections of literally thousands of chips. > > My only concern is they may be collecting junk, IE: chips that > look good, may be rare but are DEAD/useless electronically. > > >It would be the same as if suddenly someone found > >two Intelec bit slice 3002 computers dated 1975 in a closet or something. > >Sure, there might could be more, but if they were common, you guys would > >have already seen one. > > These were quite common and the basic chipset on an experimentors board > was around $495 in 1977. Most were used then relagated to the engineering > junk box. So I'd presume when you say rare, your referring to actively > traded > survivors as SBC colltors like me may already have one (not yet!). > > >As far as the color, chip collectors refer to that color > >chip as "purple". If you look at it next to a normal > >"gray" CerDIP, you can see the difference. Besides, > >it would not have mattered had it been black. The fact > >is, it's not the white/gold color of a normal Intel > >C8080A. The printing on the chip is also somewhat different. My guess is > >it's a late run C8080A that was > > It's very late run ceramic. Ceramic for chip substrates only comes from a > few > vendors one being a beer maker in the rockies a few in the far east and > Europe. > It was part of the reason why ceramic parts were more expensive and also > a near must if the part was required to pass tests for hermetic sealing > (military, > space or other high stress apps). > > Ceramic aging/dating: > > Starting with the 1960s ceramic was white. > > early White > > examples were > early military Flatpacks(RTL/DTL/TTL) > 1101, 1103 ram > 1702 eprom > > first brown parts I'd seen were 2708s > > brown (light) > later dark brown > Gray > Gray with brownish cast > Gray with purplish cast > > Those were the most common. Eproms were generaltionally in the common > ceramic of the time. > > Allison From vze2mnvr at verizon.net Tue Nov 20 03:58:14 2001 From: vze2mnvr at verizon.net (Ian Koller) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:11:23 2005 Subject: Intel C8080A chip brings $565 on EBAY References: <5.0.0.25.0.20011119083154.0240e1a8@pc> Message-ID: <3BFA2936.F0D67EC7@verizon.net> > I can't believe that any nerd on this mailing list would > denigrate a chip collector. Sorta "like the pot calling the kettle black" as Grandma would say. John Foust wrote: > > At 09:17 PM 11/18/2001 -0500, you wrote: > >Better yet, give me all those old "worthless" purple C8080A's you have > >laying around. I'll give you > >$1 ea. for them so you won't feel like you're taking advantage of an > >"idiot". > > No, these complainers about the free market's prices > are just sad that their warehouse is full of junk that > doesn't fetch high prices. > > I can't believe that any nerd on this mailing list would > denigrate a chip collector. It's like the original Swiftian > little-endian versus big-endian argument. But then again, > maybe I think this way only because if I'm going to junk > a piece of unusable computer equipment, or if I discover > an unrecoverable wreck, I'll always yank the interesting chips. > > On the other hand, wearing a name tag that says "John Galt" > in a room full of techies is an unpardonably cheesy offense. > > - John From vze2mnvr at verizon.net Tue Nov 20 04:29:16 2001 From: vze2mnvr at verizon.net (Ian Koller) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:11:23 2005 Subject: OT: paging MAC expert(s) --- What's a Performa? References: Message-ID: <3BFA307C.7E86EA7A@verizon.net> gwynp@artware.qc.ca wrote: > What's the use of a Mac of that vintage (ie, old and slow but not > classic)? I have a Centris 660av that I use for testing web pages on > older macintosh versions of Netscape and MSIE. Of course, finding a 68k > version of MSIE is something of a challenge. Macs saw a lot of lab use. There were some special interfaces and software ( LabVIEW ) for them. They can be used to control experiments and equipment. So if you have NuBus interface cards, an old mac is just what is needed. gwynp@artware.qc.ca wrote: > > On 17-Nov-2001 Richard Erlacher wrote: > > I've downloaded TattleTech, but where, now, do I find the Stuffit > > Expander? > > You're best bet is to buy a Mac Addict or other magazine that has a CD-ROM > (you do have a CD drive?). Older Macs don't "boot-strap" very well. Yes, > you can get a SEA (self-extracting archive) of Stuffit, but it won't do > you much good. Mac OS has 2 forks per file. One for data, the other > for code. When you download a file or when you copy a file from a PC > formated disk everything goes into the data fork. Doing something > equivalent to "chmod +x file.sea" is impossible on Mac OS without an > external program, like say Stuffit. *sigh* If you are lucky, you'll have > a recent version of Mac OS which includes Stuffit. > > I find this to be one of the most incredible "features" of Mac OS. Apart > from that, as long as you have a real computer nearby, using a Mac isn't > that bad. > > What's the use of a Mac of that vintage (ie, old and slow but not > classic)? I have a Centris 660av that I use for testing web pages on > older macintosh versions of Netscape and MSIE. Of course, finding a 68k > version of MSIE is something of a challenge. > > -Philip From simul8 at simul8.demon.co.uk Tue Nov 20 04:37:30 2001 From: simul8 at simul8.demon.co.uk (James Lothian) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:11:23 2005 Subject: RA60 drives anywhere? And stuff... References: <000001c16e91$6f2cba00$7901100a@mdl> <3BF9B9B2.2020603@aurora.regenstrief.org> Message-ID: <3BFA326A.F6E3FD67@simul8.demon.co.uk> Gunther Schadow wrote: > > Hi, > > I'm wondering if I should get an RA60 drive some time. The idea > of removeable hard drives is kind of cool, but I don't want to > put up yet another machine, so this one might just fit due to its > easy rack-mountable "drawer" style. What is it like, is it as > heavy as the RA8x? > A good bit heavier, in fact -- about 160lbs, I seem to remember. It's also deeper front-to-back, and needs a modified rack. James From vze2mnvr at verizon.net Tue Nov 20 04:44:53 2001 From: vze2mnvr at verizon.net (Ian Koller) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:11:23 2005 Subject: OT: paging MAC expert(s) --- What's a Performa? References: <200111181919.NAA82668@opal.tseinc.com> Message-ID: <3BFA3425.3CE06CD5@verizon.net> What's the fastest NuBus modem was ever made? Chris wrote: > > >They both have Claris Works loaded, but since > >there's no CD and no doc, I have to say it's got to be flushed. > > NO NO NO NO... Claris Works shipped with EVERY performa... but since it > was an Apple product, it was tied into that damn Backup program, and no > install disks were supplied. (There should be a simple manual, but the > previous owners may have lost it). Don't flush it, it is legal (and > again, I can supply you with a replacement copy if need be, it came with > Claris Works version 2.1) > > >One has a Stylewriter II and the other has a Color > >Stylewriter 2400, not that I know what the differences are. > > The 2400 is the better of the two. Check Apple's web site for specs. The > goofy catch with the 2400 is, it has no direct printer driver, you need > to use the driver for the 2500 (go figure) > > > They have > >essentially useless (2400 Baud) GV Teleport Bronze modems, which I guess I'll > >upgrade in order to make the system useful for internet browsing > > If you are dumping the GV Bronze modems, I would be interested in > aquiring them from you. They are FANTASTIC fax modems, so I use them on > old Mac SE's as fax stations. > > >I'm still in the throes of figuring out how, exactly to equip these things > >with > >"legal" software > > Accordng to Apple, the 630CD comes with a Restore CD. Run that, and you > will get all the shipped "legal" software the machine came with. > > The 630CD shipped with the following software: > > Performa 630CD - M3424LL/A Includes ClarisWorks 2.1, American > > Heritage Dictionary 3rd Edition, > Quicken > 4, MacLink Translators, Mac Gallery > Clip > Art, Click Art Performa Collection, > KidWorks 2, Thinkin' Things, The > Writing > Center, Spectre Challenger, Spin > Doctor > Lite, TelePort Fax Send, At Ease > 2.0, PC > Exchange, and eWorld. > > It also orginally shipped with System 7.1, but 7.5.5 is now free off > Apple's web site, so you can upgrade to it without legal fear. > > If you don't have the restore CD, let me know, I can look and see if I > have one. > > -chris > > From vze2mnvr at verizon.net Tue Nov 20 04:50:10 2001 From: vze2mnvr at verizon.net (Ian Koller) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:11:23 2005 Subject: OT: paging MAC expert(s) --- What's a Performa? References: <3B55D7F383B0D31197D9009027541CBF1170DE98@cmiexch1.cmi.itds.com> <000f01c17126$bed4d640$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> Message-ID: <3BFA3562.9C18C21E@verizon.net> > I don't know what a guy's to do. I guess image-copying the disk > to tape, empty space and all, is the only solution. The best device to back up a hard drive to is ... another hard drive. Fastest speed transfers. And as inexpensive as hard drives are these days, why not? In DOS, and even Win9x ... xcopy Richard Erlacher wrote: > > I'm concerned mainly about Win9x. There were numerous backup packages that > worked VERY well under [DOS6.22/Win3.11]. Since the release of Win9x, I've > bought several backup packages, and a couple of releases of each, yet not seen > one that even barely worked on any sort of consistent basis. The early backup > program from ADAPTEC, part of their EasySCSI 4.xx package, didn't even support > SCSI devices, and freely admitted it. Microsoft's backup utility for Windows95 > didn't support SCSI devices either. Seagate Backup Exec supported SCSI-1 and > SCSI-2 devices, though it didn't work terribly well because it opened files that > subsequently required human intervention in order to complete the backup. > Moreover, if permission was given to back up those files, it would fall down > during verify, since it, itself, had modified those files. Novaback for > Windows95 failed on 148 of the 151 units one of my clients has, failing in all > those cases, to complete the backup. I've never managed to get Novaback to > finish a restore either. Cheyenne backup was a miserable flop, failing to read > its own writing from time to time. I could go on ... > > There's something about the OS that interferes with a backup. The Microsoft > Backup for Win98 seems to work ...sorta... but it only works ...sorta... and > falls down many times, misinterpreting a drive that the OS recognizes correctly > to be a 2GB partition to be 300+ Terabytes. Naturally it falls down later > because of that problem. > > An OS without a real backup utility is of little use because you have to have > backup ... not just copies of things, but a real backup, context and all, that > enables you to get back to where you were. DOS didn't have that, UNIX doesn't > have it (though it does have TAR, which makes copies to tape), OS/2 doesn't have > it, LINUX doesn't have it ... I don't know what a guy's to do. I guess > image-copying the disk to tape, empty space and all, is the only solution. Of > course that means the files are replaceable only on an all or nothing basis. > ^%$#@! ... what a bunch of crap! > > Dick > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Christopher Smith" > To: > Sent: Monday, November 19, 2001 10:22 AM > Subject: RE: OT: paging MAC expert(s) --- What's a Performa? > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > From: Richard Erlacher [mailto:edick@idcomm.com] > > > > > the Intel CPU as well as the 'LC040, was 3.11/6.22. I was > > > working more from the > > > experience with Windows that I'd had more recently. My > > > latest Windows, BTW, is > > > '98SE, and, until they fix some of the very fundamental problems, like > > > non-working OS utilities, e.g. Backup, I'm not getting any > > > more M$ OS products. > > > I'm told it may be a long wait, BTW. > > > > Has microsoft _ever_ had a working backup utility? OK, maybe xenix had a > > working version of tar or cpio (I doubt it had both), but that's it. > > However, since I'm supposed to "leave my anti-ms baggage at the door," > > according to the faq, don't get me started ;) > > > > > This practice of theirs, of buying a non-functional cast-off from some > > > financially-troubled software company and then integrating it > > > into their OS is, > > > in fact, an example of their "monopolistic practices" since > > > > Just ask yourself why most of these companies are troubled in the first > > place... > > > > > they've no intention > > > of supporting the product as an intrinsic function of their > > > OS, though that's > > > what they claim, as in the case of Internet Explorer, it is. > > > Since you can't go > > > to anyone else for a competing OS product, I guess they > > > figure you're screwed, > > > which is how I see it. > > > > Well, my most recent exposure is to windows 2000, which, admittedly, is > > nearly as stable as NT 3.x was (4 was a joke). I only use it at work, and > > only because they give me no choice. At home, I have plenty of other > > options that do whatever I tell them to... ;) > > > > Regards, > > > > Chris > > > > Christopher Smith, Perl Developer > > Amdocs - Champaign, IL > > > > /usr/bin/perl -e ' > > print((~"\x95\xc4\xe3"^"Just Another Perl Hacker.")."\x08!\n"); > > ' > > > > From Antonio.Carlini at riverstonenet.com Tue Nov 20 04:51:42 2001 From: Antonio.Carlini at riverstonenet.com (Carlini, Antonio) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:11:23 2005 Subject: SCB68430 DMA controller data sheets etc. Message-ID: <3820E2042B6ED5118DC200D0B78EDC47066233@exc-reo1> > >It's available on http:\\www.freetradezone.com . There are > two versions > >of the sheet, D0194930.pdf is the 1988 version, D0191623.pdf is the > >earlier 1996 version. > > Thanks! I was able to find it and a lot of other stuff too. I've just had an email from them indicating that they are about to start charging for *some* of their service. It's not clear whether you will soon have to pay to get access to datasheets for out-of-production parts. Antonio arcarlini@iee.org From vze2mnvr at verizon.net Tue Nov 20 04:59:45 2001 From: vze2mnvr at verizon.net (Ian Koller) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:11:23 2005 Subject: OT: paging MAC expert(s) --- What's a Performa? References: <3B55D7F383B0D31197D9009027541CBF1170DE98@cmiexch1.cmi.itds.com> <000f01c17126$bed4d640$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> <3BF94534.64957004@jetnet.ab.ca> <5.0.0.25.0.20011119165437.022272e8@pc> Message-ID: <3BFA37A1.1A13AA3D@verizon.net> Make sure the machine has a SCSI controller in it, and put the "back-up" hard drive in an external SCSI enclosure. Or use pull out's, SCSI or IDE. John Foust wrote: > > At 03:05 PM 11/19/2001 -0700, you wrote: > >My experience has been that folks who have a backup device, capable of doing a > >full scheduled (automatic, without human intervention) system backup of > >everything accessible to the system on a single element of the medium the device > >uses, always seem to have good backup. > > These days on today's PCs, it's easier to buy a spare > hard disk, and copy (using 'at', the scheduler, TaskZip, > whatever) your vital files to it. Take a tape backup > off-site as frequently as you like, or just carry the > spare hard disk. > > - John From mark_k at totalise.co.uk Tue Nov 20 05:35:04 2001 From: mark_k at totalise.co.uk (Mark Knibbs) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:11:23 2005 Subject: FreeTradeZone site moving to subscription-only for older parts Message-ID: <3C8FADE5@mail.totalise.co.uk> Hi, Some of you have probably used the PartMiner/FreeTradeZone web site at http://www.freetradezone.com/ to download datasheets for older, discontinued chips. This has been very useful to me. For discontinued products (which I guess is what most of us are interested in), they are moving to a subscription-only system. Subscription cost is a whopping US$299 per month (introductory; the normal cost is supposedly US$375), so future access will only be viable for most people if you need it for your job. I don't know when the change is being made, or if it has happened already. If it hasn't, better download datasheets that you need while you still can. -- Mark From jpl15 at panix.com Tue Nov 20 05:58:31 2001 From: jpl15 at panix.com (John Lawson) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:11:23 2005 Subject: Radio Shack abandons components Message-ID: I have seen several posts on other fora bemoaning the fact that our beloved Radio Shack is rapidly phasing out it's sales of carded components, resistors, caps, diodes, etc. I imagine this to be the case... and another blow to Enginerds and parts-level hobbyists not lucky enough to be near a Fry's or other still-functioning small-quantity parts outlet. Experimenters: Time to stock up! Cheers John From dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com Tue Nov 20 06:26:23 2001 From: dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com (Douglas Quebbeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:11:23 2005 Subject: OT: paging MAC expert(s) --- What's a Performa? Message-ID: <7A9BACCEF0171D4FB77019F5104CDD3722593C@jeffserver.tegjeff.com> > WDEF could do this, but it was rendered dead by System 7 (it infected the > System 6 and earlier desktop database, so when a disk was inserted, it > could spread to any uninfected desktop databases) This caused me much grief, as I had a customized WDEF routine I'd edit into every System file; it was Andy's source, modified to do the Lisa-styled titlebar and widgets. But anti-virus software of the day gave false positives for my WDEF. -dq From dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com Tue Nov 20 06:29:03 2001 From: dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com (Douglas Quebbeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:11:23 2005 Subject: Radio Shack abandons components Message-ID: <7A9BACCEF0171D4FB77019F5104CDD3722593D@jeffserver.tegjeff.com> > Experimenters: Time to stock up! Nah... Long Live Jameco & Digi-Key! -dq From cmurillo at emtelsa.multi.net.co Tue Nov 20 06:51:16 2001 From: cmurillo at emtelsa.multi.net.co (Carlos Murillo) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:11:23 2005 Subject: OT: paging MAC expert(s) --- What's a Performa? In-Reply-To: <200111200222.PAA14062@s454.cosc.canterbury.ac.nz> References: <002d01c17160$e3077380$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> Message-ID: <3.0.2.32.20011120075116.01d5ea14@obregon.multi.net.co> At 03:22 PM 11/20/01 +1300, Greg wrote: \>I can't think of a way for a virus to jump onto a disk on a Mac simply >by the disk being there, without any virus-infected program >running. Unless a virus has attacked the Finder or the OS itself, >which is a possibility, I suppose. > >But even then, the virus can't jump *off* the disk onto a previously >clean system without running something from the disk, and that won't >happen unless you explicitly tell it to. If there's some way for that >to happen on Windows, then Windows is definitely more virus-friendly! Weren't there some mac viruses that would attach to the resource fork of a volume/file and then simply by opening the folder to browse it the virus code would run? carlos. -------------------------------------------------------------- Carlos E. Murillo-Sanchez carlos_murillo@nospammers.ieee.org From guerney at bigpond.com Tue Nov 20 06:25:58 2001 From: guerney at bigpond.com (Phil) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:11:23 2005 Subject: Interesting find References: <20011120005251.F22748-100000@lepton.subatomix.com> Message-ID: <001d01c171be$82d4e5c0$7937fea9@Guerney> Jeffrey, ....only in America. I've been on the lookout for any of the 98XX series HP desktop "calculators" (most definitely computers), but here "down-under", no such luck. I think it would be uneconomical to freight one from the USA though :( Cheers Phil Brisbane, Australia ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jeffrey S. Sharp" To: Sent: Tuesday, November 20, 2001 5:01 PM Subject: Interesting find > I'm not much of a calculator collector, but the following seems to be much > more than a mere calculator. I've located an HP 9825 for $5 at a local > surplus store. I think I'll go purchase it tomorrow. > > -- > Jeffrey S. Sharp > jss@subatomix.com > From jfoust at threedee.com Tue Nov 20 07:09:48 2001 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:11:23 2005 Subject: OT: paging MAC expert(s) --- What's a Performa? In-Reply-To: <002d01c17160$e3077380$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> References: <3B55D7F383B0D31197D9009027541CBF1170DE98@cmiexch1.cmi.itds.com> <000f01c17126$bed4d640$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> <3BF94534.64957004@jetnet.ab.ca> <5.0.0.25.0.20011119165437.022272e8@pc> Message-ID: <5.0.0.25.0.20011120070908.022272e8@pc> At 06:15 PM 11/19/2001 -0700, Richard Erlacher wrote: > Viruses can't deal directly with the tape, just >as the OS can't deal directly with the tape. A virus that gets onto a tape >won't be an executable, hence probably won't go there except in the form of >already-corrupted files. That's it. I'm going over to sit with Sellam. - John From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Tue Nov 20 07:28:12 2001 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (Allison) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:11:23 2005 Subject: PDP-8 backplane -- was Re: PDP-8 case Message-ID: <002a01c171c7$356c38c0$6b7b7b7b@ajp> Omnibus dones not have a unibus/qbus grant chain. the general organisation is anywhere it fits generally works save for cards that have over the top connections. Allison -----Original Message----- From: Pete Turnbull To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org Date: Tuesday, November 20, 2001 3:52 AM Subject: PDP-8 backplane -- was Re: PDP-8 case >On Nov 20, 0:53, Tony Duell wrote: >> Since you can put options with top connectors anywhere in the backplane, >> there would seem to be little point in having special foam over the front >> slots only. > >That reminds me... supplementary question: The machine had gaps between >some of the cards. It's over 20 years since I used a PDP-8 for real, and >in those days I wasn't usually allowed at the innards. The gaps don't >matter, do they? There's no grant chain like in a Unibus, AFAIR. The >-8/E is an Omnibus machine, of course. > >-- >Pete Peter Turnbull > Network Manager > University of York > From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Tue Nov 20 07:32:33 2001 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (Allison) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:11:23 2005 Subject: HP 3000 No More (legacy) Message-ID: <003701c171c7$d0a9bce0$6b7b7b7b@ajp> Noteably the Bridgeport company consumed some 100,000 LSI-11 card sets for their NC systems. Later I think Falcon(T11) cards were also used and I've seena fair number of PDP-8s mated to the larger vertical mills. Thats not even close to exhaustive list. Other cpus (HP, Cincinatti Millichron, Z80 based, 6800 and 6502 as well). Allison -----Original Message----- From: Ian Koller To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org Date: Tuesday, November 20, 2001 4:46 AM Subject: Re: HP 3000 No More (legacy) > > >ajp166 wrote: >> For those CNC tools with PDP-8 or PDP11s running them > >What mfg. model CNC machines run on PDP's? > > > >ajp166 wrote: >> >> From: Dave McGuire >> >> >On November 17, Stan Sieler wrote: >> >> PA-RISC is dead/dying ... HP has said so. IA-64 killed it. >> > >> > [knee-jerk reaction to a pet peeve follows] >> > >> > Well, as long as "dead" can be defined as "salespeople don't want to >> >sell you a new one". For me, it can't. I can pick up the phone and >> >buy PDP8 equipment from a commercial vendor. How long ago was THAT >> >architecture discontinued? >> > >> > For me, something is "dead" (or "obsolete" or whatever you want to >> >call it) when it can no longer do its job adequately and >> >> Dead to me is broken. Obsolete is when it cant forfill the intesded task >> or when it has reached a level of repair difficulty where replacement is >> an option. For those CNC tools with PDP-8 or PDP11s running them >> that number is still over $50,000 to upgrade and 100s of thousands of >> dollars to replace. In the face of that the PDP-8 that still makes good >> flanges is cheap at $2000 for a working cold spare. >> >> For example I was given three working 386(mono) and 486(color) laptops >> as too weak to be useful. Fully working machines with Xircom network >> adaptors and all! >> >> Allison > From rcini at optonline.net Tue Nov 20 07:48:06 2001 From: rcini at optonline.net (Richard A. Cini, Jr.) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:11:23 2005 Subject: OT: List features - table of contents? Message-ID: While scanning the digest this morning (I'm on vacation) I remembered back to a long time ago when the list digest had a table of contents of the messages at the top of the digest. Is this a subscription option or a feature of the list manager software that we can have back? Oh, Sam...email me. I have that DayGlo yellow 8080 you were looking for. Only one made you know :-) Rich Rich Cini Collector of classic computers Build Master for the Altair32 Emulation Project Web site: http://highgate.comm.sfu.ca/~rcini/classiccmp/ /************************************************************/ From jrice at texoma.net Tue Nov 20 07:57:24 2001 From: jrice at texoma.net (James L. Rice) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:11:23 2005 Subject: Radio Shack abandons components References: Message-ID: <3BFA6144.2080309@texoma.net> I guess I'm lucky, living in Dallas. We have two Fry's, Altex Electronics, Allied Electronics, Mouser Electronics, Tanner's (a small family owned component and surplus store, one of the best stocks of components I've ever seen) and BG Micro, all witin a 30 minute driving range. i've never thought about having to mail order even the most basic parts until my friend moved to a small town in Oklahoma, just south of the Kansas border. He tells me that unless it can be found at Rat Shack or Wal-Mart, he SOL.. James http://home.texoma.net/~jrice John Lawson wrote: > > I have seen several posts on other fora bemoaning the fact that our >beloved Radio Shack is rapidly phasing out it's sales of carded >components, resistors, caps, diodes, etc. > > I imagine this to be the case... and another blow to Enginerds and >parts-level hobbyists not lucky enough to be near a Fry's or other >still-functioning small-quantity parts outlet. > > > Experimenters: Time to stock up! > > > > Cheers > >John > > >. > From jrice at texoma.net Tue Nov 20 08:10:48 2001 From: jrice at texoma.net (James L. Rice) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:11:23 2005 Subject: Radio Shack abandons components References: <3BFA6144.2080309@texoma.net> Message-ID: <3BFA6468.90507@texoma.net> Sorry for the typos. I broke a couple of fingers this week. Hard to type with fingers taped together James L. Rice wrote: > I guess I'm lucky, living in Dallas. We have two Fry's, Altex > Electronics, Allied Electronics, Mouser Electronics, Tanner's (a small > family owned component and surplus store, one of the best stocks of > components I've ever seen) and BG Micro, all witin a 30 minute driving > range. i've never thought about having to mail order even the most > basic parts until my friend moved to a small town in Oklahoma, just > south of the Kansas border. He tells me that unless it can be found > at Rat Shack or Wal-Mart, he SOL.. > > James > > http://home.texoma.net/~jrice From angela at holybears.com Tue Nov 20 08:18:46 2001 From: angela at holybears.com (Angela Carroll) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:11:23 2005 Subject: Eltron 16VAC adapters Message-ID: I would like to get one or more of those adapters if you have any left. From edick at idcomm.com Tue Nov 20 09:02:54 2001 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:11:23 2005 Subject: OT: paging MAC expert(s) --- What's a Performa? Message-ID: <001101c171d4$6f0e5420$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> This was misrouted and returned to me, I know not why or where ... Let's try again ... Dick > -----Original Message----- > From: Richard Erlacher [mailto:edick@idcomm.com] > Sent: 20 November 2001 01:08 > To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org > Subject: Re: OT: paging MAC expert(s) --- What's a Performa? > > > If you're meaning operating on the tape contents, you're talking about weeks > to > months. The bits of a file are scattered around the disk, since it's random > access, albeit in "clusters" or whatever you choose to call them, and in > blocks, > as the data buffer stores them, but unless you KNOW where the directory is > in > the bitwise image of the disk, and unless you know where all the pieces of > the > drive are to be found in the tape image, I'd submit it would be a mite > tedious. > The problem, of course, with image backup, is that the bits have to be > extracted > from the drive at the raw data level, i.e. with controller commands you > normally > don't deal with, and they can't be faithfully restored to a drive that's not > physically identical to the one you started with, i.e. same number of heads, > cylinders, sectors, etc, PHYSICALLY, else things fall apart, since we don't > know > how the drive firmware deals with translating from the block-level commands > the > OS may choose to send it, though it doesn't have to, to the buffers-full of > data > that the drive coughs up. > > Remember, when you restart the system, it has no OS other than what you can > load > from a floppy. IF that's the same, which certainly isn't the case under > WIndows, as what you used to do the backup, then you're able, potentially, > to > deal with the data to be transferred to the newly cleaned drive in the same > way > that this particular OS deals with it. Of course, the OS doesn't know what > you're doing, and doesn't know how to read the data on the disk, except as > raw > data, dealt with in buffer-fulls, and than only using the code you've > written. > > Dick > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Christopher Smith" > To: > Sent: Monday, November 19, 2001 4:00 PM > Subject: RE: OT: paging MAC expert(s) --- What's a Performa? > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > From: Richard Erlacher [mailto:edick@idcomm.com] > > > > > If your recorded "backup" is a bit-for-bit image of the disk contents, > > > transferred to and from tape, there's no interpretation of > > > the contents into > > > files that can take place, is there? > > > > That's an interesting way to phrase this particular question, since the > > contents are already in the form of "files" -- that is, if you ask the set > > of drivers that got them to the disk in the first place. :) > > > > I believe it's possible (though it would be slow) to interpret a > bit-for-bit > > image directly on a tape and extract any given file, along with > attributes, > > etc. In fact, any operation that would be possible on a disk, in this > case, > > could be handled on a tape. The clincher is that it would involve a lot > of > > seek/rewind/seek/etc/etc.. > > > > The underlying O/S need not even know the difference between the disk and > > tape, except to know that the tape is removable (...that's not absolutely > > required), and perhaps that it's incredibly slow. > > > > The worst that would be required is a device abstraction layer or the > like. > > You could write one yourself which would make the tape device "look" like > a > > disk device, for systems which don't have such a thing, and that would be > > enough. > > > > How would you like to be able to mount your backup tape, and use a > > file-manager on it? ;) > > > > > The Microsoft Backup that came with DOS, (a) never really was > > > a backup, but, > > > rather, was just a copy, and (b) never worked together with > > > its "restore" > > > function. Under DOS, copies were adequate, since the context > > > didn't matter. > > > > If you mean that it didn't store attributes, or that sort of thing, you > may > > be right (never paid attention.) On the other hand, you're also right to > > say that it wouldn't particularly matter under MS-DOS. > > > > Regards, > > > > Chris > > > > > > Christopher Smith, Perl Developer > > Amdocs - Champaign, IL > > > > /usr/bin/perl -e ' > > print((~"\x95\xc4\xe3"^"Just Another Perl Hacker.")."\x08!\n"); > > ' > > > > > > > > From edick at idcomm.com Tue Nov 20 09:10:25 2001 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:11:23 2005 Subject: 1771 floppy controller questions References: Message-ID: <001f01c171d5$7bf7e1a0$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> OK ... I can believe you'd reach that conclusion from what you describe. I've done that on one of those "late nights" on more than one occasion. It's reasonable to assume the part is toast, given that there are several supplies, each of which has been applied to the wrong pins. Too bad ... Dick ----- Original Message ----- From: "Tothwolf" To: Sent: Tuesday, November 20, 2001 2:25 AM Subject: Re: 1771 floppy controller questions > On Tue, 20 Nov 2001, Richard Erlacher wrote: > > From: "Tothwolf" > > > On Mon, 19 Nov 2001, Michael Holley wrote: > > > > From: "Tothwolf" > > > > > > > > > I have a complete TRS-80 Model I that has a dead Western Digital FD1771-01 > > > > > chip in its expansion interface. Does anyone know if a National 1771-B01 > > > > > is a suitable replacement? What would be a fair/reasonable price for a new > > > > > 1771 these days? > > > > > > > > B. G. Micro, www.bgmicro.com, has FD1771s for $4.95. > > > > > > Thanks for the info. I should be able to get my local vendor to match that > > > price since B.G. Micro is a fairly well known vendor. > > > > What is it that makes you believe that the 1771 s the problem? > > Well, I accidentally plugged the chip in backward when troubleshooting the > floppy interface right after I got it. It turned out that the floppy > ribbon was bad, just due to age I guess. I don't think the chip let out > its magic smoke, but it certainly does not work now ;) > > -Toth > > From csmith at amdocs.com Tue Nov 20 09:10:44 2001 From: csmith at amdocs.com (Christopher Smith) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:11:23 2005 Subject: OT: paging MAC expert(s) --- What's a Performa? Message-ID: <3B55D7F383B0D31197D9009027541CBF1170DEA7@cmiexch1.cmi.itds.com> > -----Original Message----- > From: Greg Ewing [mailto:greg@cosc.canterbury.ac.nz] > Christopher Smith : > > > Finder is the Macintosh shell. Best not to confuse the > users with terms > > like "file manager," "shell," "interface," "front-end," > Those are such dry, boring, Microsoft-sounding names. > Finder is so much cooler! Actually, those "dry" names mostly come from long before bill gates had even thought of writing a bad basic interpreter. > And it's not so much of a misnomer if you think of it > the right way. It lets *you* find things -- i.e. browse > the file system. Also, it finds an appropriate application > to launch for you when you open a document. I don't know if I can agree there. For instance, by allowing you to "browse the file system" and to manage your files, it will let you loose things as easily as find them. Might as well call it the "loser." ;) Now, regarding "finding" an application to run: What it actually does is read the location of the appropriate application from the desktop file, by looking it up based on a type/creator attribute stored in the files resource fork. I don't think it has to "find" anything for that. > By the way, System 7 and later Finders do have a > "Find..." command that will let you search for files > by name. Took them long enough, didn't it? :) I can agree here. This command really does allow one to "find" things, but it's a small part of the functionality of the program. Regards, Chris Christopher Smith, Perl Developer Amdocs - Champaign, IL /usr/bin/perl -e ' print((~"\x95\xc4\xe3"^"Just Another Perl Hacker.")."\x08!\n"); ' From jss at subatomix.com Tue Nov 20 09:13:08 2001 From: jss at subatomix.com (Jeffrey S. Sharp) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:11:23 2005 Subject: Radio Shack abandons components In-Reply-To: <3BFA6144.2080309@texoma.net> Message-ID: <20011120084534.F23837-100000@lepton.subatomix.com> On Tue, 20 Nov 2001, James L. Rice wrote: > my friend moved to a small town in Oklahoma, Unless he just really values the "don't use a turn signal 'cuz everyone knows where I'm goin'" small-town society, please send your friend my condolences. I've been there but managed to escape with (hopefully) more of my life ahead than behind. :-) On the other hand, the cost of living in small-town Oklahoma is one of the cheapest in the USA. For a concrete example, in my old hometown, a nice 3750 ft^2 house with a huge property sold for US$70K. This means less money spent living, more money to spend on classiccmping, and greater ease in finding room to put all of it. -- Jeffrey S. Sharp jss@subatomix.com From ghldbrd at ccp.com Tue Nov 20 10:13:38 2001 From: ghldbrd at ccp.com (Gary Hildebrand) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:11:23 2005 Subject: Radio Shack abandons components References: Message-ID: <3BFA8132.B14060B4@ccp.com> John Lawson wrote: > > I have seen several posts on other fora bemoaning the fact that our > beloved Radio Shack is rapidly phasing out it's sales of carded > components, resistors, caps, diodes, etc. > > I imagine this to be the case... and another blow to Enginerds and > parts-level hobbyists not lucky enough to be near a Fry's or other > still-functioning small-quantity parts outlet. > > Experimenters: Time to stock up! > > Cheers > > John Well the trend is these days not to build anything from parts, especially in ham radio. Even at hamfests, the interesting goodies are disappearing, because there is no demand. The big retailers now make more money selling stereos, satellite TV systems and cell phone service than parats. Back to Jim-pack and mail order. Gary Hildebrand From csmith at amdocs.com Tue Nov 20 09:23:52 2001 From: csmith at amdocs.com (Christopher Smith) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:11:23 2005 Subject: OT: paging MAC expert(s) --- What's a Performa? Message-ID: <3B55D7F383B0D31197D9009027541CBF1170DEA8@cmiexch1.cmi.itds.com> > -----Original Message----- > From: Richard Erlacher [mailto:edick@idcomm.com] > drive are to be found in the tape image, I'd submit it would > be a mite tedious. Well, I didn't say it would be easy ;) It's one of those things that is theoretically simple. > physically identical to the one you started with, i.e. same > number of heads, > cylinders, sectors, etc, PHYSICALLY, else things fall apart, > since we don't know > how the drive firmware deals with translating from the > block-level commands the > OS may choose to send it, though it doesn't have to, to the > buffers-full of data > that the drive coughs up. There must be a method of block-by-block access that will give you the sequence of data you need. Otherwise things would have already fallen apart, and disks would be write-only devices. :) It probably helps to think of the filesystem as a data set, rather than a device-dependant entity. The data is the same, up to a point, no matter what you write it to. Of course, whether the amount of translation you'd need to do to find that essential data set is too much work, is arguable.... > potentially, to > deal with the data to be transferred to the newly cleaned > drive in the same way > that this particular OS deals with it. Of course, the OS > doesn't know what > you're doing, and doesn't know how to read the data on the > disk, except as raw > data, dealt with in buffer-fulls, and than only using the > code you've written. I'm not sure I follow your train of thought here. It's early, though. Regards, Chris Christopher Smith, Perl Developer Amdocs - Champaign, IL /usr/bin/perl -e ' print((~"\x95\xc4\xe3"^"Just Another Perl Hacker.")."\x08!\n"); ' From csmith at amdocs.com Tue Nov 20 09:29:04 2001 From: csmith at amdocs.com (Christopher Smith) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:11:23 2005 Subject: OT: paging MAC expert(s) --- What's a Performa? Message-ID: <3B55D7F383B0D31197D9009027541CBF1170DEA9@cmiexch1.cmi.itds.com> > -----Original Message----- > From: Greg Ewing [mailto:greg@cosc.canterbury.ac.nz] > Richard Erlacher : > > Of course, MAC OS may not be so virus friendly, but I don't know > > about that. > But even then, the virus can't jump *off* the disk onto a previously > clean system without running something from the disk, and that won't > happen unless you explicitly tell it to. If there's some way for that > to happen on Windows, then Windows is definitely more virus-friendly! There's at least one worm that takes advantage of a Quicktime feature (why on earth did they put this in Quicktime?!) that will automatically run some program on a volume when the volume is mounted. Don't remember the name of this "feature," but it is akin to the windows "autorun," and just as bad. Regards, Chris Christopher Smith, Perl Developer Amdocs - Champaign, IL /usr/bin/perl -e ' print((~"\x95\xc4\xe3"^"Just Another Perl Hacker.")."\x08!\n"); ' From univac2 at earthlink.net Tue Nov 20 09:32:02 2001 From: univac2 at earthlink.net (Owen Robertson) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:11:23 2005 Subject: Radio Shack abandons components In-Reply-To: Message-ID: I live just north of Fort Worth, and the big Radio Shack "Outlet Store". They have a lot of discontinued things, and a lot of components. I assume they'll always have them. Owen on 11/20/01 5:58 AM, John Lawson at jpl15@panix.com wrote: > > > I have seen several posts on other fora bemoaning the fact that our > beloved Radio Shack is rapidly phasing out it's sales of carded > components, resistors, caps, diodes, etc. > > I imagine this to be the case... and another blow to Enginerds and > parts-level hobbyists not lucky enough to be near a Fry's or other > still-functioning small-quantity parts outlet. > > > Experimenters: Time to stock up! > > > > Cheers > > John > From edick at idcomm.com Tue Nov 20 09:32:01 2001 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:11:23 2005 Subject: OT: paging MAC expert(s) --- What's a Performa? References: <3B55D7F383B0D31197D9009027541CBF1170DE98@cmiexch1.cmi.itds.com> <000f01c17126$bed4d640$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> <3BFA3562.9C18C21E@verizon.net> Message-ID: <003901c171d8$8000df60$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> Yeah, except that under Windows, you get a copy, perhaps, but not a backup, in that if you have a virus, it is immediately transferred to the extra disk, rendering it unsafe to use. With tape, or CD, or, if there is support for backup, with writeable DVD, the medium requires special and separate software to operate it, so infection with a virus is less likely. Dick ----- Original Message ----- From: "Ian Koller" To: Sent: Tuesday, November 20, 2001 3:50 AM Subject: Re: OT: paging MAC expert(s) --- What's a Performa? > > > I don't know what a guy's to do. I guess image-copying the disk > > to tape, empty space and all, is the only solution. > > The best device to back up a hard drive to is ... another hard > drive. Fastest speed transfers. And as inexpensive as hard drives > are these days, why not? In DOS, and even Win9x ... xcopy > > > > > > Richard Erlacher wrote: > > > > I'm concerned mainly about Win9x. There were numerous backup packages that > > worked VERY well under [DOS6.22/Win3.11]. Since the release of Win9x, I've > > bought several backup packages, and a couple of releases of each, yet not seen > > one that even barely worked on any sort of consistent basis. The early backup > > program from ADAPTEC, part of their EasySCSI 4.xx package, didn't even support > > SCSI devices, and freely admitted it. Microsoft's backup utility for Windows95 > > didn't support SCSI devices either. Seagate Backup Exec supported SCSI-1 and > > SCSI-2 devices, though it didn't work terribly well because it opened files that > > subsequently required human intervention in order to complete the backup. > > Moreover, if permission was given to back up those files, it would fall down > > during verify, since it, itself, had modified those files. Novaback for > > Windows95 failed on 148 of the 151 units one of my clients has, failing in all > > those cases, to complete the backup. I've never managed to get Novaback to > > finish a restore either. Cheyenne backup was a miserable flop, failing to read > > its own writing from time to time. I could go on ... > > > > There's something about the OS that interferes with a backup. The Microsoft > > Backup for Win98 seems to work ...sorta... but it only works ...sorta... and > > falls down many times, misinterpreting a drive that the OS recognizes correctly > > to be a 2GB partition to be 300+ Terabytes. Naturally it falls down later > > because of that problem. > > > > An OS without a real backup utility is of little use because you have to have > > backup ... not just copies of things, but a real backup, context and all, that > > enables you to get back to where you were. DOS didn't have that, UNIX doesn't > > have it (though it does have TAR, which makes copies to tape), OS/2 doesn't have > > it, LINUX doesn't have it ... I don't know what a guy's to do. I guess > > image-copying the disk to tape, empty space and all, is the only solution. Of > > course that means the files are replaceable only on an all or nothing basis. > > ^%$#@! ... what a bunch of crap! > > > > Dick > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: "Christopher Smith" > > To: > > Sent: Monday, November 19, 2001 10:22 AM > > Subject: RE: OT: paging MAC expert(s) --- What's a Performa? > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > > From: Richard Erlacher [mailto:edick@idcomm.com] > > > > > > > the Intel CPU as well as the 'LC040, was 3.11/6.22. I was > > > > working more from the > > > > experience with Windows that I'd had more recently. My > > > > latest Windows, BTW, is > > > > '98SE, and, until they fix some of the very fundamental problems, like > > > > non-working OS utilities, e.g. Backup, I'm not getting any > > > > more M$ OS products. > > > > I'm told it may be a long wait, BTW. > > > > > > Has microsoft _ever_ had a working backup utility? OK, maybe xenix had a > > > working version of tar or cpio (I doubt it had both), but that's it. > > > However, since I'm supposed to "leave my anti-ms baggage at the door," > > > according to the faq, don't get me started ;) > > > > > > > This practice of theirs, of buying a non-functional cast-off from some > > > > financially-troubled software company and then integrating it > > > > into their OS is, > > > > in fact, an example of their "monopolistic practices" since > > > > > > Just ask yourself why most of these companies are troubled in the first > > > place... > > > > > > > they've no intention > > > > of supporting the product as an intrinsic function of their > > > > OS, though that's > > > > what they claim, as in the case of Internet Explorer, it is. > > > > Since you can't go > > > > to anyone else for a competing OS product, I guess they > > > > figure you're screwed, > > > > which is how I see it. > > > > > > Well, my most recent exposure is to windows 2000, which, admittedly, is > > > nearly as stable as NT 3.x was (4 was a joke). I only use it at work, and > > > only because they give me no choice. At home, I have plenty of other > > > options that do whatever I tell them to... ;) > > > > > > Regards, > > > > > > Chris > > > > > > Christopher Smith, Perl Developer > > > Amdocs - Champaign, IL > > > > > > /usr/bin/perl -e ' > > > print((~"\x95\xc4\xe3"^"Just Another Perl Hacker.")."\x08!\n"); > > > ' > > > > > > > > From edick at idcomm.com Tue Nov 20 09:33:47 2001 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:11:23 2005 Subject: SCB68430 DMA controller data sheets etc. References: <3820E2042B6ED5118DC200D0B78EDC47066233@exc-reo1> Message-ID: <003f01c171d8$bf492100$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> If you save the links to the manufacturer data sites, you'll probably be OK in the future. I've noticed over the past year that their links to datasheets have often come up empty. This makes me wonder whether it might be worth paying for, since I can come up empty on my own without subscribing to a service. Dick ----- Original Message ----- From: "Carlini, Antonio" To: Sent: Tuesday, November 20, 2001 3:51 AM Subject: RE: SCB68430 DMA controller data sheets etc. > > >It's available on http:\\www.freetradezone.com . There are > > two versions > > >of the sheet, D0194930.pdf is the 1988 version, D0191623.pdf is the > > >earlier 1996 version. > > > > Thanks! I was able to find it and a lot of other stuff too. > > I've just had an email from them > indicating that they are about to > start charging for *some* of their > service. > > It's not clear whether you will > soon have to pay to get access > to datasheets for out-of-production > parts. > > Antonio > arcarlini@iee.org > > From DAW at yalepress3.unipress.yale.edu Tue Nov 20 09:45:15 2001 From: DAW at yalepress3.unipress.yale.edu (David Woyciesjes) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:11:23 2005 Subject: FreeTradeZone site moving to subscription-only for older part s Message-ID: <9011A52E011ED311B4280004AC1BA615014672BB@yalepress3.unipress.yale.edu> Maybe runs a full-tilt website crawler/archiver program? The kind that grabs whetever pages you tell it, for offline reading, or some such thing? --- David A Woyciesjes --- C & IS Support Specialist --- Yale University Press --- mailto:david.woyciesjes@yale.edu --- (203) 432-0953 --- ICQ # - 905818 ! -----Original Message----- ! From: Mark Knibbs [mailto:mark_k@totalise.co.uk] ! Sent: Tuesday, November 20, 2001 6:35 AM ! To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org ! Cc: mark_k@totalise.co.uk ! Subject: FreeTradeZone site moving to subscription-only for ! older parts ! ! ! Hi, ! ! Some of you have probably used the PartMiner/FreeTradeZone web site at ! http://www.freetradezone.com/ to download datasheets for ! older, discontinued ! chips. This has been very useful to me. ! ! For discontinued products (which I guess is what most of us ! are interested ! in), they are moving to a subscription-only system. ! Subscription cost is a ! whopping US$299 per month (introductory; the normal cost is ! supposedly ! US$375), so future access will only be viable for most people ! if you need it ! for your job. ! ! I don't know when the change is being made, or if it has ! happened already. If ! it hasn't, better download datasheets that you need while you ! still can. ! ! -- Mark ! From edick at idcomm.com Tue Nov 20 09:42:08 2001 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:11:23 2005 Subject: FreeTradeZone site moving to subscription-only for older parts References: <3C8FADE5@mail.totalise.co.uk> Message-ID: <004b01c171d9$e9f3de80$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> Frankly, though it would be useful on the job, it's hard to imagine a small shop being able to justify this level of expense for the relatively small percentage of the information that proved both useful and correct. On those occasions on which I did find what I was looking for the information was often so out-of-date that it really didn't matter. Data sheets, of course, don't change much, but their pointers to existing inventory "out there" in distribution usually were a wild-goose-chase. With the 10% success rate I experienced on parts I wanted, I've got to say it's not likely I'd pay $300/mo even if I had a dozen engineers using their research support. If I had a hundred purchasing guys, that might be different, except for the low success rate. It might be worth paying for this service if their links were kept current, and if one had the $10e9 procurement budget against which to justify such a high monthly cost. There have been numerous occasions on which GOOGLE has found parts they (PartMiner/FreeTradeZone) didn't, both in terms of data sheets and in existing inventory. I'd not pay for their service until they exceed by at least 100x the success rate of a public serach engine. Dick ----- Original Message ----- From: "Mark Knibbs" To: Cc: Sent: Tuesday, November 20, 2001 4:35 AM Subject: FreeTradeZone site moving to subscription-only for older parts > Hi, > > Some of you have probably used the PartMiner/FreeTradeZone web site at > http://www.freetradezone.com/ to download datasheets for older, discontinued > chips. This has been very useful to me. > > For discontinued products (which I guess is what most of us are interested > in), they are moving to a subscription-only system. Subscription cost is a > whopping US$299 per month (introductory; the normal cost is supposedly > US$375), so future access will only be viable for most people if you need it > for your job. > > I don't know when the change is being made, or if it has happened already. If > it hasn't, better download datasheets that you need while you still can. > > -- Mark > > From ncherry at home.com Tue Nov 20 09:52:02 2001 From: ncherry at home.com (Neil Cherry) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:11:23 2005 Subject: Radio Shack abandons components References: <20011120084534.F23837-100000@lepton.subatomix.com> Message-ID: <3BFA7C22.CA356CC0@home.com> "Jeffrey S. Sharp" wrote: > > On Tue, 20 Nov 2001, James L. Rice wrote: > > > my friend moved to a small town in Oklahoma, > > Unless he just really values the "don't use a turn signal 'cuz everyone > knows where I'm goin'" small-town society, please send your friend my > condolences. I've been there but managed to escape with (hopefully) more > of my life ahead than behind. :-) > > On the other hand, the cost of living in small-town Oklahoma is one of the > cheapest in the USA. For a concrete example, in my old hometown, a nice > 3750 ft^2 house with a huge property sold for US$70K. This means less > money spent living, more money to spend on classiccmping, and greater ease > in finding room to put all of it. My wife an I have gotten pretty good at catalog shopping, so mail order works well for us. I'm finding that most of the local stores (even the malls) are selling lower quality items. Though I will say that Kmart has made a vast improvement since Martha Stewart got involved. The only thing we can't do mail order is food. I live in NJ and find that the area's restaurants stay open until ~midnight and we have a varied menu to choose from. I understand that Brooklyn has a more varied menu too. On the other note of piece meal components, I've found that with a lot of imagination one can take advantage of today's uControllers to build some of the coolest stuff. Processors cost ~$6, 3 pcbs (~2"x3") $50, add the components and a single hand built board can cost <$100. PLD's, FPGA, etc. etc.. Man do we live in interesting times (both good and bad). -- Linux Home Automation Neil Cherry ncherry@home.net http://members.home.net/ncherry (Text only) http://linuxha.sourceforge.net/ (SourceForge) http://hcs.sourceforge.net/ (HCS II) From edick at idcomm.com Tue Nov 20 09:46:41 2001 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:11:23 2005 Subject: Radio Shack abandons components References: Message-ID: <005101c171da$8c5e8b20$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> It's not a bad idea to check RadioShack.com, which is a parts-oriented outlet that, unfortunately, didn't interact with the RadioShack stores. They have lots of parts, connectors that fit together, and lots of other stuff that the corner Radio Shack store never thought to carry. Moreover, they have people who answer the phone and a web-accessible parts inventory that uses industry standard part numbers rather than Radio Shack secret code. It happens that their store is here in Denver, which is advantageous for shipping, I guess, but, having visited the place myself, I have to say it's a shame they also retail computers and other electronics, which means that market trends could push them out of the parts biz after a while too. Their company is, after all, run by marketing and the bean counters. Dick ----- Original Message ----- From: "John Lawson" To: Sent: Tuesday, November 20, 2001 4:58 AM Subject: Radio Shack abandons components > > > I have seen several posts on other fora bemoaning the fact that our > beloved Radio Shack is rapidly phasing out it's sales of carded > components, resistors, caps, diodes, etc. > > I imagine this to be the case... and another blow to Enginerds and > parts-level hobbyists not lucky enough to be near a Fry's or other > still-functioning small-quantity parts outlet. > > > Experimenters: Time to stock up! > > > > Cheers > > John > > From edick at idcomm.com Tue Nov 20 09:48:00 2001 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:11:23 2005 Subject: Radio Shack abandons components References: <7A9BACCEF0171D4FB77019F5104CDD3722593D@jeffserver.tegjeff.com> Message-ID: <005d01c171da$bbabeb20$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> Well, this means that DigiKey will have yet another price increase, as Radio Shack did serve to provide a ceiling on parts/materials prices. Dick ----- Original Message ----- From: "Douglas Quebbeman" To: Sent: Tuesday, November 20, 2001 5:29 AM Subject: RE: Radio Shack abandons components > > Experimenters: Time to stock up! > > Nah... Long Live Jameco & Digi-Key! > > -dq > > From tothwolf at concentric.net Tue Nov 20 09:51:11 2001 From: tothwolf at concentric.net (Tothwolf) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:11:24 2005 Subject: 1771 floppy controller questions In-Reply-To: <001f01c171d5$7bf7e1a0$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> Message-ID: On Tue, 20 Nov 2001, Richard Erlacher wrote: > From: "Tothwolf" > > On Tue, 20 Nov 2001, Richard Erlacher wrote: > > > > > What is it that makes you believe that the 1771 s the problem? > > > > Well, I accidentally plugged the chip in backward when troubleshooting the > > floppy interface right after I got it. It turned out that the floppy > > ribbon was bad, just due to age I guess. I don't think the chip let out > > its magic smoke, but it certainly does not work now ;) > > OK ... I can believe you'd reach that conclusion from what you describe. I've > done that on one of those "late nights" on more than one occasion. It's > reasonable to assume the part is toast, given that there are several supplies, > each of which has been applied to the wrong pins. Too bad ... I'm really not too worried about it, since the 1771 does seem to be available and I have the technical reference book for the expansion interface. I don't think there are any unusual or proprietary chips used in the expansion interface with the exception of the floppy controller. If it took out any other logic chips with it, I should be able to replace those easily. It appears that my local vendor may have just assumed the part he has in stock is a National, since I can't find any references to National ever manufacturing a 1771, and the -B01 is a WD suffix. -Toth From csmith at amdocs.com Tue Nov 20 09:53:55 2001 From: csmith at amdocs.com (Christopher Smith) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:11:24 2005 Subject: Update: Hello, and please help with RSX-11M/PDP parts Message-ID: <3B55D7F383B0D31197D9009027541CBF1170DEAA@cmiexch1.cmi.itds.com> Due to popular demand (by pretty much everyone who's answered this post. :) I've gotten the version of RSX, as close as I can manage, and everything else that the system tells me. For those of you who missed it, I'm trying to get this machine to log me in as some privileged user so that I can -- among other things -- back the drive up. The startup sequence on the console port looks like this: 2J5;0H Testing in progress - Please wait 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 Starting system DEVICE TT005: NOT IN CONFIGURATION At this point the console port does nothing more, however, on another port at the time, we see: RSX-11M V4.2 BL38D 512.K MAPPED >RED DU:=SY: >RED DU:=LB: >MOV DU:DF370B >@DU:[1,2]STARTUP >* Please enter time and date (HR:MN DD-MMM-YY) [S]: At this point if one enters a time/date, they will be rewarded with a > prompt, and logged in as [10,10]. If you hit ^Z, the exact same thing happens. :) Any more ideas? Regards, Chris Christopher Smith, Perl Developer Amdocs - Champaign, IL /usr/bin/perl -e ' print((~"\x95\xc4\xe3"^"Just Another Perl Hacker.")."\x08!\n"); ' From edick at idcomm.com Tue Nov 20 09:57:26 2001 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:11:24 2005 Subject: OT: paging MAC expert(s) --- What's a Performa? References: <3B55D7F383B0D31197D9009027541CBF1170DE98@cmiexch1.cmi.itds.com> <000f01c17126$bed4d640$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> <3BF94534.64957004@jetnet.ab.ca> <5.0.0.25.0.20011119165437.022272e8@pc> <5.0.0.25.0.20011120070908.022272e8@pc> Message-ID: <007301c171dc$0cf1c6c0$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> I'm not awar of how this works on a MAC, but under Windows, the OS checks to see what volumes are available to it on about a 1 Hz schedule. If a virus is looking for a drive to infect, it finds it as soon as the OS says it's there, and its dirty work begins. Unless you're using a utility that masquerades a tape drive as a disk, e.g. TapeDisk or Direct-Tape-Access, both of which assign a drive letter to the tape drive and allow you to put a Windows file system on the tape, an application that deals directly with the tape has to be in place in order to access it. Though an infected program can be stored on the tape, since the OS can't do file I/O to/from the tape without help from a tape handler application (not just the driver) the tape can't easily become a vehicle for transfer of a virus unless you transfer an infected file to your newly cleaned hard disk and subsequently execute it. I'm told that there are completely different mechanisms in place on a MAC, and that could make a huge difference. If you want to sit with Sellam, it's not a problem for me. I'm sure he'll enjoy the company. Dick ----- Original Message ----- From: "John Foust" To: Sent: Tuesday, November 20, 2001 6:09 AM Subject: Re: OT: paging MAC expert(s) --- What's a Performa? > At 06:15 PM 11/19/2001 -0700, Richard Erlacher wrote: > > Viruses can't deal directly with the tape, just > >as the OS can't deal directly with the tape. A virus that gets onto a tape > >won't be an executable, hence probably won't go there except in the form of > >already-corrupted files. > > That's it. I'm going over to sit with Sellam. > > - John > > From cmcmanis at mcmanis.com Tue Nov 20 10:11:55 2001 From: cmcmanis at mcmanis.com (Chuck McManis) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:11:24 2005 Subject: Radio Shack abandons components In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <5.0.0.25.2.20011120081004.024bfde0@209.185.79.193> I've seen this coming for a while. At 06:58 AM 11/20/01 -0500, John wrote: > I have seen several posts on other fora bemoaning the fact that our >beloved Radio Shack is rapidly phasing out it's sales of carded >components, resistors, caps, diodes, etc. > > I imagine this to be the case... and another blow to Enginerds and >parts-level hobbyists not lucky enough to be near a Fry's or other >still-functioning small-quantity parts outlet. > > Experimenters: Time to stock up! If you live in the US (sorry John) then Digikey is pretty good at getting many of the parts you need. Between them, Mouser, and a few surplus places I can find everything I need for any given project. However, it is true that "hobbyist" electronics is quickly going to become a lot more challenging. --Chuck From edick at idcomm.com Tue Nov 20 10:18:14 2001 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:11:24 2005 Subject: OT: paging MAC expert(s) --- What's a Performa? References: <3B55D7F383B0D31197D9009027541CBF1170DEA8@cmiexch1.cmi.itds.com> Message-ID: <008b01c171de$f50c7fc0$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> Perhaps you've lost track, but the subject was recording a bitwise image of the drive to be restored, rather than a file-by-file image. This involves taking raw blocks of data, in some repeatable sequence, saving them on a storage medium, and subsequently writing them back to a physically identical (not just logically identical) target, without consideration for whether the data in a given block is part of a file or part of a directory (also a file, but who cares?), the object being to recreate the original environment. An example might be recording the "container file" in a compressed volume. Much of that file might be unallocated space, but, as the file is, itself, allocated in the uncompressed domain, restoring it bitwise will restore the compressed partition and its associated file system. One can also record the file data under an operating system that recognizes the compressed partition, the result of which would be the recording of the uncompressed data. The bitwise image transfer from disk=>tape can be done without knowledge of either the compression scheme or of the OS/file system used on it. It does require, however, that the entire image be recorded so it can be restored in its entirety. The result is that you can use a different OS to do that task though it's not required, and the penalty is that you have no access to the file data, though you could, I guess, go to the trouble of deciphering the bitwise image into a logical file system if one originally existed. You can do that under any circumstances, but it's a lot of trouble and requires you know a great deal about the low-level processes of converting the data on the orginal drive into the files comprising it. Dick ----- Original Message ----- From: "Christopher Smith" To: Sent: Tuesday, November 20, 2001 8:23 AM Subject: RE: OT: paging MAC expert(s) --- What's a Performa? > > -----Original Message----- > > From: Richard Erlacher [mailto:edick@idcomm.com] > > > drive are to be found in the tape image, I'd submit it would > > be a mite tedious. > > Well, I didn't say it would be easy ;) It's one of those things that is > theoretically simple. > > > physically identical to the one you started with, i.e. same > > number of heads, > > cylinders, sectors, etc, PHYSICALLY, else things fall apart, > > since we don't know > > how the drive firmware deals with translating from the > > block-level commands the > > OS may choose to send it, though it doesn't have to, to the > > buffers-full of data > > that the drive coughs up. > > There must be a method of block-by-block access that will give you the > sequence of data you need. Otherwise things would have already fallen > apart, and disks would be write-only devices. :) It probably helps to think > of the filesystem as a data set, rather than a device-dependant entity. The > data is the same, up to a point, no matter what you write it to. > > Of course, whether the amount of translation you'd need to do to find that > essential data set is too much work, is arguable.... > > > potentially, to > > deal with the data to be transferred to the newly cleaned > > drive in the same way > > that this particular OS deals with it. Of course, the OS > > doesn't know what > > you're doing, and doesn't know how to read the data on the > > disk, except as raw > > data, dealt with in buffer-fulls, and than only using the > > code you've written. > > I'm not sure I follow your train of thought here. It's early, though. > > Regards, > > Chris > > > Christopher Smith, Perl Developer > Amdocs - Champaign, IL > > /usr/bin/perl -e ' > print((~"\x95\xc4\xe3"^"Just Another Perl Hacker.")."\x08!\n"); > ' > > > From edick at idcomm.com Tue Nov 20 10:36:39 2001 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:11:24 2005 Subject: 1771 floppy controller questions References: Message-ID: <009901c171e1$8758ab40$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> I don't know right offhand of any second sources, except for Intel, which did, IIRC, make a 1771-equivalent/compatible for a time. They went the NEC route when MFM became popular, however. WD also made a 1781 which was M2FM capable, and, as some folks will tell you, THAT's a hard modulation scheme to support. As I mentioned before, it might be worthwhile to communicate with Tony Duell regarding the expansion interface, as he recently admitted he'd actually made the model-1 disk interface work as it was designed to work. A lot of folks couldn't get reasonable reliability until they bought a third-party enhancment for the floppy interface. Dick ----- Original Message ----- From: "Tothwolf" To: Sent: Tuesday, November 20, 2001 8:51 AM Subject: Re: 1771 floppy controller questions > On Tue, 20 Nov 2001, Richard Erlacher wrote: > > From: "Tothwolf" > > > On Tue, 20 Nov 2001, Richard Erlacher wrote: > > > > > > > What is it that makes you believe that the 1771 s the problem? > > > > > > Well, I accidentally plugged the chip in backward when troubleshooting the > > > floppy interface right after I got it. It turned out that the floppy > > > ribbon was bad, just due to age I guess. I don't think the chip let out > > > its magic smoke, but it certainly does not work now ;) > > > > OK ... I can believe you'd reach that conclusion from what you describe. I've > > done that on one of those "late nights" on more than one occasion. It's > > reasonable to assume the part is toast, given that there are several supplies, > > each of which has been applied to the wrong pins. Too bad ... > > I'm really not too worried about it, since the 1771 does seem to be > available and I have the technical reference book for the expansion > interface. I don't think there are any unusual or proprietary chips used > in the expansion interface with the exception of the floppy controller. If > it took out any other logic chips with it, I should be able to replace > those easily. > > It appears that my local vendor may have just assumed the part he has in > stock is a National, since I can't find any references to National ever > manufacturing a 1771, and the -B01 is a WD suffix. > > -Toth > > From rhblakeman at kih.net Tue Nov 20 10:41:14 2001 From: rhblakeman at kih.net (Russ Blakeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:11:24 2005 Subject: Radio Shack abandons components In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Radio Shack has been slowly diminishing the individual parts and goin for the glamour sales of consumer electronics mostly anymore. Won't be long and the days of RS/Lafayette/Olson being in the nearby neighborhood strip malls for those that want to "do it themselves" will be totally gone. -> -----Original Message----- -> From: owner-classiccmp@classiccmp.org -> [mailto:owner-classiccmp@classiccmp.org]On Behalf Of John Lawson -> Sent: Tuesday, November 20, 2001 5:59 AM -> To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org -> Subject: Radio Shack abandons components -> -> -> -> -> I have seen several posts on other fora bemoaning the fact that our -> beloved Radio Shack is rapidly phasing out it's sales of carded -> components, resistors, caps, diodes, etc. -> -> I imagine this to be the case... and another blow to Enginerds and -> parts-level hobbyists not lucky enough to be near a Fry's or other -> still-functioning small-quantity parts outlet. -> -> -> Experimenters: Time to stock up! -> -> -> -> Cheers -> -> John -> -> From edick at idcomm.com Tue Nov 20 10:46:23 2001 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:11:24 2005 Subject: Radio Shack abandons components References: <5.0.0.25.2.20011120081004.024bfde0@209.185.79.193> Message-ID: <00a101c171e2$e3a56720$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> This is only another sign of the trend. Whereas, some 20+ years back, it was no problem to go out and buy IC's and passives, which could easily be reworked, today's ultra dense and surface mounted technology is so difficult to work by hand that board-level repair is very difficult with tools likely to be in the hobbyist's kit. It doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure out what that's done to the market. Consequently, there's little sense in having a worldwide components distribution network, as Radio Shack has had for >25 years. Today's electronic gadgets have a hundred+ components per square inch of PCB, and most of them are difficult to remove/replace without damaging them or the board. For me, it's enough of a problem if I just drop one part. Resistors, capcitors, and inductors are the size of a pinhead nowadays, and you need not only a microscope to read the designators on them, but a vast library to interpret the markings. The retail space is too valuable to use for something that no longer serves the public interest, or the corporate coffers. What's more, the economy benefits more from replacement of a PCB than from its repair, though it costs you, the end-user, more, and generates more rubbish in the landfill. Dick ----- Original Message ----- From: "Chuck McManis" To: Sent: Tuesday, November 20, 2001 9:11 AM Subject: Re: Radio Shack abandons components > I've seen this coming for a while. > > At 06:58 AM 11/20/01 -0500, John wrote: > > I have seen several posts on other fora bemoaning the fact that our > >beloved Radio Shack is rapidly phasing out it's sales of carded > >components, resistors, caps, diodes, etc. > > > > I imagine this to be the case... and another blow to Enginerds and > >parts-level hobbyists not lucky enough to be near a Fry's or other > >still-functioning small-quantity parts outlet. > > > > Experimenters: Time to stock up! > > > If you live in the US (sorry John) then Digikey is pretty good at getting > many of the parts you need. Between them, Mouser, and a few surplus places > I can find everything I need for any given project. However, it is true > that "hobbyist" electronics is quickly going to become a lot more challenging. > > --Chuck > > > From csmith at amdocs.com Tue Nov 20 11:07:06 2001 From: csmith at amdocs.com (Christopher Smith) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:11:24 2005 Subject: OT: paging MAC expert(s) --- What's a Performa? Message-ID: <3B55D7F383B0D31197D9009027541CBF1170DEAF@cmiexch1.cmi.itds.com> > -----Original Message----- > From: Richard Erlacher [mailto:edick@idcomm.com] > medium, and subsequently writing them back to a physically > identical (not just > logically identical) target, without consideration for Why not just logically identical, then? ... assuming, of course, the same o/s would handle devices which are logically identical in an identical manner. (This may not be a safe assumption) [snip] > The bitwise image transfer from disk=>tape can be done > without knowledge of > either the compression scheme or of the OS/file system used > on it. It does > require, however, that the entire image be recorded so it can > be restored in its > entirety. The result is that you can use a different OS to > do that task though > it's not required, and the penalty is that you have no access > to the file data, > though you could, I guess, go to the trouble of deciphering > the bitwise image > into a logical file system if one originally existed. You > can do that under any > circumstances, but it's a lot of trouble and requires you > know a great deal > about the low-level processes of converting the data on the > orginal drive into > the files comprising it. I think you've just summed up my previous point. That being, of course, that if you can record a bit-by-bit image, you should also be able to interpret this image (with quite a bit of extra work), and find the component files. In fact, I'd add that depending on the amount of extra work you're willing to do, you can likely restore the image in a "logical" fashion to a volume that is completely different from the one on which it originally resided. Regards, Chris Christopher Smith, Perl Developer Amdocs - Champaign, IL /usr/bin/perl -e ' print((~"\x95\xc4\xe3"^"Just Another Perl Hacker.")."\x08!\n"); ' From allain at panix.com Tue Nov 20 11:07:47 2001 From: allain at panix.com (John Allain) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:11:24 2005 Subject: Radio Shack abandons components References: <3BFA6144.2080309@texoma.net> <3BFA6468.90507@texoma.net> Message-ID: <035d01c171e5$e113b860$8a0101ac@ibm23xhr06> > Re: Radio Shack abandons components Did TechAmerica (I think that was a RatShack business) make it? That would be an OK way to transition that business and enhance it at the same time. Has everyone seen the catalog? More kit builds than any I've seen in the past 20 years. > Sorry for the typos. I broke a couple of fingers this week. > Hard to type with fingers taped together (James L. Rice) I hope this wasn't from wedging heavy things into 19" racks!* Best wishes in any case. John A. Or from paired Alnico voice coil magnets. Or from belts for 8" drives. Or from ...... From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Tue Nov 20 11:06:36 2001 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (Ben Franchuk) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:11:24 2005 Subject: Radio Shack abandons components References: <20011120084534.F23837-100000@lepton.subatomix.com> <3BFA7C22.CA356CC0@home.com> Message-ID: <3BFA8D9C.35FDD510@jetnet.ab.ca> Neil Cherry wrote: > On the other note of piece meal components, I've found that with a lot of > imagination one can take advantage of today's uControllers to build some > of the coolest stuff. Processors cost ~$6, 3 pcbs (~2"x3") $50, add the > components and a single hand built board can cost <$100. PLD's, FPGA, etc. > etc.. Man do we live in interesting times (both good and bad). But one problem is that almost all real I/O is handled by hard to find semi-custiom chips - PC motherboards come to mind. Many of the older I/O devices are too slow to be of value. Ben Franchuk. -- Live "Pre-historic Cpu's" -- and you thought they were extinct. www.jetnet.ab.ca/users/bfranchuk/index.html From foo at siconic.com Tue Nov 20 11:20:55 2001 From: foo at siconic.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:11:24 2005 Subject: Intel C8080A chip brings $565 on EBAY In-Reply-To: <3BF9A84E.550BBEF9@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: On Mon, 19 Nov 2001, Ben Franchuk wrote: > I suspect it is 100% S-100 bus. Heath Kit? or Zenith? has a nice 8086 > system on a S-100 bus back when people first started cloning dos. Ben > Franchuk. One in the same really, but the Heath model is the H100 and the Zenith model is the Z100. There is also a Z120 which has integrated CRT and disk drives. Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org From foo at siconic.com Tue Nov 20 11:21:20 2001 From: foo at siconic.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:11:24 2005 Subject: Interesting find In-Reply-To: <20011120005251.F22748-100000@lepton.subatomix.com> Message-ID: On Tue, 20 Nov 2001, Jeffrey S. Sharp wrote: > I'm not much of a calculator collector, but the following seems to be > much more than a mere calculator. I've located an HP 9825 for $5 at a > local surplus store. I think I'll go purchase it tomorrow. Good deal, neat little programmable machine. Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org From msell at ontimesupport.com Tue Nov 20 11:27:34 2001 From: msell at ontimesupport.com (Matthew Sell) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:11:24 2005 Subject: Radio Shack abandons components In-Reply-To: <00a101c171e2$e3a56720$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> References: <5.0.0.25.2.20011120081004.024bfde0@209.185.79.193> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20011120112159.0385c9c8@127.0.0.1> And don't forget the fact that people today seem (in my opinion) to experiment and tinker with electronics less and less. I moonlighted at a Radio Shack for two years, and during that time I sold maybe three or four electronics kits to people. I was the biggest buyer in the district of component parts (capacitors, resistors, ICs, and such), while the only real component sales we had were fuses and lamps. Signs of the times. We had a Fry's open up near me (Houston, TX), and walking in there was a real tinkerer's dream. Everything from appliances and telescopes to computers and electronic components (and a decent selection of REAL test equipment - not just DVMs!). I'm surprised that they actually sell electronic components. I could get lost in that store and not come out until Chapter 11....... : ) - Matt At 09:46 AM 11/20/2001 -0700, you wrote: >This is only another sign of the trend. Whereas, some 20+ years back, it >was no >problem to go out and buy IC's and passives, which could easily be reworked, >today's ultra dense and surface mounted technology is so difficult to work by >hand that board-level repair is very difficult with tools likely to be in the >hobbyist's kit. It doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure out what that's >done to the market. > >Consequently, there's little sense in having a worldwide components >distribution >network, as Radio Shack has had for >25 years. Today's electronic gadgets >have >a hundred+ components per square inch of PCB, and most of them are >difficult to >remove/replace without damaging them or the board. For me, it's enough of a >problem if I just drop one part. Resistors, capcitors, and inductors are the >size of a pinhead nowadays, and you need not only a microscope to read the >designators on them, but a vast library to interpret the markings. The retail >space is too valuable to use for something that no longer serves the public >interest, or the corporate coffers. What's more, the economy benefits >more from >replacement of a PCB than from its repair, though it costs you, the end-user, >more, and generates more rubbish in the landfill. > >Dick > >----- Original Message ----- >From: "Chuck McManis" >To: >Sent: Tuesday, November 20, 2001 9:11 AM >Subject: Re: Radio Shack abandons components > > > > I've seen this coming for a while. > > > > At 06:58 AM 11/20/01 -0500, John wrote: > > > I have seen several posts on other fora bemoaning the fact that our > > >beloved Radio Shack is rapidly phasing out it's sales of carded > > >components, resistors, caps, diodes, etc. > > > > > > I imagine this to be the case... and another blow to Enginerds and > > >parts-level hobbyists not lucky enough to be near a Fry's or other > > >still-functioning small-quantity parts outlet. > > > > > > Experimenters: Time to stock up! > > > > > > If you live in the US (sorry John) then Digikey is pretty good at getting > > many of the parts you need. Between them, Mouser, and a few surplus places > > I can find everything I need for any given project. However, it is true > > that "hobbyist" electronics is quickly going to become a lot more > challenging. > > > > --Chuck > > > > > > Matthew Sell Programmer On Time Support, Inc. www.ontimesupport.com (281) 296-6066 Join the Metrology Software discussion group METLIST! http://www.ontimesupport.com/cgi-bin/mojo/mojo.cgi "One World, One Web, One Program" - Microsoft Promotional Ad "Ein Volk, Ein Reich, Ein Fuhrer" - Adolf Hitler Many thanks for this tagline to a fellow RGVAC'er... From foo at siconic.com Tue Nov 20 11:24:55 2001 From: foo at siconic.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:11:24 2005 Subject: Interesting find In-Reply-To: <001d01c171be$82d4e5c0$7937fea9@Guerney> Message-ID: On Tue, 20 Nov 2001, Phil wrote: > ....only in America. I've been on the lookout for any of the 98XX > series HP desktop "calculators" (most definitely computers), but here > "down-under", no such luck. I think it would be uneconomical to > freight one from the USA though :( Phil, Not really. Assuming it weighs 20lbs with packaging (probably an over-estimate) it would only cost US$41 to ship via the US Postal Service. Not too bad. Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org From zmerch at 30below.com Tue Nov 20 11:45:04 2001 From: zmerch at 30below.com (Roger Merchberger) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:11:24 2005 Subject: Radio Shack abandons components In-Reply-To: <3BFA7C22.CA356CC0@home.com> References: <20011120084534.F23837-100000@lepton.subatomix.com> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20011120124003.02c36630@mail.30below.com> Rumor has it that Neil Cherry may have mentioned these words: >"Jeffrey S. Sharp" wrote: > > > > On Tue, 20 Nov 2001, James L. Rice wrote: > > > > > my friend moved to a small town in Oklahoma, > > > > Unless he just really values the "don't use a turn signal 'cuz everyone > > knows where I'm goin'" small-town society, please send your friend my > > condolences. I've been there but managed to escape with (hopefully) more > > of my life ahead than behind. :-) Yes, but knowing that you 1) have only a few small-town teen hoodlums and you usually know what they're going to do before they do is a very nice feeling sometimes... Digi-key always seemed to expensive for my tastes -- at least for everything that I need, Mouser seems a lot less expensive & I can attest that they have *very* helpful and quite clueful staff, but when you need that *weird* part, JDR & Jameco seem to keep a lot of older stuff in stock... > > On the other hand, the cost of living in small-town Oklahoma is one of the > > cheapest in the USA. For a concrete example, in my old hometown, a nice > > 3750 ft^2 house with a huge property sold for US$70K. This means less > > money spent living, more money to spend on classiccmping, and greater ease > > in finding room to put all of it. Damn! I could actually *afford* that - but the only thing that comes close to big enough for me, the wife, 3 chilluns (& of course the computers) is a handyman's [wet]dream... >My wife an I have gotten pretty good at catalog shopping, so mail order >works well for us. I'm finding that most of the local stores (even the >malls) are selling lower quality items. Though I will say that Kmart has >made a vast improvement since Martha Stewart got involved. The only thing >we can't do mail order is food. I live in NJ and find that the area's >restaurants stay open until ~midnight and we have a varied menu to >choose from. I understand that Brooklyn has a more varied menu too. No! Nooooooo! Not the food thing again!!! >On the other note of piece meal components, I've found that with a lot of >imagination one can take advantage of today's uControllers to build some >of the coolest stuff. Processors cost ~$6, 3 pcbs (~2"x3") $50, add the >components and a single hand built board can cost <$100. PLD's, FPGA, etc. >etc.. Man do we live in interesting times (both good and bad). Yes we do. Roger "Merch" Merchberger From Golemancd at aol.com Tue Nov 20 11:45:44 2001 From: Golemancd at aol.com (Golemancd@aol.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:11:24 2005 Subject: panasonic hhc Message-ID: i was in a pawn shop a couple of years ago and the guy behind the counter had a calculator type deal on the counter and he just said i could have it. he said someone just left it there. it has a full keyboard with a small lcd and a printer attachment. panasonic hhc anyone know about this . joe From Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de Tue Nov 20 11:56:01 2001 From: Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de (Hans Franke) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:11:24 2005 Subject: panasonic hhc In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <3BFAA741.24992.FCAD95A4@localhost> > i was in a pawn shop a couple of years ago and the guy behind the > counter had a calculator type deal on the counter and he just said i could > have > it. he said someone just left it there. it has a full keyboard with a small > lcd > and a printer attachment. panasonic hhc > anyone know about this . No Lid ? Than its the 6502 HHC - a full fledged 6502 system. Basic in ROM etc. niche machine. Gruss H. -- VCF Europa 3.0 am 27./28. April 2002 in Muenchen http://www.vcfe.org/ From cisin at xenosoft.com Tue Nov 20 12:00:39 2001 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin (XenoSoft)) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:11:24 2005 Subject: 1771 chip brings $565 on EBAY? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: > Well, I accidentally plugged the chip in backward when troubleshooting the > floppy interface right after I got it. It turned out that the floppy > ribbon was bad, just due to age I guess. I don't think the chip let out > its magic smoke, but it certainly does not work now ;) A modest proposal: Since the chip collectors don't REALLY care whether tha chip is actually WORKING, ... So long as the escape of the magic smoke didn't leave any marks, save the electrically dead chips, and let the ship collectors have them. If the chip collectors would be willing to trade working common varieties of chips for dead rarer colors, ... C'mon guys, got a working common variety 1771 for Toth? Sellam: I checked through some of my junk, and couldn't find ANY dayglo yellow 8080s. Would other dayglo colors work? -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin@xenosoft.com NOTE: My ISP is having some problems. If you have difficulty reaching me at this e-mail address, you can leave a message at: fcisin@merritt.edu cisin@info.sims.berkeley.edu From univac2 at earthlink.net Tue Nov 20 12:05:31 2001 From: univac2 at earthlink.net (Owen Robertson) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:11:24 2005 Subject: Tandy 10 Info Wanted Message-ID: Does anyone know anything about the Tandy 10? It was Tandy/Radio Shack's larger microcomputer around the time the TRS-80 Model I came out. I found a picture of one in a book, and got kind of interested in it (partially a little home-town pride, being from Fort Worth). I can't find hardly any information about it on the internet. Thanks, Owen From Golemancd at aol.com Tue Nov 20 12:17:19 2001 From: Golemancd at aol.com (Golemancd@aol.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:11:24 2005 Subject: panasonic hhc Message-ID: <115.7f83d31.292bf82f@aol.com> hey thanks hans i pulled up a webb site on it mentioning the basic in rom wonder if if have that and how to program with it. i got about six chips with it. i cant find them right now but i think i may have thrown them out. silly me Joe. From Golemancd at aol.com Tue Nov 20 12:19:24 2001 From: Golemancd at aol.com (Golemancd@aol.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:11:24 2005 Subject: radio shack Message-ID: <29.1e09c533.292bf8ac@aol.com> am listening to a radio shack conference call from july on aol right now most of what they r talking about is parts sales and how that is there main business pride and joy. pillar of the business . hummm Joe From dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com Tue Nov 20 12:24:15 2001 From: dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com (Douglas Quebbeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:11:24 2005 Subject: Radio Shack abandons components Message-ID: <7A9BACCEF0171D4FB77019F5104CDD37225946@jeffserver.tegjeff.com> > Radio Shack has been slowly diminishing the individual parts and goin for > the glamour sales of consumer electronics mostly anymore. Won't be long and > the days of RS/Lafayette/Olson being in the nearby neighborhood strip malls > for those that want to "do it themselves" will be totally gone. Now you gone and done it. I'll be up all night reading my nearly 30-year old Lafayette catalogs tonight... I don't think any of the Olson catalogs survived. We never had a Lafayette store here, but we did have a Tape Centre that merged with Olson... -dq From dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com Tue Nov 20 12:26:08 2001 From: dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com (Douglas Quebbeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:11:24 2005 Subject: Radio Shack abandons components Message-ID: <7A9BACCEF0171D4FB77019F5104CDD37225947@jeffserver.tegjeff.com> > Digi-key always seemed to expensive for my tastes -- at least for > everything that I need, Mouser seems a lot less expensive & I can attest > that they have *very* helpful and quite clueful staff, but when you need > that *weird* part, JDR & Jameco seem to keep a lot of older stuff in stock... I love the way Digi-Key kits their parts. That plus, 7805 and 7812 regulators sold by Rat Shack have a tendency to pop quicker when presented with too-great a load... -dq From dmc!njc Tue Nov 20 12:44:54 2001 From: dmc!njc (dmc!njc) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:11:24 2005 Subject: Radio Shack abandons components In-Reply-To: <3BFA8D9C.35FDD510@jetnet.ab.ca> from "Ben Franchuk" at Nov 20, 2001 10:06:36 AM Message-ID: <200111201844.NAA04757@CC47532-A.ewndsr1.nj.home.com> Ben Franchuk > >Neil Cherry wrote: >> On the other note of piece meal components, I've found that with a lot of >> imagination one can take advantage of today's uControllers to build some >> of the coolest stuff. Processors cost ~$6, 3 pcbs (~2"x3") $50, add the >> components and a single hand built board can cost <$100. PLD's, FPGA, etc. >> etc.. Man do we live in interesting times (both good and bad). > >But one problem is that almost all real I/O is handled by hard to >find semi-custiom chips - PC motherboards come to mind. Many of the >older I/O devices are too slow to be of value. Ben Franchuk. This is, of course, too true. We can emulate them with the FPGA's but you have to understand how they work. I've been doing some creative work with alternate parts but I haven't had time to sit down with the really powerful chips. So little time so many projects. -- Linux Home Automation Neil Cherry ncherry@home.net http://members.home.net/ncherry (Text only) http://linuxha.sourceforge.net/ (SourceForge) http://hcs.sourceforge.net/ (HCS II) From menadeau at mediaone.net Tue Nov 20 12:34:58 2001 From: menadeau at mediaone.net (Michael Nadeau) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:11:24 2005 Subject: Tandy 10 Info Wanted References: Message-ID: <160e01c171f2$138b38c0$0b01a8c0@ValuedCustomer> The only information I have on it is that it was made for Tandy by another unidentified company. The system was built into a desk and sold only at the Tandy Center store in Fort Worth. It had dual 8-inch floppies and sold for just under $10,000. There's a photo of one in the August 1986 issue of 80 Micro. --Mike Michael Nadeau Editorial Services 603-893-2379 ----- Original Message ----- From: "Owen Robertson" To: "Classic Computer Mailing List" Sent: Tuesday, November 20, 2001 1:05 PM Subject: Tandy 10 Info Wanted > Does anyone know anything about the Tandy 10? It was Tandy/Radio Shack's > larger microcomputer around the time the TRS-80 Model I came out. I found a > picture of one in a book, and got kind of interested in it (partially a > little home-town pride, being from Fort Worth). I can't find hardly any > information about it on the internet. > > Thanks, > Owen > > From jrice at texoma.net Tue Nov 20 13:06:49 2001 From: jrice at texoma.net (James L. Rice) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:11:24 2005 Subject: Radio Shack abandons components References: <20011120084534.F23837-100000@lepton.subatomix.com> <5.1.0.14.2.20011120124003.02c36630@mail.30below.com> Message-ID: <3BFAA9C9.2050709@texoma.net> Housing cost do vary a lot. My old house, now my ex-wifes house was about 20 years old, was 2700ft^2 on a large lot about 60 miles from Dallas, and cost $95k. My current house is 20 minutes from downtown Dallas on a lake shore, 3300ft^2 on a tiny lot and cost me $242k to build year before last. But if I was to move farther away I would burn up the savings on commuting costs. >> > On the other hand, the cost of living in small-town Oklahoma is one >> of the >> > cheapest in the USA. For a concrete example, in my old hometown, a >> nice >> > 3750 ft^2 house with a huge property sold for US$70K. This means less >> > money spent living, more money to spend on classiccmping, and >> greater ease >> > in finding room to put all of it. > > From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Tue Nov 20 11:56:34 2001 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (Allison) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:11:24 2005 Subject: 1771 floppy controller questions Message-ID: <000001c171f7$d0248680$6b7b7b7b@ajp> Intel never did a 1771 compatable chip. They did do the 8271 that was FM only but totally incompatable with the 1771 socket. The second source that did ship parts is SMC. The other supplier was National Semi. NEC Started with the D372, that was a hard/soft sector single density controller that did find it's way into the first version of the IMSAI floppy controller. Allison -----Original Message----- From: Richard Erlacher To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org Date: Tuesday, November 20, 2001 12:05 PM Subject: Re: 1771 floppy controller questions >I don't know right offhand of any second sources, except for Intel, which did, >IIRC, make a 1771-equivalent/compatible for a time. They went the NEC route >when MFM became popular, however. > >WD also made a 1781 which was M2FM capable, and, as some folks will tell you, >THAT's a hard modulation scheme to support. > >As I mentioned before, it might be worthwhile to communicate with Tony Duell >regarding the expansion interface, as he recently admitted he'd actually made >the model-1 disk interface work as it was designed to work. A lot of folks >couldn't get reasonable reliability until they bought a third-party enhancment >for the floppy interface. > >Dick > >----- Original Message ----- >From: "Tothwolf" >To: >Sent: Tuesday, November 20, 2001 8:51 AM >Subject: Re: 1771 floppy controller questions > > >> On Tue, 20 Nov 2001, Richard Erlacher wrote: >> > From: "Tothwolf" >> > > On Tue, 20 Nov 2001, Richard Erlacher wrote: >> > > >> > > > What is it that makes you believe that the 1771 s the problem? >> > > >> > > Well, I accidentally plugged the chip in backward when troubleshooting the >> > > floppy interface right after I got it. It turned out that the floppy >> > > ribbon was bad, just due to age I guess. I don't think the chip let out >> > > its magic smoke, but it certainly does not work now ;) >> > >> > OK ... I can believe you'd reach that conclusion from what you describe. >I've >> > done that on one of those "late nights" on more than one occasion. It's >> > reasonable to assume the part is toast, given that there are several >supplies, >> > each of which has been applied to the wrong pins. Too bad ... >> >> I'm really not too worried about it, since the 1771 does seem to be >> available and I have the technical reference book for the expansion >> interface. I don't think there are any unusual or proprietary chips used >> in the expansion interface with the exception of the floppy controller. If >> it took out any other logic chips with it, I should be able to replace >> those easily. >> >> It appears that my local vendor may have just assumed the part he has in >> stock is a National, since I can't find any references to National ever >> manufacturing a 1771, and the -B01 is a WD suffix. >> >> -Toth >> >> > From edick at idcomm.com Tue Nov 20 13:29:45 2001 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:11:24 2005 Subject: OT: paging MAC expert(s) --- What's a Performa? References: <3B55D7F383B0D31197D9009027541CBF1170DEAF@cmiexch1.cmi.itds.com> Message-ID: <001801c171f9$b631d8c0$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> It's the "quite a bit of extra work" that concerns me, as the boys at M$ haven't managed to do it right yet, and they've been at it to the tune of 100K man hours per year for a decade or so. Recording a bitwise image of what you receive from the disk may or may not give you all the information you need to recreate the files, since you may or may not know how the OS deals with them. What's more, in order to make a complete record of the drive, you have to record every bit it has on it and save them as a single unit, since you don't know what the drive does with the data you send it. That's the same reason, BTW, why the drive to which you write such an image must be an EXACT duplicate of the one from which the image was recorded. The second drive may otherwise claim to be identical but have a different number of sectors per physical track, use different mapping arrangements, etc, and, especially, have different bad blocks. Since you're going to send data that goes to where the drive sends it and not necessarily to the same physical location from which you got it because the drive may use different modulation, servo coding, etc, and therefore may have a different number of sectors per track in the region of the drive to which the data is sent, you may be disappointed with the results because IDE drives hide too many details from the end-user. Depending on the level of the interface you use, you may not be able to use image recording at all. Further, if you don't know absolutely for certain, what the drive does with the data you send it, and what the OS does to process data to and from the drive, you're on thin ice. I'd not recommend using image recording with a later generation IDE drive at all. Since SCSI is well established as to how it operates its data management, it yields more hope that you can process an image, though the vagaries of the OS are still a limiting factor. Image recording should work fine with MFM- and RLL-encoded drives, even on a track-by-track basis, and those offer some hope that one could substitute one sort of drive for another but hte ones which use BOTH CHS and LBA addressing won't tolerate the sort of operations to which an incrementally developed OS like Windows could create. Dick ----- Original Message ----- From: "Christopher Smith" To: Sent: Tuesday, November 20, 2001 10:07 AM Subject: RE: OT: paging MAC expert(s) --- What's a Performa? > > -----Original Message----- > > From: Richard Erlacher [mailto:edick@idcomm.com] > > > medium, and subsequently writing them back to a physically > > identical (not just > > logically identical) target, without consideration for > > Why not just logically identical, then? ... assuming, of course, the same > o/s would handle devices which are logically identical in an identical > manner. (This may not be a safe assumption) > > [snip] > > > The bitwise image transfer from disk=>tape can be done > > without knowledge of > > either the compression scheme or of the OS/file system used > > on it. It does > > require, however, that the entire image be recorded so it can > > be restored in its > > entirety. The result is that you can use a different OS to > > do that task though > > it's not required, and the penalty is that you have no access > > to the file data, > > though you could, I guess, go to the trouble of deciphering > > the bitwise image > > into a logical file system if one originally existed. You > > can do that under any > > circumstances, but it's a lot of trouble and requires you > > know a great deal > > about the low-level processes of converting the data on the > > orginal drive into > > the files comprising it. > > I think you've just summed up my previous point. That being, of course, > that if you can record a bit-by-bit image, you should also be able to > interpret this image (with quite a bit of extra work), and find the > component files. In fact, I'd add that depending on the amount of extra > work you're willing to do, you can likely restore the image in a "logical" > fashion to a volume that is completely different from the one on which it > originally resided. > > Regards, > > Chris > > > > Christopher Smith, Perl Developer > Amdocs - Champaign, IL > > /usr/bin/perl -e ' > print((~"\x95\xc4\xe3"^"Just Another Perl Hacker.")."\x08!\n"); > ' > > > From edick at idcomm.com Tue Nov 20 13:30:28 2001 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:11:24 2005 Subject: Radio Shack abandons components References: <3BFA6144.2080309@texoma.net> <3BFA6468.90507@texoma.net> <035d01c171e5$e113b860$8a0101ac@ibm23xhr06> Message-ID: <001e01c171f9$cffdd9c0$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> TechAmerica is now RadioShack.com Dick ----- Original Message ----- From: "John Allain" To: Sent: Tuesday, November 20, 2001 10:07 AM Subject: Re: Radio Shack abandons components > > Re: Radio Shack abandons components > > Did TechAmerica (I think that was a RatShack > business) make it? That would be an OK way to > transition that business and enhance it at the same > time. Has everyone seen the catalog? More kit > builds than any I've seen in the past 20 years. > > > > Sorry for the typos. I broke a couple of fingers this week. > > Hard to type with fingers taped together (James L. Rice) > > I hope this wasn't from wedging heavy things into 19" racks!* > Best wishes in any case. > > John A. > Or from paired Alnico voice coil magnets. > Or from belts for 8" drives. > Or from ...... > > > From foo at siconic.com Tue Nov 20 13:46:11 2001 From: foo at siconic.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:11:24 2005 Subject: Tandy 10 Info Wanted In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Tue, 20 Nov 2001, Owen Robertson wrote: > Does anyone know anything about the Tandy 10? It was Tandy/Radio > Shack's larger microcomputer around the time the TRS-80 Model I came > out. I found a picture of one in a book, and got kind of interested in > it (partially a little home-town pride, being from Fort Worth). I > can't find hardly any information about it on the internet. I vaguely recall a discussion in the early days of ClassicCmp (perhaps the first year) about the Tandy 10. Try searching the archives at http://www.classiccmp.org/ to see if anything turns up. Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org From edick at idcomm.com Tue Nov 20 13:51:38 2001 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:11:24 2005 Subject: radio shack References: <29.1e09c533.292bf8ac@aol.com> Message-ID: <004601c171fc$c4d56060$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> Back when the US was the only country manufacturing flat panel displays, heavily depending on GOV support, a GOV investigation panel contacted an exec at HP regarding their need for flat panel (LCD) display devices. (this was in the late '70's, IIRC) What wast told to the GOV investigator was that HP did not use LCD or flat-panel display technology then, nor would they ever do so, as they were a leading maker of LED display products. Within 6 weeks, HP started using LCD's in their battery-operated calculators and on an entire line of laboratory devices. Unfortunately, the flat-panel technology was not exploited in the US until the Japanese started offering them to the US. Another example of senior management not knowing what's going on. Clearly this is another case of the same sort of thing. The retail space is certainly worth more than what it's bringing in as parts sales these days. They still don't sell tools for handling surface mount devices, nor do they sell the devices, and nearly nothing uses the old DIP packages any longer. I doubt that parts sales have been a "pillar of the business" for over a decade, since it was nearly impossible to find out what a part really was, in terms of industry standard part number. Moreover, it's a famous problem getting a part at Radio Shack by asking for a "74LS244" even though every store had them in a blister pack on the rack. That suggests that they really didn't want that business anyway. Dick ----- Original Message ----- From: To: Sent: Tuesday, November 20, 2001 11:19 AM Subject: radio shack > am listening to a radio shack conference call from july on aol right now > most of what they r talking about is parts sales and how that is there main > business pride and joy. pillar of the business . > > hummm > Joe > > From edick at idcomm.com Tue Nov 20 13:59:15 2001 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:11:24 2005 Subject: Radio Shack abandons components References: <200111201844.NAA04757@CC47532-A.ewndsr1.nj.home.com> Message-ID: <005001c171fd$d6080940$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> If you want to translate a schematic from the old TTL SSI/MSI devices to a programmable device in a dense package, it's much more likely to happen easily in a CPLD than an FPGA, though people keep telling me that FPGA's provide more logic at lower cost. I agree that it's more difficult to make it happen in FPGA, but for a circuit the size of a Multibus-1 or (somewhat smaller) S-100 board, a moderately priced CPLD should get the job done pretty well, though they used enough one-shots to complicate the job considerably. With device pin-pitch at 20-25 mils, (actually the metric equivalent) it's unlikely one will hand wire anything with them. Therefore one's limited to using PCB mounted parts. Since disposal of PCB-related materials is so costly these days, it's unlikely one will want to do that at home. What this leaves is a need for an adapter for some fairly standard-packaged-CPLD and/or FPGA, and then simply work within the confines of what one can have made up by way of an adapter from that package to something that one can hand-wire or wire-wrap. Dick ----- Original Message ----- From: To: Sent: Tuesday, November 20, 2001 11:44 AM Subject: Re: Radio Shack abandons components > Ben Franchuk > > > >Neil Cherry wrote: > >> On the other note of piece meal components, I've found that with a lot of > >> imagination one can take advantage of today's uControllers to build some > >> of the coolest stuff. Processors cost ~$6, 3 pcbs (~2"x3") $50, add the > >> components and a single hand built board can cost <$100. PLD's, FPGA, etc. > >> etc.. Man do we live in interesting times (both good and bad). > > > > >But one problem is that almost all real I/O is handled by hard to > >find semi-custiom chips - PC motherboards come to mind. Many of the > >older I/O devices are too slow to be of value. Ben Franchuk. > > This is, of course, too true. We can emulate them with the FPGA's but > you have to understand how they work. I've been doing some creative > work with alternate parts but I haven't had time to sit down with the > really powerful chips. So little time so many projects. > > -- > Linux Home Automation Neil Cherry ncherry@home.net > http://members.home.net/ncherry (Text only) > http://linuxha.sourceforge.net/ (SourceForge) > http://hcs.sourceforge.net/ (HCS II) > > From tothwolf at concentric.net Tue Nov 20 14:01:07 2001 From: tothwolf at concentric.net (Tothwolf) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:11:24 2005 Subject: 1771 chip brings $565 on EBAY? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Tue, 20 Nov 2001, Fred Cisin (XenoSoft) wrote: > > Well, I accidentally plugged the chip in backward when troubleshooting the > > floppy interface right after I got it. It turned out that the floppy > > ribbon was bad, just due to age I guess. I don't think the chip let out > > its magic smoke, but it certainly does not work now ;) > > A modest proposal: > Since the chip collectors don't REALLY care whether tha chip is actually > WORKING, ... > So long as the escape of the magic smoke didn't leave any marks, save the > electrically dead chips, and let the ship collectors have them. > > If the chip collectors would be willing to trade working common varieties > of chips for dead rarer colors, ... > C'mon guys, got a working common variety 1771 for Toth? Eh...my dead chip isn't in good shape, it got hot enough to almost totally erase its markings. I think quite a few of the pins got broken off after I tossed the dead chip in the junk box too. I just can't see someone wanting a dead 1771 w/ faint markings and broken pins...I guess it would look ok if it were glued to something and had some clear coat applied to the top to make the writing show up again ;P -Toth From edick at idcomm.com Tue Nov 20 14:02:12 2001 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:11:24 2005 Subject: 1771 floppy controller questions References: <000001c171f7$d0248680$6b7b7b7b@ajp> Message-ID: <005801c171fe$404cee60$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> Yeah ... I wasn't sure about that, though I know they sold their Intel-numbered version of the WD HDC chips (1010 and 2010). Didn't NEC also make a uPD371 that was for small tape drives? I know they made something on that order, but I never got to play with them. Dick ----- Original Message ----- From: "Allison" To: Sent: Tuesday, November 20, 2001 10:56 AM Subject: Re: 1771 floppy controller questions > Intel never did a 1771 compatable chip. They did do the 8271 that was > FM only but totally incompatable with the 1771 socket. > > The second source that did ship parts is SMC. The other supplier was > National Semi. > > NEC Started with the D372, that was a hard/soft sector single density > controller that did find it's way into the first version of the IMSAI floppy > controller. > > Allison > > -----Original Message----- > From: Richard Erlacher > To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org > Date: Tuesday, November 20, 2001 12:05 PM > Subject: Re: 1771 floppy controller questions > > > >I don't know right offhand of any second sources, except for Intel, which > did, > >IIRC, make a 1771-equivalent/compatible for a time. They went the NEC > route > >when MFM became popular, however. > > > >WD also made a 1781 which was M2FM capable, and, as some folks will tell > you, > >THAT's a hard modulation scheme to support. > > > >As I mentioned before, it might be worthwhile to communicate with Tony > Duell > >regarding the expansion interface, as he recently admitted he'd actually > made > >the model-1 disk interface work as it was designed to work. A lot of > folks > >couldn't get reasonable reliability until they bought a third-party > enhancment > >for the floppy interface. > > > >Dick > > > >----- Original Message ----- > >From: "Tothwolf" > >To: > >Sent: Tuesday, November 20, 2001 8:51 AM > >Subject: Re: 1771 floppy controller questions > > > > > >> On Tue, 20 Nov 2001, Richard Erlacher wrote: > >> > From: "Tothwolf" > >> > > On Tue, 20 Nov 2001, Richard Erlacher wrote: > >> > > > >> > > > What is it that makes you believe that the 1771 s the problem? > >> > > > >> > > Well, I accidentally plugged the chip in backward when > troubleshooting the > >> > > floppy interface right after I got it. It turned out that the floppy > >> > > ribbon was bad, just due to age I guess. I don't think the chip let > out > >> > > its magic smoke, but it certainly does not work now ;) > >> > > >> > OK ... I can believe you'd reach that conclusion from what you > describe. > >I've > >> > done that on one of those "late nights" on more than one occasion. > It's > >> > reasonable to assume the part is toast, given that there are several > >supplies, > >> > each of which has been applied to the wrong pins. Too bad ... > >> > >> I'm really not too worried about it, since the 1771 does seem to be > >> available and I have the technical reference book for the expansion > >> interface. I don't think there are any unusual or proprietary chips used > >> in the expansion interface with the exception of the floppy controller. > If > >> it took out any other logic chips with it, I should be able to replace > >> those easily. > >> > >> It appears that my local vendor may have just assumed the part he has in > >> stock is a National, since I can't find any references to National ever > >> manufacturing a 1771, and the -B01 is a WD suffix. > >> > >> -Toth > >> > >> > > > > From tothwolf at concentric.net Tue Nov 20 14:05:33 2001 From: tothwolf at concentric.net (Tothwolf) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:11:24 2005 Subject: Preserving old literature (was: Re: Tandy 10 Info Wanted) In-Reply-To: <160e01c171f2$138b38c0$0b01a8c0@ValuedCustomer> Message-ID: On Tue, 20 Nov 2001, Michael Nadeau wrote: > The only information I have on it is that it was made for Tandy by another > unidentified company. The system was built into a desk and sold only at the > Tandy Center store in Fort Worth. It had dual 8-inch floppies and sold for > just under $10,000. There's a photo of one in the August 1986 issue of 80 > Micro. Speaking of 80 Micro...has anyone scanned the issues from 1980-1983? I have a collection covering all of 1980-1982, and about 1/4th of '83 (starting with issue #1). I haven't yet scanned anything since I am unsure about how to do so w/o damaging them. -Toth From stanb at dial.pipex.com Tue Nov 20 02:55:17 2001 From: stanb at dial.pipex.com (Stan Barr) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:11:24 2005 Subject: OT: paging MAC expert(s) --- What's a Performa? In-Reply-To: Your message of "Mon, 19 Nov 2001 14:33:42 MST." <001801c17141$dca07240$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> Message-ID: <200111200855.IAA29953@citadel.metropolis.local> > Well, I hope it's documented. At least there's a NETSCRAPE for DUMMIES book I > can give someone for Christmas. How difficult is it to learn this iCab? I > don't want to have to learn it in order to teach someone else. Is it pretty > intuitive? (that way I can answer questions on the phone and have some chance > of guessing right.) It works pretty much the same as Netscape, just looks a bit different, (especially if you install alternave buttons etc.) - nothing you can't easily understand from a litle Netscape experience. Now Cyberdog - that *was* different ;-) -- Cheers, Stan Barr stanb@dial.pipex.com The future was never like this! From jhellige at earthlink.net Tue Nov 20 14:19:40 2001 From: jhellige at earthlink.net (Jeff Hellige) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:11:24 2005 Subject: Radio Shack abandons components In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: >I live just north of Fort Worth, and the big Radio Shack "Outlet Store". >They have a lot of discontinued things, and a lot of components. I assume >they'll always have them. I've noticed that even the 'bargain bin' area that used to be tucked back in one corner of most stores seems to be gone as well. Used to be able to get some cool older discontinued stuff from that section, including Model 2000 stuff. Unfortunately I also passed on a portable disk drive in the same area at one point. Jeff -- Home of the TRS-80 Model 2000 FAQ File http://www.cchaven.com http://www.geocities.com/siliconvalley/lakes/6757 From csmith at amdocs.com Tue Nov 20 14:28:18 2001 From: csmith at amdocs.com (Christopher Smith) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:11:24 2005 Subject: OT: paging MAC expert(s) --- What's a Performa? Message-ID: <3B55D7F383B0D31197D9009027541CBF1170DEB4@cmiexch1.cmi.itds.com> > -----Original Message----- > From: Richard Erlacher [mailto:edick@idcomm.com] > It's the "quite a bit of extra work" that concerns me, as the > boys at M$ haven't > managed to do it right yet, and they've been at it to the > tune of 100K man hours > per year for a decade or so. Recording a bitwise image of Well, I haven't got much faith in them to begin with. They could work for 1000 years on a 20 minute job and still mess it up. I'm not saying that it might not actually take that long, just that m$ aren't competent enough to be a good indicator. > what you receive from > the disk may or may not give you all the information you need > to recreate the > files, since you may or may not know how the OS deals with > them. What's more, I was assuming you'd know the filesystem type at the time of the backup. I don't suppose it would be absolutely necessary. You might also recognize a filesystem by magic number/signature, or the like. [snip] > which you write such an image must be an EXACT duplicate of > the one from which > the image was recorded. The second drive may otherwise claim > to be identical > but have a different number of sectors per physical track, > use different mapping > arrangements, etc, and, especially, have different bad > blocks. Since you're Well, "otherwise identical" is dangerous territory at any rate. :) You're right, though, in that depending on the way the software components interact with the drive, one or more of these things might really screw things up. I suppose that would require one to know the internals of each system with which you plan to use this method. > going to send data that goes to where the drive sends it and > not necessarily to > the same physical location from which you got it because the ... which may be ok, depending on how the system interacts with the device in question. Of course, if you find that the system depends on the data being in some physical location, rather than in a logical location, you'd have to correct for that or _just not do it_ ;) [snip] > sent, you may be disappointed with the results because IDE > drives hide too many > details from the end-user. Yep. Tell me about it. [snip] > absolutely for certain, what > the drive does with the data you send it, and what the OS > does to process data > to and from the drive, you're on thin ice. That depends. For instance (This will now get very hypothetical), if the O/S handles data in logical blocks, and doesn't care too much the actual geometry of the drive, you might be ok with not knowing about the device. That is, with the exception of bad blocks. (Really I guess I'm talking about faking a standard interface even when it doesn't exist here) [snip] > all. Since SCSI is well established as to how it operates > its data management, > it yields more hope that you can process an image, though the > vagaries of the OS > are still a limiting factor. On the other hand, as some friends of mine are wont to say: "Neither S in SCSI means standard." > Image recording should work fine with MFM- and RLL-encoded > drives, even on a > track-by-track basis, and those offer some hope that one > could substitute one > sort of drive for another but hte ones which use BOTH CHS and > LBA addressing > won't tolerate the sort of operations to which an > incrementally developed OS > like Windows could create. Can't argue with that. Chris Christopher Smith, Perl Developer Amdocs - Champaign, IL /usr/bin/perl -e ' print((~"\x95\xc4\xe3"^"Just Another Perl Hacker.")."\x08!\n"); ' From menadeau at mediaone.net Tue Nov 20 14:26:32 2001 From: menadeau at mediaone.net (Michael Nadeau) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:11:24 2005 Subject: Preserving old literature (was: Re: Tandy 10 Info Wanted) References: Message-ID: <164001c17201$aaa5a240$0b01a8c0@ValuedCustomer> If I were to do it, I'd sacrifice a less-than-pristine copy for the cause--not an option if you don't have a duplicate, of course. Scanning some of those bigger issues without taking them apart is near impossible (I've tried), and there's no way to reassemble the magazine. --Mike Michael Nadeau Editorial Services 603-893-2379 ----- Original Message ----- From: "Tothwolf" To: Sent: Tuesday, November 20, 2001 3:05 PM Subject: Preserving old literature (was: Re: Tandy 10 Info Wanted) > On Tue, 20 Nov 2001, Michael Nadeau wrote: > > > The only information I have on it is that it was made for Tandy by another > > unidentified company. The system was built into a desk and sold only at the > > Tandy Center store in Fort Worth. It had dual 8-inch floppies and sold for > > just under $10,000. There's a photo of one in the August 1986 issue of 80 > > Micro. > > Speaking of 80 Micro...has anyone scanned the issues from 1980-1983? I > have a collection covering all of 1980-1982, and about 1/4th of '83 > (starting with issue #1). I haven't yet scanned anything since I am unsure > about how to do so w/o damaging them. > > -Toth > > From dmc!njc Tue Nov 20 14:48:41 2001 From: dmc!njc (dmc!njc) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:11:24 2005 Subject: Radio Shack abandons components In-Reply-To: <005001c171fd$d6080940$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> from "Richard Erlacher" at Nov 20, 2001 12:59:15 PM Message-ID: <200111202048.PAA05415@CC47532-A.ewndsr1.nj.home.com> Richard Erlacher > >If you want to translate a schematic from the old TTL SSI/MSI devices to a >programmable device in a dense package, it's much more likely to happen easily >in a CPLD than an FPGA, though people keep telling me that FPGA's provide more >logic at lower cost. I agree that it's more difficult to make it happen in >FPGA, but for a circuit the size of a Multibus-1 or (somewhat smaller) S-100 >board, a moderately priced CPLD should get the job done pretty well, though they >used enough one-shots to complicate the job considerably. > >With device pin-pitch at 20-25 mils, (actually the metric equivalent) it's >unlikely one will hand wire anything with them. Therefore one's limited to >using PCB mounted parts. Since disposal of PCB-related materials is so costly >these days, it's unlikely one will want to do that at home. What this leaves is >a need for an adapter for some fairly standard-packaged-CPLD and/or FPGA, and >then simply work within the confines of what one can have made up by way of an >adapter from that package to something that one can hand-wire or wire-wrap. Actually I'm about to attempt to learn hwo to do just that, hand solder qfp chips to a carrier board with DIP header endings. I have an eZ80 that I want to brain transplant into a spare HCS II (uses a Z180). I've checked out Don Lancasters page on how to build your own smt hot air iron and may attempt it this winter. I'll start by working on low cost parts and work up from there. -- Linux Home Automation Neil Cherry ncherry@home.net http://members.home.net/ncherry (Text only) http://linuxha.sourceforge.net/ (SourceForge) http://hcs.sourceforge.net/ (HCS II) From dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com Tue Nov 20 14:49:41 2001 From: dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com (Douglas Quebbeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:11:24 2005 Subject: OT: paging MAC expert(s) --- What's a Performa? Message-ID: <7A9BACCEF0171D4FB77019F5104CDD3722594D@jeffserver.tegjeff.com> > It works pretty much the same as Netscape, just looks a bit different, > (especially if you install alternave buttons etc.) - nothing you can't > easily understand from a litle Netscape experience. > > Now Cyberdog - that *was* different ;-) And still is. I've got it running on the WGS8150/80 sitting behind me. But Cyberdog could well rise again, under Windows... As you know, Cyberdog was essentially a container for a series of net-enabled OpenDoc components. While Microsoft has still never released the OpenDoc-killing Cairo OS they'd promised, Apple and IBM did stop development of OpenDoc; meantime, Micro- soft continued to develop the Component Object model enough that a certain third-party is going to take advantage of it big-time. The party is Stardock, and the product is DesktopX. The next generation of DesktopX will provide a framework for the use and development of COM objects directly by the user. With DesktopX, it'll be almost trivial to recreate Cyberdog using COM (and ActiveX components) instead of OpenDoc. I'll stop there since I'm drifting OT... -dq From spectre at stockholm.ptloma.edu Tue Nov 20 15:03:29 2001 From: spectre at stockholm.ptloma.edu (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:11:24 2005 Subject: OT: paging MAC expert(s) --- What's a Performa? In-Reply-To: <3B55D7F383B0D31197D9009027541CBF1170DEA9@cmiexch1.cmi.itds.com> from Christopher Smith at "Nov 20, 1 09:29:04 am" Message-ID: <200111202103.NAA07998@stockholm.ptloma.edu> > There's at least one worm that takes advantage of a Quicktime feature (why > on earth did they put this in Quicktime?!) that will automatically run some > program on a volume when the volume is mounted. Don't remember the name of > this "feature," but it is akin to the windows "autorun," and just as bad. Easily turned off for the modern Mac users in the audience; go to Control Panels, QuickTime Settings; select AutoPlay from the drop-down box; uncheck Enable CD-ROM Autoplay. It is still in QuickTime as of 5.0.2, alas. -- ----------------------------- personal page: http://www.armory.com/~spectre/ -- Cameron Kaiser, Point Loma Nazarene University * ckaiser@stockholm.ptloma.edu -- The things which hurt, instruct. -- Benjamin Franklin ---------------------- From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Tue Nov 20 15:22:21 2001 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (Allison) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:11:24 2005 Subject: 1771 floppy controller questions Message-ID: <001c01c17209$738431c0$6b7b7b7b@ajp> Yes, I have a few of them. the part is nearly the same as the 372 with some minor tweeks and differences. Allison -----Original Message----- From: Richard Erlacher To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org Date: Tuesday, November 20, 2001 3:27 PM Subject: Re: 1771 floppy controller questions >Yeah ... I wasn't sure about that, though I know they sold their Intel-numbered >version of the WD HDC chips (1010 and 2010). > >Didn't NEC also make a uPD371 that was for small tape drives? I know they made >something on that order, but I never got to play with them. > >Dick > >----- Original Message ----- >From: "Allison" >To: >Sent: Tuesday, November 20, 2001 10:56 AM >Subject: Re: 1771 floppy controller questions > > >> Intel never did a 1771 compatable chip. They did do the 8271 that was >> FM only but totally incompatable with the 1771 socket. >> >> The second source that did ship parts is SMC. The other supplier was >> National Semi. >> >> NEC Started with the D372, that was a hard/soft sector single density >> controller that did find it's way into the first version of the IMSAI floppy >> controller. >> >> Allison >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: Richard Erlacher >> To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org >> Date: Tuesday, November 20, 2001 12:05 PM >> Subject: Re: 1771 floppy controller questions >> >> >> >I don't know right offhand of any second sources, except for Intel, which >> did, >> >IIRC, make a 1771-equivalent/compatible for a time. They went the NEC >> route >> >when MFM became popular, however. >> > >> >WD also made a 1781 which was M2FM capable, and, as some folks will tell >> you, >> >THAT's a hard modulation scheme to support. >> > >> >As I mentioned before, it might be worthwhile to communicate with Tony >> Duell >> >regarding the expansion interface, as he recently admitted he'd actually >> made >> >the model-1 disk interface work as it was designed to work. A lot of >> folks >> >couldn't get reasonable reliability until they bought a third-party >> enhancment >> >for the floppy interface. >> > >> >Dick >> > >> >----- Original Message ----- >> >From: "Tothwolf" >> >To: >> >Sent: Tuesday, November 20, 2001 8:51 AM >> >Subject: Re: 1771 floppy controller questions >> > >> > >> >> On Tue, 20 Nov 2001, Richard Erlacher wrote: >> >> > From: "Tothwolf" >> >> > > On Tue, 20 Nov 2001, Richard Erlacher wrote: >> >> > > >> >> > > > What is it that makes you believe that the 1771 s the problem? >> >> > > >> >> > > Well, I accidentally plugged the chip in backward when >> troubleshooting the >> >> > > floppy interface right after I got it. It turned out that the floppy >> >> > > ribbon was bad, just due to age I guess. I don't think the chip let >> out >> >> > > its magic smoke, but it certainly does not work now ;) >> >> > >> >> > OK ... I can believe you'd reach that conclusion from what you >> describe. >> >I've >> >> > done that on one of those "late nights" on more than one occasion. >> It's >> >> > reasonable to assume the part is toast, given that there are several >> >supplies, >> >> > each of which has been applied to the wrong pins. Too bad ... >> >> >> >> I'm really not too worried about it, since the 1771 does seem to be >> >> available and I have the technical reference book for the expansion >> >> interface. I don't think there are any unusual or proprietary chips used >> >> in the expansion interface with the exception of the floppy controller. >> If >> >> it took out any other logic chips with it, I should be able to replace >> >> those easily. >> >> >> >> It appears that my local vendor may have just assumed the part he has in >> >> stock is a National, since I can't find any references to National ever >> >> manufacturing a 1771, and the -B01 is a WD suffix. >> >> >> >> -Toth >> >> >> >> >> > >> >> > > From mythtech at Mac.com Tue Nov 20 15:45:11 2001 From: mythtech at Mac.com (Chris) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:11:25 2005 Subject: Radio Shack abandons components Message-ID: <200111202145.PAA33600@opal.tseinc.com> > I've noticed that even the 'bargain bin' area that used to be >tucked back in one corner of most stores seems to be gone as well. >Used to be able to get some cool older discontinued stuff from that >section, including Model 2000 stuff. Unfortunately I also passed on >a portable disk drive in the same area at one point. One of the shacks near me still has that bin every year after christmas. It is nothing more than a big cardboard box full of broken or unpackaged items from the year. They also put all the unsold, or returned xmas gifts with it (which makes up a bulk of it, so is why I assume it shows up after xmas every year). -chris From jhellige at earthlink.net Tue Nov 20 16:26:53 2001 From: jhellige at earthlink.net (Jeff Hellige) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:11:25 2005 Subject: Radio Shack abandons components In-Reply-To: <200111202145.PAA33600@opal.tseinc.com> References: <200111202145.PAA33600@opal.tseinc.com> Message-ID: >One of the shacks near me still has that bin every year after christmas. >It is nothing more than a big cardboard box full of broken or unpackaged >items from the year. They also put all the unsold, or returned xmas gifts >with it (which makes up a bulk of it, so is why I assume it shows up >after xmas every year). The one's that I'm talking about though weren't just returned or damaged junk. I used to see them with quite a bit of computer stuff, mostly stock leftovers, such as cables, cards, and tech manuals. Once Tandy sold their computer stuff to AST, this type of stuff pretty much disappeared as time went by and forgotten stock was disposed of. There used to be some good bargains to be had in the 'used' sections of the ComputerCity stores as well. Jeff -- Home of the TRS-80 Model 2000 FAQ File http://www.cchaven.com http://www.geocities.com/siliconvalley/lakes/6757 From edick at idcomm.com Tue Nov 20 16:28:30 2001 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:11:25 2005 Subject: OT: paging MAC expert(s) --- What's a Performa? References: <200111200855.IAA29953@citadel.metropolis.local> Message-ID: <002b01c17212$aeb59c80$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> Well, that's good, but the ultimate end user has no Netscape experience, and I've got not even enough to be dangerous. I never liked Nestcape because you had to buy that %$#@! Trumpet Winsock to make it work, and that crapped up a lot of other Windows functions. Nevertheless, I want to take a look at iCab. If it works easily enough and lives in considerably less memory than Netscape, I'm all for it! Dick ----- Original Message ----- From: "Stan Barr" To: Sent: Tuesday, November 20, 2001 1:55 AM Subject: Re: OT: paging MAC expert(s) --- What's a Performa? > > Well, I hope it's documented. At least there's a NETSCRAPE for DUMMIES book I > > can give someone for Christmas. How difficult is it to learn this iCab? I > > don't want to have to learn it in order to teach someone else. Is it pretty > > intuitive? (that way I can answer questions on the phone and have some chance > > of guessing right.) > > It works pretty much the same as Netscape, just looks a bit different, > (especially if you install alternave buttons etc.) - nothing you can't > easily understand from a litle Netscape experience. > > Now Cyberdog - that *was* different ;-) > > -- > Cheers, > Stan Barr stanb@dial.pipex.com > > The future was never like this! > > > From edick at idcomm.com Tue Nov 20 16:35:39 2001 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:11:25 2005 Subject: OT: paging MAC expert(s) --- What's a Performa? References: <3B55D7F383B0D31197D9009027541CBF1170DEB4@cmiexch1.cmi.itds.com> Message-ID: <003701c17213$ae3c0a40$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> Well, remember that M$ is in the business of making money, which they seem to do really well. Lots of folks have drawn the erroneous conclusion that they're in the business of writing software. That's not the case. They're in the business of SELLING software. It's not their job to protect the consumer. It's the consumer's job to protect himself. The consumer's been falling down on the job, hence, he keeps on buying that Microsoft product line. If he were smart, he'd stick with the devil he partially knows, and let M$ go under. SO much for Billy-bashing ... I'd like to see someone write a chunk of software that does as much as this one in 20 minutes, BTW. I don't think something this size will even link in 20 minutes. Image recording was OK when one had a firm grasp of what the controller did with the bits from the drive and what the OS did with them afterward. That's no longer the case. In fact, so much wierd stuff goes on internally to the drive, since the controller function is dedicated on each drive, that it's hard to know what is different between two drives. Dick ----- Original Message ----- From: "Christopher Smith" To: Sent: Tuesday, November 20, 2001 1:28 PM Subject: RE: OT: paging MAC expert(s) --- What's a Performa? > > -----Original Message----- > > From: Richard Erlacher [mailto:edick@idcomm.com] > > > It's the "quite a bit of extra work" that concerns me, as the > > boys at M$ haven't > > managed to do it right yet, and they've been at it to the > > tune of 100K man hours > > per year for a decade or so. Recording a bitwise image of > > Well, I haven't got much faith in them to begin with. They could work for > 1000 years on a 20 minute job and still mess it up. I'm not saying that it > might not actually take that long, just that m$ aren't competent enough to > be a good indicator. > > > what you receive from > > the disk may or may not give you all the information you need > > to recreate the > > files, since you may or may not know how the OS deals with > > them. What's more, > > I was assuming you'd know the filesystem type at the time of the backup. I > don't suppose it would be absolutely necessary. You might also recognize a > filesystem by magic number/signature, or the like. > > [snip] > > > which you write such an image must be an EXACT duplicate of > > the one from which > > the image was recorded. The second drive may otherwise claim > > to be identical > > but have a different number of sectors per physical track, > > use different mapping > > arrangements, etc, and, especially, have different bad > > blocks. Since you're > > Well, "otherwise identical" is dangerous territory at any rate. :) You're > right, though, in that depending on the way the software components interact > with the drive, one or more of these things might really screw things up. I > suppose that would require one to know the internals of each system with > which you plan to use this method. > > > going to send data that goes to where the drive sends it and > > not necessarily to > > the same physical location from which you got it because the > > ... which may be ok, depending on how the system interacts with the device > in question. Of course, if you find that the system depends on the data > being in some physical location, rather than in a logical location, you'd > have to correct for that or _just not do it_ ;) > > [snip] > > > sent, you may be disappointed with the results because IDE > > drives hide too many > > details from the end-user. > > Yep. Tell me about it. > > [snip] > > > absolutely for certain, what > > the drive does with the data you send it, and what the OS > > does to process data > > to and from the drive, you're on thin ice. > > That depends. For instance (This will now get very hypothetical), if the > O/S handles data in logical blocks, and doesn't care too much the actual > geometry of the drive, you might be ok with not knowing about the device. > That is, with the exception of bad blocks. (Really I guess I'm talking > about faking a standard interface even when it doesn't exist here) > > [snip] > > > all. Since SCSI is well established as to how it operates > > its data management, > > it yields more hope that you can process an image, though the > > vagaries of the OS > > are still a limiting factor. > > On the other hand, as some friends of mine are wont to say: "Neither S in > SCSI means standard." > > > Image recording should work fine with MFM- and RLL-encoded > > drives, even on a > > track-by-track basis, and those offer some hope that one > > could substitute one > > sort of drive for another but hte ones which use BOTH CHS and > > LBA addressing > > won't tolerate the sort of operations to which an > > incrementally developed OS > > like Windows could create. > > Can't argue with that. > > Chris > > Christopher Smith, Perl Developer > Amdocs - Champaign, IL > > /usr/bin/perl -e ' > print((~"\x95\xc4\xe3"^"Just Another Perl Hacker.")."\x08!\n"); > ' > > > From pcw at mesanet.com Tue Nov 20 15:35:47 2001 From: pcw at mesanet.com (Peter C. Wallace) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:11:25 2005 Subject: Radio Shack abandons components In-Reply-To: <200111202048.PAA05415@CC47532-A.ewndsr1.nj.home.com> Message-ID: On Tue, 20 Nov 2001 dmc!njc@opal.tseinc.com wrote: > Richard Erlacher > > > >If you want to translate a schematic from the old TTL SSI/MSI devices to a > >programmable device in a dense package, it's much more likely to happen easily > >in a CPLD than an FPGA, though people keep telling me that FPGA's provide more > >logic at lower cost. I agree that it's more difficult to make it happen in > >FPGA, but for a circuit the size of a Multibus-1 or (somewhat smaller) S-100 > >board, a moderately priced CPLD should get the job done pretty well, though they > >used enough one-shots to complicate the job considerably. > > > >With device pin-pitch at 20-25 mils, (actually the metric equivalent) it's > >unlikely one will hand wire anything with them. Therefore one's limited to > >using PCB mounted parts. Since disposal of PCB-related materials is so costly > >these days, it's unlikely one will want to do that at home. What this leaves is > >a need for an adapter for some fairly standard-packaged-CPLD and/or FPGA, and > >then simply work within the confines of what one can have made up by way of an > >adapter from that package to something that one can hand-wire or wire-wrap. > > Actually I'm about to attempt to learn hwo to do just that, hand > solder qfp chips to a carrier board with DIP header endings. I have an > eZ80 that I want to brain transplant into a spare HCS II (uses a > Z180). I've checked out Don Lancasters page on how to build your own > smt hot air iron and may attempt it this winter. I'll start by working > on low cost parts and work up from there. Actually 25 or 20 mil QFP stuff is easy to do with just a soldering iron, the secret is to make surface tension do the work. This requires large amounts of rosin flux... I just solder the whole mess (all the leads shorted together) and then using adequate flux, and tilting the board, drain the excess solder off by dragging the iron along the pins. Done it hundreds of times - works like a charm, but sometimes you have to use solder wick to unshort the last 2 pins on each side. Hot air works too but you have to be careful not to burn the PCB (if using a standard hand held hot air gun). I've used a standard hot air gun to solder 388 and 516 pin BGA stuff too. Not that hard but you have to make a jig to hold the BGA part in place (with a little (.007 maybe) slop). I make the jig from 4 pieces of scrap circuit board material tack soldered to the proto board. Surface tension will pull the part into place when all the solder melts. You can tell when the solder melts because the BGA chip will sink about 10 mils (which is one of the reasons that the jig cannot be too tight) I wouldn't solder a very valuble BGA part by hand this way but I have a 70% or so success rate which is ok for protos. When soldering BGA parts on a proto, solder the BGA part first, so that you can sight down all the rows of solder balls to make sure that you dont have a short... > > -- > Linux Home Automation Neil Cherry ncherry@home.net > http://members.home.net/ncherry (Text only) > http://linuxha.sourceforge.net/ (SourceForge) > http://hcs.sourceforge.net/ (HCS II) > Peter Wallace From curt at atari-history.com Tue Nov 20 17:12:24 2001 From: curt at atari-history.com (Curt Vendel) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:11:25 2005 Subject: Tandy 10 Info Wanted References: <160e01c171f2$138b38c0$0b01a8c0@ValuedCustomer> Message-ID: <001501c17218$d2f97570$0a00a8c0@cvendel> I remember those! I used to work for a Radio Shack Computer Center and each night we would enter all of the sales slips into the system and then it would dial into Fort Worth and transmit that days sales and inventory control, Radio shack did a superb job of tracking store sales figures and automatically restocking, all this and they used their own hardware which was also a strange thing to see as most companies were selling computer equipment, yet using other company equipment for day to day operations. Ahhh the good old TRS80 days..... damn I'm feeling nostalgic, anybody have a Model III or IV to sell/trade? Curt ----- Original Message ----- From: "Michael Nadeau" To: Sent: Tuesday, November 20, 2001 1:34 PM Subject: Re: Tandy 10 Info Wanted > The only information I have on it is that it was made for Tandy by another > unidentified company. The system was built into a desk and sold only at the > Tandy Center store in Fort Worth. It had dual 8-inch floppies and sold for > just under $10,000. There's a photo of one in the August 1986 issue of 80 > Micro. > > --Mike > > Michael Nadeau > Editorial Services > 603-893-2379 > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Owen Robertson" > To: "Classic Computer Mailing List" > Sent: Tuesday, November 20, 2001 1:05 PM > Subject: Tandy 10 Info Wanted > > > > Does anyone know anything about the Tandy 10? It was Tandy/Radio Shack's > > larger microcomputer around the time the TRS-80 Model I came out. I found > a > > picture of one in a book, and got kind of interested in it (partially a > > little home-town pride, being from Fort Worth). I can't find hardly any > > information about it on the internet. > > > > Thanks, > > Owen > > > > > From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Tue Nov 20 14:56:39 2001 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (Ben Franchuk) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:11:25 2005 Subject: 1771 chip brings $565 on EBAY? References: Message-ID: <3BFAC387.C6361830@jetnet.ab.ca> "Fred Cisin (XenoSoft)" wrote: > Sellam: I checked through some of my junk, and couldn't find ANY dayglo > yellow 8080s. Would other dayglo colors work? How about the eerie green from a 8080 removed from Three Mile Island. :) Ben Franchuk. -- Live "Pre-historic Cpu's" -- and you thought they were extinct. www.jetnet.ab.ca/users/bfranchuk/index.html From greg at cosc.canterbury.ac.nz Tue Nov 20 18:47:34 2001 From: greg at cosc.canterbury.ac.nz (Greg Ewing) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:11:25 2005 Subject: 1771 floppy controller questions In-Reply-To: <001f01c171d5$7bf7e1a0$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> Message-ID: <200111210047.NAA14189@s454.cosc.canterbury.ac.nz> Richard Erlacher wrote (concerning plugging a 1771 in backwards): > I've done that on one of those "late nights" on more than one > occasion. I discovered a more creative way to destroy a 1771 once. It was on a highly personalised system based on a Dick Smith Super 80 (not System 80!) for which I had built my own disk controller. A friend of mine was attempting to build a colour graphics display, and I had the prototype connected between my system and a TV (via RF). There was a lot of herringbone stuff on the screen, and I wondered whether hash from the computer was getting into the RF modulator through the power supply, so I decided to try filtering it with an inductor, to wit, one winding of an old audio output transformer that I had lying about. It didn't help, so I disconnected it. With the power on. The disk drive head went clunk, and the motor turned on. And stayed on. Permanently. At that point I realised that I had neglected to anticipate the effects of inductive kickback. I couldn't get a 1771 to replace it with at the time, so I got a 1791, which looked like a better part anyway (capable of double density [1]) so I wasn't unhappy about having to make a few changes to the circuitry, such as devising an external data separator. More of a challenge was when I discovered that, of the 4 kinds of data mark supported by the 1771, the 1791 could only read two of them. And, of course, the one I had chosen to use (in my unique home-brewed DOS) was one of the ones no longer supported, so I couldn't read any of my disks! Recovering from that situation was an interesting exercise... Footnotes: [1] I never made use of it, though, since my 2MHz Z80 couldn't keep up with feeding the data buffer fast enough. :-( Greg Ewing, Computer Science Dept, +--------------------------------------+ University of Canterbury, | A citizen of NewZealandCorp, a | Christchurch, New Zealand | wholly-owned subsidiary of USA Inc. | greg@cosc.canterbury.ac.nz +--------------------------------------+ From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Nov 20 17:55:19 2001 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:11:25 2005 Subject: RA60 drives anywhere? And stuff... In-Reply-To: <20011120001351.J22748-100000@lepton.subatomix.com> from "Jeffrey S. Sharp" at Nov 20, 1 00:14:22 am Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 523 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20011120/6bcdfb5e/attachment-0001.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Nov 20 17:50:07 2001 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:11:25 2005 Subject: Dead Intel MDS controller board In-Reply-To: <3BF9B769.7A7B0C21@mich.com> from "Dave Mabry" at Nov 19, 1 08:52:41 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 2719 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20011120/5e371bf1/attachment-0001.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Nov 20 18:08:55 2001 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:11:25 2005 Subject: Interesting find In-Reply-To: <20011120005251.F22748-100000@lepton.subatomix.com> from "Jeffrey S. Sharp" at Nov 20, 1 01:01:31 am Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 2212 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20011121/21aefeb0/attachment-0001.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Nov 20 17:58:46 2001 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:11:25 2005 Subject: 1771 floppy controller questions In-Reply-To: from "Tothwolf" at Nov 20, 1 00:39:50 am Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1113 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20011120/f0361a73/attachment-0001.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Nov 20 17:52:05 2001 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:11:25 2005 Subject: RA60 drives anywhere? And stuff... In-Reply-To: <3BF9B9B2.2020603@aurora.regenstrief.org> from "Gunther Schadow" at Nov 19, 1 09:02:26 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 635 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20011120/674bf6a5/attachment-0001.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Nov 20 18:12:06 2001 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:11:25 2005 Subject: PDP-8 backplane -- was Re: PDP-8 case In-Reply-To: <10111200831.ZM15862@mindy.dunnington.u-net.com> from "Pete Turnbull" at Nov 20, 1 08:31:18 am Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1121 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20011121/072f74f4/attachment-0001.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Nov 20 18:15:56 2001 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:11:25 2005 Subject: 1771 floppy controller questions In-Reply-To: <002b01c1719f$1f0d7940$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> from "Richard Erlacher" at Nov 20, 1 01:41:17 am Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 864 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20011121/3f9f5293/attachment-0001.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Nov 20 18:18:07 2001 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:11:25 2005 Subject: 1771 floppy controller questions In-Reply-To: from "Tothwolf" at Nov 20, 1 03:46:58 am Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 953 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20011121/f58b07a0/attachment-0001.ksh From donm at cts.com Tue Nov 20 19:08:44 2001 From: donm at cts.com (Don Maslin) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:11:25 2005 Subject: Interesting find In-Reply-To: <20011120005251.F22748-100000@lepton.subatomix.com> Message-ID: On Tue, 20 Nov 2001, Jeffrey S. Sharp wrote: > I'm not much of a calculator collector, but the following seems to be much > more than a mere calculator. I've located an HP 9825 for $5 at a local > surplus store. I think I'll go purchase it tomorrow. > > -- > Jeffrey S. Sharp > jss@subatomix.com In the normal scheme of things, you should have bought it yesterday :) - don From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Nov 20 19:50:42 2001 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:11:25 2005 Subject: Interesting find In-Reply-To: from "Sellam Ismail" at Nov 20, 1 09:21:20 am Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 259 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20011121/184b2742/attachment-0001.ksh From vcf at vintage.org Tue Nov 20 20:48:19 2001 From: vcf at vintage.org (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:11:25 2005 Subject: HardCard driver disks Message-ID: I came across a stash of HardCard driver diskettes today (360K 5.25"). They say on the label that they are for the 20MB version, but I'm sure they would work on the 40MB model as well. Anyhoo, I have three spare copies if anyone is interested. One to each respondent. E-mail me your address and I'll get it out to you. Don't worry about mailing costs. Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org * Old computing resources for business and academia at www.VintageTech.com * From dancohoe at oxford.net Tue Nov 20 21:39:52 2001 From: dancohoe at oxford.net (Dan Cohoe) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:11:25 2005 Subject: HardCard driver disks References: Message-ID: <3BFB2208.E1D80B3E@oxford.net> Vintage Computer Festival wrote: > > I came across a stash of HardCard driver diskettes today (360K 5.25"). > They say on the label that they are for the 20MB version, but I'm sure > they would work on the 40MB model as well. > > Anyhoo, I have three spare copies if anyone is interested. One to each > respondent. E-mail me your address and I'll get it out to you. Don't > worry about mailing costs. > > Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ > International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org > > * Old computing resources for business and academia at www.VintageTech.com * Hi Sellam, I just ran across two brand new 40 Meg Hardcards about a month ago so could use one of these diskettes if still available and if you think they will use the same drivers. Thanks, Dan Cohoe R.R # 2, Burgessville, Ontario Canada N0J 1C0 From zaft at azstarnet.com Tue Nov 20 22:11:23 2001 From: zaft at azstarnet.com (Gordon C. Zaft) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:11:25 2005 Subject: SCB68430 DMA controller data sheets etc. In-Reply-To: <001701c1715e$9cf2b1e0$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> References: <4.3.2.7.2.20011119151244.00b1d0c8@mail.azstarnet.com> Message-ID: <4.3.2.7.2.20011120211045.028e6ec0@pop.azstarnet.com> There was nothing on this part on the Philips website, however I got a datasheet from www.partsminer.com. GZ At 05:59 PM 11/19/2001 -0700, you wrote: >That's a SIGNETICS part number and PHILIPS bought them in '89-'90 timeframe. >Have you tried the Philips web site? > >Dick > >----- Original Message ----- >From: "Gordon Zaft" >To: >Sent: Monday, November 19, 2001 3:13 PM >Subject: SCB68430 DMA controller data sheets etc. > > > > > > Anyone know of a source for data sheets and app notes for the SCB68430 DMA > > controller? I couldn't find anything via Google. > > Gordon Zaft zaft@azstarnet.com From edick at idcomm.com Tue Nov 20 23:22:58 2001 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:11:25 2005 Subject: SCB68430 DMA controller data sheets etc. References: <4.3.2.7.2.20011119151244.00b1d0c8@mail.azstarnet.com> <4.3.2.7.2.20011120211045.028e6ec0@pop.azstarnet.com> Message-ID: <005701c1724c$956e4f80$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> Sadly, the freetradezone/partsminer are starting to charge a ~$300 monthly fee for their service, so stock up on datasheet files while you can. Dick ----- Original Message ----- From: "Gordon C. Zaft" To: Sent: Tuesday, November 20, 2001 9:11 PM Subject: Re: SCB68430 DMA controller data sheets etc. > > There was nothing on this part on the Philips website, however I > got a datasheet from www.partsminer.com. > > GZ > At 05:59 PM 11/19/2001 -0700, you wrote: > >That's a SIGNETICS part number and PHILIPS bought them in '89-'90 timeframe. > >Have you tried the Philips web site? > > > >Dick > > > >----- Original Message ----- > >From: "Gordon Zaft" > >To: > >Sent: Monday, November 19, 2001 3:13 PM > >Subject: SCB68430 DMA controller data sheets etc. > > > > > > > > > > Anyone know of a source for data sheets and app notes for the SCB68430 DMA > > > controller? I couldn't find anything via Google. > > > > > > Gordon Zaft > zaft@azstarnet.com > > From fernande at internet1.net Tue Nov 20 23:29:58 2001 From: fernande at internet1.net (Chad Fernandez) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:11:25 2005 Subject: Radio Shack abandons components References: <200111202145.PAA33600@opal.tseinc.com> Message-ID: <3BFB3BD6.E455FB03@internet1.net> I thought Tandy sold the computer division to Compaq? Chad Fernandez Michigan, USA Jeff Hellige wrote: > The one's that I'm talking about though weren't just returned > or damaged junk. I used to see them with quite a bit of computer > stuff, mostly stock leftovers, such as cables, cards, and tech > manuals. Once Tandy sold their computer stuff to AST, this type of > stuff pretty much disappeared as time went by and forgotten stock was > disposed of. There used to be some good bargains to be had in the > 'used' sections of the ComputerCity stores as well. > > Jeff From jss at subatomix.com Tue Nov 20 23:54:49 2001 From: jss at subatomix.com (Jeffrey S. Sharp) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:11:25 2005 Subject: RA60 drives anywhere? And stuff... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20011120235152.A24911-100000@lepton.subatomix.com> On Tue, 20 Nov 2001, Tony Duell wrote: > Last time I was in a PC shop, they were selling 'line printer > paper'... What was it? Poor-ish quality A4 sheets, like you'd use in > a laser printer or copier. Not fanfold, not sproketed, certainly not > greenbar. I bought a box of wide, greenbar paper at my local OfficeMax. They had quite a few boxes in inventory. -- Jeffrey S. Sharp jss@subatomix.com From jss at subatomix.com Wed Nov 21 00:10:00 2001 From: jss at subatomix.com (Jeffrey S. Sharp) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:11:25 2005 Subject: Interesting find In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20011121000455.Y24911-100000@lepton.subatomix.com> On Tue, 20 Nov 2001, Don Maslin wrote: > On Tue, 20 Nov 2001, Jeffrey S. Sharp wrote: > > > HP 9825 for $5 [...] I think I'll go purchase it tomorrow. > > In the normal scheme of things, you should have bought it yesterday :) Well, things just "came up" today that had to take priority. I'll get around to it as my first order of business tomorrow morning. Besides, it will still get done "tomorrow", as I originally said. :) -- Jeffrey S. Sharp jss@subatomix.com From donm at cts.com Wed Nov 21 00:36:02 2001 From: donm at cts.com (Don Maslin) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:11:25 2005 Subject: Interesting find In-Reply-To: <20011121000455.Y24911-100000@lepton.subatomix.com> Message-ID: On Wed, 21 Nov 2001, Jeffrey S. Sharp wrote: > On Tue, 20 Nov 2001, Don Maslin wrote: > > > On Tue, 20 Nov 2001, Jeffrey S. Sharp wrote: > > > > > HP 9825 for $5 [...] I think I'll go purchase it tomorrow. > > > > In the normal scheme of things, you should have bought it yesterday :) > > Well, things just "came up" today that had to take priority. I'll get > around to it as my first order of business tomorrow morning. > > Besides, it will still get done "tomorrow", as I originally said. :) If it is still there - which was the thrust of my comment. - don > -- > Jeffrey S. Sharp > jss@subatomix.com > > From optimus at canit.se Tue Nov 20 01:21:13 2001 From: optimus at canit.se (Iggy Drougge) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:11:25 2005 Subject: Trinary circuits Message-ID: <240.724T650T5014739optimus@canit.se> This might interest some of the perverts out there: http://www.trinary.cc/ -- En ligne avec Thor 2.6a. There are two major products that come from Berkeley: LSD and UNIX. We don't believe this to be a coincidence. -- Jeremy S. Anderson From optimus at canit.se Tue Nov 20 01:37:57 2001 From: optimus at canit.se (Iggy Drougge) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:11:25 2005 Subject: Intel C8080A chip brings $565 on EBAY In-Reply-To: <01Nov19.110754est.119248@gateway.mediacen.navy.mil> Message-ID: <1493.724T2850T5176831optimus@canit.se> Jeff Hellige skrev: >>Now, looking at old computer chips can be fun for a while, but they are >>essentially worthless, unless you are of an inclination similar to Tony's >>and have got an electron microscope. They are meant to run computers, not to >>sit there and do nothing. I have the same stance on people who collect >>computers and game just for keeping them, instead of using them. > I really don't see the need for the name calling though as, >regardless of motivation, all collectors are helping to preserve >items that would otherwise likely get tossed as trash. We all have >different interests, motivations and goals but the end result is very >much the same. In the future, one of us may need the assistance of >one of these chip collectors in order to aquire some obscure chip we >can't find anywhere else. But that's what worries me. Why would a person who's looking to get a computer up and running be at the mercy of people who pay hundreds and hundreds of dollars for chips only for their cosmetic qualities. They obviously have different motivations than computer collectors. -- En ligne avec Thor 2.6a. I installed 7.6.1 on my Color Classic too. It has 6mb ram now, and no FPU yet. Things really slowed down when I installed the Appearance extention and control panel. But now the GUI is OS8ish! ;) That little creep is so cute, I'll probably leave instructions to have it made my urn. It'll hold my ashes, and still continue to function as a computer ;) iVan From optimus at canit.se Wed Nov 21 02:02:32 2001 From: optimus at canit.se (Iggy Drougge) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:11:25 2005 Subject: FreeTradeZone site moving to subscription-only for older parts In-Reply-To: <9011A52E011ED311B4280004AC1BA615014672BB@yalepress3.unipress.yale.edu> Message-ID: <285.725T1600T5424845optimus@canit.se> David Woyciesjes skrev: >Maybe runs a full-tilt website crawler/archiver program? The kind that grabs >whetever pages you tell it, for offline reading, or some such thing? Wget. -- En ligne avec Thor 2.6a. Amiga 4000/040 25MHz/64MB/20GB RetinaBLTZ3/VLab/FastlaneZ3/Ariadne/Toccata From optimus at canit.se Wed Nov 21 02:33:05 2001 From: optimus at canit.se (Iggy Drougge) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:11:25 2005 Subject: OT: paging MAC expert(s) --- What's a Performa? In-Reply-To: <002b01c17212$aeb59c80$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> Message-ID: <615.725T250T5733791optimus@canit.se> Richard Erlacher skrev: >Well, that's good, but the ultimate end user has no Netscape experience, and >I've got not even enough to be dangerous. I never liked Nestcape because you >had to buy that %$#@! Trumpet Winsock to make it work, and that crapped up a >lot of other Windows functions. What kind of bollocks is that? How do you expect to run a web browser without a TCP/IP stack? I suppose you wouldn't fancy Netscape on the Mac any more, since you had to buy MacTCP in order to run that. Buyt then again, what browser doesn't require a TCP/IP stack in order to be used online? -- En ligne avec Thor 2.6a. From optimus at canit.se Wed Nov 21 02:41:48 2001 From: optimus at canit.se (Iggy Drougge) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:11:25 2005 Subject: Radio Shack abandons components In-Reply-To: <3BFB3BD6.E455FB03@internet1.net> Message-ID: <271.725T2400T5815589optimus@canit.se> Chad Fernandez skrev: >I thought Tandy sold the computer division to Compaq? You're probably thinking of Tandon. -- En ligne avec Thor 2.6a. G? med i SUGA, Swedish Usergroup of Amiga! WWW: http://swedish.usergroup.amiga.tm/ BBS: 08-6582572, telnet://sua.ath.cx:42512 From tothwolf at concentric.net Wed Nov 21 03:11:53 2001 From: tothwolf at concentric.net (Tothwolf) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:11:25 2005 Subject: Preserving old literature (was: Re: Tandy 10 Info Wanted) In-Reply-To: <164001c17201$aaa5a240$0b01a8c0@ValuedCustomer> Message-ID: On Tue, 20 Nov 2001, Michael Nadeau wrote: > From: "Tothwolf" > > > Speaking of 80 Micro...has anyone scanned the issues from 1980-1983? I > > have a collection covering all of 1980-1982, and about 1/4th of '83 > > (starting with issue #1). I haven't yet scanned anything since I am unsure > > about how to do so w/o damaging them. > > If I were to do it, I'd sacrifice a less-than-pristine copy for the > cause--not an option if you don't have a duplicate, of course. Scanning some > of those bigger issues without taking them apart is near impossible (I've > tried), and there's no way to reassemble the magazine. I don't have any duplicates, so taking them apart in such a way that ruins them isn't an option for me. I guess I need to find an expert on book binding and see what they can come up with. Maybe there is a special scanner out there that was made for doing this kind of thing? -Toth From tothwolf at concentric.net Wed Nov 21 03:18:36 2001 From: tothwolf at concentric.net (Tothwolf) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:11:25 2005 Subject: 1771 floppy controller questions In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Wed, 21 Nov 2001, Tony Duell wrote: > > makes sense that they changed that part of the design. I own both a model > > 3 and 4, neither of which currently work. Any ideas on where a service > > manual can be found for either of these? I also have a model 2 that worked > > I have at least schematics for the M3 and non-gate-array M4. What's the > problem with your machines? What do they do at switch-on? It has been a number of years since I powered them up. Right now I think they are both sitting disassembled in a couple of large boxes. I'm in the process of construction of a building just for my old hardware, so once that is done, I'll pull both of them out and bench them and see what their problems were. I think the model 3 would start up, but just plain lock up about the time it was going to boot. I think it may be a ram problem. The model 4 didn't power up at all if I remember correctly. -Toth From fernande at internet1.net Wed Nov 21 03:29:51 2001 From: fernande at internet1.net (Chad Fernandez) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:11:25 2005 Subject: Radio Shack abandons components References: <271.725T2400T5815589optimus@canit.se> Message-ID: <3BFB740F.39FF42E6@internet1.net> No, I knew about that one. I thought Tandy Computers were bought out by Compaq too. Thats what I had heard, unless that was just a rumor brought on by all the RS stores carrying Compaqs after the demise of the Tandy line. Visiting the RS web site, I see that it was indeed AST. Chad Fernandez Michigan, USA Iggy Drougge wrote: > > Chad Fernandez skrev: > > >I thought Tandy sold the computer division to Compaq? > > You're probably thinking of Tandon. > > -- > En ligne avec Thor 2.6a. > > G? med i SUGA, Swedish Usergroup of Amiga! > WWW: http://swedish.usergroup.amiga.tm/ > BBS: 08-6582572, telnet://sua.ath.cx:42512 From Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de Wed Nov 21 04:21:58 2001 From: Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de (Hans Franke) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:11:25 2005 Subject: 1771 chip brings $565 on EBAY? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <3BFB8E56.16408.3440B6@localhost> > > > Well, I accidentally plugged the chip in backward when troubleshooting the > > > floppy interface right after I got it. It turned out that the floppy > > > ribbon was bad, just due to age I guess. I don't think the chip let out > > > its magic smoke, but it certainly does not work now ;) > > A modest proposal: > > Since the chip collectors don't REALLY care whether tha chip is actually > > WORKING, ... > > So long as the escape of the magic smoke didn't leave any marks, save the > > electrically dead chips, and let the ship collectors have them. > > If the chip collectors would be willing to trade working common varieties > > of chips for dead rarer colors, ... > > C'mon guys, got a working common variety 1771 for Toth? > Eh...my dead chip isn't in good shape, it got hot enough to almost totally > erase its markings. I think quite a few of the pins got broken off after I > tossed the dead chip in the junk box too. I just can't see someone wanting > a dead 1771 w/ faint markings and broken pins...I guess it would look ok > if it were glued to something and had some clear coat applied to the top > to make the writing show up again ;P Remember, this is Antiqu Stuff business - it could be a good idea to have a skilled artist restore the optical condition. If you invest, lets say two or threehundres Dollars you still may get a prety good deal. SCNR H. -- VCF Europa 3.0 am 27./28. April 2002 in Muenchen http://www.vcfe.org/ From Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de Wed Nov 21 04:28:24 2001 From: Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de (Hans Franke) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:11:25 2005 Subject: panasonic hhc In-Reply-To: <115.7f83d31.292bf82f@aol.com> Message-ID: <3BFB8FD8.9556.3A2428@localhost> > hey thanks hans i pulled up a webb site on it mentioning the basic in rom > wonder if if have that and how to program with it. > i got about six chips with it. i cant find them right now but i think i may > have thrown them out. > silly me AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAArgh. Well, if you happen to find them again, I'd love to get some copies. Gruss H. -- VCF Europa 3.0 am 27./28. April 2002 in Muenchen http://www.vcfe.org/ From cmurillo at emtelsa.multi.net.co Wed Nov 21 05:58:49 2001 From: cmurillo at emtelsa.multi.net.co (Carlos Murillo) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:11:25 2005 Subject: FreeTradeZone site moving to subscription-only for older parts In-Reply-To: <285.725T1600T5424845optimus@canit.se> References: <9011A52E011ED311B4280004AC1BA615014672BB@yalepress3.unipress.yale.edu> Message-ID: <3.0.2.32.20011121065849.010878b8@obregon.multi.net.co> At 09:02 AM 11/21/01 +0100, Iggy wrote: >David Woyciesjes skrev: > >>Maybe runs a full-tilt website crawler/archiver program? The kind that grabs >>whetever pages you tell it, for offline reading, or some such thing? > >Wget. I thought you did not like wget. carlos. -------------------------------------------------------------- Carlos E. Murillo-Sanchez carlos_murillo@nospammers.ieee.org From cbajpai at mediaone.net Wed Nov 21 06:20:46 2001 From: cbajpai at mediaone.net (Chandra Bajpai) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:11:25 2005 Subject: Radio Shack abandons components In-Reply-To: <3BFB740F.39FF42E6@internet1.net> Message-ID: <000401c17286$f4e643c0$b97ba8c0@ne.mediaone.net> Tandy Computers sold out to AST (who also bought Grid)...part of the deal was that AST computers were sold at Radio Shack, the deal didn't last that long. AST also sold out to their majority investor (Samsung?) when they were nearly out of business. Unrelated is the RadioShack-Compaq deal...similar to deal cut by Sprint-RadioShack. -Chandra -----Original Message----- From: owner-classiccmp@classiccmp.org [mailto:owner-classiccmp@classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Chad Fernandez Sent: Wednesday, November 21, 2001 4:30 AM To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org Subject: Re: Radio Shack abandons components No, I knew about that one. I thought Tandy Computers were bought out by Compaq too. Thats what I had heard, unless that was just a rumor brought on by all the RS stores carrying Compaqs after the demise of the Tandy line. Visiting the RS web site, I see that it was indeed AST. Chad Fernandez Michigan, USA Iggy Drougge wrote: > > Chad Fernandez skrev: > > >I thought Tandy sold the computer division to Compaq? > > You're probably thinking of Tandon. > > -- > En ligne avec Thor 2.6a. > > G? med i SUGA, Swedish Usergroup of Amiga! > WWW: http://swedish.usergroup.amiga.tm/ > BBS: 08-6582572, telnet://sua.ath.cx:42512 From bpope at wordstock.com Wed Nov 21 06:43:26 2001 From: bpope at wordstock.com (Bryan Pope) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:11:25 2005 Subject: OT: paging MAC expert(s) --- What's a Performa? In-Reply-To: <615.725T250T5733791optimus@canit.se> from "Iggy Drougge" at Nov 21, 01 09:33:05 am Message-ID: <200111211243.HAA12409@wordstock.com> > > Richard Erlacher skrev: > > >Well, that's good, but the ultimate end user has no Netscape experience, and > >I've got not even enough to be dangerous. I never liked Nestcape because you > >had to buy that %$#@! Trumpet Winsock to make it work, and that crapped up a buy!? In the day when we had to use Trumpet Winsock, it came free when you signed up for an internet account. But this was on Windows 3.1. > >lot of other Windows functions. > Bryan Pope From zmerch at 30below.com Wed Nov 21 06:51:18 2001 From: zmerch at 30below.com (Roger Merchberger) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:11:25 2005 Subject: SCB68430 DMA controller data sheets etc. In-Reply-To: <005701c1724c$956e4f80$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> References: <4.3.2.7.2.20011119151244.00b1d0c8@mail.azstarnet.com> <4.3.2.7.2.20011120211045.028e6ec0@pop.azstarnet.com> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20011121074011.00acb088@mail.30below.com> Rumor has it that Richard Erlacher may have mentioned these words: >Sadly, the freetradezone/partsminer are starting to charge a ~$300 monthly fee >for their service, so stock up on datasheet files while you can. Yes, that is sad, however... Fairchild Semi has a WWW site that I'd gotten all of their chip datasheets in PDF format -- several gigs in fact. On my linux box, I downloaded the entire PDF datasheet directory & archived it to CD-ROM. I don't have the archive in any "quick-find" format, but if there are any weird chips out there you need datasheets on, I might be able to get them to you within a week (barring holidays... ;-) Try here: http://www.fairchildsemi.com/pf/ This is the main directory of all the chip PDFs, listed by first 2 characters of the part number -- DM houses most all of the 74xx series parts they make, the 1N directory you can get data on all their diodes, etc... I can tell you that if you have a modem, don't even try downloading this whole thing -- It took me almost 24 hours with a pair of T1's to the backbone (that's 3Mbit)! HTH, Roger "Merch" Merchberger From dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com Wed Nov 21 07:20:37 2001 From: dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com (Douglas Quebbeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:11:25 2005 Subject: RA60 drives anywhere? And stuff... Message-ID: <7A9BACCEF0171D4FB77019F5104CDD37225951@jeffserver.tegjeff.com> > On Tue, 20 Nov 2001, Tony Duell wrote: > > > Last time I was in a PC shop, they were selling 'line printer > > paper'... What was it? Poor-ish quality A4 sheets, like you'd use in > > a laser printer or copier. Not fanfold, not sproketed, certainly not > > greenbar. > > I bought a box of wide, greenbar paper at my local OfficeMax. They had > quite a few boxes in inventory. Yup. Box of 20lb greenbar set me back US$38 at Office Despot. -dq From dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com Wed Nov 21 07:23:36 2001 From: dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com (Douglas Quebbeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:11:26 2005 Subject: OT: paging MAC expert(s) --- What's a Performa? Message-ID: <7A9BACCEF0171D4FB77019F5104CDD37225952@jeffserver.tegjeff.com> > > Richard Erlacher skrev: > > > > >Well, that's good, but the ultimate end user has no Netscape experience, and > > >I've got not even enough to be dangerous. I never liked Nestcape because you > > >had to buy that %$#@! Trumpet Winsock to make it work, and that crapped up a > > buy!? In the day when we had to use Trumpet Winsock, it came free when you > signed up for an internet account. But this was on Windows 3.1. Ditto that. -dq From joh869 at aol.com Wed Nov 21 07:32:09 2001 From: joh869 at aol.com (joh869@aol.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:11:26 2005 Subject: (no subject) Message-ID: <153.45ce7d5.292d06d9@aol.com> Hi I need a systems disk that contains software for the Toshiba dynabook 286. Also where can I buy a low density floppy? You may -mail me with suggestions @ u-should-b@webtv.net N-E HELP will be greatly appreaciated. Thanx -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20011121/9fb3b8cc/attachment-0001.html From tothwolf at concentric.net Wed Nov 21 07:53:58 2001 From: tothwolf at concentric.net (Tothwolf) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:11:26 2005 Subject: 1771 chip brings $565 on EBAY? In-Reply-To: <3BFB8E56.16408.3440B6@localhost> Message-ID: On Wed, 21 Nov 2001, Hans Franke wrote: > Remember, this is Antiqu Stuff business - it could be a good idea to > have a skilled artist restore the optical condition. If you invest, > lets say two or threehundres Dollars you still may get a prety good > deal. Somehow I doubt that...I can get a NOS chip for $5, so it don't seem to be worth it. I think I'll just toss the old one back into the junk box and let it collect value with age. Who knows? maybe in 20 years it'll be worth something ;P -Toth From r_beaudry at hotmail.com Wed Nov 21 08:39:05 2001 From: r_beaudry at hotmail.com (Rich Beaudry) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:11:26 2005 Subject: Mac Restore CDs/Manuals Message-ID: Hello all.... I recently picked up an LC 630 DOS Compatible Macintosh. Nice machine, with SCSI CD, the DOS card, A/V card, and TV tuner card, but no disks or manuals. I know it's off-topic but someone here already mentioned a restore CD, and I believe it was for the LC 630. If so, could you contact me off-list mailto:r_beaudry@hotmail.com ) so I could get a copy? I'll gladly pay for postage and media costs.. Same for hardcopy manuals. I have some .PDFs, but they're so clumsy ... If anyone has spare copies of manuals for this machine, especially any tech references or service manuals, I'll gladly pay postage, and some extra, for them.... Thanks! Rich B. From Robert_Feldman at jdedwards.com Wed Nov 21 08:37:50 2001 From: Robert_Feldman at jdedwards.com (Feldman, Robert) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:11:26 2005 Subject: 50th anniversary of the routine business use of computers Message-ID: I was looking at the Economist (Nov 17th) at the library last night and saw the following (p. 76) The Lyons Electronic Office (LEO) began use 11-17-1951 in a British catering company. It was used weekly to evaluate costs, prices, and margins for the week's output of bread, cakes, and pies. It was "the first dedicated business machine to operate on the 'stored program' principle, meaning that it could be quickly reconfigured to preform different tasks by loading a new program. It occupied 5,000 square feet of floorspace, contained 6,000 thermionic valves, and its mercury-delay-line memory could hold 2,048 instructions. LEO was built by a team led by John Pinkerton (pictured), and its design was based on Cambridge University's EDSAC computer." From dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com Wed Nov 21 08:53:51 2001 From: dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com (Douglas Quebbeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:11:26 2005 Subject: Radio Shack abandons components Message-ID: <7A9BACCEF0171D4FB77019F5104CDD37225958@jeffserver.tegjeff.com> > >I live just north of Fort Worth, and the big Radio Shack "Outlet Store". > >They have a lot of discontinued things, and a lot of components. I assume > >they'll always have them. > > I've noticed that even the 'bargain bin' area that used to be > tucked back in one corner of most stores seems to be gone as well. > Used to be able to get some cool older discontinued stuff from that > section, including Model 2000 stuff. Unfortunately I also passed on > a portable disk drive in the same area at one point. The portable hard drive? I've got one of those, I really do need to get my 2000 out and play with it for Christmas... -dq From menadeau at mediaone.net Wed Nov 21 08:52:34 2001 From: menadeau at mediaone.net (Michael Nadeau) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:11:26 2005 Subject: Cringely on the origin of the IBM PC and Open Source References: <5.0.0.25.2.20011120081004.024bfde0@209.185.79.193> <00a101c171e2$e3a56720$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> Message-ID: <0a3101c1729c$2e6acb60$0b01a8c0@ValuedCustomer> Read the comments by Jack Sams, formerly of IBM, about half-way down. Fascinating history. http://www.pbs.org/cringely/pulpit/pulpit20011122.html --Mike Michael Nadeau Editorial Services 603-893-2379 From ghldbrd at ccp.com Wed Nov 21 10:20:29 2001 From: ghldbrd at ccp.com (Gary Hildebrand) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:11:26 2005 Subject: Toshiba disk & DSDD floppy References: <153.45ce7d5.292d06d9@aol.com> Message-ID: <3BFBD44D.EBABADD5@ccp.com> sorry can't help on the Toshiba system disk, as I'm a predominantly Amiga guy here. DSDD 3.5 drives are rare too, as most dealers threw them away. I have a small stash, but I'm haning on to them as they are used in Amigas. I'd reccomend finding some computer swap meets, hamfests, and used computer dealers. any one of these may be able to help you find what you're looking for. Gary Hildebrand st. Jsoeph, MO From jhellige at earthlink.net Wed Nov 21 08:22:52 2001 From: jhellige at earthlink.net (Jeff Hellige) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:11:26 2005 Subject: Radio Shack abandons components In-Reply-To: <7A9BACCEF0171D4FB77019F5104CDD37225958@jeffserver.tegjeff.com> References: <7A9BACCEF0171D4FB77019F5104CDD37225958@jeffserver.tegjeff.com> Message-ID: <01Nov21.103432est.119337@gateway.mediacen.navy.mil> > > I've noticed that even the 'bargain bin' area that used to be >> tucked back in one corner of most stores seems to be gone as well. >> Used to be able to get some cool older discontinued stuff from that >> section, including Model 2000 stuff. Unfortunately I also passed on >> a portable disk drive in the same area at one point. > >The portable hard drive? I've got one of those, I really >do need to get my 2000 out and play with it for Christmas... I was referring to the portable floppy for the Tandy Model 100 and 102 laptops. My Model 2000HD tends to stay set up next to my desk, as I get quite a few requests for info on the machine. I still use the BASIC demo, which was used in the catalog shots of the machine as well, whenever I want to show off it's graphics capabilities. I've been trying without success to get a copy of the Model 2000's driver disk for Windows 1. Jeff -- Home of the TRS-80 Model 2000 FAQ File http://www.cchaven.com http://www.geocities.com/siliconvalley/lakes/6757 From Antonio.Carlini at riverstonenet.com Wed Nov 21 09:21:03 2001 From: Antonio.Carlini at riverstonenet.com (Carlini, Antonio) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:11:26 2005 Subject: FreeTradeZone site moving to subscription-only for older part s Message-ID: <3820E2042B6ED5118DC200D0B78EDC4706623C@exc-reo1> > >Wget. > > I thought you did not like wget. > Regardless of whether he likes it or not, since you have to get past the initial form where you type your search query, there is no simple way to download their whole database. I believe that they used to make some CDs available (presumably for a fee). It might be easier to get hold of those (assuming the old scanned manuals and datasheets are on there!). Antonio From csmith at amdocs.com Wed Nov 21 09:30:02 2001 From: csmith at amdocs.com (Christopher Smith) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:11:26 2005 Subject: OT: paging MAC expert(s) --- What's a Performa? Message-ID: <3B55D7F383B0D31197D9009027541CBF1170DEB8@cmiexch1.cmi.itds.com> > -----Original Message----- > From: Richard Erlacher [mailto:edick@idcomm.com] > really well. Lots of folks have drawn the erroneous > conclusion that they're in > the business of writing software. That's not the case. > They're in the business > of SELLING software. It's not their job to protect the > consumer. It's the > consumer's job to protect himself. The consumer's been > falling down on the job, All too true. Unfortunately, some of those consumers employ me, so it becomes my problem too. :) I should clarify that I don't dislike my employer. I only dislike the fact that (like most companies) they're stupid enough to run parts of their business on microsoft software. > hence, he keeps on buying that Microsoft product line. If he > were smart, he'd > stick with the devil he partially knows, and let M$ go under. > SO much for > Billy-bashing ... Very clear cut. I wish everyone saw it that way. ;) > I'd like to see someone write a chunk of software that does > as much as this one > in 20 minutes, BTW. I don't think something this size will > even link in 20 > minutes. I was exaggerating to show my point. [snip] > longer the case. In fact, so much wierd stuff goes on > internally to the drive, > since the controller function is dedicated on each drive, > that it's hard to know > what is different between two drives. Too true, again. I blame whoever decided IDE hard drives were good to shoehorn into any system ;) (Maybe that was apple?) Regards, Chris Christopher Smith, Perl Developer Amdocs - Champaign, IL /usr/bin/perl -e ' print((~"\x95\xc4\xe3"^"Just Another Perl Hacker.")."\x08!\n"); ' From jrice at texoma.net Wed Nov 21 09:31:03 2001 From: jrice at texoma.net (James L. Rice) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:11:26 2005 Subject: Radio Shack abandons components References: <7A9BACCEF0171D4FB77019F5104CDD37225958@jeffserver.tegjeff.com> Message-ID: <3BFBC8B7.90400@texoma.net> I think he was talking about the PDD for a Model 100. BTW, I have a almost complete M100 set I'm putting up on ebay during Thanksgiving. It is a 32k M100, PDD-1, two printer cables, two bar code readers, two cassette cables, the blue nylon soft case, acoustic cups, direct modem cable, all manuals, a couple of other books, two AC adapters, and a complete brown binder set of all M100 software published by Rat Shack for the M100. I've had the M100 since new in 1984. I just don't have room or time tp play with all of my toys, so I've decided to concentrate on my Indy, my Sparcs and my NeXT machines. My Dimension cube is fully outfitted and on the 'net. The only piece of NeXT hardware that I need is a second NeXT color printer for the slab and a Turbo motherboard for the cube...unless Santa wants to drop a Nitro or Pyro board in my stocking! James http://home.texoma.net/~jrice Douglas Quebbeman wrote: >>>I live just north of Fort Worth, and the big Radio Shack "Outlet Store". >>>They have a lot of discontinued things, and a lot of components. I assume >>>they'll always have them. >>> >> I've noticed that even the 'bargain bin' area that used to be >>tucked back in one corner of most stores seems to be gone as well. >>Used to be able to get some cool older discontinued stuff from that >>section, including Model 2000 stuff. Unfortunately I also passed on >>a portable disk drive in the same area at one point. >> > >The portable hard drive? I've got one of those, I really >do need to get my 2000 out and play with it for Christmas... > >-dq > >. > From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Wed Nov 21 09:30:33 2001 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (Ben Franchuk) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:11:26 2005 Subject: 1771 chip brings $565 on EBAY? References: Message-ID: <3BFBC899.2478A4F7@jetnet.ab.ca> Tothwolf wrote: > > On Wed, 21 Nov 2001, Hans Franke wrote: > > > Remember, this is Antiqu Stuff business - it could be a good idea to > > have a skilled artist restore the optical condition. If you invest, > > lets say two or threehundres Dollars you still may get a prety good > > deal. > > Somehow I doubt that...I can get a NOS chip for $5, so it don't seem to be > worth it. I think I'll just toss the old one back into the junk box and > let it collect value with age. Who knows? maybe in 20 years it'll be worth > something ;P Sounds like tube audio here. A generic NOS abc tube $5. A new gold plated fancy abc tube from the fancy audio people $35. And of course the latest amp needs 8 of them. :( A middle road is needed here. > -Toth Ben Franchuk. -- Live "Pre-historic Cpu's" -- and you thought they were extinct. www.jetnet.ab.ca/users/bfranchuk/index.html From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Wed Nov 21 09:36:26 2001 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (Ben Franchuk) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:11:26 2005 Subject: Trinary circuits References: <240.724T650T5014739optimus@canit.se> Message-ID: <3BFBC9FA.EBDD78A3@jetnet.ab.ca> Iggy Drougge wrote: > > This might interest some of the perverts out there: http://www.trinary.cc/ Yes this great. Now all 3 fingered people like elves can use a computer:) Thanks I have always wondered about base 3 math. Ben Franchuk. -- Live "Pre-historic Cpu's" -- and you thought they were extinct. www.jetnet.ab.ca/users/bfranchuk/index.html From csmith at amdocs.com Wed Nov 21 09:44:44 2001 From: csmith at amdocs.com (Christopher Smith) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:11:26 2005 Subject: OT: paging MAC expert(s) --- What's a Performa? Message-ID: <3B55D7F383B0D31197D9009027541CBF1170DEB9@cmiexch1.cmi.itds.com> > -----Original Message----- > From: Iggy Drougge [mailto:optimus@canit.se] > What kind of bollocks is that? How do you expect to run a web > browser without > a TCP/IP stack? I suppose you wouldn't fancy Netscape on the > Mac any more, > since you had to buy MacTCP in order to run that. > Buyt then again, what browser doesn't require a TCP/IP stack > in order to be > used online? I believe there was at least one MS-DOS browser that didn't (doesn't) require a _separate_ stack. That is, since it is built into the browser. There is also slipknot(slipnot?), which acts as a front-end to a shell-account with lynx. :) (That's an interesting program...) Regards, Chris Christopher Smith, Perl Developer Amdocs - Champaign, IL /usr/bin/perl -e ' print((~"\x95\xc4\xe3"^"Just Another Perl Hacker.")."\x08!\n"); ' From csmith at amdocs.com Wed Nov 21 09:56:17 2001 From: csmith at amdocs.com (Christopher Smith) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:11:26 2005 Subject: Mac Restore CDs/Manuals Message-ID: <3B55D7F383B0D31197D9009027541CBF1170DEBA@cmiexch1.cmi.itds.com> > -----Original Message----- > From: Rich Beaudry [mailto:r_beaudry@hotmail.com] > Same for hardcopy manuals. I have some .PDFs, but they're so > clumsy ... If > anyone has spare copies of manuals for this machine, > especially any tech > references or service manuals, I'll gladly pay postage, and > some extra, for > them.... I assume they exist somewhere, but the closest thing I've ever seen to a tech reference or service manual for any macintosh was the Chilton's book on macintosh repair. (Yes, the same people who do automobile repair books...) It have that book, and it's relatively decent. Only covers old goldfish-bowl style macs, though. :) The copy I have, though, is the only copy of the book I've ever seen. Regards, Chris Christopher Smith, Perl Developer Amdocs - Champaign, IL /usr/bin/perl -e ' print((~"\x95\xc4\xe3"^"Just Another Perl Hacker.")."\x08!\n"); ' From Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de Wed Nov 21 10:10:27 2001 From: Hans.Franke at mch20.sbs.de (Hans Franke) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:11:26 2005 Subject: Exhibition 20th Anniversary IBM PC in Frankfurt/M (D) Message-ID: <3BFBE003.24923.1734AB9@localhost> This Sunday an Exhibition themed 20th Anniversary of the IBM PC will open in Frankfurt/M, Germany. The show will last until early January, so plenty time to book your tikets. I don't have detailed information about the pices exhibited, but it seams to be a prety mixed up melnage of PCs and other mid 80s machnines. Check http://www.fitg.de/fitg_deutsch/aktiv/pc20j/pc_werbe_00.html (German only) The exhibition is produced by the Förderkreises Industrie- und Technikgeschichte e.V., a non profit organisation dedicated to preserve industrial age and technological artefacts. Also least one of the co-producers (Matthias Schmitt) is also prety active around other classic computing themes. Gruss H. -- VCF Europa 3.0 am 27./28. April 2002 in Muenchen http://www.vcfe.org/ From jhellige at earthlink.net Wed Nov 21 09:07:47 2001 From: jhellige at earthlink.net (Jeff Hellige) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:11:26 2005 Subject: Radio Shack abandons components In-Reply-To: <3BFBC8B7.90400@texoma.net> References: <7A9BACCEF0171D4FB77019F5104CDD37225958@jeffserver.tegjeff.com> <3BFBC8B7.90400@texoma.net> Message-ID: <01Nov21.111926est.119343@gateway.mediacen.navy.mil> > and my NeXT machines. My Dimension cube is fully outfitted and on >the 'net. The only piece of NeXT hardware that I need is a >second NeXT color printer for the slab and a Turbo motherboard for >the cube...unless Santa wants to drop a Nitro or Pyro board in my >stocking! You have a Dimension Cube and you still want more??! Some people are never happy! I switched my LAN at home from the trial of Surfdoubler to the registered IPNetRouter and am having a blast with my NeXT slab on the 'net, especially since adding the second NIC to the G3. Jeff -- Home of the TRS-80 Model 2000 FAQ File http://www.cchaven.com http://www.geocities.com/siliconvalley/lakes/6757 From bpope at wordstock.com Wed Nov 21 10:12:37 2001 From: bpope at wordstock.com (Bryan Pope) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:11:26 2005 Subject: OT: paging MAC expert(s) --- What's a Performa? In-Reply-To: <3B55D7F383B0D31197D9009027541CBF1170DEB9@cmiexch1.cmi.itds.com> from "Christopher Smith" at Nov 21, 01 09:44:44 am Message-ID: <200111211612.LAA30661@wordstock.com> > > What kind of bollocks is that? How do you expect to run a web > > browser without > > a TCP/IP stack? I suppose you wouldn't fancy Netscape on the > > Mac any more, > > since you had to buy MacTCP in order to run that. > > Buyt then again, what browser doesn't require a TCP/IP stack > > in order to be > > used online? > > I believe there was at least one MS-DOS browser that didn't (doesn't) > require a _separate_ stack. That is, since it is built into the browser. > > There is also slipknot(slipnot?), which acts as a front-end to a > shell-account with lynx. :) (That's an interesting program...) > omigod! Talk about latency issues!!! :D Bryan From rigdonj at intellistar.net Wed Nov 21 10:26:16 2001 From: rigdonj at intellistar.net (Joe) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:11:26 2005 Subject: Say it ain't so, Joe! In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20011112231821.03b2e220@enigma> Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20011121112616.007b4100@mailhost.intellistar.net> Hi Dan, At 11:20 PM 11/12/01 -0500, you wrote: > From the Classic Computer list: > > > I've had to dispose of all my classic computer stuff > >What? What happened? Pressure from the OL and I just got fed up with everything. > >You were my HP hero! You had all of the vintage HP gear >that I'm trying to collect! Well there's still a pile of the bigger and less popular HP stuff here if you want to come get it. Here's a list of what I can remember off the top of my head: Complete and working HP 150 and Touchscreen II systems with drives and manuals and SW, etc; a lot of HP 110s, again with manuals and SW; about 20 HP 9825s with loads of accessories; about 15 HP 85s again with loads of manuals, ROMS, etc; several HP 9920s including a full blown and loaded one that came from Litton Laser Systems; several 9826s and 9836s including a 9836CU; and bunches of interfaces and peripherals for the above. Also a dead 9830 and a dead 9821, parts of a 9835, several 9845s and at least two HP Integrals in unknown condition. Also a working HP 120 CPM machine with SW. But I don't have time to ship them so you HAVE TO come get them. I haven't decided what to do about the HP 9915s and the 9831 yet. All of the following are gone: ALL of the HP handheld calcs; all the extra HP SW paks and manuals; all the HP catalogs; all of the HP Journals; the HP 9100 and accessories; all the HP 97s, 9815s and small desktop calcs; the HP 125 CPM machine; all the AIM 65s; the Apple Lisas; the DEC 11/23 system; all the S-100 stuff except for a few Cromemco cases with backplanes; both Altairs; the Rubicon; the SB-180; all the HP 9000 series 300 machines; all six Osbornes; both Z-100s and all the manuals and extra parts; all the Intel and Motorola SBCs; the Tektronix 31 calc; the Tektronix 8051 computer and all accessories and manuals; the Tektronix CPM computer; the Intel 235 MDS; the Sony/Tektronix Logic Analyzers; the Dolch MPM computer/logic analyzer; ALL the general computer manuals and books; all the test equipment except for one OLD HP logic analyzer and all the machine tools and tooling except for the 12 x 48" lathe (it's spoken for but we have to tear down the building to get it out!) Joe From jhellige at earthlink.net Wed Nov 21 09:15:38 2001 From: jhellige at earthlink.net (Jeff Hellige) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:11:26 2005 Subject: OT: paging MAC expert(s) --- What's a Performa? In-Reply-To: <3B55D7F383B0D31197D9009027541CBF1170DEB8@cmiexch1.cmi.itds.com> References: <3B55D7F383B0D31197D9009027541CBF1170DEB8@cmiexch1.cmi.itds.com> Message-ID: <01Nov21.112717est.119343@gateway.mediacen.navy.mil> > > longer the case. In fact, so much wierd stuff goes on >> internally to the drive, >> since the controller function is dedicated on each drive, >> that it's hard to know >> what is different between two drives. > >Too true, again. I blame whoever decided IDE hard drives were good to >shoehorn into any system ;) (Maybe that was apple?) Actually, even the Amiga adopted IDE as it's standard hard disk interface before Apple did, as the Amiga 4000 (1992) came out roughly two years ahead of the Performa 630 (1994). Tandy was using the 8bit version of the IDE interface in it's SL/TL series machines as early as 1989, though only 4 drives were ever manufactured that were compatible with it. Jeff -- Home of the TRS-80 Model 2000 FAQ File http://www.cchaven.com http://www.geocities.com/siliconvalley/lakes/6757 From csmith at amdocs.com Wed Nov 21 10:23:24 2001 From: csmith at amdocs.com (Christopher Smith) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:11:26 2005 Subject: Toshiba Dynabook 286 software/DD disks Was: (no subject) Message-ID: <3B55D7F383B0D31197D9009027541CBF1170DEBB@cmiexch1.cmi.itds.com> -----Original Message----- From: joh869@aol.com [mailto:joh869@aol.com] Hi I need a systems disk that contains software for the Toshiba dynabook 286. Also where can I buy a low density floppy? You may -mail me with suggestions @ u-should-b@webtv.net I'm assuming that you mean double-density floppy, since that sounds about right for a 286. A quick yahoo search turns these up: http://www.athana.com/html/diskette.html http://www.filmemporium.com/shopsite_sc/store/html/data_storage.html http://www.amservices.com/amsionline/media.htm I don't know anything about these companies, never used them, but it seems that some of them even carry 8" disks (presumably soft-sectored) Regards, Chris From steven_j_robertson at hotmail.com Wed Nov 21 10:30:40 2001 From: steven_j_robertson at hotmail.com (Steve Robertson) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:11:26 2005 Subject: Say it ain't so, Joe! Message-ID: Joe, Was thinking about coming to the area to visit some friends on Friday. You gonna be around? SteveRob _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp From LFessen106 at aol.com Wed Nov 21 10:31:43 2001 From: LFessen106 at aol.com (LFessen106@aol.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:11:26 2005 Subject: Say it ain't so, Joe! Message-ID: Love to help "rescue" some of the HP stuff - where are you located? -Linc Fessenden In The Beginning there was nothing, which exploded - Yeah right... Calculating in binary code is as easy as 01,10,11. From dan at ekoan.com Wed Nov 21 10:53:07 2001 From: dan at ekoan.com (Dan Veeneman) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:11:26 2005 Subject: Mac Restore CDs/Manuals In-Reply-To: <3B55D7F383B0D31197D9009027541CBF1170DEBA@cmiexch1.cmi.itds .com> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20011121114725.02d6fd00@enigma> At 09:56 AM 11/21/01 -0600, you wrote: > > -----Original Message----- > > From: Rich Beaudry [mailto:r_beaudry@hotmail.com] > > > Same for hardcopy manuals. I have some .PDFs, but they're so > > clumsy ... If > > anyone has spare copies of manuals for this machine, > > especially any tech > > references or service manuals, I'll gladly pay postage, and > > some extra, for > > them.... > >I assume they exist somewhere, but the closest thing I've ever seen to a >tech reference or service manual for any macintosh was the Chilton's book on >macintosh repair. Apple published a series of manuals entitled "Inside Macintosh," volumes 3 and 4 of which I found in a thrift shop recently. They are for the "goldfish-bowl" MACs (copyright dates are 1985) and are primarily geared toward programmers, but there are some hardware diagrams and pin-outs (nothing that Tony couldn't figure out in less than 30 seconds, though...) Cheers, Dan From edick at idcomm.com Wed Nov 21 10:55:17 2001 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:11:26 2005 Subject: OT: paging MAC expert(s) --- What's a Performa? References: <3B55D7F383B0D31197D9009027541CBF1170DEB9@cmiexch1.cmi.itds.com> Message-ID: <005201c172ad$4c9ab300$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> Just to get a feel for it, I used ICOMM for a short while. It worked as a graphic web browser from a shell account. However, it did its dirty-work by sending commands to the shell, so it put a considerable burden on the host. As a result, it wasn't popular with the free shell account providers of the early '90's. I'm thinking that the way Icomm worked, the host computer's IP stack is what was doing the work. Dick ----- Original Message ----- From: "Christopher Smith" To: Sent: Wednesday, November 21, 2001 8:44 AM Subject: RE: OT: paging MAC expert(s) --- What's a Performa? > > -----Original Message----- > > From: Iggy Drougge [mailto:optimus@canit.se] > > > What kind of bollocks is that? How do you expect to run a web > > browser without > > a TCP/IP stack? I suppose you wouldn't fancy Netscape on the > > Mac any more, > > since you had to buy MacTCP in order to run that. > > But then again, what browser doesn't require a TCP/IP stack > > in order to be > > used online? > > I believe there was at least one MS-DOS browser that didn't (doesn't) > require a _separate_ stack. That is, since it is built into the browser. > > There is also slipknot(slipnot?), which acts as a front-end to a > shell-account with lynx. :) (That's an interesting program...) > > Regards, > > Chris > > > Christopher Smith, Perl Developer > Amdocs - Champaign, IL > > /usr/bin/perl -e ' > print((~"\x95\xc4\xe3"^"Just Another Perl Hacker.")."\x08!\n"); > ' > > > From mythtech at Mac.com Wed Nov 21 11:11:06 2001 From: mythtech at Mac.com (Chris) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:11:26 2005 Subject: Toshiba disk & DSDD floppy Message-ID: >DSDD 3.5 drives are rare too, as most dealers threw them away. I have a >small stash, but I'm haning on to them as they are used in Amigas. I have one DSDD 3.5" drive (720k drive). I *think* it works. It is a standard size 3.5" drive, but the face plate is part of the unit, and it is for a 5.25" hole, so you really need a 5.25 half height bay to fit it. I don't really need it if someone was on the search for one (sorry, missed the beginning of this thread) -chris From uban at ubanproductions.com Wed Nov 21 11:24:17 2001 From: uban at ubanproductions.com (Tom Uban) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:11:26 2005 Subject: I'm guessing you have solved this problem... In-Reply-To: References: <20011108003953.Y92508-100000@lepton.subatomix.com> Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.20011121112417.008c7100@ubanproductions.com> Hi Tony, What have you used to replace the various DEC bipolar ROMs in an 11/45 CPU? --tom From mythtech at Mac.com Wed Nov 21 11:45:23 2001 From: mythtech at Mac.com (Chris) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:11:26 2005 Subject: Mac Restore CDs/Manuals Message-ID: >>I assume they exist somewhere, but the closest thing I've ever seen to a >>tech reference or service manual for any macintosh was the Chilton's book on >>macintosh repair. > >Apple published a series of manuals entitled "Inside Macintosh," volumes >3 and 4 of which I found in a thrift shop recently. They are for the >"goldfish-bowl" >MACs (copyright dates are 1985) and are primarily geared toward programmers, >but there are some hardware diagrams and pin-outs (nothing that Tony couldn't >figure out in less than 30 seconds, though...) Actually, there are tech manuals that give breakdown and assembly, and part numbers for almost every mac, and apple product. They also include basic diagnostic. I believe they are the same manuals the apple authorized repair centers use (which is really sad, since the diagnostics are pathetically simple, so obviously apple doesn't expect their techs to have much of a brain) You can download the manuals from an Apple FTP site, the catch is however, you can't browse the contents of the ftp directory, so you need to know what the manual is you are after. Fortuantly, someone has put up a web site listing many of them (and links to the FTP site for easy download). The web site WAS: , alas as of just checking it now, it seems to be gone. Maybe someone will know a newer site? (thankfully I pulled down copies of everything I own or am after... now I just wish I had taken the time to pull everything available down) -chris From stanb at dial.pipex.com Wed Nov 21 02:43:50 2001 From: stanb at dial.pipex.com (Stan Barr) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:11:26 2005 Subject: OT: paging MAC expert(s) --- What's a Performa? In-Reply-To: Your message of "Tue, 20 Nov 2001 15:28:30 MST." <002b01c17212$aeb59c80$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> Message-ID: <200111210843.IAA09775@citadel.metropolis.local> Hi, "Richard Erlacher" said: > Well, that's good, but the ultimate end user has no Netscape experience, and > I've got not even enough to be dangerous. I never liked Nestcape because you > had to buy that %$#@! Trumpet Winsock to make it work, and that crapped up a lot > of other Windows functions. > > Nevertheless, I want to take a look at iCab. If it works easily enough and > lives in considerably less memory than Netscape, I'm all for it! > > Dick > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Stan Barr" > > > > It works pretty much the same as Netscape, just looks a bit different, > > (especially if you install alternave buttons etc.) - nothing you can't > > easily understand from a litle Netscape experience. > > Unfortuantely, the last time I looked the online help was available only in German! However if you turn on balloon help each function is well - if briefly - explained (in English!). -- Cheers, Stan Barr stanb@dial.pipex.com The future was never like this! From stanb at dial.pipex.com Wed Nov 21 02:37:54 2001 From: stanb at dial.pipex.com (Stan Barr) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:11:26 2005 Subject: OT: paging MAC expert(s) --- What's a Performa? In-Reply-To: Your message of "Tue, 20 Nov 2001 15:49:41 EST." <7A9BACCEF0171D4FB77019F5104CDD3722594D@jeffserver.tegjeff.com> Message-ID: <200111210837.IAA09707@citadel.metropolis.local> Hi, Douglas Quebbeman said: > > It works pretty much the same as Netscape, just looks a bit different, > > (especially if you install alternave buttons etc.) - nothing you can't > > easily understand from a litle Netscape experience. > > > > Now Cyberdog - that *was* different ;-) > > And still is. I've got it running on the WGS8150/80 sitting > behind me. But Cyberdog could well rise again, under Windows... Ve-e-e-ry Interesting! Yeah, I keep Cyberdog around if only to show people that web browsing doesn't *have* to look like Exploder/Nutscrape ;-) -- Cheers, Stan Barr stanb@dial.pipex.com The future was never like this! From stanb at dial.pipex.com Wed Nov 21 12:55:35 2001 From: stanb at dial.pipex.com (Stan Barr) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:11:26 2005 Subject: 50th anniversary of the routine business use of computers In-Reply-To: Your message of "Wed, 21 Nov 2001 07:37:50 MST." Message-ID: <200111211855.SAA14961@citadel.metropolis.local> Hi, "Feldman, Robert" said: > I was looking at the Economist (Nov 17th) at the library last night and saw > the following (p. 76) > > The Lyons Electronic Office (LEO) began use 11-17-1951 in a British catering > company. etc... See also: http://www.leo-computers.org.uk/ -- Cheers, Stan Barr stanb@dial.pipex.com The future was never like this! From jhellige at earthlink.net Wed Nov 21 05:50:06 2001 From: jhellige at earthlink.net (Jeff Hellige) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:11:26 2005 Subject: Radio Shack abandons components In-Reply-To: <000401c17286$f4e643c0$b97ba8c0@ne.mediaone.net> References: <000401c17286$f4e643c0$b97ba8c0@ne.mediaone.net> Message-ID: <01Nov21.144447est.119225@gateway.mediacen.navy.mil> >Tandy Computers sold out to AST (who also bought Grid)...part of the >deal was that AST computers were sold at Radio Shack, the deal didn't >last that long. AST also sold out to their majority investor (Samsung?) >when they were nearly out of business. Unrelated is the >RadioShack-Compaq deal...similar to deal cut by Sprint-RadioShack. If I recall correctly, it was mid-1993 when the sale took place. AST didn't waste any time trimming what had been Tandy's computer arm, shutting down a lot of it in the process. I always liked AST's products, such as the SixPack Plus expansion boards. AST had some interesting ideas as to CPU upgradibility with their '386 line as well. Jeff -- Home of the TRS-80 Model 2000 FAQ File http://www.cchaven.com http://www.geocities.com/siliconvalley/lakes/6757 From jott at mastif.ee.nd.edu Wed Nov 21 13:33:54 2001 From: jott at mastif.ee.nd.edu (John Ott) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:11:26 2005 Subject: HardCard driver disks In-Reply-To: <3BFB2208.E1D80B3E@oxford.net>; from dancohoe@oxford.net on Tue, Nov 20, 2001 at 10:39:52PM -0500 References: <3BFB2208.E1D80B3E@oxford.net> Message-ID: <20011121143354.B316@mastif> Hello - I could use one of these on my compaq portable with a 20 MB hardcard. John On Tue, Nov 20, 2001 at 10:39:52PM -0500, Dan Cohoe wrote: Vintage Computer Festival wrote: > > I came across a stash of HardCard driver diskettes today (360K 5.25"). > They say on the label that they are for the 20MB version, but I'm sure > they would work on the 40MB model as well. > > Anyhoo, I have three spare copies if anyone is interested. One to each > respondent. E-mail me your address and I'll get it out to you. Don't > worry about mailing costs. > > Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ > International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org > > * Old computing resources for business and academia at www.VintageTech.com * -- ************************************************************************ * * * * John Ott * Email: jott@hamming.ee.nd.edu * * 68906 Miami Rd. * * * Bremen, IN 46506 * Phone: (219) 631-7752 * * * Fax: (219) 631-9924 * * * * ************************************************************************ From bpope at wordstock.com Wed Nov 21 14:05:03 2001 From: bpope at wordstock.com (Bryan Pope) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:11:26 2005 Subject: Radio Shack abandons components In-Reply-To: <01Nov21.144447est.119225@gateway.mediacen.navy.mil> from "Jeff Hellige" at Nov 21, 01 07:50:06 am Message-ID: <200111212005.PAA16587@wordstock.com> > > >Tandy Computers sold out to AST (who also bought Grid)...part of the > >deal was that AST computers were sold at Radio Shack, the deal didn't > >last that long. AST also sold out to their majority investor (Samsung?) > >when they were nearly out of business. Unrelated is the > >RadioShack-Compaq deal...similar to deal cut by Sprint-RadioShack. > > If I recall correctly, it was mid-1993 when the sale took > place. AST didn't waste any time trimming what had been Tandy's > computer arm, shutting down a lot of it in the process. I always > liked AST's products, such as the SixPack Plus expansion boards. AST > had some interesting ideas as to CPU upgradibility with their '386 > line as well. > It is always nice to see a company buy out another company just so they can rape it for all its worth before throwing that companies technology in some vault so no one else can use it. Bryan From jrasite at eoni.com Wed Nov 21 14:08:52 2001 From: jrasite at eoni.com (Jim Arnott) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:11:26 2005 Subject: Mac Restore CDs/Manuals References: Message-ID: <3BFC09CD.4554797F@eoni.com> Unfortunately, Gamba's site has been closed by those folks at Apple that received their training from M$. Read "cease and desist". The Heretics sucked the site before his ISP cut it off. Try From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Nov 21 14:08:27 2001 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:11:26 2005 Subject: RA60 drives anywhere? And stuff... In-Reply-To: <20011120235152.A24911-100000@lepton.subatomix.com> from "Jeffrey S. Sharp" at Nov 20, 1 11:54:49 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 601 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20011121/56bf705a/attachment-0001.ksh From tothwolf at concentric.net Wed Nov 21 14:21:11 2001 From: tothwolf at concentric.net (Tothwolf) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:11:26 2005 Subject: Toshiba disk & DSDD floppy In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Wed, 21 Nov 2001, Chris wrote: > >DSDD 3.5 drives are rare too, as most dealers threw them away. I have a > >small stash, but I'm haning on to them as they are used in Amigas. > > I have one DSDD 3.5" drive (720k drive). I *think* it works. It is a > standard size 3.5" drive, but the face plate is part of the unit, and it > is for a 5.25" hole, so you really need a 5.25 half height bay to fit it. If his machine is a Toshiba laptop, they use a special drive anyway. If the drive acts funny, could be the cmos battery has died...I think those old Toshibas use a small nicad pack. -Toth From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Nov 21 14:13:40 2001 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:11:26 2005 Subject: 1771 floppy controller questions In-Reply-To: from "Tothwolf" at Nov 21, 1 03:18:36 am Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1924 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20011121/575ba43a/attachment-0001.ksh From edick at idcomm.com Wed Nov 21 14:40:38 2001 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:11:26 2005 Subject: OT: paging MAC expert(s) --- What's a Performa? References: <200111210837.IAA09707@citadel.metropolis.local> Message-ID: <000d01c172cc$c77df4a0$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> Well, both Netscape and Internet Explorer were based on the already quite complete work done on NCSA MOSAIC, which I used under Win3.1x for a time, along with NetCruiser, which was Netcom's offering for that purpose. Both of them looked quite adequate at the time, but the web content has "evolved" considerably. Both Netscape and Internet Explorer attempted to use what MOSAIC did already, plus they added mail capability to it, which made little sense at the time, to me at least. Email handlers were everywhere, but graphic web browsers were not so plentiful. Doing email through a shell account was pretty painful, with the slow serial link handlers that UNIX shell accounts offered. The Windows-based email handlers embedded in Internet Explorer, Netscape, etc, or Eudora, which was separate, were all MUCH easier and quicker to deal with. I've watched both Netscape and IE wander back and forth between higher and lower levels of integration but haven't seen much improvement. Of course, it not hard to confuse change with progress. Dick ----- Original Message ----- From: "Stan Barr" To: Sent: Wednesday, November 21, 2001 1:37 AM Subject: Re: OT: paging MAC expert(s) --- What's a Performa? > Hi, > > Douglas Quebbeman said: > > > > It works pretty much the same as Netscape, just looks a bit different, > > > (especially if you install alternave buttons etc.) - nothing you can't > > > easily understand from a litle Netscape experience. > > > > > > Now Cyberdog - that *was* different ;-) > > > > And still is. I've got it running on the WGS8150/80 sitting > > behind me. But Cyberdog could well rise again, under Windows... > > Ve-e-e-ry Interesting! > > Yeah, I keep Cyberdog around if only to show people that web browsing > doesn't *have* to look like Exploder/Nutscrape ;-) > -- > Cheers, > Stan Barr stanb@dial.pipex.com > > The future was never like this! > > > From edick at idcomm.com Wed Nov 21 14:46:34 2001 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:11:26 2005 Subject: 1771 floppy controller questions References: Message-ID: <001f01c172cd$9bcc3c80$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> For troubleshooting possible RAM problems, it's really easy simply to hook a 64Kx8 SRAM on top of the DRAMs, grabbing the addresses before the decoder and multiplexers, and use OR'd nCAS to the DRAMs as the output enable to the SRAM. You simply disable the data from the DRAMs by pulling the pins out of the sockets. The result is that your system works using the SRAM, yet you can poke around all you like in the DRAM array and the associated timing logic. Dick ----- Original Message ----- From: "Tony Duell" To: Sent: Wednesday, November 21, 2001 1:13 PM Subject: Re: 1771 floppy controller questions > > > > On Wed, 21 Nov 2001, Tony Duell wrote: > > > > > > makes sense that they changed that part of the design. I own both a model > > > > 3 and 4, neither of which currently work. Any ideas on where a service > > > > manual can be found for either of these? I also have a model 2 that worked > > > > > > I have at least schematics for the M3 and non-gate-array M4. What's the > > > problem with your machines? What do they do at switch-on? > > > > It has been a number of years since I powered them up. Right now I think > > they are both sitting disassembled in a couple of large boxes. I'm in the > > When yopu have time to get them out again, let us know (or let me know), > and we can discuss troubleshooting them. > > > process of construction of a building just for my old hardware, so once > > that is done, I'll pull both of them out and bench them and see what their > > problems were. I think the model 3 would start up, but just plain lock up > > about the time it was going to boot. I think it may be a ram problem. The > > Mybe RAM. Most disk problems on the M3 and M4 are either the 1793 chip > (I've had to replace a couple) or more likely that infernal ribbon cable > between the CPU board and the disk controller. If you don't care about > your machine being unoriginal, you can use 40 way IDC cable and > connectors to replace it (just use 1 row of pins in the connector to > replace the 20 pin SIL socket on the CPU board or disk controller). > You're only using 20 wires in the cable, which is something of a waste, > but it's the easiest fix I've found [1]. > > > model 4 didn't power up at all if I remember correctly. > > In which case check the outputs of the power supplies -- both of them -- > before doing anything else. > > [1] For the HP97 owners on this list, 26 way IDC cable/connectors and pin > headers can be made to replace the ribbon cable between the logic board > and the card reader. It cures a lot of card reader problems :-) > > -tony > > From mythtech at Mac.com Wed Nov 21 14:48:10 2001 From: mythtech at Mac.com (Chris) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:11:26 2005 Subject: Mac Restore CDs/Manuals Message-ID: >Unfortunately, Gamba's site has been closed by those folks at Apple that >received their training from M$. Read "cease and desist". The Heretics >sucked the site before his ISP cut it off. I knew he had some trouble originally. From the story I heard (well, peiced together), he originally was hosting the manuals directly. Apple complained, so he changed the links to their servers. I figured if Apple complained once, it was only a matter of time before he was shut down entirely. Thanks for the new link... this time I was smart enough to save the page locally, so I can stick it on my web site. I think I will take some time next week to just start pulling all the manuals down (CD-Rs are such a wonderful thing) -chris From bpope at wordstock.com Wed Nov 21 14:50:33 2001 From: bpope at wordstock.com (Bryan Pope) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:11:26 2005 Subject: RA60 drives anywhere? And stuff... In-Reply-To: from "Tony Duell" at Nov 21, 01 08:08:27 pm Message-ID: <200111212050.PAA28354@wordstock.com> > > > > > On Tue, 20 Nov 2001, Tony Duell wrote: > > > > > Last time I was in a PC shop, they were selling 'line printer > > > paper'... What was it? Poor-ish quality A4 sheets, like you'd use in > > > a laser printer or copier. Not fanfold, not sproketed, certainly not > > > greenbar. > > > > I bought a box of wide, greenbar paper at my local OfficeMax. They had > > quite a few boxes in inventory. > > I am pretty sure you can still get real fanfold paper over here (if not, > I've got a few boxes...). My comment was that now laser printer/copier > paper is called 'line printer paper' by clueless PC shops... > The company where I work still use dot-matrix printers with fanfold paper. I am a programmer here and would hate to use anything else for program listings! We also still use 5 1/4" diskettes for distribution of some of our software. Also 1200, 2400 and 9600 bps modems. And a lot of our software is still console based. Cheers, Bryan From egendorf at mit.edu Wed Nov 21 15:08:44 2001 From: egendorf at mit.edu (Andrew Egendorf) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:11:26 2005 Subject: Remington Rand 409-2/2R Message-ID: Hi! I am helping to gather original documents and/or artifacts concerning the Remington Rand 409-series computers for the Remington Rand museum being set up in Rowayton, CT. The models of interest are the 409-2 and the 409-2R. We are interested in documenting the location of all surviving artifacts, but also would like to acquire particularly interesting items by donation or purchase. If you have any original documents or artifacts (even as minor as Remington Rand brand punch cards), please e-mail me at: egendorf@mit.edu. Thanks. From dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com Wed Nov 21 15:19:00 2001 From: dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com (Douglas Quebbeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:11:26 2005 Subject: 50th anniversary of the routine business use of computers Message-ID: <7A9BACCEF0171D4FB77019F5104CDD3722595E@jeffserver.tegjeff.com> > "Feldman, Robert" said: > > I was looking at the Economist (Nov 17th) at the library last night and saw > > the following (p. 76) > > > > The Lyons Electronic Office (LEO) began use 11-17-1951 in a British catering > > company. > > etc... > > See also: http://www.leo-computers.org.uk/ Business was fast on the heels of government... earlier that year in June, The UNIVAC I was installed a few blocks from where I'm typing this (historical nobody-ever-heard-of-Jeffersonville-Indiana). -dq From dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com Wed Nov 21 15:44:31 2001 From: dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com (Douglas Quebbeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:11:26 2005 Subject: Radio Shack abandons components Message-ID: <7A9BACCEF0171D4FB77019F5104CDD3722595F@jeffserver.tegjeff.com> > It is always nice to see a company buy out another company just so they can > rape it for all its worth before throwing that companies technology in some > vault so no one else can use it. Can you say "Hewlett-Packard"? Note to HP: Liberate the Apollo systems NOW! -dq From dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com Wed Nov 21 15:52:46 2001 From: dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com (Douglas Quebbeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:11:26 2005 Subject: Mac Restore CDs/Manuals Message-ID: <7A9BACCEF0171D4FB77019F5104CDD37225960@jeffserver.tegjeff.com> > Unfortunately, Gamba's site has been closed by those folks at Apple that > received their training from M$. Read "cease and desist". The Heretics > sucked the site before his ISP cut it off. I'm thinking that perhaps Apple knew how to do this first, and may well have gotten the leson from Xerox.. >Try > > Nice! Grabbed quite a few of these... From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Nov 21 14:32:15 2001 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:11:27 2005 Subject: Mac Restore CDs/Manuals In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20011121114725.02d6fd00@enigma> from "Dan Veeneman" at Nov 21, 1 11:53:07 am Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 890 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20011121/0873f536/attachment-0001.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Nov 21 14:35:02 2001 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:11:27 2005 Subject: I'm guessing you have solved this problem... In-Reply-To: <3.0.5.32.20011121112417.008c7100@ubanproductions.com> from "Tom Uban" at Nov 21, 1 11:24:17 am Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 629 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20011121/5cba9c25/attachment-0001.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Nov 21 15:32:39 2001 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:11:27 2005 Subject: Mac Restore CDs/Manuals In-Reply-To: from "Chris" at Nov 21, 1 12:45:23 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 2563 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20011121/64f2c0f6/attachment-0001.ksh From rigdonj at intellistar.net Wed Nov 21 16:09:32 2001 From: rigdonj at intellistar.net (Joe) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:11:27 2005 Subject: Say it ain't so, Joe! In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20011121170932.007b9810@mailhost.intellistar.net> Hi Steve, You bet! What time will you be around? I just send you a message about an Intel MDS-800. Joe At 11:30 AM 11/21/01 -0500, you wrote: >Joe, > >Was thinking about coming to the area to visit some friends on Friday. You >gonna be around? > >SteveRob > >_________________________________________________________________ >Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp > > From rigdonj at intellistar.net Wed Nov 21 16:11:53 2001 From: rigdonj at intellistar.net (Joe) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:11:27 2005 Subject: Say it ain't so, Joe! In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20011121171153.007a3eb0@mailhost.intellistar.net> Linc, I'm on the east side of Orlando, Florida. I'm two miles north of UCF (University of Central Florida) and between UCF and the town of Oviedo. I'm just off of Alafaya trail. My address is 2960 Lowery Dr. Oviedo, 32765 you can find it on any of the on-line maps. You're welcome to whatever you can haul away. Joe At 11:31 AM 11/21/01 EST, you wrote: >Love to help "rescue" some of the HP stuff - where are you located? > >-Linc Fessenden > >In The Beginning there was nothing, which exploded - Yeah right... > >Calculating in binary code is as easy as 01,10,11. > > > From jss at subatomix.com Wed Nov 21 16:27:34 2001 From: jss at subatomix.com (Jeffrey S. Sharp) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:11:27 2005 Subject: Interesting find In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20011121162406.J26523-100000@lepton.subatomix.com> All right, now this has me irked. The 9825 is still at the place, but they won't sell it to me today. Their normal hours are 8-5 MTWF, but they only sell "to the public" on Tuesday from 11-4. How whacked up is that!? -- Jeffrey S. Sharp jss@subatomix.com From mythtech at Mac.com Wed Nov 21 16:58:31 2001 From: mythtech at Mac.com (Chris) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:11:27 2005 Subject: Mac Restore CDs/Manuals Message-ID: >I assume these are boardswapper guides and don't include useful >information like schematics, right? Exactly. They are wonderful when you are trying to do things like open a Powerbook to repair the latch spring or the mouse button (both things that are prone to break on the 190/5300/3400/G3 case design), but totally useless if you want to know how to repair the fried power supply on a 1400 (swapping yes, repairing no). But that jives with apple and the Mac... they have ALWAYS had a board swap approach to repair. Even when the repair is something simple. So if that is all they approve doing, why bother making public (or in the case of these, pseudo public) manuals that cover anything more detailed. I would LOVE to find another good book on actually repairing Macs (The Dead Mac Scrolls was wonderful, but it only covers thru the II IIRC... I want something that will tell me how to get my PB 1400s power supply working again, or repair/replace the fried printer port on my 6500... that is the kind of book I want to find) >Now, I guess I've come to expect that computer service centres can't >trace a fault in a circuit of 4 components. But if they're going to >board-swap, shouldn't they just swap the defective board? And not also >replace an expensive PSU that's got nothing wrong with it? I know around here, it is very hard to find a "decent" repair shop. That is, one that knows what they are doing, won't try to rip you off, and can do economical repairs. For a while, the local CompUSA (big national computer retail chain for those not in the US), had a GREAT tech. He could do component level repairs, and did them on a regular basis. It was not unusual to take a computer in, and find that it was repaired for the diagnostic fee ($65), plus a dollar or two in parts.... guess what... the CompUSA fired the guy... why? Because they could make more money selling new boards then repairing the broken ones. They looked at it in terms of, they can make no markup on a 50 cent transistor, and no additional labor for the guy to spend 5 minutes replacing it... OR, they can make a 20-30% markup on a new motherboard, AND 2 hours of labor (@ $65/hr) for the tech to replace it, and reset the windows installation to accept it... AND they could use brain dead, no training people at $10/hr to do the work (compared to I am sure a much higher rate for the guy that knew what he was doing). And then you just have apple, that doesn't authorize "custom" repairs on its parts... if it is warranty, or an "authorized" apple repair, it is done as a board swap, and only to the detail they specify (which in many cases means far more gets replaced then needed)... the tech mentioned above used to ask, do you want an apple authorized repair (needed if it was warranty, or you wanted to maintain a warranty if the repair itself isn't covered), or did you want an unauthorized, but cheaper and faster repair. Most people I know took the unauthorized repair for all units out of warranty (can't void what you don't have) -chris From spectre at stockholm.ptloma.edu Wed Nov 21 17:36:04 2001 From: spectre at stockholm.ptloma.edu (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:11:27 2005 Subject: OT: paging MAC expert(s) --- What's a Performa? In-Reply-To: <000d01c172cc$c77df4a0$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> from Richard Erlacher at "Nov 21, 1 01:40:38 pm" Message-ID: <200111212336.PAA12136@stockholm.ptloma.edu> > Doing email through a shell account was pretty painful, with the slow serial > link handlers that UNIX shell accounts offered. The Windows-based email > handlers embedded in Internet Explorer, Netscape, etc, or Eudora, which was > separate, were all MUCH easier and quicker to deal with. Maybe Pine sucked over a serial line, but Elm is much less termcap-spendy. I still use Elm to read my E-mail. Man was meant to read mail on-spool. -- ----------------------------- personal page: http://www.armory.com/~spectre/ -- Cameron Kaiser, Point Loma Nazarene University * ckaiser@stockholm.ptloma.edu -- The new Tourette Syndrome movie: Twitch and Shout! -- John Waters ---------- From tothwolf at concentric.net Wed Nov 21 17:43:18 2001 From: tothwolf at concentric.net (Tothwolf) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:11:27 2005 Subject: 1771 floppy controller questions In-Reply-To: <001f01c172cd$9bcc3c80$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> Message-ID: On Wed, 21 Nov 2001, Richard Erlacher wrote: > From: "Tony Duell" > > > Mybe RAM. Most disk problems on the M3 and M4 are either the 1793 chip > > (I've had to replace a couple) or more likely that infernal ribbon cable > > between the CPU board and the disk controller. If you don't care about > > your machine being unoriginal, you can use 40 way IDC cable and > > connectors to replace it (just use 1 row of pins in the connector to > > replace the 20 pin SIL socket on the CPU board or disk controller). > > You're only using 20 wires in the cable, which is something of a waste, > > but it's the easiest fix I've found [1]. > > For troubleshooting possible RAM problems, it's really easy simply to hook a > 64Kx8 SRAM on top of the DRAMs, grabbing the addresses before the decoder and > multiplexers, and use OR'd nCAS to the DRAMs as the output enable to the SRAM. > You simply disable the data from the DRAMs by pulling the pins out of the > sockets. The result is that your system works using the SRAM, yet you can poke > around all you like in the DRAM array and the associated timing logic. I bought a used dip style dram tester set about a year ago. It only cost me $5, and I figured it might be useful for testing all the old 64k and 256k drams I seem to run into in old pcs. I haven't yet had a chance to use it yet. Maybe it will help with these old boxes... -Toth From spectre at stockholm.ptloma.edu Wed Nov 21 17:47:25 2001 From: spectre at stockholm.ptloma.edu (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:11:27 2005 Subject: NeXTs (was Re: Radio Shack abandons components) In-Reply-To: <01Nov21.111926est.119343@gateway.mediacen.navy.mil> from Jeff Hellige at "Nov 21, 1 11:07:47 am" Message-ID: <200111212347.PAA12218@stockholm.ptloma.edu> > > and my NeXT machines. My Dimension cube is fully outfitted and on > >the 'net. The only piece of NeXT hardware that I need is a > >second NeXT color printer for the slab and a Turbo motherboard for > >the cube...unless Santa wants to drop a Nitro or Pyro board in my > >stocking! > > You have a Dimension Cube and you still want more??! Some > people are never happy! I switched my LAN at home from the trial > of Surfdoubler to the registered IPNetRouter and am having a blast > with my NeXT slab on the 'net, especially since adding the second NIC > to the G3. I'd still like to get my hands on *a* NeXT. Does someone have some extras stockpiled somewhere they might be willing to do a deal with? Somenoe on the list a while back found a whole load of them but I never heard back from the guy and I don't remember who that was, if you're still out there and still have some and you read sentences this awkward. :-) -- ----------------------------- personal page: http://www.armory.com/~spectre/ -- Cameron Kaiser, Point Loma Nazarene University * ckaiser@stockholm.ptloma.edu -- Life is like a simile. ----------------------------------------------------- From edick at idcomm.com Wed Nov 21 17:42:50 2001 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:11:27 2005 Subject: I'm guessing you have solved this problem... References: Message-ID: <002d01c172e6$3b868240$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> Just how fast do these devices have to be, and how deep are they? I've got some 35ns 8kx8 CMOS EPROMs, in skinny DIP packages, and I'd imagine that other configurations are out there as well. These are contemporaries of the 25ns 22V10 UV-erasable PALs from CYPRESS. That would date them about 1990. Small bipolar PROMs were often used like PALs, which were not yet popular, or were more expensive than the PROMs. I've not seen EPROMs that small, however, but it's likely a big EPROM would work if it's fast enough. In a case where the PROM is a logic element rather than a program store, a PAL could well be substituted. Dick ----- Original Message ----- From: "Tony Duell" To: Sent: Wednesday, November 21, 2001 1:35 PM Subject: Re: I'm guessing you have solved this problem... > > > > Hi Tony, > > Presumably this is directed at me? > > > > > What have you used to replace the various DEC bipolar ROMs in an 11/45 > > CPU? > > I've never had to replace one. If I did, I'd try to get a similar bipolar > PROM from any manufacturer (there are still quite a number around, even > if they're not being made) and program it from the tables in the > printset. > > Other than that, I'm not sure. This sort of logic is not going to fit > well into an FPGA or CPLD, I think. Are there fast enough EPROMS now (I'm > out of touch with the latest devices, but I think I remember seeing some > fairly fast devices in the databooks). > > -tony > > From tothwolf at concentric.net Wed Nov 21 18:05:24 2001 From: tothwolf at concentric.net (Tothwolf) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:11:27 2005 Subject: 1771 floppy controller questions In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Wed, 21 Nov 2001, Tony Duell wrote: > > It has been a number of years since I powered them up. Right now I think > > they are both sitting disassembled in a couple of large boxes. I'm in the > > When yopu have time to get them out again, let us know (or let me know), > and we can discuss troubleshooting them. It's more a matter of room than time right now, as my old "shop" is packed floor to ceiling with computers, parts, and so on. My benches are also currently covered up with even more parts and boxes. > > process of construction of a building just for my old hardware, so once > > that is done, I'll pull both of them out and bench them and see what their > > problems were. I think the model 3 would start up, but just plain lock up > > about the time it was going to boot. I think it may be a ram problem. The > > Mybe RAM. Most disk problems on the M3 and M4 are either the 1793 chip > (I've had to replace a couple) or more likely that infernal ribbon cable > between the CPU board and the disk controller. If you don't care about > your machine being unoriginal, you can use 40 way IDC cable and > connectors to replace it (just use 1 row of pins in the connector to > replace the 20 pin SIL socket on the CPU board or disk controller). > You're only using 20 wires in the cable, which is something of a waste, > but it's the easiest fix I've found [1]. I seem to remember one of these machines had a chip in one of the ram banks that was missing a pin. It looked like it had corroded off. It was a ceramic package with gold plated leads. The ribbon in both computers was in somewhat bad shape. I was planning to replace it with either a similar cable, or an IDC cable, as you suggested. My model 1's keyboard cable had the same problem, and I replaced it with a short bit of ribbon cable soldered directly to the boards. I'm planning to replace that again with something better the next time I work on it. > > model 4 didn't power up at all if I remember correctly. > > In which case check the outputs of the power supplies -- both of them -- > before doing anything else. I really don't remember if I got that far with the model 4. I may not have even checked the 2 switching supplies, since at the time I bought it, I didn't have any free time to spend on troubleshooting. I think I saw some sort of temperature alarm/sensor plugged into the output of one of the supplies in one of these machines. Was that a 3rd party add-on or something that came standard? -Toth From tothwolf at concentric.net Wed Nov 21 18:12:47 2001 From: tothwolf at concentric.net (Tothwolf) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:11:27 2005 Subject: OT: paging MAC expert(s) --- What's a Performa? In-Reply-To: <200111212336.PAA12136@stockholm.ptloma.edu> Message-ID: On Wed, 21 Nov 2001, Cameron Kaiser wrote: > > Doing email through a shell account was pretty painful, with the slow serial > > link handlers that UNIX shell accounts offered. The Windows-based email > > handlers embedded in Internet Explorer, Netscape, etc, or Eudora, which was > > separate, were all MUCH easier and quicker to deal with. > > Maybe Pine sucked over a serial line, but Elm is much less termcap-spendy. I > still use Elm to read my E-mail. Man was meant to read mail on-spool. Pine...Elm...Mutt...as long as its a console based utility, I'm happy :P -Toth From mythtech at Mac.com Wed Nov 21 18:15:35 2001 From: mythtech at Mac.com (Chris) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:11:27 2005 Subject: NeXTs Message-ID: >I'd still like to get my hands on *a* NeXT. Does someone have some >extras stockpiled somewhere they might be willing to do a deal with? >Somenoe on the list a while back found a whole load of them but I >never heard back from the guy and I don't remember who that was, if >you're still out there and still have some and you read sentences this >awkward. :-) For fear of sounding like an AOL'er... ME TOO!!! -chris From jpero at sympatico.ca Wed Nov 21 13:18:48 2001 From: jpero at sympatico.ca (jpero@sympatico.ca) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:11:27 2005 Subject: 1771 floppy controller questions In-Reply-To: References: <001f01c172cd$9bcc3c80$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> Message-ID: <20011122001522.NNIZ13234.tomts8-srv.bellnexxia.net@duron> > Date: Wed, 21 Nov 2001 17:43:18 -0600 (CST) > From: Tothwolf > To: > Subject: Re: 1771 floppy controller questions > Reply-to: classiccmp@classiccmp.org > I bought a used dip style dram tester set about a year ago. It only cost > me $5, and I figured it might be useful for testing all the old 64k and > 256k drams I seem to run into in old pcs. I haven't yet had a chance to > use it yet. Maybe it will help with these old boxes... Does work great but I like the kind that allows you to stress DRAM by "overclocking" beyond it's speed rating by twisting that knob. Example, that part fall over at just 3ns over rated speed, naah plonk! It will fail running warm anyway when machine is closed up. Only limitation it only works w/ 256K and 1M, 1 bit and 4 bits. Cheers, Wizard > > -Toth From tothwolf at concentric.net Wed Nov 21 18:18:25 2001 From: tothwolf at concentric.net (Tothwolf) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:11:27 2005 Subject: Mac Restore CDs/Manuals In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Wed, 21 Nov 2001, Tony Duell wrote: > YEs, they're pretty minimal on the hardware side. Apparently you weren't > supposed to hack the hardware if you bought a Mac. Never stopped me.... I have a non working 128k unit I'd sure like to get around to fixing...It actually worked before I located a keyboard and mouse for it, I think I used the wrong type of keyboard cable. When I powered it up with the keyboard, heard a snap, and it didn't work anymore :/ -Toth From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Nov 21 18:02:06 2001 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:11:27 2005 Subject: Mac Restore CDs/Manuals In-Reply-To: from "Chris" at Nov 21, 1 05:58:31 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 4024 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20011122/f3450e0a/attachment-0001.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Nov 21 18:07:09 2001 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:11:27 2005 Subject: I'm guessing you have solved this problem... In-Reply-To: <002d01c172e6$3b868240$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> from "Richard Erlacher" at Nov 21, 1 04:42:50 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1528 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20011122/e8384654/attachment-0001.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Nov 21 18:17:44 2001 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:11:27 2005 Subject: 1771 floppy controller questions In-Reply-To: from "Tothwolf" at Nov 21, 1 06:05:24 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 3207 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20011122/de6801e4/attachment-0001.ksh From LFessen106 at aol.com Wed Nov 21 18:32:04 2001 From: LFessen106 at aol.com (LFessen106@aol.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:11:27 2005 Subject: Say it ain't so, Joe! Message-ID: <67.1d3a9a5a.292da185@aol.com> In a message dated Wed, 21 Nov 2001 5:15:36 PM Eastern Standard Time, Joe writes: > Linc, > > I'm on the east side of Orlando, Florida. I'm two miles north of UCF > (University of Central Florida) and between UCF and the town of Oviedo. > I'm just off of Alafaya trail. My address is 2960 Lowery Dr. Oviedo, 32765 > you can find it on any of the on-line maps. You're welcome to whatever you > can haul away. > > Joe > > At 11:31 AM 11/21/01 EST, you wrote: > >Love to help "rescue" some of the HP stuff - where are you located? > > > >-Linc Fessenden > > > >In The Beginning there was nothing, which exploded - Yeah right... > > > >Calculating in binary code is as easy as 01,10,11. > > > > > > Wow, wish I could get down there - I am way up in PA.... From optimus at canit.se Wed Nov 21 17:57:54 2001 From: optimus at canit.se (Iggy Drougge) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:11:27 2005 Subject: Toshiba disk & DSDD floppy In-Reply-To: <3BFBD44D.EBABADD5@ccp.com> Message-ID: <465.726T2700T576665optimus@canit.se> Gary Hildebrand skrev: >DSDD 3.5 drives are rare too, as most dealers threw them away. I have a >small stash, but I'm haning on to them as they are used in Amigas. Using HD drives is AFAIK generally no problem in Amigas. It's usually a matter of jumpering the things right. I can't see any reason why the Toshiba would mind a HD drive, either. -- En ligne avec Thor 2.6a. Was ist ein Erwachsener? Ein Kind, das vom Alter aufgepumpt ist. --- Simone de Beauvoir From optimus at canit.se Wed Nov 21 18:08:46 2001 From: optimus at canit.se (Iggy Drougge) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:11:27 2005 Subject: OT: paging MAC expert(s) --- What's a Performa? In-Reply-To: <01Nov21.112717est.119343@gateway.mediacen.navy.mil> Message-ID: <859.726T2300T685793optimus@canit.se> Jeff Hellige skrev: >>Too true, again. I blame whoever decided IDE hard drives were good to >>shoehorn into any system ;) (Maybe that was apple?) > Actually, even the Amiga adopted IDE as it's standard hard >disk interface before Apple did, as the Amiga 4000 (1992) came out >roughly two years ahead of the Performa 630 (1994). Tandy was using >the 8bit version of the IDE interface in it's SL/TL series machines >as early as 1989, though only 4 drives were ever manufactured that >were compatible with it. The Commodore A590 controller (released in 1987?) also had an XT-IDE controller on its PCB in addition to the SCSI interface. It was a cheap way for C= to add small drives into the A590 case. -- En ligne avec Thor 2.6a. Sagt, ist noch ein Land, au?er Deutschland, wo man die Nase eher r?mpfen lernt als putzen? --- Georg Christoph Lichtenberg From optimus at canit.se Wed Nov 21 18:12:29 2001 From: optimus at canit.se (Iggy Drougge) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:11:27 2005 Subject: OT: paging MAC expert(s) --- What's a Performa? In-Reply-To: <3B55D7F383B0D31197D9009027541CBF1170DEB9@cmiexch1.cmi.itds.com> Message-ID: <1137.726T1450T725031optimus@canit.se> Christopher Smith skrev: >> -----Original Message----- >> From: Iggy Drougge [mailto:optimus@canit.se] >> What kind of bollocks is that? How do you expect to run a web >> browser without >> a TCP/IP stack? I suppose you wouldn't fancy Netscape on the >> Mac any more, >> since you had to buy MacTCP in order to run that. >> Buyt then again, what browser doesn't require a TCP/IP stack >> in order to be >> used online? >I believe there was at least one MS-DOS browser that didn't (doesn't) >require a _separate_ stack. That is, since it is built into the browser. Now, there's a stupid idea. What a stupid, stupid idea. Let's all laugh and point at the stupid browser and its stupid creators. Stupid, stupid, stupid. >There is also slipknot(slipnot?), which acts as a front-end to a >shell-account with lynx. :) (That's an interesting program...) Agreed, that's an interesting program. There was a similar contraption for the Amiga, called MLink, though that did AFAIK behave as a bsdsocket.library so that one might run most normal applications. -- En ligne avec Thor 2.6a. Computer programmers know how to use their hardware. From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Nov 21 18:28:12 2001 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:11:27 2005 Subject: Mac Restore CDs/Manuals In-Reply-To: from "Tothwolf" at Nov 21, 1 06:18:25 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1010 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20011122/f1ed7186/attachment-0001.ksh From edick at idcomm.com Wed Nov 21 18:40:49 2001 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:11:27 2005 Subject: 1771 floppy controller questions References: Message-ID: <000e01c172ee$555b1520$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> You'll want to be careful with the early DRAMs, as they used 3 supply rails, and your tester of 5-volt-only DRAMs may die from application to a 3-supply DRAM. Dick ----- Original Message ----- From: "Tothwolf" To: Sent: Wednesday, November 21, 2001 4:43 PM Subject: Re: 1771 floppy controller questions > On Wed, 21 Nov 2001, Richard Erlacher wrote: > > From: "Tony Duell" > > > > > Mybe RAM. Most disk problems on the M3 and M4 are either the 1793 chip > > > (I've had to replace a couple) or more likely that infernal ribbon cable > > > between the CPU board and the disk controller. If you don't care about > > > your machine being unoriginal, you can use 40 way IDC cable and > > > connectors to replace it (just use 1 row of pins in the connector to > > > replace the 20 pin SIL socket on the CPU board or disk controller). > > > You're only using 20 wires in the cable, which is something of a waste, > > > but it's the easiest fix I've found [1]. > > > > For troubleshooting possible RAM problems, it's really easy simply to hook a > > 64Kx8 SRAM on top of the DRAMs, grabbing the addresses before the decoder and > > multiplexers, and use OR'd nCAS to the DRAMs as the output enable to the SRAM. > > You simply disable the data from the DRAMs by pulling the pins out of the > > sockets. The result is that your system works using the SRAM, yet you can poke > > around all you like in the DRAM array and the associated timing logic. > > I bought a used dip style dram tester set about a year ago. It only cost > me $5, and I figured it might be useful for testing all the old 64k and > 256k drams I seem to run into in old pcs. I haven't yet had a chance to > use it yet. Maybe it will help with these old boxes... > > -Toth > > From edick at idcomm.com Wed Nov 21 18:48:22 2001 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:11:27 2005 Subject: 1771 floppy controller questions References: Message-ID: <001601c172ef$62e353a0$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> Back in the very late '70's a product similar to flex PCB material was introduced as a replacement for a ribbon cable, that fit in a 20-pin SIP socket, in this case, yet weren't custom circuits. I've got some of that stuff around, as a sample pack I got back then yet haven't used. Unfortunately, when I opened them to examine 'em, I didn't save the label, so I can't give you a product name. I thought of this bacause ribbon cable soldered to PCB's always seemed to me to be a source of trouble. I had keyboards connected with soldered ribbon for some time and it seems to me that I was frequently restripping and resoldering, while those attached with connectors occasionally required that I check that the connectors were securely plugged, but nothing else. Dick ----- Original Message ----- From: "Tothwolf" To: Sent: Wednesday, November 21, 2001 5:05 PM Subject: Re: 1771 floppy controller questions > On Wed, 21 Nov 2001, Tony Duell wrote: > > > > It has been a number of years since I powered them up. Right now I think > > > they are both sitting disassembled in a couple of large boxes. I'm in the > > > > When yopu have time to get them out again, let us know (or let me know), > > and we can discuss troubleshooting them. > > It's more a matter of room than time right now, as my old "shop" is packed > floor to ceiling with computers, parts, and so on. My benches are also > currently covered up with even more parts and boxes. > > > > process of construction of a building just for my old hardware, so once > > > that is done, I'll pull both of them out and bench them and see what their > > > problems were. I think the model 3 would start up, but just plain lock up > > > about the time it was going to boot. I think it may be a ram problem. The > > > > Mybe RAM. Most disk problems on the M3 and M4 are either the 1793 chip > > (I've had to replace a couple) or more likely that infernal ribbon cable > > between the CPU board and the disk controller. If you don't care about > > your machine being unoriginal, you can use 40 way IDC cable and > > connectors to replace it (just use 1 row of pins in the connector to > > replace the 20 pin SIL socket on the CPU board or disk controller). > > You're only using 20 wires in the cable, which is something of a waste, > > but it's the easiest fix I've found [1]. > > I seem to remember one of these machines had a chip in one of the ram > banks that was missing a pin. It looked like it had corroded off. It was a > ceramic package with gold plated leads. > > The ribbon in both computers was in somewhat bad shape. I was planning to > replace it with either a similar cable, or an IDC cable, as you suggested. > My model 1's keyboard cable had the same problem, and I replaced it with a > short bit of ribbon cable soldered directly to the boards. I'm planning to > replace that again with something better the next time I work on it. > > > > model 4 didn't power up at all if I remember correctly. > > > > In which case check the outputs of the power supplies -- both of them -- > > before doing anything else. > > I really don't remember if I got that far with the model 4. I may not have > even checked the 2 switching supplies, since at the time I bought it, I > didn't have any free time to spend on troubleshooting. > > I think I saw some sort of temperature alarm/sensor plugged into the > output of one of the supplies in one of these machines. Was that a 3rd > party add-on or something that came standard? > > -Toth > > From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Wed Nov 21 18:52:31 2001 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (Ben Franchuk) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:11:27 2005 Subject: OT: paging MAC expert(s) --- What's a Performa? References: Message-ID: <3BFC4C4F.455A213C@jetnet.ab.ca> Tothwolf wrote: > > On Wed, 21 Nov 2001, Cameron Kaiser wrote: > > > > Doing email through a shell account was pretty painful, with the slow serial > > > link handlers that UNIX shell accounts offered. The Windows-based email > > > handlers embedded in Internet Explorer, Netscape, etc, or Eudora, which was > > > separate, were all MUCH easier and quicker to deal with. > > > > Maybe Pine sucked over a serial line, but Elm is much less termcap-spendy. I > > still use Elm to read my E-mail. Man was meant to read mail on-spool. > > Pine...Elm...Mutt...as long as its a console based utility, I'm happy :P > > -Toth I still use netscape for mail. When I got linux to play with I could never find a mail server? program that would read mail in the POP format. Netscape works fine for now.Ben Franchuk. -- Live "Pre-historic Cpu's" -- and you thought they were extinct. www.jetnet.ab.ca/users/bfranchuk/index.html From donm at cts.com Wed Nov 21 18:59:10 2001 From: donm at cts.com (Don Maslin) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:11:27 2005 Subject: Mac Restore CDs/Manuals In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Wed, 21 Nov 2001, Tothwolf wrote: > On Wed, 21 Nov 2001, Tony Duell wrote: > > > YEs, they're pretty minimal on the hardware side. Apparently you weren't > > supposed to hack the hardware if you bought a Mac. Never stopped me.... > > I have a non working 128k unit I'd sure like to get around to fixing...It > actually worked before I located a keyboard and mouse for it, I think I > used the wrong type of keyboard cable. When I powered it up with the > keyboard, heard a snap, and it didn't work anymore :/ > > -Toth Did you check the fuse inside the PSU? - don From mythtech at Mac.com Wed Nov 21 19:11:17 2001 From: mythtech at Mac.com (Chris) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:11:27 2005 Subject: Mac Restore CDs/Manuals Message-ID: >I have a non working 128k unit I'd sure like to get around to fixing...It >actually worked before I located a keyboard and mouse for it, I think I >used the wrong type of keyboard cable. When I powered it up with the >keyboard, heard a snap, and it didn't work anymore :/ YIKES! Yeah, the keyboard cable is supposed to be straight pinned (or was that cross pinned... no it was straight pinned). A standard phone cable is cross pinned (or was that straight pinned... no was cross pinned... LOL). If you use a standard phone cable, you will fry the keyboard controller chip. I am sure that was the snap you heard. You can always use the mouse and the Key Caps desk accessory, type by clicking the letters, then choose cut and paste to move it to whatever you are trying to type in... PITA, but it actually does work (I had to do it once when my sister took the keyboard away from me, and I had to get a paper finished for school... it took me all night, but I finished it... and promptly beat the stuffing out of her the next morning) -chris From edick at idcomm.com Wed Nov 21 19:14:17 2001 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:11:27 2005 Subject: I'm guessing you have solved this problem... References: Message-ID: <002601c172f3$01f77ae0$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> see inline comments, plz Dick ----- Original Message ----- From: "Tony Duell" To: Sent: Wednesday, November 21, 2001 5:07 PM Subject: Re: I'm guessing you have solved this problem... > > > > Just how fast do these devices have to be, and how deep are they? I've got some > > 10's of ns at worst. And typically 256*4 bits or so. > So those would be 82S129's or the like? There are some such devices that still show up in popular surplus supplies. > > > 35ns 8kx8 CMOS EPROMs, in skinny DIP packages, and I'd imagine that other > > I suspect those would be fine for many of the PROMs in old minicomputers... > > > configurations are out there as well. These are contemporaries of the 25ns > > 22V10 UV-erasable PALs from CYPRESS. That would date them about 1990. > > > > Small bipolar PROMs were often used like PALs, which were not yet popular, or > > In the case of the 11/45 (1972), I don't think PALs were even available > at the time it was made. > > > were more expensive than the PROMs. I've not seen EPROMs that small, however, > > but it's likely a big EPROM would work if it's fast enough. In a case where the > > Of course it would. EPROMs never need a refresh (for obvious reasons), so > it's safe to tie unused address inputs low and to program the required > pattern into the first few words of the EPROM. I don't see how that could > ever not work. > > > PROM is a logic element rather than a program store, a PAL could well be > > substituted. > > Well, if you want to take a dump of the PROM, work out the logic > equations from it, then fit them into a PAL, and get it working, good > luck :-) > The PROM is listed as a truth-table, right? The only ABEL version I used simply took a truth table as input. That wouldn't take much processing. > > Yes, some PROMs were used as logic functions rather than (say) microcode > store. But it's not that easy to replace them with PALs (it's possible in > some cases to fit the logic into a small-ish PAL). It's a lot easier to > use a PROM/EPROM device. > If one doesn't have a suitable bit of software, that Quine-McLuskey (?) method that I learned about in college some 30+ years back (and promptly forgot) can be automated easily enough to produce reduced equations. Reducing the prom listing to a set of equations by isolating each bit in the output word and OR'ing the locations at which those bits are true is one reasonably way to do the job. I know of no PAL generation software that doesn't automatically reduce the equations for you. PROMs are programmable-OR-fixed-AND devices, while PALs are programmable AND-fixed-OR devices. The process of generating them is, therefore different, for a given logic function, but, expanded and re-reduced, the result should be the same. Of course a registered PROM is needed to produced registered outputs. I'd say a 16L8 would do for most PROM-based applications. A 16L8 is capable of generating any logic function of 16 inputs. A 256x4 or 32x8 PROM has less logic than that in it. > > -tony > > From jhellige at earthlink.net Wed Nov 21 19:14:26 2001 From: jhellige at earthlink.net (Jeff Hellige) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:11:27 2005 Subject: OT: paging MAC expert(s) --- What's a Performa? In-Reply-To: <859.726T2300T685793optimus@canit.se> References: <859.726T2300T685793optimus@canit.se> Message-ID: >The Commodore A590 controller (released in 1987?) also had an XT-IDE >controller on its PCB in addition to the SCSI interface. It was a cheap way >for C= to add small drives into the A590 case. I didn't know that...I had always thought that the older Amiga hard disk interfaces were either ST506 or SCSI. Jeff -- Home of the TRS-80 Model 2000 FAQ File http://www.cchaven.com http://www.geocities.com/siliconvalley/lakes/6757 From ghldbrd at ccp.com Wed Nov 21 20:37:42 2001 From: ghldbrd at ccp.com (Gary Hildebrand) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:11:27 2005 Subject: 2mm spacing connectors Message-ID: <3BFC64F6.F218DE67@ccp.com> I would like to find a source for 2mm spaced 2 pin connectors, the ones used to add an LED indicator on most new hard drives. Preferably with leads attached, so I don't have to solder and melt . . . . . I can get lots of the .100 spaced, but the 2mm seems to be a odd bugger. Gary Hildebrand St. Joseph, MO From marvin at rain.org Wed Nov 21 19:58:54 2001 From: marvin at rain.org (Marvin Johnston) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:11:27 2005 Subject: 50th anniversary of the routine business use of computers References: <7A9BACCEF0171D4FB77019F5104CDD3722595E@jeffserver.tegjeff.com> Message-ID: <3BFC5BDE.C46CCD40@rain.org> I was fortunate enough to get some original LEO stationary and punch cards a few years ago. Just to see what would happen, I put one of each on ebay and it appears not many people had even heard of LEO computers! Douglas Quebbeman wrote: > > > "Feldman, Robert" said: > > > I was looking at the Economist (Nov 17th) at the library last night and > saw > > > the following (p. 76) > > > > > > The Lyons Electronic Office (LEO) began use 11-17-1951 in a British > catering > > > company. > > > > etc... > > > > See also: http://www.leo-computers.org.uk/ > > Business was fast on the heels of government... earlier that year > in June, The UNIVAC I was installed a few blocks from where I'm > typing this (historical nobody-ever-heard-of-Jeffersonville-Indiana). > > -dq From jss at subatomix.com Wed Nov 21 20:00:36 2001 From: jss at subatomix.com (Jeffrey S. Sharp) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:11:27 2005 Subject: NeXTs (was Re: Radio Shack abandons components) In-Reply-To: <200111212347.PAA12218@stockholm.ptloma.edu> Message-ID: <20011121193202.U26795-100000@lepton.subatomix.com> On Wed, 21 Nov 2001, Cameron Kaiser wrote: > I'd still like to get my hands on *a* NeXT. Yeah, me too. > Somenoe on the list a while back found a whole load of them but I > never heard back from the guy and I don't remember who that was, That was Curt Vendel. He was going to distribute the slabs for $35 plus shipping. I asked him several times how much my shipping would be and where to send the money, but I never received an answer. His last message to the list on the subject is here: http://www.classiccmp.org/mail-archive/classiccmp/2001-04/0483.html All right Curt, if you're still with us, you're on the spot! Whatever happened to our slabs? -- Jeffrey S. Sharp jss@subatomix.com From mikeford at socal.rr.com Wed Nov 21 20:45:55 2001 From: mikeford at socal.rr.com (Mike Ford) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:11:27 2005 Subject: Another Old-computer dealer. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: > Have we developed a clear, easy-to-use "wanted" list or website for >this group? It'd be neat to be able to hand this guy (Mike Hancock) or >other dealers the list or URL, and tell them if they see something on the >list, save it, it's worth $xxx. > Could we set up a database/bid deal, where anyone can add to the >list of "want" items, and what they'd pay for it? This is information that is good for us to know among ourselves, but the list I would pass on to scrappers would be rather different and MUCH less specific. These guys have 100 times the contacts that most of us do, and while systems would get saved, prices will go out the roof if they know EXACTLY what is in demand and what isn't . Leave them a bit dependant on us stopping by and checking out the possible stuff. From mythtech at Mac.com Wed Nov 21 21:19:13 2001 From: mythtech at Mac.com (Chris) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:11:27 2005 Subject: Mac SE Sigma Video Card Message-ID: I just aquired a Mac SE FDHD (thanks Dave!), and it has a Sigma Designs video card in it. Surprise Surprise, ANOTHER company that seems to deny that they ever made things for the older macs. Needless to say, I can't find much info on it. It is part number 52-000132. It has a DB-9 Female connector for the monitor. Anyone know A: if drivers are needed (probably) and where I might get such (they might be on the computer still, I didn't have anymore space to boot it, nor another keyboard/mouse on hand... so I just opened it on the floor to have a looksee). B: What kind of monitor it connects to? (looks like a CGA or EGA connector, but could be just about anything... from what I am finding Sigma offered a cool SCSI based monitor that had its own custom stuff, so I am fearing that it needed a custom monitor too) C: What kind of video it is... that is, color, greyscale, monochrome... bit depth (if not monochrome), what size it could drive, output freqs... whatever. Thanks for any info -chris From jrice at texoma.net Wed Nov 21 21:25:18 2001 From: jrice at texoma.net (James L. Rice) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:11:27 2005 Subject: NeXTs (was Re: Radio Shack abandons components) References: <200111212347.PAA12218@stockholm.ptloma.edu> Message-ID: <3BFC701E.3060008@texoma.net> Actually I have a Turbo Color ADB slab, a '040 cube and the Dimension Cube. Both of the color systems are equipted with 21" NeXT/Hitachi (N4005) monitors and the slab has a spare NeXT/Trinitron (N4006) monitor. I have three NeXT lasers, one color printer and three NeXT N3010 CD-ROMS. All of the cables are geniune NeXT down to the power cords and the SCSI cables. My internet access is through a ISDN router until shortly after the first of the year. I'm getting ADSL 384/1.5mb with 5 fixed public ip's. The guy who found the sh*tload of NeXT's found himself over his head trying to inventory and test them all, so he sold them to Rob at http://www.blackholeinc.com . Rob is one of the two best places to get NeXT equipment around. The other place is Randy at http://www.channelu.com . Of course there is always evilbay. There is a nice Turbo Color slab sitting at $73.00 right now. http://cgi.ebay.com/aw-cgi/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=1298120201&r=0&t=0&showTutorial=0&ed=1006465718&indexURL=0&rd=1 Cameron Kaiser wrote: >> You have a Dimension Cube and you still want more??! Some >>people are never happy! I switched my LAN at home from the trial >>of Surfdoubler to the registered IPNetRouter and am having a blast >>with my NeXT slab on the 'net, especially since adding the second NIC >>to the G3. >> > >I'd still like to get my hands on *a* NeXT. Does someone have some >extras stockpiled somewhere they might be willing to do a deal with? >Somenoe on the list a while back found a whole load of them but I >never heard back from the guy and I don't remember who that was, if >you're still out there and still have some and you read sentences this >awkward. :-) > From gwynp at artware.qc.ca Wed Nov 21 21:31:46 2001 From: gwynp at artware.qc.ca (gwynp@artware.qc.ca) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:11:27 2005 Subject: NeXTs In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On 22-Nov-2001 Chris wrote: >>I'd still like to get my hands on *a* NeXT. Does someone have some >>extras stockpiled somewhere they might be willing to do a deal with? >>Somenoe on the list a while back found a whole load of them but I >>never heard back from the guy and I don't remember who that was, if >>you're still out there and still have some and you read sentences this >>awkward. :-) > > For fear of sounding like an AOL'er... ME TOO!!! I think the question would be : is there anyone who doesn't want a NeXT? I know I've lusted after a cube for many a year. -Philip From cmurillo at emtelsa.multi.net.co Wed Nov 21 21:58:00 2001 From: cmurillo at emtelsa.multi.net.co (Carlos Murillo) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:11:27 2005 Subject: OT: paging MAC expert(s) --- What's a Performa? In-Reply-To: <3BFC4C4F.455A213C@jetnet.ab.ca> References: Message-ID: <3.0.2.32.20011121225800.01801968@obregon.multi.net.co> At 05:52 PM 11/21/01 -0700, you wrote: >I still use netscape for mail. When I got linux to play with I could >never >find a mail server? program that would read mail in the POP format. >Netscape >works fine for now.Ben Franchuk. I use netscape out of necessity under HPUX (no other GUI mailer readily available). But I use Eudora on macs and wintel pc's. By far, Eudora is my preferred choice. carlos. -------------------------------------------------------------- Carlos E. Murillo-Sanchez carlos_murillo@nospammers.ieee.org From cmurillo at emtelsa.multi.net.co Wed Nov 21 21:59:26 2001 From: cmurillo at emtelsa.multi.net.co (Carlos Murillo) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:11:27 2005 Subject: OT: paging MAC expert(s) --- What's a Performa? In-Reply-To: <3BFC4C4F.455A213C@jetnet.ab.ca> References: Message-ID: <3.0.2.32.20011121225926.01801988@obregon.multi.net.co> At 05:52 PM 11/21/01 -0700, you wrote: >I still use netscape for mail. When I got linux to play with I could >never >find a mail server? program that would read mail in the POP format. >Netscape >works fine for now.Ben Franchuk. I use netscape out of necessity under HPUX (no other GUI mailer readily available). But I use Eudora on macs and wintel pc's. By far, Eudora is my preferred choice. carlos. ^X ^C Ok, so I use pine now and then :-) carlos. ^X -------------------------------------------------------------- Carlos E. Murillo-Sanchez carlos_murillo@nospammers.ieee.org From foo at siconic.com Wed Nov 21 23:01:22 2001 From: foo at siconic.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:11:27 2005 Subject: HardCard driver disks In-Reply-To: <20011121143354.B316@mastif> Message-ID: On Wed, 21 Nov 2001, John Ott wrote: > I could use one of these on my compaq portable with a 20 MB hardcard. Reply to me privately so I can keep track of you. I got so many requests that I'm just going to put the drivers up on my website so anyone who needs them can download them. I never realized so many people would want these. The first three people who got in requests will still get a disk. Everyone else can roll their own :) I'll post a message when I get those files up (probably late tonight). Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org From foo at siconic.com Wed Nov 21 23:05:10 2001 From: foo at siconic.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:11:27 2005 Subject: Interesting find In-Reply-To: <20011121162406.J26523-100000@lepton.subatomix.com> Message-ID: On Wed, 21 Nov 2001, Jeffrey S. Sharp wrote: > All right, now this has me irked. The 9825 is still at the place, but > they won't sell it to me today. Their normal hours are 8-5 MTWF, but > they only sell "to the public" on Tuesday from 11-4. How whacked up > is that!? Always have a business card handy ;) But yeah, that is pretty whacked. Sometimes the nerds that run these places are real shitheads. Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org From gunther at aurora.regenstrief.org Wed Nov 21 23:17:51 2001 From: gunther at aurora.regenstrief.org (Gunther Schadow) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:11:27 2005 Subject: RA60 drives anywhere? And stuff... References: <000001c16e91$6f2cba00$7901100a@mdl> <3BF9B9B2.2020603@aurora.regenstrief.org> <3BF9CE25.1010102@arrl.net> Message-ID: <3BFC8A7F.4060903@aurora.regenstrief.org> no wrote: > My main gripe > against the RA60 is the reliability issue. I finally replaced the ones > on our 11/785 last year with a SABB array (4 x RA72s). And you can fit 2 > SABB's in the space of one RA60. now wait a minute ... did you just say "on our 11/785"? Do you mean a computer club or actually a business? I want an 11/785 pretty badly and so I just have to ask whenever some of those appears to be still in business. thanks, -Gunther -- Gunther Schadow, M.D., Ph.D. gschadow@regenstrief.org Medical Information Scientist Regenstrief Institute for Health Care Adjunct Assistant Professor Indiana University School of Medicine tel:1(317)630-7960 http://aurora.regenstrief.org From edick at idcomm.com Wed Nov 21 23:23:26 2001 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:11:27 2005 Subject: 2mm spacing connectors References: <3BFC64F6.F218DE67@ccp.com> Message-ID: <001601c17315$d057b180$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> They're not odd at all anymore, but I know the problem you're referring to, having had to deal with it myself. I'd ordinarily look in the EEM sourcebook, but I just took the old ones down and haven't taken the new ones out of the boxes yet. If you can be a little more specific, perhaps I can help you. In the meantime, you might look in the DigiKey catalog. Dick ----- Original Message ----- From: "Gary Hildebrand" To: "Classic computing mailing list" Sent: Wednesday, November 21, 2001 7:37 PM Subject: 2mm spacing connectors > I would like to find a source for 2mm spaced 2 pin connectors, the ones > used to add an LED indicator on most new hard drives. Preferably with > leads attached, so I don't have to solder and melt . . . . . > > I can get lots of the .100 spaced, but the 2mm seems to be a odd bugger. > > Gary Hildebrand > St. Joseph, MO > > From dogas at bellsouth.net Wed Nov 21 23:29:25 2001 From: dogas at bellsouth.net (Mike) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:11:27 2005 Subject: Say it ain't so, Joe! References: <3.0.6.32.20011121112616.007b4100@mailhost.intellistar.net> Message-ID: <006001c17316$a6c975a0$3c19d7d1@DOMAIN> Hi Joe and all, From: Joe > > > > > I've had to dispose of all my classic computer stuff > > > if you want to come get it. Here's a list of what I can remember off the > top of my head: > > snip... > > All of the following are gone: > ALL of the HP handheld calcs; all the extra HP SW paks and manuals; all > the HP catalogs; all of the HP Journals; the HP 9100 and accessories; all > the HP 97s, 9815s and small desktop calcs; the HP 125 CPM machine; all the > AIM 65s; the Apple Lisas; the DEC 11/23 system; all the S-100 stuff except > for a few Cromemco cases with backplanes; both Altairs; the Rubicon; the > SB-180; all the HP 9000 series 300 machines; all six Osbornes; both Z-100s > and all the manuals and extra parts; all the Intel and Motorola SBCs; the > Tektronix 31 calc; the Tektronix 8051 computer and all accessories and > manuals; the Tektronix CPM computer; the Intel 235 MDS; the Sony/Tektronix > Logic Analyzers; the Dolch MPM computer/logic analyzer; ALL the general > computer manuals and books; all the test equipment except for one OLD HP > logic analyzer and all the machine tools and tooling except for the 12 x > 48" lathe (it's spoken for but we have to tear down the building to get it > out!) > Seems like there was more that that! I was close and free enough to be able to respond pretty quickly to this rescue situation. T + 4 hrs. I always like seeing Joe anyway when down there and wished to be introduced to his collection under different circumstances. I always figured Joe and I would get our collections together (...with some dec dude...) eventually for a pretty cool regional resource-depot/library/commercial/museum/thingy someday. I I had a (10x30) storage unit that I was finally down to two or three carloads away from emptying in Jacksonville (a Basic Four minicomputer) that I was able to temporarily store the three new loads from Joe's before finally being shuffled here. It was an adventure over miles with a car on the verge of catrastrophe, filled to the brim. Anyway, here's my recent 'new finds' list... 2 MITS Altair 8800 computers and MITS Altair Floppy (case) and manuals, cards,disk software DG Nova 1200 & (?) Eclipse Terak 8510 Apple Lisa w/widget&software & Macintosh Portable Digital DecStation 5000/240, lsi-11 cardcage & cards, tk50z, and some pdp11 cards Intel MDS 235 (+big accessories) and a few other sbc's, and bubble memory stuff Tektronix 4051 (+big accessories) and 4041 and (?) 31 calc and (2) 9100 DAS units and 338 Sony/Tek Logic Analyzer and good manual set few each of HP Apollo, 5036a, 86 (and cp/m aux processor), 87, 9820&9835 systems, and several drives,probes, sig analyzer, gpib event trigger AT&T UnixPC and hd drive and software E&L MMD and OP-2 OSI C2D 8" floppy case Zilog Development System and Drives National Semi computer Osborne 1 (brown) portable Zorba portable several AIM-65s & parts & EI Heathkit 3400, 3100, calculator, catalogs few Motorola 6800/68000 sbcs and EXORBus cards Canon sx-320 Intext XK-300 6802 sbc Atari ? system diagnostic Tandy PC-2, PC-6, 100, xenix software for 6000 Sharp Wizard, 1546, PC-2500, and Casio pocket computer Epson HX-40 S100 breakout panel and S100 cards IBM P70 and external disk/cable and (!!) Field Tek's Case Compaq Portable II 286 w/ISA backpack & eprom programmer several TI calculators about a 100 BOOKS! and early runs Byte and Kilobaud magazines buncha 1702a eproms Data I/O Programmer 29a and (?) calibrator 2 Weller sodering stations Pantronics 100a logic analyzer LSI ADM 3a terminal core memory boards several X-10 modules Dysan disk alignment disk set and unit whew! Woo Hoo! Thanks Joe! So... I've been pretty busy lately digging out from that avalanch and reading much. A few of the things I picked up were for other people and I'll be in touch ;) - Mike: dogas@bellsouth.net From stanb at dial.pipex.com Wed Nov 21 15:34:32 2001 From: stanb at dial.pipex.com (Stan Barr) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:11:27 2005 Subject: OT: paging MAC expert(s) --- What's a Performa? In-Reply-To: Your message of "Wed, 21 Nov 2001 13:40:38 MST." <000d01c172cc$c77df4a0$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> Message-ID: <200111212134.VAA17236@citadel.metropolis.local> Hi, "Richard Erlacher" said: > > I've watched both Netscape and IE wander back and forth between higher and lower > levels of integration but haven't seen much improvement. Of course, it not hard > to confuse change with progress. > True, but Cyberdog was *fundamentally* different. It was basically a technology demonstrator for Apple's OpenDoc. As Doug Quebbeman said earlier: " Cyberdog was essentially a container for a series of net-enabled OpenDoc components." Using the Cyberdog doc builder, you could basically roll your own browser with your own graphics, buttons and only those functions you wanted. All elements opened in their own movable re-sizable windows rather than in a huge monolithic window. As Apple said: "What is Cyberdog? Cyberdog is a suite of Internet components that allows you to browse the World Wide Web, receive and send e-mail, read articles from Usenet newsgroups, browse AppleTalk zones and servers, exchange files with FTP, and log into other computers with Telnet. Cyberdog provides tight integration between these components, and with other OpenDoc applications." Altogether a fine piece of work for 1994. Sadly died when OpenDoc was killed off...which makes it obsolete technology and (nearly) on topic! -- Cheers, Stan Barr stanb@dial.pipex.com The future was never like this! From vze2mnvr at verizon.net Thu Nov 22 00:16:14 2001 From: vze2mnvr at verizon.net (Ian Koller) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:11:28 2005 Subject: Preserving old literature (was: Re: Tandy 10 Info Wanted) References: Message-ID: <3BFC982E.BAE840E8@verizon.net> Aren't the copy machines you find in the libraries designed to copy pages in a book without breaking it's spine/back. Just makes copies at the library, then scan the copies. Tothwolf wrote: > > On Tue, 20 Nov 2001, Michael Nadeau wrote: > > From: "Tothwolf" > > > > > Speaking of 80 Micro...has anyone scanned the issues from 1980-1983? I > > > have a collection covering all of 1980-1982, and about 1/4th of '83 > > > (starting with issue #1). I haven't yet scanned anything since I am unsure > > > about how to do so w/o damaging them. > > > > If I were to do it, I'd sacrifice a less-than-pristine copy for the > > cause--not an option if you don't have a duplicate, of course. Scanning some > > of those bigger issues without taking them apart is near impossible (I've > > tried), and there's no way to reassemble the magazine. > > I don't have any duplicates, so taking them apart in such a way that ruins > them isn't an option for me. I guess I need to find an expert on book > binding and see what they can come up with. Maybe there is a special > scanner out there that was made for doing this kind of thing? > > -Toth From geoffr at zipcon.net Thu Nov 22 01:31:10 2001 From: geoffr at zipcon.net (Geoff Reed) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:11:28 2005 Subject: Mac SE Sigma Video Card In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20011121233026.03461a10@mail.zipcon.net> At 10:19 PM 11/21/01 -0500, you wrote: >It is part number 52-000132. It has a DB-9 Female connector for the >monitor. > >Anyone know > >B: What kind of monitor it connects to? (looks like a CGA or EGA >connector, but could be just about anything... from what I am finding >Sigma offered a cool SCSI based monitor that had its own custom stuff, so >I am fearing that it needed a custom monitor too) I'm pretty sure it's a TPD monochrome card IIRC. (TwoPageDisplay) From foo at siconic.com Thu Nov 22 01:32:41 2001 From: foo at siconic.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:11:28 2005 Subject: HardCard driver disks In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Wed, 21 Nov 2001, Sellam Ismail wrote: > I got so many requests that I'm just going to put the drivers up on my > website so anyone who needs them can download them. I never realized so > many people would want these. > > The first three people who got in requests will still get a disk. > Everyone else can roll their own :) > > I'll post a message when I get those files up (probably late tonight). Ok, so what's the trouble with reading a 360K diskette on a 1.2MB drive? I know we've covered this numerous times before but I'm too lazy to go searching through the archives. I think I'll try to fire up an old school IBM PC with a 360K drive to see if I have better luck. Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org From marvin at rain.org Thu Nov 22 02:05:02 2001 From: marvin at rain.org (Marvin Johnston) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:11:28 2005 Subject: HardCard driver disks References: Message-ID: <3BFCB1AE.1D2029CB@rain.org> Sellam Ismail wrote: > > Ok, so what's the trouble with reading a 360K diskette on a 1.2MB drive? > I know we've covered this numerous times before but I'm too lazy to go > searching through the archives. The problem is with writing on a 1.2 MB drive onto a disk that has also been written with the 360K drive, and then trying to read the resultant mess with a 360K drive. I've never run into problems reading any 360K diskette with a 1.2 MB drive. From pete at dunnington.u-net.com Thu Nov 22 02:44:24 2001 From: pete at dunnington.u-net.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:11:28 2005 Subject: Mac Restore CDs/Manuals In-Reply-To: Chris "Re: Mac Restore CDs/Manuals" (Nov 21, 17:58) References: Message-ID: <10111220844.ZM23154@mindy.dunnington.u-net.com> On Nov 21, 17:58, Chris wrote: > >I assume these are boardswapper guides and don't include useful > >information like schematics, right? > > Exactly. > > They are wonderful when you are trying to do things like open a Powerbook > to repair the latch spring or the mouse button (both things that are > prone to break on the 190/5300/3400/G3 case design), but totally useless > if you want to know how to repair the fried power supply on a 1400 > (swapping yes, repairing no). > > But that jives with apple and the Mac... they have ALWAYS had a board > swap approach to repair. Even when the repair is something simple. So if > that is all they approve doing, why bother making public (or in the case > of these, pseudo public) manuals that cover anything more detailed. That's a pity. They weren't always like that; the Apple ][ service manuals included complete schematics and diagnostic software, and the service centre package included quite a lot of component spares (though I think we bought those separately, not with the service manuals). I suppose it's not surprising they included the schematics, since some were in the normal user manuals anyway, but the service manual had more information. They were always a bit funny about people doing repairs, though, even out of warranty. We were part of an education auhority, not a comercial service centre, so perhaps that made a difference -- but we didn't find the local Apple Centre much good at that. -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager University of York From dpeschel at eskimo.com Thu Nov 22 04:30:50 2001 From: dpeschel at eskimo.com (Derek Peschel) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:11:28 2005 Subject: Mac Restore CDs/Manuals In-Reply-To: <10111220844.ZM23154@mindy.dunnington.u-net.com>; from pete@dunnington.u-net.com on Thu, Nov 22, 2001 at 08:44:24AM +0000 References: <10111220844.ZM23154@mindy.dunnington.u-net.com> Message-ID: <20011122023050.A26350@eskimo.eskimo.com> On Thu, Nov 22, 2001 at 08:44:24AM +0000, Pete Turnbull wrote: > On Nov 21, 17:58, Chris wrote: > > >I assume these are boardswapper guides and don't include useful > > >information like schematics, right? > > > > Exactly. > > > > They are wonderful when you are trying to do things like open a Powerbook > > to repair the latch spring or the mouse button (both things that are > > prone to break on the 190/5300/3400/G3 case design), but totally useless > > if you want to know how to repair the fried power supply on a 1400 > > (swapping yes, repairing no). > > > > But that jives with apple and the Mac... they have ALWAYS had a board > > swap approach to repair. Even when the repair is something simple. So if > > that is all they approve doing, why bother making public (or in the case > > of these, pseudo public) manuals that cover anything more detailed. > > That's a pity. They weren't always like that; the Apple ][ service manuals > included complete schematics and diagnostic software, and the service Come on, Pete, you should know by now that Apple turned away from its Apple ][ mentality the instant the Mac came out (if not before, like when the Mac was being designed) and apparently hasn't looked back since. (The people who ported NetBSD to the PowerPC machines find that Apple's upgrades to Open Firmware sometimes prevent NetBSD from even booting. I thought the whole point of OF was to allow multiple operating systems, but obviously I was wrong.) -- Derek From tothwolf at concentric.net Thu Nov 22 04:57:34 2001 From: tothwolf at concentric.net (Tothwolf) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:11:28 2005 Subject: 1771 floppy controller questions In-Reply-To: <20011122001522.NNIZ13234.tomts8-srv.bellnexxia.net@duron> Message-ID: On Wed, 21 Nov 2001 jpero@sympatico.ca wrote: > > From: Tothwolf > > > I bought a used dip style dram tester set about a year ago. It only cost > > me $5, and I figured it might be useful for testing all the old 64k and > > 256k drams I seem to run into in old pcs. I haven't yet had a chance to > > use it yet. Maybe it will help with these old boxes... > > Does work great but I like the kind that allows you to stress DRAM by > "overclocking" beyond it's speed rating by twisting that knob. > Example, that part fall over at just 3ns over rated speed, naah > plonk! It will fail running warm anyway when machine is closed up. > > Only limitation it only works w/ 256K and 1M, 1 bit and 4 bits. This may be the set I found. It has a checker and a speed verifier. I guess I should pull them out and see just what kinds of chips they work with. I didn't expect them to work with 1M chips, based on how old they looked, but if thats the case, they may not be usable for the 64k chips I was hoping to use them with. -Toth From tothwolf at concentric.net Thu Nov 22 05:12:29 2001 From: tothwolf at concentric.net (Tothwolf) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:11:28 2005 Subject: 1771 floppy controller questions In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Thu, 22 Nov 2001, Tony Duell wrote: > > It's more a matter of room than time right now, as my old "shop" is packed > > floor to ceiling with computers, parts, and so on. My benches are also > > currently covered up with even more parts and boxes. > > I know exactly what you mean.... :-) Guess it comes with collecting eh? > > I seem to remember one of these machines had a chip in one of the ram > > banks that was missing a pin. It looked like it had corroded off. It was a > > ceramic package with gold plated leads. > > Ah, if you have a visible problem like that, then you'd better fix it > ;-). The machine is unlikely to work if a chip is missing a pin. Once > you've fixed that, you can start the real troubleshooting... At the time I thought the particular lead might have not been used, and or someone damaged it when installing the chip. I had never seen a chip with its lead corroded off like that. There's no visible water/moisture damage on the rest of the board either, which seemed very odd. > > replace it with either a similar cable, or an IDC cable, as you suggested. > > I've not found a source of the original type of cable. And I don't like > it much anyway (it seems to have reliability problems, which get a lot > worse if the cable is inserted and removed a few times). Have you thought of trying a similar cable made from the newer plastics? Teflon seems to be very very tough compared to whatever kind of plastic they used in those older cables. What kind of current goes thru these cables? Would it be possible to use one of the more flexible carbon types instead of tin plated copper? > What I normally do is unsolder the connector from the PCB. Replace it > with an SIL header (maybe just a row of pins, maybe one of the 'box > headers used with the IDC sockets with one row of pins removed). Then use > IDC cable/sockets to link the headers. Make sure you use the same row of > holes in both sockets, of course. I've done this in several machines and > not had any problems. Could also use an SIL amp/berg connector and crimp pins to ribbon cable. Might look a little more original, but it would take allot more work to assemble then pressing on an IDC connector. > > My model 1's keyboard cable had the same problem, and I replaced it with a > > short bit of ribbon cable soldered directly to the boards. I'm planning to > > replace that again with something better the next time I work on it. > > The origianl M1 keyboard cables was a solid-core ribbon cable soldered to > both PCBs. It breaks if you unfold/reassemble the boards a few times. A > piece of normal ribbon cable seems to be a suitable replacement. That's exactly the problem mine suffered from. > > I think I saw some sort of temperature alarm/sensor plugged into the > > output of one of the supplies in one of these machines. Was that a 3rd > > party add-on or something that came standard? > > If that's what it is, it's certainly not standard. > > But disk-based M4s have a sound board. A small PCB with a 74LS74 chip, a > transistor and a beeper-thing on it. It has 4 wires coming off it, ending > in a 4 pin 0.1" Molex socket. It looks as though it could plug into a PSU > output connector, but it doesn't (doing so will kill the '74 at least). > It connects to a 4 pin plug on the CPU board just above the keyboard > connector. If yours was plugged into the PSU when you got the machine > then the previous owner was terminally clueless, and expect all sorts of > other problems! Well, if this is the machine that would not even turn on, that could explain something...I know the factory seals had already been broken. I wish I could get to these machines right now, I sure want to have another look and fix em :P -Toth From tothwolf at concentric.net Thu Nov 22 05:18:09 2001 From: tothwolf at concentric.net (Tothwolf) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:11:28 2005 Subject: 1771 floppy controller questions In-Reply-To: <001601c172ef$62e353a0$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> Message-ID: On Wed, 21 Nov 2001, Richard Erlacher wrote: > From: "Tothwolf" > > > > The ribbon in both computers was in somewhat bad shape. I was planning to > > replace it with either a similar cable, or an IDC cable, as you suggested. > > My model 1's keyboard cable had the same problem, and I replaced it with a > > short bit of ribbon cable soldered directly to the boards. I'm planning to > > replace that again with something better the next time I work on it. > > I thought of this bacause ribbon cable soldered to PCB's always seemed > to me to be a source of trouble. I had keyboards connected with > soldered ribbon for some time and it seems to me that I was frequently > restripping and resoldering, while those attached with connectors > occasionally required that I check that the connectors were securely > plugged, but nothing else. This is the exact problem I want to avoid with my model 1. I've considered using crimp on pins on each wire of the ribbon cable, since they would provide some strain relief for the individual wires. -Toth From tothwolf at concentric.net Thu Nov 22 05:20:27 2001 From: tothwolf at concentric.net (Tothwolf) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:11:28 2005 Subject: 1771 floppy controller questions In-Reply-To: <000e01c172ee$555b1520$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> Message-ID: On Wed, 21 Nov 2001, Richard Erlacher wrote: > From: "Tothwolf" > > > I bought a used dip style dram tester set about a year ago. It only cost > > me $5, and I figured it might be useful for testing all the old 64k and > > 256k drams I seem to run into in old pcs. I haven't yet had a chance to > > use it yet. Maybe it will help with these old boxes... > > You'll want to be careful with the early DRAMs, as they used 3 supply > rails, and your tester of 5-volt-only DRAMs may die from application > to a 3-supply DRAM. Thanks for the warning, I'll make sure to double check the datasheets before I try to test chips with it. I guess if I have to, I could make an adapter of somesort to test older chips too... -Toth From tothwolf at concentric.net Thu Nov 22 05:26:33 2001 From: tothwolf at concentric.net (Tothwolf) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:11:28 2005 Subject: OT: paging MAC expert(s) --- What's a Performa? In-Reply-To: <3BFC4C4F.455A213C@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: On Wed, 21 Nov 2001, Ben Franchuk wrote: > Tothwolf wrote: > > > Pine...Elm...Mutt...as long as its a console based utility, I'm happy :P > > I still use netscape for mail. When I got linux to play with I could > never find a mail server? program that would read mail in the POP > format. Netscape works fine for now. I have 'fetchmail' set to poll several pop boxes every 5-10 minutes. It then sends the mail it retrieves to whatever accounts I want on my local box thru the local sendmail. Since I use procmail as the delivery agent, all my email can then be filtered and sorted out into separate email 'folders'/files. -Toth From tothwolf at concentric.net Thu Nov 22 05:30:16 2001 From: tothwolf at concentric.net (Tothwolf) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:11:28 2005 Subject: Mac Restore CDs/Manuals In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Thu, 22 Nov 2001, Tony Duell wrote: > > > I have a non working 128k unit I'd sure like to get around to fixing...It > > actually worked before I located a keyboard and mouse for it, I think I > > used the wrong type of keyboard cable. When I powered it up with the > > keyboard, heard a snap, and it didn't work anymore :/ > > The keybaord port carries +5V, data (TTL level), clock (TTL level), > ground, in that order. > > If the keyboard cable was made to swap the pins end-for-end (which some > cables do), it would swap over +5V and ground at the keyboard. The > keyboard won't like this!, and it may also have damaged the PSU inside > the Mac. My guess is that the logic board in the machine is still OK. > > I would check the PSU outputs inside the Mac. And investigate the PSU. Is > the fuse still good? What about the chopper transistor. And so on. I think the fuse was ok. I think I can get to this machine, and may pull it out tonight. I'll check the chopper and related components. -Toth From tothwolf at concentric.net Thu Nov 22 05:34:05 2001 From: tothwolf at concentric.net (Tothwolf) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:11:28 2005 Subject: Mac Restore CDs/Manuals In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Wed, 21 Nov 2001, Chris wrote: > >I have a non working 128k unit I'd sure like to get around to fixing...It > >actually worked before I located a keyboard and mouse for it, I think I > >used the wrong type of keyboard cable. When I powered it up with the > >keyboard, heard a snap, and it didn't work anymore :/ > > YIKES! > > Yeah, the keyboard cable is supposed to be straight pinned (or was that > cross pinned... no it was straight pinned). A standard phone cable is > cross pinned (or was that straight pinned... no was cross pinned... LOL). > If you use a standard phone cable, you will fry the keyboard controller > chip. I am sure that was the snap you heard. I used a keyboard cable for some sort of HP gear, I had 2-3 brand new ones laying around, and figured they might work. > You can always use the mouse and the Key Caps desk accessory, type by > clicking the letters, then choose cut and paste to move it to whatever > you are trying to type in... PITA, but it actually does work (I had to do > it once when my sister took the keyboard away from me, and I had to get a > paper finished for school... it took me all night, but I finished it... > and promptly beat the stuffing out of her the next morning) Eh...I've got other working machines, so I don't think I need to use it quite *that* bad :) -Toth From tothwolf at concentric.net Thu Nov 22 05:47:00 2001 From: tothwolf at concentric.net (Tothwolf) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:11:28 2005 Subject: Preserving old literature (was: Re: Tandy 10 Info Wanted) In-Reply-To: <3BFC982E.BAE840E8@verizon.net> Message-ID: On Thu, 22 Nov 2001, Ian Koller wrote: > Tothwolf wrote: > > > I don't have any duplicates, so taking them apart in such a way that ruins > > them isn't an option for me. I guess I need to find an expert on book > > binding and see what they can come up with. Maybe there is a special > > scanner out there that was made for doing this kind of thing? > > Aren't the copy machines you find in the libraries designed to copy > pages in a book without breaking it's spine/back. Just makes copies at > the library, then scan the copies. The copy machines the local library here has are standard units. They also charge 10-15 cents a page, and are very much in need of an overhaul and cleaning (very poor copies). I have a very old 3 pass HP scanner that may be ok for scanning this stuff, but I'm not sure yet. The spines of these old magazines are much thinner and much more brittle then those found in most paperback books. -Toth From classiccmp at knm.yi.org Thu Nov 22 05:54:10 2001 From: classiccmp at knm.yi.org (Matt London) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:11:28 2005 Subject: HardCard driver disks In-Reply-To: <3BFCB1AE.1D2029CB@rain.org> Message-ID: Hi, > > Ok, so what's the trouble with reading a 360K diskette on a 1.2MB drive? > > I know we've covered this numerous times before but I'm too lazy to go > > searching through the archives. > > The problem is with writing on a 1.2 MB drive onto a disk that has also > been written with the 360K drive, and then trying to read the resultant > mess with a 360K drive. I've never run into problems reading any 360K > diskette with a 1.2 MB drive. 1.2M drives write thinner tracks than 360k drives, 360k drives get confused if you've overwritten stuff written with a 360k drive (thick tracks) with stuff from a 1.2M drive (thin track) - you get the idea :&) -- Matt --- Web Page: http://knm.yi.org/ http://pkl.net/~matt/ PGP Key fingerprint = 00BF 19FE D5F5 8EAD 2FD5 D102 260E 8BA7 EEE4 8D7F PGP Key http://knm.yi.org/matt-pgp.html From classiccmp at knm.yi.org Thu Nov 22 07:04:59 2001 From: classiccmp at knm.yi.org (Matt London) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:11:28 2005 Subject: Preserving old literature (was: Re: Tandy 10 Info Wanted) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Hi, > > > I don't have any duplicates, so taking them apart in such a way that ruins > > > them isn't an option for me. I guess I need to find an expert on book > > > binding and see what they can come up with. Maybe there is a special > > > scanner out there that was made for doing this kind of thing? > > > > Aren't the copy machines you find in the libraries designed to copy > > pages in a book without breaking it's spine/back. Just makes copies at > > the library, then scan the copies. > > The copy machines the local library here has are standard units. They also > charge 10-15 cents a page, and are very much in need of an overhaul and > cleaning (very poor copies). I have a very old 3 pass HP scanner that may > be ok for scanning this stuff, but I'm not sure yet. The spines of these > old magazines are much thinner and much more brittle then those found in > most paperback books. I've found that hanging one edge of the magazine over the side of the scanner works - you have to put the scanner on something thin and tall, so the whole side of the magazine droops down - the only problem then is the width of the plastic edges of the scanner surface/sides of scanner -- Matt --- PGP Key fingerprint = 00BF 19FE D5F5 8EAD 2FD5 D102 260E 8BA7 EEE4 8D7F PGP Key http://knm.yi.org/matt-pgp.html From tothwolf at concentric.net Thu Nov 22 07:17:13 2001 From: tothwolf at concentric.net (Tothwolf) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:11:28 2005 Subject: Mac Restore CDs/Manuals In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Thu, 22 Nov 2001, Tothwolf wrote: > I think the fuse was ok. I think I can get to this machine, and may pull > it out tonight. I'll check the chopper and related components. Well, I don't know where that machine is burried...Found a non-functional 1MB unit tho. It powers up, but it displays vertical bars of corrupted characters. Yet another project I guess :P -Toth From mythtech at Mac.com Thu Nov 22 10:46:59 2001 From: mythtech at Mac.com (Chris) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:11:28 2005 Subject: HardCard driver disks Message-ID: <200111221647.KAA65506@opal.tseinc.com> >Ok, so what's the trouble with reading a 360K diskette on a 1.2MB drive? >I know we've covered this numerous times before but I'm too lazy to go >searching through the archives. > >I think I'll try to fire up an old school IBM PC with a 360K drive to see >if I have better luck. I've never had a problem READING 360k disks in a 1.2 drive. I have had trouble writing them (but not always, and I think it might be related to the disks being DD's, but formated as HD's and then back to DD's again... not sure). And I do know when formatting them under dos, you need to specify that you are formatting a 360k disk in a 1.2 drive (/f is the switch I think). Just specifying the size as 360k doesn't usually work for me. -chris From mythtech at Mac.com Thu Nov 22 10:49:53 2001 From: mythtech at Mac.com (Chris) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:11:28 2005 Subject: Mac SE Sigma Video Card Message-ID: <200111221649.KAA65522@opal.tseinc.com> >>B: What kind of monitor it connects to? (looks like a CGA or EGA >>connector, but could be just about anything... from what I am finding >>Sigma offered a cool SCSI based monitor that had its own custom stuff, so >>I am fearing that it needed a custom monitor too) > > >I'm pretty sure it's a TPD monochrome card IIRC. (TwoPageDisplay) Is their anything special about a two page display? or can I use a more standard monitor (like CGA, or VGA with some kind of adaptor)? -chris From oliv555 at arrl.net Thu Nov 22 11:02:54 2001 From: oliv555 at arrl.net (no) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:11:28 2005 Subject: RA60 drives anywhere? And stuff... References: <000001c16e91$6f2cba00$7901100a@mdl> <3BF9B9B2.2020603@aurora.regenstrief.org> <3BF9CE25.1010102@arrl.net> <3BFC8A7F.4060903@aurora.regenstrief.org> Message-ID: <3BFD2FBE.1935ADC2@arrl.net> Gunther Schadow wrote: > > no wrote: > > > My main gripe > > against the RA60 is the reliability issue. I finally replaced the ones > > on our 11/785 last year with a SABB array (4 x RA72s). And you can fit 2 > > SABB's in the space of one RA60. > > now wait a minute ... did you just say "on our 11/785"? Do you > mean a computer club or actually a business? I want an 11/785 > pretty badly and so I just have to ask whenever some of those > appears to be still in business. > > thanks, > -Gunther > I'm sure there are quite a few still in commercial use. Ours is hooked up to a MD-80 flight simulator, with 2 more nestled in the back of the room serving as spares. There was a time in the mid '70s that Link claimed to be DECs biggest customer. Scores of PDP11s (/45, /70) were used in all types of sims, including at least one nuclear power plant simulator that I am aware of. Later models sported dual 11/780 configurations and 11/785s. Many of these have since been rehosted with VAX4000s and 6000s. -nick From dpeschel at eskimo.com Thu Nov 22 11:59:55 2001 From: dpeschel at eskimo.com (Derek Peschel) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:11:28 2005 Subject: Mac SE Sigma Video Card In-Reply-To: <200111221649.KAA65522@opal.tseinc.com>; from mythtech@Mac.com on Thu, Nov 22, 2001 at 11:49:53AM -0500 References: <200111221649.KAA65522@opal.tseinc.com> Message-ID: <20011122095955.A17434@eskimo.eskimo.com> On Thu, Nov 22, 2001 at 11:49:53AM -0500, Chris wrote: > >>B: What kind of monitor it connects to? (looks like a CGA or EGA > >>connector, but could be just about anything... from what I am finding > >>Sigma offered a cool SCSI based monitor that had its own custom stuff, so > >>I am fearing that it needed a custom monitor too) > > > > > >I'm pretty sure it's a TPD monochrome card IIRC. (TwoPageDisplay) > > Is their anything special about a two page display? or can I use a more > standard monitor (like CGA, or VGA with some kind of adaptor)? Your standard monitor may have to support an oddball resolution... those two-page displays were designed to allow publishers and graphics people to preview two 8.5x11" pages side by side. If you had a one-page display card the resolutionn would be even weirder (the actual monitors are really tall and thin, the same proportions as one 8.5x11" page). -- Derek From pete at dunnington.u-net.com Thu Nov 22 09:27:09 2001 From: pete at dunnington.u-net.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:11:28 2005 Subject: Mac Restore CDs/Manuals In-Reply-To: Derek Peschel "Re: Mac Restore CDs/Manuals" (Nov 22, 2:30) References: <10111220844.ZM23154@mindy.dunnington.u-net.com> <20011122023050.A26350@eskimo.eskimo.com> Message-ID: <10111221527.ZM23379@mindy.dunnington.u-net.com> On Nov 22, 2:30, Derek Peschel wrote: > On Thu, Nov 22, 2001 at 08:44:24AM +0000, Pete Turnbull wrote: > > That's a pity. They weren't always like that; the Apple ][ service manuals > > included complete schematics and diagnostic software, and the service > > Come on, Pete, you should know by now that Apple turned away from its > Apple ][ mentality the instant the Mac came out (if not before, like when > the Mac was being designed) and apparently hasn't looked back since. Well, yes, that's true. Although I'd moved on by then, it was apparently quite difficult to get information by the time the //e was around, even. To be honest, I'm not a great Apple fan. They tend to do things their own way, and then not tell you how they did them. -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager University of York From dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com Thu Nov 22 12:28:06 2001 From: dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com (Douglas Quebbeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:11:28 2005 Subject: Preserving old literature (was: Re: Tandy 10 Info Wanted) Message-ID: <7A9BACCEF0171D4FB77019F5104CDD37225964@jeffserver.tegjeff.com> > Aren't the copy machines you find in the libraries > designed to copy pages in a book without breaking it's > spine/back. Just makes copies at the library, then > scan the copies. There are copy machines that can optically adjust the image distortion that takes place as the page curves away from the scanning bed? Cool! We don't have them around here, tho... libraries around here are lucky to be able to keep the electricity on... -dq From mrbill at mrbill.net Thu Nov 22 12:34:02 2001 From: mrbill at mrbill.net (Bill Bradford) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:11:28 2005 Subject: Kalpana Etherswitch docs/firmware? Message-ID: <20011122123402.A13989@mrbill.net> They got bought by Cisco, which seems to have buried the product. Anybody got docs/firmware for either a Kalpana Etherswitch EPS-1500 or a 2015-RS? Thanks. Bill -- Bill Bradford mrbill@mrbill.net Austin, TX From cisin at xenosoft.com Thu Nov 22 12:59:25 2001 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin (XenoSoft)) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:11:28 2005 Subject: Preserving old literature (was: Re: Tandy 10 Info Wanted) In-Reply-To: <7A9BACCEF0171D4FB77019F5104CDD37225964@jeffserver.tegjeff.com> Message-ID: > > Aren't the copy machines you find in the libraries > > designed to copy pages in a book without breaking it's > > spine/back. Just makes copies at the library, then > > scan the copies. On Thu, 22 Nov 2001, Douglas Quebbeman wrote: > There are copy machines that can optically adjust the > image distortion that takes place as the page curves > away from the scanning bed? Although THEORETICALLY possible, don't expect to see anything like that in any real world library. BUT, ... some of the larger copiers do have a little more depth of focus, and therefore won't be as far out of focus on materials that aren't forced up against the glass. What really needs to be done is to unbind the materials, scan them, and re-bind them. You would need to remove the cover/spine very carefully to be able to reuse it (libraries typically will simply put a new cover on when they rebind stuff.) I have an Armarco "perfect binding" machine for sale ($100 with local pickup - Berkeley California), that theoretically could be used to do it by somebody with more skill than I have. -- Fred Cisin cisin@xenosoft.com XenoSoft http://www.xenosoft.com PO Box 1236 (510) 558-9366 Berkeley, CA 94701-1236 NOTE: My ISP is having difficulties. If you have problems reaching me at this e-mail address, you can leave a message at: cisin@info.sims.berkeley.edu fcisin@merritt.edu From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Thu Nov 22 13:32:24 2001 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (ajp166) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:11:28 2005 Subject: HardCard driver disks Message-ID: <002601c1738d$d8700ed0$89ee9a8d@ajp166> From: Chris >I've never had a problem READING 360k disks in a 1.2 drive. I have had >trouble writing them (but not always, and I think it might be related to >the disks being DD's, but formated as HD's and then back to DD's again... >not sure). And I do know when formatting them under dos, you need to Nope. the compatability is not symetric. You can read with 80track(1.2m) drives as the head width is narrower than the track for the 40 track(360k). You cannot relaibly write as the narrow 80tr head cannot fully erase a 40tr data track. You can fake it if you completely erase the media and use a 80tr drive to write but reading that reliably is poor. If you then write to that with a 40tr drive once again it will write the wider track. For that reason reading/writing across the 40/80 track drive sizes should be limited to read only save for special cases (emergency). My experience is that (read only) is adaquate. If you have cross compatability on read try erasing the disk completely first. Allison From dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com Thu Nov 22 14:39:34 2001 From: dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com (Douglas Quebbeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:11:28 2005 Subject: HardCard driver disks Message-ID: <7A9BACCEF0171D4FB77019F5104CDD37225969@jeffserver.tegjeff.com> > Nope. the compatability is not symetric. You can read with 80track(1.2m) > drives as the head width is narrower than the track for the 40 track(360k). > You cannot relaibly write as the narrow 80tr head cannot fully erase a 40tr > data track. You can fake it if you completely erase the media and use > a 80tr drive to write but reading that reliably is poor. If you then write to > that with a 40tr drive once again it will write the wider track. > > For that reason reading/writing across the 40/80 track drive sizes should > be limited to read only save for special cases (emergency). My experience > is that (read only) is adaquate. If you have cross compatability on read > try erasing the disk completely first. Someone used to market a utility in one of those microscopic ads in the back of Byte magazine that did double-track writes on the 80tr drives to yield diskettes that would read more reliably. Anyone have expericen with that? -dq From vze2wsvr at verizon.net Thu Nov 22 14:41:02 2001 From: vze2wsvr at verizon.net (Eric Chomko) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:11:28 2005 Subject: Happy Thanksgiving, y'all...new find in... Message-ID: <3BFD62DE.7313216@mail.verizon.net> my basement of all places! An Olympia RO printer, that is bout serial and parallel and, uses a diasy-wheel instead of being dot matrix. Wow, I forgot that I had the thing! Eric From donm at cts.com Thu Nov 22 14:58:18 2001 From: donm at cts.com (Don Maslin) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:11:28 2005 Subject: HardCard driver disks In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Wed, 21 Nov 2001, Sellam Ismail wrote: > On Wed, 21 Nov 2001, Sellam Ismail wrote: > > > I got so many requests that I'm just going to put the drivers up on my > > website so anyone who needs them can download them. I never realized so > > many people would want these. > > > > The first three people who got in requests will still get a disk. > > Everyone else can roll their own :) > > > > I'll post a message when I get those files up (probably late tonight). > > Ok, so what's the trouble with reading a 360K diskette on a 1.2MB drive? > I know we've covered this numerous times before but I'm too lazy to go > searching through the archives. There should be none unless these are some of the early 8-sector disks. Absent UniForm or some similar approach a late machine will surely choke. > I think I'll try to fire up an old school IBM PC with a 360K drive to see > if I have better luck. More likely to be successful with the above condition. - don > Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ > International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org > > From donm at cts.com Thu Nov 22 15:10:54 2001 From: donm at cts.com (Don Maslin) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:11:28 2005 Subject: HardCard driver disks In-Reply-To: <200111221647.KAA65506@opal.tseinc.com> Message-ID: On Thu, 22 Nov 2001, Chris wrote: > >Ok, so what's the trouble with reading a 360K diskette on a 1.2MB drive? > >I know we've covered this numerous times before but I'm too lazy to go > >searching through the archives. > > > >I think I'll try to fire up an old school IBM PC with a 360K drive to see > >if I have better luck. > > I've never had a problem READING 360k disks in a 1.2 drive. I have had > trouble writing them (but not always, and I think it might be related to > the disks being DD's, but formated as HD's and then back to DD's again... > not sure). And I do know when formatting them under dos, you need to > specify that you are formatting a 360k disk in a 1.2 drive (/f is the > switch I think). Just specifying the size as 360k doesn't usually work > for me. > > -chris > > Writing to a DD disk in a HD 5.25" drive is hardly ever a problem if the disk has ben degaussed and then formatted as 360k in the HD drive. As you say, reading a 360 in the HD drive is a shoo-in. - don From foo at siconic.com Thu Nov 22 15:19:36 2001 From: foo at siconic.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:11:28 2005 Subject: HardCard driver disks In-Reply-To: <3BFCB1AE.1D2029CB@rain.org> Message-ID: On Thu, 22 Nov 2001, Marvin Johnston wrote: > > Ok, so what's the trouble with reading a 360K diskette on a 1.2MB drive? > > I know we've covered this numerous times before but I'm too lazy to go > > searching through the archives. > > The problem is with writing on a 1.2 MB drive onto a disk that has > also been written with the 360K drive, and then trying to read the > resultant mess with a 360K drive. I've never run into problems reading > any 360K diskette with a 1.2 MB drive. Well I can't imagine all of these driver disks are bad :( I wasn't able to read any on my PC. I'll check first to make sure the drive is reading a known good disk, and if that's not the problem, then I'll try reading these with an old PC. If that doesn't work, I guess these are worthless. Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org From spectre at stockholm.ptloma.edu Thu Nov 22 15:49:08 2001 From: spectre at stockholm.ptloma.edu (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:11:28 2005 Subject: Fixing an eMate Message-ID: <200111222149.NAA11466@stockholm.ptloma.edu> Just checking if there's anyone out there who might have some connections for repairing an Apple eMate 300 with a shattered screen. Anywhere to buy parts or perhaps an intact (just dead) eMate I can grab the LCD from? -- ----------------------------- personal page: http://www.armory.com/~spectre/ -- Cameron Kaiser, Point Loma Nazarene University * ckaiser@stockholm.ptloma.edu -- The world will end at 3 p.m. today, to be followed by a brief symposium. --- From nerdware at laidbak.com Thu Nov 22 15:54:15 2001 From: nerdware at laidbak.com (Paul Braun) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:11:28 2005 Subject: NeXTs (was Re: Radio Shack abandons components) In-Reply-To: <3BFC701E.3060008@texoma.net> Message-ID: <3BFD1FA7.26605.27BF350A@localhost> > The guy who found the sh*tload of NeXT's found himself over his head > trying to inventory and test them all, so he sold them to Rob at > http://www.blackholeinc.com . Rob is one of the two best places to > get NeXT equipment around. The other place is Randy at > http://www.channelu.com . Of course there is always evilbay. There > is a nice Turbo Color slab sitting at $73.00 right now. > That's a different story than I got.....after months, I finally got a reply (I was on the original list and had money in hand...) He told me he gave them to some school or something. Guess he didn't want us to know he sold them to a dealer. Just wish I had heard from him sooner....I passed on a couple of deals because I still thought I had a couple coming from him. Oh, well. They made more. I'll get one someday, and then it'll sit next (or is that NeXT) to my Lisa 2.... Paul Braun WD9GCO Cygnus Productions nerdware_nospam@laidbak.com "A computer without a Microsoft operating system is like a dog without a bunch of bricks tied to its head." From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Nov 22 13:56:42 2001 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:11:28 2005 Subject: 1771 floppy controller questions In-Reply-To: <000e01c172ee$555b1520$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> from "Richard Erlacher" at Nov 21, 1 05:40:49 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 792 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20011122/9715683c/attachment-0001.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Nov 22 14:00:03 2001 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:11:28 2005 Subject: 1771 floppy controller questions In-Reply-To: <001601c172ef$62e353a0$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> from "Richard Erlacher" at Nov 21, 1 05:48:22 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1155 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20011122/3cfdf92f/attachment-0001.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Nov 22 14:04:10 2001 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:11:28 2005 Subject: Mac Restore CDs/Manuals In-Reply-To: from "Chris" at Nov 21, 1 08:11:17 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1827 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20011122/92f59b93/attachment-0001.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Nov 22 14:17:09 2001 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:11:28 2005 Subject: I'm guessing you have solved this problem... In-Reply-To: <002601c172f3$01f77ae0$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> from "Richard Erlacher" at Nov 21, 1 06:14:17 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 4636 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20011122/76a5763c/attachment-0001.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Nov 22 14:27:39 2001 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:11:28 2005 Subject: 1771 floppy controller questions In-Reply-To: from "Tothwolf" at Nov 22, 1 05:12:29 am Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 4551 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20011122/88e6c48b/attachment-0001.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Nov 22 14:31:38 2001 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:11:28 2005 Subject: Mac Restore CDs/Manuals In-Reply-To: from "Tothwolf" at Nov 22, 1 07:17:13 am Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 372 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20011122/d4e884e8/attachment-0001.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Nov 22 14:33:55 2001 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:11:28 2005 Subject: Mac Restore CDs/Manuals In-Reply-To: <10111221527.ZM23379@mindy.dunnington.u-net.com> from "Pete Turnbull" at Nov 22, 1 03:27:09 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 588 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20011122/c2feb910/attachment-0001.ksh From vance at ikickass.org Thu Nov 22 16:32:38 2001 From: vance at ikickass.org (One Without Reason) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:11:28 2005 Subject: 1771 floppy controller questions In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Thu, 22 Nov 2001, Tony Duell wrote: > > > > It's more a matter of room than time right now, as my old "shop" is packed > > > > floor to ceiling with computers, parts, and so on. My benches are also > > > > currently covered up with even more parts and boxes. > > > > > > I know exactly what you mean.... :-) > > > > Guess it comes with collecting eh? > > Especially if you collect minicomputers :-) Even more if you collect mainframes, like me. 8-) Peace... Sridhar From donm at cts.com Thu Nov 22 16:43:04 2001 From: donm at cts.com (Don Maslin) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:11:28 2005 Subject: Mac Restore CDs/Manuals In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Thu, 22 Nov 2001, Tony Duell wrote: > > > > >I have a non working 128k unit I'd sure like to get around to fixing...It > > >actually worked before I located a keyboard and mouse for it, I think I > > >used the wrong type of keyboard cable. When I powered it up with the > > >keyboard, heard a snap, and it didn't work anymore :/ > > > > YIKES! Has it been established through all this dialogue that the machine will still boot? If so, I have missed it. - don > > Yeah, the keyboard cable is supposed to be straight pinned (or was that > > cross pinned... no it was straight pinned). A standard phone cable is > > It's straight through. certainly. > > > cross pinned (or was that straight pinned... no was cross pinned... LOL). > > If you use a standard phone cable, you will fry the keyboard controller > > chip. I am sure that was the snap you heard. > > Yes, you swap round +5V and ground at the keyboard. This is likely to > kill he microcontroller (8021 in early keyboards, 8048 in Mac+ keyboards > IIRC). > > > You can always use the mouse and the Key Caps desk accessory, type by > > clicking the letters, then choose cut and paste to move it to whatever > > you are trying to type in... PITA, but it actually does work (I had to do > > it once when my sister took the keyboard away from me, and I had to get a > > The keyboard protocol is documented in Inside Macintosh IIRC. I am > wondering if it would be quicker to use the Key Caps DA to type a > reasonable amount of text or convince some other machine to pretend to be > a keyboard. Preactially, I hate repetitive jobs, so I'd probably have a > go at the latter (and if the school paper had been anything remotely > technical and I'd not finished it in time, I'd have explained my > attempted hack to replace the keyboard and hoped that the teacher would > understand :-)). > > > paper finished for school... it took me all night, but I finished it... > > and promptly beat the stuffing out of her the next morning) > > Seems entirely reasonable :-) > > -tony > From donm at cts.com Thu Nov 22 16:48:14 2001 From: donm at cts.com (Don Maslin) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:11:28 2005 Subject: Mac Restore CDs/Manuals In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Thu, 22 Nov 2001, Tothwolf wrote: > On Thu, 22 Nov 2001, Tothwolf wrote: > > > I think the fuse was ok. I think I can get to this machine, and may pull > > it out tonight. I'll check the chopper and related components. > > Well, I don't know where that machine is burried...Found a non-functional > 1MB unit tho. It powers up, but it displays vertical bars of corrupted > characters. Yet another project I guess :P > > -Toth > I have an LC with a display rather like that caused by a missing Video RAM 72-pin SIMM. - don From menadeau at mediaone.net Thu Nov 22 18:30:10 2001 From: menadeau at mediaone.net (Michael Nadeau) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:11:28 2005 Subject: Preserving old literature (was: Re: Tandy 10 Info Wanted) References: Message-ID: <007701c173b6$06c4fde0$0b01a8c0@ValuedCustomer> I had a problem doing what you describe with old issues of BYTE. The trim sizes on a lot of the old magazines left little margin, and text was almost always cut off. General rule of thumb: The thicker the magazine, the more likely the publisher trimmed the width and height. Some BYTEs and 80 Micros weighed nearly 2 pounds, and the publishers were desperate to get that down to save shipping and paper costs. --Mike Michael Nadeau Editorial Services 603-893-2379 ----- Original Message ----- From: "Matt London" To: Sent: Thursday, November 22, 2001 8:04 AM Subject: Re: Preserving old literature (was: Re: Tandy 10 Info Wanted) > Hi, > > > > > I don't have any duplicates, so taking them apart in such a way that ruins > > > > them isn't an option for me. I guess I need to find an expert on book > > > > binding and see what they can come up with. Maybe there is a special > > > > scanner out there that was made for doing this kind of thing? > > > > > > Aren't the copy machines you find in the libraries designed to copy > > > pages in a book without breaking it's spine/back. Just makes copies at > > > the library, then scan the copies. > > > > The copy machines the local library here has are standard units. They also > > charge 10-15 cents a page, and are very much in need of an overhaul and > > cleaning (very poor copies). I have a very old 3 pass HP scanner that may > > be ok for scanning this stuff, but I'm not sure yet. The spines of these > > old magazines are much thinner and much more brittle then those found in > > most paperback books. > > I've found that hanging one edge of the magazine over the side of the > scanner works - you have to put the scanner on something thin and tall, so > the whole side of the magazine droops down - the only problem then is the > width of the plastic edges of the scanner surface/sides of scanner > > -- Matt > > --- > PGP Key fingerprint = 00BF 19FE D5F5 8EAD 2FD5 D102 260E 8BA7 EEE4 8D7F > PGP Key http://knm.yi.org/matt-pgp.html > > From gwynp at artware.qc.ca Thu Nov 22 19:25:04 2001 From: gwynp at artware.qc.ca (gwynp@artware.qc.ca) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:11:28 2005 Subject: New find : AT&T Unix PC7300 Message-ID: I was given this today. It has a tape backup (and controler board) and the DOS-73 "emulation" board w/ 8087 upgrade (but no 8088... are those NCR chips 8088 clones?). Included is full system software and docs. I wonder if the 5.25 inch disks are still readable. The computer is slightly dirty on the outside and dusty inside (on the expansion boards). I think I'll wait untill i can dust out the insides a bit before powering it. So now I have a Real UNIX(tm) computer! heh. -Philip From edick at idcomm.com Thu Nov 22 19:51:06 2001 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:11:28 2005 Subject: 1771 floppy controller questions References: Message-ID: <001a01c173c1$50ea4fa0$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> I was concerned that if he clipped his device onto a 3-voltage device, the test device would go poof. if it's external to the application, it doesn't matter, since the test device provides the supplies. I have a few of those old HP IC test clips, and the ones I have are all malfunctioning in some way due to abuse prior to their falling into my possession. That's actually why I have them. Dick ----- Original Message ----- From: "Tony Duell" To: Sent: Thursday, November 22, 2001 12:56 PM Subject: Re: 1771 floppy controller questions > > > > You'll want to be careful with the early DRAMs, as they used 3 supply rails, and > > your tester of 5-volt-only DRAMs may die from application to a 3-supply DRAM. > > It's unlikely that an 3-rail DRAM chip will damage the tester (it's not > going to magically apply overvoltage to the tester's inputs if it's only > fed with a 5V supply). But it's not going to work, and in some cases it > might damage the DRAM (some of the older DRAMs would fail if the -ve bias > supply was missing IIRC). > > 64K bit chips and above are +5V only in my experience. 4K bit and below > are almost always multiple supply rail types, and some of them had logic > inputs (clock/select) that needed higher-than-TTL levels. 16K bit are > normally 3 rail (4116 and equivalents), but +5V only ones exist (4816 IIRC). > > -tony > > From edick at idcomm.com Thu Nov 22 19:57:32 2001 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:11:29 2005 Subject: I'm guessing you have solved this problem... References: Message-ID: <002201c173c2$3718b3e0$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> The current version of the "design expert" software from Lattice, which acquired the PLD business form AMD, which, decades ago, acquired MMI, which made these parts, probably, is freeware, and is quite capable of translating any set of logic equiations into a jedec file suitable for programming a 16V8, which is an adequate substitute for and superset of any of the 16Lx and 16Rx parts of yesteryear. It will reduce the equations, though I have doubts about taking truth table input. Of course, ATMEL distributes a free verison of ABEL that may well take truth table input and produce a JEDEC file, which the LATTICE software will then disassemble into something it can decipher into a 16V8. Where there's a will, there's mourners ... Dick ----- Original Message ----- From: "Tony Duell" To: Sent: Thursday, November 22, 2001 1:17 PM Subject: Re: I'm guessing you have solved this problem... > > > > Just how fast do these devices have to be, and how deep are they? I've got > > some > > > > > > 10's of ns at worst. And typically 256*4 bits or so. > > > > > So those would be 82S129's or the like? There are some such devices that still > > That sort of thing, yes... > > > show up in popular surplus supplies. > > Exactly. Of course you want to be sure that any you buy surplus have > never been programmed. There is no way to erase these devices. Ditto for > PALs, of course. > > > > Well, if you want to take a dump of the PROM, work out the logic > > > equations from it, then fit them into a PAL, and get it working, good > > > luck :-) > > > > > The PROM is listed as a truth-table, right? The only ABEL version I used simply > > Basically, yes. It's a bitwise dump of the PROM, not always formatted in > the obvious way (the microcode PROMs have the dump displayed as the > values in particular fields, which may be 1 bit long, 2 bits long, 3 bits > long, etc). You'd have to turn that into a pure binary dump. > > > took a truth table as input. That wouldn't take much processing. > > > If the logic will fit into a PAL and if you have suitable software. > > > > Yes, some PROMs were used as logic functions rather than (say) microcode > > > store. But it's not that easy to replace them with PALs (it's possible in > > > some cases to fit the logic into a small-ish PAL). It's a lot easier to > > > use a PROM/EPROM device. > > > > > If one doesn't have a suitable bit of software, that Quine-McLuskey (?) method > > Which is, of course, how most PAL compilers do logic optimisation. > > > that I learned about in college some 30+ years back (and promptly forgot) can be > > automated easily enough to produce reduced equations. Reducing the prom listing > > to a set of equations by isolating each bit in the output word and OR'ing the > > locations at which those bits are true is one reasonably way to do the job. I > > know of no PAL generation software that doesn't automatically reduce the > > equations for you. > > Some of the free stuff doesn't. I have a freeware (I think, it came from > National Semiconductors via Elektor as part of the software for their GAL > programmer project) GAL compiler that does no optimistations at all. It's > simple-minded, but at least it never does something that you don't expect! > > > > > PROMs are programmable-OR-fixed-AND devices, while PALs are programmable > > AND-fixed-OR devices. The process of generating them is, therefore different, > > Of course... > > > for a given logic function, but, expanded and re-reduced, the result should be > > the same. Of course a registered PROM is needed to produced registered outputs. > > Yes, but we are replacing PROMs with PALs, not the reverse. There are > registers PROMs (82S114 and 82S115 spring to mind), but they weren't used > in the 11/45 CPU. In any case, registered PALs are easy enough to find. > > > I'd say a 16L8 would do for most PROM-based applications. A 16L8 is capable of > > generating any logic function of 16 inputs. A 256x4 or 32x8 PROM has less logic > > Absolute rubbish. There are plenty of 16 input, 1 output, functions that > will not fit into a 16L8. The obvious way to see that is that to specify > an arbitrary 16 input function takes 64K bits (there are 2^16 lines in > the truth table, you need one bit to specify the output for each one). > The programming data for a 16L8 is much less than 64K bits (I seem to > remember it's around 3K). Therefore there are functions you can't stick > into the 16L8. > > As a trivial example, suppose have 16 inputs (allowing 2 outputs). And > that we're already using one of the outputs for a function we can fit. > Then the following function will not fit in a 16L8 AFAIK : > > Output = (I0 + I1 + I2 + I3 + I4 + I5 + I6 + I7 + I8 + I9 + I10 + I11 + I12)/ > > The final / is there because the OR matrix in a 16L8 is really a NOR > matrix. That expression needs 13 inputs to the OR matrix, IIRC there are > something like 7 or 8. Demorgan doesn't help because you can't invert the > whole exprrssion in a 16L8. Even with a 16V8, where you can invert the > whole thing and turn it into an AND expression that will fit, it's not > hard to think up expressions that can't be simplified into < 8 terms ORed > together. > > Expressions with multiple XOR terms are notoriously difficult to fit into > most PALs. You run out of OR terms very quickly. There were some special > PALs (16X4?) with XOR gates in them to get round this problem, but they > are not common, they're hard to find blanks for now, and most GALs can't > be configured to replace them. > > > > than that in it. > > > Not so. A 256*4 PROM effectively has some 256 input OR gates in it. These > do not exist in PALs. > > -tony > > From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Nov 22 20:07:37 2001 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:11:29 2005 Subject: 1771 floppy controller questions In-Reply-To: <001a01c173c1$50ea4fa0$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> from "Richard Erlacher" at Nov 22, 1 06:51:06 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 353 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20011123/0c141055/attachment-0001.ksh From m_05 at hotmail.com Thu Nov 22 20:58:44 2001 From: m_05 at hotmail.com (momma 05) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:11:29 2005 Subject: I wrote 'Nuke Redmond' Message-ID: shut up cuttie -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20011122/064aaaa5/attachment-0001.html From edick at idcomm.com Thu Nov 22 21:47:31 2001 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:11:29 2005 Subject: 1771 floppy controller questions References: Message-ID: <001701c173d1$94ae6220$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> HP made a series of device testers that live on a test clip that you plug on in-situ, and if it's designed for one set of supplies, and you hook up another, you may not be pleased with the results. I've got a few of those out-of-circuit testers, but the one I thing he (Tothwolf) is using is one of the type I'm referring to. It would be a shame to damage one, as it can test a soldered-in part without first unsoldering it. Dick ----- Original Message ----- From: "Tony Duell" To: Sent: Thursday, November 22, 2001 7:07 PM Subject: Re: 1771 floppy controller questions > > > > I was concerned that if he clipped his device onto a 3-voltage device, the test > > device would go poof. > > Most (all?) DRAM testers that I've seen test just the chips/simms out of > the circuit. It makes sense, since that way they can drive the address > lines, RAS/, CAS/, etc and veryify that the RAM works correctly on all > locations, etc. > > -tony > > From jrice at texoma.net Thu Nov 22 22:06:13 2001 From: jrice at texoma.net (James L. Rice) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:11:29 2005 Subject: NeXTs (was Re: Radio Shack abandons components) References: <3BFD1FA7.26605.27BF350A@localhost> Message-ID: <3BFDCB35.7070500@texoma.net> Now that's a machine that I really want. I have a lead on a couple of Lisa 2's if the guy ever gets them out of his storage building. Paul Braun wrote: > >Oh, well. They made more. I'll get one someday, and then it'll sit >next (or is that NeXT) to my Lisa 2.... > > > > >Paul Braun WD9GCO >Cygnus Productions >nerdware_nospam@laidbak.com > >"A computer without a Microsoft operating system is like a dog without a bunch of bricks tied to its head." > >. > From rcini at optonline.net Thu Nov 22 22:15:45 2001 From: rcini at optonline.net (Richard A. Cini, Jr.) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:11:29 2005 Subject: Altair32 Update - 11/22/01 Message-ID: Hello, all: I got another disk image working -- AltairDOS. And again, I have no manuals so I'm running a bit blind. This image seems to boot to a monitor program and a dot prompt. Does anyone have a command list to go with this? I've also gotten some error codes, so I probably need the whole manual. Also, I'm having a bit of a tough time...because of the configuration of the images I'm using, the status bits returned from the console are the exact opposite of a BASIC implementation. So with the emulator one could use *either* BASIC tapes *or* CP/M for example. So, I'd like to put out a call for someone with the code for a CP/M 2.2 BIOS for an Altair with the MITS floppy controller and an SIO or 2SIO serial card. Also, I'm going to need a layout of the floppy format because I will probably have to write some disk image manipulation tools for Windows so that I can regenerate a bootable CP/M image (straight T/S increments). On a positive note, I was able to get the integrated debugger that I borrowed from Jim Battle's Solace project working. This will prove to be a big help later on. Thanks Jim! Again, any help from those with a real Altair is greatly appreciated. Rich Rich Cini Collector of classic computers Build Master for the Altair32 Emulation Project Web site: http://highgate.comm.sfu.ca/~rcini/classiccmp/ /************************************************************/ From mythtech at Mac.com Fri Nov 23 00:12:46 2001 From: mythtech at Mac.com (Chris) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:11:29 2005 Subject: NeXTs (was Re: Radio Shack abandons components) Message-ID: <200111230612.AAA71689@opal.tseinc.com> >Now that's a machine that I really want. I have a lead on a couple of >Lisa 2's if the guy ever gets them out of his storage building. If you get an extra, send one my way! -chris From vze2mnvr at verizon.net Fri Nov 23 00:15:19 2001 From: vze2mnvr at verizon.net (Ian Koller) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:11:29 2005 Subject: Preserving old literature (was: Re: Tandy 10 Info Wanted) References: <7A9BACCEF0171D4FB77019F5104CDD37225964@jeffserver.tegjeff.com> Message-ID: <3BFDE977.ADA8C55C@verizon.net> Douglas Quebbeman wrote: > There are copy machines that can optically adjust the > image distortion that takes place as the page curves > away from the scanning bed? Matt London wrote: > the only problem then is the width of the plastic edges > of the scanner surface/sides of scanner That's not what I said. What I was referring to was copiers where the edge of the copying area comes very close ( within margin's distance ) of the side of the machine, so the other half of the book hangs over the side, and copying can be performed with the book, etc. opened to about a 90 degree angle instead of having to try to open it flat, i.e. 180 degrees. Douglas Quebbeman wrote: > We don't have them around here, tho... libraries > around here are lucky to be able to keep the > electricity on... Tothwolf wrote: > and are very much in need of an overhaul and > cleaning (very poor copies). I swear, from some of the things you folks say, it seems like most of you live in some third world country. Douglas Quebbeman wrote: > > > Aren't the copy machines you find in the libraries > > designed to copy pages in a book without breaking it's > > spine/back. Just makes copies at the library, then > > scan the copies. > > There are copy machines that can optically adjust the > image distortion that takes place as the page curves > away from the scanning bed? > > Cool! > > We don't have them around here, tho... libraries > around here are lucky to be able to keep the > electricity on... > > -dq From optimus at canit.se Thu Nov 22 05:34:14 2001 From: optimus at canit.se (Iggy Drougge) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:11:29 2005 Subject: FreeTradeZone site moving to subscription-only for olderparts In-Reply-To: <3.0.2.32.20011121065849.010878b8@obregon.multi.net.co> Message-ID: <398.726T700T7544397optimus@canit.se> Carlos Murillo skrev: >At 09:02 AM 11/21/01 +0100, Iggy wrote: >>David Woyciesjes skrev: >> >>>Maybe runs a full-tilt website crawler/archiver program? The kind that >>>grabs whetever pages you tell it, for offline reading, or some such thing? >> >>Wget. >I thought you did not like wget. I don't, but that's beside the point. The name of the program is still Wget. -- En ligne avec Thor 2.6a. From optimus at canit.se Thu Nov 22 10:10:56 2001 From: optimus at canit.se (Iggy Drougge) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:11:29 2005 Subject: OT: paging MAC expert(s) --- What's a Performa? In-Reply-To: <3BFA3562.9C18C21E@verizon.net> Message-ID: <665.726T2800T10306541optimus@canit.se> Ian Koller skrev: >> I don't know what a guy's to do. I guess image-copying the disk >> to tape, empty space and all, is the only solution. >The best device to back up a hard drive to is ... another hard >drive. Fastest speed transfers. And as inexpensive as hard drives >are these days, why not? In DOS, and even Win9x ... xcopy Hard drives are expensive and messy. I prefer tape, they are cheap, there are well-established back-up functions, and they don't require opening any boxes. BTW, you could all think of snipping /a lot/ more. -- En ligne avec Thor 2.6a. Menyn ?r inte lika sexig som telnet, det ?r h?rt men sant. Petri Oksanen #38 p? SUGA BBS From mranalog at home.com Fri Nov 23 01:25:41 2001 From: mranalog at home.com (Doug Coward) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:11:29 2005 Subject: Trinary circuits Message-ID: <3BFDF9F5.47354AF9@home.com> "Iggy Drougge" wrote: > This might interest some of the perverts out there: > http://www.trinary.cc/ The web site's tutorial says: > The trinary math system utilizes the 3 natural states > of electrical current flow. A wire conducts in one > direction, or the other, or not at all. Base 4 would > need to have 4 states, which don?t naturally exist. Somebody forgot to spread the word! Scientists Build Tiny Computer From DNA http://news.excite.com/news/r/011121/14/science-science-dnacomputer-dc > The double helix molecule that contains human genes > stores data on four chemical bases -- known by the > letters A, T, C and G -- giving it massive memory > capability that scientists are only just beginning > to tap into. Regards, --Doug ========================================= Doug Coward @ home in Poulsbo, WA Analog Computer Online Museum and History Center http://www.best.com/~dcoward/analog ========================================= From optimus at canit.se Fri Nov 23 01:05:48 2001 From: optimus at canit.se (Iggy Drougge) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:11:29 2005 Subject: OT: paging MAC expert(s) --- What's a Performa? In-Reply-To: <200111212336.PAA12136@stockholm.ptloma.edu> Message-ID: <851.727T2400T4855861optimus@canit.se> Cameron Kaiser skrev: >> Doing email through a shell account was pretty painful, with the slow >> serial link handlers that UNIX shell accounts offered. The Windows-based >> email handlers embedded in Internet Explorer, Netscape, etc, or Eudora, >> which was separate, were all MUCH easier and quicker to deal with. >Maybe Pine sucked over a serial line, but Elm is much less termcap-spendy. I >still use Elm to read my E-mail. Man was meant to read mail on-spool. Pine works fine if you connect at 14k4 or more. At very slow speeds (~2k4), it will even adjust itself to a less chatty behaviour with a lot of less ANSI sequences. -- En ligne avec Thor 2.6a. "Computer games don't affect kids, I mean if Pac Man affected us as kids, we'd all be running around in darkened rooms, munching pills and listening to repetitive music." David McMinn From optimus at canit.se Fri Nov 23 01:25:24 2001 From: optimus at canit.se (Iggy Drougge) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:11:29 2005 Subject: Mac SE Sigma Video Card In-Reply-To: <20011122095955.A17434@eskimo.eskimo.com> Message-ID: <1138.727T1200T5054785optimus@canit.se> Derek Peschel skrev: >If you had a one-page display card the resolutionn would be even weirder >(the actual monitors are really tall and thin, the same proportions as >one 8.5x11" page). I have two Sigma portrait displays. They're lovely. They're identical to the Apple portrait display, only in a less square package, and I think the display's a bit crisper, too. On older Macs, they require particular display cards, but they'll plug straight into most anything newer than a IIci. The max depth you'll get out of them with built-in video is 16 shades of grey. I've managed to drive them with a high-end RasterOps card at all the shades of grey you could ever require, though. There was a PC adaptor available, too. I saw one a few years ago at an electronics dealer's, still sealed. Portrait displays are a technology which is sadly extinct nowadays. Nevertheless, the old PARC machines used such displays, even at a similar resolution to Apple's. They occupy less space on the table and are ideal for wordprocessing. -- En ligne avec Thor 2.6a. /"\ \ / ASCII Ribbon X Campaign Against / \ HTML Mail! From optimus at canit.se Fri Nov 23 01:58:47 2001 From: optimus at canit.se (Iggy Drougge) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:11:29 2005 Subject: Mac Restore CDs/Manuals In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <224.727T2350T5386375optimus@canit.se> Don Maslin skrev: >I have an LC with a display rather like that caused by a missing Video >RAM 72-pin SIMM. 68-pin, IIRC. -- En ligne avec Thor 2.6a. You can have SEX with a Dragon but not with an Apple. -- Tony Duell From vze2mnvr at verizon.net Fri Nov 23 03:01:40 2001 From: vze2mnvr at verizon.net (Ian Koller) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:11:29 2005 Subject: OT: paging MAC expert(s) --- What's a Performa? References: <665.726T2800T10306541optimus@canit.se> Message-ID: <3BFE1074.D86E48FE@verizon.net> Iggy Drougge wrote: > Hard drives are expensive and messy. What's a 40 Gb hard drive cost in Sweden? Anybody know what a 40 Gb is at CompUSA here in the US? Iggy Drougge wrote: > > Ian Koller skrev: > > >> I don't know what a guy's to do. I guess image-copying the disk > >> to tape, empty space and all, is the only solution. > > >The best device to back up a hard drive to is ... another hard > >drive. Fastest speed transfers. And as inexpensive as hard drives > >are these days, why not? In DOS, and even Win9x ... xcopy > > Hard drives are expensive and messy. I prefer tape, they are cheap, there are > well-established back-up functions, and they don't require opening any boxes. > > BTW, you could all think of snipping /a lot/ more. > > -- > En ligne avec Thor 2.6a. > > Menyn ?r inte lika sexig som telnet, det ?r h?rt men sant. > Petri Oksanen #38 p? SUGA BBS From tothwolf at concentric.net Fri Nov 23 03:21:51 2001 From: tothwolf at concentric.net (Tothwolf) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:11:29 2005 Subject: 1771 floppy controller questions In-Reply-To: <001701c173d1$94ae6220$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> Message-ID: On Thu, 22 Nov 2001, Richard Erlacher wrote: > From: "Tony Duell" > > > Most (all?) DRAM testers that I've seen test just the chips/simms out of > > the circuit. It makes sense, since that way they can drive the address > > lines, RAS/, CAS/, etc and veryify that the RAM works correctly on all > > locations, etc. > > HP made a series of device testers that live on a test clip that you > plug on in-situ, and if it's designed for one set of supplies, and you > hook up another, you may not be pleased with the results. I've got a > few of those out-of-circuit testers, but the one I thing he (Tothwolf) > is using is one of the type I'm referring to. It would be a shame to > damage one, as it can test a soldered-in part without first > unsoldering it. The tester set I have is designed for out of circuit use. Both units are labeled 'ramcheck' and list the manufacturer as Innoventions, Inc. Houston, TX. The tester supports 64k and 256k according to the label. I opened up the tester, and found it contains an AMD 8088, a 27C32 eprom, and a single dram chip, along with a mix of 74LS ttl logic chips. From the looks of it, I could modify it to support 1024s and likely support older chips if I design some sort of interface board. The speed checker unit is designed to be used in-line with the tester (or maybe in circuit?), as it has a ribbon cable with dip idc header on one end. It has a knob for voltage selection labeled; Off, 4.5V, 5V, 5.5V, NR. I'm not sure what the NR stands for, maybe no regulation? The other control is a 16 position rotary switch (0-15), which is used x10 for speed selection in ns. Its logic board contains a 7805 regulator, a handful of 74LS ttl, and a few other chips I'd need to look up in a databook (Possibly a PROM and some clock generators?) -Toth From tothwolf at concentric.net Fri Nov 23 03:28:47 2001 From: tothwolf at concentric.net (Tothwolf) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:11:29 2005 Subject: 1771 floppy controller questions In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Thu, 22 Nov 2001, One Without Reason wrote: > On Thu, 22 Nov 2001, Tony Duell wrote: > > > > > > It's more a matter of room than time right now, as my old "shop" is packed > > > > > floor to ceiling with computers, parts, and so on. My benches are also > > > > > currently covered up with even more parts and boxes. > > > > > > > > I know exactly what you mean.... :-) > > > > > > Guess it comes with collecting eh? > > > > Especially if you collect minicomputers :-) > > Even more if you collect mainframes, like me. 8-) Well, my favorite stuff to collect is old SGI and Sun gear. It can take up quite a bit of room in a hurry, especially if you have monitors for them. -Toth From tothwolf at concentric.net Fri Nov 23 03:55:50 2001 From: tothwolf at concentric.net (Tothwolf) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:11:29 2005 Subject: 1771 floppy controller questions In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Thu, 22 Nov 2001, Tony Duell wrote: > > At the time I thought the particular lead might have not been used, and or > > someone damaged it when installing the chip. I had never seen a chip with > > IIRC, the DRAMs in the model 3 are 16K * 1 4116s or similar. All the pins > are used on these chips. If a pin is missing, then you are going to have > problems... I wonder if it would be worth soldering a new pin to what's left of that chip's lead? It looked like it had just corroded off, but with no other signs of moisture, I was kinda puzzled. > > Teflon seems to be very very tough compared to whatever kind of plastic > > they used in those older cables. What kind of current goes thru these > > cables? Would it be possible to use one of the more flexible carbon types > > instead of tin plated copper? > > In the Model 3/4 it's just logic level signals. There's a separate power > connector on the disk controller board. But I suspect that carbon-cable > would have too high a resistance to be reliable (if nothing else it's > going to delay the signals somewhat due to the RC time constant of the > cable and the input capacitance of the chips on the board). Probably not > a good idea. Sounds like I may have to experiment a little once I get some clear bench space ;) > > Could also use an SIL amp/berg connector and crimp pins to ribbon cable. > > Might look a little more original, but it would take allot more work to > > assemble then pressing on an IDC connector. > > It's a lot slower to assemble, and it's actually slightly taller. Also, > those SIL Berg/Amp/Molex connectors are difficult to find in >10 way > sizes (yes, they're made, but nobody seems to stock them). I prefer to > use parts I can get in 1-off quantities :-) I can often find them in large sizes, and use an a sharp X-acto to trim them to whatever pin count I need. [If anyone decides to try this, be very very careful, those blades are extremely sharp, and will cut thru the connector slow at first, then slice thru the remaining material very fast.] The leftovers can be recycled for even shorter connectors. This would not be economical for more then a few dozen connectors however. > > Well, if this is the machine that would not even turn on, that could > > explain something...I know the factory seals had already been broken. I > > Argh!. If the sound board has been plugged into the PSU output there's no > way of knowing what else has been misconnected and what damage has been > done. That's one reason to give a machine a complete visual inspection > before applying power, hoping that if things are totally misconnected > that the previous owner didn't power the machine up like that (some hope, > I know). I think that machine is the model 4, which I think came from a surplus dealer. There is no way of knowing what all someone tried to do to this thing before I bought it. The model 3 came from a thrift shop, and seemed to be in much better overall shape, and may have still had its factory seals intact. -Toth From tothwolf at concentric.net Fri Nov 23 03:58:36 2001 From: tothwolf at concentric.net (Tothwolf) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:11:29 2005 Subject: Preserving old literature (was: Re: Tandy 10 Info Wanted) In-Reply-To: <3BFDE977.ADA8C55C@verizon.net> Message-ID: On Fri, 23 Nov 2001, Ian Koller wrote: > Douglas Quebbeman wrote: > > We don't have them around here, tho... libraries > > around here are lucky to be able to keep the > > electricity on... > > Tothwolf wrote: > > and are very much in need of an overhaul and > > cleaning (very poor copies). > > > I swear, from some of the things you folks say, it > seems like most of you live in some third world country. Nah, just cities/states where the local government would rather spend money on fancy buildings and $1000 toilet seats instead of stuff the community can actually make use of. -Toth From guerney at bigpond.com Fri Nov 23 05:22:00 2001 From: guerney at bigpond.com (Phil Guerney) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:11:29 2005 Subject: Say it ain't so, Joe! References: <3.0.6.32.20011121112616.007b4100@mailhost.intellistar.net> Message-ID: <00c301c17411$15608e40$7937fea9@Guerney> Joe said > about 20 > HP 9825s with loads of accessories; about 15 HP 85s again with loads of > manuals, ROMS, etc; several HP 9920s including a full blown and loaded one > that came from Litton Laser Systems; several 9826s and 9836s including a > 9836CU; and bunches of interfaces and peripherals for the above. Also a > dead 9830 and a dead 9821, parts of a 9835, several 9845s .... > But I don't have time to ship them so you HAVE TO come get them. What an opportunity for someone to do a once-in-a-lifetime favour! Maybe somebody planning to visit Joe may be prepared to pack and send a system or two, for adequate compensation of course. All I want is one working 9825 with manuals/accessories, and a working monochrome monitor for a 9845. There was one message already on the list about a bulk pick-up, but it was hard to understand just what was grabbed. Anyway, let me know if something is possible. Ta Phil From Golemancd at aol.com Fri Nov 23 07:28:33 2001 From: Golemancd at aol.com (Golemancd@aol.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:11:29 2005 Subject: panasonic hhc found hhc chips Message-ID: <31.1e2a4b1d.292fa901@aol.com> so i found the chips to the hhc but they are all those allstate chips i dont know if they have anything on them other than the insurance programs Joee From edick at idcomm.com Fri Nov 23 09:22:24 2001 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:11:29 2005 Subject: OT: paging MAC expert(s) --- What's a Performa? References: <665.726T2800T10306541optimus@canit.se> <3BFE1074.D86E48FE@verizon.net> Message-ID: <002101c17432$a7422000$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> Can you still get a drive that small? Dick ----- Original Message ----- From: "Ian Koller" To: Sent: Friday, November 23, 2001 2:01 AM Subject: Re: OT: paging MAC expert(s) --- What's a Performa? > > Iggy Drougge wrote: > > Hard drives are expensive and messy. > > What's a 40 Gb hard drive cost in Sweden? > > Anybody know what a 40 Gb is at CompUSA here in the US? > > > > > Iggy Drougge wrote: > > > > Ian Koller skrev: > > > > >> I don't know what a guy's to do. I guess image-copying the disk > > >> to tape, empty space and all, is the only solution. > > > > >The best device to back up a hard drive to is ... another hard > > >drive. Fastest speed transfers. And as inexpensive as hard drives > > >are these days, why not? In DOS, and even Win9x ... xcopy > > > > Hard drives are expensive and messy. I prefer tape, they are cheap, there are > > well-established back-up functions, and they don't require opening any boxes. > > > > BTW, you could all think of snipping /a lot/ more. > > > > -- > > En ligne avec Thor 2.6a. > > > > Menyn ?r inte lika sexig som telnet, det ?r h?rt men sant. > > Petri Oksanen #38 p? SUGA BBS > > From edick at idcomm.com Fri Nov 23 09:27:03 2001 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:11:29 2005 Subject: 1771 floppy controller questions References: Message-ID: <002701c17433$4e423340$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> Well, it sounds like it's less likely that you'll break the parts in your tester, but it seems unlikely you'll be able to test the 4116's in it. I got the mistaken impression that you had the HP test-clip type of IC tester, of which I have a few, which require a functional component against which to compare the function of the circuit under test. I've never figured out how these work, since most of the ones I have are already brokent. One of these days ... Dick ----- Original Message ----- From: "Tothwolf" To: Sent: Friday, November 23, 2001 2:21 AM Subject: Re: 1771 floppy controller questions > On Thu, 22 Nov 2001, Richard Erlacher wrote: > > From: "Tony Duell" > > > > > Most (all?) DRAM testers that I've seen test just the chips/simms out of > > > the circuit. It makes sense, since that way they can drive the address > > > lines, RAS/, CAS/, etc and veryify that the RAM works correctly on all > > > locations, etc. > > > > HP made a series of device testers that live on a test clip that you > > plug on in-situ, and if it's designed for one set of supplies, and you > > hook up another, you may not be pleased with the results. I've got a > > few of those out-of-circuit testers, but the one I thing he (Tothwolf) > > is using is one of the type I'm referring to. It would be a shame to > > damage one, as it can test a soldered-in part without first > > unsoldering it. > > The tester set I have is designed for out of circuit use. Both units are > labeled 'ramcheck' and list the manufacturer as Innoventions, Inc. > Houston, TX. The tester supports 64k and 256k according to the label. I > opened up the tester, and found it contains an AMD 8088, a 27C32 eprom, > and a single dram chip, along with a mix of 74LS ttl logic chips. From the > looks of it, I could modify it to support 1024s and likely support older > chips if I design some sort of interface board. The speed checker unit is > designed to be used in-line with the tester (or maybe in circuit?), as it > has a ribbon cable with dip idc header on one end. It has a knob for > voltage selection labeled; Off, 4.5V, 5V, 5.5V, NR. I'm not sure what the > NR stands for, maybe no regulation? The other control is a 16 position > rotary switch (0-15), which is used x10 for speed selection in ns. Its > logic board contains a 7805 regulator, a handful of 74LS ttl, and a few > other chips I'd need to look up in a databook (Possibly a PROM and some > clock generators?) > > -Toth > > From edick at idcomm.com Fri Nov 23 09:29:55 2001 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:11:29 2005 Subject: 1771 floppy controller questions References: Message-ID: <002f01c17433$b42bad80$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> If you need 4116's, just send me your address. I've got more than I'll EVER use, believe me. Dick ----- Original Message ----- From: "Tothwolf" To: Sent: Friday, November 23, 2001 2:55 AM Subject: Re: 1771 floppy controller questions > On Thu, 22 Nov 2001, Tony Duell wrote: > > > > At the time I thought the particular lead might have not been used, and or > > > someone damaged it when installing the chip. I had never seen a chip with > > > > IIRC, the DRAMs in the model 3 are 16K * 1 4116s or similar. All the pins > > are used on these chips. If a pin is missing, then you are going to have > > problems... > > I wonder if it would be worth soldering a new pin to what's left of that > chip's lead? It looked like it had just corroded off, but with no other > signs of moisture, I was kinda puzzled. > > > > Teflon seems to be very very tough compared to whatever kind of plastic > > > they used in those older cables. What kind of current goes thru these > > > cables? Would it be possible to use one of the more flexible carbon types > > > instead of tin plated copper? > > > > In the Model 3/4 it's just logic level signals. There's a separate power > > connector on the disk controller board. But I suspect that carbon-cable > > would have too high a resistance to be reliable (if nothing else it's > > going to delay the signals somewhat due to the RC time constant of the > > cable and the input capacitance of the chips on the board). Probably not > > a good idea. > > Sounds like I may have to experiment a little once I get some clear bench > space ;) > > > > Could also use an SIL amp/berg connector and crimp pins to ribbon cable. > > > Might look a little more original, but it would take allot more work to > > > assemble then pressing on an IDC connector. > > > > It's a lot slower to assemble, and it's actually slightly taller. Also, > > those SIL Berg/Amp/Molex connectors are difficult to find in >10 way > > sizes (yes, they're made, but nobody seems to stock them). I prefer to > > use parts I can get in 1-off quantities :-) > > I can often find them in large sizes, and use an a sharp X-acto to trim > them to whatever pin count I need. [If anyone decides to try this, be very > very careful, those blades are extremely sharp, and will cut thru the > connector slow at first, then slice thru the remaining material very > fast.] The leftovers can be recycled for even shorter connectors. This > would not be economical for more then a few dozen connectors however. > > > > Well, if this is the machine that would not even turn on, that could > > > explain something...I know the factory seals had already been broken. I > > > > Argh!. If the sound board has been plugged into the PSU output there's no > > way of knowing what else has been misconnected and what damage has been > > done. That's one reason to give a machine a complete visual inspection > > before applying power, hoping that if things are totally misconnected > > that the previous owner didn't power the machine up like that (some hope, > > I know). > > I think that machine is the model 4, which I think came from a surplus > dealer. There is no way of knowing what all someone tried to do to this > thing before I bought it. The model 3 came from a thrift shop, and seemed > to be in much better overall shape, and may have still had its factory > seals intact. > > -Toth > > From mtapley at swri.edu Fri Nov 23 09:42:21 2001 From: mtapley at swri.edu (Mark Tapley) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:11:29 2005 Subject: Trinary circuits In-Reply-To: <200111220855.CAA61885@opal.tseinc.com> Message-ID: Iggy et al., > This might interest some of out there: http://www.trinary.cc/ Yep. Interestingly there is an alternate formulation known as the *Balanced* trinary number system. (One of the folks around here wants to label it "BaTeNuS".) The idea is that the digits, rather than being 0, 1, 2 for each place value, are (-1), 0, 1, meaning subtract, don't do either, or add the place value in which that digit appears. For convenience I'll write (-1) as "n" below, though in (LaPlace's?) original work it was written as 1 with an overstrike. Decimal Batenus Explanation ... -9 n00 (-1) * 3^2 + 0 + 0 -8 n01 (-1) * 3^2 + 0 + 1 * 3^0 -7 n1n (-1) * 3^2 + 1 * 3^1 + (-1) * 3^0 -6 n10 (-1) * 3^2 + 1 * 3^1 + 0 -5 n11 (-1) * 3^2 + 1 * 3^1 + 1 * 3^0 -4 nn 0 + (-1) * 3^1 + (-1) * 3^0 -3 n0 0 + (-1) * 3^1 + 0 -2 n1 0 + (-1) * 3^1 + 1 * 3^0 -1 n 0 + 0 + (-1) * 3^0 0 0 0 + 0 + 0 1 1 0 + 0 + 1 * 3^0 2 1n 0 + 1 * 3^1 + (-1) * 3^0 3 10 0 + 1 * 3^1 + 0 4 11 0 + 1 * 3^1 + 1 * 3^0 5 1nn 1 * 3^2 + (-1) * 3^1 + (-1) * 3^0 6 1n0 1 * 3^2 + (-1) * 3^1 + 0 7 1n1 1 * 3^2 + (-1) * 3^1 + 1 * 3^0 ... you get the idea. Notice that negative numbers are built in - no need for an additional (-) symbol leading a number. Also notice that to negate a number, you just negate each digit. Fractions, addition tables, etc. are left as an exercise for the reader. This system is great if you have a balance beam and want a minimum number of known weights. To get an (n), you put a known weight on the same side as the object being weighed, while to get a (1), put that weight on the opposite side. With 4 weights, (27, 9, 3, 1) you can generate every integer weight from -40 to 40 - try that with a decimal set of weights (or binary, for that matter). The problem I see with putting either Batenus or trinary in silicon (or gallium arsenide, etc.) is that all the electric technologies I know of are fundamentally binary. On/off, charge stored vs. not stored, current flowing vs. not flowing, etc. You need two binary bits (4 states) to hold a trinary digit (3 states), so there's a 33% loss. Even ignoring this, you only get a 50% increase in information capability and processing speed at best. Would you rather rebuild your computers from the gate level up, including all of the software, or just wait 6 months for the semiconductor industry to get you the 50% speedup in binary? However, I do notice that SQUID circuits, and some other superconducting phenomena, might well be made to work in a trinary fashion (no current, current circulating left, current circulating right). If so, that might make Batenus or trinary pretty interesting again. Am I Off-topic if I'm 10 years into the future? :-) - Mark Linc, >Calculating in binary code is as easy as 01,10,11. Calculating in Batenus is as easy as 1,1n,10 From cisin at xenosoft.com Fri Nov 23 11:00:58 2001 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin (XenoSoft)) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:11:29 2005 Subject: Preserving old literature (was: Re: Tandy 10 Info Wanted) In-Reply-To: <3BFDE977.ADA8C55C@verizon.net> Message-ID: > Douglas Quebbeman wrote: > > We don't have them around here, tho... libraries > > around here are lucky to be able to keep the > > electricity on... > Tothwolf wrote: > > and are very much in need of an overhaul and > > cleaning (very poor copies). On Fri, 23 Nov 2001, Ian Koller wrote: > I swear, from some of the things you folks say, it > seems like most of you live in some third world country. Yes. California. From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Fri Nov 23 11:25:08 2001 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (Ben Franchuk) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:11:29 2005 Subject: Trinary circuits References: Message-ID: <3BFE8674.5A0CD9D6@jetnet.ab.ca> Mark Tapley wrote: > >Calculating in binary code is as easy as 01,10,11. > Calculating in Batenus is as easy as 1,1n,10 I like the idea 0 is 0 volts n is + -n is -. um... Calculating in Batenus is as easy as ... , ..+ , ..- , .+. From optimus at canit.se Fri Nov 23 11:30:18 2001 From: optimus at canit.se (Iggy Drougge) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:11:29 2005 Subject: OT: paging MAC expert(s) --- What's a Performa? In-Reply-To: <3BFE1074.D86E48FE@verizon.net> Message-ID: <550.727T900T11104181optimus@canit.se> Ian Koller skrev: >Iggy Drougge wrote: >> Hard drives are expensive and messy. >What's a 40 Gb hard drive cost in Sweden? Now you forced me to actually look that up. The prices never cease to amaze me. Now you can get a 40 GB Maxtor 7200rpm DMA100/8ms IDE drive at only 1299 kr. But those prices aside, you could get a lot of DDS cassettes at that price, and they are much less messy. -- En ligne avec Thor 2.6a. Oj! Den buggen har ju funnits s? l?nge jag kan minnas! Jag saknar den redan. Thomas Sundqvist / Co-Gasfisk #1006 p? Fabbes BBS From mythtech at Mac.com Fri Nov 23 12:09:09 2001 From: mythtech at Mac.com (Chris) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:11:29 2005 Subject: OT: paging MAC expert(s) --- What's a Performa? Message-ID: <200111231809.MAA79983@opal.tseinc.com> >Anybody know what a 40 Gb is at CompUSA here in the US? I think I saw in last weeks flyer they were going for about $80 for an IDE internal 7200rpm Maxtor. -chris From dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com Fri Nov 23 12:33:35 2001 From: dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com (Douglas Quebbeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:11:29 2005 Subject: NeXTs (was Re: Radio Shack abandons components) Message-ID: <7A9BACCEF0171D4FB77019F5104CDD3722596A@jeffserver.tegjeff.com> > >Now that's a machine that I really want. I have a lead on a couple of > >Lisa 2's if the guy ever gets them out of his storage building. > > If you get an extra, send one my way! Apparantly, there are parts of the US where you can't swing a dead cat without hitting a Lisa that someone wants to get rid of... but the three of us don't live there! -dq From dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com Fri Nov 23 12:44:37 2001 From: dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com (Douglas Quebbeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:11:29 2005 Subject: Preserving old literature (was: Re: Tandy 10 Info Wanted) Message-ID: <7A9BACCEF0171D4FB77019F5104CDD3722596B@jeffserver.tegjeff.com> > Douglas Quebbeman wrote: > > We don't have them around here, tho... libraries > > around here are lucky to be able to keep the > > electricity on... > > Tothwolf wrote: > > and are very much in need of an overhaul and > > cleaning (very poor copies). > > I swear, from some of the things you folks say, it > seems like most of you live in some third world country. Oh, God, I feel another song coming on... But instead, yeah, Louisville KY metro area. Third World. Ten years ago, in a Wendy's, this guy comes in looking enough like Li'l Abner (plaid shirt, bluejeans w/rolled- up cuffs and bare feet) that I had to check to make sure that a Dogpatch musical wasn't playing... it wasn't, this guy had never heard that you can't enter a restaurant with bare feet. Most people with tech skills leave for better opportunities on the left coast. In the music scene, "The Louisville Sound" is the sound of a 727 taking our musicians to L.A. A major local issue is the destruction of roads by steel- wheeled tractors. They're not just for Amish, you know. And the cable company will be the only provider of "the last mile" to my subdivision for at least the next 5 years. I'm 19473 feet away from my CO, so unless a new technology gets deployed, I'll be on 56k dialup for the forseeable future. That ain't smoke signals or talking drums, but it ain't really high tech anymore, either. Regards, -dq From dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com Fri Nov 23 12:47:13 2001 From: dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com (Douglas Quebbeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:11:29 2005 Subject: Mac SE Sigma Video Card Message-ID: <7A9BACCEF0171D4FB77019F5104CDD3722596C@jeffserver.tegjeff.com> > Portrait displays are a technology which is sadly extinct nowadays. > Nevertheless, the old PARC machines used such displays, even at a similar > resolution to Apple's. They occupy less space on the table and are ideal for > wordprocessing. I'd really very much like to have an Apple Portrait Display (I think it was called the Full-Page Display). Very nice, I used on on a IIsi, had Xerox Smalltalk-80 loaded on it, used it just like a little Alto. -dq From dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com Fri Nov 23 12:48:58 2001 From: dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com (Douglas Quebbeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:11:29 2005 Subject: Preserving old literature (was: Re: Tandy 10 Info Wanted) Message-ID: <7A9BACCEF0171D4FB77019F5104CDD3722596D@jeffserver.tegjeff.com> > > Douglas Quebbeman wrote: > > > We don't have them around here, tho... libraries > > > around here are lucky to be able to keep the > > > electricity on... > > > > Tothwolf wrote: > > > and are very much in need of an overhaul and > > > cleaning (very poor copies). > > > > > > I swear, from some of the things you folks say, it > > seems like most of you live in some third world country. > > Nah, just cities/states where the local government would rather spend > money on fancy buildings and $1000 toilet seats instead of stuff the > community can actually make use of. Yeah; same here in Louisville, but instead, they're thinking about building a stadium downtown in order to attract an NBA team. The Charlotte Hornets were the latest team they courted... -dq From jhellige at earthlink.net Fri Nov 23 12:53:03 2001 From: jhellige at earthlink.net (Jeff Hellige) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:11:29 2005 Subject: NeXTs (was Re: Radio Shack abandons components) In-Reply-To: <7A9BACCEF0171D4FB77019F5104CDD3722596A@jeffserver.tegjeff.com> References: <7A9BACCEF0171D4FB77019F5104CDD3722596A@jeffserver.tegjeff.com> Message-ID: >Apparantly, there are parts of the US where you can't swing >a dead cat without hitting a Lisa that someone wants to get >rid of... but the three of us don't live there! Well maybe if the list knew where this place was, we could go liberate some of these Lisa's? I know around here they aren't plentiful like that. It took me quite a while to come up with one and it came from California. Jeff -- Home of the TRS-80 Model 2000 FAQ File http://www.cchaven.com http://www.geocities.com/siliconvalley/lakes/6757 From mranalog at home.com Fri Nov 23 13:14:28 2001 From: mranalog at home.com (Doug Coward) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:11:29 2005 Subject: Preserving old literature Message-ID: <3BFEA014.36F7C476@home.com> Matt London wrote: > I've found that hanging one edge of the magazine over the side of the > scanner works - you have to put the scanner on something thin and tall, so > the whole side of the magazine droops down - the only problem then is the > width of the plastic edges of the scanner surface/sides of scanner I once disassembled my scanner to investigate the possibility of removing the entire "plastic edges of the scanner" all the way to the edge of the scan area.(Hoping to be able to scan old books only open to a 90 degree angle.) It looked like a good idea because the outside track is inside the scan area. Unfortunately after I got the scanner apart, I discovered that the xenon(or whatever) tube not only does not light all the way to it's end, but it also has an electrode at the end. It just sticks out too far and has to extend past the edge of the scan area in order to illuminate the whole area. Oh well. On a similar note: I just found this - "Building a megapixel digital camera from a flatbed scanner" http://www.sentex.net/~mwandel/tech/scanner.html Regards, --Doug ========================================= Doug Coward @ home in Poulsbo, WA Analog Computer Online Museum and History Center http://www.best.com/~dcoward/analog ========================================= From foo at siconic.com Fri Nov 23 13:19:49 2001 From: foo at siconic.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:11:29 2005 Subject: NeXTs (was Re: Radio Shack abandons components) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Fri, 23 Nov 2001, Jeff Hellige wrote: > >Apparantly, there are parts of the US where you can't swing > >a dead cat without hitting a Lisa that someone wants to get > >rid of... but the three of us don't live there! > > Well maybe if the list knew where this place was, we could go > liberate some of these Lisa's? I know around here they aren't > plentiful like that. It took me quite a while to come up with one > and it came from California. Yeah, we wipe our asses with them here ;) Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org From optimus at canit.se Fri Nov 23 12:04:31 2001 From: optimus at canit.se (Iggy Drougge) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:11:29 2005 Subject: OT: paging MAC expert(s) --- What's a Performa? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <1245.727T1550T11445563optimus@canit.se> Jeff Hellige skrev: >>The Commodore A590 controller (released in 1987?) also had an XT-IDE >>controller on its PCB in addition to the SCSI interface. It was a cheap way >>for C= to add small drives into the A590 case. > I didn't know that...I had always thought that the older >Amiga hard disk interfaces were either ST506 or SCSI. Interestingly, the A590 has an XT-IDE controller, the A2090 an ST506. Both have SCSI, of course. I had the questionable pleasure of seeing an Amiga 2000 with *two* ST506 hard drives last week when were given one by a former member. One was connected to the 2090, one to an 8-bit ISA controller for the A2088 bridgeboard. Hideous sight, not to mention the sound. =/ -- En ligne avec Thor 2.6a. Within several messages, hsc refers to the user as a ``jerk''. This happens if you are using features which are only supported by some special browsers. Some people say they are forced by their employer to use those features, and therefor feel insulted by hsc. As a solution, you can store the amount of your monthly payment in this variable: setenv HSCSALARY 1000 After this, hsc will stop calling you a ``jerk''. Instead, it will now use the term ``prostitute''. -- README for the HTML preprocessor "hsc" From optimus at canit.se Fri Nov 23 12:05:52 2001 From: optimus at canit.se (Iggy Drougge) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:11:29 2005 Subject: 50th anniversary of the routine business use of computers In-Reply-To: <3BFC5BDE.C46CCD40@rain.org> Message-ID: <355.727T2600T11456125optimus@canit.se> Marvin Johnston skrev: >I was fortunate enough to get some original LEO stationary and punch >cards a few years ago. Just to see what would happen, I put one of each >on ebay and it appears not many people had even heard of LEO computers! Are they related to the PC maker of the same name (LEO Jet was one of their models)? -- En ligne avec Thor 2.6a. From cmurillo at manizales.autonoma.edu.co Fri Nov 23 13:44:24 2001 From: cmurillo at manizales.autonoma.edu.co (Carlos Murillo) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:11:29 2005 Subject: Continuing tale of the Powerserver 320H Message-ID: <3BFEA718.50452F40@manizales.autonoma.edu.co> A kind soul sent me the AIX dianostics disk set to try to break into the powerserver 320h, and I am having mixed results. With the switch in service mode, I was able to make the machine boot off the floppies; eventually it reaches a menu: AIX 3.2 INSTALLATION AND MAINTENANCE Select the number of the task that you want to perform >>>> 1 Install AIX 2 Install a system that was created with the SMIT "Backup the System" function or the "mksysb" command 3 Install this system for use with a "/usr" server. 4 Install a limited function maintenance shell. Type the number of your selection, then press "Enter": 4 Type 'exit' to return to the main menu. Use the getrootfs command to access file systems that reside on the root volume group. #ls ls: not found #vi vi: not found #cat /etc/mnttab #getrootfs usage: /usr/sbin/getrootfs [-f] diskname -f disregard status of hd5 Available disks: location: hdisk0 00-01-00-00 #getrootfs -f hdisk0 Importing Volume Group... rootvg /dev/rhd4 (/): ** Unmounted cleanly - Check supressed /dev/rhd2 (/usr): ** Unmounted cleanly - Check supressed /usr/sbin/getrootfs: mount: not found checking all mounts and the existance of df /usr/sbin/getrootfs: mount: not found /usr is not mounted #ls ls: not found #mount mount: not found #umount Usage: umount [-sf] {-a|-n Node|-t Type|all|allr|Device|File|directory|File System} # Further investigation revealed that if I "umount /usr", then there is some mount executable in the ram disk. Ok, so I make /usr1, copy all the stuff in the ramdisk /usr to /usr1 (also in ramdisk) and run getrootfs again. Still no luck mounting /usr . So, using the tools that I copied into /usr1 I mount /dev/hd4 in /mymnt/hd4 and /dev/hd2 in /mymnt/hd2 ; further investigation reveals that there indeed exist directories /mymnt/hd2/bin, /mymnt/hd2/lib, /mymnt/hd4/etc and so on; I seem to have mounted / and /usr from the HD correctly. I still cannot use any executables in the HD, though: #/mymnt/hd2/bin/ls killed typing # cat /mymnt/hd4/etc/passwd reveals that AIX seems to have shadow passwords but I can't find any of the usual files (master* etc) . # passwd cannot execute #/mymnt/hd4/bin/passwd killed So, does anybody know what's going on? carlos. -- Carlos E. Murillo-Sanchez email: carlos_murillo@spammers.not.ieee.org Universidad Autonoma de Manizales, Manizales, Colombia ---- "I'm not going to get involved in peer-review mumbo-jumbo." -- John Doolittle, House Republican, confronted by a reporter with the peer-review nature of the environmental studies he was dismissing. "Peer review is in fact the great mumbo-jumbo detector." -- Carl Sagan. From hansp at aconit.org Fri Nov 23 13:59:58 2001 From: hansp at aconit.org (Hans B Pufal) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:11:29 2005 Subject: 50th anniversary of the routine business use of computers References: <355.727T2600T11456125optimus@canit.se> Message-ID: <3BFEAABE.1030002@aconit.org> Iggy Drougge wrote: >>I was fortunate enough to get some original LEO stationary and punch >>cards a few years ago. Just to see what would happen, I put one of each >>on ebay and it appears not many people had even heard of LEO computers! > Are they related to the PC maker of the same name (LEO Jet was one of their > models)? Nope, LEO vanished long before the PC was even a gleam in the eye of its designer. It was merged into Enlish Electric Leo Computers in 1963 with Lyons holding 50% of the new company. In 1964 Lyons sold its shares to English Electric. Eventually, in 1968, the company was merged with other enlish computer companies to form ICL. -- hbp From dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com Fri Nov 23 14:11:13 2001 From: dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com (Douglas Quebbeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:11:29 2005 Subject: NeXTs (was Re: Radio Shack abandons components) Message-ID: <7A9BACCEF0171D4FB77019F5104CDD37225970@jeffserver.tegjeff.com> > On Fri, 23 Nov 2001, Jeff Hellige wrote: > > > >Apparantly, there are parts of the US where you can't swing > > >a dead cat without hitting a Lisa that someone wants to get > > >rid of... but the three of us don't live there! > > > > Well maybe if the list knew where this place was, we could go > > liberate some of these Lisa's? I know around here they aren't > > plentiful like that. It took me quite a while to come up with one > > and it came from California. > > Yeah, we wipe our asses with them here ;) Damned good thing, too, y'all's asses be in severe need of major wiping... -dq From jhellige at earthlink.net Fri Nov 23 14:15:26 2001 From: jhellige at earthlink.net (Jeff Hellige) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:11:29 2005 Subject: OT: paging MAC expert(s) --- What's a Performa? In-Reply-To: <1245.727T1550T11445563optimus@canit.se> References: <1245.727T1550T11445563optimus@canit.se> Message-ID: >Interestingly, the A590 has an XT-IDE controller, the A2090 an ST506. Both >have SCSI, of course. I had the questionable pleasure of seeing an Amiga 2000 >with *two* ST506 hard drives last week when were given one by a former member. >One was connected to the 2090, one to an 8-bit ISA controller for the A2088 >bridgeboard. Hideous sight, not to mention the sound. =/ I definately remember the A2000's with ST506 drives installed. During my first exposure to Amiga's it was a big deal if you had a controller that would actually autoboot vice needing a floppy to boot the machine at least part way. The Tecmar hard disk assembly on my A1000 is like that...the drivers for the controller are loaded off of the Workbench floppy. Now that I actually have two of the drives for my Tecmar controller though I should open one up and see what's inside of it. In the '87-88 timeframe it was the cost of the controller/drive combos for the Amiga that initially made me shy away from them. Jeff -- Home of the TRS-80 Model 2000 FAQ File http://www.cchaven.com http://www.geocities.com/siliconvalley/lakes/6757 From Oliver.Bruckauf at gmx.de Fri Nov 23 14:46:00 2001 From: Oliver.Bruckauf at gmx.de (Oliver.Bruckauf@gmx.de) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:11:29 2005 Subject: Happy Thanksgiving, y'all...new find in... Message-ID: <16543.1006548360@www56.gmx.net> Hi! this is exactly one of the things I alsways wanted to have. Is there somebody around who would want to get rid of one? (daisy-wheel printer that is) Oliver. > my basement of all places! > An Olympia RO printer, that is bout serial and parallel and, uses a > diasy-wheel instead of being dot matrix. Wow, I forgot that I had the > thing! > Eric From lemay at cs.umn.edu Fri Nov 23 14:55:06 2001 From: lemay at cs.umn.edu (Lawrence LeMay) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:11:29 2005 Subject: Preserving old literature In-Reply-To: <3BFEA014.36F7C476@home.com> Message-ID: <200111232055.OAA08634@caesar.cs.umn.edu> > > Matt London wrote: > > I've found that hanging one edge of the magazine over the side of the > > scanner works - you have to put the scanner on something thin and tall, so > > the whole side of the magazine droops down - the only problem then is the > > width of the plastic edges of the scanner surface/sides of scanner > > I once disassembled my scanner to investigate the > possibility of removing the entire "plastic edges > of the scanner" all the way to the edge of the > scan area.(Hoping to be able to scan old books > only open to a 90 degree angle.) > It looked like a good idea because the outside > track is inside the scan area. Unfortunately > after I got the scanner apart, I discovered that > the xenon(or whatever) tube not only does not light > all the way to it's end, but it also has an > electrode at the end. It just sticks out too far > and has to extend past the edge of the scan area > in order to illuminate the whole area. Check out www.bookscanner.com if you havent already. They modify a scanner in the method similar to what you describe. -Lawrence LeMay From pete at dunnington.u-net.com Fri Nov 23 15:28:55 2001 From: pete at dunnington.u-net.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:11:29 2005 Subject: Continuing tale of the Powerserver 320H In-Reply-To: Carlos Murillo "Continuing tale of the Powerserver 320H" (Nov 23, 14:44) References: <3BFEA718.50452F40@manizales.autonoma.edu.co> Message-ID: <10111232128.ZM24227@mindy.dunnington.u-net.com> On Nov 23, 14:44, Carlos Murillo wrote: > #ls > ls: not found > #vi > vi: not found I'm no AIX expert, and I've not used it in years. I think 3.2 uses shared libraries, and vi probably needs something in a library that's not mounted (or not in the right place) when running the limited maintenance shell. I'm surprised ls doesn't work, though. The shell should support ls, dd, backup, restore, chown, mkfs, mknod, mount, and things like that. And of course, our editor of choice: ed. > #cat /etc/mnttab Have a look in /etc/filesystems and see what it thinks it should mount for "mount all". I think AIX actually deletes /etc/mnttab as part of the normal startup, and does a "touch /etc/mnttab" to leave an empty file. > #getrootfs > usage: /usr/sbin/getrootfs [-f] diskname > -f disregard status of hd5 > Available disks: location: > hdisk0 00-01-00-00 > > #getrootfs -f hdisk0 > Importing Volume Group... > rootvg > /dev/rhd4 (/): ** Unmounted cleanly - Check supressed > /dev/rhd2 (/usr): ** Unmounted cleanly - Check supressed > /usr/sbin/getrootfs: mount: not found > checking all mounts and the existance of df > /usr/sbin/getrootfs: mount: not found > /usr is not mounted > > #ls > ls: not found > #mount > mount: not found > #umount > Usage: umount [-sf] {-a|-n Node|-t Type|all|allr|Device|File|directory|File > System} > # > > Further investigation revealed that if I "umount /usr", then there is > some mount executable in the ram disk. Ok, so I make /usr1, copy all > the stuff in the ramdisk /usr to /usr1 (also in ramdisk) and run > getrootfs again. Still no luck mounting /usr . So, using the tools > that I copied into /usr1 I mount /dev/hd4 in /mymnt/hd4 and /dev/hd2 > in /mymnt/hd2 ; further investigation reveals that there indeed exist > directories /mymnt/hd2/bin, /mymnt/hd2/lib, /mymnt/hd4/etc and so > on; I seem to have mounted / and /usr from the HD correctly. > I still cannot use any executables in the HD, though: > > #/mymnt/hd2/bin/ls > killed > > typing > # cat /mymnt/hd4/etc/passwd > > reveals that AIX seems to have shadow passwords but I can't find any > of the usual files (master* etc) . Possibly in /etc/security/passwd, /etc/security/group, and so on. Don't believe AIX is UNIX. It's not. > # passwd > cannot execute Probably the executable isn't in your PATH. If you have the filesystems mounted (BTW, why "mymnt" not just "mnt"? That's what mnt is for) you can add the relevant directories PATH=/mymnt/hd2/bin:$PATH but it might be better (if you just have two partitions on the hard drive) to mount hd2 directly on /mnt, and then mount hd4 on /mnt/usr. At least then things will be in the correct places relative to each other. There isn't a directory called "/root", is there? You could try the "users" command, though I expect it only works on a normal system (ie not from the maintenacne shell, which is sort of a mini system, like the miniroot or standalone shell in IRIX and Solaris). If you can edit /etc/passwd with ed, you can probably remove the password field from root's entry, leaving a null field (no password). -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager University of York From mythtech at Mac.com Fri Nov 23 15:31:56 2001 From: mythtech at Mac.com (Chris) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:11:30 2005 Subject: NeXTs (was Re: Radio Shack abandons components) Message-ID: <200111232132.PAA82359@opal.tseinc.com> >Apparantly, there are parts of the US where you can't swing >a dead cat without hitting a Lisa that someone wants to get >rid of... but the three of us don't live there! What parts of the US? Sounds like an excuse for a road trip! -chris From marvin at rain.org Fri Nov 23 15:52:51 2001 From: marvin at rain.org (Marvin Johnston) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:11:30 2005 Subject: 50th anniversary of the routine business use of computers References: <355.727T2600T11456125optimus@canit.se> Message-ID: <3BFEC533.86A9D004@rain.org> Iggy Drougge wrote: > > Marvin Johnston skrev: > > >I was fortunate enough to get some original LEO stationary and punch > >cards a few years ago. Just to see what would happen, I put one of each > >on ebay and it appears not many people had even heard of LEO computers! > > Are they related to the PC maker of the same name (LEO Jet was one of their > models)? I really can't answer that as I don't know what happened to LEO computers. My guess is that this stuff dates back to the early 1950's judging by the names on the stationary, but I don't know for sure. From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Nov 23 15:48:32 2001 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:11:30 2005 Subject: 1771 floppy controller questions In-Reply-To: <001701c173d1$94ae6220$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> from "Richard Erlacher" at Nov 22, 1 08:47:31 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1383 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20011123/4e4c9a03/attachment-0001.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Nov 23 16:01:38 2001 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:11:30 2005 Subject: 1771 floppy controller questions In-Reply-To: from "Tothwolf" at Nov 23, 1 03:55:50 am Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 2126 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20011123/268877d4/attachment-0001.ksh From wmsmith at earthlink.net Fri Nov 23 16:43:21 2001 From: wmsmith at earthlink.net (Wayne M. Smith) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:11:30 2005 Subject: NeXTs (was Re: Radio Shack abandons components) References: Message-ID: <03b101c17470$415da5a0$c599b2d1@Smith.earthlink.net> > > >Apparantly, there are parts of the US where you can't swing > > >a dead cat without hitting a Lisa that someone wants to get > > >rid of... but the three of us don't live there! > > > > Well maybe if the list knew where this place was, we could go > > liberate some of these Lisa's? I know around here they aren't > > plentiful like that. It took me quite a while to come up with one > > and it came from California. > > Yeah, we wipe our asses with them here ;) > So true. I got mine from a pile of picked over office equipment that was going to the scrapper. No manuals though -- apparently Sellam's ass got there first. From gwynp at artware.qc.ca Fri Nov 23 17:09:01 2001 From: gwynp at artware.qc.ca (gwynp@artware.qc.ca) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:11:30 2005 Subject: Continuing tale of the Powerserver 320H In-Reply-To: <3BFEA718.50452F40@manizales.autonoma.edu.co> Message-ID: On 23-Nov-2001 Carlos Murillo wrote: >#ls > ls: not found A classic tip is to do `echo *` to get a directory listing if ls is broken or missing. Note that this assumes your shell does globing, which a reduced "emergency" shell might not. -Philip From jrkeys at concentric.net Fri Nov 23 17:36:36 2001 From: jrkeys at concentric.net (John R. Keys Jr.) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:11:30 2005 Subject: NeXTs (was Re: Radio Shack abandons components) References: <7A9BACCEF0171D4FB77019F5104CDD3722596A@jeffserver.tegjeff.com> Message-ID: <00a101c17477$b2c575e0$7b701fd1@default> For a short while they were all over the place here in the Twin Cities (MN), people were giving them away. They were less than $10 at the thrift's. Houston was a good source for awhile also. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jeff Hellige" To: Sent: Friday, November 23, 2001 12:53 PM Subject: RE: NeXTs (was Re: Radio Shack abandons components) > >Apparantly, there are parts of the US where you can't swing > >a dead cat without hitting a Lisa that someone wants to get > >rid of... but the three of us don't live there! > > Well maybe if the list knew where this place was, we could go > liberate some of these Lisa's? I know around here they aren't > plentiful like that. It took me quite a while to come up with one > and it came from California. > > Jeff > -- > Home of the TRS-80 Model 2000 FAQ File > http://www.cchaven.com > http://www.geocities.com/siliconvalley/lakes/6757 > > From celt at chisp.net Fri Nov 23 17:33:29 2001 From: celt at chisp.net (Michael Maginnis) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:11:30 2005 Subject: Fixing an eMate References: <200111222149.NAA11466@stockholm.ptloma.edu> Message-ID: <3BFEDCC9.8020406@chisp.net> Cameron Kaiser wrote: > Just checking if there's anyone out there who might have some connections for > repairing an Apple eMate 300 with a shattered screen. Anywhere to buy parts > or perhaps an intact (just dead) eMate I can grab the LCD from? > > This place seems to have an inventory of eMate parts, if you're willing to do the work yourself: http://www.icni.com/Apple%20Parts/emate.htm Mike http://tarnover.dyndns.org From donm at cts.com Fri Nov 23 17:58:10 2001 From: donm at cts.com (Don Maslin) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:11:30 2005 Subject: Mac Restore CDs/Manuals In-Reply-To: <224.727T2350T5386375optimus@canit.se> Message-ID: On 23 Nov 2001, Iggy Drougge wrote: > Don Maslin skrev: > > >I have an LC with a display rather like that caused by a missing Video > >RAM 72-pin SIMM. > > 68-pin, IIRC. You may well be correct, as I did not count them nor try to substitute. - don From donm at cts.com Fri Nov 23 18:02:29 2001 From: donm at cts.com (Don Maslin) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:11:30 2005 Subject: 1771 floppy controller questions In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Fri, 23 Nov 2001, Tothwolf wrote: > On Thu, 22 Nov 2001, Tony Duell wrote: > > > > At the time I thought the particular lead might have not been used, and or > > > someone damaged it when installing the chip. I had never seen a chip with > > > > IIRC, the DRAMs in the model 3 are 16K * 1 4116s or similar. All the pins > > are used on these chips. If a pin is missing, then you are going to have > > problems... > > I wonder if it would be worth soldering a new pin to what's left of that > chip's lead? It looked like it had just corroded off, but with no other > signs of moisture, I was kinda puzzled. Why not? You might want to checkout the socket pretty thoroughly, though. - don From donm at cts.com Fri Nov 23 18:25:12 2001 From: donm at cts.com (Don Maslin) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:11:30 2005 Subject: Preserving old literature In-Reply-To: <3BFEA014.36F7C476@home.com> Message-ID: On Fri, 23 Nov 2001, Doug Coward wrote: > > Matt London wrote: > > I've found that hanging one edge of the magazine over the side of the > > scanner works - you have to put the scanner on something thin and tall, so > > the whole side of the magazine droops down - the only problem then is the > > width of the plastic edges of the scanner surface/sides of scanner > > I once disassembled my scanner to investigate the > possibility of removing the entire "plastic edges > of the scanner" all the way to the edge of the > scan area.(Hoping to be able to scan old books > only open to a 90 degree angle.) > It looked like a good idea because the outside > track is inside the scan area. Unfortunately > after I got the scanner apart, I discovered that > the xenon(or whatever) tube not only does not light > all the way to it's end, but it also has an > electrode at the end. It just sticks out too far > and has to extend past the edge of the scan area > in order to illuminate the whole area. > Oh well. > > On a similar note: > I just found this - "Building a megapixel digital > camera from a flatbed scanner" > http://www.sentex.net/~mwandel/tech/scanner.html > > Regards, > --Doug > ========================================= There used to be a scanner - I have long since forgotten the name - that had a small `camera' installed on a curved boom above a flat base. A couple of lights also, of course. I'd imagine that such a unit would be capable of scanning magazine pages with out ruining the magazine. I also imagine that it was bog slow and low resolution! - don > Doug Coward > @ home in Poulsbo, WA > > Analog Computer Online Museum and History Center > http://www.best.com/~dcoward/analog > ========================================= > From jhellige at earthlink.net Fri Nov 23 18:46:29 2001 From: jhellige at earthlink.net (Jeff Hellige) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:11:30 2005 Subject: Preserving old literature In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: >There used to be a scanner - I have long since forgotten the name - that >had a small `camera' installed on a curved boom above a flat base. A >couple of lights also, of course. I'd imagine that such a unit would be >capable of scanning magazine pages with out ruining the magazine. I >also imagine that it was bog slow and low resolution! For the Amiga, the DigiView with the DigiDroid and copystand worked like this. The copystand is actually pretty nice though and could be used for other closeup photography work. Jeff -- Home of the TRS-80 Model 2000 FAQ File http://www.cchaven.com http://www.geocities.com/siliconvalley/lakes/6757 From spectre at stockholm.ptloma.edu Fri Nov 23 19:19:13 2001 From: spectre at stockholm.ptloma.edu (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:11:30 2005 Subject: Fixing an eMate In-Reply-To: <3BFEDCC9.8020406@chisp.net> from Michael Maginnis at "Nov 23, 1 04:33:29 pm" Message-ID: <200111240119.RAA07574@stockholm.ptloma.edu> > This place seems to have an inventory of eMate parts, if you're willing > to do the work yourself: > http://www.icni.com/Apple%20Parts/emate.htm Dropped them a line and we'll see. Thanks! -- ----------------------------- personal page: http://www.armory.com/~spectre/ -- Cameron Kaiser, Point Loma Nazarene University * ckaiser@stockholm.ptloma.edu -- Not sun-worshippers: Son-worshippers! -- Uhura, Star Trek "Bread & Circuses" From spectre at stockholm.ptloma.edu Fri Nov 23 19:23:44 2001 From: spectre at stockholm.ptloma.edu (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:11:30 2005 Subject: NeXTs (was Re: Radio Shack abandons components) In-Reply-To: from Sellam Ismail at "Nov 23, 1 11:19:49 am" Message-ID: <200111240123.RAA08374@stockholm.ptloma.edu> > > Well maybe if the list knew where this place was, we could go > > liberate some of these Lisa's? I know around here they aren't > > plentiful like that. It took me quite a while to come up with one > > and it came from California. > > Yeah, we wipe our *sses with them here ;) I knew there was a reason my toilet kept backing up on all this mysterious beige plastic. :-P -- ----------------------------- personal page: http://www.armory.com/~spectre/ -- Cameron Kaiser, Point Loma Nazarene University * ckaiser@stockholm.ptloma.edu -- Quote me as saying I was misquoted. -- Groucho Marx ------------------------ From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Nov 23 19:14:47 2001 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:11:30 2005 Subject: Preserving old literature In-Reply-To: from "Don Maslin" at Nov 23, 1 04:25:12 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1120 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20011124/62a8db61/attachment-0001.ksh From jfoust at threedee.com Fri Nov 23 19:24:44 2001 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:11:30 2005 Subject: Preserving old literature In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <5.0.0.25.0.20011123192253.0235ab40@pc> At 07:46 PM 11/23/2001 -0500, you wrote: > For the Amiga, the DigiView with the DigiDroid and copystand worked like this. The copystand is actually pretty nice though and could be used for other closeup photography work. The DigiView was limited to the resolution of the B/W camera you chose, as well as its own limits of RS-170 video. These days, you'd be far better-off with a digital camera on that copy stand. - John From mcguire at neurotica.com Fri Nov 23 19:41:26 2001 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:11:30 2005 Subject: New find : AT&T Unix PC7300 In-Reply-To: New find : AT&T Unix PC7300 (gwynp@artware.qc.ca) References: Message-ID: <15358.64198.862453.959307@phaduka.neurotica.com> On November 22, gwynp@artware.qc.ca wrote: > I was given this today. It has a tape backup (and controler board) and > the DOS-73 "emulation" board w/ 8087 upgrade (but no 8088... are those > NCR chips 8088 clones?). Included is full system software and docs. I > wonder if the 5.25 inch disks are still readable. What are the numbers on the NCR chips? > The computer is slightly dirty on the outside and dusty inside (on the > expansion boards). I think I'll wait untill i can dust out the insides a > bit before powering it. > > So now I have a Real UNIX(tm) computer! heh. Cool. The 7300 is a really neat machine. I sold them years ago at a computer store in NJ, and had one for a few years shortly thereafter. Lots of fun! SVR2 UNIX on a 10MB disk with 512KB of RAM! :-) -Dave -- Dave McGuire St. Petersburg, FL From thompson at mail.athenet.net Fri Nov 23 19:48:25 2001 From: thompson at mail.athenet.net (Paul Thompson) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:11:30 2005 Subject: Continuing tale of the Powerserver 320H In-Reply-To: <3BFEA718.50452F40@manizales.autonoma.edu.co> Message-ID: On Fri, 23 Nov 2001, Carlos Murillo wrote: > #getrootfs > usage: /usr/sbin/getrootfs [-f] diskname > -f disregard status of hd5 > Available disks: location: > hdisk0 00-01-00-00 > > #getrootfs -f hdisk0 > Importing Volume Group... > rootvg > /dev/rhd4 (/): ** Unmounted cleanly - Check supressed > /dev/rhd2 (/usr): ** Unmounted cleanly - Check supressed > /usr/sbin/getrootfs: mount: not found > checking all mounts and the existance of df > /usr/sbin/getrootfs: mount: not found On my 4.1.5 machine mount lives in /usr/sbin with a symlink in /etc. Don't know how true this is of the maintenance shell though it is worth a try to type the paths completely. What does AIX say when you type /etc/mount and /usr/sbin/mount before and after you do the getrootfs? > Further investigation revealed that if I "umount /usr", then there is > some mount executable in the ram disk. Ok, so I make /usr1, copy all > the stuff in the ramdisk /usr to /usr1 (also in ramdisk) and run > getrootfs again. Still no luck mounting /usr . Why not leave the filesystems alone that the maintenance shell creates and mounts and instead mkdir /bogus to mount your hd4 on. I maybe misreading what you're typing above but there is no urgent need to mount hd2 on usr and hd4 on / just because that's how they are when the system boots from the system disk. Mount them wherever from the maintenance shell and cd where you need to get to change things. /bogus/etc/security/passwd is where your real encrypted password text lives if you mount hd4 on /bogus. If you can get to an editor eventually you should be able to just remove the encrypted entry for root as someone else mentioned. -- From cbajpai at mediaone.net Fri Nov 23 19:59:19 2001 From: cbajpai at mediaone.net (Chandra Bajpai) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:11:30 2005 Subject: NeXTs (was Re: Radio Shack abandons components) In-Reply-To: <00a101c17477$b2c575e0$7b701fd1@default> Message-ID: <000001c1748b$a15409c0$b97ba8c0@ne.mediaone.net> How long ago was this? -Chandra -----Original Message----- From: owner-classiccmp@classiccmp.org [mailto:owner-classiccmp@classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of John R. Keys Jr. Sent: Friday, November 23, 2001 6:37 PM To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org Subject: Re: NeXTs (was Re: Radio Shack abandons components) For a short while they were all over the place here in the Twin Cities (MN), people were giving them away. They were less than $10 at the thrift's. Houston was a good source for awhile also. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jeff Hellige" To: Sent: Friday, November 23, 2001 12:53 PM Subject: RE: NeXTs (was Re: Radio Shack abandons components) > >Apparantly, there are parts of the US where you can't swing a dead > >cat without hitting a Lisa that someone wants to get rid of... but > >the three of us don't live there! > > Well maybe if the list knew where this place was, we could go liberate > some of these Lisa's? I know around here they aren't plentiful > like that. It took me quite a while to come up with one and it came > from California. > > Jeff > -- > Home of the TRS-80 Model 2000 FAQ File > http://www.cchaven.com > http://www.geocities.com/siliconvalley/lakes/6757 > > From dmabry at mich.com Fri Nov 23 20:07:05 2001 From: dmabry at mich.com (Dave Mabry) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:11:30 2005 Subject: Intel C8080A chip brings $565 on EBAY References: <000c01c17077$dbd0adf0$0100a8c0@sys1> Message-ID: <3BFF00C9.A17A9BDD@mich.com> John, What would some of the white ceramic package with gold leads 1702 eproms be worth? I watched that one ebay auction for five finish, but the comments on the retracted bid makes me wonder. Thanks, and take care. Dave > John Galt wrote: > > Well, it was one of only two known rare purple Intel C8080A's > > I am always in the market to buy rare old Intel microprocessors and > support chips. > > If you have any old Intel 4004, 8008, 4040, or 8080 > microprocessors laying around, I want them. > > Also buying old EPROMS (C1702's, etc), RAM (C3101, C1101, C1103, etc), > clock chips, etc). > > Contact me at gmphillips@earthlink.net > > > -- Dave Mabry dmabry@mich.com Dossin Museum Underwater Research Team NACD #2093 From jhellige at earthlink.net Fri Nov 23 20:19:01 2001 From: jhellige at earthlink.net (Jeff Hellige) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:11:30 2005 Subject: Preserving old literature In-Reply-To: <5.0.0.25.0.20011123192253.0235ab40@pc> References: <5.0.0.25.0.20011123192253.0235ab40@pc> Message-ID: >The DigiView was limited to the resolution of the B/W camera >you chose, as well as its own limits of RS-170 video. These >days, you'd be far better-off with a digital camera on that >copy stand. I understand that, but at the time it was pretty impressive and I mentioned it due to the similarities of the setup with the copystand. It would do 4,096 colors in up to 704 x 480 (Dynamic Hi-Res at max overscan). I've got the full setup (Digi-View, Digi-Droid, Panasonic WV-1410 CCTV camera, Digi-Paint 3, and copy stand) plus a Sunrize color splitter. I've mostly used it with the color splitter, vice the camera. Now days, if I want a close-up of something, I generally put it on my flatbed scanner with a white cloth over it. HP Scanjet's are especially good at capturing depth of field like this, though mine is a rebadged Relisys Infinity Scorpion with it's internal RAM expanded. Jeff -- Home of the TRS-80 Model 2000 FAQ File http://www.cchaven.com http://www.geocities.com/siliconvalley/lakes/6757 From jhingber at ix.netcom.com Fri Nov 23 21:02:45 2001 From: jhingber at ix.netcom.com (Jeffrey H. Ingber) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:11:30 2005 Subject: NeXTs (was Re: Radio Shack abandons components) In-Reply-To: <200111240123.RAA08374@stockholm.ptloma.edu> References: <200111240123.RAA08374@stockholm.ptloma.edu> Message-ID: <1006570973.10317.7.camel@eleusis> On Fri, 2001-11-23 at 20:23, Cameron Kaiser wrote: > > > Well maybe if the list knew where this place was, we could go > > > liberate some of these Lisa's? I know around here they aren't > > > plentiful like that. It took me quite a while to come up with one > > > and it came from California. > > > > Yeah, we wipe our *sses with them here ;) > So that's why all the Lisas I've seen have turned yellow =) Jeffrey H. Ingber (jhingber _at_ ix.netcom.com) > I knew there was a reason my toilet kept backing up on all this mysterious > beige plastic. :-P > > -- > ----------------------------- personal page: http://www.armory.com/~spectre/ -- > Cameron Kaiser, Point Loma Nazarene University * ckaiser@stockholm.ptloma.edu > -- Quote me as saying I was misquoted. -- Groucho Marx ------------------------ From jrkeys at concentric.net Fri Nov 23 21:43:40 2001 From: jrkeys at concentric.net (John R. Keys Jr.) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:11:30 2005 Subject: NeXTs (was Re: Radio Shack abandons components) References: <000001c1748b$a15409c0$b97ba8c0@ne.mediaone.net> Message-ID: <00eb01c1749a$3634cc60$7b701fd1@default> It was back about 6 months. Now everyone's a dealer in old computer items and it's getting harder to locate stuff here. People are also trashing their machines and not trying to recycle them. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Chandra Bajpai" To: Sent: Friday, November 23, 2001 7:59 PM Subject: RE: NeXTs (was Re: Radio Shack abandons components) > How long ago was this? > > -Chandra > > > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-classiccmp@classiccmp.org > [mailto:owner-classiccmp@classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of John R. Keys Jr. > Sent: Friday, November 23, 2001 6:37 PM > To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org > Subject: Re: NeXTs (was Re: Radio Shack abandons components) > > > For a short while they were all over the place here in the Twin Cities > (MN), people were giving them away. They were less than $10 at the > thrift's. Houston was a good source for awhile also. > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Jeff Hellige" > To: > Sent: Friday, November 23, 2001 12:53 PM > Subject: RE: NeXTs (was Re: Radio Shack abandons components) > > > > >Apparantly, there are parts of the US where you can't swing a dead > > >cat without hitting a Lisa that someone wants to get rid of... but > > >the three of us don't live there! > > > > Well maybe if the list knew where this place was, we could go liberate > > > some of these Lisa's? I know around here they aren't plentiful > > like that. It took me quite a while to come up with one and it came > > from California. > > > > Jeff > > -- > > Home of the TRS-80 Model 2000 FAQ File > > http://www.cchaven.com > > http://www.geocities.com/siliconvalley/lakes/6757 > > > > > > From bpope at wordstock.com Fri Nov 23 21:29:22 2001 From: bpope at wordstock.com (Bryan Pope) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:11:30 2005 Subject: 70's Mattel Handheld Football game... Message-ID: <200111240329.WAA27211@wordstock.com> All, Someone was asking about this awhile ago. Target is now (re)selling the 1970s "Handheld Electronic Classic Football Game" for $12.99 At: http://www.target.com/common/catalog/product.jhtml?prodid=83988&navAction=jump&navCount=13 If you also go to http://tomheroes.com/retrotimes_51.htm#New%20(Old)%20Handhelds%20(Are%20Back) there is info about other handhelds being rereleased. Now speaking of handhelds, does anyone remember playing the handheld pinball game? I can't think of the name of it right now... Cheers, Bryan Pope From cmurillo at emtelsa.multi.net.co Fri Nov 23 21:45:03 2001 From: cmurillo at emtelsa.multi.net.co (Carlos Murillo) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:11:30 2005 Subject: Continuing tale of the Powerserver 320H In-Reply-To: References: <3BFEA718.50452F40@manizales.autonoma.edu.co> Message-ID: <3.0.2.32.20011123224503.01004fa4@obregon.multi.net.co> At 06:09 PM 11/23/01 -0500, Philip wrote: > >On 23-Nov-2001 Carlos Murillo wrote: >>#ls >> ls: not found > >A classic tip is to do `echo *` to get a directory listing if ls is broken >or missing. Note that this assumes your shell does globing, which a >reduced "emergency" shell might not. > >-Philip It worked, why, of course! why didn't I think about it? carlos. -------------------------------------------------------------- Carlos E. Murillo-Sanchez carlos_murillo@nospammers.ieee.org From cmurillo at emtelsa.multi.net.co Fri Nov 23 21:54:06 2001 From: cmurillo at emtelsa.multi.net.co (Carlos Murillo) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:11:30 2005 Subject: Preserving old literature (was: Re: Tandy 10 Info Wanted) In-Reply-To: <7A9BACCEF0171D4FB77019F5104CDD3722596B@jeffserver.tegjeff. com> Message-ID: <3.0.2.32.20011123225406.010057ec@obregon.multi.net.co> At 01:44 PM 11/23/01 -0500, you wrote: >> I swear, from some of the things you folks say, it >> seems like most of you live in some third world country. > >Oh, God, I feel another song coming on... > >But instead, yeah, Louisville KY metro area. Third World. >Ten years ago, in a Wendy's, this guy comes in looking >enough like Li'l Abner (plaid shirt, bluejeans w/rolled- >up cuffs and bare feet) that I had to check to make sure >that a Dogpatch musical wasn't playing... it wasn't, this >guy had never heard that you can't enter a restaurant with >bare feet. >A major local issue is the destruction of roads by steel- >wheeled tractors. They're not just for Amish, you know. > >And the cable company will be the only provider of "the >last mile" to my subdivision for at least the next 5 years. >I'm 19473 feet away from my CO, so unless a new technology >gets deployed, I'll be on 56k dialup for the forseeable >future. That ain't smoke signals or talking drums, but it >ain't really high tech anymore, either. Hah. In Ithaca, upstate NY, there is a sudden change of connectivity as soon as you cross RT 13 and enter the township of Lansing. 70 meters is the difference between roadrunner cable access and rural (max 28kbps) phone lines. carlos. -------------------------------------------------------------- Carlos E. Murillo-Sanchez carlos_murillo@nospammers.ieee.org From cmurillo at emtelsa.multi.net.co Fri Nov 23 21:43:41 2001 From: cmurillo at emtelsa.multi.net.co (Carlos Murillo) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:11:30 2005 Subject: Continuing tale of the Powerserver 320H In-Reply-To: <10111232128.ZM24227@mindy.dunnington.u-net.com> References: <3BFEA718.50452F40@manizales.autonoma.edu.co> Message-ID: <3.0.2.32.20011123224341.00ffc3a4@obregon.multi.net.co> Hi Peter; At 09:28 PM 11/23/01 GMT, Pete wrote: >On Nov 23, 14:44, Carlos Murillo wrote: >> #ls >> ls: not found >> #vi >> vi: not found >I'm no AIX expert, and I've not used it in years. I think 3.2 uses shared >libraries, and vi probably needs something in a library that's not mounted >(or not in the right place) when running the limited maintenance shell. > I'm surprised ls doesn't work, though. So far, the $program: not found error seems to indicate actual non-existence of the file... when the file exists but something else goes awry, either "killed" or "cannot execute" shows up.. The shell should support ls, dd, >backup, restore, chown, mkfs, mknod, mount, and things like that. And of >course, our editor of choice: ed. > >> #cat /etc/mnttab >Have a look in /etc/filesystems and see what it thinks it should mount for >"mount all". I think AIX actually deletes /etc/mnttab as part of the >normal startup, and does a "touch /etc/mnttab" to leave an empty file. see below >> #getrootfs >> usage: /usr/sbin/getrootfs [-f] diskname >> -f disregard status of hd5 >> Available disks: location: >> hdisk0 00-01-00-00 >> >> #getrootfs -f hdisk0 >> Importing Volume Group... >> rootvg >> /dev/rhd4 (/): ** Unmounted cleanly - Check supressed >> /dev/rhd2 (/usr): ** Unmounted cleanly - Check supressed >> /usr/sbin/getrootfs: mount: not found >> checking all mounts and the existance of df >> /usr/sbin/getrootfs: mount: not found >> /usr is not mounted It seems that the original / and /usr were located at /dev/hd4 and /dev/hd2, since I was able to mount them later on... > >> # passwd >> cannot execute > >Probably the executable isn't in your PATH. No, apparently when the file isn't found the msg is ": not found" . I tried all sane locations for the passwd program. "cannot execute" means something else, perhaps a permissions or restricted shell issue. > If you have the filesystems >mounted (BTW, why "mymnt" not just "mnt"? That's what mnt is for) you can >add the relevant directories > >PATH=/mymnt/hd2/bin:$PATH I did something similar; I copied all stuff in the ram-based /usr to another ram-based /usr1 and added /usr1/bin, /usr1/sbin and so on to the path, the idea being that after I used getrootfs I would not lose the previously available tools (while getrootfs seemed to change the actual anchoring of / from the ram to the HD device, it failed to properly mount /usr; however, the earlier ram-based tree at /usr became unavailable after the execution of getrootfs, leaving out the "mount" program, even though the mounting of /dev/hd2 at /usr had failed) >but it might be better (if you just have two partitions on the hard drive) >to mount hd2 directly on /mnt, and then mount hd4 on /mnt/usr. At least >then things will be in the correct places relative to each other. There >isn't a directory called "/root", is there? Yes, I did not keep relative mounting closeness in my arrangement. I'll have to check about the existence of /root (I'm away from the machine now) >You could try the "users" command, though I expect it only works on a >normal system (ie not from the maintenacne shell, which is sort of a mini >system, like the miniroot or standalone shell in IRIX and Solaris). If you >can edit /etc/passwd with ed, you can probably remove the password field >from root's entry, leaving a null field (no password). No ed so far; >> typing >> # cat /mymnt/hd4/etc/passwd > >> reveals that AIX seems to have shadow passwords but I can't find any >> of the usual files (master* etc) . >Possibly in /etc/security/passwd, /etc/security/group, and so on. Don't >believe AIX is UNIX. It's not. Indeed. /mymnt/hd4/etc/security/passwd and opasswd exist, but they are in a totally unknown format--anything like unix. Coud I replace a known encrypted (that is, under another unix variant) password in the corresponding token? carlos. -------------------------------------------------------------- Carlos E. Murillo-Sanchez carlos_murillo@nospammers.ieee.org From thompson at mail.athenet.net Fri Nov 23 23:32:49 2001 From: thompson at mail.athenet.net (Paul Thompson) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:11:30 2005 Subject: Continuing tale of the Powerserver 320H In-Reply-To: <3.0.2.32.20011123224503.01004fa4@obregon.multi.net.co> Message-ID: On Fri, 23 Nov 2001, Carlos Murillo wrote: > > > At 06:09 PM 11/23/01 -0500, Philip wrote: > >A classic tip is to do `echo *` to get a directory listing if ls is broken > >or missing. Note that this assumes your shell does globing, which a > >reduced "emergency" shell might not. > > It worked, why, of course! why didn't I think about it? > That is a neat trick. Now when you mount your root disk and it moves root to there does this show a normal number of files in the various /bin /sbin /etc directories? I am wondering if perhaps someone tried another neat trick of an rm -rf * on your disk which stopped after rm was deleted or number of files rm could handle was exceeded due to environment limitations. -- From jss at subatomix.com Sat Nov 24 00:08:24 2001 From: jss at subatomix.com (Jeffrey S. Sharp) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:11:30 2005 Subject: NeXTs (was Re: Radio Shack abandons components) In-Reply-To: <7A9BACCEF0171D4FB77019F5104CDD3722596A@jeffserver.tegjeff.com> Message-ID: <20011124000713.F29788-100000@lepton.subatomix.com> On Fri, 23 Nov 2001, Douglas Quebbeman wrote: > Apparantly, there are parts of the US where you can't swing a dead cat > without hitting a Lisa that someone wants to get rid of... Yeah, but probably because there are no readily available dead cats in those parts. Sorry, I could not resist. :-) -- Jeffrey S. Sharp jss@subatomix.com From wmsmith at earthlink.net Sat Nov 24 02:49:04 2001 From: wmsmith at earthlink.net (Wayne M. Smith) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:11:30 2005 Subject: HP Composite Video Interface Card References: <006701c0933b$7404d080$ece9b3d1@Smith.earthlink.net> <200102101755.f1AHt5467295@daemonweed.reanimators.org> Message-ID: <045101c174c4$df93c520$c599b2d1@Smith.earthlink.net> > "Wayne M. Smith" wrote: > > I am using an HP composite video card (98204A) in a > > 9000/200 series and am getting a very small multiple > > image on the screen. Is there something special about > > HP composite video or is this just a bad card? I've > > tried the card in both a 9000/200 and 9000/220 with the > > same result. Any ideas? > > "Frank McConnell" wrote > Just a wild guess, but if you have an HP 35731A monochrome monitor, > try it with that. That wants composite video but with a horizontal > frequency of 30KHz instead of the more usual 15KHz. HP used that on > several different systems. Frank, you were right! I recently picked up a 35731A with a batch of HP stuff, plugged it into the 98204A, and the video's perfect. Now that I can see the output, I was also able to confirm that, as expected, an HP Integral keyboard works with the series 200 HIL card. Now, if only I could find an OS. HPL or HP BASIC would be nice. -W From Lee.Davison at merlincommunications.com Sat Nov 24 03:09:32 2001 From: Lee.Davison at merlincommunications.com (Davison, Lee) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:11:30 2005 Subject: OT: paging MAC expert(s) --- What's a Performa? Message-ID: <707AA588EE28D311BCD50090276D7D0002146DE8@BUSH02> Interestingly, the A590 has an XT-IDE controller, ... So does the A2091. Lee. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- ---- This email is intended only for the above named addressee(s). The information contained in this email may contain information which is confidential. The views expressed in this email are personal to the sender and do not in any way reflect the views of the company. If you have received this email and you are not a named addressee please delete it from your system and contact Merlin Communications International IT Department on +44 20 7344 5888. _____________________________________________________________________ This message has been checked for all known viruses by Star Internet delivered through the MessageLabs Virus Scanning Service. For further information visit http://www.star.net.uk/stats.asp or alternatively call Star Internet for details on the Virus Scanning Service. From gwynp at artware.qc.ca Sat Nov 24 03:20:45 2001 From: gwynp at artware.qc.ca (gwynp@artware.qc.ca) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:11:30 2005 Subject: Continuing tale of the Powerserver 320H In-Reply-To: <3.0.2.32.20011123224503.01004fa4@obregon.multi.net.co> Message-ID: On 24-Nov-2001 Carlos Murillo wrote: > It worked, why, of course! why didn't I think about it? You will the next time you have this problem, grasshoper. -Philip From pete at dunnington.u-net.com Sat Nov 24 04:13:14 2001 From: pete at dunnington.u-net.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:11:30 2005 Subject: Continuing tale of the Powerserver 320H In-Reply-To: Carlos Murillo "Re: Continuing tale of the Powerserver 320H" (Nov 23, 22:43) References: <3BFEA718.50452F40@manizales.autonoma.edu.co> <3.0.2.32.20011123224341.00ffc3a4@obregon.multi.net.co> Message-ID: <10111241013.ZM24639@mindy.dunnington.u-net.com> On Nov 23, 22:43, Carlos Murillo wrote: > >> # passwd > >> cannot execute > > > >Probably the executable isn't in your PATH. > > No, apparently when the file isn't found the msg is ": not found" . > I tried all sane locations for the passwd program. "cannot execute" > means something else, perhaps a permissions or restricted shell issue. I meant that it may find the file /etc/passwd and realise it's not executable. To be honest, I wouldn't expect most things -- including passwd -- to work under a maintenance shell. > > If you have the filesystems > >mounted (BTW, why "mymnt" not just "mnt"? That's what mnt is for) you can > >add the relevant directories > > > >PATH=/mymnt/hd2/bin:$PATH > > I did something similar; I copied all stuff in the ram-based /usr > to another ram-based /usr1 and added /usr1/bin, /usr1/sbin and so > on to the path, the idea being that after I used getrootfs I would not > lose the previously available tools (while getrootfs seemed to change > the actual anchoring of / from the ram to the HD device, it failed to > properly mount /usr; however, the earlier ram-based tree at /usr became > unavailable after the execution of getrootfs, leaving out the "mount" program, > even though the mounting of /dev/hd2 at /usr had failed) > > >but it might be better (if you just have two partitions on the hard drive) > >to mount hd2 directly on /mnt, and then mount hd4 on /mnt/usr. At least > >then things will be in the correct places relative to each other. There > >isn't a directory called "/root", is there? > > Yes, I did not keep relative mounting closeness in my arrangement. > I'll have to check about the existence of /root (I'm away > from the machine now) If you *can* run things from the mounted filesystems, the relative positions of the bin, lib, etc directories may matter. But the contents may not work anyway; you're not running a full kernel, only a very limited stand-alone maintenance program. > >You could try the "users" command, though I expect it only works on a > >normal system (ie not from the maintenacne shell, which is sort of a mini > >system, like the miniroot or standalone shell in IRIX and Solaris). If you > >can edit /etc/passwd with ed, you can probably remove the password field > >from root's entry, leaving a null field (no password). > > No ed so far; Then it seems you'll have to use cat and echo, I suppose. Cat the file to see what's in it, then use echo to put modified versions of the lines you need into some other file. > /mymnt/hd4/etc/security/passwd and opasswd exist, but they > are in a totally unknown format--anything like unix. What does a line in each of those look like? Normally etc/security/passwd contains lines with username, encrypted password, lastupdate, restrictions (if this is null, it means "none"; alternatives are "nologin" and "nouse"), and a field describing audit classes used for accounting. /etc/security/passwd is roughly the equivalent of the /etc/shadow file used by other UNIXes, not the equivalent of /etc/passwd; opasswd is either an older version, or the original /etc/passwd before it was converted to use shadowing. It might be worth trying to rename them or move them somewhere else, then replace /etc/passwd (move the original somewhere else) with one containing a null field instead of the indicator (usually 'x' in UNIX but '!' in AIX) that tells AIX to look in /etc/security/passwd of the password data. So you end up with an /etc/passwd that has a line like: root::0:0::/: instead of root:!:0:0::/: > Could I replace a known encrypted (that is, under another unix > variant) password in the corresponding token? I can't remember if AIX of that vintage used the same algorithm for encrypting passwords. I think so. But I think it would be much easier just to null out the password field (in either /etc/passwd or better still in /etc/security/passwd). If you can then boot the system properly and log in as root with no password, then you can set one in the normal way. -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager University of York From dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com Sat Nov 24 10:21:22 2001 From: dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com (Douglas Quebbeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:11:30 2005 Subject: Intel C8080A chip brings $565 on EBAY Message-ID: <7A9BACCEF0171D4FB77019F5104CDD37225973@jeffserver.tegjeff.com> > John, > > What would some of the white ceramic package with gold leads 1702 eproms > be worth? I watched that one ebay auction for five finish, but the > comments on the retracted bid makes me wonder. I've got a PTC 2KRO with some white/gold 1702s in it... with some kind of monitor, haven't plugged the board into the SOL to see what they are... I was afraid they'd end up at an address that would keep the SOL from booting. I wonder if my Needham burner can read 1702s? -dq From dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com Sat Nov 24 10:23:52 2001 From: dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com (Douglas Quebbeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:11:30 2005 Subject: NeXTs (was Re: Radio Shack abandons components) Message-ID: <7A9BACCEF0171D4FB77019F5104CDD37225974@jeffserver.tegjeff.com> > On Fri, 23 Nov 2001, Douglas Quebbeman wrote: > > > Apparantly, there are parts of the US where you can't swing a dead cat > > without hitting a Lisa that someone wants to get rid of... > > Yeah, but probably because there are no readily available dead cats in > those parts. Ah, Fiesta Cats, I read about that in a Famous Comic Book Once Upon a Time... Anyone remeber Freewheelin' Franklin's motto? (no posting the quote, please.. way OT). -dq From vax at knm.yi.org Sat Nov 24 10:47:59 2001 From: vax at knm.yi.org (Matt London) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:11:30 2005 Subject: Anyone got a spare QBus VAX CPU (and/or DELQA)? Message-ID: Hi, I'm sat here in my room at home looking at a completely empty BA23 and thinking - I should get this up and running :&) I have another BA23 that's up and running with a MVII (KA630+8M board) and I was thinking another KA630 would make this BA23 into another operable machine :&) If someone in the UK has any spare Qbus bits laying around... :&) On a slightly more urgent point - I'm in need of a DELQA (or a DEQNA(?)) for my MVII - I can probably get away without a cab kit and manufacture something myself - I've got a spare ethernet transceier and a couple of 15pin D sockets (from old ISA IO cards, when they came with a game port :&) I'm happy to pay postage in the UK - might even stretch to a pickup if it's not too far from manchester :&) (oh - and I'm probably in london mid december sometime for a day) -- Matt --- Web Page: http://knm.yi.org/ http://pkl.net/~matt/ PGP Key fingerprint = 00BF 19FE D5F5 8EAD 2FD5 D102 260E 8BA7 EEE4 8D7F PGP Key http://knm.yi.org/matt-pgp.html From edick at idcomm.com Sat Nov 24 11:13:29 2001 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:11:30 2005 Subject: Intel C8080A chip brings $565 on EBAY References: <7A9BACCEF0171D4FB77019F5104CDD37225973@jeffserver.tegjeff.com> Message-ID: <000901c1750b$567b5d60$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> I made one of my infamous "high-tech-tie-tacks" out of one of these white ceramic-with-gold-leads 1702's. It's quite an atractive piece of jewelry. These parts are still routinely available, though not every day, for a couple of bucks at local surplus outlets, so I'v enot been concerned about their scarcity. Nope, your Needham burner probably can't deal with the 1702. It was a difficult part to program, unlike what the Needham type burners (5-volt-supply-only, IIRC) normally handle. The 1702 required a -9-volt supply, IIRC, and not just the -5-volt supply that the later multi-voltage parts required. The 1702, IIRC required a significant negative voltage, (-49 volts or so) for programming and few programmers, other than the Data I/O Model 29 that I occasionally used at work, would do that. Consequently, they'd probably not have suppported the I'm not even sure the Needham programmer will do the 2708 and 3-voltage 2716's. Will they? National made an MM5203 that was also 256-bytes in size and was also difficult to program. It was an even more suitable part for jewelry, as it had a gold flash all over its upper surface. It was quite a striking piece of hardware with its large gold surface and extra thick quartz window glued to the top. Dick ----- Original Message ----- From: "Douglas Quebbeman" To: Sent: Saturday, November 24, 2001 9:21 AM Subject: RE: Intel C8080A chip brings $565 on EBAY > > John, > > > > What would some of the white ceramic package with gold leads 1702 eproms > > be worth? I watched that one ebay auction for five finish, but the > > comments on the retracted bid makes me wonder. > > I've got a PTC 2KRO with some white/gold 1702s in it... with some > kind of monitor, haven't plugged the board into the SOL to see > what they are... I was afraid they'd end up at an address that > would keep the SOL from booting. > > I wonder if my Needham burner can read 1702s? > > -dq > > > From jhellige at earthlink.net Sat Nov 24 11:41:40 2001 From: jhellige at earthlink.net (Jeff Hellige) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:11:30 2005 Subject: Anyone got a spare QBus VAX CPU (and/or DELQA)? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: > I'm sat here in my room at home looking at a completely empty BA23 and >thinking - I should get this up and running :&) > I have another BA23 that's up and running with a MVII (KA630+8M >board) and I was thinking another KA630 would make this BA23 into another >operable machine :&) > If someone in the UK has any spare Qbus bits laying around... :&) Matt, I've got an extra KA630 if you don't get any replies from someone with one in the UK. I'm in the US though. Jeff -- Home of the TRS-80 Model 2000 FAQ File http://www.cchaven.com http://www.geocities.com/siliconvalley/lakes/6757 From cmurillo at emtelsa.multi.net.co Sat Nov 24 12:39:44 2001 From: cmurillo at emtelsa.multi.net.co (Carlos Murillo) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:11:30 2005 Subject: Continuing tale of the Powerserver 320H In-Reply-To: References: <3.0.2.32.20011123224503.01004fa4@obregon.multi.net.co> Message-ID: <3.0.2.32.20011124133944.00ffff34@obregon.multi.net.co> At 11:32 PM 11/23/01 -0600, Paul wrote: >That is a neat trick. Now when you mount your root disk and it moves root >to there does this show a normal number of files in the various /bin /sbin >/etc directories? > >I am wondering if perhaps someone tried another neat trick of an rm -rf * >on your disk which stopped after rm was deleted or number of files rm >could handle was exceeded due to environment limitations. No, I think that /dev/hd2 and /dev/hd4 still have all the original files. There are binaries for ls and others there, but when I try to run them I immediately get a succint "killed" message. I wonder if this "recovery" shell isn't meant to run executables on the HD. carlos. -------------------------------------------------------------- Carlos E. Murillo-Sanchez carlos_murillo@nospammers.ieee.org From erd_6502 at yahoo.com Sat Nov 24 13:25:56 2001 From: erd_6502 at yahoo.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:11:30 2005 Subject: OT: paging MAC expert(s) --- What's a Performa? In-Reply-To: <707AA588EE28D311BCD50090276D7D0002146DE8@BUSH02> Message-ID: <20011124192556.9769.qmail@web20102.mail.yahoo.com> --- "Davison, Lee" wrote: > > Interestingly, the A590 has an XT-IDE controller, ... > > So does the A2091. As does the Commodore Colt. I got a drive for mine from a 20Mb Hard Card (of later manufacture). No doubt the connecting thread is that they had a room full of them and so they added the control port to the chip used for the A590/A2091 to use them up. I think some A590s shipped with XT-IDE drives, but I don't think they even populated the connector on the A2091 (but I did, to play with it). -ethan __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! GeoCities - quick and easy web site hosting, just $8.95/month. http://geocities.yahoo.com/ps/info1 From optimus at canit.se Sat Nov 24 13:27:55 2001 From: optimus at canit.se (Iggy Drougge) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:11:30 2005 Subject: OT: paging MAC expert(s) --- What's a Performa? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <1765.728T2750T12276795optimus@canit.se> Jeff Hellige skrev: >>Interestingly, the A590 has an XT-IDE controller, the A2090 an ST506. Both >>have SCSI, of course. I had the questionable pleasure of seeing an Amiga >>2000 with *two* ST506 hard drives last week when were given one by a former >>member. One was connected to the 2090, one to an 8-bit ISA controller for >>the A2088 bridgeboard. Hideous sight, not to mention the sound. =/ > I definately remember the A2000's with ST506 drives >installed. During my first exposure to Amiga's it was a big deal if >you had a controller that would actually autoboot vice needing a >floppy to boot the machine at least part way. The Tecmar hard disk >assembly on my A1000 is like that...the drivers for the controller >are loaded off of the Workbench floppy. Now that I actually have two >of the drives for my Tecmar controller though I should open one up >and see what's inside of it. In the '87-88 timeframe it was the >cost of the controller/drive combos for the Amiga that initially made >me shy away from them. The A2090 is a bit of a bother in that regard. I believe the oldest revisions wouldn't autoboot at all, whereas newer revisions would, at least after a ROM update. However, it didn't use Commodore's standard for autobooting drives (Is this what RDB does?) and AFAIK, it can't be manipulated with HDToolbox. The MFM drives need to have particular partition names, too, which also alter the order of SCSI partitions. I suppose it does what it's supposed to do if you just use it as a cheap way to get a SCSI card for connecting the occasional SyQuest or scanner, but it certainly wouldn't be my prime choice for a SCSI card. =/ -- En ligne avec Thor 2.6a. A bore is a man who deprives you of solitude without providing you with company. From jhellige at earthlink.net Fri Nov 23 00:04:55 2001 From: jhellige at earthlink.net (Jeff Hellige) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:11:30 2005 Subject: paging MAC expert(s) --- What's a Performa? In-Reply-To: <002101c17432$a7422000$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> Message-ID: <01Nov24.182819est.119101@gateway.mediacen.navy.mil> I still see 30GB drives on the shelf quite a bit. I saw one the other day marked at $120. I've also seen some good deals on 6GB UW SCSI drives at places like Smalldog Electronics. Jeff On 23-Nov-01, Richard Erlacher wrote: > Can you still get a drive that small? > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Ian Koller" > To: > Sent: Friday, November 23, 2001 2:01 AM > Subject: Re: OT: paging MAC expert(s) --- What's a Performa? >> >> Iggy Drougge wrote: >>> Hard drives are expensive and messy. >> >> What's a 40 Gb hard drive cost in Sweden? >> >> Anybody know what a 40 Gb is at CompUSA here in the US? -- ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- Amiga 3000, Cyberstorm MkII 060/50, GVP Spectrum, Xsurf ethernet, Amiga OS 3.9, 4GB Quantum Fireball, HD floppy, 36MB FastRAM http://www.cchaven.com From optimus at canit.se Sat Nov 24 17:37:48 2001 From: optimus at canit.se (Iggy Drougge) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:11:30 2005 Subject: Preserving old literature (was: Re: Tandy 10 Info Wanted) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <366.729T2400T375969optimus@canit.se> XenoSoft skrev: >> I swear, from some of the things you folks say, it >> seems like most of you live in some third world country. >Yes. >California. Isn't that where the Silicon Valley is located? -- En ligne avec Thor 2.6a. There are two major products that come from Berkeley: LSD and UNIX. We don't believe this to be a coincidence. -- Jeremy S. Anderson From ernestls at home.com Sat Nov 24 17:51:16 2001 From: ernestls at home.com (Ernest) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:11:30 2005 Subject: Say it ain't so, Joe! (HP stuff to clear out) In-Reply-To: <00c301c17411$15608e40$7937fea9@Guerney> Message-ID: If anyone is interested, I have a deluxe HP150 setup that I need to part with. In fact, it's more of a 150/110/110+ setup. Original 150 touchscreen, with tilt monitor and stand, and the thermal printer built in. (new batteries to) Several different HD/FD base units. A giant collection of the cloth user manuals for the model 100 series (some specific to 150 or 110.)with original software. Model 110 portable, with leather case and external HP portable printer. Model 110+ portable, with leather case The brown interface device to go between the 150 and 110 systems (HP/IB to HP/IL) All the cabling and power packs for everything. I have other related items that I'm forgetting but basically, it's a complete and very clean, fully functional setup. I'm in the Seattle area if anyone is interested. Ernest ernestls@home.com From clascmp at highgate.comm.sfu.ca Sat Nov 24 17:56:08 2001 From: clascmp at highgate.comm.sfu.ca (Kevin McQuiggin) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:11:30 2005 Subject: Northstar Horizons Possibly Available Message-ID: <200111242356.fAONu9N72838@highgate.comm.sfu.ca> Hi Gang: I just completed grad school yesterday, and as such am hoping to be back into classiccmp more regularly! I noted this afternoon that there are 2 Northstar "Horizons" possibly available on campus. I'm not into these S-100 (IIRC) beasts but others may be. Can anyone tell me something about them? Anybody interested in adopting them? They're in poor to fair shape, but look like one could get them going again without too much trouble. Kevin -- Kevin McQuiggin VE7ZD mcquiggi@sfu.ca From dan at ekoan.com Sat Nov 24 18:33:32 2001 From: dan at ekoan.com (Dan Veeneman) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:11:30 2005 Subject: Northstar Horizons Possibly Available In-Reply-To: <200111242356.fAONu9N72838@highgate.comm.sfu.ca> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20011124193234.02ce6ec0@enigma> At 03:56 PM 11/24/01 -0800, you wrote: >Anybody interested in adopting them? They're in poor to fair shape, but look >like one could get them going again without too much trouble. Hi Kevin, Congratulations on finishing grad school. Where are you located? Cheers, Dan From pete at dunnington.u-net.com Sat Nov 24 19:13:41 2001 From: pete at dunnington.u-net.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:11:30 2005 Subject: PDP-8/E questions Message-ID: <10111250113.ZM26157@mindy.dunnington.u-net.com> I've got my PDP-8/E cleaned (no more "small" of cat) and partly re-assembled. I've successfully toggled in and run Allison's inchworm program. I handwashed the plastic front panel. I treated the plastic foam from under the backplanes to the hottest wash the washing machine can do, and replaced the rest of the foam (which was crumbly) from the lid. I ran the cards (not the core matrix, though!), backplanes, and over-the-top connectors through the dishwasher, along with some of the smaller parts of the case. I dried the cards with compressed air, and washed out the backplanes and connectors with IPA before blowing them dry too. I treated the switches to a little low-residue cleaner/lubricant. I washed the case with Flash (a proprietary household detergent-type cleaner for floors). I took the fans and relay out of the PSU and then sprayed the inside with enzyme/detergent-based stain remover, hosed it off, drained it, rinsed with about a litre of IPA and then dried it off (compressed air first, then warm air from the hair drier for a few hours). It smells fine now, and it's *very* clean :-) I've almost put everything back together, but I have a few questions before I finish it off. The front bezel (frame round the panel) has been repainted white, and the paint has flaked or chipped off in places, to reveal a chipped coat of beige paint. I'd like to refinish and respray it. What's the correct colour? I'm toying with the idea of replacing the LEDs with bi-pin bulbs, as the panel was originally a bulb panel. The resistors for the warm-up current have been clipped out. What value should they be? What's J5 (3-pin Mate-N-Lok) on the PSU for? And lastly (for now :-)), which direction should the fans blow? The fans in this machine are not original, and I suspect they were put in back-to-front. They were drawing air in from the right (as you look from the front) of the machine, through the cards, into the PSU, and blowing it out through the six large heatsinks and out of the left side of the machine. I think this is the wrong way round, as the laminar flow over the cards won't be as effective as the turbulent flow in the other direction. But what's the normal way in an 8/E? And was there supposed to be a filter anywhere? From jhellige at earthlink.net Sat Nov 24 19:16:01 2001 From: jhellige at earthlink.net (Jeff Hellige) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:11:30 2005 Subject: Lisa Success.....finally... In-Reply-To: <200111242356.fAONu9N72838@highgate.comm.sfu.ca> References: <200111242356.fAONu9N72838@highgate.comm.sfu.ca> Message-ID: Well after working on it off and on for over two years I finally got my Lisa to actually boot up tonight. I've been trying to put it back to Lisa2 specs vice Mac XL and I had swapped a 400k floppy back into it in place of the 800k upgrade that had been peformed. Unfortunately the machine would never power on properly without the XL screenkit installed. Finally tonight I said the heck with it and reinstalled all the parts to the XL screenkit and powered it on, attempting to boot from Macworks XL 3.0 and the Macworks System Disk (Mac Finder 4.1). It worked! Both disks were 400k disks and made from images gotten off of the web. I'm tempted to put the SCSI card/drive back into it and see what I can do with it, though it'd be nice to still figure out what's going on with the original-style CPU card and video system and get it working as a Lisa again. Jeff -- Home of the TRS-80 Model 2000 FAQ File http://www.cchaven.com http://www.geocities.com/siliconvalley/lakes/6757 From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat Nov 24 19:28:10 2001 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:11:31 2005 Subject: PDP-8/E questions In-Reply-To: <10111250113.ZM26157@mindy.dunnington.u-net.com> from "Pete Turnbull" at Nov 25, 1 01:13:41 am Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1800 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20011125/64e79b57/attachment-0001.ksh From jhingber at ix.netcom.com Sat Nov 24 19:37:38 2001 From: jhingber at ix.netcom.com (Jeffrey H. Ingber) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:11:31 2005 Subject: Lisa Success.....finally... In-Reply-To: References: <200111242356.fAONu9N72838@highgate.comm.sfu.ca> Message-ID: <1006652262.2254.0.camel@eleusis> Congrats. I have my own Lisa problems that you might be able to shed some light on. It seems you've spend more time with the machine than I: I have what I beleive to be a Mac XL. It might be a Lisa II, but I'm not sure what the differences are. The system works well enough to power on and boot into MacWorks - but the mouse doesn't register button clicks (the mouse is good, and tested with an older Mac). The mouse I have has a more 'square' mouse button as opposed to the long, thin 'rectanguar' mouse button sometimes seen with these machines: The mouse is marked: M0100 *G442MO10006348* Also, the mouse connector on the motherboard doesn't mate well with the mouse I have. There are no 'receptacles' to catch the thumbscrews on the mouse, and there ins't the ususal metal 'band' around the D-Sub connector on the motherboard. It's either not supposed to be there, or it acts as a ground and is missing. I suspect this why the mouse doesn't register button clicks but I'm not sure. I'll relace the connector with a new one, but only if I'm sure this is the problem. Jeffrey H. Ingber (jhingber _at_ ix.netcom.com) On Sat, 2001-11-24 at 20:16, Jeff Hellige wrote: > Well after working on it off and on for over two years I > finally got my Lisa to actually boot up tonight. I've been trying to > put it back to Lisa2 specs vice Mac XL and I had swapped a 400k > floppy back into it in place of the 800k upgrade that had been > peformed. Unfortunately the machine would never power on properly > without the XL screenkit installed. Finally tonight I said the heck > with it and reinstalled all the parts to the XL screenkit and powered > it on, attempting to boot from Macworks XL 3.0 and the Macworks > System Disk (Mac Finder 4.1). It worked! Both disks were 400k disks > and made from images gotten off of the web. I'm tempted to put the > SCSI card/drive back into it and see what I can do with it, though > it'd be nice to still figure out what's going on with the > original-style CPU card and video system and get it working as a Lisa > again. > > Jeff > -- > Home of the TRS-80 Model 2000 FAQ File > http://www.cchaven.com > http://www.geocities.com/siliconvalley/lakes/6757 > From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Sat Nov 24 19:51:08 2001 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (ajp166) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:11:31 2005 Subject: Northstar Horizons Possibly Available Message-ID: <003601c17555$7a315d50$89ee9a8d@ajp166> I have two already, not adoption here. But if you need info... Basic machine is S100 Z80/4mhz, if ut ran NS* dos no memory below 2000h so usual config there is 48 maybe 52k. If it's running CPM then ram from 0000 to E800 and continues at F000 to FFFFh. Two serial ports, One parallel that can be centronics compatable as an option. FDC is raw TTL, runs hard sector 10 per track and if the later controller is installed double density at 10 sectors by 512bytes with up to 80 tracks and two sides (800k). The older single density controller was 10 sctors by 256 by 35/40 tracks single sided(80/100k) . Media is getting hard to find but is reliable. An easy machine to get and keep running. Most common upgrade was memory and a softsector controller. Allison -----Original Message----- From: Kevin McQuiggin To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org Date: Saturday, November 24, 2001 7:15 PM Subject: Northstar Horizons Possibly Available >Hi Gang: > >I just completed grad school yesterday, and as such am hoping to be back >into classiccmp more regularly! > >I noted this afternoon that there are 2 Northstar "Horizons" possibly available >on campus. > >I'm not into these S-100 (IIRC) beasts but others may be. Can anyone tell me >something about them? > >Anybody interested in adopting them? They're in poor to fair shape, but look >like one could get them going again without too much trouble. > >Kevin > >-- >Kevin McQuiggin VE7ZD >mcquiggi@sfu.ca From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Sat Nov 24 20:03:34 2001 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (ajp166) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:11:31 2005 Subject: PDP-8/E questions Message-ID: <003701c17555$7ad95d20$89ee9a8d@ajp166> From: Pete Turnbull >The front bezel (frame round the panel) has been repainted white, and the >paint has flaked or chipped off in places, to reveal a chipped coat of >beige paint. I'd like to refinish and respray it. What's the correct >colour? DEC gray #68 A color close to eggshell toward very light gray. >I'm toying with the idea of replacing the LEDs with bi-pin bulbs, as the >panel was originally a bulb panel. The resistors for the warm-up current >have been clipped out. What value should they be? leave the leds, likely that mod was done very long ago. The lamps tended to die too often. >What's J5 (3-pin Mate-N-Lok) on the PSU for? Power controller. astly (for now :-)), which direction should the fans blow? The fans >in this machine are not original, and I suspect they were put in >back-to-front. They were drawing air in from the right (as you look from >the front) of the machine, through the cards, into the PSU, and blowing it >out through the six large heatsinks and out of the left side of the >machine. I think this is the wrong way round, as the laminar flow over the >cards won't be as effective as the turbulent flow in the other direction. > But what's the normal way in an 8/E? And was there supposed to be a >filter anywhere? Unknown on direction, I think "out". Filter was a layer of foam where there was one. I have a an 8f so they are somewhat different but the fans blow in across the cards. The PS in the reaw with its own fan. The 8e has the power supply down the left side(facing the front from front) and thefrom right (input) to left (out through the PS). The power supply will tolerate higher temps if memory serves than core. Keeping the core cool and at a relatively constant temp was the key to stable ops. Allison From jhellige at earthlink.net Sat Nov 24 20:15:09 2001 From: jhellige at earthlink.net (Jeff Hellige) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:11:31 2005 Subject: Lisa Success.....finally... In-Reply-To: <1006652262.2254.0.camel@eleusis> References: <200111242356.fAONu9N72838@highgate.comm.sfu.ca> <1006652262.2254.0.camel@eleusis> Message-ID: >I have what I beleive to be a Mac XL. It might be a Lisa II, but I'm >not sure what the differences are. The system works well enough to Does yours have an external parallel connector or an internal hard disk or possibly both? I'm pretty sure all Mac XL's lack the external parallel connector, unless there's an expansion card fitted for use with the Profile drive, and that it would be like a Lisa 2/10 and have an internal hard disk. Mine's an earlier Lisa 2 with the external parallel connector, the LisaLite card for interfacing the floppy drive, and the I/O board with the batteries (though I've removed mine). Mine has also been fairly heavily modified, with the addition of the XL Screenkit, 800k floppy ROM and drive (which has since been replaced with 400k ROM and drive combo), SCSI card/drive expansion card, and an internal hard disk mounted just above the floppy. All mods courtesy of Sun Remarketing. >power on and boot into MacWorks - but the mouse doesn't register button >clicks (the mouse is good, and tested with an older Mac). The mouse I >have has a more 'square' mouse button as opposed to the long, thin >'rectanguar' mouse button sometimes seen with these machines: The mouse >is marked: > >M0100 >*G442MO10006348* Standard Mac 128k/Plus mouse. The main variation would be whether it was beige or 'platinum' colored. >Also, the mouse connector on the motherboard doesn't mate well with the >mouse I have. There are no 'receptacles' to catch the thumbscrews on >the mouse, and there ins't the ususal metal 'band' around the D-Sub >connector on the motherboard. It's either not supposed to be there, or >it acts as a ground and is missing. I suspect this why the mouse >doesn't register button clicks but I'm not sure. The original Lisa mice seem to have had an oddball clip connector. I've not actually seen one though, as I use a Mac Plus mouse with mine and my Lisa has the more standard D-sub connector with the screw stanchions. On one of my tests, I didn't have my mouse mated squarely and it wouldn't move the cursor up or down on the screen though it would move it sideways. Tightening the right-most screw on the connector solved this problem. Jeff -- Home of the TRS-80 Model 2000 FAQ File http://www.cchaven.com http://www.geocities.com/siliconvalley/lakes/6757 From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Sat Nov 24 20:31:28 2001 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (Ben Franchuk) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:11:31 2005 Subject: PDP-8/E questions References: <003701c17555$7ad95d20$89ee9a8d@ajp166> Message-ID: <3C005800.71AC5960@jetnet.ab.ca> ajp166 wrote: > >I'm toying with the idea of replacing the LEDs with bi-pin bulbs, as the > >panel was originally a bulb panel. The resistors for the warm-up > current > >have been clipped out. What value should they be? > > leave the leds, likely that mod was done very long ago. The lamps > tended to die too often. What about using white leds? Ben Franchuk. From gunther at aurora.regenstrief.org Sat Nov 24 20:37:35 2001 From: gunther at aurora.regenstrief.org (Gunther Schadow) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:11:31 2005 Subject: [Fwd: RA90: What's error E0 and 7C (and others)?] Message-ID: <3C00596F.20205@aurora.regenstrief.org> Hi, please, someone with an RA90 service manual (Joop?) can you give me a list of the error codes? Or is the RA9x service manual scanned somewhere? I have tested out my two SA600 racks' worth of RA90 drives and found that 7 out of 16 have some problem. They all had a problem with their fans not spinning up at first, but after a couple of attempts this seems like not a big problem. There is only one that's really dead (drive, not power supply) in that the green LED at the rear (on the power supply) lights up only dim and nothing will come up at the front at all. This is same with a different PSU swapped on, so it's the drive, not the PSU. Not quite sure what to do with that one. But 4 or so of them fail only when trying to spin them up and return an error code 7C. It sounds like they do spin up but when trying to seek the fist time they immediately determine they failed. OTOH, in at least one case just retrying it a couple of times will eventually bring it up and running. Another 2 of them fail earlier when trying to spin up. They come up with erorr E0 pretty much as soon as it's trying to spin up. Yet another one comes up with various errors even before spinning up, and one more seems to work but somewhere down the road may or may not fail with various errors. 54 is one I can remember, but there were all kinds of numbers, none of which mentioned in the RA9x user manual. thanks for your generous advice, -Gunther PS: But I do have one full SA600 rack with working drives and boy, it's pretty impressive firing this up. So many buttons to push and lights to monitor, it's fun. One drive contains VMS 7.2 and I'm sure lots of goodies, but I will not back those up. Once I've switched to UNIX I can try RAID with them :-). Does anybody know if the HSC90 by itself does RAID given a disk array and the proper configuration? -- Gunther Schadow, M.D., Ph.D. gschadow@regenstrief.org Medical Information Scientist Regenstrief Institute for Health Care Adjunct Assistant Professor Indiana University School of Medicine tel:1(317)630-7960 http://aurora.regenstrief.org -- Gunther Schadow, M.D., Ph.D. gschadow@regenstrief.org Medical Information Scientist Regenstrief Institute for Health Care Adjunct Assistant Professor Indiana University School of Medicine tel:1(317)630-7960 http://aurora.regenstrief.org From UberTechnoid at home.com Sat Nov 24 20:31:07 2001 From: UberTechnoid at home.com (UberTechnoid@home.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:11:31 2005 Subject: OT: Fear and helpfulness on classiccmp In-Reply-To: <20011116100925.Y13355-100000@lepton.subatomix.com> Message-ID: <20011125024002.CJNW6448.femail43.sdc1.sfba.home.com@BENCHBOX> I have that problem with my Data General mini. I'm not supposed to have ANY of the tapes I have. The machine is mine, but all software - microcode included I'd bet are property of Data General Corporation as thier licenses have long expired and I'm not the licensee anyway. When the U.S. Forest Service retired thier fleet of DG MVxxxx computers, they did actually destroy all thier tapes, docs, etc. Even formatted the drives. I'm lucky to have what I've got really. Illegal copies though they may be, I rather doubt I'm getting pounded by anyone for hobbying with this machine. I suspect the worst a judge would do is order me to destroy/turn over the tapes. Regards, Jeff In <20011116100925.Y13355-100000@lepton.subatomix.com>, on 11/16/01 at 10:14 AM, "Jeffrey S. Sharp" said: >On Fri, 16 Nov 2001, James B. DiGriz wrote: >> Sometimes, even, it's more honorable to actually be a blatant outlaw >> or an honest thief. -- ----------------------------------------------------------- Jeffrey S. Worley Asheville, NC USA 828-6984887 UberTechnoid@Home.com ----------------------------------------------------------- From gunther at aurora.regenstrief.org Sat Nov 24 20:48:50 2001 From: gunther at aurora.regenstrief.org (Gunther Schadow) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:11:31 2005 Subject: Is HSC90 a PDP-11 or what? Message-ID: <3C005C12.8020108@aurora.regenstrief.org> Who knows what processor/architecture an HSC90 is? Is it a PDP-11? What's it's bus? Sounds like it doesn't mix with UNIBUS or Q-BUS cards at least not looking at the card numbers "Lxxxx" (HSC) vs. "Mxxxx" (UNIBUS/Q-BUS). The reason I'm asking is that I'm looking for the most multi- use of my big-iron hardware that takes up so much space. I believe I will be able to run the console computer of my future 11/78x as a PDP-11. Would be nice if this is possible with the HSC90 as well. I would like to: - provide a PDP-11/RSX-11 environment for my neighbor to play with without getting a dedicated PDP-11. Probably I can do that in the future with the LSI-11 of the VAX 11/78x that hopefully some day will decorate my garage. - try running 2.9 BSD on a PDP-11. Not knowing much about 2.x BSD, I could imagine making the HSC90 into a UNIX-based file server or something. regards, -Gunther -- Gunther Schadow, M.D., Ph.D. gschadow@regenstrief.org Medical Information Scientist Regenstrief Institute for Health Care Adjunct Assistant Professor Indiana University School of Medicine tel:1(317)630-7960 http://aurora.regenstrief.org From UberTechnoid at home.com Sat Nov 24 20:49:28 2001 From: UberTechnoid at home.com (UberTechnoid@home.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:11:31 2005 Subject: Video Tape Backup device.... (was: Re: Additional drive and supplemental info.) Message-ID: <20011125024916.CKBZ11395.femail39.sdc1.sfba.home.com@BENCHBOX> ------------------------------------------------------------------------- The following message is forwarded to you by UberTechnoid@Home.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------- >From: UberTechnoid@Home.com >Date: Sat, 24 Nov 2001 14:47:04 -0500 >To: "Bruce Lane" >In-Reply-To: <200111171454420865.087C791A@192.168.42.129> >Subject: Video Tape Backup device.... (was: Re: Additional drive and supplemental info.) I saw one advertized for the Atari 8-bits back in early 80's called the "Mirror tape" backup system from iirc Corvus? To tell the truth, I never really believed something like this would be reliable, but for three grand or more it HAD to be. Right? I'm still trying to wrap my head around how something like that worked. Just automate the front panel of a vrc and..... You could do random access even. Eeeeeeeeeewwwwwww. Gives me the willies. Especially a 'kit' version..... Regards, Jeff In <200111171454420865.087C791A@192.168.42.129>, on 11/17/01 at 02:54 PM, "Bruce Lane" said: > This one is light and small enough to be shipped. It's a 'Gigastore' >drive from Digi-Data Corp. Best of all, it includes the >operation/maintenance manual(!). > The 'Gigastore' is a weird device. What Digi-Data did is take a regular >VHS VCR, make some modifications to the transport assembly, and added >their own electronics to provide a Pertec interface. The result was a >tape backup system that used regular VHS tapes, could store up to 2.5 >gigabytes of data, and could interface to any Pertec controller. > This one's cheap: $25.00 or best offer, plus shipping. > Also, FYI: The HP 9-track drive I mentioned earlier would include the >manual. > Thanks much. >-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- >Bruce Lane, Owner & Head Hardware Heavy, >Blue Feather Technologies -- http://www.bluefeathertech.com >ARS KC7GR (Formerly WD6EOS) since 12-77 -- kyrrin@bluefeathertech.com >"I'll get a life when someone demonstrates that it would be superior to >what I have now..." (Taki Kogoma, aka Gym Z. Quirk) -- ----------------------------------------------------------- Jeffrey S. Worley Asheville, NC USA 828-6984887 UberTechnoid@Home.com ----------------------------------------------------------- ----------------------------------------------------- -- End of forwarded message ----------------------------------------------------- -- ----------------------------------------------------------- Jeffrey S. Worley Asheville, NC USA 828-6984887 UberTechnoid@Home.com ----------------------------------------------------------- From clascmp at highgate.comm.sfu.ca Sat Nov 24 21:25:46 2001 From: clascmp at highgate.comm.sfu.ca (Kevin McQuiggin) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:11:31 2005 Subject: Northstar Horizons Possibly Available In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20011124193234.02ce6ec0@enigma> Message-ID: <200111250325.fAP3Plh73070@highgate.comm.sfu.ca> Hi Dan: Thanks. I'm in Vancouver, BC. Kevin > At 03:56 PM 11/24/01 -0800, you wrote: > >Anybody interested in adopting them? They're in poor to fair shape, but look > >like one could get them going again without too much trouble. > > Hi Kevin, > > Congratulations on finishing grad school. Where are you located? > > > Cheers, > > Dan > > -- Kevin McQuiggin VE7ZD mcquiggi@sfu.ca From clascmp at highgate.comm.sfu.ca Sat Nov 24 21:33:58 2001 From: clascmp at highgate.comm.sfu.ca (Kevin McQuiggin) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:11:31 2005 Subject: Northstar Horizons Possibly Available In-Reply-To: <003601c17555$7a315d50$89ee9a8d@ajp166> Message-ID: <200111250333.fAP3XxM73099@highgate.comm.sfu.ca> Hi Allison: Thanks for the reply and long time no type! The machines are the earlier version from what I can tell from the 'Net, as they have wooden cases. They are currently in a pile with a bunch of other older stuff, chart recorders, dead terminals etc. so I will likely grab them next week, after I find whoever is in charge of this junk and get their permission to recover the machines. Thanks for the info, I'm not really into S-100 but I hate to see any early machine scrapped! Kevin -- Kevin McQuiggin VE7ZD mcquiggi@sfu.ca From healyzh at aracnet.com Sat Nov 24 22:05:36 2001 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:11:31 2005 Subject: PDP-8/E questions In-Reply-To: <10111250113.ZM26157@mindy.dunnington.u-net.com> Message-ID: >I'm toying with the idea of replacing the LEDs with bi-pin bulbs, as the >panel was originally a bulb panel. The resistors for the warm-up current >have been clipped out. What value should they be? I'd leave them! In fact I'd go so far as to say, I hope the PDP-8/E that should be arriving on Wednesday already has this mod. If not I'll have to see about converting it over to LED's while I'm fixing it up. Word of warning to all, I'll probably have lots of questions starting in a week or so, as long as I can find room to work, about fixing up a PDP-8/E and a PC04. On a possitive note, it's coming with pretty much complete documentation, so I won't be shooting in the dark like I was with my other PDP-8 a couple years ago. Zane -- | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator | | healyzh@aracnet.com (primary) | OpenVMS Enthusiast | | | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | PDP-10 Emulation and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | From fmc at reanimators.org Sat Nov 24 22:14:58 2001 From: fmc at reanimators.org (Frank McConnell) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:11:31 2005 Subject: Video Tape Backup device.... (was: Re: Additional drive and supplemental info.) In-Reply-To: UberTechnoid@home.com's message of "Sat, 24 Nov 2001 21:49:28 -0500" References: <20011125024916.CKBZ11395.femail39.sdc1.sfba.home.com@BENCHBOX> Message-ID: <200111250414.fAP4Ew982495@daemonweed.reanimators.org> UberTechnoid@home.com wrote: > I saw one advertized for the Atari 8-bits back in early 80's called the > "Mirror tape" backup system from iirc Corvus? Yes. I don't think it was so much for the Atari as it was for the Corvus hard disks. > To tell the truth, I never really believed something like this would be > reliable, but for three grand or more it HAD to be. Right? I've heard mixed reports, never actually tried to use it myself. > I'm still trying to wrap my head around how something like that worked. > Just automate the front panel of a vrc and..... You could do random access > even. Eeeeeeeeeewwwwwww. Gives me the willies. Especially a 'kit' > version..... Go check out US patent 4,380,047. That's the Corvus Mirror patent. -Frank McConnell From dancohoe at oxford.net Sat Nov 24 22:31:17 2001 From: dancohoe at oxford.net (Dan Cohoe) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:11:31 2005 Subject: Lisa Success.....finally... References: <200111242356.fAONu9N72838@highgate.comm.sfu.ca> <1006652262.2254.0.camel@eleusis> Message-ID: <3C007415.86844CDA@oxford.net> Jeff Hellige wrote: > > >I have what I ... snip > > The mouse I have has a more 'square' mouse button as opposed to the long, thin > >'rectanguar' mouse button sometimes seen with these machines: The mouse > >is marked: > > > >M0100 > >*G442MO10006348* > > Standard Mac 128k/Plus mouse. The main variation would be > whether it was beige or 'platinum' colored. > > >Also, the mouse connector on the motherboard doesn't mate well with the > >mouse I have. There are no 'receptacles' to catch the thumbscrews on > >the mouse, and there ins't the ususal metal 'band' around the D-Sub > >connector on the motherboard. It's either not supposed to be there, or > >it acts as a ground and is missing. I suspect this why the mouse > >doesn't register button clicks but I'm not sure. > > The original Lisa mice seem to have had an oddball clip > connector. I've not actually seen one though, as I use a Mac Plus > mouse with mine and my Lisa has the more standard D-sub connector > with the screw stanchions. On one of my tests, I didn't have my > mouse mated squarely and it wouldn't move the cursor up or down on > the screen though it would move it sideways. Tightening the > right-most screw on the connector solved this problem. > > Jeff > -- I have an original Lisa mouse here with the "clip style" connector. Its model A9M0050. The Mac Plus mouse seems to work for me as well. From jhellige at earthlink.net Sat Nov 24 22:42:43 2001 From: jhellige at earthlink.net (Jeff Hellige) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:11:31 2005 Subject: Lisa Success.....finally... In-Reply-To: <1006652262.2254.0.camel@eleusis> References: <200111242356.fAONu9N72838@highgate.comm.sfu.ca> <1006652262.2254.0.camel@eleusis> Message-ID: >Congrats. > >I have my own Lisa problems that you might be able to shed some light >on. It seems you've spend more time with the machine than I: > >I have what I beleive to be a Mac XL. It might be a Lisa II, but I'm >not sure what the differences are. The system works well enough to I've been messing around with mine some more and put the SCSI card/drive back into it and created a disk for MacWorks Plus, since that's what is needed to recognize the SCSI drive. I used my Color Classic for that. I booted it from various system floppies but was having some trouble because they were too old of a System folder/finder, as MacWorks Plus wants System 6. Finally I took an external hard disk that I've used in the past on my Mac PLUS, and which I knew had System 6.0.3 on it, and hooked it up to the SCSI board in the Lisa. It booted off of it just fine! Unfortunately I still haven't gotten the Lisa's internal SCSI drive to show up yet. Oddly as well, the Lisa keeps wanting to turn itself on ever few minutes unless I unplug it. Jeff -- Home of the TRS-80 Model 2000 FAQ File http://www.cchaven.com http://www.geocities.com/siliconvalley/lakes/6757 From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Sat Nov 24 22:39:39 2001 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (ajp166) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:11:31 2005 Subject: Northstar Horizons Possibly Available Message-ID: <006a01c1756c$b7863bf0$89ee9a8d@ajp166> From: Kevin McQuiggin >The machines are the earlier version from what I can tell from the 'Net, >as they have wooden cases. They are currently in a pile with a bunch of The wood case does not denote model age. Also they could have been upgraded as it was cheap and simple to do. >Thanks for the info, I'm not really into S-100 but I hate to see any early >machine scrapped! Cant blame you for that. I have two and they take enough room that more would be tough to take. However one of them has been in use for nearly 23 years now! >Kevin McQuiggin VE7ZD >mcquiggi@sfu.ca Ever work 6M? Allison KB1GMX From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Sat Nov 24 22:42:28 2001 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (ajp166) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:11:31 2005 Subject: PDP-8/E questions Message-ID: <006b01c1756c$bb138160$89ee9a8d@ajp166> From: Ben Franchuk >> >have been clipped out. What value should they be? >> >> leave the leds, likely that mod was done very long ago. The lamps >> tended to die too often. >What about using white leds? >Ben Franchuk. Why? Back then when the led mod was common red was the only available visible color for leds. White leds are a bit blue rich though they would work. One point is that there are some 28 or so leds/lamps and good ones will not be cheap and cleap ones will not be good. Allison From mrbill at mrbill.net Sat Nov 24 23:08:30 2001 From: mrbill at mrbill.net (Bill Bradford) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:11:31 2005 Subject: FS/FT: PDP core memory boards Message-ID: <20011124230830.Y14419@mrbill.net> I've got two of these: (from the Field Guide): H215 Unibus 8-Kword 18-bit (parity) H213 (used in MM11-LP, ME15) in what looks to be great (for their age) condition. I dont have a box to test them out in, however. Would like to trade for 10baseT ethernet switches, especially Kalpana or Cisco. Bill -- Bill Bradford mrbill@mrbill.net Austin, TX From ernestls at home.com Sat Nov 24 23:09:50 2001 From: ernestls at home.com (Ernest) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:11:31 2005 Subject: OT: Fear and helpfulness on classiccmp In-Reply-To: <20011125024002.CJNW6448.femail43.sdc1.sfba.home.com@BENCHBOX> Message-ID: > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-classiccmp@classiccmp.org > [mailto:owner-classiccmp@classiccmp.org]On Behalf Of > UberTechnoid@home.com > Sent: Saturday, November 24, 2001 6:31 PM > To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org > Subject: Re: OT: Fear and helpfulness on classiccmp > > > I have that problem with my Data General mini. I'm not supposed to have > ANY of the tapes I have. The machine is mine, but all software - > microcode included I'd bet are property of Data General Corporation as > thier licenses have long expired and I'm not the licensee anyway. > > When the U.S. Forest Service retired thier fleet of DG MVxxxx computers, > they did actually destroy all thier tapes, docs, etc. Even formatted the > drives. Kind of makes you sick to think about doesn't it. > I'm lucky to have what I've got really. Lucky yes but doesn't it seem stupid that all of that ireplacable software and documentation is destroyed. > Illegal copies though they may be, I rather doubt I'm getting pounded by > anyone for hobbying with this machine. I suspect the worst a judge would > do is order me to destroy/turn over the tapes. No judge is going to bother even looking at a case like that. Why? Because no one but busy bodies and dim-witted spoil sports would be mean enough to consider it in legal terms. The only people who would even pay attention to it would be ex grade school hall monitors and meter maids -in other words, people who have such meaningless and worthless lives that the only personal joy they get from living is to try to make other people feel as pathetic as they do. E. > From erd_6502 at yahoo.com Sat Nov 24 23:22:03 2001 From: erd_6502 at yahoo.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:11:31 2005 Subject: PDP-8/E questions In-Reply-To: <006b01c1756c$bb138160$89ee9a8d@ajp166> Message-ID: <20011125052203.6591.qmail@web20103.mail.yahoo.com> --- ajp166 wrote: > From: Ben Franchuk > >What about using white leds? > >Ben Franchuk. > > Why? Back then when the led mod was common red was the only > available visible color for leds. White leds are a bit blue rich though > they would work. One point is that there are some 28 or so leds/lamps > and good ones will not be cheap and cleap ones will not be good. At about $3/each, yes they are expensive, but only slightly more expensive than real DEC lamps. Personally, I'd go with either red LEDs or bulbs, since that's what's appropriate for the period. -ethan __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! GeoCities - quick and easy web site hosting, just $8.95/month. http://geocities.yahoo.com/ps/info1 From jhingber at ix.netcom.com Sat Nov 24 23:19:04 2001 From: jhingber at ix.netcom.com (Jeffrey H. Ingber) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:11:31 2005 Subject: Lisa Success.....finally... In-Reply-To: References: <200111242356.fAONu9N72838@highgate.comm.sfu.ca> <1006652262.2254.0.camel@eleusis> Message-ID: <1006665549.2254.2.camel@eleusis> On Sat, 2001-11-24 at 21:15, Jeff Hellige wrote: > >I have what I beleive to be a Mac XL. It might be a Lisa II, but I'm > >not sure what the differences are. The system works well enough to > > Does yours have an external parallel connector or an internal > hard disk or possibly both? I'm pretty sure all Mac XL's lack the > external parallel connector, unless there's an expansion card fitted > for use with the Profile drive, and that it would be like a Lisa 2/10 > and have an internal hard disk. Mine's an earlier Lisa 2 with the The system bears the following numbers under the screen: A6S0200 A6S0204 I can't read the labels above the numbers because the machine is on a bottom shelf, and I'm recovering from a broken arm =). It's equipped with a parallel port (?) addon-card and is accompanied by 2 ProFile external drives which I haven't tested. It also has an internal 10MB (?) Widget drive and a floppy drive, and no parallel ports on the motherboard. There is also another add-in card in the card cage which appears to be a SCSI card, as well as 2 memory boards which I beleive are 512K each. The system also has what appears to be an aftermarket 'glarescreen' installed. I haven't had time to play with the machine much yet, but it _appears_ to be functional with the exception of the mouse. Jeffrey H. Ingber (jhingber _at_ ix.netcom.com) > external parallel connector, the LisaLite card for interfacing the > floppy drive, and the I/O board with the batteries (though I've > removed mine). Mine has also been fairly heavily modified, with the > addition of the XL Screenkit, 800k floppy ROM and drive (which has > since been replaced with 400k ROM and drive combo), SCSI card/drive > expansion card, and an internal hard disk mounted just above the > floppy. All mods courtesy of Sun Remarketing. > > >power on and boot into MacWorks - but the mouse doesn't register button > >clicks (the mouse is good, and tested with an older Mac). The mouse I > >have has a more 'square' mouse button as opposed to the long, thin > >'rectanguar' mouse button sometimes seen with these machines: The mouse > >is marked: > > > >M0100 > >*G442MO10006348* > > Standard Mac 128k/Plus mouse. The main variation would be > whether it was beige or 'platinum' colored. > > >Also, the mouse connector on the motherboard doesn't mate well with the > >mouse I have. There are no 'receptacles' to catch the thumbscrews on > >the mouse, and there ins't the ususal metal 'band' around the D-Sub > >connector on the motherboard. It's either not supposed to be there, or > >it acts as a ground and is missing. I suspect this why the mouse > >doesn't register button clicks but I'm not sure. > > The original Lisa mice seem to have had an oddball clip > connector. I've not actually seen one though, as I use a Mac Plus > mouse with mine and my Lisa has the more standard D-sub connector > with the screw stanchions. On one of my tests, I didn't have my > mouse mated squarely and it wouldn't move the cursor up or down on > the screen though it would move it sideways. Tightening the > right-most screw on the connector solved this problem. > > Jeff > -- > Home of the TRS-80 Model 2000 FAQ File > http://www.cchaven.com > http://www.geocities.com/siliconvalley/lakes/6757 > From wmsmith at earthlink.net Sun Nov 25 00:11:33 2001 From: wmsmith at earthlink.net (Wayne M. Smith) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:11:31 2005 Subject: Lisa Success.....finally... References: <200111242356.fAONu9N72838@highgate.comm.sfu.ca> <1006652262.2254.0.camel@eleusis> Message-ID: <000d01c17578$08ef2460$589bb2d1@Smith.earthlink.net> > The original Lisa mice seem to have had an oddball clip > connector. I've not actually seen one though, as I use a Mac Plus > mouse with mine and my Lisa has the more standard D-sub connector > with the screw stanchions. On one of my tests, I didn't have my > mouse mated squarely and it wouldn't move the cursor up or down on > the screen though it would move it sideways. Tightening the > right-most screw on the connector solved this problem. > > Jeff > -- I have similar Lisa Mouse problems. The mouse, which previously worked, moves vertically but not horizontally. When you boot up the machine the mouse pointer starts out on the far left side of the screen but won't move to the right. I have opened the mouse and there is no problem with the rollers, and I have also traced the wires from the Lisa connector to the 6-pin internal connector in the mouse and there are no breaks. The IR paths also appear clear, but who knows. If you isolate and spin the spoked wheel that should move the mouse horizontally, the arrow jerks around a bit, but does not move off the left border. I have tried using a Mac 128K mouse, and can with that I don't get any movement in either direction. Any ideas, or do I have a board level problem. (I do have that nasty battery corrosion condition.) -W From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Sun Nov 25 00:12:05 2001 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (Ben Franchuk) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:11:31 2005 Subject: Lisa Success.....finally... References: <200111242356.fAONu9N72838@highgate.comm.sfu.ca> <1006652262.2254.0.camel@eleusis> Message-ID: <3C008BB5.8138BC3D@jetnet.ab.ca> Jeff Hellige wrote: > It booted off of it just fine! Unfortunately I > still haven't gotten the Lisa's internal SCSI drive to show up yet. > Oddly as well, the Lisa keeps wanting to turn itself on ever few > minutes unless I unplug it. It must be possessed! Keep a sharp ear out for strange moans from the HD, and floppies that never erase! Ben Franchuk. From cisin at xenosoft.com Sun Nov 25 00:20:07 2001 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin (XenoSoft)) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:11:31 2005 Subject: Preserving old literature (was: Re: Tandy 10 Info Wanted) In-Reply-To: <366.729T2400T375969optimus@canit.se> Message-ID: > >> I swear, from some of the things you folks say, it > >> seems like most of you live in some third world country. > >Yes. > >California. On 25 Nov 2001, Iggy Drougge wrote: > Isn't that where the Silicon Valley is located? Yes > -- > En ligne avec Thor 2.6a. > There are two major products that come from Berkeley: LSD and UNIX. > We don't believe this to be a coincidence. > -- Jeremy S. Anderson Neither LSD nor UNIX originated in Berkeley. But both achieved prominence there. From wmsmith at earthlink.net Sun Nov 25 00:59:05 2001 From: wmsmith at earthlink.net (Wayne M. Smith) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:11:31 2005 Subject: HP Composite Video Interface Card References: <006701c0933b$7404d080$ece9b3d1@Smith.earthlink.net> <200102101755.f1AHt5467295@daemonweed.reanimators.org> <045101c174c4$df93c520$c599b2d1@Smith.earthlink.net> Message-ID: <003701c1757e$ac98aae0$589bb2d1@Smith.earthlink.net> > > "Wayne M. Smith" wrote: > > > I am using an HP composite video card (98204A) in a > > > 9000/200 series and am getting a very small multiple > > > image on the screen. Is there something special about > > > HP composite video or is this just a bad card? I've > > > tried the card in both a 9000/200 and 9000/220 with the > > > same result. Any ideas? > > > > "Frank McConnell" wrote > > Just a wild guess, but if you have an HP 35731A monochrome monitor, > > try it with that. That wants composite video but with a horizontal > > frequency of 30KHz instead of the more usual 15KHz. HP used that on > > several different systems. > > Frank, you were right! I recently picked up a 35731A with a batch of HP > stuff, plugged it into the 98204A, and the video's perfect. Now that I > can see the output, I was also able to confirm that, as expected, an HP > Integral keyboard works with the series 200 HIL card. > > Now, if only I could find an OS. HPL or HP BASIC would be nice. > Never mind. Just hooked up a 9134 drive that was with the HP stuff I got and found that it has HP Basic 2.0 and Pascal on it. Yay! -W From spedraja at ono.com Sun Nov 25 03:26:11 2001 From: spedraja at ono.com (SP) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:11:31 2005 Subject: Datapoint 1100, 2200 and 5500 processors Message-ID: <00c201c17593$394a56a0$3f912a3e@margarita.spedraja.net> Hello. I recently received one book named "A guide for operating Datapoint Equipment". It is 88 pages long and describes very good all the processors and peripherals that could be attached to one of these systems. In another place in the Internet mentions that the cassette operating system of these machines was the CTOS (yes, the processor appeared to have a couple of cassette units and load the OS from one of it). Do somebody has software for this machine ? Is it possible to get something for one repository or download place ? Do it exists some documentation scanned or available ? I should like to know experiences of everyone with this machine if this can be possible. And finally... Somebody knows a place where one of these systems would be working or at least operative ? Thanks and Greetings SP From pete at dunnington.u-net.com Sat Nov 24 19:15:09 2001 From: pete at dunnington.u-net.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:11:31 2005 Subject: Northstar Horizons Possibly Available In-Reply-To: Kevin McQuiggin "Northstar Horizons Possibly Available" (Nov 24, 15:56) References: <200111242356.fAONu9N72838@highgate.comm.sfu.ca> Message-ID: <10111250115.ZM26170@mindy.dunnington.u-net.com> On Nov 24, 15:56, Kevin McQuiggin wrote: > Hi Gang: > > I just completed grad school yesterday, and as such am hoping to be back > into classiccmp more regularly! Congratulations! How timely... you'll see I have questions realted to my recently-acquired PDP-8 :-) -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager University of York From pete at dunnington.u-net.com Sun Nov 25 04:57:08 2001 From: pete at dunnington.u-net.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:11:31 2005 Subject: PDP-8/E questions In-Reply-To: "ajp166" "Re: PDP-8/E questions" (Nov 24, 21:03) References: <003701c17555$7ad95d20$89ee9a8d@ajp166> Message-ID: <10111251057.ZM26482@mindy.dunnington.u-net.com> On Nov 24, 21:03, ajp166 wrote: > From: Pete Turnbull > >The front bezel (frame round the panel) has been repainted white, and > the > >paint has flaked or chipped off in places, to reveal a chipped coat of > >beige paint. I'd like to refinish and respray it. What's the correct > >colour? > > DEC gray #68 A color close to eggshell toward very light gray. Sounds like a very pale grey, not quite white? A lot lighter than the panel on, say, an 11/34, or an 11/03? I'll see what I can find. Thanks! > >I'm toying with the idea of replacing the LEDs with bi-pin bulbs, as the > >panel was originally a bulb panel. The resistors for the warm-up > current > >have been clipped out. What value should they be? > > leave the leds, likely that mod was done very long ago. The lamps > tended to die too often. Yes, I'm sure it was done a long time ago, possibly even when the machine was new. Judging from the date codes on ICs and dates on some boards, it was made in early 1974. > >What's J5 (3-pin Mate-N-Lok) on the PSU for? > > Power controller. Are you thinking of the ones on the back (on the outside)? This one is inside, near the front, and I think Tony's suggestion (for the power fail) is right. > >Lastly (for now :-)), which direction should the fans blow? > Unknown on direction, I think "out". Filter was a layer of foam where > there > was one. I have a an 8f so they are somewhat different but the fans blow > in > across the cards. The PS in the reaw with its own fan. The 8e has the > power supply down the left side(facing the front from front) and thefrom > right > (input) to left (out through the PS). The power supply will tolerate > higher temps > if memory serves than core. Keeping the core cool and at a relatively > constant temp was the key to stable ops. In that case, I exercise my right to change my mind, and I think they probably are the right way round. The air blown out of the PSU isn't very warm, but it will presumably be warmer when I put lots of cards in and give it more of a load. At some point, I would like to try to get the original core working (it wasn't when I got it). Expect more questions, about debugging 8K core stacks, since I don't have a printset! -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager University of York From pete at dunnington.u-net.com Sun Nov 25 04:47:07 2001 From: pete at dunnington.u-net.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:11:31 2005 Subject: PDP-8/E questions In-Reply-To: ard@p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) "Re: PDP-8/E questions" (Nov 25, 1:28) References: Message-ID: <10111251047.ZM26477@mindy.dunnington.u-net.com> On Nov 25, 1:28, Tony Duell wrote: > > What's J5 (3-pin Mate-N-Lok) on the PSU for? > > AC output (centre-tapped) to the line time clock board or power-fail > interrupt board. Watch out, it comes straight from a secondary on the > mains transformer. There is a fuse, but it's in series with the centre > tap only. Which means that shorting the outside 2 pins together can burn > out the transformer. Ah. That would probably explain why I have a cable with two white wires on pins 1 and 3, and a red wire on pin 2, connected to a 6-pin single-row Mate-N-Lok (like the ones used on power regulators). > > And lastly (for now :-)), which direction should the fans blow? > > I am not sure what the offical way is, but if you reverse the fanse > aren't you going to be blowing hot air (heated by the PSU) over the logic > cards? Most machines I've got where the fans are between the logic and > the PSU draw air in over the logic and blow it out over the PSU heatsinks. It doesn't get very warm, but then there's not much in the machine at the moment. -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager University of York From pete at dunnington.u-net.com Sun Nov 25 06:11:21 2001 From: pete at dunnington.u-net.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:11:31 2005 Subject: PDP-8/E questions In-Reply-To: Ethan Dicks "Re: PDP-8/E questions" (Nov 24, 21:22) References: <20011125052203.6591.qmail@web20103.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <10111251211.ZM26525@mindy.dunnington.u-net.com> On Nov 24, 21:22, Ethan Dicks wrote: > > --- ajp166 wrote: > > From: Ben Franchuk > > >What about using white leds? > > >Ben Franchuk. > > > > Why? Back then when the led mod was common red was the only > > available visible color for leds. White leds are a bit blue rich though > > they would work. One point is that there are some 28 or so leds/lamps > > and good ones will not be cheap and cleap ones will not be good. Agreed. The LEDS are water-white plastic, but red-emitting. Each has its leads cut short, about 1/8" from the body, and a small 430R resistor soldered to the cathode and a wire (probably the trimmed-off resistor lead) to the anode. (Is this what some people have described as an "LED module" or is that something more substantial?) They then fit into the bi-pin lamp sockets. The resistors look like modern miniature metal film, but could be 20 years old. Similar red LEDs cost pennies, maybe 10p. 25p - 35p with integral resistor. Bi-pin bulbs of about the right voltage/current/intensity cost a bit more, about 50p each here. I did think about white LEDs, but they cost over ?3 each. As Allison says, I would need 28 (plus a bag of spares if I use lamps) and white LEDs give off a very cold bluish light, quite unlike the slightly yellow lamps. I thought about yellow LEDs, but they're much *too* yellow. Then I thought about pairs of LEDs, but that's just getting too silly. > At about $3/each, yes they are expensive, but only slightly more expensive > than real DEC lamps. Personally, I'd go with either red LEDs or bulbs, > since that's what's appropriate for the period. I think I'll stick with the existing LEDs and maybe "save up my pocket money" to buy 40 or so bulbs (28 plus a dozen spares). -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager University of York From jfoust at threedee.com Sun Nov 25 07:03:18 2001 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:11:31 2005 Subject: Rescue two CDC 844 (big) drives in Hamilton, Ontario Message-ID: <5.0.0.25.0.20011125070126.02354680@pc> Reply to him, not me. - John >Date: Sun, 25 Nov 2001 04:59:28 -0500 >From: Homer Seywerd >To: jfoust@threedee.com >Subject: Computer Rescue needed! > >Hello, >My name is Homer Seywerd and I know of two complete CDC 844 disk >drives. (sorry no cpu). These weigh about 500 lbs each, but have nice >rollers underneath, and are easy to push. (This makes them easy to push >up onto a truck, or more likely in this case, into a skip). > >I have been browsing the internet looking for a news group or something >to advertise their availability, and would appreciate your help in >locating a home for them. If now one is interested, I guess I'll strip >them for parts. Size is 4-1/2' x 2-1/2' x 4' approx. > >These are located in Hamilton, Ontario CANADA. There shouldn't be any >problem getting them across the border. > >Thanks, >Homer Seywerd >Dundas, Ontario From achim.buerger at online-club.de Sun Nov 25 10:35:45 2001 From: achim.buerger at online-club.de (Dr. Achim Buerger) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:11:31 2005 Subject: Say it ain't so, Joe! Message-ID: <3C011DE0.78771988@online-club.de> Hello Joe, I feel sorry that I can't pick up a 9825 because I live in germany. Is there any chance to ship a machine? Regards, Achim From meltlet at fastmail.fm Sun Nov 25 10:48:58 2001 From: meltlet at fastmail.fm (Alex White) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:11:31 2005 Subject: test... Message-ID: <1006706942.2333.0.camel@stolichnaya.meltie.mine.nu> ...ing, please ignore! From dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com Sun Nov 25 10:58:51 2001 From: dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com (Douglas Quebbeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:11:31 2005 Subject: Intel C8080A chip brings $565 on EBAY Message-ID: <7A9BACCEF0171D4FB77019F5104CDD37225979@jeffserver.tegjeff.com> > National made an MM5203 that was also 256-bytes in size and was also difficult > to program. It was an even more suitable part for jewelry, as it had a gold > flash all over its upper surface. It was quite a striking piece of hardware > with its large gold surface and extra thick quartz window glued to the top. Ditto the 5204, which PTC used in the first SOL personalty modules... -dq From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Sun Nov 25 10:28:22 2001 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (Ben Franchuk) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:11:32 2005 Subject: PDP-8/E questions References: <20011125052203.6591.qmail@web20103.mail.yahoo.com> <10111251211.ZM26525@mindy.dunnington.u-net.com> Message-ID: <3C011C26.BFFB055F@jetnet.ab.ca> Pete Turnbull wrote: > Agreed. The LEDS are water-white plastic, but red-emitting. Each has its > leads cut short, about 1/8" from the body, and a small 430R resistor > soldered to the cathode and a wire (probably the trimmed-off resistor lead) > to the anode. (Is this what some people have described as an "LED module" > or is that something more substantial?) They then fit into the bi-pin lamp > sockets. The resistors look like modern miniature metal film, but could be > 20 years old. I don't think aging will be that bad. A tube amp yes, but not a led. > Similar red LEDs cost pennies, maybe 10p. 25p - 35p with integral > resistor. Bi-pin bulbs of about the right voltage/current/intensity cost a > bit more, about 50p each here. I did think about white LEDs, but they cost > over ?3 each. As Allison says, I would need 28 (plus a bag of spares if I > use lamps) and white LEDs give off a very cold bluish light, quite unlike > the slightly yellow lamps. I thought about yellow LEDs, but they're much > *too* yellow. Then I thought about pairs of LEDs, but that's just getting > too silly. Since the '?' hints that you are not in the USA , a Red-white-blue front panel is out of the question.:) You could color code the display - green or yellow for each octal digit. > I think I'll stick with the existing LEDs and maybe "save up my pocket > money" to buy 40 or so bulbs (28 plus a dozen spares). That is the best idea, since you still will have working front panel to help with checking that pdp-8 is up and running. > Pete Peter Turnbull From jhellige at earthlink.net Sun Nov 25 11:45:44 2001 From: jhellige at earthlink.net (Jeff Hellige) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:11:32 2005 Subject: Lisa Success.....finally... In-Reply-To: <000d01c17578$08ef2460$589bb2d1@Smith.earthlink.net> References: <200111242356.fAONu9N72838@highgate.comm.sfu.ca> <1006652262.2254.0.camel@eleusis> <000d01c17578$08ef2460$589bb2d1@Smith.earthlink.net> Message-ID: >Any ideas, or do I have a board level problem. (I do have that nasty >battery corrosion condition.) Thankfully I took the battery pack out of mine before it messed up the board. If you're having mouse problems though and you know it's making good contact on the connector and that the mouse is good, I'd carefully check the traces on the mainboard coming in from the mouse port. The mouseport is close enough to the batteries that the acid could've eaten away enough at one or more of the traces so that the mouse wouldn't function correctly. I replaced the SCSI hard disk on the SCSI card in the Lisa with an Apple-ROM Quantum 80MB drive and transferred the stuff from the external System 6 drive onto the new internal drive. It works great now, booting System 6 from the Quantum internal. Unfortunately, I only got one of the two partitions transferred over from the external disk before it crapped out, so I only got a few of the apps moved over. Oh well...it was an ancient ST-225N that just sat for a number of years on my shelf. I was able to reinitialize it using FWB HDtoolbox on my Powerbook. Jeff -- Home of the TRS-80 Model 2000 FAQ File http://www.cchaven.com http://www.geocities.com/siliconvalley/lakes/6757 From jhellige at earthlink.net Sun Nov 25 11:47:04 2001 From: jhellige at earthlink.net (Jeff Hellige) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:11:32 2005 Subject: Lisa Success.....finally... In-Reply-To: <3C008BB5.8138BC3D@jetnet.ab.ca> References: <200111242356.fAONu9N72838@highgate.comm.sfu.ca> <1006652262.2254.0.camel@eleusis> <3C008BB5.8138BC3D@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: >Jeff Hellige wrote: >> It booted off of it just fine! Unfortunately I >> still haven't gotten the Lisa's internal SCSI drive to show up yet. >> Oddly as well, the Lisa keeps wanting to turn itself on ever few >> minutes unless I unplug it. > >It must be possessed! Keep a sharp ear out for strange moans from the >HD, and floppies that never erase! Since there's always power applied to the Lisa when it's plugged in, my first though would be something with the powerswitch. At least it's working now. Jeff -- Home of the TRS-80 Model 2000 FAQ File http://www.cchaven.com http://www.geocities.com/siliconvalley/lakes/6757 From beesley at mandrake.demon.co.uk Sun Nov 25 12:01:51 2001 From: beesley at mandrake.demon.co.uk (Phil Beesley) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:11:32 2005 Subject: Lisa Success.....finally... In-Reply-To: <200111251643.KAA04457@opal.tseinc.com> Message-ID: On Sunday, November 25, 2001, at 04:43 pm, classiccmp-digest wrote: > From: Jeff Hellige > Subject: Lisa Success.....finally... > > Well after working on it off and on for over two years I > finally got my Lisa to actually boot up tonight. I've been trying to > put it back to Lisa2 specs vice Mac XL and I had swapped a 400k > floppy back into it in place of the 800k upgrade that had been > peformed. Unfortunately the machine would never power on properly > without the XL screenkit installed. Finally tonight I said the heck > with it and reinstalled all the parts to the XL screenkit and powered > it on, attempting to boot from Macworks XL 3.0 and the Macworks > System Disk (Mac Finder 4.1). It worked! Both disks were 400k disks > and made from images gotten off of the web. I'm tempted to put the > SCSI card/drive back into it and see what I can do with it, though > it'd be nice to still figure out what's going on with the > original-style CPU card and video system and get it working as a Lisa > again. I'm looking forward to performing similar surgery on my Lisa 2/5 with screen mod kit installed. A couple of questions: 1. Did you disconnect the screen transformer that goes between the video board and yoke cable? An obvious question but thought I'd ask. 2. Did you just swap the cpu board with screen mod ROMs for a standard Lisa 2 board, or have you tried putting your Lisa 2 ROMs in the board that you know works? 3. I understand that you need to tweak some of the potentiometers on the video board and possibly the psu. The Sun Remarketing DIY guide to Lisa repair has a section on installing the screen mod kit, so removal should "simply" be the reverse of that procedure... My understanding is that the Lisa will boot with incorrect voltages but the display will be distorted. 4. What symptoms were displayed when you tried booting without the screen mod kit? Phil From cfandt at netsync.net Sun Nov 25 12:33:27 2001 From: cfandt at netsync.net (Christian Fandt) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:11:32 2005 Subject: RESCUE: DEC hardware for the taking Message-ID: <4.1.20011125103556.00b1e730@206.231.8.2> Greetings those who are interested in older DEC PDP-11 systems! I must clear out excess gear remaining after The Great Haul From Summer '98. I've separated pretty much what I will keep, a few others have in their possession some other items. What remains is listed below. It's been setting in our garage. I must clear it out ASAP as I need to move the items that I'm storing in a storage unit into its place. I can't justify anymore spending of the $$ on that storage unit when I can be using it to pay towards my bills. Plus, I need to have that mostly antique radio-related stuff home to work on and perhaps sell/swap. Additionally, and this is important for you to know, if I cannot find a home for what DEC gear remains I must regrettably SCRAP it. It cannot stay here. Here's the list. See notes below list. 1. PDP-11/24 with two RL02s in short rack, same footprint as an 11/750. Has RK-11 and UDA-50 boardsets. 2. PDP-11/34A -seems to be older model "A" with early Programmer's Panel. Early, I think, because it's made of boxy-shaped stamped sheetmetal and not the thermofoam cast bezels like we usually see. Same electronics though. In short rack. 2. RK07 in short rack. 4. RK07 in short rack. 5. RA81 in short rack. 6. TS03 Tape system in 6' rack with BA-11 controller chassis & boards. 7. RK07 in short rack. Said to possibly not work. 8. RA60-AA in short rack. 9. A couple of BA-11 chassis. 10. 2 units: Decwriter III (LA120) 11. 1-Decwriter II 12. Two or three RL02s, no rack. 13. RL01-A, no rack. 14. Bunches of tapes. Mostly TS-03 7" reels. Take them all. 15. Bunches of RL01 and RL02 disc paks. Several RK07 paks. Take one, then all will go with it. 16. 7' tall tape storage rack. 17. Maybe a couple of terminals, VT-100, ADM-3 18. Perhaps some other useful stuff that I uncover. End. Notes: * As is, where is. Naturally, for a rescue. I simply do not have any resources to ship this equipment. * I refer to a 'short rack' as the one which is about 4' tall and rolls around. Same styling as VAX 11/750 cabinet, etc. as some of you already may know. I just can't recall the 'H' -part number of these racks right now nor see the numbers without pulling big piles of stuff out of the way. ** No documentation available. I've kept all that pertains to the gear I'm keeping; swapped off other items (and lookin' for a few more bits). ** Unknown what the original 11/24 setup was although the RK-11 boardset inside belies one or more of the RK07 drives possibly being hung off it. In fact, only the 11/750, which has since found a new home, had any systemic configuration history that I could figure out from all the various PDP-11 and VAX gear rescued in the original '98 Great Haul -except of course for the small 11/53, 11/23 and MVII systems which are in my collection now. Came out of Bradford, PA -a very much rural city even by Jamestown's standards. ** Plan on taking the gear as soon as you can get one or more "Rescue Brigades" arranged. Find folks who will divide it up with you. ** It all has to be out of the garage as soon as possible. You really should bring a truck with a liftgate, truck with ramp and a strong assistant or two, "lowboy" trailer with ramp -or whatever it takes because I have no loading dock on my garage, of course. ** Price is cheeeep. Just take it all away. Unless, at your option, in trade you have some bits for my VAX 11/730 that will yield for me a nicely runable system (mass storage, boot tape, documentation, etc.) or some SCSI interface boards (QBUS & UNIBUS) or whatever else you think I can use (small stuff!). I'm in Western New York State. Jamestown is on Interstate 86 (old NY State Route 17 Expressway) about 45-50 miles east of Erie, PA. Interstate 90 is on the western terminus of I-86, near Erie. Figure around 80 miles to here from the Buffalo city center. Thanks for helping rescue this DEC equipment! Best regards, Chris -- -- NNNN Christian Fandt, Electronic/Electrical Historian Jamestown, NY USA cfandt@netsync.net Member of Antique Wireless Association URL: http://www.antiquewireless.org/ From gehrich at tampabay.rr.com Sun Nov 25 12:49:50 2001 From: gehrich at tampabay.rr.com (Gene Ehrich) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:11:32 2005 Subject: Adam Computer In-Reply-To: <1006706942.2333.0.camel@stolichnaya.meltie.mine.nu> Message-ID: <4.3.2.7.2.20011125134903.00a988e0@pop3.norton.antivirus> Does anybody have any idea of the value of a brand new in boxes Adam computer? From jhellige at earthlink.net Sun Nov 25 13:10:23 2001 From: jhellige at earthlink.net (Jeff Hellige) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:11:32 2005 Subject: Lisa Success.....finally... In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: >1. Did you disconnect the screen transformer that goes between the >video board and yoke cable? An obvious question but thought I'd ask. Yes, I removed the transformer the goes between the video board and yoke cable...the one taped to the side of the chasis next to the video board. >2. Did you just swap the cpu board with screen mod ROMs for a >standard Lisa 2 board, or have you tried putting your Lisa 2 ROMs in >the board that you know works? I have 3 cpu boards here, two with the XL ROMs and the third with Rev. H ROMs. I've swapped them and the video state ROM around between the various boards. Same results regardless of which board is used. >3. I understand that you need to tweak some of the potentiometers on >the video board and possibly the psu. The Sun Remarketing DIY guide >to Lisa repair has a section on installing the screen mod kit, so >removal should "simply" be the reverse of that procedure... My >understanding is that the Lisa will boot with incorrect voltages but >the display will be distorted. I adjusted the pots on the video board, but not on the PSU. It will even boot fine with the XL screenkit ROMs but without the additional transformer. The screen's aspect ratio is wrong and it doesn't fill the entire screen, but it works. I've got PDF's of Sun's stuff, as well as the two D. Craig CD's with lots of info. >4. What symptoms were displayed when you tried booting without the >screen mod kit? Blank screen with scan trace lines. I believe it also would give 3 beeps as well. Since my Profile HD is dead, it wouldn't have been much use as a Lisa anyway but it would've been nice to get it working in it's original configuration. There's also an internal hard disk supplied by Sun Rem. that is mounted above the floppy and which runs off of the external parallel port but the drive sounds and smells horrible when powered on. Needless to say, I think it's toast! That's ok...the 80MB drive I've not got mounted on the SCSI card should be more than enough space to play around with it as a Mac XL. It seems to actually be pretty usable in that configuration. Jeff -- Home of the TRS-80 Model 2000 FAQ File http://www.cchaven.com http://www.geocities.com/siliconvalley/lakes/6757 From mew_list at swbell.net Sun Nov 25 13:29:16 2001 From: mew_list at swbell.net (Mitch Wright) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:11:32 2005 Subject: SMC HDC9224 datasheet / pinout References: <4.1.20011125103556.00b1e730@206.231.8.2> Message-ID: <3C01468C.1DF9@swbell.net> Hi folks, Anyone know where there is a scanned or web version of the SMC HDC9224 data sheet and pinout? Thanks. From SUPRDAVE at aol.com Sun Nov 25 13:52:50 2001 From: SUPRDAVE at aol.com (SUPRDAVE@aol.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:11:32 2005 Subject: Adam Computer Message-ID: <159.4a5ec0e.2932a612@aol.com> In a message dated 11/25/2001 2:02:51 PM Eastern Standard Time, gehrich@tampabay.rr.com writes: > Does anybody have any idea of the value of a brand new in boxes Adam > computer? > like the old saying goes, it's worth whatever someone will pay for it. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20011125/b5072d3f/attachment-0001.html From meltlet at fastmail.fm Sun Nov 25 14:22:00 2001 From: meltlet at fastmail.fm (Alex White) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:11:32 2005 Subject: Ahh. Message-ID: <1006719723.2333.4.camel@stolichnaya.meltie.mine.nu> *settles back into the list* Hello again guys, i've missed you. I've also accumulated a couple of questions in my absence: Have any of you heard of an Applix DIY computer? Apparently it's m68k-based, but I know little more. I've found the manuals online quite easily, but i'd like to know any experiences with one - what OS and so on. Actually, if you have any information on 680x0 homebrews, let me know! Thanks Alex From victor9000us at yahoo.com Sun Nov 25 14:22:42 2001 From: victor9000us at yahoo.com (Brad Chase) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:11:32 2005 Subject: FS: Victor Technologies Computers, Software, Documentation Message-ID: <20011125202242.55847.qmail@web21109.mail.yahoo.com> Please respond directly to victor9000us@yahoo.com The Victor 9000 was an impressive early generation 808x based PC designed by Chuck Peddle. With a (for the time) high resolution green screen no glare monitor, large 1.2mb 5 1/4" floppies, and built-in sound capabilities, it was an excellent machine. Indeed, Victor scored many early sales wins with large companies such as Ford Motor Cars. I have a considerable stash of Victor Technologies equipment, software, and documentation that I must part with. Read on... Victor Technologies Vicki Portable System ----------------------------------------- Rare Victor 9000 compatible portable (well, luggable, though smaller and lighter than the original Compaqs) from the early 1980s. This system has dual 1.2 mb 5 1/4" floppy drives, 640KB of memory, keyboard, built-in small green screen (8" or so I think), and built-in serial and parallel ports. (Floppies are NOT PC/AT compatible, as Victors use a variable speed floppy system to achieve 1.2mb.) System is in full working order (I booted it yesterday to make sure), and comes with MS-DOS 2.11 and MS-DOS 3.1 for Vicki and diagnostics diskettes. Victor 9000 System with PlusPC IBM Compatibility Kit ---------------------------------------------------- When Victor realized that PCs and PC clones were going to become the standard, they created the PlusPC kit to retrofit Victor 9000s to become PC compatible. PlusPC systems can boot in either "V" mode, which is fully Victor compatible or "I" mode which is fully PC compatible (with the exception of not being able to format 360K diskettes). System can read and write both PC 360K diskettes and Victor 640K single side or 1.2mb double side diskettes. This Victor 9000 system has had the PlusPC kit installed. It is a dual double-sided floppy system (the PlusPC was installable only on double sided floppy machines) with 512K of RAM and built in serial and parallel ports. It comes with power cables, MS-DOS for PlusPC, MS-DOS for Victor 9000, monitor, keyboard, and manuals. The system works-- I booted it yesterday. Also included are a set of customer built, foam lined, hard sided carrying cases for the system. I also think I have the original controller board that will let you turn this back into a pure Victor 9000-- if I have it, I'll include it with the system. Victor 9000 Networking Equipment -------------------------------- I have a few (4 I think) Victor 9000 Network cards. I also have the network interface boxes, some cabling, software for DOS 1.25 and 2.11, documentation, and device driver software. The hardware was all taken from a working network a few years ago, and I believe it all works, but I won't promise. Just about guaranteed to be incompatible with any other network hardware. ;-) Other Victor 9000 Hardware -------------------------- 1 PlusPC Kit, not installed in a system, with manuals still in shrink wrap. 2 or 3 Victor 9000 memory boards from various manufacturers. May not work (I'm sure one doesn't), but also full of memory chips. 1 Victor clock card. May or may not work. Miniscribe III hard disk. May or may not work. Victor 9000 Software and Tool Kits ---------------------------------- MS-DOS 1.25 for Victor 9000 MS-DOS 2.11 for Victor 9000 MS-DOS 3.1 for Victor 9000 CP/M-86 for Victor 9000 Victor Hard Disk Tool Kit Victor Hard Disk Tool Kit II Victor Graphics Tool Kit Victor Graphics Tool Kit II Victor Programmers Tool Kit Victor Audio Tool Kit with audio amplifier card (Allows voice recording. The victors have a built in voice playback capability.) Victor CP/M-80 system with Z-80 card. Yep, you really can run Z-80 programs on a Victor. Assorted Victor diagnostic disks Word Perfect 4.x (DOS version) for Victor 9000 with manuals Complete VictorPULSE public domain software library- over 70 disks of software, information, and documentation for Victor 9000s. Write Crane RAM disk for Victor 9000 White Crane Brooklyn bridge (PC transfer software) for Victor 9000 Fancy Font (scalable fonts from dot matrix printers) for Victor 9000 Victor Documentation -------------------- Victor Hardware Reference Manual Victor Supplementary Hardware Reference Manual (This is also available in electronic form as one of the disks in the public domain software set.) Victor Field Service Bulletins Valid Technologies Memory Board manual & diagnostics Pretty complete set of Channel 9000 (Victor User Group) newsletters Odds and Ends ------------- US Robotics Courier 2400 (external) modem. (Yes, there is communication software in all that software above-- it's in with the public domain stuff. No, it won't do TCP/IP.) US Robotics Sportster 9600 (external) modem Citizen 120D dot-matrix printer Panasonic KXP1092 dot-matrix printer Large supply of blank 5 1/4" disks. TERMS AND CONDITIONS -------------------- Make an offer. I would prefer to send it all out as one huge load or several large ones, but will consider other proposals. All items are available as is, without warranty. I've powered up the systems to make sure they work. Most other stuff should (and did the last time I used it) work unless I've made a note to the contrary. It would be a real pain to try and install and test it all again now, so I'm not. Shipping from southern New Hampshire is *your* responsibility, though I could probably be persuaded to deliver within a reasonable driving distance (an hour or less). :-) There's a lot here.... if someone wants the works (my first choice), it's probably enough for a small pallet load. You got questions? Just ask. Please respond directly to victor9000us@yahoo.com-- not to the mailing list. __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! GeoCities - quick and easy web site hosting, just $8.95/month. http://geocities.yahoo.com/ps/info1 From edick at idcomm.com Sun Nov 25 14:52:12 2001 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:11:32 2005 Subject: SMC HDC9224 datasheet / pinout References: <4.1.20011125103556.00b1e730@206.231.8.2> <3C01468C.1DF9@swbell.net> Message-ID: <001e01c175f3$0efc4100$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> I've got the datasheet, although you couldn't pick a worse time for me to scan something. Dick ----- Original Message ----- From: "Mitch Wright" To: Sent: Sunday, November 25, 2001 12:29 PM Subject: SMC HDC9224 datasheet / pinout > Hi folks, > > Anyone know where there is a scanned or web version of the SMC HDC9224 > data sheet and pinout? > > Thanks. > > From r.stek at snet.net Sun Nov 25 16:01:46 2001 From: r.stek at snet.net (Bob Stek) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:11:32 2005 Subject: Northstar Horizons Possibly Available Message-ID: <000901c175fc$ccc5fba0$0201a8c0@bob> Kevin - I, too, have sufficient Horizons (besides if the shipping didn't kill me, my wife would). But if you are of a mind to restore them, I can offer xerox copies of most docs for about a nickel a page, or you can borrow them and make your own copies. Of course I have boot disks for N* DOS as well as CP/M, and California Digital still sells hard-sectored floppies (WWW.CADIGITAL.COM). I'd bet that if you couldn't find a list member to give them a home, you could sell them on eBay for $100-$200 each in working condition. Good luck with them. They are still one of my favorite S-100 boxes. Bob Stek Saver of Lost Sols From frustum at pacbell.net Sun Nov 25 16:31:03 2001 From: frustum at pacbell.net (Jim Battle) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:11:32 2005 Subject: old 8080 micro system available Message-ID: <4.3.2.7.0.20011125142606.00bb2ab0@postoffice.pacbell.net> I'm forwarding this information from a fellow who sent me an email asking if I was interested in his computer. I'm not, but I told him I'd forward his contact information. Please reply to him for requests about more information. Based on his area code, it looks like he is in or near Houston, TX. Thanks. --- start of 1st email --- Date: Fri, 23 Nov 2001 17:18:02 -0600 From: Sewell Martin Subject: Old computer To: frustum@pacbell.net Message-id: <004d01c17475$19e4b860$1381b4ce@halpc.org> MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2919.6600 Content-type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_004A_01C17442.CE701500" X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2919.6600 X-Priority: 3 Please advise me as to whether you may be interested in a very early model (circa 1976) 0f an Intel 8080 based microcomputer system with dual 8" Shugart diskette drives with 2 digit serial numbers, and a Centronic model 700 RO printer serial 086? The original maker was an engineer from Warner Swayze Corp., Cleveland Ohio, Abe Zeewe. The operation system was ISIS, the programming language was a pseudo-fortran. I programmed a prescription processing application for a retail pharmacy. If you need additional information, please let me know. Sewell Martin e-mail: sewell@hal-pc.org Phone: 713-728-5526 ---- end of 1st email ---- ---- start of 2nd email ---- Date: Sat, 24 Nov 2001 14:18:35 -0600 From: Sewell Martin Subject: Re: Old computer To: Jim Battle Message-id: <000a01c17525$330219e0$c581b4ce@halpc.org> MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2919.6600 Content-type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2919.6600 References: <4.3.2.7.0.20011124011346.00bb1540@postoffice.pacbell.net> X-Priority: 3 I would very much like for you to pass my info around. I don't know if it still works. This machine was a prototype developed for Realistic Control Corp. of Cleveland. I developed the software. The translator and the operating system are still on the machine. The last time it ran was around 1980. There are many items inside that are hand wired. To permit additional air flow, the engineer cut an "X" in the front of the case, which was covered by 4 layers of gauze bandage acting as the filter. I am asking for an amount commensurate with the historical value plus shipping. I am also including the Centronic model 700 RO printer (serial # 086) and an Ann Arbor terminal. I may also have wiring schematics available. Side note: I remember personally running jumpers from various pins on the processor to make the machine work. ---- end of 2nd email ---- ----- Jim Battle == frustum@pacbell.net From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun Nov 25 13:17:22 2001 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:11:32 2005 Subject: Lisa Success.....finally... In-Reply-To: <1006652262.2254.0.camel@eleusis> from "Jeffrey H. Ingber" at Nov 24, 1 08:37:38 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 2110 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20011125/8a4f4f2e/attachment-0001.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun Nov 25 13:29:02 2001 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:11:32 2005 Subject: PDP-8/E questions In-Reply-To: from "Zane H. Healy" at Nov 24, 1 08:05:36 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 380 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20011125/b54a6d4b/attachment-0001.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun Nov 25 13:37:31 2001 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:11:32 2005 Subject: Lisa Success.....finally... In-Reply-To: <000d01c17578$08ef2460$589bb2d1@Smith.earthlink.net> from "Wayne M. Smith" at Nov 24, 1 10:11:33 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 2357 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20011125/f27eebaf/attachment-0001.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun Nov 25 13:39:09 2001 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:11:32 2005 Subject: PDP-8/E questions In-Reply-To: <10111251047.ZM26477@mindy.dunnington.u-net.com> from "Pete Turnbull" at Nov 25, 1 10:47:07 am Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 831 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20011125/44bc6d27/attachment-0001.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun Nov 25 13:41:02 2001 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:11:32 2005 Subject: PDP-8/E questions In-Reply-To: <10111251211.ZM26525@mindy.dunnington.u-net.com> from "Pete Turnbull" at Nov 25, 1 12:11:21 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 700 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20011125/150e624f/attachment-0001.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun Nov 25 13:44:22 2001 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:11:32 2005 Subject: PDP-8/E questions In-Reply-To: <3C011C26.BFFB055F@jetnet.ab.ca> from "Ben Franchuk" at Nov 25, 1 09:28:22 am Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 896 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20011125/65b39186/attachment-0001.ksh From jhellige at earthlink.net Sun Nov 25 17:10:49 2001 From: jhellige at earthlink.net (Jeff Hellige) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:11:32 2005 Subject: TRS-80 Model 16's looking for good home In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Found this on Usenet and thought some of you might find it interesting. Please reply to the original author. Jeff -------------- From: Bill Gunshannon Newsgroups: comp.sys.tandy Subject: Model-16's looking for a home Date: Sat, 24 Nov 2001 10:55:10 -0500 Organization: University of Scranton Lines: 29 Message-ID: <20011124104845.D5674-100000@server2.cs.scranton.edu> NNTP-Posting-Host: server2.cs.uofs.edu Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII X-Trace: info.cs.uofs.edu 1006617132 33652 134.198.169.3 (24 Nov 2001 15:52:12 GMT) X-Complaints-To: news@cs.uofs.edu NNTP-Posting-Date: 24 Nov 2001 15:52:12 GMT X-X-Sender: I have a pair of model-16's one running the other mostly dismantled (although it may actually be complete, I don't remember) for spare parts that need to find a new home. I also have quite a pile of software for them which may still be readable if bit-rot hasn't taken all those 8" floppies: CPM UCSD Pascal (both 68K and Z80) Xenix TRSDOS (various versions) What do I want for it?? I wouldn't mind if someone had a hard disk interface for a COCO (I have an OS9 project I would like to demo for a professor here) but if no one can come up with one I will still give these boxes away. I'm located in NEPA in the Wilkes-Barre/Scranton area. And I doubt that I could come up with boxes suitable to ship all this stuff so it probably needs to be someone willing to drive by and pick it up. All the best. bill -- Bill Gunshannon | de-moc-ra-cy (di mok' ra see) n. Three wolves bill@cs.scranton.edu | and a sheep voting on what's for dinner. University of Scranton | Scranton, Pennsylvania | #include -- Home of the TRS-80 Model 2000 FAQ File http://www.cchaven.com http://www.geocities.com/siliconvalley/lakes/6757 From dmabry at mich.com Sun Nov 25 17:16:26 2001 From: dmabry at mich.com (Dave Mabry) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:11:32 2005 Subject: Dead Intel MDS controller board References: Message-ID: <3C017BCA.FCFB3393@mich.com> Tony and whoever might be interested in this problem... Fortunately I was able to borrow a scope and I have scoped the signal DATA SR STB. It starts up the first time the diskette is accessed and stays on from then on as long as power is applied to the system. It is a square wave with a period of 1900ns (1.9us). It is +5v for 1100ns and 0v for 800ns. The trimpot (the only one on the board) will vary this slightly. Also, that signal does not change that I can see on the scope when the drive head is loaded and a read initiated. Before I started the scoping, I put a small program into ram that would start a read operation and let me see the error bits returned. It was a 0Ah, which means, if I am interpreting it correctly, Address error and CRC error. Let me know what you think I should check next, if you still have time to assist. Thanks, Dave Tony Duell wrote: > > > > > I have that manual (98-422A) and that is the correct one for the > > SBC-202. I think Intel just gave the 202 name to that board set when it > > OK, then we're both looking at the same manual. > > > was bought for integration into an application. > > > > I am anxious to try to troubleshoot this, but I'm not sure how to go > > about it. So far all I have tried to boot the MDS. It does select the > > correct drive and load the head. After a pause of about one second the > > We know the microcode, etc, is working correctly as that's on the other > board. And this would seem to imply that the disk controller is talking > to the Multibus (at least well enough to receive commands) and that the > drive control logic on the interface board is working correctly. > > > Interrupt 2 light (on the cpu board, so it is coming from the multibus) > > lights solid and the boot code in the MDS system rom returns a > > Interrupts are generated by the channel board, really. The interrupt > line driver is on the interface board (A55/b, '125), so that's working > correctly. Yes, the standard INT/ line is number 2. > > > nondescriptive error message "disk error". When it works correctly (two > > weeks ago) the interrupt 2 light would pulse (very lightly illuminate) > > during read. Now it comes on solid. I believe that Int2 is the signal > > from the controller boards signifying end of operation. > > Well, an interrupt from the controller, anyway. > > > I just read through the manual tonight, but I still need help with a > > direction for shooting it. I was thinking that I should code a simple > > routine (in hex since that is all I can think of to load memory in this > > machine) to try to read somewhere on the disk and see what error code is > > returned. I would guess it will be CRC error. > > I am not so sure. Particularly not if the PLL isn't locking. It might > never find an address mark or something like that. > > Read section 2.4 carefully. In particular the last section about the > extra error codes (several bits set together). And see what you get. > > If you have a 'scope or logic analyser (and I think you're going to need > one), the first signal I'd look at would be the SR STB signals (5/B1 to > use Intel's notation for finding them on the schematics). From what I > understand, this should be a clock waveform at twice the data rate, from > the crystal oscillator when not actually reading from the disk and locked > to the incoming data stream when reading. Make sure it doesn't disappear > or go off-frequency when trying to read a disk. > > > Note to list: Should we take this private or do you all want to see it? > > I'm happy for it to remain on-list. It's certainly on-topic, and > doubtless somebody else will find it interesting/useful. > > -tony -- Dave Mabry dmabry@mich.com Dossin Museum Underwater Research Team NACD #2093 From mhstein at usa.net Sun Nov 25 17:54:48 2001 From: mhstein at usa.net (M H Stein) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:11:32 2005 Subject: Datapoint 1100, 2200 and 5500 processors Message-ID: <01C175E3.7C0653E0@mse-d03> -----------------Original Message------------------- Date: Sun, 25 Nov 2001 10:26:11 +0100 From: "SP" Subject: Datapoint 1100, 2200 and 5500 processors Hello. I recently received one book named "A guide for operating Datapoint Equipment". It is 88 pages long and describes very good all the processors and peripherals that could be attached to one of these systems. In another place in the Internet mentions that the cassette operating system of these machines was the CTOS (yes, the processor appeared to have a couple of cassette units and load the OS from one of it). Do somebody has software for this machine ? Is it possible to get something for one repository or download place ? Do it exists some documentation scanned or available ? ++++++ Hello, Sergio: There were some Datapoint software manuals in the stuff I just sent to Norm (norm@docnorm.com); ask him what he plans to do with them. mike OS/2 is either the operating system that will take us into the 21st century or (it) will take Microsoft into Chapter 11. -Mark Minasi, 1988 From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun Nov 25 18:26:43 2001 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:11:32 2005 Subject: Dead Intel MDS controller board In-Reply-To: <3C017BCA.FCFB3393@mich.com> from "Dave Mabry" at Nov 25, 1 06:16:26 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1696 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20011126/eaac39c7/attachment-0001.ksh From pete at dunnington.u-net.com Sun Nov 25 18:49:54 2001 From: pete at dunnington.u-net.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:11:32 2005 Subject: PDP-8/E questions In-Reply-To: ard@p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) "Re: PDP-8/E questions" (Nov 25, 19:41) References: Message-ID: <10111260049.ZM26956@mindy.dunnington.u-net.com> On Nov 25, 19:41, Tony Duell wrote: > The DEC LED module looks like a bi-pin bulb, and has a plastic base > moulding hiding the resistor, etc. It sounds like you have something > home-made, perhaps. It was done by someone who was obviously patient, and very neat. They look identical. I wonder if it was a DEC field mod? Unlikely, I suppose, as Field Service would have had the modules. > > The resistors look like modern miniature metal film, but could = > > be > > 20 years old. > > They are not exactly critical :-) No, they're not :-) I was just trying to guess the age. -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager University of York From pete at dunnington.u-net.com Sun Nov 25 18:52:07 2001 From: pete at dunnington.u-net.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:11:32 2005 Subject: PDP-8/E questions In-Reply-To: ard@p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) "Re: PDP-8/E questions" (Nov 25, 19:39) References: Message-ID: <10111260052.ZM26960@mindy.dunnington.u-net.com> On Nov 25, 19:39, Tony Duell wrote: > > Ah. That would probably explain why I have a cable with two white wires on > > pins 1 and 3, and a red wire on pin 2, connected to a 6-pin single-row > > Mate-N-Lok (like the ones used on power regulators). > > 8 pin Mate-n-lock, surely. Oops, you're right. Of course they're 8-pin. -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager University of York From curt at atari-history.com Sun Nov 25 19:20:14 2001 From: curt at atari-history.com (Curt Vendel) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:11:32 2005 Subject: Adam Computer References: <4.3.2.7.2.20011125134903.00a988e0@pop3.norton.antivirus> Message-ID: <000d01c17618$8296fb30$0a00a8c0@cvendel> Gene, There is a place on the web, Adam's House, I think its www.ecoleco.com and he sells units brand new there, so you can get an idea of what the current sale price is, his prices are a bit higher then some hobbyist based storefronts, but its all around the same area. Curt ----- Original Message ----- From: "Gene Ehrich" To: Sent: Sunday, November 25, 2001 1:49 PM Subject: Adam Computer > Does anybody have any idea of the value of a brand new in boxes Adam computer? > From schiska at mindspring.com Sun Nov 25 20:02:37 2001 From: schiska at mindspring.com (SchiskaMeister) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:11:32 2005 Subject: Central Point option floppy controller Message-ID: <001b01c1761e$89e817b0$19bd343f@artihome> I just found a thread about this old card and was wondering if anyone knows where I can purchase one or of a forum where I might be able to make this sort of request. I apologize if this is out of context for this forum. Thank you. Ray... -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20011125/bf03f855/attachment-0001.html From schiska at mindspring.com Sun Nov 25 20:10:07 2001 From: schiska at mindspring.com (SchiskaMeister) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:11:32 2005 Subject: 360k versus 1.2Mb floppy drives... Message-ID: <000801c1761f$791186a0$19bd343f@artihome> Does anyone know if there is a way to tell which is which by looking at the drive?. FTM the 720k vs 1.44Mb 3 1/2" drives. Thanks in advance... R.. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20011125/5de36da2/attachment-0001.html From rcini at optonline.net Sun Nov 25 21:06:08 2001 From: rcini at optonline.net (Richard A. Cini, Jr.) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:11:32 2005 Subject: Inaccessible CP/M programs in Altair32 Message-ID: Hi: I'm making progress with using CP/M under Altair32, but I have one newbie question since I don't have much experience with CP/M. The disk image I have shows one program in the directory, STAT.COM. Running STAT tells me that there is about 167k free (on a 330k disk). Looking at the disk image file with a hex file editor reveals that there's more programs on the disk. I seem to remember something about password protection on a CP/M disk. How do I get around this so that I can see what else is on this image? Thanks. Rich Rich Cini Collector of classic computers Build Master for the Altair32 Emulation Project Web site: http://highgate.comm.sfu.ca/~rcini/classiccmp/ /************************************************************/ From foo at siconic.com Sun Nov 25 22:08:47 2001 From: foo at siconic.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:11:32 2005 Subject: 70's Mattel Handheld Football game... In-Reply-To: <200111240329.WAA27211@wordstock.com> Message-ID: On Fri, 23 Nov 2001, Bryan Pope wrote: > Now speaking of handhelds, does anyone remember playing the handheld > pinball game? I can't think of the name of it right now... Oh yeah. I remember that. But my recollection is as vague as yours because I can't remember any details. Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org From foo at siconic.com Sun Nov 25 22:24:58 2001 From: foo at siconic.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:11:32 2005 Subject: Datapoint 1100, 2200 and 5500 processors In-Reply-To: <00c201c17593$394a56a0$3f912a3e@margarita.spedraja.net> Message-ID: On Sun, 25 Nov 2001, SP wrote: > Hello. I recently received one book named "A guide for operating > Datapoint Equipment". It is 88 pages long and describes very good all > the processors and peripherals that could be attached to one of these > systems. In another place in the Internet mentions that the cassette > operating system of these machines was the CTOS (yes, the processor > appeared to have a couple of cassette units and load the OS from one > of it). Sounds cool. I wish I had a copy. > Do somebody has software for this machine ? Is it possible to get > something for one repository or download place ? Do it exists some > documentation scanned or available ? > > And finally... Somebody knows a place where one of these systems would > be working or at least operative ? I have several of these machines. In fact I have enough machines for a complete network. However, I don't know what operating condition mine are in. I got them over a year ago but haven't had time to play around with them. I know I have the 1500, 1520, 2200 and 1800 model processors. My recollection is fuzzy so those numbers may be off, and I'm probably missing one or two models. Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org From foo at siconic.com Sun Nov 25 22:28:30 2001 From: foo at siconic.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:11:32 2005 Subject: Adam Computer In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.2.20011125134903.00a988e0@pop3.norton.antivirus> Message-ID: On Sun, 25 Nov 2001, Gene Ehrich wrote: > Does anybody have any idea of the value of a brand new in boxes Adam > computer? >From "free" to $infinity. Depends on who's buying. Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org From mythtech at Mac.com Sun Nov 25 22:55:19 2001 From: mythtech at Mac.com (Chris) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:11:32 2005 Subject: 70's Mattel Handheld Football game... Message-ID: <200111260455.WAA11408@opal.tseinc.com> >> Now speaking of handhelds, does anyone remember playing the handheld >> pinball game? I can't think of the name of it right now... > >Oh yeah. I remember that. But my recollection is as vague as yours >because I can't remember any details. Wildfire? Black thing with pinball shape and display. I had that (probably still do in my parents basement... we all moved out and abondoned all our junk there... hehehe). I seem to recall mine doesn't work anymore... I think it shorted out when I used an atari 2600 power adaptor to give it DC power. Probably something I can fix these days, just hadn't given it much thought until now. -chris From frustum at pacbell.net Sun Nov 25 23:29:30 2001 From: frustum at pacbell.net (Jim Battle) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:11:32 2005 Subject: Inaccessible CP/M programs in Altair32 In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <4.3.2.7.0.20011125212646.00bb3b30@postoffice.pacbell.net> At 10:06 PM 11/25/01 -0500, you wrote: >Hi: > > I'm making progress with using CP/M under Altair32, but I have > one newbie >question since I don't have much experience with CP/M. > > The disk image I have shows one program in the directory, > STAT.COM. Running >STAT tells me that there is about 167k free (on a 330k disk). Looking at the >disk image file with a hex file editor reveals that there's more programs on >the disk. > > I seem to remember something about password protection on a CP/M > disk. How >do I get around this so that I can see what else is on this image? It isn't password protection. Files can be marked as "system" files, so that they don't show up when you do a "DIR". I think "STAT *.* $DIR" will revert all hidden files back to normal. ----- Jim Battle == frustum@pacbell.net From donm at cts.com Sun Nov 25 23:51:26 2001 From: donm at cts.com (Don Maslin) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:11:32 2005 Subject: 360k versus 1.2Mb floppy drives... In-Reply-To: <000801c1761f$791186a0$19bd343f@artihome> Message-ID: On Sun, 25 Nov 2001, SchiskaMeister wrote: > Does anyone know if there is a way to tell which is which by looking > at the drive?. FTM the 720k vs 1.44Mb 3 1/2" drives. Thanks in > advance... > > R.. There are not usually obvious differences between a 360k abd a 1.2mb drive. The best method is to check make/model number on: http://theref.aquascape.com which has a fairly complete floppy drive listing. Alternatively, do a web search for THEREF43.ZIP and download it. It covers rather more than just floppies. WRT 720k and 1.44mb, my usual check is to prop open the door and look into the innards of the drive. On the `floor' on the left, there are normally two small vertical pins present. They are switch actuators for disk present and for writeprotect. If there is a similar pin on the `floor' on the right it is a 1.44mb drive. - don From george at racsys.rt.rain.com Mon Nov 26 00:18:09 2001 From: george at racsys.rt.rain.com (George Leo Rachor Jr.) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:11:32 2005 Subject: Inaccessible CP/M programs in Altair32 In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.0.20011125212646.00bb3b30@postoffice.pacbell.net> Message-ID: I'm not an expert in Altair CP/M but I do remember one other aspect. It wasn't password protection but I do remember the concept of differnt user #'s. It wasn't complicated but somthing like user #'s 1-8. Once you were that user I seem to remember only the files belonging to that user showing up... Might be a dead end... Just a thought... George Rachor ========================================================= George L. Rachor Jr. george@rachors.com Hillsboro, Oregon http://rachors.com United States of America Amateur Radio : KD7DCX On Sun, 25 Nov 2001, Jim Battle wrote: > At 10:06 PM 11/25/01 -0500, you wrote: > >Hi: > > > > I'm making progress with using CP/M under Altair32, but I have > > one newbie > >question since I don't have much experience with CP/M. > > > > The disk image I have shows one program in the directory, > > STAT.COM. Running > >STAT tells me that there is about 167k free (on a 330k disk). Looking at the > >disk image file with a hex file editor reveals that there's more programs on > >the disk. > > > > I seem to remember something about password protection on a CP/M > > disk. How > >do I get around this so that I can see what else is on this image? > > It isn't password protection. Files can be marked as "system" files, so > that they don't show up when you do a "DIR". I think "STAT *.* $DIR" will > revert all hidden files back to normal. > > ----- > Jim Battle == frustum@pacbell.net > > From frustum at pacbell.net Mon Nov 26 00:51:40 2001 From: frustum at pacbell.net (Jim Battle) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:11:32 2005 Subject: Inaccessible CP/M programs in Altair32 In-Reply-To: References: <4.3.2.7.0.20011125212646.00bb3b30@postoffice.pacbell.net> Message-ID: <4.3.2.7.0.20011125224715.00bbee00@postoffice.pacbell.net> Good point -- to flesh it out a bit more, there could be up to 16 different "user" areas on the disk, which go from 0 to 15. Files were tagged with a nibble indicating which user area the file belonged to. To change user areas, type: USER 1 to change to user area 1. By default you are in user 0. Changing to each user area and typing "dir" to see if anything is there is a drag. To find out which, if any, user areas have active files, type: STAT USR: and it responds with something like: Active User: 0 Active Files: 0 1 to indicate you are currently in user 0 area and that user areas 0 and 1 have files in them. (confirmed on *my* CP/M emulator!) At 10:18 PM 11/25/01 -0800, you wrote: >I'm not an expert in Altair CP/M but I do remember one other aspect. It >wasn't password protection but I do remember the concept of differnt user >#'s. It wasn't complicated but somthing like user #'s 1-8. Once you >were that user I seem to remember only the files belonging to that user >showing up... > >Might be a dead end... Just a thought... > >George Rachor > >========================================================= >George L. Rachor Jr. george@rachors.com >Hillsboro, Oregon http://rachors.com >United States of America Amateur Radio : KD7DCX > >On Sun, 25 Nov 2001, Jim Battle wrote: > > > At 10:06 PM 11/25/01 -0500, you wrote: > > >Hi: > > > > > > I'm making progress with using CP/M under Altair32, but I have > > > one newbie > > >question since I don't have much experience with CP/M. > > > > > > The disk image I have shows one program in the directory, > > > STAT.COM. Running > > >STAT tells me that there is about 167k free (on a 330k disk). Looking > at the > > >disk image file with a hex file editor reveals that there's more > programs on > > >the disk. > > > > > > I seem to remember something about password protection on a CP/M > > > disk. How > > >do I get around this so that I can see what else is on this image? > > > > It isn't password protection. Files can be marked as "system" files, so > > that they don't show up when you do a "DIR". I think "STAT *.* $DIR" will > > revert all hidden files back to normal. > > > > ----- > > Jim Battle == frustum@pacbell.net > > > > ----- Jim Battle == frustum@pacbell.net From vcf at vintage.org Mon Nov 26 01:09:45 2001 From: vcf at vintage.org (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:11:32 2005 Subject: Want to be the subject of Christine Finn's next book? Message-ID: Christine Finn, author of _Artifacts: An Archaeologist's Year in Silicon Valley_ (available for sale on Amazon, more information at http://www.artifactsthebook.com/) is starting on a new book that will cover how people use technology in the United States. She would like to profile/interview a collector in every state of the union, including Alaska and Hawaii. Christine says: "I am about to start on a follow up to 'Artifacts: an archaeologists's year in Silicon Valley'. It will also be published by MIT Press, and take a broader look at technology in America. Central to research will be travelling to as many parts of the US as I can - Hawaii and Alaska included - over the next year. However, I do have very limited resources and would be really grateful if any collectors or classic computer enthusiasts could offer me an overnight stay and/or a place for me to get online. More than that, it would give me the chance to meet more of you, and find out about how you feel about technology in its various forms. I can offer a copy of the book and an Artifacts reading/discussion in your locale, if you'd like to arrange it. "If you can help, do please get in touch with me christine.finn@arch.ox.ac.uk". If you would like to be considered, please respond directly to Christine at . Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org * Old computing resources for business and academia at www.VintageTech.com * From bqt at update.uu.se Mon Nov 26 01:27:04 2001 From: bqt at update.uu.se (Johnny Billquist) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:11:32 2005 Subject: Is HSC90 a PDP-11 or what? In-Reply-To: <3C005C12.8020108@aurora.regenstrief.org> Message-ID: On Sat, 24 Nov 2001, Gunther Schadow wrote: > Who knows what processor/architecture an HSC90 is? Is it a PDP-11? > What's it's bus? Sounds like it doesn't mix with UNIBUS or Q-BUS > cards at least not looking at the card numbers "Lxxxx" (HSC) vs. > "Mxxxx" (UNIBUS/Q-BUS). It's a PDP-11. It's not Q-bus, nor Unibus. > The reason I'm asking is that I'm looking for the most multi- > use of my big-iron hardware that takes up so much space. I believe > I will be able to run the console computer of my future 11/78x > as a PDP-11. Would be nice if this is possible with the HSC90 > as well. I would like to: > > - provide a PDP-11/RSX-11 environment for my neighbor to play > with without getting a dedicated PDP-11. Probably I can do that > in the future with the LSI-11 of the VAX 11/78x that hopefully > some day will decorate my garage. Huh? Are you saying that you plan on running the front-end as a regular PDP-11? It's quite a non-standard configuration as far as PDP-11s go. > - try running 2.9 BSD on a PDP-11. Not knowing much about > 2.x BSD, I could imagine making the HSC90 into a UNIX-based > file server or something. 2.11 will not boot on an HSC. It's quite a special environment, and the only mass-storage that the PDP-11 have itself is the RX50 floppies. Johnny Johnny Billquist || "I'm on a bus || on a psychedelic trip email: bqt@update.uu.se || Reading murder books pdp is alive! || tryin' to stay hip" - B. Idol From sipke at wxs.nl Mon Nov 26 01:33:02 2001 From: sipke at wxs.nl (Sipke de Wal) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:11:33 2005 Subject: Inaccessible CP/M programs in Altair32 References: <4.3.2.7.0.20011125212646.00bb3b30@postoffice.pacbell.net> <4.3.2.7.0.20011125224715.00bbee00@postoffice.pacbell.net> Message-ID: <001301c1764c$95dc0120$030101ac@boll.casema.net> ZCPR2 & 3 (CP/M extensions) even allowed for 32 USER levels (0 .. 31) Sipke de Wal ------------------------------------------------- http://xgistor.ath.cx ------------------------------------------------- ----- Original Message ----- From: Jim Battle To: Sent: Monday, November 26, 2001 7:51 AM Subject: Re: Inaccessible CP/M programs in Altair32 > Good point -- > > to flesh it out a bit more, there could be up to 16 different "user" areas > on the disk, which go from 0 to 15. Files were tagged with a nibble > indicating which user area the file belonged to. > > To change user areas, type: > > USER 1 > > to change to user area 1. By default you are in user 0. Changing to each > user area and typing "dir" to see if anything is there is a drag. To find > out which, if any, user areas have active files, type: > > STAT USR: > > and it responds with something like: > > Active User: 0 > Active Files: 0 1 > > to indicate you are currently in user 0 area and that user areas 0 and 1 > have files in them. > (confirmed on *my* CP/M emulator!) > > > At 10:18 PM 11/25/01 -0800, you wrote: > >I'm not an expert in Altair CP/M but I do remember one other aspect. It > >wasn't password protection but I do remember the concept of differnt user > >#'s. It wasn't complicated but somthing like user #'s 1-8. Once you > >were that user I seem to remember only the files belonging to that user > >showing up... > > > >Might be a dead end... Just a thought... > > > >George Rachor > > > >========================================================= > >George L. Rachor Jr. george@rachors.com > >Hillsboro, Oregon http://rachors.com > >United States of America Amateur Radio : KD7DCX > > > >On Sun, 25 Nov 2001, Jim Battle wrote: > > > > > At 10:06 PM 11/25/01 -0500, you wrote: > > > >Hi: > > > > > > > > I'm making progress with using CP/M under Altair32, but I have > > > > one newbie > > > >question since I don't have much experience with CP/M. > > > > > > > > The disk image I have shows one program in the directory, > > > > STAT.COM. Running > > > >STAT tells me that there is about 167k free (on a 330k disk). Looking > > at the > > > >disk image file with a hex file editor reveals that there's more > > programs on > > > >the disk. > > > > > > > > I seem to remember something about password protection on a CP/M > > > > disk. How > > > >do I get around this so that I can see what else is on this image? > > > > > > It isn't password protection. Files can be marked as "system" files, so > > > that they don't show up when you do a "DIR". I think "STAT *.* $DIR" will > > > revert all hidden files back to normal. > > > > > > ----- > > > Jim Battle == frustum@pacbell.net > > > > > > > > ----- > Jim Battle == frustum@pacbell.net > From frustum at pacbell.net Mon Nov 26 02:15:50 2001 From: frustum at pacbell.net (Jim Battle) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:11:33 2005 Subject: Inaccessible CP/M programs in Altair32 In-Reply-To: <001301c1764c$95dc0120$030101ac@boll.casema.net> References: <4.3.2.7.0.20011125212646.00bb3b30@postoffice.pacbell.net> <4.3.2.7.0.20011125224715.00bbee00@postoffice.pacbell.net> Message-ID: <4.3.2.7.0.20011126001342.00bacd70@postoffice.pacbell.net> True, but Rich's emulator is of an Altair -- one with an 8080 in it. ZCPR2 & 3 were Z80-only affairs, I believe. I recently picked up Richard Conn's ZCPR book for $10, but I haven't yet had time to do more than page through it quickly. It looks like it was an interesting system; the author was obviously influenced by unix. At 08:33 AM 11/26/01 +0100, Sipke de Wal wrote: >ZCPR2 & 3 (CP/M extensions) even allowed >for 32 USER levels (0 .. 31) > >Sipke de Wal >------------------------------------------------- >http://xgistor.ath.cx >------------------------------------------------- > >----- Original Message ----- >From: Jim Battle >To: >Sent: Monday, November 26, 2001 7:51 AM >Subject: Re: Inaccessible CP/M programs in Altair32 > > > > Good point -- > > > > to flesh it out a bit more, there could be up to 16 different "user" areas > > on the disk, which go from 0 to 15. Files were tagged with a nibble > > indicating which user area the file belonged to. > > > > To change user areas, type: > > > > USER 1 > > > > to change to user area 1. By default you are in user 0. Changing to each > > user area and typing "dir" to see if anything is there is a drag. To find > > out which, if any, user areas have active files, type: > > > > STAT USR: > > > > and it responds with something like: > > > > Active User: 0 > > Active Files: 0 1 > > > > to indicate you are currently in user 0 area and that user areas 0 and 1 > > have files in them. > > (confirmed on *my* CP/M emulator!) > > > > > > At 10:18 PM 11/25/01 -0800, you wrote: > > >I'm not an expert in Altair CP/M but I do remember one other aspect. It > > >wasn't password protection but I do remember the concept of differnt user > > >#'s. It wasn't complicated but somthing like user #'s 1-8. Once you > > >were that user I seem to remember only the files belonging to that user > > >showing up... > > > > > >Might be a dead end... Just a thought... > > > > > >George Rachor > > > > > >========================================================= > > >George L. Rachor Jr. george@rachors.com > > >Hillsboro, Oregon http://rachors.com > > >United States of America Amateur Radio : KD7DCX > > > > > >On Sun, 25 Nov 2001, Jim Battle wrote: > > > > > > > At 10:06 PM 11/25/01 -0500, you wrote: > > > > >Hi: > > > > > > > > > > I'm making progress with using CP/M under Altair32, but I > have > > > > > one newbie > > > > >question since I don't have much experience with CP/M. > > > > > > > > > > The disk image I have shows one program in the directory, > > > > > STAT.COM. Running > > > > >STAT tells me that there is about 167k free (on a 330k disk). Looking > > > at the > > > > >disk image file with a hex file editor reveals that there's more > > > programs on > > > > >the disk. > > > > > > > > > > I seem to remember something about password protection on > a CP/M > > > > > disk. How > > > > >do I get around this so that I can see what else is on this image? > > > > > > > > It isn't password protection. Files can be marked as "system" > files, so > > > > that they don't show up when you do a "DIR". I think "STAT *.* > $DIR" will > > > > revert all hidden files back to normal. > > > > > > > > ----- > > > > Jim Battle == frustum@pacbell.net > > > > > > > > > > > > ----- > > Jim Battle == frustum@pacbell.net > > ----- Jim Battle == frustum@pacbell.net From Innfogra at aol.com Mon Nov 26 03:12:13 2001 From: Innfogra at aol.com (Innfogra@aol.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:11:33 2005 Subject: Qbus & Unibus cards avalable, DRV-11 & RX01 & RX02 disk controllers & more Message-ID: <48.24b4173.2933616d@aol.com> Hi; I have posted the rest of the cards, that listmembers did not speak for under my eBay user name Innfosale. Most are cheap, starting at $4.00 Here is a URL: http://cgi6.ebay.com/aw-cgi/eBayISAPI.dll?MfcISAPICommand=ViewListedItems& userid=Innfosale&include=0&since=-1&sort=3&rows=50 I will ship internationally. The Global Priority envelope is $10 and will hold a dual width card. Air Mail is a little cheaper for several cards. Paxton Astoria, OR From Antonio.Carlini at riverstonenet.com Mon Nov 26 04:32:31 2001 From: Antonio.Carlini at riverstonenet.com (Carlini, Antonio) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:11:33 2005 Subject: SMC HDC9224 datasheet / pinout Message-ID: <3820E2042B6ED5118DC200D0B78EDC4706624E@exc-reo1> > Anyone know where there is a scanned or web version of the SMC HDC9224 > data sheet and pinout? Try a search on http://www.freetradezone.com for something containing hdc9224 and you'll find the datasheet (four times). The App Notes both look useful too. Note - freetradezone is about to stop being free, so don't hang about! Antonio arcarlini@iee.org From cpg at aladdin.de Mon Nov 26 04:58:21 2001 From: cpg at aladdin.de (cpg@aladdin.de) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:11:33 2005 Subject: where are the ml archives for Oct/Nov? Message-ID: Hi, I'm looking on the web page, but the archives end in September. I deleted some messages of today/yesterday by mistake.... regards, chris ************************************************************************************************** The contents of this email and any attachments are confidential. It is intended for the named recipient(s) only. If you have received this email in error please notify the system manager or the sender immediately and do not disclose the contents to any one or make copies. ** eSafe AKS_MUC scanned this email for viruses, vandals and malicious content ** ************************************************************************************************** From geoffr at zipcon.net Mon Nov 26 05:50:03 2001 From: geoffr at zipcon.net (Geoff Reed) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:11:33 2005 Subject: Inaccessible CP/M programs in Altair32 In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20011126034920.03569e30@mail.zipcon.net> are the other files on different "user" levels? (i forget the term) like if the drive is C, you have C0 C1 C2 C3 C4 C5 C6 C7 and C8 IIRC At 10:06 PM 11/25/01 -0500, you wrote: >Hi: > > I'm making progress with using CP/M under Altair32, but I have > one newbie >question since I don't have much experience with CP/M. > > The disk image I have shows one program in the directory, > STAT.COM. Running >STAT tells me that there is about 167k free (on a 330k disk). Looking at the >disk image file with a hex file editor reveals that there's more programs on >the disk. > > I seem to remember something about password protection on a CP/M > disk. How >do I get around this so that I can see what else is on this image? > > Thanks. > >Rich > >Rich Cini >Collector of classic computers >Build Master for the Altair32 Emulation Project >Web site: http://highgate.comm.sfu.ca/~rcini/classiccmp/ >/************************************************************/ From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Mon Nov 26 07:34:27 2001 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (Allison) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:11:33 2005 Subject: Inaccessible CP/M programs in Altair32 Message-ID: <000e01c1767f$13343fc0$6b7b7b7b@ajp> Zcpr (V1) could be run on 8080 (compiled for) with reduced features. The advantage of this was an enhanced CCP,. There were several other enhanced CCP replacements Xccp being one that could also run on 8080. It was the code efficientcy of the z80 over 8080 that essentially killed the 8080 as many apps could use the Z80 instructions to compact code, sometimes significantly. ZCPR relied on this as did The BDOS replacements (P2dos, Suprbdos, NOVAdos, Z80dos). Allison -----Original Message----- From: Jim Battle To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org Date: Monday, November 26, 2001 3:48 AM Subject: Re: Inaccessible CP/M programs in Altair32 True, but Rich's emulator is of an Altair -- one with an 8080 in it. ZCPR2 & 3 were Z80-only affairs, I believe. I recently picked up Richard Conn's ZCPR book for $10, but I haven't yet had time to do more than page through it quickly. It looks like it was an interesting system; the author was obviously influenced by unix. At 08:33 AM 11/26/01 +0100, Sipke de Wal wrote: >ZCPR2 & 3 (CP/M extensions) even allowed >for 32 USER levels (0 .. 31) > >Sipke de Wal >------------------------------------------------- >http://xgistor.ath.cx >------------------------------------------------- > >----- Original Message ----- >From: Jim Battle >To: >Sent: Monday, November 26, 2001 7:51 AM >Subject: Re: Inaccessible CP/M programs in Altair32 > > > > Good point -- > > > > to flesh it out a bit more, there could be up to 16 different "user" areas > > on the disk, which go from 0 to 15. Files were tagged with a nibble > > indicating which user area the file belonged to. > > > > To change user areas, type: > > > > USER 1 > > > > to change to user area 1. By default you are in user 0. Changing to each > > user area and typing "dir" to see if anything is there is a drag. To find > > out which, if any, user areas have active files, type: > > > > STAT USR: > > > > and it responds with something like: > > > > Active User: 0 > > Active Files: 0 1 > > > > to indicate you are currently in user 0 area and that user areas 0 and 1 > > have files in them. > > (confirmed on *my* CP/M emulator!) > > > > > > At 10:18 PM 11/25/01 -0800, you wrote: > > >I'm not an expert in Altair CP/M but I do remember one other aspect. It > > >wasn't password protection but I do remember the concept of differnt user > > >#'s. It wasn't complicated but somthing like user #'s 1-8. Once you > > >were that user I seem to remember only the files belonging to that user > > >showing up... > > > > > >Might be a dead end... Just a thought... > > > > > >George Rachor > > > > > >========================================================= > > >George L. Rachor Jr. george@rachors.com > > >Hillsboro, Oregon http://rachors.com > > >United States of America Amateur Radio : KD7DCX > > > > > >On Sun, 25 Nov 2001, Jim Battle wrote: > > > > > > > At 10:06 PM 11/25/01 -0500, you wrote: > > > > >Hi: > > > > > > > > > > I'm making progress with using CP/M under Altair32, but I > have > > > > > one newbie > > > > >question since I don't have much experience with CP/M. > > > > > > > > > > The disk image I have shows one program in the directory, > > > > > STAT.COM. Running > > > > >STAT tells me that there is about 167k free (on a 330k disk). Looking > > > at the > > > > >disk image file with a hex file editor reveals that there's more > > > programs on > > > > >the disk. > > > > > > > > > > I seem to remember something about password protection on > a CP/M > > > > > disk. How > > > > >do I get around this so that I can see what else is on this image? > > > > > > > > It isn't password protection. Files can be marked as "system" > files, so > > > > that they don't show up when you do a "DIR". I think "STAT *.* > $DIR" will > > > > revert all hidden files back to normal. > > > > > > > > ----- > > > > Jim Battle == frustum@pacbell.net > > > > > > > > > > > > ----- > > Jim Battle == frustum@pacbell.net > > ----- Jim Battle == frustum@pacbell.net From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Mon Nov 26 07:46:27 2001 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (Allison) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:11:33 2005 Subject: Inaccessible CP/M programs in Altair32 Message-ID: <000001c17681$6cd5e360$6b7b7b7b@ajp> Correct save for CP/M only used 0-15 for the V2.x and ZCPR extended this to 0-31. The areas were not protected directly from each other but were logically seperate. It made file management easier on a logical volutme without a heirarchial (non flat) directory structure. FYI: the byte used to carry user is the 0th of the 32 bytes in a directory entry. Values (byte) 0E5h, 0FFh, 0FEh are reserved for erased(e5), deleted(Fx). To add to this the high order bits of the file name 8.3 are reserved for control/ Those bits control RO, system(invisible) and other status items. All file names were 7bit ascii. ZCPR and other utility programs extended and used those bits for things like archive status abd public files(accessable from any user #). Allison -----Original Message----- From: George Leo Rachor Jr. To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org Date: Monday, November 26, 2001 1:45 AM Subject: Re: Inaccessible CP/M programs in Altair32 >I'm not an expert in Altair CP/M but I do remember one other aspect. It >wasn't password protection but I do remember the concept of differnt user >#'s. It wasn't complicated but somthing like user #'s 1-8. Once you >were that user I seem to remember only the files belonging to that user >showing up... > >Might be a dead end... Just a thought... > >George Rachor > >========================================================= >George L. Rachor Jr. george@rachors.com >Hillsboro, Oregon http://rachors.com >United States of America Amateur Radio : KD7DCX > >On Sun, 25 Nov 2001, Jim Battle wrote: > >> At 10:06 PM 11/25/01 -0500, you wrote: >> >Hi: >> > >> > I'm making progress with using CP/M under Altair32, but I have >> > one newbie >> >question since I don't have much experience with CP/M. >> > >> > The disk image I have shows one program in the directory, >> > STAT.COM. Running >> >STAT tells me that there is about 167k free (on a 330k disk). Looking at the >> >disk image file with a hex file editor reveals that there's more programs on >> >the disk. >> > >> > I seem to remember something about password protection on a CP/M >> > disk. How >> >do I get around this so that I can see what else is on this image? >> >> It isn't password protection. Files can be marked as "system" files, so >> that they don't show up when you do a "DIR". I think "STAT *.* $DIR" will >> revert all hidden files back to normal. >> >> ----- >> Jim Battle == frustum@pacbell.net >> >> > > From jfoust at threedee.com Mon Nov 26 07:57:01 2001 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:11:33 2005 Subject: Inaccessible CP/M programs in Altair32 In-Reply-To: <000e01c1767f$13343fc0$6b7b7b7b@ajp> Message-ID: <5.0.0.25.0.20011126075609.01f1e008@pc> When CP/M deleted a file, did it just put a zero at the start of the filename (like DOS), or did it erase the entire field? Perhaps Rich saw deleted files... - John From bpope at wordstock.com Mon Nov 26 09:02:32 2001 From: bpope at wordstock.com (Bryan Pope) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:11:33 2005 Subject: 70's Mattel Handheld Football game... In-Reply-To: <200111260455.WAA11408@opal.tseinc.com> from "Chris" at Nov 25, 01 11:55:19 pm Message-ID: <200111261502.KAA05934@wordstock.com> > > >> Now speaking of handhelds, does anyone remember playing the handheld > >> pinball game? I can't think of the name of it right now... > > > >Oh yeah. I remember that. But my recollection is as vague as yours > >because I can't remember any details. > > Wildfire? Black thing with pinball shape and display. I had that > (probably still do in my parents basement... we all moved out and > abondoned all our junk there... hehehe). I seem to recall mine doesn't > work anymore... I think it shorted out when I used an atari 2600 power > adaptor to give it DC power. Probably something I can fix these days, > just hadn't given it much thought until now. > That is the name. And mine is in the same place... Along with my TRON handheld. :) Bryan From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Mon Nov 26 09:11:11 2001 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (Allison) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:11:33 2005 Subject: Inaccessible CP/M programs in Altair32 Message-ID: <000a01c1768c$9aa3a740$6b7b7b7b@ajp> CP/M marks a file delete by changing the first byte of the directory record with E5h to replace a value of 00 to less than 040h. It also does so for every file extent for that file in the directory. A completely empty directory by default contained the E5h mark as formatters back tehn used that as the data fill on a freshly formatted disk. Allison -----Original Message----- From: John Foust To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org Date: Monday, November 26, 2001 9:30 AM Subject: Re: Inaccessible CP/M programs in Altair32 > >When CP/M deleted a file, did it just put a zero >at the start of the filename (like DOS), or did it erase the >entire field? Perhaps Rich saw deleted files... > >- John > > From edick at idcomm.com Mon Nov 26 09:21:00 2001 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:11:33 2005 Subject: Inaccessible CP/M programs in Altair32 References: <5.0.0.25.0.20011126075609.01f1e008@pc> Message-ID: <003a01c1768d$f4929d00$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> IIRC, it put a 0xE5 in the first byte of the directory entry, which, historically, was the IBM "deleted data" designator. Dick ----- Original Message ----- From: "John Foust" To: Sent: Monday, November 26, 2001 6:57 AM Subject: Re: Inaccessible CP/M programs in Altair32 > > When CP/M deleted a file, did it just put a zero > at the start of the filename (like DOS), or did it erase the > entire field? Perhaps Rich saw deleted files... > > - John > > From csmith at amdocs.com Mon Nov 26 10:30:50 2001 From: csmith at amdocs.com (Christopher Smith) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:11:33 2005 Subject: Lisa/UnixPC(Was: Say it ain't so, Joe!) Message-ID: <3B55D7F383B0D31197D9009027541CBF1170DEC3@cmiexch1.cmi.itds.com> > -----Original Message----- > From: Mike [mailto:dogas@bellsouth.net] > finally being shuffled here. It was an adventure over miles > with a car on > the verge of catrastrophe, filled to the brim. Anyway, > here's my recent > 'new finds' list... [snip] > Apple Lisa w/widget&software & Macintosh Portable Wonderful computers. I've been working on restoring one, myself. Need a new cable for the internal HD (Or at least a new connector to plug into the HD port) Mine is a conglomeration of Mac XL (the newer model that wasn't compatible with Lisa OS) and Lisa parts. I believe the Lisa IO board is toasted, so that came from the XL (Which was functional but physically trashed) Incidentally, please let me know if you find a way to make a bootable backup of Lisa OS or Macworks. :) (Not that I'll be backing Macworks up until I fix the internal drive cable) [snip] > AT&T UnixPC and hd drive and software These are great. I picked up one of these from a university I used to attend. It was about to get trashed, and somebody I knew at the time picked it up along with the seven or so others that were going out of style. Software and everything. I managed to get the SVR3.0 development kit working with the R3.5 OS that I've got. It's pretty functional at this point. Since then, I've located a brand new one at a local computer store (really), and acquired that for my SO. We've even still got the original box. :) She has since gotten some original manuals. I also have a friend who picked one up a the scrap yard for near nothing. ...had a sign taped to it that says "will not play games, good for programmers." I think they were serious. [chop] Regards, Chris Christopher Smith, Perl Developer Amdocs - Champaign, IL /usr/bin/perl -e ' print((~"\x95\xc4\xe3"^"Just Another Perl Hacker.")."\x08!\n"); ' From csmith at amdocs.com Mon Nov 26 11:25:03 2001 From: csmith at amdocs.com (Christopher Smith) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:11:33 2005 Subject: Lisa Success.....finally... Message-ID: <3B55D7F383B0D31197D9009027541CBF1170DEC4@cmiexch1.cmi.itds.com> > -----Original Message----- > From: Jeffrey H. Ingber [mailto:jhingber@ix.netcom.com] > clicks (the mouse is good, and tested with an older Mac). The mouse I > have has a more 'square' mouse button as opposed to the long, thin > 'rectanguar' mouse button sometimes seen with these machines: [snip] > mouse I have. There are no 'receptacles' to catch the thumbscrews on > the mouse, and there ins't the ususal metal 'band' around the D-Sub > connector on the motherboard. It's either not supposed to be > there, or > it acts as a ground and is missing. I suspect this why the mouse > doesn't register button clicks but I'm not sure. > > I'll relace the connector with a new one, but only if I'm sure this is > the problem. The mouse is compatible. I have one plugged into my Lisa, but here's the deal with the serial port: It seems that the Lisa mouse setup was a little strange. The port was covered by a plastic "hood," which attached to the back of the case by snapping into two little holes. One hole on each side of the port. This covers the metal "ring" that you're looking for. (I assume the Mac mouse is also looking for it ;) If you've got the mouse plugged in, chances are good you'll yank the hood off when you try to unplug the mouse. Otherwise, you will snap the plastic catches on this hood when/if you try to remove it, AFAIK. You should be able to take a flat screwdriver, and put it in-between the plastic hood and the case, and pry out on the plastic. It should pop right out. This will also make it much easier to plug/unplug the mouse. :) Regards, Chris Christopher Smith, Perl Developer Amdocs - Champaign, IL /usr/bin/perl -e ' print((~"\x95\xc4\xe3"^"Just Another Perl Hacker.")."\x08!\n"); ' From csmith at amdocs.com Mon Nov 26 11:28:12 2001 From: csmith at amdocs.com (Christopher Smith) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:11:33 2005 Subject: Lisa Success.....finally... Message-ID: <3B55D7F383B0D31197D9009027541CBF1170DEC5@cmiexch1.cmi.itds.com> > -----Original Message----- > From: Jeff Hellige [mailto:jhellige@earthlink.net] > Does yours have an external parallel connector or an internal > hard disk or possibly both? I'm pretty sure all Mac XL's lack the > external parallel connector, unless there's an expansion card fitted > for use with the Profile drive, and that it would be like a Lisa 2/10 That's not completely true -- at least for the Mac XL that I've seen. The plug for the internal hard disk was ran via ribbon-cable out of the case, and connected into the external port. Regards, Chris Christopher Smith, Perl Developer Amdocs - Champaign, IL /usr/bin/perl -e ' print((~"\x95\xc4\xe3"^"Just Another Perl Hacker.")."\x08!\n"); ' From csmith at amdocs.com Mon Nov 26 11:40:05 2001 From: csmith at amdocs.com (Christopher Smith) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:11:33 2005 Subject: Adam Computer Message-ID: <3B55D7F383B0D31197D9009027541CBF1170DEC6@cmiexch1.cmi.itds.com> -----Original Message----- From: SUPRDAVE@aol.com [mailto:SUPRDAVE@aol.com] > In a message dated 11/25/2001 2:02:51 PM Eastern Standard Time, gehrich@tampabay.rr.com writes: >> Does anybody have any idea of the value of a brand new in boxes Adam computer? > like the old saying goes, it's worth whatever someone will pay for it. How many cassette drives do they have? Personally, I'd be willing to pay something like $20 us for one, plus shipping. You may or may not be able to get more elsewhere. Contact me by mail if you're selling. ;) I have a CPU box, and a keyboard. It would be worth that money to me so that I could get an original power supply and cables. Regards, Chris Christopher Smith, Perl Developer Amdocs - Champaign, IL /usr/bin/perl -e ' print((~"\x95\xc4\xe3"^"Just Another Perl Hacker.")."\x08!\n"); ' From egendorf at mit.edu Mon Nov 26 12:06:48 2001 From: egendorf at mit.edu (Andrew Egendorf) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:11:33 2005 Subject: Remington Rand 409 Message-ID: I am helping to gather original documents and/or artifacts concerning the Remington Rand 409-series computers for the Remington Rand museum being set up in Rowayton, CT. The models of interest are the 409-2 and the 409-2R. These are tube, punch-card, and programming panel machines from the 1950s. We are interested in documenting the location of all surviving artifacts, but also would like to acquire particularly interesting items by donation or purchase. We are looking specifically for anything related to the programming of these machines, such as the programming panels, programming manuals, or the programming jumper wires. Photographs or drawings of programming panels (originals or reproduced in third-party publications), with or without programs wired on them, also would be of interest. If you have any of the above, or have more general items such as Remington Rand brand computer tubes or punch cards, whether or not you wish to sell or donate them, please e-mail me at: egendorf@mit.edu. Thanks. From dogas at bellsouth.net Mon Nov 26 12:22:35 2001 From: dogas at bellsouth.net (Mike) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:11:33 2005 Subject: Lisa/UnixPC(Was: Say it ain't so, Joe!) References: <3B55D7F383B0D31197D9009027541CBF1170DEC3@cmiexch1.cmi.itds.com> Message-ID: <001901c176a7$5325b280$93881442@DOMAIN> Hyya Chris, > > -----Original Message----- > > From: Mike [mailto:dogas@bellsouth.net] > > > finally being shuffled here. It was an adventure over miles > > with a car on > > the verge of catrastrophe, filled to the brim. Anyway, > > here's my recent > > 'new finds' list... > > [snip] > > > Apple Lisa w/widget&software & Macintosh Portable > > Wonderful computers. I've been working on restoring one, myself. Need a > new cable for the internal HD (Or at least a new connector to plug into the > HD port) > > Mine is a conglomeration of Mac XL (the newer model that wasn't compatible > with Lisa OS) and Lisa parts. I believe the Lisa IO board is toasted, so > that came from the XL (Which was functional but physically trashed) > I bought my first two Lisa 2 computers from Sun Remarketing a few years ago, just the basic machines, but they both booted off a MacXL floppy also supplied from Sun when I bought them. But I really wanted one with a HD and some programming software (MacApp or Smalltalk) for it and eventually even them both on a network doing something PARCish... I picked up Joe's Lisa in a bunch of parts. He had dissassembled it down to the floppy bay and power on/off switch but I did also get the internal tower with the widget and floppy that I hope to migrate to one of my machines so I may need that parallel cable I already gave Dave Greelesh the keyboard and mouse for his Lisa. I did get alot of software for it that I haven't tried yet and maybe an extra i/o board, lemme check... > Incidentally, please let me know if you find a way to make a bootable backup > of Lisa OS or Macworks. :) (Not that I'll be backing Macworks up until I fix > the internal drive cable) > > [snip] > > > AT&T UnixPC and hd drive and software > > These are great. I picked up one of these from a university I used to > attend. It was about to get trashed, and somebody I knew at the time picked > it up along with the seven or so others that were going out of style. > Software and everything. I managed to get the SVR3.0 development kit > working with the R3.5 OS that I've got. It's pretty functional at this > point. They are cool!. I've been playing around with it and having alota fun. Its got the developer package installed (among others) and some funky phone demon running but is a real nice environment with C and Curses. Enough to make me happy. > Since then, I've located a brand new one at a local computer store (really), > and acquired that for my SO. We've even still got the original box. :) > That's great! I akso found two 3b2's (a 400 and a 1000-80m) and a AT&T terminal a while back too but haven't tried them yet. > She has since gotten some original manuals. > > I also have a friend who picked one up a the scrap yard for near nothing. > ...had a sign taped to it that says "will not play games, good for > programmers." > > I think they were serious. > barbarians! ;) > [chop] > > Regards, > > Chris > > > Christopher Smith, Perl Developer > Amdocs - Champaign, IL > > /usr/bin/perl -e ' > print((~"\x95\xc4\xe3"^"Just Another Perl Hacker.")."\x08!\n"); > ' > > Cheers - Mike From cmcmanis at mcmanis.com Mon Nov 26 13:03:41 2001 From: cmcmanis at mcmanis.com (Chuck McManis) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:11:33 2005 Subject: one shoe down ... Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20011126110154.00a751b0@mcmanis.com> Well the "new" Encompass site is updated and guess what, no "free DECUS" memberships anymore, now its $79.99 "early bird special" and $99.99 regular membership. No doubt when they become HP it will be even more irrelevant to the cause of preserving old DEC gear. I sure hope they offer lifetime VAX licenses at some point. --Chuck From vance at ikickass.org Mon Nov 26 13:18:05 2001 From: vance at ikickass.org (One Without Reason) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:11:33 2005 Subject: Remington Rand 409 In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Mon, 26 Nov 2001, Andrew Egendorf wrote: > I am helping to gather original documents and/or artifacts concerning the > Remington Rand 409-series computers for the Remington Rand museum being set > up in Rowayton, CT. The models of interest are the 409-2 and the 409-2R. > These are tube, punch-card, and programming panel machines from the 1950s. Wow! Cool! Let me know when this museum is set up, or even if you would like my help. It sounds like a place I would most definitely like to see! Peace... Sridhar From csmith at amdocs.com Mon Nov 26 13:34:15 2001 From: csmith at amdocs.com (Christopher Smith) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:11:33 2005 Subject: Lisa/UnixPC(Was: Say it ain't so, Joe!) Message-ID: <3B55D7F383B0D31197D9009027541CBF1170DECC@cmiexch1.cmi.itds.com> > -----Original Message----- > From: Mike [mailto:dogas@bellsouth.net] > and floppy that I hope to migrate to one of my machines so I > may need that > parallel cable I already gave Dave Greelesh the keyboard and > mouse for his > Lisa. I did get alot of software for it that I haven't tried > yet and maybe > an extra i/o board, lemme check... That would be great if you've got it. The rest of the Mac XL is still setting around. (Honestly, though, I wish it were a Lisa rather than an XL. :) As for the parallel cable, I don't know how the internal drive cable was wired up (:/) but I know that you can plug a straight-through parallel cable (like the macintosh "scsi" cable) into the back, and connect a profile hard disk that way. > > Software and everything. I managed to get the SVR3.0 > development kit > > working with the R3.5 OS that I've got. It's pretty > functional at this > > point. > They are cool!. I've been playing around with it and having > alota fun. > Its got the developer package installed (among others) and > some funky phone > demon running but is a real nice environment with C and > Curses. Enough to > make me happy. The funky phone daemon is pretty cool. I used to leave the UnixPC on and connected to the telephone just so I could use it to put people on hold ;) > That's great! I akso found two 3b2's (a 400 and a 1000-80m) > and a AT&T > terminal a while back too but haven't tried them yet. I have a 3b2, myself, but it doesn't power on yet. Just sort of sets there. No idea what's wrong. > > ...had a sign taped to it that says "will not play games, good for > > programmers." > > I think they were serious. > barbarians! ;) He still has the sign on it, I think... Regards, Chris Christopher Smith, Perl Developer Amdocs - Champaign, IL /usr/bin/perl -e ' print((~"\x95\xc4\xe3"^"Just Another Perl Hacker.")."\x08!\n"); ' From erd_6502 at yahoo.com Mon Nov 26 13:45:22 2001 From: erd_6502 at yahoo.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:11:33 2005 Subject: one shoe down ... In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20011126110154.00a751b0@mcmanis.com> Message-ID: <20011126194522.75364.qmail@web20102.mail.yahoo.com> --- Chuck McManis wrote: > Well the "new" Encompass site is updated and guess what, no "free DECUS" > memberships anymore, now its $79.99 "early bird special" and $99.99 > regular > membership. No doubt when they become HP it will be even more irrelevant > to > the cause of preserving old DEC gear. I sure hope they offer lifetime VAX > licenses at some point. For those of us DECUS members who have not yet gotten any hobbyist VAX licenses, is it too late? I have one of the recent hobby CDs and a bunch of 6.x originals, so media isn't a real problem, but licenses are. What about a project to hack LMF? There was a lot of controversy a while back about the "Screw LMF" T-Shirt at a Symposium with, IIRC, a 5.2 and 5.3 patch (details of exact versions fuzzy). Did DEC decide to lock stuff down after 5.x or is it still possible to simply bypass checks in LMF.EXE to always grant a license? It just sucks to have something as cool as non-commercial licenses granted for free change to require a paid-memebership to an organization to get them for free. In any case, I don't expect to _pay_ to join Encompass. I would think that losing a substantial quantity of members would cause them to re-think their policies (including folding, since it _does_ cost to run an organization, but normally, those costs are considered absorbable because of the greater benefit to the bottom-line that such an organization represents). -ethan __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! GeoCities - quick and easy web site hosting, just $8.95/month. http://geocities.yahoo.com/ps/info1 From rhudson at cnonline.net Mon Nov 26 14:00:37 2001 From: rhudson at cnonline.net (Ron Hudson) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:11:33 2005 Subject: PDP11 Processor handbook Message-ID: <3C029F65.9080406@cnonline.net> I just picked up a PDP11 processor handbook. Listed on the front also the pdp11/04/24/34a/44/70. There is a picture of two of the shorter white system cabinets, one i guess is one of the front loading tape driver the other case has two "RL02" unit separated by "somthing" perhaps a cpu with no front panel lights. The book is copyrighted 1981. Has this book been scaned? is it already available on the internet? If not, I will make it available to someone who will scan it and return it to me.. From jhellige at earthlink.net Mon Nov 26 14:03:07 2001 From: jhellige at earthlink.net (Jeff Hellige) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:11:33 2005 Subject: Lisa Success.....finally... In-Reply-To: <3B55D7F383B0D31197D9009027541CBF1170DEC5@cmiexch1.cmi.itds.com> References: <3B55D7F383B0D31197D9009027541CBF1170DEC5@cmiexch1.cmi.itds.com> Message-ID: > > Does yours have an external parallel connector or an internal >> hard disk or possibly both? I'm pretty sure all Mac XL's lack the >> external parallel connector, unless there's an expansion card fitted >> for use with the Profile drive, and that it would be like a Lisa 2/10 > >That's not completely true -- at least for the Mac XL that I've seen. The >plug for the internal hard disk was ran via ribbon-cable out of the case, >and connected into the external port. If the Mac XL in question has the external parallel port, Lisalite board, and old style I/O board, then it's not a Mac XL but an upgraded Lisa 2 or Lisa 2/5. The factory Macintosh XL's were all based on the Lisa 2/10 with the internal parallel port connector, for use with the Widget hard disk, and the updated I/O board which no longer required the use of the Lisalite board. Unfortunatley, I've never been able to find a document which indicated what model #'s corresponded to which machines. Jeff -- Home of the TRS-80 Model 2000 FAQ File http://www.cchaven.com http://www.geocities.com/siliconvalley/lakes/6757 From pechter at ureach.com Mon Nov 26 14:06:45 2001 From: pechter at ureach.com (Bill Pechter) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:11:33 2005 Subject: one shoe down ... Message-ID: <200111262006.PAA16295@stage20.ureach.com> When I can't get the license files anymore, I guess my VAX goes from OpenVMS to NetBSD. Bill -- Bill Pechter Systems Administrator uReach Technologies 732-335-5432 (Work) 877-661-2126 (Fax) ---- On Mon, 26 Nov 2001, Chuck McManis (cmcmanis@mcmanis.com) wrote: > Well the "new" Encompass site is updated and guess what, no "free DECUS" > > memberships anymore, now its $79.99 "early bird special" and $99.99 > regular > membership. No doubt when they become HP it will be even more irrelevant > to > the cause of preserving old DEC gear. I sure hope they offer lifetime > VAX > licenses at some point. > > --Chuck > > > > From rhudson at cnonline.net Mon Nov 26 14:09:05 2001 From: rhudson at cnonline.net (Ron Hudson) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:11:33 2005 Subject: PDP11 Processor handbook Message-ID: <3C02A161.5060101@cnonline.net> I just picked up a PDP11 processor handbook. Listed on the front also the pdp11/04/24/34a/44/70. There is a picture of two of the shorter white system cabinets, one i guess is one of the front loading tape driver the other case has two "RL02" unit separated by "somthing" perhaps a cpu with no front panel lights. The book is copyrighted 1981. Has this book been scaned? is it already available on the internet? If not, I will make it available to someone who will scan it and return it to me.. From cmcmanis at mcmanis.com Mon Nov 26 14:21:03 2001 From: cmcmanis at mcmanis.com (Chuck McManis) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:11:33 2005 Subject: one shoe down ... In-Reply-To: <20011126194522.75364.qmail@web20102.mail.yahoo.com> References: <5.1.0.14.0.20011126110154.00a751b0@mcmanis.com> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20011126121648.00aafec0@mcmanis.com> At 11:45 AM 11/26/01, Ethan Dicks wrote: >For those of us DECUS members who have not yet gotten any hobbyist VAX >licenses, is it too late? I have one of the recent hobby CDs and a bunch >of 6.x originals, so media isn't a real problem, but licenses are. Its still possible to get licenses if you have a DECUS *number.* The original DECUS membership "ids" were a mix of letters (basically parts of both your last and first name) and they were later changed to Encompass membership numbers. If you have the number then the Montagar page will accept it, if you have the old LETTER id then that page will not recognize it. >What about a project to hack LMF? There was a lot of controversy a while >back about the "Screw LMF" T-Shirt at a Symposium with, IIRC, a 5.2 and >5.3 patch (details of exact versions fuzzy). Did DEC decide to lock stuff >down after 5.x or is it still possible to simply bypass checks in LMF.EXE >to always grant a license? Well it has been demonstrated on this list that one can "reverse engineer" the LMF algorithm and generate your own PAKs. Presumably that is an option, although it becomes significantly more onerous than being "legit" >It just sucks to have something as cool as non-commercial licenses granted >for free change to require a paid-memebership to an organization to get >them for free. Yes, and I'm afraid HP/Compaq is intent on laying off the "cool" people who agree with sentiment in preference for keeping the bean counters. Now a lot of DECUS folks are there only for the licenses so perhaps they could spin off just a license program. > In any case, I don't expect to _pay_ to join Encompass. I >would think that losing a substantial quantity of members would cause them >to re-think their policies (including folding, since it _does_ cost to >run an organization, but normally, those costs are considered absorbable >because of the greater benefit to the bottom-line that such an organization >represents). In times like these, one has to wonder if they would notice the loss. --Chuck From bdwheele at indiana.edu Mon Nov 26 14:38:11 2001 From: bdwheele at indiana.edu (Brian Wheeler) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:11:33 2005 Subject: one shoe down ... In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20011126110154.00a751b0@mcmanis.com> References: <5.1.0.14.0.20011126110154.00a751b0@mcmanis.com> Message-ID: <1006807091.31558.0.camel@wombat.educ.indiana.edu> On Mon, 2001-11-26 at 14:03, Chuck McManis wrote: > Well the "new" Encompass site is updated and guess what, no "free DECUS" > memberships anymore, now its $79.99 "early bird special" and $99.99 regular > membership. No doubt when they become HP it will be even more irrelevant to > the cause of preserving old DEC gear. I sure hope they offer lifetime VAX > licenses at some point. > > --Chuck Are you sure? Looking at the "i want to re-enlist form" at https://safe2.sba.com/encompass/MemberForm.cfm It only looks like money is required if you're going to become a sustaining member... Of course there is a monster note on the page before: "Join or Renew Today - BASIC and SUSTAINING membership will only be available until December 31, 2001!" Brian From CordaAJ at nswc.navy.mil Mon Nov 26 14:30:33 2001 From: CordaAJ at nswc.navy.mil (Corda Albert J DLVA) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:11:33 2005 Subject: one shoe down ... Message-ID: <7B4C28C84831D211BFA200805F9F34561A8F27@nswcdlvaex04.nswc.navy.mil> If I remember properly, the licences issued on behalf of the hobbyist VAX/VMS effort were good for 1 year only (from date of issue?) and needed to be re-issued every year (please correct me if I'm wrong... I am not very VMS literate :-) At the time I remember reading of this, someone indicated that it wouldn't be a problem, since all you needed to get a new licence was a current DECUS membership (which was free)... we were told not to worry.... Well, apparently we should now start worrying.... -al- -acorda@1bigred.com > -----Original Message----- > From: Ethan Dicks [mailto:erd_6502@yahoo.com] > Sent: Monday, November 26, 2001 2:45 PM > To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org > Subject: Re: one shoe down ... > > > > --- Chuck McManis wrote: > > Well the "new" Encompass site is updated and guess what, no > "free DECUS" > > memberships anymore, now its $79.99 "early bird special" and $99.99 > > regular > > membership. No doubt when they become HP it will be even > more irrelevant > > to > > the cause of preserving old DEC gear. I sure hope they > offer lifetime VAX > > licenses at some point. > > For those of us DECUS members who have not yet gotten any hobbyist VAX > licenses, is it too late? I have one of the recent hobby CDs > and a bunch > of 6.x originals, so media isn't a real problem, but licenses are. > > What about a project to hack LMF? There was a lot of > controversy a while > back about the "Screw LMF" T-Shirt at a Symposium with, IIRC, > a 5.2 and > 5.3 patch (details of exact versions fuzzy). Did DEC decide > to lock stuff > down after 5.x or is it still possible to simply bypass > checks in LMF.EXE > to always grant a license? > > It just sucks to have something as cool as non-commercial > licenses granted > for free change to require a paid-memebership to an > organization to get > them for free. In any case, I don't expect to _pay_ to join > Encompass. I > would think that losing a substantial quantity of members > would cause them > to re-think their policies (including folding, since it _does_ cost to > run an organization, but normally, those costs are considered > absorbable > because of the greater benefit to the bottom-line that such > an organization > represents). > > -ethan > > > > __________________________________________________ > Do You Yahoo!? > Yahoo! GeoCities - quick and easy web site hosting, just $8.95/month. > http://geocities.yahoo.com/ps/info1 > From erd_6502 at yahoo.com Mon Nov 26 14:42:07 2001 From: erd_6502 at yahoo.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:11:33 2005 Subject: Finally got a Hayes Chronograph! Message-ID: <20011126204207.83442.qmail@web20102.mail.yahoo.com> After much searching (and missing two that went for auction when I was on vacation), a Hayes Chronograph has finally fallen into my waiting hands. Turns out one of the people I was camping with when I was on vacation had one in the basement that he just gave me. He picked it up 7 years ago for $10 at a Hamfest. I had to resolder the AC jack and it now works great! I was contemplating writing a Perl module to front-end it (and hide the AT syntax for setting/reading it). I was curious if anyone had any suggestions about where it belongs on CPAN (since I was planning on giving the code away). I wasn't sure if it belonged in the "Time" branch or if there were a more appropriate branch for device "drivers" in Perl. I was contemplating an approach were you create a Chronograph "object" and have it set the time to either now or a given time and return the time in text or seconds-since-the-epoch format. A Perl module would also give me a place to document the command syntax for the future - currently the only thing I've seen is a single CP/M program in assembler and the scanned docs on a classiccmp member's site (Thanks muchly, Rich!). Cheers, -ethan __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! GeoCities - quick and easy web site hosting, just $8.95/month. http://geocities.yahoo.com/ps/info1 From csmith at amdocs.com Mon Nov 26 14:46:04 2001 From: csmith at amdocs.com (Christopher Smith) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:11:33 2005 Subject: Lisa Success.....finally... Message-ID: <3B55D7F383B0D31197D9009027541CBF1170DECF@cmiexch1.cmi.itds.com> I don't know about a Lisalite board, but it did have an "XLerator" CPU daughterboard, which, among other things, prevented it from booting Lisa OS, AFAIK. :) Regards, Chris Christopher Smith, Perl Developer Amdocs - Champaign, IL /usr/bin/perl -e ' print((~"\x95\xc4\xe3"^"Just Another Perl Hacker.")."\x08!\n"); ' > -----Original Message----- > From: Jeff Hellige [mailto:jhellige@earthlink.net] > If the Mac XL in question has the external parallel port, > Lisalite board, and old style I/O board, then it's not a Mac XL but > an upgraded Lisa 2 or Lisa 2/5. The factory Macintosh XL's were all > based on the Lisa 2/10 with the internal parallel port connector, for > use with the Widget hard disk, and the updated I/O board which no > longer required the use of the Lisalite board. From erd_6502 at yahoo.com Mon Nov 26 14:48:43 2001 From: erd_6502 at yahoo.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:11:33 2005 Subject: one shoe down ... In-Reply-To: <1006807091.31558.0.camel@wombat.educ.indiana.edu> Message-ID: <20011126204843.10301.qmail@web20106.mail.yahoo.com> --- Brian Wheeler wrote: > Are you sure? Looking at the "i want to re-enlist form" at > https://safe2.sba.com/encompass/MemberForm.cfm > > It only looks like money is required if you're going to become a > sustaining member... For now... > Of course there is a monster note on the page before: > "Join or Renew Today - BASIC and SUSTAINING membership will only be > available until December 31, 2001!" I just renewed, but if next November they try to shake down the Basic Members, they'll shake me right out of the tree. I haven't made my living off of DEC hardware/software in nearly 10 years. The only thing that kept me around was that I like to play with the toys. -ethan __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! GeoCities - quick and easy web site hosting, just $8.95/month. http://geocities.yahoo.com/ps/info1 From erd_6502 at yahoo.com Mon Nov 26 14:49:29 2001 From: erd_6502 at yahoo.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:11:33 2005 Subject: Adam Computer In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20011126204929.10754.qmail@web20106.mail.yahoo.com> --- Sellam Ismail wrote: > On Sun, 25 Nov 2001, Gene Ehrich wrote: > > > Does anybody have any idea of the value of a brand new in boxes Adam > > computer? > > From "free" to $infinity. Depends on who's buying. ?DIVIDE BY ZERO ERROR READY. -ethan __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! GeoCities - quick and easy web site hosting, just $8.95/month. http://geocities.yahoo.com/ps/info1 From marino13 at btinternet.com Mon Nov 26 15:20:23 2001 From: marino13 at btinternet.com (Shaun Stephenson) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:11:33 2005 Subject: *HELP* - How do I temporarily unsubscribe? Message-ID: <3C02B217.BDE6583F@btinternet.com> Hi all Quickie which I need a quick reply to - How do I tempoarily suspend recieving posts from the group? I'm on holiday for 2 weeks very soon (1.5 days!) and don't fancy a few thousand posts in my mail when I return. Cheers! Shaun From erd_6502 at yahoo.com Mon Nov 26 15:21:21 2001 From: erd_6502 at yahoo.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:11:33 2005 Subject: 1771 floppy controller questions In-Reply-To: <003a01c17147$28d5c700$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> Message-ID: <20011126212121.12835.qmail@web20109.mail.yahoo.com> --- Richard Erlacher wrote: > You can get one for cheap if you go down to the thrift store and buy an > old TRS-80. That will cost less than a new WD1771, I'd bet. I'll _trade_ you an old TRS-80 for a WD1771. I haven't seen non-Commodore/Apple/IBM-compatible computers* at the thrift stores in a long, long time. I suspect they don't bother setting them out and just trash them. -ethan * - Not even Atari or Coleco or any of the once-common home machines. __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! GeoCities - quick and easy web site hosting, just $8.95/month. http://geocities.yahoo.com/ps/info1 From foo at siconic.com Mon Nov 26 15:37:02 2001 From: foo at siconic.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:11:33 2005 Subject: Finally got a Hayes Chronograph! In-Reply-To: <20011126204207.83442.qmail@web20102.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: On Mon, 26 Nov 2001, Ethan Dicks wrote: > I was contemplating writing a Perl module to front-end it (and hide > the AT syntax for setting/reading it). I was curious if anyone had > any suggestions about where it belongs on CPAN (since I was planning > on giving the code away). I wasn't sure if it belonged in the "Time" > branch or if there were a more appropriate branch for device "drivers" > in Perl. I was contemplating an approach were you create a > Chronograph "object" and have it set the time to either now or a given > time and return the time in text or seconds-since-the-epoch format. > A Perl module would also give me a place to document the command > syntax for the future - currently the only thing I've seen is a single > CP/M program in assembler and the scanned docs on a classiccmp > member's site (Thanks muchly, Rich!). What Perl module are you using for serial port access? Or did you just do a low level open of the serial device? I'm using Device::Serial, which was modeled after the Win32 serial port routines and it sucks for the most part. If you rolled your own, I would mind seeing the code. Serial ports under Unix are a bitch. I wanted to create an alternate Device::Serial module that would be much cleaner than the existing one. As for where to put it on CPAN, I would suggest: Operating_System_Interfaces/Hardware Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org From r_beaudry at hotmail.com Mon Nov 26 15:48:14 2001 From: r_beaudry at hotmail.com (Rich Beaudry) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:11:33 2005 Subject: Multibus I items For Sale Message-ID: Hello all, I am trimming back my collection of Multibus I items. I am still keeping some card cages, power supplies, prototyping cards, and other cards, but I need to make room for other stuff :-) I would like to get some small amount of $$ per card, plus shipping, so please make offers. I will take offers until Thursday morning, to give the international and digest readers time to make offers. Stuff goes to the highest bidder, and remember, $0.00 is a valid bid. The vast majority of this stuff is untested, and is sold strictly as-is, so keep that in mind when bidding. I'm not looking for eBay prices, but I did pay for a lot of this stuff, so I'd like to get some of it back. Oh, by the way, MAKE ALL OFFERS OFF-LIST!!!!! I will NOT post updates to the list. Offers made to the list will be summarily dropped in the bit-bucket, and the offender will be summarily dropped into the molten iron bucket. Also, please do NOT email me and ask what the current high bid is. Make your bid, and deal with it :-) No documentation is included, unless stated explicitly below. Here's the list: - Qty. 8 Intel PWA-1000359 (seven are further marked "REV 01B"). These are in fair condition, some scratches on the tops of some ICs, and the ceramic caps are scratched. Also, the rotary switches for address decoding have lost a bit of their "snap", and are mushy to turn. - Qty. 7 Micro Industries BLC-508 I/O Expansion board. Seven of these are still in their original box, with waranty card. The eighth is unboxed, but in equally excellent condition. These are very nice boards, and although they all show light markings on the edge connectors, they haven't been used a lot. Rotary switches all snap nicely. - Qty. 1 National Semicondutor BLC-508 I/O Expansion board. Nice condition, very clean. - Qty. 1 Intel Comm. Expansion Board, PWA 1001197-04 L B F. Looks like an SBC-534, but it's not marked "534", so I'm not sure. Board in good condition. - Qty. 1 Ciprico Tapemaster. P/N 81006101A. 2 50-pin connectors for tapes, board in nice clean condition. - Qty. 1 OMEX Interface/Format Memory board. No idea what this is for, but the board is in nice clean condition. - Qty. 1 SMD 2180. Again, no idea what the board is for. 1 60-pin connector, 4 26-pin connectors. Nice clean condition. - Qty. 3 Multibus bus-extender boards. One is by Prototek, one by National Semiconductor, and the third is a no-name brand. - Qty. 1 Intersil MCB 512 memory board. Again, nice and clean. I believe I also have the manual for this. - Qty. 1 Plessey PSM 512 memory board. Nice and clean. I believe I have the manual for this. The Plessey board, or the Intersil board (can't remember) is not fully populated, and does not have sockets for the missing chips (ie, you'd have to solder in sockets, or solder in the chips). Keep that in mind.... Shipping will be by USPS to anywhere in the world they let me ship.... I will quote actual shipping charges when I know who gets what.... Thanks! Rich B. From mikeford at socal.rr.com Mon Nov 26 15:49:31 2001 From: mikeford at socal.rr.com (Mike Ford) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:11:33 2005 Subject: Central Point option floppy controller In-Reply-To: <001b01c1761e$89e817b0$19bd343f@artihome> Message-ID: > I just found a thread about this old card and was wondering if anyone >knows where I can purchase one or of a forum where I might be able to >make this sort of request. I apologize if this is out of context for this >forum. Thank you. Ray... A couple people on the list have one or two of these cards, so asking here is a good place. We have had a couple of fairly long discussions on the various models and brands of hardware and software used in reading many types of floppies, so a check of the archives is a good idea too. Whenever people ask for old stuff like this, my first question is what do you plan to do with it? From donm at cts.com Mon Nov 26 15:50:14 2001 From: donm at cts.com (Don Maslin) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:11:33 2005 Subject: Inaccessible CP/M programs in Altair32 In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.0.20011126001342.00bacd70@postoffice.pacbell.net> Message-ID: On Mon, 26 Nov 2001, Jim Battle wrote: > True, but Rich's emulator is of an Altair -- one with an 8080 in it. ZCPR2 > & 3 were Z80-only affairs, I believe. If he is running a true emulator, I would presume that he was running CP/M-1.4 would he not? If that is so, is it not true that user areas did not come into play until CP/M-2.x? - don > I recently picked up Richard Conn's ZCPR book for $10, but I haven't yet > had time to do more than page through it quickly. It looks like it was an > interesting system; the author was obviously influenced by unix. > > > At 08:33 AM 11/26/01 +0100, Sipke de Wal wrote: > >ZCPR2 & 3 (CP/M extensions) even allowed > >for 32 USER levels (0 .. 31) > > > >Sipke de Wal > >------------------------------------------------- > >http://xgistor.ath.cx > >------------------------------------------------- > > > >----- Original Message ----- > >From: Jim Battle > >To: > >Sent: Monday, November 26, 2001 7:51 AM > >Subject: Re: Inaccessible CP/M programs in Altair32 > > > > > > > Good point -- > > > > > > to flesh it out a bit more, there could be up to 16 different "user" areas > > > on the disk, which go from 0 to 15. Files were tagged with a nibble > > > indicating which user area the file belonged to. > > > > > > To change user areas, type: > > > > > > USER 1 > > > > > > to change to user area 1. By default you are in user 0. Changing to each > > > user area and typing "dir" to see if anything is there is a drag. To find > > > out which, if any, user areas have active files, type: > > > > > > STAT USR: > > > > > > and it responds with something like: > > > > > > Active User: 0 > > > Active Files: 0 1 > > > > > > to indicate you are currently in user 0 area and that user areas 0 and 1 > > > have files in them. > > > (confirmed on *my* CP/M emulator!) > > > > > > > > > At 10:18 PM 11/25/01 -0800, you wrote: > > > >I'm not an expert in Altair CP/M but I do remember one other aspect. It > > > >wasn't password protection but I do remember the concept of differnt user > > > >#'s. It wasn't complicated but somthing like user #'s 1-8. Once you > > > >were that user I seem to remember only the files belonging to that user > > > >showing up... > > > > > > > >Might be a dead end... Just a thought... > > > > > > > >George Rachor > > > > > > > >========================================================= > > > >George L. Rachor Jr. george@rachors.com > > > >Hillsboro, Oregon http://rachors.com > > > >United States of America Amateur Radio : KD7DCX > > > > > > > >On Sun, 25 Nov 2001, Jim Battle wrote: > > > > > > > > > At 10:06 PM 11/25/01 -0500, you wrote: > > > > > >Hi: > > > > > > > > > > > > I'm making progress with using CP/M under Altair32, but I > > have > > > > > > one newbie > > > > > >question since I don't have much experience with CP/M. > > > > > > > > > > > > The disk image I have shows one program in the directory, > > > > > > STAT.COM. Running > > > > > >STAT tells me that there is about 167k free (on a 330k disk). Looking > > > > at the > > > > > >disk image file with a hex file editor reveals that there's more > > > > programs on > > > > > >the disk. > > > > > > > > > > > > I seem to remember something about password protection on > > a CP/M > > > > > > disk. How > > > > > >do I get around this so that I can see what else is on this image? > > > > > > > > > > It isn't password protection. Files can be marked as "system" > > files, so > > > > > that they don't show up when you do a "DIR". I think "STAT *.* > > $DIR" will > > > > > revert all hidden files back to normal. > > > > > > > > > > ----- > > > > > Jim Battle == frustum@pacbell.net > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ----- > > > Jim Battle == frustum@pacbell.net > > > > > ----- > Jim Battle == frustum@pacbell.net > > From donm at cts.com Mon Nov 26 16:04:48 2001 From: donm at cts.com (Don Maslin) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:11:33 2005 Subject: Inaccessible CP/M programs in Altair32 In-Reply-To: <5.0.0.25.0.20011126075609.01f1e008@pc> Message-ID: On Mon, 26 Nov 2001, John Foust wrote: > > When CP/M deleted a file, did it just put a zero > at the start of the filename (like DOS), or did it erase the > entire field? Perhaps Rich saw deleted files... > > - John No, it put an 0E5H at the start. A `00' meant that it was in the User 0 area. - don From csmith at amdocs.com Mon Nov 26 16:08:25 2001 From: csmith at amdocs.com (Christopher Smith) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:11:33 2005 Subject: Northstar Message-ID: <3B55D7F383B0D31197D9009027541CBF1170DED1@cmiexch1.cmi.itds.com> Hi everybody. Somebody wrote sometime in the last couple of days about some Northstar S-100 machines that are soon to become available. I would respond directly, but I've lost the post. I may be interested in one of them. Please email me. (this address: csmith@amdocs.com) Regards, Chris Christopher Smith, Perl Developer Amdocs - Champaign, IL /usr/bin/perl -e ' print((~"\x95\xc4\xe3"^"Just Another Perl Hacker.")."\x08!\n"); ' From erd_6502 at yahoo.com Mon Nov 26 16:10:12 2001 From: erd_6502 at yahoo.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:11:33 2005 Subject: Finally got a Hayes Chronograph! In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20011126221012.28186.qmail@web20110.mail.yahoo.com> --- Sellam Ismail wrote: > On Mon, 26 Nov 2001, Ethan Dicks wrote: > > > I was contemplating writing a Perl module to front-end it (and hide > > the AT syntax for setting/reading it)... > > What Perl module are you using for serial port access? Or did you just > do a low level open of the serial device? I'm using Device::Serial, > which was modeled after the Win32 serial port routines and it sucks for > the most part. Well... I _hadn't_ yet. I was still rolling around design ideas in my head. I haven't written a byte of code yet. I really hadn't thought that serial access was going to be a problem, but, I haven't ever tried it from Perl. :-( I was contemplating passing a serial device descriptor ('/dev/ttyS01', '/dev/ttya', etc.) as part of the object constructor or as a seperate method (i.e., $hcr->setSerialPort($port_name)). I must admit that I never gave DOS/Win32 Perl a single thought. I was only thinking of Solaris/Linux since that's what I run at home. I even have Perl on my W2K laptop (from work) - I just don't ever have cause to run it. > If you rolled your own, I would mind seeing the code. I take it you meant "wouldn't"... > Serial ports under Unix are a bitch. I wanted to create an alternate > Device::Serial module that would be much cleaner than the existing one. I'll take your word for it. I wasn't expecting trouble in this area. It wouldn't be as clean, but perhaps the main loop could open the serial port in its own idiom and pass that open port descriptor to the Chronograph object. Little messy, but it's _your_ problem to open the port, not the Chronograph's problem. > As for where to put it on CPAN, I would suggest: > > Operating_System_Interfaces/Hardware I'll look into that area and see what else is hanging around. Thanks for the suggestion. -ethan __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! GeoCities - quick and easy web site hosting, just $8.95/month. http://geocities.yahoo.com/ps/info1 From mrbill at mrbill.net Mon Nov 26 16:27:37 2001 From: mrbill at mrbill.net (Bill Bradford) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:11:33 2005 Subject: PDP11 Processor handbook In-Reply-To: <3C029F65.9080406@cnonline.net> References: <3C029F65.9080406@cnonline.net> Message-ID: <20011126162737.F14419@mrbill.net> I've got a few of them; they're not that rare.. Bill On Mon, Nov 26, 2001 at 12:00:37PM -0800, Ron Hudson wrote: > I just picked up a PDP11 processor handbook. Listed on > the front also the pdp11/04/24/34a/44/70. There is a picture > of two of the shorter white system cabinets, one i guess is > one of the front loading tape driver the other case has two > "RL02" unit separated by "somthing" perhaps a cpu with no > front panel lights. The book is copyrighted 1981. > > Has this book been scaned? is it already available on the > internet? If not, I will make it available to someone who > will scan it and return it to me.. > > -- Bill Bradford mrbill@mrbill.net Austin, TX From edick at idcomm.com Mon Nov 26 16:49:26 2001 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:11:33 2005 Subject: 1771 floppy controller questions References: <20011126212121.12835.qmail@web20109.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <001f01c176cc$99f10500$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> Actually, my initial comment was that I'd happily junk a Coco in order to get a WD1773. I've got plenty of 1771's, and a few 179x's in my parts stock. If I needed a 1771, unlikely, but if it happened, I'd simply unplug one from an old "Big Board" SBC. I've got an upgrade to a 179x for them anyway. It's been a while since I last saw a Coco, and now that I know there's a 1773 in them, I'll snag one first chance I get. I've still got TRS-80 doc's lying about from back in the late '70's, but I've never owned a TRS-80. Dick ----- Original Message ----- From: "Ethan Dicks" To: Sent: Monday, November 26, 2001 2:21 PM Subject: Re: 1771 floppy controller questions > > --- Richard Erlacher wrote: > > You can get one for cheap if you go down to the thrift store and buy an > > old TRS-80. That will cost less than a new WD1771, I'd bet. > > I'll _trade_ you an old TRS-80 for a WD1771. I haven't seen > non-Commodore/Apple/IBM-compatible computers* at the thrift stores > in a long, long time. I suspect they don't bother setting them out > and just trash them. > > -ethan > > * - Not even Atari or Coleco or any of the once-common home machines. > > > > __________________________________________________ > Do You Yahoo!? > Yahoo! GeoCities - quick and easy web site hosting, just $8.95/month. > http://geocities.yahoo.com/ps/info1 > > From edick at idcomm.com Mon Nov 26 16:52:15 2001 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:11:33 2005 Subject: Multibus I items For Sale References: Message-ID: <002b01c176cd$009c48a0$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> The SMD 2180, seems to me, must be an SMD interface. The control cable is 60-pins and the data cables are 26. It fits the model. Dick ----- Original Message ----- From: "Rich Beaudry" To: Sent: Monday, November 26, 2001 2:48 PM Subject: Multibus I items For Sale > Hello all, > > I am trimming back my collection of Multibus I items. I am still keeping > some card cages, power supplies, prototyping cards, and other cards, but I > need to make room for other stuff :-) > > I would like to get some small amount of $$ per card, plus shipping, so > please make offers. I will take offers until Thursday morning, to give the > international and digest readers time to make offers. Stuff goes to the > highest bidder, and remember, $0.00 is a valid bid. > > The vast majority of this stuff is untested, and is sold strictly as-is, so > keep that in mind when bidding. I'm not looking for eBay prices, but I did > pay for a lot of this stuff, so I'd like to get some of it back. > > Oh, by the way, MAKE ALL OFFERS OFF-LIST!!!!! I will NOT post updates to > the list. Offers made to the list will be summarily dropped in the > bit-bucket, and the offender will be summarily dropped into the molten iron > bucket. Also, please do NOT email me and ask what the current high bid is. > Make your bid, and deal with it :-) > > No documentation is included, unless stated explicitly below. > > Here's the list: > > - Qty. 8 Intel PWA-1000359 (seven are further marked "REV 01B"). These are > in fair condition, some scratches on the tops of some ICs, and the ceramic > caps are scratched. Also, the rotary switches for address decoding have > lost a bit of their "snap", and are mushy to turn. > - Qty. 7 Micro Industries BLC-508 I/O Expansion board. Seven of these are > still in their original box, with waranty card. The eighth is unboxed, but > in equally excellent condition. These are very nice boards, and although > they all show light markings on the edge connectors, they haven't been used > a lot. Rotary switches all snap nicely. > - Qty. 1 National Semicondutor BLC-508 I/O Expansion board. Nice condition, > very clean. > - Qty. 1 Intel Comm. Expansion Board, PWA 1001197-04 L B F. Looks like an > SBC-534, but it's not marked "534", so I'm not sure. Board in good > condition. > - Qty. 1 Ciprico Tapemaster. P/N 81006101A. 2 50-pin connectors for tapes, > board in nice clean condition. > - Qty. 1 OMEX Interface/Format Memory board. No idea what this is for, but > the board is in nice clean condition. > - Qty. 1 SMD 2180. Again, no idea what the board is for. 1 60-pin > connector, 4 26-pin connectors. Nice clean condition. > - Qty. 3 Multibus bus-extender boards. One is by Prototek, one by National > Semiconductor, and the third is a no-name brand. > - Qty. 1 Intersil MCB 512 memory board. Again, nice and clean. I believe I > also have the manual for this. > - Qty. 1 Plessey PSM 512 memory board. Nice and clean. I believe I have > the manual for this. > > The Plessey board, or the Intersil board (can't remember) is not fully > populated, and does not have sockets for the missing chips (ie, you'd have > to solder in sockets, or solder in the chips). Keep that in mind.... > > Shipping will be by USPS to anywhere in the world they let me ship.... I > will quote actual shipping charges when I know who gets what.... > > Thanks! > > Rich B. > > > From rhudson at cnonline.net Mon Nov 26 17:01:50 2001 From: rhudson at cnonline.net (Ron Hudson) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:11:34 2005 Subject: wtb apple game paddles Message-ID: <3C02C9DE.6000708@cnonline.net> Anyone have a set of apple game paddles, to plug in to the 9pin female port on the back of my appleiie or apple ii c plus? to spare? From ghldbrd at ccp.com Sun Nov 25 16:33:42 2001 From: ghldbrd at ccp.com (Gary Hildebrand) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:11:34 2005 Subject: Adam Computer References: <4.3.2.7.2.20011125134903.00a988e0@pop3.norton.antivirus> Message-ID: <3C0171C6.8964C71@ccp.com> Gene Ehrich wrote: > > Does anybody have any idea of the value of a brand new in boxes Adam computer? Not much . . . except as a curiosity. I did you you should have been able to run cp/m on it. The trick is getting formatted casette tapes. Gary Hildebrand From ghldbrd at ccp.com Sun Nov 25 16:37:04 2001 From: ghldbrd at ccp.com (Gary Hildebrand) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:11:34 2005 Subject: FS: Victor Technologies Computers, Software, Documentation References: <20011125202242.55847.qmail@web21109.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <3C017290.EEF9B7A0@ccp.com> Intersting, I have a Victor printer, big as a horse, kinda neat, has parallel/series/IEE488 interfaces on it. Works fine except for . . no ribbons available for it. Is that part of the package?? Gary Hildebrand Brad Chase wrote: > > Please respond directly to victor9000us@yahoo.com > > The Victor 9000 was an impressive early generation > 808x based PC designed by Chuck Peddle. With a (for > the time) high resolution green screen no glare > monitor, large 1.2mb 5 1/4" floppies, and built-in > sound capabilities, it was an excellent machine. > Indeed, Victor scored many early sales wins with large > companies such as Ford Motor Cars. > > I have a considerable stash of Victor Technologies > equipment, software, and documentation that I must > part with. Read on... > > Victor Technologies Vicki Portable System > ----------------------------------------- > > Rare Victor 9000 compatible portable (well, luggable, > though smaller and lighter than the original Compaqs) > from the early 1980s. This system has dual 1.2 mb 5 > 1/4" floppy drives, 640KB of memory, keyboard, > built-in small green screen (8" or so I think), and > built-in serial and parallel ports. (Floppies are NOT > PC/AT compatible, as Victors use a variable speed > floppy system to achieve 1.2mb.) System is in full > working order (I booted it yesterday to make sure), > and comes with MS-DOS 2.11 and MS-DOS 3.1 for Vicki > and diagnostics diskettes. > > Victor 9000 System with PlusPC IBM Compatibility Kit > ---------------------------------------------------- > > When Victor realized that PCs and PC clones were going > to become the standard, they created the PlusPC kit to > retrofit Victor 9000s to become PC compatible. PlusPC > systems can boot in either "V" mode, which is fully > Victor compatible or "I" mode which is fully PC > compatible (with the exception of not being able to > format 360K diskettes). System can read and write both > PC 360K diskettes and Victor 640K single side or 1.2mb > double side diskettes. > > This Victor 9000 system has had the PlusPC kit > installed. It is a dual double-sided floppy system > (the PlusPC was installable only on double sided > floppy machines) with 512K of RAM and built in serial > and parallel ports. It comes with power cables, MS-DOS > for PlusPC, MS-DOS for Victor 9000, monitor, keyboard, > and manuals. The system works-- I booted it yesterday. > Also included are a set of customer built, foam lined, > hard sided carrying cases for the system. I also think > I have the original controller board that will let you > turn this back into a pure Victor 9000-- if I have it, > I'll include it with the system. > > Victor 9000 Networking Equipment > -------------------------------- > > I have a few (4 I think) Victor 9000 Network cards. I > also have the network interface boxes, some cabling, > software for DOS 1.25 and 2.11, documentation, and > device driver software. The hardware was all taken > from a working network a few years ago, and I believe > it all works, but I won't promise. Just about > guaranteed to be incompatible with any other network > hardware. ;-) > > Other Victor 9000 Hardware > -------------------------- > > 1 PlusPC Kit, not installed in a system, with manuals > still in shrink wrap. > > 2 or 3 Victor 9000 memory boards from various > manufacturers. May not work (I'm sure one doesn't), > but also full of memory chips. > > 1 Victor clock card. May or may not work. > > Miniscribe III hard disk. May or may not work. > > Victor 9000 Software and Tool Kits > ---------------------------------- > > MS-DOS 1.25 for Victor 9000 > > MS-DOS 2.11 for Victor 9000 > > MS-DOS 3.1 for Victor 9000 > > CP/M-86 for Victor 9000 > > Victor Hard Disk Tool Kit > > Victor Hard Disk Tool Kit II > > Victor Graphics Tool Kit > > Victor Graphics Tool Kit II > > Victor Programmers Tool Kit > > Victor Audio Tool Kit with audio amplifier card > (Allows voice recording. The victors have a built in > voice playback capability.) > > Victor CP/M-80 system with Z-80 card. Yep, you really > can run Z-80 programs on a Victor. > > Assorted Victor diagnostic disks > > Word Perfect 4.x (DOS version) for Victor 9000 with > manuals > > Complete VictorPULSE public domain software library- > over 70 disks of software, information, and > documentation for Victor 9000s. > > Write Crane RAM disk for Victor 9000 > > White Crane Brooklyn bridge (PC transfer software) for > Victor 9000 > > Fancy Font (scalable fonts from dot matrix printers) > for Victor 9000 > > Victor Documentation > -------------------- > > Victor Hardware Reference Manual > > Victor Supplementary Hardware Reference Manual (This > is also available in electronic form as one of the > disks in the public domain software set.) > > Victor Field Service Bulletins > > Valid Technologies Memory Board manual & diagnostics > > Pretty complete set of Channel 9000 (Victor User > Group) newsletters > > Odds and Ends > ------------- > > US Robotics Courier 2400 (external) modem. (Yes, there > is communication software in all that software above-- > it's in with the public domain stuff. No, it won't do > TCP/IP.) > > US Robotics Sportster 9600 (external) modem > > Citizen 120D dot-matrix printer > > Panasonic KXP1092 dot-matrix printer > > Large supply of blank 5 1/4" disks. > > TERMS AND CONDITIONS > -------------------- > > Make an offer. I would prefer to send it all out as > one huge load or several large ones, but will consider > other proposals. > > All items are available as is, without warranty. I've > powered up the systems to make sure they work. Most > other stuff should (and did the last time I used it) > work unless I've made a note to the contrary. It would > be a real pain to try and install and test it all > again now, so I'm not. > > Shipping from southern New Hampshire is *your* > responsibility, though I could probably be persuaded > to deliver within a reasonable driving distance (an > hour or less). :-) There's a lot here.... if someone > wants the works (my first choice), it's probably > enough for a small pallet load. > > You got questions? Just ask. > > Please respond directly to victor9000us@yahoo.com-- > not to the mailing list. > > __________________________________________________ > Do You Yahoo!? > Yahoo! GeoCities - quick and easy web site hosting, just $8.95/month. > http://geocities.yahoo.com/ps/info1 From jrkeys at concentric.net Mon Nov 26 17:31:32 2001 From: jrkeys at concentric.net (John R. Keys Jr.) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:11:34 2005 Subject: 360k versus 1.2Mb floppy drives... References: <000801c1761f$791186a0$19bd343f@artihome> Message-ID: <008a01c176d2$7ede6b80$98721fd1@default> If you flip open the door and see two pins one on the right front corner and one on the left front corner you have a high density drive. So if you see only one pin you have a 720. These are the pins that go into the holes at the top of the 3.5 FD. ----- Original Message ----- From: "SchiskaMeister" To: Sent: Sunday, November 25, 2001 8:10 PM Subject: 360k versus 1.2Mb floppy drives... Does anyone know if there is a way to tell which is which by looking at the drive?. FTM the 720k vs 1.44Mb 3 1/2" drives. Thanks in advance... R.. From cisin at xenosoft.com Mon Nov 26 18:12:47 2001 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin (XenoSoft)) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:11:34 2005 Subject: 360k versus 1.2Mb floppy drives... In-Reply-To: <008a01c176d2$7ede6b80$98721fd1@default> Message-ID: > If you flip open the door and see two pins one on the right front corner > and one on the left front corner you have a high density drive. So if > you see only one pin you have a 720. These are the pins that go into > the holes at the top of the 3.5 FD. Hmmm. None of my 360K nor 1.2M drives have pins to sense density. If there is an asterisk ('*') embossed on the front panel of a 5.25" drive, then it is a relatively late model 360K. If there is NO asterisk ('*') then is an older 360K, OR a 1.2M, OR a later 360K from a non-complying company that thought that it was pretty stupid to go along with IBM's grand idea of putting the identifying mark on the new versions of the model that previously was unmarked (putting an asterisk on the NEW type of drive might have made sense). If the 5.25" drive turns at 360 RPM, then it is a 1.2M. If it turns at 300 RPM, then it is a 360K, or "360K mode" in of the 1.2M drives that switched speed instead of switching data transfer rate (as IBM did). 300 RPM was also used for 720K 5.25" drives. (not used on IBM, except for the JX model) Is there any connection to the "density" pin? To summarize: look up the part number. BTW, for 3.5", not all drives used "pins". Some used photocells. -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin@xenosoft.com From jhingber at ix.netcom.com Mon Nov 26 18:07:49 2001 From: jhingber at ix.netcom.com (Jeffrey H. Ingber) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:11:34 2005 Subject: Lisa Success.....finally... In-Reply-To: <3B55D7F383B0D31197D9009027541CBF1170DEC5@cmiexch1.cmi.itds.com> References: <3B55D7F383B0D31197D9009027541CBF1170DEC5@cmiexch1.cmi.itds.com> Message-ID: <1006819692.13500.0.camel@eleusis> On Mon, 2001-11-26 at 12:28, Christopher Smith wrote: > > -----Original Message----- > > From: Jeff Hellige [mailto:jhellige@earthlink.net] > > > Does yours have an external parallel connector or an internal > > hard disk or possibly both? I'm pretty sure all Mac XL's lack the > > external parallel connector, unless there's an expansion card fitted > > for use with the Profile drive, and that it would be like a Lisa 2/10 > > That's not completely true -- at least for the Mac XL that I've seen. The > plug for the internal hard disk was ran via ribbon-cable out of the case, > and connected into the external port. The XL I have has no ribbon cable looping outside of the case. The HD connection is internal. Jeffrey H. Ingber (jhingber _at_ ix.netcom.com) > > Regards, > > Chris > > > Christopher Smith, Perl Developer > Amdocs - Champaign, IL > > /usr/bin/perl -e ' > print((~"\x95\xc4\xe3"^"Just Another Perl Hacker.")."\x08!\n"); > ' > From pete at dunnington.u-net.com Mon Nov 26 18:07:33 2001 From: pete at dunnington.u-net.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:11:34 2005 Subject: PDP-8/E questions In-Reply-To: ard@p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) "Re: PDP-8/E questions" (Nov 25, 1:28) References: Message-ID: <10111270007.ZM27710@mindy.dunnington.u-net.com> On Nov 25, 1:13, Pete Turnbull wrote: > The front bezel (frame round the panel) has been repainted white, and the > paint has flaked or chipped off in places, to reveal a chipped coat of > beige paint. I'd like to refinish and respray it. What's the correct > colour? On Nov 25, 1:28, Tony Duell wrote: > Mine is the normal DEC white colour (same as an RK05 or RX01, or... panel). > And I don't think it's ever been repainted On Nov 24, 21:03, ajp166 wrote: > DEC gray #68 A color close to eggshell toward very light gray. OK, so which? White or gray? I'm inclined to believe Allison, as my RX02 is the same colour as my QBus machines, and that's gray. But my 11/40 is lighter than that (though still not white), and in the pictures on David Gesswein's pages (eg http://www.pdp8.net/pdp8em/pics/topboards.shtml?small) it looks decidely white.... Mine has obviously had a thick coat (undercoat?) of grey, same colour as my RX02, 11/23plus, 11/03, 11T23, 11/34, etc; but also had a thinner coat of white on top. -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager University of York From foo at siconic.com Mon Nov 26 18:17:10 2001 From: foo at siconic.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:11:34 2005 Subject: Finally got a Hayes Chronograph! In-Reply-To: <20011126221012.28186.qmail@web20110.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: On Mon, 26 Nov 2001, Ethan Dicks wrote: > Well... I _hadn't_ yet. I was still rolling around design ideas in my > head. I haven't written a byte of code yet. I really hadn't thought > that serial access was going to be a problem, but, I haven't ever > tried it from Perl. :-( I was contemplating passing a serial device > descriptor ('/dev/ttyS01', '/dev/ttya', etc.) as part of the object > constructor or as a seperate method (i.e., > $hcr->setSerialPort($port_name)). I must admit that I never gave > DOS/Win32 Perl a single thought. I was only thinking of Solaris/Linux > since that's what I run at home. I even have Perl on my W2K laptop > (from work) - I just don't ever have cause to run it. Well, you certainly want to check out Device::SerialPort then. As I said before, the interface mostly sucks, but it will be good enough for what you want to do (send commands and receive data). I am just used to having more control of the serial stream. The constructor in this module works pretty much as you describe. I can help you get up and running with it so you can cut out some development time. Once you get used to it it's pretty easy to use. Unix has a powerful but very complex interface to the serial port. There are a couple good tutors online for accessing serial ports in Unix, but I haven't gotten around to hacking up a good library. I just don't have that kind of patience anymore, though a better one is sorely needed for Perl. Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Mon Nov 26 20:06:16 2001 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (ajp166) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:11:34 2005 Subject: PDP-8/E questions Message-ID: <001201c176e9$bcfd50e0$77ec9a8d@ajp166> The undercoat is the right one. Keep in mind the color is light gray and can look almost white in a gamma saturated picture. Also over the early years DEC standard gray has never been exactly the same color. It tended to standardize over time. Allison -----Original Message----- From: Pete Turnbull To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org Date: Monday, November 26, 2001 7:36 PM Subject: Re: PDP-8/E questions >On Nov 25, 1:13, Pete Turnbull wrote: > >> The front bezel (frame round the panel) has been repainted white, and the >> paint has flaked or chipped off in places, to reveal a chipped coat of >> beige paint. I'd like to refinish and respray it. What's the correct >> colour? > >On Nov 25, 1:28, Tony Duell wrote: > >> Mine is the normal DEC white colour (same as an RK05 or RX01, or... >panel). >> And I don't think it's ever been repainted > >On Nov 24, 21:03, ajp166 wrote: >> DEC gray #68 A color close to eggshell toward very light gray. > >OK, so which? White or gray? I'm inclined to believe Allison, as my RX02 >is the same colour as my QBus machines, and that's gray. But my 11/40 is >lighter than that (though still not white), and in the pictures on David >Gesswein's pages (eg http://www.pdp8.net/pdp8em/pics/topboards.shtml?small) >it looks decidely white.... > >Mine has obviously had a thick coat (undercoat?) of grey, same colour as my >RX02, 11/23plus, 11/03, 11T23, 11/34, etc; but also had a thinner coat of >white on top. > >-- >Pete Peter Turnbull > Network Manager > University of York From tothwolf at concentric.net Mon Nov 26 20:36:36 2001 From: tothwolf at concentric.net (Tothwolf) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:11:34 2005 Subject: 1771 floppy controller questions In-Reply-To: <001f01c176cc$99f10500$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> Message-ID: On Mon, 26 Nov 2001, Richard Erlacher wrote: > From: "Ethan Dicks" > > --- Richard Erlacher wrote: > > > You can get one for cheap if you go down to the thrift store and buy an > > > old TRS-80. That will cost less than a new WD1771, I'd bet. > > > > I'll _trade_ you an old TRS-80 for a WD1771. I haven't seen > > non-Commodore/Apple/IBM-compatible computers* at the thrift stores > > in a long, long time. I suspect they don't bother setting them out > > and just trash them. > > Actually, my initial comment was that I'd happily junk a Coco in order > to get a WD1773. I've got plenty of 1771's, and a few 179x's in my > parts stock. If I needed a 1771, unlikely, but if it happened, I'd > simply unplug one from an old "Big Board" SBC. I've got an upgrade to > a 179x for them anyway. It's been a while since I last saw a Coco, > and now that I know there's a 1773 in them, I'll snag one first chance > I get. I've still got TRS-80 doc's lying about from back in the late > '70's, but I've never owned a TRS-80. Well, I now have a pair of brand new WD1771 chips on hand, one for my model 1, and one spare. A local vendor I use will sell me as many chips as I need for $5ea. They have both the WD and National versions of the chip. I imagine they have another 25-40+ chips left in stock, tho a good many of them need to have their pins straightened. -Toth From tothwolf at concentric.net Mon Nov 26 20:38:11 2001 From: tothwolf at concentric.net (Tothwolf) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:11:34 2005 Subject: 1771 floppy controller questions In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Fri, 23 Nov 2001, Don Maslin wrote: > On Fri, 23 Nov 2001, Tothwolf wrote: > > On Thu, 22 Nov 2001, Tony Duell wrote: > > > > > > At the time I thought the particular lead might have not been used, and or > > > > someone damaged it when installing the chip. I had never seen a chip with > > > > > > IIRC, the DRAMs in the model 3 are 16K * 1 4116s or similar. All the pins > > > are used on these chips. If a pin is missing, then you are going to have > > > problems... > > > > I wonder if it would be worth soldering a new pin to what's left of that > > chip's lead? It looked like it had just corroded off, but with no other > > signs of moisture, I was kinda puzzled. > > Why not? You might want to checkout the socket pretty thoroughly, > though. I didn't see any damage when I originally looked at it, but I will double check it before I plug in a repaired/replacement chip. -Toth From tothwolf at concentric.net Mon Nov 26 20:42:23 2001 From: tothwolf at concentric.net (Tothwolf) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:11:34 2005 Subject: 1771 floppy controller questions In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Fri, 23 Nov 2001, Tony Duell wrote: > > I wonder if it would be worth soldering a new pin to what's left of that > > chip's lead? It looked like it had just corroded off, but with no other > > It's worth a try. I've soldered pins onto irreplaceable custom > chips/ROMs/etc and got them to work again. I done this a few times. The last chip I repaired this way, I used a dental bur bit in a dremel to remove enough of the plastic to solder on a new lead. Whatever it is they make those plastic dips out of sure is tough... > > signs of moisture, I was kinda puzzled. > > It supprises me, too... I'd be interested to know which pin it is. I will post the info to the list when I get it out to start work on it. -Toth From tothwolf at concentric.net Mon Nov 26 20:46:43 2001 From: tothwolf at concentric.net (Tothwolf) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:11:34 2005 Subject: 1771 floppy controller questions In-Reply-To: <002f01c17433$b42bad80$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> Message-ID: On Fri, 23 Nov 2001, Richard Erlacher wrote: > From: "Tothwolf" > > > I wonder if it would be worth soldering a new pin to what's left of that > > chip's lead? It looked like it had just corroded off, but with no other > > signs of moisture, I was kinda puzzled. > > If you need 4116's, just send me your address. I've got more than I'll EVER > use, believe me. Thanks for the offer, I'll try my luck at repairing this one before I replace it. I think some of the chips in that machine were replaced already. It has a few dip style chips mixed in with the standard ceramic ones. -Toth From dittman at dittman.net Mon Nov 26 21:03:59 2001 From: dittman at dittman.net (Eric Dittman) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:11:34 2005 Subject: one shoe down ... In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20011126121648.00aafec0@mcmanis.com> from "Chuck McManis" at Nov 26, 2001 12:21:03 PM Message-ID: <200111270303.fAR33x312634@narnia.int.dittman.net> > At 11:45 AM 11/26/01, Ethan Dicks wrote: > >For those of us DECUS members who have not yet gotten any hobbyist VAX > >licenses, is it too late? I have one of the recent hobby CDs and a bunch > >of 6.x originals, so media isn't a real problem, but licenses are. > > Its still possible to get licenses if you have a DECUS *number.* The > original DECUS membership "ids" were a mix of letters (basically parts of > both your last and first name) and they were later changed to Encompass > membership numbers. If you have the number then the Montagar page will > accept it, if you have the old LETTER id then that page will not recognize it. The original DECUS IDs were numbers, then a couple of years ago they switched to the mix of letters. They've just recently gone back to numbers. > >What about a project to hack LMF? There was a lot of controversy a while > >back about the "Screw LMF" T-Shirt at a Symposium with, IIRC, a 5.2 and > >5.3 patch (details of exact versions fuzzy). Did DEC decide to lock stuff > >down after 5.x or is it still possible to simply bypass checks in LMF.EXE > >to always grant a license? > > Well it has been demonstrated on this list that one can "reverse engineer" > the LMF algorithm and generate your own PAKs. Presumably that is an option, > although it becomes significantly more onerous than being "legit" You can patch VMS to always return a valid status for a requested product, but some products request a bogus license to check if this patch is in place. If it is, the product will disable itself. I don't remember any of DEC's/Compaq's products checking for the patch, but I know of at least two third-party products that perform the check. -- Eric Dittman dittman@dittman.net Check out the DEC Enthusiasts Club at http://www.dittman.net/ From victor9000us at yahoo.com Mon Nov 26 21:03:05 2001 From: victor9000us at yahoo.com (Brad Chase) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:11:34 2005 Subject: FS: Victor Technologies Computers, Software, Documentation In-Reply-To: <3C017290.EEF9B7A0@ccp.com> Message-ID: <3C02BC19.9613.1A9EF31@localhost> Sorry, no ribbons.... I don't think Victor actually manufactured their own printers, but instead rebranded someone else's. If I still had a supply catalog from 20 years ago I could even tell you whose.... -b > Intersting, I have a Victor printer, big as a horse, kinda neat, has > parallel/series/IEE488 interfaces on it. Works fine except for . . no > ribbons available for it. > > Is that part of the package?? > > Gary Hildebrand > From dittman at dittman.net Mon Nov 26 21:05:52 2001 From: dittman at dittman.net (Eric Dittman) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:11:34 2005 Subject: one shoe down ... In-Reply-To: <200111262006.PAA16295@stage20.ureach.com> from "Bill Pechter" at Nov 26, 2001 03:06:45 PM Message-ID: <200111270305.fAR35qN12644@narnia.int.dittman.net> > When I can't get the license files anymore, > I guess my VAX goes from OpenVMS to NetBSD. My guess is the loss of free licenses will result in the anonymous posting of a way to generate valid licenses. Please don't quote me on this, though. -- Eric Dittman dittman@dittman.net Check out the DEC Enthusiasts Club at http://www.dittman.net/ From cmurillo at emtelsa.multi.net.co Mon Nov 26 21:33:24 2001 From: cmurillo at emtelsa.multi.net.co (Carlos Murillo) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:11:34 2005 Subject: one shoe down ... In-Reply-To: <200111262006.PAA16295@stage20.ureach.com> Message-ID: <3.0.2.32.20011126223324.010c900c@obregon.multi.net.co> At 03:06 PM 11/26/01 -0500, you wrote: >When I can't get the license files anymore, >I guess my VAX goes from OpenVMS to NetBSD. > >Bill Same goes for mine. I might leave an HD with OpenVMS around and turn back the date to boot it now and then. Carlos. -------------------------------------------------------------- Carlos E. Murillo-Sanchez carlos_murillo@nospammers.ieee.org From geoffrob at stmarks.pp.catholic.edu.au Mon Nov 26 22:15:18 2001 From: geoffrob at stmarks.pp.catholic.edu.au (Geoff Roberts) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:11:34 2005 Subject: one shoe down ... References: <200111270303.fAR33x312634@narnia.int.dittman.net> Message-ID: <062e01c176fa$1f96e990$de2c67cb@helpdesk> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Eric Dittman" To: Sent: Tuesday, November 27, 2001 1:33 PM Subject: Re: one shoe down ... > You can patch VMS to always return a valid status for a requested product, > but some products request a bogus license to check if this patch is in > place. If it is, the product will disable itself. Or you can run a little app that correctly creates what appears to be a valid installed license for what particular products you wish to run, including the version, number of license units etc. I have plenty of VMS licenses, including a few unlimited user non expiring ones, and a smattering of app licenses, so I don't need it. But I can tell you that the app in question apparently works with any LDB based product. > I don't remember any of DEC's/Compaq's products checking for the patch, > but I know of at least two third-party products that perform the check. They would still work with this particular method. Just as a matter of interest, which apps? Some 3rd party stuff is a bit strange, PerfectDisk, for instance, uses some oddball method, not the LDB. Personally, I firmly believe that all such license enforcement systems are a waste of time, since ultimately they can all be circumvented. It's just a question of how bad you want to do it... Geoff Roberts Computer Systems Manager Saint Mark's College Port Pirie, South Australia geoffrob@stmarks.pp.catholic.edu.au ICQ 1970476 From ncherry at home.com Mon Nov 26 23:12:57 2001 From: ncherry at home.com (Neil Cherry) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:11:34 2005 Subject: Microvax, M3118-YA and pinouts Message-ID: <3C0320D9.A837D49A@home.com> I just bid on an M3118-YA (16 port Async card) and won. Will it work in a MV 3400 and does anyone know the pin outs (in case I don't get the cable)? Thanks -- Linux Home Automation Neil Cherry ncherry@home.net http://members.home.net/ncherry (Text only) http://linuxha.sourceforge.net/ (SourceForge) http://hcs.sourceforge.net/ (HCS II) From geoffr at zipcon.net Tue Nov 27 00:43:10 2001 From: geoffr at zipcon.net (Geoff Reed) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:11:34 2005 Subject: FS: Victor Technologies Computers, Software, Documentation In-Reply-To: <3C02BC19.9613.1A9EF31@localhost> References: <3C017290.EEF9B7A0@ccp.com> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20011126222804.03268730@mail.zipcon.net> Try Computerfriends. http://www.cfriends.com/macinker.htm if you can get even a dead cart for the printer, you can reink or replace the ribbon in it.... also look at.. http://www.alpha-resources.com/lec/victor.html AR-484(601-484) PRINTER RIBBON AND SPOOL if this is the ribbon, it looks familiar to me... possibly an Okidata ribbon? http://shop.store.yahoo.com/actioncomputer/victorribbon.html or look at http://www.dataproducts.com/ there are 447 ribbons listed that relate to victor printers, calcs, etc..... At 10:03 PM 11/26/01 -0500, you wrote: >Sorry, no ribbons.... > >I don't think Victor actually manufactured their own printers, but instead >rebranded someone >else's. If I still had a supply catalog from 20 years ago I could even >tell you whose.... > > -b > > > Intersting, I have a Victor printer, big as a horse, kinda neat, has > > parallel/series/IEE488 interfaces on it. Works fine except for . . no > > ribbons available for it. > > > > Is that part of the package?? > > > > Gary Hildebrand > > From ms at silke.rt.schwaben.de Tue Nov 27 01:26:44 2001 From: ms at silke.rt.schwaben.de (Michael Schneider) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:11:34 2005 Subject: Microvax, M3118-YA and pinouts In-Reply-To: <3C0320D9.A837D49A@home.com> References: <3C0320D9.A837D49A@home.com> Message-ID: <1006846005.940.3.camel@silke> It will work. Don't know about the pinout, though... ms On Tue, 2001-11-27 at 06:12, Neil Cherry wrote: > I just bid on an M3118-YA (16 port Async card) and won. Will it work in > a MV 3400 and does anyone know the pin outs (in case I don't get the > cable)? > > Thanks > > -- > Linux Home Automation Neil Cherry ncherry@home.net > http://members.home.net/ncherry (Text only) > http://linuxha.sourceforge.net/ (SourceForge) > http://hcs.sourceforge.net/ (HCS II) > -- Michael Schneider email: ms@silke.rt.schwaben.de Germany http://www.vaxcluster.de People disagree with me. I just ignore them. (Linus Torvalds) From pete at dunnington.u-net.com Tue Nov 27 02:14:20 2001 From: pete at dunnington.u-net.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:11:34 2005 Subject: PDP-8/E questions In-Reply-To: "ajp166" "Re: PDP-8/E questions" (Nov 26, 21:06) References: <001201c176e9$bcfd50e0$77ec9a8d@ajp166> Message-ID: <10111270814.ZM28002@mindy.dunnington.u-net.com> On Nov 26, 21:06, ajp166 wrote: > The undercoat is the right one. Keep in mind the color is light gray > and can look almost white in a gamma saturated picture. > > Also over the early years DEC standard gray has never been exactly > the same color. It tended to standardize over time. Thanks! That's kind of what I thought. I'll go to the car accessory shop tonight and see how close a mtch I can get. -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager University of York From Antonio.Carlini at riverstonenet.com Tue Nov 27 03:39:11 2001 From: Antonio.Carlini at riverstonenet.com (Carlini, Antonio) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:11:34 2005 Subject: one shoe down ... Message-ID: <3820E2042B6ED5118DC200D0B78EDC47066251@exc-reo1> Geoff Roberts wrote: > Or you can run a little app that correctly creates what > appears to be a > valid installed license for what particular products you wish to run, > including the version, number of license units etc. Never seen this done, never even heard of such an app before. I know that at least two groups (or people) managed to reverse engineer licence PAKs. One was even stopped by DEC through legal action (IIRC). > They would still work with this particular method. > Just as a matter of interest, which apps? One of the 3rd party TCP/IP apps was reputed to do this - possibly Multinet. It's easy enough to check since there is a logical you can set which causes all licence requests to be displayed on the operator console. > Personally, I firmly believe that all such license > enforcement systems are a > waste of time, since ultimately they can all be circumvented. > It's just a > question of how bad you want to do it... To be fair it was never touted as an enforcement method. It was only there as a minor hurdle or tripwire to warn you that you were not allowed to run some software or to limit your usage of said software. This meant that you had to take deliberate steps to get past the LMF. Presumably a defence of "I didn't realise" would have been somewhat harder to use in court! Antonio From guerney at bigpond.com Tue Nov 27 06:19:08 2001 From: guerney at bigpond.com (Phil Guerney) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:11:34 2005 Subject: Computer Technician's Handbook (1971) and Computer Automation PDC 808 (1968) Message-ID: <003501c1773d$b9d2e0c0$7937fea9@Guerney> At a charity book sale I turned up this book* which promised to "turn an ordinary electronics technician into a computer maintenance specialist". And what a wide open field it was - as it says in Chapter 1: "as of some recent reckonong, there were in the neighborhood of some 50,000 computers currently in operation in some capacity or other" The book used as an example of a "Typical Small Computer" the Computer Automation PDC 808. The picture of the roughly Altair/Imsai sized box was actually labelled "PDC 808 Controller". The CCC list says this box was released in May 1968 (4K of 8-bit core) and there are just a couple of references to it on the Web I can find, and none from recent years. The book contains over 200 pages covering this device to the minutest detail. It seems a shame that such an apparently rare machine was chosen so we do not have a chance to work through the exercise today - it is rare sin't it? *by Brice Ward, published by Foulsham-Tab Ltd (the English version of the American TAB books) Phil From allain at panix.com Tue Nov 27 07:39:53 2001 From: allain at panix.com (John Allain) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:11:34 2005 Subject: one shoe down ... References: <7B4C28C84831D211BFA200805F9F34561A8F27@nswcdlvaex04.nswc.navy.mil> Message-ID: <000d01c17749$25f648e0$8a0101ac@ibm23xhr06> > Well, apparently we should now start worrying.... Start? Let's see... First VMS is renamed to OpenVMS. Then the entirety of digital is bought out. Then the VAX line is discontinued. Then the Alpha Chip is discontinued. (think this is the chronology. corrections?) All joking aside, if PDP/RSTS is still alive, as I think was said on this list, then add at least 10 years to that equation to see the end of VAX-Alpha/VMS support. Perhaps the prices of productized VMS and hobbyist VMS will pass on the way down/up and settle on one nice low number. John A. From RCini at congressfinancial.com Tue Nov 27 07:49:39 2001 From: RCini at congressfinancial.com (Cini, Richard) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:11:34 2005 Subject: Inaccessible CP/M programs in Altair32 Message-ID: <497A9E0467D2D2119B760090271EB8E5879F90@MAIL10> Don: The emulator is running CP/M 2.2. It can also run AltairDOS and Microsoft Disk BASIC (all of which I have images for). I also have a 5mb CP/M hard disk image. Rich ========================== Richard A. Cini, Jr. Congress Financial Corporation 1133 Avenue of the Americas 30th Floor New York, NY 10036 (212) 545-4402 (212) 840-6259 (facsimile) -----Original Message----- From: Don Maslin [mailto:donm@cts.com] Sent: Monday, November 26, 2001 4:50 PM To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org Subject: Re: Inaccessible CP/M programs in Altair32 On Mon, 26 Nov 2001, Jim Battle wrote: > True, but Rich's emulator is of an Altair -- one with an 8080 in it. ZCPR2 > & 3 were Z80-only affairs, I believe. If he is running a true emulator, I would presume that he was running CP/M-1.4 would he not? If that is so, is it not true that user areas did not come into play until CP/M-2.x? - don > I recently picked up Richard Conn's ZCPR book for $10, but I haven't yet > had time to do more than page through it quickly. It looks like it was an > interesting system; the author was obviously influenced by unix. > > > At 08:33 AM 11/26/01 +0100, Sipke de Wal wrote: > >ZCPR2 & 3 (CP/M extensions) even allowed > >for 32 USER levels (0 .. 31) > > > >Sipke de Wal > >------------------------------------------------- > >http://xgistor.ath.cx > >------------------------------------------------- > > > >----- Original Message ----- > >From: Jim Battle > >To: > >Sent: Monday, November 26, 2001 7:51 AM > >Subject: Re: Inaccessible CP/M programs in Altair32 > > > > > > > Good point -- > > > > > > to flesh it out a bit more, there could be up to 16 different "user" areas > > > on the disk, which go from 0 to 15. Files were tagged with a nibble > > > indicating which user area the file belonged to. > > > > > > To change user areas, type: > > > > > > USER 1 > > > > > > to change to user area 1. By default you are in user 0. Changing to each > > > user area and typing "dir" to see if anything is there is a drag. To find > > > out which, if any, user areas have active files, type: > > > > > > STAT USR: > > > > > > and it responds with something like: > > > > > > Active User: 0 > > > Active Files: 0 1 > > > > > > to indicate you are currently in user 0 area and that user areas 0 and 1 > > > have files in them. > > > (confirmed on *my* CP/M emulator!) > > > > > > > > > At 10:18 PM 11/25/01 -0800, you wrote: > > > >I'm not an expert in Altair CP/M but I do remember one other aspect. It > > > >wasn't password protection but I do remember the concept of differnt user > > > >#'s. It wasn't complicated but somthing like user #'s 1-8. Once you > > > >were that user I seem to remember only the files belonging to that user > > > >showing up... > > > > > > > >Might be a dead end... Just a thought... > > > > > > > >George Rachor > > > > > > > >========================================================= > > > >George L. Rachor Jr. george@rachors.com > > > >Hillsboro, Oregon http://rachors.com > > > >United States of America Amateur Radio : KD7DCX > > > > > > > >On Sun, 25 Nov 2001, Jim Battle wrote: > > > > > > > > > At 10:06 PM 11/25/01 -0500, you wrote: > > > > > >Hi: > > > > > > > > > > > > I'm making progress with using CP/M under Altair32, but I > > have > > > > > > one newbie > > > > > >question since I don't have much experience with CP/M. > > > > > > > > > > > > The disk image I have shows one program in the directory, > > > > > > STAT.COM. Running > > > > > >STAT tells me that there is about 167k free (on a 330k disk). Looking > > > > at the > > > > > >disk image file with a hex file editor reveals that there's more > > > > programs on > > > > > >the disk. > > > > > > > > > > > > I seem to remember something about password protection on > > a CP/M > > > > > > disk. How > > > > > >do I get around this so that I can see what else is on this image? > > > > > > > > > > It isn't password protection. Files can be marked as "system" > > files, so > > > > > that they don't show up when you do a "DIR". I think "STAT *.* > > $DIR" will > > > > > revert all hidden files back to normal. > > > > > > > > > > ----- > > > > > Jim Battle == frustum@pacbell.net > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ----- > > > Jim Battle == frustum@pacbell.net > > > > > ----- > Jim Battle == frustum@pacbell.net > > From jfoust at threedee.com Tue Nov 27 07:49:23 2001 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:11:34 2005 Subject: AM radio music Message-ID: <5.0.0.25.0.20011127074644.03fd0e00@pc> Time for the daily relay of an on-topic (?) post from Slashdot: http://www.erikyyy.de/tempest/ A new twist on an old trick... Someone's written a program that plays music on AM radios by changing the pattern on the video screen. I'm sure it's only a matter of time before someone writes a converter that "plays" sampled audio or even MP3s in this way. - John From Golemancd at aol.com Tue Nov 27 08:00:24 2001 From: Golemancd at aol.com (Golemancd@aol.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:11:34 2005 Subject: 6502 here is the url Message-ID: <67.1d7fc468.2934f678@aol.com> forgot the url or i think i got it wrong From Golemancd at aol.com Tue Nov 27 08:00:57 2001 From: Golemancd at aol.com (Golemancd@aol.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:11:34 2005 Subject: still forgot it Message-ID: <11e.80dbe69.2934f699@aol.com> http://www.free-ip.com/ From knightstalkerbob at netscape.net Tue Nov 27 08:47:18 2001 From: knightstalkerbob at netscape.net (Bob Mason) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:11:34 2005 Subject: AM radio music Message-ID: <5B42DA0D.2321EF73.CF1A260E@netscape.net> If I remember correctly, there was a machine code program printed once to play "music" with a ZX80 using this method! Bob Mason John Foust wrote: > >Time for the daily relay of an on-topic (?) post >from Slashdot: > >http://www.erikyyy.de/tempest/ > >A new twist on an old trick... Someone's written a >program that plays music on AM radios by changing >the pattern on the video screen. > >I'm sure it's only a matter of time before someone >writes a converter that "plays" sampled audio or even >MP3s in this way. > >- John > > -- Bob Mason 2x Amiga 500's, GVP A530 (40mhz 68030/68882, 8meg Fast, SCSI), 1.3/3.1, 2meg Chip, full ECS chipset, EZ135, 1084S, big harddrives, 2.2xCD Gateway Performance 500 Piece 'o Crap, 'ME, 128meg, 20Gig, flatbed. Heathkit H-89A, 64K RAM, hard and soft-sectored floppies, SigmaSoft and Systems 256K RAM Drive/Print Spooler/Graphics board HDOS 2 & CP/M 2.2.03/2.2.04 __________________________________________________________________ Your favorite stores, helpful shopping tools and great gift ideas. Experience the convenience of buying online with Shop@Netscape! http://shopnow.netscape.com/ Get your own FREE, personal Netscape Mail account today at http://webmail.netscape.com/ From edick at idcomm.com Tue Nov 27 09:17:34 2001 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:11:34 2005 Subject: 1771 floppy controller questions References: Message-ID: <000f01c17756$a3fdda20$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> Our local Gateway Electronics store has these in stock, but they actually think they're worth more than the 179x types. Neither is under $10. Fortunately, there's no associated stock issue for me. Dick ----- Original Message ----- From: "Tothwolf" To: Sent: Monday, November 26, 2001 7:36 PM Subject: Re: 1771 floppy controller questions > On Mon, 26 Nov 2001, Richard Erlacher wrote: > > From: "Ethan Dicks" > > > --- Richard Erlacher wrote: > > > > You can get one for cheap if you go down to the thrift store and buy an > > > > old TRS-80. That will cost less than a new WD1771, I'd bet. > > > > > > I'll _trade_ you an old TRS-80 for a WD1771. I haven't seen > > > non-Commodore/Apple/IBM-compatible computers* at the thrift stores > > > in a long, long time. I suspect they don't bother setting them out > > > and just trash them. > > > > Actually, my initial comment was that I'd happily junk a Coco in order > > to get a WD1773. I've got plenty of 1771's, and a few 179x's in my > > parts stock. If I needed a 1771, unlikely, but if it happened, I'd > > simply unplug one from an old "Big Board" SBC. I've got an upgrade to > > a 179x for them anyway. It's been a while since I last saw a Coco, > > and now that I know there's a 1773 in them, I'll snag one first chance > > I get. I've still got TRS-80 doc's lying about from back in the late > > '70's, but I've never owned a TRS-80. > > Well, I now have a pair of brand new WD1771 chips on hand, one for my > model 1, and one spare. A local vendor I use will sell me as many chips as > I need for $5ea. They have both the WD and National versions of the chip. > I imagine they have another 25-40+ chips left in stock, tho a good many of > them need to have their pins straightened. > > -Toth > > From csmith at amdocs.com Tue Nov 27 09:21:35 2001 From: csmith at amdocs.com (Christopher Smith) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:11:34 2005 Subject: Adam Computer Message-ID: <3B55D7F383B0D31197D9009027541CBF1170DED7@cmiexch1.cmi.itds.com> I wonder whether you can get one and high-speed-dub it? :) I may try something like this, myself. I have a "buck rogers" game tape. If I'm lucky, there's more formatting than tape, and it can be copied to another tape -- or to an AIFF file for re-production. Regards, Chris Christopher Smith, Perl Developer Amdocs - Champaign, IL /usr/bin/perl -e ' print((~"\x95\xc4\xe3"^"Just Another Perl Hacker.")."\x08!\n"); ' > -----Original Message----- > From: Gary Hildebrand [mailto:ghldbrd@ccp.com] > Not much . . . except as a curiosity. I did you you should have been > able to run cp/m on it. The trick is getting formatted casette tapes. From csmith at amdocs.com Tue Nov 27 09:38:22 2001 From: csmith at amdocs.com (Christopher Smith) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:11:34 2005 Subject: one shoe down ... Message-ID: <3B55D7F383B0D31197D9009027541CBF1170DED8@cmiexch1.cmi.itds.com> > -----Original Message----- > From: John Allain [mailto:allain@panix.com] > Start? Let's see... > First VMS is renamed to OpenVMS. > Then the entirety of digital is bought out. > Then the VAX line is discontinued. > Then the Alpha Chip is discontinued. > (think this is the chronology. corrections?) Some of the above is more worrying than the rest. It would be interesting, though, to see what would have happened to VAX had it not been discontinued. Perhaps a VAX implementation over an Alpha core, along the lines of recent intel chips. > All joking aside, if PDP/RSTS is still alive, > as I think was said on this list, then add at least http://www.mentec.com/ They seem to make quite a bit of cash from the PDP stuff still. Regards, Chris Christopher Smith, Perl Developer Amdocs - Champaign, IL /usr/bin/perl -e ' print((~"\x95\xc4\xe3"^"Just Another Perl Hacker.")."\x08!\n"); ' From dtwright at uiuc.edu Tue Nov 27 09:40:05 2001 From: dtwright at uiuc.edu (Dan Wright) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:11:34 2005 Subject: IBM 5394-01B 3 1/2" diskette controller Message-ID: <20011127094005.H6311940@uiuc.edu> There are two of these available near where I work, if anyone is interested. They're about 2/3 the size of an IBM 5150 PC and each has 1 3 1/2" drive in it. They also contain disks labeled "IBM 5394 SYSTEM DISKETTE". If anyone's interested, please contact me off-list. There's no guarantee of availability as these things are not actually in my posession, but I doubt they're going anywhere :) You'd pay shipping & handling but that's it. - Dan Wright (dtwright@uiuc.edu) (http://www.uiuc.edu/~dtwright) -] ------------------------------ [-] -------------------------------- [- ``Weave a circle round him thrice, / And close your eyes with holy dread, For he on honeydew hath fed, / and drunk the milk of Paradise.'' Samuel Taylor Coleridge, Kubla Khan -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 229 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20011127/5f860eb3/attachment-0001.bin From dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com Tue Nov 27 09:44:52 2001 From: dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com (Douglas Quebbeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:11:34 2005 Subject: AM radio music Message-ID: <7A9BACCEF0171D4FB77019F5104CDD3722599A@jeffserver.tegjeff.com> > If I remember correctly, there was a machine code program > printed once to play "music" with a ZX80 using this method! Older. Dr. Dobb's Journal, Issue #2... 8080 code, played Daisy and something else, modulating the S-100 INT signal. -dq From dittman at dittman.net Tue Nov 27 09:58:09 2001 From: dittman at dittman.net (Eric Dittman) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:11:34 2005 Subject: one shoe down ... In-Reply-To: <062e01c176fa$1f96e990$de2c67cb@helpdesk> from "Geoff Roberts" at Nov 27, 2001 02:45:18 PM Message-ID: <200111271558.fARFw9h13977@narnia.int.dittman.net> > > You can patch VMS to always return a valid status for a requested product, > > but some products request a bogus license to check if this patch is in > > place. If it is, the product will disable itself. > > Or you can run a little app that correctly creates what appears to be a > valid installed license for what particular products you wish to run, > including the version, number of license units etc. > > I have plenty of VMS licenses, including a few unlimited user non expiring > ones, and a smattering of app licenses, so I don't need it. But I can tell > you that the app in question apparently works with any LDB based product. I've written such an application, and it does work. A license generator is even better, though. > > I don't remember any of DEC's/Compaq's products checking for the patch, > > but I know of at least two third-party products that perform the check. > > They would still work with this particular method. > Just as a matter of interest, which apps? One of them was Multinet. I can't remember the other one. -- Eric Dittman dittman@dittman.net Check out the DEC Enthusiasts Club at http://www.dittman.net/ From dittman at dittman.net Tue Nov 27 09:59:33 2001 From: dittman at dittman.net (Eric Dittman) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:11:34 2005 Subject: one shoe down ... In-Reply-To: <3820E2042B6ED5118DC200D0B78EDC47066251@exc-reo1> from "Carlini, Antonio" at Nov 27, 2001 01:39:11 AM Message-ID: <200111271559.fARFxXx13989@narnia.int.dittman.net> > Never seen this done, never even heard of such an app before. > I know that at least two groups (or people) managed > to reverse engineer licence PAKs. One was even stopped > by DEC through legal action (IIRC). I know of at least two (including me). > > They would still work with this particular method. > > Just as a matter of interest, which apps? > > One of the 3rd party TCP/IP apps was reputed to do this - > possibly Multinet. It's easy enough to check since > there is a logical you can set which causes all > licence requests to be displayed on the operator > console. Which logical? -- Eric Dittman dittman@dittman.net Check out the DEC Enthusiasts Club at http://www.dittman.net/ From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Tue Nov 27 10:16:15 2001 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (Ben Franchuk) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:11:34 2005 Subject: Computer Technician's Handbook (1971) and Computer Automation PDC 808 (1968) References: <003501c1773d$b9d2e0c0$7937fea9@Guerney> Message-ID: <3C03BC4F.E8C9B2B3@jetnet.ab.ca> Phil Guerney wrote: > > At a charity book sale I turned up this book* which promised to "turn an > ordinary electronics technician into a computer maintenance specialist". And > what a wide open field it was - as it says in Chapter 1: > The book used as an example of a "Typical Small Computer" the Computer > Automation PDC 808. The picture of the roughly Altair/Imsai sized box was > actually labelled "PDC 808 Controller". The CCC list says this box was > released in May 1968 (4K of 8-bit core) and there are just a couple of > references to it on the Web I can find, and none from recent years. Well put it on line as I expect then we would know alot more about this computer and book. -- Ben Franchuk --- Pre-historic Cpu's -- www.jetnet.ab.ca/users/bfranchuk/index.html From DAW at yalepress3.unipress.yale.edu Tue Nov 27 10:41:08 2001 From: DAW at yalepress3.unipress.yale.edu (David Woyciesjes) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:11:34 2005 Subject: OT: Moving, must sell.... Message-ID: <9011A52E011ED311B4280004AC1BA615014672DF@yalepress3.unipress.yale.edu> Sorry about the OT, but some of this may be close to 10 years old... Here's the deal. I need to get rid of this stuff, before I move. It's located in New Haven, CT, ZIP 06520-9040. Make an offer. Trade is possible, but only for DEC Alpha, Vax, Sun Sparc, that kind of parts & stuff. If you want the whole pile, I can meet you somewhere, in CT, to hand the stuff to you. Easier than shipping. This will end in one week... Send me an offer, I'll reply to let you know I got it. If there are multiple bids on something, I will do a random draw next Tuesday... Let me know if you have any questions... There may possibly be more similar stuff in the pile too... --- David A Woyciesjes --- C & IS Support Specialist --- Yale University Press --- mailto:david.woyciesjes@yale.edu --- (203) 432-0953 --- ICQ # - 905818 Qty. Description ----------------------------------- 1 DTK Destop case. Dead motherboard. 200W Power Supply 1 486DX2-66 computer - 240MB (?) HDD, 5 1/4 + 3 1/2 flopy drives, modem, no RAM (uses non-parity), 200W PS 1 486DX2-66 computer - 240MB (?) HDD, 5 1/4 + 3 1/2 flopy drives, Network, no RAM (uses non-parity), 200W PS 1 486DX2-66 computer - 240MB (?) HDD, no RAM (uses non-parity), 200W PS 1 DTK Tower case, 250W PS, two 3 1/2 floppies 1 486DX-33 tower - 3 1/2 floppy, video, network, no RAM (uses 30 pin), 200W PS 1 486DX-33 tower - Two 3 1/2 floppies, video, no RAM (uses 30 pin), 250W PS 1 486DX-33 tower - 5 1/4 floppy, video, no RAM (uses 30 pin), 250W PS 7 Loose motherboards, 486 (SX + DX) 2 Loose motherboards, Pentium 75, Uses Parity Memory? 2 HP ScanJet Plus Scanners 1 HP ScanJet Plus Scanner Interface Kit (software + docs) 4 AT plug keyboards 3 Serial port mice 2 PS/2 port mice 3 Loose 3 1/2 floppy drives 1 Loose 5 1/4 floppy drive 2 CD ROMs - 1 is funny panasonic (?) interface, other (Sony) has proprietary interface included 1 Dell replacement floppy drive, instructions, and bay adaptor 4 ISA I/O Card - Floppy, IDE, COM ports, LPT: port... 1 ISA-VLB bus I/O Card - Floppy, IDE, COM ports, LPT: port... 1 Promise IDE ISA slot card 5 ISA modems ( 3 have Mic + Spkr ports) 2 Creative Labs ISA sound cards 1 Aztec/Packard Bell ISA sound/modem combo card 1 FX-3D ISA sound card 3 Cirrus Logic ISA-VLB video cards 5 ISA video cards 1 Intel ISA 8/16 LAN adapter 3 ISA SCSI cards ? 256 kB, & 1 MB non-parity 30-pin memory ? 256 kB, & 1 MB parity 30-pin memory Couple dozen IDE hard drives from 240 to 500 MB From cisin at xenosoft.com Tue Nov 27 11:07:27 2001 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin (XenoSoft)) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:11:34 2005 Subject: 1771 floppy controller questions In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Mon, 26 Nov 2001, Tothwolf wrote: > > > > > someone damaged it when installing the chip. I had never seen a chip with A likely possibility. I have seen occasional cases where a chip will work with a pin bent under making intermittent contact, including one OEM IBM MDA card! > > > I wonder if it would be worth soldering a new pin to what's left of that > > > chip's lead? It looked like it had just corroded off, but with no other > > > signs of moisture, I was kinda puzzled. It is rather unlikely that it would have corroded off, particularly with a gold or gold plated pin. More likely that it was broken during installation, and possibly continued to work for a while with the two broken ends pushing against each other. -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin@xenosoft.com From tothwolf at concentric.net Tue Nov 27 12:00:25 2001 From: tothwolf at concentric.net (Tothwolf) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:11:34 2005 Subject: 1771 floppy controller questions In-Reply-To: <000f01c17756$a3fdda20$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> Message-ID: On Tue, 27 Nov 2001, Richard Erlacher wrote: > From: "Tothwolf" > > > Well, I now have a pair of brand new WD1771 chips on hand, one for my > > model 1, and one spare. A local vendor I use will sell me as many chips as > > I need for $5ea. They have both the WD and National versions of the chip. > > I imagine they have another 25-40+ chips left in stock, tho a good many of > > them need to have their pins straightened. > > Our local Gateway Electronics store has these in stock, but they > actually think they're worth more than the 179x types. Neither is > under $10. Fortunately, there's no associated stock issue for me. Maybe that's where my vendor originally got their price from? They actually thought the 1771 was worth more then $20ea...Thanks to the tip about B.G. Micro selling the chip for $5, my vendor decided to match the price. -Toth From tothwolf at concentric.net Tue Nov 27 12:07:00 2001 From: tothwolf at concentric.net (Tothwolf) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:11:34 2005 Subject: 1771 floppy controller questions In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Tue, 27 Nov 2001, Fred Cisin (XenoSoft) wrote: > On Mon, 26 Nov 2001, Tothwolf wrote: > > > > > > someone damaged it when installing the chip. I had never seen a chip with > > A likely possibility. I have seen occasional cases where a chip will > work with a pin bent under making intermittent contact, including one > OEM IBM MDA card! I've seen this more than a few times myself, even on modern computer boards... > > > > I wonder if it would be worth soldering a new pin to what's left of that > > > > chip's lead? It looked like it had just corroded off, but with no other > > > > signs of moisture, I was kinda puzzled. > > It is rather unlikely that it would have corroded off, particularly > with a gold or gold plated pin. More likely that it was broken during > installation, and possibly continued to work for a while with the two > broken ends pushing against each other. It could be that it was bent under, still in contact with the socket's contact, and due to moisture/thermal stresses, the weakened metal eventually broke. The other half of the lead wasn't in the socket, so this seems to be a likely scenario. -Toth From mcguire at neurotica.com Tue Nov 27 12:20:32 2001 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:11:34 2005 Subject: Adam Computer In-Reply-To: RE: Adam Computer (Christopher Smith) References: <3B55D7F383B0D31197D9009027541CBF1170DED7@cmiexch1.cmi.itds.com> Message-ID: <15363.55664.734796.180444@phaduka.neurotica.com> On November 27, Christopher Smith wrote: > I wonder whether you can get one and high-speed-dub it? :) > > I may try something like this, myself. I have a "buck rogers" game tape. > If I'm lucky, there's more formatting than tape, and it can be copied to > another tape -- or to an AIFF file for re-production. Aren't the Adam's tape drives [relatively] high-speed digital, rather than analog/audio/FSK units? -Dave -- Dave McGuire St. Petersburg, FL From SUPRDAVE at aol.com Tue Nov 27 12:55:16 2001 From: SUPRDAVE at aol.com (SUPRDAVE@aol.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:11:34 2005 Subject: Tandy PC-4 pocket computer Message-ID: Some guy sent me one for free and just got some new batteries in it. Powers on and says READY P0 but can't figure out anything else. Google coming up 404 for usability info on this thing. How do you work this thing? From msell at ontimesupport.com Tue Nov 27 13:45:10 2001 From: msell at ontimesupport.com (Matthew Sell) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:11:34 2005 Subject: Tandy PC-4 pocket computer In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20011127134400.0295d888@127.0.0.1> I wish I could find mine and get it running again. Boy, did I have some fun with that thing..... That really brings back memories..... unfortunately, I don't know where the manual is at to help you..... - Matt At 01:55 PM 11/27/2001 -0500, you wrote: >Some guy sent me one for free and just got some new batteries in it. Powers >on and says READY P0 but can't figure out anything else. Google coming up 404 >for usability info on this thing. How do you work this thing? Matthew Sell Programmer On Time Support, Inc. www.ontimesupport.com (281) 296-6066 Join the Metrology Software discussion group METLIST! http://www.ontimesupport.com/cgi-bin/mojo/mojo.cgi "One World, One Web, One Program" - Microsoft Promotional Ad "Ein Volk, Ein Reich, Ein Fuhrer" - Adolf Hitler Many thanks for this tagline to a fellow RGVAC'er... From csmith at amdocs.com Tue Nov 27 13:51:22 2001 From: csmith at amdocs.com (Christopher Smith) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:11:34 2005 Subject: Adam Computer Message-ID: <3B55D7F383B0D31197D9009027541CBF1170DEE0@cmiexch1.cmi.itds.com> I don't know, actually. I might take a look at it later. Chris Christopher Smith, Perl Developer Amdocs - Champaign, IL /usr/bin/perl -e ' print((~"\x95\xc4\xe3"^"Just Another Perl Hacker.")."\x08!\n"); ' > -----Original Message----- > From: Dave McGuire [mailto:mcguire@neurotica.com] > Aren't the Adam's tape drives [relatively] high-speed > digital, rather > than analog/audio/FSK units? From csmith at amdocs.com Tue Nov 27 13:55:14 2001 From: csmith at amdocs.com (Christopher Smith) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:11:35 2005 Subject: Tandy PC-4 pocket computer Message-ID: <3B55D7F383B0D31197D9009027541CBF1170DEE1@cmiexch1.cmi.itds.com> I have one somewhere. Been a while since I've used it. IIRC, there are a few different modes. One for running programs, one for writing them (in basic), possibly also some more standard calculator modes. I got a sharp portable computer, and liked that a lot better, actually, but my LCD screen cracked :( Basically you find the right mode for what you want to do, and just go. It's a pretty simple machine by common standards. Regards, Chris Christopher Smith, Perl Developer Amdocs - Champaign, IL /usr/bin/perl -e ' print((~"\x95\xc4\xe3"^"Just Another Perl Hacker.")."\x08!\n"); ' > -----Original Message----- > From: SUPRDAVE@aol.com [mailto:SUPRDAVE@aol.com] > Sent: Tuesday, November 27, 2001 12:55 PM > To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org > Subject: Tandy PC-4 pocket computer > > > Some guy sent me one for free and just got some new batteries > in it. Powers > on and says READY P0 but can't figure out anything else. > Google coming up 404 > for usability info on this thing. How do you work this thing? > From Antonio.Carlini at riverstonenet.com Tue Nov 27 14:10:45 2001 From: Antonio.Carlini at riverstonenet.com (Carlini, Antonio) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:11:35 2005 Subject: one shoe down ... Message-ID: <3820E2042B6ED5118DC200D0B78EDC47066255@exc-reo1> >> One of the 3rd party TCP/IP apps was reputed to do this - >> possibly Multinet. It's easy enough to check since >> there is a logical you can set which causes all >> licence requests to be displayed on the operator >> console. > >Which logical? LMF$DISPLAY_OPCOM_MESSAGE It needs to be /EXEC/SYSTEM, otherwise any herbert could overflow your LA36 :-) It was documented by mistake and then had to be explicitly documented as "don't do this" because lots of products go and check for any of the umpteen licences that *might* let them run. It's only a few (non-DEC) products that actually check for non-existant licences and require that the check fail. Antonio From mranalog at home.com Tue Nov 27 14:23:33 2001 From: mranalog at home.com (Doug Coward) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:11:35 2005 Subject: *HELP* - How do I temporarily unsubscribe? Message-ID: <3C03F645.7A45D1D6@home.com> Shaun Stephenson wrote: > Hi all > Quickie which I need a quick reply to - > How do I tempoarily suspend recieving posts from the group? I'm on > holiday for 2 weeks very soon (1.5 days!) and don't fancy a few thousand > posts in my mail when I return. When you leave on vacation set your subscribtion to the DIGEST list. You will receive only one email every 20 or so hours and that way you don't miss anything. I ran into a little trouble myself. It appears that the name of the list is just "classiccmp" and not "classiccmp-list" as the help message suggests. I'm always on the digest list. The name of the digest list is "classiccmp-digest". So I assume to change to digest you need to send a message to majordomo@classiccmp.org and in the body say: unsubscribe classiccmp subscribe classiccmp-digest end Of course then you have to send back the authorization key before you are actually on the digest. Regards, --Doug ========================================= Doug Coward @ home in Poulsbo, WA Analog Computer Online Museum and History Center http://www.best.com/~dcoward/analog ========================================= From DAW at yalepress3.unipress.yale.edu Tue Nov 27 14:52:59 2001 From: DAW at yalepress3.unipress.yale.edu (David Woyciesjes) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:11:35 2005 Subject: one shoe down ... Message-ID: <9011A52E011ED311B4280004AC1BA615014672ED@yalepress3.unipress.yale.edu> Well, I just sent in my registration for the free Basic membership... Haven't _needed_ to be a member before, but things may get better this year.. :-) --- David A Woyciesjes --- C & IS Support Specialist --- Yale University Press --- mailto:david.woyciesjes@yale.edu --- (203) 432-0953 --- ICQ # - 905818 ! -----Original Message----- ! From: Brian Wheeler [mailto:bdwheele@indiana.edu] ! Sent: Monday, November 26, 2001 3:38 PM ! To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org ! Subject: Re: one shoe down ... ! ! ! On Mon, 2001-11-26 at 14:03, Chuck McManis wrote: ! > Well the "new" Encompass site is updated and guess what, no ! "free DECUS" ! > memberships anymore, now its $79.99 "early bird special" ! and $99.99 regular ! > membership. No doubt when they become HP it will be even ! more irrelevant to ! > the cause of preserving old DEC gear. I sure hope they ! offer lifetime VAX ! > licenses at some point. ! > ! > --Chuck ! ! ! Are you sure? Looking at the "i want to re-enlist form" at ! https://safe2.sba.com/encompass/MemberForm.cfm ! ! It only looks like money is required if you're going to become a ! sustaining member... ! ! Of course there is a monster note on the page before: ! "Join or Renew Today - BASIC and SUSTAINING membership will only be ! available until December 31, 2001!" ! ! Brian ! From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Nov 27 15:15:37 2001 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:11:35 2005 Subject: Tandy PC-4 pocket computer In-Reply-To: from "SUPRDAVE@aol.com" at Nov 27, 1 01:55:16 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1484 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20011127/11077b16/attachment-0001.ksh From vcf at vintage.org Tue Nov 27 16:20:01 2001 From: vcf at vintage.org (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:11:35 2005 Subject: Apple ][ joystick? Message-ID: Who was the fellow looking for an Apple ][ joystick? I have one for you. E-mail me privately. Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org * Old computing resources for business and academia at www.VintageTech.com * From fauradon at frontiernet.net Tue Nov 27 23:33:31 2001 From: fauradon at frontiernet.net (Sue & Francois) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:11:35 2005 Subject: Tandy PC-4 pocket computer References: Message-ID: <001501c177ce$3747b860$0264640a@frontiernet.net> Did anybody mention that this particular machine is none other than a rebaged CASIO PB-100? Maybe a google on that will bring a load of information. Most of the links I have are in French but I'm sure some will turn out in English. Hope this helps Francois PS: Next time tell "some guy" to send it MY way :) I've been looking for one for a long time. The PB100 was my first pocket computer and I miss it ;( ----- Original Message ----- From: To: Sent: Tuesday, November 27, 2001 10:55 AM Subject: Tandy PC-4 pocket computer > Some guy sent me one for free and just got some new batteries in it. Powers > on and says READY P0 but can't figure out anything else. Google coming up 404 > for usability info on this thing. How do you work this thing? > From MTPro at aol.com Tue Nov 27 22:03:12 2001 From: MTPro at aol.com (MTPro@aol.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:11:35 2005 Subject: Is it a Lisa or Mac XL?! Message-ID: <8d.ff46b05.2935bc00@aol.com> I've been following all of the great Lisa discussion. People get very messed up with the "what's a Lisa 2 and what's a Mac XL" criteria. If the machine in question has not been adulterated with a ROM upgrade or screen modification, etc., it can run the Lisa OS - any Lisa 2 or Mac XL. All Mac XLs are Lisa 2s, Apple merely renamed them in 1985. The "plain" Lisa 2 is the same as the Lisa 2/5, just with no external 5 mb Profile hard drive. It was generally not sold without a hard drive, as it was basically useless without one. Here's the breakdown on differences per the Lisa/Macintosh XL Do-it-yourself Guide - Lisa 2: The Lisa 2 has one 3.5-inch 400K disk drive, different disk drive controller circuitry, and a redesigned front panel to accommodate the single 3.5-inch drive opening. A 400K floppy controller, labeled the "Lisa Lite Adapter," is mounted inside the disk drive cage. The System I/0 board is socketed for an AMD 9512 arithmetic processor. It has nickel-cadmium battery backup for the real time clock. One 512K memory board is standard. The mother board has a mouse connector, two serial connectors, and an external parallel connector. The power supply is rated 1.2 A. Lisa 2/10: The Lisa 2/10 has a completely different motherboard. The mouse connector is different. There's no external parallel connector on the back of the computer. Instead, there's an internal parallel connector and a 10MB internal I hard drive. An interrupt switch has been added. The system I/0 board is also different. There's no socket for the AMD 9512 coprocessor. There's no nickel-cadmium battery backup for the real time clock. The disk drive controller is different. An extra chip on the 1/0 board replaces the Lisa Lite Adapter which was formerly located in the drive cage. The disk drive cabling is different. The wiring harness is different. The power supply is different. One megabyte of RAM is standard. If you have Lisa OS disks, a 10MB internal hard drive, no Lisa Lite card, no external parallel connector, and a 1.8-A 110/220V power supply, yours is at least a Lisa 2/10. Macintosh XL: The Macintosh XL is exactly the same as a Lisa 2/10. Only the sticker on the box, the operating system, and the instruction manuals are different. Instead of Lisa OS, the bundled OS is Macintosh System software and MacWorks XL, a Lisa program which allows 64K Macintosh ROM emulation. If you have MacWorks XL instead of Lisa OS disks, a 10MB internal hard drive, no Lisa Lite card, and a 1.8-A power supply, yours is probably a MacintoshXL. A lot of people confuse the hardware differences as coming about due to the renaming, but this was not the case. When Sun Remarketing in Logan, Utah bought up the bulk of remaining "Mac XLs" from Apple they slowly began tweaking them to make them more Mac-like. My first Lisa which I bought from them in December 1989 for $1095 had started life as a Lisa 2/5. Sun Remarketing had installed the screen modification kit (giving it square pixels like a Mac instead of it's native rectangular ones), Mac Plus 128k ROMs to support the installed 800k drive and a Sun Remarketing installed internal 20 mb hard drive. The hard drive was interesting because it was installed internally, yet it's cable extended under the rear cage cover to attach to the external parallel port. Ok, ok, I go on and on. Interesting stuff eh? Best, David Greelish Publisher Classic Computing Press www.classiccomputing.com From vcf at vintage.org Tue Nov 27 22:12:51 2001 From: vcf at vintage.org (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:11:35 2005 Subject: Wanted: Tiger Learning Computer Message-ID: I'm wanting to buy a Tiger Learning Computer from anyone who may have one they don't want. This was the kid computer released during Christmas of 1996 but only sold in limited numbers in the JC Penney 1996 Christmas catalog. It was Apple ][ compatible--it basically had enhanced Apple //e ROMs and used Flash ROM cards as an emulated Disk ][ drive. It had Appleworks built-in. Very nifty. I'm also open to trades. Any got one? This is my biggest want currently. :) Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org * Old computing resources for business and academia at www.VintageTech.com * From spectre at stockholm.ptloma.edu Tue Nov 27 22:35:35 2001 From: spectre at stockholm.ptloma.edu (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:11:35 2005 Subject: Tandy PC-4 pocket computer In-Reply-To: <001501c177ce$3747b860$0264640a@frontiernet.net> from Sue & Francois at "Nov 27, 1 09:33:31 pm" Message-ID: <200111280435.UAA09228@stockholm.ptloma.edu> > Did anybody mention that this particular machine is none other than a > rebaged CASIO PB-100? True, true. I have the Radio Shack PC-4 service manual that after heroic effort by a friend of mine was scanned, and I turned it into PDF. However, it's very, very big and not very helpful. I like the PC-4. I used one for biology calculations a couple years back much to the amusement of the lab's primary investigator, who was impressed that you could do that much with 1.5K (I have the RAM expansion pack). I also own a PC-3, but the PC-4's segmented programming space is much handier. -- ----------------------------- personal page: http://www.armory.com/~spectre/ -- Cameron Kaiser, Point Loma Nazarene University * ckaiser@stockholm.ptloma.edu -- "The ants are my friends/They're blowing in the wind" ---------------------- From swtpc6800 at home.com Tue Nov 27 23:42:06 2001 From: swtpc6800 at home.com (Michael Holley) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:11:35 2005 Subject: AM radio music References: <7A9BACCEF0171D4FB77019F5104CDD3722599A@jeffserver.tegjeff.com> Message-ID: <002701c177cf$6a785090$9865fea9@downstairs> I toggled Daisy into a Imsai 8080, probably from Dr. Dobbs. I then wrote a music "compiler" in BASIC for my SWTPC 6800. You could enter three octives of notes and it would generate a data table for the song. I drove the output buffers on the parallel port. You just had to put your radio near the computer. These systems made so much radio interferance the FCC had to come out with standards. I remember an FCC report the mentioned the SWTPC 6800 as one of the offenders. (The Apple II switching power supply was a radio transmitter that also put out 5 volts.) In the early 1990s I used a Xilinx FPGA demo board and made a Music circuit chip that blinked the LEDs at 1 Mhz. The one chip, battery operated board would transmit for several feet. Being a RAM based FPGA, you could download song after song. (I converted my music compiler from BASIC to C.) ----------------------------------------------- Michael Holley http://www.swtpc.com/mholley/index.html ----------------------------------------------- ----- Original Message ----- From: "Douglas Quebbeman" To: Sent: Tuesday, November 27, 2001 7:44 AM Subject: RE: AM radio music > > If I remember correctly, there was a machine code program > > printed once to play "music" with a ZX80 using this method! > > Older. Dr. Dobb's Journal, Issue #2... 8080 code, played > Daisy and something else, modulating the S-100 INT signal. > > -dq > > From dlinder at uiuc.edu Wed Nov 28 00:12:00 2001 From: dlinder at uiuc.edu (Dan Linder) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:11:35 2005 Subject: opensource cp/m? Message-ID: this might be interesting for the cp/m people out there, though they probably already know all about it: http://slashdot.org/articles/01/11/27/1931237.shtml http://www.theregister.co.uk/content/4/23010.html http://www.newsforge.com/article.pl?sid=01/11/23/171225 -- Dan Linder / dlinder @ uiuc.edu Graduate Student, College of Engineering, Dept. of Computer Science - Dept. of Computer Science Teaching Assistant - DRES Computer Accessibility Researcher From sieler at allegro.com Wed Nov 28 00:57:33 2001 From: sieler at allegro.com (Stan Sieler) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:11:35 2005 Subject: Wanted: Tiger Learning Computer In-Reply-To: from "Vintage Computer Festival" at Nov 27, 2001 08:12:51 PM Message-ID: <200111280657.WAA30550@opus.allegro.com> Re: > I'm wanting to buy a Tiger Learning Computer from anyone who may have one > they don't want. This was the kid computer released during Christmas of > 1996 but only sold in limited numbers in the JC Penney 1996 Christmas > catalog. It was Apple ][ compatible--it basically had enhanced Apple //e > ROMs and used Flash ROM cards as an emulated Disk ][ drive. It had > Appleworks built-in. Very nifty. I've been searching for one, too! Any ideas on how to identify it? There appear to be a number of toys called "Tiger Learning Computer", including one with a Barney theme :( > This is my biggest want currently. Ditto, well, except for an Ampere laptop (APL) and a 5100 (with APL). :) -- Stan Sieler sieler@allegro.com www.allegro.com/sieler/wanted/index.html www.sieler.com From celt at chisp.net Wed Nov 28 01:14:49 2001 From: celt at chisp.net (Michael Maginnis) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:11:35 2005 Subject: Tandy PC-4 pocket computer References: <001501c177ce$3747b860$0264640a@frontiernet.net> Message-ID: <3C048EE9.3020201@chisp.net> > PS: Next time tell "some guy" to send it MY way :) I've been looking for one > for a long time. The PB100 was my first pocket computer and I miss it ;( > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: > To: > Sent: Tuesday, November 27, 2001 10:55 AM > Subject: Tandy PC-4 pocket computer > The local used PC shop had one of these in their display case not too long ago, but the $400 asking price was a bit more than I could stomach. This is the same place that tried to sell me a PET 2001-8 for $2000. I should have kept the one I used to carry around in high school... The PC-4, not the PET... Mike The Apple II Repository http://tarnover.org/ From jhellige at earthlink.net Wed Nov 28 04:07:55 2001 From: jhellige at earthlink.net (Jeff Hellige) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:11:35 2005 Subject: Is it a Lisa or Mac XL?! In-Reply-To: <8d.ff46b05.2935bc00@aol.com> References: <8d.ff46b05.2935bc00@aol.com> Message-ID: >A lot of people confuse the hardware differences as coming about due to the >renaming, but this was not the case. When Sun Remarketing in Logan, Utah >bought up the bulk of remaining "Mac XLs" from Apple they slowly began >tweaking them to make them more Mac-like. My first Lisa which I bought from >them in December 1989 for $1095 had started life as a Lisa 2/5. Sun >Remarketing had installed the screen modification kit (giving it square >pixels like a Mac instead of it's native rectangular ones), Mac Plus 128k >ROMs to support the installed 800k drive and a Sun Remarketing installed >internal 20 mb hard drive. The hard drive was interesting because it was >installed internally, yet it's cable extended under the rear cage cover to >attach to the external parallel port. Ok, ok, I go on and on. Interesting >stuff eh? Best, Thanks for taking the time to type all of that. Now if only someone would come up with a list cross-referencing the model#'s to the various machines. Mine is basically identical to the one you list above as the one you bought from Sun, including the wierd 20MB internal drive, plus the addition of the SCSI card. I took my Profile apart the other night and any hopes of swapping another drive in there were dashed since the ST506 has an Apple-specific board on it. Jeff -- Home of the TRS-80 Model 2000 FAQ File http://www.cchaven.com http://www.geocities.com/siliconvalley/lakes/6757 From dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com Wed Nov 28 07:08:40 2001 From: dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com (Douglas Quebbeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:11:35 2005 Subject: Is it a Lisa or Mac XL?! Message-ID: <7A9BACCEF0171D4FB77019F5104CDD372259AA@jeffserver.tegjeff.com> > I took my Profile apart the other night and any hopes of > swapping another drive in there were dashed since the ST506 has an > Apple-specific board on it. isn't the apple-specific board piggy-backed onto the board that's there in a non-apple version of the drive? -dq From curt at atari-history.com Wed Nov 28 08:04:46 2001 From: curt at atari-history.com (Curt Vendel) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:11:35 2005 Subject: Is it a Lisa or Mac XL?! References: <8d.ff46b05.2935bc00@aol.com> Message-ID: <003c01c17815$a41524e0$38b1ff0a@cvendel> Jeff, The ST506 is a standard MFM drive, you can still find drives like the ST225 to replace it, mind you its only 20MB's, not much, but it bets the 5MB drive in the Profile. Interesting you mentioned the screen mod, I didn't know about that, there used to be a guy in Queens, NY who dealt only in Lisa/Mac XL's and I was given a Lisa 2/5 by a friend sometime in 88-89, it had the 5.25" front plate but no drives inside and I had bought from this guy in Queens a lot of the upgrades, but was never aware of a screen upgrade, I always liked the bigger screen anyway. Curt ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jeff Hellige" To: Sent: Wednesday, November 28, 2001 5:07 AM Subject: Re: Is it a Lisa or Mac XL?! > >A lot of people confuse the hardware differences as coming about due to the > >renaming, but this was not the case. When Sun Remarketing in Logan, Utah > >bought up the bulk of remaining "Mac XLs" from Apple they slowly began > >tweaking them to make them more Mac-like. My first Lisa which I bought from > >them in December 1989 for $1095 had started life as a Lisa 2/5. Sun > >Remarketing had installed the screen modification kit (giving it square > >pixels like a Mac instead of it's native rectangular ones), Mac Plus 128k > >ROMs to support the installed 800k drive and a Sun Remarketing installed > >internal 20 mb hard drive. The hard drive was interesting because it was > >installed internally, yet it's cable extended under the rear cage cover to > >attach to the external parallel port. Ok, ok, I go on and on. Interesting > >stuff eh? Best, > > Thanks for taking the time to type all of that. Now if only > someone would come up with a list cross-referencing the model#'s to > the various machines. Mine is basically identical to the one you > list above as the one you bought from Sun, including the wierd 20MB > internal drive, plus the addition of the SCSI card. > > I took my Profile apart the other night and any hopes of > swapping another drive in there were dashed since the ST506 has an > Apple-specific board on it. > > Jeff > -- > Home of the TRS-80 Model 2000 FAQ File > http://www.cchaven.com > http://www.geocities.com/siliconvalley/lakes/6757 > From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Wed Nov 28 08:08:51 2001 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (Allison) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:11:35 2005 Subject: S. Ring has badtrans virus Message-ID: <000401c17816$35f13b60$6b7b7b7b@ajp> If you see a mail from S.RING on the list delete it, the attachment has badtrans virus. Allison From fauradon at frontiernet.net Wed Nov 28 10:05:28 2001 From: fauradon at frontiernet.net (Sue & Francois) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:11:35 2005 Subject: Wanted: Tiger Learning Computer References: Message-ID: <011501c17826$7fb2d000$0264640a@frontiernet.net> These were also sold at Toys R (backward) Us here in MN, I remember seeing them and thinking that they probably would not sell and I'd be able to pick one up cheap,. Then I forgot and they were gone. Francois > I'm wanting to buy a Tiger Learning Computer from anyone who may have one From Robert_Feldman at jdedwards.com Wed Nov 28 08:35:57 2001 From: Robert_Feldman at jdedwards.com (Feldman, Robert) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:11:35 2005 Subject: FYI: Otrona 2001 on ebay Message-ID: You don't see many of these around. It was a more MS-DOS compatible model, with a larger screen than the Attache, that came out just before Otrona went under. So far, it's bid is under $40. http://cgi.ebay.com/aw-cgi/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=1302397837 BTW, it's not my auction. I have an Attache 8:16, but I don't plan to bid on the 2001. Bob From jpl15 at panix.com Wed Nov 28 08:53:22 2001 From: jpl15 at panix.com (John Lawson) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:11:35 2005 Subject: S. Ring has badtrans virus In-Reply-To: <000401c17816$35f13b60$6b7b7b7b@ajp> Message-ID: It was sent to me 'personally', ie not as a classiccmp post. Since it was an unsolicited attachment from an unacknowledged source, it filed it in /dev/nul. just FYI if any listmembers get the thing... Cheerz John From jhellige at earthlink.net Wed Nov 28 08:25:23 2001 From: jhellige at earthlink.net (Jeff Hellige) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:11:35 2005 Subject: S. Ring has badtrans virus In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <01Nov28.103740est.119201@gateway.mediacen.navy.mil> > It was sent to me 'personally', ie not as a classiccmp post. Since it >was an unsolicited attachment from an unacknowledged source, it filed it >in /dev/nul. I got it as well but followed the same logic you did. I also received the virus once over the weekend as well, but it wasn't from a list subscriber. I don't use Outlook on my Mac's and don't have autopreview turned on when I'm using it under NT. Jeff -- Home of the TRS-80 Model 2000 FAQ File http://www.cchaven.com http://www.geocities.com/siliconvalley/lakes/6757 From DAW at yalepress3.unipress.yale.edu Wed Nov 28 10:06:31 2001 From: DAW at yalepress3.unipress.yale.edu (David Woyciesjes) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:11:35 2005 Subject: S. Ring has badtrans virus Message-ID: <9011A52E011ED311B4280004AC1BA615014672F1@yalepress3.unipress.yale.edu> Well, I'm running Norton Corporate Edition, with Outlook 2000, and it scans my e-mail as it comes in, before I even read the message! Works out nice :-) --- David A Woyciesjes --- C & IS Support Specialist --- Yale University Press --- mailto:david.woyciesjes@yale.edu --- (203) 432-0953 --- ICQ # - 905818 ! -----Original Message----- ! From: Jeff Hellige [mailto:jhellige@earthlink.net] ! Sent: Wednesday, November 28, 2001 9:25 AM ! To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org ! Subject: Re: S. Ring has badtrans virus ! ! ! > It was sent to me 'personally', ie not as a classiccmp ! post. Since it ! >was an unsolicited attachment from an unacknowledged source, ! it filed it ! >in /dev/nul. ! ! I got it as well but followed the same logic you did. I also ! received the virus once over the weekend as well, but it wasn't from ! a list subscriber. I don't use Outlook on my Mac's and don't have ! autopreview turned on when I'm using it under NT. ! ! Jeff ! -- ! Home of the TRS-80 Model 2000 FAQ File ! http://www.cchaven.com ! http://www.geocities.com/siliconvalley/lakes/6757 ! From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Wed Nov 28 10:15:01 2001 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (Allison) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:11:35 2005 Subject: S. Ring has badtrans virus Message-ID: <001101c17827$d6239b80$6b7b7b7b@ajp> It drove me nuts as the work sys is W95 and outlookdistress. I wanted to summary delete it but Norton antivirus would pitch a fit if I even touched the mail. I have the outlook features turned off but the antivirus is too efficient. only solution was to isolate the machine just in case(pull net connection, drop modem) and purge mail. What a PITA! Wishing I used VMS at work or at least linux. Allison -----Original Message----- From: Jeff Hellige To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org Date: Wednesday, November 28, 2001 10:52 AM Subject: Re: S. Ring has badtrans virus >> It was sent to me 'personally', ie not as a classiccmp post. Since it >>was an unsolicited attachment from an unacknowledged source, it filed it >>in /dev/nul. > > I got it as well but followed the same logic you did. I also >received the virus once over the weekend as well, but it wasn't from >a list subscriber. I don't use Outlook on my Mac's and don't have >autopreview turned on when I'm using it under NT. > > Jeff >-- > Home of the TRS-80 Model 2000 FAQ File > http://www.cchaven.com > http://www.geocities.com/siliconvalley/lakes/6757 From csmith at amdocs.com Wed Nov 28 10:15:58 2001 From: csmith at amdocs.com (Christopher Smith) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:11:35 2005 Subject: Is it a Lisa or Mac XL?! Message-ID: <3B55D7F383B0D31197D9009027541CBF1170DEEB@cmiexch1.cmi.itds.com> > -----Original Message----- > From: MTPro@aol.com [mailto:MTPro@aol.com] > question has not been adulterated with a ROM upgrade or > screen modification, > etc., it can run the Lisa OS - any Lisa 2 or Mac XL. All Mac > XLs are Lisa 2s, Well, the screen-mod isn't necessarily a show-stopper. Lisa OS really doesn't care, from my limited experience with just the kind of Mac XL you speak of at the end of this post. You can pull the glue off of a couple of pots in the monitor (clearly labeled at that, IIRC), and adjust the aspect ratio of the screen back to normal Lisa style. > Macintosh XL: The Macintosh XL is exactly the same as a Lisa > 2/10. Only the > sticker on the box, the operating system, and the instruction > manuals are > different. Instead of Lisa OS, the bundled OS is Macintosh > System software > and MacWorks XL, a Lisa program which allows 64K Macintosh > ROM emulation. If > you have MacWorks XL instead of Lisa OS disks, a 10MB > internal hard drive, no > Lisa Lite card, and a 1.8-A power supply, yours is probably a > MacintoshXL. It should be noted here that the Macintosh system software is arguably not the operating system in this case. (MacWorks is... If I understand correctly it's slightly more of an emulation than simply providing the toolbox ROM.) > them in December 1989 for $1095 had started life as a Lisa 2/5. Sun > Remarketing had installed the screen modification kit (giving > it square > pixels like a Mac instead of it's native rectangular ones), Again, I think "installed the screen modification kit" might be giving them too much credit, since it seemed with mine that they only did some pot tweaking. :) > Mac Plus 128k > ROMs to support the installed 800k drive and a Sun > Remarketing installed Now this is interesting. As I mentioned in a previous post, they had something in mind called an "XLerator," which seemed to be a daughterboard kind of setup that took the place of the entire 68k cpu, and replaced it with a conglomeration of Mac junk. :) (No offense to Mac people, but I wanted a Lisa, and this prevented Lisa OS from booting ;) I may at some point try to get that CPU board working (by which I mean, actually booting Lisa OS) again. Regards, Chris Christopher Smith, Perl Developer Amdocs - Champaign, IL /usr/bin/perl -e ' print((~"\x95\xc4\xe3"^"Just Another Perl Hacker.")."\x08!\n"); ' From csmith at amdocs.com Wed Nov 28 10:22:19 2001 From: csmith at amdocs.com (Christopher Smith) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:11:35 2005 Subject: Is it a Lisa or Mac XL?! Message-ID: <3B55D7F383B0D31197D9009027541CBF1170DEEC@cmiexch1.cmi.itds.com> > -----Original Message----- > From: Jeff Hellige [mailto:jhellige@earthlink.net] > I took my Profile apart the other night and any hopes of > swapping another drive in there were dashed since the ST506 has an > Apple-specific board on it. Tried that, myself -- just as a curiosity. As you said, it's kind of weird in there. I wonder, though, whether there's an easier way to do it. Maybe the HD adaptors that came with the newer ones (for internal disks) were standard enough to have something else plugged in. (haven't checked) It would be interesting to have a Maxtor in a Lisa. They were about 150 megabytes. Better if the SCSI port actually could be used to boot the machine. Regards, Chris Christopher Smith, Perl Developer Amdocs - Champaign, IL /usr/bin/perl -e ' print((~"\x95\xc4\xe3"^"Just Another Perl Hacker.")."\x08!\n"); ' From bpope at wordstock.com Wed Nov 28 10:48:10 2001 From: bpope at wordstock.com (Bryan Pope) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:11:35 2005 Subject: S. Ring has badtrans virus In-Reply-To: <9011A52E011ED311B4280004AC1BA615014672F1@yalepress3.unipress.yale.edu> from "David Woyciesjes" at Nov 28, 01 11:06:31 am Message-ID: <200111281648.LAA07124@wordstock.com> I am assuming NCE include Norton Anti-Virus.. On the Norton Utilities Systemworks AV is installed to automatically scan your email for virii... But the way it does it is *very* questionable.. The email is routed to one of their servers before being routed to you inbox. I only happened to find this out *after* everything was installed because I also use Zone Alarm. I then found out that the install had modified Outlook. Nowhere in the install was I told that this was happening!!! Bryan > > Well, I'm running Norton Corporate Edition, with Outlook 2000, and it scans > my e-mail as it comes in, before I even read the message! Works out nice :-) From jss at subatomix.com Wed Nov 28 11:08:02 2001 From: jss at subatomix.com (Jeffrey S. Sharp) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:11:35 2005 Subject: S. Ring has badtrans virus In-Reply-To: <9011A52E011ED311B4280004AC1BA615014672F1@yalepress3.unipress.yale.edu> Message-ID: <20011128110541.S41496-100000@lepton.subatomix.com> On Wed, 28 Nov 2001, David Woyciesjes wrote: > Well, I'm running Norton Corporate Edition, with Outlook 2000, and it > scans my e-mail as it comes in, before I even read the message! Works > out nice :-) Was it prescient enough to detect Badtrans.b? If Badtrans.b is a new virus, it almost sounds fishy that NAV *already* knew how to discover it. -- Jeffrey S. Sharp jss@subatomix.com From vcf at vintage.org Wed Nov 28 11:28:45 2001 From: vcf at vintage.org (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:11:35 2005 Subject: Spam from _sring@uslink.net? Message-ID: Looks like the Classiccmp archives may have been broached by some lame spammer. Has anyone else gotten an audio file from S. Ring <_sring@uslink.net> with an audio file attachment, bearing the subject of an old CC message? Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org * Old computing resources for business and academia at www.VintageTech.com * From msell at ontimesupport.com Wed Nov 28 11:38:43 2001 From: msell at ontimesupport.com (Matthew Sell) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:11:35 2005 Subject: S. Ring has badtrans virus In-Reply-To: <200111281648.LAA07124@wordstock.com> References: <9011A52E011ED311B4280004AC1BA615014672F1@yalepress3.unipress.yale.edu> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20011128113403.025f3b30@127.0.0.1> Bryan, Are you sure it is routed to *their* servers? We use Norton AV 2000 and it uses a local "proxy" that filters incoming mail through 127.0.0.1 (localhost) before the mail application can do harm with it. During install, Norton AV (at least our version) modifies the mail reader so that it uses localhost as the mail server, and this Norton mail proxy then actually gets the mail and passes it to the mail reader. This mail does not pass through or utilize any Norton servers, just a local proxy installed on your computer. - Matt At 11:48 AM 11/28/2001 -0500, you wrote: >I am assuming NCE include Norton Anti-Virus.. On the Norton Utilities >Systemworks AV is installed to automatically scan your email for virii... >But the way it does it is *very* questionable.. The email is routed to one >of their servers before being routed to you inbox. > >I only happened to find this out *after* everything was installed because I >also use Zone Alarm. I then found out that the install had modified Outlook. >Nowhere in the install was I told that this was happening!!! > >Bryan > > > > > > > Well, I'm running Norton Corporate Edition, with Outlook 2000, and it scans > > my e-mail as it comes in, before I even read the message! Works out > nice :-) Matthew Sell Programmer On Time Support, Inc. www.ontimesupport.com (281) 296-6066 Join the Metrology Software discussion group METLIST! http://www.ontimesupport.com/cgi-bin/mojo/mojo.cgi "One World, One Web, One Program" - Microsoft Promotional Ad "Ein Volk, Ein Reich, Ein Fuhrer" - Adolf Hitler Many thanks for this tagline to a fellow RGVAC'er... From dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com Wed Nov 28 11:38:38 2001 From: dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com (Douglas Quebbeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:11:35 2005 Subject: S. Ring has badtrans virus Message-ID: <7A9BACCEF0171D4FB77019F5104CDD372259B4@jeffserver.tegjeff.com> > I am assuming NCE include Norton Anti-Virus.. On the Norton Utilities > Systemworks AV is installed to automatically scan your email for virii... > But the way it does it is *very* questionable.. The email is routed to one > of their servers before being routed to you inbox. > > I only happened to find this out *after* everything was installed because I > also use Zone Alarm. I then found out that the install had modified Outlook. > Nowhere in the install was I told that this was happening!!! Network Associates' Groupshield Exchange and Computer Associates' eTrust InoculateIT! Exchange Option scan the mail as it comes in to the server and what gets put in the inbox has been sanitized... except, apparantly, the BADTRANS virus. Fortunately, the client- side realtime scanner caught it... -dq From curt at atari-history.com Wed Nov 28 11:40:06 2001 From: curt at atari-history.com (Curt Vendel) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:11:35 2005 Subject: S. Ring has badtrans virus References: Message-ID: <000901c17833$b99c54a0$0a00a8c0@cvendel> Yeah, I got it too, I never open anything unless I know who the person is and even then I always look at the attachment first before opening it. The file being a virus was pretty apparent when I saw the extension .doc.pif which is a fairly classic sign of some form of virus like the Nimda/sadmind. Curt ----- Original Message ----- From: "John Lawson" To: Sent: Wednesday, November 28, 2001 9:53 AM Subject: Re: S. Ring has badtrans virus > > > It was sent to me 'personally', ie not as a classiccmp post. Since it > was an unsolicited attachment from an unacknowledged source, it filed it > in /dev/nul. > > just FYI if any listmembers get the thing... > > > Cheerz > > John > > > From DAW at yalepress3.unipress.yale.edu Wed Nov 28 12:00:21 2001 From: DAW at yalepress3.unipress.yale.edu (David Woyciesjes) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:11:35 2005 Subject: S. Ring has badtrans virus Message-ID: <9011A52E011ED311B4280004AC1BA615014672F4@yalepress3.unipress.yale.edu> ! > Well, I'm running Norton Corporate Edition, with Outlook ! > 2000, and it scans my e-mail as it comes in, before I ! > even read the message! Works out nice :-) ! I am assuming NCE include Norton Anti-Virus... Actually it's the Corporate Edition of Norton Anti-Virus. ! ...On the Norton Utilities Systemworks AV is installed to ! automatically scan your email for virii... Yeah, I remember that option from that memory-hog version... ! ...But the way it does it is *very* questionable. The email ! is routed to one of their servers before being routed to you ! inbox... NCE doesn't work it that way, well at least in our setup. We install it as an unmanaged system (no central Norton server here.) Basically a standalone install. We could have a central server here to 'manage' the copies of NCE installed on the clients, maybe that's what you're referring to. Symantec hijacking your e-mail sounds wierd, and in-efficient. ! ...I only happened to find this out *after* everything was ! installed because I also use Zone Alarm... ! I then found out that the install had modified Outlook. ! Nowhere in the install was I told that this was happening!!! Yeah, the install has to modify Outlook somewhat. It gives the option to install a plug-in, to allow it to scan the messages as they come in. I much prefer it that way, since I leave Outlook open all day, and recieve at _least_ 200 messages a day. Yes, vigilance (and a different e-mail program) are my preferred method, but work here pretty much requires the use of Outlook. It's actually a nice program, if it weren't for the plentiful virus 'features'. --- David A Woyciesjes --- C & IS Support Specialist --- Yale University Press --- mailto:david.woyciesjes@yale.edu --- (203) 432-0953 --- ICQ # - 905818 From cisin at xenosoft.com Wed Nov 28 11:55:18 2001 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin (XenoSoft)) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:11:35 2005 Subject: Spam from _sring@uslink.net? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Wed, 28 Nov 2001, Vintage Computer Festival wrote: > Looks like the Classiccmp archives may have been broached by some lame > spammer. Has anyone else gotten an audio file from S. Ring > <_sring@uslink.net> with an audio file attachment, bearing the subject of > an old CC message? THAT AIn'T NO AUDIO FILE!!!!! Take a closer look at the extension! AFTER the MP3, JPG, DOC whatever extension, it has ANOTHER extension of .SCR or .PIF. THAT is the BADTRANS virus. -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin@xenosoft.com From DAW at yalepress3.unipress.yale.edu Wed Nov 28 12:03:08 2001 From: DAW at yalepress3.unipress.yale.edu (David Woyciesjes) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:11:35 2005 Subject: S. Ring has badtrans virus Message-ID: <9011A52E011ED311B4280004AC1BA615014672F5@yalepress3.unipress.yale.edu> Well, my Norton is set to automatically update every week. Also, as soon as I heard about it (badtrans) on Tuesday morning (when I came back from being out since last wednesday) I updated the latest virus definitions, to the 11/24 version. Not sure if earlier defs knew about it... --- David A Woyciesjes --- C & IS Support Specialist --- Yale University Press --- mailto:david.woyciesjes@yale.edu --- (203) 432-0953 --- ICQ # - 905818 ! -----Original Message----- ! From: Jeffrey S. Sharp [mailto:jss@subatomix.com] ! Sent: Wednesday, November 28, 2001 12:08 PM ! To: 'classiccmp@classiccmp.org' ! Subject: RE: S. Ring has badtrans virus ! ! ! On Wed, 28 Nov 2001, David Woyciesjes wrote: ! ! > Well, I'm running Norton Corporate Edition, with Outlook ! 2000, and it ! > scans my e-mail as it comes in, before I even read the ! message! Works ! > out nice :-) ! ! Was it prescient enough to detect Badtrans.b? If Badtrans.b is a new ! virus, it almost sounds fishy that NAV *already* knew how to ! discover it. ! ! -- ! Jeffrey S. Sharp ! jss@subatomix.com ! From bpope at wordstock.com Wed Nov 28 12:04:07 2001 From: bpope at wordstock.com (Bryan Pope) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:11:35 2005 Subject: Spam from _sring@uslink.net? In-Reply-To: from "Vintage Computer Festival" at Nov 28, 01 09:28:45 am Message-ID: <200111281804.NAA26433@wordstock.com> Sellam, I received that message.. Bryan Pope > > > Looks like the Classiccmp archives may have been broached by some lame > spammer. Has anyone else gotten an audio file from S. Ring > <_sring@uslink.net> with an audio file attachment, bearing the subject of > an old CC message? > From foo at siconic.com Wed Nov 28 11:59:37 2001 From: foo at siconic.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:11:35 2005 Subject: Is it a Lisa or Mac XL?! In-Reply-To: <8d.ff46b05.2935bc00@aol.com> Message-ID: On Tue, 27 Nov 2001 MTPro@aol.com wrote: > Lisa 2: The Lisa 2 has one 3.5-inch 400K disk drive, different disk > drive controller circuitry, and a redesigned front panel to > accommodate the single 3.5-inch drive opening. A 400K floppy > controller, labeled the "Lisa Lite Adapter," is mounted inside the > disk drive cage. The System I/0 board is socketed for an AMD 9512 > arithmetic processor. It has nickel-cadmium battery backup for the > real time clock. One 512K memory board is standard. The mother board > has a mouse connector, two serial connectors, and an external parallel > connector. The power supply is rated 1.2 A. I'll add that the Lisa 2 is actually an upgraded Lisa 1. When Apple's Twiggy drives proved troublesome, Apple apparently offered an upgrade to anyone with a Lisa to replace the Twiggy's with a Sony 3.5" drive. So you got a new drive assembly and front panel, and returned the old ones. Most people took advantage of this upgrade, which is why it's so hard to find an original Lisa these days. Since the Lisa 2 is simply a Lisa with new drive and front panel, it's possible to reverse the upgrade and end up with an original Lisa, however, good luck finding the front panel or Twiggy drives. I have heard of one fellow in Australia who was able to round up all the necessary parts and ended up with an original Lisa. You can tell if you have an actual Lisa 2 (as opposed to a 2/10) by looking at the I/O ports on the back panel. If you have the following buttons and ports, in order from left to right, then you most likely have a Lisa upgraded to a Lisa 2: RESET VIDEO OUT PARALLEL DEVICE MOUSE SERIAL DEVICE A SERIAL DEVICE B Also, as mentioned by David, the power supply is rated at 1.2A. If you don't have this configuration then you have the newer re-designed Lisa 2/10. Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org From DAW at yalepress3.unipress.yale.edu Wed Nov 28 12:14:45 2001 From: DAW at yalepress3.unipress.yale.edu (David Woyciesjes) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:11:35 2005 Subject: Spam from _sring@uslink.net? Message-ID: <9011A52E011ED311B4280004AC1BA615014672F6@yalepress3.unipress.yale.edu> Umm, maybe I'm falling for a joke, but the most recent thread here is about that very message containing the hot new W32.Badtrans.b virus... --- David A Woyciesjes --- C & IS Support Specialist --- Yale University Press --- mailto:david.woyciesjes@yale.edu --- (203) 432-0953 --- ICQ # - 905818 ! -----Original Message----- ! From: Vintage Computer Festival [mailto:vcf@vintage.org] ! Sent: Wednesday, November 28, 2001 12:29 PM ! To: Classic Computers Mailing List ! Subject: Spam from _sring@uslink.net? ! ! ! ! Looks like the Classiccmp archives may have been broached by some lame ! spammer. Has anyone else gotten an audio file from S. Ring ! <_sring@uslink.net> with an audio file attachment, bearing ! the subject of ! an old CC message? ! ! Sellam Ismail Vintage ! Computer Festival ! -------------------------------------------------------------- ! ---------------- ! International Man of Intrigue and Danger ! http://www.vintage.org ! ! * Old computing resources for business and academia at ! www.VintageTech.com * ! ! From jss at subatomix.com Wed Nov 28 12:15:27 2001 From: jss at subatomix.com (Jeffrey S. Sharp) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:11:35 2005 Subject: Spam from _sring@uslink.net? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20011128121444.G41602-100000@lepton.subatomix.com> On Wed, 28 Nov 2001, Vintage Computer Festival wrote: > Has anyone else gotten an audio file from S. Ring <_sring@uslink.net> > with an audio file attachment, bearing the subject of an old CC > message? It was not *really* an audio file, but yes, that happened to me. -- Jeffrey S. Sharp jss@subatomix.com From dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com Wed Nov 28 12:21:38 2001 From: dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com (Douglas Quebbeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:11:35 2005 Subject: S. Ring has badtrans virus Message-ID: <7A9BACCEF0171D4FB77019F5104CDD372259B6@jeffserver.tegjeff.com> > On Wed, 28 Nov 2001, David Woyciesjes wrote: > > > Well, I'm running Norton Corporate Edition, with Outlook 2000, and it > > scans my e-mail as it comes in, before I even read the message! Works > > out nice :-) > > Was it prescient enough to detect Badtrans.b? If Badtrans.b is a new > virus, it almost sounds fishy that NAV *already* knew how to > discover it. Heuristics. -dq From foo at siconic.com Wed Nov 28 12:21:25 2001 From: foo at siconic.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:11:35 2005 Subject: Wanted: Tiger Learning Computer In-Reply-To: <200111280657.WAA30550@opus.allegro.com> Message-ID: On Tue, 27 Nov 2001, Stan Sieler wrote: > Any ideas on how to identify it? There appear to be a number of toys > called "Tiger Learning Computer", including one with a Barney theme :( The only one I've ever seen in person is Hans Franke's. I forgot what markings are on it but I think it was the only machine called the Tiger Learning Computer. Maybe Hans can provide some visual clues. > > This is my biggest want currently. > > Ditto, well, except for an Ampere laptop (APL) and a 5100 (with APL). > :) I'm compiling a running want list that I'll be posting to the VCF website soon. I'll probably make it a community thing so that anyone can post a want list. Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org From Robert_Feldman at jdedwards.com Wed Nov 28 12:18:15 2001 From: Robert_Feldman at jdedwards.com (Feldman, Robert) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:11:35 2005 Subject: Spam from _sring@uslink.net? Message-ID: The virus works by "answering" unread emails on the infected computer. Mr. Ring appears not to be keeping up with the list ;-) Interestingly, if an infected computer sends an email to another infected computer, an "endless" loop of emails starts, until one or the other computer's email server crashes from the overload. -----Original Message----- From: Fred Cisin (XenoSoft) [mailto:cisin@xenosoft.com] Sent: Wednesday, November 28, 2001 11:55 AM To: Classic Computers Mailing List Subject: Re: Spam from _sring@uslink.net? On Wed, 28 Nov 2001, Vintage Computer Festival wrote: > Looks like the Classiccmp archives may have been broached by some lame > spammer. Has anyone else gotten an audio file from S. Ring > <_sring@uslink.net> with an audio file attachment, bearing the subject of > an old CC message? THAT AIn'T NO AUDIO FILE!!!!! Take a closer look at the extension! AFTER the MP3, JPG, DOC whatever extension, it has ANOTHER extension of .SCR or .PIF. THAT is the BADTRANS virus. -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin@xenosoft.com From foo at siconic.com Wed Nov 28 12:28:22 2001 From: foo at siconic.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:11:35 2005 Subject: Spam from _sring@uslink.net? In-Reply-To: <200111281804.NAA26433@wordstock.com> Message-ID: On Wed, 28 Nov 2001, Bryan Pope wrote: > Sellam, > > I received that message.. > > Bryan Pope > > > Looks like the Classiccmp archives may have been broached by some lame > > spammer. Has anyone else gotten an audio file from S. Ring > > <_sring@uslink.net> with an audio file attachment, bearing the subject of > > an old CC message? What I find interesting is that the message was masquerading as a reply to an old Classiccmp message. Either someone who got infected has a very large inbox with old-assed CC messages, or someone targeted the attack at the addresses in the CC archive. Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org From pete at dunnington.u-net.com Wed Nov 28 12:36:45 2001 From: pete at dunnington.u-net.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:11:35 2005 Subject: S. Ring has badtrans virus In-Reply-To: Douglas Quebbeman "RE: S. Ring has badtrans virus" (Nov 28, 12:38) References: <7A9BACCEF0171D4FB77019F5104CDD372259B4@jeffserver.tegjeff.com> Message-ID: <10111281836.ZM29176@mindy.dunnington.u-net.com> On Nov 28, 12:38, Douglas Quebbeman wrote: > > But the way it does it is *very* questionable.. The email is routed to one > > of their servers before being routed to you inbox. No, it just runs another server on your own machine (127.0.0.1, localhost) and redirects mail to that before giving it to Outlook. > Network Associates' Groupshield Exchange and Computer Associates' > eTrust InoculateIT! Exchange Option scan the mail as it comes in > to the server and what gets put in the inbox has been sanitized... > > except, apparantly, the BADTRANS virus. Fortunately, the client- > side realtime scanner caught it... Lots of things miss it because it's fairly new. It's only been around a few days. Most of the anti-virus sites have had updates for couple of days or more, though. One of the ways it works is to look through existing mail for messages that haven't been replied to, and reply to them. That way the recipient not only gets mail from someone whose address he recognises, it has a sensible subject line too. That's probably why several list members have it, and why Sellam got what he did. -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager University of York From geneb at deltasoft.com Wed Nov 28 13:46:10 2001 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (Gene Buckle) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:11:35 2005 Subject: Update for Heathkit users... In-Reply-To: <000901c17833$b99c54a0$0a00a8c0@cvendel> Message-ID: I've finally gotten off my ass and started updating the Retroarchive site. For the first round it's pretty much all Heathkit stuff. I've also recently obtained a complete set of the newsletter, "The Staunch 8/89'er" that I'm going to try to get online as fast as I can, time allowing. Since the Heathkit area of the site is pretty sparse, I'd like to ask you folks for some donations - if you've got software for any of the Heathkit machines you'd like to make available, please let me know. I'd be happy to get it online for others to download. BTW, thanks must go out to Jay West for hosting the site for me! http://www.retroarchive.org is the place. Thanks folks. Gene Buckle geneb@deltasoft.com From dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com Wed Nov 28 12:40:10 2001 From: dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com (Douglas Quebbeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:11:35 2005 Subject: Is it a Lisa or Mac XL?! Message-ID: <7A9BACCEF0171D4FB77019F5104CDD372259B7@jeffserver.tegjeff.com> > I'll add that the Lisa 2 is actually an upgraded Lisa 1. When Apple's > Twiggy drives proved troublesome, Apple apparently offered an upgrade to > anyone with a Lisa to replace the Twiggy's with a Sony 3.5" drive. So you > got a new drive assembly and front panel, and returned the old ones. > Most people took advantage of this upgrade, which is why it's so hard to > find an original Lisa these days. It's time for a group of us to find the Utah landfill where they dumped the Lisa inventory 15 years ago... Since you can find undecayed hotdogs from the 1960s in a landfill, I'm thinking the Lisas should be well preserved... -dq From RCini at congressfinancial.com Wed Nov 28 12:54:45 2001 From: RCini at congressfinancial.com (Cini, Richard) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:11:35 2005 Subject: S100 hard drives and controllers Message-ID: <497A9E0467D2D2119B760090271EB8E5879FA3@MAIL10> Hello, all: Did Morrow make a hard disk controller? Who made controllers and drives (if you could afford one) for these systems. Rich ========================== Richard A. Cini, Jr. Congress Financial Corporation 1133 Avenue of the Americas 30th Floor New York, NY 10036 (212) 545-4402 (212) 840-6259 (facsimile) From CLeyson at aol.com Wed Nov 28 12:56:08 2001 From: CLeyson at aol.com (CLeyson@aol.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:11:35 2005 Subject: S. Ring has badtrans virus Message-ID: Got two infected emails from ebay members. s3msong.doc.scr or pif Chris Leyson -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20011128/b1c6d26e/attachment-0001.html From healyzh at aracnet.com Wed Nov 28 13:00:06 2001 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:11:35 2005 Subject: DEC PC04/PR8E Question Message-ID: OK, the last part of my shipment just showed up, the Papertape reader. I'd thought the PC04 was a reader/punch. Am I correct in my revised assumption, that it came in three models; reader/punch, reader, and punch? Now for the first question, should there be anything on the right side (looking from the front) if it's only a reader? For some reason I've a bad feeling that I don't have a complete reader... On a positive note, the PDP-8/E looks to be in *far* better shape than I'd been lead to believe, so hopefully I'll be able to get it up and running with minimal effort (I could be so lucky). Though it's large enough I'm very tempted to transplant pieces into my PDP-8/M and put the /E in storage. Also I got a terrific looking pile of documenation and Volume 3 of the hardware manuals is twice the size of the copy I already had. Most of the manuals are ones I didn't have, and I've finally got a printset :^) Zane -- | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator | | healyzh@aracnet.com (primary) | OpenVMS Enthusiast | | | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | PDP-10 Emulation and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | From jhellige at earthlink.net Wed Nov 28 06:49:48 2001 From: jhellige at earthlink.net (Jeff Hellige) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:11:36 2005 Subject: Is it a Lisa or Mac XL?! In-Reply-To: <7A9BACCEF0171D4FB77019F5104CDD372259AA@jeffserver.tegjeff.com> References: <7A9BACCEF0171D4FB77019F5104CDD372259AA@jeffserver.tegjeff.com> Message-ID: <01Nov28.142002est.119196@gateway.mediacen.navy.mil> > > I took my Profile apart the other night and any hopes of >> swapping another drive in there were dashed since the ST506 has an >> Apple-specific board on it. > >isn't the apple-specific board piggy-backed onto the >board that's there in a non-apple version of the drive? Just from looking at the one in the Profile, and not having another 506 to directly compare it to, it looks like the Apple board is being used in place of whatever circuit card it would normally have. In fact, the interface to the drive is a single ribbon cable coming in from the side vice the dual data/control cables normally associated with the 506-type drives. Jeff -- Home of the TRS-80 Model 2000 FAQ File http://www.cchaven.com http://www.geocities.com/siliconvalley/lakes/6757 From owad at applefritter.com Wed Nov 28 13:10:39 2001 From: owad at applefritter.com (Tom Owad) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:11:36 2005 Subject: Wanted: Tiger Learning Computer In-Reply-To: <200111280657.WAA30550@opus.allegro.com> References: <200111280657.WAA30550@opus.allegro.com> Message-ID: <20011128191039.26937@mail.lafayette.edu> >Any ideas on how to identify it? There appear to be a number of >toys called "Tiger Learning Computer", including one with a Barney theme :( It looks like this: Tom Applefritter www.applefritter.com From pgentil1 at twcny.rr.com Wed Nov 28 13:16:01 2001 From: pgentil1 at twcny.rr.com (philip gentile) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:11:36 2005 Subject: south west boards Message-ID: <00b301c17841$1f57a710$ee7ca118@cheese> i'm looking to buy bare or populated swtpc mp-a2 and mp-s boards. i would appreciate any help on this. thanks, philip j gentile 1035 smith ridge road bridgeport, ny 13030 315.476.7859 voice 315.476.7865 fax -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20011128/c909b862/attachment-0001.html From pcautomation at mindspring.com Wed Nov 28 13:04:53 2001 From: pcautomation at mindspring.com (Computer Automation / Phil Clayton - Consultant) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:11:36 2005 Subject: Classic Computer Collection For Sale Message-ID: <006301c1783f$90ab4220$3331fea9@phil> Hello Everyone, I have come to the conclusion that it is time to sell my entire collection of Old microcomputers. I have collected over the last 20 years over 125 computers, including 10 Kaypro's, 5 or 6 Osbornes,plus the Original Tan case model. 2 Original TRS-80 Model 1's Complete with just about everything ever made for it. Also A Original Commodore PET 2001 with 8kb Ram, and built in Cassette. The Entire Kaypro & Osborne User Group Software on Floppy disks (About 200 ?), Hundreds if not thousands of original manuals, and tech reference books for Osborne, Kaypro, TRS-80. A large collection of old Computer Mags, Several hundred Games still boxed for the Commodore series 64,VIC20, 16, and Plus4.. Most all of my Commodores are in the original boxes and in mint condition. Also have large collection of TI-994A computers including , 2 expansion interfaces, and tons of software and extras. TRS-80's ? Almost the entire collection of the COCO series. Apples, Mac's and several hundred pounds of manuals and software. Lots of old printers, external Hard drives, SCSI Cdrom's, Modems, CGA,EGA,VGA,TTL, Composite (Color & Mono) Monitors, VGACommodore CBM's, TRS-80's.. 1000's of diskettes of utilities, games for CPM computers.. GAD's it way to much to think about and I'm starting to get depressed thinking of parting with it all (Smile..), but I am moving to new things (Getting a Life) and it would be impossible to move or keep this treasure. Again an entire bedroom is full to the ceiling of this stuff, no furniture in that room, just my collection boxed and stacked carefully. Way to many items to mention here, but I have Many Thousands of Dollars invested in my collection, and will sell it mostly at my cost to someone willing to buy it complete. Most all of these items are in Mint condition. You will need a large truck to move it all, as it fills an entire bedroom full to the ceiling. All items are boxed and have been kept in a controlled environment for many years. If you have Several thousand dollars to spend and are serious got a big truck and can travel to Florida to pick it up, I will email you a copy of the list or items.. I would much rather sell this as a whole than take several months and a Hugh amount of time boxing these items one by one.. If interested email me at musicman38@mindspring.com Phil.. From curt at atari-history.com Wed Nov 28 13:20:19 2001 From: curt at atari-history.com (Curt Vendel) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:11:36 2005 Subject: Spam from _sring@uslink.net? References: Message-ID: <000d01c17841$ba3ea6c0$0a00a8c0@cvendel> Sellam, Looks like a lot of places have broached the Classiccmp as I've been getting spammed up the ying-yang and my mail blocking policies are on the brink of a nervous brake down as of late, I know a lot of other people from the mailling that I speak with one to one have mentioned the same thing that they suddenly been inundated with spam. Curt ----- Original Message ----- From: "Vintage Computer Festival" To: "Classic Computers Mailing List" Sent: Wednesday, November 28, 2001 12:28 PM Subject: Spam from _sring@uslink.net? > > Looks like the Classiccmp archives may have been broached by some lame > spammer. Has anyone else gotten an audio file from S. Ring > <_sring@uslink.net> with an audio file attachment, bearing the subject of > an old CC message? > > Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival > -------------------------------------------------------------------------- ---- > International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org > > * Old computing resources for business and academia at www.VintageTech.com * > > From jhellige at earthlink.net Wed Nov 28 12:25:08 2001 From: jhellige at earthlink.net (Jeff Hellige) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:11:36 2005 Subject: S100 hard drives and controllers In-Reply-To: <497A9E0467D2D2119B760090271EB8E5879FA3@MAIL10> References: <497A9E0467D2D2119B760090271EB8E5879FA3@MAIL10> Message-ID: <01Nov28.143726est.119081@gateway.mediacen.navy.mil> > Did Morrow make a hard disk controller? Who made controllers and >drives (if you could afford one) for these systems. Zenith made a hard disk controller, paired with a data seperator card, for the IEEE version of the S-100 bus. Not sure how well it worked in systems other than the H/Z-100 machines though. Jeff -- Home of the TRS-80 Model 2000 FAQ File http://www.cchaven.com http://www.geocities.com/siliconvalley/lakes/6757 From CLeyson at aol.com Wed Nov 28 13:28:16 2001 From: CLeyson at aol.com (CLeyson@aol.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:11:36 2005 Subject: Question for HP 9826 owners Message-ID: I have the binaries for HP-9826 HPL. Copied them onto floppy disks, edited the file type directory entries with Lifutil and tried loading them. I get the error message "unexpected use of FFFFFFC4" Can anyone shed any light on this ? Best Regards Chris Leyson -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20011128/0e4e2e18/attachment-0001.html From curt at atari-history.com Wed Nov 28 13:45:02 2001 From: curt at atari-history.com (Curt Vendel) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:11:36 2005 Subject: Serial Hard Disk Interface (S100 hard drives and controllers) References: <497A9E0467D2D2119B760090271EB8E5879FA3@MAIL10> Message-ID: <005501c17845$2ded0870$0a00a8c0@cvendel> On the subject of hard drives and controllers.... I had read about someone working on a serial to IDE interface, can anyone point me in the direction of that website, I can no longer find the info and I was interested in the project to see if placing an Rverter interface which turns an Atari SIO port into a standard Serial port would work. Thanks, Curt ----- Original Message ----- From: "Cini, Richard" To: "'ClassCompList'" Sent: Wednesday, November 28, 2001 1:54 PM Subject: S100 hard drives and controllers > Hello, all: > > Did Morrow make a hard disk controller? Who made controllers and > drives (if you could afford one) for these systems. > > Rich > > ========================== > Richard A. Cini, Jr. > Congress Financial Corporation > 1133 Avenue of the Americas > 30th Floor > New York, NY 10036 > (212) 545-4402 > (212) 840-6259 (facsimile) > From dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com Wed Nov 28 13:47:26 2001 From: dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com (Douglas Quebbeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:11:36 2005 Subject: S100 hard drives and controllers Message-ID: <7A9BACCEF0171D4FB77019F5104CDD372259BA@jeffserver.tegjeff.com> > Hello, all: > > Did Morrow make a hard disk controller? Who made controllers and > drives (if you could afford one) for these systems. Yeah, I have the brochure for it somewhere; IIRC, the photo showed one of those big Winchester drives with the transparent plastic enclosure. -dq From hansp at aconit.org Wed Nov 28 13:58:53 2001 From: hansp at aconit.org (Hans B Pufal) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:11:36 2005 Subject: Spam from _sring@uslink.net? References: Message-ID: <3C0541FD.5030309@aconit.org> Vintage Computer Festival wrote: > Looks like the Classiccmp archives may have been broached by some lame > spammer. Has anyone else gotten an audio file from S. Ring > <_sring@uslink.net> with an audio file attachment, bearing the subject of > an old CC message? Don't know what it was but yes I received a message with an old subject line and no message body just an attachment which I immediatley discarded. -- hbp From edick at idcomm.com Wed Nov 28 14:00:50 2001 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:11:36 2005 Subject: S100 hard drives and controllers References: <497A9E0467D2D2119B760090271EB8E5879FA3@MAIL10> Message-ID: <000f01c17847$61310c20$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> Morrow did make a hard disk controller for S-100, though I know of no maker who shipped drives and controller as a unit. That doesn't mean it didn't happen, but just that I didn't encounter any. Several third-parties sold such arrangements complete with installation software. I had a Konan SMC-100 SMD controller and a CDC Lark drive for quite some time. SMC, later known as XEBEC, made a model 9391 controller (too tall for some enclosures), that supported four 5-1/4" drives. There were several makers, e.g. XCOMP, who provided S-100 board pairs for both 8" and 5-1/4" drives, though one set would only deal with one type, and, in fact, one drive. Most of the hard disk applications used a host adapter and an external bridge board that talked to the drives. I was quite partial to the Western Digital types myself, but Shugart, Xebec and Adaptec, not to mention OMTI, DTC, and XCOMP all made bridge boards that worked very well. Most of them used the SASI interface, though the Western Digital types, with the exception of the WD1002-SAS, used their own interface, which I found MUCH easier to deal with than SASI or SCSI. With the bridge board, one generally had the option of using parallel ports in place of a bridge-specific interface, so that was quite a popular solution. Dick ----- Original Message ----- From: "Cini, Richard" To: "'ClassCompList'" Sent: Wednesday, November 28, 2001 11:54 AM Subject: S100 hard drives and controllers > Hello, all: > > Did Morrow make a hard disk controller? Who made controllers and > drives (if you could afford one) for these systems. > > Rich > > ========================== > Richard A. Cini, Jr. > Congress Financial Corporation > 1133 Avenue of the Americas > 30th Floor > New York, NY 10036 > (212) 545-4402 > (212) 840-6259 (facsimile) > > From foo at siconic.com Wed Nov 28 14:27:52 2001 From: foo at siconic.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:11:36 2005 Subject: S100 hard drives and controllers In-Reply-To: <497A9E0467D2D2119B760090271EB8E5879FA3@MAIL10> Message-ID: On Wed, 28 Nov 2001, Cini, Richard wrote: > Did Morrow make a hard disk controller? Who made controllers and > drives (if you could afford one) for these systems. Yes. Morrow made the Disk Jockey. I believe Tarbell also produced a hard drive controller. So did Godbout (CompuPro), and California Computer Systems. I know there are many I'm missing. Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org From foo at siconic.com Wed Nov 28 14:28:53 2001 From: foo at siconic.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:11:36 2005 Subject: Is it a Lisa or Mac XL?! In-Reply-To: <01Nov28.142002est.119196@gateway.mediacen.navy.mil> Message-ID: On Wed, 28 Nov 2001, Jeff Hellige wrote: > Just from looking at the one in the Profile, and not having > another 506 to directly compare it to, it looks like the Apple board > is being used in place of whatever circuit card it would normally > have. In fact, the interface to the drive is a single ribbon cable > coming in from the side vice the dual data/control cables normally > associated with the 506-type drives. Jeff, you are correct. For whatever reason that Apple had a habit of, the normal board was replaced by a custom Apple board. I doubt you could drop in a non-Apple replacement drive and have it work. Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org From Innfogra at aol.com Wed Nov 28 14:37:11 2001 From: Innfogra at aol.com (Innfogra@aol.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:11:36 2005 Subject: Spam from _sring@uslink.net?& archive mining Message-ID: <120.7dcc271.2936a4f7@aol.com> I got sent the virus too, by the original poster _sring. Deleted it thanks to the warning on the list. Unfortunately I deleted it before I checked the header. As to Spam from CCMP. I have this one email address that I use only for the CCMP list. I get no Spam at this address, well maybe one or less a month, and then it is talked about a lot on the list so I know everyone got it. I use this list as an example of an excellently run list. I do not see evidence anyone has successfully mined the archives for addresses. Paxton Astoria, OR From foo at siconic.com Wed Nov 28 14:32:11 2001 From: foo at siconic.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:11:36 2005 Subject: Spam from _sring@uslink.net? In-Reply-To: <000d01c17841$ba3ea6c0$0a00a8c0@cvendel> Message-ID: On Wed, 28 Nov 2001, Curt Vendel wrote: > Looks like a lot of places have broached the Classiccmp as I've > been getting spammed up the ying-yang and my mail blocking policies > are on the brink of a nervous brake down as of late, I know a lot of > other people from the mailling that I speak with one to one have > mentioned the same thing that they suddenly been inundated with spam. Curious, as I use this account exclusively to receive CC messages, and mostly post to the list from it. I have never received a spam message addressed directly to . I bet the spam that others are receiving is a result of their posting their address somewhere else. Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org From cmcmanis at mcmanis.com Wed Nov 28 14:52:12 2001 From: cmcmanis at mcmanis.com (Chuck McManis) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:11:36 2005 Subject: S100 hard drives and controllers In-Reply-To: References: <497A9E0467D2D2119B760090271EB8E5879FA3@MAIL10> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20011128125148.02a5ebc0@mcmanis.com> Cromemco made one, Adaptec made a SCSI host adapter. --Chuck At 12:27 PM 11/28/01, you wrote: >On Wed, 28 Nov 2001, Cini, Richard wrote: > > > Did Morrow make a hard disk controller? Who made controllers and > > drives (if you could afford one) for these systems. > >Yes. Morrow made the Disk Jockey. I believe Tarbell also produced a hard >drive controller. So did Godbout (CompuPro), and California Computer >Systems. I know there are many I'm missing. > >Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival >------------------------------------------------------------------------------ >International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Wed Nov 28 14:57:04 2001 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (Allison) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:11:36 2005 Subject: S. Ring has badtrans virus Message-ID: <001601c1784f$3d6a2300$6b7b7b7b@ajp> Save for two things... I could not even touch the mail file or Norton AV would scream virus. Since I could not tiuch it there was no clue as to the content (save for virus laden). The machine at no time ever was infected but because of how lookoutdistress works you cant delete an element of the ISAM file that has the offending mail message and norton was trying to do that. After a day of win98se installing the sound hardware(board level disabled!) that I dont want but not the second parallel port I do want w9x is still guano! Allison -----Original Message----- From: Curt Vendel To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org Date: Wednesday, November 28, 2001 1:07 PM Subject: Re: S. Ring has badtrans virus >Yeah, > > I got it too, I never open anything unless I know who the person is and >even then I always look at the attachment first before opening it. The >file being a virus was pretty apparent when I saw the extension .doc.pif >which is a fairly classic sign of some form of virus like the Nimda/sadmind. > > >Curt > > >----- Original Message ----- >From: "John Lawson" >To: >Sent: Wednesday, November 28, 2001 9:53 AM >Subject: Re: S. Ring has badtrans virus > > >> >> >> It was sent to me 'personally', ie not as a classiccmp post. Since it >> was an unsolicited attachment from an unacknowledged source, it filed it >> in /dev/nul. >> >> just FYI if any listmembers get the thing... >> >> >> Cheerz >> >> John >> >> >> > > From mythtech at Mac.com Wed Nov 28 14:58:20 2001 From: mythtech at Mac.com (Chris) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:11:36 2005 Subject: Is it a Lisa or Mac XL?! Message-ID: >It's time for a group of us to find the Utah landfill >where they dumped the Lisa inventory 15 years ago... > >Since you can find undecayed hotdogs from the 1960s >in a landfill, I'm thinking the Lisas should be well >preserved... I think I read somewhere, that Apple had guards watching the landfill until they were satisfied that all the lisa's had been crushed beyond hope. But who knows, that could just be a story, and they may all be sitting in a pile somewhere waiting to be booted. -chris From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Wed Nov 28 14:59:35 2001 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (Allison) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:11:36 2005 Subject: Spam from _sring@uslink.net? Message-ID: <002b01c1784f$9761c0c0$6b7b7b7b@ajp> same here, it was a badtrans.b in a file ending in .SCR the winders virus propagation scritpting language. Allison -----Original Message----- From: Jeffrey S. Sharp To: Classic Computers Mailing List Date: Wednesday, November 28, 2001 1:50 PM Subject: Re: Spam from _sring@uslink.net? >On Wed, 28 Nov 2001, Vintage Computer Festival wrote: > >> Has anyone else gotten an audio file from S. Ring <_sring@uslink.net> >> with an audio file attachment, bearing the subject of an old CC >> message? > >It was not *really* an audio file, but yes, that happened to me. > >-- >Jeffrey S. Sharp >jss@subatomix.com > From dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com Wed Nov 28 15:04:41 2001 From: dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com (Douglas Quebbeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:11:36 2005 Subject: S100 hard drives and controllers Message-ID: <7A9BACCEF0171D4FB77019F5104CDD372259BC@jeffserver.tegjeff.com> > > Did Morrow make a hard disk controller? Who made controllers and > > drives (if you could afford one) for these systems. > > Yes. Morrow made the Disk Jockey. I believe Tarbell also produced a hard > drive controller. So did Godbout (CompuPro), and California Computer > Systems. I know there are many I'm missing. The Disk Jockey was the name of the floppy controller; it may well have also been the name of the hard drive controller, but I still have the photo and docs for the floppy controler... -dq From dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com Wed Nov 28 15:11:40 2001 From: dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com (Douglas Quebbeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:11:36 2005 Subject: Is it a Lisa or Mac XL?! Message-ID: <7A9BACCEF0171D4FB77019F5104CDD372259BD@jeffserver.tegjeff.com> > On Wed, 28 Nov 2001, Jeff Hellige wrote: > > > Just from looking at the one in the Profile, and not having > > another 506 to directly compare it to, it looks like the Apple board > > is being used in place of whatever circuit card it would normally > > have. In fact, the interface to the drive is a single ribbon cable > > coming in from the side vice the dual data/control cables normally > > associated with the 506-type drives. > > Jeff, you are correct. For whatever reason that Apple had a habit of, the > normal board was replaced by a custom Apple board. I doubt you could drop > in a non-Apple replacement drive and have it work. Perhaps he could pull that board from the Lisa drive and slap it onto the generic version of the same drive? Just a thought... -dq From allain at panix.com Wed Nov 28 15:11:43 2001 From: allain at panix.com (John Allain) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:11:36 2005 Subject: Spam from _sring@uslink.net? References: <3C0541FD.5030309@aconit.org> Message-ID: <004101c17851$47f35ce0$21fe54a6@ibm23xhr06> > Don't know what it was but yes I received a message with an old subject > line and no message body just an attachment which I immediatley discarded. No, heed Allison, if you are on a W/lose architecture. Submit "+virus+badtrans" to Yahoo and pick www.antivirus.com for instructions. This is the first time I've seen an autolaunching virus on my machine. I May not be infected, but I can't rest until a few tests are completed. John A. "The directions said to install Windows 95 or better so I installed Linux." -- David Kinney From Robert_Feldman at jdedwards.com Wed Nov 28 15:16:18 2001 From: Robert_Feldman at jdedwards.com (Feldman, Robert) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:11:36 2005 Subject: Spam from _sring@uslink.net? Message-ID: According to what I have read about the virus, it "replies" to unread emails. The copy I got was a re: to "RE: Rubber Restorer", which was a thread a few weeks ago about restoring printer feeder rollers. I did post in that thread. I would venture that everyone on the CC list who got a copy had it titled in re: something they previously posted. I guess we have a second reason to be upset with Mr. (or Ms.) Ring: s/he didn't read at least one of our brilliant email posts. BTW, can anybody check to see if Ring is a member of the list? -----Original Message----- From: Sellam Ismail [mailto:foo@siconic.com] Sent: Wednesday, November 28, 2001 2:32 PM To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org Subject: Re: Spam from _sring@uslink.net? Curious, as I use this account exclusively to receive CC messages, and mostly post to the list from it. From fmc at reanimators.org Wed Nov 28 15:19:04 2001 From: fmc at reanimators.org (Frank McConnell) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:11:36 2005 Subject: S100 hard drives and controllers In-Reply-To: Sellam Ismail's message of "Wed, 28 Nov 2001 12:27:52 -0800 (PST)" References: Message-ID: <200111282119.fASLJ5h33715@daemonweed.reanimators.org> Sellam Ismail wrote: > Yes. Morrow made the Disk Jockey. I believe Tarbell also produced a hard > drive controller. So did Godbout (CompuPro), and California Computer > Systems. I know there are many I'm missing. Morrow Disk Jockey controllers were floppy-disk controllers. I think their ST-412 interface hard disk controller was called the HDC/DMA or DMAHDC. -Frank McConnell From george at racsys.rt.rain.com Wed Nov 28 15:23:36 2001 From: george at racsys.rt.rain.com (George Leo Rachor Jr.) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:11:36 2005 Subject: Is it a Lisa or Mac XL?! In-Reply-To: Message-ID: I understand discontinuing a product but could never quite figure out why you would actually destroy equipment. I mean what is the point? George ========================================================= George L. Rachor Jr. george@rachors.com Hillsboro, Oregon http://rachors.com United States of America Amateur Radio : KD7DCX On Wed, 28 Nov 2001, Chris wrote: > I think I read somewhere, that Apple had guards watching the landfill > until they were satisfied that all the lisa's had been crushed beyond > hope. But who knows, that could just be a story, and they may all be > sitting in a pile somewhere waiting to be booted. > > -chris > > > > From foo at siconic.com Wed Nov 28 15:27:27 2001 From: foo at siconic.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:11:36 2005 Subject: S100 hard drives and controllers In-Reply-To: <7A9BACCEF0171D4FB77019F5104CDD372259BC@jeffserver.tegjeff.com> Message-ID: On Wed, 28 Nov 2001, Douglas Quebbeman wrote: > The Disk Jockey was the name of the floppy controller; it may well > have also been the name of the hard drive controller, but I still have > the photo and docs for the floppy controler... You're right. But Morrow did make a hard drive controller as well. It may have been named something simple like HDC. I'll see if I come across an S-100 board stash today when I'm at my warehouse. Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org From jismay at gkar.unixboxen.net Wed Nov 28 15:29:22 2001 From: jismay at gkar.unixboxen.net (jismay@gkar.unixboxen.net) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:11:36 2005 Subject: Tandy PC-4 pocket computer Message-ID: <20011128132922.A39@gkar.unixboxen.net> I have a complete PC-4 basic setup including the programmer's manual and the user's manual I even have the leatherette slipcase for the unit. I will try to get the manuals scanned and put on the web when I get the chance. http://agamemnon.unixboxen.net From CordaAJ at nswc.navy.mil Wed Nov 28 15:52:24 2001 From: CordaAJ at nswc.navy.mil (Corda Albert J DLVA) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:11:36 2005 Subject: Is it a Lisa or Mac XL?! Message-ID: <7B4C28C84831D211BFA200805F9F34561A8F29@nswcdlvaex04.nswc.navy.mil> Wow! We could finally claim that we are _real_ computer archeologists... The kind that use a shovel and pick! If we look hard enough, we might even find an SGI Jurrasic Classic, or a Predator rack! Sounds fun! -al- -acorda@1bigred.com > -----Original Message----- > From: Douglas Quebbeman [mailto:dhquebbeman@theestopinalgroup.com] > Sent: Wednesday, November 28, 2001 1:40 PM > To: 'classiccmp@classiccmp.org' > Subject: RE: Is it a Lisa or Mac XL?! > > > > I'll add that the Lisa 2 is actually an upgraded Lisa 1. > When Apple's > > Twiggy drives proved troublesome, Apple apparently offered > an upgrade to > > anyone with a Lisa to replace the Twiggy's with a Sony 3.5" > drive. So you > > got a new drive assembly and front panel, and returned the > old ones. > > Most people took advantage of this upgrade, which is why > it's so hard to > > find an original Lisa these days. > > It's time for a group of us to find the Utah landfill > where they dumped the Lisa inventory 15 years ago... > > Since you can find undecayed hotdogs from the 1960s > in a landfill, I'm thinking the Lisas should be well > preserved... > > -dq > From jhellige at earthlink.net Wed Nov 28 15:55:51 2001 From: jhellige at earthlink.net (Jeff Hellige) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:11:36 2005 Subject: Spam from _sring@uslink.net? In-Reply-To: <004101c17851$47f35ce0$21fe54a6@ibm23xhr06> References: <3C0541FD.5030309@aconit.org> <004101c17851$47f35ce0$21fe54a6@ibm23xhr06> Message-ID: > This is the first time I've seen an autolaunching virus on > my machine. I May not be infected, but I can't rest until > a few tests are completed. With the others lately that have caused so much trouble, I've not gotten hit at all at home, only hits on the servers at work. WIth this new one, I've gotten 3 hits from it in the last few days. It seems this one is a bit better at reproducing than the others. Jeff -- Home of the TRS-80 Model 2000 FAQ File http://www.cchaven.com http://www.geocities.com/siliconvalley/lakes/6757 From dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com Wed Nov 28 16:03:40 2001 From: dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com (Douglas Quebbeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:11:36 2005 Subject: Is it a Lisa or Mac XL?! Message-ID: <7A9BACCEF0171D4FB77019F5104CDD372259BE@jeffserver.tegjeff.com> > I understand discontinuing a product but could never quite figure out why > you would actually destroy equipment. I mean what is the point? I'd imagine they were concerned about 10,000 MacXLs cutting into the selling of Mac 512ke & Mac Plus models... OTOH, if it happened during the Jobs era, no logic or reason was likely involved; Jobs has a proven track record of killing Apple products he personally dislikes. But pepsiboy may have been Lisa's nail-in-the-coffin, I just can't recall... -dq From mythtech at Mac.com Wed Nov 28 16:11:32 2001 From: mythtech at Mac.com (Chris) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:11:36 2005 Subject: Is it a Lisa or Mac XL?! Message-ID: >I understand discontinuing a product but could never quite figure out why >you would actually destroy equipment. I mean what is the point? I suppose this was apple logic, they wanted you to buy something OTHER than the lisa, so they had the choice of sell off/give away all the discontinued lisa's (they didn't want them being used, so that was out of the question)... or junk them. If you just normal junk them (haul them to the scrap yard and dump them in a pile), you risk the very real possibility that the scrapper will salvage them and sell them off (makes sense, they ARE in the buying and selling scrap business)... which again, means they would be in the market, something apple didn't want... only NOW they would be in the market and apple didn't get a buck. So by destroying them beyond hope... they remove them from the market 100%. I personally think this is stupid, but hey, I don't run apple, and they seem to have their own form of logic. And then there is always the chance it was just a Jobs thing. IIRC, he was more or less in charge when this was done, and he worked more on the mac then the lisa (even though, I think the original lisa specs were his idea)... so to Jobs and the ever expanding ego, he wanted to rub salt in the wounds of the Lisa team, by not only showing that the lisa didn't sell as well... but that thousands of unsold ones were turned into dust at apple's expense. I that logic is why it might be a while before Apple comes out with anything that might resemble a Newton (since the Newton was Scully's baby, and Scully was in charge when Jobs was outsted). I don't think it was a co-incidence that the first thing Jobs did on his return was violently kill off the newton... and I think it will be a while before his ego will allow a return of a similar product... the iPod is probably paving the way to erase the Newton memory, so when one DOES come out, it will be seen as an advanced iPod, not as a Newton II. Just my 2 cents -chris From donm at cts.com Wed Nov 28 16:11:40 2001 From: donm at cts.com (Don Maslin) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:11:36 2005 Subject: S100 hard drives and controllers In-Reply-To: <01Nov28.143726est.119081@gateway.mediacen.navy.mil> Message-ID: On Wed, 28 Nov 2001, Jeff Hellige wrote: > > Did Morrow make a hard disk controller? Who made controllers and > >drives (if you could afford one) for these systems. > > Zenith made a hard disk controller, paired with a data > seperator card, for the IEEE version of the S-100 bus. Not sure how > well it worked in systems other than the H/Z-100 machines though. > > Jeff Advanced Digital also made one. - don > -- > Home of the TRS-80 Model 2000 FAQ File > http://www.cchaven.com > http://www.geocities.com/siliconvalley/lakes/6757 > From donm at cts.com Wed Nov 28 16:26:02 2001 From: donm at cts.com (Don Maslin) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:11:36 2005 Subject: Olivetti PR2300 printer Message-ID: Is any one of you cpllectors interested in getting a sample of this early '80s inkjet? A local thrift shop has one - unpriced, but I'd think cheap - that I can pickup and ship on request. But, your request better be quick as I will be away for a week starting Saturday. - don From at258 at osfn.org Wed Nov 28 16:34:22 2001 From: at258 at osfn.org (Merle K. Peirce) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:11:36 2005 Subject: S. Ring has badtrans virus In-Reply-To: <000401c17816$35f13b60$6b7b7b7b@ajp> Message-ID: I've been wondering about that. I've had 3 or 4 messages with a 39K something attached, and I deleted them all. On Wed, 28 Nov 2001, Allison wrote: > If you see a mail from S.RING on the list delete it, the attachment > has badtrans virus. > > Allison > > M. K. Peirce Rhode Island Computer Museum, Inc. Shady Lea, Rhode Island "Casta est quam nemo rogavit." - Ovid From donm at cts.com Wed Nov 28 16:53:56 2001 From: donm at cts.com (Don Maslin) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:11:36 2005 Subject: Is it a Lisa or Mac XL?! In-Reply-To: <3B55D7F383B0D31197D9009027541CBF1170DEEC@cmiexch1.cmi.itds.com> Message-ID: On Wed, 28 Nov 2001, Christopher Smith wrote: > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: Jeff Hellige [mailto:jhellige@earthlink.net] > > > I took my Profile apart the other night and any hopes of > > swapping another drive in there were dashed since the ST506 has an > > Apple-specific board on it. > > Tried that, myself -- just as a curiosity. As you said, it's kind of weird > in there. > > I wonder, though, whether there's an easier way to do it. Maybe the HD > adaptors that came with the newer ones (for internal disks) were standard > enough to have something else plugged in. (haven't checked) > > It would be interesting to have a Maxtor used for the RD54> in a Lisa. They were about 150 megabytes. Better if the > SCSI port actually could be used to boot the machine. That was the Maxtor XT-2190, but remember it was a full-high 5.25" drive. - don > Regards, > > Chris > > > Christopher Smith, Perl Developer > Amdocs - Champaign, IL > > /usr/bin/perl -e ' > print((~"\x95\xc4\xe3"^"Just Another Perl Hacker.")."\x08!\n"); > ' > > From spectre at stockholm.ptloma.edu Wed Nov 28 17:01:00 2001 From: spectre at stockholm.ptloma.edu (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:11:36 2005 Subject: Spam from _sring@uslink.net? In-Reply-To: <3C0541FD.5030309@aconit.org> from Hans B Pufal at "Nov 28, 1 08:58:53 pm" Message-ID: <200111282301.PAA12880@stockholm.ptloma.edu> > > Looks like the Classiccmp archives may have been broached by some lame > > spammer. Has anyone else gotten an audio file from S. Ring > > <_sring@uslink.net> with an audio file attachment, bearing the subject of > > an old CC message? > > Don't know what it was but yes I received a message with an old subject > line and no message body just an attachment which I immediatley discarded. Ditto. I think that audio/x-wav attachment is actually a virus payload, IIRC. -- ----------------------------- personal page: http://www.armory.com/~spectre/ -- Cameron Kaiser, Point Loma Nazarene University * ckaiser@stockholm.ptloma.edu -- The new Tourette Syndrome movie: Twitch and Shout! -- John Waters ---------- From spectre at stockholm.ptloma.edu Wed Nov 28 17:03:07 2001 From: spectre at stockholm.ptloma.edu (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:11:36 2005 Subject: Spam from _sring@uslink.net? In-Reply-To: <004101c17851$47f35ce0$21fe54a6@ibm23xhr06> from John Allain at "Nov 28, 1 04:11:43 pm" Message-ID: <200111282303.PAA12122@stockholm.ptloma.edu> > This is the first time I've seen an autolaunching virus on > my machine. I May not be infected, but I can't rest until > a few tests are completed. Fortunately, I read E-mail with Elm on a non-root account on a PowerPC architecture. I'm not a very large target :-) -- ----------------------------- personal page: http://www.armory.com/~spectre/ -- Cameron Kaiser, Point Loma Nazarene University * ckaiser@stockholm.ptloma.edu -- MOVIE IDEA: Ferris Bueller's E-mail Signature ------------------------------ From jhellige at earthlink.net Wed Nov 28 17:10:25 2001 From: jhellige at earthlink.net (Jeff Hellige) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:11:36 2005 Subject: Is it a Lisa or Mac XL?! In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: >So by destroying them beyond hope... they remove them from the market >100%. Then you've got the other end of the spectrum....When the Model 2000 didn't sell as well as they'd hoped, Tandy killed it with huge amounts of stock still onhand. Initial reviews of the machine were still showing up in magazines after it had been killed and it hung around in the catalogs for a year or so after. Tandy then stuck the remaining machines, which was a considerable number, in the backs of stores, in wharehouses and who knows where else. Tandy eventually made all the stores purchase one to use as a POS system and then nearly 5 years after it's introduction Tandy finally liquidated whatever stock they had left onhnad in a big fire sale. By then a non-compatible clone wasn't worth much even though it was still a respectable performer. Jeff -- Home of the TRS-80 Model 2000 FAQ File http://www.cchaven.com http://www.geocities.com/siliconvalley/lakes/6757 From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Nov 28 17:04:42 2001 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:11:36 2005 Subject: Is it a Lisa or Mac XL?! In-Reply-To: <003c01c17815$a41524e0$38b1ff0a@cvendel> from "Curt Vendel" at Nov 28, 1 09:04:46 am Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 814 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20011128/a023da71/attachment-0001.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Nov 28 16:33:46 2001 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:11:36 2005 Subject: Tandy PC-4 pocket computer In-Reply-To: <200111280435.UAA09228@stockholm.ptloma.edu> from "Cameron Kaiser" at Nov 27, 1 08:35:35 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 2284 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20011128/ebc8210d/attachment-0001.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Nov 28 17:08:01 2001 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:11:36 2005 Subject: S. Ring has badtrans virus In-Reply-To: from "John Lawson" at Nov 28, 1 09:53:22 am Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 749 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20011128/eea3b308/attachment-0001.ksh From cisin at xenosoft.com Wed Nov 28 17:36:25 2001 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin (XenoSoft)) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:11:36 2005 Subject: Spam from _sring@uslink.net? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Wed, 28 Nov 2001, Feldman, Robert wrote: > it titled in re: something they previously posted. I guess we have a second > reason to be upset with Mr. (or Ms.) Ring: s/he didn't read at least one of > our brilliant email posts. To top it all, I just got a copy from John R. Keys Jr. <_jrkeys@concentric.net> !! Notice that the virus prepends an unsdersore in front of an otherwise legitimate address. QUESTION: Is the virus necessarily on HIS computer, or has somebody written any viruses that forge somebody else's return address (from another message in the same mailbox), This one, the "payload" was in: README.mp3.scr I've also gotten earlier today from other mails a couple with a payload named: SM3SONG.mp3.scr And people can't understand why I would prefer PINE on a Unix shell account over OUTLOOK (aka MS virus transfer protocol) -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin@xenosoft.com From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Nov 28 17:15:11 2001 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:11:36 2005 Subject: DEC PC04/PR8E Question In-Reply-To: from "Zane H. Healy" at Nov 28, 1 11:00:06 am Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1109 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20011128/63cc7fa5/attachment-0001.ksh From healyzh at aracnet.com Wed Nov 28 18:15:46 2001 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:11:36 2005 Subject: PDP-8/E Powersupply (was: Re: DEC PC04/PR8E Question) In-Reply-To: from "Tony Duell" at Nov 28, 2001 11:15:11 PM Message-ID: <200111290015.fAT0FkZ05817@shell1.aracnet.com> > > OK, the last part of my shipment just showed up, the Papertape reader. I'd > > thought the PC04 was a reader/punch. Am I correct in my revised > > assumption, that it came in three models; reader/punch, reader, and punch? > > I've heard of punch/reader and reader-only models. Never heard of a > punch-only one. It could exist, though. I'm basing the guess about a Punch only model from the pictures of the switches in the printset I've got. It shows four layouts; Reader, Punch, and two types of Punch/Reader. > Well, on the front there should be a switch panel with 2 swtiches on it > (reader on/off and tape feed). The punch/reader version has 4 swtiches > (The other 2 are the same 2 functions for the punch). That much at least looks complete. > Inside the punch takes up the right hand side of the chassis. The logic > backplane and PSU are on the left (the backplane will be fairly empty for > a reader-only version, I think). The reader sits in the middle -- it's > very simple -- a stepper motor with a large sproket wheel on the shaft, a > 'festoon' lamp, and a phototransistor array. And not a lot else. Hmm, in this case it sounds like I might have a complete Reader if I'm lucky. I've not really spent much time looking at it yet. So far I've spent my time looking into the PDP-8/E. Overall it looks pretty good, in part thanks to the fact that the previous owner had started to restore it a couple years ago. I'm getting ready to see about checking out the powersupply, hopefully either tonite or tomorrow morning. Is it safe to power it on to test the voltages without any kind of a load? Also, is there anyway to 'lubricate' the switches on the front panel? Zane From erd_6502 at yahoo.com Wed Nov 28 19:15:14 2001 From: erd_6502 at yahoo.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:11:36 2005 Subject: Is it a Lisa or Mac XL?! In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20011129011514.46604.qmail@web20101.mail.yahoo.com> --- "George Leo Rachor Jr." wrote: > I understand discontinuing a product but could never quite figure out why > you would actually destroy equipment. I mean what is the point? Scrapping them off the books for tax purposes, in all likelyhood. We used to have to physically destroy our COMBOARDs before we could write them off. If we were ever audited and happened to have product that was logged as scrap, but hadn't been, we would have been in a world of hurt from either the County Tax officials or perhaps the IRS. It sucks, but if you scrap hardware, you have to render it useless. -ethan __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! GeoCities - quick and easy web site hosting, just $8.95/month. http://geocities.yahoo.com/ps/info1 From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Nov 28 19:15:15 2001 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:11:36 2005 Subject: PDP-8/E Powersupply (was: Re: DEC PC04/PR8E Question) In-Reply-To: <200111290015.fAT0FkZ05817@shell1.aracnet.com> from "Zane H. Healy" at Nov 28, 1 04:15:46 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 3392 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20011129/20d6b3ab/attachment-0001.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Nov 28 19:16:58 2001 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:11:36 2005 Subject: Spam from _sring@uslink.net? In-Reply-To: from "Fred Cisin" at Nov 28, 1 03:36:25 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 388 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20011129/b125f7d1/attachment-0001.ksh From cisin at xenosoft.com Wed Nov 28 20:19:38 2001 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin (XenoSoft)) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:11:36 2005 Subject: Is it a Lisa or Mac XL?! In-Reply-To: <20011129011514.46604.qmail@web20101.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: > It sucks, but if you scrap hardware, you have to render it useless. Would installing Windoze on it qualify? From tothwolf at concentric.net Wed Nov 28 20:22:52 2001 From: tothwolf at concentric.net (Tothwolf) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:11:37 2005 Subject: Spam from _sring@uslink.net? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Wed, 28 Nov 2001, Fred Cisin (XenoSoft) wrote: > Notice that the virus prepends an unsdersore in front of an otherwise > legitimate address. Guess we could use this to our advantage with mail filters? > And people can't understand why I would prefer PINE on a Unix shell > account over OUTLOOK (aka MS virus transfer protocol) procmail and pine...gotta be the best combination I've found yet. One of these days I'll give mutt a try too. -Toth From allain at panix.com Wed Nov 28 20:27:46 2001 From: allain at panix.com (John Allain) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:11:37 2005 Subject: Is it a Lisa or Mac XL?! References: <7A9BACCEF0171D4FB77019F5104CDD372259BE@jeffserver.tegjeff.com> Message-ID: <000d01c1787d$6f061800$21fe54a6@ibm23xhr06> > I understand discontinuing a product but could never quite figure out why > you would actually destroy equipment. I mean what is the point? Must be a marketing thing. Not uncommon. There's a matching story about Polaroid accepting 50's era models in trade for a discount on 60's models, then tossing the lot of them. (To be exact, the published folklore said they in this case were tossed into a warehouse but I don't think they actually knew). John A. From allain at panix.com Wed Nov 28 20:28:09 2001 From: allain at panix.com (John Allain) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:11:37 2005 Subject: Martha Stewart References: <7A9BACCEF0171D4FB77019F5104CDD372259BE@jeffserver.tegjeff.com> Message-ID: <000e01c1787d$7c832860$21fe54a6@ibm23xhr06> Martha Stewart had a short radio column today where She actually preached the ethics of classiccmpers. That is, what do you do with old computers? Number 1 was don't toss it (yes), until you check with your local schools, even if you are sure it is obsolete (yes), if you can't place it this way, she continues by mentioning that some people actually collect them as vintage (yes), and then brings up eBay as a sort of last resort (sorry). Good press that we all need. John A. Project Greenkeys. From gwynp at artware.qc.ca Wed Nov 28 20:32:41 2001 From: gwynp at artware.qc.ca (gwynp@artware.qc.ca) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:11:37 2005 Subject: FYI: Otrona 2001 on ebay In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On 28-Nov-2001 Feldman, Robert wrote: > You don't see many of these around. It was a more MS-DOS compatible > model, with a larger screen than the Attache, that came out just before > Otrona went under. > > So far, it's bid is under $40. > > http://cgi.ebay.com/aw-cgi/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=1302397837 > Oh wow. That's computer looks so nice. I covet. 35 pounds shipping, though.... -Philip From cube1 at home.com Wed Nov 28 20:54:35 2001 From: cube1 at home.com (Jay Jaeger) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:11:37 2005 Subject: Worm Alert (Re: Spam from _sring@uslink.net?) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4.3.2.7.2.20011128203743.03d586b8@cirithi> There is a virus / worm going around. Among other things, you can spot it because it seems to replace the sender in the "Reply To:" with one starting with an underscore. At least two of them appropriated subjects related to messages I posted on ClassicCmp -- one referring to the PDP/11-24 power supply stuff and another relating to TU10's. Norton AV on my machine caught messages with it on my way in, and said: is infected with the W32.Badtrans.B@mm virus. The Symantec page http://securityresponse.symantec.com/avcenter/venc/data/w32.badtrans.b@mm.html has information on it. "The worm writes email addresses to the %System%\Protocol.dll file to prevent multiple emails to the same person. Additionally, the sender's email address will have the "_" character prepended to it, to prevent replying to infected mails to warn the sender (eg user@website.com becomes _user@website.com)." Jay At 01:16 AM 11/29/2001 +0000, you wrote: > > > it titled in re: something they previously posted. I guess we have a > second > > > reason to be upset with Mr. (or Ms.) Ring: s/he didn't read at least > one of > > > our brilliant email posts. > > > > To top it all, I just got a copy from > > John R. Keys Jr. <_jrkeys@concentric.net> !! > >As have I, apparently replying to a message that I just posted. It's now >in the bit bucket... > >-tony --- Jay R. Jaeger The Computer Collection cube1@home.com visit http://members.home.net/thecomputercollection From geneb at deltasoft.com Wed Nov 28 20:56:26 2001 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (Gene Buckle) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:11:37 2005 Subject: Ampro Littleboard problems.. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <000301c17881$70372120$09c7fec7@dionysus> I've got a Littleboard I'm tring to bring up. When I feed it a disk, and power it up, it will select the drive, spin it and shut down after about 3 to 5 seconds. I never hear a head step. Nothing shows up on the serial port (port a, 9600). The drive I'm using is a Teac FD-54B-02-U and the two jumpers are set to DS0 and IU. Ideas? Tnx! G. From edick at idcomm.com Wed Nov 28 22:48:41 2001 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:11:37 2005 Subject: Ampro Littleboard problems.. References: <000301c17881$70372120$09c7fec7@dionysus> Message-ID: <000701c17891$1eb8c0a0$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> Which model of Little Board? Dick ----- Original Message ----- From: "Gene Buckle" To: Sent: Wednesday, November 28, 2001 7:56 PM Subject: Ampro Littleboard problems.. > I've got a Littleboard I'm tring to bring up. When I feed it a disk, > and power it up, it will select the drive, spin it and shut down after > about 3 to 5 seconds. I never hear a head step. Nothing shows up on the > serial port (port a, 9600). The drive I'm using is a Teac FD-54B-02-U > and the two jumpers are set to DS0 and IU. > > Ideas? > > Tnx! > > G. > > From donm at cts.com Wed Nov 28 23:19:56 2001 From: donm at cts.com (Don Maslin) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:11:37 2005 Subject: Ampro Littleboard problems.. In-Reply-To: <000301c17881$70372120$09c7fec7@dionysus> Message-ID: On Wed, 28 Nov 2001, Gene Buckle wrote: > I've got a Littleboard I'm tring to bring up. When I feed it a disk, > and power it up, it will select the drive, spin it and shut down after > about 3 to 5 seconds. I never hear a head step. Nothing shows up on the > serial port (port a, 9600). The drive I'm using is a Teac FD-54B-02-U > and the two jumpers are set to DS0 and IU. I presume that is a typo and it really is an FD-55B. Is it terminated? I assume a straight cable since it is selected. The FD-55s that I use are jumpered DS0 (for straight cable), HS, IU, and SM on the two main jumper headers. PM is also jumpered on its own header. - don > Ideas? > > Tnx! > > G. > > From kevin at xpuppy.freeserve.co.uk Thu Nov 29 01:26:50 2001 From: kevin at xpuppy.freeserve.co.uk (Kevin Murrell) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:11:37 2005 Subject: PDP-8/E Powersupply (was: Re: DEC PC04/PR8E Question) In-Reply-To: <200111290015.fAT0FkZ05817@shell1.aracnet.com> Message-ID: You shouldn't really need to lubricate them. I assume you mean they are stiff to move? The line up of the front panel pcb, and the front fascia is quite tight, and it does take some time to get everyting lined up such that all the switches move easily. On my 8E and 8F machines for instance, the front panel card does not push fully down into the bus, but are slightly raised. It is one of those jobs where you need to leave everything loose, gently move the panels around until it lines up, and then screw it together with you third hand! Kevin -----Original Message----- From: owner-classiccmp@classiccmp.org [mailto:owner-classiccmp@classiccmp.org]On Behalf Of Zane H. Healy Sent: 29 November 2001 00:16 To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org Subject: PDP-8/E Powersupply (was: Re: DEC PC04/PR8E Question) Also, is there anyway to 'lubricate' the switches on the front panel? Zane From foo at siconic.com Thu Nov 29 04:31:26 2001 From: foo at siconic.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:11:37 2005 Subject: Is it a Lisa or Mac XL?! In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Wed, 28 Nov 2001, Chris wrote: > So by destroying them beyond hope... they remove them from the market > 100%. > > I personally think this is stupid, but hey, I don't run apple, and > they seem to have their own form of logic. This is not a practice unique to Apple. This is not even a practice unique to the computer industry. Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org From dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com Thu Nov 29 06:00:45 2001 From: dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com (Douglas Quebbeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:11:37 2005 Subject: Is it a Lisa or Mac XL?! Message-ID: <7A9BACCEF0171D4FB77019F5104CDD372259C0@jeffserver.tegjeff.com> > Scrapping them off the books for tax purposes, in all likelyhood. We > used to have to physically destroy our COMBOARDs before we could write > them off. If we were ever audited and happened to have product that > was logged as scrap, but hadn't been, we would have been in a world > of hurt from either the County Tax officials or perhaps the IRS. > > It sucks, but if you scrap hardware, you have to render it useless. IMHO, all you need to do is ensure there remains no evidence to the contrary... admittedly, it might get very difficult to have 10,000 units disappear with a wink and a handshake... -dq From dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com Thu Nov 29 06:01:47 2001 From: dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com (Douglas Quebbeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:11:37 2005 Subject: Is it a Lisa or Mac XL?! Message-ID: <7A9BACCEF0171D4FB77019F5104CDD372259C1@jeffserver.tegjeff.com> > > It sucks, but if you scrap hardware, you have to render it useless. > > Would installing Windoze on it qualify? That doesn't make it useless, just weighs it downlike a boat anchor... paint it grey, stick it in the bass boat. -dq From ip500 at home.com Thu Nov 29 06:06:52 2001 From: ip500 at home.com (Craig Smith) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:11:37 2005 Subject: Is it a Lisa or Mac XL?! References: Message-ID: <3C0624DC.B58F16CE@home.com> No, but it smacks of that unique term "demilitarize" that the US military is so fond of! I've seen them removing electronics with a cutting torch!! and just to make sure it's totaly unusable, dropping the radios out of the planes cockpit onto the runway. Or, my other favorite example .. at McDill AFB in Tampa, I watched an Airman knocking holes in the bottom of 5 gal gas cans prior to stacking them for auction ... very effective demilitarizion. Craig Sellam Ismail wrote: > > On Wed, 28 Nov 2001, Chris wrote: > > > So by destroying them beyond hope... they remove them from the market > > 100%. > > > > I personally think this is stupid, but hey, I don't run apple, and > > they seem to have their own form of logic. > > This is not a practice unique to Apple. This is not even a practice > unique to the computer industry. > > Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ > International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org From kentborg at borg.org Thu Nov 29 07:59:23 2001 From: kentborg at borg.org (Kent Borg) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:11:37 2005 Subject: Spam from _sring@uslink.net? In-Reply-To: ; from cisin@xenosoft.com on Wed, Nov 28, 2001 at 03:36:25PM -0800 References: Message-ID: <20011129085923.C3091@borg.org> On Wed, Nov 28, 2001 at 03:36:25PM -0800, Fred Cisin (XenoSoft) wrote: > This one, the "payload" was in: > README.mp3.scr > I've also gotten earlier today from other mails a couple with a payload > named: > SM3SONG.mp3.scr After feeling left out, I finally got a copy under the guise of "YOU_ARE_FAT!.MP3.scr". It was from a different mailing list. > And people can't understand why I would prefer PINE on a Unix shell > account over OUTLOOK (aka MS virus transfer protocol) Where I work there are all kinds of stupid restrictions--such as thinking that the internet consists of only e-mail and the web, and only having proxies to do those protocols. But there is nothing saying that Outlook or Javascript are dangerous, they are encouraged. I will concede, however, that I have not gotten this virus (yet) through my work e-mail. Their scanning at the servers sometimes works. -kb From vance at ikickass.org Thu Nov 29 08:40:51 2001 From: vance at ikickass.org (One Without Reason) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:11:37 2005 Subject: Macintosh Message-ID: Could someone tell me what the last version of Macintosh System to run on 68K machines was? Where can I get a copy? Peace... Sridhar From zmerch at 30below.com Thu Nov 29 08:43:04 2001 From: zmerch at 30below.com (Roger Merchberger) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:11:37 2005 Subject: Whittling down my collection... In-Reply-To: References: <200111280435.UAA09228@stockholm.ptloma.edu> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20011129091630.00acc678@mail.30below.com> Well, folks -- I'm waiting for word on a new house (well, an *old* new house - it was built somewhere around the turn of the last century) and I *seriously* need to whittle down my collection... I know I don't have time to skidingle with most of what I have, and I don't have time to meticulously catalog & ship everything myself, so everything that I'm getting rid of is mainly for the cost of professional packing & shipping... and maybe a buck or few, if the garage sale [car boot sale] tags are still on my "rescued" items... ;-) This is how it's going to work: I'm cleaning my basement out a little at a time, so there will only be a few things per post. For the first 24 hours after my post, if more than 1 person is really interested in the equipment, I'll random-number generate the winner, this is to give those with slower internet connections an equal chance of getting "da goods" -- after 24 hours, it's first come, first serve. If I get no responses in 1 week, it hits the dumpster. [sorry, but I have no choice -- no room in the "new" digs] I've already given away my Timex Sinclair 1000 stuff to my realtor (now, that was Kismet! ;-) and my coleco Adam stuff to my renter, (in the same day, no less!!! ;-) so they've got good homes. I'm also getting rid of my 8-bit Atari stuff, all my Commodore stuff, my TI 99/4a stuff, anything IBM compatible stuff, all my CP/M stuff ( I have 2 superbrains & 2 Heath/Zenith Z100's) ATLGO [and the list goes on...] Std. Disclaimer -- all stuff is sold as-is, no warranty... I am keeping all of my non-IBM compat. Tandy stuff, my Atari 16-bit stuff, my HP64000 (of course!) and my VAXen, and certain other tidbits, so I still have my work cut out for me... :-) Today, this is what I have: An external Wangtek 525Meg SCSI-1 tape drive [dunno if it's ezactly 10 years old, but it's durned close!] and 25 cartridges (and 2 empty cases) in "last known working" condition - I had it hooked up 3 or 4 years ago, and worked fine -- but no guarantees beyond that. Yours for the cost of packing & shipping. I'm having a hell of a time finding enough boxes for the stuff I'm keeping -- everything to go out is getting packed at the pack-n-ship place right next door to my business. "Let the experts deal with it... ;-)" And beware - they have to surcharge UPS/FedEx to keep the lights & heat on (and it's snowing here in Northern Michigan) so if you go to UPS/FedEx's website and say "you're overcharging me on shipping" I'll scan in the receipts for you & put them on a webpage for your perusal... ;-) I have no quibbles about shipping internationally... if you're willing to pay the price! (Well, if you live 30 minutes or less from Sault Ste. Marie Michigan, USA/Ontario, Canada, I'll deliver it personally... ;-) If anyone's willing to pick-up, that's always an option, as well -- quickie directions: Take I-75 north until you hit the US/Canadian border - there I am. If you're interested, email me with your zip code, and I'll go over to the pack-n-ship place, have it packed & find out the shipping cost... Thanks, and hopefully the dumpster won't get too much business from me... -- Roger "Merch" Merchberger --- sysadmin, Iceberg Computers Recycling is good, right??? Ok, so I'll recycle an *older* .sig. (circa 1997!) Why does Hershey's put nutritional information on their candy bar wrappers when there's no nutritional value within? From rigdonj at intellistar.net Thu Nov 29 08:54:16 2001 From: rigdonj at intellistar.net (Joe) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:11:37 2005 Subject: Question for HP 9826 owners In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20011129095416.007a7100@mailhost.intellistar.net> Chris, I've used the 9826 and other 9000 200s quite a bit so I may be able to help. At 02:28 PM 11/28/01 EST, you wrote: >I have the binaries for HP-9826 HPL. Copied them onto floppy disks, What did you copy them from? When you say that you have the binaries, what exactly do you mean? The only binaries that I've seen for the 9826 are the .BIN files that are used with BASIC. They're language extentions and device divers files that can be included in the main OS file or loaded separately. But HPL is a complete stand alone OS and it doesn't use .BIN files. >edited the file type directory entries with Lifutil and tried loading them. Why did you edit them? Lifutil is erratic. The problem is that HP used lots of different formats for LIF files and the file descriptor byte is loaded in different places in different LIF files and Lifutil can't find many of them so it doesn't accurately interpet the file structure therefore it frequently "scrambles" files. >I get the error message "unexpected use of FFFFFFC4" >Can anyone shed any light on this ? That's a common error message. I don't know exactly what it means but I've seen it on HP systems when you try to load an OS that doesn't match the machine that you have, such as HP-UX for a 9000/380 on a 9826. BTW does anyone know what System_HG might be? One of my drives displays that as a stored operating system but none of the machines that I have can load it (and I've tried it on lots of different HPs). I get the same "unexpected use of FFFFFFC4" message or something very similar. Note that in BASIC when you create your own OS by selectively adding .BIN files to it you can then save that OS back the drive and later it will display on the list of OSs and you can boot it directly. The point is that you can give it any name you want (but the given name affects wheather or not it displays as an OS) so the name may not have any significnace. Joe > >Best Regards >Chris Leyson From geneb at deltasoft.com Thu Nov 29 09:58:10 2001 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (Gene Buckle) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:11:37 2005 Subject: Ampro Littleboard problems.. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: > On Wed, 28 Nov 2001, Gene Buckle wrote: > > > I've got a Littleboard I'm tring to bring up. When I feed it a disk, > > and power it up, it will select the drive, spin it and shut down after > > about 3 to 5 seconds. I never hear a head step. Nothing shows up on the > > serial port (port a, 9600). The drive I'm using is a Teac FD-54B-02-U > > and the two jumpers are set to DS0 and IU. > > I presume that is a typo and it really is an FD-55B. Is it terminated? > I assume a straight cable since it is selected. The FD-55s that I use > are jumpered DS0 (for straight cable), HS, IU, and SM on the two main > jumper headers. PM is also jumpered on its own header. > Don, the number on the back of the drive really is FD-54B. As far as termination, I don't know. There is no place for what I would call a "traditional" floppy termination pack. There is a SIP resistor soldered into the board right ahead of the data connector. I don't have the drive in front of me now, but I don't recall seeing "SM" as being a jumper position. I do recall the "HS" labelling however. I don't recall anything marked "PM" at all. Thanks! g. From dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com Thu Nov 29 09:21:39 2001 From: dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com (Douglas Quebbeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:11:37 2005 Subject: Macintosh Message-ID: <7A9BACCEF0171D4FB77019F5104CDD372259C8@jeffserver.tegjeff.com> > Could someone tell me what the last version of Macintosh System to run on > 68K machines was? Where can I get a copy? That would be System 6.0.8, and you should be abe to download it from Apple's FTP site. Try navigating through the stuff at http://mirror.apple.com/. -dq From Adrian.Graham at corporatemicrosystems.com Thu Nov 29 09:31:11 2001 From: Adrian.Graham at corporatemicrosystems.com (Adrian Graham) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:11:37 2005 Subject: Macintosh Message-ID: <556916EBC364D511826400508B9A1ADE0218FC@cmlpdc.corporatemicrosystems.com> > -----Original Message----- > From: One Without Reason [mailto:vance@ikickass.org] > Sent: 29 November 2001 14:41 > To: Classic Computers Mailing List > Subject: Macintosh > > > > Could someone tell me what the last version of Macintosh > System to run on > 68K machines was? Where can I get a copy? According to LowEndMac it's either 7.6.1 or 8.1 depending on the machine.... -- Adrian Graham, Corporate Microsystems Ltd e: adrian.graham@corporatemicrosystems.com w: www.corporatemicrosystems.com w2: www.binarydinosaurs.co.uk (Online Computer Museum) From hansp at aconit.org Thu Nov 29 09:48:13 2001 From: hansp at aconit.org (Hans B Pufal) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:11:37 2005 Subject: Concise list of different Mac models Message-ID: <3C0658BD.7090308@aconit.org> Hi there, Does anyone know of a web page which list all the different Mac models showing basic specs like processer and speed, memory and disk sizes? I keep seeing Macs in the stores but can't keep all the model names and numbers straight so a one or two sheet list describing them would be very useful. If no-one comes up with this I may just make one up from the Apple Spec Database - in that case I'd like to know what key spec items should be listed. -- hbp From edick at idcomm.com Thu Nov 29 09:44:52 2001 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:11:37 2005 Subject: Ampro Littleboard problems.. References: Message-ID: <002001c178ec$c985f920$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> Though there are many "Little Board" products from Ampro, the ones I have, which are the originals from back in '83 or so, will produce a prompt if you (1) have no floppy attached, or (2) don't have a diskette in it. If it's not producing that prompt, I'd say you need to look elsewhere than the floppy drive. Aside from single-sided drives, I've never encountered a 48TPI drive that this machine wouldn't boot once it's jumpered for DS0. Nevertheless, if it's not producing the prompt, something's seriously wrong. There aren't many parts that could be broken, but perhaps you should look into which one it might be. My experience has been that if it doesn't produce that prompt, it won't boot under any circumstances. Dick ----- Original Message ----- From: "Gene Buckle" To: Sent: Thursday, November 29, 2001 8:58 AM Subject: Re: Ampro Littleboard problems.. > > On Wed, 28 Nov 2001, Gene Buckle wrote: > > > > > I've got a Littleboard I'm tring to bring up. When I feed it a disk, > > > and power it up, it will select the drive, spin it and shut down after > > > about 3 to 5 seconds. I never hear a head step. Nothing shows up on the > > > serial port (port a, 9600). The drive I'm using is a Teac FD-54B-02-U > > > and the two jumpers are set to DS0 and IU. > > > > I presume that is a typo and it really is an FD-55B. Is it terminated? > > I assume a straight cable since it is selected. The FD-55s that I use > > are jumpered DS0 (for straight cable), HS, IU, and SM on the two main > > jumper headers. PM is also jumpered on its own header. > > > > Don, the number on the back of the drive really is FD-54B. As far as > termination, I don't know. There is no place for what I would call a > "traditional" floppy termination pack. There is a SIP resistor soldered > into the board right ahead of the data connector. I don't have the drive > in front of me now, but I don't recall seeing "SM" as being a jumper > position. I do recall the "HS" labelling however. > > I don't recall anything marked "PM" at all. > > Thanks! > > g. > > > From dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com Thu Nov 29 10:09:01 2001 From: dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com (Douglas Quebbeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:11:37 2005 Subject: Macintosh Message-ID: <7A9BACCEF0171D4FB77019F5104CDD372259CA@jeffserver.tegjeff.com> > > Could someone tell me what the last version of Macintosh > > System to run on 68K machines was? Where can I get a copy? > > According to LowEndMac it's either 7.6.1 or 8.1 depending on > the machine.... Adrian's right, I read Sridhar's message wrong... -dq From rhblakeman at kih.net Thu Nov 29 10:11:10 2001 From: rhblakeman at kih.net (Russ Blakeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:11:37 2005 Subject: Macintosh In-Reply-To: Message-ID: I had a Quadra 650 that runs a 68040 and it ran 8.2 fine, never tried more than that but rumor has it that it would run 9.0 I bought 8.2 new int he box on ebay for mine, not sure of a download site. There is info on aspects of Macs at everymac.com that might be of use to you. -> -----Original Message----- -> From: owner-classiccmp@classiccmp.org -> Behalf Of One Without Reason -> Sent: Thursday, November 29, 2001 8:41 AM -> To: Classic Computers Mailing List -> Subject: Macintosh -> -> -> -> Could someone tell me what the last version of Macintosh System to run on -> 68K machines was? Where can I get a copy? -> -> Peace... Sridhar -> -> From rhblakeman at kih.net Thu Nov 29 10:11:11 2001 From: rhblakeman at kih.net (Russ Blakeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:11:37 2005 Subject: Martha Stewart In-Reply-To: <000e01c1787d$7c832860$21fe54a6@ibm23xhr06> Message-ID: Surprised she didn't preach using them as decorative items - a "good thing" -> -----Original Message----- -> From: owner-classiccmp@classiccmp.org -> [mailto:owner-classiccmp@classiccmp.org]On Behalf Of John Allain -> Sent: Wednesday, November 28, 2001 8:28 PM -> To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org -> Subject: Martha Stewart -> -> -> Martha Stewart had a short radio column today -> where She actually preached the ethics of classiccmpers. -> That is, what do you do with old computers? Number 1 -> was don't toss it (yes), until you check with your local schools, -> even if you are sure it is obsolete (yes), if you can't place -> it this way, she continues by mentioning that some people -> actually collect them as vintage (yes), and then brings up -> eBay as a sort of last resort (sorry). -> -> Good press that we all need. -> -> John A. -> Project Greenkeys. -> -> From fernande at internet1.net Thu Nov 29 10:25:20 2001 From: fernande at internet1.net (Chad Fernandez) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:11:37 2005 Subject: Whittling down my collection... References: <200111280435.UAA09228@stockholm.ptloma.edu> <5.1.0.14.2.20011129091630.00acc678@mail.30below.com> Message-ID: <3C066170.88AADAF5@internet1.net> Snow? yuck..... please don't let any escape to Southwest Michigan! Chad Fernandez Michigan, USA Roger Merchberger wrote: > "Let the experts deal with it... ;-)" And beware - they have to surcharge > UPS/FedEx to keep the lights & heat on (and it's snowing here in Northern > Michigan) > Roger "Merch" Merchberger --- sysadmin, Iceberg Computers From jrasite at eoni.com Thu Nov 29 10:30:19 2001 From: jrasite at eoni.com (Jim Arnott) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:11:37 2005 Subject: Concise list of different Mac models References: <3C0658BD.7090308@aconit.org> Message-ID: <3C066296.20F116B@eoni.com> try Jim From dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com Thu Nov 29 10:34:25 2001 From: dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com (Douglas Quebbeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:11:37 2005 Subject: Concise list of different Mac models Message-ID: <7A9BACCEF0171D4FB77019F5104CDD372259CC@jeffserver.tegjeff.com> > Hi there, > > Does anyone know of a web page which list all the different Mac models > showing basic specs like processer and speed, memory and disk sizes? > > I keep seeing Macs in the stores but can't keep all the model names and > numbers straight so a one or two sheet list describing them would be > very useful. > > If no-one comes up with this I may just make one up from the Apple Spec > Database - in that case I'd like to know what key spec items should be > listed. That's what I did- just print out AppleSpec into book form. -dq From hansp at aconit.org Thu Nov 29 10:49:43 2001 From: hansp at aconit.org (Hans B Pufal) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:11:37 2005 Subject: History of Computing exam question : Message-ID: <3C066727.30408@aconit.org> Your are charged with arranging an exhibition to illustrate the history of computing. Due to a sufficiently advanced technology you can recover any historical machine or artifact without cost. List the 20 to 30 systems you would display and briefly explain the reason for choosing each. -- hbp : just for fun ;) From fernande at internet1.net Thu Nov 29 10:56:54 2001 From: fernande at internet1.net (Chad Fernandez) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:11:37 2005 Subject: Martha Stewart References: Message-ID: <3C0668D6.BAE5AAF0@internet1.net> That's kind of weird, I wouldn't have thought Martha Stewart would even consider computers to be in her realm of influence. I've actually though of painting a computer using Martha Stewartish techniques...... like stamping or rag rolling or maybe some of that stone fleck stuff. I haven't done it yet, Though. It will still be a functioning computer, just a little more creative. Chad Fernandez Michigan, USA Russ Blakeman wrote: > > Surprised she didn't preach using them as decorative items - a "good thing" > > -> > -> Martha Stewart had a short radio column today > -> where She actually preached the ethics of classiccmpers. > -> That is, what do you do with old computers? Number 1 > -> was don't toss it (yes), until you check with your local schools, > -> even if you are sure it is obsolete (yes), if you can't place > -> it this way, she continues by mentioning that some people > -> actually collect them as vintage (yes), and then brings up > -> eBay as a sort of last resort (sorry). > -> > -> Good press that we all need. > -> > -> John A. > -> Project Greenkeys. > -> > -> From whdawson at mlynk.com Thu Nov 29 11:03:16 2001 From: whdawson at mlynk.com (Bill Dawson) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:11:37 2005 Subject: Spam from _sring@uslink.net? In-Reply-To: <20011129085923.C3091@borg.org> Message-ID: S. Ring, IIRC, is Stephanie Ring. She is/was a list member. I'm using Outlook 2000 with the latest Microslop patches/security updates and the latest version of ZoneAlarm, 2.6.357, so I avoided infection. Since the attachment was quarantined, the email I received has a seemingly blank body and no apparent attachment. The subject line is: Re: RE: SWTPc and Microdata (WARNING - LONG EMAIL STILL), which is a reply to an email I sent over a year ago to Jay West (hello, Jay), which he replied to by sending a new email with a different subject line. I'm guessing that Jay still had my original unreplied to email? Checking the properties of the this email does show "size: 30KB (Contains 1 included file(s))". And, here's the header from the email, however I xz-munged the email addresses. Note the underscore in the "From:": Return-Path: Received: from opal.tseinc.com (opal.tseinc.com [209.83.143.19]) by mlynk.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id VAA14949 for ; Wed, 28 Nov 2001 21:59:38 -0500 Received: from aol.com (user@stl-26.tseinc.com [209.83.137.26]) by opal.tseinc.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id TAA73484 for ; Wed, 28 Nov 2001 19:36:03 -0600 (CST) (envelope-from xwest@xtseinc.com) Date: Wed, 28 Nov 2001 19:36:03 -0600 (CST) Message-Id: <200111290136.TAA73484@opal.tseinc.com> From: "Jay West" <_xwest@xtseinc.com> To: zwhdawson@mlynkz.com Subject: Re: RE: SWTPc and Microdata (WARNING - LONG EMAIL STILL) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/related; type="multipart/alternative"; boundary="====_ABC1234567890DEF_====" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Unsent: 1 Status: My sister wasn't so lucky in avoiding the hit, so I'll have to go clean up her system. The infected email in her case came from an eBay user. BTW, FWIW, S. Ring is or was an eBay member. 'til next time, Bill -> On Wed, Nov 28, 2001 at 03:36:25PM -0800, Fred Cisin (XenoSoft) wrote: -> > This one, the "payload" was in: -> > README.mp3.scr -> > I've also gotten earlier today from other mails a couple with a payload -> > named: -> > SM3SONG.mp3.scr From hansp at aconit.org Thu Nov 29 11:10:31 2001 From: hansp at aconit.org (Hans B Pufal) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:11:37 2005 Subject: Concise list of different Mac models References: <3C0658BD.7090308@aconit.org> <3C066296.20F116B@eoni.com> Message-ID: <3C066C07.7030102@aconit.org> Jim Arnott wrote: > try Perhasp I'm missing it, but this seems like the other site, lots of useful information, but no complete, concise listing on a single page -- hbp From george at racsys.rt.rain.com Thu Nov 29 11:08:38 2001 From: george at racsys.rt.rain.com (George Leo Rachor Jr.) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:11:37 2005 Subject: Martha Stewart In-Reply-To: <3C0668D6.BAE5AAF0@internet1.net> Message-ID: Her column the day before was about cleaning the computer (outside only)... George Rachor ========================================================= George L. Rachor Jr. george@rachors.com Hillsboro, Oregon http://rachors.com United States of America Amateur Radio : KD7DCX On Thu, 29 Nov 2001, Chad Fernandez wrote: > That's kind of weird, I wouldn't have thought Martha Stewart would even > consider computers to be in her realm of influence. > > I've actually though of painting a computer using Martha Stewartish > techniques...... like stamping or rag rolling or maybe some of that > stone fleck stuff. I haven't done it yet, Though. It will still be a > functioning computer, just a little more creative. > > Chad Fernandez > Michigan, USA > > Russ Blakeman wrote: > > > > Surprised she didn't preach using them as decorative items - a "good thing" > > > > -> > > -> Martha Stewart had a short radio column today > > -> where She actually preached the ethics of classiccmpers. > > -> That is, what do you do with old computers? Number 1 > > -> was don't toss it (yes), until you check with your local schools, > > -> even if you are sure it is obsolete (yes), if you can't place > > -> it this way, she continues by mentioning that some people > > -> actually collect them as vintage (yes), and then brings up > > -> eBay as a sort of last resort (sorry). > > -> > > -> Good press that we all need. > > -> > > -> John A. > > -> Project Greenkeys. > > -> > > -> > From menadeau at mediaone.net Thu Nov 29 11:14:02 2001 From: menadeau at mediaone.net (Michael Nadeau) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:11:37 2005 Subject: Martha Stewart References: <3C0668D6.BAE5AAF0@internet1.net> Message-ID: <020c01c178f9$41896e00$0b01a8c0@ValuedCustomer> A couple of years ago, she dated Charles Simonyi, chief software architect of Microsoft and former Xerox PARC scientist who wrote the first WYSIWYG word processor. Maybe that's where she gets it. --Mike Michael Nadeau Editorial Services 603-893-2379 ----- Original Message ----- From: "Chad Fernandez" To: Sent: Thursday, November 29, 2001 11:56 AM Subject: Re: Martha Stewart > That's kind of weird, I wouldn't have thought Martha Stewart would even > consider computers to be in her realm of influence. > > I've actually though of painting a computer using Martha Stewartish > techniques...... like stamping or rag rolling or maybe some of that > stone fleck stuff. I haven't done it yet, Though. It will still be a > functioning computer, just a little more creative. > > Chad Fernandez > Michigan, USA > > Russ Blakeman wrote: > > > > Surprised she didn't preach using them as decorative items - a "good thing" > > > > -> > > -> Martha Stewart had a short radio column today > > -> where She actually preached the ethics of classiccmpers. > > -> That is, what do you do with old computers? Number 1 > > -> was don't toss it (yes), until you check with your local schools, > > -> even if you are sure it is obsolete (yes), if you can't place > > -> it this way, she continues by mentioning that some people > > -> actually collect them as vintage (yes), and then brings up > > -> eBay as a sort of last resort (sorry). > > -> > > -> Good press that we all need. > > -> > > -> John A. > > -> Project Greenkeys. > > -> > > -> > From jss at subatomix.com Thu Nov 29 11:41:56 2001 From: jss at subatomix.com (Jeffrey S. Sharp) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:11:37 2005 Subject: Concise list of different Mac models In-Reply-To: <3C0658BD.7090308@aconit.org> Message-ID: <20011129114120.O43586-100000@lepton.subatomix.com> On Thu, 29 Nov 2001, Hans B Pufal wrote: > Does anyone know of a web page which list all the different Mac models > showing basic specs like processer and speed, memory and disk sizes? Add pictures, too. -- Jeffrey S. Sharp jss@subatomix.com From jss at subatomix.com Thu Nov 29 11:46:01 2001 From: jss at subatomix.com (Jeffrey S. Sharp) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:11:37 2005 Subject: Whittling down my collection... In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20011129091630.00acc678@mail.30below.com> Message-ID: <20011129114252.L43586-100000@lepton.subatomix.com> On Thu, 29 Nov 2001, Roger Merchberger wrote: > Well, folks -- I'm waiting for word on a new house (well, an *old* new > house - it was built somewhere around the turn of the last century) > and I *seriously* need to whittle down my collection... I am sorry that you must do that. I will, of course, do my part to help you by offering to take a few things as they become available. :-) I wish you good luck in moving; it is one of the most dreaded tasks of a classiccmper. -- Jeffrey S. Sharp jss@subatomix.com From jhellige at earthlink.net Thu Nov 29 10:47:50 2001 From: jhellige at earthlink.net (Jeff Hellige) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:11:37 2005 Subject: Concise list of different Mac models In-Reply-To: <3C0658BD.7090308@aconit.org> References: <3C0658BD.7090308@aconit.org> Message-ID: <01Nov29.130013est.119134@gateway.mediacen.navy.mil> >If no-one comes up with this I may just make one up from the Apple >Spec Database - in that case I'd like to know what key spec items >should be listed. That's probably what I would do, as there's even a version to run under Windows at: http://homepage.mac.com/applespec/ It has all the information you're looking for, just not on a single page broken down by model and specs. Jeff -- Home of the TRS-80 Model 2000 FAQ File http://www.cchaven.com http://www.geocities.com/siliconvalley/lakes/6757 From healyzh at aracnet.com Thu Nov 29 11:52:06 2001 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:11:37 2005 Subject: Martha Stewart In-Reply-To: References: <000e01c1787d$7c832860$21fe54a6@ibm23xhr06> Message-ID: >Surprised she didn't preach using them as decorative items - a "good thing" You mean you don't use some of yours as decorative items or furnature? :^) Zane -- | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator | | healyzh@aracnet.com (primary) | OpenVMS Enthusiast | | | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | PDP-10 Emulation and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | From mythtech at Mac.com Thu Nov 29 12:01:48 2001 From: mythtech at Mac.com (Chris) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:11:37 2005 Subject: Macintosh Message-ID: >Could someone tell me what the last version of Macintosh System to run on >68K machines was? Where can I get a copy? Varies with the machine. Which 68k processor (68000, 020, 030, 040), 32 bit clean? The best place to find out what the last supported OS is, is check the apple spec database. Down at the bottom of each mac's listing is a list of supported OS versions. Supported is a key term here, some can use versions that are not supported, but you use them at your own risk. And don't assume similar machines will always support the same OSes. For instance, the Centris/Quadra 610 lists 8.0 as the last supported OS, but other 040 machines like the Quadra 605 (a machine that is actually a step down from the 610), can support 8.1. I can tell you from experience, the 610 will accept an 8.1 install, and will even run for some time... but you will eventually find that the finder will drag to a halt (even scrolling a window will cause the watch to spin longer and longer, finally topping out at about 5 minutes of spinning). And it will eventually corrupt the hard drive. So for the 610, stop at 8.0, but the 605 can go to 8.1 safely. You really need to check the spec database on a machine by machine basis. And even then, it might pay to think about it, ie: my Classic II can support 7.6.1, but it runs faster and smoother, and uses less RAM if I stop at 7.5.5. A general rule of thumb is, 6.0.8 for < 1mb Mac's, 7.5.5 for all other 68000, 7.6.1 for 020's and 030's, and 8.1 for 040's. But there are the flukes in there like the Centris/Quadra 610, so just check before you install. As for getting them, System 6.0.8 (the last pre 7 version) is available on Apple's web site for free. So is System 7.5.5. Anything newer you will need to find used somewhere (many mac resellers have old OS CDs for sale cheap... or just ask a friend that has a version to dupe it for you, short of OS 9 and X, Apple probably won't care... but you do that at your own risk, they might care, who knows). Older OS versions (pre 6) used to be available on Apple's FTP site if you dug around, but I am not sure they are still there. And as a silly aside... has anyone ever tried running OS 7.0.1P on a 128k Mac? According to Apple's Spec database, that is the last supported version for the 128k... I have always wondered if it is a typo, or if it really can run System 7 (someday maybe I will try it with mine) -chris From dmc!njc Thu Nov 29 12:47:50 2001 From: dmc!njc (dmc!njc) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:11:37 2005 Subject: Martha Stewart In-Reply-To: from "Zane H. Healy" at Nov 29, 2001 09:52:06 AM Message-ID: <200111291847.NAA18572@CC47532-A.ewndsr1.nj.home.com> Zane H. Healy > >>Surprised she didn't preach using them as decorative items - a "good thing" > >You mean you don't use some of yours as decorative items or furnature? :^) Actually I'd like to find a nice way to hid various components so that they don't show up at first glance. Of course this is related to my HA background (hobby of course) and the fact that if I had a PDP 8 it would look a little out of place in my living room (I've got the garage and a computer for my 'stuff'). -- Linux Home Automation Neil Cherry ncherry@home.net http://members.home.net/ncherry (Text only) http://linuxha.sourceforge.net/ (SourceForge) http://hcs.sourceforge.net/ (HCS II) From erd_6502 at yahoo.com Thu Nov 29 12:38:55 2001 From: erd_6502 at yahoo.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:11:37 2005 Subject: Scrapping hardware to get it off the books (RE: Is it a Lisa or Mac XL?!) In-Reply-To: <7A9BACCEF0171D4FB77019F5104CDD372259C0@jeffserver.tegjeff.com> Message-ID: <20011129183855.32315.qmail@web20102.mail.yahoo.com> --- Douglas Quebbeman wrote: > > Scrapping them off the books for tax purposes, in all likelyhood. > > > > It sucks, but if you scrap hardware, you have to render it useless. > > IMHO, all you need to do is ensure there remains no evidence to > the contrary... admittedly, it might get very difficult to have > 10,000 units disappear with a wink and a handshake... But the risks... DEC got in some hot water over their scrapping procedures... they took bids, by the pound, for defective product that was deemed not worth fixing after assembly. They expected the scrapper to reclaim the metals. The problem was that the scrapper was cherry-picking valuable chips/boards out of defective assemblies and repairing/selling them as "used", _then_ reclaiming the metals on the remainder. The scrapper would inflate the bid, expecting to make up the difference on the diversionary sales. When supposedly scrapped S/Ns began appearing on the used market, as I was told, DEC learned of the scheme, and, without telling the bidding scrappers, installed a chipper to convert the material to pieces no larger than about 5cm on a side, steel racks included. I heard the next scrapper was most surprised when he big on a load of scrap that really was a load of scrap. __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! GeoCities - quick and easy web site hosting, just $8.95/month. http://geocities.yahoo.com/ps/info1 From erd_6502 at yahoo.com Thu Nov 29 12:46:55 2001 From: erd_6502 at yahoo.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:11:37 2005 Subject: 5.25" low-capacity hard disks (was Re: Is it a Lisa or Mac XL?!) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20011129184655.37589.qmail@web20105.mail.yahoo.com> --- Tony Duell wrote: > > > > Jeff, > > > > The ST506 is a standard MFM drive... > > I beliueve that in the Apple Profile, only the ST506 HDA (and maybe the > spindle motor board) is used. The standard control board is not. Instead > there's an Apple board that connectes directly to the index sensor, > cylinder 0 sensor, stepper motor, and heads. It's reasons like this that I buy the old 5.25" mechs I see. I was profoundly disappointed this year when I bought a Tandon TM602S (as found in a Commodore D9060 hard disk) for $5, only to find that all the fine wires that enter and exit the HDA have been snipped. The board is there, but there is no harness to plug into it. I suppose I can test the board on one of the TM602S drives I have that work and put it in the appropriate pile as a spare for the future. I have less confidence I could restore the harness. I suppose that if I have a head-crash someday, I could plunder its wiring, but there'd be the risk that the wiring was removed because _that_ had already happened to the previous owner. I was stoked because the last time I even saw a TM602S for sale, it was $30 and I had to pay $70 to have it rebuilt (bad track 0 sensor and platters in dubious shape) Mind you, this was 9+ years ago, back when people _did_ have HDAs rebuilt and a 20Mb MFM disk cost a lot more than $50. Formatting problems aside, the DEC RD50 is an ST-506 mech. It'd be a tough choice for me to repair a Profile with a DEC drive. I'd have less of a problem pulling an ST-506 drive from an XT to do it. Not as special. -ethan __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! GeoCities - quick and easy web site hosting, just $8.95/month. http://geocities.yahoo.com/ps/info1 From foo at siconic.com Thu Nov 29 12:45:17 2001 From: foo at siconic.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:11:37 2005 Subject: Concise list of different Mac models In-Reply-To: <3C0658BD.7090308@aconit.org> Message-ID: On Thu, 29 Nov 2001, Hans B Pufal wrote: > Does anyone know of a web page which list all the different Mac models > showing basic specs like processer and speed, memory and disk sizes? Try http://www.everymac.com Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org From bpope at wordstock.com Thu Nov 29 13:01:27 2001 From: bpope at wordstock.com (Bryan Pope) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:11:37 2005 Subject: Martha Stewart In-Reply-To: <020c01c178f9$41896e00$0b01a8c0@ValuedCustomer> from "Michael Nadeau" at Nov 29, 01 12:14:02 pm Message-ID: <200111291901.OAA04907@wordstock.com> O! And I was going to say maybe she is a closet classic computer user.. ;) -Bryan > > A couple of years ago, she dated Charles Simonyi, chief software architect > of Microsoft and former Xerox PARC scientist who wrote the first WYSIWYG > word processor. Maybe that's where she gets it. > > > That's kind of weird, I wouldn't have thought Martha Stewart would even > > consider computers to be in her realm of influence. > > > > I've actually though of painting a computer using Martha Stewartish > > techniques...... like stamping or rag rolling or maybe some of that > > stone fleck stuff. I haven't done it yet, Though. It will still be a > > functioning computer, just a little more creative. > > > > Chad Fernandez > > Michigan, USA > > > > Russ Blakeman wrote: > > > > > > Surprised she didn't preach using them as decorative items - a "good > thing" > > > > > > -> > > > -> Martha Stewart had a short radio column today > > > -> where She actually preached the ethics of classiccmpers. > > > -> That is, what do you do with old computers? Number 1 > > > -> was don't toss it (yes), until you check with your local schools, > > > -> even if you are sure it is obsolete (yes), if you can't place > > > -> it this way, she continues by mentioning that some people > > > -> actually collect them as vintage (yes), and then brings up > > > -> eBay as a sort of last resort (sorry). > > > -> > > > -> Good press that we all need. > > > -> > > > -> John A. > > > -> Project Greenkeys. > > > -> > > > -> > > > > From cmurillo at emtelsa.multi.net.co Thu Nov 29 13:00:54 2001 From: cmurillo at emtelsa.multi.net.co (Carlos Murillo) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:11:37 2005 Subject: Spam from _sring@uslink.net? In-Reply-To: <20011129085923.C3091@borg.org> References: Message-ID: <3.0.2.32.20011129140054.0180075c@obregon.multi.net.co> At 08:59 AM 11/29/01 -0500, you wrote: >After feeling left out, I finally got a copy under the guise of >"YOU_ARE_FAT!.MP3.scr". It was from a different mailing list. Got that one too. -------------------------------------------------------------- Carlos E. Murillo-Sanchez carlos_murillo@nospammers.ieee.org From cmurillo at emtelsa.multi.net.co Thu Nov 29 13:03:44 2001 From: cmurillo at emtelsa.multi.net.co (Carlos Murillo) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:11:37 2005 Subject: Macintosh In-Reply-To: <556916EBC364D511826400508B9A1ADE0218FC@cmlpdc.corporatemic rosystems.com> Message-ID: <3.0.2.32.20011129140344.018007c0@obregon.multi.net.co> At 03:31 PM 11/29/01 -0000, you wrote: >> Could someone tell me what the last version of Macintosh >> System to run on >> 68K machines was? Where can I get a copy? > >According to LowEndMac it's either 7.6.1 or 8.1 depending on the machine.... > >-- >Adrian Graham, Corporate Microsystems Ltd 8.1 is right, but you need a 68040. carlos. -------------------------------------------------------------- Carlos E. Murillo-Sanchez carlos_murillo@nospammers.ieee.org From dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com Thu Nov 29 13:06:33 2001 From: dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com (Douglas Quebbeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:11:37 2005 Subject: Adobe Loss in California District Court, Good News for ClassicCmp rs Message-ID: <7A9BACCEF0171D4FB77019F5104CDD372259D2@jeffserver.tegjeff.com> I'm not sure how many of you have seen this yet, but Adobe has lost a suit regarding the transferrability of software licenses. The court has rules that even if the wording of a license specifically prohibits the resale of the software by the original buyer to a new owner, the original owner is within their rights in doing so. Of course, without a doubt, Adobe will likely appeal this at least as far as the California Supreme Court. We can only hope they'll lose there as well. Should this ultimately hold true, much old classic software for our classic computers will be available from old licensees who no longer need the licenses. Some license holders may still not feel comfortable with this, fearing some potential liability. But it still sounds good for us collectors. For those of you who own firms who license software to clients, I hope you can look beyond the tiny loss of revenue this might possibily represent. -dq From dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com Thu Nov 29 13:10:10 2001 From: dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com (Douglas Quebbeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:11:37 2005 Subject: Martha Stewart Message-ID: <7A9BACCEF0171D4FB77019F5104CDD372259D3@jeffserver.tegjeff.com> > A couple of years ago, she dated Charles Simonyi, chief software architect > of Microsoft and former Xerox PARC scientist who wrote the first WYSIWYG > word processor. Maybe that's where she gets it. That's the most interesting gossip I've heard all year! Hungarian notation meets Homemaker nation... -dq From jhellige at earthlink.net Thu Nov 29 12:14:56 2001 From: jhellige at earthlink.net (Jeff Hellige) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:11:37 2005 Subject: Concise list of different Mac models In-Reply-To: <01Nov29.130013est.119134@gateway.mediacen.navy.mil> References: <3C0658BD.7090308@aconit.org> <01Nov29.130013est.119134@gateway.mediacen.navy.mil> Message-ID: <01Nov29.142719est.119085@gateway.mediacen.navy.mil> >>If no-one comes up with this I may just make one up from the Apple >>Spec Database - in that case I'd like to know what key spec items >>should be listed. > > That's probably what I would do, as there's even a version to >run under Windows at: > > http://homepage.mac.com/applespec/ > > It has all the information you're looking for, just not on a >single page broken down by model and specs. Oooops...I know, I shouldn't reply to myself but the above link should be: http://www.applespec.com/ The downloadable versions, plus mirrors, are located there. Jeff -- Home of the TRS-80 Model 2000 FAQ File http://www.cchaven.com http://www.geocities.com/siliconvalley/lakes/6757 From lgwalker at mts.net Thu Nov 29 13:26:10 2001 From: lgwalker at mts.net (Lawrence Walker) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:11:37 2005 Subject: S. Ring has badtrans virus In-Reply-To: <01Nov28.103740est.119201@gateway.mediacen.navy.mil> References: Message-ID: <3C063772.8583.4FEDE57@localhost> I got it as well this a.m. It used the "re: re: a2gs on harddisk30 thread. I use Pegasus and don't open attachments or fomatted msgs which occasionally also turn up on the list. Curious, I attempted to "View" the audio docs/doc.pif file and stupidly pressed "Open" instead. It ran and I got several out of memory windows and an illegal operation/close program one. My Norton came up blank since, of course, it's a new virus. Checked my classiccmp folder and saw Allisons heads-up which gave the identity. The Sophus site descibed it and how to remove it. Searched my HD and sure enough kernel32.exe and kdll.dll were there. They have to be removed by dos since they're locked in Windoze. It also usually puts an entry in the registry according to Sophus, but wasn't in mine since I hadn't opened it by the usual route or something. What a pain in the butt. Sophus says it's the top worm at present. lawrence > > It was sent to me 'personally', ie not as a classiccmp post. Since it > >was an unsolicited attachment from an unacknowledged source, it filed it > >in /dev/nul. > > I got it as well but followed the same logic you did. I also > received the virus once over the weekend as well, but it wasn't from > a list subscriber. I don't use Outlook on my Mac's and don't have > autopreview turned on when I'm using it under NT. > > Jeff > -- > Home of the TRS-80 Model 2000 FAQ File > http://www.cchaven.com > http://www.geocities.com/siliconvalley/lakes/6757 Reply to: lgwalker@mts.net From healyzh at aracnet.com Thu Nov 29 13:26:26 2001 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:11:37 2005 Subject: PDP-8/E PowerSupply Part 2 Message-ID: OK, I got brave and flipped the switch and started testing voltages with everything disconnected. I've got a H724 PS and everything looks good except the +8Vdc line which is for powering the light bulbs on the front panel, and the 14Vac. The +8Vdc should be between 6-10Vdc according to Volume 1 of the maintenance manual, and it's currently at 11.14Vdc. The 14Vac looks like it might be even more messed up, as I'm getting 8.95Vac on one line and 19.26Vac on the other, but it doesn't look to be used. Now for everything except the +8Vdc and 14Vac everything looks to be adjustable. So, is there anything I can tweak on this, or should I just not worry about it? I really don't want to be blowing lightbulbs if I can help it. Zane -- | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator | | healyzh@aracnet.com (primary) | OpenVMS Enthusiast | | | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | PDP-10 Emulation and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | From dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com Thu Nov 29 13:26:11 2001 From: dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com (Douglas Quebbeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:11:38 2005 Subject: Scrapping hardware to get it off the books (RE: Is it a Lisa or Mac XL?!) Message-ID: <7A9BACCEF0171D4FB77019F5104CDD372259D5@jeffserver.tegjeff.com> > When supposedly scrapped S/Ns began appearing on the used market, > as I was told, DEC learned of the scheme, and, without telling the > bidding scrappers, installed a chipper to convert the material > to pieces no larger than about 5cm on a side, steel racks included. > I heard the next scrapper was most surprised when he big on a load of > scrap that really was a load of scrap. This brings me to a question that's probably been discussed here; I just recently found the local computer recycling firm. I was luck enought to pull two late-model Apple //e's from a cardboard box sitting in front of the business during the Thanksgiving holiday. Also two Apple 5.25 inch flopppies, a 130MB Seagate IDE drive, a 550MB (?) Seagate IDE drive, and a rather nice late-model compact IBM keyboard (has Windows key). But the firm had some interesting stuff in the fenced-in yard. Should I even bother going back and asking to see the stuff in the yard? Or, has this firm agreed not to resell anything (I'm kinda assuming that what's true for this guy is industry standard). -dq From mythtech at Mac.com Thu Nov 29 13:27:27 2001 From: mythtech at Mac.com (Chris) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:11:38 2005 Subject: Martha Stewart Message-ID: >Actually I'd like to find a nice way to hid various components so that >they don't show up at first glance. Of course this is related to my HA >background (hobby of course) and the fact that if I had a PDP 8 it >would look a little out of place in my living room (I've got the >garage and a computer for my 'stuff'). I started once turning a PowerMac 7200 into a picture. I got as far as framing the board, and mounting the HD to the back of the frame. The power supply was going to go on the floor, with the cables running down the back of the frame, and into the wall (to pop back out at floor level). I stopped because I was going to have to make some strange angled connectors (kind of elongated 180's) to get things to run where I wanted... and it started to become too much effort... so now I am useing the 7200 in a picture frame, sitting on a desk. -chris From jfoust at threedee.com Thu Nov 29 13:33:57 2001 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:11:38 2005 Subject: Martha Stewart In-Reply-To: <7A9BACCEF0171D4FB77019F5104CDD372259D3@jeffserver.tegjeff. com> Message-ID: <5.0.0.25.0.20011129133259.024203c0@pc> At 02:10 PM 11/29/2001 -0500, Douglas Quebbeman wrote: >Hungarian notation meets Homemaker nation... lpszGoodThing? - John From CLeyson at aol.com Thu Nov 29 13:41:13 2001 From: CLeyson at aol.com (CLeyson@aol.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:11:38 2005 Subject: Question for HP 9826 owners Message-ID: Joe >>I have the binaries for HP-9826 HPL. Copied them onto floppy disks, > What did you copy them from? When you say that you have the binaries, > what exactly do you mean? The only binaries that I've seen for the 9826 are > the .BIN files that are used with BASIC. They're language extentions and > device divers files that can be included in the main OS file or loaded > separately. But HPL is a complete stand alone OS and it doesn't use .BIN > files I have the HPL system file and drivers and also copies of Basic 4 system and associated .BIN, .PROG files etc. The files were very kindly emailed to me by Brian Skilton in the UK who got them as disk copies from Bruce Rodgers. Thanks to both Brian and Bruce. Brian used lif2dos or lifutil to make DOS copies and made a note of the file descriptor bytes (11th and 12th byte in the directory entry). I copied the files onto LIF formatted disks and edited the file descriptor byte. Success ! Basic 4 boots and loads. Tried the same with HPL and got the FFFFFFC4 error message. > Why did you edit them? Lifutil is erratic. The problem is that HP used > lots of different formats for LIF files and the file descriptor byte is > loaded in different places in different LIF files and Lifutil can't find > many of them so it doesn't accurately interpet the file structure therefore > it frequently "scrambles" files. That makes a lot of sense and could explain the problem. Brian has also sent me the directory listing for the two HPL disks using lifutil to catalogue them. Note: file descriptor bytes appear under date field. Disk 1 Volume Label: H9826 File Name Pro Type Rec/file byte/rec Address Date Time SYSTEM_HPL SYSTM 433 256 16 E9 42 Disk 2 Volume Label: V4 File Name Pro Type Rec/file byte/rec Address Date Time revid -6128 1 256 12 E8 10 cbackup -6124 16 256 13 E8 14 ibackup -6124 21 256 29 E8 14 9825key -6128 11 256 50 E8 10 9876chars -6128 2 256 61 E8 10 I had noticed that the first used sector on disk 2 is 12 and not 16 but I wouldn't have thought that would make much difference. Besides, I havn't got to disk 2 yet. I guess there must be a few more bytes that need editing. I will see if Brian can send me a hex dump of the directory sector and go through it byte by byte. Chris -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20011129/4e90f7d9/attachment-0001.html From philpem at bigfoot.com Thu Nov 29 13:52:29 2001 From: philpem at bigfoot.com (Philip Pemberton) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:11:38 2005 Subject: Badtrans Message-ID: <001b01c1790f$616a20a0$504d7ad5@phoenix> Hi All, I've noticed that a few of you have been chatting about Badtrans - according to Symantec, if you drop the underscore from the "From:" address, you should end up with the user's actual e-mail address - if the virus chose to use the actual address... I've picked apart the message source and what it does is quite sneaky - it uses an IFRAME to load the virus and also uses MIME-headers-within-MIME-headers... A few of the regulars on alt.comp.virus might want to elaborate... It's a crafty little bugger - it even installs a keystroke logging trojan... Anyone remember the so-called "Sexyfun" or "Spirale" virus (it's real name was Hybris) - it came in an e-mail from hahaha @ sexyfun.net and could update itself over the web with new "plugins"... One of which displays a _huge_ hypnotic spiral on-screen... Sophos put a screenshot of it on their website (www.sophos.com). Later. -- Phil. philpem@bigfoot.com http://www.philpem.f9.co.uk/ From donm at cts.com Thu Nov 29 13:50:53 2001 From: donm at cts.com (Don Maslin) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:11:38 2005 Subject: Ampro Littleboard problems.. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Thu, 29 Nov 2001, Gene Buckle wrote: > > On Wed, 28 Nov 2001, Gene Buckle wrote: > > > > > I've got a Littleboard I'm tring to bring up. When I feed it a disk, > > > and power it up, it will select the drive, spin it and shut down after > > > about 3 to 5 seconds. I never hear a head step. Nothing shows up on the > > > serial port (port a, 9600). The drive I'm using is a Teac FD-54B-02-U > > > and the two jumpers are set to DS0 and IU. > > > > I presume that is a typo and it really is an FD-55B. Is it terminated? > > I assume a straight cable since it is selected. The FD-55s that I use > > are jumpered DS0 (for straight cable), HS, IU, and SM on the two main > > jumper headers. PM is also jumpered on its own header. > > > > Don, the number on the back of the drive really is FD-54B. As far as > termination, I don't know. There is no place for what I would call a > "traditional" floppy termination pack. There is a SIP resistor soldered > into the board right ahead of the data connector. I don't have the drive > in front of me now, but I don't recall seeing "SM" as being a jumper > position. I do recall the "HS" labelling however. > > I don't recall anything marked "PM" at all. > > Thanks! > > g. Boy, that is one that I have never run across nor seen listed! Don't know what to tell you Gene! - don From sipke at wxs.nl Thu Nov 29 13:53:19 2001 From: sipke at wxs.nl (Sipke de Wal) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:11:38 2005 Subject: Slowdown util for 486/586 systems to emulate XT/AT systems Message-ID: <007c01c1790f$7f0fd960$030101ac@boll.casema.net> Somebody on one of the lists/groups i visiit recently asked a utility to slowdown Pentium I systems or 486-machines in order to run old dos-legacy software that was programmed for slower XT/AT class systems. I found the util again and I've put it up on my website... http://xgistor.ath.cx Go to the file section and select the folder "slowdown" there you will find the slow586.zip file ........... since it may interest virtual computer-collectors (emulation) I've decided to post it to this list as well. regards Sipke de Wal From lgwalker at mts.net Thu Nov 29 13:59:28 2001 From: lgwalker at mts.net (Lawrence Walker) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:11:38 2005 Subject: Spam from _sring@uslink.net? In-Reply-To: References: <000d01c17841$ba3ea6c0$0a00a8c0@cvendel> Message-ID: <3C063F40.4953.51D5CE7@localhost> I changed ISPs in July and haven't received any spam since moving other than a couple that were sent to the list. I used to get spam all the time before that. I have not posted to any newsgroups since the change. I almost miss it. :^) lawrence > On Wed, 28 Nov 2001, Curt Vendel wrote: > > > Looks like a lot of places have broached the Classiccmp as I've > > been getting spammed up the ying-yang and my mail blocking policies > > are on the brink of a nervous brake down as of late, I know a lot of > > other people from the mailling that I speak with one to one have > > mentioned the same thing that they suddenly been inundated with spam. > > Curious, as I use this account exclusively to receive CC messages, and > mostly post to the list from it. I have never received a spam message > addressed directly to . I bet the spam that others are > receiving is a result of their posting their address somewhere else. > > Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ > International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org > Reply to: lgwalker@mts.net From CLeyson at aol.com Thu Nov 29 13:57:45 2001 From: CLeyson at aol.com (CLeyson@aol.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:11:38 2005 Subject: HP Calulator Patents Message-ID: Here is a partial list of patents relating to HP calculators. In the first column I've entered the number of pages. The short ones aren't too interesting. The following relate to specific machines although I'm not too sure about the 9805. US4437156 (334 pages) HP9825 Processor description (No firmware) US4180854 (575 pages) HP9845 Description (No firmware) US4158285 (149 pages) wristwatch calculator US4089059 (375 pages) HP9815 Processor description and firmware listing US4075679 (599 pages) HP9825 Processor description and firmware listing US4012725 (589 pages) HP9830 Processor description and firmware listing US3971925 (162 pages) HP9805 Processor description and firmware listing US3839630 (389 pages) Unknown Also US4172281 Microprogrammable Control Processor for a Minicomputor or the like (125 pages) gives a description and schematic for a 16 bit TTL machine. Uses 74S181s in the ALU and reference is made to the HP21XX in the opcode listing. Unfortunately the quality of the copy is poor and there is no microcode. Downloaded from http://gb.espacenet.com. Chris Pages Patent No Issued Title 011 US05530234 06/25/1996 Hand held calculator having a retractable cover 021 US04885714 12/05/1989 Calculator having a user-accessible object stack for the uniform application of mathematical functions and logical operations to a multiplicity of object types 030 US04821228 04/11/1989 Method and apparatus for computation stack recovery in a calculator 010 US04566072 01/21/1986 Programmable calculator including means for digitizing the position of an X-Y plotter pen 011 US04546448 10/08/1985 Programmable calculator including program variable initialization means and definition means array 031 US04480305 10/30/1984 Programmable calculator including editing capability 019 US04456964 06/26/1984 Calculator including means for displaying alphanumeric prompting messages to the operator 010 US04455618 06/19/1984 Programmable calculator 026 US04455607 06/19/1984 Programmable calculator having keys for performing angular measurement unit conversion 334 US04437156 03/13/1984 Programmable calculator 031 US04412300 10/25/1983 Programmable calculator including alphabetic output capability 026 US04384328 05/17/1983 Programmable calculator including magnetic reading and recording means 030 US04381554 04/26/1983 Calculator for storing source data and evaluating numerical answers to problems 007 US04330839 05/18/1982 Programmable calculator including means for automatically processing imformation stored on a magnetic record member 012 US04322816 03/30/1982 Programmable calculator having structure for controlling an x-y plotter 031 US04309761 01/05/1982 Calculator for evaluating numerical answers to problems 029 US04291385 09/22/1981 Calculator having merged key codes 018 US04281390 07/28/1981 Programmable calculator including means for performing computed and uncomputed relative branching during program execution 003 USD0256133 07/29/1980 Casing for an electronic calculator 031 US04203152 05/13/1980 Programmable calculator including key-log printing means 030 US04198684 04/15/1980 Electronic calculator with keyboard-controlled unary function capability 010 US04197586 04/08/1980 Electronic calculator assembly 019 US04187547 02/05/1980 Programmable calculator including means for controllably introducing blank lines on a printed record during program execution 007 US04181966 01/01/1980 Adaptable programmed calculator including a percent keyboard operator 019 US04181965 01/01/1980 Programmable calculator including program trace means ??? US04180854 12/25/1979 Programmable calculator having string variable editing capability 018 US04178633 12/11/1979 Programmable calculator including multifunction keys 012 US04177520 12/04/1979 Calculator apparatus having a single-step key for displaying and executing program steps and displaying the result 019 US04177518 12/04/1979 Programmable calculator including scrolling alphanumeric display means 018 US04164039 08/07/1979 Programmable calculator including a key for performing either a subtraction or a unary minus function 019 US04164019 08/07/1979 Programmable calculator including alphanumeric display means 019 US04162532 07/24/1979 Programmable calculator including data format display control means 019 US04161031 07/10/1979 Programmable calculator including boolean flag variable means 019 US04159525 06/26/1979 Programmable calculator employing computed memory addresses 149 US04158285 06/19/1979 Interactive wristwatch calculator 018 US04158233 06/12/1979 Programmable calculator including means for performing implied multiply operations 019 US04158231 06/12/1979 Programmable calculator including program listing means 019 US04158228 06/12/1979 Programmable calculator including alphanumeric error display means 006 US04156921 05/29/1979 Adaptable programmed calculator including automatic decimal point positioning 018 US04156918 05/29/1979 Programmable calculator including means for performing computed jumps during program execution 020 US04156917 05/29/1979 Programmable calculator including separate user program and data memory areas 018 US04156285 05/22/1979 Programmable calculator including keyboard functions whose argument may be a numeric constant, a storage register, or an arithmetic expression 018 US04156282 05/22/1979 Programmable calculator including relational operator means 020 US04152774 05/01/1979 Programmable calculator including keyboard function means for raising the number ten to any designated power 018 US04152773 05/01/1979 Programmable calculator including means for establishing a priority for executing algebraic operations 019 US04152771 05/01/1979 Programmable calculator including display means for signalling the user to indicate the exhaustion of a printer paper supply 020 US04152770 05/01/1979 Programmable calculator including means for programmably controlling magnetic storage units 019 US04152769 05/01/1979 Programmable calculator including means for permitting data entry during program execution 022 US04145752 03/20/1979 Programmable calculator including separate line numbering means for user-definable functions 025 US04145742 03/20/1979 Programmable calculator including user-definable keys 012 US04127897 11/28/1978 Programmable calculator having extended input/output capability 012 US04126898 11/21/1978 Programmable calculator including terminal control means 002 USD0249243 09/05/1978 Wristwatch calculator 002 USD0249090 08/22/1978 Casing for an electronic calculator 011 US04109315 08/22/1978 Wristwatch calculator with selectively scanned keyboard 028 US04099246 07/04/1978 Calculator having merged key codes 015 US04091270 05/23/1978 Electronic calculator with optical input means 375 US04089059 05/09/1978 Programmable calculator employing a read-write memory having a movable boundary between program and data storage sections thereof 014 US04078257 03/07/1978 Calculator apparatus with electronically alterable key symbols 599 US04075679 02/21/1978 Programmable calculator 021 US04063221 12/13/1977 Programmable calculator 005 US04059750 11/22/1977 General purpose calculator having selective data storage, data conversion and time-keeping capabilities 009 US04055757 10/25/1977 Calculator apparatus with annuity switch for performing begin-and end-period annuity calculations 002 USD0245810 09/13/1977 Casing for an electronic calculator 005 US04047012 09/06/1977 General purpose calculator having factorial capability 002 USD0245107 07/19/1977 Electronic calculator 007 US04037092 07/19/1977 Calculator having preprogrammed user-definable functions 009 US04035627 07/12/1977 Scientific calculator 002 USD0244862 06/28/1977 Casing for an electronic calculator 013 US04028538 06/07/1977 Programmable calculator employing algebraic language 589 US04012725 03/15/1977 Programmable calculator 055 US04009379 02/22/1977 Portable programmable calculator displaying absolute line number addresses and key codes and automatically altering display formats 092 US04001569 01/04/1977 General purpose calculator having selective data storage, data conversion and time-keeping capabilities 032 US03996562 12/07/1976 Programmable electronic calculator for evaluating mathematical problems 009 US03987290 10/19/1976 Calculator apparatus for displaying data in engineering notation 162 US03971925 07/27/1976 Adaptable programmed calculator having provision for plug-in keyboard and memory modules 004 US03955074 05/04/1976 General purpose calculator having keys with more than one function assigned thereto 005 US03946218 03/23/1976 General purpose calculator with capability for performing yield-to-maturity of a bond calculation 007 US03893173 07/01/1975 Miniaturized magnetic card reader/recorder for use in hand-held calculator 073 US03863060 01/28/1975 GENERAL PURPOSE CALCULATOR WITH CAPABILITY FOR PERFORMING INTERDISCIPLINARY BUSINESS CALCULATIONS 007 US03855461 12/17/1974 CALCULATOR WITH KEY CODE ASSOCIATION AND DISPLAY FEATURES 389 US03839630 10/01/1974 PROGRAMMABLE CALCULATOR EMPLOYING ALGEBRAIC LANGUAGE 058 US03825736 07/23/1974 CALCULATOR WITH PROVISION FOR EFFICIENTLY MANIPULATING FACTORS AND TERMS ??? US03781820 12/25/1973 PORTABLE ELECTRONIC CALCULATOR ??? US03769621 10/30/1973 CALCULATOR WITH PROVISION FOR AUTOMATICALLY INTERPOSING MEMORY ACCESS CYCLES BETWEEN OTHERWISE REGULARLY ??? US03711690 01/16/1973 CALCULATOR AND TESTER FOR USE THEREWITH ??? US03678466 07/18/1972 ELECTRONIC CALCULATOR ??? US03675213 07/04/1972 STORED DATA RECALL MEANS FOR AN ELECTRONIC CALCULATOR ??? US03668461 06/06/1972 OUTPUT DISPLAY FOR USE WITH A CALCULATOR ??? US03641328 02/08/1972 KEYBOARD ENTRY MEANS AND POWER CONTROL MEANS FOR CALCULATOR ??? US03623156 11/23/1971 CALCULATOR EMPLOYING MULTIPLE REGISTERS AND FEEDBACK PATHS FOR FLEXIBLE SUBROUTINE CONTROL ??? US03576983 05/04/1971 DIGITAL CALCULATOR SYSTEM FOR COMPUTING SQUARE ROOTS -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20011129/86c47507/attachment-0001.html From donm at cts.com Thu Nov 29 14:01:35 2001 From: donm at cts.com (Don Maslin) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:11:38 2005 Subject: Martha Stewart In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Thu, 29 Nov 2001, Zane H. Healy wrote: > >Surprised she didn't preach using them as decorative items - a "good thing" > > You mean you don't use some of yours as decorative items or furnature? :^) > > Zane > -- > | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator | > | healyzh@aracnet.com (primary) | OpenVMS Enthusiast | > | | Classic Computer Collector | > +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ > | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | > | PDP-10 Emulation and Zane's Computer Museum. | > | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | I have a friend who used stacked Kaypros as end tables. - don From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Nov 29 13:34:33 2001 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:11:38 2005 Subject: Ampro Littleboard problems.. In-Reply-To: from "Don Maslin" at Nov 28, 1 09:19:56 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 419 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20011129/b6666ff2/attachment-0001.ksh From dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com Thu Nov 29 14:08:56 2001 From: dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com (Douglas Quebbeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:11:38 2005 Subject: Martha Stewart Message-ID: <7A9BACCEF0171D4FB77019F5104CDD372259D9@jeffserver.tegjeff.com> > At 02:10 PM 11/29/2001 -0500, Douglas Quebbeman wrote: > >Hungarian notation meets Homemaker nation... > > lpszGoodThing? ROFL! -q From mythtech at Mac.com Thu Nov 29 14:14:35 2001 From: mythtech at Mac.com (Chris) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:11:38 2005 Subject: Scrapping hardware to get it off the books (RE: Is it a Lisa or Mac XL?!) Message-ID: >Should I even bother going back and asking to see the stuff >in the yard? Or, has this firm agreed not to resell anything >(I'm kinda assuming that what's true for this guy is industry >standard). I don't know the laws, but why shouldn't a scapper be allowed to sell the stuff in working condition? They are in the scrap business, and I would think once it is theirs, they should be allowed to sell it however they want (pulverize and sell as land fill, or repair and sell as working). Is there some law against selling the stuff in working condition? -chris From mark_k at totalise.co.uk Thu Nov 29 14:16:07 2001 From: mark_k at totalise.co.uk (Mark Knibbs) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:11:38 2005 Subject: Central Point Option Board (earlier non-ASIC version) chips Message-ID: <3CBB48EE@mail.totalise.co.uk> Hi, This is quite urgent. Can someone who has the earlier version of the Central Point Option Board (also known as Copy II PC Option Board) please type up the part numbers of all chips on the card? Or scan the card at a decent resolution so all chip markings are legible. I want to get datasheets for as many of the ICs on the card as possible. Assuming some are not just simple TTL chips, the best place to look for these would be the FreeTradeZone web site. As mentioned a few days ago, that will no longer be accessible for free in a few days time. (I don't have an older Option Board yet. I want to get info on the ICs it uses for a possible future reverse-engineering effort, to figure out how the card works, and allow low-level disk-imaging software to be written.) -- Mark From jhellige at earthlink.net Thu Nov 29 08:56:22 2001 From: jhellige at earthlink.net (Jeff Hellige) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:11:38 2005 Subject: Macintosh In-Reply-To: <7A9BACCEF0171D4FB77019F5104CDD372259C8@jeffserver.tegjeff.com> References: <7A9BACCEF0171D4FB77019F5104CDD372259C8@jeffserver.tegjeff.com> Message-ID: <01Nov29.153437est.119147@gateway.mediacen.navy.mil> > > Could someone tell me what the last version of Macintosh System to run on >> 68K machines was? Where can I get a copy? > >That would be System 6.0.8, and you should be abe to >download it from Apple's FTP site. Try navigating >through the stuff at http://mirror.apple.com/. Actually, up to System 7.5.5 easily runs on 68k Mac's such as Quadra 605's (which use a 68040). I believe System 8.1 will also run on some 68k Mac's though 8.5 requires a PPC. For a minimalist machine, System 7.1 certainly runs well. Jeff -- Home of the TRS-80 Model 2000 FAQ File http://www.cchaven.com http://www.geocities.com/siliconvalley/lakes/6757 From geneb at deltasoft.com Thu Nov 29 15:35:52 2001 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (Gene Buckle) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:11:38 2005 Subject: Ampro Littleboard problems.. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: > > termination, I don't know. There is no place for what I would call a > > "traditional" floppy termination pack. There is a SIP resistor soldered > > into the board right ahead of the data connector. I don't have the drive > > in front of me now, but I don't recall seeing "SM" as being a jumper > > position. I do recall the "HS" labelling however. > > > > I don't recall anything marked "PM" at all. > > > > Thanks! > > > > g. > > Boy, that is one that I have never run across nor seen listed! Don't > know what to tell you Gene! > - don > I'm going to strip the machine down tonight (It's in a Bookshelf 100 enclosure) and do some serious contact cleaning and chip re-seating to see if I can't get it to behave. g. From Innfogra at aol.com Thu Nov 29 14:32:53 2001 From: Innfogra at aol.com (Innfogra@aol.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:11:38 2005 Subject: Scrapping hardware to get it off the books (RE: Is it a Lisa or Mac XL?!) Message-ID: In a message dated 11/29/01 11:34:58 AM Pacific Standard Time, dhquebbeman@theestopinalgroup.com writes: > Should I even bother going back and asking to see the stuff > in the yard? Or, has this firm agreed not to resell anything > (I'm kinda assuming that what's true for this guy is industry > standard). > > Go back. It always pays to ask. Most scrap dealers buy outright their scrap. Ii is only a small portion of the contracts that specify no resale. And certified destruction is a very small part of the scrap business. We only had two or three certified destruction contracts in the years I worked with a scrapper. One were the BIIN computers. Another was 600 Fujitsu 2333 HDs, that was an interesting week of work. Paxton Hoag Astoria, OR -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20011129/646eb6e4/attachment-0001.html From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Thu Nov 29 14:34:30 2001 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (Allison) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:11:38 2005 Subject: Ampro Littleboard problems.. Message-ID: <000801c17915$40694740$6b7b7b7b@ajp> Depending on the Eprom installed a prompt is not always to be expected. Mine has 3.mumble and does not prompt. However it does boot most anything bootable it can find including SCSI hard disk. Allison -----Original Message----- From: Richard Erlacher To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org Date: Thursday, November 29, 2001 11:13 AM Subject: Re: Ampro Littleboard problems.. >Though there are many "Little Board" products from Ampro, the ones I have, which >are the originals from back in '83 or so, will produce a prompt if you (1) have >no floppy attached, or (2) don't have a diskette in it. If it's not producing >that prompt, I'd say you need to look elsewhere than the floppy drive. > >Aside from single-sided drives, I've never encountered a 48TPI drive that this >machine wouldn't boot once it's jumpered for DS0. > >Nevertheless, if it's not producing the prompt, something's seriously wrong. >There aren't many parts that could be broken, but perhaps you should look into >which one it might be. My experience has been that if it doesn't produce that >prompt, it won't boot under any circumstances. > >Dick > >----- Original Message ----- >From: "Gene Buckle" >To: >Sent: Thursday, November 29, 2001 8:58 AM >Subject: Re: Ampro Littleboard problems.. > > >> > On Wed, 28 Nov 2001, Gene Buckle wrote: >> > >> > > I've got a Littleboard I'm tring to bring up. When I feed it a disk, >> > > and power it up, it will select the drive, spin it and shut down after >> > > about 3 to 5 seconds. I never hear a head step. Nothing shows up on the >> > > serial port (port a, 9600). The drive I'm using is a Teac FD-54B-02-U >> > > and the two jumpers are set to DS0 and IU. >> > >> > I presume that is a typo and it really is an FD-55B. Is it terminated? >> > I assume a straight cable since it is selected. The FD-55s that I use >> > are jumpered DS0 (for straight cable), HS, IU, and SM on the two main >> > jumper headers. PM is also jumpered on its own header. >> > >> >> Don, the number on the back of the drive really is FD-54B. As far as >> termination, I don't know. There is no place for what I would call a >> "traditional" floppy termination pack. There is a SIP resistor soldered >> into the board right ahead of the data connector. I don't have the drive >> in front of me now, but I don't recall seeing "SM" as being a jumper >> position. I do recall the "HS" labelling however. >> >> I don't recall anything marked "PM" at all. >> >> Thanks! >> >> g. >> >> >> > From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Thu Nov 29 14:39:10 2001 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (Allison) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:11:38 2005 Subject: Spam from _sring@uslink.net? Message-ID: <002301c17915$eb017560$6b7b7b7b@ajp> From: Bill Dawson >I'm using Outlook 2000 with the latest Microslop patches/security updates >and the latest version of ZoneAlarm, 2.6.357, so I avoided infection. I avoid it by running NT4/sp4 with IE4.02, an older version. Then I disable activex, comx and VBS.scripting as those things are needed by virii to propagate. The end result was that virus at home did little more than generate an unknown image type, afterwhich I deleted in and waved bye to it. Allison From dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com Thu Nov 29 14:43:08 2001 From: dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com (Douglas Quebbeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:11:38 2005 Subject: Ampro Littleboard problems.. Message-ID: <7A9BACCEF0171D4FB77019F5104CDD372259DB@jeffserver.tegjeff.com> > > I presume that is a typo and it really is an FD-55B. Is it terminated? > > I wouldn't bet on it. There is an FD-54B. That Sanyo MBC555 MS-DOS > machine has a couple of them in it (or at least mine does). I have no > idea what the difference between the FD-54B and the FD-55B is, though. Have a likely-dead one of those drives laying around, should anyone be interested... -dq From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Thu Nov 29 14:44:18 2001 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (Allison) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:11:38 2005 Subject: PDP-8/E PowerSupply Part 2 Message-ID: <004801c17916$9ecd9880$6b7b7b7b@ajp> If memeory serves that depended on the lamps to load the PS down to rated voltages. If you have leds the load willbe lighter and since they have current limiting resistors the small extra votage is not an issue. Allison -----Original Message----- From: Zane H. Healy To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org Date: Thursday, November 29, 2001 2:57 PM Subject: PDP-8/E PowerSupply Part 2 >OK, I got brave and flipped the switch and started testing voltages with >everything disconnected. > >I've got a H724 PS and everything looks good except the +8Vdc line which is >for powering the light bulbs on the front panel, and the 14Vac. The +8Vdc >should be between 6-10Vdc according to Volume 1 of the maintenance manual, >and it's currently at 11.14Vdc. The 14Vac looks like it might be even more >messed up, as I'm getting 8.95Vac on one line and 19.26Vac on the other, >but it doesn't look to be used. > >Now for everything except the +8Vdc and 14Vac everything looks to be >adjustable. So, is there anything I can tweak on this, or should I just >not worry about it? I really don't want to be blowing lightbulbs if I can >help it. > > Zane >-- >| Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator | >| healyzh@aracnet.com (primary) | OpenVMS Enthusiast | >| | Classic Computer Collector | >+----------------------------------+----------------------------+ >| Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | >| PDP-10 Emulation and Zane's Computer Museum. | >| http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | > From CLeyson at aol.com Thu Nov 29 14:45:30 2001 From: CLeyson at aol.com (CLeyson@aol.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:11:38 2005 Subject: S. Ring has badtrans virus Message-ID: <138.57191e2.2937f86a@aol.com> Just found kernel32.exe and kdll.dll and zapped them. Thanks Lawrence. I made the mistake of opening the infected attachment. Sunday 25th. Spent hours looking for inetd.exe, kern32.exe and hksdll.dll (Badtrans.a) According to McAffe:- "This mass mailing worm attempts to send itself using Microsoft Outlook by replying to unread and read email messages. It also mails itself to email addresses found within files that exist on your system. It drops a keylogging trojan (detected as PWS-Hooker with the 4173 DATs, or greater) into the SYSTEM directory as KDLL.DLL. This trojan logs keystrokes for the purpose of stealing personal information (such as credit card and bank account numbers and passwords). This information is later emailed to the virus author(s)." I never could get Outlook to install - how do I know what my POP3 address is !! Thankyou Microsoft. Chris -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20011129/e831ec8f/attachment-0001.html From CLeyson at aol.com Thu Nov 29 14:50:59 2001 From: CLeyson at aol.com (CLeyson@aol.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:11:38 2005 Subject: Slowdown util for 486/586 systems to emulate XT/AT systems Message-ID: <40.15256962.2937f9b3@aol.com> Thanks spike - I already have a slowdown util - Windoze :-) Just won myself an HP85A on ebay - happy again. Chris -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20011129/f60fa5db/attachment-0001.html From Innfogra at aol.com Thu Nov 29 14:51:53 2001 From: Innfogra at aol.com (Innfogra@aol.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:11:38 2005 Subject: Scrapping hardware to get it off the books (RE: Is it a Lisa or Mac XL?!) Message-ID: <13d.555831a.2937f9e9@aol.com> In a message dated 11/29/01 12:23:30 PM Pacific Standard Time, mythtech@Mac.com writes: > Is there some law against selling the stuff in working condition? > > Contract Law. While most surplus sales are outright sales many are contract sales which may have restrictive clauses. How willing the scrapper is to violate contract law, a civil matter, varies widely. Certified destruction is a contract where destruction is usually certified by an outside auditor. A good scrapper holds to his contracts in order to get repeat business and maintain his reputation as reliable. There are many shady and fly by night people in the scrap business. There are many good and reliable people too. Paxton Astoria, OR Pa -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20011129/f1859d5a/attachment-0001.html From geoffr at zipcon.net Thu Nov 29 14:57:54 2001 From: geoffr at zipcon.net (geoffr@zipcon.net) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:11:38 2005 Subject: Ampro Littleboard problems.. References: Message-ID: <3c06a152dcc480.45418957@zipcon.net> http://njcc.com/~hjohnson/s_drives.html Has the manual for sale, 30 pages @ 25C a page.... > On Wed, 28 Nov 2001, Gene Buckle wrote: > > I've got a Littleboard I'm tring to bring up. When I feed it a disk, > and power it up, it will select the drive, spin it and shut down after > about 3 to 5 seconds. I never hear a head step. Nothing shows up on the > serial port (port a, 9600). The drive I'm using is a Teac FD-54B-02-U > and the two jumpers are set to DS0 and IU. From CLeyson at aol.com Thu Nov 29 14:57:11 2001 From: CLeyson at aol.com (CLeyson@aol.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:11:38 2005 Subject: Scrapping hardware to get it off the books (RE: Is it a Lisa or Mac XL?!) Message-ID: <61.17559262.2937fb27@aol.com> > Should I even bother going back and asking to see the stuff > in the yard? Or, has this firm agreed not to resell anything > (I'm kinda assuming that what's true for this guy is industry > standard). It's worth asking. I recently bought a scrapped Takeda Riken audio spectrum analyzer from my employers. It's been gathering dust for the last 5 to 6 years. They were glad to rid of it and I have a broken toy with a 16-bit bit-slice processor. Chris -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20011129/5356aea7/attachment-0001.html From dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com Thu Nov 29 14:57:34 2001 From: dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com (Douglas Quebbeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:11:38 2005 Subject: Scrapping hardware to get it off the books (RE: Is it a Lisa or Mac XL?!) Message-ID: <7A9BACCEF0171D4FB77019F5104CDD372259DC@jeffserver.tegjeff.com> > >Should I even bother going back and asking to see the stuff > >in the yard? Or, has this firm agreed not to resell anything > >(I'm kinda assuming that what's true for this guy is industry > >standard). > > I don't know the laws, but why shouldn't a scapper be allowed to sell the > stuff in working condition? They are in the scrap business, and I would > think once it is theirs, they should be allowed to sell it however they > want (pulverize and sell as land fill, or repair and sell as working). > > Is there some law against selling the stuff in working condition? If they purchase it from the original owners with the understanding that the stuff will be destroyed instead of resold, it would be a breach of (probably verbal) contract. -dq From dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com Thu Nov 29 14:58:07 2001 From: dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com (Douglas Quebbeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:11:38 2005 Subject: Macintosh Message-ID: <7A9BACCEF0171D4FB77019F5104CDD372259DD@jeffserver.tegjeff.com> > > > Could someone tell me what the last version of Macintosh System to run on > >> 68K machines was? Where can I get a copy? > > > >That would be System 6.0.8, and you should be abe to > >download it from Apple's FTP site. Try navigating > >through the stuff at http://mirror.apple.com/. > > Actually, up to System 7.5.5 easily runs on 68k Mac's such as > Quadra 605's (which use a 68040). I believe System 8.1 will also run > on some 68k Mac's though 8.5 requires a PPC. For a minimalist > machine, System 7.1 certainly runs well. A camel train has less latency than this list! -dq From csmith at amdocs.com Thu Nov 29 15:13:17 2001 From: csmith at amdocs.com (Christopher Smith) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:11:38 2005 Subject: Scrapping hardware to get it off the books (RE: Is it a Lisa or Mac XL?!) Message-ID: <3B55D7F383B0D31197D9009027541CBF1170DEFA@cmiexch1.cmi.itds.com> > -----Original Message----- > From: Douglas Quebbeman [mailto:dhquebbeman@theestopinalgroup.com] > But the firm had some interesting stuff in the fenced-in yard. > Should I even bother going back and asking to see the stuff > in the yard? Or, has this firm agreed not to resell anything > (I'm kinda assuming that what's true for this guy is industry > standard). By all means, go back and see what they say. Generally I've found that hardware is fair game to repair (if needed) and re-sell. Most won't touch the software because of legal problems, but some are more zealous about removing it than others. (some also leave it to the people throwing the stuff away to remove software, which often isn't done) Regards, Chris Christopher Smith, Perl Developer Amdocs - Champaign, IL /usr/bin/perl -e ' print((~"\x95\xc4\xe3"^"Just Another Perl Hacker.")."\x08!\n"); ' From csmith at amdocs.com Thu Nov 29 15:19:50 2001 From: csmith at amdocs.com (Christopher Smith) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:11:38 2005 Subject: Scrapping hardware to get it off the books (RE: Is it a Lisa or Mac XL?!) Message-ID: <3B55D7F383B0D31197D9009027541CBF1170DEFB@cmiexch1.cmi.itds.com> > -----Original Message----- > From: Chris [mailto:mythtech@Mac.com] > I don't know the laws, but why shouldn't a scapper be allowed > to sell the > stuff in working condition? They are in the scrap business, > and I would > think once it is theirs, they should be allowed to sell it > however they > want (pulverize and sell as land fill, or repair and sell as working). > Is there some law against selling the stuff in working condition? I doubt it. There may be very few contracts that require this sort of thing, but honestly, if the company scrapping the equipment was that worried about it, they'd scrap it themselves. I have heard that NSA does this, and that further they (to paraphrase) "slag their disks and post armed guards around the slag." Most companies likely just throw the stuff out and don't care what happens to it afterwards. Regards, Chris Christopher Smith, Perl Developer Amdocs - Champaign, IL /usr/bin/perl -e ' print((~"\x95\xc4\xe3"^"Just Another Perl Hacker.")."\x08!\n"); ' From foo at siconic.com Thu Nov 29 15:14:50 2001 From: foo at siconic.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:11:38 2005 Subject: Adobe Loss in California District Court, Good News for ClassicCmp rs In-Reply-To: <7A9BACCEF0171D4FB77019F5104CDD372259D2@jeffserver.tegjeff.com> Message-ID: On Thu, 29 Nov 2001, Douglas Quebbeman wrote: > I'm not sure how many of you have seen this yet, but Adobe has lost a > suit regarding the transferrability of software licenses. The court > has rules that even if the wording of a license specifically prohibits > the resale of the software by the original buyer to a new owner, the > original owner is within their rights in doing so. > > Of course, without a doubt, Adobe will likely appeal this at least as > far as the California Supreme Court. We can only hope they'll lose > there as well. We can only hope that common sense will continue to prevail. Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org From classiccmp at knm.yi.org Thu Nov 29 14:22:02 2001 From: classiccmp at knm.yi.org (Matt London) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:11:38 2005 Subject: OT: Compaq Presario 1200 Restore CDs Message-ID: Hi, I know this is completely off topic for the list, but I'm in a bit of a jam. My girlfriend owns a compaq presario 1200 laptop, and the windows install is b0rked (surprise surprise). The company she bought it from refuse to supply her with the CDs and manuals that came with it originally (it was supplied as ex.demo as a replacement for a broken model they couldn't replace exactly). Anyway, the result of this is I'm looking for someone who has said CDs and wouldn't mind copying them, or even making isos for me, so I can get her laptop up and running again. Thanks a lot guys - I'll try not to be off topic in future :&) -- Matt --- Web Page: http://knm.yi.org/ http://pkl.net/~matt/ PGP Key fingerprint = 00BF 19FE D5F5 8EAD 2FD5 D102 260E 8BA7 EEE4 8D7F PGP Key http://knm.yi.org/matt-pgp.html From foo at siconic.com Thu Nov 29 15:16:21 2001 From: foo at siconic.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:11:38 2005 Subject: Scrapping hardware to get it off the books (RE: Is it a Lisa or Mac XL?!) In-Reply-To: <7A9BACCEF0171D4FB77019F5104CDD372259D5@jeffserver.tegjeff.com> Message-ID: On Thu, 29 Nov 2001, Douglas Quebbeman wrote: > Should I even bother going back and asking to see the stuff in the > yard? Or, has this firm agreed not to resell anything (I'm kinda > assuming that what's true for this guy is industry standard). It never hurts to ask, right? Unless he chases you away with a shotgun loaded with rock salt. That would hurt. Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org From healyzh at aracnet.com Thu Nov 29 15:33:54 2001 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:11:38 2005 Subject: PDP-8/E PowerSupply Part 2 In-Reply-To: from "Allison" at Nov 29, 2001 03:44:18 PM Message-ID: <200111292133.fATLXs919489@shell1.aracnet.com> Interesting, I've got the lamps (I'd been hoping for LEDs), but I didn't connect the wires for testing. Looks like the next step when I get home will be to figure out which wire plugs into which connector on the front panel. Unfortunatly the person that took the system apart and shipped it didn't make notes. OTOH, he did a magnificent job of packing and the system came with full doc's. Zane > > If memeory serves that depended on the lamps to load the PS > down to rated voltages. If you have leds the load willbe lighter and since > they have current limiting resistors the small extra votage is not an issue. > > Allison > -----Original Message----- > From: Zane H. Healy > To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org > Date: Thursday, November 29, 2001 2:57 PM > Subject: PDP-8/E PowerSupply Part 2 > > > >OK, I got brave and flipped the switch and started testing voltages with > >everything disconnected. > > > >I've got a H724 PS and everything looks good except the +8Vdc line which is > >for powering the light bulbs on the front panel, and the 14Vac. The +8Vdc > >should be between 6-10Vdc according to Volume 1 of the maintenance manual, > >and it's currently at 11.14Vdc. The 14Vac looks like it might be even more > >messed up, as I'm getting 8.95Vac on one line and 19.26Vac on the other, > >but it doesn't look to be used. > > > >Now for everything except the +8Vdc and 14Vac everything looks to be > >adjustable. So, is there anything I can tweak on this, or should I just > >not worry about it? I really don't want to be blowing lightbulbs if I can > >help it. > > > > Zane > >-- > >| Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator | > >| healyzh@aracnet.com (primary) | OpenVMS Enthusiast | > >| | Classic Computer Collector | > >+----------------------------------+----------------------------+ > >| Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | > >| PDP-10 Emulation and Zane's Computer Museum. | > >| http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | > > > From edick at idcomm.com Thu Nov 29 15:36:44 2001 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:11:38 2005 Subject: Ampro Littleboard problems.. References: <000801c17915$40694740$6b7b7b7b@ajp> Message-ID: <007401c1791d$f0db4940$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> Well, I made the assumption that since my rev 0.00 (not really, but I ordered the boards before any had been made) EPROM gives a prompt, they all did. Perhaps that isn't the case. If it's SCSI capable, it's a year or more newer than my EPROM. They didn't have a hard disk back when I bought these. It has to find that there's no disk drive, however, else it simply tries to boot from that. After a timeout of maybe a minute, it defaults to the prompt screen, which is a menu. Dick ----- Original Message ----- From: "Allison" To: Sent: Thursday, November 29, 2001 1:34 PM Subject: Re: Ampro Littleboard problems.. > Depending on the Eprom installed a prompt is not always to > be expected. Mine has 3.mumble and does not prompt. > > However it does boot most anything bootable it can find including > SCSI hard disk. > > Allison > > -----Original Message----- > From: Richard Erlacher > To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org > Date: Thursday, November 29, 2001 11:13 AM > Subject: Re: Ampro Littleboard problems.. > > > >Though there are many "Little Board" products from Ampro, the ones I have, > which > >are the originals from back in '83 or so, will produce a prompt if you (1) > have > >no floppy attached, or (2) don't have a diskette in it. If it's not > producing > >that prompt, I'd say you need to look elsewhere than the floppy drive. > > > >Aside from single-sided drives, I've never encountered a 48TPI drive that > this > >machine wouldn't boot once it's jumpered for DS0. > > > >Nevertheless, if it's not producing the prompt, something's seriously > wrong. > >There aren't many parts that could be broken, but perhaps you should look > into > >which one it might be. My experience has been that if it doesn't produce > that > >prompt, it won't boot under any circumstances. > > > >Dick > > > >----- Original Message ----- > >From: "Gene Buckle" > >To: > >Sent: Thursday, November 29, 2001 8:58 AM > >Subject: Re: Ampro Littleboard problems.. > > > > > >> > On Wed, 28 Nov 2001, Gene Buckle wrote: > >> > > >> > > I've got a Littleboard I'm tring to bring up. When I feed it a disk, > >> > > and power it up, it will select the drive, spin it and shut down > after > >> > > about 3 to 5 seconds. I never hear a head step. Nothing shows up on > the > >> > > serial port (port a, 9600). The drive I'm using is a Teac > FD-54B-02-U > >> > > and the two jumpers are set to DS0 and IU. > >> > > >> > I presume that is a typo and it really is an FD-55B. Is it terminated? > >> > I assume a straight cable since it is selected. The FD-55s that I use > >> > are jumpered DS0 (for straight cable), HS, IU, and SM on the two main > >> > jumper headers. PM is also jumpered on its own header. > >> > > >> > >> Don, the number on the back of the drive really is FD-54B. As far as > >> termination, I don't know. There is no place for what I would call a > >> "traditional" floppy termination pack. There is a SIP resistor soldered > >> into the board right ahead of the data connector. I don't have the drive > >> in front of me now, but I don't recall seeing "SM" as being a jumper > >> position. I do recall the "HS" labelling however. > >> > >> I don't recall anything marked "PM" at all. > >> > >> Thanks! > >> > >> g. > >> > >> > >> > > > > From edick at idcomm.com Thu Nov 29 15:38:48 2001 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:11:38 2005 Subject: Ampro Littleboard problems.. References: <3c06a152dcc480.45418957@zipcon.net> Message-ID: <008801c1791e$3b4d8380$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> I've got several copies. No need to pay 60 cents per sheet. If copies are needed, I'll get them made for you at whatever the local minimum is, probably about 5 cents/page, though I haven't used Kinko's in a few years. Dick ----- Original Message ----- From: To: Sent: Thursday, November 29, 2001 1:57 PM Subject: Re: Re: Ampro Littleboard problems.. > > http://njcc.com/~hjohnson/s_drives.html > > Has the manual for sale, 30 pages @ 25C a page.... > > > On Wed, 28 Nov 2001, Gene Buckle wrote: > > > > I've got a Littleboard I'm tring to bring up. When I feed it a disk, > > and power it up, it will select the drive, spin it and shut down after > > about 3 to 5 seconds. I never hear a head step. Nothing shows up on the > > serial port (port a, 9600). The drive I'm using is a Teac FD-54B-02-U > > and the two jumpers are set to DS0 and IU. > > > From mtapley at swri.edu Thu Nov 29 15:43:26 2001 From: mtapley at swri.edu (Mark Tapley) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:11:38 2005 Subject: History of Computing exam question In-Reply-To: <200111291841.MAA86990@opal.tseinc.com> Message-ID: Hans asked: >List the 20 to 30 systems you would display and briefly explain the >reason for choosing each. Fun question. Don't have time to really organize, but here's parts of my list: Napier's Bones digital solution for one class of computing problem Slide Rule (almost any) Analog computation, and portable computing power. Application of a fairly disjoint set of technologies to a very focussed solution that met a serious need in engineering Abacus (almost any) As with the slide rule, but now a discrete digital technology. Babbage's Engine ...or plans, if it couldn't be found or made a replica of. Large-scale compute power, digital technology with the greatest flexibility so far Bowditch's "American Practical Navigator" and a sextant Illustration of the market drive for computing power, and the tabular approach to meeting heavy-duty geometrical calculation problems. (Could just as well be the old Admiralty tables, I'm just biased in favor of Bowditch 'cause I'm American.) Zuse-1 (fill in the blank) Enigma machine, and Bomb (a matched pair) *serious* market drive -> compute power response for a single application Eniac (fill in the blank) IBM 360 (fill in the blank) PDP-11/xx Pick a good one, first minicomputer/lab computer. Brought compute power into a lot of lower-cost applications. Dec Rainbow typifies both MS-DOS and CP-M machines. somewhat breakthrough OS flexibility, (MS-DOS, CP/M, CCP/M, Venix, all of which were preexisting). Mac 128k GUI OS for the masses, origin of "friendly" computers (first computer to *smile* at me). VAX - any Illustration of successful extension of an existing architecture to more bits (twice as many) Alpha - any As VAX, but to 64 bits/RISC Cray 1 Vector supercomputer, electromechanical design breakthrough Newton PDA origin. Perq microprogramming, early workstation, heck Tony likes it so it must be good... F-14 flight computer integrated circuit microprocessor first application (?) NeXT Cube (original) OO system, sizeable leap in developer environment quality Sun Sparc-5 Desktop workstation, power/price/size breakthrough Sony Vaio or Mac Titanium Laptops get to practical size and retain serious power. DVD player (any) or CD player market driver for serious compute power cheap Sony PSX as above, including graphics Jet engine FADEC unit (any) compute power seriously ruggedized and making a pilot's life easier (livable). I'm sure I've left out a lot, apologies to all concerned. - Mark From hansp at aconit.org Thu Nov 29 15:52:38 2001 From: hansp at aconit.org (Hans B Pufal) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:11:38 2005 Subject: Concise list of different Mac models References: <3C0658BD.7090308@aconit.org> <01Nov29.130013est.119134@gateway.mediacen.navy.mil> <01Nov29.142719est.119085@gateway.mediacen.navy.mil> Message-ID: <3C06AE26.8020501@aconit.org> Jeff Hellige wrote: > Oooops...I know, I shouldn't reply to myself but the above link > should be: > > http://www.applespec.com/ > > The downloadable versions, plus mirrors, are located there. Thnaks that's what I needed. I did not realize that the data-base was downloadable. Nice setup. Anyways, I exported as csv and used excel to make up an 8 page list. Still bigger that I want but I can work on that Thanks again, -- hbp From optimus at canit.se Thu Nov 29 13:46:19 2001 From: optimus at canit.se (Iggy Drougge) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:11:38 2005 Subject: Macintosh In-Reply-To: <7A9BACCEF0171D4FB77019F5104CDD372259C8@jeffserver.tegjeff.com> Message-ID: <414.733T950T12464711optimus@canit.se> Douglas Quebbeman skrev: >> Could someone tell me what the last version of Macintosh System to run on >> 68K machines was? Where can I get a copy? >That would be System 6.0.8 Such utter rubbish. Version 8 was the last major release for 68k machines, though it usually would only install on '040 machines. -- En ligne avec Thor 2.6a. Amiga 4000/040 25MHz/64MB/20GB RetinaBLTZ3/VLab/FastlaneZ3/Ariadne/Toccata From jhellige at earthlink.net Thu Nov 29 15:58:16 2001 From: jhellige at earthlink.net (Jeff Hellige) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:11:38 2005 Subject: Macintosh In-Reply-To: <7A9BACCEF0171D4FB77019F5104CDD372259DD@jeffserver.tegjeff.com> References: <7A9BACCEF0171D4FB77019F5104CDD372259DD@jeffserver.tegjeff.com> Message-ID: > > > > Could someone tell me what the last version of Macintosh System to run >on >> >> 68K machines was? Where can I get a copy? >> > >> >That would be System 6.0.8, and you should be abe to >> >download it from Apple's FTP site. Try navigating >> >through the stuff at http://mirror.apple.com/. >> >> Actually, up to System 7.5.5 easily runs on 68k Mac's such as >> Quadra 605's (which use a 68040). I believe System 8.1 will also run >> on some 68k Mac's though 8.5 requires a PPC. For a minimalist >> machine, System 7.1 certainly runs well. > >A camel train has less latency than this list! I think the lag originates with me. For some reason, if I use the server at work to send out STMP mail as originating with my Earthlink account chances are most of the messages will be detained somewhere along the way, whether just a few minutes or at times it's been over a day. The actual hold appears to be done on the listserver end though as the mail seems to exit our server normally. Jeff -- Home of the TRS-80 Model 2000 FAQ File http://www.cchaven.com http://www.geocities.com/siliconvalley/lakes/6757 From jkaye at isd.net Thu Nov 29 16:09:56 2001 From: jkaye at isd.net (jkaye) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:11:38 2005 Subject: OT: Fear and helpfulness on classiccmp References: Message-ID: <3C06B234.17D2F518@isd.net> Ernest wrote: > > No judge is going to bother even looking at a case like that. Why? Because > no one but busy bodies and dim-witted spoil sports would be mean enough to > consider it in legal terms. The only people who would even pay attention to > it would be ex grade school hall monitors and meter maids -in other words, > people who have such meaningless and worthless lives that the only personal > joy they get from living is to try to make other people feel as pathetic as > they do. More along the lines of: How much money can we make off of this/you? If there is no money to be made, no one is going to waste the time. -- Joseph Kaye 1989 Lincoln Mark VII LSC 1995 Ford Aerostar XLT -80HP NOS System -Contemplating Nitrous Install... -B&M AOD Shift Kit -4.0 V6 / Electronic 4wd -Addco Swaybars and Koni Struts -ALL YOUR BASE ARE BELONG TO US From mythtech at Mac.com Thu Nov 29 16:14:53 2001 From: mythtech at Mac.com (Chris) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:11:39 2005 Subject: Scrapping hardware to get it off the books (RE: Is it a Lisa or Mac XL?!) Message-ID: >> Is there some law against selling the stuff in working condition? >Contract Law. While most surplus sales are outright sales many are contract >sales which may have restrictive clauses. How willing the scrapper is to >violate contract law, a civil matter, varies widely. Ok, so then there is no direct law that says items sold as scrap have to remain scrap. So if a company sells 1000 working computers as scrap, and doesn't specify that they have to be destroyed (although I am sure they would specify that), then the scrapper is under no obligation to trash them, and can sell them as working systems. That is kind of what I thought the deal would be (and should be). -chris From csmith at amdocs.com Thu Nov 29 16:21:41 2001 From: csmith at amdocs.com (Christopher Smith) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:11:39 2005 Subject: Compaq Presario 1200 Restore CDs Message-ID: <3B55D7F383B0D31197D9009027541CBF1170DEFD@cmiexch1.cmi.itds.com> > -----Original Message----- > From: Matt London [mailto:classiccmp@knm.yi.org] > jam. My girlfriend owns a compaq presario 1200 laptop, and the windows > install is b0rked (surprise surprise). The company she bought it from > refuse to supply her with the CDs and manuals that came with > it originally > (it was supplied as ex.demo as a replacement for a broken model they > couldn't replace exactly). I don't suppose you've suggested netbsd to her? ;) I suppose I'm lucky that mine hates windows _almost_ as much as I. Regards, Chris Christopher Smith, Perl Developer Amdocs - Champaign, IL /usr/bin/perl -e ' print((~"\x95\xc4\xe3"^"Just Another Perl Hacker.")."\x08!\n"); ' From dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com Thu Nov 29 16:22:59 2001 From: dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com (Douglas Quebbeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:11:39 2005 Subject: Scrapping hardware to get it off the books (RE: Is it a Lisa or Mac XL?!) Message-ID: <7A9BACCEF0171D4FB77019F5104CDD372259DF@jeffserver.tegjeff.com> > On Thu, 29 Nov 2001, Douglas Quebbeman wrote: > > > Should I even bother going back and asking to see the stuff in the > > yard? Or, has this firm agreed not to resell anything (I'm kinda > > assuming that what's true for this guy is industry standard). > > It never hurts to ask, right? > > Unless he chases you away with a shotgun loaded with rock salt. That > would hurt. My only concern is that I might get asked "are you the guy in the red Audi who was diggint through my stuff?" ;) -dq From dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com Thu Nov 29 16:25:48 2001 From: dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com (Douglas Quebbeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:11:39 2005 Subject: Scrapping hardware to get it off the books (RE: Is it a Lisa or Mac XL?!) Message-ID: <7A9BACCEF0171D4FB77019F5104CDD372259E0@jeffserver.tegjeff.com> > I doubt it. There may be very few contracts that require this sort of > thing, but honestly, if the company scrapping the equipment was that worried > about it, they'd scrap it themselves. I have heard that NSA does this, and > that further they (to paraphrase) "slag their disks and post armed guards > around the slag." it's true; a friend has a CDC 1700, formerly NSA property... and nothing that could hold software was part of the deal (although I think he got to keep the core). -dq From dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com Thu Nov 29 16:29:05 2001 From: dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com (Douglas Quebbeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:11:39 2005 Subject: Adobe Loss in California District Court, Good News for Classi cCmp rs Message-ID: <7A9BACCEF0171D4FB77019F5104CDD372259E1@jeffserver.tegjeff.com> > On Thu, 29 Nov 2001, Douglas Quebbeman wrote: > > > I'm not sure how many of you have seen this yet, but Adobe has lost a > > suit regarding the transferrability of software licenses. The court > > has rules that even if the wording of a license specifically prohibits > > the resale of the software by the original buyer to a new owner, the > > original owner is within their rights in doing so. > > > > Of course, without a doubt, Adobe will likely appeal this at least as > > far as the California Supreme Court. We can only hope they'll lose > > there as well. > > We can only hope that common sense will continue to prevail. We can only hope! -dq From dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com Thu Nov 29 16:30:40 2001 From: dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com (Douglas Quebbeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:11:39 2005 Subject: Concise list of different Mac models Message-ID: <7A9BACCEF0171D4FB77019F5104CDD372259E2@jeffserver.tegjeff.com> > Jeff Hellige wrote: > > > Oooops...I know, I shouldn't reply to myself but the above link > > should be: > > > > http://www.applespec.com/ > > > > The downloadable versions, plus mirrors, are located there. > > > Thnaks that's what I needed. I did not realize that the data-base was > downloadable. Nice setup. Anyways, I exported as csv and used excel to > make up an 8 page list. Still bigger that I want but I can work on that I didn't realize it was online! The only version I've seen was distributed on MacAddict disks in the last few years; ISTR it's a FileMaker application... which means it's probably a Fourth Dimension app.. -dq From csmith at amdocs.com Thu Nov 29 16:31:22 2001 From: csmith at amdocs.com (Christopher Smith) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:11:39 2005 Subject: History of Computing exam question Message-ID: <3B55D7F383B0D31197D9009027541CBF1170DEFE@cmiexch1.cmi.itds.com> > -----Original Message----- > From: Mark Tapley [mailto:mtapley@swri.edu] > Hans asked: > >List the 20 to 30 systems you would display and briefly explain the > >reason for choosing each. > Fun question. Don't have time to really organize, but here's > parts of my list: [snip] A few good ones you didn't mention: Starbridge sytems HAL A new production system that's completely FPGA based, and sports some pretty impressive performance numbers. Strictly speaking off-topic since it's a new machine... SGI Iris 2000 Likely the first serious (depending on your definition of the word) graphical workstation Amiga (any) Aside from being the epitome of desktop computing, it's the only system I know that's survived buy-outs Regards, Chris Christopher Smith, Perl Developer Amdocs - Champaign, IL /usr/bin/perl -e ' print((~"\x95\xc4\xe3"^"Just Another Perl Hacker.")."\x08!\n"); ' From mythtech at Mac.com Thu Nov 29 16:42:00 2001 From: mythtech at Mac.com (Chris) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:11:39 2005 Subject: Any value to anyone Message-ID: Are these of any value to anyone (ie: does anyone want these, sale/trade/pickup whatever): Intel branded 386 (looks like an AT clone like case). 8mb RAM, 40m IDE HD, 5.25 HD FDD, 3.5 HD FDD, VGA, 1 Parallel, 2 Serial, AT Keyboard, ISA slots. IBM 5160, 5.25 FDD, 3.5 FDD (both DD?), 20mb XT Hard Drive, CGA, 1 parallel, 1 serial. Neither are tested yet, I picked them up out of the garbage last night. I scored about a dozen machines in various condition. These are the only two of interest so far. (Others have been partially canabalized generic 286's, 386's and 486's... now they are totally canabalized, and the carcases have been dumpstered). If someone has some interest, I would be willing to test these machines, otherwise they too will be stripped untested and unneeded/wanted parts will be dumped. Also, I have an IBM ProPrinter, and some Epson cut sheet dot matrix printer thing, both also untested if anyone has an interest (at least these will eventually be tested and either shelved/traded/given away if working, or pitched if dead) I'll hold them until tomorrow (friday), but then they get stripped. -chris From mythtech at Mac.com Thu Nov 29 16:45:34 2001 From: mythtech at Mac.com (Chris) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:11:39 2005 Subject: Macintosh Message-ID: > I think the lag originates with me. For some reason, if I >use the server at work to send out STMP mail as originating with my >Earthlink account chances are most of the messages will be detained >somewhere along the way, whether just a few minutes or at times it's >been over a day. The actual hold appears to be done on the >listserver end though as the mail seems to exit our server normally. Interesting... I assumed it was due to the list server machine being used during the day for other tasks (or something else in the chain). Daytimes (normal business hours), seems to have about an hour lag between posting, and recieving (making a simply Q&A session take upwards of two hours to complete). But at night, I notice the lag is much lower (sometimes only a few minutes). Just my unscientific, "feel" for it (can't say I have ever timed it or looked at time stamps on the emails) -chris From geneb at deltasoft.com Thu Nov 29 17:56:38 2001 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (Gene Buckle) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:11:39 2005 Subject: Ampro Littleboard problems.. In-Reply-To: <008801c1791e$3b4d8380$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> Message-ID: On Thu, 29 Nov 2001, Richard Erlacher wrote: > I've got several copies. No need to pay 60 cents per sheet. If copies are > needed, I'll get them made for you at whatever the local minimum is, probably > about 5 cents/page, though I haven't used Kinko's in a few years. > Thanks for the offer Dick. Right now I'm just going to do some serious cleaning & reseating and see if that clears up the problem. g. From foo at siconic.com Thu Nov 29 16:44:00 2001 From: foo at siconic.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:11:39 2005 Subject: Scrapping hardware to get it off the books (RE: Is it a Lisa or Mac XL?!) In-Reply-To: <7A9BACCEF0171D4FB77019F5104CDD372259DF@jeffserver.tegjeff.com> Message-ID: On Thu, 29 Nov 2001, Douglas Quebbeman wrote: > > Unless he chases you away with a shotgun loaded with rock salt. That > > would hurt. > > My only concern is that I might get asked "are you the guy in > the red Audi who was diggint through my stuff?" Take the bus. Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org From mikeford at socal.rr.com Thu Nov 29 16:03:28 2001 From: mikeford at socal.rr.com (Mike Ford) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:11:39 2005 Subject: ThinNet coax hubs In-Reply-To: References: <000301c17881$70372120$09c7fec7@dionysus> Message-ID: A small batch of thinnet (coax) hubs has turned up at a surplus joint I visit, and I picked up a couple for my own amusement. Anybody want one let me know, price I am gussing at $5 to $10 and shipping from SoCal. (Maybe SynOptics, or Allied Tellsis) From geoffrob at stmarks.pp.catholic.edu.au Thu Nov 29 16:59:30 2001 From: geoffrob at stmarks.pp.catholic.edu.au (Geoff Roberts) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:11:39 2005 Subject: Adobe Loss in California District Court, Good News for ClassicCmp rs References: Message-ID: <003701c17929$818ac5a0$de2c67cb@helpdesk> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Sellam Ismail" To: Sent: Friday, November 30, 2001 7:44 AM Subject: Re: Adobe Loss in California District Court, Good News for ClassicCmp rs > On Thu, 29 Nov 2001, Douglas Quebbeman wrote: > > > I'm not sure how many of you have seen this yet, but Adobe has lost a > > suit regarding the transferrability of software licenses. The court > > has rules that even if the wording of a license specifically prohibits > > the resale of the software by the original buyer to a new owner, the > > original owner is within their rights in doing so. > > > > Of course, without a doubt, Adobe will likely appeal this at least as > > far as the California Supreme Court. We can only hope they'll lose > > there as well. > > We can only hope that common sense will continue to prevail. This is promising. That would mean all my VAX/VMS Layered product licenses that came on various vaxen I own(and which suffer from this issue - DEC maintained that only the O/S was transferrable) would be lawfully mine to use now. Geoff Roberts Computer Systems Manager Saint Mark's College Port Pirie, South Australia geoffrob@stmarks.pp.catholic.edu.au ICQ 1970476 From rhblakeman at kih.net Thu Nov 29 17:20:35 2001 From: rhblakeman at kih.net (Russ Blakeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:11:39 2005 Subject: Ebay: Tandy portable computer printer cable Message-ID: I just posted a Tandy 25-1409 cable on ebay that I though smeone here might be interested in. Look up item 1304091652 to see it. The package states that it's for "most portable computers" and has a centronics 36 on one side, IDS 26 female on the other. From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Nov 29 15:06:26 2001 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:11:39 2005 Subject: 5.25" low-capacity hard disks (was Re: Is it a Lisa or Mac XL?!) In-Reply-To: <20011129184655.37589.qmail@web20105.mail.yahoo.com> from "Ethan Dicks" at Nov 29, 1 10:46:55 am Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 3054 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20011129/0a90b1e1/attachment-0001.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Nov 29 13:58:48 2001 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:11:39 2005 Subject: PDP-8/E PowerSupply Part 2 In-Reply-To: from "Zane H. Healy" at Nov 29, 1 11:26:26 am Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1655 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20011129/b88d8749/attachment-0001.ksh From jhellige at earthlink.net Thu Nov 29 17:26:32 2001 From: jhellige at earthlink.net (Jeff Hellige) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:11:39 2005 Subject: Concise list of different Mac models In-Reply-To: <7A9BACCEF0171D4FB77019F5104CDD372259E2@jeffserver.tegjeff.com> References: <7A9BACCEF0171D4FB77019F5104CDD372259E2@jeffserver.tegjeff.com> Message-ID: > > Thnaks that's what I needed. I did not realize that the data-base was >> downloadable. Nice setup. Anyways, I exported as csv and used excel to >> make up an 8 page list. Still bigger that I want but I can work on that > >I didn't realize it was online! The only version I've seen was >distributed on MacAddict disks in the last few years; ISTR it's >a FileMaker application... which means it's probably a Fourth Dimension >app.. There are multiple versions of it online for both platforms...a standalone runtime and then one that requires you to have FM installed. I would imagine you'd have more control over the output and such if you had the full FM version. Jeff -- Home of the TRS-80 Model 2000 FAQ File http://www.cchaven.com http://www.geocities.com/siliconvalley/lakes/6757 From optimus at canit.se Thu Nov 29 16:06:02 2001 From: optimus at canit.se (Iggy Drougge) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:11:39 2005 Subject: Macintosh In-Reply-To: <3.0.2.32.20011129140344.018007c0@obregon.multi.net.co> Message-ID: <587.733T100T13863529optimus@canit.se> Carlos Murillo skrev: >>> Could someone tell me what the last version of Macintosh >>> System to run on >>> 68K machines was? Where can I get a copy? >> >>According to LowEndMac it's either 7.6.1 or 8.1 depending on the machine.... >8.1 is right, but you need a 68040. Well, not really. Amiga Mac emulators bypass that requirement, IIRC, and there is a similar program for real Macs. There is some info on LowendMac about that. -- En ligne avec Thor 2.6a. Iggy tipsar: Koppla aldrig en C128-transformator till en A500. ?ven om kontakterna ser likadana ut, ligger sp?nningarna fel. From rhblakeman at kih.net Thu Nov 29 17:36:37 2001 From: rhblakeman at kih.net (Russ Blakeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:11:39 2005 Subject: Martha Stewart In-Reply-To: Message-ID: I was going to mention that but last discussion about PS/2 towers as bed tables and PDP's for living room stuff got nasty so I thought I'd hold that thought :-) -> -----Original Message----- -> From: owner-classiccmp@classiccmp.org -> -> Sent: Thursday, November 29, 2001 11:52 AM -> To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org -> Subject: RE: Martha Stewart -> -> -> >Surprised she didn't preach using them as decorative items - a -> "good thing" -> -> You mean you don't use some of yours as decorative items or -> furnature? :^) -> -> Zane -> -- -> | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator | -> | healyzh@aracnet.com (primary) | OpenVMS Enthusiast | -> | | Classic Computer Collector | -> +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ -> | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | -> | PDP-10 Emulation and Zane's Computer Museum. | -> | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | -> From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Thu Nov 29 13:03:41 2001 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (Ben Franchuk) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:11:39 2005 Subject: Scrapping hardware to get it off the books (RE: Is it a Lisa or Mac XL?!) References: <7A9BACCEF0171D4FB77019F5104CDD372259DF@jeffserver.tegjeff.com> Message-ID: <3C06868D.829B1DC6@jetnet.ab.ca> Douglas Quebbeman wrote: > > > On Thu, 29 Nov 2001, Douglas Quebbeman wrote: > > > > > Should I even bother going back and asking to see the stuff in the > > > yard? Or, has this firm agreed not to resell anything (I'm kinda > > > assuming that what's true for this guy is industry standard). > > > > It never hurts to ask, right? > > > > Unless he chases you away with a shotgun loaded with rock salt. That > > would hurt. > > My only concern is that I might get asked "are you the guy in > the red Audi who was diggint through my stuff?" > > ;) > > -dq paint the car! :) -- Ben Franchuk --- Pre-historic Cpu's -- www.jetnet.ab.ca/users/bfranchuk/index.html From pcm2000 at teleline.es Thu Nov 29 18:24:28 2001 From: pcm2000 at teleline.es (Pedro A. Cabrera) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:11:39 2005 Subject: History of Computing exam question References: <3B55D7F383B0D31197D9009027541CBF1170DEFE@cmiexch1.cmi.itds.com> Message-ID: <3C06D1BC.AD60B1A6@teleline.es> Hi all, you should also include a Sinclair ZX-Spectrum 48K. This was the most sold home computer in Europe during the eighties, much more sold than the Commodore 64 (which had a factory in Germany). This small computer (Speccy as we name it) helped the spread of computing knowledge among thousands of people. Many of current european IT professionals started with it. I think it did a very important role in the recent history of computing in Europe. I know that in the USA things went a different way. regards, Pedro Christopher Smith wrote: > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: Mark Tapley [mailto:mtapley@swri.edu] > > > Hans asked: > > > >List the 20 to 30 systems you would display and briefly explain the > > >reason for choosing each. > > > Fun question. Don't have time to really organize, but here's > > parts of my list: > > [snip] > > A few good ones you didn't mention: > > Starbridge sytems HAL > > A new production system that's completely FPGA based, and sports some pretty > impressive performance numbers. > > Strictly speaking off-topic since it's a new machine... > > SGI Iris 2000 > > Likely the first serious (depending on your definition of the word) > graphical workstation > > Amiga (any) > > Aside from being the epitome of desktop computing, it's the only system I > know that's survived buy-outs > > Regards, > > Chris > > Christopher Smith, Perl Developer > Amdocs - Champaign, IL > > /usr/bin/perl -e ' > print((~"\x95\xc4\xe3"^"Just Another Perl Hacker.")."\x08!\n"); > ' > From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Nov 29 17:39:58 2001 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:11:39 2005 Subject: History of Computing exam question In-Reply-To: from "Mark Tapley" at Nov 29, 1 03:43:26 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 3075 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20011129/47846bc8/attachment-0001.ksh From steve at airborn.com.au Thu Nov 29 18:49:13 2001 From: steve at airborn.com.au (Steven Murray) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:11:39 2005 Subject: Dataproducts printer inteface Message-ID: <005e01c17938$d62eb800$4211083d@garuda> Does anyone have details on the signals used in the (old) Dataproducts printer inteface? Basically I know it uses differential signals - otherwise similar to centronics - but I would like details. I have the Pinout: http://www.hardwarebook.net/connector/parallel/dataproductsdsub50.html I would like a description of "Demand" signal and the polarity of "Strobe" and "OnLine" I would like to know the levels (I presume TTL) If anyone can help me out, perhaps I can respond in kind by giving them the final result - a circuit for a Centronics-->Dataproducts interface. steve@airborn.com.au From pete at dunnington.u-net.com Thu Nov 29 19:06:04 2001 From: pete at dunnington.u-net.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:11:39 2005 Subject: Martha Stewart In-Reply-To: opal.tseinc.com!dmc!njc "Re: Martha Stewart" (Nov 29, 13:47) References: <200111291847.NAA18572@CC47532-A.ewndsr1.nj.home.com> Message-ID: <10111300106.ZM1476@mindy.dunnington.u-net.com> On Nov 29, 13:47, Neil Cherry wrote: > Actually I'd like to find a nice way to hid various components so that > they don't show up at first glance. Of course this is related to my HA > background (hobby of course) and the fact that if I had a PDP 8 it > would look a little out of place in my living room (I've got the > garage and a computer for my 'stuff'). If you find a way, let me know. When I had fixed my PDP-8 and was running the inchworm program, Liz came to look and said something like "that'll be nice for Christmas, with those lights." So of course I suggested I move it into the lounge, but she didn't seem to think that would be good for my health :-) -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager University of York From ghldbrd at ccp.com Thu Nov 29 20:07:52 2001 From: ghldbrd at ccp.com (Gary Hildebrand) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:11:39 2005 Subject: Lexmark serial to parallel converter Message-ID: <3C06E9F8.D7A48C83@ccp.com> I recently picked up a Lexmark serial to parallel converter p/n 1363110 and was wondering if anyone on the list might have a setup doc on it? It has 12 dip switches and NO markings. I called Lexmark customer Service, and discovered that it is an oxymoron . . . . Gary Hildebrand St. Joseph, MO From pete at dunnington.u-net.com Thu Nov 29 19:15:59 2001 From: pete at dunnington.u-net.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:11:39 2005 Subject: OT: Compaq Presario 1200 Restore CDs In-Reply-To: Matt London "OT: Compaq Presario 1200 Restore CDs" (Nov 29, 20:22) References: Message-ID: <10111300115.ZM1494@mindy.dunnington.u-net.com> On Nov 29, 20:22, Matt London wrote: > Hi, > I know this is completely off topic for the list, but I'm in a bit of a > jam. My girlfriend owns a compaq presario 1200 laptop, and the windows > install is b0rked (surprise surprise). The company she bought it from > refuse to supply her with the CDs and manuals that came with it originally > (it was supplied as ex.demo as a replacement for a broken model they > couldn't replace exactly). > > Anyway, the result of this is I'm looking for someone who has said CDs > and wouldn't mind copying them, or even making isos for me, so I can get > her laptop up and running again. You may not need them. You can probably just do a standard Windows install, and add any special drivers you need. You can download most things from Compaq's website, look at http://www.compaq.com/athome/support/ If my (limited) experience of Compaqs is anything to go by, you're probably better off with a standard install anyway, all the special CDs seem to do is make backups of certain things and possibly configure the BIOS. You used to be able to get all the setup disks from Compaq's website, though I haven't looked at it for a while. -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager University of York From tothwolf at concentric.net Thu Nov 29 19:28:00 2001 From: tothwolf at concentric.net (Tothwolf) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:11:39 2005 Subject: 5.25" low-capacity hard disks (was Re: Is it a Lisa or Mac XL?!) In-Reply-To: <20011129184655.37589.qmail@web20105.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: On Thu, 29 Nov 2001, Ethan Dicks wrote: > --- Tony Duell wrote: > > > I beliueve that in the Apple Profile, only the ST506 HDA (and maybe the > > spindle motor board) is used. The standard control board is not. Instead > > there's an Apple board that connectes directly to the index sensor, > > cylinder 0 sensor, stepper motor, and heads. > > It's reasons like this that I buy the old 5.25" mechs I see. I was > profoundly disappointed this year when I bought a Tandon TM602S (as > found in a Commodore D9060 hard disk) for $5, only to find that all > the fine wires that enter and exit the HDA have been snipped. The > board is there, but there is no harness to plug into it. I suppose I > can test the board on one of the TM602S drives I have that work and > put it in the appropriate pile as a spare for the future. I have less > confidence I could restore the harness. I suppose that if I have a > head-crash someday, I could plunder its wiring, but there'd be the > risk that the wiring was removed because _that_ had already happened > to the previous owner. I bought a Toshiba 8086 laptop a few years ago at auction, and found someone had drilled the interface connector on the side of the drive. This particular drive has the platter motor directly mounted to the board, so the pcboard seals the media inside the housing. I ended up cleaning the outside of the drive best I could, and breaking it down inside lab grade plastic bags. I never have finished work on it, tho it's all still sealed in plastic, waiting for me to replace its interface connector... -Toth From tothwolf at concentric.net Thu Nov 29 19:35:36 2001 From: tothwolf at concentric.net (Tothwolf) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:11:39 2005 Subject: Martha Stewart In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Thu, 29 Nov 2001, Russ Blakeman wrote: > I was going to mention that but last discussion about PS/2 towers as bed > tables and PDP's for living room stuff got nasty so I thought I'd hold that > thought :-) Even tho I don't think they are considered "classics" quite yet...I've thought about using some of my old SGI 4D "single tower" boxes as tables in the den...Only hard part is hiding their huge 20A power cables if I want to keep using them :) -Toth From tothwolf at concentric.net Thu Nov 29 19:50:06 2001 From: tothwolf at concentric.net (Tothwolf) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:11:39 2005 Subject: Ampro Littleboard problems.. In-Reply-To: <7A9BACCEF0171D4FB77019F5104CDD372259DB@jeffserver.tegjeff.com> Message-ID: On Thu, 29 Nov 2001, Douglas Quebbeman wrote: > > > I presume that is a typo and it really is an FD-55B. Is it terminated? > > > > I wouldn't bet on it. There is an FD-54B. That Sanyo MBC555 MS-DOS > > machine has a couple of them in it (or at least mine does). I have no > > idea what the difference between the FD-54B and the FD-55B is, though. Teac has some pdf files on their .jp website. I found them once while using google to search for jumper settings for these drives. > Have a likely-dead one of those drives laying around, > should anyone be interested... I've got a huge box full Teac FD-55 drives somewhere. I think they all have the gray faceplate/levers instead of black or ivory. All of those drives were pulls from working equipment, so I think they are all in working order. I might be willing to get rid of just a few of these later, once I get everything moved into the new shop ;) -Toth From tothwolf at concentric.net Thu Nov 29 20:02:22 2001 From: tothwolf at concentric.net (Tothwolf) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:11:39 2005 Subject: OT: Compaq Presario 1200 Restore CDs In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Thu, 29 Nov 2001, Matt London wrote: > I know this is completely off topic for the list, but I'm in a bit of a > jam. My girlfriend owns a compaq presario 1200 laptop, and the windows > install is b0rked (surprise surprise). The company she bought it from > refuse to supply her with the CDs and manuals that came with it originally > (it was supplied as ex.demo as a replacement for a broken model they > couldn't replace exactly). > > Anyway, the result of this is I'm looking for someone who has said CDs > and wouldn't mind copying them, or even making isos for me, so I can get > her laptop up and running again. > > Thanks a lot guys - I'll try not to be off topic in future :&) You can get the quickrestore and softpaq cds at no change from Compaq: http://www.compaq.com/corporate/overview/s_s_and_train.html You'll need the model and serial numbers from the machine when you call them. The serial number is usually on a white sticker on the side and back of the machine. -Toth From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Thu Nov 29 15:00:21 2001 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (Ben Franchuk) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:11:39 2005 Subject: History of Computing exam question References: Message-ID: <3C06A1E5.4F6DB6E2@jetnet.ab.ca> Tony Duell wrote: rganised, and doubtless some of the > > [1] The PE Digical may be one of the first hobbyist calculators > (published 1972, all built from TTL chips), but it wasn't programmable. > Stick it on the list if you like. Got more details??? > Other machines that maybe should be on the list are Cray 1 (famous > supercomputer), CDC Cyber (or whatever the early supercomputer was > called), Inmos ITEM (transputer based machine, to remind us of a > wonderful CPU that went (almost) nowhere), Apple Lisa, Apple Mac 128, > VAX11/780 How about mine -- brings octal back to computer programing. :) There is shortage of 12/24 bit cpu's you know. > -tony -- Ben Franchuk --- Pre-historic Cpu's -- www.jetnet.ab.ca/users/bfranchuk/index.html From Innfogra at aol.com Thu Nov 29 20:50:20 2001 From: Innfogra at aol.com (Innfogra@aol.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:11:39 2005 Subject: Scrapping hardware to get it off the books (RE: Is it a Lisa or Mac XL?!) Message-ID: In a message dated 11/29/01 2:39:57 PM Pacific Standard Time, dhquebbeman@theestopinalgroup.com writes: > My only concern is that I might get asked "are you the guy in > the red Audi who was diggint through my stuff?" > I don't think you have to worry about a few Apples. They are more plastic than scrap. Apple II breakage is worth about 6 cents per pound In one warehouse we rented in NW Portland over a decade ago we used to roll out pallets of valueless stuff (filmstrip projectors, school electronics, old terminals not worth taking apart) and leave it on the sidewalk overnight. We would then go up several floors and watch people go by, screech to a halt and fill their cars with as much as they could cram in. We had a great time watching and it cut our garbage bill in half. Valuable stuff doesn't get left outside. Go ask. You will be rewarded with surprises. Let us know what you find. If you are interested in purchasing some of his scrap, offer him twice the scrap value. If you or anyone on the list needs help establishing scrap values please contact me offline. Paxton Astoria, OR -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20011129/a8d5568f/attachment-0001.html From cmurillo at emtelsa.multi.net.co Thu Nov 29 21:21:04 2001 From: cmurillo at emtelsa.multi.net.co (Carlos Murillo) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:11:39 2005 Subject: Slowdown util for 486/586 systems to emulate XT/AT systems In-Reply-To: <40.15256962.2937f9b3@aol.com> Message-ID: <3.0.2.32.20011129222104.018240d0@obregon.multi.net.co> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text/enriched Size: 534 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20011129/c7b02220/attachment-0001.bin From geneb at deltasoft.com Thu Nov 29 21:37:26 2001 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (Gene Buckle) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:11:39 2005 Subject: Littleboard Lives! In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <000701c17950$54bb7340$09c7fec7@dionysus> It's kind of odd hearing a 5.25 disk being formatted after all these years. :) Of the disks I have with the system, I seem to be missing the tools to format a hard drive for the machine. They're "H" tools - HINIT, HFORMAT, etc. If anyone here has them, I'd really appriciate getting copies! FYI, my BIOS revision is 3.8 - 3.0 is the min rev listed in the manual. Thanks! G. From donm at cts.com Fri Nov 30 00:23:11 2001 From: donm at cts.com (Don Maslin) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:11:39 2005 Subject: Scrapping hardware to get it off the books (RE: Is it a Lisa or Mac XL?!) In-Reply-To: <7A9BACCEF0171D4FB77019F5104CDD372259E0@jeffserver.tegjeff.com> Message-ID: On Thu, 29 Nov 2001, Douglas Quebbeman wrote: > > I doubt it. There may be very few contracts that require this sort of > > thing, but honestly, if the company scrapping the equipment was that worried > > about it, they'd scrap it themselves. I have heard that NSA does this, and > > that further they (to paraphrase) "slag their disks and post armed guards > > around the slag." > > it's true; a friend has a CDC 1700, formerly NSA property... > and nothing that could hold software was part of the deal > (although I think he got to keep the core). > > -dq > I picked up a little Miniscribe 3.5" HD at a swap meet a few years ago that carried a sticker stating that it had been rendered clean by NSA. They must really have a stout degausser for that job. This one was so `neutralized' that even the drive motor would not spin up. - don From jss at subatomix.com Fri Nov 30 00:36:25 2001 From: jss at subatomix.com (Jeffrey S. Sharp) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:11:39 2005 Subject: Any value to anyone In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20011130003524.C44423-100000@lepton.subatomix.com> On Thu, 29 Nov 2001, Chris wrote: > Are these of any value to anyone (ie: does anyone want these, > sale/trade/pickup whatever): Ok, I think it's my turn to ask the obligatory "Where?" -- Jeffrey S. Sharp jss@subatomix.com From CLeyson at aol.com Fri Nov 30 00:36:16 2001 From: CLeyson at aol.com (CLeyson@aol.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:11:39 2005 Subject: History of Computing exam question Message-ID: <159.4f3fe82.293882e0@aol.com> Tony Duell wrote: > [1] The PE Digical may be one of the first hobbyist calculators > (published 1972, all built from TTL chips), but it wasn't programmable. > Stick it on the list if you like. Sorry no details, but there was a similar design in Wireless World, circa 1968/9 - built from DTL I think. Chris Leyson -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20011130/d28dbb22/attachment-0001.html From fortune at 12ji.com Fri Nov 30 00:33:55 2001 From: fortune at 12ji.com (Anne Collins) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:11:39 2005 Subject: Your fortune of the week Message-ID: <3222855-220011153063355370@12ji.com> Skipped content of type multipart/alternative From donm at cts.com Fri Nov 30 00:53:04 2001 From: donm at cts.com (Don Maslin) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:11:39 2005 Subject: CompatiCard I manual Message-ID: Can anyone point me at a scan of the manual for the Compaticard I (or even II). I thought that I was smart enough to make a Xerox copy when I had one, but if so I am not smart enough to find it :( Thanks. - don From donm at cts.com Fri Nov 30 00:55:02 2001 From: donm at cts.com (Don Maslin) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:11:39 2005 Subject: Littleboard Lives! In-Reply-To: <000701c17950$54bb7340$09c7fec7@dionysus> Message-ID: On Thu, 29 Nov 2001, Gene Buckle wrote: > It's kind of odd hearing a 5.25 disk being formatted after all these > years. :) > > Of the disks I have with the system, I seem to be missing the tools to > format a hard drive for the machine. > They're "H" tools - HINIT, HFORMAT, etc. If anyone here has them, I'd > really appriciate getting copies! FYI, my BIOS revision is 3.8 - 3.0 is > the min rev listed in the manual. Gene, I have those and will email them to you. - don From geoffr at zipcon.net Fri Nov 30 01:06:25 2001 From: geoffr at zipcon.net (Geoff Reed) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:11:39 2005 Subject: Ampro Littleboard problems.. In-Reply-To: <008801c1791e$3b4d8380$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> References: <3c06a152dcc480.45418957@zipcon.net> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20011129230559.04292460@mail.zipcon.net> if you have a scanner, you could turn them into a PDF :) I was just trying to be helpful.... At 02:38 PM 11/29/01 -0700, you wrote: >I've got several copies. No need to pay 60 cents per sheet. If copies are >needed, I'll get them made for you at whatever the local minimum is, probably >about 5 cents/page, though I haven't used Kinko's in a few years. > >Dick > >----- Original Message ----- >From: >To: >Sent: Thursday, November 29, 2001 1:57 PM >Subject: Re: Re: Ampro Littleboard problems.. > > > > > > http://njcc.com/~hjohnson/s_drives.html > > > > Has the manual for sale, 30 pages @ 25C a page.... > > > > > On Wed, 28 Nov 2001, Gene Buckle wrote: > > > > > > I've got a Littleboard I'm tring to bring up. When I feed it a disk, > > > and power it up, it will select the drive, spin it and shut down after > > > about 3 to 5 seconds. I never hear a head step. Nothing shows up on the > > > serial port (port a, 9600). The drive I'm using is a Teac FD-54B-02-U > > > and the two jumpers are set to DS0 and IU. > > > > > > From hansp at aconit.org Fri Nov 30 01:44:31 2001 From: hansp at aconit.org (Hans B Pufal) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:11:39 2005 Subject: Wireless World Digital Computer - 1967 References: <159.4f3fe82.293882e0@aol.com> Message-ID: <3C0738DF.8080307@aconit.org> CLeyson@aol.com wrote: > Tony Duell wrote: > > [1] The PE Digical may be one of the first hobbyist calculators > > (published 1972, all built from TTL chips), but it wasn't programmable. > > Stick it on the list if you like. > > Sorry no details, but there was a similar design in Wireless World, > circa 1968/9 - built from DTL I think. In August 1967, Wireless World published the first of four articles describing the "Wireless World Digital Computer": "Low cost desk top binary machine for small-scale calcualtions and for use in schools as a teaching aid, designed by B. Crank of "Wireless World" staff. Numbers are fed in manually and results of calcultaions are read from inicator lamps. Instructions entered in binary coded form by a set of switches, are interpreted and carried out automatically by the machine." Constructed from reject germanium transistors, the total cost of parts was estimated at UKP 50. If there is interest I can scan the articles. -- hbp From frustum at pacbell.net Fri Nov 30 01:45:56 2001 From: frustum at pacbell.net (Jim Battle) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:11:39 2005 Subject: History of Computing exam question In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4.3.2.7.0.20011129230300.00a9df00@postoffice.pacbell.net> At 11:39 PM 11/29/01 +0000, Tony Duell wrote: >... >[1] The PE Digical may be one of the first hobbyist calculators >(published 1972, all built from TTL chips), but it wasn't programmable. Please do tell more. I did a quick google search but didn't turn up anything. ----- Jim Battle == frustum@pacbell.net From mikeford at socal.rr.com Fri Nov 30 04:48:57 2001 From: mikeford at socal.rr.com (Mike Ford) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:11:39 2005 Subject: Scrapping hardware to get it off the books In-Reply-To: Message-ID: > In one warehouse we rented in NW Portland over a decade ago we used to >roll out pallets of valueless stuff (filmstrip projectors, school >electronics, old terminals not worth taking apart) and leave it on the >sidewalk overnight. We would then go up several floors and watch people go >by, > If you are interested in purchasing some of his scrap, offer him twice >the scrap value. If you or anyone on the list needs help establishing >scrap values please contact me offline. Lots of smaller scrap places do that, leave stuff in the alley etc. The trouble is that many scavengers strip the item and leave a mess, ie screws all over. Isn't there some kind of industry wide price list for scrap? Most of the time seems to me the haggling isn't over the price, but what grade your junk is. Buying stuff you have to hit the happy medium, offer too much and you make people curious, offer too little and it isn't worth their time. My most recent purchase has been insulated wire, first batch was a mix of misc wire, cat 5, and some computer cables with connectors. We started at $1.50/lb, but I found a bunch of stuff in the pile so I ended up with 40 lbs, and talked the guy down to $1/lb. Second batch was 180 lbs of wire on spools, mostly 20 guage hookup wire, at the same $1/lb. The way I figure it now we paid a premium on the first batch (lower grade scrap), and got a steal on the second, but in actual value terms to me the first batch was worth more than the second per pound. I've seen companies go both ways on scrapping stuff to get it off the books. The hardline view is that stuff must be trashed and not recovered, but in almost all BIGGER operations selling stuff as scrap is the normal practice. I gotta figure a lot of times the Monday after some hard nose dumps all the old stuff and puts a lock on the trash bins, that there boss does a You Did What! From hansp at aconit.org Fri Nov 30 05:45:35 2001 From: hansp at aconit.org (Hans B Pufal) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:11:39 2005 Subject: Scrapping hardware to get it off the books References: Message-ID: <3C07715F.6020103@aconit.org> It can get down right ridiculous. I once worked for a company in the UK who were working on some hardare which was being developed in Japan. The Japanese sent over three or four prototypes which, for reasons I now forget, we never used. A few months after the Japanese asked that we ship the protoypes back for scrapping! I dread to think of the costs involved. -- hbp From vze2mnvr at verizon.net Fri Nov 30 06:14:09 2001 From: vze2mnvr at verizon.net (Ian Koller) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:11:40 2005 Subject: Is it a Lisa or Mac XL?! References: Message-ID: <3C077811.EC21ABDE@verizon.net> "George Leo Rachor Jr." wrote: > I understand discontinuing a product but could never quite > figure out why you would actually destroy equipment. I mean > what is the point? Because someone, if they got their hands on it, would try to send in that old drive a second time for another free new upgrade one, even though they weren't entitled to it. In their position, I'd destroy them in a heartbeat. They represented a future potential liability. Ian "They got two good eyes, and they still can't see ..." > > George > > ========================================================= > George L. Rachor Jr. george@rachors.com > Hillsboro, Oregon http://rachors.com > United States of America Amateur Radio : KD7DCX > > On Wed, 28 Nov 2001, Chris wrote: > > > I think I read somewhere, that Apple had guards watching the landfill > > until they were satisfied that all the lisa's had been crushed beyond > > hope. But who knows, that could just be a story, and they may all be > > sitting in a pile somewhere waiting to be booted. > > > > -chris > > > > > > > > From vze2mnvr at verizon.net Fri Nov 30 06:28:21 2001 From: vze2mnvr at verizon.net (Ian Koller) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:11:40 2005 Subject: Is it a Lisa or Mac XL?! References: <3C0624DC.B58F16CE@home.com> Message-ID: <3C077B65.E506AA73@verizon.net> > No, but it smacks of that unique term "demilitarize" > Airman knocking holes in the bottom of 5 gal gas cans prior to stacking > them for auction ... very effective demilitarizion. I understand the need to "de-mil" gear like radios on reserved frequencies, crypto gear, weapons, etc. but you're saying they had to de-mil a "jerry can"? You sure it wasn't just a desire to justify scrapping it so they could get some new ones, or find a way to burn some budget money so next year's budget wouldn't be reduced. Both go on, but aren't the same thing as "de-milling" Craig Smith wrote: > > No, but it smacks of that unique term "demilitarize" that the US > military is so fond of! I've seen them removing electronics with a > cutting torch!! and just to make sure it's totaly unusable, dropping the > radios out of the planes cockpit onto the runway. > Or, my other favorite example .. at McDill AFB in Tampa, I watched an > Airman knocking holes in the bottom of 5 gal gas cans prior to stacking > them for auction ... very effective demilitarizion. > Craig > > Sellam Ismail wrote: > > > > On Wed, 28 Nov 2001, Chris wrote: > > > > > So by destroying them beyond hope... they remove them from the market > > > 100%. > > > > > > I personally think this is stupid, but hey, I don't run apple, and > > > they seem to have their own form of logic. > > > > This is not a practice unique to Apple. This is not even a practice > > unique to the computer industry. > > > > Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org From dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com Fri Nov 30 06:28:51 2001 From: dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com (Douglas Quebbeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:11:40 2005 Subject: List Really Does Look Like It's Been Breached Message-ID: <7A9BACCEF0171D4FB77019F5104CDD372259E5@jeffserver.tegjeff.com> Ok, I got plain-old SPAM (well, it was HTML, but seemingly free of virii) this morning with these headers: ============================================================ Received: from opal.tseinc.com ([209.83.143.19]) by jeffserver.tegjeff.com with SMTP (Microsoft Exchange Internet Mail Service Version 5.5.2653.13) id X671RYZ5; Fri, 30 Nov 2001 02:08:49 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by opal.tseinc.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id AAA05267 for classiccmp-classiccmp-org-outgoing; Fri, 30 Nov 2001 00:46:50 -0600 (CST) (envelope-from owner-classiccmp@classiccmp.org) X-Authentication-Warning: opal.tseinc.com: majordom set sender to owner-classiccmp@classiccmp.org using -f Received: from 3w-smtp-ad.korea.com ([211.109.1.114]) by opal.tseinc.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id AAA05262 for ; Fri, 30 Nov 2001 00:46:48 -0600 (CST) (envelope-from fortune@12ji.com) Received: from 3w-pop3-ai.korea.com ([172.31.1.12]) by 3w-smtp-ad.korea.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(5.0.2195.3651); Fri, 30 Nov 2001 15:45:17 +0900 Received: from 3w-pop3-ai.korea.com ([127.0.0.1]) by 3w-pop3-ai.korea.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(5.0.2195.3651); Fri, 30 Nov 2001 15:45:12 +0900 Received: from 211.109.1.13 by 3w-pop3-ai.korea.com (InterScan E-Mail VirusWall NT); Fri, 30 Nov 2001 15:44:54 +0900 Received: from 12ji.com ([211.186.123.108]) by 3w-pop3-ac.korea.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(5.0.2195.3651); Fri, 30 Nov 2001 15:44:03 +0900 Message-ID: <3222855-220011153063355370@12ji.com> X-EM-Version: 6, 0, 1, 0 X-EM-Registration: #00F06206106618006920 X-Priority: 3 To: "12ji" From: "Anne Collins" Subject: Your fortune of the week Date: Fri, 30 Nov 2001 15:33:55 +0900 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="------------InterScan_NT_MIME_Boundary" X-OriginalArrivalTime: 30 Nov 2001 06:44:03.0482 (UTC) FILETIME=[666A47A0:01C1796A] Sender: owner-classiccmp@classiccmp.org Precedence: bulk Reply-To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org --------------InterScan_NT_MIME_Boundary Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8" ------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" ------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8 Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable ------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8-- ============================================================ We need a moderation mechanism of some kind. The newsgroup alt.sysadmin.recovery requires the presence of a special header in order for the post to appear. Can we do that for the list, or will the SPAMbots just walk around that Maginot line? -dq From dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com Fri Nov 30 06:30:48 2001 From: dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com (Douglas Quebbeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:11:40 2005 Subject: Macintosh Message-ID: <7A9BACCEF0171D4FB77019F5104CDD372259E6@jeffserver.tegjeff.com> > Douglas Quebbeman skrev: > > >> Could someone tell me what the last version of Macintosh System to run on > >> 68K machines was? Where can I get a copy? > > >That would be System 6.0.8 > > Such utter rubbish. Version 8 was the last major release for 68k machines, > though it usually would only install on '040 machines. The latency to Holland is even worse than thw camel-train... -dq From vze2mnvr at verizon.net Fri Nov 30 06:34:35 2001 From: vze2mnvr at verizon.net (Ian Koller) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:11:40 2005 Subject: Scrapping hardware to get it off the books References: <3C07715F.6020103@aconit.org> Message-ID: <3C077CDB.54063CE8@verizon.net> > A few months after the Japanese asked that we ship the protoypes > back for scrapping! I dread to think of the costs involved. It doesn't matter. The value of their intellectual property and trade secrets, and the need to control them, so far outweigh those shipping costs. Ian "They got two good eyes, but they still can't see ..." Hans B Pufal wrote: > > It can get down right ridiculous. > > I once worked for a company in the UK who were working on some hardare > which was being developed in Japan. The Japanese sent over three or four > prototypes which, for reasons I now forget, we never used. A few months > after the Japanese asked that we ship the protoypes back for scrapping! > > I dread to think of the costs involved. > > -- hbp From dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com Fri Nov 30 06:37:34 2001 From: dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com (Douglas Quebbeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:11:40 2005 Subject: Scrapping hardware to get it off the books (RE: Is it a Lisa or Mac XL?!) Message-ID: <7A9BACCEF0171D4FB77019F5104CDD372259E7@jeffserver.tegjeff.com> On Thu, 29 Nov 2001, Douglas Quebbeman wrote: > > > > Unless he chases you away with a shotgun loaded with rock salt. That > > > would hurt. > > > > My only concern is that I might get asked "are you the guy in > > the red Audi who was diggint through my stuff?" > > Take the bus. HAHAHHAHAHA! Louisville has the Transit Authority of River City (TARC), and a few busses and shuttles come over across the Ohio to Indiana, but no way is it anything like you can stand on a corner, go somewhere in Indiana, get off, do something, etc. There isn't even a bus route I can take home from work (though there is one I can take *to* work)... -dq From dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com Fri Nov 30 06:40:56 2001 From: dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com (Douglas Quebbeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:11:40 2005 Subject: Scrapping hardware to get it off the books (RE: Is it a Lisa or Mac XL?!) Message-ID: <7A9BACCEF0171D4FB77019F5104CDD372259E8@jeffserver.tegjeff.com> > > My only concern is that I might get asked "are you the guy in > > the red Audi who was diggint through my stuff?" > > > > ;) > > > > -dq > > paint the car! > :) Good suggestion... I never wanted to own a red car, red paint adds 20mph to the apparant land speed... -dq From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Fri Nov 30 07:23:03 2001 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (Allison) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:11:40 2005 Subject: Littleboard Lives! Message-ID: <000601c179a2$25662ac0$6b7b7b7b@ajp> I have them, I need to dig and transfer to PC though. Allison -----Original Message----- From: Gene Buckle To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org Date: Thursday, November 29, 2001 10:58 PM Subject: Littleboard Lives! >It's kind of odd hearing a 5.25 disk being formatted after all these >years. :) > >Of the disks I have with the system, I seem to be missing the tools to >format a hard drive for the machine. >They're "H" tools - HINIT, HFORMAT, etc. If anyone here has them, I'd >really appriciate getting copies! FYI, my BIOS revision is 3.8 - 3.0 is >the min rev listed in the manual. > >Thanks! > >G. > From rigdonj at intellistar.net Fri Nov 30 08:13:10 2001 From: rigdonj at intellistar.net (Joe) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:11:40 2005 Subject: Scrapping hardware to get it off the books In-Reply-To: <3C07715F.6020103@aconit.org> References: Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20011130091310.007a0240@mailhost.intellistar.net> At 12:45 PM 11/30/01 +0100, you wrote: >It can get down right ridiculous. > >I once worked for a company in the UK who were working on some hardare >which was being developed in Japan. The Japanese sent over three or four >prototypes which, for reasons I now forget, we never used. A few months >after the Japanese asked that we ship the protoypes back for scrapping! > >I dread to think of the costs involved. Last year I bought a LARGE crate full of brand new sealed boxs of 8" floppy disks for $50. After buying it I found that the company had shipped them back to the US from Germany, never opened the crate and then sold it for scrap. I'm sure they scrapper gave them less than $10 for the whole thing. I must have cost them 50 times that to ship them back from Germany. Joe From rigdonj at intellistar.net Fri Nov 30 08:26:58 2001 From: rigdonj at intellistar.net (Joe) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:11:40 2005 Subject: Up for Grabs: Intel ICE boxs and pods Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20011130092658.007af640@mailhost.intellistar.net> I found two large white Intel boxs yesterday. They're not labeled but I think they're the old Intel ICE boxs. There's also two pods with them, one is for a iAPX 186 an the other is for an iAPX 286 (80186 CPU and 80286 CPU for the ones of you that don't speak Intel). The boxs are about 18" wide x 24" deep x 12" high. They look complete and intact. I'm sure the owner has no idea what they are and would sell them cheap ($20?-$40?). They're located on the east side of Orlando. If anyone wants them contqct me and I'll point you to them. But I DO NOT have the room to store them or the time to ship them. I've been giving and throwing away my own stuff due to lack of room so don't ask me to yours. If you want them you'll have to come get them or make arrnagements for someone else to store/ship them to you. Joe From csmith at amdocs.com Fri Nov 30 09:56:14 2001 From: csmith at amdocs.com (Christopher Smith) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:11:40 2005 Subject: History of Computing exam question Message-ID: <3B55D7F383B0D31197D9009027541CBF1170DF00@cmiexch1.cmi.itds.com> > -----Original Message----- > From: ard@p850ug1.demon.co.uk [mailto:ard@p850ug1.demon.co.uk] > Here's my list. It's a bit disorganised, and doubtless some of the > machines shouldn't really be there, but anyway. I am going to [snip] Ok, one more for me: Symbolics lisp machine (whatever model...) Incredibly advanced for the time... maybe even for today. Regards, Chris Christopher Smith, Perl Developer Amdocs - Champaign, IL /usr/bin/perl -e ' print((~"\x95\xc4\xe3"^"Just Another Perl Hacker.")."\x08!\n"); ' From foxvideo at wincom.net Fri Nov 30 10:01:04 2001 From: foxvideo at wincom.net (Charles E. Fox) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:11:40 2005 Subject: Wireless World Digital Computer - 1967 In-Reply-To: <3C0738DF.8080307@aconit.org> References: <159.4f3fe82.293882e0@aol.com> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20011130105853.00b15ba0@mail.wincom.net> > >In August 1967, Wireless World published the first of four articles describing > >the "Wireless World Digital Computer": > > > "Low cost desk top binary machine for small-scale calcualtions > and for use in schools as a teaching aid, designed by B. Crank > of "Wireless World" staff. Numbers are fed in manually and > results of calcultaions are read from inicator lamps. Instructions > entered in binary coded form by a set of switches, are interpreted > and carried out automatically by the machine." > >Constructed from reject germanium transistors, the total cost of parts was >estimated at UKP 50. > >If there is interest I can scan the articles. > > -- hbp > > > Hi, Hans: I, for one, would be very interested in getting a copy of the articles. Regards Charlie Fox Charles E. Fox Video Production 793 Argyle Rd. Windsor, Ontario, Canada, N8Y3J8 foxvideo@wincom.net Check out the Camcorder Kindergarten at http://chasfoxvideo.com From edick at idcomm.com Fri Nov 30 10:13:39 2001 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:11:40 2005 Subject: Ampro Littleboard problems.. References: <3c06a152dcc480.45418957@zipcon.net> <5.1.0.14.2.20011129230559.04292460@mail.zipcon.net> Message-ID: <003501c179b9$f93204c0$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> I agree, though it's not practical for me to do that right now. Also, I haven't got the tools to generate PDF's. I generally pass along the TIF files from the scan, and allow the end-user to figure out what to do with them. The normally just print them. Since the schematics are 'B' sized, it wouldn't be easy to make decent scans of them anyway, as my scanners max out at legal size. If he'd wanted the doc's, they'd already be in the mail. If I were scanning, I'd still be at it. My experience with Herb Johnson is that his documents are seldom complete. Now, what he's offered has always been WAY better than nothing, but it's terribly frustrating to buy a manual at $0.60 per sheet only to find it really doesn't contain what you need. Of course there's no way for him to know what you need, but you get what I mean. In a floppy disk OEM manual, if the sheet with the user-installable option jumpers is missing, the whole manual is worthless, though, so I'd be sure to ask him to ensure that all the pages are there, and, in fact, I'd personally prefer to buy just that page. Dick ----- Original Message ----- From: "Geoff Reed" To: Sent: Friday, November 30, 2001 12:06 AM Subject: Re: Re: Ampro Littleboard problems.. > if you have a scanner, you could turn them into a PDF :) I was just trying > to be helpful.... > > At 02:38 PM 11/29/01 -0700, you wrote: > >I've got several copies. No need to pay 60 cents per sheet. If copies are > >needed, I'll get them made for you at whatever the local minimum is, probably > >about 5 cents/page, though I haven't used Kinko's in a few years. > > > >Dick > > > >----- Original Message ----- > >From: > >To: > >Sent: Thursday, November 29, 2001 1:57 PM > >Subject: Re: Re: Ampro Littleboard problems.. > > > > > > > > > > http://njcc.com/~hjohnson/s_drives.html > > > > > > Has the manual for sale, 30 pages @ 25C a page.... > > > > > > > On Wed, 28 Nov 2001, Gene Buckle wrote: > > > > > > > > I've got a Littleboard I'm tring to bring up. When I feed it a disk, > > > > and power it up, it will select the drive, spin it and shut down after > > > > about 3 to 5 seconds. I never hear a head step. Nothing shows up on the > > > > serial port (port a, 9600). The drive I'm using is a Teac FD-54B-02-U > > > > and the two jumpers are set to DS0 and IU. > > > > > > > > > > > From dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com Fri Nov 30 10:13:50 2001 From: dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com (Douglas Quebbeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:11:40 2005 Subject: Up for Grabs: Intel ICE boxs and pods Message-ID: <7A9BACCEF0171D4FB77019F5104CDD372259EE@jeffserver.tegjeff.com> > I found two large white Intel boxs yesterday. They're not labeled but I > think they're the old Intel ICE boxs. There's also two pods with them, one > is for a iAPX 186 an the other is for an iAPX 286 (80186 CPU and 80286 CPU > for the ones of you that don't speak Intel). This brings up an interesting piece of trivia... Has anyone ever seen one of the prototype iAPX386 chips? The iAPX386 was what would have been sold as the 80386, but the prelim documents I've got don't describe the virtual 8086 mode that was present in the shipped 80386 chips. The name change happened during the lawsuit with AMD. Under a technology swap agreement, Intel should have forwarded the info on the 386 to AMD. But ultimately, AMD had to clean-room engineer their 386 clone chip. I always thought that Intel changed the name from the iAPX line to what was actually the part number (i.e. the iAPX286 had the part number 80286), and also made slight changes to the feature set, just for the purpose of being able to say to AMD "well, we would give you the iAPX386, but we decided not to produce it." -dq From vance at ikickass.org Fri Nov 30 10:54:07 2001 From: vance at ikickass.org (One Without Reason) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:11:40 2005 Subject: History of Computing exam question In-Reply-To: Message-ID: I'm curious, Tony? Why the PDP-6 and not the PDP-7? Sure, the PDP-6 was used in AI development, but UNIX was written on a PDP-7. Peace... Sridhar On Thu, 29 Nov 2001, Tony Duell wrote: > Here's my list. It's a bit disorganised, and doubtless some of the > machines shouldn't really be there, but anyway. I am going to assume that > this wonderful technology that can grab any machine from the past can > also recreate a machine from the blueprints, even if it was never > actually made. That way I can have the first machine on my list : > From Adrian.Graham at corporatemicrosystems.com Fri Nov 30 11:13:33 2001 From: Adrian.Graham at corporatemicrosystems.com (Adrian Graham) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:11:40 2005 Subject: Antron MST300 (was:RE: Up for Grabs: Intel ICE boxs and pods) Message-ID: <556916EBC364D511826400508B9A1ADE021911@cmlpdc.corporatemicrosystems.com> Speaking of chip testers has anyone come across the Antron company and their testing equipment? Antron are still going and still selling test kit to the likes of Compaq, but since they didn't reply to my email I'm assuming they had no old documentation. Basically the MST300 is a 386 based PC with 2 extra ISA cards that interface with the testing 'pods'. I've got pods for the 8086, 80286, 80386SX and DX, Moto 68K and I'm still not sure what they were supposed to be testing! I'll post pix on Binary Dinosaurs when I get 'em taken :) -- Adrian Graham, Corporate Microsystems Ltd e: adrian.graham@corporatemicrosystems.com w: www.corporatemicrosystems.com w2: www.binarydinosaurs.co.uk (Online Computer Museum) From Innfogra at aol.com Fri Nov 30 11:17:03 2001 From: Innfogra at aol.com (Innfogra@aol.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:11:40 2005 Subject: Scrapping hardware to get it off the book Message-ID: <169.4d77135.2939190f@aol.com> In a message dated 11/30/01 6:20:17 AM Pacific Standard Time, rigdonj@intellistar.net writes: > must have cost them 50 times that to ship them back from Germany The BIIN computers we scrapped were originally air freighted from Germany. We opend the crates and took them apart. They were brand new, but Intel and Siemens didn't want them out there. This was a certified destruction contract otherwise I would have kept one. I already had all the SW. I bet the cost to scrap ratio was more like 5000 to 1. Siemens lost a bunch of money on that project. (Intel owned 5% and Siemens 95%.) Paxton Astoria, OR -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20011130/bbc11247/attachment-0001.html From bbrown at harper.cc.il.us Fri Nov 30 12:08:00 2001 From: bbrown at harper.cc.il.us (Bob Brown) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:11:40 2005 Subject: History of Computing exam question In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I would add: HP2000 timeshare system..widely used, often provided the first exposure to computers that got many of us started in the field. -Bob bbrown@harper.cc.il.us #### #### Bob Brown - KB9LFR Harper Community College ## ## ## Systems Administrator Palatine IL USA #### #### Saved by grace From mythtech at Mac.com Fri Nov 30 12:22:04 2001 From: mythtech at Mac.com (Chris) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:11:40 2005 Subject: Any value to anyone Message-ID: >Ok, I think it's my turn to ask the obligatory > > "Where?" New Jersey... but I am retracting my offer on the 5160... I thought I already had an XT, but it turns out I have PCs and ATs, but no XTs, so after a brief scare when someone said they wanted it last night (turns out they really want an AT, so I am trying to arrange to give them one of mine), I am officially retracting the offer of the 5160 so I can round out my collection. The Intel branded 386 is still up for grabs. Along with the IBM ProPrinter and the Epson cut sheet printer thingy... and some 5.25 HD and DD drives. (Drives are known good, but I still haven't tested the printers yet) Sorry :( -chris From CLeyson at aol.com Fri Nov 30 12:34:26 2001 From: CLeyson at aol.com (CLeyson@aol.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:11:40 2005 Subject: Wireless World Digital Computer - 1967 Message-ID: <66.183c5548.29392b32@aol.com> Hans Thanks for the WW reference. I must admit I had got the PE Digical calculator confused with another WW article also by B.Crank. Can't remember the title but it was a very simple logic analyzer using a scope as a hex display. I remember it used Ferranti DTL chips. Also remember reading the PE Digical calculator articles - I can still picture the calculator - a four function desk top machine full of TTL ! Chris Leyson -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20011130/c0d1027e/attachment-0001.html From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Fri Nov 30 12:36:21 2001 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (Allison) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:11:40 2005 Subject: History of Computing exam question Message-ID: <000c01c179cd$ea077b60$6b7b7b7b@ajp> Well for one the PDP-6 was a 36 bit machine that predated the PDP10. The PDP-7 was an 18bitter, and unix was devoped on it because they had one and not many other good reasons. Allison -----Original Message----- From: One Without Reason To: Tony Duell Cc: classiccmp@classiccmp.org Date: Friday, November 30, 2001 12:31 PM Subject: Re: History of Computing exam question > >I'm curious, Tony? Why the PDP-6 and not the PDP-7? Sure, the PDP-6 was >used in AI development, but UNIX was written on a PDP-7. > >Peace... Sridhar > >On Thu, 29 Nov 2001, Tony Duell wrote: > >> Here's my list. It's a bit disorganised, and doubtless some of the >> machines shouldn't really be there, but anyway. I am going to assume that >> this wonderful technology that can grab any machine from the past can >> also recreate a machine from the blueprints, even if it was never >> actually made. That way I can have the first machine on my list : >> > From rigdonj at intellistar.net Fri Nov 30 12:56:21 2001 From: rigdonj at intellistar.net (Joe) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:11:40 2005 Subject: Scrapping hardware to get it off the book In-Reply-To: <169.4d77135.2939190f@aol.com> Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20011130135621.007b2500@mailhost.intellistar.net> Sounds familar. Siemens was the company that shipped the disks back to the US from Germany! Joe At 12:17 PM 11/30/01 EST, you wrote: >In a message dated 11/30/01 6:20:17 AM Pacific Standard Time, >rigdonj@intellistar.net writes: > > > must have cost them 50 times that to ship them back from Germany > > > The BIIN computers we scrapped were originally air freighted from Germany. >We opend the crates and took them apart. They were brand new, but Intel and >Siemens didn't want them out there. This was a certified destruction >contract otherwise I would have kept one. I already had all the SW. I bet >the cost to scrap ratio was more like 5000 to 1. Siemens lost a bunch of >money on that project. (Intel owned 5% and Siemens 95%.) > > Paxton > Astoria, OR From rigdonj at intellistar.net Fri Nov 30 12:54:26 2001 From: rigdonj at intellistar.net (Joe) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:11:40 2005 Subject: Antron MST300 (was:RE: Up for Grabs: Intel ICE boxs and pods) In-Reply-To: <556916EBC364D511826400508B9A1ADE021911@cmlpdc.corporatemic rosystems.com> Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20011130135426.007ae100@mailhost.intellistar.net> If you mean Atron then yes I've heard of them. if fact, I was just searching for info on them this morning. I have two full length IBM PC style cards that are both marked "Atron", one plugs into an 8 bit ISA slot and the other plugs into a 16-bit ISA slot. The cards have a ribbon cable that connects them together at the top. One is marked "Master Break Trace" and the other is marked "Slave Break Trace". (looks like they're for an emulator). Both boards have a large male 3U type connector on the outside. I've posted a picture at . FWIW I pulled these out of an old 286 Compaq Deskpro. I wanted to get the drive but it was already gone :-( Joe At 05:13 PM 11/30/01 -0000, you wrote: >Speaking of chip testers has anyone come across the Antron company and their >testing equipment? Antron are still going and still selling test kit to the >likes of Compaq, but since they didn't reply to my email I'm assuming they >had no old documentation. > >Basically the MST300 is a 386 based PC with 2 extra ISA cards that interface >with the testing 'pods'. I've got pods for the 8086, 80286, 80386SX and DX, >Moto 68K and I'm still not sure what they were supposed to be testing! > >I'll post pix on Binary Dinosaurs when I get 'em taken :) > >-- >Adrian Graham, Corporate Microsystems Ltd >e: adrian.graham@corporatemicrosystems.com >w: www.corporatemicrosystems.com >w2: www.binarydinosaurs.co.uk (Online Computer Museum) > From dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com Fri Nov 30 13:05:09 2001 From: dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com (Douglas Quebbeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:11:40 2005 Subject: Scrapping hardware to get it off the books (RE: Is it a Lisa or Mac XL?!) Message-ID: <7A9BACCEF0171D4FB77019F5104CDD372259F2@jeffserver.tegjeff.com> > >Should I even bother going back and asking to see the stuff > >in the yard? Or, has this firm agreed not to resell anything > >(I'm kinda assuming that what's true for this guy is industry > >standard). > Well, I went by today to talk to the proprietor... Yes, they will be happy to sell the stuff they've got, if I see anything I want. The big, interesting box I saw from the street appears to be a UniSys terminal concentrator. At least it's full of boards with DB9's on it, so it somewhat reminded me of my Prime terminal concentrator. I did specifically ask about "boxes with switches and lights" and they indicated they had seen such things in the past. They further ventured that "no one is interested in that stuff" so I think I've got a live one, boyr and girls... If anyone's looking for a Unisys terminal concentrator or if you thknk that vox is something you want whatever it is, let me know. I'll be visiting them regularly to see what's new and what I missed on my brief visit. I'll post anything that seems worth posting. I'll not likely mention the plethora of Apple // and Mac stuff, since it's the same stuff I hear about being available everywhere. Regards, -dq From dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com Fri Nov 30 13:07:26 2001 From: dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com (Douglas Quebbeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:11:40 2005 Subject: History of Computing exam question Message-ID: <7A9BACCEF0171D4FB77019F5104CDD372259F3@jeffserver.tegjeff.com> > I would add: HP2000 timeshare system..widely used, often provided the > first exposure to computers that got many of us started in the field. I *think* I played my first computer game on the HP2000 (said game paper tape currently being in Jay West's hands for his HP2000). While I'll likely not ever find one, I'm axious to see a more fully-fleshed-out simulator (unless DIMH will run 2000 Access, in which case, I just need 2000 Access). -dq From rhblakeman at kih.net Fri Nov 30 13:36:09 2001 From: rhblakeman at kih.net (Russ Blakeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:11:40 2005 Subject: Ampro Littleboard problems.. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: The dark grey Teac units were mostly found in the Sanyo silver units, the MBC-55x series and I needed one last year and it took forever to locate what I needed. I took a blackfaced unit and used it but swapped some odd parts for a worthless grey faced unit to use the lever and faceplate from. Two drives combined equaled a good drive, spare black parts and one DOA in the scrap barrel. -> I've got a huge box full Teac FD-55 drives somewhere. I think they all -> have the gray faceplate/levers instead of black or ivory. All of those -> drives were pulls from working equipment, so I think they are all in -> working order. I might be willing to get rid of just a few of -> these later, -> once I get everything moved into the new shop ;) -> -> -Toth -> -> From dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com Fri Nov 30 13:48:20 2001 From: dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com (Douglas Quebbeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:11:40 2005 Subject: Antron MST300 (was:RE: Up for Grabs: Intel ICE boxs and pods ) Message-ID: <7A9BACCEF0171D4FB77019F5104CDD372259F5@jeffserver.tegjeff.com> > If you mean Atron then yes I've heard of them. if fact, I was just > searching for info on them this morning. I have two full length IBM PC > style cards that are both marked "Atron", one plugs into an 8 bit ISA slot > and the other plugs into a 16-bit ISA slot. The cards have a ribbon cable > that connects them together at the top. One is marked "Master Break Trace" > and the other is marked "Slave Break Trace". (looks like they're for an > emulator). Both boards have a large male 3U type connector on the outside. This looks like a later version of the Atron Debugger I used in a Zenith Z-150 (I still have the Zenith). It had its own debugger software, it plugged into an available slot, had a ribbon cable that plugged into the 8088, and a place to put the 8088 you removed from the CPU board (the 8088 was on a separate CPU board in the Zenith). I'll have to go bug my former employer (15 year ago) and see if he still has it and wants to let go of it, along with perhaps the Zilog REO Development System and the IMSAI 8080 he had...). -dq From mythtech at Mac.com Fri Nov 30 14:02:07 2001 From: mythtech at Mac.com (Chris) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:11:40 2005 Subject: Scrapping hardware to get it off the books (RE: Is it a Lisa or Mac XL?!) Message-ID: >I'll not likely >mention the plethora of Apple // and Mac stuff, since >it's the same stuff I hear about being available everywhere. If you could give a cursory mention (at least to me) about the gist of the stuff, that would be great. (I don't expect a full mention, but concepts like "there were some classic Macs there, and some boards for Apple IIs that look like serial cards"). Just so I have an idea, as it seems, around here, no one has old Apple or Mac parts (the machines are available out the ass, but the extras are slim pickings). Thanks -chris From Innfogra at aol.com Fri Nov 30 14:22:34 2001 From: Innfogra at aol.com (Innfogra@aol.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:11:40 2005 Subject: Any value to anyone Message-ID: In a message dated 11/30/01 10:32:21 AM Pacific Standard Time, mythtech@Mac.com writes: > The Intel branded 386 is still up for grabs. It is too far away for me. If it is an Intel 301 it is worth saving. It came from Intel at a time they considered trying to break into the PC market. It is a classic machine in it's own right. They gave up the PC market right after this, it is a one and only. It was also very well made. Paxton Astoria, OR -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20011130/c02c6bed/attachment-0001.html From DAW at yalepress3.unipress.yale.edu Fri Nov 30 14:43:13 2001 From: DAW at yalepress3.unipress.yale.edu (David Woyciesjes) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:11:40 2005 Subject: Scrap hardware finds Message-ID: <9011A52E011ED311B4280004AC1BA6150146730B@yalepress3.unipress.yale.edu> Hey, I might be interested in the Mac stuff too. Maybe I'll ask Dan Sch.... to hot-rod it for me ;) --- David A Woyciesjes --- C & IS Support Specialist --- Yale University Press --- mailto:david.woyciesjes@yale.edu --- (203) 432-0953 --- ICQ # - 905818 ! -----Original Message----- ! From: Chris [mailto:mythtech@Mac.com] ! Sent: Friday, November 30, 2001 3:02 PM ! To: Classic Computer ! Subject: RE: Scrapping hardware to get it off the books (RE: Is it a ! Lisa or Mac XL?!) ! ! ! >I'll not likely ! >mention the plethora of Apple // and Mac stuff, since ! >it's the same stuff I hear about being available everywhere. ! ! If you could give a cursory mention (at least to me) about ! the gist of ! the stuff, that would be great. (I don't expect a full mention, but ! concepts like "there were some classic Macs there, and some ! boards for ! Apple IIs that look like serial cards"). ! ! Just so I have an idea, as it seems, around here, no one has ! old Apple or ! Mac parts (the machines are available out the ass, but the extras are ! slim pickings). ! ! Thanks ! ! -chris ! ! ! From dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com Fri Nov 30 14:48:46 2001 From: dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com (Douglas Quebbeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:11:40 2005 Subject: Scrapping hardware to get it off the books (RE: Is it a Lisa or Mac XL?!) Message-ID: <7A9BACCEF0171D4FB77019F5104CDD372259F7@jeffserver.tegjeff.com> > If you could give a cursory mention (at least to me) about the gist of > the stuff, that would be great. (I don't expect a full mention, but > concepts like "there were some classic Macs there, and some boards for > Apple IIs that look like serial cards"). I saw a pair of 5.25 inch floppy units; the top of either a Mac Classic or an SE (a Classic, I think); the backside of either a IIcx, IIci, or Quadra 700; Extended Keyboard IIs; There was a SuperMac monitor, smaller than the 19inch Radius I've got, but the bug mentioned a "huge" one in back. Since I pulled two //e from outside their firm last week, I'm somewhat loaded-up; I only need to get one working (which may involve nothing at all), and both units had serial boards; one was Apple-orginal, the other 3rd-party. I should mention that I'm heavily laden with Macs, having been the repository of all the ones we used to have here at our firm. Whatcha need? I could spare at least one or more of the following: Quadra 605 (LCII form factor) Quadra 650 Quadra 700 Mac IIci I have Extended Keyboard IIs, and maybe one or two of either the smaller keyboard and/or the split keyboard. Not sure if I have any working mice I can spare... Drive capacties would be from 80MB to 170MB... Regards, -dq From gehrich at tampabay.rr.com Fri Nov 30 15:22:58 2001 From: gehrich at tampabay.rr.com (Gene Ehrich) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:11:40 2005 Subject: Off Topic - stereo to PC question In-Reply-To: <9011A52E011ED311B4280004AC1BA6150146730B@yalepress3.unipre ss.yale.edu> Message-ID: <4.3.2.7.2.20011130162018.00b04810@pop3.norton.antivirus> Can anybody tell me how to attach my stereo to my PC so that I can transfer from Cassette to CD-R or hard-drive. From mythtech at Mac.com Fri Nov 30 15:24:31 2001 From: mythtech at Mac.com (Chris) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:11:40 2005 Subject: Any value to anyone Message-ID: >If it is an Intel 301 it is worth saving. It came from Intel at a time they >considered trying to break into the PC market. It is a classic machine in >it's own right. They gave up the PC market right after this, it is a one >and >only. It was also very well made. There is no front label on it, but on the back it has an Intel sticker. The only thing I can find to really ID it is a Product Number (PS302254F4). There are some serial numbers, but nothing else very useful as far as what it is. Maybe based on that prod# it is a "302"? (if there is such a thing). Alas, classic or not, I am not a huge PC collector. I am into Apple stuff, I only really wanted my XT because I had an IBM PC, which is the first "PC" by them, and I had an AT, so the XT just rounded it out... I killed my XT/286, so I lost that already :-( So an "Intel" unit doesn't have any value to me. If however it is a "classic" that might be of interest to others, I might consider shelving it for a future swap meet (if one ever occurs up my direction). But that will all depend on how much shelf space I have to spare. Most likely however, if there are no takers on this list, I will strip it for parts, and pitch the carcass. -chris From DAW at yalepress3.unipress.yale.edu Fri Nov 30 15:34:05 2001 From: DAW at yalepress3.unipress.yale.edu (David Woyciesjes) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:11:40 2005 Subject: Scrapping hardware to get it off the books (RE: Is it a Lisa or Mac XL?!) Message-ID: <9011A52E011ED311B4280004AC1BA6150146730C@yalepress3.unipress.yale.edu> ! I saw ... a SuperMac monitor, smaller than the 19inch ! Radius I've got, but the bug mentioned a "huge" one in back. Really? Any idea if they work, and what shipping to CT (06520-9040) might be? ! I have ... and/or the split keyboard. Cool. That is a neat piece of Mac history. How much? --- David A Woyciesjes --- C & IS Support Specialist --- Yale University Press --- mailto:david.woyciesjes@yale.edu --- (203) 432-0953 --- ICQ # - 905818 From mythtech at Mac.com Fri Nov 30 15:51:22 2001 From: mythtech at Mac.com (Chris) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:11:40 2005 Subject: Scrapping hardware to get it off the books (RE: Is it a Lisa or Mac XL?!) Message-ID: >I should mention that I'm heavily laden with Macs, having >been the repository of all the ones we used to have here >at our firm. Whatcha need? I could spare at least one or >more of the following: > > Quadra 605 (LCII form factor) > Quadra 650 > Quadra 700 > Mac IIci > >I have Extended Keyboard IIs, and maybe one or two of >either the smaller keyboard and/or the split keyboard. Humm... I have been hunting for a multi ethernet capable 040 for a while (so the 650 or 700 would work), to replace my IIsi with SCSI ethernet firewall/router... but I recently ran into a problem with the 68k version of IPNetRouter, and am thinking of going to a PPC with it. What are you looking to get for either a 650 or a 700? Also, if by the "split keyboard" you mean the short lived ergonomic keyboard apple offered, that would be cool. I can use it in place of my current keyboard and see if it helps me any. Where are you located? (just to get an idea of shipping possibilites... I can already rule out things like monitors, too hard to safely ship unless it is one that I just HAVE to have). As far as things I am actively LOOKING for... I want a 660AV, a MacTV, 20th Anniv Mac, Lisa (obviously), and an Apple TV Tuner card with remote. But I will take anything Apple related that people will just give me (although not everything stays with me, better useable macs get given out to people that can't afford a computer... for instance, the Classic II I got from David I am giving to someone for Xmas that has no computer, the kid can at least use it for writing school papers, checking email, basic web browsing, and playing some games... it is a step ahead of the nothingness he can use right now). -chris From DAW at yalepress3.unipress.yale.edu Fri Nov 30 15:59:02 2001 From: DAW at yalepress3.unipress.yale.edu (David Woyciesjes) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:11:40 2005 Subject: Off Topic - stereo to PC question Message-ID: <9011A52E011ED311B4280004AC1BA6150146730D@yalepress3.unipress.yale.edu> It all depends on whether or not the soundcard in your PC has a line-input connector. If it only has a mic input, you might get away with connecting to that, but be careful about the levels... --- David A Woyciesjes --- C & IS Support Specialist --- Yale University Press --- mailto:david.woyciesjes@yale.edu --- (203) 432-0953 --- ICQ # - 905818 ! -----Original Message----- ! From: Gene Ehrich [mailto:gehrich@tampabay.rr.com] ! Sent: Friday, November 30, 2001 4:23 PM ! To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org ! Subject: Off Topic - stereo to PC question ! ! ! Can anybody tell me how to attach my stereo to my PC so that ! I can transfer ! from Cassette to CD-R or hard-drive. ! From pgentil1 at twcny.rr.com Fri Nov 30 16:03:34 2001 From: pgentil1 at twcny.rr.com (philip gentile) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:11:45 2005 Subject: Off Topic - stereo to PC question References: <4.3.2.7.2.20011130162018.00b04810@pop3.norton.antivirus> Message-ID: <012701c179ea$dee43350$ee7ca118@cheese> hi - teh best way would be to run the "line outputs" from your amp to the "line inputs" on your pc sound card. most home grade amps don't have line outputs. if you can hadnle some distortion, you can run speaker outputs into the "line input" on your pc sound card. you would end up with a better recording if you used a small matching transformer, such as an 8 ohm to 1k or so, between the speaker output and line input to at least try to come close to the "line input" input impedance. you will need two transformers to do this. the "line input" on pc sounds are 1/8" stereo jacks that you can buy at radio shack. does this help ? philip j gentile 1035 smith ridge road bridgeport, ny 13030 315.476.7859 voice 315.476.7865 fax ----- Original Message ----- From: "Gene Ehrich" To: Sent: Friday, November 30, 2001 4:22 PM Subject: Off Topic - stereo to PC question > Can anybody tell me how to attach my stereo to my PC so that I can transfer > from Cassette to CD-R or hard-drive. > > From csmith at amdocs.com Fri Nov 30 16:03:55 2001 From: csmith at amdocs.com (Christopher Smith) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:11:49 2005 Subject: Off Topic - stereo to PC question Message-ID: <3B55D7F383B0D31197D9009027541CBF1170DF0B@cmiexch1.cmi.itds.com> I suppose you've tried connecting the line out on the stereo to the line in on the peesee? :) That is the normal way ;) Seriously, it's not difficult. The cable should look something like this: -)......................... |_--------------------- ... ..|....>--- . |____| -)..................... | |_--------------------- Where -) is an RCA plug, the outer shield on the plug is ground, and the pin is signal. >--- is a 1/4 inch headphone style plug. The bottom-most segment is ground, and the top two are signal, I think. Connect each RCA signal wire to its own signal segment on the 1/4" plug, and the grounds to the ground. This is straight from memory, but I think that's the way it works. Sorry I can't tell you which segment to use for left and which for right. You should also be able to buy prefabricated cables at radio shack or somewhere if you like. Chris Christopher Smith, Perl Developer Amdocs - Champaign, IL /usr/bin/perl -e ' print((~"\x95\xc4\xe3"^"Just Another Perl Hacker.")."\x08!\n"); ' > -----Original Message----- > From: Gene Ehrich [mailto:gehrich@tampabay.rr.com] > Sent: Friday, November 30, 2001 3:23 PM > To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org > Subject: Off Topic - stereo to PC question > > > Can anybody tell me how to attach my stereo to my PC so that > I can transfer > from Cassette to CD-R or hard-drive. > From dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com Fri Nov 30 16:04:05 2001 From: dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com (Douglas Quebbeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:11:49 2005 Subject: Scrapping hardware to get it off the books (RE: Is it a Lisa or Mac XL?!) Message-ID: <7A9BACCEF0171D4FB77019F5104CDD372259F9@jeffserver.tegjeff.com> > ! I saw ... a SuperMac monitor, smaller than the 19inch > ! Radius I've got, but the bug mentioned a "huge" one in back. > > Really? Any idea if they work, and what shipping to CT (06520-9040) might > be? I gotta take an afternoon off to tour the whole facility, maybe next week? (they're closed weekends). > ! I have ... and/or the split keyboard. > > Cool. That is a neat piece of Mac history. How much? Well, Shreve Systems bought a stack of them from me at $35 each... I'm not even positive I kept more than one, but I'll check. -dq From dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com Fri Nov 30 16:32:25 2001 From: dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com (Douglas Quebbeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:11:49 2005 Subject: Scrapping hardware to get it off the books (RE: Is it a Lisa or Mac XL?!) Message-ID: <7A9BACCEF0171D4FB77019F5104CDD372259FA@jeffserver.tegjeff.com> > Humm... I have been hunting for a multi ethernet capable 040 for a while > (so the 650 or 700 would work), to replace my IIsi with SCSI ethernet > firewall/router... but I recently ran into a problem with the 68k version > of IPNetRouter, and am thinking of going to a PPC with it. Tried Vicom Internet Gateway? > What are you looking to get for either a 650 or a 700? Trade, hopefully; otherwise, I'll try to come up with a friendly price. > Also, if by the "split keyboard" you mean the short lived ergonomic > keyboard apple offered, that would be cool. I can use it in place of my > current keyboard and see if it helps me any. Dang, David spoke up first, and I'm not sure how many I have. I'll inventory everything this weekend... > Where are you located? (just to get an idea of shipping possibilites... I > can already rule out things like monitors, too hard to safely ship unless > it is one that I just HAVE to have). Clarksville, Indiana, the sunnier side of the Louisville KY metro area. > As far as things I am actively LOOKING for... I want a 660AV, a MacTV, > 20th Anniv Mac, Lisa (obviously), and an Apple TV Tuner card > with remote. TAM is also on my want list; I am passing on a Lisa that's a stone's throw away, because the guy won't wait two weeks for payment. OTOH, he did say he might have another one soon... I have an 840AV, but only one, and I think the motherboard is flaky (Shreve Systems sells 840AV mobos for about $100). > But I will take anything Apple related that people will just give me > (although not everything stays with me, better useable macs get given out > to people that can't afford a computer... for instance, the Classic II I > got from David I am giving to someone for Xmas that has no computer, the > kid can at least use it for writing school papers, checking email, basic > web browsing, and playing some games... it is a step ahead of the > nothingness he can use right now). The eventual goal is to pare down the pile I've got into no more than one each of whatever I want to keep. But right now that feels *so* much like work... -dq From healyzh at aracnet.com Fri Nov 30 16:36:30 2001 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:11:49 2005 Subject: Off Topic - stereo to PC question In-Reply-To: from "Gene Ehrich" at Nov 30, 2001 04:22:58 PM Message-ID: <200111302236.fAUMaUp11081@shell1.aracnet.com> > Can anybody tell me how to attach my stereo to my PC so that I can transfer > from Cassette to CD-R or hard-drive. A couple of us on the list have Mac's that are setup as "Digital Audio Workstations" that can do this. Basically you need a good soundcard and some good software. Don't mess with the free junk that ships with the Adaptec CD burning software, it's just that, junk! For software I'd start by looking at Arboretum RayGun at http://www.arboretum.com/, they've got a demo you can download. I use a combination of RayGun and Bias Peak on a Echo Products Darla24 soundcard. I've dedicated my old PowerMac 8500/180 to this, though hopefully one of these days I'll be able to move it to a souped up 9500 or 9600. There are simular solutions for Windows based PC's. Zane From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Nov 30 16:42:46 2001 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:11:49 2005 Subject: Is it a Lisa or Mac XL?! In-Reply-To: <3C077811.EC21ABDE@verizon.net> from "Ian Koller" at Nov 30, 1 07:14:09 am Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 724 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20011130/46a0aa91/attachment-0001.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Nov 30 16:34:30 2001 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:11:49 2005 Subject: History of Computing exam question In-Reply-To: <3C06A1E5.4F6DB6E2@jetnet.ab.ca> from "Ben Franchuk" at Nov 29, 1 02:00:21 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1066 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20011130/f0f4cd3d/attachment-0001.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Nov 30 16:38:31 2001 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:11:49 2005 Subject: Wireless World Digital Computer - 1967 In-Reply-To: <3C0738DF.8080307@aconit.org> from "Hans B Pufal" at Nov 30, 1 08:44:31 am Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 902 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20011130/0a46972e/attachment-0001.ksh From mythtech at Mac.com Fri Nov 30 17:40:56 2001 From: mythtech at Mac.com (Chris) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:11:49 2005 Subject: Scrapping hardware to get it off the books (RE: Is it a Lisa or Mac XL?!) Message-ID: >Tried Vicom Internet Gateway? I am loyal to Sustainable Softworks because their support is really really good. (although, they no longer really support the 68k version of IPNR, and supposedly the PPC version will fix my problem, but since it is just an issue getting DNS passed thru to Win95, it isn't a big priority for me) >Trade, hopefully; otherwise, I'll try to come up >with a friendly price. Well, what are you looking for? (Other than a TAM like me). I have odds and ends, maybe I have something you want. (I have some Apple II stuff, and lots of Mac stuff, and a bunch of PC stuff that I am aching to get rid of) >Dang, David spoke up first, and I'm not sure how many I have. >I'll inventory everything this weekend... Yeah, I already told him I would kick his ass for it if I had to... of course doing so would mean driving a few hours north to CT, which beh... just isn't worth it (got that dave... I-95 is the only thing keeping me from getting the keyboard... LOL) >Clarksville, Indiana, the sunnier side of the Louisville KY metro area. Too far to drive (well, not really, since I like road tripping, but my available time, and funds are too in demand right now to be able to kill a weekend heading out that way) >I am passing on a Lisa that's a stone's >throw away, because the guy won't wait two weeks for payment. OTOH, >he did say he might have another one soon... Wha?!? How much? I assume if you need him to wait a week, it will be out of my price range... but it is worth asking. >The eventual goal is to pare down the pile I've got into >no more than one each of whatever I want to keep. But >right now that feels *so* much like work... Yeah, that is my feeling towards my Plus and SE collection... too many to want to keep, but I refuse to throw them out. And until I can go thru and test them all, to make sure I have one good of each, I am afraid to give them away. -chris From vcf at vintage.org Fri Nov 30 17:50:55 2001 From: vcf at vintage.org (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:11:49 2005 Subject: Looking for CPT 9000 word processor Message-ID: I am looking for a CPT 9000 word processor, circa 1988. It has a page display and is based on an Intel 80286. I specifically need the monitor and video card, which is a proprietary 16-bit deal, but will take a complete system if need be. Please contact me privately if you've got one to sell or know where one might be. $50 finders fee! Thanks! Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org * Old computing resources for business and academia at www.VintageTech.com * From spectre at stockholm.ptloma.edu Fri Nov 30 18:58:13 2001 From: spectre at stockholm.ptloma.edu (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:11:49 2005 Subject: Scrapping hardware to get it off the books (RE: Is it a Lisa or Mac XL?!) In-Reply-To: <7A9BACCEF0171D4FB77019F5104CDD372259F7@jeffserver.tegjeff.com> from Douglas Quebbeman at "Nov 30, 1 03:48:46 pm" Message-ID: <200112010058.QAA08734@stockholm.ptloma.edu> > I should mention that I'm heavily laden with Macs, having > been the repository of all the ones we used to have here > at our firm. Whatcha need? I could spare at least one or > more of the following: > > Quadra 650 How much were you interested in for a Q650? What's in it? -- ----------------------------- personal page: http://www.armory.com/~spectre/ -- Cameron Kaiser, Point Loma Nazarene University * ckaiser@stockholm.ptloma.edu -- God is Real, unless declared Integer. -- Stan Sieler ----------------------- From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Fri Nov 30 17:26:33 2001 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (Ben Franchuk) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:11:49 2005 Subject: History of Computing exam question References: Message-ID: <3C0815A9.46F69425@jetnet.ab.ca> Tony Duell wrote: > > > > > Tony Duell wrote: > > rganised, and doubtless some of the > > > > > > [1] The PE Digical may be one of the first hobbyist calculators > > > (published 1972, all built from TTL chips), but it wasn't programmable. > > > Stick it on the list if you like. > > > > Got more details??? > > Sure, I've got all ten articles describing it. I think I posted rough > descriptions of the contents of each article to Classiccmp a couple of > years back. > > It was a 4 function desktop calculator. Display was those 7 segment > filament displays (thin filaments forming the segments, mounted in an > evacuated 'bulb'). About 10 digits, I think. It displayed -ve numbers in > 9's compliment notation (!). > > The 'data path' was TTL ICs on plug-in cards. It was digit-serial, and > did multiplication/division by shifting by digits and then repeated > addition/subtraction for each digit. > > The control section was a diode matrix ROM on a large piece of stripboard > in the bottom of the machine. Controlled by yet more TTL. > > 'PE', btw was the UK magazine 'Practical Electronics'. > > -tony While I don't expect to find DTL,RTL or even TTL nowadays you can still get the 7 segment filament displays. http://www.sphere.bc.ca/test/nixies.html#catalog -- Ben Franchuk --- Pre-historic Cpu's -- www.jetnet.ab.ca/users/bfranchuk/index.html From lance at costanzo.net Fri Nov 30 20:53:03 2001 From: lance at costanzo.net (Lance Costanzo) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:11:49 2005 Subject: History of Computing exam question Message-ID: <3.0.32.20011130185302.007e1e90@costanzo.net> At 12:08 PM 11/30/01 -0600, you wrote: >I would add: HP2000 timeshare system..widely used, often provided the >first exposure to computers that got many of us started in the field. My first intro to "real" computers: IBM's ITF (interactive terminal facility) timeshare system that ran on the 360/370 mainframes. Not widely used (I heard it was 10 installations worldwide), but must have been a huge development effort on the part of IBM. A scaled down locked down (but I did figure out how to crash it) TSO with Basic and PL/I programming langs. Changed my life, possibly for the worse, 25+ years ago. Hmm... Others I'd put on the list from personal experience: IBM/360 Early HP3000 (series I,II,III) PDP-11 Apple II IBM PC 5150 From mbbrutman at magnaspeed.net Fri Nov 30 21:29:33 2001 From: mbbrutman at magnaspeed.net (Michael B. Brutman) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:11:49 2005 Subject: Need "PC Mouse" driver for PCjr .. Message-ID: <3C084E9D.90103@magnaspeed.net> I have recently acquired a "PCjr Mouse" by Mouse Systems, and I am looking for a device driver for it. The mouse looks to be a slightly modified version of the "PC Mouse". The neat thing is that it is an optical mouse. :-) The standard MS Mouse driver doesn't find the mouse. The "CuteMouse 1.8" driver hangs the machine up. An old (1992) Mouse Systems driver hangs the machine up too. The Colorpaint cartridge works with the mouse without a driver, so at least I know the mouse works. Do I even need a driver? I imagine older software doesn't need a driver, but newer software would. Then again, on a machine this old I don't think I have much of a problem. I'd like to have a working driver that recognizes the mouse, just in case. Thanks, Mike From fdebros at verizon.net Fri Nov 30 21:59:52 2001 From: fdebros at verizon.net (Fred deBros) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:11:49 2005 Subject: Sun Optical mouse pad anyone? In-Reply-To: <00b301c13196$5933ffc0$aab1ff0a@cvendel> Message-ID: <000001c17a1c$a1b32630$6501a8c0@fred> OK, so there are type 4 (UV plus vis light) and type 5 (UV only) sun optical mice. Type 4 mice require a different optical pad than type 5. Type 4 mice are tricky because they have to be adjusted to the grid (parallel vs perpendicular) in order to work correctly. There is a ps file that prints the type 4 mouse pad grid on paper. Do I have to laminate that print, or print it on a transparency and glue that onto an aluminum foil or print it onto a reflective foil? Because my printed pad on plain paper don't work with type 4 mice. Sniff. I wonder why I find so many optical mice in the garbage here. Any advice? Fred From mcguire at neurotica.com Fri Nov 30 22:10:37 2001 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:11:49 2005 Subject: Sun Optical mouse pad anyone? In-Reply-To: Sun Optical mouse pad anyone? (Fred deBros) References: <00b301c13196$5933ffc0$aab1ff0a@cvendel> <000001c17a1c$a1b32630$6501a8c0@fred> Message-ID: <15368.22589.968837.281650@phaduka.neurotica.com> On November 30, Fred deBros wrote: > OK, so there are type 4 (UV plus vis light) and type 5 (UV only) sun > optical mice. You mean IR, not UV... > Type 4 mice require a different optical pad than type 5. > Type 4 mice are tricky because they have to be adjusted to the grid > (parallel vs perpendicular) in order to work correctly. > There is a ps file that prints the type 4 mouse pad grid on paper. > Do I have to laminate that print, or print it on a transparency and glue > that onto an aluminum foil or print it onto a reflective foil? > > Because my printed pad on plain paper don't work with type 4 mice. > > Sniff. I wonder why I find so many optical mice in the garbage here. I've used that ps file with Type 3 mice, and plain paper worked fine. Not sure what's up with the Type 4 mice. -Dave -- Dave McGuire St. Petersburg, FL From allain at panix.com Fri Nov 30 22:17:43 2001 From: allain at panix.com (John Allain) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:11:49 2005 Subject: Off Topic - stereo to PC question References: <4.3.2.7.2.20011130162018.00b04810@pop3.norton.antivirus> Message-ID: <006d01c17a1f$204a4e40$21fe54a6@ibm23xhr06> > Can anybody tell me how to attach my stereo to my PC so that > I can transfer from Cassette to CD-R or hard-drive. About being careful with those level controls... Amazing** to me was the way that MS engineered the volume control. On W98 (?95,?ME) are controls labelled for, among others, Line-In, Microphone, and Master Volume. These Do Not effect recording. There's a secret second control for that. Say Volume Control>Options>Properties>Recording. Of course this causes you to lose your playback level control. What they were thinking I don't know and I don't care. John A. **Horrified disbelief is more like it. From mythtech at Mac.com Fri Nov 30 22:25:09 2001 From: mythtech at Mac.com (Chris) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:11:49 2005 Subject: Need "PC Mouse" driver for PCjr .. Message-ID: <200112010425.WAA23402@opal.tseinc.com> >The mouse looks to be a slightly >modified version of the "PC Mouse". The neat thing is that it is an >optical mouse. :-) I had an optical mouse way back when with my Mac Plus... I bought it as a replacement for a broken mouse. I think it was made by A+ At the time, I hated it, you needed a special mouse pad for it to work, and it wasn't as accurate as the Mac Plus mouse, which made it even harder to draw. Just one of those things that I found interesting now that optical mice are all the rage. -chris From donm at cts.com Fri Nov 30 22:52:45 2001 From: donm at cts.com (Don Maslin) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:11:49 2005 Subject: Ampro Littleboard problems.. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Fri, 30 Nov 2001, Russ Blakeman wrote: > The dark grey Teac units were mostly found in the Sanyo silver units, the > MBC-55x series and I needed one last year and it took forever to locate what > I needed. I took a blackfaced unit and used it but swapped some odd parts > for a worthless grey faced unit to use the lever and faceplate from. Two > drives combined equaled a good drive, spare black parts and one DOA in the > scrap barrel. What are the actual differences betwixt the FD-54B and the FD-55B? From donm at cts.com Fri Nov 30 23:07:50 2001 From: donm at cts.com (Don Maslin) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:11:49 2005 Subject: Central Point Option Board (earlier non-ASIC version) chips In-Reply-To: <3CBB48EE@mail.totalise.co.uk> Message-ID: On Thu, 29 Nov 2001, Mark Knibbs wrote: > Hi, > > This is quite urgent. > > Can someone who has the earlier version of the Central Point Option Board > (also known as Copy II PC Option Board) please type up the part numbers of > all chips on the card? Or scan the card at a decent resolution so all chip > markings are legible. One assumes that you are referring to the Copyright 1986 units which lack the 64-pin proprietary chip as contrasted with the Copyright 1987 units which contained it. Okay, starting at top-left hand and reading horizontally, they are as follow: HD74LS112P HD74LS11P HD74LS153P DM74LS163AN SN74SO4N SN74LS393N SN74LS174 SN74LS163AN SN74LS174N HD74LS86P HD74LS163P SN7433N SN74LS174N HD74LS273P HD74LS14P HD74LS367AP HD74LS194AP HD74LS374P SN74LS133N HD74LS32P HD74LS194AP HD74LS374P Have fun! - don > I want to get datasheets for as many of the ICs on the card as possible. > Assuming some are not just simple TTL chips, the best place to look for these > would be the FreeTradeZone web site. As mentioned a few days ago, that will no > longer be accessible for free in a few days time. > > (I don't have an older Option Board yet. I want to get info on the ICs it uses > for a possible future reverse-engineering effort, to figure out how the card > works, and allow low-level disk-imaging software to be written.) > > > -- Mark > > From cmurillo at emtelsa.multi.net.co Fri Nov 30 23:12:59 2001 From: cmurillo at emtelsa.multi.net.co (Carlos Murillo) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:11:49 2005 Subject: Off Topic - stereo to PC question In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.2.20011130162018.00b04810@pop3.norton.antivirus> References: <9011A52E011ED311B4280004AC1BA6150146730B@yalepress3.unipre ss.yale.edu> Message-ID: <3.0.2.32.20011201001259.018ec10c@obregon.multi.net.co> At 04:22 PM 11/30/01 -0500, you wrote: >Can anybody tell me how to attach my stereo to my PC so that I can transfer >from Cassette to CD-R or hard-drive. Aha... I've been through that. I have 70's vintage cassette tapes that I thought I would one day own in vinyl or CD format. The rarest european works from that time have actually been reissued in CD. The american works were plainly forgotten, and I've had to go through the tape-to-soundcard (hiss)digitize process. Sigh... Get a good cassette deck; I hope that your tapes were recorded using Dolby C, or at least B. In either case, the high freq response is already lost, but during playback/recording, you might actually null out some high frq noise... now, what kind of audio outputs does your system have? line level or at least headphone level? Most sound cards accept line level audio; if your system can't output line level audio, you can build an easy T network for a headphone-to-line level conversion for each channel that will preserve as much S/N as possible.. -------------------------------------------------------------- Carlos E. Murillo-Sanchez carlos_murillo@nospammers.ieee.org From cmurillo at emtelsa.multi.net.co Fri Nov 30 22:55:22 2001 From: cmurillo at emtelsa.multi.net.co (Carlos Murillo) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:11:49 2005 Subject: History of Computing exam question In-Reply-To: <7A9BACCEF0171D4FB77019F5104CDD372259F3@jeffserver.tegjeff. com> Message-ID: <3.0.2.32.20011130235522.018e7b60@obregon.multi.net.co> At 02:07 PM 11/30/01 -0500, you wrote: >> I would add: HP2000 timeshare system..widely used, often provided the >> first exposure to computers that got many of us started in the field. > >I *think* I played my first computer game on the HP2000 >(said game paper tape currently being in Jay West's hands >for his HP2000). >-dq Talk about those times... I remember that the ibm 4381 system that we used at the time received batch jobs from an apple-II !!!! network! We would write progams using the UCSD pascal editor and then we could submit them for batch processing (including those dreaded OS360 jcl commands, with batch job data indicated by GO SYSIN specs.. argghh). No wonder I fell in love with UX when I first had access to it (ca. 1987). So much simpler and logical... ... but I've grown to respect VMS even if I have lots to learn about it. -------------------------------------------------------------- Carlos E. Murillo-Sanchez carlos_murillo@nospammers.ieee.org